open thread – August 2-3, 2019

by Alison Green on August 2, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Hi y’all. I may make a more formal announcement of this somewhere, but for now I’m noting it here: There’s been a real uptick in off-topic comments lately. Traditionally when I’ve removed off-topic comments/threads I’ve left explanatory notes (like “deleted an off-topic thread here about rhinos”) but I’m not always leaving the notes now because the increase is so great. I may move repeat offenders onto permanent moderation (where their on-topic comments will happily be released but their off-topic ones won’t). Please help by staying on-topic! Thanks.

    1. MysteryFan*

      Thank you Allison!!! One of the things I really like about AAM is that we’re all talking about the same thing..

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I apologize for my contributions to this issue. I’ve been a bit off kilter lately and my internal filters get all junky at times.

      1. JSPA*

        Same. I’m recovering from (minor but slow-healing) surgery, with all that entails (medication, boredom, itchy stitches, the sudden, sad realization that an uneventful trip to the bathroom and back to bed has become worthy of notice, uncharacteristic anxiety attacks and always the spectre of the sweaty, unstable litterbox scooping challenge). So I’ve been writing absolute essays.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Also to stay on topic ;)

          Alison, you’re too kind to even bother with explanations in the first place. I personally know if something disappears it’s because you vetoed it because it was against your rules.

          I do understand part of that also is to let people know that it’s been deleted and not to repost it thinking the internet ate it as well but if you start making it a habit to just delete things and let it known, perhaps a sticky in posts to remind people of that, it may save you the work.

    3. Mimmy*

      Good idea – the comments on some non-open threads can get unwieldy; maybe this will cut down on some of that. I’m probably a bit guilty of this myself.

    5. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Cool. I’ve noticed some stuff disappearing lately and it makes perfect sense as an editorial decision. Sometimes discussions wander organically but when your comments are in four figures I can see why you’d want to trim them to strictly on-topic only!

    6. BRR*

      Thank you! I know the comments is a small section of the site and your overall workload. I really appreciate you spending the time and effort to maintain its high reputation.

    7. Fiddlesticks*

      Thank you. This is not Carolyn Hax’s column, which is (somewhat clique-ishly) dominated by off-topic posts, and I love it for NOT being that way. I really do come here to get professional-level workplace and career advice and to check my opinions against that of others who are here for the same reasons; all the personal stuff is pretty well covered elsewhere.

  2. Peaches*

    Happy Friday, all!

    I shared last week about my new coworker who has done a really great job so far, but talks A LOT, and tends to share overly personal details. She wasn’t taking social cues about when to stop. I finally had the courage to kindly cut her off and say “sorry, but I really have to get back to work!” It was easier than I thought, and she didn’t seem to be offended as I’d feared. She still stops me when I’m walking past her desk to and from the printer, but I’ve found that slowly walking away while finding words to end the conversation has worked. She still is a bit kooky, but I guess we all are at times. One thing that happened last week that I found pretty funny, though—

    Her husband came to our office to take her out from lunch. She walked around the office and introduced him to everyone (“Hi Peaches, this is my husband Steve!”) About 45 minutes later, she returned from lunch. She went directly to my desk and said “so, I’m thinking about divorcing my husband. I’m just realizing we don’t have much in common” (she’s been married for over 20 years!) I had to laugh just because she had, not more than an hour earlier, introduced her husband to everyone in the office. It was definitely another one of her overshares, but I was able to cut the conversation off pretty quickly after that!

    She’s a great worker though and a nice person – both more important qualities than her oversharing!

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      She went directly to my desk and said “so, I’m thinking about divorcing my husband. I’m just realizing we don’t have much in common”

      LOL! She probably talks too much to even listen to anything he has to say to know whether or not they have anything in common.

    3. SaffyTaffy*

      I shared a desk with a woman who came back from her lunch-time therapy appointment and started reading me the list she’d written in therapy of why her husband was a bad husband. I was 17 years old. This had actually happened to me before once (when I was 11 and volunteering at a library auction, my adult supervisor had asked me for advice because “sometimes my boyfriend follows me to the bathroom and I don’t like it.”) and ever since that first incident, I had kind of been waiting for a 2nd chance to respond better. So I said, “I’m sorry, but this is making me so uncomfortable. Please don’t read this to me. It’s making me want to cry.”
      That ended really badly, but I’m still proud of myself for saying it.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Many jobs ago, I was introduced to a coworker from another department (we had both worked there awhile but not met because we’re in different buildings) who started off by telling me about her abusive ex who had stolen her identity, so she never knew if her taxes would be accepted or if he’d have already screwed something up for her.

        We had a lot of other things in common but a friendship never really stuck. I got a different job before I had to say anything to her, though.

        1. SaffyTaffy*

          Isn’t that funny, Dust Bunny, you can have lots of things in common with someone but one thing will make it all go off-kilter? I’m assuming it was the overshare part of her personality that made the friendship not stick, anyway. But isn’t that interesting? People are so complex.

      2. Darkened Meadow*

        I’ve a coworker whose kids have to see a counselor; and she openly talks about what’s going on with them in therapy. I find it horrifying that a parent would share such information with anyone. That’s private!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, that is really not great. I hope her kids never find out she’s telling this stuff to outsiders.

        2. Ethyl*

          Oh my god this just reminded me of my previous boss who shared that his 13 year old daughter got her first period. Jesus I cannot believe I blocked that out. Insert screaming emoji here!

      3. Lynn Marie*

        I like the idea of cutting people off by telling them they’re making me want to cry!

        1. SaffyTaffy*

          Lynn Marie, right? Like, when self-centered people pull that stuff, it HURTS you. Why not just tell them?

          1. Partly Cloudy*

            I was on the verge of telling a co-worker that this morning. She was showing another co-worker right next to me a video on her phone and I could hear an animal screaming (in pain?). Normally I’m pretty good at blocking stuff out, especially if I’m really busy/concentrating – which I was – but this almost pushed me over the edge. Luckily it was over fast.

      4. CM*

        SaffyTaffy, I’m proud of you for saying it, too!

        Though both of these oversharing stories are making me laugh, they must be so uncomfortable when you’re in them.

      6. Purrsnikitty*

        That’s actually a very good reply to a very inappropriate sharing. Why/how did it end badly? :( Too much honesty?

    4. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      I’m a chronic over-sharer & I consider it a blessing when people enforce their boundaries. I usually try to give folks a heads up that I (a) AM trying to rein it in and (b) welcome them to pointedly tell me to chill when needed. I don’t mean that it’s other peoples’ job to manage my behavior, just a nod to the fact that it’s an area of weakness for me & I’m aware.

      1. Peaches*

        That’s good to know! I sometimes wonder if my coworker has that sort of awareness. If she did, it’d make me feel less rude to tell her to rein it in a bit.

    5. LizB*

      I have a few coworkers I need to physically walk away from to get them to stop talking, lol. They take it in stride, I think it’s what everyone in their lives does when they want a conversation to be over. Like your coworker, they’re great workers and lovely people, just chatty as all get out.

    6. Peaches*

      UPDATE OF ALL UPDATES:

      I was in the break room eating lunch this afternoon. I was watching a youtube video on my iPad (I watch a variety of things on my iPad during lunch – sports highlights, true crime shows, etc.) Anyway, my coworker comes in and loudly says “You’re not watching any porn on there, are you?!” I laughed uncomfortably and said no. WHO SAYS THAT? I cannot make it up. Man, I’m ready for the weekend!

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Oh Jeez! She’s KOOKY. I hope the office finds her kookiness to be endearing and funny or else I spy trouble ahead. I think it’s funny, but I have a very snark and dark humor, and I probably would’ve come back with:
        Kooky Coworker: “You’re not watching any porn on there, are you?
        Me: “Yup! Lot’s of dick. Makes me hungry for hotdogs.” or something equally stupid or sarcastic.

        1. Peaches*

          I sure hope so too! She truly has been a good employee from a work standpoint so far.

          Haha, I’m not bold enough to give that sort of response, but I’d love to see someone else fire back at her like that. But, the interesting thing is that she doesn’t seem to get nearly as chatty/kooky with others as she does with me!

        1. Peaches*

          I’ve been asking myself the same thing, LOL! Honestly, the rest of our office staff is so incredibly normal, I promise!

      4. Rainy*

        That’s something I’d mention to my manager, honestly. I cannot imagine that not being considered something seriously inappropriate.

    7. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      This could be your sitcom material.

      When I started my job years ago, I was horrified — yes, horrified — by how much incredibly personal information my coworker poured out to me. Like, I was a face in front of her so she knew she had a captive audience (hell, in a bar, you can take your drink and move) and she constantly talked at it. Her & husband’s money challenges. Kids’ medical issues. Job issues. It was tremendously uncomfortable. Once I made what I thought was an innocuous response to one of her long monologues about her kids and she made tracks to the boss’s office and complained that I was “talking about [her] FAMILEEEEEEE!” and I got Spoke To behind closed doors. Had to apologize. Lesson learned–tune it out as best you can and don’t get sucked into conversation about it.

    8. Shake it off*

      The worst is oversharers in a training/lecture context. I had one woman repeatedly interrupt the instructor in a training to overshare, including one extended anecdote about how she believed her son was gay because her hairdresser saw him at some kind of LGBTQ+ event. (A) cishet people sometimes go to LGBTQ+ events, and (B) even if your son’s gay, don’t out him to a room full of strangers!

  3. Karo*

    I need help managing my boss’s anxiety.

    Part of my job is to manage occasional events. Because they’re relatively rare, it’s not a well-oiled machine, so I have made spreadsheets and lists upon lists to help keep me on top of everything, and all of the events I’ve been responsible for have been great (based on feedback from my boss and her boss).

    I have another event coming up this month, and I know that my boss is going to start panicking about every detail, as she has with every other event. She will confirm 15 times over that we have everything we need, she will vacillate over whether our catering order is large enough, she will nitpick and second guess every. single. thing. It’s exhausting. And nothing I say or do makes anything better until the event is actually over.

    On top of this, I’m in treatment for my own anxiety (which she knows – I accidentally overshared), and this is starting to have an impact on my own mental health. I have double and triple checked everything and I am happy to share that info with her, but I can’t keep rehashing it. At some point it’s too late to fix things, so either we’ll have enough food or we won’t, the room will be big enough or it won’t, people will come or they won’t.

    Does anyone have any thoughts or advice on how to keep myself sane and/or how to ask my boss to back off?

    2. Super Anonywoman*

      Is there a way you can front-load the process and come up with checklists and confirmation notes that things are completed? Set up meetings with her ahead of time and keep her updated as things get done?

      I also have anxiety, and it helps me when there is confirmation from others that things are completed and taken care of as a project moves along.

      1. sacados*

        Seconded, and also the great advice from Jules the 3rd down below.
        Are you able to use a tool like Asana? It’s quite easy to use and allows you to set up a shared project with to-do lists, notes, you can attach documents and set due dates, etc.
        That way any time your boss starts panicking about if X is finished or how many mini quiches the caterers are bringing, she can just go herself and check the to-do lists and notes to confirm, without having to come to you every time.

    3. Nott the Brave*

      Reframing can definitely help – when she brings up a concern, don’t think about it as a problem that you have to fix – just some anxiety she’s having. If you can develop status documents or checklists, you can also refer them to her. Example: “I understand why you’re concerned about this, but we’ve already gone over it – here’s the status document/checklist”.

        1. Nott the Brave*

          Thanks! I’m catching up on campaign 2, ever so slowly. I like to joke that it’s my summer reading.

      2. Jenn*

        Giving this reply an enthusiastic two thumbs up. Her anxiety isn’t yours to manage. In fact, she is going to be stressed and micromanage regardless of whether you go through these things it seems. So do what you need to do to keep YOUR anxiety under control, and be the calm, collected one. Also, I find that when my micromanaging partner or boss get into overdrive, giving them something to actually focus on or obsess about helps. “Actually it appears that the whirlygigs are under control, but would you mind checking through the whooziwhats its? I’d love your feedback on that”.

    4. MusicWithRocksInIt*

      Have you let her know it’s too much? Sometimes it’s really hard to push back on your boss, but you need to let them know if something is really bothering you. Maybe “I’ve already double checked on the lama order, is there a reason you are still worried about it? When you ask me to re-check things I’ve already confirmed for you it’s really stressful for me and is taking me away from doing X and Y which need my time. It is also making me really anxious. Are you concerned about my organization? Is there another way we could address this?”

    5. JSPA*

      Is it possible that she hashes over things as a way to quiet her anxiety–that is, it’s a coping mechanism, not a symptom for her–and mistakenly assumes that it works this way for you, as well?

      I’m not sure how to broach this without oversharing further, or telling her how to do her job, which wouldn’t fly.

      First draft: “intellectually and by all past experience, I feel very solid about the current plans, which I have triple-checked. My one source of anxiety is that you’ll demand some last minute change. That fear comes up each time we hash through them. It’s leaving me a mess.

      If you find it helpful to familiarize yourself with the details a few more times, could you take the spreadsheets elsewhere, and page through them with someone else, having promised me that I’m not going to be floored with some hypothetical last minute change?”

      Or, “Re-reading this is wearing me down. It’s as perfect as it’s going to get. We need me to be fresh for the daily logistics, more than we need me to reconsider the options.”

      Or, “we’ve done all reasonable planning. The rest is not in our hands.”

      1. Shannon*

        This! I was trying to think of some clever ways to say please calm the heck right down, you’re making me much more anxious than I need to be about this, and if I’m completely fried, I’m much more likely to overlook X.

    6. SaffyTaffy*

      What has worked for me in these situations is doing what I want someone to do for me. I mean, really, what else CAN you do? So it might be different for everyone, but in my case, I’ll say flat out, “that’s not a rational worry.” Or, “We still have everything we need. That part’s done, so we can move on now.”
      Sometimes this works like an absolute dream. The few times it hasn’t “fixed” their anxiety, though, it still made ME feel in control and confident.
      So what works to manage your anxiety? Use that on her.

    7. Jules the 3rd*

      You have checklists, etc – can you store them someplace where she can check them directly? Something like Box (www.box.com)? If you can’t use a commercial cloud service, ask for an internal cloud server for shared documents. I like Box because of the control it gives over access, and that I can work with external companies.

      – Use this to store your working documents, so that what’s there is always current.
      – Make the logic behind decisions visible, and maybe adjustable so that she can play with what happens to the budget if she wants to add 20 people or a 4th entree. Some things to post might be:
      * $x per person for catering, Y people;
      * Y people is based on A invitations, B responses, C assumption about non-responders attendance rate based on prior events
      * A invitations list (so she can see if Some Important But Obscure Group like Amphibian Counters Of America was invited)(amphibians being important indicators of ecological health)

      – Then share the set of documents with her, tell her she can look at it any time. Maybe just read access for her, but she can download and play with settings if she wants.
      – Set periodic reviews where you walk through those posted files as a project update. Train her to go to the documents instead of to you.

      Good luck.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Coming to say something similar. What about a simple, printed binder? Some people like reassurance of paper.

        1. Marmaduke*

          That also gives the boss an opportunity to check things off herself during check-ins, which some people find very reassuring.

    8. The Ginger Ginger*

      Does she have visibility into the lists you have? Could you clean them up a bit into a shareable format and share them so she can have insight into status of things without having to come to you all the time? Let her obsessively check your lists instead of pouring out her anxieties at you.

      Other than that, maybe an end of the day/week email with status updates sent pre-emptively (you can start weekly in the early stages and get more frequent as the event gets closer). Or as you check things off your list, send a quick email with all your completed items and a callout of the newly completed item. If you can pre-emptively keep her really looped in maybe she’ll feel calmer and be less likely to seek out updates outside of whatever cadence you establish.

    9. Purt's Peas*

      Can you treat this as a work problem? As in, your current frame is, you have to manage your boss’s anxiety. Can you reframe it as, “my boss is taking up a lot of time double and triple checking my work and overconfirming.”

      OK, that’s a little easier to take to your boss. At the beginning of managing an event, you could ask to talk with her: maybe, “for a few events in the past, I’ve noticed that I get a lot of requests for information & confirmation from you about things like catering orders, rental lists, and things like that. I wanted to check with you because, while I have a handle on things like guest estimates for the amount of catering we need, rental lists, and backup plans, the confirmations make me worry that you’re seeing an issue with my work. Is there anything I should be doing differently?”

    10. Ra94*

      This isn’t a way of getting her to back off, but a way of staying sane: could you reframe her panic as a Her Problem and just give neutral, calm, informative answers every time? I have anxiety, too, and my dad is a tremendously anxious person who panics over every tiny detail. I’ve learned that treating it as routine- “yep, I checked the gas tank. Yep, it is still full. And yep, 15 minutes later, it is again still not empty.”- helps me detach from the panic and cuts me off from getting drawn in.

    11. Peaches*

      I don’t have much advice, but I’m sorry you’re dealing with this – I can very much relate.

      My company has an annual trade show every year that I tend to do most of the planning on (we don’t really have a designated person for this, and I’ve kind of become the unofficial event planner). While there is a lot of planning needed for this event, the show has always gone well with no major issues.

      A couple years ago, my boss (who had overlooked my planning of this, but was pretty hands off) was let go, and we had an interim manager from one of our sister offices in the meantime. The year he was our manager during trade show planning was AWFUL. I was stressed out all the time because of how anxious he was about it. He would call meetings constantly “to make sure everything was taken care of.” He made me do things that were super unnecessary in the planning (literally mapping out the room setup in Excel to make sure all the tables could be exactly 5 1/8 inch apart, or something like that, when it wasn’t important AT ALL). I was so relieved when we got a new manager this past year. The show went just as well without the micromanaging manager, and everyone was a lot less stressed about it!

      My best advice would be to say to your boss, “I’ve noticed that you’ve been following up with me quite often on the planning of Event Such-and-Such. Do you have any specific concerns? Just to clarify, I feel like I have a good reign on things, but I wanted to make sure we were on the same page.” She may not be aware of how her micromanaging is affecting you, and if you let her know upfront that you feel comfortable with how the planning is going, she may back off a little.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        “He made me do things that were super unnecessary in the planning (literally mapping out the room setup in Excel to make sure all the tables could be exactly 5 1/8 inch apart, or something like that, when it wasn’t important AT ALL).”

        Just thinking about that is making me SHAKE with rage. How did you keep from ripping his skin off?

        1. Peaches*

          Honestly, it was hard not to, haha.

          I had to constantly remind myself that the event would soon be over with and I could go back to not having his anxious self all over me!

    12. Quinalla*

      Can you preempt some of it with things like: “Our catering order is for 200 people, if we want to modify that is due by X date, so let me know by then if you want to modify or that 200 has final approval.”

      And yes, maybe offer a couple checklist check-ins at appropriate times (1 month out? 1 week out? day before/day of?) so you can both feel more comfortable that it is all handled. I don’t think you want to share all your spreadsheets and checklists with her (though that’s a possibility), but going over a checklist with someone else at critical points isn’t a bad things. It will help you know you are on it and it might help her channel her anxiety into those meetings instead of hitting you with it every day.

      1. Tomato Anonymato*

        Second this! It has worked for me to be preemptive with an anxious boss, and say “I got all this done, we are good on this” and then ask some sort of a question. The boss then focused on the question and felt “useful” having input instead of messing up and nitpicking all that’s been done. I seriously had to come up with fake problems for them to focus on. Distraction is your friend! :-)

        Also, I’d recommend you take into consideration if your boss responds better to hearing or seeing things, and report in whatever their preferred communication is. And having a repetitive system, i.e., always taking about number of guests first, then the menu. That tends to be calming ;-) Make that an agenda so they know they will get to hear about it:
        1. Guest – all on track
        2. Menu – finalized
        3. Question about policy on swinging on chandeliers

        Lastly, “blame” outside parties when needed: We are good with the menu and we cannot change it because the caterer’s deadline has passed.

    13. The Curator*

      I’m that person. Sorry. I do try to reign it in. The person in my department in charge of the details responds with an eye-roll and says got this, and reminds me of the long list of statistics, deliverables, emails, class prep etc that I am responsible for … I get the hint and return to my own work space.

    14. Bopper*

      I would have a tool (spreadsheet/MS Project/whatever) so you can mark off what is done and if she asks you just say, “See the spreadsheet for the latest”

    15. MissDisplaced*

      I do a lot of events, and I can say they can be pretty stressful, especially if you have nitpickers and last-minute people on your team.

      The best advice I have is to START EARLY. Like begin planning way, way early. It’s things running down to the wire and last-minute switches that rev up my anxiety so I try to mitigate that as best as possible. But on the other hand, you reach a point where you’ve done all you can do. I had one event go south because of a hurricane, which meant everyone left early or cancelled. What can ‘ya do?

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Wanted to add that it sounds like you’re doing everything right with the checklists and timelines for what needs to be done. I do the same.

        I think maybe once your boss goes through a few of these, things will become less stressful, you have a plan for them that works, and you realize that if you don’t get your order of cupholder swag giveaways, the world won’t end. LOL!

    16. BeachMum*

      I’m responsible for my husband’s company’s holiday party every year and he is exactly like this. I would quit except that I don’t get paid for it, he’s my husband, and no one else would do the job. Fortunately, I love him. He’s a terrible boss to me for this one event, but I’ve learned (over 12 years of throwing the party) that he’s going to need to know every detail so I overwhelm him with emails.

      You might try the technique of many, many emails about every detail. I then answer questions with, “I sent you an email about that. Did you get it?”, which tends to decrease (although not eliminate) the micromanagement.

    17. Grack*

      I think she might benefit from a visual cue of how repeatitive this is. I’d create a master list, of all the details (posted somewhere in your work area, if possible.) Every time she asks about something, note the date of the conversation on the list.

      So the first time she worries about catering, you can have a conversation. The second time you can say “We revisited that on the 28th, after we finalized the amount, and decided nothing needs to be changed. Unless the number of attendees has changed since then, are you okay sticking with that decision?” Then you can redirect her attention to something she hasn’t covered. “I can see we haven’t discussed the balloons yet. Let’s put our attention there instead.”

      The third, fourth, and fifth time she brings it up, say “looks like we’ve had this conversation on the 28th, the 3rd, the 15th, and the 26th. Every time the conclusion was to stick to the original number. Should we focus on X instead?”

      Yes, this is heavy handed, yes, you are actively managing your manager, but you’re also showing that you’re organized, that those conversations aren’t forgotten, and even if she is worried about something have things sewed up tight.

      This also allows you to say at some point “I worry a lot of my time is being spent going over these details when in the end no changes are being made. I just want to be sure you’re okay that currently, I am getting a lot less of X thing done, when we’re coming up on an event.”

      1. Grack*

        I’ve done this both with students with failing grades “On the 13th, I did this intervention, on the 14th, I offered make up work, on the 15th, I offered tutoring, on the 16th, I left several messages on your phone” By the end the parents were LIVID at the student. Yes, the note taking was a pain, but I did the work anyway, I was just taking one more step to prove I’d done it.

        Also done this with calling about medical bills that aren’t being resolved. “I called on the 13th and spoke to Michelle who said X. I called again on the 25th and spoke to Ian who said X. It is still not resolved. Can I have your name?”

        Man, did that get results fast.

  4. Sunflower*

    I’m about 4 months into a new job at a company that is WFH friendly (I’m exempt and my job sometimes requires long hours FYI). Most teams WFH 2-3 times a week- the 2 people above me on my team WFH once a week usually. The WFH day varies and isn’t on a schedule. You do not need a reason to WFH. At OldJob, you generally gave a reason when you asked/told your manager. I’ve had to WFH a couple times for doctor’s appts and my boss has always said ‘as long as you’re available/online, I don’t care where you work from’

    This is (while welcome!) hard for me to get used to. My boss can be a stickler about other things so it feels somewhat disingenuous but I’m in the camp of ‘she said, it, I’m taking it at face value’. Is it fine to just say ‘I’m working from home’ instead of asking? Should I stop providing reasons why I need to? I want to set this as a norm and not feel like I’m asking for a big favor every time I do it. TY!

    1. Ali G*

      You could ease into it by sending your boss an email ahead of time:
      Hi Jane,
      Just a head’s up I plan to WFH next week on Tuesday and Wednesday. The schedule looks like this shouldn’t be a problem, so let me know if there is anything else I should consider.
      Thanks!
      Sunflower

    2. ThatGirl*

      If the norm is just to say “I’m working from home today!” then yes, it’s totally fine – you’ve been there long enough to know the norms by now. The only thing I would add is if you’re sending out an email, note the time(s) you may not be available, e.g. 2-3:30 for a dentist appointment or whatever.

    3. Wearing Many Hats*

      Perhaps you can say something like ‘I will be working from home on Tuesday, please let me know if this conflicts with anything.” I’m in a similar boat–good luck feeling more comfortable with this!

      1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

        This is the culture at my workplace. You have to arrange WFH at least a day in advance, but other than that nobody minds or needs a reason.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      If everyone is doing this, I would take your boss at their word. Just be sure to keep the work from home in line with the use of other people in the office (like a couple times a week), and be responsive when you’re doing it. It might help mentally to think about when and why *you* want to work at home – particular days, when you’ve feeling under the weather, after/on a particularly long day. And it wouldn’t hurt to check in with your boss after a few months to see if they’re okay with your frequency.

      As an aside – it’s so weird to see the open thread with less than 100 posts!

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      If it’s making you uncomfortable to just take it and not worry about it, you can just give your boss a heads up the day before you plan to WFH, then remind her again the morning of. But really, if your company culture is that people WFH often and don’t ask for permission, take it at face value and don’t ask for permission.

    6. Mbarr*

      I miss WFH, my new company/team doesn’t do it unless you have specific reasons.

      Old company let us WFH whenever we wanted (within reason). For us, the key was consistency. E.g. Only WFH on the same day(s) every week. We also updated our Skype status to point out that you were working from home so people could see at a glance where you are.

      1. Mama Bear*

        This. I set my Skype up to automatically show which network I was logged into, so they knew if I was at the client site, main office, or home. That way people knew immediately if I was on or offsite relative to their location.

        1. Chaordic One*

          This was very clever. Good for you! I don’t think that I’m allowed to do this on Skype at my workplace (permission issues), but still, a very good idea for the people who can do it.

    7. Jules the 3rd*

      At my employer, the norm is for people to have a fairly set schedule of wfh vs office days (the office is *dead* on Fridays). We don’t tell people if we’re wfh on our ‘normal’ days, we may let team mates / mgrs know if we’re wfh on ‘odd’ days. If you want to wfh regularly, I’d aim for the day most people wfh and just do a check with my mgr, like ‘I see the office is very quiet on Fridays. Do you see any concerns with me working from home regularly on Fridays?’

      And then on one other day/week, just letting them know. If you go more than one other day, then ask.

    8. Interplanet Janet*

      I’d address it head on. “Can I clarify something with you about the WFH policy? I thought I understood you to say that if I want to work from home, I just need to let you know what day(s) and then I’m free to do it. Is that right? How much notice do you typically expect? Should I provide a reason? This is a bit of a change for me from my last company, so I just want to make sure I’m doing what’s expected of me here.”

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Some good practices from the years I telecommuted:
      -We had two or three days telecommute depending on schedule, with the following restrictions:
      -Our department had one day a week when all of us were in for meetings.
      -Our department coordinated telecommute schedule so that there would be at least one person in-building between Monday 8am and Friday 4pm. (More if one of us would be in long meetings.)
      -We published our schedules as our Skype messages.
      -We were prepared to come in on a TC day if needed for meetings.
      -We set up our home desks in such a way that if videofeed was needed, our backgrounds were office-appropriate.
      What I’d suggest is that you ask your manager how long you should be on-site full-time for training before taking a day TC, and then do one day mid-week as a test to make sure you’re all set. (I say mid-week just for optics, so that no one thinks the “new kid” is extending a weekend.) Take your laptop home and log in as a test the night before that too.

      Good luck!

    10. Observer*

      Why do you feel like it’s disingenuous? Your boss asks for what she wants / needs and she’s made it clear that working from the office all the time is not something she needs. So, go for it.

      Just *tell* her, and make sure that you ARE on-line and available when you are supposed to be working. Go forth and WFH.

    11. Elizabeth West*

      I always read WFH as WTF. So in my head, it’s like “I get to WTF several times a week.”

      I don’t think you need to ask or give a reason if she’s already said she doesn’t care.

      1. Older & Wiser (Now)*

        I usually read it that way too, Elizabeth! In fact, I often WTF several times a day lol! :D

    12. OhBehave*

      Do others have set WFH days? Say, Tuesday/Thursday. If so, you could mirror those days or do alternate days (I loved working in a sparse office.). That way you can schedule appts on those days without checking. Your boss has already given their parameters for our WFH schedule. Go for it!

  5. BossLady*

    Any ideas for questions to ask in interviews when you are an internal candidate? I’m interviewing for a promotion in a neighboring team next week. We work really closely with them, so I’m pretty familiar with the position and most of the questions I’m finding on the internet make no sense. Or is it okay to just not ask any questions?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Maybe something like “what skills that I’m not using in my current position will be most useful in this one?”

      1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

        I love the question I picked up from this column: “What will I have to do to exceed your expectations?”

        1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

          I like that one and the other one I got from AAM: What would set a “good” employee apart from a “great” employee in this position?

        2. Tom & Johnny*

          I’ve asked a variation of that question before and have had good results with it: “What is something someone did in this position in the past that failed your expectations / was a pet peeve / didn’t work / wasn’t functional / was a disappointment?”

          Sometimes you can tell more about a person, and what’s important to them, by what they profess to hate (tardiness, rudeness to board members, poorly worded reports) than by what they profess to love (being a team player, submitting deliverable by deadline).

          Because what ticks them off is far more likely to be highly specific. Whereas the idea of what the job looks like when it’s a good fit is nebulous and glowy. It can get you very valuable information if you know how to extrapolate it.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I would say it’s never a great sign to ask NO question. It makes you seem like you’re not interested. It’s better to ask something like, “what would an exceptional performer in this role look like to you” or “based on the work I do now, what do you think will present the biggest challenge in making the switch” (don’t love that last one though, it’d be better if you brought the idea to them vs asking). Or, perhaps you can get really detailed with your insider knowledge – “how are these changes likely to affect our relationship with X big client,” “how are we working towards the strategic goals the ED just released” – or something?

      1. Grack*

        Or say “What has been the biggest challenge you’ve seen people face in the past when they move up in the company internally?”

        Sometimes there are habits or culture in the company that make an outside hire more attractive, or it’s hard to manage people you used to work with. Realizing that being promoted internally has it’s own downside seems mature to me.

    3. ThatGirl*

      How about “what do you think will be the biggest change?” or “is there anything I need to know about the role that might not be obvious?”

      1. Mellow*

        “is there anything I need to know about the role that might not be obvious?”

        That’s a great question for an interview! Thanks, ThatGirl.

    4. Wearing Many Hats*

      Perhaps something like, “How do you think workflow/culture/skillset are different in this department than in my current team?” Good luck!

    5. RandomU...*

      Adapt your questions to things that you already know.

      “So how do thing things will change for the paperclip sorting team knowing that the company has been talking about moving to binder clips”

      “What are the biggest challenges the team has faced with the introduction of the new sorting application”

      Things like that, show that you are thinking of how current conditions that you know about will affect the internal team, etc.

      1. gsa*

        I like that.

        To the OP, there have to be things you completely understand and some things you don’t. Be honest and ask questions, even if you’re not so sure about the question.

        gsa

    6. irene adler*

      My suggestion: ask your potential boss “how do you support your reports?”

      Now, you probably have observed how the supervisor manages her reports. Maybe they are the first to roll up their sleeves when the workload is overbearing. Or, they have an open door policy. But have you ever formally asked this boss about how they manage people? Might learn something about your potential boss from this response-even though you might know some things about their management style already.

      1. Keener*

        I’d ask what do they anticipate to be your greatest challenges in this new role. It can reveal some insight about how they view you and/or aspects of the role/team that you hadn’t considered.

        Good luck!

    7. designbot*

      “What is something about working in your team that you think other teams here might not understand?”

    8. NW Mossy*

      As an internal candidate, you’re much more able to ask questions about strategy and anticipated changes in the organization, so do that! This position is open for a reason – explore why, and ask questions about what changes the hiring manager anticipates in the role/team responsibilities.

      In this situation, you know the role as it’s been done, but that’s not necessarily the same thing as how the hiring manager wants it to be done in the future. Asking the question shows that you’re aware of that gap and want to understand it, which neutralizes one of the biggest pitfalls for internal candidates – thinking they know everything about the job before they’ve ever done it.

    9. JSPA*

      apropos the recent comment/thread elsewere, about temps and coworkers who had no clue what the department actually does: “when my current team works with yours, the aspects we’re most aware of are naturally X, X’ and Y. I know this job also entails A, B, and C, and that more broadly, your team is also involved in Z. I’d love to have a clearer vantage point of other team functions and projects that I might not be as aware of, and other groups and people you regularly work with, that are not as directly visible to [current team].” Not only does it prompt for helpful information, it lets them know that you’re willing to see the job and team from new eyes, regardless of what it looks like from outside.

      If you’re really intermeshed, this may not be relevant, in which case, asking about upcoming challenges is about all you’re going to be able to reasonably formulate.

      1. BossLady*

        I really like that! I definitely don’t want to assume I know everything about the role, I’m sure there is stuff they are doing that we don’t see from our side of the hall. Thanks!

    10. Steady Eddie*

      Can you give me any insight into how the new team is different from my current team? What are you looking for from a successful candidate in the first six months in this role?

    11. T. Boone Pickens*

      What’s driving the need for the opening?

      What are the key deliverables you’d be looking for this person to hit in the next 30/60/90 days? (or whatever appropriate timelines look like in your org).

      If your role includes any direct reports, ask them about the team makeup/culture.

    12. CG*

      What about something like, “I know a lot about how this position has worked in the recent past, but are there any things that you’re hoping to change/add/improve as new folks come on board?” (bulked up with more specifics based on your knowledge)?

      I know when I have interviewed for internal positions, most of my questions have been about (diplomatically) getting more information about either 1) areas where I genuinely still have questions about how the job works or 2) some of what I heard to be pitfalls of the job (like in an office where the manager is inconsistent between team leads about whether his team leads get autonomy or micromanaging, I asked him how he envisioned the responsibility, authority, and day-to-day leadership of the role – the answer was pretty telling and helped me decide whether I wanted the job or not).

    13. Spreadsheet Zen*

      “What are your short and long term goals for the position/team?” or “If you had the power to change anything at all, what would you change about this role/organization?”

      Those questions tend to be my go tos for internal interviews since I get a feel for the boss’s real desires and goals, how high level versus detailed they are (are these big but reasonable strategic goals versus nicer TPS reports), what frustrations they have, their attitudes towards frustrations, how their team operates, etc.

    14. Kiwiii*

      Always ask questions, even if just that some interviewers will take it as a gauge of disinterest if you don’t. Feel free to ask questions directly related to why you might be trading teams (more flexibility, more work with a certain system, more money?) OR ask what you can do to excel in the role. I asked an AAM question of “what separates those who are great in the role vs. good in the role?” and “I would want to be ahead of sticking points, is there anything others in this role have struggled with particularly during the training process or first few months?”

    15. Emilitron*

      Ask question about the differences between your team and theirs. “I’ve worked with your team members closely when I was doing X and they were doing Y for the Jones project, and I was struck by the fact that [Jane and John tended to work all aspects as a pair rather than separating out tasks for each of them]. Is that typical of the way you [allocate teamwork]?” You’re asking about management styles, communications styles, differences in culture, etc…
      I once worked with another manager’s group that I was at first kind of jealous of, they were much more interactive, more sociable, biweekly cookie hours, regular meetings about the status of the group, etc. as compared with my group that has a meeting once a year, and nobody but you and your group leader knows what you’re working on. Over time I realized that I preferred the more hands-off management style, and all that social engagement was just cookie-bribery to make up for their boss’s tendency to sudden intensive bursts of over-management. But it wasn’t until I’d had a couple of explicit conversations about group culture that I started realizing this.

    16. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’d ask about transition/overlap. My company has a history of promoting people without reassigning their previous responsibilities. If you have seen that happen at your company, ask how they want an internal transfer to handle requests from previous department.

  6. Branching out Versus Digging In*

    So after sticking it out for a year at my current job, I’m ready to get serious about applying for a new one (yes, I understand that even a year’s tenure is still short, but I’ve been kind of gritting my teeth the whole time I’ve been here: it’s very disorganized and chaotic).

    My problem is that I’m most marketable in my current field, since I have developed some niche skills that are probably harder to find in the genpop. However, I’m kinda … bored of the type of work I do? The very skills that probably make me most in demand?

    Should I resign myself to a longer and more difficult job search trying to make a switch to something new – when I’m REALLY read to leave – or should I risk digging myself even further into my niche where I’ll likely be rewarded financially and with better opportunities?

    I want to hear about other people’s experiences. This must happen to everybody, right?

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      I left my last job after only being there for 17 months (that was the loooongest 17 months of my life) because I was bored with little to no work to do and I actually started my official job hunt at a little over a year in. For the first month or so, I heard crickets – I’m in a field I don’t have much experience in (I was a career changer), so I was worried I was going to be stuck there for a while. Still, I persisted and started getting more calls for interviews. I was offered a new job within four months of seriously searching.

      I think if you are truly over what you’re doing, get very clear about what you want your next step to be. That will help you target the right positions during your job search. Understand that it may take a while to find something else (it took 8 months of job searching for me to find my last position after spending four years doing something drastically different), but keep trying – all you have to do is get one yes.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you have a history of short stints at places? Or are you usually around longer at your other positions, just this one has gotten tiresome quickly? If it’s your first 1 and done job or you have an otherwise steady job history of not flouncing around from job to job, you don’t need to worry about the job hopper label! Lots of people have that one or two jobs that they just didn’t want to stay at very long and got out 12-18 months in but otherwise show steady employment otherwise.

      1. Branching out Versus Digging In*

        I think I’m okay there. I also have some concrete, neutral reasons why it’s the right time for me to leave when I’m asked.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          That’s good news! So honestly, I think you should start looking now, outside of your industry and try to get out if you want to. It’s also one of those things you can really explain away as “I have realized with this last position, I want to change career directions.”

          I haven’t changed industries but I left my last job after 11 months [6 of which were utter chaos], it was the best decision ever. When your heart tells you to go, you should go. Use your brain to navigate the departure of course but listen to your heart at first =)

    3. Boop*

      I faced a similar situation about 2 years ago and I decided to stay in my field/niche. I didn’t find that type of work particularly exciting but I knew I was good at it, so I stuck with it. This led to better and more higher-paying roles in the field, and I am glad I made that decision. Then again, I am not the kind of person who needs to be passionate about their work. I just need to not dislike it and be able to do it well.

      1. Branching out Versus Digging In*

        I think I would have said this about myself also, until this job haha.

    4. Been there, still doing it.*

      I’ve been here. I’m in a super niche field and every so often I get very sick of it.

      When I have contemplated switching to something else, I considered does New Field pay as much as Current Field? What are the barriers to entry in the New Field? How many people are out there doing it? How competitive is the market in New Field (lots of jobs or few jobs)? Do I need more training? How would I find time / money for more training?

      And finally, would I really enjoy New Field or is this just a case of hunting for greener grass?

      Fortunately or unfortunately, I’ve never switched out of current field. (I have switched employers. Multiple times). My career still drives me bonkers, but at this point, I am senior staff / senior management and I’m paid to put up with bonkers.

      2. tesserae*

        Another good question to ask yourself is, “How can I leverage some aspect of Old Field into New Field?” Regardless of what the connection is, if you can see clearly for yourself how those skills/how that thing you really enjoy doing will translate into the new field/new company/new focus, you’ll be able to clearly articulate it for your interviewer in a way that will make sense. (Don’t be like the people who apply to this very niche job I’m trying to fill – think querying SQL databases and generating reports – by failing utterly to explain to me how your skill as a barista/PA to celebrities will transfer over. I’m glad you know how to dissect small mammals. I’m just not seeing how that applies here unless you tell me.)

    5. Dreamer*

      Do you think having this ‘Niche’ will put you where you want to be once you are promoted to a certain level?

      1. Branching out Versus Digging In*

        Hmm, maybe someday, but no guarantee I would actually reach that level. But good thing to think about, thanks.

    6. epi*

      Historically, I have not really been good at communicating why specific skills I have are really very transferable. Even ones like project management where it doesn’t really seem like you’d have to connect the dots for people.

      But I do have experience with switching fields to get away from a terrible job!

      Based on your question– and the follow-up comments I can see right now– I would actually suggest that you try finding a new, less-terrible job in your field while you think about switching. A bad work situation can really poison everything about the work, without your even realizing it. You may not be as done with the field as you think, especially since you previously thought you could stick with the actual work regardless of passion.

      If you successfully switch fields, you may someday have an advantage: an unusual and nice-to-have skill set from your old career, plus competence and experience in the new one. But to set yourself up for that, you will want to find the sweet spot: where are your current skills valuable and a bit unusual, yet complementary to the day to day work and not impossible to convey to employers? Oh, and where is all that true that you think you would enjoy the reality of working there: pay, schedule, people, location, employment options? It’s a lot to think about! And if your current company is dysfunctional, you probably are not getting great information about your options, just from what you observe through working.

      Do an “easy” job search now, for something you know how to do, and get into a role that isn’t crushing you. It may cure you of the desire to leave your field. If it doesn’t, it will give you a much more stable and healthy position from which to think about your next steps.

    7. JSPA*

      When I’ve made decisions while in an unhappy place (whether personally or professionally) I found myself more susceptible to magical thinking in many directions, to wit:

      1. I hate the field, not just the job, a job in another field would almost certainly be better! (No, you can find chaotic, unrewarding jobs in all fields.)

      2. If I loved the field, almost any specific irritation would pale, because if the overall pleasure of doing something I love! (Um, yeah, no. If that were the case, we’d never have to leave a hobby group or interest group, and all our personal relationships could be based on “we love the same field.” The specific details and personalities always matter.)

      3. This job sucks so bad, if I had another job in this field, all would be well! (Eh, maybe not–you could be burnt out in general, or not like the field, in general).

      4. It’s all about the people; if I love my coworkers, I can deal with any degree of boredom, and the creeping sense that what I’m doing might be counterproductive to the good of humanity. (No, actually, turns out I can’t do the first one well, and I can’t handle the second one at all.)

      If you have the opportunity, the safest way to make a good decision is probably to take a good long time in your search–and include, as a criterion, the opportunity to take a fairly significant chunk of time off between current job and next job.

      No reason you can’t search both for an “easy fit” and for “something completely different” (and anything else where, when you hear about it, you say, “that sounds like something I could do well.”)

      Then you can make your next choice based not on a conceptual plan, but on the actual offer. Very explicitly including pay (that is, don’t take what you can’t live on, because it might be a stepping stone to a dream; if they see a fit for your skills, they’ll pay you appropriately for them). And if it’s same field, you can hold out for more challenge, and comensurate pay. That way, if it turns out that the field bores you, even when you’re well-rested, dealing with different people, not facing more chaos than is intrinsic to the field, and facing interesting / substantive challenges–at least you’ll be getting paid enough to set aside a significant chunk of cash to see you though a planned career change. And you’ll be making the decision before you reach the point where magical thinking sets in (even if you don’t start the search immediately).

      1. Branching out Versus Digging In*

        Hoo boy, I really see some of myself here too. Thank you, I will have to sit with this and think about it.

      2. Petunia*

        Wow. This comment rang so true to me, my head is still buzzing. Thank you for this perspective.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Ask Yourself: Are you really bored with the work/career field or is it just the place you’re working at?
      If you hate the career you’re in, try to get some more transferrable skills before you jump and take your time with your job search. But if you generally like the career, it’ll be easier to go elsewhere and move up. And to be honest, you might get to see or experience other aspects of the field at better places of employment.

    9. Grack*

      Can’t you do both at the same time? Continue looking, but also commit to the fact that it might take another year to find a good fit, and in the meantime you want to continue building your resume and showing your track record as a good employee. Never leave without something lined up (unless it’s truly toxic in a way that is damaging your career or mental health)

  7. Not a Fed Apparently*

    Some disappointing news on the job front. I’ve been an institutional support contractor for a federal government agency for about 3 years. Meaning I am employed by a private company that holds a gov’t contract to provide staff to an agency. The office I support got some direct hiring authority, meaning they didn’t have to publicly post the job, they just networked to collect CVs and then handed the pile to HR and from there it proceeded like a normal hiring process. Since it wasn’t a posted job, there wasn’t a grade listing, but the job title is generally a Grade 11, 12, or 13 in this office. I interviewed in mid-June and got a tentative offer in early July. At a Grade 12/Step 1 with locality pay. Three of us on my team got the same offer. For me personally that represents a 33%/$41,000 pay cut and would take me back to what I was making in 2010 or 2011. So with the help of some amazing colleagues I put together my 4 page justification for a Grade 13/Step 9 ($10/month more than my current salary though I probably would have allowed myself to be talked into Grade 13/Step 8 which would have been about a $2.5k cut). In fact we all helped each other with our justifications. Last night we all got revised offers at Grade 12/Step 10. For my two colleagues who were more junior this is a good offer and does represent an increase over their current bases. But for me it is a 13%/$17,000 cut, and back to what I was making in maybe 2014. Other than my mortgage, I have no debt, but I just can’t accept that cut. It’s not just the money now, it’s the years and years of getting back to where I am now. I’m incredibly lucky that the opportunity to apply just sort of fell into my lap and my company has 5 years on their current contract so I have existing job stability. But I’m rather surprised at how devastated I am not to be able to take this job.

    1. Finally a Fed*

      Oh man, I am sympathizing with you on this so hard. I’m sorry. I have been through this two times under very similar circumstances and am looking at a third go around that will certainly result in a pay cut and returning to my agency at a lower grade than when I left. The difference between a GS 13/9 and GS 12/10 is $15-20K depending on locality, so totally understand not being able to take the GS 12 offer. Five years is a long time on your current contract – any chance competitive positions will open at a GS 13? Also, what are the opportunities for competing for hiring grade positions (GS 14/15)? One of the reasons I am open to going back at a lower grade than I left is that there are lots of opportunities to get promoted into a higher grade.

      1. Not a Fed Apparently*

        Honestly, I think there will be another direct hiring opportunity in the next year or so. This agency under pays people in my role compared to other federal agencies. It’s why there is massive turnover as people go to other agencies to get more money doing the same work (actually it’s less work because every other agency divides the role in two but my agency makes you take on both aspects). They are always short staffed which is why they require institutional support contracts like the one I’m on.

    2. De Minimis*

      Don’t forget the retirement benefits/pension in working for the Feds. I don’t know how close you are to retirement though–if you’re fairly far along in your career it’s less of a incentive.

      1. DCGirl*

        Yes. My husband took a pay cut when he went from contractor to federal employee because of the benefits. Having that kind of health insurance in retirement is a big plus for us.

      2. Not a Fed Apparently*

        I’ve run the numbers so there was some room to take a bit of a cut, but 13% is pretty huge. Plus I’ve heard some rumors that they want to increase the FERS contribution and get rid of the grandfathering. And because of where I am in my work life, I would have to basically commit the rest of my career to the feds to get full eligibility for the retirement benefits.

        1. De Minimis*

          Oh I hate to hear that about the grandfathering. I’m a former fed with two separate stints, and I’ve always been lucky that I was grandfathered from my initial service entry date which was back when the required contribution was super low. I’ve been considering trying to come back but having to contribute more towards FERS would make it less appealing.

      4. Former Retail Manager*

        Yes, this was what I came to say as well. There is also stability with being a fed that doesn’t come with most contract work. Not to mention the tax implications of employee vs. contractor.

        1. Not a Fed Apparently*

          Oh, I’m a full time, W-2 employee of my company so that’s not an issue. If I were younger, the retirement package might be more attractive because I would just have to put in my 20, and not necessarily in a row. But I’m at the point where I’m only going to work another 20-22 years so I wouldn’t be able to do anything else other than be a Fed. In which case, I’m not sure that it’s the right choice for me. I’m not necessarily worried about the work drying up. Institutional support contracts exist because the gov’t has done the calculus that it’s cheaper to go through contractors, even at “Beltway Bandit” prices rather than increase their labor line item.

          1. Finally a Fed*

            Is there a chance you want to take on more leadership roles at your agency that will be limited by being a contractor. When I was a support contractor, my employer (which was affiliated with a state organization) had better pay, medical, retirement, leave, etc. than the federal government. I could have (and would have) stayed as a contractor until retirement. However, it did become an issue when I took on roles that had more leadership tasks – e.g., leading teams, doing contract selections, etc., which meant I couldn’t ethically do the role as a contractor. Essentially, I maxed out my growth trajectory as a contractor. If you think this is a possibility for you, I would really start thinking about how to transition to fed even if there is a pay cut. That’s why I asked if competitive positions at higher grades come up routinely – either in your agency or ones that you’d be interested in moving to.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Once one becomes a fed, there is more ability to move to other federal jobs. Many jobs are advertised only within the hiring agency, or only to current federal employees, particularly jobs that require security clearances. A GS-12 is a very mobile grade should you wish to move to another position or agency, and you should be able to move to a GS-13 position after a year in grade. Moving beyond GS-13 varies by agency, as there are fewer positions and people tend to stay in them for a long time. Others have noted the stability of government employment and the good benefits. You may want to take all this into account before you reject the offer out of hand.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      Yeah, I couldn’t take a $17k paycut either even if I didn’t have all my debt – there’s no guarantee you’d get raises to get you back up to where you are now.

    5. SezU*

      It’s a tough one, but in a year you’d be eligible for the next level up. I took a lateral, no increase/no decrease, to become a fed. That was in 2012. In the last 7 years, I have moved to the top (next step is SES) and am making more than double that. So, to me, it was worth it. Can you get them to give you some credit years so you are earning more leave, at least (not even sure they can do that, except with military time).

      1. Not a Fed Apparently*

        I had actually included the request for the additional leave because I have been doing the government job for 3 years as a contractor (I have the .gov email address, the badge, the clearances, etc).

        1. Really Meh*

          I bet the Fed employess doing the same job working alongside you would feel cheated if they knew how much you made.

    6. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I’m sorry you didn’t get the offer you were hoping for after all that work to document and justify. Good for you though for standing firm on your salary requirements, and for recognizing that you are worth more.

    7. Long Time Fed*

      Federal contractors make far more than their federal counterparts and as mentioned up thread it’s because federal benefits make up a large part of the full compensation package for feds. The problem is that it’s easy to fill GS-12 jobs and there’s not much incentive for the government to agree to such a high starting salary for admin positions.

    8. ADHDAnon*

      Another thing to think about – when is the contract you work on up for recompete and will it be changing types. For example, if you’re salaried exempt there’s nothing to stop a new company from offering you less $ and fewer benefits, like less vacation, in the offer. If it’s changing types, like from cost plus to fixed price, that can have a big impact on work life.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      A $17,000 pay cut is a LOT of money. I know it would be devastating for me. How are your other options?
      I mean, a $17k cut is still better than unemployment in most cases, however horrible. If you did have to take it, would you be tied to a contract? Are there any other reasons to take (benefits, PTO) that make up for the lower income?

    10. Really Meh*

      I feel for you, but as a longtime Fed, this is why we railed against contracting out. It was almost never cheaper than hiring federal employees. That said, I’m lookig forward to being a contractor after I retire.

  8. Fortitude Jones*

    Has anyone here taken the APMP foundation level certification exam? If so, how was it and how hard/long should I study for this? TIA!

    1. Vimes*

      Hi! I took the APMP Foundation test last year and it’s not too terribly bad especially if you’re actively supporting proposals and have taken a Shipley or Shipley style training recently – in fact they have a training specifically for the APMP foundation test which you might want to check into if you haven’t already. What I did was refresh my memory of anything from training documents I had but I also took the the practice test they have online on the APMP test website several times including right before taking the real test to help my nerves and I wrote down any questions I missed multiple times on the practice test and reviewed and tried to memorize those in particular. I definitely didn’t have a problem passing in the time limit and I’m one of those people who are really bad at taking tests and can bomb them even when I knew all the material. I probably studied overall a couple hours spread over several days leading up to the test.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s good to know, thanks! Did you take your exam online, or did you do it somewhere in person (I see it’s an option to do a proctored exam)? If you did it online, did you have any connectivity issues? I’m so worried something may happen to my computer in the middle of the test and I won’t be able to do anything about it.

        1. Vimes*

          I did take it online and didn’t have any connectivity issues or technical issues the testing website is pretty bare bones and if I remember correctly they do say if something like that happens you can get with their help desk and reset the test. I did have a huge problem getting my payment processed on the credit card though because the testing company is out of Europe so you may want to call and give your credit card company a heads up! That stressed me out a lot when I was trying to take the test because that also screwed up my account registration because I’d gotten in the zone for the test then had to spend two days getting that sorted with my credit card company and then getting the account registered properly with their help desk.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Ah, okay. Thanks for the credit card tip! I had no idea their processing center was based out of Europe – my bank would most definitely put a hold on the funds, lol.

  9. RandomU...*

    There was some comments earlier in the week about people posting puns and things. I mentioned that I liked the idea as I was trying to lure my remote team to using MS Teams (recently introduced to my company).

    So 2 questions; what are the functions/things you use the most on MS Teams and Slack and the like the most; or suggestions for team channels/setups.

    and

    Any suggestions and resources for content that’s fun… pun of the day… joke of the day.. cartoons and things like that?

    1. Nott the Brave*

      No specific resources, but my team loves to use the inbuilt gif generator in Slack – type in /giphy and a word and it will give you a random gif on that topic. You can shuffle before you hit send and get a different one, so it isn’t a total lottery.

      1. AdminofSys*

        That’s one of the things we miss in teams, the gif options are really limited.
        But in general, the OneDrive and notes tie-ins make up for it, it’s very useful to just post the doc in the chat, instead of having to work having to pull it down and work on it locally or through Google.

    2. lemon*

      You can create an document in Slack and give permission to others to edit it, rather than always having to post a link to a shared Google doc. I thought this was common knowledge, but every time I’ve posted said document in a Slack channel, someone is always amazed and has never seen that feature before. So, thought I’d mention as a cool/useful feature.

      1. RandomU...*

        To get the team used to using it and some of the features I created a scavenger hunt.

        So things like:
        Post a file
        Add – specific text – to this wiki page
        Reply to a post
        Link a recipe
        Post about a function you learned about MS Teams
        Post a question about how to use something on Teams
        Answer a post about how to use something on Teams
        Schedule a meeting using Teams

        And other stuff. I think it helped… everyone did at least one thing on the list, which is pretty good participation for an optional ‘event’.

        I’m trying to push it’s use a little, without being pushy and obnoxious, IYKWIM.

    3. BelleMorte*

      We connect to our social media feeds, and have a to do list of sorts. The social media feed is nice since most computers are blocked from accessing social media sites.

    4. Eillah*

      Fun facts and quotes on Fridays!! I used to do that all the time on the hand written menu at the snack bar I worked at for many summers. Ah, memories….

      1. RandomU...*

        I did that today! I posted a Friday Funny on our team OT- non work channel :)

        In case you’re wondering it was a bad pun “Did you hear about the guy whose whole left side was cut off? He’s all right now.”

        That’s why I’m looking for other ideas… I tried inspirobot that someone mention, but I find them weird and not always work appropriate.

        1. Nessun*

          Our Teams now has a Water Cooler site which is strictly non-work postings. We’ve encouraged people to share photos of their pets (always popular) and since it’s summer, any gardening tips and pics (definitely enjoying that too).

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      We use the teams meeting function a ton because we have a couple remote team members and frequently some folks are working from home. It’s best with an external usb microphone if you have a few people gathered in a room around 1 computer, but it’s very useful. It’s integrated with our outlook, so you can just click a button in the outlook meeting invite to add the meeting to teams, then click on the meetings tab and join the meeting right from teams when the time comes. It gets used multiple times a day in my office, and it’s extremely helpful.

    6. Princess Tayla*

      We have a pet channel where people can post all of the adorable photos of their pets. It’s a nice break to be able to go there and look at cute dogs and cats and iguanas as a little work break.

    7. Marion Ravenwood*

      When I had MS Teams in my last job, the things we used it for most were sharing review copies of documents for teams working on major projects (I managed the annual report, so had a channel on Teams that cut across a lot of different departments, and used it to share drafts, timelines etc), an alternative to Skype for meetings, and an internal email replacement, especially for quick questions.

    8. LKW*

      We just switched to teams and my favorite feature is that during meetings with shared desktop or applicaiton I can magnify shared content without having to ask the presenter.

    9. cmcinnyc*

      Just for a contrary perspective, this stuff is why I DON’T use our Teams channel much. It’s always full of nonsense. When I’m in a work convo and someone posts a gif or mentions they won’t be in tomorrow because they’re getting a dog (and then posts a pic), that’s great! But constantly getting pinged for junk got really tedious, really fast. I tend to turn it off and then someone will ask “Did you see the document I posted to Teams?” Uh, no. Sorry. Then I have to turn it back on.

      1. auburn*

        agreed. Stuff like this should be in a random/time killer channel that has separate alerts from actual work. I don’t know how teams works but on slack I only have alerts turned on for channels we use to do actual work. The random/time killer stuff I just look at when I’m sitting around waiting for a call to start or something. I like it and think it’s good for building camaraderie since we have a disbursed team. But it’s annoying if it’s mixed in with actual work. It should have it’s own place so people can check it only when they feel like it,

    10. 867-5309*

      I work for a company that builds a meeting management solution on top of Office 365. We find our customers who use it have higher adoption rates for Teams because there is a practical business reason for it. I would look for something like that to make it part of “how business is done.”

    11. sacados*

      My company uses Slack a lot — I’m still getting used to it, but one thing I’ve noticed that seems nice is that aside from the various project and team-focused channels, there is a #random channel (for, you guessed it, whatever randomness people want to talk about) as well as a separate channel for sharing news/articles about our industry. Those both get a lot of traffic and help keep the truly work focused stuff separate and on-topic.

    12. DaniCalifornia*

      GIFs, it’s nice to see the activity channel and it’s easier to contact all in a group. Skype for Business is going away anyways so we made our office switch over. We have an all office channel, and then an admin channel which is nice when you just need to message a few people.

  10. Eillah*

    Are there any regularly updated online spaces for career admins to swap stories/tips/techniques/etc?

    If no, career admins, roll call hayyyyy!

    I had to reformat a document to make it look nicer, which is not a skill in my admittedly varied wheelhouse, which is why I asked :)

    2. Nessun*

      The only one I’m aware of is the forum on the IAAP website, but that is members only (of which I am one). I’d be interested if there are non-member sites like this!

    4. Ginger Baker*

      Maybe this should be my prompt to finally start the blog I keep talking about! (I can’t be the *only* one that wants to talk about their favorite Word macros and which weird tasks they use excel to data-clean for, can I??)

    5. NothingIsLittle*

      Haha, I went to college for publishing, so I took a design class. It’s been one of my most-used skills since I started admining! The other major one is copy-editing. Gotta make sure all the external emails are perfect.

    6. JediSquirrel*

      I would certainly be happy to create one. (Web developer is one of my many hats.)

      Please let me know.

    8. FinePrint*

      I’ve set up an in-house MS Team for exactly this to keep our EA team connected and to motivate our informal catch-ups.

      I don’t know of a collaborative online space however I have (annual fee paying) membership of http://www.executiveassistant.com which has a chat room; and I follow several places such as http://www.practicallyperfectpa.com, http://www.legalofficeguru.com (though not legal) and http://www.allthingsadmin.com. I love all this stuff and get excited by collaborating with my admin colleagues and Sharing What We Know.

  11. Margaret Schlegel*

    Good morning and thank you Alison for everything!! I would love advice about an upsetting situation.

    How can I best support a family business during a family crisis?

    I work for a three-person law firm: two attorneys, Martin and Joan, and me, their paralegal/manager. Martin is Joan’s father. We have a high-volume, high-intensity practice that’s become unbelievably busy in the last six months. Recently, Martin’s wife and daughter-in-law were helping part-time with the expectation that we’d hire another paralegal in the next few months. I’m the only non-family employee they’ve had in years.

    Last weekend, they learned that their 2-year-old granddaughter/niece has a terminal illness. Her prognosis is dismal and it’s likely a matter of months.

    I’ve cleared the calendar and pushed out our deadlines and I’m holding things together as best I can. Obviously, they’re both overwhelmed and devastated and taking things a day at a time.

    Martin says he’s coming back to the office on Monday; Joan has attended a few necessary hearings this week but neither of them have been capable of much analytical thought (their words). I’ve scheduled a few appointments for Monday because Martin said he doesn’t want a total break in the practice, but I let the clients know that we might have to reschedule.

    I hired my friend to help temporarily with admin work since neither of the family members who had been helping will be coming back. I’m coping with the work (while taking multiple breaks every day to cry) but I can’t sustain this amount of overtime for long.

    I know Martin and Joan will need a lot of flexibility over the next few months. I want to respect them when they say they can do work right now but I know we’re going to leave a few things undone and have some unhappy clients.

    I was wondering if anyone has been through a similar situation, from their side or mine, and what helped you get through it or what you wish had gone differently.

    (also, I’m not interested in a discussion of the downsides of a small or family business. Martin and Joan are mentors and role models to me professionally and personally. I love my job and I love them and their family immensely and I’m focused on doing whatever it takes to support them.)

    Thank you all – I’ve learned so much over the years from AAM and Alison and this community and I’m grateful for any advice you can provide.

      1. tallteapot*

        There are paralegal temps, as well as attorney temp firms, especially in good-sized markets. You may want to broach the topic with Martin, as that will give them the chance to keep the trains running, at the bare minimum. If either it’s a smaller market without attorney temps nearby, possibly reaching out to other local firms to arrange for some coverage/assistance, etc.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          This sounds like it might be a great thing to mention or ask about! It’s definitely worth bringing up with Martin and Joan.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      Can you get permission/have the ability to hire a new paralegal or admin yourself? That would help with the short term non-lawyer part of the business. You can’t handle everything yourself for months at a time, and a steady employee would be more stable than various stopgaps.

      In the short term, you can handle the communication part – explaining what’s going on to clients, for example, so they don’t have that added stress.

      For the longer term stuff, I’m not sure how much you can do. They’re reeling from shock right now, but they may get back to work fairly quickly, if at reduced capacity. But if they’re distracted and unable to work for months, the business simply might not be able to survive – they’re the only lawyers, they bring in the money, and you can’t do their part of the job. I don’t know if it would be possible to hire a lawyer for six months, say, to handle some of their cases, but that’s not really something you can do.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Before law school I briefly worked as a paralegal for a lawyer with a substance abuse problem. Very similar office deal to yours: two lawyers (who were siblings), and myself and one other paralegal. By the time I left, we had angry judges chambers calling, had to write uncomfortable letters to opposing counsel requesting deadline extensions for reasons we couldn’t give, and wondered if our next paychecks would bounce. If I could do it again:

      – Secure your own lifeboat. If they are “going to leave a few things undone and have some unhappy clients,” then prepare for the worst: some kind of malpractice situation like a blown statute of limitations that makes them have to lay you off. How are your savings? How long a period can you manage unemployed?

      – Secure your own lifeboat. Maybe Martin will decide that he’s in a financial position to suspend or even fold the practice and spend time with his granddaughter. Then he’ll decide to never come back. How prepared are you for that?

      – Dissuade Martin and Joan from taking on any new cases at this time. Try to get them to refer everything out. The more they take on, the more they may leave undone.

      – Hang in there! “The buck stops here” for lawyers. As you know, if you make a mistake, it’s on them because they are your supervisors. If they’re overloading you, that’s on them, too. Don’t hesitate to tell them that you’re getting too much, and you don’t want to risk dropping a ball (which would be their problem in the end, not yours).

      Good luck!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This is what I was thinking — either an agency temp, or a retired lawyer they know personally. An outside contractor who isn’t on the emotional roller-coaster could help a lot if/when things get stressful.

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      Schedule a meeting with yourself and Martin on Monday. You need to get specifics on how he wants things to go in the next months. I’d prepare a list of things you need to keep things together and any talking points you want to touch on. You can present this kindly and with a collaborative spirit, and if you come prepared, it’s less thought your boss has to put into it when he is understandably fried.

      Something along the lines of – “I want to make the next months as easy as possible for you and Joan while supporting the practice and our clients as much as I can. Here’s some of the steps I’ve taken, and where I need a little guidance from you to get your time as free as possible. I’ve temporarily hired another admin, but I think we need at least one more for X hours a week. I can’t do what was accomplished by 3 people without something key slipping through the cracks that would reflect poorly on the practice and I want to prevent that at all costs.” Etc Etc down the list. As Glomarization, Esq. mentioned, you can ask if they’re planning to take on new cases, and express any concerns or support of whatever answer he gives (depending on what he says).

      I know it feels like this is the last thing that they’ll want to be thinking about and it feels awkward, but a half hour or hour of conversation, that you’ve already done the leg work on so he doesn’t have to prep for, will likely get you what you need and make both him and Joan feel better about the state of the practice while they’re understandably distracted.

    6. WellRed*

      having never worked in law, I’ll let others answer that aspect. If you are crying several times a day, it might help with work overall, if you could work on that piece of it. Whether its through self-care or setting aside ONE crying break or a couple of therapy appts or a journal or whatever makes sense. You crying helps no one–not you, not the biz and most importantly not the family.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I have an ill family member right now whose prognosis is very much up in the air, so I speak from experience when I say you cannot plan your crying breaks, and you cannot tell your brain “we’ve already had our one allotted crying session today.” You will cry when you cry, and that’s really normal for a situation when people you care about are hurting and afraid.

        But take care of yourself as best you can, OP. And get your people to help take care of you. If you’ve got friends or family you can talk with while you process this, or who can take you out for dinner and a movie to get your mind off it for a little while?

        Pop back in and let us know how you’re doing with this in future open threads. We want you to be okay.

    7. Hi there*

      I have a somewhat similar situation in my office that I have been thinking about writing in about. In my case the other two people (my supervisees) are out on medical leave. I veer between panic about how I will get three people’s work done before the semester starts and serious worry about them. It sounds like you are having similar swings.

      I agree with the advice around prioritizing, etc. and just plodding through the work you can do. But you also need to give yourself space to handle the emotional parts of the situation so those don’t overrun every day. I don’t know what that looks like for you. For me it is running and giving myself all the Starbucks iced coffee breaks I want. I am also trying to see friends/colleagues a bit more since working alone is not something I enjoy and something that just reminds me of the situation. Hope this helps!

    8. JSPA*

      Set a timeline. Ideally, wait a week, if you can hold it together that long. Some people grieve (or, anticipation-grieve) by burrying themselves in their work (especially if they think of it as being “for the good of society” work).

      There will be all sorts of practical issues. It may end up making more sense for Martin to hire someone extra to help at home, and for him to put in time-and-a-half at work, while his wife does family support; or she may be the one who suddenly finds a need to lose herself in someone else’s case / someone else’s problems.

      It’s really hard to predict based on what you think you’d do in their shoes. (Actually, it’s just as hard to predict for yourself.)

      Given the family business set-up, and you being personally close with them…

      1. An open ended “how can I help” is never wrong.

      2. “I’ve looked up some highly-rated paralegal temp services, and also housecleaning and cooking services, and also nursing support services, in case engaging any or all of them can take some of the burden off of you” is a bit gal-Friday, but in this situation, might be warranted.

      3. I’ve seen lawyers offload clients to other trusted, qualified lawyers when faced with their own serious diagnosis, or that of their spouse. (Caveat: it’s less common to do so for child/niece. And in fact, having seen lawyers work well into their own terminal diagnosis–or through their spouse’s–best not to presume.) That said, if you have some newer, less complex clients whose cases could reasonably be treated as less pressing, it’s not always wrong for a lawyer to ask if they’d be willing to transfer to a different law firm that can give them the full attention they deserve. It’s often better to send them on a mutually-agreed trajectory to some other safe berth, than drop the ball on their case. You can build back from a contraction. You can’t build back from an implosion. Making a list of such cases, and having that list and the suggestion ready, may help to normalize the idea for them.

    9. Clementine*

      I wonder if Martin and Joan could come to an arrangement that one of them will handle family issues, and one of them will do legal work. They could hand stuff off to each other, and switch places, but always have a situation where one of them is fully on duty, and the other is clear for family responsibilities. That way neither has to feel guilty about neglecting the other aspect. Of course it will mean that they have to cut their total workload in half.

    10. LALAs*

      Does your state bar association have an assistance program? In Massachusetts, it is called Lawyers Concerned for Lawyers. It helps attorneys but also law students, paralegals, and legal assistants. They can give advice on a wide range of issues – how to keep the practice afloat, how to find a therapist, etc.

    11. Margaret Schlegel*

      Thank you all!
      I’ll plan to ask if I can check out a legal temp agency on Monday. I’m glad folks agree that encouraging them to refer as much out as possible is a reasonable response to this situation.
      I hate to consider the possibility that I’ll have to find other work, but I will get things on my end in order just in case.
      I’m trying to take care of myself – I’ve found a therapist for the short term and I’m eating again and trying to exercise – but it’s going to be a long road.
      The good news is that the child has come home from the hospital temporarily and I was able to see her. She’s in great spirits and surrounded by family, and whatever time she has is going to be full of love and fun.
      Thank you to everyone for your advice.

  12. Puppy SOS*

    I have an ethical dilemma at work that I am not sure how to handle.

    I work for a nonprofit and we are hosting a gala this fall. It is our biggest event and moneymaker of the year. We have a committee that consists of about a dozen members who are tasked with selling tickets/tables and collecting items and donations for our auction. Staff is in charge of all the event logistics, details and execution.

    Our committee and staff met this week to discuss how things are going and the committee brought up the idea of auctioning off a puppy. I’m an animal lover and worked with animals all throughout college, and I am horrified at the thought of doing this. Our Executive Director tried to push back on the idea, however the committee basically overruled her and claimed they will do things the right way. For ex: They want to use a puppy from a rescue, provide a year of vet care, all the necessities for a new pet such as a kennel, food, toys, etc.

    While I feel these provisions help, I still feel very uncomfortable with this whole process. A pet is typically a 10-15 year commitment and I know people sometimes get caught up in the excitement of an auction and bid on things without thinking them through. I also know (from working with an animal organization in the past) that animals that are bought on a whim are often dumped at shelters within a couple months.

    I tried helping our ED by doing research on ordinances in our city to see if auctioning off a live animal is prohibited, and unfortunately it is not. We are currently gathering news articles that show this could be a PR nightmare if any animal-rights groups or humane societies get wind of this event and want to challenge it. Unfortunately, I don’t know if this will help, and the committee for the gala also contains board members and they have the final say in this matter.

    If the committee proceeds with auctioning off a puppy, I am the individual who will be responsible in gathering all the items and coordinating with the rescue. Since I feel so strongly about this I really want to have nothing to do with the entire transaction. Can anyone advise me on how to speak to my boss about this? I don’t want to be difficult but I feel very strongly about this and don’t want to compromise my own morals or integrity by participating in auctioning off this puppy.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Oh my goodness, absolutely not! How horrifying! I don’t have a lot of advice, mostly commiseration, but I hold out hope that no rescue will ever agree to this. I know the one I adopted from wouldn’t.

      1. Wearing Many Hats*

        Yes, I agree with AvonLady Barksdale! I think you’ll have a hard time ‘procuring’ a puppy from a reputable shelter. Perhaps call a few to confirm and present these finding to the board?

        1. AnonAnalyst*

          Agreed. I’ve adopted a couple of rescued dogs over the years and each time the group has required information about me and, in some cases, a home visit, before they’d approve me to adopt one of the animals in their care. I’d be shocked if you were able to find a legitimate rescue group that would let you auction off one of their animals. Perhaps confirming that’s the case in your area and informing the board that no one will let you auction off a rescued puppy will put a stop to this idea.

        2. JSPA*

          Exactly this. Also, point out that if you pick the pet, the agency would still have to approve the adopter; and that if the pet of your choice were to bite someone, or kill another pet…eh, there are all sorts of reasons to have people select their own “best match” of a pet, not bid on the pet-of-the-day.

          In addition, though it might be thin ice (as fertility/family/adoption stuff is always fraught) but you could bring up the historical example of people who used to bid on (or purchase the right to adopt) orphans (many of them not actually orphans, but rather kids from poor families or runaways) from the “orphan trains.” The wikipedia entry on the orphan trains is surprisingly upbeat overall (“the root of the foster care movement”) but history has cast a jaundiced eye on the abuses, and also on the “slave auction” atmosphere as people picked up the child they’d ordered or bid on the spares.

          Perhaps you can suggest that instead of an actual individual living animal, they auction off an “adoption package” that will combine the cost of a future adoption (pending standard approval from the adopting agency) plus (say) a plush toy and/or a thank-you tchotchke or T-shirt from the Humane Society, a coupon to a local pet store, vet insurance, etc. Something that would be of value even if a family already had a pet, and didn’t want to adopt, or wanted to adopt a different pet. If you have pictures of “some of the kittens and puppies and cats and dogs now at the shelter,” you ought to get more interest, not less.

            1. Julia Pancakes*

              Adoption package! What a smart idea, JSPA. I never would have thought of that. Do this!!! Maybe they would be willing to have a few representatives from the shelter there, maybe with a few dogs JUST for meet and greet? But I don’t know if that would seem too much like those are the dogs being (ugh yuck) auctioned off, or if it would make people more interested.

          3. JSPA*

            To clarify, as someone seems to have found this troubling (though the comment may be gone, now)

            I think I flagged–hard–the point that child abuse/neglect vs animal abuse/neglect are problems of vastly different degree and magnitude, which however have one important point of similarity.

            But in case not…to clarify…

            Stipulate: The (well documented, horrific) child abuse and neglect suffered by too many children who were (e.g.) transported to Australia, or put on the early orphan trains, or generally shipped to any willing taker/bidder in the days before fostering included pre-screening or oversight–were a human rights violation of the first order. (Many other children were happily settled in loving homes. Which…is not prevented by screening.)

            Stipulate: The level of pre-checking and oversight reasonable for a dog is vastly different than the level that’s appropriate in human adoption.

            Argument: there’s nevertheless a point of commonality in that “no questions asked beyond, ‘can you pay’” is problematic in both cases, and for many of the same reasons.

            Two things don’t have to be “the same” for one to shed light on the other. If the original statement reads in some other way, for some readers, I’m sorry for causing pain.

            If, on the other hand, you think that only people can suffer, or that only children can be abused, we may not have a basis for mutual understanding.

            If you are sure that the history of parceling out children didn’t have some very bleak moments and bad mis-steps, google will handily supply copies of the primary sources, and you can do your own research on the topic, if curious.

            I’m pretty sure we’re all on the same side of not wanting to shuttle anyone or anything defenseless into a life of abject misery, while balancing that against the efficiency of getting as many beings in need of homes, into homes.

    2. ThatGirl*

      How about instead, a donation to a shelter that could be used toward a puppy?

      One of many problems with this is that one specific dog is not gonna fit in everyone’s household – even if you are completely up for adopting a dog, temperaments and sizes vary, for starters. I feel like most reputable shelters wouldn’t even go for this! I would probably talk to your boss from that angle – “it’s a huge commitment and I doubt a shelter would want to match a puppy with a household without an application, visit, research, etc”… would that help?

      1. Amtelope*

        Yes, I would try to set this up as “you’re bidding on puppy supplies + a year of vet care, and you can either donate them to this great rescue to help cute puppies, or contact the rescue if you’re interested in adopting a cute puppy yourself.” The rescue might even be willing to bring some cute puppies to show off. But no rescue is going to let you auction a dog.

        1. Alice*

          I love this idea. And maybe its close enough to the original off-the-wall one that the committee will go for it.
          But what kind of ED can’t/won’t overrule a committee that is doing stupid things?

        2. EddieSherbert*

          This is a great idea! I work in a rescue and we definitely have brought dogs or cats to events (usually with the expectation we’re getting donations or publicity or people will apply to adopt).

        4. Jill March*

          Puppy SOS: if you are in charge of it, you could probably just execute it this way and the committee that approved it wouldn’t notice that it wasn’t exactly what they asked for. If they do notice and say something, tell this was the only way the shelter would let you do it. (Which might even be the case.)

      2. Mimi Me*

        Yes, Perhaps a voucher that people can bid on that would cover the cost of application fees and the adoption itself. I adopted a kitten that required an application, a home visit, and an interview with my family. It was quite extensive. I don’t see many reputable shelters agreeing to just handing an animal over without at least a cursory review of the potential owner.

        2. Lilysparrow*

          Yes, this sounds like a much saner idea. The “Pick Your Pet” package includes the adoption fee, vet care, crate & supplies, and so forth…

          A shelter might even want to use this partnership as a promotion of their own.

          You can put lots of adorable photos of puppies (and kitties, too).

          I think you’d probably get better bidding with that kind of flexibility. The bidder could use it at their convenience, or as a gift, so they could take the gift recipient to choose the pet.

    3. Adlib*

      I can’t imagine any rescue being okay with this. It sounds like it hasn’t been brought up to the rescue that your org wants to use. I would be shocked if they went along with it so that may be your out right there. Maybe have the shelter explain as experts in the field that this is a TERRIBLE idea to your organization.

      I hear you on your concerns – as a fellow animal lover and rescue advocate, I’m horrified to be honest.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        This is a great point — rescues require applications and vetting before they adopt out. You might be able to get the rescue itself to squash it as soon as you explain.

        1. Puppy SOS*

          This was my thought too. However – one of our committee members works for a catering and event planning organization that hosts many high class events in our city. This committee member is already connected to a rescue that has auctioned puppies at previous events. I’m fairly new to the city so I’m not all that familiar with the rescue, but it appears this particular group is fine with auctioning off their puppies. :(

          3. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Wow. In that case, I’d seriously considering contacting some animal protection groups and seeing if they’ll get in touch with your employer with a strong admonition not to do this (try HSUS, PETA, and others; I know PETA will do that sort of letter). Also, are there coworkers who agree with you? This is something where I’d push back strongly as a group. And maybe consider some pressure against the rescue group itself, which might have an effect.

            You do not need to out yourself to your employer as the person who’s organizing the push-back.

          5. EddieSherbert*

            That… seems extremely sketchy and also how on earth is there enough of a market for that to already have connections for “puppy auctions”?! Very curious about this rescue group O-o

            Note: In my are,a there’s a local pet store chain has an “adoption area”… but the dogs are from breeders known to be less-than-great. You have to dig 3 layers into their website to find that information and there’s no law saying they can’t call it adoption/adopting/etc. I literally know people who have bought dogs there thinking they were rescuing because they purposefully keep it all vague and use the shelter “lingo.”

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              Our local PetSmart has adoption events through a reputable local rescue*. They do bring animals in from elsewhere — but they still start as shelter rescues. Just shelter rescues in regions that have a lower rate of spay&neuter.
              *the one where my co-worker adopted her last 2 dogs.

              1. Short & Sweet*

                Yes, PetSmart does have adoption events – my most recent dog came from one – but I still needed to fill out an an application, provide references, and have a home visit (not to mention write a pretty hefty check!). In that case, the pups came from a kill-shelter in KY to MA.

              2. EddieSherbert*

                Not adoption events with local rescues (like Petsmart and Petco do) – those are great!

                I’m specifically talking about where they have lots cages with puppies in them and the puppies live there until they’re bought. This is more like what you’d see with Petland’s (but I’ thinking of a local 3 store chain in my area specifically).

          6. JSPA*

            That’s…gross. You can still go with the practical argument, “different people value different things in a pet / we’ll have more interest if the exact choice of pet is left open.” And the legal risk, if someone’s bitten, has a massive allergy attack, the cost from the venue for dog pee on the carpet, etc.

            To be fair, a lot of pet stores have adoptable pets from shelters. I’m never entirely sure how much vetting goes on at the store, if you adopt from the store. And presumably the agency chooses the most “chill” puppy possible, so it’s not torture for the pup to be at the event, and so that the event isn’t a total fiasco. (That, or eventually someone gets bitten, and they wish they’d listened to you.)

            As for letters: PETA is not seen as a mainstream animal-welfare group in much of the country. If you’re someplace where farm animals are raised for meat, and there’s any way to trace that your brought a PETA protest down on your company, you can probably expect to be unemployed, unemployable, a social pariah, and possibly have your car keyed or egged.

            There are places where land is cheap, houses and farmsteads sort of mingle in the exurbs, adding another random dog to the household is taken as a matter of course, and the idea that you have to match a particular dog to a particular family is seen as a bit of a precious affectation. If you’re someplace like that, you may not find a lot of support, and have to decide how individually problematic it is for you to be in the middle of the process. Maybe focus on talking up some great alternative, rather than talking down the (really bad! I agree it’s bad!) plan. But in context, It’s less than 100 years since they stopped doing this with children, in the US. (The orphan trains ran from 1850 to 1929, and if it had not been for the depression, who knows how long they’d have continued.)

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Having worked at PETA, I can guarantee you they’re not going to protest this company for doing this. But they will send a letter explaining why it’s a bad idea for the animal.

              1. JSPA*

                They’ve become more thoughtful of their overall image than then they were in the 80’s (and I hope my posts above indicate that we’re overall on the same side of this issue?). But memories are long, and it feels like there’s been a fair bit of work done to keep any past excesses raw in the public memory, and to elaborate on them, and to conflate them with ALF and ELF.

                I’m afraid that there are still areas where the golem of PETA’s earlier reputation precedes and looms over their current, well-considered actions. That is, there’s a fair chance in some areas that any letter of disapprobation from PETA would be seen as an implied threat, even if they are not sent with that intent.

                As with all things, you can’t control history, nor can you control the experiences of your recipient, nor the past messaging they’ve absorbed. But you may be able to get ahead of those factors by figuring out what they are, and how they change the way the message will land.

                As the poster recently moved from one region to another, it would be helpful to get a fix on the local reputation of PETA, before (or concurrent with) alerting PETA to send a letter.

                1. Jill March*

                  Since the original comment said below that this shelter has done this before, maybe have PETA send the letter to the shelter? It would help preserve anonymity, since anyone from a previous auction could have done this. It may not be as effective for the immediate situation, but it should probably be done either way.

            2. TL -*

              Yeah, I grew up on a ranch and most of our dogs were random strays that were left at our rental properties or picked up off the street to “get them better and give to the shelter” (the latter never happened.

              We weren’t really concerned about fit – dogs that needed time to run or space from the other dog(s) or wanted to nap all day could all find what they needed on their own. The only concern we had was size, as small dogs weren’t likely to be seen by the livestock – but even then we had an 11-lb Chihuahua mix that was quite happy and never got close enough to the cows to be hurt.

        2. Murphy*

          Definitely this. I used to work at a rescue and we’d never adopt out to someone who didn’t meet the adoption criteria, even if adoption is free that weekend or it’s clear the shelters or whatever.

        3. Venus*

          Agreed: I foster puppies (and kittens) for various rescues, and with every single one it is *all* about finding the right match for the right family. I currently have a puppy who is ideal for a very active family, and anyone who doesn’t want to run 2+ hours a day will be miserable with her. She is loved and desired by everyone we meet, because she is such a well-behaved and adorable little thing, but very few people would actually want to live with her. Similarly, each kitten has a personality and some people want a more relaxed cat while others are keen for an extrovert.

          No reputable rescue will participate in this suggestion. If they do find a rescue who is at all interested then I would question their ethics.

          A few options:
          A raffle for those items (free vet care for a year and supplies like food), for people who already have a pet (I have seen auctions where vet services are offered and they do very well)

          A puppy- or kitten-social. Rescues will often arrange for animals to go to a location, such as a pet store or occasionally a yoga studio, in order to raise awareness (and they usually have baking and knitting for sale if it’s a public event). Perhaps it could be arranged that the winner gets a few hours of cuddles with a litter of kittens or puppies from a local rescue? The rescue could go to their home, or workplace, or wherever the person wishes?

        4. University Minion*

          I’ve lived in places where property seized as evidence had to, by law, be auctioned off. This included dogs from a puppy mill bust. What the animal shelter did was to hold the auction, but the high bidder won the right to be first in line to put in an application, and only once it was approved, could they get the dog for the amount they bid. If that application was denied, it rolled down to the next bidder until a suitable home was determined.
          That made the best of the situation, but I agree that live pet animal auctions are not a great idea.

        5. tyrannosaurus vet*

          Shelter manager here! The thinking on this is changing in our industry. Rather than coming from a place of “Prove to me that you are worthy,” we are moving to a much more inclusive view that if you’re coming to adopt you’re already a good person who knows far more about your ability to care for an animal than we are. More info here https://www.aspcapro.org/research/pets-gifts-0 and here https://www.aspcapro.org/blog/2014/05/27/go-ahead-try-it-open-adoptions :)

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Hmmm, that is counter to everything I was taught working in animal protection for years (although I recognize you also work in animal protection and have far more recent knowledge than I do). But I’d be concerned about the statistical significance of a study based on only 222 people! I’d continue to be very concerned, given how many people abandon animals when they become “inconvenient.”

            1. tyrannosaurus vet*

              I know, I’ve been in animal welfare for almost 20 years and everything I “knew” when I started has been turned on its head. For years we have taken in every animal that came to us and made it very difficult to adopt – and then wondered why we ran out of space and had to euthanize healthy pets. Now we’re practicing intake diversion and open adoptions and looking for ways to increase flow-through. And we’re saving lives! I love it, it’s such an exciting time and so rewarding to see our progress!

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Ha, that is a very positive and diplomatic response to my skeptical comment :)

                But I’d definitely be interested in a statistically significant study if there are any!

              2. anonagain*

                I hear you on the barriers to adoption, tyrannosaurus vet. I’m a volunteer at an old-school rescue and I’m not convinced that our current approach is better than a more progressive process with more support for people after the adoption. I would love to be able to test that out, but we don’t have good data. (I’ve tried to analyze it, because I am a little obsessed with these things.)

                That said, I am still opposed to auctioning off a puppy. I know that animals are legally property, but I don’t regard them that way. For me, auctioning off a living being with its own thoughts and feelings is deeply unethical, whatever the reason and whatever the outcome.

                But those are my own beliefs, which most people (even really great ones!) do not share. As a practical matter, at every charity auction I’ve been to, everything gets bid on. It is hard for me to imagine someone holding up a puppy at a charity auction and a whole room full of people just sitting silently. On the flip side, it is easy for me to imagine a room full of people who all already have the number of dogs they want.

                That mismatch makes this different in my mind even from someone getting a dog as a gift or impulsively getting themselves a dog. I don’t think people go to galas in order to get a dog, and still they could end up feeling a lot of pressure to bid.

                I’m in favor of increasing adoptions by removing ineffective selection criteria, etc., not by adding pressure on people to take animals they don’t want.

            2. carrots and celery*

              There’s been enough articles in the past five or so years about how adoption practices are absurd. I, for one, welcome rescues being more inclusive and less stringent about adoption because it’s incredibly hard to adopt a dog from rescues these days unless you pass their 100 ridiculous requirements.

              1. Susque-hanna*

                I gave up trying to adopt a rescue dog after I was presented with a “contract” that gave the rescue group the right to enter my home without warning at any time, day or night, for ten years AND demanded that I get the rescue group’s consent in the event I want to move. (Both of these provisions are almost certainly unenforceable but that’s beside the point.) The group refused to remove these points. I gave up and went to a reputable breeder.

          2. EddieSherbert*

            We’re definitely changing our approach as well to make it easier to adopt (no home visits, no requiring fenced in yards, no checking vet records for vaccines), but we still put *some* time and effort into finding the right fit for the family and for the animal. Like…. if the dog being auctioned off hates cats, we should probably make sure the family doesn’t have cats.

            So I personally still wouldn’t be comfortable with an auction where I hand off a random dog to a random person afterwards, even with some of the changes we’re seeing in rescue “rules” :)

            1. tyrannosaurus vet*

              Why don’t you just tell them that the dog hates cats and let them make their own decision? Even if they don’t have one now there’s nothing stopping them from getting one in the future.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                Because it’s in the best interests of the cat not to be in a home with a dog who may terrorize, injure, or kill her! And because this is a situation primed for the dog being returned after they realize “oh, he really doesn’t like cats.” And because people are frequently enough terrible at making responsible decisions like this that the whoever is currently responsible for the animal should make the final call.

          3. Belle8bete*

            I am glad to hear that shelters are starting to realize they shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. I personally have adopted my animals from small rescue groups that were easy to work with. I wasn’t going to come in and jump through a bunch of hoops to get my cats. I’m not saying toss kittens to randos, but some groups have lost the plot.

      2. Willow*

        Yes, rescues and shelters generally have strict application processes before they’ll hand over a pet. I can’t see them waiving that–and if they do, they are not going to be an organization you’d want to be associated with.

    4. RandomU...*

      So, I’d spend capital on this. I’d tell the committee team that if they go forward with this, I’d be contacting PETA, the news outlets, and local rescue groups myself. (which btw would likely be the outcome if you did it or not they’d catch wind of it and there would be fallout). Ask them how they will deal with the protests and the bad press.

      If you’d like and they don’t back off of this idea… I’d create a burner twitter account and do it anyway… then I’d bring in the ‘evidence’ and say “OMG someone leaked this, I just saw this on twitter”

    5. HailRobonia*

      How about auctioning off the rest of the stuff without the puppy… a year of vet care, supplies, etc. would be a great gift for someone planning to adopt a dog… or someone who already has one.

      1. Bluebell*

        I was about to say something similar to this- auction off puppy supplies, a gift card for food, training services, and maybe an hour of counseling from a well regarded dog rescue org in your area. That would get good publicity for the dog rescue (or shelter) , and the bidder could use it on their own timeline. You could still use a whole bunch of puppy photos and the rescue or shelter could potentially bring a few doggy ambassadors to the event. My dog rescue always has them at our gala. They wear bow ties and it’s a huge hit.

    6. WellRed*

      Is your boss the ineffective ED? If so, you could try to decline based on your feelings about this, but your boss seems to be pretty powerless.

    7. BelleMorte*

      I totally agree, my eyebrow went into my hairline when I read this.

      If you absolutely cannot get them to change their mind, can you damage control at least? Perhaps auction off the pet care package instead of the puppy itself? i.e. the year of vet care/insurance, the kennel, toys, a voucher/gift certificate for food for a year etc. perhaps include enough to handle the fees or a voucher for adopting a puppy, without saying “hey here’s a puppy pre-selected!” that may or may not suit your family.

      I doubt any reputable rescue would be willing to give you a puppy pre-selected without vetting the adoptee’s family honestly.

    8. MusicWithRocksInIt*

      Maybe while coordinating with the rescue, you could tell them what the puppy will be used for and let them know your concerns. See if you can’t get them to refuse to give you one. Maybe with a statement about how they don’t want the bad PR. Outside opinion may open their eyes.

    9. mf*

      Your ED seems supportive in you pushing back against this idea, so that’s a good sign. Can you talk to him/her to see if there’s someone else who can manage this process in the event that the committee moves forward with the idea? You can even use the script you posted here: “I don’t want to be difficult but I feel very strongly about this and don’t want to compromise my own morals or integrity by participating in auctioning off this puppy.”

      (Also, thank you for pushing back and trying to do the right thing!)

    10. Joielle*

      What if you made it more like a “new puppy gift basket”? So like, a gift certificate/voucher to get a dog from the rescue, a voucher for a year of vet care, and then include some cute dog stuff like bowls, leash and collar, toys, and maybe a gift certificate to a pet store so the person can get other stuff they need. It would still be exciting and a cute idea but would give people the chance to think it through after the adrenaline of the auction and pick out a dog that would work for them – maybe they want an older dog, or one that’s small/big/active/quiet/good with kids/whatever. There’s so much variation in dog breeds – you’d hate to pick one out and then people not bid on it because they’d rather have a different type of dog. Plus WAY easier logistically than having a live dog at the auction.

    11. Ali G*

      You will have a hard time getting any reputable rescue on board with this. Why don’t you suggest that instead of auctioning off a live puppy, you show pics of all the available dogs (or cats!) at the local rescue and give a adoption certificate (basically pre-pay for it) to the person that “wins.” That way they can go pick out their own pet, and if they never do it, free money to the shelter!

    12. Tigger*

      OMG NO. Please don’t do this! This is just so wrong! If they really want to keep the puppy as a draw to help a shelter I know a lot of rescues will let you sponsor a dog to help lower adoption fees

    13. Tuppence*

      It might be worth leaning on the PR angle – you’re a nonprofit, so supporters are generally likely to be (or consider themselves to be) ethical people. If any animal rights organisations got hold of it the negative PR implications are potentially serious, not to mention time-consuming and generally distracting to supporters – does the board really want to be fighting a reputational issue in the wake of this gala? Also there’s a strong likelihood that no shelter is going to want to open themselves up to that kind of negative PR, so the idea may not get off the ground anyway.

    14. KR*

      I am SHOCKED. WOW. Could you guys auction off a sponsorship of a shelter puppo instead of the dog itself? The sponsorship could include updates from the shelter and/or a spot on a sponsor wall & perhaps a waived adoption fee pending approval of the application? That way the final say is with the shelter whether the dog actually goes to the person and the person still gets something out of it.

    15. an alternative to your situation?*

      Can you perhaps auction off finances to go towards a puppy…. for example work with Animal Society ABC; let ABC do the vetting and their normal proceedures, and your non profit will help with the initial costs. Or perhaps you can say we will buy puppy supplies, toy and a bed for the first month your puppy is home. Or you will pay for the first three months of vaccines. Or you will pay for one year of puppy grooming.

      Something where your not-for-profit company can help with someone who is considering getting a puppy but not having the puppy be the actual auction. Maybe ABC can bring some of the dogs to the event – a win win – ABC may get more people to help/ home more puppies and your company is not in a PR nightmare.

