open thread – August 9-10, 2019

by Alison Green on August 9, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Coffee Bean*

    Negotiating for a promotion and raise, here is my Q:
    (for context, I am in Finance)

    While I am negotiating for a promotion and raise, my manager and grand-manager keep using phrases like “even to get this (small % increase) has been such a large fight” and “we are fighting but having trouble getting it approved”. They say these things, indicating that higher levels within the company are the roadblock, while simultaneously saying everyone within the Financial Org higher up agrees I should be paid X amount more. I even directly asked, “Is there something I need to be doing to justify this increase” with their response being that I am (and have been for a while) performing at that level, already doing the higher-level work that the promotion would entail, and providing the value that would justify the pay. With Budgets coming up I even asked if this is something they could budget for, so they could then raise my salary to be at market rate with this promotion and not exceed 2020 budgets, and they still started talking about “approvals”, again implying that someone somewhere is stopping them. So, given the two messages, is it HR stopping the pay increase, or are they using this Boogeyman as a negotiation tactic?

    At this point in my career, I have not been in a place to advocate for someone else’s pay/raise, so I am really curious, what & who are roadblocks that managers typically face when trying to get someone else a promotion?

    1. MonteCristo85*

      I think finance has a hard time fighting for pay raises because they are the ones always doing the doom and gloom to the other departments. It does seem to reduce their fighting capital, if that makes sense. My experience is usually that promotions and large raises are usually sort of a consensus among upper management (all departments, not just which ever one you belong to) so if the department itself doesn’t have clout, or if the person in question isn’t well know by outside departments, it can be difficult to get these things approved. But sometimes they just don’t want to waste the capital, so they do fall back on this as a bogeyman. It is hard to say.

      1. De Minimis*

        Another reason I think is just that we finance people are support employees and we don’t generally bring in revenue. I work in non-profit and often raises/promotions usually go to people who are doing the “program work.” On the opposite end, support people are usually the first to be laid off or have their salary reduced.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Man oh man do I feel you on this. I’m in non-profit as well, support staff (HR), and while my current org is pretty good, there’s definitely a tendency to prioritize the needs of program/funding staff, and give support staff whatever scraps are left. And I’ve heard absolute horror stories about other nonprofits that are even worse.

      2. Coffee Bean*

        Thank you both, MonteCristo and De Minimis.

        You both are probably right – finance in general is the cost savvy, support group. Making our starting position a little bit more challenging than other departments.

    2. gbca*

      Manager in finance here. I have promoted two employees. Our company has a standard 7.5% increase that HR recommends for promotions. However, the department leader ultimately has discretion. One of the employees I promoted had been underpaid, so I asked HR to pull the salaries of people at his new level and set him at the 25th percentile of that group, which was more like a 13% raise. My boss was on board and since she owned the budget she had authority to approve. I think HR had to approve, but since I had a data-based approach I was able to justify it.

      Every company is different though and it is entirely possible HR or other executives may be able to block a larger increase. But if all the finance leadership truly believes you deserve more and there are no internal equity issues, honestly I think it’s a little BS and them hiding behind the cloak of “the powers that be”.

      1. Coffee Bean*

        Thank you gbca.

        The way you approached your employees raise was really smart! In my personal situation, I do believe that the equity issues are actually the opposite way, largely due to how low of a starting salary I initially took to “get my foot in the door”. Absolutely my fault, but I definitely want this fixed as I realize I am paid so much less than others here with the same or similar experience.

        1. gbca*

          I will add it’s typically MUCH easier to get a higher salary bump with a promotion than the annual review/increase process. In the latter case leadership had a fixed budget for raises and they really couldn’t give someone a raise that was too far out of line to address equity issues. I recall one employee who got stuck in that situation. He was a great employee and ended up leaving the company. So definitely fight for it with the promotion. You might want to also consider very (very!) gently implying that you might be looking elsewhere if you’re not getting paid what everyone admits you deserve. It’s a strong market, particularly in non-management roles. We were having a heck of a time filling finance analyst roles at my company; our recruiters were having to actively reach out on LinkedIn to find candidates and it was still tough. So depending on where you’re located you likely have some power here. Of course, you’ll have to be extremely careful about how you handle that because you don’t want to come off like you’re giving an ultimatum.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      I had a similar situation and my boss provided documentation to show me where the road block was. The VP of Finance had the final approval and he kept “losing” the documents. Boss handed me copies with every signature except the VP since he knew I was getting really frustrated and ready to leave. Those docs came in handy when I did actually put in my notice and when he forced a meeting on me to try to get me to stay (since I was such a valuable member of the org and ALL OF THEM had tried so hard to get me the raise and promotion) and I could put the blame directly on him.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Oh man, I hope you were leaving for a much better position and salary. That sounds like it felt amazing – in my head, you just fanned out all the docs in front of you with stickers indicating the blank signature line with VP’s name under it and said nothing. at. all.

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          Nope – better. Since I wouldn’t go to his office (I was leaving what the hell did I care), he came to my desk in the cube farm so I got to pull them out one by one in front of lots of people.

          2. Librarian of SHIELD*

            That’s the dream scenario! “Allow me to demonstrate to everyone in this room how opposed you are to adequately compensating your staff!”

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      A piece of advice I wish someone had given me years ago is that when someone says “I’ve had to fight real hard to get you [table scraps]” you should ask them how they’ve been fighting for you. Not in a snotty confrontational way, but in a genuine information-seeking way. Because then either you’ll get real information on the steps someone has taken for you and you’ll understand the struggle, or you’ll get some handwavy/stammery answer that reveals that they haven’t actually fought that hard for you, and that’s good info to have.

      Apologies that this doesn’t actually answer your question, but my hackles get raised whenever I hear of managers “fighting” for someone. And sometimes they truly are! But more often I feel it’s a diversionary tactic.

      1. Coffee Bean*

        Love this! Thank you Narwhal – I will absolutely ask this question the next time, because you are right, regardless of their answer the information is good to know.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      So, given the two messages, is it HR stopping the pay increase, or are they using this Boogeyman as a negotiation tactic?

      It could be either one. I know at my company, salaries, bonuses, and raises are set by line management, but have to be approved by the company’s CFO. So if CFO says no to an increase, that’s pretty much it – HR and line management has no say. On the other hand, I l’ve worked at companies where HR did have the final power over these things and line managers could theoretically use their political capital to negotiate an increase for whoever they wanted, so if you got a lousy raise, it was most likely because your boss didn’t advocate for you. It’s hard to tell in your situation, but since you’re in finance, they may be telling the truth that there’s no money in the budget to get you up to the level you need to be at market rate.

    6. Jadelyn*

      It depends entirely on your org structure – and I mean both official and unofficial. If your department head approved the raise, but your setup requires that the SVP also approve all raises above a certain amount, maybe the SVP is the roadblock. Or maybe another department head feels like their team hasn’t gotten budget for raises this year, so why should anyone else, and is nudging the SVP into denying the raise, even though that other department head isn’t over you and has no official say on the raise.

      It might be HR – it shouldn’t happen this way, but I know sometimes it does, where someone’s raise request, if granted, would raise parity issues with others in similar roles. And if HR is aware of that, and especially if there’s any trend along race/gender lines…well, the right thing to do is to fix it for EVERYONE, but whether you’ve got crappy HR who decides not to or org leadership refuses to let them, it’s not going to get fixed for everyone, and so you can’t have your raise either.

      It might be that your new rate is outside, not the budget, but the established salary range for your position (if your org uses ranges like that), and the policy is that there are no salaries approved above-range, so they’d have to redo the whole range to give you the raise you’re asking for, which might mean realigning big chunks of their comp structure. And that’s a ton of work, tbh. I’m…let’s say comp-adjacent in my role, so I don’t do the actual job assessments and market research and level-setting and balancing that goes into setting up and maintaining a comp structure, but I work closely with the guy that does, so I have some idea of what that would entail.

      There are a surprising number of spots where a raise can get blocked or bottlenecked. Without knowing the details of your company, it’s hard to say for sure.

      1. cmcinnyc*

        Jadelyn, this is so helpful. I just got a meh-ish raise after a couple of years of big raises to fix a parity issue. I’m still kind of “behind” and this meh raise is still ok, just not great. My boss said it could possibly be revisited in 6 months, and talked about raising it to our new division head at that time. This breakdown helps me think of questions for my boss about what might be blocking a raise instead of just focusing on my own performance and trying to earn a raise.

        1. Coffee Bean*

          Seconding cmcinnyc here – this really does help understand the different types of roadblocks that can happen within a company. Thank you Jadelyn.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Happy to help! Being in HR and “comp-adjacent”, I see a lot of the behind-the-scenes conversations and negotiations and politicking and other maneuvering that goes into allocating salary budgets and raises. I can’t share the details with the people it’s affecting at my org, but I can at least help draw back the curtain a little in general terms for folks outside my org. :)

        2. Jadelyn*

          Ooh, you’ve got a new division head and an existing parity issue they’ve just finished fixing? Yeah, I’d guess it’s top-level politicking getting in your way here, with maybe a bit of comp structure issues thrown in for good measure.

          Definitely see if you can get your boss to explain why it’s being blocked – but also be prepared for the answer to be “that’s confidential” or something to that effect. If we had staff negotiating pay issues who asked why their raise is being held up, if there’s *any* politicking involved, the answer is going to be “because reasons” basically, since they don’t want to air upper management’s dirty laundry. *rolls eyes*

          And of course, the unfortunate truth is that there’s no guarantee that this *is* a real blockage and your boss isn’t just saying that because he’s avoiding taking responsibility for his decision not to give it to you (for whatever reason). But pressing for reasons might help that come out, too, depending on how your boss answers. I wish you luck!

    7. Artemesia*

      In my experience (not in finance) when bosses say this, chances are always good that they have in fact not done a thing to get you more money. Maybe they know it is feckless or maybe they are too lazy or don’t want to burn their capital, but I bet they have not in fact been strongly advocating for the raise but are shining you on. At this point, looking elsewhere is the key to getting paid better; if you can’t find a better job that pays more you don’t have to tip your hand or take a job you don’t want, but it seems clear you will not be well compensated where you are.

    8. Lauren*

      I would respond, thank you for being blunt with me about this. I appreciate your honesty, and ask if they will be a reference for you while you begin looking for a new job. Let them freak out, and say back to them – but you said this isn’t possible – i appreciate how honest you were with me and I’m being honest with you. I want market rate, and I’m not willing to keep compromising / waiting for something that I can get elsewhere. It is what it is. As you said, it won’t be approved. I tried, you tried on my behalf already. When I find another job, I’ll give 3 weeks notice – but i’ll start doing some transition document now.

      Then get up, and thank them again and leave the room.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I wouldn’t tell them I was planning on leaving, especially not being in finance – finance departments sometimes walk departing employees out the day they give notice. No, it’s best to make a mental note of it, tell yourself you’re leaving, job search like crazy, and then put in notice when you have another job in hand.

    9. ..Kat..*

      I recommend that you say some version of the following to your manager: “I am being paid below market rate (make sure you know what market rate is), in fact, I am being paid less than people at this company who do my same job with my same title. Yet, you are telling me that I cannot get a raise? That if I want to be properly compensated for my work that I will need to find a position at a different company?”

      Are you female? Are the people making more than you in the same position male? Are you in the USA? Might be illegal. IANAL.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Also, point out that you are being told that you are excelling at this level (if indeed you are).

  2. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

    My terrible employee has handed their notice in this week! They were about halfway through their (informal) pip, and not doing well, so they were likely going to be going formal at the end of it. I am still uncertain as to whether they are genuinely that incompetent, actually horrendously lazy or honestly convinced that I was an evil demon boss for actually expecting them to follow a key job process correctly 90% of the time.
    They are currently working their notice, well I say working… they have been consistently telling me they have completed tasks, I check them and they haven’t been completed. They then act extremely put out when I ask them to redo the task. My old manager enabled a lot of his behaviours, but when they left I took over managing him, and my temp manager/mentor sees things my way (ie that he is a liability to the department). He has 3 weeks left, but my temp boss is speaking to grand boss to see if there is anything we can do to push him out eg garden leave. As at the moment I’m having to redo a significant amount of their work as it’s so poor quality, that it’d be easier for me to have done it in the first place!

    This individual is very popular in the department, they are charming and gregarious, and I imagine if I didn’t have to manage his work I’d like him too. The individuals on the floor that he is particularly close to have been decidedly frosty to me of late – I imagine that his version of this tale is that I’m a mean micromanager and that I’ve put him on an action plan because I hate him and that I’m not accepting of his working styles.

    Anyway, my question is:
    What script should I use when people say things to me like ‘Oh I bet you’ll miss him’ or ‘he’ll be a difficult team member to replace’ – when in truth this was one of the biggest things I hated about my job! I’m aware he was popular on the floor, but I don’t think anyone was really aware of how bad his performance was! I’m happy to give some sort of vague pleasantries, but also I feel like all his gossiping about me has likely turned some people against me and I don’t know if I should address it?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      “Well, I wish him the best.”

      You don’t have to directly address the substance of what was said, just make a pleasant vague response. Like saying “Well that certainly is a baby.”

          1. Michaela Westen*

            That might be a little too positive. Is a person who doesn’t do his work really a team member?

          2. Elitist Semicolon*

            A co-worker once said, “Whenever there was a problem, she was there” in a reference check for a particularly whiny colleague.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      There’s no need to tell people how awful he was, you can simply mildly agree with these comments, or turn the conversation to either “we have some candidates in mind” or “we’re looking for candidates, so please keep an eye out!”

      1. Antilles*

        Agreed.
        In fact, I don’t think you even could address the substance of his gossiping or try to set the record straight. There’s nothing you can say that’ll change people’s minds – at best, it’ll look like you’re a little petty and can’t let stuff go; at worst, it’ll be interpreted as a confirmation of exactly what he was saying.
        That said, you don’t really need to. It’ll die down very quickly after he joins his new company and loses contact with people. Just take the high road, continue to be competent and professional, and let this roll off.

        1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

          I do hope it dies down!
          I really don’t want to seem petty – it’s just so frustrating as we have done so much to help him and he’s really not put the effort it. It’s been nearly a year of performance issues before it went informal, and several major mistakes/errors – in a private company he’d have been fired. As we’re Govt that wasn’t an option, however, even by our govt body standars we’ve been very lenient (and the policy is already lenient!)

      2. Sheik Yurbooti*

        Unfortunately, you cannot share with the team the reasons he is being fired. It’s part of being a manager. I understand you want to be liked but the truth may never be known. You can only give generalities like “We’re moving on with a replacement.” I also think turning it around on people would be a good way to deflect: “If you have any great candidates for referral, I would be happy to see their resume!”

    3. Aunt Vixen*

      Sounds like a great time for a noncommittal “It sure will be different here without him!”

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I love that because it can be interpreted either way (you liked him or you didn’t).

        2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

          My stepfather used to describe unwanted gifts as “the finest example of its kind”. I think “He was one of a kind!” is the equivalent for an unwanted person.

    4. AnonEMoose*

      Regarding the scripts to use with people – is there a quality or something about him that you actually do appreciate and will miss? Maybe you could use that to come up with a few phrases to use. Something like “People are really going to miss his sense of humor/kindness/whatever.” Or “It’s always tough when someone leaves, for sure!” Or “I’m hoping he finds a great opportunity and everything turns out great for him!”

      Basically, you just need to acknowledge that this is the way this person feels, but you don’t have to pretend to be super sad.

      1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        I could probably go with enthusiasm, as he was very enthusiastic, just not about his assigned work!

        1. tamarack and fireweed*

          I do wonder, though, whether there weren’t a few people who are less positive about him. Someone who is truly awful isn’t usually just awful to their supervisor. Or is the job of a kind where there is no interaction between co-workers, where no one else’s task depends on that employee’s task being executed correctly and in a timely manner?

    5. MtnLaurel*

      If it were me, I’d just do a simple agreement on the “difficult to replace” (“he sure will!”) or on the “I bet you’ll miss him”, respond with something like “I’ll certainly miss his (endearing personal quality unrelated to his work).” Like, “I’ll miss his smiling face/silly jokes/cute ties.”

      1. SheLooksFamiliar*

        I’ve been in RDOD’s position before, and could NOT make myself give compliments to my departing troublesome-yet-popular employee. When my colleagues said, ‘I’m sure you’ll miss him,’ or ‘He’ll be hard to replace,’ or anything else that invited me to agree with their positive comments, I just slowly nodded my head and responded, ‘Mmmm!’

        People who didn’t know the whole story assumed I was agreeing with them, and dropped the subject. Sometimes you don’t need actual words, right?

    6. !*

      I absolutely hate these situations where everyone likes the employee (if they don’t have to work with them!). I have one of those now, but the kicker is that not everyone likes him, he does crappy work (if at all), is inconsiderate, and has even *bragged* that he’s an asshole! Of course he’s been having troubles with his health so my boss says her hands are tied to do anything about him, which I don’t understand because he sucked before his illness and nothing has changed after the fact.

      People from the outside of the situation looking in have no idea how frustrating and demoralizing it is for someone to work with a person like this. And there really is no good way to explain it so that others don’t think it’s a personal issue!

      Good for you for trying to make a positive change for those who have to work with this terrible employee, I wish my boss would do the same. :(

    7. Hiring Mgr*

      I would try to reframe this internally from “he’s probably spreading terrible lies about me” to “he’s probably a good guy who just wasn’t a fit for this role, which he realized also”

      As others have said, once he’s gone people will forget about it anyway…

    8. QCI*

      “I bet he’ll be hard to replace”
      ~”I certainly hope so!”
      Probably not as professional as AAM.

      1. Autumnheart*

        “He’ll be difficult to replace!”
        “I’m sure he’ll be difficult wherever he ends up.”

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just smile and nod along. Don’t correct them, just say “It’ll be a process to replace anyone who leaves but we’ll get through this transition period!”

    10. LCS*

      I’m a fan of the “Change can certainly be a challenge” sort of response that kind of sounds sympathetic to their “losing him will be hard” comment, but makes it not about the individual specifically. And then it’s a good segue into how change also brings opportunity, what the search/referral process looks like for a replacement, etc.

      1. MaxiesMommy*

        “Yes, it’s hard when (work) friends leave. . . .” So you’re acknowledging their POV, but staying silent on his abilities and attitude as an employee. The “friend” comment is also code for “That’s fine for you but I have a department to run”.

    11. Amethystmoon*

      Had a co-worker like that for 3 years. He was absolutely terrible when it came to accuracy (and this was a data entry job) and totally unreliable as far as completing tasks. I had to stay late and fix his errors a lot of the time, but people liked him because he could be nice and charming. Even though to me privately, he send weird text messages that attempted to be controlling, but I didn’t let him. He never got fired; I changed jobs to not put up with him anymore. You probably aren’t going to be able to change your team member’s minds, as he is probably spreading false information about you when he chats with them.

    13. JennyFair*

      For some reason what springs to mind is Miss Elizabeth Bennett’s response to how her family will bear the departure of the Army Regiment: “I think we shall bear their absence quite well.”

    14. AliceInWonderland*

      I have had a few departures from my team where I was secretly relieved/pleased the individual was leaving. My responses were a cheery “It happens that people move onward and upward! I’m happy for Name. For our team, we’ll be just fine – I’ve already thought of how the work will be distributed, and we’ll have interviews in the coming weeks”.

      1. AliceInWonderland*

        Your team members should feel comforted by diplomacy, and it will make you look bigger if you keep it positive.

    15. OhBehave*

      My first thought was to get rid of him now. Hopefully something can be done such as move him to a different task.
      You really can’t diss him to his peers. You can speak honestly to your equals.
      As to the frosty treatment you are getting, that needs to be addressed if it continues. That will continue if not nipped in the bud! It undermines your authority.

    16. Middle Manager*

      That sucks and I’ve been there. It was one of the hardest things I’ve had to deal with as a manager. I had a poor performer who told anyone who would listen that I was an evil micromanaging jerk. And for awhile I know at least some people believed her. In the end it came out pretty clearly to everyone when she screwed up some data that was key to a lot of people and they all got to experience the consequences of her incompetence and laziness first hand. Even though it sucked to not say anything before when she was bad mouthing me, in the end it was definitely worth it bc I never want to be that person as a manager.

      Maybe once your guy is gone and someone good is in the job people will realize the difference?

    18. Documentor*

      Someone else wrote to this already, but this person is showing the worst reasons for allowing an employee to work out notice – poisoning the well and creating extra work. The bigger issue to frostiness is that the co-workers who do have this person’s number are looking for you to take action. Letting it ‘die on the vine’ shows that you will allow the bad to walk all over a situation. You don’t say whether early termination is an option, but at minimum garden this person or outright get rid of him as soon as you can. This lets everyone move on to the next things, and helps to set a tone of what you won’t tolerate.

  3. ThatGirl*

    Frustrating happening this week that I’m hoping isn’t some larger sign of trouble here. I just moved to a new department that’s not customer-facing and was looking forward to occasionally taking advantage of the company’s work-from-home policy. But on Tuesday we were informed that the company is revoking the “privilege” for everyone – allegedly because some folks either were complaining that they can’t get work done with others out of the office or because people were taking advantage of the policy. There have also been rumors swirling that it wasn’t truly the whole company, just marketing and sales, since other departments don’t seem to have heard about it yet. It also seems to be related to disappointing financial performance, which is not really the fault of any one department—the global supply chain has been hugely affected by the tariffs currently in place, for instance, plus various weather disasters.

    Now, on a personal level, the revocation of WFH doesn’t affect me a great deal — I can use sick time for dr appointments and usually have a little extra PTO if I need it for things like car trouble or vet appointments. We’ll have to figure out how this affects inclement weather, but I’ll manage. But on an employee level, it feels punitive — why should we be punished? It feels both demoralizing and like bad management. And it makes a lot of us wonder why, after lots of talk about employee engagement and retention, they would be taking away perks and privileges, and whether more are potentially on the chopping block.

    There’s a town hall meeting next week which I’m actually going to miss, but we’ll see if more comes out then…

    1. A tester, not a developer*

      My company put something similar in place; when we questioned it as a larger group “no more work from home” turned into “no more regularly scheduled work from home, but of course you can ask your manager for one-offs like bad weather or waiting for a service person”. Hopefully that’ll be what happens for you as well.

    2. MonteCristo85*

      We had an interesting thing where a Anti-WFH policy was put in place on our network, but not announced to anyone. It was very restrictive, stating that every single instance must be approved, in writing, by the CEO. Some people found it, and there was a general outcry (we are a start up, very flexible, people work crazy hours, but is has always been ok to do it from home, plus we have sales people that don’t live in the state). It made it up to the CEO, who squashed it immediately. The policy was completed scraped, and we are back to being adults who can manage their own time and schedules. It was a weird interlude, not sure what was the purpose of the original document, I guess someone was flexing?

    3. Dana B.S.*

      I’m not really sure why you mention doctor’s appointments, car trouble, or vet appointments because WFH wouldn’t apply anyway since you’re attending to personal matters. Inclement weather is always a gigantic hassle at all workplaces.

      On its own, this doesn’t sound like an indicator of trouble. It could be a sign of poor management, but it also could just be related to the fact that these jobs really don’t fit for WFH and the experiment failed. It’s too difficult to judge when you’re new to an organization.

      1. Catherine de Medici*

        It’s an issue when you live in a city with long commutes. I telework whenever I have a doctor’s appointment or vert appointment so that I only need to take an hour off, not half a day or more depending on appointment time. Smart managers would allow this so people can still be productive and not waste what little leave time they likely have. I have zero patience for not-friendly telework places when you don’t need to physically be in the office to do your work.

        2. Dana B.S.*

          All of my jobs have been in a city with long commutes, but I generally work in companies with a natural state of distrust towards employees. It’s rubbing off on me. I wouldn’t dream of doing car maintenance any day except for Saturday.

          1. Catherine de Medici*

            My current agency (fed) is super flexible. Core hours are only 10-2:30 Tuesday-Thursday and any four consecutive hours on Mondays and Fridays. As long as you cover core hours with work or vacation time and put in 80 hours every pay period, you can come in or leave whenever without needing approval. We also have credit hours that you can roll over if you work more than 80 hours. With telework, as long as my work is getting done, my boss doesn’t care what we do.

            I got offered a promotion in a different office but same agency that I turned down because they have a jerk for a branch chief that only allows telework once a week and has the staff meetings on Friday afternoons. Both of these violate the agency-wide policies and I guarantee they are worse in other ways.

            1. nonymous*

              Varies by agency and how the various heads choose to interpret the same policy. Our core hours are 9-3P and some of the supervisors put up a big stink about remote workers in other time zones. Are core hours in HQ timezone or local? Timekeeping policies say it’s tied to duty station, but there were enough loud complainers that my start time is 6A so that people could “see” that my IM status as available about the same time that many people get into work where they are located, which is 2hrs ahead of me.

          2. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Sometimes the car simply does not cooperate, and the battery is dead in your driveway on a Tuesday. And it’s the alternator. Good Times!

          3. DC Weekend*

            I’m so fascinated by this (in a genuinely curious, non-judgmental way!). I’m the exact opposite and would never WFH without doing a few life things when it was quiet. It’s one of the perks of WFH. I’ll note that I WFH rarely and my work is such that as long as i am paying attention to email and get things done in a timely manner, nothing else really matters. I live in DC in case that makes a difference as well.

            1. LizB*

              Yeah, when I’ve had positions where I can WFH, I often do a couple life things on a WFH day — it usually takes up about as much time as I spend on an office day chatting with coworkers, refilling my coffee, and all the other little distractions of office life. Or sometimes I’ll start working at the time I would normally start my commute, and then take a chunk of time in the middle of the day. As long as everything gets done and I’m responsive to email and phone, it doesn’t matter.

        3. EH*

          This. I don’t even have that long a commute, but if I have anything going on in the town where I live, it adds at least 45min to my out-of-office time if I go in to work rather than working from home. I live on the east side of town and commute to a town further to the east, so when I have appointments in the main part of my town, it makes no sense to go in.

          For example, for a vet trip, I’d have to drive home (20 min under ideal conditions), pick up the cat (~10min depending on how cooperative the cat feels), drive to the vet (15min), have the vet appointment, then do those previous steps in reverse vs just driving to the vet and back. 90min plus the duration of the appointment, vs 30min plus the duration of the appointment.

      2. ThatGirl*

        I’m not new to the org – just my current role. I’ve been here for two years.

        And I mention those things because they have been, in the past, a perfectly valid reason to work from home – I could work from home, run to the vet for 30 minutes, then come back home and finish work. Or drop my car off for new tires, get a ride home and work there the rest of the day.

        1. Dana B.S.*

          Sorry, misunderstood your newness.

          Also, I want your vet. I feel like it’s always a big hassle to go to the vet, but I got an old pup.

      3. Aquawoman*

        People in my org WFH all the time because they have doctor visits or the like. I’m in DC where the average commute is 45 minutes each way. If someone has a 10 AM doctor appointment in the burbs 10 minutes from their house, and works from home, they work a full day; if they can’t WFH, that’s 3-4 hours of leave (the couple of hours before 10 AM + the length of the appointment).

        1. Mama Bear*

          Exactly. I used to be able to pop over, do a thing, and come back but today I could not justify both the thing and the commute time (easily an hour round trip). Rumor here is that someone seriously abused the privilege a few years ago, so the option for routine WFH days has been cut. The vacation time is generous, but it goes quickly when you have appointments.

      4. Overeducated*

        If you have, say, an hour+ commute, then when you take leave to deal with doctor’s appointments, car trouble, etc. it is a lot easier to minimize the amount of time off or even make up the time on the same day if you have the option to WFH. As someone who has frequent doctor’s appointments close to home right now and the ability to telework weekly, I’m finding that I can simply make up the 1-2 hours of work missed in the time I’d normally be on the road (with managerial approval of the change in hours), and it’s so incredibly helpful.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Precisely. This is Chicagoland, and while my current commute is short, a lot of people drive at least 30 minutes; 45-60 isn’t uncommon.

      5. Anax*

        I have a very short commute, but I also like to WFH when I have medical appointments – I tend to have anxiety before them, and it’s easier to be productive in my own space, with a cat in my lap and a letsplay on the tv.

      6. peachie*

        Not sure if this is the case with ThatGirl, but it’s common in my office to WFH part/all of the day if you have an appointment (e.g., if you live far from the office and would lose a ton of time going back and forth, if the appointment is close to the end of the day and it’s easier to WFH for the rest of the day after, etc.).

    4. peachie*

      Ugh, that is so frustrating. I hate when employers don’t treat their employees like adults — i.e., trust them to do their job and actually deal with performance problems rather than making broad punitive policies.

    5. RabbitRabbit*

      Half of my department (not under my manager) used to have a WFH policy but it got removed due to productivity issues. However, as my manager noted they weren’t given any tools to help them succeed (like additional equipment as needed, etc.) and a lot of technical issues were behind at least some of the productivity problems. Since then, their manager (and the one above the whole department) are gone, and they’re hoping to re-evaluate and move back to WFH options.

      Meanwhile, my division is facing the need to switch to a partial WFH schedule simply due to running out of space because of expansion, so we’re giving our requests for hardware (generally laptops, docking stations at the desks, and second monitors for home use) to our manager.

    6. Currently Bill*

      The stigma around WFH is one reason I don’t like to use the term. I prefer to describe it as working remotely. That then encompasses folks on business travel, at client sites, out of area sales people and more traditional WFH folks. It also press more emphasis on the idea of work rather than the idea of being home.

      1. Mama Bear*

        I think you have a good point. We have a “spare office” where people who come in from other offices work. Technically they are not remote from the company, but they are remote from their own desks, as are the BD folks who are always out and about. It’s more about the flex than the location.

    7. JustaTech*

      This happened at my company (where there were a couple of senior tech people who kind of only stayed because they were allowed very generous WFH, where home was often another state or country), and there was a lot of grousing, people spent more time in their offices or at their desks until whatever high-up either got over the “butts in seats” or got distracted by something else, and it went back to “ask your boss, get your work done, don’t be excessive”.

      So hopefully it will blow over. Part of what did it for us was a terrible snowstorm, in a city that doesn’t really get snow. People had to WFH, work got done, the world didn’t end, and the bosses stopped fussing.

    8. Old Millenial*

      I find that generally the anti-wfh policy just hurts the business.

      Some examples:
      My old company banned wfh snow days. So instead of having safe employees working from 8am-5pm or later at home, you had staff getting in between 9:30 and 10, several wrecks, and leaving promptly at 5pm ot sneaking out early for safety reasons.

      Just yesterday I was 2 hours late, because I was previously given a hard time using WFH. So rather then getting a full day’s or more work from me they are getting 6 hrs.

      Banning ot eliminating WFH “cause others complain” is the epitome of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    9. Garland not Andrews*

      Have you had a change in senior leadership? When the administration changed the Secretary of the Department, he instituted much more limited telework. Many people who would WFH 3-4 days per week and only come in 1-2 days, now are only allowed to WFH 1-1.5 days per week.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yes, our CEO left a few months ago; we were also purchased by a large German multinational last year. I’m sure that has something to do with it, and is also the reason our finances are getting more scrutiny now.

        Aside from a few full-time remote employees, though, I think most people were only WFH 1 day a week (except for special circumstances). I really wouldn’t mind that much if they said it would be a case by case basis or only occasionally in limited circumstances, but we’ve been told the ban is basically universal.

    10. Lamplighter*

      This happend ten years ago so maybe WFH is more accepted. When I was promoted to a new exempt role in the company’s regional office, I was issued a laptopwith security on it and a Blackeberry (!) since I was now required to travel to sites I supported from time to time. However, I was told that I could not work from home. Now if I spent 10 hours on a site, I was still expected to handle my usual work from my hotel room into the night but not from home. This was the policy set by our Director who had apparently never heard the old adage about what is good for the goose is good for the gander. She worked from her home, 1500 miles and a time zone away from headquarters, when she wasn’t unnecessarily flitting around to job sites; she dropped in the main office for 4 or so days a month.

      About a year into this, a lot of bad winter weather hit –massive amounts of snow preceded or followed by ice. The region had been paralyzed on and off for several week. I had missed several days of work (I live 30 miles away and my car was lousy on snow and ice) and was catching hell from my boss in the main office for not resonding to issues as fast as she wanted. One evening when a foot plus of snow was expected overnigh, I took my laptop and some work files home. Eighteen inches fell that night into the next morning. I worked on some files, went out to dig out my car when the sun came out, and waited for the snowplow to clear the road. By the time I could leave, everything that had melted in the sun was refreezing; the governor declared a state of emergency and ordered evryone to stay off the roads. I took care of some more pressing work items from my kitchen and cc ‘d boss on some of them; I also put some hours on my timesheet. A couple of days later, my boss called me to say that she told Director that I had worked from home and Director had me written up. I was dinged because I tried to keep up with my work. Their reasoning: It was not “fair” to the non-exempts who had to use leave when stuck at home in the snow. I should have done nothing and used up a day of my leave. A couple of years later, Director screwed up something big which had to be disclosed to employees and she was “resigned” a few months later.

    11. Preach it!*

      We just got a new Exec VP (formerly with a Name car corporation) whose first move was to require “all butts in seats all the time”. We’ll be lucky to work from home during snowstorms. In six months we’ve already lost two people to leaving the Department and one person retiring early.

      We’re a Fortune 300 company and this has caused a lot of other people to start to mumble about resumes and retirement. This EVP has done more to squash morale than her VP predecessor did in 10 years (and he was required to fire 8 people due to financial reasons).

  4. Kelly*

    I have a question regarding internships (in MA if it makes a difference) – my brother is in his last semester of college, and interning for a small company. The internship is full time, unpaid, but counts as a full semester of credits for his school. He plans to work in a very niche industry (film and media). The internship was supposed to end yesterday the 8th (as well as the semester) however this company planned a work trip that he was invited on for the week and they will be back tomorrow. Since his internship is officially over and the trip goes past the semester end date, they promised to pay him for the 2 extra days as they weren’t back in time.

    My question is, are they legally obligated to pay him for this? He was afraid they may not actually pay (since they promised previously that they would pay him for working overtime on a different day, but they have not). And how would he go about this? He has nothing in writing. Should he take it up with his school?

    I would’ve asked this last week but the trip was last minute, he didn’t know until Friday that they’d be traveling out of state on the following Monday. My family advised him not to go but he felt pressured to go – and thinks this is normal for the industry.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      He should take it up with the boss, not the school. And–while I have feelings about unpaid internships–that’s what this is. If he’s out of pocket for all the expenses of the trip, I can see both feeling pressured and the argument for saying no anyhow. But if they covered his expenses, then the internship extending a day for what sounds like a valuable experience people entering this field would line up to have is just not a hill to die on. Similarly if there’s been one overtime day over the course of months–a lot of people would frame that as going the same mile as the other people in the office, everyone buckling down to get the Teapot Project out the door on time.

      2. YetAnotherUsername*

        I’m with Dipthong here – it sounds like an awesome opportunity. If it were me I would go on the assumption I wouldn’t get paid and consider any pay as a bonus.

        If course if he has reason to believe this trip won’t be any benefit to his chosen career then thís advice isn’t valid, but it seems likely to me that a work trip with a company in his chosen niche career would give him some fodder for his resume / interviews, even if he ends up not getting paid.

    2. designbot*

      I would follow up with the person who promised to pay him and ask them to show him how to fill out their timecard for the extra days. There may be some legitimate paperwork he’s missing, and they may not realize that he wouldn’t have the first clue how to fill it out.

    3. NothingIsLittle*

      Did he get the internship through one of his professors? If so, he can ask them for advice and they might advocate for him with the company. Other than that, I agree with Diphthong that whether he paid out-of-pocket or whether the company paid for him will change his response. I can’t speak to the legality of it, but if the company paid his way, he can probably ask once about how he should submit those hours to them and ask what additional paperwork he’ll need to fill out, but then he may want to let it go rather than risk getting a poor reference. (I say may because I’m not a lawyer and not certain of the specifics.) I suspect that trying to retain a lawyer would cost more than what he’d receive anyway, so I’m not sure how much the legality matters in terms of actually being able to act on it.

      Potentially the school could advocate for him in some way, but if it’s the school I’m thinking of, they can’t change the number of credits he received for the internship and won’t risk losing internship slots at the company over one student.

    4. SamSoo*

      If his internship is effectively done, why does he feel pressured to go? Just to keep things smooth in case he needs these people later? Just curious.

      1. Kelly*

        He wants to use them as references and thought they might not give a good reference if he skipped on going

    5. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t understand. If his internship is unpaid, how are they even going to pay him. He’s presumably not in the finance system to be paid.

      I feel like I’m missing something here.

    6. Not My Money*

      As someone who pays film and media, I agree that he should talk to his company supervisor about what paperwork needs to be completed in order to get paid. Every project has a start packet with forms for both the entertainment payroll company and the production company – if he hasn’t filled anything out there’s no money in process for him. I couldn’t tell you the number of times someone has called looking for a check when they never filled out the paperwork or a time card. And the internship paperwork isn’t sufficient.

  5. Former Usher*

    My megacorp is in the process of removing all wall clocks on its campus. The stated reason is to save money on batteries and on the labor required to update the time twice a year. They’ve even created a new corporate policy to govern the purchase of any new clocks, with multiple managers required for any purchase. Somehow this feels even more disappointing than the various cuts to our benefits over the years.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I wonder how much labor it takes to remove and dispose of all of the wall clocks versus the updating and batteries…

      1. Antilles*

        A little less the first time, but you only need to do it once:
        >When you replace the batteries or change the clock, you have to take the clock off the wall, do whatever, then put it back on the wall.
        >When you dispose of the clock, you take it off the wall and toss it in the trash barrel.
        So the first time, sure, it’s a fairly minor time savings…but then every six months from now until eternity, that’s effort that doesn’t have to be spent.

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      Whaaat? That’s ridiculous. Even their stated reason is ridiculous, because batteries + labour can’t be THAT much money, can they? Then to write an actual policy requiring multiple managers…yeesh.

      I’m sorry to tell you this, and I’m sure you knew this already, but you work for a bunch of loons.

      1. Mediamaven*

        So, if they have to cut budgets would it be preferable to cut OP’s pay? How do you know they are loons or how much money is being saved. No one even uses clocks anymore. They are obsolete. Sometimes budgets cuts have to happen and they likely no what they are doing.

        1. JustaTech*

          Uh, I use a wall clock every time I’m in the lab because I need to record times accurately and I can’t see my watch under my gloves and I sure can’t be digging out my phone.
          So people do still use them for work, and not just for watching in boring meetings.
          That said, I do replace the batteries and change the time myself.

        2. Librarian of SHIELD*

          How much money do you suppose the company is saving by not buying a pack of AA batteries twice a year?

          The skeptic in me immediately assumed they didn’t want staff to know what time it is so they’ll stay at work longer.

        4. tamarack and fireweed*

          Uh, raising hand as someone who wants a wall clock. Just today I looked around my new office and thought I should bring one in. I understand that a company may want to save the hassle of dealing with them (we had some in the past that were supposed to auto-update themselves at each DST change, but had a tendency to get stuck and confused…), but useless they aren’t.

      2. Michaela Westen*

        This is such a small expense I would be concerned about whether the company is going under.
        No matter how big or small it is, the expense for batteries and time changes can’t be much percentage of their total costs.

    4. New Job So Much Better*

      We have no clocks, except for one in the kitchen. We all use our computer clocks.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1

        I mean, there’s clocks on the kitchen microwaves, and I think I saw one in an obscure corner, but we don’t use public clocks for anything.

    5. Toodie*

      So you’re … ticked? (Sorry, couldn’t help myself. I would also hate to lose all wall clocks.)

    6. LCL*

      Forgive me, but this is hilarious. The company took away something that many people use, but you can get a replacement, if you follow their new policy! and go through the purchasing process. It is reassuring to know that my workplace isn’t the only one that makes new policies that increase workload but don’t have any positive effect to the customers.

      1. Chaordic One*

        In my office none of the clocks are set to the correct time. They’re either fast or slow and quite a few of them are still set to daylight savings time. The clocks are screwed into the wall and you can’t just stand on a chair to take them down and reset them. Some of the people in my office have gone and bought their own clocks that they have mounted on their cubicle walls.

    7. Newington*

      I’m pretty sure I have adult ADHD, or some similar sort of neurodivergence.

      I’m pursuing an official diagnosis through my GP, although it has to be referred to the local mental health team which can have a long wait. I’ve told work about this and they’ve been wonderfully supportive. But even if things go smoothly it’ll be a long time till I can get medication.

      Some days I can’t get into work. Some days I can get here but barely do any work. The best I can describe it is that it feels like I’m trying to push my head through a wall. The wall’s right there, the other side of the wall is right there, it’s simple enough to understand the task but… it’s impossible. Over the years I’ve got good at ‘looking busy’ and can usually rely on having enough ‘good days’ to meet deadlines. But I’m now in a job I really care about and although they’re being lovely I fear I’ll wear their patience down eventually. (One thing they’ve done that has helped is to let me switch between tasks so that I don’t spend more than a day or two on the same thing.)

      Are there people here who’ve been in this situation? Any advice? I’m not looking for general “how to be motivated” things – I’ve probably tried them all – but specifically things that have worked for neurodivergent folks?

      2. Human Form of the 100 Emoji*

        I am not diagnosed, but I have many symptoms of adult ADD. I’m not sure what kind of job you have, but I’ve found that physical tasks (eg, organize physical files or move all these boxes) are way easier for me to complete and focus on than abstract or computer-based tasks (eg research or data entry) Maybe you could ask your supervisor to take on tasks like that to break up the more abstract ones, or find a way to relate abstract tasks to more physical ones?

        1. Newington*

          Mm, not many physical tasks in my job (coding and tech writing), although I’ll do the odd mailroom/milk run/walk round the block when I need a wander. That was basically the reason I’ve spent years doing admin assistant jobs that I’m way overqualified for, though.

      3. Matilda Jefferies*

        The best I can describe it is that it feels like I’m trying to push my head through a wall. The wall’s right there, the other side of the wall is right there, it’s simple enough to understand the task but… it’s impossible.

        This is the best description I’ve ever heard of how ADHD is for me! And it’s so, so frustrating. Some days I just can’t hit that Start button in my brain, and no amount of Pomodoro or anything else will kick me into gear. Mostly I do the same as you – switch tasks when I can, and count on having more good days than bad to balance it out overall. I’m also going to my doctor to talk about increasing my meds, so hopefully that will help.

        I have no other advice, but lots of empathy! If you’re not already familiar with it, www-additudemag-dot-com is a great resource for all things ADHD.

      5. Syfygeek*

        I was just diagnosed this week and out on medication. I filled out 11 pages of questions, took 3 computer tests, and then met with the Doc.

        ” Over the years I’ve got good at ‘looking busy’ and can usually rely on having enough ‘good days’ to meet deadlines. But I’m now in a job I really care about and although they’re being lovely I fear I’ll wear their patience down eventually…” could have been written by me. I described it as having a house of cards, and being terrified that a card would fall and everyone would know I did not have it under control.

        2 days on medication, and I have not only started boring tasks, but finished them. When before I would start enough to make it look like I was making good progress, but really I’d go on to something else when I got bored. Or distracted.
        Good luck!

        1. Newington*

          This sounds amazing. Congratulations on the diagnosis.
          I got a questionnaire from my GP that had me score a bunch of questions from 1 to 5 and I was like “5, 5, 5, 5, 5….” for everything except the drug abuse (and there but for the grace of not making friends with the wrong kids, etc.) He referred me to the local mental health team, who sent me basically an essay question about how it affects my life… which I didn’t do, because DOING THINGS LIKE THAT IS REALLY HARD, THAT’S WHY I’M ON YOUR LIST. So they assumed I must be fine and took me off the waiting list, and I’m now gathering the spoons to go back to my GP and start again. (I can only imagine how much more awful this is if you’re having to fork out cash at every turn, too.)

          1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

            In the U.S., a lot of ADHD meds are considered controlled substances, so you can’t just put in an automated refill through the pharmacy website; you have to contact your doctor or psychiatrist every 30 days and have them send in a new prescription. You can’t contact them too early because your insurance company won’t permit a refill while you still have a lot of medication left, but if you leave it too late, you’ll run out of meds.

            Guess what people with ADHD are really bad at?

            Every single ADHD person I know has had multiple times of “Oh crap, I just took my last pill and haven’t requested a refill yet” and then two or three unmedicated days while waiting for the prescription to be submitted and filled. And then there are constant medication shortages, so your pharmacy might need another two or three days to get the pills in…

            The whole system seems designed to make ADHD people miserable. It’s really awful. But it’s still better than being unmedicated.

            1. Newington*

              Yeah, this happens to me regularly with my other medication, and all I have to do is fill out an online form on my GP’s website. (You’ve just reminded me to do so – thanks!) I also need monthly-ish blood tests for a clotting issue and keep missing them. (Reminder apps are helpful but not unbeatable.)
              I know we shouldn’t get too political on here but thank heck for the NHS; this could all be so. Much. Worse.

      6. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Does physical stimming help you focus? If it’s not the kind of workplace where you can use a spinner or a fidget cube out in the open, you can get a bumpy cushion to put on your chair that lets you stim just by sitting or moving very slightly (not noticeably). The search keyword is “sensory seat cushion”. Or string Bouncy Bands under your desk so you have a big rubber band you can bounce with your feet where no one can see. Or ask to replace your chair with a yoga ball or get a standing desk for ergonomic reasons. A weighted lap blanket might also be useful. A lot of these things are marketed for autistic people (especially kids) but there’s a ton of autism/ADHD overlap, so see if something like that works for you. And then expense it! If your workplace is accommodating, they should cover low-cost, low-effort accommodations like this.

        Caffeine is the poor man’s Adderall, but you probably already know that. Don’t be shy about measuring your coffee intake in pots if that’s what keeps you focused and calm.

        If your workplace is lovely, trust them to continue being lovely, and to let you know if they’re starting to be concerned about your productivity. Ask for your tasks to be put in SMART goal format (Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant and Timely), or reframe them that way yourself, so you can reassure yourself by saying “The teapot report was due at noon Tuesday and I got it in at noon Tuesday, and no one needs to know I did it all between 10 a.m. and 11:59” and the like. The more you can see your job in terms of “Did I deliver the deliverable, y/n”, the less anxious you’ll be about the accommodations you need to deliver those deliverables, especially if there’s a clear before accommodation/after accommodation difference in your performance. (And the more muscle you’ll have to push back if your manager starts saying “We need you to stop taking so many WFH days” or “Do we really have to pay for this weighted lap blanket? That seems like a personal item” or whatever.)

        Good luck!

        1. Newington*

          I’ve tried lowering the caffeine but I haven’t tried upping it. Worth a few shots, I guess – thanks!

      7. Phoenix*

        Newington, my diagnoses are anxiety and depression, but I also have a ton of issues getting work done when my mental health is suffering. Something helpful for me has been to radically chunk tasks into super small pieces, so I can feel the momentum begin to pick up and then I feel like I can keep going. Like, if I have to send an email I feel worried about, it might be: Open my email app. Yay, I did it! Look up the person’s email address. Yay, I did it again! Put their email in the “To” box. Hurray! Three steps down! It felt stupid the first few times I did it, but now it is my favorite way to feel motivated – it gets me out of that downward shame spiral and gets me into a place where I’m celebrating what I am doing towards work goals. Similarly, stopping mid-morning or mid-day to make a “Already Done” instead of a “To Do” list helps me feel like I am DOING things, just maybe not the highest priority things, and helps lessen my worries about everything I haven’t done yet.

        Also, I had a great therapist tell me that my fears about other people being disappointed in me in the future are future fears, and have not happened yet, and maybe never will. So a reminder that if no one is telling you that they are disappointed in you, assume the positive if you can – that no one is disappointed and you’re doing okay!

        Your mileage may vary with your own diagnosis and set of hurdles, but best of luck – you’re not alone out there!

        1. another anon*

          +1 to all the above, I also recommend Marla Cummins’ email newsletter, and the “How to ADHD” youtube channel.

          I use a simplified bullet journal which helps.

          I totally relate to the meds refill issue. My current doc wants me to skip meds on the weekends, which has been challenging because I still need to get chores and stuff done. It’s been a little easier to skip at least one day since I left ToxicJob with Ridiculous Commute. It does help with the refill issue a bit, too.

          Another thing that works for me when I forget meds or am out, or when I had to switch insurance was taking small sips of a 5 hour energy every few hours, and only taking 1/2 the bottle per day instead of chugging the whole thing as directed. It’s way more expensive, and not good for long term use, but ok in a pinch.

          Good luck! You are not alone.

        2. Newington*

          Ah, I’ve tried small subgoals with hourly deadlines but the even smaller ones is a new idea. Thanks!

      8. Food Sherpa*

        Your description fits my ADHD coupled with chronic severe depression. In fact, I am procrastinating right now when I need to get some reconciliations completed. I try to reward myself with little things once I’ve finished something. Reading ‘Ask a Manager’, reading news, taking a walk, making a nice cuppa- these are all things I consider a reward. Find rewards that will work with your job and spend your day being nice to yourself instead of beating yourself up.
        You mentioned Pomodoro method, I use a free app called Forest to help me. It’s loosely based on the Pomodoro method and you get to plant real trees.

    8. Jess*

      Back in the late 80s or early 90s, Delta saved about $7 million per year by getting rid of the decorative parsley on its meals. My guess is that your megacorp is probably saving a bit more money than you’d think (especially if union labor is involved). And it could be one of those things where someone said, “we can’t afford X unless you can find a way to pay for it in the existing budget,” and X may be something that even you might choose/prefer over wall clocks.

      Just another perspective.

      1. Grapey*

        +1. Most people carry a phone or are near a computer in an office setting nowadays.

        All the wall clocks at my job are a little bit off (early/late) in one way or another and most people check their phone/laptop to see if the wall clock is even correct.

        1. Kathenus*

          Interesting perspective on the clocks being off.

          I wonder if inaccuracy is one of the reasons? If people are using – “I wasn’t late, the clock in the lobby said it was still break time” or something similar might have become an issue?

      2. NothingIsLittle*

        Well, if no one requested the clocks, that’s certainly possible. But how many levels of managers are we talking about with the new clock policy? Because they may end up paying more in the time those managers are wasting on reviewing clock requests.

      3. Pippa K*

        I think it was American Airlines, $40,000, and one olive from each salad in first class. There’s another story about which airlines did or did not slice limes into thinner slices to save money, but the olive story is the best documented. Sometimes the little things matter – but sometimes they don’t matter as much as people think. There’s a reason ‘penny wise and pound foolish’ is a saying. (Ok, a fairly antique one at this point, but still.) My employer likes to save money by making us buy our own printer cartridges, but there’s always enough money for outside consultants. Who, come to think of it, probably came up with the printer cartridge idea.

        1. Michaela Westen*

          “Penny wise pound foolish” is our corporation’s m.o.
          Buy your own printer cartridges? From your own personal money??? Oh HELL no.

    9. Rebecca*

      I have a clock story! About 20 years ago, at my old weird company, I got moved to an office by myself, and it had been pretty much stripped bare by the previous occupant. At that time, company had closed a ton of factory locations, other buildings, etc. and was downsizing. There were literally stacks of all sorts of things, clocks included, stuffed in storage. I asked for one of the spare electric clocks for my space. Answer, No, we can’t spare it. There was literally no reason other than they just wanted to be jerks about it. So, a few weeks later, I was in “big box store beginning with W” and happened to see clocks on a clearance table. It was a fishing motif clock, complete with a bass photo, lures next to each clock number, a wooden outer ring, it’s actually sort of weird looking, but – it was $4.00. I bought it, stuck a battery in it, and took it to work with me. 20 years later it has occupied every office space I’ve inhabited since, and still keeps perfect time.

      And Clock Hoarder Company buildings and stuff are being sold at auction now. I suspect there are still dozens of clocks in boxes from that time frame. I almost want to go just to see if there are.

      And for my clock, I have to change the battery about once every 2 years or so, and it takes less than 30 seconds to move it an hour back or forward twice per year (OH WHY CAN’T WE JUST STAY ON THE CURRENT TIME!!).

      It probably cost them more money in meeting time, worker hours, and management “managing” that it would cost to just ask someone on that floor to update the clocks twice per year for the next 100 years.

      1. Former Usher*

        I thought about buying my own clock, but the new policy also states that clocks purchased outside the new policy will be confiscated.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yeah, this is weird. Getting rid of their own clocks that they pay for and have to update? Sure, okay. But getting rid of a clock their employee pays for and presumably keeps at their own desk?! What in the world would that accomplish?

            1. DerJungerLudendorff*

              That does support the suspicions that management is doing this for ulterior motives, and the cost is just an excuse.

          2. Mama Bear*

            Funny not funny that you said this. Last year the principal of my child’s school had building maintenance round up all the rugs from all the classrooms. He later claimed no rugs were stolen/thrown out, but survey of teachers said otherwise. I ended up buying a new rug for one of our favorite (and new to the profession) teachers because that was messed up. I guess we should just be grateful that the teacher didn’t have her new rug confiscated, too.

            1. LizB*

              Omg, if those were nice educational/teacher-focused rugs, those things are EXPENSIVE! I would be livid.

        2. Jaydee*

          That is bizarre! If the issue is truly the cost of battery replacement and time changing for daylight saving time (which in a large enough company may be legit), why does buying your own personal clock matter? You would be replacing batteries/setting the time at no cost to them.

          I suspect they really want employees to be unaware of the passage of time. “We’ll show them! They can’t be clock-watchers if there are no clocks to watch! Mwahahahaha!”

          1. Newington*

            In the UK (and the rest of the EU, I think) it’s the law that you have to be able to see a clock from your workstation. The clocks on monitors count for anyone working at a computer.

            I’d guess the motivation is something weird like “people might leave 5 minutes early if their unauthorised clocks are wrong.” It’s still bizarre that they’d ‘confiscate’ anything (is that even legal?)

            1. Capital Laundry Services*

              I have never heard of that law in the UK. Could you give a source/link?

              1. Newington*

                I thought I could, but now all the Google results seem to have be polluted by Brexiters pretending that the EU is forcing us all to wear cuckoo clocks or something

                1. Jaid*

                  Cue me with the thought balloon…of a cuckoo clock on a wrist band, with a bitty bird springing out to chirp.

        3. NothingIsLittle*

          Even if you’re paying for the clock and the batteries?! That screams micromanaging and run now.

        5. Quinalla*

          What? Ok, I already thought this was a little weird, but I could see it, but confiscating outside purchased clocks?!? That’s just weird!

        6. Librarian of SHIELD*

          Will they be confiscating people’s wristwatches too? This is a bonkers policy.

      2. Clocks*

        Ooh, I have one too. One year in college all the clocks got set to different times. It took a couple days to figure it out, then we got the explanation. A facilities guy was tasked with replacing phone batteries & resetting clocks. He didn’t have a watch that day, & his boss didn’t want to loan his own so the guy was directed to set every clock for noon. So he did!

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        And depending on the clock it might even adjust itself for time changes. (My bedside digital did.)

    10. Earthwalker*

      They did that at our place and a coworker hung one of those silly cat clocks where the tail is a pendulum and the eyes look back and forth. It was a great response!

        1. LCL*

          My mom worked for that company, back in the day. Unfortunately she didn’t have any of the clocks.

    11. Accalia*

      Removing all wall clocks….. and a BS explanation…

      Are you sure they’re not removing the wall clocks to trick you into working longer hours? Because that sounds like the sort of thing a company that would try to deny you access to instruments that would tell you the time.

      1. Mobuy*

        Are they banning cell phones, watches, and computers as well? Because this is an odd conspiracy theory otherwise.

    12. A Simple Narwhal*

      So random! I totally get that on its own it might not be a big deal, but I’m guessing this is just one more thing adding up to the overall depressing/disappointing situation.

      Of course now that you pointed it out, I’m now noticing that there are zero wall clocks in my office building.

    13. noahwynn*

      I don’t think we have any clocks in our entire office campus. Everyone uses their computers or cell phones.

      It is a bit weird to take them down, but I can see it being a pain for the facilities people to keep up with if no one is actually using them.

      I work for an airline, and you’d be surprised about how much money small things save. We recently changes our boarding pass paper to be thinner and less cardstock like. It saved the company almost $300,000 a year.

    14. no, the other Laura*

      This is such a tiny, petty thing that I would seriously wonder if my paycheck was going to bounce. This is beyond “you have to live with the plain yellow sticky notes and regular boring pens cause that’s what we got,” this is it costs more to have someone go around taking the things down and setting up the new policy than it cost them to just change a battery once a year when they do the smoke detectors.

      I know for sure how much operations costs add up. I know better than a lot of people. This is seriously, they can’t afford payroll territory.

      1. Natalie*

        That’s an enormous stretch. Facilities budgets usually aren’t diced that finely, and it’s not like getting rid of the clock maintenance tasks would actually mean people going home early or something and thus saving actual cash. The far, far likelier explanation is that some unexpected clock-related expense or PITA task came up (having to move one, or get one repaired or replaced) and someone in facilities proposed just getting rid of the clocks instead.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I’d guess their outsourcedata facilities company charged them to change the clocks and no one thought to tell the department’s to just do it themselves next time!

        2. no, the other Laura*

          That’s sort of what I mean, that the company needs to consider whether or not this is saving money in real life or whether it’s just going to make them look spectacularly bad.

          If you’re managing a facility and you’re going to make a change that will be visible to everyone, you need to think about how you will communicate the change so people aren’t surprised. They might hate it a lot regardless, but if they are surprised by it AND hate it, they’re going to read it like tea leaves if you haven’t given them a reasonable, reassuring explanation.

          Good facility change / communication: “ABC Corp will be removing the Jura coffeemakers and replacing them with Krups coffeemakers in two weeks. The Jura coffeemakers were out of operation 25% of the time and the Krups coffeemakers are more reliable and easily replaced if they break. In addition, Starbucks coffee drinks are available in the cafeteria at a discounted rate. We know how important your coffee is and want to ensure that you have a reliable supply!”

          Bad facility change / communication: “Some of you noticed the Jura espresso makers were removed and replaced with Krups drip coffeemakers last month. This enables the company to save $5/year on the Jura maintenance and replacement parts. Let’s all to our part to make ABC Corp more economical!”

          Nobody gives a crap about putting $5/year in the CEO’s pocket. It’s not even an explanation that makes any sense, really. Messaging is important.

    15. seeveeargh*

      This sounds like a plot line of a campus lit mystery novel. Budget cuts, adjunct exploitation, horological manipulation… sounds like a real thriller.

    16. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So…they’re taking them all down. Get that part. But they’re just tossing them and have a procedure to purchase a new one?!

      Instead of just rounding them all up, setting them in a storage area and then you have to be authorized to have a clock in your workspace, which would make the most sense?

      What a horrible environmental decision but I know that they are certainly going to be saving lots of money in the end by not doing the bi-annual changes and batteries. They just need to do some more research and pull down the unnecessary ones but nah, just ditch them all since it’s the easiest way I’m sure. Yuck.

    17. Tupac Coachella*

      I mean, they’re not wrong-most people don’t use wall clocks enough to make them worth any company time or effort whatsoever, though YMMV on that statement- but why the public announcement? I feel like they’re doing some kind of weird experiment by telling people “we’re taking away clocks, deal with it!” And the prohibition against bringing in your own clocks that you mention upthread is bananacrackers. Are they afraid that you’ll miss a deadline with the 4 seconds per year you spend messing with it? I get the vibe that you might not even care that much about the clocks, it’s just demoralizing for them to be so unpleasant for no reason.

    18. Autumnheart*

      What? They make batteries that last 10 years now. Is someone really too cheap to buy $50 worth of batteries?

  6. Overeducated*

    I’m going to the Grand Canyon for training for 2 weeks!!!

    That is all :D I have been waiting for this day for a long time and I’m so excited.

    1. Lady Jay*

      Ooooo, sounds so fun! Get in some good walking/hiking/running/sightseeing on behalf of all of us while you’re there. :)

      1. Overeducated*

        Thanks! I have some health limitations right now that mean I can’t take advantage of opportunities for overnight backpacking and intense hikes or runs, so I’m hoping to find company for more easy to moderate day trip type activities on the weekend in the middle. But I’m very very excited about the sightseeing.

        1. merp*

          Oh yeah, there are a ton of trails that are less rigorous, I took advantage of them when I was there as well :) I recommend the cemetery as a potentially off the beaten path place to check out – it was really interesting. Have fun!

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I’ve always* wanted to do the donkey or mule tours, and I hope when I get there I’ll still be flexible enough to sit a saddle.
          (*Where “always”=”Ever since I read ‘Brighty of the Grand Canyon’ )

      1. Overeducated*

        Very cool! It’s an organization-wide training that is available within a certain number of years after hire, and there are waitlists, so I feel lucky to be going. It should be really interesting for getting out of my extremely narrow and specialized bubble and meeting people whose jobs are TOTALLY different from mine.

        1. Not All*

          You probably already have, but make sure to talk to people before you go who went previously. (I work for the same agency & know which training you’re referring to.) For example, the food situation is…challenging…depending on your flight times vs the shuttle not to mention any mobility issues you may have and there is some other weirdness that makes the logistics harder than most people expect. If you need to be in touch with people at home, definitely figure out the phone stuff in advance. A couple people from my office had a lot of trouble getting signal there…no big deal for some people but was a real issue for one person who ended up having to borrow other people’s phones. Seemed to depend on carrier/phone type though because others had no problems at all.

          (This class got pretty mixed reviews in my office…it was about 60% loathed it, 30% adored it, and 10% “well, at least I got to see the Grand Canyon”. I hope you fall in the love it category! My particular office makes it mandatory for all permanent employees for inexplicable reasons. I’ve been to the equivalent training for 2 other agencies and managed to get out of it based on some family obligations because after talking to what people did/didn’t like about it, it was pretty clear I would loath every minute and I already have a pretty diverse network. I did love the style FWS does though…I’m still in touch with people from that course a couple decades later!)

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      I loved the Grand Canyon. If you’re staying in the park, take advantage of early morning and late evening to explore while it’s relatively uncrowded.

        1. Canyon sunrise*

          Drink way more water than usual. If you go on “easy, short” excursions take more water than usual. If memory serves you’re in a humid climate so desert will hit you harder.

          If it’s easy to do, I highly recommend watching the sun rise over the canyon. Your hotel will have recommendations for good spots. I complained loudly about getting up that early but was struck dumb by the experience.

          Enjoy the classes & the canyon!

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            *EAT* way more than usual too – you can’t drink enough water to replace the electrolytes you’re sweating out, you need to be absorbing them from solid food in your lower intestine all the time.

            If you do somehow make it to the bottom, Phantom Ranch has THE BEST bacon in the world.

            1. Michaela Westen*

              Actually plain water doesn’t replace electrolytes. In a strenuous or sweaty situation you need to be sure to either eat frequently, or have drinks that replenish your electrolytes like smart water or gatorade. Or both.

    7. J*

      Have fun! I loved fundamentals (also my home unit, so it was nice to be able to “play host”). Lots to see and do. If you’re going early fall that’s a nice time to visit.

    8. Free Meerkats*

      Find yourself a copy of Over the Edge: Death in Grand Canyon by Michael P. Ghiglieri and Thomas M. Myers and take its lessons to heart. There are many ways to die there, not all of them obvious to the uninitiated.

  7. FaintlyMacabre*

    What do you do when some of your coworkers consider elements of being professional as being stifled by the “PC police” and your higher-ups don’t care? I will soon have to spend a week working with one such co-worker and it’s going to be long hours listening to him about how immigrants and criminals should be killed. He’s said things about wishing death on immigrants in front of our boss before, and boss did not bat an eye. I’m considering finding a new job, even though I started here fairly recently and was hoping to stay a few years to get some experience and make up for some other short stays, but honestly this dude is like a turd in the soup tureen and I’m starting to feel like there’s no point sticking around for the rest of the dinner.

    1. Purt's Peas*

      Will HR care?

      Do you have to stay near him? If he starts talking like this, can you move to a different area?

      Can you tell him, “I’m not interested in listening to your violent fantasies, let’s talk about work”? Can you say something to him whenever he starts?

      To be honest, I would leave a job to get away from this kind of person, especially if I had to work closely with them and my boss/HR did nothing. But since it’s been just a little time, what about setting like, a month’s deadline where you’ll leave if it doesn’t improve, and if speaking directly to him doesn’t shut him up.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, I’d definitely take this up with HR. I don’t care what your personal opinion on immigration is – you don’t wish death on people out loud in the workplace. Full stop.

        1. NothingIsLittle*

          Would you be able to say that he’s making you feel unsafe when he expresses such violent desires in front of you? That type of language might inspire a quicker response.

          1. AnonEMoose*

            That kind of language in the workplace would make me feel unsafe, for sure. If that is true for OP as well, I’d definitely recommend saying that to HR.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Wow. Yeah, I think if your boss doesn’t care, there may not be much you can do. You could report him to HR – and I would argue that you should report him to HR, because he’s definitely making people feel unsafe. But if your boss isn’t already on board with how terrible this guy is, I wouldn’t be too optimistic about the outcome – sounds like you should be making an exit plan sooner rather than later.

    3. Troutwaxer*

      “Let’s not talk about politics at work, it’s really unprofessional.” Lather, rinse, repeat.

      1. Rose by another name*

        Agreed–appeals to common decency don’t sound like they’re going to work here, and refocusing on work is probably the only way to stop him.

        Could you also emphasize your own work needs, like by saying “I’ve got to get these TPS reports out by 5, so can we put a hold on the non-work talk?” or “I really need to devote all my mental space to learning $NewProcess.” And back that up with the strategic use of headphones, when “working together” allows?

        I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Many people (myself included) have loved ones in the groups this guy is targeting, or are in those groups but don’t look it. And it really can be distracting to hear those rants, so your requests to focus on work have a basis in truth.

      2. Frankie Bergstein*

        Let’s please draw an important – I feel – distinction: what the coworker is doing isn’t talking about politics, they’re talking about inflicting violence against groups of people for what they are.

        2. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I agree, but if HR won’t do anything and FaintlyMacabre doesn’t feel comfortable or safe being that specific, “I don’t discuss political opinions at work” is a safer option that could work.

    4. LCL*

      To get through the upcoming week, keep interrupting him when he starts on his violent tangents. Keep repeating I don’t want to hear this at work, don’t talk about these things to me, this doesn’t belong in the workplace, etc. I am all for educating people instead of contacting HR first, too much so one of my managers has told me, but that only works for coworkers who are being ignorant. People who advocate violence don’t get tolerance. If you don’t believe your management or HR will be supportive, all you can do is interrupt him or walk away.

      1. Lilith*

        “People who advocate violence don’t get tolerance.”
        What a great, powerful line. I hope I remember it.

      2. Groove Bat*

        I’d dispense with the “in the workplace” qualifier. I’d just say, “I don’t want to listen to this. Please stop.” Leave it at that.

        This isn’t political speech. It’s hate speech.

        Honestly, if he is saying immigrants *should be* killed, he sounds like a danger to the community.

        1. tamarack and fireweed*

          “I do not want to hear this. Frankly, when you keep advocating violence and crime I have a mind to call the police.” (Not that you should call the police. It’s a way of marking the seriousness of your disapproval.)

    5. Buttons*

      That sounds awful! I am sorry you have to deal with that. I have no problem telling people “That is incredibly offensive and racist, please don’t say those things to me.” And he if he goes off with “PC police” BS, tell him “It isn’t about being politically correct, it is about being a decent human” Fuck that guy, he is ing offensive and rude and in most companies he would be fired. You do not have to be nice to him.

    6. Leslie Knope*

      I once worked, for an NGO with a big refugee project, with a self-professed member of the BNP + EDL (British National Party + English Defence League – as close as we have to the KKK in the UK). He would say vile things in the office about immigration/refugees/people of colour – almost as though he had totally disengaged with the core aims of the organisation (and social norms….!).

      I complained to higher-ups, and they absolutely couldn’t care less. It was a sign of how dysfunctional my workplace was that they saw it as ‘political and not something which could be stopped’.

      In sounds similar to what you have described…. but I would say while some (bad) bosses may see political discussions as out of their hand, with people entitled to free speech – wishing death upon anyone is unequivocally wrong. That seems like a hard evidence way of making a complaint, grounded in something very real and clearly wrong.

      But wider advice would be to get out. Management which ignore this kind of thing is going to be making other, big mistakes.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Um… why did he even apply for that job?

        (and was he using his position to act against your clients’ interests?)

        I seriously don’t understand why your bosses did nothing :(

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Lots of racists apply for jobs where they can negatively impact the lives of the people they hate.

        2. Leslie Knope*

          He worked as the database manager, so really was totally separate from the mission & saw his job as separate from his views.

          It was truly bizarre.

    7. Temperance*

      Honestly, I would report him to HR as soon as he starts that shit on me. I can see disagree about the death penalty or whatever (but not a work conversation), but the xenophobia and hatred needs to be stamped out.

    8. Kate R*

      Can you try something like “I don’t like to talk about politics at work” or “I wouldn’t wish violence on anyone!”? It’s super frustrating that the boss hasn’t called this out, but I can also see conflict-averse bosses letting it slide because they think nobody cares about what he’s saying. Calling him out might force them to take some action, or it could be possible you work with jackasses and should be looking for a new job, but either way, hopefully you’ll know.

    9. FaintlyMacabre*

      The big problem with the upcoming work is that we are, let’s say, teapot repairers. When we work in town, we do it alone, but when we do our week long out of town trips, we work in pairs. So… long periods of time in the repair vehicle, repairing a tea pot, then off to the next place. There is no walking away. Last time I had to work with him, I made a couple of comments about us having different political leanings, and maybe politics isn’t a good topic, changing the subject, and so on, but nothing seemed to stick.

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I agree with Purt’s Peas, I would threaten to walk off a job if forced to work with someone like this, but then again, I can afford to do that. If you are willing to try again with HR, I would emphasize that he’s talking about genocide and murder, and you don’t feel safe, because who knows if you’re going to fall into one of his “unacceptable” categories??

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yup. He’s threatening and advocating violence in the workplace. OP’s boss may not care, but the company should – he’s a liability. That’s the kind of crazy who would stroll into work with a gun and kill people. No, his ass needs to be reported to HR and if they fail to act, start looking for a new job. This guy is dangerous.

      2. Buttons*

        A person like that isn’t going to take hints. You have to say it directly “Do not say those things to me.”

        1. Ms. Ann Thropy*

          This. Also, I would report him to HR to get it on the record. A person wishing death in strangers is a small step from wishing death on those coworkers who disagree with him. This is a dangerous person creating a threatening work environment.

          1. Lamplighter*

            Agree. Go to HR and tell that the employee wishes deatht to certain people not like him and that you are therefore afraid for yourself.

        2. PeteyKat*

          Yes, maybe a bit snarky – if you are comfortable looking at him and saying something along the lines of “Did I give you any indication that I have a closet full of German Jack Boots or white sheets and would appreciate and share your opinions? But thank you for showing me who you really are.” Sometimes people say these things to scare you – like a bully. If you think the company (not the Boss) will be responsive to your complaint, I would report him. But I think you should look for another job. Also, please don’t say anything if you truly feel that he could harm you. Your co-worker is a racist idiot and I think your Boss is too for not saying anything.

      3. CatMintCat*

        Don’t frame it as political, because it isn’t. He’s inciting violence, and frame it that way when you call him out. Hard. And do the same when you speak to HR, the boss, the EEO, or whoever you need to take it too. This won’t leave our society unless and until people are held to account for their words.

        It isn’t political.

    10. CatCat*

      “Don’t talk to me about killing people or wishing people would die.” “I won’t tolerate talk of violent deaths. Stop talking.” “I don’t care if you feel stifled. I don’t want to hear from you about violence.”

      Interrupt if he starts. Keep repeating. Literally walk away from him if you need to. If you have to be in transit with him, wear headphones or earplugs. You don’t have to put up with that crap. I’d still escalate it if he persists to your boss and HR, even if they haven’t cared yet. I’d do it in writing. “I have repeatedly told Fergus to stop, but he keeps sharing violent death fantasies with me. I want him to stop it.”

      I am so sorry you are going through this. Perfectly good reason for looking for a new job.

      1. Shirley Keeldar*

        This, exactly. Don’t go with “no politics at work.” This isn’t politics. You are not having a disagreement over property taxes or the school board. Keep bringing it back to the fact that this guy is talking about violence and death and that you should not have to hear it.

        I’m so sorry! The human race, I can’t even…

      2. EnfysNest*

        Yeah, don’t let anyone pretend this is just “political talk”. There is no justification for violent language like that, and you have every right to insist that you need to not hear it.

    11. Scandinavian in Scandinavia*

      Could you start talking to him anout something he would find equally repulsive, to get the point through? Lots of bodily topics (esp female ones) that are not talked about in public. PC-police-him if he protests that.

      Please update us as to how it goes!

    12. Aquawoman*

      This is potential legal liability for the company. This violates harassment/EEO laws and could easily create a hostile work environment. I’d consider either addressing it that way with your boss or with HR, if you have an HR. EEO laws protect people based on national origin and that includes the origin of their ancestors.

    13. Holly*

      I would definitely report this, especially after El Paso. Not that everyone who says that horrible garbage is going to go carry out their sentiments, but it’s something your employer should be monitoring.

    14. Dasein9*

      Add my voice to the chorus of those advising you to set firm boundaries.

      It would be wise to be prepared for him to start trying to needle you or get your goat. He will be testing the boundaries you set. I advise using whatever coping mechanisms you have to remain calm, not only for your own sake, but for strategic reasons: that’s when he’s most likely to cross a line and say something your boss and HR will agree is a problem. Then you can request a different assignment.

      Give him the rope and let him do the rest.

    15. WellRed*

      Secretly report him to the police and stand back and watch the ensuing chaos? After last weekend…

    16. sheworkshardforthemoney*

      Go to HR and tell them in light of recent events I feel unsafe listening to Fergus explaining how certain groups deserve to die.

      1. Lobsterman*

        Also, I’d consider consulting a lawyer about next steps when/if (on, when) HR doesn’t come through for you

    18. IV*

      Well, obviously the sane professional responses, escalating to HR, and so on are your first and best line of defense. However, if that’s unreasonable or doesn’t go anywhere for whatever reason I suggest… knitting. Whenever he starts to rant about crazy/scary stuff start talking, at length and in great detail, about your most boring hobby (in my case knitting). For example:

      Him: “Immigrants, criminals, crazy craziness, yar!”
      You bust in with: “It’s just like the debate about whether to use wool or acrylic for knitting, I mean I get that acrylic has had a bad reputation for a long time, but many of the new acrylics are really nice and they are soft and washable too, on the other hand some people are allergic to wool (and I mean really allergic, my aunt gets hives, seriously major hives, it’s crazy), and who has the time hand wash things, plus sometimes even the expensive wools are itchy and you know you go through all this trouble to knit something for someone and then they don’t wear it because it’s itchy, on the other hand merino is quite nice and not all all itchy, it’s just hard… hmmm, better get back to work.”

      Notice the lack of punctuation here implying that you don’t pause long enough to let him get a word in.

    19. Una*

      I just finished doing some workplace training on active shooter situations today, and one point they brought up in training is that there are usually warning signs when someone is planning an attack, but people either don’t notice or don’t act on them. Talking about wanting to commit violence against people is one of the big warning signs. I hope this doesn’t come across as alarmist, but the fact is, this kind of behavior is really far outside the norm – even if violent fantasies are pretty common among humans, the vast majority of us know it’s inappropriate to share them, *especially* at work. It tells you something scary about his impulse control, his sense of what’s normal, and just how much space these violent fantasies take up in his mind.

      In your shoes, I would definitely be looking to see if this person matches some of the other warning signs, and more importantly, looking out for your own safety, whatever that means for you – but I definitely wouldn’t prioritize keeping this job unless you absolutely have to. If this guy gets specific about his fantasies, I might even skip HR and go straight to calling the police (I know someone who had to do that recently when her roommate started talking about his hatred for certain groups, his desire to commit violence, and ordered some guns). The police considered him a credible threat and he was arrested and charged. This guy sounds frightening – trust *your* instincts, not your boss’s.

  8. Frustrated Today*

    When managing people, at what point is it OK to say, “I’m done, I can’t do anything more to help this person and they need to leave”?

    A situation I’ve had at work since I started earlier this year has finally come to a head.

    I inherited this person as part of taking a department manager position at a new company. He was very close to the previous manager and based on what I was told and what I later witnessed, it was eventually to his detriment. The manager laid more work on this guy than they probably should have, but the guy also didn’t speak up to say it was too much and actively volunteered himself for more. I’m now left with the aftermath of that. We are, or were, headed in a good direction, though there were lots of bumps in the road and frequent ups and downs; I never really knew from day to day what I would get. Not only did I give this person leeway and work with him to manage his workload, I sought out opportunities for him to grow. In addition, the company really went above and beyond for him over the years.

    Things came to a head this week and when confronted with an issue, he told me he’s still unhappy and there’s nothing I can do to help him.

    Had I hired this person, I would have managed him out after probably three months or so (given some issues I haven’t mentioned, things that are just part of his personality and probably not easily changed); however, being that I inherited him, he was basically a golden child to his former manager and my own manager (his grandboss, who now knows the full extent of the situation and agrees with me that we stop our efforts to overlook his quirks), and his been with the company a long time (about 7 years), I gave it extra time so as not to appear as though I’m not willing to make the effort. And I also thought that it was the shock of a new manager that has a different style, which can be really hard for some people.

    Anyway, even though I know logically that I’ve done everything I can do at this point and it’s on him to make changes or leave, and my manager agrees, I can’t help but feel like I could’ve done something more. “If only I’d done X or Y, then maybe I could have made a difference.” I guess I feel like I failed at my first truly challenging situation as a manager. Even though I’ve been a manager for 20+ years, I’ve been extraordinarily lucky to end up with people that aren’t problems—they did what they had to do, did it well, and had a good attitude.

    1. A tester, not a developer*

      It sounds like you’ve done everything right; if he feels that there’s nothing you can do to help him improve then he’s made the decision to leave by default. If it makes you feel any better I suspect that both you and the rest of the team will be happier/function better once your ‘golden anchor’ is gone.

      1. Frustrated Today*

        Yes, I do believe people will be relieved. I have no idea when the change can be made, but I’m relieved that I no longer need to keep on trying. I mean, obviously I won’t be a crappy manager to him. I just mean I don’t need to make an effort any longer to change his mind/feelings.

        1. Jaydee*

          I find that people spend a lot longer trying to change other people’s minds and feelings than is warranted. You can’t control what other people think or how they feel. Sure, words you say or ways you act might have an impact on how they think or feel. But ultimately, they are in control of how they think and feel about things. Being unable to control others is not a failure.

          And, keep in mind from the opposite side, this employee also probably feels like *he* should have been able to change how *you* think and feel about the same issues. You don’t want to change your mind on these issues any more than he does. So, once you accept that neither of you are going to change, what options are there? You guys can continue to butt heads about the same things for eternity. Or you can accept that he’s not going to change but the benefit to keeping him as an employee outweighs the downside. Or you can accept that the downside outweighs the benefit and take the appropriate steps to end his employment there.

        2. MissDisplaced*

          He told you he’s still unhappy, but he’s still there?
          Sometimes you’ll just have to lay it out: what you want, what you expect, what he needs to do, and that’s the way it’s going to be.

          If he cannot manage under those terms, you can suggest he might indeed be happier elsewhere and you respect his decision if that is the case. If he’s been decent and this is not an outright firing, you can facilitate an exit strategy, and give him some time to find a job and transition out of the company.

    2. designbot*

      The measurement of success here shouldn’t be turning coal into diamonds. It should be handling the coal in an appropriate manner that doesn’t tarnish the rest of the gems on your team.

      1. Frustrated Today*

        Thank you. Logically I know this, but I still wish I could have made a bigger difference.

    3. voyager1*

      How did you him grow? How did you go above and beyond? Did he feel like he was given opportunities?

      Sounds like to me this guy is just burned out. There could also be some difference in expectations of what is success in his role.

      1. Frustrated Today*

        I think some of it is burnout, but a good deal is personality and other issues; I didn’t spell them out since one never know who’s reading this. The company really has bent over backwards to give him many opportunities that others haven’t received, but doesn’t recognize that at all.

    4. Quinalla*

      Sometimes you do all you can (or maybe more than you should even) and the other person is a bad fit for the role, won’t hold up their end, etc. It sucks and I still feel guilty about it too when it happens, but you can’t control others, you can only do what you can to set them up for success. Hopefully it will be a relief for your team (it always has been on mine when problem people were let go or left) and hopefully he will find someplace where he can succeed and feel motivated.

  9. Paralegal*

    Hello! Paralegal here hoping to talk shop with other legal folks. My boss asked me to look into new legal document and case management software for our small law firm, but rejects the obvious choices like Relativity because they’re too expensive. What softwares or other systems do you use that you like, that might be more accessible to a firm with limited resources to spend on IT? We do environmental litigation, so we have lots of documents to keep track of!

    2. Madam Secretary*

      We use a document management system called FileSite aka iManage and I love it. Not sure what the costs are or the tech requirements. It’s basically a massive database, but very easy to use. Our files are set up within Outlook.

      2. Paralegal*

        I’ve heard good things about iManage! We use gmail, though, and I don’t think it integrates with that :(

        1. Philosophia*

          It does now, but with many flaws—some in I Manage itself, some in the Gmail integration.

    3. Former Govt Contractor*

      If you’re talking about e-discovery and production, check out Thomson Reuters eDiscovery Point. I just met with a rep. A subscription is $550/month for 10 GB, pre-review costs nothing – you are only charged for what you send for review and production. Or if you need it less frequently, their one off charge is $130 GB. They also store your documents. User friendly too, I hate Relativity.

    4. Bigglesworth*

      I work at a small estate planning firm (two attorneys and me). They use Cosmolex but also use dropbox, since we digitize all our documents and give the originals back to clients or shred them.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Not sure if this is the type of program you’re looking for (others responded while I was typing and I didn’t see them). Hopefully you get some good ideas!

      2. Paralegal*

        Thanks! I’ll look into Cosmolex. I wish we would digitize and shred all our old documents, it would make my life much easier, haha! I use Dropbox for my personal files and love it.

        1. Bigglesworth*

          We had to move offices recently and being a digital office made packing up a breeze! Plus, it’s saved our hide a few times because we digitize all outgoing mail and we someone emails us and writes that they never received XYZ, we can point to our chron file and let them know when we mailed the documents to them and what the documents were. Happened twice today actually.

    5. Hamlindigoblue*

      We used TrialWorks, which was just ok. It did what it needed to do, but it’s clunky and dated. I’ve heard good things about Smokeball, which is cloud based and they cater to small firms.

      1. Paralegal*

        Oh, I haven’t heard of smokeball – thanks for the tip! I will definitely look into it.

  10. Under Suspicicion*

    Kombucha quandry: I’ve been reported to HR for “drinking at work.” The report comes from my new habit of drinking a GT’s Trilogy Kombucha every afternoon (for the record the clear bottle, not the dark bottle). While it has a small amount of alcohol, it’s low enough that it’s not regulated (less than mouthwash). That means that a 5-year old could purchase one, and the cashier wouldn’t bat an eye. In my opinion, this means that it’s fine to drink at work. I mean, I’ve got a coworker who drink 64-oz Mountain Dew from the gas station every day. That’s got to be more mood altering than a kombucha. For the record, HR is going to let it slide but told me to stop drinking them at work.

    I’m just wondering if anyone else has run into something similar.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Personally, I don’t like kombucha, but I know a lot of folks do. I’ve never heard of it being a problem at work and it seems kine of silly. But my question to you is, is this the hill you want to die on?

      (Also some mouthwash has a lot of alcohol in it, actually, it’s just that it’s unpleasant to drink)

      2. Under Suspicicion*

        No, not the hill that I want to die on. I’m discontinuing per HR’s request; I’m just rather annoyed.

      3. Matilda Jefferies*

        Not the hill I would die on personally, and I’m surprised (or I guess not really surprised) that HR would care either. I don’t love the framing of “we’re going to let it slide as long as Under Suspicion changes their behaviour” – as opposed to “Under Suspicion isn’t doing anything wrong, and we told Nosy ComplainyPants to mind their own business.”

        But yeah, at the end of the day it’s probably not worth arguing about, if HR feels that strongly about kombucha.

    3. Arielle*

      WTF. My work cafeteria sells kombucha and I see people drinking it at their desks all the time.

      1. Autumnheart*

        My work cafeteria makes cream of mushroom soup with sherry in it. Nobody’s calling HR about that.

      2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Our GM’s corner office is so warm and sunny that another coworker is fermenting jugs of kombucha in it.

        Many sympathies, Under Suspicion; the busybody who “reported” you needs to chill out, and your HR should have laughed it off.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      My in-laws got into (and lost) an argument as to whether they could purchase ginger beer on a Sunday. And that has no alcohol. You never know what will cause an eye bat.

      Like ThatGirl, I would put this into “not rational, not the hill I want to die on” and move on.

      1. Grapey*

        I used to work at a grocery store when I was 16/17 and had to call over a cashier over 18 to ring out O’Douls. (“non alcoholic” beer.) Ridiculous.

        1. Mama Bear*

          My college roommates and I got written up when Res Life found a bottle of non-alcoholic wine and a bottle of Goya’s Malta in our fridge. Some people can’t read. (We did successfully fight it, though they also wrote us up for cooking sherry which stuck.)

      2. Natalie*

        I’ve seen a couple of brands of fancy ginger beer at the co-op that are 0.5% alcohol. But they’re obviously not considered alcohol, because if they were you’d only be able to get them at the liquor store in my state.

      3. Filosofickle*

        I got carded once for ginger beer at Safeway. I wondered if that was staff discretion (checker saw “beer” and didn’t know the difference) or a system prompt (the register popped up an “ID required” flag). I live in coastal California, not exactly a hotbed of blue laws.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’ve never done the math on this but I imagine they may see this as similar to someone who splashes some whiskey in their coffee — i.e. whatever the actual alcohol content, it doesn’t look good to do it openly at work. If this is something that you can’t live without, can you drink your Kombucha on a break outside of the building?

      1. Yarrow*

        I don’t think those are the same thing. Kombucha is not alcoholic. (it has so little alcohol that it’s legally non-alcoholic.) I don’t get how this involves more than emailing HR and saying “Hey, someone probably just saw me drinking kombucha. It’s not alcohol.”

        1. Venus*

          If you search for the drink which Under Suspicicion specifically mentions, the drink states it is 3% ABV, which is *not* ‘not alcoholic’ (which is limited to < 0.5%)

          1. Rainy*

            Ugh, really? So A) that’s not normal for kombucha afaia, and B) yeah at that point don’t drink it at work.

            1. Ingray*

              From what I can see that’s the dark bottle one, the one the OP specified they are NOT drinking.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            *googles* Okay, I’m reversing my earlier position. If you wouldn’t drink 3% alcohol beer at your desk, 3% alcohol kombucha is also out.

          3. Arielle*

            There are two versions of that drink which is why the OP mentioned the clear vs. black bottles. The black bottles are 3% ABV and legally a beer. The clear bottles are not and can be sold in any grocery store.

            1. Venus*

              Fair enough, although the fact that the brand does have an alcoholic version may be why there was a concern expressed by someone. If the colour of the bottle is a factor then the complainer may not appreciate the difference.

              Personally I wouldn’t care (I have worked places where wine was sold at the cafeteria), but I can appreciate how there could be confusion on whether the drink had alcohol.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          Yeah, a mix up between beer in a bottle and kombucha in a bottle seems most likely. Or someone who believes kombucha is like whiskey. (I recall someone had to defend their KUMQUAT license plate on the grounds that it is a fruit, not a sexual euphemism.)

