open thread – September 13-14, 2019

by Alison Green on September 13, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

    I’m honestly not sure if my inability to focus and general distractedness at work are just a symptom of how much I dislike this job (AND I DO!) or if they’re some kind of mental health issue. I did not used to be such a terrible procrastinator or have such a huge internal unwillingness to do things that seem boring/hard/both. It’s not even something the pomodoro technique is working forbecause I don’t just have an issue “starting things” – I also give up on them quickly when I encounter the first difficulty, or get distracted.

    I know the internet is always going to say “therapy! therapy can’t hurt! it’s alwas good to go to therapy!” but a) it’s difficult to get an appointment with someone, especially when your issue is motivation! and b) I feel like an idiot when I talk to someone and don’t really have any kind of urgent problem to deal with. I’ve gone through it before and ended up not going back because I felt like my vague mild issues were just not worth the time.

    1. ZSD*

      Have you thought about seeing a coach rather than a therapist? I think professional coaches work with people with similar problems to yours regularly.

        1. twig*

          any chance you can elaborate on how you went about finding and ADHD coach?

          I think I may be in need of one but don’t know how to go about finding a reputable coach (or how to pay for it)

          1. ADHDer*

            Check out the CHADD directory! https://chadd.org/professional-directory/
            They’ve also got a bunch of other useful ADHD resources over there.

            I’ve been working with a coach off an on for a couple of years now and it’s been super helpful. I stumbled onto a great coach by way of a friend’s recommendation (and this was before I learned I had ADHD – I was just at a super low point at work and needed a trained third party to work through things with). I’m sure there are other life coach resources out there that aren’t specifically for ADHD coaching but would still be useful.

        2. Jadelyn*

          Seconding twig’s request – how does one find an ADHD coach? I’d like to see about that as an option for myself as well.

      2. MissBliss*

        That’s exactly what I was going to say! If you’re feeling disengaged at work, that can definitely cause focus issues. A coach may be able to help you identify things that you could focus on in your job that would be engaging, and maybe also create a plan to get somewhere that you’d rather be. I’ve been to therapy for serious and “vague mild problems” and I felt the same way as the OP when I wasn’t talking to my therapist about the Big Stuff. But I have a friend who is a life coach and she has tested out some of her workshops on me. I’ve always found them invigorating, even if I’m a little skeptical on the concept of life coaching.

    2. Celeste*

      Honest question–how long has it been since you had a vacation? A real vacation, where you had time completely away from work?

      1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

        TBH I knew I was in trouble when I came back from a week at the beach and it wasn’t any better. (Now, I know a week isn’t truly long enough but in my industry that’s about what you can reasonably take, two weeks is not very common and would mean you’re not going home for Christmas).

        I guess I’m wondering if other people have experienced ADHD or depression that looked like this, and if therapy/meds fixed it or if there’s anything else that was helpful.

        1. Thandie*

          Hmm…yes to depression, yes to burnout looking like this–the motivation, follow-through, etc. But this is where a qualified professional can help you sort through the mix of things and what’s at the root of it. (as someone who didn’t reschedule my last therapy appointment…I get not having the time or energy).

          All this stuff is so honestly YMMV. Therapy and meds have both helped me in the past. But what’s right for you could be either, neither or both.

          I like the idea of work coaches others have suggested, if therapy feels too big for this. But I would assert that if there’s depression going on, just because you’re mid- to high-functioning or not experiencing great emotional distress doesn’t mean it’s not a big issue that’s not worthy of therapy. It’s clearly impacting your professional life to the degree you’d seek out advice on it.

          My depression isn’t the “can’t get out of bed” kind…doesn’t mean it’s not a big deal–it still needs to be treated and addressed.

          It’s a little bit like not going to the doctor for chronic pain.

        2. Shark Whisperer*

          I posted below, I think, but I think my comment got eaten. I have depression. When I wasn’t getting treatment one of my biggest symptoms was the inability to focus. Finding the right meds and the right therapist (who focus on cognitive behavioral therapy) made a whole world of difference. Also, really limiting my phone time also helped, especially at home. When I got home from work and wanted to relax my brain I would mindless go through various apps on my phone. I was definitely training my brain for instant gratification. I really try to limit my staring at my phone time to an hour and not before bed. How’s your focus when you aren’t at work?

          1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

            That’s a good point, I do a lot of mindless scrolling / background TV in the evenings at home too, but I’ve kind of been chalking that up to “need to unwind from job I don’t like.” Hmm.

        3. The Other Liz*

          Yes, I’ve sought out therapy and help for this very thing. Whether you have ADHD or not, the motivation is a deeper issue to deal with. And if you ALSO have ADHD, that means your brain is wired to focus on what it WANTS to, not what it necessarily NEEDS to. I have found therapy helpful but in a limited way because I, too, felt like my problems weren’t bad enough to burden my therapist with them – I dont’ know if I always truly leaned into it. One thing I can recommend: Thrive with ADD, and their “Pathfinder” course, is an online coaching/learning system run by a professional who herself has ADD. So she “gets” us. And the beginning lessons, which are on demand, get at motivation. There’s a great flowchart about assessing what’s paralyzing you from getting work done – is it “this is boring” simple procrastination, some sort of fear, burnout, or something else getting in the way? I have found the program helpful to “level up” how I manage ADD, but I also did a year of therapy first. I just went for a normal therapist who took my insurance and who understands ADD – not an ADD coach or specialist. She’d had enough clients with ADD to have good working knowledge.

          FWIW I also find that my burnout and motivation problems ebb and flow. Things come in seasons. It makes it no less frustrating in the moment, but it’s helpful to have noticed a pattern over the years – I know that it’s not a failure in me and it’s not because of one particular job. Eventually, you’re someplace long enough for the honeymoon phase to end, or for the initial interest in a new job to fade.

          The biggest thing is to work WITH yourself – not fight against your nature. And celebrate EVERY step you take toward improving the situation, even if it’s a half hearted online search for a therapist, or the fact that you asked this question on this forum!

        4. Anon for this one!*

          Yes. I’m in the middle of a similar situation. I have lost all motivation and have become really dull-witted and slow. I can make myself work when the tasks are strictly physical and routine – say, house cleaning – but have a hard time doing so when the tasks require thought, which my job does.

          It’s scary (what if I lose my job?), and it’s shredding my sense of self (am I no longer a conscientious and hard-working person?).

          I’ve sought medical help, and gotten a lot of “I’m not sure what’s wrong with you, you don’t exactly fit in any of our diagnostic boxes, but I believe you and your situation does sound bad” from doctors. We settled on treating this as if it were depression, and seeing if that helped. I can’t afford therapy, but am taking medication and doing self-guided CBT. The latter doesn’t feel like it’s doing much for me, but the SSRIs actually, and much to my surprise, seem to be helping. It may just be the placebo effect, but it’s a start, and I’ll take it.

          For what it’s worth: depression can really impair your executive functioning (motivation, ability to focus, working memory) in ways that mimic ADHD or, for people with ADHD, exacerbate existing symptoms.

          I hope that you find something that works for you.

          1. RedLineInTheSand*

            I’ve been feeling the same way. Although I hate that other people are feeling this way, it helps to see that I’m not alone. Yesterday, I worked from home, hardly got anything done because I was in tears to the point where I called my adult daughter and asked her to come over.

            I can’t find the motivation to do anything, let alone work, and I’m so afraid that I’m going to lose my job. We are already in bankruptcy and if I lose my job we won’t be able to send that payment, and it barely leaves enough for us to cover living expenses.

            This is such a bad time for me to lose focus and motivation.

            1. Anon for this one!*

              You are definitely not alone! Losing focus and motivation is the way some of us (many of us!) react to prolonged, intense stress and adversity. It’s a part of human nature. The personality traits and tendencies that make us vulnerable to this are probably the same personality traits and tendencies that make us thrive in other situations, and that will help us do well again when things get better.

              Not that that’s much of a consolation when things are at their worst. Losing our abilities when we need them most feels like a cruel joke. (You mean that the more discouraged and scared I get, the worse I will get at dealing with and warding off the things I’m scared and discouraged about? Thanks. That’s just great.)

              One thing that’s helps me is to remind myself not to feel guilty about my lack of focus and motivation. I am doing my best. All I can do is recognize the problem, and seek whatever help I can get. And remind myself that I deserve that help.

              I hope that you can get the help that y0u need and deserve, too – whether that’s medical care or having your daughter sit with you when you need her (or all of the above). You are doing your best in what sound like incredibly difficult circumstances. Bankruptcy is a huge source of stress, and one that usually only comes after you’ve already been through a lot more stress and adversity already. (My spouse was in bankruptcy when we met. I got to see that it takes a lot of patience, courage and fortitude, on top of the administrative skills necessary to navigate the system). You deserve respect and support!

              I’m sorry that I can’t give you any useful advice: only solidarity and well-wishes. There are a lot of us in this boat. I am rooting for you!

              1. Tinuviel*

                I felt that exact way when I was burned out and depressed due to my terrible job. Sometimes it’s a chicken or the egg question.

              2. RedLineInTheSand*

                I just want to let you know that you’ve really helped me a lot with your comment, thank you for taking the time to respond.

        5. BlueHengineer*

          I ran out of my depression meds for about a week and I could NOT focus at all. I was constantly distracted and uninterested, even about things I liked. Lack of focus can be a symptom of depression, and low motivation is definitely a symptom of depression. Therapy definitely helped with motivation, but I needed medication to have any real motivation and focus. I do not have experience with ADHD though.

        6. AnnaBananna*

          You mentioned that you don’t have the motivation to even find a therapist, which can be both depression and ADHD. As someone who has both, it means my life can very quickly look like hell when one or more things start to fall apart.

          Be honest with yourself: are you currently miserable that leaving your current role sounds appealing? If so, does the thought of starting somewhere else excite you, or does it just seem like a lot of work? If the latter, then I think you may have situational depression. BUT, you know how in school it was a lot easier to organize your sock drawer than it was to start a term paper? Do that, but with your life. Meaning, pick up a new hobby, reach out to an old friend, join a non profit board, etc. Clean up just one aspect of your life outside of work and see how that affects how you view your overall life, and thereby affecting your view on work. Definitely couldn’t hurt, and just might be the impetus you need to finally figure out whether you’re ready to move on or give your role another try.

        7. Jaydee*

          I have ADHD. I have also experienced that deep, pervasive lack of motivation. Having come out the other side, I can say ADHD doesn’t help the situation. But ADHD sure doesn’t cause it either. ADHD just makes it a little worse.

          Is there anything in your life that you are motivated to start and motivated to continue with even when it’s hard?

          If the answer is no, then depression may be part of the problem. Depression tends to squash motivation across the board. Things you used to like doing just seem too hard and not worth it.

          If the answer is yes, then consider what things you can still feel motivation for. If your motivation is higher for personal life things than for work things, that suggests burnout is the main culprit. Assess what it is about your job that’s burning you out. Can these things be fixed so that you can regain motivation at work? Or is it time to look for a different job?

          If the answer is yes, but your motivation is inconsistent across multiple areas of your life (work, home, hobbies, relationships, etc.) that may be the ADHD. ADHD tends to make it harder to initiate and sustain motivation for tasks that aren’t interesting or urgent or both. So, if you can sustain motivation for the interesting (to you) stuff no matter how hard it is but not the boring (to you) stuff even when it’s really easy, or if you can get the work done when there’s a looming deadline or an impatient boss or client but not when you’re told “oh, no rush, just get it to me when you have a chance” that’s probably ADHD.

          Also, iron deficiency can mimic or exacerbate all of this stuff. I was diagnosed with iron deficiency anemia a couple years ago and saw great improvement in my motivation, energy, ability to focus, and perseverance once I was taking supplements and my iron and hemoglobin levels started going up. A friend was struggling recently and thought it was their depression getting worse. They found out their iron levels were low and started feeling better once they were on supplements for a few weeks. So if you also feel more physically run-down and exhausted, it might be worth a quick blood test to check your iron levels.

          1. Madam Sexr*

            So glad you were able to catch your anemia!

            Iron, vitamins B, D, and K. Even thyroid and cortisol in my case. There so many symptoms here caused by deficiencies, instead of or as well as depression and ADHD. High stress levels interrupt so many body processes that exacerbate. May consider seeing a holistic doc for bloodwork.

    3. Nacho*

      It could be both. I’ve got ADD and I can tell you it’s a lot easier to focus if I don’t dislike something.

    4. Youth*

      I’m honestly not sure if my inability to focus and general distractedness at work are just a symptom of how much I dislike this job (AND I DO!) or if they’re some kind of mental health issue.

      Why not both?

    5. Muriel Heslop*

      My doctor gave me a referral for ADHD testing a year ago and I still haven’t gone! My son got diagnosed with it this summer so I am finally (sort of) getting around to it. But it seems like a hard and annoying process, boring and bureaucratic. I’m shoving it to the side just like I do with the boring parts of my job (so am I bored or ADHD?)

      I am a special ed teacher! I should know better! But seriously: go. Go and do it. And know that you are not alone!

      1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

        ahh, we sound like kindred spirits. It’s not that i don’t know it’s a good idea, it’s just that it sounds like a lot of work and probably money, and possibly all for nothing

        1. Polaris*

          I’m in this boat too. I really need to go for testing, but I’m not sure if it will result in anything actionable or if it will just confirm my suspicions. I already take one of the common ADHD drugs for my depression/anxiety, and it hasn’t had any noticeable effect in terms of ADHD symptoms.

          1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

            From my friends who know they have ADHD, it sounds like they are confident in their diagnosis because a) they were really encountering a lot of difficulties in daily life before and b) the medications made a huge difference to them. I guess I’m just concerned I’m kind of “on the margins” or that my issues may be equally depression / inertia / being in a rut and I don’t want to get sidetracked with the wrong part of it.

            1. Triumphant Fox*

              I will say that my depression manifested like this (only worse than what you describe – I had extreme lethargy). My psychologist said that it was situational and understandable and that yes I was disengaged from what I was doing, but that a medication may help. And it did. Tremendously. She gave me something that didn’t have a calming effect – because I was seriously apathetic – but that ended up really kickstarting things for me.

              Ultimately I left what I was doing and as soon as I was in a new environment, I realized “OMG this is what my brain used to feel like!” Her help didn’t solve my root cause, but it really helped me get through it and get myself to a better place.

            2. Sounds Like Me*

              I have both ADHD and depression. They go hand in hand for a lot of people. Medicating for both helps a ton (it doesn’t fix the I hate my job part, but the other it does). Testing was annoying but it helped me cope a ton.

          2. Miss Mouse*

            I know that I had to try a few different ADHD drugs (diagnosed as an adult) before I found one that worked for me. Just because one kind is not affecting your symptoms, please continue to speak with you doctor about it and be open to trying different meds. I did not have to do any testing for my diagnosis. I spoke with a primary care physician who treats a large number of adult ADHD sufferers who diagnosed me and then sent me to a psychiatrist for a second opinion. It helped me tremendously to know why I had hit a wall and couldn’t seem to pull myself together even thought I’m extremely intelligent and high-functioning. Since the diagnosis I have also learned skills to work with my ADHD. My pomodoro timer is ticking away as I write!

            1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

              Did it get … worse? Or had you always been experiencing symptoms? I’ve always been kind of scattered but I feel like this lack of motivation is more recent, like in the last few years. Or at least has gotten worse.

              1. Marissa*

                In hindsight, I always had ADHD symptoms, but they got more noticeable when I hit grad school and had to start working on larger, more self-directed and open-ended projects.

                Lack of motivation for me usually happens when I feel guilty or like I’m failing at the thing I need to work on. I don’t want to think about it, and working on it just reminds me.

          3. LJay*

            If it’s Wellbutrin, that does nothing for me for ADHD symptoms.

            It does help with my depression a bit. It didn’t make me find things interesting or want to do anything, but it made me capable of doing things that I need to do like going to the grocery store, which previously seemed like an insurmountable task due to lack of energy.

            I’ve actually found that when my ADHD is treated with the correct medication, a lot of my depression symptoms go away, too, to the point where I can go untreated. But my depression isn’t the super-sad type, just the “I don’t have interests or emotions or want to do anything other than sleep ever type”.

    6. Annon for this*

      I can commiserate completely with your post A/D/B. I am feeling exactly the same way and am as lost and hopeless as you! Vacation is a dream, and although they used to be very helpful there is absolutely no way to go on one in the foreseeable future. I try to get some moderate exercise in and fun time with the family, but ultimately I find myself scrolling the internet more than working. It’s seems like a which came first, the chicken or egg scenario.
      Sorry you feel this way – I hope you find some relief.

      1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

        Do you dislike your job? Or do you feel this way in spite of being engaged and committed to your work? I’m kind of assuming it’s because i don’t like my job, but I do worry it won’t go away even if I’m more excited about my work

        1. r.d.*

          I felt that way when I hated my job and I got a new job that I loved and it went away… for a couple of years, but now it’s back. The thing is, that I still, generally, like my job. It was very easy to keep motivated when everything was new, but it’s also clear to me that the problem is me. The easy fix would be to switch jobs every 2-3 years or maybe to get counseling, but I am not motivated to do either one.

          I don’t know if that helps or not. Definitely leaving the job I hated helped me. I had 2 solid years of really great performance and even now, I feel better than I did before I left. And even if I have problems, one of those problems isn’t hating my job.

          1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

            “switch jobs every 2-3 years” – lo, the ghost of christmas future … yeah either way the job needs to go, I just wonder if tackling some of this other stuff would help make the search less draining. I don’t like my current job for real reasons, but also all jobs kind of sound like a lot of work. I just want to get paid a fortune to stay home with my dogs. Sigh.

    7. GigglyPuff*

      I’ve been in your position, and still am a little.
      I had a lot going on at once: realizing my job/manager sucked and wasn’t going to change, being an adult all alone for the first time (different state than my family), realizing I needed a life/hobby outside of work, etc. It took me almost a year to realize my depression was back and almost another year and a half to stabilize it. I also have ADHD but had been off meds for a few years, but all these issues, especially hating my job, spiked it to levels I hadn’t had before.

      I started off going to my GP (I realize states might have different rules), and they were able to prescribe me some anti-depressants and ADHD meds. But after six months I realized I needed more than what they could provide, so I ended up visiting a mental health nurse at a large mental health practice. I finally found an anti-depressant that helped enough to feel normal again, but unfortunately none of the meds are working for my ADHD now. I’m pretty much relying on caffeine until I’m willing to keep taking Strattera through the 24 hour long headaches it causes.

      I’m sorry, the situation is awful. You want to do more, feel normal, but you just can’t make yourself. I’d suggest starting with a GP to see how they can help.

    8. Lime green Pacer*

      Are you getting enough sleep? Lack of sleep can really exacerbate ADHD, and bring on ADHD-like symptoms in “regular” people. The period when I was at my worst for disengagement, procrastination, and just not caring, was when I had chronic sleep deprivation due to my husband’s snoring. His CPAP (and addressing other issues that disturbed his sleep) really improved my life.

    9. Nat*

      It seems to me that even if there is something else at play, the job isn’t working for you. Why not start job searching and see if a change is invigorating or not? Are there reasons you need to stay at your current job? (I know it’s not always realistic to job search)

      1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

        Oh believe me, I’m job searching. But I’m resigned that it’s not an immediate fix, and will probably take longer than I hoped – it was like a year to get this job. I’m not able to go without insurance or salary in the meantime. It’s actually gotten harder to find jobs as I’ve moved up because I’m only interested in making the same or more salary, and I’m relatively well paid for what I do. Also if it’s depression or ADHD it’s not clear switching jobs would help my focus issues, although it would hopefully fix my dislike-my-job issues.

    10. HarperC*

      I can only add my own experience, but when I was depressed, I lost all interest in my job. And it wasn’t that I loved my job before, but when I was actually depressed on top of it, I couldn’t force myself to do the job. I hope I’m making sense. In fact, for a long time, I just assumed I was just bored, but when I started to realize that I also wasn’t enjoying things I used to, I started to think it wasn’t just that.

    11. Sarah Simpson*

      I have absolutely been there! For me, I had to decide whether to start job searching or whether I should start finding a way to make work more tolerable. In the end, I decided to do both. I interviewed for a few jobs that didn’t seem like they would be any better, so instead, I changed my focus to making work tolerable. For that period of time, I decided I would plan to get done exactly what HAD to be done by the time it was due. I didn’t worry about impressing anyone with my excellence or my speed. I looked for ways to make tasks more interesting or came up with interesting tasks or activities I could reward myself with if I spent 20 minutes doing this other thing. There were some tasks that I could only do for 5 minutes at a time before stopping for a while. I also remember thinking that, given the work environment I was in, I just needed to care less about work – just something I had to do to pay the bills and then I could go home and read a book. For me, it was a phase, and things got better eventually, and then, down the road, I did find jobs that were more challenging and had a better work environment. I think this happens to people all the time, so find a way to make it as minimally miserable as possible and see if things change down the road or start looking for something better.

      1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

        Yeah this is where I am with this job. I don’t hate-hate it, like nobody’s yelling at me and I’m paid pretty well, I just don’t really like it. I do worry that not being an Ask-A-Manager-Style-Rockstar is probably not great for my career longterm though, and is probably habit forming.

    12. OhGee*

      I was diagnosed with ADHD, depression, and generalized anxiety earlier this year (I’m in my late 30s). I was aware of these things for a very long time, and like you, I thought my ‘vague, mild issues’ weren’t worth treating, though I did go to therapy for a few months at a time twice in the last ten years. I started to take things seriously when I got a new job that I was excited about and knew I could handle, but found myself distracted, struggling with focus more than ever, and procrastinating as I always have. It took months, but I got a diagnosis via a medical group that does neuropsych evaluations (usually for ADHD and other issues in children), started therapy again, and finally chose to try medication for the first time in my life. I take an antidepressant that is sometimes helpful for the inattention that accompanies ADHD, as well. I’ve been on medication for about 4 months and in therapy for about 6, and have recently started a more challenging exercise regimen. This combination of things has helped a ton, though my ADHD symptoms are still not totally under control. I highly recommend: calling a therapist and talking to a health care provider (your primary care doctor, if you have one, or a provider focused on mental health) to explain what you think is going on with you. If you have a hard time motivating to do it, enlist a buddy to bug you about it. I get it: it took me about 4 months between realizing my seemingly insignificant problems were a pretty big deal to me and actually getting the guts to pick up the phone and make some calls. It’s so hard when you feel unmotivated. I don’t want to diagnose you, but for me, lack of motivation turned out to be a pretty obvious symptom of depression! Funny how depression can make some of us feel like our problems aren’t worthy of treatment. Lots of people have access to phone/video-based therapy now, which might make it more accessible for you.

      Now, all of this is separate from disliking your job — you should probably switch jobs, too! But I recommend doing your best to seek help for your potential mental health stuff first. Getting a handle on that will help you figure out what you really need. Good luck.

      1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

        Thank you, I think you’re probably right. Even if it ends up taking a year to tackle each thing at a time, it’s probably a worthwhile investment, sigh. Versus just slogging through what should be the most productive years of my career.

    13. 877*

      I don’t have attention issues, but I do have life-long, drug-resistant minor depression, and what you describe sounds pretty similar to me. No short-term solutions that I know of, other than thinking incrementally as much as possible–like, avoid big-picture, “why am I like this?” thoughts, except when dealing directly with medical or psychological professionals. Instead, look at the field of sucky things in front of you, and fix one. Then take a small break, then do another. No end goal, so far as that’s practical; just keep going.

      My long-term solution was to go into a field where I am maximally independent and self-directed; I am not necessarily more productive over all, but I minimize shame and resentment this way.

    14. Jellyfish*

      I can’t speak to the ADHD possibility, but being at a job that I HATED coupled with other life issues at the same time brought on some low level depression, and this is how it played it for me too. I just didn’t care, especially at work. I know I could do the various tasks & projects; I just didn’t want to bother. I felt lazy and stupid, but couldn’t get over the motivation hump.
      When the apathy spread into the rest of my life, I realized something had to change.

      With the therapy / coach thing, I feel you there too. It seems like I’m wasting their time if I go in for something that isn’t a terrible, horrible, obvious problem. However, a friend who is a therapist says he’d far rather people come in early and take the steps to stay healthy than wait until their life is falling apart. Preventative maintenance for the mind.

      No real advice, but you’re not alone. I hope you can get some clarity and make positive changes!

    15. Midwest writer*

      My husband was diagnosed with depression a few years ago and I was surprised to learn how different the symptoms can be in men and women. For him, inability to focus (on work or home things) and follow through were really big signs that we missed until his depression was much worse. Getting counseling appointments CAN be hard (he had a month-long wait, which was awful considering how terrible things were at that point), so I hear you on that point. He ended up talking with our nurse practitioner who does all of our general health stuff, who was able to diagnose him, make some general suggestions, put him on some medication (which he wasn’t thrilled about, but really did make a huge difference) and get him a referral to a counselor. So if you are curious enough to see your regular doc, that might be easier and you can get some insight without going all the way to a therapist?

    16. Shark Whisperer*

      My focus problem was definitely a depression problem. Also, like you, I was bad at sticking to going to therapy. Here’s what I’ve found really helped me:
      – Getting on the right medication. It’s a sucky process to go through, but when you find the right meds, it’s amazing
      – Getting a therapist that specialized in cognitive behavioral therapy and really focusing in on what behaviors I had that I wanted to change. Sometimes you have to go through a bunch of therapists you don’t like to find one that works for you. The best advice I was ever give was to tell your therapist that they aren’t working for you and ask them to refer you to someone else. My current therapist was referred to me by a previous therapist and he’s amazing!
      – Finding other people that deal with the same symptoms and talking to them about how they got through it. You can do this in whatever way you feel comfortable with. I am in some online mental health groups as well as going to a support group in person. NAMI is a great resource for finding free support groups (if you’re in the US)

    17. Bertha*

      I’m in the “why not both?” crowd. I was diagnosed with, and started taking stimulant medication for, ADHD two jobs (8 years) ago. The job I was in at the time, in retrospect, was great for my ADHD. I had a variety of activities and never went a whole stretch of just being super bored all day long; I would do backup for the mail room, with reception, and in two different departments for my main job. My last job, even with medication, just didn’t work for me. I often didn’t have enough to do, or I had meaningless projects that I knew could be finished whenever. In fact, the kiss of death for me was always “You don’t need to rush on this.” Okay, let me put it off until.. well, you tell me it IS a rush. I didn’t have enough to do, and when I did have something to do, I’d put it off because I wasn’t in the mindset to do it. And, usually it wasn’t a rush. I was somehow much quicker than everyone at everything, and instead of that making me a rockstar that was given more work, my boss determined that I was “too good” for a lot of work and slowly seemed to take away tasks that were below me! Even though I told her I had nothing to do! She seemed to “value” me but, didn’t listen to me at all. I told her I could take more on, and she gave me an employee instead.. who I then had to figure out how to split work with, when I didn’t even have enough myself.

      My current job is a much better match, we have busy periods where I’m very engaged, but the slow ones? Oh goodness, like, right now. I took medication this morning, but that doesn’t mean I finished the documentation related to my last (finished) project. I know that it doesn’t “really” matter or have a deadline, so my brain isn’t engaged. But like I said, it’s still a better match when compared to a job that never had tight deadlines (or if they did, I was so good at what I did that anything with a deadline would take me minutes, and I’d be bored all over again). I also didn’t feel like I “fit in” at my last job. I think the combination of having too much time to think (overthinking=bad) and “not fitting in” made me more depressed than I realized, until I finally found a new job that paid more than my prior one. That was a challenge as well! Even with medication, if you have ADHD, you still have to set up the rest of your life for success.

      1. LilacLily*

        oh god reading this made me almost cry, we’re two peas in a pod!!! I’m also bored at my current job, I want to rip my hair out every day. I can’t wait to find a fulfilling job.