    16. Moray*

      Maybe the rescue group and committee could be convinced to do the year of care + toys thing and then something like “a personalized tour and special meet ‘n greet withall the puppies at the shelter.”

      That would still make the auction-winner feel like a special, puppy-winning A-lister, without just handing over a dog. And they could still bring an especially cute puppy to the auction as, like, a demo-puppy, just not plan to hand it over.

    17. Christine*

      I don’t have advice on what you should say to your boss, unfortunately. I just had to comment and say that I’ve been to a fundraiser for an organization before where a puppy was auctioned off, and it ended up going pretty well. The puppy ended up bringing in more money than any other auction item, and the person who “won” the puppy donated the puppy back to the organization. One of the members of the organization owns the puppy to this day, which became a mascot for the organization. Shelter pup got a new home, the highest bidder was able to make a contribution to the organization without committing to owning the puppy, organization had a mascot everyone loved, person who owns the puppy has a beloved companion.

      I understand that it’s not ideal, If you have to move forward with the puppy, I hope it goes well. I have gotten many dogs impulsively because of emotion and excitement, and taken care of then no less than a new dog that was planned to come into my home. Unfortunately, unsuitable people adopt dogs everyday that they do not remain committed to, but just because someone gets their puppy at an auction, does not mean they will be a bad dog owner. Maybe that puppy can still have a great life.

    18. benny c*

      Where are they going to even get a puppy? Are local shelters even going to have any available? In my (limited) experience they get snapped up pretty darn quick. So are you going to have to buy one from some rando off Craigslist? Or go further afield and spend time & effort sourcing them from a whole other state? Especially for a cute-looking dog that would be more popular at an auction!

      I’m just not seeing how this is going to make much money. I mean I don’t know what your auction crowd is looking like, but I’m expecting the cost of lining up a puppy is going to climb into the $300+ range pretty quick. (You have no moral incentive to drive that number down, either).

    19. Animal worker*

      Wow, I’m horrified by this like everyone else, and would personally spend political capital on it if needed, but know that this isn’t always possible for everyone’s circumstance. I love the suggestions below about focusing on a puppy gift basket that includes a shelter donation that could cover adoption fees if the winner wanted to adopt an animal. Another option would be an animal ‘adoption’ at a local zoo with a gift basket of zoo stuff that usually comes with the adoption fees.

    20. Puppy SOS*

      Hi all, I just wanted to post and say thanks to everyone for the feedback. I’m glad to know I’m not alone in finding this horrifying.

      I commented earlier, but want to mention our committee is already connected with a rescue that is willing to do this. I don’t know anything about the rescue or how reputable it is. It’s probably not a great group considering it has auctioned off dogs before. I will definitely find out who the group is and see if I can find out more about them.

      I will say I live in a city that seems to be pretty behind in the times when it comes to animal welfare. There is a lot of animal dumping and tons of stray dogs in the poorer areas of town. This has been hard for me because I come from a city where people care a lot about animals. While there are animals lovers here, it seems that the majority of the people in my area do not put in as much effort.

      I love the ideas of auctioning off a sponsorship for a rescue or a sponsorship + the pet care package instead. I feel these are great alternatives and will bring them up to my ED to pass on to the committee.

      My ED is a wonderful person, however there is currently a power struggle between the ED and our Board of Directors. She tries her best but is very limited because the board pushes back on a lot of her directives, and at the end of the day she reports to them. This is a whole different topic and issue for another day, though.

      Thank you again for everyone who has commented and provided their advice!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Good luck; that is so frustrating!

        I think you could also research this group and verify if they’re a reputable rescue (I mentioned above, but most of the shelter “lingo” is completely legal for anyone to use and I know at least one store that works with breeders but use “adoption” terminology to mislead people). If the ‘rescue’ part was important/appealing, that could put a stop to it.

        I also think you should be able to let them at least tell them this bothers you and you do NOT want to organize this on their behalf. You may not be able to refuse if it’s part of your job, but you can still try to get out of it.

      2. Gidget*

        The fact they have auctioned animals before is a pretty scary thought. It is entirely likely this rescue has other violations which may indicate it is less than legitimate. If you can find out more information about the rescue, i.e. showing they frequently have violations, then you can show that it is a rescue you do not want your organization to be affiliated with which may help. I think you should also highlight your concern that if this gets out on social media your organization would very likely get spammed by humane activists and it would create a very bad PR environment for your org.

        I am so sorry you are in this situation. I hope it works out.

        1. JSPA*

          Seems that the boss is on the rescue board, or something like that, so this will not work…I’d be tempted to find out of the rescue is a listed charity, and try to find out where the money goes. Some are, as people have mentioned, basically fronts or dumping grounds for unscrupulous puppy mills. If they’re getting donations, doing adoptions at a profit, and paying for puppies (or taking the purebred puppies that are “defective” by breed standards), that might be of interest to an investigative journalist (or the IRS).

      3. Need Some Coffee*

        I wonder if this is a gala I have been to and supported as a volunteer. The one I am thinking if is a world-wide major non-profit, and every year at a gala they do a puppy auction. Now, from what I heard behind the scenes, they basically always pre-coordinated who was “winning” the puppy somehow, so it wasn’t a totally spontaneous thing. It surprised me when I saw it happen live, but apparently everyone agrees it’s a key tradition for the event. So, not sure if there are two of these organizations out there or we are talking the same group.

        1. JSPA*

          That…sounds like another, entirely different layer of illegal. Fixed auctions? Riiiight. Just because you’re working towards a mutually excellent outcome, does not mean you can do shady things along the way to get there.

      4. Another JD*

        Your boss and the rescue are on board with the plan, so all you can do is mitigate. Instead of bringing one puppy, have the shelter bring several for a visit (because the whole point of the puppy being there in person is people become irrational over small cute things and open their wallets). Have it BE KNOWN that no one is going home with said puppies, but the winner’s puppy of choice will be held by the shelter for X days to be claimed, pending the home check or whatever else they normally do. The shelter gets an adoption event, and you get money for your organization.

      5. Samwise*

        I’m so very sorry. You’ve been put in a terrible position.

        If you cannot stop the puppy auction, then you will have to figure out if you can tell your boss that you cannot be involved in this part of the event and she will have to find someone else to do that part of the planning. Understanding that it may cost you your job. Sometimes we have to pay a high cost to act according to our values.

    21. EddieSherbert*

      Well, there’s a decent chance they won’t be able to find a rescue or shelter that will agree to that – which might stop it from happening. All those groups have adoption applications for a reason.

    22. Career Tech Teacher*

      Board of Directors for an animal rescue. DON’T do it. We’ve had NFPs reach out to us to do this and even say “well they would have to go through your usual vetting process” and we still say no every time. A local private school did it with a breeder and they were skewered in the larger community. Just don’t do it. Please comment back and if you want email to reach out to me directly, I’ll post one in my gravatar. I’ve been on the other side of being asked a few times and our rescue says no every time.

    23. Gidget*

      Yikes. This is a terrible idea. I am certain any legitimate rescue will not provide a puppy for an auction. A couple people here have mentioned making it an auction for supplies and a year of vet care and I think that is a much better alternative to provide. It is much more responsible and still a pretty great auction idea.
      This would also probably appeal to more of your guests because pre-existing pet owners would be interested, whereas in the other case you would probably only have naive-not-actually-ready-to-adopt-a-puppy bidders.

    24. Mazzy*

      Oh no, I’m not easily offended but this disgusts me. There is nothing to discuss here, this is just a big “NO”

      1. b*

        Such a bad idea. I would worry that this “rescue organization ” is actually a puppy mill . Dogs from puppy mills around here often come with falsified health papers and lots of congenital issues. Bad publicity for your nfp if the word gets out that you auctioned off a “defective” puppy. I love real rescue organizations and would be sad if they got tarred with that same brush.

    26. Llellayena*

      First, check with the local animal shelter to see if they would even allow this. You can imply on the call that you’re not thrilled and ask if they have better ideas for similar results. If the NO comes from them, this could stop the idea in its tracks.
      Second, I’d be writing an essay length document about ‘why this is not a good idea,’ sign it and hand it to the ED so you’re on record as not agreeing.
      Third, I’d see if there’s some way to modify this to be ethical. Maybe the auction is either a dog and year’s supplies OR donation of those things to someone else who wants to adopt a dog? Have an adoption station and auction off only the years supply of dog equipment? Have the adoption station and have the dogs present other (small) items that are auctioned off with part of the proceeds going to the shelter. There’s probably ways to keep the spirit of the idea and improve the ethics.

    27. tyrannosaurus vet*

      I am a senior manager at a large, very old, very well respected shelter and we auctioned off a puppy at our gala a few months ago! It was advertised that we would be live-auctioning one puppy, which brought in about $4K, and then we brought out a second surprise puppy and that one brought about $5K.

      People who bid on and win are well off, probably have pets already, and are usually well known to our board and major donors. Both of those pups went to millionaires and they now live better lives than I do.

      (Of course, this was a gala for an animal shelter, so attendees were animal people. I don’t know about a non-animal nonprofit.)

      1. JSPA*

        You’re lucky that we don’t out people or their organizations here, as I’m thinking this is enough information to do so.

        I would feel really, really good never donating to the organization, and warning my friends not to do so, either.

        Pet auctions may be OK in the location where you did it, but if you’re large and national, I’m pretty sure the backlash from all the places where this reads as “entirely horrifying” would undo all the good (?) work that your fundraising arm has no doubt spent a lot of money effort time and tears, to do. More than that $9K.

        1. WellRed*

          Genuinely curious what your concerns are in this case? What is the ‘horrifying” aspect if you know the bidders, etc and have them vetted beforehand?

          1. JSPA*

            I can tell you why it shocks and upsets me, with no guarantee any of it will resonate with you. People are different.

            1. People being rich and donating to animal causes is not the same as being vetted.

            2. Being vetted is ideally whether you are able to care for a specific animal, not a random animal.

            3. Money and “we support the shelter” aside–as it should be–this is exactly the same scenario that has so many people horrified, higher up in this thread. If it’s horrifying when a third party does it, it’s also horrifying when the shelter does it.

            4. I also posted a link to an article about shelters paying big money to breeders for prime “auction” dogs in a way that really violates the entire concept of nonprofit rescue (not to mention, violating trust, and possibly violating IRS regulations). It’s not through moderation yet (links take a while).

            5. My stomach made that “yuck” sensation before I teased out any of the intellectual reasons, above; that by itself is enough of a reason for me to say, “that’s disgusting.” Feelings exist; explanations follow.

            If this isn’t a problem for you–if your stomach doesn’t twist–I’m not going to tell you that it should, and I’m not going to tell you that you should not donate. Me? I feel nearly as queasy as I would if i heard that really rich people with nice houses could buy kids for adoption at auction, and everybody clapped. People really are different about this stuff. (I’d paradoxically feel slightly better if they were going by lottery to someone with a farm, without a lot of money. But then, I’ve seen how some rich people treat their kids–let’s just say I would not wish the worst of that on any animal.)

            And I’m not even a “my pets are my babies” person. I have cats, I love them dearly, they gaze into my eyes, I scoop their poop, I cry bitter tears if one dies…and I never once lose sight of the fact that they are no more and no less than cats.

          2. Gaia*

            They auctioned off a live animal. Literally anyone could have come in and bid on that animal with no checks at all to make sure they were not going to harm the animal or put it in risk. That is deplorable that a shelter would do something. They KNOW the risks of putting animals in the hands of just anyone. This is why there are some barriers to adoption (and while there is a strong case to be made that some shelters and rescues have gone off the deep end in their restrictions, I’ve never heard a single good argument for having literally NO vetting at all)

            I am an avid supporter of my local shelter and if I ever found out they auctioned off a dog I would not only never support them again – I would do everything I could to make the public understand how deplorable this behavior is – and how it is the very opposite of what their mission states.

              1. JSPA*

                Livestock have value. That’s a strong incentive for some level of adequate care.
                Livestock handling has more regulations than the care and feeding (or not) of a pet.
                You have to have your act at least somewhat together to take possession and shipment of livestock, unlike a puppy which can come home in your car.
                If they’re being bought for meat, their lives are already limited; whether you’re pro- or anti-meat, chances are high that the animal will not be abused for a decade or more.

                That said, in many places, people do get banned from owning livestock if they’ve been prosecuted for animal cruelty, and I would not be surprised if they were shown the door if they walk into the auction house. Links to follow, because I’m still laid up with nothing better to do.

        2. tyrannosaurus vet*

          We’re not national, so we’re not the org you’re thinking of. They do good work though, so feel free to continue donating to them (assuming you have been). It certainly wasn’t a secret so there’s no “outing” to be done. In our case, there was no chance that whoever won the auction wouldn’t provide a good home. Our fundraising team and board were all happy with the decision. You’re right, $9K is just a drop in the bucket. But it’s big drop and a huge bucket. One of the reasons we’re so well respected is that we’re not afraid to do things differently but no one doubts that we have the best interests of our community’s animals in mind.

          1. JSPA*

            If they were all pre-vetted, I suppose you could know that. But hold on–you checked them all for other, incompatible pets? Lead paint, in that stately mansion? Kids below a certain age? Or did you make some of the following easy but questionable assumptions:

            That an expensive home is a safe home?
            That a rich family is a kind family?
            That paragons of the comunity are never abusive (to family members or pets)?
            That rich people who support shelters can’t be addicts nor animal hoarders?
            That “people I know socially” and “People who might do bad things” are two completely non-intersecting circles in a Venn diagram?
            That if there’s love + money, adequate ability to care for a pet will automatically follow?

            You’ve seen Grey Gardens? (And they were kindly; not all rich people who donate to animal causes are.)

            1. MissBliss*

              Valid points aside… I have never once had a shelter inquire about lead paint in the home. That does not strike me as something that is regularly checked for, at least not by any of the half dozen rescues I’ve adopted from.

              1. JSPA*

                I’ve been asked (but then, I’m in a neighborhood of pre-1900 houses in a humid climate). It’s not like they come and check, but they did ask about peeling paint, and if there was, whether it’d been tested.

            2. tyrannosaurus vet*

              Of course there are bad people everywhere. But assuming we are able to make better decisions about a person’s ability to care for a pet than they are themselves makes no sense at all.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                People regularly neglect and harm pets. They regularly abandon them. Surely you believe there should be some screening to ensure animals are going to safe and responsible homes?

                This is like saying that people can make better decisions about their ability to parent children than an adoption agency can, so we won’t screen prospective adoptive parents of kids either. Screening makes sense. Handing animals over to whoever asks for them, possibly on a whim, possibly with ill intent, is not in the interests of those animals.

                Having seen some of the results of cruelty from pet owners, hearing this from someone who says they work at a shelter is appalling to me.

                1. Argh!*

                  Rescues & city shelters have “Do Not Adopt” (DNA) lists, and breed rescues usually screen for vet recommendations, landlord permission & groomer recommendation. I have volunteered for several, and I could tell you a bunch of stories of animals I’ve personally nursed back to health after neglect from “loving” owners. There are also cases of “free” dogs from craigslist or other sources being “flipped.” The owner thinks they are good judges of character, and then the dog goes to a known flipper who charges $250 or more for it.

                  And then auctions that are public are a total nightmare – people bid to make themselves look good. It’s just a bad, bad, bad idea.

              2. Cranky Neighbot*

                Shelters, rescues and breeders typically vet prospective pet owners. Deciding whether someone ought to own a pet is both totally normal and typically beneficial to the animal. People can make some really serious errors in judgment when they, for example, want to give their kid a puppy for Christmas. These mistakes lead to neglected, abused, and abandoned animals.

              3. Belle8bete*

                I don’t think you sound nuts, Tyrannosaurus Vet. I bet your shelter is doing the best it can, and I think there are a lot of knee jerk reactions here (which happens with animals).

    28. ...*

      I truly don’t think any upstanding shelter would ever give a puppy to be auctioned off so that might solve your problem right there.

      1. ...*

        Didn’t read enough above apparently shelters auction puppies in some areas. I stand corrected.

    29. Seeking Second Childhood*

      The rescue agencies may nix this on their own because they often have to pre-approve adopters. How about this: make it an adoption *voucher* instead, and include a year’s pet health insurance.
      The rescue might be willing to host an hour’s “meet & greet” like they do for adoption events at pet-supply stories. (Heck, if they spin it right they might place more than one pet that way!)
      You can point out that this way someone could give the adoption voucher to a family member who won’t be in attendance. AND there’s always the chance that someone is allergic to dogs and would use the adoption voucher towards a cat or farm animal or…
      Good for you for caring.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        And I should have refreshed my screen because wow there were a lot of comments since I signed on earlier.

    30. anonagain*

      OP, I am so sorry you are in this situation. I have no idea what your board is thinking. I hope you are able to find a way to resolve this and they don’t end up going forward with auctioning off a puppy. (!!!)

      I don’t really understand what the fixation on this idea is anyway. It seems really strange. The puppy basket is a way better idea. And what about something like a pet portrait or a cuddle clone? I don’t know anything about organizing charity auctions, but that seems way more typical. Even something like pet supplies or services, just not the pets themselves.

    31. Been There*

      Don’t.do.this. This used to be done by nonprofits in our city. Total.PR.nightmare. People’s perceptions have changed over the years. Don’t.do.this. And I work for a nonprofit!

    32. Argh!*

      If you are the responsible one, you can reach out to rescues and float the idea. Chances are that they will refuse to cooperate. If this is something that will be done no matter what, you can ask the board to stipulate that the rescue has to approve the adoption via its normal route. If the rescue doesn’t approve, you should still get the money, because it’s really a donation.

      We had something like that shut down here recently, and then the city adopted an ordinance against it. The public & the rescue community will be on your side on this.

  13. halfwolf*

    If this is helpful to anyone else, I’ve come up with a way to kind of trick myself into writing cover letters that are personalized to a particular position and wanted to share. I copy a cover letter that I recently wrote for a position similar to the one I need to write a new letter for and paste it into a new document, saved with the new position title. Then I go through the new job listing and the old cover letter line by line, revising it to be more specific to the current listing. I change examples and phrasing to more closely match the priorities of the current listing, delete irrelevant examples, and add new ones until, ship of Theseus style, I have a totally new cover letter that is really tailored to what I’m applying for that day. I’ve always found it hard to start something while looking at a blank white page (plus it is always easier to revise than to write from scratch), so even though I’m still writing something that’s 100% new and specific to a given position, it feels way less daunting.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      It’s funny because I know every single job opportunity (basically, every situation where there’s a power unbalance – I also see this from literary agents, potential mentors etc) wants a very, very customized application. They don’t want to feel like you’re applying to any old thing, they want to feel that you’re only interested in THEM, that you really are passionate about their specific thing. This makes sense and all, but when you need a job, you probably are sending out a lot of applications – sorry. And since you don’t get a lot of courtesy in return (I feel like most cover letters go unread entirely if they don’t like the looks of your resume – and no response sent whatsover) it’s hard to motivate yourself to keep customizing a lot.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Which is to say, I appreciate that your comment is practical and addresses both perspectives!

        1. halfwolf*

          thanks! and i completely agree; i’ve written a lot of cover letters that i’m REALLY proud of and gotten almost no response. i’m applying for jobs in a pretty competitive industry, so it comes with the territory, but it still sucks. this has definitely helped me achieve some semblance of balance when it can feel like i may as well have written my beautiful cover letter out on a piece of paper and then set it on fire for all the good it does me (i know that’s not really true, but it sure feels like it sometimes!).

          1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

            I am seconding this. It feels so discouraging to write cover letters that are amazing, for a job I’m actually passionate about and then just….nothing.

          2. Elizabeth West*

            Same on doing all the work for a great cover and *crickets*. I do something similar to what you do.
            It does end up being a bit boilerplate, since most of the jobs I’m applying to are exactly alike. Sometimes it’s hard to find a thing that stands out.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              Forgot to add: before I switched computers, I had several macros set up for the canned stuff. Now that I reloaded Word, I have to do them over. But it’s okay, since they’ll probably be better this time around. :)

    2. Anon Today*

      Yes, I do this too! I also keep a file of paragraphs that I can slip in for similar listings. It really helps me feel like I’m customizing things. I’m also in a very small, very competitive, very specialized field, so I kinda know what the “keywords” people want to see are.

      1. Ra94*

        Yep, I have a bank of stock paragraphs about things I’ve done, organized by skill: communication, attention to detail, organization, writing, editing, languages, etc. I’ll tweak them each time to make them fit the listing, and edit them for tone and flow so they work together, but I’m not starting from scratch every time. I also use that list to prepare for interviews, so that I know “what I’ve done”, so to speak.

    3. anonymoushiker*

      I’ve been struggling with the same thing! I’ve taken to creating a document of paragraphs for cover letters that are about a skill/work style. (e.g. time management, data management/quality, data analysis, people management, etc). It’s not perfect and after writing one or two I think I’ll need to finesse the flow from paragraph to paragraph but it takes the emotional labor of staring at a blank document and freaking out.

    4. AnOtterMouse*

      Another helpful tip…. paste the old letter in bold or italics, replace with regular font. This will prevent you from accidentally sending an email to Teapots Inc. that describe how much you’ll love to work at Tea Kettles Unlimited!

      1. Venus*

        I do this, except I use a different colour (that option works better for me). I use this in many different situations, as I sometimes write a few pages for work and I will take someone else’s format and add my own content.

    5. Some clever pun*

      Thank you for this! I’m the same; when I’m looking at a blank white page I just can’t picture having written something. This strategy is great for overcoming that.

      1. halfwolf*

        glad it’s helpful! the silliest part for me is … i’m a lifelong writer. and yet this still happens all the time!

    6. Marion Ravenwood*

      I am currently in the thick of applying for new jobs, so this (combined with Alison’s advice on cover letters) is massively helpful. Thank you halfwolf!

      1. Anonym*

        Yes, seconded! You are so kind to share! Perfect timing, as I’ve just shifted gears from “find listing, do research, take notes, I’m a great fit for this, excite excite” to “time to write the cover letter, this is hopeless, all is lost, they will never hire me, I wouldn’t fit in anyway, sad defeat”. Time to take a break, then come back to this.

        Thank you!

        1. halfwolf*

          very glad to be helpful to you both! as i mentioned upthread, i’m actually a lifelong writer, but cover letters make me want to break out in hives. before discovering AAM mine were truly terrible (i still have them on my computer and can’t even bring myself to just delete them), and while they’re now much better, writing them, especially from scratch, is still like pulling teeth. that’s why i phrased this as a way to “trick” myself into doing it.

    8. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I do something like this all the time, but I should probably go the extra step and start a file with paragraphs for all the different skills. Since I’m pretty much constantly applying for very similar jobs it makes no sense to try to start from scratch every time. In my field most employers use the “person specification” document, which lists all the essential and desirable criteria you must have in order to be shortlisted. They are often the same or very similar from job to job, so I am constantly copying and pasting from old applications, then tweaking.

      It still takes me days to write a cover letter or statement, though.

  14. L.S. Cooper*

    Does anyone have advice for finishing up a sentence quickly?
    I am very prone to rambling, and I don’t think it helps me. I can tell when I’m doing it, and it’s usually because I don’t have an exit point, which means I wind up rambling a little bit longer as I desperately try to find a place to end my thought. This is not great, and, of course, I do it more when I’m nervous, like, say, during an interview.
    I would really like to stop doing this, but I’m not sure how. Help?

    1. Anon Today*

      I do the same thing! For interviews, I’ve learned to tap my toes in my shoes (where they can’t be seen) and I tap out about each second I spend talking. If I feel like I’ve tapped too long, I wrap up my sentence. I know it sounds weird, but it works for me! My other trick is to practice, practice, practice interview questions until I have a concise answer I can give to most things.

      In meetings, I often write down the point I want to make, wait ten seconds to see if anyone else will make it and then bring it up. The act of writing really makes me slow down. I hope this helps!

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I do this most when I haven’t thought about what I’m going to say before I start talking. I am a big one for “talking through my idea out loud” and I’ve had to completely shut this down in the work place. I have practiced saying, “interesting, let me think a moment” BEFORE I start talking. It sounds basic, but it helped me, a former rambler.

    3. fposte*

      I like ripcord phrases. “But let’s move on.” “Eh, I’ll end it there.” “Actually, we don’t need to get into that.” “But what do *you* think?” They’ve helped me minimize that “But I can’t leave until I find a door!” desperation in mid-ramble–sometimes you can just bash a hole in the wall.

      1. fposte*

        Sorry, I overlooked the interview part–some of those ripcords aren’t really interview suitable. “Does that answer your question?” is a useful interview one.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Yes! *start to answer* – realize I am rambling. Pause. “does that answer your question?”

    4. Dr Dimple Pooper*

      I suggest practicing answering typical interview questions in a mirror or, better yet, recording yourself with your phone.

      You then can review your recorded answers and see what is hanging you up.
      Rinse and repeat until you have a crisp, succinct answer to the standard interview questions.

      Also practice the “tell me a time when …” style of interview questions.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes!
        And if you think your succinct answers are too brief, you can add something to the end like, “I can provide more details if you wish.” Let the listener decide if the answer satisfies their needs.

    5. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      These are all great suggestions – I’m a rambler & over-sharer, so interviews are a tightrope walk for me.

    6. 867-5309*

      I find if I slow down my talking and force myself to think about I’ll say next helps. Often it’s that my words are running alongside my thoughts so when I’m done, it’s like, “Wait. What. What now.”

    7. Federal Middle Manager*

      I think it helps to front-load answers with the most important information, don’t bury the lede. Then you can supplement your answer with either the most common caveats or a more generic list of common caveats, but no matter where you end, you will already have said the most important piece. Practicing answers and practicing giving quick relevant context is really vital here. Writing down answers first then practicing translating them into the more fluid spoken form works wonders.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I could see myself getting better at this when I was going to Toastmasters. The timed answer periods are a great training tool.
      (I plan to join, but the new chapter they were trying to start at my building fell apart due to scheduling issues. Phooey.)

  15. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    What is the next step when your company refuses reasonable accomodation for disability?
    I have mobility problems, and walk with a cane. Walking is very painful and tiring for me. I work in a large building with bathrooms at one end. When we first moved in, I was seated right by them, which was great! But my company moved us around, and now I’m at the opposite end of the building.
    I pointed out when they announced this that it would be better for me to stay near the toilets, but nope, I had to move with my team. After a couple of months, it became clear this wasn’t workable for me. I asked to be moved back. Nope, those seats were filled.
    Then I asked if I could work from home a couple of days a week. Nope, no one at our company was allowed to work from home. In desperation, I asked if they would provide a mobility scooter for me. Nope. I tried dehydrating myself and ended up with a kidney infection. I finally paid $250 out of pocket for a rolling walker with a seat (I’m fat as well, so needed a heavy duty one) and I STILL am in pain and have to sit down and rest on the way back to my desk from the bathroom.
    So. Lawyer? Disability rights group? If so, which one? I’m so tired.

    1. KR*

      No advice but I’m so sorry they’re being so unreasonable. Have you said the words “reasonable accommodation per the ADA” when requesting them? I wonder if that might remind them “Oh yup we actually have to do this!”

        1. WellRed*

          Hmm, are you saying those words to the right person? Maybe you’ve only asked boss when HR would be able to help. Or, ask boss if HR sucks. Escalate as necessary.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Lawyer time then. (They’ll be faster than the EEOC.) If you’re concerned about causing tension at work because you’re bringing in a lawyer (which is the unfortunate reality), you can tell them something like, “I’m very sure the law does require this accommodation but my sense is that it won’t be helpful for me to continue pushing that on my own. Given that, I’m going to ask a lawyer to get in touch with you about this, so that someone other than me is able to speak with you about it and hopefully reach a solution.”

                1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

                  Alison is right—the one thing I’d add is I’d speak with a lawyer *before* you have the conversation she suggests. They don’t need to know you already have one (“You will be hearing from my attorney, GOOD SIRS.”), but you don’t want them to lawyer up on this before you do, and a lawyer will be able to help you come up with a script that will scare them.

              2. ToS*

                What you might hear from an attorney is that mobility devices are considered “personal use”, so employers are not required to provide them.

                Yes, you do see them at grocery stores as a generous courtesy, not a right, and it confuses people.

                What has not been easily suggested is that you speak with your healthcare provider about this change. If your healthcare provider does not prescribe a mobility device (some consider walking as physical therapy, I wish I was joking, but HR is not in the medical profession, and providing a scooter might actually thwart the employees prognosis) OP may have to live with the reality of the move if her health care provider wants her to walk more. If she has a condition that suggests that she use a mobility device, they are covered by insurance, and can be claimed on flexible savings accounts.

                Don’t blast me, as this can be a no-win situation all around when people have pain. It’s hard any way you slice it. I’m part of a government agency that has a substantial 99 percent accessible campus for people who cannot use stairs. If your health condition mandates that you not walk substantial distances, please figure out your personal mobility device. HR can help you find space for parking it for intermittent use. If you need it for work, chances are you might need it for other parts of your life, too.

                Yes, it’s possible that HR dropped a ball somewhere, but chances are, people think that the accommodation process is supposed to work like showing up at the grocery store. We have auditors that look at how granted accommodations match up to limitations. If your documentation does not support your requests, your lawyer is going to send you back to your doctor.

                1. ToS*

                  Other aspects – yes, having healthcare providers fill out forms can be expensive. We provide an optional, basic form to guide providers to provide relevant information. Often the one form, plus an intake, gets enough information to move forward with a reasonable, effective accommodation. It may not be what the employee initially requests. The interactive process is how we get to that point. We do try to manage expectations. EEOC guidance states that mobility devices are personal use. Often someone who would benefit from one adapts their personal life (without a mobility device) by just not going out, and that has its own problems. Yes, some are quite large, but others are small enough that you don’t need a special vehicle to transport them.

                  We don’t know enough about the work to know if remote work is reasonable.

        2. fposte*

          Oof. And you’ve brought documentation from your doctor to HR? If so, I think lawyer/EEOC are the unfortunate next steps.

          1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

            Each accomodation request required a form to be filled out by my doctor. I’m paying for her kids’ college educations at this point.

            1. fposte*

              Oh, FFS. I can see not being able to fund you a scooter or being unable to arrange WFH, but they literally have desks that would work for you.

              EEOC/lawyer obviously has some serious downside potential, but you might start with eeoc dot gov to check for your nearest office and investigate a contact with them. Note also that some states (and probably even cities) have their disability commissions that you could contact; they’d probably be easier to communicate with so I’d try those first if they’re relevant.

            2. JSPA*

              You can bring in the lawyer because “this isn’t working, I’m out of ideas, nothing we’ve tried has worked, so we need someone to help us generate more ideas, and find a workable solution. A friend suggested that a disability lawyer would have much more experience than either of us, have a lot of practical experience as far as what works and what doesn’t, and as a bonus, they’d presumably know what the law requires.”

              That way you’re nominally going in very “we’re in this together to solve the problem.”

              In the meantime, there are worse stop-gap solutions than Depends. If it makes you feel better, astronauts and deep sea divers and other tough people in extreme jobs also use them. At the moment, your job is an extreme job. If it won’t bother you, get the bulky ones, and wear something tight-fitting over. If they don’t like the look, that may motivate their search for a better solution.

              (I’m assuming it would be shatteringly embarassing to just plop into someone else’s chair when caught short on your way to the toilet and soak it down, or pee on the floor, rather than dehydrating yourself to the point of UTIs. Now, I don’t know if I could bring myself to do that. Potty training is deep conditioning. But cost-wise, paying to clean or replace a few office chairs, or the disruption of needing to clean the floor, might bring home the problem for them. In fact, I’m surprised it has not just happened, given the urgency a UTI can generate.

              Right now, beyond the agony of UTI’s, you are also putting yourself at risk of kidney failure at a younger age than necessary. That’s a lot of pain. Where’s their part of the pain? You have every right to let them carry their fair share of the pain.

              1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                That is fantastic wording in your first paragraph. I’d love to highlight it in a post of its own — any objection? (Totally fine to say no!)

                1. JSPA*

                  sure! Hope this also means I’m forgiven for over-posting like a maniac these past couple of weeks, BTW.

              2. ADA OTJ*

                Can we not use Poise/Depends, etc as a shaming device? They are a solution and routine support to many people who have disabilities. I’ve been called by someone whose co-worker would *not* stop asking them how they went to the bathroom, having muscular dystrophy, and was overheard opining on that person’s bathroom use/non-use in the lunch room. (This was not a matter of smell)

                As far as carrying the pain, it’s inappropriate for HR to dump the pain of having to say “no” when their hands might be tied by factors they have little control over, including having a consistent process that assures reasonable accommodation. You might not see the pain, but from personal experience, it gets carried.

        4. BelleMorte*

          Have you contacted HR, or written a formal request with a doctor’s note that you have difficulty with your mobility and require disability accommodation? (Details usually aren’t needed in terms of diagnosis. Sometimes they will want reasonable suggestions.

      2. anonymoushiker*

        Yeah seconding this. I would make sure you’re using ADA & reasonable accommodations. Maybe get a doctor to write a clear note that for your health, you need to be situated close to the bathrooms?

      3. Mimmy*

        You shouldn’t have to use specific words or phrases though. Employers should be well enough aware of the ADA to interpret your wording as requesting a reasonable accommodation under the ADA. The fact that you ARE using those phrases and they’re still not budging concerns me. An employer doesn’t have to provide an accommodation if it poses an “undue hardship” – significant expense or difficulty. Aside from the seats near the restrooms being full, has your employer given you a reason for denying the accommodation? An employer can’t just outright say “no” – they should show why an accommodation can’t be provided. Without knowing the size of your employer and the layout of your building, I can’t offer any useful suggestions.

        One thing to note: The ADA says that an employer doesn’t have to provide personal-use items (common examples are hearing aids or glasses), so they may see the scooter as a personal-use item.

        1. valentine*

          they may see the scooter as a personal-use item.
          That’d be rich, given they’re the reason AlexandrinaVictoria needs the scooter.

          An employer can’t just outright say “no”
          They’re betting they won’t face, or can outlast, a lawsuit, or a second lawsuit for retaliation.

          1. ADA OTJ*

            EEOC considers scooters personal use devices, even if someone only wants to use it at work.

            There are times when accessible parking fills, like at a minor league baseball game (ask me how I know). If someone is driving themselves, and cannot otherwise make it to their seat – do they go home? or roll up and ask fan services where they can park their device while they enjoy the game in their seat? Hopefully they choose the latter.

            Yes, the health care system can be grossly expensive, this is why everyone needs to vote to assure that we are supporting healthcare for ALL. In the US, each state has a department of disabilities. They can be a great resource for sorting out technical issues, especially if the health care provider is not too savvy on aspects of living with the disabling condition (they should be much better at diagnosis and treatment, though!). Often they try to help circulate items that are have been lightly used.

    2. mf*

      This is a good question. Would love to see Allison’s response since advice for these situations usually recommends just citing the ADA when asking for an accommodation (which assumes the company will comply with the ADA).

    3. Mbarr*

      No advice either, but I feel for you. I herniated a disc several months ago and ended up with a rare condition that made walking SUPER painful, and I’d dread having to get up and hobble to the bathroom with my cane. In my case, surgery relieved my symptoms, but I can’t fathom dealing with that on a permanent basis.

      I hope someone else can offer you solutions.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      So I see you’ve been working with HR. What’s your boss like, and does your boss know you’re going through this with them? Basically, can you enlist your boss’s help in this at all? Can/will they advocate for you with HR? And I think it’s lawyer time unfortunately. It may be enough to have a consult with one and then have them write a letter. HR may take that as enough lawyer involvement to scare them into doing the right thing, and it may not need to go any further.

      Other question – how big is your HR department? Does one person handle all the ADA accomodation requests and is a loon, but they have a boss who may not realize what’s happening and could be approached? Basically can you start running this up the chain and both yours and in HR and maybe get traction that way? Because, this is not an unreasonable request on your part!

    5. Jaydee*

      Lawyer. Might be worth contacting a disability rights group or your state’s protection and advocacy agency for a recommendation. Some might even handle some EEOC complaints, but at the very least they should know who who the lawyers are that do a good job on these cases.

    6. Jill March*

      Good lord. This isn’t even an accommodation that costs the company money! At my last job, we had to rotate which teams sat by the bathrooms because the smells would often waft out and NO ONE wanted to sit there.

      I’m sorry you are dealing with this.

      1. tangerineRose*

        I was thinking this too – wouldn’t the people who sit there now be pleased to move?

    7. Out of Retail*

      Nothing to add- just condolences and please do update us and let us know how this goes. This is pretty godawful on their part.

  16. Super Anonywoman*

    So, one of my “model train” designs was installed yesterday, involving several companies working to finish it at the last minute. It was my first time working with several parts of this design, so as a result some of my drawings were off and I didn’t know it. I now know what I could have done better, but I feel bad about adding stress and work to my coworkers as well as other contractors.

    How have you dealt with making mistakes and improving your work after things go bad?

    1. Triumphant Fox*

      I always appreciate an acknowledgement that something went wrong and then an action plan for how to fix it.

      I few months ago we had something go wrong when a few people were out of the office and our typical process couldn’t happen. My boss was understandably ticked, so I created a document outlining the issue, what I think was the cause, and what processes I will put in place to fix it in the future. I hope it showed that I took I not only seriously but am also taking steps to prevent it, not hoping for the best next time. In this case, I would create a document that outlined what exactly didn’t fit, what issues that caused, how it was fixed in the interim and how you can avoid it next time. What additional levels of review would have helped you catch those errors? Did someone with fresh eyes need to take a look at an earlier stage? Were you pressed for time? Should there have been a first run-through before everyone else was involved?

      1. Super Anonywoman*

        Thanks! Yeah I know all of the things I need to do now to not make the same mistakes again. And my boss isn’t mad at me over it, which is a new experience. At my other job in the same field, I was called out and/or yelled at for every little thing that went wrong. I’m still learning new mental habits. Healing from old jobs takes so much more time than anyone realizes.

    2. Denise*

      It doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong necessarily. I think with all work, especially if something hasn’t been done before, there will be things that have to be learned or hiccups. I might focus less on feeling bad about yourself and more on just expressing appreciation to the team for their patience and dedication in seeing the installation through to completion. (Sounds like a fun job, btw)

        1. JSPA*

          Individually thank those who picked up the slack, and ask them for pointers if relevant. They successfully did the troubleshooting, ergo they know how to troubleshoot. They may be able to point you to a sandbox that’s complete enough to do a fairly substantive dry run in advance, or they may be willing to help with that, so long as they don’t have to do it as overtime, when you’re supposed to be going live 5 minutes ago. Nothing says “respect” like giving the people one step further along, enough time and flexibility to do their jobs seamlessly, and still make it to dinner and bed at a reasonable hour.

    3. Llellayena*

      This is the entire definition of the architecture profession. Sometimes it’s your own mistakes/oversights you’re fixing, sometimes is someone else’s mistake. Basically, own the problem, apologize and collaborate on a solution that works best to preserve the design intent and accommodate construction possibilities (basically don’t redesign something that can’t be built).

    4. designbot*

      I remind myself that this is why design is called a “practice.” We’re always practicing, always learning. The feedback loop of concept to detail to built result to “oh shoot I don’t like how that turned out” is incredibly valuable, and even people who’ve been practicing for 30 years still learn from that feedback loop. Experience the feeling, learn from it, but don’t dwell on it.

      1. Super Anonywoman*

        Thank you!! Yes, I just wish it didn’t take making mistakes to learn all of this.

  17. Bee's Knees*

    We have some visitors coming next month. As a reminder, we make… teapots. These teapots are not anything fancy. Almost every person in America affords these teapots. We do not make luxury cars, private jets, or anything having to do with celebrities. This visit from a potential customer is shaping up to be the biggest dog and pony show I’ve ever seen. We’ve been told there is no budget for this. They’re talking about bringing them in on a helicopter. A helicopter! And I’m really glad that the VPs weren’t in the meeting when GrandBoss said that, because I snorted. Loudly. I was not the only one.

    So I’m working on putting together swag bags for these people. I asked one of the VPs what he was thinking, and he suggested shirts. I pulled out my list, and I could see the light bulb come on. We’re getting them shirts, and I thought a small tote bag (like a grocery one), baseball caps, pen, notebook, water bottle, mouse pad, key chain, and a sticker with the logo. Any other thoughts or suggestions?

    1. L.S. Cooper*

      Other useful things, maybe? I live in Colorado, so the two things I would insist on giving a visitor would be a big water bottle and some chapstick, so they don’t dry out completely. If there’s similar weather concerns wherever you are, maybe a nod to those?
      Personally, I always rifle through swag bags in search of A) stickers, and, B) snacks. Everything else is nice but secondary.

      1. Emily S.*

        I love the idea of snacks! As long as they don’t contain nuts, since a lot of people are allergic.

    2. fposte*

      Locally themed stuff can be good–either food or sports/university/town attraction t-shirts, especially if they’re known outside of your area.

      1. bookends*

        Seconding this! I work in Milwaukee and my organization had to put together something like this once. Someone went to a gift shop that sells local products and got a few things, including bars of nice soap made with beer (!!!), that people liked.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      I would lean towards some tech things as well. Tablet protector thing. Power bank. USB. The multiple adapter things. Wall charger, adapter. Nice umbrellas. Luggage tags.

      You could also do a “local things” basket. I’m in Baltimore, so we do Utz Crab Chips (which are gross IMHO), Berger Cookies (which are delicious for about 2 bites and then sugar overload) etc.

      1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

        Seconding this! I’ll throw out SWAG that doesn’t have purpose, but I keep USB drives, power banks, etc. And, I love the nod to local businesses – especially if they’re small businesses or business partners.

      2. Nessun*

        Thirding (?) this! Tech items always go down well – power banks, USBs, USB port bars (is that what they’re called, lots of ports on one USB stick?). Also, we do golf balls and ball markers – but that’s a know-your-audience thing, and because we sponsor a few major competitors.

      2. Shelly*

        And all of the swag that goes with teapots, bonus points for local. For example, local specialty tea, local specialty honey, teacup from a local ceramics store

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          A co-worker came back from a convention and shared her freebies with us…. I picked the coffee measuring spoon.

    5. Not me... the other guy*

      Cash in on the anti straw movement? There are stainless steel straws that can be engraved with a logo. This is assuming you aren’t in the plastic straw business.

    6. LadyDisdain*

      As someone who receives and passes out a LOT of branded swag through my job here’s a few people seem to get very excited about:
      -branded nail files
      -Post it notes
      -mechanical pencils
      -highlighters
      -foldable reusable totes (the kinds that come in their own little pouch to put the bag back in)
      -GOOD water bottles or insulated cups (don’t bother with a cruddy one)
      -good hand cream/lotion
      -pashmina/scarf

      Local stuff like, honey, snacks, if your region has a super local soda, tea or coffee if applicable

      In my work, stuff like mouse pads, key chains, coffee mugs unless they’re particularly pretty/cute/unique, or clothing items other than scarves/pashminas tend to linger

    7. T. Boone Pickens*

      I can help you out here! I was just at a large industry conference in June and here is what people scooped up like starving jackals.

      Branded G2 pens…you would’ve thought I was giving out magic cancer pills or something. As someone who loves G2 pens..I get it but dang…people were…really enthusiastic. Apparently spending extra money for G2s was a good idea.

      Relatively high end 30 oz insulated tumblers. Not quite Yetti brand but the next step down. Also insanely popular.

      Softcover notebooks w/ company branding (I worked with Poppin—they were great)

      Company branded USB Flash Drives.

    8. QCI*

      Pen? maybe. Notepad, mousepad and keychain? Will they actually use that? I guess people like getting free stuff, but useful, quality stuff would stick out far more than generic freebies. Or really good food.

    9. LibbyG*

      I once got a pen as swag that looked like a person with a microfiber mop (for hair) and a tip that can work as a phone stylus. I loved that thing.

    10. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      How much stuff are you getting for each person? That sounds like quite a bit already, but I’ve never done an even like this. Do people still use mouse pads?

    12. Another JD*

      The mouse pad, key chain, and stickers will go in the trash. Put the stickers on food items. We have a bowl of snacks in the conference room at my law office and clients go nuts for it. It’s bizarre how much people love free food.

    13. La la laaaa*

      I’m a bit of a zealot when it comes to waste-free stuff, so I sincerely apologize for what’s coming….but just a plea to try to avoid plastic packaging/junky plastic stuff as much as possible! The best things I’ve gotten have been a nice umbrella in a cloth sleeve and a notebook with subtle, which both came in a cloth bag that I now use for groceries.

    14. Can't Sit Still*

      Something people are willing to fight for in my company are the large Dovana refillable journals. People absolutely love them. They’re very durable, the covers are sturdy, and everyone thinks they’re leather. The paper is very nice to write on.

      Make sure you order enough for everyone, though. Every time I get an order in for my team, people I’ve never seen before show up at my desk to make puppy dog eyes and plead to have one. I work at a company where we get lots of expensive swag and these are still extremely high value items.

    15. Alison*

      To run counter to some others’ responses, I would say no to USB flash drives. I throw out any freebie USB drive that I am given, as I don’t ever want to run the risk that someone, somewhere put something nefarious on that thing and now I’ve gone and plugged it into my or my company’s computer. Not worth the risk to me, although maybe I’m a bit paranoid.

      1. Jill March*

        Agreed. They’re cheap enough on their own. Unless you’re getting a dual-function one or something fancy looking. I wouldn’t use a free one either.

    16. Been There*

      My company always gives out notebooks – but I also work at a company that manufactures an integral part of the notebook. So it makes sense in that context. Still, notebooks are always useful, and people appreciate them when they’re nice.

    17. Tom & Johnny*

      I would kill right now to get a swag bag with a keychain penlight / flashlight. They’re small, relatively cheap, and so so incredibly handy. Even if the recipient doesn’t use them, they will give them to their co-worker, cousin, nibling, or child.

      You never realize how much you need a small penlight on your keychain until the one you relied on for two years breaks and you can’t find another one in all the typical stores!

      Yes while most phones have a flashlight function, it’s not the same as a light literally at your fingertips while walking in the dark.

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        +1 on the keychain penlight. I always take those when their offered and throw them in the car, gym bag, office desk, emergency/first aid kits and such. The one in my purse is great for reading menus in restaurants with “mood” lighting. I hate using the flashlight feature on my phone — it’s too cumbersome and I’d rather save the battery life on my phone for phone things.

    18. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Cheap but decent quality headphones if you can get them; the kind that a person might keep in their gym bag/car/desk as a backup to their primary nice headphones and wouldn’t be too upset if they crapped out after 6 months.

      Bags of all kinds always go quickly whenever we’ve stocked booths on my university campus.

      Also, those dumb stress relief squeezy toys that are made in a plethora of shapes for every industry — we had feet for a particular event and they were creepy (hello, bins of disembodied toddler-sized feet) and everyone loved them.

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Thought of something else…branded badge reels or lanyards.

        1. Dancing Otter*

          Oh, yes, lanyards with reels! I nearly cried when mine broke.

          Major caution on the shirts, though. Sizes matter. One size does NOT fit all. Give a person of size a shirt that’s too small (or say you don’t have any big enough), and you have made an enemy. Especially if it’s the kind of event where everyone is going to wear the shirts. Do not humiliate people whose goodwill you are trying to cultivate.

          We gave out padfolios one year, with the logo pressed into the fake leather. (They weren’t expensive enough to be real, but looked good.) Very popular, and we saw a lot of them at later meetings.

    19. JSPA*

      1. something local. If there’s no famous product, a little nicely wrapped local mini brownie / blondie / piece of fudge will do nicely, or a locally hand-crafted small paper item or card.

      2. go back and cross out anything that’s culturally problematic, if they’re from another culture. Ditto the wrong number of anything. (Japanese, avoid 4 of an item / things divided in 4 parts; Korean, no cutting implements, handkerchiefs, shoe-themed items–unless, I suppose, you’re a shoe company etc.) Also remove anything that’ll drip, or not make it through customs, or whose humor may not work (chocolate or candy “[some animal] poop” is a common gag gift that does not belong in a gift bag for people coming in by helicopter).

      3. if there’s an outdoor sport that’s famous in the region, some nod to that (separate from the team sports)–could be as simple as a postcard or two with a map of the local ski hill or mountain bike track, or county fair.

      4. If it’s a USB or other electronics device, if they’re high up enough that industrial espionage could be a thing, I’d get a major brand name, sealed, and add a logo chain, not order an off-brand with logo added. (If I wanted to do industrial espionage, you know I’d offer USB drives with Your Logo Here at a price nobody can resist, and keep an eagle eye on any potentially useful orders.)

      5. if it’s in the budget, something that can double as a (kid-safe!) kid gift (e.g. small stuffed mascot) for the “did you bring me anything?” question.

    20. Gumby*

      I was at a networking thing and absolutely love the socks that one place was handing out. They were not just boring old white socks though – these had a blue hexagon pattern and were really cute. Possibly also the company name on the toes (or maybe just on the cardboard sleeve thing around the socks?).

      So cute / good quality socks or maybe the warm fuzzy slipper socks? Or maybe that just sounds good to me now because I am thinking longingly of the weekend and not having to be wearing shoes…

    21. MissDisplaced*

      Snacks, specifically local specialties of the candy type are nice. I wouldn’t do wine though, as it’s hard to take home on the plane (unless they’re not flying home).

      1. MaxiesMommy*

        Breath mints (branded) are always fought over. The flavors are SO good—orange mint, really nice flavors you don’t get in stores. And they’re in a reusable tin.

  18. Anon Today*

    I’m about to start a job at a company where there are a lot of layoffs and problems with the budget. My position is pretty secure (due to how it is funded), but a lot of other folks will be feeling the pinch. I have no idea how I should best navigate this situation and it’s really worrying me. Any advice?

    For context, the job is in a field where layoffs are very rare, so people are already on social media expressing intense fear/anger at just the possibility of layoffs.

    1. Bananatiel*

      I think I would generally avoid discussing it given that you are in a secure place– but if it does come up or someone corners you about it somehow I would be as compassionate and sympathetic as possible. I don’t think you can go wrong with kindness in a situation like this. Keep whatever you say fairly nonspecific as well– you don’t want to accidentally imply you have knowledge of anyone’s situation.

    2. Tom & Johnny*

      When I went into a similar job, I tended to let people vent. At least as long as it wasn’t too toxic.

      Inevitably you will need resources or answers from colleagues or from another team. As you learn who performs what function and where to go to get answers, people will tend to overshare while stressed by layoffs.

      “This function used to belong to Irma, but they let her go and I inherited it, but I don’t know what I’m doing yet. Plus they’re giving me Rodey’s work on the XYZ project and I have to learn that too.”

      Just make understanding noises, let them talk about their lost friends, and most importantly, offer no opinions or judgments on the matter whatsoever. Don’t defend the company, or agree with the company, or complain about the company. Relate to these coworkers as people in line with you at the grocery store oversharing about their day.

      That’s not to say let them shirk getting you information that you need. Just, don’t give them advice. Offer no helpful suggestions. Don’t talk about neat ideas. They don’t want solutions, they just need to feel heard by the new person.

      Plus you’ll get a ton of valuable information this way. A ton.

      1. Anon Today*

        True! Thank you. Yes, I usually try to go into new jobs keeping my mouth shut, but in this case, I think it is even more important.

      2. JSPA*

        Homilies, praise, thanks, and self care talk.

        “This must be rough for everyone. How are you coping?”
        “My dad always said that not knowing is the worst part, and I sometimes think he was right.”
        “be good to yourself.”
        “at least we can be here for each other.”
        “Whatever happens, I’m so glad we’ve had this chance to meet and work together.”
        “Your thoughts are so well-presented!”
        “I feel I understand this place a little better after talking to you.”
        “Hope, self confidence and self respect go a long way towards making turbulent times more bearable.”
        “I wish I’d always had coworkers like you.”

        Basically, you’re reminding them they’re valued as people, they’re compentent, they’re employable, you are glad they exist, you’re glad to know them, and that a good attitude may not preserve their job, but it can preserve their career. If they all stay, hey, they know you as the happiness guru (they can get to know your snark side later, if you have one of those). If they go, they go on a high note, as far as interacting with you.

        (Caveat, this won’t work if it is your job to lower the axe. Frankly, if that’s your job, you pretty much have to be paid in money for what it takes out of you in emotions and karma; the uplifting executioner isn’t atually a thing.)

    3. ..Kat..*

      Even if your job is secure, you will feel a lot of stress from the people around you at work. There will be venting that you will hear, and you may have people venting at you.

      I would suggest you do a lot of self care, including plenty of sleep, exercise, good nutrition, and work/life balance (i.e., do not work a lot of hours).

  19. Nonnonnon*

    I’m going through a divorce and I’m moving back home (multiple states away) to regroup and start a new chapter. I’m still employed (my employer has been really kind and has agreed to let me work remotely until I find a new job). What should I say when interviewing if I’m asked about why I moved back home? Should I say anything about the divorce or be vague about family changes? I’d rather be brief and upfront and mention the divorce (I’m matter-of-fact and not emotional about it), but would that be a mistake?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      “I missed my hometown and wanted to be closer to family.” That would probably be your best bet. I don’t know if I would mention the divorce, because that just seems a little too personal to me and would require a response on the interviewer’s part. As in, I’m pretty good in most situations, but if someone said to me, “I got divorced so I’m moving back home,” I wouldn’t know whether to say “I’m sorry” or “congratulations”, you know? I would also wonder if they were moving home for convenience and might not be around for a while. You can also skip the “missed my hometown” part.

      Once you’re working in a place, you’re totally fine answering, “Why did you move back?” with, “Oh, I got a divorce and decided to come home.”

      1. Anon Today*

        Yes, I agree. Divorces are so complex that I never know what to say when someone I don’t know announces one. So, I would stick with- Wanted to be closer to family. People will understand that.

      3. Clisby*

        I agree. Anyone can understand that someone might like to move back to her hometown. (Unless it’s Hometown on a Hellmouth.) The divorce is irrelevant.

    2. Meese*

      Agreed about saying, “I wanted to be closer to family” or something like that. I would not mention divorce, as that’s too personal for a job interview and the person won’t know how to react (congratulations? I’m sorry?) so it’s a conversation-ender. I moved back to my hometown after having a baby, and that’s not something I want to bring up in an interview, so I would use the family line. It’s great! People take it at face value, and sometimes it leads to a nice ice-breaker conversation about the city, growing up here, etc.

    3. Alex*

      “I moved to be closer to family” is really all you need. It’s true, and normal, and won’t raise any questions.

      Not that you need to keep your divorce a secret, but it’s not that relevant in that it doesn’t affect your ability to do your job. In other words, it’s none of their business!

    4. 867-5309*

      I’m in the SAME situation. I live abroad in Norway and am returning the U.S. I plan to stay at my current employer as long as the remote things works. However, the old standby, “I want to be closer to family,” always works. Hang in there.

    5. caffe latte*

      Also, depending how far you’re moving: “I missed this part of the country and really enjoyed living here”, “I missed living in a small town/big town/etc, and I’m looking forward to enjoy the quiet/amenties the town has/etc “. Focus on positive things: If you were leaving a bad job, you wouldn’t say in your interview “I want this job because I hate my other job”, you’d focus on positive things to say. Do that, if asked.

    6. Tom & Johnny*

      I’m with you, I hate being vague. I much prefer being matter-of-fact and I’ve usually found interviewers appreciate it. Which is not to say oversharing of course.

      “My husband and I mutually ended our marriage, which gave me time to evaluate where I want to be, and I realized that was here near my family. I have a great family and I’m glad to be home!”

      The trick is to be relentlessly upbeat about the facts, whatever they are. Short, sweet, simple, and positive. You can avoid the big bad D word if you want to. Or use it, if avoiding it feels too circumlocutuitous. What you want to avoid is a change in tone or verbiage that makes the answer feel like a sore spot. It has to be authentic to you.

      Most importantly, give the interviewer NO NEED to feel like they need to reassure YOU, whatsoever. You’re on top of this! You’ve got it handled. This is a refreshing new life! (Even if those things are not literally true every single minute.)

      I think in general, people who are most naturally matter-of-fact people, find being vague extremely difficult and burdensome. So they end up putting too much weird energy into it. Which makes the thing they think they must be vague about look like a bigger deal, compare to when they’re allowed to simply be matter-of-fact and be themselves.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I’d probably go even shorter.

        “I’ve decided to relocate back to my home town following a divorce.”
        “I’ve decided to relocate back here to be closer to family.”
        “I’m originally from x town and I’ve decided I wanted to move back to this area permanently.”

    7. JSPA*

      “A relationship took me elsewhere, but that that’s over, and I get to come home. It’s honestly such a relief to be back!”

      I don’t stress family (just as I would not stress kids) in that employers may see it as hinting not at you having a support network, but at you coming back to be support for a family member needing extra support. They should not hold it against you, but they could.

    8. Librarygal30*

      I was in this exact situation! I simply said, “Changes in my personal life required a move back home. I’m excited to start the next chapter of my life”. Of course, that was after the interview where I told them about the divorce, they stopped me, told me I couldn’t say that, and then I re-phrased the answer, and the interview continued.

  20. lemon*

    How soon can you start pushing for change in a new job?

    I started a new job about a month ago. I haven’t been given a lot of work to do yet. My role was previously vacant for a few years before they decided to reopen the position. So, my manager has been working solo for a while now. I think it’s an adjustment for them to be managing someone again. They keeps saying that they’ll figure out what projects to hand off to me, at some point, but nothing substantial has been given to me yet. Most of the tasks I’ve been given have been incredibly simple and only take me 15-30 minutes tops to complete, which leaves me with nothing else to do all day. In previous jobs, I’ve done what I can to fill that time productively, such as by reading and updating training manuals/documentation, or brushing up on skills by doing Lynda courses. But because my manager has been working solo for so long, nothing is documented. Everything is in their head. They’ve been periodically training me on things as requests come in, but it doesn’t seem like there’s a structured training plan. One of the things I was hired to do was to start creating some documentation, but again, I haven’t been trained enough yet to start doing that. And I’m kind of maxed out on Lynda courses/brushing up on skills– I’ve got tons of skills and info and knowledge in my head, but no work to apply any of it to.

    I know I should have a talk with my manager about wanting to take on more work/speed up my training. But I’m afraid that speaking up too much or too soon will cause tension between us. I think I’m once bitten, twice shy because I just left my last job because my relationship with my former manager turned into a burning dumpster fire of mutual distrust and dislike. Former manager was not very good and was very arrogant and generally difficult to work with, but I think what started us off on the wrong foot is that I started out pretty early suggesting changes and improvements and this rubbed them the wrong way. I tried to make sure I was suggesting things that were actually useful, and tried to do it respectfully, and made sure that I actually had plans for implementation (and then implemented independently when possible). So it wasn’t like I was making dumb suggestions or wasting their time. They just… didn’t like it.

    So anyway, I want to avoid rubbing my new manager the wrong way by pushing for change too soon. So, is one month too early to start asking for more work/more clarity on my role? Or should I wait it out a little bit longer?

    1. Nott the Brave*

      I don’t think it’s too soon, but I wouldn’t necessarily ask for clarification. Rather, try looking for a specific task or two that you could create the documentation for, and ask for the go-ahead on that. “I notice you do X a lot, and would love to document that as a procedure. Do I have your go-ahead to start on that?”

      1. lemon*

        By clarification, I mean… what is my job actually? What tasks/processes do I have ownership over? What projects will I eventually be responsible for? I feel like I still don’t know exactly what I’ll be working on longer-term.

        So far, the only work I’ve done is incredibly simple like… upload a video to a social media site, crop and upload a photo, copy and paste text from a pdf into a form on the website. I want to ask for clarity on what is my job because I want to make sure that these incredibly simple tasks aren’t the only thing I’m going to be doing six months from now. (For context: this is not an entry-level role. I have eight years of experience and am also in a pretty specialized master’s program, which is why I thought I was being hired.)

        So, I don’t even have things I can propose documentation for yet, because these tasks as so simple that they don’t need to be documented. And I don’t have a clear enough picture of this role yet to know what other, more complicated tasks do exist that do need documentation.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      You need to ask for clarity on what your role is supposed to be if for no other reason you are and will be evaluated by your employer based on what you accomplish. If neither you nor your direct manager knows what that is – or worse, she knows what your goals are and you don’t – you’ll almost be guaranteeing yourself a negative review. And if you sit down with your manager to try to get clarity and she doesn’t even know what she wants you do be doing, then that’s a data point for you to consider as well. Do you want to continue working some place where there’s no clear path for what success in your role looks like? Do you enjoy sitting around twiddling your thumbs all day without having anything worthwhile to do? You may need to leave this place if ambiguity is not your thing and you don’t feel comfortable taking initiative to create your own projects.

      As to whether a month somewhere is too soon to be suggesting changes, well, that depends. Some positions, like the one I’m currently in, was created expressly for that purpose, so it made sense for me to start developing training guides and holding training sessions after only being in my position a month. But if your role isn’t intended to be a change agent of sorts, then yes, you may rub people the wrong way by coming out the gate trying to change things. Right now, you don’t even seem to have a firm grasp about what you’re even supposed to be doing, so your suggestions for change could end up being tone deaf due to you not having the context behind why things are done the way they are in the first place.

      Ultimately, your new boss’s lack of communication with you is problematic. I’d focus on trying to improve that first before trying to improve anything else at this place.

      1. lemon*

        Thanks– your comment is definitely articulating some of the concerns behind my initial post. I’m definitely worried that without having a clear idea of this role and what I’m expected to accomplish, that I’m setting myself up for a negative review. I think I’ve been worried about having this conversation with my manager, because I really am afraid that the answer is that they’re ok with the lack of clarity and they really *don’t* have a clear path for what success looks like in this role.

        I think you’re totally right that any changes I propose right now would be completely tone deaf. I am usually very comfortable coming up with and leading my own projects, but the reason I haven’t done so is because of the complete lack of clarity. I don’t know enough to be able to propose anything that won’t be completely off-base/ineffectual.

        The only change I’m really focused on right now is in regards to communication and getting clarity on the role. Definitely a conversation I need to have with my manager.

        Thanks again for your perspective!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          You’re welcome! I hope you get a clear explanation from your boss on what you should be doing – this kind of situation is frustrating.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s all about the “light” push, the nudge motion.

      “I’m out of work, boss. Anything I can take off your plate for you?”

      And “Oh just curious but when I came on board, you were interested in me creating procedure docs, can we revisit that or should we circle back in awhile? What are you thinking?”

      This kind of stuff should only take a few minutes and just keep putting it in their mind that “oh yeah, that thing!”

      I’m used to the casual, kind and gentle reminder. Most appreciate it. I would also throw in a “I can stop bringing it up if you want me to!” if they seem like they’re over it.

      You’ve been there a month, so they should be getting comfortable with you by now. I would just stay soft about it and throw some soft pitches first, you know? Feel it out and then be ready to retract if necessary. Tone and keeping it short tends to be the key!

    4. Adlib*

      I’m in a slightly similar position. My position is brand new to the company, and for the first couple of months, everyone was so busy they didn’t have time to show me things or hand things off so I started looking elsewhere internally. I went to other departments where I also had knowledge and offered to help with things that related to my current job. For example, I work with data, but I have a marketing background/experience so I went to the marketing department here to offer my advice/help on their data-related items. They’re so happy I’m here, and my boss is happy that I’m helping other departments as well as my own. I don’t know if that’s at all possible with what you do, but it’s the strategy that’s worked well for me!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup – finding other opportunities if you can’t create projects in your own department are a great way to build skills, network, and stay busy (while also making your boss look good).

    5. Tom & Johnny*

      I’ve had good results in jobs like this by doing almost a ‘value added’ thing with each ridiculously small assignment.

      So you need a set of packages sent out today via FedEx? Okay, great, lets do that. Welp it’s the end of the day, here’s your spreadsheet of what we sent out, to whom, at what speeds, at what cost, and with their tracking numbers. We’re talking a five column spreadsheet of data copied and pasted from the work already being performed as you go. This is nothing. Does it impress a new boss? Eff yeah.

      That’s a low level example but the principle applies more to more complex work. When they’re not giving me enough to do, I do or say something during the project that demonstrates my understanding of how it fits into the bigger picture. Which demonstrates that I’m capable of more than they are giving me.

      We want to form a corporation in Delaware. Okay, great. Do we plan to apply for S-Corp status with the IRS? What about checking the entity name? Will we foreign qualify the entity in our home state? Then we need to perform a name check there also.

      If your’e not that deeply familiar with the industry you’re in yet, you can still demonstrate understanding of general business principles that apply. Where are we tracking this? What budget are we working with? What is the turnaround time for the larger project this is a piece of?

      The point is that you want to leave your boss with the feeling that, “Lemon really knocked it out of the park with coordinating those FedEx deliveries.” The next part is below conscious thought, “I am underutilizing them and I can clearly trust them with more.” You will get more, and most importantly, you will be given things that you are entrusted to start figuring out on your own.

      Basically, earn your boss’ trust by demonstrating capability with the little piddling crap they’re giving you by knocking it out of the park. Give them a value-added component to everything they give you. Which isn’t to say they think you are untrustworthy, only that they’ve been doing it by themselves for so long they’re not consciously aware they don’t trust other people with the work. Show them they don’t need to hold your hand nearly to the extent their fears of training someone might lead them to believe.

      You do have to be careful when you’re doing this not to go over the top with it. You’re demonstrating capability. Not begging for an assignment to be the person who now tracks all incoming and outgoing FedEx shipments forevermore. Don’t do anything you wouldn’t be comfortable repeating with each instance of the assignment.

      1. lemon*

        This makes sense. This is usually how I approach things. I just haven’t been given any task yet where I even have the ability to demonstrate extra competence. I can’t create a spreadsheet of the two videos I’ve posted to YouTube. There was one task I was given where I could put some extra into it and I did. It was just one thing, so it hasn’t made a huge difference so far.

        Unfortunately, this strategy hasn’t gotten me great results in the past. To use your example, the follow-up to “Lemon really knocked it out of the park with coordinating those FedEx deliveries,” hasn’t been “I am underutilizing them and I can clearly trust them with more.” It’s been, “So, let’s be sure to always have Lemon do FedEx deliveries,” when previously, deliveries had been a minor part of my job that I wasn’t particularly crazy about.

        1. Tom & Johnny*

          Would returning the metrics on those two videos be valuable? “Here’s an update on video X and video Y. It looks like they’ve been viewed 300 times. X is more popular than Y by a slight margin, because Y is too long probably. They are most viewed late at night in [this region]. And they are most closely linked as suggestions on [these other videos]. Do you want me to keep tracking this kind of information so we can improve our YouTube submissions? What else do you want me to track about these?”

          I completely hear you about self-assigning work you don’t want to keep doing. You do have to be careful about where you pop up with awesome new value added tasks. If you’re always the eager beaver, you can get overloaded with BS and not gain any substance. You have to add value where it’s strategic for YOU to add it.

    6. JSPA*

      You can’t suggest changes to the process, but you can ask what process(es) they’d like to start documenting first, and how he feels about agreeing on one task, each day, that he’ll do “out loud” with you at his shoulder, taking notes as he free-forms.

      Be clear that it does not need to be a linear process–if he gets where he’s going circuitously, that’s fine.

      And then, if it’s meandering, don’t assume that there is a purpose to the route, but also don’t assume that there isn’t.

  21. Employee Engagement ideas!*

    I have been put in charge of improving employee engagement in my company.
    I’m generally looking to improve general happiness in their jobs, improve communication with managers from top down and then from staff and upward as well as cross-teams.

    I have no ability to improve wages/benefits/Vacation time unfortunately as this is union-mandated.

    I thought you brilliant folks might have some suggestions! I’m not opposed to social events, but that is not the primary purpose of this project. What works for your company or you? What doesn’t work? Any resources that are recommended?

    1. Dr Dimple Pooper*

      My last company would occasionally have ice cream socials in the afternoon around 2 p.m.
      It was nice to get out of the office, go outside and enjoy the afternoon with some cold ice cream (with all the toppings) and chat.

      1. Mimi Me*

        My company does this but they only do it at the main location. Those of us who work at the smaller (necessary!) branches or from home miss out on the treats and it sucks. Especially when some thoughtless organizer sends a company wide email letting everyone know to head on down for treats. If your office does have a similar set up, make sure you think of those outside of the office as well. Around the first of the year the company sends a gift out in hopes of it being a morale booster. This year it was a gift card to a movie theater and some microwave popcorn. I kind of liked that.

    2. WellRed*

      What does the company do to ensure employees feel heard and valued? That, if they have a suggestion for say, improving a process, it’s not ignored?

    3. Mbarr*

      At an old company (it was massive), we had something called Top Tips. Anyone, ANYONE, in the company could submit a suggestion/concern as a ticket. The suggestion would be routed to the appropriate department for evaluation/thoughts. The thing is, the person who submitted it was kept apprised of its status at every single stage of the process. It let them know action was being taken, and the reasons why it was/wasn’t adopted.

      (As I type this, I suddenly realize that my old company did this too in a more modern sense – people could submit suggestions and then up vote/down vote everyone’s ideas. If an idea got enough votes, it was routed for evaluation.)

    4. Sparkelle*

      Engagement is a top down thing. Unfortunately, organisations think they can bypass the hard work by holding pizza parties or “ice breakers.” Nope. It boils down to the trust you have in your manager. How do you increase that? Make sure the manager cares and has the power and discretion to show they “have the back” of their direct reports. Make sure they are managing the way Alison models on this website. Because it involves managing managers, it can’t be delegated. If you have the power to do this, then great. If you don’t, then it doesn’t really matter what you do because it’s just window dressing to allow some executive to say they are “doing something” about the engagement problem and check that box on their performance review.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        That’s an important bit. Make sure that management is showing up for the ice cream social or whatever, at least for a little while. If mgmt isn’t participating, then there’s the edgy feeling that builds up around how long an employee can stick around at such a thing.

      2. Employee Engagement Ideas*

        This has support of the CEO to develop an ongoing plan to improve things, so I’m hopeful it’s not just window dressing. I am definitely not looking at pizza parties and icebreakers, as I totally agree it just covers the underlying problem. Improving trust is a great point.

        1. Aphrodite*

          Given that what I would love to see is supervisory/management opportunities for those who are normally overlooked such as admins at all levels from reception to executive assistant.

          I’ve mentioned this before on here, but admins tend to have, and use on a daily basis, excellent skills in communication, prioritizing, working with diverse people and demands, and many, many more. In fact, if i ran a company to them first to fill a project management or any other type of management role before I’d look for a grad degree.

        2. Tom & Johnny*

          If the company is not already doing 360 reviews, see how far you can get with opening discussion on just the barest suggestion of 360 reviews. These are reviews where the employees also review UP. As well as review their peers. It’s 360, not just top-down.

          Many companies that have never used them are deeply uncomfortable with the idea. “You mean my employees would be reviewing ME? I don’t know if that’s fair.” Which of course, why wouldn’t it be? So it can take time to reach the comfort level that it improved employee morale and engagement to know that they have a voice, even though the company is obviously not a democracy.

          The trick to 360 reviews is that the up-reviews and peer reviews have to be thoroughly anonymized. And that top management has to read and participate in understanding the final results. There are companies that will come in and help you perform a 360 review, which can be crucial to having them implemented fairly, correctly, and the results taken seriously.

      3. Eleanor Konik*

        Thiiiiis.
        Look to things like “how do you train your management teams” and “how much oversight is there for how well your managers actually manage.”

      4. Employee*

        This.
        If people don’t feel like their manager cares about them and their career, ice cream parties and other gimmicks won’t help.

    5. Kathenus*

      Ask people. The best way to improve engagement is to include employees in the efforts. You can keep suggestions realistic by framing the question specifically. Instead of ‘What would people want to see improve or change about the workplace’, ask something more like ‘Within current staffing and budget resources, what ideas do people have for changes or improvements in the workplace’.

      This approach has worked with my teams in the past because you’re setting clear and realistic expectations of what the resources are. I’m actually doing a similar exercise with my teams right now and they are providing two lists – one of ideas that are feasible within our unit within our resources and purview, and one that are realistic within normal operation (meaning that they might involve increased resources, but in line with what might be budgeted for in the operating budget for the next year) or that may not require resources but need approvals from outside of our unit to proceed (for example schedule flexibility).

    6. Nott the Brave*

      My office has great engagement policies that don’t necessarily depend on the benefits (which are great). Here are a few of them:
      -Everyone is expected to work from the office, but there are no restrictions on WFH if you need it.
      -Each supervisor is expected to conduct a 1:1 meeting once a week to check in (I have one once a week with my boss, and one once a week with my intern).
      -We have an open culture about 1:1s – anyone can request a 1:1 from anyone else in the company, dependent on availability (the CEO doesn’t have much time for 1:1s from people other than direct reports).
      -We have a 15 minute meeting each morning to communicate our team focuses for the day, with Monday set aside for focuses for the week.
      -Decisions and priorities are communicated once they are set.
      -We have a low-key social activity 1/month or so – usually a game night. Attendance is truly optional, with no weight placed on attending.

      One caveat – our organization is extremely small, with 15 full-time employees and about the same of interns supporting us.

      2. Asta*

        “We have a 15 minute meeting each morning to communicate our team focuses for the day”

        This would actually drive me complete insane. Weekly? Fine. Daily? Aaaarrghhhhh.

        1. Tom & Johnny*

          Their meeting maybe an offshoot from Agile development, which when implemented correctly, can be really effective and engaging. I know I’ve had days where I’m not 100% clear on what my bosses priorities are for that day until the afternoon, and not necessarily for lack of trying to find out.

          A 10-15 min standup where someone says “My team is getting the Johnson project out the door today” and someone else says “My team is doing intake on the Cameron project today” can be a tremendous help.

    7. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Our employee engagement team schedules food trucks to come and park outside our building on a fairly regular basis.

    8. AcademiaNut*

      I think the first thing is to listen. Ask employees for input (truly anonymous input! use paper and a box) about what they do and don’t like about how things work and any suggestions. I’d list categories, to make it clear that you’re not asking about big things (money, vacation, health plans, etc) Maybe things like communication, supplies and equipment, office atmosphere, professional support/growth – others might have more suggestions.

      Don’t underestimate the power of employees knowing that their concerns are being heard and taken serious (and acted on when possible). If there’s something that’s a common issue or request that can’t be handled, explain why (eg, “against union rules”).

      Beyond that, a lot depends on how things are generally. If your workplace is dysfunctional, a social mixer won’t make up for bad management, and you’ll need to address that first.

    9. QCI*

      Better communication from top down, like why certain changes are happening. Big bosses being seen AND approachable. (Just seeing them isn’t engaging). Everyone grumbles about decisions that management makes, so being as clear as possible and maybe even open to discussion could help.

    10. Some clever pun*

      When my new great-grandboss started he set up an email address for suggestions relating to ‘time wasters’ in people’s daily jobs. He waited a month or so then assigned specific people to address specific problems from the emails. That system really helped because it’s not always clear who to take a problem to or whether they will get round to/be able to fix it. There is also a yearly staff satisfaction survey processed by an outside organization to remain properly anonymous.

      1. BelleMorte*

        To build on this, a similar repository for “small petty annoyances” might also be worthwhile. Little things that grate on people daily but never get fixes. i.e. lack of a garbage cans or lighting outside the building, or the fact that the toilet in the upstairs washroom always runs, or never has paper towels, etc. Especially if you are a big organization without anyone specific that deals with this stuff onsite. Tiny, easily fixed things that decrease overall happiness around the office.

        1. JSPA*

          Raffle prize for turning in problem tickets. Divide into BelleMorte’s “petty annoyances and recurrent stocking problems” vs “procedural issues that block work flow frustratingly” vs “requirements or situations that leave us PO’d for no clear reason” vs “great ideas they keep not doing, why not.”

          Every novel item gets posted with a response. Additional submissions of same get tacked on. One prize in each category is drawn from the list of novel responses (You can’t stuff the box fifty times with the same complaint, to get 50 bites at the apple). A bigger prize in each category is awarded by vote of the employees. Do this quarterly, for each category in which there are [some number] of substantive suggestions.

          So maybe the small things category is awarded every quarter at first, then drops off as problems get dealt with. The “higher” categories may take a while to ramp up / may require a certain level of trust. Allow people to have some back-and-forth. Can’t do X as a solution for Y because Reasons? They can propose Z as a soultion for Y, next week.

    11. Anono-me*

      Every couple of years we have an engagement 1/2 day. It starts with a rah rah speech and bagels, but the best part is where coworkers offer mini training sessions and schedule mini shadowing sessions.

      The hour long training sessions will be for advanced skills in things like Excel and PowerPoint and for internal programs that most coworkers use.

      The shadowing sessions can be for either a Department you might be interested in transferring to, or for Department with which you have co-ownership of process.

      I personally have found shadowing co-ownership departments to be very helpful. For example it doesn’t matter to the end result if form 173 is on top of the file or if form 398 is. But the department that does the next step in processing the forms needs a number that is very clear and easy to locate on form 173. Now everyone uses 173 is the top form.

    12. pcake*

      Free pizza for lunch and gift cards are all very nice, but nothing beats having a manager who really listens, fixes issues, doesn’t threaten or bluster and who understands their own job. Having a manager who appreciates and respects you makes all the difference at work every single day.

  22. DC*

    I got a new job this week! Thanks to AAM, I aced all their interviews, got myself a 40% raise, and am really looking forward to starting.

    But I’m still very nervous about getting my motivation back, and making sure I set and maintain work life boundaries at the new place. Any suggestions for either would be great!

    1. Bananatiel*

      I was REALLY burnt out coming from my old job and couldn’t take time between jobs for irrelevant reasons. I was SO excited to start the new job but my motivation was incredibly low going on. I was a weird rollercoaster of emotions and I think it took me longer than normal to really feel excited going into work because of it. I would say to make sure that you’re really kind to yourself and nonjudgmental of whatever you’re feeling in the first few weeks, especially if it doesn’t feel like what you’re “supposed” to feel. Doing that helped me get my work done without much issue/a lot of procrastination, especially when I coupled it with reminding myself I wanted to set a good first impression.

      1. DC*

        Thank you! This is exactly what I needed- I’m definitely worried that I’m both excited but also not excited, if you know what I mean, haha.

    2. Emily S.*

      Congratulations and good luck!

      Re: the work-life balance thing, I’d say just keep up with your hobbies, exercise, and seeing friends regularly. Get plenty of sleep too — you’ll need it!

    3. Clementine*

      How much of a break can you wrangle between the two jobs? I hate losing out on the pay, but I think it might have been a good idea for me a couple times. If you do get a break, consider something that is completely not computer or device-using–a total technology hiatus. At least that is what I would do.

      1. DC*

        I managed just under a week- and it does involve a weekend in a cabin with friends, so a full break! Glad to hear that helps!

  23. PLEASE HELP ME! Board President Calling This Morning*

    Oh dear God do I need help today. I work for a non-profit of 7 people and my boss (Dave) is an absolute tyrannt. He treats his staff absolutely awfully and belittles everyone. Well, Dave is currently on vacation and the board president (Carlos) has heard about some of Dave’s actions and behaviors and is going to be calling every single staff member to discuss THIS MORNING. I have only been in this job for seven months at this point and while I agree that Dave is horrible as a boss and a leader, I have literally talked briefly to our board president twice. I am stressed about it and have absolutely no idea what to say or what to do. Some people are telling me to talk about overall themes that could be improved on (like overly aggressive behaviors, not valuing staff time), some are telling me to try to “play dumb” and keep it as positive as possible, and others basically just want me to hang Dave out to dry. I just don’t feel like I have been here long enough to speak with that much authority. So basically, I need help as soon as possible because he is going to call this morning (no idea when) to talk.

    1. DC*

      Don’t play dumb and keep things positive. If the president is calling everyone to talk about this, it’s because they are actually trying to take responsible actions. Playing dumb won’t help anyone.

    2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Carlos is calling because there is a problem, and he needs to know how to fix it. The best thing you can do is answer his questions honestly without being unprofessional.

    3. mf*

      I would be honest (don’t play dumb) but also be frank about your misgivings: “I just don’t feel like I have been here long enough to speak with that much authority.”

    4. Heidi*

      Instead of going with broad themes, I would stick to describing very specific interactions and letting the president decide how problematic it is. If Dave is nice in his interactions with you, you can say that. But if he did behave really badly and you saw it, describe it in detail. Employee one did this, and Dave said, “Direct quote here.” I think it’s hard for a boss to understand the scope of the problem if everyone just generalizes with statements like, “He doesn’t value staff time.” Something like, “He didn’t give Sansa time off to go to her own college graduation” has much more impact. It’s also harder to defend against a very specific description.

      You could also go with the, “I just got here, so I don’t know Dave well.” And this might be the best option for you if Dave doesn’t get fired and you end up having to keep working for him.

    5. ALT*

      I say be open and honest, remind Carlos you have only been there a short while but this is what you’ve experienced. If Dave is a tyrant he doesn’t deserve any loyalty. And if you play dumb you’re just letting Dave continue to be a bad boss. Carlos is the one who has the power to make Dave either change or fire him. Answer Carlos questions and open up a conversation with him.

      I say this as someone who’s spent the past 6 years in small non-profits. If a Board member is reaching out to staff they want to make changes. And Carlos is also doing this in the right way where Dave is on vacation and won’t over hear these conversations or even possibly know about them.

    6. Daisy*

      I’ve been in a similar boat – it’s not *quite* as terrible as it seems – take a beat and breakdown what you’re comfortable doing. That’s going to be key

      You have a couple of options

      A) answer the questions you’re asked truthfully and clearly and without speculation. Don’t speak for other people or allow them to put words in your mouth. Avoid generalizations, specifics are your friend.
      B) go with the route about themes etc.
      C) be positive and brush his actions under the rug.

      I went with option A when I was in your shoes. I was not comfortable with the way things were going at work but also didn’t want to be involved with a coup which is what was attempted.
      Being overly positive also presents a risk because it leaves you open to later questions of “why didn’t so and so tell us this” and can create an unintended consequence of them questioning your judgement.

      Good luck! If you can write down some items that help you frame your thoughts (egregious or otherwise) that will be good

      Overall – focus on the truth and being factual and you’ll make it through the call.

    7. PLEASE HELP ME! Board President Calling This Morning*

      Thanks everyone. I was super nervous. My main points that I plan to bring up (from my own experiences) are that Dave is/has: bullying behaviors, overly aggressive, takes credit for the work of others and scapegoats staff for his own mistakes, never admits fault. I like the idea to include a caveat about only being here for a short time, can’t say definitively if these are constant patterns during his tenure or recent.

      I am lucky to have some great coworkers. We have all discussed what we are going to talk about and all came up with the same recurring issues. They are telling me to just do what makes me most comfortable at this point so I am thoroughly appreciative to them for being so nice.

      1. Heidi*

        Thanks for the additional detail. For what it’s worth, I would maybe downplay the taking credit for others. If he is the boss, he theoretically gets some credit for managing the work of other people and he could defend it this way. On the other hand, scapegoating someone else for your mistakes is far less defensible for a boss, so you could bring up specific examples of this, like, “Dave didn’t sign the expense report, and he told you that Sansa hadn’t given it to him, and I know that she did.”

    8. Hapless Bureaucrat*

      Stick to what you’ve observed directly and use neutral language. Describe actions or events you’ve observed not impressions. Let the board president know that, as you’ve only been here 7 months, there’s a lot you don’t feel qualified to remark on. Just as you said to us.
      Let him lead you, and if he asks open ended questions don’t hesitate to ask him to clarify.

    9. Bluebell*

      Good suggestions here. I’d echo be honest, but definitely frame everything with the fact you are new, so may not have experienced everything your coworkers have. You can cite examples, but don’t always have to name each coworker. If you came from a well regarded nonprofit before this, you could make a few comparisons, if you think the leadership at your previous position was doing things in a more professional way.

    10. OperaArt*

      Be truthful, but limit your comments to your personal experiences. Let the board president guide the conversation.
      Don’t play dumb. The president knows there are problems, and playing dumb could backfire and hurt you.
      Most important, the president is actually trying to fix this big problem. That’s fantastic. Help them, your colleagues and yourself by cooperating.

    11. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Don’t play dumb. You can all also tell the board president you’re concerned about retaliation from Dave and ask what protections there will be from that.

      1. auburn*

        Yes! This is a crucial question to ask any time you are reporting the behavior of a supervisor but doubly so when it’s the ED since there is no one higher up in the org day to day to directly supervise the ED’s behavior after these issues are brought up, which means retaliation may be harder to police. Asking at least makes sure they have register it as a concern.

    12. PLEASE HELP ME! Board President Calling This Morning*

      Thanks everybody. I am trying to keep calm and not get emotional. I wrote down my main points (categorized by theme) with specific examples. The more prepared I am the better it is I think for me and my brain (I tend to overthink). He hasn’t called anyone yet, but I will keep you all updated! Luckily there’s beer in the fridge for after

      1. LKW*

        You can admit To Carlos that you’re nervous and have not been through a process like this before. It’s a stressful conversation and Allison brings up a good point about retaliation.

        1. Lilysparrow*

          Yes, the more transparent you are about things like nervousness or uncertainty, the more you can have an authentic conversation – which will both increase your credibility and help to make you less nervous.

          If you’re trying to hide your jitters, you come across as insincere. Which won’t help the situation.

    13. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      One thing I think is worth keeping in mind, is that because you are new, your viewpoint might actually be MORE valuable to the investigation than someone who’s been there awhile.

      I was in a disaster job where my boss was put on a 60 day PIP in my first 30 days, and I was asked to provide a written statement of things she had done to interfere with my ability to do my job, as well as ways she had mistreated me. I was really nervous about doing this because I was new and didn’t want to be the person who complained. But apparently, because I was new, it was more helpful to HR to have me say she did X, Y, and Z to me and has prevented me from doing my work through A, B, C, and D. A person who’s been there awhile might have a history of performance issues, or interpersonal gripes, or connections to the previous boss, or be desensitized to the bad behavior, but a new person is new on the scene and doesn’t have that history.

      A new person is almost a neutral third party, so your corroboration of Dave’s behavior is going to be very, very helpful to the board’s investigation, because you have no reason or ulterior motive that needs to be taken under consideration.

    14. QCI*

      7 months is more than enough time to have an informed opinion of SOMEONE YOU WORK WITH EVERYDAY.
      Be honest, you’re not the one in trouble.

    15. JSPA*

      “I am finding working under Dave to be emotionally challenging. I have had a hard time reconciling his process with the attitudes and goals of our organization, and with the mutual respect and professionalism demonstrated by the other employees. However, I have not been here long. I hope you will give more weight to feedback from people who have seen Dave’s leadership process over a period of time, because I don’t know if this is his normal behavior, or a passing aberration. I know people are not always their best selves. I can’t tell if Dave’s attitude is intended as some sort of motivational technique, or if he’s truly unhappy with us and disappointed in us. I would love to make him happy, but I’m not sure if that’s a reasonable goal.”

      Mean people are mean, but hurting people can also become mean, and some people are mean because that’s how their boss treated them, and they think they need to do the same. The mean needs to stop; there are a lot of ways for that to happen. Dave may need a vacation, Dave may need therapy, Dave may need a new job, Dave may need a new relationship, Dave may need to go on the waggon. That’s not your call. But “yeah, it’s not good here now” is legit feedback.

  24. Qistina*

    DISCLAIMER

    My actual comment is posted as a reply to this comment. Before you read that, read this:

    1. I describe a scene and include some paraphrased dialogue from an episode of season 7 of Orange Is The New Black. I mention no names or identifying context and IMO it’s not a spoiler but if you’d rather not even know about the scene/dialogue, please click collapse.

    2. Trigger warning: Sexual harassment. Nothing graphic though.

    1. Qistina*

      Personally, when do YOU call out sexual harassment / inappropriate comments (about your appearance, for example, like a letter Allison answered earlier this week) in the workplace – immediately? Or do you give them a chance and let them get away with it until at least after the second time? What do you wish to do differently, if any?

      In an episode of season 7 of OITNB, an older female in a leadership role makes a comment to her young male assistant about how she “loves” watching him walk away. Without hesitation, he purses his lips and replies calmly, “That’s harassment.” To which she says, dismissing him, “Oh, you love it.” He looks away for a second, sighs, and walks out.

      Knowing her past behaviour, I’m sure that has happened before. But as that was the first time we see it on-screen, let’s pretend that that was the first time she makes such a comment to him. Her retort to him notwithstanding, I love the fact that he called it out as it happened! Most of us (me included) let our offender repeat their inappropriate behaviour until we reach breaking point before we stammer (or shout) something!

      I’ve been on the receiving end of sexual harassment and/or inappropriate comments a lot at work (all past jobs) and I still cringe when I recall how I barely reacted to any of this nonsense:

      1. The guy who tickled my feet. The below is what I wrote on my private blog about the incident:

      “I was seated on my chair with shoes off and both legs tucked beneath me. So my naked feet were sticking out from one side of my chair, in his direction. After the conversation ended he suddenly said, “You know, I have a temptation right now.” I thought it sounded a bit weird, but I asked anyway: “What?” I really shouldn’t f—ing have. Guess what he did next? He bent down and tickled my feet! My hands immediately flew to my feet to push his hands away and I simultaneously pulled my feet away as I nervously laughed a “NO!”. But my hands of course touched his, and he lingered, and he’d already managed to do what he wanted to do anyway, and I felt so dirty afterwards.”

      2. When I told my boss, he said, “You had your feet up on the chair – he probably couldn’t help himself! Anyway, you seem to attract trouble.” I asked him to clarify what he meant, and he said, “Well, this isn’t the first time this sort of thing has happened to you.”

      He has a baby now, a girl, and one day when she experiences sexual harassment as an adult (or even as a child – God forbid) – and you know she will – will his reaction be the same? I’ll never know, but I’m hoping that he feels ashamed of his former victim-blaming self.

      3. The guy who could not stop staring at my chest. He was in the middle of a sentence when I stood up from my desk and he was so hypnotised he literally stopped talking.

      4. The guy who said, “I’ve worked with you for two years and you’ve never had a boyfriend this whole time – what’s wrong with you?” I was, in fact, seeing someone at the time, but of course he didn’t know as it’s not my habit to blab about my private life at work.

      5. The male MD who said, “Well, you don’t drink, so of course you don’t understand,” after I informed him that one of our colleagues was recorded on surveillance coming back to the office with his non-work friends one weekend and drank all the alcohol in the office, trashed the pantry, and even broke a chair. He went on to say that the chair-breaker “works hard, and probably needed to de-stress. So he broke a chair – it’s the sort of thing that happens when you’re drunk”.

      AFAIK dude was never directly spoken to about it. MD just made a general announcement at standup “to take care of the office property if you come back on weekends”. Whereas *I* was looked at with disdain for doing my job as the Office Manager to care about the security and property of the office – all because I am a teetotaller. Sod’s law – HR was away when this occurred and didn’t return till a week later, which by then, she said, was “too late to say or do anything”. So she did exactly that.

      6. The guy who caressed my right ring finger as my hand was resting on my computer mouse while he sat next to me.

      7. The female COO who told me, “He says it wasn’t a caress, it was just a touch,” when we were discussing the guy above.

      The first four incidents occurred in the same workplace where I was the only woman.

      The sixth one was committed by the co-owner. I actually did approach him later to try and talk about it (rightly or wrongly) and he freaked out and flat out denied that it meant anything, and to cover his ass, went to our female COO, told her that while he did make skin-to-skin contact with me, that he “touched” my finger, not “caressed”. Since when is slowly running your finger up and down another person’s finger a “touch”???

      I was mortified. The COO’s solution was to forbid him from sitting at my desk ever again (it was an open-plan office and he was always moving around while I tended to stay put) and he complied with that rule. I was never offered an apology. He and I didn’t speak much in the next two months I worked there before I left for unrelated reasons.

      Btw, this was all before #MeToo. When #MeToo happened, I really beat myself up when I recalled the abovementioned incidents and my inadequate reactions. I’d like to think that the #MeToo movement has inspired me and empowered me to nip this sort of behaviour in the bud – either by promptly calling it out right to the offender’s face (if it’s safe to do so) or report it early and to escalate it if my initial report is ignored. But I know that when it does happen, I tend to freeze and/or rationalise it.

      And then there’s also that thing of not wanting to make a scene, or make the offender feel uncomfortable (which is plain ridiculous and really needs to stop), or more seriously, lose a job. The prospect of losing a job is very real in these situations and I respect any decision a person chooses to make in order to continue to put food on their table – as long as they know that they have to try and get out of the job at some point. But the first two “fears” are more irrational. Women especially – it’s ingrained in us to think that other people’s feelings are more important than our own, so we ignore our discomfort and outrage at our own expense.

      So I ask my question again, but a little differently: What should we do?

      If you got this far, thank you, and I appreciate any input.

      1. Purt's Peas*

        I’m sorry all those things happened to you! For the small amount it’s worth to hear it from an internet stranger, I don’t think you did anything wrong by not inventing the perfect thing to say in those situations. You’re not responsible for any of it because you ‘barely reacted’–extend the same forgiveness you’d offer others to yourself.

        Your question is tough because the answer is…well…it wouldn’t be a problem if it were easily solved, and it wouldn’t be harassment if the victim of harassment had their pick of easy options to shut it down.

        I think some of the best things you can try to do are, support other people who have been harassed; when you have authority and a bit of power, take risks with that power to help people who being harassed; as much as you can, hold other people accountable; get used to speaking directly with people so you find it doable to hold them accountable.

        1. Qistina*

          “extend the same forgiveness you’d offer others to yourself.”