          So give HR a chance to say “kombucha is not whiskey” but if that’s the line they are drawing, you can shrug and transfer your kombucha into an opaque tumbler.

      2. Rainy*

        So kombucha is not a brand, it’s a type of fermented tea stuff (I am not a fan, sorry, I can’t describe it fairly), but if you’re going to ban drinking kombucha at work because of trace alcohol, you need to also stop eating bread at work.

        1. Arielle*

          Yes. Or orange juice. I am in a number of pregnancy groups where occasionally someone will freak out about the negligible amount of alcohol in non-alcoholic beer, and inevitably someone points out that orange juice has more naturally occurring alcohol than the <0.5% that NA beer has.

          1. writerson*

            Yes, orange juice! I came here to say exactly that. Also, I’ve brewed my own kombucha for years, and continue to drink it now, even while pregnant.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          When I was still into soda, I used to drink root beer at work, in a tall brown bottle. I’m surprised nobody tried to ban it because it looks like a Budweiser and contains the word ‘beer’!!

          1. Rainy*

            One of my classmates in ugrad (we were both nontrad students), who was married and pregnant with her third got pulled over driving home from class drinking a rootbeer (she spent that entire pregnancy drinking rootbeer like gangbusters because it was the only thing that settled her stomach) because the cop thought it was a beer. She was like *gestures at enormous belly* “DUDE!”

    6. CatCat*

      I have not run into this and it strikes me as patently silly. I’d be side-eyeing HR on this one and wondering about their judgment in general. Just a weird thing to me for them to take up your time with and to ban.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Trilogy does not contain 3% ABV. GT’s does have 3 special kombuchas that are a dual fermentation method specifically designed to be an alcoholic beverage but those are their New World Noir, Heavenly Hops, and Pina Paradise. All of the other kombuchas only contain trace amounts of naturally occurring alcohol that do not need to be labeled.
        And yes, I have an actual bottle of the GT’s Trilogy in front of me at work right now.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Trace amounts of alcohol in flavorings are not uncommon, but that’s not nearly the same as 3% abv. To be clear, 3% is low, but it’s not nothing. And comparisons to mouthwash or vanilla extract are a bit disingenuous, you don’t drink those by the glassful.

      3. LCL*

        The website for the product she is drinking says it contains a trace amount of alcohol. Kombucha is a fermented product that also has bacteria in the process. The yeast ferments the sugar and turns it into alcohol, and the bacteria eat the resulting alcohol. Commercially produced kombucha should have negligible amounts of alcohol. But if it isn’t pasteurized, and not held at a correct temp, it’s possible there could be some secondary fermentation after it is bottled.

    8. cactus lady*

      Oh I would be so annoyed by this! I drink kombucha at work relatively frequently, and before we started brewing it at home I would occasionally wonder if anyone would have a problem with it. (Now I bring it in reusable to-go cups or water bottles.) I’m sorry, that sucks!

    9. LCL*

      It’s not worth fighting HR on this. It sounds like they don’t know too much about it, and once they were told it has a trace amount of alcohol they lost their minds.

      The question, as always when HR or management asserts their authority to stop something innocuous, is what is really going on here? Who decided to inform HR? Why did they decide to inform HR? Why wasn’t the informer told MYOB?
      https://gtslivingfoods.com/offering/enlightened-synergy/trilogy-enlightened/

    10. CupcakeCounter*

      Seriously?????
      I drink them daily as well (also at work – same brand plus several others depending on my mood and sale/rebates) and my BOSS actually asked if he could try some. Hell another coworker brings in her husband’s homemade kombucha.
      This is utterly ridiculous and the fact that the FDA or whatever department is over alcoholic beverages DOESN’T consider it a regulated substance means your coworker and HR are out of their ever living minds.

    11. CoffeeforLife*

      This is bananas. And I would probably push back since it’s not an alcoholic drink, it is sold to children, on Sunday, and you wouldn’t even register a blip on a breathalyzer. It is NOT the same as a splash of whiskey in your coffee. Pretty sure you have to be 21 for that.

      Have you tried water kefir? It’s less tangy but still a probiotic drink. I’m pretty sure there isn’t an alcohol warning on the label (even though it can produce alcohol as a by product). I brew my own and sometimes make it boozy.

    12. LawLady*

      I went to college with a guy who had been VERY sheltered. There was kombucha at some event and he had some, and then someone later mentioned that the fermentation process meant there was a little alcohol in it. “Alcohol??!? This has alcohol??” He freaked out and then proceeded to act very drunk (stumbling around) and telling us he was drunk.

      I wondered where that guy ended up, but it turns out it’s your coworker.

    13. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ve seen some Paleo/Whole30 sites that recommend Kombucha as a substitute for wine, so it’s possible that folks are misinformed about what it actually is.

    14. Mbarr*

      Uh, our workplace actively brought IN Kombucha for employees (it started in the California offices, then spread to our Canadian ones). The CEO himself was waxing poetic about it.

    15. c56*

      Incredibly dumb, so dumb that I might actually consider dying on that hill (if I drank kombucha).

    16. Moocowcat*

      Alrighty……..*confused look* I’m not sure why HR even recommended that kombucha not be consumed at work.
      As you said, kombucha is just a slightly fermented beverage that has less alcohol than mouthwash.
      Drinking kombucha would absolutely not be a problem at my workplace. In fact, there are a few bottles of kombucha in the staff fridge.

    17. bdg*

      The Nuclear Regulatory Commission has decided kombucha is not within the scope of fitness for duty regulations and can be brought in a protected area. It was previously a reportable violation of FFD regulations, and it looks like people are still reporting it, but apparently it’s allowed now.

      Don’t know if that helps or hurts you, but it’s definitely been the source of much debate in the nuclear community.

    18. Kt*

      Annoyed on your behalf. Get them to ban chocolate chip cookies made with vanilla extract, too. And cookie dough ice cream since it’s not cooked. For sure sourdough bread.

    19. Zona the Great*

      I think this is loony-toons but I should mention that regular kombucha makes me feel a little drunk (yes the kind your child can drink). Maybe the complainer is like me and perhaps doesn’t realize kombucha doesn’t impact most other people like it does them.

    20. Ciela*

      I knew a girl who was told, in high school, to put away the O’Doul’s she had brought in on St. Patrick’s day. No detention or demerits, just a “put that in your locker until dismissal”.

      At work though? What about Nyquil, or other cough syrups? But then I where I work we have “work beer”. As in beer that the company has purchased to assist the production team in dealing with customers’ BS. I will note that it is very rare for anyone to have more than one work beer a day.

  11. Goldfinch*

    I would appreciate some advice on career development. Colleagues in my age range who work in other fields are getting interviewed in trade journals, receiving industry awards, being highlighted at alumni events, etc. I’ve only just dipped my toe into the world of networking, and separating the useful from the useless is daunting. I don’t want to embody the joke about the D-list actor going to the opening of an envelope.

    I’ve always been the only person at a company who does my job (technical writing) so I don’t have a department of peers to discuss with. I belong to the appropriate professional association (STC) and have attended some seminars, but am not sure what else to do.

    How do you seek out this type of development, and how do you develop a sense for which opportunities are a good use of your time?

    1. BeenThere*

      When I was a technical writer, I also belonged to STC, both the national association and the local chapter. I went to all the local chapter meetings. I also served as a judge in the STC competition. If you’re trying any new strategies in your work, you might consider putting together a paper that you could present at the national conference, or perhaps participate on a panel.

      It’s been a while since I’ve been a member of the STC, but I think I remember a sub-group for lone technical writers. That might be a good fit for you. There’s also the LavaCon Content strategy group.

      Good luck!

    2. 867-5309*

      Attending events, joining conversations on LinkedIn, asking people to meet for coffee or over lunch, etc. These are good ways to network. Those who are getting interviews and awards are actively putting themselves out there by apply. Does that interest you?

      Most alumni and professional organization publications list career moves, so you could submit yourself to those, when applicable. You can also submit for industry awards on behalf of your organization, though those come with a fee.

      I don’t dig the award band wagon and I think increasingly (at least, in my field of marketing) they’re being seen as less relevant the more people humble brag about them. I swore a few years ago that the only awards I’d consider would be those on behalf of my organization that further meaningful business objectives, versus those for my direct work in marketing. You learn over time what events are worthwhile and what aren’t, but start with the most well-organized and largest membership association for your field.

      1. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

        Re: Those who are getting interviews and awards are actively putting themselves out there by apply

        I confirm that for many awards you have to apply to be considered: there is usually no such thing as a “search committee” for prize candidates. If you look at the webpages of the awards you should find where and how to apply.
        Some prizes require a senior member to recommend you (as opposed to you directly applying), so if you have a mentor you should talk to them; they should also tell you which prizes are worth competing for, because it’s true that they are so many now that their value is diluted.

        Also, for the general networking part: if conferences are common in your field, try to go as much as you can. People go to conferences for exactly this reason, and networking is expected and encouraged between the sessions. It is also much easier to start talking with new people when you can comment and ask questions on what they just presented.

    3. Willow*

      Don’t just joing goups or attend meetings or seminars, volunteer to help with them. It’ll make the networking easier, because you’ll be forced to do things you wouldn’t have done otherwise.

  12. Still Standing (yeah yeah yeah)*

    Has anyone ever been flown out for an interview? This is the first time in my career that I am being seriously wooed ny a company and it is overwhelming. How have you all dealt with those intense emotions?

    1. hermit crab*

      Me! I was interviewing for a position in my current city, but the rest of the team was located in a different city so that’s where the interview took place. They paid for my flight and hotel up front, and probably would have reimbursed me for a meal or two (but I didn’t ask).

      Just don’t do what I did: because of a combination of me not being prepared for the nightmare that is Chicago-O’Hare and a gate-change communication error, I actually MISSED MY RETURN FLIGHT despite being in the airport well ahead of time. Luckily the airline didn’t charge me anything to rebook my flight, but I was so nervous that evidence of my shame would get back to my interviewers. (I got the job and have worked here for a year.)

      1. Still Standing (yeah yeah yeah)*

        Oh goodness–this is always a thought in the back of my mind. Thank you for the advice!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve been flown out a couple of times. While it might make you feel as if you’re getting some kind of special treatment, just remind yourself this is a cost they’ve built into the hiring process. Yes, they like you enough to invest in you as a candidate (so you should feel special in that way), but don’t at all feel guilty. It’s not a vacation, but also feel free to enjoy the time you’re in that new place when you aren’t in the middle of an interview.

      1. Antilles*

        Yes, they like you enough to invest in you as a candidate (so you should feel special in that way), but don’t at all feel guilty.
        +1
        Similarly, don’t feel like you have any obligation here either. If the job isn’t the right fit, it’s not the right fit; don’t let yourself be swayed by the cost/expense they’ve put into the wooing process.

      2. Still Standing (yeah yeah yeah)*

        Thank you so much for this. I think this comment addressed all of my big issues. I appreciate it!

      3. OtterB*

        Also, if you would be relocating for the job and haven’t visited the area before, it is completely legit to spend a little time looking around. You can’t do an extra hotel night without checking in with the employer, but if your interview starts with dinner one evening, it is not at all sketchy to come in early that morning and look around, or if it finishes with dinner one evening and you don’t fly out until the next day, it’s okay to fly out late.

    3. BeenThere*

      Yes, I was flown out for my current role. It was a very short trip — I arrived the evening before and was taken out to dinner by a small group by my new company. Then I had all-day interviews, both one-on-one and group interviews, and I flew home that evening.

      The good part of this for me was that I didn’t really need this job. I had a job that I liked in Previous City, so could be very picky. That really helped me stay calm. But it did involve a lot of conversation with Spouse, and when I accepted the position, sadness at leaving friends. That’s been the most lasting emotion — I am slowly making new friends, and I still miss the old ones three years later. But the job in New City turned out great.

      Another thing was that I had already developed a list of places that I would absolutely not move to, and a list that I’d be interested in. And also, I had a good idea of the directions I wanted to move in my career. So when New Job came up, and it was in a place I was interested in living, and the role moved me in directions I wanted to go, it was pretty easy to consider it seriously.

      1. Still Standing (yeah yeah yeah)*

        This is a great idea as well. Until very recently, I never thought of relocation as a possibility, but it’s been a factor in the past two interviews. I need to decide which cities I could live in and which ones are a no-go.

        Thank you!

    4. 867-5309*

      I’ve been flown out for an interview probably 10 times in my career. There are two big things that can help with the nerves: 1.) Prepare for the interview a couple days before. Don’t rely on the flight or night before hotel stay to prep. 2.) If it’s in/out same day, I do some small things like not wearing my jacket/blazer/sweater until landing, putting on make-up at the destination airport, bringing desperate and a toothbrush & paste, spraying toner on my face after landing, etc.

      Good luck!

      1. hermit crab*

        Don’t rely on the flight or night before hotel stay to prep.

        Oh, yeah, this is such good advice and something I always plan to do (not just for interviews, but for other meetings, conference presentations, etc.) and somehow NEVER actually manage.

  13. Eillah*

    Is there any way for me to have two excel files open at the same time on two different monitors? I can’t make it work!!!

    1. Coffee Bean*

      If you have Excel 2010 or older you need to open two instances of excel. Right-click the icon and just press “Microsoft Excel [year]”.

    2. Art3mis*

      What version of MS Office are you using? You shouldn’t have a problem doing it. I just tested it on mine and it’s working fine.

      1. Becky*

        This was a well known quirk of older versions of Excel. Sometimes getting two instances of Excel open at once to put on different monitors was a pain. By default it would open both files in the same instance.

        1. Natalie*

          It’s just one version IIRC, because I remember being aggravated when we were updated and suddenly I had to do the dumb work around to have two workbooks open at once. Thankfully someone came to their senses and fixed it in later versions.

    3. KR*

      I hate this! I usually end up dragging the Excel window open across both screens and then opening the two Excel files side by side within the one bigger Excel program if that makes sense. But it is a major pain.

    4. fposte*

      Are you Windows or Mac? On Mac, you just need to make sure the external monitor isn’t set to mirroring and set the arrangement so that the screens are adjacent; then just drag one spreadsheet over to the other monitor.

    5. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

      On mine, I have hold down the shift key while clicking on the Excel icon (mine is in my bottom taskbar, so I only have to click once).

    6. stelms_elms*

      Open the first Excel document, then go to the Excel icon and open your second document. That should work. (If you try to open the second one when you are in the first document, you’ll have to toggle back and forth which I think is what’s happening for you.)

    7. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      My method is to have excel open on one screen and then go to start> excel and it opens up in a new window – note some things won’t copy/paste over between the two windows!

      This is on windows 10 with Excel 2010

      1. Existentialista*

        Yes, this method works for me too. It look me literally YEARS to figure this out, so I feel your pain!

      2. Nope, not today*

        this is what we have to do in my office as well – opening a second file from Excel’s menu will only allow it to be open in that window. You have to open a second instance of Excel instead, and drag it over.

    9. ChachkisGalore*

      It’s been awhile since I’ve had this issue (no shade – I’m just genuinely rusty, so apologies if I’m misremembering). I think it works if you open your first excel doc. You can open it however you want. The second one is where you have to do it specific way – you can’t just open a saved excel file. You have to open a brand new excel workbook (not from within the first one – completely fresh – like from start->excel). This should open a second, separate instance. If you’re trying to access a previously saved workbook then you can go through the Open option within the fresh workbook (I think it’s File->Open).

    10. Akcipitrokulo*

      Right-click on icon at bottom of screen and select excel (version) not one of spreadsheets.

    11. MoopySwarpet*

      I think you can shift click on the excel icon on the taskbar and then open your file from within the new window. (The computer I can test on is currently occupied so I can’t say with 100% certainty, but I’m pretty sure I’ve done that before.)

    12. Clear All before Calculating*

      I have it in my task bar (Windows). While holding ALT on the keyboard, right click on the icon in the task bar and choose Excel (or something similar). Keep holding down ALT and you’ll get a prompt that asks if you want to open a new instance of excel

  14. hermit crab*

    Who else listens to the podcast The Broad Experience? I just heard about it and listened to a couple of episodes this week. It’s about women and gender in the workplace.

    One episode talked about how long people stay in jobs (especially if there are reasons they might want to leave), which is not something I ever thought about as gendered, but it totally makes sense. It turns out that women are more likely to be risk-averse in making career jumps (“This situation is not the best, but the next one could be worse, and what if I want to get pregnant?”) and to be subject to that sort of overly-personal one-sided job loyalty (“I can’t leave, I would let everyone down!”).

    I was particularly struck by this quote (from guest Danielle Maveal in episode 136, talking about when she left her job at Etsy):

    Even now it gets me emotional, it breaks my heart — and I don’t know if a man would ever be like, “I can’t leave this job, it would break my heart.” I mean maybe, but…

    I have BEEN that person! I stayed at my last job maybe two years longer than I should have, and deciding to leave felt more like a breakup than some actual breakups I’ve gone through.

    Anyway, I thought that was super interesting. I’ll put a link to the episode in the comments.

    2. Sarah*

      That is me right now! I’ve finally decided to actively apply, but now I’m also dealing with imposter syndrome and feeling grossly underqualified for everything I want. I’ll have to check this out.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      This is interesting because I’m always seeking new opportunities and have no feelings of guilt or sadness when I move on. The only things that might give me pause about leaving a specific company or position is salary and benefits, especially medical. I simply cannot take a pay cut ever (every job I’ve held so far has been an upward trajectory), and due to various medical issues, I need to find the best high deductible plan possible with the largest coverage amount and lowest deductible (since most places no longer offer high premium/low deductible plans or HMOs).

      1. hermit crab*

        I aspire to have that sort of rational, objective outlook! I’m a pretty risk-averse, relationship-focused person in general, but I was still really surprised at how hard it was to make the decision to leave my last job. I left for really good reasons but it was TOUGH.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          See, and I’m task oriented – relationships really don’t rate that high to me, so that’s probably why it’s easy for me to be objective.

    4. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Thanks for the recommendation! I haven’t heard of this podcast, but will subscribe to it. I have definitely stayed in a job where it was clear I wasn’t wanted, and I didn’t feel like I was providing value. However, I was trying to have a baby within a year of starting that job, and had a few miscarriages first. So it was definitely a matter of already having a job, so didn’t want to change that while I was focusing on other things. But when it was so obvious I wasn’t providing value, something clicked, and I finally started looking for a different job at the same company.

    5. Federal Middle Manager*

      Yes! Quitting jobs is definitely a gendered thing, in my experience. In my friend groups (mainly educated professionals and some service industry) men are much more likely to quit a job because of some perceived intolerable situation, whereas women are more likely to stick it out until they have something lined up.

      My first major fight with my now-husband was that he quit a job after three days because it wasn’t a good fit without consulting me. For him, it was a clearly bad situation and his call. From my perspective, how could you know after three days and how do make a financial decision without talking to your partner?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This sounds like my sister-in-law. She used to quit jobs all the time for stupid reasons like she didn’t like her manager’s “tone” when the woman was speaking to her. My brother cursed her out a few times for this because they cannot afford to live off just his salary alone when they have a nearly five year old child, but she seems to be doing slightly better about this now that she understands she needs to talk to him before she makes life altering changes that shifts the entire burden of their household expenses to him.

    6. bookends*

      Wow, I’ve never thought about the gendered aspect of this before! I’m a woman and this is definitely me.

      My work situation has gotten a lot better, but I was in a years-long cycle of constant excuses to not look for other work: I’ll quit once my boss is back from medical leave, now she’s back but I should stay until the open positions are all filled, there’s always a position open, etc.

      Really looking forward to listening to this later.

    7. Quinalla*

      Thanks for bringing this up, subscribed!. Just got done binge-listening to HBR’s Women at Work podcast backlog, highly recommend it!

      I agree that this tends to be more of an issue with women than men, having more guilt at leaving a job, etc.

    8. TechWorker*

      Thanks for the recommendation. I feel the imposter syndrome thing hard (not helped by failing the initial test due to effectively a typo at the first place I got as far as actually applying to). My commute is what keeps me on my job tho tbh, to move to any other company would add on ~40min each way. Will check out the podcast!

    9. Bigglesworth*

      This is very interesting! I’m a relationally oriented person and won’t quit til I have something lined up, but you better believe that I’m going to start look ASAP if I get a bad vibe or hate where I work. There can be good coworkers in a toxic workplace, but they don’t negate the toxicity.

  15. FoodieNinja*

    Any tips for staying fresh and alert for a full day of interviews? I’m interviewing next week for a job I’d really like, and my agenda runs from 9:00 – 4:00, meeting with more than a dozen different people (in groups and individually). This is my first time with such an extensive interview agenda. How do I make sure I’m as “on” after lunch as before?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Whatever amount of coffee you usually drink – not too much, because it will make you jittery! And stay away from pasta or anything super heavy at lunch. Fresh air and breaks if you can get them – even a quick walk around the block if that’s an option.

      But honestly, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. You’re going to be jacked up on adrenaline all day regardless, so I would count on that to carry you through – and plan for some good down time when you get home! Good luck!

    2. wingmaster*

      I just did my first ever full day of interviews last week! Some of my tips:

      1. Get a good night’s sleep.
      2. Eat breakfast, even if you don’t typically eat breakfast (I do intermittent fasting)
      3. Pack a small snack – whatever pick-me-ups you need
      4. Dress professionally, yet comfortably
      5. You’ll have a small break between each interview – use it to get up, stretch, go to the bathroom, refill your water
      6. Do socialize

      1. Catherine de Medici*

        To your first point, I would say get a couple of good night’s sleep in a row. I believe studies have shown that it usually takes at least two days to start to really have an effect. (Especially if you have a tendency already to not get enough sleep like me.)

        1. Mellow*

          To these two fine points, may I also add a brisk 30-minute walk around the hotel or wherever safe on the morning of the interview, to whichever music puts you in the mood to interview (for me, it was “Flashlight” (Parliament), “Disco Nights/Rock-Freak” (GQ), and other similar music).

          The walking and music made me feel calibrated.

    3. blackcat*

      I’m an academic. We do 2 day interviews, that are often 8am-8pm (breakfast through dinner).

      Drink lots of water, and pack a super quick snack you can shove in your mouth during bathroom breaks. *Ask* for bathroom breaks if you need them (and you will if you drink lots of water). Having just 2-3 breaks through the day that are just a few minutes but you get to be alone (even if peeing) can be hugely helpful. It’s best to go between meetings, and it’s easy to say something like “I’ll need a pit stop on my way to my next meeting. Where’s the bathroom?” Don’t eat a huge lunch, just enough to tide you over. Aim for carbs and less fat to reduce food-coma.

    4. 867-5309*

      Bring a toothbrush & toothpaste to brush your teeth after lunch and a small bottle of toner to squirt on your face.

      1. Krickets*

        I recommend a setting / misting spray instead and one with hyaluronic acid to keep moisture on your skin. :)

    5. Quinalla*

      Full night sleep the night before, and the night before that if you can swing it. Eat breakfast. Make sure you are drinking plenty of fluids. Take your breaks, don’t just sit in the conference room or wherever they stick you all day, get up and walk around, use the restroom, etc.

      Toothbrush & toothpaste, small snacks, etc. are all good ideas too!

      I’ve not done a full day interview, but I’ve done full day conferences which are somewhat similar. I’m introverted, so I usually either find a quiet place during breaks to recharge or hide in the bathroom a few extra minutes.

    6. TechWorker*

      I think even being aware it might be a problem is a good start! Try not to mentally rank the different sections in importance as it’s probably quite difficult to do that as a candidate/easy to get it wrong! Good Luck :)

      (When I was applying to grad roles I had a very intense full day interview process – where I succeeded on everything technical but did badly on the ~4pm interview because my brain was sludge from the pressure of the rest of it!

  16. Augusta has gone East*

    What do you think of unpaid internships NOT at the start of your career but 4-6 years into it.

    A few weeks ago I applied to a position at a start-up. The position had a short description that fit me perfectly and I also have experience with their customers.

    At the end of the first interview, they told me that the position is first an unpaid internship for a few months (part-time) and then, if both parties are happy, they offer a contract for a paid FT position. During the internship, they cover the cost of your commute and there’s an allowance for food (which covers lunches for about 1 week a month).

    Initially, I have accepted the situation and went on with interviews/reference checks while applying to other positions elsewhere. Then the offer came through and I have until next week to accept/decline. (This week they have their summer closure so I really have had time to think this through.) And I am still quite unsure.

    So there’s not a ton of opportunities here and I really like the position, the product and the company’s mission. I’ve just moved here and I’m also learning the language so this would let me focus on that and I’d have something on my CV.

    On the other hand, this would put me and my SO in a hard situation where he remains the sole breadwinner for longer than expected. I might be able to get a part-time gig in a local café but I might not.

    Also, I have 5 years of solid work experience and many years of volunteer work/student jobs. My last position came with a lot of responsibilites and I feel like I am too experienced/too old to work for free. (And unpaid internships are not cool even for unexperienced and young people.) Moreover, if I have an unpaid position, I need to take care of health insurance and my visa might run out before I get an actual job if this doesn’t work out (I’d still have months to find something and I can reapply very easily so it’s not super problematic but it is a concern, mostly because of the logistics.)

    What else do I need to take into account? When does it make sense to accept an unpaid position? Is it a red flag that they didn’t mention the internship part on their website? (I’m really quite annoyed about this but as it’s a start up, I know that different norms apply.)

    1. Sunflower*

      I would be extremely hesitant about this being a bait and switch. The fact that they didn’t tell you in the job posting what the job truly was, makes me feel like there may be no FT position available at the end of the unpaid internship part. Did they explain why that wasn’t listed in the job posting?

      1. Augusta has gone East*

        No, they didn’t. As it’s a very small company, there’s no HR so hiring’s done by peopel being promoted put of the role. There is the promise of the job and this is how all of them started but that doesn’t mean I’ll have the same opportunity.

    2. Forkeater*

      That sounds super sketchy, I would not trust them to hire you after it ended, why would they pay for something they were getting for free?

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      This sounds utterly bonkers to me (are you in the US?) and like they don’t have the budget to hire someone, but hope the money will turn up under a couch cushion in “a few months.”

      1. Augusta has gone East*

        This is my impression as well.

        (I’m not in the US. Over here it is incredibly hard to fire someone and very expensive to create new positions, this is their reasoning behind. But this hasn’t stopped most companies to create actual positions.)

        1. blackcat*

          Europe? This would be illegal most places over there, too, I think.
          If this is outside the norm, no, I wouldn’t do it. Sounds sketchy.

        2. tamarack and fireweed*

          Frankly, if you’re in the EU, this is what the probationary period is for: At least in the UK, France or Germany, and you’re employed on an unlimited contract with a probationary period, it’s “no foul” FOR BOTH SIDES to end it during this probationary period. It’s harder afterwards.

          Back in my time in Europe, I’ve run into the problem that companies wanted to hire on *temporary* contracts, where more restrictions apply, and again both sides tend to be stuck in in the contract for a while.

          In any event, I second those who say “don’t do it (if you aren’t desperate)”. Sounds to me the company is not mature enough to offer market-standard employment conditions, so what they do amounts to dumping (whether legally or not). In any event you can expect more crap from an inexperienced organization.

          BTW if I were to decline the offer I’d spell out, politely but clearly, the reason (“[I like what you do, but…] After consideration, I realize that I do not think I should be working uncompensated at my career stage, or indeed at any career stage. I wish you luck with your mission.”) Why? Because *probably* there’s someone inside the org who isn’t too much on board with this either (see the half-hearted attempts to provide *some* compensation), and having a professionally written letter from a desirable candidate gives them ammunition to do away with this practice.

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Startups are widely known for their creative (read: illegal) pay situations, I’d be very suspicious of this.

      1. b*

        Nope. Though perhaps you could see if they had a good LinkedIn profile or a connection you could trust. There really is no advantage to you in this situation. No money, no contract, no school credits.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      This doesn’t sound like a legal unpaid internship (in the US). Those usually need to offer something of value to the intern in return for work — so like college credit. There is actually a list of criteria they need to meet and one of them is “there is no guarantee of a job at the conclusion of the internship.”

      1. Mel*

        My thoughts exactly! Klaxons went off in my head the moment unpaid internships are mentioned WITHOUT college credit (which is the easiest way to make unpaid internships legal).

      2. Filosofickle*

        IIRC my state (CA) goes even beyond this — to be legit, an unpaid internship not only has to offer real educational value, but “interns must not displace employees or do the work a paid employee would typically perform.”

        1. VelociraptorAttack*

          It’s not just CA. The Department of Labor has a 6 point test and overall the benefit needs to go to the intern and not the company for an unpaid internship to be completely on the up and up if it’s a for-profit organization.

          That’s a very very basic overview at least.

    6. Matilda Jefferies*

      I was listening to a podcast about this just yesterday! (link in reply.) The idea is that generalists sometimes have more success than specialists, and whatever you can do to gain a breadth of experience – rather than depth – is likely going to be helpful to you in the long run.

      Definitely check out the legalities of the internship as the others have suggested, and obviously it matters a lot if your family can afford it. But if those factors line up for you, there’s something to be said for trying something brand new that you haven’t done before – it could work out really well!

    7. Zephy*

      I agree that this smells fishy. The most charitable explanation I have is that they just don’t know what they’re doing and haven’t done much hiring before. Less-charitably, the role involves wearing more hats than the description would lead you to believe, they know the workload is unreasonable and anyone that takes the job will want to leave after a few months, and rather than try to hire an appropriate number of people to do the things, they’ve decided that a revolving door of free labor is more cost-effective. Is it an entry-level role, like are you trying to break into this industry, or is it a position that requires the five years of experience that you have? Especially if it’s not entry-level I would be dubious. I think you’re right that at this point, it doesn’t make sense for you to take this job.

    8. Miss Fisher*

      That sounds more like an unpaid probationary period, which I think isn’t exactly legal.

      Does anyone know, for my own curiosity, what exactly is an internship in legal terms? I didn’t think internships could be actual positions within the company. I thought they were set up within a partnership with a university for college students only.

    9. CatCat*

      It sounds super sketchy to me (pretty ballsy of them not to put in the advertisement that it was unpaid!!) and like it could cause several hardships for you. Hard pass.

    11. NopeNopeRope*

      You’re 5 years inter your career; you applied for a new job, not a volunteer gig. I’d be INCREDIBLY wary of this company. They essentially want your time and skills for free for “a few months”. Let’s say that’s 3 months/ 12 weeks. at .5 FTE, that’s 6 full weeks of work AND 12 weeks of no pay/limited ability to do other work for pay.
      Are you willing to trade that work for this connection and no guarantee of a job?

    12. 867-5309*

      Ick. No way. It’s one thing to say we’re going to start you out as a contract employee, which is more common among startups, but not paying you is ridiculous. And it’s a huge red flag that they aren’t clear about it on their website.

      This is not common at startups.

    13. Fortitude Jones*

      Yeah, I would be highly annoyed they didn’t mention the unpaid internship first in the ad and, personally, I would not accept this position. There are many companies that do paid training for people new to the industry (I did one such program about three years into my professional career at an insurance company), so the fact that they’re only giving you money for a commute and possibly lunch is ridiculous. Plus, what’s going to stop them from saying they hated your work after three months, not converting you to a paid employee, and starting all over again? Nope. I wouldn’t risk it.

    14. CoolCucumber*

      The fact that they pulled a bait and switch (made it seem like you were applying for a paid job that turned out to be an unpaid internship) would make me not trust them at all. What other things about the job are they being misleading about? And offering a job after a few months “if both parties are happy” sounds suspicious too. Why do they need “a few months” to see if someone with 5 years of profession experience (plus volunteer work and student jobs) can do the job? Can’t they just hire someone who’s a good fit and pay them from the beginning? What if, after three months, they say, “We need a few more free months to really see if you’re good or not”? What if you keep getting positive feedback and they rave about how awesome you are for three months, then say, “It just isn’t working out. We don’t want to hire you” at the end? If they only need someone to fulfill the job duties in a part time capacity, do they really need to hire someone full time?

    15. NJBi*

      I don’t know if you’re in the US or not, but here’s my armchair diagnosis of the situation if you are in the States:

      This doesn’t sound like a legal unpaid internship. Like, these are the six required criteria:
      1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment. // It would be hard to argue that this is the case considering you’re already coming in with five years of work experience. Clearly you’re above entry-level/could be taught in an education environment.
      2. The experience is for the benefit of the intern. // This is for the benefit of the company.
      3. The intern does not displace regular employees but works under close supervision of existing staff. // It sounds like they’re hiring for an open position, not a duplicate or subordinate/shadow thing.
      4. The employer providing the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded. // They are getting a lot of advantages: they don’t have to risk hiring you outright and they get your product.
      5. There is no guarantee of a job at the conclusion of the internship. // Seems sketchy with the way that they’re advertising this to you as a trial period.
      6. Both parties understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the internship. // You understand *now* I guess.

      Whether or not you’re in the US, it seems like these people are just trying to get some cheap labor and this would never transition from “internship” to “job.” A café position that gives you more time to apply for real jobs might serve you better.

      1. NJBi*

        Just saw that you’re not in the US–yeah, I don’t know. Seems fishy to this rando on the internet, though, who doesn’t know anything about your country’s particular job market!

    16. ten-four*

      My husband and I have both worked for start-ups and are reasonably up to speed on start-up best practices. This offer they are making is TOTAL NONSENSE. Companies operating in good faith pay their people – they don’t have them “audition” for months. It is the world’s reddest flag that they baited and switched on the job description. The fact that you have needs around your visa makes this flag even redder – there is little to no chance that they will help you with that, and I’m betting they’ll use your more precarious status to string you along. Other folks are making good points about the legalities too; I strongly doubt that “you work for free and we call it an internship and maybe we hire you at the end” is legal.

      You feel like you are too experienced/old to work for free because you are. There is literally nothing this start-up is offering you that is commensurate with the value that you’ll deliver. By accepting this role you’ll be accepting their frame, which is that they are SO GREAT that they are doing you a favor by allowing to prove how valuable you are. It’s the opposite: start ups need the best talent they can get so that they have a prayer of succeeding.

      I hear you on wanting to put something on your CV rather than not, but I’d look for ways to do project-based volunteer work in your field instead. You’d still be working for free, but the relationship between you and the org would be one of equals, and you could structure your time commitment to still enable you to find paying work in whatever way makes most sense for you and your partner.

      Seriously man, I’ve been around the block with startups. This is bad. Don’t do it.

    17. M*

      Sketchy as high hell, and a massive red flag not just that they didn’t mention it upfront, but that they’re the kind of workplace that thinks this is in any way acceptable. At absolute best, they’re wildly inexperienced employers with no sense of what is appropriate in hiring. At worst, they know they’re being exploitative, and there’s no way you should take their word that the internship will ever lead to a job. Run.

    18. ArtK*

      Very iffy. You can’t have an unpaid internship that gives any material benefit to the company. Lots of places got in trouble when the law changed. I’d run away.

      1. ArtK*

        Ah, not in the US so the legal stuff probably doesn’t apply. I’d still run far away from this one.

        1. Filosofickle*

          Right, being legal doesn’t make it ok. Lots of workplace shenanigans are technically legal but for one’s own sanity should be avoided.

    19. Kora*

      The fact that the job posting didn’t clearly explain what the position was is the first red flag, and it’s a massive one. The second is ‘if both parties are happy’ they’ll offer you a contract, and that’s even bigger. No goals, no performance metrics- you’re giving them months of free work and in return they’re giving you nothing. There is zero commitment in that wording to hire you at the end of this period; just them, the people who lied in their job posting, asking you to take their word for it that they’ll treat you fairly. Don’t trust them, and don’t take this position unless you have absolutely no other options.

    20. Augusta has gone East*

      Thank you so much for the reality check! Yep, it is indeed sketchy and a terrible hiring practice. I can now see that.
      I’m going to check if this is legal over here, although I’m quite sure it is.
      Hiring goes super slow from June till August here so I need to be patient in my job search and focus on learning the language. I should also remember to take a break though from school and applying as it is becoming overwhelming.
      Thanks again for your opinions, I now feel confident in turning down the offer.

      1. NJBi*

        I came back to the comments to see if you had replied, and I’m breathing a sigh of relief that you’re turning down the sketchy mcsketch sketch position! Wishing you the very best of luck with learning the language and seeking employment.

    21. CatMintCat*

      Run. Run far. Run fast.

      The labourer is worthy of his hire, and all that. They are pulling a bait and switch and I would bet big money that at the end of the unpaid bit, it’s “We’re so sorry but it isn’t working out” and on to the next unpaid bunny.

    22. Wild Bluebell*

      I wouldn’t take an unpaid internship even at the start of my career, unless it was for something like a week or two.
      I had a few internships when I was a student/graduate, and they were all paid.

  17. MOAS*

    Is putting drivers license on your resume common?

    Backstory —

    We’re hiring for remote positions and we’ve been getting A LOT of resumes that have “Drivers License” under license & certifications section of their resume. We’re a tax/accounting firm and driving is not required for this position. A lot of people who were reviewing these resumes were gobsmacked about it. The only thing I can think of is that this is common in parts of the country where public transit isn’t very common and some jobs would absolutely require having a drivers license.

    What do yall think?

    1. Rainy*

      I mean, I wonder if it’s just because they don’t have anything else under Licenses and Certifications, and they’re using a template that has that section and they don’t know they can just omit it.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      It’s common in the UK, if old-fashioned. I think the implication is “doesn’t have to rely on others for transportation”.

      1. MOAS*

        That’s what I figured — it’s common in other parts of the US where there’s no public transit, to state they have a drivers license, whether or not driving is part of the job.

    3. KR*

      I have seen job ads that require a driver’s license or say they do. Or even more strangely, that specific states drivers license that the job is in. It’s so wierd to me.

      1. MOAS*

        even if the job doesn’t require driving? We are hiring remote/WFH positions for bookkeepers. Literally 0 driving involved for hte job.

      2. AndyTron*

        I have seen this recently with places that use a one size fits all application for everything from warehouse to executive positions.

    5. Mel*

      I’ve seen one person list “German Driver’s License”. When I asked about it, he clarified that the German standards are far above the US standards.

      Driving wasn’t relevant for the job at all, so it mostly came across as arrogance.

    6. Jerk Store*

      Maybe the Licenses and Certifications was part of the template and they think they have to put something?

    7. *shrug**

      I have never heard of anyone doing this, except for people who are applying for jobs where driving is a requirement. i.e. CDL A driver would put “CDL A license on his/her resume.

      Maybe these candidates want you to know that they are capable of getting to your location for an in-person interview?

    8. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I have never seen that. Only thing I could think of is if the job required a special license for driving (like if the position was for driving large trucks or something), but otherwise that is very strange. Makes me wonder about the people applying

    9. Borgette*

      If the position is relatively entry-level, your applicants may be seeing ‘Driver’s License’ as a requirement for a surprising number of jobs, and started including it to cover those requirements and to add more content to their resumes. I remember seeing ‘must have driver’s license/transportation’ a lot in my first round of job searching after college.

    10. Bilateralrope*

      You might not realize how helpful a drivers license is to any job until you have to deal with an employee without one.

      I work security. For some sites, needing a license and car is obvious for transport to the site or sheltering the guard from the weather.

      But even sites close to public transport that have a building for the guard can find driving guards useful. Where guards on public transport can choose between leaving a few minutes early, or a 30 minute wait at the bus/train stop. Or the choice is between a few minutes late or 30 mins early. Too many choose to avoid the long wait.
      The guards with their own transport are more reliable in passing on relevant information at shift change.

      1. wittyrepartee*

        I mean, unless you live in a densely populated area with extensive public transit. Cars often are the slower means of transportation during rush hour here.

    11. cmcinnyc*

      Where I work we put “drivers license” in the job listing because it’s NYC–not everyone drives. And we do have jobs where you might need to drive (fieldwork). It is entirely possible to live here all your life and never need to get behind the wheel. Maybe your applicants are/were NYC based where having this license is actually a prized credential!

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      A friend worked for a local utility, in the IT department. They were all required to have driver’s licenses. Because in case of a union strike, he might have been required to drive the van to be a second person at a job site with the technician authorized to do the work.

    13. Moocowcat*

      Mentioning that you have a license and reliable vehicle would be common in my industry (supporting persons with developmental disabilities). It is stated on job applications that having a reliable vehicle is an asset. Though it would be odd of people were just listing a driver’s licence number on a resume.

    14. YetAnotherUsername*

      When I was learning how to write a cv I was told to put drivers license on it. Of course back then you were also advised to put that you had good health on it which would not be the advice nowadays. So it may be just outdated advice.

      However a lot of jobs DO require a drivers license so it may not be outdated advice – it may be that they are just not tailoring their entire resume to each specific job.

      I don’t think it would be considered a negative or anything – if a license isn’t needed just consider it as a neutral piece of info. You’re not hiring them to write resumes after all.

      1. MOAS*

        Oh I agree, it’s not a negative at all. I was just curious why it was so common. And someone mentioned above—none of these applicants is in NYC, it’s remote based

    15. ErinFromAccounting*

      It could *kind of* make sense for a role that involves extensive driving/travel (I applied for a gaming consulting role once, which required driving to various area casinos), but it also kind of sounds like the applicants don’t understand that the license section is referring to the CPA licences and such.

    16. Dancing Otter*

      I think these are people unclear on the concept.

      For an accounting firm, license or certification would be my CPA, possibly a CIA (certified internal auditor – surprised me too the first time I saw that one) or being an Enrolled Agent. Other professions have other certifications and licenses, but you said this is an accounting firm, right?

    17. Vendelle*

      In my line of work we are sometimes required to visit clients. Not havibg a driver’s license would mean that the manager can’t give a coworker a certain client, which is why in my field, it’s pretty common to put a drivervs license on the resume.

      1. 16 Pieces of Flair*

        These days you can get an Uber so it actually would be discriminatory for someone blind for example.

    18. 16 Pieces of Flair*

      Depends on the country. Some CV formats list it. And for some like having a HGV reads you’ve been vetted and don’t have ”hidden disabilities” , of course discriminating against would be illegal…

      I get asked ”do you drive”… I *can* drive and have a HGV licence, but *will* I drive or do I own a car…

  18. Alice*

    I’ve been looking for a new job for a while and I’m having a bit of trouble getting responses from companies. Part of the problem is that I’m trying to adjust my career path with this move. The industry I’m in is the one I want to work in but it’s split into two halves with only a few companies doing both parts, and I’m working in the wrong half. That’s making it feel difficult to make a strong case for the jobs I want.

    I’ve thought about going back to graduate school and looked into getting a job doing the kind of work I’m doing now with one of the companies that operate in both parts of the industry then using that connection for an internal transfer. Both of those options would take years to try. I’m young enough that I feel like I still have time to make a change, but not enough time to risk something that has a low chance to lead to what I’m looking for. Does anyone have any experience successfully navigating a situation like mine?

    1. Zephy*

      I don’t know, I think “When I got into this industry, I was drawn to the work on things like X and Y that my current company does. But as I’ve learned more about the industry, I realize I want to do more of what your company focuses on, like A and B” is a pretty solid argument.

      Do you need a graduate degree to do the work you want to do? Does your current employer offer any kind of tuition assistance or reimbursement for master’s degree programs? Is not having that degree the only thing standing between you and a pay increase, like you’ve been told “you’re at the salary cap for someone who doesn’t have this specific credential, and if you were to get it, we could bump your pay”? If you could cross to the other side of the industry without the degree, I would focus your energies on making that jump, and then see if your new employer will subsidize your graduate education if you decide you still need to get that credential to advance. If you can’t cross over without having the degree, then focus on that – it may require staying with your current employer for a bit longer, if they offer any kind of tuition assistance, because it’s really not worth going into debt for a master’s degree at this moment in time.

      1. Alice*

        A graduate degree isn’t essential (although it does help with pay from what I’ve seen), I’m just trying to think of ways to bridge the gap between what I’m doing and what I want to do. It seems like my current employer wants to avoid contact with their customers on the other side as much as possible, and I don’t feel like I’ve built up the relationships I think I need for effective networking.

        Since my company allows employees to view their personnel files, I recently took a look at mine so I could check old performance reviews for any details I might want to include on a resume. My boss has told me that I am at the salary cap for my position. I would imagine that this is an oversight, but my personnel file includes a transfer form from an internal transfer I did with the salary range listed. It contradicts my boss’s claim that I’m at the position cap. This is really just the tip of the iceberg, I don’t think I can trust the company on anything. I just feel like I need to get out as soon as possible.

    2. ten-four*

      Definitely don’t go to grad school on a “maybe.” This is the situation that informational interviews are MADE for. Talk to as many people in your target field as you can about what they are looking for when they hire and how you can orient your skill set to be hireable. Maybe you’ll find out that there’s a high wall that only a degree can get you over, but I bet there are other ways to get to where you want to go.

      The reality is that there are very few jobs that REQUIRE a degree and you usually know what those are (doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc). Grad school is a huge investment in dollars and time and also foregone opportunities: the earning power and working experience you sacrifice during the years you’re in school. It’s not that there’s never a reason to get a graduate degree to improve your hireability, but the bar should be pretty high! There are a LOT of people who thought grad degrees were tickets to better jobs who have discovered that they are now overqualified in education but underqualified in experience – not a great place to be.

    3. The dude*

      My situation might be similar to yours.

      I don’t know if this works in your case, but I’ve had success framing it as “Right now I’m a specialist, but I’d like to be a generalist, so I’m looking to do X to round out my skill set.”

  19. LucyHoneychurch*

    Question for loud sneezers: is this truly something you can’t control? I work in an open area with two very loud, sudden sneezers *behind me* who regularly startle the daylights out of me. If you tell me you can’t control this, I will try harder to not hate them.

      1. valentine*

        I tend toward a double ah-CHOO! or an ah-CHOO! ah-CHOO-OO-OO! It’s super over-the-top and either hilarious or annoying. Sometimes it just comes out. If I feel it coming and have enough lead time, I can press my tongue to the roof of my mouth to suppress it altogether (maybe tell your coworkers about this). Usually, though, I panic because I have to choose between that and holding my chest so it doesn’t hurt. I also have to quickly assess whether I am in public and, if so, figure out how to hold my chest so I am not grabbing my breast whilst double-screamzing.

    2. INeedANap*

      I think there is some level of control, but it’s not perfect. You don’t need to take a deep breath in for “power” and vocalize when you sneeze; I find that a smaller breath in and not making the “achooo” noise with my vocal chords helps the loudness. The sneeze itself makes a noise, though, and that I can’t control.

    3. fposte*

      It’s not uncontrollable, but it’s also not voluntary. Most people can learn to reshape their sneeze sound, but it takes time, and it has to occur to them as a possibility first.

    4. V*

      Personally, I can’t stop the suddenness, but I can usually stop / reduce the loudness (although it is *slightly* painful to me to do so). I do stifle the loudness at work in this way because a small amount of pain to me is outweighed by everyone else’s comfort!

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Yes, this.

        I am gobsmacked at the amount of people that sneeze a monsoon everywhere. Most of them are my extended family. yuck…

        I find that if I sneeze into my elbow I can cut a lot of the noise, not all of it. I am a loud sneezer and at times startle myself.

    5. Rainy*

      It depends. I have a couple of regular sneeze triggers, and there are definitely some that I cannot stifle at all.

      Remember that when you “control the volume” of a sneeze, what you’re doing is stifling that sneeze, meaning that the sneeze is no less forceful, but the force is travelling backward through your sinuses, throat, and Eustachian tubes. If someone has blocked sinuses or habitually swollen Eustachian tubes, or if they have middle ear issues, stifling a sneeze might not be possible at all, or only with massive pain and possibly fucking up their ears.

      Sudden allergy triggers–like perfume from a passing coworker, or a huge unexpected snootful of pollen–are the ones I am least able to stifle, because they happen so quickly and so explosively that there’s no time to stifle them. The “ah…ah…ah…ah…ah…ah…CHOO” type are for me the easiest to stifle, because of the long lead time (all the ah’s). Those I can usually turn into an “ah(x)…SNRK” noise instead, but if my sinuses are full or whatever, it’s better to let the sneeze out so I can use it to blow my nose.

      1. fposte*

        I think it depends what you mean by “control the volume”–usually people are talking about the vocalization, and controlling that volume doesn’t redirect the force of the sneeze. So this isn’t pinching off a sneeze, just changing the *AAAAAAAHH*-choooooo to an Aaaah-choo.

        1. Rainy*

          For me the inhale portion isn’t the loud bit, it’s the explosion on the back end that’s loud. I don’t vocalize my sneezes, those are literally the sounds the air makes rushing into or out of my body.

          1. fposte*

            If you’re a non-vocalizer, then there’s probably not much you can do. But it’s common to vocalize to some extent (and the loudest sneezers–I think somebody here called one a “scream-sneezer”–usually do), so there’s often room for some modification there.

      2. NothingIsLittle*

        That’s the case for me, too. If I feel the sneeze coming on, I can stifle it quite easily, but if it’s unexpected I’m going to sneeze and it’s going to be loud. The “choo” sound, for me at least, doesn’t engage the vocal cords at all and is instead the result of the way my face involuntarily scrunches when I sneeze. In response to fposte, it’s more an aaaah-*CHOO* than an *AAAAH*-choo.

      3. EnfysNest*

        Yeah, when I was little, I got a lot of comments about how loud my sneezes were (“Whoa, who let the elephant in?” – stuff like that). It was so embarrassing, but the I couldn’t figure out how to sneeze quieter, so instead I started pinching my nose closed every time I had to sneeze. It altered the way I sneeze and now, even though I no longer pinch my nose, my sneezes don’t really go “out”, they just kind of cause a weird pressure for a moment and I make a strange sound that makes people ask if I just sneezed or had some sort of cough/hiccup thing, because it doesn’t sound like a sneeze does. I can’t control it or change it now. I’m sure it can’t be good for me to sneeze this way, and it makes me sad that little elementary-school-aged me was so embarrassed by people commenting on my loud sneezes that I permanently altered a basic bodily function to try to avoid the attention. And now I still get comments like “I’m not sure it’s good for you to sneeze like that,” and all I can do is shrug because I have no way of changing it now.

    6. Nikara*

      Yes, I really can’t control it the vast majority of the time. Sometimes I feel a sneeze coming and can stop it, but most of the time I can’t. And no matter what, I can’t control the volume of the sneeze. But I have upped my allergy meds recently, so I’m sneezing less :)

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      I think it’s uncontrollable. And that as with coughing–the person who is about to violently expel air has a moment’s warning, while the people around them do not. So it’s much more distracting and aggravating to the audience.

    8. Grace*

      I genuinely can’t change or control the volume.

      Apparently, my sneeze doesn’t actually sound like a sneeze and sounds more like a cough, judging by the number of times people have offered to get me a glass of water as opposed to saying ‘Bless you’, but I can’t change the volume. I don’t do the thing where you basically engage your vocal cords and say ‘Achoo’ (why do people do that? Is *that* on purpose?) but I do make a fairly loud noise. I can’t help it. A large volume of air being suddenly expelled makes a noise, I don’t know what to tell you.

      I do the vampire sneeze where I muffle it in the crook of my elbow, but beyond that, there’s not anything I can do.

    9. Sneezy*

      Please don’t hate them. As someone with a deviated septum that doesn’t rise to the level of needing surgery, I have a sneeze that is both loud and distinctive. When I worked in an open office, I would sneeze and people would call out, ‘Bless you Sneezy!” from 8 rows away. It’s horribly embarrassing, but I can’t afford to pay for the surgery out of pocket. I can assure you that your co-workers hate their sneezes way ore than you do.

    10. Myrin*

      Like others before me said, I can kinda control it but not really, if that makes sense? If I’m not taken by surprise by my own sneeze, I can technically reduce it to (what I’ve always considered) that weird “mpf” sound many people make, but that means the sneeze itself doesn’t “come out” – it just kind of goes back into my head and then I feel like my brain is going to fall out and get an honest-to-god headache because of it. However, I generally make sure to cover basically the whole lower half of my face when I’m sneezing amongs others and that – confirmed by others – helps a lot with the general level of loudness.

    11. IndieGir*

      Generally, while I can muffle a sneeze somewhat, if I try to stifle it significantly (ie, like when I”m at a concert/theater or something) it causes a back up of something (probably air) into my eustachian tubes and gives me significant ear pain. So yeah, sometimes it’s hard to sneeze more quietly.

      But, if they are not at least covering their mouths (which should make it quieter) then that is just plain gross.

    12. Sneezer*

      No one is sneezing at you on purpose. I’m not going to stifle a sneeze and cause myself pain, so deal with it. And I could not remotely care if you “hate” me. You’re probably just as annoying to the sneezers with your over the top reaction to a normal bodily function.

        1. fposte*

          It’s an excessive response, but “hate” was a pretty OTT word to use in the question, too.

      2. Foreign Octopus*

        This is an excessive response. LucyHoneychurch was asking a simple question and you just jumped on them for it.

        I’m a loud sneezer and I dislike other loud sneezers because I jump at loud, unexpected noises. If it was happening with regularity around me, I’d also be feeling very annoyed. They’re just asking whether it’s justified being annoyed, not condemning loud sneezers to hell for all eternity. Ease up a little.

      3. LucyHoneychurch*

        I think you misread my tone. Most of the responders seem to get that my word choice was tongue-in-cheek. I don’t literally hate my coworkers for this or any other behaviors.

    13. ThatGirl*

      Best I can do is muffle my sneezes a bit (into my arm/downward direction) – can’t change the volume they actually happen at!

      1. Miss Ames*

        I’ve always been a forceful sneezer since I was a child. But I don’t do it purposely in any way. I work in a small office so I keep a box of tissues at hand and if at all possible, I grab one to muffle the sound when I feel a sneeze coming on.

    14. blackcat*

      I am an extremely loud sneezer. It is very loud and very high pitched. Picture a normal sneeze mixed with stepping on a dog squeaky toy. And then making that super loud. It’s very unpleasant for everyone involved.
      I can, with great effort, control my sneezes. It causes intense pain, and twice I have dislocated a rib as a result of holding in/quieting a sneeze. So I only try to hold them in if absolutely necessary. Dislocated ribs aren’t that painful, but they’re hard to put back in and it’s generally a miserable experience.

    15. LucyHoneychurch*

      This has been very enlightening — thank you for your (mostly) kind and helpful responses. I shall adjust my attitude accordingly ;-p

    16. bassclefchick*

      Sometimes I can, sometimes I can’t. Sometimes I even startle myself! If I know it’s coming, I’ll try to warn my husband. I know my sneezing is very loud and sudden. I don’t take a big breath first. I’ll apologize to whoever is around me. Trust me, I would LOVE to have a tiny, delicate, sneeze.

    17. Becky*

      It is sometimes really difficult to control sneezes. I actually have pretty good control of them (abdominal surgery will force you to to figure it out fast!) but even then there are monster sneezes that come out of nowhere and are impossible to control.

    18. !*

      Yeah, I can usually catch my sneezes in a tissue so they are’t as loud…my hiccups on the other hand….yikes! Thankfully those don’t happen often! :)

    19. designbot*

      I can very rarely control mine, only if I feel it coming and actively try to stifle. But most of the time it takes me so completely by surprise that I don’t have the chance to.

    20. StressedButOkay*

      I 100% absolutely cannot control how loudly I sneeze! And trust me, with how bad my allergies are, I really wish I could!

      As a small woman, I have startled people with the loudness of my sneezing. I have also, in the midst of a sneezing attack, actually pulled muscles in my ribs and back before due to the sheer power of my sneezes (and with the number of times). As a Loud Sneezer™, I feel really bad for anyone near me but I truly can’t help it. (I do work from home when I have a cold or allergy attack but this doesn’t stop the random ninja sneeze.)

      I am completely envious of anyone who has gentle, small sneezes.

    21. CupcakeCounter*

      My mother (and her entire family) and my husband (and his mother/grandmother) are like this. No they cannot control it and and yes I also get the ever living crap scared out of me. My husband has left movie theaters when he felt a sneeze coming on. I still heard it from the hallway.

    22. Defective Jedi*

      A friend has developed a cue to signal her friends and colleagues when she is about to (loudly) sneeze. Now when we hear three quick finger snaps, we know what’s coming and nobody is startled. Works great for everyone!

    23. Sneeze McSneeze*

      I can’t control it. I’m sorry. I’m a multiple sneezer as well (consistently 3 or 4 in a row but sometimes more). It’s a running joke in every office I’ve ever been in. People either ignore me, wait until I’ve hit my “quota” before I get my “bless you” (if I don’t hit it, I’m told I don’t get my “bless you”), or will yell “C’mon! I made a bet on 5/6/7/8 sneezes today!”

      I do try to muffle it by sneezing into my elbow.

    24. Lilysparrow*

      It’s very much like burps or hiccups.

      You can be generally quieter most of the time, but there will always be an occasional one that sneaks up on you and is surprisingly loud. And that percentage is going to vary from person to person.

      If they’re really loud all the time, that could be moderated by most people.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Then there are sneezers like my dad, who has incorporated a sort of shout at the end of his sneezes. So it’s sort of a gasp-choo-BGAAAAAAAARGH!

        He could totally leave off the shout without hurting himself, he just can’t be bothered.

        1. SciDiver*

          One of my parents is a scream-sneezer, but both the sneeze and the recovery are extra-loud, like ka-CHOO!!! *pause* AUUUGGGGH. I know they can stifle it in quiet/formal settings (meetings, quiet restaurant, church services) because those are the only places it’s a quiet/normal volume, but otherwise it makes me jump every time I visit.

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          God knows why, my dad always yells “ACHUGGAH” when he sneezes. I don’t even KNOW.

        3. Joielle*

          OMG my dad does this too. And it’s always after a bunch of sneezes in a row, so… gasp-choo-gasp-choo-gasp-choo-gasp-choo-gasp-choo-BGAAAAAAAARGH

          It’s SO IRRITATING. The man also doesn’t close his mouth when he chews. I love him but absolutely cannot spend more than two days with him at a time.

    25. Liz*

      I CAN but as someone with severe allergies and usually congested, sneezing helps clear things out. So if I’m forced to “muffle” it as someone else pointed out, it kind of backs up into things. whereas if i can just let it go, which can be loud, it helps my congestion etc. immensely.

    26. Dr. Anonymous*

      Can’t help it. I don’t even have a “choo”; it’s all “AAAAHH!” And there are always two of them. I’m sorry.

    27. Jaydee*

      I can, but only a little and not consistently. Some sneezes are so sudden I barely have a chance to get my arm up to block them. Others, I feel that tickle in my nose for a bit beforehand so I can do a better job of preparing. But as others have described, volume control is basically stifling the sneeze, so it’s absorbing some of the force of the sneeze into my head. And even then, it maybe dials the volume down a notch (from an 8 to a 7) not truly making it quiet

      That said, I am fascinated by people with consistently tiny or dainty or squeaky sounding sneezes. How do their sneeze parts work to produce those sounds?!? Humans are just so amazingly diverse and unique!

    28. Kiki*

      It depends on what you mean by loud sneezers.
      There are definitely some sneezes that are loud because of vocalization (like when you can hear a voice-ish noise saying “AAA CHOOOOO”). That aspect can be controlled to some degree.

      There are some loud sneezes (like mine) that are loud because of the way air is moving (think sneezes that sound more like coughs). Those can be mitigated, but usually at the expense of the sneezer. Like, it might make things hurt or plug up their ears, or cause them to sneeze more to fully get the irritant out.

      It’s one of those body things where nobody really *wants* a loud sneeze but some people’s bodies just work like that and it’s usually best to just accept sneezes the way they are.

    29. Akcipitrokulo*

      It depends. Sometimes I’m able to stifle completely. Sometimes there’s a sudden elephant in the room.

    31. EH*

      I sometimes sneeze hard enough that it makes my sternum hurt. (My doctor’s advice: don’t sneeze so hard. Thanks, doc.) I don’t vocalize much, but it can be really loud if my body is trying really hard to get rid of something. I can (and mostly do) stifle gentler sneezes, but the big ones are painful to stifle and leave my head feeling kind of weird, so I generally don’t.
      Thankfully(?) I don’t sneeze that often anymore. I do cough almost all the time, though – the horrible wildfires we had a couple years ago left me with a really reactive airway.

    32. Llama Face!*

      I really can’t help it without injury to myself. If I try to stifle it I end up pulling muscles. I know of a guy who gave himself a hernia trying to stifle a full body sneeze. My body- like that guy’s- just really goes all out with the sneezes. :( (And weirdly enough, always in sets of 3)

    33. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Totally out of my control. And it’s hereditary — my mother had a neighbor complain, and my daughter gets teased.

    34. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’m all over the map. Sometimes I’m loud, sometimes I’m quiet, and I don’t really have much say in which. I also have post-nasal drip, asthma, and allergies – so I sneeze and blow my nose year round and do a lot of coughing as well depending.

      Trust me, as annoying as it is for you, it’s far worse for me.

    35. Quinalla*

      I can reduce the volume – especially if I feel it coming – mostly by covering my nose and mouth sufficiently and making sure I’m not vocalizing, but my sneezes are always louder than average even when doing that. I do think some loud sneezers don’t try (because they don’t care or it hadn’t occurred to them) to modulate their volume.

      I’ll be honest the people the irritate me the most are the ones who hold in their sneezes. It makes me wince internally in sympathy :)

    36. Hamtaro*

      when i am alone i allow myself the scream-sneeze. but it IS something i can control and i do a quiet sneeze when i’m at work haha

    37. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I’ve had nasal surgery, and since then sneezing just sort of happens at the volume at which it happens. I’m occasionally quite surprised by how loud a sneeze is when it comes. I don’t want it to be that loud. I just don’t know it’s going to be that loud until it’s already happened.

    38. geopanda*

      I have two of these at my job too. One of them sits all the way down the hall, so his screams are muffled. The other one sits maybe about 50 feet away, which sounds far, but she screams very loudly. Like a bloodcurdling scream. Also very sudden too. To the point where if I’m holding something or drinking coffee at the moment she sneezes, I accidentally drop the item or splash the coffee all over my face. It happened often enough that I got a cup with a straw instead of an open cup because I don’t want to scald my face.

    39. AndyTron*

      I have terrible allergies at times and the options are either loud, continuous sneezing, or I pinch my nose and have incredibly painful blowback in my sinuses.

    40. Loud Nose*

      I have a very loud sneeze, but it’s not like an Ah-choo, it’s just the sneeze, there isn’t a vocal part really, just my loud nose. (Blowing my nose is also incredibly loud, I wouldn’t blow my nose at all for years, even at home, because I was embarrassed by it!)

      I can lower the sneeze volume by holding the sneeze back, but it hurts and goes from startlingly loud to regular loud. I will try to do it, but if I’m sneezing often (like during allergy season or if I’m around a cat), it hurts too much to do every time and can pop my ears very badly. It also makes my eyes feel like they’re going to pop out! But I will try, especially if I’m in a meeting, or somewhere solemn (weddings…with the flowers…oh man…)

      I will not blow my nose anywhere outside my home/car but the bathroom while flushing for cover because it is so loud. I’ve tried to blow quietly, but it doesn’t really work.

    41. D'Euly*

      A family member used to (deliberately) make the noise “HatchiBOMBatar!” whenever he sneezed, so perhaps you could feel grateful that they’re not doing that?

    42. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      “Collapse 60 replies”, heh. I salute my fellow loud sneezers.

      I am a loud enough sneezer that we used to joke my mom could hear me in NYC when I lived in California. (I get my generous sinuses from my mom’s side of the family; she’s louder than me.) If I’m outside I can sometimes hear the echo of my sneeze ring off the building across the street. It’s… quite a thing.

      My partner is very easily startled. When I can, I gasp out “Sneeze—” so they have time to cover their ears before I let loose. I also carry a handkerchief and try to sneeze into it, which muffles the sound. But I can’t always manage it; sometimes sneezes sneak up on me, especially if there are airborne allergens around. Stifling sneezes is incredibly painful and I won’t do it unless I absolutely have to, for “the baby is finally asleep and if you wake them I will END YOU” levels of have to.

      You can definitely ask your colleagues (who are certainly aware that their sneezes are loud) to try to mitigate the noise or give you some kind of warning, but you may just have to cope. Foam earplugs or noise-canceling headphones might help if your job permits.

  20. Adventures of Corporate cat*

    Funny things said and done at work this week:

    “Are you teh work wife or the work husband?” – “I’m the work cat.”

    —

    “My computer froze so my brain froze too.”

    —

    “I gotta go, ASPCA is going to come get me.”

    I did an interview and the candidate’s child burst through the door, a la the BBC reporter incident (but this child was older and left immediately).

    We totally laughed together and it didn’t negatively impact our opinion of her and we called her in for the next step.

    1. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

      I have a coworker who sometimes wears a shirt that says “I can’t. I’m an inside cat.” It makes me laugh every time.

  21. WM*

    What would you choose?

    High salary and high cost living or low salary and low cost of living?

    I know there are high salary and low cost of living, but in my situation of job interviewing, it is the situation above. Love to hear your thoughts!

    1. INeedANap*

      I would choose low salary, low cost of living, because the salary can always go up while the COL will usually stay low. Whereas with a high COL, if you’re laid off, or the job turns out to be awful and you have to leave it, or you become disabled/can’t work – then your life is pegged to needing that high salary just to have the basics of life.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Whereas with a high COL, if you’re laid off, or the job turns out to be awful and you have to leave it, or you become disabled/can’t work – then your life is pegged to needing that high salary just to have the basics of life.

        Good point. Though if you had a high salary position, hopefully you’d be able to put enough away in savings so that if you did become long-term unemployed for whatever reason, you’d have enough money to relocate to a lower cost of living area so you wouldn’t have to struggle too much. Additionally, some employers offer supplemental insurances you can purchase like accident or critical illness insurance that will cover your rent payments up to a certain amount/time period should you be unable to work for a given period of time due to an injury/illness. I have this insurance myself, and it’s pretty inexpensive.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      For me, this decision hinges on what my expenses look like. For example, I have a ton of student loan debt, so a low paying job will simply not work for me unless I’m okay either being homeless or moving back in with my mother, neither of which is an option. If I didn’t have the student loan debt I have, I could accept a low salary in a low cost of living area and be okay because my housing expense isn’t nearly as high as my student loan debt.

      So basically – look at your expenses. What do you spend in rent/mortgage payments, debts (student/credit/medical), and what amount of disposable income do you need to live comfortably each month? That should help you figure out what works best for your particular situation.

      1. YetAnotherUsername*

        Yes. Delete the cost of living from the salary and you have your disposable income. This is what you should compare for the two jobs.

    3. Blarg*

      Generally I like the things that make high COL places that way — public transit, culture, big city life. If it were high COL on like a remote fancy tropical island, nope. But for me living in a city makes me happier and my life easier by my standards (being near museums, not needing a car) that it trumps low COL without those perks.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, I’m fundamentally a high COL person — I want to live in an east coast city, not have a car, etc.

      2. *shrug**

        + 1

        I grew up in a major city and cannot see myself living anywhere except near/right outside of a major city.

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup, that’s why I live in the city as well. I’m within walking distance of cool restaurants, music venues, museums, art galleries, theaters, etc. I couldn’t live in the ‘burbs no matter how moderately priced it is.

      4. Joielle*

        Same. I have a couple of friends that moved to South Dakota after law school and bought gigantic houses for like $85,000 and are always saying we should move there because it’s so much cheaper than the city where we live. We paid more than twice that for a tiny little bungalow and absolute postage stamp of a yard but I wouldn’t trade it for all the rural McMansions in the world, no matter how cheap they are.

      5. Bostonian*

        Ditto. I also like the idea of being able to one day sell my ridiculously expensive condo and buy a mansion in a low COL area for half the price.

    4. Miss Fisher*

      I think it depends on where you want to live. I prefer a slower pace instead of a huge city. Where I live now is middle of the road on both, but I couldn’t see myself living in a place like LA for any amount of money.

    5. Overeducated*

      I couldn’t make this choice without all the other factors! There tend to be a lot of lifestyle differences between high and low cost of living areas, and if a partner who works is involved then that can make a difference too (sometimes more jobs in HCOL areas, but easier to live on one income in LCOL).

    6. Art3mis*

      I’ve been stuck on lower/low for a long time and I’m kind of sick and tired of it. But then again before that I was stuck in higher/low for a long time, so I don’t know what’s better. For me I preferred the latter just because my family/friends were there and other things I like to do were more of an option there.

    7. Honoria Glossop*

      I think it depends on how flexible your plans are for the future and how far along in your career you are. I would personally go for the high salary/high cost option because that gives me better leverage to keep a higher salary for the next job, which might be in a place where the cost of living is lower. If you don’t have the flexibility to change locations every time you change jobs (spouses job, family commitments), then YMMV.

    8. designbot*

      I’ve had this choice right out of grad school, and chose high salary/high cost of living. My logic was that even though housing costs adjust by location, my student loans don’t. So if in each place say everything else scales appropriately and I have 10% of my income to pay towards my student loans, my available contribution will be higher in the higher COL area and I’ll get them paid off more quickly.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Oh yeah — I paid half my income in rent for a long time in two different places, and it was a huge difference when my rent was $500 vs when it was $1000!

    9. Mel*

      All else being equal, high/high. Means you save at a high rate, and can move to a low COL in retirement with plenty of money in the bank (but you probably can’t pull off the reverse). Means you won’t be shocked when you travel for vacation. Means you can build up a safety net faster and move if you lose your job.

    10. Earthwalker*

      Depends on time of life, willingness to move, and whether you own your place. We started out in a high cost of living place with a tiny suburban home, and later took a company transfer to a lower cost city. Moving house costs money, even when the move is company-paid, because any time you sell/buy a house you pay real estate transaction costs. That said, the sale of our tiny expensive place bought a house in the country twice as big. Then we downsized at retirement and got the savings back out in cash. It was like investing in real estate without the pain and risks of being a landlord. We’re reasonably well off retired in a rural city. We like that but some people might consider living outside the big city a downside.

      Another note on high cost places: when we had moved, several of my coworkers and I compared the difference. We concluded that the extra salary paid in the high cost city didn’t go as far as the lower salary that the same company paid us in our low cost city. YMMV, of course.

    11. Anonymous Educator*

      I generally choose high salary high cost of living, because I tend to like living in cities that have a high cost of living (some of it is the city itself’s appeal, and some of it is being a particular non-white minority who doesn’t want to deal with certain things if I’m “the only” somewhere).

    12. lemon*

      I think you’ve got to work the budgets to see if that high salary in the high cost of living area is actually all that high.

      You would have to make at least $129k to afford an apartment and basic expenses in San Francisco (this is assuming an average rent of $3600/month and that rent is 1/3 of gross income).

      Compare that to Columbus, OH, where you would only have to make about $32k to afford an apartment and basic expenses (assuming an average rent of $900/month and that rent is 1/3 of gross income).

      1. geopanda*

        I live in Metro Detroit where my cost of living is probably similar to Columbus, Ohio. My monthly expenses are around $1k-1100 per month, rent for a 1br apt is $650 and the rest are other expenses. I do need a car though. I have lived in a city where I did not need a car and I don’t like driving as a result of that. But I have a short commute, so it’s not a big issue. A salary of $32k for a single person here would be enough to support basic expenses.

    13. new kid*

      I just moved from lower salary/ low col (midwest) to a much higher salary/higher col (east coast) and it was 100% the right move for me – closer to friends, more queer friendly, better social and career opportunities, etc. But I know a ton of people I would absolutely recommend the opposite to – it really depends on your lifestyle and the types of things and experiences you value. I used to own a house and now I have a tiny one bedroom for DOUBLE my old mortgage!! Honestly, if I wasn’t gay I don’t know if I would have left the midwest. Your money can go a long way in a city like Kansas City (where I lived last).

      1. geopanda*

        It really depends on where in the Midwest. I live in Metro Detroit. I’m also gay and I find it’s not much of an issue here especially in Ferndale/Royal Oak and there are lots of explicitly LGBT friendly businesses or events. I have lived in NYC too and in Toronto, Canada and I haven’t noticed a big difference in LGBT acceptance. But Kansas City would be a whole different ball game. I don’t think I would want to live in most of the Midwest.

        1. matcha123*

          Not gay, but a visible minority and when people online say ‘midwest’ I never know where they are talking about. I only really consider the Great Lakes states as the midwest, and maybe as far as Iowa, but I definitely do not put Kansas as the midwest. Totally different culture.
          Just like upper New York or much of California are going to be different from NYC or LA, SF…

    14. Jaydee*

      I think it depends on 1) will the salary be enough to cover *your* expenses plus savings? and 2) what are your future plans?

      Like Fortitude Jones said, some costs are going to exist no matter where you go or how much you’re paid. Student loan debt for example. If you wouldn’t make enough to cover those expenses, it doesn’t really matter what the salary is.
      Also, if you make $40,000 and have $30,000 of expenses you’re actually better off than someone who makes $100,000 and has $90,000 of expenses. The $10,000 you saved will stretch farther than the $10,000 they saved.

      The other thing is the future. I know people who lived and worked in a high COL area, bought a house or apartment, did their thing, weren’t rich by the standard of living there but then later moved to a lower COL area and the amount of equity they had in their home was plenty to buy a nice house outright in their new city. So even though they then earned less at new jobs, they also didn’t have to worry about a mortgage payment. So looking at where you want to end up makes a difference too.

    15. Another worker bee*

      All things being equal: high/high. (this excludes, in my mind, a few coastal cities notorious for INSANELY high COL, because they are at like 3x the COL of my high COL city while offering like…20% more in pay). Like other commenters have said, your disposable income after rent, etc. will still be scaled, so you will be able to save more, etc. Also in general, those high COL places are that way because there is more opportunity. Hopefully you’ll stay at your job for awhile, but you’ll likely have better options for the next job in the bigger city. (YMMV based on industry, of course)

    16. Lilysparrow*

      What’s the relative lifestyle effect? It’s unlikely to be dead even.

      There are high/high situations where housing costs are disproportionate to other col, and result in a cramped/under-maintained space, long commute, undesirable school district, etc. While the “low” salary might give you a much higher quality of life in the low col area.

      OTOH, sometimes the added expenses of keeping a car, homeownership vs rental, etc, mean a low col area isn’t very low-cost for you.

      Length of commitment is also important, as others pointed out. If you’re early in your career and will likely move several times, especially if you have no kids or other caregiving responsibilities, living small in a big city can allow you to make hay while the sun shines and be in a much better financial position later.

      If you’re going to wind up with the same margin of savings either way, choose based on other factors, like prestige, interesting projects, stress level, or proximity to your personal interests.

    17. wittyrepartee*

      Choose the area you like living in best. I make a medium salary in a high cost of living area, and it’s totally worth it. It fills me with joy every day. I love my city.

    18. NoLongerYoung*

      I am high salary (now) and very high COL. But… my social security for retirement will be pegged off my income for the last “X” quarters of my work career. That makes it worth it to me (I will be retiring to a low COL area).

      One other reason? I work a very interesting – demanding – but fascinating job. My brain is oh, so happy with the challenging tasks and information I get to use strategical daily. I would be hard pressed to find this job outside of a high COL area, at this stage of my career. (I have looked – my skill set and expertise has gotten so specialized and higher level that it would be a 2/3 drop in salary to even take a similar titled job – if one existed – in a related industry).

      Ramifications… Out of my take-home (20% goes into savings before that, though)… 60% is going for my rent and utility bills (no cable, frugal). No car payment. High COL also means high car insurance, gas costs and more. And I’m not in luxury digs, trust me. I’ve looked around and I’d have to commute an additional hour to get a better neighborhood for the same money. So I will hang tight for the next 7.5 years (if I can).

      But my retirement numbers look better than if I went to my home state, and divided my salary by 3. Then I’d have to work until I’m 80.

      Lesson – save early, save continuously, even if $5 a week, for retirement. It matters. I didn’t (circumstances beyond my control at the time). So… stuck here for a while yet, but making the best of it.

    19. Quinalla*

      For me it would come down to which place I wanted to live and doing an actual comparison of the salary vs. expenses.

      I will say my sticker shock at grocery store prices when moving from super-low-cost-of-living (rural Midwest) to still low but more moderate cost of living area (suburb of “big city” Midwest) was a tough adjustment. I still don’t like it, though I’m used to it now.

    21. 16 Pieces of Flair*

      I was on high salary and high costs and I am now laid off and seriously ****’d (and not in a good way), so another vote for ”low cost of living”, regardless of salary.

  22. Leslie Knope*

    I’ve been burning to ask this for a while!

    But who, on television, is the worst boss of all time?

    Michael Scott is too obvious (I mean, obviously he’d be up there) – but I’d love to know other bosses, especially surprising ones, from television who are terrible. Wonderfully specific examples welcome.

    As a follow-up Q – what are some of the most terrible moments of management/workplace behaviour on television?

    1. Rainy*

      Honestly? Captain James T Kirk is probably one of the worst bosses of all time. He can’t go half an hour without getting one of his reports killed. He facilitates siloing in his subordinates, has super close friendships with his most direct reports, constantly hits on people at conferences leaving his employees to shrug and explain it with “boys will be boys”, and he refuses to follow official regulatory guidance in culturally sensitive situations.

    2. Madam Secretary*

      Claire Underwood did some pretty ratchet stuff. She was cut throat.

      It probably wouldn’t be fun working for Tony Sopano either.

    3. Cruciatus*

      It was only one episode, but Mr. Faber on Roseanne was pretty awful. So probably not “worst of all time” but still bad. He upped the quota the factory workers had to hit and they all knew they couldn’t do it. He told them they’d hit it or be out. The workers nominated Roseanne to talk with him and he said he’d lower it…if she gave him respect and no lip. It works for a little while, though she already feels like she sold her soul for a lower quota. But then he tells everyone he’s raising it again and Roseanne and a bunch of her factory friends all walk out. “Guess we’re not gonna make our quota today, honey bunch.”

      1. sheworkshardforthemoney*

        Oh yes, and he used the most offensive analogy about making cows give milk while talking to her.

    4. merp*

      On The Bold Type, the younger employees just bring *so much* of their personal drama to work, going as far as to have long drawn-out conversations about personal health/relationship/etc problems with their bosses, and it always makes me think of this website and the need for boundaries, haha.

      I like the boss herself for the most part, although she should be shutting down more of those conversations, she’s pretty fantastic. I just can’t get over the behavior of the women who work for her!

    5. MonteCristo85*

      Rachel from Friends was pretty awful. Fired someone on their first day because she had a crush on another candidate, dated her assistant, blamed him for her own screw-ups, etc.

      1. Leslie Knope*

        YES! Watching her actions back as someone who is now not 11 years old, and instead has worked in the workplace with normal working expectations for a few years – she’s horrendous!

    6. Lizzy May*

      Don Draper was a horrible boss to his team and his secretaries. He threw money in Peggy’s face, slept with Allison and Megan, paid absolutely no attention to his creative team at all, got into an office war with every superior he had and ruined client meetings because of his emotional distress. Also, he’d just disappear sometimes. I don’t think there is a great boss on Mad Men, but Don was probably the worst.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Nah, Roger was worse – Don was just following Roger’s horrible lead. When your boss invites you to a wedding where they sing in blackface, yeah, you suck as a manager.

        1. Patty Mayonnaise*

          Bert Cooper was the OG boss who didn’t do anything. That disfunction went straight to the top. I guess the message was that the secretaries and creative held the operation together but I sometimes wonder how that company even existed in the first place.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Lol I love how Bert just comes into the office, takes his shoes off, plops down in his chair, and reads the paper all day. That’s it – he’s #goals.

    7. Lizzy May*

      My workplace has just sent out our annual employee survey and I have issues I’d like to raise, but despite the claims of anonymity, I do think it would be fairly easy for management to narrow down who leaves what comments. We don’t have skip level meetings and management doesn’t do 360 reviews for themselves so there isn’t really a way to provide feedback up. Is there a way to raise concerns about management without worrying that it will be held against me? (And yes, I’m looking for a new job because I know I shouldn’t feel this way in a job but in the meantime…)

      2. IL JimP*

        If you’re leaving already you might want to do it damn the consequences but maybe you can disguise your writing style. Usually when people are found out it’s because they wrote the comments the way they normally write or speak.

        1. SarahKay*

          You could explain what you want to say to a non-work friend and ask them to write it out in their own words. Then copy-paste their response, complete with any typos or spelling mistakes. That’d remove any common phrasing or errors (or lack of errors) that you use / make regularly.

    8. Jerk Store*

      Salena Meyer, Ben Cafferty and Congressman Furlong on Veep are the worst bosses I think of.

      Terrible management moment: I always think it was unfair that Monica got fired for accepting a gift from a vendor. The scene reads like she didn’t know it was a policy.

    10. Not really a waitress*

      I had to quit watching Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell because “the Gentleman” triggered me so badly. He reminded me of my then boss.

      1. Grace*

        The Gentleman is *such* a dick. I haven’t seen the show yet but I’ve heard that his portrayal is a bit different in that than it is in the book, in terms of how his manipulation works and the particular flavour of dickishness, so you might be able to stomach that more. (It’s worth it.)

        Speaking of which, Norrell is a *terrible* boss. Childermass deserves better, dammit. (Not getting anymore detailed than that, because spoilers for anyone that hasn’t got the end of the book/show, but *wow* is that the worst move ever from an employer.)

        1. wittyrepartee*

          YES! Norrell is an absolutely awful boss to both Childermass and Jonathan Strange. He stifles the growth of his “industry” for reasons of vanity. He doesn’t recognize the talents of Childermass due to classism, and recognizes but stifles the talents of Jonathan Strange. He consistently interferes with the home-life of his employees if they have one, and won’t train or recognize talent in women because of his complete disinterest in them. He hides important information from his employees because he doesn’t like the implications of that information, and creates bottlenecks for no reason but to keep things from getting out of his micromanaging control. However, despite being a micromanager, he fails to notice the gross incompetence or malevolence of some of his other associates (Drawlight and Lascelles).

          1. wittyrepartee*

            That whole part where he’s like

            Norrell: “Childermass! You betrayed me by learning magic! How did you learn magic!?”
            Childermass: “Umm, you taught this to me in case I needed to figure out if someone else was doing practical magic on my journeys”
            Norrell: “Oh yeah. BUT WHY WERE YOU USING IT.”
            Childermass: “Because it was pretty obvious that someone was using magic!”
            Norrell: “Yeah. But still. Betrayal!”

            1. Grace*

              Also, the culmination of that entire employee-employer relationship.

              “Oh no, one of my employees, who has only worked for me for a couple of years and has a track record of terrible advice and blatant lies, has pinned the other, with nearly three decades of loyal service, up against the wall to slice his face open with malignant glee. Better choose the former and tell the latter that he’s fired!”

              Like. Norrell. I understand you’re pretty stressed right now. Shit is going down. But that is utterly inexcusable in every single way. As Childermass said, you made the wrong choice, as usual.

              (Big props to Clarke’s writing that you can see something like that, that’s so drastically different to the interpersonal dynamics of the majority of the book, and understand exactly how Lascelles’ gaslighting and manipulation/Norrell’s fear and mistrust/Childermass’ stubbornness led to such a dramatic situation.)

    11. Stephanie*

      -Walter White
      -All the Mad Men bosses
      -Saul Goodman
      -Elizabeth Jennings toward the end of the Americans (she was hardcore)

      1. Lamplighter*

        Not so much Elizabeth Jennings – she was totally mission driven. The bad boss there was Claudia.

    16. Whyyy*

      Maybe not as popular but Charles Brooks from Younger is one of the worst bosses I’ve ever seen on TV.

    17. Krickets*

      Here’s who all I can think of!

      -Cyrus from Scandal
      -Sometimes Louis Litt from Suits
      -Linda from MCC and Fig on OITNB
      -Lisa Vanderpump on RHOBH; no boundaries, biased, and bad judgment calls

      And the entire show Suits is about bad moments of management haha. But it’s a GREAT show.

    19. seeveeargh*

      Will Gardner and basically all of the managing partners at Lockhardt-Gardner from the Good Wife. That law firm has got to be one of the worst places to work ever. Will belittles low-level employees and has a sexual relationship with an employee who he also favours and promotes (also has sex in his office with other non-employees which is also… questionable, especially given the glass walls).

      I recently rewatched the entire series, which I love, but oh my goodness, Lockhardt-Gardner has got to be one of the most toxic, dysfunctional workplaces ever televised. Although from what I’ve read on this website, this seems to be pretty common in law.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Awww, I loved Will’s unethical ass, lol. I stopped watching the show after they killed him off. But yes, both he and Diane were bad bosses, him moreso than her though for all the reasons you listed (Cary should have been given the one associate spot instead of Alicia if Will had been hiring on merit).

        1. seeveeargh*

          Oh, to be clear, I adore Will and his boundary-busting butt. The show definitely suffered from his absence.

          It wasn’t until this second time around watching the series (post- becoming a regular AAM reader) that I realized what a banana crackers boss he is, though!

    21. juliebulie*

      – Santa Claus (in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer) – he was a real dick to Rudolph before finding out how his “nonconformity” could be useful

      – Louis DePalma (Taxi)

      1. Jellyfish*

        That’s a good one I wouldn’t have thought of! Santa is a jerk to the elves through the whole thing too.

    22. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Josh on the West Wing is not a fantastic boss. He keeps Donna from progressing to a better career path that she’s totally capable of achieving, all because he doesn’t want to have to break in a new assistant.

      2. Spool of Lies*

        Oh, good one! Pretty much anyone in a position of power on an Aaron Sorkin show = bad boss.

    23. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Major Frank Burns, M*A*S*H 4077.
      People were always so glad when the colonel got back…

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Oh and specifics… he belittled subordinates, he carried on a torrid affair against the rules and wouldn’t accept it when she broke it off, he created rules & make-work in the mistaken idea that it was ‘military discipline’, and he taunted coworkers in ways that he couldn’t handle when he stepped in the same mistske.
        (“I can go in, I can go out.” When first Hawkeye then Frank were confined to quarters.)

    25. Syfygeek*

      I’ve read all the replies, and can’t believe no one suggested Annalise Keating from How to Get Away with Murder. Treats her students/interns (whatever they are) like crap, expects them to show up whenever she says, talks about them to others, yells, threatens, and expects them to clean up her messes. Treats her regular employees even worse.

  23. Fortitude Jones*

    I’ve been in my new job three months now, and, so far, it’s been fantastic. I work from home full-time and have the flexibility to work the hours I want, which has been a godsend – I have various medical issues that sometimes cause bathroom-related problems, so being able to be in my own home to handle these things has taken the stress and embarrassment out of the situation.

    Then last week, my grandboss told me I’m receiving a bonus on next week’s paycheck at 101%, which he said is not a real percentage, but my bonus base was prorated by 50% since I started with the company midway through their last quarter – the extra one percent was his way of trying to get me as much of the bonus I lost out on due to the proration as possible. This was very thoughtful of him and timely – I really needed that extra money in my paycheck.

    Finally, grandboss let me know yesterday that the sales guy I was complaining about this week on the letter about how to provide feedback was taken to task by one of our high level executives for not following the directives I gave him regarding our new writing standards for proposals (grandboss, along with several other people, was on the call where this grilling took place so that’s how he knows) – grandboss told me because he wanted me to know that my training initiatives for proposal writing are being taken seriously by the C-suite and when sales people don’t follow the new protocols, C-suite will have my back.

    I really appreciated knowing this since the only way you can affect real, positive change in a company our size is if it’s supported by those at the very top. Plus, this particular sales person is arrogant and thought he knew better than I did about what the C-suite wanted to see in his proposal, so, hopefully, being knocked down a peg or two will humble him going forward and he’ll be more willing to put in the time and effort required to draft a well-written and persuasive document.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Congratulations! That sounds pretty awesome.