        1. Bertha*

          People don’t understand how demoralizing it can be to be SO bored at work! “Oh, I get paid decently, and I don’t have enough work to do” sounds like an awesome situation to be in to many people, but for people like me who are prone to overthinking or, say, going on Facebook when they are bored and don’t have other ways to preoccupy their mind.. it can be VERY bad.

          1. PaperTowelBattle*

            There’s a great post by tech blogger rands in repose titled bored people quit. I think it should be required reading for managers.

          2. Shiny alolan raichu*

            I had a job about20 years ago where I had about an hour of work to do a day. I still haven’t entirely recovered from that. (granted I also worked for a narcissist, but still)

            1. LilacLily*

              at my current job I provide IT support, and there are four of us in two different floors. this week we received the data for last month: we help an average of 3 customers per analyst per day on the lower floor, and 7 customers per analyst per day on the top floor, with an average of 9 minutes for each customer, which is pretty accurate from my experience. sometimes we do spend 30-40 minutes with a client, but even so, that still means I work between one hour and three and a half hours a day in a eight hours workday (that is, if I’m working on the top floor; on the bottom floor that number drops down to 30 minutes to one and a half hours).

              my boss wants to talk about these numbers on Monday, and I’m gonna be honest with him and tell him we don’t need four analysts AT ALL. three people could do this no problem. two, even. let’s see what he says.

          3. smoke tree*

            It is really important to find your job fulfilling in some way, if possible. It doesn’t mean your job has to be petting kittens and testing chocolate, or the sole source of meaning in your life, but it really wears you down to feel like you’re just killing time for 40+ hours a week.

      2. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

        Wow, this does really sound like my problem. So you found this was more of an ADHD thing, then? And did you always have trouble with this kind of thing, like back in school etc?

    19. Anon for now*

      I don’t have a whole lot of time to comment at the moment (hopefully I can come back later), largely because I’m in a very similar boat and am currently feeling the sweet relief/terror of crunch time for a project I’ve been putting off, but can’t any more. I have anxiety first, but probably ADHD as well, and am definitely a little burned out and a lot sleep deprived (thanks to a baby). What I mean by all that is that you’re not alone, and it looks like you’ve gotten some really good advice here. I think a multi-pronged approach will be best, because it probably is a combination of all three. I didn’t believe the provider who diagnosed me with ADHD in my thirties, and I think don’t agree with how he wanted to treat it (for me, personally, treating the anxiety was more important), but just having that confirmation that I had a lot of ADHD-like symptoms, at least, has helped me reframe how I think about my attention and work issues. It hasn’t cured them by any means, but it does help me to cope a lot better. Good luck! I know how hard it is to seek help, especially if the first (or second) avenue isn’t successful, but there are lots of good options out there (be it a PCP, therapist, coach, or even just a book) and I’m sure there are some that can help!

      1. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

        Lord I wasn’t really considering anxiety as a potential suspect. Hmm. You’re certainly right that people have been super kind and helpful sharing their insights though <3

    20. Koala dreams*

      You can have several things going on at once. There is no life fairy that makes sure everyone is starting on at the same difficulty level and gradually get challenged, instead things come at random — including heaps at once and long stretches with nothing.

      I do wonder though if your lack of motivation and your belief that your issues are not worth dealing with are connected. Depression, for example, can be very sneaky that way, those fraudulent thoughts slip past your rational thinking and make you think that it’s useless to do anything to improve your situation, that life is hopeless and you might as well play 2048 or sleep all day long. (Of course, depression can show up in many ways, this is just one example.) In my experience with depression, I had to start taking medicine before I could get some help from therapy.

      1. Koala dreams*

        Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that you specifically have depression, it was just an example. I chose it because I have had some experience in my life with depression.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I believe there is a situational type of depression?

          OP, if I were in your shoes I would described myself as depressed meaning saddened to the point of not moving around (my use of the word for my own setting). It would be like having my shoe nailed to the floor and I have to keep going in circles, never improving, never changing.

          It’s a basic human need (on the same level as food and water) to grow/contribute. People who feel they are not growing or are not making a difference can feel absolutely gutted on the inside. This is why it’s so important to allow people to make contributions and grow themselves.

          Instead of making lists of things that you can’t quite get to, why not pick ONE thing that you will do? Finding that first thing is a BEAR! Maybe a good friend will help you pick something out, bonus if the good friend helps you do it. But you go and do it anyway. I needed extra rest when I did this, it was that tough. So when you complete that first thing, rest, then you go and find a second thing that you WILL do. Do the second thing, rest. Then pick the third thing. Going one at a time like this you will be able to clearly see how that thing is helping you or not.

          This does not have to be hard. You could decide to take a ten minute walk every day. You could decide to organize your desk. It can be anything. Get that first thing in place and then think about the second thing you will do.

          Years ago my friend broke up with his GF. He was beside himself. He did not do much and just hung out around the house. This is so NOT my friend. We chatted about this and that. He said, “And top it all off my stupid garage needs cleaning.” I said, “There you go. Go spend 3 hours cleaning the garage today. Call me when you got the three hours done.” The next day we did the same thing, but he cleaned the garage for four hours the next day. (The garage is a hot mess.) By the third day he was moving around more and sounding a tiny bit better.
          This makes little sense, what did cleaning the garage have to do with anything at all??? See, in that cleaning he was taking back his autonomy, his own power over how his life went. And this is what you can try. Pick something you will do and just go do it. Then rest after the task. Tell yourself that you are going to find ways to bring back your power over your own life.

    21. LilacLily*

      I’m also in your shoes. I have ADHD (sorta diagnosed), I recently discovered I might have light autism, I have a huge tendency towards depression, and I am suffering from major burnout. I took 26 days off work in June and I was totally fine while at home, and then everything sucked again as soon as I was back to work. it may sound dramatic but I’m sometimes sitting at my desk and picturing myself lying down on my office’s carpet floor like a plank. it is truly tempting somedays. one time I hid under my desk when no one was around and curled up like a ball, hoping I could maybe nap a little. anyWAY

      I think ADHD surely doesn’t help, but burnout and depression walk hand in hand, and those three together is a recipe for major apathy towards work, especially if work is boring and meaningless and your coworkers and bosses are not doing much to help your case. I’ve been thinking about quitting my job and taking two or three months to decompress, and then start working again. lord knows I need some time off work so I can get my life in order. basically what I’m trying to say is: is it ADHD? depression? burnout? and my answer is yes, it most likely is.

      also, don’t feel like your problem isn’t urgent – sure, it’s not life-threatening, but it’s not insignificant either. talking to someone who might be able to help you put your thoughts in an orderly manner might help more than you think, and if you wait to go to therapy only when the issue is so big it is threatening to swallow you whole… well, let’s just say I don’t think that’s a good idea. remember, just cause other people have way bigger problems that require therapy it doesn’t mean yours are meaningless. if you have the opportunity to get a few therapy sessions I think you should get them for sure.

      1. Yarrow*

        Ooh, dang, this sounds like me, except it’s turning out to be autism and anxiety and I can’t imagine taking that much time off. I’ve experienced the thing where you’re functioning much better away from work and it gets worse as soon as you go back though. It’s a strong sign. I too imagine myself just lying down wherever I am some days (a lot of days). I second the advice for talking to some sort of counselor to help you talk it through and sort out what you need. I’m doing this right now and it’s making be realize that just because something isn’t directly life-threatening doesn’t mean it’s not slowly draining your lifeforce and turning you into a dessicated corpse (like, spiritually). Everybody: take your concerns seriously. If you’re wondering if you’re depressed and burnt out, you probably are. Start working on how you’re going to handle it before it gets even harder to deal with.

    22. SynergySixSigma*

      Wow. I would have written this exact thing just a little over a year ago so let me tell you what was MY turning point. I felt strongly that I was in a position that was not playing up to my strengths and I was overwhelmed with financials, career, relationships (family/friends), and I just felt like I couldn’t catch a break… UNTIL, instead of focusing on everything I WISH I could do in my position, I focused on something that I COULD do that I would also enjoy. Granted, my position offers a great deal of flexibility and autonomy, but my mental frame work of trying to meet expectations that just did not feel like they aligned with the version of me I was trying or hoping to achieve (however passively) was a BIG factor in making me feel unmotivated. Ultimately, NO ONE ELSE is responsible for how happy you are — that is YOUR and yours only. So my action item for you: find something, really outside the box, that you can contribute that you think you would like to do or that you know you would like to do… that will help you with the other assignments that seem cumbersome. THEN, if that makes your day(s) more passable, try finding things you enjoy doing and if this career position does not offer that THEN begin your search for something more aligned with your interests. It is relatively easier to become and stay engaged with something that you actually find interesting… PLAY TO YOUR STRENGTHS AND INTERESTS. Also, make sure you are taking care of all your needs: emotional, mental, social, physical, spiritual, and educational, and all their related sub fields. Do one thing for each category daily.

      I tried therapy, it was mediocre because I knew what I needed was something/someone between a therapist/coach/cheerleader.

      Recommended readings: “The Now Habit” by Dr. Neil Fiore and “Girl, Wash your Face,” by Rachel Hollis (I don’t care if you’re a guy or girl, read it) or “Get out of Your Own Way,” by Dave Hollis (her husband).

      1. Justme, The OG*

        Rachel Hollis’s work is full of fatshaming awfulness (there’s more to the awfulness than the shaming of fat people IMO). I hate when I see it recommended.

    23. Just a Thought*

      Never feel like an idiot for seeking therapy! I see someone on a regular basis, whether I have a “real” problem or not.

      It sounds like you might be really unhappy at your job and it’t just demoralizing, which sounds normal.

      Have you by chance suffered any kind of trauma recently? I’ve read a few articles that suggest that trauma affects cognitive abilities short-term. I recently left a long-term, abusive situation and I’m all kinds of struggling with my ability to process complex information and motivate myself.

    24. Combinatorialist*

      I had similar stuff when trying to write my thesis. I thought that I was just stressed/didn’t like my PhD stuff. Both of those were true, but I also went to a doctor and was vitamin B12 deficient. A simple blood test and then OTC supplement made a world of difference even though I was still stressed and still didn’t like my PhD stuff. So I would maybe see a regular doctor and see if you have some sort of imbalance that is contributing.

    25. Anon Librarian*

      * Responding without reading the other comments first. *

      I know what you mean about therapy. Like everything else in life, it’s not for everyone. That’s OK.

      What are your goals? What are your options?

      I hear two separate issues here. 1) You don’t like your job, but it’s unclear how bad that issue is and what to do about it. 2) You’re wondering if you have depression or ADHD and if your procrastination and feelings about your job could be affected by that.

      It can be hard to separate situations from possible mental health issues. I think the only way to find out is to change your circumstances for the better and see if things improve.

      In order to get assessed for ADHD or depression, you obviously would need to see a mental health professional. Unfortunately, they’re not all unbiased. Like all doctors, they’re subject to a lot of pressure from pharmaceutical companies to prescribe certain drugs. It can be challenging to find someone who won’t be influenced by that, especially if you don’t want a therapy type of experience to begin with. So it sounds like it should be a last resort.

      What else could you do? Can you job hunt? Are there any ways to make your job more bearable? What about things that would help with your overall health, mood and ability to focus? Like dietary changes, exercise, getting more sleep, doing more things that you enjoy . . . I’m sure you can think of more. What about going back to school? Making a career change? How’s the social side of your life and how could it be improved? Are there any negative influences that you’d be better off without?

      It sounds like you need changes in your life. You need things to get better. So, every day, or every week, change something for the better. One small thing to improve your health mood and/or move you forward towards a better work experience.

      Just my two cents!

    26. Feeling Better*

      I’ll start by saying I don’t know which it can be for you, but from personal experience I can tell you that about 15 years ago I had a medical incident that started out as a situation depression that turned chemical. I didn’t even realize it, though in hindsight not being able to get out bed and living in a fog seems like a pretty dramatic symptom to me. A wonderful therapist realized what was going on. went on an anti-depressant for about 10 months and it got me out of the depression. Many primary docs will write the prescription. That’s what I did. In most parts of the country there are severe shortage of psychiatrists, even when you have insurance. It’s worth looking at this is a possibility. As for the possible ADHD, I would look book ad try to figure out if this is an intensification of an old problem or something new. I am fairly sure that ADHD doesn’t just start in adulthood.

    27. LilySparrow*

      ADHD is a chronic neurodevelopmental disorder, so if you have it, you would have traits that have been consistent since childhood (even if they weren’t causing you problems back then).

      So in addition to procrastination and leaving things unfinished, you might have also had noticeable, not age-typical traits like:

      messiness, losing things, absentmindedness, being so engrossed in things that you lose time or don’t notice when someone speaks to you, awkward blurting, problems with volume control, difficulty remembering dates or times for things, figitiness/restlessness, sleep issues like insomnia or sleepwalking, and so forth.

      If you don’t recognize a pattern of ADH traits in your childhood, it’s probably something else.

      Are you getting enough sleep? And is it good-quality sleep? Sleep deprivation produces ADHD symptoms in neurotypical people. It also produces symptoms (or increases risk & severity) of anxiety and depression.

      So does stress.

    28. ADHD, depression, or burnout?*

      Thank you all for these kind comments, you have all given me a lot to think about. I’m going to reread these carefully – and I really appreciate the time and care in your responses :D

    29. Catastrophe*

      Have you been checked for an underactive thryoid? The symptoms that you mention can be indicative of low TSH levels. Even a borderline high could trigger the symptoms you mention. This may not be your problem, but if it is, the solution is relatively simple.

    30. Less than Anxious*

      I want to reach out because I have experienced the same. The first time it happened, I was in my first job in which I was reasonably successful. My boss gave me an important document and I sat on it, looking at it everyday, thinking “Nope. Don’t want to do that. Going to do something else.” I knew something was wrong with my unwillingness to do it.
      Not having any anxiety can be as bad as having too much anxiety. I know you don’t want to try therapy but a good therapist can help with meds, strategies (like the ones the commenters suggest) and maybe help reveal the root cause of this.

      Big love to you. You deserve better than feeling this way.

    31. StaceyIzMe*

      The point of talking with either a coach, therapist or group meeting around a particular topic (like procrastination, or improving work habits or whatever) isn’t that mild issues come up and that’s it. It’s that issues come up and you’re having an inner dialogue whereby you process stuff that’s getting in the way. Most of the time, you may have a general idea (or even NO idea) of what’s in need of processing. That’s okay. It does take time and engagement. If there’s a common denominator to avoiding therapy and avoiding difficult tasks, it’s a disinclination to engage. That can speak to dissatisfaction, fear of missing out on present pleasure for the prospect of future (and uncertain) reward, and residual baggage from childhood or even other issues in adulthood. DO get going on some personal work, whatever that means for you. There’s every flavor of it out there and it IS, generally speaking, helpful.

  2. Teapot Compliance*

    How have you guys figured out what your role is in different industries? I’m in manufacturing now, but would love to translate it to different industries that don’t have the same job title.

    Looking for Project Engineer kind of equivalent. Thank you!!

    1. Teapot Compliance*

      To clarify, I’ve had a difficult time finding parity in responsibility level and or pay, so I’m not sure if I’m targeting industries that pay lower or if there are better industry organization resources that I haven’t found yet.

      1. AH*

        I switched industries 3 times by searching job postings for my specific credentials, not the job title. My field has many job titles, so it was a natural way to find more opportunities. Another option is to browse through job postings at companies that are in the industries you are targeting to gain a better understanding of org structures and common job titles.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Absolutely this!

          I also recommend always searching duties along with titles because even in the same industry, titles are often skewed or just downright wrong.

          1. Exhausted Trope*

            So, so, SO true! I’ve seen job postings for say, “Llama Bathers” when the listed duties are much more specialized, like “give llamas pedicures, facials, and highlights.”

            1. Kiwiii*

              Yes this! I just left a company where Program Associate was sometimes basically an admin with some report monitoring duties, sometimes was more or less a receptionist and support staff role, and sometimes doing heavy suggestions and editing on policy and doing almost no admin work and there was no reasonable way to guess which it would be unless you looked at the description and qualifications (and they all got paid the same/not very much). At NewCompany, Program Associates are heavy travel roles who regularly meet with clients and do presentations. Their pay grade starts at about double OldCompany’s PAs did.

            2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Yesssssssssss.

              I always am reminded how some “office managers” are actually literally receptionists [front desk coverage, phones and routing calls, mailings and maybe some housekeeping tasks in there]. Whereas my background out of the gate told me that OM’s actually manage the entire office, hire/fire the admins required and are on par with the other department managers.

              That can often be weeded out by salary listed as well in some aspects. Since it does usually skew if it’s a higher salary than what your entry level or experience are looking into, it’s probably more than just washing llama’s butts!

        3. LibrarianforThis*

          I also searched for specific credentials (not job title) and also browsed postings in general at companies. This was incredibly helpful and how I found some jobs that I would not have ever found otherwise. I find it hard to talk in hypotheticals sometimes or make everything about teapots ;), but basically, I was a librarian in corporate STEM jobs and managed to interview at law firms, universities, and in healthcare. I will say that it was easier to switch fields within the corporate world, as opposed to moving outside of it – meaning, I was able to get interviews at law firms and banks and a healthcare company, but academia had no interest in me unless it was VERY specific to the corporate STEM job I’d been in.

          1. Teapot Compliance*

            Thank you! I was struggling how to find the other titles, but my brain didn’t put together that I don’t need the title itself, thank you!

    2. Nerfmobile*

      Jobs in my field will always have a few key words, no matter what the title or industry is. Levelling terms can be tricky, so I always look at all of the possible relevant jobs and it’s easy to rule out the ones that are too junior even if they have a “high-level” title.

  3. Conjunction Junction*

    When I was at my last job, it was a toxic place. There was a new woman in a different department. She was lovely and awesome at her job. The other women kept saying that they “wish she would leave” and were just plain nasty to her. I would talk with her and can’t for the life of me think of why they would hate her so much. I’m guessing they were threatened and she didn’t fit in with them- as in she wasn’t mean and petty like them.

    This was a place that struggled to find people though, so why would they be chasing people away? The woman was great at her job, so wouldn’t you *want* to keep her in the position?

    I just don’t understand places where it’s based on personal feelings rather than performance, how people are allowed to bully, and why they think they can afford to lose people or chase people out when they struggle to hire/retain people.

    How does this happen? Why is it allowed to happen?

    1. JimmyJab*

      It’s wild how some entities allow certain behavior, but people are weird and not always professional. We have total problem people that pretty much everyone agrees are a detriment to any team they are on, yet they continue to have a job!

    2. LKW*

      Some people never mature past high school. So you have a combination of people whose own insecurities drive their need to put people down or make their lives difficult. Mostly to prove to themselves that they have a modicum of power they can wield. And you have management who either turn a blind eye or are too scared to combat it or simply don’t care.

      Strong leadership is needed in these cases along with clear and consistent expectations of behavior.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      Sounds like a combination of hiring good people into an entrenched bad culture and not rooting out bad apples because it’s difficult. I would be interested to know if the lovely person you mentioned is still there, or if she got the hell out ASAP.

    4. fposte*

      Because people are people, I guess. Attrition and retention are really more management concerns, so it’s easy for people who don’t have to do the work of hiring not to worry about the labor of that. What seems more significant here is that the management was out of touch with the environment that caused the problems. Your co-workers may have been mean, but the buck stops with the manager.

    5. JokeyJules*

      I worked at a place like this!
      Everything was very “status quo” and there was definitely a social/political hierarchy among coworkers and departments. If you’ve got enough people buying into it, especially if the people buying into it are in management, it won’t change. This facility was running on the bare minimum profit margin and wasn’t going to last another 20 years, but by then all of those people would have retired so it meant nothing to them.

      When we got a new administrator who started asking real questions, wondering why our daily morning meeting lasted for 2 hours, and started keeping people accountable for their job tasks, it was absolute mayhem.

      People buy into the status quo that they think serves them. Sometimes others will come in and shake it up, sometimes those others get cast out.

    6. Fortitude Jones*

      It happens because people are human and they often give in to their petty sides when they shouldn’t. It’s allowed to happen because some managers either don’t see it happening due to being busy with other administrative tasks, management is apart of the dysfunction, and/or the people doing this are stealth assholes who make sure not to do or say anything around management that will get them fired.

      There’s really nothing you can do about this other than what you’ve been doing. Keep being nice to your colleague and try to shut down any griping about her from others when you hear it. Stay away from the gripers as well because trust and believe, you’ll become their next target.

    7. Alternative Person*

      Been there, still there.

      In my experience its a kind of stalling out/gravy train riding, combined with management policies that don’t encourage better.

      As in people reach a point where for whatever reason they can’t progress in their career (lack of money for training/small org structure with few promotion chances/limited opportunities in locale and can’t move/etc.) and essentially bed down for the long term. Then, management (sometimes with a lack of knowledge about the staffs’ job and hiring/firing restrictions) doesn’t progress techniques/let’s bad feelings fester/standards slip/doesn’t change up the routine once in a while, and staff get nice and comfy in their little fiefdom of job security and pragmatic negativity.

      Eventually, someone new arrives, with a better attitude/new to the org ideas/more education/etc. and suddenly they can’t mosey on by anymore so they want to get rid of the new person because they’re making the long-timers look bad by association. Management (often hampered by poor policies) then doesn’t crack down on this/placates people/doesn’t back the new person up with their shiny ideas, and things don’t change much (sometimes the new person effects change by sheer force of will, but it is dependent on how much freedom they have).

      The new person, seeing the writing on the wall, figures out their preferred way of dealing with it and usually plots to get another job (whether this is short or long term depends very much on the person, the severity of the company/staffs’ problems, and how good the job market is).

        1. Bananatiel*

          So, full disclosure I eventually left– but I knew I was good at my job and it was impossible for me to really get blocked out of key projects because of my role. So I decided a couple of years into the job that I was sick of the drama and weird infighting/bullying– I started pushing back on it whenever I could in whatever small way made sense. “That’s a really unkind thing to say about someone”/”That sounds like speculation, I’d rather not hear it”/etc. I’m well aware that I was coming off as a goody-two-shoes and obviously the gossipers/bullies still did their thing– but I didn’t hear about it NEARLY as much. And because everyone knew I didn’t engage in the drama it actually allowed me to be closer to everyone and work better with everyone, save for a couple of particularly bad eggs that might have actually just been evil people, ha.

        2. Alternative Person*

          What the above person said is really useful, keep the negativity out of your orbit, lift people up where you can.

          For me, its my direct peers that caused the problem, so I basically started to and continue to leave them be as much as possible. It’s not ideal, but it means I’m not winding myself up about their attitudes, and the nature of my job means I don’t need to work with them 99% of the time.

          I focus on doing my job as well as possible, and not concerning myself too much about what they think/do. They’ve poisoned that well a bit by making me out to be the bitch who does things the wrong way to newer staff, but whatever, I’m not going to put energy into arguing about it, and frankly I do the job better and it shows.

          It kind of sucks, honestly having to be the bigger person all the time, but its how I win this one.

          Also, I try to make an effort to do nice things. Lunches out on weekends, doing fun hobby stuff, keeping on top of stuff go a fair way to keeping my mind of the BS at work. I’ve got a week-long holiday next month which I am very ready for.

          I’m on the path to leaving, but the local job market is such that next-level jobs are hard to come by so it’s a matter of waiting it out.

    8. Mbarr*

      I’m inclined to agree with the others – that it’s just stupid pettiness.

      BUT, maybe you’re having a completely different relationship with her than the other people. I ran into this at my old job – my manager and I got along great. We didn’t always agree, but I didn’t have problems with her otherwise. Other people on my team though? I know at least 4 people went to HR to complain about her, and she did eventually get demoted because of it. She was nasty to a lot of people… Just not me.

      Everyone would complain about her, then look to me to join in, and I’d have to say, “That’s not my experience with her at all.”

      1. Annonno Today*

        The running to HR with complaints… when it’s just personality dynamics… is rampant at the place I work.

        1. Windchime*

          At the place where I worked, all of us who went to HR to complain about our toxic manager were brushed off with the “personality dynamics” excuse. HR and our directors in IT were all convinced that our toxic manager was awesome, and that people just weren’t strong enough to deal with the chaos and rampant cruelty that she created. It wasn’t until a lawsuit became a real possibility that she was finally fired. The whole thing was weird because she had caused chaos in multiple departments before being dumped into ours, and apparently HR had even fought her promotion to manager in our department. And yet when we complained about her, we were patronized and blown off while she was supported.
          It’s very strange. I don’t know why it happens but I’ve experienced it first-hand.

        2. Mbarr*

          I don’t think it was personality conflicts. It was unreasonableness – but unreasonableness seemed to run around a lot in our department.

          A few people quit and gave 2 weeks notice, but the manager told them to just get out of the office, which meant that everything fell on the rest of us with no time to transition work. So that sucked.

    9. Annonno Today*

      Not exactly your situation, but this sort of thing is EVERYWHERE.
      I work in a place where some staff have been there 30-40 years and while the old boy network is dying, it’s still breathing. Staff is diverse/inclusive, but the downside is that management seem fearful of dealing with any problems caused by a minority/protected status employee, no matter how egregious the behavior.

      A person who bullied another on their team so bad that the bullied person resigned is still blithely enjoying their position.

      1. MsChaos*

        At my first school assignment, it was de rigeur to have lunch with other teachers and engage in bitch sessions about our principal and AP. After a couple weeks of this, I couldn’t take it any more, stood up and told them how immature they all sounded, that if they had real issues about their jobs, they needed to be adults and either bring things up to the admins or talk to their union reps and hope they weren’t laughed out of the room for it. I started eating lunch in my room with my students, and once my AP came in looking for me. He said, you aren’t eating lunch with the other teachers? Oh, right, if you want to bitch at me YOU’LL do it to my face. That was too funny. But I’ve never put up with cowardly bullying, and there are people at my school now who will talk behind others’ backs, but never to me and never about me. If you stand up for your values, most people will respect you, at least.

        1. Natalia*

          That’s a good thing to do! It’s so immature to talk about people behind their backs. Then again, some people are so petty and stupid and have nothing better to do or nothing worthwhile to talk about.

    10. Mama Bear*

      I think sometimes people are threatened by someone who does their job better than they do and rather than look at their own work, they want to tear the new person down so they don’t look lazy or bad. Women seem to be especially good at this catty crab syndrome behavior. I know companies where they lost half a team and were flat-out told it was a bad manager and the manager is still there. Above my pay grade to worry about their retention rate.

    11. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I think there’s a mentality in a lot of workplaces that your work skills are separate from social skills. So a boss who would reprimand someone for failing in their work skills might see a conflict between two employees and think, that’s a social thing and therefore it’s not mine to regulate.

      In reality, social interactions are part of almost every job, and the ability to maintain civil relationships with your coworkers should be held as an essential job duty.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        In reality, social interactions are part of almost every job, and the ability to maintain civil relationships with your coworkers should be held as an essential job duty.

        Yessss.
        And if higher-ups ignore it, they’re not being good managers. Plus, eventually they’re going to have to deal with higher turnover and fewer quality employees because the good ones will not stick around a workplace like that.

    12. Jules the 3rd*

      Because tribes are a powerful, possibly biologically-based, social organizing principal. Being mean is a way to mark someone as ‘out of tribe’, and external targets are a way of uniting your internal tribe, increasing tribe loyalty and cohesion.

      See: rising nationalism across most of the globe right now, being used to distract and solidify power. The US is not the only country struggling with itself. It’s the same dynamic, on a different scale.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Corruption explains this sometimes.

      I have seen groups identify with their martyrdom or victim-hood so much that if you, average outsider, interfere with that self-image then you will become THEIR victim.

      So how did they become martyrs? Could be toxic management and/or poorly run company struggling to make ends meet. Money is a weapon of sorts. “We have to keep Embezzeler-in-Chief on because we won’t make payroll without his connections.” Since the financial books are in a bad way, no one can get a handle on where the money is at. In my story here, once they got rid of Mr. Skimmer, they were able to meet payroll- ta da! Yeah he was taking that much money.