          You hit the nail in the head. I definitely have a harder time forgiving myself than I do others. I always think, ‘Qistina, you should’ve known better.’ But I’m a normal person like everyone else. I get tongue-tied when I’m caught off-guard, like most people.

          And, I actually find it easier to support others too, but when it comes to myself I take a longer time to speak up.

          Case in point, last year on a vacation to Morocco, I happened to be walking behind a fellow woman traveller who was walking by herself. The guy whose shop we’d both made a brief stop at to look around, said hello to her, then asked her where she was from and whether she was travelling alone (she was). Then he flat out asked her, “Are you married?” She hesitated, and I was the one who answered for her: “You can’t ask someone that. It’s private.” She found her voice and said, “Yeah, you shouldn’t be asking me that.” The shopowner, seemingly unfazed, asked why not. I raised my voice: “Because it’s rude! Ugh! Stop asking women if they’re married! Just say hello, where are you from, and stop there!” Then she and I walked away together. I was really pleased with myself. But…the next time that question was posed to *me* (Moroccan men ask that question a lot to foreign women walking alone), I answered “no” very calmly, without trying to educate them like I did that shopowner. What’s up with that?!?!

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        1) You should go read Captain Awkward (just search, you’ll find her). Certainly the last two weeks, but the archives have a lot of fun stuff. 2019: the year of the emotional labor strike.
        2) Practice. Practice practice practice practice. Even if just in my head, it helps when the time comes to say it out loud. So go back to those events, think about what you wish you’d said, and imagine yourself saying it.
        3) Be kind to yourself and others who don’t push – as you say, there’s real economic risk to pushing back.
        4) Vote, get your friends out to vote, and look hard at Emily’s list. Getting women in positions of visible power will help normalize women standing up for themselves in the workplace.

        1. Qistina*

          I’ve found those Captain Awkward posts I think you’re talking about. Wow, that’s some good advice I need to absorb.

      3. ELWM73*

        Speak up in the moment. EVERY TIME.
        1. I given up caring about causing a scene.
        2. I am pleased this tactic is proscribed in this year’s corporate harassment training.

        1. Pippa*

          Speaking up in the moment is great, and I think sometimes we don’t do it because we think we have to find the exact wording that will (1) communicate our objections, (2) explain the reasons our objections are valid, (3) forestall a bad reaction from the offender, and (4) withstand scrutiny about our tone/professionalism/sense of humour/attitude/whatever other sexist nonsense.

          So – and I wish I’d learned this a lot earlier – I often just say “Nope.” Bob puts a hand on my lower back? “Nope” and a slight twist away. Carlos makes a joke about my love life? “Nope” in the Tina Fey shut-it-down voice. This works for an amazing range of things, including racist jokes, voices raised in anger, and many varieties of sexism. The “nope” can be delivered with a chuckle, or a firm gesture, or a biting crispness. It’s always clear, and anyone who wants to pretend not to understand has to ask for a clarification, which (to their dismay) they then receive. But it ends a lot of things right on the spot, no one can complain about the language, and you can take it farther if you feel like it or leave it at one word if you don’t.

          2. Qistina*

            Omg, nope is perfect! You’re right, we get so lost inside ourselves trying to find exact wording when “no” or “nope” is a complete sentence and VERY quickly gets the message across! Thank you for this. I’m going to remember this and learn to say no more often!

        2. submerged tenths*

          Please, look up the definition of “proscribed”. I think it is the opposite of what you meant – “prEscribed”.

      4. Tom & Johnny*

        FWIW, if you work in medicine as it sounds like you do, there is a certain deference to the head honchos / rainmakers that comes with the industry. Especially if those honchos are partners or have otherwise paid for entry into the business entity. Which I’m sure is not new information to you. The only people who can discipline such partners are other partners. And when they decline to (as they often do) the only thing that will get the attention of the practice as a whole is a lawsuit or EEOC complaint. No it shouldn’t be that way. I’m not making excuses for it or saying it’s okay. I work in a similar industry and put up with three years under an abusive manager no one would do anything about because their work was paying some of the bills.

        My point is that some of what you’re dealing with is a consequence of the industry and environment, not a consequence of you. I’m saying it’s not your fault, but in a systemic way, not in a nice, huggy, feel better way. Systemic meaning the way some industries have second-class employees who are never taken as seriously or heard out as thoroughly as the first-class employees, simply as a consequence of the way things are organized. It’s not personal, it’s them. They choose to venerate the rainmakers / honchos, so by extension they can’t acknowledge your information without challenging their belief, and their job too. Systemic meaning being the only woman in the office group and assigned the burden of carrying that. Systemic meaning being given responsibility without authority. Such as responsibility over the premises and contents, without the authority to discipline those who cause damage.

        Harassment can leave a person feeling gross, victimized, revolted, revolting, and sick at their stomach. Exactly as you said above. Anything you can do to remind yourself that these incidents did not take place in a vacuum, but occurred *within the context of systems and environments which gave the harassers the idea that it was okay to move from thought to action*, can go a long way towards reminding your spirit that it wasn’t your fault.

        1. Qistina*

          I’m not in medicine, I’ve mostly worked in tech while having nothing to do with it. I do office management, people-related stuff. But your theory is applicable everywhere, I reckon. People at the top get away with all kinds of nonsense simply because they’re at the top. They make jobs available. Nobody wants to rock the boat. It’s all just really unfortunate.

          I’m going to try harder at forgiving myself. Thank you.

    2. A Tired Queer*

      A few months ago, one of my (older, female) co-workers smacked my butt with her notebook. It happened right in front of our boss, so I felt like I had the backup to say “Why did you hit me?” immediately.

      In other situations, although it has taken me a lot of practice to get there, I’ve gotten into the habit of just saying “Wow, what?” or “Wow, that is/was really uncomfortable.” or “Wow! Please don’t do that!” with an expression of discomfited bafflement in response to inappropriate touches, looks, or comments. Thankfully it hasn’t happened a lot, and it did take a lot of practice to figure out how to get the words out past the massive block of awkward, but it’s been so worth it.

      Those scripts came from Captain Awkward, so I join other commenters in recommending her writing on this topic!

      1. MaxiesMommy*

        She may like you. Remember grade school, when a girl liked you and gave you a little shot? I wouldn’t take it as someone not liking me, they’re just being playful.

        2. Hrovitnir*

          Wow. Please understand that hitting people because you’re attracted to them is not in any way better than hitting them because you dislike them.

          Affectionately striking people is for friends who are explicitly OK with it, not for coworkers who have in no way consented to be touched at all.

        3. Qistina*

          Wow. I do hope you’re trolling. If you’re not, this is what I mean by we rationalise. We make excuses for inappropriate behaviour in adults because in grade school being hit by someone is interpreted as a sign of being liked by them. Thing is though, all of us reading this are no longer in grade school now, are we? So why are you still using that grade school excuse for fully grown adults? Please, stop.

        4. A Tired Queer*

          You know, politeness is telling me to say that “I appreciate this perspective”, but the fact is that the other commenters are right: the behavior that my coworker displayed is not appropriate for the workplace or for our age group. I would argue that it’s not even appropriate for children, but it’s definitely not OK for grown adults. Regardless of whether she likes or dislikes me, regardless of whether or not she was being “playful”, it isn’t appropriate to hit a coworker – especially not on the butt. It doesn’t matter if one is male, female, or otherwise; that kind of thing has no place in a professional environment, or anywhere else where the person one is smacking hasn’t confirmed that they are OK with it. This is especially important in the #MeToo era, when so much of the defense offered for harassing behavior has been “oh, they didn’t mean anything by it”. I hope you can take some time to think about all that. It’s pretty important.

        5. MsCarter*

          Yeah, no.
          I had to deal with a coworker hitting me on the bum when she liked my wardrobe choices last year, and she ignored me saying “no” “no, don’t do that” and eventually me escalating to my line manager who took her aside and the outcome was “she understands why you’d not like it but OK”.

          It started up again last week and I went straight back to management at the first recurrence and they’re taking it seriously. As in, going to our director to say “This is happening but it stops, now”.

          It doesn’t matter we’re both women. It doesn’t matter if she thinks it’s not inappropriate or not. It damn well is inappropriate, I hate it and she will stop.

      2. Qistina*

        What did your coworker say/do to that?

        Yes, Alison also advocates for expressing disbelief at someone’s inappropriateness and telling them to stop. I just need to be better at remembering to do this as it happens and not three days later. :-/

        I’m going to read CA more regularly now. Thanks.

        1. A Tired Queer*

          My coworker looked to our boss to rationalize and explain herself, saying things like “Oh, I didn’t use my hand, just the notebook!” and “It was just a friendly smack!”. To my utmost gratitude, my boss looked just as shocked as I felt, and immediately responded with “You did WHAT? Why would you think that’s an acceptable thing to do? Did you ask them if that was okay? Because it sounds like you didn’t, and that makes it not okay!” The two of them were off to a meeting at the moment, but when I walked by boss’s office later, I overheard her having a very stern conversation with this coworker about boundaries and appropriate workplace conduct. The coworker came by my desk later that afternoon to offer me a half apology (“I want you to know I didn’t mean anything by it, and I didn’t use my hand, just the notebook”); I told her that I didn’t want her to do it again, and that was that. Things were a little tense between us for a while, but we can work fine together now and there hasn’t been a repeat issue.

  25. MAB*

    I have a bit of an application conundrum. I missed the deadline by literally 6 hours (the website I found the job on did not have an application window) and still applied through the email provided at 6 am. I didn’t expect a response as that seems to be how my state works (I have friends who also work for the state in multiple agencies). Yesterday I saw the job posted but through a group who is aiming to get women into agriculture. Should I apply again through them, contact them and see if they can tell me if my original application was accepted or do nothing and play the waiting game?

    1. Joielle*

      Do nothing! Definitely don’t apply again – if it’s the same job, I assume the applications will end up going to the same person, no matter who posted the listing. And I really doubt an outside group would be able to tell you whether your original application was accepted.

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’d do nothing. More than once I have applied for a job like this when I technically missed the deadline to email my application, and it was not a problem. I didn’t always get the job but I was not specifically rejected for that reason.

    3. The Rat-Catcher*

      I work for a state agency too, although odds are not in your state, and I have done some of the admin work of hiring. It sounds like the deadline was midnight, but it is HIGHLY unlikely that anyone was going through applications at midnight. Probably, whoever came in the next morning put together whatever information was received from everyone. I’d say odds are high that your nake made it into the ring

  26. Bloopmaster*

    TL;DR: Anyone have advice on requesting unpaid pregnancy leave when I won’t be eligible for FMLA?

    Longer version:
    I’ve been interviewing with multiple orgs, and since I’m only 4.5 months along, it’s been possible for me to strategically hide the bump. I know that legally in the US no one can refuse to hire me simply because I’m pregnant, but that doesn’t mean they won’t so I definitely don’t want to announce this fact until I have an offer. However, if I start a new job, this August/September, I certainly won’t be eligible for FMLA when I’m due in December and will have to ask for some time off after only 3-4 months on the job (my state also doesn’t guarantee me any unpaid leave for childbirth). Assuming one of these orgs makes me an offer, what’s the best way, and the best wording, to use to inform them of my pregnancy and request a reasonable amount of time off (unpaid) to physically heal and adjust afterwards? I figure I would do this after receiving an offer but before accepting the position. Should I take this directly to HR (rather than my hiring manager)? Is there any advantage to doing this in writing? Should I explicitly negotiate for maternity leave instead of salary? Should I just approach it as “of course you are reasonable people who will allow me to do this reasonable human thing”?

    1. fposte*

      The last. “As you may have noticed, I’m expecting, and the baby’s due in December. I know you’re a small organization and FMLA doesn’t apply, but I’d like to plan for eight weeks [or whatever] out on unpaid leave before I return. Will that be possible?”

      1. DCGirl*

        FMLA doesn’t apply in her case because she won’t have been on the job long enough. She said nothing about it being a small organization.

        1. fposte*

          Good catch–then you change “you’re a small org” to “I won’t have been there long enough.”

      2. anonymoushiker*

        Or insert other language on why FMLA isn’t applicable (e.g. hasn’t worked log enough). Just noting that it’s not always that the org is too small. I agree on approaching as if it’s reasonable and they are reasonable.

    2. DCGirl*

      Unless your new employer is minuscule (under 15 employees), it is covered by the Pregnancy Discrimination Act which means that they can’t treat you any differently than any other employee who needs unpaid leave for a serious health problem. So, they would give non-FMLA-eligible Dave two months of unpaid leave for emergency back surgery they would be required to give you two months of unpaid leave for your pregnancy.

      My take would be to approach it as though they are reasonable people, but that’s just me.

      1. JSPA*

        Unless it’s a c-section with major complications, you’re not likely to be able to get the same amount of time as would be needed for minimum recommended rehab following emergency back surgery, though. Yes, it’s good to know that if you’re indeed in dire straits from the birth itself, you’d have that, but for an uncomplicated vaginal delivery, california teacher’s association (presumably pretty generous) says that 6 weeks is the norm. Short term disability insurance also uses 6 weeks as the standard, for uncomplicated vaginal delivery. (There are, t0 be sure, societies where women are back planting rice or fetching water within 48 hours.)

    3. Dr. Sarsar Mommy*

      If I were in your position, I would tell HR first and learn your rights. I would also ask HR to be in on the conversation with your hiring manager or boss next. I would think that doing it in person first, rather than in writing, would be a bit safer. I would like to say that you should assume they’re reasonable people and this is a reasonable request (honestly maternity leave is a right, but many businesses disagree). The thing I’m stuck on is your decision to let them know that you are pregnant before you accept the position. I guess you could see that as fair, but I don’t think anyone needs to know until you’re hired. Again, maybe that’s my idealism, but I think if you’ve accepted the position and then go into negotiating for unpaid leave as an employee, you might feel and actually be more secure.

      FYI I interviewed for my current position when I was 6 weeks pregnant, so much earlier along, and I didn’t tell anyone until after I started (around 14 weeks). I was in the same position where I wasn’t eligible for FMLA. I talked to HR first to be sure, and they reassured me that I was going to be able to take some leave even if it wasn’t covered my FMLA. When I told my boss, though, I did it in a one-on-one conversation, and that was a mistake. He accused me of lying to him and trying to take advantage. He said he knew he wouldn’t have been able to discriminate if he had known, but he “had to be honest” that he wouldn’t have hired me. This was my third day on the job. So, not a great start. He kind of apologized later and was supportive, but I learned the hard way that I should not tell him things without HR present, and that I have ammo if I ever want to file a complaint against him. Hopefully that isn’t what happens with you. Good luck!

      1. fposte*

        The thing is, they’re not legally required to give her time off for the baby. They’re legally required not to discriminate against her, but unless they’ve given unpaid time off to others for non-pregnancy reasons, it’s not discrimination to refuse to give it here. I think she wants to avoid a situation where she gets hired and finds out that they can’t keep the job for her if she takes time off in December.

        I’m glad that, as DCGirl pointed out, it’s not a small org, because there’s likelier to be precedent of leave whether FMLA or not, so this is likely to be just considered a normal part of business.

    4. Trogdor the Burninator*

      Somewhat similarly, I’m interviewing while waiting to adopt. So there’s no bump but there’s the unpredictable possibility of becoming a parent during the first year on a new job. Haven’t gotten an offer yet but I plan on, once an offer is made, negotiating for paid family leave. And even if it’s a place too small to have to follow FMLA, that doesn’t mean they might not offer paid leave as a benefit (after all FMLA only promises UNPAID leave). It’s a dealbreaker for me – if I can’t have the promise of some paid leave I won’t take the offer. Anyone else have experience with that negotiating?

      1. fposte*

        Do you know what’s standard or common in your field for parental leave, and would what you’re asking for fall within it? I’d style my negotiation accordingly. I’d say this differs from the FMLA question because FMLA is so standard and paid parental leave so not (sigh) that you really need to know whether you’re asking for a purple unicorn or the equivalent of extra pens.

        1. Trogdor the Burninator*

          Ha! I love that analogy. Purple unicorns or pens. Well, I work in nonprofit land, where the only thing that’s standard is following up a low salary offer with “we ARE a nonprofit, so….”

          But I think I can use your advice to find out what the leave policy is and work from there. Do they offer FMLA? If yes, would they let me take leave of any kind if an adoption happened before the first year? That’s a must-have because I could get a call literally any day about a baby. Do they offer paid family leave? If yes, same question maybe – can they waive the probationary period or shorten it?

          But it really is a dealbreaker for me – financially I’m better off staying in my current job, where I can take some paid leave, than a new job – even with a higher salary – where I’d be in a bind if an adoption placement came through.

          1. Clisby*

            Yes, I worked with a woman who had 3 weeks’ notice that she was going to be able to adopt. I think she was just asking to switch to part-time for a few months, and the company said no. She quit.

            (Love your Trogdor the Burninator username).

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just approach is as “of course you are a reasonable person who will allow me to do this reasonable human thing.”

      If they want to make a big deal and make it all about “the letter of the law”, then that’s fine too. That will show them for who they are and that you don’t belong at that company.

      Around here we’d be fine with it, if we liked you to extend an offer, we’d make accommodations for leave. Since it’s something we can plan for in advance and what’s the difference between you needing it at month 4 and month 12, not that much, then you have more on your plate to redistribute than at month 4. At least you’d get the chance to bond and train for 4 months, you know?

      Laws are fantastic and I support them fully but really, they’re so bare bones and don’t do that much in the end unless you have a solid case and evidence. There’s still a lot of relying on common decency of humans involved.

    6. Schnoodle HR*

      Even if you’re not eligible for FMLA due to tenure, you still have the ADA and the Pregnancy Discrimination Act rooting for you. Also…most companies will let you take some leave for pregnancy, and hopefully follow the FMLA 12 week rule if you want it.

      If you have Short Term Disability as well, you’ll have that putting you out (and paying you) for 4 weeks for a normal birth, maybe up to 6 for C Section (the latter has been less and less common, I had a C Section and they put it at 4 weeks now, used to be 6).

      Hopefully this will be a civil discussion and easy. Don’t assume they’ll be aghast, babies happen! Remember you’re also protected to pump afterwards if you choose to do that.

      I know at my company, even if tenure hasn’t been met for FMLA, they follow FMLA anyway.

      1. DCGirl*

        Short-term disability is not a form of leave; it’s how you get paid while you are on leave that would otherwise be unpaid.

  27. Some clever pun*

    Hello wise and wonderful commentariat! I need help brainstorming possible career changes. My current career (charity retail manager) suits me in a lot of ways but my biggest problem is that while I’m competent at it, I don’t think I’ll ever be really good. It nags at me that I’m settling for just ‘ok’.

    The most important aspect for me is that I have the constitution of a border collie: I get bored super easily without constant change of activities and locations. Something with both desk work and frequent site visits would work well for me (I’m thinking estate agent for example). At my current job I travel between a few different locations that I support and the work is quite physical, which also suits me.

    Can anyone recommend career options with this sort of variety?

    1. Incantanto*

      Shift into training or health and safety as a specialty? Health and safety managers in industry get a lot of travel and time on site as well as desk time.

        1. Incantanto*

          Yeah, general mid level documentation based jobs are probably a reasonable side shift for you, and things like H and S, QA, maybe sales get travel

    2. irene adler*

      Auditing. Not the bookkeeping kind.
      Auditing of quality systems. Businesses- like biotech, pharma- have auditors who travel to different sites (their suppliers, divisions) to audit quality systems. And they also audit their own sites. So you’ll have travelling and you’ll have different projects at a regular basis (auditing a supplier for a quality problem related to their product, then auditing a manufacturing division for process improvements. ).

      Visit ASQ.org to learn about auditing.

    3. 867-5309*

      Event, trade or conference management. You’ll do strategic planning, creative brainstorming, logistical execution and onsite at events.

  28. Poptart*

    We have an all office retreat on Tuesday. We just got the specifics about it today. It includes indoor and outdoor volunteer opportunities that are mandatory in the AM. Reading AAM has me shuddering about how it’s been handled, though the actual opportunities aren’t terrible.

    1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      Sounds delightful (sarcasm font). Hopefully everyone is able to participate or have worked out accommodations in advance. Are you thinking of following up with organizers to share your concerns about accessibility?

      1. Poptart*

        They actually have options for all accessibility levels. It’s the timing people are up. in. arms. about. We knew a retreat was coming but today is when we learned it included volunteering.

        Lots of whispering, lots of closed-door meetings. Some refusals. I’m glad it’s Friday.

        1. JSPA*

          If they’re paying for your work hours, I’m pretty sure ou can be volun-told what to do for those hours (so long as there are disability acommodations).

          Most people have been complaining here about weekend days without pay/evenings without pay / day-off-but-not-really / I was promised days off to volunteer, but not told that some of them would be sucked up by volun-told duties / etc.

          If the organizations upset you, that’s a different issue. But “your job today is something different from usual, which you already knew because it’s the retreat, and we could be asking you to do trust falls or watch powerpoints or fire walk, so stuffing envelopes isn’t so bad”? That seems fair enough.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, Poptart’s employer clearly doesn’t know what the word “voluntary” means.

  29. Incantanto*

    Do people have any tips for dealing with the effects of massive economic uncertainty on their job?

    I’m in chemical research and manufacturing and the current UK political climate is hitting us hard. Chemistry takes a long time to bring to market and not knowing what our regulatory status will be in three months is a strain on the business, so every decision is slow atm.

    1. Mazzy*

      All I can offer is to be sure to have an emergency fund, or have one in the works, even if it’s small. This is especially important if you own a home or are in a cyclical industry

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Brexit stash and make plans to move to Ireland. That’s about all I’ve got right now. If we end up with the worst possible scenario I doubt that my industry will survive for very long. In a bonfire of regulations and a race to destroy and snatch up as much as possible for short-term, disaster capitalist profits I doubt that polluter-pays archaeology will last.

      Have you put out any feelers on moving to another company with offices elsewhere?

      1. Incantanto*

        This company does have offices in other countries, but most of them are continental EU or the states. States is not a work life I’d be that happy with and I’m about to lose EU citizenship cos of this crap. I tried applying to jobs in germany when I got this job but nobody was even slightly biting.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Are you concerned that Brexit (I assume) is making it difficult to do your job due to slow decisions and so on – or worried about job security?

      1. Incantanto*

        Both. The uncertainty is starting to stress out both any relations we have with customers, leading to slow decisions and removal of a lot of the more blue sky research that was interesting, in order to start hunkering down, and the fact I’m the newest so first back out is stressing me more than I realised it would.

        Add that to the fact I’m a young remainer surrounded by old leave voters with long tenure at the company and paid of houses who keep going “oh it will be fine,” and I’m really struggling not to get into a serious political argument at work. Any advice on dealing with that greatly appreciated.

    4. JSPA*

      Benelux? If there’s still time to get residency? Or assume your company will be doing a buyout (in one or the other direction) to have a foothold / market access there?

        1. Jaid*

          JSPA was using shorthand…

          “a collective name for Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg, especially with reference to their economic union”

        2. JSPA*

          Dutch news sources (and to some degree, the BBC) suggest quite a number of English / UK firms are forming partnerships, buying or being bought by firms in the Netherlands (or Belgium, but English is practially a national language in the Netherlands, and the multiple layers of government and the interlaced language zone borders in Belgium render the situation extra confusing and probably less agile?).

          That way, patents, materials and to some degree employees can be strategically relocated to or from the continent while still being paid “at home.” Or intellectual rights stay on one side of the border, while production happens on the other. Or something like that. I suppose they’re doing that in part because nobody knows what’s going to happen without a “backstop” in case of “no deal,” so Ireland is a more ambiguous option than it might otherwise be.

          (BTW, I’m looking for scrupulously dispassionate terminology here, so as not to betray my rather firm feelings or violate the politics ban; please allow some latitude if I don’t quite succeed, as we don’t talk about in in as much depth in the US as you presumably do, there.)

          Quite a few people seem to be trying to cement their residency rights (or even switch citizenship), but I don’t know if that window is now closing / closed. My guess is that anything science-adjacent that’s also even minimally academia-adjacent will have loopholes for fairly unlimited R&D or specialist type visas, but…who knows. (That last presumption is not at all Brexit-specific, it’s from dealing with visas for conferences and collaborations elsewhere in the world.)

          I’m guessing that if import of essential materials is slowed, research and early development in the UK will still largely stay in the UK (using stockpiled materials you have) while commercial-scale development may shift to a dutch subsidiary or Dutch parent company (under regulations similar to what you’re using now, as they’re still going to be EU).

          (The “Lux” part = not relevant, but “BeNe” would’be been even more confusing.)

  30. Fabulous*

    What do y’all do on days (or weeks) where you don’t have a lot of work?

    I finished my last project on Monday morning. I had a few smaller things pending, so I did them, but I had basically nothing to do the rest of Monday and Tuesday. My supervisor is away at a conference all week, but she was able to send me one more project to help her with. Another co-worker sent me a project yesterday but it only took a few hours to complete. I’ve been dragging out Sup’s project for the last 3 days, did some HR related tasks, and also some personal development research. I’m out of ideas short of online shopping!

    I know I will be getting some more projects next week, but aside from reorganizing our server folders, I’ve got nothing until then. What do you do to keep busy?

    1. geiger*

      If I’ve finished all my projects and no one has anything they need help with I either learn some work-related skills online or I work on automating reoccurring tasks.

    2. Mbarr*

      I read AAM… Then I run out of AAM and bang my head against the wall out of boredom.

      But legit, if I’m trying to do something work related, I watch training courses on LinkedIn (I get free access to them through my public library). Lately I’ve been looking at online forums related to my job to see what issues people encounter and how the community responds to them.

      1. SezU*

        Read AAM, Dear Abby and all the other advice columns I can find (they are my vice). Then I listen to podcasts.

        As with you, if I feel it should be work related, I do some online training, read periodicals or articles related to my work. Or just clean up old files.

        I know that this current lull won’t last, so I don’t want to create a big project for myself just to have it get derailed when the Next Big Thing comes along…. soon.

    3. Not me... the other guy*

      I have a ‘work hobby’. I ended up admining a bunch of Sharepoint sites. So I save up all the requests that I get for improvements for my slow time. I also then use that time to research and try new functionality (have a list of those too) as well as cleanup and other things.

      I also keep a list of “want to dos” and I work on those. These are improvements or whatevers that aren’t mission critical that I generally don’t have time for.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      Sorting email, cleaning up projects, and concatenating various notes into sadly neglected documentation take up a lot of my time, but I also try to figure out what I want to work on. List projects I think would be useful, figure out skills I want to gain, figure out tools that would be helpful, then organize them into workable lists.

    5. Gwen*

      Read/keep up to date on local or industry news. Clean out my inbox. Clean my actual desk. Read articles/listen to podcasts that are relevant to my work tasks or things I would like to learn more about. Make notes of things for my performance review (we have a system we’re supposed to put notes into year round on goals and projects).

    7. Emily S.*

      I read a lot of news articles and blogs. Lots of food/cooking related ones, plus gardening stuff. I also like advice columns such as Ask Amy, which I think is great. Also the New Yorker cartoons are online free, that’s something fun every week.

    8. Gumby*

      I work in a sciency field so I can totally claim that the 3 hour trip down the xkcd / what if? rabbit hole was work related…

    10. nekosan*

      1. Documentation. Write out all the details possible about some task. In the future, if anyone asks questions, you have something ready-made to point them at.
      2. Learn new skills. Such as, “how do you do this automatically in Excel?” (Often, it’s something like “Oh, Janet does X using tool Y. Y would be something useful to learn.”)
      3. Maybe the same as above, but automation. If there is some annoying picky task I have to do, I try to figure out a way to automate it – auto fill data, error check, merge data, split data, whatever.

  31. MOAS*

    How do you ask the people who report to you if you’re doing a good job without coming across as insecure or needy?

    It all started with a former who recently left and left a review online and I am wondering if one of their comments is about me. They were never on my team but I was senior to them–we had a mutual interest and would have friendly conversations about that hobby from time to time. When I became manager I learned from my peers that they were underperforming and after conversations, were put on the PIP.

    Now some of their comments were legitimate and I sympathized to a point but what got me was where they said one of the managers was not very intelligent, a failure in past leadership positions, a burden, and didn’t deserve to be there. I thought ti was about me b/c they mentioned past positions.

    Others who read this and were close to the employee said that that specific complaint was about their direct managers, but I can’t shake that it was about me even though– I was on good terms with this person and they were happy I was promoted.

    Whats making me feel the most awkward — and I know this may not be rational — is that this person is bffs with people on my team. I like and trust my team, and I want to promote one of them to a higher level. However…..after this I am worried. I am not treating my team any differently, but I am a little wary (and they will still be promoted, that’ wont be affected). I have gotten feedback from my manager, and I LIKE to think that my team is happy with me but I am not sure how to ask about the latter.

    I know that as a manager, it’s common for people to not like the person in that position, and I should not take it personally. However, this feels really personal. The employee on my team has not given me any reason to distrust him and my feelings will not impact how I treat them.
    But for some reason, I am just really worried. and about what, I don’t know.

    1. fposte*

      “How do you ask the people who report to you if you’re doing a good job without coming across as insecure or needy?”

      Short answer is that you don’t. You can’t look to them for validation. You can check in more with your own manager, and you can make sure you’re asking your staff if they have what they need to do for their job and giving room for the answer, and encouraging them to grow whether it means they leave or stay. But this sounds more about reassurance than information, and, ironically, turning to your staff for that is likely to make them less happy.

      You can control what you do. You have no control over they feel.

      1. MOAS*

        That’s what I thought — turning to them may backfire. I didn’t think there was a distinction but now that you point it out, you’re right. As a manager, I DO want to know what I can do to make sure they have a good experience here. My own manager does give me feedback. My team is 2 in house and 3 remotes, the remotes are in their 2nd week with us. The in house team is doing well and the new people are promising. I guess I just want it so that whenever someone moves on, they will have good memories of us, and won’t speak about me like people talk about horrible managers. I don’t want to be horrible person/manager

        1. carrots and celery*

          You can’t control how someone feels when they move on or whether their memories are good or bad. It sounds like you have a lot of insecurity about all of this, to the point that it’s making you over worry. Perhaps talking with a therapist might help pinpoint why some of these things are impacting you so significantly?

          1. MOAS*

            I am seeing someone thanks, but I also don’t think I need to go to therapy to figure out why I don’t want to be a horrible manager that people talk about here all the time?

            1. The Other Dawn*

              Not wanting to be a horrible manager is a good thing and something we should aim for; however, taking things personally or seeing issues where there’s no evidence of any is a separate issue. That’s not “I don’t want to be a horrible manager.” That’s insecurity. I think that’s what carrots and celery is getting at, and I agree. As I said below, I say this as someone who has a direct report who says/feels exactly the same things you’re describing and she’s told me she has self-confidence issues.

              1. MOAS*

                Oh I get it now. Yeah, I do have insecurities. I’m just thinking of what happened with the former employee who left that review. They were never under me but I was senior to them; their first 3 managers didn’t really manage them, and the last ones who did put them on a PIP and they quit. So, it was kind of like a volcano bubbling. And I want to avoid that happening. But my team is pretty good, so I want to make sure we continue to have a good working relationship from the start

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  You’re personalizing an experience that had nothing to do with you. As you stated, you didn’t manage the departed employee and you guys were on good terms when she left. There’s nothing in what you wrote that indicates that the review had anything to do with you, so the fact that you’re this concerned about it is, well, kind of concerning and why people are saying you need to take a step back and chill (and talk to a professional).

                  As everyone has said – you can’t control how others think of you. I have only liked maybe three or four managers in my entire working life, but that doesn’t mean the rest of my managers were all awful (they weren’t – I only had two of those) and I hated them, it just meant I didn’t connect with them on a personal level. It happens. The fact that you read this site and you seem open to wanting to do a good job leads me to believe you’ll be fine as a manager, so relax.

            2. carrots and celery*

              That’s not what I meant. You seem to be obsessing over an issue that has absolutely nothing to do with you and then turning it around and making it about yourself and panicking. The things you want to change – make sure everyone who leaves has good memories, that they never think of you negatively, that someone anonymous comment isn’t about you, etc. – aren’t really things that are in your power to change.

              Being a good manager is completely different to some of the concern you’ve outlined here, which are more personal issues than work related issues. It’s a little concerning that you’re working yourself up over a comment that you don’t even know was about you, and asking if you can seek validation from your employees to ensure that they never feel that way about you.

              It’s making a problem where there isn’t one.

            3. Eukomos*

              You say that logically it probably isn’t you, other people in the office think it isn’t you and in fact is specifically another person, and yet you can’t shake the worry. Being worried about being a good manager is rational, but being unable to shake the fear that a comment that manifestly is not about you could somehow be you anyway is totally worth bringing up with your therapist. It seems like it’s really making you unhappy, and that’s all that’s necessary to make it worth your therapist’s time.

            4. JSPA*

              1. Why am I stuck on the idea that I’m the one they’re talking about?
              2. Actually why am I stuck on the idea that they’re talking about anyone?
              3. Let alone, “all the time”?
              4. If someone’s unhappy with me, don’t they have the right to feel that?
              5. If they’re temporarily unhappy with me, why should I let that affect me?
              6. If I’m giving them the ability to give me feedback, and they choose not to, why might I feel obligated to push for it? Or even, allowed to push for it? or for that matter, justified in pushing for it?
              7. I’m the manager. I’m following a reasonable path. I supervise reasonable people. If there were to be some once-in-a-blue-moon personality conflict, why do I feel I should try to patch it over, or failing that, to judge myself–or for that matter, them–rather than letting people choose to move on, if we’re a bad match?
              8. do I think that my people’s success, in their broader career path, is primarily my job, rather than primarily their job (with me facilitating by promoting where qualified, praising where justified, and encouraging broadly)? Why would I do that?
              9. How would I feel if my boss turned me attitude onto me?
              10. is there something I am looking for from my boss that I should ask for, that I’m trying to do for my people (with no indication that they want it)?
              11. Am I conflating being a good manager, being a good friend, and being a good person?
              12. Is “being a good manager” something I aspire to, or am I trying to get to “successful manager” via the “good person” and “good friend” routes?
              13. if so, what might be the pitfalls of using those alternate routes, and could they actually backfire, or make me more problematic as a manager, than just prioritizing “good manager’ up front?
              14. what are my “tells” when I shift into one vs. another version of “being a good______________”? Can I learn to notice them, and substitute some other behavior or thought pattern?
              15. Do I feel bad when I choose to do [fill in essential manager-ish priority] over [fill in some other “good person” priority]? If so, is this a gut-level thing, a learned belief, a philosophical issue?

              Some of these are more CBT, some of these are more talk therapy…could be your therapist would not be a good sounding board for all of them, in which case, some other therapist might be. It’s like cars, sometimes you need bodywork, sometimes you need a new tie bar, sometimes your ignition switch is funky, and sometimes you just need new wiper blades, and you can go to different people for each of those things.

        2. fposte*

          More broadly, I think it’s okay to use this moment to reflect on your own managerial practices–do you want to regularize more input from your reports somehow? How do you support your staff, and are there areas you’d like to do more in? Those would be helpful whether this comment was referring to you or not, and they don’t have to happen immediately–they’re about improving your managing practice, not dealing with a response to an online comment.

          1. MOAS*

            More broadly, I think it’s okay to use this moment to reflect on your own managerial practices–do you want to regularize more input from your reports somehow? How do you support your staff, and are there areas you’d like to do more in? Those would be helpful whether this comment was referring to you or not, and they don’t have to happen immediately–they’re about improving your managing practice, not dealing with a response to an online comment.

            —

            Yes this is really helpful. Thank you.

    2. Sparkelle*

      Ask, “Is there anything I can be doing to better support you in being successful in your role?” However, be prepared that if what you hear is something reasonable and actionable, you need to do it. If it involves advocating up the chain for them (within reason) then you need to do it.

    3. Kathenus*

      It can be hard for people to be honest about this, but sometimes you can draw out good information with specific framing of the question. First, though, is to make sure that you are always modeling an environment where you are open to feedback, positive and constructive. And make sure if you are going to specifically ask for open feedback that you take it positively, no matter what it is, so that people feel safe and comfortable being honest.

      For framing the question, it’s sometimes helpful to ask people to give examples of two things that they think are your strengths, and two areas where you can improve. This specific request for both positive and constructive feedback gives people the ‘freedom’, for lack of a better word, to actually say what they think could be better. And asking for a specific number also can help people versus it being more vague or open ended.

      And when you do get feedback, take some time to digest it before taking any actions or responses. Then you can build a lot of respect from your team if you follow up with them later and say something like – ‘thanks for providing the feedback on my management, I’ve taken your information to heart and here are one or two specific things I’m going to be working on to continue to improve’. Ask for their help by continuing to give feedback on how well you’re doing in these specific areas, both in the moment and with some follow ups later.

      Good on you to want to pursue this, but try to think of it as a good way to open communication and continue to improve in your skills, not just as a way to deal with this specific situation and worry you have. It’s a skill that can help you for years to come if you get to the point where teams feel comfortable having open dialogues in this area. Good luck.

      1. carrots and celery*

        Most people are going to be really uncomfortable giving their managers areas where they can improve, though. I’ve had managers ask it of me and my coworkers and no one was ever comfortable being honest, even when the manager in question was generally positive or open to feedback.

        Ask for their help by continuing to give feedback on how well you’re doing in these specific areas, both in the moment and with some follow ups later.

        I disagree with this. It’s going to create a weird dynamic if a manager keeps telling their employees updates on their situation or keeps asking for additional feedback about the issues they’re trying to improve. Employees should recognize the changes by a manager’s actions, and verbal follow ups could quickly get annoying and actually lead into the neediness and validation OP is trying to avoid. I’d start avoiding any boss who acted like this since it’s not on me to manage their issues and provide them with constant feedback on how they’re progressing. That’s for their manager to handle.

        1. fposte*

          Yes, I agree. It’s different if it’s part of a company-wide protocol, with structures and formats all in place, like a regular 360 review, but this isn’t that; this would be an individual effort and it’s born out of a personal discomfort, which shouldn’t become a staff problem to solve.

    4. Nous allons, vous allez, ils vont*

      Other people have responded with some good advice, but I’d like to add this:

      It sounds like you’re taking this review quite personally without any confirmation that it’s about you. As others have said, being a manager means that not everyone is going to like you. But in this specific scenario, you don’t know for certain that you were criticized at all. And even if you were, unless your direct reports or supervisor are bringing up issues with your managerial style; or your team is struggling/disharmonious/underperforming/etc., a negative online review is not something you should be focusing your energy on.

      1. MOAS*

        You’re right, there’s no confirmation it’s me–it’s my own insecurity. I definitely do not want this to negatively impact my team, so I’m hoping just talking it out is nipping it in the bud.

        I was moved up to this position in May so I consider myself still very new to this all. My team is 2 people; they are doing well and get along. The team’s numbers are good and I’ve tried to show that I’m very receptive to feedback and helping them with what I can.

        I think I just needed to talk/write my thoughts out to channel this energy productively.

        1. Nous allons, vous allez, ils vont*

          Talking things out can be very helpful! You just want to be careful that you’re not obsessing over/ fixating on things. But I understand that it is easy to feel insecure when you’re in a new job title, especially if you’ve never had managerial experience before

      2. MOAS*

        I know I shouldn’t take anything personally but when someone who was friendly to you might be saying you’re an idiot — it’s hard not to take it personally. My team is not like that, at least I don’t think they are.

        1. Natalie*

          might be

          Aside from having fixated on it, you really don’t have any strong reason to think this is about you at all.

        2. Nous allons, vous allez, ils vont*

          “but when someone who was friendly to you might be saying you’re an idiot”

          But again, you don’t know this was about you. There is no evidence to indicate that. They MIGHT be saying you’re an idiot. Or they might be talking about someone else entirely. Or maybe it IS about you but they were just frustrated that day and wrote something they didn’t mean. Or someone else entirely wrote it. There a ton of possibilities that don’t include them and everyone on your team secretly resenting you.

        3. JSPA*

          Eh, everyone’s an idiot in some way, looking from the right (or wrong) angle.

          If you feel you’re a terrible fit for a particular job–if your job is always rubbing up against something that’s hugely harder for you than it is for most people, and it’s not making good use of the ways you’re talented–then you have to decide whether it’s worth putting in outsided efforts to work your way, by brute force, to a place where you can adequately produce a reasonable facimile of average competence in that thing. Could be yes, could be no. (Also depends whether another job is likely to fit better, or not.)

          But, “this person’s weaknesses and my weaknesses add up to them not feeling I’m competent in some way” is just…something that happens. You could be the best manager ever, and this would still happen. But your job isn’t paying you to be “the best ever.” They’re paying you to do the job decently. Bonus for also being a decent person, in the process. But straining for evidence of perfection is just going to run you and your people ragged.

    5. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I don’t think you can directly ask them about your performance, but at your 1:1s, you can certainly ask them if there is anything they need that they haven’t been getting from you, or if they have any concerns they’d like to address with you. Now, because of the power dynamic, they might not be completely honest with you, but if you’re a good listener and haven’t violated their trust before, they might open up.

    6. Denise*

      I think it’s beneficial for managers to at least ask themselves if they are doing well. Your higher ups aren’t going to know what it’s like to be managed by you.

      At the same time, it sounds like you’re approaching this from a place of insecurity and seeking validation that you really are good enough because you’re worried that you aren’t. (If you weren’t at least somewhat concerned that the comments from the former employee validly described you, you wouldn’t be worried about them, especially since you don’t know that they are about you at all). Approaching your direct reports from a place of self-doubt isn’t going to work.

      But if you do want to ensure that you’re doing well as a manager, just focus on asking your team if they would change anything about the team dynamic or if they need anything more or different from you to do their work well. Basically make it about the job and about what your reports need from you, but not about yourself.

    7. MOAS*

      Ok so super quick update haha. My boss & I actually sat down with the person on my team that we’re planning to promote. We had actually planned to talk to him before this happened b/c our evals are taking way too long and we wanted to let him know preemptively that we appreciate him. It went well I think. Alot of the things said here were said in the meeting–if ther’es anything that we can do here to help them do their job better, please don’t hesitate to come to us. And there is track record to prove this. We scheduled regular check-ins and made it very clear that we are always here to listen to their feedback & concerns, and that we want him to be transparent with us. He was really appreciative, and all in all I think it was a productive and good conversation.

      1. JSPA*

        That’s great! Sounds like the process works. That should get you (and the team members, and everyone else) over any momentary crises of confidence. Or overheard trash-talk, for that matter.

    8. The Other Dawn*

      I think you can ask this of your team only in certain circumstances. For example, at my previous company I went through a leadership training program. One of our tasks was to get feedback from our direct reports. It was optional, but I love feedback regardless of whether it’s good or bad so I jumped right in. I asked my senior person to talk with the others (there were five direct reports total) and to put together something. I told her it can be completely anonymous and they don’t have to participate if they’re uncomfortable. What I got back was a Word doc with their comments, no names attached. They were great, constructive comments. I took them to heart and made some improvements, which helped them and made me feel good about myself. But the only reason I asked them for feedback was because it was an assignment as part of my training.

      Another instance in which I think it’s OK to ask is when things are not going well and you’re just can’t figure out what’s going on.

      I think asking when there’s no evidence of any issues (and there doesn’t appear to be) runs the risk of making you appear very insecure in your role as a manager and you could undermine yourself.

      My advice here is to work on your self-confidence. I mean REALLY work on it. I say that as someone who has felt quite insecure at times over the years, and as someone who has a direct report with self-confidence issues (she is also a manager). It totally undermines her at times and as a result, people don’t take her seriously and tend to try to work around her because they don’t want to manage her feelings–and they shouldn’t have to manage them. We’ve had some good talks and I’ve offered to help where I can, but those changes need to come from within her. It’s not really something that can be accomplished through a one-day seminar. It can help, but this is something for which therapy would be useful and probably and more appropriate solution. Self-confidence, to some extent, comes from experience, too.

      1. MOAS*

        I liked how it was framed above — keep communication open, be receptive to feedback etc. I was hired to do a job of managing my team, not the other way around. I’m not going around asking my team “hey am I doing good?” but I know there was a professional way to frame this and that’s why I asked here. I’m glad I did.

        I do like what your company did and I do wish our company would do some kind of management training for new managers. We frequently promote from within–when new people begin (in entry or mid levels) we provide them with a very thorough training. It would be a good idea to have something similar for managers who are newly promoted.

      1. fposte*

        That’s an appropriate series of questions for your own manager, but I wouldn’t ask it of my staff, at least not in those words. Managing isn’t just doing what your staff wants, and this frames it as if it is. It’s fine to ask if there are processes and practices they find valuable or those they have questions about or those that they think might be improved on, but a straight out “What do you want me to do?” question isn’t for reports to answer, and it’s a pretty awkward thing to be asked by a manager.

    10. 867-5309*

      When I wanted feedback, I asked my manager to do a skip-level with my direct reports. Usually around annual review time. It was a natural forum for it and my manager could share general themes with me. I also made it clear to my team that I wanted us to have a feedback-rich culture, which meant everyone should be able to share constructive feedback with each other, including me.

    11. JSPA*

      If you gave in to your fear, you’d perhaps risk becoming the sort of manager that was being talked about. But you already know you’ll proceed by promoting the people who deserve to be promoted, and by trusting them to make good decisions. That should be the core reassurance that you in fact are at no risk of being that sort of manager. While you’re at it, staying away from Glass Door might be smart; you’re not doing yourself any favors by reading, if you’re in a state where you’re tempted to project, fill in blanks, or take things personally.

      Plenty of people are BFF’s with folks whom they love, but whose failings they understand all too well. Even if the line was about you, that’s a big, old “So What?”

      Someone who was not good at their job was let go. Someone who likes them a lot is still there. Fine–So What? That happens all the time.

      I’ve worked with lovely people who were not great at that particular job, and people have worked with me at jobs where I was not particularly great. We did plenty of bellyaching at the time (blessedly before blogs and job reviews were a thing). We did not try to shaft each others’ boss, out of some misplaced sense of loyalty. We didn’t generally think ill of them, either.

      I can think of a couple of people I would trust with my life, but I would not hire to build a porch or write code for me (their respective jobs). Those things are, and should be, separable. Keeping that separation firmly in mind may help. Keeping people in a job they do badly isn’t great for them, either; you keep and promote people out of decency and out of appreciation for their abilities, not because of who likes whom. And you’re allowed to be pissy when fired, even if you’re not the best person for the job.

      And FWIW, if you do eventually leave or get fired, this will almost certainly not be because you did not create adequate personal connections or manage your team members’ emotions or make them all like you personally.

    12. MOAS*

      Thank you everyone for the responses <3. I got slammed with work later in the afternoon so didn't get much chance to come back lol. I know I was fixating on this too much but it helped to talk it out and get the feedback here.

  32. Tigger*

    Hi guys! If you have been giving advice to me these past few weeks because I was so burnt out cause my boss has been out of office during the busy season thank you! He is out again today because the weather is nice. I have finally caught up on most things (pulling 12 hour days! Yay!) but my boss told me that he and other leaders at the main office are disappointed in me for not stepping up enough during his vacations and other time away. This doesn’t ring true to be based on conversations I had with the other leaders and the fact that I was given a raise based on my performance on my 1 year anniversary in June. Is there a tactful way to ask the other leaders if this is true?

      1. SezU*

        Could you frame it as coming from you (not from boss)? Reach out and ask if there are any areas where a different level of assistance or coverage would have been helpful during this time? You can make it more about the position (yours) than the person (you). Sort of an after action type email?

        1. JSPA*

          yep-

          “Hi all, it was a busy July–now that the mad scramble is over, and the essentials are covered, I wanted to check if there’s anything I’ve lost track of that’s at risk of falling through the cracks. Any updates or feedback would also be great. Thanks.”

          If you’re as great as you sound, this may end up as fishing for back pats (but that’s OK, you’re doing it for the right reaons). I concur with the likelihood that this is a big joke / boss is impressed / you’ve got a mini attack of imposter syndrome / it’s all good. But if there’s anything left unfinished, this should roust it out.

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      Are you certain his comment wasn’t a joke? Like funny because it’s so obviously not true?

      I think I would send email to whichever leader you feel most comfortable with and just say, “Before he left, Boss made a comment that made me think there might be concerns about my performance. He’s not in today, and I wondered if you’d have time for a quick phone conversation with me. If there’s something I need to be doing differently I definitely want to know about it and address it immediately.”

  33. Pamplemeow*

    How do y’all deal with telemarketing/solicitation calls at work?

    I work for a small business with 12ish employees. I recently got roped into being the person who answers the main office phone (which deserves its own post at a later date) and I’m already tired of these calls. I’d say anywhere from 50% – 70% of daily calls are either robocalls (easy enough to deal with, since I just hang up) or solicitors (much more annoying to deal with, since I don’t want to be rude but also don’t want to waste time talking to them).

    How do you deal with solicitors and let them know that we don’t want new internet/phones/whatever without the conversation going on too long or being rude? Also, is it normal to get so many robocalls?

    1. Jasmine*

      I engage them in increasingly silly conversations. A few years ago we had a spate of a few dozen a day from some scammy energy company, and I starting telling them that I was doing a poll of telemarketers’ favourite animals. Zebras won. Of course, there was also the time that I snapped and asked the guy if his mum was proud of what he did for a living. He hung up, and then 5 minutes later someone phoned back and said that I’d made his colleague cry. I pointed out that maybe they should take me off the list like I’d asked and I wouldn’t be able to do it again. It worked, for a while…

      1. Thatlady*

        I understand the compulsion to do something like this, I do. But I think it’s important to remember that on the other end of the phone is an actual person just trying to do their job. Yes, robocalls are annoying. Ask to be taken off the list and either keep repeating that or hang up if they call again. Makes no sense to be rude to someone who is just trying to make a living.

        1. Makes sense to me.*

          Sorry up-front for all the words. I feel *very* strongly about this. : )

          Their choice to “make a living” by trying to scam me/my business out of legitimately earned money or information or time doesn’t exactly compel me NOT to be rude. In fact, it kind of does the opposite.

          * they will tell me I have a warrant out for my arrest. They are banking on an irrational emotional reaction from me that will work in their favor.
          * they will tell me this is the LAST CHANCE to renew my car insurance (?)
          * they threaten me with fake “debt”. Uh, no?
          * they HANG UP ON ME! Before talking! Before I’ve even had the CHANCE to mess with them!

          If you are polite to me, I am polite to you, but I’m still going to hang up.
          If the crux of your job requires you to repeatedly, aggressively, condescendingly waste my time, or to miss an actual business call, I’m going to attempt to make myself laugh at the expense of your time and energy. You just attempted to make yourself some money at the expense of MY time and energy, so why not?

          1. Makes sense to me.*

            If it counts for anything (though I doubt it, judging by how adverse to the idea of jerking around jerks most of yall seem), lately I’m trying to turn to humor rather than spite – because I actually, really, LOATHE these bottom-feeders. They know what they are doing. They know that it’s wrong. They don’t care. And they got me involved – I didn’t seek out to be an awful human, in this scenario; the throne was thrust upon me. (Added plus, if I make them laugh, we both get to go home and have a shot and a chuckle. Win-win. And if they decide this is a stupid way to “earn” money, double win for me. Plus, I always could have been worse – so it’s already an automatic win for them. I could have just blown into the receiver until they hang up.)

            Some of my less-vitriolic options?:
            * tell them they really need to talk to Mr. Wayne, and then start talking in Batman voice.
            * play dumb. “What’s a business owner? Okay, and how do you spell that?”
            * “I’m pretty sure they’re married. But I’m ‘available’… what are you wearing?”
            * I pretend I think they are a recording with pre-programmed responses, and demand they sing me a complete song as proof before we go any further.
            * just keep saying “okay” and “sounds good,” but don’t actually transfer or say anything else.
            * “Okay I’ll transfer you, but first will you pray silently with me?”
            * “Got plans this weekend?”
            * “Want to hear about my plans?”
            * transfer the call to our fax machine (not really funny for them – oh well.)
            * “Wow, great timing. Have I got a business opportunity for YOU! I just need a bank account number and PIN. YOU IN!?”
            * hum. I just hum.
            * test your endurance by putting you on hold….. ……………….. …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
            * transfer the call to a different number. Like this one: 1-877-FTC-HELP
            * bad jokes: “Did you hear the one about the zombie telemarketer? They say he was a DEAD RINGER.”

            Some of these gave me a laugh/inspiration:
            https://www.inc.com/kevin-daum/21-funny-and-effective-ways-to-shut-down-telemarketers.html

            For what it’s worth, I get what yall mean; basically don’t be rude for rudeness’ sake.

            I *don’t* get not messing with someone who is doing something illegal, thinks it’s a good enough way to earn money and expects zero consequences of interacting with people in such a reprehensible and irresponsible way, and above all, has it coming because they started it and I’m not required to be, nor do I get satisfaction out of being, the bigger person in every single aspect of life. You may think differently, and I respect that. But, I’m just a flawed person who needs to get my kicks, too. I see what they are doing as an absolute attack and a prolific problem. I can’t state my belief on this enough; they absolutely have it coming.

          2. JSPA*

            Some of them are prisoners on work release (a form of de facto parole tied to employment, and sometimes to a particular employer) or as a condition of probation. They literally do not have a choice. And that’s just the ones calling from the US–there are places where it’s worse than that. A chipper, “Hi, put us on your do not call list, bye” (speaking over their spiel) takes even less time.

            1. Makes sense to me.*

              But it’s ineffective. Making myself laugh, is not.

              Did you miss where I said, if you are polite to me, I am polite to you? I thought it was clear we were talking about a) too-aggressive telemarketers, or b) people who are engaging in *current* criminal activity by trying to scam me/my company, not legitimate businesses. I make minimum wage to answer the phone. I’m not laughing at them from some high and mighty perch. It’s not like I’m cussing people out, or trying to ruin their day with an offhand comment about their current career choice/station in life/whatever.

              You can be a telemarketer. You can be a criminal. You can be someone who was falsely accused, but spent time in prison and are now trying to make a living, albeit in a bottom-feeding, dishonest kind of way.
              You can’t be a jerk to me with zero lash back.

              I had a follow-up comment with some of the funnier options I have thought of, but it disappeared into the internet when I pressed submit.

              Like,
              “No I think they are married. But I am available; what are you wearing?”

              “Oh for that you need to speak with Mr. Wayne.” *goes into Batman voice*

              *You called just in time! There’s a Prince overseas with a great opportunity, and if you give me your full name and bank account number, we can split the proceeds!”

      4. Cows go moo*

        Wow. If you don’t want to engage, you can say no thanks and hang up.

        I’m not sure what’s worse. That you caused pain to another human or that you think causing pain to another human is amusing.

      5. Tom & Johnny*

        You’re getting a lot of pushback here but I completely understand where you’re coming from.

        I ask to be removed from their lists, and ask to wait on the phone while they confirm to me they are removing me from their lists.

        If they can’t or won’t do that, then make someone cry.

    2. L.S. Cooper*

      Once I’ve determined someone is trying to sell me something, I cut them off with my firmest “stern teacher voice”, which is icy, carefully enunciated, and quite smooth, and say something like “I’m not interested in X product. If I ever am, I will contact companies first, but I will not be contacting you, because you have waisted my time. Do not contact me again. Goodbye.”
      And then the phone goes down. It’s a liiiittle rude, sure, but they were rude first, with their unsolicited calls.

      1. Nous allons, vous allez, ils vont*

        Telemarketers are people too, and they are literally just doing their jobs. If you want to use your “stern teacher voice” on someone, use it on the companies who employ them.

        1. Tom & Johnny*

          Which she did. By using it with the telemarketer who called her from that company, as a representative of that company.

          After your company gets on certain lists, especially lists that seem to get sold to particularly scummy companies, this is the only way to communicate it clearly and effectively.

          By the same token that telemarketers are people working jobs too, well telemarketers can get other jobs too. “But economic uncertainty and stuff!” Yes. Both are oversimplifications of the facts and pressures at hand.

    3. KR*

      I tell solicitors/telemarketers that they have called a business and I’m not authorized to speak with them or purchase anything. Jokes on them as I literally am in purchasing but they don’t know that.

    4. Joielle*

      I think as long as you’re not actively mean, hanging up on a solicitor isn’t horribly rude. I don’t want to waste my time or theirs. Personally, as soon as I realize it’s an unsolicited sales call, I jump in and say “oh sorry, I’m not interested” and then hang up. If the same one has called a few times, I’ll say “I’m not interested and I don’t want to receive these calls anymore, could you please take me off your list? Thanks” and then hang up. Rarely, if they persist after that, I’ll resort to calling a solicitor back and having a stern conversation about taking me off the list.

      Alternatively, can you just… not answer the phone? I don’t get many phone calls at work anymore, but when I did, I’d let everything go to voicemail unless I recognized the number, and just not call back solicitors.

      1. LSC*

        Another option, in case you don’t want to let every call go to voicemail and assuming you have caller ID, is to google unrecognized phone numbers as soon as the phone starts ringing. Not all spam/robocall numbers are online, but plenty of them are.

        If you are quick enough, you can do this within the first couple of rings and still have time to answer the call if it appears to be legit.

    5. Amber Rose*

      Just be firm. “I’m sorry, we’re not interested. Have a nice day.” And hang up without waiting for a response. You don’t need to argue with them.

      I’ve been doing this for five years, if you’re not at least that firm half your day will be wasted arguing with them. As for robocalls, yes, that’s the new normal, due to a lapsing law about it. Google it sometime, it’s pretty interesting actually.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, this is key–novices want to wait until the caller agrees with them before hanging up. You can be perfectly chirpy, even, if you like, when you say your closing line, but it’s up to you to close.

      2. Natalie*

        Absolutely. I didn’t even say that much – just “No, thank you” before hanging up – but I wasn’t a great receptionist so this may or may not be good advice.

    6. lemon*

      You can just tell them you’re not interested, and ask them to take your phone number off their list. In the US, they’re legally required to do so if you request it. Don’t feel bad about being rude– they’re used to it. And often, *they’re* being rude, because a lot of telemarketers try to push past the first “no,” and keep pressuring you for info.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      If it is something that is not business related – e.g., life insurance, I just tell them this is a business line and I am not allowed to conduct personal business on it, wish them a good day, and hang up. (I do not give them time to respond – that just encourages them!)
      If it is business related, but you aren’t interested anyway, more or less the same: I am not interested, good day, hang up.

    10. Glomarization, Esq.*

      “I’m sorry” (I’m not sorry, it’s social lubricant) “but we’re not taking any new vendors at this time. Thank you, good afternoon.” Then I hang up. It’s not rude.

    11. Jules the 3rd*

      Set them up for legal repercussions.
      1) Get their org name (“Oh, who are you with again?”)
      2) Tell them to stop calling (“Please put this number on your Do Not Call list. Include the entire X company.”) (They usually hang up on me around ‘this number’ but it counts)
      3) Document Org, Date, Time – write it down. Leave room for hash marks after.
      4) Every time they call back, confirm the org name, tell them “We asked to be put on your Do Not Call list on X date. We will start legal proceedings now.”

      I never get a third call from the same orgs. But if you do, file complaints on the org with the FTC, or if your company is interested in making this an income stream, search “ABC do not call list suit” for some suggestions.

      1. Clever Name*

        This works for legitimate businesses who are cold calling/telemarketing. Unfortunately, lots of the calls I get are scam calls. As in they have spoofed a local number and are trying to get my social security number or extort money (like the IRS scam calls). I’ve been getting some kind of weird “we’re calling about your job application” phone calls lately, and I assume it’s some sort of scam as I haven’t applied for jobs in years. The first time they called I thought it might be a wrong number, so I asked who they were calling for. The guy repeatedly said, “This is soandso calling from scammymcscammer” when I asked who they were trying to reach. It was weird.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Oh, yeah, get rude af. ‘This is a business, we don’t do personal calls to this number, don’t call back.’

    13. Fortitude Jones*

      At my last job, I just let the phone ring, lol. I’m now getting these same annoying robo calls from telemarketers on my work issued cell phone, and I do the same thing, then block them. I never engage.

    14. carrots and celery*

      Honestly I just hang up on them. It feels rude but they’re more than likely used to it if they’re cold calling. It’s no different than how I mark solicitors sending emails as spam and delete them without a second thought.

    15. Applesauced*

      the worst is headhunters who have the gall to call you at work to ask if you’re interested in another job.

    16. MoopySwarpet*

      When I had time, I would explain to them how our business works and why we don’t need their particular service. Then, I went the “I’ve told 3 people from your company we don’t need this in the last week. Why are you wasting my time and yours?” route. Then, I started wasting their time to a significant level with no payoff at the end.

      Now, I transfer them to an unattended extension where they can leave a message (or not). This has been, by far, the most effective solution. I do ask enough questions to be sure they aren’t legit services we’re already using or potentially interested in, but the janitors, hotels, trucking, magazines, office supplies, etc. all get the “One moment, please” transfer to a dead end extension. Once in a while they will call right back and tell me there’s no answer. “I’m sorry, they must have stepped away from their desk, you’ll have to leave a message.” Transfer.

      1. Pamplemeow*

        We have an unattended extension too and I’ve thought about doing the same exact thing

        1. WellRed*

          Ouir company does this. The extension even has a name, as in, “Fergus handles that. Let me transfer you.”

          1. MoopySwarpet*

            I might add that to my transfer. Then when someone calls and asks directly for Fergus, I’ll know it’s BS. lol

    17. anonymoushiker*

      I get these calls and I have *some* influence over the things they’re calling about-technology related services/products but not final decision-makers. I usually default to “We’re happy with what we have right now, thank you.” That’s usually enough to get them to end the call (Rather than me hanging up on them) but if it isn’t, I say thank you and hang up.

    18. Artemesia*

      I don’t get why you are concerned about rudeness in this situation. No one has to listen to an unsolicited sales call. when I get them at home and answer the phone I just say ‘I don’t do business with unsolicited vendors, thank you’ and hang up. Or ‘I am not interested, please remove my name from your list’ and hang up.

      At the front desk it is ‘We don’t do business with unsolicited vendors, have a good day’ and then hang up. You don’t have to engage in conversation.

      1. Pamplemeow*

        I guess I just feel bad for the people making the calls. They’re just trying to make a living, probably paid barely anything, and doing what I personally would consider my nightmare job (making calls to people who are going to be rude to you all day? That’s a big ol’ nope).

        1. Tom & Johnny*

          You can feel bad for them, and still be firm and matter-of-fact.

          Think about it this way – they are evaluated based on their calls to sales metrics. Staying on the phone longer with them, when you already know you’re not going to buy anything, wastes time they would be using to make other calls and does a disservice to their metrics.

          It’s better for them if you are clear about the fact they will make no sales with you that day, and release them to make other calls. I mean, don’t say it exactly in those words. Just be factual and let the call go.

          I have told callers, “I understand you have metrics on appointments made but I am NOT making an appointment with you for a sales pitch today. You can email me at name@company.com” But ONLY and I stress ONLY if I am actually interested in hearing further about the product. Which is about 1 time in 50.

    19. ...*

      Yes v normal to get robocalls those I just always hang up on. I haven’t read the other answers so I might come off harsh here but with solictation I just say no we’re not interested and we request you not contact us any further. Then they give a rebuttal and I say no, there is no one else to speak to and we are not able to forward you to any other party, please remove us from your list.

    20. New Normal*

      “Thank you, we’re not in the market for that right now but thank you again for calling and have a wonderful day!” And hang up. That’s how I handle it for my current small business. Super cheerful and just act like you were the one calling and wrapping up the conversation. I think just taking the lead, giving the ‘ending call’ script, and being nice but not open help a lot. We do get a few repeat calls but not many. And robocalls are HORRIBLE though (silver lining?) I don’t feel bad for hanging up on them.

      I miiiiight have had more fun with them when I worked with Big Company. It was a Fortune 500 and a veeeeery well-known brand so I always thought it funny when someone would call into our tiny branch of the whole and swear they could offer us better healthcare or such. One very persistent and earnest-sounding young man was starting up his website business and wanted to know if we wanted to switch from our own internal department employing I-don’t-even-know-how-many people to him. Just him. I don’t think he ever really understood why I wouldn’t transfer him to my manager (who has NOTHING to do with IT beyond calling them when things break) and just advised him to stick to maybe slightly smaller businesses with his cold-calling.

    21. MeganTea*

      With solicitors, I’m rude. I say something along the lines of, “Thank you, but we’re not interested,” and hang up. It gets the message across (for the most part) that calling us again would be a waste of their time.

    22. Mellow*

      I used to get calls that asked for a name that doesn’t exist where I work. Right after I hang up, I’d get another four or five calls of the same kind in an hour or less. Word get around, I guess.

      I requested and received a new phone that shows the number of the person calling. If I don’t recognize the area code, I just let it ring. If I do pick up and find myself trapped in another scam call, I say “Sure, just a moment,” and play the sound of a toilet flushing from a website I have at the ready.

      Those calls have subsided substantially.

    23. Dancing Otter*

      My father got fed up with calls from a basement waterproofing company that wouldn’t take “I don’t need it” as an answer. So he finally let them send someone out for an in-person quote.
      Our house was built on a slab.
      We never heard from them again.

  34. AwkwardTurtle*

    I am doing an interview next week without a job description. I applied to a position in March for a “Technical Research Analyst” role and my application got transferred to a different “Project Analyst” position that is no longer up on their website. I have already asked for a JD from the person handling correspondence but they said that my interviewer will go into more detail about what the role consists of. I have reviewed their website, the interviewer’s profile, her research projects, and talked via a friend to a former employee. I’m also preparing answers to standard interview questions and my own questions to ask the interviewer. I could ask for a JD again but worry that could be a mark against me. What else can I do in this situation?

    1. irene adler*

      Look up the LI profiles of those who hold the job title Project Analyst at this company. See what backgrounds they have.
      ARe there any on-line reviews of the company- Glassdoor, Indeed, and the like?

      Be ready for the interviewer to grab anything from your resume, and then ask, “tell me about skill X, here on your resume.”

      1. AwkwardTurtle*

        Thanks for the tips! I did look at reviews on Glassdoor and Indeed but they only gave a general idea of the company.

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      The problem might be that the person you are corresponding with doesn’t realize you haven’t seen any job description for the position and thinks you’re asking for more details or clarification. If the last correspondence was just that the interviewer would go into more detail, I don’t think it would be annoying to send one more email telling them that since the listing is no longer on the website, you don’t even have the basic job description.

      It sounds like you’ve covered enough bases that you’ll be fine in the interview itself. If the opportunity presents itself, you could bring it up early in the interview (like if they ask why you want the job) and just tell them what you wrote here. “I applied to a position in March for a “Technical Research Analyst” role and my application got transferred to this position, which is no longer on the website. I asked for a copy of the JD, but I think there might have been a misunderstanding in what I was actually asking for. I do know that . . . ” and then mention what you like about the company/mission/general analyst work/etc.

      Good luck!!

    3. JSPA*

      some sites are cached well enough that you can do a “search as of date” and maybe find the listing. google “how to browse an old version of a website” and find one that matches your browser and OS.

      Sometimes you can find it by putting the job title, date and company name (each) in quotes.

  35. I am Samuel*

    Happy Friday everyone! I’m new to working in management and a possible issue has come up with one of my employees. I don’t know if this is something I should leave alone or if I need to do something about it.

    The industry we work in provides support to clients. Similar to a call centre but not really. As such, we have to be available during business hours. We are open from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. on weekdays. We are not open on weekends and holidays. Also some of the information we handle is confidential so we aren’t allowed to bring work home or anywhere outside of the building. We don’t have company issued phone or laptops and can’t access work, voicemail or email outside of the office. This is to ensure the privacy of our clients and to follow the laws around having the kind of information we have.

    Since we support clients, employees have to be here at 9 a.m. and can’t be late or have an earlier or later start time. Home time is at 5 p.m. because after that there are no clients to help. We aren’t open on weekends, holidays or outside the hours of 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. on weekdays because there aren’t any clients to help and therefore no work. This is for all who work here, including management and executives.

    Everyone (including management and executives) are hourly, not salaried. We all start at 9 a.m. on the dot and leave at 5 p.m. on the dot. Due to laws here around breaks, half of us take unpaid lunch from 12:30 p.m. to 1:00 p.m. and the other half from 1:00 p.m. to 1:30 p.m. If it’s not lunch and you are not using the washroom, it is expected you will be at your desk or otherwise doing work. It’s the nature of the industry, very in-your-seat/working in the office. We don’t have all company meetings and smaller meetings about client stuff are rare, short and done in the building. There is no travel, site vists or conferences. Work is done in the office. Since we can’t offer things like working from home or flex-time, the industry standard is to offer at least 15 days off for new employees with increases from there and unlimited sick time (no comments on use unless there is suspected abuse). Days off cab be taken in full or half days only, not by the hour (ie coming in one hour later or leaving for an hour in the day due to an appointment). There is also an industry standard where everyone takes one full week off once a year that isn’t part of your days off to help with fraud detection.

    When I became a manager 11 months ago I moved to a new company. I inherited an existing team, with one new person who started at the same time I did and was hired by the old manager and his boss. The new hire is professional, well liked and works hard. I have never had an issue until now.

    Last week the new hire came to me with a presentation/business case. She asked that she be allowed to have a later start time (11:00 a.m. or noon) and as such a later home time. She also wants to be able to skip her unpaid lunch and leave 30 minutes earlier. She wants to work from home and be allowed to “flex” her time (ie work 5 hours one day and 11 hours the next to make up the time). She had a booklet, a PowerPoint and a presentation she wanted to give me to make her case. She said it took her months to put together. She had charts and stats and all kinds of stuff.

    I am floored she thinks this is possible in our industry. I realize this is her first full-time after college and second job ever but she has worked here for 11 months. She has had all the training. She was told and knows why we have set start and end times, why there’s no overtime or working on weekends or holidays, why days off are in half day (before or after lunch) and full days only, and why work can’t be done outside of the office.

    I was shocked when she came to me with this. I have never had a problem with her or her work but given she is so touch of touch with how things are done industry wide I am wondering if I missed something. I am not sure if I need to talk with her or leave this alone. I’m also not sure if this is something I need to discuss with my boss. He has only worked here for under a month and I don’t know his style well enough to know if he would get her in trouble even if this isn’t actually something I need to worry about.

    I also don’t want to speak to another manager outside of my team because I don’t want to violate my reports privacy by talking about her with other managers. My employee said this was for her work life balance, not a medical or ADA accommodation. But even a medical or ADA is not possible because of the laws around us and how the industry works. I don’t know why she thinks she can make these changes as an new employee when even managers and execs don’t get these things. After 11 months you think it would be clearing, especially with the training she got when she started.

    Is this something I should talk to her about. Bring to my boss? Or leave alone. I’ve never had an issue with her work, neither did my old boss so I’m not sure where all this came from.

    2. Wearing Many Hats*

      You should respond to her and let her know that due to the nature of the business and industry, this is not possible. This may or may not be a concern, but she is probably a flight risk given this request. You should let your boss know that you had this conversation with her just so it can be documented–you don’t want her complaining to higher ups that you won’t listen to her and have a mark against you. It sounds like her work has been good and she hasn’t created any issues in the past, but I’ve dealt with too many people who love drama!

    3. Ali G*

      What did you say to her in the moment? I think you just need to politely shut it down, give your boss a head’s up and then watch for any other red flags. Keep in mind she will likely move on if she’s that committed to having a flexible schedule.

    4. Amtelope*

      It does sound like it’s a request that’s out of step with how your industry works, but I wouldn’t penalize the employee for asking if she accepts being told “no.” And I don’t see a reason to involve your boss. I would tell her clearly “What you’ve requested isn’t possible. Our hours aren’t flexible, and because of the nature of our work, that isn’t going to change.” If she accepts that, then I think that’s all you need to do. If she continues pushing, it’s time for “These are the hours for this role. Knowing that, is this still a job you want?”

      2. Artemesia*

        When someone makes an elaborate case for something and you turn it down, you MUST alert your own boss as this is someone who will be end running you and you want your ducks lined up on this. Worst case would be a newish boss who decides to ‘think outside the box’ on this and leave you hanging. The boss always needs a head up for anything that might blind side him or her.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          This. You aren’t “violating your report’s privacy” by explaining to your boss that the report is asking for impossible benefits as the report said this is NOT a request for ADA accommodation but a personal request for better work/life balance. She is very, very invested in this happening and I agree that it will not stop with you even after you tell her it’s not possible (and you should, immediately and clearly).

          I mean, she had a booklet. A booklet. She really should have channeled that extra energy into finding a job that fits her w/l needs, if she hasn’t already.

    5. Joielle*

      I’d start by just telling her no, that’s not possible in this industry for the reasons you outlined in your comment. If she pushes back, I’d say something like “I hear your concerns, but as I said before, because of the nature of our work that’s just not possible. Knowing that, does it make sense for you to stay in this role?” If she really won’t be happy with structured hours, it’s better for her to just find a different job now (and that would be better for you too).

    6. Dust Bunny*

      She’s probably been reading a bunch of stuff about it online.

      You just tell her, no, it’s not possible in this industry/workplace. Which should be obvious if she’s been there for almost a year as it is, which makes this kind of weird. I don’t think you need to escalate it unless she pushes back.

      My job can’t be taken home, either, although I can access email after hours (but am not expected to). Some jobs are just like that. If it’s not working for her, it’s on her to look elsewhere.

    7. Kathenus*

      Previous commenters are all spot on. My only addition is to make sure that all of the things that you describe above about the needs of the position, privacy concerns, etc. are in writing so that everyone knows that they can’t take information out of the office, work at home, etc. If it’s passed on verbally/anecdotally versus in a written format in a protocol or employee handbook, you’ll both have back up for saying a simple no to things like this, and have a written document to point to that the person should already know about, to use as a reminder.

      1. Another Sarah*

        OP needs to have a serious talk with her ASAP. There is training before the job starts and it’s made clear to everyone that there are laws to follow. In addition to the training the fact no one can access work outside of work should be obvious. It’s been 11 months. Even if this is her first job after this much time and all the training she should understand. It has been spelled out and made clear. That she does not get it is worrying. She spent months on her business case for something that can never be. OP needs to loop in their boss as well because of how out there the report was on this.

        1. valentine*

          the fact no one can access work outside of work should be obvious. It’s been 11 months.
          If it’s not in her presentation, I’d say the answer is no, then, for each reason, ask her why she thinks a workaround is possible.I’d be astounded if she thinks you can just exempt her from the security protocol and the fact that you serve clients who aren’t going to go to her house.

          She spent months on her business case for something that can never be.
          This really stood out for me. That’s far, far too long, and not just because her dream was never a possibility.

    8. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Did you tell her outright “no” when she asked, and did she accept that answer? If she’s accepted it, even if disappointed, I think you can probably just let it go. But if she’s still pushing to give you a presentation on why she should get to do this, then it would be necessary certainly to talk to her and make the situation clear.

      And like…I’m a huge fan of work life balance. But it sounds like, by having no overtime and A MONTH of PTO, that’s sort of a better work life balance than the large number of jobs that expect like 60 hours a week. Now, maybe she needs more flexibility in her life (and maybe your org could see if you could flex like…half an hour to accommodate commute weirdness or child-care pickup), but then that may mean she needs to be in a different field (just like I, with my love of stable schedules will not be going into a field where I’m never “off”)

      1. Kau*

        and maybe your org could see if you could flex like…half an hour to accommodate commute weirdness or child-care pickup

        Did you even read the OP’s at all? They listed all the reasons why flexible time is not possible, and they were very clear on that.

    9. SezU*

      Just to give you some possible background on why she would do this, given the industry…. I tell people that the answer is always no if you don’t ask. So she asked. The answer is clearly no, but she felt she had to ask.

    10. Troutwaxer*

      I’m just speculating here, but I’m wondering whether your report came up with this idea on her own, or whether she is being pressured by a spouse/partner/family to bring this up? (I’ve had similar experiences w/family, so thought I should bring it up.) So you might ask, in the most pleasant manner, what’s going on with this?

    11. Mazzy*

      Don’t be thrown off by the time it took her to do that presentation and stats. If you want to bring that up, you can say that they should be challenging that energy into actual work andn not such out of place requests.

    12. sacados*

      Agree with what all commenters have said. 11 months into the job is a bit long for this, but I think it is more naivety and/or getting advice from career sites without understanding how those techniques really don’t apply in your industry.

      If you wanted to, I think you could also add something (kindly) about how you would have hoped that after nearly a year in the position she would understand why this could never be possible but was there anything unclear and/or something that gave her the impression this was something she might be able to negotiate.

      But I don’t think there’s any need to bring this to your boss, unless something escalates from here.

      1. Blue Boss*

        Agree with commenters saying that this needs to be shut down, however, one possible option might be to offer her the ability to work part time, within the established 9-5 hours.

    13. Elizabeth West*

      I’m struggling to understand why she thinks she needs work-life balance with a Monday-Friday, 9-5 schedule with weekends off. 15 days of PTO for new people, and unlimited sick time.

      It’s not really a demanding schedule even if there were a health/family/partner situation going on, in which case it would make more sense to take FMLA or just look for another job.

      1. C*

        Right?

        It sounds like she might be hearing from others or whatever that work life balance means flexible schedules and WFH when it…doesn’t. A 9-5 job with zero overtime (paid or otherwise) and a month of PTO out of the gate has screaming work-life balance.

      2. Nous allons, vous allez, ils vont*

        Some people really hate being in an office 40 hours a week (me included). 9-5, Mon-Fri may seem like a good deal, but in my opinion it’s only because culturally we tend to work WAY too much. I see 40 hours of my week spent working as a huge waste of time. I don’t think we should work more than 36 hours a week, and even that seems like a lot to me. But I recognize that with our work culture being the way it is, this opinion isn’t a popular one.

        However, this employee does seem pretty out of touch with how her industry works.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          If that’s a thing for her, then she needs to find a job that jibes with it. It’s already been made clear to her that this industry and this position is not that flexible.

          She reminds me of the dress code interns (or shoes, or whatever that was).

          1. Office Gumby*

            That’s exactly what I was thinking! It’s exactly like the dress code interns.

            I am curious as to why she thought flexibility in her schedule was a doable thing. I would love an update on this.

            Also, as she’s gone through so much effort to choreograph a dance (really, a booklet, a ppt and more!?) to present her case, I do think you, OP, should clue in your boss. There’s some serious thought going on in the employee’s head, and after all this sunk cost, I doubt this will be the end of it.

            P.S.: If she does quit, can I have her job?

    14. MissDisplaced*

      Based on what you’ve described here about your work and your industry, deviations from the standard work times are not possible, and not accommodated for anyone.

      In a way, this makes it much easier for you. You can feel free to reject.

      “What you’ve requested is not possible. In this business, our start and stop hours are not flexible, and because of the nature of our work, this is not going to change. If your personal circumstances have changed, that is understandable, but these are the hours this job requires, and knowing that you would have to decide if this is still a job you would want.”

    15. Gumby*

      Clearly the right answer is to say a clear and immediate “no” and warn your boss.

      But I am fascinated by such an out of step request and would start asking all sorts of questions. Like:
      * So you are going to start at noon and presumably work until 8:30. What exactly are you going to be doing between 5 and 8:30?
      * As you know, we cannot remove work data from the building. How do you plan to overcome the lack of work computer, phone, or client data from your home office to do effective work?
      or
      * I see you plan to circumvent the law regarding information security. What is your plan to deal with the consequences of breaking those laws? Have you already engaged your lawyer?

    16. JSPA*

      You don’t have to treat it like a demerit or a sign of her being strange or unaware or strangely unaware. Some jobs that were “absolute” in this way 10 years ago, no longer are. In each case, at some point, things changed. You don’t know if that’s possible unless you ask.

      I would call her in to say that you were sorry to see her have wasted so much time, analysis and initiative on something that’s completely impossible, due to regulations in your industry as well as standard practices in your firm. But first–as you’re in a new firm– re-verify that you are right, and are not merely treating the hard line of your prior company as something required by law, or by your current company.

      Next, especially if you did not look at any of her documentation, ask her to tell you, in two minutes or less, what gave her the idea that this might be possible. If she says that a third competitor does this, and that they use the late hours to service clients in a different time zone, you can say, “thank you for the information, I don’t believe it’s likely to be possible for the forseeable future, but I will bring up this alternative way of doing business with my boss.” If she says, “my friends in another industry did this”? “Well, and now you understand the essential difference between our highly regulated industry and theirs! We have no ability to do this, and I’m afraid it’s a collosal waste of your time to have pulled this data together, without having first considered that one defining fact of our industry.”

      If she’s excellent: “As you know, we have a generous sick leave policy. We trust people not to abuse it. If the stress of the job creates a circumstance where it could affect your mental health to come in, and you therefore–rarely–take an occasional half-day off to re-balance, this would not be an abuse of the system. We however have exactly zero ability to reset your start and end times, and especially, to have someone here past the closing hour.”

      Finally: “Given that this is explicitly covered in training, I’m surprised you thought that this could be open for discussion. I hope that if someone suggested this course of action to you, you will not continue to consider them as a good source of relevant information and guidance. Acting cavalier about something so core to our function is not a good look. Some people would take your request to go around the fraud prevention laws as s priori evidence of improper intent. A one-time mistake of thougtlessness can happen. But I need to know that you understand there’s no room for exceptions in our guidelines, and that you will not be hoping or expecting that some future exception will be made, if you’re good enough or ask for it in the right way. Neither you nor I nor anyone else in this building have that freedom or ability, any more than I could flap my arms and fly to the roof. Nor should we.”

      1. NACSACJACK*

        I would not say this, “any more than I could flap my arms and fly to the roof.” Lets be clear without making weird out of context comments.

    17. The Other Dawn*

      The cynic in me wonders if she’s doing this as a way for her to justify looking for another job. Maybe she wants to move on, but feels guilty, so she’s making a request that she knows won’t be approved. Probably far-fetched, but being that’s she’s been there 11 months and knows how the industry and your company work, this request seems odd.

      I once had someone do something like this and it turned out she did it as a way to justify leaving. Rather than just saying she wants to leave an go to school, she came up with a request, which turned out to be a demand, that she knew wouldn’t fly. And when it didn’t, she gave her notice and said she was going to school and that the work schedule isn’t doable (it boiled down to not wanting to work four hours on a Saturday when that’s what the position required, and it was already a part-time schedule, at that).

  36. darlingpants*

    I just had an interview for a temp-to-perm PhD level position, and I’m curious how people feel about them. My thought in general is they are exploitative ways to keep a contingent workforce working without security or benefits, but also this job looks interesting, I could swing the 90 days without benefits financially and my post-PhD job search has taken way longer than I expected. How do you all think about the pros and cons of a temp-to-perm contract, especially for higher level positions?

    1. Denise*

      It seems to be mostly a question of opportunity cost for you, completely separate from any opinion about the merits or demerits of temp to perm contracts in the abstract. What other opportunities would you be forgoing? If it doesn’t become permanent, will it still further your professional goals? Are the terms of employment satisfactory to you?

      Also, there’s a reason that it’s temp to perm rather than permanent. If anything it seems to signal that they either aren’t sure whether they will need someone in this role longterm or are maybe hesitant to make a permanent hire outright, and so are offering it as a temporary role first. In any event, I’d probably ask whether they anticipate the role becoming permanent and based on what contingencies.

    2. TCO*

      I think it’s important to separate your feelings about the practice as a whole from the reality of whether you are interested in this job and would be able to take it. 90 days doesn’t seem that long to me–it’s similar to some permanent jobs where there’s a probationary period and/or a 1-2 month delay before benefits begin. It doesn’t seem as exploitative as the long-term “temp” jobs that make people live through years of uncertainty and poor compensation (and even those work well for some people!).

    3. Merci Dee*

      Granted, my current position isn’t at a PhD level, but my job was a temp-to-perm arrangement as well. The initial temporary portion of the job was supposed to last 6 months, but I was hired permanently half-way through the temp stage. I’ve been here for just over 9 years now, so it really worked out in my favor.

      The only thing about my job that might be different from what others experienced — I worked as a temp for 3 months before they converted me to a permanent employee, but then I was still treated as being on a 90-day probationary period for certain benefits to comply with company policy. So you might work a temp period, and then still have to wait after you get hired to perm for some of your benefits like 401(k), insurances, etc. to kick in.

  37. Amber Rose*

    Oh man, I need some guilt advice. I made a minor mistake on Monday when I told a customer that we could ship an order that turned out to be complicated so it didn’t go, and then due to some confusion and me forgetting to follow up, it actually didn’t ship until Wednesday. Normally this would have just been me and my own problem, but the owner of said company is apparently now the owner of 40% of our company, both he and his wife (who placed the order) are unreasonable and rude, and my email blew up with a bunch of “everyone complains about you all the time, you’re the worst” type messages, and more importantly, both of them called in to tear a strip off our shipper… who wasn’t even HERE, he was away those days.

    He’s a good kid who tried really hard to smooth things over, but like… he took the heat that I should have taken. That wasn’t fair, and aside from my guilt over the mistake, I now feeling immensely more guilty that this kid just sat through like an hour of brutality that should have been mine, and if not mine, particularly not his since he was away.

    My boss and manager were both cool about it, we talked it over, came up with a plan so this doesn’t happen again, and they both told me that mistakes aside, this dude was way out of line and a huge jerk, but I still feel like crap and there’s still the fact that jerk-dude is now technically… my boss. As he owns a plurality of the company.

    I just don’t know, I feel awful and I’m having a hard time shaking it.

    On the small bright side: the lady who stole all that money from us has been charged and her lawyer was told to advise her to turn herself in. I know that her continued cheerful posts on FB has been making my boss furious for months now, so that should cheer her up.

    1. Purt's Peas*

      Can you go to the shipper and say, “Hey, I know you took a lot of heat for X mistake. I wanted to thank you for handling that so well, and also I wanted to apologize for the way it was misdirected onto you–you were in no way responsible for the screw-up.”

      An additional thing you can do is tell the shipper’s boss that you heard he did a good job handling that new 40% owner on the phone.

      I’m not surprised you’re feeling torn up about this. I’m a regular commenter/reader (just changed my handle) and I’ve read your posts about your workplace for the last little while. You would need to be made out of very stern stuff (diamond hard stuff) to not feel bad when 1) your work is the way it is, 2) you receive a ton of very nasty nastygrams (!), and 3) when you have a work ethic and you make a mistake that affects other people.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Definitely this. Do something nice for the shipper. It doesn’t have to be expensive or even cost any money at all, but do something nice for the poor guy.

      3. T. Boone Pickens*

        Yup, came here to say the same. Thank the guy who took the bullet for you and apologize.

      4. Amber Rose*

        I did apologize to him but he waved me off and said it wasn’t my fault. But it was. :(

        My boss and his boss are the same person, he’s already heard from her.

        1. Purt’s Peas*

          Well it DEFINITELY was not your fault that a guy thinks that the appropriate response to a mixup—a mixup in his own company, nonetheless—is to call someone and spew vitriol for an hour (!).

          You made a mistake, that probably had a lot to do with flaws in the workflow; you brought it to the attention of your boss; you resolved it; you have a plan to avoid similar mistakes going forward. That’s an ideal chain of events and is the extent of your responsibility.

          Things you aren’t responsible for: prostrating yourself in penitence; anticipating that a grown adult who has a stake in your and your coworkers’ morale would react with sheer poison; preventing a person with more power than you from an unpredictable and irrational act.

          I think you’re good if you apologized to your coworker already! If you feel the urge, I think you could say to him, “Thanks again for dealing with that call the other day. I owe you a coffee or something for it, and I’m going to head to Starbucks soonish—what can I get you?”

          But I think the last thing you can do before you’re asking him to manage your guilt for you; and throughout please keep in mind that it wasn’t your fault.

    2. JSPA*

      chocolate. a BIG Toblerone or something similarly nice (but not romantic-y) and a “thanks for taking the pointy end of the verbal spears for me” card.

  38. Anon for this one*

    The sexism post really spoke to me yesterday. I’m currently trying to evaluate my own situation with a sexist boss. The short version is that my boss is an in-denial sexist, but I’ve worked with him for 9 years. The trade offs were always worth it. He’s retiring next summer, but the sexist comments toward me are getting worse and I’m now struggling with those trade offs.

    What I mean by in-denial sexist is that I really think he believes he’s respectful and supportive of women in the workplace. He references articles he’s read and talks about how supportive he is all the time. But he’ll then point out an example of his support and it will be related to being understanding of women’s emotions, or something equally as frustrating. Some examples:
    – He frequently assumes my position on something due to my status as a woman. He’s typically wrong and I then have to spend time “proving” why that’s not what I believe.
    – There are 4 directors under my boss, 2 men and 2 women. The men are typically referred to in emails as “Director of X”, the other woman is “Dir. of X”, and I’m generally referred to as “X manager” (side note: the 3 of them are slightly younger than him, but I’m his daughter’s age, so there’s an ageist thing sometimes too).
    – When the other female director and I make suggestions, we have to provide supporting data/info (that’s fine!), but the 2 male directors are frequently taken at their word and their research is assumed (not… as fine).
    – He addresses any sexism concerns in a direct and timely manner (good!), but typically brushes them off in the end due to a lack of evidence and sometimes saying it was an emotional overreaction (ugh).

    There are other examples of this type of behavior, but I don’t want to this to get longer and I think that illustrates the situation. As I said, I’ve put up with this for a long time. I have a medical condition that restricts my driving hours and length of commute, which this job is extremely flexible about. The work is also great. My position combines 2 areas that aren’t typically found in the same job, and because they’re areas that my boss doesn’t enjoy I’m able to learn and grow in these areas mostly as I want to. But, he also restricts my resources, so I’m not fully versed in either area well enough to make a lateral transition elsewhere. And, a job doing both, close enough to home, during the hours I would need, would be tough. I do keep an eye on job listings, but in the past couple of years, I’ve only ever seen positions pop up that I’d apply to if I truly needed just “a job”.

    So, I feel stuck. The person slated to take over next year (one of the male directors – shocking!) is actually great. I don’t want to move up from my current level, and he’s fantastic to work with. I think he’ll do a lot of good. But I also think my boss is getting worse because of his pending retirement, so I’m worried it will continue to escalate (when it’s already so frustrating!) or that he’ll possibly even decide to cancel his plans (I’m not sure that’s an option for him at this point, nor do I think I could ask and find out).

    1. Mbarr*

      I’m mainly here to offer my sympathies.

      It sounds like you don’t want to directly confront him. I assume there’s no HR you can go to?

      I can imagine Alison would recommend cutting him off directly. E.g. when he assumes your point of view, “That’s not my opinion. Please don’t assume that.” (And then don’t bother trying to correct/prove things to him.)

      As for stuff like you having to provide research and the males not, maybe start asking for it, but in a roundabout way. “Thanks for suggestion X – can you provide the background research as per this template so we can document it?” – I’m sure if you keep asking, they’ll get tired of it and you’ll be able to stop too?

      1. Anon for this one*

        All types of support are welcome :) Sometimes it’s enough to step out of the situation and recognize that there’s a problem, even if I can’t change it.

        Without getting into too much detail, I handle most of our HR and my boss handles any escalations (figures, right?)

        I’m a pretty matter-of-fact and direct person, so I’ve pointed these things out in the past. He’s fine with me speaking my mind, but he’s also quick to shoot me down with a look of “that’s cute, but I know better” (blech). And then it’s generally brushed off as me overreacting or misinterpreting his intentions. I used to then point out that intentions and perceptions aren’t the same, etc., but there was never much reception to that so I stopped. At this point the interactions typically go: he gives me an opinion, I state that it’s not actually my opinion and present what my opinion actually is, then he either lets it drop and we move on or he pushes and I repeat myself until he gives me a “sure that’s your opinion, wink wink nudge nudge” look and I internally roll my eyes and move on.

        I do want to point out that it’s just my boss that has this issue. The other directors (male and female) are great, so the male directors are doing their job (and thus the required research/documentation). Sometimes we need their data and other times not, but they’re not being challenged to provide it in order to make a suggestion. So it’s easy to ask for, but not an especially big deal for me to do so.

    2. no, the other Laura*

      Because he is a short timer and because you said you’d have a real challenge finding a role with comparable flexibility that you need….my vote would be to stick it out and smile vacantly, respond “uh thanks for sharing! Now about those TPS reports” and be REALLY HAPPY when he retires. Focus on interactions with the protege/Anointed Heir and try to make those as positive and forward-looking as possible. Take a “bless his heart” attitude with the incumbent pig.

      This is basically what I’m doing with one of the harassers at CurrentJob, who has not harassed me but has harassed other people, was reported to HR by men who witnessed his behavior, and then the reporters were the ones who got in trouble. But, that guy is not even a manager of anyone, much less my manager, and not in a group I need to deal with, so I don’t owe him anything more than a “go eff yourself a-hole”. So it’s very easy for me to ignore him. It’s different when it’s your direct manager who you have to deal with every day. Only you can determine what your personal line is and what you would walk out over.

      On the one hand, being there nine years gives you a decent amount of capital. And the guy is retiring, how closely will he stick with the industry after he retires? Would there actually be much blowback if you gave him a piece of your mind and then he fked off to The Villages to drive a golf cart the rest of his days? Or is he going to stick around in a consulting role?

      On the other hand, after nine years the experience of finding out that someone you thought agreed with you/was loyal to you actually really dislikes you is a bit like getting mauled by your nine-year-old dog who has never hurt a fly. And you do know this is a person who thinks of you as not-quite a fully paid up first class human, but an emotional, slightly stupid, half-a-person. He’s either going to blow you off as having a Lady Brain Moment or be horrified.

      I don’t know, it just sucks out loud that we have to do this calculus, doesn’t it?

