open thread – July 19-20, 2019

by Alison Green on July 19, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Sunflower*

    For people who work in sales or account management- can you tell me what you like and HATE most about your job? I’m looking to switch from event planning for a professional services company (Ideally, I’m looking to work for a hotel brand doing global account management) and know I’m having ‘grass is greener on the other side’ syndrome. I want a job that offers more flexibility and is more focused on client interactions instead of spending my days working on checklists, logistics and chasing people down for stuff I need from them. I’m really burned out from my current field and I don’t want to make a jump before considering all the sides of a new role. TY!

    1. Hotel GM*

      If you don’t want to spend your days on logistics and chasing people down, then hotel global account management isn’t the way to go. You’ll constantly be hunting down people at the property (I’m guilty of this, I’ve got more to do than sales), and you may get everything set up only for locations to turn down the business, and you’ll have to shop around lots of locations and manage interactions between the clients, the hotels, and since hospitality is heavily franchised, a myriad of owners, many of whom are neurotic about their bottom line and giving out any sorts of discounts, even to corporate clientele.

      1. Media Monkey*

        i do account management on the advertising/ media side, and you will absolutely be chasing people down all the time! there is a client focus but there are a lot of negatives with that in terms of job flexibility (you have to be available when they need you). but it is great when you get good feedback from clients and know that they rely on you to make things run smoothly. i am very much a people person and my job is very peoplely!

    2. Emily K*

      My impression as a client who has a few different account managers with different vendors is that they always seem to have a lot of irons in the fire. The ones who have the right skills make it look easy but I’ve also had vendor account reps who rarely responded to emails in a timely fashion, wouldn’t deliver things on time or get back to me when promised without proactive reminders and follow-ups from me, and in meetings often seem to be looking at whatever we’re looking at for the first time with me instead of having reviewed it ahead of time to be prepared to speak about it and present it to me.

      From my outside perspective, it seems like what’s underlaying the poor communication and follow-through is that the rep is unable to prioritize/balance the work coming at them from all their clients – either because they don’t have the right project management/organizational/time management skills or because they have too many clients, or a combination of both. They are constantly in reactive/crisis mode, responding to whatever’s in front of them demanding attention in the moment instead of knowing when to set aside something low priority to focus on something high-priority or keep another project timeline on schedule. (I think part of the reason I can tell this is what’s going on is because that’s the mode I fall into when I have too many things on my plate, so I know what it looks like in other people.)

    3. hospitalitymarketing*

      I’ve worked for 3 different hotel companies in account management. It’s flexible but requires a fair amount of travel and I have long days since I work with so many properties.

      1. Sunflower*

        Did you like working at those jobs? I don’t see myself doing that long term but thought it would be an easier transition into sales and I have contacts in the industry. I travel a decent amount in my current job and don’t mind it.

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      I can’t speak towards hotel account management but can speak towards doing both SaaS sales and recruitment.

      I suppose the worst thing for folks would either be dealing with the rejection or the constant nature of needing to produce. While you can coast a little bit complacency can be fatal when it comes to sales as it can definitely be momentum based and when you’re doing well, you really want to try and hammer it. Also, depending on the way your comp is structured if you have a couple bad months, your potential earnings will take a hit which may mess with your mental state depending on what your finances are.

      To me, the best thing about sales is honestly the compensation relative to the level of education needed to succeed. I have a basic undergrad degree in Marketing from a middle of the road university and I’ve had years that have rivaled my friends who are far better educated than I am and are in much more ‘prestigious’ fields (law, medicine, finance). I’ve also found that sales can largely be immune to the office politics that seem to infect and drag people down, while there will always be situations of accounts being landed in questionable fashion, by and large if you can sell, you’re going to succeed. Also, for me anyway I’m extremely competitive and sales was a natural outlet for me to be able to still ‘keep score’ and control my own destiny.

    5. Seller of teapots*

      I’ve worked in sales for my whole career and right now lead a team of 25 reps. I love sales and I think there are lots of ways to be good at. (The stereotype of the used car salesman is not the only or the best way!)

      Think about the kind of strengths you have and what kind of sales job you’re looking at. Some sales cycles are really long (you’re working months to years to close the deal) —which relies on strong strategic and organizational skill—and others are all about the immediate close—which requires v strong interpersonal and sales skills.

      Also consider is it a job w a lot of prospecting/cold calling (high rejection, can be draining) or more account man agent (you have your customer base and you’re working on upselling them).

      I love sales because it always changes, its all about relationships, and I find that because it’s metrics based you get a lot more flexibility. It’s very clear if you’re hitting your numbers so (typically) folks don’t care as much about hours and if you wfh etc.

  2. job hunting parent*

    When unemployed, how much time per week do you think is the right amount to spend on your job search? I am looking for a new job after moving cross-country for my spouse’s job and have two small kids at home. I’m finding it hard to allocate enough time to the search and need to work out some child care options to give me time to focus on this other than when the kids are in bed and I’m exhausted from the day. I’m curious what people think is the right amount of time to spend on a weekly basis (excluding interviews, which I can easily get coverage for).

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Depends on how desperate you are to find something. In my case there was definitely a correlation between the number of applications I submitted and the number of offers. When I wasn’t hard-pressed, my goal was to send one application a week. Between finding a good opportunity and jumping through the application hoops, I usually spent two nights on this (one for searching, one for applying) maybe an hour or two each. But when I really needed to find something, I shifted my goal to try and apply for at least one thing every other day, which was probably taking me a few hours per night (so 10 hours a week). If I had been adding in-person networking to this, it could have been higher.

      1. job hunting parent*

        I wouldn’t use the word desperate, but I’m the higher earning spouse (or will be again, when I get a job) and we’re living with my parents in the meantime. So there’s a pretty good amount of urgency in my search!

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      I don’t think there truly is a “right” amount of time to spend job searching whether you’re already employed or not. I think as long as you’re looking for quality postings that align with what you want to do and are putting forth real effort to customize your resume and cover letters to those opportunities, you should be fine. When I was unemployed and job searching (and living at home with my mom), I was made to feel like I should be job searching eight hours a day, but I didn’t have 40 hours worth of job postings a week to go through. (I wasn’t qualified for much at the time.)

      1. Autumnheart*

        And when a person is well into their career and looking for higher-level positions, there won’t be 40 hours worth of postings to go through either. Same with being specialized, certain times of the year, etc.

        To me, the bulk of the job search effort goes into prepping your resume, making different versions of it, fine-tuning a cover letter and making different versions of that, setting up profiles on different job search engines and making sure your info is accurate, optimizing the LinkedIn profile, working on the portfolio if that is applicable.

        Once all that is done, though, then the rest is basically reading notifications about listings, applying, communicating with recruiters, and reading new postings, and that might only take an hour or two a day. It doesn’t take 8 hours a day to apply for jobs anymore for the same reason we don’t have to go find a copy of the actual printed phone book, newspaper or Yellow Pages to go look things up, mail paper resumes to a physical address, then hang around in the kitchen by the landline phone because otherwise nobody will know if it rings. All the 8-hours-a-day legwork has been eliminated by technology.

    3. MusicWithRocksInIt*

      I kept myself on a schedule of applying for one job a day. Pick out a job that fits you well, do research on the company and adapt a cover letter and resume to fit them well. Usually took anywhere from an hour to 90 minutes.

    4. Colette*

      I’d say an hour a day for looking at postings and applying. I’d also allocate some time for networking/volunteering if you can.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This is about what I spend. I have a cover letter template so I don’t have to create a whole new one every time. Low-level jobs don’t take much time at all. I sometimes just shoot a resume without bothering about a letter (yes, I do get responses).

        If I’m busy, I’ll bookmark stuff and come back to it later.

      2. SunnyD*

        I’ve found that, over time, LinkedIn has gotten pretty good at emailing me about jobs that fit pretty well.

        I keep job apps in a spreadsheet, incl text of the job listing, for piecing together who the heck is calling me. :)

        1. Colette*

          And I find LinkedIn terrible (because of my non-standard work history). When I’m job hunting, I rely on Peter’s New Jobs, which is a local job-posting aggregation service.

    5. B. J. Salinger*

      I don’t think there’s a ‘good amount of time.’ Ideally, you want to be applying to jobs that actually interest you and allocating the amount of time it takes to thoroughly completing applications and interviews which will vary depending on your field. If you’re not getting anything done, you may need to evaluate job hunting prior to the kids getting up in the mornings, during nap time, or when your partner gets home. Your situation sounds tough, but if you can ask friends or family to babysit for an hour or two so you can get something done, that may help. If you can outsource the job hunting, that’s also a possibility. Otherwise, the job hunting situation is tough for anyone — whether you have a full time job, caregiving responsibilities, etc., finding that time is challenging, but it must be done! Good luck!

      1. job hunting parent*

        I am very fortunate that I have built-in free child care (we’re living with my parents while we search and my mom doesn’t work). But I want to be cognizant of not taking advantage of her, at the same time acknowledging that it’s also in her interest for me to get a job! So I’m trying to figure out what is reasonable to ask of her. I could afford some paid care, but it would be awkward with my mom home, so I can’t really bring in a sitter. My older child does go to preschool a few days a week which helps.

        1. WellRed*

          Why not ask your mom what she thinks is reasonable and if there’s anything you can do to make it easier on her?

          1. job hunting parent*

            Well I think I need to start with figuring out what I need. If I ask her she’ll put the question back on me. From there I can talk to her, and can definitely work out some things to make it easier (for instance, the time my older child is in preschool works great because then she’s only watching the little one).

    6. Audiophile*

      While I don’t have kids, any time I’ve been unemployed I’ve tried to prioritize my job search (even when I’ve had a severance).

      Usually, I think, I’ve devoted 2-4 hrs a day to job searching. I give myself breaks, taking a lunch or going out for bit. As cliché as it sounds, I’ve treated it like a job.

      But, ultimately, you’ll have to find the right balance.

      Good luck!

    7. Moray*

      One thing to remember is that searching is much easier energy-wise than actually applying. I usually spend my exhausted time doing the searching off and on, and scheduling a set period of time just for applying. I then make sure my day/week allows me to rack up the energy and focus I need in time for application-period.

      1. job hunting parent*

        That’s a great point. I could identify jobs in the evenings, and use my child care time during the day to focus on actually applying.

        1. Moray*

          When I find something I’m interested in but aren’t going to apply to right away, I do try in the moment to come up with a sentence or two to put in my cover letter, or a tweak to make to my resume, and jot them down when I save the posting.

          Doing that tiny bit of work sort of helps my brain remember later that it’s worth applying to, and that as exhausting as job hunting and applications are, I can apply, and want to apply.

      2. Quinalla*

        Agreed on this, try to save your higher brain power and high focus activities for when you have child care for sure!

    8. Person from the Resume*

      I think 2-4 hours a day. You need to searching for the jobs to apply for and when you find one then there’s the application and resume and cover letter tailoring. Some days when you don’t find anything that fits, it will be a shorter day, but when you are ready to apply I think that can take 2-4 hours in and of itself so it may carry over to the next day.

    9. ABK*

      Since you’re unemployed, fairly urgently need a job and have free childcare, I’d allocate a half day everyday (so about 20 hrs per week), and use that time to find, arrange and attend networking meetings, as well as searching and applying for jobs. That time could also be used for interviews. I’m in business school right now and feel like I spend at least that amount of time on my job search.

      1. job hunting parent*

        That’s about where I’m landing. I might not need that time everyday but I think I do need good half-day blocks because it’s hard to do an hour here, an hour there. I also went to full-time business school and remember that search well! Good luck on your search!

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think that your parents won’t feel taken advantage at all if you’re having them look after the kiddos while you pour as much time as possible in the job search. I would work with them, what works best with their schedules. Say 1-2 hours daily. You’re job hunting, you’re not going out to daily dates or something! I think you may be worrying too much about that aspect.

      You should be dedicating the time you need to search the job boards or looking at the assorted companies who you’re aiming for, daily. It all depends in your job of course and what you’re targeted position is! I’m in accounting, so I sent out resumes daily for the most part when I was job searching. However if you’re in a specialized position that takes more digging to find openings, then I would give myself an hour or two to do the necessary research.

    11. Clementine*

      Is a portfolio relevant to your work? Make sure to allocate time for that if so. I would suggest 2-3 hours at-home searching and applying, and going to meetups and events and volunteer activities 2-3 nights per week.
      Your parents, I suspect, favor you taking time on your job search, because that heightens the odds of immediate success.

    12. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Well, I just signed on the Universal Credit, and they asked whether I was able to job search 35 hours a week…

      So I guess that’s the minimum in the UK

    13. BeeGee*

      Currently unemployed, and I personally have a hard time defining a specific amount of time to dedicate strictly to job searching/applying. I find that some days I just don’t have much luck on finding jobs that I am interested/a good fit for and other days I find several. I do find it useful to bookmark or save multiple jobs so I can work on applying to those on slow job search days and I can be more dedicated on adjusting my resume and cover letter for the role for each application.

      On that note, I have found that the best use of my “job searching” time is not in looking for roles but allocating enough time to a good application. It can be frustrating and exhausting to write cover letters and tweak resumes, but I feel more confident when I send these applications off rather than when I just mindlessly keep shoving my resume/cover letter out there.

    14. K*

      I found 3-hour chunks the most productive. And absolutely out of the house. As much as I adored my daughter crawling in to visit, it broke my concentration.

    15. Lynn Whitehat*

      When I’ve been unemployed, my rule was talking to someone about a job 3 times a day. Applying for a job counted. A phone screen or in-person interview counted. Attending a professional networking thing counted. Taking someone out for coffee or lunch could count if there was a reasonable chance it could lead to a job.

      That was enough to keep a good momentum going, without being overwhelming. And yeah, you do want to get childcare squared away. If you can barely find time to apply, it’s going to be really hard to get to an interview if you have to figure out childcare from scratch so you can go.

    16. Kathleen_A*

      Alison has addressed this from time to time, although she doesn’t provide a, you know, precise answer. Her basic message has consistently been that those people who tell you you that “Looking for a job is a full-time job” are just *wrong*. Hmmm, I know there’s a trick to including a link without flagging my post, but I can’t remember what it is. I’ll try including a couple of links in the posts that follow.

    17. it happens*

      Lots of good stuff already. 1. Make a regular time/place out of the house to do the hard stuff (writing) and 2. Start networking. Since you are new to the area (unless you works there before you and your husband moved away) you should be building connections who will point you toward the job openings before they are posted. Find meetups if you are in a field that has them, find alum from your schools and join whatever professional and/or women’s organizations that seem useful. Cuz people get people jobs. Good luck!

    18. MissDisplaced*

      Ok, so I’ve never felt you had to be at it for 8 hours a day as though it were your job.
      But that being said, persistence pays off.
      You have to see what works for you, whether that means 2 hours every morning or just 2 days per week. When I’m working and searching, I try to do this on Saturday for a few hours. Or, you could also aim to apply for say 2-3 jobs per day.

    19. Washed Out Data Analyst*

      When I was unemployed and had nothing else to do, I would try to spend a full work day (9-5) 4-5 days a week on my job search. But only a small portion of that time was me actually applying to jobs. I would say I sent an average of 4-5 applications a week, depending on what openings I found. The applications themselves would only take about 8-10 hours a week (say 2 hours per application).

      The other hours were spent doing side projects, taking online classes, meeting people for coffee, and doing some odd contract work here and there if I could get my hands on an assignment. I work as an analyst, so there is always some software I could be familiarizing myself with. It both kept me busy and kept my skills warm. It also gave me a healthy structure to my days so I didn’t go insane from having nothing to do, though I don’t think you will have that problem with 2 kids!

  3. Anony-miss*

    How do people build meaningful relationships in their work community? I feel like I’ve been very successful at networking and building casual contacts in various offices, but I don’t know that I feel like I have genuine relationships with folks. It feels especially hard because I want to be working in another functional area – I don’t want people to feel like I’m using them to get career mobility. I really want to form closer relationships with people in this functional area because it’s work that’s meaningful to me and I’d love to support people and have support with it. But I feel like I’m having a little bit of a professional “how to make friends as an adult” situation.

    1. Laika*

      How much interaction do you have with these folks on a day-to-day? If you see them fairly often or share an office, I think it makes it much easier to swing by and chat, but I could see it being a lot tougher to cultivate that if you’re not in such close proximity.

      1. Anony-miss*

        The people I’m interested in getting to know more are across campus from me (I work in higher ed) so it definitely makes it difficult to get to know them organically. I see them a handful of times throughout the year at events/programs related to the area I want to get more involved in but that’s usually it.

        1. Laika*

          Oh! That actually makes it a bit simpler, in my experience (eight years working in post-secondary). Coffee dates with folks from other departments are very common. You do need a plausible excuse to reach out–were they running a program when you saw them last year at X event that might help shed light on your current work? Are they involved in organizing Y event, and you might want to help out in some capacity?

          I do think in some way you aren’t able to get around the “transactional” feeling, because…that’s exactly what it is. But people aren’t, generally, opposed to it. And coffee dates are the perfect way to set that up, since everyone likes to stretch their legs and has a favourite coffee spot on campus. That kind of relationship-building is really useful in a higher ed context, so no one will give it a second thought.

        2. CC*

          I also work in higher ed and I ask people to coffee a lot, so I second Laika’s comment! I have found that being the aggressive coffee asker works out well for me. Also, I’ve gotten really close to people on writing retreats–so depending on what you do, definitely look into activities like that that are on-going.

        3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          The coffee date is a good suggestion. Or a walking “club” that meets to do a lap around campus, or a book club especially if the books are related to the area you want to get into (maybe ask them for suggestions or refer a book to them), plant club (succulents are really popular right now and I always enjoy trading cuttings with another plant hoarder). If you can find something that you have in common you can use that as a reason to meet up with or contact them via email more often. If they run a program where they need volunteers/submissions/donations, let them know proactively that you’re interested. If you’re waiting for a position to open up in their department in order to apply, be honest so they will maybe not only consider you but create a position for you.

        4. SunnyD*

          Those are two separate questions.

          1) How do I make closer work friends?
          There are good tips below, but the crux of it is, invite folks to coffee / lunch and they’ll likely show up.

          2) How can I get comfortable actually using my network?

          This is something women especially do, and it isn’t helpful. Men are (broadly) more comfortable with a casual transactional networking, without having to be buddies. Women make networks that have to be real, authentic, and deep… but then guiltily feel like they’re using that person. So I’d recommend you work on having a dude’s approach to benefiting from your network, and continue with making real connections.

          I’ll post a link after.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Ha! So all along I was networking like a dude? Interesting, lol. (That does ease my guilt though.)

          2. Amethystmoon*

            Joining an organization like Toastmasters helps, if you can find one at your workplace or nearby. I’ve made some very good friends within it, and have known them for over 5 years. There’s something about answering table topics questions that your club starts to feel like a family very quickly.

        5. LunaLena*

          I work at a university too, does yours have staff events (luncheons, retreats, etc) or committees that you can join, like a New Faculty/Staff Welcome Committee or Event Planning Committee? The staff events I go to generally encourage people to sit with folks they don’t normally interact with, so it’s a great opportunity to network and learn more about what other resources are available on campus. I usually carry around some business cards in my ID holder and hand them out as needed. It’s usually pretty simple, just start with “so what does your department do?” and segue into “we do X, it sounds like you work with Y, could you help us out with that?” and “can I contact you and we can meet over coffee to discuss?”

          If it feels too mercenary or transactional, keep in mind that you’re all on the same team and working towards the same goal. Even if you’re doing this for your own career mobility, in the end everyone is working to make the school a better place and help the students to succeed, so it’s not completely for your own selfish reasons.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      I have no clue, so I’ll be following this thread closely, lol. Like you, I can network my butt off when I have to, but it’s obvious that my view of the situation is transactional. I haven’t encountered many people who seem to mind this though, so maybe it’s just in my head that this is a problem? I don’t know.

    3. Keyboard Cowboy*

      I flat-out told my team lead that having a social relationship with team members was important to my work happiness. He suggested a weekly board game lunch with our team, and that has helped a ton! (Of course this approach only works for local.) I don’t think you should underestimate the value of being explicit about what you need; lots of people feel the same but feel weird about saying it.

    4. Nott the Brave*

      My go-to is having lunch with folks. It doesn’t even have to be at a restaurant, if they’re busy. Lunch is a great way to hang out and form real connections with people you work with. They do need to be semi-local for this to work, though.

    5. Weegie*

      I don’t know that these kind of relationships CAN be ‘meaningful’ or ‘genuine’ – in my experience, if they’re based on networking rather than co-working on a project they are indeed ‘transactional’, as Fortitude Jones mentions below. And there’s nothing wrong with that! (I spent ages building up my network in my previous job, which I was in for 5+ years – then I left the field (thank goodness!) and I’ve kept in touch with not a single one of them. They no longer need me, and vice versa.)

      But two ways to make sure you perhaps stay in more regular contact and become a go-to person in the field are 1) join a relevant professional association, if there is one, and really get involved with it; 2) you mention ‘events’ in your reply to Laika – organise an event, ask some of the people you want to work with more closely to speak at it, plan the programme, help out, whatever. In the course of organising and running it you’ll become better known and will be in more regular contact with your fellow professionals. Plus you’ll be building your profile at the same time.

      1. Amethystmoon*

        It depends on how much you feel free to be yourself. If you only feel free to be your work self, then it’s not going to feel as genuine.

    6. Quinalla*

      I think you can build meaningful relationships with work connections, BUT, you also have to get comfortable with those relationships being transactional as well. It is still sometimes a bit uncomfortable for me, but honestly, but most work relationships are transactional and that is ok. But building a relationship is good because you build that trust which is good for both parties. And you can do this anyway you are comfortable. I take people to lunch, stop by and chat a bit (asking questions and listening is key!), send folks articles, etc. that might be of interest based on past interactions, joined work-related groups/organizations, formed group/organizations, organize events for the team, etc.

      Anyway, I very much value work relationships, it is one of the things that makes work meaningful for me, but I also have come to terms with the fact that those relationships are something where I can get something from them, they can get something from me or both. Ideally we can both help each other out, but it does change the nature of those relationships.

    7. merp*

      My area has a monthly happy hour for the profession I’m in and it has helped so much – everyone has a chance to share at the beginning if they are working on a project others could join, looking for job, posting a job soon, etc., followed by more low-key socializing.Would anyone you know be interested in that? You could get the ball rolling!

    8. LQ*

      Like others, I think it’s ok to feel like they are more transactional than feels good to you. But one of the things I like to encourage is positive gossip. If you can connect people with others that benefits you as well as them. But also just talking people up in front of others (do that genuinely) can really help relationships. Pretty broadly. It’s not something I think of as a transactional thing so it feels better to me to just tell someone that Mary is one of the best people and if you don’t know her that your life is less joyful than if you did. Or that Kelly is one of the most knowledgeable people in the program and I’ve never seen her stumped by a question. Once you start looking for opportunities to do this I find they are fairly frequent.

      The best time for this is if you are working with someone new and can take them around and introduce the to folks.

      Sally, this is Kelly who is incredibly knowledgable about the program, if you have questions, she’s the one. Kelly, this is Sally who is brand new and brings a vast amount of skill and knowledge around excel and she’ll be helping with the excel with excel work.

      This always feels like the least using a person and most genuine relationship budiling stuff I do.

      1. Emily K*

        The book “Give and Take” by Adam Grant goes into this extensively and found that the most successful people engage in this kind of referral-based networking. They only agree to take on projects in their own niche specialty area, where they can really contribute something that nobody else can, so they don’t burn out by taking on too much – but they also are avid networkers who are constantly making connections between people within their own network. “Thanks for thinking of me, Susan. This isn’t the right project for me, but I’d like to introduce you to Micah, who would do an amazing job with this.” As a bonus, not only did the referrer avoid burnout, both Micah and Susan feel slightly indebted to the referrer for connecting them, without which Susan may not have found a good candidate and Micah wouldn’t have the additional income from taking on the project, so later on if the referrer needs something, they can call in a favor owed instead of asking for one to be given.

      2. BethDH*

        I’m relatively new where I am but I’m finding myself in a position where I need to ask for networking help a lot more than I used to — a much larger pool of people with fewer organic connections — and I’m finding that asking someone I’m talking to for connections is also having a similar effect but from the other side! People like being useful in a relatively low-commitment way, so if they can introduce you to someone who can truly help with your job, that also helps cement your relationship with the person who helped you.

  4. Eillah*

    Currently resisting the urge to hurl something heavy at the head of a coworker (a man, of course) who agrees with that idiot candidate in Mississippi re: not being alone with a female reporter. Josie and the Pussycats soundtrack is not helping with the internal hype. Oop.

    1. Eillah*

      I guess now I have to…. pretend to be nice to him.

      /sunglasses on, explosion in background, etc etc

      1. Alternative Person*

        My favourite tactic for this type of co-worker is to blink as little as possible when speaking to them. They get very unnerved but can’t work out why.

        Also, remember the relaxation chant:

        Out with the anger, in with the feminism.

        1. Parenthetically*

          “Out with the anger, in with the feminism.”

          *snort* Yep this is my new mantra.

      1. Eillah*

        I only just learned that the soundtrack was added to Spotify a few days ago. A++++ shower belting album, underrated comedy classic.

    4. Utoh!*

      Yeah, this definitely why I *don’t* talk politics or religion or any other flaming topic at work. I don’t want to know what my coworkers think because inevitably there will be conflict. I tend to keep it all work at work.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This. Before the 2016 election, I made that mistake and a coworker I liked and respected said, “He speaks his mind!” I saw her in a completely different light after that. :\

        I do not, however, regret posting on the anonymous intranet suggestion box that people should not leave inflammatory tabloid material all over the break room. Upper management agreed and posted, “No electioneering at work.” Nor do I regret shoving said material in the giant trash bin.

      2. SunnyD*

        This isn’t politics, though, it’s “Hi, coworker! I’m an enthusiastic fan of discrimination against women and excluding them from paths to success! Awesome, right? Also, I think about your v@gina a lot and can’t trust myself alone around you because I’m thinking about sexing you instead of work. Ha, but not just you, I fondle all women in my head! Sexy sexy coworker women.”

        2. Kat in VA*

          Like we’re so GD radioactive that just being around us can mess them up.

          Tell me again, if men are so unable to control themselves, why do they run the world again?

          I find it astonishing that a measurable portion of 49% of the population despises and fears the other 51%.

          /bangs head/

      3. Sara*

        My (newly enacted) personal policy is now that I won’t talk about particular politicians/figures with coworkers. Certain issues (especially around things like human and civil rights) are a) too important and b) too intertwined with my work to be silent on politics completely, but this is the line that makes sense to me (not saying that’s true for everyone).

    5. DAMitsDevon*

      So, if he agrees with that candidate then does that mean he also doesn’t want to be alone with women? Seems like a perfect excuse to avoid talking to him (Oh, sorry Jim, looks like there’s no one else around and I know you can’t be unsupervised with a woman, so I’ll just head back to my desk ASAP to be safe). Seriously though, that kind of thinking sets a bad precedent for how to treat women in the workplace, though good on you for continually acting professional despite what I’d argue is a lack of professionalism on his behalf.

      1. Amethystmoon*

        That and if that person happens to be a manager, how is a woman subordinate supposed to get a good review? And how is that manager supposed to have any one-on-ones to give feedback? Generally, at least where I work, reviews are one-on-one. I would respond a lot less honestly if someone else was in the room.

    6. Mellow*

      “(a man, of course)”

      ————————————-

      Don’t you simply mean “(a man)” as a descriptive? Please qualify these things. Every single man in my life, from husband to father, brother, cousins, and uncles abhor that candidate’s words. Every single one. The “(a man, of course)” casts all men in the same light and that is unfair.

      1. Natalie*

        Are there a lot of women with “no meeting alone with female subordinates” policies that I’m unaware of?

      2. paperpusher*

        No, she means of course someone who shares those views is a man. Far fewer professional women share those views because they understand what it costs them.* That’s a completely different statement than “he’s a man, therefore he believes that.” All bugs are insects, etc.

        *There are definitely women who share them but I’m willing to go out on a limb and say it’s fewer.

        1. Ra94*

          Yes, and the women who share those views are very unlikely to be in the workplace or in advanced position, since it dovetails neatly with views about whether women should work at all.

          1. Sacred Ground*

            Well, there’s also women like Beverly LaHaye who have built an entire professional career out of telling women they should not pursue professional careers.

      3. Kat*

        Most people who think X are men =/= most men think X.

        Have’t heard any women speak out about these dangers, and why would they? We know it’s a great way to limit our career advancement. Correcting someone saying something perfectly valid sounds pretty condescending and obnoxious imo.

      5. Foreign Octopus*

        There is always one person and today, you’ve been that person.

        Thank you for your contribution to the really urgent #notallmen movement that is going around. Might I also interest you in #alllivesmatters and #meninism as your next helpful contribution to a discussion that doesn’t need clarification?

        1. Database Developer Dude*

          Food for thought, if this was a racially based discussion, and someone was complaining about “xyz was black, of course”, and someone (likely me) jumped all over that comment, it would be treated much differently.

          I get it. You’re asserting that saying those who do/think/act like X are men does not create the perception that all men do/think/act like X. You’re expecting all to take that as a given, and taking offense at those who don’t. Looking at it from their point of view, they’re afraid of being taken as automatically X just because they’re men…and just telling them “don’t feel like that” isn’t going to work.

          When I hear about a carjacking or a robbery I usually pray “please don’t be a black person”….because I know there’s going to be a subset of people who will hear about that and judge me personally by that standard because of the color of my skin. Why is it not okay for me to want to be judged by MY actions, and not considered sexist, a sexual harasser, or worse, a predator, just because of what hangs between my legs?

          And before you come out with the one poisoned M&M in the bowl analogy, save it. I get that. I don’t approach strange women at night, and I’m hyper aware of my surroundings. I’m not trying to pose a danger to anyone. It just gets tiring at times to know that no matter how much I act right, I’m still going to be casually dismissed as a sexist, misogynist or worse, just because I’m a man. Not that I agree with the meninists…but I can see where they take the view to the extreme…..

      1. Kathleen_A*

        Yes, there have been a couple of threads (that I can remember, at least) about women who had various levels of discomfort around being alone with a male coworker. I don’t think they reached Pence levels, but there was some discomfort. Long car trips were one area at issue, as was going out to lunch (where, BTW, you wouldn’t actually be alone). Oh, well.

        1. Lepidoptera*

          Yeah but there’s a difference between “I fear for my physical/emotional/etc. safety” and “I’m afraid that I can’t control myself and others (including my spouse) will believe and do believe that I can’t control myself if I’m alone with a person of a different sex”
          One is safety and backed up by statistics and one is not defensible in the same way at all.

          1. Librarian of SHIELD*

            It’s not even that they don’t think they can control themselves and are afraid they’ll accidentally have an affair. The people who hold to this policy usually say they do it to keep from being *wrongfully accused* of sexual assault. They do it because they think women are liars who super enjoy the publicity that comes with accusing a powerful man of assault. Because getting death threats online and having people reveal your home and work addresses to all the world and being afraid every moment of every day sounds super fun, I guess?

            In case anybody who’s reading this thinks that women frequently make false assault allegations for the popularity: This is not a thing that ANYBODY wants to be famous for.

        2. SunnyD*

          Right… But the difference there is being worried about BEING raped or slandered*, vs DOING rape.

          (Not that they consider women to be people enough to consider it that – they’re just objects of temptations for men.)

          *In that way that, of a male-female couple being gossipped about, generally only harms women.

        3. Kathleen_A*

          I didn’t mean to imply they were exactly the same thing – and I do agree that the Pence Maneuver is more common to men than to women. I’m sorry that I was unclear.

          But there definitely are women (not me!) who do practice the Pence Maneuver – and for pretty much the same reason as Pence and Co., which is that they believe there is something fundamentally wrong with a married person being alone with another adult of the opposite sex.

          I am reeeeeeally not a fan of Pence (I live in Indiana – in his old congressional district, in fact – so I know him of old), but amusing as it is to think of the Pence Maneuver (better known as the Billy Graham Rule, BTW) as being some sort of check on sexual abandon, I truly don’t think he follows this rule because he’s afraid he can’t control himself. I think he just thinks it looks questionable from a sexual morality perspective – Caesar’s husband, so to speak. :-) I don’t know his wife at all, but I suspect that he and she agree on this particular issue.

          Now, how he managed this back when he was a radio talk-show host or a low-ranking member of the House with a tiny little staff is something of a mystery. Maybe he didn’t. Maybe he only started this once he had a staff large enough to allow him the luxury of never being alone with female staff members. Or maybe not. He absolutely had and *has* some female staff members, I can tell you that.

    8. Cat Fan*

      Does this guy abide by that same rule? How does he a function at work with women who either report to him or work with him or even his boss?

    9. dealing with dragons*

      I enjoyed that the reason the dude was ok with being alone with gay dudes because he’s married

      /s

      1. Perpal*

        Can’t men and children also accuse/bring down careers? Just look at kevin spacy and michael jackson; can’t be alone with anyone, ever!!!

        1. Perpal*

          Wait, he actually said she had to be chaperoned by a man, specifically, not just “not alone”? Wow!

          1. LunaLena*

            Yeah, he told her that she would only be allowed to ride in his truck with him if she brought along a male colleague. You know, to supervise her, lest she falsely accuses him of rape. You know how those hysterical dames are.

    10. anon4this*

      Just treat him like the potential rapist/out-of-control neanderthal he’s identifying with.

      1. voyager1*

        Okay y’all are probably call me crazy but here goes. Oh I am a man too, because that kinda matters here

        Whenever I hear a guy say he can’t be alone with a women at work, I don’t think anything sexual is going on.

        I just assume the guy thinks that woman are all liars when it comes to sexual harassment and that woman use that to blackmail men to get promotions etc. They think women use it as a tool. Which is crazy because nobody is going to go through what a victim goes through just for a promotion.

        So here is the thing, if the guys think that is a tool then they are telling you that they would use anything to get a promotion or role etc. It gives me pause to think about what they have done to others to get where they are. How many folks thrown under the bus, or lied about or lied too etc.

        Anyway that is my takeaway. Coming from a guy who is chilled to the bone by this “can’t work with women” crap other men play.

        1. Amethystmoon*

          Woman don’t generally use it as a tool. Honestly, anything I’ve ever experienced with sexual harassment has only happened once at work, and that coworker is no longer there (though due to other circumstances). We know the managers will think we’re chicken little if we use it all the time.

          1. Librarian of SHIELD*

            Reasonable people know this. The a-holes who subscribe to the Pence rule do not.

  5. Qwertyuiop*

    I’ve been in my job for about a month and I feel as though they watch me carefully. I go through my purse to either trim a hang nail or put on some lip gloss. I don’t want them thinking I’m stealing something, but I just sort of do my own thing. I noticed a coworker watching me as I was doing this.

    Another time I was working on the computer and my coworker was talking to me and all of a sudden, she just snapped her head and looked at me screen. I was working so I wasn’t goofing off, but I feel like they have trust issues or something.

    Is this normal? Should I say something like, “Oh, my lips are dry so I’m putting on lipgloss.”

    I’m just unsure of if it’s me or if I’m doing something to make them suspicious of me. Any thoughts?

    1. Zephy*

      I think a lot of this is probably in your head; IME, nobody is paying as much attention to you as you think they are. Your coworker’s sudden head-turn could have been for anything – maybe she heard a noise, maybe a bug flew past her face. Since you aren’t actually doing anything wrong, you don’t actually have anything to worry about. I wouldn’t preemptively explain why you’re putting on lipgloss or filing a nail; chances are good that nobody was wondering to begin with.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Not normal. Kind of weird. Maybe say “was there something you needed?” or (if you can say it nicely) “what are you looking at?”

    3. KR*

      The head snap could be anything. I think next time you could say something like, “oh yeah look at this work order wakeen sent over” or “oh did you see a bug or something?” Or it could be that your monitor is haunted who knows.

      I wonder if your coworkers just don’t know you very well and are looking at what you’re doing because it’s not familiar to them. I wonder if your purse is really big compared to your body or has an interesting pattern or maybe you just have an unusual way of holding it.

      You probably aren’t doing anything wierd or suspicious. I know the feeling though.

    4. Not Elizabeth*

      It doesn’t sound like you’re doing anything too suspicious, but who knows, maybe your coworker has a problem with any grooming being done in the open, and maybe something on your screen caught her attention out of the corner of her eye. When you notice something like this happening, you could say something neutral like, “Oh, did you need something from me?”

    5. NomdePlumage*

      Sometimes eyes are naturally drawn to movement or noise, imagined or otherwise. If it’s a stare-down, that’s another matter. You can always just give them the biggest cheese grin you can muster until they look away… what are they going to do, complain about you smiling at work?

      1. Aquawoman*

        This. I have ADHD and if anything moves, especially in peripheral vision, it immediately gets my attention. If something flashed on the screen, I’d turn my head too. Come to think of it, this may apply to the rooting around in the purse, just movement attracting attention.

          1. Jaydee*

            There is a website I use regularly that has a banner with images that change occasionally but are very similar and consistent (think greyscale images of buildings and architectural features). I CANNOT just leave this page up on my screen because I will see the flicker as the image changes and wonder what in the world just flashed on my screen and it will distract me dozens of times before I figure it out.

            Did it again today while on a conference call. Out of the corner of my eye, I see and look up…nothing there. A few minutes later, and I try to stay focused. A few minutes later, and I remember “Oh, right! The banner changes!”

        2. Fiberpunk*

          That’s what I thought. I sometimes glance at people’s screens while I’m talking to them. In my office the furniture is almost all set up so they spin their chair around when I go in their office, and I’m facing their screen. Things will pop up, it’s momentarily distracting.

        3. Emily K*

          Same here. There is a window next to my desk that overlooks my side yard with a fence, and some days I turn sharply to look out the window multiple times an hour because a squirrel is running back and forth along the fence and it catches my attention in my peripheral vision every single time.

          1. NomdePlumage*

            One time I had an interview next to a window and there was a bird on the sill. I almost tanked the interview because all I could think was “Don’t look at the bird. Don’t look at the bird.”

            I looked at the bird.

            But I still got the job! That bird is now my best friend (even though he’s not aware of it).

        4. Autumnheart*

          The SQUIRREL! effect? Yeah, same here. It was awful when my cube was adjacent to the main aisle and I didn’t have a separator to kind of wall off the view. Every. Single. Time. someone walked by (so, like every 15 seconds ffs) it would divert my attention. Now I sit in the middle of a row, so there are far fewer people walking by.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Because a drawer is less likely to be you pocketing something if they really are afraid of theft. Same with nail clippers. It’s weird to be fiddling with your personal bag in some offices, depending on what you’re working with of course.

          1. Fiberpunk*

            What would those type of offices be? I’m not being snarky, I really don’t know. Are they watching for people stealing post-its? Corporate espionage?

            I work with gov’t classified info but they only make us take oaths and trainings, no one thinks of questioning what I’m doing with my bag. That environment sounds high stress.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Ones with cash and small expensive equipment that walks away.

              There’s a reason places have lockers available for employees. It’s not just to lock up their purse/bags for the employees safety.

              You have signed away your life if you are caught doing something wrong on the government level, that’s enough. Along with the security in your building usually to thwart theft but in a general office, it’s up to just making sure you’re all watching what’s going on at any given time.

            2. SunnyD*

              I’ve noticed that lower paid jobs are scrutinized closely for low level theft. Well paid jobs are scrutinized loosely, if at all, for massive theft.

              1. Fortitude Jones*

                At my last job, people were stealing the paper plates and plastic silverware. It was so bad that the facilities team sent out a company-wide email stating that if it persisted, they would stop supplying them altogether. Yes, this company was one of the lower paying ones.

            3. Emily K*

              They exist, though I would expect the venn diagram of “Offices where rummaging in a bag is suspicious/bags aren’t permitted at workspaces” and “Offices where you have an assigned desk you can keep things in” to have very little overlap.

        2. MonteCristo85*

          IMO, fiddling with your purse sort of signals “leaving” whether or not that’s true. I would imagine that’s what drawing attention, not worry about stealing or anything…same as if you were stacking up papers in a briefcase or whatever. I had a boss at one time who got kind of upset if you purse was even out on our desks so we kept them in drawers. Digging about in your desk drawer doesn’t have that “done with work” signal attached.

        3. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I feel like digging through a purse feels like “employee is doing personal things on work time” and it tends to draw more attention than opening a desk drawer would.

      2. londonedit*

        I was going to suggest keeping a lip balm on your desk – this is a very normal thing where I work (I have lip balm, hand sanitiser, hand cream out on my desk). Angelinha – I think Qwertyuiop is worried that their colleagues think it’s odd/they’re doing something nefarious when they rummage in their bag looking for a lip gloss. Having it on the desk means they could just grab it and apply it and wouldn’t need to rummage in their bag.

        That said, I do think you’re probably being a little paranoid, Qwertyuiop!

      4. Celeste*

        Yes. I have an arsenal of little things like this that I keep at work. This way I don’t have to dig in a purse or tote, and I don’t need a large purse! Eight hours is a long time to go without needing something to get through the day.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      Who is “they”? Is it just one or two coworkers? This could easily be a nosy personality trait that these people are extra interested in what others do.

      It’s weird if you are being watched carefully but like other mentioned a lot of this could be in your head. A bored coworker that spends a lot of time staring mindlessly at others or something and you only think its about you.

    8. WellRed*

      Hmm, I find it interesting that your thoughts to wondering if they think you are stealing (paperclips?). Did you come from a workplace where workers were mistrusted like that.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        My mind went the other way — are the co-workers reacting to the person who you replaced? ie keeping an eye on the new person to make sure she’s not goofing off like Jane did.

    9. A teacher*

      What kind of job is it? If it’s in a shop or a certain kind of manufacturing or something I guess the purse thing might not be so weird, but if it’s a more standard office job, that’s strange.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think some of this may be in your head and because you’re paying extra attention to them and your new surroundings. So you think all eyes are focused on you, when really they’re just drifting.

      Perhaps they are keeping an eye on you closer as well so that you know they’re available if you need them? It’s their way of staying in tune with the new person that they really honestly don’t have any reason to trust you yet!

      It takes time for everyone involved, newbie and the current staff to “gel” together, I think you’re in that awkward stage. Unless they’re saying something or staring at you for extended periods, I would shrug it off.

    11. Kat*

      Pretend you have no idea that they might be suspicious or otherwise being rude. Smile and ask “What’s up?” or similar in a friendly tone. If you keep pointing out that they’re staring, they’ll either explain themselves (see:ADHD and movements above), or at least be deterred.

      1. azvlr*

        I was thinking the same thing. If you are normally a good judge of these things, trust your instincts, and keep your guard up, but also conduct yourself as though you don’t notice. Don’t be their self-fulfilling prophecy.

    12. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      I like the idea of nonchalantly saying something like “oh, my lips are dry so I’m putting on lip gloss” or as KR suggested “oh yeah look at this work order Wakeen sent over,” etc. If they are weirdly monitoring you, it’s a subtle way of calling them out on it. And if they aren’t, then they won’t think anything of it.

    13. Megasaurusus*

      If your not doing anything wrong, you don’t have to explain yourself to anyone. If they’re worried about theft it would be one of those weird workplaces where you have to have a clear bag, etc. If you begin to engage in behaviors like explaining perfectly normal behavior to people so that they don’t think you are doing something bad then you will train those people to always expect an explanation from you and you would give them a very negative form of power over you. Live your life, put your lip gloss on whenever you need to, you’re at work, not prison!

    14. Parenthetically*

      “I don’t want them thinking I’m stealing something”

      This isn’t a reasonable fear AT ALL, nor is it remotely a reasonable assumption for a coworker to make even if that were what was going on. I’d say there’s a 90% chance your coworker was zoned out and not really looking at you at all, and a 10% chance that she didn’t think “grooming activities” are appropriate at work. Other commenters are right — next time, say, “Can I help you with something, Susan?” or another similar, neutral remark, and go right on trimming your hangnail or putting on your lipgloss.

      The vast majority of what people do in their work life has nothing to do with their coworkers. It’s about their own internal life, thoughts, choices, etc. There’s no need to rush to the assumption that a coworker is thinking ill of you, because she probably isn’t thinking of you at all.

    15. lyonite*

      Do you clip your nails at your desk a lot? I ask because that’s one of the most annoying sounds in the world, and if I had a coworker who was doing it regularly, and I got to know that the sound of her going through her purse was a precursor, I probably would end up staring when I heard it to see if it was about to start.

      No idea about the computer thing, though.

      1. A teacher*

        Yeah, that’s a possibility. Or other grooming that maybe should be done in the bathroom and not at a desk, like hair brushing or perfume spraying or excessive application of makeup. Putting on lip gloss is perfectly fine, though, in my opinion.

    16. Alphabet Pony*

      I often stare at my colleagues by accident while thinking and staring off into the distance. Could it be that?

      1. Autumnheart*

        I was thinking that as well. In fact, my desk is set up such that my monitor makes it look like I’m staring at the person across from me when I’m actually looking at the screen.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      If you are new to a job it’s kind of normal for people to look at the new hire for various reasons.
      Since you are one month in, I’d just ask, “Everything okay?”

      Try to remember we cannot control what others think. We can only keep our actions transparent so we can be above reproach.

      Nail clippers, specifically. We have had lots and lots, okay, tons of complaints about fingernail clipping at work. Try to leave the clippers at home and bring bandaids. Wear the bandaid until you can get home and clip your nail. You may have only used them a couple times but for some people that is a couple times too many.

      I can’t tell if you had a toxic job or if your new job is one of those places that believes everyone is stealing.
      But something is pushing you to think of this question of stealing. I’d suggest for big picture stuff start talking to your coworkers more. Learn their names and something about them. (Ex. Jane has a cat. Bob loves football. etc.) See if you can nail down where this feeling of being accused of stealing is coming from and nip it.

      If you do work in one of those places where everyone is accused of stealing, the solution there is to job hunt. Again. Sorry. I worked in one of those places. For several years I watched so. many. people leave under false accusations. The manager asked one guy to help fill in and eventually he fired that guy for stealing also. Our jaws were on the ground, the manager himself had hand picked this person. Even the unemployment office decided that it is not possible for so many people to be stealing from one company.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        And was it actually the manager all along? Because that’s what I would think after the second person was accused.

  6. KayEss*

    Question for people in tech, particularly web development: is a graduate degree or certificate in Human-Computer Interaction worth pursuing for a front-end development career?

    Background: My degree is in design (it’s a BFA), but I’m trying to angle my career into front-end web development. My coding and web-specific design skills are all self-taught or from informal education. I really want to get away from design-focused positions into hybrid or development-only ones. I’m really interested in UX from both a design and development standpoint, but I’m not formally trained in it at all.

    I was lucky enough to land a really awesome position that leverages my design skills but also allows (and expects) me to grow significantly as a developer… and it also offers a pretty sweet annual tuition reimbursement benefit for continuing university-level education. My last job search (that landed this position) was… rough. I don’t plan to leave here any time soon, but I’m a millennial who has had every job I’ve ever held vanish out from under me after less than five years, so I do want to position myself as best as I can for a future in which I’m looking for a new job.

    But I don’t actually have a great idea of whether an HCI education is a credential that matters out in the real world, or if it’s equivalent with any other graduate degree and just says “you went to grad school, I guess!” With design positions, everything is about the portfolio and education credentials are largely a formality. Any insights from people in industries with a lot of developers?

    1. Bekx*

      Is the HCI degree UX focused? I technically have a M.S. in UX, but it wasn’t called that when I went to school….but it was UI/UX/HCI classes that were focused on a UX curriculum. That being said I think UX degrees nowadays are way more valuable than the degree I got 10 years ago.

      Most people I know who work in UX have a degree specifically in UX. They are also SUPER BIG on UX Meet-Ups in the area, so I would start going to those as well. I’m in a similar career to you, but mine is more ‘web content updating’ and email than development — even though I went to school for development.

    2. Booksalot*

      Generally speaking, I would tell a comp sci major (or equivalent) that they just need experience, a portfolio, and a good Github.

      But for someone coming in with a BFA, I’d say a technical MS could be a help to you, if you want to take advantage of the tuition benefit anyway. You could probably rack up enough experience in a few years to get where you want to go, but if you’re eager to learn and have the reimbursement, it certainly would push you higher up in the application pile.

          1. EinJungerLudendorff*

            That was my read too. But the way it was phrased implied that they were different things?

    3. Nicki Name*

      Echoing the above, and also, don’t freak out about “less than five years”… the typical job tenure in tech has been lower than that for a long time!

      1. KayEss*

        I’m not worried about the optics of jobs only a few years long on my resume, since as you say, it’s pretty normal at this point… it’s more that, in my history, there’s no such thing as job security, so I’d better not get complacent! Every job I’ve had, I’ve either been laid off or left one step ahead of a layoff. Even in a job I love that seems stable right now, I’ve got one anxious eye on the possibility of having to unexpectedly job-search again.

    4. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Hope its ok I can piggyback on this a bit, but I am considering a move into HCI or UX from a business strategy background. Do I have to go back for a full degree or if I were to do a 3 month immersive somewhere like General Assembly, does that hold weight? It seems like in my market there is a glut of junior UX people and it can be difficult to be taken on somewhere.

      1. working in software*

        Someone I know did a 3 month bootcamp for UX and landed a job back in our city right after finishing, but the tech market in our city is very, very tight, so YMMV.

      2. Toothless*

        If you want something short(ish) and immersive, the University of Washington has a User Centered Design certificate that takes a year and seems to be well regarded.

    5. Kat*

      I work in tech for a well known two sided web platform (think Airbnb, door dash, Etsy, etc). I interview for our junior positions up to tech leads. I’d say no. You need to know how to code well and have a portfolio. Dev is not a job where people are impressed by fancy degrees with indirect value, rightly or wrongly. Many of our best developers went to community college for two years before transferring to big state schools, or studied other subjects then did code boot camp. Your actual ability to code and work decently with other humans aren’t the main things, they’re the only things. If a degree is teaching you something other than coding skills it might come in handy some day, but (I’m my experience which is a one person view point obviously) it won’t help you get hired.

      1. spock*

        While your ability to code and interact with only people are the only thing that should matter in an *interview* at many jobs, some kind of previous relevant job or certification or degree or bootcamp or whatever is much more likely to get you an interview in the first place at many companies. Recruiters and hiring managers still have to screen based on something. Anecdotally I can also say that most hiring managers at my own company don’t read cover letters for technical jobs so the resume is even more important.

        1. Toothless*

          On top of that, going to a university automatically connects you to a lot of tech recruiters – I got my job through my company’s university hiring program.

          1. Kat*

            Totally agree that we screen based on something, and a degree is usually the proxy for knowing you’re worth looking into… but those degrees are still just signals to me that you know how to code. Im not implying that we read cover letters either; we don’t even ask for them. However, a human computer interaction degree wouldn’t reach that bar for me. I’d rather see a computer science degree from a solid CC or a boot camp, either of which you could do a lot faster and cheaper than most masters degrees. It’s totally possible that the school in question will give scholarships and have excellent resources that will make the money worth it, but also possible it won’t. I’m always wary of ROI from these really niche masters programs.

    6. Toothless*

      Front-end web developer here! I work at a really big tech company where there’s three main roles that are somewhat adjacent to what I do: Engineer (me!), PM (program manager), and Designer. Based on what I see happening around me, PMs are the ones who talk to users, figure out business needs, and do the initial planning and sometimes design for our projects, but they don’t code. Based on the curriculum for UW’s Master’s in HCI, I think getting that degree would be helpful if you wanted that kind of PM role, but not for moving into something more technical. I agree with Booksalot that having a purely technical MS woud be helpful for you, or really anything that proves you know technical stuff and can code well.

      1. KayEss*

        That’s really interesting! Figuring out business/communication and usability needs is the part of web design I actually like most and would prefer to keep doing–but I also love to code and don’t want to give up that end. That’s why I’m trying to move out of “designer” positions, which are frequently advertised as not needing any coding at all (also, they pay a LOT less, like holy cow). Is that desire to be involved in the UX/structural design end something that’s likely to keep me out of big tech companies because they silo those roles?

        1. Toothless*

          I wouldn’t think so, but this is the first big tech company I’ve worked at so I can’t really speak for other companies, or even other places in my company. My job involves making tools primarily for internal use, which might lend itself more to people stretching out of their main role because we have a smaller audience than the people making the actual product. On the other hand, the advantage of a big company is that they work on enough different things that they can just hire someone based on how smart they are and then find a place for them, at least at the college hiring level which is how I got here.

          Programmer spots are harder to fill than designer spots (hence the ones you see being advertised as not needing coding skills and paying less), so I think if you are strong enough technically to get a developer job and not make hiring managers worry that you’re going to jump ship for a UX/design role in a couple months, you’ll be fine and any design/UX knowledge can only help you instead of hurt.

        2. Kat*

          It sounds like you might be happiest in a PM role somewhere like google, where most PMs are required to have CS degrees and know how to code. Where I am programmers really don’t have an jurisdiction over business or usability needs; PMs tell them what to build (having done the user research and made a business case), they negotiate the best/fastest ways it can be built, and then they build it. If you’re interested in business and usability, working as an engineer wouldn’t scratch that itch in the mid sized (you’ve heard of us but we’re not face book or google etc.) companies I’ve worked at.

          1. alphabet soup*

            Another role to look into: business analyst. They also work on the business side of things, such as doing interviews to figure out requirements, and some UX-adjacent things, like wireframes.

    7. dealing with dragons*

      certificate, maybe, grad degree, no. get a grad degree if you want to move into ux research or something.

      in my experience, since ux is somewhat quantitative you generally show that off in the interview anyway. I’ve been able to show off experience in what my interests are and in general discussions (“oh have you heard of Brad Frost and atomic design?” etc) as well as on my resume with what I was experienced with and apparently the fact its well designed.

      I didn’t think it was – its very plain and black and white, but recently I got a resume for a job we’re filling that was five pages of bulleted lists. oh, technology.

    8. just_another_developer*

      I’m in the same industry with a CS undergrad and HCI masters. I went into my masters mostly because I loved the design / UX aspect of front end development and I didn’t get enough of it in undergrad. That being said, I think my friends who used the technical HCI degree as a boost for their CS skills (after nontech undergrads) benefited more than I did from the masters. There is a misunderstanding in parts of the industry that front end engineers do not need the same technical chops as backend engineers. That is absolutely not true these days.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        There is also a misunderstanding in (I would say most of) the industry that front-end development doesn’t need a person with specialized knowledge of HCI and usability/user research. Which is why the majority of websites are pretty hard to use – not impossible, obvs, but all of those annoyances we run into would have been eliminated if the team had included that specialized role and allowed it to run usability tests appropriately. It does seem like the number of User Experience Researcher roles are expanding, though, so this may be shifting.

    9. alphabet soup*

      I’m getting my masters in HCI right now. I’ll second what other commenters have said: if you’re interested in doing front-end dev, I’d say the graduate degree is not necessary. But, if you want to work in product, UI, or research, I think it can be helpful, but again, not 100% *necessary*.

      I think a lot of HCI programs (mine included) don’t really focus on technical skills– we took a basic HTML/CSS class, and a JavaScript class, but that’s it for technical skills for the rest of the program. My program focuses mainly on user research.

      I decided to get my masters over doing a boot camp for a few reasons: 1. I did a boot camp in mobile development, and it was fun, but the pace was a little too fast for my learning style, and I also realized I didn’t want to be a dev; 2. When I started, I didn’t see too many boot camps focused on UX in my area– most are focused on programming skills. I also didn’t want to do an online program, because I wanted to build a network; and 3. I know that it’s technically possible to learn all of these skills outside of a graduate program, but for me, it was a lot easier to just pony up the cash to pay for exactly what I wanted– I used to work on a product development team, which you’d think would provide a lot of great learning opportunities, but that didn’t turn out to be the case.

      So far, it’s been a good decision. The program has a great job placement rate, strong alumni network that shares a lot of job opportunities and advice, and a lot of the profs are industry professionals, so I feel like I’m learning a lot about how UX is practiced in the real-world, rather than just theory.

      So, it just depends on your goals and what you’re actually looking to do. I noticed you responded in another comment that you’re interested in a role that mixes UI/UX and coding… I’ve seen that “UX engineer” roles are becoming more popular– someone who crosses the bridge between engineering and UX. You might be interested in that.

      1. cartoonbear*

        Yes, actually, at my last job we realized we had a hole in our UX team that needed to be filled NOT with a strictly technical person, NOT with a programmer, but with someone with excellent front end and JS who ALSO understood and cared about UX. So that role is there. However, what these UX jobs get called vs. what the jobs actually are is all over the map these days!

    10. cartoonbear*

      Late to party but….
      I don’t think HCI is what you’re looking for as a front end. I would think that certifications (Javascript, CSS) and a good portfolio of work would actually support that career path better. HCI involves not only web based (or even screen based) software applications–it includes kiosk, instrumentation, medical device, wayfinding, and all manner of other interactions outside mobile and the browser–unlike UX, which primarily deals with browser and mobile interaction/experience.

      UX is more of a design discipline, IMHO, than a development one, so a UX path probably wouldn’t be best either, unless you find one with a specifically development-oriented track within the program.

  7. Laika*

    I’m a few months into my new job, which is in a very specific and technical field that required a three-month training period. The work itself can be done basically by anyone so long as they can get through the training, so the employees come from a wide variety of backgrounds. Because of this, some folks lack some of the (useful! important!) context needed to excel in the work. Say we do llama dialect translation; anyone who speaks the language can make a direct 1:1 translation, but without cultural context, they might miss an important piece of nuance, mistranslate a slang word, etc.

    Our department head recently sent around an email with links to articles that would help give some of that context. I do think that the readings themselves are valuable, yet the wording in the email makes it clear she expects us to do the reading from home. I’m not even opposed to reading from home–I like learning and want to do well! But I’m pretty iffy on the idea of what is essentially an assigned reading list of homework that I’m expected to work through on my own personal time. Any thoughts?

        1. Kat*

          What does Canada have? As an American that would change my answer from “totally unacceptable go f$&? yourself” to “totally reasonable.”

          For the record I think suggesting helpful readings to anyone is great, but giving mandatory unpaid weekend work to hourly employees is 112% cheap and crappy

          2. Blossom*

            Well… I don’t think it translates that neatly, especially internationally. I’m in the UK and salaried – and contracted to work 38.5hrs a week. Yes, true, nobody’s really counting my minutes, but strictly speaking there is no expectation that I work any longer (or less) than those hours, and I wouldn’t be expected to take work reading home with me.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      This is normal career development. Set aside an hour or two on the weekend and read the articles. It’ll endear you to your manager and may even help you become even more proficient at your job. This isn’t an unreasonable request (and you may be able to do some of this reading during slow periods at work).

      1. Laika*

        Ahh, I’m glad to hear this. I’d heard various reactions from peers–anywhere from “I deleted it lol” to “I already read it!” After a few days’ consideration, I’m erring on the side of, “this is a practical, useful thing”. I do balk somewhat at the idea of “homework” but to reframe it for myself as career development makes it much more appealing.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yup! Always try to read positive things into stuff like this. If your manager didn’t like you or care about how well you did in your role, she wouldn’t give you the reading material to begin with. So this is a good thing. :)

    4. LawBee*

      If you’re not opposed to reading it at home, and it will help you, and she’s not requiring it, then go ahead and read it? I’m not sure what the issue is here. General professional development happens in the off-hours a lot of time.

      1. Laika*

        I think some of the clarifying questions people have asked here have nailed down why I feel a bit off about it – I’m paid hourly, and not a salaried employee. So my desire to stay informed in my field (which I can do on my own, without assigned readings, if I want) is competing with a mild grousing of, “Well, you pay me by the hour, pal!”.

    5. Colette*

      It sounds like it’s a little reading (i.e. not 50 hours). I’d try to work it into my work day or, failing that, my lunch.

      I’m not sure where you are in Canada, but here is the overtime law for Ontario:
      https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/overtime-pay

      So overtime would kick in at 44 hours (with regular pay before that). But that assumes that this has been assigned as work, and not shared as an option (which is more likely).

      1. Laika*

        I think this is a happy medium, but unfortunately the nature of the work is that I wouldn’t have the chance to do it while there (our time is quite strictly divvied up). And when I’m on lunch, I kind of want to check out of work, y’know? But I’m not opposed to committing 10 minutes of a break to getting through what I can, bookmarking and coming back.

    6. Blossom*

      I think it’s unreasonable to expect you to read it in your personal time. It’s in their interests for you to skill up in the way that this specific job requires (obviously, since they’re the ones sending you tje suggested reading), so they should be more than happy you to do it on work time. This is different from self-directed professional development. It’s more like a development plan set out by your manager.

      Btw I’m in the UK if that’s relevant – so I obviously can’t speak to what’s normal in Canada (though I get the impression your employment laws and resulting workplace norms are more like ours than like the US).

      1. Laika*

        Thanks for weighing in! I flip-flop each time I think about it, for exactly the reasons you’ve laid out here. I’ve been through training, I have the technical ability, and due to life circumstances I’m already slightly more knowledgeable about the “culture” than some of my peers who have been there for 2+ years. So it’s mildly vexing to be expected to go out of my way on my own time (as an hourly-paid employee) with extra work.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Since you’re all hourly, this might be a good time for a “push back as a group” strategy where you all ask if a certain amount of your work time can be allocated to reading these articles.

          1. Blossom*

            Yes, in fact the manager could consider holding a follow-up workshop or discussion on the reading, and make it required (in work time of course).

    7. No longer young*

      take it for what it is worth. (I’m salaried, not hourly). But I started making much more progress in my promotion path when I did start doing the outside reading – and not just the ‘recommended.’ I look for things that intersect my industry, read the newsletters (at least the synopsis of the key stories). I read and take professional development (how to present, etc) classes or volunteer opportunities, even when they don’t pay for them. I early on, taught myself just enough about the concept of “if this,then that” to bring the suggestion of how we could use it for our customers… the first year it was introduced.

      not to be a show off in any way -I am genuinely interested in human behavior, and I like making connections. I ask questions. And I read for self improvement and professional development.

      It really has made a difference in my perception of myself, as a life-long learner, and in my management’s perception of me, as someone who is passionate about improving things.

      YMMV.

  8. Vacations as a cure for Burnout?*

    In a letter this week about what might have been burnout (I’ll post the link in my next comment) there was discussion about effective use of time off to mitigate the feeling of bein disengaged / unmotivated at work. I know I left my previous position after six years because I just didn’t feel the same passion to come to the office and it was hurting my performance. I was lucky enough to have a month off and I used it as a “staycation,” hoping I would get my motivation back. I figured I’d been working so hard, I needed to take it easy for a while.

    Well I have to be honest, this did not cure my attitude problem, which has unfortunately persisted in my next job. Now I wonder if a more active and exciting vacation would have done a better job of shaking me out of the rut.

    However, other commenters felt the exact opposite: an adventurous vacation wasn’t relaxing enough to cure their burnout. Has anybody has a really successful experience with this?

    2. L.S. Cooper*

      I think there’s a sweet spot of vacations that’s probably different for different people. In my experience, relaxing and recharging are not the same thing. Relaxing is lovely, and a good way to rest a bit, but I rarely find it recharging. For me, I need novel experiences that aren’t stressful, and that work my mind and body in ways that I don’t normally get at work to feel refreshed.
      My success story: Over President’s Day weekend, I drove the 6 hours down to Santa Fe, alone, through the mountains, and spent two nights. I wandered around the town, looking at various museums and shops, but nothing for particularly long, I went to Meow Wolf, and I ate some very good food. For me, this worked because I don’t get a lot of intellectual and artsy stimulation at work, and I definitely don’t do enough walking. The drive down was pretty interesting too– I took the mountain route, which is longer, but prettier, and also involved some bits where the snow was blowing so intensely across the road that I could barely see the entire hood of my car!
      So, I think, for me, the right level of excitement is just enough to get me interested and stimulated and make my brain work in a different way for a bit. I was pretty content to get back home and back to work, even after just a short getaway.

        1. L.S. Cooper*

          It was excellent! But, I also think my issue with burnout wasn’t with having too much to do, it was with having too little to do, none of which is mentally stimulating. I spend a lot of time feeling sort of like a large, intelligent working dog who’s stuck in a small apartment with nothing to do, so the solution for me was to find some enrichment so I didn’t go crazy.

          1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

            I love this analogy – perfectly describes me right now. Im bored-out really (after an exhausting spring driving burnout) and while there are things I could be doing I just cant be bothered as they are stimulating enough. Now I find myself drinking coffee end of the day just to pep myself up. Its driving me nuts.

      2. Person from the Resume*

        I’m vaguely planning one of those vacations, but this comment has inspired to make it happen sooner rather than later. Thank you.

      3. londonedit*

        I agree. I often think ‘I just want a weekend at home doing nothing’ (not really because of work, in my case, just because I have a busy life in general and don’t often get a whole weekend with no plans/commitments) but in fact when I have a weekend at home doing nothing, I end up feeling bored and vaguely guilty about not doing something more interesting. I need something that’s interesting and different enough to give my brain a break from normal life, but not something that will leave me more tired than I was before! I recently had a couple of weeks between jobs, and I picked out a couple of cheap, fun and different things to do most days. So I went to a local spa that had a cheap daytime offer, I went to a couple of free museums/attractions in my area, I went for a run along the river and treated myself to an extra-nice coffee and cake at the end. I found those things much more ‘relaxing’ than just sitting around doing nothing (although I did enjoy a bit of sitting around as well!)

        1. Colette*

          Yeah, I think a different environment is required. You don’t have to be mountain climbing, but you do need to shake up your usual life and expand your horizons a bit.

      4. SunnyD*

        I think it’s worth checking that you’re asking a vacation to do the right thing for you.

        Are you asking a vacation to do the job of depression+ meds and a therapist? If so, a vacation can’t do that; you need meds and a therapist.

        Are you asking a vacation to do the job of a work coach or career transition service? If so, look at a work coach or career transition service.

        Are you looking for a vacation to help you with nagging fatigue? If so, look to an integrative medicine doctor.

        Are you looking for a vacation to unwind a bit? Awesome. Have a great vacation.

      5. Quinalla*

        I agree with this and it is very different for different people. A perfect vacation for just me is what some folks would consider doing nothing. Sitting on a beach all day reading books, maybe a little swimming, napping, etc. Or some nice quiet walks in the woods. With some breaks to eat food prepared by others. I love that kind of vacation and can do it for a whole week and be perfectly happy. But I am recharged by alone time and time to think and read. I can have lots of fun on a more active vacation and it can even be a nice break from the norm, but I try to pepper in some true recharge time for me or I get back from vacation and feel like I need a week long nap :)

        My husband needs more going on or he gets bored and restless, but he does need to have some “chill” time in there too when he is just watching TV, reading the internet, etc. Freedom to do what he wants and not be too tied to plans is really important to him too. So on family vacations we make sure there is liberal chill/quiet/etc. time, but also make sure we have loose plans of things we want to do or see. We don’t get too committed so that we can be flexible with what we are feeling like doing that day. It works for us, but it has taken awhile to figure it out!

      6. Filosofickle*

        I never really thought about the difference between relaxing and recharging — I’m so glad you noted this distinction! That will be helpful to me. I have built in lots of relaxation in my life, but not enough recharging.

    3. Sunflower*

      I can’t remember when or what letter it was but a discussion was started over if anyone has actually recovered from burnout and I believe a majority of people said no. Search ‘recover from burnout’ on the blog and a few posts came up where this was discussed.

      I’m still feeling burnout from my last job where I was doing marketing for BigLaw. I was so busy that even if I was just taking a long weekend, I worked OT before to get my stuff done or prep people on stuff that might come in. I knew my emails were just piling up with work I’d have to do when I returned- including new projects. I was stressed on my PTO about what was to come when I came back to the office. I spent my last day of vacation dreading coming back to work. I just…don’t think you can ever bounce back if that’s the status quo.

      The only thing that cured my temporary burnout was when I was insanely busy for a month and then we had a slow 2 months after that. I felt back to normal after that time. The key for me was there was an end in sight. I think with most people experiencing burnout, there is no end and their situation is the status quo.

    4. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I don’t really have advice, but sometimes…. the work just isn’t interesting enough or doesn’t suit you. I’ve been struggling with some severe attitude problems at my current job that I’ve had for less than 6 months because it has fallen so short of my expectations. I am working on reframing it as “just a job” in my head, but that’s a tough thing to do.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      In my experience, once burnout sets in, a vacation of any kind isn’t going to reset your mindset. Once it’s got it’s claws deeply into you and the motivation is done, it’s harder to rebound from and a lot of it is internal soul searching not just time away.

      It also depends on the person. Vacations never helped me, I had to just leave wherever I had been suffering the burnout from. However in my case, that was enough to reset my head. You may need some really deep interpretive searching to really figure out what will spark your passion again instead of just a cool adventure.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah, I agree that vacation probably won’t be enough. But OP is saying that they left the job they were at and tried to re-set with significant time off. If that’s *still* not enough, I’m concerned about that.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yeah, that’s why I really think the only answer here is a therapist and deep digging in her own headspace because if a vacation and job change didn’t shake some passion loose, there’s something in there hanging on.

          I worry it turned into depression honestly. That’s happened to me previously too but I’m prone to depression episodes.

    7. Jadelyn*

      I’ve successfully used a vacation to walk back burnout only once. My burnout was from a combination of work and school – I’d gone back to school to finish my degree but was still working full-time while I did it, so by the time I was finishing the degree I was so stressed I was barely treading water at work.

      So, my graduation present to myself was a week off. On Monday of that week, I went out to a gamestop, bought myself 4 new video games, stopped at Starbucks on the way home, and sacked out on my couch to play video games all week. I gave myself complete absolution from any and all housework and decided that for that one week, my only obligation was to do nothing productive.

      I think it worked because that was what I needed at that point. I suspect that the successful use of time off to counter burnout will be heavily dependent upon *what* exactly has pushed you to that burnout point. Internal politicking? Spend time alone! Feeling isolated at a remote office or WFH? Go be around people! Bored? Go do something fun! Overloaded? Do literally nothing!

    8. PretzelGirl*

      I think it honestly depends on the person and their life. For me the most recharging vacation is one I took with husband, sans kids last year. I just left an incredibly toxic job, 6 months prior, had 3 small kids and started a new job. We were both exhausted. At that point in our lives, we needed to sit by the pool/beach for several days, get in our daily workouts (without interruption), sleep and eat yummy food to recharge….. And omg did it help.

      Now I am at a better job, my kids are a little older and little less demanding. I could see myself going on an adventurous vacation, if we could swing it. Back then I was a blob, who couldn’t barely function!

      Vacations def help me recharge and relax, but others it may take something else.

      1. TechWorker*

        +1 I think it’s so specific.

        I was approaching burnout earlier this year and some recent vacations definitely helped. (In particular one with uni friends recently where I did not think about work even a little for a full 5 days). But tbh the thing that helped the most was seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and getting a promotion that made it all feel just a little less shit. I think if those things hadn’t happened I would have been quickly back to near burn out regardless of holiday.

    9. Lumen*

      Everything I’ve seen about studies into this says that *while on vacation* the effects of burnout are mitigated, but return within a few days or weeks once back at work.

      My take? Time off does not cure burnout. It’s addressing symptoms, not root causes.

    10. Federal Middle Manager*

      For me personally, vacations have never made me want to do my job more/better, they make me want to hike! and camp! and travel!

      My personal cures for burnout have been attending good conferences or trainings where I’m out of the day to day deadlines and remembering the big picture of where my field is going and what I can do to achieve professional development.

      1. Filosofickle*

        Yeah, I have never once come back from a vacation excited and inspired to get back to work. When I hear stories like that, I think…we must have very different brains. And I like my work! Often, I love it. It’s meaningful, interesting, and even lucrative. But I can’t say a work day is ever better than a Saturday with my sweetie or a trip to Anywhere Fun.

    11. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Honestly? I think some of the burnout culture now isn’t “burnout” so much as it is “mild existential crises that result when you realize not only that your work doesn’t really matter, but that most peoples’ work doesn’t actually matter.” :/

      My theory is that early in our careers, we’re much more able to tolerate that idea because we assume that it’s just that we’re young and entry-level work is never gonna be that inspirational and we’re doing it to establish a basic professional reputation and a basic standard of living for ourselves.

      But once you get past that, if you’re fortunate enough to get to that solid middle-class lifestyle and advance in your work, that dissonance just grows, and that energy to tolerate it is just gone (well, I suspect a lot of people get more of it by having kids, another great external locus for your hopes and dreams of a better future).

      I found this piece really helpful for articulating the problem, but alas, I don’t think there’s an individual solution. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/millennials-burnout-generation-debt-work

      1. Filosofickle*

        I can’t find the article off-hand, but I read a great theory about mid-life crises that states this (more or less): We’re happier when we’re young because we’re on our way up. We may be frustrated with what we have but we believe it’s all leading somewhere, and we see the potential. Then we hit middle age and think, oh shit, is this really all there is? Our wishes didn’t all come true (job, family, fulfillment, whatever) but time is no longer on our side. We’re disillusioned. Later, we get happier again after about 55 because we have gained acceptance of what is, we’re no longer wishing for what we don’t have.

    12. Tipcat*

      For me, it has made the return to the job unbearable. It’s sort of like the frog-in-boiling-water metaphor: Before the vacation, I hate my job but I’m used to it. Returning to the job after a week off, I can’t stand it. I am acutely aware of everything I hate about it and how much I hate it. On two occasions, I have started looking for a new job as soon as I got back.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Back at work, the things that used to annoy me are still there and still annoying me.
        One person commented to me that it took her two weeks to feel like she had one week off. She spent the first week convincing herself she did not have to go to work. The second week felt like she was home for the week.

    13. Jaydee*

      I was suffering from burnout for a long time at my previous job and noticed a marked improvement when I changed jobs, but it still took a while to feel like I was really solidly back to normal. Even after almost a year, there are still certain things that will trigger some of my less helpful defense mechanisms from my old job and I have to employ strategies to fix that.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      I just came back to work Monday after 11 days off and a lovely beach vacation. I didn’t want to go back. It’s been a ROUGH week!

      I enjoy my job, but you know it’s called WORK for a reason and if I were independently wealthy I’d much rather not work. Honestly, I think everyone feels this way. Don’t beat yourself up.

    15. Perpal*

      It depends on the level and the why of the burnout, I think.
      This week I was feeling a little burned out on my medical profession, I tend seeing a lot of people who have a serious diagnosis, and for inpatient weeks are often dying/transitioning to comfort care. I made it a priority to go out to a carnival with my little kids and get them to frolick, and felt much better.
      Other times a night or two of indulgent staying up late and watching horror movies (which is so irresponsible) just seems to reset my mind that life is not an endless slog of [interesting, meaningful, but not what I want my whole life to be all the time; just some of the time please?] work.
      Times in the past where I’m at critical stages of stress/burnout, and or if the problem is really a level of bad fit and possibly low grade toxicity; well the solution is just say this isn’t working and change paths.

    16. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Hm. Similar issue here. I was burned out for about 1.5-2 years (or more! I know, I know…) at the last job. I pushed through the initial stress lifts to get things done (because the end was near) and the timelines kept moving so I kept pushing on…. eventually I was in a massive burnout trying to finish things and I just kept holding on trying to get them done. It turned a mild burnout into a pretty severe one, I think. I was just trying to get through the days–tired all the time, ill-tempered for me (especially at the end), stressed about getting things done correctly and accurately, little to no help, and still trying to be professional about nonsense. It really wore me down.

      I’d take a week’s vacation and stress about all the stuff that would be waiting for me when I got back. I took a few days here and there and couldn’t let go of the work.

      So then I changed careers with little break in-between (a few days). Didn’t fix the burnout, even though it was a totally different field. Kept feeling bleh and unmotivated (not a good combination at a new job!)

      Ended up leaving that (bad fit) and taking a few months off. That was the only thing that really helped. The first couple of months I really just thought about work stuff or tried to remind myself “I’m not working on that anymore” or “nothing I can do about that now, I don’t work there” odds and ends. After the first two months or so I noticed that I started missing things I enjoyed doing–reading, walking around outside, home stuff, etc. I just really needed a few months with no work responsibilities to get back to who I was. Nothing helped but time. I did drain my emergency reserves as part of it, but looking back I honestly think I was treading really close to stress leave anyway. So maybe it would have worked for you but you just needed more time? :\

      Hopefully you aren’t in quite so similar a boat, but if you are–start making your escape plans now, and give yourself a break if you can. If you can’t, think about the most stressful part of your job (for you) and see if you can off-board some of it for a bit–trade with a colleague or shift responsibilities so that you are doing something that bothers you less and lets you relax/recover in the evenings.

      If I could go back and do it again I’d make a point at the first few signs to take a vacation, and when it got really bad to look at a more serious conversation with my management about off-boarding responsibilities.

      Good luck.

  9. WKRP*

    I’ve been working in my department for 5 years and in my career for 15. I’ve been looking to make a big career change for the last couple of years. I’ve actually had a productive conversation with my boss about it and let her know that I had no plans to leave unless a position opened in a specific department. (Like my dream job). I also know the boss’s boss of that department and mentioned it a few times to her in passing. Well, the other day a position has opened up in that department and honestly, I’m a little unsure about what my next steps should be and also now slightly terrified of the prospect. This would be a big change and I would take a big pay cut (30%). I’m pretty sure I can manage the $$$ (I have some savings and honestly, if I want to make this change, a big pay cut is inevitable), but still.. now that there’s a reality, I’m a touch frozen.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Submit the application. You won’t know if this is the right step if you don’t even try.

      2. peanutbutty*

        Agreed – it only becomes a dilemma if you get offered the job. Submit it and see!

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Review your company’s policy on internal transfers to make sure you don’t have to get your manager’s approval first before applying. If you do, have a discussion with your manager about your interest and then apply to the new role.

    3. B. J. Salinger*

      You should evaluate why you are getting cold feet — just right it all out and keep asking, why, why, why, why to each item that comes up as a reason of why you shouldn’t apply or make the chance THEN right a ‘solution’ to each of those ‘reasons’ and see what is really the fear.

      2. WKRP*

        Oh, I know why… it’s mostly change. I would basically be starting over from scratch. So, not only would I start a career that is much different from what I’ve been doing for the last 15 years, there’s also the fact that I would have to go back to my early days of being on a budget. I am also aware that I have never liked my career, that what I enjoy doing is part of the job description of this position, and that if I’m going to make a career change, doing it at a place that appreciates what I’ve been doing for the past 5 years is probably as good as it’s going to get.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          As others have mentioned this is a process with steps.

          However, cutting to the punchline, you can take the job and tell yourself that you will do it for two years or whatever time frame. If it goes poorly or if the finances are too tight then you will do something to help yourself. I put this type of thing as a promise to myself and I hold myself to the promise.

          Many people do not like change. That does not get better as the years go by. I favor making the adjustments you want in life NOW, rather than waiting 10 years or so. It won’t be easier then and it is very possible it could be harder.

    4. Ali G*

      DO IT!!!
      When are dreams have a chance of becoming reality it’s normal to get scared. All the “what ifs” start creeping in. That’s OK – do it any way! You won’t know it’s the right move unless you take the first step.

    5. Megasaurusus*

      I’m going to be the voice of caution here. I cringe whenever someone voluntarily, and cheerfully is willing to take a pay cut for a “dream job.” You say you have savings, well unless you are independently wealthy, savings run out.

      When we fixate on an ideal and believe that the beauty of that ideal job will see us through real discomforts, like less income I am wary. It sounds very rose-colored glasses and giddy kind of thinking. Have you tried voluntarily forcing yourself to live on 30% less for a few weeks? And no matter what dream job is achieved, most people I know find out that all jobs are jobs at the end of the day with the same kinds of mind numbing activities and repetition that can burn anyone out.

      You can apply, interview, try to negotiate salary – and after all that’s said and done reject an offer if you get one and feel it isn’t right for you – and while doing that, I’d strongly suggest voluntarily feeling what that 30% drop in income would really look like day-to-day. Explore the option, but maybe try to enforce a kind of self-discipline that doesn’t get attached to the idea that this is the only job for you and you have to take it if offered.

      1. WKRP*

        Appreciate the note of caution. But, not to worry, I don’t have rose-colored glasses on. The job is in the profession I went to grad school for, doing the type of work that I particularly enjoy doing. I have never liked my 15-year career in the field I’m in. It was a job I took right out of school, did well in, and consequently rose up the ranks. But, it doesn’t come naturally to me and I fight every day to be good at it.

        I have lived on the salary that is posted. (Granted 10 years ago and doubly granted with additional expenses now that I didn’t have before, but also without the significant debt I had and I now own my home, which stabilizes my living expenses)

        I call it a dream job, because it is in an area that I’m passionate about. But, it will be an entirely new job, so I recognize that there may be issues that I won’t know about until I do it.

        1. sacados*

          I do think that Megasaurusus’s idea of trying out life on that 30% less (maybe starting now, through the application process?) is a good one.
          Really get a sense of what it would be like in your day to day now, if/how much savings you might have to use each month, etc.

    6. Quinalla*

      Honestly, for me I take it as a good sign when I’m a little be fearful/unsure as I know that means I’m stretching myself. That isn’t to say you should ignore that feeling or anything, but I’ve started to welcome that feeling a bit more saying “Ah, now I know I’m really pushing myself!”. I still analyze the ups and downs and go through the “What’s the worst that could happen?” scenarios and make sure I am ok with that for whichever choice and also the “What’s the best that could happen?” as well.

      Some people tell me they have never felt afraid. I don’t know if they are lying, never challenged themselves or their brains just work differently, but for me that is normal to feel when I’m make a bit of a leap.

    7. ..Kat..*

      I did this a few decades ago. Different career, significant pay cut, feeling frozen before the final leap. I had an additional expense of needing to spend 2 years earning a new degree.

      I made sure I could live off my new budget. Then, I took the leap. That final big step is difficult. Change and the unknown are hard. So many of us stick to the familiar, even if it is making us miserable.

      I recommend you make a backup plan (if possible), and then go for it.

      For me, I struggled through some difficult years, but the change was ultimately worth it. It helped that I had a couple of key people in my life that were very supportive of me and the change. It was one of the best decisions I’ve made in my life.

      Good luck, whatever choice you make. Keep us updated if you can. AAM is a nice, supportive community.

  10. Fortitude Jones*

    Minor vent ahead:

    I’m going into the 11th week of my new job and realizing that I don’t care for my direct manager at all. She started off well, but then as I’ve watched her interactions with other people we work with, and after a recent exchange we had, I’m discovering that she’s passive aggressive, petty, and indiscreet, three traits I can’t stand in anyone least of all in a manager.

    I really wish I reported directly to my dotted line manager. He’s very laid back, open to feedback and suggestions, and isn’t remotely territorial. I also really like the way he gives credit to everyone who comes up with good ideas for our team – he’s always complimentary and gracious when I bring new ideas to the table.

    He also asked me if I would be interested in leading a writing training seminar if the opportunity presents itself – I’ve been creating training guides focused on proposal writing that he absolutely loves, as does our corporate trainers, and he’d like me to help shape our department training processes. I told him I’m not very comfortable with public speaking, but I’ll keep an open mind should the opportunity come up and reject the idea out of hand. He told me he really believes I’d be very good at it, so he’ll keep it in mind and talk to his manager (my grandboss) about it.

    I really like my grandboss as well – he and I have very similar ideas on how we’d like to see my role evolve over time – so I figure I need to just stay cordial with my direct manager and further develop my relationships with grandboss and dotted line manager. Both of them have higher visibility at the executive level, especially my dotted line manager, and if I get in good with them, they may help elevate me beyond where I currently am – and then, hopefully, I could convince them it makes more sense for me to also report to grandboss. I mean, grandboss was the one who signed off on my hiring, gave me the 27% salary bump I asked for in addition to increased vacation time, and it just makes more sense for he and I to work closer together since we’re at least in the same country.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Do it!! Practice, have friends help, take a class, join Toastmasters, whatever. After you’ve been in TM for a month or two, tell your boss he inspired you to join.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I’ve already attained the Competent Communicator designation from Toastmasters through the chapter of a company I worked for five years ago. Toastmasters didn’t remotely help my stage fright – it’s an anxiety issue, which I’m currently in therapy for (among other reasons). But I’m thinking I can maybe record a video or instruct the course virtually – I’d feel much more comfortable at home or being recorded.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Good luck and watch your back. If your direct manager is as petty as you state, trying to pull a power play on her is unlikely to go well.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        What power play? I’m merely planning to grow my relationship with my dotted line manager and my grandboss and, hopefully, get my reporting structure changed. I have no desire to do anything in the realm of what she does – and frankly, I’m not sure why she’s even the one managing me and my new coworker since we don’t do what the rest of her team does. We should be reporting to dotted line manager and when he moves on, report directly to grandboss since it was the latter’s idea to create these open-ended positions in the first place.