      So Skimmer had his VPs who covered for him. This put the VPs on edge and many of them made poor decisions that impacted the lower ranking people in a negative way. Hugely negative. In turn, middle managers were very jumpy and nervous. As this trickled down, the peons understood that it was every dog for themselves. And the cutthroat stuff rolled. All these people knew they were not being true to themselves, they had become less-than in someway. And that made everything WORSE.
      When the cutthroat stuff rolls like that people tend to hitch their wagons to the loudest voice. This would be the person who seems to be offering the most protection. If this is starting to sound like mob stuff, there is good reason. Let’s say a person speaks up and says “no, this is wrong”, they can be facing threats against their own lives. I have seen that one also. Sometimes the cesspool is deeper than one would think possible.

      For practical purposes: If you see a good worker being targeted and driven out, get yourself out. It could be that you are next, but maybe not. However, this is not a healthy environment and one person alone will not change it.

      So how does an employee become a threat to other people’s victim-hood? By doing a good job. By being happy, personable and helpful. This breaks the other employees’ theory that they are trapped. It makes them consider that they could have something better. This is dreadful because it’s work to get to a better place and “all places suck, anyway!”. And, “If we are not victims then who are we? That is going to be scary to find out!”
      These are people who relish failure, they love to watch people fall on their faces because it’s a confirmation that they were right, their work place sucks.

      If you need to protect yourself, be sure to agree with them when they say they are upset. “Oh, I can see that would be very upsetting.” Give a helping hand once in a while when they are actually stuck – this could be a misbehaving printer or their own personal car won’t start. When you can see the chips are down right now, then help out. Don’t talk about how much you accomplished today. Don’t talk about meeting goals in a timely manner. You can do these things, just don’t talk about it. Don’t talk about your review unless it is to complain. (In other words, say nothing.) Don’t talk about your education, your trips, or anything from home that sounds too much like success or too much like fun. Copy the things they talk about. Suppose they talk about their pets, then talk about yours or your family member’s pet. If they are talking about a tragedy in the news, you can chime in with, “Oh, I saw that. That was so sad…” Take clues from listening to them. And definitely, if you misstep somehow, apologize for it, but never expect them to apologize to you.

  4. The Swoonies*

    I’m an eLearning Developer and also a Graphic Artist. In addition to my day job, I also have a side business designing book covers. I would like to put this on my LinkedIn profile/resume, but I want to see what other people think about this first.

    My reservation is that I design exclusively for Historical Romance genre. I come from an arts background and I am drawn to the painterly quality of some of the nicer historical romance covers. Romance in general has a stigma attached to it, as I am sure many of you know. But my covers are great examples of my skills as a graphic artist. And they are downright beautiful. I also do graphic work for my regular job, but it’s obviously very different.

    Would it potentially damage my reputation in a corporate world to publicly link these two worlds together? Do I need to do this on a separate LinkedIn profile?

    I will note that the covers can be “steamy” but they are not erotica.

      1. The Swoonies*

        I hadn’t though of it that way. I am not planning to leave my job anytime soon. I just got a promotion, in fact. Which is very exciting. But I do want to grow my book cover business even though it’s separate from my day job.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          May I suggest you have a LinkedIn account for your covers separate from your corporate account then? I commented below before you posted, but if you’re trying to grow your side hustle, you should give it its own page so that your branding is on full display away from the company you work for. It will also keep your client recs for your cover design in one place instead of scattered among any recs/comments you’ve received for your e-Learning career.

          1. envirolady*

            Personally, I don’t recommend having two LinkedIn accounts. It gets very confusing and can throw people off. I think it might be good to create a web portfolio of this other work and link it to your LinkedIn profile (with a clear title that includes freelance to indicate that it’s different from your main work).

              1. LLG612*

                This is what I was going to suggest. I think a web portfolio linked to your regular LinkedIn would be perfect.

              2. LunaLena*

                Yes, this is what I was thinking. I’m a graphic designer myself, and when I interviewed I tailored my portfolio to the position. My portfolio is a binder, so I put different categories of designs on different pages, and just added or removed pages as needed. So for jobs that required creativity or drawing skills, I included more samples of illustrations and other artwork, but for jobs that were heavy in marketing, I put in pages of ad designs and campaigns I’d done.

                My online portfolio is all on one page, but it’s divided into four categories so the viewer can pick and choose what kind of work they want to see.

                My recommendation would be to keep at least one example of your cover art in your portfolio at all times, if only to show off your diverse skills. You never know who it’ll impress, plus it gives you a chance to talk about your side gig. In my experience, having a side gig like that is almost always a plus – it shows that you are proactive in improving your skills outside of your work, you have your own creative outlet (this is important because a lot of people worry that creative types will get bored with technical work like UI design), and that graphic design truly is a passion and not just a job for you. I usually also emphasized that my side gig is just that – a side gig that I do for my own fun and edification, and not something I want to rely on as my primary source of income, since a lot of people assume that the Big Dream for all creative types is to be a freelance artist (it is definitely not for me).

                Hope this helps!

                1. The Swoonies*

                  Very helpful. I do have a portfolio that is tailored to my elearning work and have so far kept everything separate. I like your idea of keeping one image in my portfolio just to pique interest. And then I can, of course, be strategic about which I use.

                  I love your take on having a side gig. I think a lot of people try to hide that they do things on the side from their jobs. In my last job I didn’t want them to know because I was worried they would think I wasn’t committed. But my current job is totally different. A couple people know about it but I’ve kept the specifics of the genre private because I don’t know what people will say. But I really appreciate this outlook on how it can be a positive thing.

                  I’ve been doing technical work in eLearning for a long time. My specialty is software, which is such the anthesis of romance novel covers. It can be very dry, but I’ve been lucky in that I have carved out a creative niche for myself and they let me get very out of the box with my training. I still need my cover design to break things up though. It’s satisfying in a way that technical work is not.

                2. LunaLena*

                  Haha, yeah, my Previous Previous Job was like that – lots of technical skill required, but very little creativity. As much as I love my current job, I do sometimes miss having lots of creative energy left when I get home. My for-fun creative output has definitely dropped since I left that job.

                  I think people won’t question your commitment to your job if you explain to them that your side gig is fun, but it isn’t your grand dream job in life. I usually tell people that, since I don’t have to rely on my art to pay my bills, it truly can be just for fun and I have the freedom to make what I want, not what the market demands (my side hustle is an Etsy shop, for context). Also, I can experiment all I want without stressing out if something I made doesn’t sell very well; I can just shrug, call it a failed experiment, and move on to the next thing. Selling stuff on Etsy wouldn’t be nearly as fun if I decided to do it full-time and had to worry about making it a success.

    3. Quill*

      Yeah, they’re book covers, they’re suitable for being seen in public with, you’re good.

      (Also the stigma for being hired to do work to produce a book cover is probably lower than the stigma of writing a romance novel.. and even that’s gone down.)

      1. The Swoonies*

        I have to admit, I’ve hit the job lottery. I love both my regular job and side job. They’re really fun!

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      It should be fine. When I had a LinkedIn account, I had the website that showcased my YA comedic mystery and horror novels linked, and I didn’t have a problem. People thought it was cool actually, and it helped to solidify my clout as a writer.

    6. Mockingjay*

      It’s funny; romance outsells every other genre combined, but you’re right about the stigma. Maybe because the audience skews to a certain demographic?

      That aside, do you have to mention the type of book? Emphasize the skills, not the genre. “Design soft and hard book covers for major publisher (indy publisher, etc.).” Describe the type of graphics you develop for these covers – photos, drawings, etc. Do you design title graphics and such? What publishing tools do you use? Industry standards or convention you follow?

      Treat it like any other work experience you have.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Maybe because the audience skews to a certain demographic?

        Yes. Anything that’s largely enjoyed and consumed by women is considered frivolous.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          Yup. Classics like Catcher in the Rye would be considered “Chick lit” if the protagonist had been a woman.

      2. The Swoonies*

        Oh, I know it outsells every other genre. It’s amazing really. But yeah, the stigma is ridiculous. People talk about it being trashy and overly sexual but it’s not like there aren’t classic novels with sex in it. Plus romantic movies are a thing and no one seems to have a problem with that.

        Anyway, as to your question… I don’t havve to mention the book type, no. But my business name is The Swoonies, which perhaps hints at the genre. And if I have to show work I would of course be showing what I create. But overall, I would do as you said and focus on my skills.

    7. Sloan Kittering*

      Hmm, are the covers the classic “lovers in a clinch” type? I’ve seen some lovely and artistic romance covers – a woman’s face, flowers, etc – that I wouldn’t be at all hesitant to share with one and all, but I think shirtless-fabio type would raise eyebrows depending on your main job.

      1. The Swoonies*

        They are definitely not the womans face and flowers covers. Honestly, those ones are hard to sell. Romance authors want eye catching covers. That said, they’re not really like fabio covers either.

        Here is a link to my site if you’re curious: https://theswooniesbookcovers.com/

          1. The Swoonies*

            Wow. Thank you so much for the compliment. I wish I could design one for you too. LOL. Sometimes I give them away just because I love making them so much.

        2. LunaLena*

          Oh wow, your work is beautiful! Love the “Smelling Salts Pack,” by the way, hahaha.

          I think if you had the cover of Claret or Midnight Afterglow without the text in your portfolio, they could easily be assumed to be custom portrait commissions. I think you could totally show off your work without tipping people off that they’re romance novel covers.

            1. The Swoonies*

              I appreciate that. There are a lot of cover artists who do really shoddy work and it’s unfortunate because they get up and coming authors to buy them at low prices and then they get cheap quality. I try to keep my prices in line with other artists to remain competitive but most importantly I don’t want authors swindled. And I don’t want a trashy romance cover reputation so I am glad they don’t come off that way.

          2. The Swoonies*

            That is a really great idea. I hadn’t thought of that. They could go as sci-fi / horror and no one would know.

            And thank you. I had such a good time coming up with the package titles haha.

        3. acmx*

          Your covers are really great! Your people are all realistic looking! (Seriously, I see so many covers with people on them and they are not proportioned correctly and they are from publishing houses.)

          1. The Swoonies*

            I know exactly what you’re talking about. Sometimes I am appalled at what an author has paid for. They get swindled by designers on fiver who steal samples and claim they can do the work when they can’t. Several of my covers were recently stolen by someone who was presenting them as his own work to get sales. It was such a hassle to deal with but the worst was that I was so upset that people were being swindled with my covers.

            1. acmx*

              The woman in blue on the main page is excellent.

              I, too, would be really upset that someone was using my creative work to swindle people!

        4. Princess Cimorene*

          This is so interesting! Do you also do photoshoots for the models/stock imagery or do you have somewhere that sells this type of specific stock imagery? I don’t think I ever gave much thought to the fact that there is this whole genre for design work. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to include as part of your overall professional presentation.

      2. The Swoonies*

        I replied to you but I think my comment is caught up in moderation because I put in a link. In any case, sorry if this ends up being a repeat comment.

        They’re not the type of covers that are just a woman’s face and flowers or just scenery. I’ve learned that those don’t sell, unless it’s a custom order, but I do a lot of pre-made covers. However, they’re not exactly fabio style either.

        My site that has my covers on it is theswooniesbookcovers dot com or just theswoonies dot com, if you’re curious to see them.

        1. Windchime*

          I’m not in any kind of artistic or marketing industry, so my comments won’t be helpful. But I took a look at your covers and I think they are very beautiful and tastefully done. I wouldn’t see anything wrong with including them in a professional portfolio.

          1. The Swoonies*

            Thank you so much! I don’t think it matters that you’re not in artistic or marketing industries. Not everyone who would view my work would be by any stretch. So I think your opinion is valuable and I appreciate you taking a look.

    8. Cartographical*

      You’d be surprised at how the stigma (such as it was) is lifting on romance. As someone who edits the genre, I can assure you that there’s always someone looking for a good cover designer. Romance novels are big business and cover art isn’t just used for covers anymore, it’s often incorporated into website designs and social media accounts. If you’re great to work with, that reputation and any associated testimonials can speak well for you in any field and romance conventions are great networking opportunities. Nothing says you need to stick to the genre, either, as you develop that line of work.

      I feel that professionalism is professionalism and delivering what’s needed on time is a good selling point for anyone. You’re contributing to media that makes people happy, you should be proud of that.

      1. The Swoonies*

        Thank you so much for this comment! It’s really reassuring. I do know the stigma is lifting but I wasn’t sure whether it could be damaging. I like the way you laid it out that professionalism is professionalism. I think I am easy to work with and I will do nearly anything to make my clients happy.

        I’ve been teaching myself new skills to go out of genre. I happen to be very good at historical romance in particular and I enjoy it the most.

        I really appreciate your perspective as someone who edits this genre.

    9. Oh No She Di'int*

      Keep these two completely separate. Brand confusion is a thing, and you are actually trying to cultivate 2 different brands simultaneously. This can absolutely be done, but not if you commingle the two. There is a reason that Nestlé keeps Purina Cat Chow very far away from Haagen-Dazs, even though the same company produces both.

      I would keep the LinkedIn solidly focused on your eLearning work. Then create a separate web portfolio for your romance novel work. You can then direct different potential clients differently depending on what they are looking for.

      And by the way, this has nothing to do with stigma. This has to do with good branding and not leaving your prospects scratching their heads and asking “Well, who is this person really?”

      1. The Swoonies*

        I see what you’re saying. I’m wondering though, will people really be scratching their heads about who I am when graphic design is already a big part of my regular work? It doesn’t seem like a huge stretch that I would have additional creative outlets.

        I do understand what you’re saying about branding. Can I brand myself as a creative that is multifaceted?

        1. Oh No She Di'int*

          It’s impossible to say without actually seeing your work. I depends on how much overlap there is between audiences that would naturally be looking for one and the other. Only you can make the fine distinctions.

          The problem with branding yourself as a “creative that is multifaceted” is that no one is out there looking for “multifaceted”. They are looking for a romance novel designer (or a kid’s book illustrator or an annual report designer or whatever). Is it possible that the same person can do all of those things? Obviously it is, but potential clients aren’t judging you on how well rounded you are as a human being; they are looking for some specific thing.

          Nestlé could choose to become just a “food company” and combine all their promotions for Purina Cat Chow, Cheerios, Haagen-Dazs, Hot Pockets, and Gerber baby food together. I mean after all, it’s all food right? And it shows they are multi-faceted. Yeah, but if you’re looking for ice cream, why would you want to be distracted by baby food?

          1. The Swoonies*

            Well, I didn’t mean to literally use the words “creative that is multifaceted”. I just was using that to convey an idea.

            My entire career in eLearning has been founded on me being multifaceted. I have a different set of skills than the usual elearning professional and I have used that to my advantage by making the case that having an art history background does indeed make me a better learning designer. It’s not that I disagree with you about branding but I think employer, particularly in eLearning are often looking for someone who is diverse and unique. More and more they want people who can do things that in any other industry would be an individual job unto itself.

            For example, I could easily tailory my resume to apply for technical writer, graphich design, eLearning, instructional design, sales operations, sales enablement, and many other types of positions that would normally stand on their own. But in eLearning they want people who can do it all. And I am sure that is true of many careers out there.

            I do see your point, I’m just not sure that my cover designs would be a distraction. I have to think on it.

            1. Oh No She Di'int*

              Exactly:

              But in eLearning they want people who can do it all. = “depends on how much overlap there is between audiences that would naturally be looking for one and the other.”

              So you’ve answered that question.

              The next question is what is the likelihood that someone is out there looking for a romance cover designer, but wants to make sure they also have eLearning design skills? My guess is that that’s not likely. But you would know better than I would.

              1. The Swoonies*

                I’m sure they wont. But my Linked in is not really for them it’s just to present myself and cover all my skills and experience. I send people who are looking for covers to my facebook group and website where I sell them. I don’t send them to LinkedIn.

          2. juliebulie*

            Unrelated – but Oh No etc., you just told me what I’ve been doing wrong with my resume. Thank you

            1. The Swoonies*

              Love when I have those moments on here. This site really helped me refine my resume and hone in on what I wanted to do career wise and it really changed everything for me.

        2. Nerfmobile*

          I am a hiring manager in a closely related area (UX design). I like to see candidates who have a breadth of design work in their portfolio – but I want them to show that they know how to draw distinctions between different kinds of work and the skills and perspectives needed. So, in my case I’d want a candidate to have a section in their portfolio for research, for strategy/visioning, for complex workflows, for simple UI designs…. whatever they have done that they can talk about meaningfully. If I was hiring a graphic designer for my team, I’d be happy to see one or more sections that cover your e-learning skills, PLUS a section for ad designs, a section for book covers, a section for mixed-media art projects…. Just because for right now I need a designer who can do an awesome job with knowing how to isolate UI elements for illustrating workflows, doesn’t mean that eventually I might not need other kinds of design work too. And knowing the breadth of your skills has value.

          1. The Swoonies*

            This is awesome advice and definitely something that I had to learn. My experience and skills used to be all over the place and I had to learn how to reframe it so I made all the proper connections to the job I wanted. It helped tremendously. This is great advice for any field. Showing the breadth of my skills is exactly what I want to do. Figuring out how to show the parallels will be key. Thank you.

    10. Meredith*

      I would add it in. Maybe it’s because I work in marketing, but I know lots of people who have their side businesses listed in their LinkedIn profiles. And LinkedIn won’t display anything – it’s a limitation of the platform – just a link to your business website and a description of your skills and accomplishments for that position.

      1. The Swoonies*

        Very true. It won’t show the actual work unless I link it. I was concerned that maybe my business name would give it away, but perhaps I am worrying for nothing.

    11. Fact & Fiction*

      Good for you on your side hustle! I write and publish mostly urban fantasy/paranormal and boy, do I know how people can stigmatize the romance genre. Well joke’s on them, because it’s extremely beloved by many and super lucrative. So they can poke fun all they want!

      I chose to write under a pen name because when I sold my first series to a big publisher, I wanted to maintain a separation between my “day job” at that time that was in a fairly conservative industry (law). When I quit working full-time for a few years to focus on writing, I did go ahead and add my three traditionally-published books to my LinkedIn account because I started freelance writing/editing on the side. When I did have to go back to a full-time “day job,” I made the transition to content writing so I felt it was worth it to leave those up as further illustrations of my writing skills and expertise even if it was in a different “genre” from online/content writing, so to speak. So I lean on the side of linking them if you feel comfortable–they are examples of your artistic skills.

      But ultimately only you can make the call on whether you think it will work for or against you in your specific industry/region.

      1. The Swoonies*

        I’m so in awe of published writiers. It’s an incredible accomplishment. I’ve wanted to write a novel for decades and I recently/finally started writing one. It’s purely for fun though. No idea if it’ll publish or if I’ll even try. But I’m 60K words in and I see how hard it is. Amazing that you did it on top of your other job. I know a lot of authors do that, but still I think it’s really cool.

  5. Foreign Octopus*

    I saw the news out of California this week about Assembly Bill 5 that moves to class gig workers (i.e. people who work for Lyft, Uber, and other platforms like them) as employees with all the same benefits. Personally, I think this is great as I’m a gig employee but based in Spain and am aware of how easy it is for these platforms to abuse the people working for them. I’d like to know what other people think about this bill (if it doesn’t touch on politics, obviously).

    Is there anyone out there affected by AB5?

    1. Nacho*

      Uber does a lot of things that don’t really translate into being an employee with full benefits and a minimum wage, and they’ll probably have to seriously change their business model to meet these new requirements. If drivers are earning money even when they’re not driving a customer, Uber will probably remove their ability to decline rides and might institute a limit on how many people can log in at once so they’re not paying everybody to just sit around waiting.

      1. Natalie*

        I’m not sure that’s accurate – this bill is based on a CA Supreme Court ruling that essentially finds that they are *already* employees by California’s rules. So they wouldn’t have to change much about how they operate, just how they pay people.

        Unless CA has different rules about on-call, they wouldn’t have to pay people to sit around waiting, either. The FLSA doesn’t consider you to be working if you’re “waiting to be engaged” and are otherwise free to go about your business.

        1. Le Sigh*

          Noting the part about the CA court ruling. I seem to recall that part of the issue the court took was that Uber was acting like an employer, correct? Creating work requirements/dictations that fell into the category of employees, but then trying to call them contractors to avoid the liabilities that come with that?

          1. Natalie*

            Essentially, yes. The Dynamex decision (which the bill more clearly codifies and adds a public right of action*) has a three prong test to be an employee: a) control of the work, b) centrality of the work to the firm’s main business, and c) worker actually customarily operates an independent trade in that type of work. It’s not an either/or situation, if the work situation doesn’t meet one of the prongs, it could potentially be a valid IC situation. That’s why Uber is trying to make their “technology platform” argument, if they can claim to not meet that criterion they don’t have to worry about the other two.

            * The public right of action is far more interesting, IMO, and getting very little attention. Currently most labor laws are only enforced by private right of action, aka a worker or group of workers deciding to pursue a complaint. It’s one reason labor violations are so easy to get away with. AB5 allows municipalities to pursue misclassification issues on their own.

            1. Oh No She Di'int*

              You seem very well informed Natalie!

              I’ve been confused by the Uber situation. I mean, I get that the drivers want the benefits of being an employee, and I hate to side with big, bad corporate business, but . . . my sister drove for Lyft and she most certainly did not behave like any sort of employee that I am familiar with. She started and stopped as she pleased. She absolutely took on “business” from other sources, and it’s not at all unusual for a rideshare driver to be driving for 2 rival companies at the same time (although my sister did not). That just doesn’t look like an employee to me. The fact that Uber dictates the parameters and guidelines of how to do the job seems no different to me than when clients issues a set of specs, which they expect any freelancer to follow.

              What am I missing?

              1. Natalie*

                Well, economies and labor markets change, and the law does have to change with them. So the fact that something is a little different from how employment has worked doesn’t *necessarily* mean anything about whether or not it should be classified as an employment relationship or an IC relationship.

                That said, as far as I understand the court’s definition of exercising control over the work is a lot more than just issuing specs. Gig workers have essentially no control over any aspect of their work except the hours – the algorithms that determine everything from what rides you’re offered to what you get paid to whether you get offered surge/bonus pay are a complete black box. The driver is basically playing a guessing game with a computer that is constantly tweaking the answer ever so slightly.

                Also, keep in mind that all three part of the test have to be met for CA to consider something an employment relationship. If you ignore the vagaries of scheduling, someone who’s labor is substantially controlled by the company AND is fundamental to the operation of the business AND who isn’t customarily in business for themselves sounds an awful lot like an employee.

                1. LJay*

                  And as it is you are penalized for declining rides as a driver.

                  If I could accept and decline rides as I desired so I could only accept profitable ones it would be one thing. However, if you decline too many rides they put you off-line for a certain amount of time, limiting your ability to make money.

                  A lot of the platforms also obfuscate a lot of data until after you accept the delivery, so you can’t decide “Oh I only want to take a short delivery because I am going to go home soon” or wait and take only a delivery that would pay $20 or more because you only want to do deliveries that feel worth your time. I would just get a ping that would show the restaurant it was for and have to accept or decline. Then only after I got to the restaurant and picked up the food would it show the delivery location.

                  And, while there are gig economy jobs that do better or worse with #1.

                  (InstaCart was the worst for me. I never even actually worked for them because when I went to the orientation they made it clear that you had to give them availability and they would schedule shifts for you (and pressured me to work the next day because the next day was a big sports weekend). You HAD to wear their uniform. [Most of the companies are smart enough to say that they recommend you wear their uniform because of blah blah blah that’s beneficial to you but it’s your choice]. You were not allowed to have another person assist you with the shopping or ride in your car with you. Etc. It made it clear that either they didn’t understand the restrictions on dictating things like that to dedicated contractors, or they just plain didn’t care and seemed like it was going to be a situation where I was clearly taken advantage of.)

                  However, I can’t think of any of the gig economy gigs that fit either of the second or third criteria. Uber and Lyft’s entire business model is getting people rides.

                  Uber Eat’s, DoorDash, PostMates, Favor, etc entire business model is delivering food to people. InstaCart’s entire business model is delivering groceries to people.

                  They could argue that they are just technology platforms, but then they wouldn’t be advertising to consumers that they can get rides or deliveries. They would be advertising exclusively to independent contractors that they could connect them with their customers. And they wouldn’t offer customer service to trouble shoot the orders, branded merchandise/uniforms for the drivers to wear or bags for them to carry, etc.

                  And the independent contractors are doing all of those main driver jobs (and usually the customer service portion as well).

                  And outside of certain cases (like Uber Black), the people were not in business as freelancers in the field before then, and are not really in the business as a freelancer now. If these apps didn’t exist, they wouldn’t be driving for pizza restaurants or for taxi companies. They were lured in by the promise of a wage for being an average person with a car, and outside of the time they’re logged into the app they’re acting like average people with a car. Most aren’t registered as a business with their states or localities. Most don’t have a bookkeeper that handles their finances and taxes for this, or even a copy of quickbooks they use themselves. They’ve never sent an invoice to anyone. They only do it because they were told by Uber or Lyft or DoorDash or whatever that it was easy money and all they had to do was have a car, download an app, and have a background check run, and a little extra cash made at times you have to make it is alluring for tons of people.

                  I’m a bit torn on the whole issue.

                  Because honestly, most of what I liked, and what I think most people liked, about driving for Uber or whoever was the parts that made it an independent contractor position. I didn’t have a boss. I could do it when I wanted to, where I wanted to. The barrier to entry was so low as to be basically nonexistent. If I wasn’t feeling it after an hour, I could stop. If I wanted extra money I could go longer.

                  I also know that Uber, etc, aren’t going to go, “Okay, now that you’ve won the lawsuit we will compensate you like employees and pay for your benefits like employees, but everything else will be the same. It’s not going to be a win for the drivers either way. If they win the lawsuit, either the apps will shut down completely because they can’t afford to compensate the drivers fairly and still be successful. Or they will find some other shitty loophole to maintain the status quo – limit the amount of time you can drive to stay under any requirements for benefits, pay absolute minimum wage for drivers and require you to be actively driving for a portion of the hour with no rejected jobs or bad feedback (they already do that in their promos when they promise $12 an hour for certain hours, etc), I dunno exactly what loopholes.

                  And I don’t know why I feel this way about Uber and Lyft, etc, because I would be appalled if it was a regular employer breaking labor laws and would be appalled if someone said this about the employees. But I kind of feel like, if you don’t like the way Uber or Lyft or whoever treat you, just don’t drive for them.

                  Honestly, most people who do it burn out fast. I did it a few months and stopped when I figured out that with how much I was paying for gas for my car, wear and tear on my vehicle, tax on my earnings, and for my own time and annoyance, I would be better off finding a side job working retail or in a restaurant. (But I didn’t want to consistently give up my time to do that or be bothered with the whole process of applying, being hired, etc. So instead I did nothing, which I realize is a privileged option to have.)

                  But maybe it’s because the gig economy as a whole is so new that I’m thinking like that. It feels like an added option to the jobs marketplace rather than something that has always existed and been has been relied on for someone’s ability to pay their bills.

                  And if everyone realized and stopped driving for them the companies would be forced to adapt and pay enough to make it actually worth your while, or they would not be able to and go away. Which really isn’t a different outcome to government intervention.

                  So I’m not sure why I feel torn about the government intervention in this case. Especially since I know these platforms are out to squeeze every last cent out of people they can which I abhor in a traditional employer.

          2. Former Church Lady in HR*

            I used to work for the “central office” of a large church denomination. Each separate church had a lot of autonomy but employment records were kept centrally for benefits, unemployment, and other purposes. It was not long after the FLSA was amended in the 2000s that a review of employment classifications was done. The result showed that a lot of the churches had misclassified their organists and choir directors as independent contractors, in most cases to save on social security taxes, etc. It became my job to contact the administration person at the various churches and explain how their organist had to be converted to employee status (pun not intended!) and the appropriate taxes paid going forward. A couple of places tried to push back but, using the ol’ three prong test, I countered that until things had changed so that the organist could play Christmas music on Easter at whatever time she chose AND brought in her own pipe organ, she was going to be classified as an employee. Worked like a charm!