      1. Anon for this one*

        I do think he’s considering a consulting role, so I’ll probably cushion anything I say. I’ve never had a problem speaking up to him, and I’ve been lucky enough to not run into problems doing so. It’s just… never effective, so not worth the effort/nerves!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s incredibly frustrating. I wish I could say that was rare, but unfortunately it’s quite common for sexist men to be in denial about it. They often have misguided notions of being champions of women just because they have daughters and are champions of their daughters, but then these men will still work against the adult women in their workplace. Yikes! I wish I had something more helpful to add here.

      1. Anon for this one*

        This is very spot on. Frustrating situation, but it’s encouraging to hear from others!

    4. LW from yesterday*

      I just wanted to say, sorry, I know it sucks, and no, you aren’t imagining things. Sexist boss I mentioned yesterday started with things like this. They even stayed at this quite tame level for over a year. Things that on their own you feel silly making a big deal of…. But as a whole, paint a big picture of “woah, it is this guy’s core belief that women are less equipped to do this job than men.”

      –And ultimately, that’s the rub. As he gets closer to retirement, I bet he’s becoming more and more worried that you’re not up to manage things without him, because no one else *understands and accommodates* the *special handling* a woman *requires* quite as well as he does. And, sorry to say, no amount of evidence to the contrary or hard work on your part is going to change a belief that is so deeply rooted, he doesn’t even realize he holds it.

      So I’ll give you some more details about my story to hopefully serve as some kind of… I don’t know…. Commiseration?

      I particularly felt you on your second part. Boss would always refer to the men as the “___ lead” but would refer to women as “the ____ person.”

      Later, when our project became particularly stressful, it escalated to red-faced screaming in our faces over little things that were often his miscommunication/fault.

      But wait, it got worse. The more stressful work got, the less patience he had for hiding his true feelings.
      In meetings, women were no longer allowed to voice their opinion. He’d cut them off with his trademark “Here…” Dismissal. On 3-4 occasions I can recall, the only way we actually got through a conversation was when a male spoke up and said “why don’t you let her finish her thought.”

      But a tyranical boss also spreads stress and fear down the ranks. And the young guys took their lead and social queues from this jerk (in your case – I can totally picture boss giving tips to your colleagues all about how to handle woman folk’s unique needs).

      At one point, a female coworker asked a male coworker a question about something he had messed up. He replied by running over into her cube, grabbing either side of her chair while she was still sitting, and screaming in her face until a manager from another department heard and came running over and physically put his hand on this guy’s arm and dragged him backward out of the cube. Other manager dragged him straight to our boss, who never took any action and did not report it to HR.

      The straw that broke the camel’s back was when I was in a meeting with boss, several other managers at bosses level, and many colleagues. My boss mimicked my other female coworkers voice. Literally, “Oh, yeah, I bet Sue will be all ‘But Boss, I can’t make that timeline, I’m too busy booking my Disney vacation'” in a whiney baby voice. That’s what finally brought me to HR. And after they launched an investigation all 9 people in our group (except the coworker who got physical) came out (in a group meeting) and said they lived in dread of going to work. And confirmed his pattern of sexism (there were only 3 women in the group, so 5 men confirmed it with varying levels of exuberance).

      Then HR told me nothing would be done about him, but don’t worry, they wouldn’t be putting new hires in his group anymore because we “didn’t want them thinking this is what Company is like.” I pointed out that if the company allows the behavior, anywhere in the company, then it IS what the company is really like.

      Anyway, sorry, that got really long. The point I wanted to make was:
      1) Sue still works for him and is still working really, really, really hard to prove to him that she is just as smart and capable as the men. Honestly, she’s 10x better than the men, just in experience level alone before you factor in her natural talent and dedication. But he still doesn’t see it and because of that she’s been stuck in the same position for 3 years with no promotion.
      2) I made it very clear that I would not be working under that man any longer. They gave me a transfer (and a month later, a mysterious raise).
      And I guess my question to you is: what are all the possible outcomes, accepting that Your Boss Sucks and Isn’t Going To Change…. And which one sets you up for the most success and happiness?

      1. Anon for this one*

        Thank you for this. I think it helps just to know that I’m not crazy, that this can get worse, and that it’s ok to think about upending things if it does! I’m lucky that there IS an end in sight next year, and hopefully it remains around where it’s at until then. Fingers crossed! All of this is so frustrating, but I have to say that your story is very inspiring. Speaking up can be intimidating. I’m lucky (again) that I’m able to speak up when I feel it’s necessary, and it’s strengthening to hear stories like yours.

        1. LW from yesterday*

          I think you’ve got a great attitude about it! Just because my situation got worse doesn’t mean yours necessarily will. It sounds like the odds are stacked more heavily in your favor on this one. But just keeping the knowledge in the back of your mind that it’s real might help you feel empowered to take action before (if) it hits a point of no return

    5. JSPA*

      Don’t feel the need to debate or defend–“not actually true, but also not relevant, so moving right along” is fine. Do that, and the rest of the standing misery and mental poking will probably shed off your back better.

      If he asks about it, say something borderline nonsensical that sounds like a saying, and say it with a smile. “Just keeping my emotional powder dry.” “With age comes brevity.” “with brevity comes levity.” Just roll them on by. They’re not rude, they’re cheery and conversational and in-control, and they’re not all about him pushing your buttons. Which seems to be the biggest beef, right? In a job you otherwise want? And with an incoming manager you suspect will be better.

  39. Lady Jay*

    Vent: I wish there were coffee shops where quiet was the norm, not the exception.

    Tried to work in a coffee shop this morning, and a noisy interview (a lot of that loud, polite laughter) moved in RIGHT next to me. I’ve also tried to work in coffee shops and been privvy to first dates and to people’s detailed descriptions of medical procedures. [insert shocked emoji]. Had to leave early.

    If I ever decide to switch industries, I think there’s a real market for coffee shops with a quiet/independent work room, no-social-meetups allowed.

    Okay, end vent.

    1. Grace*

      I’ve always found that the quietest cafes are the ones in bookshops – not sure where you live, but most Waterstones in the UK have a cafe attached. It’s usually patronised by people that have just bought a book and want to read it rather than people looking for somewhere to have a coffee (and especially not families with small children – the bookshop cafe up a flight of stairs isn’t the obvious choice), so it’s pretty quiet.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I am the complete opposite of you– I like to work in coffee shops because there’s chatter and noise. When I need to concentrate, I stay in my home office. We have a bookstore near us that serves coffee and is generally quieter; it’s mostly a matter of finding a spot that works best for you. There’s the library, for example. But if you feel the need to work in coffee shops, I’d recommend investing in a good pair of headphones.

      1. Lady Jay*

        I am not actually looking for suggestions, just a spot to vent, but thanks!

        (And for what it’s worth, it’s not like I don’t know anything y’all are bringing up. I’ve tried it all: headphones, five different coffee shops around town, trying to breathe through it, everything. In each case, I get somebody noisy moving in next to me, like I’m cursed with this, and headphones are never enough to cut out the noise. Ultimately, I go to coffee shops very rarely because of the noise, but today, there’s work being done in my primary office that made it equally/more noisy to stay there.)

      1. Lady Jay*

        Ha! Unfortunately mine is 1) freezing and 2) actually kind of loud, since they don’t enforce a quiet policy.

        Really, what I’d love is a coffee shop vibe (bagel, good coffee, nice spot to look out the window) without listening to people’s interviews or medical procedures. But I guess that’s not a thing these days.

        1. Lovecraft Beauty*

          Academic library, if you have access to one. They’re silent and often have cafes attached.

          1. Lady Jay*

            Yes, my library IS academic. In fact, the cafe in the library was what sparked my venting. I promise, I am not looking for solutions. If there were solutions, I would have found them. There is only venting.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      TBH I’ve found that bars during the day can be pretty quiet, and your bartender won’t mind filling you up with Cokes so long as you tip as if you were drinking beers.

    5. Rey*

      My bookstore’s coffee shop always has these people pitching their MLMs! Every Saturday morning they are in there with a new couple explaining how much money they can make, etc. Smh

      1. Lady Jay*

        Ooooo, that also sounds annoying! You may have my “detailed description of medical procedure” beat.

      2. Artemesia*

        I once did a camp weekend with a bookclub on a quiet mountain lake cabin and the cabin not far from us had an MLM training going loudly on all weekend on their deck, bouncing off the lake and filling the air with ridiculous nonsense. So much for serenity in the wilds.

    6. epi*

      Several years ago, before paid coworking spaces started to really take off, I was sure this was going to become a thing. I used to work near Next Door Chicago which is part cafe, part community space, part weird State Farm outreach project. Around the time it opened, I remember reading articles about similar concepts. I’ve also been in cafes– mostly in San Francisco where there is a way to reserve a table if you plan to really camp out there and work, and I’ve found those spaces quieter. It seemed like people there to work gravitated towards the same long, shared tables and were kind of their own section of the cafe.

      I spent a lot of time trying to find the “good” Starbucks when I was briefly living with my parents during grad school, in a suburb where seemingly everything closed at 9. It was like my silent reading was a magnet for animated Bible study groups to sit down right next to me. Then we’d each spend the evening learning about character in our own way. :)

      Anyway I feel your pain! I would check out your local library– more of them are starting to have cafes somewhere inside and to soften on bringing covered beverages– or a more casual or unusual coworking type of setup, like Next Door. They’re still out there!

    8. Elizabeth West*

      This is why I don’t write in coffee shops. I tried it once when my power went out (the day I was pushing to finish Secret Book, which turned out to be a complete failure anyway). It was so loud even headphones didn’t help block anything. And of course, all the coffee shops here seem to be in either modern or refurbished turn-of-the-century buildings downtown, with hard surfaces (brick walls, wood floors, echoing high ceilings, tile, etc.) that amplify noise. Although I did manage to finish a chapter, it was under duress and very stressful.

      I can’t imagine having an interview in a coffee shop, unless it was off peak hours and the place was mostly empty.

    10. Puffle*

      Oh, I’m totally with you here, I don’t understand how people can work in coffee shops. The chatter, the laughter, the yelling children, the sound of the coffee machine running- a lot of my local places are so loud the baristas have to shout to each other to be heard.

      Yesterday I went to a coffee shop with an upstairs section, totally empty… I had blissful quiet until someone brought their two very loud, very obnoxious children upstairs and sat at the table next to me >< luckily I was just there to read a book and kill time until I could pick up my car from the garage, but still annoying!

  40. Heidi*

    Here’s something really random that happened. I came into my office one morning to find my chair gone and a different one its place. Not a new chair, just a different chair. I suspect the cleaning crew was pulling all the chairs out of the offices to vacuum and didn’t sort them back into the right offices. Now I have no problem with the new chair, but I can’t help but wonder if someone else in the office misses it and would prefer to have it back rather than use my chair. However, it seems bizarre to go around to everyone’s office (I don’t know the people on our floor well) and ask if they have the right chair. Should I wait for someone to come around looking? Might they think I stole their chair? It’s a generic chair, but someone might be attached to it.

      1. Heidi*

        My floor isn’t one centralized group, but a hodgepodge of people from different departments. About 40 offices total, and I only know the people in maybe 3 of them (some of them are very senior to me). There’s also a lot of people moving in and out, so no one keeps an email list of everyone on our floor, unfortunately.

        1. Nott the Brave*

          If there’s a break room on your floor, you could post a sign there explaining that your chair has been changed, and while you don’t mind, you’re happy to return it if someone misses it.

          1. SarahKay*

            I like Nott’s idea of posting a notice.
            My chair looks fairly unimpressive but supports my back perfectly. If it went AWOL I would seriously consider wandering around the office looking for it – and probably wishing it was a dog so I could call for it: “Here, chair, good chair, come to heel”.

        2. Dr. Anonymous*

          Is there a common break room? Maybe you can post a picture of it with the caption, “Is this your chair?”

    2. Owler*

      Stay late and try other chairs to find yours? And then put it sticker under it for future recovery.

    3. Artemesia*

      I suspect the truth is that someone stole your chair. That happens all the time in offices.

    4. JSPA*

      Note on front door or by elevator, formatted like lost cat, but “is this your chair? do you miss it?” small text saying, “I like this one fine, and if you have mine, you can keep it. But if anyone misses their chair and wants to help coordinate an un-shuffling of the chairs that were randomized in the cleaning last month, please email [email or other favored mode of communication]. complete with little tear tabs that say ChairBlink and your email.

  41. Jasmine*

    Hey everyone! So I’ve given my notice to da boss (as I’m off to do an MSc in Library Science- actually spurred by a discussion on a Friday open thread about 18 months ago!), and am now trying to write a ob advert for my replacement, as da boss is panicking that I’m leaving (which is flattering, I suppose?).

    I’m really struggling to articulate the job role. Supposedly it’s Operations Manager, but really is General Dogsbody, Problem Solver, Changer of Fuses, Barrier between Difficult Boss & Oversensitive Staff, Occasional Courier Yeller and Sympathic Nodder.

    I don’t know know what question I’m trying to ask y’all, but… help?

    1. Qistina*

      How about People & Office Manager?

      (I’ve done all that (+ recruitment!), and my title was just Office Manager. -_- I would have liked Talent Acquisition and Office Manager, because I recruited *a lot*. Gah.)

    2. Narvo Flieboppen*

      I was looking an Office Manager position recently and then I read the job description. Here are a couple of stand outs which I would consider as a guide of ‘Not To Do’. I also took some of these as enough of a red flag that I didn’t apply for the job. They sound disorganized and I’m not looking to be the fixer (again. Even though it seems to be in my nature.) This ad was from a company which declares that it does business globally, their entire staff are based out of the one local location, and this job pays all of minimum wage.

      The listings for job duties of the ‘Office Manager’ position were:

      Responsible for ordering/shopping for food for daily company lunches. Food prep.
      Must process AR/AP transactions daily. Also payroll and financial statements. And other reports.
      Bank accounts. Monthly.
      Responsible for ordering office supplies and equipment. Also, staffing.
      Maintain office equipment/computers in working order.
      Must be available evenings/weekends for phone calls and Skype conferences.
      Valid drivers license required for running errands throughout the day.

      The wording of the job duties was enough to put me off. I really enjoyed that being responsible for staffing was basically a quick addendum to the ordering of office supplies and equipment. Because those are not completely different skill sets. Nope, not at all.

      This is basically the worst of the worst, but those job duties as listed are nutty and poorly written.

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      I think that Operations Manager (or Office Manager) is basically expected to be the hodgepodge of duties that need to be done. When I was creating job titles and descriptions a couple years ago, the main difference (I could find) between the two is that the Operations Manager is also involved in some of the accounting and books where an Office Manager would stop just short of that.

      I don’t think you have to line out every single task in the job advert. Someone looking to be an Operations Manager likely knows what that entails. If there are some tasks that are more of a focus (Administrative support, Liaise between staff and upper management, Coordination of maintenance, etc.) you could line those out. I would think there are at least a few duties that are more specific to your company and/or industry that you could line out as well (compliance? regulations?). You could also list specific positions that might normally be their own job (HR, logistics, etc.).

      I think when you actually start interviewing, you’d probably want to break it down to more specific tasks and the amount of time spent on them.

    4. JSPA*

      Operations manager. Requires varied people skills, practical problem solving including a smidge of general maintenance, own car for occasional errands, the (metaphorical) ability to herd cats and unflappable good humor.

  42. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    I have a coworker who, while above me in the department, isn’t really my manager. But they desperately want to move up to manager. Our bosses (CEO and COO, it’s a small company) have told them that they needs to demonstrate leadership in order to get promoted, but they are… not good at it. They make decisions just to make them, and even a little push back generally nips their ideas in the bud. They’re very good at the job they actually DO, but their constant “managing” of me and the other person in my department is derailing everyone and wasting time and energy on all fronts.

    In what feels like the straw that has finally broken the camel’s back: they have been trying to push last minute work on me despite: 1. knowing the schedule I had already created for this particular task and 2. not checking last year’s timeline for this task. His insistence that I start this off with 1 day’s notice is due to the fact that we “started on it last August” when, in fact, we didn’t ramp up this promotion until November. It’s frustrating and I’m worried my bosses are going to think I’m overly negative/not team oriented because I keep having to shoot their ideas down or push back.

    1. Eleanor Konik*

      As long as you’re not “overly negative” or forced to push back a lot with your actual bosses, I think you’re fine. To me, the phrasing “you need to demonstrate leadership” means that they know your coworker hasn’t actually demonstrated any of those skills, aka lacks them.

      If it’s really interfering with your work, though, can you go to your boss and basically say that if she’s being given this quasi-authority and encouragement to push work on you (even though they aren’t your boss), she could use mentorship and training in leadership? Like, they’ve encouraged her to demonstrate leadership but doesn’t have the tools, and you’re not in a position to teach it?

      I’m sure there’s a more politic way to phrase it, but that concept.

    2. Mazzy*

      Omg I’ve watched this from afar and thank god have not been subject to it, but I still wanted to kill they guy! I talked about it with my boss and he’s given me free reign to say what I want to push back, even if it isn’t specifically against them trying to be a manager. And I’ve been “rude” at times but it probably smoothed things over in the longer term

    3. Troutwaxer*

      Mainly sympathy posting, but it seems they don’t understand that “leadership” isn’t just about giving orders. It’s about not getting in the way while your staff does what they already know how to do, and knowing when to jump in and give instructions and when to quietly act like you’re confident in your staff’s training is the essence of being a good leader. (Real captains don’t gesture at the helmsman and say “thataway.”) I don’t know whether there’s any way to drop that particular hint or not…

    4. WellRed*

      You either need to practice a script to shut this down in the moment every time or you need to get clarification from your actual manager that coworker is, indeed, supposed to be giving you work, etc. My bet is they are not.

    5. Artemesia*

      I’d be giving some thought about how to sandbag this employees chances at promotion. How can you let your manager know that this meddling micromanaging approach is derailing productivity. If you can’t do this, you will end up with Fergus as your manager. It might be a frank conversation with a big focus on ‘I am really concerned about being productive and getting things done and I am having a repeated problem here with Fergus derailing progress’ Or you might need to figure out ways to showcase this problem more subtly. But you need to be figuring out how to take this guy out of the running for a promotion or it gets worse. I have always succeeded in getting changes I wanted by focusing on needs of the organization and improved productivity (as opposed to my being annoyed, or personally impacted or in a more personal assessment of the person I needed to thwart.) Position yourself on the boss’s team focused on organizational success not on personal grievance and then get crystal clear about a pattern that is inhibiting success.

    6. JSPA*

      I think you can go to the boss and say, “i love coworker as a person, but I think they’re trying to demonstrate leadership for your sake by getting between me and my already existing schedule for X. It’s a huge distraction. Even if coworker were clear on last year’s timeline and other relevant details–which they’re not–it would still be unhelpful. Could you please give coworker more specific direction on what you mean by “demonstrating leadership,” and point them away from what they’re doing now?”

      In short, you want boss to give coworer a path to success that doesn’t lead through you. (Let your other coworker as for themselves; you speak for you.)

      Boss may ask for suggestions, in which case, “Maybe coworker could work up a proposal for a new project. I would be glad to participate in something new, if it might be helpful. I’m not happy with counterproductive attempts to rejigger a perfectly functional plan. Unless, of course, you are not satisfied with the plan, and actively want to see changes, in which case, please let me know, so I can also be proactive and involved in the process.”

  43. Murphy*

    tl;dr We are not allowed to tell our internal clients that the department is dealing with a large volume of requests or is understaffed.

    I’m relatively new at my job at a university (but not new to this type of role). We were understaffed due to some turnover/medical leave, but there are also some new positions that have either started recently or will be starting soon. My department had been trying to get new hires to deal with just the sheer volume of work that there is for my department to do. New hires need time to get trained, and most of us are not able to do the largest most complex type of requests until we have more experience. Only a few people can, and they also have to train us newbies.Due to this, the backlog, particularly of the largest most complex requests is quite long, longer than people have come to expect.

    I and several other new hires are alternating answering the department’s email box. A lot of the emails are people asking the status of their request. Our standard answer is supposed to be 15-20 business days. But a lot of these are going to take much longer. We’re not allowed to change the estimate when answering clients, and we’re also not allowed to say that there’s a large volume of requests and/or that we are understaffed, all of which I think are reasonable responses. At my last job, I would have been allowed to say stuff like that. What should I do when I have to give a standard answer that is overly optimistic, if not flat out untrue, and I’m not allowed to give any reasonable explanations for the delay?

    2. Alice*

      That sucks. I don’t have any advice, just commiseration. For you and for your internal clients.

    3. Troutwaxer*

      For the moment, at least, I think you need to believe that your superiors know how to manage the other departments. If this isn’t true you’ll learn about it in time, but meanwhile I think you just need to assume that your supervisors understand the politics involved.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I feel you. I had this same issue at a job many years ago except we were supposed to lie to our external customers. One day, I gave the company line to one of the bank reps who called asking for status of their recorded deed (i.e. It has not recorded at this time. Please allow two months for this county’s filing.) – the rep actually had said recorded deed in hand. It had been mailed to the bank and our firm a couple weeks prior, but our deed paralegal who was supposed to be checking for it and then notating our file with the information just didn’t, so I sent the rep over to my supervisor to explain why we hadn’t notified the bank immediately as is proper protocol and why we were lying when all we had to do was look at the recorder’s website for this information.

          Do you think us constantly getting caught in lies made management rethink this company line? Nope. They told us to keep doing it, so anytime I did, if there was pushback, I’d send that call or email right on over to my manager to deal with – they could account for their own deception.

        2. Troutwaxer*

          I totally hear that. 3-6 months from now you’ll have a better idea what’s going on, but meanwhile…

    4. Alianora*

      That sucks. I hate having to lie to clients. So much better to set accurate expectations early instead of misleading people only to let them down later.

      When I’ve had to deal with a similar situation, I sometimes added something like “please feel free to follow up with us if you don’t hear back within the estimated time frame.” It maybe gives them a hint that there might be further delays. But realistically if your department is blocking you, there’s not a whole lot you can do.

    5. Nicki Name*

      If they just ask for the status, and don’t specifically ask for a timeframe, can you give an answer that omits any timeframe? E.g. “I can see that we did receive your request and it is currently in our queue, waiting to be picked up.”

      1. Murphy*

        Unfortunately, they’re always asking for the timeframe of when they can expect a response.

    6. Aggretsuko*

      You have to do what they tell you to do. Period. Even if it’s a lie. That’s how work works.

      I do all kinds of things that make me uncomfortable (and I have some similar issues with giving estimates of things) but it’s not my decision or call to make.

    7. Artemesia*

      Any chance you can start sending the angry emails upstream with a note that this is a consequence of not being able to give a realistic time frame. Focus on how it is hurting the reputation of the organization whereas accurate estimates might forestall this frustration. Focus on ‘angry clients because we are giving them unrealistic estimates’ rather than ‘we are frustrated with this’. Focus on ‘hurting our organization’ rather than ‘making our job difficult.’

      I have been in similar situations of not being able to be honest and yes it does really suck.

    8. JSPA*

      Anonymous note to the ombudsmans office. Normally not a fan of the anonymous note, but this is something they can and should investigate. (If it were not still summer, I’d consider the student newspaper, too / eventually.) This sort of thing leads to despair, lost grants, lost jobs, and career derailment at all levels. It’s really not OK.

      1. JSPA*

        Hmmm….Is this a state school? then you have your state representative / state senator / governor’s office as a resource, too. If it’s a public institution, and you’re a public employee, and this is all run with public funds, there may be additional implications to being instructed to lie.

    9. Lilysparrow*

      I know what you mean about feeling personally guilty for giving answers you know are inaccurate.

      I used to deal with this kind of thing by crafting a phrase that was technically true. It’s not a lot better, but it helped me live with it. Like, I wouldn’t say my boss was “out” if she was standing right there saying “tell them I’m not here.”

      I’d say, “She’s not available right now.”

      In a similar vein, perhaps you could say something like, “Our standard turnaround time is 15-20 days”

      Or, “The estimated wait is 15-20 days.”

      You’re not saying it will definitely be done by then, just that it’s the standard/estimate.

      Maybe that helps?

  44. Free Meerkats*

    IT came and left me a new hardened/rugged tablet; but she also took away my desktop computer. So, good and bad. And it’s set up in my new office, which I’ve slowly been moving into, so I guess that’s going to push me to finally move. It’s hard, I’ve been at the same desk for 28 years yesterday. Unfortunately, my phone is still at my old cube. There’s a phone in here, so I can call out, but if someone calls me, I have to get up and go answer it.

    Maybe some day I’ll get the title that goes along with the job I’m doing. Or maybe not, at least now I still can get overtime pay.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Ugh… a tablet is not a replacement for a full-on cmputer. Can you still do work okay on it?

      1. Free Meerkats*

        This is a high zoot tablet, full Windows 10, 7th Gen I5 processor, 16 GB RAM, docked it can drive two monitors. It’s better than the desktop they took away. But I don’t do anything that requires lots of graphic power. And now I can do things anywhere; it has cell connection.

        Downside, I can do things anywhere…

  45. Alex the Alchemist*

    I’m considering applying for a part-time job while I finish up grad school so I can make a bit of extra money and get a head start on my student loans. I really want to apply for a job at a well-known cosmetics retail store (upon the recommendation of some folks I know that work there). I have a lot of knowledge about the product and experience, so I don’t think that will be an issue. However, I have some chronic pain issues that have gotten better over the years, but I know there might still be some days where standing for a full shift might be difficult. Also, I don’t know how scheduling around holidays/school breaks are either (my family lives 8 hours away and I try and see them as much as I can). I recognize that this might mean changing my trips around, but I also don’t know how/when to ask about that sort of thing, since it’s not the environment I’m used to. What would be the etiquette around either of these things?

    1. Wearing Many Hats*

      If you are working in retail, you will be expected to work some holidays. If you cannot do this, you will not be hired. In my experience, field retail sucks as complying with ADA, so you may have to fight for accommodations. I managed a store and hurt my foot (at work! I put in a worker’s comp claim!) and had to wear an air cast for months. I put a tall stool behind the register so I could sit during slow times. My district manager objected until I mentioned ADA compliance.

      1. Alex the Alchemist*

        That’s what I figured about the holidays- good to know! And that sucks about ADA compliance; I might just talk to my friend who works there about how that store handles it or if it even comes up.

    2. WellRed*

      You may be able to work shorter shifts, if that fits your schedule. I worked a five hour shift on Friday nights, a full 8 hours on Saturday afternoon. Forget about going home for Christmas, especially if there are associates senior to you (and there will be). But, school breaks and the like you should have some luck.

  46. Curly Sue*

    I have a great summer intern working with me on writing grant proposals and prospect research. I’d like to get her a little gift at the end of her internship but have no good ideas. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Shelly*

      I assume this is a college student? I think any generally nice item would be great, like one of those insulated water mugs that keeps drinks cold (Zojirushi travel coffee mug or Hydroflask water bottle). You could also do a gift card to a movie theater or other experience outing. And if you haven’t already, your letter of reference will have the most long-lasting impact. Depending on what that means, you could write an email to their college intern supervisor and cc the intern stating how great they were (some colleges will have awards for their interns that you could nominate for). Or if that isn’t an option, make sure that your intern knows that you are happy to be a reference for future job and/or grad school applications.

    2. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      Gift cards / pre-paid debit cards are almost always universally welcome, IMO. If you know of a favorite restaurant, shop, online retailer, etc., I’d start there.

    3. JessicaTate*

      If there’s a relevant professional book (that she wouldn’t have through schoolwork) or a membership to a professional organization in your field (assuming she’s headed in the direction of your field and it’s not ungodly expensive) are nice career-encouragement ideas for interns who have proven their worth.

    4. Lost in the Woods*

      As a recently graduated college student, gift cards are great because they let you do something fun for yourself without feeling guilty for spending money, or having to deal with an object when you’re not super settled in your location (I really appreciated my thesis advisor’s gift of a beautiful notebook, but when I accepted it I was internally tying to figure out a a place to put it in my two boxes of books which I was shipping to my new home, 2000 miles away from where I went to school). If you know there’s something she really likes, like movies or books, then I think a gift card to, say, a movie theater or a bookshop would be really nice. Otherwise, just a card with a note telling her how much you’ve enjoyed working with her and appreciated your work would be great.

  47. MikeeBeth*

    Update from my comment last week: (Working part time at Library 1, applied for part time job at Library 2 and full time job at Library 3 where I’ve worked before)

    It is now 3 weeks after L2’s application deadline and I think that if I don’t hear from them today I ‘ll likely never hear from them. I’ve applied there in the past and never heard from them so I think they don’t follow up. I won’t hear from L3 until sometime after next week. At least at this point I likely won’t have to worry about getting an offer from L2 before hearing from L3!

    The full time reference librarian here at L1 may be applying for a job elsewhere, so maybe his job will open and I won’t have to leave. I’m not going to make any decisions based on that since I don’t know if he’ll even apply and the job opening he may apply for is at a university that is notoriously slow in hiring. I really love working here at L1, but if the job at L3 works out there’s no way I can pass it up for something that may or may not happen. I’m just waiting now, and still impatient. I do at least know how L3’s hiring process works so that makes it a little easier. All I can do at this point is wait and see.

    1. MikeeBeth*

      Just heard from my contact at L2 that they have already filled that position, but he’ll keep me posted.

  48. banana oats*

    My manager had too much on his plate so he stepped down from managing and I got placed with a new manager. My manager assured me that this would be an easy transition and that New Manager was super stoked to have me. We had a transition meeting where I explained my current projects and the management style I was used to and asked New Manager if they needed anything from me to help with this change. The meeting went well and I was less anxious about losing a manager I got along with so well.

    I had my first 1on1 meeting with New Manager this week and they did a complete 180. They told me that they did not understand why they were put in charge of me and that I could do whatever I wanted because they didn’t know what I did (and the tone sounded like they didn’t care either). I was stunned and kind of shuffled out.

    How alarmed should I be about this? Any advice?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Ew. I’d ride it out for a while before panicking. It could be that your manager thought they understood your projects while discussing them, but when thinking about the executions and processes, they realized that they didn’t know what was happening. In your 1on1, they may have been bluntly telling you that they trust you to manage your workload until they get a grip on the processes.
      This doesn’t sound like a good situation, but it is possible that the manager is so new that they are caught in the headlights. They may snap out of it in the next month or two and then settle in to being a more engaging manager. If not, you can panic then.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      They told me that they did not understand why they were put in charge of me and that I could do whatever I wanted because they didn’t know what I did

      This…is not great. You literally already talked to this person about your position and what you do, so how does he not know? I’d be wary.

    3. cmcinnyc*

      I would NOT ride this out. Once during a re-org, 5 of us were assigned to a new department head. The whole org was doing emergency staff meetings on Monday morning handing out new marching orders, but we 5 didn’t get invited to any! One of us found out where our supposed new leader was having his, and we went there. As we all walked in, 20 minutes late, leader looks up and says, “Oh no. Sorry guys. No idea what you do or what to do with you. I don’t know why they told you to report to me. You don’t.” The most senior among us got organized and found us a manager or I think we all would have been out of job by Friday.

  49. VlookupsAreMyLife*

    Y’all, I made a HUGE mistake & I’m not sure what to do now. I started a new job a few months ago & it’s been rocky to say the least. I think things are trending upward, but a new snag has come to light that’s making me think it might be time to move on.

    When negotiating salary for the job, I asked them to match a 2nd offer I had. They countered with their standard quarterly bonus opportunity, which I said the other company had, too. Long story short, we agreed to split the difference between the 2 offers after 90 days. Nothing was put in writing & they literally said, “Trust me, I’ll make you whole. I’m not going to take advantage of you.” (I KNOW, I KNOW!)

    So, guess who just had their 90-day review and… I bet you know where this is going…

    The manager did give me a quarterly bonus, which was unexpected. But they don’t remember our discussion about the salary bump. They asked me to forward the email to them which, of course, doesn’t exist because this was all done by phone.

    Again, I know better, but I made a decision to just take someone at their word & not get it in writing. At the time, I got the sense they were trying to avoid paying the recruiter extra for the increased salary, but it wasn’t that much of a bump, so I can’t imagine the fee would have gone up that much. But, they DEFINITELY didn’t want it in writing anywhere. I will say, my manager is otherwise straightforward and honest and I think they might honestly not remember things the same way. But, their initial refusal to amend the offer letter is giving me pause and now we’re exactly where I feared we might be…

    If this was the only issue at this job, that would be one thing. But, it’s been a bit of a dumpster fire from the get-go, and I’m trying to Sheezlebub this whole situation, and I’m wondering if the universe is just like, “we’re giving you ALL the signs…GET OUT!”

    So…what do I do? Is this walk-worthy? Do I suck it up & go without since it’s kind of my fault for signing the offer letter, knowing it wasn’t what I’d agreed to?

    1. Jane too*

      If you were to leave, it’s for the whole suite of issues of which the reneging on 90 day salary adjustment. It’s about the money but also if you’re able to trust the manager in the future. Salary is a major point of negotiations, for you and for your manager and especially during negotiation I find it hard to believe that this detail was innocently forgotten.

      1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

        Yep, I’ve been on the fence about the job pretty much since I started. I almost quit 2 weeks ago after an issue with a coworker escalated to HR-level (management totally had my back, but still…). The growth potential is what’s keeping me here, but this whole salary thing feels like a sucker punch to the gut. Like, how do I not take it personally at this point?

        1. JSPA*

          Management having your back is pretty big?

          I’d maybe put this down to a learning experience if you can afford to stay at this price. Or first, take it to HR as a “did manager mention it to you at the time? They said they would, so I’m wondering if you have that in writing.”

          For next time–someone who will cheat the recruiter will also cheat other people. That’s already a bad sign.

          More generally, if you don’t get it from them in writing, you can shoot them an email that says, “my understanding of our conversation is as follows (details details details) then include something that they need to acknowledge, like “and my start date is X,” ideally cc HR, and end with “please let me know of any corrections by [date]. If they don’t want to put it in writing, or they don’t want to hire you, if you put it in writing? Well, it’s not in their writing, and if they won’t hire you with the unofficial clauses in yours, then ask yourself if they’re more interested in cheating the recruiter, or in cheating you, or both.

    2. Dr Dimple Pooper*

      Sleazy move by your new company. Seems like they are calling you a liar.
      If it were me, I’d look for a new job and get everything in writing next time.

      1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

        Yeah, it was a red flag when they didn’t want to amend the offer letter. I should have listened to my guy & refused to sign it.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Well, now you know for the future – get it in writing. I’m sorry your company is doing this to you. It’s really crappy and shortsighted.

    3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’d have no qualms walking as soon as I found something else. I would not believe for a second that he forgot about this conversation.

    4. Artemesia*

      Hang in there till you have a new offer in hand and get out of there. Leaving because the organization didn’t do what they agreed to do is all the grounds you need and while yeah an email trail would be nice to have, they are in the wrong for not honoring their agreement. Hope you find something better soon and know that we have all paid our ‘stupid tax’ in life and learned from it. This was an entirely understandable error but one you won’t make again.

  50. Disposable Name*

    I feel like Alison answered this question a while back, but I wasn’t sure where to look for it in the archives (if someone knows where to find it, that would be awesome!). I started a new job recently, and so far this hasn’t become a problem but I’m worried it might. How much am I obligated to share about my hobbies/personal life outside of work with my coworkers? I’m generally a private person, and I don’t really enjoy answering questions about the things I like to do outside of work, especially since some of my hobbies are a little more off the wall and inspire a lot of questions. In my old job, I was able to keep to myself for the most part, but I plan on staying in this new job for a while and so I have a feeling people are going to eventually learn about my life and hobbies outside of work. Another added layer is that I’ve grown close to a group of coworkers who are around my age, and they’ve started talking about planning outside of work activities on evenings/weekends. I’m worried about how I’ll decline an offer to hang out when I already have plans related to my outside of work activities. Does this make me weird that I don’t like my coworkers knowing about my life outside of work?

      1. Disposable Name*

        The second one may have been the one I was thinking of, but both were helpful! For clarity, it’s not like I don’t share anything about myself at work. They know basic details about safe topics, like my family and more generic hobbies. It’s just the activities that are a little more unique that I’ve gotten lots of follow up questions on in the past (i.e. “What exactly does that involve?” “How did you get involved with that?” etc) I’m really hesitant about discussing at work.

    2. new kid*

      I have discovered over the years that people who ask questions about my life are typically really keen to talk about their own, so giving generic answers but immediately pivoting it back to the other person (and then listening in a genuinely interested manner) tends to not only create good working relationships but actually lead people to feel over time that they have a close relationship with me, despite knowing very little about me if pressed.

      I take awhile to warm up to people socially in general, so even those who have become actual friendships over time, I still knew way more about the other person before they ever knew anything truly personal about me (I just tried to make sure it didn’t feel that way!)

    3. Artemesia*

      You need the art of the cordial stranger i.e. pleasant and forthcoming and private. You can babble on about trivia — the movie you saw, or concert or art exhibit or whatever — non personal stuff without sharing anything important. If you have a pet, that can get a lot of mileage (you can make up a cat if you want for that matter) out of the cute things it does. You can be personable without being at all personal.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      You don’t have any obligation to share anything you don’t want to. But if it’s obvious that you are making an effort to avoid certain topics, or you simply refuse to participate in ordinary social discussions, you will come off as wierdly secretive.

      Maybe you’re okay with that. But it’s certainly going to put a crimp in your work relationships if people think you are hiding some kind of huge secret.

      Come up with a bland, generic version of your plans or hobbies – “game night with friends” or “some DIY stuff around the house” or “road trip” or “crafts”. That kind of thing.

      The easiest way to keep a secret is to not appear to have a secret at all.

  51. Aquawoman*

    I have a sort of pet peeve about communications and I am wondering about people’s perspectives on it. There’s a recent example, so I’ll lay it out for you. I work in a department that has a sister department that does the same work and we’re about 80 people. There are a few other departments that report to the grandboss for a total of maybe 120 or so. Most of our 80 people are skilled and well versed in teapots. A small handful do some subspecialties, including coffeepots. Coffeepots are looking to be a Very Big Deal in the near future, and grandboss wants to cross-train everyone on coffeepots. So, mandatory or almost mandatory training is being rolled out, but instead of grandboss or my boss sending out the “we all need to understand coffeepots and here’s why” message, it devolves to the line supes (of which I am one). My reports know coffeepots are looking to be a Big Deal but weren’t necessarily thinking that coffeepots would be part of their role. This seems to me to be a message that should come from either the Grandboss or my boss and his equivalent in the sister department. Agree, disagree? Perspectives? Am I just being persnickety?

    1. Aquawoman*

      I’ll also note that this is a pattern, of which this is just an example. Obviously, it doesn’t happen that often because things of importance at that level don’t happen every day.

      1. valentine*

        It should come from your level so there’s no us vs them, so you’re saying, “We’re rolling this out. This will be great for Acme because xyz and we’re looking forward to you all doing for coffee pots what you’ve done for teapots.”

        1. Aquawoman*

          I wanted to thank you for this because it made me think more about what to say in my email and helped that process.

    2. Need Some Coffee*

      the way we would do this is that there would be a standard communications package and timeline that the Grandboss reviews their direct reports, who then review with their direct reports. This keeps the messaging consistent and hopefully constrains the timeline. In my general experience, employees want to hear from their direct managers when their is a change in statement of work, required activity, etc… not from high up the chain. Sometimes it would make sense for grandboss to send a short communication to all levels, saying it will be followed up with by manager discussions. I think a lot just depends on size and complexity of the organization.

    3. RBC*

      Can you explain more about why you think this should be coming from higher up? It seems logical to me that you would roll out this message, being the direct line of communication between your reports and the higher management. I’m not understanding why you think it needs to come from the higher ups?

      2. Aquawoman*

        It’s been helpful to read all of the comments to get a different perspective. My thinking has been that I have a sense that the folks in my office (mostly professionals) like to have a sense of the mission and big picture and I feel like having that come from the person who’s creating the big picture makes more sense to me and could add to the sense of engagement with this (or whatever the substance is). Also, for consistency of message (which actually was addressed by comments/questions that us line supervisors asked that generated a memo for us to use).

  52. TR*

    I just moved to a new desk and the man in the cubicle behind me was muttering sexist stuff yesterday. At one point he said “look at the tits on that one”, and another time he said “stupid b****”. Both times I cleared my throat loudly, but I don’t know if I should say anything to him or anyone else. I don’t know him really at all, but he is fairly senior. So frustrating.

    1. ragazza*

      Uhhh, I think you should definitely report this to HR if you feel safe doing so! That is really unacceptable behavior, and consider that his attitudes probably affect the company’s overall treatment of women, if he is senior and has a say in hiring/promotion.

    2. KR*

      Yikes. If he’s muttering would you be willing to say, “Oh were you talking to me? I didn’t quite hear that.” Or maybe, “Oh wow, it sounded like you said stupid b**** from over here! I know you’d never say that at work – my hearing must be on the fritz!” But I’m petty and I know you might have to maintain a working relationship with this guy.

      1. TR*

        Our roles are not connected, but I think I feel more awkward saying anything because we have never had a normal conversation. I’ve been there for a few years, but we’ve never worked in close proximity. So it’d be like “hey, I know who you are but you probably only recognize me from the hall, but pipe down with that stuff”

    3. Wearing Many Hats*

      Please mention to HR. They can’t do anything if they don’t know and maybe your comment will be the push they need to do something about this guy.

      1. Mbarr*

        Agreed! And tell him! It doesn’t have to be a big confrontation. Turn around, say, “Hey, that’s inappropriate to say.” Then get up and walk to HR.

    4. ThatGirl*

      My first inclination would be to wheel around and say “WHAT did you just say??”

      But if you don’t feel comfortable with that you should absolutely report it to HR.

    5. Kathenus*

      In agreement with the others who have commented, please say something – to him, to HR if you prefer, or both. Especially in our current culture, we all need to speak up when we can, to help bring our culture back to a more tolerant and respectful one.

    6. Interplanet Janet*

      Without even looking up from your keyboard: “Dude, I CAN HEAR YOU.”

      Then HR if it doesn’t stop.

      1. SarahKay*

        HR even if it does stop. He may not do it to you any more, but maybe he’s still doing it elsewhere – HR need to know so they can spot patterns even if there’s nothing they can / will do about this specific incident.

      2. Lilysparrow*

        The flip side of this would be to be extra-super polite, where you lean into his cube and say, “Excuse me, I’m (Name). I’m sure you don’t realize how much your voice is carrying. But when you say things like, “Look at the tits on that one,” it’s really very distracting.”

        Bonus points for saying it loud enough for others to hear you.

        1. JSPA*

          unless he’s doing it to be creepy, in which case, he leers at you with bulging pants and says, “I don’t know what you’re talking about sweetheart, you’ve got a dirty mind” and then yells to his friend, “guess what she just said to me!”

          I’d go with, from my desk, “I can borderline hear you from here. Unless you’re talking to me, can you keep it down?” He doesn’t know what you’ve heard, he can’t accuse you of saying things, and he’s not getting a rise out of it.

      1. Not a cat*

        Please say something. I was a client of a county government agency and I was working through my issue with them at their public counter. The lady I was working with’s male co-worker, leaned over and told us to “shut up you stupid b$%^&*”. I almost fell over. The lady helping me said, “oh we just ignore him.”…I can’t imagine having to work there, with him.

  53. Always Working*

    I am trying to figure out a good way to spin why I am leaving my current job. Due to the fact I’ve been there a relatively short amount of time, understandably hiring managers want to know why I am leaving already. So far, my go-to line has been “I really enjoy working with llamas at my job, but on the rare occasions I come in contact with alpacas, I find that is a better fit for my interests and my career goals. I am looking for a job where I can apply my skills herding llamas while building a great knowledge of alpacas.” It just so happens that there are more opportunities with alpacas than llamas in my area currently, which is why I am looking to move into alpacas. Some employers eat this up, but others seem a little hesitant. This sound bite is true, however it’s not what is creating such an urgency to change jobs. The primary reasons are…

    -glaring workplace safety concerns that remain unaddressed despite multiple staff members reporting them. Without getting into too much detail, these issues have the potential to impact my health, and I don’t want to take any chances
    -issues with the accrediting body (I don’t want to be associated with a company that has accreditation issues)
    -unstable leadership that is a constant revolving door. Lack of structured policies, unclear and conflicting managerial visions
    -frequent lay-offs while I’ve been there that make me concerned about my own job security

    Which (if any of these) would be compelling reasons to give an employer? I want to say whatever is most palatable, without making it seem like I am being overly negative toward the company. I played around with saying to some employers “I am concerned by frequent turnover and want somewhere with stable leadership and clear direction.” One employer absolutely ate this up, was like “I completely understand, I’ve been through that before, I’ve been in this department for XY years so you’ll find stability here.” The other employer, not so much: he admitted that their company has been having a lot of leadership turnover as well. I try to do research as much as possible, but some of these are smaller companies where you aren’t likely to find press releases about a new person being at the helm.
    The other issue is the llama/alpaca world is somewhat small, so a lot of times I interview people at alpaca ranches who have worked previously in the llama world and know some of my current coworkers/administrators. I am scared that if I were to voice concerns about OSHA or accreditation issues that it might somehow get back to them (not that they’re unaware, but some of these people are “true believers” in the company and have voiced that want to stick with it through all this turmoil). Should I stick with my “preferring alpacas over llamas” explanation, or would this make it sound like I lack direction and decided to change subfields on a whim? Is it more convincing for me to explain the truth (of part of it?)

    1. Always Working*

      edit: that first paragraph should read “building a greater knowledge of alpacas.”

      1. Nott the Brave*

        I think you should stick to “preferring alpacas over llamas”. I don’t think it sounds like you lack direction, but found a direction that suits you more than your current role – which is perfectly true.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Job security is completely understandable and is a good reason for leaving a company.
      When I left a company because of accreditation/ethical issues, I said I was leaving because leadership was taking the organization in a direction I wasn’t comfortable with. The interviewers all seemed to read between the lines and understand the core of what I meant.

    3. Natalie*

      So, you can’t just go with the oft-recommended “new opportunities” line, you have to say something specific about why you’re leaving so soon. And it’s okay for that specific thing to be a negative thing about the company – that is often why people leave a job quickly. The advice to not bash a previously employer gets interpreted weirdly but it doesn’t mean you can never say anything not glowingly positive. Just keep your negative statements factual, unemotional, and brief.

      Of the options you presented, I would probably go with the layoffs issue first. That’s something most people understand. (Although if layoffs are normal in your field you’ll probably want to be clear that they are having an unusual amount.)

      The frequent leadership turnover is also an easy explanation. I don’t think that second interviewer was trying to tell you he didn’t accept that explanation or that you somehow failed. But even if he was, the actual result is that he gave you useful information about their organization – if leadership turnover is an issue for you, that place probably wasn’t a good fit. When escaping a bad job it can be tempting to just want to get somewhere, anywhere, but that can be a real trap. Be careful that you’re not jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

    4. Jaydee*

      I think what you’re finding so far is exactly what you’ll find no matter what your answers are. (All the things you mention seem like reasonable things to say – though maybe not all at once – about why you’re looking to move jobs). Some employers will respond really positively and others won’t. You’ll learn from some that they have similar issues to what your current employer has. These are good things to learn! Interviewing is a two way street. You aren’t just trying to convince the employer to hire you. You also want to be sure the employer is a good employer to work for.

      1. TCO*

        Agreed–I don’t see why it’s a problem that one interviewer told you that his company has been having a lot of leadership turnover. If that’s something you really want to avoid, then he did you a favor by signaling that this might not be the right fit. That’s not a bad interview outcome at all!

        1. JSPA*

          yup–you did yourself a favor by saying that too much turnover feels like a problem, and he let you know that you’d have the same anxiety there.

          If you want to, you could soft pedal by saying, “for a job with great alpaca experience I’d deal with the turnover as necessary, but for a mostly lama place to have this level of turnover, when what I’m craving is alpaca experience, the overall situation makes me ready to look elsewhere.”

    5. Lilysparrow*

      All of those are fine readings and make a lot of sense. I’d go with layoffs & leadership turnover. That’s an extremely logical reason to be job hunting, and if you’re not prepared to be a whistleblower on violations, it will protect your privacy in that way.

      I agree with Natalie and Jaydee – there’s no point getting a new job if you’re in exactly the same situation as before. It was good that the interviewer was honest about their current instability.

  54. MOAS*

    An illustration in gumption. About a week and a half ago, a guy came in to our office, saying he had an interview. When he was told that his time and date was never confirmed, he said that he came all the way from (city 1 hour commute away by train) and

    The receptionist explained the situation to me and asked if I could interview them. I found out from the recruiting team that the guy’s application had been rejected months ago. I told them that no one is available to interview them but the guy was insistent that someone interview him.

    I felt sorry for him but I was moreso mildly annoyed at that level of entitlement.

    -You do not show up to a company and demand to be interviewed
    -If they say no, you do not double down and shove your resume in their face

    Part of me felt very sorry for him as he was a little bit older and was probably using super outdated advice (only reason I bring up age range is b/c it’s outdated advice. I’m in my 30s but would this have worked in the 80s/90s?

    2. Sparkelle*

      The guy’s an entitled jerk. Showing up without an appointment and demanding an interview was never a thing in any decade.

      1. MOAS*

        I mean that advice came from somewhere right? It seems like it’s always parents giving this kind of advice. I’m wondering where it stemmed from.

        1. Penguin*

          It’s SUPER outdated, but it refuses to die. I suspect it worked (if it every actually did, in a broad fashion) in the 40s and 50s, when candidate pools were MUCH more localized, and (maybe?) got a boost in the early stages of internet access/use becoming widespread; in both those cases I could see “be aggressive and be seen” advice working IF it was coupled with hiring managers who were inexperienced or you were a candidate who understood how to use then-current tech to improve your reach better than your fellows.

          Honestly, I suspect it pushes the same sort of psych buttons as urban myths and folklore- we want it to be true, so we repeat it.

          1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

            I agree it’s outdated for office jobs. Another, hopefully relevant, perspective is that show up approach is useful/effective in restaurant/retail position from what my friend who has worked in restaurants for 10+ years has experienced.

    3. SarahKay*

      I’m in my late forties and it sounds absurd to me. He’s basically saying “I’m too incompetent to check if I actually have an interview, but please give me a job anyway”. Which – nope x 10

    4. Artemesia*

      Did he receive a communication that his application was rejected? If so, then I would give him that feedback as in ‘I am sorry but we schedule interviews, we don’t give them on demand and our records indicate that you already received word on May 12th that your application was no longer under consideration. We won’t be able to interview you now or schedule an interview.’

      I know people who have received jobs based on gumption this century — it sometimes works, but not for this guy, this day.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      I entered the workforce in the 80s and 90s and that would have been absolutely unacceptable then too. Age has nothing to do with this.

      1. MOAS*

        I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to sound ageist! I know age has nothing to do with it, but I was just wondering in what era this would have been solid advice, since people still keep using it.

        Heck, when I was job searching in 2012, I was told to go door to door with my resume and work for free and beg for chances.

        1. CoveredInBees*

          I recently saw a book from HBR that suggested offering to work for free to both get your foot in the door and to get better work assignments on the idea that employers expect paid employees to do grunt work but can’t expect it of unpaid workers. Bananapants.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      I’m not sure this tactic would have ever worked! It’s plain rude.
      Although in the 80s and 90s (before the Internet era) you did often go into the company to fill out applications unannounced. Generally, they were used to this and had them on hand and/or had a little area to fill them out and hand them in.

    7. JSPA*

      Nah. It would have been featured in the same gumption advice columns that suggest it today. But it would have been a jagoff move then, as now.

  55. Lili*

    Hi, I need some commentariat advice:
    The characters in the story are me (been in NewJob 8 months), cold caller (been at NewJob 5 months) and sales rep (been at NewJob +1 year). Cold caller and sales rep worked together at a past job and are buds. Sales rep referred cold caller for position at NewJob. Cold caller used to work in marketing.

    The problem: Twice now, sales rep has asked cold caller to join in on a marketing review meeting, to go over brainstorming and requirements for new sales material. Cold caller was not invited to these 2 meetings and sales rep did not give me a heads up that he would be joining beforehand. He just walks in late and sales rep says “I thought he could give some feedback too”. Only problem is, this drags out a 30 minute meeting to an hour. And cold caller has no idea what we are working on or talking about, becuase he’s not invovled in the feedback/review process.

    This happened a month ago, so it’s too late to bring up now. And I don’t want to be mean and tell him to leave a one-on-one meeting in the moment. What do I do? How can I phrase it without making it a big thing? Thanks for your insights!

    1. INeedANap*

      I might wait until the next meeting with Sales Rep is being scheduled, and say something like: “Just to clarify, I’m thinking that this should be a one-on-one, since Cold Caller isn’t involved in the process. Thanks!”

      Are you and Sales Rep colleagues, or does one of you hold a higher position? If you held a higher position, I’d say that if Cold Caller still shows up, you could say something like: “Oh, sorry for any miscommunication! This is a one-on-one between myself and Sales Rep.”

    2. animaniactoo*

      “I thought he could give some feedback too”

      “Hmmm – the last few times CC sat in we ended up spending a lot more time on this than I have for today. Why don’t we keep it to the two of us for today and we can loop Jack in later for any feedback he might have for us. Would that be alright with you CC?”

      Basically – you’re declining to have the agenda and participants rearranged on the spot without your input for a meeting that you are an equal partner in, while leaving open the idea that CC might have some useful stuff – you’re just not up for having it included this way without notification. And you’re pushing back in a way that should make it pretty unreasonable – in the moment – for them to say no to it.

      If Jack leaves and Sales Rep pushes back, just tell him bluntly that you came prepared for a one-on-one meeting and if he wants something other than a one-on-one meeting he simply needs to let you know that in advance so that you can all make sure you’re coming prepared to do that.

      If Jack doesn’t leave ask to reschedule the meeting for when you have a longer block of time available and that Sales Rep makes sure that CC is up to date on the project since part of what made the last meetings longer was that “we” (you and sales rep) had to keep backing up to explain things that he wasn’t aware of since he wasn’t involved in it.

      I would also maybe take a step back from the idea that you shouldn’t be making a big deal out of this. Sales rep is pretty well treating you with a lack of respect when he springs the last minute extra person who isn’t actively involved on you. So it’s kind of a big deal that he is doing that and you should feel comfortable pushing back on it as calmly as possible – even if they accuse you of making it a big deal. Because you’re not turning down CC’s participation. You’re turning down the unilateral un-notified inclusion of another person who is not part of the team actively working on this – and one who is unprepared to boot.

      I would especially keep an eye out, because I’m willing to bet decent money that SR’s goal is to get CC into the marketing side there and out of CC. You can and should decline to be steamrollered into helping that happen.

    3. Heidi*

      If there is another meeting come up, you could shoot Sales Rep an email that said, “At our last 2 meetings, you invited other people. They were not up to speed on our discussion topics, and this caused our meeting to be twice as long as it should have been. I need us to stay on schedule in the future, so please do not do this again. Thanks.”

      This might sound harsh if you’re not used to saying things like this, but it sticks to the facts. You did Thing, these were the consequences. I don’t want those consequences, so I’m asking you not to do Thing.

      1. JSPA*

        “I’d like to schedule a 1 on 1 meeting” not “a meeting.”
        If he wants to include a third person in the thinking, he can get them up to speed and brainstorm with them on their own time, not yours. (Could be that third wheel is actually the brains of their little duo, though.)

  56. Business Travel!*

    My long-distance boyfriend lives in a city I occasionally travel to for work, and I’m trying to suss out what the ettiquite is. Meals feel pretty clear-cut (company card for my food, personal card for his) but would it be gauche to let him stay in my company-provided hotel room? I could stay at his place (not as nice due to roommates and being further from work), but it seems like a waste since the company is paying for the hotel whether I’m sleeping there or not.

    Part of me thinks “It’s fine as long as the company isn’t paying for anything more than they would have.” and part of me thinks “That room is a company resource because they paid for it, and not for sharing with other people.” and another part thinks “Even on a business trip, what I do with my personal time is my choice.” and another part worries that if my coworkers who are also on the trip find out he’s staying with me I’ll be perceived as unprofessional, or more focused on spending time with him than working.

    What do you guys think?

    1. cactus lady*

      I think that if having him in your hotel room isn’t causing issues with your work, it’s fine. Most people will understand that if you’re long-distance, you’re going to take advantage of whatever time you get together.

    2. animaniactoo*

      You’re 100% fine to have him spend the night with you in the room. You’re not putting the company out in any way by sharing it with him, and what you do privately at night in your room is your business. As long as you show up prepared to work and get your work done well, there is nothing unprofessional about this at all and any co-workers who have an issue with it – that would be their issue, not yours. Normally, when you have concerns about something being seen as unprofessional by others, it would be a good idea to run it by your boss and make sure that the company doesn’t have a problem with it – but this is just such nobody’s business that I would say don’t do that and give them the impression that anyone should think it is.

      Just make sure you don’t shout the rafters down or something that would mean a call to the front desk/security which would then make it your company’s business. ;)

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Yup, he can stay. Your instincts about the meals are also correct (just wanted to give you a thumbs-up on that one). In my company, it’s even permitted for partners to tag along on trips, as long as they don’t get in the way of business functions.

    5. SezU*

      I have used husband’s company-paid hotel room, and he mine. Not an issue as long as there is no additional cost to the company.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yes, I would not do it if having a guest in the room would incur an extra charge. Some hotels will tack on a fee for extra people and others won’t.

        Or when you settled up, if there was a way to pay those charges yourself, separately. I don’t know if you can do that; I’ve either stayed alone or booked hotel rooms with a bf for two people.

    6. Artemesia*

      Are you alone on these trips? If so I don’t see a problem if you are discreet. If there are peers along, maybe not. Having the reputation of using business travel for personal reasons e.g. visit parents or partner etc can be awkward and it is worse for women in my experience.

    7. Alex*

      Totally fine. I tag along with my friend on her business trips all the time, and we’re not even a couple! No one cares (as long as I’m not interrupting any of her actual work duties, which I’m not.)

    8. 867-5309*

      There is nothing wrong with letting a partner stay in your work hotel room. As others have noted, it’s common and not as thought they’re interrupting work.

    9. Combinatorialist*

      Many years ago, my parents, who worked at separate companies, were both sent to business trips to Korea at the same time. Only one night were they in the same city, but they stayed together that night. (They told their companies and one of them didn’t get a hotel room for that night.) Totally normal — you don’t stop having a personal life just because you are working. And while work shouldn’t be facilitating your personal life and your personal life shouldn’t be getting in the way of work *during work hours*, then you don’t need to pretend you don’t have one.

    10. JSPA*

      that’s come up before, at least for meetings, alison said no. The company pays for your ability to network at odd hours and be focused on preparation, and people also chimed in that it could be strange for other participants if they heard you through the wall being romantic. I suppose that if it’s not a conference / there’s nobody else related to your job at the hotel, those would not be so much of an issue. But I believe she also said that, just as your boyfriend could not come to work to hang out in the facilities or use an in-house gym, it would be inappropriate for them to be providing space for your BF on the company dime, even if it didn’t cost extra compared to housing you alone. But that asking could make it OK.

      1. Evergreen*

        Hmm.. my takeaway from that discussion was more that spending evenings with colleagues when on trips together was relatively important, but not an every night thing, and that bringing a partner on a business trip will generally be frowned upon for that reason amongst others.

        This sounds a bit different in that the partner lives in the city already. I think asking would actually make a bigger deal than it needs to be.

    11. Dancing Otter*

      If your company’s normal practice on business trips is for colleagues to eat together to discuss business, don’t skip that or inject boyfriend into a business gathering. This goes double for meals with clients or other business contacts. You’re there primarily to work, after all.
      But when you go back to your room for the night, it’s nobody’s business if boyfriend joins you.

    12. GreyNerdShark*

      (Late as usual, timezones are annoying)

      Just don’t damage yourself being a bit too energetic in bed then try and claim it on worker’s compensation as you were “at work” because it was a company paid trip.

      Yes this did happen in Australia. Claim made, denied, appealed, upheld, appealed, denied, not sure what the final outcome was.

  57. Anonymous Wizard*

    How honest should I be when I’m interviewing for a job that really interests me but I’m not sure I’m ready to leave my current position?

    I’ve been in my job since last May (minus an 8 week mat leave), and I’m really excelling. I am learning a ton and doing really well.
    My boss is toxic but I’ve mostly stayed out of that and at least this place is now a known quantity. I know what I’ve got. Also, my boss is actively fighting for a raise for me and, despite her short comings, has treated me exceptionally well.

    I also know that I ALWAYS have options. My field is highly sought after with limited candidates and I’ve always been able to take my pick when it comes to making a career change. Even after turning down one of the offers I had last year, they came back two months later (after 6 weeks at my current job) asking if there was anything they could do to steal me. (I feel incredibly lucky for this!)

    I was contacted by a recruiter who’s hiring for an organization that is closest to my house (cutting my 40 min commute to 20). This organization is looking to expand their team and hiring several new positions. When I was on the search last year, they were undergoing leadership changes and didn’t have positions yet, but now they’re ready to grow.

    I’m interested in meeting with the recruiter and then the hiring manager to learn more, but I’m honestly not sure if I’m ready to leave. I’ve told the recruiter that I’m not actively searching but that this does sound like a great role and I’m willing to hear more. My question is how honest should I be about the fact that I don’t know if I want to leave? I definitely think it will be helpful to hear more about this other organization, their structure and approach to the work, but I don’t know if I’ll burn a bridge by having the conversations and deciding that I’m just not ready to leave yet.

    1. stitchinthyme*

      Last time that happened to me, I was completely honest. When the interviewer asked me why I was looking to leave my current company, I said, “I’m actually not; I like my current job, but I’m always keeping my options open and would be willing to leave for the right opportunity, and when I saw this it seemed like a good fit so I decided to throw my hat in the ring.” I did end up getting a job offer there (though I didn’t end up taking it).

      1. Anonymous Wizard*

        Do you feel like you burned any bridges by not taking the job that was offered? I’m afraid that if I might want to work for this company in the future, turning down a job now would reduce my chances when I might be ready to make a move.

        1. stitchinthyme*

          In this particular case? Probably not, but that’s mainly because my husband works there and is very well-regarded by his coworkers and management, so I suspect I could probably get another offer if I applied again, especially since my interview there was over 4 years ago and most of the people I talked to, including the hiring manager, are gone now. However, from all I know of the current environment from my husband, I don’t really think I want to work there.

    2. animaniactoo*

      As long as you’re upfront that you’re not actively looking but you’re there because they reached out to you and the role looks interesting, this should be fine. Remember: They reached out to you. They’re likely willing to hear that you are not sure you’re ready to make a move from where you are right now.

      But I would coach it as “well I’m not actively looking, but this sounds interesting and I’d like to know more about it” over “I’m not sure I’m ready to leave where I am”. Among other things, it’s a stronger presentation of “If you make me an offer and I accept it, it’s because I am really interested in this job and you have sold me on working for you.”

      1. Anonymous Wizard*

        Is there a different level of honesty between the external recruiter i’m working with and the hiring manager?

        To be honest, part of it is that the salary would probably have to be higher than I’d otherwise be looking for because I have it so good where I am.

        1. animaniactoo*

          I would say no, only because you probably don’t want to mention to anyone that the salary being higher would be a primary consideration, especially if what you would need would be above market rate for the role. What you might want to think about doing is that if you find out more about the role and you know the offer wouldn’t be enough salary-wise, dropping out of contention and simply explaining that after hearing more you think this isn’t the right move for you at this time and thank them for their time. You appreciated the opportunity to learn more about them and if you are actively looking at some point in the future and they have an open role, you’ll toss your hat in the ring then.

          1. Anonymous Wizard*

            To clarify, I more mean:
            I currently make $X.
            Because I’m not particularly looking to change jobs, I’d want the salary to by $X + $Y where $Y is much higher than it would be under other circumstances.

            I’m not underpaid in my current role, but I’m a high performer and my boss is fighting for a raise for me already.

            So if the company came back and offered just over $X, it wouldn’t be worth it for me to move. But if they exceed my $X+Y, then it might be even more enticing…

            Does that make me terrible? Does that even make sense?

            1. animaniactoo*

              No, it makes total sense which is why I’m saying if you get the sense that $X + $Y isn’t on the table AND would be over market value for the role (even for a high performer), you’d want to withdraw your candidacy rather than get to the offer stage – if possible.

              So, you could be clear that a higher salary would be a consideration – just not that it would be the primary consideration. You don’t want them to feel like you either only took the job for the money or only didn’t take the job because they wouldn’t pay you more than the role merited.

              It’s fine for them to come away with the idea that money might have been one of the elements in the mix – just not that it was the main one.

  58. stitchinthyme*

    Question: How do you talk about your work on a resume and in interviews when you’re not allowed to give specifics due to a security clearance or NDA?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      That is such a great question! I’m curious too, even though that has never applied to me. However… I can’t share specific client information (as in, I can’t say that I worked with this client or that client in most capacities), so I just try to be pretty vague. If you can’t talk about your job duties, is there a way to phrase accomplishments? As in, “we had a difficult and dangerous project, and I managed the team to a successful result,” or something like that? Though that doesn’t give a lot of detail.

    2. Eleanor Konik*

      It depends on the field. For example, in cybersecurity with a NDA/clearance, you couldn’t necessarily use specific metrics or name projects or what those projects do, but you could talk about what languages you used, how you were really good at clean documentation, whether you worked directly with users, etc.

      Do you have any friendly coworkers you could ask? You don’t have to tip your hand about any interviews, just be like “I like to keep my resume current so I don’t forget things.”

    3. Applesauced*

      I’ve used “Confidential (industry) Company” with a few relevant details in the description/bullet points

    4. Anonymous Wizard*

      My husband has this problem. And it’s hard. Really hard.

      The best thing you can do is to talk about how you did your work rather than what you did.

      So if you can’t say you worked on designing top secret teapot techs for James Bond spies, you can say that you led a team of 12 people responsible for a $500,000 project for 17 months.

    5. Gumby*

      Presumably the organizations with which you are interviewing are familiar with the NDA / security clearance issues so wouldn’t expect you to give specifics. In fact, not doing so is a plus since if you aren’t spilling past stuff to help get a job now, you presumably won’t spill *their* stuff if they hire you.

  59. Sadness Pt 2*

    My coworker (and I thought friend) accidentally sent a message about me to me that she intended to send to someone else. I don’t want to repeat it here because I talk about AAM all the time, but it was pretty mean and unkind which is (I thought) out of character for her. I understand venting (we all do it from time to time) but this seemed so out of left field, I was sitting and working quietly at my desk when the message popped up so I’m not sure what triggered it. She knows I saw it and spent the entire day apologizing to me and I can tell she’s upset about it, but only because she got caught. How do I move forward from this? I have no interest in sharing anything personal with her anymore but our cubes are right next to each other and we work closely together on a daily basis so we need to have a good working relationship. She also knows I struggle with often feeling unliked at work because I’m socially awkward, and it’s one of the things we’ve bonded over in the past and we’ve been working together for more than six years, so this really stings.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Hmmmm. How do you feel about the idea of asking her what triggered that? Listening, seeing how you feel after that? And at a minimum being really careful about any personal info you share with her for a good long while?

      1. valentine*

        I would do this off the clock, via personal email or text, if you already communicate that way, if you think you’d be really upset or she’d be more likely to be evasive in person, especially if she, too, would get really upset and those energies would feed off each other and build. Then, I’d be pleasant about work, and no more personal stuff.

    2. Artemesia*

      I would be rethinking whether this was ‘out of character’ for her or if you just got a real glimpse of her character. If it was narrowly focused on a single event that annoyed her — okay — but if it was a general trashing of you –well you just go a look at what she thinks. Protect yourself.

      1. Avasarala*

        This. I don’t think you do move on from this. Your trust has been damaged and she needs to do more than apologize with words, she needs to demonstrate effort to rebuild your trust in her and prove that she’s not continuing to trash talk you behind your back while you force yourself to forgive her because you “need to have a good working relationship.” If you need to have a good relationship and she damaged it, let her fix it. I would be coolly polite and cautious for a while until I could evaluate if this was a moment of frustration or a glimpse of her true character.

    3. Sam Sepiol*

      I don’t have any advice but I wanted to say I’m really sorry to hear that. I can imagine how much it hurts. Jedi hugs.

    4. Ron McDon*

      I’ve done this before, I’m ashamed to admit.

      I vented via email to a friend about my co-worker, co-worker saw my friend’s reply and was able to read/print off the entire conversation…

      I apologised profusely but things were awkward between us afterwards, and I left for another job as soon as I could.

      In my case, it was a slight annoyance with something my co-worker did/said, I was in a bad mood that day so it was amplified, and I wanted some sympathy from my friend, so exaggerated the situation slightly for comedic effect.

      I felt awful about it afterwards, and when I re-read what I’d written was genuinely shocked at what I’d said – I didn’t mean some of it at all!

      It was a very good lesson that I should only vent in person where there’s no possibility of being overheard, and shouldn’t exaggerate…

      It’s possible that your colleague similarly exaggerated/was having a bad day, and possibly doesn’t mean most of what she said, so I wouldn’t feel that she has secretly been harbouring bad thoughts about you.

      I understand how hurtful it must have been for you to see that though.

  60. Blue Tinted Lenses*

    TLDR: I am looking for ideas on how our team can approach our Grandboss about terminating a freelancer.

    My team and I develop and produce Teapots. We have very tight deadlines and our Teapots have to meet very stringent standards before they are shipped to Teapot Lovers and Tea Drinkers all over the Teapot Universe. We are gearing up for High Tea Season and we need some extra help in our Teapot Development team.

    Sansa was hired on in a freelance capacity as a Senior Teapot Developer and she looked great on paper. When speaking with her about her previous work and some of the challenges she has faced, she impressed us with her depth of knowledge and some of the approaches she had taken or recommended in the past to optimize Teapot Development. Our team was exited to have Sansa on board and we thought we could have her up to speed and on projects post haste.

    However, we have since learned that Sansa can talk the talk, but she cannot walk the walk. Her approach to Teapot Development is Junior level at best. Our line manager (who unfortunately doesn’t have hire or fire authority) has been very direct and kind when providing feedback to Sansa on everything from attendance, focus during important meetings, Teapot Development Standards and Best Practices, Teapot Development Tools, expectations when it comes to Teapot Development deadlines… All the while encouraging Sansa to come to her and to us with any questions or concerns, so that we can help her get up to speed.

    We have escalated to our Grandboss Cersei and Cersei has also had a couple of conversations with Sansa about her performance. However, nothing has really changed on Sansa’s part and it doesn’t appear to us that anything further is happening.

    We have also discovered that Sansa is a good friend with Catelyn, who is in a parallel Teapot Production department and who is a Great Grandboss. So while Cersei doesn’t report to Catelyn, Cersei may also need to tread carefully.

    Our team is beyond frustrated and we are considering approaching Cersei as a team. However, we’re uncertain how to do that and how to present our concerns (and documentation) in a way that is also direct and kind.

    1. Kathenus*

      Approaching as a team is a great idea. I’d suggest not focusing on terminating Sansa, but focusing on the specifics and documentation you mention, and specifically the impact on the business (delays, errors, others having to step in and defer other work to do so, whatever). And I think you want to shoot for direct and professional, not direct and kind. Keep communicating specifics on performance issues and their impact, and hopefully the fact that your bosses have to hear about it repeatedly will eventually result in Sansa being managed up into a better performance or managed out.

    2. Sam Foster*

      Document, document, document. Make sure you have the data to prove she is not functioning at the appropriate level and that appropriate coaching, etc. has taken place and leave the data with the appropriate boss to act. If it is necessary to build a layer of protection for the staff recording the data, print the document out and hand boss a physical copy. Boss with firing authority should be able to act on data and use data to hopefully mitigate any personal relationship based blow back. If the blow back happens that’s, unfortunately, way above your grade and needs to be handled by those who can actually manage it.

  61. Melody Pond*

    I posted last fall, asking for advice about applying to a junior data analyst position (I didn’t have any SQL experience at the time, but had extensive experience in Excel that I thought would make SQL easy to pick up, and was wondering how to play that up in my application).

    I’m happy to say that, 8 months into this new job, SQL has indeed been a total breeze to pick up largely because of what I already knew how to do in Excel. I just had my mid-year review this week, and my manager rated me as exceeding her expectations in developing my own SQL knowledge and contributing to our team’s production queries. I’m absolutely loving my new job – it’s amazing feeling like I’m finally in the right job for me and also finally with the right company. I feel totally lucky to be here.

    So now I have a new question – my manager told me in our mid-year discussion that based on my performance now, assuming I stick with this field (which I plan to), that she anticipates me being someone who eventually rises to the level of leading a team and managing resources like she does, currently, if that’s something I’m interested in. That was great to hear – but it’s got me thinking about whether I ought to seek graduate-level education in the long run, if I’m hoping to be a leader or at least a high-performing SME in data analytics.

    For those who are higher-level data analysts or data scientists – do you or other people at your level tend to have Master’s degrees pertaining to your field? What about graduate level certificates? How much impact do you suppose such higher education has on things like a person’s earning power and, I guess, overall status/respect in the field?

    1. red collar*

      I’m also curious about this. I see most higher-level Data Analyst/Scientist positions require a Master’s or PhD.

      If you don’t mind sharing, could you talk about what you do on a typical day as a junior data analyst? I want to apply for junior data analyst positions but I’m pretty intimidated by the shortlist of software and languages you need to know on most postings.

      1. Melody Pond*

        Sure thing – though, I feel I should qualify my answer. I’ve heard that the duties performed under the heading “data analyst” can vary WIDELY by company, so my experience is probably not standard.

        I work for a large health insurance company, and I’m part of a team that processes monthly revenue – my entire reason for being is to allocate every dollar of revenue down to an individual member, so that other departments can use that data for profitability reporting and their own analytics. My job is very production/process oriented, which was good for me, because I do better on steep learning curves with processes than I do with projects. I work with a lot of accounting data, and most of the major SQL components of my job already exist as formal “production SQL” queries/jobs/packages that are stored in a central accessible location – I just have to execute the saved script most of the time.

        But I knew that I wouldn’t stop there – this was my first job ever having access to SQL and being able to write queries against databases, and I was pretty confident that if I just had the access, that my natural curiosity would take over and it wouldn’t be long before I was writing my own queries. That has turned out to be the case, and I’ve now written several major pieces of code, some of which aid only me, and some of which aid my entire team.

        So in terms of technical skills, I’ve just used SQL, fairly intermediate/advanced Excel, and some Visual Basic. This particular job didn’t require any other programming languages, though my accounting background has definitely been helpful. But that’s because this particular role deals heavily in accounting/finance-related topics.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I got a MS in Data Analytics just so I could apply for these jobs. I had the skills, but I couldn’t get past the robo-screeners. My program was focused on technical aspects and wouldn’t help in the managing arena. If you are planning on sticking with your current employer, it may not be necessary to go back to school. It sounds like they are supporting you and will provide any specific classes you need to succeed.
      But, it is good to think about the future. Employers go ga-ga over MS degrees and it will make job searching easier when you want to move on and, as you mentioned, it comes with a greater salary. If I were in your shoes, I’d take a look at online programs that you could take at your own pace. And many of the current degrees incorporate IT certifications (Oracle, SAS), so if you start stacking up some certs through your current job, your MS degree may be 1/4 complete before you even start!

    3. BI Engineer*

      I work in Business Intelligence as a developer, not an analyst so slightly different. My recommendation would be to get certifications, check out the Microsoft certifications, vs. going to graduate school. That plus proven work experience implementing projects will look good to future employers.

    4. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I’m in the middle of a PhD program for this reason! Every single member of my team during my masters internship had PhDs, so I went this route. However, my peers in my masters program had no trouble finding jobs afterwards. I do know someone who entered the workforce after a PhD at a higher level than the people who started with just masters degrees. I do think at some companies your progression can stop completely without an advanced degree.

    5. EggEgg*

      I’m in an analytics job, but at a nonprofit that does a lot of internal hiring so it was easy for me to slide into this position from my direct service job. Looking at the places I want to go next, though, I think I’ll definitely need my master’s. I’m planning to get it online through WGU because I’ve heard great things about them as a school and their structure looks like it will work for me.

    6. SilverBunny*

      I am a Senior Data Analyst and did get my MS in Business Analytics, but that was more to learn new programs and methods of analysis (in this field things change so fast. Plus my employer paid for my tuition). I think depending on how skillful you are, a Masters or PhD isn’t really necessary for the Analytics field. But if you want to go the more statistical/machine learning route of Data Scientist than I would definitely get a Masters degree. So it really depends on what you want to focus on, working with databases and writing queries for reports as a Data Analyst doesn’t need a Masters just experience and skills/certifications. But Data Scientist positions are much more skewed toward statistics, programming, and modeling so more formal education is generally a requirement for those positions.

    7. Jane too*

      Sometimes job postings for data analysts have degree requirements at the masters level, but I think this is changing. In addition to SQL, to advance you may want to look into R, python and data visualization depending on your inclination. I would recommend looking into data science bootcamps (Flatiron, General Assembly or others depending on your city/market) and you’ll see that these short courses are becoming more prevalent as a way to get needed skills. Data analysts/scientists are the job of the future if not now because of the amount of data we’re generating. After learning to code, it’s about having the problem solving skills through practice to become proficient. With experience, you’ll become senior level. Formal education/masters level I think is less important for this field, but it does depend on your goal (if you would like to do research).

  62. cactus lady*

    Is it unprofessional to take a little vacation while out on medical leave? I’ll be cleared to travel before I’ll be cleared to go back to work and my SO has many travel perks from their job that we’d like to take advantage of. But I’m worried about the optics of this if/when word gets ’round the office. How would you feel if it were your coworker out on medical leave, taking a vacation?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I wouldn’t have an issue with it, especially if it was a weekend getaway kind of thing. It gets touchy if you were out on leave for back surgery and then went treking around DisneyLand for a week. Or if you took a 2 week trip around the Mediterranean. I guess the difference is if you were taking a spur of the moment “I need to relax” kind of trip, or if it looks like it was planned in advance and the medical leave was a cover-up.
      But do you need to tell anyone that you went on a trip? I’d just keep it to myself and do what you need to do to recover. Your health and recovery are your business.

      1. Joielle*

        Yeah, I think it depends on what the medical leave is for and what type of travel it is. If it’s the kind of thing where your coworkers could be like “wait a minute, their back is recovered well enough to go hiking but not to come to the office?” then I think there could be an issue… but if the trip is less strenuous than the job, or a different kind of strain (like, you’re out because of a concussion so you can’t do mental work but can still do physical activity) then I think it would be fine.

        But, like AndersonDarling says, can’t you just not tell people that you’re traveling?

      2. cactus lady*

        Basically it would be a few days at a fancy beach resort that’s a short flight away. SO has a free stay (upgraded!), plus free plane tickets, and we are both kind of like… if I’m going to be laying around anyway, and if SO is going to be off work taking care of me, why not do it at a fancy beach resort? Medical leave is for a surgery that will be SUPER OBVIOUS that I am recovering from (no way to hide this one). It will prevent me from doing computer work for 2 months and that’s why I’m on medical leave. Ideally I wouldn’t tell anyone we are traveling, but I have a couple coworkers that I’m friends with outside of work too and it would be hard to keep it completely out of my social circle if we went on a trip.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          I think this is reasonable, and knowing these extra details it would be okay to take the trip. If your coworkers are in your social circle enough to know about this, can you organically explain your reasoning to them to kind of nip it in the bud, or would that be weirder?

          If you can’t use a computer, you can’t work. That definitely doesn’t mean you can’t lay in a lounge chair on the beach. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

        2. Eleanor Konik*

          Yeah if it’s like, both arms are down because you had double wrist surgery, but you want to hang out a beach in a cast that prevents you from working, I say go for it. You clearly aren’t faking, lol.

            1. The Ginger Ginger*

              You could post a pic of you on the beach in your casts or something. With caption like “convalescing in the sun, and trying not to get tanlines from my casts”. It shows, yeah, I went on vacation, but I did so in casts, so I couldn’t be working anyway. Just a little…narrative control(?) on social media, lol.

              1. valentine*

                You could post a pic of you on the beach in your casts or something.
                This especially seems like horrific optics to me.

            2. Eleanor Konik*

              Well in that case, I definitely say as long as you’re framing it carefully (i.e. don’t brag about it and make your coworkers jealous) you should be fine. It’s the sort of thing I’d, like, mention to close friends without swearing them to secrecy, i.e.

              “We’re actually going to go away, husband’s work will fly us out to X while I recover. Husband is hoping the resort atmosphere will make it easier for him to help care for me, and it seemed silly to turn down the trip when it’s free and I can’t work like this anyway!”

            3. JSPA*

              swelling when flying…sand working in under the cast…your own doctor and maybe your own insurance not working wherever, if something goes wrong…eh, depends how close / how easy, I guess?

        4. Clisby*

          I don’t really understand this. I’m friends with plenty of people who know nothing about my vacations unless I make a point of telling them. Why not just go on the short vacation, don’t post about it on social media, and if anybody asks, say something like “Oh, we took a break out of town”?

    2. INeedANap*

      It would depend a lot to me on what was going on with the workflow while co-worker was out. If it was putting extra stress onto my workload, I would probably feel… not great about a co-worker on medical leave vacationing if it ever came to light. Intellectually I would understand that cleared to travel isn’t the same as cleared to work, but even so, I’d probably be left with a bad taste in my mouth.

      However, if I wasn’t covering any of the workload, I probably wouldn’t mind or care in the slightest.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      In my view, if you’re not cleared for work, you’re not cleared for work. Maybe don’t post any photos to social media of yourself gloating under a tropical sun, fruity drink in hand. But just because you’re on medical leave doesn’t mean you have to stay in your house.

    4. Artemesia*

      Keep if off facebook. If it is brief, it shouldn’t be a problem. But don’t noise it around.

    5. JSPA*

      I remember but can’t find a question about someone fired for going on vacation while on medical leave. But if you’re literally cleared for one but not the other…might be different. That said, travel is so hard on the body in so many ways, I’d wonder if it would really do me much good, for a wide variety of medical leave sorts of things, to travel.

    6. Hope*

      Make sure you’re cleared specifically for air travel if you’re flying. Some surgeries don’t do well with pressurized cabins in the days after post-op.

      Beyond that, I say just don’t post pics.

  63. KayEss*

    Had a teammate offer me his viewpoint on something by prefacing it with “I’m gonna give you a hot tip. This will probably sound condescending or patronizing, but it’s really not.” Thoughts on how to refrain from unhinging my jaw and swallowing him whole into the void, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?

    (The actual information genuinely wouldn’t have been condescending or patronizing if he hadn’t prefaced it that way, but uh… yeah.)

    1. sacados*

      Hooooly.
      That’s right on up there with “no offense, but…”

      Just ugh.

      If it works with your general demeanor, I think it could be fun to respond to something like that with,
      “Have you ever noticed how when people call their advice a hot take, it automatically makes them sound so much more arrogant? Isn’t that funny!”
      The key here is to say this with a big ol smile and as cheerful, upbeat– dare I say, bubbly — demeanor as possible. And then walk away/change the subject.

      1. KayEss*

        This was over chat so I just let it slide without comment, but if it had been in person I definitely wouldn’t have been able to control my raised eyebrows of “wow, dude.” Probably in combination with something like, “okay then, let’s hear it,” in the tone of someone entertaining the contribution of a precocious toddler.

    2. 867-5309*

      I could see someone doing that if they weren’t a manager and didn’t want to come across as bossy. I wouldn’t read too much into it.

      1. KayEss*

        I think he was probably worried about sounding like he was telling me how to do my job, but the “hot tip” phrasing especially is like nails on a chalkboard for me because I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used non-sarcastically.

        I’m trying not to hold it against him and I’ll probably be over it in a week or two… it was just kind of an additional shitty moment stacked on top of what has been a challenging work week for my self-confidence.

        1. JSPA*

          proving yet again that tone does not carry well in writing, for most of us. I’d give him a pass for what seems to have been bad execution of a good intention, unless he pulls it in person. You could alternatively write back and say, “the subtance of your message was actually helpful and well taken. However, hot tip–and I don’t mean this to sound patronizing–but your ‘hot tip / patronizing’ intro landed really badly, to the point where I nearly didn’t read what followed. How does it land with you, when it comes at you? Just as bad?”

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I think it fits into the general category of calling something out that wouldn’t have been an issue if it hadn’t been called out. Like the boss trying to let the anonymous survey commenter know up front that they weren’t in any trouble. Or saying “Don’t be mad” before anything at all.

      I would just give him an odd look and feel grumpy about being told that if I felt he was being patronizing that *I’m* wrong. Hopefully it was a one off and this guy isn’t usually like that.

      1. KayEss*

        I definitely would not have been able to avoid a weird look if this was in person, but it was over chat so I decided to just let it slide. He’s a guy I usually like (I joked with my partner that my third-favorite colleague may be about to rank up, since this dude was #2 and now I’m feeling stung by him) and I’d ultimately rather assume there was nothing meant by it than get entangled in whatever drama might be sizzling beneath the surface.

        … Our boss actually warned me that this guy sometimes has problems sharing control on projects and can be overbearing, and what I’m working on now is taking on a type of project role he used to cover. But I’m not here to manage his feelings around that, so he’s gonna keep getting polite disengagement if he lets jabs like that slip out.

    4. Mephyle*

      “Can I give you a tip? Your tip was good and I appreciated it. And it actually wasn’t condescending or patronizing, but prefacing it like that sort of made it weird.”

  64. Marion Ravenwood*

    So, I got asked to resign on Monday. Long story short, I’ve not been doing well at work (not helped by going through a divorce, being under pressure to find a new home etc), and I basically thought I could cope with it so didn’t take the help offered, and ended up making too many major mistakes. They’ve put me on gardening leave, and will pay me my next month’s salary, but I am basically gone as of now.

    In all honesty, it’s kind of a relief. I did like the people and some aspects of the role, but overall I think it was a bit too big of a jump for me (I went from being a comms/PR/social media bod in a team of 15 to being the sole person responsible for comms, events and marketing in an organisation of 10, but with similar-sized projects to the sort of thing that would have had an entire team working on them in my old job). Lesson learned to ask for help and take what’s offered, albeit the hard way.

    So I’m back looking at stuff halfway between, or at least a little more specialised in the stuff that I like. I’m signed up with agencies and applying to new jobs, including one that is basically my dream job and another I have an interview for on Thursday, having taken Alison’s advice on writing a cover letter and CV, so things are looking OK right now.

    However, I do have a couple of questions about my CV and applications, which sort of relate to some of the letters that have come in this week:

    – I have a side hustle (writing music reviews/interviews for a website) that I’ve been doing for about three years now. I love it, would do it full-time for a living if it paid remotely well enough, and I think it’s been a big part of helping me hone my writing and time management skills. My question is: should I put it on my CV and/or mention it at interview? Or is it too much of a ‘hobby’ to include? (The ‘dream job’ I have applied for is in the music industry, so not sure if that would also create a conflict of interest or serve as an advantage.)
    – I’m in the UK, and a lot of job applications here, rather than asking for a CV and cover letter, will instead ask for you to complete an application form (either in a Word document or via an online portal) with your job history, education etc, and then a supporting statement. Previously I’ve treated this as an opportunity to outline how I fit the role (eg ‘I have experience of X. For example, in OldJob I did Y’), but now I’m wondering if I should instead treat it as the equivalent to a cover letter and write in the style Alison suggests, as it clearly seemed to have worked for the other job I applied for. What would you do?
    – Lastly, if you know you weren’t good at your last job, how would you word your CV? I did achieve some things in the role (developed and began implementing new comms strategy, got praised for my writing, gained social media followers etc) but equally I know I didn’t excel so am struggling a bit with how to present it. I was there eight months, so not really sure I can leave it off my CV without getting asked questions, especially as there’s already a year gap before the second-to-last job I had (when I was backpacking and then job-hunting).

    Thanks in advance for your help all!

    1. Marion Ravenwood*

      In relation to the last question, I should also add that I was at the job before this one for five years, and my two jobs before the backpacking were for 18 months and two years respectively. (Before that, I was at university.)

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I say include the side hustle writing. It’s related to PR/Social Media in the writing component, and it’s related to the music industry. Just keep in mind that it becomes a defacto writing sample if it goes on the resume. I’d include it in a relevant skills/experience section and put a link to some of your best articles if you think strong writing will support your candidacy.

    3. sacados*

      For the writing, absolutely include it!
      I think how much weight/space it gets (whether it goes into Relevant Experience or Other Experience section) should depend on how relevant it is to each particular job — but you’re getting paid for it, so it’s definitely not a hobby!

    4. Kittens Kittens Kittens*

      Include the side hustle.

      For your application if they ask you to cover every point in the spec then you need to do that. By all means write it in a more Alison way, but remember these are often scored and check you’re still covering all the criteria.

    5. JSPA*

      If you can define and frame for yourself what part of the job didn’t work for you (rather than framing it as you not working for it) that might help. I mean, if you did all of those things well, but floundered because you had trouble moving forward without a team to bounce ideas and deadlines off of, then go ahead and brag about the parts you finished, even if they didn’t go live when they were supposed to, or the ads covered the art, or you didn’t respond to emails in a timely manner (or whatever). If you want to refer to something as having been a “beta version” because the version you ended at was not something you’d have wanted as the finished product, you can call it that.

  65. vacation anon*

    I only have three and a half more hours until my two week vacation starts and time has NEVER MOVED SO SLOWLY IN MY LIFE.

  66. ragazza*

    So, I got laid off this week. In some ways it’s a good thing, and if it had to happen, this was the best way possible. I’m technically employed for a couple more months but it sounds like I’m not expected to do much, then I got several months of severance. To give some context about the big picture, I’m in my late 40s, no kids, my living costs are stable (no huge debts other than my mortgage), and my financial situation is pretty good (I have a cushion even beyond the severance). I’m trying to sort out my priorities and plan out the next few months. Since I don’t need another job asap, I’d like to take this opportunity to work on some personal projects I kept putting off, but I also don’t want to be caught short when the $$ runs out. I’m already starting to do some networking and making contacts, but I’d also like to enjoy this time a little, as who knows when I’ll have this kind of stretch of free time again?

    I’m thinking while I’m still “employed” I’ll work on my personal stuff, I might take a few weeks off to travel after my official employment ends, and then really dig into the job search once I return, around mid-October/early November. I’m a little worried about ageism, but a couple friends my age in my field have related their experiences and they have definitely increased my confidence that I’ll be able to find something good.

    Anyway, all this to say: what do you think my best plan of action is moving forward?

    1. Dr Dimple Pooper*

      How senior is your job? Usually the more senior you are, the longer it takes to land the next job.
      I’d start the job search now if it were me and keep your discretional spending to a minimum.

    2. Artemesia*

      I’d start the job search now and negotiate start date if you are unusually successful. It can easily take months.

    3. 867-5309*

      Enjoy the next two months. Then begin the job search in earnest after that.

      I share the concern as noted in the comment above about ageism but you can keep them listed as a current employer through severance, so it’s fine. (I’ve been laid off four times in my career.)

    4. JSPA*

      The default is that it’s easier to apply while the job on your resume is current; you can always set your availability further in the future. Also, if you were let go, it may be helpful that you can steer them away from contacting your current boss, if you have other good recent-past references. None of that means you MUST do applications ASAP–do however know that this is what you are giving up, if you do the personal projects before the applications, and make that conscious decision (or not).

    5. Mellow*

      I’d search for work now. If you’re that concerned about your age being against you, and if your instincts are correct, it could take you longer to land something else than what you expect. Why risk transforming your current comfortable situation into one of uncertainty and financial instability? Doesn’t seem worth it.

  67. Pam Beesly*

    Is there a tactful way to speak to your boss about moving from full-time to part-time? Ideally, I’d like to ask this sometime between the fall, and the end of 2019.

    For some background: I’ve been considering this for quite some time, and am certain this is something I want to do. My husband (a PA) recently got a job at one of the nation’s top hospitals, along with a 40% raise, and unbelievable insurance/benefits. We’ve always been wise financially, but his new job truly allows us the opportunity for me to work part time. I’ve struggled with depression over the last year, and feel like I would really benefit by spending my afternoons doing something I love – that is, volunteering at a local animal shelter. My husband is fully supportive of this decision. Right now, I work 7:30-4:30, and would ideally like to work 7:30-1:30.

    My job consists about 75% data entry (specifically, entering contracts/deviated pricing into our system, SAP), and I manage that well. I’m very efficient, and am absolutely certain me moving to part time would not affect my productivity. Most of the data I’m entering has a deadline (for instance, I’ll receive, say, 500 contracts at the beginning of a month that have to be entered by the end of the following month). So essentially, I always have about two months to enter a large volume of contracts, and always finish entering these with time to spare.

    The other 25% of my job is customer service, which is the only reason I could see my boss having hesitation to me working part time (I’d obviously still be available to do this 5 out of 8 hours a day). However, I am the secondary person in this role. While I take phone calls and enter customer orders, we have a primary customer service person who does the majority of this work; I basically only handle customer service requests if he is already on another call. Also I think it’s important to note that when I started at my company four years ago, I was the only customer service person, and it remained that way for three years, until we hired the now primary customer service person so that I could take over contracts (so, it’s not something that can’t be done. I never felt overwhelmed being the only customer service person).

    I think my boss perhaps knows that this ask is coming eventually. She is aware of my husband’s new job. She also knows (because I felt comfortable sharing with her why I was taking time off), that I’ve had two miscarriages over the past two months, which translates into her knowing we are trying to have children and I may not want to work full time at that point anyway.

    Has anyone gone through a similar situation? If so, how did you ask your boss?