        1. OhBehave*

          She’s going to see this as a power play. Watch your back. You have a great relationship with everyone but her. She’s going to feel threatened by that and will watch your every move. It doesn’t matter who you think should be your boss. It’s her for the time being so be careful to keep your opinions and attitude towards her well hidden in tone and action. She sounds like someone who could make working for her impossible to tolerate.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I work from home and she works in another country, so she won’t see me getting closer to anyone since our team really doesn’t see each other at all (all communication is done via chat and conference calls). I’m also really good at working for people I personally don’t like – most of my managers have been people I was “meh” about. I’m also not stupid enough to tell anyone what I personally think of her because what I think doesn’t matter. But I’ll keep these things in mind, especially the tone part, because that is something that’s not often easy to control.

    3. Kittymommy*

      See if they have a Toastmasters or something similar where you live. That will help as well.

    4. ContemporaryIssued*

      I’d stick it out for a while and continue making connections with your grandboss and dotted line. Perhaps a role opens up down the line they know you’d be good for and then you can switch roles and leave your unpleasant manager behind.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I really love my current job, so I’m not really looking to leave it anytime soon – I just hope that as the position evolves, grandboss will see the value in having me as a direct report versus being managed by someone who doesn’t even know a lot of what I do. And I think because he and I are both new to this company, we both see things very differently than my manager who’s been there forever and tends to be very set in her ways on certain issues.

        I also think it would benefit my coworker for us to have this different reporting structure because my manager treats her like the red-headed stepchild of our team, which is awkward as hell. I’m especially disappointed in how that situation is playing out because I just left a company where I was being treated very differently from the other members of my team due to my former manager having favorites, so I know how shitty that feels and it’s not cool to do that to someone new. But I stay out of that situation for the most part because it’s not my place to fight my coworker’s battles.

    5. Quinalla*

      Go for it! Internal public speaking is a fairly low-stakes way to build speaking skills. Prepare and practice thoroughly, expect to be nervous at first (sometimes I even directly address it with the folks I’m speaking with as that can help), but just keep going and you’ll get into the rhythm of your practice pretty well. And especially since it sounds like you’d be speaking about something you are passionate about and knowledgeable as well, you are on your best foot there!

      Definitely watch out for your direct manager, but continue to build connections to these higher level managers too!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thanks for the encouragement! I think I will ultimately will end up doing it, even if it’s painful, because it’s an opportunity for growth and, like you said, I’m very knowledgeable on the topic and I’ve had really good success with my training guides so far. Plus, it’ll look fantastic on my resume. I just know I’m going to be a nervous wreck beforehand, lol.

        1. OhBehave*

          Do it!
          Definitely practice with video, etc. That will help your anxiety. The more you do it the more at ease you will feel. Knowing the info you are presenting forwards and backwards is half the battle. Think about what the worse thing that could go wrong will be and work through the solutions. Your bosses sound awesome. How nice to have encouragement like this. My guess is that you won’t have evil boss for long.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Okay, okay, lol! You guys are convincing me that I should suck it up and do it. It is a great opportunity, and I thought it was really kind of him to make the suggestion and basically tell me that he thinks I’m a good teacher. I also got some very kind feedback from a higher up the other day after I spent four hours over four days coaching him on his writing. He was very resistant to it, and he even tried to get argumentative with me when I asked him to make reasonable changes to his document (I shut that down quick though), but after the dust settled and other people read what he wrote (with my substantial edits included), he said he really appreciated everything I did for him and he learned a lot for me. I have to admit, that made me very proud.

          2. Fortitude Jones*

            And just to clarify – I don’t think my manager’s evil. I think my manager is a control freak who isn’t used to not getting her way (she was basically running the show for more than a decade), and anytime she feels left out of something, she does something passive aggressive to try to gain that control back (hence her treatment of my coworker – she told me she never wanted to hire her in the first place, which…yeah, don’t tell people that).

  11. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

    It’s been 19 days since I was let go from my church job. No permanent work yet. I’ve cobbled together some temp work hours but it’s not nearly enough. At first I was not given severance pay, then he got pressured into reconsidering, so gave me the magnificent sum of… two weeks. This is really a lay off; when the bookkeeper got fired she got four months notice and three months severance. And, because it was a different pastor, she was treated like a human being. I was treated like a bag of garbage.

    I’m emotionally devasted. I cry a lot; I’ve called mental health hotlines twice. I had a church job interview yesterday; I got shaky half way through and was crying by the time I got back to my car. I knew what they wanted to hear but I just couldn’t say it. Pretty sure they won’t hire me but even though I’m desperate for work, I don’t think I could work for another church again.

    I can probably pay August’s rent here but I will be forced to leave next month. Lease runs through October but there’s no way. My only option is something very cheap, like being a roommate, but I have to have some kind of employment. No one will rent to someone without even a steady temp job.

    That man burned down my life. I will lose almost all the belongings I have, my home. None of it is of great material value, but these things matter to me. He could have given me a decent severance pay, given me a chance to survive but he simply. doesn’t. care.

        2. Natalie*

          What were the grounds? Depending on the circumstances it might be worth appealing. It’s a bit of paperwork but there really isn’t any risk – if the appeal fails you’re right back where you started, you won’t get in trouble or anything.

          1. Natalie*

            Oh, disregard then based on your other comment! Well that’s a bunch of bullshit in my humble opinion.

    2. B. J. Salinger*

      You could apply for unemployment benefits, maybe? But if you have any rapport with the church community, you could ask them for help as well? No one wants to be on the receiving end of charity, but desperate times call for desperate measures. Good luck!

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      I said it before on the last open thread, but it bears repeating – that pastor sucks. I’m sorry you’re going through this. Please try not to give up hope and be strong even though it’s hard right now. And please take the advice to seek help from the church community – I’ve seen those communities come together in amazing ways to help one of their own who’s in need.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        Based on the experiences of my friends and family, pastors tend to be the worst kind of bosses. And getting let go from church jobs with no warning and no severance has happened to several people I know. It’s one of the big reasons I left my former religious affiliations behind.

        Thrawn, I’m really sorry this is happening to you. You deserve so much better.

        Is there a temp agency near you that could help you get some work as a stop-gap measure?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Oh, that may be a good idea if you have the space (and can clear it with your building management).

      1. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

        Support staff, yes. But he’s clever. He denied me OT, set me up to fail, then complained to the elders. And now he’s using volunteers only in the office. It’s chaos. But he’s saving money.

        2. Just Here For This*

          Can you have a meeting with a legal aid attorney about the best way to approach this? Making an employee homeless is a really bad optic for a church, and would not be great if it got around your parish. I don’t mean threaten them, just know the employment laws re: churches where you are and then contact them and ask them for a meeting about the manner in which you were laid off.

          I am an admin too, I know what it is like to be sucker punched after 15 years of loyalty. Perhaps some managers here can give you pointers for setting up a meeting and negotiating severance as a form of publicity control?

          Also, sign up with every agency in your area, and be up front that you are. If they are legitimate, they should accept that you are right to do everything you can to find employment and will not expect you to be “loyal” to one headhunter.

    7. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I’m so sorry! I worked community-based nonprofits for awhile, and leaving them is *so* hard emotionally.They encourage you to become personally emotionally invested in your work as a way of getting you to stick around because you’re attached to the community members. Then when you leave, it’s almost like you’ve lost a family member. It’s a really tough transition.

      You’re not alone in having a hard time transitioning from this type of job. It’s normal. Take some time to yourself and some time to work on moving forward. You can do it!

    8. dealing with dragons*

      do you have access to a computer? I know there are some online types of jobs where you transcribe documents, etc. they don’t pay a lot but it’s better than no pay.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        National Capitol Contracting is a reputable one. The application process may not be fast enough to save the lease, but it’s worth a shot.

    9. Pippa*

      Also sign up for every religious coalition service in your area – food bank, cash assistance, rent assistance, whatever is available. Ask for job networking. Be open about being laidoff with only 2 weeks severance. His behavior is shameful. Your need is not. Don’t cover for him. Ask the County what services you qualify for since you don’t get unemployment. You may be surprised to find you qualify for benefits you did not know about. Finally, if your church is part of a denomination (rather than an independent congregation), write a letter asking for a severance package similar to your former coworker’s package and copy all the offices from the district, regional to national. Since you are rightfully feeling emotional, have someone you trust read the letter first or have a legal aid attorney give her opinion on the letter content (and idea) before you send it.
      Also, his behavior is an Offense to God and your Faithful service to God. I know that isn’t discussed here usually but in the context of your work for a church you may have also been hurt in your faith and if so I am sorry for that. I wish many blessing for you both to meet the immediate pressing needs and for future peace.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Totally agree about an offense to God. I did a Crown course and it talks about how the bible says to treat employees. This is so NOT how to treat employees. I am glad Pippa opened this part of the conversation, OP, because it’s an important part in your particular setting.

        Consider what you have written here as practice for what you need to say in your letter that you could send to so many different places. Be sure to put a “cc” at the bottom and list off all. the. different places you are sending the letter to.

      2. Lepidoptera*

        “Also, his behavior is an Offense to God and your Faithful service to God.”
        Since it is a religious organization you may be able to get away with bringing that up in the letter somehow.
        Pretty sure Jesus frowned upon people who deliberately made people homeless, etc.

        1. EinJungerLudendorff*

          Pretty sure he once whipped a bunch of bankers out of his church. He would not appreciate this kind of behaviour from “his” people.

        2. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

          Yes, I think He did too. It’s definitely an offense against God, and yes, I have been spiritually harmed too.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            No doubt in my mind that your have been scarred at the spiritual level on this one. I think you know that churches are a human-made thing. And churches may or may not (as in this case) represent what God is all about.

            Psalm 147:3

        3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Might not be quite the right scenario for you but you might find some support and ideas from the exvangelical community? Look on twitter and Facebook.

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        Great advice, Pippa. Please try these things, Grand Admiral. I’d hate for you to end up homeless over this douchenozzle.

    10. Scout Finch*

      So sorry you are going through this. In the past, when I needed fast cash, I delivered pizza. Got cash every night. It helped pull me out of some bad debt. There is no shame in fast food or waitressing work. I know many people who work in an office in the day & pick up 4-5 hours a night at a restaurant. So maybe you could start now & shift your schedule once you get office work. I don’t know what the job market is like in Tally right now, but places in Memphis are looking for solid workers and will work with reliable people on schedules.

      Are you on a contract with your cell phone? If not, you may want to consider going to Consumer Cellular (you can keep your number – as low as $25 +tax for unlimited talk & text, plus a little bit of data) or a pay-as-you-go phone like Boost. Or maybe a friend or family member can add you on their plan (usually for about $10-20 a month).

    11. Gumby*

      I’m so sorry this has happened to you. My father taught at a church-affiliated school and was laid off in a similarly abrupt and weird way and he never worked at another church-affiliated school again. It’s devastating all around.

      My church maintains a “Needy Family Fund” which is used to help out members and others who stop by the church asking for help. So please do not hesitate to ask for help! From the church and any/all other organizations in your area. I know asking for help can be difficult. But do you like to help others? Then allow them the chance to serve you as well. (It’s a really hard mental block for some people, me included. I am much more comfortable doing the helping.)

      I second the whole get a roommate thing if you can. Or consider alternative sources of housing. I had friends who got room in exchange for services (one stayed with an elderly lady and took her to doctor appointments; one was a live in part-time nanny) – clear expectations are a must, but those situations can work out. Consider branching out in your job search. You’ve done admin work – what about being a personal assistant? I mention it only because some of those jobs are live-in here, but I am also in an area with a larger than normal population of very well-to-do families. Do you have friends with a spare room? Can you stay there for a month or two?

    12. Lilysparrow*

      My husband & I have worked for non-profits, and this is one of the “hidden” costs of making a nonprofit career based on your live for the cause.

      The organization pays just barely enough to live on, so you have no ability to save for emergencies. Then they put you into an emergency.

      If they aren’t paying you enough to save up 3-6 months emergency expenses in a reasonable timeframe, then they just aren’t paying enough.

    13. Princesa Zelda*

      It’s not a lot of money, but I was talking to my Lyft driver a few days ago and she told me that Lyft pays same-day. I don’t know how long it takes to get set up, but “gig” type jobs like Lyft or Postmates or charging up those electric scooters might help a little. And as a passenger, I’ve met some people that have given me good advice or told me about a service that I didn’t know about; you might find the same thing, with luck.

      You might also be able to get a seasonal fast-food or retail job. It’s a bit late for the summer season, but Halloween stores are about to start hiring and if you live near a college, places around it’ll be hiring in anticipation of the beginning of fall semester.

      I wish you the best of luck, and I’m sending positive vibes in your direction.

      1. Anono-me*

        FYI-Electric scooter charging has some risks. Your electrical system has to be able to handle the load and if not it can cause a fire. (Homeowners insurance doesn’t always cover work from home/side gig stuff.)

      2. Princesa Zelda*

        Also, I nearly forgot — the Census Bureau is hiring too! If that’s something you’re even vaguely interested in, it’s might be worth considering. I think they’re about to start address canvassing? They came round my library a couple months ago to advertise and the census will be ongoing until mid-to-late 2020.

      3. Chaordic One*

        I have a coworker who moonlights as a Lyft driver and who was trying to talk me into doing it, too. His two days that he makes a point of working are Friday and Saturday nights and picks up a lot of people who have been out partying and drinking and who are afraid to drive.

    14. Anono-me*

      If you are near university or other research center, you may want to check to see if you can be a paid participant in any type of medical or other studies. Obviously you will want to exersise caution if it involves taking a new medication, but many of the tests do not. ( A friend participated in a study that involved eating a special diet for three months and having her blood drawn every few days. There was a stipend and fairly normal food was provided.)

      Please also consider checking with companies that provide services to people with developmental disabilities. It can be a very challenging career on a variety of levels, and often is underpaid; but this means that the hiring process is usually quick, (background checks and drug testing are usually the slowest part). You can also often negotiate all sorts of non financial perks, schedule, using the wifi, etc. (I know one who negotiated to do her laundry at the group home. I also know a person who works overnights. Her kids come with her. They all sleep onsite in the staff bedroom. )

      An odd position that you might be well suited for and not previously considered is that of sorority house mother. (Many sororities do not want alumni.) It is has onsite housing and meals, in addition to pay. All your time managing the congregation probably means you have developed a skillset that would transfer well.

      Good luck.

  12. Anonymous for reasons*

    Sorry, this is a little long.

    I have been burning out hard at work for the past few months. My office has had substantial staff turnover and I’ve been covering my job, 100% of the duties of a vacant direct report, and about 50% of the duties of a vacant peer. And on top of all of that we were not able to get temporary clerical staff with our secretary out on long term leave so I haven’t been able to get help with things as basic as scheduling interviews and printing/collating huge information packets. I’ve repeatedly informed various levels of management that this was absolutely unsustainable, I was working 20+ hours over my schedule (I’m salaried), and I still couldn’t get everything done. They were repeatedly dismissive and just kept telling me what a great employee I am and how I always get everything done and my work is great.

    Well, I broke this week. I do finally have some new staff, which will be helpful long term but in the short term means I’ve added training people on top of my 2.5 jobs. I had a panic attack at home in the evening worrying myself literally sick about how I could possibly get things done on time.

    I was desperate and knew I needed to take a day off. I texted my boss (who I have worked with for a decade and get a long with really well, even if I’ve been frustrated by the lack of meaningful support lately). I was WAY more honest than I would have been if I hadn’t been mid-panic attack. The worst of it being that I felt so stressed out I was having suicidal thoughts. To her credit she handled it really calmly and did not make it into a huge thing. She made sure I was ok and asked how she could help with the work stress.

    The thing is, she didn’t really help with the work stress. When I met with her back in the office she ask me to go over what were the biggest things that were stressing me out, which I thought would result in her getting me some more resources (like clerical help) or taking something off my plate. I gave her a list of the things I could barely keep up on. But then she just went back to telling me I just shouldn’t worry about it because I always get my work done and it’s good.

    I’m at a loss. I don’t know how to make her see that the only way I’ve been getting good work done on time for the last few months has been by working ridiculous hours that are unsustainable and costly to my mental health. I also don’t really know what to do in the aftermath of my oversharing and the embarrassment I feel now for saying what I said. Thoughts? Ideas? Help?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The only way to make someone understand that you cannot continue to perform at an unsustainable level is to let some things fall through the cracks. Stop killing yourself to get it all done.

        1. L Dub*

          Totally agree about letting some stuff drop, just document document document the number of conversations you’ve had asking for help, with whom, etc. And document in writing to your boss what you’re moving forward with as your priorities.

          Good luck!

          1. Colette*

            Definitely – present your plan for what you’re going to do (and not do) to the boss, and then do that.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Second this. She doesn’t see the problem because you haven’t let it be a problem for her yet.

      3. Interplanet Janet*

        100% this. Actions speak louder than words.

        “Could you give me priorities on these tasks, please? I have to stop working such long hours for my mental health, so I’m not likely to be able to get them all done, and I need to know what you’d like me to work on first.
        If you don’t prioritize them for me, I can guess, but I think it would be better if I have your input.”

        Then what doesn’t get done doesn’t get done, and you have given your manager fair warning and a chance to mitigate the damages with prioritization.

      4. zora*

        Correct. As someone who was in the same situatoin, this is the only thing that worked. (And by worked, I mean, they still didn’t really get it, and the organizatoin suffered in the long run, but at least I wasn’t in the hospital/mental hospital)

        It was SOOOO hard to actually do this, so I sympathize! As a high-achiever, it was so counter to who I am to just watch something fail, or watch a deadline pass without fixing it. But it got easier with practice. I had to be very intentional with myself, and do so many coping mechanisms:
        – set a timer for 6:00pm, at which point I would literally stop whatever I was doing and walk out the door.
        – Continually repeat to myself: “I will do what I can in 9 hours, and that is all.”
        – Make myself a to-do list for the day and decide on my own priorities, since my bosses refused to, but I would choose about 4-5 things per day. And that was all I could do.
        – Set timers for breaks, to stop and eat, to just stop and go to the bathroom even!
        – LOTS of intentional disconnecting when I got home. I took email off my phone, put texts on silent, I would redirect my brain if I started thinking about work “No, it’s not time to think about work, I am going to read a book/turn on music/put on a movie”
        – And when you know something is about to fail, or a deadline is about to pass, you have to just allow that feeling of panic, breathe through it, repeat ‘This is not my problem” and go back to something that is on your short to do list for the day. It is HARD, but you can do it!!

        Hopefully, once a couple of major things actually DON’T HAPPEN, your management will wake up and realize they have to prioritize hiring someone, OR, ramp way down on their expectations for what will happen.

        But even if they don’t, you HAVE to take care of yourself first!! No one else will take care of you and your health, you have to do it, or you will end up in the hospital or mental institution. Remind yourself of that when you feel guilty or second guess yourself.

      5. whatthemell?*

        Just came to agree with this.

        OP start working “regular” hours and ask what they need you to make sure is completed within those regular hours. STOP doing crazy long hours and crazy amounts of work. Let them feel the results of the lack of appropriate staff members.

        Good luck and please try to cut back on overextending yourself, because your superiors are not going to change anything until they feel it.

    2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      You need to meet with her again. Take an hour and make a list of tasks, prioritize. But this time, make a column of things that CANNOT BE DONE. Tell your boss that you can do X, Y, and Z. You can not do A, B or C. And then listen. Let her explain how it will get done. And say no, you can’t do that. Then listen some more. But don’t leave with a pat on the back and “you’re doing great!” It sucks, but you have to.

      1. zora*

        She has told her and she’s not getting it. I think the time for a talk has passed and agree with others that OP needs to just NOT do some things.

        1. EinJungerLudendorff*

          I mostly agree. The boss has been informed about the situation and that it’s unsustainable, so the only way to make them listen is probably to make them feel the consequences.

          However, I would also reccommend to do what Hey Karma said. For one, it will help the OP get CYA material if they can point to a meeting where they specifically said that A, B and C unless her workload was drastically reduced or she got more support. It makes sure that management can’t just retreat back into claiming ignorance.
          And spelling out the consequences like that might actually get through to the boss, which would save the OP a lot of headaches.

        2. Perpal*

          Yes but it can be helpful to let boss know “I cannot do x y and z” ahead of time. If asked why not, say “becuase I am prioritizing A, B and C”. etc etc, broken record, say only what you can do, if they try to add something else then say what will be dropped in its stead.

    3. Chrome*

      Is it an option to refuse work? Can you approach your boss again and say, “Due to my health issues, I can’t continue covering x and x positions the way I have. Here’s a list of tasks that will need to be delegated to someone else.”
      Or, maybe have the conversation about the lack of support. “I hoped our conversation the other day would result in some sort of change, but I don’t feel anything productive was decided on. I can’t continue doing this, it’s unreasonable to ask me to cover 2.5 jobs. I need something to change, whether that means delegating tasks back to someone else or getting a clerical assistant. What do you think?”
      Or, if you’re uncomfortable being this straightforward with your boss…how about just dropping the ball on a few tasks that are unrelated to your real position?

    4. Laika*

      Ahh, I’m sorry – this is tough! I’ve definitely had the experience of over-sharing with a boss while in the grips of anxiety, so I know how decidedly un-fun it feels afterwards, but it does sound like she handled it gracefully.

      As for your list of projects, I wonder if your boss looked at it and thought, “I’m not sure why Anonymous is stressing, they’re getting all this stuff done!” but doesn’t understand that the work going into it is unsustainable for you. If you think she’s open to a follow-up conversation, you might want to present a short-list drawn up from the others and state more explicitly, “When you asked about my stress levels, I hoped that we would address these things. But I haven’t felt like my workload has changed since then. I can’t keep working at the same pace, so which of these projects should I prioritize? I can only realistically handle [six out of ten] of them going forward.”

      If your job performance will suffer (and more importantly, your mental health!) to continue working at the same pace, you’re doing yourself and your boss a favour by laying it out honestly, imo.

    5. Frustrated In DC*

      First of all, panic attacks are terrifying and I am so sorry that you had such a severe one.

      Secondly, how did you have the conversation with your boss? Did you go to them with your list and say “Here’s what is stressing me out.” and then wait for them to fix it for you?
      OR
      Was the conversation “Boss, here is the list of items that are causing me the most stress. I know that the work is getting done, but here is how many hours it takes me to do each task. [show them tasks broken down by amount of hours it takes for you to accomplish] It would really take a lot of pressure off of me if we could hire someone part-time who could do xx work for this project/that assignment, maybe someone 10 hours a week? I can’t continue to work these kinds of hours – it’s not sustainable anymore. Can we begin looking at hiring the first week of August?”

    6. Bionerd*

      You need to let some stuff go undone so it becomes your bosses problem. Right now she doesn’t have a problem because you are doing it all (at too much personal cost). Search this site, I’m pretty sure Alison has given advise for this situation before.

      Good luck! And take care of yourself.

      1. Anne (with an "e")*

        +100 Let things go. Go back to working a 40 hour week. Seriously, only work 40 hours. If things don’t get done, explain that there is just no way you can physically do all the work. Explain to your boss than you cannot and will not continue to put in the extra hours that you have been doing previously. You have reached your breaking point and can no longer sustain that workload. Tell your boss, “You want me to do tasks A, B, C, D, E, F, X, Y, & Z in a given week. I can only do three of those things, but not all of them? Which three tasks would you like me to complete?” Then, only do those three tasks.

        Best Wishes. I hope that at some point we hear back from you and it is a positive update.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yep. Yep. I had to do this at one job. What a time suck that job was. I had to draw a hard line.

          The boss won’t see a problem until there’s a problem. So let that problem happen, OP.

          There is psychology in groups where the group can let one person carry all the upset while they go on having a great day. It seems that you are carrying the upset for your boss. As long as she has you, she has no need to worry, she has told you this point blank a few times now. The problem is that you do not have “another you” working for you.

          Go in and announce that you MUST limit yourself to the 40 hours you are paid, it’s not a choice as you must limit your hours for a couple reasons. (You don’t have to say the reasons.) You may or may not mention what is getting done or not done. Friday at the appropriate time announce to her, “Okay that is it for me this week. I will see you Monday, have a good evening.” And leave. Refuse to worry about it. As one person they have you working way over the capacity of what one person can do and they know it. Technically speaking that is their problem NOT yours.

          The one thing I have done in a situation like this is to train the new people on the tasks I am not getting to do. OR I pass on the tasks that are easy to do, quick to train on, yet time consuming. And I have also told them that they have to help train each other- this pulled some questions off of me as they could ask each other.
          Another thing I have done is I chose to do the task that benefits ME in MY WORK. In the training example, it benefited me for Jane to learn how to do time consuming X. So guess what got done? Jane got trained on X.

    7. A tester, not a developer*

      There’s an expression that gets used a lot in relationship discussions that I think applies here: Stop setting yourself on fire to keep others warm.

      Pick a thing you’re going to focus on this week – maybe training the new hires. Do it all within regular hours – no more overtime. Let your boss know this will be happening, and that some other things are going to drop because if it. If the response is ‘figure out a way to do it all’, then it’s seriously time to start looking for other work.

      1. Anita Brayke*

        That’s my theme song: Stop setting yourself on fire to keep others warm. I learned this week that I can’t keep all the balls in the air, after I took a sick day (GASP!!!! So very frowned upon here!!!!) on Tuesday this week. I learned that my mental health is FAR more important than a job. If I get fired, then I’ll find another job. I work hard, I work well, I work smart. I’m great at what I do. I take criticism well and work from there to improve. It may sound goofy, but say stuff like this over and over in your head. You’ll start to believe it, and you’ll be right!

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      Yeah…that was very not helpful of her.
      As the others have suggested, time to drop a few items. If you don’t want to go through the face to face again, send boss a list and say that you need to get back to a less stressful place at work so will be prioritizing things in this order and A, B, and C are what you see as your priorities so are going to focus on those. If you have time, you will start with D and head down the alphabet. Chances of getting to items X, Y, & Z are basically zero so those needs to be offloaded.
      End with a “let me know if you would like the items shifted in order of their priority but I simply cannot get to all of it nor will I allow myself to get back into the place I was earlier this week”

      1. Karo*

        Yeah – Alison has given similar advice a lot with language like “In a given week, I can handle tasks A, B and C but not X, Y or Z. Let me know if these priorities need to shift.” And then stick to it! I’m sorry you’re going through all this OP!

      2. Clisby*

        Yes. The answer is not to just let things drop without explanation. It’s to explain that in a week you can do X amount of work, and here’s how you see the priorities. If the boss sees the priorities differently, fine – but you can still do only X amount of work.

    9. Aquawoman*

      Good suggestions here. Another thought–can you identify people to whom some of this work can be delegated. How many people are in your position and are they doing the same amount as you? Is there someone junior who can be tasked with handling some of the admin functions? I’m appalled that your manager heard that you are having suicidal thoughts and decided it wasn’t a problem (!!!!) but maybe if you could identify specific actions, that might get more traction. Or, if there is stuff that is not-critical, suggest it be let go until you’re better staffed.

    10. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I’d recommend going back to your boss and saying something like “When I’ve expressed my concerns about how difficult it is to keep up with my workload, you’ve responded that it’s fine and that I always get everything done. But the reason I always get everything done is because I’m working too hard and doing too many things. As I mentioned earlier, it’s taking a serious toll on my health and I’m not able to keep working at that level. I need to remove (x number of things) from my list of responsibilities so that I can focus on regaining my health. That being the case, I will need you to reassign some of these tasks to other staff members, or determine which tasks can go undone for a while until we’re fully staffed and trained.”

      And then let her figure it out. You’ve tried to tell her multiple times, and now she needs to listen. You’ve been keeping everything afloat, and the very least your company owes you is a chance to regain some of the health and strength you’ve lost while you were saving everybody’s backsides.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes! Please add this to your next meeting with your manager! The point about “don’t stress, you always get it done” is ridiculous, she wasn’t hearing you at all.

        Tell her explicitly you only manage to get it done at the very obvious expense of your health and well-being and it is NOT sustainable. I hope you get through to her.

    11. Mr. Shark*

      You mention some clerical work that needs to be done, hopefully simple stuff. Is that something you can hand off to the new hires that need to be trained? If it’s something that you can take 10 minutes to explain, and then let them do it, that may take some of the load off your plate with minimal stress on your part.

      The other thing is I agree with the ideas mentioned above…if you have to let things drop, let them. You can’t take on all the stress yourself. If you don’t feel like you can have a one-on-one because of stress, maybe write up a quick e-mail and just list what you are going to focus on, and indicate you don’t have time for the other options and she (your boss) needs to find someone else to do those items if they need to get done.

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I hate to say this because I know you say that you and your boss have worked well together over the last decade. But in the end, your boss doesn’t care about you, she just cares that the ship that’s clearly sinking keeps the few deckhands she has bailing the thing out.

      She’s okay with you going down with the ship, she wants to provide you as much limited “support” as possible, without straight up telling you to “suck it up” and “deal with it” because all that she cares about is her own job, her own skin and the company not going out of business in the end. It’s sick and selfish but it’s the way that this kind of tire-fire situation works out.

      I’ve been there. I’ve been you. I had a boss that straight up to my face told me that I was valuable, amazing and perfect and they wanted me to stick it out with them and that things would get better, yadda yadda. Until I pushed back and dropped the bricks I had piled up on my back. [Which is what I encourage you to do because you deserve to live and survive this nonsense, you will be okay and there is other options out there for you, this place stinks and it’s awful] Once I dropped the bricks and just said “I can’t and I won’t anymore”, I was threatened with termination. Good, that was what fired my desire to really just be gone. I was given a new job within 2 weeks of looking and out within 4 weeks of that “threat.” And I bounced back. I got through it and you can to. It will be okay.

      You cannot change a person. You cannot expect them to think of you as number one, you have to think of yourself first and foremost in the end. Let this ship sink and jump onto a life raft headed towards shore.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        BTW you say that someone is on leave for an extended period of time, eh? So this is a big enough business that it’s under FMLA? Can you afford to take leave? If you can, your mental health breakdown is covered under that kind of thing, you can check yourself in somewhere and they can f’ing deal with it. If that’s an option of course, I know it’s not always a thing for people.

        1. Windchime*

          This is what I ultimately had to do when I was going through something similar. I was also having suicidal thoughts, many times a day. I cried all the time and my anxiety was unbearable. I went to my doctor and she was alarmed; she had a relative come and remove all medications (that could be used to self-harm) from my home and put me on a 2-month FMLA. It took two months of rest, therapy, and doctor visits to make it so I wasn’t constantly having dark, scary thoughts. I did have to go back at the end of the two months, but I didn’t stay more than a few weeks because I was interviewing with what is now my current employer.

          This is serious business, OP. When a job is literally driving you to think about ending it all, it’s time for a meaningful change. Please take care of yourself and don’t let this job ruin what’s left of your health (mental and physical).

    13. TechWorker*

      I’ve been there with literally telling my manager I cannot cope and on the verge of breakdown and being told ‘don’t worry you’re doing ok’. Totally agree with other commenters that you should explicitly let things drop. And make this clear to your manager. ‘I don’t have the time to deal with x problem, so it won’t be dealt with’. What actually helped most for me was getting the perspective of a manager from another part of the company – and also raising it up.

      I explicitly told my manager multiple times the workload was not sustainable and the stress levels were affecting my health.. then I went a level up and I got another two team members literally the week after. I can’t promise this will always happen obviously but do consider the view that your manager is unreasonably laid back and you need to mitigate for that.

    14. OhBehave*

      Alison has addressed this issue before. I believe her solution is to make a list of the tasks you are currently doing. Prioritize them yourself. Meet with boss and tell her you can no longer work so much overtime. “I appreciate you commenting that I’m doing a good job in getting everything done. But working so much overtime is impacting my health in a negative way. I’ve made a list of the tasks I am currently doing and prioritized them. Do you agree with my prioritization?”
      This touches on the oversharing. I think this is the only time you need to address this.
      I totally understand the panic you feel as you worry about getting everything done. You are very conscientious.
      Keep us updated and good luck.

      2. NoLongerYoung*

        I am burning out too, and I am trying a version of this. I burnt out once before.
        However, note that I am actually on here on a Friday night and I’m not working still. (First Friday night I’m not working in a month).
        History: I actually have a manager, but… get tasks directly from grand boss, great grand boss, and now, great great uncle-boss. Directly. Manager has basically checked out. She knows I’m overloaded, but has no power.
        I am an overachiever, but…here are some of my coping skills I’ve been trying this week as well as the ones that I have already implemented or did last time. (I’ve added more, including Alison’s scripts)
        1) someone asks me to do x, I say “I am doing & and Z urgently. I can’t get to your item until next Thursday ( truth). If you need it before then, you will have to work with (grand boss) to see what can be taken off my plate so that I can help you.” This worked for one item today. Great-grand boss updated his own ppt deck.

        2) The list (I’ve been working with Grandboss, as she needs to run interference with the great-grands). I did figure out the top 3 things I knew I must work on, and about how much time they take (this is at least 35 hours/week). Anything new that comes in, I ask Grandboss if it can be delegated, and explain that I can’t get to it without removing one of the top 3. (I have no reports, but I look around at someone, anyone, who has the capability to do it, and request g-boss , cc to boss, to get the new item delegated.) I am waiting to hear the response on the latest, but I made a compelling case.

        3) letting the ball drop. By their choice, leadership removed super competent helpful person that had been assigned about 1/3 of my projects (and took on extra of mine when possible), and replaced them with person who is not competent (who is suppose to keep these projects going). I am not taking those items back. Does not matter if things crash and burn. Those are their tasks, not mine. I had this realization today, when not-competent took her second vacation day in 2 weeks last minute, while big-important-project is crashing. I stepped aside and let the boulder roll down the hill past me. (I’m on here instead. I did forward the boulder-crashing email to grand-boss for line of sight and said “Status update.”)

        4a) Saying no. There are people that come to me, that I used to help. Cross-functional project meetings I used to attend, and lots of helpful thought leadership/ brainstorming sessions/ insight participation, that I used to give. I stopped. I’m not unhelpful, I simply say “I’m sorry, right now I do not have time like I did. I “might” suggest alternate person, but “no, I’m sorry, you need to find someone else” is generally an appropriate answer. Put on my oxygen mask first.
        4b) I allow the next highest level person to own the responsibility of the meeting/ task. I say “P, you are doing a great job. You are in charge of representing us at this project meeting. You have shown great instincts and wisdom in all the interactions in the past. I trust you. If you want to skype me on the side if you need help to reinforce something, let me know, but otherwise, you have got this pat.” And I give credit g-boss for her good work and make sure everyone knows she is representing “our team.” (I just sent this email – we do weekly kudo emails across the bigger group).

        5) Redirects. Some of the folks that come to me could or should be helped by someone else or find their answer elsewhere. I am taking a moment here and there, to redirect them. Consistently. “I believe the best person to help you is and she has solid, helpful documentation . If it does not meet your needs, she will update it so that everyone’s questions can be answered. I’ve copied her on this email so she can take this forward.” (and I drop it). If I truly can delegate it (with minor degradation in quality) – let it go. And sometimes (a lot of the time) they are not willing to stretch and think. I no longer help them there.
        Let’s be fair. I do “not” need to do it. I need to let others learn how to fish for themselves, and I need to let others have the joy of becoming the expert, or being helpful.

        6) I did – to get out of the deep detail of a previous job – do an entire set of training power points on the “Basics of as we have implemented it” This deck set – I asked for and got permission to have a BA do for me. I did a brain dump, and she built it. I gave “brown bag” lunches for our team meetings, and did 20 minutes at a time, to force (with leadership credit LOL) everyone to learn the basics of what I knew. Did they retain? I don’t know. But forever more, if there was a question, I sent them to that wiki – and I got the BA who built them promoted to support said software, so that she could answer the questions and upkeep it. It took a little time, but eventually, I was able to move out of that job and up to my current one…because they didn’t “have” to come to me for the answers all the time.

        It’s hard when I have high expectations of myself and others. But… I need to not burn out again. And, maybe some of these can help you.

    15. Anonymous for reasons*

      Thank you all. I really appreciate the responses. I feel like I’ve been a little gaslit and lost touch with what was reasonable. I’m definitely going to meet with my boss again with a list of things I can and cannot do and let her tell me if she wants me to rank them differently, but hold firm that there is a maximum number and it about half of the work I’ve been doing the last few months.

    16. Not your Dad's Recruiter*

      Ah, this is not going to be helpful, but I had a gem of a similar situation.
      My boss, knowing how much is on my plate, told me to forewarn him if I feel things are about to get out of control.
      So when a new task came up, I did just that. His reaction: “Are you about to fail one of your tasks?” “No.” “Then why are you telling me you have too much to do?” “Because one more thing added to my list will make me fail, and you had asked me to forewarn you.” “Are you failing now?” “No.” “Then why….” etc.
      Then, when this one thing was added, and I could not finish everything on time, his solution was for me to: 1. In the morning give him a list of things I will be working this day. 2. In the evening tell him what I had done.
      Thanks, boss, this really helped!

  13. SaffyTaffy*

    In a few wweks I will have direct supervision in my job for the first time since 2017. I am very excited for everything from the added structure of having a manager to their ability to make high-level decisions and hire more staff. I really am happy. I’m also nervous that they won’t like me (possible), or that they’ll like me but eliminate my position (irrational), or that I won’t be able to re-learn how to “behave myself” with a manager close by (undetermined).

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I was in your same situation about 4 months ago when I got a new manager. Turns out, she’s actively invested in managing, which is new to me. I haven’t had an engaged manager in years. Some things will take adjusting to (she likes more notice and structure about things I prefer to keep flexible) and other things are welcome changes (monthly 1 to 1’s), but I’ve been able to have some good conversations with her and present myself as highly reliable and capable.

      What helped me was to create a list of questions for our introductory meeting that addressed topics I knew are somewhat at manager discretion (for us that’s typical working hours, work from home options, communications about PTO). Some of them were answered before I asked, but I was glad to have reminders of other stuff I wanted to know, and time to think about how I wanted to approach topics that are important to me but might cause friction if she has different policies than what I’m used to. The rest I kind of picked up on during various interactions either directly with her or when she has monthly all-staff meetings.

      Hope it’s a positive experience!

    2. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I would make sure to create a list of things you want to talk with them about when you first meet them, which could include a million things, but I would make sure it includes something like “I’ve been without a real manager for years, so I’ve learned to function in this role really autonomously. I’m really excited about your coming on, and the additional capacity and structure that will bring, but I’m hoping that we can ease into it a bit, so we can find the right mix of collaboration and independence?” And make sure to communicate openly, ask for lots of feedback, and give lots of feedback; setting your relationship off on the right foot to help you both be honest with each other about what you need. Good luck! :)

  14. Blahblahblah*

    I leave work every day feeling like I’ve burnt out and worried that even a change in jobs might be hopeless. Anyone recover from burn out? Can someone out there in the void tell me that it’s temporary and I won’t feel like my stressful job has ruined me forever? What’s your story?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Ooh if people start talking about vacations, there’s a thread upstream to watch as well about the specifics of the type of vacation that might help.

      But also, is there any opportunity to change your role up within your current job? Job searching can be s0 long and frustrating that it rarely feels like a cure short-term.

    2. Kat*

      I have. Step one should be actually using some vacation time (like at least a week). Step two was changing jobs. When you’re in a bad job, every job sounds horrible. I think it’s the opposite of most situations, where when it’s bad everything else sounds better.

    3. wondHRland*

      Only thing I’ve ever found that helped burnout was to either take on something new (i.e. learn something), or change jobs because you’re not learning new things.
      For me, burnout usually means i’m bored and just DONE.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      My burnout coincided with major life events. I handled it by taking control of my diet, hydration, rest and limiting the amount of negative media I looked at. I put myself on a formal schedule so I went to bed on time each night and I ate proper meals daily. It took a bit, but I got my mind back.

      A chunk of my problem was I took on too much at work. Just because you can do something does not mean you have to do it. Watch out for the numbers of times you volunteer to do one more thing. Watch out for times where the boss seems to be asking you to do something, as opposed to instructing you to do it. Get comfy with the NO word.
      Delegate as often as possible. It was so easy for me to keep helping a person who asked for help. Answer the question that is asked and let them come back if they have further difficulty. Be more willing to let others around you go through their own learning curve themselves.

      If you are not already do it, leave on time. It’s a simple thing that is bfd. We have to know that our workdays will come to an end. We cannot have perpetual workdays.

      Yes, you can get out of that job. Yes, you can come home from a job and NOT be dog-tired and unable to function. This is possible.

  15. Newbie manager*

    I have been a manager for about a year and a half now. I switched to a different company to get this job. This is my first time in a management  role or having reports. Every summer we have interns. We offer the best ones who are going into their last year of college a job once they have graduated. Last summer I had a great intern and I made a case for her to be offered a job. My boss reviewed my case and accepted. She graduated and started her job here a couple of months ago. She just called out sick for a week and a half in the hospital. We don’t penalize people for calling in sick here. However there were concerns about it for her because she returned with a tan and HR found photos of her on social media showing she was on vacation. They asked her for a doctor’s note because of the concerns as we don’t normally ask for one. She brought one in but it turned out to be a forgery. She admitted after being confronted about the note that she had lied about having a seriously illness and being in the hospital. She was really on a cruise and she lied about being sick since she didn’t have any vacation time accrued yet. She was fired. My question is, since I recommended her for a job after her internship do I need to apologize or say anything to my boss. I feel embarrassed over this because my recommendation got her the job. I haven’t been a manager for very long and she was my first hire as an intern. I didn’t think she would do something like this. What should I do if anything? I feel so nervous about this even though my boss or anyone else hasn’t said anything.

    1. Zephy*

      You had no way of knowing that she would pull a stunt like that. It’s not your fault, her behavior and poor judgment is not your problem. Now, if she’d been a personal friend of yours and you knew she’d pulled similar scams in the past, then there’d be a reason to scrutinize your judgment in hiring her. But presumably she didn’t do this during her internship, and while internships are for learning how2officejob, you wouldn’t have had a reason to specifically tell her that faking sick to take a vacation and then failing spectacularly to hide the lie is Not Done.

    2. Bortus*

      ouch. I dont think you need to make an issue of it. I would err on the side of not saying anything…

    3. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      I think you can have a conversation, just bring it up in terms of this year’s group of interns. You can say whether you think there are any outstanding interns this year and you can add that the actions of this young woman make you wonder about your judgement. But honestly, she was a great intern, she was a great candidate, she was a good employee. Then she made a stupid choice. Just as it shouldn’t destroy her future, it shouldn’t destroy yours either.
      People do dumb things. Forgive yourself and move on.

    4. B. J. Salinger*

      You couldn’t have possibly foreseen such unethical behavior. She was a good intern and did, presumably, good work so you made the case for her. I certainly understand the sense of duty you feel to your boss/company for recommending someone you thought you help advance the business, but it didn’t pan out. I don’t think you need to have a conversation to apologize, but if you so feel like you need to, you could ask for chat to discuss what could have been done differently to prevent something like this in the future. It seems to me, reading between the lines, that the vacation policy may not be too forgiving because after having worked for a ‘couple months,’ you’d think she’d have some time accrued.

      1. Another Sarah*

        No way someone would accrue a week and a half of vacation time after 2 months. You are being unfair to the OP.

          1. Psyche*

            Someone who lies about being hospitalized for a week and a half is not going to be happy with a day or two.

            1. B. J. Salinger*

              Of course. It’s been my experience that some employers will give you the allotted time for that year in good faith that you will also finish out the year with them or they deduct it from your last paycheck. I realize that not every company is like this, but we don’t know any specifics here so this is all speculative.

              1. designbot*

                I’ve only worked for a company who did this once… and they wound up rescinding that privilege because too many took advantage of it.

              2. Fortitude Jones*

                My last company did this – that’s the only thing I liked about their time off policy (no accrual).

          2. Observer*

            But this was not a day or two – it was a week and a half. Even in places with decent vacation policies don’t give you that kind of time in the first few months.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              If she knew she had a previously purchased vacation, she should have talked about that during her hiring negotiations and at least negotiated a time-without-pay. (Which I did starting here all those years ago.)

            2. Kat in VA*

              It depends. My company has 25 PTO days up front, useable from the day you start.

              But they expect to be notified of something like a ten day vacation during the hiring process!

    5. OtterB*

      I think you can say something to your boss along the lines of, “Wow, I’m sorry [former intern] ended up being a problem. There were no signs of any ethical issues when she was an intern.” But after that, I wouldn’t worry about it. It happens and I don’t think it reflects on your judgement.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        This. If the intern was on her best behavior during the internship, you couldn’t have known she was going to pull such a dumb stunt. Chalk this up to her immaturity and move on.

      3. Liane*

        I know Alison’s answered similar questions with scripts. They should come up if you site search. And she also reassured those LWs that if they hadn’t seen anything but good behavior during the internship/probation period, there was no way for them to have known.

      4. CheeryO*

        Yes, this. Don’t say anything negative about your judgment skills, and don’t turn it into some big thing. People are weird, and stuff happens. You used the information you had at the time, which is all anyone could expect of you.

      5. Kiki*

        Yes, this wasn’t a family member or a friend where people might be wondering if you didn’t disclose everything you knew about them before you made a recommendation. This person was an intern and presumably they did nothing like this while they were your intern. It’s unfortunate when a recommendation goes awry, but there’s no way you could have known intern would do this.

        It may be worth considering asking soon-to-be-new hires if they have any planned outages/ vacations when you’re at the negotiation step. I don’t know the time breakdown of intern’s decision to go on a cruise, but it’s possible it’s something she booked before she was hired and she panicked and handled it in the worst possible way.

      6. Sunflower*

        Agree- there was also a post on this a year or two ago that should be helpful for you!

      7. Mr. Shark*

        Yes, I wouldn’t make a big deal about it. You didn’t see any issues, and everyone agreed with the hire, and the person made some bad choices and got caught. That’s it. Move on.

      8. BethDH*

        I like this because it shows that you understand and agree that it was a major problem. I don’t think there is any issue that you didn’t foresee this (I don’t see how you could have!), and that would make sure that they know that you don’t resent the outcome or disagree with the ethical issues it involved.

    6. Observer*

      In addition to what the others have said, think about whether there were any red flags that you now see in retrospect. Also, was anyone else involved with her? If so, ask that person if they saw any red flags that they didn’t take seriously?

      It’s highly probable that there really were not any red flags, but it’s always worth thinking about. And, if you let your boss know that you’re doing that, next time you have a check in or when talking about hiring in general, that signals that you are the kind of person who tries to learn from things rather than getting defensive, without taking blame that isn’t yours.

    7. Sunflower*

      I agree that you can step back and see if there were any red flags but it sounds like this intern is just reallllllyyyy naive. Calling out fake sick for a week and a half is so wild- I’ve never heard of anyone pulling something like this.

      Maybe because she’s new to the workforce she thought that calling out sick was the only way to get time off- we see all the time that it’s usually NBD if you have an upcoming vacation and don’t have PTO accrued yet to either borrow the time or take it unpaid. In the future, I would make a point to any new hires upfront what your policy is on that.

      1. Observer*

        I definitely think that most probably there weren’t any red flags. Because even aside from the ethical problems here, this is just a really dumb and bizarre thing to do. You don’t expect that from high performers.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          And yet it does happen. I wonder if some people work at a level they know they cannot sustain so they go MIA for a bit. This happened to me, a high performer went MIA. What is worse is that she did not see anything wrong with what she did. I never saw it coming, she was a high performer and very much into being professional at all times. Or so I thought.

          OP, you are a boss not a mind-reader. You had no way to know that sometime in the future your new hire would take illegitimate time off.

          It’s her shame to wear, not yours, OP. It would probably be good to talk to your boss. If you have a decent boss they might tell you their own story of a high-performer going AWOL.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        And not only did she call out sick, she said she was hospitalized! That of all things would make most managers concerned and want to check in or get updates on how you’re doing. She should have claimed a death in the family like other people who try to get over, lol.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As long as you’re recommending people for hire based on the facts you know [she was an intern, she did show up as an intern, she showed promise and was a good intern, etc], then you are totally clear here.

      I agree that you should dig around in your head and see if there were any flags you may have missed. Did she lie before and now you realize it was a pattern?

      Otherwise it’s seriously not your fault and you could never have foreseen that she’d pull this kind of trick.

      I’ve seen some crazy stunts being pulled by hires and believe me, they’re always blindsiding to everyone involved. Someone who is otherwise a good person and a good employee decides to try something outrageous like this. She made a serious mistake and had a bad judgement call, she may not even be absolutely devious, she’s probably just caught doing something dimwitted and paid the price for it. I have a feeling she won’t try it again and this was a stinging lesson that will stick with her for the rest of her life.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Posted to social media though…. posted to social media. It might take a couple times before she gets this one. The disconnect here is huge. Hospitals have tanning salons? ugh….

  16. Dr. Doll*

    What would you all do or recommend in this situation: Terrific, fantastic team. Desperately short-handed. Generally underpaid. Possibly in danger of being split and part taken over by another unit. Two candidates who are good enough — no red flags, no yellow flags, just no jingle bells. For a dating metaphor, think “I’ll learn to love you.”

    Should we hire both, neither, or one of them and search again?

    (And also, talk to the powers that be about getting people appropriately compensated so we don’t lose more!)

    1. fposte*

      Depends on the position, the timing, the possibilities, and the need for pressure relief.

      If you can identify why you got less sparkles than you expected in the pool and can fix it for another round, that raises the value of going for another round. But if you’d just be recasting your same net hopefully, I lean more toward taking what you’ve got.

    2. Colette*

      What does “good enough” mean? Will they do the job well but are lacking soft skills? Will they need more training than you’d hoped? Are their references mediocre? Were there red flags with their interviews (rude to the receptionist, only talk to the men on the interview panel)?

      If you think they would do a solid (but not exceptional) job and treat their coworkers with respect, hire them. You may not be able to hire superstars if you underpay. If you think they’d be rude, bigoted, etc., pass and try again. If you think they’d do a poor job, pass and try again.

      2. Liane*

        “Were there red flags with their interviews (rude to the receptionist, only talk to the men on the interview panel)?”
        Dr. Doll wrote, “no red flags, no yellow flags, just no jingle bells.” I think she was including interviews as well as applications/resumes.

        @Dr. Doll: the big questions are whether your budget will allow for 2 hires at competitive pay/benefits and if this level of staffing shortfall is truly long term.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        This, and not every job requires sparkles. You don’t always need a unicorn. Sometimes you just need someone who will show up and do the work.

        I wish more employers would realize that.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            And conversely plenty of fantastic people don’t kill it in the interview – hire for general goodness of fit, train for skills.

        2. designbot*

          Plus if you already have some sparkly people, then backfilling with more standard fair may leave room for those sparkly people to manage and shine.

        3. Kat in VA*

          Yep. This emphasis on The Most Amazing, Enthusiastic To A Fault, Roger Ramjet, High Speed/Low Drag, I Give My Life To My Company, Ninja Assassin Presidential Quality Candidates Only™ schlock is exhausting.

          Sometimes good enough really is…good enough.

    3. Bee's Knees*

      We’re having that problem too! Doesn’t help that we have some corporate overlords that are micromanagers. We have the guy I posted about down below (crazy) and another that we’ve interviewed. The other one was… fine. I think our recruiter is sick of us, because the last time the position was open, we went through nine or so interviews before we found one.

    4. CheeryO*

      How hot is your field? If the position doesn’t pay competitively, “good enough” might actually be fantastic. You could wait and try to capture some new candidates in a few months, but you’re still working with the same odds, unless something changes before then.

    5. Aquawoman*

      If people are generally underpaid in your company, I’m not sure you can realistically expect stellar candidates in a strong job market.

      1. Booksalot*

        Exactly this. You’re underpaying in this market, and you still came up with two reasonably competent people who would accept an offer? Snag them both and count your blessings.

    6. Autumnheart*

      Hire them both. It just isn’t realistic to expect a rockstar for every hire, and “merely” being competent and effective should hardly be seen as a detriment.

      Secondly, and I don’t say this to be snarky, but YOUR company is the one with the low pay, the short staffing and the uncertain job stability. Two good candidates took the trouble to go through the process. You need people. Hire them.

  17. BeanCat*

    One of the helium balls has come down; I have a surgery date and can finally take some concrete action to prepare for FMLA. I have a month to get everything squared away and ready and hoo. It should be fine. I always feel better when I have actionable items. Now I just have to make sure whoever is covering me is as ready as they can be!

  18. No Tribble At All*

    Based on the necklace from earlier today — best/worst career anniversary presents?

    My first and second years I got a box of mediocre bonbons. My third year, they changed what they did, and people got pens and sticky notes that said “You are appreciated”. Hokey, but useful. Fourth and fifth… big ole nothing. I’m floored that there are places that give you a Tiffany necklace for 5 years! That’s incredible!

    1. MusicWithRocksInIt*

      I worked with a woman who had been with a (very small) company for 20 years – on her anniversary the owner (who had owned the place all 20 years) brought her a cheesecake and announced it would be a combined cake for the 20 year anniversary and her own birthday. Coworker hates cheesecake.

      2. WellRed*

        But I love the awkwardness of the celebrate-ee saying she doesn’t like cheesecake and then sitting there watching everyone else eat it.

      4. Kat*

        Damn I love cheesecake but it’s such a specific thing that I’d never assume other people like. What a weird choice. Go with vanilla or chocolate cake, man.

    2. Adlib*

      The best I’ve gotten is a hardcase carry-on suitcase selected from our “reward store” using a set amount of points for my anniversary (5 years). It’s purple, and I love it! Ended up buying the matching full size case later.

      1. NewHerePleaseBeNice*

        I got a similar suitcase (in bright pink!) as a leaving gift from an old job. Most useful thing EVER – I travel a fair bit and I LOVE it!

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Oh I forgot about rewards catalogs. At the restaurant chain in CA where I worked in the early 1990s, we had that. I got a little socket set and I still have it!

      3. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I super wish I worked at a place that did rewards points and gifts.

        We get a lapel pin at five year intervals and depending on who your direct supervisor is, you may also get a card signed by your coworkers, but that’s the extent of our anniversary recognition.

        1. Hope*

          We used to get lapel pins at 5 years and 5 year intervals thereafter, but when I hit my 5 year mark, that was of course the year they stopped recognizing 5 years and bumped it to starting at 10.

      4. willow19*

        Telescope for 10 years. Suitcase for 5 years. Speaker set for 10 years (different place).

    4. Victoria, Please*

      Heh. We get a teeny little gold-tone lapel pin at 10 years. I think at 25 you get one with a diamond fragment in it. …but we do have awesome benefits, so.

    5. londonedit*

      I’ve never worked anywhere that gave any kind of gift/award every year – here we get an extra day’s holiday after five years and I think another after 10, but everywhere else any awards have been for 10, 15, 20, 25 years etc. There was one place that gave a paid six-week sabbatical in your 10th year (I only made it to six!) which was pretty awesome, but that job sucked so I didn’t really mind not getting to 10 years!

      1. anna green*

        Yeah I’ve worked at 4 different companies and never worked anywhere where they did anything for any anniversary. I mean, I guess you do get more vacation time after a certain amount of years, but I kind of put that in a different category than a gift.

        1. Just Another Manic Millie*

          I would consider it to be a wonderful gift to get more vacation time after I spent a certain number of years working for a company. But I never got anything – not a pin, not a card, not a certificate, not a handshake – absolutely nothing.

      2. CheeryO*

        Same, although I’m in government so it’s understandable. There are some snazzy certificates once you reach 20/25/30/35/40(!) years of service, but nothing before then.

        1. Kat*

          Maybe I’m just a grump but if I give you 40 years and you give me a certificate… just add the $2 that fancy paper cost to the raise I sure as hell hope I’m getting.

        2. Marion Q*

          Heh, the government workers/civil servants in my country get a medal and fancy sounding award when they reach 50(!) years of service. I remember in high school two of my teachers were awarded those medals and it was treated as a huge thing.

    7. KayEss*

      Didn’t affect me directly, but I worked at a struggling higher ed institution for a year in which several of my coworkers had 5- or 10-year anniversaries… instead of the nice catered lunch and modest gift item (I think it was usually a decently nice leather planner or document holder with the university crest), they got a certificate printed from an office laser printer and a handshake from the university president who was running the place into the ground.

      Shockingly, morale never recovered in that office.

    8. Frustrated In DC*

      My firm has not acknowledged any of my years of service yet. (I mean, they do with a paycheck I guess)

    9. Finkfink*

      I got a lapel pin for my 10-year anniversary, but the best present was my supervisor saying I didn’t have to go to the ceremony where they were given out.

    10. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      My place did that. I picked a digital camera for five years. Not a jewelry person. And for ten a smoker/grill. Then by 15 they stopped doing it.
      I still don’t get why the employee is freaking out? Does she think she won’t get one at five years or is she part of the Guacamole Mafia that thinks corporate money should be seen and not spent?

    11. Moray*

      My workplace gives these big, glass engraved…trophies? They are heavy and pointy, and there are a lot of jokes about what good weapons they would make.
      “I got my five year paperweight. If I’m still here for the ten year one, I’m going to use it for what is clearly its intended purpose.”
      “They only want the people who’ve been here for more than five years to survive the Purge.”
      “We’re both getting our five-year this week, so…duel to the death?”

    12. Lena Clare*

      We got – I think it’s changed slightly now – an extra day’s holiday (annual leave) at 5 years, and an extra week annual leave at 10 years. I really must check because my 10th anniversary is next month!

    13. Zephy*

      At OldJob, you’d get a card signed by the CEO on your hire date anniversary, and they recognized years of service at the annual employee appreciation party by reading a list of names and applauding. I didn’t make it to 5 years with them, so I don’t know if the year-5 hireversary card also came with, like, a $50 Visa gift card or extra PTO or whatever, but those were their go-to “prizes” when there was need of them.

    14. Nope, not today*

      Not an anniversary gift, but I worked for a very small company (about 6-9 people over the two years I was there) with a very nice but quirky owner. For administrative assistant appreciation day he brought me and the office manager gifts – whole pineapples, to which he stuck on buckeye candies. Bit odd, but the pineapple was delicious lol

      2. Arts Akimbo*

        Did he stick the buckeye candies in such a way that they were eyes and so the pineapple looked like a fruit friend? If so, +1!

    15. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Fresh this week! For 1 year – $20 gift card to the company store. Ok, so I went and looked around. Figured I’d get a tshirt or 2, depending on prices. basic T is $7.25, not bad. Go to add to the cart – minimum order is 24. Nope!

      Might get a luggage tag. Maybe an umbrella. mostly ignoring it right now.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Was there anyone else hired around the same time so you could combine your orders?
        I’d also mention the $20 vs $24 to someone in HR — sometimes systems raise the minimum purchase without them knowing. (I used to carpool with our former head of HR….she ranted about something very similar one morning.)

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          HR’s in process of revamping the process, and I did ask if unspent gift cards would be transfered over later. We’ll see.

    16. Choux*

      We get gift cards at our 3-, 5- and 10-year anniversaries (then I think not again until 20 years). I got my 3-year one last year and it was either $200 or $250.

    17. ClumsyCharisma*

      For 5 years I picked a carpet steamer. I was a new first time homeowner and I couldn’t have been more excited. I still use it 8 years later.
      For 10 years we switched to an online system and I was able to trade in my points for gift cards and put it towards a nice watch I was eyeing but wouldn’t buy on my own.
      I did also get a food processor from our online system just from “appreciation points.”
      However, I never received my one year anniversary pen that everyone else gets.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think they gave me your pen because I ended up with two pens. (joking)
        Neither one of them would write. I threw them out. (NOT joking)

    18. magnusarchivist*

      I heard about a library where you got a $5 Starbucks gift card on every anniversary. They recently had surprise layoffs during an all staff meeting (!), and yep — the people who were being recognized for anniversaries and being laid at the same time off still got a gift card on their way out.

      1. PharmaCat*

        My previous company did anniversary gifts through a points system with a fulfillment catalog. After 3 years, I had enough points for a lovely set of scissors.

        1. Professional Merchandiser*

          Ha ha!! That’s what I got from my company (scissors.) I think it was at 2 or 3 years? I still use them. Now they give an extra day of PTO at five years, two for 10, I think the maximum is five extra days for 25 years. The ones that just missed the cut-off were hot!!

          1. Professional Merchandiser*

            The previous company I worked for (P&G) gave service pins at 5, 10, ect. years. BUT they sent us awesome gift packages for Christmas. Over the years I received a rolling suitcase with the company logo,(two different years. But that’s okay, I gave one to my son when he went to college) an insulated picnic blanket, a really nice tray with a serving bowl, and other things I’m sure I’m forgetting. Plus they sent a huge assortment of company products. My kids say they still miss the gift packages I got.

      2. Mockingbird*

        My law firm does nice things for the partners/shareholders for each 5 years of service (I know that staff gets appreciation gifts too but I’m not sure what they are, though I’m sure they’re far less extravagant).

        10 years was a glass/chrome desk clock. Okay…
        15 years was a new iPad. I loved it.
        20 years is a $3000-5000 gift that matches the receiving person’s hobbies or interests. I picked out some impressionistic fine art with my husband that I really love. Others have gotten things like camera equipment.

        I’m looking forward to my 25 year anniversary in a couple of years. :)

        1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “20 years is a $3000-5000 gift that matches the receiving person’s hobbies or interests.”

          I’ve been at my job 22 years. It’s a civil service job with the state court system. Never received anything.

          Shit.

          1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

            Well, I don’t know if it’s a typo if it’s true. I mean, I’d lean more toward screwed, but the feeling is the same. In any case, you get a side of guacamole, a tiffany necklace and your own shelf in the office fridge for a week!

    19. LessNosy*

      I just hit 5 years and luckily they had just implemented a new “awards” system (which they call “anniversary gifts”). I got to go online to a website where I could spend my “points” on various things. A lot of it junk, some of it good. I opted for a $100 Amazon gift card and bought myself an air fryer. I call it my “pain and suffering air fryer.”

      I was also instructed by my boss NOT to tell my coworker/closest friend at work about this award because she hit 5 years last year and the awards are not retroactive. I’m assuming she got diddly squat.

      1. Liz*

        that’s usually the case with our anniversary “catalog” there’s a ton of stuff to choose from, but most of it is junky or could be bought cheaply on your own. But there are some nicer things. It changes regularly, so will be interested next year to see what they offer for 20 years.

    20. Liane*

      I got a folding camp chair after 5 years at an international medical device company. It was the only thing good thing (IMO) in the 5 year part of the catalog.

    21. CupcakeCounter*

      My company gives out several gifts a year to all employees. Some are great, some are…less so.
      For birthdays we have received a HUGE, branded stainless steel water bottle (I love mine), a really nice, heavy duty travel bag for toiletries (denim and leather), soft side cooler/lunch bag, blanket, large umbrella
      When we moved into our new building everyone got a lidded coffee cup and water bottle as well as new pens and post-its.
      For employee appreciation week, managers usually bring in donuts or bagels, the company brings in lunch, we’ve received hats and shirts, koozies, and tote bags.
      We also get a turkey at Thanksgiving and a Ham as Christmas from local farms/meat processors with lots of options for people who don’t eat or celebrate to donate their gift (with an appropriate tax deduction for the employee not the company) or select an alternative.

    22. Environmental Compliance*

      Not entirely for the employee’s anniversary, but for the state agency I used to work at, the agency celebrated its 150 or something-th anniversary of existing by sending every employee a coffee mug. It’s actually a nice mug, and has a nice logo and whatnot….but if you hold it in your right hand using the normal mug handle, the logo is facing inwards, not outwards. We were all pretty entertained.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        They gave you left handed mugs! The image on my mugs are always facing the wrong direction.

    23. Nita*

      We don’t get anything for personal anniversaries, but everyone gets gifts for five-year company anniversaries. My favorites – a good-sized, comfortable work bag, and an insulated backpack (great for carrying samples and equipment, also doubles as a picnic bag on the weekends).

    24. Aquawoman*

      I’m a fed, so I get a framed certificate, a little pin and a round of applause, and I’m surprised they spring for the pin. But as I said on that letter, I get great bennies, so I’m all good.

        1. Jaid*

          One year, they mailed my embossed certificate to my home address, because they couldn’t figure out what my department was.

          What’s applause, again?

    25. Admin of Sys*

      5 yr mark at prev job was a pen, pretty nice quality. 10 yr mark /had/ been a glass paperweight that no one liked or cared about, but we actually managed to get them to switch over to a branded fleece blanket, which was /awesome/ because the office ran at about 65F most of the year.
      Current place gives really nice lunch out w/ director as the 5 yr gift? Which I’m kind of 50/50 on. It’s a /really/ nice lunch, but gift=time with boss’s boss is a little odd to me. *shrugs*

    26. The Original K.*

      I got to pick from a catalog at one place and I chose a coffee grinder (I tend to like gifts that are practical). Not the sexiest gift but it’s something I actually use. That was my second-year anniversary gift (the first year was a certificate, which isn’t a gift).

      I did some contract work at a place that gives time off for milestone anniversaries (every 5 years), which I think is a good gift.

    27. Anon for this*

      Where I work, on certain anniversary dates, vacation accrual increases. I think it’s on 3, 5, 10 and 15 years … I currently accrue 12 hours of vacation monthly, and I think my next increase will be 15 or 16 hours monthly. And beginning at 10 years of employment, and every year thereafter, one receives career service payments for their anniversary. The amounts are incremental (10-14 years, 15-19, etc.), and those increased this year.

    28. Elizabeth West*

      BEST: A $50 Visa gift card (I got these at Exjob from year 2 on). The first one helped me get a Kindle Fire, which I’d wanted for a long time. :)

      WORST: Also Exjob — a stupid acrylic plaque that said Congrats on your first year of service. I found it shoved in a drawer the other day while sorting and threw it out.

      SECOND WORST: At OldExjob, five years netted you a jacket with the company logo on it. When I started, they were really nice burgundy cloth jackets, but by the time I reached that milestone, it was an ugly-ass grey *plastic* windbreaker. I never wore it and it went into the donation box.

    29. Say It Ain't So*

      For 5 years, I got a little badge reel that said “5 year employee.” It was useful and I was pretty disappointed when it broke after 3 years. I found out several months later that I could have gone up to HR and had it replaced.

      For 10 years and every 5 years after that, we get to order from a catalog. There were some really random items (I honestly debated some kind of power tool for a while), but I ended up choosing the set of 4 Mikasa stemless wine glasses.

    30. Former Govt Contractor*

      Best – $2,000 + 20 yellow roses + an outing after work on my 20th anniversary with big lawfirm
      Worst – nothing
      Funniest – Not an anniversary gift, but my current boss wanted to acknowledge me for good work so he put in for 20 points I could use to buy something at our online store, thinking 20 points would = $200. Nope. Equaled $10. Though he learned this and apologized, he never made up for it.

    31. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      At one of my previous jobs, I was there while my boss was celebrated for her 10th year with the company.

      They gave her a $15 pen in a cheap case, both with the company logo.

    32. Nessun*

      I got nothing at 5 years (they forgot), and switched offices (same company) at 10 years so HR didn’t know who to inform and swept it under the rug – again nothing. At 15 years I got $250 added to my paycheque (and of course promptly taxed). So, could have been worse, and HR has improved their processes for others based on my feedback.

    33. Liz*

      In my PT retail job, for my 5 year anniversary, even as a PT associate, i got a gift card. To Tiffany. For $50. Um thank you? I mean yes it was a nice gesture but really almost nothing aside from maybe a scarf, is that cheap there. And most people weren’t making enough $$ to be able to add to that to get something nice.

    34. Susan*

      Just passed 10 years at my company and got an iPad. Took it to the Apple store, paid a little extra to increase the storage and choose a different color. Love it.

    35. Regular, but anon for this*

      I selected a Coach portfolio/laptop bag from the catalog for my 10th anniversary (although I hear it’s now just a check, which is fine!), and at 15 years you can get 2 business class tickets anywhere from the company’s air miles account, plus $1500 spending money! THAT was a great trip!

    36. DukeOfPearl*

      My sister got a fire pit from the catalog for her 5 year. Best anniversary gift ever. We’ve eaten so many damn toasted marshmallows.

    37. Liz*

      while not anniversary, my company is big on giving out branded items for various things, but they are the cheapest crap you can order. we’ve gotten pens, water bottles, insulated bags etc. All really poor quality and most of which i donate. the bags are great since i will put stuff IN them and donate along with the items i’m donating.

      And most of it is useless stuff too; that no one really will use.

    38. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Best was the gold earrings I picked out of the catalog for my 5th year anniversary… until one of them broke because they were so flimsy. Darned good thing I have an uneven number of ear piercings so I can wear the remaining one.

    39. VioletCrumble*

      We get the option for Tiffany/Visa Gift Cards. It used to start at 15 years. The year we had our 10th – they gave everyone from 5-9 years $25 gift cards from a local bookstore and we got $35 gift cards to same. On our 11th year – they started offering the 10 years the Tiffany/Visa Gift Card options – I think it’s the equivalent of $150. So you can’t please everyone I guess.. sigh..

    40. Engineer Girl*

      Favorite: a computer messenger bag with company logo on it. I used it for years.
      Best: sapphire ring
      Most disappointing: a pearl necklace that broke as I put it on

      1. No Tribble At All*

        Daaaaaang a sapphire ring? Did you pick it out from a catalog, or was that the default?

    41. Apt Nickname*

      For my tenth anniversary I was given a choice from a catalog and ended up going with a large wheeled duffle bag. But because I’d waffled between that and a Dustbuster, I couldn’t remember what I’d chosen and it was a nice surprise when it was dropped off at my desk.

    42. A Tired Queer*

      I’ve been at my higher ed job for like… 7 years full time now, and the nicest (and only) thing I ever got was a surprise free lunch when I changed roles. It was from my old co-workers to wish me well. Very unofficial.
      A colleague who has been here for something like 40 years had a department sponsored pizza party. No official acknowledgement from management, no gift or anything.
      Tbh I think the only time I’ve seen someone acknowledged by name for their years of service has been if they died while they were employed here. So. That’s cheery.

    43. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      At OldJob for my 10th anniversary I got a nice Boombox. However, I left it in my office for a few weeks until I could get it home. Then 9/11 happened (I worked across the street from the World Financial Center). Our building got some damage. When they let us return to retrieve some stuff, the Boombox had disappeared. I think one of the first responders or some other worker may have taken it–And I didn’t mind at all.

    44. Government employee*

      This whole thread makes me sad. The only thing my workplace ever gives us is permission to wear jeans on employee appreciation day.

    45. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      My organization only does gifts for milestone anniversaries 5, 10, 15… Each milestone the gift amount goes up so it’s $50 for 5 years, $75 for 10…and you spend it by going online to a gift card catalog company and picking a store to redeem your gift code. At my 5-year I picked Zappos and got some new shoes and at the ten-year I picked Amazon and bought an area rug. We used to get a card from the university president for every year but when we got a new president he decided to do away with that. I totally understand, even though they were generic and preprinted that was a lot of cards. We also get acknowledged in an HR email newsletter: “Thank you and congratulations to the following employees for their years of service: 5 years…name name name”

    46. Lucy Preston*

      19th got a cake. 20th didn’t even get a “happy 20th”. 22nd got a pair of earrings that are nice but look like one of those “Buy $100 of merchandise and get these diamonique earrings for only $20”.

    47. Gumby*

      Most of my jobs: nothing except additional vacation days on various schedules

      Best: 1 month sabbatical at 2/3 pay. (Available every 5th year of employment there.)

    48. Autumnheart*

      I just hit 15 years at my company . I think I got a printed certificate after year 1. Year 5, I got an inexpensive but cute watch. Year 10, I could choose between a few gifts, but I honestly don’t remember what I chose. They recently restructured their awards so that now we go to a website (similar to what someone posted above) with a catalog, with ALL sorts of stuff. I could’ve gotten a really extensive box of Omaha steaks, or a set of luggage, or a generator, or a Trek mountain bike, it was really comprehensive.

      One of the options was $450 worth of reward points, so I picked that and then used it to get a fancy new cable modem and a router. I still have $50 left so I’ll probably upgrade my Echo Dots to third generation. I think that’s a pretty sweet gift, personally. Certainly beats a cheesecake.

    49. WooHoo*

      At 5 years, I picked a fall-ish jacket with our agency’s logo on it. For 10, I chose a laptop bag (pleather).

      Once we hit five years here, we receive “longevity” pay in our first check of the new year. It’s not a lot, but I’ll take an extra $100 pretax anytime. At 10 years, I think it’s up to $200. I’d prefer it be added to my base pay so it’s a long-term benefit, but I’ll take it!

    50. Arjay*

      No Tiffany here. We do celebrate 1 year, 5 years, and 10 years with gifts like pens, mugs, and polo shirts. Non-gift years (2 years, etc.) are recognized with a certificate. And usually treats.

    51. Aphrodite*

      Community college. Central coastal California.

      A cheap piece of paper framed in a cheap black frame saying you’ve been here for xx years.

      I’ve immediately trashed each one I got.

    52. Beatrice*

      First year – a key ring – a nice, solid metal one with the company logo. I still have it but it’s my junk drawer random key ring now.
      5th year – I chose a nice crystal vase from a catalog. I still use it.
      10th year – I chose a silver necklace from a catalog. It came with a company logo pendant that I removed and discarded. I also got a nice lightweight zip-up jacket – everyone with an anniversary multiple of 5 that year got one.
      Next year is 15.

    53. just a random teacher*

      Worst: when I worked at The School of Evil Bees in my 20s, I quit without anything else lined up at the end of my second year. (I resigned early enough in the year to get the “early notice bonus” but with and effective date at the end of the school year, so they had lots of warning that I was leaving.)

      They threw a “retirement party” for all departing staff. There were speeches and presents celebrating our “retirements”, despite that fact that a majority of us were in our 20s and obviously not actually retiring. They gave us a framed photograph of the school, some mementos to help us remember the neighborhood, and a live plant.

      In my current school, which is at least 80% less full of Evil Bees (although I suspect there may be a nest at the district office – hopefully they’ll spray it over the summer), the union threw a 3-year party for all people who made it through the 3 years of probation to get on regular contract status (this comes with extra job protections). I once again got a live plant. (There was also a raffle, with the idea that everyone would “win” something in it eventually, but I have an audio processing disability and cannot hear numbers called out very well if they’re not careful to repeat them several times while looking at all parts of the room so I can lip-read for extra info, so I apparently missed my number when it was called. Also, listening for numbers that way all evening is totally exhausting for me so I probably just wasn’t parsing any more after 20 or so were called out.) I got one of the remaining prizes as they were packing up to leave and realized I hadn’t gotten anything, which I no longer recall specifically. A mirror, maybe? At least I got to hang out with some fellow teacher I actually like and talk.

      Next year will be my five year anniversary. I’m sure there’s nothing official, since I’ve read our union contract and there isn’t anything in there, but I wonder if there will be anything small and school level since several of us were all hired on at the same time so we’ll all be hitting 5 years next year. Maybe I’ll do something if there’s nothing planned by the social committee. (It’s so nice to work someplace where the idea of inviting co-workers over to your house sounds vaguely pleasant rather than like a terrible idea.) If so, I will NOT be giving out live plants.

    54. Booksalot*

      My company gives lapel pins that are different designs based on your years of service.

      The terrible part of it is that some managers consider them mandatory to wear, so people get written up for not having them on. Not just for high-level meetings, either, I mean just rotting in your cubicle all day.

    55. The Phleb*

      We used to get points for recognition and had a book to choose items from but they stopped that program however they ARE still continuing it for milestone recognition (least this year!). I hit 20 years and received enough points combined with previous saved points to get a fantastic pot and pan set (top of the line and very expensive). Was probably the best gift I could have gotten! (I really needed them…I was down to one fry pan, a small pot and a medium pot…very sad!)

      1. Delta Delta*

        I also got a set of high-end pots & pans using points. Wouldn’t have spent the money on it, but with points it felt like a great treat. It was about 17 years ago and I still use them.

    56. Lepidoptera*

      Summer job, white collar office work environment
      I got a small hot/cold lunch bag in blues (fave colour) filled with small chocolate bars, a branded pen and pencil and a very tall branded mug on my last day.
      I loved it. I still use the mug and bag.

    57. RobotWithHumanHair*

      Worked for 17 years at my old job. Think I got a luncheon or dinner or something for my 15th year. And, like, a glass dish with the university’s logo on it. That was about it.

  19. I See Real People*

    I got an email from Linked In saying that I came up in a search that my company initiated for my position. I’m the only one here with that position. This has happened twice. When I asked my boss about it, he said it must be a ‘mistake’ because he doesn’t know anything about it. It would only be the HR person doing this search. He’s lied before to others about unrelated things, so I’m still uneasy.

    3. BethDH*

      Could it be something related to, say, benchmarking pay or checking out something else related to job structures rather than specifically hiring/job opps?

  20. Bee's Knees*

    Had a guy come in for an interview. He was very animated, and a little long-winded. Fine, whatever. He’s probably nervous. Super qualified, and the interview goes well. I gave him my card, and Marvin’s. He emails that night to thank us, which was nice. Not so nice, he attaches his resume again, and the thank you is the first paragraph. The next 10 paragraphs of 500 or so words is him restating everything that we talked about, and everything on his resume. It included not one, but two (!) bullet point lists. He’s eager. A little much, but he’s really qualified, so we will look past it. My boss emails back, because that is the polite thing to do, and tells him he will hear back from us in the next week or so. That was Thursday.

    Tuesday, he emails again, and it is what amounts to a manifesto. A short excerpt – “Too be honest….shortly after our meeting, I was elated and have felt since then, the urgency to research all my notes about numerous solutions and future opportunities which I would like the chance to put in practice with You to enable us to become a valuable asset to this company from this moment forward… [the ellipses are his, and he had a super long paragraph break here] Since our initial meeting, I have continuously felt drawn to the idea of being part of your outstanding culture diversity and core values that you share @ the [company name].”

    I realized what bothers me about it, and it’s that the entire thing reads like a scam letter. Act now, or you will lose out on the 27 million dollars being held in a trust! It did, however, only include one bullet point list. Despite the fact that this dude is very qualified, there are more red flags here than a bull fighting contest. There’s such a thing as too much, and he is it. If you hadn’t heard anything, I could see reaching out after a week was up, just to check in. But he had, and if he’s this high maintenance and over the top in the interview process, I don’t really want to know what he’s like to work with.

    1. londonedit*

      I don’t know if it’s just me, but there’s no way I could work with someone who would send emails like that…half of it doesn’t even make sense! Just send me the TPS report, Fergus!

      1. Bee's Knees*

        And that was one of the better parts. I wish I could reprint both the ones he sent, cause woo boy. They are something.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Oh dear, yes, there’s something offputting about that, and also shows that he doesn’t understand professional norms very well. Is this how he would proceed with clients? External partners? Hmm.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Just so you know, I’m blaming all the crazy that’s happened here the last two weeks on you. Everything was fine, and you released the hellmouth energies into the world. I think at least half of them have settled here.

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          That’s fair. Let’s just hope that it will all eventually disperse, and this isn’t the work crazy version of kudzu.

          1. Bee's Knees*

            Mine is always a little crazy, but it’s really upped its game this week. I was going to blog about it and then put it in the open thread today, but haven’t had time. A preview for next week – a fire, sexual harassment, possible unwanted job changes, four different visits from vendors, and not one, not two, but three actual, literal temper tantrums.

            1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

              I want to read this blog. Where the three temper tantrums from the SAME person or THREE SEPARATE ADULTS?

              1. Bee's Knees*

                Two adults, two tantrums from the same guy.
                I don’t want to get stuck in moderation, but it’s beeskneesblogs .blogspot and then the . and the web address that starts with c and ends with om.

                1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

                  Hooray! Also: Adult tantrums are the pinnacle of train wreck behavior.

        2. Aquawoman*

          Mercury is in retrograde for the past couple weeks. I know that makes me sound a little kooky but I swear it’s a thing.

            1. Kat in VA*

              I am doing the equivalent of pulling together a “two day 100 person wedding event with a formal dinner in between” but it’s for work…

              Time frame? Less than 14 days.

              Yeah, Mercury is in retrograde and there was an eclipse in there too, I think.

              I’m so ready just to quit. I actually told my boss I had a fantasy of writing him an email (while I was working around 8:00PM the other night) saying, “Dear Bossman, please accept this email as notice of my resignation, effective immediately.” (I didn’t tell him the other part I fantasized about – the ending. “Fuck you, Kat.”

              He thought it was funny. Me, a little less so. He lives for this kind of pressure. I don’t. I live, eat, think, sleep, and dream work. I’m offloading as much as I can (which, tbh, isn’t much) and I feel like I’m drowning. I just got a raise and it’s kinda nice, but I’m realizing extra money does not offset the feeling of being three steps behind every hour, every day.

              I keep saying to myself “Just get through this training/offsite” and it will be better…except there are three more major offsites in the next two months. I suck at event planning and I don’t enjoy it. Also, somewhere in there, I have to do my regular job, oh, and support three other executives besides my crazy Bossman who takes up literally 90% of my time.

              /rant off, *shakes fist at sky*

    5. Youth*

      Makes me think of people who have asked you out one time and start trying to establish a high level of emotional intimacy right away. It’s like, “Whoa dude, we barely know each other. Why are you emotionally invested this early?”

      1. Bee's Knees*

        He went on and on in a very confusing spiral of his qualifications and how he would use them to make changes. Like, that’s great, but we have enough stuff flowing down from corporate with the changes they want to make. We don’t need it coming from you too.

        1. Psyche*

          Someone who comes in with a list of things they want to change is very off-putting. Maybe wait a few weeks and get used to how things are done now before deciding you know better.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yup. I actually was brought into my current company to be a sort of change agent (along with my grandboss, who only started five months before me), and I still waited a month before initiating training sessions with people and drafting guides.

          2. Librarian of SHIELD*

            This. If you don’t work there yet, you don’t know what the current processes are and what the pros and cons could be. If you don’t know those things, why are you already so firmly set on changing things?

        2. Auntie Social*

          Yeah, the changes bit would make me hit the brakes hard. He’s supposed to adopt your way of thinking, not think that he’s in charge and changes will be MADE! Well, that, and the Nigerian prince thing. . . .

        3. magnusarchivist*

          this sounds so much like a friend of mine who is a truly nice and warm person, but just tries WAY too hard to establish an earnest emotional connection in his cover letters. I tried to warn him off it, but he sees his warmth and earnestness as a strength and just keeps doing it. He is employed now, though, so /shrug.

        4. tesserae*

          Do Not Hire This Person. He sounds like one of those people who’d follow you into the bathroom to make his point.

      2. CheeryO*

        I had the same thought. Those people make me physically recoil, and I can’t imagine working with someone with that level of “enthusiasm.” PASS.

    6. Ann Perkins*

      10 paragraphs for a thank you email? Pass. He sounds like the kind of employee who will take half a day to complete a 15 minute task, and annoy several coworkers in the process.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Yeah, and this was for a supervisory position. I don’t think so. It would be bad enough if I had to deal with it, but I’m not going to deal with him AND the people on his crew that don’t like him.

      2. Shirley Keeldar*

        Not only this–he sounds like the kind of employee who has no respect for others’ time. He expects you to read all that when a quick one-paragraph “thanks, that was great, love to hear from you” would do? He’ll be in people’s offices talking their ears off instead of letting them work. He’ll be sending them page-long e-mails that they’ll have to delve through looking for the one answer they actually needed. Avoid. Avoid. Avoid!

    8. Kat*

      I once worked at a very prestigious school, you know the one, and we’d get so many crazies apply for our post doc program (so 30ish, not 18ish) because they were obsessed with our name brand. We required 2 letters of recommendation and accepted UP TO BUT NO MORE THAN THREE (written in our application in three places). Once interviewed a very high energy dude, nice but felt a little salesy, and outstanding experience. His first two letters came in, both great. A third and fourth came in, I was mildly annoyed (we told you three times man.). The fifth through seventh were all weaker connections or his employees. By the time we got to 11, he went from strong consider to automatic reject. It became a running joke with my boss (who I was afraid of and didn’t usually joke around with). His 26th letter was from a senator he had met twice and who knew his uncle well and had heard excellent things about him.