      I also just started WFH full-time, and while I don’t have significant medical issues, being able to use my own bathroom at any time and for any purpose is one of the underrated perks. :)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yes, it is, lol. Also being able to cook actual meals if I want instead of relying on take out every day, being home to accept deliveries, and being able to throw a load or two of laundry in the machine while working keeps my weekends free and clear to do fun stuff instead of meal planning/prepping for the week and cleaning. I spend maybe two hours tops on the weekends now doing this stuff – I’m so much more relaxed when Monday rolls around.

        1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

          The perk of being able to do laundry during the day cannot be overstated. I have a family of four humans (one of whom is a messy toddler) and three cats (two of whom like to pee and/or throw up on things) and on weeks when I can’t do laundry at home during the day as well as in the evenings and overnight*, I have to pay a boatload for a wash-and-fold service that won’t saturate clothes with perfumes I’m allergic to. Plus getting up periodically to check whether things are dry, switch the load around, etc. makes a nice quick break and keeps me from falling asleep over my laptop.

          * I have a combo washer/dryer with a timer function. Put dirty things in at bedtime, set the cycle and timer, wake up to clean dry things. Bliss.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I have a combo machine too! It truly is a godsend, though it was a little tough to get used to after using commercial machines for the last seven years (I live in an apartment).

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        You’re welcome! I hope I can continue to post positive work updates each week for the remainder of my time at this company (however long that may be, and I hope it’s long)!

  24. Another Manic Monday*

    I started to apply for a new government job last month. I have so far had four interviews with different agencies and three of them are currently checking my references.

    I’m currently working at a GS-8 level employee despite technically being overqualified for the position. I accepted my current job a few months after leaving the military and while struggling with clinical depression. I was grateful toward my agency because they took a chance on me when nobody else would, so I ended up having a strong sense of loyalty towards the people in my office.

    I’m a high performer at the office and often called on to help my coworkers out with their backlog. While I like to help people out whenever I can, it has become too much as the workload is crushing and we are severely understaffed. It would nice to be able to take a short break once in a while without having to do other people’s work.

    Last year, the agency started a restructuring that was supposed to provided better promotion path for the staff. Unfortunately their budget crashed which resulted in a hiring freeze and nobody have been promoted for over a year now. They have now restarted the restructuring process and once again making promises about future promotions to the staff.

    I had been patient during the whole ordeal. I accepted the fact that I would have to wait for a promotion due to the budget crisis and also I loved my job and my coworkers. My thankfulness of even having a job and strong sense of loyalty made me put up with a lot more than I probably should have.

    About two months ago, I discovered how my coworkers was being paid for the same work as I do. I realized that I was paid several thousands less despite outperforming them in every category. I finally woke up to reality about my situation and came to the conclusion that I was (1) overqualified and underpaid, and (2) overworked and underappreciated.

    I updated my resume and started for higher paying positions elsewhere. I did find out that my experience and skill set made me a very attractive candidate for almost every position that I have applied for. I know realize that I have been selling myself short for many years and I’m actually really good at work I do.

    Imposter syndrome, no more.

    1. Catherine de Medici*

      Good for you! I’m also a fed (GS-12). The career ladder at my agency basically stops at 12, so I feel your pain. I’ve been applying for 13’s but there are so few open at my own agency, where I would like to stay. I had an offer last week but it was with an office that had clamped down allowing telework and flex-time despite our agency being very pro-flexibility. It was so hard to turn it down, knowing it might be a while before I get another offer but I value the incredible flexibility my current boss gives too much to give it up at this point. My current boss/office is so perfect, especially compared to some of the horror stories here, that it isn’t worth the slight pay raise to leave for a job that isn’t just right.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, I would never leave a pretty good job for another job that didn’t at least match what I already had. Match or exceed is my threshold for jumping ship.

      2. Another Manic Monday*

        Thanks. I kind of had an awakening two months ago and realized that my agency was holding me back in my career progression. I also realized that my skill set and work experience exceeded the ones of our five supervisors (except for our GS-14 office manager). I might be one of the newest faces in the office, but I worked for almost 20 years in the exact same field while I was in the military. I basically have the specialized experienced equivalent to a GS-12 supervisory position. I really should be in a GS-13 position now instead of just a GS-8, but I had too much self-doubt when I was looking for job after leaving the military.

        I would be willing to stay in my current office, but they would have to offer me something that beat whatever offer I will get from the agencies that I have recently interviewed for (GS-11/12/13). Simply matching the grade offer will not be good enough. They will have to offer a grade higher.

  25. Etiquette about Returning to Office?*

    My work does not technically offer any work from home, but I do a fair amount of offsite meetings. What is everybody’s personal rule about returning to the office (or heading into the office) if the offsite meeting is less than a full workday? If a meeting starts before 10:30 AM – maybe 11 depending on the location – I rarely commute the 30 minutes into the office just to turn around and leave again. Likewise, if the meeting ends at 3PM or later, I rarely head back into the office. I try to spend some time on email during the evening instead. I feel like this is a job perk – not every day is going to be the full 8 hours, but other days may be longer.

    But TBH sometimes I feel a little weird about it, like I’m slacking off. It doesn’t help that my home and the office are at extreme opposite ends of the city, with the meetings being scattered across town, meaning there’s not necessarily one set rule.

    1. Etiquette about Returning to Office?*

      For example, occasionally my extremely conscientious employee joins me. If a meeting ends at 3, he may go back to the office, arrive at 3:30, work for an hour and a half, then commute 45 minutes home. To me, the amount of transportation time isn’t worth that 1.5 hours of in-office work. I’d rather go home and spend an hour or two on email that evening.

      1. Nikara*

        Are you exempt? As someone who isn’t, I’d definitely come back to the office for that 1.5 hours of work. But that could look very different if you are exempt.

      2. Etiquette about Returning to Office?*

        Good point all, yes I should have said I am exempt so my understanding is this is fine to do *legally,* I’m just curious how reasonable people make the decision practically (and it sounds like this may vary by office culture).

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      I set my benchmarks more or less the same as yours, but it does depend on location and length of commute. My current company is much more butts-in-seats than my previous one, so it’s been hard for me to judge what’s acceptable, but generally I feel like if I’m going to be in the office for less than an hour, it’s definitely not worth it for me to go in.

      1. Etiquette about Returning to Office?*

        Less than an hour is probably a good rule. I should perhaps adopt that. It’s just so often that meetings end at 3 around here, meaning I would be heading into the office a lot more frequently than I currently do!

        1. Jaydee*

          Would you be able to go in to work a little early those days to kind of make up the difference on the front end? Like if you usually work 9-5, go in at 8 so that your day would “officially” end at 4.

        2. TechWorker*

          If this were me I’d probably go home but work the same length day, so that you’re just shifting when you commute? Can’t really see anyone would complain about that. (It’s pretty common at my office to do this for other reasons, eg leave at 4.30 cos you have to be at a 5o clock appointment, then wfh a bit in the evening to make it up)

    3. Lisa B*

      Assuming you are exempt for this answer- You could consider if the amount of time you’d be in the office is less than the time it would take you to get there, stay put and work off e-mail. My general rule is that if I’d be in the office for less than an hour before or after the meeting, I don’t go in. But most of my work and meetings are in the same part of town. But ask a colleague how they do it because some offices are funny about this. You could also run it by your boss in a conversation to hear their reaction: “The meeting starts at 10:30 so I’ll work remote in the morning and just meet you there.” If nobody has said anything or given you stink-eye vibes so far it’s probably fine. Again, assuming you’re exempt and pull enough productivity that nobody is thinking “Bout time, slacker.”

    4. Anonygrouse*

      I have a very similar situation (and am salaried exempt) in my current role and had to work a bit to get over my flexible schedule guilt! In addition to acknowledging that I put in time outside of normal hours just as regularly, I framed this flexibility as a perk compensating for the stress of the additional commuting time that off-sites require. I get good reviews and the flexibility is part of what keeps me happy in my role, so my employer also benefits.

      1. Etiquette about Returning to Office?*

        Yeah my current practice is to do what I want (which is NOT making myself miserable commuting all over town just for butts-in-seats cred) and assume my boss will let me know if it’s not acceptable. Technically I am flouting our no-work-from-home rule by doing this so who knows, I may get called out one day for it, but I think I can live with that risk – for the same reasons you state. Sometimes the meeting is super early or super inconvenient to get to, or goes into the evening, and I take on all the stress of getting to those on time without expecting extra compensation … so it all comes out in the wash, hopefully?

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Something a marketing manager I respect has been known to do is go to a public access WiFi spot near the customer site and log on to the VPN from there, for an hour or two of work before the mtg. That way they’re guaranteed to have no travel issues delay the meeting…and they can extend their day without extra driving.
          Of course it doesn’t address the buttstock in seat issue, but you can get an online presence & attend Skype meetings.

    5. Gumby*

      Traffic gets horrible here starting at 3 so unless work is in the same direction as home, I’d just go straight home if any off-site ended around that time. If work was between my starting point and home, then I would go back to the office. Context: I am exempt and could WFH or flex time or whatever as long as my work gets done (as in I regularly work 10:30 – 7:30 as a traffic-minimization strategy).

    6. GooseyLucy*

      Has it crossed your mind that maybe your employee feels that they have to go back to the office? If they also have work they could do from home (and presuming you have the authority to do so), they would probably be delighted if you suggested that it might be a more efficient use of their time to go home instead.

      For you, I would agree that looking at how other colleagues deal with this or casually mentioning it to your boss as suggested and gauging their reaction is a the way to go.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        This is a great point! Model reasonable behaiour for them so they don’t feel awkward!

    7. Stephanie*

      I’m exempt and in a department that can travel frequently. If you’re slated to get back after 2 pm, most people just go home and monitor email.

    8. Akcipitrokulo*

      I wouldn’t expect to see anyone who had an offsite meeting starting/ending 2 hours within start/end time to go from or come back to office unless it affected their wages.

      It’s perfectly reasonable to head home and do work there if practical.

    9. cheese please*

      To feel less like “slacking” it may be worth to find a local coffee shop / library where you can email etc before or after meetings so it’s not “going home early”

    10. Zephy*

      As long as you’re reachable by email/phone/text, I think you’re fine; it really doesn’t make a lot of sense to drive all over freaking Creation just to make an appearance at the office.

    11. Quinalla*

      I’m exempt too. It depends where the meeting is, if I have to basically drive past the office to go home, I’ll go back to the office if I’ll get back by 4pm or go to the office if I’ll be leaving for a meeting 9am or after. If the meeting is close or more on the way to home, yeah 2:30-3 or 10-10:30 is usually where I just work from home after/before. However, we are 100% allowed to work from home when it makes sense like this, so its not a big deal at all for me. And yes, I do model it as I’m one of the two managers in our regional office and it is important for others to see me doing it so they know it is really ok.

      You may want to clarify it with your boss if you are worried, but I doubt they are worried about it unless you aren’t getting work done or are unreachable.

    12. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      My office is super close to where I live, so it’s not a long commute for me to jump in and get some work done before an off-site or an appointment. I will almost always do it if I can get an hour or more of work done. But my boss also wouldn’t bat an eye if I didn’t.

    13. Librarian of SHIELD*

      My general rule is that if I don’t have at least an hour to get work done by the time I get back to the office, it’s not worth it.

  26. Sick But Not That Sick*

    I have worked for my c-suite boss for over a decade, and I have a chronic health condition. It’s invisible and generally manageable, so it’s rare for me to take more than one sick day per year. I have always been able to schedule medical appointments outside my working hours and I am outside the US so the cost to the company of medical cover isn’t an issue. Nobody in my company knows that I have this condition.

    I’m going into a flare-up so I have asked to use our current slow season (and my banked time in lieu) to work light and from home. This is comfortably within company norms as workflow volume comes in peaks and troughs, and my boss has so far been happy to authorise it. I report directly to him.

    I’m under no contractual nor statutory legal obligation to disclose the nature of my condition nor even its existence. However, I’m feeling increasingly weird about concealing it, given that it could affect my ability to work. He’s a good boss and it’s a good company with supportive policies (I was on full pay throughout maternity leave, for example) so I should have no fear of discrimination or retaliation or job insecurity as a result. I just don’t want to.

    What do you think, commentariat? Is it morally ok to keep the information to myself until and unless I might actually need special accommodations at work?

    1. Purt's Peas*

      It is morally ok. People have all sorts of unconscious biases that can rear up anytime, and you just don’t want to trigger one unless you really have to. I believe you that your boss is wonderful, but I also believe that plenty of wonderful people have revealed some non-wonderful opinions when it becomes relevant.

      1. Sick But Not That Sick*

        plenty of wonderful people have revealed some non-wonderful opinions when it becomes relevant

        That is very useful perspective, thank you.

        1. valentine*

          I should have no fear of discrimination or retaliation or job insecurity as a result.
          You can’t know until it’s too late, especially if your boss or anyone higher up turns out to be someone who panics or you have a colleague who catastrophizes in your boss’ ear. I prefer to avoid than to dial back.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Remember that when you just goes to your boss, you are also disclosing to their future replacement down the line.
          I lean towards keeping the information private unless/until you need the accommodation.

    2. SamSoo*

      My only thought is that if it’s something for which you might qualify for FMLA (is there an equivalent to that where you are?), then it’s good to have the FMLA in place before it is needed. That way you are protected. I have a mostly unseeable health issue that has been well controlled for a long time. But if it rears its ugly self I need to know (even though I trust my boss to do right by me) that it won’t be an issue.

      1. Sick But Not That Sick*

        I had to Google FMLA and the good news is that I’m significantly more covered than that anyway (our statutory provision is better than that, and I get better than statutory).

        A good consideration, though, thanks.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      Yup – you get to decide whether to come out about your illness, and there’s no moral or ethical reason you should. You being ill is only their concern once, or if, your work falls off or, as you said, you need special accommodations.

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      Entirely up to you – no ethical or moral obligations to disclose anything you don’t want to.

      Having said that, it may be in your interests to mention it – your boss may be willing to add flexibility or make non-formal adjustments to make things easier – but that’s again, absolutely up to you.

    5. Joielle*

      Totally ok to wait until you need special accommodations! At that point, you can explain it as “a condition I’ve had for many years that usually doesn’t cause much disruption but has recently been flaring up much worse than usual.” In my opinion, no reason to risk any discrimination (even if unlikely) unless necessary.

    6. Quinalla*

      If you do decide to disclose, keep in mind that you can choose your level of disclosure. You can just say “medical issue” and that’s fine. You can get a little more specific. I’ve personally been making an effort to not overshare on this stuff at work to set a good example and to set people up for success. If I just say “medical appointment” or “personal appointment”, that’s more than enough info for my boss/coworkers. Something to think about!

  27. Moo*

    Any safety professionals here? What courses or certifications would you recommend for someone who doesn’t have an actual background in safety but works in the field and has picked up a lot of info over the last few years? I am currently working in a safety-related job as an admin, so I don’t have any science degrees or a safety background, but in reading and evaluating safety programs against certain criteria, asking questions of my colleagues, and reading inspection reports, I’ve already learned quite a bit. I’d like to maybe try for some additional knowledge or certifications to help in my job. I’ve contacted a few local community colleges but they don’t seem to offer what I might need. My director suggested chemistry and some other science-related courses as a place to start, but is there anything else I should be thinking about?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Safety is a tough one to get into as a general thing, because as far as I can tell everywhere wants you to have experience in their particular industry. A machine shop who hires a safety person usually wants someone with experience machining things, so they can do both and know about both. A trucking company wants someone with experience driving semis. Etc. So it kind of depends on what field you want to work safety in. Then go look and see what sort of requirements companies in that field have.

      I’m a safety manager at a manufacturer, and it’s basically impossible for me to find a job anywhere else even though I have multiple certifications and I’m a registered safety program auditor with the government.

      1. Moo*

        I’m in a general safety position, so it’s nothing specialized (I work with and review programs and reports from companies that run the gamut from offices to trucking companies to manufacturers to schools to construction), and I’m not looking to change jobs (but would love a promotion here!). Just hoping to get a little more familiar with safety regulations and best practices, etc. so that maybe I could work toward a CSP or something similar. If that makes sense.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Not sure what country you work in, but if you have anything like an auditor accreditation program, I would recommend it as a good place to start to really, really know the regulations.

          There are usually safety companies that offer courses too. I know we all have to start taking the CSO, or Common Safety Orientation, from a company that just offers that kind of thing. I have probably 6 or 7 such safety certificates.

            1. Construction Safety*

              OSHA had regional OTI’s associated with major universities. Georgia Tech is my local one. They offer a wide variety of safety related curricula. Georgia Southern offers an on-line degree in safety with credit for other college courses & OSHA training taken. Click Safety offer a lot of on-line courses. Consider becoming a certified First Aid/CPR instructor thru AHA or the Red Cross.

    2. J. F. Scientist*

      It depends what kind of safety- large equipment/ general worker protection? Fire prevention? Chemical safety? Radiation safety? There are various OSHA workplace and chemical certifications that enable one to teach classes on various kinds of safety; if I were you I’d try to get in touch with chemical safety officers (or fire safety officers, or whatever the specialty is at similar organizations and ask them about their training/ what they’d recommend.

      (My dad is now retired but worked as a chemical/fire safety director at plants and chemical companies for 30 years, and then as a consultant, inspector, and trainer. He was also a professional firefighter and got a fire science degree from University of Maryland back in the day, which was what ‘qualified’ him. I’m a biochemist and we have a lot of chemical safety needs. You do need a firm foundation in chemistry for the fire/chemistry types of certifications.)

    3. IH Kate*

      There’s some online safety programs, though your mileage may vary. I think it depends too on what type of safety you’d like to do – I’m an industrial hygienist in a university setting, and I’ve found math, chemistry, biology, etc. to be pretty helpful, but more specific “safety” people might get more mileage out of physics, math, etc.

      In terms of certifications, I’d aim for the ASP first, and maybe get membership in ASSP or AIHA – they have free resources, webinars, etc. that might be interesting/useful. I know AIHA has some of their annual conference available as webinar sessions online, and you can still get credit for them, which might be useful towards your certifications. Otherwise, online ASP/CSP prep would also give you a pretty broad overview. You can also join your local ASSP/AIHA sections if you have them – they’re useful for networking, education, and just general question asking. AIHA also has an active online forum – I’m not sure about ASSP, as I’m not currently a member.

      I agree with Amber Rose that it can be a little hard to break into, especially in really specific sectors. I would never get hired (and would do horrible at) a trucking company or machining company, but I do well in my diversified environment with lots of other safety professionals to rely on – our department is about 50 people. I’d just keep that in mind as well. I know quite a few safety professionals who started out working for insurance companies or as trainers, which is broad scope and diverse, which might help you get a leg up getting hired somewhere else.

      1. IH Kate*

        Dropping some links to some online coursework/class resources here – I know it’ll get stuck in moderation for a bit. Hope something helps!

        OSHA Training Institutes – regional courses on OSHA information (OSHA 40 hour, HAZWOPER, etc.): https://www.osha.gov/dte/edcenters/index.html

        NIOSH also has training centers: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/oep/ercportfolio.html

        Online continuing education courses from the Midwest training center: https://learning.umn.edu/public/category/programStream.do?method=load&selectedProgramAreaId=18870&selectedProgramStreamId=18876

        FEMA Emergency Management independent study courses: https://training.fema.gov/is/

        Johns Hopkins opencourseware Intro to Industrial Hygiene: http://ocw.jhsph.edu/index.cfm/go/viewCourse/course/PrinciplesIndustrialHygiene/coursePage/index/

      2. Moo*

        Thank you! The ASP sounds familiar, I think someone may have mentioned that to me before, so I’ll definitely look into that and the other ones too!

  28. bluegrass*

    I have one more week until my last day at this job! Then I’ll be moving two hours away, into an apartment with my partner, adopting a cat, and starting a new remote job. So excited! Interested to see how the transition to remote work goes.

    1. LessNosy*

      Congratulations!! I recently transitioned into remote work myself. I read a lot of blogs and articles with tips on making the transition easier – my biggest helps have been 1) having a specific space where I do my work and 2) getting out of the house at least once a day. Good luck, you’ll be great! PS Enjoy your kitty – they are the purrrfect remote coworkers. I have 4 myself :)

      2. Windchime*

        Interesting! I interviewed for a fully-remote position this week. I am very conflicted about it; the idea of no commute sounds like heaven but I am also a little worried about becoming house-bound as I’m already a bit of an introvert. It seems like more and more commenters are becoming remote workers.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      I, too, recently transitioned to a fully remote position, and I agree about getting out of the house. I sometimes go out for lunch or go to Starbucks late in the afternoon – I also go run errands or just do a lap or two around the block.

      Good luck with all of your new changes! It sounds like a very exciting time for you.

      1. bluegrass*

        I’m looking forward to moving in with my partner — we’ve only ever done long distance, for 2.5 years — but yeah, the cat has really been on the forefront of my mind!

  29. Where do we go from here?*

    Trying to have a semblance of anonymity…

    I’m not looking right now, but I want to know more.

    Would it be weird to go from management to a regular, senior position at another company?

    What would I say to recruiters? Right now I’m working as a manager in the accounting department of my company (a tax firm). This was my first career job after graduating college.

    I started at my current company doing tax prep, payroll, and bookkeeping. I’ve been promoted 3 times in the 4.5 years here.

    I like being a manager and I would like to do that again…BUT I also wouldn’t mind doing the actual work again and just learning as much as I can.

    I haven’t actively searched but my instinct is that I have too little experience to be a manager at another company, since I was promoted in June.

    A wrench is that I don’t have an accounting degree. I minored in it, but 99% of my education has come from my job and I have a professional license. Not sure how that will prohibit me.

    My biggest concern is taking a pay cut and health benefits. I make 70k at my current position. $150 is deducted from my paycheck every 2 weeks for health insurance (medical, dental, vision). I pay $50 copy and $25-30 for medicines every 6-8 weeks. How do I know if this is good, and how does all this fit in?

    1. Lisa B*

      Definitely not strange to go from management to non-management, but you should expect them to ask you about it during an interview. There’s nothing wrong with saying that you were really good at your job and the promotion seemed natural, but you realized that you preferred the more “in the weeds” work.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      There’s nothing wrong with saying that while you enjoyed managing, you’ve realized you would rather be an individual contributor.

      Plenty of people go that route, and especially if you’re looking at a senior position, it might not even really be seen as a downgrade.

    3. boredatwork*

      First, typically if you go to a larger firm, your “manager” title would translate back down to more of a senior role. Just based on the complexity of the clients involved. Typically bigger firms can pay more money, so it may not equate to a pay decrease.

      Second, the education issue is going to depend largely on the firm, and if they care. Some will require a masters and a CPA, some will be happy with what you have now. A recruiter can rule out education issues before you interview.

      Third, as for benefits, you can request a copy of the firm’s policy before accepting your offer. You’ll have to compare your current policy to the new policy.

      1. Crimeandwine*

        Exactly this. I’m not in finance, but I was a department manager at a small contract research organization and had similar movement to the OP. I recently accepted a senior titled role as an individual contributor at a one of the top 3 CROs, and I received a 42.5% increase in salary.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      Going from mgt to individual contributor role is seriously NBD in the accounting/finance world. When the subject comes up simply say “I enjoyed my time as a manager but really feel my technical skills area great match for this position and I did miss digging into the data and working through the problems myself”.

      As for the education…as long as you have a degree you should be fine with around 5 years experience in accounting. The professional license should also help there.

    5. Hillary*

      Another framing you can use is to go after an individual contributor position at a larger organization. You have a good idea of how things work at your small company and want to (if it’s true) learn about whatever function in a larger organization.

      I’ve done both and they’re very different. At my last job dealing with my category’s expenses meant going upstairs and talking to one or two people. At this job it’s 30+ people on four continents that all have to agree with any changes.

    6. ErinFromAccounting*

      What area are you in? I actually think 70k is quite low for an accounting manager with a CPA/CMA/etc. Senior accountants in my area (SoCal) make more like 80-90k, depending on the company.

  30. Amber Rose*

    Guys! A little girl called my work yesterday to ask if our refrigerator was running!
    It makes my heart happy that kids still play dumb prank calls.

  31. AE*

    I need some thoughts outside of my own head.

    Our department basically imploded last year. While details are probably unnecessary, suffice it to say that our manager is a problem in ways that are unlikely to improve. The company is aware, and HR was involved this spring. This manager is on an improvement plan. However, the way in which our HR dept handled this issue was so poor (ex. shared confidential conversations about our boss *with* our boss) that we lost several very valuable staff members. The department responded to the HR investigation in three ways: those who were honest about their concerns, those who were too afraid to be honest, and those who see an opportunity to get in with this manager.

    With no resolution, we’re moving forward, trying to get our jobs done and maintaining a semblance of a professional relationship with this manager. Yet one staff member seems oblivious to the ongoing problems. The group received an email last night with the demand that we all pitch in to organize a surprise birthday party for this boss. She has already contacted the boss’ spouse to get ideas on just what the boss likes the best so as to make this a “great party.”

    Dear readers, I can maintain professional relationships. This team needs my specialized skills more than ever and I’m happy to provide them. But I am not about to get involved in this birthday scheme. Our department is not happy, not unified, and not very functional. A birthday party would be awkward at best, and suggest to HR that the problems no longer exist at worst. It is worth noting that we have never had birthday parties for anyone in our department previously, manager or subordinate.

    What to do? My current instinct is to ignore the email.

    1. fposte*

      I agree with your instinct. You don’t have to fix this situation, and you don’t have to get involved with it.

    2. INeedANap*

      Yeah, I would just ignore the email. If the staff member pushes, I’d say something like: “No thanks! I’m pretty focused on work right now.”

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      In the Deleted Items folder that email would go, lol. I wouldn’t even bother responding.

  32. Brownie*

    My great-grandboss level of management is hopping on the Scrum train because they believe it will resolve a perceived lack of responsiveness to customers regarding software and applications. This is fine for developers because Scrum was intended for them, but my whole department is infrastructure and operations, not development! (Infrastructure and OPs in this context is IT networking, database administration, servers, help desk, and so on.) We don’t fit into the framework the managers were taught by the high-priced consultants who were brought in, but that doesn’t seem to matter to management who’s trying to shoehorn us into product teams and sprints.

    So far I’ve managed to be very professional about my objections while pointing out that responsiveness could easily be increased by adding more people to operations to remove the bottlenecks caused by not having enough people for the workload, but nope, it looks like it’s going to be Scrum for everyone. Anyone out there in IT operations/infrastructure ever successfully fought back against management who tried to implement Scrum for them?

    1. Earthwalker*

      IIRC Agile kanban can be effective for prioritizing and tracking non-project, ongoing maintenance work. Maybe you can push efforts in that direction?

      1. Brownie*

        I’m trying, but so much of what several of the teams do is quick fixes that would take more time to do a kanban entry in the proposed software than the ticket actually took to resolve, so there’s a lot of pushback from non-management as it would only slow the response times down further. If we had more people I’d love to start doing kanban so we know what all has been worked on and can report to management all of the “we did this” stats, but right now we’re so short on people that any extra logging is time that could be spent on getting rid of the backlog of work.

        I’m starting to wonder if this isn’t a case where we’ll have to document how much time tasks take now without Scrum/kanban and then later when the complaints about slowness increase we’d have proof that the way management wants us to go isn’t working. Urgh, that rubs me the wrong way though since it basically means letting a process which I know will have a negative effect on customers and our reputation go into practice just to prove a point.

      2. techRando*

        Ops around me also uses a scrum/kanban mix. There’s some planning for the sprint ahead (what tasks are highest priority, what clients will be onboarded, etc) and then a lot of handling of things as they come in.

        I think a lot of aspects can be helpful- having specific statuses for all complaint tickets to be in, a board with visibility to all of those, etc. Something where like “under investigation”, “being fixed now (by your team)”, “waiting on developer patch”.

        My recommendation is definitely to take whatever feels like it works for you. A good retrospective set up should include moments to question the process and come up with modifications.

      3. Phoebe2*

        This exactly. Sounds like Kanban to me. Sometimes people think agile and scrum are the same. But they’re not.
        Suggest kanban.

    2. VonSchmidt*

      The kanban portion of scrum may be what your manager is looking at. Your area may be ripe for outsourcing standardized tasks. Rather than push back on scrum (which is just a visual way to view work to be done) I would embrace it to see what items are better outsourced versus adding staff .

      1. Brownie*

        What the managers are pushing as scrum is actually making ops have scrum meetings for the ops team as well as go to scrum meetings for the developer projects that are supported by ops. They’re also trying to make ops work in sprints and focus only on what’s defined for that sprint. But ops has very few long term projects which could benefit from that – the workload is mainly customer ticket based, not project based – and in the scrum training everyone in the department had the consultants specifically called out ops as not something that scrum works for. It’s left me confused and frustrated as I’m all for kanban, but that’s not what’s being pushed.

        1. techRando*

          I don’t know about your set up, but having ops/dev people scrum together can be really good for relationships between the groups and for prioritization.

          I’m on the dev side of a team set up like that, and everything has gotten incredibly better about our setup since we started working with ops regularly. They also find themselves less frustrated by problems we cause because they can feel pretty comfortable pinging us with a stacktrace like “does this look like something we can fix?” and we can usually answer pretty quickly a yes/no. We also do a good amount of work automating their stuff which reduces their backlog of repetitive tasks they need to slog through, as well as changing our metrics/reporting/tooling based on what makes their jobs easier.

          Now, the “focus only on what was set out for that sprint” is a problem in this scenario, definitely. And it’s not something I’ve really seen play out so well in ops teams before.

    3. ArtK*

      That’s a misunderstanding of Scrum. It comes from Lean manufacturing and has been applied successfully to many situations outside of software. It’s a great framework for a lot of things. Lots of IT teams use it successfully. It’s especially good for DevOps organizations.

    5. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      I recommend reading The Phoenix Project, which is a novel (a quick read) about DevOps. While it is hard to shoehorn IT Ops/Infrastructure into traditional Scrum for AppsDev, some of the culture and principles can definitely apply to IT Ops/Infrastructure in several scenario (IT for IT efforts, collaborating when AppsDev needs Infrastructure resources to perform work to make an effort successful, and when Infrastructure needs AppsDev to do things like test new upgrades). Adding more people to improve responsiveness and remove bottlenecks is a bit of a slippery slope solution. Kanban or Scrumban can help alleviate the bottlenecks. The Phoenix Project novel is so good at showcasing this through a fictional journey. Good luck!

    6. 16 Pieces of Flair*

      You have lead times, impact analysis and approvals. Nevermind documentation. That is maybe V-model but ”Scrum” will but its head into a brick wall of compliance. In other words, it will be like teaching pigs to sing. And the consultants will happily take the money. The pigs however will be very annoyed and quit or go ”by the book” and sabotage even the ”nice” dev teams.

      Been there, done that… what people say the bits from Kanban can be introduced, but there will be a rebellion if the pointy haired bosses go agile without understanding their own business processes, namely the deployment and testing.

      Look up the V-model… NATO standard reiterating waterfall.

  33. Still looking*

    I’ve been in my current work for 7 years and seems like I’ve gotten nowhere – skills and pay wise. I’ve started applying since last November, have had interviews but no offers.
    I’ve sent multiple applications, and almost losing hope. This fall, I’ll start aggressively applying again, I really want to get out of here, even considering changing roles. It’s just my skills are very specific, and getting into a general type of role seems really hard… hopefully someone will give me a chance, I’ve got no more motivation coming here.

    1. irene adler*

      Well, Oct is when the new fiscal year starts for many companies. New fiscal year often means = new job postings! So you might get well-prepared for this.

    2. 867-5309*

      Have you spent time reading Alison’s great advice on resumes and cover letters? It can be a slog when you’ve been looking for awhile but spending the time creating good materials will make all the difference. Good luck!

      (What’s your field?)

    3. Peppercat53*

      Persevere and don’t give up! I looked off and on for probably two years before I found the right fit and the right situation. I had multiple interviews and some offers but couldn’t afford to take the pay cut that was involved at the time (tried moving from macro-large brewery to smaller craft breweries). One brewery wouldn’t even negotiate with me. They told me a number and when I called back and left HR a message that I wanted to discuss they never contacted me and months later I got an email saying the role had been filled by someone else. Know your worth and keep putting yourself out there. I finally left my prior employer after 8 years (my first real job out of college) last fall and it was the best thing I’ve ever done for myself (even with a pay cut!- I moved to a lower cost of living state and I’m grateful my husband was supportive both emotionally and that his work could provide for us financially). You can do this!

  34. MOAS*

    I had my evaluation this morning, and I did my first evaluation as a manager (with my manager sitting with me) today. Both went well, and no surprises lol. Also, I feel super silly for being worried about the glassdoor review lol.

  35. JanetSnow*

    I was fired a couple of weeks ago. My manager who fired me is a Facebook friend. Can I unfriend him ?

    6. !*

      Is there a reason why you don’t think you should unfriend him? This is probably the biggest reason why I only keep Facebook to actual friends and family. I use LinkedIn for professional contacts only.

      1. JanetSnow*

        I wasn’t sure if it would seem petty or something. But I think going forward, I will not be adding any coworkers to social media.

        1. 867-5309*

          I took that role a couple years ago. I don’t friend coworkers until after I’m no longer with a company.

        2. Natalie*

          I mean, even if it does, who cares?Someone you don’t see anymore will think you’re petty. Good for him. That and a dollar will buy him whatever you can buy for a dollar these days.

        3. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “I wasn’t sure if it would seem petty or something.”

          Why do you care what your (ex) manager thinks?

        4. Groove Bat*

          It’s my experience that people don’t know when you unfriend them. Your posts just don’t show up in their feed anymore.

      2. Quinalla*

        Agreed, if you are connected on linkedin unless he is being a idiot there (I don’t get it, but some people treat it like it is there personal facebook, so weird to me!), I’d stay connected, but no reason to stay Facebook friends if you don’t want to.

        I don’t use Facebook except to check out other folks, follow a few business/groups and follow a few groups for my kids that people set up on Facebook (clearly just to piss me off :) as I hate Facebook’s interface so much). I make a post once every couple years on my own page, so I do have some work friends on there, but they are people I’m friendly with outside of work.

    7. Art3mis*

      F yes.
      I unfriended someone who interviewed me for an internal position. I didn’t get it, which was fine, but when I asked for feedback she ignored me. I wasn’t that close with her anyway.

    9. ECHM*

      Another option would be to hide him from your news feed and you can set your post to “Friends except [ExBoss].”

    10. 16 Pieces of Flair*

      Ummm… Facebook is for friends, LinkedIn for colleagues. I’ve made Facebook friends with ex-colleagues, but very-very-extrmely few made onto there while we worked together.

      Like now if you were a totally vindictive person, you might dig and screencap something stupid off their feed from 10 years ago and send it to the HR and their boss ”totally anonymous” and get them fired… If I was the boss, I’d unfriended you before I made the call…

  36. Newbie*

    When you start a new job, is it better to be super flexible and accommodating, or establish boundaries right away?

    I take work-life boundaries seriously, and I’m not interested in routinely spending extra hours at the office or working from home in the evenings/on weekends. This has never been a problem, as I don’t work in a field that expects it. But I recently changed jobs and I’m reporting to someone who sees the job as their life. They are happy to spend 12 hours a day working – and that’s fine for them! But I don’t want to get sucked into it.

    They are aware that this is out of the norm and they don’t expect me to do the same, but it’s little things like scheduling a meeting for 4:30 or asking me to jump on a call “for 5 minutes” (which is really 20 minutes) at 4:55. I have a young child and have to make daycare pickup, so I truly don’t have the ability to disregard the time and stay late without notice.

    I could push back and wouldn’t be penalized outright, but I’m still very new and I want to make a good impression. On the other hand, I’m afraid that if I don’t set the boundaries now, it will be much harder to push back when I’m more established at this job. Thoughts?

    1. Jess*

      Hard boundaries where the kid pickup is concerned, for sure. Expect pushback a few times, from your boss and from others — it’s your job to train them that this IS a hard boundary, it’s not their job to make sure that you pick your kid up on time. They don’t know if when you say you have to leave at 5, you Have To Leave At 5:00, or if that means Saying 5 Gets Me Out The Door By My Actual Necessary Leave Time of 5:15, or what… and they will discover that answer by your actions as well as your words.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        All of this. The daycare/child pickup thing is non-negotiable unless you have someone else who can step in for you on those random days where your boss schedules these late meetings. Otherwise, if boss sends you an email or IM saying, “Hey, do you have a few minutes? I’d like to go over something with you,” at 4:55, then you can say, “Unfortunately, I have to pick up my kid by 6, so I’m unable to talk now. Please send me an invite for tomorrow morning and we can discuss it then.” Or if you don’t mind taking calls at home, you can ask to talk once you get your child and are settled in at home. But either way, absolutely set that particular boundary upfront so your manager knows going forward that this can’t be a regular thing with last minute calls/meetings.

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      I am in a very personal-life friendly job right now, so my feelings might be skewed, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have a big picture conversation with your boss where you say: “I want to make sure you know that I have childcare responsibilities that mean I need to leave by X time unless I can plan in advance for an alternative.” And then when they ask to schedule a call or meeting at the end of the day, just say “Since I have a hard stop at X time, would it make sense to schedule this earlier in the day?”

      The only question I have is — if you were in a situation where you were required at the last minute to stay late, how would you handle it? I think if you have the kind of role where there might be last minute things that come up, you might want to include your contingency plan in your conversation with your boss, so that it’s clear that you can handle the urgent situations that might arise. But if your job shouldn’t ever have last minute evening responsibilities, I don’t think you need to include this.

    3. Fibchopkin*

      From my own experience as the primary kid-picker-upper in my family (my partner is still active duty military) I would recommend you set those boundaries NOW! I know how uncomfortable that can be. I’ve been at my current org for just over 3 years, and my grandboss is notorious for the “could you just pop in for a quick phone call?” 5 minutes before quitting time. “Quick” phone calls can often go on for 20 minutes – 1 Hour. The first time it happened, I’d been in my job for a month. I didn’t want to rock the boat, but as the clock crept closer and closer to that 5:30 drop-dead time, I finally just interjected and said “Grandboss, I have to leave right now to pick up the mancub.” The next day, I asked for a few minutes of her time and explained that I would not be able to ever stay past 5PM unless I could plan for that in advance, and I followed that up by saying “Actually I have to leave in XX minutes, is this something we can do tomorrow morning?” every time she tried to call me last minute to ask me to stay after that. Now – there is another to this. To make up for my relative inflexibility with leave time during the school year, I always volunteer to come in early, and for the first year or so, I work a LOT of planned weekend and travel events. (“Planned” being the key word.) Compensating in this way demonstrated my willingness to be a team player and go the extra mile when needed. I’ve been promoted 3 times in 3.5 years, so setting those early boundaries was not a hindrance to my career – but I did need to compensate with those other measures.

    4. lulu*

      Set the limits now. Do it professionally and matter of fact. For instance for the meeting at 4:30 just point out that you need to leave at 5, so would it make sense to reschedule it for earlier the following day.

    5. animaniactoo*

      I think now is the time to do it and to say “Hey, I wanted to raise this with you – I tried being available for the 5 minute call right before leaving for the day, but when we’ve done that it’s gone over 5 minutes by quite a bit and I’ve ended up having to leave later. The same is true for meetings that start at 4:30 – by the time everyone is there and we’re ready to start, it’s running over the planned half an hour. Because this affects my day-care pickup when it happens, can we please make sure not to schedule things for the very end of the day and fit them in earlier so that I’m not running into issues like that?” Bonus points if you can say “I was late 2x last week and I’ll jeopardize the placement if I do it again any time soon.”

    6. Jaydee*

      Set really firm boundaries where you need to (like childcare pickup) but be a little flexible where you can. So, staying late may not be possible, but maybe you can be flexible about your lunch break and eat at 11:30 one day and 1:00 another to accommodate meetings. Maybe you drive to work, so you’re always willing to run random midday errands that a coworker who takes public transit can’t.

    7. wittyrepartee*

      Set an alarm for your end time. Tell everyone about said alarm- that is the “I NEED TO GO GET MY KID ALARM”. When alarm goes off, say “time to get my kid!” and then leave.

      I do this in my personal life- my phone goes off at 11 PM. I don’t always leave at 11 PM, but it’s a signal that it’s late, and I should start making for the door if I need to. It’s now a schtick where me and all my friends hear it and go “It’s 11:oo!” in unison.

  37. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    I’m volunteering with a local sports organization (in addition to my full-time job) to build up my resume for when I make a career change. I’ve mostly been doing email communications, since I work during the week, but plan to go to games on weekends. Does anyone have any other suggestions for how I can offer to help? Thank you!

    1. 867-5309*

      Can you tell us more about the career change you want to make? That will help us provide thoughts on what else it might make sense to do.

      1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

        Transitioning from nonprofit administrative support to executive level administrative support for the front office of a professional team.

  38. Rick Castle*

    I’m close to 5 years in my career as a copywriter, and I know more senior positions and promotions could be in my future. But the more I do this the less I am enjoying being a copywriter. I’m thinking of a career change but I don’t know what I would do or what I can find with my current experience level (bachelor degree, no master, almost 5 years in digital marketing). Any suggestions?
    My budget’s tight, I’m not sure school or a new degree would work for me.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, I was about to say, business development, particularly proposal writing, could be a nice transition that doesn’t require any additional schooling or training.

    2. 867-5309*

      There are a lot of things you could do in digital marketing that would translate: social media strategy, account management, etc.

      But, also look at internal communications. A lot larger companies hire people to do internal newsletters and intranets, which is much more journalism and long-form writing than copywriting. Additionally, it will position to transition your career in that direction.

      1. Rick Castle*

        That is not a path/positions I have heard of before. Thanks for letting me know, that does sound interesting.

    3. lemon*

      Do you want to stick with writing or do you want to move into a new direction?

      If you want to keep writing/working with content: content strategy, UX writer, content marketing, and second the recommendation for internal comms jobs.

      If you want to go out in a new direction: UX design/research? (mostly just suggesting this because it’s digital, and marketing is about crafting stories/journeys, which is good for UX).

      If you’re interested in going to school and learning a new school, but budget is your only constraint, there’s a growing number of tech programs that operate by some form of income-share agreement, meaning you don’t pay upfront but agree to pay a percentage of your income after you find a new job. That could be an option. I know Thinkful works this way, off the top of my head. There’s also programs like Revature, which trains people in tech for free in exchange for a 2-year contract to work with their clients across the country (so requires a lot of travel).

      3. Rick Castle*

        I’m definitely thinking of going in a new direction. Just not sure what. I’ll look into UX research

    4. Hepzibah Pflurge*

      My experience at larger law firms is that they tend to have fairly robust marketing/digital marketing/social media departments. Holding a staff position at a law firm (or any firm that lives and dies by the billable hour) can have downsides, but what gig doesn’t? Pay and perks are usually pretty good too. Good luck!

    5. AliceBD*

      If you like digital marketing but not exclusive copywriting look for a generalist digital marketing job. Or a social media job. I’ve done both, and personally like being a generalist digital marketer better than just doing social media. Currently I don’t have to write anything public-facing other than a few social media posts per week that are pretty easy. I’m going to be writing a lot in my job in the future because we are redoing our website and it all has to be rewritten to be well-written but that is an unusual one-off thing and we would be outsourcing it if I didn’t enjoy it and have the copywriting background. (Still might outsource it depending on the workload.) I don’t even have to write blog posts, just edit them.

  39. Erika22*

    Hi fellow UK readers! Question regarding notice periods as someone not familiar with UK notice periods. My notice period is three months (I didn’t know to question this when I started this job, but it turns out I’m the only person in my department with such a long notice period!) How do you negotiate this down when giving notice? Aside from potentially reflecting poorly on me, is it possible to kind of…strong arm my company in shortening my notice? We’ve just entered a (very) slow period at work which I think will help in negotiating, but if anyone has experience with this advice would be appreciated!

    1. londonedit*

      I don’t think it would reflect poorly on you if you approached it just as you say, as ‘I understand my contracted notice period is three months, but would there be any scope to negotiate on that? As far as I’m aware, my position is the only one in the department with such a long notice period, and I’m confident I can complete my handover in good time, so would there be any way to shorten my notice?’

      Of course they’re well within their rights to say no, as you signed a contract with a three-month notice period, but if they’re reasonable then they might be open to giving you some leeway. Or if you have holiday remaining, you could possibly negotiate taking that as part of your notice period, instead of being paid for it. I don’t think there’s anything you can do to ‘strong-arm’ them, though, and I think that *would* reflect poorly on you. If they say no, you’ll probably just need to accept that and work out your notice.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      It tends to depend on the business – you can request an earlier last day, but contractually they can deny your request. Of course in practice they can’t force you to work, but you might be burning bridges if you refused, and your field will determine how common it is to do so.

      You must be allowed to take or be paid accrued annual leave. If you’ve already taken more than you’ve earned it will need to be recouped one way or another (you would earn another 1.4 weeks in those three months!).

      If you handle sensitive data (e.g. a sales position) then they might not want you to work your notice, in which case we are in “gardening leave” territory and they may be interested in saving themselves money by agreeing an earlier finish date.

      However, I have known people to get stuck with employers who spitefully refuse to release them early. In my own experience, they wanted every last day they could claim despite their refusal to arrange a successor or any handover, so for a few weeks I was being paid by NewJob for work and also by OldJob for accrued leave at the same time (ka-ching!).

      Ultimately you can leave whenever you want, but it may lead to contractual legal headaches and future professional difficulties. However, it’s very common to have that kind of notice period in certain fields, including mine, so it’s unlikely you would miss out on a new position because you couldn’t start sooner.

    3. Akcipitrokulo*

      I thought my 2 month was long!

      They might. But don’t worry too much if they don’t and you’re looking for another job; most companies will wait for the right person at the level you’re probably at to have a 3-month notice period!

      If you’re in a union, call and ask! They will chat through options with you. (If you’re not… it’s definitely worth it… tuc website has a good tool to find out which one would suit you, and you don’t need to tell your company you’ve joined if you don’t want to.)

      TBH…. although legally they can technically sue you for breach of contract… it’s rare and not worth their while… and they probay know that. So if you go in with a positive thing you can offer in exchange, particularly if it’s taking account of business needs like documentation or taking on knowledge transfer before you go or pointing out how (if relevant) it would make sense for you to leave during slower period/before you start on new projects that can always help.

      Also they might not have noticed either if it’s the only one like that?

    4. Bagpuss*

      Start by asking!
      A shorter period saves them money, so it may be attractive to them if you are in a quiet period.
      It may also help if you can sell it to them – the money saving is a part of that, but setting out what you can do before leaving to ease the transition and make sure that your colleagues aren’t overwhelmed will help.
      3 months is not necessarily something you should have known to negotiate when you joined- in some fields it’s very normal – so don’t assume, moving forward, that it’s something to avoid or negotiate out of in every role.

    5. Weegie*

      I negotiated an earlier departure from two previous jobs where I had three-month notice periods. Neither time was it a problem. Just approach your manager and ask if they’re open to you leaving sooner than 3 months. On both occasions I got it down to 6 weeks, which both sides were happy with. The second time I did this I told my line manager I had estimated that I would have all necessary tasks and loose ends wrapped up by x date, and handover materials prepared for my successor. In your case, part of your request could be to note that as you are entering a slow period, that might be a convenient exit time for both you and the company.

    6. hazy days*

      We would expect senior staff to have a 3 month notice period and plan accordingly – for top positions, we’re working on a 6 month hiring cycle at minimum.

    7. 16 Pieces of Flair*

      Yep, there are the minimum ones (usually for the employer), but contractually they can be longer. The fine print would have been in the contract when you signed it.

  40. stitchinthyme*

    This has been a difficult week for me, so bear with me; I’ll try to keep this work-related but it concerns a health issue. It may be more venting than advice-seeking.

    Background: I have had hearing problems for years, but up until last weekend I had one functional ear and was able to get by pretty well, just occasionally having to ask people to repeat stuff, especially in loud-background-noise situations. I recently had a cochlear implant in the bad ear (not activated yet – that’s a week from today) which, while not strictly necessary, I was fondly hoping would improve those situations where I had problems. However, the universe decided to throw a monkey wrench in my plans, and suddenly over the course of last weekend, I experienced a sudden drop in hearing and comprehension in my one good ear, leaving me with a speech recognition rate of about 12%. I am getting treatment, and of course there’s the implant, but there’s no guarantee that the treatment will work, and it may take months before I can learn to distinguish sounds with the implant; it’s not a simple “turn it on and boom, you can hear.” I can no longer use the phone, and face-to-face conversation is difficult although not impossible, as I have a microphone that can stream directly into my hearing aid, and my comprehension is much higher when the other person speaks into it.

    I am lucky enough to have a job that doesn’t require a lot of human interaction (software developer). First thing I did when I got to work on Tuesday was send out an email to the coworkers I interact with regularly asking them to limit contact with me to chat or email for the time being, and everyone has been good about that this week. Neither my boss nor grandboss knows anything about this yet because they’re both on vacation, so I have no idea what, if any, official response there might be from the company. I generally only attend one meeting a week, which is optional, so I skipped it this week although a coworker did offer to type up live notes for me on the screen. (I just asked him to fill me in on the status of the two projects I work on afterward.)

    I’m not even sure what I’m asking here. I guess…how do you navigate at work when you have such a devastating and life-changing thing happen? Words of advice or support are welcome.

    This next bit feels a bit petty to mention, but it’s bugging me, so…aside from the two coworkers I’m closest to, not a single one of them has said a word to me (even via online chat) about this. I have no desire to be the center of attention and I totally understand that it’s hard to know what to say when someone has a bad thing happen to them, and probably even more awkward when you can’t say it in person, but still, a simple “Hey, how you holding up?” or “Really sorry this happened to you.” It feels like no one gives a crap, and it hurts a bit. I’ve been here six years, so it’s not like I just met these people.

    And then there’s my fears for the future. I can do my job just fine with limited hearing…but if I ever decide I want to look elsewhere, how would I get through an interview if I can’t properly hear the interviewer? Disability discrimination is a very real thing; I’m sure most employers figure it’s a lot less hassle to hire someone who isn’t almost deaf.

    I know I’m borrowing trouble, and that cochlear implants have helped thousands so there’s a good chance it’ll help me as well, or that the treatment on my (formerly) good ear could work. But this is still very fresh for me and my brain won’t stop dwelling on worst-case scenarios.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, it is so hard to be in the middle of something like that. I’m sorry, and I hope treatment and the cochlear implant work to get you where you want to go.

      On the co-workers thing–tbh, it wouldn’t occur to me to check in on somebody after that information unless we were close friends outside of work. I would probably say something in a first response, though, assuming you made it clear that this was serious and not just an URI or something.

      Disability discrimination, as with all kinds of discrimination, is real, but that doesn’t mean disabled people can’t get ever jobs. A quick Google finds that deaf software engineers are out there, so you wouldn’t be the first or only.

      I hope your news and ears improve.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        That’s actually comforting. And it’s also true that I have not checked in on one of my own coworkers who had a power-tool accident a week or so ago and injured his hand pretty badly. I keep thinking I should, but I’m not all that close to him, and I don’t really know what to say.

        I guess my own feelings are just a bit raw right now and I’m being overly sensitive.

        1. fposte*

          I think whenever we suffer a tragedy or big setback we feel like it’s the most visible, loudest, smelliest thing in the room, and that it seems astonishing people could pass us by without noticing or thinking about it. But that’s all internal; it’s just mind-boggling what a tempest you can have internally and everything seem everyday externally.

          1. valentine*

            this is still very fresh for me and my brain won’t stop dwelling on worst-case scenarios.
            This is me all over because I like to prepare and, for something like surgery, I do everything I can ASAP and am actually successful at letting it lie and waiting it out.

            Your coworkers are taking their cue from your matter-of-fact request and possibly don’t want to offend by suggesting there’s anything inherently wrong with being deaf or hard of hearing. Look around for your local Deaf community, if you haven’t done so, and see what resources there are. Think about accommodations like live captioning or speech-to-text for your one meeting, so you can still participate, or asking for them to be recorded and subtitled or transcribed.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Yeah, I could definitely see people not saying anything for fear of saying the wrong thing and causing offense.

        2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I think it’s also possible they’re thinking “oh my god you can’t just ask someone about their disability”. It does sound like they are trying to be supportive in other ways, which suggests a healthy workplace and therefore no need to fear the return of management.

          I’m sorry about your new difficulties. Sometimes this kind of thing gives us a taste of mortality – I also have reduced hearing and my sight has started to go, so I am feeling my world shrink. It’s not always about the thing it’s about.

        3. stitchinthyme*

          I decided to ask the coworker how his hand is. Unfortunately, typing is hard for him since he’s using one hand and I can’t really go talk to him, so I kinda feel guilty about asking over chat now. I just can’t win. :-)

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Has he found Speech to text yet? You do have to put up with a lot of weird Miss transliterations, like that one for example, but it does work. Mostly. I use it when my hands hurt from too much computer work.

            2. ToS*

              Agreeing with SiT – Speech-to text has a long learning curve. Think about any time you’ve used that function on a smartphone. It’s often not accurate. Typically at a rate that makes you correct it or send a follow-up text for clarification.

              That accommodation is typically reserved for long-term use as the software has to get used to your vocal idiosyncrasies, which takes months. Typically a one-handed keyboard is the way to go.

    2. Mel*

      Wow, that sucks. I’m sorry :( I imagine that many of your coworkers (particularly if they are software engineers, or work with software engineers) might feel awkward about bringing it up to you, and don’t want to intrude on what might be very personal.

      That said, there are plenty of Deaf software engineers. There’s even a professional slack group: https://www.deafpros.com/

      A friend of mine is a Deaf software engineer and is kicking ass. There are definitely trials associated with any sort of disability. Some employers will have issues. You may have to educate people, even though you shouldn’t have to. But plenty of Deaf/HoH folks live kickass lives. You can do this. You’ll need to establish a new normal, but you’ll get there.

      Best of luck! And look for local meetups, too.

    3. BeenThere*

      I am hearing impaired, too, though it sounds like I have more hearing than you do. I wear powerful hearing aids, but they’re pretty small and hidden behind my hair. My biggest problem is that people forget that I need them to look at me when they talk to me. Oh, and also, when I ask them to repeat themselves, what I really want is for them to exactly repeat what they said. It’s not that I’m stupid and didn’t understand them — I don’t need an explanation, I just need them to say it again.
      Group meetings are very hard. Recently, they hooked microphones up into the Skype meeting system, but not into speakers in the meeting room. It’s often easier for me to hear if I attend a meeting using Skype. Otherwise, I have to sit right in front of the speaker. I hate that though — I’d rather sit with my group and not feel so isolated and alone up at the front (people don’t sit in front rows for some reason).
      So, what have I done… I talked to my manager about trying to get people to talk louder at meetings. That works for the next meeting, but then people forget. So I do Skype whenever I can.
      When I can’t hear someone, I no longer say, “What did you say?” or “What?” Now I say, “Can you please repeat what you just said?” If they’re looking away from me when they talk, I just say, “I can’t hear you when you’re not looking at me.” (That problem has actually become rarer.)
      I don’t think my hearing is getting worse, so I can’t offer any suggestions for that. But I do feel for you. Hearing loss is isolating when everyone else around you can hear and just assumes you can, too.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        I might be able to adjust my current hearing aid or get a better one. Since this just happened, my HA is programmed for how my ear was before that, so adjusting it is probably not a bad idea. I will see about that when I go in for another test on Monday. I don’t want to go for a new one until I have some idea if the steroids will work, but at least I can see about making the current one work better for me in the meantime.

      2. stitchinthyme*

        Also, I am in kind of an odd place with my hearing: I can hear most normal sounds pretty clearly, but tone discrimination has dropped way down. Even if I can hear something, I can’t always interpret it; for example, last weekend my, who was in another room, sneezed, and I heard it but could not figure out what the noise was — I had to ask. This means that even if someone is speaking loudly enough that I can hear them just fine, I still can’t necessarily understand what they’re saying. This is something I never even knew was a thing until after my first hearing loss episode years ago: that volume and clarity are two totally different things.

        2. BeenThere*

          Yes, that happens to me all the time. I’ll hear a noise, and not know where it came from or what it was. Very frustrating. And yes, do get your aids adjusted. It can make a big difference.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      So I am the asshole who told me mother-in-law should wouldn’t be able to babysit her grandchild until she got hearing aids so I understand how limited hearing can significantly impact your life.
      But I think with your chosen career path and the two coworkers who have been great over the last week, you’ll be fine. I know it is hard not to freak out over such a sudden change in one of you senses that was already compromised but you have plans in place! You have the implant. You are undergoing treatment for the good ear. You know how to navigate your current job for the time being with little impact on your productivity and ability to succeed. Focus on those things right now.
      Plus they have a TON of gizmo’s and gadgets for people with hearing impairment that are really incredible. My MIL has a little device she carries around in her purse that she can hook up to any TV and have the sound stream into her hearing aids. She has an app records conversations or whatever and will transcribe them (sounds great for that meeting you mentioned). Talk to your audiologist and see what options are out there – MIL only has 10% hearing in one ear and 30% in the other so she is pretty limited.

      I’ve had to deal with a few potentially life changing things and discovered that my reaction it to power through until resolution. When I was 9 months pregnant my husband was nearly killed in a car accident. A year later he nearly died again when his heart stopped beating and went into a-fib. In both instances my breakdown happened after the required surgeries and at follow up appointments got the “surgery was successful and we expect full recovery” speech. I just kept putting one foot in front of the other until I reached the end of the path. I was also a trained low-level first responder so I think that also helped – I had a “process” of sorts to follow that I tweaked to fit my situation. Distraction also helps. If there is a game you really like to play online or you are an avid reader/knitter/etc…do a lot of what makes you happy right now to take your mind off of it. I went swimming a LOT.

      As for the other coworkers, how much did you interact before this? Have you witnessed them consoling other coworkers over significant life events or are they the “I have no idea what to say so won’t say anything?” types? My grandfather and FIL passed while I was at current employer and I’ve signed dozens of birthday, anniversary, retirement, congrats, etc… cards over my years here. I did not get a sympathy card from the department but one person did give me a lovely card and a chocolate bar. Others said stuff when it came up or right after I came back from leave but mostly it was just business as usual.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        I do tend to be an introvert and keep to myself a lot. We have our own offices here, and I was never a huge one for random chatting, though it did happen occasionally. Plus, two of the other three people I was likely to chat with have left; the third is my boss, who as I mentioned is on vacation this week.

        As I said above, I think my feelings are just raw this week and I’m feeling more sensitive to everything than I usually do. And I’m also really tired, as the steroids (treatment for the good ear) and the worry are messing with my sleep patterns.

      2. stitchinthyme*

        Also: I don’t think you’re an asshole for insisting your MIL get hearing aids. You have to look out for the safety of your child, and if your MIL can’t hear someone breaking into the house, a smoke alarm going off, or the baby starting to choke, that puts your kid in serious danger. It’s common sense. Plus, it pisses me off that so many people are too vain to get hearing aids — like some kind of old-age stigma. I mean, I never had that because I got my first one at 37, but I always considered it no different than glasses: just another corrective device that helps make my life better.

        1. valentine*

          if your MIL can’t hear someone breaking into the house, a smoke alarm going off, or the baby starting to choke, that puts your kid in serious danger.
          There are d/Deaf people who can’t hear any of those and it doesn’t cause serious danger. Being d/Deaf or hard of hearing isn’t inherently dangerous.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            Totally fair point. However, CC’s MIL could have mitigated the problem with a hearing aid and chose not to. I don’t blame CC for insisting.

          2. CupcakeCounter*

            It is very true that being hearing impaired isn’t dangerous in and of itself. It is being hearing impaired and refusing to utilize the technology and medical devices available that is dangerous. Until my ultimatum (which made her cry and call me cruel but my husband, her son backed me up 100% so no Dear Prudence letters), her solution was to either pretend she heard (oh the stories I could share) or get mad at you for “forgetting” she couldn’t hear and not standing directly in front of her so she could try to read your lips. Her auto insurer actually dropped her coverage because of a couple of accidents she was in where her being unable to hear things like a car horn and EMS sirens were a significant contributor to the wreck. Her family had been begging her for years to get hearing aids – it truly was her vanity that kept her from getting them.

            1. stitchinthyme*

              As I said, this sort of thing makes me so angry. We live in an age where there is amazing technology to help with hearing loss, and so many people refuse to use it because…they don’t want people to think they’re old, I guess? I’ve never had much vanity myself, but I cannot imagine sacrificing my quality of life because I don’t want people to think I’m old. And besides, most hearing aids nowadays are so small that unless the wearer is bald, they’re hardly noticeable. No one realizes I have them unless I say so.

          3. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Life safety industry here with a Deaf co-worker.
            Strobe smoke alarms exist — bright enough to wake you up–but people who don’t admit their hearing loss probably don’t have them.
            Similarly Deaf people caring for children watch for visual cues in a way that a newly hearing impaired grandmother might not think to do.
            And I grew up with an older mother who didn’t admit her midrange hearing loss for decades …leading to years of scolding me for mumbling on a daily basis. (Which is probably why I’m now told I’m too loud. Sigh.)

    5. Deaf Tech*

      Speaking as someone who is completely deaf (and used to have a Cochlear Implant) people will not ask about your disability unless you start the conversation. It’s likely not that they don’t care, but they don’t want to overstep.

      The implant will likely help you a lot, but as you said it’s not ‘boom, fixed’. It will take a lot of time, training and work. It also is not exactly like regular hearing even once you have trained your brain.

      If you expect your hearing to degrade more, I would really encourage you to look into sign language training. Honestly, I know a lot of hard of hearing people who felt they could get by or pass with 1 on 1s or small groups, but once they started learning sign it became so much easier for them to navigate meetings or situations where there is a lot of background noise (i.e. training or conferences) with interpreters.

      There is also several speech to text apps out there, like Ava, which are not perfect, but can help fill in the blanks in group situations.

      Discrimination and Abelism is definitely a thing and unfortunately deafness is something that is really strongly discriminated against in employment due to the ongoing nature of accessibility. Because of communication limitations, deaf people are often pigeonholed as not being intelligent. As well, unlike if you are in a wheelchair, they can’t just install a ramp/door opener as a one-time expense that will benefit the whole office, you would need individualized accessibility all the time for every situation and that is really expensive to deal with. Some places have been great about it, there is a Software Engineer at Intel that has on-site interpreters for example, for himself and a few other staff, others pretty much have their deaf employee in the corner and never really interact with them.

      For interviews, I find that if they aren’t willing to accommodate your disability at the interview, it’s not a place that you would want to work, because they won’t accommodate you once you start working.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        My one problem with ASL is the time commitment. I just Googled it and found that as with any other new language, it takes years to become proficient. Several of my friends have offered to attend classes with me, and I know my husband would as well, but there’s still that long period of time in between when I am not good enough to have an actual conversation. And plus, I’m one of those really independent people who hates asking anyone for anything, and asking my friends to sink that much time into something for me is foreign to my nature.

        1. BelleMorte*

          Not necessarily, my husband became proficient in a matter of months just by learning from me alone. It really depends on how much you put into it. Plus keep in mind that there will be times when you won’t/can’t wear your implant i.e. when you are going to bed, showering, swimming, doing sports (sometimes). There are a lot of free lessons out there like lifeprint dot com if you want to give it a shot.

        2. Patty Mayonnaise*

          I encourage you to do it and take your friends up on their offer! They want to support you, and learning sign is fun and it’s so useful. My sister is hard of hearing and was never formally taught sign, but she finger spells and knows some basic signs that really support her understanding in challenging conversational environments. I sign at the same level as her, which is not that much, and it still helps us communicate. I think you will see benefits from signing in the short term as you work towards the long-term goal of being conversationally fluent.

    6. Waverly*

      Hello! I have severe to profound hearing loss and I have a cochlear implant for my bad ear (my right ear). Not only that, but I’m in the process of losing all of my hearing as well.

      Okay so the first thing I have learned to do is have open communication with my employers and my co- workers. Explain what’s going on with your hearing briefly and what accommodations you may need for communication and going about assignments. For example, I have a family friend that has some serious hearing loss and his employers and co-workers shoot him an email about assignments and he can quickly get things done with an email. He had a client who didn’t know of his hearing, so when the client was talking to him- he didn’t hear a thing (which isn’t his fault). The client went to the employers complaining about him and they sided with their employee saying they should send him an email and he will get it done. With that, problem solved. Open communication on your hearing loss is really important.

      Cochlear implant: I know new things are scary and you don’t know what will happen. Just take it one step or day at a time. I got the implant as a teen and had to adjust to the cochlear for a bit. It was definitely loud and strange at first but then, I got it tuned to my head/hearing, and WOW what a difference it made!! It helped with a lot for me. I still struggle with crowds because everything is one volume. My cochlear is the baha, so it can stream music from my phone and I can talk on the phone and be able to have conversations with the implant. Depends if your cochlear can do this, each one is different.

      Navigating life with hearing loss… depends really on how you view it. I talk openly about my hearing loss with everyone and yes, I do get a lot of discrimination for it. I try not to let that bring me down. I make a lot of jokes about it and I’ll talk to my friends about the scary stuff and my frustrations. I approach my hearing loss like it’s a normal everyday thing because it is. I don’t think it’s taboo or strange as other hearing people like to put it as. I’m proud and confident about myself. Come to terms with your hearing loss, the inevitable, and be okay with it. It’s another obstacle in your story of life.

      So the friend thing, I have been there and I didn’t handle it well. But from what I’ve learned, take the initiative to talk about it with them. Vent, talk or do what you need to do to make them feel comfortable about it. To them, it’s a foreign concept that they never thought they had to deal with, be open and talk about it. Make them comfortable and make yourself comfortable with talking about it to them.

      Disability discrimination is SO REAL!!! Ugh I can’t explain how me mentioning my hearing loss has lost me opportunities. I know that disability discrimination is illegal but people still do it. I’m trying to navigate the interviewing process with my hearing loss as well and it’s not going well right now. So I don’t have an answer to that.

      Anyways, I hope the cochlear goes well and brings you some good news!

    7. Interplanet Janet*

      For scrum, any chance you use (or could use) Google Hangout? There’s a closed captioning you can turn on that does, actually, a pretty reasonable job of transcribing what people are saying in realtime.

      I’m sorry you’re having this trouble, and I agree with the others that your coworkers are probably trying to be sensitive to bringing up ‘personal medical stuff’.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        I doubt that would work here — NDAs and government work mean our internal network is locked down, and although we do have access to the real Internet, I doubt they’d be okay with putting any private company info on it.

    8. warty toes*

      I’m sorry that you’re experiencing all of this. I work in tech/dev as well – and unless I’m *really* good friends with you, I’d never mention it. It doesn’t mean I don’t care, but I’m trying to respect your privacy. This is a health situation at work: I’m trying not to talk about it and focus on “professional” things. If we’re friends, then it’s different. If we’re friends, you’ve already told me what’s going on when we’ve had coffee, and you’ve expressed all your fears/emotions to me then. But otherwise? I’m trying to show my caring by respecting privacy.

    9. Fortitude Jones*

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you. As someone with a disability of my own, I’m always fearful it will get worse and negatively impact my ability to work, so I completely understand your fear and anxiety right now. I hope your treatment goes well and your implant works as expected – no advice, just wanted to offer you that support to let you know you’re not alone.

    10. OtterB*

      Re coworkers not responding – I might not, because I would be afraid I would come off as nosy, and think that “stitchinthyme can still do their job, no need to say anything” is the right response.

      This group is mainly concerned with access of students with disabilities (including hearing issues) to computer science undergraduate and graduate programs, but will probably connect to some resources about workplace issues: https://www.washington.edu/accesscomputing/

      Wishing you all the best as you navigate this. Uncertainty can be harder than just dealing with it, once you know what “it” is.

    11. Owler*

      Search for ALDA (dot org): Association of Late Deafened Adults. I think you might find a community of people who can both sympathize and advise. Assuming you are in the US and you can make it happen, they have a conference in October in Kansas that would be a great time to meet other people who have been in a similar work situation as you.

    1. NoLongerYoung*

      Fascinating, and it appears to support what I suspected for several years now… it is bias, not opportunity, that is the hurdle.

  42. Quiltrrr*

    Thank you, Alison, for your suggestions about cover letters. I used your suggestions in drafting 2 cover letters for positions, and I have interviews with both coming up!

  43. Miss Fisher*

    What is your take on minimum wage increases at a workplace? A company in the news here raised their wage to 18 from 15 per hour. Some people are happy, but most aren’t as they don’t think its fair that all employees get the increase.

    1. Art3mis*

      As someone who is at the low end of the pay spectrum and would love to get a $3.50 raise, I’m all for it.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I’m a huge fan of minimum wage increases. I feel that as long as everyone’s salary is brought up to the cost of living standard then all’s good.

    3. Book Lover*

      It sounds like people don’t care if they are underpaid as long as someone else is even more underpaid. The problem isn’t people going from $15 to $18 an hour, it’s a system that doesn’t pay most people enough.

      2. Grapey*

        +1.

        Like those memes that say (paraphrased) “You think a fast food worker should make the same as an EMT at $18?” No, I think an EMT should make more than that!

    4. Interviewer*

      “It’s not fair” – is this coming from employees? It’s *not* a merit increase that an employee has to earn. It’s an increase in base pay. Good grief.

    5. animaniactoo*

      Did they comparatively raise everyone’s wage across the board or only those below $18/hr to $18/hr?

    6. 867-5309*

      A few years ago, someone’s Facebook post made the rounds and it was along the lines of this: “We’re so busy fighting over the last piece of pie that we don’t realize the mega-wealthy have walked away with the rest.”

      Anything that rebuilds a middle class in America is aces in my book.

      1. animaniactoo*

        That might be part of the key to the reaction though. If they just raised those below $18/hr and did nothing for the person making $20/hr, they have done a great thing for everyone under $18/hr and simultaneously devalued the salary/market worth of the increased responsibilities of the person making $20/hr. People may have a real issue, just not the one they’re perceiving it as.

    7. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Wage compression is a HUGE problem, if you’re a company that tends towards minimum wage pay to begin with. Let’s say you have a Barn Attendant, who checks people in and out of the barn, who gets paid minimum wage ($10.) But the Llama Trainer gets paid 25% over minimum wage ($12.50), because they had to take a llama trainer certification class and maintain that certification through taking more classes or continuing ed credits, they have more responsibility and liability with regards to the health and welfare of the llamas and their riders, and they have to be active their entire shift while the Barn Attendant can goof around on the internet when it’s slow.

      If you raise the minimum wage so the llama trainers and the barn attendants are both making $15, you will lose all of your llama trainers, because they will calculate that they can get the same wage for less work and less responsibility elsewhere, and many of them will quit the field entirely, shifting to another easier minimum wage role. The same will happen if you have a Barn Attendant who’s been in place for 10 years and as a result of annual step increases, was making $13 an hour but is now making minimum wage. That Barn Attendant will also likely leave the company for one that will allow them to negotiate a higher starting wage, because they feel their work experience is not being valued or respected if they are being paid the same as a brand new barn attendant off the street.

      It’s also easy to say that everyone’s wages should be raised with respect to the same percentage of each other, so if the Barn Attendant is getting $15, then the Llama Trainer should get 25% over 15 or $18.75, but if you’re a low profit margin llama barn (say, you’re a nonprofit llama barn, or a therapeutic llama barn, or you’re a rescue that takes in neglected/abused/high medical need llamas) you might not have that much slack in your budget to rearrange funds. It’s tough.

      1. LLama Trainer turned Barn Attendant*

        As a former LLama Trainer, this is a spot on analogy that more people should read and understand.

    8. BelleMorte*

      I think it’s important to move the pay upwards and the money that executives get is ridiculous. I kind of get where those people are coming from though. I’ve worked jobs where you are told that you are paid what you are worth, and then fight for years for tiny little increases to your salary. You finally have a “higher” wage and that comes with some minute recognition for all the hard work you have put in over the years, then suddenly you are told that the kid who was hired yesterday with no experience, that you will need to train will get the same amount of money as you.

      I think it’s less about the money, and more about the perceived devaluing of all the work that people put in to get to that point. So 10 years of experience suddenly equals 1 day in terms of the only recognition they get i.e. money.

      It would make more sense COL-wise if everyone received the increase i.e. if the minimum was 10 now it’s 15, everyone should get $5 across the board. Instead it is more, the bottom gets $5, the middle gets 0, the executive get a + 1 million increase.

    9. Holly*

      I understand the concern if wages for those who earn above minimum wage are not also increased.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s usually what happens – they raise wages for the folks being severely underpaid, but then don’t adjust the wages of everyone else who is also underpaid, but just not as severely as the people who got raises.

  44. Postdoc*

    I’m a postdoc in a lab and we recently had a veterinary resident join the lab for one year. Long story short, I volunteered to have her work on my project and share equal credit with her. However, when it came time to schedule experiments, it became clear that she was unable to do any experiments for three months. Given that, I was no longer willing to share equal credit. There is no way we can complete this project in a years timeframe with her not doing anything for three months unless I do the majority of the work. She reacted badly when I told her this and thinks I am being unfair for removing her from the project.

    I do have my boss’s backing. I talked to my boss before removing her from the project and did not act unilaterally. However, I’m unsure how to move forward with this coworker or how much to tell my boss about the interpersonal issues. This coworker is extremely pushy and keeps trying to delegate work to me (my boss already verified that I am in charge of the project, not the other way around). I would prefer to work with her as little as possible moving forward. Is there a good way to make that request to my boss or should I just suck it up as much as possible?

    1. warty toes*

      Is she still working on the project in some way? My experience in science fields is that gentle hints are not always taken – sometimes you have to be very explicit. “This is my project, don’t tell me what to do. If you have a problem, please take up issues with Boss” .
      Does Boss want you to work together? Is coworker still involved in the project, just not as much? You said you were removing her from the project, so do you work together on other things? Sorry, I guess I’m unclear.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      Since it seems like you are still working with co-worker, it’s worth addressing the issues with her first, particularly as you are in charge of the project. When she attempts to delegate work to you, say something like:

      “I’ve noticed that you’ve taken to delegating work to me. Since I’m in charge of the project, it’s best that I choose where the work goes. Can you keep that in mind going forwards?”

      But, honestly, this co-worker sounds a little difficult. I’ve got a number of ESL students in academia and I hear this sort of thing all the time – people join the project but then don’t have enough time to devote to the project and it’s all a big annoyance. What one of my students did was deal with the co-worker direct, but there seemed to have been more of a power disparity between them than there is with you and yours. The best thing to do would be to loop your boss in, especially as you have already spoken to them on this matter before. I might say something like:

      “A while ago we spoke about co-worker not being able to properly contribute to the project. I just wanted to let you know that she didn’t take the fact that she wouldn’t be getting equal credit well and thinks that it was unfair of me to remove her from the project. Since then I’ve noticed incidences where she has been pushy and attempted to delegate work [prepare concrete examples] and I’m having trouble thinking about how to proceed. What do you think I should do next?”

      If possible, remove her from the project completely as well. Try and get her out of your lab or office or wherever you work if that’s feasible.

  45. Coffee Nut*

    Question initiated from OP1 today. What are some team building/morale boosting things that DO work?

    I am a newer (1 year) supervisor and my team has really low morale. They have been overworked (especially with summer vacations on top of new Director putting more tasks on everyone), we are customer facing (extra stress), and a government entity (so no budget to do anything fun or exciting). What are some inexpensive options to help release the tension and bring them back to working as a team instead of nitpicking on each other? I don’t mind spending some money out of my pocket (assuming it is a reasonable expense). I do bring in breakfast every so often and try to make it a point to let them know I appreciate them and point out specific examples when I see someone going above and beyond, but I would like to do something that will allow them to regroup.

    For context: The nitpicking is more about how one person does a specific task one way and another person does it a different way so they bicker about how it should be done. I really don’t care how it’s done as long as the end result is correct.

    Also, I do know part of the problem was the stress from working with one employee who is not approachable and hard to work with. She is quick to point out others mistakes, but doesn’t not take feedback for her own very well. This employee is temporarily working in another department and it did alleviate some stress immediately, but this employee may be returning to our department later this month and I want to be on top of stopping any added stress that may come back with her.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      You might not like this answer, but I don’t really think activities really work to boost morale if morale is already just low because of working conditions. I think these kind of activities can help if you already have a good working and functioning team with good morale because they already enjoy being together and working towards a common goal, but I don’t really think going bowling or having the team out for a happy hour is productive if working conditions aren’t great.

      I realize that a lot of this is outside of your control – especially in government. But you said your staff is overworked, so I think you could boost morale by re-prioritizing work loads or hiring additional people, which I know is not always possible or feasible. You say you have someone that no one enjoys working with – you could work to get that person permanently on another team, but that is also difficult to do. I think the only thing you can really do right now is be as flexible and understanding as you can within your role and within your constants – don’t be nit-picky about people’s vacation time, don’t be rigid about things that really don’t need to get done right away, make sure that you have an open door policy that people can come in and talk to you, and set up some individual one-on-one time with your team to really hear their concerns. Good luck mate.

      1. Birch*

        I’m gonna second this. You can’t boost morale because morale is low for a reason. You need to find and address the source of the problem. If pointless nitpicking has become a sort of office culture, you can try to redirect it when you see it by reminding people that they are all responsible for doing the work however it gets done and that as a team you should respect each other’s preferences and ways of working. If the one employee is causing problems for other people, you need to address the nitpicking with her and ask her not to do it. It’s more complicated if your employees are responsible for parts of each other’s work though.

        You sound like a great supervisor though! Keep letting people do things the way that works for them, keep checking in with people and letting them know when they’ve done something good.

      2. CatCat*

        A+ to all of this.

        No team building exercise is going to fix the workplace problems here. Control what you can control, especially tamping down on the nitpicking and watching Negative Nancy like a hawk when she gets back and immediately addressing unacceptable behaviors that she displays. It can go from stressful to fully toxic pretty easily here.

        I think you need to address the overworked issue with your higher ups. What outcomes do the higher ups want here? You will start to see turnover if people continue to be overworked, stressed, and picked on. I will say, the higher ups may not care about turnover, but it’s valuable information for you to have if that’s the case.

    2. INeedANap*

      I agree that there really isn’t a lot that will improve morale under tough working conditions, but managing the interpersonal issues might help. Can you be vigilant about stopping the nitpicking in its tracks? Additionally, can you address the returning employee’s behavior of pointing out mistakes as soon as she returns and be vigilant in stopping it?

      You might not get everyone feeling like a team, but if you can stop the most negative behaviors from occurring you could probably get rid of some of that tension and make it feel like a less hostile/adversarial place.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      For the nitpicking on process – I’m afraid you are going to have to care. Pick a method that has the most reliable results and declare that the official SOP and have the team member that does it that way write up an official process document. Do that with everything (as things calm down from summer vacations) and try to split the work evenly so everyone get a “win”.
      Do some yourself as well if needed.

      1. M*

        This won’t work if both ways are reasonable, because whoever’s “lost” will just keep insisting that any problems/delays/their personal sense they could do it faster are all because you picked the “wrong” process. It’ll just change the nature of the nitpicking.

        If it’s actually reasonable to do it either way (for e.g., one person is determining that 2*2=4 by entering “=2*2” into an excel cell, the other is using a physical calculator, neither is getting a result any faster or more accurate than the other), then the bickering is actually more likely to be friendly venting, because everyone’s stressed and overworked, and this is a low-stakes thing to disagree in a friendly way over.

        If it *actually* makes a difference, you either need to tell your nitpicker that it’s not a difference you care about, and make it clear that if their nitpicking is anything other than friendly banter, they need to stop; or you need to decide you *actively* care, and work to bring the nitpickee along with you, rather than just overruling them.

    4. Foreign Octopus*

      I think the best thing to do is to try and nip this nitpicking in the bud. You’re the manager and you have the standing to tell them to cut it out. Let them know that you don’t care how it’s done as long as it’s done and that way A is just as fine as way B, but you appreciate their commitment to their work. The question is though: do these nitpicking co-workers work on the same task? I mean, does doing it one way cause hardship for the other co-worker? If that’s the case then set down guidelines about how the task should be done so that there’s clarity.

      As for boosting morale, advocate for your team with upper management. Talk to your director about the extra work and say that your team is on the path to burning out if you’re both not able to find a way to ease up the burden be that through prioritisation, extra staff (temp staff), appropriating staff from other departments to help out. It sounds as though tempers are fraying under the extra stress and the best thing to do is to attempt to mitigate that stress as best you can.

      Finally, I find pizza is good. If you’re willing to stump up for a pizza lunch every now and then, go for it. Try and gather the whole team together and talk about things not related to work: tv, books, film, whatever. Try and get them to relax and maybe let lunch go on for a bit longer but making sure you pay them appropriately if possible. However, this is a band-aid for the main issues that I think you need to address above.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        On the pizza thing – I do want to add that this only works if your team actually likes each other and would want to spend time together in a non-work setting. Our boss has tried to do this, but since our team doesn’t really like each other, it does fall flat.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, it sounds like this team would be better served by having the (free to them) pizza delivered to the office and allowing them to eat/graze at their desks all afternoon.

    5. Velveteen*

      What works is more money, more time off, and/or effective management. What doesn’t? So-called teambuilding exercises.

        1. Velveteen*

          It lets them know that the things they are hoping to introduce will not have the desired effect, and that the changes that are necessary are not things that they are able to implement without buy-in from higher up. Hopefully, this will prevent them trying to implement team building activities that will not work, will waste time sad effort, and may indeed backfire and result in a decrease motivation and morale.

          Thanks for asking, sweetie!

    6. RandomU...*

      Sometimes some low key things that get people out of the work mode for a couple of minutes and interacting with others on a different level and re-humanize each other.

      With what you described I’d keep it really low key though. Bring in some bagels or something and stand there while you eat your bagel to chat with people as they come up to get one. Engage them in non work conversation try to get a couple talking to each other before everyone grabs one and runs back to their desk.

      This one may sound a little weird and you’ll have to be careful it doesn’t come across as forced fun or contrived… but years ago a fairly simple puzzle, maybe 300 pieces showed up on the break room table (to this day I have no idea how it got there). For about a month people would walk in grab a cup of coffee, put a few pieces together… wander off… grab lunch… put together a few more pieces as they waited for the microwave… chatted a bit “Damn…I can’t find that bird’s beak” “Oh I found that yesterday I put it with the cloud pieces” went back to work… etc.

      Even non participants sort of kept an eye on progress, asked others about it stayed to chat with someone while they looked for a piece. Some people who were usual desk lunch eaters started eating in the breakroom to work on the puzzle for a bit… you’re starting to get the idea right? It wasn’t anything planned. It wasn’t even ‘announced’ it was just sort of there and people sort of worked on it over the course of a couple of months.

      It doesn’t have to be a puzzle, it could really be anything that gets people to stop for a few seconds and think about non work stuff. (legos, a team white board with cartoons or something added, some of those cheap crossword puzzle books, etc.)

      So besides the work stuff like re-prioritizing, cutting some slack where possible, etc. I’d not try to a ‘planned’ group thing in your situation, but look for ways to encourage non work interaction as part of their normal day.

      1. M*

        Except if staff are overworked, dragging them out of the office (whether during work time or not), or pushing them to spend their lunch time together, is just going to make people *more* irritable. So how you do these things really, really matters. “There’s bagels in the breakroom every Tuesday now!” is different from “Come get your bagel and we’ll chat your favourite sports ball team!” – in this kind of context, you can’t have staff feeling in *any* way pressured to spend time on work-socialising.

    7. Akcipitrokulo*

      Do you follow regular patterns (like sprints in agile IT?)

      when we had monthly sprints, we had a retrospective at the end that always had discussions on how to improve but ALWAYS listened respectfully and addressed issues, not people… which is a big part but anyway…. then we went to lunch.

      The team post-retro lunch was a big team building plus. It was voluntary (really), on payday, and if it ran over your scheduled lunch break it was counted as work time.

    8. Akcipitrokulo*

      On the nitpicking – there is a part of it you care about – the result. So cut it short with “what I require is at the end of X time, Y is produced and it adheres to the following standards. If that is not produced, we will discuss improvements. If it is produced, then your method is acceptable.” and then enforce that by telling whichever one is picking at the time “the method used is not one of my requirements. Please don’t comment on that.”

      This is of course assuming that there isn’t an effect on other person.

    9. Akcipitrokulo*

      Sorry for 3 comments!

      The last one would be a morale sucker. Really. But it might be an issue that could respond to the team as a whole learning how to give feedback and express issues – maybe in a brief catch up, maybe ina retrospective, but always talking about what happened not who did it. And emphasise putting things right, not blaming the culprit when things go wrong – make people feel safe to talk about this.

      Which is really tough! But is one of main things which could help.

      Also passive voice is your friend. I know all the style guides say use direct voice… but direct voice can easily be heard as blaming voice. “Sarah did the report wrong again – how do we get her to do it right?” is a long way from “The report caused a backlog when the widget numbers were wrong – let’s keep an eye one that – is there any change we could make to make it easier?”

    10. Mimblewimble*

      I’m in the same boat as an IC, and here are some suggestions from an employee POV: frequently acknowledge accomplishments; recognize when your team is working hard and sincerely thank them; let them leave work early every now and the ; give comp time if they’ve put in a lot of hours; find ways to reduce their workload so they’re not always operating at or above capacity; find out what support from you means to them and do those things if you can; foster a team mentality by modeling the behavior yourself – offer to help out, encourage share of ideas, don’t shoot ideas down, give credit where credit is due, etc.

      Ways to improve morale aren’t just team/group events. It means creating a culture where people feel supported by each other and you, and where their work and accomplishments are recognized. These are the seemingly little things that are actually very important to get right, because this will get your team through those tough periods.

    11. ..Kat..*

      Good pay, good benefits, and good staffing (I.e., employees aren’t working 60 to 80 hours a week). Seriously.

  46. Pottery Gal*

    Hello all–what would you do if you were in a very small department (4 people) and you kind of knew at least two of them disliked you, and the third was your manager who sides with them? Look for another job?

    It’s a weird situation. The least senior employee in our dept. is 25, and this is her 2nd professional job. During her annual review, she gave our mgr. an earful of complaints–about me! Plus she said one or two of the students we work with complained about me (we work in academia). Instead of siding with me, an 8-year department veteran, he took her side. I’d like to give her the benefit of the doubt–that b/c she’s so young, she doesn’t realize tattling is out of place here. The other employee has just never liked me, and I don’t know why. I think I annoyed her in 2014 when I had an outburst about some new technology. Seriously, she put a sign on her wall that I know was directed at me, about negative energy in her space.

    Our workplace has a lot of downtime, and frankly, I think they have nothing better to do with their time. I’m not devoted to this department. Like, I won’t die if I transfer elsewhere. What do you think? Ignore them? I don’t like the fact that my manager expressed regret that he had already completed my review and it was too late to put the young person’s complaints about me on it!

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Honestly I’d probably look for a new job. I worked in a small department like this and didn’t last very long. There were two managers and one assistant who had worked together for a really long time and had become close and honestly they were just three awful people who bonded because they were awful people. The assistant was my supervisor and she refused to train me, but would turn around and tell the two managers that I just wasn’t working and they sided with her.

      You aren’t going to necessarily love everyone that you work with but when you only work with three people and there are problems with all of them, it doesn’t make for a good environment and it can spiral pretty quickly. Maybe if there was another part of your job that you absolutely loved, like your work, your hours, or whatever, then I could see just keeping your head down and plowing on, but if you’re not in love with it then I’d say move on.