    1. BeenThere*

      This must be the week for questions like this! My question below is similar. I’ll be watching out for any answers you get to yours. Good luck!

    2. EddieSherbert*

      Oh my gosh, I’m a bit jealous. I currently volunteer with a animal shelter outside of work (evenings, weekends), but really wish I could do some stuff during the day. One shelter near me has volunteers trained to do tours/walkthroughs/demos for local elementary school classes and Scout troops Friday afternoons 1-2x a month and I think that would be so fun to do!

      To me, that sounds like a very reasonable ask; I would maybe word it in a way that doesn’t quite sound like you have a bunch of down-time at work just in case their response is “no”… but now they’re concerned that you’re not doing enough work normally. They may also suspect you’re going to be job-hunting if they say “no.” So I suppose you just need to know your company/manager and feel comfortable with them knowing that is your goal.

      If they do say no, you obviously could actually job hunt for part-time work instead!

      I hope it works out great; I love love this idea!

      1. Pam Beesly*

        Oh, that sounds so fun! I wonder if my local shelter does something similar. Thanks so much for the advice!

    3. SezU*

      I did do this. I was a full time legal secretary in a firm with all full timers. Someone had previously asked (really, demanded) a change to her hours and was shot down. So I wasn’t even thinking they’d grant my request, but they sure did. I think the reason I got it and she didn’t is: 1) I asked, did not demand and 2) I made it as convenient to them as possible.
      Our workload tended to be very heavy on Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays. Rather than ask to work my days mid-week, to give me all the long weekends, I offered to work M,Th, F. And take on Tu, W. They totally bought it. They even said they were surprised when I offered Monday and Friday. At any rate, I continued to earn vacation based on my reduced hours, and get all the regular benefits. I just was down to part time hours.

      Bottom line: Make it as convenient for them as possible, not all about you and and what you want. Good luck!

      1. Pam Beesly*

        Thanks for the advice! That’s a good point on the convenience factor. Like I said, my ideal schedule would be 7:30-1:30 M-F, but I’d certainly be flexible in moving into an ‘8 hours a day M/W/F’ setup if they’d be more into that.

    4. Interplanet Janet*

      I’ve done it a couple of times now.

      Before you do it, think about it from their perspective and come up with all the objections you can. What kinds of problems is this going to cause for them. Then brainstorm some possible solutions. Write all that down.

      Then ask for an in-person meeting, and just be direct. “I’m wondering if there’s any possibility the company would consider allowing me to work part time instead of full time. I was thinking of around 60% time.”

      If your boss doesn’t say anything, you can go on and talk about some of your thoughts on how this could be managed, but make it clear that these are just ideas you’ve come up with, not that you’re trying to make decisions for them. If it’s true, I’d say, “I’m imagining a shortened workday, like 7:30 to 1:30 daily, but I’d be open to some other schedule if that would work better.”

      Be prepared for them to need to think about it. Offer to write up your thoughts about potential problems and solutions. Be prepared to discuss what happens if you decide you want to come back full time. At one job, it was made clear to me that they would like me to come back full time; at another, I was told that once I went part-time, full-time was not a guarantee in the future.

      Good luck!

      1. Pam Beesly*

        So much great advice, thank you! I will definitely keep all of those factors in mind.

    5. LNLN*

      When I wanted to change from full time to part time hours, I told my boss what I wanted. I had done research, so I knew how the number of hours I wanted to work would affect my benefits. I was flexible about when the new schedule would begin. I told them my ideal hours (I later proposed a change to my hours to help my team with a high demand for assistance on Mondays). I was a top performer on my team and my boss was aware they were in danger of losing me if I could not go part time. Fortunately for me, my request for part time hours fit in with my team’s business needs and I was working reduced hours within a month. Good luck!!

    6. JSPA*

      Check what part time options they have given to others in the past two or three years, if any. Many workplaces cap at different levels, depending on which ones get benefits or require them to offer medical coverage (which you probably don’t need, but they may still have strong opinions). Would you be OK doing 20 hours a week / losing benefits? Remember that if they bring in a part-timer to cover for you, they’ll be looking at benefits and health care issues for them as well. Consider, if they want to divide your job, rather than giving all of the customer service to the newer customer service person, would you be comfortable dividing up the data entry, yet still being responsible for the end product?

      Knowing your recent past medical problems (for which, great sympthy) is there a possibility that your boss would ask if you instead wanted to plan for some time off to heal / mourn / regroup? If so, what would you say to that? Would you be comfortable training a temp to handle the data entry, for example?

      I expect they will be very open to, “I need to do something different for a while,” but exactly what form and format would work for them and for you is something to explore.

  68. E*

    I work for a fairly high-profile elected official. due to a combination of internal and external politics, our office has struggled to get any of our legislative and policy priorities off the ground (I don’t work in DC and this doesn’t have anything to do with Trump). Does anyone have suggestions about how to keep my own morale up during this period? I am pretty junior, and It’s depressing to see our office struggle. I’m having a hard time finding enough work to do too – I’m trying to move my own projects forward but they all stall out due to senior-level interpersonal conflict.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Do you have any hobbies you can throw yourself into? If so, I’d spend all my free time focused on those things so you’re not obsessing about your lack of work during the day. Also, if you can do professional development during work hours, you may find it worthwhile to take an online course or two so you won’t be completely bored in your day job.

  69. NaoNao*

    Help and advice navigating a startup environment requested. I’m a training designer on a team of two (one other training professional, rest are ops/customer care, we’re embedded in that team) for a telecommunications/tech co.

    My startup is a little different in that it’s an experimental division of a large, established company so we have a parent co. and are more stable and well funded than a typical startup. We don’t have keggers or other stereotypical startup stuff like Nerf wars, etc.

    However, the challenges are:

    Small staff

    Constantly changing and increasing duties/projects/fires to put out

    Everyone is their own authority (no real approvals processes or any processes really!)

    Max capacity work at all times

    Juggling priorities –everything is “urgent”

    Very short time frame, rapid iteration is only method

    Some of these apply to any work environment, of course, but this world is new for me, so any advice would be very welcome. Thanks all.

    1. BeeGee*

      I haven’t come from a startup, or from tech for that matter, but I can relate to working for a small, independent company and dealing with similar issues.

      Three things you need to do to make things more manageable are communication, organization, and documentation. It’s vital to make sure that frequent communication exists at the company, whether it’s about who is responsible for what tasks, how projects are coming along, if work loads are too heavy, and nailing down what items are higher priorities. This is also why organization is vital, I recommend having a Slack or other communal work board so that everyone can better understand steps involved and so things don’t fall in the cracks which is really easy to do when everyone is juggling multiple tasks. This last point is the most tedious but it’s super important. Make sure you’re documenting! I HATE writing process guides, but it’s so much more important that a small firm has documentation available to be able to easily pick up tasks if the main person responsible for any particular task can’t do so. (I have always used the morbid and extreme example of “What would happen if Charlie got hit by a bus?” but it more reasonably would be the case that a particular employee would be out for vacation, illness, maternity/paternity leave, or quit. The point of the question is to ask “is anyone on this team prepared to take over any task with little to no notice?”).

      Hope this helps!

    2. Dr Dimple Pooper*

      I’ve worked at many start-ups and what you describe is very typical.
      What got to me most were the 12 hour days, plus weekends, and usually working on the laptop at home at night. It was a tough grind and wears you down quick.
      Is there a payoff with regards to stock options?

      1. NaoNao*

        I’m being compensated very competitively but no stock. It’s a “startup arm” of a larger mega-corp so it’s not “that” kind of startup where we have outside funding and could get to hyper-growth/unicorn status.

    3. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      It sounds like to me your team is sort of kind of employing the Agile method of project management, but could really use a PM or three to actually implement Agile. For yourself, maybe reading up on agile, or getting some training in agile could really help you feel more comfortable with the system. You could also see if the org would pay for some training or bring in people with those skills. Agile can be amazing when deployed correctly, but you really still need someone driving the process.

  70. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    I’ve found someone to carpool with — but I don’t have a car and can’t drive (never learned). How would you suggest remunerating him? I would literally be showing up at his place every morning and making my own way home at night, and I’m very prompt. It’s been suggested by other co-workers that I take over his car payment or insurance, but TBH I don’t make that much. It’s not a long distance, but a great convenience, especially in inclement weather. Maybe a fill-up a week? Or the price of a local bus pass?

    1. Jessen*

      Gas seems to be the most direct way of compensating him here – figure out about how much those trips into work cost every month and pay about half of that, maybe a bit more.

      1. Mbarr*

        This. Don’t take over insurance payments, that’s too much. (Though I speak as an Ontarian, and our insurance is stupid expensive.)

      2. KayEss*

        Yeah, once a week is probably excessive, depending on how long the commute is… I think I was filling up around once a week when I was doing around an hour each way non-highway? So unless the commute is really long and slow or the car is old and fuel-inefficient, your half of gas would probably be every month or so. Since you don’t drive and don’t really have a basis of comparison, maybe ask how often he usually has to fill up? Then like Jessen said, It would be fair to pay for alternate fills.

        It’s probably also kind of inconvenient to have to be getting gas during the commute, so I’d come up with an estimate for a full tank (usually 10-15 gallons for a regular car, more for an SUV) based on the high end of average gas prices in your area and just pay that to him as a flat contribution on a schedule.

        1. Sparkelle*

          Paying half the fuel cost is not enough. He’s covering the capital cost of the car and insurance as well as fuel. Take the daily commute distance times the standard mileage reimbursement rate (IRS publishes this if you’re in the US) and divide by half. That’s the baseline for what’s fair, and its a lot more than jus half the fuel cost.

          1. KayEss*

            Presumably he’s also using fuel for non-commute purposes, so my feeling is if you’re a bit generous with your fuel price estimate (for example, fuel around here is usually $2.50-$3.25, and I’d calculate my contribution assuming, say, $3.50) then it probably all works out.

          2. Enough*

            The capital cost exists with or without the passenger. Offer to pay for gas. Half the cost is enough. So distance road trip times 5 times cost of gas. And pay for every week you ride even once but not for full weeks you don’t.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Gas money. Work out a fair amount with him.

      Your coworkers are nuts to suggest you take over a car or insurance payment.

      1. Clisby*

        How long a commute is this? I’d consider paying the full amount of gas money, but of course if you’re talking about a 90-mile commute that could be unreasonable. The thing is, the person with the car is supplying more than gas money – she’s paying to insure and maintain the car (and might still be paying off the car.)

    3. Shelly*

      Some people don’t like accepting gas money (the actual cash feels too transactional), so you could use gift cards as well

      1. Interplanet Janet*

        I would feel hinky about the cash and/or the awkwardness of having to have the transaction on a regular basis, so I would do the math to figure out how much makes sense, agree on an amount, and then set up an automatic billpay check to go to him once a month.

    4. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      This depends on whether or not your carpooling arrangement is changing your coworker’s existing commute. If not (meaning they’re already driving themselves every day & you’re just tagging along), then half of gas costs is perfect. It sounds like this might be the case.

      If they’re changing things up to accommodate you (maybe they’d work remotely or take public transit on occasion, but now they can’t), then I’d say you’ll need to increase the level of compensation.

      Either way, my best advice to just ask them directly what they’d like and decide if you’re comfortable with that.
      Either way, settle this up front. The worst is when each person tries to “be nice” and isn’t honest about what they think is fair then ends up feeling taken advantage of later on.

    5. Morning reader*

      The most accurate way would be to figure the cost by the govt mileage reimbursement rate and give him half that. E.g. 50 cents a mile x 10 miles = 5.00 divided by 2 =2.50.
      That rate figures in insurance, depreciation, etc as well as gas.
      Other ways: pay him for the gas alone, pay to fill his tank once a month or so, or give him something in kind. Personally I would drive you for a pie or a dozen eggs….

      1. Lilysparrow*

        This is what I was going to suggest.
        You can also buy gas cards, if handing over cash feels hinky.

    7. Mischief Managed*

      Paying for his gas seems like the best thing to do. The both of you could come to a reasonable arrangement.
      You could also bring breakfast or pay for breakfast every once in a while if you’re feeling generous/if you know their diet restrictions. If I were driving someone and they showed up with a danish and hot chocolate, I might seriously consider marrying them.

    8. JSPA*

      Gas plus a bit extra. (Round up, and/or a baked treat Friday mornings, if welcome and if that’s your sort of thing.)

      Always be prompt. No complaining if he’s not (but start looking for other options).

      Have a backup plan if things get weird in some way.

      Settle on how much advance notice you’d need, if he’s not able to drive (at some point, he’ll be sick, you’ll be taking the bus or Uber–but what of, say, him having after work events, date night in the city, or whatever?).

      If you are not unable nor opposed to learning how to drive, maybe look into that. It’s a good skill to have, before you find yourself in the car with someone who’s had a beer or three or four, and you both realize that they ought not be driving, so, now what?

  71. Jessen*

    I need a bit of feedback. My job (government IT support) recently decided they needed evening coverage. The solution is that everyone will have to work a 12-8 shift for a week once every four weeks instead of our normal 9-5. They’re softening it by allowing us to work from home for that week. But it still feels pretty off to me because I can’t really do anything with those evenings. I have a lot of evening commitments that are from 7-9pm, and given where I live there’s really nothing to do if you can’t leave the house until 8pm anyway. So it would basically be one week every months where I can’t do anything after work all week. I really don’t like that setup.

    Am I overreacting? We’re not in a position where after hours support is normally an expectation, but there’s been some concern because not all of our users are on the east coast.

    1. KR*

      I wouldn’t say you’re overreacting. It’s ok to be upset. Could you think of it like now you have a morning a month to do stuff? Doctor appointments, morning activities and classes, going to the gym, sun bathing in your yard, ect? Like it stinks you’re losing the evening but you’re getting a morning in return!

      1. Jessen*

        The trouble is out where I am pretty much the only thing to do in the morning is go socialize with the cows across the street. Everything you’ve described is 30 minutes to an hour away, which means I wouldn’t even really have time to go do it and then come back and be in time for work.

          1. Jessen*

            Honestly, none of that’s going to help. It’s about being social, not being active. That’s the core of it – cutting off my evenings like that is pretty much saying “you can’t have any activities that involve another human being more involved than the grocery store clerk for a full week once a month, every month.” That’s pure hell to someone like me, especially in a workplace that’s going to be expecting you to work from home and where even if you’re in the office most people pretty much keep their headphones on all day.

            1. JSPA*

              Post it as a ride, to your local bike ride board, then? There may be others with flexible schedules.

              One week a month (especially if that’s actually only 5 days?) without real-world social activities is not gonna bug most people to the extent of questioning their job. More like a chance to do a 5 days of laundry, cook-and-freeze meal prep, bill-paying, cleaning, reading, hobby, and then have a solid 3 weeks (plus a weekend?) of socializing.

              And it’s not like they’re asking you to work night shift; this is barely a swing shift.

              Meeting people from 8:30-10:30 (or getting to a social event late) is just…so normal in most places, where people have some combination of long commute, child care duties, pet walking (etc) after work. Surely there are other people / additional friends you could be meeting who are straining to make the earlier times, and would love to do whatever it is that you do to socialize, a couple of hours later. Start by sounding out the people who currently rush in an hour late, for example.

              1. Jessen*

                I think you’re really overestimating where I live. If I go outside from 8:30 to 10:30 there’s literally cows and nothing else. Any social activities are a minimum of 30 to 45 minutes away, and an hour+ is more frequent. So if I’m working 12-8 and an event is from 7-9, I probably won’t be able to make it there until 8:45. And then in order to keep the schedule I needed at home I’d need to be leaving no later than 10 at night.

                These would be great suggestions for someone who lived in a more urban area or possibly even suburbs, but they’re not really workable for people who live in genuinely rural towns. We’re talking a total population of about 150 here.

    2. New Normal*

      It sounds like your job’s doing what they feel they have to and doing their best to soften the blow – but that doesn’t mean it works for you. I mean, for me that sounds amazing – one week a month, known in advance, where I can sleep in, do my grocery run in the morning when it’s not too crowded, work from home, and avoid all evening commitments? Sweet!

      But I’m not you. It sounds like your evenings are important to you and that’s totally valid! It does sound, though, that it might come down to a choice between your job and your evenings. Unless there’s a surplus of people or one person particularly loves the later shift and volunteers to take more than their share of weeks then it might just be part of the job now.

      1. Jessen*

        It’s a bit more intense for me because I think these evenings are really the only thing that’s keeping my anxiety from spiraling out of control – if I’m basically by myself a whole week it spins out of control. But I don’t think it’s safe for me to bring that up to work at all, and I would be in a very bad position insurance wise (and possibly FMLA-wise) to be looking for a new job. So I really feel like I’m between a rock and a hard place where every option is Very Bad for me, and the whole shift feels very out of the norm of what I’d expect for this type of job.

        1. Reba*

          Sorry you’re facing this, Jessen!

          FWIW, having shifted work times, or potentially worse, “on call” times, sounds very normal for IT support to me, especially given the time zone spread. And one week per month doesn’t sound to onerous — to me. You get to decide what’s workable for you.

          Do you have to work at home for the shifted week? It sounds like that’s not a sweetener for your circumstances like it would be for others. I don’t think it’s too out there to say something like, “I actually prefer to work in the office, not at home,” and try to negotiate some other kind of perk that might do it for you.

          1. Jessen*

            I think it would at least be very weird to not work at home for that. Plus honestly working in a empty office past when things close wouldn’t be any better than working from home, and the commute would be a strain given the hours. It’s the fact of having to choose from an empty home or an empty office between 5 and 8 pm (with an hour commute home). Especially since our workplace tends to be the sort of quiet, headphones-on sort of place, and I need more social interaction.

            I’m worried if I can’t make this work because I absolutely have to have the health insurance from this job and I really doubt I could find something to replace it. But I also think this sort of thing might be so debilitating to me that I wouldn’t be able to work at all if I took it on. And I don’t think asking for an accommodation is really doable, because of some particularities about my health. I was incredibly lucky to get this job and I don’t think I could land another with less than a year of experience in the field and no credentials at all.

        2. New Normal*

          Ah, yeah, that makes a difference. You know yourself best but is this something where you can give it a try just for one month and see how it goes? Can you work from a local coffee shop or other public place so you get the ‘people’ part during that week? Or join a local gym and hit morning classes those weeks? Would that be enough to get you through that time?

          Alternatively you might speak with your boss and let them know that you’re concerned that your productivity will be affected working from home and discuss possibilities. Do they need someone to sub for others if there’s an evening conflict? Could they use someone to take every, say, Friday (obviously assuming that works for you)? You know your boss best and whether they’d be open to this or not.

          Whatever it is, it sounds like this is adding a lot of stress and that tends to put our brains in panic mode and that makes it SO HARD to see options which, of course, just makes it all worse.

          1. Jessen*

            There is unfortunately no such thing as a local gym or coffee shop or anything where I am. Until 2 years ago we didn’t even have a local grocery store. It’s that rural, which is why I do things after work. But it’s cheap (job is DC area) and me being single and having high medical bills can’t afford to live anywhere else really. Also because I’m working with secure data I have to be sure my screen can’t be seen by others.

            It might be possible to trade off days with my coworkers? That might be my best option. It’s definitely a lot of stress especially because I don’t want to talk about certain mental health issues at work. (They’re actually pretty friendly generally with those, but there’s some specifics with me that people often don’t react to well, even those who are generally open about the idea of mental health treatment.)

        3. JSPA*

          Ah, that’s the missing piece in the puzzle. You have a finely-wrought coping strategy, and this is destabilizing it.

          The practical suggestions still hold, though. If there are various things to do at 5:30, you can also find things to do at 8:30.

          If you’re out of options and you really just need to talk to human beings, there may be AA/Al-anon meetings that are “open group” at odd hours.

          I know anxiety isn’t an addiction. But a) people are people and b) some of the coping methods actually translate, as do some of the “family and friends” patterns.

          1. Jessen*

            I really can’t find anything. I live in a town of 150. There is LITERALLY nothing to do that doesn’t require me driving a fair distance. I feel like people here are having trouble with what living in an actual rural location means.

            I also find anything that’s focused on mental health or similar tends to end up being very bad for me as well. Again, I’ve found a lot of the roots of the anxiety problem aren’t really acceptable to bring up or make people uncomfortable, and I tend to end up getting attacked a lot or told that I need to get over it.

          2. DreamingInPurple*

            I’m sorry, but this keeps coming up and it is so completely, completely untrue that there will generally be things to do starting at 8:30 if there are things starting at 5:30. I live near a smaller city that is broadly part of the Eastern Seaboard I-95 Megalopolis, with plenty of population. Most “after work” classes and activities start early (5-6) and you’re completely SOL if you can’t get to things by 7-7:30. The majority of businesses close by 9, and restaurants by 9-10… and all that is without a rural town commute. It drives me absolutely insane when people suggest there must be things to do in the evening, especially in winter, because There. Are. Not.

      2. WellRed*

        Yes, any chance one of your coworkers would jump at the chance to do this shift more often so you don’t have to?

        1. Jessen*

          One of them actually did but it looks like management doesn’t want them to go for it. We’ll have to see. It’s supposed to be temporary, at least at first. But I’m not confident.

          1. JSPA*

            That’s actually a valid opening for you to bring up accommodations. They don’t need to know the details. “I have a medical issue that does not affect my daily work, but makes it unusually important for me to keep a regular schedule. Being able to trade shifts with Drusilla would be all the accommodation I’d need.”

            This could be anything from a sleep disorder to a tricky digestive tract to dialysis–there’s a fair chance they won’t insist further. Ideal if you can get a doctor’s note, but even if you can’t, saying the magic words might be very smart. Finally, if they force the issue, and things spiral down to the point where you need more intervention and time off, you will have warned them.

    3. Mobuy*

      Could you suggest one 12-8 shift a week for each person instead? That might be easier to stomach than a whole week of that schedule.

      1. JSPA*

        That would mess with me far worse–changing everyone’s schedule for the sake of fixing one’s own issue seems questionable. At least first check if there are other people who’d prefer it.

        1. tiasp*

          Personally, I’d prefer one night a week as long as I had input into which night. Tues/Thurs is a certain activity and Mon is a certain activity so getting scheduled for every late Wednesday would be easy to accommodate but one full week out of every month would be very stressful. So I think it’s definitely worth talking to your coworkers about. And there were plenty of times in my life where I’d have been happy to have ALL the late shifts because I’m naturally a night owl.

  72. goop*

    Has anyone with <2 years experience in a field, moved for a better job market? I feel like it's time to leave my current job but I'm dreading the thought of beginning the job search again. There are only like 2-5 new postings a week for my field versus 100's in larger cities.

    1. 867-5309*

      You’ll be fine. When sharing “why,” you can just say you are planning to move to the area. And leaving with more than one, but less than two years, experience isn’t horrible for a first job.

  73. Mockingdragon*

    Hi All!
    A friend of mine is having a really tough time extracting herself from a toxic environment. (I know it’s toxic because I used to work with her.) She has a great resume and kickass skills, but she told me that she fears leaving the devil she knows, because “what if there is no better?” What if she leaves one toxic job and finds the next is just as bad in a different way?

    Can I have stories of positive workplaces for her? Especially recent ones? Positions filled with good salary, sane coworkers, good bosses, and comfortable environments? I think she isn’t the only one despairing and good stories are hard to come by.

    1. aurora borealis*

      I left an extremely hostile/toxic workplace after being there for 7 years. I went for a job that I had minimum experience with, but knew I had transferable skills and could do the job. I have been in my job now for 10 months and absolutely LOVE it!! The pay is much much better, the benefits rock, and we look to do fun things as a group at least once a month. My boss is not a micromanager, people trust each other, and the HR department actually does their job instead of making excuses. I didn’t have the degree they were looking for, but they took the chance on me based on my personality and that I fit with the culture. My new job has wonderful people, they actually care about the lives of the employees and I enjoy coming to work every day. I went from having a constant bulls-eye on my back, no budget, having to do the work of 4 people, kowtowing to the public, being forced to do things totally against my better judgement to being trusted that I can handle a job/task on my own; sought out for ideas and those ideas being put into practice; working collaboratively with my peers and praised/valued as a person and employee. I am still looking for negatives, and I just can’t seem to find any! Let her know that stepping off that cliff just may be the best thing she could ever do. The toxic job was making my life hell in so many ways and skewed my thinking so that I didn’t think there was better. But there is! Tell her to go for it – it is scary to leave what you know, but being mentally beat up on a daily basis is worse.

      1. Uncanny Valley*

        I just posted but I like your story better! I wish I could delete mine now! There are a lot of similarities to mine.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      I left my last job almost three months ago because I was bored and unchallenged (my manager did not like me personally so didn’t give me many projects to work on and the stuff she did give me was easy and the stuff no one else really wanted to do). Anyway, I too was concerned about what it would be like to leave and go someplace else – I’m always reading horror stories here and other places on the internet, and I really feared ending up in an environment that was toxic and abusive instead of just boring.

      Well, I’m happy to report that my new job is perfectly within my wheelhouse (because I get to create my own projects and shape the role into what I want it to be), I received a nearly 27% increase in pay and get to work from home full-time, my benefits and leave time is way better than the crap offered by my last company, and I’m a very valued member of my team in such a short time. My grandboss called me yesterday and told me I’m receiving a bonus on my next paycheck that I wasn’t expecting because I hadn’t worked for them for a full quarter, but he said he got HR to agree to pro-rate it and he still told them to give me 101% of the pro-rated amount. I told him 101 is not a number, and we laughed, and he said he knows but really appreciates everything I’ve been doing for this company so far and that he respects how I work and interact with various internal stakeholders. He told me my direct manager and dotted line managers are both so happy I’m on the team, as is he, and he’s excited to see what else I do next.

      I really love this job and enjoy the people I work with (for the most part). To think, if I had let my fear of the unknown stop me, I wouldn’t be in this position – I’d still be at my last company slowly rotting away in misery. It was just a bad fit for me all around. Tell your friend to have faith in herself and start looking. She could end up missing out on a job that’s perfect for her.

    3. Uncanny Valley*

      Greetings. I hope my little experience helps. If story is too long, go to the last line. :-)

      I was a high performer at OLD job who rose through the ranks rather quickly. Moving from an entry level role to a lead admin position in four years! Doubling my pay along the way!

      No workplace is perfect but things were good. Until . . . . . they weren’t. A major project instituted by our new division head indirectly/directly contributed to the dismissal (constructive and otherwise) of several members of our department including all of our managers.

      When the new department head turned on me, I knew it was time to leave but did not want to. I enjoyed my job and was good at it. But at times I struggled with self confidence and did not think I would be good enough for another gig. WRONG!

      A hardworking recruiter found my resume on a popular job site. The previous day, this new manager reportedly tried to fire me for following a company protocol she was unaware of but should have been. A few other things happened the convinced me it was time to leave. So I uploaded the resume. This recruiter eventually told me about jobs with this Fortune 500 IT company that I never imagined working for. Sure enough, less than a month after this attempted “firing”, I was hired with this company.

      It took me a few years to recover from the workplace PTSD created by OLDJOB but CURRENT JOB has been great! As it turned out, I am good enough. My skillset fit perfectly here and as a bonus my pay is now double what it was when I left OLDJOB. I work for a management staff the really, really insulates us from the inevitable office politics that exists everywhere.

      THERE IS BETTER!!

    4. Lizzie Bennett*

      When my contract came up at a job I loved, I took a chance in a new industry in a new town. The job…was not for me. I couldn’t adjust to the unpredictability, the late hours, the myriad unwritten rules, the mundane everyday work, the lack of training and information sharing, and I didn’t have the stamina to keep up. I felt like I could do nothing right and just shut down. Maybe others would have thrived there but it was toxic for me. I stayed there a year (this is about 3 years ago) but I was desperate to get out.

      I managed to snag an entry-level position at another company that from the outside, seemed boring and quiet. Boring was better than toxic, but could I become passionate about my job there? What if I was wrong again and it turned out it wasn’t for me? What if I was just bad at everything?

      I ended up taking the job and it has been the best decision I could have made. The job has just enough boring days that I was able to get a handle on my job duties in 3 months instead of 6mo-never. It’s quiet enough that I can focus stress-free, but my coworkers are actually super quirky, helpful, and come alive after hours. Common sense and steady maintenance triumphs over sudden changes and unwritten rules. I can leave on time almost every day, and my hours worked don’t affect my performance reviews. Oh yeah I have regular performance reviews! I’ve been able to learn new skills, leverage old ones and discover talents I didn’t know I had–and my pay and bonuses reflect that. My bosses are easy to talk to and willing to teach at every opportunity. The office takes safety seriously and not only actually practices fire drills instead of laughing at them, they show everyone where the emergency supplies are. And the few times I’ve brought up a concern, like “I’m not being discriminated against, right?” or about taking a leave of absence, my bosses were discreet and kind and assuaged my fears.

      I know why I was so nervous to take this job, but that was all the frustration of that job talking–I’m glad I did my research and asked questions that made me comfortable enough to take this one, because this has been an amazing move for my career.

  74. Confused but trying*

    Etiquette question regarding names and pronouns for transgender people:

    I work in a medical office that primarily serves kids. I noticed this week that there was a great deal of inconsistency in how staff were addressing a parent I knew from the office as a transgender woman who used female name/she. I asked a supervisor if she could do some education and the supervisor was receptive. The confusing part is that it then came to light that this person has introduced herself to another staff by the male name given at birth, so, combined with a more masculine presentation, the fact that that staff was using male name/he made perfect sense all of a sudden.

    Going forward, what is the most respectful way to address this person? I’m trying to get my terms and pronouns right in this post and am sorry if I didn’t.

    1. Shelly*

      You could default to gender neutral pronouns with all parents, or your intake form could have a line for parents to indicate their pronouns. If this is something that your office is committed to, you could have an update form for the next six months or something so that as a patients come in, they have a chance to complete that form with pronoun preferences.

    2. Sam*

      In this case, I think you can definitely ask! “You introduced your self to me as A, you introduced yourself later as B – I just wanted to check in and see if there’s anything you’d like me to change!” seems like a good non-confrontational way to go about things.

      1. Justin*

        Yes, asking can indeed be very respectful. Frame it as confirming what has been observed (their choice of pronouns, not their face/etc) and see if they agree.

      2. Confused but trying*

        I think this makes a lot of sense in this case. Where I was getting hung up is that this person has volunteered different names at different times and I’m all for calling people what they want to be called.

        I’m non-binary, but not out at work, so I may be particularly sensitive, but also feel like I should be there one with the answers.

    3. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Is it possible to clarify with the person what they prefer? (Not trans, but having heard from a lot of trans people that they’d rather be politely asked). Other people might be able to weigh in on phrasing. It might also be worth checking that she hasn’t had negative reactions at the office to a female name/pronouns with a presentation that might be read as masculine–i.e., It’s possible that she could have given a masculine name to avoid harassment for a perceived disconnect in gender and presentation–which would be a bigger issue you would need to address with staff. But I’m just speculating a range of possibilities here.

    4. SherSher*

      My transgender adult family member still uses their given name (dead name) during medical transactions because that’s still their legal name (for now) and that’s what’s on their insurance. I feel certain they would appreciate being asked what their preferred name and pronoun is. If you’re not sure (don’t know if they are trans) then just ask patient’s their preferred name. Sometimes that will give a clue, sometimes it won’t. But my family member is up front with the docs about their transition so the doc can find out preferred pronoun and put it in the file.

      (I left out some details so if you still have questions about what the heck I am trying to say, please ask!)

      1. The Kerosene Kid*

        I’m trans but have not yet been able to take medical/legal steps. This is how I do it with my doctors and insurance and they’ve been really cool about it. I preferred to be asked, ime.

        1. Confused but trying*

          This is a bunch of questions, any or all of which you can ignore since this isn’t meant to be an interrogation. They are just all the questions that have come into my head while reading the responses so far and I hung them here.

          I use the name and pronouns I do for the person because I asked. Would you expect your provider to share the preference information with everyone in the office or would you prefer the provider kept the information confidential from the rest of the office? Does your answer change if you interact regularly with multiple people at the office rather than just one?

          Would you always introduce yourself by your preferred name or would you sometimes introduce yourself with your deadname, with no hints that it is your deadname? I suspect the other staff member didn’t even think to ask because the person volunteered a name that matched apparent gender presentation. If someone presenting in a more feminine manner comes up to me and says, “Hi, I’m Joan,” it seems awkward to then ask, “What do you want to be called?” Is there a smoother way?

    5. deesse877*

      For yourself, you can just ask the specific person. The politest way I know is to say “I’m So-and-so, my pronouns are ______; what are yours?” (Trans people please let me know if there’s a better way.) The key is to treat it the same way as if you got a name wrong, or accidentally used the wrong title–as a minor mistake easily fixed. Not a big drama, just a normal miscommunication. Making pronoun choice **normal** in all ways is a way to support trans people.

      As far as what other people are doing goes, different approaches apply to different situations. If there is genuine confusion, education is the way to go (including how to correct one’s own mistakes) and it should happen ASAP. If there is real OR PERCEIVED intentional misgendering happening, though, that has to be shut down immediately. Even though the trans person is not the primary patient, the mistrust and fear that misgendering causes is really dangerous in a situation of vulnerability like health care. If this has gone on a while, the likelihood is that it comes off as intentional, just because transphobic abuse is s o common.

    6. Denise*

      Perhaps address the person simply by the name with which they introduced themselves to you, and everyone else can continue to do the same until that person says otherwise. I think it might be overstepping a bit to decide to educate the office on something that is actually personal to that individual (you don’t know his or her actual preference or the degree to which (s)he cares.)

    7. KoiFeeder*

      I vote for asking directly. There could be any number of reasons that any given trans person does not want to be “out” in this sort of situation, or they could have had a brainfart (it happens) and feel too embarrassed to correct it.

    8. Penguin*

      Definitely check with the parent! They might have introduced themselves as their assigned-at-birth gender to someone for myriad reasons- habit, sudden anxiety about self-identity, they’re genderfluid and that day was a ‘male day’, staff person is connected via an extended social network and parent prefers to compartmentalize, parent isn’t comfortable being out to that staff person for some reason (or none at all)…

      Ultimately, the best way to help someone is to a) check if they want help, and then b) provide the kind of help they want. This person may not want to be a teaching example! When in doubt, just ask them.
      “I noticed we have your gender listed two different ways in our files; how should we have you listed?” might be a delicate way to ask. Following that up with “Would you like us to make sure staff use [their answer] pronouns for you?” might also help.

      1. Confused but trying*

        The education would have come in at the point where I had the name/female pronoun introduction volunteered by the parent and the medical records indicated the same thing.

        Now, knowing that there are different introductions floating around, I think the thing is probably to look for a natural opportunity to clarify and have everyone use the name the parent volunteers to them. Does that sound reasonable?

    9. Doing too many things*

      I am married to a transgender woman who is midway through transition (and therefore presentation sometimes fluctuates) and takes our kiddo to all kiddo’s appointments. Thanks for being thoughtful about this!

      I am with the other commenters who have advised that you (relatively discreetly) ask. Using gender neutral pronouns by default still misgenders people. (My wife is REALLY uncomfortable with people using gender neutral pronouns for her, because she is *female*, not nonbinary or gender fluid).

      If there’s a form the individual needs to sign anyway, just saying when you hand the form over, “If you could sign this, and can you confirm this is the correct name for our records?” Provides an opportunity. If you/another provider interact with her regularly — like if you’re providing therapy to her child — you may have enough of a rapport built to be able to ask in a less roundabout way. “I just want to be sure we’ve got this right – you go by Saoirse, right?”

      And sometimes context does matter – like someone who hasn’t changed their legal name or gender yet and so sometimes has to be listed one way on paperwork for insurance but otherwise always uses a new name and matching pronouns.

      You could also wear a pronoun pin yourself or put your pronouns on your name badge. That is a really easy way to signal to a trans person that you understand something about pronouns and that way if an individual really prefers they/them pronouns, for instance, they may feel more comfortable speaking up about it themselves.

      One of my favorite examples of ways to handle paperwork with old names on it, BTW, was from an educational meeting involving my kiddo. We had to review old paperwork before a new version could be written, and the old paperwork had my wife’s deadname on it. The person leading the meeting said, “Now, this first page has some old contact information on it, but we’ll get that updated in the new version. If everything else there is correct, we’ll move on to page two…” and went on from there. Very matter of fact, didn’t read out the deadname, just moved on.

      1. Confused but trying*

        I almost really like the pronoun pin idea. The problem for me is that I use female pronouns but would prefer gender neutral (requiring retaining everyone and explaining because this has been an evolving process for me) and I don’t want to have to make the choice of what to put on my own pin. I’m okay for now with people using female because I haven’t said otherwise, but I don’t want to formally claim them.

        Thank you for sharing your wife’s experience!

    10. medium of ballpoint*

      I usually frame it as a charting question and clarify if one is preferred or if both are currently in use so their documentation is tidy and accurate. So far it’s worked pretty well. Good luck, and thanks for thinking about this!

    11. JSPA*

      Having helped a friend, the hardest documentation to change wasn’t driver’s license or birth certificate; it was federal governmental benefits stuff tied to old soc. sec. information and also some of the medical stuff.

      In some company’s coding systems, it’s very hard for a trans man to get their pap smear covered, or a trans woman to get a prostate exam covered; it can be worth keeping the old gender designation on some aspects of your records so you get the requisite cancer-prevention care. And dogma aside, some trans-women do feel better showing up in drag / as male for a prostate exam, while others are happier recasting that exam as a female medical procedure.

      Finally, while the dogma is that everyone who transitions wants their “dead name” gone and buried, real life is more complex. Some people tear up all photo evidence of their misgendered childhood; others were OK with being a child of one gender, and an adult of another, and are OK using the old name as “one of many names and nicknames I have had.” (As one friend said, “being a boy wasn’t too bad, even I’d rather have been a girl. But being told I was a man now, and had to act like one? That was shattering.”)

      The first wave of trans people have been those for whom living in their assigned-at-birth gender was desperately intolerable. Not only was society hugely nasty and ignorant in dealing with trans people, but in fact if you were not miserable to the point of self-destruction, you almost certainly could not get medical permission, medication, nor legal recognition.

      Being able to present as whatever gender(s) feel right and normal to you, without needing to get to the point of self-hatred, despair and suicide attempts, to justify transition, will presumably lead to there being a greater percentage of transitioning / transitioned people for whom being dead-named or misgendered is not as huge kick in the gut.

      So, anyway–asking is fine. Asking them who / which gender observer they’d prefer to have present if the doctor needs to have a second person present for certain types of exams, is also fine.

  75. BeeGee*

    Has anyone that has been in the hiring process for a role at a massive corporation had a ridiculous amount of time pass between interviews/hiring process that eventually led to a next step from the company?

    I understand that typically the larger the company, the longer it takes for them to vet and interview potential candidates and there is a lot of obscurity about how the company goes about processing qualified candidates (maybe the company keeps a long window open for candidates and only starts interviewing after they close the window, maybe they want to interview their top candidates before interviewing second-tier candidates, etc etc). I also know that I shouldn’t agonize or obsess about the role in the meantime, but let’s face it, it happens to the best of us.

    For a role I recently applied to, I received an e-mail from the company that explicitly noted that they would like to interview me for the position, and that I had passed their initial application screen, as well as a personality test and rigorous logic test. They did note in the email that “due to a high volume of applicants, it will take several weeks” to receive follow up for next step. Well…it’s been over 7 weeks since I got the email and it’s been radio silence. The posting for the role is still open, and my application is still noted as active and just confirms that no additional communication has been sent out since that email. The cherry on top is that there is no contact listed anywhere to reach out to about it (no HR contact on the LinkedIn post, the email came from a generic company address, and the email only gave an email to contact if I wished to remove myself from the process).

    I don’t expect any replies to try and answer my specific situation, but I was more curious if anyone has been in a similar situation and ended up eventually getting an interview after a long radio silence. I think I’m especially frustrated because it’s one thing to never hear anything back about an application and to accept that you’re most likely rejected, but it’s another to be told that the company would like to interview you but have no contact for 7 weeks. Hopefully someone commiserate or at least make me feel less bananas about this situation!

    1. Goose Lavel*

      I went through this with a company with 3500 employees. I was recommended by a past colleague and I attended an employment open house, where I met my potential new manager. This was for a Senior Engineer position.
      I spoke with him for about 10 minutes at the open house and then a phone screen with him about 2 weeks later.
      Interview was 4 weeks later where I talked to him and 4 others. 1.5 months go by and then called back for a second interview with him and a more senior group of 4 others.
      Offered a job 3 weeks lster and agreed to start once background check was complete; background check took another month.
      Overall it took more than 3.5 months before I started.

      1. BeeGee*

        Thanks for your story! Makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, I’ll get a shot at that interview eventually!

        And if you were wondering, I’m applying for a position at the company HQ and globally they have over 90k employees!

    2. periwinkle*

      Fortune 50 corporation:

      Applied: June 3
      “Under consideration” status on their ATS: June 2-September 21
      Contacted for interview: September 22
      Interviewed: three different dates in October/early November
      Hired: November 21

      Sometimes it just takes a while. A long, long while.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I’ve worked at several massive corporations and you can generally expect the process to take many (3-4) months.

    4. Sam Foster*

      Recruiters I’m talking to at large and small companies are saying pretty much the same thing: 4-6 weeks to cull through applicants for HR phone screen, another 4-6 weeks to schedule interviews with hiring manager/hiring team, additional lag on making offer.

      Spoke to a recruiter today for a 6-month contract role and it was going to take her 5-10 business days to get a first phone screen scheduled with the client company.

      I’ve also had “our company has redistributed the requisitions for this and another position to a different team and we’re planning on revisiting the position we’ve interviewed you for in Q4 (October-December 2019).”

      I also had a “budgetary considerations have changed we’re closing this position.”

      My personal favorite was a company contacting me that I didn’t remember applying to. That was because they were swinging back around FOUR years after I applied because the person they were trying to replace due to retirement was finally bought out because they weren’t going to leave.

      Further, I’ve received very few “Thanks but no thanks” emails so don’t expect even that courtesy.

      If you are in the US, I think all the talk of a robust economy is a smokescreen and companies are very, very afraid of what’s going to happen so they’re being even more cautious than usual with hiring.

      TL;DR: It sucks out there, try to put it out of your mind.

      Good luck!

  76. dumb dumb*

    Advice for a coworker needed: A job was posted at our company with the same title and job description as my coworker’s current job. The salary range listed for this open position is higher than what my coworker currently makes in that position. What advice should I give my coworker? Should she apply for this position and try for a higher salary or just straight up ask for a raise?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      If I were her, I’d talk to my manager about why a job with my same job description is in a higher pay band than mine (non-confrontationally, just genuinely curious in tone – like how do I bring my role up to that level?). Maybe there’s something about it that’s higher level that’s not immediately clear from the posting. Depending on the answer, I’d ask for a raise first if it made sense. If that gets denied, I’d apply for the new position.

      The key here is to not take it personally or be angry. Use it as really helpful info that could position her to get more pay. Don’t treat the manager or company as an adversary here; just use the new posting as an opener to a discussion around her own compensation.

      And all this is assuming your friend is a good employee, of course. If she’s on a pip or something, it’s not the time to ask for a raise, and it’s unlikely she’d get the new role. It would be better to bring her work up to par, do well for a year, then use this posting to ask about a raise at that point.

  77. EddieSherbert*

    Kind of just venting here because I’m frustrated with people … I work a side gig running a cat rescue; it’s 100% volunteer run with 4 of us in leadership roles (organizing volunteers/fosters, setting up appointments and administering medical, all the paperwork, dealing with money, processing applications, etc), it’s exhausting, but in general, I enjoy doing it and think it’s worthwhile. But.

    People. Oh my GOSH, people.

    Why on earth do people seem to assume I must be available over the weekend? A “normal” business wouldn’t be getting demanding emails because “I emailed you Friday afternoon and now it’s Monday morning and NO ONE has replied to me, why are you ignoring me, guess you don’t *really* want these cats to go to good homes!” but we do. All the time. And we’re very clear on our website/pet profiles/social media/in my email signature that we’re all volunteers with “day jobs.”

    Sorry I only reply to emergencies over the weekend? Sorry I’m spending my free time doing fundraising or adoption events, transporting cats or supplies to fosters, or (gasp!) actually relaxing? And then, yes, I go to my actual job Monday morning without checking my email first. And then I work all day. So I’ll get back to you AFTER work (or more often – during my lunch break).

    Drives me nuts!!

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Also, a weird new trend that’s been happening a lot this summer: People applying to adopt animals that can go home now and wanting us to hold them 3-5 weeks so they can go on vacations. And then of course getting upset when I say “nope, but if they happen to still be available when you get back, we can definitely talk about you adopting them then!”

      Spoiler alert: I don’t know of ANY rescue or shelter that is going to petsit for a month – even if you offer to pay for their food/meds/whatever so “they don’t cost us anything” for that month – when they could move that animal into a great home and save another animal during that same timespan.

      Sigh.

    2. Peaches*

      Ugh, that is so frustrating! We have a customer at work that is like this. He called his sales rep (my coworker) on a Friday after hours to get pricing on an item – she didn’t answer. She called him back Monday morning at 8:00 A.M. (we open at 7:30) and he says to her “Wow, I thought maybe you took a trip to the moon – it seems like it’s been light years since I called you. I thought I would never hear back from you.” Like, yes, she is a human with a life outside of work and she called you back WITHIN 30 MINUTES of business hours since you last called.

      Your situation is particularly frustrating since it’s 100% volunteer run. People can be so nuts!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        People ARE nuts! Haha. I usually feel like the idea that “people today are trained to expect instant gratification” is a big exaggeration, but these emails have become such a big thing lately, maybe they are onto something…

        We’ll see if updated out messages make a difference (at least for the weekends!).

    3. Kathenus*

      Can you put on your voicemail and as an autoresponse on emails what your ‘working’ hours are, and that messages that come in after xx time on Fridays will be answered the following business week?

      1. EddieSherbert*

        That could help, at least for weekends. My “working hours” are not set at all so that could create issues… I answer emails when I remember to take lunch at work… For 5 minutes pulled over on the side of the road in my car… After or before dinner depending on if I need a break *now* or can wait until later… I honestly just cookie-cutter like 2 hours of my day for this whereever I can find the time!

        Today I happen to be at a seminar where having my laptop out is not a big deal. Catching up on a lot! Haha :)

    4. Alice*

      I think that making it clear you have day jobs might be causing people to think that you do the rescue communication on weekends and evenings. So when they see a weekend pass by without any response, and they know you’re at your day job now, they are wondering what’s up.
      Yes, there are going to be some entitled people, but if you put in the email signature, or in an auto-reply, that the typical turnaround is X, and that people should feel free to follow up after X, I bet that will cut down on the followup.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Our website, pet profiles online, the auto-generated email people get when they apply, and the auto-generated email for general emails to our main email account all explicitly say our turnaround time is “2-3 business days.”

        People really just don’t read, in my experience… I also get A LOT of emails asking basic questions about cats that are in the cats’ (2-3 small paragraph) profiles.

        The top of the profile in Petfinder even has icons that show yes/no to cats/dogs/kids and if they’re special needs – no reading required! – and I get questions about that all the time.

        1. JSPA*

          There you’re suffering for the sins of others.

          Not everyone is careful to get the details right; people learn fast that they really do need to ask / reconfirm. My 7 month old cat turned out to almost certainly be a very large 5 month old; my other cat was a different color than what her tag said, and I needed to confirm that the tag and the cat were correctly matched; a friend’s second female bunny was actually male, and babies ensued; that “bouncy puppy” was actually a bouncy 4 years old…etc.

          And you may well know more than you can put on a tag. If a cat is “good with dogs,” does that mean they’re not scared of large dogs? That they do not terrorize chihuahuas? That they keep a safe distance with comfort? That they expect to come snuggle? that they will romp with a puppy? They’re hoping for relevant insight beyond what you’re going to happen to have shoehorned into a profile. If a dog needs access to the backyard and is not fully housebroken, does that mean they pee and poop by strong preference outside, or will there still be multiple “events” inside even with full outdoor access and regular walks? Were they never trained but likely amenable, or have multiple attempts at training failed?

    5. BeenThere*

      Set up some type of weekend autoreply beginning Friday afternoon that you and the other volunteers strive for timely responses and the business hours are blah to blah, so if they don’t receive a reply today they’ll get one by the next business day.

    6. anonagain*

      As a low-level volunteer dog rescue, I’m mostly shielded from people’s tantrums by my (all volunteer) leadership team. On the rare occasions I’ve had this kind of reaction, I’ve fantasized about replying with a canned email reading: “We apologize for the delay. Help us improve our response times by becoming a volunteer. Sign up here.”

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I especially hate the “you must not really care” line. It’s such an inconsiderate, emotionally manipulative thing to say.

      Anyway, you are awesome! I don’t know you, but I like you for helping cats. Thank you.

      1. Mellow*

        “Help us improve our response times by becoming a volunteer.”

        Awesome. I really hope you get to use that. It is so spot on!

      2. JSPA*

        I do this all the time for election volunteers.

        Don’t like the line? Notice that you’re waiting for older people with bad eyesight and shaky hands and slow feet to find your card and check your signature and tear the chit off for you and walk you to the machine?

        Hey, much as we love each other, some of us would happily sit out an election (or retire) if we had some new people.

    7. Mellow*

      Because humans suck sometimes. Seriously. It’s the reason I have high blood pressure.

      Bless you for what you do.

    8. JSPA*

      1. Many shelters are open and very busy over the weekend; many foster-care people are only available weekends and off hours, so that’s the time to catch them. Some people conflate foster coordinators and shelters, and presume actual back-end staff 7 days a week. Making that distinction on your facebook page or email signature may help: “we can generally respond to routine inquiries within 2 days, not including weekends.”

      2. People who don’t “people well” can be drawn to animals and animal support groups. Along with the people-who-get-people-and-also-love-animals…and the “like a cat, I’ll check if the coast is clear, sidle in, do my own thing with minimal direction and sidle out again…you will get, “I will whine insistently until you pet me, feed me, or kick me.” Don’t literally kick anyone or anything, but…yeah, be direct if needed.

      3. Some “animal people” tend to over-identify and project. It’s not a dog that’s needing a home, it’s them in that little cage, when they were little; they could have adopted on Saturday, you did not respond until Monday.

      4. Same folks tend to think that a dog requires the same level of intervention as toddler (despite the dog being far more mobile and able to find shelter, water, etc). They rightly recognize that we don’t have citywide APB’s for stray dogs, the way we would for a lost 2 year old. Therefore, Those Few Who Understand are presumed to be willing to do herculean tasks any time of day or night.

      5. Some of your fosterers or would-be fosterers are in fact going to be up every 3 or 4 hours doing feedings, on top of a job and family duties. They’re going to lose sight of the fact that this is short-term/intense whereas yours is long-haul, unless you make that explicit. “We don’t have real-time support; we’re trusting you to be largely self-sufficient except for a real emergency” may need to be re-emphasized. It does not go without saying.

      Basically, some people may be unrealistic, and you can’t be realistic for them; but you can prompt for the people and behavior that you want if you spell out realistic guidelines. If something, somewhere, says “we’ll get back to you as soon as we possibly can,” that’s not a useful message.

  78. Nono*

    I need a sense check! I dropped the ball at work this week and the honest reason is that I really am so busy that this particular thing just slipped off my plate. It’s not a huge deal but it’s also highlighting that the honeymoon phase at work is over and that I may a) not be up to scratch for the job b) have real fundamental differences w my boss when it comes to communication. One of the things being highlighted to me is her volatility and my difficulty in anticipating what she wants. Two weeks ago she admonished me for being “too emotional” when I used the word “need” in a sentence. This week she mentioned I needed to be “more human” and “less mechanical” when talking about doing my work. This was particularly towards my suggestion to take a “first step” to get one of our objectives done. She countered that we just need to be “more human” about it and get it done in “real” ways. Regardless of the objective being as simple as changing a lightbulb or as complex as mapping out a strategy to implement a real culture change, making things happen “organically” in a work environment is foreign to me. I voiced this. She also suggested I was not managing my team very well and said I should be checking in w them more (which I do very regularly). She actually has not ever checked in with me the way that she has instructed me to do so for my team (ie ask for feedback, address the feedback, etc.) so this is also new to me. After 7 months in the job Ive learned not too spiral out too much w confusing run ins like this and take everything she says w a grain of salt, but I do want to stick this out (is this possible?) and at least get a year or two in. What is an actionable thing that I can I do to make it easier on me? Also very realistically, I know I am a people pleaser at work and while I want to do well in this job, there may be real fundamental differences in how we communicate which is not to say i need to change. That said, i want to be open to learning and growing but also don’t like the constant doubt I carry at the moment which is also a very new feeling. Is this growth or is this me being giving the run around?

    also just to add to this very long comment: I’ve also tried to tell her how busy I am and it’s just not been heard or addressed in a way that I feel is helpful to me. I also feel that my main ask of taking some things off my plate and realising that “yes she has a lot to do so things may fall through the cracks” has not been met in a constructive way which allows us to work through the less than stellar parts of my performance. It’s always been turned around to make me feel like I’m in the wrong, which I’m not one to shy away from accountability, so I know it’s definitely room for improvement in my part, but the lack of concrete help from the other end is… not great.

    Really looking forward to your comments. Thank you thank you thank you. :(

    1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      If there’s one thing I have expert level knowledge of, it’s dysfunctional workplaces and crazy bosses.

      Your boss is nuts. I’m sorry. There’s nothing you can do except try to do your job as best as you can while not letting her destroy your self-esteem, while you run out the clock to the year mark.

      2. Spool of Lies*

        Completely agree. This sounds like some gaslight-y B.S. Your boss is truly terrible.

        1. Nono*

          Thank you so much – I don’t know why it took me so long to realise this is a form of gaslighting! After some deep reading into what gaslighting can look like, I’ve realised she is a covert gas lighter and disguises it as trying to mentor and help me grow. I’ve also noticed she isn’t like this with anyone else in my seniority (she is the CEO) and many times, she’s said that it’s because she “sees how much potential I have”, when really, I think it’s just a way for her to indulge her behaviour w someone who she thinks will just take it. Which makes me want to reflect my own actions and how I present as a professional. Thanks again.

    2. JSPA*

      Wanting things taken off your plate, at any job, is going to be a pretty major request.

      Expecting it to be OK for things to fall though the cracks is, in most workplaces, not a reasonable expectation–period. (As opposed to, “it’s still 3 items down on the list of tasks for today.”)

      If you don’t communicate effectively one-on-one, keep a running task list, and do so in a way that’s transparent for your boss.

      Today:
      Receive compiled sales data through beginning of last week, enter sales data from Wed-Friday–done

      Statistical analysis of sales data, Jan-current, and send to person@address with cc to otherperson, including breakdown by region and by profit margin, attention to correlation of sales of loss leaders and highest value items–done

      Price quote for shipping–defer to Tuesday when Jean expects fuel price quotes from person A.

      Larry came to me about recurring toilet paper theft. Suggested he try locking master stash and restocking 4 rolls at a time, for now. Emailed Lara in security to enquire if there’s a process that would notice if people are leaving with industrial-size packages of toilet paper.

      Jane reports minimal response to survey. Reminded team heads by email of need for survey responses–hard deadline noon Wednesday–sent email reminder with “Need this by 9 AM Wed, so expect urgent call at inopportune moments if I don’t hear from you by Tuesday 4 PM” and added reminded to Tuesday calendar.

      Widget order / potential new supplier–Checked with Jane, she reports she called company A, spoke to Juanita Smith at phone number 1-800-123-4567 extention 89, got price quote by phone and email including shipping and will receive a sample widget. Directed her to send it to widget team for approval of quality and pre-approved cost, pending their approval of quality. Upon approval by widget team, she’s instructed to place order.

      1.5 hours of 5 minute 1-on-1 with team members for “green, yellow, right light” feedback on how each of their projects are going–done, except Tanya, who’s out today, and meeting tomorrow. All green lights except for the red light known problem with the Dali account / melting watches. Assured Tom it was not his fault, and that we had his back in telling Mr. Dali that they shipped in perfect condition, and we have never had complaints from other customers; also one yellow light, unclear if changeable color of haystacks from Renoir will be acceptable to purchaser (so far, indications seem positive, but payment has not yet been received).

      As per conversation last week, check with legal whether Degas dancers are correctly classified as independent contrators for tax purposes and in case of muscle strain injury–done, legal confirms they’re correctly recorded, and they carry their own insurance.

      roll over to tomorrow (needs to be done before 10 AM eastern):
      pre-prep for conference preparation including checking if Escher venue is indeed accessible (pictures not promising, many stairs at odd angles); assign Stevon to confirm, tactfully, if both apples and waterlilies are hard requirements.

      etc.

      this is useful for you (nothing can “slip through”) and it gives you and boss something concrete to base any differences on. “Why didn’t you tell Larry to go to security himself / the problems with Mr. Dali should be flagged up to me / why don’t you do 10 minute checkins that include concrete goals,” etc. It would be wrong for your boss to require you to do this–that would be micromanaging–but it can be oh-so-helpful to do it yourself, and let them see (and perhaps troubleshoot) the process. It also reminds you what your scope of duties has been, when it comes time to apply for other jobs.

      Also, check that you separate out “what would feel better” from “what would make the process run better.”

  79. NeccoNeko*

    Hi everyone! Looking for your advice with a lateral job that I accepted and maybe how to negotiate pay. Im still using my license, but it went from more a customer service/clinical role to a billing role. I was told that because it was a lateral move, because all that have this license have the same pay scale, that I wouldn’t get an increase in pay. My coworker also did the same transition about a year ago, but she was the first to have this role. Im coming in to help with expansion. She was told when she was first given the role that she would get a raise, but when they formally gave her the position that it was a lateral move with no increase in pay, or so I thought. I just found out when we were chatting, she’s also a friend, that they did give her a raise for this position and that they tried not to, but she had complained that they had promised her a raise upon offering her the job, so they rescinded. I accepted the role, but haven’t started yet. Im waiting for my replacement first before i can officially start. I feel really dumb that maybe I should’ve spoken up too, but they told me there was no increase in pay. My coworker isn’t sure that maybe because she started the position that’s why she got it, or because she caught them in their error. Is there a way to be able to negotiate a pay raise for this position in the future? I just accepted a pretty decent raise out of the blue for what my boss said was “morale pay” so I know I can’t bring it up now, but was thinking in a few months when my manager and I have our 1-1 to discuss merit raise for the next year? Any advice would be great! Thanks!

    1. dumb dumb*

      I’m in the same boat – lateral move with no pay increase. I recently just ask to review my salary since I have been in this new department for a few months and am now fully trained. I didn’t try to get a salary increase earlier because the lateral move literally happened suddenly (I came into work one morning and was told to move my office because I worked in a different department now). Now that I am trained and contributing fully to the new department, so I am asking for a raise.

  80. Lovecraft Beauty*

    Day 3 of NewJob. The onboarding process is ….not great. I’m feeling pretty unenthused (I left a job I really liked but was very underpaid and moved out of state for this position).

    Any advice for staying engaged and optimistic?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Sometimes onboarding is rough but once it’s over things are fine. And, it’s totally understandable that after that magnitude of change and leaving a job that you loved but wasn’t sustainable pay-wise, you’d be feeling ambivalent. Hang through the onboarding process and see how you feel in 3 months. It takes a while to start feeling confident and competent in a new role, but once you do and you have a few of those bigger paychecks sitting in your account, you may find you’re not as unhappy as you’re worried about now.

      Also, you’re in a new state and home. Can you take some time in your off hours and weekends to introduce yourself to your new town? Find some restaurants you like, scope out the library, see what groups or clubs are around, etc. If you feel more engaged with your new place on the domestic front, you may feel better about work too.

      1. Lovecraft Beauty*

        I’m trying really hard! I have a library card, I’ve been exploring my new neighborhood, and I’m going to a meetup this weekend. But a good night’s sleep didn’t make me feel markedly better, and that worries me.

        1. JSPA*

          A good night’s sleep fixes physical exhaustion, not mental qualms. You’re possibly used to riding through on a certain level of innate enthusiasm, and relying on sleep to replenish that, but…that only goes so far.

          This is going to take a certain level of intentional, stick-with-it-it’s-normal thinking. Like when you start a new sport or new language and you know you’ll suck at it for quite a while, even if you’re improving at a solid pace–and that’s fine. Or when you’ve been sick, and it’ll be a few days of, “I’m dragging a bit, but that’s to be expected.”

          Maybe sit with your awareness for a bit–say, this is what I’m like, when cut loose from my moorings–it’s good to touch base with that, from time to time. You don’t have to love it, but if you can develop a certain level of peace with it, it’ll stand you in good stead, for all the other crises and changes that life throws at all of us.

          Then, generally, just follow the “you’ve got to be kind” dictum. The fastest way to find actively nice, helpful people is to be one. (Also the way to find time-suckers, so…don’t overcommit in the process.)

    2. ArtK*

      Hang in there! I’m on day 5 and it’s slow going. Lots of little annoyances like they have my nickname in the travel system which will cause problems with TSA, so I have to call HR to fix that. Or the fact that someone gave me my “employee id”, but when I tried to use it to log on to a aystem that was asking for an “EID”, I couldn’t do it. Turns out the first thing is my “employee number” and the EID is sonething entirely different — which nobody gave me until I begged.

      Lots of “this too shall pass” to get through this.

    3. Not me... the other guy*

      Sorry about this… I can say that my pretty good to work for company really struggles in the onboarding. Even if I have my ducks in a row as a manager and am prepared, something is always screwed up with equipment, access, desk setup, you name it.

      It’s often quite embarrassing. I generally warn people though, and let them know that their first week I expect them to find the coffee maker and the bathroom and get through all of the startup bumps. Usually by week 2 it’s all sorted, but week 1 is painful and rough.

  81. Saraphina*

    Hi friends,

    I just started a new job a few weeks ago. Although it’s a huge government office, there are a lot of former peers here, due to a specific career path (being super vague, sorry). I looked at this job as a kind of fresh start, and am trying hard to set boundaries between work and personal life. However, the only people I know I now work with! The only things I’ve done socially here are people that I work with, and I’m tired of it. I don’t want to hang out with the same people all the time. How do I politely decline all the happy hours, so I can make some friends outside of this weird bubble, without damaging relationships at work?

    Does this make sense? I need more coffee.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      Join something! Find a bowling (or other sport) league, a book club, a fitness class or gym (and create a schedule for the gym even if it’s not required), a class at a local tech, a place you’d like to volunteer (and then set a schedule for the times that you volunteer even if that’s not required).

      Then you actually are busy and can’t join them!

      Plus, you also can tell them you’re busy tonight or Saturday or whatever even if you’re just going to be “busy” unwinding or watching TV ;)

    3. New Normal*

      It does! It might make the most sense to sidestep it all by finding a meetup group or joining a gym or looking into some volunteer opportunities that will give you an excuse for skipping those happy hours – making it about you, not them. “Sorry, tonight’s my yoga class! Tomorrow?” should be enough to keep up social niceties while giving you a wider horizon.

  82. Shelly*

    I am not a graphic designer, but I will be helping with making Quick Start guides and similar visuals for my office. Does anyone have a good graphic design resource for non-experts? I’m looking for something with basic color theory, spacing suggestions, that kind of thing. I’m open to websites or books, whatever you have found helpful.

    1. Cheating at Design*

      Check out Canva – an online design resource with tons of templates. You might find something there that works for you. Everything can be customized so look with an open mind – things can be adjusted to fit other needs. (I use menu templates to make itineraries sometimes – the layout can work!)

      2. Shelly*

        Yes, I’ve been using Canva for a few months to get used to it (and it’s great for personal stuff too!) Thanks for the recommendation!

    2. Not a Graphic Designer*

      The Non-Designer’s Design Book has always been my go-to for this. It’s not too big, and explains things very clearly. I’m still not a graphic designer, but at least the stuff that I do looks reasonably competent.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        That’s a good book; I had to get it for school and saved it in the Great Useless Worthless Textbook Purge.

  83. 500 Miles*

    I am currently a secretary in an academic environment. I like defining, establishing and refining processes for maximum efficiency and there are business process analyst positions in other parts of my organization (I plan to continue working here for the foreseeable future). I have been offered a professional development conference or workshop; travel, meals, time away completely covered for this, etc. This is an extremely generous offer, and I would like to take advantage of it — but I am at a loss as to what is “out there” and what might be useful for my overall objectives. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    1. fposte*

      So would you be interested in growing toward those business process analyst positions? If so, can you ask the people in those positions if there are opportunities they’d recommend?

  84. just a thought*

    New coworker started 2 weeks ago in the office next to mine. She is very *addicted* to her phone. They only time she puts it away or looks up is when the boss is present. She also spends most of the day texting and then laughing out loud randomly. Hopefully this will end when she has more work to do. I understand people texting during the day while they’re at their desk, but this is ridiculous. She’s done this during meetings, while we were all standing outside for a fire drill talking (she was texting instead of talking to us), and even walked into my office instead of hers because she was texting while walking. She seems nice enough, but I’ve barely talked to her because she makes it really obvious she wants me to go away so she can go back to her phone.

    1. valentine*

      If you find the laughter disruptive, you can close your door if you haven’t already, and, if that doesn’t help, text her to close her door. No doors? Ask her to laugh less loudly because of the (gross) literal open-door policy. I would rather not talk to coworkers during a fire drill.

      Try not to care. She’ll do well or she won’t. It’s a management problem or it isn’t.

  85. Brave Little Toaster*

    Training resources? Apropos of the “bored and burned out at work” update from yesterday, I am trying to make my time at my current job more satisfying by learning new transferrable skills. I’ve taken on several tasks areas that I have no background or training in, but I’d like to. So I would love any suggestions on training or best practices in:
    – Basic (very basic) coding and website design (I manage our WordPress site with the help of a developer but WordPress is pretty idiot-proof)
    – Email marketing — everything from coding and how to build the email to analytics. I can alter our developer-provided code to do things like change a font, but not much beyond that.
    – Digital advertising
    – Graphic design principles and programs

    My actual day-to-day job (versus my job description) has migrated a LOT over the past few years, and I’d like to know the “right” way to do some of these things rather than just the way I figured out how to do it because it got assigned to me!

    2. foxing in the stacks*

      Check out Lynda, likely available through your local library for free. All sorts of training videos on there! In fact your local library is a good source to check out in general as they may offer short courses or online programs in things like this for free periodically. Mine does!

  86. boringname123*

    Do you have advice for switching jobs while also switching careers?

    I’m working on a complete career change that involves a masters program with night and weekend classes beginning in January. But I’m also looking for a new job in my current field and have a few interviews in the next few weeks. I’m in senior enough roles that I think this would be looked down upon by prospective employers. My inclination is not to mention it in interviews, but that will certainly create awkwardness when the program starts.

    1. BeeGee*

      I don’t think you would have to disclose your masters program unless you think it might conflict with the new job (more along the lines if you have to leave right after work for the classes, will you be in a role/environment where this is okay or are long hours expected?). Even then, I don’t see why you have to disclose what your masters program is in, you could just frame it as taking classes and certain days you will have to leave at x time so you can attend the classes.

      Outside of that, just make sure that you’re able to dedicate enough time to both responsibilities. Entering a new job can be a struggle in itself, with the work environment and work load/expectations take time to get a feel for once starting and it’s especially important in the first few months to develop a good reputation at the firm. Plenty of people are totally capable of juggling both, but just be prepared to make the extra efforts so you can excel in your coursework as well as in the potentially new role.

  87. anonforthispost*

    I’ve been working part-time in a Teapot Creation department for a few years and I’ve been looking for a full-time job for a long time. I have not talked to my coworkers or my boss about my job search and when I’m (very) rarely asked about it, I just answer that I’m looking but with no further comments.

    I have a coworker who is a Teapot Coordinator & it’s the exact type of job I’ve applying to. The problem is that I don’t ever work with him & my lack of experience has been my main problem when applying for jobs.

    How do I go about asking if I can take on some of his work so I can get this experience? Should I just be up front to my manager and say I’ve been looking for a Teapot Coordinator position and that’s why I want the extra work?

    1. Mellow*

      Even though you’re doing this for own growth, you might discuss this with your boss by framing your request as though it would benefit your company. Link your desire to learn to a greater cause, in other words.

      “Hey boss, I’ve been thinking about my role and responsibilities, and I think I can accomplish A, B, and C better/faster/fewer costs/etc. if I can shadow Bob X number of hours a week/month,” or something similar.

      If you somehow can quantify that the company would benefit from your learning and applying these new skills to your current role, it seems someone would take you up on it.

      Good luck!

  88. Education Anon*

    Hyperspecific question of the day:

    Anyone in education admissions know how much Ravenna Solutions software costs? My school is trying to get a sense of how much it costs before we go through a demo and google-fu has failed up.

  89. Dr. Doll*

    Hi everyone, update from a couple of weeks ago when I asked for input on whether to hire very good but not great candidates: I am hiring one of them and am extremely pleased about it. You were all totally right — knowledgeable, reliable, kind, excellent references = future rock star.

    The other one, as I thought more and talked to the team more, I had serious concerns about, so we have a new search for that position.

    Thanks so much!

  90. BeenThere*

    I want to be transparent here that I did submit this question to AAM some months ago, and my question just has not made it to the top of the pile. (I know Alison has a HUGE pile of questions.) But the time has arrived when I need some answers, so I am turning to you all.

    I plan to give notice to my employers this month that I am retiring. I’d prefer to move to half-time (3 days/week) rather than totally retire, but if they can’t work with me on that, then I’ll just totally retire.

    What I want to know is, how do I ask to go to half-time?

    Some background: I am a content developer (writer) for a successful non-profit. A couple other content developers are half-time, but I think they were working here for quite a long time before going to half-time. I have been here only three years, which is really, really short compared to most content developers here. I don’t want to ask them how they negotiated their schedule because I don’t quite trust them not to talk about our conversation. I don’t want the manager to know about my plans until I get to address them with her myself.

    I think there is a reasonable-ish chance that they might say yes, at least for the short term. One content developer is out for an extended leave, and it takes this company quite a while to find new content developers.

    And also, I guess I have another question. How do I know if I’d really want to go to half-time? I don’t really know what it would be like. I’ve never done it. I’ve been working full time for 47 years. I have plans for what I will do in retirement. And I have the money saved to fund a retirement. But I’m not sure I want to quit cold-turkey (so to speak).

    I’d love to hear from anyone who has actually done this: gone from full-time to part-time at retirement age.

    1. Asenath*

      I haven’t done it myself, but I’m playing with the idea. I think my situation may be different. I’ve actually retired, but my end date is early January – I wanted to give them lots of notice because of the slowness in getting a replacement, because it’s been a good place to work, and also I trust them not to try to shove me out the door earlier. I have a LOT of leave time (unionized worker, and current contract allows a lot of carry-over). I said I wanted the time and not the money, but I could be flexible on that if needed – I’ve already taken some of it; I can see it working out that I make some agreement for the last month or two to work half-time or something rather than claiming all my leave and going. As for whether I’d like part-time; I think I would. I’ve really liked all the long weekends I’ve been treating myself to! Unfortunately, due to some co-workers’ summer holidays, I’m working all of this and next week.

      People in similar positions with my employer have agreed to come back after retirement for short periods and sometimes part-time. That’s usually arranged when the employer realized that they aren’t going to get a replacement in time, or they did, but she needs training, so they ask their departing employee if they’re willing to help out (for pay, of course).

      As I said, I started the process by retiring and saying I could be flexible on the transition period, and waiting to see how that works out. But you could certainly say as part of the retirement conversation that you’d be interested and available if they needed some extra help. In my world, that’s not an unusual suggestion. A lot of people work after retirement, and some of them do little short-term or part-time contracts in their former industry.

      1. valentine*

        I did submit this question to AAM some months ago
        You can email her or reply with a link so she’ll see this, on the off chance it’s in her queue.

    2. SherSher*

      I haven’t yet done it but my boss and I have discussed it. I would say, just ask! Say: I am thinking of putting in for my retirement, but what I ‘d really like to do is go part time for a while. Phrase it in a way that it benefits the company… ease the transition for them, allow time to train new people, still have your knowledge and history, etc. And if you want to put a time stamp on it you can. “Ideally I’d work two years part time and then go full retirement” or some such. Good luck!

  91. Curveball*

    So I’ve been in my job for about a year, I’m going through my second review cycle within this role.

    My company has decided every job should have a report card that we are measured against, which is perfectly reasonable.

    However I got mine today and it has several things that I had no idea were part of my job or expected. They are things my manager has never mentioned or put focus on. My job is very project based so my manager determines most of what I do. They are not out of scope for what my role could make sense to do but they’ve just never been mentioned or indicated in anyway that they were part of the job.

    Is there anyway to push back or bring this up?

    1. Frankie*

      I don’t see a problem with mentioning the above with some tweaks–particularly how you see that these skills do apply to your role, just that you weren’t aware of them. I’d say you’d like some clarification of expectations, sorry if you missed anything but since these particular things weren’t mentioned specifically you weren’t working on them specifically, you were trying to work on “x” and “y.” Frame it as wanting to be successful and needing clarity about how to do that.

      Do you have a job description you can point back to? Any previous performance documentation?

      1. Curveball*

        Appreciate the advice. My gut reaction was how it was unfair to be measured by things I didn’t know where part of my job but I know that’s not the best reaction.

        I never got a job description – it was an internal transfer. The feedback from my last review didn’t mention any of the things that are now listed as things I’m supposed to have done.

    2. Kittens Kittens Kittens*

      Who wrote this? Your boss or someone else?

      If it was someone else I would start by asking if your boss even knows what’s in it!

    3. Lilysparrow*

      I would bring this up as a concern about making sure you are performing well. Book a meeting with your manager to go over the new report card, and bring a copy of your last review.
      “I’m hoping you can clarify your expectations for me on X, Y, and Z. Of course I *can* do them, but this is really the first I’ve heard about them being part of my role. Were you expecting me to be dealing with them all along? I’m just not sure if there’s a backlog you want me to take care of, or just start doing this going forward, or what?”

  92. Jesse*

    How do you deal with a situation when you are put on a team of 3 and 1 of those people, quite honestly, kinda sucks at their job? He is kind, friendly, but just isn’t great at producing work or responding in time. Management knows, and expects us to sort it out ourselves. This is a new team arrangement starting next month and I’ve been forewarned.

    HELP.

    1. Kathenus*

      Do your work, do it well, but don’t cover for them or pick up their portion of the work. If you and the other coworker prioritize making the team projects get done versus everyone doing their part, management will have no reason to ever change anything. And have all assignments between the three of you documented in writing so that it’s crystal clear who is supposed to do what, as back up for if/when things go undone by bad coworker.

    2. Scaramouche*

      DOCUMENT. If you’re working with them directly, try and do things in writing over email or chat, and keep a record of your interactions. That way if you have an opportunity to tell your manager you’re concerned with the quality of his work/can’t delegate to them and trust it’ll be done, you have documentation. I’m in the situation and I sympathize.

    3. NicoleK*

      You have my sympathy. I’m in the same boat. I’m on a team of 3 and both of my coworkers suck at their job. I finally stopped covering for both of them. Clued my conflict avoidant boss in on the situation. Her solution is to divvy up our tasks. While this is a start, I’m not confident that she’ll hold them accountable.

    4. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Yeah, I’m in this boat too right now, and have to manage this person. Let me tell you its not… good. I got a similar unhelpful response from Management. I completely second documentation – I don’t remember verbal stuff very well so I am big on email communication and let people know that, and also send around weekly emails to confirm what people are working on so that it is clear what the expectations and deliverables are and timelines. Its total Paper Trail but I had problems with my person on a prior, very easy project (that they couldn’t complete and I have to finish) because they didn’t take notes, didn’t listen well, and didn’t follow directions.

    5. Bopper*

      Keep track of tasks in something like MS project and what % complete they are.
      Have a weekly email /meeting with boss on how things are going.

      “We have finished the spout and handle design, but the body is only at 20%. Bob says he could do in in 2 weeks but that was 3 weeks ago. “

  93. Diamond*

    I’m sitting here in tears, because I’m frustrated with myself and my work right now.

    My boss and coworkers, in a private team meeting, has said some of the most ignorant things about people of color and people who are on food assistance (WHICH is the program we work for!!) This is only my second job after school, but my previous work in the same field, this has never happened.

    I am black, my office is majority white. My team is all white. My coworkers and boss made multiple comments at our meeting about “they want us to increase diversity? We already have Diamond. Let’s put her face on everything so they think we have diversity.” And then “Well if we really want diversity, let’s just import more black people and make them mate with the white people. That’ll make some diversity.” Everything was said as a joke but I felt so, so uncomfortable. This has been the tip of the iceberg with uncomfortable comments, but this was my red line.

    I thought about going to my boss and talking to her. However, she encouraged these comments and said a few herself. She also has retaliated before against a previous coworker from what I understand. I also don’t think it will be fruitful and will just alienate me further, but in a way it will make me feel better just to let her know the meeting on Wednesday made me really uncomfortable.

    I have considered going to HR, but I have been told time and again that our HR person is useless. The last time I went to him for something (another racist comment) he told me that I need to resolve things interpersonally.

    I am so beyond frustrated at myself that I didn’t have the courage to speak up in the moment, but I feel alone, and I feel scared at times. I can’t concentrate on my work. If I decide to say something to my boss today, a day and a half will have passed since the meeting. I didn’t want to say anything yesterday for fear of her not attending the big meeting I had on Thursday.

    Friends think I should just ignore and document it and save my mental health. Confronting my boss about the meeting one on one is a professional measure she doesn’t deserve they say. Others think I have to say something for the greater good. I don’t know what to do. Should I speak to my supervisor? Go to HR again? Keep my head down and look for another job?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Is this a non-profit? Is there a board of directors? C-level folks? I would report this to the highest possible person you can because it’s absolutely atrocious behavior.

      Don’t be frustrated about not speaking up in the moment. That is shocking to hear and you need to protect your own mental and emotional well being.

      1. Diamond*

        This is a state government department. I am just so afraid that it’s going to backfire on me going to the highest person… but I am going to continue to document at the very least.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Do you have any white coworkers you would trust to address it? I can totally understand why you’d be hesitant to, but this sounds like a great opportunity for an ally to step up and taken on some emotional labor.

          1. Diamond*

            I don’t… I’m still so new here that I don’t know many people outside my team. I feel like due to the culture, people would brush it off as a stupid joke. I did reach out to one coworker in another department who is a woman of color in hopes to talk to her about it. An ally would be really nice.

        2. Gumby*

          That sounds horrifying.

          It also sounds like it would make an excellent local news expose but that is only if you are happy burning that bridge as you walk away.

    2. Jesse*

      Ah, the fake diversity/inclusion to make a workplace look great but in principle, is a farce. I can’t say what you should do because you’re the one who will suffer for it. This is not acceptable.

      On one hand, you might want to buckle down and ride out the wave until you find new work.

      On the other hand, and at great risk to your job, you might want to approach your boss and discuss what diversity/inclusion actually means. Your fellow employees seem to think that diversity is just adding another black person in the room, rather than create a situation where the unique backgrounds of people come together to create a strong workforce that represents everyone. You might even want to lay it on the table like that. I do think this is a very risky option though and it really depends on you.

      1. Diamond*

        It does feel extremely risk. While I know I won’t be fired, I will probably be iced out. God. I feel useless. I appreciate the support though. I want to just scream at one of them, but I feel frozen. I don’t know. I don’t think talking to her is going to happen today. If it happens again (it probably will) I think I have to do something. Until then, I’m hoping I’ll find a job with a more inclusive work place.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yup – it’s time to job hunt full stop. Eff this job, your boss, and your lousy coworkers. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

          1. tangerineRose*

            I hope you find a better job soon! The boss sounds absolutely terrible – saying some of those things, putting up with the rest, and icing people out. I think you should do what’s best for you.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      I’m not sure if this is something that you would be comfortable with or would go over well…. but what about in the moment just saying some small indicator that you’re uncomfortable + a subject change so you don’t have to have a long discussion?

      “Wooowwwwww. So anyways, if we want the to budget to do…”
      “Well, that’s not really appropriate. How about we dive into reviewing these accounts instead?”

      Sigh. I don’t love it now that I’ve written it out – like I couldn’t see myself doing that if, for example, it was a group of men bashing women and I was the only woman in the room :/

      Even if you want to try that, I think you should also job hunt. That’s just terrible on principal/moral grounds to have a nonprofit where the staff are bashing many of the people they are there to help.

    4. Lucette Kensack*

      Holy wow, Diamond, that is awful. I am so sorry that this is happening to you.

      First: I hope you can give yourself grace. If you heard about a friend in a similar situation, I doubt you’d be frustrated with her — you’d be outraged on her behalf, and sympathetic to the fear and exhaustion that she was experiencing, right? Give yourself the same credit. You don’t have to have a perfect response to your racist boss and colleagues in order to deserve a safe and respectful workplace.

      Second: I suspect that you’re going to want to leave this job. That is not right — you shouldn’t have to leave. But you deserve better than this workplace and these colleagues, so I’d encourage you to take some first steps toward finding a way out.

      Third: Yes, do what you need to do to take care of your mental health in the meantime. What could that look like for you? Making sure you use all your sick and vacation days? Finding a peer or mentor to talk about this with?

      Fourth: You get to decide whether you want to take this on (regardless of whether you stay here long-term or move on as quickly as possible). You’re the only one who can know the calculus of whether it’s worth it.

    5. Kathenus*

      Don’t just go to HR, create written documentation as well (and include past racist comment in this if applicable). If you write down contemporaneous notes on the comments in the meeting, schedule a meeting with HR to discuss this that includes phrasing (someone smarter than me please jump in with the best wording here) of something like ‘racially inappropriate comments’, and then do a follow up email to HR documenting what was discussed in that meeting there is now a written record that might be needed in the future if this is escalated.

      You can’t control whether or not HR handles this as they should (but you can increase the chances with the appropriate wording and having everything in writing) but you can control your response by not letting this go by without reporting it. The written documentation can hopefully protect you from retaliation, in fact you may want to specifically discuss fear of retaliation during your HR meeting and capture it in your post-meeting documentation email. This might all be useful if you do go to a board or further up the chain of command.

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this, and I know it’s oh so easy to sit at my computer and suggest you do all this. I hope that you are able to find a resolution that works for you. Good luck.

    6. Justin*

      Don’t be mad at yourself, please. Racism is both ordinary and pervasive and if we fought every battle perfectly and immediately we would be superheroes.

      Write it down, document, dates, people, times, and then as far up the ladder as you reasonably can (to where they’ll all feel shaken). I had to do this myself, it did eventually work (I’m sure dude is still racist but he shut the F up), it was very uncomfortable but overall longterm empowering.

      1. Justin*

        Excuse me, and then GO as far…

        Typo there.

        You should also tell HR but more of a “I’m telling the board/ED/whatever” heads-up than expecting them to deal. And document how you were told to handle it yourself at first.

    7. Marley*

      I’m so sorry, Diamond. That’s just so transparently bad.

      I agree with all the others to write up notes–do it now with as much as you can remember of who said what–and email it to your personal email account, which adds a time stamp.

      There may be other reporting mechanisms than HR–if the state agency or state government has an office on diversity issues, that’s one option, as is any mechanism for internal whistle-blowing.

      I hope you can find a new job somewhere else, and thank you for your public service working in food assistance.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      That is DISGUSTING. I won’t echo others’ advice, just here’s a *hug*.

      Also fellow white people, speak up when this happens, goddamn it.

    9. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

      I am horrified for you and I am so sorry you are in this position. You deserve a work place where none of this is an issue.

      There are a few things I can think of, none of which are without risk for you. Your mental health is as high a priority as any other here and its not your job to dismantle institutional racism.

      One of the things I can think of is interacting with either your state legislator (if you have reason to believe that he/she has enough care re racism to care) or another state legislator who you know does. It’s usually easy to get a one-on-one office appointment with a state legislator, and they have staff and resources to help if the office is well run.

      We can think of a dozen ways this can blow up, can’t we? BUT a good state legislator (the ones in my district are good) knows her way around the state government structure, cares about change, and can give you good, discreet advice. It is your state legislator’s job to help with constituent problems, and you’re a constituent as well as an employee of the state.

      Now, if your state reps are cigar chomping white dinosaurs in the framework of a state government that is majority same, I don’t think that route is helpful. If the profile is more progressive, this might be helpful.

      Best!

    10. Mellow*

      This so WTAF terrible that I would really like to know Alison’s take on it.

      I’m so sorry, Diamond. No one should have to put up with such racist horse shit.

  94. anonymityfornow*

    I need advice about screwing up a possible recommendation from an old professor.

    I graduated college three years ago. I’m a naturally super quiet, shy, reserved person and have difficulty keeping in touch with people I don’t see every day, but managed to semi keep in touch with my old advisor who I also took a ton of classes with. Last year I was going to apply for a Fulbright (so would’ve been starting this fall), but ended up deciding to delay my application for a year. But before I decided to delay, he worked with me a lot last summer to get an application going, reviewed my essays, etc (he is also the Fulbright advisor for my school, so he works with all students from my school applying and there are internal school deadlines). He was also going to write me one of my recommendations.

    When I told him that I wasn’t applying last year, but would apply again this year, he put me back on the list of interested people, included me in his emails, and I filled out a form this May confirming my interest. There was a deadline to send him our “draft” essays by July 1st and it would have been SO easy for me to do because I already had the one from last year, but life happened (super long term relationship breakup, really sick dad, etc) and it slipped my mind until a few weeks ago when it was well past the deadline and my anxiety has prevented me from sending him any emails since. Which obviously looks super bad that I ghosted and I’ve clearly been removed from his distribution list as I haven’t gotten anymore emails.

    At this point, I don’t even want to apply to a Fulbright anymore, but I’ve always been planning to go to grad school (either applying this fall or next), and am also semi-interested in applying to another Fulbright-type opportunity that but also requires recommendations. So now I’m super stressed and anxious how to repair this because why would he give me a positive recommendation letter for school or this other program after I’ve been so unreliable? The grad schools I will be applying to require recommendations from three people and most like at least one professor, but I’ve kept in contact with no other professors so I’m extremely at a loss right now. Do you all think there’s ANY way to repair this?

    1. fposte*

      anon, this is so not a big deal. I promise you that lots of people who were initially interested in the Fulbright didn’t send him an essay, and I bet unless they specifically asked, he pruned them all off the notifications list.

      All you need is “Hi, Professor Snape–Unfortunately, it didn’t turn out to be a good year for me to try for Fulbright, as you’ve likely already guessed. However, I’m looking into grad school applications for this fall. Do you think you’d be able to write a recommendation for me? If so, I’ll give you more information when plans are clearer about which programs I’m looking at.”

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      Yes. Send him an email now (like, this weekend). Apologize for disappearing, thank him for all the help he’s given you, let him know that you’ve decided not to apply for a Fulbright, and give him a (very brief — like one sentence) update on what you’ve been up to.

      Your tone is important here. It should be mildly apologetic, but matter-of-fact and professional.

      Like so:

      Dr. X —

      I realized that I’ve been out of touch since [whenever] and wanted to give you a quick update.

      After some further consideration, I’ve decided not to apply for a Fulbright after all. I appreciate all you’ve done to support me in this process, and I apologize that I didn’t keep you in the loop about my decision over the past couple of months.

      I’m still thinking about my next steps, which may include [Other Fellowship] and, eventually, grad school.

      Thank you again! I hope you’re well.

      Best,

      anonymityfornow

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I agree with this formatting; I wouldn’t bring up that you’re looking for a recommendation now unless you actually need it now.

    3. House Tyrell*

      You should definitely reach out and explain the situation to try and repair the relationship. I will say that as a recent MA graduate, you almost definitely need a professor’s rec letter for graduate school applications. I’m not sure what field you’re going into, but that’s pretty much universal. If you’ve worked with this professor a lot before and have demonstrated reliability and consistency in the past and this was just a one time slip up, then I’m sure they will be understanding.

      1. JaneB*

        I’m an academic and this happens quite often. Follow the advice above and I think you’ll be fine, I certainly wouldn’t hold it against a student…

    4. LibbyG*

      I’m also a professor (like fposte and LK) and, yeah, not at all a big deal. Both of their scripts would be great. Maybe you can add a sentence or two saying that, in working through the essays the prior summer, you learned a lot about the direction you want to go in and so now you’re considering graduate study in XYZ. Just to confirm that the work he did with you helped your professional development. That’s always nice to hear.

      1. Reba*

        This is a great tip! I agree with others that this situation is exceedingly… normal. :)

        To address your other worry, anonymityfornow, regarding not being in touch with other faculty members whom you will ask for recommendation letters — also completely normal and not something you need to worry about. Go ahead and contact them soon, and make sure to include information about what you did in their courses and how their teaching shaped your path, so they will remember you. I bet they’ll be glad to hear from you!

        It’s fine. You’re fine. These people are just professors, not God!! (I say this because back when I was in grad school, many people in the cohort loved to spin the hamster wheel of anxiety about intimidating profs and like… this doesn’t help your work! As a graduate / someone considering graduate school, you now have a more collegial relationship with your professors.

        Good luck with your applications.

    5. Bopper*

      What would you do if you weren’t afraid?

      “Professor X,
      I want to thank you so much for your support when I was considering applying for a Fulbright.
      Because of my father’s protracted illness that was not in the cards, but now I am ready to move forward with my graduate studies. I am writing to ask if you would be willing to write a recommendation for me.
      I am looking at grad studies in underwater basketweaving. I have also taken note of the Fulbright-type opportunity and was wondering what your thoughts were on that as an opportunity for me.”

    6. Mellow*

      If it’s any consolation, I am an academic librarian, and as such, help a lot of students search the library’s collection for sources.

      Periodically, I’ll routinely help the same students over the course of a semester or even a year or more, and through this I see their work habits, self-discipline, and dedication to their majors and future vocations.

      Many of these students will ask me to be a reference for graduate school or employment, but then I don’t hear from them for a while or at all. If I do hear from them at a later date, I never think to hold their “absence” against them. I simply go with what I knew of them previously. This is a very long agreement with JaneB’s response.

  95. Notice Nina*

    I’m hoping to receive a job offer in the near future, which will mean putting in my 2 weeks at my current job. During what will hopefully be my notice period, I have a PTO day already approved and a doctor’s appointment for which I will be using a couple hours of sick time. Do I need to account for these and basically put in my 2 weeks + 1.5 days notice? Or am I okay with the regular 2 weeks?

    1. Kathenus*

      I think you’re fine. If you had a whole week off or something, it might be good politically to offer a longer notice but I think for this 1 1/2 day you’re fine, and I wouldn’t even mention them in your resignation letter. Just say when your last day is, the time off is already approved and on the books so you don’t need to address that at all.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      When I resigned from my last job and had an approved personal day on the calendar (to celebrate my birthday), I just didn’t take the day off and made my birthday the last day since it was on a Friday. I did take my dental appointments though, and those lasted hours, but my manager didn’t care. You may not have to give up your day, but I felt I had to, otherwise, it wouldn’t have technically been a full two weeks notice – I don’t want anyone to be able to say to future reference checkers that I didn’t give this company the proper notice.

  96. Wish I Was A Farmer*

    Can someone please help me understand what exactly being “controlling” is in a workplace? I’m one of the newest hires in a small team and my manager keeps telling me that I’m too “controlling”.

    What’s happened so far is that our schedule and work priorities keep changing (we work in a school/camp setting) and I first did freak out a little, only because I didn’t receive any training or an orientation. If I asked questions, I would be told to chill out and to stop thinking about something outside of my control. And if I ended up making mistakes, my manager would chastize me in front of the whole team!

    I’ve tried to loosen up and become more go with the flow for these events (because no one in my team asks any questions at all…) but that has basically led me to shut up and not ask any questions, for fear of my manager telling me off in front of everyone. But now, I only sometimes ask questions for clarification to make sure I’m on the same page as everyone (“Hey guys, this event was cancelled today so do you want me to move up the llama shearing by 15 minutes?”) or to try to make things flow easier (“Arya is stuck in a meeting till 4:30 so should I drop off these documents before or keep waiting for her?”). Yet now my manager has told me that I’m still too controlling over the schedule and that he will make an effort to point out everytime I’m doing so, in hopes of me becoming a better worker…

    I still don’t understand what I’m doing so wrong and would appreciate another perspective on this :( I’ve never had a supervisor tell me about this problem of mine so I’m really confused on how to proceed.

    1. fposte*

      What this sounds like is a very poor manager (the pointing out every time you’re “doing so” sounds more neener-y than helpful) and a deeply disorganized setup, so it’s hard for me to tell if there’s something you’re actually doing wrong or not.

      What it does sound like is that you were hired for a job that doesn’t value what you bring to this–that they exist by throwing stuff together at the last minute and expecting people to roll with that, and they’re uncomfortable with efforts to create any structure and would rather risk dropping balls than planning for who needs to catch them. This sounds like a nightmare to me in any setting with kids (makes me wonder about their protocols around safety) and also a personal nightmare for people like me and, I suspect, people like you, who think things run better with a little planning.

      So I think the question you ask is whether or not you can live with this and for how long.

      1. Wish I Was A Farmer*

        Thank you, I’m glad I’m not the crazy one here? All the other team members seem to also think of me as a controlling, unflexible newbie – even the other new hires! Who seem to automatically understand stuff without asking any questions and are never called out for their mistakes. I would just appreciate it if I was allowed to ask questions to have a better peace of mind (so I won’t be called out for making a mistake) but this has literally never happened to me before in a workplace.

        1. valentine*

          I think everyone’s faking it because they don’t want the public shaming and humiliation.