      He emailed me after he was rejected telling me how disappointed he was, how he felt like he was a perfect fit, and asking if I could get any feedback from the faculty on why he was rejected (I was 23 and an admin). I drafted an email saying nothing but “dude, way too many letters.” My boss thought it was hilarious. I think she assumed I wouldn’t sent it. I might have. The next year he only sent in eight. He was not offered a position.

      1. Agent J*

        The effort alone it takes to get TWENTY SIX recommendation letters makes me tired. Love the determination but too much.

      2. BethDH*

        Yeah, one or two extras I could totally imagine happening if they are coming directly from referees — I have a somewhat disorganized advisor who writes great letters but sometimes misses out on things like remembering to answer emails or log in to the correct system to submit things. I have definitely been in positions where I asked an additional person just be sure. But I can’t even fathom that kind of excess!

    9. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I used to teach a work skill training class for the community. It was really common for people to sign up for the class, and submit an application for that skill job title at the same time, so we’d be ready to hire them when they finished the class.

      I had a man in his 30s sign up for the class and need help with some of the online learning, which was really common because the job interfaces were confusing. He sent me several long, rambling emails about his personal thoughts on it, how things had changed since he took the class earlier in his career, where he was in his career and his life, etc. This got my spidey senses tingling that he was creepy. I spoke to my boss about my concerns, and he told me to ignore it and continue with the class.

      When I got to class, the dude was even creepier in person than I’d expected based on the emails. And he would interrupt me to correct me with the “wrong” answers. He also refused to take direction and would argue. We had some teenagers in the class, and because he was so creepy and set my spidey senses off, I assigned him to a practical team that was all adults. Which was fortunate, because during one of those practical tests he managed to sexually assault a teammate by groping them.

      I did everything I could to get him blacklisted from hire at our company.

      Take this sign as a warning, and do not hire him.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This is exactly how I picture OP’s applicant to be IRL.
        He does not understand boundaries and, worse yet, has no intention of learning.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Is this a writing position? Because if yes…that puts a lot of work on the editor(s)!

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Nope. Nope. N.O.P.E!

      His urgency is screaming “And when I finally get the job, I will explode in your face like a gremlin in the microwave!” RUUUUUUUUUUN GURL RUUUUUUUUUUN!

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Lol, yeah. I told the manager he’d be working for that I was not going to deal with that level of crazy voluntarily.

    12. Observer*

      there are more red flags here than a bull fighting contest

      Yes. Or maybe a Mayday Parade in the Soviet Union.

      In addition to all of the other crazy, this person can’t write any better that a second grader (if that well.) I can’t imagine trying to work with him on ANYTHING.

    13. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      OMG I have a college student similar to this…he’s very nice and polite but overly enthusiastic and a bit overly confident in his intellectual abilities (He’s probably smart, but the kind that has to show just how smart he is by quoting Plato and randomly throwing out some latin words — maybe, they might be just made up). I thought he’s “extra” but generally likable until… He submitted 4 essays and some artwork to a student literary publication I work on. We clearly state in the submission guidelines that all submissions may be edited by the editorial staff and that by submitting they agree to this without any further input. Well we didn’t publish all of his submissions, so high insult #1, and a word was changed in one of his essays that he doesn’t agree with (however, the word he used isn’t correct by definition and the replacement is). Some of the highlights of his email tantrum: “I would like this to be corrected as swiftly & effectively as possible because my reputation as an aspiring professional/thinker and my intellectual valuation is on the line.” and “I’m an aspiring philosopher & I don’t want my earliest stages of development to be second-rate when in fact I wrote a world-class piece.” His solution: “pull the magazine from the shelves as soon as possible and reprint (presumably intennible [sic])” or “Print and attach a disclaimer to every magazine in print (doable, but not efficient)” or “reprint the article in next year’s edition (in the centerfold, where It [sic] was intended on being placed in this edition) with a disclaimer box/apology. I have been informed that this is standard practice & is good enough to make me satisfied.”

      So, no on all of those. I would be wary of hiring someone like him.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        So here is a person who is so impressed with themselves, that you don’t have to be impressed. He’s impressed enough for the two of you.

      4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Ah yes, I can smell the professional thinking from here. It’s intennible.

    14. pentamom*

      The vibe I get from this is an unstable person. This isn’t just not knowing job seeking norms, this sounds to me (though I am highly unqualified) like a genuinely obsessive person.

  21. Justme, The OG*

    One of my coworkers is leaving at the end of the month. I’m so very happy for her, this is a great opportunity. But now we have to hire a replacement, and that part is what I am not looking forward to.

    1. The Rat-Catcher*

      We are in the same boat! It’s a great move for her, but she has a ton of institutional knowledge that we probably won’t get in her replacement, so Other Coworker and I are a bit nervous.

      1. Justme, The OG*

        Yes. This employee’s skillset will be hard to find in someone else. I know I can take some of the slack, and I may ask my supervisor if she would like me to since I’m in my slow time. Until we hire someone else, that is. Because I’m not taking that on full time without a pay increase (and I’m not qualified for her position or else I would apply).

  22. ThatGirl*

    Three days in to my new job – a department switch at the same company. I’m happy! I think it’s going to be a great fit! I have plenty to learn but it’s right in my wheelhouse, just have to get my brain back into copywriter mode. And honestly I am extremely proud of myself for going for this opportunity. Thanks AAM for all the confidence. :)

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Congrats! Did they tell you why they were switching you so soon? (I mean, it’s great since it’s in your wheelhouse, but I would want to know what the catalyst for that was.)

      1. ThatGirl*

        Oh, ha, I wasn’t clear on that – this is the one I applied to roughly two months ago and got the offer for a month or so ago. It just took a little while for the move to actually happen. And now it has!

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          So you’re 3 days into a new job that was an internal transfer? Those can be great!

  23. International Development*

    What courses or training in international development or the WASH sector would you recommend for an almost mid-level person to check out? I’m looking for things that would be online or in the DC area. I’ve worked at my current position for 1.5 years in research and administration, and have had my MPH for three years already.

    1. Loubelou*

      It’s hard to give more specific recommendations without knowing what you’ve already studied but there are three key skills needed for all international development professionals: project management (results-based), finance management and people management. Last mile learning have good introductory courses for these, all free. If you want more intense learning and professional qualifications then FMDPro and PMDPro (Project/Finance Management for Development Professionals) are good quality and we’ll recognised. You can do online (cheap/free) or in-person courses ($1000) through Humentum – in fact I see they have courses in DC coming up in August.
      Other key topics: Monitoring and Evaluation, Fraud and Corruption, Safeguarding, Disibility Inclusive Development, Participatory Methodologies. This last one should be done in person but I’m afraid I don’t know of any training providers in the US (I’m in Ireland). They must exist though.

      Humentum have a great library of other courses and resources! And the Red Cross have a training site with a lot of online courses too, and all of theirs are free.

      Links in separate comment.

      1. Loubelou*

        Humentum PMD Pro/FMD Pro: https://www.humentum.org/training/humentum-d-pro (bear in mind if you are familiar with the concepts you can teach yourself online through Last Mile Learning then take the exam for $100)

        Lingos (also called Last Mile Learning) free online training in finance, project management and people management: https://lingos.org/last-mile-learning/

        IFRC learning portal – free online training in every development topic, varying quality: ifrc.csod.com

        1. Jadelyn*

          Yes, but specifically calling out California folks who can’t drive based on a case on Federal law coming out of South Carolina doesn’t make much sense.

    2. Aquawoman*

      I am not 100% sure that a person who chooses not to drive would have standing to bring a complaint, though. This case was decided under the ADA re a person with a disability that prevented driving.

  25. second chance at interview I bombed*

    I’ve written about this before, but I recently went through the hiring process for a position I applied for two years ago and didn’t get (in government, panel interview, eligibility list, the whole nine yards). I found out on Wednesday that not only did I pass my oral exam (the interview round), I friggin’ ranked number one on the eligibility list!

    I don’t have an offer yet, but management told me there are six vacancies, so I imagine I will be moving onward and upward soon! Just want to thank the community here for helping me along the way. Woo!

      1. second chance at interview I bombed*

        I read about that story earlier this week and it made me so stinking mad that he was shitcanned for that! That dude rules and I would love to work for someone like that.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Right? I mean, he should have stopped sending the emails to the people who complained that they didn’t like it, but he was actually sending out inspirational quotes from Pac’s songs, not the profanity laced ones. This is write up territory, not firing worthy (though they were trying to get him to retire earlier, so I gather there was more to the story and they just used his Tupac fixation as a cover).

          Anyway, congratulations to you!

  26. learning and growing*

    I am in a weird/frustrating situation. My office does project feasibility assessments, and I’m the lead assessor for a project that did not originally look feasible. The clients were asking me (in a meeting that included my boss) how the assessment would change if various inputs from them were different. I could tell they wanted to game the system, but instead of just telling them “no, go make only realistic adjustments to your inputs and then I’ll get back to you,” I looked at my boss and thought from her face/body language that she was totally fine with this. (She’s usually pretty quick to jump in if she thinks projects are trying something hinky, even though it’s technically “my” meeting, and it has happened in the past that she approves things that seem weird to me.) So against my better judgement, I ran the hypothetical adjustments, and the next day they magically discovered that their actual real correct inputs just happened to be exactly what they needed to make it over the feasibility threshold!

    Then my boss told me later that I shouldn’t run hypothetical adjustments like that, but she let me as a “learning experience,” because I wouldn’t understand the problem with it otherwise. I’m annoyed because I knew *exactly* where it was going from the beginning, but I deferred to (what I thought was) her judgment. (I don’t know whether I misread her and she just didn’t stop me, or if she intentionally gave me go-ahead signals so that I would have this “learning experience.”) Do I just call it a learning experience about trusting my own judgment more, instead of the lesson she thought I needed about shady clients, and let it go?

    I’m worried I’ll end up with egg on my face when I present the assessment to other stakeholders, and I’m frustrated that my boss thought I was so naïve, and I’m annoyed that now I’m sort of stuck with these bogus inputs, and I don’t know how to untangle all these different concerns and figure out which, if any, would be useful to talk to her about. Help!

    1. Aquawoman*

      A couple thoughts. One, yes, trust your own judgment. Every time I’ve listened to someone else over my own (strong) better judgment, I’ve regretted it. Two, are you stuck with the adjustments? Or can you present them like, they made some adjustments but they’re not feasible, or something.

      I totally get your annoyance about what your boss did, and her follow-up was worse (if experience is the best teacher, then let the experience do the teaching and maybe just say, yeah, people will try to game the system if you give them an opening; her version was like, ha! sucker!). If you talk to her, I think I’d ask if she responded this way because of an issue she sees with your work.

    2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      There’s a difference between letting your toddler run across the living room and fall on the carpet and letting your toddler fall down the basement steps. You are not a toddler, you are someone who should have had the higher up step in.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Oh man, I’m going to be in a similar position in a few weeks where I’m nominally in charge of making feasibility determinations but I have a senior colleague who’ll be in the room too. And a few people are going to push for an option that is just. not. feasible but it appears cheap! (Spoiler: it’s not cheap either)

      I think in this exact case, you have two possible options: 1) push back with the client about their provided hypotheticals and how were they so different from the initial inputs – basically make them walk back how they got to the threshold. Not sure if this is really an option as they could just claim the later numbers are totally real and you kind of have to take their word for it.

      2) Let it run its course and fail at a later stage. You only suspect they were attempting to game the system (and it definitely sounds like you’re right but it’s hard to prove), so go with a straightforward approach. You can only work with what you’re given. If they want to provide garbage inputs, that is going to go badly for them eventually but should not cost you anything but more time. At the very least, caveat the assessment with the stakeholders that the final numbers used were derived in a later iteration and only just made it across the threshold (stress that it didn’t meet the threshold originally). Your assessment here is objective and clear.

    4. designbot*

      It sounds to me like she may not realize how much you’re reading her for these subtle go-or-no-go assessments. I’d come clean to her that you feel you two often have slightly different judgements and you’ve come to rely on reading her in this way, and this experience has made you realize that not being explicit about doing that has some pitfalls. Lay it out and ask her how you two can read each other better on these issues.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Yes, you should talk to her about the fact that you only agreed to the hypothetical because it appeared that she was encouraging you to do so.

        She probably believed that she was indicating to you that you should be the one to make the call. And you received that as meaning you should do the adjustment.

        Y’all need to figure out a way to use your words. If you can’t take a sidebar to confer quietly while the clients are in the room, then you need to agree in advance about the parameters and where you are in charge or not.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I think I would make it a point to tell her, “I read your silence as I should do this. I did not think it was a good idea, but I did it because I thought you wanted me to do it. Going forward I will just speak my thoughts and I will trust you to use your words to agree or disagree with me. In the end, I try to be a good employee and I PREFER to do what the boss and company want me to do. Please use your words to tell me how best to help you and the company. As you can see, I don’t do my best work with non-verbal cues.”

      She may be used to having people speak their minds and she may actually prefer people to have well-thought out opinions and say those opinions out loud.
      Another good talking point for the two of you might be to discuss the limits of your authority. It’s okay to say that every boss has preferences and you would like to stick with her preferences. “What types of decisions to you prefer I do on my own and when would you like me to loop you in?”

      Honestly, from this one example I find your boss annoying. I hope this game of “Guess what I want you to do” does not continue. I would be sorely tempted to tell her not to waste my time like that. I guess I would say, “I cost the company money in terms of my labor and I would prefer to give the company the most I can for the dollars it pays me.”

  27. Gidget*

    I could use some perspective on my work situation (or maybe just a chance to vent, sorry this is so long). My job is a bad fit. I wish I had known about AAM when I was job searching. I am nearing the six-month mark in my position as a fed contractor. It seemed like a great fit on paper combining a lot of my skills even though it was tangential to my background (i.e. a STEM-related support position but not my field).

    I have struggled here for several reasons, but the biggest issue is that I have NO WORK TO DO. Within three months I had completed literally all the tasks on my statement of work except those that were time-bound to specific points in the annual cycle. To keep myself busy I have been creating all sorts of additional non-critical tasks, i.e. overly documenting everything I do, creating a database that no one is likely to use after I leave, doing a lot of research and training online about anything remotely related to my job, etc. But I am still left with ridiculous amounts of time to fill and am expected to be here a full 8 ½ hours every day.
    I have asked my direct supervisor multiple times for additional tasks or projects to work on. They insist they have many things I can do; they just need to figure out what to hand off. When my direct supervisor does come up with a task it is menial and takes me an hour at most (usually more like 15 minutes). I have also mentioned this to the department head… and still nothing. I thought they were assigning me menial tasks because they had concerns with my performance, but the minimal work I have done has been praised verbally as excellent by both my direct supervisor and the director.

    My actual work feels pretty pointless with no larger goal in mind. I mentioned to my direct supervisor I was struggling because I wasn’t sure if I was meeting their expectations or working to the larger goals they had in mind. The response was that this position had no long-term goals and we would just be focusing on short-term goals (this seems VERY short-sighted given the work we are supposed to be doing.)

    I am looking for ways out of this position, but they keep talking about all the things I will be doing in a year (time-bound activities that repeat annually, and which I have already planned to death because I have nothing else to do). I will admit I am worried about leaving because I think they will give me a hard time about being here for such a short period of time. Add to that, the pay/benefits are quite good. This job has added to my general lack of self-confidence and has lead me to fear that whatever path I take next might be a disaster as well, so maybe I should just stay.

    So, I guess after that long-winded post: has anyone been in a similar position, how did you deal? Also how does one deal with discussions about long-term projects which you are unlikely to be around to see to fruition? How do you keep a bad job from polluting your career/next-job outlook (besides counseling, already got that covered)?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ve been in my position for more than a year and still struggle with this. I did learn recently that the reason I don’t have enough work to do is because the person who was previously in this position was incredibly lazy and best friends with the former supervisor. Apparently she would complain about having too much to do and the supervisor would take things off her workload and give it to someone else. This imbalance has yet to be corrected though my current supervisor is aware of it and actively working to fix it.

      In the meantime, I spend a lot of time listening to audio books and podcasts. I spread out my work so that I generally have something I can work on.

      1. Gidget*

        Glad to know that there are other people in a similar boat. One of my related worries is that they actually think it takes me a really long time to do these simple projects/tasks– but then I realize because they lack my specific knowledge/skills it probably would take them a full week to do some of the tasks it takes me a day to do. *sigh*

        I have tried spreading out work. I definitely do a few things then take a blog break and then back to that task, because otherwise I would be even more board. In this case the lost time due to task switching is a benefit!

        I too have taken to the listening to lots of podcasts… I hope your work gets balanced out soon!

    2. Mindy St Claire*

      I was in an extremely similar situation 2 years ago. Combined with a supervisor and boss who wouldn’t ever talk and only communicated through email, which left me feeling exceedingly lonely in a new city.

      I don’t have great advice because my solution was to stick it out for one year, up my anti-depressants, and then transfer to another position with the City. Sorry you’re going though this. I know it can be so demoralizing!!

      1. Gidget*

        Maybe not advice but it’s good to know you got out in the end. The loneliness is definitely part of it too. I commute (was planning on moving to new city, but was very happy I didn’t after a little while on the job), so I am probably a lot more isolated from everyone else around here.

    3. Natalie*

      I will admit I am worried about leaving because I think they will give me a hard time about being here for such a short period of time.

      Who cares what they think? Assuming you ever have to interact with them again, they’ll get over it. If they don’t, believe me, everyone will understand that they are the ones being weird. People sometimes leave jobs after a short time.

      Add to that, the pay/benefits are quite good.

      Other jobs also have good pay and benefits. You’re not in an emergency situation, you can take your time and be choosy about your next job.

      This job has added to my general lack of self-confidence and has lead me to fear that whatever path I take next might be a disaster as well, so maybe I should just stay.

      You’ve really got this one backwards. Staying in this job is only going to deepen that feeling that this is the best that you deserve, and further trap you. It’s fucking poisonous. In my experience it really exacerbated my existing depression in a very dangerous and scary way.

      Smarter animals go crazy with nothing to occupy their mind all day, that’s why zoo animals get enrichment activities.

      Start looking for a new job.

      1. Gidget*

        Thank you. I guess I know all this, but I am definitely getting in my own way. It’s kind of like analysis paralysis. I think I should make your statement “Smarter animals go crazy with nothing to occupy their mind all day” into a t-shirt or inspirational poster. :)

        1. Natalie*

          I know when I was stuck there, taking small steps at first really helped me break out of my inertia. Also, fortifying your life outside work – try new hobbies, recommit to existing ones, house projects, any lingering health stuff you could treat? At one point I was filling up time going to PT for my ankle, since I could just leave in the middle of the day and no one would notice. (I was salaried so it didn’t affect my pay.)

    4. Weegie*

      I had a job like that, and started looking for an out after less than a year.

      In the 18 subsequent months it took me to get another job (in a different field) I spent my time in the office taking online courses, volunteering for stuff in my professional community, browsing the internet, writing a blog, writing a novel, crocheting in the office, crying in the office (I was SO bored and felt worthless!), annoying colleagues by distracting them from their work . . . and on, and on. At one point I simply didn’t show up in the office (I had my own office) for two weeks, and NO ONE NOTICED!

      When I finally started my new job I found it hard to stay on task. Still do, if I’m honest. Jobs like that are damaging – get out as soon as you can.

      1. Gidget*

        Ahh. This is somewhat my fear. I wish I could crochet in the office but that would not go well. What did you crochet? I hope it was like a whole afghan.
        The coworkers are a whole separate issue, if I had coworkers I trusted (too many weird passive aggressive and just full-on aggressive behaviors towards me) it would make the boredom easier. I am trying to transition into teaching, so at least there I won’t be sitting in front a computer all day, which well probably help me stay on task.

    5. CheeryO*

      Yes, my first job out of grad school was just like that, although they swore that they had long-term plans for me. I got out after six months. In the first days and weeks of my next (and current) job, it was like a light turned on that I didn’t even realize had been turned off. It sounds corny, but I quite literally felt my heart opening back up after I had closed myself off to protect my fragile self-confidence. That sounds dramatic, but jobs like that are so toxic.

      You should be selective in searching to make sure you aren’t going from the frying pan into the fire, but I would try to get out ASAP.

      1. Gidget*

        Yay, a success story. I think that’s part of it, coming from graduate school with so much intellectual freedom and stimulation to this is really kind of soul crushing.

    6. Uncivil Engineer*

      I’ve had two jobs like that. One previous occupant was lazy and had convinced my boss that he was overworked. I spent 6 months correcting everything that was wrong and then spent 1.5 years bored. I made up stuff to do. I tracked things that didn’t need to be tracked. I made unnecessary spreadsheets to organize things. I walked around to check on my staff 3x/day and just chatted with each one for a few minutes.

      After those 2 years, I transferred to another position. The previous occupant of this job wasn’t lazy but she made everything more difficult than it needed to be. The worst part was that she had convinced her staff that this was a normal workload. I spent 6 weeks getting the work back on schedule but retraining the minds of my staff is going much slower than I would like. I’m bored again. But now I’m bored in a different place. And, there was a 6 week flurry of activity when I moved so that was exciting. Now I’m back to making unnecessary spreadsheets and chatting with my new staff as I walk around to see how they’re doing 3x/day. I also plan entire vacations, take long lunches, and read electronic books on my computer (my monitor can’t be seen from the door).

      In both cases, I told my boss over and over that I needed more work. They always claim to have something for me and then it either doesn’t pan out or it takes 1 hr to complete.

      1. Gidget*

        It’s so frustrating isn’t it? I really struggled when applying to jobs because I felt like I wasn’t really qualified to do much, but my sheer level of boredom and the ease (at least to me) of the tasks that I completed have shown me that I guess I have way more skills than I realized, or at least when compared to other people.

        The funniest thing about my position is this is our busy time of year and yet I still have time to read all the AAM comments and reply…

        Being bored in a different place is a big fear, but would probably still be better, because at least then I wouldn’t be commuting. :/

        1. Uncivil Engineer*

          It is very frustrating. These are not entry-level jobs. These are positions high enough where technical work goes out with my name on it without my boss’s review because I am expected to know what I am doing (and I do).

    7. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Are there any committees in the organization that you could volunteer for? That might take some of your time. Also, you might want to see if you can use the time to cultivate relationships with colleagues all over the organization- this would expand your network and might also lead to a more interesting position internally. Is there anyone you might be able to help out with their projects? All of these activities might make the job more interesting while you also explore other options. Who knows- you might carve out a niche for yourself and decide to stay!

      1. Gidget*

        These are all great suggestions (and 100% what I did to fit in during grad school). And I totally would do them, but my department is weirdly insular. When I first started I wanted to talk to my counterpart in another department and I was told, “No, we don’t like them.” There are a number of committees here, but they don’t like assigning contractors to them, and I am so new they wouldn’t put me on them anyway.

        I definitely don’t plan on staying here… I was excited for this job even though it was a little outside my field of expertise but I quickly realized this field has no interest for me and its almost making me resent a whole field of science, so yeah.

    8. ACDC*

      I was at a contract position last year that had me doing NOTHING. My daily tasks were to print order forms at the end of each day (took approximately 15 – 30 minutes). I tried and tried to get more work, but I learned that the person who I was supposed to be alleviating from their insane work load had massive fears of obsolescence and being replaced by a younger person. I finished up my contract term with them but refused when they asked to extend my contract. I got through it by doing online courses, reading a lot of AAM, and taking walk breaks outside a couple times a day so I wouldn’t fall asleep on my keyboard.

      1. Gidget*

        LOL. I have definitely had to work on the not falling asleep at the keyboard thing. I take a lot of walks too.

        Unfortunately, my contract is an “indefinite” contract, so it ends when I either resign or they fire me. :/ At this point I am sort of hoping for a government shutdown (as terrible as that would be) so that I can have justification to leave. Ha. (only kind of kidding)

    9. alphabet soup*

      OMG are you actually me? The only difference is that I just started, but I worry I’m not going to make it to the six-month mark because of exactly the issues you outlined. I keep waiting for more work to come my way, but every task I’m given is incredibly simple and takes me 10 minutes to do, which leaves me with 7 hours to do… nothing.

      I’m going to try to stick it out a year. Like you, the pay and benefits are good. I also get awesome tuition benefits, so I’m going to do a certificate program, and then use it to apply to better jobs. So, if you have any perks like that available to you, that can be an option for filling up your time productively until you can find something better.

      Much sympathy!

      1. Gidget*

        Ha. I am not along in this boat. Honestly, one of the reasons I am going to make it to six-months is because this is our “big” deal time and I was hoping it would change my perspective. It has not and has really shown me that I need to be doing something else.

        Good idea on the certificate. Good luck on your next adventure!

  28. starrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*

    Does anyone have some good language for informing my co-workers that while I am now engaged, I won’t be changing my last name to his after we’re married and children are not a thing we’re doing? I’ve got a few well intentioned folk in my office and need some standard, friendly language.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I would make the announcement about the engagement and then if people ask questions or make inappropriate comments, give a breezy, off hand answer and change the subject. Then if they persist, you don’t need to be friendly.

    2. Bee's Knees*

      I think just a breezy, matter of fact, “No, I’ll be keeping my last name instead.” and for kids, “Not for us, I think. We have a dog/niece or nephew/houseplant to spoil though!” just as a sort of pivot, and that you do have something/someone to nurture.

      1. Carquals 229 Zulu 5*

        +100. Keep it easy and light there’s nothing to discuss and thank you for asking.

      2. Squeeble*

        Yep. Don’t bring these things up yourself, as it sort of invites questions, but if people ask “what’s your new name?” or “when are you gonna have kids?” just answer truthfully, breezily, and change the subject.

    3. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      I got married two years ago, didn’t change my name, and don’t want kids. The great thing about living in 2019 is people don’t really bat an eye when I tell them I haven’t changed my name. It only comes up when I need to correct them.

      As for the kids thing, be prepared to get unfriendly. For some reason well-meaning people think it’s totally appropriate to ask you why you aren’t having kids, tell you you’ll change your mind, or pass some sort of judgment on you for making that decision. When someone asks if we’re having kids I’ll respond in a very straightforward way that doesn’t invite further conversation (“No, that’s not for us”), but inevitably the prodding will start. If I’m feeling nice, I’ll respond with “I’d rather not talk about my personal decisions at work.” On bad days, they’ll get, “I didn’t ask for your opinions on my personal life, thanks.”

      1. starrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*

        Yeah, the kids thing got weird REAL fast with one lady a long time ago when we were chatting about “futures”.

        1. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

          Our office manager called me selfish for not wanting kids. What do you even say to that? I just blinked and walked away.

            1. Jadelyn*

              Exactly – I lean into the whole “selfish” thing. It at least tends to shock people enough to make them pause.

              1. Natalie*

                It really works for any question with an accusation behind it – see the classic catcalling “you’re stuck up” or whatever. They are expecting you to want to fight the accusation.

              2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

                I started doing this with charity muggers in the UK. They would say things like “but don’t you want to help? Can’t you spare just £x a day? You seem like such a lovely person” and other guilt trip nonsense. I like to say “actually I’m a selfish jerk and I don’t care about “. It’s generally not true but I absolutely hate that kind of begging.

          2. Spargle*

            “More selfish than forcing an entire person into existence just because you wanted to have an experience?”

            (No, I don’t actually think that about parenting. But assholes like that deserve the smackdown.)

            1. CM*

              I kinda do think that about parenting, and I’m a parent. It really does seem selfish that I had kids because I wanted to.

              One thing that works well for me in other contexts is just to keep repeating a cheerful “Nope!” with a smile on my face. No context, no followup. After a while they move on.

              1. Double A*

                Yeah, when people talk about how selfless parenting is I’m like…uh, it’s really not. You are most definitely getting something out of it. Which is fine! Just be real about it.

                Honestly having a kid has made me feel more selfish. And some of the worst, least just behavior people engage in is in the name of “doing anything for their kids.”

            2. Elizabeth Proctor*

              Right? It’s so odd. You could come up with arguments for why either is selfish. Could, but shouldn’t, because people should be able to make either choice without judgment.

            3. Clisby*

              I’m a parent, and that’s what I did. I mean, how many people have children for unselfish reasons? The idea seems very odd to me. I had my kids because I wanted them – isn’t that the best reason to have them? If I hadn’t wanted them, they wouldn’t have been born. I wouldn’t have been altruistic in either case; it all came down to what I wanted.

          3. CupcakeCounter*

            You office manager is the one who is being selfish.
            “I did this so you need to do it too so you can understand the misery of pregnancy, childbirth, and the responsibility of caring for something that is helpless and entirely dependent on you and is going to cost of fortune to keep alive and healthy as well as give you wrinkles and gray hair.”

            Yes I have a kid – he is 10. Love him to death and wouldn’t trade him for anything but its not for everyone. I also only had the one and chose to close up shop. Apparently to some people that is worse than not having any!

          4. Gidget*

            It’s like actually the opposite of selfish… I mean if we want to bring in like biology, genetics, and evolution into it. And you know considering the world is vastly overpopulated.

            1. Jadelyn*

              I’ll sometimes use this to turn it around on someone with the “selfishness” accusation. “I have severe depression, ADHD, and anxiety. Alcoholism runs in my family. I can barely take care of myself, much less another whole human being who’s entirely dependent on me. I think it would be far more selfish to subject a kid to this mess *gestures at self* than to refrain from doing so.”

      2. Liane*

        What is it with people who can’t keep from babbling Nosy Having Kids Questions/Opinions?
        I didn’t like them when I was leaning towards No Kids.
        I didn’t like them after I decided I did want 1 or 2.*
        And by the time I had a baby I downright hated them (still do) outside the context of private “Should we have another kid & if so when?” conversations with my husband.

        *Not implying starrrrrrrrrrrrrrr or PABJ (or anyone else) will change their minds. Just a bit of my story. :)

      3. No Longer Indefinite Contract Attorney*

        Are you comfortable turning it into a basically really inappropriate teaching moment? I’m super clear to people that I dislike children so I’m not anticipating these kinds of questions, but if they do come up, I’m prepared to respond to try to sort of course correct people away from this line of questioning so that, in the future, they don’t inadvertently ask that sort of question to someone who may, for example, have just had a miscarriage.
        Things like, “Are you aware how hurtful that sort of questioning could be for someone who has been trying and can’t? Or maybe just had a miscarriage? Family planning questions aren’t really appropriate unless someone brings it up themselves.”
        It’s super abrasive, but I’m starting to get extremely defensive of my poor friends and family who are struggling with it and dealing with these sorts of questions while suffering. :C

      4. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        Our group hired a young woman and she was asked about kids and she got “well, you’ll change your mind” from the oldest member of the group. Not pleased.

        1. Jadelyn*

          My manager once made that joke at a team lunch. I threatened to stab him with my fork. With my grandboss sitting across the table from us. (I wasn’t actually mad, it was genuinely in good fun bc we all know each other well enough to joke like that, but still.)

      5. Clisby*

        I’m 65 and didn’t change my name when I married. By then (1996) it wasn’t that uncommon, and only a few people asked me about it. I told them if my husband wanted us to have the same name, he was welcome to take mine.

    4. A teacher*

      Are those unusual choices where you are? But whether they are or not, you don’t have to announce anything. Just address it if it comes up. I am in the same boat (married 12 years ago) and sometimes people asked (‘does he mind?’ — wtf kind of question is that? ‘No, and I don’t mind he didn’t take mine!’ <—— That’s usually what I said, the three or four times I have been asked, in a very friendly tone.) but usually they didn’t. And it was never a big deal. Some people with very narrow lives had trouble wrapping their minds around it, but most people got it. I never had to be rude.

      1. starrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*

        Rural south, so while becoming less unusual, still a lot of older traditional folk at work.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          A friend of mine used to do the total non-sequitur when asked what her new name is going to be. “I’m not changing my name. Did you know that Iceland still uses the patronymic, so a married couple with two children usually lists four last names on a wedding invitation?”

        2. ..Kat..*

          Since you are in the rural south, when it comes to questions about you having children, I recommend smiling and piously saying, “that’s in God’s hands.” That should save you a lot of lectures and debates.

    5. Box of Kittens*

      I got married a couple years ago and had this exact situation. I didn’t really say anything about my last name and it didn’t really come up, besides HR asking whether they needed to change my email and one random coworker who had a habit of being nosy. To the few others that asked I just said, “Oh, I’m keeping my own,” and moved on like someone suggested above. Most people don’t want to seem impolite and push it. As for the kids thing, I usually say, “Oh, I’m not a kid person” or “My cats are enough for me!” and eventually will get around and people will stop asking. It’s been said here before but as long as you act like it’s not a thing it won’t be a thing.

    6. Frank Doyle*

      Even though I was 99% sure I didn’t want kids, when people asked, I’d say “nah, not right now, but never say never!” I suppose it’s technically a lie, but if you leave the door open, then they have nothing to argue with, you know? And hey, if the superflu came through next year and everybody died but you and your partner, maybe you WOULD want to have kids, right?

      It’s a lot easier now that I’m 41 and my husband had a vascectomy.

      I also would deflect with the dog. “Do you have kids?” / “Naw, we have a dog though!” and talk about her for a while.

      As for the name change, do people think to ask? If they do they probably WANT to hear that you’re keeping yours; if they assume you’re taking his they probably won’t even think to ask. But just shrug and say you’re attached to it. Or you want to make sure professional contacts remember who you are. Just don’t make it seem like a big deal. I never got a ton of flack for either decision (except from my dad, but he’s finally figured both out) and I’m not sure if that’s the area (NE) or people I interact with, or because of my breezy demeanor. Just keep it light and usually people don’t press.

    7. Joielle*

      My favorite response to the name change thing is “Nope! We’re both keeping our names.” Just a little reminder that technically, he also could change his name to match yours, but he’s not, and neither are you.

      Personally, I usually go with “Not anytime soon!” for the kids question, which lets people make whatever assumptions they want. If you want to more explicitly communicate that you’re not ever having kids, I might say “Ha, probably not.” If that doesn’t do the trick… prepare to get unfriendly, as PABJ says :)

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Weirdly I had to defend my decision to change my name, since I got married older and had a few (completely trivial) articles published under my birth name.
          “I never intended to change my name, but he’d never intended to wear a wedding ring, so we both get something we want.” My sister is the only one to push further, at which point I said “Fiance considered changing his name to mine, but we realized it would turn his name into [name of long-bankrupt company where our father lost 100% of his investment.]” She cracked up laughing and stopped bugging me. )

      2. dealing with dragons*

        I always like to ask “why”. No one has a real reason besides that’s just how we do things, and then I move into my diatribe that it’s pretty much only germanic languages that require it.

        a nice “cause I didn’t want to” also goes a long way. I like my name. I can trace it to Prussia in the 1500s. my husband doesn’t know where his grandfather is from.

    8. LawBee*

      I tell people that I don’t want to be a parent, that mine are wonderful but it’s not an experience I need to have to feel complete. The name change thing hasn’t come up bc so very single, but I wouldn’t anyway. I’ve been LawBee Last Name my whole life, why would I change that?

    9. halfwolf*

      dang, i don’t remember writing this comment! seconding those suggesting you keep it breezy, and offering solidarity from another newly-engaged person who will die with the last name i was born with and has no intention of having kids.

    10. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I would make it a point to say “Neither of us are changing our last name” instead of just saying that you aren’t.

    11. sacados*

      For anyone who you think would be particularly stubborn/shocked that a woman wouldn’t change her name, you could phrase it something like “I’ve decided to keep the same name professionally.” Especially if you work with clients/the public/etc where it would be a pain to correct over to the new name.
      Cause I know several women who actually did legally change their names but kept using the maiden name at work since that’s what everyone knew them by — and then if they changed jobs, would often start using their married name from the start at the new place.

      I mean, obviously you shouldn’t have to hide the fact that you aren’t changing your name. But if there’s anyone who you feel might give pushback and you just don’t want to deal with it, this could be good phrasing to misdirect them a bit.

    12. Clisby*

      Why would you need to inform them of either of these two things? I married in 1996, when I was 42, didn’t change my name, and never had anyone at work ask about it.

      Or, do you mean what you say if they ask you about these things?

      1) Husband-to-be is welcome to change his name to mine if he likes.
      2) If I ever get pregnant and decide to have the child, I’ll be sure to let you all know eventually.

    13. Michael Valentine*

      My mother-in-law would not leave me alone about changing my name. Coworkers would also ask a lot, saying I’d regret it, especially for the kids. I was like, well, I love a challenge! I love my name! It’s against my religion! The cats would be offended! I want to preserve my spot in the phone book! My responses got crazier, and folks stopped mentioning it.

      BTW, The only time it has EVER been an issue was when I needed something from the IRS–since I filed jointly, I had to look under my husband’s last name as he was the primary filer. Otherwise, it has been no trouble.

      1. Owler*

        My husband is not a junior, but he has the same first name as his dad (Jon A. Doe, and Jon A. Z. Doe). Even though I didn’t change my name, my MIL would constantly address any mail to “Mrs. Jon Doe” from “Mrs. Jon A. Doe” for a good couple of years before changing to use my actual name. She backslides occasionally; I just roll my eyes now.

  29. Wes*

    I think I made a big mistake, and I need some advice.

    I am a manager of an IT team in a big company. A couple of years ago, when I first became a manager, I “inherited” a guy from another manager who left, let’s call him Rick. Rick was a pretty good programmer, but openly ignored all the other aspects of the job. As well, he was also really weird around all of the women in the office. I ended up banning him from going to all team social events and put him on a PIP. He fought it by telling HR I was only going after him because he is Jewish, HR took my side. He ended up leaving a couple of weeks before the PIP ended.

    We’ve heard from him a few times since this happened (2 and a half years ago) because he’s told HR that I lie to companies he’s interviewing with that he was fired for misconduct. Fortunately I havent gotten in trouble for this (HR gives me warnings but they’re more a formality than anything else, because he has no proof) but it’s been annoying.

    So on Wednesday we had a department social and a few people who left were invited. One of them was Dmitry, a guy who left a little before Rick. Dmitry asked why Rick wasn’t invited and because I had a couple drinks, I said he was fired for sexual harassment. Dmitry seemed pretty surprised and he said he’s kept up with Rick and he’s given Rick good references.

    Basically as soon as I said this, I felt worried it’d come back to bite me. And yesterday, I got a notification that he viewed my profile on LinkedIn. I’m worried that Dmitry has told Rick what I said and I’m gonna get fired.

    So what can I do now?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      It’s true that when you know a former employee is probably litigious its better not to get drawn into discussions about them. I guess the good news is, it’s only Dmitry’s recollection – in a bar setting – that you’re facing. There was nothing in writing. If you’re challenged on it, there’s gotta be ambiguity around what was actually said.

      Uuh, I hope you changed identifying details in this post :P

      1. voyager1*

        I would stop giving references about Rick and just refer anything to HR. Everywhere I have worked HR departments handles that not individual managers. Granted I have s worked almost exclusively in banking so….

    2. Sam Sepiol*

      HR gives you warnings?!
      You’re telling the truth and only the truth, right?
      The truth is an absolute defence but I’d still be concerned in your shoes. I hope it comes to nothing :-|

      1. Anon for now*

        It sounds like rounding up to me. He was not technically fired since he was on a PIP and quit. In the future you may want to stick strictly to the facts so that it is easier to defend yourself. Depending on company policy it seems like it would be fair to mention that there were issues with sexual harassment that you were in the process of addressing when he quit.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        They probably have a company policy that current managers are not allowed to give references on previous employees. My last two companies had this stance, with the former specifically stating that anyone caught violating this policy could be written up or terminated.

          1. Robert*

            I’ve seen it at every company I’ve worked at, aside a 10 person startup I worked at for a bit.

            My understanding is that two big reasons companies have this rule are:

            1. In general, companies don’t want Joe Employee speaking for them unless Joe Employee’s job is branding, PR, social media, or something like that. My current employer has a ton of language in the employment agreement/handbook/etc. about not presenting yourself as a representative of the company on social media.
            2. It might help to minimize their legal “attack surface,” so to speak. There’s no perfect way from stopping a boss from sabotaging an employee they hate, even after the employee’s left. But in a case like this, it probably helps if the company’s lawyer can say “that’s a violation of policy XYZ in the Company Employment Agreement, so we’ve parted ways with Wes.” Of course, companies can fire for anything (aside whistleblowing, being a member of a protected class, and probably one or two more things I’m forgetting) but being able to say that this is explicitly forbidden behavior would help.

            But I’m neither an HR specialist or employment law specialist.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              This is the exact reasoning they do this – fear of litigation. No one wants to be bothered with a defamation suit, so companies have started telling their HR departments to handle all reference requests and only verify dates of employment, job titles, and whether or not the employee is eligible for rehire.

              That being said, I know many managers and supervisors who ignored this rule and did it anyway, but only for employees they really liked and were going to say nothing but positive things about.

    3. WellRed*

      Are you being contacted by these companies? If so, can you decline to provide a reference? Which is an answer in itself. Not clear what HR is warning you about or why they haven’t shut this down. I assume the sexual harassment was documented? I also agree with Sloan.

      1. Wes*

        Nobody’s contacted me asking for a reference for Rick, and I’m not stupid—I wouldn’t give one.

        The two times I had to meet with HR and legal they said it was precautionary, and I followed their instructions. Nothing good can happen if I say anything about him, which is why I’m so worried about the other day. He has a persecution complex and could come after me.

        TBH, no one directly came to me about Rick being a creep, but I have reason to believe he made the women in our department were made uncomfortable by him on several occasions. He gives off real creepy vibes and I’m surprised he managed to land the good job he has now.

        1. Anon for now*

          Giving off creepy vibes is not the same as being fired for sexual harassment! What is your relationship with Dmitri? You may want to reach out to him and straighten out the record if you can do so without further violating company policy.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          So, this is maybe a serious problem. You said he got fired (he didn’t) for sexual harassment (when it sounds like there were no sexual harassment complaints). If Dmitri is willing to verify to your company that you said that, they’d legitimately have a serious issue here. (And Rick absolutely has a valid beef here.) I don’t think you’re going to get fired over this, but I’d be prepared to be in some serious trouble for it. And you really need to change what you’re saying about the circumstances that Rick left under. It’s not right to say someone got fired when they didn’t. You can say you were on your way to firing him when he left because that’s true.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Also — at this point the right thing to do is to tell your company because you’ve opened them to legal liability here and they shouldn’t be blindsided by that. You can explain that in your head you think of him as a harasser and you were on your way to firing him, so that’s why it came out that way, but that it was thoughtless and you were wrong to say it that way. You can say the previous complaints he made were false, but this one you actually did get wrong.

            1. CM*

              Yes, tell HR and follow their instructions.
              The consequences are likely to be worse for you if your company finds this out through Dmitry or a third party instead of you confessing.
              Also, if I were your HR, I would be very skeptical that you were telling the truth about the previous incidents when Rick accused you of saying he was fired for sexual misconduct. So you should be prepared with as many details as possible, and be totally honest and straightforward — the more you cover up, the more doubts there will be about your credibility. Try to tell them exactly what you said to employers previously, and explain exactly what you said to Dmitry and why you said that. Leave out all the parts about Rick’s persecution complex and how HR is annoying — you need to accept responsibility for lying in a way that could create liability for the company, and that means not blaming anybody else or trying to cast doubt on their actions.

          2. sacados*

            Is it really a potential liability since this was just casual talk between two former coworkers at a social event?
            Unless I’m misunderstanding, it sounds like Wes has not been telling recruiters/reference checkers that Rick was fired for harassment — he just said that to Dmitri at the social.
            Just curious, since I would assume that doesn’t rise to the level of anything actionable.

            1. Zelda from Zelda*

              IME, when you’re a manager of people, or you worked with someone who left under difficult circumstances — in other words, discrimination or harassment complaints, or some other sort of wrongful termination type lawsuit — HR and legal will instruct you to not speak about the person who left, among other things, like being ordered to retain communication relating do the person who left, etc. Even if literally nothing comes from the drunk talk, HR would still be very upset to hear of it.

              It’s evident that this guy Rick feels he was screwed over by the OP Wes and/or their company. He’s at least made complaints to them that Wes is defaming him in reference checks, so if this gets back to him he’s going to do something.

              1. Zelda from Zelda*

                By “at least,” I mean that Rick might’ve also made an EEOC complaint or something else.

        3. Former Govt Contractor*

          HR warned you twice before you bold faced lied to Dmitri, you should expect to be fired for this.

          1. All identifying remarks removed*

            +1 you lied about someone being fired for sexual harassment – that bell can’t be unrung. You should be fired for this.
            And I don’t believe Dmitri is going to keep quiet about your lie – that’s the kind of thing people will repeat.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      Whoa…yeah you did mess up big time
      Rick wasn’t fired for sexual harassment so you absolutely cannot say that to anyone. It is simply not true.
      Its not clear if you have been talking to these companies Rick is interviewing with in either a formal or informal setting but if you are saying anything you absolutely need to STOP. How is HR giving you warnings if you haven’t been talking? Or is it more of a “Hey Rick called again and says you’ve been saying X so we need to be really clear that you cannot say anything at all about Rick’s employment and just send the call straight to us and we will handle it from there”?

      Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if you did get fired for this – especially after so many conversations with HR about Rick – so your best bet is to go to HR and tell them what happened at the bar. And never tell anyone ever again that Rick was fired – he left while on a PIP which is entirely different and there was never an accusation of sexual harassment.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The thing is that he wasn’t fired…he left voluntarily even though the writing was on the wall that the next step would have probably been termination.

      That’s enough of a lie to really get some employment lawyers salivating if Rick decides to dig into it. That’s an opening.

      It doesn’t matter that it’s Dmitry’s word against yours in the end. If he swears to it in documentation for the courts, that’s enough, then you will either need to perjure yourself to dig out [which will probably come out because the more lies pile up, they’ll find them with enough investigation], it is just an ugly spiral.

      You’re a manager, so you are actually not just opening up your company for a lawsuit, Rick can name you personally responsible for this in his lawsuit, so it could come down to him winning a case naming Company and You, his Manager, as the defendants. Your company has those warnings on file so they are covering their own tails and they will use them to throw this into a “Wes did it, this is all on Wes, we wash our hands of it.” so if they do end up firing you [which they may do given the gravity of the situation], they will be off the hook for the damages, they’ll all fall on you directly.

      This is the dangers of being in management and not taking those training sessions on keeping your cards close to your vest and being buttoned up when you’re talking about employee situations. Never ever speak about a former or current employee out of turn and share anything you wouldn’t say directly to a judge or the police.

      1. Zelda from Zelda*

        This seems a little dramatic and exaggerated to me?

        IANAL, and Wes seems like kind of a bad guy (saying a Jewish guy has a “persecution complex” in the current political climate is a bad look—really makes him look worse given everything else here) but I don’t see him being driven to living in a cardboard box and eating instant noodles over this. He said he was a new manager 2.5 years ago, so unless he’s a Hearst or Hilton slumming it, an employment lawyer probably isn’t gonna encourage Rick to go after him, because he probably doesn’t have enough money to make suing him rather than the company, or both him and the company, worth it. Also, what are the damages? If Wes said this to a background checker looking to make a decision on hiring Rick, and Wes lying (because he’s lying, and maliciously so), there’d be evident damages.

        Please understand, I’m not defending Wes. IMHO he should be fired and he should see this as a come-to-Jesus moment. If this doesn’t totally incinerate his reputation at that company, then I want to know that company’s name so I never work there for another Wes.

        Hopefully he takes it as a serious sign he needs to take a look at himself. Wes doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who should have power over other peoples’ paychecks.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          The damage isn’t done by a massive payout. It’s done by having a harassment and defamation conviction. It’s not all about the money. It’s to ensure this doesn’t happen to another person.

    1. Sharkie*

      You can share mine! It is currently about 63 in my office because the sensor is in direct sunlight. I am freezing!

    2. Ricky Bobby said so*

      Dear Baby Jesus

      Please lay Your hands on the AC unit. Give it life and light, let it be glorious in its cooling functions.

      In your name. Amen.

      1. Liane*

        LOL
        My church has done 1) Call AC company, 2) Pray they get here fast and the fix ISN’T “Died & gone to Heaven. New unit will cost [half of Buildings/Maintenance budget]”

        Seriously, Seifer, I hope it gets fixed & the heat wave goes away. (In Arkansas, on third day of Heat Advisories, with AC that barely keeps up.)

        1. Seifer*

          Thanks! It got fixed but it’s still SO humid in here. We got heat advisories too. Like… my coworker and I thought about using them as an excuse to call in. The news said that if you don’t need to be outside, don’t be, and I don’t really NEED to be in the office today. Alas, we were thwarted.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          And may your smoke&heat detectors be set to high enough temperature that they don’t go off if your steeple reaches chicken-cooking temperatures.

    3. Bee's Knees*

      I think our office is coming in at about 65, and 60 in the bathroom. And then it’s 104 out on the floor.

      1. Mockingjay*

        May I suggest lollipops? They have handles to avoid sticky fingers and come in many flavors. (I love chocolate, but it can be messy when even slightly warmed.)

        1. Mockingjay*

          And… this was supposed to be nested directly below with JustaTech. Thank you for flickering, my dear cheap monitor.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            But you know… if the workspace is a miserable temperature, lollipops might at least sooth the soul. ;)

    4. Elizabeth West*

      In the Midwest here too; it wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t so damn humid. Oh well.

      1. Seifer*

        YES, THE HUMIDITY. The heat is okay but it’s the humidity that’s getting to us. The AC got fixed however it is taking some time to come back down to temp. So… we stole fans from downstairs.

        1. Kat in VA*

          When growing up in Southern California, I remember actively being outside and doing things in triple digit weather.

          Now that I live in the DC metro area? It’s already 90 degrees at 10:00AM and it’s SWELTERING. I have a pool and a decent AC (and allll the curtains are closed) but I’m concerned about folks who don’t have AC/have insufficient ACs. I am hoping they take advantage of cooling centers and the like.

          There’s always the possibility of a power outage. Glad it’s only two days. The headsnapping transition occurs on Tuesday with a high of 78. It’s going to feel freezing (and glorious).

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Seriously, HVAC that isn’t built to withstand the heat y’all are gonna get is going to crap out *sobs* So I’m glad yours is fixed but I’m seriously concerned about the citizens over there, these heatwaves are known to be deadly =(

    6. Jaid*

      Does your office maintenance have a portable A/C unit around? That’s what my apartment complex office does when a tenant’s A/C is down.

  31. JustaTech*

    Questions about presenting at a conference:

    I got accepted to present a poster at a scientific/industry (yay!) in two months and I have two questions for the commentariate:
    1) The conference has asked for a headshot and a bio. I don’t have a professional headshot (they’re not common at my level) so should I go with my LinkedIn photo (very nice, but more of a portrait than a headshot) or should I have a friend take my picture headshot-style (pearls, white shirt, black blazer)?

    2) My poster presentation time is right before dinner on the second day of the conference, so I’m guessing people will be hungry/thinking about food. Should I have a bowl of Hershey kisses at my poster to entice people to read it, or is that unprofessional?

    Thanks!

    1. Adlib*

      For #1, I think you’d be okay with your LinkedIn photo if you are recognizable and it’s a good picture of you so people will know you on site.

      For #2, YES to all the candy! I love vendors/presenters who have food at their table. People love free food.

      1. OtterB*

        Agreed re #1, it’s to help people recognize you, so anything recognizable and not unprofessional is fine.

        Re #2, don’t overthink it. If you want to put out candy, do. If you don’t, don’t. Some people will enjoy it. Others won’t care. It won’t look unprofessional unless you go over the top (cupcakes with your institution logo, for example, or pressing passers-by to take some).

        1. JustaTech*

          My only real concern about the chocolate is that I’ll just be standing at a poster, so there won’t be a table or anything. Maybe a paper bowl push pinned to the poster?

          1. OtterB*

            In that case it might be best to just skip it. I’m having trouble picturing anything that would be easy for people to help themselves.

          2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

            If there’s no table or other place to put food, I wouldn’t suggest trying to make a place to put food giveaways on your poster. You want your poster to be designed to make it easy to talk about whatever your poster presentation is about, and having something that sticks out and people might bump into and knock things on the floor from would work against that. If the organizers aren’t giving you a place to put it, you’re not expected to bring food.

            If you’re not used to scientific poster presentations and what to expect at them (and what posters for them should look like), that might be something to research a bit. You can probably find information targeted at grad students in your field going to their first poster sessions at conferences. Some of that won’t apply to you because you’re further along in an industry career rather than starting out in academia, but it might give you a useful window into what this typically looks like.

            (Less importantly for this specific thing, but if you’re tabling in a situation where it might make sense to have food, like a trade show or something, you should also check with the venue about any food restrictions. A few events will forbid food giveaways entirely, and others will have rules about wrapped/unwrapped, or no gum, or nothing from certain categories of food that compete with on-site food service vendors, or other various things. I always try to check with the event about food giveaways specifically when I’m clearing up things about badges/hours/policies/etc. during the planning process if I’m going to be running a promotional table.)

            If you have a heart for the ridiculous and really want to do a food giveaway, however, I think a Lollipop Tree would be the way to go here in terms of space configuration and dispensing issues. You could get a foam pyramid (other other shape for a less treelike “tree”), put it on a base so it’s at a suitable height when set on the floor, poke lollipops end-first into the foam, and let people pick lollipops off the tree. This seems to me like it would be seen as really, really odd at a poster talk, though. You would probably be known as “that person who brought a lollipop tree to the conference” from then on. You know your industry norms better than I do, though.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I’ve read enough on this forum to suggest you use *wrapped* candy so no one has to wonder about the great unwashed.

    2. RemingtonTypeType*

      I’d put together a real headshot.

      I had to do the same thing when I found out my photo would be on posters and materials for an event, and I did not want to be the gal with a blurry hiking photo against all of the other headshots.

      I ended up doing it myself by arranging bunch of lamps around me and sitting on the floor against my white wall. I set up a camera on a tripod and used the timer setting. It took about 15 minutes, and if you have a friend that can help you it will go even faster! Remember to keep your makeup and clothes fairly neutral.

    3. OperaArt*

      For a poster presentation at a science/tech conference, your LinkedIn photo should be fine.
      As much as I love chocolate, I’d still skip the Hershey kisses. That might look more like something a vendor would do. And if you appear to be young and female, definitely skip the chocolate—be seen as the professional expert rather than the nurturer.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        That’s my thought too – I wander through the poster sessions at conferences and don’t recall ever seeing any kind of treat by specific posters. Business cards or 1-page handouts, yes. Also, there may be snacks and drinks provided by the conference itself to bring people into the room in the first place, but that may be conference-specific.

    4. Auntie Social*

      Do your passport photos come out okay? Because that’s kind of what you need. If you’re going with a snack, pretzels or chips (smallest snack size) are better before dinner than chocolate.

    5. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      My husband’s conference headshot was, for many years and may still be, one of our posed wedding photos that I heavily cropped and resized into the correct specs for a headshot.

    6. Another PhD student*

      If you want to do a headshot-style photo, they’re pretty easy to do! I did them recently for myself and my partner just using a cell phone and a white wall at a time of day where there’s a bunch of natural light in the room I used. I then put them into my computer, cropped them, and used whatever the standard Microsoft Office photo editing tool is that comes with Windows and had it do its standard fix. I was surprised by how good they came out – I’m sure a professional could do better, but this was good enough that I feel no need to bother.

      Regarding poster presentations and food – I haven’t personally seen anyone do this before at a conference due to a lack of tables at poster sessions I’ve attended. I’d also be a bit wary of the young-female-with-candy optics that others mentioned. That being said, as a young female in my field, I’d also love some candy at a poster session so your mileage may vary!

    7. JustaTech*

      Thanks so much everyone for the advice!
      I’ll skip the snacks (I also just figured out this is the only poster session, so people will be less likely to ditch for drinks).

      Now if only I could convince my boss^3 that I don’t need to learn a whole new graphing software…

  32. Youth*

    At my new job, we have a big E-A-T initiative. I ‘m expected to both provide expert commentary for other publications’ content and get expert commentary for my site’s articles. Part of the initiative requires me to use HARO both as a reporter and as a source.

    I’d love to hear from anyone who has tips and tricks for using HARO from either end of the equation!

    1. WellRed*

      Do you *have* to use HARO to get comments from others? I’ve never used it, I just go straight to the source/expert/communications person.

      1. Youth*

        Not necessarily, but so far, contacting people directly has yielded so-so results. Sending out calls for information on Instagram has been more successful.

    2. Alphabet Pony*

      It matters most to reporters if you get back to them quickly, answer what they actually asked and don’t offer them other random crap just in case they’re interested (they’re not).

    3. Alphabet Pony*

      Oh and as a reporter, be as specific as you can about what you need and when. Don’t just say you need stuff on x topic – say what eg a 50-word comment about x and y, with a name, pic and two-line bio, or a phone to discuss z. Give enough info that someone could fulfil your request in response. That weeds out some of the useless stuff.

  33. Project manager*

    I have a coworker who I do not manage. But I have seniority and input on her reviews and projects because I am a manager in the department. Her boss and I are on the same level and report to the same person. She comes to me with questions and works on my projects. She has been here for two years. I supervisors other, but not her.

    She is incredibly rules oriented, and I don’t know how to steer her away from it, because it’s just how her brian works. We have rules, but we also have some flexibility and discretion on when to waive. I’ll try to be like ‘I would let it go, it’s not important’ but she just responding that it’s policy and she doesn’t understand when she has to follow rules. I know her boss backs me up. i just don’t know how to explain how to have judgement to her, especially when she resists so much. She’s just a letter of the law type person.

    If there is every conflating information, like one person would do it one way, and one the other, she always tries to figure out who is right, when really it’s just a difference of opinion.

    How do we manage her out of this? Is it possible?

    1. fposte*

      Can you clarify the ways in which this is causing a problem? I can’t tell if this means she’s taking too much time, or following procedures that aren’t actually best practices, or just being annoying.

      Obviously you have some limits if she doesn’t report to you, but I think you can explain (assuming it’s correct) that the rules aren’t laws–they’re just things that got written down to guide people, and sometimes the work changes in ways the rules haven’t caught up to or the rules don’t anticipate a particular situation. You can also note, if it’s relevant, that desired completion time is a really important metric that also needs to be considered.

      1. Auntie Social*

        And that people are hired for their good judgment, and there’s a little flexibility in X and Y areas. Maybe you can ease her out of being so rigid by saying we need to follow rules in A, but here we have some leeway. Baby steps.

      2. Project manager*

        It’s causing a problem because it is out of step with the way her manager, I , and other managers want to run the department.

        We work in a big institution that has a lot of policies and procedures that are not followed, mostly because they were written in 1952 and never updated. I don’t want to be overly ridged on stuff that has no consequences. Unfortunately, there are often political situations with certain clients were they are allowed to bend he rules, which isn’t my doing, it is far above me. She struggles with both set of circumstances. She also works on my projects, so I do have control over her work and the ability to give her feedback or recommend disciplinary action to her manager, although I don’t think that rises to that level.

        1. Kimmy Schmidt*

          Is it reasonable or possible to update those procedures? Does she struggle with not having documentation to follow when she has questions? Is there any way to create documentation, even if it’s quick and informal?

        2. fposte*

          Right, but specifically what is the negative impact? When she struggles, what is the result? Is she taking longer than she should? Is her product not as desired? Is she giving clients problematic information? Do you have to redo her work?

          I’d keep whatever that negative impact is at the forefront of the discussion, so it’s not just about “Change your philosophy” but “Your work is causing these specific problems.”

        3. Beatrice*

          I have one of these. We have guidelines around how we serve our customers and the things we will and won’t do and the things we’ll do for free and what we’ll charge for. Making them comprehensive to cover every conceivable situation isn’t possible or necessary – they’re just there to keep our workload sane and control costs and make sure we’re profitable, but there’s wiggle room everywhere. We bend the rules in situations where we’re trying to make up for a failure on our part somewhere else, and we’ll just about snap the rules in half for some of our biggest customers.

          She really struggles with having rules but being empowered to bend them. I’ve made sure that enforcing the rules is not a part of her goals or her bonus structure in any form, and I’ve given her some specific goals around approachability and flexibility, because those things have been a problem. And because bending rules means more work for her, I’ve taken more steps to make sure she has some flexibility to say yes in her workload. I think that’s helped, but it’s still a work in progress. She’s stopped getting noticeably emotionally agitated when someone asks for an exception, and she’s stopped asking me to PUNISH THE RULEBREAKERS, so that’s a good thing.

          Some people are just naturally very rules-oriented and enjoy learning and applying complex/firm rules. That skill can be useful in some roles, too, so it might make sense to think about where her natural inclinations might be a strong fit.

    3. Also a project manager*

      I used to be your coworker. Would it be possible to have a retrospective where everyone gets together to discuss a recent project or a certain situation around these rules and your coworker can see, hear, and start to learn rules vs. best practice vs. guidance? Based on what you wrote, it sounds like she’s being informed in 1:1 situations but that approach doesn’t seem to be working for her.

      The other thing I would advise is checking in with her (or having her supervisor check in with her) about her workload or her stress level. She may be overworked or stressed out and cling so tightly to the rules could be a sign that she is overloaded and doesn’t know how to dig out of it.

      1. designbot*

        I like the notion of asking her questions that may uncover where this is coming from. Another thought of where it could be coming from is that if she reports to multiple different people (or works with but doesn’t report to but has to listen to, which is its own tangled web), and they have differing interpretations and levels of adherence to rules, her ability to judge this for herself may be at its capacity. As someone who has 10 different bosses, plus works with people above my level in other departments who get to have their own takes on these things, I know that I can sometimes just become exhausted by it and default to the most by-the-book position. I wonder if that may be a contributing factor for this employee?

    4. Anon for now*

      Tell her that you are making a judgement call and that if she gets in trouble for it she can always point to the email and you will take any blame. That doesn’t fix the larger problem but can at least short circuit the pushback.

    5. Aquawoman*

      I’d just describe your own ability to waive certain rules as another rule. She’s not making the decision, you are. Offer to send her an email so she can document it if she wants to.

    6. KX*

      Can you provide her a decision tree to follow? That is a kind of rule that includes, at some points, Be Flexible Do What Makes Sense, Move On.

    7. Alphabet Pony*

      When I went from a job where I had to keep all rules and policies to one where I could use my judgement, something that really helped was getting a list of examples from my manager of the sorts of situations when she would and wouldn’t expect me to use my judgement.

    8. A Frayed Knot*

      What is Hypegiaphobia?
      Hypegiaphobia is the fear of responsibility. The origin of the word hypengy is Greek (meaning responsible) and phobia is Greek (meaning fear). Hypegiaphobia is considered to be a specific phobia. Hypegiaphobia is also called Hypengyophobia or Hypengiaphobia.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Well, over the long term if she does not sort this out then she won’t be able to stay in the job. She could end up feeling like she does not understand her work and never will.

      For the shorter term, I have worked with many people who need to be shown how to make judgement calls. Or so it seems to them that they have to decide what to do each time.
      You already gave one starting point here for conversation. You can start your explanation by saying some of the policy rules were written in a different era and suited the needs of that era. However, times have changed and different responses are necessary.
      And you can go example by example. “In situation X policy says do ABC that no longer works because of changes xyz so now we do DEF. No one updated the policy so you won’t find it in the policy manual. ”
      When faced with a parallel situation don’t be afraid to say, “We talked about this before. This is where we do DEF.” Notice how much shorter it is the second time you explain.

      As far as choosing who is right and who is wrong. explain to her that this happens often in work places. For Task A some people use Method B and others use Method C as long at they arrive at End Item D all is well. When faced with two conflicting methods of doing something I usually try to pick the method the boss prefers.
      But I have had two-faced bosses who will favor Method B one day and Method C the next day. In that case I go with what most of the people around me are doing and getting good results each time.

      You can tell her that indecision about which method to use will hold her back in the long run. It’s a good idea to realize there is more than one way of doing something and she needs to pick a method and do it the same way consistently. If your group has a method that is used most often, be sure to tell her this is what everyone else is doing so she can be in sync with their methods.

      But, yeah, either she sorts this or she drowns in doubt and second guessing. If this does not improve at least somewhat, then you can start telling her that she needs to take her questions to the boss because you don’t seem to be that much help to her.

  34. LGC*

    Okay, so I’m dealing with an Office Pooper scenario again. But this time, the office pooper is a different gender! For reference, I’m male, and our office has two shared single gender bathrooms (one each for men and women) on each floor.

    The women’s restroom has been…having issues. We know who the “culprit” is – there have been multiple complaints, including to me directly. The person in question (who is subordinate to me) has been having medical issues recently. For obvious reasons, I’m not going to come out and say that’s what’s up.

    But is there anything else I can suggest to deal with it? We have a pretty high strung team to begin with. I’ve been watching the Poo Pourri ad, but for VERY OBVIOUS REASONS dropping a bottle on her desk would not go over well.

    1. Rebecca*

      You could get Poo Pourri for each bathroom, put it on the back of the toilet, with a little sign “please spray into bowl when you poo” or something along those lines. At my office, someone sent an email stating that Poo Pourri was now available in the bathrooms encouraging its use. That way, the culprit isn’t singled out.

      2. Jadelyn*

        That’s what happened when the fan unit in the women’s room broke at my office. There’s poo pourri in each stall now and emails every so often reminding us to use it.

    2. Colette*

      Are the issues just smell? If so, tell those complaining to cut it out and put poo pourri in the bathroom.

      If there are cleanliness issues, you probably have to talk with your subordinate and ask her to be vigilant about leaving the bathroom clean.

    3. fposte*

      So what *is* up? Is it just that her poo smells especially bad? What action are people requesting here? I gotta say, my impulse is to tell complainers that the bathroom is being used for its intended purpose and you approve of that.

      You can always just put the Poo Pourri in the bathroom and see what happens rather than giving it to an individual. If there’s poor ventilation in the bathroom, can you look into getting a fan or a better fan?

      1. Anon for now*

        Yeah. Unless the bathroom is becoming unusable I would probably say “It’s the bathroom. People poop in bathrooms and there is nothing wrong with that. I am not going to tell someone they can’t use the bathroom when they need it so I’m not sure what it is you expect me to do.”

      2. The Rat-Catcher*

        “….the bathroom is being used for its intended purpose and you approve of that.”

        You are on point as usual, but wow, would that be hard for me to say with a straight face.

    4. LGC*

      So, air freshener/Poo Pourri it is! Only problem is I’d have to convince upper management to let us order it (if you’ve read the articles about Facebook mods…my office can be a bit like that), since I don’t want to stock it out of my own pocket for everyone.

      1. Poo pourri expert*

        You only need one per bathroom! Not one per person. Just leave it on the top of the tank. Sounds like you’d only need two bottles.

        1. LGC*

          …I should also mention that my floor has about 80-100 people on it, and things can tend to grow legs. (I did say that we have a “call center”-like setup!)

          Actually: how long would a bottle last for 50 people? I’d imagine that even if no one took it, it’d go quickly!

          1. Dr. Anonymous*

            Pointedly ask everyone who complains about the poop smell to pony up for a bottle.

      2. Rovannen*

        In our workplace, air fresheners set off the fire alarm if sprayed upwards. We had to put a sign on the can to please spray downwards.

      3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Be aware that air fresheners and other scented products may cause issues for other employees as well.

        I have trouble with scents, and may be unable to use a poorly-ventilated restroom for a while after an air freshener has been sprayed in it. (Breathing trouble, so not really an option to just “ignore” or “suck it up” for the length of a restroom visit.) If everyone starts spraying after their restroom use, I may be effectively unable to use that restroom anymore.

        I don’t enjoy the smell of actual restroom use, but if it’s smelling like that or me not being able to breathe, I’m on team bodily stench.

        1. Gatomon*

          I struggle with air fresheners too. I wonder if a cup of vinegar might help? Kind of odd, but it’s pretty effective at getting rid of odors and wouldn’t require spraying.

  35. Jimming*

    Who else is waiting to hear back about a job interview? I had a few rounds of interviews recently and I’m trying to follow Alison’s advice to put it out of my mind but it’s so hard not to think about it. I don’t really have a question, just a short vent and understanding to anyone in the same situation.

    1. irene adler*

      Yep!
      Had two recently. One was an on-site and the other was phone interview.
      The phone interviewer told me they’d get back to me by Wed (17 July). And she assured me that she was moving my resume on to the next round. So, here it is 19 July and… nothing.

      The on-site was two weeks ago. She did a lot of “what we want in a candidate” talking. I’m never really sure how to respond to such things. As she didn’t really give me an opportunity to respond, I figured I should just acknowledge what she said with the occasional nod. Was I supposed to interrupt her and explain that I understood what she was relaying to me and then offer examples of how I met the criteria she was explaining? I was left with her wanting me to interview with the Q. Engineer and then upper management (who all reside far away). Sounded hopeful to me. But then… nothing. (Yes, I sent the thank you note the very next morning.)

      1. Jimming*

        Maybe she wasn’t a good interviewer? That’s weird. But it sounds like she wants to have someone else meet with you, maybe they’ll be better at it.

        I feel ya, tho. Two days in job interview time is like two weeks for the job seeker! I’m trying to remind myself to be patient but I’m the type of person who gives birthday presents as soon as I buy them because I can’t wait! Haha.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Not interviews, but applications. I keep getting rejections a month after I’ve already written someone off for not replying.

      1. The Most Prolific Author of All Time*

        Rejection buddy! But infinitely preferable to silence for me.

    3. Watermelon M*

      Not at the interview stages yet, but waiting to hear a yes or no from some applications!

    4. TPS Cover Sheet*

      I’ve got two, other one for the second round and the other one is to hear the ”we are sorry”… (I’m an eternal pessimist so I ever get happy surprises). The thing was I was going to hear ”by the end of the week” which didn’t happen. So another weekend of just vegetating ahead…

      1. Jimming*

        I’m with ya…I’d rather know for sure I didn’t have a position than be in limbo. Once I have the information I can plan but until then there’s too many variables and I drive myself nuts.

        Glad I’m not alone!

    5. College Career Counselor*

      YES. Solicited out of the blue about two months ago, very rush-rush, for a process that had actually started weeks before, so they were understandably in a hurry. Crickets since then.

    6. LALAs*

      I had an interview for a job that should be a dream but I heard some concerning things from someone who had the job before. I went into thinking that I still wanted the job and walked out of the interview not sure if I want it at all. And the interview didn’t feel very good. I am conflicted in whether I want to be advanced to the next round or not.
      Luckily, I have a job and this isn’t a dire situation. No choice but to just wait and see.

  36. Wing Leader*

    So, this is just kind of a vent. My husband is currently job searching and I’m trying to help him out as best as I can, so I hired a woman to re-write his resume (it wasn’t Alison, BTW). She came highly recommended and had several positive testimonials. She said she could “get a cook a job at NASA” or something to that effect. I spoke to her and answered all of her questions about my husband’s job, experience. etc. as well as the job he is hoping to get.

    Well, when I got his resume back, she did spruce it up a lot. Actually, she lied about almost everything. (For just one example, she claimed that my husband supervised a large staff and held weekly training meetings with all junior staff. This isn’t even close to true. My husband is in a management role, but it has to do with managing the workings of the business, not people. He doesn’t supervise or train anyone and he never has. I explained this to her). There were several other things as well.

    When I pointed all of this out to her and that she basically added a bunch of lies about everything, she said that’s what you have to do in order to get noticed in the job market nowadays. Oh, and no refunds.

    I’m honestly so bummed. My husband needs a new job bad, and I really thought this woman could help us. Now I’m out that money with a resume he can’t even use (because I don’t believe dishonesty is the way). I don’t even know what we’re going to do now.

    1. L Dub*

      Does your husband have a college degree? If he does, most schools offer resume workshops/career services for current students or alumni. (Most that I’m aware of provide these services online as well, if he’s no longer local to the school.)

      That’s really shitty about the lying on the resume thing.

        1. valentine*

          She said she could “get a cook a job at NASA”
          NASA has cooks.

          Your husband can start as he means to go on by writing his own résumé. He’s the one that needs to know it well so he can chat about it in interviews, and that’s going to be organic if he wrote it and the cover letters, versus studying it like a text. Is there someone he’s worked for in the past who might be willing to advise him on it, or someone he knows who’s in a role similar to what he’s aiming for?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        It is fraud – she completely misrepresented her services, and she’s trying to get her customers to commit low level fraud as well.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        BBB doesn’t do anything. They’re not a governing body. They’re just the original “Glassdoor” or “Yelp”. They take complaints and they do try to rectify them to a certain extent but the best they can do is mark her negatively for anyone who researches and maybe if she wants to keep her score up [most don’t care], she’ll give a refund and the BBB will go ahead and let her keep her squeaky clean rating.

    3. Natalie*

      Any chance you paid her with a credit card? I feel like a charge back would be appropriate here.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Um, why were you talking to this woman about your husbands job search? That was your first mistake. Back off. Let him manage his job search. Your support looks like wishing him luck, encouraging him if he’s down, etc.

      2. Tableau Wizard*

        I can imagine a situation where one partner, who is overwhelmed with a full-time job they are actively trying to leave, might ask for the other partner to assist with something like this. Especially if the other partner is better at these types of things or has more time/mental space.

        Just because it might not be how you’d want to operate, doesn’t mean no one else can.

      3. Moray*

        It’s weird that this needs saying, but…it’s not really your place to police the dynamics of someone else’s marriage?

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Have you read some of the letter’s recently? Actually, sometimes it DOES need saying.

          1. Delphine*

            I believe what Moray is trying to say is that it should not need to be said to *you* that it isn’t your place to police the dynamics of someone else’s marriage.

      5. Jadelyn*

        Someone’s support of their spouse looks like whatever they damn well want it to look like, based on what said spouse wants and needs. I help my fiance with his resume and stuff. I’m in HR and I used to do recruiting, so it’s a skillset I’m stronger in than he is. There’s nothing wrong with that, just because it doesn’t “look like” what you expect it to look like.

    5. Zephy*

      Wow. If you’re able to leave a review anywhere for that lady’s services, absolutely do so. Not only did she put together what amounts to a fake resume, she doubled down when you called her on it. No wonder she has a no-refunds policy – if that’s how she operates for everyone, she’d never keep a cent.

      1. voyager1*

        Sadly there are people who probably think what she is doing is okay and how it is done.

    6. WellRed*

      Report her to BBB, post a review, if possible. Might make you feel slightly better. Also, I think acting as an intermediary, describing your husband’s job to a third party is not going to have great results no matter what, unless there is some reason why he can’t.

    7. Mockingjay*

      She ripped you off. She was not familiar with your husband’s industry and put in a bunch of filler to mask that, instead of doing industry research or asking him more questions to get more details.

      If your husband has colleagues he can trust (someone working for another company would be best), I suggest he ask them for a candid review of his resume. Also look at the job listings in his field (regardless of position). Are there common elements – key words, certs, processes, experience – that his resume or cover letter should address?

    8. Aquawoman*

      Depending on how much it is and your bandwidth on it, I might either push back on the refund–she gave you an unuseable product, or file a small claims case against her (I’m assuming it is small-claims size money). Or start leaving negative reviews of her everywhere.

    9. DukeOfPearl*

      Gross. I hope none of her clients end up getting fired for lying on their resume. Shame on her.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m sorry you paid this scammer!

      This kind of “Business” is most often a scam and you get such a wide variety of results from them.

      You’re best writing up his resume yourself. Then having someone just proof read it if possible. Use tutorials and guidelines.

      And also understand that the resume just needs to be clean and easy to read, he’s already done an impressive job given what you’ve said he does. So he shouldn’t need to lie at all, he just needs the document to be presentable and get his foot in the door to talk himself up. No “Professional” could do that for him. It’s a scam industry and it breaks my GD heart.

      I agree if she took your money via paypal or you used a credit card, file a chargeback for fraud.

      1. Jimming*

        Just because this person is a scammer doesn’t mean the whole industry is a scam. There are a lot of excellent, qualified resume writers out there. Good ones won’t talk with a 3rd party about the resume they were writing, but work directly with the person whose resume it is.

        1. OhBehave*

          So true Jimming. Painting an industry with a fraud brush is not fair at all! Nor is it true.

    11. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Check the website for your local public library and see if they provide access to any job related database sources. Ours is called “Career Transitions,” and the resume builder and interview practice module are so, so helpful. It won’t recoup your money from the scammer, but it can get your husband a serviceable resume that can jump start his job search.

    12. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      If you found this scammer through a referral service of some kind, you can report her there as well. They may stop referring future work to her and/or letting her advertise her work on their service. (Or they may not care.) If the recommenders were people you know, you can also let them know about your experience with her. If the testimonials are on a site not controlled by her, you can also leave negative reviews in those locations.

    13. Lilysparrow*

      Hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but if someone is bragging about getting their clients jobs that they are completely unqualified for (ie, a cook at NASA), that’s a red flag. A good career/resume consultant is going to talk about getting people jobs that are a good fit for their skills and experience.

      I realize that isn’t useful to you now, but I’m throwing it out there for people who may be looking to hire this kind of help in future.

      There’s a lot of good info here on the site about prepping a resume yourself, and I agree with others about seeing if you can dispute the charge with your credit card, or something like that.

      And if any of those recommendations were from people you know personally, you might tell them what happened and advise them not to recommend her anymore.

      Of course, if you do that, you may discover more than you wanted to know about your acquaintances’ own ethics in job searching.

    14. Arts Akimbo*

      I think we have an answer to “How do incompetent people keep getting jobs?” This woman and others like her (fraudulent resume’ doctors) may be partially to blame!

      Headline: NEW MARS ROVER CRASHES – LEAD PROJECT ENGINEER ACTUALLY A COOK

  37. Lauren*

    Has anyone ever expatriated to a different country for work before? My work is sending me to Australia (Sydney) for a few months to help out in the office there (from the US – East Coast). What advice do you have?

    Work is helping with Visas/Taxes and providing housing allowance etc. Is there anything else I need to ask for?

    1. Venus*

      I had less effort in sorting out my new location (I just rented a place for a few months, and the visas were sorted out fairly easily), and more effort in sorting out my stuff at ‘home’ (someone to check on my place, ensuring my bills were paid as they came in the mail, suspending the cellphone, healthcare coverage paperwork, etc)

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Will your company be using a relocation service? On the few occasions my work has had somebody moving from another continent (or UK to mainland Europe) they have used a relocation service to help with finding accommodation, setting up bank accounts and healthcare and the paperwork for residence permits.

        1. Lauren*

          I won’t, unfortunately. I’ll have help with paperwork (visa & taxes), but not for the rest. Since it’s a shorter stay I’m not sure how much I’ll actually need to get set up there. Healthcare is a good point though – I’ll need to make sure I have coverage somehow.

      2. Lauren*

        Good point! The ‘home’ stuff is already more overwhelming than the ‘new location’ stuff and I’ve barely started!

    2. It's the little things*

      I moved to the US from the UK for work – healthcare is something to be clear on as that changes wildly from country to country. The other thing is I found that I didn’t actually speak the same language like I thought I did – many hours spent wandering around grocery stores looking for basics that have different names, and products that are staples at home don’t even exist, so be prepared for a culture shock, even between English speaking countries. Last thing would be office and business norms – it takes a while but they are very different and it’s worth getting a buddy of sorts so you can ask the ‘stupid’ questions and feel more comfortable. I found meeting norms were different, levels of formality, acceptable levels of emotion etc.
      Good luck, it will be a great experience!!

      1. Lauren*

        Thanks! I’m excited to go! Great advice! I’m already preparing myself to feel a little lost sometimes. I have a coworker who went to that office for a few weeks at the beginning of the year and I’ve been grilling him on the office culture there.

      2. PX*

        This. I worked for a big company which had a fairly standard policy of moving people around every few years, and culture shock – especially in the workplace can be a big thing. I’d advise doing as much reading up as you can on this front to help out. Expat blogs, things like Internations or even the weekend thread would probably be good places to start.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Find out about transportation. Will you need a car? If you need a car, your company should look into how to lease or otherwise provide one for you. I remember issues with this when the company my stepfather worked for had someone over to the USA from Japan for a year or two and getting a car for him ended up being a major obstacle for reasons I wasn’t particularly in the loop on (I just ended up being the one giving him rides places at times due to his lack of car, which was an awkward situation for someone of his age and pay grade to be dealing with). You would also want the company to help you out with any needed driver’s licensing or insurance issues that might come up.

    4. GreyNerdShark*

      Check the sidebar at reddit.com/r/sydney. Lots of useful info there. Ask for more info if you need it as they are a friendly bunch.

      Short term rentals are tricky in Sydney as its all airbnb now. Usual suggestion is get an airbnb for ancouple of weeks so you can get an idea of the landscape. Remember that rentals in Oz are weekly not monthly!
      Transport depends on where work is. Trains are best if a bit crowded on some lines. If work is in the CBD Then get a place near a train station. You should only need a car if work is not served by trains. See transportnsw.info . Some areas have good bus coverage so check that too before thinking about a car.

      Do check healthcare. If you are from the US you will need cover,ask your employer’s fund if they cover.
      We are 24ov not 110v. Make sure your electrics can cope. They are expensive here BTW. As are most things.
      We are coming into summer so it is warming up. Temps will be mid to high 20s(degC) and by Nov in the 30s.

  38. Feeling Miserable*

    Need advice on how to tell my boss I’m feeling stressed and miserable without saying “I’m feeling stressed and miserable.”

    I’ve been at my new job for less than 3 months and my 90-day review is coming up next week. I really like my boss and think I’m doing a great job based on the feedback I have received, however I am constantly feeling overwhelmed and these feelings are making me hate my job.

    My company is very big about work/life balance and in fact our operating hours (9-5) don’t even amount to a full 40 hour work week. However, I am often coming in early, working through lunch and staying late to finish my work. Part of my workload concerns our Board of Directors. I’m the liaison to the board, and while I have worked directly with boards before, this group is very difficult and opinionated, and they require way more time and effort on my end than I had anticipated. For example, my last board I worked with met quarterly. My current board meets at least six times a month. My boss also feels overworked by the board and is working on bringing fresh faces to this group that can change the dynamics and lessen the burden on staff, but it will take some time before we see any major changes.

    Another thing I am growing resentful about is the fact that I feel like my boss is passing off other peoples’ work to me, because they are either on vacation or too busy. As another example, we are switching banks and our Director of Finance was going to facilitate the transition. Instead I am the one who is gathering all the paperwork and communicating with the bank, which has been a huge time suck. I also had to take care of submitting all our insurance renewal paperwork when my boss and HR Director were on vacation. I didn’t know anything about insurance and was very stressed at having to dig for answers and figure this out on my own.

    It really bothers me when I spend so much time working, and then I see other people who I have had to cover for leave on time/early or take a vacation, meanwhile I have been working my butt off. I worry if my workload doesn’t lessen I will not last here long. It’s a bad sign that I’m barely 90 days in and I’m already feeling burned out. I feel my 90-day review will be a good time for me to express my concerns to my boss, but I’m struggling to find the most tactful or professional way to convey these feelings. Help!

    1. Jillaine*

      You need to talk to your boss! She may have no idea that you’re feeling this way! You don’t even need to wait for your 90 day review – you can have this conversation today. Sit down with her and tell her that you feel like there’s too much on your plate- That you’ve been coming in early, staying late etc. to get everything done. If you’ve been getting good feedback, your boss (assuming she’s a good boss) is going to be more worried about making sure you’re happy and that you stay, rather than making sure work gets done.

      Alison answers a similar question and has some good advice here: https://www.askamanager.org/transcript-of-im-drowning-in-too-much-work

    3. Zephy*

      It sounds like you’re in an admin-assistant/executive-assistant sort of role? If so, then…well, that’s the job. There may not be much you or your boss can really do about it. It sounds like it’s not a matter of you being asked to do things and denied access to the resources you need to do them, it’s just a lot of things to do that you’re not super-familiar with yet, which is to be expected at a new job.