    2. Purt's Peas*

      It’s hard to tell what’s going on in your department, but if you can, can you gird your loins and ask what the feedback is? It’s really hard to have the majority of your group of people dislike you! But if the reason is something like, “Pottery Gal has a ton of angry outbursts and that makes me uncomfortable,” that’s feedback worth taking on. If it’s, “uhh, I don’t like Pottery Gal and I think she’s lazy,” or if the feedback is racially motivated, that’s a whole other case!

      That said, it does not sound like your manager is handling this well, and this sounds like a really difficult environment to work in; it’s ok to say, yeah, this is an unhealthy situation and I’m looking for a new gig.

        1. Purt's Peas*

          Yup, just saw that below! Alarm stuff–annoying and petty. Student workers stuff–yeah, if your boss is telling you that you can’t be a hardass to your student workers, you’ve got to listen to your boss. Interpersonally tough to work with–this is a big, important piece of feedback you can’t dismiss out of hand.

          I think, of course it’s okay to look for another job, but improving your interpersonal skills would be a huge benefit to you. And a lot of the time, this a real piece of feedback, not petty. It gets repeated on this site that most people’s job duties implicitly includes, “makes an effort to get along with coworkers; does not make the working environment very unpleasant.” Maybe this would be easier in another job where you got along better with your coworkers, but it’s definitely a pretty big deal.

          1. Purt's Peas*

            And, this doesn’t change that it feels HORRIBLE to be in the kind of environment you’re faced with. That environment alone means of course you can find a new job, and consider all this feedback once you’re not in a place that’s poisoning your ego & social environment.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t know what you mean by “tattling is out of place here”–it’s reasonable for somebody to mention interpersonal conflicts to their boss, and tenure doesn’t automatically mean he should take your side. It sounds possibly like your manager didn’t handle it well, though, if he just passed on all the complaints without talking with you about how to improve the situation.

      But you’re not getting along with your co-workers, you’re getting complaints about you from students, and your manager doesn’t have your back. I can’t tell from here if you’ve hit a confluence of stuff or could work on your interpersonal skills, but it’s not likely to get better for you if you just keep on keeping on. So I’d think about what I wanted–am I looking for growth and advancement? Then that would definitely mean a transfer. I’d also be on my most generous, outburst-free behavior when I transferred, because you want to create a new rep at the new position and dispel any doubts from people who’ve heard other rumors.

      1. Pottery Gal*

        I say tattling because she could have come to me first. I don’t know if she realizes that people can lose their jobs over crap like this. I am the single source of income in my household and just bought a house. The complaints were very petty, such as, “When the alarm on the exit door goes off, Pottery Gal waits for me to reset it.” I explained to my manager that I can’t hear it (I’m nearly 60). OK, fine. For the record, the students’ complaints were that I’m a “hard person.” What actually happened is that two students who didn’t want to get off their bums and do work balked when I asked them to. They ended up leaving–and it was a relief when they did. His attitude is that we need to treat them with kid gloves because “this isn’t a real job.” I probably could use some work on my interpersonal skills; I’ll admit that. But I feel he didn’t handle it well at all, as you say.

        His idea of improving the situation is that if I have problems with student workers, just pass it along to him. I have been working for decades and was taught to handle problems myself–One Minute Manager and all that. Not dump them on my supervisor. But if that’s the way he wants it…

        1. Holly*

          I would be thinking about these issues and wondering if they are truly petty. While the alarm complaint maybe was petty, I’m confused about whether you really having hearing issues or are just brushing it aside and saying you’re 60 (which these days, is not old for being in the workplace, and not indicative of a hearing issue!). It also sounds like a lot of these issues have interpersonal skills in common, as you identified. That is not petty, it’s important!

          1. Pottery Gal*

            Seriously, I do not hear the alarm and she does. We sit side by side. I admit I haven’t had a hearing test in years, but it’s no secret that one’s senses are not as sharp in middle age as they are in one’s youth. ;) I agree, though–it is important.

            1. Bee Have*

              If you cannot hear an alarm that someone sitting beside you can hear, that’s a problem. That’s not normal! Get your hearing checked.

        2. Koala dreams*

          I agree that it’s pointless for the manager to just bring up the alarm issue, they could have suggested getting a light that goes on when the alarm is triggered or changing the alarm to something you can hear (if it’s the specific frequency that’s difficult to hear). You can ask for a meeting and bring it up yourself, if you want.

          As for the student workers, I think it’s great that your manager suggests that you bring him the issues. Hopefully it’ll make him realize all the extra work they create for you and be more understanding. Sometimes it’s a disadvantage when you deal with all problems yourself since it’s so easy for managers to ignore the problems when they never see them for themselves.

    4. Andy*

      OK, so before you dismiss these complaints, please take a close look at them. I say this because you characterized this person’s conversation with your supervisor as ‘tattling’ and I haven’t really worked with anyone who uses that word in a professional context who couldn’t use a hard look at themselves.
      You could transfer. But…if it’s something you could work on, why not? You might be happier at work!

      1. Pottery Gal*

        I’ve been pretty unhappy in this position for several years now. Originally I took the position because I had planned to pursue a master’s degree in this field. I’ve since changed my mind. The job also turned out to be a disappointment. Suggestions I’ve made to improve things have been shot down by my manager more than once. Initiative goes unrewarded. I have a stomach ache every day, knowing I’m coming to work with people who do not like me.

        1. Book Lover*

          You need to save as much money as you can from each paycheck and look for something else. Apply to anything that might be an improvement. If it looks like your job is imminently in danger, look for anything that might fit.

        2. Hiring Mgr*

          I’d say it’s time to start looking.. If you’ve been unhappy for years, and the job is a disappointment, you feel lousy every day, and now this… regardless of the reasons I would probably move on

        3. Andy*

          I’m sorry, this sounds like a bigger unhappiness than I originally thought. Best of luck to you!

        4. fposte*

          With what you’re saying here, I’d look elsewhere. You’re not happy and it doesn’t look like it’s going to get better.

  47. Meredith*

    My company is in the midst of conducting yearly “one-on-ones”. These are not reviews, as they are based, as far as I know, on feedback we had to provide to the higher-ups. They aren’t even one-on-ones, since they are one employee meeting with two managers (including one owner). We had to submit responses to questions like “What is currently working for you? What support do you need? Where do you want to go in your career/position?”

    While all of this seems positive, it’s hardly the first time we’ve been asked for feedback. Rarely do things change. Or they change in ways that don’t address the real issues. For example we need someone with more expertise in X or we need more help in Y, but hiring additional people, or even outsourcing, isn’t on the table. One major issue my boss and I have and have attempted to address with one of the owners (not the one in these meetings) has to do with renewing client contracts, and that has been taken off the table. Ideas regarding client retention, which is a big issue for the owners, have been dismissed.

    So basically, this type of scenario creates the question… how much honesty is too much honesty? What should my expectations be with this meeting? I’ve “prepared” in the sense that I’ve already submitted my answers to their questions via email, which I assume we’ll go over and talk about in more detail.

    I don’t hate my job, I quite like it in fact, but there are some frustrating aspects that just won’t improve, although they absolutely COULD.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      If the owners aren’t open to suggestions for change, and it doesn’t sound like they are since they keep shooting down all of your ideas, I was just give very bland feedback. I’m the type of person who’s not going to care more about my employer than the actual owners do – that’s too much wasted mental energy that could go towards other areas of my life. Good luck with this review session.

  48. Bopeep*

    Should you still give two weeks’ notice if you’ve been at a job only a month? My understanding from past columns is that Alison suggests the two weeks isn’t to find a replacement but to wrap up projects and such. If you are still essentially in training mode, and there isn’t a lot to wrap up, give two weeks’ notice or not?

    1. New (Sort of) Manager*

      I would still do the standard two weeks, but offer to make it sooner if the company prefers.

    3. Bopeep*

      Gotcha. So offer two weeks, but the offer might not be taken.

      Follow-up question… how much of a reason do you need to give for leaving after only a month? I mean, I have a huge laundry list ready to go, but I’m assuming they’d want that only if they ask for an exit interview. Do you just start with something vague about it not being a good fit?

      1. Lisa B*

        Will this be coming as a surprise, do you think? Leaving so quickly is very unusual, so I would have some sort of an answer. Have you talked to your manager about anything on your laundry list up to this point? If you haven’t brought these up, you should probably start with that before going straight to your notice. “When I accepted this position it was supposed to be no travel, but now that I’ve started you’ve asked me to plan four different trips. No travel was a non-negotiable for me, so can we talk about this?”

        If it’s something that isn’t likely to change, like your manager was so nice in the interviews but is actually a raving anger-management case, you should probably just cite “I didn’t anticipate that I would have to do so much X, or the commute isn’t what I thought it would be, or I realized I want to focus more on Y.” You should say something that indicates you know this is unusual, you realize it’s inconvenient for them, and you regret the turn of events.

        If you do quit, leave this short-stay job off your resume.

        1. Bopeep*

          It’s kind of a little of everything. Some stuff I’ve already brought up. Some stuff I haven’t (like the stuff that will very likely not change).

          Yeah, I’m probably going to leave this off my résumé. I was at job-before-this until July, and I’d be starting new job later in August.

      2. Natalie*

        I’m assuming you’re leaving right away because there’s something wrong with the job? (That is, you’re not moving suddenly or having a health crisis or whatever.)

        There’s certainly nothing wrong with being vague, but if you can boil down the issue to one succinct, major point there’s really no harm in sharing it: “You switched me to the midnight shift after my first week”, “this job has 4 times as much travel as we discussed in the interview”, “I was hired as a sales rep but the position seems to be primarily janitorial”. If they’re going to think poorly of you, that probably won’t change anything for better or for worse.

        1. Bopeep*

          Yeah, it’s a bit different from how I was originally sold the position to be, but I’m worried if I bring that specific bit up about the duties, current employer will just promise to change that. It’s really not just one thing. It’s a whole ton of things.

          1. DataGirl*

            Maybe just a generic, ‘The job/company has not proven to be a good fit for me. ‘ If they ask for details you could mention the things you already brought up, or you could reply with ‘there are a number of reasons why this position isn’t suited for me/my skill set, I believe you will do well with someone who is a better fit.’

            1. Bopeep*

              Yeah, I think that’s how I’m inclined to proceed with it not being a good fit. If they’re curious as to more details, I can provide more.

          2. Holly*

            The employer promising to change that doesn’t mean you need to acquiesce (easier said than done, I know).

            1. Bopeep*

              Definitely.

              No, at this point, I’m pretty determined to leave. Already got a job offer somewhere else, which I’m very likely to take. So I’m not going to cave. I just didn’t want to start opening it up to be a discussion or negotiation. Whatever information I want to give is just stuff to give, not to have a whole back-and-forth about.

          3. Natalie*

            IMO the primary reason for being specific would be if there’s some kind of action item they can take from the information. That is, if the interviewer had said X but the position is actually Y, you being clear that their bait and switch has run you off is of some (however small) benefit to the universe, and really no cost to you. But for bad fit I think DataGirl’s suggestion is the best.

            1. Bopeep*

              I’d be willing to have a conversation along the lines of “What do you think we could change to make the next person stay longer?”

  49. New (Sort of) Manager*

    I have been a manager for three years, but nobody actually reports to me. We just hired what will be my first official direct report. What are the most important things I should share/discuss in their first few weeks? We have a great on-boarding program for the department overall, so I’m thinking more in the line of what are things you want to know straight-away of your new manager?

    1. Fibchopkin*

      Be upfront about company leave policies and company culture/your policies concerning things like asking to WFH vs/ having a butt in a seat, lunch hours (do people in your office not really time it so much, or is it very strict?), unusual or specific conversational taboos (for instance, in most work cultures, asking co-workers to go out for a beer would be no big deal, but in some companies, religious affiliation or company policy may make this NOT DONE). Basically, the unspoken company culture stuff that most employees there seem to “just know” can be REALLY difficult for new hires to pick up on, and can cause anxiety. Think of all the letters we’ve seen coming in to Alison from new employees trying to figure out if asking for a mental health day would be frowned on at their company, or whether and how to ask for WFH time.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        To add to this list: discuss dress code upfront. We always get questions either here or letters sent to Alison what to wear to a business casual workplace since that phrase can mean very different things in different workplaces. Clarify that upfront for your new hires so they have one less thing they have to try to guess at when onboarding.

    2. *shrug**

      What are your expectations of him/her?
      What does success at this role look like?
      What are some initial challenges you can see him/her facing?
      And most importantly “I don’t expect you to grasp everything right away or understand everything the first time that it is shown to you. It’s ok for you to come to me with questions if you’ve researched it/looked through your notes and you are still unsure of what to do.”

    3. Zephy*

      If you’re accustomed to doing everything and haven’t had much practice delegating, that can be challenging for both of you. I would look at what tasks you and your new report will be responsible for all together, evaluate that list against the training plan in the on-boarding program, and put together at least a rough game plan for what tasks to delegate to your new hire and when. Also check with your boss to see what tasks you can, and more importantly can’t, delegate to the new hire. If you rely on a software program to do most of your work, make sure they have the required permissions to access whatever data, make whatever changes, run whatever reports they need. When your report is up to speed and fully on-boarded, make sure they’ve been introduced to all the people you communicate with on a regular basis to do your job; if the report will be taking over X function, make sure your contact for X function knows to email/call Jane, not you, going forward. And when they do forget and call you, make sure to loop Jane in and ask her to handle it, rather than just doing it yourself.

    4. Mimblewimble*

      I usually ask my managers: how do you prefer to communicate; what do you expect from your reports; when do you prefer that I escalate things to you; what information/level of detail would you like for our 1:1s.

    5. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      As an employee, I always want to know how directly the manager plans to manage me, once initial training and onboarding is done, because I want to be as independent as possible. Do they want to sign off on everything I do? How can I earn more trust/independence? As a manager, I similarly want to know how much hand-holding the new hire prefers, and to clearly lay out my expectations in that regard: “I’m going to train you directly and closely for the first two weeks. Once I think you’re ready, you’ll be pretty much on your own, though I’m always available for questions.” “For the first few months we’ll have weekly one-on-one meetings; after that I think we can drop to monthly.” “For level one reports, all I need is a record of how many you do each week, but for level two and up, I need to sign off on them before they’re sent out.”

      I have an invisible disability and it really helps to hear up front something like “You haven’t mentioned needing any accommodations, but I just want you to know that if something comes up, I will be more than happy to work with you and HR to make sure you can work comfortably here”. I’m 41 and a lot more comfortable saying “I need this specific brand of ergonomic keyboard” and “you’re going to have to accommodate my wacky sleep schedule because I am physically incapable of changing it” than I used to be, but having management create an opportunity for that conversation makes it so much easier.

      I recently hired someone who has rainbow flags all over their social media presence, and I made sure to say “the company president and his husband” very clearly at least once while we were interviewing; a hint like that is enough to let her know that our company is a safe place to be out. Anything subtle you can do along those lines to help minorities feel safe and welcome—and know that you’ve got their backs—is great.

      I would take the time to directly and personally introduce the new hire to everyone in the office and write up a quick cheat sheet of what everyone does. If they’re working remotely, make introductions over email. This feels a little formal but it’s so great to have a searchable record. “Delphine, Delphine… what did New Manager say about them? Here it is: ‘New Hire, meet Delphine, our database wizard. They’re the person to go to if you have any questions about running queries or exporting data.’ Now I know why they’re cc’d on this email!”

      And YES to all the culture fit things. Are there company meetings? If so, what’s the meeting etiquette? (I remember my absolute terror around this when I started at my current workplace. Everyone arrived at the weekly all-hands with their printed copy of the week’s llama reports and made a big show of flipping through them and pulling out bits to talk about to demonstrate having read them… except me, because no one told me that was expected. I can still feel my stomach sink thinking about it.) What’s the etiquette around the sink, fridge, and coffee pot? Should they bring a mug from home or are there communal ones (that are usually clean)? How much leeway do they have to decorate their cubicle? What’s the dress code? On Friday afternoons, are coworkers going to crack open beers, leave early, or treat it like any other day? Does “be here at 9:30” mean “be here no later than 9:29:59 or we will Have A Talk” or “we generally expect you at 9:30 but I understand the subway isn’t always reliable, so just text me if you’re running late”? Does your employee get your personal cellphone number, and if so, when should they use it? Are executives called by their titles or first names? What are the holiday parties like? Are offsite team-building exercises optional? If they mail the occasional personal package through the mailroom, do they need to pay the shipping costs? All of that and more will be tremendously useful.

      Encourage your new hire to take notes on all the questions that come up in their first few months, both so you can answer them and so you know what the next new hire is likely to want and need. And expect to do a lot of learning and growing yourself through this process.

      Have fun and good luck!

  50. VictoriaQ*

    How frank can you be in an exit interview? Or is frankness mostly a catharsis when you’re leaving a bad company? I’ve talked about the job I’m at before, which is toxic and negative and whatnot. If my job search goes as quickly as I can hope, I’ll have been at the company less than six months before I quit, and can therefore leave it off my resume. But! I’m not sure how helpful it will be. A coworker quit after a mere three weeks yesterday, and despite telling the bosses/owners why she quit, the owners seem baffled and have already accepted the reasoning that the job was ‘just not a right fit’ and therefore are not to blame for any reason as to why the coworker quit. (These reasons were primarily that the coworker was not trained or given support to learn her role, and that the coworker wasn’t given enough work, but was denied going part-time, both of which are true.)

    But how does one go about putting in their two weeks? I’ve heard about letters of resignation, about going in person to your boss, sending emails, etc. Should I write up a letter and hand it in to my boss? Should I just verbally go into my boss and say that I’m putting in my two weeks?

    I hate leaving a job after such a short period (my goal was to stay a year before I even considered job searching) but when I’m in constant tears or full of resentment because my boss asks me to do something or learn something new, something has gone wrong and I need to leave. Ideally, my exit interview would be calm with a few salient points that I think they should consider going forward, because honestly, the worst part of the job is the bosses, everyone else that works here is perfectly nice and normal.

    1. JanetM*

      If I recall correctly, Alison generally recommends meeting with your manager in person if possible, saying that you are resigning and your last day will be X, and giving them hard-copy letter for their (or HR’s) files. I think she recommends that you also have a plan for wrapping up your ongoing projects or transferring them to others. But I could be misremembering.

      1. VictoriaQ*

        That sounds about right. And I think my company has a letter of resignation template thing? Basically to verify that last day is day and that I wasn’t fired and whatnot.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      Actual letters are a thing of a past in most companies. Definitely talk to your manager direct: face-to-face is preferable but on the phone also works if you’re not able to meet directly. The last resort should be an email.

      As for exit interview, it really depends on you. I once was fully honest in an exit interview about why I was leaving because a) I didn’t need the reference as I was leaving the country and going into ESL teaching and b) I knew it would help my co-workers I was leaving behind. It wasn’t so much scorched earth as a thorough analysis of the issues that led me to leaving. I felt better for saying it, and I know my co-workers were grateful, but my boss/owner was defensive and this is the issue. They are going to hear what they want to hear. They will be able to justify every negative thing that you say as they did with your co-worker.

      So there are benefits to it, particularly here where you’ve already had one person make truthful statements, but it might have no impact at all. Weigh up how an honest exit interview will affect you and then make your decision based on that.

      1. Natalie*

        I left a job less than five years ago that did insist on a letter because they wanted something signed. So I printed out the email I had originally sent and signed it.

    3. VictoriaQ*

      Thank you guys for all your replies! I’ll be sure to do it in person and to probably have a lighter exit interview rather than an exhaustive one.

  51. Hawk*

    A couple weeks ago I posted about how it sounded like my coworker lied to a community partner on the phone and asked me and another colleague if her story sounded like something that had happened (a lost in the mail story).

    On the advice of others, I did talk with my manager. I told her that I was concerned, but I didn’t have facts, so I wanted to make sure, if I ended up being the one on the phone with the community partner, I was doing the right thing.

    Lo and behold, the thing lost in the mail was literally lost in the mail (unfortunately other things have been lost, too), and they had to figure it out. But my boss also appreciated that I spoke with her, as it highlights the huge issue of the fact that there are three of us sharing a space that was meant for one (an office the size of a large walk in closet). Hopefully someone, somewhere, will finally recognize that space is needed.

    1. Shiny Swampert*

      Oh wow really?! I remember your post, I didn’t see this coming that it was genuine!

  52. Lentils*

    Hey everyone! My apologies if this has come up here before, but I’m wondering if anyone has techniques or advice about how to address “casual” racism if it comes from a superior? My wife B works with an assistant manager, K, who uses “cutesy” talk that slides into racist caricatures. She will say “sank you” and “bress you” in an exaggerated “cute” way, and sometimes deliberately butcher Spanish words. K is white, as is B, and there are multiple employees of color, some Spanish-speaking, who sit within earshot of K’s office and have probably heard these comments. However, there are no Asian employees and other coworkers have started to say “sank you” as well.

    B is really uncomfortable with this “cute” casual racism, obviously, and also concerned about how K would come across if a customer were to hear her, as they do work in customer service via phones (and sometimes in-person). But because B’s one of the lowest-ranking people in the office she’s not sure how to address the issue. The head manager, R, has been receptive to concerns about language use before: K and several other employees used to routinely use the r-word during customer interactions (“my apologies, I’m just being kind of [r-word] today”). After B emailed him to express her concern that it was getting thrown around the office a lot, R asked that everyone stop using it, and K did stop. However, B worries that she might come off as “oversensitive” if she mentions this new trend of K’s, or that K will feel like she is being targeted.

    Anyone have any advice or experience with this?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Visibly grimace and wince when K does it again in front of her. K will either ignore it but note the reaction (and thereby not scoring her “cute” or “amazing” points) or ask what’s up. When asked what’s up “I’ve noticed you doing the accent thing a bunch lately and it’s getting to be often enough that I’m concerned it might slip out where customers might overhear. [Pause] I think it’s probably better not to be in the habit of doing that.”

      Or, just go ahead and e-mail R again, ask that he leave her name out of it, but that maybe what K needs is an overall conversation about derogatory language in general and not just specific words. It would be fine for K to feel targeted because she’s making herself a target and she should feel like if she slides into this carp again in some new form, she’s going to get called out on it. It’s okay to make it clear to her that the office is not a place where she can be comfortable doing this stuff and that people will not just let it go – particularly at a manager level.

    2. Marny*

      The way I tend to deal with this kind of casual racism is to act like I’m confused by it and ask questions. Like, “What does ‘sank you’ mean? Why are you saying ‘thank you’ that way?” And keep forcing them to explain why it’s funny or how it’s a joke. It typically makes them think a little bit more about it and embarrasses the person enough that they realize it isn’t cute nor funny. But you have to pull off sounding sincerely confused.

      1. YetAnotherUsername*

        This is my favourite way to deal with meanness disguised as jokes, whether directed at me or someone else. Ask them to explain the joke. Jokes not funny if they have to explain it. Keep asking them to explain all the mean jokes and they will eventually stop saying them.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I would have no problem sounding genuinely confused here since I don’t actually understand what her pronunciation is supposed to mean. Is it supposed to be mocking Asians? Because I work with lots of Asians, and none of them pronounce thank you that way.

        1. YetAnotherUsername*

          Is it possible it started out as an in-joke with someone else based on a tv show or something they used to watch, and then became a habit?

          I have seen that happen before and done it too. It can get to the stage where you say something to someone that makes complete sense to you and they are just looking at you going wtf? Then you have to explain oh sorry that’s something my friends and I say to each other it doesn’t make sense if you’re not a fan of X.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        A good approach for that one in particular. Growing up in the 70s, mom bought Sanka brand coffee and my punster dad would say “Sanka you” if she brought him a cup. And once in a while I still hear myself say it. I’d be mortified if I were doing it at the office.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      I would treat the casual racism talk where she slides into caricatures the same way I would if she started using baby talk with me: stare at her, say ‘excuse me?’, and hope that prompts her into using her normal voice. If she continues, tell her that you don’t understand her when she talks like that. However, it might be beneficial to be honest with her.

      “K, I need to tell you that when you talk like that you come across as racist and it makes me uncomfortable.”

      It’s all the more important to try and change this because other co-workers have picked up on it (and isn’t that swell?). Your wife might have better success at talking to the co-workers because they’re peers.

      As for the r-word. Call it out there and then.

      “Woah, K, that’s really offensive. People don’t use that word any more because it’s a very negative slur on disabled people.”

      1. Freebird*

        I have to ask, why is ok to soft-pedal when it comes to “casual” racism (not a thing, btw. Racism is racism, period.), but it’s ok to be more direct regarding the r-word? And this is not just directed towards you. A lot of the comments on this thread are advising the same.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          I don’t agree with it, but generally I’ve heard this explained one of two ways: either it’s something that’s coming up where they think the person has learned the habit without thinking through its origins – and thus the desire to soft-pedal comes from assuming a lack of malice and thus wanting to be softer with the offender OR when the offender somehow has plausible deniability so there’s a desire to somehow make the behavior stop without causing conflict.

          1. Freebird*

            I prefer to call a thing a thing. If it’s racist, then say so, whether there’s malicious intent or not. The world would be a better place if more people would be direct in shutting down racist comments. It’s not even necessary to be emotional. Just be matter of fact and say, “Hey, that’s racist. Please don’t use that accent again.”

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      I deal with this constantly at my office (Company is based in the US but is a wholly-owned subsidiary of a Japanese firm, so there is a non-zero amount of accent “jokes.”
      I’ve started picking my battles but it usually boils down to a combination of the advice above: either keep asking what they mean or, in my case, respond with “Really?” instead of visibly grimacing. Once, and only once, have I gone so far as to very assertively say, “You know my wife is Japanese-American, right?”

      As to [r-word], I will occasionally pull out the “I’m an English major” card and respond with “The situation can be awkward, backward, childish, dorky, foolish, goofy, hokey, ill-advised, laughable, mindless, nonsensical, opaque, peculiar, ridiculous, sophomoric. thoughtless, unwise, way-out, or zany and you chose [r-word]? Get a better dictionary.”

    5. Super Pansy*

      I’ve had work friends say things that are casually racist in a similar way – and it’s usually because, to be honest, they were white and just never thought about it before.

      I would yell “You’re being racist again!” until they figured it out and got better, because that made sense for our relationship, but I DO think it is important that B say something to K. I feel like approaching it conspiratorially can be disarming – like, “Oh geez, I just thought about X over hearing you say that – doesn’t it sound kind of like you’re making fun of the way they talk? Oh gosh, I’d hate for anyone to think you’re racist.”

      I also think K is more likely to listen to B – and think B is not being oversensitive – than she might be to one of the POC they work with.

  53. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

    Had the weirdest management situation in my life yesterday. I have a report* who always takes calls and texts during meetings, so I sat her down to explain that in our office meetings are no phone zones for everyone. She replied, in a sort of dewy-eyed, lovestruck manner (kind of an odd look on a 45+ish person), “Oh, it is just that if I don’t immediately reply to my husband he gets really angry. He’s just so devoted! Isn’t it sweet?” Kid you not, my jaw literally dropped (as in I’m lucky there are no flying insects in my building) and for 1-2 seconds I couldn’t even formulate a reply. My mind immediately went to abusive situation, but she seems so happy about it and that I should also see the romance, that it threw me. I eventually managed to throw together, “Be as it may, we don’t allow phones in meetings. Please never do it again.”

    Her response was weird, right? Or was I overly shocked over nothing?

    *Why, oh why? This job was supposed to be non-supervisory and the extra $$ only partially makes up for it

    3. PB*

      Yes, her response was weird, and no, you were not overly shocked. This is honestly deeply concerning, and you’re right to think of potential abuse.

    4. animaniactoo*

      Your instincts are dead on. I know that’s not a lot of help other than to validate that you are not looney tunes yourself, but yeah, it’s a problem. Honestly, I think the shocked look was probably a good thing as it at least allows you to convey “this is not normal” without having to dig into it, and she can interpret it as she wants (today and maybe years down the line when she looks back at this moment and thinks to herself “Danger probably wasn’t shocked for the reason I thought s/he was….”

    5. LCL*

      You did way better than me. I would have tended to go from zero to full rage immediately. ‘What? How dare he? He has no right to demand that, and he is not running this office’. etc etc etc. Which is exactly what she doesn’t need when she has someone like that in her life, one more rager telling her what to do. Your instincts are right, her response is really unsettling and shocking.

    7. DAMitsDevon*

      Yes, definitely weird. Even if she seems happy, it could be the “honeymoon” phase of an abusive relationship. Don’t let that stop you from enforcing workplace rules, but also keep an eye out for more red flags coming from her husband.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        You know, I hadn’t thought of that. For some reason I had assumed a long term marriage, but, upon reflection, I have no good reason to think that. Your scenario makes sense.

    10. LGC*

      …is her husband a tech billionaire that may or may not be a vampire, has a room decorated in red in his house, and has been compared to a popsicle? Because this just sounds like fifty shades of NOT RIGHT.

      Okay, so. I can definitely see why you jumped there, and I’ll acknowledge that what she said was…not very woke, to say the least. Unfortunately, a lot of people are not very woke (I mean, I joke about Fifty Shades of Gray, and yet it’s sold millions and spawned a highly successful movie series), and while this is also really concerning to me, I don’t know if it’s a red flag by itself.

      Also, even if it’s innocent, that is just NOT a work appropriate reaction from her. I’m glad she loves her schmoopy bear husband, but that is just tmi for the workplace.

      Anyway. As for weird management situations, I mean…I walked into the bathroom last week and heard someone snoring loudly. They had also removed their shoes.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        OK, yours was definitely weirder and I laughed inappropriately hard. I am also glad the consensus is that this was weird and I didn’t over-react. As many of you mentioned, my mind immediately went to an abusive situation (with or without red rooms and popsicles) that is 50 shades of nope. I’m going to keep my eyes open and if she ever seems unhappy with the situation be prepared to steer her towards resources.

  54. Regional Work Culture?*

    Work culture question/s: I’m looking for info on general cultural differences across workplaces between the Northeast US & the South. I’ve lived on the border, but never in “the South,” & in this case it’s looking like North Carolina. Had a friend from NC tell me a while back that she could tell I’m a Yankee by looking at me, so it’ll be obvious to at least some folks.

    What general differences have folks encountered between cultures above & below the Mason Dixon Line that it would behoove a transplant to know up front when starting in a new office? The conversations about tea culture in offices in Great Britain was a good reminder to ask today.

    1. NC Transplant*

      It depends where in NC you are. Cities contain a pretty big mix of people. I moved here (research triangle area) after college over 10 years ago, and I really like it. It’s true that people will know, but most people won’t care. Once I weirdly had someone tell me that a hat I was wearing (a green tam) was “very yankee of me” and I’ve never figured out if it was a complement, an insult, or what.

      So I don’t have a lot of real work experience in the northeast, given when I moved here, but I’d say IN GENERAL (not everybody) people are friendlier, and chattier than I’m accustomed to. I briefly worked in an office in a more rural area and it was pretty much expected of me that I would chat with people for a bit instead of just asking the work-related question I had to ask and getting back to work. I haven’t found that in every office, but it was definitely A THING there.

    2. Applesauced*

      I moved last year from New York City to a city in the (Deep) South, and I previously lived and worked in Boston.
      To start, the pace really is different. My day-to-day work hasn’t changed much, but I have more down time than I did in the Northeast, and project scheduled have a little more fat to them.
      There’s more of a “one for all” kind of feeling, like people are looking out for me, or my bosses suggesting I tag along to observe meeting. Previously it felt like I had to advocate for myself HARD to get mentoring/get into office-wide programs.
      Work/life balance is real here, sure there have been some long days, but it’s not he-who-works-the-longest-is-the-strongest culture I felt back east.

    3. Alexander Graham Yell*

      Depends on the city, but I just moved from Charlotte and there are a lot of former Northerners down there! But in general I would say that people aren’t direct in the same ways – in fact, I wouldn’t call them direct at all, but it’s a very cultural thing where they think they’re being clear as day and as direct as they can but it doesn’t hit your ears the same way. There’s a lot more couching of criticism, I found – you have to really listen to what’s not being said to know what people are actually upset about and if you address what you’re upset about and clearly name it you can throw people off and come off as unnecessarily aggressive.

      1. Mimblewimble*

        Yes, totally. People are very friendly/chatty and expect others to be so as well. It is very common for complete strangers to strike up a conversation with you. People will routinely say hello or good morning to you as you pass them on the sidewalk, and it is considered rude to not reply in kind. Being given the cold shoulder is something I’m still getting used to in the PNW, even tough I’ve been here 3 years.

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      For amusement value:
      Currently living in Seattle. My former employer sent me to rural NC twice to visit a plant.

      Day one, lunchtime.
      Local: “So, you want local food or do you want something healthy?”
      Me: “I was hoping for some barbecue.”
      Local: “Oh, I thought y’all were vegetarians.”

      Day five, (I have had my visit extended and needed to have my pants cleaned. My jeans came back from the cleaners with pressed creases down the front.)
      Local: “Oh, that makes them dress jeans. You can wear those to church.”

      1. Mimblewimble*

        Also in Seattle, grew up in eastern NC and I have to say that your encounters were 100% spot-on.

    5. sacados*

      Native NC-er here.
      As others have said, it really depends on location. In areas like Charlotte or the Triangle there will be a very large amount of transplants from all over (growing up, people used to joke that Cary stood for “Containment Area for Relocated Yankees”) and there really shouldn’t be that big of a cultural difference.
      Other more rural or coastal areas — sure you might run into some but many parts of NC are not all that “Southern.”

      As far as tea goes — one thing to be aware of is that in restaurants, etc if you order an iced tea, it WILL be sweet unless you specify otherwise!
      Also, people in NC have no idea how to drive in the snow. It rarely snows around the Triangle, but I remember that people from further North would always get really frustrated by how everyone freaked out/started driving 10 miles an hour at the slightest sign of flurries.

      1. Alexander Graham Yell*

        Hahahaha ohhhhhh the complaints from people from Buffalo when people would freak out over 10 minutes of flurries.

    6. CallofDewey*

      I moved from New England to Florida and the biggest difference has been that the south is much more talkative and friendly! I’ve had to work pretty hard as not coming across as cold or too direct/blunt.

      The other thing is how people dress- since it’s so much hotter, people tend to be a lot more casual. I had to learn what “dress sandals” are and that it’s acceptable to wear them to the office with *ghasp* sleeveless shirts. Overall though, I really like the south and am happy here!

      1. Mellow*

        >I’ve had to work pretty hard as not coming across as cold or too direct/blunt.

        It sounds as though you aren’t in South Florida, which IS the South’s New England.

        To the OP: Look for people to talk about church and to regard you with suspicion if you don’t happen to go to church. Potlucks at work will be full of fatty foods. The people are no more or less nice than anywhere else. Look out also for a rather large swath of people who think they shouldn’t fund public schools because they don’t have children or grandchildren in school.

        And brace yourself for numerous confederate flags.

        In many regards, there’s the South, and then there’s everywhere else.

    7. Mimblewimble*

      I grew up in NC (30+ years), and there can be a very strong “us versus outsiders” mentality in some cities. Raleigh not so much, but Wilmington, yes. It can be difficult to “break in” or be taken seriously by managers and coworkers if you’re not from the are (and by “from” I mean that your family either goes 3 generations back i in that town, or you’ve been there longer than most people so they all assume your family has lived there for 3+ generations).

      Other things to know about NC culture: BBQ is incredibly important and people will argue passionately about the best way to serve it. Be prepared to be asked how you like your BBQ (my preference: Eastern style pulled pork with vinegar-based sauce).

      During March Madness people will take off work to watch the games. Or go to work and totally not work. I’m high school my math teacher once gave us busy work while he watched the Wake Forest game on tv.

      You will also be asked which team (Duke, NC State, or UNC) you support. No matter your answer you will make enemies.

      Be prepared to drive long distances to get anywhere: the state is long East-West, and on the coast there are so many rivers that you have to drive around.

      Hurricanes are not a big deal; wat h what the locals do and you’ll be fine. I went through many category 3 and 4 storms growing up on the coast … you just wait for the power to go out, listen to people on the radio talk about how windy it is, then wait for the power to come back on.

      Wine is huge in the state, no matter where you go. I highly recommend Duplin Winery outside of Wilmington.

      If you like beaches, the coast is mask e and you can go to the outer banks. I recommend Atlantic Beach, as no buildings are allowed on the strip so it feels like an actual beach.

      If you’re able to muster up some good natured self-effacing humor when people inevitably remark on your accent, then all the better. It’s a sure-fire way to endear yourself to the locals.

      Good luck.

      1. sacados*

        Lexington bbq will always have my heart. Yes my family has and will drive 5 hours out of the way to get some.
        Actual example: we were driving from Raleigh to the coast (about 3~3.5 hours normally) but instead we drove an hour and change west to Lexington first, in order to stop at the Honeymonk for lunch, before then driving back east again all the way to Morehead.

        1. Mimblewimble*

          That is some serious BBQ dedication! My favorite places to get BBQ were Moore’s in New Bern and pretty much any Smithfield’s :). My sister worked at Smithfield’s and she’d bring home Brunswick stew (sooo good).

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Long ago I heard a useful derailer : “I’ve never met a BBQ I didn’t like!”

      3. Mellow*

        “Hurricanes are not a big deal; wat h what the locals do and you’ll be fine. I went through many category 3 and 4 storms growing up on the coast … you just wait for the power to go out, listen to people on the radio talk about how windy it is, then wait for the power to come back on.”

        This is such irresponsible advice, and it’s disgusting anyone would actually pass it along. Hurricanes ARE a big deal, and many people die from them precisely because of such cavalier attitudes.

        Follow exactly what local and federal officials tell you to do, to the letter, no matter how inconvenient. If you have pets, it would be a good idea to locate shelters now that accept pets so that you won’t get caught off guard and get turned away should you ever need such a shelter. Like any weather phenomenon, hurricanes aren’t 100% predictable, and can change direction on a dime. And it’s not the wind that is the main problem. It’s flooding.

        Another way to stay safe? IGNORE people who tell you all you have to do in a hurricane is wait for the power to come back on.

        I can’t even…

    8. Lilysparrow*

      Lived all over the south, including NC, and also lived for years up north. A few generalizations:

      People wear more color and more patterns, both women and men. It’s not at all unusual to find a senior partner at a very conservative law firm, or a senior exec at a bank, wearing a seersucker suit with a pink shirt and tan or white shoes in the summer. Shorts aren’t acceptable in most offices, but they are nearly everywhere else.

      The pace of walking/movement and speech are slower. A normal pace up north is going to read as if you’re impatient or in a rush. Do not confuse this with the quickness of someone’s mind. They are conserving energy because your sweat will not cool you off when it can’t evaporate in the humidity.

      It’s very common to couch a request or instruction as offering a favor or asking advice. The classic example would be “Well, I’ll let you go – you must be busy.” This translates to, “Please go away, I am busy.” Watch for constructions like “Do you think we should…” or “You might want to…” These normally translate to “I think we should…” and “You should do this.” Whenever anyone offers you anything, run it through this filter first to see if they are actually asking you/telling you to do something.

      Greeting rituals are longer and more important, especially on the phone. Even a routine call to a stranger, like making a dentist appointment, will go smoother if you exchange “how are you/fine, how are you” before stating your business.

      I don’t think there’s any more inherent racism in the south than the north, but so-called “casual” racism is far more prevalent and socially tolerated.

    9. Hi Bob*

      I moved to NC from the northeast. The biggest surprises were how prevalent church going was (even other transplants had “church families”) and how Confederate imagery is everywhere.

    10. Regional Work Culture?*

      Thanks very much, this is all very helpful!

      Barbeque is wonderful, but I anticipate running into trouble with my preference for Memphis dry rub in NC…

      Ended up working all weekend, sorry to be slow getting back to you.

  55. Flying Solo*

    Due to a move, after years of working in a really tight knit group I’m now working alone for the first time and am starting to struggle with the loneliness. I had an opportunity to open a store and business in a field that I’m very passionate about, and have gone to school for, but wasn’t able to be a part of previously. While I’m thrilled to have this opportunity the social impact of being a one woman shop is starting to get to me. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to mitigate it? I’ve joined a local business network and engage on social media with a lot of similar (but not local) businesses but am unsure of how to keep my feelings of isolation at bay!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Lean on your friends and family to provide you the sense of community you sound like you’re craving. That might mean making sure you have friend-dates and meet ups scheduled most (all?) evenings of the week; setting up a book/cooking/fencing/whatever group so you; looking up fun (and possibly free) local events to invite folks to join, etc.

  56. Justin*

    School-and-work:
    I’m so frustrated with how useless my job feels. We are consultants to a government agency and that agency is incompetent, so our work feels pointless. It’s hard to stay motivated when my best work doesn’t get better results than sleepwalking it, but I still try. I’m looking around for something better, just venting.

    School:
    Just completed my first submission to a journal, no idea if I have a real chance of being published or not. My professors think so (and don’t seem to be be blowing smoke). But you never know. Still though, I’m only a year in and doing very well, so I wish I could escape my job to do the things I’m studying more directly in a full-time capacity. Hopefully this will at least be possible once I eventually finish school.

    1. no, the other Laura*

      Well…it’s a year and a half left to go on the government agency thing – then it’ll change, maybe? At least then you can re-evaluate?

    2. Holly*

      I empathize as a former attorney for agencies.

      Me: You should do W instead of X, as to avoid Y and Z.
      Them: We’re going to do X anyway because we don’t like W for BS reason (“it’s always been done that way!”)
      *Myriad of problems occur that I am responsible to litigate*

      It’s better to treat your job as a learning experience and emotionally separate from it. Then look for something new when you’re ready.

  57. Mezzanine*

    First ‘real’ job out of college and struggling super hard with attention to detail! What are your strategies for keeping track of everything?

    In my role, we have to compile a lot of data and manage large logistical schedules for events attended by 100+ people, and I find myself often letting little things slip through the cracks. I’ve been in this role for a year now and am frustrated that I’ve yet to find a good way to manage it all.

    1. Four lights*

      Some options: checklists for specific tasks, putting deadlines and reminders on your calendar, making to do lists, setting aside a time each week to review what needs to get done the next week, ask co-workers for ideas, maybe speadsheets to keep track of where you are on projects. Let me know if you want any more detail on these. For myself, I find it can take a while to find an organizational strategy, so just keep trying them out.

    2. Al*

      When I notice that I’ve been letting things slip on a task, I find it helpful to make extremely detailed notes of the steps in that process (or find my original notes from when I was trained). Then the next handful of times I do that task, I meticulously following those notes. It helps me retrain my brain that yes, all of those steps do matter. I would probably be insulted if my boss told me to do this, but since I’m choosing to do it on my own, I don’t feel resentful.

      Also, checklists with sub-lists of all of the steps. Not only does this ensure I don’t forget things, but I get the gratification of checking all those little boxes. :)

    3. Little Beans*

      What works for me is thinking through the logical implications of each thing. If I understand how all the pieces fit together, it makes it easier to notice if something is off or wrong. For example, if I know everyone has to be at big event from 4-6pm and then I see that someone’s schedule has an event at 5pm, that obviously has to be wrong. For data sets, sometimes I try to add things up a couple different ways to make sure that total still comes out the same each time. And just old-fashioned double checking – I sometimes open 2 screens side by side on my computer so I can just manually go through and check things.

    4. sacados*

      Check out various free online productivity tools like Evernote, Trello or Asana. Those can also be easily integrated with Gmail based systems and — depending on your work/organization style — can be super useful to keep track of to-do lists, project information, priorities, etc.

    5. Ursula*

      Organizational strategies are definitely good to look into (I use outlook tasks, checklists, flagging emails, spreadsheets, and handwritten notes myself, as well as double checks like “are there any rows missing data, are the values in these fields all values they’re allowed to be, is the % change for each row within the expected range,” that sort of thing) but the reality is, if you work with large amounts of data, you’ll make mistakes. This is actually something I tell every person I’ve hired – you will make mistakes, period. What’s important is having processes in place to identify them, fixing them if possible, and notifying everyone affected.

      I’m personally of the opinion that this is why Big Data isn’t ever really going to deliver on people’s expectations. It’s simply too much information for humans to be able to handle. So until fully developed AI can do it for us, data is never going to be as useful as business people want it to be.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        If you’re working with a spreadsheet for tracking, look at conditional formatting and data validation. Did you know you can filter by color?

        Data validation can be set to reject values outside the expected range. Examples: a Yes/No field can’t say “green”; dates must be current year, or whatever works for the field; quantity ordered field cannot be negative or exceed X. This helps prevent entry errors. You can even set a list of valid values that appears as a drop-down in the cells.

        Conditional formatting can be a different type of validation: highlight any value outside a specified range for review; have a bright background on blank cells, that clears when the cell is populated.

        Conditional formatting can also be used to color code due dates less than, say, Today plus 7 in one color (I used yellow); or due dates less than Today where complete (another column) equals False (or less than 100%) in red.

        Table filtering by color, or by percent complete or due date or priority (where those are column headings), can then be used to produce lists of things that need immediate attention. Even filter by several fields at the same time. Then just change or deactivate the filter to see everything again.

        Apologies if you already know all this. People so often focus on the Excel functions they use all the time and forget other features exist.

        If yours is a Microsoft environment, you might want to look into MS Project. I don’t like some of the functions – automatic resource leveling has messed up a lot of my schedules – but it’s useful for tracking dependencies or backing into individual task deadlines. That is, if I can’t start B until A is finished, and I know B will take X days and needs to be finished by Date Y, then task A must be done by Y minus X. If task D is 2 days late, when can we expect tasks E through M, downstream, to get done?

        Every system conversion I’ve ever done has lived and died by the Project Plan.

    6. Mezzanine*

      Thanks for all of the suggestions, everyone! I’m going to look into Outlook tasks a bit more, as well as beef up my notes from the last event so that I’ll have a record for last time. Sadly, I work in a high-security environment so we aren’t allowed access to cloud sites like Evernote or Gmail, so I’ll have to innovate within the Microsoft Suite and good old-fashioned handwritten memos. I’ll do my best!

    7. AnotherKate*

      I’m late on this, but after you’ve followed the above advice and made all your lists and ensured you have a process that will at least theoretically cover all the bases, I have found that this really helps me:

      Often times if I miss a small detail, it’s because I am rushing or bored, or for whatever other reason “looking ahead” to the next task. What has helped me more than any other thing is to remind myself: Checking this is your job. Spending time on this is your job. There is nothing else you should be doing right now, just This Thing in the process.

      It sounds kind of silly and even self-condescending, but it has really helped me stay present in my tasks so that I do each one well instead of rushing through and “finishing” more things, but finishing them poorly.

  58. Terrified*

    I leave in 10 minutes for the 6th interview for a position and I’m stone cold terrified. Not of the job, or getting the job, but leaving my current company and, more importantly, finding out that my home-grown experience at current job won’t translate at all to another company/industry and I’ll be a miserable failure. It’s actually for a second position, I think, as I got rejected for this position but was contacted again this week to meet with the hiring manager who is in town (he’s based abroad) and it doesn’t quite sound like the first person fell through, but I can’t say for sure.

    I’ve been with my current company for 17 years, my entire career, and I’d love to stay but interviewed for this job because it’s a senior manager level role with at least 20K a year more than I’m making now and our family circumstances really need that extra cash and my current company re-org’d recently and basically took out any development paths below director level, which sucks.

    I love my coworkers and really love being the person who knows all the things and am finally able to usher projects through that I’ve been pushing for for years and I don’t really know how I’ll handle going back to being the person who needs help finding the cafeteria and learning all new systems and who has no idea who to ask to get information on things and and and…

    Anyone else BTDT?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I’ve kind of been there. My tenure at my previous job (7+ years) isn’t as long as yours. Even though I miss my old job and colleagues, I’m glad I made the jump:

      1) Like you, my previous job had no room for advancement and growth.
      2) I have learned SO MUCH in my new job (6+ years is still new, right?) and I know I have developed a lot of skills I would no have otherwise.
      3) The new job required relocating about 2 hours away and I met two of my best friends here.

      It took a long time (2-3 years) before I felt like I was settled in again, but I have to emphasize I’m glad I made the transition.

    2. Zephy*

      I haven’t been in your exact situation, but…damn son, you’ve had six interviews and they haven’t decided whether or not they want to hire you???

      I can relate to being the Font of Knowledge at OldJob and then moving to NewJob and not knowing anything and hating that feeling, though. That sucks, I haven’t figured out a way around it.

  59. DaniCalifornia*

    I have an in-person interview Monday after having a phone interview last week that went well! I didn’t apply for this as it’s a new position being made, and the company reached out to my recruiter after learning about me and my flair for technology.

    I’ve read all the AAM articles and posts about good questions to ask the interviewer. But I’m kind of stuck because I can’t seem to translate them well into this new role. There’s no job ad, just a brief email about what they’re looking for. What are good questions to ask when the role is brand new? For context, it’s an Executive Asst role and I’d be supporting 5 partners, helping with scheduling, managing travel, etc…things they are all currently doing for themselves. They need someone to implement Concur and an expense reporting process, partner with marketing stuff, and “opportunity to make position their own and identify what the partners need.” Their own CEO is the most tech savy amongs them (which I think is awesome!) so I really want to wow them further and ask the most appropriate questions to gauge what they really need.

    On a more embarrassing note…any good ideas to avoid/prevent/deal with sweating during an interview? I seem to be running warm these days and nerves make it worse!

    1. Mezzanine*

      Questions –
      “Since this position is so new, can you talk a bit about the challenges it was created to address?”
      “What are the outcomes you’re most wanting to see from implementing Concur?”
      “What have been the biggest challenges and successes for your marketing strategy thus far?”

      For the sweating, I’ve found that wearing an undershirt can help ‘hide’ the effects of sweat, along with using a deodorant that’s also anti-antiperspirant. Arriving early to freshen up in the bathroom is also a basic but useful strategy.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        These are great thank you so much!!!! And I definitely plan to freshen up before. Its unfortunately at the end of a work day so I’m popping into my home first to change and whatnot.

    2. Goose Lavel*

      For sweaty palms, I always kept a napkin or tissue in my pocket that I held in my hand (inside my pocket) just prior to the nice to meet you handshake.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      For the sweat issue, you may want to speak to your doctor about hyperhidrosis if your sweat seems to be an abnormal amount or especially smelly. I was sweating through shirts five minutes after putting them on, so my doctor wrote me a prescription for Drysol – I have no problems now.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      You can still get old-fashioned “dress shields” at fabric stores. Or in a pinch, you can stick pantiliners inside your shirt.

      A dark jacket can be worth the extra warmth if it conceals pit stains. (If your face gets sweaty, though, it might not be worth it.)

  60. Fire for effect, over*

    Winner winner!

    Last week I wrote about my Executive Director and Development Director asking me to take over the office manager job, go full-time, and continue with my programs and development coordinator position. In the long run they want to cost save by not hiring for the office manager job instead hire for the third program position which we need.

    As they didn’t suggest a wage increase for the added responsibilities or timeline parameters I told him I would think about it over the weekend and return back with an answer. Then I came to AAM for opinions.

    I said: -an hourly wage increase of $3/hour which is nominal considering the scope of duties, a work-from-home day, and a 6-month timeline for them to evaluate, write a job description and have someone in place by February 1st. (although now I’m texting with some co-workers and it sounds like they’re going to bust that deadline which is their issue not mine).

    While it’s unfortunate that they didn’t offer any of this when they initially asked me however when I presented it to them they said yes to all of my proposals.

  61. Liz Lemon*

    My company is losing employees like crazy for a variety of reasons and it makes me feel a little bit like a crewman on a slowly sinking ship. This is my first job out of school and my field is highly competitive so I am trying to stick it out for the sake of building up experience, but it’s so damn hard to keep my head up most days. I am good at what I do so I’m not really looking for a total career change or anything. Just a slightly less insane office environment.

    1. Mel*

      Are you able to do good work? If you left now, would you be able to say “Hey future employers, here’s the awesome stuff I did while at this job”?

      If you have nothing to show for your time there, it’s better to leave sooner rather than later. Leaving an ill-fitting job a few months in, with nothing to show, isn’t ideal. Leaving a job after 2 years, with nothing to show, is a huge red flag for future employers.

      1. Liz Lemon*

        Well I’ve been here for a little over three years and I do have good work. But my industry is not set up where I can just quit and jump over to a different company doing the same thing. Job openings are few and far between, people hold onto jobs forever, and when jobs DO open up, there is crazy competition in my metro area.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Can you get job-related training? 6Sigma greenbelt, industry -specific certifications, college level classes, and hands-on software training programs can be good resume items.
      And if you hear of any process-improvement initiatives, get on board. If nothing else, you can reference the best-practices you learned in interviews: you want to work somewhere that is already implenting X.

  62. LGC*

    So, one of the short questions (one of the letters from Wednesday – it was the one about the boss that was concerned about her recently married employees) got me thinking: how do you deal with crowded offices? What have your successes been?

    I ask because first – the LW actually commented and mentioned that her desk was right next to one of the spouses. Second, I work in a crowded situation myself, and I’ve found that A LOT of annoyances in my office are fixed by thoughtful seating arrangements.

    1. LGC*

      And a couple of recent successes I had:

      1) one of my employees asked to switch desks because she felt claustrophobic. (My desk was facing hers at a right angle, and there is a column right behind her desk.) I actually rotated my desk setup 90 degrees so she had more space, and it made both of us happier.

      2) one of my other employees does not cope with heat well. His neighbors were constantly complaining about him. I ended up switching him and another employee, which seems to have calmed things down a LOT.

  63. Audra*

    Half a rant, half looking for advice. The co-owner of the company I work for stepped down and left over a year ago, which caused some fallout. I’m sure you can imagine all that goes into that — business plans, financials, personal relationships, whatever. Many of us had worked with her for several years. However, they made up, and now that co-owner is back a normal employee, holding no managerial position or C-suite title.

    BUT I notice that everyone still regards her with superiority. Of course she has a great expertise in our software, but my direct manager *always* goes to her when there is a problem, instead of addressing it with the team first. The team is 100% qualified to solve these problems on their own, and lots are easily solvable. Instead, we got a stern talking-to from the ex-co-owner regarding our work.

    Is this weird/awkward? How can I best manage myself in these situations?

  64. HRAwry*

    This is a bit long.

    I’m having trouble communicating with my Manager, and I want to know what I can do to improve our communication.

    I work in an investigation heavy role but also in and in an advisory capacity – I’m not a lawyer. My role is highly combative – where things are escalated, toes are stepped on etc.… it’s the way it works. I also want to include that I’ve asked several times for performance feedback and have been told there are no issues and no negative feedback. I was asked what type of other “things” I’d like to get my hands on, and my Manager was receptive to my feedback.
    I have worked in multiple positions in this area and have not had this experience before. I don’t want to say it’s solely (because it is 100% not) on my Manager. I think there is always room for improvement and have been racking my brain on how to improve our communication.

    I want to preface this by saying my Manager is a lovely person and I enjoy most of our discussions (we work remotely 100% of the time), and so we do not get face-to-face interaction. That said I’m having a some-what annoying problem: my Manager does not listen to me.

    When I call my Manager, I open my conversations with why I’m calling and what I’m looking for from her or if I’m just looping her in. For example, I’ll often say: “Hey Manager, I just had xzy investigation call, and it’s likely to be escalated. I wanted to keep you in the loop since you’ll probably receive a call from Grand-Grand Boss on Purple Team regarding xzy investigation…….”
    However, time and time again my Manager won’t actually answer my question, or in cases where I’m not looking for advice she’ll say, “I don’t know what type of advice you’re looking for.” I find this frustrating and I’ve even gone so far as to repeat what I’m looking for (or not looking for) while I’m explaining the situation.

    Recently, we had a conversation where she said, “I don’t know what you’re looking for. I don’t know what advice to give you,” and I said, “As I said, I’m not looking for advice – I was told that the matter would be escalated and that you would be brought in possibly or the Grad Boss may be brought in. I didn’t want this to blindside you. It was an FYI.” Which I tried to say in a pleasant and clarifying tone – but I think my frustration outed me because she apologized later that day for her comment.

    I’ve tried several different ways to communicate with my Manager such as: limiting the information I’m giving, give a lot more information than necessary, send the information in an email (which results in a call) and opening with the ask or closing with the ask. Nothing has seemed to work, and I’m getting frustrated – on top of this she often interrupts and tries to anticipate what I’m asking for even though I’ve already told her the “purpose” of my call and therefore she ends up not answering my question and gives an answer that isn’t fully informed.
    I’m new to this role (just five months in), and I’m really frustrated.

    What can I do to better communicate here?

    1. CM*

      Opening with the ask was going to be my suggestion. You said you’ve tried this, but the example you gave above doesn’t actually begin with the ask (“Hey Manager, I just had xzy investigation call, and it’s likely to be escalated. I wanted to keep you in the loop since you’ll probably receive a call from Grand-Grand Boss on Purple Team regarding xzy investigation…….”)

      So I wonder if you need to be even more immediate and direct:
      “Hi Manager, this is an FYI only because there is a situation I want you to be aware of.”
      “Hi Manager, I’m calling for advice about how to handle situation X, and specifically what I need from you is confirmation that Y is the right approach.”

      If you haven’t, I’d also suggest having a higher-level conversation with Manager, saying, “I’d like to talk about our communication about work issues. When I call you, I think I’m being clear about the purpose for my call, but you often tell me you don’t know what advice I’m looking for. Do you have any suggestions about how I can communicate this better?”

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        At the end of your summary, just say, “Again, this is just an FYI for when this is escalated to you. All I need is X.” What you do may be complicated enough that by the time you’ve explained the situation, your disclaimer at the beginning of the call was washed right out of your manager’s memory buffer by the tidal wave of facts.

    2. Purt's Peas*

      Can you ask her? I think that’s the first step instead of trying new experiments. The things I’d ask are:

      1. Should you be prioritizing your FYIs differently–does she need to know when things are being escalated, or will she catch up with you on the context just before she gets pulled into a meeting? Does she not need to know every escalation right when it happens? I wouldn’t skip this question even if you think she should want to know.

      2. How does she want to receive FYIs? In email with a “FYI – No action required” label in the subject line?

      3. How does she want to receive requests for advice?

      The next step after that, I think, is going to be reining in your frustration when she does what she usually does–I think that’s probably bringing you both up a little closer to boiling. If she says she doesn’t know what type of advice you’re looking for, “This is really just a heads-up. Should I send you the info another way?” or if she interrupts with a less informed answer, “That’s good to know–in this situation, x and y are the case. What do you think about z, considering that?”

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Just throwing out a wild guess here – is it possible that she’s not hearing/retaining what you’re telling her at the beginning of the call? If she’s involved in a task, and you say “I want to keep you in the loop on something,” maybe her mind skips right over that part. If that’s a possibility, what if you said “I have a call that’s just FYI, I don’t need advice (as you’ve been doing),” but then added “is this a good time to talk about it, or do you want to call me when you have a chance?” I just wonder if her distracted brain is jumping immediately to “problem identified!” and she’s completely glossing over “nothing to solve!” Especially since you say she anticipates what you’re going to say.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      My manager can also be this way. Sometimes I feel I give too much information.
      You say you’re calling. Would it make sense to email first? With an email you can be more abrupt and use bullets to convey the information quickly.

      Subject Line: FYI: Teapot Investigation will be escalated to Code Red
      Body: I just had Teapot Project investigation call, and it’s likely to be escalated. I wanted to keep you in the loop since you’ll probably receive a call from Grand-Grand Boss on Purple Team regarding Teapot investigation.
      Call me if any questions regarding Teapot Project Investigation.

        1. tangerineRose*

          I agree about email. Also, as well as using FYI in the start of the subject, I’d use FYI in the start of the body of the email.

    5. Ms. FS*

      I have a manager that complains that she doesn’t always know what I want from her. I also work remote and rarely see them in person for our checkins. So I write her an email with regularly ocurring items and their updates. I use color coding to have FYIs, Questions, and Discussion items. It goes like this:

      Black (FYI) – Investigation XYZ has been escalated
      Blue (Question) – Can you tell me when escalated investigation has been closed?
      Orange (Discuss) – Can we strategist how to deal with investigation x given abc conditions?

      Then we use this list to go from during our phone call checkin. It keeps it on time and I mainly get what I need from her and her from me.

  65. gbca*

    Manager in finance here. I have promoted two employees. Our company has a standard 7.5% increase that HR recommends for promotions. However, the department leader ultimately has discretion. One of the employees I promoted had been underpaid, so I asked HR to pull the salaries of people at his new level and set him at the 25th percentile of that group, which was more like a 13% raise. My boss was on board and since she owned the budget she had authority to approve. I think HR had to approve, but since I had a data-based approach I was able to justify it.

    Every company is different though and it is entirely possible HR or other executives may be able to block a larger increase. But if all the finance leadership truly believes you deserve more and there are no internal equity issues, honestly I think it’s a little BS and them hiding behind the cloak of “the powers that be”.

    2. ACDC*

      Agreed completely. My favorite response to this is “it’s not in the budget.” I work on the budget so I would know better than anyone if that statement were true (usually it isn’t).

  66. Justme, The OG*

    I had a phone interview for a job the other week and I was not selected for an in person interview. I am so relieved! It’s a well known company with a good reputation but it rubbed me the wrong way that they wouldn’t disclose a pay range at all for the position but instead only wanted to know what I expected to be paid (I used my standard response that it would depend on the entire benefits package but that I would like to know their range).

    1. irene adler*

      That’s what I’ve been experiencing here in Calif. since the new law re: cannot ask salary history was approved. I’m cut off every time I ask about hiring salary range with the same question: “what salary are you expecting for this position?”.

      1. Justme, The OG*

        “I’m expecting the salary range that you are willing to pay. What is that?” It’s so frustrating. I’m definitely not giving a range because (1) I don’t know what to expect from that job title, searching was no help, and (2) I’m not going to give a range in case I lowball their expectations of a range.

      2. ginkgo*

        I recently found out that the same California law also requires employers to provide the job’s pay range on request, so that’s… strange and not good that you’re getting that reaction! I’ve almost always had recruiters be forthcoming when I’ve asked; a few have claimed to still be working out the range internally but have at least given a ballpark number. Only one recruiter told me he couldn’t share that info, and he actually ended up following up with the range by email shortly afterward – I’d just been handed off to him from someone higher up, so I’m thinking that he mentioned the conversation to his boss afterward and she told him that they could get in trouble for not providing the range.

          1. irene adler*

            Update for the law: AB2282

            https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2282

            “An employer, upon reasonable request, shall provide the pay scale for a position to an applicant applying for employment. For purposes of this section, “pay scale” means a salary or hourly wage range. For purposes of this section “reasonable request” means a request made after an applicant has completed an initial interview with the employer.”

      3. sacados*

        I was gonna say… See gingko’s reply below.
        In California employers are now legally REQUIRED to give a salary range if you ask for it. Maybe some people aren’t (or are pretending not to be) aware of it, so you may have to say something like “It sounds like you may not be aware but California actually requires employers to disclose a salary range upon request!”

        1. irene adler*

          Not quite; AB2282 was enacted to clarify this.

          “An employer, upon reasonable request, shall provide the pay scale for a position to an applicant applying for employment. For purposes of this section, “pay scale” means a salary or hourly wage range. For purposes of this section “reasonable request” means a request made after an applicant has completed an initial interview with the employer.”
          You have to at least completed an initial interview before the employer is required to divulge the salary range.
          The complete text:
          https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2282

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I would think this is the section that would be more relevant to this situation:

            (i) Nothing in this section shall prohibit an employer from asking an applicant about his or her salary expectation for the position being applied for.

            An “initial interview” doesn’t seem to be defined in the linked amendment (unless I missed it, which is possible), and I would think a phone interview would count.

      4. fhqwhgads*

        My understanding of that CA law is that it requires employers to give the range when asked (there’s some bullshit about being a qualified candidate or something but if you’re at the stage of phone screen, you are one. If you’re calling before applying at all they are likely OK to refuse to disclose). So if you’re in a phone screen and they respond that way, they’re not following it.

  67. ACDC*

    I have my annual review next week and I am really hoping for a raise other than a cost of living increase. I have grown a lot in the past year and have taken on a lot more responsibilities. What should I know before going in to this conversation? Any tips for negotiating a raise? I have never done it before and am a little nervous.

    I am also prepared that I will not get what I am hoping for, in which case I will likely start to look for new opportunities because my current salary is about $10-$15k less per year than the norm for my position/experience level in the area.

  68. Watry*

    Tl;dr How do I start presenting my work to get out of public-facing positions?

    I’ve been working in direct customer service positions for about 6 years now (retail, call centers, now a public facing records position in county government). I can’t do it anymore. It’s gotten to the point I twitch at the sound of a ringing phone. Turnover is high in this department, I’ve already jumped from #7 to #4 since January in terms of seniority. There’s no real chance for advancement, and despite the department-wide raise coming in October, raises are about once a decade. I’m also planning to go back to school to chase the degree I wanted originally, though I had to change majors due to chronic illness.

    My issue is that I’ve been doing this too long and also apparently I’m pretty good at it, according to my managers? It’s all I can get hired for. How do I present myself so I don’t get “oh, we wanted more experience but we have this customer service position open”?

    1. Alexander Graham Yell*

      When I wanted to get out of customer service, I started networking with departments I interacted with regularly – especially ones that saw me as somebody who helped solve problems. I let them know I was interested in what they did, so when I started applying for openings there it usually got me at least a foot in the door. Of course, that’s if you’re willing to stick it out with your current employer for a little while longer.

      1. Watry*

        I’ll probably just be transferring within the county. I have type 1 diabetes and these benefits are too good to give up.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Is there some kind of county department that performs customer service audits? If so, given your background, you could potentially move over into an auditing role. I was offered an auditing job a few years back when I wanted to get out of external customer facing roles (didn’t accept it) and the main reason was because I was kickass at dealing with difficult people, setting appropriate expectations, and solving problems quickly and efficiently.

  69. LizB*

    I’ve been having a BAD flare-up of my anxiety this week. Like, BAD BAD. Wanting to hide under my desk, sitting paralyzed with my heart pounding for hours kind of bad. A lot of it is the job itself, and I’m looking elsewhere, but I need to get through and keep doing a good job until that happens. Here’s hoping I can keep the flare-ups under control for long enough to not have a nervous breakdown…

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      You have survived 100% of previous flare ups and panic attacks. You can absolutely do this. It’s horrible in the moment but you know it stops after a while. And every day you’re a day closer to leaving (very best wishes for that search).

    3. Watry*

      More solidarity here. I’ve had three panic attacks this week, and I haven’t had one in about two years. We’ll each get through it eventually, but I know that’s no help in the middle.

    4. Shiny Swampert*

      Oh god I haven’t wanted to hide under my desk for a year or so but I remember how awful it is when you feel so exposed and vulnerable and can’t, just, sit under your desk.
      Things on my list of “how to survive when anxiety strikes”* include: water, generally keeping hydrated, fresh air (at the least I’ll do a circuit of my building), working from a meeting room or home if possible, eating a banana (it’s supposed to help; it may be placebo effect but I’m in favour of placebos), permission (from me to me) to get takeout for tea when I get home if that’s easier than cooking. Oh, and telling someone I trust – I have a list of people who have offered support in the past and while I’ve never taken most of them up on it, it helps to know the list is there, just in case.

      *Literally a list saved on my personal drive in work

      1. LizB*

        Thank you! A lot of these strategies are ones I use, when I remember to use them. I should make them the background of my phone, or something. (Except the bananas, I hate bananas.)

        1. Zap R.*

          Eating something is key though. Something small and vaguely sweet. My go-to is arrowroot cookies.

        2. Shiny Swampert*

          I had the file linked from my desktop.

          If bananas don’t work for you you should definitely eat something different instead :)

    5. Willow*

      Are you on anything for your anxiety? My doctor prescribe a low dose of an anti-anxiety med for me a couple years ago, and it really helps. I still have some anxiety (especially when work is really bad), but I don’t have panic attacks anymore.

      1. LizB*

        I am, although I may go back and ask for a re-adjustment. My current dose has been working for a long time, but recently started to very much not work as well as work nonsense ramped up.

        1. Joielle*

          I’m not sure if this would work with your current meds, but I take a low dose of beta blockers (propranolol) just for the physical symptoms of anxiety and it’s done wonders. I just take them as needed – I feel the pounding heart coming on, I take a pill, and within a half hour it’s stopped (or at least subsided quite a bit).

          Sorry if this advice is too specific to be useful, I’ve just found them to be so helpful I always mention them in case it might be an option. I’m sorry you’re struggling – I’ve been there!

          1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            I take a reasonably high dose of propranolol for the physical symptoms of anxiety (arrhythmia and hypertension). As far as I’m concerned it’s a wonder drug.

  70. TGIF*

    Is anyone else matrixed to another manager in another area of their business, and if so, how do you deal with conflicting/overwhelming expectations?

    I currently work in a subsidiary of a business. My main boss is in the same subsidiary, but my ‘secondary’ or matrixed manager works at the corporate level. The culture between the subsidiary and corporate is wildly different. At the subsidiary I’m incredibly independent, I make a lot of decisions, have a decent amount of leeway, and wear a lot of hats. This is how most people operate at the subsidiary and is the norm here. At the corporate level, I have none of that and find I’m constantly being jerked around due to the new management structure trying to decide what new path they’re going to go down. It’s getting to the point where it’s becoming incredibly burdensome and is effecting my day to day work at the subsidiary.

    It’s driving me mad, and I have no idea how to set reasonable boundaries. Corporate seems to think I’m their darling who’ll do anything for them, even after I’ve bluntly stated the subsidiary comes first. I know my main boss has my back (they’ve stated this before), but I feel I need to come up with a reasonable proposal first before I ask for help.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      It sounds like the two managers need to sit down and come up with a game plan for how to best divvy up your workload – this isn’t for you to handle really. I have a direct manager and a dotted line manager, for example, and before I even officially started, they got together and decided what areas of the business I was going to focus on and how I could best assist dotted line manager and his team during slower periods. They both work for the same company so don’t have that corporate/sub dynamic going on, but truly, it made a world of difference for my direct manager to set the expectation upfront that I’m her direct report so the work she assigns me gets my primary attention. Dotted line manager completely understands and has no problem with me telling him, “I’m working on some proposal sections that are shipping in two days – I’ll work on your stuff after they go.”

      Basically, your managers need to not only manage you but each other.

  71. Catherine de Medici*

    Update to my post about getting comfortable being picky about jobs: I did receive an offer from the not very telework-friendly office (only allowed once a week) and turned them down. I spoke to some people in that office and they tried to talk it up by saying management was usually supportive if you needed it in extreme circumstances like needing physical therapy a couple times a week. But, in my opinion, that is the bare minimum of what telework should be offered. I wouldn’t ask my current boss to telework for physical therapy, I would just say here are the days I need to telework. Commutes are so long in my city that you need at least half a day or more just to go to an hour long doctor’s appointment. I also learned this office has its staff meetings on Friday afternoons, which goes against our flex-time policies, as well. As long as I have 80 hours per pay period covered (with work or credit time/vacation) and cover core hours, my boss doesn’t get to question if I want to just walk out the door at 1 pm on Fridays. Which I have done because I wasn’t being productive and I always work extra hours when I telework just so I can do that.

    In other news, we have a new hire in my section and she is super clingy. Constantly asking each of us to spend time with her on the weekends and after hours when she just started a couple weeks ago. We are not friends, I am not going to a movie/concert with you during my free time when I live an hour away and have a dog to take care of. Also, my section is full of introverts, we might go out to lunch a few times a year and enjoy chatting in the office but that is it. She’s very nice and I’m trying to be understanding but she is draining a lot of my energy with all of the requests to hang out. If anyone has any good scripts, I’d welcome them.

    1. Transitioning-ish*

      For the new hire, my first reaction is just to keep it simple: “I won’t be able to join you. Have a great time!” Change the subject if necessary if you can’t otherwise physically exit the same space.

  72. JustaTech*

    A rant/wail with a question at the end:

    My office has been undergoing a lot of change recently, not in our work but in the physical space. We’ve renovated the building and compressed the number of floors. The whole office area, and most but not all the labs, have been re-done. This was needed, it was dingy and inefficient.
    But.
    There have been a lot of changes to the way we’re supposed to work that have come along with this renovation that are really hard to take.
    To start, the staff wasn’t consulted about what we want/need from a work space, so equipment we use was removed (and replace with something worse or not replaced at all) and everyone was put in “nice open office areas” with “so much light!”, when a lot of us need quiet to work, or the ability to have spontaneous conversations without disrupting everyone around us. The light has already been an issue (mostly resolved) because some people have sensitive eyes.
    But, I get why you don’t ask everyone’s opinion when designing an office, you’d never get anywhere because everyone wants something different.
    The issue is that, now that we’ve moved into our new space, there are suddenly all these rules about how we are supposed to inhabit this space that feel very heavy-handed and frankly infantilizing.
    No microwaves or toasters anywhere but the new lunch room (on the floor with the fewest people, that won’t be done for months). No eating space on one whole floor, so it’s your desk or nothing (and maybe we’re not supposed to eat at our desks?). No re-usable plates, cups, bowls, or silverware until the lunchroom is ready, because the dish drying rack is ugly. (There are no paper bowls, so if you brought a can of soup you’re SOL unless you’ve hidden away a bowl.)
    You must have permission to hang anything on the wall, even by your desk.
    Everything must live behind a cabinet door, even if that makes safety gear less accessible.

    But most of all, and the thing everyone is struggling with, you may not reach out directly to fix any of the problems that have come up in this renovation, you must only go through your boss. For everything.
    Desk position is so bright your serious eye condition has flared up painfully? Don’t use the email we made (just for this kind of issue), ask your boss to do that to ask to have you moved.
    Missing sanitary supplies in the bathroom? Ask your boss to ask to have that fixed. (My poor boss wailed at that, mostly in jest but not entirely.)
    Missing essential lab functionality? Don’t ask for help and then follow the procedure yourself when the people who should do it are totally overwhelmed, just create an unsafe situation until they have time.

    Suddenly we’re not supposed to reach out to anyone for anything, even non-move-related stuff, even essential business functions, without going through our boss. (Who thinks this is insane BS.)
    Yesterday I asked a question about what color something was supposed to be and got yelled at by my boss^3 for asking someone else to do my project for me (didn’t ask for that at all). I honestly nearly cried.

    So my question is: can workplaces come back from a sudden case of hierarchy-itis? We’ve always had problems with silos, but this sudden “everything must go through proper channels, but we won’t tell you what those channels are” is really really hard to take.

    1. Birch*

      Ugh, I don’t have good advice but I feel for you. I think this kind of hierarchy/power-focused micromanagery comes from insecurity. It sounds like the bosses are going to get tired of being asked about every little thing, so maybe it will shift back to giving you more space and independence!

    2. no, the other Laura*

      Yes, you can definitely use Malicious Compliance on this one: everything goes through the hierarchy? Cool, EVERYTHING will go through the hierarchy. Every petty little dinky thing will go through it. When the SVP’s inbox has been flooded with 20546y205846ty2p078h emails per day about the ice maker, the gel imager, the tampax, the tissues, the eyewash station, the location of at least 10 people’s desks and a partridge in a pear tree, he will get tired of it and tell you to go back to addressing things directly.

      Have been through this sort of nonsense many times. It goes in cycles, like this:
      1. Some major change is planned
      2. Everyone hates the major change for various reasons.
      3. The SVP doesn’t wanna hear the whining, the decision is made and he wants everyone to shut up about it, or at least minimize the whining. Therefore everyone will complain to their bosses, who will complain to their bosses, so the maximum number of daily complaints in the SVP’s inbox = number of *direct* reports, right?
      4. Wrong. Oh, so wrong. Middle managers can compile infinity lists of “just for your awareness” emails. That’s like 1/3 of my job, “FYI this happened…”
      5. SVP snaps and says he doesn’t want to hear ANY more about it, just HANDLE IT ALREADY. New rule: handle things directly.

      Repeat as needed for the next big change…

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh you know!
        I also found out that at least part of this is inter-department warfare, so I know how to approach that part at least.
        VerySeniorPerson is way, way, way too into the “clean lines” of modern design, you know, the kind that looks great as long as there are never any people, ever? they hid all the lab coats in closets (on hangers!) rather than have coat hooks “cluttering up” the hallway.
        Hopefully something will come up and they’ll get distracted and we can go back to being people with stuff (who knew science is full of paper?) and not models in a furniture catalog.

    3. Free Meerkats*

      “just create an unsafe situation until they have time.”

      Nope. If it’s unsafe, the job doesn’t get done until the safety issue is solved. If they say “Do it the unsafe way”, request that in writing and refuse to do it anyway. Then you have them by the bollocks, at least where safety is concerned. If someone decides to go ahead and do it the unsafe way, you have proof the company knew it was unsafe and went ahead, anyway.

  73. Zap R.*

    Any advice from other women on how to break out of the Admin world? I really don’t want to be stuck in a high-stress pink collar job where I’m paid next to nothing and treated like crap forever.

    1. Shiny Swampert*

      I did an open university course (in the UK) in a field I was interested in and then applied to a tangentially-related job. I’d been a secretary/PA for the vast majority of my career, 20 years or so, but I was done. The qualification wasn’t necessary but apparently really stood out in the application, as did my enthusiasm. (Apparently even mentioning my kid helped as I was clearly really enthusiastic to work it round him). I have finally found my niche and I love it. Good luck!

      1. Zap R.*

        Thank you! There is a course that I could take in my city that would allow me to do this – I just need to find a job that pays enough for me to afford it.

      2. YetAnotherUsername*

        I was also going to suggest getting some sort of qualification in a field other than admin.

        1. cheapeats*

          As an admin- what kinds of things do you? Are you public facing? Do you help coordinate company events? Do you routinely smooth the way for others around you and write up processes that make it easier the next time around? I have worked with many admins over my years in engineering and most have graduated out of admin and into technical or finance roles within the company. You have to evaluate the skills you’ve learned as an admin and frame those in the context of a job you’re interested in.

          1. YetAnotherUsername*

            I know a cleaner and a security guard who did courses in autocad and IT respectively and got promoted to technical drawing and it departments.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      Do you have a skill you could work a side-hustle with on a freelance basis?

      That can give you some connections and experience in a new direction.

  74. Birch*

    Seeking some simple and some not-so simple advice.

    1. Anyone have scripts for conveying the idea to my boss that Ok, I will do things her way because I simply don’t have the mental or emotional energy to fight her on it anymore.

    2. What advice has helped you make big decisions about your career? I’m starting to feel like I might need to leave academia. The stress of competition and working for a PI who is backstabby, manipulative, emotionally unstable, a terrible manager and communicator and clearly doesn’t care about the vulnerable population we work with has given me a bad case of burnout. I want to do something meaningful with my life, but I really enjoy the actual research part of being a researcher. I also enjoy teaching and creative work. Has anyone here left academia and found something that uses your skills but is more fulfilling?

    1. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

      For 1, I default to, “okay, sure. Sounds good.” Repeat as necessary.

      1. valentine*

        conveying the idea to my boss that Ok, I will do things her way because I simply don’t have the mental or emotional energy to fight her on it anymore.
        This isn’t a good thing to convey. Sure, stick to your sphere of influence, but this is aggressive and possibly insubordinate. If it’s a safety or legal issue, you’d have other recourse, so, why do you need to fight? What if you do it her willfully obtuse way and move on?

        1. Birch*

          In a nutshell, because I don’t think it’s a good way to do it, and it’s also my reputation and my career on the line (e.g. in the final publication).

          1. SciDiver*

            Depending on where you are in the authorship line up for publication, you might be able to push back more strongly. If you’re the first author (or maybe even the second depending on how many people are on it), you could say something like “I have some serious reservations about using the Fergus protocol, specifically because it doesn’t address issues like X and Y, and those are pretty central to the project. The Wakeen method is a much better fit for what we’re trying to accomplish, and it also has advantages like Z. I might have missed something, but I don’t feel comfortable moving this forward until we figure out how to address X and Y, and I don’t see a way to do that under the Fergus protocol.”

            I’ve been dealing with this recently from a co-author who wanted to do analysis in a way I had considered but then rejected because there was a better method available, but he didn’t want to do it my way and wanted to switch all our analysis as we’re writing up our findings. Felt like a ridiculous argument to have but I’m glad I did it.

    2. Al*

      1. If it’s important to you to concede without actually expressing agreement, I would go with something like, “In the interest of moving this project forward, I will do (X-thing that she suggested/demanded).”

      Otherwise, “Okay, I will do (X-thing that she suggested/demanded).”

    3. SciDiver*

      Depending on your area of research, there might be a lot of options to move to non-profit orgs or other 503(c) work. It sounds from your post like you work in a research lab now (maybe in a grad program or post-doc?), and your mileage will vary so so much from lab to lab. The last lab I was in was really a horrible experience, management and communication were awful, and turnover was really high. I didn’t realize how miserable I had been until I was out, so don’t discount how much the environment you’re in can make you question your career! That being said, it’s notoriously difficult to have a long-term career in academia, and lots of researchers continue doing research outside of academic work. I’d tap into your network for this one and get in touch with people who work in your field outside of academia and talk to them about how they got there. That will hopefully offer some reassurance.

    4. Cedrus Libani*

      I worked for a bad PI, burned out, and have since left academia. Some thoughts:

      You are emotionally invested in your project. It’s hard not to be. This is your baby. You want to see your project go out into the world and shine.

      But it’s time for a hard look at the realities. You cannot put your name on the paper your PI wants you to write, because that would involve actively misrepresenting your own research. (Perhaps your research is giving the “wrong” answers. That was my situation. I will assume you’re talking about something worse than being forced to use outdated methods.) Your PI insists that the problem is all in your head, an illusion created by your limited grasp of the research and your inability to take direction. In these situations, even if you’re right on the facts (heck, especially if you’re right!) you cannot save the project. You need to save yourself.

      This isn’t giving up, by the way. It’s controlling what you can control. You can’t fix stupid, and you can’t fix bad faith. You can redirect your time and energy towards something that’s not doomed to fail…or you can keep throwing good time after bad. Your choice.

      You are going to get a bad reference. You probably won’t be able to publish your work. If you plan to stay in academia, be aware that you are now at a crippling disadvantage. You will have to start over, in whatever research group will have you, and then work your way back up until you outshine people who have been moving seamlessly from one prestigious, high-powered group to another. It’s not impossible, just approximately so. Those who attempt the impossible don’t have room for much else in their lives, and they don’t often succeed. Think hard about whether you want to do this.

      Industry is more forgiving. It’s a bigger world; my boss doesn’t know my former PI, and the company doesn’t allow reference checks. Publications aren’t expected as long as you can convince them that you know stuff.

      Don’t rely on the negative stereotypes about industry. It’s true that non-academic R&D jobs have a shorter-term focus. But you can use your brains and your skills to figure out how to make useful things that people need. I would strongly encourage you to reach out to your network; you probably have friends of friends who have made the jump to industry, and who would be willing to give you an honest perspective.

      Maybe this isn’t how you imagined your life would go. It’s okay to mourn that loss. But you can’t afford to get lost in mourning. This is a critical time. You need to get up, salvage what you can, and then kick the s*** out of Option B.

      As for me? I managed to get a key data set published. It was dumped in a no-name journal, as an undigested heap of numbers with basically no analysis, but at least it exists somewhere besides my own dusty hard drives. I used this data in my job talks and in my portfolio, where I was able to present the data in a way that I am proud of. I’m smart and I know stuff; I’m perfectly employable.

  75. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

    A junior staff member who is not in my department/team has a new boss in a newly-created department. The junior staffperson, in her mid-20s, says to her boss often that she’s super tired or checked out b/c it’s been a week or something. This is rubbing me SO the wrong way. Say that to your officemate, not your boss! Am I being an Old? Or is there a good way to approach her to say, “hey, careful how you come across.”?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I think I would expect that conversation to come from her manager. I’m not sure you should say anything unless you’re her mentor in some capacity?

      FWIW, if my DR said that to me, I think the first time I’d express sympathy, but repeated times I’d probably ask if they were okay or needed any assistance through the EAP, and depending on how they reacted to that either get them that assistance or tell them that constantly bringing that up isn’t a good image to promote.

      1. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

        Makes sense. We are friendly, but she hasn’t ever asked for advice so I’ll leave it. Thanks for the check! Also a great reaction to a DR in this situation.

        1. Close Bracket*

          No, don’t suggest to DRs, or anyone, that they need the EAP. That’s a huge overstep into someone’s personal medical care.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            The whole purpose of the EAP is as a resource for the employees. I don’t see anything wrong with letting them know it’s there if they need it. Can you please expand further? I’m pretty confused.

  76. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    Interview question:
    I’m applying for a promotional opportunity at my workplace. I’m basically perfectly qualified for it, except… one of the requirements is “membership in professional organizations.” I don’t belong to any.

    Simply put, the reason why I don’t belong to professional organizations is that I’d rather focus on my own library work than spend more time than I already do in meetings, traveling to stuffy conferences, or working on white papers/poster sessions. I will admit that I’m missing out big time on networking opportunities by not belonging to an ALA or PLA, but otherwise I’d rather spend the money that I would have spent on professional organization dues on other, non-work things.

    Is there a way to finesse this if I were to get an interview for the position and this topic were to come up? I’ve gotten consistently high evaluations here, have a good reputation for getting things done, and truly think I can do the job I’m applying for. I do keep up with trends in the library world. I just don’t belong to the actual organizations.

    1. irene adler*

      Can you join and be an inactive member? Thus you keep up by reading the website religiously.

    2. Me*

      oooo. Is it government? In my experience in government land if it’s required it means it’s required.

      Can you just join? Belonging doesn’t necessarily mean you have to go to things. I know it’s a hit to the pocket, but sometimes those things are like buying a new suit to interview in. Cost of promotion.

      Then you can say yes I belong to XYV and I spend a lot of personal time keeping up with trneds by doing blah blah blah.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        That’s a good way to look at it — it’s the cost of doing business. But anyone can say they’re a member. I don’t think there’s a way to really prove it.

        I would think they would want active involvement in the professional organizations, or what’s the point? But who knows?

        1. Mellow*

          I get a receipt when I pay my annual membership dues to the ALA, so not sure what you mean by no way to prove membership.

    3. merp*

      Ugh, when workplaces don’t cover dues, it is so frustrating that they ask for this. I can’t imagine that this is the most important consideration for them, but who knows. Maybe if you focus on the things you do that are similar to what people get out of professional assns (like keeping up with trends, or attending conferences, etc), then it won’t be an issue. Or the ways you’ve contributed professional service more in your workplace or locally than with these orgs.

      A tangent, but ALA is just kind of a mess these days in certain ways. I don’t blame you for not wanting to be a member.

    4. Matilda Jefferies*

      Is it an actual requirement, as in you’ll be screened out if you’re not a member? Or is it a preference? You may not be able to tell from the job ad, but I can’t imagine it would be a screening qualification for most jobs. I would apply regardless.

      But if it does turn out to be an actual requirement, would you be willing and able to pay the membership fee? You don’t have to go to the events or anything else, but this way you can say you’re a member if you need to.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        I think it’s a requirement — but I’m not sure how it’s verified and it’s literally the only requirement I don’t meet, so I’m definitely going to apply anyway. I’ll reluctantly join and pay the membership fee if it’s the cost of getting this job.

        1. Mellow*

          >I’m not sure how it’s verified

          You show the receipt you’re issued for paying membership dues.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      Why not just join? It’s sometimes a cost of being a librarian. I became active in my professional organizations (both state and national) after I was turned down for a job and told a big part of the reason was they didn’t see any involvement in professional groups. They wanted to see that I was committed and engaged in the field and they felt (rightly or wrongly) that professional involvement was critical. (This was an academic library job that was tenure track, so that was a big part of it. Your mileage may vary.)