          It sounds like he wants a clockless culture. I don’t understand how they work. Is there someone always home in case the plumber wants to drop by that day? Were you meant to nap or sit idly while waiting for Arya? This nonsense isn’t a good fit for you and you can’t magically do what this guy wants just by him saying whatever you just did is wrong.

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      Is it possible this could be about tone of voice? Perhaps combined with history?

      If you “freaked out a bit” at first about schedule changes, they could still be reading your comments that way. As more freaking out. There is a passive aggressive way to say, “should I move the llama shearing meeting?” and maybe you’re coming across that way? Or maybe they’re reading it that way based on their assumptions about your because of your past behavior.

      Maybe try to change your pattern up as much as possible from the way you were doing it before. Avoiding questions might be one way: “OK. Since the event was canceled, I’ve moved up the llama shearing by 15 minutes. Let me know if that doesn’t work for anybody.” “I need to go drop off these documents; if Arya happens to get out of her meeting before I get back, I won’t be but a few minutes. [or in this case, maybe just sent a message to Arya that you’re doing that and don’t involve anybody else]”

      The key would be to go an annoyed and/or panicked message of “Ugh, the schedule CHANGED AGAIN, what I am supposed to do NOW?” to a calm “I am on top of the changes that need to be made because of schedule shifts and I am communicating that information to everyone who needs to know it.”

      1. Wish I Was A Farmer*

        This was definitely something I thought about as well but I don’t ever remember giving attitude or a rude tone before. I’ve always tried to be respectful and even timid when asking questions so I was even more confused by the aggressiveness I was getting back. Believe me, I would’ve died of embarrassment if I ever acted rudely towards my superiors (thanks to my Asian parents being really gungho about respect).

        I freaked out once because of a scenario happening that was out of my control and I thought I handled it professionally enough without any guidance… until my manager spent 20 minutes berating me and how I don’t understand how it works here. On my 3rd day of work. I basically wasn’t supposed to talk about our school program to a new instructor because I’m a lowly assistant and not the manager :) So I ended up asking more questions (What should I do next time? What if X and Y?) Which made my manager even angrier since I keep asking so many questions? It’s just strange because I’m told to use my best judgment and then scolded in front of everyone for my mistakes.

        But I will definitely take your advice on less questions and being more direct. I’ll also try to be more alert on my tone and words!

        1. tangerineRose*

          Your boss sounds awful – you can’t ask questions, but you’re supposed to magically get everything perfect, or your boss will yell at you? Can you ask some of your coworkers how they deal with your boss?

    3. Bopper*

      There are no dumb questions, just dumb times to ask them.

      Perhaps your boss doesn’t mean you are too controlling, but are dealing in things that are outside your job scope.
      So if you are the Arts and crafts person, but its raining and they can’t do canoeing, it isn’t your role to rejigger the schedule. Is it a reasonable way to go? probably. Does the boss have a bigger picture of other activities that could happen? Maybe. Does the boss know that having 15 min of slack for the kids will be just fine?Maybe.
      Was the boss going to figure this out before you piped up? maybe.
      Is the boss a disorganizational mess?maybe

      Or it could be that you are a type that likes a schedule and knowing when things will happen, and the boss is a “go with the flow” type.

      But in any case it is good to observe your work culture and see when you can give input and when you can’t. or who you can’t give it to.. Maybe in this case you could quietly mention your idea it to the Asst Boss.

      Or maybe ask in another way:
      When you say:
      “Hey guys, this event was cancelled today so do you want me to move up the llama shearing by 15 minutes?”)
      it sounds like 1) you are addressing the group, not the boss
      2) You have decided on a solution

      You could phrase it as providing options:
      “If you want to fill the time in, one thing we could do is move up the llama shearing.”

    4. Lilysparrow*

      It sounds like maybe you are trying to optimize things on a systemic level. You are seeing that as good teamwork and collaboration. And in many contexts, it would be valuable.

      Maybe the manager sees your role as more limited in scope, and only wants you to do the one task as assigned.

      Or maybe they’re just a crazy maker, who knows?

      But one thing you could do is ask one of your experienced peers privately, “Hey, when there’s a schedule change, how do you find out about it? What do you do if your group activity is cancelled? Do you go to the next thing, or what? I seem to be making mistakes, but I can’t figure out how to avoid them.”

      It’s possible there is a lot of institutional knowledge about the way things work, that’s passed on verbally or informally rather than documented. And some temperaments cope with that better than others. (I am one that does not, but I see it often).

      But either way, your manager stinks. No halfway decent manager (or person, really) corrects a mistaken action by calling it a personality trait!

      And please don’t take their comments personally. If you’re called out for a mistake, go back later and ask what you should do instead, and how to know the right response in similar situations.

      Be confident that you are not the crazy one here. You are trying to understand & do the right thing. That’s what a good worker does. But in order for that to happen, somebody has to tell you!

  97. feminzagul*

    Hi everyone,

    I have a question on behalf of my boyfriend – he currently does a variety of app-based delivery jobs (Uber Eats, Amazon Flex, etc.). I’m trying to figure out how to format this on his resume. I figure the best thing to do is just list the job as Delivery Driver, but do we need to convey all the different apps he’s done the work for? I tried to see if Allison had posted about this before but couldn’t find anything. Advice and/or links to posts she’s written about this would be great! Thanks.

      1. feminazgul*

        Listing all 4+ apps he’s working for doing basically the same tasks would totally eat away at his resume space, I think. I’d been thinking something like Delivery Driver in the top position and then listing the various apps in parenthesis below (to get that name recognition you mentioned) but I agree with the person who commented below that I think Allison covering this herself or through an ask the readers thing would be best. Thanks for weighing in!

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I think the app-based gig economy, and the way it’s represented on resumes, would be a great topic for Alison to cover in an article or more open-ended post, like a Thursday ask-everyone post.

      There are so many people working those jobs, and there’s so little information on how to transition that into a employee or staff job.

      1. feminazgul*

        Agreed! I hesitate to list them all separately because he’s working for anywhere between 3-4 different apps but essentially doing the same tasks. Listing them all separately would eat in to his resume space hugely. Maybe I’ll email Allison directly to request this as a topic. Thanks!

    3. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      I would list them all together like:

      Delivery/ Driver
      *Uber Jan 2017-present
      *Lyft Aug 2018-present
      *Instacart Feb 2019-present
      -Accomplishment (5* rating on Uber)
      -Accomplishment (98% accuracy rating on TaskRabbit)
      -Accomplishment

      1. Joielle*

        I think this is the best option. You could even put all the apps and dates on one line to save space. Like:

        Delivery/ Driver
        Uber Jan 2017-present; Lyft Aug 2018-present; Instacart Feb 2019-present
        -Accomplishment (5* rating on Uber)
        -Accomplishment (98% accuracy rating on TaskRabbit)
        -Accomplishment

        2. Patty Mayonnaise*

          I’m a freelancer and organize my resume this way – I would suggest formatting it like Respectfully so that the companies are more visible, even if it’s taking up more room. I’ve had an interviewer miss Very Impressive Companies on my resume because I put them in a line instead of separate paragraphs. I mentioned the companies in the interview, and the interviewer looked more closely and circled the companies in my resume. I changed the formatting to highlight the company myself after that!

  98. Upset*

    I started a new position as an admin at a small company. There is no HR; I work directly with the owner who pays me directly in cash. I view this as an extended freelance position, and it’s typical for me to be paid with cash.

    We have worked together for about six weeks. Last week, he called me at home on the weekend asking to borrow money from me. I was obviously concerned and take aback. Right now he owes me for about a month of wages, and I have no idea when I can expect to see that.

    I don’t know what to do – do I continue showing up a few times a week while I’m looking for a new job? Or do I walk off and possibly not get paid at all? I feel depressed and confused about this.

    It’s obvious that this job is a joke, but what’s the best way to handle this? It seems like he’s going through some personal issues and I feel very resentful at myself for getting involved with working with this person.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, this is all kinds of illegal. And right now I would say you don’t have a job; you have an illegal volunteer position. Since you’re not getting paid, you might as well spend your unpaid time looking for paid work, and file with your state’s DOL or equivalent to get your owed money. I would definitely not keep showing up just in case a guy who hasn’t paid you and has instead asked to borrow money *from* you suddenly found enough cash.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        + 1,000

        I’m sorry, Upset, but you don’t have a job. File with the Department of Labor like fposte said and job search like crazy. I hope you find something better soon.

    3. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      Nope nope nope nope this is so shady. Nope yourself right out of there and file for unpaid wages.

  99. House Tyrell*

    Thank you everyone who responded with advice for my friend whose job fired her after a few weeks when they decided to hire a late applicant who already had a license to get a a refund on my friend’s licensing exam. I’m happy to say that she was able to quickly find a job! She left the short-term position off her resume, confirmed that her previous role wouldn’t say she was “fired” so she could leave that box unchecked, and when asked in the interview, just briefly summarized the situation in a relatively neutral way. I found out after my original question that her old job tried to make her feel bad for being upset by stressing that they were a nonprofit working with children with mental disabilities and she should want them to save money by not paying for her licensing so more money can go to ~the children~ (which I’m pretty sure if not how budgets work but okay.) All in all, I think it worked out for the best. She was able to leave an org who apparently treats their employees pretty poorly IMO and since she wasn’t there very long, her applications at other orgs from her original job search were still open. These may not have been her first choice, but at least they are in her field and she has gainful employment again!

    1. new kid*

      That situation sounded so messed up (and even more so here, “but think of the ~children”!), I’m so glad for the update that’s she’s moved on to a better situation!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Same. That company didn’t deserve her (or any of their good employees really).

  100. VictoriaQ*

    Hi guys! I know about a month or so ago I was talking about my job which was hideously boring. But now I’m writing in because the job is still boring but now I’m in tears about it. A lot is my boss (CFO, very small company) and the culture/atmosphere, which is very negative and involves complaining about stuff to bond.

    And honestly I’ve started job searching but since my last job search took nine months, I’m not that hopeful. That being said, how have you guys dealt with being in a negative work environment? Some of this is my anxiety about learning new things because I’ve been at this job three months and it’s my first ‘real’ job post-college. So I’m nervous about screwing up. But also there are things I’m pretty sure are normal that this workplace has made me unduly suspicious about.

    Like sometimes my boss wants me to call or email people on her behalf (note: I am the junior accountant, so most of these calls are… kinda related. Not always) and instead of thinking ‘ah, yes, my boss is busy so I should do this’ I am frustrated and wondering if my boss just doesn’t want to do something and is shoving it off on me. Bad mindset! Some of this is also because the bosses own a commercial property (offices) and keep trying to get us to do things for that property despite it having absolutely nothing to do with our jobs.

    Ex: yesterday the ceo asked if anyone in the office wanted to go with him to the property, because one of the tenants had moved out. I volunteered and found out that the ceo wanted someone to inspect the vacated office and measure all the rooms to make sure the floor plan was correct. I was in a dress and heels, and it was 90 degrees outside while we were inside an office with lots of windows and no a/c. I was not thrilled.

    And everything is under wraps until it isn’t and it’s suddenly your job to be on top of it even though you never heard of this situation until ten minutes ago. Not to mention the cfo (my boss) seems to think training people or providing support is like… optional. She wants to sit down, do it once in front of you while you take notes and that’s ‘training’.

    So basically, how did you guys handle being in a job that was Not Good and made you cry on an alarmingly regular basis?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      That sucks, Victoria! I’m sorry. I spent 14 horrid months at ToxicJob and literally would wake up with this awful pit in my upset stomach most mornings. It took me about 7 months to find a new job – and I used almost all my PTO for a bunch of interviews all over the state! My final interview – which got me my current great job of almost 5 years! – was actually my last day of PTO for the year, so I was planning to stop job hunting for awhile after it.

      In my opinion, some of it literally is mind over matter and thinking it through in the moment (like you are here) – “WOW, ToxicBoss is being lazy today!… No, no… boss is busy so I can do this to help. This also keeps me busy and is relatively easy, which is great! I’m going to do this easy task that keeps me busy and then the day goes by faster, whoo!”

      I also came up with little things that “spark joy” (haha) to help.. just get me out of bed and stop me from exploding. Maybe that means buying a expensive fancy coffee drink on the way in. Or going out for ice cream over lunch. I literally had my two 15 minute breaks on my calendar as appointments, and I always took a walk on this specific loop that I knew took 15 minutes (because good forbid I was a minute late back to my desk at ToxicJob!) and listened to an upbeat podcast or called my grandma (or someone) and caught up with her during the break.

      Do you have “free” work time or training time? Or the ability to pitch projects/get work time for professional goals? I was able to get involved with our intern program and found I enjoyed creating training materials for them and finding good resources online for them to use.

      I also was able to get my schedule adjusted (because I didn’t necessarily need to be there at the same time as everyone for my role) and I worked 6am-3pm, which meant I had *a lot* of free time in the afternoons to do things I enjoy. Then I had a “perk” with the job that I genuinely appreciated, which also helped a lot.

      Worst case scenario, find something fulfilling outside of work you can look forward to and feel useful at. For me, when I adjusted my schedule, I started volunteering at a local animal shelter reviewing applications and working with potential adopters and found lot of pride in “my work” pairing people with animals.

    2. Lizzie Bennett*

      Aside from finding a new job, I would encourage you to emotionally disengage from your work. Don’t take anything personally, don’t get invested in doing a good job, just dissociate and pretend you are a robot that can’t feel. This sounds super toxic but imagine you are forming a hard shell around yourself.

      That way when your boss says, “Can you measure this room even though you are inadequately dressed for the task?” You say “yes” and do it. You don’t grumble, you don’t feel used, you deal only with the fact that you must measure the room. When your boss suddenly gives you a task you didn’t know to do and weren’t trained on, you let go of the anxiety and embarrassment and guilt of not knowing how to do it. You simply ask how to do it, and do it. If your boss praises you, you say thank you and feel nothing, because that is bait for you to get engaged in the job again.

      The goal is to let everything flow off you like water off a duck’s back. And save your emotional energy and brainpower for hobbies after work and finding a new job.

  101. Zula Forthrast*

    I have been working in retail management for about 12 years. I manage a large store (a medium box, if you will) that makes several million a year with a staff of 20+ and I am by all accounts very successful at work. However, I absolutely hate my job. My boss is outright mean, constantly moves the goal posts for success, and will tell me to handle something one way and then get angry with me for doing exactly what she asks. I foolishly revealed a few months ago that I have been struggling with some mental health issues and ever since then I feel like I have a target on my back. I am working to get out of my current situation, but really I want to change careers.

    I am a very hard worker, I take pride in what I do, but I hate managing a large team while also being responsible for achieving sales and kpi goals, customer service, maintenance and upkeep, holding everyone accountable for upholding standards and policies, and completing large projects. It’s too much and I am so burned out, but I’ve been applying for other retail management jobs because I don’t have any other experience.

    I have a lot of skills that I think would translate to other positions but I don’t know how to convince hiring managers of that. I really want to get out of a public facing role and to be an individual contributor or maybe manage a smaller team of direct reports. My strengths at my current job lie in analyzing sales trends and coming up with merchandising and sales solutions to capitalize on those trends or improve sales in a failing category. The problem is…I have no idea what I should be applying for and I feel like no one takes my resume seriously because it’s just 15 years of retail. I’ve been applying for retail district management jobs and positions in retail operations just to get off the sales floor, but I’m not getting any interviews and I’m just starting to feel like it’s hopeless.

    Does anyone have advice on how to switch careers or make my resume look more appealing? I am open to further education (I have a Bachelor’s degree) but I am the main breadwinner for my family and cannot go back to school full time.

    1. Similar field?*

      I actually work for a retail point-of-sale-software and have worked at a retailer vendor for supplies in the past. Both companies are very interested in hiring people who have actual experience as our customers (as retailers!).

      We have had a lot of former retailers join our customer service team, forecasting department, accounting, sales representatives in the field (a lot of travel involved here), inventory services (also travel), or work in our retail locations, etc.

      Have you considered looking in that kind of direction?

    2. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      Can you look for a corporate retail merchandising position? My company is actually hiring for someone to do the merchandising directives for all of our retail branches. It’s a corporate position and requires specialized skills and we’re having a hard time filling it because of that. The skills this person would use are analyzing sales trends and helping to influence the marketing and positioning of our marketing in-store. Could be a type of role that is a good match for your skills.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        TJX seems to always have these types of positions open – I know because I keep receiving the job alerts, lol. I think something like this would be a good move for Zula.

  102. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    There was a debate at the ex employees group I’m part of now.
    This week I noticed there are more negative reviews, and someone at out ex-employer chat group ranted for a long while, calling the authors “cowards”, “traitors”, and so on. The rest of us agree those opinions are accurate, honest and necessary for those who are no longer there and for any prospective candidate. But apparently someone prefers to defend the dumpster fire that place is.

  103. Confused*

    When a job ad says “X years of experience” are required, how are you supposed to tell if it’s DIRECT experience required or if they just require generic office or professional experience? I went to a job interview today and asked how important the required “2 years of direct experience” were since I didn’t have any, and they said they just meant 2 years of general office experience and transferable skills were fine. I’ve also been in interviews were “x years relevant experience” turned out to mean general office experience too. I’m worried I’m missing out on applying to jobs that I don’t initially seem to be qualified but actually am.

    1. Parenthetically*

      Wow, yeah, I would also assume “2 years of experience” meant “2 years of experience in this fairly narrow type of job/this specific role.” “Mapmaker with 2+ years experience” = “applicant must have been working as a mapmaker for 2+ years,” not “mapmaker just starting out in mapmaking but who worked for 2 years doing land surveying previously.” Interested to hear from others though!

    2. Lizzie Bennett*

      I came into my job with 1-4 years of general office work experience, 3 of which were somewhat related, with a Bachelor’s in a social science/language. My job description requires 2-4 years experience in the specific software I started learning when I got here, and a bachelor’s degree in Business or Information Systems.

      I would try to interpret those as generously as possible when you apply. Worst case scenario, they decide you’re underqualified and you don’t get it.

  104. Used To Like This Job*

    I’m a manager now, but I didn’t mean to be. When I was hired, there were three people in my group. One retired and one left for greener pastures, leaving me alone to do three people’s job. We went through several hiring cycles, at one point we got a guy who didn’t last 6 months. The whole time I was basically running the show, and getting praise from my coworkers and my manager during performance reviews. My manager came to me and told me he got me a bonus (rare in my area of employment) and role bump to “Lead”. He told me I’d be hiring some new people and be leading all projects in my group. I was thrilled.

    Once we hired the new employees, I discovered that what “Lead” means is “Manager”, but it isn’t in my title. I sign timecards, schedule vacation/sick time, deal with HR issues (and there have been many) and spend a LOT of time in meetings. In my last performance review, it was all about my leadership abilities and not how well I accomplished technical tasks. I used to always get “Beyond Expectations” in my performance reviews, and in my last one it was just “Met expectations”. In the past two years I’ve been training my new staff *and* performing most of my group’s tasks because they’re still coming up to speed. I’ve not been able to hand off many tasks due to a combination of new projects from upper management and performance issues in some of my staff, so its really frustrating.

    My manager is now a director, and doesn’t see anything wrong with my role not matching my responsibilities. He’s willing to change the name of my job but not change the HR role (which doesn’t say anything about supervising other staff). I have coworkers with the same role who don’t supervise anyone, and I’ve spoken to other people in other units who are surprised that I’m being asked to do this.

    Frankly, I’d rather go back to being my old role. I’m good at it and I hate being a supervisor and I feel like I was tricked into becoming a manager. Should I fight to get back my old role? Or should I just give up and look for another job? It seems like most places just assume that after so many years of experience you automatically become a manager.

  105. Elizabeth West*

    I’m noticing a trend of administrative assistant job posts that ask for very industry-specific things when the job is indistinguishable from any other admin job.

    I don’t mean higher-level knowledge a supervisor needs or task-specific experience with say, court dockets. I’m talking about very basic jobs that insist on experience in THAT ACTUAL INDUSTRY as a requirement. Like “ABC Insurance is looking for an assistant,” followed by a very standard laundry list of duties indistinguishable from any other admin/receptionist job. And then it says “1-3 years in the insurance [or construction / healthcare / automotive / this particular widget manufacturing] industry required.” They don’t seem to want any kind of transferable experience — even if you’ve worked in a regulatory environment, it has to be their environment.

    Every job I’ve ever held had different forms, paperwork, and databases. Every one. Even if you worked in the same industry, a different employer would have different systems, so the requirements seem arbitrary to me.

    I have a ton of skills (well, except for accounting), but this seems to disqualify me immediately. I have not had any luck when applying to these jobs, even when I mention experience that would translate easily to the position. Is this a lazy way to avoid training new employees? How can I get around this?

    1. Parenthetically*

      No advice, but your question in the last paragraph is what I was thinking the whole time I read it. These lazy arseholes don’t want to have to take two weeks to train a new employee.

      1. fposte*

        I don’t know that that’s laziness, though; existing knowledge is a pretty common qualification for most positions. It’s a bummer for other people who are interested in the position, but if they can find people who don’t need that training, it’s reasonable for them to prefer that.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Yeah, I mean, if they want to really limit their candidate pool to only people who’ve already been admins in insurance offices before, I suppose that’s on them! But like I said, it seems very self-defeating to me.

          1. EddieSherbert*

            This was my thought too – is there really such a big pool of [field] admins that they can be this picky?

            1. fposte*

              That I dunno, and I definitely think it’s reasonable to suggest that Elizabeth apply in case they’re being overoptimistic. But if there is such a pool, I don’t blame them for wanting to hire from it.

                1. valentine*

                  For construction, they might want you to be one of few people in an office and to contact workers off-site and tell them where their next job site is. For healthcare, they probably want you to do medical billing.

          2. Fortitude Jones*

            Not for insurance it isn’t. Speaking as someone who worked in claims for years, our admins often assisted with things like filling out forms for rate filings, tracking CE units and filing forms for adjuster/agent licensing, compiling statistical data for financial reporting purposes and predictive analytics models, etc. If a lot of those things are done improperly, it can lead to massive fines DOI investigations. Sure, you could theoretically train someone to do all of that, but that kind of training would take months, and some of these insurance companies/agencies are too small and too busy for that. There are plenty of people within insurance who aren’t necessarily admins who want to move over to those roles that they can choose from, so they don’t need to hire outsiders.

    2. Frankie*

      I think it just means they’re aware that someone coming in with that context is going to need a lot less assistance getting up and running and won’t need to be watched so closely (and training new people is exhausting and very demanding–part of the package, but I don’t blame busy folks for prioritizing someone who might be a little less maintenance up front).

      That said, how picky are you sure they’ll be if you’re a strong fit otherwise? I could see addressing this in a cover letter (if you won’t be filtered out by an automated system)–saying you think your experience in “y” could contribute a lot even if you don’t have “x”? It depends on who’s hiring, but I’d always pick the best fit/skill set over “x years in our industry.”

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This isn’t too abnormal and it’s usually a way to dwindle down their applicant pool. Administrative assistant jobs can get hundreds of resumes coming in, so they want to whittle it down to people with their industry experience.

      It really does matter in some sense to that you have industry experience, despite the tasks being similar. It helps to make training faster and easier of course, it also helps to set your expectations and knowledge of their client expectations as well!

      In say real estate or insurance, they tend to be more formalized in my limited experience just as a consumer. Whereas in manufacturing or small automotive, you would find something way different.

      It’s often to help the find that spark of “culture fit” when you already have an idea that I’m going to need help with say open houses and their signage/packages vs dealing with fielding phone calls from people who have a messed up transmission.

      Personally it’s been hellish to me in the past when people are not at least somewhat familiar with our industry. They get confused by just about everything, which sure you can be taught and some people catch on quick like that. Others are on perma-struggle street trying to switch gears from their previous 8 years of being an admin in mostly real estate and then trying to steer into the pieces and parts and oily automotive world, you know?

      It’s frustrating. I’ve been there even in accounting/small business management. They didn’t want to hire me in one construction place years ago because I didn’t have experience in prevailing wage and another one’s issue was because I had never billed by job. Which is all industry specific in between the standard accounting details. [Nor did they care that I self taught myself in the first place, yeah dude, I’ll do fine with whatever specialty your business has but yeah, okay go with someone who has done it before yet done it poorly, that’s your life, you live it!].

    4. Aggretsuko*

      This is exactly why I haven’t been able to get another job in the last 6-7 years of job hunting.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Thanks everyone. FWIW, I was using insurance as an example, not that I want to work in an insurance office. Healthcare I assumed was because of HIPAA, not billing (the jobs I was looking at were in clinics and billing wasn’t listed as a job duty). I’ve given up applying to anything in CurrentCity; nobody responds to me.

      This is disheartening. I guess I’ll never work again. I’m too young for Social Security, and it’s not enough to live on anyway.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Would you consider trying to take a processing job at an insurance company or agency? Some of the processors I knew didn’t have to do anything math related, they just input claims info into the system. Then a few of them were able to move over into admin jobs after doing that for a few years.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          You guys are getting hung up on the insurance example; it was just an example. I don’t care about insurance. I’m seeing it across different industries.

          Also, I’ve been an admin for fifteen years. I’m overqualified for a lower-level job that moves up into admin work; that’s a problem I’m running into in CurrentCity.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            It was a suggestion – not getting hung up on anything. I get you’re frustrated, but take or leave the advice/tips without the attitude.

    6. Spool of Lies*

      Late reply but I work at a private vocational college (but not for much longer) that has lots of admin programs for specific industries (e.g. medical office, dental office, etc.) and yeah, I think this is, as you say, a lazy way to avoid training new employees.

      It has a lot to do with the polarization of the job market over the last few decades, and the overvaluation and saturation of post-secondary training in the labour market. You now need a diploma or a degree in the field AND 1-3 years of experience in a specific industry for jobs that previously would have provided that industry-specific training to employees who did not need post-secondary credentials to get the job.

      This system works out great for employers, who now get “ready-made” labour fresh off the college assembly line, and the colleges, who rake in the student aid bucks for their overpriced and exceedingly specific programs (why the hell do you need separate programs for working in a chiropractic office and a medical office?), but students/workers are most often in a worse position when they graduate with massive student loan debt and training that may or may not be relevant to the actual jobs they find themselves in IF they are lucky enough to land a job at all.

      As you mentioned, every office/employer is going to have their own systems, technologies, processes, etc. The value of these industry-specific admin programs is wildly exaggerated in order to further exploit students/workers who, in the private college industry in my region/country, are predominantly from vulnerable populations (e.g. recent permanent residents, low-income people, single parents, people with disabilities, etc.).

      Gah. I could go on forever about the absolute injustice of the commercialization of post-secondary education but suffice to say I am so happy to finally be escaping my admin job at a private vocational college.

      If you made it this far, thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

    7. MostCake*

      Apply anyway, especially if it’s a small employer. Last year my former small employer was placing ads to replace my job (I was leaving) and while they would have loved to get a clone of me, with all the particular knowledge and experience gleaned from nearly two decades in the field, exactly one such possible twin unicorn applied, along with about two dozen others with varying degrees of general or similar but not exact experience. They ended up going with someone with general experience and aptitude.

  106. Poached Egg Sundays*

    Is it weird to not be really be close to your ex-bosses and not constantly keep in touch? I have a sparse work history (barely graduated college a few years ago), so I rely on 3 former supervisors for job references. They’re all nearby my home but I’ve only physically visited one of them at the workplace to just chat since she wasn’t busy. Otherwise, I’ve only sent emails or text messages when I need references. I write “hi ex-boss, hope you’re doing well! I was wondering if you’d be available to act as a reference since I’ll be starting my job hunt soon. I’d really appreciate it since I know you’re very busy. Thank you so much!” I was a good working bee and left with my ex-bosses telling me that they’d be more than happy to be a reference but I’m not sure if I’m being selfish by not constantly keeping in touch with them. Keeping in touch via LinkedIn isn’t an option since none of them use it and I don’t use social media either. Thank you!!

    1. Asenath*

      That sounds quite normal – except that I don’t think I’ve ever visited a previous supervisor at work after I left there! Keeping in touch by email, and particularly asking them for a reference (or reminding them you asked before and now expect a request to come in) is typical. I’ve seen one of my former supervisors occasionally since I left and she retired, and that’s only because for a long time we were living in practically the same neighbourhood and our paths crossed quite naturally.

      1. Poached Egg Sundays*

        At my old workplaces, ex-employees would sometimes drop by with snacks so I guessed that it was a normal office thing if you were close to the team? I wasn’t super close to my former teams, which is why I didn’t really make an effort to visit.

        I guess I can’t help but feel like I’m using my ex-bosses for references whenever it works out for me? I think being in more contact would them would make me feel a bit less guilty, but I’m not sure whether I’m overthinking. Like, would they actually decide not to act as a reference if I asked them for the 2nd or 3rd time because I didn’t keep in frequent contact with them over the years? I worry about burning any bridges given my limited work history…

        1. Asenath*

          I think it would take a lot longer that a few years for someone to be unable to remember you and so unwilling to act as your reference! That sort of happened to me once – I wanted to take some academic courses, and the school wanted an academic reference. I’d been away from my studies so long my advisor was a bit hesitant, but when I explained that all they wanted was something saying I could handle third year university courses she agreed and we came up with suitable wording. But by the time that’s likely to happen to you, you’ll probably have other work references. In fact, I had much more recent people who could speak to my abilities at work.

          We’ve had a couple former employees drop in, but they never bring food, and it’s not a frequent occurrence. Because of the way our work is organised, with the managers elsewhere, they don’t meet anyone who would act as a reference anyway.

          1. Poached Egg Sundays*

            Thank you for the advice! If you don’t mind me asking, how often would you keep in touch? And what would you write about? I’m totally lost on how to approach this…

            1. Asenath*

              I don’t think I’d keep in touch just for the sake of keeping in touch. I would instead send a polite enquiry something like you outlined originally when I needed them as a reference. I’d just send a quick enquiry like “Would you be able to act as a reference for me? I’m applying for a teapot designer position with ACME, and would really appreciate it if you could speak to my experiences working for you in the teacup designing business.”

        2. it's me*

          I think being asked for references re: an employee you aren’t in regular and/or casual contact with anymore is an expected part of being a manager. I would not worry.

        3. Fortitude Jones*

          You’re overthinking it. If they said they’d be happy to serve as your references, take them at their word. If you genuinely have a reason to remain in touch with them, fine, keep the lines open. But most people understand that they’ll lose touch with former employees and don’t mind the occasional email asking for a reference later if they were a good employee.

  107. Sabrina Spellman*

    I could use some language to utilize when I find that my new coworkers are not completing the work that falls under their purview and are instead expecting me to. We have mirror positions, just deal with different clients, but it seems that they assume I’ll do all the expense reporting instead of just my own.

    1. animaniactoo*

      “Oh, I’m sorry, my understanding is that we are all responsible for our own expense reporting. Is there a reason you think I’m supposed to be doing it for you?”

      If the answer is any type of “I hoped you would” or “You seem to be so good at it”, you can say “Sorry/thanks, but I prefer not to take that on.”

      If it’s anything else, the reply is “Hmmm, let’s clarify that with [our manager]”. And in whatever meeting with manager (or privately to manager) you say some form of “I would prefer not to be responsible for doing this for other people. I’m good with doing admin work for my own job, but since that job is not an admin job I don’t want to take on admin duties for others in the role as well.” That’s if it gets that far, as it’s fairly likely that they’ll back off as soon as they realize that you’re willing to go to the boss and not just accept their word that it should be dumped on you.

      1. Joielle*

        I’d go a step further and just say “oh, we all do our own expense reporting.” Don’t apologize, just assume they aren’t aware since they’re new. If they push back, you can say something like “I don’t really have time, but let me send you the instructions [or “Sue can explain the system to you” or whatever they should do if they don’t know how]”

  108. PretzelGirl*

    Are there any administrative professionals out there, that are CAP certified? Or something similar? I was thinking about getting my CAP thought the International Association of Administrative professionals. Is it worth it? Is this something that can help advance my career? I really like being an AA, and would love to advance my career to EA at some point.

  109. Parenthetically*

    Just an argh:

    My husband’s 15-person Llama Census department has lost two of four senior Llama Census Officials in the last several months (one planned, one a very sudden departure) and has replaced neither, instead just redistributing their tasks to other team members. Before this happened I comforted myself with the fact that his job may have been far too low-paying and menial, but at least it wasn’t usually grueling. Well…

  110. Ada*

    NEED ADVICE ABOUT US EMPLOYMENT TAXES!

    My husband was just offered a job manning the front desk at a tattoo parlor. They want to pay him cash – no W2. They’re calling it an “apprenticeship.” This can’t be legal, can it?

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Nope. My guess would be that the owner is trying to keep the income reported to the IRS down so they don’t have to pay taxes. Thus the under the table cash payments. Or perhaps there’s a very illegal side to the business.

      If you’re DESPERATE for money to eat, then maybe. But keep job hunting. Otherwise, run.

    3. Parenthetically*

      So the parameters for apprenticeship programs are pretty specifically outlined in federal and state law. You can’t just call employees “apprentices” and then pay them under the table. It’s just not a thing.

      A guy who mans the front desk during certain hours and gets paid for it is an employee. Period.

      1. Ada*

        Thanks, everyone. That’s pretty much what I figured. The “apprenticeship” angle was a new one for me, so I appreciate the sanity check.

      2. Jerk Store*

        Actually, it’s not uncommon to have an actual tattoo apprentice work the front desk, clean, etc. as part of their duties.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Actually, if he were an apprentice, they still couldn’t pay him under the table with no W-2.

    4. GigglyPuff*

      Okay, I have to ask, does your husband also read AAM, cause someone else posted this below, “Ameer Tohamy”…

    5. Bopper*

      Tattoo apprenticeships are basically training so you can get licensed.
      Have him ask them if the goal is to for him to become a tattoo artist.
      If not, he needs to be paid “normally”.
      Also for apprenticeships the people don’t usually get paid.

      1. Parenthetically*

        “for apprenticeships the people don’t usually get paid”

        There are paid and unpaid apprenticeships just as there are paid and unpaid internships.

  111. iwantout*

    I was a little late to the game last week, so I’m going to repeat my question this week to see if I can find a resolution!

    I have decided to leave my job for a number of reasons, but primarily because my boss gives me crippling anxiety and unrealistic expectations, half of my pay is based on factors out of my control (corporate profit-based sharing that is trending down year after year, effectively causing my annual salary to trend downward despite 7 years’ tenure and market rate adjustments of 3% each year), and a lack of upward mobility (the only place to go from here is my boss’ position and she won’t be leaving any time soon).

    My problem is this: I have no references. I have worked for the same company for 7 years (since I graduated college) and they cannot know I’m job searching. All of my coworkers here have been here longer than I, and will probably remain long after I leave, so I have no previous peers that have left the organization that I can request to speak to my work ethic. All of my volunteering is done through my current organization, so asking anyone there to provide a reference would essentially be asking my current coworkers and, again, my company cannot know I’m searching. None of my college professors knew me by name, and my boss has been the same one for the 7 years I have been working here. I am in HR, so I expect that potential employers will care greatly about references, but I literally have NOBODY that can speak to my work. The only references I have are my family and friends and I expect that won’t get me far. Help!

    1. Awkward Interviewee*

      A frustrating situation for sure. A few thoughts: Are any of your coworkers trustworthy enough that they wouldn’t tell your boss you’re job searching? I have used coworkers I knew would be discreet in similar situations. Could you start volunteering elsewhere? It wouldn’t help you right now, but in a few months you could have an additional reference. Did you have any part time jobs on campus or off campus during college you could use for references? Were you involved enough in any student organizations in college such that the faculty/staff sponsor would be able to provide a reference?

      1. Awkward Interviewee*

        Forgot to add: I don’t know what exactly you do at your job, so maybe these aren’t relevant, but consider if you have someone outside your job who could speak to your job performance as it relates to them – I’m thinking like a trusted client, customer, vendor, etc.

    2. Bopper*

      Are you friendly with any peers? I have been asked by my peers to be a reference for them. I am happy to do it and do not mention it to mgt.

    3. Alex*

      I’ve acted as a reference for current peers before while keeping it a secret. Can you trust someone to keep their mouth shut?

      Also, did you have ANY job before this one? Even if it wasn’t a “professional” or related job, someone who can say “yeah this person showed up to work and did a good job at their assigned tasks” can be valuable.

      1. iwantout*

        Unfortunately, since I am HR I feel it is not professional to request that of peers since I technically hold a position above them due to the nature of our hierarchy. Also, there are none I would trust to be discreet. I did work in a grocery store bakery through high school and college, but it was a large chain and nobody I worked with previously is still there/in contact with me.

    4. WellRed*

      At this point, all you can do is apply and interview. Maybe they won’t ask gor references, maybe you can explain all this when they do ask.

    5. Mellow*

      Can you create references, somehow? For example, can find volunteer work, or even a side gig that pays, or take a semester-long class where the people involved do get to know you well enough to be a work reference?

      Because it seems this is a lack-of-a-network issue.

  112. Sollux*

    Warning: this is more of a vent than anything.

    A month ago I got a new job. On the surface, it’s great: excellent benefits, relatively high pay for the work, a good environment, a supportive boss. Unfortunately, I hate what I have to do. It’s software support in a call center and it’s barely technical work – I don’t have admin access to the system and have to escalate 50% of the calls I receive. (I have a degree in IT and several certs, so this is frustrating.) I have to manage the Tier I staff and do 24/7 on-call.

    And the worst thing is that I *knew* most of this going in. Not the barely technical part, but everything else. I just thought I could hack it, but I can’t. I feel like my brain is rotting. And I also feel guilty because it’s a good job! People would love to have it and I’m lucky! But I’m so bored and unhappy. I also haven’t had a vacation in almost two years so I’m burned out on work in general.

    If I had the savings built up, I would quit, but it’s been drained for medical/car issues. So as it is, I’m applying for new jobs and trying to keep a positive attitude…but it’s hard. Any advice on that would be appreciated.

    Okay, vent over. Thanks for reading.

    1. Frankie*

      I’ve worked some seriously terrible jobs in the past, both in the actual tasks and the work culture. I think you have to focus on the needs you have–this job fulfills your need for the time being to get your finances back in order.

      You say you have good benefits, but you haven’t taken a vacation in two years–do you have PTO? Do they make you feel guilty for using it? With 24/7 on call, an actual break might help put this job in a different perspective until you can find something different.

      1. Sollux*

        As of now, I have 6 hours of PTO built up. (Only been there a month.) I don’t think they would make me feel guilty for using it, but I also want to wait until I have a couple days. In my last job, I had to drain my PTO to go to doctor appointments in a city three hours away – I couldn’t flex my schedule to accommodate missing that day – which won’t be an issue with those one since it has weird hours. (I work weekends and have days off during the week.) So that’s why no vacation for two years.

        I keep trying to tell myself that the money and benefits are worth it (main one is that they pay for grad school), but to be honest, I’m not great about keeping the long-term in mind when I’m miserable in the short-term. I need to work on that, but I’m not sure how.

    2. New Normal*

      Frankie’s right – if you have the PTO then the best place to start is with a break! It doesn’t have to be anything costly – at most maybe a cheap airbnb cabin or camping (if that’s your thing) or just stay home! Put phone on silent, log out of email, and do whatever else you need to take a true, honest-to-goodness break. Don’t even work on applications for the first day or two. Visit local museums, organize your sock drawer, do a paint-by-numbers kit, or whatever else and just RELAX. You might end up with a fresh ability to stick it out, you might feel up to doing what’s needed to get to the next level (assuming that’s a possibility) or you might have new energy for that job search but right now what you need is energy and I can’t imagine you’ve got a lot of that right now with that kind of mental burnout!

      1. Sollux*

        Unfortunately I only have 6 hours of PTO at this workplace, so not enough even for a day. I had to jump straight from my last job into this one for financial reasons, so I had no time to take off. I would love a break, though. I really think that would help me deal with this job. In the meantime, I guess I just need to grit my teeth and deal…?

        1. New Normal*

          oooh, somehow I missed that this has only been a month which wouldn’t give you much PTO to work with. Sorry! Can you focus your energies on non-work things (volunteer, new hobby, take a class at the local community college, whatever) and let that keep your brain spinning? My first post-college job was insanely boring for the first 6 months and I only kept my sanity by first hand-writing the better part of a novel (an awful one, but I had fun) in a notebook. Then I started evening classes for fun and did my language homework in another notebook. Having something my mind could work on in the background while I went through the routines was sanity-saving.

          Sorry I don’t have better advice. Keep putting out resumes (it sounds like it will be obvious this job was a stop-gap and so the short tenure should be easily explained) and find ways to engage your brain while you wait it out, I guess?

  113. Nonners*

    Any tips for getting through a really demoralizing time at work? We’re about to move into a new office (after a rough transition being forced out of our own office due to construction work on a really weird schedule) and half of “us” are getting offices, but half are essentially in a bullpen now with cubicles. They’re not tiny, but they’re not that big, like not the cubicle setups that essentially form an office around you–they’re wide stations. There’s a couple of instances where who gets an office seems pretty inequitable. I personally am going to have a lot of trouble focusing and I’ll never have a door I can close when it gets too loud.

    On top of that, they’ve changed our jobs to a related one, but we haven’t had a formal title change, and there’s no budget for any official training, and so the burden is on us to both promote ourselves in this new work and figure out how to do it well. When I and other team members attempt to formalize our self-training and our standards there’s a team member who pushes back pretty hard (they want to do things their own way and don’t want to have to adhere to structure), and it’s starting to feel like doing the work is pointless.

    There are some really good things about this job–the actual field is a really great one–but it just feels rough right now. Theoretically we are trained in change management but all this transition has not gone down in the most optimal, transparent way, and we’re all feeling the effects of it. Not sure what I can do except ride it out.

  114. Argye*

    Final (?) update on the academic job that wanted me to move 800 miles in 2 weeks for substandard pay. I turned it down. Got multiple emails from everyone asking me to reconsider. The Provost called me several times, asking to set up a phone call, saying that they really, really wanted me to join the college. I said, OK, fine, Monday at 10 am, so I can finish grading my summer class, as I was inundated with papers and final exams. Got a message at 11 am that day – he got called into a meeting, could we reschedule? I said, sure! After 3 pm would work. I got a phone call at 7:30pm that day, that I missed because I was cooking dinner. He didn’t leave a voice mail.

    Since then…. crickets.

    Weird.

    I have signed contracts to adjunct for Fall semester, and applications in to a government agency to start in January. I’m also applying to other things – some academic, some not. I’m not much regretting this decision, though I am baffled by their response. Why say they really, really want me and then ghost me? Strange, but it reinforces that I probably made the right decision.

    1. Overeducated*

      I’m sorry, this all sounds so disappointing and frustrating. As someone who also turned down an academic job a few years ago (also because of the moving timeline with a deferred start date rejected), I can tell you that since you sound open to pursuing multiple possibilities, you WILL find something else that doesn’t have those same red flags.

      Also, you may see this job not being filled until January or next year anyway, which is both frustrating and satisfying.

    2. LibbyG*

      I imagine the provost going through their day, imagining how they might convince you to accept, and then realizing by 7:30 that they really just had nothing. Still weird. Like, leave a voice mail, at least to reiterate their eagerness and to wish you well.

      1. NGA*

        Right, or hustling through various bureaucracies to try to get additional pay or some other benefit approved, and hitting dead ends.

  115. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Do you have hard to fill spots that seem to be absolutely impossible to fill? How do you keep your spirits up and take it in stride?

    Ours is an assistant position. It’s not dirty or dangerous but it can lack stimulation or creativity for some folks so that’s a bummer. There’s room to grow if you want to stick it out for awhile and learn the rest of the processes, which we make clear in our job placements and interviews. It’s a pull for people trying to get out of retail or service industry grinds, which works just fine by us.

    The last hire was super excited to start and listened happily while I told him about the benefits package during orientation, saying how it was awesome and he had never had anything like PTO or paid holidays before or even a set schedule. I thought he was going to fit right in, everyone liked him and he seemed happy, buzzing around getting the hang of things but then ghosted after a few days =( We didn’t take it personally but it still gives us that deflated feeling of “Now we start over” more than anything. He had a spotty job history but given the stories we have around here and my friend’s personal experience, I know that it can be due to issues with toxic employers in the past and I have no problem believing that they exist, especially coming from service/retail industry jobs!

    So yeah, any personal pep talks or things you tell yourself when you have to go back to square one for the third time in a few months?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Well, you need to tighten-up your hiring process. Spotty job history and you just assumed that it was due to toxic employers? Nope. You should have dug deeper there. Don’t assume.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I can’t be choosy about this kind of thing and have to assume the best, since we’re not getting hundreds of applicants. We’re getting a dozen and they’re all one flag or another. Spotty job history or long gaps of “I was on the road with my band for awhile” of things.

        It’s also a job that doesn’t even require a high school diploma. You just need to be able to be able to stand, lift and not be afraid to use a saw now and again.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I should clarify that for our skilled positions, we would always be in depth and dig around. Spotty job histories and unexplained gaps would never get in the door.

    2. Overeducated*

      Yup, we have one type of position like that with 5 different occupants in the last year or so – it’s a position that’s mainly administrative in nature, but has previously been filled by people with subject matter backgrounds (1-2 at a time), and they’ve quit due to being both overwhelmed and frustrated by the work itself. We’re trying to fill it again right now, this time with three people so the workload won’t be as overwhelming, and this time the title and description were changed so it is more accurate and does not read like a subject matter focused position.

      I don’t have a lot of feelings about it, per se, since I’m not the person in charge of hiring, but it is tough to have to start covering the work from scratch every few months. Fingers crossed that this time we get people who understand what the job is before they take it, and stay in it a while; I hope you find someone who is willing to take your position for exactly what it is as well.

    3. self employed*

      How much do you pay? If it’s not market rate, I find this kind of thing is more common.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’s slightly above market rate and we have full benefits, that was my first thought! I looked at comparable postings and we’re at the top of what we offer to start.

        So I don’t think it’s us, I do think it’s a lack of motivated laborers more than anything. Which is thanks to a 2.6% unemployment rate in the region.

    4. EDinTX*

      We have the same! I hire for direct care positions. We are limited as to what pay and financial rewards we can offer (our budget is based on Medicaid reimbursement rates, which are dismal for the work we do). We are constantly being ghosted by applicants, by people on their first day or after their first week. It’s a matter of people taking the job, then finding something that pays more or has better benefits and dropping us. Even with our administrative and management positions. I always tell myself it’s not personal and people are just doing what they have to do for themselves and their families. I also remind myself that it’s better for this to happen early in their tenure before we have invested too much or come to rely on people to much.

    5. Not me... the other guy*

      I’ve got one like that… it was a 2 person team:

      6 months ago Bob and Fergus
      Bob resigns because he’s moving to a different state
      Wakeen (who worked on my current team) replaces Bob
      Team is now Wakeen and Fergus
      5 months ago, the team is moved under my group
      Fergus moves into totally unrelated team
      Jane is hired to manage this team and another
      Now team is Jane and Wakeen
      Current Status
      Have not been able to find candidates to fill Fergus’ vacancy.
      Wakeen will be going on leave for several weeks
      Jane hasn’t been able to learn second team or get involved with them yet due to learning 1st team’s work and helping

      So, I’ve basically inherited a team that has now had 100% turnover and will lose one of the individuals for several weeks. I just had a phone interview with someone recommended by our CEO. Luckily he sounds like a good candidate with the skills I need, because we’ve been told to hire him. Hell, with his skills and how he came across in my phone interview with him. I damn near hired him on the spot. Final interviews will happen on Monday. please oh please work out.

      So yeah… right there with you.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      If it’s super entry-level could you fill through some type of college program and/or state retraining program?
      We used to get “interns” from a local university, but they were really co-ops and they were with us for six months, so had more time to fit in. They were paid $15/hour (no benefits) and this was part of their grade, so were motivated and generally didn’t flake.

      The only downside is having to train someone new that often, but if it’s entry-level you may be able to make the revolving door work for you. One of my coworkers managed to have the changeover happen where the outgoing coop trained the new one for a week.

  116. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Question: How do I raise this stuff, and with whom, that doesn’t get me in hot water?

    Info: I did a project w/a new manager, and she’s both nice and terrible at the same time. Doesn’t listen (when she’s clearly over her head) and looks like an idiot as a result, didn’t do required project stuff timely or at all so I had to, etc. Generally, a mess. I’d prefer not to work with her again because she simply isn’t interested in what I do, so avoids/delays/ignores it. Which really isn’t ok. I don’t really have that option unfortunately.

    Due to previous conversations I’ve had with her, I will not talk to her about any of this without someone in management who can overrule her present. I don’t trust her, and she may be the type to try to tear down people she doesn’t like (she’s new, can’t tell yet, but it’s leaning that way). There is another person in management who I would be ok talking to, but he doesn’t have authority over her. The big boss who does have authority it’s 50/50, I’m not sure if he’d actually do anything. And it’s a small team, so if she went off on a snit or something, everyone would get it.

    So, how do I proceed? Do I proceed?

    1. Bopper*

      One time I had work with a person who was technically okay at the job, but 1) Was always a step behind 2) Didn’t know what to prioritize. I was paired with her on a feature, and after a couple of times, I told my boss that I would prefer not to be paired with her all the time (I would take my turn, just not every time).

      So maybe you could say “is it possible in the future for me not to do my projects with Manager Z? It was difficult to communicate with her and She does not prioritize the spouts on teapots and I don’t feel my work is valued.”

  117. Overeducated*

    Woohoo! Put out the fires! The last three days have been a sprint at work. I was gone for a few months on assignment to another office, got back and everything seemed to be in working order with some expected backlogs to catch up on…but then I dug under the rocks this week and happened to find a couple things that were not in such good shape. There were two people who were supposed to cover them while I was gone, in one case I think the person just didn’t prioritize it within their increased workload and in the other neither of them actually understood it, so I don’t blame them for that – but in both cases I should NOT have found out these things weren’t done by digging into the files myself instead of from my coworkers, a month ago, when I asked where we were with them.

    For more than three months I guess half a week of breakneck pace work to deal with the most urgent stuff isn’t so bad, but it does make me a bit nervous about what I’m going to come back to after maternity leave in the winter….

  118. LittleLove*

    The horrible editor who drove my husband and I away from our jobs has now lost his job. We were sort of offered our old jobs back but husband is officially retired and I have another job so we said no. But we did say we might sign up as stringers. (Newspaper speak for part-timers who cover events.) It was SO NICE to be able to walk into our old offices and not feel sick to our stomaches just being there. It took several years but good won out. Yay!

  119. ShipLeigh*

    I’ve got a candidate on my hands that I really like and want to move forward. She seems to be everything I’d like to see for this role. I always ask around my peers for their opinions on candidates that I don’t directly know and haven’t been steered wrong in the past with their feedback. When I asked around about this candidate, I was told that she had filed lawsuits against three out of four of her former employers. My contact who clued me in on this was even deposed for one and would not comment further. Our industry (freight/logistics) has traditionally been male-dominated, so if she has faced harassment/discrimination to the point where a suit was possible, shame on them and good for her. My personal feelings are clear: I’m in her corner for fighting back on this garbage that still lurks in this industry. Professionally, I’m torn on this candidate. If there is any legal issue if she is hired here and I was silent about what I’ve learned from my peers, that won’t look good for me.

    Thoughts?

    1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      What are the lawsuits for? I would be very leery of this.

      I worked with a guy who seemed nice and competent, but he seemed to not really understand the nature of our job (i.e. you will be cold and wet at times, and yes you will be expected to work in the snow unless it’s really bad) and had filed formal complaints at every employer he’d had. I found out about this through people I met on other jobs. He seemed good on paper, I’m sure, and was a likeable enough guy but if I were ever hiring I wouldn’t pick him.

    2. Carquals 153 Niner 2*

      From https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/retaliation.cfm. Perhaps a company lawyer can assist in evaluating this information as it pertains to the candidate?

      The EEO laws prohibit punishing job applicants or employees for asserting their rights to be free from employment discrimination including harassment. Asserting these EEO rights is called “protected activity,” and it can take many forms. For example, it is unlawful to retaliate against applicants or employees for:

      filing or being a witness in an EEO charge, complaint, investigation, or lawsuit
      communicating with a supervisor or manager about employment discrimination, including harassment
      answering questions during an employer investigation of alleged harassment
      refusing to follow orders that would result in discrimination
      resisting sexual advances, or intervening to protect others
      requesting accommodation of a disability or for a religious practice
      asking managers or co-workers about salary information to uncover potentially discriminatory wages.

      1. Artemesia*

        A lawsuit I wouldn’t be too worried — 3 out of 4 — yeah I’d be worried. I have only known one litigious employee well and she in fact was a pain to work with and quick on the trigger to escalate ordinary workplace issues into ‘federal cases.’

    4. Mediamaven*

      Literally I would absolutely not move forward with this candidate. Full stop. Three times? No way.

    5. Gumby*

      I’d look for more info.

      Is it probable she experienced discrimination? Absolutely, yes.
      All three times? This starts to look a little fishier.
      Is it still possible? Of course. But it also starts to look like someone who is quick to sue. It’s not necessarily disqualifying, but it is a sign that you need to know more.

      Was it a suit that the EEOC took up? Since anyone can sue for basically any reason, and sometimes organizations will pay a settlement just to get the case to go away, it’s reassuring to me if it is a case the EEOC took up rather than issuing a Right to Sue. I may be off in my understanding of how the whole Right to Sue thing works, but I feel like after the EEOC says “we don’t see anything illegal here” a follow on lawsuit *could* be a sign that an employee is overly litigious. Point being, I’d be willing to push harder for the candidate if the EEOC took up the case.

  120. CrazyLikeAFox*

    Ideas, please:
    Our nonprofit agency has an annual training, traditionally held at the beginning of summer. Format is typically work-related workshops in the morning, with team-building in the afternoon. We have roughly 100 employees at various job sites. For many, this is the only time they see coworkers from other sites.
    What would be a good activity for team building? Minute to win it is popular, but powers that be opted against it this past year. They decided to have a mini-carnival and a magician, which were both very polarizing.
    Suggestions of using budget for gift cards for all staff members or just giving PTO have been declined as not encouraging team building.
    We are not allowed alcohol at work events and staff ages/abilities vary. Budget is also limited.
    Suggestions for team-building next year?

    1. House Tyrell*

      I always like organizing and playing a human bingo game. Make bingo cards with different facts on them (“Has traveled out of the country,” “Worked at Company for 5 years,” etc) that mix fun and work topics and have people go around the room meeting people and signing their names in the boxes of their colleague’s bingo cards. You can do multiple rounds- one line, X, blackout, etc and give away gift cards for the winners. It’s a great to get to know your coworkers and find things you have in common or learn an interesting fact about them, etc. In my experience, generally people will get to talking about interesting trips they took or their career path, etc!

      3. Moray*

        It’s especially good if you email everyone in advance to ask them to contribute an unexpected fact about themselves. They feel more invested, and they get to share something they’re proud of–“why yes, I can beat a rubix cube in under a minute.”

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      What is the purpose of the team-building? Like: do you want people to get to know each other better? Feel more connected to the wider mission of the organization (rather than just their specific work)? etc.

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      What about having a few activity stations and letting people choose for themselves.

      We did a scavenger hunt/app thing that was fun (it was called Goose Chase; you can google).

      What about having a few activity stations and letting people choose? An art activity (like those paint & sip deals, without the sipping)? A puzzle? A blackjack table with fake money, prizes, and a dealer who totally cheats in favor of the participants is fun. Lego table? Whatever kinds of things make it easy to go from group to group and be social, or find something you really love and do that and not have to feel super social. Try to include something that’s sort of competitive and something that’s pretty cooperative.

  121. Kimmy Schmidt*

    I’m teaching an internal workshop on customer service next week.

    Anyone have any tips, activities, or ideas on how to teach other people good customer service skills?

    1. Artemesia*

      I don’t think there is any way to teach soft skills except by doing them. So that means some kind of practice, role plays and some good examples to model on. And it is important that the role plays not get too high comedy i.e. people really do need to practice realistic ways to defuse anger, respond to service failure, etc etc.

  123. Llama Analyst*

    I am part of an 80-person department, of which about 10 of us are llama analysts. We’re going through a leadership change and reorg, and as part of that it has been announced that the llama analyst position is going away. We will be keeping our responsibilities but in slightly different configurations and with different titles, which are TBD. One of the reasons given for this is that “llama analyst” is a company-specific term that no one understands. (This is not in any way the case, it’s a common title for people in our role.) Well, are we allowed to write down our own job descriptions and come up with better titles? No, definitely not, our titles will be announced to us at some indeterminate point in the future.

    So it was a fun irony to come out of an hour-long meeting having been told that llama analyst isn’t really a thing (it is), and even if it were it’s not a description of my job (it is), and sit down at my computer to find an email from a recruiter looking for a Senior Llama Analyst. If I weren’t about to go out on maternity leave I’d be extremely tempted, just because this whole thing is so dumb.

    1. Product Person*

      In your place, I’d forward the email to my boss or whoever is insisting the title doesn’t exist, with a polite note in the lines “I’m confused as to why we’re being told our job titles don’t exist! Not that I’m interested or will follow up with the recruiter, but this makes it evident that our title exists and is compatible with our duties”.

  124. not a little girl!*

    What is a good way to explain why you were fired in an interview? Here is the situation: I worked in a call center for an online school. I have a very young sounding voice (like 12 years-old sounding). Often times I would get people calling in who would not take me seriously or not believe what I was telling them was the truth. This would cause me to feel flustered and overwhelmed. People would often try and walk over me thinking that they could bully me or that I was stupid. What would happen would be that my tone would change to be more firm, which came across as being rude and that I was yelling to the customers. I got written up several times over my tone, even though I was trying to work on the issue. This was only a problem because I was working in a call center. I have had several in-person customer service roles and never had this problem.

    I am currently looking for work outside of call center work. However, when I get interviews I stumble over how to answer why I left my last job. Officially, I was let go because of performance. Does anyone have any suggestions on ways to explain why I was let go.

    1. Ada*

      How about something like “I found that call center work wasn’t a good fit for me, so now I’m looking for work more in line with my strengths, such as…”? Then list any strengths you have that would benefit you in the role you’re applying for and how they would play into the job.

      1. Alianora*

        If I were interviewing someone who said that, I would want to probe further into why call center work wasn’t a good fit, and if I knew the person was let go, I would want to know the specific reason. I think you’re better off being upfront that you had some issues moderating your tone of voice, and saying that you’ve been working on staying calm. And that you’ve found success with in-person customer service roles. Don’t make excuses about the other people being rude or misinterpreting you. Even though that did happen, it’s better to focus on your own actions.

    2. Not me... the other guy*

      I know someone with the same type of voice. She’s been told many times when she’s called somewhere to have her parents call instead.

      I wouldn’t necessarily sugar coat this one. I would let them know that your voice wasn’t compatible with phone work, and your interactions with the customers were strained because of that (from customers not taking you seriously to not believing what you told them) as you tried different tactics to alleviate the problem, such as the firmer tone that was perceived as rude. Also add that that you can understand where they were coming from as it’s hard to picture a competent adult giving someone bad news/saying no/ etc when the voice doesn’t match what they are expecting. Then bring up the fact that this hasn’t been a problem with face to face customer service and give some examples of situations where you diffused situations or established yourself as the problem solver.

      Basically, it sounds like it was the proverbial ‘bad fit’ from everyone’s perspective. Due to no fault of your own, you weren’t able to match customer expectations, you were unable to provide the good service you wanted which cause frustration on your part, and your supervisors were trying to help, but obviously can’t change your voice.

      So matter of fact is how I would talk about this. Not blaming nor not taking responsibility.

      Good luck, that’s crappy how this worked for you.

      1. Not me... the other guy*

        Wow.. that got wordy. You get the jist of what I was trying to say… I wouldn’t spend this much time on it though!

  125. Justme, The OG*

    AAM commentariat, I know we have talked about out of office messages before. How do you all feel about OOOs that let people emailing you know that your schedule is different for the week (mornings only rather than 8-5) so you may take longer to respond to emails? My job is such that I am not expected to check emails when I am not working (though I often do, and respond to the very important ones).

    2. Daniela*

      I love having that info. We have some remote team members that work flexible schedules, and it’s helpful to know if I can expect a reply that day, or have to wait until the next morning.

    3. Alianora*

      Depends on what inquiries you typically get. If they’re not urgent and you’ll reply within 24 hours or so, I would personally rather not receive a ton of ooo messages. If they are urgent requests or it’ll take longer than a day for you to reply, then yes that would be useful.

  126. Eponymous*

    I need advice on how to handle a supervisor who appears that he will not address an ongoing issue.

    At my company there are field personnel that do the work. They document their work with written notes, diagrams, and photos. There are office personnel (like me) that use those notes, diagrams, and photos to write reports.

    My supervisor has a client that hires us to do a lot of small projects. My supervisor likes to use a particular field person to do this work and me to write the reports. However, the field person does not document his work very well. He’ll write a few sentences, make a quick sketch, and take a handful of photos. It is difficult for me to write reports without sufficient information. I usually end up cross-referencing the notes, diagrams, and photos with Street View and various mapping programs to figure out what happened. I feel like I should be on CSI with all of the detective and analytical work I do. For some projects my supervisor and I have had to email and call the field person repeatedly to get all of the information we need to write the reports. Unfortunately the information we need is details like exact measurements, dimensions, quantities, etc., which the field person doesn’t remember several weeks after the work was completed, which is why he’s supposed to write them down in his notes.

    I have told my supervisor several times that it is difficult to write these reports without documentation. I told him explicitly today that I would like to see this field person improve his documentation because the most recent batch of reports was more difficult than usual. I suggested a particular piece of technology that would help in an area where he seems to have a lot of difficulty. My supervisor’s response was that the field person has been doing his job for a while and is clearly set in his ways. My supervisor then sat down with me to go over the last report, which I fully admit to having done a terrible job on because I was fed up because I couldn’t find any of the relevant information in the documentation (which consisted of three sentences, none of which addressed the actual work, and a dozen photos which omitted two of the most important aspects of the work).

    I’m not sure how else to address this with my supervisor, because he clearly knows that the lack of documentation is an issue but so far doesn’t appear to have done anything about it. I do work closely with two members of my department’s training team; the training team knows that poor documentation is an ongoing issue for the department in general, and they’re aware that certain staff are worse than others. However, I’ve been mildly reprimanded before for going over my supervisor’s head about something (except it was a miscommunication and I hadn’t) so I’m hesitant to go straight to the training team about this. Plus, the training team is supposed to bring up issues with supervisors who are then supposed to discuss it with their staff, and I don’t believe that the field person’s supervisor has been helpful in the past.

    Any suggestions on how else I could get this resolved?

    1. Kathenus*

      Two suggestions. First, stop backing up their work. Write your report ONLY with what they gave you. Then it’s supervisor’s problem to deal with an incomplete report. As long as you keep doing the extra leg work to find out the details they left out, there’s little motivation for your supervisor to see it as a problem.

      Second, can their be a checklist of what’s required during these field visits that has to be checked off and turned in with the documentation? This way the field person can’t say they didn’t know something was needed, they’ll either have to include everything on the checklist, check off something they didn’t do, or send back the checklist unfinished – in the latter two cases you then have documentation.

      1. Eponymous*

        >First, stop backing up their work.

        I’ve tried this. In fact it came up today with the report that I did a cruddy job on. My supervisor asked why I didn’t include X, Y, and Z and I said that I couldn’t because that information wasn’t included in the documentation. He opted to just have the report gloss over those topics and hope that the client doesn’t ask for those particular details. It’s a bad solution but honestly there’s no way those particular details can be recovered. Unfortunately if I choose not to do any detective work to write the reports, my supervisor would receive empty reports which he has previously indicated isn’t acceptable.

        >Second, can their be a checklist of what’s required during these field visits that has to be checked off and turned in with the documentation?

        I’ve been suggesting this, not just for this particular field person but for the department in general, for years. Our projects are highly variable so it’s difficult to even determine which info is necessary/basic for all projects.
        Supervisors are supposed to review the field documentation as soon as possible once the work is complete, but few do. I’ve offered to do this follow-up check for my supervisor but I usually don’t find out about these projects until the work is done and I’m assigned the report.

        I’ve emailed a senior-level person adjacent to the training team for advice on working with both the field person *and* my supervisor, because they’ve dealt with similar situations before and may have some ideas.

        1. Kathenus*

          To the first part of your response:
          >First, stop backing up their work.

          I’ve tried this. In fact it came up today with the report that I did a cruddy job on. My supervisor asked why I didn’t include X, Y, and Z and I said that I couldn’t because that information wasn’t included in the documentation. He opted to just have the report gloss over those topics and hope that the client doesn’t ask for those particular details. It’s a bad solution but honestly there’s no way those particular details can be recovered. Unfortunately if I choose not to do any detective work to write the reports, my supervisor would receive empty reports which he has previously indicated isn’t acceptable.

          TBH I think this shows that this strategy might help. If your supervisor continually gets ’empty reports’, then he might take action to require better documentation. My only additional suggestion would be to be very explicit if he asks why it wasn’t included – ‘it’s because (insert field person’s name here) didn’t give it to me, I included everything that was turned in to me in the report’. Rinse and repeat, every time, so that it becomes a problem that the supervisor deals with. Good luck.

        2. Lilith*

          Can the original documentor use audio instead? Maybe he doesn’t trust his spelling or has stream of consciousness thought& knows you can put the sentences and pictures together for the final product.

      2. Mellow*

        “My supervisor asked why I didn’t include X, Y, and Z and I said that I couldn’t because that information wasn’t included in the documentation. He opted to just have the report gloss over those topics and hope that the client doesn’t ask for those particular details.”

        I hope the client DOES ask for those details. It would shine a bright light on the real problem here: your boss refuses to address your co-worker’s insubordinance and uses you as cover BECAUSE HE KNOWS YOU WILL COMPLY. It’s a whole lot easier to manage someone who responds to instructions (you) than someone who refuses to.

        And that’s why I write that I hope the client asks for details: because then your supervisor will HAVE TO grow a spine.

        “Unfortunately if I choose not to do any detective work to write the reports, my supervisor would receive empty reports which he has previously indicated isn’t acceptable.”

        Yes, but you aren’t the genesis for that emptiness. I’d continue doing your part only and letting the situation escalate elsewhere if necessary. Your co-worker is getting away with murder and somehow that needs to be known.

    2. Undine*

      Say, it’s going to take me x more hours to do this report — what do you want me to take off my plate?

  127. Boba tea*

    Anyone notice the lack of intern-related posts this summer? I binge read all of the intern stories when I first discovered AAM and now that im an intern myself, I cant wait for more lol but August is coming and if I dont remember wrong, we didnt have any intern stories this summer right? Or was there 1-2 of them? Anyway pls share your intern stories. Mine has been okay, just some dress code problem like pink heels, leather shorts etc and someone that doesnt like her office lol.

    2. Not me... the other guy*

      Ours have been great lately… so no stories other than … Came in on time, dressed appropriately, did a good job on their projects and busy work, got on well with the team.

    3. Sam Foster*

      Vibe I’m getting from my fellow corporate drones is that internship programs were curtailed this year for budget reasons.

      My theory is that all the talk of a robust economy is a smokescreen and companies are very, very afraid of what’s going to happen so they’re being even more cautious than usual with spending.

  128. Amethyst*

    Here’s a situation I was put in yesterday. Cubicle Mate (CM) complained to Boss that I was taking up her desk space. (I wasn’t. I was using a very small part, & only because of the way papers fell as I rapidly flipped through them as I worked. I was using about 2″ of the part that butts up against my part of the desk, & not even the entire portion.) Boss told Supervisor, who told me. I had to try rearranging my desk with the limited cord lengths I have connecting everything to accommodate CM.

    All told, it disrupted me three separate times in the space between 6:45 (when I started) & noon. The two additional disruptions was because CM continued to complain I was taking up her desk space–the last complaint resulting in Supervisor rolling her eyes massively when she saw where my work sat: just over the 1/4″ gap separating our two desks. In the end, an additional hole had to be drilled into my desk to accommodate the ridiculously short wires my equipment was given, which took 45 minutes due to a series of events, & then I had to rearrange my desk, which took up the rest of the time as it included cleaning. Half my working day was lost to this nonsense.

    In the midst of all this, CM proceeded to use quite a bit of my own desk space to accommodate her own papers. Which she’s literally never done in the entire month I’ve been there so far. Wearing a smug smile as she worked. Additionally, during this whole thing, CM was making sympathetic noises about how hard the constant readjusting & interruptions must be for me & being as sweet as pie. She never once said, “Hey, I have a thing about my desk being just mine, so do you mind keeping your work on your side?” to me. Not once.

    Supervisor then told me via a whispered conversation that CM had also complained to Boss that my chair was making too much noise when I got up, sat down, & shifted position in it. Boss drew the line there & said she refused to make me switch chairs just because CM is nitpicking EVERY LITTLE THING I’m doing–or not doing, as the case may be, & Grandbosses are making noises about forcing retirement on her as she’s 67 & her constant complaining is becoming disruptive to the office. Even they’re sick of hearing about her complaints from Boss.

    I’m still pretty steamed over this. What could I have done when it started getting out of hand so I can keep it in mind for future reference should it happen again with someone else?

    1. Amethystmoon*

      My workplace has half-partitions for some of our work areas, that aren’t an entire cubicle but just are on the desk space. Maybe you could ask if something like that could be put in? They just added them last year. I wish I’d had them in my old job, it would have prevented one of the more annoying managers from literally sitting on my desk to hover over me.

      1. valentine*

        If you can’t move your desk further away*, get a large posterboard to put between them and tape it to your desk so it can’t touch hers. In the meantime, shove her stuff out of your space. If called on it, say you were being respectful because, surely, she wouldn’t want her things in your area any more than she wanted yours in hers.

        *This could backfire: If her papers fall between the desks, there will be a whole production where they hire movers to move your desk, a search and rescue team to pick up her papers, a courier to return them, and then a different team of movers to put your desk back.

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’d be very tempted to start squeaking my chair as much as possible. Ugh.

    3. New Normal*

      On the good side it sounds like you have great support from above so as long as you’re not deliberately provoking her it sounds like it’s just a waiting game where you’ll come out looking fine (if rather harassed.) Evil Normal has a long list of ideas on how to hasten that retirement (take up humming while working, eat carrots at your desk, shift more than necessary in your chair due to a ‘stiff back,’ quickly and obviously cover up a random notebook or close a tab on your computer as soon as she walks by) but Evil Normal is not good at paying bills or keeping jobs which is why I only let her suggest ideas, not act on them.

      More realistically it sounds like your best bet is to ignore her as much as possible and avoid engaging when you can and, when you can’t, be as emotional-less as possible when she does complain or tries to ‘get back’ (like putting her papers on your desk). I’ve heard it called ‘grey rocking’ as in you want to be as boring and as bland as a plain grey rock is to non-geologists. And remind yourself that this is temporary.

    4. EddieSherbert*

      Ummm build a barrier wall between your desk with binders? Yikes.

      That’s frustrating and also stupid that your boss is letting CM come to her with these dumb issues… and actually addressing them? A good boss would tell her she needs to talk to you about your paper being 1″ on her desk and explain that there is literally no reason to be bringing this stuff to her.

      Obviously, you don’t actually want to talk about this stuff with CM. But still. A good manager wouldn’t even consider making this “a thing.”

      Hopefully she retires soon… like Monday would be good.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      Something is wrong with CM. It’s not you.
      You could have asked for a meeting with the boss, CM and you to discuss her issues. That would have informed her that you know she’s complaining about you. However, with someone who is unreasonable, there might be very little you could have actually done.
      Her desk should have been modified, not yours. Ask her to keep her papers on her own desk in a professional tone. With the grand-bosses wanting her gone, you have support for dealing with her assertively. If she escalates her behavior, ask to be moved away from her. If you come across another CM in the future, direct, businesslike communication is best, if that’s possible. If not, putting as much space as possible between you and a CM is a good strategy.
      Sorry you’re dealing with this. I hope CM retires soon.

    6. Gumby*

      My response to the “her hand is on my side of the car” complaints from my 3 – 6 year old nieces and nephews was to either make them run laps at the next rest stop (which they liked), make everyone play the quiet game (which *I* loved), or make both the complainer and the complainee literally sit on their hands for the next 2 minutes. I have nothing for adults.

    7. Mellow*

      There is nothing for you to do, as she will find something to complain about. Just do you and in the meantime watch with amusement as she shrieks herself into oblivion.

  129. Amethystmoon*

    They just announced our cafeteria is being remodeled to be more like corporate. It’s essentially being turned into a mini-grocery store and it will be credit only. Maybe it’s just me, but isn’t credit only classist? If you don’t pay your employees enough that they don’t have to struggle some weeks to get by, and not everyone wants a credit card to be in debt forever, that’s not great. Especially those of us who have student loans we’re paying off, we shouldn’t have to be charging up credit cards just to buy lunch. And there are weeks my bank account is low, so using the ATM card isn’t always an option. So yeah…guess I’ll be brown-bagging it even more than I have been. I was allowing myself one day a week for a cafeteria meal, but there are some weeks for me that won’t be doable, like on a rent week.

    Pushing back as a group isn’t an option. Apparently everyone else here is independently wealthy or they don’t care and don’t have student loans to pay off, and it’s a giant corporation to boot.

    1. fposte*

      I agree with you that credit only would be pretty horrible, but it sounds like they take ATM and debit cards, so I don’t think that’s so bad. Yes, some people prefer handling cash, but I don’t think this cuts off actual access in most places. I’m not quite following why this means you can’t get lunch there as much as you used to–did you used to be able to charge lunches on an account there, maybe? Or do you do your accounting in cash and don’t want to take out less cash?

      1. Amethystmoon*

        For quite a while, my credit rating wasn’t that good, so I didn’t have credit cards to use. I now have one again, but am leery about using it. I have been giving myself a $20 allowance per week for incidentals like lunch, but now that becomes difficult. Also again, some weeks have more bills than others, and I don’t want to go under on my bank account. We don’t have a pre-loaded card.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, so you’re doing something like the envelope system and that $20 is all in cash? Would you be okay with doing it $15 in cash and $5 as part of your bank account instead?

          Because your total spending in a week isn’t changing–whether you’re taking out $20 in cash each week and spending $5 for lunch out of it or taking $15 in cash and leaving $5 in the bank account to buy it on the debit, it’s the same amount of money.

          Now if you’re talking about a psychological spending curb that’s working for you and whose balance this disrupts, I get it–that’s definitely frustrating, and psychology of what does work matters much more than what should word. But if it’s psychologically neutral for you, this should be something you can plan for without spending more money.

          1. Amethystmoon*

            That’s true. It’s just far easier to overspend when it’s in electronic format.

            1. fposte*

              No disagreements there, and I understand how annoying it is when a system that was working for you is now displeasingly broken.

              1. valentine*

                Be sure they’re not charging you the card transaction fee. I’m not sure any card would work for you because there will be errors and either you won’t find out within 24 hours or people will take longer than that to correct them, possibly devastating your finances.

                Maybe you can trade this treat in for something of similar cost elsewhere or for dessert or something to go with your brought lunch.

    2. MatKnifeNinja*

      There is a medical office/23 hour ER by me that is cashless.

      The employees are offered a card they can preload, if you chose not to use Debit/Credit. The card can only be used in the cafeteria of that building.

      Hope they’ll do something like that for you.

    3. Justme, The OG*

      Yes. I hate that places are going credit-only (even though I rarely ever use cash for anything) because it’s really classist. And I deal with cultures where people, younger people especially, do not have bank accounts.

      1. fposte*

        I thought about that, but so many employers have mandatory direct deposit now that the cafeteria is, comparatively, small potatoes. Pun intended in retrospect only.

    4. Mediamaven*

      It’s unfortunately the direction of a lot of retail and it’s not classist, it simply puts the onus on you to pay off the balance every month and manage it. It doesn’t technically cost more to use a credit card, it just requires a heightened level of responsibility.

      1. fposte*

        It requires people to be able to get a credit card in the first place, which is a very class-skewed ability, and the credit cards available for people barely able to get them can indeed cost money or require the ability to put down money for a secured credit card.

        1. Mediamaven*

          But you said yourself that includes debit cards, which everyone should have. It sounds like its not a mandatory thing to eat in the cafeteria. Typically that’s a perk. So if someone doesn’t have either of those things they may have to have alternatives for lunch.

          1. fposte*

            Sorry, I think I overread you and thought you were talking about credit cards generally. I think there’s still some classism in the cafeteria setup but the classist ship on banking sailed a while ago.

          2. Can't Sit Still*

            More people are unbanked in the US than you might think, for a variety of reasons. Not everyone can get a debit card. It’s not something people talk about because it’s humiliating.

            1. ...*

              Genuine no-snark question. What reason could someone have for preventing them from getting an account with a debit card? Aside from being an illegal immigrant of course.

              1. Mellow*

                No snark? Hard to believe, considering your unnecessary jab at undocumented people.

                Meanwhile, Google “bank account no debit card.” Takes all of two seconds to find out why a bank might not issue a debit card

    5. Not me... the other guy*

      I think you’re reading too much into the ‘credit’ only. As others have said, that will include debit as well.

      I can understand if you’re not keen on debit for budgeting reasons, have you maybe considered a refillable card? There are usually extra fees involved, but this would be a close approximation to the envelope/cash system. You could figure out what your budget would be in cash for the month and load that onto a card. That way you don’t spend your rent money on cheetos and lattes (I may have developed a Cheez It problem at one time and this could have been a real concern for me)

    6. ...*

      It’s frustrating that it doesn’t work for you but if they take debit that would be the same as cash. So if you couldn’t afford it on an ATM card you wouldn’t be able to afford it with cash. Brown bagging it is great though, healthier, cheaper, and less wasteful than all those plastic sealed things and individual drinks!

  130. MidAmericanAnon*

    All interviews (including mine) are now completed for a management position in my department. I’m in a sort of weird position because I’m an internal candidate. Because my interview was the first of the four, I was able to go to the other interviews as a staff member. I wouldn’t have done so, except the management position that is open directly supervises my current position… so I have skin in the game regardless. But I followed the advice just to be present and not ask questions; that said there’s only so much feedback I feel comfortable giving because obviously I am also a candidate! I ended up telling my colleague on the search committee that if I weren’t selected, my favorite candidate of the other three was Person X. I actually think Person X would be great at the job and feel that they had a much stronger interview than I did, but they are also coming from another industry, so who knows!

    It was a really nerve-wracking interview. I work in academia, and one of the things I was assessed on during the interview was my presentation skill. I was assigned to teach a lesson based on a syllabus I was provided – a topic covered in a class I personally know almost zilch about – and many of the people in the room watching were people who actually teach that class! AND they are my current colleagues. So it was kind of a ride. I would have been way less nervous if I were presenting to a room full of strangers.

    The good thing is that even if I am not offered this position, I do enjoy my current role. I’ve just been here for several years now, and I’m kind of keeping my eyes open for a role change. The role I’m in the running for would be a big change and challenging, but a lot more intense than my current role. So, pros and cons.

  131. Izzy Legal*

    My ‘main’ supervisor and my ‘dotted line’ supervisor constantly contradict each other. Any tips on how to handle? I.e., MainBoss says the answer is “A” on a Monday, but then DottedLineBoss says it’s B” on Wednesday. I sometimes feel like their litigator; they’re never on the same page. To make it more complicated, the three of us aren’t even in the same office; we’re all in remote locations.

    I tend to go with DottedLineBoss, because she’s the head of my division (Chocolate Teapots), but MainBoss is the head person for my function (marketing).

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Is this communication happening via email or a chat system? If so, could you request they copy each other by default?

      Probably easier if you’re using an internal chat system. With email, you could just have a meeting or send them an email (depending on your culture/dynamic) letting them know that you’ll be copying the other when replying, to keep everyone on the same page; that way, they don’t have to remember to copy each other, just hit “Reply all.”

  132. Shiny Swampert*

    Tldr: should I ask a colleague not to repeat a really, really off colour phrase?

    I’m female. Colleague is male. We’re similar ages and have similar tastes in music and pop culture so get along quite well.

    In a Skype call this week he used a really really off colour phrase. He preempted by saying something like “to use one of my most offensive phrases” and… it really was. In our office culture most of the analysts swear a fair amount but this was too far for me. (I’ll put it as a reply, if anyone doesn’t want to see it definitely collapse this comment thread!)

    I’m inclined not to say anything unless he repeats it or something else similarly offensive. What do you think?

    1. Shiny Swampert*

      You really want to know what the phrase was?!
      .
      .
      .
      “… Don’t give two tugs of a dead dog’s ****”.

      If you’re here, N, hi and let’s pretend this never happened ;)

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Yuck. That’s not really work appropriate. I wouldn’t love it if someone said that casually in a social setting, but in a workplace, extra ugh.

        1. Shiny Swampert*

          Yeah ironically if we’d been in the pub I would have been far more likely to say “YUCK that’s disgusting never say that again” but it’s harder over IM…

    3. EddieSherbert*

      I probably wouldn’t bring it up out of the blue now that the moment has passed – but if it comes up again or he says something similarly offensive (and really, WTF, that is a bizarre and horribly uncomfortable phrase?! That’s not a thing people actually say is it?! WTF), you definitely should say something in the moment! Because that is definitely not a work appropriate phrase. Maybe not even casual appropriate, in my opinion.

  133. Ameer Tohamy*

    So this is a weird question, but here goes:
    I just met with a guy who runs a chain of tattoo shops for a desk job. It involves cleaning the store, taking appointments, etc.
    The problem came when he said it would be more like an apprenticeship, so I would not be getting a W2 or 1099 form. It would be all paid in cash.
    I don’t know why, but that feels…hinky. Is that wrong?

    1. Amber Rose*

      It’s illegal. Apprentices are employees and still have to pay taxes, which means you still need the usual paperwork. Paying you cash without any of that is paying you under the table.

    2. Fire for Effect, Over*

      Apprenticeships are training pathways towards a specific career or trade. Unless you’re training to be a tattoo artist, he is not doing it right and is probably not reporting the wages on his business return which means the business could be in shady waters, too. The payment of cash usually connotes an independent contractor and when it reaches $600, a 1099 is required.

      You can visit the IRS website re: employee vs contractor (contractors are paid via 1099).
      https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee
      Behavioral
      – Do you have a set schedule of in/out of the shop?
      – Does he supply the resources necessary to do your job?
      – Does he tell you how to do the work (tasks and responsibilities)
      – Is there a contract detailing services or responsibilities?
      – Who is ultimately responsible for your work and any financial implication of that work?

      1. Ameer Tohamy*

        Thanks for letting me know.
        I was aware of the difference between contractors and employees. I didn’t know about apprenticeships
        Thanks again

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      That sounds like the definition of getting paid under the table, frankly. Is he proposing to pay you so little that you won’t have to report it for income taxes? If no, then you need to be receiving some kind of tax reporting document.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This doesn’t shock me, as someone familiar enough with tattoo shops and their practices.

      This isn’t legal and it’s not an apprenticeship. He’s throwing that word around because artists do apprentice to get their licenses.

      He’s just hiring a receptionist and doesn’t want to set up payroll. You can’t get away with putting a receptionist on a 1099.

      This is an under the table gig. You’re right to be spooked! Unless you’re into the culture and want to do it as a gig, don’t. He will most likely try to not pay you on time and if he’s not making enough money, your cash is the first he’s going to flake off giving you before he doesn’t pay his overhead that is required to keep the shops open.

      It may also be a laundering scheme also. So yeah…just don’t get involved if you’re looking for a legit job.

  134. Fire for Effect, Over*

    What to do when your boss asks you to assume a different job, in addition to your current job (and they’re not similar jobs)?

    Me: I’m in non-profit, a part-time hourly coordinator between programs, development, and events. I’ve been with the organization for 10-mos and have worked in non-profit for 20 years. I enjoy my work and am happy with part-time and am interested with full-time to grown this role in these departments.

    Background: Our Executive Director is 7-mos on the job. When she arrived, the Office Manager (who’s been with the organization for 40 years) said she will retire at the end of the fiscal year, June/July. The ED did not learn the Office Manager’s job or cross-train us. The Office Manager leaves next Wednesday.

    The ED’s request: The Executive Director, and Development Director, asked me to assume the Office Manager’s role as a ‘project’. The ‘project’ is I would do the job all the while evaluating the position, improving efficiency, capacity, and process/procedures. The intent (they say) is to hire someone at a later (undefined) date. They say I have the skills to evaluate the job, which I agree I do, but the work isn’t what I want to do and I let them know this.

    While it’s for the good of the organization, it’s not where my interests are. Additionally, they say this could take 6-12- or 18 months – whatever it takes to make sure it’s done well – so they’re not suggesting an overall timeline to move forward with a hire. They will increase my hours to 35/weekly and let me work from home 1-day a week (I work M-Th now).

    My thoughts:
    – They’re doing this because they’re in a bind for not preparing.
    – Yes, the position needs to be upgraded, as it’s 40 years old and the Office Manager didn’t do much to maintain its efficiencies or capacity.
    – Yes, we’ll be out an Office Manager and someone has to do her tasks, which means we all will (there’s only 4 of us due to 2 departures and 1 maternity leave but we expect to hire a program person soon) or the ED will, but probably not.

    My suggested counteroffer:
    – Hard end timeline of 6-mos (end of January) and they need to be ready to hire someone
    – Increase of $3/hour during that timeline (they pay the Office Manager $20/hour)
    – Work from home 2-days a week (my commute is 2-hours/RT/day leaving at 2 pm but the later I stay the longer my drive) as most of my programs/development/event work can be done via the internet

    Concerns:
    – I’m not sure if this is easy to translate on a resume. Having worked in non-profit for 20-years, and client services to fundraising-Ex Director- and back, my resume is full and I’m not looking to specialize in an area; I like being a generalist of sorts. It’s served me well.
    – They may not let me go back to the other position, part or full time, or they might hire someone for my current role and leave me to Office Manager.
    – Helping out the organization is something I’d normally bend over backward to do, but I haven’t really latched on to this place quite yet (I’ve talked about this with my boss) mostly due to the changes and challenges.
    – There’s no promotion or benefits from doing this other than making a little more money and being nice.

    Should I worry about retribution or is that mitigated in the positive way I decline the offer?

    Thanks

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Did the office manager at least have process documents to fall back on? Please…dear Lord, say yes.

      I agree 100% with you.

      Also as an person who’s dropped into OM positions without any training before, they’ll be able to find one if they just start looking and make it known that it’s a learn-as-you go sort of thing. They should not need you to get in there and invest so much time retooling the position, that’s pretty poor planning and decision making on their side.

      And fricking eh! they better pay you her wage and not yours, that’s for sure. This reeks of poor planning and rush decision making. They’re banking on taking advantage of your dedication to the entity at this rate and really pulling on your strings.

      1. Fire for Effect, Over*

        Thank you. I feel that this is a Pandora’s box and should be avoided but wasn’t sure there was a way I could frame it as a win-win for both. There are more wins for them than me.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’m going to caution you about saying no completely. It can explode either way. So I’d take the path of less resistance at least to save yourself the most grief in the end and you can go away with that “at least I tried” feeling.

          The last time I told some one who was that disorganized and unrealistic no, they lost their minds and made me into a monster. They are already unreasonable and asking for big favors, so take that into consideration and know that in the end, you may have to leave this place for those reasons. It stinks but it’s one of those things when the big-boss simply stinks at things like planning stuff out.

          The last one I had knew that our rockstar CSR was leaving and was salty about it. They refused to ask her to stay on for a little while longer to train a new person, even though we knew she would have done it just because it was a “she’s dead to me” kind of nonsensical setup after someone gave notice. They took all push-back as sheer defiance of their ultimate powers.

          1. Fire for Effect, Over*

            I’m going with ‘my gut says no’ as it was my first reaction when they proposed the idea and I haven’t been able to say ‘yes’ with confidence or caveats. I’m trying to crowdsource pros because I know the cons. Now, it’s possible that my coworkers and I will be tasked responsibilities as a result of this. There’s the possibility my boss and her 2nd hand woman will be upset and I’ll endure some ‘you’re not a team player’ feelings. That’s the way the non-profit rolls sometimes.

    2. Psyche*

      I don’t think you should make a counteroffer. If you do not want this job, I think it is better to say that your really are not interested in taking on the office manager’s job, but of course you pitch in to help cover her duties while they look for a replacement (to show that your refusal doesn’t make you not a team player). Anything else has a high risk of you being stuck with the job for far longer than you are ok with. Even if they agree to a 6 month deadline, what will happen in 6 months? They had a lot of time to plan for the office manager leaving and didn’t. They will most likely just pressure you to keep doing it for another X months.

      1. Fire for Effect, Over*

        Thank you. You’re more than likely right. And since I did make it clear this wasn’t something I wanted to do, at all, it’s probably better to not veer into the area and try to get out of it later one.

  135. Certifications*

    Does anyone have any experience with knowing what certifications are helpful in their job search? I am looking for business analysis/ QA certifications. Not project management. Thank you

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It usually is industry dependent, so you may want to search your industry and their available certifications. Then look around to see if people in those positions have them, you can lurk their LinkedIns to get that information sometimes.

      To be honest, in most of my experience, certifications outside of required ones in your industry or ones your industry pushes for, aren’t worth the money they cost you. In my situation, I see people with certificates listed and just don’t care? It does nothing to push me towards that person, sometimes I wonder if they have a lot of time on their hands more than anything.

  136. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Looking for suggestions on keeping stress down.
    Today’s my manager’s last day. I have no more buffer between me and the exessively Lean and Agile chaos above.
    Her workload has been divided up & added to the workload of the 6 of us who remain….which is already down to 13 if you count back into time to everyone who had been working on these responsibilities. One of those 6 is dotted-line in another region, hired only after a year-long fight, and not yet set up with software by the powers that be.
    No word on whether or not our fearless leader will be replaced. We still have to do all the work with no OT and no telecommute….but hey at least they are going to let us keep our archive cabinets. (You know, the ones we’re legally required to keep, but keeping them is said like it’s a favor.)
    She’d been working 60-70 hour days to keep up with all the craziness, so I expect my AskAManager breaks will become few & far between. Wish me luck… now off to do some lunch-ending stretches before I knuckle back down.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Annnd the minor changes begin. We now have to submit vacation requests a full week in advance. So much for flexing the warp and just making sure I hit 40 during the calendar week.

  137. Anon for Mental Health*

    I’m severely burnt out and just…exhausted.

    I work for a small business. I like working for it. I like the owner. I like parts of the job. I’m paid very well.

    The problem is it is literally not possible for me to do everything I’m supposed to take care of. I mean, there’s just not enough time in the day and it’s getting worse. I’m making serious mistakes as a result. Or at least I think they’re serious.

    I almost never have time for the planning and big-picture stuff that I’m supposed to be handling because I’m constantly bogged down with a thousand small things that need to be done. Any time I try to work on one project, I end up having to let ten other things–things that are important too–drop. I can’t do it. I’m exhausted. I’m depressed. I’m having fairly concerning recurring thoughts.

    My boss would absolutely let me shift things around but it’s going to be up to me to figure out what to do and I’m so low on spoons I don’t know what to suggest.

    I do the budget so I know what we do and do have the income for.

    Part of the problem is that I’m page a very good salary–extremely good! because of the big-picture planning and strategy I’m supposed to be doing. The problem is I can never actually DO that stuff because there’s not enough time to do that while I’m also drowning in this f’ing day to day crap. There’s enough income in the business that we can somewhat increase our part-timer’s hours but frankly not enough to get me out of this hole.

    I’m just–exhausted and I don’t know what to suggest anymore.

    1. fposte*

      I think you have three choices: 1) leave for greener pastures 2) stay knowing things aren’t going to change 3) accept a lower salary for a better quality of life/work to bump the part-timer up to most- or full-time. That last is a pretty nuclear option, but I imagine it’s already crossed your mind, and there are (rare) circumstances under which I would choose to do it

      Sometimes jobs just are too much for one person, and no amount of repacking the contents will make it fit in the suitcase. It sounds like you need to face that and decide what you want to do about that. I will say it sounds like you may be taking on some of the worry that really should belong to the owner of this business–if they can’t pay their employees enough to do the work that needs to be done, that’s a business owner problem, and while it obviously affects you, you should make your choices based on what’s good for you, not for the business.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Start by increasing the PTers hours as much as you can and by setting a time (say, 2hrs Weds morning) where you are focused on big picture things. For your first one, do a workload assessment and really look at what you’ve been doing for the past 2 weeks and see what could have been:
      1) Skipped – assign priorities based on financial / regulatory impact and really think about the bottom tier.
      2) Outsourced – can you pay someone else to do specialized work like payroll or book keeping?

      Try this for two months and then do another workload assessment. If it’s not better after that, fposte’s options.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So you’re capped on on income and therefore can’t hire someone on? Instead you’re absorbing it all? The only “very good salary” for that kind of work is a CEO level salary with bonuses attached for all your work. I say this so that you realize that even if you make 50% more than someone else in your position in a similar sized company, you’re not making enough money to be this invested and involved.

      I’ve been there. I’ve been paid well for “what we can afford” and a reasonable lifestyle [I can afford to live without roommates or a secondary income of any sorts]. But when you’re too tired to even enjoy your life or lift your head off your pillow in the morning, it’s not worth it. No sum of money is, unless you are ownership or have high stakes in this setup.

      You have to find the money for upping your part timers hours to the point that you’re not drowning. It is there, maybe the owner needs to take a salary reduction. His salary should be reduced before yours is, since you’re killing yourself for him and he’s the one with the high stakes right now, it’s in his best interest to shave his salary down or to give a cash injection from his own account and loan the business the capital to deal with the increased payroll until you catch up and the company can pay it back.