      Alison has talked before about how to tactfully say no to your boss or otherwise “negotiate” your workload – matter-of-factly asking your boss how to prioritize tasks X, Y, and Z and saying you can finish X and Z this week but not Y, or prioritize Y and leave X and Z for later, and which would he prefer that you do? is one way to approach it. If you’ve gotten positive feedback so far, you could frame it as “I want to continue doing the caliber of work that you’ve seen out of me, but I don’t think the way I’ve been going about doing it is sustainable,” and then have the priorities conversation. At least your boss is aware of the issues with the BOD and says he’s trying to make changes there, so fingers crossed on that front.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        That’s not a great attitude.

        It sounds like they’re understaffed if they’re passing work from people who are “too busy” to someone who already has a very full plate. They need to hear it.

      2. Jadelyn*

        While an AA or EA might take care of a wide variety of tasks, that doesn’t generally extend to doing niche work for other folks like managing major finance (!) or HR (!!) tasks. If they’re big enough to have finance and HR as separate departments with their own Directors, they’re too big to be relying on one single admin to cover for high-level folks on such role-specific tasks as changing banks and renewing insurance coverage.

        1. Patty Mayonnaise*

          Exactly. I think it will be helpful to the OP to parse out what IS actually part of the job (dealing with the cranky board members) and what is going above and beyond (all the finance and HR stuff – I am super surprised they have pushed that onto OP!), and focusing on changing the bigger/somewhat inappropriate asks.

    4. Forkeater*

      I’d suggest writing out your thoughts ahead of time and have someone else look it over, then stick the the script during your meeting. You have valid concerns, but you want to be sure to be diplomatic.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      I would say something along the lines of “The learning curve is a bit steeper than I anticipated coming in. So many things are different than my last position, such as the board meeting so frequently and covering for vacations so early in my tenure that it is causing significantly more stress than I normally have with a new position. Is there any way we can have me not cover X’s vacation and push the bank transfer back onto Finance’s plate? I honestly don’t feel I can take that on while still trying to facilitate the board meetings and my regular duties with the limited knowledge I have.”

      1. Boom! Tetris for Jeff!*

        I think other comments here are good. But I wanted to throw one more item into the mix. Do you have a probationary period? If it’s 90 days and you are very close to the end of it, I would let that review pass and then bring up your concerns after you are no longer easily dispensable.

    6. Alphabet Pony*

      Does your boss know what your workload is like? Do talk to them as others have said – it could help if you write a list of everything you have on your plate and ask your boss what to prioritise.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Possible opening script… “There is not enough time in a 40/45/50 hour work week to do everything I’ve been assigned. Which of these things can be postponed until the top items are complete?” …then show a numbered list of tasks & deliverables.
      Good luck!

  39. Bananatiel*

    I’m almost a year into a new job and I’m encountering something I haven’t yet at other jobs. I’ve been pulled into a few meetings at the last minute (like getting an instant message to come to a meeting in the middle of it to discuss my project). I’m never asked to present something last-minute, it’s usually just so I can get critical information which I appreciate getting in person instead of via email. But… I’m noticing that there will often be an awkward period where the meeting starts to move on from what was relevant to me and I kind of feel stuck in the room. There’s no clear “thank you for dropping in, and now on to x project” transition where I can gracefully exit because sometimes the conversation bounces between projects.

    Should I just be… excusing myself? Explicitly ask if they’re done discussing my project? I’m not used to this type of free-flowing meeting culture so I’d appreciate some advice from others who’ve lived it! It feels rude to interrupt since I’m always the most junior in the room and my boss is usually present. At the same time… it feels incredibly awkward to hear about things that have nothing to do with me. And naturally, it’s ultimately a waste of my time, too.

    1. Bananatiel*

      I should probably add, what further complicates this is that the other projects being discussed are usually adjacent to my project to the point that it’s potentially useful for me to hear that information but not really. Kind of hard to explain without talking explicitly about what I do, ha. But it’s why I suspect my boss or someone else doesn’t dismiss me or look at me like “why are you here still?”, maybe they think I want to hear about these things?

      1. fposte*

        In that case, ask your boss outside of meeting time what she’d generally want you to do in these cases, and be ready with an answer of what *you* generally want to do. Would it be valuable for you to get some exposure to these discussions? Would you run behind on what’s waiting for you back at the desk if you stay at the meeting?

      2. OtterB*

        Since this has happened more than once, I’d say ask your boss directly how you should handle it. I can see that it would seem rude for them to dismiss you. The choices are learning more about the organization and its other projects (which has some benefit), or getting back to your work, which also clearly has some benefit.

      3. Interplanet Janet*

        I get this sometimes, and I just ask. “Sorry to interrupt, but do you need me for anything else or should just I get back to it?”

      4. Bananatiel*

        Thank you all! I’m coming from a job with a bad boss prior to this so I sometimes forget I can broach these things with my boss outside of the moment they’re happening. I think I’ll casually bring it up at our next one on one!

    2. fposte*

      I’ve done that. I think it’s fine to say “If we’re done with Perch Planning, I’ll leave you all to the rest of the agenda; thanks” and smoothly exit. If they’ve already started talking with great force about the Cuttlefish Project, you might do the movement first without comment, and then if people stop for a second because you’re moving you can just say “Thanks, all; have a good meeting!” as you keep walking. Especially if you’re obviously called in in the middle it’s not going to be a big puzzlement that you’re leaving.

  40. Sad and Mad*

    So, I have an awkward situation. My grandmother died a month ago. I was particularly close to her. I took a couple days off for the funeral, and then when right back to work. I’m having a hard time. It sucks. Whatever.

    We are allowing people from another company to use our office space for a bit because theirs flooded. We mingle with them a bit but don’t work with them. One of the women from their company, her grandmother just passed. The office manager at our company got a sympathy card for all us to sign. Ummm. I got no sympathy card. I got some hugs because a few tears leaked out in the days following. Some “I’m sorry’s.” But that’s it. I feel really hurt by this. I know it’s probably an innocent oversight, but the little things really matter when you lose someone. I’m pissed off now. And a little sad. Should I say something and make then feel bad? Or should I suck it up?

    1. Bananatiel*

      Considering it’s coming from the office manager and not just another coworker, it might be worth broaching the subject with HR that you do feel weird/hurt by it and that you’d like to see equal treatment moving forward. In my office a lot of the cards that get passed around just come from coworkers and not leadership/executive assistants which makes it less of a clear “office tradition”, but in your case, I think there should be care taken for equal treatment of everyone in terms of cards.

        1. Sunflower*

          I don’t know your comfort level with this but do you have a close coworker who would feel comfortable bringing this up? Something similar happened to my work BFF and she was upset but didn’t feel comfortable saying something- I offered to point it out the office person and she was happy for me to do that.

          1. valentine*

            Let it go. This person needs extra care because they’re displaced.

            Is there something larger here? Do you feel overlooked or harshly treated there, in general? Even if sympathy cards are a standard in your office, they’ll miss someone occasionally. If what you really want is for them to show they care about you (personally?), either there are other ways they can do that, or it’s not their thing.

    2. Carrie Heffernan*

      Oh man I’m sorry. When my Dad died, I got no card but when my coworker broke his ankle, the entire department signed one for him. Sorry again for your loss.

      1. Sad and Mad*

        Oh my GOSH I had to laugh. Made me feel a little better, but I’m so sorry that happened!! And I’m also sorry for your loss. It all sucks, and it’s not like a card will make it better, but the absence of sympathy/thoughtfulness really hurts.

        1. Gumby*

          Yes, honestly “send an actual sympathy card” is an aspect of being a grown adult that I adopted fairly late. And that was prompted from my own experience when one of my brothers died. I didn’t pay attention to anyone I might have expected to hear from but didn’t, but hearing from the people who did send a card I didn’t expect was unusually touching.

          But when you are grieving all sorts of things hit you in weird ways (or did in my experience). The lack of acknowledgement is probably heightened because of your grief.

    3. Ann Perkins*

      I’m sorry for your loss. In a group with no HR but the office manager organizes these, I think it depends on what kind of relationship you have with your office manager. If it’s a good relationship, I think a heads up can help that “Hey, nothing we can do about this now, but going forward please be cognizant of treating all employees equally on these matters is important.”

      These sorts of things suck even though they are usually not intended with malice. Right after I went on maternity leave #2, our office had a baby shower for a coworker expecting his second. I’m all for the dads getting baby showers too but the optics were incredibly odd that I, the visibly pregnant mom, didn’t get one. We’d had an office manager change during that time and the newer one was much more warm-hearted about these sorts of things.

      1. Sad and Mad*

        That’s awful. I mean, I understand if one person makes that oversight, but then the whole company joins in and no one points out the the actual pregnant person didn’t get a shower? That’s why I find this so annoying, everyone’s signing her card and no one is saying anything about my lack of card. I guess it wouldn’t really be on their minds, though.

    4. Tableau Wizard*

      I’m so sorry for your loss and to hear about how your company didn’t show sympathy. That sucks. My grandmother and I are especially close too, and I can’t imagine how hard this must be for you.

      If I’m being honest though, I probably wouldn’t say anything. I doubt there’s anything they can do to change the situation and as hard as it is, it’s probably best to just try to reframe it as an honest mistake.
      Does the office manager have any extra relationship with the woman from the other company? Like do they know each other outside of work “more” than she knows you or anything?

      1. Sad and Mad*

        No, they didn’t know each other before and they don’t have a close relationship now. If anything, the office manager actually knows my mom and has been out in social settings with her – I wouldn’t say they’re friends, but they know each other and are fond of each other. And my mom is the one who lost her mom! It’s all just strange.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      Same here. I got a couple cards from some coworkers I am really close to but nothing from my “team”. Lost both my FIL and Grandfather while working here. Boss was very generous with time off and some spaciness around that time so that actually meant more to me than a card (but I totally get what you are saying since in the moment it felt really shitty and was just another thing that made me want to cry).

    6. Ra94*

      I’m so sorry, Sad and Mad. I don’t think there’s much you can do here, unfortunately, beyond keeping it as a wry anecdote to share with friends in the years to come. People can be infinitely callous and insensitive and unthinking. This is pure speculation, but…I wonder if your office manager is suggesting the card as a way of ‘networking with’ or sucking up to the other company. In other words, if the card is motivated by practical gain and not genuine sympathy, maybe that takes some sting out of being left out?

      I had a similar-but-not story at my office, which is also tiny and has no HR. For my birthday, my boss got me a birthday card with a $25 gift card inside, and took everyone for lunch, which was lovely. A month later, my colleague, who is equal in hierarchy to me, got the same for her birthday…plus a gigantic bouquet of flowers, an afternoon off, and a paid-for pedicure. My first instinct was to be upset, but ultimately I could only laugh, especially as the GIANT bouquet was such a hilariously on-the-nose symbol of the disparity. My boss sucks in other ways, so ultimately there was no point focusing on this small example. I’m guessing your office manager has shown other negatives, too?

  41. Anon for this*

    Hey Guys! It’s me, the poster whos boss has been traveling / on vacation for the past 2 months during our busy season and I am drowning in work.
    Yesterday Boss came back from a conference and we had a discussion about some of the projects of his that blew up while he was gone. He made it clear he was disappointed in the way I handled it (he was annoyed I called to ask headquarters for advice on how to do a process I never did before. If I didn’t do it 100% perfectly we would have lost thousands of dollars. Headquarters let me know that they were aware of the issue and handled it already).

    He then told me if I wasn’t confident enough to not have people check my work he doesn’t need me anymore. When I pointed out that I have been here for a year, am way ahead of the learning curve (his direct quote from my yearly review and this is a technical role that takes 3 years to be 100% in all procedures ) and wanted to make sure my work was up to the standard he backed down.

    This morning I came in at 6:30 am to get a jump on all the work I am drowning in after staying late the night before. I am trying to do as much as I can but there are only so many hours in a day. When I asked if he was able to take 1 or 2 things off my 30 item long to-do list he was stunned that I wasn’t able to handle many small-dollar (but still time-sensitive) projects when he can handle 4 large dollar projects (Is this normal thinking?)

    I think I just screwed myself over by asking for help.

    2. WellRed*

      It’s not normal thinking, any of this. What kind of asshole says things like “He then told me if I wasn’t confident enough to not have people check my work he doesn’t need me anymore.”
      “I can do A or B, but not both. What should I prioritize?” Rinse, lather, repeat. I realize you’ve been given this advice already, but it’s really all you can do while you look for another job. I am enraged on your behalf.

      2. Sharkie*

        Before he left this week I asked him and he told me to use my best judgment AKA the EXACT way he does things.

    4. Also a project manager*

      Not normal thinking. It shouldn’t matter whether it’s small projects or large projects or time-sensitive projects or not. You’re way over-capacity and your boss isn’t being realistic with his expectations (evident by his backing down when you pointed it out to him) or reasonable with the taskings.

      Sounds to me like you need to book some time off as soon as the busy season is over. Or, if you can’t make it till then, ask your doctor for a note excusing you a day or two for mental health.

      1. Anon for this*

        I have a long weekend scheduled soon and I have a gut feeling he is going to un-approve it. (He has taken 2-week long vacations though in the 2 months “just because”

    5. Anon for this*

      OMG HE IS TAKING MONDAY OFF BECAUSE HE IS TOO STRESSED AND MEANWHILE I HAVE BROKEN OUT IN STRESS HIVES (YES ON MY FACE TOO) AND PRAYING THAT BENADRYL MIGHT HELP

      sorry for the yelling

      1. Woah*

        Omg. I am so sorry. He is a really terrible boss. I feel like stress hives is something you document and talk to HR about since your being so massively belittled and mistreated.

          1. PX*

            Do you doubt or know for sure? I’ve been sort of following your threads and just want to say if you don’t think retaliation is a real risk – what’s the worst that could happen if you DID send send a pointed email to them about his behaviour? As some other commenters have mentioned below, it sounds like he gets away with this awful behaviour because there is no one to call him on it. I’m a big fan of making a fuss if that’s a feasible option.

            Seriously, how much worse could it get?

            Otherwise the alternative is to job hunt as much as you can. And simply prioritise as you see fit and if he doesn’t like it, make him actually manage…but don’t give yourself a burnout for this [insert expletive of choice here]

      2. Gumby*

        I mean, stress hives sound like a medical condition to me which certainly would merit a sick day…

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      The dollar amount of the project does not always equate with the amount of time and effort involved in completing the project. But since he obviously doesn’t think that way what is the total revenue of your 30+ small dollar projects? What is the total of his 4 projects? Also what is the due date of the 4 larger projects?
      Your’s may be smaller value but in total I bet they are probably as much or more than his 4 projects.
      Also remind him that you have handled ALL the projects since he hasn’t been there during the busiest season.

      And who the hell approved that time off?????

      1. Anon for this*

        His 4 projects will be close to 250k, Everything I am handling will be close to 90-100k but they are all “we need an estimate yesterday” and there are only so many “I am sorry for the delay we are short staffed” emails before clients get angry. All of his due dates are in 2 weeks. my due dates were yesterday.

        1. Gumby*

          Could you offer to trade? (I’m just defaulting to complete sarcasm now because this is so so so crazy unfair.)

    7. Policy Wonk*

      He sounds like a real peach. If you aren’t already looking for a new job, I’d start now.

      1. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        +1 Definitely start looking. Your boss sounds like a real piece of work.

    9. Anonymouse for this*

      The fact that he was annoyed you rang Headquarters could mean he’s worried they are going to find out he’s been dumping his workload on you and being a rubbish manager.

      I think you said last week that the Main office can’t help but maybe if you reach out to them again with another problem when he’s out on they might wonder what is going on and step in and do something.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I think it’s exactly this. He’s mad at you for asking for help because it exposed the fact that he hasn’t taught you properly. Basically, he’s the non-custodial parent who gets mad at the kids for telling the custodial parent they had ice cream for breakfast on their visit.

        He’s basically putting you in a no-win scenario. If you ask for help, he says you’re not good enough at your job. If you don’t ask for help and you make a mistake, he says you’re not good at your job. He’s setting you up to fail, and that’s not okay. Keep asking for help when you need it, and start applying for other jobs, because the one you have does not deserve you.

    10. Observer*

      Please start looking for a new job. Your boss is NOT a good manager. He essentially threatened to fire you for asking for help from HR. Who does that?

      So, find a new job and tell him that since he “doesn’t need you”, you found a place that does need you.

      1. Anon for this*

        lol now he got mad at me because I have never sent a fax before and was standing at the copier looking at an how to fax guide online. I am 26, everything is email now and we are not in an industry where faxing is normal. He was stunned that I have never faxed before and thought I was texting and distracted in my phone. Sorry I was in Kindergarten in the 90’s and not working

        1. Jadelyn*

          He sounds like…I honestly don’t have words. Just sympathy and maybe the offer of a tire iron that ought to meet his kneecaps in the parking lot after work.

    11. Mysterious Trousers*

      Nothing but sympathy for a very difficult situation.

      I would encourage you to continue (or start) looking for new employment or a new position with a different manager if that type of job is available where you are working (and you like the company/culture.)

      But do it BEFORE your self-esteem takes a beating or you are terminated for ‘not getting your work done.’

      I just resigned (in lieu of term) from a management position where I had a manager who sounds very similar to your own: Annual audit requiring two weeks of onsite meetings with auditors? Management schedules coinciding vacation (not once, but twice in 6 months.) Major software conversion where management has made themself the point-man for every decision? Management schedules two-week trip to Hawaii. Spouse needs skin tag removed? Management must drive spouse to and from doctor in a town one hour away and cannot come to work afterward. Management’s spouse’s ex-in-law’s dog needs to go to the local vet? Management must take dog to the vet while stay-at-home-spouse… stays at home. Management’s spouse’s great-great-child-relative plays in first pee-wee football game during preparation for a critical reporting period? Management takes three days off.

      One year I tracked my manager using 9 weeks of vacation time, while only having four and logging NONE of it. (Consequently, those four weeks of unused time would rollover to the next year…)

      Like you, I was going in early and working late and still struggling: my work; my manager’s work; the work of a direct who had left my department but we were too understaffed to farm the work out to someone in the department who would be able to finish it quickly.

      As my manager was terminating me (for not getting enough work done) they had the gall to look at me and say, “And you know what we have coming up.”

      It took every fiber of my being not to say, “I guess you’re going to have to show up to work then, aren’t you?”

      Talk to HR if they are trustworthy. How about your manager’s manager? (Neither of mine were – also an indicator of the problems at this institution.)

      Get out while you can.

  42. Myrin*

    Ugh, I’ll be travelling to a conference on Tuesday where I’ll be giving a talk on Friday and I do. Not. Want.

    Apart from the fact that I got invited there almost two years ago when I still thought I’d want to stay in academia after my dissertation is finished and was, as such, very excited about it, while in the meantime I’ve come to realise that I don’t want to stay in academia at all and as such, giving talks won’t be needed for my future anymore and I’d rather focus on my dissertation; apart from all that, I’m also not satisfied with my talk.

    It annoys me greatly because I’m a very good speaker and have been praised numerous times for my “outstanding” ability to connect dots and analyse situations, but this stupid thing just won’t yield any worthwhile results. My advisor and I came up with the topic a year ago and it sounded so interesting and like a lot could come of it and now it’s just… well, I’m describing stuff and explaining stuff and showing stuff but I don’t really have a great conclusion, so while I imagine it’s interesting to listen to, it will leave the attendants with a feeling of “Okay, and what did I learn from that, now?”.

    It’s beyond frustrating. I’m revising for the n-th time now and have a feeling I’ll be able to make it better and more results-driven than before but I’m still annoyed with myself and the situation at large. Which is a shame because I love my subject and all the talks sound really interesting and like I could learn a lot and instead of looking forward to it, I’m just sitting here grumbling my way through my notes and powerpoint.

    1. OtterB*

      Re your proposal, any chance you can frame it as “here are some research directions this suggests.” Because even if you don’t have great results, you often have ruled some things out.

      Good luck with it.

      1. Myrin*

        All my thoughts have been going in that direction and I even made some notes to that extent but somehow, your phrasing here seems particularly great and is already helping me clear my mind. Thank you!

        (Also, a general edit to my post: I’ll be leaving on Thursday, not Tuesday. It’s not even that long! It’s three days! But I’m still glad when it’s over.)

        1. OtterB*

          Glad it helped. Also, that was clearly supposed to be “presentation” rather than “proposal.”

    2. NotMyRealName*

      I don’t know what field you are in, but in mine, conferences are a great place to make connections for that non-academic job. Talk to the industry people there about how they got into their jobs and what they like about them. We industry types can be a lot of fun!

      1. Myrin*

        I would love that but alas, this is an academic conference and only academics will be present! :’D

    3. Gumby*

      I’m in industry and our technical staff give talks as part of the interview process so… think of it as a dress rehearsal for your eventual interviews?

    4. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      You might want to think of the transferable skills you’ll be demonstrating when you give this talk. It might be beneficial to you to give the talk even though it isn’t any longer related to what you want to be doing. Try to think of it that way.

    5. Anon. Scientist*

      If it’s any consolation, I ended up having a totally unexciting thesis and didn’t draw any great conclusions other than “all these different things we tried didn’t work, but we did learn something new about the methods” and I was just honest about it when presenting it at conferences. I opened with a joke about it because everyone else was selling their “perfect” research, and I ended up winning an award for best (grad) student presentation.

  43. AnotherLibrarian*

    So, I’m not sure how to navigate something at my work. I have resigned my current position for a new position which I am extremely excited about; however, it is at an institution that is facing a great deal of political and financial upheaval at the moment. I have considered all of the consequences of my decision and I am well aware of the risks. I still think this is the right choice for me at this time. Unfortunately, the upheaval has received national attention and several people have expressed to be concern that I shouldn’t make this move at this time. Can you suggest some language that I might use to reroute the conversation?

    1. Bananatiel*

      I think part of it you’ve already said– that you’ve considered all the consequences and are aware of the risks! I think you can also frame it as “I’m looking forward to shaping a new culture there”/”helping bring stability” or whatever feels relevant to say since I’m not sure what the exact nature of the controversy is. I worked for a few years in a place that was regionally famous for a lot of crazy leadership/cultural changes and I would just cheerfully confront doubters by using lines similar to that. The cheerful tone really puts a damper on things so I highly recommend that as well– it’s hard for someone to continue being negative in the face of extreme positivity :) Good luck in the new position!

  44. Mimmy*

    Yesterday I took a bold step and introduced myself on a professional listserv for a field I’m hoping to get into (higher education disability services). Almost right away someone wrote to me privately who just happened to be at a campus I’m close to. He invited me to apply for an opening in their department as well as an opportunity to speak about his experience and ask questions.

    I’m nowhere near qualified for the position he had, but I am meeting with him on Tuesday.

    I was just analyzing the position to see how far I am from being qualified for something similar….and I have a WAYS to go :( Part of that is because the job I’m in now is per-diem/PT and hasn’t grown. Oh sure, I’m better at what I currently do than I was 2 years ago, but the duties have not expanded. Finding ways to fill in those gaps has been challenging. Ahh the joys of working for state government :/

      1. Mimmy*

        That’s fair – I’ll admit to self-selecting myself out of jobs in the past due to not meeting the requirements perfectly. For this particular job, many of the qualifications were under “preferred qualifications”. I still think I’m too far off the mark because it requires knowledge in an area of disability services that I’m not very familiar with. Oh sure I could read it up on it, but I’d feel like I’d be cramming because the guy who contacted me said they’re doing second-round interviews this coming week.

        That doesn’t mean I’m not throwing in the towel. I’m still going to learn as much as I can going forward.

        1. Alphabet Pony*

          I’ve worked in a similar area in the past and I personally think your interpersonal skills, empathy etc matter far more than knowledge which you can acquire. As long as you are capable of learning the info, there are things that matter more than knowledge! Good luck!

          1. Mimmy*

            Thank you! I’m meeting with the guy for a more informal talk on Tuesday. He’s the director of the accessibility center at the school–they coordinate assistive technology, sign language interpreters and ADA compliance, among other things. I appreciate all the good luck wishes I can get…I have to make this worth my while!!!

  45. Languid Lima beans*

    Executive director and development director are at a national conference this week while the rest of us are at home office enjoying the vacation.

    We discovered that despite all the drama about belt-tightening, the DD was rewarded with a $300 office chair despite none of us having new chairs in quite a while. We’re all now going to ask for new chairs.

    A co-worker, in programs, has been working with a High School group for quite a few years and they’ve won the opportunity to go pitch their idea at an events next month. The high school kids asked for this co-worker to go with them and help them prepare. The very large company hosting the event provided us a generous stipend to cover travel hotel and food for everyone who wants to attend. Funds are the issue. The ED has been trying to milk this stipend by clamping down on hotel costs and meal costs for the kids despite the fact that the high school students are doing us a favor because if they win we are awarded a $75,000 grant. The co-worker was devastated and is now seriously wondering why she’s staying at this organization.

    We found out yesterday, while the ED and DD are at a National conference, through an email from a different organization attending the conference, that our organization will be hosting next year’s National conference. The ED, has not even texted us to let us know about the good news.

    We visited our co-worker who is on maternity leave. she hasn’t decided if she’s coming back or not but is actively looking for another position.

    I’m having cognitive dissonance about how I feel about what’s happening, not directly to me, but to my co-workers and organization. I don’t like what’s going on yet I enjoy the work not necessarily who I work for. I have experience in this career field and I have to carefully word my dissent so as not to feel like I’m telling them this is what they should do as I’ve done their jobs before.

    1. Gumby*

      Do you just get to keep the portion of the stipend not used for its intended purpose? Is there any reporting process to the hosting company? One way to push back on Her Miserliness would to point out how it would look to your generous sponsors.

  46. Jedi Librarian*

    This is kinda a weird question, but I want to come out at work. I’m in a relationship with a cis male so it’s not immediately obvious but: I’m bi. And I want to be more open about it cause I’m tired of not acknowledging it. This is a large part of my life even if it doesn’t seem it to some people.

    So: what would y’all suggest? How, if you’re comfortable with sharing, did you come out? I don’t want to make it a huge deal. And it might be weird to just go “oh btw I’m bi. I like girls too not just boys.” And it’s not really something that i think will come up naturally any time soon.

    I will say that I do know this is a liberal place so I’m not worried about judgement. And I am actually friends with a fair amount of them. There’s 8 of us where we hang out semi-regularly and play dnd. But still not sure how to go about it.

    1. Kiwiii*

      I tend to mention ex-girlfriends and see how that falls with a couple of my favorite people. If they don’t react negatively at all, I just keep throwing the info into more conversations and eventually everyone knows. It doesn’t have to be a big thing, like if someone mentions a restaurant, I’ll go “oh, my ex and I used to go there all the time; she’s obsessed with their margarita pizza”

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        This seems like a good solution. I would find it odd if a coworker just sort of announced it, but if it came up naturally in conversation than I wouldn’t find that odd at all.

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          Yes it definitely will be less awkward if it is just part of a conversation than blurting it out at lunch. Throwing in an ex-girlfriend during a conversation or if out at happy hour with close coworkers start of game of “hall pass” and make yours a female celebrity you find particularly attractive.
          My cousin came out to me when I noticed a particularly large and beautiful tattoo and commented on it. She said Yeah…I had to cover up so and so’s (very feminine) name. We got each other’s names tattooed on our arms one night while out drinking and after we broke up I needed to get it covered.

      2. TSG*

        Same, I’m dating a transman and we just look like a straight couple when we’re together and most people who don’t know me well assume I’m straight. At work I have a little rainbow flag I keep in my cupholder, because I don’t think most people would recognize the bi flag well enough. I try not to force it into conversation unnecessarily, but if I’m chatting with people and it becomes relevant enough to say something like “oh my ex-girlfriend was also really into knitting but i could never get the hang of it” etc to mention it that way. No one’s ever asked for clarification, I think it gets the point across well enough.

        1. Squeeble*

          I was going to mention the flag, too–a few queer folks I know have it displayed at their desk. Seems like a good option for work.

      3. merp*

        This is what I came here to say. It’s been low-key every time and I get the benefit of feeling like I get to be myself at work, even though similar to you, it probably wouldn’t come up some other way.

      4. noahwynn*

        Bi male here, but that’s my normal tactic as well. I don’t really come out and say “I’m bi” but I do tend to casually bring up both ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends.

      5. Dust Bunny*

        This. I would have no idea what any of my coworkers’ orientations were except that they’ve mentioned past or current partners.

      6. Jadelyn*

        Yep, ex-girlfriends in casual conversation are my go-to as well. I also have a piece of bi pride flag art hanging next to my desk.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      I put a visibility matters rainbow sticker on my laptop, and have mentioned ex-girlfriends and ex-boyfriends before in appropriate conversations. I don’t know if my coworkers specifically know my orientation, but they’re aware I’m some type of lgbtqa+. Last job, I’d wear bi-specific buttons on national coming out day and pride month. I never specifically announced to anyone, but I’m pretty sure anyone who thinks about it is aware.
      (though that reminds me, I need to order some of the queerchemistry enamel pins before pride march this year)

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Oh, I like the pins idea. That would work well, I think. I know I have a colleague with a gay son, so she keeps a pride flag pin on her bulletin board.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      A former co-worker brought me up to speed gracefully by admiring hotness of movie stars of all genders. We were just out of college, and out for a happy hour. It was seamless.

    5. Princesa Zelda*

      I regularly swan and sigh about both male and female celebrities when the conversation turns to them, and that seems to work well. No awkward speeches and no conversations about the past — just “Zac Efron! *clutches heart* My husband!” and “I think I might be in love with Ariana Grande” and the like. I’m an emotional exaggerator, so these wouldn’t necessarily be taken as being out, but I also have a short haircut and dress fairly masculinely, so the entire picture tends to come together for people. I also wear my ace ring and my wallpaper at work is the panel in Jughead where Kevin complains to Jughead that he “[doesn’t] get it because [he’s] asexual,” which is a fairly obvious sign to anyone who knows how to read it.

  47. Overeducated*

    My boss requested a meeting to discuss my midyear progress and professional development plan on Tuesday. I have no idea how to approach this, because since we put the standards and plan in place last fall, a) I was sent on a temporary assignment to another office for a few months and just returned last week, to b) a new boss, and c) a division of work in our office that understandably shifted. So much of what we envisioned last fall got thrown by the wayside, and I’m planning to go on maternity leave a few months from now on top of that. I’m at a loss for how to approach this discussion apart from “heyyyy being as flexible as I can, what’s next,” any thoughts?

    1. OtterB*

      For the temporary assignment and the revised division of work, I’d think of documenting your accomplishments, even though they weren’t in the original plan. Also, identify things from the original plan that should still be done on a revised schedule, or that are no longer relevant due to changes.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      We were all just reminded by HR to complete our mid-year reviews on our staff, with the implication that if they aren’t done in a timely manner there will be consequences. So this could be a combination getting to know you/box-checking exercise. I would go in with a short list of what you accomplished in the temporary assignment, what you hope to accomplish in the short time you have left before maternity leave, and a notional plan for how your work could be covered while you are gone.

    3. Boom! Tetris for Jeff!*

      I think it is best to approach it as a check in with the new boss and bringing them up to speed on your goals/PD plan. You could go in with a list like below:
      -Goal 1 was accomplished
      -Goals 2 and 3 became irrelevant due to the temporary assignment
      -Meanwhile, here are 2-3 things I achieved while on the temp assignment. These weren’t in the plan, but are great achievements anyways
      -Goal 4 still stands and is postponed
      -Goal 5 is upcoming (eg. still planning to attend a conference, achieve something before your mat leave)
      -Continue to make progress on Goals 6 and 7, while Goal 8 could not be accomplished because of the temp assignment
      -Btw, here is how I propose to deal with the work load while on mat leave (project transition plan)

      Hope the review is productive!

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Seconding the suggestions above. Also, adding:

      Since this is a new boss, would this be a good chance to talk with them about your longer-term professional development goals for your position? Any particular skills or areas you want to build up?

  48. Kiwiii*

    While I don’t really like my job that I’ve had for the last 9ish months, I really do like my manager and the other people I work with. The culture is that when we are ready to move on, I would talk about it with her and she would be supportive and even recommend positions or managers to me, likely. I had planned on doing the job hunt that way in the new year (2020) and only really passively looking until then. I had brushed up my resume anyway a few months ago because of a higher paying opening on the other team that shares our office, and since I hadn’t been here very long (and figured I wouldn’t be a Great candidate there anyway), I didn’t clue her in. I ended up not applying for that job, but since I’d brushed my resume up, I applied for a couple more places a little more removed from my team, and didn’t think anything more about it.

    Well I got a call for an interview. For a position that was apparently only doing one round of interviews. That I was apparently a better match for than I could have ever guessed from the posting. And now I have an offer from them, but haven’t clued my manager in at all that I was even looking. How do I broach the subject and let her know my last day needs to be in about 3 weeks? How do I frame it way that doesn’t look like I purposefully didn’t keep her looped in?

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Just tell her you’re leaving, when your last day is, and how you’ve enjoyed working with her and the team, but this is an opportunity you couldn’t pass up since it better aligns with your career goals. That’s it. You don’t need to manage her feelings about this – people leave jobs all the time. It’s business.

      1. Kiwiii*

        You’re totally right. I’ve only really previously left jobs where the managers were Bad or contract positions where I was meant to move on in a reasonable time frame — there’s some guilt associated bc it wasn’t the plan and she and the job are fine. But I can and should probably keep them to myself lol.

    2. Zephy*

      I like Alison’s “an opportunity fell in my lap that I couldn’t pass up” language. Resigning doesn’t have to be this big fraught conversation – a simple “I wanted to let you know that I’ve accepted a position elsewhere, and my last day will be [date].” If she bristles at that, you can make soothing noises about how you have enjoyed your time working with her and are glad to have had the opportunity. There’s no law that says she had to be part of your job search, nor is she entitled to more than the standard professional-courtesy 2 weeks’ notice of your departure.

    3. Kiwiii*

      Update: it went very well. I sent her a quick “can we meet in a conference room for 10 minutes” email and she guessed what it was. She complained good naturedly (I thought you weren’t looking!) but then told me she was really happy for me and knew I was really talented and capable and things. It was very nice.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        See? You were worried for nothing :)

        No, seriously, I get it – when I resigned almost three months ago (!) from my last position, I felt like I was going to vomit beforehand and I was thrilled to be leaving! And I didn’t even like my manager (didn’t hate her, just didn’t care for her blatant displays of favoritism in the workplace). But, like you experienced, it was over pretty quickly and it went fine – I’d worked myself up for nothing, lol.

  49. Kramerica Industries*

    I opened a taboo door at work and I’m not sure how to proceed. I’m from Canada and I was having a casual conversation about American politics with my boss. Then, she said that she would always vote conservative (or Republican) no matter what. In turn, I said that I was a liberal. She took this as an opportunity to have a respectful discussion with a liberal to get alternate points of views, which I was open to. During the conversation, she ended up asking me about my views on the border situation. After I shared my views that I didn’t support the anti-immigrant situation at all, she justified her view by saying that “not all groups are as hard working as Asians”.

    I’m a first-generation Asian-Canadian and I feel upset now that we had this conversation to reveal blatant racism. I don’t want to feel like a prop for someone to be able to say “I’m not racist because I hired a minority”, but I do. I tried to gently refute that claim, but a part of me also wishes that I shut it down harder. This happened a week ago, and I’m still feeling upset by this interaction. So, how do I proceed from here? My manager has not been problematic up until this point, but I’m unsettled about how underlying biases may affect the way she sees my coworkers, and in general, I’ve lost a huge amount of respect, though I remain professional at all times.

    2. WellRed*

      Did you say something to her in the moment? (I wouldn’t blame you if you were too shocked too).

    4. InternWrangler*

      I don’t know that I have any helpful advice, but I wanted to say how awful this is. You were put in an extremely awkward position, and of course you are still feeling unsettled. And of course, you’ve lost a lot of respect for her. I’m sorry you have been put in this position.

    5. Lurker*

      Wow…. this is so appalling. I totally agree that this is the sort of thing you should go to HR about.

    6. Kramerica Industries*

      My answer to that was to bring the conversation towards a little history lesson that no one cared how hard working Asians were around WWII or Vietnam when they were trying to flee violence. I was hoping to draw parallels without too harshly saying that her view was problematic because at the end of the day…this is my manager.

      I don’t think I’d go to HR. What would I say? We had a conversation that I actively participated in, and though my boss hasn’t displayed any overt unprofessionalism at work, I’m uncomfortable?

      1. another scientist*

        If I were to go to HR, I’d say “this sentiment has come up in conversation, I just wanted to make you aware of it as context, in case there are complaints about racial discrimination”.

    7. Justin*

      Ah, “you’re one of the good ones” discourse. It’s fun, eh? (Source: am a black guy who tends not to align with stereotypes of my demographic, not on purpose, just by chance).

      Mention to HR so they have an eye on it, maybe mention to colleagues you trust if there are any. Build support. Then watch for more “model minority” BS.

    8. anonagain*

      Can you look for another job? That’s the kind of thing that would make it impossible for me to continue working with someone.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah….my mom had this somewhat exact conversation with her sister awhile back but instead of immigration it was about “the gays”. My mom went to pride with me and had a blast, she’s always been on the side of “accept people, don’t be an ahole” and her sister did the whole “Oh I know some of The Gays they’re hard workers and nice but you know, I don’t “advocate” for that stuff though.”

      Y.U.C.K. This is standard bigotry rhetoric, they use it say “I’m not racist, I hired an Asian! But you know, she’s not like The Others.” So…yeah you’re a “pet” and it’s so gross. I would honestly just leave her as far in the dust as possible, since you don’t change those stripes unless you want to.

      You feel upset by it because your boss is a bad person, on the inside, deep down in her heart, she’s awful.

      This is also why you don’t open these boxes in a professional environment. Everyone is “entitled to their opinions, man!” but they really skew and change our views on that person in the long run. Which the relationship is now tainted and gross, it won’t bounce back, you won’t look at her the same way.

    10. Also Asian in America*

      You know, sad as it is, I think you might just have to keep up the polite fiction of “there’s no such thing as racial bias here” at work and stay away from this kind of conversation. You just have some useful information about your manager that you didn’t have until then.

      Why I’m saying this:

      I was on an interview “panel” with our COO recently. At one point, the white COO told the white applicant, whose Nigerian boyfriend was in the process of immigrating to the US, that they’d absolutely welcome the “hard-working” boyfriend “because not all of them are bad.” The COO obviously thought that it was a compliment.

      I was FLOORED. I wasn’t surprised, because I’d known for a long time that my American workplace, staffed by a majority foreign-born immigrants, myself included, is a nest of racists, starting from the very top–but to hear this idiocy said out loud… made me feel dirty, sad, I don’t know how to describe that feeling. But anyway.

      Would I say anything to the COO or anyone else, though? No. Because it won’t change anything at this office, and I’m not equipped or willing to do the work it would take to create any meaningful change here. It’s awful.

      Your workplace and manager might be different–but you’d have to make that judgment call.

    11. The New Wanderer*

      It doesn’t help now, but I think there should be a general rule that if the person you’re talking to says “I’m going to do X no matter what” the conversation should end at that point. It will only be downhill from there.

      Dream response would be “No, you’re racist because you think entire groups can be categorized as hard-working or not.”

      I don’t think you can do much about it now except for view everything she says and does through this new lens because you can’t un-know this and it’s probably better that you do know this about her. If it doesn’t have demonstrable effects on her professional attitude toward you or colleagues, great. If it does, now that you know what you’re seeing, that’s when you should take it up with HR.

      FWIW I had a colleague who told me, prior to the 2016 election, he was voting for (the other side’s) candidate. It was kind of out of nowhere and we did not have a dialogue about it since I really had nothing to say to that. And it had zero work impacts as far as I could see, but I always saw him differently after that. :-(

    12. voyager1*

      American politics is as bad as fandoms in major sports. People support their team no matter what . They conform their views to the team. Remember all the GOPers who supported the Iraq War now you can’t find them because the GOP team changed their views on it. Don’t try to have a reasonable conversation with your boss. You will not change her mind (she told you) and she is your boss (has power over you).

      I think you are right to want to leave though.

      1. Lilith*

        I heard this on the radio the other day and it fits here: “there’s really nothing like the self-righteousness of the partially informed.”
        Hope this helps.

  50. Kiki*

    Does anyone else have anxiety relating to asking for help? I fall into this pattern where I have a question, spend a lot of time researching that question and trying to figure out the answer myself, realize that it will seem weird to ask a question now that I should have asked earlier, get more anxious about asking the question so late, etc. Does anyone have any tips for overcoming this anxiety? (Besides seeing a therapist and CBT– I’m trying to arrange that, but want other strategies in the meantime)

    I feel like the feedback I get tends to perpetuate my current MO because bosses like that I am independent and am “low-maintenance.” And when I do ask questions, they tend to look annoyed or act really surprised that I don’t already know something.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Oh, this sounds familiar! (In other words, yes, this is an issue I’ve had.)

      Two things I’ve found to help me deal with asking people:
      1) Set a timebox for how long you will research the question yourself. Depending on the nature of the question, this could be anything from “one page of Google search results” to “one day”. For instance, you could decide “I will investigate this on my own for one hour, then ask Wilhelmina for help.”

      2) Come up with a specific question to ask. I find that if I can plan a specific question, such as “What are the standards for the llama finishing brushes?”, it’s much easier to ask for help (and get a useful answer), than if all I have is “I don’t know how to finish grooming the llamas!” I also find I’m much more likely to get a helpful answer, and to get it sooner if I can ask a very specific question.

    2. Anonymatic YoYo*

      Currently coaching someone through this (see posting below) – but these are strategies I used in the past when I found myself exhibiting similar behaviors. Really strip it down to the basics and limit the time spent. And, ultimately, usually the best answer is one you can get from other people :) As for the looks those people are giving you, just try and ignore them. Do they want the work done or not? But definitely, if you notice yourself starting to fall into the overanalysis spiral, pull the ripcord and ask for help early!

    3. Marion Q*

      I’m in the same boat. I don’t know if this is good advice, but what sometimes work for me is to frame it as “it’s okay to ask questions, it’s for the good of the company after all”. It takes the focus off me and put it on the company instead.

    4. Alphabet Pony*

      You know, I often think people look annoyed because I’m convinced they must be or I feel bad. And usually they kind of don’t. If they are? Well tough!

  51. Augusta Sugarbean*

    Any pharmacy techs around? I’ve been in allied health for a long time and needing a change. I have some flexibility in salary requirements so I can work with entry level wages. And working in a hospital or LTC care facility where I could have less patient contact is sounding appealing these days. I’ve been looking into the community college certificate programs around here. One school has a year long program and one has a two term program, part online and part in-class. I read several discussions of the job elsewhere and several people said that the programs weren’t worth the money and to either try to get hired at a retail pharmacy and get on the job training then take the exam or get study guide and take the exam and then get hired. As far as I can tell, it doesn’t look like my state requires coursework. So if you were starting out right now to be a pharmacy tech, would you take classes or study on your own or try for on the job training? Thanks!

    1. Pharmgirl*

      Pharmacist here – I would recommend the on the job training / studying in your own. I have worked with a lot of fantastic techs and none of them took the classes. I don’t think it’s necessary. It might be harder to find a non-retail position that doesn’t require National certifications but they do exist. Retail has a lot more patient contact but you will learn a lot more about pharmacy. Hope this helps!

  52. AnnieJ456789*

    Is this weird???
    Literally just happened. My group has a summer intern. I’m not the boss and she doesn’t work on my project so my only interactions with her are passing hellos and pleasantries.
    We work in a space-related industry so she and the other interns coordinated to dress like from the 60’s for the moon landing anniversary. She changed in the bathroom and then paraded around the office (like literally went to every cubicle and office) in a dress and heels?? We work in manufacturing so typically we do jeans/safety shoes/tshirts for safety reasons (although we try to keep a professional environment). I imagine our boss will let her know if she needs to change for safety reasons but I thought this was totally bizarre. Maybe just young and not knowing professional norms?? Should I say something to her or her mentor?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        As a group activity I think it sounds pretty cool (we are in the throes of the 50th anniversary here). If it were all the interns gathered in one place to have like 60s lunch together or something, that seems like a clever idea, especially if they also had videos of the event or someone talking about the history to make it really meaningful.

        One intern in 60s-ish gear parading around solo? It’s a bit off. I can’t even really picture how she was doing this, like was she posing for 10 seconds in every office and cubicle entrance? It demands attention in a way that just walking around in a themed 60s outfit for an hour doesn’t. I don’t think it warrants a conversation though, especially if she changed back when she needed to, but I’m guessing she’s going to cringe at herself in a few years.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Except for the “safety shoes” part?

        But if the clothing otherwise met professional standards despite being outdated, it doesn’t seem like a big deal.

    2. Also a project manager*

      The dressing up sounds fun. The parading around the office and visiting everyone is…weird. Is she expecting commentary from people about her outfit? Is she showing off?

      Definitely say something. Not sure if it should be to her or her mentor, but if you decide to talk to her directly, frame it along the lines of “it’s fun to celebrate anniversaries and occasions like this but not everyone may be interested or have the time so be mindful of that.”

      (My work did something for the 40th anniversary. I’m bummed we’re not doing anything for the 50th anniversary this year…guess it’s because it’s on Saturday.)

    3. WellRed*

      Are you more concerned with the clothing or her need for attention? And, is the outfit in theme with the 60s? I’d leave it alone.

    4. CheeryO*

      I guess I’m confused; it sounds like she wasn’t out on the floor, so does it really matter if she wasn’t wearing safety shoes? A dress and heels seems pretty appropriate for a woman in the 60s. I wouldn’t say anything (and that goes double if you’re male, if I’m being honest). If there’s a real safety issue, then the appropriate person (EH&S?) should address it with her, and maybe send all of the interns an email reminding them of the expectations around safety gear.

      1. CheeryO*

        (I’m assuming you’re female based on your username, so feel free to ignore that bit. Something about your phrasing kind of raised my hackles, though, so I would definitely be careful in how you approach this if you do decide to say something.)

        1. AnnieJ456789*

          Yes, I guess it was just so far off the office norms here and it was more about her showing her “costume” to everyone than what she wearing. For the record, it was a cute and maybe appropriate for some offices, she looked great. She had to take it off to do work later. Just seemed like she wanted attention for it?

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            And if she did, that’s a problem you thought might warrant a conversation? I’m confused about what the issue is here.

            1. Joielle*

              I mean, I personally would find that incredibly irritating, but that’s my sometimes-curmudgeonly personality. I get why Annie is weirded out by it. But yeah, I don’t know what that conversation would look like or what the result would be.

            2. AnnieJ456789*

              Yeah, my only thought about saying something was if I was an intern would it benefit me of someone told me I was doing something weird? Not reprimanding. Just “hey, cool costume, we dont usually have costume days and ask people what they think. although maybe in other offices it’s more of a thing!”

              1. Fortitude Jones*

                Ah, I see. Yeah, since it’s a (hopefully) one time thing, I’d try to let it go. If she comes dressed up again though, you could try to bring it up casually and let her know that your company doesn’t really do that so she’s kind of out of step for the office norms.

          2. Dust Bunny*

            Okay, yeah, if she couldn’t do her job in it, that’s a bit weird. I mean, I could do my job in midcentury everyday clothes, so I could do this and not have to change.

    5. Joielle*

      It all sounds a bit silly to me, but if the interns were doing a costume thing as a group, I’d probably just let it go. They’re young and having harmless semi-work-related fun. I do think it’s weird that the one intern went around to show everyone her outfit… what did she say when she came up to the cubicles? Was it a particularly interesting dress (like with a space-related pattern or something)? Or did she just want everyone to look at her all dressed up? I think I’d find a person with that kind of personality super irritating, but probably not enough to say anything to her. If anything, you could maybe casually mention it to the mentor, like “Ophelia got really into that costume thing, huh?”

    6. Moray*

      Ew. There’s pretty much never a good time to demand that all of your coworkers stop working to observe and compliment your appearance.

    7. AnnieJ456789*

      I didn’t say anything to anyone. She wasn’t really bothering anyone or interfering with work. It was just one of those “that’s weird” things. I think she’ll learn how to understand office norms when shes had some experience. I prob did weird things when I was an intern years ago. Lol.

    8. Historical Context*

      “It was the dawn of the space age, and women were called girls and they wore these outfits called…dresses…”
      “Did they wear them to work, Gramma?”
      “Well, no, women couldn’t get jobs in most fields in those days, so mostly they wore the dresses other places. But some girls were allowed to do some kinds of work, and they wore dresses because we weren’t allowed to wear pants back then.”
      “No pants? No jobs? How did you stand it, Gramma?”
      …. the saga continues…

      I think I might have enjoyed the parading if it was accompanied by a historical pageant on the progress of women in the workplace, specifically the space industry. And, if her “costume” was historically accurate, I’d give her a pair of leggings or pants to cover up, since any 1969 “dress” would be too short to be appropriate office wear in 2019, except as a tunic. (Unless she closely resembled Nichelle Nichols… Lt. Uhura could pull it off in any century.)

      1. valentine*

        any 1969 “dress” would be too short
        No. I’m thinking she dressed like a computer.

  53. Agent J*

    Not sure if this belongs in the work or personal thread, but here it goes.

    Last week, I saw a former coworker at my therapist’s office. He sees another therapist in that office and I guess we had appointments at the same time. I’ve been seeing my therapist for awhile and never saw him before so not sure how often he goes. I haven’t seen this coworker in awhile but we have mutual coworker-friends that I keep in touch with, so I know some of his general life updates (new job, new baby, etc.).

    I tried to be friendly to keep the vibe less awkward but not sure if I should have. I gave my congratulations on his new baby, made small talk for another minute, and then went to my appointment. It was a hard to tell if he was open to the interaction but it felt rude not to acknowledge him since the waiting area is so small (so we definitely couldn’t pretend we didn’t see each other).

    We don’t actively keep in touch but we are friendly when we see each other (outside of the therapists’ office usually). So what should I do if I see him again? (I definitely will NOT be mentioning this to our mutual coworker-friends to keep confidentiality.)

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      One way, I have dealt with this is to let him take the lead. So, if he approaches you than you can acknowledge him, but leave it in his hands to decide how to deal. Another option I’ve done is to say that I know someone through a mutual friend, rather than explain I met them through group therapy- though it doesn’t sound like this was a group therapy situation.

    2. Lena Clare*

      You smile, nod, greet him normally as you would anyone, and you do not mention you saw him at the therapy office at all.

    3. Bree*

      You didn’t do anything wrong! As you said, pretending like you didn’t see him would be weird, and there’s nothing wrong with seeing a therapist so it makes sense to just make some normal small talk like you would anywhere else.

      People have different levels of comfort, though, so if you see him there again, maybe just smile and say hello and then go back to your phone or magazine or whatever. Then the ball is in his court this time in terms of whether he wants to initiate more conversation.

    4. Aunt Vixen*

      I believe waiting rooms at therapists’ offices are in a lot of ways like restrooms, that is, subject to the polite fiction that you’re always in there alone. Legally, you never saw your co-worker at the therapist’s. No problem.

      1. Alphabet Pony*

        Yeah. Honestly, I wouldn’t like it if someone tried to talk to me in the waiting room. Next time just politely smile and nod.

      1. Agent J*

        Actually, it does! I was so worried that I made him feel uncomfortable that I hadn’t considered he might be feeling the same way.

    6. Delphine*

      You don’t have to do anything special when you see him again. Treat it like you would treat seeing a coworker at the doctor’s or at the bank or at the grocery store–seeing a therapist is a perfectly normal, routine thing.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Yes, if you saw him at the dentist it would neither be embarrassing nor something worth mentioning to coworkers.

        If you see him again, acknowledge nonverbally but let him be the one to talk if he wants to.

    7. Dr. Anonymous*

      Tell your therapist you know him so they can try to coordinate to keep your appointments separate.

  54. Do I really want to do this?*

    Looking for advice from someone who has transitioned from a technical role to a business strategy role.

    I could use tips or advice for transitioning from a mostly technical, independent role to one that requires much more stakeholder management and getting people to agree as compared to recommending the best technical solution.

    So far the advice that I have gotten from my manager about how to learn the role is “talk to people”. Which is not what my introvert brain wants to hear. Its not that I have difficulty talking to people, but its not my first choice, especially when it comes to learning new skills. I am also having difficulty translating how “talk to people” means learning new skills.

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Im in a business strategy role – and I tend to be an introvert too. However, over the years I have learned that I need to get out and get talking to people (usually after a day or two to learn the ropes of a new subject area) and its important every step of the way in my job. I need to talk to people to pick their brains to find out just what the hell they want out of a project, then manage their expectations, then manage my resourcing to achieve those expectations, then present findings and socialize the results. Sometimes you have good stakeholders, sometimes you have dumb ones, sometimes you have smart ones, and sometimes you get the real assholes. But you have to juggle them as part of the role, in addition to providing insight and, essentially, being their extra brain. Your recommendations at the end should never be a surprise to any stakeholder, and you will usually have to do some horse-trading to find solutions to their limitations.

      I would say I probably spend, at this point in my career, 70/30 talking to researching. There are days when I get really tired of talking to people, so I try to balance out my days with some talking and some other work.

      I think what your manager means is to find some business strategists and talk to them to find out – how they got their role, their average day, and skills they needed to learn (how they did that) and what advice they may have for you to transition to that sort of role.

      2. Should I apply?*

        Thanks for the feedback! I will say my manager is more of directing me to talk to the stakeholders themselves as opposed to talking to another person who does the job that I want to do. Mostly because this would be a new role at my organization and therefore its not easy find someone and pick their brain on how they do what they do.

        I think that is part of what is me making reluctant to reach out to people. This is a development activity for myself & trying to create a new role in the business. So doing this work isn’t really expected from my current role, and when I have tried in the past I have gotten a lot of “why are you doing this?”

    2. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

      Talking to people is a huge component of stakeholder management, though! You need to be able to establish relationships and trust, be persuasive, ask probing questions, reassure people, smooth things over…lots of people skills that you can’t easily learn from a book.

      Your manager probably means “set up informational interviews with people who already do what you hope to do”, though. This is (presumably) not your manager’s specialty and they’re suggesting that you get advice from the people who do specialize in it.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      You will quickly suss out everyone’s likely position on things. One may have a legalistic approach, another more freewheeling, someone will support any new project, another will be the constant nay-sayer. When trying to build consensus I have found it effective to go to the person most likely to oppose what I want to do. That tells my what most of my challenges are right off the bat. And if I can find a way to bring that person on board the others are likely to agree.

  55. Anonnytech*

    Has anyone ever been given feedback that you did not handle your return to work after an emergency good enough? How did you bounce back?

    I had emergency surgery a few days after we launched a new system that I was tech lead for. I worked in the ER up until my surgery date, but with the circumstances there were certain things I could not do.

    After my surgery I was out a week, then returned to work before being medically released because I knew how vital I was. As soon as I returned people threw a lot of attitude my way, and blame, but I focused on the work and found and fixed a lot of tech and process errors.

    Now I am being told I was not grateful enough to the leadership for their hard work, but honestly I feel like they never gave me a chance to be grateful and frankly I feel like I’m being treated as if I took a vacation to Hawaii when, you know, I had emergency surgery!

    Anyway I am very sensitive about this, and since it’s months later that I am hearing I didn’t do well enough and need to repair these relationships I have no idea how to go about that honestly.

    1. Colette*

      So you had emergency surgery, worked in the ER, and returned to work before your doctor wanted you to, and are now being told you are not grateful enough?

      Is there a reason you aren’t looking for a new job?

      1. Natalie*

        And you’ve been hearing about it for months? Yeah, see, your problem here is that you work with assholes.

          1. valentine*

            They are way out of line. At first, I thought the ER was your actual workplace. Wow!

            In future, follow the discharge orders so that, if anything goes wrong, you’ll know that’s not why. (And also because taking good care of yourself is an absolute human right.)

    2. Catsaber*

      Wow. I’m not sure you can repair those relationships. That’s a whole new level of petty. Anyone who blames a person for having EMERGENCY SURGERY is not someone who really cares about others.

      I’m sorry to say it but I think finding a new job is your best bet, if you can. If not, I would just try to be very professional and polite. Sadly I don’t think there’s really anything to be done, especially if their complaint is that you weren’t “grateful” enough.

    3. Amber Rose*

      New job time. These people are scum.

      Honestly, you should have been pushing back on those comments from day one. “How odd that you would say that when I pushed myself while recovering from a serious health issue.”
      Or, since they started this outrageous rudeness, “I don’t feel the need to apologize for a health issue that was out of my control, and it’s strange that you would expect me to do that.”

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I would start responding to every comment with something like “oh, are you referring to the time I had a medical emergency, had emergency surgery and returned to work before the doctors approved?” Takes a lot of something to not back down in the face of that.

    5. L.S. Cooper*

      You were working in the ER??? Before an emergency surgery???? Holy smokes, the people you work with are terrible. No advice other than to get out ASAP.

    6. Fortitude Jones*

      If you hadn’t said you were in tech, I would swear you were the Sally that someone wrote in about a while back when she wanted advice on how to manage two people (Sally and Karen) who didn’t like each other because Karen was an office bully and was getting the other nurses at the hospital where they worked to turn on her. I don’t remember if that was a letter or in an open thread, but you should try to find that thread for helpful feedback. Sally (who also had to leave work for emergency surgery) came back to a mess, fixed it, and was also being told she wasn’t appreciative enough of her coworkers who effed up the launch – the majority of the comments were very sympathetic to Sally and told the letter writer that if she didn’t nip this crap happening with Karen in the bud, Sally would leave (and rightfully so).

        1. Anonnytech*

          I’d rather not speculate if it was. I have referred all my bosses to this site. Thanks!

    7. Aquawoman*

      I need emergency surgery to glue my head back together.

      Maybe you could tell them that you were very grateful for the work they did and it must just be that it didn’t come across as well because of all the pain and exhaustion.

    8. Anonnytech*

      Thanks everyone! I was worried I was too emotionally invested to see this clearly and that my feelings of being underappreciated and held to a … unattainable standard of managing others emotions? Yeah I guess I will phrase it that way, was just that I was not getting it on some emotional plane.

      1. Sparkelle*

        In the workplace, presents flow down, and so does appreciation. It is extremely poor leadership for “leaders” who make way more money than you do expect you to fall all over yourself thanking them for doing their jobs.

    9. CatCat*

      Wow, you deserve better. You’re being treated horribly. These people should be the ones working to repair relationships. Unbelievable. I hope you’re job searching.

    10. Anonymouse for this*

      The only ones needing to repair relationships are the muppets you work with. You had emergency surgery, you went back to work AGAINST medical advice and they’re giving you grief for that? They sound awful. I’m sorry they’re behaving that way and honestly I’d say it may be time to start looking for another job. Personally I would find it really hard to get past my anger if my coworkers behaved that way towards me.

    12. Librarian of SHIELD*

      You were in a really frightening and painful situation, and you were even willing to jeopardize your recovery by coming back to work early, and the leadership in your department still thinks you’re not dedicated or grateful enough to THEM? Oh, no. All the noes in all the languages that there are. Your coworkers and your supervisors have hella unreasonable expectations.

      I am 100% on Team “Anonnytech should have a job where they work with people who treat them kindly and respectfully.”

  56. Help prevent me embarrassing myself please*

    I have a ridiculous crush on a colleague. It’s possible they have a reciprocal crush on me. I work quite closely with them. I am well aware of what a ridiculously stupid idea hooking up with them would be and yet I’m still thinking about it. (Planning not to do anything about it.)

    We’re both single fwiw but they are highly not suitable for me in many ways.

    Any ways to switch this off?!

    I did realise before that basically this is because they a) seem to enjoy my company and b) do stuff to help me out in work. Not things that were true of my ex spouse. Wow, my standards are low these days :(

    1. Kiwiii*

      Whenever I have an unproductive crush, I try and focus on things they do that annoy me or even are just particularly thoughtless. It feels unfair sometimes to be focusing on negative things about them, but it’s really only to get them back to a baseline of where they’d be without the crush.

    2. LessNosy*

      Can you make a point to correct any crushy thoughts you start having about this person? “Wow, Work Crush is so sweet and wonderful for helping me!” vs “WC is a great coworker who wants their colleagues to succeed!” It would take a while, but you can definitely train your brain to see this person in a professional light only.

    3. Help prevent me embarrassing myself please*

      Can try both of those things, thank you! Oh for an actual switch in my head to turn off the feels :(

    5. Jerk Store*

      This happened once and he was my boss. It helped to dwell on the fact that he wore way, way much too cologne at work.

    6. Joielle*

      You could try imagining what it would be like if you hooked up with them and the sex was terrible or something horribly embarrassing happened, and then you had to come back and work with them. Because honestly, that’s a realistic potential outcome, and I personally would do almost anything to avoid that scenario :)

      1. Help prevent me embarrassing myself please*

        You can tell I’m hard up at the minute: this idea does not put me off as much as it should *horrified face*

    7. ContemporaryIssued*

      I think we often get crushes on whoever is closest because we just want that intimacy so badly, and even professional closeness can breed that desire.

      So I think one cure to your problem may just be recognizing that the crush is a result of you wanting something romantic with somebody, and him being a nice surrogate for that desire for intimacy. Maybe moreso because he’s not available due to wanting to keep it professional?

      Now that you’ve identified the problem, it’s time to get proactive about it – with other people. Start dating. Start attending more events that put you in front of new people, new potentially attractive strangers, or friends-of-friends or whoever. Update your dating profiles. When you actually find somebody who is attractive, available, who you have chemistry with, this guy will fade from your mind in a snap.

      1. Help prevent me embarrassing myself please*

        Oh believe me I’m being very proactive about the dating thing. No one is interested. It’s at least 2.5 years since I had sex and probably the same kind of time since I last had a snog. Frustrating because I could have gone out and done the drunken hookup thing while still messed up but wanted to get my head together and heal first.

        Ah well, it’s pride tomorrow, never know who you come across…..

    8. The New Wanderer*

      I’d say keep the focus on the reasons you mentioned for why this crush is happening – you’ve been starved for attention and that’s driving it, not the colleague’s innate perfect-for-you-ness. I get it (oh, I get it). It’s not a perfect solution, but it has helped me identify the things I specifically like about the interaction, like talking shop and hashing out ideas with someone like-minded, and de-romanticize the rest.

    9. Ramanon*

      If we’re doing “imagine bizarre and horrible things” advice, then boy do I have the link for you! From the daily dot: reddit-mouse-figurine-family

  57. Will Review Books for Food*

    OK, I know there are some academics here so I hope that perhaps I can get some thoughts on the situation I find myself in.

    I’m entering my final year of my Humanities PhD in the US, about to start my first year on the competitive-to-impossible job market. I love my dissertation and the one saving grace for me has been that it really feels like a book, and that at least I’ll get a scholarly monograph out of this.
    Then, on Wednesday, one of my committee members sent me a link to an instagram post of a very established scholar in my field. The picture was of proofs of the table of contents of her forthcoming book– and her fourth chapter is very very very close to the argument of my dissertation.

    so, I’ve got a lot of feelings. yay, other smart people are seeing what I see I must be on to something! yikes, I’ve been scooped by a more established scholar! but mostly I’m rolling with it. so, here’s my question:

    should I reach out to this established scholar? if I do, what should I say? part of me wants to ask if I could get an ARC and review the book, killing two birds with one stone so to speak, but is it outrageously presumptuous to ask an established scholar with a second book coming out on an Ivy League press whether I, a lowly grad student, can review her book?

    Additional context: her instagram is private but she accepted my follow request. she has a personal website with her email address on the homepage and a tab about the forthcoming book.

    TIA!

    1. fposte*

      Yeah, that happens; it’s nerve-racking. Is there a time component that’s making you aim for getting an ARC rather than waiting until publication? Is there a venue for which you’d be reviewing the title?

      I don’t think it’s a big deal to say “Hey, this is my area, would you be willing to add me to the publisher’s list for review copies?” All kinds of people get review copies. But a lot of the time in academic publishing that’s a final copy, since reviews run slooow (or the other way around), and the publisher may need an established venue for the review.

      Alternatively, you can see if she’s written any articles or done any conference presentations on the chapter material and take the temperature of her coverage that way.

      1. Will Review Books for Food*

        Mostly I want an ARC because it’s really, really hard for me to shell out $70 for a monograph and waiting for our library to get it will take even longer, so it’s more about money than time. I definitely know what venues would be appropriate for a review but I don’t necessarily have a firm lead on one that would definitely publish me.

        it’s maddening, but she doesn’t seem to have published or presented on this particular aspect of the book AT ALL which I think is part of why I’m feeling so blindsided. We’re in a pretty niche subfield within my field, so sometimes it feels like everyone knows what everyone else is working on, but not necessarily!

        1. fposte*

          Okay, so basically you want a freebie :-). That doesn’t have to mean an ARC, though. While trade publishers throw around ARCs willy-nilly, IME with academic publishers a final copy is much likelier.

          I think it’s fine to contact her and ask, and be prepared for a range of answers. I’d go with, roughly, “Hey, I’m working in this topic and I saw you’re covering it in your forthcoming book; I would love to see that. Would it be possible to add me to the list for a review copy when they’re available?” She might say “Here’s a PDF of the page proofs! Let’s talk more!” or she might say “Direct review copy requests to Bob at UP Publishers R Us” or anything in between.

          Has your advisor weighed in on this at all? Do they know each other at all? That can be a useful intro point if so.

          1. Will Review Books for Food*

            my advisor is… well, a full professor who does not really have much of a boots on the ground approach anymore. he would get so distracted by the fact that a SCHOLAR would DEIGN to have an INSTAGRAM that I think we’d lose the plot pretty quickly. lol!

            the committee member who let me know about it said that if it were her, she would silently stalk the work from afar but that she doesn’t think reaching out would necessarily be bad. they’re social media mutuals but don’t know each other IRL. Interestingly, my research lines up with this scholar more so than it does with anyone on my committee!!

            (also you probably guessed this but I’ve written book reviews and done other work with books coming out of Big 5s, and man are they loose with the ARCS!! I’ve been spoiled by just asking for them and getting them whenever I want so that’s definitely where that notion came from, haha).

    2. CM*

      Just reach out! To you she may seem way out of reach, but there’s a very good chance she would be excited that there’s another scholar who cares just as much about this niche area. Explain your work and the fact that her fourth chapter is so similar to your dissertation, offer to send a copy of your dissertation if she’s interested, tell her you’d love to get an ARC or talk about your work together.

      1. Will Review Books for Food*

        I really hope so… I want to believe if I got the TT job and became a big deal in the field I’d be super stoked to hear from grad students interested in my work!!

    3. BethDH*

      In my experience (as a humanities post-doc), the author doesn’t get direct access to many review copies. When I worked on a journal a reviewer would approach us to offer to write the review and we would ask the publisher for a copy to be sent to that person (without guaranteeing that the end result would be published). The bigger the scholar, though, the more likely it is that they will already have solicited a review from someone in the field. Always worth a try though, especially if you’ve published with a particular journal already.
      On the bigger issue, I had the same experience but it turned out that the one chapter of said person’s book was actually good setup for mine. I didn’t have a diss that fit neatly as a monograph (boy, that was good thinking on your part, but definitely doesn’t work for my institutional requirements :( ) but it still was more a help than a hindrance.
      Can you try to get some articles out soon that take on bits? That shouldn’t hurt your chances of publication as long as they’re not major sections. Even if you have to adapt them a little later to take into account the new content by this scholar, you can do that during the revisions if they’re small, and I’ve seen plenty of articles where they just threw in a footnote to the effect of “so-and-so’s book on topic x was published after this article was developed, but it suggests interesting ramifications for y aspect of this work.” People in the humanities totally get how this happens!

      1. Alucius*

        Doubt you’re still checking this two days later, but asking a journal if you can review the book is the best way to get your hands on a free copy. I don’t know about your field, but mine has at least two journals that have always let me review pretty much anything I asked for, dating back to the last year or two of my student days.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      One of my friends was working on a master’s thesis and ran across an article from a researcher in her field that changed the way she looked at her thesis. She wrote to the author very diffidently to ask a question and got a very enthusiastic response. Who knows? If her chapter is a little sub-niche in your field, she may be delighted that you are so interested in it. Reach out!

  58. Ali G*

    You guys! I did it! I just successfully negotiated an extra week of vacation with my boss!! I’m so excited and proud of myself!

    Back story – I accepted a job offer last year that came with 3 weeks vacation. At the time we were allowed to borrow against the leave (so you didn’t have to wait for it accrue if you wanted to take off more time that you had accrued). But late last year we changed the policy and you can no longer do that. I told my boss that at this point in my career (16+ years and I am an Exec who reports to the CEO) I need more freedom in my use of my time off and it would be easier for me take advantage of my benefits if I could have an extra week (meaning it accrues faster). He not only agreed and is going to move me into the next bucket (4 weeks vacation), he also said that I don’t have to use my PTO for single days (like the day after the 4th of July, which I took off this year) because I am salaried and he is sure I work more than my allotted time each week (which is true).
    I love this job and I am never leaving!!!

    2. CM*

      Yay! Congratulations — and not having to use PTO for single days is amazing, I would LOVE that.

  59. TSG*

    How many other AAM readers are Bostonians having their work punctuality significantly harmed because of all the problems on the T this summer?

    1. HailRobonia*

      I live on the South Shore and take the Red Line to work, it used to take me 45 minutes tops but now it’s more like an hour and a half. To make matters worse, some days I have to get to work by 6:30 in the morning so I have to wake up at 4:oo am (because of the schedule of the bus that takes me to the T station… I tried taking a Lyft but they keep cancelling because I am somewhat in the boonies)

      1. TSG*

        Yeah I’m in Eastie so when the blue line shut down earlier this week I was trapped. The shuttles rarely came, the crowds were insane, and uber/lyft way jacked up the prices. I was able to get a ride but then we sat in tunnel traffic for 30 minutes.

        My cube mate lives on the red line and said that the worst part is some days since the derailment it’s like it’s back to normal then out of nowhere it’s 20+ minutes between trains again.

    2. Aquawoman*

      I’ve had similar experiences but proactive employers, who let us work from home more, that sort of thing. (I worked from home for 2-3 weeks during the Atlanta Olympics, before teleworking was even really a concept). I know that doesn’t work for all jobs, but could it help?

    3. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Large swaths of my office are, but so far (should I even type this?) the orange line has been ok. Luckily everyone here is aware of the issues so no one is “in trouble” or anything. Good luck out there!

  60. HailRobonia*

    The other day in my office bathroom I heard the sound of rustling paper in the stall next to me. I looked over and saw that the guy had spread out four or five resumes on the floor and was presumably reviewing them.

    Now, I’m no Alison Green but I am fairly certain that is not considered “best practices” by hiring managers.

    Of course, I immediately thought of all sorts of jokes… “hiring for a crappy job” “not our top candidate, but he’s number two…”

    1. Catsaber*

      *shuddering* Floors are gross enough as is…but the bathroom floor????? He didn’t even put them on the sink?

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick. Ickickick. Ick.

  61. Injured*

    Does anyone have any recs for adaptable business-appropriate clothes when you have a shoulder injury? I injured mine and am currently waiting for surgery. It’ll need to be something I can wear postop too. I’m a woman and I work in a business casual environment. I can’t get anything overhead and I don’t wear button downs (I have an aversion to any collared shirt after spending my whole childhood in Catholic school). Many thanks!

    3. OtterB*

      Do some searching online. My husband had a shoulder injury a couple of years ago and we got several adapted shirts – I no longer remember from where. Most of the adapting involved taking out the side/underarm seam and replacing them with velcro, which worked pretty well.

    5. BeenThereDoneThat*

      Tons of wrap blouses are available this season. Old Navy even has a bunch on clearance right now. But do look for a true wrap, generally with an inside tie. And if you wear a lace-front, hook-front bra, you don’t have to worry about the sometimes too deep v or getting a cami over your head. . .bras/underpinnings can be a real struggle with limited shoulder mobility

    6. WellRed*

      There are cute tops that button in the front and don’t have collars. Shoulder problems suck!

    7. CheeryO*

      Ooh, been there, but with frozen shoulder. I would get a couple wrap cardigans or a nice fleece/sweater jacket, assuming your office isn’t too warm. That opens you up to more casual tops, since they’ll be mostly covered, so you can do all sorts of wrap tops, stretchy knit tops, and maybe sleeveless button-front tops if you can find some that don’t remind you of Catholic school!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        With my frozen shoulder, I went big into Polo shirts and sleeveless knit poly tops. Anything I couldn’t destroy by putting the bad arm in before my head & flexible arm– that meant a lot of stretch–and left them untucked. I added cardigans to bring the level back up a notch. I also got a couple of shirts with snaps for days where I needed to be a little more formal.

    8. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      My husband broke his collarbone some years back, and the only shirts he could wear were short-sleeve button ups. He couldn’t use his hand to undo buttons or tie shoes, so he was going to work in short-sleeve button ups, gym shorts or track pants, and Birkenstocks. He looked pretty ridiculous for awhile.

      1. Injured*

        I’m having a similar issue! Fortunately I have black yoga pants that I can get away with wearing at work, and flats don’t need to be tied. Shirts have been the hard part, these are some great suggestions tho!

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        For anyone in a similar situation, I’ll suggest Merrell urban moccasins, classic loafers, and boat shoes. That won’t help with the pants though. :(

    9. Librarian of SHIELD*

      What about stretchy tank tops and cardigans? If you start by putting the tank top over your injured arm, you may be able to get it on the rest of the way.

    10. alphabet soup*

      When I broke my collarbone, I wore a lot of dresses and stretchy tops. Instead of putting them on over my head, I stepped into them, which let me carefully wriggle the arm on my injured side in. And big, drapey shawls when I got cold.

  62. A Little Privacy Please*

    I’m so tired of a couple of women who use the the ladies room as their personal phone booth. Nothing like trying to do your duty knowing you have an audience on someone’s phone. I’m not talking about the occasional ducking in there because it’s a quick call and it’s the only place. I’m talking looong conversations multiple times a day. I always make sure I flush twice.

    1. HailRobonia*

      Men are just as bad… if not worse. Read my post above about the guy reviewing resumes on the toilet!

    2. temporary me*

      Not just flush twice. Extra noisy. Better, strike up a conversation with a coworker at the sink, or… hum the frozen theme song (did you know if you sing happy birthday that’s the length of time you are suppose to be washing your hands? Useful factoid… and not a bad time to practice that.)

  63. Advice Please*

    How does one go about speaking to a direct report, who’s a new-ish manager, in regards to their behavior?

    I’m in a new company and have been here about seven months. During that time, I’ve noticed some things about this person: takes things very personally, reads deep into things that aren’t there, very emotional, seems to be a pot-stirrer, immediately jumps to conclusions without asking clarifying questions, things like that. I was definitely told about the emotional part before I came on board; however, I wasn’t fully prepared for what I actually got.

    Bottom line is that this person is eroding their credibility and I feel this person should have never been made a manager; the reactions I’m seeing within them are usually out of proportion to the situation; they have a reputation for being emotional and easily offended; and I find myself not wanting to tell them things or assign things directly to other team members because they feel it’s “my job, not theirs.” Whereas I’m firmly in the “it’s everyone’s job; others need to learn and grow, too; and cross training is a good thing.” I don’t mean that I’m assigning large projects to others, just small, one-off tasks. I’m also hearing from various people that this person is gossiping to them, which is not a good thing in a manager.

    I’ve never had to deal with someone like this before and I don’t know how to go about talking to them about it. I mean, I know what I’d like to say, but it may need a little softening language and that definitely isn’t my strong suit. I tend to speak very matter-of-factly. My boss has giving me his blessing that if this person decides they want to work elsewhere, he’s on board with me letting them leave. (Prior to my arrival, much was done for this person. Way more than for other employees, and this person doesn’t see it.)

    1. Auntie Social*

      The “my job/their job” attitude usually means someone is pretty unhappy. So are the inappropriate responses to situations and the gossiping. Start with that. I don’t know how you learn what people can or can’t do, or maybe really have a gift for, without assigning them tasks, so I’d tell him that’s going to continue, and why. And pot-stirring has no place in management!!

      1. Advice Please*

        Yeah, there’s a number of issues with this person, a couple which I knew about coming in and the others are popping up as we go along. Some I know stem from who they are in general and I don’t see those improving, such as taking things very personally. Sure, it can improve, definitely, but that’s something that takes a long time in my experience.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      It might be time to encourage this person to find another job. The things you’re describing sound like personality issues instead of work skills deficits. I don’t know how you train a person out of their personality. Consider putting them on a PIP. Writing down what changes you need to see might clarify your thoughts on this situation and whether it’s salvageable. Ask your boss first if he’ll support a PIP and keep him informed. If you have an HR, use them, too.
      Good luck

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      Don’t soften. You’re not doing them any favors. Be direct about the behavior you’d like replaced and let them feel however they want about it privately.

  64. I don't post often*

    Are online MBAs a bad idea? Here is why I ask: I graduated from a well respected (in our state) small state university. Its business program is well respected in our region. (Not nationally recognized, but within the state.) I received a notice that the school is expanding its online courses and is now offering course-work online for an MBA. I meet the requirements for admission and the price tag is within range for me. Unwillingness to take on debt has precluded me from obtaining a graduate degree thus far. I guess what I’m wondering is, would an MBA obtained online from a respected university “count” when employers are looking at my resume? Trying to think through the pros and cons.

    1. Catsaber*

      I think an online degree from an established not-for-profit university is just as good as a brick-and-morter degree. Pretty much all colleges have online degrees now; it’s just expected. The only time I get suspicious about a degree is if it’s from Phoenix University or some other notorious for-profit school. But it sounds like you’re aiming for an MBA from the same school as your undergrad, and I see nothing wrong with getting the online version – they are required to have the same material and rigor as regular courses.

      Source: spent most of my career in higher ed distance education as a course developer/support tech, I still work in higher ed as a database developer

    2. Enough*

      Online programs from well established colleges are becoming more and more prevalent. They fulfill a demand – I need more education to advance but I can’t quit my job to go back to school. And offer more flexibility and some cost savings to the school – you don’t need to find a classroom or worry about parking. My daughter is in a program where she’s full time on campus that also has an online version. Her program actually has about a quarter of the courses online.

    3. new kid*

      A degree from a university is a degree from that university. What would differentiate it to an employer as being an ‘online’ program? They’ll just see you got a degree from that institution.

      What am I missing?

    4. I don't post often*

      Thank you for these replies! I wanted to make sure others agreed with my thoughts on this. :) I’m seriously considering it as I have hit a ceiling at my company with my current experience + education. Just having the degree on my resume would open doors.

    5. VelociraptorAttack*

      Generally an online program is going to result in the exact same diploma from taking the courses in person. I worked in higher ed and unless your school has a particular quirk, nothing is going to say it was online.

      That said, I know some people say the biggest benefit to an MBA is the networking, which you can lose in an online-only format.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I took my MBA fully online from a respected university, and my diploma looks exactly the same (barring the name, obviously) as the one that the in-person program folks got. Nobody would know from my diploma or transcripts that it was an online program.

      1. Red shirt squad*

        Your diploma looks the same but was your experience the same? Online book learning is fine but did you have to work together on group projects and give in-person presentations. Did your professor and classmates have the opportunity to give you immediate feedback and ask questions about your presentation in real time? Did you learn to think on your feet, to adapt on a moments notice, to work well face to face with people you don’t like?

        I excelled and got top marks in every online class I ever took but my real learning took place with my peers in a classroom.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          None of which has anything to do with what an online degree looks like on a resume, so go pick your fight with someone else.

            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              They are important questions for the original asker to consider about a program they may be looking at, yes. But since literally all *I* said was that at my respected brick-and-mortar state university, the transcript looks the same for an online program as a traditional program, the questions and their answers are not relevant to what I said. I also don’t particularly have an interest in defending my own educational experiences to a stranger on the internet.

            2. Autumnheart*

              Not really. It’s asking someone if they’re sure they actually got anything out of their education. Did you get anything out of your education or did you just get an expensive piece of paper? Doesn’t it feel a little insulting to be asked that?

    7. KayEss*

      Usually an online degree from a respected, accredited university is just a degree–it doesn’t say on the diploma “this was earned online” or anything. That being said, the online education experience is very different from in-classroom, in ways that make it more convenient and accessible but can be overall detrimental to the “value” of the degree. Are you anticipating making a lot of connections with your peers, or receiving hands-on guidance from successful business owners or CEOs? That’s a lot harder and less likely in an online program. Unless it’s extremely well-run (ehhh… 50-50) and all your peers are on board in making the effort (unlikely), online programs tend to be very isolating, at a time when you’re expected to be building a valuable network.

    8. Nacho*

      Online MBAs aren’t a bad idea, but a majority of schools that offer them are bad ideas in general. If you’ve found an established, respected school that you’re 100% sure isn’t a scam, then go ahead and do it.

  65. Mbarr*

    Something amusing – I’m 6 weeks into a new job where it’s SUUUUUUUUUUPER technical – like, way above my head technical. (They assure me I don’t need to know the tech stuff.) I spend most of my day googling the stuff my team talks about so I have a basic grasp.

    A few days ago I was trying to figure out what Kubernetes is and came across “The Illustrated Child’s Guide to Kubernetes” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ht22ReBjno). Everyone in the comments is laughing at it… But I was like, “Dude! Finally something that’s at my level!”

    2. KoiFeeder*

      Oooh, bookmarking that. My quiet dream achievement is to make biology and paleontology topics that accessible, it’s super cool to see people doing this in other ways.

  66. L.S. Cooper*

    If a job application online doesn’t have a place to add a cover letter, should I add one? I would say a solid 95% of the jobs I apply to are through official online portals where you have to make an account and upload your resume, with no option to add additional files and no field for a cover letter.
    I don’t want screw myself over, but I also don’t want to annoy anyone by sending them cover letters that they don’t want.
    Complicating things is that, in the most recent specific situations, I’ve actually been in contact with this company for over a year now, albeit for a role that’s very different from the one I’m applying for now. However, I have actually interviewed with them, and they stayed in touch after that, so even though I wasn’t offered the job, I get the sense that they do like me personally. In this case, I have the emails for a couple of the people who work in hiring at the company, one of whom encouraged me to apply for this new role, but I’ve got no idea if she’s actually involved in the job, or if it was a general thing. (Also, wish me luck with this one, junior developer roles that are actually entry level are few and far between.)

    1. IceCreamDreams*

      I’m not involved in hiring, but when I apply to jobs like that I always combine a cover letter and resume in one document to upload. I figure that having a cover letter will help me stand out from the people who saw one wasn’t required and opted not to include one. If the employer doesn’t want to read it I think it’s easy for them to ignore and shouldn’t be annoying.

      2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        This is a problem if the software parses your resume into form fields, though.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Very

          Most systems I’ve seen (50+ applications and counting XD) also allow the applicant to overwrite what the system automatically parsed. Just in my opinion, I would rather include the cover letter and have to copy and paste my resume bits (which I usually have to do anyway; I make my resume human readable versus computer readable) than not have a cover letter.

    2. Kiki*

      Include the cover letter in the same file as the resume. The worst thing that happens is the hiring manager has to scroll past a page. The best case is that the hiring manager reads the cover letter and gets a better sense for why you would be a great fit for the job. Including a cover letter that way shows enthusiasm but not in an excessive way, imo.

      I would email the people who you interviewed with to let them know that you applied for this new role. It may not end up leading to anything, but it’s also not likely to be perceived in a bad way (if you keep the email short, sweet, and polite). And it’s possible that one of them may be eager to help you because they’d get a referral bonus or something.

  67. gbca*

    I was reading something about a good interview question to ask (as a hiring manager): “what did you do to prepare for this interview?” As someone who has both been a hiring manager and is looking for a job, I liked it. I feel like it gives the candidate an opportunity to shine while giving the hiring manager insights on how serious they are about the job, plus also can give info they might not have thought to ask. What do you all think?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      I’m not sure what you’re hoping to learn about their actual performance though.
      It might be a good quasi-metric for how serious they are, but I know that I wouldn’t have necessarily done well as a candidate being asked that question. I interview well naturally and am well spoken about my work, so I don’t have to do a ton to prep for interviews.

    2. irene adler*

      Is that going to be one of the hiring criteria?
      Ouch!
      How does that measure how well the employee will do performing the job tasks?

      And, I could lie like a rug and say I read every word on your website, financials, Glassdoor reviews, looked up every employee on LI, etc. And how would you know I was telling you the truth?

      Try some open-ended questions that require the candidate reveal what they know about your company:
      “what did you learn from reviewing our website?”
      “Which of our products is most interesting to you? Why?”
      “What about our reputation intrigues you?”