      Personally, I would think about joining state organizations first, because A: they are a lot cheaper and B: they often meet in places you can drive too and you can take an afternoon from work to head down to see what’s up with them rather than having to travel or pay for a hotel room. The financial commitment is much lower.

      I also think you may find the time investment is just not that great. I am a mentor for a newly graduated librarian through a program and it takes maybe an hour a month? We send emails back and forth and I reviewed her resume and helped her with a cover letter and other things. It’s not a big time commitment. I like doing it. And I’ve been asked about it in job interviews. Even when I served on a national committee, it wasn’t that much time.

      1. merp*

        Going to second looking into state orgs or even local regional ones. You just get better payoff in terms of being involved, meeting people, etc, and it is cheaper. Plus, in some places (I’m in Texas), the state org and conference is big enough that I don’t feel like I need to worry about ALA.

    6. Casual Librarian*

      If you feel it’s required and don’t want to finesse your way through it, consider joining a state or regional association like MPLA which is very reasonable. ARSL (Association of Rural and Small Libraries) is also very cheap depending on your income level: https://arsl.info/membership/ (It’s also the most helpful association I’ve ever been a part of, and I use the listserv as a resource at least weekly.)

      When/if the question comes up, you can ask if membership is something that the library would pay for as a part of your professional development and continuing education requirements. Another possibility is to say that you are looking to join an organization that is closely aligned with the position, would they recommend X or Y? If you truly want to be honest, you can just say that you haven’t found a need for it yet in your professional life, but that you’re willing to look at options.

    7. post it*

      I would say that while you keep up in other ways (give some specific examples), the focus in your current position has been in serving your library/users but you would be willing to get more formally involved in the new role. Then I would ask more specifically about their expectations. Is it literally just being a member? Going to conferences? Presenting? Serving on committees? Do they fund any travel or expenses? This is something you want to know before you take this job. It may be that you have to get involved professionally to move up. I agree with everyone else about checking if there’s a regional or state org. The dues are usually much more reasonable and, having worked at smaller institutions, the conferences are way more applicable to my work circumstances than the national ones. It’s also easier to present or get on a committee if you have to do that.

    8. Dr. Anonymous*

      I agree it’s expected in the profession and that state associations can be a better deal. In a lot of areas of librarianship I don’t think you can go to the bathroom without having a committee opinion on the door sign and which wall to hang the TP dispenser on.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        “In a lot of areas of librarianship I don’t think you can go to the bathroom without having a committee opinion on the door sign and which wall to hang the TP dispenser on.”
        Haha. That’s my workplace in a nutshell, which is why I’ve been reluctant to sign myself on for even *more* committees and even *more* meetings.

    9. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      Thanks for the responses. The “professional associations” don’t specify that it *must* be ALA, which is expensive and in some ways kind of obnoxious, so I’ll look into state organizations, if it comes to that. It’s useful to hear that joining professional orgs is often just the cost of doing business.

  77. The Waiting Really is the Hardest Part*

    Aaaargh! Every time I read a letter to Alison from someone asking if it would be okay to email the hiring manager AGAIN, I roll my eyes a little think “Why do people do this? What possible good do they think it’s going to do?” And now I get it. I know that emailing the Hiring Manager is dumb, and I KNOW not to do it. I won’t do it but the urge to do it is crazy overwhelming! It’s like trying to resist the dark side of the Force!

    So for background, I am 35, have 10 years of experience in my field, a MS, BS, and 2 professional certifications in same, and am a (army) veteran. I am currently employed in a good job in my field, though not in my very specific preferred niche, but one that I enjoy a medium amount and get an average paycheck and decent job satisfaction out of. An opportunity recently opened up in a VERY well known organization in my field – a household name that everyone in the US and most of the western world would likely recognize. An old professor and long-time mentor of mine heard about the opening and recommended that I apply for it. She offered to put in a good word for me with the Division Director (the open position would report directly to them) who is apparently an acquaintance of hers and I thought “Why the heck not? I’ve got all the preferred qualifications and experience, and the worst thing that could happen is that they never call me back.” So I polish up my resume and put together a FANTASTIC (if I say so myself) cover letter and go through the initial application process.

    To my surprise and delight, I get a phone interview, and then a first-round in-person interview, and THEN a second-round interview. The second round interview was last Friday. It hadn’t even been an hour after I left the interview (I hadn’t even had a chance to follow up with the “Thank you for the opportunity, I enjoyed our conversation and am excited, blah, blah, blah… email), which I felt went pretty well, when the organization’s HR department called to let me know that I was a “finalist” and that they would begin checking my references right away. I was stunned and so excited. Until that moment, I hadn’t really let myself believe I had much of a shot. I mean, I know I’m good at what I do, and I know that I’m pretty well regarded by those who work and have worked with me, but I’m not a major player in my industry by any means. I’ve never competed for a position at this level – I’m middle management and my title involves the words “Senior Manager” but it’s one I worked up to within my current organization from almost the very bottom of the professional ladder here- No real competition involved, just logical advancement from point A to B and so on. So this new opportunity is so, SO exciting, and I wanna know for sure, RIGHT NOW!

    So even though I know, it’s only been 5 business days since they said they began the reference checks, and even though I also know that emailing them to “check up” is ridiculous and would be annoying, I want to do it, to do something, anything! so bad! I feel like I’m on pins and needles! Help keep me sane fellow AAM fans! I need anyone who has a second to remind me to stay sane and resist the temptation to fall to the Dark Side, no matter how good their cookies are!

    1. Existentialista*

      All the best! My sister and I developed a ritual for just this situation, adapted from a gesture one of her friends used – when waiting to hear back about a job, we would say, “Hands up for goodness!”, and put our hands up.

      I thought it was interesting that when my sister put her hands up, they would be in a gesture of surrender, like, “I’ve done all I can, so Fate, so do what you will to me,” whereas I would put my hands up with palms facing up, like I was waiting for Goodness to fall on me from the sky. So, whatever works best for you.

      Hands up for goodness!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I understand. There are so many times where nothing can be done except waiting, but I want to do something, anything! I’ve created little compulsive activities like dropping “happy thought” pennies into a jar every hour. You could do something crafty like build a “future job” tower out of Popsicle sticks or take a thoughtful drive. The idea is to find that something else to do.
      Or, play an all consuming video game. Before you know it, you will have the response from the employer!

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      I’m in exactly the same position! I *know* they’re checking references, and I assume an offer is coming, and it’s only been a week since my last interview, and STILL I feel it’s taking forever! It’s also making it suuuuper hard to concentrate on the boring-but-important work I still need to do at my current job.

      So far my only strategy has been to post about 900 times on this thread, but I’m not sure if that’s necessarily helpful. :) I will go with Existentialista’s excellent advice – Hands up for goodness!

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Can you apply for another job? I know it sounds counter intuitive, but for me, applying for jobs while waiting for one really helped me calm down and feel like less was riding on the job being checked. Even for jobs that were sort of like- I’m not sure about this. Good luck!

    5. OhBehave*

      Hands up and off the keyboards!!!
      Five days is nothing. Remember people may be on vacation or this is not at the top of their priority list!
      Email Thursday if you’ve heard nothing.
      Waiting is nerve-wracking to be sure.

  78. Ruth (UK)*

    I have a colleague who is a little older and also senior to me though not in my line of management and our work doesn’t frequently directly affect each other. She very frequently does ‘helpful’ things for me but these things are at best not helpful and usually actually cause me slightly more work. However they are not big things and tend to just be attempts at doing small helpful things but actually just frequently doing small annoying things. This happens very frequently and almost every week she will come up with a new and interesting way to be ‘helpful’.

    Here are some recent examples:

    1. We get a milk delivery each week of 4 bottles outside the building. I put two bottles in a fridge in one kitchen and 2 in another. The entrance is about halfway between the kitchens. To help me out, she took the milk in for me. She put all bottles in one fridge and binned the invoice (we get it as a hard copy that is left with the milk).

    2. Every day we get a newspaper. One of my colleagues likes to take the previous day’s one home and I keep it for her. One day after I had put the new newspaper in the staff room and the old one on my desk, my helpful colleague saw the old one on my desk when I popped out, assumed it was the new one, put it back in the staff room, and binned the actual new one.

    3. I am not picky about my tea and when we make tea in rounds at work (a thing in my office) I have tea. I am picky about my coffee though and only drink weak milky decaff. People are weird about this so I never ask people to make that for me but make myself a cup first thing sometimes as I’m usually first in and alone. Noting I drink coffee in the morning, my helpful colleague helped herself to my supplies one day and made me a very strong coffee. I was able to drink it after pouring some out and diluting with a lot of water and milk.

    4. Our nearest printer is in a common area down the corridor. My helpful colleague often brings me printing which she thinks looks like it could be mine. It never is – I always use hold or locked print so my printing will never come out until I go to the machine myself – I have told her this.

    … And so on.

    I find it difficult to address because there seems to be a never ending list of new things she comes up with to be helpful and I don’t feel like I can ask her to stop trying to be helpful (in general). And also I understand she’s trying to be kjnd. In the moment I have said about specific things like ‘oh, I am a bit funny about how I take my coffee so I prefer to make it myself generally but thank you’ or ‘thank you but this [printing] isn’t mine. I always use hold or locked print’

    Unfortunately this person is the sort of person who’d take it upon herself to fix something without asking, but break it.

    She is a very kind person and I get on with her well otherwise. I also believe she does good or at least decent work though we don’t work in a way that directly affects each other anyway…

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I have no useful advice but I just wanted to validate your frustration – I would be HOWLING with rage!

    2. !*

      If/when you’ve asked her *not* to be helpful, how does she respond? Does she not have enough of her own work to do that she feels the need to find other things to do? This would annoy me to no end.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        A little put out but not much. She doesn’t have enough work actually – she’s part time and often tells us (and her manager) that she’s all up to date with her own work if anyone needs help with anything. In cases where she asks to help and is given a specific task (instead of inventing ones for herself) she is often actually helpful, so I guess the thanks I/we give her when she does actually helpful things helps offset the times when she has ‘helped’ in an annoying way.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      She sounds like she’s not good at boundaries. Keep telling her to please don’t take things off your desk, don’t help herself to your supplies, don’t bring you printouts because the printouts are never yours. Tell her as these things occur. Consider telling her in detail how she’s causing you more work, using a polite and friendly tone. If there’s something she CAN do for you, tell her specifically how she can help you.
      It might be essential to stop saying “thank you” for her actions that cause you more work. Say “Actually, these are not my printouts. Please put them back for whoever needs them.” She might be hearing the thank you and disregarding everything you say after that, so I’d quit thanking her for non-help.
      Do say “thank you” if she does something that actually helps.
      She might be seeking your attention for some reason. Does she do this to other people?
      I hope you can train her to stop “helping”. Sending hopeful thoughts your way.

      1. valentine*

        Doing bits of your job (and wrong! and in the worst way!) and stealing your coffee supplies, even for you, isn’t kind. It’s wild and weird. Tell her to keep her eyes on her own paper.

    4. Foreign Octopus*

      I also just wanted to validate your annoyance here.

      I really, really dislike it when people “help” me without asking if I need help. I’ve come to realise that unasked for help is simply a hindrance more than actual help, but I also recognise that it’s coming from a kind place.

      If you really want to address it, and I can’t say I’d be willing to because of the level of awkwardness, you could try:

      “You’re very kind for trying to help me out with the tasks I have to do, but honestly it’s so much easier if you just let me do it myself as most of what needs to be done is kept in my head and I’m finding that it’s throwing me off my rhythm when I find that something has already been done, so can you help me out and let me do these things myself? Thanks.”

    5. YetAnotherUsername*

      When you find out how to get her to stop helping without hurting her feelings, let me know. There’s a special kind of hell in someone really nice trying really hard to help you and making your life more difficult. I have a similar situation with my mother who just wants to help and wreaks havoc in my house every time she visits: shrunk clothes, butchered plants (I did your garden!) broken tools. It’s tough when people are genuinely coming from a good place.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I’m so sorry; I know you’re frustrated, but she sounds like a sitcom character.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      How do you react when she does this? Do you make an effort to not make her “feel bad,” or do you let your dismay show?

      A surprised/disappointed “Oh, no…” isn’t aggressive or mean.

      If she’s not around when you discover the problem, do you follow up and ask her for help fixing it? Like, “Arlene, can you tell me what happened to that invoice? I need it to pay the vendor….Which bin? Can you help me look, please?”

      I realize she’s senior to you, so you may not be comfortable asking her to physically correct her mistakes. But it might make an impression if you let her deal with some of the awkwardness she caused.

  79. Anon Accountant*

    My department has to present financials every 4 months at a staff meeting. We have engineering, IT, and production departments attending.

    We just have reviewed budgets, revenue is up, etc but I know that’s uninteresting to most departments. We did a PowerPoint last time to show a few charts instead of just talking. What would make an accounting presentation more interesting to you?

    1. fposte*

      Would humor be frowned on? I’d definitely do a PowerPoint with charts and maybe do some slightly goofy things to keep people’s attention–use stacked cats instead of bars on a graph, that kind of thing, if you have the kind of atmosphere where that wouldn’t be considered unprofessional.

      Also, feel free to overtly foreground the “Why you might care” aspect. “Good news! We got more money! Here is how much; here is what we’ll be able to do around here as a result.”

      1. Anon Accountant*

        That sounds great! They’d appreciate some humor and it’d help relate it to their departments more. It’s like “revenue is up” and you can feel them thinking “well that’s nice”.

        They’d love an interesting chart instead of another pie chart. Thanks!

    2. Krickets*

      Stories, anecdotes (on who contributed to profits, strategies, or client growth), and maybe even good feedback from clients/customers for that period.

    3. Earthwalker*

      I used to love those presentations when we had them! Finance always presented from the point of view of other departments: how the numbers predict profit sharing, hiring, potential for raises and promotion, and job stability. The presenters weren’t shy about addressing complicated financial data that interested them but that needed a non-condescending explanation to those of us without financial expertise, so that we could understand what it meant and why it was important. That they would take such care to make sure we understood what was going on in our business always made me feel like an insider, like “we’re all in this together.” Do your production and engineering present as well? At our meetings, their descriptions of how manufacturing costs were being lowered and what the next thing in the R&D pipeline was helped to complete the business picture that finance was drawing for us.

      1. Anon Accountant*

        Production is good. They did a video of their new machines running and handed out popcorn. That was fun.

        Engineering just talks and our eyes glaze over because they get too technical and it’s over our heads. I’d like if they could show something and we’d understand more.

        Maybe detailing next projects would be fun too.

  80. aryalistening*

    How do you deal with colleagues who take every work request personally or see it as a ‘contest of wills’? An example–today she came into the room I was in with 2 other people and was talking and laughing loudly; I told her there was someone in the next room who needed to concentrate (it’s well known that our walls are pretty thin); she just stared at me without smiling until I left, and then once I did, she made a couple of jokes to the others about my request. So, it’s clearly a work request, and not even one that impacts me, and yet I guess she sees it as an affront? I manage a team of 3 that feels similarly–we don’t have to work with this person often, but when one of us does, I try to make sure it’s me (though I make sure my team knows that if they do have to work with her, they should maintain their professionalism regardless of her behavior). I think I know what the answer is (“Let it go, as long as it’s not affecting the actual work”), but ugh, it’s tough.

    1. valentine*

      You did tell her, in front of others, that she was being inconsiderate, and there are people who would be embarrassed or view it as merely a personality conflict. Could be she thinks you are the one who makes things a contest of wills. What if you had said nothing? The person next door could have advocated for themselves. Stop taking the hit for your team. Is the pattern that you are assigning yourself the task of mitigating her for others? Without more examples, especially one about an actual work process or product, I don’t see that she requires so much effort. If she’s a peer, you can ask your manager for advice. If she’s junior to you, you might chat with her manager. But only if there are worse/bigger things she does.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        I think this is a little unfair here.

        It’s perfectly reasonable to ask someone to keep the noise down if you know that someone else needs to concentrate. If the colleague was on a video conference or otherwise engaged with a client then I’m not sure how they could have “advocated for themselves” without having to pause what they were doing.

        Aryalistening wasn’t taking the hit for the team, they were just asking someone to be a little quieter.

        1. OhBehave*

          It all depends on the tone of voice used in asking for quiet. Doing this in front of others is not the best way of handling this but may have been necessary.
          As for taking the hit for the team, OP does mention that they will work directly with this person instead of having her team do so. This is separate from the noise incident.

  81. OperaArt*

    Tomorrow I’ll be acting in a training video, being the kind of boss that someone might write in about. I get to say some truly cringe worthy lines.
    Who knew that reading AAM would be good training for my secondary job of acting? :-)

    1. Nanc*

      Please tell me you’ll have a spray-painted-gold Barbie and Hanukkah Balls somewhere on the set!

      2. OperaArt*

        That would be perfect! Alas, I have no say in the set decorations.
        Maybe a gift bag full of trash, too.

    2. Pam*

      I got to do this for a video on working with student veterans. I played every stereotype to the hilt.

  82. staaaaaaaaaaar*

    Boss has sent around a request that everyone provide their pronouns for a new internal staff list. I’m INCREDIBLY UNCOMFORTABLE doing this because a) I’m genderfluid and b)I’m not “out” to anyone and I just roll with whatever pronouns someone uses for me. Add in the fact that this is an academic setting with a well meaning but clueless boss in a very conservative area and I feel a bit trapped by the situation. Any suggestions welcome. I’m also worried that it’ll seem like I don’t believe in people speaking up about their pronouns! I do! Especially cis-allies. But I don’t want to be compelled to do it as I’m uncomfortable labelling myself as any gender.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        One of the strange things about pronouns is that they are largely used to refer to you when you are not in the room or in third person. I rarely call my sister- She when I’m speaking to Her. I rarely call my genderfluid friend They when I am speaking to Them. So, I think that makes this a little bit of a more understandable mistake. People are asking because they don’t want to mess up when you are not around. My advice would be put down whatever makes you most comfortable. People are presumably already referring to you by some pronoun, right? So, why not just let them continue to do so. I think the no-preference solution from fposte makes sense.

          1. Blue Eagle*

            What about saying my pronouns are: staaaaaaaaaaar, staaaaaaaaaaar, and staaaaaaaaaaar’s?

            I’m actually curious about what the AAM commentariat thinks about doing the above.

            1. Lilysparrow*

              Well the grammar stickler in me says that a proper noun isn’t a pronoun.

              It’s also reminding me of Bob Dole always referring to himself by name, in third person.

              If OPs goal is to not be outed or have the conservative-leaning folks in the department react awkwardly, that would be highly counterproductive.

            2. Monokeros de Astris*

              This is a really transphobic comment. Why would you post this, especially masquerading as a suggestion?

              1. Blue Eagle*

                Sorry, I didn’t know that. A co-worker wondered about it as a possibility and commenters to this blog are usually friendly and willing to politely educate people who don’t know but want to know. Sigh!

                1. Monokeros de Astris*

                  I apologize. I posted that because I didn’t realize you were using the poster’s username as a placeholder for their real name, and read it as a purely mocking fake-pronoun “suggestion,” which I have seen happen more than once online. So a better answer is, some people do prefer their name only in favor of gendered pronouns (but far from everybody), but as I posted elsewhere, asking for anything at all other than your assigned pronouns is generally tantamount to coming out, which sounds unsafe right now.

      2. staaaaaaaaaaar*

        I wish. It’s such a small office any “no preference’ or non answer would immediately raise suspicion. I’ve currently just been ignoring emails.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Oh, that sucks. I really wish I had suggestions for you! My shoulders are up to my ears in sympathy uncomfortable-ness, tbh.

      Is there any way to go talk to Boss (maybe HR?) and generally talk about how uncomfortable this may be for Generic Person, and may out people who don’t want to be outed? Maybe have the request changed to just putting your preferred pronouns if you want to in your email signature? That’s the only thing I can think of, and I’m not sure it’s adequate.

    3. deesse877*

      Wow, people really don’t get it about outing others, do they? I’ve seen comparable stupidity twice. My sense is that academics, life-long “good students” for the most part, think “getting the answer right” is “doing the right thing.” Especially since access to this list is going to be hard to control (other staff, work-study, IT), I recommend telling the person that responses must be optional for safety reasons. That’s the god’s honest truth, unfortunately, and would not involve you confessing anything.

    4. Holly*

      Requests like this are intended to be able to use correct pronouns per how the individual *wants.* You don’t *want* people to use pronouns that would indicate you are gender fluid, so it is perfectly appropriate to either (a) not respond (unless its mandatory), (b) pick the pronouns most people seem to use for you that you are OK with going by, or (c) say exactly what you said – that you have no preference. If prompted for an explanation you could always say you’re trying to be inclusive and would never get offended by someone mistaking your gender (without specifying what the mistake would be)

      1. Hrovitnir*

        Requests like this are forcing people to either choose a pronoun they don’t like, or out themselves to their collegues.

        Would I like to use gender-neutral pronouns? Yes. Would I be willing to say my preferred pronouns are “they” to my extended workplace? Absolutely not. Am I OK with people using the pronouns they associate with my appearance? Yes. Am I OK with having to say I LIKE those pronouns, on pain of having to justify my gender repetitively? NO.

        I don’t care if the intention is to be inclusive, the outcome is incredibly uncomfortable for a hell of a lot of the people this is supposed to be supporting, and that is the point.

        (I don’t have an answer, sorry OP. I don’t know what I’d do, honestly. Probably choose a gendered pronoun and fume.)

        1. staaaaaaaaaaar*

          Yeah, I’m at a loss for what to do. I DO NOT want to be out to these people. Ugh. :(

    5. M*

      If you need a way to communicate the issues that this approach creates to your boss without outing yourself, and the standard “I have friends in the trans community and…” approach still feels too close, may I proffer the university competitive debating circuit? They’ve been fairly routinely using pronoun introductions pre-debate for about five years now, so went through a lot of the “how do you ask this in a way that supports people who are otherwise frequently misgendered but that also doesn’t push people to out or misgender themselves?” issues in a pretty public way. “[College friend/sibling/whatever] who worked on this policy in their hobby and ran into the following issues:…” is pretty much unfalsifiable as a result. (For curious people, that’s led to a standard policy that there’s a space for people to share pronoun preferences during introductions at the start of each debate, but no answer or “no preference” is a complete answer, and everyone defaults to gender-neutral language for those with no expressed preference.)

    6. Monokeros de Astris*

      This happened to me once or twice, at the LGBTQ employee resource group meeting, in the period of time between coming out to myself and coming out at work. I don’t have advice. It sucked because *anything* I could say besides my AGAB pronouns, including “no preference,” would have constituted outing myself, and actively misgendering myself felt much worse than passively letting other people do it (like you, it sounds like). I ended up saying “he/him is fine” or something like that to keep at least a bit of a remove from my identity.

      I’ve given this as feedback after but it keeps happening. I’m going to push more strongly next time for pronouns to be explicitly optional so people can just “forget” and not be pushed on it.

      1. staaaaaaaaaaar*

        Yeah, I’m stuck between misgendering myself or outing myself in a semi-hostile environment. It’s not great.

  83. Environmental Compliance*

    We are up to nearly 10 violations in 2 months for my Problem Child Direct Report, with an entire baskets worth of emails & other communications that they flat out ignore. Like the required trainings they skipped last month, and then decided to just not acknowledge at all until a week later, when I came to them and raised a bit of hell.

    My boss is out of the office, and was for the past 2 (2 in a week, same thing, YAY). I finally went to Corporate and asked for assistance. They are not pleased, and are asking for a lot of information, which I am happy to give.

    I just want us to be in compliance. I just want to not need to hand-hold this position. I don’t think that’s asking too much. My boss’s answer was talking to the individual, which I have already done ad nauseum, and wasn’t interested in a PIP. Corporate is…..not entertained by this.

    It probably helps that Corporate is actually our personnel management company, who is in a contract with Parent Company to provide personnel, part of which is minimizing noncompliance, so at this point if this doesn’t get solved, this is not only a giant bag of noncompliance issues but *also* potentially a breach of contract if they don’t do something about it, which is not something that I was aware of in the contract.

    Hoping that something comes out of this. I can’t do my job and keep the facility in compliance when my hands get tied. Also, the last time I did talk to Boss about this, he changed the subject to a promise of a 15% bonus at the end of the year, which now that I think back on it, just seems really weirdly timed. (No, Boss and PCDR are not related, friends, or any way connected that I know of.) I don’t care about the money. You are paying me to do a job, that I take great pride in, and are otherwise darn good at according to many people’s reviews (I get a corporate review & internal, and have gotten other outside good feedback), it’s more meaningful to let me do my damn job than throw money at me to ignore a problem.

    1. Purt's Peas*

      Hopefully something comes out of this. And if your boss gets in trouble for this, please don’t feel guilty: he’s frankly more at fault for the repeated violations than PCDR is, at this point. There’s (supposed to be) a system to prevent violations, right? But your boss is at a crucial point of that system and is failing to be a failsafe for whatever reason.

      Good luck–I think you did the right thing in talking to corporate.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Thanks – I had brought up to Corporate that I had thought I was doing the right thing when I had just gone to my Boss at first, and they chuckled and said that that *should* have resulted in a change, the logical thing was to escalate to my supervisor, what else would I have done? So that did make me feel better. I don’t *want* to go around people and mess up the chain of command, but when you force me to do so, well, that’s on you. If they wanted someone to just go “oh well” when something is out of compliance, they hired the wrong person.

        I’m hopeful. I also had talked a little to Parent Company Adviser, who was also less than entertained. They were the one who mentioned the contract.

  84. Applesauced*

    I’m having a head shot taken next week for my office – this will go on our internal website, maybe the external website, and in marketing materials.

    Clothes – I’m planning to wear either a solid colored dress, or a white blouse. Sleeves? Sleeveless?
    Accessories – minimal jewelry, nothing trendy.
    Hair – debating wearing my hair wavy or flat ironing (I prefer how it looks straight, but it’s August and humid so how it looks right after styling =/= how it will look by picture time)

    Any tips?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Be comfortable as well as professional. I don’t mean opt for yoga pants, but if you have a dress that makes you feel really, really good, wear it. Same with your hair. You want to look like you. For my headshot, I wore a dress that I loved because I knew the color was awesome on me, my favorite necklace, and my hair the way I usually wore it. Very light makeup. (Sadly, I had to toss that dress because it had an oil stain. I kept it for 5 years with that stain, just because I loved it so much. Wore it for the headshot and said goodbye to it because it had done its job.)

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I think solid is good, but a colour rather than white which may disappear into the background. Sleeves: yes, because you don’t know where the photo will be cropped. Depending on the field I’d be tempted by a jacket/blazer (if all the men will be in shirt sleeves, no need).

      Good instincts on jewellery though that would depend on precise outfit. I would avoid anything that puts you in a box (e.g. crucifix or Deathly Hallows or x-wing).

      For makeup I would have a look at any existing work photos for the corporate style. Personally I’d be tempted by strong eyeliner (natural shape) and mascara because my eyes kind of disappear in photos otherwise, but I wouldn’t go for a red lip or a full Insta contour or anything.

      Could you straighten your hair then clip/claw it up until nearly photo time? It sounds like you’d feel more confident straightened and that might be a way to protect it.

      1. valentine*

        a colour rather than white which may disappear into the background
        Yes. No white if you wouldn’t want it against cream/white/yellow. No black in case the background is black, unless you want a “Bohemian Rhapsody” vibe, in which case, rock on. No blue/green in case of blue-/greenscreen because they’re switching out the background.

    3. OperaArt*

      Well, actors headshots are a little different, but I’ve been taught to wear solid colors, avoid white, and to pick a color that looks great on you. If that color can be in the blue/teal/aqua family, even better.
      It’s common in my area to show up at an audition and see everyone in the waiting room in blue or green.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’d ask what color background it’s going to be shot on. What you want to wear may vary – that white blouse might look great on a dark background but you may end up a floating head if it’s a white background.

      As for sleeves, I’d check existing headshots on the site to see what other people wear, or if you’ll even really see much of your shoulders/torso. Some headshots show a lot of upper arm and some just the top of the shoulders. Personally I get worried that my bare arms can look unflattering at certain angles, especially if I’m posing with them at my sides like you typically do for headshots, so I’d probably opt for sleeves just to prevent that.

      But overall? Don’t worry too much! I totally worried about my headshot but honestly it’s not a major deal and no one will be looking at it as closely or as studiously as you will, so it’s not worth a lot of headspace. Not that I think you are, but just a general reminder.

    5. Krickets*

      Practice all sides of your face if needed so you know how you want to look and also feel free to indicate which is a preferred side you’d like to be taken from (but mention it very nicely, not in a way where you’re directing the photographer–they usually have these things covered but just in case).

  85. Squirrel!*

    Networking: how do you do it? I’m trying to break into a different career field after getting a new degree, so I followed some of Alison’s advice and joined a professional group for the field. They have regular networking events, and I’ve been to two and they are just miserable. No one tries to seek out new people, everyone else already knows each other, so they gravitate towards each other. Nothing is done to make new people feel welcome, and it’s really intimidating (but it isn’t an intimidating career field or anything, it’s environmental professionals). I’d really like to participate, but it’s so tough to go up to people to talk to them when you’re essentially talking to them to get a job, feels inauthentic you know?

    Does anyone have any tips or suggestions? I’m also thinking if maybe it would be appropriate to try one more social event and then possible contact the organizers and let them know that it’s a difficult event for newbies, and maybe they should try to make some strides towards being more welcoming…

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Hey, I’m an environmental professional!

      Honestly I’d try a different group. Most of the ones I’ve been in around me have been way nicer than the one you mentioned. I’ve also had good luck networking at training conferences, especially as a newbie.

      One that I’m not directly part of (yet) but know a lot of people in is the Air & Waste Management Association, if that’s in any way related to what part of the field you’re in. I was also a part of the state Environmental Health Association, which I found pretty encouraging.

    2. Auddish*

      I broke into a non-professional hobby group that had kind of a similar vibe to what you’re describing (not too much outreach to newbies, existing members knew each other very well). What worked for me was just to suck it up and accept the awkwardness. I showed up regularly, introduced myself to people, tried to remember faces and names and talking points for the future. It definitely took a few weeks (maybe months?) for me to feel comfortable with the group. Now I try to be the person who greets new people and gets them included in the conversation if they seem like they’re left out or intimidated by how familiar the regulars are with each other.

  86. Allspice*

    My boss, who travels a lot, keeps telling me that “people” are complaining about my attendance and performance while he is away and insists now he can’t trust me. I am really confused as I am in the office every day for my required hours (and then some – I’m exempt and typically work around 50-55 hours a week). I take maybe one 20-30 minute break each day during my 10-11 hours in the office and am hitting all my performance targets by or ahead of deadlines. I have asked for more specifics but he says he “just has a sense” I’m not working as hard as I could be when he’s away from the office, even though I’m reviewing to-dos and accomplishments with him at least daily. I have also asked the few people I work most closely with if they are getting the support/collaboration they need from me and I always receive an enthusiastic yes in return. We don’t have HR, but I’ve asked the couple other managers who are senior to me (at my boss’s level) if they have any concerns and they seemed very puzzled and say I am the office’s top performer who is 100% reliable and trustworthy. What should I do? I am open to feedback if I genuinely need to work harder/better/longer – we’re in a tough and competitive industry – but I can’t make changes without more specifics.

    1. fposte*

      Urgh. This really sounds like he has his own anxieties about being OOO and he’s projecting them on you.

      I know you’ve asked for specifics about what’s wrong without result; is it worth trying a slightly different tack to ask what you should do differently? If you can, without being sarcastic/aggressive, say “I’ve been working 55 hours this week/I’ve sold 200 widgets–did you have a different target in mind?”

      If you’ve otherwise gotten along with this boss, you could also try candor. “I’m really startled by this feedback; we’ve worked together for a long time and you know my performance level. I’m happy and eager to tackle a problem if you see one, but it would help a lot to get some guidance on that. Can you help me?”

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        Do you log into something like ADP? You could send a screenshot of your hours.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Has he offered a solution? Has he asked you to check in more or anything like that? I mean, regardless, it sounds like he’s feeling kind of… insecure, maybe? It’s a very weird response to a normal situation, but is he normally a micromanager?

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Is he trying to get you to leave? I don’t think you can change his mind by working even harder.
      Why would a boss would tell a great employee he can’t trust them? This is weird. This might be a “I’m sorry. Your boss isn’t going to change.” situation. You might need to look for a new job if he has sole discretion over your employment there.
      Sorry about this. It’s weird.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This was my impression too. Your boss sucks and is using “people tell me” instead of being honest that this is a him problem, not a you problem. I don’t think there’s any way you can get him to “trust” you again by working even more hours, even if he says that’s the answer. I’m assuming this workload of 50-55 hrs/week is typical of your industry, but there’s no way I would work all those hours above the standard 40 and then put up with that kind of feedback, much less offer to work even more.

        Since you appear to have good references from everyone else, I’d be looking to get out ASAP – ideally to report to someone else in the company or switch jobs entirely if that’s feasible. But I highly doubt you’ll get far, no matter how hard or long you work, with this person as your boss.

    4. animaniactoo*

      Can you go back to him and say “I’ve checked with everyone who might be having a problem and even some who haven’t. Nobody is raising an issue with me, and most seem puzzled that there might be a problem. I’m not sure where this is coming from, but it is clearly not reflected in my output. At this point, there’s nothing more I can do to address it and I’m left in this nebulous space where you don’t trust me based on something you’ve heard but left me no way to defend myself against it. Can I ask you to either dig into the reports that you’re getting for more information, or leave this alone unless you start seeing an issue with my work output or availability yourself?”

      1. Holly*

        I agree with the content of this, but there has to be a less confrontational way of saying this. Like “Do you mind clarifying what your targets are? I work X hours and no one has communicated that problem to me before!”

  87. voyager1*

    Okay crew, I need a gut check on this:

    2 weeks ago:
    I am given a task from my manager and with clear instructions to send to MY MANAGER before sending on to a Project Manager. I go very deep into it. I email it to my manager on a Tuesday. But she is out through the week. No biggie

    This week:
    I follow up. Manager states “I read it briefly while on vacation I spoke to Different Manager and forwarded it to her. Different Manager read it and forwarded relevant parts to Project Manager. Please continue reviewing said items and send results to the Project Manager” this is all verbal.

    For some reason, maybe her tone, but I got thinking “how do I work with Project Manager since I don’t know what Other Manager sent because I NEVER SENT MY WORK TO PROJECT MANAGER!!!!”

    I Instant Message Other Manager to chat. I call her and say “My Manager said you forwarded my work, I need to know what you sent”. She replies she looked at one part of my work, but didn’t forward anything on. She then pulls up the document, and proceeds to tell me what is good and bad but then says get back with my manager. I said no problem. I get off the phone and take moment to think abort what just happened…. I then IM my manager who proceeds to tell me she is on the phone with Other Manager. I say no problem get with me when you can. About an hour later I speak to My Manager and tell her what Other Manager said. I told her that we could get together to go over the document. She proceeds to tell me that she is booked with meetings and such. I get the tone in her voice she is a little annoyed. Also she doesn’t say anything about Other Manager and her story of events. She does say at this point she will read what I prepared after her meetings late in the day.

    I honestly feel lied to here. My Manager could have just said. I haven’t had the time to review your work in detail. If she had said that I would have been good. But for me it was the whole story looping in Other Manager that really has me unnerved. This whole story just feels like too entailing to be just misspoken or confused about what happened. It is a thing to tell a tale, it is another thing to tell one including another employee.

    Am I off base on this folks?

  88. Sharkie*

    My boss – who never has closed doors meetings or phone calls is having a ton of them today. He is also whispering to my coworkers and it’s driving my anxiety off the wall. Why is whispering so horrible to hear

      1. Sharkie*

        Me too. I am trying to ignore and focus on my work but its horrible to be around. Close the door. Dont whisper

    2. Sharkie*

      OMG we were screen sharing and an email popped up his screen I wasn’t supposed to see and now he is pissed whoops

    3. OhBehave*

      In my mind, whispering = secrets. We automatically think the whispers are about us.
      Are you the only one not being whispered to or included? Do you have a milestone coming up?
      Let us know what was going on!

  89. Anax*

    Still dealing with exasperating chronic illness, and I’m not getting as much work done as I’d like/expect to.

    Any advice on getting through this?

    (Got my diagnosis for hypermobility spectrum disorder (“technically not Ehlers-Danlos but it’s the same thing”, per the geneticist)… But no advice or help managing symptoms. Just in time for the summer to kick my butt, along with a million medical appointments for further diagnostics and symptom management.

    I’m starting physical therapy next week, and seeing a cardiologist Monday to see if I have postural orthostatic tachycardia – probably, given the HSD, dizziness, salt intake, heat-intolerance, and a heartrate jump of 30BPM every time I stand up.

    So… I’m ducking out for a medical appointment at least once a week, and I’m not at the top of my game in general right now.

    The office is warm enough that despite my best efforts – fan, two icepacks, TONS of gatorade and salt, moving desks – I tend to get too dizzy and nauseous to focus for at LEAST an hour or two per day. I can and do work from home at least once a week, but more would need to be worked out with my manager and I’m waiting on diagnostics/doctor’s note to request any major changes.

    These medical appointments are really preoccupying me right now, too. Some of them are physically difficult/unpleasant – Monday, I get strapped to a table and they see if they can make me faint – and some of the diagnoses have kind of scary long-term ramifications. I’m not as focused as I want to be, and it’s making it hard to get work done.

    My manager is aware of the situation and has been nothing but supportive, but as the weeks stretch on, I’m increasingly guilty about my distraction and health issues. I hope things will calm down in a few weeks, but I’m on a treadmill of medical referrals right now.

    Any advice on managing?)

  90. LilacLily*

    after applying for a job, is it bad to look at the LinkedIn profile of the people who would be your bosses and coworkers?

    I just applied to a job for a really cool company, went to check out their LinkedIn page, and while there I went to their people page and filtered by city to find the employees who work at the department I applied for (there are three, two with open profiles). I know if I look at their profiles they’ll know it through the “who viewed your profile” function, and I’m wondering if looking at their profiles right after applying for this job looks stalkerish or if it’s fine and I’m just overthinking it a little.

    I wrote a really good cover letter for this job and finally tweaked my CV to make it a bit more result oriented, so I’m feeling good about this and don’t wanna screw my chances by seeming desperate, you know? but I’m also a curious person, and I work a lot with positive visualization, so looking at their profiles could help a bit with my good vibes if that makes sense – but it also wouldn’t kill me if I didn’t. thoughts?

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I believe you can set your profile to private so that your name doesn’t show up in that list.

      Also there’s definitely nothing wrong with wanting to know more about the people you’d work with and their backgrounds. I wouldn’t do a crazy deep dive if you’ve only applied for a job and haven’t interviewed/been offered it, but checking out the manager wouldn’t be considered weird.

      I get the “XX people have looked at your profile” emails but I never actually check, though some people definitely do. Case in point – back when my now-husband and I started dating, on our fourth or fifth date he was like “hey is your mom’s name [name]? And does she work at [her job]?” Apparently she had looked him up on LinkedIn! When I told her (embarrassed) that people can tell who looks at their profile she proudly said “I know! I wanted to check that he was a real person, I have no problem that he knows that.” Fortunately he found it funny enough to not be scared off, but I was mortified.

      1. LilacLily*

        hahahah at least she didn’t do it on your first date! fourth or fifth isn’t so bad :P

        thank you for the reassuring words! I’ve been job searching for such a long time now and this is a really interesting job, so I’m staying positive. this job is more or less be a step down for me career-wise, but it also means I’d be moving to a particular city and working for a really interesting company AND moving out of IT, so for me it would be 100% worth it. even my mom thought the job was really cool when I told her what it was, so I think I’m in the right track. fingers crossed!

    3. Super Pansy*

      This happens all the time for me when someone new is coming in to interview or immediately after an interview. It doesn’t bother me at all, it’s kind of cool actually. It certainly shows interest, and I imagine either a) they never look at LinkedIn or b) they won’t think it’s weird.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      I do all kinds of research when applying for jobs. I’d probably hold off doing a LinkedIn search until I got called for an interview, but that’s because I prefer to put open applications out of my mind.

  91. IheardItBothWays*

    I have some high school interns and they are doing a good job. But they have some things that they need to change that are age appropriate for them. Like say looking down when talking, needing to be coaxed into saying things. talking too loudly when working about not work things (not inappropriate things but like about the latest movie and what they are doing that weekend) and the one I am having the most trouble with – “playing” with stuff while talking in a way that is very distracting/offputting. Like say twirling a badge on a lanyard around and around. They are acting like the teenagers they are so I am having a hard time figuring out how to tell them to cut it out and have them listen. I am not a teacher – this is a tech internship. If they were my peers I could tell them to cut it out but I feel I need to be more gentle because of the age.

    1. bluecollaryellowcollar*

      I feel like they’ll learn this with age, right? How long’s the internship for? Otherwise, I’m sure Allison would encourage responding in the moment – “Hey, spinning that lanyard isn’t a good look in a workplace, it’s a bit distracting”. If they’re not overly cocky they should take that on board.

      1. IheardItBothWays*

        6 weeks. So not a lot of time. I just feel part of this is to learn how to be in the work world. I want to make sure I am properly preparing them. I never had interns before. I might be overthinking.

    2. !*

      Oh, this is so timely for me. We have a college-age intern who cannot sit still in meetings and he’s always sitting in a very conspicuous place so you can’t not notice. One time he was scratching his legs like mad (hiked his pants leg up to his knee). He had lost his id badge (which allows him into our building) and got a new one, I just watched him playing with it yesterday in our meeting and it kept falling out of its holder…no wonder he lost the first one! I think some people are just naturally fidgety and I really don’t know how you would/could make someone aware (I almost asked him if he *did* have fleas but bit my tongue).

    3. deesse877*

      You may not be able to answer this, but do they have professional parents/family? If yes, then they’ll pick stuff up organically, but if no, then explicit instruction could be helpful. Things like twirling your lanyard are kid things, but not looking someone in the eye, or speaking too loudly in the office, could reflect blue-collar and service industry norms. If you do say something, flag it hard as a learning experience, and never s single anyone out.

    4. Colette*

      I’m someone who likes to play with stuff as well – I take pens apart, play with my badge, and doodle in meetings. I think if it’s truly distracting (like twirling a badge around), you can say “Hey, would you mind not twirling your badge?”, but if they’re playing with something more self-contained, I’d let it go.

      As far as the talking too loudly about non-work things, “Could you keep it down?” should work – or, if it’s a problem where they’re spending too much time talking about non-work stuff, point that out (“you spend a lot of time talking about movies, music, and other non-work things. That is giving your coworkers the impression that you’re not interested in the work you’re doing here”.

    5. Close Bracket*

      Re: Playing with stuff

      The question I have to ask is how do you do know they are not listening? Do they demonstrate that they didn’t hear the material in some way, like by asking a question about the thing you just said? I advise against telling them to just cut it out bc you don’t know what’s driving it. You could ask them not to do a specific thing that is distracting to you or carries some risk with it (like losing hold of the lanyard and having it fly off).

      For things that are merely off-putting but don’t hurt anyone, I would work on your own eye contact skills. Stick with eye contact, and you won’t have to see what their hands are doing. Learn to be comfortable with your own discomfort if they look down when talking. Even with neurotypical people, fidgeting or lack of eye contact is not always a sign that they aren’t paying attention. Find ways to confirm that they heard you rather than relying on what their hands or eyes are doing.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        The OP acknowledges that this is developmentally typical for their age

        It isn’t typical or socially-appropriate behavior for adults in a professional setting. Yes, some non-neurotypical people use these behaviors to manage their symptoms, or are unable to eliminate them. And that does impact what type of jobs and company cultures they can fit into.

        There may or may not be a need for OP to address this directly, but pretending that this is just some kind of strange hangup on OP’s part is unrealistic.

  92. bluecollaryellowcollar*

    Hey all!

    Just keen to get a few perspectives on this hiring process.

    I’ve recently moved back home with my parents after university and applied for a retail position in an established chain of specialist products while I work out my plans. I’ve had experience with another chain who deal with these specialised products, so I was quite confident this store would be a good fit.

    Yesterday, about a week after I submitted my application I received a phone call from them asking if I was free for a 45 minute phone interview – at that moment! When I said no, but I had today free, they said they’d try to call back then. I said I was looking forwards to hearing from them and they hung up.

    This feels odd, right? Reading this blog has encouraged me to trust instincts and notice red flags, though this might be an over reaction. Logic says they’re just a busy shop and the manager had time to ring me up then, but didn’t know when he’d be free, but there’s also a part of me that’s concerned it was some kind of test… I didn’t tell them why I wasn’t free (because it doesn’t matter if I was doing a run for charity or at the pub with my mates at that point) but even the surprise factor of a 45 minute interview without any prep is a bit unnerving.

    For what it’s worth, I’m probably going to ride it out – if I end up getting offered the position I’ll probably take it because I’m in quite a comfortable position right now so not a huge pressure if I leave, but definitely interested to hear what people think.

    2. OhBehave*

      That is not surprising at all. I would never presume a candidate was available that last minute. I really don’t think this was a test. Your supposition that they happened to be free was correct. It’s too bad you weren’t free but not a problem. Call or drop in to speak with them.

  93. Anon4Q*

    Hi, I’m the person who asked a question in an open thread a few weeks ago about whether I should include a skill that could be used for great evil on my resume. I think I mentioned that there’s likely to be a leadership change in the next couple years, and one of the likely successors is big into this technology that has huge pitfalls?

    Well, my update is that this week, I found out the CEO is big into the same technology with the same blindness to its hazards. It’s really disappointing to find that out. I have a lot of respect for the CEO and think their heart is in the right place. I am way too far down the org chart to open their eyes to the problems this technology brings with it. This has moved my job search up from “keeping an eye out for new opportunities” to “noping out of here at my earliest convenience”.

  94. Lynne879*

    I’m in the final interviewing stages for a job!

    It’s a group interview with the entire department. What sort of questions should I expect?

    1. irene adler*

      They are going to want to “get to know you” . They want to see if they like interacting with you and see how you communicate with them.
      Thing is, they are likely to be less formal in their approach. Don’t let this lull you into being less formal yourself. You are still being tested-even if they are all chummy.

      If some of the dept. members have not had any opportunity prior to this to interview you, then you can expect some skills questions (including something straight off of your resume). Maybe even repeats from prior interviews. Keep cool and answer them nicely. Just like you did the first time.

    2. Mellow*

      You cn also expect repeat questions from those who aren’t involved in your entire interview process.

      I suggest answering those kinds of questions as though you were never asked them, and, if you can swing it, answering them a bit differently than when you were first asked them. If I were involved in your process all day, that would go a long way toward demonstrating patience and a multi-angled understanding of whatever you’re being asked about.

  95. Recent College grad*

    Hey y’all! Just a general question but is it better to be exempt or non exempt if the job is paying the same amount and the same benefits?

    1. irene adler*

      Well, what amount of overtime will there be? If there’s lots, then non-exempt is the way to go. You want to collect pay for all those extra work hours-right?

      1. Recent college grad*

        There’s relatively little overtime, maybe 8 hours a month. Which makes me think it doesn’t matter that much either way but I’m not sure

          2. irene adler*

            That’s one whole work day-each month- that will be donated to the company at no cost to them.

    3. sacados*

      Just curious, are you seeing a specific job listed as both?
      There are certain criteria that a position has to meet in order to be considered exempt so my understanding is that one single role could not be listed as either/getting to choose exempt or non-exempt.

      1. LizB*

        If the role qualifies to be exempt, an individual company could still choose to treat them as non-exempt (choosing to pay overtime even though they don’t have to). The other way around wouldn’t work, though.

    4. Little Beans*

      Totally depends on whether the workload is reasonable to complete in 40 hours per week and if they pay for overtime. When I was non-exempt, we didn’t get paid overtime so we were just not allowed to work more than 40 hours per week. Sometimes I had too much work to do in certain weeks so then I would feel stressed about not getting things done and would WANT to work more. I am the kind of person who likes to clear their desk (and inbox) at the end of the day so that I can come in to a clean slate each morning – having to leave in the middle of projects with things undone drove me crazy. I much prefer being exempt because I can just stay late or work on the weekends whenever I want, but can also come in late or leave early pretty much whenever I want.

    5. Evergreen*

      I’d also ask how many of your colleagues are also non-exempt; there’s potential that you miss out cool projects and professional development opportunities if you’re the only person who attracts overtime.

  96. Lizzy May*

    My workplace has just sent out our annual employee survey and I have issues I’d like to raise, but despite the claims of anonymity, I do think it would be fairly easy for management to narrow down who leaves what comments. We don’t have skip level meetings and management doesn’t do 360 reviews for themselves so there isn’t really a way to provide feedback up. Is there a way to raise concerns about management without worrying that it will be held against me? (And yes, I’m looking for a new job because I know I shouldn’t feel this way in a job but in the meantime…)

    1. irene adler*

      Do you know what management plans to do with the feedback they receive? If they are not clear that they will make changes, and there are plans in the works to make constructive changes, then there’s no point in pointing out issues. They just want to hear how great they are.

    2. Wild Bluebell*

      Try to write it in a way that would make it more difficult to hold it against you.
      For example, instead of saying “They are terrible people and they always do [this]” say something like “When they do [this], it comes across as [this], and it makes me feel [like this]”.

  97. Art3mis*

    What do you do when you’re annoyed at things that have occurred but there’s not much you can do about it?
    Background: Last summer I started at my current job. It was a pay cut but I really didn’t like my last job, plus new job had a quarterly bonus program and raises for learning new skill sets. They’ve done away with both of those programs in exchange for a yearly merit raise which is not equal in the amount of pay. The raises make sense for folks who have been here a few years, they weren’t getting yearly raises and there weren’t any opportunities to learn more skill sets. But for me and others that started around the same time, we feel like we got screwed out of possible pay increases. There’s still a bonus program, but it’s yearly, and it’s based more on whether your manager feels you deserve it, not based on your work production like it was previously.
    So they’ve done away with being able to control raises and bonuses and replaced it with what is essentially a lottery. I’m annoyed, other people are annoyed, some folks have even left the company or transferred because of it. But me? I have no intention of leaving. I don’t interview well, my job searches have taken months if not years. I don’t want to do it again. So I kind of feel like I have no right or reason to complain because what am I going to do about it? I don’t have other options so it’s not like I’m going to leave. So how do I get over it?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Oh that sucks, your annoyances are totally valid. Even if you don’t want to leave, it doesn’t mean you have no right to complain. You can still feel cheated, angry, or like they pulled a bait and switch on you. That sucks, and I don’t think it would hurt to do a really soft job search, like sending your resume to a recruiter and let them send jobs to you, etc, and then be very picky so that you’re only putting effort into something you really want. And even if it takes a long time to get a new job, well hey that time passes either way.

      But if you truly have no intention of leaving (and that’s ok!), then honestly I think the best thing to do is reframe your mind. Make it so rather than you being stuck at your job, you’re choosing to be at this job. It could be a simple as thinking “sure they’ve done some lousy things, but I hate job searching so it is my choice to stay here”. It can be really helpful and freeing to think of yourself as actively choosing to be where you are, rather than trapped there.

      And allow yourself to be ok with that decision! Maybe give yourself a timeline or some parameters if you think it would help – “I am giving myself the freedom to not job search for six months/a year/whatever feels right. When [amount of time] has passed I will reevaluate my feelings, but until then, I’m allowed to feel ok.”

      Best of luck! It really sucks that the company took away those benefits.

  98. DietCokeHead*

    I’m going to an interview this afternoon. I’m currently working as a teapot system administrator and I haven’t been very happy at my current company for a while.

    I applied for a job at company A for a teapot system analyst back in June. A month after I applied, I was contacted by a recruiter at company A and went through a phone interview, which went well. A week and a half after the phone interview, the recruiter contacted me that I was still be considering but there were some changes on their end before in person interviews would be scheduled. I contacted the recruiter last week for an update and was told that I should expect to hear from them this week. Still no word from company A.

    In the meantime, I applied for a job at company for a teapot system administrator. A recruiter from company B contacted me for a phone interview. At the end of the phone screen, the recruiter moved me on to a phone interview with the hiring manager. The hiring manager was very enthusiastic about my experience and company B is where I’m interviewing this afternoon.

    I’m still torn though. Both positions are in line with my skills and experience and I really want to evaluate to find the best fit for me. But company A is going through the hiring process so slowly and company B is moving quicker.

  99. Alan Smithee*

    I had typed up a long question for a “this is weird, right? Not just me?” gut check but I realize that I know the answer and that my real question is: does anyone have advice for working with administrative staff who nominally support you but you yourself support the same people but in a different capacity (I’m a paralegal who previously was in a non-admin legal support role)?

    I don’t like to ask for things if I can do them myself (and often just doing them myself is quicker than explaining it) but it does mean that if I ask the admin to do something it’s because I’m absolutely overwhelmed with other things that are an essential feature of my job OR I’m passing along instructions from my direct supervisor, an attorney who the admin also supports, but who is not the admin’s direct supervisor. I’m well aware that job grades and titles notwithstanding, I am the low person on the department totem pole and this admin is well liked and does good work for others more senior in the department. I’d just like some advice on how to work with her so that I don’t end up doing the task I asked her to do myself because she pushed back and it’s just easier than fighting and potentially burning bridges.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      In what way is she pushing back? A hard “not my job” refusal? A softer kind of weaseling out of it? Or does she agree to do it, but just take so long or do it so poorly that you give up?

      1. Alan Smithee*

        For background, my boss (an attorney) asked her to send reminder emails to individuals who are assigned a monthly task that are assigned the task for the month and that materials should be sent to my boss by x date. The people who are to do the task change each month, and each person is responsible for it once every 15 months or so, and the list of who is to do each month was sent out by my boss at the beginning of the year. The admin told me that she doesn’t believe people should be reminded to do their jobs and has not sent any of the emails. I once sent her an email to confirm a conversation we had earlier in the day and used the phrase “as a reminder, please” and she responded that she had confirmed during our conversation that she would do the task I had asked which meant she would and she didn’t need to be reminded to do her job and it (the reminder) is a pet peeve of hers. Which took me aback because the email wasn’t meant to imply that she wouldn’t, but rather to have a written record for me to confirm that we had had the conversation so I could cross it off my to-do list. I was so bemused by the whole thing that I don’t think I ever responded to that.

        1. GooseyLucy*

          While I have to agree to some extent that people should be responsible for their own work without being reminded, that’s not her call to make if it’s coming from your shared manager so her reaction in this case seems unreasonable to me.

          Maybe instead of calling it a “reminder” when confirming conversations, you could say that you’re just confirming the chat from earlier? I think I’ve seen Allison suggest framing things as your own little quirk to make things less awkward(even if it’s not at all a quirk or an abnormal thing to 99% of the population!) such as “I have this thing where I need to keep written confirmation of things so I don’t forget, hope you don’t mind if I occasionally send you a note for that reason!” It actually drives me insane when I e-mail people questions and they answer verbally (or not at all, as they just presume that I know they have taken care of it) so I’ve used this tactic before myself.

    2. GooseyLucy*

      Personally, it really bugs me when people ask me to do silly things that they could just as easily (if not more easily!) do themselves. But that may be just me!
      Anyway, even with these small things I am more than happy to help out if a person is swamped- maybe if you’re only asking for that reason, you could include it in your request? Such as:

      “Would you mind helping me out with this urgent thing while I finish this other urgent thing?”.
      Or if it’s coming directly from your supervisor, “Mary asked if you could do xyz for her”.

      To be quite honest, the latter would have me thinking “Well, why doesn’t Mary just ask me herself then” but that’s also possibly just me(!) and it wouldn’t bother me at all that you were just passing it on.

      1. McKramer*

        When the person asking has a billing rate of $500/hr, and it’s your job to do admin tasks/generally support them, it’s less of a silly request and more of doing what you were hired for, IMO!

        Law firms in particular usually have REALLY defined hierarchies that make it really clear who is appropriate to ask to do what tasks, OR to ask them to do a task and know it will be delegated from there to the correct person.

    3. McKramer*

      You are the one billing time! Every firm I have worked has emphasized passing the task to the person who it is appropriate use of time for. I definitely get that it feels weird not doing something yourself, but I don’t think the admin being well-liked should play a part in this… It’s her job. Since she’s pushing back, I would ask someone for clarity on what tasks she is meant to be handling, and then you have some solid ground to just give her things and walk away, and not give her the opportunity to push back. (Like, determine whether there’s any “bite” to her push-back “bark”, or if she just doesn’t want to do it.)

      1. McKramer*

        For the record, I’m a paralegal who used to a few different admin/non-admin legal support positions, and I think that’s why I was so aghast at her turning you away! It’s the one thing I was taught never to do as a support person – you take the work, and if you need help completing it, you find it. You don’t tell someone you can’t/won’t do the work. If it’s truly not your job territory, tell them who is SHOULD go to.

        If you have one, I would talk to your HR or a coordinator and ask who you CAN count on to do work for you, since she is consistently not helping you. They should either help you find someone else, or talk to her.

    4. Pippa*

      When possible, pass along the instructions by email and cc the attorney. Then it’s in writing and the attorney knows you gave the instruction. Plus you can calendar it for follow up in Outlook or whatever system you use. Copying your attorney is a bit firm culture specific. At mine it’s a low level fyi due to heavy use of rules and filters. Ignore if it is aggressive at your firm.
      Consider when you get the push back. If she’s overloaded that day, do you have a back up option to go to? If not ask the office manager. This is a concern worth giving thought to and solving because it will impact your time. .5 here and .3 there in nonbillable work will snowball over weeks and a year. Even the quasi admin tasks that you can ethically bill may negatively impact you if you are compared to a peer who benefits from regular support. “Why does it always take Alan so much longer to file x?”
      Being low man doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t get the resources you need to do your job well but you may need to be the one to build that relationship. I hope it gets better soon.

    1. BuildMeUp*

      I’ve written one when applying to temp agencies in the past. My focus has always been on general skills I have that they would be looking for, and something about adaptability and picking up new skills/softwares/office policies easily.

  101. blackcat*

    There are lots of doctor shows and lawyer shows. What profession/job environment do you think needs more TV shows? Or would just make for funny/good TV?

    Example: Accounting firm, staged like a emergency medical drama. Person comes in with their taxes, all in a panic. Accountants move paper furiously. One comes back to the person, “I’m so sorry. Your finances are in such a disarray, there’s nothing we could do.”
    FDA inspectors, staged like a buddy cop drama (or comedy), trying furiously to track down the evil salmonella patient zero.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Speaking as a former health inspector, I’m giggling madly at an FDA based show as a cop drama. Heh. (I was also health department, as we did the investigations, followed by the state health department, not sure if FDA would get the entertaining cases. Anywho.)

      For health inspections you could do a Cops version. The dirty side of hoarder houses or meth houses. Not that we arrested anyone, but house condemnations can get bad fast. I had the local police on speed dial on my work cell.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes! I’d love to see the stories of FDA inspections gone wrong as TV drama. And to see how they catch people who are not manufacturing product as they should. Some of the stories make me shudder (NEVER gonna use eyedrops again!).
        Others make me laugh. We manufacture In Vitro Diagnostic test kits. We are FDA inspected every other year. So naturally, they sent an ex-meat packing FDA inspector to perform the inspection. He had no idea about chemistry or human serum or diagnostics. But he sure made a stink over some cracked floor tiles. So we fixed the tiles. That pleased him.

        1. no, the other Laura*

          There’s a new book out, Bottle of Lies by Katherine Eban. It’s about FDA inspections of generic manufacturers. Two of the drugs I take are made by Mylan, who has had multiple fairly awful violations….would explain an awful lot about hugely variable dose effects, even though they haven’t had a recall on the specific batches I’ve taken, one of them is exquisitely dose-sensitive.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            If you haven’t heard it yet, there’s an NPR Fresh Air episode with her talking about that book. It’s quite eye opening!

      2. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        Seconded. I was an environmental health inspector and it would fit perfectly on TLC. My area had a lot of no-tell motels. Have I got stories (and never bring a blacklight to a hotel room)

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Also, never bring a blacklight to a laundromat. Handprints. In the bathroom. Above head height. So many of them. Oddly, nothing in the laundromat itself (which I expected, because detergent).

      3. vanillacookies*

        You might enjoy the comic book series Chew! It was really weird, but it was a good time.

    2. HRAwry*

      HR. Specifically, my line of work where I conduct investigations. We see everything from sexual harassment, discrimination, workplace violence, people acting really weird (think barricading themselves into their cubicle with several filing cabinets as to avoid others,) we respond to suicide attempts…etc… HR needs a show.

      1. blackcat*

        Ooo, yes! Definitely an HR show.

        A friend worked cleaning pools in high school. He saw a lot of bonkers stuff at the houses of rich people, which would also make for good comedy.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        I think that would help too with “but is this legal????” questions people have a lot of, and the difference between what HR should do and what people think it must do.

        1. blackcat*

          Oh, no, it would totally make it worse! TV HR would be waaayyyy ridiculous, the way TV law and TV medicine are. TV medicine is why people think fibrillating people actually restarts their heart most of the time. It doesn’t! If you get to the point of getting zapped, you’re almost surely toast.

        2. HRAwry*

          I think that would cause a lot of confusion if they actually went over the laws in a docu-style show. I’m in Canada and work with counter-parts in the USA and the UK and the spectrum of the laws and what is/isn’t legal is totally different.

      3. A Simple Narwhal*

        I’d love a show that shows popular workplace shows from the point of view of a normal HR department. Workplace shows are so common, but to keep things interesting they have to be horrific workplaces to actually work for in the real world.

    3. !*

      The only show I ever saw related to IT was the IT Crowd which was a British sitcom and it was awesome. I like the idea of incorporating learning with the comedy, like The Big Bang Theory. I actually learned about things I’d never even known existed or had any interest in previously so it just added to the level of enjoyment. I think a comedy about IT could also be educational if done right.

      1. Emily S.*

        The IT Crowd was such a great show!

        Some of the actors have gone on to do great things. The tall Irish guy, Chris O’Dowd, was a supporting cast member in the film Bridesmaids. He played the cop, Rhodes. The only strange thing was that they dyed his hair this really unnatural dark brown color. But he was great.

        1. !*

          Yes, I loved him in Bridesmaids and have even caught him on the Graham Norton show (which is awesome in its own right) where he was also really funny. That Irish accent just adds to his appeal!

      2. Lilith*

        Butcher shops? Chicago Meats. Ha! Must continue all career shows in Chicago land & add clever titles.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        OMG I love The IT Crowd. My favorite thing on that show was in the “Jen the Fredo” episode.

        Roy (talking about Fredo in The Godfather): “You know, Fredo, in the movie; he was sort of a p!mp.”
        Moss: “No! He took the ring to Mordor!”

        I had to pause it and laughed for five minutes solid.

    4. CTT*

      As a corporate lawyer, I think we need lawyer shows that don’t involve courtrooms/litigators. You could get a great Brooklyn 9-9 type of sitcom out of commercial real estate. The stakes are so relatively low but there are so many crazy rich people who think they are the most important person.

    5. Lizzy May*

      I’ve always thought the CW could get a hit out of a show about RAs at a college. It’s more of a semi-professional workplace with young people interacting with other young people. There’s often boundary crossing that would make for good drama and even though students are in the role, the stakes can be very high. (When I was an RA, we had a student who stabbed himself, several in the hospital for alcohol poisoning, sexual assaults, physical fights and so much roommate drama.) I’ve thought for years that it would make for an ideal college drama because you get the workplace procedural element and the teen relationship drama. (So many RA hookups and hookups between RAs and students.)

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        This would be amazing! I had a complex coordinator who I swear to god was a sitcom character. She was a nightmare to work for but I’m sure would have made for great tv.

        1. blackcat*

          Our very own worked on a Hellmouth poster really ought to pitch a TV show about that property management job!

          2. seeveeargh*

            Great idea! AAM-poster-previously-known-as-Hellmouth — can you please pitch your time there as a show to Netflix? I would watch that in a heartbeat.

            2. Lilith*

              Please not on netflix. I know I’m probably the last holdout, but I want to watch Hellmouth’s series too!

    6. Youth*

      Fast food. Mostly because I think the average consumer needs to understand what working in fast food is like so that they can stop lording it over the poor fast food workers.

      When I worked in fast food, one of our cooks got arrested, someone defecated in the urinal, a kid with a highly contagious virus threw up on the playground, our manager and cook started secretly dating (which wasn’t allowed), at least one customer refused to pay and just drove off with their ice cream cone, someone from a movie set placed an order for 50 grilled chicken sandwiches, an old man customer hit on all the young female workers, another old man customer kept bringing in coupons for another restaurant/for an item we didn’t even sell and then got sad when we wouldn’t give him his roast beef sandwiches, my teenage coworker hit on me even though I was in my 20s, someone stole a cardboard cutout of an astronaut from our space-themed marketing campaign, and a visiting linguist stared at me and made weird comments about my accent. And, of course, lots and lots of grumpy, rude, and nasty customers.

      That’s just what I remember.

  102. I hate the offseason.*

    I’m just finishing up a stage of a big project. Once the contract is awarded, I’ll be doing contract/program management, but that should taper off after a few months. My great grand boss was chatting w/ my and asked what I wanted to do next. Interesting, b/c my boss/grand boss usually give me taskers. I’m a lawyer, and the project is legal-related, but I’d like to get back to doing more legal work than program work, but that is dependent on assignments as they come in from the boss (I work for a Gov’t agency and the intake is set up through them.) So this threw me off a bit, but could be a big opportunity if only I could think of something I’d really like to take on. I already run the Community of Practice and have legal projects that I’m working on. They often make me work on organizing conferences (arranging topics/speakers more than logistics), but that isn’t all that interesting to me.
    So, what types of things do you think about when faced w/ this situation? I am probably a bit underutilized for my skill level/pay grade.

  103. Katniss Nevergreen*

    I am a freelance writer and social media strategist. I am looking to get back into the world of salaried/hourly work and I checked out a few positions in my area. One looks a bit promising. It is part-time (for now) and works well with my childcare constraints. However, after the first interview, the employer (and owner of a small company) asked to see my portfolio even after I showed him examples of my work. No biggie. I sent him a link later on to an even more expansive portfolio. He said thanks and we’d touch base on a particular day in the week. I didn’t receive a call back that day so I called him the next day.

    He said he was impressed, yada, yada, yada, but wanted another sit-down. He told me he wanted a detailed plan from me on what I would do to grow his business. Alarm bells went off. I have had loads of people who wanted to see, “a detailed business strategy,” just to take it, incorporate it and never call me again. Due to this, I’ve instituted a consultant fee when business owners ask me this. I usually begin with, “I’m looking for a position where I can positively impact your business. I’ve shown you what my track record has been in the past. If you’d like a more detailed strategy tailored to your business, I offer affordable consulting rates.”

    Is this the right way to go about it? Does it sound like he wants free consulting services? What do you all think?

    1. BuildMeUp*

      It sounds like that might be what he’s doing. He could also just not understand the amount of work he’s asking for.

      Maybe frame it as, “Normally a detailed business strategy would take me X hours to complete, and my freelance rate would be $Y. Given that, I can offer you [a more general plan, or whatever you’re comfortable with], or we can talk about a contract.”

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Yes, I’d talk about consulting rates with him IF you want to work with him.
      Yes, I think he wants free work. I think he tried to get his free answers out of your previous work, but failed. Where is your time best spent?
      Best of Luck.

    3. Krickets*

      Hi! I’m in the same boat with doing freelance in that field and wanting to go back into salaried work and a team environment. It’s a good thing that your alarm bells went off because sometimes when people hear “freelance” and “social media” they really think it’s a good way to take advantage because you’re looking for a job. They may also undervalue how difficult social media is and think it’s an easy “pick your brain” situation. Thanks to AAM and what the other commenters have mentioned on here, I second with going the consultant/hourly rate answer.

      (I’ve seen a public university that I want to apply to ask for a marketing plan as part of their job description and I’m very tempted to just give a one-page sample instead and say the rest is confidential/redacted, hope they understand)

  104. Alice*

    My company uses stack rankings — such and such a percentage is “excellent,” such and such a percentage is “needs improvement,” and such and such a percentage is “meets or exceeds expectations.”
    My boss has told me straight out that, although my performance has been excellent, I’m not going to get the excellent label this year because it’s other people’s turn. To be fair, he was warning me about this as early as last year.
    When I first heard about this, I thought, “not ideal, but ok.” But now that it’s actually happening, I am feeling more disgruntled than I anticipated.
    I am interested in advice about how to feel more “gruntled” and, if you have it, advice about whether/how to raise it with my boss or other leadership.
    For context, my boss and the leadership that I can actually talk to don’t have the power to change this. Also, the labels influence raises.
    Thanks!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Hmm. Several people do equally excellent work, and since only 1 or 2 people at a time can be rated excellent, they take turns getting the excellent rating? Messed up, but I can see that powerless people are trying to be fair within a system that literally makes fairness impossible.

      People have varying qualities of work, but everyone gets rated excellent on a rotating schedule, because it’s their turn? More messed up, and not even trying to be fair (because let’s remember that equal and fair are not the same thing).

      1. Alice*

        I don’t know for sure, but I think it’s the former. That’s definitely how my boss explained it to me at first. And except for this, my unit is pretty well-managed — there is no “missing stair” person who is taking her turn with the excellent rating, at least.

    2. CatCat*

      Since the labels influence raises, I would absolutely bring it up with the boss. I would not be trying to act like I was okay with how things are done here nor would I be trying to make myself feel that way. Because it’s messed up and I get to be frustrated by having messed up policies foisted on me. “I am disappointed that despite you informally rating me as excellent, I will not be receiving that as my official rating. As you know, the official rating influence raises and it is incredibly demoralizing to know I am going to be denied a raise that I have earned.”

      If this is a significant chunk of change, can you parlay your excellent work into applying for jobs where you would earn that amount of money?

      1. CatCat*

        The more I think about it, the more I am baffled by the whole concept. Why use a system that ensures you will never, in reality, have a team of excellent employees (because either they’ll leave over this nonsense, or they’ll just start performing at a lower level because there is no point to performing at a higher level)?

        1. Alice*

          I know, right? But this comes from our parent company (meaning, seven levels from me), and it’s not going to change. But as long as I stay, I don’t want to give in to the temptation to start performing at a lower level.

          It’s not a hugely significant difference in the raise — partly because my unit’s leadership doesn’t like the stack ranking approach, and partly because even the “Excellent” rating raises are not a lot. In a way this makes it harder to raise, because the practical impact is exists, but is quite small. Think of the script that you suggested — it’s one thing to say “it’s demoralizing to know that I am going to be denied a raise that I have earned” and another to say “it’s demoralizing to know that I am not going to get the gold star for being the best student in third grade homeroom.” I feel like a Well Adjusted Adult would say, who cares? I didn’t think I cared! But now it turns out I do….

        2. Nicki Name*

          This used to be popular in the tech world (Microsoft especially, which has since abandoned it). The idea is that you rank everyone from best to worst and get rid of the lowest 10% (or whatever) each year. Eventually companies started to realize that if their hiring process was working well to begin with, all they got from it was enforced churn and disgruntled employees.

          1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

            The other problem is that mathematically, it doesn’t work. You have to have a group that has at least 30 people to get a proper bell curve (stack ranking assumes a statistically normal distribution of performance ratings, which needs at least 30 people), and at most 10 people for the boss to be able to accurately assess everyone. There are no integers that are simultaneously less than 10 and more than 30.

            Even if it works the first year (because you’ve gotten rid of people from previous bad hiring cycles), unless you’re replacing those people with more bad hires, you’re quickly going to run out of bad employees to fire, and good employees will leave on their own. (Actually, even if you do bring in more bad hires, the good employees will still leave on their own rather than work in a company that doesn’t know how to hire or retain good employees.)

      2. Sam Foster*

        I’m pretty sure Microsoft was one of the first and biggest to do stack ranking and, if memory serves, moved away from it for the exact reasons noted in the response to this comment. I’ll reply to myself with an article I found referencing the change.

    3. PeteyKat*

      Just so I am understanding this correctly – only one person (or a very few) can get an excellent rating at a time? I would find it very difficult, if not down right impossible, to feel right about this, especially if I work hard everyday and have, not above average, but excellent performance. If they can’t give you a raise, can they give you more time off or more flexibility in your work day? Something like that to compensate you? Good luck – I think any work place would be lucky to have you!

      1. Alice*

        Yup, a set percentage of each unit can get an excellent rating. I don’t think it’s logical to assume that every unit has the same percentage of excellent performers, even if you want to use a set percentage in the first place!
        I already have a pretty high degree of flexibility — which is working to keep me here even when I’m feeling dissatisfied about the rating. Thank you!

    4. Nessun*

      No suggestions really, just support. My company is the same – there’s a system for evaluation, but it can get highly political. (I’ve been told “you can’t have the highest grade because everyone wants their team to have the highest grade so we have to take turns”!) Our ratings also influence raises. I’ve made a point to talk to my boss about what I make, and what I should make, so he understands where I feel undervalued (and by how much), and he does keep his eye out for opportunities outside the box – like paid learning, conferences, WFH chances, and bonus programs he can use for me. So it’s good to talk to people, to see if there’s something they can do, even if their hands are tied over actual salary.

      1. Alice*

        Good advice, thanks. It’s similar here — there’s some openness to supporting professional development.

    5. Anon for This*

      My company works the same way, with the stacked system and bonuses and raises are both tied to them. It’s extremely frustrating. Even worse, all evaluations have to be calibrated at the EVP level, which means if you great grandboss doesn’t know your work, you can get knocked to a lower level. Your boss can give you an excellent rating and then find out right before the evaluation meeting that it got knocked down to solid. Ask me how I know.

      It’s extremely dis-incentivizing. Why would I work my ass off and be recognized as a high performer but not get recognized for it?

  105. k*

    When should one just give up on the idea of a career? I’m in my early 30s, and the story of the past decade of my life is being stuck between phases of unemployment and of awful freelance/contract/temp positions, applying for the few jobs I am qualified for, and not getting them because of lack of experience/leadership potential/soft skills/likability. And because I haven’t gotten those jobs, people point to my lack of experience, and the cycle continues. I despise freelancing but can’t think of a field I would be good in, or more pertinently that would want me. My only skills, such as writing and editing, are deemed interchangeable by employers and sometimes unnecessary. Meanwhile all my peers got senior roles years ago, or roles on that track. I have no idea what to do. I want a career with growth potential and would love to be a CEO one day, even, but I can’t get past below the ladder.

    1. HRAwry*

      I think writing and editing skills are very important and point to skills such as clear written communication, attention to detail and the ability to give critical and complex feedback. You didn’t mention the types of roles that you are interested in – maybe flushing those out would help you find entry-level/mid-senior level roles that you’re interested in.

      1. k*

        When I say “interchangeable” I mean that if someone is hiring someone whose writing is better over someone who has management experience, or someone they’d love to get a beer with, they will choose the latter two every single time, since their writing is “good enough.”

        The problem is that my field is falling apart, and there are very few jobs in it (a job posting I am qualified for appears maybe twice every year; most are not posted). And being in my thirties I am seen as too old for entry level jobs, since I had one (at 22) and lost it.

        1. Gumby*

          The idea of *a* career or the idea of *a particular* career? It sounds to me like you might want to explore other careers outside of writing / editing but I still think that there is a possible career out there for you.

          You sound frustrated, which is understandable! Having periods of unemployment can really wear you down. But I am positive that you have, or could grow and nurture, other skills. And it looks less weird to get an entry level job at your advanced age (heh – seriously, you are not that old!) if you frame it as a career change. There are plenty of roles where writing skills will come in handy even if they aren’t in the job title. Since you don’t know what you want to do exactly, can you use your next break between freelance assignments to go on informational interviews? Explore a few other potential careers and see if one of them clicks for you?

          1. k*

            The idea of being able to say something like “this is where I want my career to go” and then actually having the ability for that to happen, and to be any more meaningful than “this is what I want to do when I win the lottery from my mansion on Mars in 2555.” People do not see me as employable and they certainly don’t see me as employable in any position of power. I recently was rejected from a job for the latter reason.

            30 is old in any field which targets a standard 18-34 demographic, which unfortunately is a lot of fields. It certainly is the case in the place where all my experience lies.

    2. YetAnotherUsername*

      It’s never too late to have A career. However it may be time to give up on THIS career.

      You tried your dream job, it didn’t workout. That actually happens to a LOT of people. It doesn’t make you unemployable in general. But you may be unemployable in this field.

      Try a different field. 30 is young. You could go to college for 4 years, come out with a qualification in a totally different field and still have easily 30 years of a career ahead of you.

      1. Mazzy*

        Yes I agree. It sounds like you’re trying to get a career in some sort of writing or publishing or marketing role, and those are either notoriously hard to break into or earn a decent living in. I could be wrong though. But anyway, I started out as an Excel-PowerPoint junkie back when those were skills, and found it easy to get jobs, even if they weren’t extremely high level. I think you need to pivot into a different role. Is writing really that important to you? Maybe you should do some on the side, instead of stressing yourself out and keeping your adult life on hold while you try to make it into a career.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          It sounds like you’re trying to get a career in some sort of writing or publishing or marketing role, and those are either notoriously hard to break into or earn a decent living in. I could be wrong though.

          You’re not wrong. I went to journalism school and graduated in 2009. I had two internships – one where I did marketing communications work for the Olympic gymnastics trials, the other at a literary magazine where I edited stories – and I still couldn’t land a writing job after school, even with published short stories in professional journals under my belt. It wasn’t until 2017, when I was trying to make a career change out of claims adjusting, that I landed a proposal management position. Finally, I was given the opportunity to write and edit full-time, and I’m now a technical/editor writer and communications strategist (among other things) at my new company. Eight years – eight, long, torturous years – it took for me to get a job remotely using my degree.

          Pivoting is definitely something to consider. It allows you to get money in your pockets, which relieves stress, which in turn will allow you to job search for the career you actually want from a position of power instead of one of extreme need.

      2. tamarack and fireweed*

        I second that. I TWICE tried what I thought of as my dream job, and it didn’t work out. I also was unclear what steps exactly I would need to take (and “land”, ie, be lucky enough to successfully take) to be successful. Now, it’s different. I understand what the next steps are. I don’t know, of course, if I’ll be selected/hired, and I know there are many very qualified people in my field. I also know what at least two fall-back options are, which one is easier, which one is harder, which one is more lucrative etc.

        I was brought up in an environment where I *wasn’t* shown what a career looks like, how a workplace works — I had excellent grades, and was told “if you’re just good enough, people will want you”. This is bullshit. It’s bullshit because you have to fine-tune what you’re good at, and how you present that. *Maybe* a research institution or a university or one or two companies would hire a math genius just because they’re a math genius, but I was never genius-level impressive anyway, and for just about anything else you have to be savvy about what your prospective employer needs, and how you can prepare yourself for the exact role you want … and then the next one … and the next one. And in many fields, the details change every few years.

        In my case, giving up on the dream job led me to a path in which now many of my friends envy my satisfaction with what I do.

    3. tamarack and fireweed*

      I kinda felt like that in my early 30s – stuck, underpaid/on gigs, not appreciated. Then I moved countries, got a job in a field I previous considered with snobbery, started at the bottom, but worked myself up quickly (under my first actually competent general manager — what a revelation), solidified my understanding of corporate culture, resisted being pushed into the management track via a lateral move. Then, with finally a few years of solid career credentials on my CV, I ran away doing technical work in a geographically remote environment, got another graduate degree, and am no very employable (though out of personal and family preference, geographically limited, which currently limits my earnings potential — but I would easily get a higher-paying job if I were willing to move). I’m nearly 50 now.

  106. Dept of Unicorns*

    Would it be bad to have two temporary positions in the same company in a row? Will it be off-putting to my references (I use the same 3 ex-bosses) if I have to ask them again for a reference, if my second temporary position doesn’t become permanent?

    I’m currently trying to figure out what to do career-wise since my original Biology degree didn’t work out. I applied and am finishing up a program aide position where I help my supervisor with his various programs, since his field was something that I was interested in. But now I’ve learned that I don’t want to pursue that field as a career and am moving onto job hunting for the next step.

    However, I was able to meet a manager in the IT department and got really interested in IT after talking to them about their job, the different entry roles for IT, etc. I’ve always thought about IT as a career choice so speaking with them was pretty fascinating. I told the manager about my interest and they told me that there are float/temporary positions available and to contact them if I ever needed help.

    The issue is that I’m not sure if I should focus on a stable job that helps me pay bills so I’m not sure whether to pursue this float/temporary position if there’s a big chance of it not becoming permanent (the posting was iffy on whether there were any chances of advancement – they need new people due to a big upgrade in the system coming up). I’m also worried that I’ll piss off my ex-bosses if this IT float position doesn’t work and I’ll have to ask them for another reference for the next job afterwards. Which would be the 3rd reference request of this year. I honestly really like the vibe of the IT department (I was able to join in on a tour) and know that this company gives great benefits, if I were able to become full-time…

  107. mkash3*

    Last November, I applied at a company and passed the phone interview. I cancelled my scheduled interview with this company because two days prior, I received an offer from a different company which eventually underwent a hiring freeze and the offer fell through, so I reached back out to the company I cancelled with and informed them of my situation. They said they thought I would have been a great fit for their position but unfortunately the job had been filled. Soon afterwards, the company re-posted the job again in February of this year; being that I already passed their phone screen, I thought I had a good chance at securing an interview. I applied and never heard anything. Recently, in May, they reposted the job again. I applied for a third time and never heard anything.

    They recently reposted the job again this week. Is there any point in applying again or have I been blacklisted permanently for cancelling their interview? It just seems odd that they said I would have been a great fit based on my phone screen but seemingly do not want anything to do with me after cancelling the interview.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      My guess is you’ve been blacklisted. It’s an unfortunate situation but once you cancelled your interview, this company must have viewed you as too flighty to continue in the interview process.

    2. stelms_elms*

      Just so I’m clear about the details…they posted the same position three times in seven months? If that’s the case, you might consider yourself lucky you didn’t take it the first time.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Then they either can’t find what they’re looking for (their requirements are either too broad or too niche) or they did, but the person left, then it happened again – yeah, I’d let this one go.

  108. Workplace Romance*

    Hello AAM commentariat! I have a question about workplace relationships, and I’m hoping you can help me.

    I am an entry-level employee of Department X, which is a subset of Division A. There is also a Department Y, which is under the leadership of Division A as well but has little to do with Department X. I was interested in getting into Department Y, so I signed up for our Division’s official mentorship program and got matched with someone high up in Department Y. I was very excited about this, as I’m very interested in the technical aspects of Department Y and thought this would be a great way to learn.

    Fast forward eight months or so, and this mentorship relationship has turned romantic. I won’t go into details, but rest assured it’s mutual and he’s not taking advantage of me (as I’m sure that’s what some minds leapt to). I know that I can no longer move to Department Y, given our relationship, but I’m wondering if I’m going to be able to stay at my job? I don’t like it much, so I’m not opposed to leaving, but I don’t want to lose a certain great benefit and I don’t want a ten-month stay on my resume. We agreed he wouldn’t leave since he’s been here longer and has a higher position; it would be harder for him to find work.

    What do you think I should do?

    1. fposte*

      What’s the company policy on dating? To me I wouldn’t see a problem since you’re in two different departments, but you should separate from him on the mentorship ASAP to make it clear you’re keeping work and play separate.

      1. Workplace Romance*

        Policy is that dating is okay as long as you aren’t in the same management chain. I will definitely break the mentorship relationship for the reason you mentioned – I guess I just feel strange about going from a mentorship to a romantic relationship, especially since I’m a younger (late twenties) woman in a male-dominated field…I feel like it doesn’t set a good precedent. But that’s my baggage and not very work-related. Thank you for the response!

        1. fposte*

          If people don’t hear about it, it’s not a precedent. That doesn’t mean you should sneak around–you absolutely shouldn’t–but a common template is “you wouldn’t know they were married from the way they are at work.” I’d go for that.

          1. Workplace Romance*

            We’re both non-demonstrative people and hardly interact outside of division-wide meetings (about once a semester), so I don’t think being subtle will be a problem! I guess if people see us out and about together, we’ll just have to be matter-of-fact about it.

        2. Nicki Name*

          Don’t apologize for feeling strange about this! Mixing romance with an unequal power relationship like mentor-mentee is a bad idea even if it’s not strictly against company policy. Keep listening to your instincts.

          1. Workplace Romance*

            Well, that’s the thing. It doesn’t feel unequal, and I feel we went about it in a mostly sensible way, but I worry about the perception more than the actual relationship, if that makes sense?

            1. Dr. Anonymous*

              It does make sense in a way, but it does worry me that as a matter of course it’s the early-career person who’s going to have to take a career detour. That’s the big concern to me with romance within the context of power imbalance. Unless there’s blatant harassment, the senior person will be just fine.

              1. tamarack and fireweed*

                “it’s the early-career person who’s going to have to take a career detour”

                Take this from someone who, for the AAM community, is *less* than the average opposed to workplace relationships: What Dr. Anonymous says here is *exactly* what unequal power imbalance means. It’s not your fault, or your partner’s. It’s all very reasonable etc. It’s not as if he could somehow, by force of wish, become the less senior employee.

                The reason I’m less than average opposed to workplace relationships is that I believe that finding real, sustained love is a wonderful and miraculous thing, and when it happens at your work, so be it. However, it’s a fact that most relationships end in a break-up , and then you’re stuck at work. So IMHO, I’d take things 10 times slower than with non-work encounters (you already can’t do that :) !) and be prepared to be 10 times as mature about dealing with potential hiccups.

                So what to do? I can’t tell you. But if you already don’t like your job toooooo much, why not put out feelers for other position. It may be a pretext for finding a job that is overall better for your career than the one you’re at. But if nothing comes up, as long as you aren’t violating workplace rules, no need to over-fulfill. I’d be discreet though for the first few years, if you see yourself sticking around at the company for so long.

        3. Holly*

          It really also depends… in my field it’s common to have romantic relationships within the field, and it’s not a problem unless there ethical issues intertwined, which here there might not be?

          1. Workplace Romance*

            We’re staff at a university. I don’t want to say exactly what we do for anonymity’s sake. This is my first time working at a university so I’m not sure if this is typical or not!

            1. tamarack and fireweed*

              Again, it depends. I’m at a university, too. The closest larger city (> 100,000 inhabitants, also with a university) is over 400 miles away. So, there are a lot of couples here who both work at the institution. There is a grown-up attitude to it. I recently started in a program that has a small admin team, and the coordinator introduced herself to me saying “my husband is X, and he told me about you — so happy to finally meet you!” X and I shared an adjunct instructor office last fall.

  109. PokePolka*

    Could I get some thoughts on what type of job to go for? I’m currently enrolled in an online degree program for tech and honestly just need a job for the money… Or so I thought? It’s become a bit more complicated:

    Job #1
    + Full-time with good benefits
    + Utilizes my former work history in healthcare so it’ll be easy for me to start the ground running
    – Meh salary ($15/hr starting)
    – Longer commute – 2 buses (I don’t drive in my city due to past car accident traumas)

    Job #2
    + Better pay ($19-20/hr starting)
    + Easier commute – 1 bus
    + Kind of more related to my new tech degree
    – 3 months temp position with little chance of turning into full-time, according to the job posting

    I’m leaning more towards Job #2 since I’m hoping to really hustle and try to convince the manager to hire me full-time. But my more common-sense side says to take Job #1 since the money will be steady and I’ll be able to pay off my degree faster.