            1. LJay*

              See, this is a weird one to me, because freelance musicians are very much a thing. And if I hire a freelance pianist to accompany me at a choral audition, he isn’t lugging in his own piano.

              And you can set parameters for independent contractors, and “play seasonally appropriate music” seems very much a legitimate parameter to me. If I hire a band to play my wedding reception I can tell them I want pop and dance music, not death metal, and that I don’t want the singer to sing any songs with vulgar language in them.

              I guess the real difference would be that the organists most likely are not playing the organ for other organizations during the week? And that it’s an ongoing commitment, not a one-off or sporadic thing? And/or that the organist can’t be like, “Sorry, it’s a busy seasons and I’m already booked for the next 8 Sundays so I can’t play your mass those weeks.” and expect that the church will go out and find another freelancer? And maybe that they were expected to be at rehearsals, etc, and receive and adapt to feedback rather than just show up on Sunday and deliver the requested music? And that things other than the instrument like music, music stands, etc, were supplied?

              Or are just pretty much all freelance musicians miscategorized in this way?

              Like I can see some cases where the musicians are clearly employees – I went to a piano bar the other day, and the musicians had to be up on the stage the entire time, they had to play pieces requested by the public and pieces from the bar’s selection, and it was a piano bar – the main selling point is that there is music there.

              But is there a specific tipping point that makes them freelance vs not or is music just another industry where contractor abuse is so rampant nobody blinks an eye at it anymore?

              I think I’m specifically curious as I went to school for music ed, and the need to bring a piano accompanist to auditions was treated as a normal, no big deal thing for the performance majors. And for that you would of course dictate what piece they were playing and what time they played. And of course they would not bring their own piano. (And you might even dictate how they dressed.) But these were always infrequent things, and the piano accompanist was in the business of being a piano accompanist and contracted himself out to many people to do this. So I’m curious whether my university was encouraging us to look at this from the wrong perspective.

              1. Former Church Lady in HR*

                Calling the church organist or choir director a “contractor” was, in 99% of the cases, a pretext for not having to pay FICA, unemployment, and benefits. (These positions usually exceeded 20 hours/week and pension plan eligibility was triggered at 20 hours.) In addition to being hired to play at specific hours on an ongoing regular basis, the music selected had to be related to the liturgies for the occasion and subject to the approval the pastor who can require certain selections to be played. The individuals were being treated as staff and there frequently has to be coordination with other members of the staff. They clearly functioned as employees, not independent contractors. Most of the affected workers were women; the churches often told me that “She doesn’t want benefits because her husband takes care of that.”!! I’m not sure but I think that the organization’s legal counsel first had concerns the law was being evaded and then that employee status would clarify control over the individual’s job performance, etc. that was absent form “1099 status”

        2. FindThisVeryInteresting*

          I think what Nacho is saying is that Uber will have to make changes to their business from a profitability and cost-saving perspective, not a legal one.

          For instance, since the new bill would likely make Uber (and others) pay a driver while they are not carrying drivers, it would make sense for them to limit the number of people who can be out on the road at any given time. It’s a capitalistic mandate rather than a governmental one.

    2. Alianora*

      I used to caption for Rev, classified as a freelancer, and I found out yesterday that they deactivated my account because I live in California and hadn’t captioned for about a month. (I don’t think they would have notified me if I hadn’t contacted Support.) They said it was in response to certain legislation, probably related to this.

      For online gig workers in California, I think this is more likely for the companies to cut us loose at the first chance than for them to classify us as employees. I’m lucky I haven’t relied on income from that job for a while (hence the lapse).

      1. Quill*

        I did Rev for a full day and hated it, can I ask if you left because you found a better side gig or just dumped it?

        1. Alianora*

          I actually liked the captioning work part of it (the company itself and how it treats its freelancers is another story) but yeah, I found a bunch of odd jobs and eventually started a full-time office job. Rev was more to fill in the gaps, it was nowhere near well-paying enough to make a living for long in the bay area. Ironic since they’re headquartered in San Francisco.

          1. Quill*

            The captioning would have been fine for me but the audio quality of EVERYTHING they had up? Yikes. I eventually figured I’d be making under $3 an hour.

            1. Alianora*

              Yep, it’s definitely a slog for a while till you get faster, train your ear, and make it to revver+. The only reason I bothered at first was because I was part-time at a minimum wage student job, so any extra income was better than nothing. Now that I make a better wage and have full-time employment, it wasn’t worth it unless I was bored or could find a really amazing file.

      2. Sophie before she was cool*

        Yep, this kind of flexible gig role is going to become nearly impossible to find in CA, if it isn’t already.

        I work (full-time employee with benefits, not a freelancer) for a similar company, and we haven’t hired freelancers in CA for a while — at least 1.5 years — because the labor laws have become increasingly strict on who can be classified as an independent contractor.

      3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        +1 sort of. I don’t think they’ll whole scale cut people loose, because they’ll need workers in order to run a business and California’s 39+ million people are a large market to lose, but they will likely alter their pay or commission structure (for instance, Uber and Lyft will help cover the cost of getting the car cleaned if a passenger barfs — things like that might go away — if a driver is an independent worker, that liability is all on them), or pricing structure that consumers pay (if gig workers are truly independent, they should be able to set their own prices at whatever time they choose and not be held to pricing formulas set by the company), or other work rules in order to keep people classified as independent.

        1. Alianora*

          Yeah, I agree that won’t happen with Uber and Lyft. I’m really referring to online-only gigs, where they can have a freelancer in Kansas do work for a customer in San Francisco.

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      I think it’s great (in theory) because the Uber model pushes off SO much of its overhead onto its workers. Making them employees and giving them some benefits would help offset (or eliminate) that. However, I think it’s just as likely to make it harder for people who live in California to work for these kinds of companies. I would (personally) have to be pretty desperate to work for any of the big gig companies, but I know people who don’t mind the work AND are in need of the money. I think it’s a great part time or short term fix for a budget shortage.

    4. ArtK*

      A number of my friends are in the music business, and this could drive most film and TV recording out of the state. There’s a lot of concern about it. While I’m in favor of reducing the gig economy, that’s the way Hollywood has operated for decades and cutting it off suddenly will be a disaster.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is why so many films and shows are shot in BC now, California has been pushing them out for years!

        2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          As someone who lives in California and has had 3 scripted TV shows, 1 reality TV show, 2 movies and about 5 commercials filmed within blocks of my workplace in the last 5 years (and many others over the last 30 years), I don’t think this is true. Location scouts look for places that fit with the script and have the ability to accommodate their filming, which takes a lot of space and time (1-3 city blocks closed to traffic, parking and pedestrians, large parking lots that they completely take over for their equipment and craft services, the ability to alter building facades or vegetation) so very large urban cities like downtown LA or San Francisco are off the list usually, but smaller cities can be altered to look like LA, and work just fine.

          1. Oh No She Di'int*

            I don’t get the impression that The Man is saying that there is little or now film production left in California. There’s obviously still a great deal there. But it is true that huge swathes of film production have indeed migrated out of the state in the past couple of decades. Georgia first surpassed California in film production in 2016, but then Canada outran them both last year. New York, London, Louisiana, and New Mexico are quickly rising too.

            1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

              But The Man did say California is pushing them out, and I don’t believe that to be true. There are incentives for filming in California, but if the script calls for 14th century France, or 2019 Chicago, they’re not going to find that easily here. So filming locations are chosen more by what scripts and producers are looking for and not by nebulous pushing them out. It’s the trope that California is so bad for businesses… and yet the economy grew by about 2.7% in 2018 surpassing the rest of the nation. For being so bad, we seem to be doing really well.

            2. Princess Cimorene*

              Michigan even had a good thing going for a short time with the film industry until a law wasn’t passed or changed. Then all the filming (and the jobs that came with it briefly) left. But if they had passed whatever law, there would have seen a huge boom in production happening in Michigan the way Georgia has seen it.

      2. Public Sector Manager*

        AB 5 excludes anyone working in the fine arts. So the film, TV, and music industries shouldn’t be impacted.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Like you, I think it would be great if gig drivers and such are classified as employees, but I can also see this going left should it pass. I used to work for a commercial insurer in a division that insured independent contractors in the trucking industry, and we constantly ended up in litigation in places like California, Chicago, and North Carolina that wanted to classify anyone driving for a company as an employee regardless of what the signed contractor contract said.

      The motor carriers who had workers’ comp with us for their in-house operations staff would be pissed when their contractors would sustain a bodily injury, get an attorney, and then file for workers’ comp because if they won (and they usually did in places like North Carolina), that meant that not only would that one injured driver have to be offered work comp insurance, but so would the hundreds of other drivers they contracted with. Then they’d also have to provide regular benefits to them as well (e.g., paid time off, holidays, etc. – basically, whatever benefits they gave their regular employees), which meant they’d have to buy a contingent liability policy to offset the litigation costs and any settlements against what was issued out under the work comp policy. What a lot of motor carriers started doing was pulling out of doing business in those states, so if they were headquartered in North Carolina for example, they’d move so they wouldn’t be subject to those rules.

      I think that could happen here. Those companies affected in California will do a cost benefit analysis, and if they think the potential for work comp claims will explode (which would then increase their rates and eat into their profit margins), they’ll just stop doing business there.

      1. Gumby*

        I’d be sad if Lyft/Uber stopped offering rides in CA, but if they perhaps wanted to move their offices out of state that would be not the worst thing ever for my commute… Or housing prices (though that would be a drop in the bucket in that respect)…

    6. QCI*

      I don’t know much about the bill itself, so I’ll just play devils advocate about the general idea. Making freelance jobs into employee jobs will probably just cause companies to remove as many employee’s as possible, charge more for their services, and do the bare minimum for their employee’s. I could see more people being hurt by this than benefiting and wouldn’t be surprised if the companies just left the state all together.

      1. LJay*

        Knowing how Uber and other similar companies operate, after having driven for them on the side for several months, I absolutely believe this is what will happen.

        Uber is not going to turn around and make life much better for the contractors turned employees. They’re just going to find shitty loopholes to cut corners somewhere else to make up for what they are now being legally obligated to provide.

        And they absolutely will leave the state. They already threaten to every time a city wants to do things like enact stricter background check requirements or do things to protect the existing transportation jobs in the city like require the drivers to get taxi medallions. And when cities call their bluff, they actually do leave. Austin TX is an example I remember off the top of my head. They also try to influence voting by telling people that if they vote “yes” on whatever proposition Uber and Lyft may “have to” leave. Honestly I don’t like their manipulative tactics in this area, even if I do like cheap rides. So I would rather them leave. Then other smaller companies pop up that either comply with the regulations in place, or that don’t and get run out as well when they get caught.

    7. CoffeeforLife*

      Except Uber is saying they aren’t a contracting transportation company…they are a digital platform and so don’t fall under the new law (made specifically for them!!). So, to quote @jamisonfoser
      Just last week as my wife and I were leaving a bar, I turned to her and asked “are you getting a technology platform for several different types of digital marketplaces or should I?”

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’ll be interesting to see them duke it out in court because that’s what it’s all leading up to.

        But the Supreme Court of US overturned Quill Vs North Dakota last year with Wayfair vs South Dakota. So God Speed, Uber.

        1. Natalie*

          Thise cases both involved states attempting to tax out of state companies, so they were interstate commerce issues and thus under SCOTUS jurisdiction. I doubt the same is true for this bill, states are allowed to pass stricter labor standards than the FLSA for employees inside their state.

    8. Kittymommy*

      I was curious about this bill myself (I just heard about it on NPR). While I’m not in California and have not read much about it, I would be interested to see what the workers who it would affect say. I know some people where in at who drive for some of these companues and they do so (it’s a side hustle) specifically because of the independent nature of the job.

  6. Jan Levinson*

    Is there any way I can make myself less sensitive to noise? I have a new coworker who has been placed in the cubicle next to me. I am in no way suggesting that she should stop sneezing because that would be ridiculous, but she has the most HORRIFIC sounding sneeze I have ever heard.

    The best way I can describe it is an (extremely loud) horse’s neigh mixed with a horror movie scream. She sneezes numerous times a day, probably 10-15 times, usually in bunches. I find myself wincing and plugging my ears after the first sneeze to minimize the noise.

    I have no idea why it bothers me so much. I’ve never been particularly sensitive to noises before, but there is something about her sneeze that makes my ears bleed.

    Again, I know this is a ridiculous question. I just don’t know how to make the noise less awful to my ears!

    Disclaimer: I’m not in a position that I can wear headphones at work.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Unfortunately not! We’re a small office and all of the cubicles are full. Also, our work has a bit of overlap, so it makes sense that we’re next to each other.

    2. MOAS*

      Oh lord I am so sorry that you’re going through this. But I LOL’d at horse’s neigh. I’m sure it sounds awful. I have a super loud obnoxious sneeze, and after a loud one I’m usually saying out loud “oh that hurt.” (it does.. a bit). Would it be worth it to offer them a claritin or something? Ofc they may not take it but wouldn’t hurt I guess. I did that with a coworker who would sneeze 10x in a row.

      I was on the bus going home this week and in that one hour, the passenger behind me sneezed literally every other minute. It was a small “cute” sneeze but the repetitive noise was irritating, even with my headphones on.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Lol, it’s honestly the only way I can describe it. The problem is that it doesn’t seem to be just allergy-related, or an illness. She’s been here almost two months now and it’s still a daily occurrence!

        I can totally see how that repetitive noise would be disruptive!

      2. ...*

        i wouldn’t offer a Claritin. I’m sure she is aware that allergy medicine exists. I take multiple kinds daily and still sneeze all the time. I’d give literally anything not to have severe allergies. The idea that it hadn’t even occurred to me to take a Claritin would be adding insult to injury.

    3. JimmyJab*

      My husband has a very loud dramatic sneeze and after six years I still wince every time. Sorry, I don’t know if there is any way to alleviate that reaction, but I sympathize.

      2. Hamburke*

        My husband does too. And 30 startling sneezes in a row. After 15 years together, I made him go to an allergist. Now it’s 1or2 sneezes only during high allergy days or when he’s sick.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      One of my in-laws has a sneeze like this. I’ve never found a way to describe it until your house neigh/horror movie scream, and I must admit I think I strained my abs trying not to cackle madly at it.

      In short, after about 15 years of it. There is not adjusting to it. There is literally just eye rolling and sighing heavily at it. If you can become aware of the signs that warn such a sneeze is coming, it helps. Like the deep breath, body tensing, hunch, etc. But essentially, you’re just SOL and I’m sorry for that.

    5. DrTheLiz*

      No help I can offer, but as a person with awful Dramatic Hiccups (I make this super distressed-sounding gaspy thing every time) I really can’t help it and would like to extend an apology on behalf of everyone with similarly Dramatic Body Noises.

      Can you get earmuffs and just put them on during the sneezing fits?

      1. Jan Levinson*

        To be fair to her, I too have dramatic hiccups (they seem to come from so deep within me and are physically painful). However, they certainly aren’t a frequent occurrence, or nearly as loud as her sneezes, lol.

        I could certainly try earmuffs and make an effort to quickly get them on when the sneezing begins. It’s just hard to anticipate when they’re coming on! They seem to happen both suddenly and frequently.

      2. New Job So Much Better*

        Have you tried swallowing a teaspoon of peanut butter? Finally found this to cure my long lasting hiccups. Swallowing it (no chewing first) seemed to calm those muscles (or whatever) right down.

      3. Mainely Professional*

        Science has apparently definitively determined that hiccups are caused by a temporary electrolyte imbalance– 60% of people with hiccups stop within minutes of taking a tablespoon of sugar and dissolving it in the mouth. The other 40% need a half teaspoon of salt (ugh) but as a fellow person with terrible hiccups it has always worked for me. Do the sugar first.

      4. DrTheLiz*

        They’re not upsetting (and I’ve always found conscious breathing sorts my hiccups out soon enough anyway) or even particularly frequent, just really loud/dramatic.

      5. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I’m happy to find another person with Dramatic Hiccups. Mine are extraordinarily loud and there’s nothing I can do to make them quieter. I feel so bad for everyone in the room with me until I can make them go away.

    6. RoseMai*

      Can you wear one earplug in the ear pointed in her direction? It will at least take the noise down a few decibels- while still allowing you to hear!

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I could certainly give it a try! They’re so loud though that I’m afraid my uncovered ear would still suffer. Lol.

        1. BetsCounts*

          Lol I also have a super loud sneeze and painful hiccups but I KNOW how annoying it is for my colleagues. Could you use a white noise machine Or something like Noisli to raise the ambient decibel level in the room, and then perhaps her loud sneezes won’t be QUITE so startling?

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      Find the humor if possible.
      My sister and I are adopted so we escaped the ultra-loud and obnoxious sneezes of our family (granted we have our own little funny sneezes – I sneeze how you would expect the 1950’s cartoon Snow White to sneeze and my sister will sneeze no less than 4 times in a row with each having the distinct “ah-choo” sound with the “choo” sound about 2 octaves higher than the “ah” but at a very low decibel). Our dad’s sneeze is very loud but low in the register so not really bothersome. Mom, however, seemed to have your coworker’s sneeze and due to lots and lots of allergies, sneezes often. My dad tells a story about nearly driving off the road when they just started dating the first time she sneezed. My husband also has once of those sneezes but luckily doesn’t sneeze often.
      My boss only sneezes every couple of weeks but the entire office will jump when it happens. No warning and extremely loud half-yell. My position in the cube farm gives my line of sight to his office as well as a very large, group that cannot wear headphones most of the time as they frequently get customer calls so when I happen to see him gearing up (the face) I look out at the group and can see the heads jerk around.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        “my sister will sneeze no less than 4 times in a row with each having the distinct “ah-choo” sound with the “choo” sound about 2 octaves higher than the “ah” but at a very low decibel)”

        Haha, this is such a great description. I know people that sneeze EXACTLY as you’re describing!

        Also, I’m lol’ing at your story about your dad almost driving off a road, and your warning to your coworkers about your boss’s sneezes. I think you’re right that I just need to try to find the humor!

    8. Anonymous for this*

      Next time she sneezes a bunch, ask her, with concern, if she thinks she might be allergic to something in the office. She may say, “no I do this 24/7,” or she may say, “hmm, maybe I am, what can be done?” either way, maybe she’ll take notice that her sneezing is disrupting and at the least, keep tissues at hand so when the attack comes on she can maybe muffle the sound even a teeny bit? Dull the sharpest edges of it?

      1. WellRed*

        Didnt mean to go anonymous for this. Anyhow, I have a boss who scream sneezes, sometimes with a foot slam, and a coworker who did the vocal ahhh-choooo! That second coworker I asked to please try and tone it down after sitting by her on a plane where she had zero problem sneezing quietly in that environment so no reason she can’t do it in the office.

        1. Jan Levinson*

          Thanks for the advice! I’ll definitely try asking her if she’s allergic to something. Me asking wouldn’t seem out of place due to the sneeze frequency!

          I too have a coworker who sneezes with the vocal ahhhh-chooo! It always sounds so forced, like she’s intentionally try to enunicate the whole “word”. Lol.

          1. Design Dork*

            Depending on where you are, it might be seasonal allergies. Which hopefully means they will disappear soon, but I think asking them in a concerned voice if they are OK is reasonable. Plus who knows you might get an answer and sometimes just knowing why something is happening makes it a touch more tolerable

          2. AnonnyNon*

            Good luck!

            I have a family member who dramatically vocalizes the “ah-CHOOOooooo!!!!” with the “choo” part at an ear-piercingly high octave that maxes out the decibels and eventually trails off. But only when they are aware someone is nearby. When they think they are alone, they sneeze like a civilized person who is trying not to blow people’s eardrums out. I hate it so much, but apparently they “can’t help it, sneezes, ya know?” Sure.

    9. Parenthetically*

      Oh no! I absolutely sympathize — OTT shrieking sneezes are particularly irritating to me, too — and also your description is AMAZING.

    10. Third or Nothing!*

      Sounds a lot like my husband’s sneeze. I have no advice, only sympathy. I can only deal with it because I love him so much.

    11. epi*

      I met one of my best friends through work and she used to do this during the two years we shared an office. I called them scream sneezes. It was like the “ah” in “ah-choo” was a literal screech.

      I was complaining (good naturedly, I do love her) to my now husband over gchat, and googling whether people can control this, one day after she sneezed and I nearly fell out of my chair. After she finished sneezing, she turned around and told me that Jane* complained about her sneezes, can you believe that, people can’t control how they sound when they sneeze! So I kept it to myself.

      More recently I worked in the same building as someone who had a chronic, incredibly loud cough. She also needed to use the restroom a lot, for a long time. So sometimes I’d be in there, believing I was alone because it was all quiet when I arrived, only to be nearly knocked off the bowl with shock when a huge hacking cough started bouncing off the tiles out of nowhere.

      I don’t think there is much you can do, especially in the latter situation, because people don’t always have much control over this and it’s really hard to tell from the outside. It gets less shocking and irritating with time, especially if you don’t indulge in getting irritated and blaming the person, and tell yourself each time that it is probably worse to be the one constantly stunt sneezing, than to have to hear it. However, I don’t think you need to worry too much about suppressing your natural startle reaction or anything. If you jump, you jump.

      *some friend of hers I knew to be kind of rude and a pain

      1. Jan Levinson*

        “one day after she sneezed and I nearly fell out of my chair. ”
        “I’d be in there, believing I was alone because it was all quiet when I arrived, only to be nearly knocked off the bowl with shock when a huge hacking cough started bouncing off the tiles out of nowhere.”

        Haha, I laughed so hard at both of these things. I can only imagine!

        I’m sure you are right. I think it’s just an, “it is what it is” situation.

    12. The Vent-a-lator*

      She may not know she has an allergy or what the allergy is. Every afternoon at work I would have a sneezing fit (series of sneezes, and I’m sorry, I cannot make them any quieter or less frequent.)

      Turns out, it wasn’t the HVAC system that I had been blaming, but rather a dairy allergy: up to two hours after eating dairy: I sneeze. Depending on the type of dairy product, I also would get an immediate runny nose, and migraines. This had been going on for YEARS before I figured it out.

      1. A Non E. Mouse*

        Depending on the type of dairy product, I also would get an immediate runny nose, and migraines. This had been going on for YEARS before I figured it out.

        Wait. WAIT.

        How did you figure this out, an elimination diet?

        Holy crap that could actually explain quite a few things…..

        1. The Vent-a-lator*

          I was sick, couldn’t keep anything down, and when I added the homemade garden salad with cheese back into my daily routine, the sneezing after lunch started back up. (Now when I sneeze at work, people ask me what I’ve had to eat. It’s not my only sneeze/runny nose trigger, but a definite correlation. Eat dairy > nose drip + sneezing.) Migraines were a bit trickier since it isn’t a one-to-one with the dairy, but 3 in a row in a short period of time after having cream rich food was a huge red flag. Fun times.

          1. A Non E. Mouse*

            Thanks for the reply!

            I’ve done elimination stuff for my migraines before, and have very few food triggers for those.

            BUT I have not done a food elimination for my sniffle/cough allergies and I’m now wondering if some of my “why am I suddenly hacking and sneezing at 2pm when I haven’t even gone outside?” is food.

            I’ll have to check. :) Thanks again!

            1. Zweisatz*

              I recommend looking into histamine for this one. Runny nose/sneezing and headaches/migraines are tell-tale for it. And Joghurt (probiotics) and cheese (especially if it’s not a young cheese) would track well with that.

    13. Koala dreams*

      Can you use earplugs? There are silicone earplugs that aren’t very noticeable, or if you can find foam ones in less bright colors. (For some reason I end up only finding pink foam earplugs.) You can still hear, but the volume will be lower. There are also special earplugs made for musicians that are supposed to preserve the actual sounds better while lowering the volume, but I haven’t tried them.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        I probably could, but I answer the phone quite often at work. I feel like I’d be having to take them out frequently just to pick up a call! Thanks for the suggestion, though!

    14. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Spouse has a loud sneeze which causes me to jump in alarm. Now he warns me (“I’m gonna sneeze!”) And it really helps. So maybe you could tell co-worker that her sneezes startle you and ask for a heads up. At the very least, it will prepare you for what’s to come, and it may cause her to think about how she sneezes and modify it a bit.

    15. Bananatiel*

      I know this sounds impossible but you MIGHT actually get used to it. At least, “used to it” meaning that it doesn’t actively anger you or distract you from your work. Years ago in my old job we had a new person that full-on shrieked when she sneezed. Almost like a tortured scream. The first time it happened I was terrified because I thought someone got hurt (or god knows what). I actually went to my boss’s office to make sure it wasn’t just me imagining things, and nope, she’d heard it too and actually went to the source of the noise to investigate. It was the new person, sneezing! But man, she did sneeze a lot and it was SO LOUD. I had interns: every time we had a new batch of them in I’d have to gently explain what was happening the first time they heard it since they’d come running into my office confused. I just want to illustrate that this was a noise that really caught everyone’s attention and freaked out multiple people.

      What surprised me was… I just started to get used to it. It’d definitely catch my attention every time but it just became a thing where I’d hear it and think “oh, just Susan again” and get back to my work. It definitely took time but… it’s crazy how the human mind gets used to things if you just keep reminding yourself that you can’t change someone’s sneeze and like another poster said, try to find the humor in it as much as possible. I frequently had to imagine myself in an office sitcom in that job anyway, for other reasons, ha.

    16. Sleepytime Tea*

      I worked with someone who made these horrible sounds. A cough mixed with the sound of clearing your throat mixed with the sound of gagging mixed with the sound of hawking up a loogie. It was ALL DAY LONG. One day I offered him some cold medicine or something like that. He then told me he had a medical condition (some sort of issue where the esophagus doesn’t close properly so stomach acid would constantly creep up his throat). Nothing to be done about it.

      After knowing that, it somehow bugged me less. I mean, he literally couldn’t do anything about it. I think that’s all you can do here. Your coworker can’t control the fact that she sneezes or that it sounds that way. Be sympathetic/empathetic instead. It’s your only cause of action.

    17. Orange You Glad*

      If you believe in/are into dietary supplements, I’ve had great results with a chelated magnesium supplement.

      When I have a magnesium deficiency, I am anxious and normal noises sound *MUCH* louder & more disturbing. Taking a chelated magnesium supplement regularly has increased my tolerance for my downstairs neighbors howling dog. I even stopped taking it for two weeks to make sure that was what created the difference and it did!

      Basically it makes me overall less “jumpy” and I don’t startle as easily and obnoxious noises go from 10/10 irritating to 4/10 irritating.

    18. smoke tree*

      Oh, I see that you work with my mother. I’m sorry, I’ve tried to get her to moderate her sneezes for years, but it hasn’t had any affect.

    19. Owler*

      This is a long shot, but can you try to sit in a different spot (in your cube) and see if a slight change in your position helps? I am particularly sensitive to chewing noises behind my right side. Picture a noise in the quadrant on a clock between 4:00 to 6:00, and that’s my sensitive spot. If I can move the noise out from behind me, it doesn’t bother me as much.
      Other suggestions: I chew gum so my ears hear my chewing instead of someone else’s. Also, sometimes wearing one earbud is less noticeable and leaves the other free for phone answering. Good luck!

  7. Awkward Moose*

    I started working for a company where I’m the only female on my team.

    I received a call from a company that needed materials. My co-worker Fergus was by his desk so I talked to him about it and we walked together to the warehouse.

    Fergus and I were looking for these materials in the warehouse. Archibald came over and claimed that he just wanted to say “hi”, but it felt weird for him to be there. He’s manager of another department, so I don’t know why he was there but whatever. He talked with us for a little bit, then left.

    A few weeks ago, my boss had Fergus and I go pick up something. It took forever. I heard Archibald tell Fergus, “I saw you two leaving around 2:15 pm”.

    Archibald only seems involved when Fergus and I are together. The thing is, Fergus and I have to work together, so it’d be weird if we didn’t talk. Archibald has never said anything to me about Fergus or anything, so maybe he’s just looking out, but Fergus is engaged and I’m single, but not interested in him. (I don’t date people that I work with.)