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I like these questions better – they’re more direct and will elicit the response you’re actually looking for.

      2. L.S. Cooper*

        Related question: How on earth do you figure out what a company does from their website? I try to do my research, but the websites are all geared towards people buying whatever product the company produces, not job seekers. Maybe it’s worse looking for software jobs, but every site seems to be “we leverage technology to optimize the experience of [insert super generic description of field]”. Which tells me essentially nothing about what the heck the company….actually does.

        1. irene adler*

          Might try to find the company name in the news or in media- like the financial section.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          Lol, I had that same problem (I now work for a software company). When I interviewed, I told them I was familiar with some of their products and the industries their products were used in, and I also talked about their vision and mission statement and how I saw the role I was applying for fitting into it. They seemed to like that approach.

      3. Tigoskah*

        I like these questions better, too! Granted I’m not a hiring manager, but as a candidate it seems that how I answer those questions and others in the interview would prove how well I’d prepared. Does the interviewer need to know what steps I took to get there, or just that I did?

        (I also might be slightly biased against this question because in the interview for my last job the interviewer asked what I knew about the company, and after I gave what I thought was a pretty good mix between what I knew from my dad’s experience volunteering there and what I’d read on the website, she scoffed a little and said, “So I see you read the website.” And I was left thinking, “Aren’t I supposed to do that??”)

    3. CM*

      I’ve been asked “what do you know about the company” which I think is more relevant and also shows whether the person bothered to do their homework.

    4. KayEss*

      I’ve heard of this working well for programming roles, where the norm is that the candidate will be taking a fairly robust skills test and therefore it’s generally expected by everyone involved that you prepare for interviews like you’re studying for the SAT. Supposedly asking candidates what resources they used to prepare/refresh their skills can give you an idea of how they self-evaluate their skill level and how well-versed they are in available online resources… and of course, if they’re a massive tool who feels they don’t need to prepare for anything because clearly they’re god’s gift to C++.

      Otherwise, I think it’s kind of a condescending ‘gotcha’ question… like, no, I didn’t obsessively rehearse for this initial phone screen, because I’ve had ten interviews in the past month and don’t need to do so. I skimmed your website, because I’m not an idiot, but if you want me to have read the past ten years of your annual reports you’d better start looking for another candidate–you aren’t that special.

    5. Alphabet Pony*

      This isn’t a great question as there isn’t really any definition of what ‘good’ looks like.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This. I’m not sure there is a way for someone to shine unless they’re given more context in the question itself.
        If there’s a specific thing you want to learn, ask about that thing directly. If you want to know how they prepare for Task A of the job, ask them that. If you want to know what they know about the company generally or the position specifically, ask those questions.

    6. BethDH*

      I don’t think it tells you how serious they are (what if what they want you to think is that they’re just naturally this good at interviewing, or that they’ve been familiar with your org since kindergarten?).

      I agree that it might draw out info they wouldn’t think to give/ask or their conception of the job, but not sure it’s efficient for that.

      I CAN see this being a nice, applied way to ask someone to explain how they familiarize themselves with something new if the position involves some element of casual research and presentation on new subjects, but I might try to give a little more framing so they have some reason to know that that’s what you want.

      Basically, I think any time you can be transparent about why you want that question answered, it helps. If the question is good, doing that won’t be too leading.

    7. AppleStan*

      It is part of our standardized questions in interviews (in fact, I think it’s our very first question), and I have to tell you, that it’s not my favorite question, because with this particular line of governmental work, it’s very hard to “prepare” other than browsing our state website. There is practically no information that is of value on the job or the structure of the office that is public…I don’t like it because it starts the interview putting the applicant off-balance on something that is outside of their control, and even if they say “Oh, I looked at the department’s website and found your macro structure” it leaves them feeling “off” — and you can DEFINITELY tell. The only person who had complete confidence was someone who was friends with the department director – so could get all sorts of information beforehand that no one else had access to.

      As I write this, I’m thinking we simply need to word the question a bit better, or place it somewhere else in the line-up.

  68. Debbie*

    I’ve been told by my team lead to “distance” myself from a trouble-making co-worker. This CW has a habit of taking excessive days off, of fomenting trouble such as reporting other co-workers for “supposedly” not doing their jobs when in reality they (the trouble-maker) are deflecting on their poor work habits. I could list example after example of bad work habits and times this CW has tried to draw me and others into their “let’s revolt” schemes but I’m sure you get the gist. Most of us on our team are very conscientious, do our jobs, and want no trouble. We all wonder why this CW has not been fired, frankly but I’m sure it’s very hard to do that in today’s environment.

    In any event, I’d like some strategies for coping with CW next time they come to me complaining of this or that and try to draw me in. I’m usually a very compassionate person and find it hard to turn away from someone complaining, so I know I need to toughen up. I need to just have a co-worker relationship and not a co-shenanigans relationship.

    1. Catsaber*

      I was in this same situation. I just had to make myself less available to CW, and when they started to gripe about stuff or talk about non-work things, I’d let them know I was really busy and had to get back to work. At first they got really pissy and chewed me out for “working too hard” and “giving my soul to The Man”, but after they saw that I wasn’t going to give into their whining/tantrums, they left me alone.

    2. Not Me*

      Would it help to frame turning away from CW in your head as protecting your job? It sounds like that’s what you’d be doing by distancing yourself from them. When they come to you to complain, remind yourself engaging could hurt how your manager/team lead view you.

      Say something to CW like “I need to focus on this report” or “I can’t talk now, I’m really busy” and just go back to work. Like, physically turn back to your desk or computer or whatever you were doing.

      1. Debbie-Helvetica now*

        Yes, that does help. Because I really like my job and value how my Team Lead sees me. I’d rather please him (and myself) than CW. Thanks for the insight.

    3. Sparkelle*

      Put a quizzical expression on your face and say, “Hmmm…I don’t see it that way.” And then don’t try to fill the ensuing awkward silence.

  69. LadyPynt*

    Two things that are only tangentially related:

    1) Why do Employers ask for your resume and then cause you to fill out another application containing all the things on your resume? (this happens a lot on online applications!)

    2) If an employer calls you for an interview, interview goes well, and then asks you to fill out their application, that is a good sign, right?

    1. Kiwiii*

      They’re probably using technology in some way with the application that isn’t terribly efficient, but are preferring to look personally at a resume/the way you’d Choose to present yourself.

    2. Catsaber*

      1. Because IT applications are often inefficient.

      2. It’s good but not final.

      Good luck on your job searching!

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      1) Covers bases. Your resume may or may not contain specific information they’re looking for, but it may also contain things they didn’t anticipate to program into the online application. True, it’s annoying; the slightly smarter online applications that will at least attempt to scan your resume and then fill in the application fields are better, at least when they work.

      2) I would consider this a good sign!

    4. DukeOfPearl*

      1) Because resume is a marketing document and application is a legal document. They can (and likely should) have different info.

      2) Could be! But don’t put all your eggs in that basket.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Regarding #2 – yes, that’s usually a good sign because applications often ask you for permission for them to check your references and run a background check. That being said, it ain’t over ‘til it’s over, so try not to think anymore about it until you get official word one way or the other. Good luck!

    6. LadyPynt*

      Quick update: I sent in the application and they asked me to come in for an in-person interview today, if possible. (It is!) So I think that’s a good sign.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      1) In my world it’s because the HR people have computers that sync to the online applications which then populate their databases/forms. But that is not helpful for the hiring manager – when HR prints the online application the hiring manager gets multiple pages to wade through to find the needed info. The resume is preferable.

      2) Yes, that’s a good sign. Good luck!

    8. AppleStan*

      In my world, it’s not just about putting the experience on the application, there are also a lot of “immediate disqualifiers” due to the nature of our work (think applying to be a teacher and asked if you are on the sex-offender registry”).

      But it’s also a gauge of someone’s truthfulness, and they use it as such. Our HR department will refuse to hire anyone who says they have not been fired from a job if they find out that they HAVE been fired from a job, as an example. Something that won’t happen or you’re not attesting to when you’re submitting a resume. So it could just be little things like that.

      I saw you got called in for your interview, good luck!!!!

  70. Anon Today*

    I am starting a new job in a few weeks in my first supervisory position. The job has been empty for over 5 years due to hiring freezes and three failed searches. Any advice on how to start off on the right foot, both as a first time manager and with people who have, fairly successfully, been keeping the lights on and the doors open for such a long time? The last thing I want to do is step on toes.

    1. CM*

      I’d suggest meeting with everybody individually, acknowledging that you respect their level of experience and want to learn from them, and letting them know you’ve there to help them do their jobs. I’d also ask if they have any suggestions for you, or things that they’ve seen with people previously in their position that they particularly liked or disliked.

      1. Alphabet Pony*

        Yes, meet with them individually and get to know them. My new manager asked about what I valued about my role, what I would like to change if I could, my goals etc, and listened to the answers.

  71. Amber Rose*

    I want to go back to school.

    I’ve been making some changes to my life and getting healthier, and apparently changing one thing has put my brain into FIX YO WHOLE DAMN LIFE mode and I’m extremely feeling the urge. Thing is, I have no idea how it works to go back to school after this many years out of it, how I’d make it work around, well, work, and whether they’d even give me a loan since I’m already badly in debt.

    It’s just. I picked my degree when I was 17 and clueless, and I ended up with a B.Sc. in something I never liked and have never used. I feel like I could make a better choice now in my 30’s. And I hate what I’m doing now.

    But I’m getting mixed responses from family. Some of them tell me to follow my dreams, and then some are like my dad who says it’ll never pay off.

    I’m so torn.

    1. CM*

      What’s driving you to go back to school? Why and how do you think it will fix yo life?
      What goals do you hope to achieve? Are there other ways to achieve those goals?
      Can you afford the time, money, and energy to go back to school? Can you reasonably calculate your return on investment — for example, can you think about how much it will cost you (in lots of ways, not just money) and what you might gain from it, and see if it would be worth it?
      Can you talk to someone other than your family — maybe someone with a little more distance, who would be less invested in their vision of what your life should be like, and more likely to ask you about yours?

      1. Amber Rose*

        I want to go to school to learn a language, probably french. Knowing french in a bilingual country opens up quite a few job opportunities that would otherwise be closed. Plus I enjoy learning languages and I’m good at it. I’ve taught myself a fair bit already, but hit a wall without a teacher. What it fixes is that I really, really hate my job but I don’t have any hard skills I can use to escape.

        Can I afford school? Money-wise no, not remotely. I’m carrying insanely high levels of debt and we live paycheck to paycheck. I’d have to somehow qualify for loans, which my husband thinks I could do since I’ve paid off one set already. But I’m not so sure. Energy levels and time and stuff are not an issue. My job’s one and only plus point is flexibility around school. Many of my coworkers are currently in school.

        Not sure who I’d talk to other than family, aside from this place. What did you have in mind?

        1. Marion Q*

          If you want to learn a language, can you look into places that offer language courses (not sure what they’re called)? It won’t give the school experience, but it might be more affordable and just as helpful with the learning.

          Alternatively, is there any embassies or cultural centres in your city? Most embassies/cultural centres provide language courses, plus they have library and cultural events that will give plenty of opportunities to immerse yourself in the language.

          1. Amber Rose*

            I took one of them, but since there’s no grades and no homework and people don’t take it seriously, there was no point in being there, all we did was watch Youtube videos and play stupid games. It was a huge waste of time, and not even slightly cheaper. It was still like $400 a course.

            1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

              That doesn’t sound like a strong program. First, if learning a language is your education goal, it doesn’t sound like a degree program would be necessary or helpful, since you already have a BSc. Degree programs require general education to create a well-rounded education, while you’re looking for a specialized area/skillset development.

              Look for more programs, then ask probing questions before starting them. Who are the faculty? What is their experience with teaching? What is the curriculum (i.e. will you be watching YouTube videos again)?

              This is a U.S. perspective: I had pretty good luck with community/two-year college language courses: there were progressions in level and the teachers were professionals and trained to teach. Granted, I have the advantage that the language is my parents’ first language, so I have opportunities to practice.

        2. CM*

          Could you do some networking — think about what jobs you would be qualified for if you got better at French, find people who have these jobs, and ask them for advice? That might solve the “talk to someone outside your family” and “figure out what to do” problems at once. I switched careers years ago and found this very useful — it gave me some practical understanding of what opportunities were out there for me and whether I actually wanted them.

            1. CM*

              I think step 1 is “identify some things you might want to do,” and step 2 is “figure out how to get there.” Then possibly step 3 will be “go to school.” It seems like you’re looking at school as your solution to a bad situation, but you’re not thinking ahead about what you will actually get out of it. I hope I don’t sound harsh here, I totally sympathize with feeling trapped and wanting to do something about it. I don’t want you to end up with more debt and a degree, but still in the situation where you’re unhappy about your job prospects.

            2. Gumby*

              I think you need a stronger reason than “I don’t want to do this.” (Believe me, I get it, I have been there. I stayed about 5 years longer than I should have.)

              Your situation is, actually, a great time to break out the true informational interview. Talk to people in jobs that you might be interested in. Ask how they got there, what prep they did, what skills are useful, what the day to day looks like, what is the worst facet of the job, etc. Decide what you actually want to do before getting another degree so at least you go in knowing it is leading somewhere you want to go. Run *towards* something, not *away* from your current position. At least if there are large amounts of money involved.

        3. Paige*

          Don’t go to college/university to learn a language. Go to a language institute, or somewhere that’s going to involve immersion. For one, that should be way cheaper, and they’re often more focused on fluency as a goal. Learning a language is all about the amount and quality of input(listening, reading) you get and the feedback you get from your output(speaking, writing). You get significantly less input in most university classroom settings– much of the time, you end up teaching yourself from a textbook anyway.* You need time in the language to achieve fluency.

          If your main goal is to learn something that will get you a different job, honestly, I’d focus on other, more concrete skills/certifications. Not that learning another language isn’t helpful–it’s an awesome skill to have and has helped me a lot in my work–but it’s not the job opener that a lot of people think it is.

          *I have a graduate degree in foreign language education.

          1. Clisby*

            I was thinking the same, like the Goethe Institute to learn German, or Alliance Francaise to learn French, but of course those aren’t available everywhere. The course I took at the Goethe Institute in Atlanta was great.

    2. The Original K.*

      Do you have a path in mind? Like, do you want to get a new degree in order to change careers? If you’re not trying to change careers, will the degree you plan to get help you tangibly in your existing career? If not, can you afford the costs you’ll incur without the expectation of an ROI? How much more debt can you realistically take on? If the answer is “none,” what is plan B?

      I’m not trying to discourage you AT ALL – I love school! Just some food for thought.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I desperately need to escape my job. I don’t even have a career, I just have this job I hate where I do work nobody sees or cares about. I’m a rat in a maze doing tricks for cheese, only the scientists all got bored and left ages ago.

        But I have no real marketable skills, just this degree I got as a kid in a field that I hate and is useless. My talents lie in languages. I figure if I at least become semi-good at french I can apply for government jobs or translating jobs or something. But I hit a wall with what I can learn on my own time. I work very very poorly without structure. I’m bad at self learning.

        As for debt, I don’t know if I’d qualify. Student loans are manageable because the interest rates are so low and payments are deferred for a year or so and interest is tax deductible. Plus if I can get extra “living costs”, I can pay off higher interest loans with them. There is no plan B. If I can’t get loans I can’t school, period. But I can’t even apply until I know what I’m applying for, and I don’t know if I could even get into school.

        I’m just so unsure if all that debt would even be worth it, except to give me one more possible avenue for escape from this crappy hole I’m stuck in.

        1. Lena Clare*

          If you were going to be a translator-interpreter you need to be fluent, not just pretty good. Plus you’ll probably need a translator-interpreter qualification to be competitive as French is not really a minority language and if you’re in a bi-lingual area there will be dual linguists who can translate already.

          That’s not to p1ss in your parade – I did languages for my degree about 20 years ago, and although I don’t use them now they’re a really useful skill to have and have helped me progress somewhat in my career.

          I definitely think you should do it, especially because you want to do it and will enjoy it.

          I’m in a similar situation now, I dislike my job immensely and feel like I need a new skill in order to get other jobs and earn more money. Pay check to paddy check is no fun.
          I start an MA in October, and I couldn’t be happier! It’s given me a real energy and ability to cope with the mundanity that is my 9-5 job which I’ll still be doing part time evoke I also study. So I think it’s worth it.
          As for debt, well…education is never a bad debt I think, that and a mortgage. But I understand the apprehension. You could apply for the course and a loan and see where you get, right?

          Good luck!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can’t go off of what your family and friends will tell you. This has to be a really personal decision and you have to think of what will make you happier in the end. Your dreams and happiness are worth it.

      You’re right it’s FUBAR that we have children pick their “career” path at 17 or 18 and then treat them like some kind of wackadoo failures when their degree doesn’t take them anywhere or it rots, you know? Now that you’re older, with experience and more deeply rooted ideas of what you really want for the rest of your life, going back to school is a good idea in most situations!

      There are people who are ultra conservative and adverse to any risk, they think you’re “safe” now and therefore stay put, don’t rock that boat, keep your hands and feet inside the craft, etc! Then there are those who are flippant and will jump at everything that passes them by and that leads to issues as well, some drastic and those are the ones the conservative mindset are focusing on.

      However this is a calculated risk. Learning French will fling doors open for you in Canada like you say and know! You also have experience now in your back pocket that will make you a more desirable candidate across the board, along with extra education, that’s rarely a bad thing.

    4. MissGirl*

      Right now you don’t have enough information to make a decision. Spend a few months gathering data. Where do your interests lie? What kind of degree would you want? What are all the options—masters, bachelors, boot camps, online, community, etc.

      Talk to people who actually have the experience to give good advice. People in your field, counselors at the school, people here. Find out all the costs at all the options.

      You making a decision about what to wear in the dark. Turn on a light and that’ll help.

    6. Autumnheart*

      I went back to school at 39 and finished at 42. It was actually great. You’ve been to college before, and the overall experience hasn’t changed, but in my experience, it was SO much easier to manage books, papers and assignments electronically than it was back in the 1990s when everything was on paper. I could rent e-books from Amazon instead of paying $$$ for a hardcover copy. I definitely found that managing my time after so many years in the workforce was a BIG benefit to getting my school work done. What felt like an enormous workload as a teenager was no big deal as an adult.

      The bad news is that if you can’t afford the actual classes, then this is out of reach until you can. If you’re desperate to leave your job, then it’s time to job-search, not look at going to school. Also look into consolidating and reducing your debt, since any progress you make on that front will make school more affordable. If you can use Lynda.com or something of that nature to brush up on skills that will make you more marketable, then that might be a good use of your current flexibility without racking up a huge load of debt.

      So, I’d approach it in this order:
      1. Figure out what kind of jobs are adjacent to your current job, that you would like better
      2. Look into acquiring the skills to get those jobs
      3. Start researching on debt reduction and figure out some tools to help you use your existing money more effectively (I know this isn’t always possible—things cost what they cost, and after a point there’s nothing left to cut)
      4. Make a long-term plan where you will spend the next 1-2 years working on getting into a new job, then on paying off some portion of debt, then on the feasibility of going back to school, and for what

      If you enjoy languages and think that being a translator sounds appealing, maybe consider learning a language that is much more in demand. But in the meantime, you say you have no marketable skills, and THOSE are what you need before you begin a long-term goal like a second degree.

    7. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Ooh! Ooh! Finally a question that’s my thing! (I feel like Hermione Granger). FS(A)L teacher here.

      I think I remember that you’re a fellow Canadian, right (if not, I’m sorry for misremembering and not all of this will apply).

      1- Look up your closest Francophone university. Many of them have intensive (or more casual) immersion classes that you can take without the commitment of a degree. I believe these courses can be applied to a degree if you decide to go that route, but you don’t have to decide that right now. If you aren’t close to a Francophone university, U Athabaska has a good selection of on-line courses.

      2- Check out federal grants and other funding (the Explore program is a start). It may be limited to full-time students (so that can factor into a decision about going back) but there is money out there for people who want to learn French.

      3- Look for immersive French programs/experiences. A lot of anglophone universities will stick to the traditional text book “Voici un chat” sort of learning, which does work okay for adults, but it’s a lot more motivating when you have to use French to function. Francophone universities or trips to Quebec/ other francophone communities are probably your best bet.

      4- Jobs: French is an advantage. I got my teaching job smack dab in the middle of the recession because I was Science teacher who speaks French (you said you have a science background, have you thought of teaching? French-speaking science teachers are rare enough that they may accept you if you’re strong but not 100% fluent). That being said, French is going to be most useful in a government job (unless fix yo’ life involves moving to Quebec). I would not suggest translation. It is much harder than it looks and you have to be pretty much native French speaker fluent to translate from English to French. It’s too hard for me to do as a career and I’ve been successfully functioning in French for 30 (yikes!) years.

      5- Most Federal jobs are going to be looking to see how well you can do on their language assessment, not necessarily for a French degree. You can google samples of the test to see what level of comprehension you need to be aiming for (warning: it’s not an easy test), then have a talk with some folks who are have bilingual positions (or, again, check in with a university) to figure out some possible paths to get you to that level.

      Good luck!

    8. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I’m not sure if your French is already good enough for this, but would it be possible for you to take classes in something else in French at a Francophone university? I don’t know how possible that would be in your situation (not sure if you were planning on online or in-person classes, for starters), but if your French is good enough it might be a better way to “level up” in French while also learning the skills for some other job. I suspect that many employers would rather see “I studied (subject) at a French-speaking university for x years and here are my grades in university-level (subject) classes taught entirely in French” as evidence of fluency rather than just “here are a bunch of French classes I took” anyway, based on some similar experience I’ve had in dealing with English/Spanish fluency screens in a hiring process.

    9. Princesa Zelda*

      I live in Arizona, and I know that there are clubs here dedicated to having Spanish-speakers and English-speakers get together and teach each other through immersion (one meets at a library near me!). You can also look into free online courses. I know MIT has several French courses on their free Open Course Ware service, and there’s probably a lot more out there. I like to study languages in my free time through Duolingo, which is always free, and a lot of libraries have online and in-person resources you can use!

      You can also see if your current employer offers Rosetta Stone or something similar. The Mart of Wals offers Rosetta Stone and limited tuition reimbursement for business degrees for associates, and so did WcRonald’s when I worked there, so it’s not a massive stretch to think even marginally less terrible employers might.

      You can also try for cultural centers. A coworker of mine at one job and a supervisor at another are learning Irish through the local Irish Cultural center, and they’re getting quite good. And I don’t know how the college system is structured in your area, but if you have something similar to a community college, you can usually attend those as a Continuing Education or nonmatriculated student for less than you’d pay for university, and it can’t hurt to ask what the curriculum looks like before actually signing up.

      Best of luck! Bon chance! :)

  72. Dress code rebel*

    I’ve been reading AAM for a while and I’ve read several letters and several comments in open threads about dress codes (including the famous intern dress code petition letter). My question is about how you can bring about substantial change to the dress code. I have been in the workforce for a year now. I work in finance and the code is formal business at ALL times. I am tired of having to wear a suit every day. What are some real ways I can bring about change to my employer and the industry? Thanks for any input.

    1. Anon for thiw*

      Probably not a lot at this point in your career given you don’t have the capital to expend in something like this (especially if it’s industry wide).

    2. CM*

      Don’t try!
      You’ve been there for a year. Changing your industry’s traditional dress code is not something you have the standing or political capital to do. If you want a reputation for spending your time on stuff that is not work-related and is disruptive and divisive, go ahead — otherwise, let this one go.

    3. Tableau Wizard*

      You’ll have to be more senior to push against this, especially with such an industry norm.

      1. Nessun*

        I work for an accounting firm (a BIG one), and our dress code isn’t even business casual now. We changed it earlier this year and now there are more jeans than I’ve ever seen…every day of the week. It took a REALLY long time for the firm to adopt that approach, so it IS possible. I’ve got zero line of sight on how it happened, though I expect it was to encourage younger generations to stick around longer. (There were a lot of “if I’m meeting with farmers/startups/franchise owners who don’t wear a suit, why the heck do I have to wear one” comments for years previously.)

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          Yup – I just applied to one and the dress code is “dress for your day”
          Sitting at your desk working on files? Jeans, linen pants, sandals, etc…
          Meeting a vendor? Tailored pants, nice shirt, dressy shoes
          Meeting a client? Wear a suit

        2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          Start up types are weirdly judgy about people who wear traditional business dress. They’re almost as bad as people in conservative industries who are judgy about someone wearing casual attire.

        3. Clisby*

          But was the change driven by someone who had been working in the field for only a year? Possible, but I’d be really surprised.

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Are you client-facing finance? If so, you’re out of luck. For better or for worse, suits are the expectation when you will be talking to people about their money, either theirs personally or that of their business.

      Are you back-office? There might be more leeway. I’m in a central office for a major investment firm, and our dress code is the high end of business casual.

      However, only having been in the workforce a year is a major obstacle. Get some more seniority under your belt, learn the vibe, and maybe look for a different area of finance if the suits are stifling for you.

    6. Not Me*

      Like others have said this is not a good idea. You’re almost certainly not going to change the dress code for your employer and you’re definitely not going to change the dress code for the industry.

      About 10 years ago I was working for BigBank in a major US market. The head of HR for the market and business line and I were trying to get the most senior exec in the market to relax the dress code a bit. One Friday he came to me and said “how’s this? Casual Friday!” He was wearing a suit, but no tie. Not wearing a tie was his “casual Friday”.

      With only 1 year in the workforce, you’re not going to change the industry norm.

    7. Ann Perkins*

      If you like your industry but don’t like the formal dress code, you’ll have better luck not having to wear formal business attire if you work in an office that’s not client-facing. I.e. I work in an agency office with the financial advisors, so since clients come in our office I have to look the part even though I’m not client-facing. But at our main office, they can wear whatever they want within reason.

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      When you get to a high enough level, you maybe able to just keep a suit in your office and change as needed; however, some fields are just really conservative. I don’t think this is something you will be able to change after just one year. It’s really ingrained into the culture of finance. You might be able to shift it, if you worked in a specific geographic region. In Alaska, where I am from, suits are very rare and not worn often. I knew high level state officials who wore flannel shirts and string ties to dress up. So, it really can depend on your region.

    9. Research for days*

      You really, really can’t change this. Besides the fact that you’re way too new, you work in finance. That is a notoriously formal environment. If I were your manager I would definitely question why you didn’t think of this before choosing the field.

    10. Prime Director*

      Work really hard for several years, and move up in position multiple times. Achieve a senior position with a good company. Then evaluate whether this is the issue you want to spend the capital you’ve earned on. If so, you can begin looking at how dress codes are changing in previously formal industries and workplaces to get some ideas on how to proceed.

      Sorry, dude, but finance ain’t changing any time soon.

    12. Effie, who gets to be herself*

      Try working with startups (ie work for institutions that fund startups)? That’s a more relaxed area of finance, in my experience. You’ll still need to wear a suit sometimes, though.

      1. Effie, who gets to be herself*

        But yeah, agree with everyone above me that finance is notoriously conservative in dress in general and slow to change.

    14. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      The best way you can bring about change in your company is to be as exceptional of an employee as you can and also job-hunt to find a job at a different company with a more relaxed dress code. In your exit interview, explain that this was (one of) the reasons you left for your new company.

      If enough people do this, your company may change in an effort to retain talent. Even if they don’t change, it doesn’t affect you because you are now working at a new company with a dress code more suited to you.

      I don’t have any easier suggestions.

    15. !*

      It’s surprising that you’ve posted this if you read the intent dress code petition letter, so I have to ask: did you read Alison’s answer?

  73. paralegal part deux*

    So, my coworker (other paralegal) quit before I could find a job and get out myself. Now, the attorneys want to hire someone either in school or just graduated and have me train them and, I guess, report to me for assignments. Essentially, she’ll be getting my overflow work and will also be answering the phones and such. I am not a happy camper about any of it since I think they need to hire and experienced litigation paralegal, but no one is listening to me.
    *headdesk*

    1. Contracts Killer*

      Are you asking for ways to convince the attorneys to hire a more experienced paralegal or ways for you to see the benefit in hiring someone with less experience?

      1. paralegal part deux*

        Mostly how to get them to hire someone with experience, I suppose. I think they’re looking at it like train them before they get too ingrained in certain ways to do things (ironic, imho, since the guys are so entrenched in their habits/way to do things).

        1. Contracts Killer*

          You might try framing it as you are concerned about creating a backlog of administrative work if you have to train someone so new versus someone who can hit the ground running.

          Another approach would be to raise the concern that under the Rules of Professional Responsibility (or whatever they are called in your state), there is a high level of culpability/responsibility that attorneys have for their non-attorney support staff. If they hire a new person, not only would that take up more of your time to train them, but likely more attorney time to properly supervise them.

          Good luck!

          1. paralegal part deux*

            Well, I used your ideas and talked to my boss since he’s the driving force behind it (firm president). I guess it must have worked; because, when I went in the firm administrator’s office for something else, she’s currently putting an ad on Indeed and LinkedIn.

            Thank you for helping me frame this in a way they needed to hear!

        2. Contracts Killer*

          I don’t want to start a thread that is unhelpful, but if the attorneys insist on hiring a less experienced paralegal, there are bright sides:
          – you create their habits and expectations rather then them coming in with something different
          – you can give them the low level and grunt work assignments you hate doing
          – it can be really fun and rewarding to mentor
          – being fresh out of school, or still in school, they may have new applications, training, and ideas could help you

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Just a reminder: you can still “find a job and get out” – at any time. You are free to job search, no matter what.
      Please put YOUR career needs and interests first.
      Sending good thoughts.

  74. Mbarr*

    No advice, just some petty gleefulness… My best friend’s husband (who I loathe with a fiery passion) got laid off. Again. (This makes it like 4-5 layoffs in the 3 years I’ve known him.) He made it to just before his 3 month probation, then got told, “Sorry, we don’t think your personality is a good match.”

    He works at IT support. But he doesn’t want to be answering phones all day, so he’s always very picky about the jobs he applies for.

    Supposedly he’s still applying for jobs, but in the meantime, he’s hoping to become a professional Twitch streamer. *facepalm* Of course, I want to be supportive of his wife, so I make the appropriate sympathetic and encouraging noises…

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Seriously? Your best friend’s husband gets fired, which presumably is a major problem for her as well as for him, and you’re gloating about it behind her back? With friends like you, damn.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeaaaahhh…without the proper context, this just sounds all kinds of gross.

        1. valentine*

          It sounds like he doesn’t want to work.

          I want to be supportive of his wife
          He’s leaving a massive vacuum there.

          Does it really serve both of you for you to continue this friendship? I wouldn’t.

    4. Mbarr*

      For clarity, I’ve been nothing but supportive of both of them. But she can do better. A lot better. I’ve resisted saying anything even when I know they’re going through marriage counselling.

      He and I have a lot of conflicting values, and he offends both me and a lot of our mutual friends. Essentially, none of us would be friends with him if it wasn’t for his wife. Again, I quash my annoyance and smack a smile on my face because of my bestie, but honestly, she’d be better off without him. After his last two layoffs, I’ve willingly offered him referrals at companies I work at (provided I don’t have to work on the same team as him, or in proximity).

      1. Mbarr*

        The gleefulness stems from, “Thank goodness someone else sees how whiney he is” as I always hear him start to complain about the work and his coworkers and how he’s so much better than everyone else at the company…

        If I thought he’d actually learn from it, I’d send him some AAM articles to help reframe his mindset, but I know him well enough to know that it wouldn’t pierce his skull.

        I do genuinely feel bad for the stress this puts on my bestie. Hence me being supportive as much as I can… While trying to suppress the eye rolls in his direction.

    6. ...*

      Eek! Hope it doesn’t affect your friend too much. Sounds awfully stressful for her too!

    7. Autumnheart*

      I will diverge from the crowd and note that I dated a dude just like this husband, and still feel like Neo dodging the bullets on the roof. He also had huge issues keeping a job, feeling entitled to Follow His Dream while leaning on everyone around him to pay for him, find him a new job, and metaphorically clean up his mess time and again. People like this are just vampires, they will suck you completely dry while gaily believing that everything is fine because “it all works out somehow”, blithely ignoring how much extra work they create for others.

      I hope your bestie decides to buy him a divorce for Christmas. Ain’t nobody got time for a perennial adolescent for a spouse. Good luck.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I divorced this dude twice and have more friends than I care to think about with spouses that I do not like, respect or want to be in the same room with. But I still can’t bring myself to be happy when bad things happen to them that will also harm my friends, and even when *I* was secretly gleeful about bad things happening to my *own* crappy husbands, because it’s not just me recognizing that there’s problems thank god I’m not completely irrational now how the duck am I going to pay the bills, if I found out my friends had been crowing about it behind my back, I’m not sure they would still be my friends.

  75. Marion Q*

    My company provides care for other people’s llamas. I’m the newest member of the llama groomers, been here for six months. For the first two of months I had a rough start. This is partly because I have no work experience and partly because in general I find it difficult to adjust to new circumstances. These are not excuses; I take full responsibility of the mistakes I made.

    My work at that time was poor enough that my manager started being micromanaging. I knew I had to get my act together, so I started making checklists, keeping reminders, doing daily reviews of my tasks etc. My manager has since stopped micromanaging me and back to being as hands off as with other groomers. There are occasional minor slips, but nothing that my coworkers don’t make.

    The problem is, I don’t know where getting my act together ends and being a workaholic starts. I find myself scrambling right away to check trivial issues that my llama owners mention, even though they can definitely wait and not urgent at all. I’ve had people close to me complaining that I’m not present enough when I’m with them. And I can’t seem to trust myself. For example, a client texted me saying that they couldn’t check their llama’s status online. Even though I have clear memory of updating the status and checking it in the client’s web version, I got horribly anxious on the way home, and the first thing I did when I got home was to turn on my laptop and checked it myself.

    How do I know when I can stop being hyper-vigilant? I’m tired of being alert and on my best behaviour, so to speak, all the time. Where do I pass the “you’ve proved yourself” point?

    1. Madeleine Matilda*

      Seems like you might want to talk with your manager about her expectations such as how quickly should you be addressing client requests, are you expected to respond to clients once you’ve left the office, etc. You may not need to be hyper-vigilant all the time, but you should want to be vigilant about completing tasks that need to be completed in a timely manner.

      1. Marion Q*

        This is a good advice, but sadly when she’s being hands off, she’s very hands off. Like, most of the time tasks are given without clear deadlines, and even when they do have deadlines it’s not really enforced. I’ll try to do this, but I don’t expect much. Thanks!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is going to be very personal for you because honestly, some people simply cannot ever stop being hyper vigilant, or they will at some point backslide into forgetting things or making errors that are not the normal acceptable rate.

      Then there are those who just need to be hyper focused like this until things become routine, which I hope is the case with you. So you can slowly peel it back and slowly try to let go. Forward yourself reminders if necessary if someone texts you late at night, to remind yourself to do it first thing in the morning. It’s all about slowly stepping back and seeing if you can keep up without all the safety nets you have in place.

  76. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from Still Not the Hellmouth! It was an interesting week, in that I got to do more than take online classes. Also, this property is very dog friendly and there seems to be a never ending stream of cute dogs being walked in front of the office or brought through the office so they can receive pets and general fussing, which is nice. Unfortunately, the other leasing consultant gave her two week notice on Monday (she is going back to school), so I will soon be alone up front and will also be working all weekends until she is replaced… and they spent a few months looking for my position before they hired me, so it may be awhile before her replacement is found. Still, it is very beautiful here, most of the residents seem to be nice to normal crazy, and I definitely feel a lot safer. I also will hopefully here back from the state agency I applied at soon, so hopefully I will make it to the final round there. And in It’s a Small World and Also WHAT ON EARTH news, I found out that my current assistant manager (who I really, really like) was sued by Former Hellboss last year! And Assistant Manager wasn’t even working in property management at the time!

    It sounded pretty crazy, Assistant Manager was working for an company that handled renter’s insurance at the time, and Hellboss (who was at the property where she worked immediately prior to the Hellmouth) told her that she would allow AM to “sponsor” a resident event, and all she had to do was supply $350 worth of alcohol (side note: I know this property management company and am 99.9999999999% sure that they have strict rules about not having alcohol at resident events, so I think this was Hellboss trying to have some hooch on hand paper trail free). So AM got it set up with her company, purchased and delivered the alcohol… and shortly thereafter received an email from Hellboss thanking her for her donation before informing her that because the property had an exclusive contract with a different insurance company AM couldn’t actually attend the event or put out any branding, literature, etc. So AM wrote a complaint and sent it to the regional manager of Hellboss. Which eventually came to light/was shown to Hellboss when she was terminated from that company. So Hellboss SUED AM FOR $40,000.00. She claimed it was the amount of income AM cost her through malicious slander. Crazypants, right?

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Right? Apparently Former Hellboss sued her 11 months after the incident–I guess right before she wouldn’t be able to sue her? And Former Hellboss acted as her own lawyer. It apparently did not go well for her in court.

        1. irene adler*

          Well, you know what they say about those who represent themselves- they have a fool for a client.

        2. Karen from Finance*

          I don’t know how this work. Does AM get any compensation for her troubles if/when she wins this obviously-bananas case?

          1. Lilysparrow*

            Not usually, unless she countersues for distress, lost wages, etc.

            Though if OP is in the jurisdiction I think she’s in, a winning party can petition for the loser to pay their costs, and the court has broad discretion about granting that request.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Just wait. I’m sure that 11 months out from her termination from the Hellmouth I will be served with papers. This seems to be a Thing That She Does. The AM wasn’t the only one who got sued. And she apparently sued people from the workplace before THAT (which she was also terminated from).

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Honestly? Might be worth it. You’ll be so far removed from it, you will be able to appreciate the funny like the rest of us.

        2. Coder von Frankenstein*

          Well, at least you know it’s coming! I wonder if there’s anything you can do to prepare so you can get it smacked down with minimal fuss.

          1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

            Other than making sure I am well stocked with popcorn, I’m not really sure what prep I could do. I guess make sure that I have copies of all of the stuff that I sent to HR printed and ready to go?

            1. irene adler*

              Can you assemble a list of all her prior actions towards other people and demonstrate a clear history of malicious prosecution?
              Is she, by chance, on any sort of vexatious litigator’s list? (Said list ought to be public)
              Might be useful to have this info at hand. And brought to the judge’s attention if necessary.

            2. Ra94*

              Find a lawyer with a sense of humor, who will joyfully help you out for free. (Kidding, but I say this as a lawyer who would *pay* to get to work on this delightful stew of crazy.)

              1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

                Well, if you’re available in 11 months and able to practice in my weirdo state… ;)

                1. Ra94*

                  I’ll have escaped to another continent (literally) to get away from my own, milder Hellboss. But boy do I want to see her interact with a judge. Particularly hoping she comes across a sarcastic one who doesn’t pull punches.

              2. Office Gumby*

                What is the possibility of a pre-emptive letter from legal counsel essentially stating, “We know you tend to sue former co-workers. We also know you lose. Save yourself the trouble and don’t bother. If you do bother, know that when we win, we will ask that you be made liable for our court costs.”
                Is that a thing in the US? We did this here (overseas).

            3. Hallowflame*

              Go ahead and start putting a little money aside out of every paycheck for a legal fund. If Hellboss pops up down the road and serves you papers, you have the cash ready to hire a lawyer to take care of that nonsense. If she leaves you alone, you can use the savings to treat yourself to something nice, like a spa day!

    3. Bee's Knees*

      Well isn’t she just… special. But now you and AM can bond over her crazy. Like bigfoot sightings. You saw her too?

          1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

            I didn’t actually ask, but I’m guessing so? She said that the whole thing wound up being dismissed as the judge said there was no case there. Former Hellboss didn’t have a copy of the complaint, but claimed that it said all sorts of incredibly outrageous things (apparently she went on for over an hour), AM then took the stand, spoke for about 5 minutes and handed over a copy of the complaint (which included none of the crazy things Former Hellboss claimed) and the judge threw the case out.

    4. Auntie Social*

      Can’t they hire whoever they thought was #2 or 3 from the list of applicants for your job? They already have a stack of resumes. This shouldn’t take long.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        They really dismissed everyone before me, I don’t think they would be in contention. Leasing positions don’t necessarily draw the best candidates in this town if you’re looking for a certain level of professionalism or experience with Class A (although there are more Class A properties here now than there used to be), it can be hard to find good candidates depending on when you are looking and if you have very specific criteria (and my new manager is a Very Specific Criteria kind of guy).

    5. Anono-me*

      Can you get the same lawyer that AM had?

      1. It’s always good to go with someone who’s proven successful in the past.

      2. FHB might be intimidated into backing down if she has to go up against someone who already beat her.

      3. AM’s lawyer maybe two or three steps ahead of someone who is brand new to dealing with FHB. (You might need some sort of sign off from AM to reuse work.)

      Good luck with everything. And thank you for continuing to post.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        AM actually didn’t hire a lawyer. She just went to court, and it got thrown out because… well, I guess because it was obviously bogus. Former Hellboss also was not using a lawyer, apparently all local lawyers turned her down.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I wonder if they turned her down entirely (“no, I will not take your case because it is full of evil bees rather than legal theories”) or just refused to work on contingency and she wasn’t feeling to pay their fees upfront? It’s…a rare case that you can’t pay fees/by the hour to get someone to take if their pay isn’t tied to the outcome, although it sounds like the Hellboss is capable of coming up with things baseless enough that it’s a straight no.

          At least your new AM will be pretty much guaranteed to see your side of things rather than take Hellboss’s word for it if she hears wild rumors about the Hellmouth…

          1. Lilysparrow*

            Or perhaps she’s well known enough in the local legal community that nobody wants to work with her.

    6. Laura H.*

      I’m still doing a double time Happy dance beacause no more Hellboss, and no more Hellmouth, but not everybody followed your saga- any plans for a mega update for AAM to post?

      But yay for you still and yikes… small world.

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Aw, thank you! I’m still kind of in limbo–not out of property management yet, not feeling remotely settled or all of the way detoxed yet–but maybe I would send in an official update once those two things were more rectified.

    7. NerdyLibraryClerk*

      Former Hellboss is totally banana crackers! D: She and the Hellmouth were made for each other. (And she’s got to be running out of places to get fired from. Or am I seriously underestimating how many property management companies there are in your average city?)

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Well, a lot of her LinkdIn info is pretty heavily falsified/deliberately misleading. Her reputation (which used to be pretty good) is… not so great anymore, so it might be harder for her to get hired by local companies, but her MO the last few years has been to work for bigger companies that only have limited (think between one and three) properties in the state and no real local knowledge. She is one heck of a salesperson, and sells herself REALLY well, but I have to think that she is going to have a harder time finding something now than she would have three years ago.

  77. Anona*

    They’re hiring a replacement for my boss soon. I’m really nervous because my boss was wonderful, and was in the role for 10 years, just a great mentor. Really wondering how this will turn out.

    1. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      It might make sense to start looking for a new job just in case your new boss isn’t a good fit for you. That way, you’ll be one step ahead if you end up seeing that things aren’t going to work out. But if things do work out with the new boss, you can always stop looking and stay.

  78. Nicki Name*

    Trust me, this is eventually work-related.

    The next Fire Emblem game is coming out soon on the Nintendo Switch. I’m a huge Fire Emblem fan, but I don’t have a Switch yet because this is the first Switch game I’ve gotten excited about.

    I work in a well-compensated industry, but a minimum $200 to have another controller cluttering up the place (if I wait until September for the Switch Lite) plus $60 for the actual game is still not pocket change.

    But Fire Emblem!

    Well, I posted last week that I’ve gotten bored at my current job and it’s time to polish up my resume and get searching… so it was thinking about the new game that got me to sit down and get busy on it. If I get myself a new job (which is likely to involve a significant salary bump because I’m looking to move up a step anyway), then I’ll get myself a Switch and the new Fire Emblem.

    Call me a slave to consumerism, but it’s what worked.

    1. LessNosy*

      Honestly, sometimes material items motivate me too. My laptop is on its last leg so I’m telling myself once I get a new job, I’ll get myself a new laptop :) Enjoy your Switch when the time comes!!

    2. Entry Level Blues*

      I was initially not the biggest fan of what was shown with 3 Houses but the new trailers and reviews have been amazing. Hope you get that new job so you can enjoy it! :) I’ve set a similar goal (new job = money for 3 Houses) but I think I’ll pass on the Switch Lite – the lack of certain features is a big turn off for me.

      1. Nicki Name*

        I had a similar reaction– when the first descriptions started appearing, I was all “noooooo why does Japan have to turn everything into high school eventually” but with the trailers… yeah, I still want to play this thing.

        I’m still debating between the Switch and Switch Lite– even if I get the full one, I know I’ll wind up using it in handheld mode most of the time.

    3. DukeOfPearl*

      YES!!!! My house is going to be all-fire-emblem-all-day once it releases.

      I told myself I’d get my first tattoo after getting a new job (about a year ago, now). It was a great motivator.

      Now if only the promise of sky diving was as a motivator for weight loss :(

    4. Antilles*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. After all, plenty of people get motivated to change jobs because of a vehicle or a new house and nobody blinks an eye at that.
      Also, off-topic, but once you get your Switch and build up the funds a little bit, you should seriously consider Mario Maker 2 and Zelda: Breath of the Wild, because both are stellar. Even if you used to play the old Marios or Zeldas and got away from it because the formula got stale (let’s be honest: it absolutely did), both are sufficiently different from the old school ones that they definitely feel like an entertaining refresh of the old classics. Maybe after finishing Fire Emblem, you can find them a bit on sale and go with it.

  79. IceCreamDreams*

    How do you go about getting training when you’re told you need to get training?

    I was told that one of my “goals” for my second year of work would be to get training from Teammate A & B on everything they do so I could act as a backup for them and be promoted to their roles later. When I asked for details on how the training would happen, my supervisor said to talk to my teammates about it because they would know how to handle it. So I told my teammates I was supposed to be learning all their responsibilities, and asked them if I should be shadowing them or if there were certain times they were less busy and and could train me, etc. My teammates had no idea they were supposed to be training me, so they said they’d talk to my manager about it to clarify what she wanted and get back to me.

    So I followed up with my teammates after a week, then after a few more weeks, then after a few more weeks…And they kept saying they needed to talk it over with my manager.

    At my midyear review, I bring up to my manager that I haven’t gotten any training and ask what to do. She says she’ll talk to my teammates about it, and then I end up following up with her multiple times without getting any answers.

    At my yearly review, my supervisor was unhappy I didn’t get the training and I only got half a bonus since I didn’t reach that “goal.”

    Should I have done something differently? I’m so confused about how I’m supposed to get training.

    1. irene adler*

      Dang- I’m sorry you got shorted because your teammates were not cooperative on this. IF it were me, I’d push back on this because it’s not like you didn’t try to complete this assignment.

      But I commend you for keeping at it.

      Only things I could suggest is to ask them about any documentation you could have read prior to doing any shadowing. And, after their third rebuff (“need to talk it over with manager”), I would have trotted them into boss’ office to hash out right then and there (“Okay boss, you want me to be trained to do their tasks, but they won’t cooperate until they talk it over with you. So, here we all are -together- let’s get talking -right now!”).

    2. LCL*

      Manager should be figuring this out since he is basing your pay on it. But since he isn’t, make some time to talk to A and B separately and find out exactly what their duties are. You can skip this step if you already know. Then write them all down, and talk to them and ask to work with them as it fits in their schedule, as they do these different duties.

      1. Alex*

        This. And if they say “I need to talk to manager about it,” you can say, “Manager asked me to handle this with you, actually. Can I shadow you the next time you do X task?”

        You’re going to need to break down exactly what you need to know by piecing together what they know, and then proactively try to be around when they do those things.

    3. CheeryO*

      The only thing I can think of is that you were maybe a bit too indirect when you initially spoke with your coworkers. I would have said something like, “Hey, Supervisor told me that I should ask you for training on X. Maybe we could come up with a time to sit down and go over it?” But really, your supervisor should have given them that message herself. Sounds like she was too busy (or lazy, or both) to make that happen, which is unfortunate.

    4. Zephy*

      I think the only other thing you could have done would have been to go back to your manager immediately after approaching your teammates and learning that they were not aware of this training plan, but honestly, your manager should have looped them in from the beginning.

    5. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Wow. Sounds like an excuse to not give you your full bonus. That stinks.

    6. Sam Foster*

      Did you schedule a meeting with the manager and the two “trainers” to discuss things?

    7. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      One possibility of what you could have tried: Setup a meeting with your manager/supervisor* and the trainers to discuss the training plan. Corral them into a room for an hour and manage up until there is a training plan in place. Repeat as needed to implement said training plan.

      After 2-3 follow-ups (or weeks) with either party and no result, taking the lead on making them coordinate with you might have been a good next step. And it might not be too late to try this, at least to get the ball rolling.

      *Also, I’m assuming your manager and supervisor are the same person. If so, I echo other commenters that penalizing you for *them* not following up was bad management.

    8. nonegiven*

      Do all the follow up by email and keep it in its own folder so you can show how many coworker and manager emails you sent trying to get training. Make sure they all start off about when you talked to them about it in person each time and the email is to remind them that you need to get this training and cc the manager, coworker, and if it’s a different person, supervisor.

    9. Alphabet Pony*

      I’m so sorry you got shortchanged on your bonus.

      I’m wondering how much autonomy you have in general in your work, because that affects this a bit. If you’re generally trusted or expected to figure things out, it would make sense to expect you to sort this one – but not if you’re very junior or don’t have a lot of power to make decisions.

      It can help if you set up a meeting with people and put in the agenda what decisions you need to make or outcomes you need to agree.

  80. CustServGirl*

    IT’S MY BIRTHDAY!!!!

    Tell me your cheap boss/coworker stories! (I’ve been curious since that letter earlier this week)

    1. Art3mis*

      I used to work at a company where 1. It was customary for managers to take their team for a holiday lunch and 2. Every day we had free lunch supplied to us.
      One year I had a manager who took us to lunch… in the employee cafeteria. And he was C-suite level. So, yeah.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      “Hey Boss, I need a filing cabinet, can you get me one, please?”
      “Oh of course! I’ll get you one tonight and bring it in tomorrow.”
      ————————————–Wiggly Fingers, the day becomes the next day——————–
      Boss then proceeded to go to the newest thrift shop and got the cheapest one. It was busted out completely but hey, it was a filing cabinet! “Hey I found you one! It was only $10, what a steal!”

    3. DukeOfPearl*

      My coworker (male) and I (female) had to room together for a week on a business trip because boss didn’t want to pay for another room. I was young and didn’t realize at the time that that was not okay.

      1. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        Are you serious?? That is just all kinds of wrong. What is wrong with some people?

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      Happy birthday! That’s all I got – I don’t have any cheap boss stories sadly.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      Not mine but my husband’s:
      He’s worked for a family owned company (not a horrible bad one though…its huge) and every Friday they would go out to a local restaurant for an informal meeting. The VP, who was one of the brother and handled the finances for the company, would always order the vegetable soup and bran muffin no matter what. About a year in my husband commented that the soup and muffin must be really good. VP said “Sure I guess. But it is also the cheapest lunch on the menu and since the company is paying we need to keep costs down.” Almost everyone else was getting some kind of burger or other sandwich including the President and other VP’s (all brothers). It was a group of around 7-10 people and the burger baskets were under $10. His lunch was $3.97.

      2 days after this the company announced record setting profits and that the quarterly profit sharing had to be split between the 401k and cash because it would cause overage tax penalties for many employees.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        LOL well I mean if he was only spending $4 to everyone else’s $10, he was saving a whole whopping $312 a year. I’m sure that’s not where the bulk of the profits were coming from.

        But not going to lie, I get Costco cookies for meetings instead of going to the bakery that the last person in charge of snacks did. Everyone loves the darn things, so I’m not even sorry! Also when I go Costco, everyone gets multiple cookies, previously the other person would get special bakery ones and get exactly one per person [they were big fancy cookies, so it’s not like that Donut Hole Monster from the other day LOL]

        1. Wishing You Well*

          Costco cookies are TASTY!
          (And, given that some people tend to take more than one cookie, you’re preventing fist fights!)

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Costco’s bakery is way better than it has any business being. No shame.

          1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

            Yeah, I’d get my special-occasion personal cakes at Costco except that they are way too large for the amount of cake I need at personal events. They do a good job by not having too many options but doubling down on doing well with the ones they have, so it’s good for those work events where you want One or Two Generic Cake Flavors In Quantity anyway rather than to be overwhelmed with a long list of potential options and trying to figure out which kinds to order and then remember which of the 5 white cakes had the raspberry filling so you can cut that one next since you cut the lemon one last time.

    6. MountainHire*

      My one co-worker, actually a Senior executive, is famously stingy. He is well-known around the organization for bringing large tupperware with him to meetings that are catered and will fill them up (after everyone’s eaten at least) even though he makes 6 figures.

      Also happy birthday, I hope you took the day off for a long weekend!

    7. Interplanet Janet*

      In the late 90s I worked for a guy who made us save all the dot matrix printer paper so we could feed it through the printer a second time to print on the back side.

    8. Schnoodle HR*

      I left a terribly toxic job and a couple weeks into my new job, the old boss calls me, demanding where the label maker is (you know, handheld thing, $15 at Staples?) in the middle of my workday. I tell him where it was left, knowing my terrible coworker probably swiped it.

      But how are you going to call an ex employees during working hours about a $15 item?!? I had just changed phones and lost contacts or I wouldn’t have answered.

    9. Anonymous Mammal*

      I’ll be anon for this since it could get identifying…

      Employees had to fight to get new office chairs after more than a decade and a half of the same breaking down ones.
      The cleaning crew sweeps the carpet (removing large visible stuff only) because we don’t pay enough for regular vacuuming. Supposedly vaccuuming does happen occasionally but we’ve never seen it.
      Speaking of which, our employers laid off all the cleaners right before Christmas one year and then a month and a half later deigned to rehire them as contractors (so they didn’t have to pay benefits anymore).
      We had to buy our own break room fridge.
      My filing cabinet is older than my mother and I am not new to the workforce.
      Almost everything we get replaced in the office is just new-to-us, aka rejects from another office belonging to the same employer.

      My friend works at a different office that is so stingy they wouldn’t pay for anything to clean desk tops (like lysol wipes) even though the cleaners don’t do it and people eat at their desks.

      1. Anonymous Mammal*

        Sorry, now I’m looking at my list and it just sounds depressing and not funny…

        What did make me laugh one time was getting a Christmas present from the school I worked at which was a pencil and a $2 lottery ticket. We didn’t use pencils for our job duties.

    10. Karen from Finance*

      Manager offered to bring the food to a team lunch (common option in my country). She said they were meat empanadas. They were 90% filled with rice. You do not put rice in empanadas.

      We could’ve just ordered pizza…

    11. just a random teacher*

      In about 2006 or 2007, I worked as a teacher in a small town. (The year is important to this story.) We had quite a few boxes of 3 1/2 inch floppy disks in the storage room, so I got permission from the school secretary to take a few boxes for use with my students in the computer lab. (I taught computer applications/programming.) Since we happened to still have floppy drives in the new lab computers (this was common but by no means a given at the time), it gave students an easy way to share files with each other when I had them collaborating since the district wouldn’t let them have email accounts (there is a longer version of this story).

      She was upset that I did not collect the disks for re-use at the end of the year, but rather let each student take their assorted projects home on them if they wanted to, since we’d need them for next year and they weren’t a “consumable item” to be given away like that.

      In 2007.

      I assume she still has boxes of them now.

  81. EIGHT FOOT VERTICAL LEAP*

    I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS.

    How do you know when a potential job is too much of a stretch? I have a possible job offer in the works – they want me, I want them, everyone is very excited and enthusiastic. Money is great, location is great (although I would have to move), the opportunity to grow my skills is there, it’s really looking good.

    The only thing holding me back is that where I am now, I do probably 1/3 of the tasks I would be taking on in this new position, but they want me because I know what I’m doing and I know the landscape of the work. It would be a stretch job for sure, but I don’t think it’s totally beyond me.

    When you guys have taken stretch jobs, how did you decide to finally go for it? What was it like those first few months?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This has a lot to do with your comfort in stretching yourself and ability to learn/adapt to new things.

      My first job was a huge stretch, I was brought in with just over a year of general accounting experience to run the entire office and eventually the entire place. However I learn on my feet, I don’t need training much and really am a master of reverse engineering things, so all I had to do in a lot of situations was go reverse a bunch of things to find how where things came from to begin with.

      It takes months to really feel comfortable in the end, you do often have to fight your internal jerk-around that says “Aren’t you a bit too big for those britches tho?”, that’s part of the challenge at least for me because I struggled with self esteem in general when I was younger.

      This is really one of those “fake it til you make it” set ups! Many people do it and can rock at it, it’s all about knowing what your comfort zone is and pushing boundaries. All the greats have had to do it, the bigger the risk, the better the reward a lot of times.

    2. merp*

      My last job was a stretch for me, and I had the benefit of a manager who praised my initiative to learn/ask questions/research things instead of my technical know-how. (Bc in my case, my lack of experience was mostly technical.) So in my case, it is the environment that helped. Did you get a sense of the culture of the place, that it might be somewhere that values taking on new things with enthusiasm and learning about them over knowing them already? (I know it’s hard to get a real sense of culture when interviewing but I wanted to mention it.)

      1. EIGHT FOOT VERTICAL LEAP*

        I’d called the person who would ultimately be my boss just to ask for job hunting advice, activate my network, etc., and the call turned into an impromptu job interview – which I think we both realized about halfway through, lol. So she knows my experience gaps and didn’t seem worried about them. (Think of it like this: a teapot compliance officer in 99 teapot companies would do tasks A, B, C, D, E, and F. In my company, tasks A, C, and D are delegated to other departments, so I only know B, E, and F and absolutely loathe doing F.)

        What I worry about is that I’m overselling what I know about B and E, and then I’ll find out when I get there that I have been heavily reliant on my company’s infrastructure, and I’m not as good as I think I am. I’ve been dealing with some bad burnout and job dissatisfaction for the past year or so, and it’s impacted my overall confidence level.

  82. Bend & Snap*

    Anyone dealing with life burnout? My job is demanding but fun–I work for a great company and really like my manager and team.

    I’m also a single parent to a 6-year-old, preparing to move house all by myself and generally don’t feel like I get enough time off of either work or parenting to recover from either. If I’m not working, I’m momming and vice versa. So it’s more my life circumstances causing the burnout, vs. there being something to fix at work.

    Any tips? Anyone in the same boat?

    1. Ann Perkins*

      Similar situation here – not a single mom but I have a 2 year old and 6 month old, and my husband is in the reserves so he’s gone at least once per month. The kids commute with me so I’m in the “working or momming 24/7” boat too.

      If you have some flexibility with your hours, I love to work through lunch a few days per week, and a couple days per week take long lunches. It gives me time to run errands by myself, shop, go to the chiropractor, whatever I want to do that’s easier without kids in tow. Also I don’t know what your 6 year old is like but taking a walk in the evening and reading instead of scrolling through my phone at night makes a huge difference.

      1. CM*

        Not in the same boat, but I sympathize and agree with finding time to relax anywhere you can carve it out of your schedule. Lunch hour, show up an hour late to work or leave an hour early, wake up early and have a cup of tea while reading a magazine. You could try taking a “day off” of responsibilities where you just don’t do any chores and you and your kid eat cereal for dinner. And obviously if you have anyone in your life who you can lean on, or a babysitter, or a “parents’ night out” type program at a local school or daycare, having one entire day or evening to yourself is so restorative. I like to imagine, if I had a whole day to do whatever I wanted, what would I do? And I find that often, I can take some component of that and fit it into my schedule.

    3. Mazzy*

      Yes, I think it’s important to find an area of your life where you can make progress and keep track of it. For example, maybe you can make a chart of contributions to your retirement account, so you can see how you’re accomplishing something and not just spinning your wheels? Maybe it’s a fitness goal – lose X pounds or run a mile in a certain time or build up to a certain distance?

    4. A Non E. Mouse*

      Late to the party, hopefully what I say can help though!

      I have three kids, a full time job, and have recently had to take over my ailing parents lives (I would say finances, but I’m coordinating everything really). My husband works 60+ hours a week, and I have a 30 to 45 minute commute each way.

      I’m busy. Mind-numbingly busy.

      Here’s what helps me:

      1) Make sure I have easy dinners ready. Nobody in my house dies if we have pizza one night, and nachos the next. The freezer is my friend. This allows me to get dinner on the table and cleaned up from relatively easily, so that the rest of my evening isn’t awful (and involves snuggles!).

      2) Let the house be dirty. Not actually *dirty*, but if it’s cluttered? So what.

      3) Automate the heck out of your life. I found that my most panic-stricken moments were the mornings I realized I needed some sort of uniform washed and dried for that evening, but it needed to wash and dry itself while I was at work (or, I needed 30 valentines bought so my kid could painstakingly write their classmates names out slooooooowly while I withered away). I started putting reminders on my calendar, then having my calendar send a daily agenda – so if I needed X clean/bought/prepared for the next day, it showed up on my agenda email the day before…and I could then do X when I got home that evening. This takes more work on the front end (I get a notice from the school or team or whatever, and I have to then put it on my calendar in the way that reminds me appropriately – so game on the day of, plus a “get uniforms ready and buy snacks remember gluten free this team” for 6pm the day before).

      4) Counterintuitively: plan some fun events for you both. We are lucky enough to be in a metro area that has lots of free or low-cost activities that are kid friendly. Is it work and tiring to get everyone out of the house for a Saturday morning outing? Yep. But it allows us to be people with each other, rather than just Mom The Drill Sergeant and Her Soldiers.

      #4 is really the best one. I figured out what I was doing a lot of the work around parenting, and not having a lot of *fun*. Adding fun back in – even though it took time and planning – brought back some joy.

      I’m still completely overrun with life and work, but I’m having more fun.

  83. taylor swift*

    I’m ready to start making some big changes – I’d like to move to Chicago, either next summer or the summer after (depending on what happens with my current job). For reference, it’s about 4 hours from where I currently live, so easily driveable for interviews, etc.

    I’ve never done a move like this before – what comes first? Finding a job or finding housing? How far in advance should I start looking for jobs? 3 months before my desired move date? 6 months?

    1. Sharkie*

      I moved from the east coast to Minnesota 2 years ago. I got my job first then housing. I started looking for a job about 4 months before the move date and put it in my cover letter that I was moving to Minnesota in January so the employers knew my timeline

    2. Kiwiii*

      Somewhere in between 3 and 6 months is probably about right. Ideally, you’ll want a local address you can refer to as yours (and/or a place to crash) OR let employers know that your move is happening whether or not you find a job (this doesn’t have to be true) so they don’t feel responsible for uprooting you (or worry about you trying to commute from Madison or Springfield or wherever). I wouldn’t close on housing before you have an offer, but I would look as you go (even just at what part of Chicago/the suburbs you’ll be able to afford/want to live in) and also keep an eye on places to find someone who needs a roommate, in case you get a really good offer but don’t have an apartment lined up. I’d much rather have a roommate situation I’m not a Huge fan of for 6 months than pass up a job opportunity in a place I’m actively trying to move to. late spring/early summer is a good time to move bc often you can find subleases from college students with internships/families out of the area.

    3. LawBee*

      No later than six months out, I’d say. Chicago is expensive and a tough city to live in (even as it is wonderful) and being unemployed there is even harder. Plus, if you have a job first, you may be able to negotiate moving expense reimbursement.

    4. liz*

      I’m moving from NC to DC (so about 4 hours as well) next month. I started by deciding I wanted to, and then deciding whether it was more important to me to be in the city or have a job. For me, I love my current job (dreading giving notice) so I was really picky with which jobs I applied to and when I wanted to move.

      I started looking in April (late April is when I applied to the one I got) and I don’t start until mid-August, but I negotiated that start date out given some stuff at my current job. I’d be prepared for it to move quicker than you expect!

      Also highly recommend putting in your cover letter that you want to move and when – but be prepared for them to not even notice, nearly every HR person I spoke to was surprised I wasn’t in the city haha.

    5. Teapot Painter*

      Chicagoan here!

      Find a job first while ALSO looking at housing. Housing is really expensive here, even for bad places. And if you want to live downtown you have to be prepared to shell out, even for roommates. Keep in mind transit when looking for jobs and housing as well. If you’re in a high paying industry then you won’t have trouble with housing at all. You’ll have to keep transit in mind instead.

  84. DVH*

    Has anyone had to leave a job you love because of money? How did you finally make the decision to leave? Did you ask for a raise you knew you wouldn’t get or did you just move on?
    I work for a nonprofit that I love but I’m not just making enough for the basics so I feel like I need to move on but it breaks my heart. I would appreciate advice from anyone how has been in a similar situation. Thanks

    1. DukeOfPearl*

      Yep, and I have no regrets. I do miss something things about the job, but the financial security has made so much of a difference. And I’ve come to realize a job is a job. For me, financial security is one of the (if not the best) thing that helps the symptoms of my mental illness. As a result, my overall health, relationships, and well-being improve.

      The boss from that job and I are still very good friends, and our friendship is so much better because we don’t have that barrier of boss/employee.

    2. MikeeBeth*

      I have, but my situation was a little different. I was working two part time library jobs, one in the city where I live and the other in the adjacent county. I had been working at Local for a year and Adjacent for only about four months when Adjacent told me I’d need to work every Saturday. It was made very clear that it was not optional or able to be worked around in any way. Local required every part time associate to work every other weekend, Saturday and Sunday, and also was not able to accommodate any changes to that. So I left Local because Adjacent paid more, but Adjacent also was able to give me PTO with the increase in my hours and it’s a professional librarian position whereas at Local I was only an associate. I technically didn’t leave over money, but it was a deciding factor between two jobs. It really sucked to leave, but I love my job at Adjacent and the people I work with just as much and I’m really happy here other than the fact that I’m only part time. My decision was forced by a deadline, though, not necessity.

      I will say that a full time opportunity opened up recently, and I decided against applying for it after having a conversation with my supervisor. I asked her about the possibility of getting more hours, and she said that there wasn’t opportunity for that at the moment because we didn’t have any gaps, but since she knew I wanted more hours she’d be able to keep me in mind if something did open up, and she had me cover some hours when someone went on vacation. Also, they have a history of consistently giving 5% raises every year, and this year MLS positions (including me) got a $3 an hour raise. So in that context I know that this library cares a lot about their employees and that there’s possibility for advancement here. I’d suggest asking for a raise, and seeing how that conversation goes.

    3. Marion the Librarian*

      I had to leave a non-profit that I LOVED 3 years ago. It was a combination of feeling some burnout, no more advancement in my role (and no other role to be promoted into) and realizing I needed a new challenge. I didn’t ask for a raise since I knew there was no room in the budget. We got raises each year I was there except for my last year because of the new minimum wage increase and required sick leave for PT employees (this was in Massachusetts).

      I thought long and hard about it for 6-9 months before making my decision to leave. When I told my boss, she was bummed but very supportive. I had the luxury to time my notice with our slow season and was able to hire and train my replacement, which made leaving easier. And I am still very good friends with my boss, who has provided references for all my future job searches.

      The whole process felt like ending a relationship in that I knew it was over, but it took a while to make the decision to leave. Looking back, I value my time there immensely, but it is so nice to have a savings account again. Good luck!

    4. Stella*

      I truly loved my old job and still miss parts of it, but I don’t regret my decision. In my last year there I was unbelievably burned out. I didn’t have any benefits, I didn’t have the help I needed, and I knew I wasn’t going to get any more raises. I will never love my new job the way I did the old one, but at least for now I have a proper benefits package, I’m able to (for the first time in 4 years) put money into my savings account, and am able to afford a nice apartment.

      It is so hard to leave a job you love, but not having to worry about the money side of the equation is a massive relief. It’s ok to want more for yourself than ‘just making enough for the basics’. You’re worth more that.

  85. Are they going to laugh if I apply?*

    Hello! I’m applying for jobs and I have read the posts about applying for a job that you’re not exactly meeting the requirements. Also have read the comments that said “Be a 60%-er!” I think I’m just getting nervous about the amount of years required for this job.

    I graduated from grad school in 2016, so I have about 3 years of non-school work, but I also was required to do professional internships for my grad program for the 2 years I was in school. I guess I could say I have 3.5 years total experience including the internships? Since they were all part time internships.

    The job posting requires “BS with 10 years experience or MS with 5 years experience.” That’s what’s keeping me from applying… the rest I think I could do! The pay range is pretty wide, making me think someone with 10 years would get the higher end and maybe they would be lenient with the lower range.

    I wonder if they would laugh if I applied and blacklist me, and I ask that because my own boss told me the story of my hire. She said she got applications from people “who worked at Lowe’s” and then had a good laugh about that and flagged them for if they applied again. Ever since then, I’ve been weirdly paranoid about applying, but my boss can be quite mean, so perhaps I’m anxious over nothing?

    1. LessNosy*

      I absolutely think it’s worth applying! I feel like your boss was just being mean and normal hiring managers wouldn’t do that… but yes, apply, you never know until you do :) Good luck!

    2. CheeryO*

      Sounds like it may be a slight stretch, but definitely not a laughable stretch! Go for it!

    3. Natalie*

      Your boss does sound mean. Most people have better things to do with their day than blacklist every stretch application that comes down the pike.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Agreed. Your boss was not normal – apply for the job. The worst that will happen is that you’ll never hear from this company about this opportunity.

      2. Rainy days*

        For real. I’ve only blacklisted people for ghosting me during the interview process, or being actively rude. Stretch candidates are a normal part of hiring, and honestly, if you’re not hiring for a super attractive position they may end up be who you hire.

    4. Alex*

      So you’re letting just 1.5 years of experience requested in the job ad keep you from applying? And you have all the other requirements?

      Definitely apply. 3 years, 5 years, who cares? They just make up those numbers anyway. Now, if it was 0 experience vs. 3 years, that’s different….but just missing 18 months? Nah.

  86. Palomides*

    How do I deal with a boss who won’t stop demanding I “answer” for Democratic policies at work? We’re a very small business–the owner and 3 employees. I’m the only person who’s politically active/follows the news, but I try to keep it 100% out of work, for obvious reasons. The problem? I have a Democratic bumper sticker on my car, so he knows how I lean. So he constantly is trying to “own the lib” by demanding I explain what he considers to be huge policy/ideological problems. I used to try to engage and explain my personal feelings on the matter, but that usually just made him mad. So now I just say, “I don’t like to tale about that at work.” but he will continue to bother me, often in front of our clients! He’ll try to bring them in on it and have them agree with him, which he’ll then use to go back to badgering me about it. What, if anything, can I do (besides continue to send out job applications)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can’t do anything, he has you hostage. You have to just keep ignoring him and deflecting.

      He’s doing this in front of clients? In a micro sized company…hopefully he knows them well because that’s a great way to stunt yourself business wise depending on the industry and region. My old boss could bring on his clients because they were all rich good ol boy cronies anyways. But yeah…just yuck. I’m sorry you’ve found yourself in this position and hate that the answer really is “When dealing with antagonistic arrogance, you will never change them.”

    2. Christmas*

      This has happened to me, and I have a favorite go-to response. When someone starts in on me aggressively with some highly generalized question or attack like, “Why do all liberals/Democrats ____?” I often reply with, “I can’t answer that myself, but I’ll put it to the Board of Shadowy Figures when next we meet.” (I usually save this smart-alec response with family members, so this may not work for you.) But generally this has helped me to hint that I cannot speak for everyone, much like how I cannot speak for all women, or all teachers, etc. and therefore should not have vague/generalized questions directed to me. Additionally, it also hits the ridiculous implication that everyone of a political party is all actively conspiring together.

    3. Moray*

      Can you just say “I’ve given up politics” pleasantly?

      “I purged political stuff from my brain and my computer and replaced it with Netflix, and I’m much happier. So I have no idea.”

    4. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      “I’ve actually recently registered as a member of the Anti-Masonic Party, so I’m afraid I just couldn’t answer that. “

    5. Wishing You Well*

      Send out job apps at a faster rate. The company might not be there much longer if clients start objecting to your boss’s behavior.
      Also, don’t engage at all. Start shrugging a lot, ignore political questions entirely and discuss work only.
      I’m sorry you’re in this situation.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      That would be super annoying and he’s just trying to bait and bully you into an argument you can never win. All you can really do is to keep refusing to talk about it.
      “Sorry I’ve given up on politics.”
      “I’ve found it’s best not to discuss religion or politics at work.”
      “Oh Politics are boring, how about X?”
      “I haven’t been keeping up with politics lately, so I cannot offer anything on that.”

      Keep repeating.

      1. ..Kat..*

        After saying one of these great phrases, pivot to, “about that work project…” or something like that. Change the subject to work!

  87. Christmas*

    The Tale of the Terrified Teacher:

    My blood froze the other day as I stood in the front office of the middle school where I teach. I recognized a familiar face walking in… It was a teacher I worked with a year ago at a different school (that I thankfully escaped). She’s our newest hire, and I panicked that she’s now here. I would really appreciate feedback on this. First, I’ll share what I did, and then I’ll give the whole crazy backstory.
    I pulled my AP aside, still shocked, and (admittedly very awkwardly) expressed my concerns.
    I basically said: “I have serious concerns about Mrs. Twitch. Admittedly I have my own issues with anxiety on occasion, but in my experience, Mrs. Twitch can become extremely overwhelmed and even fearful around students. I want her to succeed, and for students to have the best environment possible, so maybe it would be a good idea to check on her a couple of times during the first week of school to see how she’s acclimating.”

    I truly hope that came off OK, because it felt a bit dirty to say something, as well as possibly unprofessional, but I felt it would be truly wrong to not say anything. Here’s why:

    **This woman cannot function around students. She cannot perform the basic functions of her job.** Not only is she scared of most students, she lets them know. We had a paraprofessional that had a set schedule of various tasks and different groups around school, but Mrs. Twitch insisted that she needed the parapro to stay in her room all day every day, since she felt *unable to be alone with students*. She regularly complained of feeling scared or intimidated. For example: If a teen got frustrated about not understanding classwork and not a book on the floor, Mrs. Twitch would rave that he “threw a book at” her and “attacked” her. The student would be removed from her class and given a packet of work. Luckily the staff who permanently acted as her TA was able to step in as a witness if Mrs. Twitch was exaggerating, which was convenient when Mrs. Twitch and I disagreed about something minor and she literally ran to tell our principal that I “yelled at” her and “scared her” (untrue). This was all really difficult because most of our students were incredibly sweet and capable, just occasionally struggled with impulse control. It is really difficult to work with teens, but there was just no middle ground. Every behavior was a labeled a “threat” or “attack.” Everyone was “attacking” her. She constantly had students removed, insisting that some not be permitted to return. Because our school is very small, this meant that some students briefly received *no* instruction in a core subject. She’s terrified of confrontation, and so the more behaviorally problematic students begin to slowly take advantage of it by acting up in her class, playing pranks on her, fighting each other, etc. A few times a month she would just leave in the middle of the day, stating that she was too overwhelmed to continue!! This was highly inconvenient as we were at a small school. (Usually her “TA” just taught class for her, but the TA is not certified or trained in that subject area.)

    Mrs. Twitch changes schools every year. (At our former school, I believe she got wind that administration was preparing to let her go.) I can’t fathom why she continues to pursue a career wherein she constantly feels terrified and threatened, and can’t be around students.

    Later that same day, she approached me and expressed excitement that we would be teaching together again. She even tried to gossip and chat with me. This is bizarre to me, because at our former school, she reported me several times for “threatening“ and “bullying“ her (all wildly unfounded and untrue). I was briefly friendly and polite but repeatedly excuse myself from her attempts at a conversation because I just don’t want to be linked with her. I love my current school and my team, and I don’t want this woman running to tattle on me and stain my name. Most importantly, though, I’m afraid that her behavior is going to be a disservice to our students. I will never forget how it felt when our previous students would confide in me about how frustrated they were with their teacher’s instability, and that they just wanted to learn.

    Thoughts? Should I not have said anything? Did I not speak up enough? Those of you who have seen me post here before know that I am very open to criticism and all points of view, and will accept it gracefully. (I’m already beating myself up simultaneously for having said anything AND for not having said more, so I see valid points for both sides.)

    1. Kiwiii*

      I personally would bring up the issues of her claiming untrue things about you, that way they’ll have a heads up before it starts happening again (because of course it will start happening again)

      1. Christmas*

        That’s a good point. I’ve been totally on edge trying to act very smile-y and sweet around her so she doesn’t have any ammo, but at the same time, trying not to talk with her long. Usually I stand clear on the other side of the room. When school starts in a few weeks, I’ll barely see her. But she always finds a way to start drama. It’s exhausting having to worry about the optics of talking to her, and making sure we are around other people so she can’t run and claim “Ms. Christmas is scaring me!” I’m going to look for an opening to mention this, because I also don’t want my AP to think I’m just talking crap about Mrs. Twitch. Ugh. WHY DID SHE HAVE TO FOLLOW ME TO MY NEW SCHOOL???

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          If there is any documentation from your old school showcasing her complaint, your rebuttal, and the witness statement have that on hand.
          And get that TA’s number…you are going to need it!
          The students come first and you are making it very clear in your post that their well being and education are your main concern so hopefully that came across to the AP.

          1. Christmas*

            Oh dang, Cupcake!! You’re right! My former principal should have a file… they were compiling a detailed file to prepare to fire her. There were concerns about Mrs. Twitch coming off as litigious due to her frequent use of legalese (“I feel threatened! This is an unsafe environment!” etc.) Luckily they never needed to use it because she quit, but it’s worth finding out if they still have it.

            Here’s one particularly because our instance: I described above that she hogged the paraprofessional employee as her personal TA, and it sucked because we other teachers sometimes needed her assistance. One day I was tasked with a large activity that required me working with a huge group of students. I went to Mrs. Twitch and gently asked if I could “borrow“ the TA for a couple of hours. To my shock, she said that was fine, and that she would simply remove two particular students that day and not allow them to come to class since she didn’t feel “safe” having them in her class without the TA. I quickly replied that I would figure something else out because I didn’t want any kids to be deprived of an education on my account. I guess I was agitated, because that was one of the instances when she ran to report me for “yelling“ at her and “fighting” with her. Thank God the TA was right there and saw everything. I’m going to text my other former coworker and get her number ASAP.

    2. Nita*

      As a parent, I’d want the AP to have the whole story. She can ruin the year for her entire class, between the not teaching and the unwarranted disciplinary issues for whoever she’s most scared of. It’s good you said something in the moment, but it might be a good idea to also have a sit-down conversation with the AP. This is so far from normal that I don’t think your comment conveyed just how much watching and hand-holding the new teacher needs.

      1. Christmas*

        Thanks for the parent perspective! I almost did go further when talking to my AP about how she removes kids from class or refuses to teach them if they are “scary” but I was worried that I would sound like a gossiper or just talking crap. Also, it’s possible that Mrs. Twitch has miraculously gotten psychiatric help or medication this past year and will prove me wrong. (I sincerely hope so.) One reason I didn’t mention the frequent removals of students, and her leaving school midday, is that these are the things that administrators will notice first. I’m hoping that my hint will stay in my AP’s mind and she’ll check in on the classroom environment.
        Another thing I did afterward: I went to the Department Head of their subject area, a woman who will be teaching in the classroom next to Mrs. Twitch. I gave her the entire backstory and asked her to keep an ear to the ground. Hopefully, if there ARE problems, it’ll be caught in the first few days of school and then it won’t just be coming from me. In fact, other teachers have already noticed her oddities and have commented “Did you meet Mrs. Twitch? She can’t stop talking about how scared she is!” etc.

        You’re right, though. We owe it to our students, even if I feel like I look weird or rude or whatever. I’m going to draft a script of what I can say to my AP, and look for an opening to talk. It’s possible that Mrs. Twitch’s already-erratic behavior may ensure that she won’t even be in the classroom when school starts next month. This woman should never even have been hired.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think it was great you spoke up about your concerns! You weren’t overstepping, you were giving information that they weren’t aware of prior because of course, that’s not the kind of thing you share in an interview.

      You’re a teacher and in the end, your duties aren’t just teaching your classes. Your duties are to the students as a whole, so when you know something like a subpar or problematic teacher is now coming on, it’s in their best interest to at least let the concerns be heard.

      I know that academia is different and perhaps other teachers will have a “no you should have kept your mouth shut” stance but as a citizen who deeply appreciates the education given to children, I’m glad that there are ones who will look out for the overall educational process and not just watching out for yourself, you know?

      1. Christmas*

        Thank you; this makes me feel better. I ran the situation by my best friend, who happens to be in higher ed, actually. It’s happened exactly like you predicted: She told me, “You should have kept your mouth shut!”

        I felt terrible, but then tried to remember that she doesn’t know what it’s like to work with children who can’t always advocate for themselves. And I’m praying that my AP knows me well enough to know that I wouldn’t bring up concerns about the abilities of another teacher just to be catty.

        Thank you again for the reassurance that I hopefully did the right thing!! I may try to pull my AP aside before school starts and try to elaborate better about how serious this teacher’s previous behavior has been. Right now it seems like she’s telling on her own self pretty well. (Several teachers she’s met have already began loudly discussing how “scared” she is and that she’s “not going to make it.”) Sigh.

        1. cmcinnyc*

          Yeah, academia is different. As a parent who has dealt with a seriously overmatched teacher, thank you for saying something. Parents are on the outside of the system and are often seen as the enemy, frankly. The teacher in my kiddo’s school was eventually edged out but the kids were stuck with a mess of man for way too long.

        2. sacados*

          The important thing is to make sure that your tone stays matter-of-fact, not overly emotional, you’re just relating behaviors/experiences that you had first-hand experience of since it’s useful information for your AP to know. After that, it’s up to them how/if to act.

        3. Belle di Vedremo*

          I’d ask the teachers making those comments to share them with the AP. Surely they’d rather have the administration working on how to handle things now than to watch the kids suffer as she comes apart.
          That plus the file your former school has on her, if they’re willing to share it, should make it clear that this isn’t a anything about you. NB: If the former school isn’t willing to share a file, or put anything in writing, might the leadership there be willing to have a conversation with your leadership?

          How odd that this person wants to continue teaching.

          Thank you for watching out for the students this way, and good luck.

    4. WellRed*

      She was having a negative impact on the students who have the right to learn (even when they are difficult). It was your absolute duty to speak up.

    5. anonagain*

      When I read your statement about her being overwhelmed, I wasn’t sure. I could see a new teacher or a teacher who was going through something, etc. being overwhelmed, but that not being the case anymore later on or in a new school. “Fearful around the students” sounded like anxiety not necessarily related to the students. So, again, my thought was that’s potentially more serious, but also maybe something that she might have gotten over.

      The actual situation, i.e. this teacher being so afraid of the students themselves that she exaggerates and refers them for discipline, is absolutely something I think is worth bringing up. To me that’s different from being overwhelmed or having anxiety that comes up when she’s in class.

      Her actions were hostile to students. She deprived those kids of important educational experiences. It’s especially worrying since referring kids for discipline in schools can ruin their entire lives (think school to prison pipeline). Obviously if a kid has actually done something violent, it’s appropriate to report them. But exaggeration can have a very high cost here.

      I’d say if you felt that you could, it might be worth being clear that your concern is about her actions and the effect they had on students rather than her emotional state. You don’t have to do this now, either. If you see something worrying, you can bring it up again.

      That said, if your AP will be able to read between the lines and know that this is something serious, then what you said could be enough.

      Either way, I’m really glad you said something. Thank you for speaking up. I know it’s not always easy.

      1. Lilith*

        Is this a U.S. public school? Ms Twitch’s actions seen at odds with what I remember about public school teachers in my memory. They just had to deal with the kids! But this was a long time ago so I probably don’t recall correctly.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Competent teachers, yes. I had a teacher in high school who was a bit like this. She was obviously terrified of the “trouble makers*” and could not keep the classroom under control if they decided to start acting up. On several occasions she had to call the vice principal into her class to help her. Once the VP got so mad he threw a table. She did not come back the next year.

          *this was a particular group of students, of mixed ethnicity, gender, etc.

      2. Christmas*

        anonagain:

        You make a great point. You’re right, in mentioning my concern, my vague wording made it sound more like concerns for her personal/inner well-being and probably failed to hint at the impact on students. I’m sure there will be an opening to try to bring this up again. Within 30 minutes of meeting the team, several other teachers were overheard commenting “She’s not going to make it” and “This woman can’t stop talking about how scared she is!” (School hasn’t even started yet! It was just a staff meeting!!)