    1. Colette*

      I would take Job #2 because I value an easier commute (but it depends whether it’s 30 minutes on 2 buses or 2 hours on 2 buses). I also like that it’s more related to your tech degree. However, I wouldn’t plan on getting hired full time there, since they are telling you up front that they’re not going to do that. If you take it, I’d start looking for a job when it ends.

      If you value the longer-term aspect of the job over the potential career development and commute, take job #1.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Same. I’d take Job #2, put it on my resume ASAP, and around month two, start applying to tech jobs through recruiters and direct hire agencies. You need more than a degree to get tech jobs – you need experience. You won’t get it taking Job #1.

    2. fposte*

      I wouldn’t take job #2 under the hope that it would turn into a full-time job; I’d only take it if I would be okay with a three-month temp job. Now maybe it would be a better job to build on in general, not just at that company. But assume you’ll be job-hunting in three months and make your decision accordingly.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        This. How hard is it to find jobs like this? If not too hard, I’d take job 2, but start looking for the next job right away. I wouldn’t take it expecting to be hired longer-term.

    3. CatCat*

      Job #2 has been up front with you that it is unlikely that this will become full-time. I think going in and working hard is a solid plan (for the reference alone even, especially since it is more related to your tech degree), but only if you can afford to be be unemployed after the 3 months.

    4. Alice*

      I’d go with the easier commute. You’ll have more time to do schoolwork, network, and apply for fulltime jobs. It’s also so important to have a reference related to your new career path. Go in knowing that its temporary and plan to wow them — not because you hope it will turn permanent but because you really want the good reference. Good luck!

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      If you need a full time job that will stay full time, take Job #1. Job #2 says it has little chance of turning full time after the 3 months are up, so believe them.

      That said, if you don’t need a full time job, or are OK with looking for a new job to start after the 3 months at Job #2, a job (even a 3 month temp job) more related to your new degree will probably help you more after you graduate. But that’s only if you’re OK with being a job seeker again in 2-3 months (shorter time since you’ll likely want to start searching before the 3 months are up).

    6. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’d lean towards Job #1 and it’s really not close. My experience with staffing tells me that if a company says there is little chance of turning full-time they actually mean there is zero chance it turns full-time. I’d also want to know why they have it slated for 3 months. Are you covering for a medical/maternity/paternity leave..something that is defined? Or, is this just helping out to catch up on a backlog of work? If it’s the latter, I’ve seen countless scenarios where 3 months turns into 4 weeks.

    7. Another JD*

      I’d take Job 2 to further your experience with your new degree. Keep job hunting during the temp job.

  110. Lars*

    This is such a weird question I need advice on and might not really fall under a workplace thing, but here goes. (Thank you for everyone who helped me a few months ago with the boundary pushing coworker!)

    I work in an office where everyone shares their hobbies and activities for weekend and after work freely. No expectation to do so, but everyone is pretty easygoing, so I don’t mind. About two years ago, I suddenly was able to get tickets to a very hard-to-get band, and asked for some time off to see them. A few people asked questions about the band, including my big boss.

    Since then, and this has been a steady ramp up, my big boss will literally ONLY talk to me about this band in his fleeting morning hellos. At first it was kind of fun that he remembered, but two years in, I am getting really put out by this. I am a consistent high performer who has done multiple complex projects for him. I feel like I deserve to not be the only one in the office reduced to this. It’s gotten to a point where I feel like I’m being CALLED by the band name and not my real name.

    Were this person a coworker or on my level I would have told them to cut it out, but this is a high level executive. I don’t know that it’s even worth escalating because it’s not affected my ability to be put on projects, nor do I want to make my personal life verboten. What to do??

    1. animaniactoo*

      Cheerfully tell him that while you still appreciate [band], you’re now more into [something, ANYTHING else] and give him a couple of bullet points for why. And then just decline to talk about [band] again. If he wants to bring it up again or doesn’t accept the deflection, just shrug and say “Eh, we’ve talked [band] to death. What about you? Anything interesting going on?” or some work-related question and bean dip your way out of it.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      My former grandboss did this with me and my newfound love of running at the gym. Every time he saw me, that’s all he ever wanted to talk to me about. It was annoying, but I could tell he was trying to be jovial with me since we really didn’t have much in common other than running and work. Try to direct the conversation elsewhere if it’s really bugging you – bring up your own accomplishments if you have to.

  111. onefootoutthedoor*

    My company is going through a huge reorganization. With that, people are being moved into other positions. The position may or may not be related to the work that they were hired for (think teapot handle maker now being given a role as teapot sales). If they decline the new position they are voluntarily leaving and will not be given a payout. This doesn’t sit well with me in my gut.

    Anyone have any advice or experience with this?

    1. New Job So Much Better*

      Went through the same when the bank I worked for merged. As soon as I heard the plan, similar to your company, I started looking and found a much better job where I didn’t have to worry if I’d have a job the next day, or have a different position the next day. One coworker who stayed had her pay cut $8k. 2 years later she is the only original left and the bank has been merged again. Good luck with yours, I’d start looking.

    2. periwinkle*

      No advice, just empathy. My division did a massive re-org last year. We had the opportunity to talk with managers (our own and those leading teams that interested us) and state our preferences, but in the end people were moved around by management decisions. If you were offered a demotion (pay level decrease), you could decline and have it labeled a layoff (thus getting severance benefits. If the offered role was at your current level or higher, declining equaled voluntary termination and thus no payout.

      Will people be expected to accept positions with pay cuts, or is your org excluding them from the declining = quitting equation? Do people have any input into their new roles? I think it’s that measure of control which differentiates “this is an opportunity” from “this sucks and I can’t do anything about it.” (whether or not we actually had any influence, I don’t know, but at least we felt like we did)

      1. onefootoutthedoor*

        They aren’t demoting people salary wise (which is something I guess). But its more about the “I have no interest in sales, that’s why i’m in operations” type thought process. I suppose people will just take the jobs if the alternative is severance and then start looking for other jobs.

      1. Jen2*

        I’m pretty sure that would be considered a Constructive Dismissal in the US, so you’d still qualify for unemploy
        ment.

  112. PCB*

    I’m curious about how someone becomes an Adjunct Professor (in addition to a full-time marketing position at a very well-respected company). Has anyone here pursued this path? What kind of resume do you need to have? If you’ve done it, how did you make it happen and did you like it?

    Thanks – looking forward to any insights.

    1. Rainy*

      You need a CV, and you apply to any openings, or else reach out to the head of department in your discipline at a school you want to teach a few classes for and ask about opportunities.

      Remember that adjuncting is extremely underpaid (it’s paid as piecework, basically), especially for the amount of work it takes to teach a postsecondary course successfully. The last time I was offered a “full-time adjunct” position (it would have been a 3/4 load, which means 3 courses in fall, 4 in spring–“full time” teaching for professors is usually a 2/2), and when I totted up the hours I would spend on 7 courses, most of which are what’s usually considered “overload” courses for students, and divided the pay by that number, it came out to less than $2.50/hr of my time.

    2. fposte*

      What is interesting to you about this prospect? Is there a reason you focused on adjuncting rather than teaching, say, an extension course?

      In addition to the kind of adjuncting Rainy describes, it’s not uncommon in professional schools for successful professionals in the field to teach a course or two per semester. Usually networking or field profile are key there, though; I think it’d be a hard get as a cold call.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        At my institution, adjunct-teaching and “teaching an extension course” is admin-wise the same thing, and you’d be called “adjunct instructor” job title wise. But there *is* a difference between filling a gap in, say, developmental math, geography 101, some other big intro course with multiple sections (=classical adjuct teaching) and offering a specialty class that your career qualifies you for.

        In both cases, you’d inquire at the department (academic program) head level. Your letter would be slightly different in either case (“I am interested in offering a course in introductory bicycle maintenance in your REC “recreational” program… I foresee about [x] number of students… I’ve been a professional bike mechanic and wheel builder for 27 years [insert references]” vs. “I am writing to inquire about adjunct teaching opportunities in your department for [semester]. [insert qualifications, especially as they relate to post-secondary pedagogy] [insert why you want to do this]”. Attach CV and a sample syllabus (or refer to a standard syllabus of the institution for classical adjuncting).

        Some institutions have “dummy”/revolving job postings on their web site to collect CVs and applications of prospective adjunct instructors to build instructor pools. You can use those, but I’d always inquire first. Sometimes these are black holes that are still up because no one took them down, sometimes they are what they look like.

        1. tamarack and fireweed*

          I should say that if the OP is interested in this sort of side career long term, *some* (not very many) schools have a non-tenure-track “clinical professor” career track. These are typically long-term part-time positions, and the “clinical” part refers to the concept that the position holders are typically accomplished professionals in their own field, with side teaching appointments that are formalized (and can be unionized, career-tracked etc beyond the “adjunct” situation, which very often has no career tracking to speak of, and very little benefits). I’ve seen clinical professors in medical fields (duh), law, and also in creative writing (where the person may be an accomplished published author).

    3. Asta*

      I’ve been a visiting lecturer before now. A professional contact was teaching there and recommended other people including me.

  113. Product Specialist (Ecommerce, Not Tech)*

    Kind of a win, Kind of a Gripe

    So my boss was out for like a week, and when she came back, she did a short version of my annual review. She gave me mostly praise and the area she wanted me to work on was one where she was already seeing improvement (personality interactions, smoothing out how I word things etc.. I’m only a few years into the Business World but I’m just about to hit my first anniversary at this office). So this is all positive she’s very happy with my progress, she’s happy with my team as a whole (four of us). She revealed that our department (Marketing) is the only one in our company that when my manager is out, our VP doesn’t have to step in to manage us because we handle our own workload and keep the work running as smoothly as if she was here.

    This is all great, very possitive right? Except this attitude isn’t really translating into our pay. My position, and the other 2 people who hold it, makes about 20K less than market rate for my job. Raises happen in April at this company, and I did get a small raise at the time but 60 Cents, does not much of a difference make. And I know that as this is a small company (Under 100 people) there is an expectation that you wont make as much as you would at a large company. However I am kind of struggling with the fact that I have this high-ish level job, Not Super High Level, but management of products with not a lot of direction from above, and make about $2 more an hour than the customer service reps start at at our company. I am not saying that they should be making less, but I’m frustrated that they won’t pay even close to market rate (Like 10K close, not full 20K more) for my job, but they will for customer service (For our area, starting customer service as 13.50 is Low Middle Range).

    Any advice for resetting your expectations? I really like this company otherwise, and I need to stick it out until at least 18 months here.

  114. NoNameForThis*

    One of the high ups at my big company gave feedback to my peer, Betty. They told Betty it came from me and Archie, another peer. Betty came to Archie and I to gain better understanding of our feedback because she thought we knew why she did what she did.

    The thing is that we did know why she did this and we never complained to High Up about Betty doing this nor would we because we have both done it too for the same reasons. High Up made it up completely!

    I am so rattled by this. High Up has some quirks and is sometimes vague about their feedback but I would never have expected them to do this. I have no idea how to move forward on this.

    1. sacados*

      I think in this case Alison’s usual advice of “sincere confusion” is probably the best bet.
      Go to High Up and say something like “Yesterday Betty told me that you gave her X feedback, and she was under the impression that it was a concern I had raised with you. But I don’t remember talking about that in any of our conversations. Can you help me understand where this miscommunication may have come from?”

      Something like that. Not accusing, just “that’s so strange, golly gee I’m stumped!”
      At the very least, if High Up did outright lie, it gives them the chance to say save face like “Oh really, I could have sworn it was you, I must have gotten that complaint from someone else”
      And then at least you’ll know.

  115. Very Thick Glasses*

    Okay, so you’ve heard of thermostat wars… My team is having a war over whether or not the lights are turned on in our section of the office. We work in a room with very few windows, so it is quite dark without the lights turned on. We all work using computers/staring at monitors for hours on end. There are a few people who REALLY hate having the lights on. One will yell that we’re trying to kill him if we turn the lights on. Another told someone who asked if he could just have the light above him on at the dimmest setting, “No, you don’t need that,” and basically ordered him to turn it off.

    I am very very very very nearsighted, which means it’s harder for me to see in the dark and it’s disorienting for me to have to switch between my bright computer screen (which I can’t have too dim or I can’t see it properly) and the dark room. I was also told by my optometrist to not use the super-strength glasses I use to drive (which would help me see in the dark better) at work because it will strain my eyes. So I’m a bit upset over this, but I looked into it and I’m not really covered by the ADA.

    I guess I wouldn’t mind so much if the people who wanted the lights off were nicer about it and acknowledged that other people have needs too? But then I wonder, is that ableist of me, to want an explanation and for them to at least ask? To say, “Oh, I’m sorry, but that hurts my eyes, so would it be too much of a trouble to turn them off? Could we come up with a compromise?” Is forcing everyone to sit in the dark a reasonable accommodation? And, I’m not sure if people really want them off due to medical conditions or due to personal preference, though it does seem like one person does have some sort of medical condition, since he says it hurts his eyes.

    I tried to bring in a lamp for my desk and this coworker told me that it was still hurting his eyes too much. But then later he thanked me for coming up with a solution that was a compromise?

    So am I wrong to still feel kind of disrespected/upset? Some of these coworkers have disrespected me in other ways, so maybe I’m projecting/at BEC? What’s a solution here? Sorry for the long post.

    1. voyager1*

      That is so weird. I would talk to a manager.

      Oh one thing though. The lights are off in my building after 2pm on Saturdays and all day Sunday. It is a little weird at first, but it is only weekends. I couldn’t deal if it was 5 days a week.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Um, they’re being kinda ridiculous. You need light to see. ADA accommodations aren’t supposed to mess everyone else up, so even if someone does have ADA stuff a play, it’s clearly not working right. Bring in your lamp if you don’t want to fight the overhead lights battle. Put it on your desk. If anyone complains, just reply that you need more light to work effectively and if the overhead lights are going to be off, then you’re going to have to use the desk lamp. Use a cheerful & matter of fact tone.

    3. LCL*

      I have gone to the mat, politely, to get the lights kept on. It is a hill I am willing to die on. It’s on the people who want the lights off to figure out how to make their situation workable. For your situation, workable looks like putting the vampires in one part of the room and disable the overhead light over their part.

      For other situations, the fixes can include someone working with them to set up their monitors in a happy configuration re height and reflection and FONT SIZE, looking into getting anti glare screens, and looking into getting computer glasses that have the antiglare feature. The glasses should come from a real optometrist, not the drugstore. People often don’t realize how many options they have to configure their monitors and program displays into something that works for them. It sometimes is as simple as rearranging the desk so the monitor is in a place the light won’t glare off the screen. So far, my experience has been 100% of the employees that have told me they can’t keep up with the company email have their email set on the default settings, which include tiny fonts and minimal contrast.

    4. New Grad*

      There’s a multi-part office lighting saga that Alison has addressed in the past! “my office is fighting about overhead lighting” and its update are from April and December 2014, and the conclusion was “if people like it to be darker, let them have it be darker — as long as it’s not impacting the ability of other people to get the light they need to do their work … Ultimately people’s right to work in space that’s sufficiently lit for their eyes and their work trumps other people’s preference to have it dimmer, so you’ve got to make sure that people who want light do truly get it.”

      Yeah, you’re in the right here. 2014 Alison seems to agree.

      1. valentine*

        I’ve worn sunglasses when I had a headache or something. These people are being so over-the-top (kill?) and contradictory (lamp complaint/compliment) about it, I wonder if they’re testing you by creating a pressure cooker. A Lord of the Lights, if you will.

        Where is your manager in all this? Or is management on Team Office After Dark? (Because the one guy asked permission to use his own light!) Time to loop them in, especially if it’s possible to divide the room, starting with putting Team Light Touch by the windows.

    6. Nicki Name*

      A compromise I’ve seen in past workplaces is to disable the lights above the people who want it to be darker.

    7. Holly*

      First of all, your state may have stronger protections than the ADA. Second, regardless of whether it is covered by the ADA or not (which is HR’s problem, not yours to determine), the lights being off makes you unable to see what you are doing. I don’t think keeping all of the lights off in an office is a “reasonable” accomodation – again something for HR to worry about and not you. I’d talk to your manager right away.

    8. no, the other Laura*

      There’s a basic OSHA requirement for a certain amount of light per square foot of an office building in use / while it is occupied (in other words it can be turned off late nights or weekends): 30 foot-candles, which is about 30 lumens or the equivalent of 1 40-watt lightbulb every 10 feet or so. Your lamp sounds about right.

      You should be able to have task lighting at your desk, at the very least. The usual compromise I have seen is people will disable the light directly overhead their desk, or if it’s more than a few overhead lights that people want turned off they will make task lighting standard at all the desks.

      It doesn’t actually matter if they want the lights off because they are cave trolls or need the lights off for a medical reason. The accommodation for a medical reason would be to move them somewhere they can have the lights as they please without impacting other people.

    9. Very Thick Glasses*

      Ah thank you for the very helpful comments, everyone! My manager is aware of the problem, but also I think kind of scared of the people who are demanding the lights be off? I actually ended up complaining enough to get myself moved, but it took a long time, and there is still a lot of tension over this in the office. I may talk to some others about this and see if they want to all talk to my manager … we may have to band together …

  116. Rainy*

    Just a superannoyance from yesterday that I want to gripe about:

    The receptionist in my office has gotten some weird ideas about being able to control, as opposed to simply book into, my and my colleague’s schedules. She sent me an email the other day ordering me to change the types of client appointments I’m offering. I ran into her in the hall before I read the email (luckily for her, because in person she clearly felt less confident about trying to boss me around) and she said “did you know you don’t have any X appointments?” and I said that yes, since I set my own schedule, I was aware of that, and that I wouldn’t be offering any more of those until [situation] changes, as otherwise I was going to be unable to actually do my work.

    Then I read the email, and was infuriated. I’m keeping it cool because she’s moving on to another organization soon and so there’s no point in starting something, but it pissed me off.

    1. Mazzy*

      Oh my. Not to mention that it’s much easier to gripe about someone not getting more client meetings, but it’s a whole other thing to actually go get them.

      1. Rainy*

        It wasn’t even that I don’t offer “enough” appointments, though. Her issue was specifically that I didn’t have that precise length of appointment on my calendar for the time being. When I said “if they ask for a 30m, just book them for a 50m and if they don’t use all of the time, that’s fine” she looked at me like I was the unreasonable one.

        1. Asta*

          What? That’s insane. It would only be an issue to even mention if it was the other way around!

          1. Rainy*

            As it so often is—my supervisor and I have talked about just not offering 30m anymore because of how infrequently my clients’ estimation of whether their concern is a 30m conversation or not is correct.

      2. Rainy*

        Oh wait, I see what you mean–haha yes, that applies as well. This is our extremely slow season. She has made the extremely erroneous assumption that if she touches a thing she has control over it, which is a really bad assumption for someone in her role to make. I don’t want to sound 5, but she’s literally not the boss of me, and she doesn’t understand the various calculations that go into how I–and everyone else on my team–structure our schedules.

  117. Jessica Fletcher*

    My new coworker is driving me nuts. I work on a very small team at a large company. We just hired a new person for our formerly two person team. I didn’t want to hire this person. My boss initially told me he wasn’t going to hire her due to my objection. But he immediately turned around and hired her anyway. (Not his only untrustworthy move.)

    Now she’s here, and I find her very irritating. She seems to have trouble with some basic computer use. (Yesterday I had to help her because she scrolled too far left and zoomed in, and didn’t understand when I told her how to get back. On a Word doc.) I do not want to be tech support to two people, her and our boss.

    She frequently makes comments about my age. She and my boss are in their 60s. I am in my early 30s. I don’t know if she thinks I’m much younger, but it’s not ok. For example, she gives me tips that I should have done something different in a meeting, and then says, “you’re young, you’ll learn.” She asked me what someone from another department does. I told her what we work with him on, but said he surely does other things, too. She said, “well you haven’t been here long, maybe that’s why you don’t know.” I…am not new.

    Most bizarre are the comments about my mother: She offers me food. I say no thanks. She goes on, “don’t you like this food, what do you like, what did your mother feed you, did she give up and feed you mac and cheese, do I have to call your mother to find out what food you like??”

    I mentioned to my boss that she frequently makes comments about my age, and I don’t like it. He responded, “well how old are you?” SO NOT THE POINT!

    Also: She uses printer paper to elevate her monitor. I do not care and never think about it. A coworker mentioned to me that she might want to order a riser, which has a drawer. New person wasn’t coming in for 90 min, and I was knee deep in tedious spreadsheets. I sent her an email to let her know, because I would have forgotten otherwise. She came in, read the email, and said “do my paper stacks bother you? are they too hillbilly? am I embarrassing you?”

    I kept saying no, and she kept laughing. She seems to think this is fun teasing. She is irritating the crap out of me. She also “teases” me by insisting I’m holding back opinions (on very stupid things). Like, I don’t have a guess at what an acronym on a skyscraper is. She says, “yes you do, you just don’t want to tell us.” No! I really have no thoughts on that and I don’t care!

    She “teases” me the way a parent annoys the shit out of their old teen or adult child. It’s entirely based on age difference. Because she’s new, I can’t tell if she’s doing this because she genuinely thinks it’s funny or if she’s trying to get in my head. She’s older, but I am senior to her, and she’s never worked in this field. It comes off as implying that I’m not qualified to do my job, or not aware of how to function in a professional office.

    And! On Thursday, I found out that she hasn’t had access to the server with training materials. What has she been doing for two weeks?!? I helped her get access, but. Seriously!

    I guess I have to come up with something to say to her, since my boss doesn’t care. Everytime she says something, I’m just kind of stunned. I wish my boss had taken it seriously, because now it will come off as me being zero fun with no sense of humor, instead of “its generally unacceptable to remark on your coworkers age or treat them differently because of their age.”

    2. Gumby*

      Bright side is that, based on your user name, she’s won’t be there for very long. She will either be murdered, or murder someone within a month…

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m screaming inside. Literally start responding to this weird nonsense with “That’s such a strange thing to say.” or “Please don’t bring my parents up ever again, they’re none of your business.”

      Also I make hillbilly jokes about myself all the time because my family are indeed actually hill folk but this is obnoxious, these jokes are for people you know and who get it. Just yuck, she’s obnoxious AF.

    4. Sesame Road*

      Don’t worry about seeming zero fun or humourless, these people’s opinion on such things is worthless. Time to deploy the deadpan “wow. *silence* Anyway, about (work thing…)” and the “Commenting on my age is inappropriate. Please stop doing it.” And walk away.

      Basically, just don’t give them the reaction they are looking for. Be bland and polite and neutrally pleasant to them, and when they start this crap, disengage. If she tries the “do they, do they, do they?” style of questioning, like the paper stacks, you can just look at her and say something like “huh. That’s a weird thing to say. *pause* Anyway, did you want to order the riser?”

  118. ECS*

    I manage a department of 14. Earlier this year, one of my direct reports requested a spot bonus for one of her employees. The spot bonus was not approved. The manager who requested it said the employee would be disappointed. I asked why, since spot bonuses are not commonplace in our organization and I did not understand why the employee would be disappointed unless he expected one. I asked the manager point blank if she had promised the employee the bonus and she denied it. This week, the employee who did not receive the bonus shared with another person in the department that he had been promised the bonus by his manager, who then did not deliver. The person he told then relayed it to me.
    Should I confront the manager about lying?

    1. Rainy*

      Yikes! Rather than a confrontation about lying, maybe first a meeting to clarify the organization’s policies around bonuses–it’s possible that your manager just didn’t realize that your org doesn’t do that kind of thing?–and include a calm discussion about how even when you’re put on the spot, admitting a mistake is better than lying and hoping it won’t be discovered?

    2. Juli G.*

      Manager may have lied. Employee may have lied. Manager may have told the employee they were going to recommended them for the bonus and employee took it as a done deal.

      I would have the conversation with them. “Gertie is telling people that she was promised a bonus and didn’t receive it. I’m concerned about her engagement and how this confusion happened. Do you remember having any conversations with her about the bonus? Do you think she may have thought she was going to get the bonus? How have you followed up her about her disappointment?” I would focus on fixing the engagement issue and preventing this from happening again.

    3. tamarack and fireweed*

      “Confronting them about lying” could be boxing the manager into a situation that may not correspond to reality. It is important to have the conversation you’re going to have with that manager based on actual facts, and not go too far down a rabbit hole based on skewed assumptions. The manager may have said something that wasn’t intended to be a promise to the employee, but taken like it. Or the employee may be going around telling they were promised a bonus, and the manager is too embarrassed to correct it. But even when the manager lied to you when you point-blank asked “did you promise a bonus” the lying, even though you feel stung by it, sounds unlikely to be the underlying problem. There are very few people who don’t use what they consider to be white lies sometimes, and sometimes it backfires.

      What seems obvious is that the manager is having trouble managing their team! How did the bonus expectation arise, exactly? Does the manager feel powerless without the option to offer monetary bonuses? Or was the manager mistaken about being authorized to offer bonuses/unclear about the approval process? Or was a bonus promised on the basis of someone else’s authority? Or is the employee playing games to “extort” a bonus?

      You clearly have to have a discussion with your subordinate manager, but I’d approach it openly, with a view to identifying, and fixing, what’s going wrong. The manager may need coaching.

  119. Roja*

    1) Good news! Husband had a great interview this morning. He loved the place and they expressed a lot of interest in him, so here’s hoping.

    2) I came across this snippet in a job description recently. Is it just me, or does it ring a lot of alarm bells? It’s for a touring arts thing, and I get that that can be hard on families, but still.
    “If you’re a Christian, single, or married with no children, and looking to impact students while having one of the most memorable times of your life, we’ve got the job for you.”

    2. Buttons*

      1) YAY for your husband!! *fingers crossed*
      2) Isn’t every single bit of that illegal??? You must be a Christian, you must be single, and you cannot have kids.

      1. Roja*

        Thank you! He actually just got a call that he got the job and starts Monday. Woohoo!!!

        And yes, I would think it would be normally. It’s probably a ministry though and they can set some different standards for hiring (I know my husband’s former workplace had a statement of faith he had to sign), but it’s the no kids part that really made me do a double take. How is it legal to tell candidates they’re not allowed to have kids? What if they get pregnant during their time there??

          1. YetAnotherUsername*

            That’s exactly what I’m assuming. It’s probably something like going to work in an impoverished area in the third world and converting people there for minimum of a year. Not really suitable for people with minor kids.

            1. YetAnotherUsername*

              Oh I see it’s a touring art thing, didn’t read properly sorry.

              But yeah, it seems like touring around wouldn’t really suit someone with kids. It’s probably a 7 day a week thing touring around for the whole summer, probably sharing rooms with colleagues in pretty basic accommodation. So logically it makes sense to target people without minor kids, even though the law probably says you can’t do that.

              If you had kids your options are basically spend your entire tenure with this group entirely away from your kids, or bring your kids with you, along with a nanny or spouse to mind them, and pay for all their accommodation out of your meagre wages.

              Not having kids or any other dependents that need full time care is probably the only realistic way you can do this type of job.

              So it’s almost certainly an illegal way to hire, but I wouldn’t say its “chilling”. Just people not knowing the law and writing an ad in a way that’s logical instead of legal.

              1. Roja*

                The thing is though, people do that all the time. It’s very common for touring musicians and artists to have families that stay behind while they travel, same as high-traveling businesspeople have homes and families, or people in the military have families, or any number of similar situations. It’s not easy, of course, but people do it all the time. So it strikes me as very, very weird for the ad to state that you can’t have them.

                If they were expecting to put the families up as well (or, as you said, a foreign thing/hardship post), then that might be logical, but the posting was pretty long and there wasn’t anything about families touring too. That would actually be very unusual, as it’s the rare family who can afford for the other spouse to just drop their job and the kids drop their school and travel full-time on a single artist’s salary.

                1. YetAnotherUsername*

                  Yeah, see the thing is, I have a spouse in the military and I found his overseas trip after our kids were born to be extremely difficult. Like suicidal ideation difficult. So I’m actually very in favour of Job listings being accurate about the impact on your life. 200 years ago if you got married you had to stop being a soldier (in my country at least). I actually think it would be good to go back to that I also know a lot of guys who are musicians and went on tour. I don’t know any men who had kids before they went on tour who are still with the mother of their kids. This type of lifestyle simply doesn’t suit families.

                2. Roja*

                  Yes, job postings should be accurate. But there’s a difference between “we won’t hire you if you have kids” and “this job requires near 100% travel; please consider thoroughly if that will be a good fit for you.” Both my husband and I grew up in families where one parent traveled like this, and our families managed it well. Some families are a better fit for the lifestyle than others (I know I couldn’t do it!), but it should be the family’s choice.

                  And I’m still curious as to what they would do if they hired a woman who became pregnant, or if someone they hired had an SO who got pregnant. There’s a lot of issues.

    3. Holly*

      #2 is flat out illegal unless it is a religious organization putting out an ad for a religious tour for kids. Clergy are barred from discrimination laws under the 1st Amendment

    4. Exhausted Educator Was Exhausted*

      Hmm, sounds like the writers of this posting are assuming that single people don’t have kids.

  120. Qistina*

    Bit of a rant ahead.

    I was at my last job for a little over two years. One year in, I got a teeny tiny pay rise (2%…for real) and was “promoted” from Office Management Executive to Office Manager. I was so embarrassed by that ridiculous “promotion” I told my manager not to announce it. Despite going on to do full-cycle recruitment, alongside office management AND assisting the Finance Manager, I was never ever promoted nor did I get a pay rise. When I brought up even just tacking on “Talent Acquisition” to my title, my manager balked and said nope without even discussing it with anyone. I know because she said no right away.

    Last year, I left after my last attempt was denied (I asked a total of three times over a period of a year). I later found out that my replacement was a coworker from an overseas office, who happens to be my former manager’s best friend. She had the same title as me, and carried on with the same title and doing the exact same job duties as me. Btw, she started her job in the overseas office just six months before I did.

    I’m still close friends with one of my former coworkers and she still feeds me gossip slash info from my ex company. The latest news as of this week? My replacement has been promoted to “People Advisor” – one year into her move here and three and a half years into her employment in this company. Close Friend says that Replacement’s job duties will remain exactly the same. Close Friend even says Replacement has received a lot of complaints from other coworkers for always going on holiday (the company offers unlimited leave) and never making sure that the pantry is stocked before she goes away. But I suppose when the HR is your best friend…anything goes?

    And me? I’m bitter. Annoyed. I gave my all at that job and played by the rules. But the difference between me and Replacement is that I wasn’t best friends with my former manager. She and I got along okay but I called her out for taking credit for my work and holding her accountable for her screwups and I guess she didn’t like that. I’m not an ass kisser and I guess I was punished for it.

    Am I looking for advice? Not necessarily. But I welcome any input, commiseration, etc. I’m just…annoyed.

    1. Reba*

      That’s definitely frustrating! I can understand how you’d be annoyed, as it’s totally unfair.

      As far as advice, though…. ask your friend to curb the intel stream. Like, you’d be happier not knowing this stuff about Nepotism Lady, right? Mentally let this workplace go.

      1. valentine*

        ask your friend to curb the intel stream. Like, you’d be happier not knowing this stuff about Nepotism Lady, right? Mentally let this workplace go.
        Yes. Former boss truly is not doing this at you because you left prior to this. Is she abusing her position? What if she is? It was never yours to deal with because her manager lets her operate this way and was zero help to you all those years. You’re free.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah that’s certainly a large dose of nepotism right there, ick. It’s good that you’re out of there and can just watch it be awful from a comfortable distance.

  121. TMI Time*

    I have a newer direct report who overshares about deeply personal things (i.e. their own mental health, abuse in their past, details of sicknesses.) Sometimes, this is lumped in with complaints about work (which can come off as a plea for sympathy), sometimes it just comes out of the blue. It happens in almost every conversation they have with coworkers and many have expressed to me that they find it uncomfortable (and to the point that I saw one of their co-workers burst out laughing at one of their dramatic shifts in conversation from innocuous thing to detailing sickness). A board member spent a shift working with this person and told me she was surprised at how “odd” and “negative” this person acted towards them, even after they knew they were on the board.

    I talked to them about the incident with the board member when it happened, but the oversharing still continues. This is tough stuff and I’m sure they feel helped in some way by being so open, but — and I say this as someone who also has mental illness — I do personally find it tiring and inappropriate when they bring up traumatic things in the middle of a conversation. How can I ask them to rein it in without seeming like an asshole?

    1. fposte*

      Sounds like the answer is “More firmly and clearly than you have.” “Bob, we’ve all got our struggles, but it’s important to focus on work at work. I’m going to ask you to limit conversations about your personal health and history, as they’re distracting from the work at hand. If you’re asked how you are, it’s fine to answer in a sentence, but I need you to break the habit of going in depth with colleagues, especially when it’s not solicited. Can you do that?”

    2. Buttons*

      Yikes! That is a tough spot. I would say something along the lines of “We fully support your mental health and recovery journey, but for a lot of people, those topics are triggering and are often not appropriate workplace topics. I need you to be more thoughtful about what you share.” and if it continues you are likely going to have to be direct “You can not discuss physical abuse with your coworkers. You cannot discuss your mental health issues while at work, unless you need to talk to me about something that is preventing you from working.” She lacks boundaries and she needs to have those boundaries firmly pointed out to her.
      Good luck! Please keep us posted!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re not being an asshole for asking them to remain professional and courteous to their colleagues and other members of your company! You have to make it clear that they have to stop this behavior, as it’s not acceptable and it’s inappropriate behavior.

      If someone was sitting there talking about something gruesome, you’d tell them that it’s making others uncomfortable and they need to stop. Just because this is their own personal life doesn’t mean they’re okay to force it upon others.

      I would approach it as a “You are doing something unprofessional and we need you to be mindful of what you speak about at work.” Just like if they were voicing their racist or sexist opinions, those would be squashed and hopefully not just because of the legalities involved but just because it’s inappropriate behavior.

      Everyone has the right to be comfortable and safe at work. This person is treading on people’s comfort and safety by speaking about these things.

  122. The Chair*

    Ok, so I’m new on having a traditional office job in a big office. So maybe my expectations are off. A couple of us ordered new office chairs and standing desks because it was within budget. Now, we have received them, but the department expects the individual who ordered them for themselves to assemble them. I….. am so lost on assembling a whole standing desk. A new person in the purchase department was like “Are you sure we don’t help them?” And they said “Nope.” This is particularly harder for a woman in the dept who has a bad back. Should we push back on this more? I am going to help around with what I can but I’m not even good at assembling my own IKEA furniture!

    1. Aquawoman*

      I think that is not reasonable of them at all. It’s a big risk, too; if someone gets hurt doing this (or from an incident that happens after doing it incorrectly), that person could be entitled to disability. Big office means there should be a maintenance person who can do this sort of work. And if not, look at the budget to hire someone to come in and knock them all together in a day.

    2. fposte*

      This is nuts. (And bolts, and Allen keys.) Yes, push back. “I’m sorry, but I don’t have the technical ability to assemble a chair to safe workplace standards. Can we arrange a chair for me to sit in until somebody qualified assembles that one?”

    3. sacados*

      If it’s a big office, do you have any sort of facilities department? Seems like someone there could be the right person to speak to and/or might have the knowledge to help put it together correctly.

    4. Holly*

      There are standing desks that are quite easy to assemble, so don’t be too afraid if it comes down to the fact that you have to do it. That said, there should be a facilities person who can help if its a big office.

      1. Holly*

        Note – the facilities person that may be able to help will definitely be different than the purchase office.

      2. New Job So Much Better*

        True. I popped mine out of the box and it was already put together. I just needed help lifting it up on the desk.

    5. Asta*

      Who is liable when the badly-assembled desk collapses?

      Because if it’s the employer, someone needs to help.

    6. ToS*

      Assembly service can be an expense. Some vendors provide the option to purchase the service. Before you go that route, look up a video for how to assemble that particular furniture, as often it’s less than an hour’s effort, for non-IKEA, if you can manipulate the pieces. You do need to budget for the time or expense of furniture assembly.

      I work at a larger place, so we could ask facilities to do that for us, however, it would be placed in their work queue, and it might be a few weeks, if it was not arranged earlier. Additionally, our department would be billed for their time.

      Figure out what needs to happen, and make that progress. Sometimes it falls under “other duties as assigned” other times, if the person with a bad back has a doctor’s note, it is assigned elsewhere. The person in the purchasing department just wanted to be helpful, is all. You just under-thought it, and it happens to all of us when we don’t know what we don’t know…

  123. Boredatwork*

    Hi all!

    I work in a customer service job where I’m on the computer and sometimes have up to 10 minutes between calls. Doing this 40 hours a week I tend to get bored. I read articles, play sudoko, watch Youtube, and sometimes knit or do other crafts. There are a couple tasks I can do as a part of my job but they don’t take that long and still leave me with free time. Any suggestions for things to do or websites to check out to pass the time?

    1. CM*

      Ooh, I WISH I had built-in free time because I’m writing a novel and it takes years. So a time-consuming hobby is my first thought — is there some project you’ve always thought would be cool, a business you’ve thought about starting, some subject you’d love to be an expert on? Even if it’s something more hands-on you could still do research at work, or participate in an online community about it.

    2. HopefulLegallyBrunettte*

      If you’re interested in learning a new skill or about a new topic, maybe a free massive open online course (like Edx, Coursera, etc.) They’re broken down in small chunks of video, quizzes, etc. that can be done a few minutes at a time.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      Sporcle. Lots and lots of Sporcle. It’s a trivia website and it’s amazing (if trivia is your bag.)

  124. dear liza dear liza*

    What are some ways for new hires to learn about an organizational culture? Are there any resources out there to direct new hires to explain why it’s important to learn a culture?

    We hire a lot of new graduates, who are passionate and full of ideas. Which is great! I want new ideas! But not on day 2, and I don’t want them to be so eager to contribute that they actually hurt relationship-building. For example, if you run into the CEO in the lunchroom and she asks how your first day is going, don’t tell her how you’re surprised we’re not using Software X which you learned in school and is so much easier than Software Y. I know you’re trying to be helpful…but you’re not. It’s also really important to figure out norms, so you don’t do things like start a petition to change the dress code (AAM callback.)

    I need to convince these go-getters to hang back, lay low, and do some observing. I can (and do) tell them, but I think many need a more structured approach.

    1. fposte*

      Commenter Lora has posted here about an acculturation doc or presentation her company does, since they get a lot of international employees who don’t know the conventions. Can you create something like that? It could include dress code, protocols for leave, etc. as well as more nuanced stuff.

    2. Grace*

      People have talked about how they had a weekly session of bringing in AAM questions and having an informal roundtable on how they would have handled it. I think the example I saw was a bunch of managers discussing employee issues, but it might work the other way around as well, with letters from new grads or entry-level employees writing letters about red flags or things they thought were bad but were actually normal.

  125. New Grad*

    As a new graduate looking for her first full-time ‘professional’ job (and an AAM reader and somewhat regular commenter for a couple of years now) how on earth do I shake Imposter-Syndrome-but-I’m-not-even-an-imposter-yet?

    I guess I just have very little confidence that anyone would ever consider a new graduate when they could just hire someone who already has practical experience, so why even bother putting in an application if there’s going to be more experienced people applying. (Why, yes, I was labelled Gifted at school and cursed with the ‘If it’s not perfect don’t even bother because if you’re not perfect you’re completely useless’ mindset in response to that label, why do you ask?) I’m finding it incredibly hard to come up with reasonable cover letter arguments for “Here’s why I’m the best person for this job and you should hire me” when I don’t think I’m the best person for any job at all, let alone something office-based.

    I’ve tried for internships, summer jobs, and holiday-period jobs over the last couple of years, but didn’t get any of them, or even any response at all for the majority. I worked in a cafe for a few years while I was at school, a zero-hours cash-in-hand situation, but they dropped me before I turned eighteen so they wouldn’t have to pay me a higher minimum wage. After that, I volunteered for one of my summers home from university when all job applications fell through and got a week’s worth of temp work across scattered days (Student Ambassador for open days) via my uni this last year.

    But honestly? I’ve mostly focused on my studies, and it did pay off, I’ve just graduated with a First (for non-UKers, that’s the top grade, apparently the equivalent of a 4+ GPA) but now I’m just…floating adrift in the sea of my own perceived inadequacy. Help.

    1. merp*

      I don’t know if this is helpful but my mindset right after graduation was this: you’re looking for someone to take a chance on you. Some people won’t, but some people will be excited to have someone who is new and well-versed in recent things in the industry and will have a fresh perspective and have good questions. For me, that made it less “I’m just not as good as everyone else” and more “my youthful enthusiasm is not appreciated here, but somewhere else it will be,” which was less demoralizing.

      1. merp*

        (I feel the need to clarify that I am joking about the youthful enthusiasm bit, lest that be taken badly, but I do genuinely think that thinking of my job search as looking for the right person to take a chance on a recent grad in this way helped out with the difficulty of it!)

      2. New Grad*

        I think the industry bit is what’s also tripping me up – my degree is in History, and don’t get me wrong, I absolutely adored it and wouldn’t go back to choose something different, but there’s much less of a straight line from that to any industry bar academia. Most people I know have either gone into law via conversion courses (not my style), teaching and academia, or are doing the same thing as me and just fumbling in the dark until we find something we want to do.

        I guess I’ll just keep churning out the applications to the best of my ability and attempt to get over the crippling ennui in the meantime. I’m in my early 20s, no-one has their life plan sorted in their 20s, I have time to find ~my calling~. Right now I’m just looking to get my foot on the ladder. Any ladder.

        1. Pear*

          New Grad, I could have written your post when I was…a new grad (although my standing wasn’t as good as yours was/is!) I didn’t get struck with “imposter syndrome” until many years after I graduated, and that was because I was finally in the job I thought I had my heart set on – and I was so terrified of screwing up the opportunity.

          I am rather curious as to what “any ladder” means – does that mean you will take ANYTHING offered? I venture that’s not what it means. When I was starting out, I took a job close to where I was living – sort of in a career path that was what I wanted to do (writing). It turned out to be a lousy experience because I didn’t have nearly any idea of how much the work world was really like. I had jobs during college – but they were always meant to be temporary, and not my “real” life.

          But in many other ways, it was a very good start for me – and actually that first job got me a job making a huge amount of money later on in my work life.

          I didn’t end up with a career path, actually. I ended up with jobs that fit my short list – doable commute, decent money, not a lot of drama. I benefited from having a skillset that focused on my skills that no one really taught me – my ability to compromise, to write and communicate, how to do in depth research, etc.

          Had I to do it over again, I would have taken some time to assess what I really wanted from work from the very beginning. It took me several jobs to figure out what my skills were, and now I find that those jobs that allowed me to build on whatever I thought were my strongest skills were the ones that made me the most happy.

          And that would be what I would focus on in my cover letters and in my resume/CV – that you are interested in the position because you bring strong skills in x thing, y thing, z thing.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      What helps me is to re-frame from “I’m the *best* candidate” (which I literally cannot know from this side of the hiring process) to “I’m a strong fit and here’s why.”

  126. Frustrated w/The Corporate World*

    I was so waiting for the Open Thread this week, because currently I am just feeling so down about work and the whole corporate world in general.

    Background: Approximately 3 years ago I left my ExJob because of a constant feeling of directionless, multiple manager, a corporate move to an expensive downtown city coupled with revoking of WFH privileges, and a manager who basically tried to downgrade my title without my permission or change in work. There was also some possibly shady dealings/kickbacks going on with a high-ranking individual and a vendor. I began to hate it, plus the move to the downtown area meant high commuting cost, which equated to a loss of about $5,000/year. I found another job with an established company and left.

    NewJob: When I started, I really like NewJob. I enjoy my immediate team, duties and the pay, WFH flexibility, PTO and bonus have all been very good. It hasn’t been all sunshine & rainbows, mostly in dealings with another department, but by and large I have been enjoying what I do there and my team appreciates the work I do. NOW: Company has decided to move locations and the new office will be open format. I typically only went in 2-3 days a week, but OF COURSE the mandate just went out that basically says “Company spent money on brand new office and we expect ALL local employees to be in every day.” This does not apply to my team (which is distributed) but it does apply to ME. And it sucks!
    In addition, there has been a lot of head cutting and re-organizing and I am being moved to report under another executive on another team (the one I always had problems with), BUT I still also continue to report to my team lead, so lucky me I have two managers with very different purposes and objectives. What fun! The new manager hasn’t even spoken to me, but apparently my job title will be changed (without my permission) in what they feel is a lateral role. But it’s not! I do so much more for the team I’m on.

    All the reasons I left ExJob are happening all over again. And I don’t know what to do. At ExJob, when I voiced any dissent about the new mandates, It was treated as insubordination and it didn’t go down well, which is why I left a company that refused to listen to reasonable alternatives. I’m trying to keep my mouth shut here and just keep my head down, but I’m afraid this new loss of WFH flexibility will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Because I just won’t do it ‘because the company spent money on an office no employee wanted.’

    I am currently just reeling over all this and getting considerably stressed over it.
    As with ExJob, I don’t really want to leave, but feel hand will be forced over these changes. And that sucks because the work itself goes well. It’s the environment being created.

    1. CM*

      That does suck, but it doesn’t sound like anything you have the power to change. You can’t really “voice your dissent” over big policy changes and reorgs like this — what you can do is say to your manager (whichever one has authority to say yes to you), “I really value the ability to work from home and am more productive working from home because of X, Y, and Z. Is there any flexibility in this policy, especially since the rest of the team is still able to work remotely? I’d like to continue working from home 2-3 days a week.”

      Personally, I wouldn’t argue over the title change AND the WFH — I’d pick the one that’s more important to you.

      1. Frustrated w/The Corporate World*

        I’m ok with the title change as long as it isn’t some type of attempted downgrade and means to pay less, Because titles are important! Though I will surely lose my bonus with the switch. That department does not see much in the way of bonus.

        I’ve just been feeling so downhearted and frustrated and helpless because it feels like instant replay and I am so sick and tired of going through this every couple of years. And no one saw this coming, it wasn’t even a blip when I was hired–believe me I would not have taken the job if there was even a hint of it.

    2. Meredith Brooks*

      I’m sorry you’re having a rough time at work. But, I’m also curious about your relationship with it. You mention both times that your company changed your position or title without permission. But, the thing is that, unless you’re under contract, they can reorganize your position and change it as they see fit. You certainly don’t have to accept their decision (and of course if its discriminatory, then that would be illegal.) But, as someone who has been both demoted and moved laterally, I didn’t have the ability to argue them out of the change in job. I could either accept it or not. The same goes for the environment of your company. You say no employee wanted this new space, but perhaps its cheaper or more efficient or allows departments to work more collaboratively. Maybe it does none of those things, but it’s in a visible neighborhood and they want to create a presence. In the end, it’s the company’s decision where employees can work.

      You may know all this. And if so, I’m not trying to belittle you. I get the impression that you’re feeling a lack of control and its super upsetting. And I think if you focused more on the areas you had control over, you would be more comfortable with your position and the company you work for.

  127. Sarah*

    Reference question: This is optimistic, but hopefully I’ll get an interview at some point.

    For the past eight years, I’ve been reporting to a Board of Directors. Prior to that I was on maternity leave/home with kids, and I’ve lost touch with my managers from previous positions. Would it be okay to use three different Board chairs from the same org as my references? They all supervised me anywhere from 1-3 years.

    1. Little Beans*

      I think that makes sense. You’re still offering several references, they are all people who supervised you for a non-insignificant period of time, and they are your most recent supervisors.

  128. Quadra*

    Question on obnoxious client behavior. What’s the best response to (male clients) asking me (female sales director) if I’m keeping the men in my office/team “in line”, many of which report to me?

    Very male dominated industry, which I’m used to, but this question throws me for a loop. My standard answer with deadpan expression is “That’s not my job” but it comes of harshly. For context, I was in an analytical role for many years and was promoted to director status several years ago. Some of the people who comment knew me before the promotion.

    1. CM*

      “Why would I need to keep them in line?”
      Or other answer that conveys confusion, like you have no idea why they would say something like that, and don’t understand the subtext of naughty men governed by a nanny.

    2. Catsaber*

      I like to go with the “confused” “huh?” or “what do you mean?” that forces them to explain their joke. It doesn’t come off as harsh and it embarrasses them into not asking that again. Most of the time.

    3. fposte*

      Can you beat them over the head with the veneer of customer service? “Oh, no,” you say sincerely and eagerly, “all our staff are truly capable professionals who handle things very well independently! No need for you to worry about that!”

    5. WKRP*

      I don’t like the sexist subtext. So I would say something along the lines of I keep everyone in line… and if you really wanted to toot the horn, you could say… I keep everyone in line, including those who ask sexist questions. (then raise an eyebrow)

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve dealt with quit a bit of this over the years. My response is “They’re professional adults, so they keep themselves in line just fine.” Answer it like it’s a serious question and make them feel the shame of a bad joke ;)

      1. Quadra*

        I like this one the best! Definitely forces them to acknowledge that we’re all independent adults

  129. HouseOfErasure*

    I am really burnt out at my job. I have been there for almost 8 years but now I am ready to move on. I want to try something different. Does anyone have any tips on whether someone like me should try a recruiter? I am worried about doing this. I honestly feel stuck right now.

    1. Nicki Name*

      It probably depends a lot on your industry and job title. For instance, if you’re a software person, then definitely yes because a lot of programming jobs are filled through them even at the entry level.

  130. Auddish*

    So, I’m currently about 4 years post-grad, and I’ve been working in the insurance industry since graduating from college. I’m hoping to transition out of the insurance industry, but I don’t really have any idea of what my next move should be. In the past, I’ve worked in a call center, a theme park, and as a volunteer tax preparer, and I find that I enjoy working directly with clients. I’m definitely on the extraverted side, and one of the reasons I’m unhappy in my current role is because I can literally go HOURS without really talking to anyone while working (it’s a dream job for introverts.) I miss noisy, more chaotic work environments.

    I’m considering moving into the hospitality or the restaurant industry, but it seems like I might have to spend a long time “paying my dues” in low-paying jobs before I would be considered for a higher paying position in either of those industries. Does anyone have any advice for someone looking to make a career switch into the hospitality/restaurant field?

    1. it happens*

      Do you really hate the insurance industry or just the in-the-office-no-interaction part of your job? Because there are plenty of client-facing jobs in insurance. Which may enable you to use what you have learned on the job and not take any steps backwards by moving to a new industry. Maybe try some coffee/lunch dates with people in the company to get a feel for other parts of the company/industry. You don’t have to frame is as looking to get out as much as, now that I have a handle on this part I want to understand how all the pieces fit together…
      Got nothin’ on hospitality. Though there are a lot of sales-related events in insurance which require lots of event planning staff…

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I was about to say – I was a claims adjuster for four years. There was nothing quiet about my job, lol. Auddish, you may want to look into insurance sales or even underwriting if you want client interaction.

  131. Grateful*

    Hello!

    I am one week from finishing a summer “internship” (a job in my field but not affiliated with my school in any way, I don’t get class credit or anything like that) with a fabulous but very small organization (there are 5 of us including me). I have enjoyed my time here immensely and I feel I have learned a ton and developed a good, close working relationship with all four members of the team. They’ve all been wonderful mentors.

    I know “gifting up” isn’t something you should do but I really want to give them something to show my thanks and appreciation on my last day, but I don’t really know the norms around this kind of thing. Is it appropriate to get them a card and maybe a small box of chocolates to share? I don’t want to do anything that will make me look immature or out of touch. Thoughts?

    1. CM*

      I think it’s fine — despite the cautions against “gifting up” on this site, I’ve given small gifts and cards and they have always been well-received and appreciated. Just don’t spend much money and don’t give anything personal. A card and a box of chocolates to share is a nice gesture, especially if you write in the card something specific about what you learned or why you appreciated working there.

    2. JaneB*

      Bringing in treats to share on your last day as a gesture of thanks, and personal thank you cards, are I think perfectly ok – especially in a small organisation

  132. I tried to be chill but you're so hot that I melted*

    I saw a cool job posting on a jobsite and googled the company. While on their company website, I clicked on Careers and saw the job posting there. I decided to apply right away. It was a very simple application, it just asked for my CV ad cover letter.

    A day later I went on the jobsite and I clicked on the job posting again and hit ‘apply’ just to where it led me to. I was directed to a proper ATS, where the application process was more complicated than their website. They asked situational questions, that sort of thing.

    Question: Should I reapply through the ATS? I’m worried my “simple” application would be dismissed based on the awesome answers other applicants might give in the more complicated process. But I also think applying twice would make me look silly? ! What would you do?

    1. CM*

      I’d leave it. You already applied on the company’s website. Presumably they got your application. If they need you to fill out the ATS version, they’ll tell you.

  133. Help me Rhonda*

    Should I include my current job on a job application, even if I have only been there for a few months?

    I’m not sure if I should put it on there because I haven’t been there long and I don’t want to look like a job hopper.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Why are you leaving after a few months? That’s going to be asked and it’s going to look suspicious unless you have a great reason behind it, like you’re moving to another area?

      It depends on the application as well. Some are asking for your job history, which means they want to know all your jobs held, including that one. Others are asking for jobs that are relevant to the the position you’re applying for, more of the resume format.

      Most likely it’s better to leave it off, given it’s a short stay and to look like an employment gap is better in most eyes than looking like you’re quick to give up on jobs [even if you have a great reason for it, like they’re awful to you, etc.]

  134. Lauren*

    Forced Hard Labor Community Service Day

    We are taking a boat to an island to clean swales / dig ditches / move rocks. I hate this idea. We even paid for the privilege usually $1400, but we got it for $700 – a steal for potential injury and lyme disease. The cells in my body want to explode at this idea for every reason imaginable at how awful this idea is. I’m torn at faking BS enthusiasm for my team and telling HR to get it cancelled. 3 guys in the office who are super outgoing think its AMAZING including the 2 bosses and the organizer. Everyone else in the office is cringing at having to do this. Some for not wanting to mess up their backs by moving huge rocks and digging the ditches and others for the intense tick population, which all but guarantees lyme disease or at least having to take the meds for the multiple tick bites we’ve been advised will happen throughout the day. I know people who’ve had lyme disease, the meds are just as harmful. What if people don’t like boats? Bad backs? General fear of a real disease that is no joke? Its all set, and people are flying in for this day. I know I’ll forever have to deal with the inevitable issue of ‘not being a team-player’ over this and how I’m hurting the organizer’s feelings for ‘being unreasonable’ and ‘over-reacting’ so I’m going to have to suck it up, but it makes me want to quit my job over it. I feel so strongly about this, and it also just kills me that we have to sign away our rights to sue too if we are injured. No one is going to pay my deductible for the meds / dr visit if i choose to get treatment for the inevitable tick bites. I had a recent injury, but apparently I’m just supposed to take it easy. We are not a start up anymore. Why do we have to be so outgoing and do hard labor community service days? I don’t know how to keep my mouth shut about this and be a team player.

      1. valentine*

        We are taking a boat to an island to clean swales / dig ditches / move rocks. […] We even paid for the privilege […] multiple tick bites we’ve been advised will happen throughout the day. […] we have to sign away our rights to sue too if we are injured.
        *insert butterfly meme* Is this chain gang glamping? I hope you mean your employer paid.

        “Lol, no,” is the hill I would live on. My ancestors did not endure so that I could go out like this. I hope there are zero African Americans on your team.

        1. Lauren*

          Only white people in our office these days, but that is a dynamic that I didn’t think of. It all feels wrong. Its not inclusive to those that have health issues, or the ones petrified of boats, or the ones that just don’t want to do it. I have usually stood up to this kind of thing, but I’ve gotten a reputation for being combative when pointing out stuff the boy’s club doesn’t like hearing. Basically, anything that isn’t super duper OMG positive – LOVE YOUR IDEA!!! – is considered negative and hurts your image here. Its been brought up enough times in my review that I need to be cautious as I want to be promoted this year. I just keep telling myself, my boss is good, I make market rate, and I have 8 weeks PTO. But I still reserve the right to grumble at insane ideas like this.

    2. Not Me*

      Lyme disease is not something you just pop some pills for and get over it. That’s a chronic disease that will impact the rest of your life in a very negative way. I’d 100% refuse to go on the basis that tick bites are “all but guaranteed”.

      1. Rainy*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t do something where tick bites are guaranteed. My dad has had RMSF, Lyme’s, and Ehrlichiosis, and they are all bad news. If you asked him, he’d tell you to absolutely not risk it.

    3. CatCat*

      Whoa. No way would I suck it up. “I won’t be going. I’m not comfortable with the risk of disease and injury on this trip nor am I willing to sign a waiver of liability for it. I hope the next project can be low risk and inclusive!”

      If I got crap about not being a team player, fine. Getting crap for not being a team player is better than getting Lyme disease or straining my back. And I’d push back on the whole concept of not being a “team player” by proposing activities that people can/often want to do/low to no risk. Things like food/toy/toiletry/school supply drives for those in need. Literally, people who want to participate just have to put things in a box. So easy.

      No way would I be going on that bananas hard labor trip.

    4. animaniactoo*

      Approach as a group? You’ve said you know a bunch of people who are cringing, can you go to HR as a group and talk about being afraid of being labeled as not being team players but having serious issues with the dangers of the tick bites and other physical capability issues that you have among you?

    5. !*

      I am all for volunteering but not where my personal health is put at risk. You should absolutely beg off of this, and others who feel the same should come up with alternative ways to help out and present them as a united front. Any volunteering my company does is voluntary and there are enough indoor/outdoor opportunities to fit everyone’s interests.

    6. Roja*

      Ah… I mean, you know your own work culture and financial situation best, but I have to say that no job is worth the acquisition of Lyme’s diseases, and ESPECIALLY when you’ve signed a waiver and will be fully financially responsible for the consequences. Is the job really worth risking a lifelong chronic illness over?

      I suppose if you really feel that you must do it, you could try talking to your doctor about preventative clothing. There’s got to be protective gear, and whatever it costs it’s surely cheaper than however much you’d spend on doctor’s visits and prescription meds.

    7. CG*

      I know lying is not the greatest, but… in your shoes, I would consider faking food poisoning or something and stay home that day.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Exactly this. Don’t go. It’s not worth Lyme disease or an injury.
        To avoid a Tarzan-style “team building” day in the woods, I was “sick” the day before and the day of the event. (I was NOT going to be harnessed into a sling and jump from tree to tree 40 feet in the air in front of my coworkers. Some of the exercises would require a lot of physical contact among the genders. There were so many bad ideas going on there.) Don’t participate in a Very Bad Idea, but try to accept any post-event verbal chiding gracefully.

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      If this were me, I’d be quietly agreeable until the day of, when I suddenly came down with projectile vomiting and was unable to go.

    9. MaxiesMommy*

      Well I’d bring a lot of duct tape to tape my jeans tightly around the bottom so ticks can’t climb your legs. Same for long sleeved shirt.

    10. Dr. Anonymous*

      I’d be all hung up and then bring them the waiver and talk all about how disappointing it is thatxwith your back you can’t sign something like that. So sad you can’t go. So, so sad. Very sad.

    11. Mellow*

      If it were me, I’d pretend to be ill a day or two before, and get a note from my doctor that I wouldn’t be able to return to work until a day or two after this BS event.

      That “people are flying in for this day” makes the whole thing so weird that “weird” isn’t the word for it.

      I’d spend those “sick” days job searching, too.

  135. Book Lover*

    I have an all day meeting coming up, cel phones to be put away and I imagine it would not look good to take in my crafting supplies. I am sure to talk too much and regret it :(. Ideas for keeping my mouth shut and my brain occupied?

    3. Mellow*

      I make lists: what needs cleaning at home, what to bring on my next vacation, what to add to my work calendar, movies to watch, books to read, Xmas gift ideas, etc.

  136. 5th Rocinante Crew Member*

    Just a quick question, and this could 100% be not my place, or a personal quirk.

    I process scholarship applications at my job, but the only real contact I have with the applicants is brief and through email. Sometimes if their paperwork is in order, not even that much contact. Recently one of the applicants has referred to me, twice as Mrs., through email, when I generally go by Ms.

    It is super rubbing me the wrong way and I know part of that is me. I am married, but chose to retain my last name, and therefore no title change. But also, since I’m dealing with a young man who is still in college, is this something I should gently correct for the benefit of his future contacts in the working world?

    Or is this totally a me problem?

    TIA

    1. ThatGirl*

      I think you should gently correct him as “Ms” and since he IS young and still in college, encourage him not to assume a woman’s marital status or title.

    2. animaniactoo*

      It’s not a you problem, but it’s likely not worth calling out when you have such limited and temporary interaction with them. Leave it to somebody else in the world who will have more standing to say “you keep calling me the wrong thing” to educate him on it.

      If you do end up needing to communicate with him more, you could say “Side note: I didn’t call this out when I thought it was just going to be one or 2 emails and not worthwhile to mention, but please refer to me as Ms. I do not go by Mrs. Thanks!” and let it go from there.

    3. Little Beans*

      I work with a lot of college students and I occasionally get this too. I also prefer Ms over Mrs (even though I am married). However, I have noticed that it is usually men who call me Mrs, and it is often international students. I cut them a little bit of slack because I assume they probably just aren’t as familiar with etiquette as some others might be, and are trying to err on the side of what they think is more polite. And to be fair to these 20-year-old kids, it is really hard to know which title to use! They could very easily use Ms. to some other woman just to be told that she is married and she prefers to be called Mrs. But how are they supposed to know the marital status and title preferences of every college administrator they sometimes have to email?

      My advice would be, if you care, put Ms. in your email signature so that everyone you correspond with knows that is what you prefer. I probably wouldn’t bother to correct it with this student but if you do, I’d phrase it more as “I prefer to be called…” rather than “FYI, you’re doing it wrong”.

    4. Alice*

      I’d just say, “Please call me Ms. Member.” I don’t think you need to explain big picture why Ms is right and Mrs is not, and I don’t think you need to explain why you let it go the first time.

    5. HRAwry*

      I think I’m kinder on this type of error because I didn’t actually know that there was a difference between Miss, Ms and Mrs until University. I thought it was based on preference. Funny enough, when I filled out my first medical form (all by myself) at age 14 I checked off Mrs as my salutation because I liked the look of it.

      That said, I think a soft correction would suffice.

    6. Gidget*

      I don’t think this is an only you issue. I would gently correct the applicant because they may not actually know the difference. I have worked with high school students and just recently when I was discussing email etiquette, one of my students asked me what the difference between Mrs. and Ms. because he truly did not know.

      1. Retired Accountant*

        I was at the Art Institute in Chicago which contains the Thorne Miniature Rooms, with signage referring to them as the Mrs. James Ward Thorne Miniature Rooms . I overheard a young teenage girl ask her father if James was a woman’s name back then, and he explained to her that married women used to be addressed as Mrs. Husband’s First Name/Last Name. After they moved away a staffer commented to another staffer that they were looking into changing that the next time the signage needed to be redone, but would have to investigate the covenants around the gift.

        I hadn’t realized that was a convention young people would be unfamiliar with.

    7. Reliquary*

      I’m a professor. In my long (long, long) experience with teaching college students, the more reinforcement of expectations the likelier the expectations will be met.

      I love it when folks who are not professors take the time to help college students acclimate to professional norms.

      So please do it!

    8. Mellow*

      I don’t think it’s a “you” problem, but this won’t be someone who you’ll be engaging with beyond this context. My real first name has an unusual spelling, and there are those times when I don’t correct people’s misspelling of it because it won’t matter elsewhere, so why bother?

      He’s being polite and respectful, and that’s the most important thing. Let it go. He’ll learn soon enough about honorifics.

  137. GigglyPuff*

    Does anyone have any tips for USAJobs applications?

    I know it’s a long shot because I’m not a veteran or already a federal employee, but I’m going to try anyway. It’s a library/archives job if that makes any difference. I’ve read the resume tips and will be tweaking things according to that, but just wondered if there are any other things.

    And I assume when it says no cover letter required, they actually mean that, versus other places when you should always do cover letters.
    Thanks for any help, I really appreciate it.

    1. SciDiver*

      Cover letters aren’t required, but you should still 100% do it! It will make your application look much more polished if it actually makes it through the screening and referral process. Use their resume builder when you apply, even though it’s ugly and you will never use it for other jobs. When you apply, use the key phrases they highlight in qualifications for each job, and name the accomplishments you have in each task. For example, if one of the requirements is Data entry and Database maintenance, I would have “Data entry & database maintenance: accomplishments 1 and 2, blah blah blah” under the description for my previous jobs.

      1. Policy Wonk*

        In your submission, exactly copy each job requirement word for word, then explain how you meet it. If there are a lot of applicants, the submissions may be screened by computer and if you don’t have the correct word you’ll be rejected. E.g., “Must be qualified in llama grooming.” Do not say “I am an expert in llama grooming” because the keyword might be “qualified.” Say “I am qualified in llama grooming through my 12 years of experience and my expert certification” or whatever, teeing off the wording in the announcement. Address EVERY qualification they request in this manner. Do not assume that the people sorting applications know that a certain certification means you meet qualification x, explain how you meet qualification x. Government HR people are experts in government HR systems, not in the job you are applying for, so information that will be obvious to the hiring manager may as well be Greek to the people who are sort the applications. HR people usually process applications across the spectrum of an agency – from library to IT to lawyers to policy – so while there may be someone who has worked library staffing for a long time and will understand the jargon, it is unlikely.

    2. Not All*

      USE ALL THE SPACE.

      Do not think of it as a resume…think of it as the complete application. Every single thing they need to know about you to make a hiring decision needs to be on there. It needs to use the same words that HR uses, because HR doesn’t know anything about the details of each job. (Example: on mine, if the vacancy talks about “Financial Assistance Agreements” I need to use that term not “Grants” because the HR person is unlikely to know that grants are a type of FAA.

      Cover letters…it won’t hurt you to include one but it’s probably 50/50 whether anyone will actually read it. Largely depends on the background of the particular hiring manager. HR doesn’t care about them and won’t consider anything in it in rating you. I sometimes include them and sometimes don’t…depends if I’m making a series shift or not & feel the need to explain why I want to.

      Good luck! (It’s really hard to get in unless you have preference points of some type, but especially if you are willing to go to less desirable locations it’s definitely doable!)

    3. libguide*

      I’d encourage using the cover letter. If anyone down the hiring line is an actual librarian they’d probably like to read it. I know cover letters have made a difference in every successful librarian gig I’ve had!

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would still do a cover letter. I have been told it does matter. I would also make sure you use whatever phrases they use. So, if they say, “Arrange and Describe Manuscript Materials” than I would use that, not the more common, “Processed Manuscript Materials.”

      Also they will take forever and a day to get back to you. Forever. It’s a super duper slow process.

    5. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

      Mid level management federal employee here. Don’t bother with the cover letter unless you’re applying for an SES (Senior Executive Service) position. I’ve worked for four different organizations in the past ten years and have not seen a single one, not sure if HR even bothers to print them out to forward to us. What you should spend time on is documenting every potentially relevant job you ever had on your resume. The two page restriction on resumes does not apply to federal job applications. Also, look closely at the verbiage used in the announcement and mirror as much as you can. Good luck.

      1. Inefficient Cat Herder*

        Hiring manager/Fed here (non-SES) — we just hired a bunch of folks and the cover letters absolutely made a difference for us.

        So I guess it depends a lot on which organization and what kinds of positions.

  138. Boop*

    As a salaried/exempt employee, do I have to take PTO if I work half a day? My understanding is that I have to be paid for the full day even if I only worked part of it, and the handbook says something to that effect. I asked HR to clarify and they didn’t directly answer, just said that they suggest using PTO when I’m not in the office. It’s no longer an issue because my manager allowed me to work remotely for the time I can’t be in the office, but I’d like to know for the future what the right thing to do is. Seems silly to use up PTO when they would have to pay me either way. Thanks.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      The rule is you have to be paid, but they can require you to use PTO (which means you get paid). Some offices have hour thresholds (as in, you don’t have to use PTO unless you’re out for four hours), but some are more rigid and others are more flexible.

    2. fposte*

      They absolutely can require you to use PTO for a half-day absence, and most places will. What they can’t do is, if you’ve run out of PTO, dock your pay for the half day absence. But generally employers are allowed to and will require you use leave to cover time off if leave is available, whether you’re on FMLA or are an exempt person taking a half day.

    3. Mediamaven*

      It’s not silly. PTO is for out of office occurrences. You aren’t planning to be in the office, correct? If you never use your PTO then you have a constant bank. Charging 1/2 day of PTO is pretty standard.

    5. TGIF*

      I think it really depends on the manager. At my last job, my boss was very lax about it. As long as I got in early and knocked the majority of my work out before lunch, he had no problem with me leaving in the afternoon for an appointment and not taking any PTO.

      At my current job, my boss doesn’t care for half days. Either you’re in or you’re out, and if you’re out, you use PTO. However, I’m also one of a handful of salaried people in an hourly office, so I think it’s more of a status quo deal.

    6. NoLongerYoung*

      Ours is super flexible… so maybe not a good example for the exempt. I get paid for doctor appointments (mine) – my first manager in the group told me that’s one of our specific perks. I get flex if I needed to take Mom or run errands in the middle of the day. If I start working and get sick and go home, I just get paid for the whole day. (Rule is, I make it an hour, I get paid… they’d rather I not work sick). We have core hours, but other than that, my group, you are an adult, you get the job done. That being said – and I’ll post separately on this – I currently work too much and they are super grateful and anxious to keep me. They know if they need me to stay up half the night for a go/ no go call / waiver on a release, I’ll do it.
      We also get paid for volunteer time and have a goal for that as well (I volunteered for our church’s food pantry, and I’ve worked at a food bank and clothes closet).
      There are a few that I “suspect” are not actually working the full 40 average, but not my job to police them. I just do “my” work. Eventually it gets sorted out.

  139. Elly*

    Does anyone else’s office have a pen-and-paper “staff tracker” where you have to go to the front of the office and check off beside your name every day, or the HR lady comes barreling around asking why you were “absent”? The policy is that if you’re sick you email your boss and CC the payroll dep’t, and vacation days require a filled-out form. It just seems so elementary school to track attendance that way on top of the other policies…

    1. sacados*

      That”s… so strange.
      At my last workplace there were people in a sales type role who were often coming late/leaving early/out in the middle of the day for client visits, etc. So that department had a whiteboard with each person’s name and cell number, as well as a section for notes indicating whether they were in or out, when expected back, etc.
      So that others who were looking for that person would know how and where to contact them.

      A bit analog, but it worked well for that one department. I can’t imagine doing something like that for attendance the way you’re describing though. Is it just to satisfy HR lady’s own need to know where every employee is at all times?!

      1. Policy Wonk*

        We sign out, but it’s a security thing. Last one out has to check to make sure safes are locked, nothing sensitive left on printers, etc. We don’t sign in.

    2. Purt’s Peas*

      The old office manager at my job would do a walkaround at ~10AM and mark off absences. It was wild. She’d been there for some time and upper management is quite weak, so they just…let her do it. Thank goodness she retired.

    3. Sharkie*

      The law firm I worked at did this but only for the lawyers so I knew who was away from their desks/ out

    4. Madam Secretary*

      We have to sign in each day, but we don’t have to sign out. We are in a regional office of a large firm, and it is my responsibility to report to HR who is out each day. I just say, Cersei called out, Jon is off this week, that sort of thing. I don’t report latenesses. I send the sign in sheets up to HR weekly after staffers who had to charge PTO that week have signed off. HR says they track because they are required to know who is in and who is out every day, but we all know they are paying attention to trends, like who is always late and who always calls out on a Friday or a Monday.

    5. Bagpuss*

      We sign in and out but it’s part of our fire safety policy- if there is a fire alarm the reception staff bring the sign in book and can check that everyone is accounted for.
      (Visitors are checked in & out separately)

      1. Crackles*

        That’s what I was thinking… fire safety. You can’t know if everyone made it out of the building if you don’t know who was there that day.

    6. CatChaser*

      One office had an ingenious system that was paper and pen for staff tracking. The building was broken up into small work areas that were locked and only the people on that project were allowed access. They had a table with a clipboard and a sheet of paper with everyone’s name on it and a row of little boxes following the name. When you came into the entrance hall in the morning, you placed a check by your name. If you left the building for lunch or a meeting in another building, or even if you just wanted a clear-your-head walk, you placed another check by your name. When you came back, you checked your name. When you left at the end of the day, you checked your name. The point of the exercise was just to know who was in the building at any given time. If there was a fire alarm, because of the locked room situation, the rooms couldn’t be easily checked. Security would grab the clipboard, and they could tell pretty fast if someone was missing, were they out of the building or still in there somewhere.

  140. Kitty Kai*

    At my new job, accuracy, responsibility, and security are very important in our day to day work. We are trained in and practice procedures to protect our institution and customers. However, we are human, and will occasionally make mistakes. Most of these mistakes are caught early (because of our procedures) and are fixed. Because of the sensitive nature of our work, mistakes need to be taken seriously, especially when they are repeated. However I’m feeling that management is being completely unsupportive and going from 0-60 with EVERY mistake, with no attempt to help improve our accuracy/security procedures. Several of my coworkers have received write-ups for easily fixed, rarely done mistakes. And I’m talking about the occasional typo type of errors. On the one hand I understand the need to hold employees accountable for their mistakes, but am I out of line in thinking that a write-up for forgetting to put away a set of keys once or a typo is a little excessive for an otherwise good employee? Every time someone gets called into my manager’s office we expect to be called out on something. I keep wondering when I’m next. I’m wondering if I have a future at this organization, if no one can make any mistake.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I have worked at places like that and it’s not for me.
      I will say though there is a big difference between keys and a typo. A good number of places would raise a stink about mishandling keys. What I have done with keys is wear them, either on a lanyard or on my wrist. You could probably clip them to a belt loop or something also. I either have the key put away OR it is literally on me. That way I do not set it down.
      And you know, this is not such a bad idea. I started using a clip with my house keys. I can clip them to my handbag or tote bag. If I have jeans on I will clip them to a belt loop. This is great when shopping. I clip the key on to me before walking in the store. I never have to guess in what aisle I set the darn keys down.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I think your interpretation of this situation is accurate. Regarding mistakes, some of the best comments I’ve seen on this site were prompted by this letter that appeared a few months ago (https://www.askamanager.org/2019/03/i-manage-a-horrible-micromanager.html). Some of the best comments about mistakes came from Engineer Girl: “If a procedure isn’t reducing errors, then it’s creating inefficiencies. Mistakes are minor slip-ups that humans make. Errors are repeated, systematic, or fundamental, and need to be corrected” and “She seems to be seeing things as black/white instead of by degree. That’s why she isn’t creating a measured response to the errors. They are either GOOD or EVIL. She is responding to mistakes as major failures.”(this sounds like the thinking of your leaders). I agree with NSNR on the keys issue, and I”ll add that I think that writing people up for typos sound ridiculous. As far as your own work performance goes, well, all you can do is the best you can.

  141. NYC Nonprofit*

    Does anyone have recommendations for good Excel bootcamps / courses they recommend — especially for someone going into the healthcare or public health / policy area?

    My brother just graduated from undergrad and will be looking into his first full-time job search in the fall. He’s coming back from a summer internship at a think tank where he learned some of the basics of Excel (lookup functions, pivot tables) from the analysts there — but figuring if he can find a good training course to really learn Excel more deeply, it could really give him a leg up in his search.

    Thank you in advance!!

    1. ACDC*

      The LinkedIn learning courses on Excel are great. I’m not sure how much they cost, as I’ve always gotten access through my employer, but I would highly recommend that option.

    2. Brogrammer*

      Ben Collins has a newsletter that’s geared towards Google Sheets but most of what he has to say also applies to Excel.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Following up on ACDC’s comment: Even though he’s graduated, your brother might still be eligible for some university-sponsored accesses to online learning platforms, possibly through the alumni office. So it might be worth his time to contact the alumni office to see if/how they can help him out. Also, he should consider checking in with the reference librarians at his local public library. Larger branches sometimes have a small cadre of local-area volunteers who conduct periodic training sessions for the public on MS Suite products at the library, so the librarians there might be able to refer him to a volunteer who could give him additional training for free.

  142. hazy days*

    Advice needed.
    A peer, Judy, made unpleasant / disparaging comments about another colleague to me. I can shut her down, but what concerns me is that I have previously been told by a retired colleague, Frankie, that she had concerns about Judy’s comments, to the point where she avoided Judy in the tea room.
    I think this may be a systemic issue with Judy – how to deal? Is she shaping up to bully?

    1. Colette*

      I think it depends on the type of comments, the frequency, and the context.

      If they’re based on race, gender, sexual orientation, disability – report to management/HR.
      If they’re personal/occasional, I think shutting them down will likely solve the problem for you.
      If they’re frequent, I’d again go to management, because that’s not a good environment to be in.

    2. MaxiesMommy*

      “Wow. Well I have nothing but good things to say about Colette. Her work is great, and she’s a very kind person. You know, I’ve never heard her say a bad word about anyone!” Walk away.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It’s best to go by what you witness yourself.

      So go ahead and shut Judy down. Start there and then watch.

      Everyone deals with this stuff differently. Frankie maybe the type of person who prefers to avoid rather than confront.
      It sounds like Judy may be a harsh person with a long history of being harsh. This is good to be aware of. But if you tell her to stop she might actually stop. Some folks do not tell people to stop because they do not believe their words will be effective. Maybe no one has ever told Judy to stop it before now.

  143. GlassShark*

    I have two questions!
    1. When you’re waiting for an interview to start, what should you be doing? I recently had to wait about 20 mins before my interviewer was ready for me, so I just pulled out my phone and read some AAM posts but I wonder if some people would find that rude? I got the job (yay!) so it apparently worked for me, but I’m curious what others think.
    2. My new job will involve LOTS of staring into a computer. Do those blue-light glasses actually work in terms of preventing headaches?

    1. HopefulLegallyBrunettte*

      Per your second question – assuming you have the ability to install programs on your work computer, it’s worth looking into a free program called f.lux that filters out the blue light from your screen. Personally, I’ve found that f.lux works wonders in preventing headaches and falling asleep easier.

      1. LessNosy*

        I second f.lux. I was having recurring migraines and a coworker showed it to me. It helps so much.

      2. Pennalynn Lott*

        If you can’t install f.lux, Windows 10 has a blue-light filter option (Display Settings –> Night Light Settings –> Click “Turn on now” and pick the intensity you want).

        The Dell monitors I have at the office let you select a “warm” option for screen color. If not, you could just play with the sliding color bars (in the same menu, usually, as Brightness and Contrast) so that your monitors throw out less blue light.

        But, yes, the glasses actually work. I have a pair at home that I use when I WFH.

    2. Nicki Name*

      For #1, fiddling with one’s phone is pretty normal everywhere these days, so I would think it’s okay in general, as long as you immediately put it away when the interviewer comes out to get you.

      Sometimes there will be a trade magazine or company brochures lying around in the waiting area, and you can’t go wrong being found reading one of those.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      1. For every interview, I make a sheet of questions I want to ask and answers I want to give for questions I think they’ll ask. I print that out and put it in my padfolio. I spend the time going over that and re-reading the job description.

      2. Someone already beat me to the Windows 10 Nightlight feature. It’s great; I use it at home on NewLaptop.

  144. Robin Simons*

    hey there, I emailed fairly recently so I don’t want to repost, but how long does it take for a reply or can receipt of an email be confirmed?

  145. Anonny*

    I submitted a question recently and received an auto-reply right away. If you didn’t get one it might not have been received. Oh, and she didn’t post my question but emailed me a response within a couple of days! (Thanks for that, Alison, you are great!)

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Hi! The auto-reply explains that I get more mail than I can answer, unfortunately, so a lot of questions go unanswered. But if you want to see if yours is in my “definitely answer” queue or whether you could post it here, feel free to email me and ask!

  146. Little Beans*

    What kind of questions should you ask in a phone screen to help determine which candidates are worth interviewing?
    Background: I have served on several hiring committees over the years but this is the first time I have been the hiring manager. We have 2 internal candidates who we know, so we have invited them both to interview. Then there was a pool of several candidates who are probably qualified but who have less directly relevant experience, so I decided to do quick phone screens with them before deciding which ones to interview. But I’m not really getting any new information. I stuck with pretty basic questions (why are you interested in this role, tell me about your experience doing primary thing we need done, tell me what strengths you would bring to this position). But all of the candidates I’ve talked to so far basically just confirmed what I already knew about them, based on their cover letter and resume. Nothing I’ve learned so far has helped me decide who might be more qualified than the others. I’m not going to change the questions I’m asking now, since that would be unfair to the people I’ve already talked to, so I guess I’m just asking for future reference: are there better questions I should be asking?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I like to talk salary on a phone screen. Not exact, but I don’t want to waste anyone’s time if we’re not even close to each other on the range.
      Beyond that:
      > Confirming they have the right experience or background
      > Confirming they understand the role they applied for
      > Confirming they seem sane and can communicate clearly/hold a professional conversation
      > Confirming anything else unusual that would disqualify them (WFH, Schedules, etc.). I think a lot of people will apply for a job, but then ask if it can be WFH. Don’t mislead them.
      > Confirming anything that stands out in a good way.
      > Salary expectations

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Assuming your phone screens are 15 minutes or so I’d come up with 2-3 deal breaker questions that are unique to the role. That might help you start to separate the candidate pool.

    3. Sarah G*

      I would focus on asking questions that they cannot answer with the info you already know. “Why are interested in this role and how does it fit into your career goals?” or some version of that should actually give you more nuanced information than what is on their resume. I also think it’s a good opportunity to spend a couple minutes for you to tell *them* a bit about the position, to emphasize or give more nuanced info than was in the job description posted. For example, you could mention something about the day-to-day task breakdown, the work culture at your employer, salary range, or if there’s anything else you can think of that might help give them a better picture of whether it would be a good fit.
      As for questions, you could also situational questions, i.e., “Tell me about a time you had a conflict at work, and how you handled it,” or specific questions such as, “In the pool of job candidates, what could you tell me about yourself that sets you apart from another candidate with a similar background or similar level of experience?”
      Also, keep in mind that the purpose of the phone screen is mostly just a chance for you to interact with the candidate and get a brief example of their verbal communication skills. Do they listen to questions and provide appropriate, clear answers? Are they articulate? Does their speaking style present as polished and professional? Etc.

  147. Keys to the Kingdom*

    Hey folks! I wrote here a while back about working with a nightmare contractor who my boss was siding with, and I wanted to see what you guys thought of something.

    Ever since I left that toxic set-up, I had bout of really bad mental health. There were entire days after I was let go that I just didn’t get out of bed or showered. I decided to move back to my parents to properly reset (and because there weren’t any pay cheques to pay for bills). On the encouragement of friends and family, I sought out a little help to talk things through with a therapist.

    We came to the conclusion that a lot of my issues still stem from the way I was treated, namely by the contractor. We recognised that I had indeed made mistakes, and I was very willing to admit to that, but ultimately what happened was not entirely on me because of the way this person treated me.

    She then suggested (in a true therapy move) that I write an email to the former contractor to air out my grievances. I told her I wasn’t sure because I was afraid of how it might come off, but she’s certain that doing so might help me move on mentally, mainly because when I did air my grievances in the workplace, my former-boss was taking the side of the contractor.

    I’m also hesitant because my industry is heavily influenced by who you know and your relationships with them, and whilst this contractor isn’t necessarily well-known where I’m job searching, I’m still afraid that it might follow me. However, I understand what my therapist’s intentions are, and understand how it can act as a healing exercise, as it forces me to be upfront with not only them, but also myself by writing out and admitting to my mistakes.

    So my question is – what do you guys think? I should note that I have no intentions of working with this contractor ever again, and if they happened to report back to my former-boss about what I said, I had never intended on getting a reference from this position anyways as I wouldn’t trust my former-boss to give me a good one. But I’m also facing the anxiety of actually doing it (another, separate, non-work related issue I’m working on!) and the potential backlash that might come from it.

      3. Wishing You Well*

        Yup. Burning it is legit therapy. Watch it literally go up in smoke and release its hold on you.

    3. it happens*

      Yes to everything above. And know that this therapist does not understand work norms and should not be consulted about anything in your professional life. Doesn’t mean they can’t be helpful for interpersonal issues, but do not ask for or take career advice.

      1. Asta*

        Right. Plus therapists aren’t meant to give advice. Are you sure she meant you to actually send it?

      2. valentine*

        this therapist does not understand work norms
        Yes, and knowing this letter is out there, especially if it goes unanswered, or imagining boss and contractor howling over it together will just make you feel worse and has no fix. Don’t send anything you don’t want published or spread. Your therapist seems like the kind of person who says bullies are hurting and you can just stand up to them or tell them they’re hurting you and possibly believes they’re not going to escalate. Wowza. You might want to shop around. Also, she seems to be okay with the contractor having such a massive impact on your life. I don’t know about that. I would want a second opinion because your healing needs to come from within and she’s telling you to stay attached to the contractor instead of giving you tools to separate.

  148. HopefulLegallyBrunettte*

    I’m a rising second-year law student and have a question about getting an internship for the spring semester (in 2020). I had a wonderful opportunity to work as an intern in-house at a media company this summer and will continue working there this coming fall semester. My hope is that I can do an internship during each of my remaining law school semesters. I’m someone who came into law school after working for a few years in an unrelated industry and prefers working in the legal field more than the academic aspects of law.

    My question is: when should I start looking for an internship for the spring semester? When do small law firms/in-house legal departments/etc. begin recruiting for spring internships?

  149. Upset*

    I have an update to my comment last week about the boss who asked to borrow money from me. I took the advice of the commentators and started distancing myself – fortunately I had a trip planned. I met with him one more time to wrap up a drawing for a client so I could be paid directly.

    Gentle reader, that is when it started to snowball. At the meeting, he knew something was off and was acting agitated and… completely inappropriate. He told the barista at the coffee shop that I was hot stuff, informed me he had sex last night, and told me that I was acting distant because I probably spent a lot of money on vacation. The icing on the cake was that he said our clients have all been asking him if he’s in a sexual relationship with me. He also told me he wouldn’t be able to pay me for several weeks.

    I put in my resignation the next and he has been bombarding me with upset voicemails, text messages, and emails, accusing me of ghosting him. (Not true). I have all of this documented and am seeing a lawyer today who has been guiding me, just in case he continues to escalate.

    1. fposte*

      Yay for getting out. It’s vaguely obliging of him to act like such a kook that you don’t have to second-guess yourself.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you right now but I’m relieved you quit immediately and lawyered up. Godspeed, our friend.

  150. Patatas Bravas*

    What is the normal annual increase in salary? I have just taken up a job and while I was quite happy with the offer I decided to ask if they had any room to reach my desired number following the AAM advice (thanks!). My experience is to always negotiate your offer as you always get something extra: either a salary increase, more holidays or like in this case a signing bonus. YAY!
    Anyways, one of the reasons they gave me not to increase the base salary was that they will be reviewing my salary next April for an annual increase. How much is an annual increase typically? I don’t have much experience in the US as we just moved here and it’s my first job in the country, but I expect this not to be too much?

      2. Lily Rowan*

        I’ve always worked for nonprofits and have never gotten more than 3.5% without a promotion.

        But really I’m just commenting because I love patatas bravas.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on your organization.

      For new people, your first raise could be between 5-10% for us. 2-3% is just a Cost of Living adjustment and doesn’t take performance into it usually. This happens if you’re capped out in your salary band.

      So if you’re starting out, you may get a bigger bump if you impress whomever is in charge. But I would indeed think about it more in the 2-3% range as the average so that your hope’s arent crushed.