      That’s on the owner. This is all on the owner. Your budget is one thing but in reality, if you don’t have the budget to sustain the wages needed, he needs a loan. Be it personal or from a bank or he needs to find an investor.

      1. fposte*

        Dammit, that point about the owner’s pay reduction is so good and I can’t believe I didn’t go there first!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I have had owners have to inject cash and take reductions before ;) So that’s why it came right to mind, so that could be why I beat you to it!

          My most beloved boss took nothing out of the business for five years during the recession to keep the place open and all his employees taken care of. It wasn’t their only source of income so it was doable. The other option is to shut it down if you run out of money and cannot get the financing or live off the reduction.

    4. Kiwiii*

      You aren’t able to do the job you’re meant to be doing because of how busy you are. I would think it would be worth it to increase the PT person’s hours or even hire someone else to pick up some slack or a few “more recurring than realized” tasks and have them be Their tasks rather than yours that they’re covering. If you have time to do more big picture work, you’ll likely also have time to think about cost-cutting and/or incoming-making avenues that will balance the cost back out after a short while.

    5. TechWorker*

      How explicit have you been with your boss about how unmanageable the workload is? If you trust them in general and think they would let you shift things around then ask for help. You’re burnt out and starting to drop things – that’s serious and your health needs to come first.

  138. Gutted*

    Hey guys, going anon for this one as I am gutted and don’t know what to do. Earlier this week my bosses sat me down and explained our organization was going to a non-hierarchical business structure. Basically its our upper 4 management at the top, then everyone else is all on the same level as “Team members.” I am, or was, the coordinator of the teapot service department.. now I am teapot service team member 1 with no coordinator or department manager job duties. Essentially, I was demoted, along with the other department coordinators. I took this job for the step up and responsibility of managing a department and now this. I have no idea what to do, this seems like a bad idea to me but does anyone have any experience with these types of organizations?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t have experience with those types of organizations, but I would consider looking for a new job. You took the job to get the experience and that experience is sifting in a way that it sounds like you’re pretty unhappy about. Why not start looking while you decide if the job is going to work out?

      1. Gutted*

        Super unhappy about it, and unfortunately this is just another thing on top of all the bad things at this place. I’ve been trying for 8 months now to find something new and.. zip. Been turned down for over 10 jobs

      2. Gutted*

        Super unhappy about it, and unfortunately this is just another thing on top of all the bad things at this place. I’ve been trying for 8 months now to find something new and.. zip. Had 10 jobs where I was the second top candidate but feeling pretty blue

        1. Kiwiii*

          10 jobs is a ton to be in the top group of, it says something that you’re Almost the right fit for so many places. Just keep going with applications and something is bound to work out soon.

      1. Gutted*

        Nope, no one gets titles, except the upper management and somehow my boss ended up with a better title!

    3. Purt’s Peas*

      Yes. Cynically, it means that instead of explicit rules about who has authority, there are secret rules about who has authority.

      Less cynically, I would ask for more details about how your duties will or won’t change, and ask for more information about who has decision-making power for x, y, and z things you need to know about.

      If your managerial / authoritative duties have disappeared, or if you are still expected to perform some tasks that require authority but you no longer seem to have authority—get out.

      1. Gutted*

        All of my managerial/ authoritative duties have completely disappeared, I have a basic boiled down entry level position now with some tiny things that were added I think just so I don’t leave. They tried to sell it as good for everyone but this is going to be a disaster, were so tiny (under 20 employees) I just don’t see how it would work… we’re not a creative, innovative business

        1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

          I hate to bring this up on top of the title demotion but… what does it mean for salaries and bonuses going forward?

          1. Gutted*

            They said my salary will be staying the same… but honestly I don’t see it moving forward staying that way with what they’ve done to my job duties. Bonuses are non existent here

    4. TechWorker*

      Yea this sounds like bullshit… my company used to have fewer titles (basically just ‘engineer’ and ‘manager’ – but at least management roles were formally recognised. I think agree with others that no titles makes it really difficult to know who’s in charge. I’d hang on in there for now but continue your job hunt. Good Luck!

    5. Artemesia*

      I would be looking for another job fast while you are still direction a program. I have known several people well who have worked in holocracy and other faddish flat hierarchies and they are a clown show. One organization was very promising, building market share like gangbusters and then implemented this crap and soon the most important mission sustaining tasks (marketing, recruitment related) were not getting done because they were ‘everyone’s responsibility’ and there was no coordinated effort or sustained work and suddenly there were no clients. ‘I don’t know, what do YOU think we should do’ is not a management strategy for success. There are processes that engage workers in decision making that can be effective, but nobody is running things is not one of those.

  139. Jana*

    I’m currently interviewing for a job that sounds like it could be interesting, and the people I’ve met with have for the most part been nice. However, scheduling has been horrible! They come across as inconsiderate of my time–every time they’ve asked for an interview, they’ve offered less than 24 hours notice. I haven’t really had a problem pushing back, but I can’t help but feel like they’re being inconsiderate. Is this just poor scheduling during the hiring process, or should I maybe be reading more into it?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re probably just trying to fast track the hiring, to get you in as quickly as possible. Since they’re seemingly accepting your “no I can’t do that time” and moving forward with your candidacy.

      If they were truly awful or inconsiderate, they would just say “This is the only time [tomorrow at 8am] and make it or take a hike!”

      I always try to get people in ASAP but then again I do make it clear that “we would prefer ASAP, tomorrow perhaps? I do understand that this may not work for your schedule, please let me know what works for you.” [So they may just lack the extra thought process of letting people know their preference isn’t an absolute and you have to go the extra step to say “no, I can’t, I need to do it x days out.”

    2. new kid*

      Is the scheduler the hiring manager or someone in HR? IMO that makes all the difference. The HR recruiter I worked with for the job I started a few months ago was absolutely terrible (short notice on interviews, not clarifying they would be video until they were already scheduled, never seemed to read my emails fully, etc), but everyone else I spoke to at the org was wonderful so I ignored it and fortunately haven’t had any contact with her since (now two months into the new job).

      It definitely did make the hiring process more stressful for me though, so it’s frustrating either way. But I wouldn’t read into it necessarily.

  140. The most anony mouse*

    So it’s becoming clear that the leadership in my team (going up a good few levels) is really not functioning as it should.

    Decisions are being made by committee, in theory, but in reality they’re just not really being made. The team manager professes to love healthy challenge, but I’ve heard from people that I trust that she cuts off anyone who even asks questions about whether our targets are realistic and stops them from getting opportunities.

    I really love my job and all the individuals on it. But all this is massively frustrating and doesn’t help my motivation.

    I’m committed to staying in this org for a year or two for and it might be that there are some management changes and if so that might give me the opportunity to step up and go WAY out of my comfort zone by actually trying to fix some of this stuff (and accepting that this might end with people hating me – but honestly it would be worth it, even given my overwhelming need to be liked).

    But if that doesn’t happen – how do I stop ranting with my colleagues about how broken our team is?

    I need to just shut down the complaining and discussing what’s wrong, right? And Get On With It.

    The frustrating thing is that if I trusted the manager I would speak up to the team leads :-|

    Or should I look into moving teams?

  141. Invisible Fish*

    When you’ve decided you need to take a step back from your job so that you stop being so wrapped up in it and actually have a life, what do you say to yourself when your overachieving, type A brain is screaming that you must know what is going on/you should be a part of that project/you’re going to be LEFT OUT!!! What are some steps to take to rewire yourself so you aren’t all work all the time?

    1. anon anon anon anon*

      “Not my circus, not my monkeys”. Start with the things that are truly, genuinely, not your responsibility/job/it doesn’t impact you to be left out of. Acknowledge your thoughts and then remind yourself why you’re doing this.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      “This is a great opportunity for my colleagues to step-up and shine.”

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I should have added: It helps me to remember I’m on a team and that helping my colleagues grow is part of my responsibility as a good team player (which is a metric that is important to me).

  142. Moana*

    Re: Staying “sharp” when not working anymore

    Thanks to all who replied to my weekend free-for-all post July 13-14. The recent “what do I do once I retire” posts was timely too.

    My spouse, S., got the job. Things will remain the same for at least another year since there is at least a year of training before placement, but after that…who knows…. I am hoping S. will be placed at the location nearest to where we currently live so we don’t have to move across the country/internationally and sell our recently purchased house or rent it out. S’s new job will move us at some point though.

    Part of me hopes I can work remotely (I am really damn good at what I do, the benefits of this job are great, and I’m getting a 25% raise over the next 3 years). Another part of me definitely feels the burnout and would welcome “taking a break”. I know there are more important things and know everyone is replaceable, but I really do get validation and gratification from my job knowing that my boss, grand-bosses, and the boss value me and my work. I feel great all day when I solve complex cases or help someone get what they need. Will I get the same gratification if I clean the whole house, or fix the oven, or cook a great meal? There are no kids in the picture yet, but when that baby is born, will I want to quit anyway? So. Many. Thoughts. And! I’ve also been thinking about starting a business and this would definitely give me the opportunity to focus on that, but that’s scary too!

    I know it will all work out, whatever happens….

  143. Older & Wiser (Now)*

    (Temporarily changed my username for the open thread to protect my identity- in case people I personally know are here.)
    I’m an Admin (of 40+ years) currently working at a local small business. Toxic workplace, but I’ve only been here 10 months. I’m quietly job searching, but I want to try to stick it out here a few more months for the sake of my resume. (I was finally hired here after a long job search, after 4 years out of the workforce. Until that time, career history had been solid.)
    **My stance in life is that (1) I Don’t Judge Others, and (2) Some Things are None Of My Business – unless and until The Thing or person directly affects me (or interferes with my ability to do my job well.)
    **The Thing: boss/owner (he) is having long term affair with another admin (she’s worked there for years). The other admin has his ear, and she relishes her standing; okay, but she will denegrate others to the boss, sabotage and undermine anyone who she wants out of the way, sees as a threat or competition, etc. – specifically where it concerns her ‘seniority’ standing in her admin role. (It’s known that I’m happily married, so anything else is a non issue for me.) I’m really trying not to be unkind, but she is an awful person and others have remarked on how b*tchy she is with me. Whatevs. I take the high road and make nice anyway.
    To top it off: His Wife Knows about the affair. (She’s a lovely person.) They know she knows. Everyone knows. And they all come to me to ask/talk about it in subtle ways. From the beginning, I dismissed the rumors and gossip, did not engage, bc it’s not my style, and I won’t allow The Thing to bite me in the a$$. But over the past few months, the talk has become increasingly frequent; boss and other admin are very obvious in their interactions with each other, especially The front of me and others. The wife herself confided in me bc she trusts me Andy character. I’m sympathetic and I see how difficult this is for her, and I respond kindly.
    **Not my circus, not my monkeys. I like to figuratively face-palm any drama that comes my way and I MMOB. I focus on my own work and doing my job well. However, The Thing that is now quite literally in my face makes it difficult to get away from it. I know I need to find another job, but for the time being I just need to figure out a way to survive in this dumpster fire (which WILL clearly explode in epic proportions eventually; we see it coming) until I make my glorious escape. Someday.
    Anyone else encountered similar?
    Any suggestions, advice, encouragement would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    1. Older & Wiser (Now)*

      And my apologies for the lengthy essay (I actually left out alot!); I guess I poured my heart out here. Thanks for understanding.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. I’m so glad you’re lowkey on your way out, you deserve better than that nonsense.

      Some people thrive off that atmosphere, they are gossip mongers and roll around it in delighted to be covered in that mess.

      I’m a private individual and would be barfing inside dealing with an out in the open affair in general, let alone that kind of power dynamics made-for-tv-movie setup you’re dealing with.

      You will escape. Now that you have a job, even though you had that four year gap, you should still be okay. Lots of jobs after a long gap tend to be taken out of desperation in the end. This boils down to “it’s not a good fit” kind of scenario and looking to leave after just 10 months, meh the worse thing that happens is you don’t get called in. Better to have tried than to never have bothered at all, in my opinion. And you don’t know what’s out there until you start looking, so things may be passing you by right now that you’d be a great fit for.

      1. Older & Wiser (Now)*

        Thank you, TMBL! As ever, you are consistently on point x100! I really appreciate your reply. You validated what I know to be true. (And yeah – Ew! Ew! Ew! Ew!)

    3. animaniactoo*

      EvilMe™ would like you to talk to your boss about his *open interactions* with other admin, and simply say you’re getting a lot of comments about it, and you’re doing your best to shut them down but people seem to keep coming to you about it anyway. You’d prefer not to deal with it at all, but since people keep coming to you, you wanted to let him know that comments are happening. If this is in any way client-facing or otherwise harmful to the business, you might mention that you’re concerned about the impression that [outside people] may be coming away with. Ahem. All while never ever acknowledging that he is, indeed, sleeping with other admin.

      1. Older & Wiser (Now)*

        I’ve actually considered exactly that several times. And I act it out in my head. However, he has quite the volatile temper, to put it mildly. Like a split personality, he can be really nice and pleasant to work with- until he literally snaps over something to the extremes. Another reason why I’m quietly job searching. And now that the wife has confided in me, I wouldn’t want her to feel like she was the cause of that convo, or for my leaving eventually. It’s a real clusterf**k of crazy cake.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Oooooh. Sorry. I got nothing except Grin & Bear It and maybe do the anthropologist thing where you deal with the crazy by pretending you’re an anthropologist/sociologist studying human behavior?

          Fingers crossed you’re out of there soon – in a good way!

          1. Older & Wiser (Now)*

            Thanks! Yes, I’m doing exactly that – it’s akin to an expedition in unchartered territory. And it will make for some eye-popping storytelling in the future with trusted friends and family!

  144. Urianger Scion*

    Does anyone ever feel like they need to create a faker, nicer personality for work? I’m always the newest and youngest hire in the workplace so I worry about making a good impression and doing well in my new position. I feel that my real personality (quiet, introverted, sarcastic, huge nerd, gamer, easily emotional about Disney movies) would somehow put me in a disadvantage and that it’s easier to create a fake persona that is more social and sunny to get along with everyone. For example, I’ve previously been characterized as being cold and distant even though I’ve always helped other teammates and tried to be social – because I was still reserved and quiet a lot of the times. It was frustrating because I don’t want to be pegged as being as something I’m not but also because it’s tiring to be so fake. I’m hoping that my new career change will allow me to be working with people who are more similar to me but I can’t switch over till I get my new degree in 2 years unfortunately.

    Anyone have tips on finding a good balance? I honestly just want to be left alone and keep chugging away at work.

    1. Amethystmoon*

      All the time. Especially since as a woman, the feedback given tends to lean towards “be nice and be quiet.” I bite my tongue constantly.

      Keeping a paper diary helps since one can vent there, but keep the diary at home and never, ever put the venting online or show it to co-workers. Also, I play old-school RPGs in the evenings, away from work, which helps for stress relief.

    2. OtterB*

      If you’re an introvert, then putting yourself out there to be more social will be tiring regardless.

      Can you find some ways to be somewhat more social without feeling like you are being completely fake? So, not inventing a new you, but leaning toward the sunny side of the real you. I find it easiest to do this if I have a clear, specific role I’m carrying out (e.g. I don’t like introducing myself to people, but at work events that’s part of the role of Staff and so it’s My Job Role that’s talking, not me personally). It also helps me to develop something that’s a routine kind of script for interaction with people, something that’s reasonably interesting to me but also to the people I’m interacting with. Your garden, a local sports team, something where your nerd interests overlap with popular culture … something where you can have a couple of sentence interchange where your coworkers don’t think that Urianger Scion is ignoring them, and you don’t feel like you have to talk nonstop.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is how I think of it too. It’s not a new fake sunny personality, it’s Work Me vs. Regular Me. Work Me is just the version of me that plays nice with others (small talk, little jokes, a funny anecdote about my kids/cats/friends) in the interests of getting work done and building a good reputation.

        You don’t have to smile and chat all the time, for sure. That would be exhausting and unsustainable. But you do have to watch for the right opportunities. A well-timed smile, nod, or friendly comment go a long way to breaking any perception of being cold and distant. Your goal is to have people think of you as approachable without actually approaching you all the time.

        And yeah, it absolutely is the people who never talk to you first who complain you never talk!

    3. sunshyne84*

      This is my struggle. It’s especially frustrating when you know several other quiet people, but somehow you’re the only one being pinpointed for it. Seems like the people that complain about me not talking are the same folks that haven’t ever tried to start a conversation. And I do talk to people! I have a carefully curated list lol

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I don’t know, I am everything you described yourself as, minus I don’t play video games unless Best Fiends counts, I know it doesn’t count. Up until recently-ish I’ve been the youngest too for the most part but in pretty high ranking positions. I’m not necessarily quiet, only because once I get comfortable I get chattier but coming into places, I’m a mouse.

      I never changed myself, except for reeling in my sarcasm and dry humor. I realized early on that lots of people misread my humor as seriousness, so I restrain it unless I know someone well enough.

      This may come with age though. You will become mores secure in your position, in your company and in your life so that you don’t think you need to hide much of this stuff.

      Tone it down? Sure! But who am I to speak to you about that when I work in a casual office, so I’ll roll up in Lion King shirts and talk about my favorite wrestlers when given the chance.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      As others have said, I compartmentalize Work!Me and Home!Me.

      One tip: Could you make yourself goals and/or designated times to be social? Some examples of goals you might set (maybe pick one?)

      -Every other day, I will make a point to ask about a coworker’s hobby/family/vacation that they mentioned recently as I start my day/over lunch/before a meeting starts.
      -Once a week, I will sit in the common area for lunch and make small talk with coworkers.

  145. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    It’s been a bad week in my job hunting and general life realms. There is a job that I really want, I think, but it has a really far away closing date and my other half thinks they are just fishing for CVs to see if anyone interesting applies. I’m not so sure but in typical fashion (for this industry anyway) they have a line on the job description about calling or emailing them for an informal chat about the job. I sent an email last Friday and I have not had a reply. I’m going to call on Monday, I think, but it feels discouraging to me already. I have probably built up the possibilities in my mind too much but it feels like I’m being ignored.

    I have also applied for two other jobs in the last few weeks (and that said they wanted people ASAP) that I am 110% qualified for and heard nothing. To top it off I have been really frustrated with getting my boiler repaired (guy came out and fixed it, but then it quit working, and I have not been able to get him to come back — long story of unanswered calls and excuses). AAaargh I just feel frustrated with everything!

    On the subject of the informal chat: is this common in other fields? Have you ever actually done it, and what questions did you ask?

  146. incognitomode007*

    Does anyone have recommendation on how to get your boss to start being more boss like? I ask this because there’s been a number of times where my boss will disclose details of their dating life, mention how they don’t know what the strategy of the team is nor what it should be, and things like talk about how they aren’t happy with their role. I’ve shut down conversations in the past and I believe shown that I’m not interested in being a work buddy. Yet, their lack of professionalism keeps on keeping on. Just the other day in our open office situation, they were loudly on their phone trying to set up a blind date. With way too many details.

    I’m not saying that my boss can’t be human. But I want them to be more professional and respect the boundaries between a manager and an employee.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This kind of person isn’t interested in changing. They’re in the authority position and you really can’t slide in and tell them to shape up and start actually being “the boss” that they’re supposed to be. That’s up for their own boss to talk to them about.

      If they’re making you uncomfortable or oversharing things about their dating life that could be seen as harassment, please report it to whomever is above them if possible! [I say if possible since perhaps this is the Boss Boss Boss and there’s nobody to go over their head to and then it’s a get out situation on your hands.]

    2. animaniactoo*

      I would have to give you an Alison response to this: Your boss sucks and is not going to change™.

      Sorry. You can try saying “I don’t think I’m a good person to talk to about this” a little more directly. But you have to decide how much you can do that without risking your job and how much of it you’re willing to put up with before it makes this job not worth the agita.

  147. Llellayena*

    Delegation:
    As a team lead, how do you delegate tasks to other team members when you’re the only one in the meetings to hear how the client wants things done? I’m leading a design team and I have many early design decisions that only I have heard, the picture of how to do it is in my head, and trying to describe it for someone else to produce would take longer than doing it myself. But I’ve got 2 team members that I need to give tasks to. I’m scrambling, they’re twiddling their thumbs. Help!

    Ps. This will get easier once the base design is set, I just need to get through the next 2 months.

    1. anon anon anon anon*

      If those other two team members can’t attend the meetings, I think detailed notes are your way to go.

    2. CM*

      Can your team members attend the meetings, or at least dial in remotely? That seems like the easiest fix here. Could you take photos or send them screenshots if there is anything visual they need to see?

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      In depth planning meetings with the two team members, where you walk through the design decisions and reasoning. The meeting should include a list of tasks and who is doing which.

      And let go of the picture of how to do it in your head. Let your team help you build a new picture.

    4. designbot*

      Do an internal kickoff with the two team members, outlining what the client wants and showing them resources to learn more about them. Then let them start spending some real time on it, working out what needs to happen to achieve the client’s goals from a pragmatic standpoint. Then review, correct where they’ve gone off, go again. Keep reviewing and correcting and they’ll get there eventually.

    5. Llellayena*

      I’ve done most of what’s been mentioned, but not everything can make it into notes and I’m working partially off information I received before I had the other team members. I’m also working in a program where each team member is working in it at the same time and we have to be careful not to get in each other’s way. The client changes I’m making are all over the place and if all three of us were doing the changes we’d be tripping over each other. I had a plan before the project started to give each person an assigned portion, but it seems like there’s too much interconnected to do that right now. Ack!

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Is this the only project? If all three of you are on the same page about what to do and there is other work, could you work in shifts for the changes (i.e. Lillith does changes 1-5, THEN Jacob does changes 6-10, THEN Llellayena does changes 11-15).

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          I’m thinking that if they’re interconnected, then there needs to be an order to what needs to be done, so you could essentially take turns making the changes. Less efficient in the short-run, but it also gives everyone a chance to 1) feel ownership, 2) familiarize themselves with how things are looking/interacting, and 3) develop skills (maybe).

  148. workerbee2*

    I’m a mid-career individual contributor – any higher and I would be a manager. My role at my org is such that I interact a lot with coworkers in other departments. Lately, I’ve been approached by various coworkers outside my department to take on additional duties. I’m invited to meetings to weigh in on things having absolutely nothing to do with my job, while being told that I have really valuable insight and that they truly want my input. I’m actually really enjoying this work, I’m generally happy to meet the business needs of the company in any way that I can, and it’s not interfering with my regular duties. But part of me feels like this is not a service someone in my position ought to be providing, given that I’m frequently the lowest level employee in the room. I’m wondering how much “outside the defined scope of my position” work I should be expected to take on while remaining in my current role. In the past, I’ve gradually taken on more and higher-level work and eventually gotten a promotion/raise, but I’ve been in my current position for 4 years and don’t think another promotion will be forthcoming. I’ve scheduled a meeting with my boss and grandboss to discuss my career path on Monday, but I’m wondering what other people think.

    1. OtterB*

      You should definitely talk to your boss about it, but this seems like a reasonable role for a senior individual contributor. You’re providing expertise in your work area to colleagues in other areas who need that information to be more effective.

      1. workerbee2*

        That is part of what’s going on, but in addition to coming to me for my thoughts on my content area X, they’re also asking for my input on Y, Z, A, B, and C. I’m full of opinions on just about any topic and glad to share them where appropriate, but everyone else in the room is a manager or higher, so why do they care what I think? I know the feedback is welcome because the leader of the meetings has approached me to specifically tell me how much she values my contributions and that she mentioned to her manager how fantastic she thinks I am.

        I’m a member of a small department (5 people) in a big company. Grandboss, boss, me, and 2 other coworkers. My boss says that there is enough room salary-wise between my current position and hers to give me a promotion if they create a position, but the budget likely won’t allow for it because our department overhead approximately doubled when they brought grandboss in this year.

        I basically want to talk to them about if there’s a path forward/up or if I need to leave to advance (which I’ve already been considering for a few months). I also want to discuss how much of the extra, not-really-my-job, work they want me doing. I’m happy to do it, just want to get feedback from higher up.

        1. OtterB*

          If others in the company outside your small department know you and respect you, a move to another department might give you a path up. Good luck with your discussion on Monday.

        2. Alianora*

          Maybe a promotion into a higher job isn’t possible, but it sounds like you could make a great case for getting a raise. Even if you do wind up looking elsewhere, it’s worth a shot to boost your salary while you’re searching.

          1. workerbee2*

            Unfortunately, company policy is that raises only happen in conjunction with promotions.

        3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          How flexible are job titles in your organization?

          I ask because management/people wrangling is a completely different skill set from individual contribution/project and technical expertise, so if you’re organization recognizes that AND values you, would they be open to creating a path for you to advance (“Senior Individual Contributor” to “Grand Exalted Individual Contributor”)? This assumes you aren’t interested in people wrangling so much as just advancing.

          The differences in skills/knowledge needed to people wrangle versus being a technical specialist may also be why “higher” level folks are asking you for input; their technical skills may feel rusty. Or perhaps they find it useful to have a fresh perspective from outside of the team/department.

          1. workerbee2*

            What has happened in the past is that when they want to give me a raise/promotion (one and the same at my org) they borrow an established job title w/ salary range from elsewhere in the company that didn’t necessarily previously exist in my department or division. Currently my position is “manager of special projects” but I’m hoping I might eventually be able to get them to bump me up to “project manager,” which is on a higher paygrade and would give me a ~10% raise. My organization is extremely transparent about salaries and posts ranges for open positions, which makes it easy to research salaries for various positions. They could “buy” me for at least another 2-3 years with a pay bump, so it will be interesting to see if they’re willing to consider it.

  149. Bibliovore*

    This is work related, I swear! I am working on a recommended reading list of Dog Books. I am pretty sure I know the usual suspects but…
    This is an incredible community of readers- Adult or YA or Kids. The title will be “what the dogs have taught me”
    Off the top of your head, in print or not, the best dog book you ever read? A childhood favorite? one you read over and over? One you give as gifts? Did the dog die?
    Fiction or informational. What is the title? A sentence of ” Why does this book come to mind?”

    1. tyrannosaurus vet*

      Your Robot Dog Will Die by Arin Greenwood
      Kirkus: “In a near-future world of drought and rising seas, a young dog lover learns to question what it means to be humane.”

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      Tearjerkers all, I guess, but in the best way:

      The Art of Racing In The Rain
      Lassie, Come Home [The end! When the fancy landowner Lord says, “No, that’s not my dog; she never was.” *Sob*]
      A Dog’s Purpose

    3. E*

      Where the Red Fern Grows is one of my favorites. The connection between the boy and his two dogs is described so well.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      Grey King by Susan Cooper. There’s dogs in most of that series (_The Dark Is Rising_) but Cafall is central to that one.

    5. Damien*

      I read a book called Conker when i was younger, written by Michael Morpurgo, and it revolves around two dogs – one who passes away, and another who takes its place. It wasn’t a tearjerker, but it was well-written, and sort of a wistful story with a good ending. I’d say it’s definitely a children’s book, but others might also enjoy it.

    6. obleighvious*

      Stormy by Jim Kjelgaard. All of his are good, and involve dogs; most involve boys and their dogs in the wilderness. I just remember this one because there’s a scene where a duck is stranded on a pond in the winter and is paddling furiously to keep the hole it is swimming in open water instead of freezing the pond over– the main character wishes to help it somehow, and this stray dog comes to its rescue, which is how the character and the dog meet.

    7. OtterB*

      My kids and I really enjoyed “Officer Buckle and Gloria” by Peggy Rathmann. It’s a lesson in teamwork.

      “Good Dog, Carl” by Alexandra Day is a fun wordless book.

      Also, the Henry and Mudge series by Cynthia Rylant. Sweet easy-reader books about a boy and his big dog.

    8. InsufficentlySubordinate*

      You might consider Jack London, either White Fang or Call of the Wild. The main title dogs don’t die, but others do. May not be quite what you’re looking for, but maybe look over the descriptions.

    9. Amethystmoon*

      I’m not sure if comic strips count, but I loved Peanuts as a kid. Snoopy was awesome. There are some compilations out there. My Grandma had one. I have fond memories of reading it when I was at her house, and I read it repeatedly because there wasn’t a whole lot else to do. This was in the time before the Internet and even before most people had cable TV.

    11. Gumby*

      Probably not what you are looking for, but Dave Barry just came out with “Lessons From Lucy: The Simple Joys of an Old, Happy Dog” and anything he ever writes is worth reading. If not for this exact purpose.

    12. Ms D'Arcy*

      The Dog Who Wouldn’t Be by Farley Mowat.
      Everyone in the family enjoyed this book. I am not sure if Mutt dies at the end.

    13. Mephyle*

      •The Dragonfly Pool by Eva Ibbotson. Not actually a dog book per se but a beautiful read. The dog is a minor, yet important character. The dog has a fulfilling and happy life, and dies at a ripe old age, having inadvertently committed a heroic deed in an unexpected way. You might laugh and cry at the same time.
      •Bel Ria by Sheila Burnford (who was also the author of Incredible Journey). Turns the dead dog trope upside down – the dog doesn’t die, but pretty much everyone else does. Get out your handkerchiefs.
      • (If this next one seems familiar, it’s because I had occasion to post about it just a few months ago.)
      No More Dead Dogs by Gordon Korman. Not a book about dead dogs, but a funny book about books about dead dogs. The key quote that makes me laugh every time is when the main character says, “Go to the library and pick out a book with an award sticker and a dog on the cover. Trust me, that dog is going down.”

    14. Peter*

      I am David by Anne Holm is a YA book, quite old now and with lots of trigger warnings (which I can’t enumerate without spoilers, except to say that David starts the book as a pre-teen escaping from a Soviet concentration camp).
      The dog is a major character, though not present from the start.
      It continues to produce intense emotions for me whenever I read it, some 30+ years after I first did so.
      The key phrase which relates to your question is within this quote “…was a sheepdog, and it knew what it was doing. It had shown David what it wanted him to do…” This is deliberately truncated to minimise spoilers.

  150. Stephanie*

    For the academics out there–has anyone written a recommendation letter for a professor’s promotion file? I think this is for a mid-cycle tenure review. I got an email from my grad school department saying this professor listed me as a former student reference and the department would like my feedback (in the form of a letter). Any suggestions? I took his class (where I struggled, but went to office hours a lot and got much stronger with the material) and consulted with him for research. I overall had a positive experience with him–just wanted to get suggestions for the best way to approach the letter.

    1. Academic in the Middle of Promotion Review*

      Thank you for asking.Think of this as a “cover letter” for their bid for tenure.
      What your professor wants and needs-
      Evidence that they were positively responsive to your challenges. Office hours, confidence in the subject area, improved grade, understanding, engagement.
      Evidence that they facilitated your research- what was your topic, how did they help?
      This is not the place to be nit-picky- or wish-washy. If you cannot honestly say why this professor should be promoted do not respond to the request. There will be others on the list.

    2. CTT*

      I did this once! One thing that helped me was to have a “story” for the letter rather than just a general “this person is great.” This was for a professor who taught classes not in my major but who taught a required class I needed; I ended up taking three classes with her and she became one of the professors I was closed to. I think if you talk specifically about your experience with this professor and how he helped you through the class, the same way you did here but with more detail, that would be helpful.

    3. Artemesia*

      When they ask a student for this reference they want to know about the professor as a teacher, and as a mentor. If the professor is a strong researcher and this is part of a tenure review process then evidence of their strong mentorship of your own research is important (if true) Generally these letters are most powerful if rather specific, but your comment about struggling and him helping you learn this difficult material is strong. If you can speak to him being inspiring, challenging (review committees want to know that the classes taught are hard and have high standards) and excellent in conveying difficult information that is helpful. And if he mentored you in a research project discuss that. (or helped you focus your interests and develop your research direction)

  151. miho*

    Two months into my new job…. and I have absolutely nothing to do.

    My supervisor has told me that summer is generally slow season, and that things tend to pick up in the fall. But I am so incredibly bored. The tasks that I am given only take about 10 minutes to complete, and I spend the rest of the day making up my own little projects and reading AAM. I’ve already signed up to participate in workshops and other semi work related activities (e.g. staff book club), but there simply isn’t enough work for me to do. I often wonder why they hired me in the first place.

    My biggest concern with this arrangement is that my brain is going dull. I went from a super fast-paced and challenging (but admittedly toxic) office to my current very laid-back casual office, and I feel like my skills are slipping away. When I took this job, I was hoping it would be a stepping stone for something better 1 or 2 years from now (I don’t intend to stay longer, as the pay for this position and this company in general aren’t terrific). But now I am worried that a year from now, it’d be incredibly difficult for me to find a new job, since my current job gives me little to no responsibilities. The tasks that I have been given are so below my skill set that I don’t feel like I am developing as a professional. I have a masters degree, and all I am doing is data entry and organizing files, which I understand are necessary in any job, but I do wish my projects weren’t JUST limited to these tasks.

    1. Mischief Managed*

      I had this problem too! I was hired as a temp to take over for someone who hadn’t left yet. Her job was not meant for two people and I spent the first two months watching her work and then occasionally being allowed to do some of the projects she was working on.
      When she left, two months later, everything picked up for the event I was hired to do and it was great! This may be something you have to wait out.
      But does your department work with other departments? I’m naturally curious so while I was bored, I asked other departments what they did with the information I gave them that I would pull from our database. And what they told me made me realize that there was a more comprehensive document that had everything they needed in one place, and they didn’t know it existed! Once I told them, they started asking to do things that would help with their requests in the future and while it wasn’t part of my primary duties, my boss was okay with lending me to them while I was twiddling my thumbs.
      Not sure if this is a possibility for you, but once my boss realized how little I had to do she gave me more tasks to keep me busy. A couple of them I had to learn new skills to do.
      Best of luck! I know firsthand how frustrating that must be.

      1. miho*

        I’ve done a couple of small things for/with the other teams within my department, but I haven’t really had much interaction with other departments yet. That seems be a pretty big part of my direct manager’s job.

        I think I just really overestimated the scale and scope of this job. It’s really just an entry level admin job, and majority of the project management tasks are done by my supervisor. But I was really desperate for a job when I got this offer.

    2. Alianora*

      I would be looking for another job. I was in a similar situation and while the boredom, the anxiety about why they hired me, and the lack of upward potential were all important, the biggest reason I left after three months was that my brain was stagnating. I could tell I was getting lazier and losing my problem solving abilities.

      Mischief managed has some good suggestions for the meantime, but what you describe is pretty extreme and I doubt it’s likely to change much.

      1. miho*

        Eeep, this is what I am afraid of.

        Now that I am thinking about it… One of my interview questions for this job was “What do you do when there’s down time and not a lot of work is assigned to you?” During my first week, one of my supervisors also mentioned that a previous employee would constantly ask for more work, which my supervisor found to be really disruptive.

        The person who held this position before only had it for a short time, then transferred to a different team. The position was then left vacant for a year (if not more), so I really have to wonder why they bothered filling this position at all if the team was surviving just fine for an entire year.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      I had this exact problem (left a high-level, fast-paced position and ended up in something…not), and trust me when I say, you CAN find a better position a year from now – I did. The way I did it was by seeing a need at my old employer (they were missing content for a niche service) and volunteering to fill the gap. I wrote the content and became the subject matter expert for this niche service, and then a year later, I saw a job posting that was looking for someone to write original content and serve as sort of a lead technical editor, which was also what I was doing in my prior position (when my manager had no choice but to give me something to do). I applied to the job, did a writing assessment, and got the job – I’ve been killing it for the last three months in my new role.

      Leverage your self-created projects as much as possible. Make sure your projects are the types of projects that can be useful to another company with the type of role you want to transition into. Yes, you will spend most of your days feeling like your brain is rotting out of your head in your current position (believe me – been there), but you have to push through and keep your eyes on the prize, which is getting the hell out of there. Good luck.

    4. Gidget*

      Similar boat as you. Except I am bored with no tasks, and it’s the “busy” season. I have already done all the planning for next year’s busy season… The additional tasks I do get are simple and I am doing poorly because my brain is actually rotting away and I don’t really care anymore. Also because despite being simple tasks supervisors have weird expectations that they don’t communicate. Now that the busy season is ending I am going to be actively job searching for something else before I lose the rest of my skills. I would recommend you do the same.

  152. T3k*

    When is it ok to start filling out a 2nd page for resumes? I’ve been out of college for about 6 years now and in that time I’ve worked a lot of short term jobs (contracts, laid off, attempted freelancing, etc.) and so I’ve ended up working about 5 different positions at different companies and all entry level, with only my current job and previous somewhat related to the field I want to get into. It’s to the point now though my resume is getting too crowded on one page but I still feel weird about it getting a second page so soon? To compound the issue I have 2 schools under education (bachelors and working on an assoc.) so even when trimmed down it takes up a portion, and I like to include my volunteer work I do for online editing content that actually helped me land a small part time job with them (yep, got to add that to the resume now). Is it ok to start doing a 2nd page, even if it’s just a small overflow of some skills or should I start knocking off the first couple jobs I had out of college?

    1. WellRed*

      You are way too early in your career to start a second page. are there any jobs that are irrelevant? are you accomplishments too long? Are some of those contract positions able to be grouped together? You already have a bachelors, is there any benefit to adding the associate’s, which you don’t have yet, anyway?
      A resume is not an exhaustive list of everything you’ve done

      1. T3k*

        So yeah, none of the previous jobs are really relevant other than to show, hey, I’ve been working since X. The only kicker is because I’ve had so many jobs, if I remove the first 2 I had out of college, it’ll look like a lot of job hopping as I’ve only stayed a year at most at any of them, one at my earliest job and the most recent (though in the industry I’m trying to break into, this is normal to have short term positions at least). Sadly the associate’s degree is more relevant to what I want to do than the bacehlor’s now :(

        1. WellRed*

          So, I see your problem but look. An unwieldy resume does not make you a stronger candidate. It just looks like obfuscation. Curate. Really think about what’s relevant and adds to your candidacy. Ditch everything else, ditch the second school, ditch the volunteer work/part time job unless its super relevant ( doesn’t sound like it is, though). Cut, cut, cut.

            1. T3k*

              Thanks! The (attempted) freelancing was where I did work freelance for a time (think teapot designs) but ultimately it wasn’t panning out well after a year so gave up on that and just went back to working for companies in a less stressful field to me rather than trying to find clients on my own. And the volunteer part is pretty relevant to the field but more in the sense of same industry area than towards the specific career I’m aiming for (though granted, only one of my jobs qualifies if that’s the case, which is probably why I’m having a hard time figuring out what comes off the resume and what stays now that I think about it). I think I’ll trim it down based on where I feel I had a lot of accomplishments instead and that should work, as some literally only have 1 bullet point listed, taking up needless space.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          You don’t necessarily have to get rid of your first two positions – just get rid of the ones you’ve had that don’t add anything to your candidacy when applying to new jobs.

          1. T3k*

            Thanks! I looked through it again and realized there were some jobs on my resume that were nothing more than a side note really so I’ll remove those and that should get it trimmed down :)

    2. Kittens Kittens Kittens*

      Too early, sorry. I’m 38, have run a freelance business and switched career, and am still on one page.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I’m 32 and have two pages – everything is relevant, my accomplishments are impressive, and that’s highlighted by my various promotions. Age has nothing to do with it.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I agree with the suggestions to cut for resumes you submit as part of your applications.

      Do keep a master resume that includes all of what you’re describing, in case that experience becomes relevant some day; it will make customizing your resume easier.

  153. Marketing career ideas?*

    I was hoping for some guidance fro the AAM crowd today about career trajectory.

    I am currently in marketing (marketing coordinator/marketing manager is my title) and find the constant deadlines and stress and wearing of so many hats getting to me. I’d love to transition to something marketing adjacent or related. that I could use transferable skills for. I’ve been applying for communication jobs, but would love some other ideas – perhaps there are other positions I have not thought of!

    I’m also open to getting training/certificate but not sure a masters is in the cards at the moment. But maybe…… Thank you for any ideas!

    1. LQ*

      What about the same job/role but in a different industry? Different industries, or different places within your industry may not be quite the same.

      That said there will be constant deadlines everywhere. I’d guess you’re looking at lots of short turnaround times? Looking to something for longer work might make sense.

      I’d say somewhere larger is generally less likely to have you wearing lots of hats.

      1. Marketing career ideas?*

        Thanks – yes, I have been applying for positions in larger companies in different fields. Not getting much traction because (I think) they are looking for more specialized skill set, while I am a generalist.

        I definitely would prefer to work on bigger projects with longer deadlines.

  154. Kathlynn (Canada)*

    So, I need what to say next help. I texted my boss on the 27th to let him know I couldn’t work this coming monday, because I needed to help my family out. No response, but he doesn’t respond to texts, so what every I figure if he has any questions or such he’ll talk to me. (For some reason he seems to only respond to verbal conversations) Nope. Then I get a look at the schedual (we get one week at a time) and I’m working. I’ve phoned him going “hey I texted you and told you I can’t work” He said he’d see what he could do. Thing is, a) my brother needs me to baby sit, there is no one else who is reliable enough or willing/able to do so. Second, I’ve the right to a maximum of 5 day/year off to take care of family as Family Responsibility Leave. And given the description of immediate family members (including grandchildren) I believe the situation qualifies for me. This would be my first. (it’s part of the labor standards act.). And valid FRL requests can’t be refused
    I just don’t really know how to broach this if he hasn’t changed it, without feeling like I’m coming off as aggressive or hostile. (which is what I feel, angry and anxious)

    1. CM*

      I would call (and ideally leave a message rather than talking to him) and say, “Hey Boss, I wanted to make sure that you were able to update the schedule. As I told you last week, I need to take Monday as a Family Responsibility Leave day and will not be able to come in. Thanks so much.” Take deep breaths before you call so you won’t sound rushed and anxious. In your mind, try to think about it this way: You did the responsible thing by notifying him in advance. You are entitled to take FRL. You are continuing to be responsible by following up. Your boss is not entitled to refuse your request. If he’s angry or unreasonable, that’s on him — you did everything you reasonably could.

      1. Morning reader*

        Depending on how you standardly communicate with him when you’re not in the office, I would do as CM suggests with voicemail, then follow up with email to document. You say he doesn’t respond to texts… are you sure he receives or notices texts? I have observed that some people don’t have phones that make it easy and they never develop the habit. I would never assume someone received information in a text unless they responded.
        Also, consider his verbal communication style. From some people, I think “I’ll see what I can do” and “I’ll take care of it” are roughly equivalent. So it’s probably all OK. But send an email just to be sure and cover your bases in case he also doesn’t remember on Monday.

        1. Kathlynn (Canada)*

          Honestly I generally don’t talk to him outside of work, where we now rarely see each other (retail, I work until 7am, he starts at 8am).but when he contacts me it’s either by text or phone. Though he’s now demanded that I download WhatsApp

    2. LizB*

      Is your workplace one where team members talk among themselves to figure out substitutes/coverage? If so, is there a coworker you could ask to cover or swap shifts? Ideally your boss should do that, but if the normal thing is that team members find their own subs, it might help to get a head start on the process.

      The other thing I’m wondering is, since this is your first time asking for this kind of leave, does your workplace have a specific procedure for requesting it? I’m not familiar with the law (I’m in the US) but I looked it up, and it says you need to give your employer “reasonable notice” — has your company defined what enough notice is, and how you need to submit a request (text vs email vs whatever)? Did you specifically tell your boss this was the type of leave you were asking for? If not, he might just think it was a regular request for a day off. You could go with, “I realized I didn’t ask clearly before — I want to take one of my five days of Family Responsibility Leave on [date]. You have me on the schedule for that day. How can we make sure I can take my leave?”

      Also, I’m sorry you only get your schedule a week at a time — that’s really shitty.

      1. Kathlynn (Canada)*

        There isn’t any proccess for requesting time off, except for holidays. And no notice is required for FRL in my province, it’s just suggested to give as much as possible make coverage easier.
        And yeah, it’s hard to manage with one week at a time, most managers can give at least 2 weeks. The manager he’s subbing for (She’s on mat leave) often had more then a month up at a time.
        And no, I didn’t request it as FRL leave at first, was just clear it was related to helping my family.

    3. Kathlynn (Canada)*

      So to update :he called me back with a barely workable solution. I’m not generally available to work on Sunday, as I take the morning and a bit of the afternoon to help my brother out and look after the eldest child, so she gets some one on one time. Instead I’ll be working graveyards and going straight to their house to nap before babysitting. (I’m going to be exhausted). This is so that I don’t go below 32h/week for full time status.

      1. valentine*

        Tell him you can’t do it (even if you’ve already agreed). Maybe he hoped you’d back out when you saw the schedule; maybe he totally forgot he needed to find coverage. I think he’s the one being (passive-)aggressive and hostile, by punishing you for his dropped ball.

        1. Kathlynn (Canada)*

          I honestly think he did his best to make it impossible to give me the day off. Sadly, at the time of the update I’d already agreed to work Sunday. I will admit that it’s poor timing, since 2 people are out on holidays (one for medical reasons, one taking 2 weeks off as just yearly holidays ), but with the amount of people we have right now, I was able to see at least 3 different ways the schedual could have been made to give me Sunday and Monday off. But then, it’s easier to make the scheduled right the first time, then change it later after you’ve shown it to people.

  155. LQ*

    I’m a very new manager and my only report is out sick. She’s got plenty of leave time and I’ve talked with my boss and she will not at all have to worry about her job or anything like that. But she’s called a couple times…basically to give me a blow by blow of what is happening. I’ve made it clear she doesn’t need to tell me, but she really wants to and she’s super super extroverted and sharey and wants to tell me everything and talk about it for a long time. I’ve been trying to listen enough so it doesn’t seem cold (though I know I’ll appear that way). But I don’t know what else to do with/for her. I’m clearing stuff off her schedule so she doesn’t have to worry about it and staying on top of people who are working with her on stuff and it can all be held for now.

    What else should I be doing for her? I feel like I’m likely missing some giant thing and I’m going to screw up and it’s going to hurt her and I don’t want that.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Why do you think it’s going to hurt her? It’s pretty normal for people to need to use sick days, and it shouldn’t normally be a question of whether they’d need to worry about their jobs!

      The only thing I can think of that you should do is that if she keeps oversharing the details, you could say, “Jane, I’m going to cut you off — I don’t want anyone to ever feel like they have to explain their personal medical details in order to get sick time and even though you’re willing to share now, it’s not a good precedent for the team. Just let me know what time off you need, and that’s it!”

      1. LQ*

        I don’t know…I just feel like it’s a big unknown and since I’m so new it’s likely that I’ll get something wrong.

        To be fair I’m very confident my boss would stop anything I did that would actually be problematic, again I don’t know what that would be…. I don’t even know what that would look like, but I know it would be the thing I’d be worried about, again unfairly, if it were me out sick. (Saying it like this sounds like it’s really about me anxiety and she’ll be fine as long as she’s able to get well.)

        I do think I’ll make sure I’m clear about not needing the details as well. Thank you!

        1. valentine*

          I’ve made it clear she doesn’t need to tell me
          She may interpret this as you not wanting to pry, versus not wanting to hear it. I think you need to tell her not to tell you.

  156. IrishLibriarian*

    I have an interview coming up and things look promising. I just found out that one of my previous references retired and now that I think about it, I’d rather use my department director as a reference instead of my direct supervisor. So I would be submitting an updated reference list with 2 new references- a replacement for the person who retired and swapping out my dept. director instead of my supervisor. I know I can explain the previous employer retiring, but is there any way I can justify switching out my current supervisor for a different reference?

    1. CM*

      I wouldn’t try to explain, just say, “I’ve updated my reference list since I first submitted it to you. Please use this version instead.”

  157. Sneaking In From The Circulation Desk*

    How do ya’ll feel about public apologies to coworkers?

    In my library, we’ve got one coworker, let’s call her Cersei, who’s an enormous flake. Always late to work, late to relieve people from their desk shifts, late to relieve people so they can go to lunch (is there any way to piss off someone faster than to keep them from their food?), late to come back from her own lunch. The boss has talked to Cersei, and so has the big boss, and she’s improved for about a day each time–and then backslid immediately after. Cersei has other, just as serious performance problems, but the lateness will probably be what she’s fired for.

    Now, I know Cersei is likely on the way out because I’m a tiny fraction more senior than my other coworkers–and because I have an in with an even more senior coworker. The thing is, my less senior coworkers don’t know what’s going on, and the boss feels like he has to keep it quiet. So all my less senior coworkers see is Cersei breaking the rules and getting away with it.

    Well, yesterday Cersei REALLY screwed the pooch. She came in late due to a punctured tire (not her fault), called over her coworker Lena to gossip instead of getting to work (definitely her fault), and yelled at her coworker Margaery when Margaery asked Cersei to help with a backed-up line (incredibly her fault). After some more arguing with a pissed-off Margaery, Cersei stormed off, left the library, and didn’t come back.

    Now it’s the next day, and Cersei’s back. All Margaery sees is that Cersei abandoned work for an entire day and started a fight in front of patrons, yet is now back at work with no apparent consequences. Given that my boss feels like he can’t share the info that Cersei’s on her way out, would it make sense to make Cersei give a public apology to her coworkers for abandoning the library and screwing everyone over? Cersei wrecked the schedule and prevented people from working on their projects, because they had to cover Cersei’s shifts. Or would a public apology be too humiliating and punitive for Cersei?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Don’t make her give a public apology; that’s demeaning and probably would be insincere. Plus you don’t want the message to be that you can do what she did, apologize, and all is fine. Instead, your boss should talk with people individually, especially Margaery and anyone who witnessed it, and tell them she sees the issues and she’s handling them.

    2. fposte*

      What do you mean by “public”? She should from a human standpoint apologize to Margaery for yelling at her, but a required apology to the group seems a little…Maoist. (And if somebody has powers of compulsion over Cersei, why waste them on making her apologize instead of making her a better employee?) And what good is a coerced apology to those listening to it anyway?

      This sounds like a desire to fill the vacuum that’s caused by administrative silence on Cersei’s behavior, but that’s admin’s job, not Cersei’s. I know this is a library and probably civil service and the fact that she *walked off the job* will somehow not lose her her job, but admin can still send the message that this behavior is being seen and it’s not acceptable. But ultimately admin and maybe the larger system think that what happens to Cersei’s co-workers is acceptable collateral damage, and I don’t think you can leverage Cersei to change that.

    3. Public service librarian*

      What is the question? Should Cersei make a public apology to the rest of the staff? Should someone make Cersei make a pubic apology? No and no.
      Cersei is begging to be fired. People do that sometimes. You have listed enough in one day that should push the PIP over to an investigation. The supervisor interviews everyone who is impacted by Cersei’s behavior. (this way they know something is happening) documenting each incident, the time, who was affected, how that impacted service, what part of Cercei’s job expectations were not met.
      You can help by writing up this posting on a document for the supervisor.
      That’s it. That’s all.

    4. Sneaking In From The Circulation Desk*

      OP here, and bringing some good news! Cersei gave her two weeks. This was definitely a case of “resign or we fire you,” so I think this will definitely show everyone that there are consequences to wildly unprofessional behavior. This means we’ll be down a worker during an incredibly busy time of the year, but Cersei’s such an energy and time suck that we’ll be better off without her.

      This definitely backs up that there’s no such thing as “can’t be fired.” It may take a while to gather evidence and go through the process, but any employee who screws up badly enough can be made to face the consequences of their actions.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I think it only shows the other staff that there were consequences if they *know* it was resign or be fired. Since it sounds like things were kept quiet about any impending consequences, do they know this now? Otherwise it looks like Cersei chose to leave and behaved badly because she had decided to leave and wasn’t afraid of consequences.

        1. Observer*

          I think most people will realize. Because if there had been no consequences, why would she leave? It’s a sweet deal when you can do whatever you want whenever you want.

    5. FuzzFrogs*

      Oh I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. Your boss needs to get the Cersei situation actually addressed ASAP.

      I agree with Alison–boss needs to do damage control. Publicly disciplining Cersei will just make everyone more uncomfortable–that makes other staff have to participate in Cersei’s discipline, and they don’t want that. (It’s emotionally tempting, but in practice everyone will stare at the ground while Margaery will get to weigh the worth of playing nice versus actually standing up for herself.) Anything public has to come from Cersei actually acknowledging her actions herself or it doesn’t work.

  158. Not Burnt Out Yet, But Smoldering*

    tl;dr moving from people management into office management and dealing with people’s baggage around that?

    My job is burning me out real bad right now. (Childcare manager w/ 20+ part-time direct reports.) I’m covering shifts left and right, getting too many voicemails to respond to, dealing with employee drama and team members leaving and trying to hire but the labor market’s real tight. I’m trying to take things off my plate but it’s sometimes more work up front to take them off than it is to just keep chugging through them. I’ve quit all my activities that happen at specific times (choir, volunteering, D&D) because I can’t commit to being there, and I can’t even quantify the amount of time I spend worrying about whether shifts will get covered, whether my new hires will work out, and all the tasks that I’m just not getting done because there aren’t enough hours in the day. I had dropped to as-needed therapy, but I’m going to probably go back up to twice a month… assuming I don’t have to cover shifts during my appointment times, which is no guarantee.

    I texted a friend who works as an admin/office manager asking if her company was hiring for roles like hers — turns out they are, and also she just heard about a similar job at a cool nonprofit I’d never heard of that’s super up my alley. It’d likely be a bit of a pay cut, but for M-F 9-5? I’d fucking take it at this point. I’m going to throw my hat in the ring and see, but I have a couple of concerns. The first one is I had hoped to stick out this job for 2+ years, since there’s been a bunch of turnover in the role and the team needs stability… but I wasn’t expecting it to take this kind of toll on my mental health. (Gosh, I wonder why there’s been turnover?)

    The second is I feel kind of weird about taking what I think people in my life will consider a step backward, career-wise. Already mentioning it to close friends I’ve gotten a few, “Whoa, that’s quite a career change!” I know I carry some societal baggage about office managers and exec assistants being “secretaries” and that being a low-status position — no matter how much I logically know that those roles are super complex and the people who do them well are rockstars. Has anyone who’s made a similar move dealt with side-eyes from friends and family, or even just their own stigma? I’d love some thoughts.

    1. Jaid*

      You have to look out for you. Your team simply isn’t important enough. The fact that you dropped so many outside activities is concerning, especially therapy.

      Go for that other job. I think you’re burnt out but don’t realize it yet.

      1. Not Burnt Out Yet, But Smoldering*

        You’re probably right. To clarify, I had dropped to as-needed therapy because I was in a super stable place and didn’t feel like I had much to work on, not because of work schedule problems. I’m anticipating it could be difficult to get back to a regular appointment schedule, but my therapist is wonderful and very flexible so we’ll make it work.

  159. Teapot Translator*

    I need some advise for dealing with noise.
    I’m now in a cubicle and we’re in a slow period. I hope that when it picks up, concentration will be easier. But at the moment, even if I try music or white noise, I keep getting distracted by ambient noise. Any tricks that worked for you?

    1. Kathlynn (Canada)*

      Are you using headphones? If so, I’d suggest ones with better noise canceling effects. ear buds can work, or the large ones that cover your entire ear.

  160. Don't Know What To Do*

    On paper I’m in a great spot. My job is prestigious and challenging. I’m learning a ton in many areas. I have a year left of vesting my equity.

    But I am MISERABLE. I regularly cry in the bathroom. My manager is a nightmare and I’m losing confidence in myself everyday.

    I know if I looked around it would be easy for me to find a new job. I’m hesitant because of how much I’m learning, I’m applying to grad school for next fall (so any new job would be just for a year), and I could be walking away from a lot of money in my equity (I know that most companies don’t make it, but mine is more likely to at this point, can’t give more details unfortunately).

    How can I just suck it up? At what point is my happiness and confidence worth a financial loss and throwing away an amazing opportunity?

    1. new kid*

      Not much you’ve said here sounds like an ‘amazing opportunity’ to me. I think the worst thing toxic jobs do is convince us that there’s nothing better out there for us, we’ll just be throwing away all the positives for different negatives somewhere else. NOT TRUE! You can learn a ton in another position that doesn’t make you cry daily (!) Equity can potentially be nice but it can also amount to nothing – why are you willing to take that gamble on an organization that’s made you so miserable?

      Only you can say for sure whether it’s worth it to stick it out with this job right now, but it might be worth trying to reframe how you’re looking at this. Either way, try to be kind to yourself in the process.

    2. designbot*

      TBH if it were me I’d probably hang on for that year to vest. I’d be counting down the months, and trying to limit my emotional investment in the day to day, and focusing on my exciting new future in grad school and beyond.

      1. CM*

        +1 for staying for the money and making an effort to care WAY less — and maybe invest in therapy. But leaving would be a valid choice too.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      This is a *super* super hard call, you have my deepest sympathy. Big money vs mental health is actually not as easy as some people say, especially early in your career when a big hit can mean financial independence for life.

      I see three choices, and I’m not going to recommend which you pick, just give ideas on how to execute:
      1) Stay exactly where you are, doing your current job for current mgr – aka tough it out
      2) Leave the company entirely
      3) Try to change within the company

      1) Separate yourself from the job as much as possible. Switch into ‘cruising’ gear, where you get your work done, then leave and turn off the phone. Do a lot of self-care, including a notebook at home where you write out all the sh..tuff your boss does and the satisfying response you’d give if he weren’t your boss. Also write down all you got done – black and white, don’t let Sh…tuffy Boss gaslight you. Include a count-down timer. Take all your vacation days. Read _Why Does He Do That_. Get a therapist / use the company EAP if there is one. Wishlist for how you’ll use that equity if it vests valuable. Dream up your own business. Your goal: to not be fired before you vest.
      2) I did a 9mo job before grad school, told them it was a temp role in the interview. It worked out ok, esp since the place was pretty toxic. This really isn’t a problem, esp if you’re in any way tech adjacent (based on startups seem to be all tech these days…) . Try to have the job first, and / or save up 3mo living expenses just in case.
      3) Is there any other group within your company that you could do special projects for? That you could be loaned out to? Be *transferred* to? If what Sh…tuffy Boss is doing is harassment, a lot of times HR will transfer you while it’s being investigated. If there’s any other boss at your boss’s level or higher that you’ve worked with, try calling them and asking if there are openings in their depts.

      One friend of mine did #3 and got moved to right under a VP in an independent position. Now, she’s highly skilled / has an MS and the company did NOT want her to leave, and you may not be in the same position, but good employees are hard to find always, and especially right now. Lot of jobs looking for employees.

      The main thing to remember is you have choices. You are in control of you. Sh…tuffy Boss will work hard to make you think that’s not true, but it is. Yeah, the choices may *suck* (lose money vs lose mental health), but they are in the end, your choices to make.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        and ps – friend did leave the company about a year later, as her Sh…tuffy Boss boss continued to cause problems for her. She’s now consulting independently and is much happier. It delayed her long-term plans about 2 years, which has actually given her some new opportunities too.

        Think long-term, and remember that you are the ultimate boss of you.

  161. Coverage Associate*

    Wrapping up week 2 of the infernal billing software slowdown. We had the monthly deadline at 9am Thursday. To their credit, the partners pushed for extra time, but nothing stops for Accounting. So I was up until 3am getting my entries in.

    The real insult to injury was we had our annual billing best practices meeting Wednesday. I interrupted a couple of times. The more than highly recommended work around is a phone app. So I asked the managing partner about reimbursement for use of personal devices. Got a reply inconsistent with state law. Not sure if I will follow up.

  162. Lx in Canada*

    Dear Lord, I hate making phone calls to clients. I always feel so awkward. I know it takes practice, but ugh!! I want to be good now!

    1. 653-CXK*

      You’ve rolled right into a subject closer to my heart. (Please forgive the Rush pun.)

      I’ve never been much of a talker, so phone calls to and from clients are a little bumpy. There are times when I pray that the voicemail gods extend their hand of benevolence and say, “go forth, 653-CXK, leave your message and bask in the joy of not being an awkward fool, tripping over your words!” It is nervewracking as hell and I’m always afraid of getting the bad end of the conversation who snaps when you mangle your words. (Those are the times I politely step out of the conversation, hang up, and then hope whatever splinter that’s up their gluteus maximus loosens soon ;-) )

      Here are a few things that help me get over the anxiety of calling. One, I always have a steno pad handy and write down the number of the person I’m going to call – in case I lose the caller. Two, there’s always going to be the “I don’t know” phase of your conversation, and there is no sin in saying it! “I don’t know – I can find out for you and get back to you” is sincere, and it’s appreciated by most. Three, I’ve always been a doodler, so while I’m talking, I do a few doodles, which also helps reduce my anxiety.

      Don’t worry – soon you’ll be good enough that you won’t be as awkward. Good luck!

  163. Yikes*

    Do I have to interview an internal candidate even though I know I won’t hire them?

    I work for a very, very small non-profit. I’m new but was told when I was hired that some of the people I would be managing applied for my job and that they had “interviewed all of them multiple times so they couldn’t claim we were being unfair” [or something to that effect]. One of my direct reports who applied for the job has behaved bitterly towards me but their work quality also hasn’t been that good. It’s come to the point where a meeting has been planned to effectively put them on a PIP.

    At the same time, I’m hiring for a new position. I’ve gotten a large number of applications for this position, many of which have a lot of impressive and relevant experience. I can be choosey. Direct Report has made it clear to their coworkers that they want this position and that they may quit if they don’t get it, which has made one coworker feel the need to advocate for them.

    Folks, honestly, Direct Report doesn’t have what it takes for this position. It’s significantly different from the one they have now so there is a skill mismatch (which I had observed when trying to give them a chance to take on this sort of work in the past). Plus, their attitude towards me makes me definitely not want to share an office and work closely with them!

    I’m of course willing to coach them in their current position to grow these skills. I’m also 100% okay with them quitting and exploring another option. However, it seems like my workplace has traditionally always interviewed existing employees who applied. Am I committing a faux pas by not? (I still have time to interview them if I should)

    1. Public service librarian*

      I had something similar. First of all, don’t delay on the PIP. Document behavior, attitude, and meeting expectations of the Direct Reports present position. Dates, times, their behavior, your response, all in writing. Contemporaneous notes are best. A quick email from you to your self- subject date and Direct reports initials.
      ASAP make it clear to Direct Report the issues that are troubling with specific examples.
      Language, given these work issues, we will not be interviewing you for this open position.

      If this person was not your direct report then yes you would interview them even if you already know that they are not going to get the position.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’d lean towards interviewing the internal candidate even though you have no intentions of hiring this person. My reasoning is you want to foster an environment that encourages people to shoot for other positions, even if they are a stretch (within reason of course.) It gives the impression that the company is vested in retention and there are opportunities for advancement (if this position would be a promotion.) Yes, this person sounds like they don’t have what it takes but perhaps a situation will arise down the road where a stretch internal candidate turns out to be a great fit. Fwiw.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree with this. Given this person already vents to coworkers, it’s like that the PIP won’t be known to the coworkers but decision to not interview this person would be. Plus it might actually highlight to the person that they aren’t a strong candidate after all.

        It also sounds like there are two types of work – the work this person is currently not doing well (hence the PIP) and the different work needed in the new position, which this person has also not shown aptitude for. The interview would be to give the person the chance to advocate for that new role and also to document that this person is not a good fit for the new position because of lack of skills, poor attitude, or other concerns.

        I’m guessing between not getting your role, the impending PIP, and now not getting the new role, this person will leave and that might be the best outcome for everyone.

    3. LuckyClover*

      My SO’s company will always provide “courtesy interviews” to internal applicants (they have a lot of interns that graduate and apply) even when they know that it won’t be a good fit. Although I always have a weird feeling about that, I think it actually is important to at least give the initial interview. His company takes it too far by bringing them all the way to the final round.

      I want to add that if the direct report has the qualifications for the role, but you know based on experience they aren’t a fit… the externals applying could have the exact same problems and you just don’t have the bias of that experience with them

      tldr: Interview them

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Is there someone else there you can ask for advice? Part of me feels it’s cruel to interview someone for a job you know you won’t offer them. It gets their hopes up and that can make it harder if you need to let them go in the future. “If I was doing so badly, why did they interview me for a new job?” They might wonder, for example.

      Having said that, some places really do interview all internals even if those internals don’t have a snowballs chance in Hades of getting the job. I don’t know a good solution to that, so I might ask someone whose been there longer how to navigate that one.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      I didn’t see this in the responses, but you might want to check your employee handbook to see if Direct Report is even eligible to apply *if s/he is on a PIP.* At my agency, employees facing some kind of “adverse action” (like being on a PIP) are ineligible to apply for a new job within the agency. If your company has such a hiring condition, you may be taking your Direct Report out of the running entirely, thereby making them ineligible to interview in the first place.

  164. Kittens Kittens Kittens*

    When someone is redeveloping a thing you use sometimes that is of huge significance to them and high priority for them and they want to have weekly meetings when all you want to do is use the thing occasionally because using it is necessary but talking about it endlessly is not. I literally don’t know what they would even talk about in all these meetings.

  165. Little Yellow Spider*

    TLDR How do you reverse burnout and take some time for yourself when taking time off just adds to the stress?

    I have worked in the same field for 7 years and have been at my current job for a little over 2 years. I love the work I do and I’m very passionate about my job, but burn out is definitely an issue in my field. For a long time I did very well, but over the past 6 months I have just started to feel like I cant do it anymore. I’m tired and frustrated and sad all the time. I don’t want to quit, I want to make it work, but I’m not sure what to do.

    I’ve read posts on this site about burnout, and I know some of Alison’s advice is to take a vacation of at least 2 weeks. My job never approves that much time off unless it’s for like a medical emergency so I’m not confident it’s even an option, but aside from that my work is such that if I go away for even one day, I have to leave detailed plans, supplies, etc. for everything that has to be done while I’m away. It is a LOT of extra work to get this all done. If I were to go away for a week it would add hours of extra work and staying late (or taking work home) in the days leading up to the vacation. I’m already so stressed and overwhelmed by my job, that the idea of doing even more work seems impossible, I’m already not really getting my work done as it is. I went away for 2 days earlier this summer and almost didn’t get everything done in time because my motivation is just gone. I also am not really able to have most of my work done by someone else and so delegating some things to make the workload less isn’t really an option.

    Additionally, I have a reputation at work for being very optimistic, calm, and on top of things and so I don’t even know if or how to approach the fact that I’m sad and stressed and falling behind this with my boss. I said something recently along the lines of “I’m not really optimistic that we will hear back from them by tomorrow” and my boss said “no, you have to be optimistic! the rest of us depend on you!” I know she’s just joking around, but it does make me feel like I have to keep up this certain level of positivity even though I feel terrible.

    I know that therapy is also frequently recommended, so I do want to mention that I’m already doing that and so far it hasn’t really made a difference.

    1. BeeGee*

      I would consider having an honest talk with your boss, hopefully you can convey it in a serious enough tone that they don’t make light of it. Be honest that you’re feeling stressed with your work load and would like to take a longer vacation so you can come back refreshed. If they are a good manager and truly appreciate your work at the company, they should understand and be at least a little accommodating to retain a good employee. Plus it’s your vacation! It’s a benefit that the company offers and you’re entitled to take advantage of.

      Also it definitely sounds like you need to discuss better policies with your manager on how your tasks get delegated leading up to and during your time off. Maybe more time needs to be set aside for cross training coworkers and clear process guides on recurring tasks should be created so that you don’t have to do too much crazy prep last minute?

      1. Little Yellow Spider*

        It’s probably easiest to just explain my job. I’m a teacher at a children’s psychiatric hospital so in order to take time off I need to have everything prepared and written out; materials/powerpoints/etc. all created in advance and left for a sub. Subs don’t do any planning, and aren’t able to do many other tasks that take up a lot of my work day (there is so much paper work in teaching). Because my students are all at a wide variety of grade levels, it just takes a really long time to plan and prepare for a longer period of time. My classroom assistant is also not allowed/able to do a bunch of tasks, and its not as though I can just delegate my work to other teachers who all have their own classrooms and kids.
        I think that a lot of the burnout is not even due to the amount of work, but just the nature of the work. I’m not a therapist, but I hear a lot of therapists talk about compassion fatigue and I think that’s what’s happening. I do feel like taking some time off would help, but as I said – I’m already struggling to get everything done and doing more feels like an impossible task.

        1. WellRed*

          Ok, but what would they do if you were hit by a bus? How would it get handled. And it would get handled.

    2. designbot*

      If you don’t have the time to take time off or prepare to take time off, your plate is too full. I’d recommend having a serious conversation with your boss about how your naturally optimistic demeanor has been masking some real problems with your job that you’d like to develop a plan to address.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, this. If you can’t take a week off, than you have too much to do. Also, if your therapy isn’t helping than you may want to switch therapists and have a serious conversation with your current therapist about your goals and how you are doing on them. One of the things I’ve learned after years of therapy is that a good therapist will welcome that conversation.

    3. princesswings*

      honestly when she said that, my first thought was “there are jobs where you can take off two whole weeks without being in hospital???” sigh

    4. Sam Foster*

      Do you work in a state that has short-term disability or have you purchased private short-term disability insurance?

      A dear friend of mine just had to do this as a public school teacher. He had to go through his GP and a therapist to help ensure the “burn-out” diagnose was correct and they used his physical symptoms, etc. to justify it so the conversation with his boss was basically “My medical team is recommending this and I need to do this so how do we work together for me to be out for 6 months?”

      It went much better than he expected because they were able get a long term substitute in and he was able to receive an income from his private short term disability.

  166. epi*

    I work in an academic building and my floor is doubly empty right now because new people are moving into most of the offices in my hallway. There is just… Weird energy here lately.

    First, my floor is particularly quiet and as a result it has become several janitors’ favorite place to be when there is nothing to clean. These guys are all very nice but it has gotten seriously weird up here. One person uses our lounge for all of his breaks and naps(!). This lounge is the quickest way to the bathroom from my hallway so I have to risk disturbing the napping guy or reroute several times a day when he is here. Our bathroom is being cleaned multiple times a day for no reason because no one is here. I can’t make my lunch right now because a third person decided 12:30 is the best time to give the kitchenette sink the deep clean it has not really been needing.

    Like (I think) a lot of semi-public university buildings, we also have a problem with people who don’t belong here coming in and wandering around. I work in a shared office, and about an hour ago someone opened my door without knocking. I ignored them thinking it was another grad student, but after a few moments I could hear them just standing in the doorway. I looked up and it was someone I had never seen before who returned my greeting and then just left. Last week someone got into my old office building doing something similar, pretending to be looking for something or someone, and stole my boss’ wallet. So I guess I keep my door locked whenever I go to the bathroom now.

    I know the cleaners in particular are not doing anything wrong and I’m sure it is boring to be assigned to clean an academic building that is mostly not being used. But the current situation is I’m nearly alone, on an empty floor, surrounded by men I don’t know who are just kind of… there… in my way… Every time I need to go anywhere or do anything. It’s stressing me out!

    1. CM*

      That would stress me out too. You could try getting to know the cleaners a bit, so it doesn’t feel like strange men + you. If you’re not up for that, I think the opposite approach, if it’s a possibility in your shared office, would be just holing up in your office and keeping your door locked all the time, so you don’t have to worry about somebody walking in.

      1. valentine*

        If TPTB don’t mind the napping or if you’d be upset if you took that away from someone with struggles that would make you forgive the napping, suggest an alternate space. Otherwise, report the napping. In either case, keep walking through the lounge. Even sleeping cars have foot traffic.

        Ask the kitchen cleaner to avoid your mealtimes or ask what their schedule is. Contact facilities or your supervisor and ask that the cleaning schedule be significantly reduced/changed to weekends/times you’re not there and for the building to be locked at all times.

  167. fogharty*

    I want to take some thank-you treats to some people in another department; normally I’d take cookies or something like that but one of the people has severe diabetes. I’m having trouble finding store bought sugar free cookies (I can’t bake) and was wondering if there were other treat possibilities without it being obvious that I’m singling out the person with the diet restrictions.

    Or should I just bring small pastries and let the one person self-regulate their diet?

    1. OtterB*

      I’m diabetic (though not severe) and would find fancy nuts a nice treat that wouldn’t spike my blood sugar. But that, of course, can run into allergy problems. Another possibility is cheese and crackers. But really, there’s never a solution that works for everyone and I suspect diabetic coworker is used to having to skip office treats.

    2. LuckyClover*

      Since one of the people you are trying to thank is the diabetic, it would be in poor taste to not bring a gift that would be usable by that person as well.

      What about a fruit and nut basket? Edible arrangement? One of those carafes of coffee for groups from starbucks?

      If you can’t identify an appropriate treat – forgo food and do something else to express your gratitude.

      1. fogharty*

        I like the idea of the fruit and nut basket, the coffee gift also.
        There’s not too many people, perhaps a small gift card for each… probably cost about the same as a tray of cookies from Costco.
        Thank you!

      2. New Job So Much Better*

        Fruit is just as bad for diabetics as other sweets. How about a cheese and nut assortment?

        1. OtterB*

          It’s not that everything has to be edible by the diabetic, just that something should be. So a fruit and nut basket gives choices, some of which work.

          1. LuckyClover*

            that was my thought with the suggestion. At least with a fruit/nut/cheese etc there is something on the board the person can eat rather than exclude someone with restrictions entirely.

    3. Yuan Zai*

      A fruit and/or veggie tray generally works for most people. I frequently have to plan office events for a large group of people with a wide variety of food requirements and those are my standard go-tos. I’ve also had success with a beverage bar which can be very simple – grab a to-go carafe from a coffee shop with decent coffee, get some nice tea or teabags, serve with cream and sugar and honey sticks; maybe add some juice and/or sparkling water.

    4. Moray*

      It might not look as classy, but drug stores often have a row of store-brand candy (jelly beans, gum drops, orange slices) alongside sugar-free versions. A selection of those might be nice, especially if you find an attractive way to present them.

      1. LuckyClover*

        People who aren’t well adjusted to sugarfree candies can have major uh. digestive reactions to sugar free candies. So don’t make the whole gift sugarfree if you go that route. I think it would be better for everyone if you chose a treat that is just naturally okay for everyone to eat.

        If you don’t know what I’m talking about: see the Amazon reviews for Sugar Free Haribo Gummy bears on Amazon… its awful.

    5. WellRed*

      Not sure what you mean by severe diabetic. But. Person with type 1 diabetes here. Coffee or nuts or something. I’m used to just ignoring sweet stuff but it can be..lonely. do not buy sugar free sweets. If I want a cookie, I’ll have the real deal. Plus, they are horrible on the gastro system. Fyi, fruit is not bad for people with diabetes. We just don’t overindulge.

      1. Artemesia*

        I had lots of support staff shared with many other people and so at Christmas I tried to buy a small edible treat each could take home. About 20 years when clementines were still a bit of a novelty I gave each of them a small case of clementines and it was probably the favorite thing. Later when I bought everyone a fancy loaf of sweet holiday bread, I bought the support person who is diabetic, clementines again and she really appreciated having something she could eat rather than the cakes and cookies which most people were giving.

      2. fogharty*

        Sorry I’m late to reply, but what I meant by “severe” is that the person had had an amputation because of diabetes.

        That’s how I found out about their diabetes: I was talking to someone else and mentioned I would like to stop by the office and they wanted to forewarn me that since I last saw this person they had this operation and didn’t want me to have an “OMG what happened!” reaction.

  168. Oaktree*

    So a job opportunity has come up for me, but I don’t know if I want to go further with it. Here’s the Cole’s notes:

    1) I’m five months into Job A (but I’ve been at my org for 2+ years). I like things about my job, but it’s not something I’m ultimately passionate about. It is in my field, has been and will be great experience (I”m early career), and has excellent benefits.

    2) This other job, Job B, is tailored for me- it requires a set of very niche and disparate skills (a specific professional degree, which I have, and some proficiency in an obscure language, which I also have). It’s in a subject/field I am truly passionate about. I’ve had a successful phone interview and they want to have a second interview next week.

    3) The problem is that Job B is in another country. It’s a country I have citizenship in, which helps. But I do not want to move to this country and uproot my entire life and leave my partner (who can’t work in that country yet for assorted reasons). I’ve also lived in the place where Job B is located before, when I had an internship at Job B’s org. I hated living there and the thought of moving back, even for this amazing unique opportunity, fills me with dread.

    4) On the other hand, how could I pass this opportunity up if I were offered the job? The changes of something like that coming up again are probably 1 in 800 or something. But I really, truly, do not want to pick up my life and move. (Also, I’d be moving from a country with universal health care to a country with a notoriously dystopian healthcare system, and I require multiple prescription drugs.)

    Any advice? I’m getting ahead of myself here, as I haven’t even had the second interview (let alone an offer), but I like my chances and I don’t know what to do.

    1. OtterB*

      If the idea of moving to the location of Job B fills you with well-informed dread, then it’s probably not the right job for you.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 The job is only 40 hrs of your week, you’ll have another 120+ to deal with. Look for ways to bring your passionate interest into your current job or hobbies instead.

      2. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

        +1 I’d hold out for that 1 in 800 chance. Having a “great” job but a crap life is not worth it, especially because the job could turn out to be just ok or terrible once you start

      3. NJBi*

        +1 If you’re looking for permission to turn down what seems like a “once in a lifetime” opportunity, you’ve got it from the commentariat here. It’s not the perfect job if it’s located in a place that you know you’d hate, where the rest of your life outside of work would suffer tremendously! Hang onto the hope for a similar opportunity–not necessarily similar in terms of lining up on skills/position, but similar in that you’d love doing the work and feel passionate about it.

    2. Alex*

      I wouldn’t do it. If you know you hate the location, that’s going to inform your experience of the job. And you’d have to leave your partner. And your healthcare. No, this doesn’t sound like a good move for you at all.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      If you were offered Job B, I’d ask if it was possible to work remotely, that way you wouldn’t have to move to a country you hate. If they say no, then you could write them off. But have the conversation first.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Agree, don’t take the job if you have to move. 1 in 800 isn’t that terrible, probability-wise.

        Also, would you be willing to travel/work there part-time (i.e. one week out of every eight)? That might make the remote work more palatable to the organization.

        1. Oaktree*

          I’d do it remotely (though that would likely be impossible due to the physical nature of some of the work), but I can’t see how I could afford to travel there that frequently (plane tickets cost money, and maintaining a separate residence would as well), nor could they subsidize that, as they’re a non-profit.

  169. Anon Today*

    It’s one week past the day I was told I would hear something about next steps in an interview process. After three rounds so far, one more to go in their process.

    I sent one follow-up email today, per Allison’s standards and consulting her suggested text. We’ll see what (if anything) happens.

    Trying my best to get my expectations aligned to reality, but generally feeling sad about the whole thing. The job itself sounded really good, and I’m also really desirous of leaving where I am now.

    Just needed to write this out somewhere. Onward!

  170. Exhausted Trope*

    Filled out an online job application yesterday. All seemed normal until I was asked for my birthdate, month, day AND year. I’ve not seen this question on an application in many years and thought that this was a violation of EEOC regulations.
    Is this a legal question? I know that companies can’t discriminate on the basis of age but can they still ask during the hiring process?
    FWIIW, this was for a position in the hospitality industry in a nationwide company in the US.

    1. Antilles*

      Legally, they’re allowed to ask. However, they cannot consider it as part of the hiring process, so there’s no real point in even asking the question so most companies don’t.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Sometimes, companies have to hire people over a specific age (ie: 21) for some legal reason. So, sometimes they ask for that reason. Age discrimination only kicks in, as I understand it, for workers over 55. For example, I had a job where I had to drive a state owned van in college and due to regulations involving driving, we couldn’t hire anyone under the age of 19. So, we always asked, because a valid drivers license could be acquired at age 16 and we needed more than that.

  171. But Make It Data*

    Posted in last week’s thread about how I’m leaving my job at the end of this month and that the position is changing, but that the org hasn’t informed my replacement of those changes. I voiced my concern to grandboss, who asked boss (and boss is leaving before I am), and they ultimately decided they aren’t going to tell my replacement about the changes. I think this is a bit of a bait and switch.

    I’m flipping back and forth between “I’ll be gone soon anyway, not my monkeys” and “this whole thing is going to fall apart unless my work goes smoothly in the next month!” Combine that with the fact that I’ll be onboarding this new person by myself and I’m feeling very stuck on next steps. Do I let it go? Do I try to use my little bit of social capital to convince grandboss to talk to my replacement?

    1. TheOtherLiz*

      You made your case, and did what you could. But now it is not your problem. You can’t invest more in the success of an organization you’re leaving than the people running the place. What you can do is ask them what they would like you to train your replacement on, exactly, so that you have that clarity!

  172. SecondChoice*

    Hi all!

    After being out of work (due to a layoff) for about 6 months, I am finally working again…. on a contract basis. I’m working for a somewhat well-known company, in a good industry, and I’d like to include this update on my LinkedIN profile, but I’m not quite sure how to do so. I’m on a six month contract as a Llama Groomer, working for Company A, being payrolled via Staffing Firm B. (And who knows, the contract might get extended, etc.) Any suggestions?

    1. WellRed*

      Are you asking if you can list the company rather than the staffing agency? I would, just be clear it’s contract.

      1. SecondChoice*

        Yes, exactly – how do I list the role, without being untruthful that I’m not actually working *for* Company A? But just listing the staffing agency name isn’t going to have the same “oomph.” So for example, would I say:

        Company A
        Llama Groomer – contract position via Staffing Firm B

        … Or something like that?

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Yep, that’s exactly what I do with mine. I got hired on permanently into a different role, so it’s all under one company heading, but:

          Teapots Unlimited // Metropolis, USA
          July 2014 – current
          Teapot Design Team Lead
          *stuff and things

          January 2014 – July 2014
          Teapot Glazer (contracted through Hot Drinks R Us)
          *things and stuff

  173. LuckyClover*

    Due to a newly diagnosed medical issue my doctor has advised me to completely cut many things from my diet – including caffeine. Now, I never felt like I had a major problem, but did rely on my one cup in the morning. Today is my first day off coffee, I substituted tea instead (although I have to cut out caffeine entirely for the most part I figured I need to wean myself down). GUYS I AM IN SUCH A FOG. I haven’t accomplished much and I feel terrible. I am not falling behind on deadlines, but I am struggling to drag myself through the day.
    1. Any advice on how to deal with this
    2. Do I tell my boss preemptively or hope I get over it quickly

    1. Overeducated*

      That’s tough. But it will get better over time, just try to survive the next 2-3 weeks. I wouldn’t tell your boss yet, you’ll adapt.

    2. Morning reader*

      I’ve given it up a few times before. With cold turkey it lasts about three days, headaches, fogginess, general malaise. Drink plenty of fluids and take your preferred headache treatment (in the morning before it starts.) if it’s really bad you might want to use sick time.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Weaning yourself down helps with the most critical symptoms (splitting headaches IME) but it might prolong the lower level symptoms like the brain fog. It’s probably your best option though. I’ve given up caffeine a dozen times and I’ve never found a good strategy other than power through. But do learn from my mistake – if you use a painkiller to help with caffeine withdrawal headaches, make sure it does not have caffeine as a main ingredient! Most of them don’t but one definitely does.

        If you get the sense that your boss might be sympathetic or you have a good rapport, an off hand comment referring to caffeine withdrawal might help cut any perceived tension.

        Good luck!

    3. Peaches*

      I know it’s tough, but the best advice I have is just to power through it and give it some time. I gave up caffeine about 6 months ago and had massive headaches every day for about the first 1.5-2 weeks. It gets better, I promise! I wouldn’t mention it to your boss just yet unless it doesn’t get better over the next few weeks.

      Also, if you have an office job, I would recommend getting up from your desk every so often to stretch and walk around. I find that helps me refocus. I just go to our break room and walk around for a few minutes every hour. Hope that helps!

    4. Jennie*

      I decided to give up coffee in the afternoons to help me sleep better at night. I found lying to myself about decaf coffee (calling it regular) and drinking hot herbal tea helps some of the psychosomatic symptions I have.

      1. LuckyClover*

        My medical condition also requires me to cut our decaf (caffeine is one bad thing, acid is the other)

    5. Cloudy with sunny breaks*

      If you cut a bunch of things from your diet your body is likely recalibrating, so it could be more than just the lack of caffeine. Give it a week or so and drink lots of water. It will give you something to reach for that is not coffee and might require more trips to the bathroom which will give you a mini break. You can do it, good luck!!

    6. Una*

      Ugh, you have my sympathies. Splashing very cold water on your face is deeply unpleasant but definitely wakes you up and makes you much more alert. It’s what I turn to when I can’t have caffeine or the caffeine isn’t working well enough.

  174. Gatomon*

    I’m not sure what to make of what’s been going on at my employer, and I’m wondering if it’s worth raising to management to see if there’s more information. Since the beginning of the year, there have been a number of sudden shake-ups:

    – Elimination of marketing VP, merger of marketing with sales and onboarding of a new VP of a “strategy” department (there’s no one else in this department just the new person I think).
    – Pulling several employees from a subsidiary into the main company. (Subsidiary is on death watch, but the main company is profitable.)
    – Elimination of head marketing position and roll out of a “marketing by committee” strategy. The only other member of marketing survived but now their job is to liason with a bunch of ad-hoc committees within the company to develop products and services.
    – New mandate to not only track actual hours worked for exempt employees, but also to track task categories. Like a desk audit that never ends, basically.
    – Restructure of internal IT department and elimination of a position/employee.
    – Restructure of finance department.
    – Restructure of sales and layoff of 1/3 that department.

    We’re <200 people still with a lot of long-term employees, so even the loss of a few people is significant. It seems pretty obvious there's a cost-cutting/restructure going on, but no one has ever said anything that effect officially. My company isn't exactly great at communication, but still. I'm starting to wonder where it will strike next. Nothing has affected me directly, but my team works pretty closely with sales and all we got was a company intranet post that didn't even mention who was actually let go. All the pending sales opportunities were quietly reassigned so I'm literally opening them up to see who the sales rep is now.

    A lot of this has been announced by that new VP so I'm beginning to suspect their job is actually to cut jobs and not help us with our external competitive strategy. I am not too worried about my department/job – we are very central to the business and difficult to replace. It's very hard to find people with even related experience in our area, and harder to attract qualified people from out of state for the wage and cost of living. But I think it would be nice to know if one of these restructures/layoffs is going to come to our department.

    Then again, I don't really want to 'stick out' if a restructure/layoff is coming my way… What would you do? Ask about the obvious, or just keep your head down and keep working?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Jobsearch while seeing which way the wind blows. You don’t have to take any jobs you’re offered, but you don’t want to be starting from scratch if stuff starts to go bad in a hurry.

      1. Gatomon*

        I’ll keep my eyes peeled, but equivalent jobs are not common and would likely require moving, so I don’t really want to spend time on applications when I’m not willing to travel to do any interviews at this time. I really like this job/employer, I just wonder what is going on. :(

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I think it’s futile to “raise to management” since if there was anything they’d voluntarily communicate to you and others.. they would have done that already. So if management are aware of any unfavorable changes, I don’t think they would be able to tell you.

      Merging of sales/marketing is fairly common in my experience though.

      Sounds like the subsidary may be about to be laid off other than the select few..

      I think you are right that the new VP is actually in charge of cost/headcount-cutting.

      I’d start looking around (externally).

      1. Gatomon*

        Fair point, I suppose they wouldn’t tell me if we were all about to be laid off! I guess I will just keep quiet and see what unfolds. I’ll keep an eye out but I hope that my department would be spared.

        I hate the idea of there being an entire VP dedicated to cutting people’s jobs. Feels a little Dilbert-eqse.

    3. Artemesia*

      I ignored the handwriting on the wall to my ultimate pain; these changes are red flags that should have you looking for another job. You don’t have to take one if it isn’t better or if things turn around, but you will be glad you are one of the people that figured it out and moved early if things go badly. When things go cattywhampus your peers will flood the local market — how good you will feel if you got to high ground before the tsunami hits.

  175. TechWorker*

    Not a question so much as an update – I’ve had a different manager around as my ‘management mentor’ for the last couple of months (my own manager is great but overloaded) and his advice has made a *massive* different to my enjoyment of the work (and to be honest my own mental health!). This week I had to say no to someone but actually had the right information to be able to justify why something else was going to take priority and their deadline couldn’t be met, and it worked like an absolute charm – it was accepted right away with no guilt on my part. I still have some way to go but I’m feeling so much happier and more confident in my role.

  176. ArtK*

    Questions about an introductory bio. My new boss has asked for one to introduce me to the team. I’ll be remote, so some of the usual social interaction isn’t going to happen. What would you like or absolutely dislike in such an intro?

    One other things: First person or third person>

    2. new kid*

      At our company it’s typically 2-4 sentences about previous work history/education background + 1 sentence about hobbies or similar, eg.

      [New coworker] joins us from [previous job] where she [did really cool stuff]. She also [did some other stuff at other places]. She has a degree in [subject area] from [school]. She enjoys [gardening/hiking/other generic and unoffensive hobby] and [similarly unoffensive hobby]. Welcome [new coworker]!

      Sometimes people get a little bit more unique or creative (especially with the one more personal line) but those tend to be social folks that actually want people to talk to them about those things or use them as potential ice breakers, in my experience.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I would write it in the first person and the new boss could ‘translate’ it into third person if deemed appropriate.

      I’d write something like…

      I joined T-Pots Inc as a Teapot Designer from Coffee Pods R Us where I was a Senior Teapot Painter and I’m excited to make the transition into teapot design.
      I studied Teapot Spout Attachment at University of X and then worked through various different positions in the Teapot industry.
      I love dogs, sailing, books about the 17th Century (or whatever).
      I’m really excited to ‘meet’ and work with you all!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I’d go with 3rd person since it sounds like your boss is planning to introduce you during a meeting, rather than have you introduce yourself.

        The generic format I’ve seen:
        Work – direct experience first and then any previous experience
        Education, industry affiliations – this is probably industry and field dependent
        Personal – family, hobbies, an interesting fact or two (options)
        Photo (if using powerpoint, also optional but can be helpful since you’re remote)

  177. Redhead in NY*

    Can anyone link me the questions that were asked related to doing work activities when you don’t want to? Specifically ones where you are doing something physical and you don’t want to join. Can’t seem to find them!

  178. coffeetime*

    I have a low stakes question but one that has been nagging me. I’m starting a new job next month. I get a little anxious meeting new people and want to make a good/friendly first impression to my coworkers. I’d like to ask coworkers individually to grab a coffee with me and chat…. but I don’t drink coffee or tea. If someone asked you to go grab a coffee and then got something different would it seem strange to you? I don’t know why but I’m feeling very self-conscious about it! Any other new coworker tips appreciated too.

    1. Sara*

      Not at all! Coffee is a super generic term for ‘a hot beverage’ and I don’t think it sets up any expectation to call it that. When I first started a new job, I kept candy by my desk so when people stopped by I got to talk to them a little. Unless that’s not the culture, I’d feel that one out :)

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t drink coffee, but when I “ask people to coffee” I usually get tea or a soda and let them get coffee. I think “asking someone to coffee” is really just code for- sit down, have a casual chat and drink something. I also sometimes ask new people if they’d like to go for a walk (there’s a really nice walking trail right next to my work and I often walk for a loop at lunch) or just ask them about weekends and such. You can do this! I know it can be scary.

    3. Peaches*

      Don’t feel self conscious! I wouldn’t think anything of it. I think of “let’s grab coffee” as just a generic term to get together at what’s traditionally known as a coffee shop (but also has other things). I “grab coffee” with a friend of mine often, and she never gets coffee, and instead usually gets a smoothie. I’ve never given it a second thought!

    4. Gilmore67*

      I am not sure I would like a new co-worker asking me to go out for a coffee ( or pop or whatever ) to start with. Especially if you are doing it individually as you stated above.

      I mean are you just asking them out of the blue? Is it kinda like,.. ” Hi, I am new. Lets go out for coffee and chat to get to know each other”? Maybe I am not understanding what you mean.

      No one, you , them has had enough time to get to know one another to go that far yet. They all can have other commitments, kids, classes and so on. They might feel funny when you ask them and feel bad saying no.

      I would just stick to basic office chat, getting to know you stuff on a break/lunch time. That way you get to know them and their lives a little bit more.

      If you click with one in particular then sure, ask them if they want to go to wherever and just order what you want. Just designate the location not the beverage.

      1. Peaches*

        I’m guessing she means she’d like to grab a coffee over lunch, rather than grab a coffee outside of work hours with her new coworkers. I might be wrong, but that was how I interpreted it.

        1. Gilmore67*

          Yeah, it’s Friday.. I was at work at 6am. That is why I questioned myself !!

          Either way…. OP… you will be fine. Just get to know them and I am sure some will love to go and chat with you.

          1. coffeetime*

            Thanks! Yes I’m definitely thinking during office hours on lunch or break. It’s a pretty open floor plan with shared cubicles (yuck) so chatting too much *in* the office is bound to annoy someone

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Reminds me of when my now partner asked me out the first time. He said “Do you want to grab a coffee/tea/beer/juice, you know a beverage with me?” I thought it was sweet/endearing since he didn’t know if I’d take him literal and be all “Don’t drink coffee bro, byeeeeeeeeee.” :P [That also kept it open to be evening or day as well of course, asking for a happy hour is a little much for new-job bonding though, so yeah, beverage it is!]

      So I would ask them if they’d like to take a “Beverage/snack break” with you if you want to make it less awkward to say “coffee” and then not drink coffee.

      It’s only strange if you ask them if they want to “Get whatever” with you and then you go and dont’ get anything at all. If you say “Coffee” but decide that OJ is better at the moment, cool! It doesn’t register most of the time. But just saying “Hey you wanna grab a drink?” and then don’t drink of any kind or a snack at least, awkward city.