        Also, I totally agree with you about how discipline issues/labels can follow a student and contribute to the prison pipeline. Even if something doesn’t end up in a kid’s file, even just treating a kid like a criminal or as “bad” can have a seriously negative impact. It makes me so worried thinking of the kids in her care. I’m definitely going to look for an opening to clarify my concerns.

        Thank you again for responding – I so appreciate it!

    6. Lilysparrow*

      Any chance the students Ms Twitch finds “scary” are mostly the same gender, or disproportionately of a certain ethnicity (or just a different ethnicity than hers), or tend to have disabilities or accommodations?

      Because her refusal to teach them and making false accusations could have very, very serious impacts on their lives long-term, far beyond missing a single class here or there. Being labelled as violent or intimidating can follow them and wind up putting them in real danger.

      Thank you for saying something. Please don’t let this go.

      Protecting students IS your business.

      1. Christmas*

        Lilysparrow: Great question! You may be onto something here. The student population at our previous school was predominantly African-American, and the students she labeled as “scary” were all male, except for one (admittedly very large) girl. Both I and Mrs. Twitch are white. We all taught the same students. I had great relationships with most of the kids, so I was frequently shocked by who she had problems with. Several of the boys were truly offended and annoyed that she seemed so fearful around that. I don’t blame them; it’s hurtful. Most of her perceptions of threat or attack were incomprehensible to me, but some of them I could tell stemmed from not understanding the culture, or our kids’ sense of humor.

        My new school (that I’ve been at since) is also predominantly African-American. I love and adore these kids, and it hurts to see how society sometimes treats our black male youth as “scary.” Sigh.

        Now that she has joined me at a *much larger* school than the previous one, she’s going to be surrounded by hundreds of students.

        Your question, which is prompted me to reflect further, makes me think I should reach out to our Dean of Discipline and tip her off as well. You made an excellent point about how school discipline on record can follow a student, and even just verbally labeling a kid as violent or scary can have a huge negative impact on them. Yeah, I’m definitely going to drop a discrete warning to the dean.

      2. Mrs. Krabappel*

        Do you have a union in your school? If so, you should also speak to your union rep. about this. The union can help you and others who might be targets of her accusations. If you hear that she’s struggling or if she starts to turn on the staff, the union can advise and protect you.

  88. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I’m already exhausted from having an opening that needs to be filled and it’s only been a couple of weeks. We extended offers to two people, one of them declined due to having just accepted another position, of course they were our first pick. So we rolled with it and hired the second choice. The second choice was here late the first two days, was warned that they had to be here on time the next day or it wasn’t going to work out [it’s shift work, so time matters]. So on day three, I got an email 10 minutes after they were supposed to start with a story about how they couldn’t make it in because of not having gas. I’m screaming inside because if they said something at the end of the day prior, it would have been something we could work with sadly waiting until after their shift started though was the ultimate deal breaker.

    So now it’s back to the drawing board. Just venting mostly because I’m scheduling more interviews now and conversations with strangers [at this stage, hopefully strangers who turn into our next employee] is exhausting on me. The dating analogies we make make a lot of sense to me at this stage, it’s that courting and “get to know you” phase, and I haaaaaaaate it I haaaaaaate it, I just wanna be colleagues and be cool, man.

    1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      UGH. That really sucks, dude. I hope someone super competent and reliable turns up in the next round. I have to say that referencing dating analogies just made me start imagining apps for hiring that would be similar to Tinder or Bumble… and all of the ways that bad candidates could trainwreck on them.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Yeah, it’s like dating apps without a picture! I sit over here with resumes doing the “nope nope nope, oh god not a chance, oh sure this one looks good!” and then wait with anxiety to see if they respond to the interview request. Only to be rejected with a no-response and crushing feeling, Or worse, they agree to come in for an interview and don’t show.

        At least I’m in my office and not sitting at a table at a coffee shop being dejected AF as my “date” stands me up and I can wallow in self pity with the rest of the crew. “Another no show, eh?”

        Or when you agree to another date [aka you have someone who accepted the offer!] and they don’t show up on Day 1.

        And then the skeletons come out of the closet after someone does start. Even though our other preliminary conversations were great and we had good chemistry but oh darn, that’s all we had because you are unreliable and don’t grasp the details and hard-sigh-life.

    2. Budgie Buddy*

      The employee must have a vehicle with one of those gas tanks that mysteriously empties itself overnight with no warning. My dad has one of those.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        You gotta put gas in it, a lot of folks forget about that and to add it to their budgets I’ve learned. Especially if they are used to sharing a car with someone and didn’t realize the other person didn’t put gas in it :'[

  89. Anon 4 This*

    Well, I screwed up. I applied for a new job a couple of weeks ago; I’m already employed but looking to get off the night shift. The hiring manager emailed me last Friday AM to set up a phone screen, but his email got shunted to a seldom-used folder of my inbox and I didn’t see it until Tuesday evening before I went to work. I wouldn’t have been able to talk to him at any of the times he’d suggested anyway – they were in mid-afternoon on nights I had to work, and that’s like doing a phone screen at 0300 for a daywalker. I replied and apologized for the delay, told him a day I was available to talk, but since I never heard back I guess he’s moved on. :(

    I like my job reasonably well, and I’m good at it, so I’m not too sad about not getting this job, but still… kicking myself for being such an idiot. I knew I should have checked that folder earlier, dammit!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I hate this, I struggle with one department manager who moves on that quickly as well if they don’t hear back from someone. I’m sorry this happened but you did NOT screw up, you did the right thing responding as soon as you saw it. It’s also not your fault that your schedule availability didn’t overlap! That’s just the bad hand dealt in that situation, nobody screwed up. I hope you find something soon!

  90. mark132*

    I have coworker, who is extremely loud. When having a conversation it sometimes feels like they are almost shouting. It is very difficult to concentrate. I don’t work directly with this coworker. I’m trying to figure out how to deal with this.

    1. WerewolfBarMitzvah*

      The man who sits next to me just operates at a higher volume than anyone else. On the phone, talking to me, talking to other people, anything. He can be across the room and it’s like he’s talking right to you. I’ve asked him to keep it down in specific circumstances and he always does, but it never sticks.

      1. WerewolfBarMitzvah*

        Which is to say, I’m commenting to follow the thread! Does this come up as a frequent distraction or is it just when they’re talking right to you?

        1. mark132*

          it’s fortunately infrequent, this coworker mostly works somewhere else. She is never talking directly to me rather to other people on her team. I actually don’t know her personally.

          1. Auntie Social*

            Rush over and ask if she’s okay—you heard her shouting, figured something was really wrong! (Look terribly concerned all the while). When you find out that was just her talking, ask “how do we adjust your volume, then, because I heard you all the way back to my desk??”

              1. valentine*

                Walk over and ask her to lower her voice because you can hear her all the way over at your desk.

        2. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

          same. I have a few coworkers who just operate loud – I doubt they realize how disruptive it can be.

    2. Christmas*

      Mark132:
      I am naturally and extremely loud talker, and here are a few cues that people use with me that I find very helpful. (Despite what some may think, I really do want to modulate my volume appropriately!) anything that makes me self-conscious or notice my surroundings. Anytime someone in speaking with even slightly glances around the room or left and right, I immediately lower my voice. Additionally, even though I’m the loud one, the person who is speaking to me will lower their voice slightly quieter/lower than they already were. I find myself automatically matching them! No feelings are hurt; no awkward conversations. Hope this is helpful?

      1. mark132*

        I’ve actually done something similar. I’ll stand up and look at the person. I’m trying to not be intimidating or anything like that. And sometimes it works. Maybe I just need to popup and basically “silently ask” for a bit quieter.

        1. Chocolate Teapot*

          So you have a Fishwife too?

          Admittedly our office Fishwife has quietened down a bit since a new person arrived who was seconded from Head Office. Mind you, I had my earphones in today as I was listening to a meeting recording and she had somebody sitting next to her going through a file.

  91. LessNosy*

    I’ve been conducting a job search (getting ready to ramp it up!) due to being overworked and over stressed at my current position because we just simply don’t have enough people. I’m ramping my search up because I’ve had multiple panic attacks this week and when I told my boss I was working 12 hour days most days, she said “okay.”

    I had been interviewed for a new position at a Big Company I would love to work for. I went through 2 phone interviews and the senior recruiter said she would definitely recommend me to the hiring manager. Unfortunately the hiring manager didn’t feel I had enough of the skillset he wanted (which I totally respect), so I am not moving forward. Apparently, the senior recruiter believed in me SO MUCH that she went to bat for me and actually argued about it! She and the hiring manager are passing my resume around to other business units because they think I’d be a great fit at Big Company. Yay! She also said if I apply to anything on their website to email her.

    I feel good about this rejection and I’m definitely going to keep applying for jobs at this company… fingers crossed I get out of Super Stress Central soon!!

    2. Easily Amused*

      I recommend that you tell your boss this: “This schedule of 12 hour days is not sustainable. In a normal work day, I can get X and Y done but not C,D,E and F. How would you like me to prioritize that work and what is the plan for getting this other work done?” This sounds like a script Allison has used many times. Your manager is not pushing for change because she’s not feeling the pain (you’ve taken it upon yourself). It’s the manager’s problem to solve (hire more people, bring in reinforcements from another department, etc). Push the problem back where it belongs. And I hope Big Company comes through with a great opportunity soon!

  92. Flower*

    This isn’t a question, but I want people to celebrate with me (work related, I promise) because I am in a celebrating mood.

    I passed my qualifying exam! Pending some paperwork, I’ve advanced to candidacy! I’m a PhD candidate! I even get a tiny raise out of it!

    This was actually my second time because the first time did not go very well (in part because some then untreated mental health issues were interfering with my prep), but wow is there a weight off my chest now.

    3. curly sue*

      Congratulations!!! This is a big deal and you should be incredibly proud of yourself. I would rather set myself on fire during childbirth than go through comps again, and now you never have to worry about them again!

      Are you doing something lovely for yourself tonight?

      1. Flower*

        Yeah, my fiance and I went out to a place we’ve been meaning to make it for a year! Had a great evening. :)

    2. Contracts Killer*

      You got this! You’re amazing, walk into it just trying to figure out if they are an amazing fit for YOU.

  94. WerewolfBarMitzvah*

    What do you think about taking shoes off at work? I don’t care if it’s at your desk (meaning they go back on if you’re getting up) and as long as you’re not barefoot. Is this something that bothers anyone?

    1. HailRobonia*

      I agree; my shoes get uncomfortable and I slip them off sometimes… I get work shoes that are not laced up for just this reason (early in my career I took my shoes off and of course five minutes later the department head came over needing me to assist and I had to put my shoes back on. I felt so awkward, but I don’t think he really cared).

    2. Catsaber*

      I see no problem as long as you are wearing them in common areas. Obviously if there’s a safety/hygiene reason they need to stay on, keep them on, but what you’re describing sounds totally fine.

    3. Nessun*

      Zero issue with shoes off under a desk (and I’m looking at someone across the office who just slipped their sandals off and is barefoot). We did judge a previous coworker who would walk around the office with her shoes off, but that was more from a “the floors are GROSS, why would you do that” standpoint – but as far as taking them off at your desk? You do you.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      In your office, whatever. I do it all the time but yeah, I’m not walking to the breakroom or kitchen or other person’s office without putting them back on!

    5. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      TBH shoes on or off doesn’t bother me at all. I get places that want to have a rule about it for Safety Reasons (read: liability reasons) but I have walked around workplaces barefoot before, and I certainly don’t think it’s weird or gross for people to walk around with socks on. BUT, I also recognize that I’m in the minority here and everyone else is probably glad that I work from home lol

      1. ...*

        Nope wouldn’t bother me at all as long as they don’t smell. Feet deserve comfort you only live once after all!!

      2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Socks would give me pause but not that much. Bare feet I would inwardly flinch. I wouldn’t say anything in either case but whenever I see people walking around barefoot I immediately imagine stepping on something sharp and/or getting my feet dirty.

        I used to have a colleague who walked around barefoot and his feet would be black with dirt part way through the day. It was revolting.

    6. noahwynn*

      Doesn’t bother me, assuming there’s no smell. It does look weird if people walk around barefoot though.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If I can’t tell, I don’t care. I find that’s a good rule of thumb for a lot of things. As a live in landlord, that’s half my rule on caged pets – maximum of four legs, and otherwise, if I can’t tell it’s in the house (smell it, hear it, find it outside of your room) I don’t care. (No minimum. The housemate has a fancy ball python. He assures me it won’t get large enough to eat the cats. I ask him if he’s sure, because they’re really annoying.)

    8. Llellayena*

      In general doesn’t bother me, it’s not my feet. But I do tend to have a brief mental reaction of “um…STAPLES!” whenever I see bare feet around the office. And we have the super big staples that go through 60-90 sheets at once!

    9. sum of two normal distributions*

      I have a coworker that has what are essentially house slippers to walk around our floor. She only puts on her “work” shoes when leaving our floor (usually to get lunch from the cafeteria or to go to a meeting). None of us care since it doesn’t effect our ability to work and her feet aren’t stinky. She’s happier for it as well!

  95. Crispy, But Not Burned Yet*

    I finished grad school in January. My last term, all of my chronic conditions flared up, plus a brand new one! I had far too many ER visits. I still have the same job I had throughout my program, by my choice. I love my job! However, we have been going through a major transition at work, which is finally wrapping up this month.

    I was far more burned out than I realized, but I did take a week long vacation earlier this month, which helped a lot. However, I’m still pretty crispy. I’m allowed to WFH one day a week, which also helps.

    I have heard that it takes a while to recuperate from grad school. I don’t have a lot of vacation time left this year, due to my chronic conditions. I’ve also used up all my sick leave and personal days.

    Any suggestions for grappling with post grad school burn out and chronic illnesses with fatigue as a major component?

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      If you can get to bed earlier, it may help with your fatigue. Also ask for a flex schedule in addition to your one work from home day. If you could push back your start time by an hour to get an extra hour’s worth of rest, maybe that might help?

      1. Crispy, But Not Burned Yet*

        I’m actually going to bed at 6 pm every night and sleeping most of the weekend. I would flex my start time, but I start fading around 3:30. I am trying to figure out if I can afford to go part time for a while.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          If you can swing that financially, that sounds like a good plan, at least for six months. It sounds like you had a lot going on mentally and you need a true break.

  96. remote working??*

    Graduated college in May, currently at a temp position and looking for a new position within the next month. I had a phone interview this past week and now will have an in-person interview on Tuesday for a great position. It’s remote, but I travel to the office one day a week to meet with the team.

    My dad says he thinks this is a not-so-great idea. He says I need to be out “making connections” with people. I reminded him I would be meeting with my team one day a week and he thinks that’s not enough … thoughts?

    I think I will still be able to form good connections with my coworkers and I am sure there will be a lot of communication involved. I could also join networking groups/something similar if I think that’s necessary.

    1. WerewolfBarMitzvah*

      I think this can go in the “your parents don’t understand today’s employment culture” pile. There’s lots to consider about if remote work is right for you outside of “making connections,” but if you feel good about that and if the position otherwise feels like a great fit for for you, I don’t think that’s a dealbreaker.

      1. remote working??*

        I was thinking about the generational gap as well. I thought, Ok, there are so many people remotely working and seem to be doing all right, it can’t be as dire as he’s making it out to be!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          It’s not. I work from home full time, as does my grandboss and one of my coworkers – meanwhile, our US headquarters are in a totally different state from where all three of us live. My manager doesn’t even live in this country! We all manage to do just find with regular team calls and the occasional team trip. You’ll be fine.

      2. HailRobonia*

        I agree. Connections are made online so often these days. In my last job search I requested a recommendation from someone who I saw face-to-face at most twice a year but had frequent communication with by email, etc. and she gave a glowing recommendation (I know this because she was very excited that I was moving on with my career and let me know).

        Also, thanks a lot WerewolfBarMitzvah, now I have that song stuck in my head.

      3. June*

        His advice on OP needing to be “out making connections” sounds a lot like the “you need to hand in your resume in person” advice they like to give out when that’s not true anymore. They have this mindset that if it’s not done in face to face interactions, it doesn’t count.

    2. fposte*

      You’re right, Dad’s wrong. It would be especially foolish for a new grad to pass on a “great position” because it’s mostly remote.

      It’s smart for you to plan ways of keeping your connections up, but honestly that would be true even if you were in-person the whole time too.

    3. Catsaber*

      1. Once a week in-person with the rest of the week telecommuting sounds like a dream, and I think it will be plenty of time for forming work relationships. I used to work 2 days in-person, 3 at home, and did just fine. Of course it depends on the company, but many, many, MANY companies have remote workers in various capacities. It’s just becoming the norm. As is using chat software at work, even if you’re in person, in order to make things more efficient.

      2. If you have the energy/desire to address his concerns, you could ask him to explain what he means by “making connections” and what he is worried about if you aren’t in the office full-time. I suspect he means something like “visible for promotions/advancement.” And that can be true sometimes, but if you do great work, it will really speak for itself. Also being reliably available when you are telecommuting makes a big difference.

      I say go for it and good luck!

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I agree that your Dad is probably not totally correct, but I also don’t think he’s totally wrong. There are things about being around people in your field all day, especially when you are a new grad, that you learn through observation. Those things maybe harder to pick up when you’re working remote as your first job out of school. I wouldn’t say this if you have five years under your belt, but since you’re new to the professional world, you’ll need to be ever more hyper aware and watching how people function. There’s a ton of unspoken things that happen in an office that you will miss out on if you only come on one day a week. Not to say you should turn down the job offer over it, but I think your Dad maybe concerned about your ability to get the kind of mentor-ship that is often very useful and happens organically through exposure to people day in and day out.

      2. Not Me*

        Agree with this. I see a lot of new to the workforce employees being managed remotely or working remotely and it just isn’t the best introduction to the workforce. You miss a lot of learning opportunities when you’re not in an office.

        1. Not Me*

          I should say, when you’re not in an office or in a work-space with your peers. Doesn’t have to be a traditional office of course.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Same. I was thinking about this from my perspective and totally forgot that OP doesn’t have my nearly nine years of professional work experience to fall back on. Being very new to the workforce does have a lot of challenges that would be better served in an office environment at least for the first year.

            1. fposte*

              I was also really excited for her getting an offer for a great job as a recent grad! That’s excellent, and I was a little annoyed that Dad might be harshing her buzz.

              1. remote working??*

                Aw, thanks! It may have slightly harshed the buzz but I know he was just trying to offer his input, and he did so in a kind way. Luckily, both of my parents have generally offered very sound job advice.

                1. AnotherLibrarian*

                  Even with much more experience under my belt, every time I get a new job offer my Dad ends up being hyper-critical. Its taken me years to realize, he’s just always going to be a bit worried about me and when I finally accept the job, he flips to being completely supportive. So, he’s probably just trying to look out for you.

              2. Fortitude Jones*

                I know! That was amazing – lord knows I did not have that kind of luck when I was a fresh grad, lol.

      3. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes, this would be my concern, not the thing about connections. It’s that as a new grad you’ll miss out on a lot of learning about how things get done that usually happens in your first couple of years of work.

    5. Kiwiii*

      You don’t necessarily need to be “making connections” with people as a goal in any way, because the point of that (assuming he means networking) is for them to help move you forward in a career anyway. The job sounds great, just make sure you’re interacting with non-work people socially as well, since you won’t be getting most of the social parts of work from working remotely.

    6. Colette*

      I wouldn’t be concerned about making connections. I would, however, give some serious thought to how you’ll develop good work practices. It’s easy to get distracted by life when you’re at home, and if you haven’t had a ton of in-office experience, you may need to be diligent about setting work hours and making sure you are working when you’re supposed to be (and getting stuff done – i.e. proactively getting help when you need it).

      1. remote working??*

        I’m glad people have brought up this point, it’s something I will really need to consider. Thanks for your input!

    7. Gilmore67*

      I don’t think Dad is wrong. I don’t think you are wrong. I do agree though with your Dad getting in-office experiences, connections and so on is a good thing. Once a week is not going to give you that much time as it would in a in office job. The small amount of time you have been temping isn’t a lot of time either to experience what it is like in an office culture.

      Working with people in an office on a daily basis is useful in many ways especially being newer to the working world and you can’t get those experiences once a week or via Emails or phone.

      I am not saying not to take that job. If you think it is a good job for you go for it.

      I just don’t think that Dad is wrong for the general idea of thinking that being in an office is a bad idea.

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      Wow…that wouldn’t be my concern with a remote job right out of college. I think you learn at lot of office norms at the beginning that remote work won’t grant you which could potentially be a disservice later down the road.
      However! The temp work and 1-day/per week should help with that. I would maybe try to set a firm schedule at the beginning to help keep some bad habits from forming.
      For the record, I’m projecting my newly grad self onto your situation and remote work would have been a very bad idea for me back then. All of my pre-graduation jobs were the exact opposite of office work and really did not translate well. The leeway I got by being a new grad was the only thing that kept me from being fired (or put on a PIP) in the first 6 months.

      1. remote working??*

        Thanks for your input! While I know I can’t say that I’m super experienced in an office setting (I know I have so much to learn!), I’ve had four internships that have given me a good foundation, and good feedback from managers. The place I’m currently temping at is actually where I interned last summer, so it was easier for me to adjust back into the culture when I first started the temp work — it feels like I kind of had a head start, if that makes sense. I’d also like to think I’m fairly mature and responsible for a 22-year-old :)

  97. Tabby Baltimore*

    Seen on the back of a van on a commuter artery in the D.C.-Metro area yesterday afternoon: Lama Painting & Drywall Co., Inc. Just had to share.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Those have to be some talented llamas if they can drywall. Hard to tape when you have hooves. . . .

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Well, the lamas can drywall just fine, it’s the llamas that have hooves. The lamas just wear robes and meditate a lot.

  98. Seeking Second Childhood*

    A bit of a ramble here as I think through a sticky situation.
    The head of my department just gave noticed — it was inevitable because she was covering her own unreplaced staff position as well as serving as department manager. She was the only salaried person in my department so the impossible man-hour projects fell onto her. Our staff levels have been cut repeatedly for over 10 years, with entire product lines reassigned to us without additional people. (If you include the people formerly doing work in other divisions, we’ve gone from 13 to 7 plus one dotted-line resource, at the same time that new products have been added, few formally discontinued, and time-consuming new regulatory requirements have been implemented.)
    She wasn’t not the only person with an active job search…and I’ve started the small steps myself.
    So here’s the thing… I’m the most senior person in the department. When the previous manager retired, they asked me to apply and I said no, because I saw all the red flags that have led to the current person leaving. If they ask me again, I’m debating if I should apply even though I wouldn’t want the position as it has developed. I could tell them about all the systemic problems that would need to be addressed — but I don’t know if I could trust the organization to fix those things if they agree to. Offhand the workload’s too high, we’re constantly overlooked early in the project planning cycle, we don’t have the authority to turn down impossible deadlines set by people outside the department, and staff members are frequently contacted by people outside the department to do other work. That’s before you get to low percentile payscale PLUS discontinued telecommute.
    In other words I’d take the interview…and PLAN to turn down any potential offer. How crazy is that? I’m already taking steps towards looking for something closer to home with better organized management. And I’m at the top level of technical title that I could have here. Would I be nuts to try that?
    What other suggestions are there besides running away from the hive of bees?

    1. Ali G*

      I would take the job and still keep looking. If this is a promotion you can use it to get a higher level job elsewhere where the position is actually properly supported.

    2. Mazzy*

      Can you talk up how great the current MGR is and how you can’t fill their shoes because (and then give examples of great things they did that you don’t feel you’re capable of replicating – working 70 hours in one week, or whatever it is).

    3. ..Kat..*

      If you don’t want the job, please don’t interview for it. I think it will make you look bad for wasting their time. And, if you are unable to say no to interviewing for a job you do not want, how will you be able to say no if they give you a job offer?

  99. Menstrual cramps question*

    What’s the best way to work around my horrible menstrual cramps wrt work? I know approximately when it’s going to happen in order to plan to not have meetings/work from home those days, but it’s weird to tell people “I’m going to be sick that day” or whatever. Especially when menstrual cramps tend not to be taken seriously by most people. (Yes, I’ve seen multiple doctors about this, and unfortunately, being incapacitated 1-3 days a month is about as good as it gets for me.)

    1. fposte*

      What do you mean by work around? Do you mean just language to explain? If so, I think “flare of a chronic health problem” covers it just fine. Some people will do the math, some won’t. If intermitten FMLA would be useful in there do consider it; otherwise, if your manager is cool with remote work and meetings scheduled other days, you don’t owe people more explanation than that, and you can say “Oh, it’s so boring for me to talk about and I don’t like to get into it” for anybody who pushes beyond the first explanation.

    2. CheeryO*

      Is teleworking common enough that you can just tell coworkers that you’ll be working from home, with no explanation? If not, I think this is a situation where a white lie is permissible. You could also go with something vaguely health-related (“Oh, just a routine health thing that keeps me home – nothing to worry about.”) I probably wouldn’t try to explain about the cramps – it’s just way too likely that they won’t understand.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I work from home full time now, so it’s kind of a moot point, but I had terrible, awful cramps this morning. If I were still commuting, I absolutely would have called in and given no explanation beyond, “I’m not feeling well and will be working from home today.” If pressed? Minor headache.

      However, I don’t think I would “plan” to be sick, if that’s what you’re asking. Meaning, if someone wants to schedule a meeting and you’re pretty sure you’ll be out for cramps when the time comes, you either a) call in sick the day of the meeting and reschedule, or b) say, “That’s not a great day for me, can we do Tuesday instead?” No one needs to know WHY it’s not a great day, unless they know your entire work schedule.

    4. Anon for now*

      I’m so sorry you are dealing with that. It is hard when “cramps” means different things to different people. I have endometriosis and was incapacitated for two days every month for years before I got on a form a birth control that got rid of my period. I generally said that I had a chronic heath condition flaring up. As for avoiding meetings on those days, I would generally just say that that day doesn’t work for me and suggest another without giving details and people usually didn’t press. I did tell my boss what was going on so that she knew why I was sick every month. If someone really pushed I would still schedule something on that day and then reschedule when I was out sick. I wouldn’t have done that if I was absolutely sure which days it would be, but I could be off by a few days in my estimation so there was a chance I could make the meeting.

  100. AnonAnn*

    Warning: Gross TMI ahead!

    I am looking for advice from those who have any ‘digestive’ issues. (Crohns, IBS-D, etc.) I am having some issues and they are getting worse. :( I do have hemorrhoids but I don’t think it’s related. I had to leave work twice in the last several weeks but that is not sustainable. Any recommendations? I will be making an appointment with the doctor but this is not easy to talk about. And it is not really diarrhea, more like I feel like I need to go and just … umm, go. Like, right then and there. Help please?

    1. bunniferous*

      Definitely visit the doctor! That said, while you are waiting on your appointment, all I can recommend is fiber and probiotics. For me probiotics are the difference between getting to go somewhere first thing in the morning and having to….go…..

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, my gastroenterologist prescribed me a low dose medicine that was originally used to treat depression and told me to eat an Activia once a day for the probiotics. After about a week, it really did stop my bowels from emptying right away all day long. I’m now taking probiotic gummies (two a day) and still on the meds just in case, but I also found a full time remote job so that in the event my condition ever worsens, I’m home and close to my bathroom, so it’s much easier to deal with and I can work around my illness’s schedule.

    2. fposte*

      First, make an appointment with the doctor ASAP.

      Second, I’m guessing your manager already knows that you had to leave. Assuming she’s not terrible, catch her for a moment and say “I’m having health problems, I’ve got a doctor’s appointment coming, and I may have to leave quickly again. If there’s anything I could be doing in the mean time to minimize the effects, please let me know, but hopefully it will be resolved soon.”

      If the stool is loose, Imodium might be helpful in the mean time, but I wouldn’t take it otherwise.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, you could try a low FODMAP diet in the meantime. Your doctor may suggest that anyway as a thing to try.

    3. DukeOfPearl*

      I promise your doctor has talked about (and seen) worse stuff this week!! You deserve to take care of yourself. This is one of though tough medical conditions that’s invisible but debilitating!!

    4. Environmental Compliance*

      Echoing all the above….but also wanted to flag that sometimes other conditions can cause similar symptoms. I had a huge amount of digestive issues (including both go-right-now and constipation/diarrhea, it was fun) that went on for far too long until a gyne finally diagnosed me with endometriosis. Had surgery to remove the growths – all digestive issues also went away.

      Seriously though, your doctor has heard much, much worse. It’s better to lay it all out there for the Dr and get that treatment for relief rather than hold it in (pun intended) and continue to suffer.

    5. pcake*

      Warning – TMI reply!

      First off, my hemorrhoids went away when I started using a bidet and using TP only for light drying. But they got better when I started using lotion TP.

      I have several digestive issues, and hopefully you’ll be luckier than I was. I pretty much had to figure out my problems on my own – my various doctors have been stumped or seemed to throw random diagnoses at me that other doctors disagreed with. But I figured a lot of it out because most were food-triggered problems.

      I got lucky with the worst one – my then-boyfriend observed that every time I had this recurring truly agonizing pain (I ended up in the hospital overnight where they wanted to do exploratory surgery), I had eaten something made with wheat. I can eat gluten, but turned out to be highly sensitive to modern wheat. After I stopped eating it, the pain along with other symptoms, never came back.

      But your issues sound like a couple of mine that were worse together. I have lactose intolerance and IBS. It took me a long time to figure out the lactose intolerance as a doctor originally decided I had diverticulitis (I didn’t), and another diagnosed another incorrect problem. After a while, I noticed that the feeling like I had to go to the bathroom and other problems didn’t occur on days where I had no dairy, and after I figured out the problem, I found that Lactaid solved it, although I’d often have to take 3 tablets to get through ice cream with a glass of milk. And there are things you can do if it’s IBS; my son’s GF was told to give up processed grains – no more white bread, white flour, etc – and that changed her life. We just have to read labels to make sure each food isn’t partly white flour but is 100% while grain.

      I know several people who changed their lives by removing one food from their diet and seeing how things went.
      In most cases, it wouldn’t change anything, but in each of their cases – as in mine with wheat – there would be a food they removed, and voila – their symptoms went away. And the cool thing about doing this, starting with foods commonly known to cause digestive issues, is that it’s something you can try while waiting to see the doctor and costs nothing to try.

      Good luck!

    6. President Porpoise*

      My life. :)

      Your hemorrhoids are almost certainly related. Get Preparation H with Lidocaine – it helps.

      I recommend that you start a food diary. One really helped me isolate the foods that caused “do not pass Go or collect $100” emergency bathroom trips – raw apples, watermelon, pears (and other fruits that have that grainy sugary thing going on), miso, certain restaurants (particularly the “lighter fare” sections of the menu). Blacklist those things, if applicable.

      Also see a doctor, and have them refer you to a GI specialist, if this is a chronic issue. Note that some digestion bugs can last for several months, so you might just get over it. You’ll probably have to do a stool sample and some other tests, and they may want to get a visual look at your intestines, so be prepared. I recommend tracking your intake first, so you can give them meaningful data to look at.

      There are medications that you can take, and it’s better to go in early while the issue is still relatively minor than to do what my friend did, and discover she had Crohns, at the same time she found out a chunk of intestine had died and needed to be removed.

      Good luck, friend.

    7. KoiFeeder*

      I made a spreadsheet of what I’ve eaten and if/what symptoms I experienced afterwards. Not only is it helpful to illustrate to the doctor what’s going on, it can help narrow things down. Definitely tell the doctor that this is impacting your ability to function at work, and be pretty specific about how. Preparation H with lidocaine and a doughnut pillow will help with the hemorrhoids. My issue is decidedly uncommon, so I can’t give you food or dietary advice (as my lovely rheumatologist said, she was expecting horses when she heard hoofbeats but instead she found wildebeests), but I’ll be wishing you luck!

  101. Environmental Compliance*

    In exciting news:

    For the first time this year, and because of the incredible improvements the facility has made to process, maintenance, equipment, etc….. we have made a substantial amount of money this month. Not only that, we have surpassed production records (and almost profits!) from the past 35 years. This is even more incredible given that the price of our inputs to the process have nearly doubled in price (we are vaguely agriculturally based). WOOOO!

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      In unrelated news…. this marks the 3rd time today that the H&S manager has come over to ask me about a process chemical. Buddy, you are the keeper of the SDSes, how about you go check on what the hazards of that chemical rather than ask me?

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Congratulations!

        Also, SDSes…you’re giving me (fond?) flashbacks to my days working in a lab.

  102. I'm A Little Teapot*

    The newish (6 weeks) mgmt person in my department is on vacation. It’s both funny and sad that as far as I can tell, every single non-management person in the department is happy that she’s out. I think it goes to show how much she’s at least annoyed everyone. Even the people who don’t work with her are annoyed by her. This is all because of the approach she’s taken to projects, people, etc.

  103. Entry Level Blues*

    How do you keep track of which cover letters/resumes you’ve sent to job postings? Since it’s best to customize each cover letter and resume for every posting (based from what I can tell after reading through Alison’s responses), how can you remember that resume #57 is for the Admin Assistant position at ABC while resume #5 is for that super old Project Assistant posting from 4 months ago?

    My current system is to make and label each documents folder on my computer with the date of applying + name of the position + company while the inside contents are only named as EntryLevelBlues_Resume and EntryLevelBlues_CoverLetter. So that when I look at the document folder name I can kind of remember that I used the contents for this specific position.

    But I’d appreciate any advice! My biggest worry is that I’ll be called to an interview and then print out and hand the interviewer the “wrong” resume.

      1. Entry Level Blues*

        But what would you put on the Excel log? Would you do something like you label each document folder a certain number/code and then write that in a column in the Excel log?

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          whatever makes sense for your naming conventions/folder structure. just as long as you don’t have to actually remember all of it, that’ll work.

    2. LessNosy*

      I name mine with the company name + position, but I like your way better! It’s way less cluttered than the way I do it :) As long as your folders are named clearly, which it seems like they are, I think you’re fine. But you could go ahead and put _JobTitle at the end of everything too, if you want extra security.

      1. Entry Level Blues*

        Oh the part about adding “_JobTitle” at the end of the resume/cover letter name is a good tip – I should definitely use it. I sometimes get a bit lazy and use the same cover letter and resume for jobs that are super common (it helps that I’m entry level) so I was wondering if there were options to make it be a bit less strict haha.

    3. Colette*

      I create a folder for each company, then (if I’ve applied for more than one position with them) a folder for the specific job. In that folder, I store the posting, the resume I applied with, and my cover letter.

      1. Entry Level Blues*

        That’s a great way of going at it! For the posting, do you just take a quick screenshot? I should start trying that out.

        1. Colette*

          A screenshot, or copy the text on the screen to a text doc (which is a pain, but means that I have it if I get an interview).

    4. Oaktree*

      I give them each an individual filename like “resume-job title-myname.pdf” and they all live in google docs.

    5. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I keep the application materials in a folder on my computer that’s dated.
      Folder Name: 2019-07 Job Title
      Inside it: That Girl’s Resume, That Girl’s Cover Letter, the PDFs for upload for both, and a copy of the job number and description.

      So the biggest problem I’ve had with the separate folder method is that a lot of software defaults to the last folder you routed something to with that software. So before you upload or download anything, you have to *triple check* that the upload button is pointed to the correct folder. Especially if you’ve applied to multiple jobs at the same employer or different employers who use the same applicant tracking software.

    6. Spreadsheets and Books*

      When I job search, I use a spreadsheet to stay organized (the same one for all searches with each year on its own tab to easily cross-reference previous searches) and enter the date I applied, the company, the position, how I applied (website, LinkedIn, etc), any log-in information that I’d need to check status, and then a notes column. I use color coding and formatting to indicate where I am in the process and note the dates of contact, interviews, etc, in additional columns.

      If I use things like cover letters, I save them with the company name in the title in a corresponding job search folder. I rarely customize my resume as most jobs in my field are more alike than different, but if I do, I’ll save a copy of that, too.

      1. Entry Level Blues*

        The description of your spreadsheet sounds amazing! I love making spreadsheets and have been using a decent one for my job search but reading about yours makes me super pumped up to really upgrade it. If only I could be hired to make spreadsheets and organize things…

        For your color coding, is it something like blue = interview date set, orange = interview done, waiting for response, etc? Also how many columns do you end up with? I only have 7 columns right now (date, job title/ref #, company, current status, contact info, notes, link) but I’d like to add more. Sorry this ended up more about your spreadsheet but I love… spreadsheets…

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          “If only I could be hired to make spreadsheets and organize things…”

          That’s basically my job*. You can have it when I leave ;)

          *Look for jobs involving analytics/information management; I work at a non-profit and I find they tend to be less sophisticated in their platforms, so spreadsheets are the go-to for being flexible.

          1. Entry Level Blues*

            Unfortunately, I don’t have any substantial background or prior experiences with information management/spreadsheets :( The most I’ve ever gotten to do was data entry and light analysis since no one seems to want to hire me for an entry analytics/management job unless I either have a business degree or 5+ years of experience.

            1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

              That is pretty common. You may be able to come into it sideways with a smaller organization. That’s how I’ve gotten to where I am. I have the minor advantage of having a science background, but most of what I know I learned on the job.

              I started in my current organization as a general entry-level person, on the track to (lowercase) project management (the only non-admin track).

              Over the first 1.5 years, I saw the need for more data expertise, demonstrated some proficiency (i.e. taught myself via Internet tutorials and experimentation, leading to solutions), and slowly took on more of that work, convinced them to create a data-centric role and to promote me to that role. It took over five years, but it can be done!

    7. Lilysparrow*

      I keep resumes & coverletters together in one big folder and put the company name in the filename, something like:

      L. Sparrow Resume – Company.doc

      or

      Coverletter Company – LSparrow.doc

    8. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I use the folder hierarchy method, but really since I usually apply via email that is the main way that I keep things straight. If I get a response from Llama Heritage it is usually either a reply in an email chain or I just search my sent mail. But my industry rarely uses online applications. If I do have one I print it to pdf and file it under the employer name.

  104. Emmie*

    I can understand all of those emotions. New managers may be tasked with improving a team’s processes, or efficiency. I recommend you channel your energy into great ideas for improving your workflow, and your team’s. Good luck!

  105. Argye*

    Well, I got the official offer from the HBCU school, and it turned out to be $18K less than I’m making now, and they wouldn’t cover moving costs, despite wanting me there on Aug. 1 – a move of 800 miles. When I spoke to the Provost, I agreed to look at the offer letter, which he said would be forthcoming from HR. It hasn’t arrived yet.

    However, in the interim, I’ve decided that I just can’t. I’ll spend the fall semester Adjuncting and trying to figure out what to do next. I contacted people at the Government agency I used to work at and have at least one nibble.

    The problem? I got a WELCOME! email from the Chair of the Department saying that the Provost told her that I was accepting the job. I’m not, and I need to clear that up ASAP. I don’t have the offer letter from HR yet, I don’t really want to call the Provost and say, actually, it’s a no. It feels wrong to email the Chair back and say no, but she needs to be able to schedule teaching coverage.

    I feel guilty for not letting them know ASAP, but they’re being very slow to get me an offer letter that I can then respectfully decline.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, that sounds messier than necessary. I’m glad the decision was at least clear for you.

      1. Argye*

        It wasn’t. There were several sleepless nights. I’m still wondering if I’m being an idiot. But, my gut was screaming “NO!! I DON’T WANNAAAAAA!” (my gut has the vocabulary of a 3-year-old).

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Then you’re not being an idiot. Your instincts are telling you it’s the wrong move for a reason – listen.

    2. BRR*

      I think you can reply and say you haven’t accepted yet because you haven’t received an offer letter to review or say while waiting for your offer letter to review you decided this wasn’t the right fit.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think you could at least tell the Chair “thank you, but I haven’t accepted the job.” That doesn’t seem wrong. And since you’ve already decided the answer is no, you may as well tell the Provost. You can politely say that, given the salary and the lack of assistance with moving expenses, you are unable to accept the job, no matter what else might be included in the as yet unseen offer letter. Explain that you know they need to get someone on board ASAP and you didn’t want to make them wait.

    4. Anon for now*

      If you already know that you won’t take it I don’t think you need to wait to look at the offer letter. Just email the provost and say that you have thought about it and you cannot accept the job due to the salary cut and tight time frame.

  106. Suspicious Boss*

    My boss thinks that I’m job hunting (I am) and it’s almost comical but also a little stressful! She is aware of all the turnover happening and aware that her own team has a lot of issues, but she has told me that “we’re like family, so we have a core group of people who stick it out.” None of this was mentioned in the interview when asked! Of course, there was also no Glassdoor or mutuals I knew to give me a scoop, but…now I know.

    So I’ve been applying really slowly, to try and be smart about not ending up in the same place next time.

    But man! Yesterday, I said I had a phone call with a potential dog sitter (very true) and she had to ask a million details about it. Who is it? What time? How long will the call be? Can you show me the dog sitter? This is on my day off too.

    Followed up with a text message after the proposed dog sitter call with “How was the call? What did they say?”

    Normally I’d be like… well, this is just overly involved boss here. But she’s been going around telling colleagues how stressed she would be if I left, how she would retire if I quit, how absolutely hellish it would be if I quit as soon as the last person. Last week she asked how long I planned to stay in the job. I said, well my fiancé is in grad school for another 5 years? And she was so relieved.

    But literally any thing I do related to phone calls or requesting time off for a couple of hours, she questions it constantly, and I feel like she thinks I’m trying to leave (again, I am, but have not even HINTED at thinking or acting that way at work. I am chipper and peppy and get things done.)

    Is there anything I can do to lessen the questions and grilling in this situation?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      She’s abusive. This is a manipulation tactic and she’s turning screws because she knows your stress points.

      I would keep it vague as possible and just respond with “I really don’t want to discuss this with you any further, I need to get back to work.” or “I need to go” if it’s just something on your off-time. Also feel free to inore her texts that don’t pertain to your job. If she pushes just say that you got tied up doing something else and didn’t get around to responding. As long as you’re responding, she’ll keep needling.

      Also good. I hope she does retire after you leave because wow she’s a mess.

    2. Christmas*

      Re: Suspicious Boss:

      It definitely sounds like she’s paranoid that every call/appointment you take is job-hunt-related, and she is trying to “get in front” of the situation. It is incredibly manipulative to go around ranting about how horrible her work/life would be if you left. She knows what she is doing.
      I was in a similar situation. I taught at a very small school a while back, wherein I was the only teacher of a core subject area. I also held a lot of responsibilities around school. However, the culture was toxic and I felt sick to my stomach every morning just trying to get ready and force myself to leave the house. I began quietly job-hunting. When the director got the vibe that I might be ready to leave, he started doing similar to what your boss is doing: loudly commenting about how bad things would be if I left, presenting me with random gifts and loud praise, giving me nicknames like “Superstar” and randomly commenting that the school would close without me, etc. One day he even called me in front of the student body and presented me with a new flat-screen TV! That moment, oddly, was my last straw. Later, privately, I gave the TV back to him. The next week, I had found a new job and resigned. And guess what? The school didn’t fall apart. He’s fine. And I’m so glad to be out of there!!

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Look, if she’s that paranoid about losing you, she’s not going to fire you for having normal personal boundaries.

      Don’t talk to her in your day off. Even in work days, don’t answer texts that aren’t directly a part of doing your job.

      If she asks you a million questions about your dog sitter, say, “I’m not sure why you need to know that.” And then, “Excuse me, I have to get back to work.”

    4. ..Kat..*

      Um, stop replying to questions from her about your personal life when you are at home (off the clocks). If she blows up your phone, just block her when you are off work.

      And at work, just deflect with, “can’t talk about personal issues, must focus on important work project.”

      If she asks how long you are staying at current job, how about saying, “it would be easier to stay if I was paid more/appropriately/whatever.”

  107. KC*

    I got a job rejection this week so good that I was sort of stunned! I applied to a job at a place I really wanted to work for, but the role itself seemed out of scope. I took a chance anyway and made it to the first round of interviews. The talent manager called me personally to tell me that they wouldn’t be moving forward, but said they thought I would be a great fit for the company and culture. The only thing was that I was too junior for the role – which is exactly what I thought! This place is doing a lot of hiring so we said we would keep in touch. It feels great to get my foot in the door and to know I made a good impression. I’m new to interviewing and only hear horror stories, so to have such an open and transparent process has been very affirming!

    1. Catsaber*

      That is good! Also it could turn into a position, especially if they are doing a lot of hiring. That is exactly what happened to me with my current job – I applied for something that was kind of a stretch, but they called me back to see if I would be interested in a more junior position. The junior position was basically a lateral transfer but with a 10k pay raise, so I said hell yes (in so many words). After about 8 months in that role, they were really impressed with me and promoted me to the stretch position.

      So yes, good things can happen. We just have to keep in mind that most of the time with job searching, you only hear about what’s at either end of the bell curve (usually the bad end) – we don’t often hear about all the mundane, totally normal, ordinary job searching stuff.

    2. Spool of Lies*

      That’s awesome!

      I had a similar experience this year: I interviewed with an awesome company in March but was rejected for the position. It was the nicest, most thoughtful rejection I’ve ever received. The manager invited me to coffee to discuss my career goals (which we did) and said she’d keep me in mind for future openings.

      Fast forward to last week, she called me out of the blue to offer me an even better role! I start in September!

      I hope it works out the same for you!

    3. Hope*

      So great to hear – also great to hear these other two stories of getting hired later on! I just also completed the best interview process I’ve ever gone through. Someone did a feedback call with me after each of the 3 rounds to give me tips on what the next round would be like and anything I should work on. I also had a call with the agency who did my psychometric tests to run me thru the results. And the final call (after they chose someone else with more experience of the core task of the job) was the hiring manager giving me concrete tips on how to position myself for a similar type of role going forward (since it’s a stretch from what I do now), positive feedback on what I did well and letting me know how close it was (“you gave yourself a great shot at the job”) and offering to connect me with people in his network when I move back to that city. Very generous and impressive. Of course it made me feel even sadder not to get that job. But wow, so appreciated and useful learnings for me – AND what a great way to create loyal, appreciative new contacts in that organisation’s professional network – even among those rejected for jobs! Anyhow, fingers crossed for you and well done!

  108. PossiblyEnoughDetailToBeIdentified*

    I need some coping mechanisms for dealing with a coworker’s noises.
    I know there has been advice provided here on being charitable towards coworkers who are getting over illnesses and making various coughs and sneezes, and those I totally get – even though they are annoying, they are short term. How do I cope when this is a long term/permanent thing?
    Coworker has smoked like a chimney for about 20 years, and regularly goes out about every 90 minutes or so for another dose of poison (we’re not talking vaping either – no amount of fresh mints disguises it). Every day, from about 2pm the coughing starts. And we’re not even talking chest-infection-coughing. This guy is going to hack up a lung! It’s *disgusting*.
    We’re in an open plan office and he’s on the desk directly behind me. A desk move is not an option. I already wear noise cancelling headphones for as long as is reasonable (to deal with other irritating noises like the woman who’s voice carries the full length of the office whenever she’s excited, which happens several times a day) and it’s reached the point where I’m actually starting to get headaches and earache from wearing them for up to 6 hours a day and having the volume at a point where it’s actually effective.
    I just don’t know how to block it out. He doesn’t face me (or my back), so it’s not like he’s coughing on the back of my neck, but our desks are almost airplane economy seating close and it’s really starting to get me down.
    If he were getting over an illness I’d feel different – there are plenty of people who have been sneezing volumously over the past two months because of seasonal allergies (a few of them have also not heard of kleenex/tissues/handkerchiefs either and snuffle/snort for a good twenty minutes after a sneezing session), but I know that come the autumn they’ll stop (until it’s cold & flu season, but again, this is not a permanent thing). This guy you could almost set your watch by for the hacking to start. Every. Single. Day. And it’s *so loud*. And it’s NEVER GOING TO STOP.
    I need some reframing suggestions. It’s a bit of a drastic step to quit, although there are plenty of other factors that are leading me in that direction – I just don’t want this to be the petty reason that pushes me over the edge.

    1. Christmas*

      I feel your pain. My mother is a long-time smoker and has that sick, gut-wrenching cough. It makes me nauseous and when she coughs more violently, I have sometimes almost wretched. It sounds terrible, but like many people, I’m sensitive to certain sounds.

      If it’s impossible to take a new desk, what about trading with someone? Might there be a way to chat discreetly with a coworker with whom you have a good rapport, and ask if they are not so easily bothered by loud sounds like coughing, might they trade desks with you? I’m with you, dude. I couldn’t bear it either.

      1. valentine*

        It’s not petty and wanting to leave is reason enough. The sound is so bad, my brain has shunted it off so I can only remember it when I hear it. Hacking up a lung is exactly right. *shudder* (And right behind you! I hope you have a high-backed chair.)

        Do whatever you would do if he were a runner and put his rank bare feet on his desk to air. Would anyone address that? Does anyone have standing to suggest he go elsewhere or not smoke during the workday? (He’d still have the cough, but maybe it’d go down a decibel or a factor of wet?)

    2. Toothless*

      To avoid headaches/earache, have you tried wearing earplugs under the headphones? That way you could tolerate a higher volume better.

    3. nonegiven*

      I haven’t smoked in 20 years and a few months ago I had a idk, sinus drainage/ dry throat irritation/ something, I coughed so long and hard I set off a glass breakage detector on an alarm system.

  109. Oaktree*

    I started a new job (an internal promotion, basically from Teapot Technologist to Teapot Researcher in a big corporate teapot firm) about six months ago. I was really overqualified for the first one and have been struggling with the learning curve for the new one. My boss basically knew she’d have to train me up from the beginning for this, and she’s been very patient with me and given me enough support. But I feel anxious about my performance a lot, and honestly I’m beginning to wonder if this is the right fit for me.

    A big part of it is that I don’t feel my labour supports anything good- the teapot firm’s clients are sort of not the kind of institutions I think highly of in an ethical sense. And while I love research, I don’t love that my research is effectively in support of projects I feel are a net negative in society.

    I don’t have debt and I do have savings. Enough to live on for several months. (Though that’s supposed to be for like… buying a house someday or something.) But I don’t know what else to do- I got a master’s degree in the field I’m in and I don’t have a ton of experience that directly relates to anything in social action non-profits. I don’t want to go back to school for retraining when I only just finished my master’s two years ago. I thought about doing grant-writing, since I’m pretty good at persuasive writing, but every posting wants x years’ experience. Which I don’t have.

    I also feel like if I were to quit this job, it would mean I was a failure.

    Basically, I feel kind of exhausted all the time just thinking about this, and I don’t know what to do. I don’t even have a goal in mind, I just know I’m not happy.

    1. Colette*

      That sounds really hard. Can you look for research jobs you’d like more? I don’t think your options are “keep doing this job” or “quit with nothing else lined up”. I also don’t think quitting makes you a failure.

      And finally, I don’t think that social action non-profits are the only way to do good things. Many, many businesses help people get things they need, feed their family, or enjoy their leisure time, and working for those businesses are making the people’s lives better in a small way. Of course there are bigger scale ways to do good, but don’t discount all of the jobs that make people’s lives run smoothly.

      1. Oaktree*

        All very true- I have the tendency to catastrophize a bit (yes, I have talked to my therapist about it…), so I appreciate you saying, explicitly, that it’s not all or nothing here. And also your point about for-profit enterprise not necessarily always being a Force For Evil- this is true and I forget sometimes.

        I’ve been looking for other jobs but to be honest, my actual field is quite niche and competitive, so most likely I’d be looking at something of a career change, which is scary.

      2. Oaktree*

        I wrote out this whole reply and it didn’t post, but basically, thanks- I do a lot of all-or-nothing thinking, so it’s good for me to get a reality check where that’s concerned. Also, the point about businesses being an option.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Apply for the grant writing jobs anyway if that’s what you want to do. You may have to target smaller organizations in order to get a foot in the door (they’re usually more willing to take on inexperienced writers) and your job search may take a while, but you only need to get to one yes. I say that as someone who job searched for eight months almost two years ago and was finally able to land a proposal management job with zero proposal experience.

    3. Orange You Glad*

      It sounds like you’re struggling with your new position and are looking for reasons to leave.

      It’s the same company it was when you had the other role – so why do the clients ethics matter NOW but not BEFORE? Or at least not mattering enough to not take an internal promotion instead of job searching & leaving?

      The difference is you. You’ve changed; you went from a job you were overqualified for to a job you feel is beyond you. It’s not – your boss wouldn’t have hired you for this without trusting you will figure it out! It usually takes a year to really acclimate with a new role – you’ve only done six months!

      What if you put it on the calendar for the one year anniversary in this role to decide if you want to leave or not? Give it six months and then decide.

  110. Quitting time*

    I just verbally accepted an offer at a FinTech firm as a fund accountant. I will be receiving my written offer early next week, at which point I will resign from my current position. I am at a big 4 accounting firm, and unassigned for the next few weeks, which means I don’t have any current clients or projects. I will meet with my busy season partner and senior manager after getting my written offer. Can anyone advise on if they will ask me to leave immediately, or stay 2 weeks without any work to really hand off? Thank you in advance!!

    1. boredatwork*

      Typically, it depends on if you are going to work at a competitor. My guess is they’ll say that’s fine and you can basically just hang out until your two-weeks are up.

      Also, I would wait until after you get through the back ground check/drug testing before putting in your notice.

  111. Zap R.*

    Any advice on rebuilding a career after a discriminatory firing and human rights tribunal process? I “won” for all intents and purposes, but it’s been two years since the firing and I’m still working in a job I’m way overqualified for, making $20,000 less than I was, and nowhere near breaking back into my field. It’s frustrating because even though I got the best possible resolution I could, the damage done to my life is still pretty enormous. How do you rebuild from a personal and professional trauma like that, especially when it obliterated your life savings and your professional network?

    (And for the love of God, do not tell me to go to therapy. I am well aware of the concept of therapy.)

    1. OtterB*

      Take this with several grains of salt, because I have not had to do this in the career realm nor has anyone close to me. But your use of the word “trauma” made me think of advice about medical trauma. (My husband had a bad fall at work a couple of years ago with multiple broken bones, and he participates in a trauma survivor’s network at the hospital where he had his surgeries.) The general advice is that you don’t pick up your life where you left off. Trauma changes you and some of those changes are irrevocable. You go forward from where you are.

      So, have you thought about what success looks like from where you are now? Are your goals what they were before, or have they shifted in some way? Is there some adjacent field you could move into? Are parts of your professional network repairable?

      Disregard if this is too simplistic and therefore helpy instead of helpful.

      1. Zap R.*

        No, this is very helpful! (Although I love the term “helpy” and plan to use it in my everyday life.)

        Thank you.

        1. OtterB*

          I got “helpy” from the Dysfunctional Families Day threads on Making Light, which use that or even “hlepy” for the kind of advice that come from people who don’t understand your situation at all but still want to tell you what to do about it.

    2. anonagain*

      I quit and didn’t bring a complaint. (The person in the role before me was fired, brought a discrimination complaint and didn’t work in our field again after that. I was too worn out and scared to even try.) It was and is traumatic.

      I’m working toward switching fields now. I plan to keep using my skills from my original career by volunteering and doing hobbyist stuff. It is still awful though.

      I don’t have good advice, but I wanted to let you know that this internet stranger is cheering you on. I hope you’re able to find a path that suits you.

  112. President Porpoise*

    Last week was my interim review. During the career aspirations section, my boss asked what I wanted to do in the future, was I still interested in management, etc. I said I was, but didn’t feel ready to move in that direction yet, since I feel like I’m still not a great communicator and may cause people unhappiness if I was in a supervisory role over them through lack of tact and social grace, etc. I cited the fact that one of the managers does not particularly like me, I think mostly due to communication styles and first impressions, and I therefore had not applied for an open supervisory role in her group. The role also has a strict years of experience requirement that I don’t quite meet. My boss then said “Would you want to be the acting [supervisory role]?” I said I was still not ready for it, got nervous and started babbling (in large part because of a migraine I’d been treating with caffeine).

    I’m happy to not take the acting supervisory role, because I’d still have all my current duties plus all of the stuff that that role would entail, I’d have to report to the manager that doesn’t like me, and I know at least one more senior member of the team applied and didn’t get it – and further, knows that I didn’t apply, so it’d be a huge slap in his face. But do you think that I’ve killed any chance at getting a future management role in my organization?

    1. Me*

      I think maybe you are selling yourself short. To a certain extent managing is like any new role – you ain’t going to be perfect at it day one. Self-awareness is great – way too many people don’t have nearly enough of it. I’ve also found that the people who know their own weaknesses do a much better job at about everything because they’re cognizant of what they have to work harder at/compensate for.

      Unless your manager has questionable judgement, it would seem that your manager does think you are ready and the offer of acting was a way to (1) get your feet wet managing (2) allow you to bail if it really wasn’t your thing.

      To your specific question, I don’t think your lost future chances at management. To the question you didn’t ask, it sounds like you are more ready than you think. Maybe have a follow-up chat with your manager about how he sees your readiness for a supervisory role.

  113. Budgie Buddy*

    Last week one of the reporters at my office had an issue with a source who wanted to communicate by text, then called her phone about something non-work related and texted her asking to be “friends over text.” She emailed me screenshots of the of the conversation and I was like yup it looks fishy.

    (To be clear: It’s not weird to give out phone numbers at our company, since we sometimes do interviews that way.)

    I advised her to block this guy on any and all social media and refer him to the office. (Luckily she didn’t need any more information from him.) I suggested she could add a face-saving “Thanks for all your help, passing this on to my editor now” before blocking.

    So far it seems like the source took the hint, but it just sucks that this happened to someone. :/

    1. Christmas*

      Budgie: Your instinct was right. I got the creeps just reading this. That guy was definitely trying to imply that he wanted to have something extra in addition to a work relationship. It’s pretty obvious that he was trying to create a separate space where the social rules are different he could go out of the bounds of workplace professionalism (phone calls are work-related, but they are “friends” on text). If this communication had continued, he could easily have been the manipulative type that would’ve begun flirting or being inappropriate on text, and then if she called him out on it, he’d claim that it’s outside the realm of work and has nothing to do with their phone communications. You know, because they are “friends over text”. A subtle but sure red flag.

  114. Dr Useless*

    I’m unemployed/job searching at the moment and it’s so frustrating. After several months of not getting interviews I’ve interviewed for two different jobs in the last few weeks. I had the second interview for one of them last week, they told me they’d let me know by the end of the week, but I’ve not heard back from them. I’m now overthinking whether this is a “sign” of some sort, when I’m sure the most likely explanation is that they just didn’t manage to keep the planned schedule for the decision making process.
    The second job I interviewed for was a traineeship that was advertised as “paid”, the interview went well (I thought), but the “compensation” (I hesitate to call it a salary) they offer is so low, I can’t possibly accept it even if I’m offered the position, there’s just no way of even remotely covering my most basic expenses on that.
    I’m feeling so demoralised and demotivated :(

    1. Kiwiii*

      Always give hiring people twice as long as they’ve said things will take to get back to you before following up. (so give them another week). Feel free to follow up after that, though! Just reiterate that you’re excited for the opportunity and are wondering about a timeline/any news.

      If you’ve only gotten a couple interviews in several months, I’m wondering if you’re catering your resume enough towards the position. For lower level jobs, checking off specifically “yes, I have done this thing you’ve listen in the qualifications section” does a lot towards getting you in the door. Even if you think they maybe could infer it, make sure it’s stated clearly. If you’re applying for higher level jobs, make sure you’re including not just accomplishments, but relevant accomplishments. Maybe the two most important things you achieved at your most recent position are not at all related to the job you’re applying for? Maybe a thing you don’t care as much about will sound impressive to a different position? Catering things specifically for roles can go a long way.

      1. Dr Useless*

        I have been trying to do that in the cover letter, but I do feel I need to cater my CV more to the positions I’m applying for. I’ve been in academia for a while and I’m currently definitely ending up in the reject pile based on being overqualified/having the wrong qualifications, so I need to change the focus of the CV to show that I’m not defined by my degrees. The most recent thing I did was my phd, and it’s definitely what’s keeping me from getting hired, because people don’t look past “phd” to see “managed own project”, “maintained a professional network”, “presented my research”, “got federal funding”.

        1. Kiwiii*

          If you think the PhD is hindering you for certain positions, take it off! It may seem kind of silly to remove the high point of your academic success, but if it’s not related to the things you’re applying for, you might be right that it’s throwing people off. There’s no rule that says you have to include it.

          1. Dr Useless*

            I have considered it, but haven’t come up with an idea of dealing with the four year gap that results from it. Without the PhD I’m just a MA graduate who quit her job shortly after graduation to do … Nothing for the last four years? It’s the same issue with moving the education down on the CV, it means putting experience from four years ago to the top.

        2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Would it help to write your title as “Graduate Student Researcher* (Project Manager)”, tailoring the accomplishments to a project management (lowercase, not uppercase) role?

          Also, move your education section to the bottom of your resume.

          *Or whatever your official title was.

          1. Dr Useless*

            Yes, I think I’ll try to rewrite the section on my PhD to look more like work and less like education. I’m not sure moving the education down in the CV is a good idea though, because it means starting off the CV with work experience from four years ago. I’m not listing my current “job” as a job, but have it in a separate section of the CV on the second page. On the one hand because it’s only 1-2 hours a week and also so different from anything else I’ve done or intend to do. (I teach dance, which depending on people’s personal opinion shows I can teach and communicate outside of academia, or is a silly and weird hobby).

            1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

              This is just me: I list my graduate work i my “professional experience” section. Regardless of your field, I think a PhD is professional experience.

              In my case, I worked in a lab/field/greenhouse, designed my own project/experiments, hired and trained my own lab assistants/managed a team, wrote my own grants, etc. That’s work, even though I was “in school” (I rarely had a class to go to).

              1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

                Adding: My “education” section only lists my degrees (i.e. degree name, subject, school, city/state; 2-3 lines total), which is why I thought that was less relevant and could go to the bottom.

    2. Colette*

      Job hunting is like that … can you connect with former colleagues to catch up on what they are doing/get info on the company they work for? I find that talking with people who know me to be competent helps get me out of that demoralized mindset.

      1. Dr Useless*

        I definitely look forward to summer break being over, I have a small “side gig” that doesn’t really do much for me financially, but allows me to get out of the house and feel competent and confident about something. Thanks for reminding me of that :)

    3. Dana B.S.*

      It’s not a sign, but you should mentally move on as if you don’t have it. Keep applying elsewhere! Hiring is so hard and there is often a bottleneck somewhere in most organizations.

      Job searching can be really demoralizing, but you can get through it! It can take a lot navigating through some bad things.

      1. Dr Useless*

        I definitely intend to keep applying, even though it’s so hard to find the motivation at the moment. I appreciate the pep talk, thanks :)

  115. Blarg*

    I’m going to jump in and start my own consulting business. I’ll hopefully be doing project-based work for state governments and non-profits in a very niche area of expertise. For now I’ll be functioning as a sole proprietor and working from home. What haven’t I thought of? What do you wish you’d known or done or anticipated? I have no idea what I’m doing on the business end, so at the very least I’m documenting everything I do and trying to follow regs to the letter. Thanks! Hope everyone in the heat wave zone is able to stay safe and cool.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Talk to an accountant and understand what you’ll have to do regarding quarterly payment of estimated taxes. Also get an idea whether incorporating or forming some other kind of business entity would be favorable for you.

      Talk to a lawyer and understand what you’ll have to do for state and local licensing.

      Talk to an insurance agent to discuss general liability and E and O insurance.

      Draw up a business plan (google for templates) and get an idea of when you figure you may be able to turn a profit. This document will also be helpful for when you’re looking for a business loan and when you start marketing your business.

      Good luck!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t act as a sole proprietor. You leave yourself open too much, you will want to look into at least an LLC because that will protect you if ever go into debt for this business. I

      I echo the advice that you need to lock down an accountant pretty much immediately, insurance agency firm and also a lawyer on retainer.

    3. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Eh, depending on the field you plan to work in, I don’t really agree with a lot of the advice others are giving here. Yes, forming an LLC and having an accountant and a lawyer and insurance etc are all good things, but they do cost money, and there’s a tradeoff. If you’re going to have relatively straightforward billing, and you’re interested in/able to learn a bit, there’s not much of a need to hire an accountant, for instance. Some people really hate taxes and don’t want to touch them with a 10 foot pole, sure. But everything you need to know to do your own taxes is out there. You can use Excel or similar to track expenses and revenue, sign up for quarterly tax payments yourself online, etc.

      You definitely don’t need to have a lawyer on retainer unless you think you need one for substantive reasons having to do with your business, which you would know about already. There’s no inherent reason you need a lawyer ASAP.

      For LLC vs sole proprietor… yes, the liability to your person is potentially greater if you’re a sole proprietor. But there are lots of laws, filings, and whatnot that trigger when you go LLC versus sole proprietor. If you start raking in cash, it’s a different story, but if you are mostly planning to operate by yourself (not hiring employees) and having a relatively small number of clients at first, I don’t think an LLC is at all urgent. Sole proprietorship is specifically designed for single-operator businesses that want to have a very streamlined set of compliance tasks. There are benefits that are worth consideration.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I totally agree! I didn’t do any of this when I started out. It really depends on what type of business you’re running. And definitely no need to have a lawyer on retainer (which would mean paying each month even if you don’t use them).

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          Well, for every successful blog on the internet there are a million The Billfold’s, where, for example and if I understand their problem correctly, they started an LLC without talking to an accountant or lawyer first. One tax cycle later, the founder(s) were hit with an unsurvivable surprise tax liability because they didn’t understand how LLC income is taxable to the LLC members.

          But yes, it definitely depends on the type of business. If this is a side gig to supplement household income, then nailing down a lot of stuff isn’t so important. But if you’re looking to have it be your primary or sole household income, then best-practices planning includes, at the very least, making an appointment with an accountant and spending a good number of hours drawing up a realistic, researched business plan. Skipping this stuff is just penny-wise, pound-foolish, while doing it is the difference between having a hobby and having a business.

        2. Glomarization, Esq.*

          paying each month even if you don’t use them

          Never say never, but I don’t know any lawyer or firm who handles retainers that way. They’re not a subscription that you pay whether or not the lawyer works for you. A retainer is the fee you pre-pay your lawyer, who holds it in a trust account until they do the work; then they pay themselves out of the trust account, and you replenish the retainer from time to time as needed.

          A client who is paying a retainer monthly is a client whose lawyer is doing some amount of work for them so frequently that they need the retainer replenished monthly. A lawyer who takes money out of that retainer without having done any work risks running afoul of their licensure authority’s professional responsibility rules.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I think the the trigger here is that they’re saying that they’re “starting a consulting business” which is different in terms of being a freelancer and just operating on contract labor status. By calling it a business, you want to make sure you’re protected from the very start. If it’s just freelance single person contract work, then yeah don’t bother with the additional expenses.

        Switching gears after awhile is often more time consuming than doing everything up front.

        1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

          I disagree! There is no substantive legal difference between “I’m a consultant” and “I’m a contractor.” In many places, they’re used synonymously. Sole proprietorships are a perfectly suitable construction for a single-person business.

    4. NoLongerYoung*

      Nolo press has some helpful books. I won’t add to the advice here on business format (I’m a sole prop but I only have one side gig consulting client, long standing).
      I did have to get a business license from my municipality, and keep it posted. (I had to advertise in the local legal adds for the DBA business ad, etc, too). Since I have the client and it’s just a side gig, I don’t have advertising or anything… but I do follow the local laws.
      Checklists are good in that book and elsewhere. Also, SBA (Small business administration) has some good webinars and free materials, too.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Remember, you will have to charge a lot more than your previous hourly income. You will be paying your own taxes and not receiving benefits. If you will be working from home, find out how to make sure you legally qualify for a home office tax deduction.

  116. Sleepy in Seattle*

    I took my first business trip this week to a location on the west coast (my home office is in the central time zone). Right before my trip, I discovered an issue with the information that I was given from a vendor on a new product. This meant that we would need to change the product. I communicated with the sales team and made a new choice that fit what we were looking at initially with no change to cost or delivery date. I sent a detailed email to my boss and an outside consultant who was assisting us on this product. On my first day of the trip, I got a reply insisting that we needed to have a conference call to go over my email. The only time the others were available was the following day at 8 a.m. which was 6 a.m. for me. When I got on the call, I just repeated what I wrote in the email. They then spent a lot of time going back and forth about why this issue could have happened in the first place. My opinion is that is what an honest mistake that came out of a new change that the sales team hadn’t been able to review yet. The vendor does not benefit in any way from us having to fix the mistake and in fact needs to spend more time changing the request internally and doing more work.

    Basically, I found a problem, quickly identified a solution, and then sent an email for approval of the change. I got dragged into a crack of dawn meeting about potential negative intent of our vendor.

    2 questions:
    1. Should I have insisted that 6 a.m. is an unacceptable time to have the conference call since I had no new information? I am not a morning person and it’s not even really the norm to have 8 a.m. meetings when I’m in the office. I was looking forward to my west coast trip because it could mean that I could wake up on my natural sleep cycle.
    2. Should I consider anything about their reaction to this issue? Should I be concerned about their lack of confidence in my decision-making or in the vendor in general (who I selected, with approval)?

    1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Eh, this doesn’t seem super red-flaggy to me. Depending on how long you’ve been at the job, it’s reasonable for them to not 100% trust you yet, and a conference call isn’t even necessarily an indication of mistrust. Some people just see a long email and don’t process it, and need to talk it out. This could be

      I think insisting that it was an unacceptable time would probably have been a mistake! It’s a very aggressive response, and you didn’t know whether or not *you’d* be receiving new information on the call. Given that you were already on the trip, I would honestly assume that someone saw the email, saw that you went on the trip anyway (which wasn’t a bad call, but see above for People Who Don’t Read Emails) and freaked out about whether the product was still on-track, whether it still met your needs, whether there was a bigger problem being revealed, etc.

      Some people just get more freaked out about that stuff than others, some need to talk it out rather than read about it, and some people would have wanted to confirm the details before you left on the trip. Some of that stuff is a big pain, for sure, and some of it will go away over time and some won’t. But I wouldn’t read anything more into it than “some people sort of freaked out and needed to be reassured.”

  117. Pleeb*

    Should I post my resume on linkedin?
    My grad school internship ends on August 1st. I thought by this point I’d have a job, but despite 30 applications and 10 interviews, nothing has stuck. I’m getting very anxious and I’ve seen people in the past write a post that includes their resume and an announcement about job searching. It struck me as desperate and something I was adamantly against (probably for ego reasons). Is it worth a shot? Am I wrong in thinking it’s read as desperation? Is there a way to do it well?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Posting your resume seems redundant, since that information should already be on your LinkedIn profile (there was a thread above about LinkedIn, I think, that would be relevant). Anyways:

      1) You’re at a 3:1 ratio of applications to interviews, it doesn’t sound like the problem is getting your foot in the door. The areas you can explore working on are: interview skills and references. Maybe ask for feedback on jobs you were rejected from; they may be willing to share, but don’t get angry or defensive if they don’t (or share something you disagree with).

      2) From what other commenters and AAM have said, posting your resume online is not a good strategy to find jobs, at least for white collar jobs.

  118. Ada*

    So my husband and I have settled on a place to relocate to, with more career opportunities for the both of us, much better cost of living, and better climate. We’ve been applying to jobs there, but no luck yet. With the cost of living in our area exploding, we wanted to move this year, but as long distance candidates, we’re not confident that will happen soon. It occurred to me, though, that many of my colleagues in the same role as me work remotely, which means it should be a possibility for me too. I was thinking of changing tacks and asking to relocate and focusing on moving first instead. That would give us an opportunity to settle in and adjust to the area before resuming the job hunt, plus it would give me freedom to be pickier about the next job I take as opposed to taking any job that would get me into the area. Thing is, I’m worried about burning bridges if I ask to work remotely if I end up getting a new job shortly after. This is my first job in this industry, so I’m going to need these references down the line. I don’t want to act in bad faith, but I feel like I’m running out of options (and it’s not as if I haven’t made multiple good faith attempts to make this job work as it is). Is there a way to do this without burning bridges/losing good references?

    1. CM*

      I don’t think you said how long you’ve been at your current job, which makes a difference — the longer you’ve been there, the less chance you’ll burn a bridge. Would you consider staying for at least six months after relocating? (I mean making this decision for yourself; no need to make a formal commitment to your employer unless they ask.) I agree it might leave a bad taste in their mouths if they agreed to let you do this and then you quit a month or two later. But after six months to a year, it would be reasonable to move on.

      1. Ada*

        I’ve been here for eight years, so I’ve got that going for me. I agree about waiting a bit before resuming the job hunt (unless a truly amazing opportunity came up that would be crazy to pass on). Honestly, I would think I’d want to take some time to recover from the move and adjust to the area anyway. Plus it would give me an opportunity to continue to build up my skill set even further (something I’ve been doing in my spare time lately – things like teaching myself programs commonly used in the industry but not at my company).

  119. Izzy Legal*

    Does anyone have advice on managing up to a remote boss? My current manager and I sit in different states/time zones. We see each other in person about six times per year.

    She’s notorious for not answering emails where something needs approval/review. Getting her on the phone is difficult because she’s in back-to-back meetings on most days. I’ve tried re-wording subject lines (“Need approval by Friday”), setting her calendar reminders, and bringing it up in our weekly phone 1:1s, etc. It didn’t get better.

    I’ve also tried the ask-forgiveness-not-permission route (“I’ll move forward with this in two weeks unless I hear otherwise”), and that’s why our public-facing logo has changed four times this year. She wakes up/swoops in after the fact and suddenly has changes.

    After all these approaches, I did have a face-to-face conversation with her, and let her know that not only are projects being held up, but it’s time-consuming on my part to persistently follow-up. She said if I’m not hearing from her, to send a text or IM. But that turns into a “Thanks for the reminder! I’ll look by EOD” and then nothing.

    This is part rant, part advice-seeking… any help appreciated!

    1. CM*

      Maybe bug her more? Or find some other route to get to her, like someone who works in her office and could physically reach her — ideally somebody like an admin/EA if that person exists in your workplace?

      1. CM*

        Also, would it be possible to persuade her to change some processes so they don’t need her review or approval?

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Could you ask for a regular (possibly weekly, depending on how much feedback you need from her on decisions) check-in specifically to knock-out several of these items all at once?

  120. Flaxseed*

    At old toxic office job, a lot of people were dating one another. There was a lot of gossip about it- who was dating whom, who broke up, etc. I know that some people find love and may eventually marry- my parents met at work, but I thought that one wasn’t supposed to “dip their toe in the company pond” so to speak. Plus, what if you break up? Then you have to see the person all the time.

    My coworkers gave me a hard time because they thought that something was going on with a guy that worked in another department. (There wasn’t!) It was very awkward every time he came around because they were so annoying about it. He started dating someone else who worked there, so they stopped giving me a hard time, but do people just not care? Can they afford to quit? Personally, I’m scared off just when people start gossiping because I don’t want to be fired. How do others handle it?

    1. ContemporaryIssued*

      I generally advice my friends against it, because the worst case scenario (you date somebody, it doesn’t work out, they turn out to be a horrible stalker who sabotages your career and life and everything) is not worth the risk. But I’ve noticed a lot of people in my company are married or dating, or married or dating somebody who used to work there. I asked a lady, say Jane Butterworth, from the other office if she knew Greg Butterworth from our sister company (since it’s an uncommon name, I assumed they were relatives), and she was like, “Yeah, he’s my husband.” I think some fields are more casual and I guess people are cool about it, as long as people remain professional about it in the face of breakups or marital issues.

      I am also dating a former co-worker, though in my defence we only went out after he put in his two weeks. I wouldn’t have gone out with him, had the circumstances not shaken out that way.

  121. BurntOfferings*

    It seems that burn out/motivation deficit is so much more prevalent than I’d realized.. I’ve been avidly reading everyone’s comments as I’ve been struggling with this for awhile and over the last several months it’s become too much – to the point where I feel like I’m drowning. Been in the job for what seems like forever and have always been one of those “go-to” types – covering other’s workloads during LOA’s and vacancies. At this point, I’m covering 1.75 workloads (down from 2.5) and supervise a team; as a supervisor we’re only supposed to cover half a workload. I’ve hit a wall and am so overwhelmed at times. There’s so much to do. I get swamped in just thinking of what needs to be done and paralysis sets in. I spend time organizing and making notes/lists of what needs to be done and then try to tackle things incrementally but then fires start and I get pulled away to take care of urgent issues and things just keep piling up. I have to stay at least 3 more years to be fully vested; and I spend time calculating how soon after I could possibly leave. Our department is the catch all that when other departments can’t or won’t resolve issues they’re handed over to us; department management doesn’t advocate for us.. as it makes them look good. My team is all stressed and dealing with burn out issues of their own so I’m hesitant to transfer projects over. There were so many helpful and thoughtful comments earlier.. But somehow it just seems like too much to tackle at times. I’ve been offered the option to take some time off but without a reduction in workload – it just means that much more will accumulate.

    1. Yep*

      I am so burnt out too. I’m definitely feeling a lack of support because I don’t even have anyone else in my department.

      The only thing that really helps me is writing a list of everything that I need to do (in categories) on a blank, white sheet of printer paper. Even lined paper stresses me out. It feels good to cross something off the list, but by the time I do that, it’s time to start over with a whole other list of new items!

      I don’t have anything keeping me here, but I haven’t taken a vacation in almost 2 years because of moving jobs in that time. I’m hoping to get approval on a vacation next month and in December. Maybe after that I’ll feel rested enough to start a job search.

      1. BurntOfferings*

        Sorry.. I had to chuckle at you saying that even line paper stresses you out.. I know just what you mean..
        When did it all become just too much?

        I think it must be that much more difficult to not have anyone else in your department. That’s one thing that we all agree on here.. that we do have lot’s of misery company… without our peers/co-workers I doubt anyone would last long/or stay somewhat sane.

        I hope you get both your vacations approved. If you have something to look forward to – it seems to help for me.. just the planning.. and hopefully you’re able to disengage and not stress about work. The first vacation I took.. my boss was so horrible to me before I left – I ended up crying the first two days of the trip!

  122. Me--Blargh!*

    Nothing much to report at this time, except that I connected on Twitter with some screenwriting podcasters I like. One of them was following me and we had a great conversation in DM about Midsommar (I loved it; he didn’t, but we agreed on some points). Now another of the three is following me and he sent me a novel to review. Fun! Twitter may be a cesspool, but it’s good for making connections, at least in creative work.

    I’ve been trying to apply for jobs while sorting and packing. It’s tough not knowing exactly where I’m going, but at least when this house sells, I’ll be free to go wherever I want. So for now, I’ve continued to apply in BiggerCity in HandmaidState, where my mum lives and where I’ll be staying in the interim. I also submitted an app yesterday for a *dream* job in ExpensiveCoastalCity in IWannaGoBackToItState. I’d love to get it if I don’t get that mentorship. I probably won’t get either, though. *sigh* I need a huge break. Come on, universe. Quit being a d*ck.

    Fingers crossed that Pearl next door buys this house and it all happens quickly and I get as much as I can for it.

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Could you name some of those screenwriting podcasters? Ive been reading Save the Cat and geez he makes it sound so easy to just whip up some kids movie idea and sell it on lol. But I am curious about screenwriting and how that all works.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        It’s Writers/Blockbusters on Thunder Grunt. Jamie, Jimmy, and Bob!
        They talk about Save the Cat all the time. I read it but it was ages ago; I need to get a copy.

    2. Me--Blargh!*

      Forgot to add, I’ve basically given up looking for anything here in CityWhereILive.

    4. Belle di Vedremo*

      Positive Vibes coming for “dream job” in “WannaGoBackState”, and for Pearl to make you a great offer for your house that times perfectly with your being packed and ready to rock and roll. ====================!

  123. Bizarro land*

    So after this happened today I realized that although some things that are normal in my office would be considered bizarre in others this would be bizarre most places. I was sent out to purchase ammo as a bereavement gift for a coworker. (Hubby and CW use same gun shop so I was sent because I know the owners).
    What’s the most bizarre thing your job has tasked you with?

    1. Peaches*

      Wow, that is bizarre! I worked at a grocery store in college. At the store, we had something called “Brad Bucks” (Brad was the store owner), that you could earn by doing something super great (i.e., a customer bragging about your customer service skills to a manager, staying late to help in an emergency, coming in during inclement weather, etc.) You could redeem Brad Bucks for free meals during your break. Or, you could redeem your Brad Bucks to extend your break time by a certain number of minutes.

      Anyway, one evening, my manager came over to me and said that someone had made a “huge #2 mess” in the bathroom, and if I cleaned it up, she would give me $25 Brad Bucks. I agreed before entering the bathroom and OH MY. We are talking #2 smeared all over the wall, floors, toilet seat, and stall walls (Alison, please feel free to delete this if it’s too graphic). I about passed out while cleaning, but somehow got the job done. As a 19 year old, it was worth it to get free dinner on the job for the next several weeks (our employee meals were discounted at like $2.50/entree, so the Brad Bucks lasted me a while!)

      1. Bizarro land*

        We would have sent flowers but he requested no flowers and no food so we were trying to do something to show we care and I couldn’t think of a better way to phrase the reason behind the gift

    3. Mojo021*

      I once ran to Walmart to purchase underwear for my boss….. She forgot to change them when she changed into khaki pants that morning and you could totally tell she was wearing dark ones. If she were one to just sit in an office this wouldn’t be a big deal, but she was a seriously busy recruiter who ran around the building of a fortune 500 company all day. I always referred to the main hallway as the runway because everyone was very fashionable and shopped in high end places. There was no way I could let her walk around like that!

  124. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

    Due to health issues (now resolved!) I’ve been out of work for about 2 years. I was basically a ‘jackie of all trades’ at my last job – I was hired to sort and shred about 10 years of paperwork, then some scanning and inputting, then I took over the cleaning for the office and some rentals. And a bunch of other stuff. I was going to be moved into kind of a PM position, but for reasons that didn’t happen.
    Before that job, I’ve mostly been in retail. I do not want to do retail anymore. I want a part-time job where I know what my days and hours are going to be and I do not want to work weekends. Plus I have a business that is seasonal and almost exclusivly on the weekends (Temporary Airbrush Tattoos).
    Before I got too sick, I was taking a class in various office computer things (microsoft office, outlook, excel etc) – Excel is apparently a must know. I’m starting back on the class soon, and then I figured I would do the temp agency route.
    I always thought that I was a job hopper at my retail jobs, but apparently not – I would get hired for seasonal work then end up staying for 5ish years, although my last retail job, a few years back, was my shortest – (new manager that was the most incompetent person that I’ve ever met or even worked with, but hey, he was the district managers buddy, so…). That was it for me for retail, but I’m considering taking one, part time, while I go to school.
    Ok, so here’s my questions -omg finially! ;-)
    Any suggestions on things that I need to learn to be a stronger candidate?

    And, while I was sick, I stopped coloring my hair. I’ve got a LOT of white, silver – basically I look like a calico cat. I need to color it, right? I mean, its obvious that I’m in my mid 50’s, but this probably makes it worse. I can’t get an honest opinion from family & friends about this – I just get ‘it looks cool!’ And I’m assuming that I should color it a normal color (I’m partial to purples…).

    Thank You!

    1. Auntie Social*

      Unless you’re going into finance or probate law, I think purple is cool. You look younger and cooler (says the 65 year old)

    2. boredatwork*

      You don’t need to color your hair but it should all be one color. Dye it or cut off the parts that are not your natural shade. Unfortunately, having purple hair will still limit your job opportunities in more traditional office work.

    3. WellRed*

      I think you should consider coloring your hair and not purple. It’s just my opinion, but I think fun and funky hair colors aren’t all that easy to put off for Women of a Certain Age. Of which I am one.

      1. Mazzy*

        Yes, purple may of off-putting or give the sign that you don’t understand office norms, but that reddish-magenta color really packs a punch but also looks professional, and enough people have it that it isn’t seen as tied to any counter-culture.

    4. Wishing You Well*

      Dye it a normal color, then get the job. Job first, purple hair later maybe.

  125. Anonymatic YoYo*

    What to do about a new junior who is really needy, anxious, and insecure?