      What’s your salary look like next to others with your title and duties in other companies? That may say a lot too. If you’re currently at market rate, then they probably have decent enough annual raises. If you’re way below it, then yeah, I wouldn’t hold my breath for their raise structure.

      1. Patatas Bravas*

        Thanks for your reply. The base salary is market rate and I’d say on the generous side (but again, first job in the US! I just managed to gather a few examples by talking with other recruiters). No idea on how it compares to others in the company, but agree: can’t wait to start and do my best to impress them!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          The one thing you’ll learn about the US is that wages and employment varies drastically form company to company, due to the fact we don’t usually do contracts and operate At-Will in most areas. Which can sound daunting and scary but in the end, if you find the right places to be, with the right people who invest in their work force, then you can make a lot more money in the long run!

    3. Catsaber*

      For a typical COL increase, I usually see between 2-4%. My husband usually gets 4-5% at his job – private sector IT corporation. I have gotten anywhere from 1-5% at my job – state university. However the difference is that he always gets the increase every year, whereas my raise is largely dependent upon how much money the state legislature says we can have + student enrollment numbers. So there were a couple of times where I got zero annual raise for 2-3 years in a row.

  151. Just a Rant*

    Aarrgh. Family makes 3 medical appointments in a row (parent and two children). Entire family no-shows.

  152. Pennalynn Lott*

    I could use some help in not thinking of my boss in a negative way. We got off on the wrong foot when he informed badly — badly, condescendingly — that my work location would actually be 2.5x farther from my house than where I interned. I work in a remote office and he’s at corporate so, for good or ill, I only rarely interact with him. (I work daily with project managers; he’s more like my manager for HR-related things like raises and promotions).

    Now two “odd” — but minor — incidents have happened and I’d like to get some perspective.

    1. We have a weekly team meeting. Last week I was double-booked and had a call with someone who was nearly impossible to get a meeting with at the same time as the team meeting. We do video meetings, so I told my coworkers to tell Boss Man that I was on a project call. At team-meeting-time-plus-two-minutes he messaged me and said, “You are not joining the team meeting?” [Video comes online before audio with our systems, so he must have seen that I wasn’t in the room. But, within mere seconds, my coworkers were telling him that I was on a call. So, my question is: Does his message to me at 2 minutes past seem unwarranted or weird? I mean, I could have been in the bathroom or just running down the hall to the conference room.

    2. My co-workers were at the corporate office for a week and Boss Man bought us some swag. Co-workers sent me a picture and I said, “Wow! How nice of him! Please tell me I said Thank You!” And they replied, “We just did!” BUT…. a week later Boss Man messaged me, out of the blue, to ask if I’d gotten my swag. I replied, enthusiastically, “Yes! THANK YOU!!” and gave a small anecdote about how the swag would actually improve a tiny part of my workday. He responded, “Which color did you end up with?” So I elaborated on how we employees split the swag. And then. . . crickets from him. Other than team meetings, that has literally been my only interaction with him for the past month.

    One of my co-workers disliked him when we first started (we were hired in a small group) but is warming up to him — although she doesn’t trust him. The other [muuuuch younger one] thinks he hung the sun and the moon. I am still feeling burned by the office location bait-and-switch and the way he handled it. Plus, all of our weird, stilted interactions, combined with the two things above, have my reptile brain viewing him as a threat, not a resource.

    Anyone want to throw out some perspectives or reasons why I should be trying to give him the benefit of the doubt?

    1. !*

      Just a suggestion but it might be better to speak directly to your boss about not being able to attend a meeting or thanking him for something. Not sure why you *speak* to him indirectly through your coworkers and it’s probably not a good precedence to set. I don’t think I would rely on my coworkers to convey the right emotion or feeling from my perspective and would not expect them to do so.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        I was following the precedent set by my co-coworkers, both here and at the corporate office. Staff will come into the meeting and say, “So-and-so won’t be coming because they’re on a call,” and it’s clear that it was new information to Boss Man (who was just like, “OK, thanks for letting me know.”)

        My concern, though, was that upon seeing I wasn’t in the room he immediately sent a message instead of (a) waiting another minute or two or (b) waiting for my co-workers to be able to speak up.

        But, yeah, going forward I will send him a message.

      2. Colette*

        Yeah, that’s my thought – passing on messages through your coworkers isn’t working, so start doing it directly.

    2. Neutron Starring*

      I’m not seeing anything troubling or particularly odd about either of the interactions you describe here. I mean, they’re not the most engaged and exciting conversations, but they seem pretty neutral. In the first, does he have access to a shared calendar and could thus have known you were potentially double-booked, so was just checking whether to wait for you? Or, if it was two minutes past, does that mean the meeting should have started on the hour, so you were actually late? To me it reads as him just checking in to see if he should wait for you. In the second case, that sounds like a quite reasonable interaction – he was checking in to make sure you received the stuff, since you hadn’t got it at the time of the previous interaction (when your colleagues passed on your thanks). It almost sounds like he was looking for an opportunity to have a warmer, more positive interaction with you, perhaps in an effort to build a better relationship.

      Is it possible you’ve reached BEC status with this guy, and are ascribing negative motives to neutral or even positive actions on his part? Because I’m just not getting why these things are supposed to be a problem.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        Yes, I’ve definitely reached BEC stage with Boss Man. I did on Day Two when he informed me of my office location change and lied to me about our company not having any remote work location, including WFH, policies. He is the only manager in our global department who requires express written permission to WFH. All of the other managers — dozens of them — are all like, “Just ping me to let me know where you are on any given day.” My work is exactly the same as theirs, only the subject matter is different. [Think: Write specs for blue clay teapots vs stainless steel teapots.]

        In my eyes, the “Did you get [swag]?” question came off as “Why haven’t you praised me enough for this generous [$8] thing I did for you??” And then when I responded with warm anecdotes, he just went radio silent. No follow-up comment, no standard “LOL,” nothing. So it sure didn’t feel like he was trying to build a bond. It felt like fishing for a compliment. Or warning me that he expects to be fawned over, like my 22-year old co-worker does with him. [They actually have an icky, flirty thing going on. He’s mid-40’s, married with kids who are only 2-3 years younger than she is. She…gushes and giggles over Every. Thing. He. Says. He lights up and stands taller whenever he interacts with her. He frowns and scowls when he talks to me or my other, non-gushy co-worker.]

        And the project managers who report to him, the ones I work with/for on a daily basis, have zero respect for him, don’t like him, and don’t trust him. But the non-gushy co-worker seems to be warming up to him (or, at least, she has reduced her criticism of him in front of me), so I started wondering if I’m looking at things wrong.

        1. Neutron Starring*

          Yeah, I think you’ve got a negative image of him fixed in your mind and are reading everything with the worst possible intent. I mean, sure, you could be right. But from the outside, it feels like you are looking for the worst possible interpretation of his actions.

          I dunno, it just seems like you had a couple of less than great interactions and dislike some things about how he chooses to manage his reports, and have decided he is the literal worst. It doesn’t sound like a sustainable way to function at work.

            1. valentine*

              (1) It’s okay for him to expect you to be on time, meaning early, including before him, especially if he is leading the meeting. Contact him directly when you know you’ll miss a meeting, even if it’s minutes before the meeting time.

              (2) It’s weird your coworkers thanked him for you before they told you about the swag, so, it makes sense if he took that as mere politeness or forgot. I thought it weird he asked about color (because why does he care? Unless you have discussed colors), but why did you expect him to keep chatting about it?

              These are super minor things you can stop by contacting him directly and not taking stuff so personally. What about what matters (apart from lateness)? Does he properly assess your work? I don’t give people the benefit of the doubt, but they’re at zero unless they want to go south. The bait-and-switch is the only wrong thing he’s done and I think it’s a much bigger deal than you want to let it be. Make peace with that or renew your search. The place you’re in is no good.

              Why does anyone have to trust him? If he only does HR stuff for you, what kind of damage are you expecting? You’ve set yourself up to wait for the other shoe to fall in every interaction, while he thrives in blissful ignorance.

              They actually have an icky, flirty thing going on.
              Is this the real sticking point? If you only have to see it at the weekly meetings, can you live with that? Would it be more tolerable if you could be at the closer site and/or WFH?

  153. Sollux*

    So, question about internships.

    I am two years into my career, still working on my BS, and was recently offered a paid internship with a potential full-time job afterward (federal govt, so not sketchy). It’s at a place I’d love to work, pays about as much as I made at my last job so I know I can survive off it, and offers benefits. It also only has you work 32 hours a week during the school year, which would be great because working full-time and going to school is hard.

    My conundrum: it’s an $8k pay cut from my current job (which I hate) and I would not be getting the tuition reimbursement I’m getting at my current job, so I would have to take out loans.

    My dislike of my current job is coloring my perception of this internship. Should I take it or pass?

    (Note: not basing my final decision on what y’all say, just want opinions.)

    1. Little Beans*

      How long is the internship, and how much would the full-time job pay afterward? How many more years of school do you have, and how much would you have to take out in loans? What are your prospects for landing a full-time job without the internship? If the internship is relatively short, and the full-time job would be exactly what you want with the salary you’d want, then I’d do it. Especially if you are trying to change career tracks, and your current job is not in the field you hope to eventually be in. In my experience, it is really hard to change fields without relevant experience. However, the big caveat would be, if losing your tuition reimbursement meant a LOT of new loans, then maybe not. But ask your school about other financial aid opportunities and what you would qualify for if you weren’t getting the tuition reimbursement.

      1. Sollux*

        Good questions! The internship would last as long as my time in school, so three semesters. I would have to take out about $4k in loans per semester (Pell grants would cover the rest), so less than $15k total. That doesn’t seem like a lot compared to other people’s student loans, but I have never had to pay off anything with interest so I’m not sure how reasonable it would be. I could definitely land a full-time job without the internship, just not within this organization (and then I would already be within the federal system, so it’s a lot more likely I could get subsequent federal jobs, which are plentiful in my field). The full-time position would pay about $5k more than my current job.

        I guess it’s really the student loans + pay cut I’m worried about. I’ve also only been at my job for a few months so I’m worried about burning bridges here as well.

        1. CatCat*

          What effect is the current job that you hate having on you emotionally and mentally? On your academics?

          1. Sollux*

            I’m in a customer support role and I have to deal with angry people yelling at me on the daily. I also am very bored with the work I have to do when not dealing with customers. It’s causing my anxiety to skyrocket and aggravating my insomnia because I dread going to work. Academically, I don’t know, because I haven’t started the school year yet (two weeks to go!) while being at this job. It does pay for my tuition though.

            1. CatCat*

              In this scenario, I would take the internship offer even though it means a pay cut and that you will need to take out some student loans.

              The current job is having a real detriment to your health. There’s no way this will improve when you’ve got school on top of that job and I would expect it to get worse because you would have school stress on top of work stress. To me, the damage to my health and likely negative impact on my academics would not be worth sticking around. Since the paid internship will give you better hours, is sufficient to get by on, and has a full-time job waiting for you when you’re done with school, I would personally go with that and get out of the job that was damaging wellbeing.

              1. Sollux*

                That’s a very good point. I tend to neglect my mental health so that’s a good reminder to take care of myself, even if it means less money. Thanks!

        2. Gidget*

          That’s a pretty tough decision. If the only difference was the tuition reimbursement I would say go for it, because even though you are taking on debt it wouldn’t be exorbitant and would be partially offset in the long term by being a federal employee. The interest shouldn’t be terrible, especially if you refinance right away and keep up with payments. You might be paying it off for a little while, but hopefully at a rate low enough it wouldn’t be a major blow to your monthly budgets.

          The pay cut, though somewhat expected as it is a federal position and not industry, on top of this is what concerns me, $8,000 less means almost $700 less a month which is a big chunk for most people.

          I think the best thing to do is really make a very thorough budget, including margins for potential overages that might appear and a potential calculation of loan interest overtime, and see if you can realistically support yourself on that much less a month. If yes, that I would totally go for it, especially if you hate your job… but then again I am secretly dreaming of being a fed for that stability, so I might be biased.

          1. Sollux*

            Yeah, that pay cut worries me too. It would be going back to the salary I had at my previous job, which was livable (dual income household), but I’ve gotten used to having nice things like manicures, shiny new tech, etc. :) A budget sounds like a great idea, thanks!

        3. Roja*

          I mean, student loans suck, but that seems to me to be worth a small amount of loans. $12,000 is not a massive amount to pay back, and if it sets you up for 1) better health and more stability during school and 2) better job prospects and pay after school, then it sounds very worth it to me. If you really hate your current job that much (and it’s not hard to see why), then are you going to really be able to stick with it three semesters more, or will you burn out in a few months and then leave anyway?

  154. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

    I’ve got two for the price of one today:

    1. Been job searching for the better part of a year now. I seem to get very close – interviews, praise about my resume and experience, told I interview well, and then, nothing. There’s other candidates with different skillsets. I’m so frustrated I don’t even know what the hell I’m doing wrong, even though at least two recruiters insist that it’s nothing. I’m trying like hell to get out of my current job but it’s starting to feel like it’ll never happen.

    2. Current job’s grandboss is insisting that all of us in Teapot Quality Control make a presentation at our monthly group call (an exercise in tedium at best, a colossal waste of time at worst). All the directive we got was it could be about “literally anything!” but when I pitched a topic to her, I was shot down. Now, I’ve got about a month to put something together (about 10-20 min in length), I’m dreading it and I have absolutely NO idea what to do for this nonsense. (Even worse? In my review Boss told me that the idea grandboss shot down would be perfect for me. ARGH!) A plea to managers: DO NOT DO THIS – do not insist on everyone getting up and doing some idiotic presentation to make sure “voices are heard.” I have, real, grownup revenue-generating grownup work in Teapot QC to do that I do not have time to come up with some entertaining book report to make grandboss feel like she’s Doing A Managing Thing. (And yet, I still have to. I’m starting to panic. I do not want to present, especially for no reason at all (except to entertain a whim). My job has nothing to do with presentations or the like, which is what I love about it.) No idea why I can’t be just left to do my work. Predecessor to grandboss had four of these calls a year and cancelled half of them, and we were off the phone in 20 minutes after he rattled off whatever announcement he couldn’t email (everyone loved him for this). Grandboss honestly believes this is “important time we need to connect as a department!!” (we’re scattered across the country), even though no one seems to have a problem reaching out to colleagues as needed. Going to reach out to her next week to plead for more options, directions, ANYTHING, because I will have to do something. Anyone else have to suffer through similar?

    1. Pennalynn Lott*

      Yes. We are forced, through our performance goals, to go through something similar.

      As in, the performance goal literally says:
      • Establish and deliver presentation
      o Deliver a presentation at least once to either [the entire global team] or within your team.

      So far, presentations are on either a project someone has done (our work is project-oriented) or the highlights of a training/conference they’ve attended. They’re all a massive waste of time.

      1. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

        You have my sympathies (and my admiration for a great username). I’m sure this is some b-school management class nonsense that’s supposed to enrich something or other, but only succeeds in wasting time, aggravating and boring senseless.

    2. Hope*

      Can you do a presentation about the revenue-generating work you’re currently in the middle of?

      And possibly end it with “and that’s why I really need more time to work instead of spending my work time on creating presentations.”

      1. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

        The ending would pretty much guarantee my firing, or else I would. As were ideas I had about why meetings kill productivity.

        My shot-down topic was about a major time suck of my workday, actually.

  155. Kit Kat*

    Hello! I have never commented before but I always love reading what the commenters think, but now I have a question I’d like other professionals to give their insight on :)

    I had a late start to my career after graduating in 2014 because the market was so bad and I couldn’t get a job, but since 2015 I’ve been working on content and copywriting at four different employers. I know that sounds bad, but I was bullied out of one position, then made redundant at another, but I also spent the past two years working in another country for one employer.

    While I’ve enjoyed it, I’m feeling a little complacent. I left my last position because of nuclear-levels-of-toxic management, and I’ve had quite a few interviews with no success, but some of the processes I’m going through now are actually fairly positive! I’ve even been approached by a former grand-boss about doing freelance work where I can work remotely, which is super exciting, but I won’t really be able to start conversations about that until the end of this month at the earliest, and there’s no guarantee.

    I know it’s been spoken about on AAM before, but I’m wondering whether now might be time for a career break. I’m 26, and I’ve only ever done writing and content. A lot of people say I’m young, so I have my whole life ahead of me, but I feel like now is the right time to try something else entirely as I want to feel comfortable saving in a particular location after I turn 30. My dream has been to take a course on how to teach English, and move to Asia to teach the language and experience more cultures, and it’s entirely within my reach.

    My question, basically is this – how would you, as a hiring manager/manager/HR person, see a career break after only four years of employment? Would you feel positive if this person came back after trying something new, or feel that they wouldn’t be able to do the role particularly when they’re leaving at a stage like mine with only four years under their belt? I’m keen to hear your thoughts :)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you took a career break to go abroad and teach English, that’s a really reasonable and normal “break” for people to take. It’s not completely falling off the grid and not working either, which is great. It can be sold as “I wanted to see the world before I got into a routine and settled, now I’m back in the US ready to put down my roots again.” when you do decide to come back.

      I have a few friends who have gone this route and it has worked out well for them!

    2. Luisa*

      I actually think you’re at a great age and stage in your career to take time to try something new and different, and I think that’s exactly how you sell it to future employers.

      Of course, I’m slightly biased – I’m a Returned Peace Corps Volunteer, so I think packing off to another continent for 2+ years is the norm. :)

  156. Anon for this*

    So I won’t go into specifics here as too much detail could give it away if someone where I work reads it, but to put it in general terms, I’m upset at myself for something I’ve been doing at work, similar to that one letter a few weeks ago about how they were so bored, they were pushing off work/projects, except where I am it is monitored (think like a warehouse where you have to clock in all activity so supervisors can see when you’re actually doing work, on break, switched tasks, etc.). I don’t have a valid reason for it other than a lot was going on outside my control in my personal life and in short, that carried into into my job and I began to push things off. I meant to try and stop as I knew it’d very likely be noticed soon, and sure enough it was before I could stop it completely and got a warning. I’m really upset at myself for both letting this happen but also can’t do the second best thing and take a long needed break for a week or so (we don’t accumulate a lot of time off so if I did I’d have to use up all my PTO and some unpaid time off and bills are tight as it is, and the first best thing would be to find a job more aligned to not be doing this type of work but that will take some time). I guess I’m trying to figure out how to try and recharge without being able to take time off? There’s also no way for my boss to assist with removing the very stressful parts of my job so sadly that’s a no go :(

    1. Colette*

      Can you put yourself in a different environment, even if it’s only for a couple of days? Get away for a weekend, take a one-day course in basket weaving, challenge yourself to take 100 pictures of something red over 2 days … get out of your usual routine for a short period and see if that helps?

      On the work front, can you make a list of all of the small tasks you have to do and cross them off as you do them? Can you force yourself to spend 10 minutes on the task you hate the most?

      1. Anon for this*

        I can see if I can get a few days straight off at least (our schedules tend to be everywhere so that might be part of the issue as it’s rare for me to have even have 2 days off back to back). My work does essentially push all tasks (both easy and difficult) at me at random, so I basically have to power through the stressful ones regardless for that.

  157. The Vent-a-lator*

    We recently hired a really friendly HR admin who was… shall we say ditzy? Doesn’t have answers for people, long delays in responses (or none), gets upset when employees go to someone else for responses to questions she’s ignored, overshares her personal information (not sure about other people’s),…

    Now she’s pregnant, and everything’s much worse.

    Frustrating.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      How new is she? If she’s just now telling folks she’s pregnant, I wonder if that’s not attributing to her emotional reactions at least, since hormones are a heckuva drug to be on, you know. [My point really is that hopefully this is something that may change when she’s more settled in and has the baby, being new plus being pumped full of the hormones can be a difficult combination. Trying to stay positive and that this may “fix” itself over time at least and may not be a forever problem. Still very frustrating to deal with but maybe puts some perspective to it.]

  158. Jillian*

    How do you handle interviewers who aren’t good at asking questions? It’s really hard for me to think on my feet, so when an interviewer throws in a really crappy question, it’s SO hard for me to answer. Example: an interviewer recently asked me something along the lines of, “if you were doing x how do you think you would handle the stress, or I guess what do you think your strengths and weaknesses are when it comes to x, or like, what would be your motivation because we deal with a lot of tough people and…” And in my head I’m thinking- what the heck does she want from me? The questions are run-on and they incorporate all of these little questions and just end up making me freeze in the moment. And I can only ask “Can you clarify?” and “What do you mean?” so many times. Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      Some interviewers may be pretty literal, but mostly it’s “tell me about your thinking on this issue in a way that illuminates your work practice.” So it’s more like a viva voce exam than a fill in the blank. If you’ve been taking notes you could note stress, strengths/weaknesses, and motivation, and then talk about all three, preferably in a way that connects them. You can also repeat back thoughtfully your takeaway of the question: “So it sounds like you’re asking about challenging stressful situations that come up sometimes and what I bring to dealing with them–is that right?”

    2. MaxiesMommy*

      Vague, bad questions are GREAT!! That means you can answer one or two parts of the question, then direct the rest of your answer any way you want to—“at my last job we had lots of difficult people, I did X and Y to deal with them. Then lateral to “My last job proves I have the skills for this down cold, not only did I do A, B, and C for three years, I did D!” Those vague, run-on questions = opportunity to sell yourself.

  159. Daphne*

    I’ll preface this by saying that I’m in the UK and work in retail so this may influence any advice.

    I’m currently part time doing about 20 hours a week (I also have a second PT job and looking for a new, full time job in the meantime) but there’s expectation that I’ll take on extra hours/move shifts around when colleagues are on holiday or off sick.

    Fair enough, that’s the nature of retail but I’m wondering how to enforce boundaries of how I’m notified/asked about shift changes. My supervisors used to call me and leave a voicemail and I’d get back to them when I could but increasingly the default mode of communication is by Facebook/messenger. I’ve decided that I don’t want to blur Facebook and work but I fear it’s too late because it would mean deleting my colleagues off Facebook which I feel would be too adversarial.

    1. Bagpuss*

      one option might be to uninstall messenger and let them know that you don’t have it on your phone so fb messages are a really bad way to reach you, as you won’t see them unless you’re logged into a pc or laptop.

      Another thing you can do is to delete them and if anyone comments, say that you decided to use fb primarily for family so you’ve changed a lot of settings

  160. Master Bean Counter*

    What to do when your boss won’t give you the title he promised you?
    Background:
    Teapot Master quit while I was on vacation. I got back from vacation and was offered the Teapot Master position, as what a Teapot Master should do, is what I’m already doing. At least that’s what I was told.
    Fast forward two months where I was asked to provide things like diplomas and verification of a certification.
    I got tired of waiting and had to ask about the promised promotion. Excuses were made, apologies issued. A week later I got presented with the offer. The offer that was 10-15K less than the two predecessors in the position, both male. Boss told me it was because I had never held the position before. I informed him that I was the Teapot Master at my old job, for three years. Got a “hmmm…okay.” I could take the position as offered or not. Boss wouldn’t blame me if I looked for another job.
    The next week I got the raise. But no announcement on my new title. No title change anywhere that can be found anywhere. It’s been long enough that I realize that I’m probably not going to get the title soon. Guess they don’t have to pay me the same as the guys if they never actually give me the title. In the mean time the company has a female manager that is getting paid as much as most of the male management. So that looks good on that level. As rumor has it there is some investigating going on.
    At the end of the day I am paid really well and I actually like everything about work except my boss lying to me over political BS. He’s 5 years from retirement and I’m likely to take his position, and the big pay bump that comes with that. Along with being able to change the tone at the top in the company. What to do with him in the mean time?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      5 years is a loooong time. Did you have anything in writing about the promotion?

      I’d suggest having one more conversation with your boss, then MAYBE talk to HR about whether you’re being titled correctly.

      Also, I don’t know the details, but I’m always leery of assumptions that a position opening will go to an internal candidate.

  161. Nom the Plumage*

    What is your company’s stance on transparency in regards to sharing visibility of departmental procedures? What would you say to an employee who doesn’t want to publish procedures because they don’t want others to know the location of a report (that they would need special administration permission to access anyway)?

    1. Catsaber*

      I’m not sure about my company at large (state university) but my department (IT) has become a lot more transparent in recent years with the CIO change. One of his values is to increase communication, both within and without, so we post a lot of our stuff on Sharepoint, and we also use our ticketing system to track projects and stuff, and anyone who has access to it can view records.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Is this someone who reports to you?

      I would say that company knowledge is not theirs to act as a gatekeeper for (assuming this isn’t confidential personnel information) and the organization needs to be able to function even if someone got hit by a bus tomorrow. Then I would ask them what their plan is if they were out of the office and that file needed to be accessed. I really can’t see why knowing where it is worth the risk of losing access if that person is unavailable.

      My organization does have confidential files in the cloud, but that area is restricted.

  162. Worky Worker*

    I recently got word that I’d be receiving a promotion along with my annual review. So like going from Teapot Specialist to Senior Teapot Specialist. They’re saying this comes with a 5% raise, but that seems low to me. I’ve received a 5% raise in other jobs where I was just a very high performer, so for a title change (with added duties) this feels low. I don’t want to seem greedy, but what is standard?

        1. animaniactoo*

          Following up to say that if you click on the time stamp of the original comment, it will open it up as a link that jumps to that specific comment – include that to make it easier for Alison to isolate which comment it is.

      2. Foreign Octopus*

        Email Alison with a link to this comment. She’s good at deleting/changing this stuff.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This isn’t a stellar increase by any means but it’s not that low for moving someone into the “senior” category. The pay bands for a Specialist and a Senior Specialist tend to be about 5-7% difference, just enough to really make up for the extra duties they’re tacking on.

      I think your previous raises were actually what was low. 5% for being a high performer is pretty low, that’s essentially a COLA plus 2%. So that may have set your expectations up incorrectly.

  163. Jake*

    Several weeks ago, I was contacted by an upper-level employee of a local company, asking me if I’d be interested in working for them, but didn’t mention a specific position. (Note: I was not job searching or applying with this company at the time.) I said I was, and the upper-level employee I was speaking to said I could expect a specific, named lower-level employee to reach out to me. In the weeks since, I haven’t heard from this lower-level employee. Would you say it’s okay to reach out, or does that fall into the “bothering recruiters/companies” or “misunderstanding employee vs. company time” Allison has said you should avoid?

  164. No More Cookies*

    Does anyone suffer with an entry customer service heavy role for the sake of hoping to advance to a better position? I get anxiety and burnt out from annoying calls during my former positions but apparently I’m really good with customer service – so I keep getting hired for these roles. But now I’m trying to stick it out in my next position for maybe being able to move up? Is this realistic at all? I would appreciate any tips as well for customer service roles!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What kind of customer service are you doing?

      I ask this because there’s a huge difference depending on what you’re “selling” them. If you’re doing customer service for say auto-insurance and having to deal with people who have been in an accident or something, something highly emotional and frustrating and confusing like insurance. That’s a different customer base than if you are dealing with selling say clay dinosaurs to dinosaur collectors.

      In my experience with customer service, if you’re selling something non-essential it’s less of a burnout and you’re dealing with the same kinds and same ones verses selling something universal like insurance or medicine or food products.

      I say that as saying there’s a way to maybe transition into a less stressful customer service role. Then of course if there’s room to grow or move within the company, you can always aim for that. I find a lot of people start in the customer service role prior to moving to another one. It’s a ground level position that gets you familiar with your product/services then you can move into marketing, sales, design, production or whatever else there may be in your organization to try out because you know so much about the product itself from the finished and consumer based prospective.

    2. Watry*

      Are we the same person? I posted the same question earlier. Obviously, no tips, but a lot of sympathy.

  165. Stay Interview ... or go?*

    We have formally been told to conduct stay interviews with our direct reports. I will be on either end of these types of interviews and am struggling with how to frame the one with my manager b/c I am actively looking. any thoughts?

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      Why are you actively looking? is there anything that your organization could do or could have done previously in order to change that outlook?

      I’d start with what improvements you think would be worth sharing without revealing that you’re looking to leave.

      I’ve framed a conversation like this as: “The days that are most frustrating and make me fantasize about leaving are:”
      I think that everyone has some days where they just don’t want to come back, but they do because we’re all adults here. But i think that framing would apply to people who aren’t actively job searching.

      1. Stay Interview ... or go?*

        thanks for those reflections! I’m looking because I am not motivated by our strategy to meet our mission. I also am not interested in promotion because the next level up just does more of the same work I already do.

  166. Utoh!*

    Our intern just added me to his contacts in LinkedIn. I’d like to add a recommendation to his profile but am not sure what to write. I think he’s the first intern to actually be an asset to our department and a very willing participant. It’s not a glamorous gig but he’s been involved in some important projects along with the gopher-type assignments. Can anyone provide a script of some sort to follow here? I don’t want to sound like his mother or unprofessional in any way since it may be something that helps him get noticed for future employment.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      I think you’re on the right path here. A paragraph or two that highlights what he accomplished during his internship would be just fine. Thinking of it in terms of a letter or recommendation might be helpful as you’re vouching for his work, confirming dates of employment and if you want to throw in a blurb or two or why he was an asset, I think that would sum it up pretty nicely.

  167. Tableau Wizard*

    I’ve recently become interested in aiming to be on a board of directors for a healthcare organization. I am wondering if anyone knows how someone ends up on one of those boards.

    I’m still fairly early in my career, but I think I’d like to aim for that to happen over the course of my career, but I don’t even know how that happens. Does anyone have experience with being on a hospital board or knowing how someone gets there?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      My view is a little jaded, but you generally need an “in” to get a on a major board. The Board Members want to stuff the board with their friends so no one disagrees with them and they can more or less do whatever they want.
      But it isn’t so hard to get on a smaller board, like a charity or non-profit. You have the members that have been there for 30 years and usually a few spots that rotate every few years as members acquire other commitments or just loose interest.
      So if you want to aim for a hospital board member position, you’ll need to start schmoozing the current board members and the top hospital directors.

      1. Green Kangaroo*

        I don’t think your view is jaded; in my experience it’s very accurate. You also need a pretty glamorous resume, depending on the hospital. My brother, an Army Lt. General, (retired) gets asked to join a major board at least once a week, I swear.

    2. it happens*

      Part of the answer depends on why you want to be on a board.
      Boards have a few different functions, which you can broadly segment into legal and operational. From a legal perspective, boards make sure that the company is operating according to its articles of incorporation and applicable regulation. From an operating perspective, they provide oversight and advice to the executive team. Usually, boards are not involved in day-to-day decisions, rather they look at big strategy, annual budget priorities, CEO/top exec hires. Nonprofit boards are similar, with the added give/get requirement- each board member is expected to give or get a specified level of annual donations.
      How do people get on boards? They are experts in a specific field (tech, law, investing, government contracting, etc.,) have very good connections to a business/geographic area important to the company, have a good position/title from an unrelated industry, in other words, the company gets something from having this person associated with them/providing oversight. Nonprofit boards are very good to get experience with, as well as providing important service to the community. Find a cause you are interested in, research local orgs, find one with a young professionals committee (which can have purely social fundraising responsibilities or real project work.) There are also organizations that do matchmaking for both corporate and nonprofit boards.
      You can take a class in corporate governance for nonprofits or corporations to get a better idea of why they exist and what they do.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I totally agree with everything here.

      I have to add that boards end up picking friends, in part for an additional reason. Board work is incredibly involved and some of it is tedious. People who have to nit-pick at every single point turn the job into a total pain. While you don’t have to be passive, you do have to think. If you critique something you should be right ready to give an idea of what TO DO.

      In cities it’s harder to get on a board. Boards can afford to be choosy with having more people to pick from.
      In rural areas sometimes all you have to do is keep showing up for meetings.

      If you want to be on a big board such as a hospital, I would start with a smaller board as soon as you can. I totally agree with taking a course if you can. And if you have not had accounting, you would benefit from an accounting course also. Not that you would remember every single process, but that you would have an overall understanding of why things are handled the way they are. Finances are a huge component of board management. Not trying to be scary, but you should have a fair idea of when things are going very wrong so you can report it and/or bail out. As a board member you can be held accountable. Many boards purchase board member insurance to protect board members if the board is sued. But not all boards do this.

      Once on the smaller board there’s lots of stuff that other board members take for granted by you can familiarize yourself with: Robert’s rules of order; open meeting laws; general regulations; employment laws; how (and who) talks to the press and on and on.

      And brace yourself. I am on two small boards and those boards could work in to 40 hour work weeks for either one of them. There is that much to know. Current trends are that board members must go for annual trainings of various types. So there is that, there are subcommittees and you could find yourself helping to write policies or other things. There is quite a bit of work outside of meetings.

      And some boards have a requirement that you donate to the organization. I have managed to escape financial donations because of being a rural area but the amount of time one gives can be surprisingly huge. And I still sometimes donate items as necessary and where I can.

  168. The New Wanderer*

    Just venting. Earlier this week I spent two full days (plus untold other meetings over the past bunch of years) trying to convince a team that I am the nominal lead for, that there are three critical areas for Project X. Three. Without all three, Project X will fail. I’m the primary expert on one of those areas that most people aren’t familiar with and all along I’ve heard people (with much less knowledge of the area) say “oh it can’t be that hard” or “it’s probably not as necessary as you think.” But I made a good case for all three areas and I really thought everyone finally understood the criticality of all three after those two days.

    Apparently that is still perceived as my opinion or my pet project and not the actual state of things, because this morning I got a formal request to skip one of those critical areas (“my” area) because *handwave* it’s probably too hard and we probably don’t need it. The politics are tricky so I can’t just ignore it or shut it down but Come On.

    ARGH.

  169. Ginevra Farnshawe*

    Two questions I guess—one, my firm has been paying for a leadership/executive coach for me. She’s great, added a lot more value than expected. It’s become increasingly clear to me that I need to step back from my current job (this part my bosses know) and try to get my own practice started (this part they don’t, they think I’m focused on in house). My practice would be in a v different area of law, so not a competitor. It’s a risk but a dream, and like, if not now then when? When I told my coach her eyes LIT UP and she said it was a great idea and she’d keep working with me pro-bono. The vote of confidence was thrilling, but have any small business owners (or hopeful small business owners) here worked with coaches at all, and if so what was the most useful way to work with them?

    Two, I work on extremely contentious cases against real slimeballs (like, every day I see one of my opposing counsel in the news as the subject of some sanction or arrest or harassment lawsuit). An enormous amount of my job is writing and receiving really snippy emails/letters internally and externally. Ever since I mentally checked out of this job those have been *getting to me*—like my litigator defenses fell away and it just feels like normal abusive yelling not lawyer abusive yelling—provoking anxiety, depression, all the things; I can’t compartmentalize, I carry the weight around all the time (I’m in therapy, on meds, all the supports). There’s no way they can wrap this case up without me but also no way I’m taking it with me, I would literally rather walk into the sea. Everyone is overworked and cranky but I kind of want to go to my bosses and say “the nasty email part of this case is going to give me a legitimate nervous breakdown and if you want me to stay through trial on this case I need someone else to do the mean emails,” but in a way that doesn’t make them think I am a mess unworthy of future referrals. Is this a thing that is possible?

    1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

      For context salutations in emails to opposing counsel have devolved as follows:

      Dear Mr. Smith,

      Dear Steve,

      Steve,

      Steve –

      Steve.

      1. Mazzy*

        I feel for you, but I don’t see an actual question in part two. Do you actually have one, and do you actually have a problem, by which I mean, are snippy emails actually bad? If no one is saying anything, maybe this is just you pushing your boundaries and seeing how far you can go? I think the larger issue is that you need to be able to select what cases you work on, because it sounds like you’re defending someone you don’t want to defend, just for the pay, and it’s eating you up

        1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

          To clarify the question in part 2:

          I’d like, if possible, to maintain a good relationship with my current bosses as potential referral sources. I am also burnt out on this particular aspect of this particular case to the point where it’s unsustainable. I need and plan to ask for support.

          The problem is, contentious correspondence with opposing counsel is the sine qua non of litigation, and unless I frame that request right, assuming that’s possible, there’s a risk I’ll be perceived as someone who can’t handle the heat/who you don’t send a referral to. What I am wondering is: is there a way to explain “I simply cannot be the point person with the opposition on this particular case any longer” without sounding like I’m saying “I’m just not tough enough to deal with litigation nastiness generally”? There may well not be, and this may also be a very lawyer-specific issue.

  170. Jan Levinson*

    Low stakes question:

    I have this new coworker, Jane. She’s bright and has done a great job so far. However, one thing she does bugs me a bit. Any time there’s a call for her, it’s from one of our colleagues (she doesn’t really take calls from customers). Whenever our receptionist answers a call for Jane, he tells her, “you have a call from (coworker x)”. She then proceeds to picks up the phone and says “Good morning/afternoon, this is Jane, may I help you?”

    It’s just…way too formal for our small office, and again, these are her coworkers, not customers. When anyone else in our office gets a call from a coworker, we answer it “hi, (colleague)”.

    For what it’s worth, I’m not Jane’s manager, but I did train her on some aspects of the job. Should I say something?

    1. ACDC*

      Is she coming from a customer facing background? If so, she may just need to break the habit of answering the calls so formally. Or if her previous workplace was overtly formal, this could have been the norm.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Yes, she does come from that sort of background. Not sure how formal the company was, but you could certainly be right.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you need to just let it go and move on. “Too formal” is fine behavior. She’s being kind and courteous, it’s not like she’s referring to you as Ms. Levinson at all times. That would be something to try to break a habit of because it can cause friction with that kind of antiquated formality. However just too formal in how you answer the phone, meh let it go. She may change after she’s comfortable and realizes how others answer the phone.

      You can’t always break these phone habits either. Since it’s like an automated response. Just like how I’ve accidentally even used scripts from other work places and have to catch myself when I say “Thanks for calling Old Jo…I don’t work there anymore, I’m sorry, thanks for calling Current Company.”

    3. CatCat*

      But why is this a problem? I get that it bugs you, but is it actually causing a work problem?

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I just think coming across as overly formal to colleagues can seem inauthentic and even prevent her from developing good working relationships with them.

        1. Gumby*

          I think you should let it go. They are her relationships to manage and, frankly, that doesn’t sound all that formal. More so than necessary, sure, but not egregiously so. Plus how she answers the phone is such a small part of her relationships with coworkers (hopefully).

    4. Mazzy*

      I do this too because it doesn’t actually speed up the conversation by me saying “hello Chris!” when I pick up the phone. You are still going to go through some salutation and small talk, so sometimes it’s easier to just stick to a sort of script

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I agree, it doesn’t speed anything up. It just seems so unnecessarily formal to greet coworkers that way.

  171. TheCrunt*

    So I’m an Asian American and grew up learning about how horrible the workplace culture was for my immigrant parents in their home country (South Korea). Like they had to deal with bosses who would physically assault them, force them to stay late without overtime pay, etc. Which played a part in deciding to move to the US.

    Now I’m job hunting and have to rely on my city’s public transportation due to my driving anxiety. Unfortunately, all of the local jobs are based in my Koreatown area which have a lot of S. Korean companies that have branches in the US. I’ve gotten interview offers with some of these companies as an entry office admin but I am worried of facing the terrible conditions that my parents had to go through. Also doesn’t help that some glassdoor reviews mention that the management is heavily South Korean and there are references to aggressiveness and some abuse that you wouldn’t normally find in US-based companies :(

    Should I go to the interviews and try my best to figure out the workplace culture? Is there a good way to ask without causing them to raise eyebrows? And if I get an offer, should I check how the workplace is like while also still apply to other positions so I can have an escape exit?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ask them to describe the work culture.
      Try to find out how the job became open.
      You are looking for answers that don’t make sense and you are watching for their level of discomfort with the questions.
      Don’t apply to smaller places that always seem to be hiring- there are reasons why they are always hiring.

      I think if you accept an offer it is okay to stop applying for jobs until you are pretty sure you want to leave. It could get kind of confusing and stressful to keep applying while you are starting a new job.
      You can try checking with friends/family to see if anyone is familiar with the culture of a company that you have applied to. Perhaps you have a friend who is happy at their work place and they can let you know of an opening in their company.

      Perhaps you can find a company with a more diverse group of managers/bosses and that might be better?

  172. Pizza Ship*

    I got a message on LinkedIn from a recruiter for a job I’m really interested in (R programming) at a company I would LOVE to work for (partly because the company is located on the end of a bike path that goes past my house so I could bike to work). I was very excited to talk with him about it. However, on the phone call he said he works at Kelly Services (the temp agency?) and that the way the job works is it’s hourly for the first 6 months and you are actually getting paid by Kelly even though you work at the company. This completely turned me off. I’m a professional in my mid 30s with a child and a mortgage, and I am the sole provider. I just can’t imagine working a temp job for 6 months and then hoping to get hired at the end of that time. And of course you don’t get benefits when you are hourly unless you “buy them yourself”. He said that every candidate essentially “bids” on the job and says how much they want per hour and then they go with the best deal for them. Thus he made me give him an hourly number (He actually suggested $60 and I said ok), which I think was too low considering I wouldn’t get benefits, but I didn’t have much time to think it though.

    So my question is, is this normal? I’ve never heard of this kind of arrangement in my field. Would you do it?

    I’m also breastfeeding which means I have to pump ever 2-3 hours at work and I’m very concerned with the potential for discrimination in this situation. If they could easily get rid of me after 6 months without it being “firing”, I would worry that it would just happen because people would be concerned about my work ethic and productivity since I was “taking breaks” so much. It just doesn’t feel very secure. It also feels kind of insulting.

    Also, I thought there were laws about what kind of jobs could be hourly vs salaried?

    1. ACDC*

      I work for a company that frequently tries to get people on a similar arrangement, it’s essentially a temp-to-hire situation. I think it is BS and you should run for the hills. Especially for a 6 month contract term, 3 month temp-to-hire is usually the standard.

      The other thing to consider is if you do get hired by that company after the 6 months, you are still tied to their probationary period for benefits. So let’s say they have a 90-day wait until you are eligible for benefits, that would mean you are 9 months away from getting any benefits.

      1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        I think the level of BS varies by company. I’ve had it go well for me, and I’ve had it go badly. (Never take a contract-to-hire role where they don’t tell you how long the contract is for.)

        That said, the probationary stuff is BS. Your contract period should count for that, but it generally doesn’t. I’ve heard of companies that will bring you on immediately, or the beginning of the next calendar month, but I’ve never worked for one myself.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        So let’s say they have a 90-day wait until you are eligible for benefits, that would mean you are 9 months away from getting any benefits.

        Yes, this is crucial to understand. Some may not have a benefits probationary period and that would mean this isn’t an issue. However I have even had to drill down with our benefits to see if we could count a temp-position as their probationary period and just skip right to giving them benefits. Since our idea of using a temp isn’t the standard “we will get to test drive an employee” it’s actually that we cannot find a person in the traditional route and we need someone. I got shot down by the insurance provider and told “nope, you have a probationary period, it starts the day they’re on your actual payroll, sorry no wiggle room for you to override that”

    2. Temperance*

      I probably wouldn’t switch jobs while breastfeeding, especially to a temp-to-perm situation. You have a new baby and a partner to support.

      The laws that you’re thinking of work in the opposite way. You can’t make a low-level factory job salaried, but you can make any job hourly.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      tl;dr: Not too far off normal in IT contracting, but worth asking more questions.

      I’ve worked at something like this through RHT (they’re part of Robert Half, and specifically focus on tech placements). The job was a contract-to-hire placement, where for the first 6 months I was an hourly RHT employee and if everything went well, I’d convert to a permanent employee of the place I was working at the end of the 6 months. (Things went very well, and I was converted to permanent at 4 months. This doesn’t always happen, and I actually set a reminder to bring this up with my boss 2 months before my 6 months were up. He beat me to it.)

      There are laws about hourly versus salaried, but for an R programming job, then you’re probably going to be considered an exempt employee, and they mostly won’t apply. IT contracting is about the only place I’ve seen hourly exempt employees – basically, you’re paid for every hour you work, but your company (Kelly, in this case) has no obligation to pay you overtime. (This can also sometimes get you out of mandatory overtime. I’ve heard from people working as embedded contractors on projects that went into mandatory overtime “Except you! You go home at 45 hours. We can’t afford to have you work longer than that.”) In short, IT contracting is weird.

      That said, candidates bidding on the job and offering it to the lowest bidder is something I’ve never encountered. It seems to me like a way for Kelly to make a whole lot of extra money on their contract with the client, without any concern for placing the best candidate with their client.

      You should be able to ask if this is a contract-to-hire position (as opposed to a 6-month contract position), and if so, what the conversion process is, and how often their placements get converted to permanent employees of their clients.

      I don’t blame you for being worried about discrimination concerns, but I can’t offer any advice from experience. I can say it would be the decision of the people at the company you’re working at (not Kelly) making that decision.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Well stated @ Daughter of Ava and Grace. This arrangement sounds like a pretty standard recruiting jargon for IT. He’s asking you to bid on what you need comp wise because he has a bill rate that he has from the client. For example the client is willing to pay $100/hr for the position. Out of that $100/hr comes your wages, taxes, cost of benefits, his profit margin, etc. You might hear it referred as the ‘spread’. I’d want a lot more clarification on the contract-to-perm language before moving forward.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The laws aren’t about salaried vs hourly, the laws are exempt from OT or non-exempt from OT. It’s often confused because most frequently “salaried” employees are thought to be exempt from OT [but again, not all of them are!]

      Do not do this arrangement with your current need for breast feeding. Using a temp-to-hire position is used by many places because they want to “test drive” you for that six months and make a decision. If they decide they don’t like you for any reason, including discrimination reasons that they’re keeping buried inside their heads and not outright saying to you, you’re easily cut loose, since temps are easily dumped. Unlike firing someone, which takes your own HR practices and “reasons” for most reputable companies.

      This is standard for recruiting. I get “recruiters” from AccounTemps all the time and it’s an automated “nope, not looking, byeeeeeeeee.”

      This set up is great if you’re in the market to change jobs or need a job due to unemployment. It’s never ever something I’d ever dream of leaving steady and decent employment for.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      YMMV by industry, but usually in my niche of advertising, when someone is offered temp-to-perm it’s because we’re really on the fence about them, but the position really needs to be filled ASAP.

      If an agency likes someone, they’ll make a full-time offer, because they’d LOVE to get that person billing the client 40+ hours a week without having to pay overtime. It’s only when there’s a real fear that the person might not work out that hiring managers think it might be worth having to limit the person to exactly 40 hours/week while they see how good the new hire is.

    6. CatCat*

      Temp-to-hire doesn’t seem weird to me, but the candidate “bidding” seems really weird and a way to try and get you to low-ball yourself.

      Are you employed now at a job with benefits currently? I mean, in that scenario, you don’t actually NEED a new job. They’re the ones who are approaching you so they need to sell it to you with actual things that you want. I’d be asking the recruiter, “What can you offer me that would make a temporary job with no benefits more attractive than having a permanent job with benefits?”

      I mean, the company Kelly is contracting with could get rid of you at any time, not just after 6 months are up. I would need something super amazingly awesome to be offered to me to even consider such a thing.

    7. AndersonDarling*

      The part that strikes me is that Kelly Staffing isn’t offering their own benefits. (And in my area, Kelly Staffing only handles temp placements and maybe a few perm placements. This kind of contracting placement is out of their wheelhouse.)
      I left a stable job and did a 6 month contract to hire position. BUT it was with a contracting company. They negotiated my pay and I purchased my benefits from the contracting company, and I also earned PTO from the contracting company.
      This sounds like a staffing firm that wants to make some cash without any risks. And if the hiring company is just taking the lowest bid, that doesn’t sound like a contract to hire kind of role. That’s just a short-term contract gig. If they wanted an actual perm placement, then they would care about your history, personality, and fit, not just your lowball hourly rate.
      This sounds fishy up one side and down the other.

      1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        Eh, that doesn’t surprise me. When I’ve done contract to hire, the contract companies have offered crap benefits at best, and usually not until you’ve worked for them for a year. I was able to get health insurance through my spouse’s company at those times, and so only had to deal with the lack of PTO. (This generally meant sick or vacation days were approved as Leave Without Pay.) This is not a viable solution for everyone.

  173. Little by Little*

    Does anyone have ideas about how to bring your lunch but still get away at lunchtime? (If this has been answered elsewhere, I’m open to reading through those comments, too.) I’ve always had a large enough workplace that I can find a place to hide even without leaving. However, my SO is going to start bringing his lunch to work to save money, and he’s used to going out to lunch everyday. Sometimes this is to socialize with friends; all of the time it’s to get out of the office & get some down time during the day.

    His workplace is small enough that there are very limited places to hide while eating lunch, and it’s very common for people to ask him about something that will “just take a minute”, even if he’s obviously doing something else. I know he’ll eventually have to decide what works best for him, but I appreciate the variety of solutions I read in the comments on this site. Thanks!

    1. Colette*

      Are there nearby places (parks, a lobby of the building) where he could eat?

      Can he eat at his desk and take the interruptions, but then go for a walk afterwards?

      Can he make a sign that says “On lunch now, send me an email and I will get back to you”?

      Can he go to the gym during lunch? What about a local library?

    2. Hope*

      Can he find a nearby park to go to? Or even a mall cafeteria or something like that? I know some people resort to eating in their cars (though that personally is not something I’d want to do). If the point for him is to get away without spending as much money eating out, then he could try just bringing something quick to eat and leaving for his lunch hour to do non-work stuff.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      Where does he work? Is there a coffee shop or a park near by that he can go eat his lunch at? I run into this problem too. I normally read during my lunch break and if people see me in the building, they have no problem trying to interrupt me for “just a second.” When the weather is nice I leave the building and head over to a park. When the weather isn’t nice, I honestly hide in the basement.

    4. Krickets*

      I used to drive to a nice scenic spot close to work and eat in my car with music playing from my phone or a tv show on Netflix/Bravo/Hulu on. I hope this helps! Roll down the windows a little, though!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A lot of people over the years have went to their cars for their breaks.

      My anxiety used to make just sitting in my car feel funky to me. So I would often drive somewhere to hide out just a few blocks away like a store parking lot.

    6. I'm A Little Teapot*

      The most straightforward solution is probably for your boyfriend to tell people that he’s on lunch (while in break room, etc) and they’ll need to wait until he gets back to his desk. Uncomfortable? Yep. Effective? Generally.

  174. Taura*

    I’m wondering if anyone can tell me if this is normal? I’ve been at my current job for 3 years at entry level (associate). I’d like to move up to the next (analyst), but every time I bring this up with my boss she says “you need to go above and beyond the requirements so I can justify the expense”. The first time, I took that at face value and worked on acquiring more skills and improving in general. But I asked again at our most recent development meeting and got the same answer, despite the fact that this was after she’d sent me cross country to train new people by myself and if that’s not above and beyond for someone at the entry level post I don’t know what is. Anyway a couple more things: the difference between the associate and analyst listings is basically just the years of experience (which I have now) and I guess the manager’s discretion, and I haven’t really been able to get a straight answer about what “above and beyond” would mean for me so I can try to work on it. So I guess my question is, is that normal/common when you’re trying to move up?

    1. ACDC*

      Not trying to be cynical, but it sounds like you are being strung along at a lower rate of pay with more responsibilities and they don’t want to give you the pay bump associated with the title change. This happened to my husband at a previous role.

      1. Taura*

        Thanks. That’s what it’s felt like to me as well, so I am actively looking for another job, but I don’t want to set myself up for more frustration if it turns out that that’s just how things usually work.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        I AM cynical and it does indeed sound like a lie to keep paying you less.
        Personally, I don’t think you can get raises and promotions by staying at the same company. Yet, you don’t want to hop too soon either. 3-4 years is probably about the time to look for your next upward move.

    2. Little Beans*

      At my organization (within state government), the standard is that you have to demonstrate you are performing the job duties of the higher level role for 6 months. I think it’s weird, because you’re basically asked to do the job for half a year but not get paid for it yet. It doesn’t sound like your boss is very interested in helping you advance if she’s not giving you any more detail or guidance. I’d probably say, write down everything you’ve done that you would consider going “above and beyond” and take it in to a meeting with her. Maybe also compare the analyst job description and write out how to meet each of the criteria, including the years of experience?

      1. Taura*

        I’ll do that and see if I can come up with something. The problem with the job description is that aside from the years of experience, the job title itself is applied to so many different duties that it’s very vaguely written, hence the reliance on managers to say what they want/need done.

    3. new kid*

      I think at this point the only recourse is to address it much more bluntly, e.g. at your next one on one with your manager say, “My goal is to be at x level by x date [potentially next review if that lines up]. Can we set up a concrete plan to make that happen?”

      If they push back or continue to be wishy washy at that point, then unfortunately this manager is not interested in promoting you and you’ll need to start looking for that promotion elsewhere. But at least that way you’ll know.

      Good luck!

      1. Taura*

        Thanks, I’ll keep yours and Little Beans’ advice in mind when I’m writing up my notes for our next meeting.

    4. Alex*

      This exact thing happened to me. It was basically that my boss had no stake in getting me a promotion and didn’t want to be bothered. It took me EIGHT YEARS at entry level and my threatening to quit with another offer from another company on the table to finally get me my promotion. In spite of the fact that others at our equivalent “analyst” position got their promotions about 3-4 years in. And in spite of the fact that I did more work than they were doing.

      Stop asking what you can do and show them what you’ve did and why you deserve it. And/or look for another job.

  175. WKRP*

    A few weeks ago I asked whether I should apply for an internal job that was a significant pay cut, but in my field of interest. (After spending 10 years in a career I’m not interested in, 5 years at my current company.) I applied last week. My contact at HR shared my resume with her colleague. I had a slightly awkward conversation with my boss, which was largely positive, despite being awkward. And now, it seems I wait.

    I am not good at waiting.

  176. Urdnot Bakara*

    Any instructional designers in here? I’m looking at getting my master’s degree in this field (it would complement the work I already do and would make sense as a next step in my career path) and would love degree program or other educational recommendations!

    1. Learning Consultant*

      Hello, I’m an ID. What an exciting time! I didn’t get my degree in ID and unfortunately do not keep up with Master’s programs in this field. However, I do enjoy the resources found on Lynda/LinkedIn Learning and the Articulate forums. Hope that helps! Good luck on your endeavors – the field needs more good ID folks. I’d also be happy to answer any other questions you have about the field.

      1. Urdnot Bakara*

        Thank you! Can I ask what industry you work in/what your work is primarily? Is your work mainly in HR/training, eLearning, with an educational institution, etc.? I hope this makes sense.

        1. Learning Consultant*

          Happy to answer! I’m in a higher ed institute but within the hospital side, nestled in HR/Organizational Learning. My team is responsible for all around training needs, but my specialty is eLearning. My colleagues do mostly classroom instruction. We try to look at all types of delivery modes though. Sometimes I write documentation only, or build a micro-site.

    2. new kid*

      I did my master’s in ID while I was working full time, so I just did a program through the university closest to me so that I could take night classes rather than doing a fully online program. It was a fine program but really only chosen via convenience in my case. Would you be comfortable doing fully online? That opens up your options pretty considerably.

      Out of curiosity, are you currently employed in a corporate environment, or in k-12 or higher ed? And are you looking to change that once you have your masters or just use it to move forward in your current path?

      1. Urdnot Bakara*

        Yeah, I definitely can’t afford to go back to school full time, so I’ve been exploring fully online or a mix of online and in-person, where I could attend in-person classes after work.

        I currently work for a nonprofit association (membership base is corporate professionals) in their continuing education department, so I work with IDs. I’m open to anything but obviously my current experience is more corporate.

      2. Urdnot Bakara*

        Can I also ask you, do you work in a corporate environment or for an educational institution? And would you say your degree program gave you the skills for both, or did you have to specialize?

        1. new kid*

          I’ve always worked in a corporate environment and have just recently moved to an educational non-profit. I think the skills are definitely transferable to some extent but I’m sure there would be a learning curve if I tried to move into higher ed, for example (especially culturally, I would think)

          I asked because that’s honestly one of the things I liked best about my program and got the most out of – it actually wasn’t specialized and we have a really good mix across students, so I ended up learning a ton from the k-12 cohort, for example, since their experiences were so different from mine.

          For what it’s worth, I’m working as a content strategist embedded in a software development team which is definitely not the normal ID path, but I think shows how versatile that skill set can be!

          1. Learning Consultant*

            I’m actually interested in moving from ID into something like content strategy. What are some transferable skills you would recommend focusing on in cover letters and resumes? (Sorry to hijack the thread, Urdnot!)

            1. new kid*

              Content strategy is, at it’s core, ‘how do I get my audience exactly the information they need at exactly the point they need it?’ So how people think and learn plays a huge role in how you answer that question imo. Designing a course as an ID is actually just a specific type of content strategy if you look at it through that lens. The corporate world loves it’s silos and boxes, but if you take a step back there’s a ton of overlap from ID to not only content strategy but technical writing, user experience design, marketing strategy, etc, etc.

              Back to content strategy specifically though, I would play up how a big part of ID is thinking through content organization and then use specific examples to tie that into the work of the job you’re applying to. So if you were applying to be the content strategist for a company’s website, you could talk about how you would design a course teaching that company’s product to users and in explaining how you would design the course (what you would be thinking about, what questions you would ask, etc) you can show how that process translates to how you would then, in this role, go about designing and organizing their website content. If that makes any sense?

              1. Learning Consultant*

                It does make sense, a lot! Thank you! I agree about the overlap in these industries. It just seems hard to convince people to hire me!

                1. new kid*

                  Companies always want the guy that’s already been doing that exact job already and it’s such a frustrating mindset to overcome, I totally feel you.

                  One piece of advice for that jump specifically would be to try to get yourself some experience in content management system (CMS) software, even if it’s just to pick a couple you’re seeing pop up the most in the types of positions you’re looking at and then take some introductory Lynda.com courses. That’s another thing you could absolutely learn on the job, but that may be unfairly screening you out at the moment, so being able to put it on your resume might be a plus.

  177. Tom*

    Everybody at my new workplace hates my boss, and I can’t figure out if they have a good reason to or not. He has a reputation for being nitpicky and micromanaging, and for having screaming rage meltdowns at people. I’ve been there a month now, I haven’t seen any sign of micromanaging, and having finally witnessed one of these supposed meltdowns I feel like they’re, if not exactly justified, understandable and wildly overexaggerated. I work in airline ops, where any given day can suddenly devolve into mass chaos and usually this is fine, but a couple times a year you have a day where everything goes wrong on precisely the wrong timeline, nobody gets any breaks, and communication starts breaking down and good judgment goes out the window because everyone’s already past the point of being able to figure out that if they just eat a sandwich they will stop wanting to scream.

    We had one of these days last week, and my boss snapped at a few people, but it definitely wasn’t the yelling other people are calling it, and it was basically over people not being able to count correctly so his frustration wasn’t totally misplaced. Also, everybody was snapping. A couple other coworkers got into it over some minor confusion about who was doing what. I snapped at a passenger for the first time in my life. My boss apologized and this week bought lunches for everyone who was there that night. I feel like this is…fine? I think people get some passes when they’re at the tail end of an absolutely hellish 18-hour day. I’ve worked with him on various other days where everything was a mess but didn’t totally break down like that, and he was perfectly calm then.

    Comparing him to my previous bosses, the last one was an actual micromanager and snapped at people all the time with no apologies, but never stayed late to help out when things were a mess. The one before that never snapped at anyone, but he didn’t care about anything at all and consequently doesn’t have that job anymore. Every other boss I’ve had would’ve dipped at 5pm on that day and it would have been SO much worse if he had. He was there till 4 in the morning and incredibly helpful. He’s the only boss most of my coworkers have had in this industry so I wonder if it’s a familiarity breeding contempt thing. He also has an extremely high-pitched voice so I think this makes him come off more screamy when he’s frustrated, even though his voice is still like that when he’s not frustrated.

    But can EVERYBODY be wrong? I feel like I’m constantly waiting for him to show his true colors when what I’d like to do is enjoy having him as a boss. How much longer should I give it?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Some places are so deeply against change and “new” leadership that this kind of thing does happen. This is often due to their previous loyalty to the other person before them, was the other person fired by chance? Was the previous person extremely popular? Did the other person let people get away with murderous things and this new guy holds people accountable?

      I have seen this happen a couple of times. People just don’t like change, so they decide that they hate the new boss for exaggerated reasons like you’ve mentioned. It’s usually because the new boss is just different and expects people to step up and do their jobs, while they may have been really let to run amuck prior.

    2. LQ*

      The only boss most of the coworkers have had is a big flag for me and makes me wonder if this isn’t something that’s a bit odd.

      I’ll also say that higher pitched voices are often “yellier” than lower pitched ones. If you think of the more negative terms are about higher pitches (scream, yell, screech, shriek etc) are much more negative than lower pitch (bellowed) and often applied to not actually yelling.

    3. OtterB*

      If you know the bad day last week was an example of what people are referring to, I think it’s okay to conclude that you aren’t bothered by the behavior that bothers your colleagues. It doesn’t necessarily mean they are wrong or you are wrong, just that you are bothered by different things. If they try to get you to agree about how horrible he is, it’s okay to just shrug.

    4. WellRed*

      Yeah, I don’t want to be snapped at, ever, ay work. The boss is paid to handle shit. If this was a personal relationship, would dinner or flowers make up for it? Hard no.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This. If my manager has a problem with something I’ve done, it’s up to him to talk to me in a calm, rational manner. Snapping at people in the workplace is not okay, so I can see why the coworkers don’t like him. That being said, OtterB’s point above is also important – Tom just isn’t bothered by the same things his coworkers are bothered by. That’s okay – everybody handles different personality types differently. You don’t have to agree with your coworkers, just understand that they have a different tolerance threshold for bad behavior in the workplace than you.

  178. kible*

    What’s a good way to market yourself for jobs that are lower than what you had in a previous position and also outside of what you previously did? It’s getting to the end of my severance payout and no job prospects in line for what I used to do (something technical), so been applying for admin assistant or reception positions. Which is a major pay cut but i’m to the point where “does it feed me and pay rent?”

    1. new kid*

      I think the common ‘overqualified’ push back is a fear of losing the new hire as soon as they do manage to find something in their field. So I would come up with an good pitch for ‘why do you want this job?’ that shows you’ve really thought about it and have a specific reason why this job fits with your skills and is actually something you truly want to move into as a non-temporary career step, rather than something you’d settle for to pay the bills (even if that’s not true – screw ethics when your food/housing is on the line imo) and then play that up in the cover letter/interview.

      E.g. “I found that heads down technical work actually felt really isolating and realized I’d be happier in a position with more customer service orientation” or whatever is more appropriate to your situation.

  179. Jules Verne*

    I have a direct report who went on FMLA recently. I’d like to text him just to say “hey I hope you’re getting the help you need, everything here is going fine” without sounding like “the team is doing fine without you (aka we don’t need you back)”. Is there another way I should word this so it strikes the right tone — I just want to express my wish that he gets better but also “no pressure”. Does that make sense?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Talk to HR about this because technically speaking, you’re not supposed to contact him AT ALL while he’s on leave. Even just a friendly “we’re thinking about you, bud!” stuff. Yeah, that sounds awful but it’s to protect the employee from being pressured to come back or not to use their protected leave.

      So please, please before you reach out okay it through HR.

      1. Mimi Me*

        Agreed. I had the flu a year ago (so sick time, not FMLA) and I was actually pretty annoyed that my coworkers sent me get well soon texts. I just wanted to be sick and deal with my stuff. I already had tremendous guilt for needing to use my PTO in the first place so the reminder that my co-workers noticed I was missing was upsetting. I know that they were coming from a good place, but I wasn’t in a good place to receive it.

      2. Natalie*

        That might have been a policy somewhere but it’s definitely not the law. De minimis work related contact is even allowed, much less completely non-work-related contact like a friendly note. There have been a number of court cases on the subject.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s the advice given to us by our lawyer to make-do and not push the boundaries of what’s considered “a few calls”. Since you don’t always know when someone else has already worn out the company’s welcome in reaching out for various small things with the employee.

          So if there is contact, it should only come from one source, usually HR.

            2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              And my comments never said it was about the law. So there’s also that. The whole point is just to ask HR before you contact someone on leave and protect your job.

          2. Jules Verne*

            I’d better not risk it I guess. I just wanted him to know we’re thinking of him, but I’ll check with my boss/HR first.

        2. LQ*

          This is good to know. My HR person just told me to contact my person who just went out on FMLA so she’d be able to get the paper work and I was a little surprised because I hear the don’t ever talk to them thing. But my person has been checking in with my every day or two with how she’s doing as well and I want to continue to express sympathy at least.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      Can you send him a kind note to his work email? That way he can check it at his leisure (if he is checking it). Otherwise he can just know you’re thinking about him when he returns and I’m sure he’ll just just as grateful to know you were thinking of him. Getting texts from work when your off can sometimes be a little invasive, just because there’s a pressure to respond, even if you state there isn’t.

  180. Going Anon*

    So I KNOW you’re not supposed to do this…but I really got my hopes up about a job interviewed for last month. They brought me in for 2 in person interviews. The last one they had me submit writing samples, references, and meet the entire team. It’s been two weeks and I still haven’t heard from them. Since it’s a small company, I’m assuming I didn’t get it, because usually their turnaround tends to be quick. I thought the interview itself went well and we had a lot to talk about. They mentioned they really liked my writing samples. I know it’s a competitive position, but the second interview got my hopes up and I was hoping I would be able to quit my current job by now. Now I’m just really disappointed and not motivated to apply for other positions, since none are as appealing as this one was. Ugh

    1. new kid*

      Ugh, I’ve been there and it sucks. Quick anecdote, for whatever it’s worth: when I was last in that situation in March, I was devastated when I found out I didn’t get it and literally crying on the phone to a friend who told me, “Don’t think of it as rejection, but as protection. I know it felt like that was the perfect job for you but the universe knew better and is protecting you from a bad situation.” I’ll admit, it didn’t make me feel much better in the moment, but sure enough, only a few days later I got an initial call back on what I had assumed was a stretch job I would never even hear from. That’s the job I’ve now been in for several months, but if I would have gotten that other ‘perfect’ job (this one is better!!), I wouldn’t have even interviewed for this one.

      Anyway, I know it’s tough to have perspective in the moment because I’ve super been there but I’m holding a good thought for you that the right job is on the way!! I hope you get good news soon!

      1. irene adler*

        Thank you for posting this. I very much appreciate the wisdom of your friend. This is what keeps me going when I get -so close- but nope, another rejection.

  181. Exhausted Trope*

    Question for all: should I accept a poorly paid position in my dream industry? The offer is below market but comes with a few good perks: free gourmet lunches, deep employee discounts, and has decent benefits.
    I just feel that if I accept, I would be devaluing myself.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Is this leading to a higher paid job later? Do you live in a place that forbids potential employers from asking your current salary? If so to both, I’d probably go with it. If it won’t necessarily lead to a better-paying job later, I’d be more hesitant.

      1. Exhausted Trope*

        It certainly could lead to a better position in the future. I don’t live in a place where asking about current salary is forbidden but where I work, they won’t verify salary without written permission from the applicant, so there’s that.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is a very personal decision for you.

      First of all, can you survive on their low pay? That’s crucial. Don’t not be able to eat and pay your rent! But if this just means that you have to reasonably scale back and live a life that’s comfortable to you, it may very well be worth the risks.

      It’s not all about the money aspect when it comes to career choices. Lots of people essentially take a vow of poverty for jobs that they are truly invested in personally. Think non-profit work or social work, you know? Those people often don’t make enough to live comfortably but they believe in the mission so they’re getting that out of it in the end.

      Here it sounds like you’d be getting in on the ground level of an industry you want to be in. This will mean you’ll meet people, network with people and also get to impress the right people who may be able to help you advance to a position that’s not paying you in lunches and discounts! [And decent benefits go a long way in the long run, they can be worth much more than a higher salary].

      You’re not devaluing yourself if you’re getting things in return that are of equal value as cold hard cash. Experience and networking abilities are very lucrative at times.

    3. Exhausted Trope*

      I completely forgot to add that I’m moving next year to different city and my commute time will more than double. Long commutes and me don’t mix. Also, I’ve been job hunting for over a year and really need a break.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Commute aside, will you be moving to a lower cost of living or higher cost of living area or will it be about the same?

        If it’s lower cost of living, the lower pay is even less painful. If it’s higher though, it may hinder your ability to get a lease if they want to confirm your salary is within their acceptable range [this assumes you’ll be leasing from a property management company of course and wanting to live alone of course].

        You’ve been searching for a year because you’re out of work now or because you want out of your current job that drastically? If you’re tired of job hunting and this gives you the ability to stop that for awhile, your mental health is valuable as well and it’s totally acceptable to take a job just for the sake of having a job!

  182. Mashed potato*

    I’m pretty sure it’s a sign of miscommunication but my work constantly have this issue of a) giving us short deadline last minute bc of waiting confirmation from client or supervisors or project leads etc, and 2) trying new things without testing them and then having crisis management week some time after trying new things

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Poor planning and poor management.
      Decide how much longer you are willing to work this way.

  183. KL*

    One of my coworkers told me today that she found out that my boss is looking for a new job, which came as a complete shock to me. Now, I’m not sure if I should tell my our CEO (my boss’s supervisor) or the rest of our senior team, which my boss is on.

    Some more context: my boss is a really poor supervisor. Hardly ever around, lying about projects being taken care of when they haven’t been, signing me up to do things that I’m not qualified for, etc. I’m excited that she is going to leave, but I’m worried that everything she is responsible for and has been saying that she’s been taking care of will now be passed to me, and I’ll be on the hook for her irresponsibility.

    I haven’t said anything about her poor performance to anyone before because I can mostly manage on my own. I try not to cause many issues at work and just take things as they come. But now that I know that she’s leaving, I’m not sure what I should do to protect myself ahead of time, if I should do anything at all.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Do not tell them!

      You don’t even know if this is true. It’s second-hand information. Even if you did know for sure, it’s really not cricket to out someone else’s job search even if they are rubbish. As for if she does actually leave, the best thing to do to protect yourself is practice what you’re going to say to the higher ups about managing your work flow and ensuring that you’re not responsible for her left-behind work. Figure out what you can and can’t do, find a way to say it clearly (and in email form), and then practice negotiating.

    2. NoLongerYoung*

      Don’t tell what could be gossip. (because you do not know… coworker could be wrong – there was a post about folks being told “quietly” they were going to be laid off, and then it didn’t happen).

      But… if you have been covering for the boss, and have not been documenting or speaking up – that’s actually a different item altogether. You need to make up your mind how to handle that, either way. If it is a poor boss, and it is going to come back to bite you sooner or later, why are you filling the gap without documenting? “I’ll be on the hook for her irresponsibility?”

      You need to get ahead of the latter, either way.

      1. Crackles*

        No, you do not know that this is accurate information…. and even if you did, it is not yours to share.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I know for a fact that 2 coworkers are job searching, and a 3rd is trying to have a baby. My lips are sealed. Would you want someone blabbing about you?

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just stay out of it, only because it’s going to be less drama if you do it that way. Not much good could come out of it. It could also hurt you even more if you’re the one who “squeals”, it’ll at very least upset the coworker who shared this information with you since they may be outted as someone who let the cat out of the bag.

      Unless you knew that she was doing something unethical or dangerous to the company, like she was planning to take her client files with her or something terrible like that, this is just something that doesn’t need to be given to the big wigs at this time.

      She’s she’s bad at her job, they probably want her to leave anyways. They may have told her to start looking for all you know, in an attempt to show some mercy on her and not just throw her out in the streets.

      So yeah, just stay out of it.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        She’s she’s bad at her job, they probably want her to leave anyways. They may have told her to start looking for all you know, in an attempt to show some mercy on her and not just throw her out in the streets.

        This is a really good point.

  184. Social media*

    In 2009 Alison wrote an article about not needing social media presence while job searching. Is this still true? I don’t have a linked in profile, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc. (I created accounts for me dog but I have no pics of me anywhere and don’t post anything about myself). Do hiring managers now think it odd when a job searcher has no social media footprint? FWIW, I’m in IT and not PR or marketing.

    https://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/outside-voices-careers/2009/09/21/do-job-seekers-have-to-be-on-social-networks

    1. Going Anon*

      I’m not a hiring manager and don’t know if it is a dealbreaker for those who are, but in general I feel like people like being able to google you and be able to put a face to the name and see a bit more about your background. For this reason, it might be worth making a LinkedIn profile (I don’t think Facebook and Twitter matter as much if the job isn’t communications focused.).

      1. Krickets*

        What concerns me about HR and hiring managers googling candidates is whether it crosses the ethics of hiring when you’re able to see their face, gender, possible ethnicity, etc… :(

        1. Going Anon*

          I worry about this, too. But they are going to figure out during the interview process anyways, so you might as well weed out the racist hiring managers at the get go.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I think it depends on the context of what industry you’re in. If you were for instance working in photography but didn’t have any footprint that showed your work, that would be weird. A few of my friends work in IT, one has a GitHub profile only and seems to do just fine when it comes to picking up new jobs. The others have LinkedIn and GitHub profiles only and also seem to do just fine.

    3. Nicki Name*

      In some ways it may be a plus. Some companies will check out applicants’ social media to see if anything cringey pops up. LinkedIn might be worth it if you’re open to working with recruiters, as there’s a strong IT recruiter presence there.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      I have nothing: no LinkedIn, no Twitter, no Facebook, no Instagram, etc. This hasn’t hindered my career in any way. You’re fine without it unless you’re in a media-related job that expects their employees to have a social media presence.

  185. Can't Sit Still*

    I just finished up the annual harassment training and it was pretty intense this year. The acting was spot on and, honestly, disturbing enough that I turned off sound and video and read the dialogue instead. It was far too real for my comfort level. I’ve actually lived through several of the scenarios used and I did not enjoy the involuntary trip down memory lane.

    The training spent a lot of time on implicit bias. The prior training seemed to focus on not assaulting people, while this training defined hate speech, quid pro quo, etc, using explicit scenarios. I do wonder, though: Does this reach the people who need to hear it?

    1. Graciosa*

      Perhaps some, but not all.

      I’m reminded of a male nurse who received an award for saving a colleague from an assailant in the parking lot – and was later convicted of raping someone else. He clearly recognized the assault by someone else, registered it as “wrong”‘ and stepped in to help. He did not perceive what he was doing as being the same.

      People have blind spots.

      1. Catsaber*

        I agree, I think a lot of the design-focused jobs really need some kind of online portfolio that a person can look at, especially if you’re a freelancer and your customers are regular folks looking for something like a photographer, artist, etc. I would not hire a photographer if they didn’t have some kind of digital presence showing me what I might be buying.

        But for most jobs I don’t think it’s a big deal if you don’t have a presence. It seems like a lot of really high-level jobs – where you might be a thought leader – you’d have a presence, but I’m talking like industry leaders and C-level.

    2. Not All*

      Funny…I *just* had a conversation about this topic in my office! Where we came down was that these types of trainings don’t really change the beliefs of the people who do the crappy behavior. BUT they do put those people on notice that those types of behavior aren’t acceptable anymore, they let people who were vaguely uncomfortable with witnessing the behavior but never called it out know that calling it out is ok, and they hopefully prevent younger/newer employees from thinking that it’s ok & perpetuating the behavior.

      (And incidentally, if it is a training that is available for companies to purchase, I’d love to know the name of it since we’re looking for something better.)

      1. OtterB*

        I agree that there will be very few people saying, “Wait, you mean sexually assaulting my coworker is wrong? Then I’ll stop!” I agree that it’s useful for putting people on notice that the behaviors aren’t acceptable, especially things that are less obvious (implicit bias, for example, is more subtle than many things.) If the training includes specific actions of what to do if you are the victim or if you are a bystander, that’s even better.

      2. Can't Sit Still*

        The training was Creating a Harassment-Free Workplace, provided by LRN Corporation. Since I work at a Fortune 500 company, I have no idea what the cost would be.

        I realize that saying it’s the best training I’ve ever had is a low bar, but it was definitely effective and made me think about some things that I had been letting slide. I also haven’t heard anyone complaining about the training this year. Often, I could tell it was training season by all the people shrieking in agony from the tedium. Not this year.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I was at a public event today and I heard one person saying to another, “Yeah, Yeah, I have been called racist before.”

      I mentioned this to a friend. We both said we would never say this loudly and in a group of strangers, that’s just beyond reason. And we would want to quietly sit down with the accuser and learn what we did wrong so we did not do it again. We both agreed that we read a lot so we

      Differences in people. I think some people will never get it. But other people will try harder to learn/watch/improve. But I tend to believe that no one is perfectly aware at all times.

      Not the way you meant your question to be answered but I do think it reaches the people who suffer the cruelty/abuse. And I think that it gives them wording/phrasing that helps them to tell managers/lawyers/agencies what exactly is going on. Managers have also have a better understanding of the mechanics of how this works (maims) and how damaging it is.

  186. Software Developer*

    I applied for a few Engineering Manager positions 2-3 weeks ago, mostly at large companies, and haven’t received any response.
    Should I assume they are not interested? Or can it take long for manager positions? (Damn, I wish people would just send rejection emails if they are not interested).
    I’m in Europe, if that makes any difference.

    (The reason I ask, is that I’m an individual contributor, hoping to get a Manager position, but if that doesn’t work, then I will start applying for non-manager positions).

    1. OtterB*

      I don’t know about Europe vs. the US, but 2-3 weeks is short, especially in the summer when a lot of people are on vacation.

    2. Ginger Sheep*

      Probably somewhat place-dependant, but in my corner of Europe (currently working between France, the UK and Denmark), you can expect things to take at least twice as long in July and August (or come to a complete halt until September – I’m looking at you, France!). So I wouldn’t worry too much!

  187. Andrea*

    Yesterday I just accepted an offer for a position at a different company. The tentative start date is August 19. However, I just got some test results back from my doctor. I have small gallstones and I have a consultation with surgery set up for August 27. There may not be surgery but I need to speak with the doctor. What suggestions do you have to explain this to the new company? They seem to be very open and I explained that there was a date in October that I need off for a family thing, and they were completely fine. Any ideas?

    1. StressedButOkay*

      Maybe something along the lines of “Right after we set a tentative start date, I received some news that I might need some surgery for August 27, however, it’s not 100% confirmed yet. If I do need to have the surgery, how would you like to proceed with my start date? Should we still aim for the 19th and then I’ll take some time for the surgery and recovery or should we move the start date back?”

    2. Pennalynn Lott*

      I had my gallbladder removed via laparoscopy on a Friday and was back at work, in zero pain, the following Monday. So there’s a chance you might not miss much work, even if you end up having the surgery.

      Just let them know you have a consultation on the 27th and you’ll know after that if surgery is warranted. As long as it’s laparoscopic surgery, the recovery time is minimal. I’m sure they’d rather have you miss a few days than try to power through the pain (and danger) of a gallbladder “attack”. And since you don’t know if you’ll need surgery or not, there’s no sense in putting off your start date, IMO.

      1. Andrea*

        Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, I have another underlying medical condition that causes a delay in healing and there could be a bunch of complications with surgery.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s pretty abnormal to be back so quickly like the other comment states, just so you know! Even though it’s not an invasive surgery, it takes at least a week for most people to recover enough to go to work. I healed up fast but I couldn’t even sit up because it affects your core muscles since it’s in your abdomen.

      However, health issues are very normal to deal with, even as a new employee. I would just be up front and let them know you’re dealing with getting a health issue taken care of and you have an appointment. Then if you need surgery, you tell them that you need surgery and that you’ll need time off to recover. Since you’re new, you may want to offer up a doctors note for the proof to pad it with some gesture to say “no really man, I’m sick and not a flake!”

  188. Alex*

    I just want to share my work pet peeve to get it off my chest.

    It irritates me to no end to be thanked for my enthusiasm to do something I have no enthusiasm to do. For example, this week we were required to go to this (ridiculous, complete waste of time) meeting. And the chair of the meeting starts off saying “First of all, I want to thank you for coming to the meeting and being eager to participate in this!”

    I had no choice! I was not at all eager to participate! It was completely against my will! And the chair of the meeting is talking about it like it is something I volunteered to do.

    What are your pet peeves?

    1. cranberry*

      This is super minor, but I hate when I send an e-mail basically just wrapping up the chain by saying “Thanks for X” and I get a response back like “You’re welcome”. I find it unnecessary.

      1. Catsaber*

        I think unnecessary emails are my biggest peeve. Especially when people in my org are complaining about too many emails in general….so I do things like utilize chat, Sharepoint, etc – all sorts of great tools that reduce our need for email. And then I still end up with insane email convos and people asking me to resend documents (that are on Sharepoint! THEY’RE ON SHAREPOINT!!!)

    2. Havarti*

      That is very irritating.

      I dislike being thanked for my “cooperation” when being asked to do something. I know it’s a synonym for “help” but my brain associates it with children and schooling. I’m not cooperating with you out of the goodness of my heart! I’m doing the job I’m paid to do!

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        Whenever I send out a “Thank you for your cooperation!” I mean, “Thank you for doing this instead of refusing to do it and spending the entire week whining and complaining to me about it and calling me mean when this is something that’s a basic part of going to work that I shouldn’t have to remind you to do.”

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, it makes me giggle. “Uh, YOU have my paycheck. And I would like my paycheck and I would like more similar paychecks.”
        It’s all in my head but the word cooperation is forever linked to an UNwillingness to do something.

      3. MWH*

        That’s an interesting one. I try to be pretty understated at work, so I save “Thank you for your cooperation” for cases when someone has been so recalcitrant that I’m beginning to circle the wagons and gather documentation. I’ll normally save it for when my boss gives me the green light to begin to be really pushy, including escalating things. My boss and close coworkers know that when I send a “thanks for your cooperation” email, I am screamingly angry that someone isn’t cooperating.

  189. Krickets*

    Moving next week to a new city 2 hours from current city because SO is making a switch and pursuing grad school. Been looking for jobs in my field in new city for about a few months and got 2 rejections. Hard to find good jobs within my field (marketing–inclusive of all, incl. digital) that has a good pay. Feeling a bit dejected but motivated to keep applying. Updated cover letter using AAM’s techniques but I still feel like something is missing/off. May resume heavier focus on job search after the move, but it’s the main thing I’m stressing about because I really need a job. Been freelancing but projects have slowed down and I’m looking to move back to salaried/consistent flow of income positions and a team environment. Literally couldn’t sleep last night and kept trying to put it out of my mind–it just increased my heart rate! For context, I have a bach. + masters.

    Wondering if anyone had any tips or suggestions on:
    a) Cover Letter inventory–how many versions or variations do you have? How often do you re-craft it? Do you write a bulk from scratch for every variant position?
    b) Adjusting mindset to being open to other fields and other jobs that may not be related but have some transferable skills. How do you do this? And how do you have a good judgment on what to apply for when casting a wider net?
    c) Meeting other professionals as a newbie. Networking is daunting for me but I’m not opposed to it (even as an introvert). Is there any other strategy to employ?
    d) Making new friends in general in a new city. I hope to meet new people and build friendships! I’ve sadly lost touch with some from the past but also want to build deeper friendships in this phase of life. If you’ve been through something similar, how did you handle this and make new and meaningful friends? And I’m also v down to just make a food friend/music friend/book friend etc where it’s interest based and just have a buddy to hang out with (if that makes sense!).

    Thank you all so much!

    1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I’ve been there, too. It’s tough. I don’t have any real good advice for job hunt, but for settling in/making friends, I’d recommend picturing how long you think you’ll need to settle in/make friends, and triple it. One of the things about moving as an adult is that nobody cares about The New Kid. Some people might be friendly to newcomers, some people might be neutral and not care, and some might be downright hostile.

      If you’re lucky and it’s a friendly city and you have access to a network that’s welcoming to newcomers, great! But if you end up in an unfriendly city and you’re just lumped in with everyone else, it is going to take a lot longer and a few more newcomers before people stop singling you out as The Intruder. Both are normal, and it has nothing to do with you.

      Good luck!

      1. Krickets*

        Thank you so much for this advice, @That Girl From Quinn’s House. I gotta adjust if it’s unfriendly, so I hope that won’t be the case with the city. (I don’t really know and won’t know until I move there.)

  190. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

    Is a company changing its EIN anything to be concerned about?
    Our small company did, and it’s unclear why.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Not really an issue to worry about. Did they perhaps change from an LLC to a Corporation? That would mean a new tax ID, also if they change ownership.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can also look at the IRS website under “Do You need a new EIN” for more reasons, none of which are suspect!

    3. De Minimis*

      They could have changed their business structure [like if they decided to incorporate or if they became a partnership after being a corporation], or possibly changed owners. Not necessarily a cause for concern.

  191. Vicky Austin*

    I want to ask about something I’ve been wondering about for a long time. Why is the name “Fergus” so frequently used as a pseudonym? It’s a very uncommon name so I was wondering if there was any story behind it.

    1. Reba*

      I think Alison used it a few times, and precisely because it’s such an unusual name to most readers here, it’s had staying power. AFAIK there is no story with it, unlike Wakeen, which we don’t see much anymore! No one has really adopted Clementina Warbleworth, either. ;)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I don’t think it has an actual story or tie in but tbh it always reminds me of “Ferguson” from Clarissa Explains it All. The obnoxious little brother character.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Same here, haha.

        I laugh about it because there’s a character in my novel named Fergie. But he’s very cool and not a Fergus or a Ferguson.

      2. LGC*

        That’s…actually not that far off, since often it’s used as a dig at a misbehaving (and usually male) coworker. At least, that’s how I’ve seen it used (and sometimes used it myself).

        (Some people might say that “misbehaving male” is redundant. I’m reserving judgment on that, although the letters this week have not highlighted the most well-behaved men.)

  192. Geheim*

    The post-performance evaluation letters telling folks whether they got a raise are 6 weeks overdue.

    Mostly.

    A couple of people got theirs and are angry. One was told the company will no longer give COLAs.

    There is a town hall on the 20th. Would tea or popcorn be most appropriate?

    2. Geheim*

      Weird. I expected no raise, but got 4%. (Just got brought on full-time a few months ago and got a small raise then, too.)

  193. Anonymous for this*

    My boss’s boss was fired this morning. I’m quite sad – I liked worked for them and respected them – and it was also a shock. It was also obvious that it was a firing. No talk of pursuing other opportunities, no wishing them well, only a warning to not talk about it, and report to their manager – the director – if we hear anyone else talking about it.

    I feel bad for them. I worry what will happen in my department. What an icky thing – even if it was totally appropriate or necessary, it’s still just a bummer on the day.

    1. WellRed*

      I find the whole ” report it immediately” if you hear quite normal conversation about this aspect to be rather gross and suspect.

      1. RVA Cat*

        Seconded. All this secrecy makes my mind go straight to embezzlement or Duck Club – or that this is the start of a management coup.

    2. Anonymous for this*

      I thought this might be able to be my forever company. The manager that was fired had 31 years with the company – she’d worked her way up from a contractor position. Now the least political manager is fired, and I have shifted stance from “Focus on success here” to “Here is fine for now, but I need to focus on resume building and being ready to bug out.” I am saddened. this weekend has kinda stunk.

      I’m thinking there could have been a better way to do this. But maybe not.

      I am still totally bummed out.

  194. Anon in London*

    So, a few months ago I won a disability discrimination grievance at work. Stuff is happening as a result of that – adjustments being put in place and stuff. My boss was off sick immediately after for a long period, which I now know was a mix of stress and other stuff that definitely had nothing to do with work. I imagine it was pretty awful to be the subject of a grievance, but it was definitely worse not to have adjustments I needed to work effectively.