    I get nervous and tend to have a nervous laugh, plus Fergus is very funny, so maybe it seems like we’re flirting? If I stopped talking to him completely, I couldn’t get my work done.

    Is this weird or am I making a big deal out of nothing?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Archibald is the weird one. If he says something when you’re around, maybe look at him and tell him that yes, you talk to your coworker, and is there a problem with that?

      1. Marthooh*

        It sounds a little defensive put this way. If Archibald brings it up, just ask him if there’s a problem. Let him explain his thinking, without jumping to potential coworker romance.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          I think it’s in the tone. The way it sounds in my head, it’s very matter of fact and puts him on the spot that he’s out of line. If you can’t pull off that kind of tone though don’t take that approach. We’re all different, so I get it.

          1. Hello gorgeous!*

            If you think his tone is a question being phrased as a comment, return the awareness to sender, — “I’m sorry Arch, do you have a question.” Or “What an odd thing to notice,”. Or, “Oh, is I think part of your job to be a time lock, or just a hobby?”

    2. Zephy*

      Archibald is the one being weird about this. You’re not doing anything wrong by interacting with a coworker while female.

    3. Michelle*

      This is weird. I think Archibald is nosy or maybe he could be interested in you? I’m married but I have to talk to lots of male coworkers and even go on trips/lunches/meetings with them and it’s never been a problem.

    4. LKW*

      Either Archibald is weird or he has information that he’s not sharing. Like Fergus has had inappropriate work relationships prior.

      Keep doing what you’re doing.

    5. Marthooh*

      There doesn’t seem to be anything for you to do here. Maybe Archibald is being nosy, but he hasn’t brought it up with you yet, so don’t borrow trouble!

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      Archibald has assigned himself as the Propriety Police and it trying to protect the hapless Fergus from the Man-eating Seductress OP
      He’s a freaking busybody and needs to mind his own business. Ignore him and be your professional self.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Archibald is a frigging nosy weirdo.

      This is not normal behavior on his part. You’re colleagues, you do things together at work because it’s a team effort. Just ew.

      Also do they even know you’re single? I assume everyone is coupled or not interested unless they are actively speaking differently.

    8. Liz*

      I agree that Archibald is being the weird one. It doesn’t seem like he has any reason to comment on what you and Fergus are doing, even IF it wasn’t work related. And you’re not making a big deal out of it, but if i were in your shoes, it would bug me as well. Archibald seems like he wants to stir things up, for whatever reasons he might have.

    9. Parenthetically*

      This has nothing to do with you. As a woman who married late for my community (I can think of a dozen people in my circle who got married before they could legally drink), I got really familiar with being cast as the potential seductress or being the target of “it’s inappropriate for men and women to talk alone”-type paternalistic garbage.

      Whatever you do, don’t stop talking to Fergus. Archibald is being a weird busybody and TBH I don’t think it would hurt to mention to his manager the next time you’re speaking to her. Just in an offhand, “Hey, does Archibald have some kind of advisory capacity over me or Fergus? He’s been keeping track of some of our departure times and monitoring some of our work and I didn’t want to push back if he does, since he doesn’t seem to do the same with anyone else.” This flags to Archibald’s manager that he’s doing something odd with the easy cover of the fact that you’re fairly new.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Worse than “departure times” to me that he’s been monitoring their trips to the supply warehouse. VERY weird.

    10. Lissa*

      This happened twice in a span of weeks? I think you are definitely free to keep acting normally and not address it – it might be a coincidence but if it’s not, it’s his own issue and I think addressing it would only make things worse. Trying to read the tea leaves and figure out why he’s doing it feels impossible; could be any of the many suggestions here (Archibald likes you, Archibald knows something about Fergus having inappropriate relationships previously, Archibald thinks you’re a succubus…) but at this point from the two interactions, I can’t see any way to figure out which it is and even if you did, it’s not likely that anything you could do would help.
      He’ll get over it or else make it so clear he has an issue you’ll have more standing to say something, I hope.

  8. Rosie The Rager*

    Need to have a direct talk with my boss: Any suggestions?

    Since January, I have worked for Missy, the sole owner of a tiny PR company with only us and a sometimes-present admin.

    Several instances of unprofessional behavior have caused me to evaluate the need to have a very direct conversation with Missy about how we can better work together. I am listing the issues below, please take a read.

    1. Missy hired a new part-time admin after the position had been vacant for three months. She only told me Friday that she was conducting interviews, not that she was planning on conducting reference checks and making an offer. Imagine my surprise at 11 a.m. Monday when I heard the doorbell, went to check and saw an unfamiliar woman at the door. I asked if I could help me, and she responded that she was the new admin. I was floored and completely embarrassed! Later that day, Missy left with me with the new hire and told me to address her questions. This meant my unpaid lunch break was interrupted four times, and I had to delay my own deadline-driven project to show Amy how the computer program worked. How do I explain to Missy that I believe Amy’s first day could have been handled better?

    2. Despite her husband having no ties to the company, Missy asked him to go into the company’s QuickBooks account and fix my paycheck after I was shorted more than an hour’s worth of pay. It made me uncomfortable that someone besides Missy or the bookkeeper would be looking at my hours, pay rate and tax status. What should I say?

    3. Missy frequently denies having received emails and asks me to resend them (up to three times, in some cases). This slows down progress on the issues at hand and leaves me frustrated. I have asked how she would like the subject lines worded, if there’s a particular time of day that it helps to send, and other questions to coordinate the best means of sending her emails so she can track them. What else can I do?

    4. Because she’s paranoid about either my position or the admin learning anything about client contracts, neither of us can attend client meetings, draft or read contracts, or otherwise be involved in the monetary aspects. However, Missy repeatedly complains to me that she has no money and is continually worried about losing any of her contracts. This genuine makes no sense to me! How can I help with money concerns if I have no involvement with the rates and deliverables agreed to in the contracts?

    5. Missy interrupts me an average of five times a day with non-urgent requests that disrupt the flow of my work and sometimes cause me to make mistakes. I have asked her about planning a priorities meeting to address anything timely weighing on her mind, but she immediately becomes defensive and informs me she has too many meetings to do this. Is there anything I can do?

    6. On several occasions, Missy will go on an “errand” and not return by end of business. This means I have no means of checking in with her about the status of my assignments at the end of the day. I have inquired about leaving a typed up status report, but she has declined and told me she has no interest in reading it. Is there a way to effectively update her, even though she takes off with no warning and isn’t back when I end my day?

    Thanks for reading! Please share any suggestions you have.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Me,

        I’ve been applying and interviewing for positions for the past four months but am not getting any offers.

        For the time being, I am trying to keep this job so that I can pay my bills without eating into my savings and also to build up my portfolio.

        I just need to find a way of having some professional standards with Missy and maintaining at least the semblance of organization.

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            WellRed,

            Missy likely has ADHD and anxiety. However, I ask that everyone refrain from using the term “nuts.”

            Mental health is a serious issue, and it serves none of our best interest to refer to it in flippant and dismissive terms.

              1. Design Dork*

                Sorry, I just realized your the OP and might have more insight it Missy’s background. It’s still not good to assume mental health problems about an individual

                1. Rosie The Rager*

                  Design Dork,

                  At this point it’s not an assumption. Missy’s pharmacy refills, her behaviors, and her therapist all make a firm case for a diagnoses of ADHD.

                  I would feel more sympathy for her if she would just address her need to have things explained multiple times, her aversions to both multi syllable words and long sentences, and her need to leave the office for distractions because taking calls, scheduling meetings, and overseeing projects overwhelms her.

            3. Kuododi*

              Point of clarification…I’m on a laundry list of meds for chronic health concerns as well as a new cancer dx. Using my need to go to the pharmacy, by what you posted, I should have a dx of ADHD. I do agree that on the surface, what OP relayed to us could arguably meet dx for ADHD. I can however, think of other dx which involve those listed symptoms. (That’s even without getting out my DSM.). There are reasons why people who serve in the mental health arena aren’t allowed to give dx without having evaluated the client in person. Afraid this is one of those situations where A +B doesn’t equal C. Best regards and I hope you have a great weekend.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Are you an at-will employee? Or do you have a contract?

          I’m only saying this because Missy is in a very powerful position. You can try to put boundaries in place and chat with her all day long but long story short, she’s going to just fire you if she doesn’t want to deal with you anymore once you start pushing back. That’s sadly how most people in a 2.5 person office operate, since someone in Missy’s situation doesn’t really care, you don’t even get to meet her clients…

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            The Man, Becky Lynch,

            At this point, I have enough in savings that if the position ended I could get by for a while.

            It’s my preference to keep the job until I can secure something else.

            However, no one has stayed longer than 9 months in 3 years, so I know I’m at the breaking point.

            Because Missy has dyslexia and has a very difficult time writing, I doubt she wants to go through the trouble of not having a writer on staff. It would mean she could not fulfill her contractual obligations, which would jeopardize her company’s financial well-being.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              You know that people like this will just hire someone to replace you behind your back…she’s already shown you that she hires people without giving you a heads up. So I’m truly relieved that you have a savings in place because I don’t trust this woman. Don’t let yourself be lulled into false security that she needs someone in your spot, since that can easily be fixed.

              She has went through staff so quickly because she hasn’t vetted correctly for her quirky needs. She’ll find someone one day but yeah, it’s a long tedious drive on her end.

              1. Rosie The Rager*

                The Man, Becky Lynch,

                If she chooses to go behind my back and replace me, well then that happens.

                It’s a part-time job. I cannot live my life being a combination of frustrated and paranoid because my boss lacks the skills to effectively manage.

                What is within my power is to speak up clearly and directly with suggestions on how to improve the systems in place and do work to the best of my abilities. That’s it.

                Missy’s tiny business has gone through staffers like tissues for several years. My goal is to get out before I’m there for an entire year.

                1. fposte*

                  It’s true that speaking up is within your power, but it’s not true that that’s it. What’s also within your power is making peace with this. Now it might not be worth it to you–you’re looking to move on anyway and you’ve got a financial cushion, so it could be worth it to you to leave if nothing changes after you have your heart to heart. But you absolutely do have the option of accepting things as they are if you can’t change them.

                2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                  Well no duh you are well within your rights to speak up.

                  I can go talk to the owners of the company I’m part of too and say whatever I please to them. They aren’t going to murder me or something obscene. But you’re really invested in demanding something from a woman, who you work part time for, who has a track record for not keeping employees and thinking it’s going to get you very far. The reality is you’re wasting your time.

                  You asked us for help and advice, we’ve given it and you dug your heels into the ground and fought even harder.

                  You seem like a handful and I hope Missy does fire you. For both of your sanity in the end. You fail to recognize that you’re going to probably lose your job, since this isn’t an even playing field or an organization in place that has any protection of your job what so ever.

                  Then do yourself a favor and never work for a one person show again, this is pretty typical for micro sized businesses to operate without a fully functioning system in place.

            2. Frankie*

              Important detail. Is her dyslexia being addressed? Is she using assistive software (voiceover, type-to-text)? It shouldn’t be your job to explore those for her, but those could help her get through her work and function better in daily tasks.

              Not saying this is a salvageable work situation–sounds like she may not have the right skill set to be an owner–but it’s something that might help.

              I’d say you might need to lobby her to trust you guys with contracts (not sure if that’s realistic). I suspect there’s a lot she doesn’t know/doesn’t do because the dyslexia is a barrier and many people are socialized to hide it/hack it rather than deal with it. If she opened up more on the work you guys could help.

              1. Rosie The Rager*

                Frankie,

                She hasn’t updated the internal software in 5 years because of finances. So, I don’t believe she would invest in voice-assisted software.

                In terms of the contracts, I believe her husband, who is a CFO in his family’s business, provides oversight to those. I haven’t seen a single one, even to see the expectations of deliverables.

                When money is discussed, I am asked to leave the room. Therefore, I have no realistic idea of the scope of any of the projects.

                1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                  Google Docs is free and provides basic speech to text. Schools find it a good to to help kids do assignments even while they’re having problems with keyboards.
                  If nothing else, it might give you something to edit more quickly.

            3. ...*

              Just curious how do you know so much about her prescription meds and psychological conditions? Does she share that? Seems like another huge red flag

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Sunflower,

        I am second in command and oversee all external communication–social media, press releases, etc.

        1. Sunflower*

          I agree with ‘Me’ above. It sounds like you’ve given Missy a ton of opportunities to work better together and she’s not interested. It seems she wants someone who’s going to work around the way she works. I hate people like this but shes the owner and if she wants her company to not succeed because she doesn’t want to collaborate, that’s on her.

          FWIW, I really don’t work well in environments like that and I would be really unhappy working for her. I don’t think you need to find a new job tomorrow but I highly doubt she will want to change her work styles in anyway regardless of how good or easy of an idea you have.

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            Sunflower,

            I appreciate your feedback and am relieved to know that someone else finds an unorganized workplace difficult to navigate.

            My take on the matter is that if I directly tell her that the lack of clear communication and follow-through is a hindrance to my success in this role, then maybe we can collaborate on ways to improve, even slightly, our communication system.

            Then again, perhaps I’m being excessively optimistic!

            1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

              It sounds like you have already been pretty clear with asking for better systems, etc and she’s not responsive. Do you really think she has the ability or desire to be collaborative, or is it easier for her to just ignore the problems?

            2. Librarian of SHIELD*

              I think you might be right about being excessively optimistic.

              You can definitely have the sit down you’re thinking about if that’s what you really want to do. But if this is Missy’s working style and she’s happy and comfortable with how things are working, she might not be in a big hurry to change it for someone else’s preferences.

              All I’m saying is, be prepared to go in with your list of things you think she’s done poorly and suggestions for potential changes and hear “It looks like you’re just not a good fit for the company.”

        2. Owler*

          Second in command? From your own description, you are a part-timer working two days a week as an assistant to a sole proprietor. Unless you have bought in and have financial equity in the company, you probably should reassess that description of “second in command”.

    3. Yorick*

      1. I don’t think you should say anything now, until this admin leaves and she will presumably be about to hire again.

      6. I think you can just start to go home at the end of your day, as long as you have regular hours so that would make sense. Does she really need an update every day before you leave? Or can you just send the deliverable to her if complete/pick up on incomplete things the next day? If there is a significant update that she’ll need to know, you can send an email, leave her a document (though she may not read it), or call her (leave a message if necessary).

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Yorick,

        I typically only work Monday and Wednesday, so when I leave Wednesday all the social media, press releases and blogs need to be set through Monday morning.

        Missy has contacted me on the weekends about issues she didn’t address with me before the end of Wednesday. I hope to avoid such interruptions going forward.

        1. Marthooh*

          Are you hourly? If so, leave a status report on her desk when you leave on Wednesday, and if she calls or texts you at home, remind her that you will be charging for the time you spend on those requests. And do remember to charge, in 15-minute increments. It’s probably a good idea to discuss this with her first.

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            Marthooh, I have done status reports that go unread. She then asked me to stop clogging her inbox with them.

            Additionally, I have charged her for contacting me after hours. It hasn’t deterred her.

          2. Yorick*

            I’d probably call her an hour or so before you leave on Wednesday to give her an update and see if there’s anything else. She might still call on the weekend for stuff, and you can either be unavailable or do the work and charge for that time.

        2. Samwise*

          You’re part-time, so you do not need to answer Missy’s phone calls when you are not in the office, unless she is **paying** you for the time you spend on the phone with her. Don’t pick up. Set her ringtone and texttone to silent. When you leave for the day on Monday and Wednesday, leave your update printed out at your desk (and perhaps on her desk as well) and email her a copy. If you think she’ll pay more attention to a voicemail, call her voicemail and leave your update as a message.

          Then go home and don’t answer her calls. Unless she’s willing to pay you for them.

    4. Colette*

      I think these all have the same answer – they aren’t your problem. This is Missy’s company, and this is how she wants to run things. If she wants to interrupt you, she can do that. If she doesn’t want to know your status at the end of the day, it’s not a problem you need to solve.

      One note – it sounds like she doesn’t want to use email (or at least that you prefer it more than she does) – so when you need input from her, walk over and talk to her or call. You can still send the email, but expect that you will need to bring it to her attention some other way.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Colette,

        The thing is that she specifically asks for information to be emailed to her, then says she cannot find it. I then must print out a copy in addition to resending the email. She usually reads and edits the print out, rather than engaging the email at all.

        If someone asks you to share information in one particular format, and you do that. Shouldn’t the person actually use the information in said format?

        1. fposte*

          Yes, but you need to let go of “should” here. It’s doing you more harm than good. Missy is gonna Missy whether she should or not.

          You’ve made reasonable efforts at change. It’s clear Missy isn’t a change person. The question therefore needs to be shifted to “How do I work with the situation that I have?” rather than “How do I change her?” Additionally, as you note, another question is “How do I assess a potential position so I’m in a better place next time?” And that’s why it would be useful to hear about what process you underwent here.

        2. valentine*

          this is how she wants to run things.
          This is the bottom line. A lot of what you want to say is what you’d say to a subordinate. Missy doesn’t care what your preferences are as far as allocating your time (Amy; Missy treating you like a sitting-duck friend). It’s difficult when others don’t share your professional standards and just plain common sense. Think of Missy as the given in a math problem. The only power you have is over your response. You can detach so you literally care less when you have to email things repeatedly (in future, do it before she says anything; if possible, schedule them to send at intervals) and Amy needing stuff isn’t an emergency. You could have told Amy you’d go to her when you finished lunch and you can say to her, “Please ignore me during my lunch. If you email, I’ll see it when I’m done.” Lunch is sacred. Protect that time. I understand if you didn’t want to leave Amy idle, but that wouldn’t be your fault. You could have prioritized your priority assignment over her training need.

          If Missy’s the kind of person you can’t win with, you may as well please yourself, but the good news is it seems you have a lot more leeway than you think to make decisions, at least with Amy.

        3. Colette*

          So email her, print out the email you just sent, and drop it on her desk.

          It’s not efficient for the business as a whole, but it is efficient for you because it will help you get what you need to keep working.

          If I hire someone to mow my lawn and I want them to do 25% of the front, then 25% the side, then 25% of the back, and keep rotating between the three until they are all done, then that’s what I am hiring them to do, even if it’s an inefficient way to mow the lawn. Sometimes the job isn’t just the end goal, it’s how you get there. And if they refused to do it that way, I’d talk with them and eventually fire them because they are not willing to do what I want them to do.

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            Colette,

            I don’t have access to her office when she’s not there.

            It’s on a different floor and frequently locked up. Instead, I have left materials on the kitchen island that she claims never to have received. This happened once, and her husband ran upstairs to her desk, found the documents, and brought them downstairs. He effectively forced her to apologize.

            It was an awkward moment for everyone.

            1. Samwise*

              Tape it to her door. Seriously! Unless it’s confidential info, stick it right on her door. And email it. And read it into her voicemail.
              It’s ridiculous to have to give the same info in several formats, but this way you have sufficiently cya and if she complains, she can kya. (Not really, but that’s how I’d feel about it!)

            2. Colette*

              So you have 2 choices – find a way that works, or learn to live with the fact that she will claim she hasn’t received it. I don’t know which one is most appropriate for you, but getting her to read her email reliably is not one of the choices available to you, so those are the two you have.

        4. kittymommy*

          I have a boss that is like this. I just email it and state (in the email) I’m also leaving a hardcopy on their desk. A couple of times I have been told “you don’t have to do both”. I still do.

      2. Jess*

        I agree with Colette — except for the last issue of communicating at the end of day/week. You mention above that you work Mon-Wed, and so when Missy doesn’t connect with you at the end of a Wednesday, you sometimes get contacted on the weekend and wish to avoid that. I think this is something to discuss directly. Ideally you’d find a mutually-agreeable way to communicate status etc before leaving on Wednesday, since that’s a missing piece here that affects both of you, and that would cut down on her contacting you — but given the nature of PR, it’s possible that some contact before the following Monday may still be necessary, at least occasionally. If that is the case, it would be helpful to clarify that part of the role explicitly — and then set expectations that work for both of you, or decide to suck it up (it’s her company), or leave.

        Hope this is helpful.

    5. Jamie*

      1. If you are non-exempt you should legally be paid for the time you worked on lunch. Every company I’ve ever worked for had a terrible on-boarding process so I feel your pain, but have no advice other than to swear quietly out of ear shot at how such a simple thing gets messed up all the time.

      2. Nothing on this one. She’s the sole owner and she can have anyone go in and take care of things like that. There isn’t an expectation of privacy there.

      3 – totally get why you’re frustrated, but I don’t see anything beyond what you’re doing other than keep sending them at her request. As annoying as it is you can’t require her to be more organized.

      4 – she’s not asking you to do anything about it, she’s venting. IME when the owner of the company is openly complaining about cash flow to employees it’s a good idea to start looking because it doesn’t bode well.

      5 – This would drive me insane. I keep a running action list so when someone has an extemporaneous request I add it to my list and prioritize it accordingly. Tbh it sounds like your boss is pretty disorganized over all and there isn’t much you can do to change that, but I get the frustration.

      6 – sounds like she doesn’t want a status update so I wouldn’t worry about it. Anything you think she needs to know shoot her an email to cover your ass. I keep my own updates on stuff on my action list so I can give someone an update at a glance if asked about something I’m working on. Nothing that takes a lot of time to update just that on action item X I’m waiting for response from Jane and when I last followed up, or whatever. Something like that will give you info at your fingertips to update her when/if she asks for it.

      1. r.d.*

        Yeah, this.

        Don’t work on your lunch break or over the weekend if your won’t be paid for it.

        2 and 3 are non-issues and it surprises me that they bother you enough to bring up instead of labeling them the minor irritations that they are.

        4, 5 & 6 are bigger irritations, but not a sign of a dysfunctional workplace. Just maybe a sign that you don’t work well with your boss.

      2. Yorick*

        Yeah, #2 is not an issue. Think of it as a family business. The husband is connected to your company since his wife owns it.

      3. Mediamaven*

        Agreed with your wonderfully detailed notes. Particularly on number 2 – I have had my husband look at my company books before if there is something I have a question about. Nothing illegal or inappropriate there. They are Missy’s books and she can show them to whoever she chooses. She sounds like a terrible boss but not all of the things mentioned are out of line.

    6. fposte*

      All of these seem to boil down to “How do I make Missy be different?” in a workplace where Missy basically *is* the business. So the answer really is going to be “You can’t.” You’ve made decent good faith efforts on procedural changes in hope they’ll help, and they didn’t, because she’s comfortable working the way she does and that’s a priority for her.

      I’d be curious to hear about how you got this job. Was your hiring more orthodox? Did you have a lot of experience or is this a first or nearly first job? What’s mentioned here is a blend of wildly out of line and not hugely surprising for a small business, and I’m wondering if any of this was visible in advance.

      1. RagingADHD*

        If you search back in OP’s post history, yes this was all visible in advance.

        OP was extremely unhappy about the entire hiring process, which was exactly as casual and idiosyncratic as you’d imagine from the description “One-person PR agency”. OP was intensely frustrated that Missy did not follow corporate-style procedures.

        There was a good deal of discussion on how what is “normal” in a solo-professional firm is very different than a corporate environment, and that it probably was not a good fit for OPs temperament and work style. That seems to have borne out in practice.

    7. DaniCalifornia*

      Some of these things like #2 and #5 and #6 are life in extremely small businesses. It sounds like there is an owner and now 2 employees. Owners have a hard time giving control to others even when they complain about having no time. She sounds disorganized and she doesn’t have to answer to anyone. So she isn’t going to be thinking of whether or not you need her. I know this bc my current boss is this way. My boss has their spouse do the bookkeeping and we all have access to QB and can see each others pay if we wanted to. We are never sure if they will show up when there are no appointments on the calendar or if they’ll work from home.

      The other stuff sound like someone who doesn’t know how to run a company well or effectively. Making a profit isn’t the only way to run a business well. Personally I’d be looking for other jobs. Refusal to read emails after sending it multiple times is ridiculous. The way she handled the new hire is terrible. Limiting you from parts of the business and then complaining about it shows she has no clue. These little things add up into larger areas of concerns. She doesn’t sound invested in your well being at this company.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        DanCalifornia,

        I appreciate you input and commiseration about how the unorganized nature of small businesses is oftentimes a disservice to employees.

        As an aside, you and other commentators fail to recognize that finding a decent-paying full-time job takes months and that I’m trying to go along to get along until I can secure another position. I have several resumes, have applied for dozens of jobs, and have attended many interviews. Not every interview leads to an offer.

        My concern with quickly finding another job is to find myself in a similar situation, only being stuck there 40 hours a week with even less time to job hunt.

        1. Degen From Upcountry*

          I don’t think anyone is failing to realize that. It’s just that the problems you bring up sound like problems you’d go over with an employee in a 1:1 or performance review, not something you’d bring up to your boss with any real hope of things changing. It is unlikely she will change any of these behaviors and is therefore probably not worth your time and effort to have the conversation.

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            Degen From Upcountry,

            I don’t know if and how Missy will respond to my suggestions for improvement until I have spoken to her.

            For the past 9 months, I have swallowed my anger and tolerated a great many unnecessary miscommunications.

            The title of post post is “Need to have a direct talk with my boss: Any suggestions?” This means I’ve already determined that the discussion is going to happen.

            1. Degen From Upcountry*

              You also asked for us to share all of our suggestions, but then accused us of not understanding that job searches take a long time. From my personal experience, having your planned discussion with Missy would only make me more angry, but it sounds like that’s a suggestion you don’t want, and that’s fine. I’ll bow out.

        2. DaniCalifornia*

          Rosie I completely understand. I think when people say leave it’s because they know, no matter what you try, your boss isn’t going to change. I have adjusted myself and my actions over the past 2 years that I’ve been unhappy in my job and I am still unhappy. I still don’t get results, and my boss is still a bad boss. I’ve certainly learned a lot about how to manage my own expectations and reactions/responses to bad things at work. But the emotional, mental, and physical toll it took were not worth it.

          “As an aside, you and other commentators fail to recognize that finding a decent-paying full-time job takes months and that I’m trying to go along to get along until I can secure another position. I have several resumes, have applied for dozens of jobs, and have attended many interviews. Not every interview leads to an offer.”

          I think many of the commenters understand that job searching is not always fun or fast. Many of the comments themselves are about how long people have been job searching. So we don’t fail to see it. I’ve been searching on/off for 2 years and am now only in the final stages for one job. I sent 85 resumes in 1 month alone recently and heard from 4 total, with only 1 leading to a phone interview and then nothing. A recruiting firm actually got me my current potential position. Keep on looking and you’ll find something! I have hope you will! At least with what you’re experiencing now you can be aware of red flags during interviews and you can research potential companies. You can determine what you like and don’t like about small/big companies, management styles, your field.

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            DaniCalifornia,

            Thanks for your rebuttal.

            I do have a quick logic check for you: Your experience is NOT my experience. Your experience is NOT universal. Your experience is ONLY your experience.

            It’s unfortunate that you’ve been stuck in a job you dislike for 2 years. However, we are NOT competing in the miserable job Olympics. I wrote a detailed message to the AMA Open Thread for my specific issues.

            If you would like sympathy and strategies for your particular issues, I sincerely suggest you post a comment on the open thread.

            Again, our experiences are NOT one in the same, and your decision to compare them troubles me.

            1. Jamie*

              People who are commenting are trying to help you, including @DaniCalifornia and sharing their experiences is part of having a discussion.

              The level of control you’re attempting to exert over how other people communicate here in this thread is excessive and quite rude to people who were merely contributing to your discussion.

              Both with commenters here and with your boss, you can’t control how others choose to communicate, you can only control yourself and your reactions.

              1. BRR*

                All of this. Everyone appears to have read through your post and a lot of people, myself included, think this discussion with Missy will go over like a lead balloon. She seems awful to work for and I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. A lot of people have worked with/for someone like this and are sharing their experience that this type of person doesn’t see themselves as a problem and has no desire to change. Not only will Missy not change, you’re risking a lot by having this type of discussion with her.