    I haven’t run into this before, but I had a new junior employee assigned to me last month to work on a very short, sharp project on the assumption it would be easy enough for her o do right away and light enough touch to give me a break after an extremely intense period of work. She has about 8 years of total work experience, and should have been able to handle this with light coaching from me.

    Its been well, its been rough. I won’t say its been a disaster because I’ve been in her place before so I get it, this workplace is not easy for new people because there aren’t any processes, and this is also a completely new way of thinking/working for her. But we are four weeks overdue now and she is still claiming she doesn’t really understand the question/point of what we are doing and kinda shrugs her shoulders, calls it crap and shit, and is dumping it on me to fix.

    I have tried everything through coaching her through how to set up a question, how to research it and helping her find and introduce her to the internal experts, how to write in our style, how to make it a narrative, had her strip it back to the basics and then build it up again when she wasn’t able to do it ‘the right way’ first time, coached her multiple times through the actual topic itself (I have some background in it) and explained why we are covering it. I checked in with how she was feeling in thinking in this new way, if we had enough check ins (she requested more and then chases me down in the morning with even more questions where five minutes becomes an hour of pestering). She hasn’t added multiple things I have requested her to add several times because she doesn’t get it – even though I patiently described to her why and how they fit in and where to put them. The next phase seems to be her resorting to learned helplessness and defensiveness and folks, I dont have the time or energy for this in my current state. At all.

    I’m somewhat at my wits end here – she was asking for feedback after the first two weeks, then asking her line manager for feedback, and then asking everyone else about this work and their feedback on her work to date on it, even though they haven’t been working with her at all on this. I feel like she is building a narrative for herself or otherwise that I am too demanding and she didn’t need to do it the way it was done (these people also don’t have the background on the project). I have her on my next project that is starting and the other new person has much stronger skills/knowledge than she does (at the same level) and now she is freaking out. Again. And this is before she finds out Monday she will be split between my project and another which is far more time sensitive and yet – this first bit of work is incomplete.

    I spoke with her line manager about my concerns about this behavior, especially about the down talking of her work (after telling her several times to never speak like that of her work, ever). The basic research and organization skills are poor and that with the anxiety, I am very concerned that this needs to be addressed now before… she moves to a very small remote office in a few months. On her own. With no one else from this team out there or others doing this type of work. Line manager didn’t really have any answers other than ‘this is a nurturing team’.

    TLDR; I have a needy new junior team member who needs far more hand holding than expected. What do I do? How do I not completely lose my cool and patience, especially when I have my own work to do and extremely limited emotional bandwidth as it is at this job?

    1. fposte*

      Maybe this is anxiety and maybe it’s not; it seems like a big evasion, whatever it is. But it sounds like a big-time mismatch with the expectations of the job, and I’m with you in thinking that sending her off on her own will end badly for everybody. But I also think that’s not the real problem here for you–the problem is getting the additional work off of your hands. Do you have a manager you can go to to say that Jane was supposed to lighten your load but she really doesn’t have sufficient capacity to do that, so you’re asking for an alternative plan?

    2. Aquawoman*

      Can you ask not to work with this person, since they’re not your report? I also think you’re being way too nice. You’ve explained everything to her and she’s either too incompetent to understand what you’re saying or that sort of willfully obtuse that people use to get out of doing tasks they don’t want to do. I’ve had nervous employees who want hand-holding and this is beyond that.

    3. Anonymatic YoYo*

      Thanks everyone for the sanity check – I think I needed that more than anything else really.

      Where I work is a public agency and so they take an overly softly-softly approach which I don’t agree with, and I have been struggling with the overall work culture and just don’t fit anyway. But I have also worked with emotional manipulators and man, I have a bad gut feeling about this gal. Someone else had her helping them on something very quick raised similar issues of required hand-holding to the line manager, so my issues weren’t new (and she hasn’t even been here two months yet!).

      Due to bad resourcing processes I cannot get her off my project, but I will raise holy hell if it puts me into a situation where I am working all hours of the week again. I will have a project director on this larger project who will be able to see the situation and make a stronger case to management than the line manager (who is new to line management), similar to the person on the other project she will be dealing with. He is both nurturing and takes no crap, so perhaps she will respond to that approach. But when I say he takes no crap he will tell her she is terrible and her work is unacceptable.

      I have said my piece about the train wreck coming down the track with this move of hers to the other office (that date has changed twice and I note that she neglected to tell me the new date, moved forward) – probably best to stand back, keep this at arms distance, and continue my focus on getting myself out of there.

      1. valentine*

        She makes time to run around asking random people’s opinions, but not to do her work. You have gone above and beyond and even further, at great cost to you. Add up the time you’ve spent and think about what you could’ve done with it. It’s going to be harder for your good colleague because she’s a peer (on paper) of this person. If you can’t even trust her with an elementary portion that will at least be done, it’s better to have no one than to have her. Don’t help her beyond pointing her to what you said before. Don’t do her work and don’t overwork to do yours. Tell your manager what won’t get done at all/anywhere near properly. Let the chips fall.

  126. Garlic For Lunch*

    Would it be very bad if I only focused on certain aspects of my current job when updating my resume? And not mentioning other responsibilities?

    So my summer position has me in a pseudo-summer camp counselor/admin type of role. I spend one week (~38hr/wk) supervising kids during daily activities and trying to help them have a fun time at the summer camp. While the other week (~16 hrs/wk) is purely admin and my main project is to do data entry and basic analysis.

    I took this job to learn more about whether I would enjoy two different aspects of this job: working with kids and being in a teacher/mentor type of role vs. working with data, which are two new things for me since I come from a different field. I find myself enjoy the admin work a lot more than interacting with kiddos and really like working with the data. So for my next job, I would like to find something more related to data entry and admin work – so could I not mention supervising kids in my resume and only focus on the admin aspect? I’m the only person working with the data (other than my manager, who looks at the results and pastes them in his report while sending it to analysts for further data crunching) so I thought it would be fine? Also, I don’t want to confuse people reading my resume because the two parts of my role are very different.

    1. ContemporaryIssued*

      I think this is fine so long as you don’t obfuscate how much experience you actually gained in the role. Like, if the admin work you do is REALLY minimal and basic, it might not be enough to put in your resume.

      1. Garlic For Lunch*

        Even if I’m looking for entry roles? I’m not sure what would be considered minimal/basic or not since I’m a recent graduate.

    2. Colette*

      That’s a reasonable thing to do, but I’d probably add a bunch of points about the admin stuff and one point at the end to cover the supervision stuff, so that if someone calls for a reference, they’re not shocked to hear that you also worked with kids (especially since working with kids was a bigger part of the job).

      1. Garlic For Lunch*

        So something like this?

        Program Assistant (Temporary) X/2019 – X/2019
        * Analyzed and produced reports from survey data using Microsoft Excel and Word
        * Created a new data analysis template for future use
        * admin work description #1
        * admin work description #2
        * Supervised children during summer activities

          1. Garlic For Lunch*

            Thank you! I originally thought that my first bullet point had to be about explaining the summer camp and working with the kids but I’m glad to know that I can just dive in about the data/admin work.

        2. Not a Real Giraffe*

          But also – don’t discount the types of skills you learn by supervising kids that can be turned into administrative successes. Attention to detail, organization skills, time management, negotiating needs of kids vs. needs of staff, communication skills, and actually supervisory skills. Think about how you can spin the kid-side stuff into achievements for admin-focused roles.

          1. Garlic For Lunch*

            Oh that’s a good point, I forgot that the supervising part requires a lot of coordination and communication with the rest of the staff. But I’m not sure how to introduce it in the resume? Would it still go near the end? Maybe the last bullet point could be something like “Supervised cohorts of 10-12 children during the summer program, which required extensive communication with staff and attention to detail to ensure that activities smoothly proceeded”?

            Sorry for the annoyance, all my friends have tried to give me advice but we all lack extensive resume-writing experiences…

            1. Colette*

              I’d be more inclined to go with something like:
              – Ran organized activities for groups of 10-12 children during the summer program, making sure that all children were engaged and included
              – Proactively communicated outcomes and issues to other staff

              Obviously, you want to make sure that what you are saying is true, but I would want to lead with what you are emphasizing – i.e. the communication – and not put it at the end of the sentence.

          2. Colette*

            Definitely! Keeping a group of kids entertained and happy requires lots of skills – planning, problem solving, budgeting, crisis management.

  127. ContemporaryIssued*

    This week, I think I’ve gone from “This place is messy but I care deeply for it and want to improve and pipe up with lots of suggestions and step up whenever extra help is needed” to “I’m just sitting here to draw pay and maybe pick up some new skills for the CV when needed”.

    My old job within the same company has gone through some turnover. The problem with the job description is that you basically have to master technical stuff and service stuff, and they’ve gone through some pretty atrocious hires. Seems like they either hire somebody who’s okay with technical skills, but sucky at service/interpersonal skills, or great at service but absolutely dreadful at technical skills. This week I attempted to train the latest newbie. She seemed .. okay on the service front but absolutely clueless on the technical front. And slow like a sloth. My boss commented on this, and I just went, “Maybe she’ll get quicker once she’s learned more.” But on the inside, I don’t believe in it.

    It just sucks that I feel this pressure to pick up the slack because last year I worked that position. I was so lucky to escape and have my new duties! But I know if another person quits, if the newbie is so bad they have to let her go, I’m going to be the one to pitch in again.

  128. HereKittyKitty*

    Advice please!

    I had a phone call interview with a recruiter last Wednesday and was told I’d probably hear about next steps by Friday, now it’s this Friday. Should I email and inquire? Also I had an in person interview last Tuesday and have not heard a peep since then. When I inquired about the timeline I was told they would make the hire if the person that walked in was the right fit…. Should I just assume I’m not the right fit then? Should I email and ask for an update? I’m so confused. Please help.

    1. info scientist*

      I would wait it out a bit longer. It always takes longer than they think. If you don’t hear by next Friday, I think you can inquire. I know it’s tough to wait over the weekend but I think it’s for the best!

  129. Jan Levinson*

    So, I have a new coworker who has some…bathroom problems.

    Now, let me just preface this by saying, we all go #2! I’m not judging her for that in any way.

    However, I believe she may have a medical issue which causes particularly stinky bathroom trips. I say this as a former IBS sufferer who only recently got my symptoms under control, so I absolutely sympathize. and can relate.

    Here’s the issue though – we have both Poo-Pourri AND air freshener in our restroom. It is very clear that she does not use either, and I’m not sure why. I work for a cleaning supply company where we regularly get walk in customers (who sometimes use our restrooms) so it’s very important that our office is clean and smells clean as well. The stench tends to last for hours, and it is sometimes so bad that I can’t go in the restroom without feeling physically ill until the smell dies down a bit.

    Is there ANY tactful way to suggest she uses the air freshener and/or Poo-Pourri without totally humiliating her? By the way (just in case anyone questions whether I’m sure!) I am indeed certain that she doesn’t use the Poo-Pourri or air freshener. Working for a cleaning supply company, our air freshener tends to be industrial-level strong, so it’s very effective at removing odors.

    2. L.S. Cooper*

      This seems like a situation where a generic note might work– something like “Please help keep the bathroom smelling nice, use the air freshener or Poo-Pourri if you go #2”. Maybe better wording, but you get the gist.

    3. boredatwork*

      I think given your special circumstances (cleaning company) and (surprise) client visits, it’s okay to put up a little note, reminding people about the items available. I would do this in both the men’s and women’s restrooms.

      The automatic air freshener mentioned below is what my office uses.

    4. LGC*

      No advice, but I’m so glad you asked my question for next week!

      Anyway…hmm. I’m curious – could you put in a passive deodorizer? And longer-term, better ventilation would definitely help, and this should be suggested.

      Ideally, this would be something you’d mention in on-boarding, but barring that…maybe whisper in her ear as well? Mention that 1) it’s awkward but 2) because of your business and the fact you regularly get customers, 3) your company encourages EVERYONE to use deodorizers in the bathroom.

  130. Exhausted Trope*

    I would appreciate some perspective on my current work situation. This last week I completed part one of training for a very specific task within the information management system we use. I am grateful for the training. I got right to work documenting the procedure that same day and debriefed my manager. I offered her a copy of the document but she rather vigorously refused.
    I know for a fact that I’m the only one in the office now who knows the procedure.
    What I don’t understand is why my manager reacted that way. I was going to offer to walk her through the process but it definitely seems she doesn’t want to learn.
    (FWIW, I am clandestinely job hunting. I’m severely underpaid and really want to be doing the interesting work that I was hired to do, not boring work like I described.)
    Why did my manager react that way? It’s been bugging me all week.

    1. Colette*

      She had other priorities? She doesn’t expect to use the information? She thought your document was enough if she ever needs to do it?

      Put the document somewhere people will find it if they need it – that way you’ve done all you can.

    2. DataQueen*

      Because you got the training so that you could do the tasks – it’s not her job. I want to know that my staff knows what they are doing, but i don’t need to know how to do the nitty gritty. Learning a system would not be a good use of my time, because I have other priorities and am doing more senior level work. Perhaps you can ask her what a contingency plan for the system is, in case you’re ever out sick for a long period? You can point out that you are now the only one who knows it, and ask her if you can cross-train a colleague for emergencies?

    3. BeeGee*

      I can definitely relate to this situation, I was the young person at a small company and the go-to person for learning new technology systems. My first question is this a technology or system that the boss will need to use frequently? I could see not wanting to learn the system if it’s not something that they will need to use and can instead leverage you for any related tasks. They also just may not have time currently to dedicate to learning this.

      I wouldn’t worry too much about it. I understand the frustration of learning a system and taking time to create process guides only to find that no one is using them, but you just have to accept that you have done what was requested as your job and move on to other tasks. The only additional thing you should do is place the process guides in a company-wide accessible folder and notify any relevant team members via email about the completion of the process guide and the location for their future reference. In good faith, maybe note in the email that if they would like to set up time for training or walk-through to reach out to you.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      She delegated to process to you. If she becomes the repository of documentation on the process, it becomes her responsibility. She wants ownership to remain with you.

  131. coffee cup*

    I have to go to a client meeting next Wednesday. I’ve worked for the client for years but never met any of the people (editors and direct clients) face to face. I’m going with my big boss as my manager is unable to attend. I’m quite looking forward to putting faces to names and my boss says it’s pretty relaxed and a nice atmosphere (mainly female editors involved in healthcare).

    However, naturally(!) my period is due on Monday so it’s possible it’ll come Tues or Wed. For me the first two days are heavy and usually painful, and I take strong painkillers and have to go to the bathroom often during the day. I’m slightly worried about this being the case on Wed. Should I tell my boss beforehand if it ends up happening, so she’ll understand if I need to excuse myself? I don’t want to be unprofessional and go out during the meeting, but it also might be a very real need. I’m probably overthinking it!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      If your period is that regular, it makes me wonder if you’re on birth control pills. If so, you can easily move your period forward or back by a few days by stopping the pills early or taking them a couple of days longer.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I would say something ahead of time (as a fellow painful period sufferer, I feel you) – hopefully, since she’s a woman, she’ll understand even if she doesn’t go through this herself.

            1. coffee cup*

              I hope so! She’s nice and I usually find her quite sensitive. It’s just a bit personal (I’m not coy about periods but you never know how others will react!). I really hope it won’t be an issue but because it can ‘ambush’ me sometimes I thought maybe best to tell her just in case.

    2. bunniferous*

      As a practical matter if you are not familiar with Always super absorbent pads, now is the time to get familiar. I am past the change now but I discovered these during perimenopause and they were a lifesaver. Unfortunately for the cramps I got nothing.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Wait until Wednesday. If you aren’t feeling well, mention it before the meeting. If you’re on the sort of terms with your boss that you can be specific, that’s up to you. It’s not something I’d be comfortable telling my boss the details of, just “not feeling well.”

      I think bringing it up in advance is overkill and kind of wierd.

      1. coffee cup*

        Well, the reason for bringing it up in advance is because I might need to excuse myself if it suddenly starts during the meeting, and that can cause its own problems, too. I don’t want her thinking I’m trivialising by just ‘not feeling well’ and could have waited for a natural break, when I probably would not be able to.

  132. DataQueen*

    Looking for interview advice as the hiring manager, on what questions to ask and what I should be looking out for. I am currently hiring a non-profit researcher for a development department. They will be doing primarily individual profiles on high net worth individuals, and some corporate and foundation profiles. I’m looking for good interview questions that will help me suss out their competence.

    Here’s what I’m interested in:
    – We are a very fast-paced organization. With that comes short deadlines and a lot of volume. It’s going to be a 50-hour type position. We call it entrepreneurial, which here means “be motivated and self starting and don’t need a lot of guidance after your first 90 days or so.” Our CEO and CDO also sometimes drop meetings on us at the last minute, because if the donor is available short notice, we’re going to bend over backwards to meet them! How can i make sure this person is up for extra work when needed?
    – And also speedy! The person I’m replacing was quite slow – He couldn’t do more than 5 event blurbs in a day (which should be “DataQueen works at Company. She went to University of Wherever. Her Facebook shows she’s really into Llama Wrangling and Teapot Design. She’s friends with our board member Bob.” They don’t take too long, unless you have a super common name and then it’s a little trickier). The other day I timed myself doing a few dozen, and I was able to do 14 in 2 hours – and I don’t think i’m a very good researcher. So I definitely want to make sure this person is speedy. What can I ask to suss that out, since other orgs might have different level-of-detail requirements?
    – I’m looking for someone who intuitively knows what to look for. If i tell you the meeting with this donor is about funding our Llama Grazing Advocacy Program, I want to know if they’ve given to other llama programs. My last researcher would say “Bob is on the board of the Llama Institute” and then give me details on their giving to Caterpillar programs – and when I’d look myself, turns out Bob’s a huge llama funder. So I’m looking for someone who has common sense and understands what info the Major Gift Officers need to be successful. How do I determine that?
    – I want someone proactive who’s going to be looking for information on their own. I’m thinking about asking them, “Knowing what you know about us so far, what would your google alerts be set to?”
    – Expanding on that point, i think it will be really important to see how much they research us, and me, before the interview. If they ask basic questions about our board or the organization, that’s a bad sign, right?
    – I’d like to give them a practical assignment to see their skills. I’m thinking about giving them a research assignment for one of the larger family foundations in town. That way I can see how thorough they are (did they include individual giving and history for all the trustees? Did they look for links to our board members?) and the quality of their writing. What kind of guidance should I give them so they don’t fail, and I can be objective? Should I choose a donor I know really well, like our board chair, or do you think I’ll be biased by my insider info and not be able to see it from externally? Or should I choose someone we don’t know, and compare what I can find to what they did?

    Hoping someone who is in the field of Prospect Research (or who manages that position like me) can give me some guidance on what to ask. I’ve never hired this position before – I’ve inherited great ones in the past, so i know what I’m looking for, but not necessarily how to find that – especially outside of a skills assessment assignment.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. WellRed*

      I can’t speak to most of this, but for the test, I’d make sure they had a sample or at least some guidelines to know what sorts of info you are looking for and then, have them research a regular donor. Why make extra work for yourself?

    2. GoT Surviving Character*

      I’m in Research. You might want to pose this question on the Apra listserv. I really hate sample profiles as an exercise. They’re too long for an interview exercise and you don’t have the paid research tools available. I think the best sample exercise I have done to assess my writing was when I was provided a set of information on a prospect and had an hour to write a one page summary. I would give a prospect you know because you want to be able to assess how they told the story and it would be harder if you didn’t know the prospect.

      Random thoughts on other questions:
      -is it possible it took awhile to do bios because they had to make sure the information was correct? A lot of times it’s a time suck to confirm things, especially board service since other bios have conflicting information. (Although your last research does sound on the slower side but event bios are known as a time suck)
      -I’d ask how they handle competing priorities and last minute requests. Then likely ask follow up questions to really dive into this.
      -I wouldn’t ask about alerts or at least not put a lot of weight in their answer. A) I set up a lot my alerts based on my coworker’s needs and B) good candidates could easily give what sounds like a poor answer because they don’t know the organization. If you do ask, focus on their thought process vs the answer (like when people ask how many jelly beans can fit in a car, which is an awful interview question).
      -Not knowing what you mean by basic candidate questions, i usually stick with more basic questions as a candidate. I’m using that time to figure out if I want the position and it’s really hard to get a sense of an organization from the outside.
      -I think asking what interested them about the position and organization is a good time to hear if they did their basic research, which I expect researchers to do.
      – I think my response to most of your questions about how do you figure out X with a candidate is for you to ask them directly. Like the reporting on programmatic interests. “How do/would you summarize philanthropic interests in general and in relation to an organization?”

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      If you are going to ask them to do a donor profile, I’d definitely go with someone like your board chair that it’s clear the org is already connected to and doesn’t actually need a profile done on, to make it clear that you’re using this as a sample to assess their skills rather than an attempt to get free useful work out of candidates.

      I don’t know enough about your field to know if profiles are a reasonable assessment task to ask for or not, but that little piece of it it I felt I could speak to.

      1. DataQueen*

        That’s a great point- it stinks that there are bad employers out there that steal work, so that people get suspicious now!

  133. blackcat*

    So last week I asked if my husband should start job hunting after telling upper management about a large bungled project.
    Guys, it is SO. MUCH. WORSE. than we thought. Unclear how bad, but project manager is gone for good. Everyone on the project has been given next week off with the exception of assigned meetings to come in. There is a full-blown investigation and it looks like there might have been actual malice rather than incompetence.
    It’s clear my husband is fine, but YIKES.

    1. irene adler*

      Wow!

      Just hope things don’t get all muddied up where they end up trying to place blame on your husband for parts of this mess.

      1. blackcat*

        VP has assured my husband that things should be fine for him, but that the project files are so decentralized that they basically need to revoke network access to everyone who was on the project to do the audit (it *should* be possible to shut down all of the project files without locking everyone out of everything. But nope! This is something my husband had raised flags about–the project managers weren’t following the data management processes and procedure). And a company wide email went out with an updated whistleblowing policy (they’ve hired a 3rd party firm).
        So we’re making plans to do a small trip next week, since this is effectively bonus PTO. That, and he’ll work on some applications…

  134. Nessun*

    I could use some advice on traveling for work! Odd situation: my newest role involves working more closely with people in a different office (4 hours by plane). My boss has made it clear he’d like me to have “face time” with these people, they are always glad to see me when I travel to that office, and I enjoy working with them. It’s even close to some family, so I get family time in the evenings or if I fly on a weekend, and I usually go for 4-6 days at a stretch. No one has any issue with the cost.

    My question is, how do I determine the frequency? I’ve been given no guidelines, and when I asked I was told, “well, it is good to see you every now and then to check in, and it’s convenient to call you into meetings in person instead of Skype” – but it’s very much my judgment. So far (6 months in), I’ve been going based on a few major meetings (day-long affairs that make no sense to Skype for), or family events that it’s nice to attend in the evening, meaning I’m at work in that office during the day.

    To be clear – I don’t have meetings all the time when I’m in that office. I can sometimes spend an entire day working away at a desk with no interaction with my people – we all get busy and just keep our heads down. And I don’t love that physical location – my main office location is a newer building, better facilities, newer tech, assigned seating, and the other office is older with hoteling (so I never know what I’ll get).

    Any suggestions/ideas on how to figure out how often I should be in the second office, given that no one is concerned about cost, and they view it as nice to have me around but with no preferred schedule? (If they say visit on [date], I do – but they rarely bother!) Nice problem to have, I guess.

    (I should add, I have zero dependents to worry about – I can travel any time.)

    1. Not Me*

      Have you asked your boss? That kind of situation I’d plan on quarterly “just because” visits and adjust as needed with necessary meetings/visits. Maybe ask your boss if that’s what they had in mind regarding frequency.

      You could also get an idea by asking what your travel budget is. Even though they aren’t concerned about cost, your boss might’ve earmarked $20k for travel for you a year and if each visit is $5k you’d have an idea of what their expectations are. I’ve seen the “don’t worry about cost!” turn into “no more travel this year, we’ve exhausted the budget” in the 4th quarter.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I’m in a similar boat (work remotely from teammates, nice to have face time, but no clear guidance on frequency to go in). I agree with the other comments, tell your manager, “I’m going to go quarterly, unless there’s a specific meeting or need to go in more frequently.”

      “Tell/suggest” rather than “ask” just to signal that you heard/understood your manager when they said it’s up to you.

  135. Office Plant*

    Hey ladies- where are you all finding women’s dress pants and jackets with actual pockets? I live in the US and have checked places like Target, Dillard’s and JC Penny for these, and have had zero luck in finding clothing with pockets large enough to hold a cell phone. The fake pockets drive me bonkers.

    Does anyone know where I can find this unicorn of professional clothes with pockets? Thanks in advance!

    1. Entry Level Blues*

      I highly recommend Uniqlo! I have super short legs so their ankle length dress pants have the perfect shape, length, AND pockets for my budget. I can fit my phone in the pockets pretty easily.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I’ll be honest — most of my success with women’s pants was using a professional shopper-type service. The one I was using was Dia, which is specifically for larger women, so that may or may not be applicable to you. The instruction I gave them was that pockets were absolutely mandatory and I would instantly send back any slacks that didn’t have them. They managed to include at least one pair of slacks with good, roomy pockets in each of my orders.

      Jackets, though? I got nothing. Even the ones that have had pockets were tiny token ones that might hold a couple credit cards at max.

    3. merp*

      I know you said you’ve looked at target, but mine from the ‘a new day’ brand have decent pockets. Not perfect, but not bad. They do come loosely stitched closed like a lot of slacks, which is slightly annoying because you can’t tell how large they are when trying them on, but they do ok for me.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Honestly, I’ve opened a stitched-shut pocket when trying a garment on. They’re usually loose enough that you can just pull the thread out. And I’m probably doing someone a favor, since I’ve seen so many reviews complaining of “fake pockets” when the buyer just didn’t realize there was a real pocket that was sewn shut.

    4. mola*

      Other places to look could be: Banana Republic (Factory), JCrew (Factory), Loft, Ann Taylor, Nordstrom (Rack); if you use Reddit, there’s a good Female Fashion Advice sub that might be able to help as well. :)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I was just coming here to say J. Crew. Gilt was having a sale featuring their clothes yesterday or the day before, and they had a couple pairs of work pants for sale that had normal pockets on them. I think some of their blazers did as well, but I didn’t look too closely at those.

      2. Office Plant*

        Good suggestion with the Reddit board- I might be moving into a management role later this year (fingers crossed) and could use some fashion suggestions/directions.

        I’ll need to check out those other stores- I have several of them where I live, but don’t normally go to them.

    6. Holly*

      Pretty much all of my office pants are from Ann Taylor or LOFT. They are definitely pricier than Target but pretty much every other week they have 40% off etc. Most of them have pockets!

      1. Office Plant*

        Good to know! I can definitely do pricer than Target if needed, and definitely would pay more for those precious pockets. I’ve got some Lofts nearby- time to go pay them a visit.

    7. Schnoodle HR*

      NY&Co and Lane Bryant both have nice dress pants. Lane Bryant’s are most comfortable and they go “down” to a size 10 online.

    8. Nanc*

      If you sew, know someone who does or have a local tailor it’s very easy to add/replace pockets. You can buy iron-on or sew in pocket replacements online or at Walmart or JoAnns.
      Or you could become a clothing designer and create work clothes for women who want nice trousers with pockets (and unhemmed pants so those of us who are tall can hem to order!) and you’ll have a built-in customer base right here!

    9. Toothless*

      I got my work pants from Express! They’re stretchy and the pockets are big enough that I can safely leave my phone in them while riding a bike.

    10. KoiFeeder*

      Well, if you’re a flat rectangle like me, the boy’s section has clothes that fit…

  136. Onto Greener Grass*

    Looking for advice on whether it’d be a faux pas to apply for different positions within the same “company” while there’s still time left in my temp position?

    I was hired as temp to cover someone from maternity leave in a big university’s public health division as an assistant. Though my boss once mentioned possibly a new permanent position opening up, I am not happy with the work environment and already know that another temp is getting it instead (good for him because he’s a way better fit). So I’m updating my resume and looking at job postings on Indeed. However, the entry-level positions that I’m qualified for and am actively searching for… are mostly listed by the same university that I’m currently working at. Would it put me in a weird position if I were to apply to those university listings? I don’t want my current boss to know that I’m looking for another position because that’s just awkward for me.

    Also, the university has different divisions (main university, public health, business, etc.) so maybe I can apply to the non-public health ones since they have different HR departments for each of them? Thank you.

    1. Anon for now*

      How much overlap is it? Hiring can take a while, so if it is possible that they could wait until your temp position is done, I don’t think it matters. If you would definitely be leaving significantly early to take the other position, it may be better to apply to the ones in the other divisions.

      1. Onto Greener Grass*

        My contract is set to end in 4 weeks and I intend to stay until the employee is back from maternity leave. I was looking right now since I definitely remember my job hunts taking at least 3 weeks for any interviews to start rolling out.

        1. Anon for now*

          I don’t see any problem with applying within the same division then. Unless the job ad says that they need someone immediately, it should be fine.

    2. Alianora*

      I think that’s totally fine. Last summer I was a temp, and my manager and coworkers actively encouraged me to job search and even to take time off for interviews while I was still working there.

  137. church lady*

    Anyone who works in higher education, I could use some advice. I have a Skype interview next week for an admin assistant role in the religious studies department of a university. I’m currently an office manager for a small church (mainstream denom) and I’ve worked as an admin for years, but never in academia. I think it’s a professor who is interviewing me (she reached out to me for the job). Are there any special concerns related to working as an admin in a college that I should be aware of? From reading this blog for a few years I’ve noticed that the culture is very different from commercial and business organizations. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!

    1. blink14*

      So actually worked at both a regional office for a major Christian denomination and I’m currently working at a university. In both cases, the work hours were/are pretty structured for non-manager roles, and I don’t see a huge difference in my day to day routine, with the exception of some more meetings at the university job. You may experience a culture shift with the students in particular, particularly if you are coming from a conservative church.

      I think coming from a church admin position, you probably have dealt with some inner church “politics” and academia politics are huge piece of the culture. Getting a sense of how different employee classes are treated/viewed (faculty vs. staff), dealing with major egos, departments that don’t want to work together, major initiatives that come down from the top level leadership, etc, is going to be really important for you. Likely you already know how to read those types of situations and can incorporate that into the job, should you get it. Good luck!

      1. KayEss*

        This. Dealing with university politics and especially faculty is… a morass of weird internal politics and difficult personalities with no reason to change their ways. Depending on how your church is run, you may see a lot of similarities–is there a cabal of long-time members (usually unassuming-looking old ladies) who secretly have absolute veto power over any decision made at your church, and you’re able to sidestep, soothe, and otherwise wrangle them in such a way as to accomplish things? You may actually be uniquely positioned to thrive in an academia admin position.

        1. church lady*

          Wow, thank you both for the specific ideas. I work for a mainstream American Protestant denomination but one that is currently being cleaved by an internal struggle over equality issues. The particular church I work for is on the liberal/progressive side, so I don’t expect a huge cultural change at a university. But as you suggest, politics is embedded everywhere, and there are absolutely women of a certain age who wield an enormous amount of power and more so that the pastors. It’s been a revelation to me. Your advice gives me a lot of comfort and more confidence going in to the interview. I’m so glad I wrote in. Thanks so much.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Some things I noticed were different between corporate and higher ed environments:

      -The hours: Day-to-day, in higher education I could rely on a 8:30-5 or whatever work hour with no strong expectation to stay late or check email after I left or on weekends. There were, however, often evening or weekend events that my job dictated that I be at, so while the bulk of my weekends were my own, there were a few that I had to give over entirely to work.

      -Bureaucracy: In higher ed, there were SO MANY RULES in place. I couldn’t just… buy something I needed. I couldn’t just sign a contract for a vendor we wanted to hire. We had to go through a very strict and very time-consuming process for all this stuff.

      -The personal investment: Depending on the school or the office within the school, there was an expectation that you truly believed in the program/the students/the faculty/whatever. People were very invested and enthusiastic about the populations or programs they served, in a way that you don’t always find at corporations where you’re often hired for your skills, not your personal investment.

    3. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Faculty are always right. Get used to it. Also, there is a *huge* difference in the way that faculty and staff are treated. Staff are often considered second-class citizens.

      You really have to be a high-level staff person (admins are not) to not be considered a second-class citizen.

      1. KayEss*

        I actually knew someone who started off as teaching faculty, then moved into a departmental administration role, and eventually through a series of unfortunate events and obnoxious management decisions wound up in a completely different area of the university doing work that supported other faculty. Not very long into that position, she noted that she had previously never understood when university staff (including me) complained about faculty in general… but now she did, and faculty were, in fact, awful.

        It’s not even usually that they’re mean–a lot of them are perfectly lovely people. They just trend toward self-absorption and extreme cluelessness about the needs and realities of the wider organization.

    4. blackcat*

      One of the biggest issues in academia is that people who have no business being in management are in management roles.
      The work is also very cyclical. Start of the semester means one type of work, middle of the semester another, and the end yet another. There’s some work that’s constant, of course, but if you have any interactions with students (or scheduling courses), you’ll have this odd cyclical stuff.

    5. OtterB*

      In some ways it will be like going from a small company to a large one. Less “you do everything” and more “you do this subset of things but you coordinate with the dean’s office for this, with maintenance for that, with the admin of the department on the next floor down for this, and with student services for this other thing.” So a lot of internal interaction – might be bureaucratically dysfunctional, might not be.

  138. mola*

    Long rant-ish/advice request ahead.
    I’ve been at a job I love for about 5 years (left for a year and came back). It’s aligned with my education, experience, and values, and I’ve made life long friends here. I’ve stepped up my game since coming back 2 years ago, and have been given more project management responsibility. There have also been a lot of mgmt and staffing changes since then.
    There were 2 people working on teapot design, something I had education and experience in, but it was only one component of my jack-of-all-trades role. They both have more experience (by 10-15 yrs) than I do. In the last month, they’ve both left, leaving me the only person in the office who can design teapots. Boss and grand boss have talked to me about creating a new Teapot Designer role, and I was explicit about looking for management and leadership experience. We agreed on a rough timeline for more formal discussions. Sounds good right?
    But on reflecting, I’m frustrated about the big picture. I’ve realized that my rewards have been additional work (somewhat okay, as I wanted more projects to manage), but despite all the acknowledgements of good work, there’s never been a merit-based raise or promotion or opportunity to manage other staff. Part of me thinks that if the other designers hadn’t left, this new role wouldn’t have come my way, and I’m sort of a… ‘what else are we going to do?’ hire. I also recently learned I’m not being paid comparably to my peers. Not by much, but still – I’m an additional level of frustrated now. I have a graduate degree and ten years of experience, and they agree that I’m doing good work.

    Tell me to not bite the hand, please. Or are these red flags (including management or my attitude) I should be looking for external opportunities?

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Agreed! While not ideal, management isn’t always as proactive as they (should? could?) be about rewarding good performance.

  139. confused*

    I’m a new manager who is friends with my direct reports on social media, an artifact of our previous relationship as colleagues. Any tips on how to handle a direct report complaining about work on Facebook, where I can see their posts? Right now my instinct is to just unfriend them and say nothing (I’m planning to unfriend regardless), since the complaints weren’t made in a work settings, but some of the things posted have been particularly unprofessional and hurtful and I’m not sure if it’s something I should address. Since the posts were technically private — if visible to me, their boss — I’m not sure that it counts as a performance issue. If the posts had been on, say, a public Twitter account with their name and our company listed in the bio, that would obviously be a different situation. What would you do?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s not a performance issue unless they’re saying something discriminatory or harassy about colleagues or something like “I burned all my work files in the woods but am not going to tell my boss.” You should ignore it and unfriend them all.

      1. confused*

        Thank you, that’s my gut instinct as well. It’s frustrating because the comments have been very emotional and mean (not towards colleagues, just towards me) in a place where they know that I’ll see them. It’s definitely changed my opinion of the employee for the worse, whether that’s fair or not. Learn from me, new managers, and unfriend your former coworkers immediately!

        1. Holly*

          To clarify, these hurtful comments are about *you*? I’m pretty sure that would count as “harassy about colleagues.” Allison, please chime in if I’m misinterpreting!

            1. confused*

              yeah, I think it’s too indirect to be harassment. It’s more that I’ll ask them to do something, they’ll get snappy with me, and then immediately post on Facebook about how their job makes them hate their life/lose all will to live/ or something similarly emotional and seemingly, by the timing, in response to my attempts to manage them. Maybe mean isn’t teh right word, so much as distressing and unprofessional. I’ve gone ahead and unfriended him, but am having trouble not factoring it into how I perceive him at work.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Yep, there’s nothing to formally address here, but it’s understandable that it’s affecting how you see him.

                How is his work generally? People who do this regularly usually have other issues, ones that you *can* (and should) address.

    2. coffee cup*

      What’s your company’s policy on this? I fell foul of a non-existent policy when my work (who followed me on Twitter without me realising and without reciprocation) pulled me up about a tweet I made about a work course I was struggling with. What I said about it wasn’t ideal, but I didn’t mention or insult my company (never would!) and none of my social media is linked to work. I felt if they’d had a solid policy, it would have been easier for them to deal with this and for me to know where the line was drawn.

      How is this person’s work? Are there any other issues? If not, and there’s no clear guideline, I’d probably unfriend and leave it. They may have forgotten you’re their Facebook friend or not realised that the relationship really has changed now you’re their boss. It can be hard for others to adjust and realise some things aren’t appropriate any more! I refused my boss’s FB friend invitation, even though she’s a lovely person, because I have no interest in connecting work and social media, which is personal.

      1. confused*

        That’s the weird thing — they were the one who originally added me, and they comment and like posts of mine regularly, and even occasionally contact me via Facebook messenger. They definitely know that we’re friends! But, no, it doesn’t violate our company’s social media guidelines, since their posts are technically private, I think.

        1. coffee cup*

          Ah, it sounds like maybe they aren’t really aware that now you’re their manager it’s not really the same any more? Is that possible? I have a friend who thinks this way about her job. She doesn’t understand why you can’t be friends (like regular, usual friends) with your manager. Well, you *can*, but might not be ideal.

          1. coffee cup*

            Just saw your comment above. They’re being mean about you? Hmm. I would probably not be one to vent about my manager on Facebook, but anyway. I think best out of sight, out of mind. Let them do that stuff but step back from it. If it turns out their posts aren’t private, I think that’s a bit off.

            1. valentine*

              He’s using Facebook like a journal. You can let this go and learn to detach. It’s more about him than you, even if he doesn’t know it, and especially if he reacted that way when you were peers. Griping about work/the boss is a thing, and a necessary one.

  140. Taking Forever*

    Is this timeline considered pretty normal with most people’s experiences?

    5 weeks ago -> Verbally accepted a job offer via phone from manager

    1 week ago -> Received official offer letter from HR via email but noted that offer is contingent on background check clearing

    Today -> Received notification about my background check process got started today; will take around 2-3 weeks to clear

    For me, this has been a very long waiting game and my previous experiences with hiring has been a lot quick, with 3 weeks being the long I’ve ever waited. While the total time that I’ll have waited to start this new job would be ~7-8 weeks, depending on how quickly my background check clears. I’m so confused especially because my starting date (job is a bit time-sensitive because it’s for a specific project) has been pushed back 3! times now since the background check didn’t clear. While my end date has stayed the same, so I’m going to be working less hours = less money.

    Would it be rude if I were to drop out of the accepted offer if something like this happens again? Not sure when it would be best to dip and how to word it without coming off as pissed or passive aggressive.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s not worth dropping out over this, unless you get a better offer you want to take in the meantime. Some companies are this slow.

      1. Taking Forever*

        Woah, thank you for your response Alison! If you don’t mind me asking further – is it OK to keep looking and interviewing for another position during this time period of waiting? Especially if I see that newer, better positions are listed? I feel like I’d be a big jerk if I accepted the background check and then left in the middle of it, but my bank account is draining a lot quicker than expected.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I did this when my current company was taking forever to approve my hiring. The thought was, if I got another offer that was better and more in line with what I wanted to do, I’d chuck the deuces to the company dragging their feet and move on. I ultimately did get another offer, though it wasn’t stunning or better than the one I was waiting on, but that spurred current company into moving quicker to get me approved. Plus, the process of still applying to things helped me take my mind off my company’s glacial approval process. They did almost lose me though and they know that – they try to get me everything I ask for right away now, lol.

          1. Taking Forever*

            Unfortunately I’m a new graduate so hiring would probably just drop me like a hot potato instead of trying to keep me :’) How did you frame your conversation with hiring about the other job offer?

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              I just contacted the HR rep and politely said that I know she told me it would take some time to get my hiring approved, but I was just offered another position that I was also interested in. I told her that I would love to work for her company, but I had already passed on another job in anticipation of being hired for this one, and I wasn’t going to take the risk of passing on another job that was ready to go for this position that may not even get approved.

              She got on the line with everyone and their mother and got my hiring approved by the end of the day. That was it.

        2. MonteCristo85*

          I’m not Allison (clearly, lol) but there is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing your search until you actually have the new job (past the contingencies). If you aren’t ready to give notice to your company, you shouldn’t feel bad continuing your search.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Agreed! If they take too long and lose you to someone else, that’s on them. Your offer isn’t fully finalized until the contingencies are lifted, so go right on job searching.

    2. Anonymous Poster*

      I’ve had companies take this long. I didn’t stop interviewing and in one case, ended up taking another offer because the company simply was taking too long. I wanted the slow-rolling company’s job a bit more, but also read the tea leaves and thought that their slow processes may presage internal processes. I could be 100% wrong, but ended up somewhere else and was very happy there too.

      I’d recommend keeping looking – you don’t know when this might wrap up, and if they ask, you could always say that their process was taking a long time, and another great opportunity fell into your lap.

      1. Taking Forever*

        Glad you found a better offer! Were you also actively sending out new applications for listings as well while waiting or only interviewing during the wait time?

        1. Anonymous Poster*

          Sending out applications. The offer I took was one of those applications, because that company moved much faster through their hiring processes.

          They were also very small, while the other company I was waiting on was medium sized. They were also near the end of their fiscal year though too, so I’d bet there was budget wrangling and funding issues they were trying to sort out before making an offer. It makes complete sense, but I think there was more at play than just cumbersome processes.

  141. Bad Saleswoman*

    District Boss dropped by our (kiosk-in-a-larger-store) location today to give us tips on effective selling (which I hate bc my reactio to any such thing as a customer is an internal “fuck all the way off and let me buy bananas.”) HIGHLIGHT though:

    District Boss: let’s practice cable pitches. [Bad Saleswoman], you be the customer; it’ll be harder since you’re a woman
    Me: [struggles not to react to THAT]

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I had this similarly sexist exchange with a senior manager (not mine and we have never met) recently:
      I’m going to visit his team at their site. Part of the planning involved all of us on this call together with my senior manager.
      I mentioned I was looking forward to the trip as I haven’t been to that area in several years.
      SM says, “Well, don’t get your hopes up, we’re not a great looking crew!”
      After the weirdly long silence that followed, SM says, “Just kidding, hey, I’m just trying to inject a little humor.”

      Ugh.

  142. CreativeCat*

    Would like some advice/opinions? Basically – was I too abrupt with this person?

    I recently updated my linkedin with my new marketing job (not high level) and I was almost immediately sent an invitation to connect and a personal message from the CEO of a company that our overseas office has worked with on a project or two (but not us yet) trying to pitch their services to me – I didn’t reply. A couple of days later after they had figured out my work email address they emailed me to pitch their services again. I sent them a polite reply asking them to take me off their mailing list. They then emailed again to say that I’m not on a mailing list and that they know people in my office including my manager and again, and again tried to pitch what they can do with lots of examples. What really annoyed me was their signing off with a ‘if you are not interested ok, but would just hate to cut the conversation short given the multitude of ways we can help – thoughts?’

    It just came across as so pushy and it really annoyed me. I responded again politely just to asking them to please stop emailing me and I bcc copied in my manager. I don’t know, I was tired and I’m in ill health at the moment and fed up with everyone pushing me all day as we are very short-staffed and have to fend off demands all the time at the moment. I then started thinking about – what if we do end up working on a project with them. What if when I move on from this job I run into them again – they are fairly well-known in the marketing commercial space and my last company worked with them. Now I’m thinking I should have said something more like ‘sorry I can’t help you as I don’t make the decisions’ etc. Was I too abrupt with them?

    1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I don’t think it usually pays to be rude to people, but I think it would be a stretch to ever call your response rude. If you do end up working with them eventually, chances are it will be thru the people in your company that already have contacts with people in their company; ie, I doubt anyone will even think about your email or response.

      Think of it this way. Even if it does “come up” later on, it won’t actually come up. The likelihood of this person, or anyone they work with, actually bringing this up to you is almost nil. So, while in the future I might go with something different (I usually say, we’re not interested at this time, but I’ll keep your info and contact you if we change our minds in the future), what’s done is done, there’s nothing you can do about it, and it was by no means a rude enough reply that you’ll ever hear about it again. Anything beyond that is so far beyond your control that it’s just not useful to think about!

      1. CreativeCat*

        Yeah you’re right, I guess it wasn’t really all that rude. I just wish I’d responded slightly differently, but probably not worth worrying about now.

        1. valentine*

          You didn’t have to reply at all. He was manipulating you/sadfacing.

          I really hate when people end with “…thoughts?” It’s my nails on a chalkboard.

    2. Rey*

      In my office, we never respond to email solicitations. When we are interested in a product, we’ll contact them but it’s completely separate from cold-emails. If seeing their emails stresses or annoys you, I recommend an email filter to automatically mark them as read and move them to a folder that you won’t ever see. You are not being rude here.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      My go to is always “sorry – I am not involved with those types of decisions”
      And no I do not connect them with the person who is in charge

      I don’t think you were too abrupt but since it is bothering you it might be a good idea to have a script ready since you feel you could head that way easily.

    5. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I’m not in the marketing department at my company, but my title has the word marketing in it, so I get a ton of these, too. If it’s an email, I ignore. If it’s a call, I tell them that I don’t manage that area, and that company policy doesn’t allow me to provide colleague contact info cold. Our company doesn’t actually have that policy, but it shuts them down as it shifts the blame from me to “the company” as a larger body.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      No, you’re fine. Being direct to a pushy salesperson is not rude.

      They are trying to sell you stuff, you don’t have to suck up to them.

      If you wind up working with them later, you will be the client and they will be sucking up to you.

  143. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

    Hey nonprofit-eers! I work for a very new nonprofit (only in existence since around April). We have a “starter” board, but we plan to build it out into a more robust board with people in our field (macroeconomics and Fed policy). One of our big issues is recessions (preventing them, making them less painful for workers), and I proposed an idea: that our Board could be comprised of a handful of people we really respect on this topic, and at some regular interval (likely quarterly) they could issue an opinion of the Board on whether the next recession is likely to happen soon, what the timing looks like, etc. This would be both a public statement meant to have an impact in our field, as well as a topline piece of strategic guidance for our organization.

    My ED is very open to the idea, but wanted me to dig around for examples of other nonprofit boards that function similarly. What are some cool boards you know of out there? I know there are lots of “working boards” but ours would not be that; this would be a specific deliberation and statement they publish regularly, but they would still just be involved at the oversight and governance levels, not in day-to-day operations.

    1. board member here*

      I don’t have any examples but one thing I would consider is that you would be raising the bar for board service when it is already sometimes tough to get the board members you want. Some prospective board members might be willing to serve but not willing to attach their name to a prediction, especially a group prediction that they don’t have full control over. You might lose prospective board members who don’t want to sign on to that. I would suggest separating your board from this. If you want to issue a prediction do that separately with a separate group. (Board members could still be part of that if they chose.)

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      This sounds more like think-tank work, not board work, to me. In my 15+ years of experience with non-profits in the mid-Atlantic, no names come to me off the top of my head where a board would be generating a quarterly white paper — maybe a short substantive article in the org’s newsletter, but not something requiring research and presenting a deep analysis and recommendations.

      I’d echo the concern that you risk losing interest in board service if this is going to be expected of board members.

  144. Rectilinear Propagation*

    Questions about Professional Summaries:

    1. Are they still a thing? It’s actually news to me that I need one but searching the site for “Professional Summary” shows Alison recommending them since at least 2013 with the latest mention in 2017. Should all/most people do them or does it depend?

    2. Is it important to not repeat information found in the rest of the resume? It seems like you would if it’s a summary but a site that answered the question above with “it depends” suggested it might be pointless to do one if you’d just be repeating yourself.

    3. Bullet points for a professional summary: yay/nay/depends?

    4. If my resume is already at 1 full page (with narrow margins), is it OK to go to two pages to get the professional summary in there? (15 years experience over 3 jobs.)

    1. Holly*

      I’ve never heard of a professional summary. I’m in the government/legal field so someone please chime in if there is a such thing in other fields.

    2. Bananatiel*

      Not sure what your field is but in the creative industry it’s very strange and I don’t recommend it at all even if it’s been recommended to you (on the off chance you’re a creative).

      A friend of mine added one to her resume as a designer which I’d never seen before– it prompted me to ask my sister (a higher ed professional who specializes in career counseling/coaching) and she said that she only sees them in scientific/academic industries to summarize a body of research or study. But I will say, my friend repeated a lot of the info already in her resume in her summary and it made the summary feel even more strange– so not knowing much about them I’d say that repeating information will likely leave a bad impression.

    3. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I like professional summaries because they give me a quick narrative about who you are and what you’re doing in front of me. But they’re not necessary, definitely don’t go to 2 pages to fit one in, and it should be a narrative paragraph, not bullets.

      That being said, if your resume is really crammed, to the point of being hard to scan, you might be better off going to 2 pages, adding a summary, and doing proper margins/adding white space.

  145. DaniCalifornia*

    I am not going to outlast my new coworker. I’ve already been job searching awhile bc this job is 1,000% toxic and my supervisor has just hired yet another TERRIBLE coworker. First week she asked me how to attach a file to an email. Today she asked me how to save an attachment from an email to a folder on her computer. YOU GUYS! I told her drag and drop or open the PDF and save as. She responds, “So I don’t have to print it out and scan it and save it?”

    F!@#$%^&*()_

    We use 5 separate software programs in our daily use besides the regular MS Office. This job is so technology focused that I’d rather hire someone who knows technology and learns it quickly than someone who knows taxes. Taxes (the basics/admin side of it) you can teach. I don’t have any patience for someone who essentially lied on their resume saying they had basic MS Office skills and they can’t even attach a document without help!

    1. Catsaber*

      The printing, scanning, and saving an already digital file just really hurts my soul. (And I’ve seen plenty of people do it here at the university where I work.)

      My former boss had the same bad hiring practices….he focused waaaaay too much on one specific criterion that was really not as important as he thought it was. So we ended up with lots of terrible hires.

    2. Sneaky Ninja for this one*

      Oh dear. I had some print/scan/attach people, too. Save a tree, dude.

    3. coffee cup*

      Reminds me of a guy who used to work at my workplace and about 8 months after he started asked me how to find a folder on the server. The server we use daily and where all files are kept. EIGHT MONTHS. He was in his 20s, too (no judgement on age, just unusual in my experience!).

  146. Staying In The Lane*

    My new manager chewed me out yesterday because I mentioned to her that I emailed HR about when I’ll be getting my ID badge. She spent a good 15 minutes explaining to me that there’s a process for everything and that I need to learn to wait or else it’ll complicate things. But it’s just a stinking badge? It’s been almost a month since I started this new job and I haven’t gotten my ID badge, which I need when going around to different departments and facilities. Was I doing something inappropriate for politely emailing Cersei about the current process of my badge and other login credentials I’ll need? This is a new working environment for me so I’d appreciate it if someone could help me understand how to stay in my lane and not get another lecture.

    1. Schnoodle HR*

      As a new hire you don’t want to rock the boat. Seems like your boss feels like you weren’t patient enough and went over them. That said, a month for something you need to do your job is a long time and if I was the HR receiving end, I’d wonder why in the world it has taken so long. And that could be it, maybe you got your boss in trouble? But wouldn’t know without knowing the culture and processes. Maybe it really does take that long to get it.

      1. Staying In The Lane*

        It was kind of funny since the HR person later thanked me for emailing her. She didn’t know why it was taking too long either! While my other new coworker got hers weeks ago (we were hired a week apart). I know for sure that this doesn’t get my boss in trouble so that’s why I was confused by the weirdly aggressive response.

        But I am definitely taking to heart about not rocking the boat. I’ll just stay quiet for now…

    2. Bananatiel*

      I mean, maybe it would have been helpful/more beneficial to you to go to your manager first (as in “Hey manager, I still don’t have my badge which is preventing me from getting to [department/facility] to do [critical job function], are there any steps I need to take to receive it?”). I like using that phrasing because I’m volunteering to take action, which I’d rather do, but it gives the manager an opening to correct you or say she’ll deal with it first.

      … But her reaction still seems very extreme, especially if HR received your request warmly. It might seem like making a big deal out of nothing but I would maybe ask for clarification on how you should handle similar matters going forward, if she has specific steps, so be it, follow them. If she doesn’t, that might be a sign of larger organization issues or control issues on her part. It’s true that you don’t want to ruffle feathers unnecessarily and it sounds like you’re unsure of why what you did is wrong– so step 1 is learning why you were wrong!

      1. Staying In The Lane*

        Thanks, I will try to use the different phrasing going forward – I like how it shows that I’m keeping track of things but not trying to overstep any boundaries by asking someone higher up than me.

        The manager previously told me that I shouldn’t bother her for small tasks and now got mad about this badge thing, which is why I got so weirded out by her response. When I pushed further about this during the one-sided conversation, she just kept talking about how I should wait. But isn’t a month for an important badge pretty dang long ;)

    3. Colette*

      That’s a weird reaction on her part – I would have done the same thing (and probably sooner). Unless you were demanding or rude in your email, I’d think she’d be glad that you were being proactive and not leaving it up to her to fix.

    4. Jadelyn*

      That’s a bit…overly territorial, but not entirely unique in my experience? Some places are very rigid in their processes; sometimes there’s a reason for it, sometimes it’s just because the people running the process are Like That about it. It sounds like you’re working in a place where processes are more on the rigid end and people treat a request for information like an attempt at an end-run around the process, and as irritating as that is, it’s good information to have.

      I’d suggest, in the future, always starting with your manager. Make sure to lay out the business impact of whatever process thing you need – like the fact that not having your ID is causing issues when you go to other facilities – and ask who you can talk to for more information. She might still tell you to wait, but at least you can’t be accused of trying to circumvent a process. You’re just asking her for help with a work problem that she should be helping with.

      1. Staying In The Lane*

        Thanks for your perspective, I can kind of see how my actions could’ve been taken negatively. It’s a bit frustrating because HR took the email really positively and was happy that I took the initiative to ask (which is not common apparently?), with the implication that it could’ve taken longer for my badge to be processed if I hadn’t brought it up :/ But I’ll try to keep my head down and not rock the boat, as another commentator pointed out. Also, I like the advice about presenting it to my manager about the business impact! Will definitely use in the future.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Your manager is a loon. In fact, she should have been the one to follow-up on this for you. You can’t walk around in what I presume is a secured building without a dang employee badge. The fact that you’ve been forced to do just that for over a month is crazy.

    6. DaniCalifornia*

      Sounds over the top to me. Sure she might have been annoyed that you didn’t ask her first, but she could have said ‘Oh for future stuff like that you can always come to me first.’ Especially since HR was nice about it. It also does feel like an onboarding process that many bosses would have said ‘Oh not sure what’s going on with that, you should check with HR’ or wouldn’t even want to deal with it.

      When you say new working environment, do you mean first job out of college, completely different field, or went from something like direct customer service to 9-5 office? Or something else? Just wondering since you asked about understanding how to stay in your lane. And maybe you did something completely innocent and it’s your manager who was out of line.

      1. Staying In The Lane*

        New working environment as in I’ve never worked for such a huge organization before with many regulations, policies, etc.. I’ve previously worked in a smaller private company as my first job out of college, where taking initiative and following up was a big positive (since we were all so busy that we sometimes forgot to do something) and I usually knew everyone in the office even if they’re not in my specialty/department. So I’d know Jon from HR and email him every once in a while about the status of XYZ without having to ask for permission from my managers.

        My current manager previously mentioned that I need to understand about how bigger companies work, so I thought maybe it was me not understanding the norms and etiquette of general workplaces and that my previous place was an outlier.

        1. Not Me*

          Big companies don’t take a month to get your ID badge in a secured environment (locked doors, elevators, etc) and login credentials. You should have that on day 1, I’d even be surprised by a week wait for that.

          I’d be willing to guess your boss may have dropped the ball here and that’s why they were so upset you went to HR.

        2. Jadelyn*

          This context is really helpful, actually. In general, the bigger the place, the more process- and rule-driven things tend to be, simply because when you’re working at scale, you don’t have the mental bandwidth or the people-power to keep track of exceptions and workarounds and casual requests. An HR rep serving 100 employees will have a very different experience – and therefore a different set of needs and processes – than an HR rep serving 1,000 employees.

          My company is actually just making this shift – we’ve got about 750 employees across almost 30 locations, but many of them are long-timers who are resistant to change and so they still want HR processes to function like they did when it was a couple dozen people in one building. And people get huffy when we have to hold the line and tell them we can’t make an exception for them, only we do that because we’ve learned if you make a couple exceptions, suddenly word gets around and everyone wants to be special and do things their way instead of the new way, and before you know it you’re back to the wild west days of no process and things start falling through the cracks.

          All this is to say, you should expect and get comfortable with more bureaucracy in a big company, because it’s a necessary evil past a certain size – but a simple request for a status update on a process shouldn’t be *that* big of a deal, and your manager is being weirdly rigid about that.

  147. Aphrodite*

    Let’s talk VACATION.

    I work at a two-year community college in California as a classified (union) staff member. Among the other wonderful benefits is the ability to save up to two years’ worth of vacation time. You must use any excess by the end of each fiscal year since the college has to pay you for it if you do not, and they do not budget for it.

    I tend to hoard my vacation time so I always take Fridays off in June (and sometimes May as well). I admit that spoiled me. I wish I could go to four days a week permanently. Alas, while I could those would only last for about 14 months, and I am not sure of my retirement so I really don’t want to use them up yet.

    It makes me wonder what your company’s vacation policies are. How much do you get? Do you save it or use it as it comes. Do you have any preferences as to how you use it (for a number of three or even four day weekends or in bigger chunks?

    Thanks!

    1. Sneaky Ninja for this one*

      We are in many different states. Some employees are use it or lose it. I’m in one of the six states that says vacation time is a benefit, and once given, it can’t be taken away. I get 5 weeks a year, which is 200 hours. However, company policy says that us six state people can’t have more than 120 at a time and we can only roll 120 year to year. Once I start to get close to the 120 mark, I use some. I tend to try to keep quite a bit in the bank, in case I get super sick, have an emergency, get let go, leave on my own accord and want some financial cushion, etc.

      Those of us in the six states get our time added to each pay period. Whatever our yearly accrual is divide by 26 pay cycles. The other ones get one lump sum at the beginning of the year. There are advantages and disadvantages either way. But I’d rather accrue as I go and not lose it at the end of the year.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I use mine as I need it. I don’t like vacations and constant long weekends would drive me mad. But if I wanted to take Fridays off for a few months, it wouldn’t be an issue. This is also due to my flexibility too, so there’s really no expectations for me when taking vacation/time off comes into view. The only task that I really can’t let sit and mellow is payroll, so on a payroll day, I make sure I’m here. So that’s one day, every other week to make sure my butt is here. Worse case, it can be handled by someone else so if I really wanted to, then it would be a fine enough conversation.

      I can roll over up to one week of PTO and one week of sick pay each year. I don’t horde but I don’t rush to use them either, so they tend to roll over a bit each year. This helped with the fact that I was snowed in for almost a week this year and it didn’t demolish my current PTO bucket, since I had the roll over sitting there.

    3. Bananatiel*

      I accrue two days a month but max out at ~45 days and after that, you lose additional accrued time. I previously worked in a different department at my university and the culture there was never to take vacation time, which became problematic as I bumped up against the max time. I had some tense discussions with my boss but we finally worked out her “allowing” me to take two days a month to avoid losing my earned benefit! That was kind of the beginning of the end of that job…

      I switched jobs to a different department and my vacation time went with me– new department was mortified at how much time I had banked and told me I needed to use as much as possible in the next couple of years to get down to a “reasonable” amount, ha! Not sure if that’s really possible since I obviously have work to do in my new job, too. But my tentative vacation time plan is to take 3 week-long vacations a year and maybe 4-5 long weekend type vacations. I like the idea of getting many small breaks from work to keep myself feeling refreshed. I’m incredibly fortunate that I’m finally able to do some of the traveling I’ve been longing for the last few years!

    4. JanetM*

      Copy-paste from my university’s policy guide:

      Eligible regular full-time exempt staff and 12-month faculty earn and accrue annual leave at the rate of 16 hours per month. A maximum of 336 hours may be carried forward from one calendar year to the next.

      Eligible regular non-exempt staff earn and accrue annual leave as follows:

      a. 8 hours per month worked for the first five years of service. A maximum of 240 hours may be carried forward from one calendar year to the next.

      b. 12 hours per month worked during the sixth year and through the tenth year of service. A maximum of 288 hours may be carried forward from one calendar year to the next.

      c. 14 hours per month worked during the eleventh year and through the twentieth year of service. A maximum of 312 hours may be carried forward from one calendar year to the next.

      d. 16 hours per month worked with more than twenty years of service. A maximum of 336 hours may be carried forward from one calendar year to the next.

    5. Jadelyn*

      We accrue on a biweekly basis (running alongside our payroll), with no rollover or reset dates. New staff get 3 weeks/year, once you’ve been here 6 years it goes up to 4 weeks/year, prorated for part-time (so a FT new person would get 120 hrs, but someone working 20 hrs/wk would get 60 hrs).

      We do cap accruals at your annual amount + 1 week (so a full-timer in their first couple years would stop accruing at 160 hours), but there’s no “use it or lose it” because California (accrued unused vacation time is counted as wages and you can’t take away something someone has already “earned”, but you are allowed to force people to use up their time or cap accruals).

      We also have a policy that allows people to go into the negative in their vacation balance by up to 40 hours, if their manager and the VP over their function agree to allow it. It’s pretty rare for someone to do it, though.

      I tend to be a “take a few days here and there” type, mostly because this is the only job I’ve had where I even got vacation time and I tend to forget it’s an option, also historically I’ve been the only person on my team who knows how to do certain things (I’ve created documentation, but it tends to fall on deaf eyes as far as I can tell) so they get antsy about me being gone for too long at a stretch. I try to take a full week once a year or so though, my mental health seems to need that.

    6. CatCat*

      At my level of seniority, I get 15 hours/month of PTO. I use about half of what I accrue every year. This is on purpose because I do want to save up to the cap. It’s basically part of my emergency fund for if I lose my job or have to take extended leave.

    7. Catsaber*

      I’m a state employee in Texas at one of the universities. We get vacation that increases in hours/rollover when you hit service milestones. I’m about to hit my 10 year milestone, so I’ll get 11 hours a month with 292 hours yearly rollover. I also get separate sick PTO – 8 hours a month that I never lose, and can bank as much as I want (but the amount I earn each month never increases).

      I’ve always hoarded my PTO, partly because of bad habits/bad bosses, and then in order to use it on my maternity leaves. Now that I’m done having babies and I have a boss that actively encourages us to use PTO, I’m not sure what to do with myself. I’m so used to *not* taking any vacations or time for myself that I feel guilty about even taking sick days. I have to stop myself from working when I’m sick because I had previous bosses that expected that (and penalized if we didn’t). Now that I have a good boss, he doesn’t care if we do random days or big chunks, just as long as we have coverage. I typically only take a couple random days here and there, but I think this fall I’m going to plan a real 2-week vacation.

    8. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I have unlimited PTO and lots of flexibility. So, there’s no accrual (and no payout) but we’re actively working to have a 4 day work week, so fingers crossed that things go well! We also close the office between Xmas and New Years, which is a wonderful practice; everyone takes _at least one_ week of vacation a year, and when everyone is off, there’s way less pressure to pop into your email on your phone, or whatever. We strongly encourage other weeks of vacation as well, and intend to be really generous with other kinds of leave (we’re new, so some of it just hasn’t really come up yet), but I would say that week between Xmas and New Year’s is one of the benefits I would miss the most if it were taken away at this point.

    9. Lena Clare*

      I get the equivalent of 6 weeks, plus the 5 bank holidays here which all non-essential employees have in addition t0 their leave entitlement. Our organisation also closes our offices early during christmas week, and shuts it completely for christmas eve, which is an additional ‘bank holiday’ type leave.

      I usually take a week off at a time, but occasionally will spread it out over 2 weeks especially if there are bank holidays. I already have one non working day per week as I am part time. Over xmas this year I only needed to use 1 day’s leave for about 10 days off when I rearranged my schedule a bit, for example.

      I also hate working in the winter, because I have to drive for my job and I don’t like the roads in the dark and the rain so I save up at least 2 weeks, sometimes 3 weeks for the period between January and the end of March. I always have the second week in Jan off – it’s great, you should try it if you can lol! Everyone else has gone back to work after the holidays, and feeling miserable because they ate and spent too much and are now on a diet, but I am just winding down for my own break away. I love it. Plus I avoid the ‘happy new year’ greetings which weirdly go on for weeks after the new year :)

      1. Lena Clare*

        Oh and we have to use it up within the year. If we want to carry it over, we can only carry over 1 week and we must have special dispensation from our managers. I have never been able to carry it over, so it really has to be some kind of emergency.

    10. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I get 33 days a year of paid time off, which is a bucket of six holidays, sick time and vacation all lumped together. Bonus: I work fully remotely, so I’ve been sick enough that I felt the need to call off working once in five years, plus I have the flexibility to work on holidays if I want to and save the time for a different occasion. (Like, I always do my big Thanksgiving shindig on the Saturday, so I work a half or full day on Thursday and save the time off.) I accrue by pay period, so I keep a running spreadsheet of accruals and planned usage, and I try to always keep at least a week in reserve. We don’t have any use it or lose it policy, but we do stop accruing at 360 hours in reserve.

      I tend to use my time off in 3-5 day chunks, usually (but not always) around weekends. A few weeks ago I took off W/Th/F and M for a trip. In October I’m doing one Wed-Sun trip (so three days off) and one Sat-Tues trip (so two days off). I usually travel 6-7 times a year, and usually between January and September; these October trips are unusual for me. My husband only gets two weeks PTO (vacation and sick, but not including holidays) so we take a week together at our anniversary in September and he uses his other week one day here and there over the rest of the year.

    11. Llellayena*

      I get 3 weeks (15 days) to use for the year (no accrual, available at the start of a year based on my hire date). It’s use it or lose it, or more accurately use it or we pester you to take it. I have a hard time figuring out what to use vacation for so I take one full week, one 5 day weekend, and spread the rest out (often in the last month before I would lose it, because oops).

    12. Kat in VA*

      I get five weeks of use it or lose it PTO, along with 12 paid holidays. We also get 20 hours of volunteer time, which is nice.

      I’m having a hard time using my PTO (I’ve used maybe 4 days and we’re almost into August) because I’m incredibly overloaded, which means that either (a) I work while on PTO which negates the point of TAKING the PTO or (b) I’m hit with an avalanche backlog of work when I get back.

  148. Alphabet Pony*

    Etiquette / who pays question.

    When my new manager started she invited each of her reports out for coffee and paid for it. She said if ever she invited me for coffee it meant she was paying.

    She’s letting us pick where we want to have our 1:1s – on or off-site. If I pick a coffee shop and that’s my choice, presumably I should just pay for myself and expect her to do the same?

    Just to be clear, it’s my choice to go off-site and get coffee!

    1. Bananatiel*

      I think Alison has answered questions like this before and her philosophy seems to be a universal “gifts travel down and not up” in organizations. So I think it would be perfectly reasonable that you would each just pay for yourself! You can ensure that by stepping up in line before her if you want to avoid discussing it. Or maybe even ordering online before you get there, as some places allow now.

    2. jack*

      I would say she would still pay, she’s offering that as an option. But maybe just ask her once you get there?

    3. BRR*

      I think you each pay for yourself. Even if she offered I would feel comfortable accepting a coffee for a regular meeting.

    4. WellRed*

      No! This is a business meeting, not a social gathering. She should and probably will pay. She would not have offered the choice of where to meet if she didn’t mean it and that doesn’t change the dynamic. (but bring your own $ if it makes you feel safer).

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      How frequently are your 1:1’s?

      It’s an odd dynamic here because she didn’t invite you to coffee, she invited you to a meeting. Meetings don’t always include a snack/treat attached. So to assume she’d pay is really iffy, I would get there before she did and pay for my own drink to be honest. Otherwise it may leave a weird awkward taste in her mouth and I’d be leery of looking like you’re taking advantage of her noting that “if I invite you to coffee, I’ll always pay.” mentality.

      You don’t pay for her coffee, that’s against the grain as well! So yeah, it’s really just a matter of paying for yourself and making sure she knows right out of the gate that is what you expect to do.

      1. Alphabet Pony*

        Monthly. Our mini team has a weekly workload / status catch-up so this is the more in-depth personal development etc type chat.

        I didn’t say anything about a snack or a treat so I’m not sure where you’re getting that from. I just wanted to know that it was ok not to pay for her when I picked going to a coffee shop. She mentioned it first as a suggestion, everyone else is doing that too. I didn’t mean she should pay for me.

        It would be weird if I got there first. We’ll be heading over together.

  149. Mimmy*

    Quick question: What does one wear to what’s essentially an informational interview when it is the middle of summer?

    I’m meeting with someone to get some insights into a field I’m interested in. He offered the option to meet at a nearby Starbucks, which tells me it’s probably going to be a fairly informal conversation (I chose to meet at his office–it’d be quieter). I imagine I could probably be fine with business casual–slacks and a nice top. Only hitch is that I’ll be taking the bus which requires walking, so I may need to arrive in sneakers and carry my flats in a bag.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think sneakers would be fine, as long as they are nice sneakers, unless you are in an unusually formal environment. You want to look nice, but you don’t need to be super formal about it.

  150. Nicai*

    My coworker who has been a bully to me for ages recently got a promotion and is moving up to a supervisory role… at another location. On one hand, I’m so glad that she’ll be out of my immediate hair. On the other hand, this means that I’ll probably never be able to get a promotion thanks to our hiring practices. Also, how do I deal with her pals, who also don’t seem to like me much (though not nearly as openly)?

      1. Bananatiel*

        Yeah, if I’m thinking optimistically it’s possible that her cronies might have only been her pals because they were vying to use her for promotions themselves. Now that she’s not in your location it might break up that dynamic. I would be cordial and friendly to test and see if there’s a chance you might be able to change the dynamic! But my cynical side is saying that if you feel you might never be able to get a promotion– might be a good time to start job searching.

  151. GingerBird*

    About to update my resume as a first step into maybe negotiating for a raise. It’s been a while and this will be my first “big girl resume” in that it actually will have relevant work experience rather than looking for an entry level job in my field. Not entirely sure where to start, but probably with taking my GPA off it.

    1. Bananatiel*

      If you’re a few years out of school I think taking the GPA off is a good step. I would look critically at any summer jobs, university jobs, or club experiences from school that you might also have on your resume and consider whether they make sense to keep, as well. And maybe even internships if they aren’t feeling very relevant anymore.

      I worked for a couple student publications which was relevant to my resume when I was 1-3 years out of school, but now that I’m 8 years out those things are long gone. The only thing that remains is a highly relevant summer job that I had no idea would be so relevant to what I do now– like, exact same industry relevant, ha. But it’s a nice thing to have at the very bottom to round everything off still.

      1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

        Totally agree. I would have an _extremely_ high bar for any college activities at all. To the point where I’m having a hard time thinking of literally anything that would be worth the space it would take up. You need that space to emphasize all the best things you’re doing in your current job.

        Internships are probably worth keeping, though, if this is your first job out of school. Even if you’ve been in this job for 5 years, internships are still reasonably valuable just to show more diversity of experience (and you can always remove bullet points or otherwise truncate so they take up less space).

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      One thing I did is put my education, which had been the first thing on my resume, after my work experience, because now that I am a few years out of school, the degree isn’t as critical as it once was. Good luck!

  152. Bigglesworth*

    Minor rant ahead:

    I’m a law clerk at a small firm in the DMV area and am going to start my final year in law school in August. This is a fairly new job and I started full-time in April. Before starting, I was told the partner/owner was not a pleasant person (sexist, anger problems, etc.) but that his associate was a dear. I needed the money to pay off my spouse’s hospital bills and accepted the position.

    Oh my. I haven’t had any problems with the boss that haven’t been resolved by setting firm boundaries (like no, we shouldn’t talk about boobs in the office) and already have a job offer as an associate once I graduate. He also told me today that he would write me a letter of recommendation for the judicial clerkships I’m applying for. I work hard, keep my head down, and generally act as I would normally. Yes, he does have a temper and doesn’t provide clear guidance, but asking questions and keeping a calm head myself means these situations aren’t bad. Not great and I don’t want to stay long-term, but not bad.

    The associate that everyone loves is an entirely different story. He’s a snake that pretends to get along with everyone before throwing them under the bus – including myself. Nothing is ever his fault and he’s “doing the best he can under the circumstances.” (Quote from today). He plays games on his phone and then complains about having to work evenings and weekends.

    It’s only the three of us. My goal is to last until March 2020, which is the second longest any clerk has lasted here (that’ll put me at 11 months, the previous clerk lasted 12, and the average before that is 4 months). We’ll see how it goes, but I’m ok giving notice sooner since we just submitted our final payment for the hospital bills and the rest of my income can be saved or put towards student loans. I’m Editor-in-Chief of my law journal and will be participating in an international competition this upcoming year (Vis Moot), which takes up a ton of time and makes a convenient reason for leaving this job sooner than expected.

  153. % of budget allocated to marketing*

    Can anyone share roughly what percent of their company’s budget is spent on marketing? I am essentially the marketing department at a medium-small company, and am really not sure whether we are on par with where we should be on marketing spending, and it’s a difficult thing to research. I feel like we are on the (super?) low-end; our assets are around $100 million and the previous few years I’ve been given roughly $50k for marketing. I am not sure what our total operations budget is.

  154. Nacho*

    I’m part of the spirit team at my work, and we’ve started a new team-wide thing to improve out stats. If we hit certain targets, we get various prizes, and higher targets = better prizes. My boss is very against asking the rest of the team what kind of prizes they want though, and I’m kind of weirded out by that. Obviously the prizes have to be some kind of food like pizza or a catered lunch or something, but when I brought up asking people where they would like to get the food from, he just said “this is not a democracy, this is a republic.” and shut the idea down pretty hard. He thinks the Spirit team should just decide what the prizes should be without asking anybody else.

    Is it worth asking him why he’s so adamantly against asking people what they want, or will that just make me come off as overly argumentative?

    1. Colette*

      You’re pretty limited on options – you presumably have to get food that everyone can choose from, and I doubt you want to order everyone individual meals – so just pick a few options and get it done. You could mention to him that people will be more invested in winning if they like the prize, but this is also the kind of thing where you will get people who aren’t thrilled no matter what you choose.

      1. Nacho*

        We’re picking a restaurant and everybody gets to order take-out. Right now it’s pretty much a given that the restaurant will be Chipotle.

    2. Art3mis*

      Honestly, I agree with him. Having done stuff like this, you’re not going to get everyone to agree and if you give them options people will complain about not having the option you didn’t pick.

    3. WellRed*

      Why do the prizes have to be food? Small gift cards? A prime parking spot for the week? Go home an hour early on Friday? If it’s food for the team just order in pizza or a sandwich platter, make sure there’s a variety and make sure if there is someone with dietary needs, not *preferences, you take care of them non judgmentally and without making it a big deal.

      *I prefer thin crust pizza (for actual medical reasons) but will eat the deep dish that is ordered.

    4. nonegiven*

      Say, “OK, fine, which restaurants do you want?” Then ask people which of those they want and if they pick another, report to him, “well everyone hates those but this one will work.”

  155. greenbeanies*

    For those of you who have been in the wrong job, wrong industry, and wrong career all at the same time, how did you or are you coping?

    To fix the “wrong job” part, did you hop to another job while working on a career change in the background? Or did you stay at the wrong job until you were able to change careers? Or were you able to quit without another job?

    I started an intensive career coaching class last month that is giving me the tools to change my career. I think it’ll be a slow process to find the right career. I’m just curious how others have handled this trifecta of poo.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Hmmm… I would be curious if I felt this to analyze why I felt this way and what about it might be fixable. For example, is there another job that might make you feel better than the one you have? Are you certain this is all connected or just specific things you don’t like? How to parse all of that would be complicated for me. So, I guess I would analyze how I felt and then try to decide what was causing those feelings and what is in my power to alter and what isn’t.

    2. mola*

      I started a side hustle because I felt like I had nothing to lose. And after just over a year I left bad-fit job. I got experience in something new/hard while I had a stable job, didn’t look bad leaving the job after a short period of time, and had a better sense of what I wanted looking for a new career/job.

      Good luck!

      1. greenbeanies*

        I’m thinking about doing something similar (once I find an idea to test out). It’s good to hear it worked out for you!

    3. Bananatiel*

      So the worst I’ve ever had was wrong job, wrong industry– career was good but I wasn’t totally happy with my direction there either. Things were SO bad in the job, as in, the people I worked with, that my focus just became finding a job with better people. It was my primary focus. Good job responsibilities that might be a better career fit were second, I didn’t pay much mind to industry. My new job as a result of that search is so strong on the people side of things that for now I am totally content in all three areas. I’m glad I went with my gut that the number one problem *I* had was the people I worked with. Made all the difference. I think it helps to really do some soul searching on what’s bothering you the most however you need to– writing it down, talking it out with someone, etc. Having clarity on the biggest problem can help you “move the needle” in the best way.

    4. Jellyfish*

      I made the mistake of mentioning to a coworker that I didn’t know if [job] would be my long term career. Don’t do that! Learn from my terrible judgement and keep the wrong job/industry/career thoughts to yourself 100% while at work.

      Ultimately, I managed a total career change. It took a few years and I’m in debt for it now, but I’m a lot happier and more productive in my new industry. Figuring out my long term goal was helpful for morale. Sounds like you’re on your way there with the career coaching. I also did some minor work on the side to keep up the skills that I ultimately wanted to use.

      Hobbies and friends outside of work are important too. You’re more than your job and always will be. I think that’s especially important to remember when your job is a poor fit.

      1. greenbeanies*

        Ha, I’ve been tempted to spill the beans to a co-worker I’m friendly with and who often vents to me. It’s very tempting to confide in someone at work but probably not worth it as you mentioned. Thanks for that advice.

        I’m so glad you were able to change careers and are much happier now! I love hearing career change success stories. I have a feeling this is going to be a long-term project for me as well.

  156. My Karen Problem*

    I have a coworker that I’ve worked with for 5+ years who I truly hate – Karen.

    Karen is in her late fifties. She’s worked with our company for about 15 years and is a senior member of the team. I’m 29 and am in a senior role as well. Here’s a sampling of the things she does that drive me insane:

    – She is extremely disorganized. When we have joint projects, she never helps or completes her portion of the tasks on time or, often, at all. This results in me spending weeks and weeks doing work myself that we were supposed to share.

    – She is ALSO extremely controlling. Despite not contributing any actual work towards those efforts, she’s in our manager’s ear every day telling him how things should be managed and implying that she is doing those things herself.

    – She’s an airhead who can’t remember anything and can’t be relied on for accurate information. As one of the senior members of our team, the more junior people often have to check with her on how to handle things. The guidance she gives them is misleading, confusing, and often wrong. She frequently forgets basic, fundamental rules related to the work we do. They then have to check with me for redirection, which is awkward.

    – She frequently snitches to our manager about petty grievances. For instance, if a junior member makes a minor mistake or does something she would handle differently, she complains to the boss immediately.

    – She’s a hypocrite. Despite the aforementioned snitching, she frequently makes errors (sometimes pretty serious errors) herself, and makes excuses about being too busy. She once confronted me about an error she thought I made. Turns out, it was her error in the first place.

    – She is SO overbearing and an incredible busy body who lacks any sense of boundaries, especially when it comes to me. If I have a meeting in our bosses office, she will straight up ask me what it was about. She brags to me if she gets a raise or bonus – including telling me how much. I recently was given a task/project to do involving our Finance department that she wanted to do herself. She reached out to our Finance contacts privately and asked them if she could help them with it.

    – She’s the type to send an incredibly passive aggressive email with a big smiley face. She says everything with a super sweet voice, which makes it feel especially condescending.

    – She looks for every opportunity to lord over others, even in trivial ways. When our boss is out of the office, but checking email daily and assigning work, she will log in before he does so she can assign people work under the ruse of being “helpful.” I’ve asked him if he instructed her to do that and he said no.

    – She undermines me, for no apparent reason. I have a junior coworker that I was asked to informally mentor. She messages that coworker privately telling him that he should come to her with questions. When I was training him, she would pull me aside and ask what I was covering with him to make sure it was right. This is especially annoying coming from someone who, as I said, can’t remember policies herself.

    These are just some of the grievances I can think of right now. When this woman speaks to me, I have an almost visceral reaction. I really, hate her – possibly irrationally so(?). I have a good relationship with my manager but none of this is behavior that is easy to articulate or call someone out on. He is aware that she is difficult but she performs some important functions on the team and they’ll never get rid of her. Any advice on how to deal? I’m seriously starting to wonder if I can continue working in this role with this person.

    1. WellRed*

      Well, for some of these things, (the “assigning work,” the interfering with the mentoring or trying to get on a project with you), you can come up with a pat phrase an use it every time: “I’ve got this Karen,” “It’s handled, Karen” “Congrats on the raise, Karen” something like that, delivered firmly/blandly. Don’t focus on her shortcomings. That is secondary to some of these issues, though I can see why it increases your annoyance. And you are also a senior team member so if the juniors come to you for redirection, try not to feel awkward. They obviously know what’s up.
      Do you know if she’s always been like this?

      1. valentine*

        She reached out to our Finance contacts privately and asked them if she could help them with it.
        If they let her, that’s on them. The little recourse you might have would be to then tell them you would like a chance to do it yourself to see how it goes.

        she will log in before he does so she can assign people work under the ruse of being “helpful.”
        If they don’t understand the chain of command, that’s on your manager and them.

        I’ve asked him if he instructed her to do that and he said no.
        He didn’t tell her to stop, either, or to start doing her work, or anything else, because he’s your real problem. A good manager would keep her leash short or fire her. The fact you don’t even feel you can say to him, “The joint project is 51% complete. Pending items are Karen’s xyz,” instead of assuming you need to do her work and hiding that from him, means he’s not managing you well, either.

        She undermines me, for no apparent reason.
        Because it works. It gets your goat and it’s fun. She needs to smear you to make herself appear less rotten.

        I really, hate her – possibly irrationally so(?).
        While understandable, you don’t have to feel this way. You’re eating your heart out while she’s enjoying being a goldfish in a teacup.

        I have a good relationship with my manager
        You do not.

        none of this is behavior that is easy to articulate or call someone out on.
        You articulated it well here and the things that may not be yours to address, others are failing to. Apart from her fake-sweet voice (which grey-rocking should kill), take your list here and, next to each trespass, write what your manager, Finance, or you could have done to counter or stop her. Any reason why not?

        I’m amazed you’ve endured this long and I’m thinking it’s sunk-cost fallacy or Stockholm Syndrome with your manager, but whatever it is, leaving seems the right thing for you. Even if you could transfer out of Karen’s orbit, I think you’d feel hard done by, that they chose her over you (because they have), so it wouldn’t serve you.

        Step back and take a hard look at ways you can free yourself, starting with emotionally. You don’t have to care what she thinks or does. You don’t have to rescue the junior people. You’re not helpless, but that doesn’t mean you’re responsible or to blame for her nonsense. You could have addressed her incorrect guidance with her, with your manager, maybe with your manager again, but three strikes and you’re out. The junior people could have also gone to your manager about it. There are other things you can do, but you can also let the chips fall and escape.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      She’s set in her ways and will never change. They allow this behavior to continue and know she’s got these kind of shortcomings but accept the fact that “It’s just Karen, you know.”

      So part of it is just trying to let it go. Hate her all day long, every day but control your reactions to that hate. That’s all you can do. Just internally roll your eyes and yawn at her obnoxious behaviors.