    It’s all tangled up with my probation, which is due to restart in September, after the adjustments are in place. (Yeah, it took from May to August to get it all moving.) I started in December so my new, restarted probation will be ending just over a year after I started this job.

    After being really incapacitated from looking, I am looking again. I feel like I’m doomed in this workplace – I don’t think you can really recover from almost failing probation even if you did manage to get up to speed in the weird interim. While all this was progressing I’ve settled into the role, even despite the rough start, and… it’s a terrible fit. This team doesn’t need me, my skills or strengths. And, my confidence is shot, but I also know part of that is that I am just wasted there.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for how to survive this, keep some energy and brain space for applying for jobs, and also regain perspective on what it makes sense to go for? This job was a step down and back for me, although it pays almost as well as my old job – because I work in a sector notorious for low pay, mainly. But I need to overcome this sense that I derailed my career. I changed tack to try something new, learn some new skills, and because of personal and family circumstances. I left a toxic work environment behind and then got into this bonkers situation, and so I feel like I’m really far from the shore in terms of realistically assessing my skills/abilities or conveying my professional identity and potential to employers.

    Any words of wisdom or similar experiences appreciated. Right now I am trying to keep my head down and avoid attracting attention and not fuck up, until I can leave to another job. Hope I can do this.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It takes time and give yourself the permission to go through all these emotions that I’m sure are nagging at you. Including being angry if you feel it. This is an awful situation to have been put into and it’s of no fault of your own given you requested accommodations and were denied.

      It’s a process when we go through these kind of traumatic experiences. This is very much a traumatic experience, you were treated poorly and you did the right thing, you stood up for yourself and you won. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hurt and leave lasting impressions. It also doesn’t stop us from beating ourselves up over things that are actually out of our control!

      You can do it. It’s going to take time but you are not stuck and this is not your destiny. You will bounce back but take time to lick your wounds and sort your emotional baggage.

      1. Anon in London*

        That’s really kind. I know at some point I will be ready to re-look at my own role within all of this, but right now I am trying so hard to break a cycle of “everything bad that happens is totally your fault” so it was helpful to hear.

        As part of the grievance I got a lot of information about my recruitment that just reinforced that they took a risk on me, and then failed to provide any training and support as part of induction, and then failed to make use of the disability information which compounded everything a lot. So … it really is not on me. I keep reminding myself that you are allowed to go for jobs that you think will stretch you, either in seniority or functional skills, and you are allowed to fuck up and fail, but that failure shouldn’t be due to discrimination and ideally also not to bad management. But, hey ho. It’s hard not to take that on as a personal failing or flaw.

        I’m looking for a therapist so hopefully that will also help me sort through all the bullshit and get back on top.

        1. ToS*

          I hope the therapist part works out. Sometimes it can help to vent within your tribe, whether it’s your professional association, people who work with your particular diagnosis or set of limitations, or even a faith community. It will take some time to re-ground yourself as having to work through a grievance is an extra load of work on top of what you assigned to do.

          Sometimes reading about what others have gone through helps, but you might need to be more aware of things that might set you off. Dr. Mona Hatta-Attisha wrote “What The Eyes Don’t See” about raising awareness about lead in drinking water that was showing up in the children she was treating as a pediatrician. She writes of how psychologically hard it is to bring a complaint to resolution, even if there are many people supporting you.

          I am another person who is encouraged by your speaking up and getting people to actually follow-through on what is expected from them as employers. Taking action is hard. I’d say more, but I know US matters much more than London. On this side of the pond, I’d recommend AskJAN as a website and a place to call. Ideally England has something similar. Best wishes.

  195. AnonymousQuandry*

    This is probably far too low to truly be read, but I’m going to try.

    I have a legal situation in which I am the complainant/victim. The situation has escalated to where there is the likelihood to be weekly/biweekly/frequent hearings for a bit. I don’t technically need to be there, but as this could impact my safety, I would like to be there if I could. It would also potentially look good to the judge/legal powers that I’m there.

    At work, we are in major crunch time for a project. Major. I attended a hearing this past week and was 2.5 hours late to work. Not terrible, but enough. Should I just brush it off and hope for the best, or keep trying to attend the hearings or go to every other one…?

    1. OtterB*

      If it affects your safety, it’s fully understandable you want to be there. Can you timeshift, e.g. work late, put in some Saturday hours, or cut your lunch short to make up for time you have to miss to attend hearings? Can you take the question to your manager by saying something like you need to attend these hearings, but you don’t want to slow down the project, and how would they prefer you handle it? (Don’t ask this if your manager is unreasonable, or if you think “Don’t go to the hearings” is a likely response.)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s completely reasonable to have times in our lives that mean we need to dip into our standard office hours for personal things, this is one of those for you!

      I would make a point to let everyone know that it’s a temporary thing [that it’s a legal proceedings that isn’t going to last for a million years, even though it probably feels like that to you in the thick of it right now]. You need to protect yourself and do what you can to stay in a sympathetic view point of the judge.

      So keep making the hearings whenever possible, let your colleagues know that you understand that it’s major crunch time and that this is clearly an inconvenient time to have this going on but you know, it is what it is and you can juggle everything for the time being.

    3. WellRed*

      Does work know what’s going on? If not, it might be best to give a heads up. A decent workplace will want to “help” though I understand wanting to keep the drama down, if you will.

  196. Anastasia, not Anne*

    Hello,

    I have a very stupid one but I’m not sure how to address it. I work for an attorney who is very kind but has been addressing me by the wrong name for almost two months now! At first it was just directed to me and it was a name that was similar to mine, which is more unusual (think, my name is “Anastasia” and he calls me “Anne”)

    I didn’t correct it at the time because it was so quick and felt like just an one-off but then it kept happening. I tried peppering my real name into conversation occasionally, and at the end of every week, he signs a time sheet with my name as Anastasia. I kind of just let it go, continued signing my name as Anastasia whenever I had to send an email to a client and didn’t think much of it…Until he started introducing me to his clients as “Anne”!

    I don’t want to embarrass him, or come across as cold or anything. I’m just too shy to say something in the moment usually, and it doesn’t bother me too much when it’s just the two of us. I just feel bad to be introduced to a client as “Anne” and then sign an email to them as “Anastasia”! Should I just start signing my name as Anne? This is probably very silly but help!

    1. CatCat*

      You describe your boss as a kind person so I am sure he would want to address you (and have others address you) in a way you prefer. You can easily fix this and you don’t have to do it right in the moment if that’s hard for you. If you’re concerned about embarrassing him (and I get that, if he is conscientious person, he would probably be a little mortified to be calling you something do don’t like), you can use a sort of face saving white lie that you had considered going by the name.

      In a friendly tone, something like, “Hey Boss, a couple months ago, you started calling me Anne. I had not gone by a shortened version of my name before that and thought I would see how I liked it. Having tried it, I’ve decided that I prefer the full Anastasia and want to be called Anastasia going forward rather than Anne. Thanks!”

    2. Redhead in NY*

      I would say… “I’m so embarrassed I didn’t say this before and that it has taken me so long to say this but my name is actually Anastasia!”

      And also – you should definitely always correct people. It’s just a name, no one is going to be offended by a correction like that :)

      1. Blue Eagle*

        No, no need to say you are embarrassed.

        Just say “I noticed that you introduced me to a client as Ann but I prefer to be called Anastasia” and leave it at that.

    3. Jaydee*

      Just address it with him directly! And the sooner the better. You don’t have to make a big deal out of it. Just say something like, “Fergus, I’ve noticed that you usually call me Anne, and I assume that’s because it seems like a shortened version of Anastasia. It’s actually not, and I prefer to be called Anastasia. I don’t want clients and other attorneys who contact me to get confused. Could you start calling me Anastasia?”

      You could leave out the “It’s actually not” or add in an apology for waiting so long to bring the issue to his attention. But basically go into the conversation assuming that this was an honest mistake on his part and one that he wouldn’t want to keep making once he’s aware it’s a mistake.

    4. OtterB*

      “This is awkward, but…” is another possible lead-in to asking him to use your correct name going forward.

    5. Mischief Managed*

      Use your own name! Changing your name in your signature is just going to cause further confusion down the line. Chances are they will think they misheard your name when your boss introduced you and will roll with it.

      I personally think you need to tell him what your actual name is. This is YOUR name. If he is truly kind, he’s going to appreciate that you told him. How much more embarrassing would it be for him to realize a year from now that he’s been calling you the wrong name?

      Plus you telling him now will hopefully calm your nerves about correcting him if he introduces you as Anne. If it happens again, you can cheerfully tell the client that your name is actually Anastasia.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Oh man. If he’s introducing you wrong you HAVE to talk to him. I’d just keep it light like the folks suggested, but do correct him. Way worse than having to correct a client.

    6. CM*

      I’ve never found a graceful way to tell someone they’re calling me by the wrong name. It’s always super awkward. But I do it. I don’t change my name so we won’t have to feel weird for five minutes.

      Now it’s EXTRA weird, because you let it go on for so long, and I can understand the urge to bail on the situation and live under an assumed identity rather than feel embarrassed.

      I think you have to tell him, though. If you have any skills at all with comedy, this is a great time to use them. With the right delivery, just walking into his office and saying, “So, this is awkward, but name’s Anastasia, and I didn’t tell you that before, because I was embarrassed, and now it’s just snowballed into an uncontrollable situation where there world is slowly filling with people who know me as Anne, and the madness needs to stop,” could work really well.

      Good luck.

  197. Amethyst*

    Update on the cubicle desk pettiness!

    Thanks to you all for your advice last week on how to deal with Cubicle Mate (CM) complaining that I was using her desk (because of the way papers fell as I worked). I teased Supervisor about it Monday morning & half-jokingly suggested the wall partition to shut down CM’s griping, which was immediately & flatly shut down. Fine with me cuz I prefer not feeling boxed in, lol.

    Tuesday is where it got interesting. I come in a little more than an hour earlier than CM, so I’m pretty heavily into my work by the time she shows up. I had set a pile of (done) papers at the edge of my desk & had another working pile set at an angle right on top of the done pile. One of the first thing CM did after clocking in was put a large stack of work right up against HER desk, I imagine so I wouldn’t use it? Don’t know the logic there.

    Y’all, I about up & died laughing on the inside. I texted a bunch of friends with a picture & OMG, it was like childish pettiness went up to a new level. A few hours later, I was munching on some kettle chips & texted the same friends saying something like, “Just realized I’m eating kettle chips. How long d’ya suppose it’ll be before she complains to Boss I’m chewing too loudly? LOL!!!” Friends texted back with ideas like, “Rub the chip dust off your hands onto CM’s side!” “Squeak loudly!” “Bite down harder to maximize crunch!”

    It. Was. GLORIOUS. The entire day was spent like this.

    But as always, all good things must come to an end. Ever since she’d complained to Boss about the usage of her desk, I had spent time Thursday to Wednesday futzing with my desk, trying to make it so I could work comfortably. All in all, I probably lost a full day’s work due to this. Wednesday I came in & moved my motherboard up top behind my monitors, worked like this for a while, then decided I couldn’t stand working this way any longer (it was the worst desk setup so far, y’all, it was horrible). I approached Supervisor & said I’d given it a week, trying to find my new sweet spot & I’ve failed miserably, so I’m returning it to the original layout. CM will just have to deal, but I’d keep an eye on all my papers to ensure none would dare touch their own corner onto her desk. Or the air above her desk. Or something. She told me she was sick & tired of dealing with this crap & to do as I need to do as long as I can get back to work after.

    My desk is back to normal (with the exception of the motherboard, which is occupying dead space on my desk) as of Wednesday, which makes me delighted. As far as the complaints: So far so good. I haven’t heard anything (yet).

  198. Stuck In A Crazy Job*

    My new job is structurally a nightmare ( lots of unpredictability). I want to change to another industry with jobs with predictable hours and a lack of on call, but all my job experience is in this industry. Help!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Try. It’s all you can do. Apply for positions where your skills are transferable and see what they have to say. Don’t get stuck in the “well I don’t have experience, so now what?” cycle. The grind stinks but you never know until you try. You just really need to focus on those transferable skills, we’ve hired people from previously different industries because our industry has dried up in a lot of places and beggers can’t be choosers!

    2. Mama Bear*

      Try applying for reach jobs where you know you can pick up the skill fairly quickly. Cite times when you had to learn a new thing quickly and did it well. Sometimes all you need is one person to give you a chance.

  199. Angwyshaunce*

    Is it bad form, during a review while receiving a generous raise, to also request an additional week of vacation?

    I currently have three weeks – I take two one-week vacations every six months and use the third to supplement sick days.

    Due to increased work load and the cognitive nature of my work, I often get burn out well before the next vacation. I plan on pitching the request as a way to stay sharp during the year.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      I think it’s fine, just be prepared that they may tell you, “No” or offer to give you additional vacation but decide to not give you a raise.

    2. Mama Bear*

      We are encouraged to negotiate. My first review I had not been here a full year yet, but I’m contemplating requesting a regular telework day next year. I think if you pitch it well, there’s no harm in asking.

      1. Angwyshaunce*

        Thank you both! I’d be fine if the answer was no – as a “guesser”, I thought I’d try being an “asker” for once to see if it works in my favor.

        I don’t negotiate with my boss, as my raises tend to be very generous. I suppose I just feel bad about (potentially) getting a large raise and asking for more stuff.

    1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      I literally was giving tours or conducting move ins from 8:30 am to 3:30 pm and have been desperately trying to catch up on a day’s worth of messages and admin work since, but… it’s going well! Everyone is nice, there are still hilarious but not-Hellmouth-awful property management shenanigans that I can type up as soon as I get a little time (it has been ridiculously slammed today) AND I have an interview for one of the state jobs I was waiting to hear back from! Huzzah!

      1. Earthwalker*

        Hooray for you, ex-Hellmouth! I still think you should write a book about the Hellmouth, though, that becomes a best seller and retire young. You have so many fans already.

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Aw, that’s so nice! I’ve actually been thinking about writing some stuff just for fun–a FB memory made me realize that this week is the anniversary of the kid revenge pooping in the Hellmouth pool, and I swear I think I could write a lengthy essay about it, heh.

          1. RVA Cat*

            Please do!
            I love that a site search for “revenge poop” pulls up the original Hellmouth letter.

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Aw, thanks! The current new job has been pretty slammed on Fridays, so when I post anything it’s usually on Saturdays now.

  201. Pam Beesly*

    I know there’s probably nothing I can do about this, but my new coworker is ALWAYS in the bathroom.

    Before she started, it was only me and one other woman in our office. I’ve worked here for 4 years and have only ran into her in the bathroom probably less than 10 times ever. Now, our new employee has been here for 3 weeks and I run into her in the bathroom at LEAST twice a day. I sympathize if she has bowel issues, but it just stinks (no pun intended) not getting any privacy in the bathroom anymore. It seems like she’s in there every time I need to go #2.

    1. Mama Bear*

      Can you use another floor? Or maybe drink your coffee at a different time of day (if that’s the culprit) and see if it helps?

      1. valentine*

        Tell your bowels they now have a bathroom buddy. Accept it, and maybe she will suddenly change her schedule.

  202. Me--Blargh!*

    UPDATE

    No updates.

    I did find a job post that would be PERFECT for me and spent all afternoon applying. It asked for 1-2 years of experience and I have 3-4, plus 10 in client care. Though LinkedIn shows 51 other applicants, all probably in the BigNewEnglandCity area where the job is, that will undoubtedly skunk me. :P

    But I can’t do anything until somebody BUYS THIS STUPID HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate waiting for other people. *fumes*

        1. Me--Blargh!*

          She didn’t, but the bank told her she can’t get a loan without 20% down, which she doesn’t have, as it would be considered a second home. The house isn’t eligible for an FHA loan because it has issues and I can’t fix anything. The only other options are for her to do a rent-to-own thing or take over the loan, but then I get nothing. I walk away clear, but I also have nothing. The whole point of selling it is to get something!

          There’s a lot of flipping going on in my neighborhood; it’s getting nicer in slow increments. An investor could probably make some decent money selling or renting it. I had one realtor text me that her buyer was interested, but they had a few others to look at and I never heard back. I guess he decided on something else.

          Neighbor said she was going to look at other options, including a credit union, but to go ahead and accept an offer if I got a good one. Obviously, the best bet would be for her to buy it and then rent it to Dog Lady.

          Now I”m just waiting for someone to make me a decent offer. I cannot. Wait. Any. More. I. Need. To. Get. Out. Of. Here. I need to go back to work. But I can’t move anywhere without house money, and I don’t want to be with my mum for very long. It’s the worst kind of catch-22. >_<

  203. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    So much happening in non-Hellmouth work related news! So little time to actually type any of it up! This week has brought about a feud with a sports radio personality, an incident where I had to hide in a file closet for half an hour to escape a wanna be employee with GUMPTION, and (most happily and as of 5 minutes ago) an invitation to interview for one of the state jobs I have been waiting to hear back about! It has been an insane but fairly happy (and entertaining when not actively happy) week!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Sure, I’ll try to write it up tomorrow if there is any down time at work… the GUMPTION chick was pretty unbelievable.

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Nope, it’s actually very roomy and well ventilated. It’s also where the monitor for all of the security cameras happens to be located, which is why I was in there… I was hiding until I was sure she was gone! :D

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Oh man, not only did I lease to a guy who thinks he’s Howard Stern levels of important, he also thinks he doesn’t have to follow rules or be… well, pleasant. AND it turns out that he has personally been a super crappy Jerky McJerkface to three other members of my family (including my biological father, AT OUR HOUSE when I was, like, 3 or 4 years old and was playing in the backyard), which I had absolutely no idea about until I called my mom on my lunch break to laugh about the turdly behavior of this dingus. THE WORLD IS SO SMALL.

  204. Auntie Social*

    I’m in California: company’s international teleconferences means I get up at 4:00 to get ready for 6 am meetings. Sometimes I do the calls from home, sometimes in the office. If I take it in the office, afterwards I’ll go out and get a coffee and stretch my legs. When I come back, more of my team has gotten in, and I get comments like “about time” and “hey slacker”. I want to say something like “so you want to join me on my next TC?? Next one is Tuesday at 6:00 am.” I’m good about letting staff have flex time for their dental appointments, etc. so I wonder if they really think they’re entitled to comment on their manager’s hours–their visual is that manager doesn’t have rear in chair all day every day.
    How do I explain that my day started 3 hours before theirs did, and I don’t appreciate the remarks? The subject matter of the calls doesn’t affect them so I haven’t yet brought them up in team meetings. Do I say “you may have noticed that once a week I’m not in until 9:00, this is what I’m doing”?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Do you have a calendar that you can let everyone have access to?

      Some folks here strongly believe that it’s none of the employees’ business how you set your hours.

      I tend to be in the middle on this one. Perhaps it’s because of having a few vanishing bosses. The remarks are Not Cool at all, however. I do think that a wise boss gives some clue as to how their week is laid out. This can be just a few sentences: ” On Tuesday and Thursday I have meetings at 6 am. On Friday I will OOO all day.”

      I say this because nothing helps morale to tank like a vanishing boss. People do watch the hours a boss keeps and I don’t think it’s realistic to think that will stop any time soon. If the boss is a micromanager, the employees watch even closer. While you are probably a fine boss, you may have micromanagers above you who insist on watching the clock on your employees. That’s not good. If you are satisfied with their efforts, then that should be enough.

      If you are having regular team meetings, I would mention this to the group. “I have been hearing remarks such as ‘must be nice’ or ‘slacker’ in reference to the hours I keep. I want US* to change what we are doing here. I do understand that sometimes you all need me for something. So I have decided that I am going to [post a calendar online/announce in meetings/whatever] a rough idea of what I have lined up for this week/two weeks/month. Here is how you contact me/leave a message when I am not here [contact info].” (Notice the use of the word “us”.)

      So this is the nice approach. See how far it goes. If it’s enough then GOOD! But if it’s not enough, then it might be time to have conversations one-on-one with the remaining offenders. In one-on-ones you can point out that it’s up to your boss to keep track of your hours and your work, NOT them. You would like to have everyone know how or when they can find you, but you are not accountable to them for your hours worked each week.

      I think I might go as far as saying, “Addressing people as ‘hey, slacker’ (etc.) is just not appropriate NO matter who we are talking about. I do not expect to hear that any more.”

    2. Close Bracket*

      “I was here at 6. How about you?”

      Or for when you take them from home,

      “I started work at 6. How about you?”

      The key is the delivery. Say it in the manner of good naturedly giving someone a hard time (which is probably how they are delivering their comments to you).

    3. LQ*

      Is it possible they are …aware comments? I’ve had folks make them to me. They know absolutely I’m here before them, and I’m here long after them. It’s always a joke kind of comment. It’s the other side of “…Did you even go home to change?” But some people will say when I leave on time “see ya slacker” because they know damn well I’m not. It’s all from people who are good humored and who stick their head in my office to tell me to go home at least once a week when they are leaving.

      I know these people, I really like (most of) these people, I know they know I’m not a slacker AT ALL. But when I’ve had a bad day it still cuts through.

      Yes, I just got back from getting coffee, I’ve been here for 2 hours and had 3 “chats” with folks already, I deserve good coffee already.

      If you think it’s possible they are in good humor you can try good humor back. “Totally, I’ve only been here since 6, tomorrow I’m going for 5:45!” or “I know right, I barely put in 13 hours yesterday, I’m never going to make my quota at this rate!”

    5. Bagpuss*

      Would a wide-eyed “Wait, you think arriving at 6 a.m. is slacking?” work?
      Or just a straight- “you do realise I’ve been here since 6?”

    6. Wild Bluebell*

      Have you ever mentioned to them that you have 6am meetings? If not, then how are they supposed to know.

      1. valentine*

        how are they supposed to know.
        It’s none of their business. If they need Auntie Social sooner, they should say so.

        I’d tell them it’s inappropriate and to mind their own business.

        1. tamarack and fireweed*

          In many work environments this would be a recipe for low morale. I agree with Not So NewReader above that an absentee boss is a big downer, and I would add to this the unpredictable boss. Teams work better together when they know in rough terms what their manager is up to, how much space in their portfolio of responsibilities “managing our team” takes up, and what else there is. It doesn’t have to be in person – even a fully remotely working manager can be present via chat channels and status messages and shared calendars.

          There are practical reasons for this, too, beyond being reassuring to the reports. If the director of the next unit over wanders in, knocks on the door, and when there is no answer, just generally asks the room “Do you know where Auntie Social is? I was hoping to grab them for a quick chat…” it is embarrassing if you have to shrug and say “no idea” rather than “she has a client call with Hungary every Tuesday at 6 am – normally she’s back at her desk fully by around 9:30” or “he’s at the strategic planning meeting with the rest of [division leadership] in [town]”. Of course I’m talking your garden variety manager here, who is involved in the day-to-day work of a team of say half a dozen or so, and in addition has some extra responsibilities, like serving on a particular project team and handling the calls with three high-value customers personally. Very senior people have a layer of admin assistants, and a process how to book time with them.

    7. CM*

      If your expectation for your team is that they have to show up at a certain time every morning (8 AM or whenever), then it’s worth clarifying that you’re also doing that so that you don’t look like a hypocrite. Next time you have a team meeting, I’d just say something along those lines — hey, I know I hold you to a fixed start time and I wanted to clarify that, one day a week, I have a teleconference at 6 AM that shifts my day around. I wouldn’t want you to think I’m holding myself to a different standard.”

      If you’re not expecting people to have a fixed start them, then it’s weird that this is becoming an issue, and I’d just respond in the moment by saying something like, “I can’t tell if you actually think I just got here,” and then clarifying based on the response. In a case where people are allowed to have flexible start times, and they’re being weird about your hours, it still might make sense to talk about schedule flexibility in a team meeting to make sure you’re all on the same page.

  205. CatchingUp*

    Long time reader of aam and could use some advice from the commenters here. I received a promotion and raise last year, but was told that throughout the organization, money was tight and it was implied that the next year or when profits increase that I will get another raise. How do I handle this in my next yearly review? I would like to have my salary be on par with others in my position and title, but feel because I was promoted in an “off” year, I will forever be behind!

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Are you able to ask around your colleagues at your new level and find out what their salaries look like? Then you’ll at least know for sure whether your salary is more or less in line with theirs (with allowance made for length of time at the company etc.) and will have a solid basis for asking for more money if it’s warranted. Similarly, pay attention to the company’s profits, insofar as you have information about that, and if there’s a big bump, that’s a great time to drop your manager saying, “So glad to see Teapots Inc. is doing well! I remember that at my review we discussed money being a little tight, and it’s great that that’s no longer the case.”

      Beyond that, just make sure to bring up this year’s lack of raise in next year’s review, as long as it’s a positive review: “Just to refresh your memory, I didn’t get a raise in 2019 because profits were down. I want to check in about this year’s raise and confirm that it will bring my salary in line with others in my position.” Then see what response you get.

      If they keep making excuses for not giving you a raise, that might be a hint that it’s time to look for another job.

  206. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    I’m in a long slow grinding transition from old!job to new!job at the same company. It started in May and will be done, if I’m lucky, in November. Right now I’m doing 90% old!job and 10% new!job; in a few weeks it’ll be 50/50, with a part-timer covering the other half of old!job; and if the new project pans out, I’ll be full-time Director of Alpaca Exams sometime around November 1. Or it won’t and I won’t, but let’s hope for the best.

    How the hell do I cope with this? What makes these transition periods workable and bearable? I am leaning very heavily on my OmniFocus to-do list but it’s still a massive headache keeping track of two things at once, and once I’m training up the part-timer it’ll be three things. Help.

    1. LQ*

      A huge part of this for me was finding acceptance of a handful of things (which may or may not be true for you).
      1. People are going to do things different, the more you can encourage that with someone who is …not quite aggressive but maybe eager the better off you’ll be. The thing I said a lot was “Please feel like you can burn down whatever I built as long as you grow something new with the ashes.”
      2. People still come to me as the expert even a long year after my long transition off. Likely there will never be another me in that role because…maybe I shouldn’t have been me in that role so people may still come to me 10 years from now expecting it to be just as fresh and confused about why it isn’t. Reaching down into your brain and pulling out the best you can is good, especially if you are in a higher relationship kind of role in new!job.
      3. Realize that it will be more work and accept that, but draw lines around it. Whatever that looks like for you. Leaving at 5 to go to the gym but you’ll work Saturday mornings, or working late but never weekends, or whatever you have, but if you start with a hard NOPE it makes you structure your days better.
      4. I used physical folders pretty heavily in transitioning (along with Omnifocus, plus monday.com and jira…oof). Green folders meant old!job. Red folders mean new!job. Just the visual que and the physical act of reorganizing my space helped. I’d also suggest if possible dedicating at least a day a week to each side until you can get the old!job down to under 8 hours then give it 1 hour a day, no more. Pre-block that hour on your schedule.
      5. The time you invest in training your new person is worth GOLD. Focus on that over all else. If you can do that you’ll soar through the rest. Seriously. Do not let that fall to a low priority. All your old!job time should be spent with that new person. Even if you just have them sit and watch you enter stuff into a spreadsheet. Seriously. Do not do old!job stuff without new person by your side. Ideally you’d have a structure and schedule, but whatever you likely won’t, I knew better and still didn’t. But just saying, “Hey, I have this old!job thing I have to fix, do you have a half hour to stop by and watch me do it?” was always the best thing I did that day. Ideally talking through not just what I’m doing to fix it but why I’m doing it that way, what the pitfalls are, etc. Then next time make them do it while you watch. Then the time after just send it over to them and tell them to come to you with questions.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Thank you! I’m fine with all the aspects of this that are about someone else taking over the job I’ve been doing: they’re highly qualified and capable, they get to set up their own systems, once I move over to 100% alpaca work I will firmly redirect all llama questions to my successor, we have a solid training plan and schedule, and they’ve freelanced for me so I know we work well together. (I actually recommended them for the job based on their freelance work.) It’s more the psychological burden of enduring a neither-here-nor-there period that’s going to last this long, and the mental overhead of keeping track of everything.

        Everything I do is digital, so I can’t do as much with color-coding, but I’m going to have a new email address (new!job is in a separate division of the company that has its own domain) and I’ll see whether I can set Outlook (blech) to have a different skin or layout depending on which account I’m looking at.

        In theory, once the new person is trained up and taking half the llama work, almost all of my llama work will be done on Thursdays and the rest of the week will be for alpacas. Temporal separation of tasks is the hardest thing for me because I WFH and my schedule is flexible, so I think I’m going to need to be more structured and disciplined. Something like “from 10 to 2 I do alpacas, then from 2 to 3 I check my llama email and handle anything urgent, from 3 to 5 it’s more alpacas, and from 5 to 6 I do the more routine llama work and send a bunch of form replies directing people to talk to my replacement about llama-related matters” would probably be good for me.

        I guess I also just want to vent about long transitions being HARD. I want to know where I stand! I want to be able to tell people I’m leaving the llama field, and set that “no more llama questions” boundary, and clear my head of all things llama so I can focus on alpacas! I’m creating a brand new department—we’ve never done alpaca exams before, though we’ve done other alpaca-related work—and my new boss is very much the sort to say “I trust you to go about this the way you think is best” and be supportive but hands-off, so I don’t have anyone building structure for me. I’m having to figure out every part of the task list from zero to launch while getting to know all the people in the alpaca division. The executive function workload of building something new from scratch is immense. I’m feeling some intense pressure to make good on my promise that we can bring in a lot of money by branching out into alpaca exams. Coping with all of that while also doing my llama work is exhausting and overwhelming.

        But soon, soon, soon it will be done. And at least my raise has kicked in.

  207. Depressed-CP*

    Hi, just a quick shout for HR Peeps–

    I have my SHRM-CP already and I was wondering about the PHR from the HRCI? I self-studied for two months and passed the SHRM-CP on the first try, and I wanted to know from people who had one or both if that was feasible for the PHR as well? Slash how much harder is it? Does it require any math? I have a serious math anxiety problem so I’d be really concerned if I had to do math for it…

    Thanks in advance all!

  208. Edith*

    I have requested an accomodation at work for a disability (invisible). My request was to have a place to basically retreat to when the office becomes overwhelming with noise or distractions (this happens quite a bit at my office). HR told me at the end of the day that I would have a my own “temporary” office in the next building. But temporary is in quotes there, because I was told we would reassess the situation in about a month to see if I still need this accommodation as less people will be in the original office by then.

    My quandary is how to explain this to coworkers in a way that they understand this isn’t any sort of favoritism. I don’t think they will understand my issues with concentrating, because they don’t seem to get other things related to it.

    1. Close Bracket*

      “Oh, it’s temporary. I think they are waiting to for all the people who are going to sit somewhere else to leave so they can assign me something permanent.”

  209. Jellyfish*

    I’ve asked for advice or input a few times on here during my recent job search. I started my new job this week, and it has been excellent! I haven’t actually done much, being my first week, but this seems like a great fit. I moved cross country to take the position, so I was a little concerned about what would happen if things didn’t go well.
    Just wanted to say thank you to the AAM community!

  210. Rachel*

    Can someone provide me with some advice? I just started a job a couple of weeks ago, and today on the way to work, someone kind of cut me off when I was getting on the highway. I shouldn’t have done anything, but I honked my horn and looked over at them while yelling “geez, dude!” (So original, I know). Anyway, we made eye contact, and sure enough, it was my new coworker *palm to face*

    I feel so dumb – what should I do on Monday? Pretend it never happened? We’re about half of a small department, and we have to work very closely together. What do I do?

    1. WellRed*

      I vote for ignore. It’s bliss. Ya know! Plus, sounds like co-worker is the one ay fault.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ignore it! He cut you off, he has to be reaaaaaaaaaaaaally ridiculous to bring it up ever again. It’s not like you had full on road rage or flipped it off it sounds like [and even if you flipped him off, whatever he cut you off!]

  211. Close Bracket*

    Y’all. I was on a conference call today with one other person in the room with me. I introduced the purpose of the call and started talking. When I paused, Fergus, who was in another room, jumped in to introduce the purpose of the call. I muted the phone and said to the person in the room with me, “Isn’t that what I just said?” He kind of rolled his eyes and agreed. I unmuted the phone and when Fergus stopped talking, I said, “Thanks Fergus for supporting that” or something along those lines. I was just like, “wow, I am living an article on how to respond when a man repeats something you just said.”

    1. Kathenus*

      Congrats on addressing it in the moment so well – both on mute calling Fergus out and to the others on the call (but in a professional way). It’s not always easy to react quickly when something like this happens, but it sounds like you handled it great!

    2. tamarack and fireweed*

      Yes, well done! I *once or twice* managed to get through with the same strategy. A friend of mine (a database administrator in, at the time, a “don’t care” department where she was the only woman) once almost hugged me when I suggested this very tactic to her since this kind of behavior was completely endemic in her team.

  212. Even Steven*

    I am very late to the game, but just wanted to report in with this news in case no one has yet mentioned it. I have not seen it here yet.

    On July 28th, the State of Washington implemented a really cool law. Since that day, prospective employers may not ask job applicants or their references about the applicant’s previous salary. Yeah!! Better yet, employers must disclose the salary base for the job if the applicants ask. About time! WA joins California and Oregon in doing this. Great news! It’s not perfect (like, why not just put the salary range in the job description to save all the guessing?), but it’s a good start. I hope it helps AAM commenters to know about it.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Yay for team Left Coast!
      Damn, I miss it. I’m not in an overly conservative area, but my state is not very progressive either.

  213. heckofabecca*

    I’m a college student who was asked to write a letter of recommendation for my religious studies professors as he enters his tenure-seeking year. Is there anything in particular that committees look for when considering tenure candidates? He’s an awesome professor, and he definitely deserves tenure—so I want to make sure I know any insider tips to help get him there :) Thanks in advance!

    1. Reliquary*

      It’s unusual to have students write letters of support for tenure, but perhaps you’re at a college that values teaching above all else, where that would make sense.

      Here’s the main thing about ANY letter of rec: Don’t just write superlatives. Back up any claim you make about his teaching with evidence. If you want to mention how well he facilitates discussion in his classrooms, give an example of a time when he smoothly addressed one student being overbearing, or lifted up the voice of someone who would otherwise have been overlooked. If you want to talk about the clarity or creativity of the assignments he creates, give examples that illustrate why those assignments worked so well for you, or helped you to see the overarching point of the class.

      Good luck to you and to your professor!

  214. toxic boss advice*

    Any advice from the hive on handling a toxic boss in the last two weeks? I gave notice and got the worst response ever from this person, and my group is telling me to be careful of this boss because they’re a narcissist who’s going to make my last few weeks hell.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Can you leave even earlier? Two weeks’ notice is a professional courtesy, but your boss is not being courteous at all, so I think you’re entitled to leave a little earlier, especially if you live in an at-will state.

      1. toxic boss advice*

        I’m trying to hold on because I want the pay… the boss has given me the cold shoulder for the past month or so (not talking to me), so I’m somewhat hopeful this’ll continue until my last day. Totally not expecting a reference at this point so leaving earlier isn’t out of the picture but trying to avoid it.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          Can you frame it in your mind as you’re researching bad bosses for the last two weeks? When he does anything, mentally think “that’s going in chapter 4!” or “ohh, that’s a good quote…” so that you don’t let it get to you and you can collect the pay?

          Also maybe write it for real ;)

    2. MissDisplaced*

      If you’re trying to hang on, I’d suggest just keeping your contact with ToxicBoss to a bare minimum.
      If they ask you for anything, be polite and factual, don’t elaborate on anything or enter into discussions. Wrap up your work as best you can, hand off to whomever makes sense, and leave with your head held high.

      I’d also find out for the references if you can just go through HR. If they ask why, you can say “I’m trying to be professional and leave on good terms, but ToxicBoss did not have a very positive reaction to my giving notice and I would like to know how a future reference checks would be handled.”

    3. CM*

      Depending on how they’re going to make your last two weeks hell, you can sometimes just refuse to participate. Like, if hell week involves suddenly needing to work a bunch of overtime, don’t be available for overtime. Or, if it involves doing a long, tedious task that you normally wouldn’t be assigned to do, let it take longer than two weeks to finish it. If hell week involves getting yelled at, refuse to stay in the same room as someone who’s yelling (this is a good boundary in general).

      I get that there’s an underlying fear that, if you don’t appease your boss, s/he’ll do something to try to nuke your new job opportunity. Which is why it would be an amazing idea not to tell them where you’re going if you haven’t already. But, if you’re perfectly polite and low-key about refusing to do whatever activities they’ve set up for hell week, there’s not a HUGE chance that they can do anything to mess things up for you.

  215. Mockingbird 2*

    I’ve recently started a new job that I’m excited about. However, my last job was a training position and I had an awful experience. While I think some of it was the nature of training the program/company was toxic IMO. I’ll be working with students who will likely ask about where I trained since that is a requirement in our field. I don’t want to lead them astray but I also want to approach answering this type of question professionally and without ruining the networking contacts I do have there… any tips/scripts?

  216. Anon123_me*

    How honest should you be about advancement prospects?

    We have an employee who is on the autism spectrum (self disclosed but not requested accommodations). He is a great employee who has been here for several years in a highly specialized role.

    He is now talking about wanting to advance in his career. The problem is we have nowhere to advance him to; any advancement would be to a role he would not be successful in :(public facing, and heavy social skills demands )

    I think that we should tell him the truth about his advancement prospects. However I’m also afraid that telling him would cause him to lose motivation

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Disclaimer: I’m not a manager.

      Instead of framing this as, “You’ll never be promoted”, both to the emoloyee and in your head, ask yourself, “What would I expect any employee to demonstrate in order to be considered for a promotion into the next step in this career path? (I.e. Specific technical and soft skills).”

      Share that with your employee and do what you can to coach them to develop those skills. Assuming they can’t do something is a good way to lose a valuable employee and create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        This is a great start.

        I would also be careful about making sure you’re thinking of the advancement prospects for Fergus, who happens to be autistic and also has many specific personality traits and skills that you know about because you work with him, vs. the advancement prospects for a stereotypical autistic person. I’m autistic and I have excellent social skills; I’ve excelled in public-facing roles in the past. So make sure you present this to Fergus as “I want to make sure you’re aware of what advancement would entail, let’s talk about which parts of that would be challenging specifically for you” rather than assuming that he’s just going to be hopeless at it.

        Also, keep an eye out for lateral move opportunities for him. Maybe the only direct advancement path from llama grooming specialist is to move into doing llama grooming demos at trade shows, which might be a challenge for him, but is there a llama grooming tools R&D job that could use his skills and knowledge? Can you ask him what specifically he’s looking for and interested in when it comes to his next role? A little creative thinking could go some spectacular places.

    2. designbot*

      I’d talk him through your thinking. Explain what the expectations are of people in the positions that would be the natural next step. Ask him how he sees himself functioning in that role. If he has any self-awareness he’ll admit that it would be a major challenge, and that gives you an opportunity to tell him to think about what role he thinks *could* be a good next step for him so you can talk through a plan to get him there.

    3. Another Manic Monday*

      He need to be able to advance his career either with your organization or go somewhere else. You need to be very clear and honest about what would be expected of him if he takes on a higher position within the organization. Also have an honest conversation about other career options that he might want to pursue if advancing within the organization isn’t a realistic option for him. Not telling him the truth about his advancement prospects isn’t really a good option and will do more harm than good.

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      There are a few ways to handle it… but one thing I’m wondering is why you think he would not be successful in that role? If it is because he has self-disclosed that he has autism then basing promotion thoughts on that could cause you issues with various anti-discrimination regulations (depending on where you live) and even if not illegal where you are, is definitely not a good practice

    5. LQ*

      I’d make sure you’re clear with him on what he sees advancement being. Does he want to be a manager etc or does he just want more interesting work? For a long time I wanted advancement of more interesting projects. You may be able to do a lot of that.

      I’d also consider what kind of pairing could work well. I think for a while I worked with other folks who were able to do more complex work with me than either of us would have been able to do alone. While that seems pretty “duh” it helps to just have sort of an idea of “these two folks are a team” who get put on really complex work together. Having someone else do project management for me meant I was able to heads down on technical things. I suspect that she would have failed pretty hard if someone else had been the partner for her (mostly because she failed pretty hard with other folks before and after me), and I know I was way more successful for having her there doing work that would have stalled me out to ineffectiveness even on the work I liked and was good at. And having it just be one person meant a lot because I’m able to create strategies to deal with that, and you can get one person to like you well enough because you help them do more. It’s harder to get 10, or worse, 100s of Random Joe McClients on your side.

      Be explicit about what skills are required in the roles. Not just “public facing” or “heavy social skills” but what does that mean. “You’ll deal with frustrated clients on a daily basis, you’ll likely have at least one person threatening to fire the whole company weekly. Your job is to not only talk them down, but get them signed back onto another year with us. In between all those calls you’ll be doing other calls like soliciting new clients. About 90% of the job is on the phone or sending emails, and you’ll need to make most of them calls because you’ll need to be able to be very attuned to people’s nonverbal communication. Frequently they’ll send emails that appear perfectly polite but they are seethingly mad so you’ll have to call, get them to tell you why, explain how we’ll fix it, and leave them happier than they were.”

      Job shadowing of a kind might be useful too.

    6. Close Bracket*

      You address it exactly the same way with any person in any role that required a certain amount of skills. You talk about the role that is available. You talk about what it entails. You talk about what will be expected of the employee while in it. As with most advancement, he would probably have to demonstrate that he can work at that level before being promoted. So you talk about opportunities for him to be in public facing positions. You see how he does. You give him coaching or training for anything that needs improvement. I am autistic, and I have better social skills than most of the allistic people I know. Don’t make assumptions.

  217. Boundaries_Abound*

    1st time poster here! I am returning to my old job, which I am extremely excited about. I took a break to complete my degree. I have an old coworker who overstepped many, many boundaries when I worked there before. Not just with me. She has no sense of professional norms and boundaries. I unfortunately gave her a pass in the past and she took my kindness way too far by basically sexually harassing a male coworker in another department into dating me. (I put a stop to it…but it was bad.) My question is, how do I essentially “rebrand” myself and she my true desire for professional boundaries and space at work? I am great at setting boundaries outside of work, but fall short once I clock in. Now that I’m typing this all out, I may send a letter to you Allison. There are so many details that I have to leave out because this is just a comment.

    1. Mockingbird 2*

      Without having a lot of details maybe be a person (with her) who doesn’t do “work friends” and only ever wants to talk about work? We had a rude, pushy coworker at my last job (though not to her extent, wow!) and that’s kind of how I acted towards her. I also let her talk about herself but didn’t volunteer anything personal in reply because I didn’t want her to use anything against me. As far as boundaries with this person I felt uncomfortable because I ended up being far more blunt with her than I usually am and it felt rude or unprofessional to me at first. I employed two strategies, one was “I’m busy” if she asked for favours, and the other was to make her problems about me. For example when she was spending a ton of time dividing assignments… so that she got the easiest ones… I was like oh you know what I feel time crunched so I’d like to just take the first assignments available from now on, can you help me out by agreeing to that? (It was about the time but more about her dumping the worst tasks on me and the others…)

      1. Mirror Lampshade*

        Yes, one of my best “soft” strategies with boundary-pushers is to RELENTLESSLY ask them about their own lives (kids/dogs/weekends/etc). It has helped deflect many an overly-personal inquiry.

  218. Dove*

    What’s the best way to explain, on job applications, why I left my previous job?

    The bald truth is that I was forced to quit, because my team manager didn’t want to put in the effort of coaching me on how to be louder. (It was a call center job.) Obviously, though, I can’t tell the bald truth – but I don’t want to lie, either! I’ve been going with a half-truth so far, and saying that it was because I moved (and I did move…a couple years *after* that), but I don’t know if that’s the best option.

    1. Cedrus Libani*

      Are you applying for jobs that require loudness? I’d just admit to it. You’d probably want to avoid any hint that you think the manager was lazy for not coaching you (even if that’s the truth). Manager thought your voice wasn’t loud enough, so you were let go, end story. If you’re applying for another call center job, maybe insert a sentence on how you learned to be loud and it’s not a problem anymore.

      1. Dove*

        I’m trying to avoid applying for jobs that require loudness. So it’s more a matter of “what do I say that doesn’t even hint of the idea that I think the manager was trying to avoid having to do her job, and ensure that it at least matches up with what the call center might say if they even still have a record of me working there”.

        1. Wild Bluebell*

          Maybe you could say that that job wasn’t a good fit for you, and give that example that you needed to be loud, and you’re not really a loud person.

          1. CM*

            I agree with this. Also, if it helps, I used to work at a call centre and, whenever I mention it to anyone, they immediately understand that’s a shitty job without me needing to explain it. If you say something vague about how it wasn’t a good fit for you or whatever, that’s not going to be difficult to accept.

            However, I also understand that you feel that what happened to you was unfair, and that there’s a powerful urge to mention that part of the story whenever the subject comes up (I struggle with that, too). I don’t really know what the solution to that part is. The times I’ve succeeded in not bringing it up, it was honestly just because the topic passed by very quickly.

          2. tamarack and fireweed*

            I agree with this script, too.

            Your instinct is absolutely right, that you should pretty much never criticize previous managers in an interview. It is not the right situation to delve into complicated judgement over who-did-what, and not the purpose of a job interview.

            But it is also pretty much never necessary to do this when truthfully answering questions. The problem is sometimes that your intimate knowledge of the situation makes you answer questions (to yourself) in too fine-grained a manner. Why did you leave? Because your manager refused to coach you and you were pressured into quitting. Well, yes, but how would a non-involved observer describe the situation? Because you weren’t a good fit to the way the organization worked.

            What you can’t do is lie. Were you fired, laid off or handed in your resignation? You say you were “forced to quit”, so that means “I resigned from a job that was a bad fit”. If you were actually dismissed for having too soft a voice, you say it, matter of fact. “My voice was too soft for the call center environment, which was particularly noisy. So they ended up terminating my employment”. I mean, you’re talking with them, so they can hear your voice. Even if your voice is much softer than the average, for the vast majority of jobs this should not make any difference.

            The worst-case scenario for you in an interview that is professionally run might go something like this:
            – It was a call center, and particularly noisy. And my voice is just naturally too soft. So this was a very bad fit, and we ended up parting ways.
            – Your VOICE was to soft?! Your voice sounds fine to me. Couldn’t your supervisor coach you?
            – I guess it would have been possible, but in that environment it wasn’t done.
            – Oh, I see.

            The reality is, experienced hiring managers will have seen it all: Employees who were let go or pushed out unfairly, and employees who THINK they were let go unfairly, but they weren’t aware how bad their performance was. And they can’t know which one it is if you fault your former manager for something to do with losing/leaving a previous job. So you’d be putting the interviewer in an unpleasant situation to be unable to come down on one side (“I’d like to believe the guy, but I have absolutely no idea what this situation looked like from the employer’s perspective, gah!”). This would reflect badly on how they feel about you.

            1. tamarack and fireweed*

              I just re-read the OP and noticed you’re saying “on job applications”. You don’t have to! You just say what your last job was. On the CV, dates. In the cover letter, you talk about your skills, how you used them in the past etc.

  219. NoLongerYoung*

    Summary – how do say no, quit caring so much, and let folks crash and burn – and your entire area with them?

    So… I’ve been working too many hours, and on paper, I’m allocated at > 150%. (about 2x as much work as 80% of my level peers – I have a couple who are doing the pace I am, so I am not alone. Worse, I am doing the job of someone a level up right now for about half of that work).

    I know I care too much about my “kind of teapots” and unfortunately, I’m the only person who knows enough about why the market needs these changes, to do the job right now. (at my level, we are understaffed, and I’m overqualified for my role, btw).

    Even worse, others up the production line who are suppose to know about the teapot strategy for my kind of teapots -and are on the leadership teams to do reports on the teapots, to build another production line – have not stepped to the plate to do their job.

    Just in the first three days this week, it was shown that
    1) one “senior manager/director” who is assigned to do “teapot strategy” for my team 50%, still doesn’t know how they work or any part of the strategy- even though she has been in the role for over 6 months, attends every meeting I attend, and previously supported – supposedly- general teapots for several years. I think she just arranges meetings for her boss and fills out power point templates per his direction, since she isn’t even picking up or understanding things she should have brought to “this specific teapot” from “general teapots.” Basic things, like what the name of the acronym for our set of general customers refers to… So she works – as far as I can tell – about 50% of the time, and won’t take on any of the strategy tasks unless it – you guessed it – is filling out an already existing power point template where she has an example. (and – a grade level higher, and about 25K a year more).

    2) My newer project manager (assigned to me 8 weeks, 2 week transition, so 6 weeks on her own) to oversee all my teapot projects and deliverables, is missing over 50% of the time, has yet to meet with me directly, and it requires that I send a follow up email to ask her when she is going to take an action on my previous request(s) before I even get an acknowledgement of the first request. The only things getting done are the status reports where she has to report back to her line manager weekly. The tracker, and files, her predecessor set up for her? Untouched for the last 6 weeks. (we share the files location, I can see any edits and log ins). I did two weeks worth of work on one core document, only to hear from her at 4 pm today that she “just found out” we are suppose to be using a different version of the template for that document. (she’s suppose to have been managing this project for a month but just checked today to get the deliverable templates identified).

    3) A team was suppose to put together a very specific, financial/ strategy/ KPI document for discussion with my primary customer, who must consent to the next round of big teapot line financing. It required what – strategy and product knowledge. (there is a template). The guy who was going to facilitate the discussion had walked us through it, sent an example, but explained that this was something “we” had to fill out. Sent it over, 2 pm for a draft to be done by 10 am the next morning for a team review. Crickets… not a single hand raised. (Did I mention this is actually a team of 4, including the one whose job this is suppose to be? The person in item 1) So I did the document. I did a great job. I waited until 8 pm – in case any one else was going to do it. Zero… not a “I will take a cut can you look in the morning” or “I can do a draft tomorrow…” zero response.

    But I got my hand slapped for working too many hours / too late at night.

    Boss flat out told me to cut back to 45 hours a week. That it is okay to let everything else crash and burn, that they’d rather lose the project/ lose ground (multi-million dollar request pending)… than have me burn out.

    I understand if I keep picking up the key slack, and covering for folks, the deficiencies here won’t get fixed. That they won’t staff up if I don’t let them see that this is not sustainable.

    It’s clearly “my brain” that is overly responsible and taking this personally. I don’t know why I feel such ownership (it is a very big deal, really, but not the end of the world if this crashes).

    How do I say no? How do I let it go? I love working on the teapot strategy, and I’ve been pulled “up” to help with this, and want a promotion into doing it full time…. So I’m maybe trying too hard? But if we do not make these deadlines, it’s another 2 years before we get to ask for the big money for a new production line again, for my kind of teapots. (all the requests go in together, and everyone else’s teams are getting their work done, so 4 out of 5 of these “funding packages” are being assembled successfully).

    I trust grandboss. I know I am stressing out about this…. so how do I get the brain to be “okay” with this looming disaster? I will mention that 4 years ago, I did a slightly lower level, herculean task and held it together for an entire production line (it was a simpler line of teapots)… and I got a pat on the head but a great reputation. I have great street credibility, so they know if it crashes and burns it is out of my control.

    I just don’t know how to let that scenario be okay with my brain. Outwardly, I keep a calm demeanor, and a helpful smile on my face, and “keep learning and appreciate the feedback… please help coach me on this.” But inwardly, I’m screaming. How do I get the brain to shut up and let go?

    1. RVA Cat*

      This is *literally* above your pay grade.
      First off, as long as there are no safety issues involved, there is no disaster. Don’t burn yourself out trying to save a project that leadership has doomed to fail. Instead, pull back and put those energies towards moving on. Use that good reputation to go to a competitor, who likely has heard how you saved things four years ago and understands the value of that instead of taking you for granted.

      1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

        Good point. I’d like to stay here (I have about 6 years left to retirement and I have amazing benefits) but we are a big org – I “could” find something less interesting but with the same pay… and frankly, it “is” a pay raise if I’m working 10-15 hours less a week.

        I suspect her plan is that we DO need 2 people in this job… but her managers won’t give more help unless they “see” a need. So… I need to let her do this. She’s very savvy.

        I was head hunted, but did not want to go to a startup at this stage, unless there are some significant stock options and it is not a toxic, bro-culture. I can’t pass for “under 35” (although no one has ANY idea at work how old I really am, and I work hard at that…. and this is usually an industry where 30 is old). So I am ultra cautious. And my benefits are rich enough at this stage, that an extra 50K to move, commute a couple hours each way, and have no WFH flexibility… didn’t actually appeal. that’s a different post.

        REALLY appreciate your post and listening. I do need to remember this.

    2. Kathenus*

      The good news is you know all of the reasons TO let it go, you’ve very eloquently listed them in your post. And your boss is actually directing you to cut back and let things crash and burn – this is HUGE. While your boss mentioned not wanting you to burn out – and I’m sure this is true – she probably also knows that nothing will get changed over both of your heads until/unless things do crash and burn – so it seems like she’s looking at the little picture (one employee’s burnout) and the big picture (getting more appropriate resources or expectations going forward. It sounds like she has a plan to try to improve the whole situation, but without the consequences of the current situation being allowed to happen (the crash and burn), she may not have the leverage to help get change.

      So use all of the above to help generate the motivation to let it go to – short term disruption for long term changes, hopefully. If that’s not enough, realize that right now you are the one losing here – your time/stress/happiness. You’re keeping the company from experiencing negative consequences at your own expense. Nothing will change if you maintain the status quo, and the brunt of the negative impact of that is falling on you right now – not the company. And you have the ability to help change that – so take control of your happiness by taking your boss at her word and letting it go.

    3. LQ*

      Would you be ok taking a vacation? Like an actual vacation? Where you detach entirely? That can be a good way to pry yourself into a better space and let some of that fail.

      That all said I don’t really know because it’s really intensely hard and I’m right there with you, I’m taking a little lunch break at work today. Is anyone else doing work today? Nope. Will anyone else be working tomorrow? Nope. (Ok my boss likely will.) Did anyone else work until 7 last night? Nope. Will it all shatter if I step away? Unlikely but it feels like it and I know a few things will break. I just want to get a couple things across the finish line…I keep telling myself. But it isn’t really there if I had to drag it myself. (And dammit you deserve a BIG step up for this, I hope you get recognized for it soon!!)

      1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

        Yeah, just one more thing…. it will only take a half hour to do this one little document. or this one email… or…

        It is very hard to stop. I think I may have to simply set an alarm on my phone and shut down at a given hour, regardless. There will always be one more thing.

        Sending you an internet hug since you are working today and tomorrow. Ugh. I “should” be doing the group’s mandatory training online.. but refuse on principle. Not that I’ll say that. I just point out that I am too busy.

    4. The dude*

      One small point: if it’s not already in writing, make sure to get it in writing that you’re being instructed to cut back to 45 hours per week. Even if it’s just an email to your boss that says “To recap what you instructed me in our meeting last Tuesday…”

      Also, maybe a good idea to put in writing how your cutting back may affect the project. Do it in a neutral and unemotional voice: “As I’m cutting down my hours, X, Y, and Z will take longer to get done / may not get done at all, and that may impact the overall success of the project.” Definitely don’t phrase it as “things will crash and burn”.

      This is all for CYA purposes.

      1. LQ*

        If you feel like you need to CYA on this I’d say that you should be looking for a different job. I can’t imagine a lot of bosses taking a “you told me to let it burn down” email well, which is entirely what this is. It looks like you’re building a case for why the boss should be fired, not you. Which, if you’re CYAing, you are. (I’m not saying that OP should be fired over boss, I’m just saying that it looks like you’re building the case which means it looks like you think someone will be fired.)

        I think you have to either decide you trust your boss to not throw you under the bus on this, or CYA and job hunt with the rest of your hours a week. Working for someone you fundamentally don’t trust isn’t good.

        1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

          I do trust grand boss as much as anyone, and more than most. (although my secret saying is “trust is just a lower level of the suspicion everyone else gets” – I’m not big on trust in general.).

          And I probably won’t do the CYA, because my credibility inside the division is high enough, that if there was a problem, it wouldn’t be because of grand boss. Great-great grand boss might try to throw someone under the bus. But… I suspect grandboss is thinking it should be the people in examples 1 & 2 above. Or, I would be able to find a safe harbor elsewhere in the company (I’ve been headhunted by other divisions, too). My division has a bad reputation. I am very sure I do not.

          I will, however, make 100% sure that I am working only on the items she identifies as my top priorities, though. That’s really sound advice… as in -verbal, not email – “per our discussion Thursday,here’s a list of my current streams of work… I plan to focus on A, B and C; however, we will need to allocate the work and leadership for D-X, to someone else. I’ll work with boss to do that.” LOL thank you – really a good point.

    5. CM*

      The project is important to you, and you’re rightfully concerned about what your future’s going to look like if the company fails to secure funding for your area. It sounds like the people in management don’t particularly care about any of that.

      If you’re able to, I’d recommend having a frank (but not angry) discussion with somebody about what the long terms plans for your area are, what will happen if you DON’T get funding, and how you’ll fit into that scenario specifically (are you going to end up working on something else, is your job in danger, will you keep working in this area but have to scale back your efforts, etc). And then see how you feel about the answer.

      You may discover during those conversations that the company places very low value on the type of projects you’re doing, or that nobody understands why you would care about moving to a different type of project, or any number of other things that you don’t actually have to resign yourself to and be okay with. But, those things might signal that this is no longer an okay working arrangement for you and you need to try to leave.

      TL;DR being more chill about failure isn’t the real issue — the real issue is why you and the company aren’t aligned anymore about what kinds of things matter, and whether you want to keep working there if that’s the case.

  220. Justice Now!*

    How do you know when it’s time to just give up?
    I’m age 62, and after 26 years as a social worker I find myself without employment. I was terminated two weeks ago when my FMLA expired. I was refused reasonable accommodations so I can return to work. They’re reasoning was it would put burden on other employees. This is horse-hockey. (Trust me, I can say worse, trying to be civil). What can I do? I am in dire financial shape right now. I’m going to food banks so i don’t starve. Any legal recourses I can take? I feel I’m being discriminated against as I am disabled. I’ve lost my health insurance and COBRA is unaffordable.
    I am aware that AAM is geared to younger people, but I’m still a viable human being with lots of years left, I just can’t throw in the towel.

    1. Colette*

      That’s awful.

      Have you thought about what other work you can do? (I assume you have a decent level of computer skills and office experience?) I think your first priority has to be figuring out how you’re going to survive in the short term. I’m glad you’ve been able to access a food bank.

      I assume you’ve also evaluated your expenses, and are minimizing those where you can.

      It sounds like you may have a case for illegal discrimination, and if you have the chance for a free consult with a lawyer, that might be a good idea, but if anything comes of that, it’s a long term tuning and won’t help today.

      Good luck!

    2. Utoh!*

      Can you talk to a legal aid attorney about your situation to find out if you have any recourse? I don’t think you would be charged anything just to present your case (I’m sure those in the legal profession can weigh in here). I wish you the best in your tough circumstances and hope you can find other resources (state or local) that can assist you.

      1. Justice Now!*

        I’m currently seeking legal assistance. I’m applying for Medicaid, as my state has Medicaid expansion. I’ve applied for financial assist where I receive my healthcare. Will be applying for UI soon. Friends have mentioned EEOC and legal assistance. I just feel like I’m living on borrowed time without any future. Some friends said I should just apply for early SS, but it would be suck a small amount, I’d end up homeless. My emotional health is at risk at this time and I’m extremely stressed out. Since I have no health insurance, I’ve lost my therapist. I have nothing I can use to pay the fees. I’m evaluating what I can sell so I can pay the rent.

        1. tamarack and fireweed*

          This is just to add another “best of luck” and “this is an extremely terrible thing to happen”. You seem to have it reasonably together about next steps, which is very good! Short-term survival, getting the rent money together, food bank, apply for all the things you can in your state, also food stamps, Medicaid to ensure care. Free legal aid clinics to review your legal case?
          Then the mid-term options, maybe look over them with someone (what free counseling or advice services are available varies so much). If early SS would make it impossible to pay your current rent, you could look into cheaper housing first. Or if you find a job that keeps you afloat while you build up from this.
          Of course it would be great for you if you prevailed legally, but staking your home mainly on this would be dangerous. Fight our case, but ensure you have a base you can stand on.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t have much experience in this area, but at 62 can you file for disability?
      This is where the safety net is supposed to kick in. You’ve lost work through no fault of your own.

      I think first step may be to file for UI.
      I’m sorry this happened.

    4. YetAnotherUsername*

      I just want to say good luck. From what you’ve said it seems like they may have broken the law by refusing reasonable accommodation. You may also be eligible for a number of social services and benefits you should absolutely look into. Once you get over é 60 you can apply for a lot of stuff you didn’t even know existed so definitely look into everything you are eligible for. Good luck

  221. Heffalump*

    Some years ago I was working as a typesetter for a company that did direct mail advertising. I was swing shift. Sansa, a pasteup artist, and my manager were day shift. Sometimes I crossed paths with my manager when I came in, sometimes not. I virtually always crossed paths with Sansa.

    One of our major accounts had us doing a series of advertising flyers every six weeks. At one point we switched from traditional typesetting and pasteup to a desktop publishing system. A fair amount of the page makeup moved from the pasteup artists’ wheelhouse to the typesetters’ wheelhouse.

    One night when we were approaching deadline on a round of this customer’s flyers, Sansa brought me a bunch of changes. If she had brought me the changes two days earlier, it would have been a 10-minute task. At this point, it entailed undoing and redoing a lot of previous work and would take me an hour.

    I figured that Sansa probably didn’t understand the nuts and bolts of what I was doing and didn’t realize how I was being inconvenienced by this. I said matter-of-factly, “Please don’t make these last-minute changes. It generates a lot of unnecessary work for me.” The word “unnecessary” was key.

    Sansa didn’t say anything, and I assumed, perhaps naively, that this was a case of “silence gives assent.”

    Six weeks went by, and on the next round of flyers, Sansa brought me another batch of last-minute changes, as if the earlier conversation had never taken place. Very frustrating. We had the same conversation again, and again, I got crickets from her.

    Six weeks later she did it again. This time I lost it. When I got my composure back, I said, “It’s very inconvenient when you make these last-minute changes.”

    Sansa said, “Why is it inconvenient?” Hello? I had answered that question, twice, previously.

    I wrote my manager a note describing the situation and saying that it was driving me nuts. My manager wrote back and said, among other things, “Sansa has no control over this.”

    I brought the issue up a couple of weeks later at a departmental meeting. I went into detail on why the last-minute changes were labor-intensive. I didn’t name names, I tried to be polite about it, and my manager confirmed that I had succeeded at the latter. After that there were a lot fewer last-minute changes, so it usually wasn’t that they were unavoidable.

    If Sansa had no control over this, so be it. But the obvious, logical thing would have been for her to put me in touch with the people who did have control, or to pass my concerns on to them. Does anyone have any insights on why she might not have done this?

    1. Rainy*

      There are a couple of options here.

      One is that she simply forgot. Another is that she mentally downplayed your concerns the first time you said something, assuming that you were exaggerating for effect. Perhaps she herself didn’t get the corrections earlier, but felt she didn’t have standing to push back at the people she got them from.

      But perhaps—and you’d have to ask yourself if she has seemed like this kind of person—perhaps she’s an infohoarder, someone who sits on information no matter how vital or innocuous until the last possible second as a power play. We have one of those in my office right now and she’s put a stranglehold on our website and marketing, simply because she can. (And also she’s not that bright, so when she doesn’t understand something she just sits on it, or else changes it until she does understand it, at which point it’s useless, because she’s dim. Frustrating.)

      1. valentine*

        But the obvious, logical thing would have been for her to put me in touch with the people who did have control, or to pass my concerns on to them.
        You didn’t ask her for this, giving you last-minute changes had no negative effect on her, and your manager took her side, so she had no reason to stop. It might have helped if you specified, “You’re costing me an extra hour of work,” but possibly not. Her framing may have been that she was just doing her job and, with “unnecessary work,” you were simply griping about having to do yours.

        If it wasn’t possible to reject the changes, the onus was on you to jump all over preventing them. When other people involved don’t care about your burden, find an angle they care enough about to act on in a way that benefits you.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Hard to say. Sansa may have been the type who just won’t speak up about anything out of fear of being fired. So, so many people in the workplace are taught (or conditioned) to go along to get along.
      Or could’ve been she didn’t know.

    3. Asta*

      The way you handled it was… not ideal. It would have been better not to focus on ‘sides’ but to ask where the changes came from and suggest a cutoff point for any changes to be submitted. If you were as annoyed as you sound here, maybe she didn’t feel she could discuss it.

    4. Sam Foster*

      “the obvious, logical thing would have been” just because it appears that way to you doesn’t mean it appears that way to Sansa or anyone else. I’ve found that if I’m not explicit in my requests the outcome is going to be ambiguous at best.

    5. Colette*

      One thing I don’t see mentioned here is that these changes were presumably coming from the customer, and there’s little you can do (or expect Sansa to do) in that case. And ultimately, doing this inefficiently (an hour instead of 10 minutes) is annoying, but if the customer is willing to pay for it, that’s their choice,

      Now, you could have talked with your manager about how to handle it with the customer (what’s in the contract? What dates are communicated to them?) but you can’t unilaterally decide your schedule takes priority over theirs.

    6. CM*

      I think, ideally, when your manager told you Sansa had no control over it, that would have been the moment to find out who did.

      But that’s not the question. If she literally said nothing in response to you asking her to stop bring you last-minute changes, that’s kind of a weird thing to do, but I can speculate about some reasons. One would be that, if it truly was outside of her control and she assumed you knew that, she might have thought you were just venting and not that you seriously expected something to change (like, “I need to stop getting last minute changes!” could be read the same way as “I need it to stop raining!” in certain contexts).

      If I’m reading the situation right and Sansa used to deal with these requests herself before the digital stuff migrated over to you, she also might not be thrilled about carrying messages back and forth to you instead of doing the work herself. It might have been a case where she didn’t want to get roped into a long back and forth between you and whoever’s requesting the changes so she just didn’t say anything and hoped you’d drop it. If that’s what’s going on, it might make sense to re-evaluate how your roles are structured and whether it’s more efficient for you to talk to whoever’s requesting the changes directly.

    7. tamarack and fireweed*

      If Sansa had no control over this, so be it. But the obvious, logical thing would have been for her to put me in touch with the people who did have control, or to pass my concerns on to them.

      This is absolutely true in the literal sense, but in my experience people often have to be taught, or at least told that this is what they should be doing. (Or, in my mind, it’s an example of “having initiative” or “thinking ahead”. I’ve met very highly qualified people who find it very hard to think outside the steps and contexts they’re functioning in, and very junior inexperienced people who DO ask the right questions. So if I was mentoring Sansa, this would be a piece of advice for her.

      Also, from what you wrote, I’m not 100% sure Sansa was actually aware why this was inconvenient. You told her that last minute changes are inconvenient, but last minute changes are very often inconvenient even when they take the exact same time at the late stage as at the early stage, simply because late in the production cycle there’s less slack.

      So ideally a conversation could have gone like this.

      – Please don’t make these last-minute changes. When they come in that late I have to undo and redo all the wranglefrazz and thimblebling, and it takes an hour. If I get them two days earlier it’s literally a matter of 5 min. Is it possible to get everything in before deadline X?
      – I only got those changes myself like half an hour ago…
      – So who HAS control about the process? It’s not sustainable at my end to continue like this.
      – I get them from X or Y and I think the Z department does a last-minute copy editing review.

      [I have no idea how senior a paste-up artist is compared to a typesetter, so you may get a clear picture of the process responsiblities upstream of you or maybe just a few names, but you could take it from here.]

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Also, I know you stressed the word “unnecessary”, but you’re expecting a lot of work from that one word thinking that Sansa will conclude “ok, if the changes came earlier, the total work load would decrease”. Most likely Sansa will only hear it as a pretty serious complaint, within the bounds of workplace niceties. Causing unnecessary work is bad, but if she’s actually doing the work how she has been told to, if may feel like an unjust attack on her.

        Explicit is nearly always better than implicit in conflict situations.

      2. Heffalump*

        Thanks to all for the insightful responses. At the risk of telling you more than you want to know about graphic production, here’s some more context.

        The advertising flyers were for a manufacturer of 18-wheelers. Not all dealers took part in the flyer program, but 50 to 75 did, and there would be a different flyer for each dealer. All flyers had the same basic layout, with a place to plug in the dealer’s name and address. We would create a generic “master” file, as we called it, make a dealer-specific copy of the master for each dealer, and plug the dealer-specific content into it.

        Each flyer had a bunch of rectangular spaces (which we called “ad squares”), each with information on a particular item that was on sale. The layout in the space varied, but there would be a headline (“Oil filter for GM diesels”), some body copy describing the item, the price in big bold type, and a picture of the item. Dealers also had the option of customizing their individual flyer. For example, the dealer in Council Bluffs might want to offer a deal on red reflective warning triangles rather than the GM oil filter.

        When the design was coming together during the 6-week period, there would be a certain amount of change, as you’d expect. For example, an ad square might have the big bold price in the lower left corner, and then someone would decide to add some more descriptive copy, move the price to the lower right corner to make room for the new copy, and move the graphic (on the right) up a bit and shrink it to make room for the price. All in a day’s work, and I didn’t mind, except:

        Sansa’s requests were coming after I had copied the master file to the dealer-specific files. Earlier, I could have made the change once, in the master file. Now I had to do it as many times as there were dealer-specific files. And this was just one ad square. Usually, she would ask for changes to multiple ad squares. Also, moving a graphic a fraction of an inch was as labor-intensive as moving it clear across the ad square. Shrinking a graphic 5% was as labor-intensive as shrinking it 50%. The software wasn’t very user-friendly when it came to this kind of changes.

        One commenter suggested that maybe the changes were at the customer’s request. Some of them indeed were, but they were flagged as such. The changes that were frustrating me came about because someone in-house couldn’t make up their minds what they wanted and freeze the design until late in the game. As I said originally, they did start (usually) freezing the design earlier, once I’d voiced my concerns at the meeting. If Sansa or someone had told me that tweaking the design down to the wire was unavoidable, that would have been another matter. The extra work would have been frustrating, but I would have felt that I’d been heard and she wasn’t just being uncooperative.

        I’d also add that I’d been with the company a couple of years when we went digital, and I hadn’t had a track record of making unreasonable demands. I also felt that since Sansa didn’t know the first thing about the DTP software, when I said she was generating unnecessary work, she should have given me credit for knowing what I was talking about. If her “Why is it inconvenient?”question had come the first time we had this conversation, I would have been glad to explain it in more detail, as I eventually did at the meeting. But she blew me off.

  222. MWH*

    Yesterday, I had a day-long in person for a job where I’m a finalist! I don’t think I’m a shoo-in, but I know I’m competitive. And, I felt very confident asking probing questions to screen whether the employer would be a good fit for me. Overall, I’m quite proud of the effort.

    Regardless of how this shakes out, this experience gave me a ton of professional confidence. And reading Alison and the comments throughout the process has been a big part of that.

    Thank you!

    2. Rainy*

      Congratulations! I’m so excited for you, and I hope it falls out the best way possible for you :)

  223. Tech Writer*

    For those who work in the federal government, how did you manage to get your resume through ATS and HR to get the actual in-person interview? I’ve been using the resume builder on USAJOBS, updating my resume to reflect what’s written on the job description, and all I’ve gotten is the generic email that says “Thank you for your application. It’s been received.”

    1. Another Manic Monday*

      How do you rate yourself on the self-assessment questions? If you don’t rate yourself very highly you will be knocked out in the first round.

  224. MikeeBeth*

    I’m finding it difficult to find full time librarian jobs that don’t involve management, which is a problem because I have very little experience in supervision. However, in my senior year of college I was a weekend supervisor and keyholder at my university library and I was responsible for ensuring that our task list for the evening was completed. I was the first student to hold a position like this. I’ve been leaving it off my resume because it was 5 years ago, I only supervised one or two other students at a time, and I don’t feel that it really adds to my candidacy, but am I not giving it enough credit? Should I leave it on my resume?

    1. LQ*

      5 years ago doesn’t seem like that long ago, I’d definitely be including something like that. And especially if it includes something that you want to aim for. The key words (at least for government in my area) are “work direction”. Even if you weren’t a manager but you can show you gave work direction you are adding something significant. And yes, even if it was just 1-2 people.

      1. MikeeBeth*

        Okay thanks. Another part of why I chose to leave it off is because it puts my resume over one page. I’m probably in the category of people who can go over a page by now, though. I’m only 25 (almost 26), but I’ve been working in libraries since I was 16 so I have loads of relevant experience. I’ve still been trying to stay under a page since only keeping relevant experience puts me at *just* over a page and it looks weird, but I might mess around with it a little more.

        1. Blue Eagle*

          You should probably stay at one page and cut something less relevant. This job should be no more than 3 lines to get your experience across.

          1. MikeeBeth*

            Well I pretty much worked just one job in high school and it’s my longest stay, so it’s not really taking up too much space

  225. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    So, it’s a little busier than I thought it would be at work today (and I’m the only one here), so I’ve only had time to type up The Tale of GUMPTION Girl, although if I get time I’ll post about the sports radio personality that I just leased to and moved in who apparently has a blood feud with my family in the comments if I get a chance. But GUMPTION Girl definitely needs to be recorded for posterity.

    So, my current Not on a Hellmouth job is a pretty swanky apartment community, and it is also right next to another, unrelated swanky property where GUMPTION Girl apparently lives. And I guess she applied for the job that I ultimately wound up getting over here? She called asking about her application and resume when I had just started this new job, and then asked a lot of uncomfortable questions about how long I had been here, name dropped the assistant manager a few times, and said the assistant manager had told her to apply (and implied they were tight friends), etc. And then, about one week later she was randomly sitting on the couch by my desk when I got back from a tour.

    Once my tour cleared out she told me that she was waiting for her friend the assistant manager, and then she started asking me all sorts of questions about where I had worked before, etc, etc, and, no lie, I honestly thought she was a spy sent by former Hellboss for a hot second. The uncomfortable grilling went on for about 20 minutes until my assistant manager walked in from her lunchbreak, at which point GUMPTION Girl jabberjawed about her professional experience, asked probing questions about our manager, about whether her resume had been received, asked some very crazy questions about whether we knew if either swanky property had been built on an unmarked graveyard, tried to catch my manager’s attention when he walked in but failed, and finally left. After sending her resume to our email twice.

    After she left I asked my assistant manager how she knew GUMPTION Girl, and AM just shrugged and said that she didn’t know her and had no memory of ever speaking to her before.

    So, that was the Friday before last. Cut to this past Thursday. It had been a very, very slammed day and the only people working were myself and my manager. It was right near close, and as I was walking in with my 8th tour of the day (that is a lot of touring, my friends) who should I spy standing next to this slightly, shall we say scruffy, dude that I have never seen before while talking animatedly with one of the new residents I had just moved in the day before? Yes, indeed, it was GUMPTION Girl, who had a latte from our fancy coffee machine in one hand and an elderly Pomeranian in the other. I smiled at her (because customer servie based environment) and she smiled and eyebeamed in on me with laser intensity, and I realized that she definitely was not leaving until she talked to someone who worked here, and that it was probably going to be a weird and uncomfortable talk. Fortunately, my manager came out before I wrapped things up with my tour.

    Guys, she latched onto him like he was a door bobbing in the ocean and she was Rose, fresh off of the Titanic. The whole way back I heard her going “Oh, I am so thrilled to finally be meeting you after all of the truly wonderfully things I have been hearing, everyone speaks so highly of you, truly it is an honor…” Apparently, my poor Manager had no idea what was going on and initially thought she was interested in an apartment… until she basically put him on the spot, closed his office door, and turned things into an impromptu forced job interview.
    He actually ushered her out right before I finished up with my tour, and we locked the office up. I can not tell you how relieved I was to have dodged the GUMPTION Girl bullet. He headed out, I stayed back another 15 minutes to finish last minute admin tasks, and then joyfully started to gather my stuff to go home because I was LE TIRED at that point, y’all.

    Unfortunately, our leasing office is basically a giant fishbowl. Essentially floor to ceiling windows 2/3rds of the way around, glass double doors at the main entrance and the rear exit… which is not *normally* a bad thing. It’s pretty, there’s lots of natural light…but unfortunately one of the wall of windows happens to face our lovely little courtyard… which is where GUMPTION Girl and her scruffy dude were loitering. And out of the corner of my eye, I saw her step through the flowerbeds, press her face up to the glass to peer through it, and see me. And then she immediately made a beeline for the double glass entrance doors and started pulling on them. I was hoping that the fact that they were locked and all of the lights were off would register, but I guess she did not find this noteworthy, because I could see her start to head towards the window wall where my desk is located.

    I was pretty sure that she didn’t know that I had noticed her, so I immediately (but casually) sprang up and went to the hallway, where she wouldn’t be able to see me unless she went back to her original window peering position. Unfortunately, I moved with such haste that I neglected to grab my lunch bag, purse, or keys, which were all visible on top of my desk. Also, while in the hallway, I saw her shadow creeping around and realized she was going back to her original window peering spot. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

    I immediately ducked into the filing closet, which both put me out of sight and is also where the monitor for all of the security cameras is set up. GUYS. She spent the next half hour circling the building, peering in the windows and doors, and repeatedly trying every door. At one point she was out of view of the cameras and I almost made a break for it, but then I remembered…. horror movie rules. I should probably pretend they were in effect and wait five minutes. And sure enough, right on cue she stepped back into frame and tried the doors again, while visibly peering towards my desk where my stuff was sitting.

    By the time I snuck out it was 6:35.We close at 5:30.

    After all of this, I became morbidly curious, and so I peeked at the resume she had emailed us. IT IS INSANE. SEVEN PAGES LONG AND INSANE. I can’t even describe how terrible it was. Poorly spelled, filled with bullet points that made no sense… and if you think of everything Alison ever said not to do, assume that she did it. The bulk of the seven pages (SEVEN PAGES!) touted her experience in marketing and public relations, and her hefty experience in “branding.” It also made it absolutely clear that she had little to no experience in property management and was probably heavily lying about things that she THOUGHT would be the kind of things we do in property management. She also said that she had “in depth experience with Encarta.” Now, ENTRATA would be something that you might use in property management. Encarta, however, was a multimedia encyclopedia that Microsoft had in, like, the 90s.

    So yeah. I can’t wait until GUMPTION Girl sky writes us a message (“WHEN IS MY START DATE I CAN’T WAIT TO SYNERGIZE WITH YOUR POSITIVE ENERGY”), shows up with gift baskets, or pops up in the backseat of my car like Satan’s own jack-in-the-box when I hop in and start driving to work. Who knows how she will display GUMPTION next!

    1. .*

      Removed. She is welcome to post here and her posts are well within the rules of the open thread. If you don’t care to read them, collapse the thread and skip past it, but you need to be kind to others here.
      – Alison

      1. Brooklyn Nine Nine is back!*

        Are you kidding me? The AAM commentariat enjoys reading the Hellmouth’s updates. If you are not interested, feel free to skip these posts.

          1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

            Do you just F3 my username every week to find me and complain? There were literally 1800+ comments before mine, which was posted towards the end of the afternoon the second day the thread was opened. I’m sorry you don’t like the way I relay information and think it sounds like “fanfic” (which… I do not think that word means what you think it means, my friend), but I’m not breaking any rules and even if NO ONE thought what I posted was interesting, it is still firmly within the rules and guidelines for both the thread and the site and it would still be okay for me to post here.

                1. Rainy*

                  Always easier to be amused after you know you don’t get attacked in the parking lot, for sure.

            2. A.Beth*

              I checked in precisely to see how this was going! (And being hopeful that Hellboss isn’t going to show up again.) So thank you for the update, from this internet stranger some 2000 miles away.

              1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

                Aw, thanks! This is probably first time I’ve experienced anyone going beyond unsolicited phone calls when they didn’t get an interview for a position, and I thought it was just too over-the-top to not share.

            3. 653-CXK*

              I’d rather read your posts (which are both hilarious and sobering) than the squirmy “eww, why do I have to read all of this?” drivel of the posters who got removed.

              As for Gumption Girl…eef. If there is anything that screams “do not hire and assign a trespassing order,” it’s this one. Something ain’t right with this child.

              1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

                Yeah. She’s probably a completely harmless kind of crazy, but I just did NOT have the energy for interacting with anyone by the end of that day… and I also did not expect for her to keep trying to get in/find me. Honestly, if I had known it was going to be THAT long I probably would have just braved the awkward conversation (hiding in the file closet was, in retrospect, more than a little ridiculous, camera monitor or no). But I also was parked right by the door and I have a kind of distinctive car and I just had this knee jerk I-do-not-want-this-person-to-know-which-car-is-mine feeling.

            4. tamarack and fireweed*

              Yea, eyeroll. Someone doesn’t know what it means to be a regular in a community. And frankly, if you weren’t, this is how you become one. Good to hear the job part of your new job is at least at least saner. If too exhausting.

              1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

                I have to say, even when I’m exhausted I’m still smiling at the end of the day. I don’t want to be here/in property management permanently, but the people I am working with are GREAT, and I feel like myself again for the first time in a year (ie, not cry-screaming my way into work every morning, actually feeling happy, etc.). Not being filled with horror and dread every day is terrific! Who knew?

            5. Fact & Fiction*

              Not gonna lie, I search through every Friday Open Thread looking for your name because I LOVE reading your updates, and would be first to jump in line if you needed a co-author for your Tales from a Hellmouth Escapee book! And there are plenty of threads that may not interest me, but I just skip past them without complaining. So please keep sharing your stories with those of us who love them!

      3. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Nope! Falls firmly within the guidelines of the Friday Open Thread criteria and is 100% appropriate for this space. Thank you for your concern, I appreciate you taking the time to check in with me and am so glad that I am able to soothe your fears. Have the best weekend! :)

      4. .*

        Alison, you said a few weeks ago that you wanted the Friday open thread to be focused on people asking for advice. If this has changed it would be helpful if you let people know.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I believe you’re referring to this comment, where I said I would be removing comments that are simply “happy Friday” or “bored at work” because I want the open thread to be for substantive discussion. Hellmouth’s comments are fine.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Aw, thank you! They are definitely much happier these days. Honestly, all of the feedback and advice from everyone has been SO HELPFUL! :)

    4. Dove*

      Omg. At what point does GUMPTION Girl manage to GUMPTION her way into a restraining order? Because spending over an hour trying to get into a building that’s *very clearly* locked and closed down for the night is. Um. Well, she’s not just f*cking creepy, she’s straight-up dating it.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Yeah. At the very least, there’s a bit of a, uh, boundary disconnect there. When I was heading out after locking up last night I drove past the entrance and saw her tugging on the door again. I’m going to tell my boss about it first thing tomorrow, maybe he’ll call her and tell her we’re not considering her for any open positions.

    5. Weegie*

      Great to hear about your new job – which sounds, in many ways, almost (but not quite) as bonkers as the last one – and glad you’re still posting!

      Has anyone at the new place actually told Gumption Stalker Girl that she’s not getting a job there? Maybe the next time she lays siege to you, you could suggest her talents might be best employed at Wikipedia – given her Encarta experience…

      Good luck with your other job prospect that you mentioned upthread! And in the meantime, add this anecdote to your forthcoming Tales from the Hellmouth and Other Stories of Leasing Madness memoir/thinly disguised autobiographical novel.

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Maybe pulling on the door when my manager is trying to leave? But oof. I’ve never encountered anything worse than someone calling a bunch when they weren’t asked to interview, so this is a new one for me.

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Heh. It definitely has its bonkers moments, but they’re largely more in line with “normal” property management bonkers-ness. It’s kind of nice to have decidedly less to post about, though!

        No one has told GUMPTION Girl that she isn’t getting a job yet, but since I saw her trying the front door again yesterday as I was driving home I think I will be suggesting that to my boss tomorrow morning. Because hooooooooooooo boooooooooy.

        Thank you for the good luck wishes! I am pretty stoked about the interview.

    7. Nana*

      Late to reading, but…call the (non-emergency) police line. “Someone is lurking and I can’t leave my office” is, at the least, a safety issue and at best might get her on the ‘never allow her on the property’ list.

  226. Em*

    Hi, I’m looking for an opinion about company awards. My spouse and I have received “Your Title of the Year” awards from various former employers. The kind that come with a plaque or statue. We no longer work for those companies. What are people’s thoughts on displaying the old employer’s awards at your desk at a new company?

    My coworkers already know about one award because I have shared my notes from the keynote of the conference trip that was part of the prize- the topic is very relevant at the new job. I’m wondering if having the plaque on display at my cube would come off weird since it’s not from the current company?

    2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      My last boss did this, and it didn’t go over particularly well. But it sounds like you’re pretty awesome, so maybe soon you’ll have awards from your current company to put up!

    3. CM*

      The meaning of the award was really context-dependent, so bringing it into a completely different context can look weird, HOWEVER, if the reason you’re doing it is because it’s a memento from a happy experience, like a photo, or a special coffee cup, or something similar, I think it’s fine to do it anyway. And I think it will look less weird if you also have photos and special coffee cups and other tchotkes on your desk that signal you’re the kind of person who holds onto stuff for sentimental reasons.

  227. Anon for this*

    I have heard this unofficially and can’t talk about it publicly yet, so posting here. I have just found out that the non-profit I used to run as a very overworked, underpaid ED is closing down soon. I got out because my mental health was almost broken and the board wouldn’t let me do any of the things I needed to do to keep the organisation healthy, and kept breaking their own commitments.

    After I handed in my six week notice I ended up taking the final two weeks off sick as I had to recover some semblance of sanity before starting my now job.

    I’m so angry that they would let it get to this point. I gave so many warnings and worked my butt off, and I know I gave the organisation at least a two year reprieve. The work they do is incredible and good people will shortly be losing their jobs.

    And yet I still feel so guilty, as though I could have done more, or shouldn’t have walked away when I did. My logical brain knows this isn’t true, but my emotions don’t seem to be listening.

    I don’t think I’m looking for advice so much as company through this process. Has anyone been in a similar situation?

    1. Rainy*

      Not entirely, but I did have a job where I was overworked, underpaid, and unappreciated. By the time I left (to go back to school and finish my degree), I had twelve separate facial tics and a stutter. I also took 2 weeks off before classes started to try and get my face to stop twitching (it worked). After I left, they couldn’t keep someone in my position for more than a few months (my replacement walked out in the middle of the day after six weeks, quitting via post-it stuck to the desk) until one of the…er, teapot painters…bought the business, made the difficult part-timer who’d made my life hell retire, and ran it herself without the prior manager (the old owner’s niece, who basically did nothing–not even show up). The company wasn’t in any danger of folding after I left or anything like that, but in a business where developing and maintaining personal relationships with clients is key, the disruption of the state of affairs after I left is a real issue.

      I didn’t feel guilty, just relieved. I’d reached the point where my insomnia was back with a vengeance because I felt so emotionally unsafe at work (I have hypervigilance-triggered insomnia, have all my life), and the facial tics and stutter were starting to really impact my comfort in interacting with other people. I worked there for 3.5 years and when I gave a generous notice (4 months) the manager screamed at me and called me names, and then calmed down and told me to hire and train my replacement. If you had reached anything *approaching* that point, you have absolutely no reason to feel guilty whatsoever.

      If the Board had wanted the organization to succeed, they would have acted like it.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks for this. Yes, I was certainly getting to that point! Panic attacks in the middle of the night and resting pulse rate of 75.

        Your last sentence says it all.. thank you.

  228. Regional Work Culture?*

    Thanks very much, this is all very helpful!

    Barbeque is wonderful, but I anticipate running into trouble with my preference for Memphis dry rub in NC…

    Ended up working all weekend, sorry to be slow getting back to you.

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