                Honestly, beyond Missy being awful at her job, I am going to go out on a limb and imagine you’re preferred working style would have a lot of structure and you’re not going to be able to get this here. I wish you luck in your job search!

            2. AvonLady Barksdale*

              Dani was offering you support (very kindly, from where I sit). There’s no need to be rude to her. You can just ignore her, you know. And everyone else who offers you advice you don’t like.

            4. Degen From Upcountry*

              I agree completely with Jamie. This is getting a bit out of hand. What advice were you hoping to get?

            5. DaniCalifornia*

              Yikes! I was just trying to commiserate and agree that yes it seems like Missy isn’t doing a great job and yes job searching is tough and can take a while. Instead you chose to be rude. It probably seemed like a lot of comments said “Just leave” when as you point out that is easier said than done. I appreciate that you’re trying to have discussions with Missy but my point in sharing my experience was to show that we aren’t saying “You should find another job, it’s just so easy to do, why haven’t you left yet?” it was to say “Sounds like you need to find another job good luck in doing so, we know it’s hard out there.”

              I have gained tons of great advice (and sympathetic ears) about my own toxic job situation here on AAM. It is a great place to bounce ideas and ask for feedback. I’m thankful for those who comment back ideas/thoughts/opinions even if it’s sometimes hard to hear. It’s broadened how I think about work topics and how others can view a situation completely different from me. I wish you the best with Missy and your job search if you choose to keep looking!

              1. Michelle*

                I think everyone is trying to help Rosie the Rager but every suggestion is met with why that won’t work and she gets defensive. It seems as she wants the “magic words” that will make Missy communicate and work like Rosie wants her to and, in my experience, those words don’t exist.

            6. Quake Johnson*

              She was being nice to you and you tore her head off. I was sympathetic to your issues but now I’m wondering if Missy’s really the problematic one in the business…

            7. Elizabeth West*

              WHOA WHOA WHOA

              Dani’s comment was actually quite sympathetic; no need to be snippy.

              Look, you have a scattered and unprofessional boss who is not going to change. This is no reflection on you; her behavior is hers to control, and she doesn’t seem interested in doing anything differently. It’s not your responsibility to fix her, either.

              You could try to talk to her, but from what you’ve said, I doubt it will do any good. I know you feel like you need to stay for a while longer, but I don’t think it’s worth it, either for your peace of mind or your career. If I were you, I’d ramp up my job search and for now, just do your work and don’t answer her calls after hours. Don’t work through your lunch.

            8. Mellow*

              “I have several resumes, have applied for dozens of jobs, and have attended many interviews. Not every interview leads to an offer.”

              ——————-

              From the looks of things – your response to Dani, for one – I can see why.

            9. Librarian of SHIELD*

              I’m not trying to pile on. Really. I’m not.

              But here’s the thing. Every single person responding to this thread has told you a variation of the same thing. Missy’s the owner, she gets to decide how to run her company, and this is what she’s decided on. You going in with a list of grievances and telling her she should be different from how she currently is will probably not change her mind. There is no magical combination of words that will make Missy see the light and change every aspect of the way she runs her company.

              And I get that you’re frustrated. I would be too. But we’re all just here trying to be kind to you and help you cope until you find a place to work that’s more in line with your work style, and you’re biting people’s heads off left and right. It’s not cool to ask people for help and then shout at them that they’re not helping you correctly just because they’re not telling you what you want to hear.

              Missy isn’t going to change because you tell her she should. So find a way to deal with that in the short term and keep applying for jobs until you get one. That’s the advice. Take it or leave it.

        3. WellRed*

          “As an aside, you and other commentators fail to recognize that finding a decent-paying full-time job takes months and that I’m trying to go along to get along until I can secure another position.”

          No, we don’t fail to recognize that. Also, if you truly want go along to get along, that means accepting that none of this will change. Finally, please don’t let this totally bizarre situation warp your thinking. You’ll eventually land something and I sincerely believe nothing could match the situation you’re in now.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            All of this. Going along to get along means just that – do what Missy tells you to do (no matter how asinine) mentally disengage from this place so you don’t care so much about what happens and you’ll limit your own stress, and continue your own job search in the meantime.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              Yeah, this. When OldExjob started sucking like a black hole, the only thing I could do was stop giving a shit. It was actually very freeing — I still did my work, but when I couldn’t get supplies, for example, I didn’t have to worry about it because I didn’t care. I just did what I could as best I could and left it at that.

    8. CAA*

      So mostly this is just the way things are when you work for a small sole proprietor who likes to communicate verbally instead of by email. Missy is who she is and she works the way she works. You can’t change someone else, so you really have to figure out if you want to and will be able to change yourself enough to be happy working for her.

      1) The next time you hear that Missy is interviewing, you can ask her to let you know before that person starts, even if she has to text you at night, so that you can arrange your schedule in a way that will allow you to help the new hire on her first day. You can say this was because it was difficult when Amy started. Otherwise, there’s no reason to bring it up now. If she only hires people twice a year, she’s not likely to even remember that you had a problem with what she did six months previously or understand why your having a problem should make her do something different in the future.

      2) You should definitely not say anything about her husband having seen your paycheck. Missy is allowed to show the financial information for her business to anyone she wants. This is true for every business. Even a major corporation is allowed to post your name and salary publicly if they feel like it, and many government agencies are legally required to do so. So this would be a weird thing to complain about.

      3) The email thing is annoying, but some people are like this. You can see that Missy is the type of person who is unable to organize incoming written information no matter how you present it, and she considers it to be part of your job to find and provide it when she needs it. Just keep yourself organized so you can quickly find and reforward your previous message when she asks for it.

      4) I think she’s just complaining because everything is expensive and running a small business is tough. It’s not necessarily on you to solve whatever money problems she’s having, and obviously she’s under no obligation to share contract info with you or anyone else. All you can do is offer alternatives when you’re working on projects — what if we reused this graphic from the last campaign for this client, or what if we placed ads here instead of there to save some money?

      5) She’s the boss, and she likes having an assistant that she can talk to whenever she has something to say. Asking her to wait for a pre-set meeting or email you probably isn’t going to work. She’s a verbal communicator who wants to communicate on her schedule. I think this is just something you have to adapt to, though if you say that she’s frequently out in the afternoons, maybe you could save the work that needs uninterrupted concentration for those times.

      6) No, there’s no way to update her every day if she’s told you she doesn’t want that information. Can you establish a project file, either online or on paper, for each project you’re working on and just stick the day’s summary at the top of that file? Perhaps you can train her over time that when she wants to know the status she should look in the file instead of interrupting you to ask for it.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        CAA,

        Thanks for your comment. I disagree with your assessment that “this is just the way things are when you work for a small sole proprietor who likes to communicate verbally instead of by email. Missy is who she is and she works the way she works. You can’t change someone else, so you really have to figure out if you want to and will be able to change yourself enough to be happy working for her.”

        My belief is that until you directly address your concerns with someone and clearly outline how to improve the situation to be mutually beneficial, you haven’t done due diligence. I honestly believe that I need to address most of my concerns with Missy in a concise way that makes clear that changes to the system will make everyone’s life easier and the business more profitable. It’s the ultimate win-win. If she chooses to disregard my comments and concerns, then at least I know I made an effort.

        4. I am not paid nearly enough to serve as someone’s armchair therapist, especially when her very own psychologist has called the office four times that I know of. As an aside, life in general is expensive. Everything costs money. If one reaches 50 years of age and cannot comprehend this, then I don’t know what to say. As an aside, believe me when I tell you I can bellyache right alongside Missy about how tiny my paycheck is, and given that her husband has seen it I’m sure her family knows how little I earn.

        5. If a boss wants quality work completed in a timely fashion, then the she needs to provide a work environment conducive to success for employees. Near constant interruptions and circular monologues about what could be in three months does not move forward today’s work, and only adds unnecessarily to the workload. Also, when Missy goes off on a tangent it takes me longer to complete my work, which means my hours increase and my paycheck is larger. For someone who is terribly concerned about expenses, her actions appear counterproductive. Yes?

        6. The company has Dropbox and my computer has a “Hot Work” file that contains everything I’ve been working on over the past month. Missy demanded I organize my information this way, but she still won’t use it.

        1. fposte*

          The thing is, you have addressed some of the concerns and it hasn’t changed things. I fear you’re stuck in the place where you’re convinced if you just said it a certain way Missy would get it and change, and change to what you’re convinced is right. And that’s not how people work, and I think putting your energy toward that is going to make things worse and possibly put your job at risk.

          What if you focused on “This is how Missy is; what can I do to make it easier to deal with it?”

          1. Design Dork*

            +100
            It sounds like no matter what way you say it, it might be hard for Missy to change who she is. If you do decide to say something, focus on trying to make it a collaborative effort, rather than “you need to do X so I can do Y.” Also I wouldn’t hold out hope that of you do have this conversation it’ll be the end of all problems that you seem to be hoping. From what you said, Missy seems stuck in her ways and as her subordinate, it’s not your job or place to “fix” her

          2. Michelle*

            Agree. There are no magic words that will make Missy change. You have to do the best you can until you find another position.

        2. lost academic*

          It’s not your job to “fix” her. It’s her company. It’s not yours. I think this is a situation you have to realize that letting go of the need to make everything “just so” because it would be “better” is absolutely not your job, your responsibility, your moral imperative, or anything of that kind. You have contracted your time to her – you can make suggestions about ways you think things can be done better or more efficiently but that’s it and after awhile, not worth it.

          Do your work in the time available, go home at the end of the day and leave work at work until you find another job. You’ve already addressed most of the things you brought up in some way and they aren’t going anywhere. It’s time to let it go.

        3. smoke tree*

          I’m honestly not sure what kind of feedback you’re looking for here. No one has any advice to offer about how to make this conversation with Missy go over well, because based on the facts presented, that seems unlikely. It seems that you are determined to talk to her for the sake of your own peace of mind, which is your prerogative, but I’m not sure what you’re expecting to hear that will be helpful?

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Missy sounds like she’s probably not cut out to have employees, let alone anyone listed as a “second in command” role. She doesn’t trust you, therefore there’s no second-in command status in reality. Why doesn’t she have you sign a NDA with the contracts…that’s literally so basic wtf.

      To be honest about the paycheck and her husband seeing your info, he already knows how much she pays you and how much you work since they’re so intertwined. All my bosses spouses know everything about their financials because they share that kind of information with each other for their own personal safety and how much they can afford personally.

    11. Federal Middle Manager*

      Honestly, these all just sound like run-of-the-mill small business things. I’ve worked for multiple solo practitioners who exhibited all or most of these, and worse. You seem very rule and norm oriented, I’d recommend looking for a job in a more structured environment.

    12. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Hi. It sounds like Missy is in way over her head but doesn’t want to admit it. She’s definitely disorganized (and a little off the wall). What you need to do is work around Missy’s nuttiness. I’m dealing with a “Missy” where I work. (only it’s a Mister) and he’s always ‘TOO BUSY” when we try to tell him things and send him emails etc. and when stuff isn’t done, he wants to know why. And we tell him. Because you said you were too busy for such and such and this is the result. Meanwhile, we keep proof that we did OUR jobs. Maybe if Missy starts losing business and missing important things, she’ll realize that she needs to work WITH her second in command (You).

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        Yeah, over her head.

        I’m going to second what many here have said: that Missy isn’t going to change radically soon, and she certainly isn’t going to do so as the result of a single confrontation/conversation.

        However, a broader context: Missy just hasn’t quite realized that she is running a business. I know that sounds odd to say, but I’ve been there myself. I’m wagering she went from being a sole freelancer to deciding at some point that she needed some extra help and so she hired Rosie. In her mind, she is basically still a freelancer, but just has an extra person or two around to help her out. She thinks of herself as a person doing PR with someone else helping her, not as a person running a business with an employee.

        It’s a difficult transition to make. Again, I have had to make that same transition. It took me longer than I care to admit to understand that my job was not to groom llamas or make teapots. My first and only job was to administer a business that grooms llamas and makes teapots. An important but subtle distinction. I don’t think I’ve ever exhibited behaviors like those of Rosie’s boss, but I certainly look back at those early years and cringe at some of the things I did do.

    13. Frankie*

      Just want to state again, since it’s kind of buried in the follow-up, that dyslexia is a huge barrier and if it’s going unaddressed/untreated, that’s likely at the root of her email/report issue and probably impacting contracts as well. This is a huge, huge detail. If she has workarounds in place to deal with her dyslexia, disregard this, but it doesn’t sound like she does.

    14. Jdc*

      I don’t know. I don’t find any of these to be insanely awful. Your boss is allowed to hire someone, interrupt you, have whoever she wants write a check and leave as she pleases.

    15. Jules the 3rd*

      You mention that Missy has dyslexia. That may factor into ‘not reading emails’. Can you set up something that’s easier than ‘wall of text’ emails, like a large whiteboard or calendar with color-coded tasks? I’m thinking something like,:
      Rosie must schedule updates Weds through Mon, and Missy needs to know the topics that are going up. Notification options:
      – Light green post-its on a physical calendar with the update headline on each
      – Computer calendar entries that read out the headlines when clicked

      Look for graphic or spoken ways to store / share the information as much as possible.

      On the interruptions: ADHD often goes along with dyslexia; if that’s in the mix, Missy’s got four things going on in her head all the time, and will need to tell you the one for you while it’s at the forefront. Asking Missy to write it down will not help; a 15 minute ‘touch base’ chat at the start of the day might.

      Missy may change if you find something that works better for her, but it will probably take more of your time and a lot of inventiveness.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Jules the 3rd,

        I appreciate that you see the link between dyslexia and ADHD.

        Yes, I am planning on asking for a 15-minute morning check-in at the start of my workdays. I hope that having an agreed-upon priority list will reduce Missy’s ramblings and allow me to be more productive.

        When I mentioned it Wednesday, she became defensive and said “Well, I’ve just had some many meetings this morning.” At this point, I feel justified in making my work a higher priority. Missy needs to update her schedule to account for what work needs to be done.

        Working with someone who zones out, easily becomes overwhelmed, and lacks basic impulse control is very challenging.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          I can see that you clearly recognize solutions to make the work more effective, and that must be so frustrating! But what others are saying is that, in your role as an employee, you simply do not have the power to tell Missy what she “needs” to do. The nature of employment is, frankly, she’s the boss and she decides how the business will operate. Is her way ineffective and maddening? Yes! Is there a way you can make her open her eyes and see a more logical system? Unfortunately, no.

          It sounds like you’ve already discussed and suggested how to improve these issues, but she has a track record of not wanting to hear them. I fear if you insist on having a sitdown with her, your working relationship will erode even further and/or she will decide you’re not a strong fit for what she needs in the role.

          1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

            Hit submit too soon-

            I’m also concerned by your statement that “I feel justified in making my work a higher priority”. The reality is, as an assistant or even as second in command, your work will *never* be higher priority than the owner’s work. That’s just the way it is, and I know that’s frustrating to accept because it’s getting in the way of you doing a good job. But I think you need to reframe how you view your tasks in the context of the business as a whole and recognize that the way things are working is exactly how Missy wants them to be.

        2. EventPlannerGal*

          I would be interested to know if this job is a step down for you in terms of seniority from whatever your previous job was.

          The reason I’m saying that is because in all your comments here you kind of talk about Missy as though she was *your* subordinate – she needs to do this, she must do that, she has to make your work higher priority, she mustn’t interrupt you, she needs to read your status reports, etc etc. You sound like a manager looking for advice on giving a bad performance review to an unruly intern. That’s not the case. You’re a part-timer that she is employing, and I think it would probably be helpful to try to get out of this frame of mind where you’re viewing her as someone you can control and change. She certainly sounds like a very frustrating and difficult person to work for and the job does not sound like a good match for you, but that’s the way some bosses are and your attempts to change the situation haven’t had much effect.

          At this point, I feel like you should effectively check out of this job and focus as much of your attention as possible on getting back to a more structured, corporate environment.

        3. Jules the 3rd*

          Yes, it is challenging. But she’s your boss.

          You seem kinda stuck on ‘she needs to change.’ She’s not going to change. This is wired in, the only thing she can do is find strategies that work *for her*. Those strategies include dumping ideas on you when she has them (#5) and having others check important things (#2).

          Try visual reminders that require little reading. Try hard to not take this personally, or like she can / should change.

          I used to work with an ADHD boss. Did I feel like I was his mom / big sister sometimes? Yes, yes I did. But that’s what he paid me for – him for vision, me for execution. My flexibility and willingness to try new modes of communication until we found one that worked made it a good partnership.

    16. Micro-Business Owner*

      So… I wouldn’t classify these behaviors as “unprofessional,” as you have. When I saw that tag, I was expecting a ton of over-the-line ridiculousness. These are “not the greatest boss” type behaviors, but they’re otherwise fine. It’s her company, she can suck at managing people if she wants to. With the possible exception of 5, I don’t see how any of these greatly impact your work, but mainly your frustration because you believe that it could be done better.

      I also own a micro business (one employee besides me), and while I try hard to be a good boss, at the end of the day, if my employee came to me and said, “Hey, I think it would be way more efficient if we did X” (which you have already done), and I thought about it was like, “Nah, I’m not going to do that for whatever reason” … Well, that’s the answer. I don’t want you to keep explaining to me why I should do things your way. You can try to tell me how it impacts your work (not your feeling of frustration, but your work) — “It’s going to take me an extra day to get reports done because I have to wait for X to respond about Y because it’s not something I can access on my own.” And then I get to decide if I’m OK with that. And if I’m OK with it, that’s how it is.

      I’ve worked for bosses that I disagreed with their styles / organization / etc. The solution does sound like it’s looking for a position that’s a better fit for you long-term (and I would agree something with more structure would probably be better for you). But I would also say, in the meantime, think more along the lines of how you can adapt to be less annoyed by Missy, rather than how to change her. If you can let go of your idea of efficiency and just work day by day (privately rolling your eyes at Missy) until you find that better fit job, it really doesn’t sound like a toxic or abusive environment. Just disorganized.

      Sorry. I know it’s not what you want out of the situation. Just the other point of view.

    17. Yorick*

      The bottom line is that you can’t have a meeting with your boss and lay out what you want her to change about how she communicates with you. Especially in this situation where there are only 2 employees in her small business. These are things that you’re going to have to figure out a way of dealing with, even though they bother you. In some cases, you can have a conversation with her – that focuses on how you can best meet her expectations and preferences. Other than that you just have to do what she wants until you can find another job.

      This is most notable with #1. You absolutely cannot meet with your boss and tell her that she didn’t handle hiring/onboarding correctly. It’s not your job to evaluate her performance.

    18. RagingADHD*

      Missy sounds like a very concrete, in-the moment thinker, rather than an abstract, process oriented thinker. So I think you will get the best possible results by breaking these apart and addressing them separately instead of having a big talk to cover them all. She will tune out long before you’re done with your list.

      I think your best “targets” for change are #3 and #6. And I think your best approach will be to present a possible solution in a very concrete way. When you tell someone like Missy, “this is a problem you need to solve,” you are giving her a mental task she doesn’t want to do, to solve a problem she isn’t personally bothered by.

      Instead, I’d approach this by saying something like, “I wonder if we could try…”

      For example, establishing one physical location to leave email printouts (and status updates, but more on that later). Maybe a file sorter that hangs on her office door? Maybe a cubby near the stairs, or in the main office area? Maybe something with color-coded folders? Or a corkboard?

      I think if you could point to a real spot and say, “What if we made this the place you can always find your emails?” it’s going to go over a lot better than a sit-down talk.

      For #6, I’d suggest telling her (at a separate time) that you have some personal stuff going on, so you won’t be able to be responsive to questions over the weekend. Then ask where she wants you to leave project info if she needs it. (Hey presto – how about in the email spot?)

      For #1, I agree with others that it makes sense to leave this until it’s relevant again.

      For #2, if she’s the owner and he’s her husband, he is a de facto co-owner, especially if he’s consulting on contracts etc. There’s nothing really strange about him dealing with the books or payroll. I get why it feels hinky, but from the co-owner perspective it kind of makes sense.

      For #4 and #5, I sympathize. They sound infuriatiing. But I don’t see anything constructive you can do about them other than come up with self-coping mechanisms, like using notepads or postits to keep track of what you’re doing when interrupted.

      Maybe if you are visibly jotting notes when interrupted and say something like, “oh, one second, I don’t want to lose my place,” it’s possible she might back off slightly. Maybe not – it could go either way. But I’ve seen concrete thinkers adjust to seeing something like this, far more readily than if they are told things.

      These are just brainstorms based on the kinds of things that Missys in my life responded well to. You may have tried some of them before, or if not it’s worth a go.

    19. Navy*

      How much work experience did you have previous to this job? You claim to be a mid-career professional but most of your complaints are about perfectly normal things that happen with small family businesses. Annoying, perhaps, but still within range of normal behavior.

      I get the impression that you either don’t have any prior work experience to speak of, or you’ve been out of the workforce for a very long time, because your expectations are absurdly unrealistic. You’ve been in this position for what, 9 months? And you want us to tell you how to tell your boss how to do her job? ABSURD. You’ve said yourself that this job was a career change for you. If you don’t think you’re learning enough about PR or marketing from this position, then just leave. Go back to school and get a degree in marketing and you might be more marketable yourself.

      In the meantime, you have less than a year of experience *by your own admission*. You have no business trying to boss your boss.

    20. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I plowed through the thread and will stick to small concrete suggestions at the tool level.
      I mentioned Google Docs has built-in speech to text.
      Try keeping your status report in Docs or One Drive where your boss can always access your current work without having to receive an email.
      If you are getting too many after-hours requests, consider if you would be interested in working shorter hours more days–only suggest that if your reaction is overwhelmingly positive.
      Personally I’d rather be temping than working for her…she sounds a lot like someone I did work for, and I was not sorry to be laid off from his piece of chaos.

  9. Yogurt pants*

    Thanks everyone for the support and advice last week. 

    This week was relatively calm. George visited the office. We sat in 3 meetings together and they came around to chat with members of my team (they were all peers a while back and all have a good relationship with each other). I focused on my work. We were invisible to each other. George does not make any effort to reach out or initiate. Every time they come by, they say hello to everyone in my row except me. I’m not broken up about it, it’s just something I noticed. They never did in the first place—it was on us (us being people in the main office) to make George feel welcome and engaged since they work in another office. I learned that they constantly complain to the VP they work closely with that our management plays favorites. (ohh if they only knew!).

    I’m satisfied knowing I put my best foot forward with them and I want to just focus on my work and make sure my team is working successfully.

  10. Weirdest reason for an office closure?*

    Hello AAM! I am one of ~5 people at work today. There was a water main break and basically our entire downtown area is without water. I woke up to mine not working, assumed it was something up with my apartment and took it as a sign I should go work out, only to find that the gym and everything else was closed as well. Our office shut down shortly thereafter, but my gym and office are across the street from each other, so I came in anyway. The other guy on my floor also did the aborted attempt at a gym shower, and we are bad-hair twins today.

    This is all relatively banal (albeit SUPER annoying) and got me thinking that some people have definitely experienced some weird office closures – please share!

    1. No Tribble At All*

      We had an early closing because the nearby junkyard had smoke coming from it. So, a literal dumpster fire.

    2. Another Lawyer*

      I worked in an office in the same building as a bank, and one afternoon the bank was robbed! By the time we heard about it the person was long gone and police were on the scene, but management decided to send everyone home. The person was arrested after a couple hours.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      A squirrel got electrocuted by a transformer and it shut down the building for the entire afternoon.

      Also, water line break will close a high school immediately. Fun fact!

      1. Enough*

        Actually broken water lines will close anything and everything. If there is no water you are violating health laws.

        1. Ada*

          I’d believe that. I’ve done a number of projects related to power outages in the past. I couldn’t count the number of times the cause of the outage was listed as some variant of “squirrel blew up the transformer.”

      3. Kimmy Schmidt*

        I’m in a fairly rural area and we’ve had more than one squirrel related electrical incident in the past year.

      4. emmelemm*

        I had that happen at our old office! Transformer goes POP! Coworker goes out, sees dead squirrel on the ground. Ooops.

        1. Princess Cimorene*

          I’d argue stupid people creating Squirrel walkways and jungle gyms with our wires and lines and need to cut down their trees to build our houses and condos and paving their neighborhoods… nd expecting squirrels not to use them lol.

          Stupid humans.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      We had a transformer for the whole building blow, and it filled the basement with smoke, which seeped into the rest of the building in addition to the power being out. They couldn’t reopen the building until that was repaired, which I think took a couple of days! (I was actually off for a few days after that, so I don’t remember.)

    5. De Minimis*

      I used to work in a small complex in a rural area, which included offices for a couple of federal agencies. E. coli was detected in the water supply, and one of the agencies closed their offices. Seemed odd since it wasn’t like they needed water to do administrative work. My workplace remained open [a medical clinic.] We shut off all the drinking fountains and provided bottled water, and purchased distilled water to be used for patient procedures.

        1. De Minimis*

          I think they supplied hand sanitizer, or else we may have just used the water. I don’t remember.
          I believe it was a very small trace reading, but we were required to turn everything off.

    6. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      My institution closed for a water main break, but we had a faculty recruitment visit that day, so we had to power through the talk and meetings all day with no running water. It wasn’t pretty!

    7. SaraV*

      How about “Should have been an office closure”?

      They were rennovating the second floor of the office building, our office was on the first floor. One of the workers had a long…something…that he was carrying carelessly, and knocked a sprinkler head off. That caused the whole system to go off. We had water coming into our office, which had a lot of specialized equipment, along with the standard office equipment, from the ceiling. Most of it came in ontop of my desk and computer. (Receptionist/office manager) Oh, did I mention this happened after 5p? Luckily, because of what we did, at least one person was always in the office. That one person grabbed my computer tower, popped the case off, and found a fan to dry out the inside of any water. The monitor still worked…until about a month later.

      If memory serves me correctly, I want to say the exact same thing happened one or two days later…sprinkler head knocked off on the second floor…but it was somehow stopped before there was any more damage to other offices.

      1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

        Hahaha, on the list of “should have been”… when I was working fast food, our vent hoods over the fryers stopped working, which filled the kitchen with unpleasant, thick and warm smoke(?) (not technically smoke I don’t think, but like, the vent hoods exist for a reason). They refused to close the store, and were super reluctant to even call someone to take a look because it was Thanksgiving and service calls were gonna be way expensive.

        So, yeah, that’s how I spent Thanksgiving one year XD

    8. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      Oh, and my office closed due to a bad smell – in another building. They refinished the ancient wooden floors in a neighboring building with something that smelled truly vile (but according to the facilities rep, nontoxic), and people got headaches and stomach upset here, a whole building away, and eventually everyone was just sent home.

    9. hermit crab*

      My DC-area office closed for the rest of the day after the 2011 Virginia earthquake! There was actually a local election that day in our jurisdiction, so that was a fun day for the pollworkers/election officials.

      And few months ago, I was in an offsite meeting and the building was evacuated due to a bomb threat… not all that weird, I guess, but certainly out of the ordinary for me (it turned out there were no bombs & everyone was fine). It was kind of entertaining to finish up our meeting on the sidewalk down the street, while we waited to see if we could go back inside.

      1. CTT*

        Ahhh, I remember that earthquake! I think the place I was at probably closed as well? I mostly remember it happening and everyone looking out into the hallway and finally someone just said “…was that an earthquake?” It was so unexpected!

      2. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

        My CT office also closed as a result of that earthquake, but mostly because one of our buildings was not safe and they were afraid the aftershocks would cause damage (????)

        It’s being renovated now, but I’d rather we just tore it down and started over.

      3. CatCat*

        My office basically closed that day because people in my office freaked out (we were given the option to leave for the day). I thought it was odd because I grew up in a place where earthquakes were not uncommon.

      4. The Other Dawn*

        I remember that earthquake. I was driving across PA/OH to go to a Def Leppard concert the following day. I was eating lunch in my car and felt it shake. I had no idea it was an earthquake. I thought it was the wind shaking the car. I only found out later that day it had been a quake.