      Focus on you and your career course. Lap up all the information and the experience. That will fast track you on the way out of Karen invested woods. She’s not going to be in your life forever, you don’t have to be in that department, in that position, near her forever. Remind yourself that Karen is temporary in your life, even if it’s a long-term temporary since you’ll be hanging around and having to coexist with her for the foreseeable future of course.

      Keep as much distance as possible and circumvent her as often as possible. I would have the junior folks know that they can just go to you directly instead of asking her first because what’s she going to do? Complain? Good. Keep complaining about others, Karen. Nobody caaaaaaaaaaaares, Karen.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Stop doing her work for her. Tell your boss you’re doing “joint” projects alone and you can’t keep doing this.
      Start looking for a new job, because nothing’s going to change.
      I’m sorry.

  157. AnotherAlison*

    I’ve written this a few times & deleted. The right thing to do for a terminally ill* team member is just to let them work at their own direction, yes? I’m on a very fast paced project, and have other team members picking up the slack for that individual. Ultimately, this person was not the right fit because it should be a 50+ hr/wk role, and that’s not what they can do right now. We’re still getting things done, but in work terms, this is a pretty stressful project and we’ve got to meet a lot of near-impossible deadlines to achieve things that have never been done on this schedule before. It’s a big deal to us, but obviously not that big of a deal to them because they have other bigger matters in their life now. I’ve told my manager I’m frustrated, but that I’m just going to vent frustration to my manager sometimes and let things with the team member go as long as the other folks are getting things done (in some cases by working till midnight, but that was their choice, not my direction). Does that sound like the right thing? I know when I had family in this situation, I would have rather had them focused on family and health, not committing to long workweeks. I think the best solution would have been for my manager to have this person on less time sensitive work, but then again, you have to have some sensitivity around “putting someone out to pasture”.

    *I do not know if terminally ill is 3-5 years or months.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you need to, perhaps as a group, decide what you can do working reasonable hours and go to your manager and say, “We can complete X and Y, but we can not complete Z or we can complete Z by the deadline, but not Y. How would you like us to proceed?” In many ways, your coworker’s illness is irrelevant to what you need from your manager which is guidance on priorities.

      If the answer is really, “Work until Midnight.”

      Then that’s a real problem. As for you team members choosing to work until midnight, it sounds like you have some authority (you mention it was ‘not at your direction’) than I would step in. Part of your job as a team lead is to help advocate and support your team.

      1. valentine*

        The right thing to do for a terminally ill* team member is just to let them work at their own direction, yes? […]
        No. If it were something like you needed one person to go to five locations and another to receive their data, you would assign the ill person to do the latter. But it’s twisted for someone to be spinning their wheels at 1% of former or necessary capacity or making a hash of things like one letter. For expiration dates closer to months than years, the manager should give them all the paid leave possible and tell them to stay home, or at least away from the office.

        I think the best solution would have been for my manager to have this person on less time sensitive work, but then again, you have to have some sensitivity around “putting someone out to pasture”.
        Yes and no, respectively. I mean, they need the pasture and your current scheme isn’t sustainable for a week, much less months or years. If you carry on overworking, you’ll all be ill.

    2. Bananatiel*

      I think this is a great question to pose to Alison directly. She’s answered some questions before on how to deal with team members that were struggling with cancer and other serious illnesses before. I can’t be helpful on scripts since I’ve not come close to dealing with something like this, but I don’t think this is something you just have to live with. I definitely think it’s worth pursuing getting them moved into a role that would genuinely be a better fit for them and everyone else. Who knows, maybe they actually really want to be shifted off the team because they can feel that they’re not pulling their weight? I can’t imagine they’re totally unaware themselves!

    3. Colette*

      I think there are 2 parts of this question – how do you be compassionate to someone with a terminal illness, and how can you get the job done when they can’t work as much as you need?

      And I think the second question is where you need to start.

      Your colleague isn’t doing the work you need her to do, and I think you need to bring that to your manager. “A you know, Pat isn’t able to do as much work as we need. I get it – she needs to be concentrating on her health, and I fully support that. Is there someone else who we can pull in to take care of the pieces she’s not able to do? Right now my team is working too many hours to cover, and it’s not sustainable.”

      Your manager will need to find someone else, extend the deadline, or reduce the scope. There are no other choices – if your team keeps working too much, they’re going to burn out, quit, or get sick and you will be worse off than you are now.

      And you don’t want to let it get to a point where people are resentful of your colleague for taking the time she needs for her health, which is another thing that can easily happen.

      1. Llellayena*

        This. Can you plan for the project to not rely on Pat at all? Have a running list of project tasks you can hand to her if she comes in, but not give her the time sensitive, critical pieces that would be disruptive or difficult to hand off if she doesn’t show up? This might require a convo with her focused on “how we can make work less stressful for you (and incidentally us).”

    4. Anon for now*

      I don’t think that the best thing to do is “let them work at their own direction.” The problem is that this is putting too much work on the rest of your team. If they can’t manage time sensitive work, they should be reassigned to something that they can handle.

  158. Lazy Cat's Mom*

    Does anyone have any advice for someone about to start juggling a full-time job and graduate school online? I’m worried about getting it all done.
    I’m eager to see what worked and what didn’t work for you. For example, has it worked out for you if you split things completely, such as school only on weekends?
    Thanks!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, what I did is that I saved up vacation time, so I could plan to take a few days off each semester, sequester myself in my apartment and do nothing but homework. I often would work ahead these days if I could and try to get just a handle on things.

      Also, and I know this might not be a good technique for you, but I also would take a hard look at my assignments each class and decide if I really cared. For example, one class required four discussion posts a week, but you only got one point per post and I did the math and decided- If I miss a post, I don’t care much I can still get an A. So, just make sure that you know what “matters” and what doesn’t.

      1. Lazy Cat's Mom*

        Thanks! I like the vacation idea. That would also help me use up extra days since I have a lot.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        About halfway through every semester, I hit the grade math wall, aye. “What do I have to do to get an A- in this class.” At one point in an elective dance class (and seriously, I have no idea how they decided to do a dance class ONLINE, of all damn things) I was prepping for a big overseas trip and I realized that if I completely didn’t do the final, I’d still have a B+. So I said screw it. (And then three weeks later while I was in a Dublin the instructor emailed me all worried that she had somehow lost my final. Somewhat awkward to explain that no, I just decided not to do it. But I got my B+.)

        1. online teacher*

          Your mileage may vary, but I prefer a quick heads-up email when previously-strong students decide they have the grade they want and will be skipping the last few assignments in one of my online classes. I’ll generally double-check their numbers and let them know what their grade will be (in case they miscalculated this gives them a chance to change their mind), and then can take them off of my list of things to worry about/follow up on as I wrap up the term.

        2. nonegiven*

          I had a class that the grade was half the midterm and half the final. On the final, I was like, OK If I make xx% on the final, I’ll still have an A. So I didn’t study at all.

    2. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I got my master’s while working full time and taking online classes. It was a real challenge. I think part of your strategy will rely on the format of classes. My program had chat sessions one night a week where you log in and attend a virtual seminar. Some of these took attendance and others didn’t so you could watch later on at your leisure, so it’s important to keep that kind of thing in mind. I tried to keep the bulk of my work to the weekends, but still had to make sure I was able to attend required chat sessions.

      It’s also worth seeing if your full time job will be willing to accommodate you to some extent. My first job in grad school was not. They said they would, as they know I was a student when they hired me, but they made the experience hell. I got a lot of crap for leaving at 5 or 5:30 to make it home in time for a 7 PM chat session, even though I got to the office 1-2 hours earlier than everyone else. My next job was happy to be flexible with my chat schedules and pre-test studying, which made it easier. I wasn’t in school during my last job, but a few of my coworkers were and the company was willing to be a little flexible for those who had to attend evening classes.

      1. Lazy Cat's Mom*

        I have the option of doing some in person, but I’m not sure if I could make it work. My boss would be supportive by my current job requires me to be in the office at certain times. But I’ll keep it in mind.
        It could be fun. I haven’t been in a real class since I got my undergraduate degree 25 years ago.
        Thanks!

        1. Jellyfish*

          If you have the option to do some classwork in person, I’d recommend it. It seems really inconvenient, but those personal connections help a lot.

          I did my undergrad traditionally – all in person. My first graduate degree was completely online, and the second was a hybrid online / in person program. Although I learned plenty in both, I had a much better experience with the hybrid program.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Best of luck to you!

      Although I wasn’t working a full-time job, I worked two part-time jobs through grad school. Are you in an online or in-person program?

      I did an online program, and I found it very helpful to make a detailed schedule. Mon after work – read GRAD101 articles. Mon after dinner – first discussion post for SCHL202. Tuesday during lunch – go to the library and check out a book. I found that I got very behind if I just planned for “due on this date”, I needed to get super granular with what I actually needed to be doing at what time.

      1. Lazy Cat's Mom*

        Great suggestion. This will be key for me.
        I definitely forget things if I don’t put it on the calendar. Just have to remember not to push the snooze on those items. I confess that I have a couple alerts that have been going off for a few weeks and let them go thinking I’ll get to them eventually.
        Thanks!

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve been working full time and doing school full time online for going on eleven years now. Including two memorable years when I was working my career job full time, cashiering at Target part time, volunteer gig with a girls leadership organization, and deans-listing 20 credit hours when full time was 12. I didn’t do much else those years. (2 years associate degree, 3 years bachelor, 4 years grad school for two masters, and now I’m working on bachelor #2 because it’s required for a certification. Also I just really like being in school.)

      My really really big thing is to schedule everything. Find a calendar that you can stick with and glue it to your face. I’m an Apple girl so I use iCal, and it syncs to my phone, my tablet, my desktop, my laptop, my watch, and is available on the web. Within it, I have a variety of calendars – personal stuff, school stuff, work stuff, shared cal with my husband’s stuff for reference, house stuff, financial stuff that’s FYI (like due dates on autopayments), financial stuff I actually have to do something with, birthdays… I think that’s it. They’re color coded and if something isn’t on the calendar, I probably won’t remember it.

      At the beginning of the semester, I put in all the due dates I have available to me for class stuff. I put all my classes on one calendar but you could separate them, whatever works for you. Put alerts on things, days or weeks ahead. Then – find yourself two blocks of time. One that’s school time – mine was Thursdays from 4-9 – and one that’s Not School or Work or Anything, Just Me Time. Tuesdays, 5-10. Or maybe you go down the street to trivia on Wednesday nights. Or to the coffee shop with a book on Sunday mornings. Whatever. Point is, it’s time for you to do something just for you. (If you have one or more significant others, or kids, you may also find it valuable to schedule in time with them too, you know your relationships better than I do.) but once it’s on the calendar, School Time and Me Time are inviolable, barring something huge.

    5. Jellyfish*

      Schedule everything out* and then live in the moment.
      When you’re at work, focus on work. When you’re doing an assignment, don’t worry about your job, or the dishes, or anything else. When you’re spending time with family or taking a break, enjoy it without guilt.
      Trying to carry multiple schedules and deadlines in your head all at the same time is stressful. A good planner is definitely your friend!

      Personally, there’s no way I could have kept up only doing school on the weekends. I did build in break days though. Because of other commitments, I chose Tuesdays and Fridays to completely ignore schoolwork.

      There were also dedicated times I always worked on school, although those varied by semester. That was helpful for my spouse too since they knew when I’d definitely be free and definitely be busy.

      Talk to your professors. They want you to succeed, so tell them if you’re struggling to keep up or having issues with the tech. 95% of the time, they’re happy to help.

      Good luck! :)

      *Assignments always take longer than you expect. Build in some extra time, especially in the beginning. You’ll get faster as you get further into the program.

    6. Princess Scrivener*

      Aw, I’m sorry I missed this last week! I’ve been there, and I know simultaneous online grad school and full-time work are totally doable. Our kids are grown, and my job at the time had a mandatory lunch hour, so my homework, papers, and chat replies were all done on Saturdays and during work lunch hours. I only took one class every 10 weeks, which helped. My program didn’t require specific times to be in a chat room, so I worked on tons of Word docs, whenever I had free minutes, and then posted them before due dates. You’ll do GREAT–let us know how it’s going once you get in a routine.

  159. Public policy anon*

    What are people’s thoughts/experiences with getting an MPA or MPP?

    I’m torn. On the one hand, I’ve received a lot of advice cautioning me against going to graduate school and I take that very seriously. But on the other hand, I feel like public policy might be an exception. I’ve just reentered the job market, and many jobs require a graduate degree, and those that don’t usually want quantitative skills and significant subject area knowledge that I don’t have and don’t see how I’d develop just working an entry-level job. There seems to be a pretty big wall between entry-level jobs for people with BAs (largely administrative, temporary, or campaign work) and the interesting research and analysis positions that I want.

    For context, my resume is this (all these positions had duties that involved public policy or were public policy-adjacent):
    Full-time public policy job in state government (9 months, temporary)
    Part-time paid internship in local government (3 months)
    Part-time unpaid internship in state government (5 months)
    Part-time unpaid internship in state government (5 months)

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I can only offer a perspective on the “…[jobs] that don’t usually want quantitative skills and significant subject area knowledge that I don’t have and don’t see how I’d develop just working an entry-level job” part.

      You may (or may not) develop those skills in an entry-level role, but one of the goals of most entry-level roles in white collar settings (in my experience) is to identify and build-up talent. So, one starts at an entry-level person and then develops more skills along the way by volunteering for stretch assignments and learning from colleagues who are more senior/experienced then they are.

      In other words, graduate school is not the only way to reach those skills. And I would argue, graduate school would not develop those skills as effectively as a job would.

    2. Hope*

      I would work a little longer – at least 2 years continuously in the same org. 3-4 even better (then could be 2 positions / orgs. This will both make you more competitive for admissions at a strong program and give you added experience and maturity so that you get the most out of your studies (>> so you have some real-world experience to put it in context and get a better sense of where your interests lie).
      I also think that the main benefit of these professional master’s programs (even more than the basic analytical skills and subject matter exposure, plus opps to try different internships out etc) is the network you gain access to plus what you learn from your classmates. So would consider making that a serious criterion for the program you choose, if you do go this route.
      (I did a professional masters in international affairs 15 years ago and the above was the case for me – the opportunities afforded by the program led directly to the two jobs I held afterwards.)
      Best of luck!

    3. fhqwhgads*

      That’s tricky. I’m not in public policy but Person I’m Very Close To had a similar conundrum. However in that person’s case, they basically already had a job that normally requires the masters. They’d worked their way up to it, and did have quantitative skills and significant subject matter expertise. So it definitely is possible to develop those starting entry-level and moving up the ranks. But it may be the person I know as a bit of a unicorn? They ended up feeling a bit stuck a few years into their career because they had the gig they wanted in a small local government, but to even be considered for the same role in larger places, they’d need the masters. To get the job they already had and had been doing for several years. Since it’s government the requirements tended to be hard – so unlikely private sector work it was unlikely having done the role would count as equivalent experience and get them considered. They knew they’d be autorejected. Still it didn’t seem worth the time and expense to go to grad school to get a job they’d already been doing for years. If you’re still early enough that you don’t have the experience, and you’re sure this is the type of stuff you want to do, it may be worth it to get the degree sooner than later.

  160. The Cookie Wrangler*

    I’ve been working with IT support my whole career, and although I’m really good at it I never really liked it; it’s more of a means to an end. I’ve been looking for a new job for the past couple of months and I’ve been applying mostly for jobs in IT, because it’s my graduation and it’s what I have professional experience in. I’m also trying to move cities, and as I was looking at available jobs in one of the cities I was hoping to relocate to without filtering them for IT, I saw a job ad for line chef at a really nice japanese restaurant, and it sort of hit me like an epiphany: I could apply to something else other than IT, despite not having professional experience in anything else but IT. I’m a great home cook (I made fish and chips at home for the first time just last month, and it was amazing!) and baker (I used to sell cookies to help with house bills when I was in college), and the job I saw didn’t ask for professional background, so I was curious.

    So I want to hear from you guys: has any of you worked as line chefs before, or something similar? how hard is it to break into the industry? do they actually consider people with no professional cooking background? does it pay well? what’s the average work week like? I’m looking for jobs in the UK (south England to be precise) so I’d love to hear from people from the UK as well!

    1. Anon for now*

      I’m not a line chef but I have friends who are (in the US). One thing I learned from them is that home cooking and professional cooking are very different. Actually one of them is a terrible home cook because he keeps forgetting to scale down the recipes. Speed is essential as well as knife skills. The people I know who work in kitchens went to culinary school. They have mentioned new people without culinary school experience, but they aren’t hired as line chefs. Instead they work in food prep and pantry. The hours are long and usually include weekends. My one friend was very excited when he got a job that guaranteed two consecutive weekdays off because it was almost like having a weekend again.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        A lot of food handling and safety stuff is also really different in a restaurant rather than at home. Since I’m not in the UK I’m not particularly familiar with your food handling laws, but in the USA it’s a big adjustment for home cooks looking to cook professionally. Health inspectors here have a lot of rules (example: specific vertical arrangements in refrigerators so that proteins with the highest required safely cooked temps are on the bottom, graduating up to things like salad mix that will be served without cooking on the top level so that nothing ever drips onto anything that will not be cooked at the same or higher temperature as the item it dripped from) that almost no one follows in their home kitchens, so there’s a real learning curve there. You can probably learn more about your own specific food handling laws online – here the health departments are usually actively trying to get the word out since they’d rather have everyone getting it right even when they’re not being inspected that day.

        (I don’t cook professionally, this is just one of those things I ended up needing to know about at one point.)

    2. WellRed*

      Also not a line chef but work in huge foodie town where everyone seems to be in the industry. I think you should take a few culinary classes and also, the pay sucks, the hours are long, the kitchen probably won’t have AC and restaurants are often dysfunctional work environments.

  161. rosa*

    I’m a bit late but here goes.

    My dream job was recently advertised. I wouldn’t get it as most people in this job are in their 40’s and far more experienced than me (25, been in my first job 8 months, I’ve had great feedback and even got a bonus but you know 8 months is not a lot). I do however have the ideal academic qualifications for this job which are so hard to find they are preferred but not required (as they couldn’t recruit enough people if they were mandatory).

    I have no chance of getting the job and I’d look deluded to apply at this stage of my career. I fully understand this.

    However, is there any harm to reaching out to the hiring manager and pointing out I have their dream qualifications and that this is my dream job and I would love to work towards this job in the future and would they be interested in me if they are hiring jobs in the same field at a more junior level? My ideal result would be getting hired for a role at my level in the same field which is different to what i do now but not by much. Is there anyway one politely worded email could go wrong? Does anyone have any phrasing suggestions?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Hmmm… Okay, so I have been on the other side of this (hiring for a ‘dream job’ and getting reached out to) and I would say there’s nothing wrong with a polite email, but don’t be surprised if you don’t hear back and I would absolutely 100% only send one.

      I’d also be careful with your assumption that why the ideal academic qualifications are preferred but not required. I work in a field where a lot of people think specific academic qualidications would be ideal and I have been told they would be ideal, but when I hire, I actually am hesitant to hire people with the “ideal academic qualifications,” because well… I’ve been burned repeatedly by people with them. So, I would never make them required on my job ads and it has nothing to do with not being able to make a pool.

      Anyway, as for your email, I would first off be wary of making it look like you want to interview for information when you really want to pitch yourself for a job (yes, I’ve had people do that too). So, make sure you are aware of that going in. Then I might go with something like, “I’ve recently graduated with my degrees in Llama Grooming with a specialization in hoof care and I saw you were hiring a senior Llama Hoof Officer. I know I’m not yet qualified for such a senior position, but I was wondering if you might be available sometime to meet and discuss how I might move towards such a job in the future. I am specifically interested in X and Y.”

      1. fposte*

        I was thinking exactly the same thing about the experience being required and the academic qualification preferred. They probably see a reasonable amount of people with the academic qualification and without the experience, and their prioritization in the other order is for a good reason.

    2. fposte*

      I think it would be fine to reach out and wise to understand you may hear nothing. I would avoid “dream job” terminology and stick to specifics about your credentials, your favorable opinion of the company, and your interest in a career trajectory that leads to the kind of job they’ve posted.

    3. Bananatiel*

      If it’s a senior role or a management role then I would agree that you are probably too young to apply for the job. But if it’s mid-level it honestly might be worth a shot to apply– hard to tell from your question which it is, but I just thought I’d put that out there since I’ve gotten two long-shot jobs due to talent/skills “beyond my age”.

      IMO I don’t think it’s a big deal to send an email with your resume to the hiring manager expressing deep interest in the company and inquiring about any junior-level roles. If I were you I would stay away from “dream job” phrasing and focus on the things about the company and the role that really interest you instead. Show you’ve really done your research. You’re probably going to get a few people saying not to do it since you risk annoying the hiring manager, but one communication is not going overboard and they can delete it easily and move on if they don’t appreciate the gesture. If you don’t hear back don’t take it personally, and if a junior level role there ever comes up don’t let it stop you from applying anyway. Odds are if they never responded they probably deleted the email without much thought and you’d get a whole new shot at making an impression.

    4. Ace in the Hole*

      Personal anecdote:

      I was recently in a very similar position. I found out a local agency was hiring for the type of job I would LOVE to do some day, but thought I had zero chance of getting. This was for a “Senior X Specialist” position, where I wasn’t sure I’d even be qualified for the non-senior X specialist. For context this is a job that usually requires a bachelor’s degree and 5-10 years experience, where I have no degree and 3 years. But I did have some specialized experience that is extremely hard to find. After a lot of agonizing I put in an application anyway.

      While I didn’t get the job (no surprise there), I did get through two rounds of interviews and ended up getting some great advice from the hiring manager on education, how to break into that career track, and which branches of their agency hired most frequently for my type of work.

      Like Bananatiel says, this is different if it’s a high-level management position, but if it’s a mid-level job I strongly suggest you apply anyways! If you fit even half the qualifications, it’s not “deluded” to apply for a job. They don’t have to interview you if they don’t think you’re a good fit, but you won’t know until you try.

  162. Tequila Mockingbird*

    A friend of mine told me that his manager had an office baby shower this week. She is expecting a boy, and a memo went out to the team (unclear exactly who the memo was from) asking everyone to wear “baby blue” to work on the day of the shower.

    Am I the only one who thinks this is weird at best, and inappropriate at worst? Asking people to wear a gender-specific color indicating the gender of their manager’s unborn child?

      1. valentine*

        To be fair, they won’t know the gender unless the kid tells them. It’s gross sexism, though, and doesn’t belong anywhere, much less a workplace.

    2. WellRed*

      Weird because they are all adults in an office, but I don’t see it as really inappropriate. Gender norms (if that’s what you are referring to) may be changing, but when it comes to baby boys and baby girls and baby showers, blue is still associated with boys.

      1. fposte*

        I don’t think associating baby blue with a boy is inappropriate (though it’s a bit dated); I think it’s highly inappropriate to require costumes of your co-workers for your personal life.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Eh…not the worst thing I’ve heard and definitely more OK at a baby shower than any other time.
      At my cousin’s baby shower they were doing the gender reveal at the end of the shower and asked people to wear something with pink or blue depending on what gender they thought the baby was. It was kind of fun and the mommy-to-be and her mom both wore purple since they knew.

    4. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      On the grand scale of inappropriateness, I’d be rolling my eyes but not polishing up my resume, if that means anything. I would also probably speculate to a select group of friends outside of work about future coordinated outfits to celebrate other life events for the manager in question, which would probably go off the rails fairly quickly.

      I feel like wear x color for y reason days are deeply annoying and I generally just…don’t. Partially because my brain isn’t really working yet when I get dressed in the morning and I probably haven’t yet thought about it being wear x for y day until I’ve already been dressed for an hour and have absorbed sufficient coffee, but I know I could put more effort into this if I wanted to. (I used to put much more effort in when I was a newer employee and concerned about looking like a team player. My current office is all pretty checked out on these things when they come down from above, so I know I can just ignore them without getting in trouble.)

    5. Lilysparrow*

      Annoying and ridiculous, yes. I think calling it “inappropriate” is an overreach.

      Somebody (presumably the self-appointed head of the Party Planning Committee) sent a memo with a stupid request. He doesn’t have to do it. Most people probably won’t, and nobody but the memo writer will care.

  163. CDN*

    Hey folks,
    Conducting interviews all next week for a project manager role… what are your favourite/most insightful questions to ask candidates? Thanks!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Describe a time you had a conflict with a colleague. How did you proceed and resolve it?

    2. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I like to ask people what they’re most significant professional accomplishment is. Gives people an opportunity to present themselves in the best light and brag a little, while also giving me insight into what they value. I also usually tell interviewees in advance that I’ll be asking the question, and that they should be prepared to get into the weeds with it (what you did, how you did it, who else was involved, what the ultimate result was, etc), so there’s not dead air and wasted time while they try to come up with the example, and so they have really thought through different options for answering the question.

  164. Nylander*

    Hi everyone! I’m a recent grad whose in his first real adult job after college, and one thing I’m running into is that I’m getting blamed for typos that comes up in shared documents. I actually got a private IM from one of my coworkers saying that I “need to be more diligent about copying data from reports into PowerPoints to avoid typos,” but the thing is, according to the document’s edit history, I didn’t make any of the typos she’s saying that I’m responsible for (another boss was). Do I say anything, or do I just let it go? I don’t want to look incompetent, but I’m guessing that it wouldn’t look good for me to pass the blame, especially as a new entry-level employee.

    1. Nylander*

      I guess I should clarify – I have a previous copy of the document saved to be able to compare to the final version, so that’s how I know I’m not responsible for the typos she’s saying that I’m responsible.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I actually would calmly say: “I didn’t edit that section” or something similar. If it was your responsibility to review his work or the whole document, take responsibility, but if it’s not it’s fine to correct her mistake. It’s not exactly “passing blame” if it’s not your fault in the first place.

      1. Nylander*

        What about if it was a group document that my team edited without clearly delineated sections? We all edited the document collectively and I wasn’t responsible for the final review. I did the first draft of the slide deck and then made a few minor edits that were clearly delegated to me after our senior director gave us feedback on the initial draft. I’m guessing that makes it tougher because the coworker who messaged me was responsible for doing the final review, so I think she just thought that I was responsible for the typos, if that makes sense.

        1. Bananatiel*

          Based on this context I think it still works to say “Oh! Thanks for letting me know but I didn’t review that section” in the moment. In my first job out of college I was afraid to point out that I hadn’t made the mistakes that I was blamed for and it created an impression in the company that I wasn’t very detail-oriented when I really am. In my next job I was diligent about that and lo and behold, I became known as someone that could catch all the mistakes. Little things add up!

        2. fposte*

          What does your own boss say? Does she know your real accuracy rate?

          I think it could be fine to say “Thanks for the tip! That wasn’t content I generated, but maybe I can find a way to proof material when I receive it. Any thoughts?” You might actually get some useful thoughts, for one thing, and it helps bring the co-worker in as an ally on the problem rather than just being a correction. But if you have an actual accessible boss I’d check with her first.

          1. Nylander*

            I think my own boss, as well as other managers, think I’m much more detail-oriented because I actually have done a good chunk of copy-editing, writing, and research work. I think this boss probably thinks I’m responsible because she’s seen the majority of my early-in-job mistakes because I don’t know the office culture that well (not knowing the office culture around CCing people or needing to reformat a slide deck because this office has very strict guidelines for formatting slides that I didn’t know about).

            I also got blamed for typos that an intern made on a different shared document as well, so I probably need to nip this in the bud ASAP before it gets back to my actual boss. I ended up wilting and responding “I’ll be more diligent about this – thanks,” but I’ll be more assertive if I get blamed for something like this in the future.

            1. fposte*

              I think you’re going the wrong way around here–you say to your actual boss “Hey, I’m willing to own up to errors, but I want to make sure I’m represented correctly. If somebody sends me an alert thinking that I’m making a certain kind of error, is it okay for me to thank them but note that wasn’t my content?”

              In a reasonable job, you’re communicating with your manager all along and things don’t need to get back to her because they get front to her, if you will; what I’d nip in the bud is the non-communication.

              1. Nylander*

                Yeah, that makes sense. What makes this tough thought is that I’m not actually working on any projects together with my boss. The only time he finds anything out about my work is during our weekly check-in meetings. I’m currently working on three different projects which all have different leads. As a result, my current boss doesn’t actually know that much about the day-to-day happenings of my projects and what potential problems come up.

                1. fposte*

                  This seems to me like something you can say during a weekly check-in meeting, though. “How do you want me to handle it when there’s a belief that I’m making errors that weren’t my content? I want to make sure people don’t mistakenly undervalue my work, but I also don’t want to nitpick.”

                2. fposte*

                  Additionally, you might be able to ask that of a project lead if you’re talking to them earlier. Don’t wait until somebody sends you a mistake–just ask about protocol.

    4. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I would say something like “Thanks for the heads-up! I didn’t actually introduce the errors you’re seeing, that was someone else, but you’re totally right that copy-pasting will introduce errors generally, so I’ll stay vigilant. Thanks again!” I might use more exclamation points than you would, but that would be my approach: thankful for the advice, but matter-of-fact and friendly about how they were not your errors.

  165. Cat*

    So I’m not sure if it’s allowed to bring up past letters in the Friday thread, so apologies if not. But I’ve been thinking about the “notifying co-workers about your pregnancy” letter for a while and some of the discussion has been bothering me. I wanted to bring up a perspective that I didn’t see reflected in the comments.

    Basically, something I didn’t see discussed is this: most women are nervous when they announce their pregnancy at work. They know it opens them up to potentially personal questions that they don’t necessarily want to answer. But more than that, they know they risk discrimination against them by their employer for having a baby. Yes, it’s illegal. But we all know it happens and that being “mommy tracked” is a very real phenomenon. We also know that women have their duties reassigned while they’re on maternity leave and never get them back and that some companies find excuses to lay women off when they’re pregnant or on maternity leave. And we know that some co-workers resent having to cover for women on maternity leave.

    It’s a scary time and women are absolutely going to be hesitant in how they approach it. For many women, just making an announcement in the break room or at a staff meeting doesn’t feel like the right approach for that reason. It does feel like a sensitive conversation. And you’re absolutely watching the nuances of co-workers–and especially your boss’s reaction–to see how they’re likely to respond. A lukewarm response doesn’t come across as “I don’t know if you’re happy about this so I’m being cautious.” It comes across as “I’m not happy about this and you have to worry about being treated worse as a result.”

    This doesn’t matter so much when we’re talking about an intern. But it absolutely matters as to other coworkers. Feigning enthusiasm is a way of telling women that you’re not going to change how you view them professionally – you see this as good news and not career suicide. Just saying something like “That’s big news” in a neutral tone does not do that.

    Moreover, nitpicking how people tell the news – behind closed doors vs. in a meeting vs. one-on-one – kind of puts women in an awkward position as to whether they did this nervewracking, stressful thing “right.” I recently told my co-workers I was pregnant and I did do it behind closed doors. I wanted to tell people I worked with (and I’m at a law firm and work with a lot of people on a lot of different unrelated matters) privately, so that we could talk about their concerns about each of their projects one-on-one. But I also didn’t want to be the focus of a big “group” meeting. That, I think, is a reasonable decision. Did someone have a flash of “am I in trouble” when I came into their office and closed the door? Who knows. But private conversations are a fact of workplace life and it’s okay for people to want to deal with big, sensitive news that way.

    1. WellRed*

      I was really surprised by all the comments criticizing how she chose to spread the news. To me, that was a perfectly normal expected way to do it and…it wasn’t her question. And FFS, just say congratulations! in reaction to the news. No need to parse all sorts of scenarios that the child is unwanted or anything.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Hear hear. I was like “LOL WUT” when people started acting like they get to choose how someone announces their very personal information.

      It’s pregnancy, it’s something that most women simply couldn’t hide and keep secret even if they really wanted to. We as members of society need to let them do what they feel most comfortable with, this is their life, their bodies, their news FFS!

    3. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I appreciate this perspective! I do think that the way you tell it matters when you’re a manager yourself – it’s part of your job to care about the way you share things with your direct reports – but I totally see the advantages of just being enthusiastic in response regardless of your own personal discomforts, so that you project that image to the person sharing the news. I’ll make sure to do that in the future. Thanks!

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      This is an excellent comment. Could I use it in a post, credited to you? (It’s okay to say no if you didn’t want it having an audience beyond the open thread.)

  166. Ace in the Hole*

    Government worker here – on my annual review 2 months ago my manager recommended me for a step increase, which usually go into effect in July for the new fiscal year. I just got paid for the first half of July and…. no step increase, just a cost of living adjustment. It’s not rude to ask about this, right?

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Not rude. Do go in with a curious tone, rather than an accusatory one. Mentally frame it as, “Clearly it was out of DirectManager’s hands and I’m just wondering why.”

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      As a federal employee, I would say no, not rude, but you might consider instead talking to HR or to someone in your payroll office, since experience has taught me that federal managers, in general, don’t know much about how the pay and benefits system works when it comes to an out-of-sync issue like yours. Good luck. Please let us know what you did, and how things worked out.

  167. BeeGee*

    Currently unemployed, I have 5 years of work experience at two small, independent firms in a specific industry. I have left both firms feeling frustrated and burned, and because of this, I am wary to apply to similar organizations. I still apply occasionally to smaller groups, but I have been trying to also apply to larger organizations that are still in the same sub-industry or for roles that I have translatable skills for but are in a broader industry.

    My first concern is that my resume might turn-off organizations that are not specific to my sub-industry because my accomplishments are often highlighting items with sub-industry specific language and software. I know I could work to highlight other items on my resume that might be better for a wider field of roles, but I’m worried it might weaken my resume because it would require me to throw out a lot of accomplishments currently on my resume. Does anyone have any suggestions with severely altering their resume/creating a second resume that can be sent out for roles outside of their direct experience?

    My second concern is that my experience with smaller organizations might be inhibiting me from being noticed my larger organizations in my sub-industry because they either want candidates that come from large organizations or it’s easier to understand a candidate’s work experience from a well-known company rather than an unknown company. Any suggestions or success stories on overcoming this issue?

    Thirdly, am I overreacting to shying away from applying to more roles at small organizations? The aspects I didn’t like from working at two small firms in my sub-industry was the lack of clarity or availability for upward growth (i.e. no structure or too small for moving from junior to senior teapot analyst or a long timeline to teapot manager), got tired of “wearing too many hats” and having to take on tasks that were less focused on developing in my field and instead more administrative, and a lack of quality mentorship/collaborative work with more senior members. Am I being unfair for feeling like most of these firms will have similar issues?

    1. Kiwiii*

      Is there anyway to generalize your accomplishments to make them less sub-industry specific? Instead of talking about “triple glazed 8 in formica teapot spouts” just talk about “teapot spouts”. Note what the software does instead of what it is. I moved from one state bureau to another, and while none of the heavy database systems really overlap, that didn’t mean I wasn’t head and shoulders above people who had never used a heavy database system.

      The small organizations thing is probably not completely unfair, but instead of not applying you could make sure to ask about the things you haven’t liked in the interviews? Ask if you’ll be made to wear several hats, make sure you know how many is too many before you go into the interview.

  168. Ellie*

    I supervise a paid summer intern who takes full advantage of any extra refreshments in the office. We work in government, so everything is coming out of staff pockets, not the company dime. She helps herself to the “oops I forgot my K-cup” supply everyday. Whenever there’s cookies, she packs some up for home. Today we had staff lunch and she was cruising for unopened bags of chips and other items before we had finished cleaning up. She literally took a jar of salsa out of my hands while I was talking about figuring out who brought it and giving it back to that person.
    I’ve tried to be understanding that she’s a) young and inexperienced; b) not paid as much as the rest of us (but still very well in comparison to many internships); and c) may have home things going on that I know nothing about. But, when is enough enough? Should I broach this with her (how?) or just not let it bother me (internship will be over in 4 weeks)?

    1. Anon for now*

      Is it causing a hardship at all? I would pick my battles. What normally happens with unopened bags of chips or leftovers? Personally, I wouldn’t care whether or not I took home leftover salsa, so I would let that go. The chips also don’t seem like a big enough deal to actually say something. If she is packing up cookies before people are done, tell her she needs to wait but if they are leftover, it really isn’t worth it. For the k-cups, you could tell her that those are paid for by the staff and really only meant to be used occasionally when someone runs out of their own supply. She may honestly not know. Since that is every day and results in staff paying more for coffee, that is the battle I would fight. Leftovers aren’t worth it.

      1. Kiwiii*

        I also am seeing the kcups as the only thing that would actively bother me. Maybe next time it’s running low, remind her that they’re staff provided and/or ask if she can pick some up?

        1. valentine*

          Have a script ready in case she tells you she’s living off the leftovers and can’t afford K-cups. You don’t want to panic-gush, “Take as much as you want and forget I said anything! It’s fine!” Because it’s not fine and there are places where they don’t have kid gloves.

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Yeah, I wouldn’t be irked if it happened once or twice, but if it went from there usually being second day snacks every time to their NEVER being second day snacks because someone who was in no way contributing to the snackage was making off with them in the night, I would probably get peeved. Food hogging is why the Hamburgler has no work friends, y’all.

    2. fposte*

      I see it differently than Anon for now: this is an intern learning office ways, and you’re supervising her. I think you absolutely can say something. “Jane, I know things are tight as an intern, and sometimes we can provide you with extras if you ask. But part of the education of being an intern is learning office norms, and it’s not good practice to treat the office food as a personal supply. The K-cups aren’t for everyday use, and leftover food isn’t automatically open for the taking. Please wait to be invited before you take food away in future.”

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        + 1 Telling her this now as an intern will save her a lot of embarrassment later.

    3. Alphabet Pony*

      I think you need to talk to her. And also address individual instances in the moment if you can.

      The salsa-snatching particularly stood out to me – if she ever does that again I would address it then and there.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The fact she snatched a jar out of your hands is what would have set me off, the rest of the things I agree with the others about for the most part. Oh you’re taking the left over chips that are laying around unattended, the extra cookies are being packed up, fine whatever, we all hear about the “last cookie that nobody seems to want to be the one who takes it” story. But you don’t snatch anything out of someone’s hand, ever.

      Also of course the K-Cup thing. I would speak with her about that. Explain they’re for the occasional emergency that comes up, not daily consumption. Tell her she needs to bring her own coffee since it’s not provided by the agency and that the emergency pile is for the one-off day that she realizes she forgot her new supply of kcups at home.

      It’s a kindness for you to speak up. Otherwise she’s going to keep these bad habits ignorantly. At least give her a choice to continue to act poorly and damage her reputation by alerting her of the issue that’s growing. She will be doing herself damage in other offices who won’t look as kindly and curiously upon the situation as you do. I know around here someone would be all “What are you doing?! We don’t take non-perishable left overs home like that.” We leave cookies in the breakroom because they’ll be eaten in the morning. The only thing I have encouraged people to take is donuts because day old donuts tend to be sniffed at and left to wither away.

  169. Lissa*

    Just a mini vent. My main employer (contract) has been pushing to put me/others on as full time for awhile now – then out of nowhere I got an email from someone I don’t know well, on my main supervisor’s first day of vacation, going out to me and the two other contractors that they’re hiring for a few part time permanent positions. The rate of pay is really bad compared to what I’m getting now, and the hours won’t come close to covering what’s needed – according to another contractor they have been ignoring my actual supervisor’s advice on this, so I can’t help but see them posting it on the first day of her vacation as intentional. The thing is that there are like, seven people who do this job in town and nobody is going to apply at that wage, so I have no clue what they are thinking. The other contractors are pissed. I like the idea of being made permanent but this seems like a major cluster . . .

  170. Laura H.*

    Not sure if it’s work related enough (it’s not my work but) so if it’s better left for tomorrow’s thread, I understand.

    I can’t quite put my finger on how I feel about this- it’s between a “something’s fishy” feeling and a “Something is rotten in Denmark” feeling.

    There has been a lot of turnover in my church’s parish staff in less than a year and as a congregant, and a volunteer with two of the recent areas that were abdicated- it feels bothersome. The leavers were well-established in their positions, and while I understand each side has their partialities, and as such I won’t get an unbiased answer, the amount of transition in less than, but almost a year is kind of mind-blowing to me. (I also don’t think either of those most recent two took the prospect of leaving anywhere near lightly.)

    I’m not in the know, but I’m not stupid either. And as a church is sorta heavily reliant on good relational, competent staff, and in my uneducated/ I’m not a manager opinion, they seem to be dropping good, competent, time-proven, and well-vetted (by nature of their work and longevity) employees at what seems to be a drop of a hat just seems ill-advised. (Again in my non-professional, minimally informed opinion.)

    The recently abdicated positions are ones that deal with children and youth, their parents, and the volunteers that assist. (Those do intersect somewhat, in my case, I just volunteer) How watchful should I want to be with this whole thing, or is it more of a “not my problem, watch what happens” kind of deal?

    (“Abdicate” is used as more of a neutral term, as I don’t know all the details or if the staffing changes are the same or differing circumstances.)

    1. fposte*

      I’m not sure where you’re feeling the rottenness might lie, but in 2019, when I hear that a church is quietly getting rid of established employees who worked with youth, I definitely would be suspicious as well–of the church and of the former employees. If it doesn’t involve abuse issues, they sure are handling it in a way that makes it look to bystanders like there were.

      1. Laura H.*

        I definitely have good suspicion that it’s (thankfully) highly UNLIKELY to be abuse-related- they take (and have taken) that very seriously. I’m asking more of a it’s a good portion of the staff that has left positions and been rehired for in the past year. At least 5 out of 20ish. The two positions involving youth (elementary and secondary coordinator level positions) are merely the latest in a string of “changing of the guard”

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Was there a change in the leadership (pastoral, board, etc)? Or a change in the denomination?

      I know of at least two major denominations where people feel very strongly about recent doctrinal & policy decisions at the national & international levels. Some people are distancing themselves from their denomination. In other cases, they are switching from one congregation to another based on which side of the debate they are on.

      Or, if they are longtime employees, could there be a change coming up in the pension plan or other benefits that make it advantageous for them to leave now rather than after the new policy kicks in?

      If you’re looking at a specific date range for these departures, what event do you think was the inciting incident?

      1. Laura H.*

        Last pastoral change was 5 years ago, but there is a newish position of parish operations director- never met them, and I don’t think the person is a parishioner at our parish (not that it’s required to be but I’d prefer someone have an investment in the group’s well-being and growth and be known by the parish)- that seems to be driving a lot of the changes/ is the only fairly recent change that coincides nicely with the string of departures and new hirings.

        I’m probably way more concerned about the most recent changes with the children and youth positions because I’ll be volunteering for one successor during the school year for middle school faith formation and for the other to help with VBS next summer. Fit and ability to work with, recruit, and retain volunteers of all ages and varying abilities, and communicate effectively and efficiently with parents is as essential to these roles as their education and experience- I’d argue possibly more important.

        I’m not qualified for either of those positions, plus the major turnover- quite a few staff changes in a really short amount of time- gives me pause about wanting to work there.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Is it “they eliminated these paid positions and are replacing them with volunteers only/the existing volunteers now pick up the slack” or “they fired established good at the job people and are replacing them with less experienced TBD people”? If the former it sounds like slash and burn budget cutting (assuming you’re correct in your certainty it’s not about abuse). If the latter…it also seems budget-related but possibly less so. It depends if most of the turnover is people quitting (suggest something structural internally is not well-liked by staff). If it’s people being let go it might just be trying to replace with cheaper staff.

        2. Lurker2209*

          I’m a board member at my church and it’s written into our hiring policies that for staff positions (office manager and parish administrator—later sounds comparable to your operations manager) we prefer to hire someone who is not a member of our own congregation. For one, it’s easier to focus on qualifications and fit rather than feeling obligated to hire a congregant who might have friends on the hiring committee, but would not actually be the best person for the job. Secondly, these staff often benefit from being a congregant at a different congregation where they can have personal and spiritual connections separate from their job responsibilities.

          That doesn’t mean that this operations director isn’t a bad cultural fit for your congregation; I just would see their lack of membership as a red flag.

          It might be wise to speak to a member of the lay board or council and ask for their perspective on the turnover. Sharing perspective with the congregation is part of the role.

          Our church has had similar turnover, mostly in part time music positions. This is partly expected in part time positions; partly due to increased housing costs in our area.

  171. GigglyPuff*

    Work people are weird you guys.

    I brought in doughnuts cause Krispy Kreme having the buy 12 get 12 for $1. I have the boxes in my office, people happy, coming by to get doughnuts. I went into our workroom for a while, someone totally took the box that only had two left.

    Like I don’t care that you took two but anyone I can think who did it has already left for the day. Had to be someone in a different department, so weird. No note, didn’t throw away the box in my office, just so weird. Also just really glad I grabbed the two assorted I wanted earlier out of the box.

    1. Ellie*

      This is along the lines of what annoys me about my intern. Like, I don’t really care about the stuff she takes (it doesn’t cause a hardship and yeah, work people ARE weird), but it just seems like entitled behavior. I don’t even take a piece of candy from someone’s jar without asking!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        It’s very entitled behavior. It would make me not want to bring anything into the office again. Some people really have no home training.

        1. valentine*

          Your issue is they didn’t throw the box away where you wanted it, in your trash, or that you wanted them to leave an empty box for to to toss? (To me, that and only that would be rude.) They felt weird about wanting to or throwing the box away in your office (I would take it to the kitchen or elsewhere because vermin) and the comments here are proof they were right to do so.

    2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I once brought maybe 4-5 dozen cookies to work – a big platter, which I put in the break room so all of my coworkers could share (we had maybe 50-60 employees in the office).

      An hour later, someone had somehow made off with ALL of the cookies. To this day, I like to imagine someone just shoveling them in their bag to take home, or hoarding them at their desk as future snacks. People are so weird with office food.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Especially since they’re in your office, that’s so uh…ballsy and sounds so sneaky too. Like they saw you were gone and just swiftly grabbed the two donuts, box and all!

      Part of me wants to think that they grabbed two because they were taking the extra to another person which happens. I have had people think to snag me something from a shared food-platter and dump it on my desk to find because they know I won’t wander into the breakroom to grab it myself due to my schedule that day or something.

      But that’s the breakroom and it’s so much more free-range than someone’s desk. I would assume that they were for your team or something specific if they were in your office o.o Unless you had sent out an email all “Donuts in my office, guysssss.” and someone mentioned it to the other department randomly so they snuck over to grab one.

      I would assume also that they took the box since they were the last ones and they were going to trash the “evidence” or whatever, which may have been a nice thing or a slightly shady one depending on their motives of course.

      I mean at least they’re gone…and nobody cut the last one in half and then in half again and then in half again ;)

  172. Wordnerd*

    We did a bunch of interviews this week, and one of our candidates brought some blank thank you cards with him. After the interview, he found an out of the way spot, wrote a few thank you notes, and then dropped them back off. He’s right that we’ll be making decisions before snail mail would get back (he interviewed Thursday), so we thought it was a nice idea! Don’t know if doing that is considered too much too soon, but it seems like a good way to navigate the pace of handwritten with the “impersonality” of emails. Have a good weekend, everybody!

    1. Frankie Bergstein*

      This is even better than Grace Hanson’s advice (to write them ahead of time and drop them off on the way out) to the lady her old canary yellow blazer!

    2. Laura H.*

      It’s a YMMV.

      I’ve done the prewritten Thank you, BUT I knew my interviewers. (Went from a Temp to a regular position.)

      But for someone I don’t know, I’d still do email. Or snail mail them.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I like AAM’s advice on this: A good follow-up note reiterates how the interview increased your interest in a position. Dropping off a note within a few minutes of the interview doesn’t give me (as a candidate) time to reflect on that, so I prefer to send an email in about 24 hours.

      Granted, I’m not swimming in offers, so take this with a generous salt lick :p

  173. Lilysparrow*

    I had a Skype interview yesterday for a long-term freelance contract that, as far as I can tell from my research, would be the best gig I’ve ever had.

    I used the advice from this site on preparing for interviews in general and Skype in particular. It was particularly helpful to have a list of my own questions ready – since the work involves interviewing experts to develop content, the HR guy started by asking me for my questions at the beginning!

    It was actually a very pleasant talk. And the nicest part was that he told me before hanging up that he was sending me info about scheduling my next interview with the department manager (final round). No “thanks for your time, we’ll be in touch.” Immediate decision.

    Anybody with a good vibe to spare, please send them for Department Manager Interview Karma!

  174. Not A Sycophant*

    Hi, I recently got a new boss (maybe 3-4 months ago) and my work life has significantly improved, plus we’ve bonded in other areas as we have a lot of similar interests. Basically, I really like them as a boss and a person. My question is: Should I invite my boss to my upcoming milestone birthday celebration? Or is that unprofessional? Note: I’m not a heavy drinker/hard partier so that’s not an issue. It’ll actually be a rather staid affair with my parents in attendance.

    1. WellRed*

      Nope! Maybe if you two had worked together longer and even then, probably not. Especially if it’s family and friends.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It stinks when this happens but yeah, you shouldn’t cross streams like that. It’s also great to be able to keep that good solid fun to it’s own point dynamic in the office, then you don’t get sick of them, you know what I mean? Since you spend 40hrs with them, it’s nice to have that break, even though you could see yourself hanging out by choice as well.

    3. Not A Sycophant*

      Yeah I was sort of leaning towards no, but I wasn’t sure. Thanks for weighing in!

  175. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    As I mentioned a week or two ago, I was eliminated from my role, effective August 1. I’m still feeling a little nervous about finding a new job – especially since I’m planning on relocating to the Bay Area – but I’m overall excited.

    I’m considering doing some temp work when I first get in there, if I haven’t had any job leads, so I can establish myself and get some money. I’m also planning on volunteering, since I work in a community field.

    Is it better to reach out to temp agencies now, even though I won’t be moving out for another month, or should I wait until a few weeks before I go?

    1. cmcinnyc*

      In my experience temping (which was a while ago!), the agencies will want you to come in and test and so their initial intake in person. Most agencies either have a set time of day they ask all applicants to come in, or certain times in a week. If you’re not in town, you’re not available to come in so there’s no point in reaching out too early. Right now is a good time to line up everywhere you want to call/register, but I’d wait to actually reach out until your in town/unpacked/ready to show up job-ready at the office with your resume.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Assuming you have your living situation figured out I’d probably wait until you get a little bit closer to your move date. Temp agencies typically want you to come to the office to meet face to face and fill out I9 and W4 paperwork and possibly take some clerical assessments. Now, if you’re looking to partner with a recruiter on a higher level role, I would start the process right now as finding something permanent would presumably take longer than short term temp work.

  176. Fired Shmired*

    So how much of a harder time will you have with looking for a new job if you were fired from your previous one? I’m asking because it’s been a recurring source of anxiety for me where I mess up something and then get overwhelmed with a fear about getting fired for the next few days. I previously didn’t understand that I don’t need to dedicate myself to my job 24/7 and a job is a mutual contract between employers and employees, that there’s always the idea of people coming and going throughout the years. But when I’m looking at online listings, at lot of the times it’s through a form where one of the questions asks about whether you were laid off or fired before. So for the sake of my sanity, is it possible to still find a decent job if you’ve been fired, as long as it wasn’t for something catastrophic? For example, being fired because you didn’t have the specific skills that the manager required or genuinely not being a good fit with the team culture-wise.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They should also always give you an option to explain why you were fired, which is where you can put in the reason being “wrong fit” if necessary.

      A lot of people have been fired. Tons of them. They find employment and are fine moving forward. I have known people personally and hired others professionally that I know have been terminated.

      Also I know for a fact that everyone I have fired over the years have found gainful employment afterwards.

      In most cases, unless you’re fired for gross misconduct [illegal stuff], you’re also eligible for unemployment benefits. Just remember that because if you’re fired just for doing some silly mistakes or your’e hired to do something you just cannot do [they hire you to train llamas and then decide that really you’re a llama sales person now and you cannot for the life of you sell those llamas, you’ll get unemployment.]

  177. MeriBee*

    I am returning from maternity leave in a couple of weeks. My employer recently announced that they will soon be implementing cost cutting measures which could include layoffs. (Reading between the lines it sounds like layoffs are all but inevitable.) I was told that my position is safe, but I’m worried. I’m especially worried that being absent from work for a couple of months was an unintended test run of sorts for what it would be like for them to function without me there, and imposter syndrome makes me think that I am now an excellent target for any layoffs. Even if I’m safe at first, I do think that my position would put me in a vulnerable position if there has to be a second round of layoffs. My partner assured me that laying me off before or shortly after I return from a protected leave would look really bad for them if I decided to pursue legal action, but I don’t know about that. I think they would be able to easily justify any layoff they need to make because it’s clear there are circumstances necessitating layoffs. They wouldn’t just be laying off someone for using their FMLA.

    This is all very rambling. I apologize. I guess I am having so many thoughts right now. Have any of you ever been in a similar position? How did things work out for you? How awkward was it for you to walk into your place of employment in the middle of all of this? How did you cope?

    FWIW, finding another job elsewhere would be difficult right now. I am not going into the details here, but I will just say that I am extremely unlikely to find a suitable job that comes near to matching what I have now because of my background and general employment opportunities that tend to exist near me.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your partner is right, they tend to not layoff people in your situation given the optics of it and their worry about getting in trouble.

      I think a lot of this is nerves from being away for so long, it’s going to be easier once you get back and notice that things haven’t really changed too much to give you this anxiety. Right now, you can’t hyper focus on the ‘what ifs’ because it’s all outside of your control. You have to find a way to reroute your mind to try to not dwell [easier said than done, I know].

      I grew up with a dad who was constantly in this boat, there were always rumors about the place shutting down, outsourcing or otherwise downsizing majorly. In the end he still made it to retirement [forced early retirement but it was close enough that it is what it is]. So really, it’s normal and kind of human nature to speculate and dwell on the worst circumstances ever that may possibly around the corner. We have to retrain our minds to stop over estimating fear and it’s hard and takes a lot of focused work on it to do so. It’s a natural response to “risk” and to keep us somewhat in line.

      1. MeriBee*

        Thanks. I am certainly the type of person who overthinks things, even when I know there is no point.

        I guess if anything this will certainly be a kick in the butt to make sure I am performing at the top of my game. And of course there is also the renewed energy for the job that can come with time away. I will try to focus on that, and hopefully get so immersed in my work again once I return that the rest falls off.

        I know the environment will feel stressful and out of whack there when I return, because I’ve talked to a couple of co-workers and things have already changed. People are nervous. But maybe it will be easier to be nervous with my wonderful co-workers in person rather than speculating from afar!

  178. Searching Engines*

    For fields that aren’t highly specialized (ex. computer science, business), are the best websites for job listings still Indeed, Craigslist, and Monster? Not sure where else I should be looking for when I’m ready to move on.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Those are still the go-to ones. I guess some people are trying to make Zip Recruiter a thing but as a person who hires, I tried it and it stunk, it seems like job seekers don’t bother with it much either but something to keep in mind. They are supposedly looking across a lot of job boards but those are like unknown “That’s a website what?” places like and jobs.com etc.

      You can also try LinkedIn!

    2. merp*

      I bet most fields have some sort of professional association, which frequently have job boards, if you’re looking for more options.

    3. WellRed*

      If you are searching in a specific region. See if there is a local job board. We post on jobsin”thisstate”

  179. Clarke Blake*

    Hi everyone, I am looking for some advice or links to where this has been discussed on AAM before ( I couldn’t find anything in a search). My workplace is introducing Proficiency Pay for degrees or training beyond what your job requires and allowing current employees to apply if they had a degree when hired. I have an MEd in Higher Education Leadership and now work as an admin assistant in a county government department (county is about ~65k).

    The form needs to state how the program increased my proficiency. If it is approved, I get a 7.5% raise. I know the transferable skills, etc. but I am looking for suggestions on specific wordings, impact, etc.

  180. Depressed-CP*

    How do you start to dig into a different career field when it feels like you’re not good at anything? I’m in HR right now, with the SHRM-CP in a managerial role (think just below head hr manager) but I just don’t see this being where I want to go with my life forever. I’ve been sort of semi-applying for jobs, but not making any progress. I feel really discouraged, and like I need a reality check. Is it normal to work 55-60 hours a week with a 45+ minute commute (a forced move to another local location by the corporate office when I was hired for the location where I moved)? I work six days a week now and I’m just so exhausted that I don’t know what to do or how to branch out. I’m terrified of being bad at everything in whatever I do, or falling into the same pattern of being so miserable that I wish bad things would happen to me to keep me home. I honestly fantasize about having mono, but are all jobs just…like this?

    1. WellRed*

      No, it’s not normal to work 55 to 60 hours per week in most jobs and certainly not in HR.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Six days a week?! 60 hour weeks?! For an HR role?! No, that’s not normal at all! Do yourself a favor and go read yesterday’s thread about the hours other work and see where they land, lots of HR folks are around here and confirm that they don’t work as much as they’re working you. They sound painfully understaffed and like they’re stretching their current staff way too thin.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Also I’m sorry you’re in this situation and it’s wearing you out, that’s completely normal. People are not built to work those outrageous hours. This is why fast paced, high stress jobs result in quick burnout and health issues for those who do stick it out way past their expiration dates.

          1. Depressed-CP*

            Thank you for your compassionate words, I appreciate that. It makes sense, I’ve only ever worked in an industry that is pretty fast paced and all hours, so I have no idea what ‘normal’ is.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I have good news for you though.

              You’re HR with what seems like a good amount of experience! So you may want to shift out of that at some point but right now, you could find a lateral move, out of your current industry into a real 9-5 track for awhile. Take a breather and use that free time to figure out what you really do want to do long term.

              I nearly killed myself in a job that had similar hours, only it was 60 hours crammed into 5 days plus some weekend nonsense via email/remote activity. Now I struggle to fill 40 hours a week on average. So there is relief out there and you will not be stuck there forever. It’s like a rollercoaster, you just have to stop the junky ride and get off!

    3. Anon for now*

      If you are worried about explaining why you want to leave, you can cite the increased commute since they moved your location. That is a very neutral reason that is easy for anyone to sympathize with.

  181. HR Hopeful*

    Hello! First time commenting!

    I graduated college in 2018, had a full-time position in a nonprofit for about 1 year, and then started teaching English abroad. This was a dream of mine to try doing. After a few months, I’ve decided that this isn’t something I want to pursue long-term. I’ve also decided that my previous goals of working in international education or travel are no longer fields I’m interested in.

    I’ve been doing some research, and I’m now really interested in getting into the HR field. I think the entry-level positions are a great match for my skill set. I’m really drawn to the possibility of advancement and eventually being in a management role as well. I’ve started to research the field to make sure that I’m interested, and I have been nothing but excited.

    The issue: many HR positions want someone who has a Bachelor’s in HR and/or had an internship in HR. I’m also concerned about my job history; 2 jobs in 2 years. Before that, I did have a college job in the career services department for 3 years. These last 2 jobs have been about exploring my interests, but I know that I need to really commit to my next job.

    Does anyone have any advice about how I can make myself more competitive when applying for HR positions when I return home next year? Thank you so much!

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      Check out your local chapter of SHRM as you get closer to returning from home. They usually have a litany of events including networking that you should be able to attend (I can’t remember if you need to pay to join the organization or not–sorry).

  182. Can I get a Wahoo?*

    Curious on people’s thoughts on this: In the first five years of post college working, I had a either a promotion or title change every year (going from Associate to Senior Associate and up etc). I’m now in a new job at age 27 that I’m loving as an Assistant Director, but I know that there’s no level above me aside from my boss. And from what I’ve heard, raises besides COL are pretty rare.

    How long would you stick around? I worry that I’m going to start to feel that I’m running in place. Or is this how most jobs work? The pay and benefits are fair for the industry, and most of my colleagues have been here 15+ years.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you stay around long enough, you may be able to slide into a Director’s role, most would want probably around 7-10 years in your assistant role to show you’ve mastered that and would probably be ready for the promotion to the director.

      When you get into that last leg of your mid-level or early stage to your senior level, it requires more “stick it out and wait.” The first few years are a whirlwind with promotions and increased responsibilities in general because of them being lower elevation. But once you get into leadership and second in command kind of roles, then it takes a long slow and steady period to prove you’re ready for that major leap to the top.

      Continue to invest in networking and getting known in your industry, that way you’re in the know for when director positions open up, since they are also more rare since often if someone is good at their job, they retire there, they don’t bounce around too much in the executive world unless it’s an incredibly crazypants industry of course and high stakes kind of work.

      When you have more experience in your level, you will also be able to command more salary, so that’s when shopping around outside your current company to see if you can get a better offer. Lots of places do only offer standard COLA and therefore, the only way to make a decent amount more is to leave for another firm.

  183. akaDaisy*

    One of my applications has been updated to “pending interview” which had me giddy, and then yesterday at work I get hit with a random raise. To clarify: we don’t get COL raises. Raises aren’t guaranteed in any form. My experience has been receiving a random bump up every 3 years. Yesterday I got 10%.

    I appreciate the raise and I know my contributions are valued, but there is no room for advancement or development above me. There are no reviews, I have no metrics to meet, no annual COL raises as mentioned above, and the benefits as a whole are subpar. I know looking for another opportunity is a smart and reasonable choice and yet… Ugh, this raise has me conflicted :/

    1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Hahaha, one raise doesn’t mitigate all the things you’ve mentioned, even if it’s substantial. Do you love your job? Does the 10% make a material enough difference in your life that you want to stop job-searching? That’s OK! 10% is huge, and there’s a lot that I’ll put up with in a sub-par job for a lot of money. But if you feel more or less the same way as before about your job, just somewhat less poor, then I think you should keep looking; giving you a raise is a retention tactic, but you’re under no obligation to make sure it works for them :)

    2. Triplehiccup*

      I would think of that raise as an opportunity to be extra picky about my next position, but I would not stop looking.

  184. PhantomAngel2728*

    My entire department was laid off as our jobs are being outsourced to an external company in order to save money. The company who manages us is trying to get us positions in other facilities (they are a large corporation). I have had two interviews with a supervisor in one of the facilities and I believe they are going to make me an offer. This is where my problem comes in. I was written up two years ago for a serious offense. I regret it deeply and I feel like I have grown a great deal from that experience. I have received excellent performance evaluations since that time. Since this is being considered a transfer, how likely is it that the write up will be shared with the new supervisor/company? My biggest fear is that I will get offered the job and at some point the write up will be seen by them and they will rescind the offer. I just wish it was out in the open so I could address it. I’ve discussed it with several colleagues and my two supervisors and all tell me I should not bring it up but should be ready to address it if it does (which I am). Most of them don’t think the write up will be part of my file. I believe it will. This has me beyond stressed out.

    1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Can you email HR at your current company (or whoever you think “has” the file with the write-up in it) and ask if it would or would not be shared in this circumstance? That seems like next logical step in double-checking.

    2. Morning reader*

      If you’ve discussed it with supervisors who have experience with how your company files “write-ups” and they say it’s not an issue, I’d believe them. I think either it’s not in your file (in which case you don’t have to worry about it), or it is in your file and they will be able to see it before they make an offer, so they wouldn’t make you an offer and then rescind it. A long way around to say that either way, there’s not only nothing you can do about it, but your “biggest fear” scenario is a very remote possibility. It would require people so bad at hiring (those that fail to do due diligence but then put too much weight on things they find out later, by accident) that you wouldn’t want to work for them anyway. 99% chance it is nothing to worry about.
      I hope it all works out for you!

  185. baguette*

    I saw one of my coworkers take candy out of her team member’s desk drawer (It was past 5 and the team member had left the office). She noticed that I saw and told me that she couldn’t help herself and would email her team member (she’s the direct supervisor of that team member) letting her know she did that.

    I thought this was strange, so I asked a friend who works in HR what she thought about it. She said it really depends on their relationship and it’s not that big of a deal. What do you guys think?

    1. Alianora*

      Yeah, I think it depends on their relationship. There are definitely people I’ve worked with where I wouldn’t care at all, and they wouldn’t care either.

      Her response about not being able to help herself was a little strange, though, which makes me think that the team member wasn’t already ok with it. Or could be that you seemed judgmental when you were looking at her and that made her more defensive than she normally would have been.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Eh. It’s really not your business unless it was outright stealing of valuables.
      Fir all you know the coworker told her to help herself to the candy stash.

    4. fhqwhgads*

      I’ve definitely in previous jobs had a situation with a boss or a peer where one of us said “I have snacks in this drawer” and it was a known thing between us that the other could occasionally take some, or that one so frequently offered to the other even if she did take some without the other person around and without asking, she had reason to believe they’d be fine with it. The way she reacted to you noticing sort of suggests this isn’t that? But it also still could be, and possibly she reacted that way because she knew you wouldn’t know and thus it’d look otherwise. So it’s totally possible this is chill between them. It’s also possible the other person will feel like “boss stole my candy!” There’s no way to tell from the outside at this point.

    5. Kat in VA*

      Eh, it depends. I keep a small stash of Ferrero Rocher in my desk for one of my execs who gets cranky after lunch. He knows they are there and I wouldn’t bat an eye at him digging in the drawer for one if I wasn’t around. Several of my smoking buddies know there’s an “emergency pack” of smokes (with like 7 cigs in there) and a lighter if they forget/run out. It wouldn’t bother me if one of my 4 execs were looking for a pen or whatever and saw the Snickers bar and went “ooh Snickers nomnom” as long as they told me about it and replaced it later.

      However, if you’re not one of my “people” and I only know you in passing? Hell no, you don’t get to root around in my desk. Having a big bowl of snacks (mini Kind bars, jerky sticks, fruit leather, and the like) on the counter of my desk has forestalled most of the desk-digging.

      Overall, don’t worry about the supervisor rummaging for candy. Not your circus, not your monkeys.

    6. Food Sherpa*

      Relationship and culture are key. As many above stated, there wouldn’t be a problem in their office. However, my partner works in a large cubicle farm and had many things stolen from his desk. Personal items, charging cords, packaged snacks, reading glasses, basically anything that wasn’t locked up would disappear. Even with cameras watching the sales floor! He greatly appreciates it when others tell him who was in his personal area. Now everything comes home with him every day.

  186. jDC*

    Thanks for the advice last week on whether I should get a separate PC laptop to work from home to all. I happened to see a Dell commercial on a sale they are doing and grabbed a laptop and monitor (i need a bigger screen sometimes for accounting with my old eyes and spreadsheets) for $500! Appreciate the advice!

  187. team names*

    The mini-team that I’m on at work tends to be assigned projects that are meatier and strategic and have a fundamental impact on our product. The other teams-within-team have straightforward names that describe what we work on. My boss asked me to pitch them a few names to describe our teams — his ideas were somewhere in the world of strategic intiatives or opportunities. Have any of you been on teams like this? any ideas?

  188. Teresa*

    What are your top tips for getting over a job rejection?

    I found out two weeks ago that I didn’t get a job I really wanted (I’d made it to the final round and they told me it was close – it’s also a very unusual job and organization and I think it is going to be tough to find one as amazing – they also treated me incredibly well throughout the interview process). Two weeks I’m still feeling really sad about it and also finding it tough to stay motivated in my current job.

    What helps to get through this post-rejection mourning period? Any tips gratefully received!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      For me, a combination of yoga, spending time hiking/outdoors, and celebrating failure milestones (50 job applications and no offers? PIZZA PARTY!). Seriously, I’m planning a pizza party to celebrate that milestone.

    2. 653-CXK*

      If it was a job I knew from the start I wasn’t getting, I didn’t worry about it.

      The two job rejections that smarted were (a) when I got an email back from the recruiter and he said, “I presented it to the big boss and he said we weren’t moving forward,” and (b) when I came away from another job confident that I got it, and was told that the hiring manager rejected everyone.

    3. The temp*

      Maybe my bad experience will make you feel better. I once applied at a very well known company that almost every women would love to work at. When you mention the name people say “oh wow”, do you really get all those free teapots ?”- and yes they do give out plenty of teapots.

      Anyway, I never received an offer….Until a recruiter called about a contract assignment. It seemed perfect. Close to home, good pay, great hours, the most beautiful office you will ever see. (It seemed like the Ultamite -not a typo-assignment). I didn’t think I would get it but I did!

      Within the first four hours I realized I was working in a living hell. I was the fourth employee in the last 18 months. I couldn’t wait for the assignment to be over. Yes, I did get a lot of teapots, which as nice but it was nothing made up for the mean incompetent people working there.

      So it may sound nice but you can’t be sure it was that great.

  189. The temp*

    I’m not sure if anyone is still around but I need a little feedback.

    I have been trying to find a permanent position for a long time (I have been doing contract work).
    I do get some interviews but no offers. I know this usually means your resume is ok but your interview skills are lacking.
    But….
    The positions I interview for are almost never filled. (I check linkedin- even a year after the interview).
    So I’m wondering what is wrong that employers who actually fill positions never call? Maybe it is my resume and not my interview skills?

    Any theories? Don’t worry about hurting my feelings – I’m not getting offers so something is wrong.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      First, LinkedIn may not be accurate in telling when a position is filled.

      Second, your resume and cover letter just get you in the door, so it’s unlikely that’s the issue. It sounds like you’re assuming your interview skills are not the reason; could you unpack why? Have you ever received feedback from your interviews for? If not, start there.

      The only other possibility is your references, if you reached the reference checking stage.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      It doesn’t necessarily mean your interview skills are lacking either (though it never hurts to practice them). You may interview just fine, but for whatever reasons you simply aren’t the strongest candidate or best fit.
      So many factors: salary, experience, background, references and other competitors internal or referred by employee candidates.

      This happens to me quite often too. The interviews go well, but they choose someone else. This happened recently after a particularly fantastic interview and I later saw a lower level role (one I’d be way overqualified for) on the same team was posted, which indicates to me they promoted internally.
      Happy someone got a promotion but sad for me! Oh well! You move on and keep at it.

    3. Sam Foster*

      Companies have tons of reasons for what they do. It could range from the ad was set to auto-renew or it is constantly refreshed so they always have a pool of candidates if they do decide to hire to change in priorities, pulled requisitions, budget problems, etc.

      I would try to put it out of my mind.

      That being said, if you are applying for only one industry or one size of companies perhaps you should cast a wider net?

      Good luck!

    4. Kiwiii*

      My manager’s entire team has turned over in the time since I’ve been here, either because we’re a good stepping stone to other departments or due to retirements. As the admin, I help a lot with the interview processes and can maybe give some insight. We work with the HR department who will screen the resumes through a filter to see if they’ve included enough of all of the qualifications we’ve asked for. Then, someone in a similar role to the one we’re hiring for, will manually go through the resumes that got screened through and mark on a scale of 1/100 how well they fit the criteria. Those with a score over 70 are able to be interviewed, my manager then chooses how many people she’d like to interview (usually 8-13) and we get the top scoring resumes to contact for interviews.

      The things that HR and the individual manually going through the resumes are screening for are not necessarily the same things that my manager is looking for. For a certain teapot coordinator position, I could probably have included my work temping for another bureau and working with teapot related systems and gotten through to the interview stage. However, my manager knows that the people who do best in the teapot coordinator role have teapot supervisory experience, usually from nonprofit or county level positions. We ended up only really having about 3 “good” candidates from what was likely dozens of resumes, even though 11 had made it to me. If none of them had interviewed will in the second round, we’d have probably started over or asked HR to reassess the listing/what they were screening for. It’s sometimes a frustrating process, but that doesn’t mean that you’re the problem at all.

  190. AliceBD*

    Incredibly late to this thread, but let’s see what happens. I was laid off in February and started a new, much better job in April. I would have taken the new job regardless as it is a very good fit (and more $), but I also really liked my boss — had some really good ideas of where we needed to take our department, trusted me to do things, and was invested in professional development. After less than a year at my company my boss recently left due to family reasons. I don’t think HR has posted the job yet, but I’m pretty sure they’re going to hire someone for this position again. Has anyone ever dealt with their boss leaving 3 months after they started a job? And/or had a new boss come in from the outside? All boss changes I’ve had have been internal, where I knew the new person I was reporting to already.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve had a lot of changes in my first level managers, almost all internal but rarely did I know the person (and vice versa) before they became my manager. (Note I can finally use “they” since I have my first female manager in 15 managers!)

      I think it’s going to be highly dependent on both the personality of the manager and the role of the manager in your daily work. There are lots of stories of bad managers ranging from ineffective to malicious. My own experience has been very benign. The best managers I’ve had have been advocates for me/my career and seem interested in what I’m doing and help when they can. The worst managers have been … indifferent is the best term, I guess. I had a few where I didn’t speak with them for months at a time. Or really any time out side of 6 month reviews. And then we would reorg and I’d have a new manager and be starting from scratch with them. My work doesn’t require close management coordination for the most part, but it did stall out my career.

      So I guess my advice would be, get to know your manager and advocate for yourself as needed, particularly if they don’t seem inclined. Make a point of connecting with them on a regular basis, at least once a month or more depending on the kinds of updates they need from you.

  191. confused_in_southeast*

    Long story: TLDR seek internal promotion and external promotion simultaneously?

    I’m a high-level individual contributor in a very specialized technical field (to use this website’s parlance, I am very good at finding Martian teapots). Due to the specialization of the work, it’s a relatively small community of people with the level of experience that I do. So while I am regularly contacted by recruiters for lateral and next-level positions, they would require relocation and I am not in a position to relocate.

    The flip side of specialization is that there just aren’t many options to work in my field in my home city, except for where I work now [Giant Corp In Well-Known Industry]. So while I am very unhappy where I am, I have very few options – and trust me I’ve tried. I’m trying to make the best of my situation, but it is unbearable due to the politics of my work area. There was a recent opening for an internal promotion in my field – in a different section of the company, with a banger title to boot – that I think I’d be great at. I met with the hiring manager, he encouraged me to apply, and I think I have a good chance if I call in some coworker references as favors.

    Several months ago, I was contacted by Unknown Startup in Well-Known Industry for a major title bump and significant pay increase in the field (think $70k+ more) but it would require relocation. (similar cost of living to my city). Big Guy at Unknown Startup knows me from when he was Big Guy at Giant Corp, and every couple months the recruiter would ask if I was still interested. I kept saying no, I don’t want to relocate, but I’d be willing to do half at home, half time in the company’s city.

    Well, recruiter contacted me this week and said they’re willing to do a partial remote situation, and I’ll talk with them about it soon. I think I would be happy with either this job (major pay raise, now we’re talking like close to another $100K, and I am not doing well enough where that isn’t a lifechanging salary increase) or the internal promotion (small pay raise, cooler title at Giant Corp, (potentially) better work, home every night… and I do have a good network of people I respect and enjoy working with).

    1) Is it deceitful to pursue both routes? I don’t know how terrible it would look if I get the internal promotion, then drop the bomb that I’m resigning (or vice versa with Unknown Startup). Giant Corp is VERY GIANT in my home city, and its former employees are pretty much everywhere here.
    2) Has anybody taken the route of moving from Giant Corp to Unknown Startup and back? I’m concerned that leaving for a smaller company may look very bad a few years down the road… like I couldn’t hack it in the Big Leagues.
    3) Any other advice?!?

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      It’s not deceitful to apply for multiple jobs at once – I guarantee you they’re interviewing multiple people for these roles at once. This is business, not personal. Apply to both and see what happens.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’d be really drilling into the startup to figure out what their funding situation is and literally any question I could think of in terms of sustainability. If for some terrible reason the startup doesn’t work, would you be able to find suitable continued employment? Anyone that would give you a hard time about leaving a big company for a giant promotion in terms of both salary and title is someone I wouldn’t be remotely interested in taking advice from. Like…I’d literally probably laugh in their face and ask them if they were serious. As for the optics, sure your current company with be a little chapped if you get promoted and then shortly leave afterwards but you can simply be truthful with them and explain the situation. Lastly, you need to look at the regret factor, if you don’t go to the startup and it blows up how are you going to feel about it?

      1. confused_in_southeast*

        Thanks – I’ve definitely been reading all I can about this startup. Part of the appeal is that the job comes with a (yet unspecified, but presumably large) stock grant. If it does take off bigly, it could reasonably set me up for the life of ease and idle Reddit poop-posting that I have always aspired to. If it crashes after a couple years, well, at least I got some more cash in pocket and diversity of experience.

      2. confused_in_southeast*

        Additionally, if T Boone Pickens is giving me advice on speculative work opportunities, I will listen closely.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It’s not deceitful to pursue both jobs, and you should if you’re a good fit.
      Regarding the Startup: Be very wary! Startups certainly have potential and learning experience, but so, so many new businesses fail, even well run ones. Are you prepared to move to a new city and find yourself unemployed in 2 years? How would you cope if that happens? Hopefully that wouldn’t be the case, but, it’s much riskier with startups so you’ve got to due much more due diligence here.
      And if they haven’t filled this role locally in several months why not?
      I’m not saying don’t do it, but you really need to consider the whole picture here and if moving and that level of risk is right for you.
      If the idea of relocating to that city excites you, and you know you’d be fine there, by all means go for it! But don’t do it just for the $$ in your eyes because with a startup it might not last (and you might decide to be ok with that too!).

      1. confused_in_southeast*

        I wouldn’t be relocating, I’ll be commuting there to be onsite part-time (renting a room / cheapo apartment) and working remotely from home part-time. (details TBD) It’s a shortish direct flight from my home.

        In part, I think they’re having a hard time filling the job because it’s a small city, not like moving to NYC, Atlanta or SF Bay Area where there is a wide talent pool and a lot of appeal other than the job. Because I am in a pretty specialized field, the people who are qualified are “mid-career” and likely are established in their home cities. I was upfront several months ago, that relocation was the only sticking point.

        It is a startup, but is several years old and has (from what I have read) good financials. Of course I’ll conduct due diligence and ask the hard questions. If I’m unemployed in a few years, I will surely be employable and my SO makes enough to cover our expenses, so I’m not worried at all about that.

  192. bunniferous*

    I work in real estate, and sometimes we need work estimates. If your buyer fakes a work estimate to send to me he needs to make sure he fools me because if I can catch it I ga-ron-tee the VA will notice it immediately. At the very least make sure the estimate comes from a company in the same country. Since I know New Zealand is not doing plumbing bids in the American South…..(and yes this is a True Story.)

    I love my job, and people are cray.

  193. Overreacting?*

    Mini rant, with some questions at the end: I recently earned a technical degree in teapot analysis, which is a new field for me, and took my first teapot-industry job at a small teapot firm a few months ago. It’s been a struggle to stay busy, because none of the teapot designers who work above me have had time to train me on the nuts and bolts of our processes. Today, I was told that our receptionist, Sansa, will be taking some intermittent unpaid leave (kind of like an intermittent FMLA arrangement, but the company is nowhere near big enough to be covered under the FMLA), and I will be the one taking over all her reception duties when she’s out. I’m being asked to do this because I’m the newest employee and have the lightest workload. This makes sense to me, and I truly don’t mind pitching in wherever I need to. But I was also told in no uncertain terms that on the days (or weeks) when I’m filling in for Sansa, I will only do reception work, and all my teapot analyst work will be redistributed between the other teapot analyst (who “needs more to do anyway”) and the teapot designers (who “could always just do it themselves”) .

    I’m really, really upset about that last part, for a couple of reasons: I’m worried that people will become reluctant to give me any teapot analysis projects over time, because I could end up having to drop everything and cover reception on any given day, and I won’t be able to get a lot of practical teapot analysis experience under my belt. It’s also an open secret around the office that Sansa will be looking for another job while she’s on leave, and I’m paranoid that this could become a very long-term arrangement. But I can’t tell if these are legitimate concerns, or if I’m just an entitled kid whining about not getting plumb assignments out of the gate. Am I overreacting here?

    1. Wishing You Well*

      Nope, you are not overreacting. Start looking for another job immediately. Sorry this happened.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      This rarely ends well. I’m sorry.
      On the days you’re not the receptionist, keep trying to learn all you can from teapots. But you’re right to feel it’s a demotion.
      And what makes them think you automatically even know how to be a receptionist? If I were asked to preform receptionist duties I would fail. I’m terrible on phones and transferring calls and such. It’s just not what I do or have ever done.

    3. Annie’s mom*

      No. Had the same thing happen to me my first job out of college. Got hired for accounting, got pushed into a customer service/receptionist role over the course of a year, until there was no accounting work really left in the role. Get out ASAP— even if you haven’t been there long, when interviewers ask why you are leaving, let them know that the job description changed once you took the role. They will understand.

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I am guessing you are a woman, and the other teapot analyst is male, right? So you have to take over the “lady job” of receptionist while he gets to do the real substance work because “why would he keep working here if we made him receptionist?”

      Dust off the resume, and start interviewing.

      1. Overreacting?*

        Nothing like that at play here this time: the other teapot analyst is also a woman, she’s just been with the company much longer and is much more experienced. This seems to have more to do with the organization’s financial health than any Title VII-y reasons. (They also know that I went back to school for teapot analysis after a health crisis took me out of the workforce for a few years, so I probably have to eat what I’m served.)

        PS: I love the Daria reference.

  194. ExpatInTheHat*

    I have so many more stories from my job about my coworkers and my boss, who I’m really getting annoyed with (poor planning on his part that he makes into an emergency on all our parts). But I am too tired to think about all of the aggravating things and type them out, so instead I will celebrate that I applied for a freelance position I really want! It would be a side gig (I’d still have to work full time), but it’s in the area I want to go into and would help build up my portfolio of that kind of work!

    I often let deadlines for these things go by with my application half-finished, so even if I don’t get it, I’m proud that I didn’t let the executive dysfunction win this time and got it in! And I continue my studies to get what I need to stay in this country but not in this job…

  195. Zoe*

    Hi everyone,
    I need a quick opinion: I’m applying for an internal position with my 5 current person team. I’m avoiding the pitflls of assuming that the job is mine or thinking I don’t need to present myself in the best possible light. My question is about referring to “our work” or “our team” in the cover letter. On the one hand the person reading this will be someone I currently work with and for daily but on the other hand I don’t wnt to sound overly familiar. I have worked woth this team for 7 years and am already part of the core team. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Warning: I have never hired, so keep that in mind.

      I would find it even more awkward for you not to write with familiarity. I would think to myself, “You’ve been here for 7 years…why are you writing like you’re a stranger?”

      Also, since you know the hiring manager and HR, maybe ask them if they have advice for ehat you should answer in a cover letter? Not the same as “What should I write?”, but “What are some questions you have, since I’m applying as an internal candidate?”

      Good luck!

  196. Tripping Over Red Flags*

    So I just got a response back from a part-time position I applied to …. at 9:30AM on Saturday via a text message. This is a majorly big red flag right?

    2. Boomerang Girl*

      Not necessarily. It could be that the person who sent it to you was out on Friday and decided to catch up on Saturday. That actually might be his/her way of balancing work and life.

      But it may be good to dig into the work culture when you have a chance to ask questions

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      If it’s a service-sector job, at all, this is not weird. I was a supervisor of a place that was open 130 hours a week. If I had to go in on a weekend to cover an open shift, I’d use the slower time to get important work done, and I would consider hiring to be important work, because if I got you onboard faster, you might be able to cover Sunday and I wouldn’t have to be at work on Sunday.

  197. PossiblyEnoughDetailToBeIdentified*

    I seem to be the only person affected – he has an immediate desk neighbour who doesn’t seem anywhere near as bothered by it. I’m almost thinking this really is a *me* problem – I’m so wound up by everything else in the office (including the fact that several people on my team have learned to just ask me how to do things instead of thinking for themselves – and when I (reasonably) say no, they get it wrong to the point where I *have* to fix it! I’ve no proof they’re doing it on purpose but…) that my tolerance is practically at zero.
    *sigh*
    I’ll think about the earplugs idea, and see if I can work remotely a day or two a week – Mr Coughs is a *darling* of my boss (they’ve worked together for about 15 years) so asking for either one of us to move is not going to get much traction. (whole separate issue there – my boss likes having me on the desk next to hers so she can deputise more easily when she’s out of the office)

    *UPDATE* I found out (after posting my initial question and starting my reply) that there are potentially big changes happening across the whole organisation starting from mid-September and there’s a possibility for an internal transfer that Mr Coughs is inelegable for, but that I could apply for. So it turns out my long-term problem could be short-term after all!

    1. valentine*

      my boss likes having me on the desk next to hers so she can deputise more easily when she’s out of the office
      This doesn’t make sense. Even if she needed you to constantly go get stuff from her desk, who cares where you start?

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