      1. coffeetime*

        Thanks! Yes I would be sure to get something and not just stare at them drinking haha

  179. Sara*

    Hi all,

    What exactly constitutes a job hopper? I’m 25 and on my second full time job which I actively dislike. I work as an EA in Finance, and my last job was an office assistant for an accounting firm. This last job was abusive and I was harassed regularly, so I got out after 1 year and 9 months.

    This new job I dislike for more basic reasons. I’m being massively underpaid for my field in my city, it’s a poor fit culture wise, and honestly I just dislike working in finance. My dream would be to EA for a creative or non profit area. It’s not terrible, but it’s demoralizing here, and I do more work than most of the assistants here for less $. I’ve been here 7 months as a temp receptionist through an agency, was hired to EA full time and have been working for another 7 months. I want to quit in December/January, but this will bring me up to 1 year full time, 1 year 7 months with temp work.

    The job before I moved to this city I had for 10 months, but it was part time and I quit to move.

    Is this a red flag should I choose to move forward with it? Does this seem like the start of a pattern that would be alarming to employers?

    Thank you all <3

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Hmmm… I tend to assume if I take a job then I am committing for two years. Given how long it will take you to find a job, I wouldn’t worry too much about leaving your current spot, because by the time you find something you’ll probably be two years in. I would say that your next place, you need to stay for at least three or more years, because I think having too many short stays would look odd on your resume. Of course, I also am in a totally different field, so your mileage may vary.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      To be blunt: yes, this looks like the start of a pattern. I’d be a cautious (or at least, curious) about an applicant with those dates on their resume.

      Here’s why: the job you have now, which you dislike for “basic” reasons? Why did you take it? How can I, as a hiring manager, trust that you’ve done your due diligence when considering the job I’m offering when you didn’t do so before?

      I’d be upfront about your reasons for leaving (and be sure to connect that to why you think the new roles to which you apply are a good fit).

      1. Sara*

        Hi Lucette! I took it in the middle of a lot of hiring changes. By the time things evened out, it settled into a very different place than where I’d originally been hired. I’m not entirely sure how to phrase that though in an explanation. I was very green when I took this job, and had just come from a situation that warped my view of what normal was and now that I better understand norms I see the flags from earlier for what they are.

        This of course, I can’t say to a hiring manager or convey in a resume. I’ll hopefully stick it out, but if push comes to shove, any tips on how to say this without sounding like I’m throwing the company under the bus?

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          It really depends on the jobs/fields you’re interviewing for. Ideally, you’d be able to say something like this: “I was hoping that I’d stay several years at Current Job, but I’ve realized that finance just isn’t for me. That’s why I’m so excited about this opportunity — I’ll be able to bring my skills in XYZ to a [field/organization/role] that’s more in alignment with [my interests/my values/my work style/etc.]

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on your field. If you’re going to stay in accounting/finance, then those are short stints that will come across as job hopping. In industries that are on a cycle like accounting, you need a full year to even get all the pieces together to start building your complete experience in most cases.

      However you’re trying to get out of that area, so it may not matter to other industries so much! However these are also your first couple of jobs, so I’d really just look to make sure you want to stay where you land next.

      You’ll see above a comment about how a lot of administrative assistant positions are now asking for industry specific experience. So you really want to get out there and look for your options, worse case they don’t call you in.

      1. Sara*

        Thanks for the reply! I want to get into EA-ing for talent agencies and production companies, and for them turnover is fairly high. There’s little expectation that the EA stays on for more than two years, since they’re usually trying to be a writer or a talent agent. I have friends in the industry who don’t seem to think it would matter too much, but I still feel as though the dates above look kind of bad.

        Maybe I should stick it out to make it a full two years :/

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I wouldn’t worry about it if that’s the norm in the new industry, the hiring managers probably won’t care either way since they know they burn through bodies so fast after all.

          There are industries that are looking for somewhat steady admins and then there are the ones like that that just need the extra set of hands and assume people will accept hands on learning situations to get their feet in the door to the agency!

          But I would stay a little while on your end only because if you get there and you hate it and decide you actually miss the other industry, it’ll be harder to break back into because of the short stints.

          The thing with job hopping is two fold. One it looks like you’re restless or it looks like you’re not good at the job, so you’re pushed out of it. Just to give some kind of insight in that direction. That’s what the flags say myself and the people I know personally at least. It’s not so much that I want you to die our EA or something, lol. But when it’s all lateral moves, that’s a sign as well. It would be totally fine if you advanced to another role, in the way that you described for talent & production. Then a year as an EA and a promotion to agent is a good look to have!

          Being a career admin is never a bad thing but if that were the route you’re looking at, then you certainly do what to show some kind of steadiness of course.

  180. Numeral XIV*

    For the analysts in here, what advice would you give to a total newbie who wants to break into the field? I graduated with a Biology degree without any research experience but had postions where data entry and light statistics/data manipulation were my favorite parts. I want to keep working with spreadsheets and numbers so I was thinking of applying to entry data positions and learn advanced Excel and python coding using coursera in the meantime. Would this be a decent plan?

    1. SilverBunny*

      Learn SQL and T-SQL or PL/SQL, they will be your new best friend. As a data analyst the program you use means nothing if you can’t retrieve, merge, and manipulate data. Excel is nice to know, but even non-data analysts can use it, you have to set yourself apart from non tech employees who are just good at Excel. First learn SQL, then try T-SQL (it is an easy database programming language), and lastly Python or R.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I agree with SilverBunny if you’re going into 90% of data analyst positions (i.e. those that will be lucrative).

      If you’re looking to stay in the biological sciences in some capacity (e.g. environmental consulting, sustainability), in my limited experience (one organization, 5+ years now), Excel is what is used and it’s rare that anyone is open to learning more sophisticated software. And there’s concerns about maintaining the system after someone leaves, so Excel may be what you’re limited to.

      Also, data analyst positions in biological/environmental sciences are…not lucrative, relatively speaking.

  181. Xena the Warrior House Huntress*

    Hubs and I are in the throes of house hunting. Given we live in a very high COL area, the houses we’ve found with square footage we need/what we like are, respectively:
    1h5 min from my workplace (small brick house, 9 min to metro then single metro line to DC)
    1h15 min from my workplace (end lot, similar deal)
    1h26-28 min from my workplace. (larger vinyl exterior houses, 18 min bus plus Shady Grove station to DC).

    Current commute: 50 min to DC (decent) plus we get 1-2 days telework.
    If I want bigger square footage, my commute gets more horrendous.
    If I want a less crazy commute, I get a smaller house.

    There seems no in between. Meeting with realtor this weekend. Can anyone commiserate? We nixed the houses requiring 2 bus transfers plus metro SG to DC. We did keep a couple of MARC train ones as they’re walkable to the station…..
    1. Amt of time of your car-free DC commute?
    2. How many bus transfers?
    3. Lessons learned/things to avoid?

    1. Xena the Warrior House Huntress*

      *Hubs has a car and has a 28 min commute
      *I’m worried about this commute if I get pregnant sometime in the near/distant future (28 bus stops/20 min bus ride *plus* a 50 min metro ride?)

      1. Overeducated*

        *Plus* childcare pickup! Mine adds 20-30 minutes to my bike/metro/bus commute depending on mode of transit. If you don’t have a nanny it can be hard to find day care super close to home given waiting lists in this area, and you might not want to bring a baby on a commute that long to work. So it’s reasonable to be cautious.

    2. Overeducated*

      I’d go for one of the first two, I think you can soak up the difference between 50 minutes and an hour 5, but the third option is basically doubling your commute and you WILL notice that. Can you make the 9 minute trip to metro without relying on a bus (e.g. bikeshare or car) or is a transfer necessary regardless? Every transfer makes it worse, because with a metro transfer you have up to an 8 minute wait and with bus transfers it can be 20.

      I know what you mean about there being no in between, though, so I can definitely commiserate. We were going to go from apartment to house this spring, so a pretty massive change in square footage, but got cold feet in small part because I wasn’t ready to move further out and lose my bike commute option (which cuts 20-30 minutes off of taking metro and/or bus).

    3. Mischief Managed*

      Oof, I can relate. I want to move in with my boyfriend without our current roommate, but then we’d have to move from our place which three metro stops away from DC.
      1. 25-55 minutes (depending on if I bike, take the metro or take the bus)
      2. None, the days I do take the bus it’s a 50-55 minute ride to the last stop of the line.
      3. Compromise; unfortunately I’ve learned that you’re never going to get anything you want out of a house.
      It sounds like you’re focusing on one part of the DMV. Have you considered the other state? I know the blue and yellow lines are a mess right now, but you have have better luck with places nearer to the orange and silver.

      But whenever I feel bad about not being able to leave our roommate, I think about one of my friends. She is sharing a house with five other roommates and three of them have boyfriends who frequently stay over. They live in a three bedroom house. One bathroom.

    4. TheOtherLiz*

      Ahhhhh, DC. I commiserate. For my spouse and I, buying a home is not in the cards because of the overpriced market here. You are right to focus on the single bus or single metro line. My commute from within DC requires two metro lines, and takes me as long as a coworker commuting downtown from SHADY GROVE.

      The bus routes you want to live on are the ones that come so frequently during rush hour, you don’t need to check NextBus – like the 42/43, the S buses. These require less planning and make you late less often.

      Also consider the costs of childcare – I know in DC, daycare and nannyshares jump in cost west of Rock Creek Park.

      The thing that’s stopped me from going outside DC for square footage: if I leave DC and have a spacious place and a garden, I’ll actually be around less to enjoy it, and my friends in the city won’t come out often, so I won’t get to host people as much as I do now. Those are just MY tradeoffs though.

      Overall: it is a lose lose situation here, thanks developers!!!

    5. Luisa*

      Can’t relate on DC specifically, but I feel your pain from my HCOL metro area. I have a 45-minute commute to a job where I am miserable, but I’m trying to figure out if a longer commute (like, double, probably) to a job I like more would just be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    6. I hate the offseason.*

      If this isn’t going to be your final home (planning on moving at a later date), I’d pick the one nearest Metro. They seem to keep their value, even if housing prices dip (like 2008). We bought in 2006 (another hot market), and didn’t take much of a hit when things crashed in 2008. Things are really nuts now (2 of my neighbors sold in the last 2 months, and I am shocked at how much they got (Alexandria). Location, location, location. Also, consider school districts if you are going to stay there a while after you have kids. That makes a difference to house shoppers as well.

  182. Government Jobs*

    How long did it take you to get hired for a city, county, state government job? I am STILL under next level review and it has been 30 days. I have heard a horror story from a friend that they applied to a government job and it took 4 months until they heard back for a first phone interview. By then, they were working another job.

    I have heard from another friend that they were hired in less than a month in a government job though! What is your experience?

    1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      I don’t know where you are, but a couple years ago I did an interview for an internship at a state government agency in a midwestern US state, and they said that due to unionization, the hiring process for permanent positions takes….(drum roll)….at least a year.

    2. Finally a Fed*

      This is really variable not just by agency but even by individual sites/HR staff. The first time I was hired it took three months just to find out I’d passed the initial resume screening. Total time to hiring was almost 6 months I think. I’m in the process now and it took 2 weeks from job closing to an interview request which was scheduled within 2 weeks of that. Now I’m just waiting for their decision – but after the decision I would expect less than a month, but only a standard background check is required.

    3. LuckyClover*

      I applied in May
      Interviewed august 23rd
      Hired September – background check took a while
      Started October 16th

      Good luck!

  183. Orange You Glad*

    I know there has been a lot of talk in the past about gifting at work (gifting down, not up) but here’s a situation that presented itself today:
    I have a temporary intern for the summer and today is his last day. This morning he stopped by my desk with card for me, I said thank you and he went back to his desk to work. I’ve had other employees give me a thank you card when their employment ended in the past so I didn’t think much of it.
    Now I got around to opening the card and see he gave me a $25 gift card. I feel uncomfortable about this for many reasons (1. I’m his manager 2. My salary is multi times higher than his 3. He wasn’t a great employee so I didn’t plan to offer myself as a reference for him in the future and 4. I ended his internship early due to some of the issues that didn’t make him a great employee). I feel like just a “thank you let’s keep in touch” would have been the appropriate way to end this relationship. I’m thinking I should just donate the gift card somewhere.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      I think you could give the gift card back to him with a ‘Thank you so much for the card. I can’t accept gift cards – it would be inappropriate for your boss to get money from you.’

      1. Orange You Glad*

        Unfortunately he’s gone for good now. I think the dollar amount is too low for me to track him down at his home address to return it but too high to keep. I might offer it up to the team to split on lunch or something.

      2. Luisa*

        I agree with this. I think donating it is a good idea, too, but I think returning it with this explanation will reduce awkwardness/bad feelings if/when you have to actively decline to be a reference in the future. (This is not to say that you would or should feel any negative feelings, because it’s clear that you have reasons for declining to recommend this person! But I think not returning it under the circumstances might read as weird.)

        1. Luisa*

          Oh, missed your comment above. Yes, I think donating it or using it for your team would be your best bet, then.

    3. LuckyClover*

      no you need to return it to him. Reach out and send it by mail. Do not spend his money. Or else you can cause a lot of misunderstandings if he wants a reference from you in the future. I repeat: do not spend his money

      If it was a $5 gift card I would agree (maybe) but $25 is wayyy to much. You have to send it back.

      1. valentine*

        no you need to return it to him. Reach out and send it by mail. Do not spend his money. Or else you can cause a lot of misunderstandings if he wants a reference from you in the future.
        Yes. And I think it will bother you when he wants a reference or something else. You’ll feel guilty and it’s not like you’re going to tell him you donated it, any more than you plan to tell him you can’t give him a good reference.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What kind of gift card is it? Can you buy donuts for the team with it? [Assuming it’s like a VISA giftcard] or if you have a small team, a round of drinks if it’s a Starbucks card? Do you ever gift at work, like for special occasions? Could you give it to the next person who has a birthday? [It all depends on your team size of course!]

      Absolutely re-home the wayward gift. He’s probably just out of touch to be honest and he thought it was a nice parting of ways. It also feels funny for some folks to give just a card and nothing inside, so that could be his situation.

      Honestly though, I encourage everyone to stop thinking about “I make so much more.” He could have family money or squirreled away all his money as a kid into savings. You really do not know what his actual financial situation is. Don’t assume it’s fantastic but don’t assume that he’s overspending or he couldn’t afford it, etc. Try not to focus on the amount in that sense, everyone values money differently. I have never thought of giving $25 as particularly generous, I give it to kids who are asking for donations for their school events without thinking, even before I made an extra comfortable wage. Yet I know plenty of people who can’t even afford to spare $5, so it’s really so personal, just try to remove that line of thinking in general.

  184. Ginevra Farnshawe*

    Eager for thoughts:

    I’m planning to quit, without anything lined up, in the next couple of months. I do commercial litigation at a chi-chi small law firm in a big city. Name partners have known for a while that I’m stepping away eventually, have been supportive of search for in-house gigs, but it’s not a fast search at my level and the jobs I’ve interviewed for are fine but not inspiring and I’ve turned down a couple offers.

    I need, and can thankfully afford (with some major economizing), a significant break—let’s say a year if I don’t bring in *any* money during that time. Some kind of break is the right move because I want to be intentional about next which takes time I don’t have if I’m doing this job, and I‘m also in a protracted fight to get the dept of ed to get sevices for my dyslexic daughter (single mom here) AND have an ill father who I want to spend more time with.

    The plan is to move on parallel tracks. The dream is setting up my own practice doing direct services (education law, employment, maybe immigration and criminal defense, idk). It would probably take two years to do more than break even on that but I could make ends meet with contract/per diem work (my current place would toss me some contract). But, relevant here, I’m also going to keep taking calls from recruiters for in-house situations if they seem right.

    So, to the extent I continue interviewing, there will be a resume gap and I assume I’ll be asked about it. My instinct is to say “I realized I was not interested in continuing at a firm because [reasons]. As you know being a litigator’s a very consuming job so I decided to take a step back to give myself the time to be purposeful and thoughtful about finding the right fit, which this is for [reasons].” But when I talk to friends, they mostly think any gap should be framed as “I took some time to deal with a parent’s illness and/or kid’s educational issues.” That’s not untrue so I wouldn’t feel weird saying it but is it really more persuasive?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      I like the ‘took a break for professional reasons’ better than ‘took a break for personal reasons’, but I’m weird. I don’t think the ‘for kid’s ed issues’ would be more persuasive, that seems very risky.

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      I do think, in general, people don’t question it as much if you say the gap is for taking care of family. I think your proposed answer is well thought out and would be fine, though. The only thing I would question is if you really are as ready to come back as you say or if I’m going to get a rusty lawyer with half her heart in the job. Although, you could easily combine the two approaches. Some of your [reasons] could include needing more balance to take care of family.

      1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

        Right—*definitely* wouldn’t use that script if I were going back to a firm, but it would be more like “I knew I wanted an in-house role where I could use my skills to support an organizational mission in proactive ways, rather than being an outside litigator who is necessarily an after-the fact problem solver without the same sort of stake in the day to day operations of my company.”

        1. MoopySwarpet*

          Not being a lawyer, but re-reading now, I missed the firm vs in-house reference. I think that makes your answer even more solid on its own.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would frame it in the light of “I took time off to personally decompress from the hectic lifestyle of litigation. I used the time to reconnect with my family and decide on how I’d like to restructure my career moving forward.”

      A year off from a highly compensated, high stress position is totally utterly normal in my experience. And since you’re trying to slide into the less crazypants world of in-house law should show them that you’re still working on that work-life balance more than anything.

      It would only be an issue in my POV if you were looking to take a year off and then try to get back into litigation, then they’d be all “Well you’ll just leave us like you did the last place byeeeeeeeee.” kind of stuff.

    4. Ginevra Farnshawe*

      Thanks all—this kind of confirms my instincts. I think I’ve been asking too many lawyers who are, god bless them, very risk adverse as discussed on the thread about taking time to go to Spain. Sick dads they get, admitting that is acceptable, but somehow but admitting you don’t want to spend your life yelling at Panamanian hedge funds on behalf of Bermudan hedge funds is making yourself too vulnerable.

  185. Stefan Thelan*

    I’ve applied to a position with a community organization I used to volunteer with. I think I’d be a good match for the position.

    We’re in the final round of interviews and I’ve learned that there are two other candidates at this stage, one of whom is a neighbor and an acquaintance. (I learned this because the organization used an online signup sheet to schedule interviews.) This neighbor is a lovely person with stronger ties to the organization than I do and, frankly, probably better qualifications.

    I’d love this job, but once I saw this neighbor’s name I realized it was a long shot for me. For a lot of reasons, she’d be the obvious choice. I know, I don’t know everything! Maybe there’s more the situation than I know, but I really can’t imagine a scenario in which she doesn’t get a job offer. And that’s fine! I exit this process with my relationships with the organization and my neighbor intact, I’ll be happy.

    Towards that end, though, I wonder if I should say anything explicitly in the interview. Do I acknowledge the other candidate? Do I say something about wishing everyone well regardless of their decision? Is there any way to do that that isn’t ridiculous?

    1. MoopySwarpet*

      I would pretend like I didn’t have the insider knowledge you have. This does give you a little bit of an advantage because you do know what your competition has going for them. You can highlight the things YOU have going for you that she might not have.

      Deep breath and aim high. ;)

      1. MaxiesMommy*

        But if they hire you, they dont have to worry about offending a friend when they put in corrections. Sometimes a little distance is good!

  186. Ranon*

    Does anyone have a non-video source for tutorials/ general guidance for MS Project? (Video help and I are generally incompatible)

    I basically just need to be able to make a Gantt chart (based on calendar days for working days which apparently MS project doesn’t like very much) and I don’t anticipate using it much outside of the one project I’m required to use it on. I’ve brute forced my way through it so far but whatever I’ve done already has the file corrupting when I save revisions and we’re only one month into a 12+ month project where I expect to update the file at least monthly. Is this thing so buggy that I’m really going to have to build it from scratch every time we revise it?

    I’m used to picking up software relatively quickly but so far as near as I can tell this thing is either garbage, completely unsuited to the task I’m using it for (although it’s quite commonly used in related industries and possibly relatively common in mine), or I’m going about things all wrong. Current internet research suggests all of the above.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I haven’t used Microsoft Project (my organization explored the online version, but decided not to use it), but my understanding is that it is designed for Gantt charts (I may be completely wrong), so it’s odd that it’s corrupting.

      StackOverflow and TechWalla are two forums I often go to for finding solutions and tutorials for software stuff. And could you use working days instead of calendar days? That is pretty central to how Project is designed. Do others in your organization use it who could provide some insights?

      Side question: Does it have to be Microsoft Project? I have developed Gantt charts using SharePoint Tasks before (or something similar, it’s been a while), which allows calendar days.

  187. Stuff*

    Does anyone else hate self-performance evaluations? I really do. It doesn’t matter how good I am at my job, or how my performance is, I cannot evaluate my own performance. I’ll give myself a D or an F every time, because anything higher is just wrong. I’m not wired to say or believe good things about myself.

    1. TheOtherLiz*

      These are required where I work and I used to loathe them, too. It changed when I made the connection: our evaluation comes with a grade, which determines a merit based increase. My first year, my manager disagreed with me often and said I needed to rate myself more highly. The second year, I used it to construct a carefully thought out written argument for why I deserved a significant raise. I encourage you to think of yours that way. Also look back in your emails and meeting notes for feedback from others – compliments on your presentation, kudos for a good idea, and reference those. Think of this not as falsely inflating or bragging about yourself. It is making a case that you deserve a raise, or at least that you are meeting expectations.

      Also, if you have a hard time knowing whether you’ve done things well, do you have annual performance goals? Can you look back at them and check off what you’ve done and not done? That way it’s not vague.

      1. Stuff*

        My workplace is actually really, really bad about making performance goals, let alone evaluating them. Or keeping track of what is due when, and what has been done. And our manager got fired a couple months ago after the new HR head got wind of how much of a jerk he’s always been, and the assistant manager isn’t willing to stay for long, so we don’t have any longer term leadership, which isn’t helping.

        End of the day, though, I just hate myself and never pass up an opportunity to say I’m worthless and don’t deserve to be wherever it is I am.

        1. TheOtherLiz*

          Ack, I’m sorry.
          And it sounds like this is much bigger than the daunting task of writing this self eval – and something that therapy can be massively helpful with. I speak from experience. Shaming yourself and being your own private critic is exhausting and demoralizing. And you’re not the only one doing it to yourself. If you’re not already seeing a therapist, I encourage you to think about it!

          1. valentine*

            I just hate myself and never pass up an opportunity to say I’m worthless and don’t deserve to be wherever it is I am.
            So performance review time is Opposite Day and you’re a straight-A person unless you can really come up with good reasons to give yourself a couple of B’s. For this next year, keep a list of your metrics and anything you did well or were complimented on.

    2. Dasein9*

      We had reviews, including a self-evaluation, recently. I gave myself top marks in everything so my supervisor would have to tell me why he lowered any of the categories. He did; I’d made a mistake that really did merit some kind of consequence, and it also allowed me to consider the matter finished and stop beating myself up over it. (Analogy: B’s in two classes while the rest are A’s.)

      TheOtherLiz is right: this probably has to do with your income. Unless doing so will make you look really out-of-touch, give yourself high marks.

      Can you pretend you’re doing the evaluation for someone else, someone you’re very fond of and who just happens to have the same job you do?

  188. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    I know it is late in the day but I am wondering what level of jobs someone like me should apply to.

    I got my master’s degree directly after my bachelor’s, and am working in a field adjacent to what I got my masters in right now (~1.5 years at this job). I had no other major experience to put on my resume besides my lab job from grad school and my internship-turned-contract job during my degree. I feel sort of overqualified for entry-level positions, but don’t meet most of the work time requirements for positions that I feel otherwise qualified/qualified enough for. Most of the positions I’m interested in say 3-5 years of experience–do I count my master’s degree in that? What to do? Do I need to tough it out in another entry-level position, but in the field I am actually interested in working in? For what it’s worth, my current job has good benefits and is building my resume in a way that is probably reaching a plateau, but has a number of management issues that are affecting my mental and physical health, which is why I am looking.

    1. Emmie*

      I recommend you apply to both types of positions. It sounds like the current position doesn’t work for you. Employers may be more likely to interview you in entry-level positions; however, you may receive interviews at the 3-5 year experience positions too.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Agreed!

        Also, as discussed somewhere (possibly this open thread, possibly an older one), different employers apparently have very different ideas of what they are looking for when they mean “X to Y years of experience.”

  189. Dr Useless*

    I have a job interview coming up next week. I was told the employer is looking for someone to temporarily fill this role, because the person they hired for it quit again shortly after. I would like to ask if there’s any chance of this position becoming permanent, but one of the issues I predict is that they might consider me overqualified.

    Any advice on 1. bringing up the option of a permanent position and 2. making clear that I’m genuinely interested despite technically being overqualified? One reason why I’m interested is because I’m currently mostly looking for stability, not so much for perfect fulfilment through a job, but that’s obviously not something I want to say in an interview.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Not directly related to being ‘overqualified’ etc, but in your position I would probe about why the previous (‘permanent’? I infer…) hire bounced so quickly, and look out for red flags in general.

      1. Dr Useless*

        I was pointed to this vacancy by a former boss who I have a very good relation with and who’s worked adjacent to the relevant team for a long time and from what I understand the person who was previously (before the new hire who bounced) in this position had been there for a while, so I’m not hugely worried about it. But I will definitely ask them what happened, since I only got a rough sketch of the situation from the person who referred me.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I think it’s fair to ask if they plan on hiring someone permanently and if whoever they hire would be eligible to be considered to be shifted to a permanent position.

      Regardless of whether it’s temporary or permanent position, it seems like you want to explain would you’re interested in the position, even though you might seem overqualified. If you re-frame the “why” into discussions about stability (and any other genuine reasons), leaving off the “not so much for perfect fulfillment through a job” part, that sounds reasonable.

      As AAM has said elsewhere, employers want candidates that are enthusiastic about this particular position.

  190. Hopeful Professional Computer Person*

    Would love some advice and thoughts!

    I just turned 24 and am ready to move onto a different field. My post-college work history only has two entries – a 1.5 year position (left because I was stress-crying in the bathroom almost daily) and a 3 month temp position. It’s not the greatest but my past managers always enjoyed working with me and told me that I’m a great employee – so I must be doing something right?

    Well I just got accepted into an online computer science program that will help me change careers into a path I’m much more fit for. I’m looking for a new position right now but I can’t apply to a computer science one because they want entry level people to already have their degrees completely or at least halfway done. Instead, I’m currently looking for an entry assistant position to fund the program for 1-2 years before quitting so that I can do computer science internships.

    So finally onto my question! Will it look bad from a hiring managers perspective once I start applying to computer science internships and full-time positions? Due to being a job hopper? I honestly didn’t even know this would be a big issue and what exactly is a job hopper vs. someone escaping a bad workplace. Is it assumed people will stay in a position for at least 3 years?

    1. new kid*

      I think in your case it would be pretty easy to speak to as a new grad – the jobs you had previously were before you realized you wanted to work in tech which is why they weren’t a good fit. As long as you’re in your first actual tech job for a good couple of years before moving on, this shouldn’t scream ‘job hopper’ to anyone.

    2. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      I’ve had one for about 2 years, most people don’t know that I have it. On the plus side, I rarely have migraines anymore and I used to get them frequently.

  191. Imaginary Number*

    I really want to get a daith piercing. I think they look really pretty with a simple gold hoop. I’m wondering what the risk is of looking unprofessional, though, and I wanted to get some opinions. This is not a piercing that could be taken in and out easily, even after it heals (which takes a long time since it’s through a big chunk of cartilage.)

    For context: I’m an engineer. On a daily basis I typically wear jeans and either a polo shirt, sweater, or blouse. However, I do dress business casual for reviews/meeting with high level execs, and occasionally in suits for customer-facing meetings. There are women higher up than me who wear more typical cartilage piercings (helix) but I’ve never seen a daith piercing in my workplace.

    Thoughts?

    1. agnes*

      I had to look up what a daith piercing is–I like it! I actually think it’s less noticeable than the helix piercings.

    2. TechWorker*

      I doubt most people will even clock it – I don’t think they’re particularly unprofessional. (They’re also sometimes done for migraines, so regardless of whether that’s the reason for yours I imagine in some people’s minds that makes them less out there…)

    3. Auddish*

      I have one, and I’ve been working in business casual to professional offices for about 4 years now. It’s never been an issue, most of the time the only people to point it out are other people with daith piercings.

  192. New Normal*

    I’m working on my resume and one thing’s tripping me up – I’m going for more training-type positions so I want to include some teaching jobs I’ve had. For a few years I taught private sewing classes as an independent contractor then, more recently, I taught through Joann’s for two years. I was never a Joann’s employee – I was a contractor with them as well – but should I list that separately or group it all under one job? Or should I even include it at all or does having such a ‘crafty’ job weaken my application?

    My other major teaching job was as a TA at a seminary (my husband was attending and I had the right skills for the job so I was their first non-student TA) which puts me in another quandary – does it strengthen my resume since I was teaching masters-level classes or weaken it since there’s the religious association?

    Sigh. This whole resume thing is hard.

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Group the sewing teaching. They would want to know about the skills, not the employers. If you planned the lessons and created materials and if you got good reviews, that’s what I’d want to know. If you taught a variety of sewing techniques, maybe briefly highlight that since most people don’t know squat about sewing.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I can do it on my mobile. Have you made sure that your browser is up to date?

    2. Spartan*

      It was simply my own impatience. The screen initially loads then once it has everything loaded it applies the setting and collapses everything. While it is loading everything is expanded. Because of the large number of posts in the thread I noticed it where I don’t usually.

  194. Emily B.*

    I just started a new job about a month ago. My supervisor and the other senior people I interact with literally will not respond to anything you write in an email other than the first line. Since I’m new, I sometimes have more than one question per email. I try to be very concise and phrase my questions clearly in separate, short paragraphs (each only one sentence, I say paragraphs to express how they’re formatted), which I think is easiest to understand. I only get a response to my first question. It’s starting to seem somewhat pointed–like they’re intentionally not responding to anything but the first line to get me out of the habit of writing more than one line.

    Any advice on how to handle this? I’m already paring down my questions to the bare minimum. I try to figure things out on my own before asking, of course, and sometimes when I have a question ignored, I literally just sit for five or ten additional minutes and think, search for an answer on the intranet, etc., trying to figure out if it’s something I can answer myself, but often it’s something that there would be absolutely no way for me to know or find out. Should I put multiple questions in one line? Send an email for each question? Follow up when questions are ignored?

    I’m trying to make a good impression, be very diligent, etc., but it slows down my work and creates an impression that I can’t do anything without a lot of handholding when I have to keep coming back with three separate emails. And I really can’t think of anyway to avoid asking questions–sometimes there are three things that you don’t know about a task you need to complete, and there’s no other way to figure them out than by asking. In some past jobs I’ve been so afraid of asking questions that I made significant mistakes. I’m trying not to fall back into that pattern, because I’d rather look stupid than actually be bad at my job, but it feels like there should be another alternative.

    Maybe I just needed to vent, I don’t know. Maybe this is a super common thing among busy, senior people that I just have to learn to deal with?

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Send a separate email with each issue you want them to respond to. (assuming there are not that many!)

      1. Asenath*

        Yes!! I deal with a lot of people via email, and I swear some of them only read the first line, even if I format the thing with bullet points or something marking off two or at the most three items, so I sometimes send separate emails with one question per email.

        You might also ask the worst offenders if they prefer another method of communicating.

        1. valentine*

          If the portion that appears in preview looks complete, they may not be clicking the email at all. I’ve missed a lot this way, so I learned not to go by the preview and to delete blank space for my subject=message emails, so others don’t have to click for nothing.

    2. Peaches*

      I would recommend sending saying to your supervisor (and any others who don’t always respond that you regularly have questions for), “what is your preferred method of communication when I have questions for you?” Some people are just not good with email, which is annoying, but it is what it is. I very much prefer email, so I get your pain. I struggled with the exact same thing when I first started my job – no matter how concise I was, some of my colleagues would only respond to the first question in my email. Every. Single. Time.

      Now, I know which of my colleagues prefer phone over email. If I have a question for my colleague, John, I always call him, because I know that’s how he prefers to communicate. I get my questions answered more clearly, and quicker when I just pick up the phone and call him. My coworker, Lisa, however, I always email. She, like me, prefers email.

      I think the bottom line is that you need to feel out others’ preferences when you’re communicating.

    3. Kathlynn (Canada)*

      Can you talk to any of them to see what’s going on? Is there a log of space between each question? They might not see the additional questions when replying to them. So have you tried to send questions in the same paragraph.

      What do other readers think about just sending them a question of “should I just ask one question per email? You a’ll have been ignoring the rest of the questions” probably too passive aggressive.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, I get that sometimes, and I can over write.
      Stick to strong subject lines: Question: RE the XYZ event, Question: Where are the TPS Reports?

      It might take multiple short emails, and that may just be the culture. Ask your boss what the preferred format is.
      Is this an office that uses Slack or messaging instead?

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      Start your email with: “Three questions:” so they know they have to get out of the preview window or whatever the hell they are doing wrong. If they still don’t answer the whole thing, talk to someone in person and find out if that’s the culture here.

  195. Mwh*

    I’m curious about how to approach salary negotiations when applying to a place that has laws against considering salary history in determining pay, such as the city of Philadelphia, or some states. I’m asking because I’m applying for a lateral move into such a place, and my previous salary is a teensy bit higher than the range they are listed that. If I get an offer of X-2, does it makes sense for me to say ‘at my current position I’m making X, is there any way you could match it?”

    1. Alex*

      If I understand the law correctly, it’s not that they are not allowed to consider it, it is that they are not allowed to ASK for it, the way a lot of companies try to in order to base whatever offer they give you on what you currently make. But if they’ve already given you the offer, I think you can say you were looking to not have a pay cut.

  196. Leah*

    a week ago more or less I applied to a job that was right up my alley – I had all the requirements for the job, the company seems amazing and their product is something I like, benefits are really good, etc. – and today I noticed the team leader that I’d be working with if I got that job looked at my LinkedIn profile!!! I haven’t had a single interview yet (I’ve been job searching for two months now) but I’m feeling real good about this one.

    Send positive thoughts for me you guys!!!

  197. honey*

    I hope this doesn’t count as off-topic, but what do you think would be the immediate aftermath if a federal law was passed requiring all salaries to be transparent?

    1. Kathlynn (Canada)*

      A lot of non-compliance, if you look at the First Nations in Canada, the federal government implemented a law requiring their tribe leaders to release their salery information, and very few complied. And afaik this was caused by people worried about corruption and greed among the leaders of various tribes. (btw, I’m not judging either sides I’m sure it’s 100x more complicated than I’ve stated here. With both good and bad motivation on both sides. I just plain don’t have enough information about it all. Just think it’s a good example for the question)

    2. Asenath*

      Oh, there’d probably be a lot of finagling to give people things that didn’t technically count as “salary”.

      Actually, salaries for some places here are already published, but aside from the occasional news story listing some of them, no one seems to notice. They’re all higher salaries – I’m far below the level at which they publish salaries – but because I’m in a union, anyone could take my job title, guess at how long I’ve been on the job, and get a very good idea of my salary by googling my contract. I don’t think anyone has ever bothered!

      1. CM*

        This. There would definitely be a period of time between when the law was passed and when employers were forced to comply, and, during that period, while it was all still a secret, companies would change their incentive structures so that technically the “salaries” made sense but people were getting bonuses and rewards in other ways that didn’t have to be disclosed.

        However, in the spirit of the question, if we imagine that all salaries suddenly became transparent with no finagling, I think it would help people understand how big payment disparities actually are, and that might push legislators to pursue more aggressive laws regarding income and progressive taxation, as well as getting people interested in unions again. Or it might cause a riot. I don’t know.

  198. Oxford Comment*

    Happy Friday!
    I made the (semi-terrifying) decision to turn down a job offer this week. It was a great position and a strong fit for me role-wise, but the schedule and commute were terrible. I spoke directly with the HR rep regarding the offer and my final decision, but I’d also like to reach back out to the manager to thank her again. Is that too much contact? I sent thank-you emails to the manager after my phone and in-person interviews, and I’d like to leave things on a positive note in case a position opens up later with better logistics. So: email, or let it go?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Hmm… I tend to think let it go? Hopefully, the HR rep relayed the information that the schedule and commute make the job not be a good fit for you at this time.

    2. WellRed*

      I think let it go. This is what happens when they communicate through HR instead of directly.

  199. NeonDreams*

    Does anyone have experience applying for a federal job under schedule A? My therapist thinks my level of depression and anxiety would qualify as a disability. However, I find their levels and equivalences to private service really confusing.

  200. BluePeaches*

    Would this a correct way to format a resume entry for a temporary position that started in 5/23/19 and ended on 8/2/19?

    Alpaca Sitter [Temporary Position] May 2019 – Aug. 2019

    Not sure if it’d be more accurate to write “Jun. 2019” for the starting date since the position started so late in May. Same with the Aug 2019 part, if this makes sense?

    1. Colette*

      I think May to August is accurate (unless August 1&2 were non-work days, then I’d go with July).

    2. The New Wanderer*

      May to August is technically correct and would match any specific input you would need to provide on an application/background check. If you put June to Aug or May to July on your resume, you’re shortchanging yourself.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      When you input your job history into an applicant tracking system, you’ll likely be asked to select your start/end dates from a dropdown calendar, so you’ll have to put in an exact date if you have it. Your resume should have the month/year to match the exact month/day/year you input into the form.

  201. Cleaves*

    Hi all, long time reader, first time commenter hoping for some advice.
    I accepted a role that started in January that ticked all the boxes, 9-5 day, 5 days a week, 1hr lunch, reasonable money but a pay cut from my last position. The real thing that did it for me was that I would be a senior llama coordinator and support the llama office manager, rather than be the manager myself. All good things for me at the time.

    Flip toward to July, when the llama office manager has been headhunted for a role at a competitor llama wrangling company, and my company make a decision to put her on gardening leave until her final day, a month notice is more usual in UK. Literally was about 9:10 when she told us she had handed in notice, to 9:40 when she was made to leave.
    There was no communication about what then happened, a general assumption was made that I would take over the role until otherwise instructed. Her emails were forwarded on to me, I picked up everything I could and anything I didn’t know I had to find out.
    My grand boss (now boss) since has made noises about find ‘someone else’ but is never clear in what capacity this would be. We had a sit down about a week after with HR manager and my boss and had a general chat about the office and plans etc, I did throw my hat into the ring to say I wanted to take on the llama office manager role as I thought I had a lot to offer and the hr manager and boss made encouraging noises.

    I feel I’ve been naive in this and really bit off more than I can chew here. For context, I knew my original boss was a control freak – waited literally hours to be given insubstantial emails to do, information severely controlled and parcelled out, vital info and training barely given. But until I ran the office for a month I didn’t realise how much I truly had no idea about the industry, company and how the business worked. I moved into this role as a sort of sideways step from property rentals.

    For the last month, I’ve run the office, managed staff, checked invoices, answered all manner of llama based queries that I had no idea about 5weeks ago. To be clear, without me and my abilities, the department would be on fire.

    I feel I’ve been naive and assumed that this hard work would result in being offered the llama office wrangler. However it is becoming clear to me that (grand)boss will let this situation run and run until something turns up without input from him.

    What is the best way to put my case to GB about him making a decision about the office without saying ‘without me, your department would be literal fire and sh*t’
    Thanks!

    1. Tom & Johnny*

      HR was in the status meeting discussing next steps for the company and the position? Perhaps ping them. It’s much more low stakes than nudging the grand-boss directly. Especially if grand-boss is known to be grumpy or snappish.

      “Hi! Checking in on the status of hiring for the manager role. Is there a horizon for things yet?”

      During the back and forth, you can clarify that you’re happy to help out, and you’re keeping your hat in the ring (or not as the case may be) but need some sense of the horizon so that you can appropriately manage your people. It’s not unrealistic that your employees deserve some sense of timing too.

      Leave it to HR to nudge the grumpy grand-boss. Hiring, and getting the input and decisions of the hiring manager which is grand-boss, is their job. If it turns out they won’t, can’t or are ineffective at it, then revisit next steps.

  202. Taylor Swift*

    This might be a silly question, but as someone who’s a recent grad in their first adult job, how big of a deal are mistakes when you’re new to a job? I’ve generally done high-quality work and haven’t received any complaints, but today, I was sent a spreadsheet of things to update in a CRM system. I updated everything, sent it back, and got a reply from my coworker that was along the lines of “thanks! did you see there were two other sheets within the spreadsheet?”

    I, in fact, had not seen that there were two other sheets, so I replied with something along the lines of “whoops, I’ll go fix these now and get these updated.” Are minor mistakes like this a big deal because they make me look not super detail-oriented? Or am I overthinking this? I’d say I probably do something like this maybe once a week tops – none of these mistakes have gone out to clients but they’re all stuff like this.

    1. Tom & Johnny*

      Definitely not a big deal. Take the tone of how big a deal it is from the tone of the person bringing it to your attention. In this case, they were upbeat and factual, and your response and repair were perfect.

      You did not get defensive (“Please tell me there is more than one sheet going forward” Yikes!). You didn’t over explain (“Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t get enough sleep, my new puppy was up all night! I’ll fix this now and never ever make the same mistake again.”) You were appreciative of them bringing it to your attention, and you got it done.

      If you’re concerned the mistakes are too frequent, what is your opportunity for 1-on-1s with this person? Do you guys already do weekly check ins or otherwise coordinate the big picture of your responsibilities? Bring this up then. “Now that I’ve been here [duration of time] I’d really like your feedback on my error rate and improvement.” That sort of thing.

    2. stelms_elms*

      I’ve done that (and not early in my career). Don’t lose sleep over it! I think a lot of us don’t generally look for additional sheets, but just make a note to look going forward.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes, I would say it’s a fairly common mistake at every level. However, if there are instructions to look at all the worksheets in the email, or if every spreadsheet has multiple relevant worksheets every time, then continuing to make these mistakes does start to look sloppy. In that case, you’ll want to improve your process so you double-check all of the worksheets before you consider the task complete.

        But generally, it’s like forgetting to attach a file you say you’re attaching. Happens all the time, generally not considered a performance issue if you fix it as soon as you catch it or are notified.

    3. Not me... the other guy*

      You’re over thinking it if the occurrences are not the norm for you.

      Think back to all those people you’ve either worked with in other jobs, been in class with, or just interacted with.
      Can you spot the ones that are terrible and don’t pay attention? What about the ones that made the odd mistake and you didn’t think twice about it.

      Maybe slow down a little, ask for clarification, and double check things. I’m sure there are a lot of new things coming your way right now, so more frequent ‘rookie mistakes’ are expected.

    4. Asenath*

      Everyone makes minor mistakes from time to time, and they’re usually not a big deal. Being a perfectionist in a job with a LOT of detail, I do set up procedures to double and triple check stuff a couple of ways, but when I do slip up, I apologize (briefly! “Oh, you’re right! Sorry about that; I’ve attached a corrected list”.) And I try to remember not to make a big deal of it when someone else slips up – when I get the correction and apology I say something like “No problem!”

    5. Argh!*

      Not a big deal in most workplaces. Everyone does this kind of thing, especially if it’s an unusual circumstance and it’s the first time you’ve encountered it.

      It would be a sort of big deal (the first time) where I work because my boss is a pedantic schoolmarm. At my last eval. she presented me with a list of mistakes like this as if it proved I didn’t deserve a raise. It was a list of twelve things. In twelve months. Not one of them had any adverse consequence other than someone having to point out the mistake. I encounter these things in other people’s work daily, so yes, these things are a big deal if your boss is a jerk.

      Considering that you’re new, if someone makes it into a big deal, you would at least know that you don’t want to work there longer than you have to.

    6. Fortitude Jones*

      You’re overthinking it. You didn’t crash the CRM or anything that cost the company money, so you’re good – it happens.

  203. No More Bagels*

    I’m in a temporary summer position and my boss and coworkers keep mentioning that I should be looking for my next position which makes me feel weird as hell? I definitely was not a superstar in this position due to different perspectives of the job roles between me and the manager but I wasn’t fired? Yet it’s obvious that I am not a good fit and I’m very ready to move on.

    Well I’m finally getting interviews but this summer position is preventing me from scheduling them. I only have specific days that allow me some flexibility to leave early. Otherwise, I’m expected to be present for the whole day and my interviewers don’t want to wait another week for me to become available. Since my boss keeps badgering me about finding another job, do you think it’d be a decent shot to ask if I could leave early when I’m scheduled to be present the whole day? I’m coming up on my last week so I thought it wouldn’t hurt. My biggest concern is that I’m already on somewhat thin ice with the boss and me asking for this favor will cause him to blacklist me or something from this huge organization that I’d like to come back to someday, just in a different department. Thoughts?

    1. Tom & Johnny*

      Ask for the time! Be upbeat and positive about it.

      “You guys have been encouraging me to job search and I’ve been following your advice. I’m really excited because [company] called me back! The only day I can meet is Tuesday. Since it’s my last week I’d really appreciate the time!”

      Don’t beg for the time, don’t lie about it to get the time. Be clear it’s for a new opportunity. They know it’s a summer position and have been telling you to put yourself out there.

      Unless the day you’re asking for 2-3 hours outside the office is the day a big deliverable is due that you’ve been in charge of all this time, it shouldn’t be too much of a problem.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ask for the time, he’s actually evil if he has the audacity to tell you that you need to find another job then acts put out when you need time off for just that.

      Is he that important to blacklist you? It’s a huge organization and rarely does anyone have that much power unless you really goof up. Just being a “sub par” temp and asking for time off towards the end of your project wrapping up is not enough to blacklist anyone. Even petty people usually need something much more egregious than taking their not-hint, straight-up “you should leave” and left with it.

  204. JJ*

    I work at a tech-heavy customer support job as advanced support (one step above customer facing customer support). Essentially, I get support tickets the front line support can’t figure out. I have been in my new role for less than a year, but it seems I was underpaid previously. It has recently come to my attention that new hires to the front line support (which I previously did before being promoted) have a starting salary much higher than I do. When is the best time to approach my manager about a raise? Before review time, or should I went until my review?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Since you’ve been there less than a year, I would think it should wait until your review, since that will (hopefully) give you fodder for why you have earned a raise. Be prepared to go in with a rationale and a target. Avoid comparing yourself to your coworkers and data from salary websites. Also, see the section on salaries and negotiations here.

  205. Cows go moo*

    What’s with people who write unnecessarily aggressive emails? Our client organisation has a secretary whom I see only very occasionally, where she’s perfectly pleasant and polite. But she has the tendency to get angry and use hyperbole when communicating via email. She couriered something that didn’t get delivered – completely out of our control as it’s her courier company – and she wrote a scathing email to us along the lines of “I am extremely disappointed” “this is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE” “I am disgusted by this” and so on. She cc’s her manager into these communications as if trying to highlight her disgust and our perceived incompetence when it’s either not our fault or a minor issue that only requires a one sentence correction.

    Her company is Very Important so I have been hesitant to say anything until now. Is there a diplomatic way of saying “you need to stop being hysterical over dumb stuff that we have no control over”? Or is there no other option but smile and send her bad karma?

    1. RVA Cat*

      Given she’s not at all like this in person and she always copies her boss, could the emails be repeating what her manager scrams at her?

    2. P.C. Wharton*

      I think it’s helpful to remember that probably everyone else realizes she’s overreacting too. I mean, if she’s blaming you for her courier failing (that’s the situation, right?), that’s completely irrational. Anyone reading the email knows that, and even if a boss were confused, you could easily explain that you had no control over the situation. I think this is someone who you can just privately be amused by. And do remember–she might act pleasant to your face, but under any type of pressure she blows up and blames innocent bystanders. Avoid accordingly.

      1. CM*

        Yeah, I was going to say — if she’s nice to your face and yells at you on email, probably she’s scared to be aggressive in person but she feels total rage toward you just the same.

        I’ve worked with people like this, and I’m lucky because it falls in the sweet spot of my empathy wheel where the behavior doesn’t bother me and I just find it sad. People who flip between being super, super aggressive and super, super passive — especially when the passivity is to your face and the aggressiveness is a little more cloaked — are terrified literally all the time. They have no tools to resolve interpersonal issues, they can’t assert themselves, and they go through a cycle where they let people do stuff to them without complaining and then, when they have the opportunity, and think they can do it safely, they lash out.

        The best response I’ve found is to deflect it with humour. If you confront them about it and make it A Big Deal, they feel persecuted and it makes them angrier. But, like I said, for me this falls in a category where I don’t feel bothered by it, so it’s not a struggle to hold my temper or anything.

  206. Annabelle G.*

    Any tips for setting and achieving goals that do not have any outside accountability?

    I’ve never had much success in achieving, well, anything that wasn’t built into a syllabus or job description. Basically, if it doesn’t have to get done, it doesn’t get done

    And I honestly feel as though it’s holding me back from achieving what I want in life.

    I have a lot of creative hobbies; I’ve never finished a project. I have a lot of skills I want to learn to strengthen my career prospects, but there’s nothing holding me to doing so. Obviously, half the battle is to just do the thing, but after a week or two I just… give up.

    Please help?

    1. Colette*

      Can you commit to a time instead of a result? I.e I’ll do 1o minutes a day, not matter what I accomplish. It doesn’t matter if it’s terrible, or unfinished, just that you put in that amount of time.

    2. LQ*

      Find outside lines for yourself. Find something outside of you and externalize your goals.
      If you want to write a novel do NaNoWriMo. If you want to run more, sign up for a marathon. If you want to learn a skill sign up for a class or pay up front for a certification exam (did this one recently myself, it was just what I needed).

      If it is someone else that you don’t want to let down motivating you (and be honest with yourself, this may be very hard) then get a buddy, commit to mentoring someone, join professional development groups and sign up to be on a committee. If it is money, then pay up front for something that has descriptions and deadlines.

      1. Annabelle G.*

        It’s funny you mention NaNo. Writing is one of those hobbies I’ve never followed through on despite participating in NaNo several times. For me, it was just another project that didn’t have any accountability or consequences or rewards (at least short-term).

        I think I struggle finding my motivation. I did well in school simply because that’s what people are supposed to do, just like people are supposed to do their jobs. But I don’t know what kind of motivation that would translate as.

    3. Definitely a Real Cat*

      These suggestions from someone aiming for a career in novel writing (one written and edited so far, but the hellish journey toward publishing has only begun):

      1. Create outside accountability where you can. Partner up with a friend who also has project aspirations and check in with each other, however works best for you.
      2. Set a schedule you can stick to and stick to it. If it’s ten minutes once a week, you start with that. Fit it in where it fits naturally, so it’s easier to keep it up.
      3. Make yourself a syllabus. Break your project down into measurable steps and write it out like you’re assigning it to someone else.

      I’ve done all three at various points. Sometimes they work better than other times. But I think the key is to keep more than one strategy on hand, so when one thing stops working you can switch it up.

      1. Colette*

        Outside accountability can also look like starting a blog with regular updates, or updating social media once a week with progress,

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes this happens to me when there is just too much to do.
      Check to see if it’s reasonable to make curtains for every room in the house while doing the stuff that is necessary to get through you week. (I still have not finished the curtains. It’s been 27 years. This is not good.) Unfinished projects tug on us in a negative way, their silent presence is a message of failure, “You failed to complete me! I am still sitting here!”

      The number one priority should be your self-care. We can’t let ourselves drain and drain and drain. We have to have rest, hydrate and eat good meals. Make sure these things are going on or else we just have a house of cards, because health can tank at any time.

      The next priority is taking care of your home, keeping your home safe and if you have any beings living with you keeping them safe also.

      I stopped bringing new projects into the house. I gradually sorted through the projects I had and I probably completed one, but got rid of two without finishing them. I realized the projects only made me happy short term. Many of the items I did not want to have to clean for the rest of my life- that was a big help to frame things this way.

      Building up your career is probably the number two priority after health and safety. I tend to think of my craft projects as an outlet, but too many of them got to be escapism. If I was doing the projects I was not building up my work skills- perhaps some avoidance behavior going on there.

      Set boundaries with yourself. I had a set bed time, it was a hard deadline. No matter what go to bed. I quit adding to the piles of craft/hobby stuff. I found some cheap online courses to take, some stuff I only need to get pointed in the right direction and I can figure it out from there. These courses did that for me. I used a reward system, if I did dislikable X then I got to do likable Y. So one hour of course work, then one hour of reading a great book. Here’s the key- I followed through. I actually did the X so I could get to the Y and then I actually did the Y activity. It’s important to keep our promises to ourselves.

      But what got me started on my path was making sure I got rest. Once rested it was much easier to push through things and to hold myself accountable.

  207. Jimmy*

    I need help figuring out if I should tell my boss that I’ve applied for other jobs.

    Long story – I’ve started applying to other jobs within my company. It’s a huge company with lots of divisions, so there is room to move around. My boss’s boss knows, since I used to report directly to her and I had a preexistingr relationship and I knew it would get back to her if I applied.

    One of these jobs called my boss’s boss’s boss and told him that I applied. My boss’s boss told me I should tell my boss so that she doesn’t hear from someone else. Thoughts?

    1. Colette*

      Tell her. When you’re looking internally, it’s a good idea to let your boss know – she’s going to find out anyway.

  208. Jimmy*

    I need help figuring out if I should tell my boss that I’ve applied for other jobs.

    Long story – I’ve started applying to other jobs within my company. It’s a huge company with lots of divisions, so there is room to move around. My boss’s boss knows, since I used to report directly to her and I had a preexistingr relationship and I knew it would get back to her if I applied.

    One of these jobs called my boss’s boss’s boss and told him that I applied. My boss’s boss told me I should tell my boss so that she doesn’t hear from someone else.

    Thoughts?

      1. WellRed*

        Sorry, to elaborate; word is already getting around so she does to be told. Plus, you’ve been told by a higher up to tell her. That makes it even more necessary.

  209. Worried*

    I just found out that my department is restructuring and I’ll no longer be reporting to my manager (she currently has too many direct reports) They’re bringing in a new hire to act as a go between my team and her and I’m really concerned.

    Part of why I love my manager is she’s very experienced at management and is a huge rising star in the company. The new manager has never managed before, is very early on in her career.

    I don’t know if I’m overreacting and everything will turn out just fine, but at a past job I worked under a first time manager and it was miserable (lots of disorganization and micromanagement).

    Any tips for working under a first time manager?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, really.
        I have often thought that a new manager or new cohort is an opportunity.
        Speak clearly and speak honestly. Be sincere at all times.
        If you see her struggling with something, help her or show her. You can build your reputation with her by your willingness to be helpful.
        Keep it at the forefront of your thinking that she is nervous also, it’s not just you having concerns. This works into forgiving small slip ups. She forgot a report or she missed the fact that Jane was out because of a doctor’s appointment. When something is easily fixed just mention how to get back on track. “That report is quick to generate. You can get it in about 15 minutes.” Or “Jane will be back in tomorrow, so you can ask her then.”
        I have found it helpful NOT to say, “Old Boss did X.” Instead chose the wording, “In the past X worked out well and here is why [reasons]. The point is not to liken her to your old boss the point is to help her find the best way of handling things. It just so happens that Old Boss did things really well, but no need to keep mentioning that.

  210. TooTiredToThink*

    An old coworker asked me to serve as a reference. Totally ok, although this is the first time I’ve ever done a professional reference. But some of the questions are completely throwing me. One was to list their weaknesses. And I’m like – oh boy. I know their biggest weakness (time management) BUT its been a couple of years and its a weakness they could have worked on and gotten better at. So I’m struggling on that one. Any advice?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I hate that question as a reference but mine is different, since anyone who had any kind of true weakness wouldn’t be someone I’d give a reference to. I think you should share the information but you can also use the disclaimer in there that it has been a couple of years since you worked together.

      It may depend on the structure of the job as well. Perhaps this one will be better structured to avoid them having any issues with their time management skills if they haven’t improved.

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        Right? I think that’s one reason why I am struggling because if I didn’t think he would make a good employee I wouldn’t be giving him a reference!

    2. Kittens Kittens Kittens*

      Do you have the job description? Is there something they have less experience in or need training on?

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        No, I don’t have the job description. In fact that was one of the questions was “How do you think they’d do in this or a similar position” and when I asked the former co-worker they gave me a title, but it meant nothing to me; so I flat out said that I couldn’t answer the question without knowing what the job was specifically. But that being said; this is a great idea to keep in mind in case this happens again.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      One of my bosses, who was an excellent boss, said that the trick to giving references is that reviewers will hear a neutral reference as someone who’s afraid to give a negative one. So if you’re someone who’s a tough grader, or you tend to be neutral (she was good but not great) you should make a point of displaying more enthusiasm than you normally would, to accurately convey your point.

  211. Not My Real Name*

    I’m 60 years old, and the job I want to apply for specifies some strange things: Transcripts are a requirement up front (kind of unusual but not unheard-of) and 2) the transcript *must show the date the degree was awarded* (totally unheard-of). In my field and at the university that requires this, not one other job listing has ever said that you have to show the date you received your degree. I can understand when you have a degree in progress showing when you expect to finish, but should someone with experience have to show the date of their degree? How is this legal in the United States?

    1. TooTiredToThink*

      Lots of things are legal that shouldn’t be; but unless you can prove that age discrimination kept them from hiring you and that this was one of the components, I doubt there’s much to be said (I mean, I’ve had LOTS of applications requesting when I went to high school). Is this a situation where they are trying to make sure someone graduated at least x years ago so have the required experience?

    2. Asenath*

      I (in Canada) wouldn’t have thought it odd because my university transcripts do show the dates my degrees were awarded. It would be odd to be asked for my transcript at all, unless I was applying for entrance to an academic program, at least at this stage in my life. When I’ve been on the opposite end – reviewing applications – our rule is to say “X degree required” (when a degree actually is required) but we only ask for certified proof of receiving said degree from the people we actually select.

      1. Not My Real Name*

        That’s what makes it seem odd — transcripts always show dates of everything. If someone whites out their dates, does that really matter? This institution said it would want an official transcript at the time of hire. It makes me suspicious.

        1. Asenath*

          Generally, an official transcript is sent directly from the university to the employer/academic institution, so there is no possibility of whiting anything out. If there was white-out, the recipient might wonder what else had been altered.
          I do sympathize with your concern about age – I’ve always suspected that some of the places I applied to during my last period of unemployment didn’t interview me because of my age, but I’ll never know for sure. Besides realizing I couldn’t be certain of the reasons I wasn’t interviewed, I realized that it was nearly impossible for me to pretend I was significantly younger than I was, since I wanted them to know that I’d finished a university degree and had spent time at a couple of relevant jobs, and anyone who could add could estimate my age.

    3. Weegie*

      I’m afraid a lot of people claim to have degrees when they actually don’t – either they took courses but didn’t complete them so actually didn’t graduate, or they failed, or studied at a different institution, or they didn’t study at all. So this employer is being extremely cautious in asking for those details up front (after an offer is extremely common). I’ve never seen a transcript without dates on it, but I suppose something to confirm that the person did actually graduate might require a separate document.

      I briefly did a temp job in a university where our team had to confirm candidates’ qualifications to employers. We were always very busy! I doubt this employer is doing it for age discrimination reasons; I would think they’re just ensuring that candidates are being honest.

  212. NSBD*

    Work question for everyone: what do you do if you audibly fart in a room with coworkers?! It’s not happened to me often, but my move is to ignore and silently pray they didn’t hear. Other coworkers I’ve had have said, “Excuse me,” which seems fair, or looked shocked at their own bodily noise and exclaimed “I’m so sorry!” which I think draws too much attention. Which is best? Any other strategies?

      1. valentine*

        I would appreciate and would love to pull off a stage-whispered “That’s enough out of you.”

    2. Farts*

      I make a loud noise with my chair right afterwards so maybe someone thinks the fart was also a chair noise.

    3. ...*

      If you think someone heard I would say pardon me and move on. I’ve never in 15 years noticed what I thought was an audible co worker fart so people probably didn’t notice! Are these accident slipping out or are you purposely farting hoping it’ll be quiet?? My other suggestion would be to excuse yourself when farting if it’s the second option.

  213. Formerly Arlington*

    I manage an employee who now works remotely for our company. She had to relocate for family reasons, and our owners allowed her to keep her job and work from several thousand miles away. She continues to be amazing at her job, but she has told me she is lonely and depressed and hates not being around people. For logistical reasons related to the need to move, I don’t see her quitting, but hate that she is unhappy! There is no budget for her to fly in on our dime. I try to make every meeting a Skype meeting when she’s on the call but I’m not sure that does much for her except literally show her what she is missing out on! Any suggestions to improve her morale?

    1. WellRed*

      Make sure she knows that if she decides remote work is not for her, that you’ll support in the decision to leave the job.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Can you send her a treat package? Just so that she knows she’s still a team member? It’s not the same as the face to face, personal connection. But do you do team donuts or bagels semi frequently? Something like that, that she may miss out being remote? You could send her a small goodie package just to be all “Since you missed our last donut day, we wanted you to get to enjoy something yummy.”

      I think that Skype meetings are great so at least she can still see everyone’s face and body language you can miss out of on when you’re just phoning in. Maybe also call her more often instead of always emailing or texting as well? If that’s not super disruptive to what you do.

    3. Not My Real Name*

      Is she talking on the phone with people, or just pounding away on a computer? If she’s just using a computer, maybe she could set up an “office” for an hour a day at a coffee shop or library. She’d get to know the other people who are there every day at that time.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I agree with the suggestions to send her a package once in a while and for her to set up in a coffee shop. If you can, actively encourage her to do some of her work outside the house. May be tough depending on where she is, of course, but if you show interest in her explorations of her new home, that might help her engage. I’ve done the “move and keep my job” thing twice, and the second one– which I’m in now– is very different from the first because I feel perfectly empowered to work in a coffee shop or building lounge, and it’s ok for me to take 20 minutes in the afternoon to walk the dog. The first one was much more rigid, expecting me to be at my desk all the time even when I had nothing to do.

    5. Wharton*

      This is so funny, because not only was this the exact situation at one of my old workplaces, but it was in Arlington! (maybe not your Arlington, though–Cowboys or Redskins?)

      I was just sure to always take her calls, to chat with her for as long as she needed, and within those chats to encourage her to get out and be social, as much as was appropriate in context. I knew she liked going out to eat, so I encouraged her when she considered joining foodie groups and having date nights/double dates at restaurants. These are usually not difficult, demanding conversations, but just light chat, so I saved some spreadsheets and busywork for when I was on the phone with her and just let her ramble on as much as she needed.

      It’s nice of you to care, good luck!

    6. BadWolf*

      I know I’m answering late, but does she live near a coworking space (a place set up to rent out tables/desks/etc)? The one in my town offers different packages — from a 1 day drop in rate up to a daily reserved desk. She wouldn’t be seeing you guys more, but maybe being in an office-y place would be helpful.

      If you don’t have the budget to pay for it yourself, maybe suggest it to her.

  214. Working Hypothesis*

    I’m not working right now (taking a few years off to deal with my child’s medical problem) but I’m starting to think about how to return to my field when I am able to. I’m in a licensed health care profession, and good at what I do. The problem: I have no references of any kind, because of a sequence of messy events.

    The first place I worked loved me until the day I turned in my notice in order to go back to school and get an advanced degree. Then they got furious and haven’t spoken to me since.

    The second place I worked fired me for asking a question in front of the other practitioners which inadvertently made it clear that the company expected us to do something illegal. I honestly didn’t KNOW they were expecting us to do something illegal; I was trying to say, “I know you can’t mean X by what you just said, so I’m sure I’m misunderstanding it, but what *do* you mean?” Turned out they meant X, and were royally pissed off at having it revealed.

    The third place I worked went out of business while I was there, and my boss retired.

    The school where I trained is well-known and well-respected in this area, but also went out of business a few months ago. I’m not sure where to reach the instructors.

    I have a couple of colleagues/peers who would be happy to vouch for my work, but that’s it; no managers, because my managers are all either unhappy with me or no longer in business. I’m helped by the fact that my profession is much in demand and tends to test skills directly, so if I can get as far in any given interview as the point of being asked to demonstrate, I will be in as good shape as any other candidate with my skill set. It’s reaching that stage of the process that I’m worried about.

    Any advice?

    2. Not My Real Name*

      My current manager is the reason why I’m looking for a new job, and my past manager got fired, and the one before her died from breast cancer.

      It is probably tricky to do volunteer work in your field, but if you can do something as a volunteer that would demonstrate dependability, collegiality, and adaptability, that would be a plus. Reference calls don’t usually ask about technical skills (in my field).

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        You’re right that volunteering in my actual professional capacity would be tricky… there are opportunities, but they’re usually one-shot events rather than ongoing (for example, being present at a major sporting event to ensure that all necessary health and safety precautions are being taken, and to help anyone who suffers an injury while participating in the event), and that kind of thing doesn’t really lead to the sort of relationship in which anybody can be realistically asked to speak to my work performance. They just don’t know it well enough after one day’s event, even if they appreciated my help while I was there.

        But doing volunteer work in an unrelated field might be a really good idea; thank you. I suspect that reference calls in my field do actually ask, if not about technical skills directly, about ability to handle clients in this particular context, and maintain professional norms/attitudes/boundaries, because it’s an industry that cares A LOT about those things (as it should), and there’s not really a way to test for them the way you can test for technical skills. But if I can get my peer-colleagues who have offered to speak for me to address that kind of thing, and then find something I can volunteer for which will allow a supervisor to speak to general good-employee-ness, I might have a package they’re willing to take seriously.

        Thanks, NMRN. I’m going to see what I can do with this one.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        Unfortunately, I have no idea whatsoever where to reach her. She was in the process of selling her house and looking for a new one when I last spoke to her, so I don’t even know if she’s still in the area by now, and never had contact information for her except through the work email and phone connections.

        I admit that part of my problem is that I’m very bad at staying in touch with people from previous jobs, or even keeping hold of their names/contact info. I need to be much more organized about that, once I do start working again; it’ll help avoid similar problems.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Can you get a very part-time job at some point? Even if it’s one day a week it could work into a reference for you.

  215. Frustrated on a Friday*

    Unfair treatment! I work at a 3-person company. Since my coworker is married with 2 kids, she either does not show up on Fridays or leaves at lunchtime. When I mentioned her 4-day work week (…plus her extended paid vacation weeks – We get 2 weeks, but she takes up to 6 weeks due to the kids’ school schedules…) to my Boss, he said it is because she has kids. Now during the summer, he leaves at lunchtime, too. He says I have to stay because “something” may happen and “someone” should be at the office until 6:30 PM. I told him between email and forwarding calls to my cell phone, I do not need to be here on Fridays after lunchtime especially since they are both gone. He says what if technology fails. I find this treatment to be incredibly unfair and discriminatory since I am unmarried and childless. When I complained to her about it, she says it is because she has been with the company for 15 years, so she has more perks than me. I have been with the company for 12 years! What should I do?

    Example: The only person who needed something from the office after they both left at lunchtime is my Boss. He called my office at 4:00 PM to ask a pointless question. I feel like I am being treated like a child on punishment.

    1. WellRed*

      So, your company is too small to care how it treats people and since you’ve been there 12 years, why should they? You’ve shown you’re willing to take the abuse. If you need a day off, take it. Call out sick next Friday. They aren’t going to fire you. so, I sympathize, i do believe you may be unfairly treated but do you know for a fact your coworker isn’t taking her extra time off unpaid? Stop stomping your feet at the “It’s not faaaiiirrr” and figure out what you want, need, be willing to ask for it and offer solutions, and know when you are willing to walk away and leave them to drown.

      1. Frustrated on a Friday*

        I am not in a position to walk away (bills bills bills). I did complain per my post. She gets paid her full salary.

    2. Blue Eagle*

      Sounds to me like your boss just called to check up on you to see if you were still in the office.

      Any chance you can ask to come in at noon on Friday since they both have Friday afternoon off?

      1. Frustrated on a Friday*

        After complaining about it, your suggestion is good. Since she either does not show up on a Friday and he leaves at 1 pm, I should be able to come in at 1 pm if I “need” to stay until 630 pm. Yes, he only called to check if I was still here. So odd.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Is coworker getting paid for all 6 weeks off? Are you able to take your 2 weeks off?
      Are you positive your coworker is full time?

      I mean, if you’re equal and she IS getting paid for the 6 weeks when you get 2, I would ask you why you’re still there? Because then yes, they’re taking advantage of you.

      1. Frustrated on a Friday*

        Yes. Paid. We are both full-time although she has reduced her in office hours since she leaves at 4 pm instead of 630 pm, and then she either does not come in on Fridays or only comes in until 1 pm.

  218. Don't Get Salty*

    I was doing an audit at some location over the week and I developed a crush on one of the employees that I worked closely with. I found myself oversharing when I might have been better off keeping my professional distance. Anyone know tips to keep focused and not distracted when something like this happens?

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Imagine they’re selling your secrets to a tabloid. Now think about what you want to share with them. Would you want to see it splashed all over the racks at the checkout stand? One who betrays you in this manner can never deserve your love!

      1. Don't Get Salty*

        That’s a great point! I didn’t share any trade secrets or non-public data, but that certainly helps to frame my word choice. Thank you!

  219. FutureLibrarian*

    Does anyone else find that trying to put your expertise and skills into words makes you feel like maybe you’re not that great at all? I found that trying to update my resume to focus on my accomplishments, I found that trying to write my cover letter, and I’m finding that trying to prepare for an interview (that hasn’t actually been scheduled yet by the way). I’m going through each bullet point of the job, and I’m starting to feel like I’m not really a competitive candidate. The job ad does say that the degree is required and experience is preferred but not required. How do you combat that and figure out if you’re just crazy or actually poorly qualified?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Yes! All the time! Even in my current job, despite feedback saying the opposite.

      I don’t have a panacea, unfortunately. One of my mentors has the same problem (even though he’s one of the most accomplished people in a field of highly accomplished professionals). He always advised me to focus on writing out my accomplishments as factually as possible; that seems to give my brain gremlins less to work with.

      In terms of feeling poorly qualified, to some extent, I just make my case (i.e. “I accomplished this using XYZ skills and that seems applicable to ABC in the position”), send in my application, and let the hiring team figure out whether I’m qualified since that’s their job (and they actually know what they want). I’m not entirely immune to rejection/silence blues, but at least my application is out there.

    2. CM*

      I’ve had that feeling before. Like Tree Hugger said, I think, at a certain point, you just have to let the hiring manager decide if they think you’re qualified and not eliminate yourself early. However, I do think there are other things you can do.

      Depending on the field you’re working in, it might be possible to find examples of the work this company has produced before or the projects they’ve put out before, and try to gauge from that whether the work is at your present ability level.

      Also, it can help to remember that almost every hiring decision is a trade-off and not a perfect match with the ideal candidate (the ideal candidate described in the job ad might not even be realistic). So, if they’re making a trade-off on you where you might not have experience in a certain area, what are they getting instead that benefits them? Are you super, super good at one of the other things they ask for? Do you have experience they didn’t specifically ask for that’s also relevant to the role?

      Lastly, if you do some soul-searching and figure out it’s a situation where you really, really BELIEVE you know how to do something, but you’ve never had the opportunity to try (which has happened to me loads of times), do your best to create your own opportunity to try to do that thing. Whether that’s through doing a self-directed project or volunteer work or whatever — if at all possible, come up with a way to demonstrate that you actually do know how to do the thing without waiting for someone to hire you to do it.

  220. CoveredInBees*

    Any happy success stories of changing careers after a few years out of the workforce?

    In my case, 4 years out to have and care for two children. I was an attorney (litigation) and being an attorney was not for me. I fell into another job for a few years before having my first child, but it wasn’t a great fit and the hours meant I’d never see my kids. In the years before having my kids, and since then, I’ve heard snarky commentary about women who leave work to have/care for kids and it has made me concerned about the judgment I’ll face from potential employers.

    Also, the last two jobs did a number on my professional self-confidence so tips on finding my mojo again are welcome.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Are you sure that it was lawyering that wasn’t for you, or the litigation part? I don’t mean to be condescending or assume that you haven’t thought about that. But myself, I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been inside a courtroom (and one of those was when I reported for jury duty).

      As for professional self-confidence, the “flexible JD” is kind of a myth created to sell more JD’s. Law school and law practice prepare you for a career in law. A lot of the skills aren’t as transferable as people think and say they are. After succeeding well enough at undergrad to make it to law school, and then entering a challenging litigation career, it can be disappointing to not excel right away at a non-lawyering job. But depositions, briefs, oral argument, cross-examinations, etc., are very different from whatever it was you did in your other job. Different education, training, and mind-set.

      As for women who leave work to raise their kids, I bet there are plenty of lawyers in your jurisdiction who have done the same thing. If your local bar association has a “women in the profession” group, maybe look into joining or at least attending a meeting or two. And/Or check out the solo and small practice committee; a lot of women who start in larger firms and litigation practices will strike out on their own after a number of years so that they can have a work-life balance that fits them better.

      1. CoveredInBees*

        I am 100% certain. In trying to avoid posting a wall of text, I maybe was too short on details. After law, I was a grant writer for a few years but the hours they wanted weren’t compatible with seeing my kids on a regular basis. I did some freelance between the two births and it was rough doing all the business management side of things as well as finding clients, who ended up being organizations I already knew. Also, most grant writer positions I’ve interviewed for wanted me to do individual donor relations and to woo staff at foundations to be invited to apply. I worked at trying to develop those skills for 2 1/2 years and it was a huge struggle for me. I do fine in writing persuasive documents and structured scenarios (like oral arguments, depositions, etc) but relaxed, social stuff makes me want to hide under my desk. HOWEVER, I did discover a skillset that I enjoyed a lot, which is data collection and analysis. The organization I worked for had never done any of this, so I took it on and *LOVED* it, both qualitative and quantitative analysis. I’ve come to realize that my ideal job would be basically playing with spreadsheets all day, explaining/contextualizing the results, and then going home.

        My litigation was all public interest (government and legal services), so I’d have no client base to work from and if I wanted to enter private practice in the area I knew, I’d be representing people who I think are pretty awful (slumlords, exploitative employers, etc). Also, I want to run my own business like I want another hole in my head. When I left law, I did try to interview around in private practices outside litigation but the only people who showed interest were to do more litigation. I’ve since moved to a state without any form of reciprocity, so I’d also be sitting the bar again.

  221. charlie*

    I am looking for a bit of advice. I have seven years of experience in my profession, and I want to make about 30% more than I am making. I have been working at the same job for seven years. I have a wealth of knowledge in my field. I have taken on extra work for the past year or so since my department has been understaffed, I do a lot of public speaking on behalf of my employer, and I essentially perform the job of a manager without the title or the pay. I really enjoy my job and my employer, but I am severely underpaid. My current employer has indicated that I am number one on the priority list for a performance raise, but I have not yet seen a concrete commitment from them. My current supervisor recently caught wind of the fact that I have been applying to other jobs, and told me that if I receive a job offer, I should let them know, so that they have an extra incentive to give me a raise. I was offered a position a few days ago, but I am not blown away by the non-negotiable salary that was offered. It is less than want I want from my current employer, and quite a bit less than what would (truly) tempt me away from my current job. I am currently considering the offer. Does anyone think I should try to use this offer to leverage better pay from my current employer? Even if they matched it, I still would want a few thousand more from them to be happy enough to stay for a while until a management position comes open.

    2. Don't Get Salty*

      Agreed, WellRed!

      And we’ve heard many times that people go to management threatening to quit (or with a job offer) and they accept a counter-offer. Afterwards, they are strung along at their current jobs and ultimately fired or laid-off.

      1. charlie*

        Thanks for the input WellRed and Don’t Get Salty. I suppose my problem is that the job offer I am looking at now is sub-par compared to the type of offer I would prefer to accept (doesn’t pay enough and the job duties may not advance my career opportunities), and I am not desperate to leave my job. However, I would very much like a raise right away. So is there no utility is bringing up to my employer that I would like to stay but I received an offer (which I intend not to take?). I think it would at least prove to them that I am underpaid and possibly incentivize them to give me a raise (a similar approach has worked for some of my coworkers in the past).

        1. WellRed*

          Since you don’t actually want the new job, I guess you could try but again, they know you want a raise. Can you find another way to make your case?

          1. charlie*

            I’m thinking of having a conversation with my supervisor without bringing up the job offer. My supervisor already knows it’s just a matter of time before I leave out of frustration.

    3. Alex*

      Don’t play the “I’ve got another offer, what do you have for me?” game unless you’re prepared to walk if they say no.

  222. I found something better; you can too*

    I’m a few weeks into a new job and am posting as a shout-out of encouragement to anyone who is burned out, dealing with a toxic workplace, or otherwise struggling at work.

    I am so relieved to be out of my old job. It was a rich tapestry of Catch-22s. Lots of responsibility, little control/little access to info. Unannounced policy changes that we were berated for not magically knowing about/following. Work miracles and get brilliant outcomes? No recognition–you’re just expected to do it again next year with a smaller staff. Mess up with (let’s say) hanging the TP the wrong way? Then there’s a new TP roll replacement approval process imposed on the whole Westeros branch–approvals are supposed to go through Joffrey, but he says you first need approval from Catelyn, who, when you go to her, says (as you know), she approved this two months ago and actually the next step is approval from Joffrey. I was crying in my office with the door closed, in the parking lot upon arriving at work, and on the couch when I got home from work. An EAP counselor advised me to stop checking work email on weekends. (OK, but there were bigger turds than that in this punch bowl.) I still loved certain aspects of the work and had good colleagues I worked with directly. But I was practically incapable of doing anything at home other than vegging on the couch. I looked half-assedly for jobs for two or three years, hindered by malaise and (paradoxically) by my desperation to GTFO, which made it harder for me to act like a functioning human in interviews.

    After one particularly harrowing meeting, I finally set a date in my mind when I would quit regardless of whether I had anything else lined up. I drafted my resignation letter and it was so cathartic to see it in writing. I started a journal to document what I was doing every single day to create a new plan for myself. I quietly circulated word that I was looking for jobs, which I hadn’t done earlier on. I got the offer for my new job about a month before the date when I was planning to give notice.

    In my new job, I get to still do the kind of work I enjoy, but in what seems to be a much more sane and healthy organization. I know that things can change, but I will be much less likely to stick around for that long in a bad situation, convinced that I can fix it if I just try harder. I feel so much more alive and optimistic again. I am daring to trust my own judgment again at work without fear of being blindsided by some unknown rule.

    A year ago, I was so miserable and could never have envisioned how amazingly well things could turn out. I wish the same (but sooner!) for all who are in a bad work situation now.

    1. NoLongerYoung*

      What an inspiring story!
      This resonated with me – ” was practically incapable of doing anything at home other than vegging on the couch.”
      SO glad that you got out, and thank you for encouraging others!

    2. WalkedInMyShoes*

      Thank you for sharing the story. I am currently in that situation but told that they were looking for a new Dir. of HR and being replaced. So, I negotiated 6 weeks of severance and 6 weeks to transition out in addition to my annual bonus and 25% shares of my stocks. My manager is insecure and paranoid that he constantly berates and blames me for all his mistakes and short-comings. I will let you know if I land in a better opportunity which I know will happen soon.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Yes people there is a light at the end of the tunnel!
      No matter how miserable you are, be persistent in your job search and don’t give up.

    4. LessNosy*

      Congratulations!! I see myself in so much of your description of your feelings at your old job. You have 100% inspired me to amp up my search and I love the idea of keeping a journal of what you’re doing! Thank you for posting this :)

  223. valentine*

    Is there a formula I can use to estimate my take-home pay? There are times I’m close enough based on past hours/OT (though a raise has me starting over) and times I’m way off in either direction (usually low, I think). The tax is inconsistent, so starting with the pretax is useless.

    1. MikeeBeth*

      I use an online paycheck calculator: https://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/hourly/
      It has places to enter YTD gross income and taxes withheld, but I don’t normally use those so I’m not sure how much it affects the outcome. I’m not really sure what to tell you about the tax thing. There’s not a pattern at all on how much they’re taking out? At least it’s better to estimate low rather than high. That’s what I try to do for my budget, because I’d always rather have extra to place in my budget somewhere than try to figure out what to cut.

    2. MikeeBeth*

      I use an online paycheck calculator: https://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/hourly/
      If the tax withholding is inconsistent, I don’t know what to do about that. I guess try to account for that and round low instead of high. At least if it’s more, you’ll be able to figure out what to increase in your budget instead of where to cut.

  224. MissQ*

    How do you write a cover letter to a hiring manager who is your former boss and mentor? My former manager of 6 years recently (3 months ago) left our company. He was a fantastic boss who left knowing that due to our company’s reorg he would be out of a job soon. He became a Director at another company, and while I was browsing his company’s website recently I came across a job listing that read to me as “I want someone exactly like Q, but will settle for someone not quite as experienced.” I called him and discussed the position and discovered the salary range was pretty on target for me.

    My question is, how do you write a cover letter to a hiring manager who knows your work inside and out, but also that will also make sense to the other people on the hiring team who don’t know you at all? Everything I write either feels like it’s way too formal to write to someone I know so well or way too non-descript to someone who is unfamiliar with my work.

    There are no big accomplishments in the 3 months since he left that I could highlight, at least none that I’d like to highlight compared to my other more impressive accomplishments that he witnessed first-hand.

    1. WalkedInMyShoes*

      If he was your former manager, he would be ale to help you get an interview at the new company. I recommend keeping all the accomplishments high-level.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Two suggestions:

      1) Your accomplishments should be in your resume, so don’t reiterate them in your cover letter. Use that to describe how you would be a good fit culturally, why you’re interested in the position/organization, and (most importantly? I’m not sure) what value you bring as an employee.

      2) Frame it in your head as writing to the hiring manager and the hiring team. As someone suggested on this site, I’ve started addressing the letter, “Dear hiring team” or “Dear (Hiring manager’s name) and hiring team.”

  225. Mimmy*

    Probably too late in the game but I’m looking for resources, particularly from those in special education or university disability services.

    I am about to start an internship (yay!!) at a university disability services office. The supervisor sent me links for two common tests often used to document the need for accommodations – the WAIS (IQ test) and the WIAT (often shows differences in potential achievement vs. actual achievement. The links she sent me was from Wikipedia – we all know how reliable that is ;) . She wants me to get a sense of what the scores indicate.

    If anyone can point me to some better resources that give a good, beginners overview of these instruments, I’d be grateful.

  226. Floof*

    Advice please! I’m looking for ways to build a professional wardrobe for my first year as a preschool teacher in a private school which doesn’t allow jeans, shorts, tennis shoes, or sweats. The blogs and Pinterest boards I’ve found only address either elementary grade teachers (who typically aren’t sitting on the floor/grass, chasing down straying children, and wiping noses, etc.) or Pre-K teachers able to wear school t-shirts and tennis shoes. I’d like to look pulled together but need to be very active and able to machine-wash everything! Thanks for any tips!

    1. Kathenus*

      Check out companies like Eddie Bauer and REI for performance pants – I swear by them for work – comfortable, you can move and be active but also they look fine for my business casual setting. I used to have a couple pairs I alternated with Docker/Chino style but over the last couple of years I now wear them almost exclusively. Also wonderful for traveling because crazy comfortable on long flights.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Floof, I swear by my JCP slacks because of the size selection, comfort, price and longevity of them. Many colors too! And they have pockets! I’ve had some of mine for 3-4 years and they’ve a very forgiving structured stretch pant. Just wash and HANG DRY/then refresh in dryer on low heat when dry to remove wrinkles.

      The ones I buy are:
      Worthington Slim Fit Ankle Pant
      or
      Liz Claiborne Slim Fit Ankle Pant [Usually the Emma]

      I recommend a store visit as sizing can vary. Very affordable with sales + coupons. Like $20-$24 so you can stock up. They’ll go with anything and look nice.

    3. Floof*

      Thank you for the recommendations, Kathenus and MissDisplaced. I like the idea of the pants with stretch as I’ll be moving constantly and my typical, cotton chinos bag like crazy after a few hours. I appreciate the specifics you’ve passed on- will be visiting these stores today!

  227. Decima Dewey*

    Happy Saturday, all.

    Thursday my boss, Mr. Lastname, went to the branch manager’s meeting. He came back with my completion certificate for the mandatory Community Engagement training, a training widely derided as a complete waste of time. On the plus side, my name is spelled correctly and the certificate is suitable for framing. I plan to put it somewhere appropriate, possibly my home recycling bin.

    A coworker complained about Mr. Lastname’s habit of taking his lunch hour during the last hour of the day. Which is not allowed. Mr. Lastname explained to me that he started doing it when he saw a previous supervisor do the same. Let’s just say that if you show me a document stating a library system policy, I can probably name a supervisor that broke the policy on a regular basis. Grandboss showed Mr. Lastname the policy that forbade taking lunch at the end of the day, but said occasional exceptions can be made. Mr. Lastname interprets that as meaning it’s fine to do it once a week.

    Perpetually Late Guy is supposed to be retiring. PLG thinks he’s coming back, even though he has not worked one day in June or July, and his PTO balance is a negative number. PLG has spoken to his shop steward, and thinks that his shop steward will handle everything for him. Nope, he still has to go to HR.

    Mr. Lastname has asked our head of circulation to include staffer’s lunchtimes on the weekly schedule and has asked me to keep track of when people go to lunch and when they come back. Circulation can blame one of the new people for that. Mr. Lastname also wants to have a staff meeting to welcome the two new people, who came to the branch on July 8th. His staff meetings start late, run long, and he takes forever to get to any point he has. The next meeting is going to be fun.

  228. Terrible Negotiator*

    I wanted to thank those who responded to my post about a month ago about my upcoming salary negotiation as a contractor. To update anyone who might be interested, I did ask for a significant bump in salary and laid out my reasons specifically using some language from the responses I received here. I finally had my review and while i didn’t get up to the numbers I had asked for, I did get a raise which finally puts me into 6 figures so I’m happy. I’m mostly proud of myself for asking because there’s no question in my mind that if I hadn’t asked, I would have just gotten a few percentage points instead. Moral of the story: you won’t know unless you ask for what you really want and think you’re worth! Another moral… when you have leverage, use it. Thanks again!

  229. WalkedInMyShoes*

    Need everyone’s help.

    On Monday, I learned that I am losing my job that I worked hard to build a great global team and doubled the size of the company. My new VP of HR said the executives are starting to question my integrity as Dir. of HR & Talent. When he described these so-called issues, it was hard to believe, because the 4 HR issues (spanning 6 months) that I brought up to the new VP of HR who was then a HR Advisor at that time were information shared by the executives who brought them up. That said, he said that they were not true and made up. So, he essentially questioned my integrity. I realized that he has already made up his mind on replacing me. I am highly regarded by my executive team in the company, and negotiated a package to transition out in 5 weeks. Even when I pointed out why his statement is incorrect, I do not want to work for someone who doesn’t trust me and always questions me on whether I have told him the truth or not.

    That said, I have saved and mitigated the company and him from many legal claims. I have kept training a high priority as well as stringent documentation. I grew the company in three locations with little resources and headcount. The company is successful.

    Truthfully, the executives in the teapot company and I have great working relationships including the co-founder and CTO of the teapot company. So, I have asked for references from my VPs of other teapot company departments without getting into detail why I am leaving.

    So, here’s where I need help:
    1) What do I tell future employers why I am leaving? “Due to recent management changes including a new VP of HR, I have transitioned out of my role and looking for new opportunities”. Does that sound normal and postive? Please note that I am still reeling and getting my head wrapped around what just happened.
    2) How do I explain that I was successful and had to leave? Please note that I contributed tot he company’s doubling in revenue.
    3) How do I stop thinking about all the VP of HR’s negative comments: “You are not strategic and only tactical”. The other executives feel that I am very strategic and well-thought-out planner.

    Let me know if I need to provide more information. Everyone’s help is key. I actually gathered all helpful information from this site to land this great job that I have to eventually transition out.

    Thank you to everyone in advance!

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I am so sorry WalkedInMyShoes. Sadly, I see this a lot and especially with female executives who are pushed out. And that’s what happened. You’ve been pushed out, likely because New VP wants to bring in their own team! It’s hugely unfair.

      I myself left a company and job I loved 2 years ago because of both management changes and a headquarters move. I was basically told by my new director “XCompany doesn’t really need a Global Teapot Manager.” It sucked, but I left before they made huge cuts across the board anyway.

      Get your ‘ducks in a row’ and get good references from those in the company you have good relationships with, especially the CEO. That will go a long way.

      Based on your exit package you may be limited to what you say publicly. I think your #1 is in the ballpark, but I would maybe go with:

      “Due to corporate restructuring, I have transitioned out of my role at XCompany and am looking for new opportunities”

      Stress what you accomplished over your time.
      “During my time at XCompany, I accomplished X, Y and Z with my department and I’m proud of building (fill in blank). Unfortunately, the company decided to move in a different direction and as a result of the restructuring I decided to pursue new opportunities and/or challenges.”

      Sorry but your new VP is a jerk! There is nothing wrong with being a more tactical leader, and sometimes that is what’s called for in the executive management structure. You know the TRUTH in the matter and realize that New VP is likely lying in order to bring in their OWN people (happens all the time!) and the grass for this company may not be greener by doing so. If you’re like me, you’ll feel angry and bitter (feels hella good don’t it?) but don’t wallow in it overlong. Get it out of your head and move onward to a company that deserves you. Best of luck to you.

      1. WalkedInMyShoes*

        MissDisplaced – Thanks for your amazing advice and point-of-view! That’s what I needed to start my week right. I had one interview last Thu. at a public teapot company and another pending schedule with a teapot venture capital firm. I am going to work on polishing up my resume with accomplishments and what I am going to say during my interviews. I really truly appreciate your advice! I will keep you posted.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      That sounds like a terrible situation.

      I mostly agree with MissDisplaced’s wording, though I prefer the second version, “During my time at XCompany, I accomplished X, Y and Z with my department and…” the best.

      Would it be worthwhile to talk to the the executives who brought these HR issues, to double-check their perspective versus what the new HR VP is saying? I’m not an executive, but if you’re willing to take the risk, it would be informative for you to basically let them know this is happening.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Also, in response to your 3rd question:

        Here is a fact: You “[built] a great global team and doubled the size of the company”

        Here is an opinion: “You are not strategic and only tactical”

        Here is another opinion: Successfully building a global team and doubling the size of the company requires both strategic and tactical skills. So my conclusion is, the VP’s opinion is based on fairy dust and dreams, where as your executive team’s opinions are based-on facts and results.

        1. WalkedInMyShoes*

          Thank you for your advice and objective perspective. This helps me in keeping focus on what I have accomplished. I will let you know how my job interviews go.

      2. WalkedInMyShoes*

        Unfortunately, since I have negotiated a package, I feel that it will just fall flat and may cause me to lose my package. He also told me that no one knows about his decision to replace me and asked me not to go to the executives. The day after my VP of HR told me about my “position”, he scrambled to find the CEO and CFO to spin his side of the story. I could tell that he is worried of what he decided to do. It will be my word against his. At this point, there was no use in fighting, and deciding to put my job search in full speed.

        It does suck, and it’s hard to get up to do the transition. I did negotiate that I work remotely until the 5 weeks. I also asked for my annual bonus and vested stocks, because it would have been 4 days short of my work anniversary. Ugh!

        I am not surprised by his behavior, because I have seen him do it to others.

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          “I also asked for my annual bonus and vested stocks, because it would have been 4 days short of my work anniversary.”

          DING DING DING.

        2. MissDisplaced*

          No one on the executive team knows this? He’s doing this without their blessing and doesn’t want you to talk to them? It’s 4 days short of your anniversary and involves stock?

          Oh dear! This is even worse I fear.
          Yes, you can still be pushed out, but make sure you get every penny you’re entitled to! In fact, you may want to consult an employment attorney before you actually SIGN anything.
          If there are significant salary or benefits involved, the attorney can help you negotiate this.

  230. JSPA*

    I think I flagged–hard–the point that these were problems of vastly different degree and magnitude, that however have one important point of similarity.

    So, to clarify:

    Stipulate: The (well documented, horrific) child abuse and neglect suffered by too many children who were (e.g.) transported to Australia, or put on the early orphan trains, or generally shipped to any willing taker/bidder in the days before fostering included pre-screening or oversight–were a human rights violation of the first order.

    Stipulate: The level of pre-checking and oversight reasonable for a dog is vastly different than the level that’s appropriate in human adoption.

    Argument: there’s a point of commonality in that “no questions asked beyond, ‘can you pay'” is problematic in both cases, and for many of the same reasons.

    Two things don’t have to be “the same” for one to shed light on the other. If the comparison read in some other way, I’m sorry for the resulting pain. If, on the other hand, you think that only people can suffer, or that only children can be abused, we may not have a basis for mutual understanding. If you are sure that the history of parceling out children didn’t have some very bleak moments and bad mis-steps, google will handily supply copies of the primary sources, and you can do your own research on the topic (or not).

  231. Uncooperative Co-Worker*

    I have a couple of questions and would appreciate some input. My position was a promotion and I’ve been in the role for 1.5 years. It is interesting how some of the things I come across now didn’t show up at my previous level.

    We have a new assistant who was hired externally and in her role about 2-3 months. Initially, she was fine and appreciative to be back to work. But it seems like someone has been talking to her and there’s clearly a shift in her demeanor. She complains about her workload, the staff she supports and attitude….lots of attitude. There are things she complains about that she shouldn’t because she wasn’t working for the company then. I’ve sent her an action item via email, only to have her show up at my desk questioning what it is. I try to remain helpful, not step on her toes in her role but I am picking up some hostility. In being the lead, I am trying to maintain some boundaries.

    Question – have any you dealt with a co-worker like this and what did you do?

Comments are closed.