    10. porpoise driven*

      A really tall wrecking ball crane malfunctioned and the construction company couldn’t guarantee control over it. Everything- including my place of work- in a ball-swinging radius was evacuated/closed.

      3. zora*

        Oh yeah! This wasn’t my building, but some close to my office. One of the cranes on the side of a skyscraper came loose in downtown SF. A lot of nearby buildings had to be evacuated until they resecured the crane. Being SF, it was a busy day on Twitter/Snapchat!

    11. LKW*

      We had an office closure because the city was covered in ice and the power company was afraid they wouldn’t be able to heat residential and commercial concurrently.

      On the opposite side, when a hurricane took out power for much of the area, my office still had power and the company reserved a room in the hotel next door so people could come and get a shower, do laundry, power their phones. They also supplied a pizza lunch in the office.

        1. Fikly*

          So my company recently expanded onto a second floor, and it may be possessed. Or the apocalypse is happening. There has been one disaster after another, from AC going out, to no power, to flooding through the ceiling, to mysterious “possible” puddles. The latest was the ceiling collapsing overnight (so everyone was fine).

          We have recently been allowed back onto that floor, and I was tempted to post a poll on slack for what the next disaster would be, but felt that would be too on the nose or make our office manager cry.

          A few weeks ago the NYFD was at the building because people got trapped in the elevator. I don’t know what is up with this building’s karma, but there needs to be sage burned or something.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            More proof that the hellmouth has moved. Be alert for rampaging squirrels and armadillos.

    13. RabbitRabbit*

      Due to too much water overwhelming the system, my office had “gray water” geysering up through the toilet when I came in, about a foot clearance of the spout over the rim. I was first in by a mile, so I got to run around unplugging computers (got shocked once), pulling file boxes off the floor, and so forth. There were a couple inches of standing water when I was done. I forwarded the phones to the department’s office, went home and threw away my shoes and scrubbed my feet.

    14. Partly Cloudy*

      Two jobs ago, we closed for a couple of hours two separate times because of a gas leak in the building.

      I’ve had days when I wished the office would close due to broken AC (in Florida) but had to keep working in the puddle of my own sweat.

    15. starsaphire*

      Ooo, I had a grandboss one time that tried to NOT close the office after a water issue.

      Long story short: Bottom story of our building was a parking garage. Someone ignored the vehicle-height sign and drove in a camper, and took out a water pipe.

      The Empty Suit in the Corner Office sent out a quick blurb (doing an end run around his admin) saying that the water had been shut off, so if we needed to “go” we could just run across the street to the IHOP.

      His admin, bless her soul, immediately sent out a retraction stating that the management was in fact aware that it was illegal to keep the office open without sanitation facilities, and that if the problem was not fixed within the hour, we could all go home.

      We went home.

      Everything was fine the next day, thankfully, but… y’all can imagine how we felt about the Suit after that.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        I worked at a fitness facility where the water was shut off periodically, because there was a water main service point nearby.

        While legally we had to close, because it is a) illegal to have employees onsite with no restrooms b) illegal to have customers on site with no restrooms c) illegal to have a pool open with no restrooms d) illegal to have a pool open with no showers…we didn’t. Boss kept the place open and directed people to the gas station’s restroom.

    17. Jamie*

      Not an office closure story, but when my office was closed and I was the only one there after a power outage getting the servers back up I ended up spending over an hour looking for baby goose within the walls of my office.

      I kept hearing this high pitched “quack” sound that I was certain was a small goose, duck, or other bird somehow stuck within the walls. I was so concerned thinking of it scared and unable to save itself…pulled some vent covers off and was calling for it (like it would come to me…Idk what I was thinking…)

      Turned out it was the automatic air fresher from the bathroom. Did you know when empty they still go off regularly, but instead of the spray sound it softly quacks like a bird. I know that now.

      5. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yes! I had that happen at our place. Although I didn’t register it as a quack, it was definitely birdlike in my mind. We have twice had birds get into the building through the factory’s delivery bay so it took me a little extra time to figure out what I was hearing.

      6. mdv*

        OMG. This reminds me of the “smoke detector incident” with a roommate long years past. He was on vacation for six weeks (I rented a room in his house), and I slowly went insane from the increasingly loud and frequent chirping of the smoke alarm. It turned out it was hard wired, so I couldn’t figure out why it would be chirping. So I turned off the breakers …. and it went off constantly! until I figured out it was actually the carbon monoxide detector in the hallway.

    18. Bilateralrope*

      I worked security at at office building tasked with keeping everyone out after someone didnt properly turn off the fire hose on the top floor and nobody noticed for a few days because it was over Christmas. 11 floors of soaked carpets.

      No idea why the hose was used in the first place.

    19. fposte*

      I lived in Chicago when somebody poked a hole in the river and flooded the below-surface infrastructure downtown; it closed most of the downtown, trading was shut down, etc.. I had friends and neighbors who got sent home and that was an amusing conversation.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          This reminds me of another should-have-been:

          The May 2009 Southern Midwest derecho (also on Wikipedia — you can look it up) spawned a ton of tornadoes, one of which hit OldExjob. We had no power and the roof was half-ripped off the other building (it was amazing; like a wadded-up gum wrapper the size of a bus) and there was insulation everywhere, but they didn’t send us home.

          Obviously, however, normal work was out of the question. A bunch of people went out and bought tarps to cover the plant roof (they were reimbursed). People kept calling, so I still had to answer the phone. They kept asking why their faxes weren’t going through. They were very sympathetic when I told them we’d been hit by a tornado, except for one woman. She said “Oh. Well when do you think I’ll be able to send a fax?” :P

      2. starsaphire*

        I think that incident made one of the Modern Marvels Engineering Disasters episodes! That was the one with the transportation tunnels under the buildings in the loop, right?

        1. fposte*

          That’s the one! It was right about the same time as a major street became unusable because of a drawbridge failure, and there was a joke about “Chicago, the city where the bridges fall up and the river leaks.”

      3. Eva and Me*

        I was there, then, too! My toxic boss didn’t want to close the office, of course, but once our building announced that the elevators would be shut off at X time, I left. No way was I walking down 22 flights of stairs if I didn’t have to! Boss was greatly overweight and not in good shape, so I guess his plan for himself was to hope the elevators got turned back on by the time he wanted to leave? Also, all public transportation was full leaving downtown, so I walked the 3.5 miles home, and was lucky that was an option.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, my neighbor walked home about 7-8 miles, and of course tons of other people were walking along with him. It was one of those things that couldn’t really have been prepared for.

      4. ThatGirl*

        Oh my goodness, I had never heard about this, thank you. I wonder if my husband (who’s lived around here his whole life) remembers.

        1. fposte*

          One of the early tells that this wasn’t just a water main break was when somebody in the basement of an office building spotted fish in the entering flood. Yeow.

    20. Plush Penguin*

      We’ve had our office closed for water issues before.
      The first time, the workers doing digging for a new building next door cut into the water main. Oops.
      The second time, something broke, and we had a water fountain coming up through the sewer entrance outside the building. I have video of it.
      Then there was… the incident. Our building was first open in December 2012, and this took place in early January 2014. It was cold that day (-20C + windchill). So it’s just after 1pm that day, I made myself a hot chocolate and was going to sit down… and the fire alarm went off. We don’t usually have fire drills in early January, and the building emergency people had no idea what was going ok. Ok, something’s up, so I get suited up in my winter clothing, and grab my purse and phone. I looked at my boots and thought, “Well, we’re going to be back up here soon, I don’t need to change my shoes.” So, I go down the emergency exit and leave at the rear of the building, heading towards the area we’re to gather. Along the way, I look down and see a stream of water. I thought, “Why is there a river going past my feet at -20C?” So I turn to look at the building… and the rear entrance of the building is flooding and spewing water. Apparently this brand new building had pipes built near the exterior wall, and they burst.
      This was a Friday, and I didn’t get my boots back until Monday.

      1. Mama Bear*

        We had a partial building closure because the water cooler for another office in the building leaked. Must have been one that filtered tap water because it was enough to flood the floor it was on, and damage the offices below. Some offices had to be closed and some hallways had the bottom foot or so of drywall removed. For days we had a small army of industrial floor dryers everywhere and some of the kitchens were closed for over a week. The ceiling fell in on the kitchen directly below the leaking cooler.

    21. Out of Retail*

      Not the office I work in, but a different office for my company had to close for a day because the building they work from had a dump truck drive *all the way in to* the Subway on the bottom floor. (They were back in the office the next day, because apparently “dump truck took out front wall” had somehow not compromised the structural integrity of the building?)

      1. Lalaith*

        This didn’t happen to me, but there’s a small shopping center near where my husband works where the entrance is a ramp over a parking area. A semi truck that should not have been there drove over the ramp… and fell through it. The whole shopping center has been closed for *months* because they haven’t fixed the ramp yet!

    22. CupcakeCounter*

      Water main breaks are a super common reason to close offices – I think it is OSHA/Health Department related since toilets and sinks for hand washing require running water.

    23. Cog in the Machine*

      My old office had a few “should have closed” occassions. The AC unit for our side of the building broke down during a heat wave. Last winter, the furnace for our side broke down and stayed down for a week, despite repeated calls to the landlord. (The office isn’t in an area where it’s overly cold, but it’s difficult to work when you walk in the door and can see your breath.)
      Thr worst things are smells! Vandals damaged the fuel tank of our office vehicles on several occasions. The vehicles are parked next to the exterior door, so the entire office smelled like gasoline.
      New office has skunks. It’s fun when they get under the building.

      1. Gumby*

        Work had better air quality than my AC-less apartment then so I was thrilled that we didn’t close.

        The one way to get us out fast is if the internet goes out. Not that it’s dangerous in the office or anything, there is just nothing to do! I mean, maybe you can come up with work to fill a couple of hours but it’s quite limited. It’s only happened once though.

    25. Aurélia*

      So. The building my office is in is HORRIBLY designed. The time the office was closed for two days was due to the server room overheating. The sprinklers went off and flooded the bottom two levels. If that wasn’t bad enough, the uninterruptible power source was interrupted.
      There have been mold issues. Most recently a garbage disposal got backed-up and smelled AWFUL until they fixed it ~two weeks later. The day they fixed it my manager let me go home a bit early b/c I got so pale and woozy.

    26. Jaid*

      The Pope visited my city.

      Wait, was my office closed or did our bosses just let us take PTO without quibbling? Now I can’t remember. I just know I wasn’t there, LOL.

      1. M. Albertine*

        My office closed down because Barack Obama was going to walk through the building to give a speech outside, and Secret Service required the time to sweep for threats.

      2. kible*

        Mr Pope visited my city too (or maybe we’re in the same one, idk), and my work closed cause we were just barely inside the “pope box”. but we just worked from home instead.

    27. KR*

      Not a closure but probably should have been. We had a major blizzard a few years ago in New England. Massachusetts shut down the roads for that storm except for emergency personnel, that’s how bad it was. The state I lived in is much more into personal freedom and did not shut down the roads, so I was one of two or three people working second shift at a Dunkin Donuts. We got various plow trucks, tow trucks, cops, and a trail trimmer through our drive thru. No one else came except for the other unlucky souls who’s supervisors had no regard for their personal safety. What was a 25 min drive took me almost 2 hrs as I drove home on completely unplowed highways in a few feet of snow in a sedan. All for $7.85 an hour. But we got a lot of cleaning done since no customers were out on the roads and got to goof off a bit, so that was cool. Power kept flicking on and off periodically. The storm was so bad it disrupted our supply chain so we ran out of creamer and sweeteners for a few days, half the people didn’t show up the next morning for 1st shift (to the managers credit he went to every one of them and offered to go pick them up in his big lifted truck if they thought they wouldn’t be able to drive in or switch their shift, but they passed on the opportunity and called out anyway), the plow truck hadn’t even plowed the parking lot yet when I got in the next morning because there was so much snow, and all the customers got mad at us because we were running out of things (disrupted supply chain) and busy because we were one of the only places open.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        One December we had 18 inches of snow in one day and my boss at the time called me and told me to stay home. I could totally drive in it, so I could have gone in; I did drive to school to turn in a paper, but I had to dig my car out, lol.

        He had someone plow the parking lot and they piled up all the snow at the back of the lot, where it froze solid in a little mountain that didn’t fully melt until May.

    28. theletter*

      The CEo’s dog chewed up the cable that hooked up our internet. CEO hated people working from home, so we were closed for the day.

    29. voluptuousfire*

      Hurricane Sandy. I worked in Manhattan and all power below 34th street was turned off. I live in one of the outer boroughs so I couldn’t get into the city anyway, but that pretty much shut down out office for a week. The ones that weren’t affected by power outages worked from home.

      1. Llellayena*

        Ah yes. Sandy closed my office for a week shortly after I had started working there…and I was not yet on the emergency contact list. I live close enough to walk to work, so each day I walked over until I ran into someone there who got my name on the list.

    30. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      My office got shut down early once because the construction they were doing on the building was so loud it was giving people migraines. Plus there was some weird chemical smell that just compounded the problem.

    31. A flaw in the system*

      Our building management office in downtown office building called one of the contacts from their list for our office and said there was a bomb threat. We did have a few governmental offices randomly interspersed in the building, like some branch of the IRS, who some people could feel strongly negative towards (although this was the only bomb threat I’d ever heard of). Unfortunately, for whatever screwed up reason, the contact person in our office was a partner who was rarely ever in the office. They did speak with him, explaining the situation, but he never told anyone! We found out from other offices in our building, of course, investigated the reason the information had stalled somewhere, at which point the partner was removed from the list of contacts given to the office of the building.

    32. Former Govt Contractor*

      I live in KY. Aside from the mundane reasons (bad weather, power outages, etc.) we close annually for KY Derby events (the Great Steamboat Race and the parade, both of which take place downtown) and KY Oaks Day. We also closed not long ago for Muhammad Ali’s funeral (procession went through downtown as it visited key spots relevant to Ali’s life).

    33. a*

      I used to work at Marriage Court (where people go for civil marriage ceremonies) in Chicago on Saturdays. The officiants were circuit court judges who had to rotate through Marriage Court approximately once a year – there was a full time judge during the week, but Saturdays, the other judges had to work (3 at a time, for 3 hours in the morning) and they were quite grumpy about it. The Marriage Court is in the basement of the County Building. One Saturday, a sewage pipe burst, and a bunch of water came through the ceiling in the last office, right onto one of the judges. The office didn’t close, but that judge certainly got to leave that day!

    34. twig*

      We SHOULD have closed, but didn’t on two separate occasions at a screen printing shop that I worked at (the place that will forever be my job from hell to compare all other not-so-great-jobs to):
      1. the owner decided to repaint the darkroom and turn it into an office — he painted over the dark pink paint in the room with noxious primer. I got high. not in a good way. my head hurt for 2 days.

      2. about a week later new carpet — with noxious carpet glue. I got high. not in a good way. my head hurt for 2 days.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        We should have closed last winter but didn’t… they moved us out of our area, and promptly began stripping out the 25+ year old carpet. Without putting up plastic dividers. You could SEE the dust in the air across that range of cubicles. Weirdly my side didn’t get the dust but got the reek worse when the new carpet got glued in.
        It was nasty for a lot longer than 2 days because first it was dust, then it was paint, then it was carpet glue… then it was carpet outgassing. They did this in the winter AFTER the holidays instead of before, when the building ventilation could have had a chance to catch up with the fumes for a week’s closure.

    35. Londoner*

      Pavement fire! British infrastructure has not been modernised in ages, so somehow old electricity cables underneath the pavement regularly catch fire. But this one was quite big and by the time they had found someone to switch off the electricity, the gas pipe next to the cables had caught fire and they needed to wait a few days for the gas to just burn off before they were able to fix anything.
      Our office building was closed for two days because they were worried about carbon monoxide having accumulated in the basement, which was a bit silly since most of the basement was a tube station and I think dead commuters would have been noticed.
      The fire fried all electronic systems in the surrounding courts and I had a fun hearing where there was no AC and after the other side and we had come to an agreement we sent the draft consent order to the judge’s private email system, since all court emails were down.

    36. Third or Nothing!*

      We’ve gone home for no A/C, no electricity, no Internet, and for particularly bad thunderstorms on the way (mainly hail and heavy rain). Nothing especially weird, although the frequency with which the building level problems occur might be odd – several times a year!

    37. Lalaith*

      Nothing super weird, but here are a few:

      1) At an office in Midtown Manhattan. There was a small electrical fire in a stairwell and we all had to evacuate, and since we didn’t know what was going on or how long it might take to resolve, we all went home. However, it was on an anniversary of Sept. 11, so while it wasn’t at all related, it had that tinge to it and felt really odd.

      2) Same office. I worked there during Hurricane Sandy. The office itself was fine – it never even lost power – but since I lived in New Jersey, I couldn’t *get* there for several days. All the buses and subways were shut down for a while. And I couldn’t work from home because I had no power there :-P Weirdly, one guy in our office who worked from home frequently decided to walk to the office the day after the storm. *shrug*

      3) I worked at a bank which didn’t like to close for much. If our computers were down or we couldn’t access the internet, we’d still keep going and process transactions later. But at one point the power for the entire street went out, and they actually let us close! (Security is something of an issue if you have no power). We didn’t get to go home, though, we had to wait around to see if the power came back until closing time. And of course there were still customers who wanted to come in :-P

    38. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      At OldJob, we had an early office closure because of cold weather. I thought this was odd because we had heat in the office, the computers and other equipment weren’t affected. So why close?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        For benefit of anyone taking public transit home? To avoid a rash of dead batteries in the parking lot? For fear of the power going out and/or pipes freezing? For anyone whose car might break down on the way home?

        1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

          To “Seeking Second Childhood”-Granted, those are all valid reasons. However, this was in a Major City and we weren’t even closed during a snow storm.

    39. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      We had a fire!
      The fire happened before working hours, and only affected the lobby directly. So they didn’t close the building, and we all still came in. But the smell was *horrific*–not just smoke, but definitely the smell of just like…burnt chemicals or plastic or whatever the security desk had formerly been made of. Finally my boss decreed that this was Ridiculous and decided we could all go home; I don’t know if the rest of the building stayed open. But we did still have to work all the other days after that, even though the smell was still there, if slightly fainter.

      Another time, they surprise-replaced the floor tiles in one of our side-rooms. We’d been asking them to do that forever, but we’d expected a little more warning. The glue smell was atrocious so my boss again made a decree of this being Ridiculous and let everyone go home.

      1. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

        It also floods every time there’s rain, but not bad enough to close. And besides, we need to be there to rescue the poor books.

      2. Toads, Beetles, Bats*

        I do love and value a boss who can recognize the Ridiculous. Such bosses are to be cherished.

    40. M*

      I worked for a particularly toxic and mismanaged NGO for about a year. Every time there was some form of office party – Christmas party, celebrations after a successful fundraiser, etc – the senior management team would get utterly trashed and then send an email to the entire office in the early hours of the morning telling us all that we had part of the day off. How late in the day we were told to come in was dependent entirely on just how drunk they had gotten – the latest I remember was 2:30pm.

      And, to be clear, “we’re giving everyone the morning off Tuesday next week to celebrate [achievement/holiday/whatever]” = lovely. Email at 4am when you have to be up to get to work “on time” at 7:30am and have alarms responsibly set? Not so much a perk.

    41. An Elephant Never Baguettes*

      We’ve had a lot if construction going on around our office building during the last years which means that every couple of months we’ll have to close because they’ve found an old bomb in the ground and our building is in the evacuation radius. The first times we hang around to see if we could go back in the office but by now we just go home – it always takes way longer than they think it will. At this point the weirdest thing is how used to it you become.

    42. anon24*

      What I wish was a closure but was not – our sewage system got destroyed in a freeze/thaw cycle. We had water but were not allowed to use it, so no using sinks or toilets. It was not a quick fix either, we had to get contractor bids, submit them to corporate, get permission from corporate (who were in no hurry because THEY had working bathrooms), then get permission from the township. For 4 MONTHS we got to use portable toilets and a hose to wash our hands. We were so miserable.

        1. anon24*

          This was Pennsylvania. They said it was legal and I have yet to find anything contradicting them. We technically had toilet facilities and running water, so legal.

    43. Tau*

      I have another “should have been an office closure”: ransomware.

      The entire corporate network got wiped out by it. Not only were all computers down for weeks, but the phones and elevators didn’t work either. We were told to try to do our jobs the way we would have in the days before computers and e-mail.

      …I’m a software developer.

      We’d come in in the morning, sit around, attempt to sketch system architecture on paper, twiddle our thumbs, play games on our phones… finally at 3pm or so they’d realise that the computers were not, in fact, going to come back online today and tell us that we could go home. But! We should still please come in tomorrow because maybe the IT department would manage to miraculously restore the company network overnight. Rinse. Repeat.

    44. Ed*

      its not weird in the “how odd” sense.. but it is weird that these things are a part of our society and the extent its been normalised… last year my office building got shut down for a couple of days because of a van attack. guy killed 10 people on the sidewalk, injured 16 others. google Yonge and Finch van attack in Toronto if you’re unfamiliar.

    45. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Scary not weird: I was working in Silicon Valley during the Loma Prieta earthquake. (1989, the “World Series” quake.) It hit after working hours, but we weren’t supposed to come again until our buildings had gotten their green/yellow/red rating. My building was a hardhat zone so I went in with a hardhat to retrieve materials and spent the rest of my contract working with whatever I could roll on a library trolley to another building.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Oh man, that was a terrible quake. I moved to Santa Cruz not long after and a year later, you could see people flinch when a heavy truck went by.

    47. dealing with dragons*

      the pump for the toilets quit working. technically I could have walked to the other building but we are allowed to work from home whenever so I peaced out.

      The men working on fixing it (bless their souls) looked like they were in the scene from christmas vacation with cousin eddie.

      sh*tters full!

    48. Fleezy*

      A woman combined some medications that she wasn’t supposed to, passed out while driving and crashed into our orthodontic office, which was full of children at their appointments! Luckily (?) she hit the electrical box in front of our building first, which knocked out our power and set her car on fire, but slowed her momentum enough that she didn’t crash all the way through the wall. She was only mildly injured but super disoriented, and nobody in our building was injured.

    49. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      I was working in downtown Boston when the marathon bombing occurred in 2013. Our office let out early that day because public transportation was obviously a nightmare. Amazingly, I happened to bike to work that day…

    50. Quake Johnson*

      Not a full on closure, but one time I was working in a store and somehow 1/4 of the stores power went out. Everyone else was fine but the bakery and dairy area was completely dark and those employees were just twiddling their thumbs for a while.

      Then when the electrician came, as he was working on the wires some lady was just zipping erratically around the parking lot and ended up smashing right into the electrician’s van. So then we had to call the tow truck.

      It was a weird day.

    51. Elizabeth West*

      Not a closure, but one that should have happened. While I was still at OldExjob, we had a winter storm hit right around closing time one day. The weather forecast was spot on, so we all knew it was coming. Well, the general manager was not inclined to let us go early even though we all pointed out that it would probably be safer (the plant people had all left at three pm, but the office stayed open until five).

      Five o’clock rolled around, and so did a massive amount of sleet. We were in an industrial park with ONE main entrance/exit. I lived a normally fifteen-to twenty minute drive (at rush hour) from work. That night, it took me TWO AND A HALF HOURS to get home. Half of that was just inching out of the park along with everyone else whose employers didn’t let them go early, plus all the semi-trucks!

      We were not happy campers. The next day was still a bit icy, and out of spite, I took my time getting to work.

    52. StarHunter*

      Random office closures at one job I had:
      – Raccoon fried itself on the mill’s 3 phase power transformer. Lights out for the offices, the mill, and the raccoon.
      – A piece of equipment caught fire in the mill. (Got to actually use the evacuation plan.)
      – The scariest was someone was digging near a phone pole next to the mill and hit a gas main. Whoosh, boom, pole on fire and lights out.

    53. Scout Finch*

      We had a horrible derecho (google Hurricane Elvis) that wiped out power to over 300,000 homes. Many were without power for the better part of 2 weeks. Cell towers were down – only land lines worked reliably. Had to drive to AR for ice for the cooler.

      Our office was out of power for about 3 days – we got a generator going until municipal power was restored there about 10 days in. Getting to work was wild – traffic signals were out for a good while. My home power was out for 10 days.

      Saddam Hussein’s sons were killed that day, so it never even made the national news.

    54. nym*

      We are an agency that investigates disease outbreaks. We had a norovirus outbreak onsite, which prompted both closing the building and being investigated by a sister agency. Those of us that weren’t sick, laughed. Those of us that were sick… many years later, laughed.

    55. nym*

      Not a full-on closure, but affected parts of three floors: someone on the top floor had stopped up a sink with paper towels and left the water running over the weekend; we came in Monday morning to find the ceiling of the floor below collapsed, and the ceiling of the floor below that not collapsed but bowing and mushy-looking. So we got to work from home for about two weeks while all three floors got a quick cleanup and repair job.

      That was obviously malice, not accident. And the room with the sink in it was keycard-access only, so security made real short work of prosecuting the perpetrator.

  11. a small success story*

    I wanted to share a success story I had this week during a phone screen, thanks to AAM.

    I applied for a “senior” job that I would not have normally applied for, because a friend who works at the company sent it to me. I wouldn’t have applied to it because I don’t have any official/professional certifications or degrees in this field, I don’t consider myself “senior,” and the company is a very large international corporation.

    As I researched, I was most worried about the salary question. I’m underpaid at around 45k, and through my research, I felt like the highest number I could reach would be something like 62k (which was already a stretch, but that’s some impostor syndrome for another post). I was hoping that he wouldn’t ask what my current salary is, because I knew that would be shooting myself in the foot.

    So he asked, “What are your salary expectations?” And thanks to a commenter from a previous Ask a Manager post, I had a script ready. I said something like, “Since this is my first step outside a small company, I’m not sure where the market is at. So would you tell me your budget first?” A little clumsy, but at least I said it.

    And he said “Sure.” (!) And he said the base salary would be 80-90k. (!!!) Okay, now I know it’s probably way beyond my current level, but at least I didn’t disqualify myself by suggesting an out-of-touch salary point. He said that a good fit was more important to them than experience, so I’m taking that as a sign that he didn’t toss my resume into the garbage right away and I decided to move forward in the process as much as I can, taking it as a learning experience.

    So THANK YOU to AAM and the commenter whose name I didn’t write down. Without reading this site religiously for the past few years, I wouldn’t have had the courage or even known it was an option to flip the question like that.

    3. rayray*

      Thanks for sharing! That’s a great way to get around that question because it can be awkward when you have no idea what the possible range is.

    5. Blarg*

      That’s great language … I’m in a similar boat but more “moved from rural tundra to major metro area” and don’t know what salary is normal. Nice work!

      1. On Hold*

        I used it in my last phone screen (“actually, I’m going to turn that around and ask what you have budgeted for the position?”) and it went over just fine.

  12. EPLawyer*

    URRGGHH. My husband just returned to work after being off on disability for a non-work related injury. He communicated appropriately with HR and his benefits were fine. He did not tell his supervisors any details of how the injury occurred. He returned to find out said supervisor had been spreading rumors about the how the injury occurred. Nothing bad, but still not his business to be telling people not affected by my husband’s absence anything let alone making up stories.

    Not the first time this guy has been a problem. I really wish my husband would get another job. But he says the pay and benefits are too good.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Argh, that’s obnoxious. But I see why your husband doesn’t want to switch jobs over it. If I switched jobs every time someone was just obnoxious and not overly malicious or harming my status in the company, I would never stay anywhere that long =X

  13. Professional Development*

    How much time do you spend on “personal” professional development, meaning skills and knowledge for your marketability and not just what you need to do your current job? Does your job allow you time during the work day to do it?

    I’m struggling to find a balance of how much I can realistically keep myself up-to-date and still have a life. My field can be overwhelming.

    1. Angwyshaunce*

      Whenever all of my work projects are in a holding pattern, I spend time learning or improving skills. This happens on average probably five days a month. I am usually able to apply these skills to create tools or better technology that directly benefits the company, so they seem fine with this.

      I am also fortunate to have overlap between my favorite hobby and what I do professionally, so whether I learn at work or on my own time, it benefits both. (This also makes it easier to do on my personal time, since I enjoy doing it.)

    3. Zombie Unicorn*

      A few hours a week. It’s allowed during the work day but hard to carve out time. I have a new manager who’s been talking about scheduling protected personal development time into our calendars which would be great.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      I’m very fortunate that I’m in a brand new role to my company, so I can pretty much create my own tasks because I don’t have a ton of time sensitive work outside of editing technical proposal drafts (which are kind of slow right now). Therefore, I do a lot of professional development during work hours – in fact, I’m watching training videos right now, lol. When I did work in a role that was more structured, I had to do a lot of my professional development outside of work hours. I’d set aside an hour or two a night to study for a designation exam and do a couple hours on the weekend as well.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      My employer has 40 hrs education every year as a goal for every employee. We can do this during the workdays, and they encourage managers to make sure we have time during workdays for it. They do schedule some required classes (4 – 12 hrs/year), but other than that, it’s our choice. So my Stats class last year, and the SQL class the year before, both counted, though only SQL was relevant to my current work. I don’t include all my non-fiction reading, but if I spend time reading current political moves around tariffs, I will record that.

      Nursing and teaching both require continuing ed too – I saw ’20 hrs / year’ for nurses, and ’35 hrs / year + 2 formal courses every 5 years’ for teachers.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        (ps: though upper mgmt does encourage managers to make sure there’s time, it has not actually driven any reduction in my workload…)

    6. NACSACJACK*

      My manager made it a direct order that I am to let our offshore resource do more of the work and I am to spend a good portion of my day learning new skills. It hasn’t balanced out well due to our work but I am enjoying that opportunity today! Woo hoo!!

      Having said that, though, my place is not known for letting the general staff learn new skills on the job, just the favored sons and daughters. We have Gen Y/Gen Zs, who go home at night and study new skills. I already spend 8 hours a day on a computer, why would I study stuff after hours unless I can use it to get extra pay or get on a team developing in that skillset? (Gen X here).

    7. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      I recently tussled with my employer over this, asking if the company would pay for me to take an online course during work hours that would directly contribute to my capabilities at work and result in a certificate. I timed it during the quietest season for our business and so I was able to keep up with my usual workload.

      It was initially received as if I was asking for a huuuuuge personal favor, but it was basically their jumping off point for negotiation. I made the case that professional development is a benefit offered by many employers and that it’s a great way to keep employees engaged, motivated, and fresh in their field. Ultimately the company paid for the course, we set a cap on how many hours per week I could spend on it during work hours, and we agreed that if I left the company sooner than a year after completing the course, I would repay the cost prorated. I’m pretty happy with how we worked it out.

    8. Alex*

      I spend probably about 8-10 hours a week outside of work doing that, but I think that’s probably above average. I really want to develop some skills to move to a different branch of my field.

      It is not expected that I would take time to do that during work hours–even if the training is requested by my company, they expect it done on my own personal time. However, I don’t feel bad doing some of it if I have a bit of down time during the day, which I sometimes do.

    9. Thankful for AAM*

      Oddly, my workplace limits us to 6 hours a year of prof dev; this is free webinars we find on our own. They also occasionally have some required training, maybe 3 gours a year.

  14. Pieska*

    Question about interview clothes- is a black suit too formal if the dress code will be business casual on the job? I’m a woman if that makes a difference, and this would be corporate but not conservative. I have a friend in the same industry who said business casual was fine when she interviewed, but that was at smaller, startup type places. So I probably need to dress up a little more, but I don’t want to overdo it! Any advice?

    1. Teapot Compliance*

      Do you mind mentioning what industry? I’ve found the answer to be really dependent on region and industry.

        1. theletter*

          I think you’ll be fine with the black suit. Healthcare analytics can have it’s ‘casual’ side, but your clients might be hospitals, and will appreciate formality and polish.

          2. Artemesia*

            I know health care businesses where people (including consultants) are not allowed to wear jeans on premises. I know a consultant who was fired for violating this norm. Health care is not notoriously casual. I’d wear the suit with a colored blouse, and scarf. Being a little more formal during the interview than once working is common anyway. If you were in software in California it would be different of course.

        2. Jaydee*

          You’ll be fine in the suit. The Midwest tends to be a little more conservative in general when it comes to employment norms. Business casual probably reflects the fact that no one expects you to own and wear suits on a daily basis. But owning one black suit and wearing it to the interview will seem nice and professional.

          But also feel free to wear a brighter or patterned top or to accessorize a little more casually than you might if you were interviewing for, say, a larger law firm or a financial services firm or something like that.

    2. CTT*

      I always err on the side of overdress for an interview, especially for a corporate position. Do you have a more colorful blouse you could wear with the suit instead of white/light blue?

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          That will definitely work to loosen you up a bit if you go with the suit option. Another suggestion I was coming to make was that you wear a cardigan with the suit pants – it’s still a nice, tailored look, but not too formal. A colored blazer can also help to dress you down for a more business casual approach.

      2. Mbarr*

        Agreed. Err on the side of caution. I don’t have a coordinating suit, but I always have my jacket on, but I keep it unbuttoned. Then I have a simple shirt/blouse beneath it. (My current fave has subtle black penguins on it.)

        2. Parenthetically*

          Love that. Subtle patterns on dress shirts make me think of Michelle Pfeiffer in One Fine Day who put on her son’s dinosaur t-shirt under her suit because she’d gotten… juice (?) on her original one.

          I have a really cute shirt with a subtle grey-on-grey owl pattern that looks awesome under a cardigan or jacket. It just reads as a texture unless you look really closely.

    3. Pidgeot*

      I’d make sure to wear a nice blouse and then potentially remove the suit jacket (or carry it with me). That will put you firmly in business casual on the nice side, but you can always put on your jacket if you feel under-dressed.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      Do you already own the black suit? If so, I think it’s fine to go with it. It’s business wear. It will not stand out as worth remembering unless you go with full goth accessories. (Healthcare analytics being a field unlike fashion editor, where striking details could matter over unremarkableness.)

      If you were looking for the right interview outfit to buy, I might lean toward trying to get a bit of a poll of what women a couple of levels up from you wear, and maybe the forest green dress is what really builds your confidence while the black suit feels constricting, and you should go with the dress if that’s within the dressy end of local and industry norms. But if you already own this suit, and feel professional and competent in it (the interview version of “comfortable”) I’d just go with the suit. Unless you show up in a prom dress, no one is going to think “That’s too formal for data analysis.”

    5. LKW*

      Do you have a patterned or interesting shirt? A plain shell is going to be staid. A solid button down is going to be formal. A red & white patterned blouse is going to be funky and more casual.

      But there is nothing wrong with being a little formal at an interview.

        1. NotAPirate*

          No neon, but otherwise brights are pretty fashionable right now. If it gives you a headache to stare at it in sunlight it’s too bright is my rule of thumb.

          Prints are fine too. For prints, steer away from clashing colors, so like dark with light polka dots, or yellow+white, blue+grey etc, is cool but bright green with pink flowers is more iffy. Your jacket will tone down whatever you wear.

          Solid colors are fine too.

          Good luck in your interview!

        2. LKW*

          I work with a lot of pharma clients including mid-West. Healthcare Analytics – if with a start up – funky is fine. If with a Pharma company – funky should be fine. If with a healthcare company like a hospital network… I’d go more formal.

          1. Sunflower*

            I disagree – I work in pharma healthcare analytics on the west coast (I’ve been at multiple pharma companies) and “funky” would not be fine. A black suit with a bright colored or patterned shirt would be great. A sheath dress with a blazor would be great. I usually wear grey slacks with a black shirt and black suit jacket which has always been fine. So OP, your plan is great!

        3. Windchime*

          I interviewed in healthcare analytics three years ago, and I wore black slacks, a print shell (black, royal blue and white) with a royal blue knit blazer-type thing. It’s not really a blazer but it’s fitted and I think it has a zipper. This was in Seatttle. When I was called back for a second interview, I wore the same black slacks, a burgandy print shell and I think a cardigan of some type. I did get the job. Day to day dress code was business casual until just a few weeks ago, and now we are allowed to wear nice jeans.

          Hope this helps!

    6. hermit crab*

      I wore a black suit to interview at my current job, which is super casual (I’m currently wearing jeans, a fleece, and hot pink sneakers). I wore a brightly colored top underneath the suit. Seemed fine! I am based in the DC region, but the interview was at our national nonprofit’s midwestern office.

    7. Joielle*

      In a similar situation, I’ve worn the jacket from a black suit with a different color pencil skirt and rolled the jacket sleeves up a bit. It was dressier than what the interviewers were wearing, but not embarrassingly so.

      If you do decide to wear the whole suit, I’d go for a more casual shirt underneath – something colorful, or with a pattern. Or funky jewelry!

    9. Dr. Anonymous*

      I think the suit is fine but some blazers look good over a fairly “businessy” dress and that may strike the balance you are looking for.

  15. Email vent*

    Just a vent today: People in leadership positions / positions of power need to take more responsibility for answering emails in a timely fashion. I’ve sent several different emails out, to several different people on several different topics, and haven’t gotten a response back. Have followed up–politely! No response.

    I literally can’t move forward without hearing back.

    Answer. Your. Emails.

    Look, I get that you have a lot of things on your plate, but when people are depending on you for their work, you need to acknowledge that and make sure they have what they need to get their work done.

    1. Lizabeth*

      My work is like that too…get mostly crickets on a regular basis.

      What I do is send a “final call” email saying that unless I hear back by x time, this is what will be decided (whatever needs to be answered) in order to keep things moving in a timely manner and meet deadlines.

      As long as it’s politely phrased, I generally get the answers I need. Your mileage may vary…

      1. Swiper*

        This is how I’ve handled it as well, and has been the most effective solution. Only once has someone come back and complained to my boss that they didn’t get a chance to respond. My boss saw the multiple attempts at contact, the very clear message I’d be moving forward with X plan and told the other person that it was too bad and they should stay on top of their email.

          1. Swiper*

            That boss was fabulous and as Dwight mentioned below, I did have her blessing to do this as she was tired of having to get involved every single time to get an answer out of that particular person.

        2. Dwight*

          I think you need your bosses blessing for this type of approach. This could very well backfire. I’m not defending the lack of response from leadership, but sometimes the input is more important than getting the product out on time.

      2. Angwyshaunce*

        This is a great tactic that I use as well. If I don’t get answers, I simply pick the course of action myself and tell them to let me know if they want it done differently.

    3. Alianora*

      A lot of senior people at my workplace (including our HR person) basically have to be tracked down in person to get a timely response. It’s frustrating. I already try not to send them email if at all possible, but sometimes I need them to look at a legal contract or reply to someone else’s email inquiry.

    4. Mbarr*

      I circumvented this at Old Job by doing some of the following:
      – Put “Action required” in front of the subject line
      – Use Outlook to add a reminder to the email for the recipients. I put the reminder at odd times like 9:17am because too often, managers are in meetings and dismiss reminders. This way there’s a chance the meeting might be over.
      – Depending on the length of the email:
      – put the actions required at the top of the email (and list what actions/answers are required, and who needs to answer them)
      – Put a summary of the reasons driving the email after the Actions required section.
      – As someone else suggested, reply to all the day before your email is due and say, “If I don’t get a response by tomorrow, we will proceed with X.” or something to that effect.

      1. Artemesia*

        Very important for the action item to be in the first couple sentences and not at the bottom like some O’Henry mystery. All this is good advice including Action Needed in the header.

      2. designbot*

        Love these practical tips! Another one I do is use their name at the beginning of the email when they are the specific person I require a response from. This is because most in management are CC’d on a ton of emails, most of which will be responded to by someone else. But when they see their name in the preview line they key in to the fact that they are the specific recipient as opposed to one of a whole team.

    5. Aggretsuko*

      This is how my personal life is going lately. I’m trying to arrange several trips and not hearing back from almost all people (except the ones I can pester in person, but I don’t see everyone on a regular basis any more and that’s a problem) and I’m just annoyed. I’m about ready to say “fuck y’all, I’m going alone.” I did say something along the lines of, “If I don’t hear from you, I assume you’re not interested and will trouble you no more” on the last trip because I plan on going regardless of whether or not anyone else wants in my car.

      The other one involves ticket buying and I was ALMOST there and then heard “oh, someone else wants to go….” and I haven’t heard back about THAT one yet either. Come onnnnnnnnnnn, people. It’s a limited space, I told you this. I don’t want everyone to be all “I’m in” and then can’t GET in.

      As for work, I have to wait for high muckety mucks to approve things quarterly and most of the time they go past the deadline, which is a joy. I can’t nag them too much though, they hate us already.

    6. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I know how you feel. Especially when some decisions have to be made. If I don’t get an answer from the person via email, I’ll make a phone call. if I get the voice mail and a decision MUST be made, I will make an “Executive Decision” and let the chips fall where they may.

    7. LLG612*

      Yeah. This is how my board is. Infuriating. And I just got chastised for politely asking for clarification on when I might expect communications in the future.

    8. kittymommy*

      Wait, am I Ambien-venting on AAM and not remembering????? Hmm…

      Seriously, +1-effing-million. Also, do something with the calendar invitations! Call me, text me, anything, I don’t care. Just don’t make me guess as to whether or not you’re going to show up to an event depending on mood-of-the-day.

    9. NW Mossy*

      As a leader I try really hard to stay on top of my stuff and answer people timely, but I don’t always succeed. I’ve got 13 direct reports across 3 different teams, so just keeping on top of my core priorities is a lot right now. Here are the tips I’d give to folks in my org on Emailing Leaders Well:

      * Know that your email is competing for the leader’s time and attention against the hundreds of others they receive each day. Many of us are included on aliases that reach our teams, our processes, and our projects, so the inbox balloons FAST; doubly so when we’re in meetings where we need to be paying attention, not emailing and half-listening. Teach me that your emails are important by only including me when you truly need action; if you blitz me 10 times a day with low-content thanks emails, misdirected inquiries, and needless cc’s, you’re teaching me to ignore most of what you send. If you can get peers to do the same, all of you can benefit from the reduction in email overload for your recipients.

      * Make it easy on your recipient. I love emails where I need less than a minute to answer (“I approve,” “Sounds good, I’ll let Fergus know”), so see if you can tailor your email for a quick answer. If you do that for me, I will remember your thoughtfulness and pay it back by responding promptly. Also, get a sense of your recipient’s schedule so that you can calibrate your expectations accordingly. Expecting a quick response from a frequent traveler isn’t fair to them and frustrating for you, as is emailing someone during their off hours.

      * Know when to make it a meeting/phone call/chat instead. One quick way to tell is if you’re spending more than 15 minutes writing the email – if you’re spending that long setting up the topic, it’s too much, especially given how many leaders check emails on their phones with their tiny screens. I’ll gladly spend 5-10 minutes talking to you to avoid having to spend 30 figuring out what the heck is going on from your forward of a string 10 deep with “what should I do?” at the top. If you work with a leader often, a standing meeting can be a great holding pen for all those non-urgent things you’d normally email.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        Agree with all these points. One reason everyone knows to email me if they need a reply from BossMan is because he *reads my emails*. Partly at this point because they are from me, but also because I am super direct (and short!) about what I need from the email. It’s not unusual for the subject line to be something like “Can you get me your bio edits today?” [email has the attached bio]. Random “thanks” emails almost never come from me and I deliberately remove him from all scheduling emails etc. that he looped me into: the whole reason he sent them over to me is to keep his email from having 8 emails about scheduling that he doesn’t need to look at at all. And when I haven’t gotten replies on important emails, I pick up the phone (after checking to make sure he’s not in a meeting). (And non-urgent stuff definitely goes into our regular catch-up time.)

        When he left the previous firm, I was tasked with finishing sorting his emails – despite what I know was a significant amount of work he put into reviewing his inbox and filing into client-specific folders for records purposes in the lead up to his leaving, he still left me with an inbox of over 40 THOUSAND emails to sort and file. When I followed him to CurrentJob, I had an even stronger understanding of why he appreciated me following up and chasing him on certain emails!

      2. Lana Kane*

        I am co-signing this as well. I have 12 reports and 3 teams now, but very recently I had 19 reports and 4 teams. I absolutely try my best but I don’t spend all day looking at my email, and in order for me to keep up that is what I’d need to do. Truth is, email is becoming one of the least efficient ways for me to communicate because of the sheer volume I and others get.

    10. AmethystMoon*

      I agree 100%. Have a job where we’re required to ask questions if anything is remotely uncertain and we would get chastised/written up if we didn’t. So, I ask the questions and people don’t respond. If e-mail doesn’t work, I try phone, and vice versa. Still get crickets a lot of the time, and it irks me to no end. Then in my review, I get told I try too much xyz. Well, since we’re required to ask and not assume, and we would get in really big trouble if we assumed and it was incorrect, I basically have no choice but to ask. So, yeah.

  16. 0_0*

    TL:DR – Is it reasonable to ask my employer to bump my hourly wage or provide some other sort of compensation/benefit if I drop out of their health insurance?

    Full info: I was recently added to my husband’s health insurance plan through his employer, and at the moment our family of three is covered by both of our employers. This past year after raises were issued, I received a ‘total compensation worksheet’ which included my hourly wages but also assigned dollar values to my paid time off, short and long term disability insurance, 401k, etc. It provided a dollar amount for the medical insurance the company pays on my behalf, which is not insignificant (over $10k). Can I ask to be taken off the insurance plan in exchange for a higher hourly wage/more paid time off/more money in my 401k?

    I’m not trying to be a pill about it but I think if my employer is claiming that this is part of my total compensation and I should be aware of it and think of it as such, it’s fair to ask for this shift in how my compensation is paid out.

    What say you?

    1. Lucille B.*

      If your husband loses his job and you go back on company insurance, are you going to ask them to give you a pay cut?

      1. 0_0*

        Lucille, I don’t really expect my husband to lose his job (he’s been at his company 10 years and is well loved there)… BUT if he did then yes, I would expect that whatever agreement had been worked out w/r/t changing my benefits allocation would revert back if we suddenly needed health insurance through my employer again.

      2. College Career Counselor*

        I see your point, but sometimes companies will give you an (admittedly not equivalent) additional sum if you do NOT use the company benefits. Not sure whether that is then taxed as bonus income, OR if it becomes part of your regular salary.

        1. 0_0*

          This employer’s health insurance plan is above and beyond typical employer-offered plans. $1 paid per year by the employee and then the employer covers *everything* else except for co-pays. Like I said, it’s a not insignificant amount that the employer pays up front and they have griped about the cost a few times, trying to curry favor and make us feel indebted to them.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            WOW. If that’s in the US, that is a cadillac plan and yeah, $10K is about the right benefit; from my experience with my employer, that’s $4K – $7k of premiums that each employee is not having to pay. I would feel some debt about something that nice.

            If you are in the US, you might be able to get an increase in pay through an employer donation to a Health Savings Account (HSA). You could ask your employers if they would be willing to do the HSA as a second insurance option for employees. You or the employer can put money into an HSA account and use it for either current health costs (prescriptions, co-pays, glasses) or save it, tax free, like a 401K.

            My family switched to an HSA three years ago to save up for orthodontia, and my employer puts in about $1K / year per person to incentivize employees to use it. We have to do more paperwork, but we’re coming out with $4K / year more net income tax free, with $3K of that saved in the HSA and getting reasonable interest. I was nervous at first, but we’re up to $10K and it covers catastrophe (defined, essentially, as anything over $8K), so I now look at it as a way to increase retirement savings without much increase in current risk. (coverage: 45ish yo me, spouse, 1 minor child, mild long-term conditions, no smoking and regular exercise) Employees without coverage elsewhere would need to make sure the insurance does include catastrophic. I do not recommend it for people with lots of health problems, but it’s great for people who only need to see a doctor 2 – 3 times / year.

            1. 0_0*

              Yep, in the US. It’s unheard of (and the actual amount is a few thousand higher but I don’t want to get too specific here). But no dental, haha.

            2. Natalie*

              You can only enroll in an HSA if you are also enrolled in a high deductible health plan, which is doesn’t sound like this is.

              1. 0_0*

                It actually IS a high deductible health plan, but anything that goes to deductible gets paid out by the company’s pooled HSA which is funded entirely by the company. Not sure if I’m wording that correctly but hopefully you get the idea.

                1. Jules the 3rd*

                  Hunh – I was assuming that the company would have to start a new health plan option (which they may not be interested in). I also assumed that savings to the company would be mainly in the premiums.

                  If you’re already in a high deductable plan, the company value is going to be mostly in the HSA pool (probably averaged over all the employees), not the premiums, so you opting out isn’t going to save them much. I don’t think ‘hey, can I get a person HSA instead of participating in the group one, and can you put $x into it’ would go over well. That’s money that they would otherwise not spend.

                  With this new info, I think ‘pls provide a cash benefit to replace the insurance benefit’ would be a risk I would not take. There’s room for this to look like you taking money away from your coworkers and their HSA pool benefit. It’s not what would really be happening, but it could look like that. It would also open the door to ‘I didn’t use any health care / consume any part of that HSA this year, can I get money for that’ from other coworkers, and your employer is not going to want to do that.

                  Practical side: The amount your company doesn’t spend without you is premiums, which are small (like, $1K – $2K/year) and deductable, which will vary a lot from person to person. Unless you want to share, in detail, how much of the deductable you used, you can’t show the company how much less they’ll be spending. And I would *not* be willing to have my company that far into my health records for any amount of money.

          1. Natalie*

            Yes, it has to be. As a general rule, all money you receive from your employer under any circumstances is subject to income taxes (at normal income tax rates, there’s no special “bonus tax”) unless it’s specifically exempted. Certain benefits are exempted provided they meet various rules, but not any cash your paid in lieu of using the benefit.

          2. Clisby*

            In my opinion, any health insurance benefit an employer pays should show up in the W2 and should be taxed as income. It’s part of the compensation package. It’s part of the weirdness of the US system that this doesn’t happen.

            1. JeanB in NC*

              It’s not income to the employee. It’s an expense on the part of the employer. Do you really want to get taxed on another 5 or 6 thousand per year?

              1. CPA Liz*

                Unless your tax rate is 100% (and is is not) any increase in taxable income would still be a net increase after taxes! Please compare- 10,000 value insurance coverage which is of no benefit to you or 5000 after tax cash you can spend or save- or contribute to a retirement plan with no current taxation- which would you rather have? Taxes increasing means income is increasing more.

    2. Natalie*

      No, this really isn’t a thing. For one, the company can’t stop you from re-enrolling if something happens to your other coverage, or if you just feel like it next open enrollment, and most companies aren’t going to assume you’ll cheerfully accept the pay cut or whatever it was they were giving you.

      More generally, not every employee uses every benefit, and they’re not going to give anyone else cash because they won’t make use of the dependent care FSA or the transit pass or whatever. That’s just how benefits work.

      1. Jamie*

        This is exactly why no place would ever give me more money because I didn’t use benefits – because they can’t keep you from enrolling at a later date and no one wants the pay cut conversation.

        1. 0_0*

          My boss has been known to cut under the table deals… for better or worse. :-/ I can imagine approaching him with this and having me write up an agreement that if I ever needed back onto the plan, I would forfeit whatever other compensation we’d worked out.

    3. Nacho*

      No, that’s definitely not reasonable. People opt out of health insurance all the time, mostly for the exact same reason as you. It’ll look seriously out of touch with the business norms to ask them to compensate you for doing so.

      1. 0_0*

        Fair and understood.

        On the other hand, is it not seriously out of touch for an employer to provide their employee with a dollar amount of their ‘total compensation’ where (making up numbers here) they say to the employee: your annual wages are $45k, but with all the other benefits your “Total Compensation” amounts to $68k.

        I guess what I’m saying is that it struck me as odd when I received that form last year, and for the company to take that stance I don’t think they should be shocked for an employee to turn around and says ‘can we shift the allocation of those benefits?’

        1. Joielle*

          I don’t know if I’d call it “out of touch,” since it seems like a lot of companies do it. But I do think it’s kind of eye-rolly, and (I’m guessing) an attempt to make you feel better about being underpaid. They can say your “total compensation” is whatever they want, but when it comes down to it, your salary is $45K (or whatever) and that’s what you’d be comparing to the market if you were to look elsewhere… since presumably other, higher-paid positions also offer benefits.

          1. 0_0*

            Majorly eye-rolly. When my boss gave me the form, it was accompanied by a 15 minute lecture on why I was being naive and short-sighted to not be putting more money in my 401k. I had literally just enrolled and allocations were set to begin shortly so it was wasted breath.

        2. Lucette Kensack*

          It’s very normal for employers to show employees their “total compensation,” but I agree with you that it’s tone-deaf. I don’t care how much you pay for my health insurance; it’s not money that I see, so it’s not a part of my compensation. (Like, am I supposed to be more grateful for the extra $5,000 they spent if they did a bad job negotiating their contract with the insurer?)

          1. 0_0*

            Exactly my point. I’ve declined employer sponsored health insurance in the past without any sort of negotiation for the money saved by the company… but putting a number value on it and harping about how extraordinarily generous it is and how I should consider the $$$ attached to this benefit, changes things for me.

        3. ThatGirl*

          No, at least not in my experience, I got a similar “total compensation” rundown every year from my last job — it was a big Fortune 500 company and we were self-insured. There is a little element of guilt-trip to it but it’s not really reasonable to expect a company to pay you more for going without.

          1. Clisby*

            Agreed – but what should happen is that the people who do use the insurance should have to pay income taxes on whatever part the employer provided.

    4. Jess*

      Nope.

      It’s pretty common that not every employee will make use of every benefit offered. Also, the benefit is not just receiving the health insurance, but having the option to receive it if your husband’s situation changes.

      There might be some situations in a -really- small organization where you could negotiate around this when hired, but generally not.

    5. RussianInTexas*

      This isn’t really about your situation, but I have an amusing story related to this. My dad and my step-mom used to work for years for the same huge corporation (completely different divisions, but still). The company would give a bonus to everyone who did not utilized their medical benefits.
      So my dad would get a family plan that covered everyone, and my step-mom would not elect to get a medical plan and would get a bonus.
      They told about this to their benefits specialist and the reply was “we don’t care, we don’t have a system option set up for this kind of situation”.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m surprised that so many people say this isn’t a thing. Many employers actually put some (or all?) of what they would have contributed toward your insurance into a flexible spending account for you to use instead. It wouldn’t hurt to bring it up. A small to medium employer who needs to keep their numbers up in order to get better rates probably wouldn’t consider it an option, but a large employer might already be doing it (Mr. S’s employer did it for a couple of years before we even knew about it).

      1. Elizabeth Proctor*

        I get $350/mo for opting out of my employer’s insurance. They otherwise contribute about $1000 (small nonprofit so their insurance is very $$) to people who opt in. We pay a $100/mo surcharge to put me on my husband’s because I do have employer sponsored coverage available to me.

      2. Dana B.S.*

        Never actually heard of this, it’s a cool concept. I have only heard of paying the employee a certain amount for opting out.

        The thing I think most people think is unreasonable is that OP is asking to have it be added on as a raise, not a separate payment. Which is entirely different. Even in the grand scheme of a total compensation statement – it’s more like “you’re missing out on our wonderful benefits if you don’t take advantage of this!”

        1. 0_0*

          If you go back and read my original comment, I’m not asking it be added on as a raise, I’m saying is there some other way to receive that monetary benefit that’s not having double health insurance coverage. I’d be 100% happy with it being a separate payment.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          In the US, look into Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). A lot of employers are using them as alternates to traditional accounts.

          Having now done both, I do more labor under an HSA, keeping track of the payment card and / or using it to pay bills when they come in, instead of having insurance pay it all for us. Deductables are *much* higher ($8K instead of $2K), but coverage above that $8K is similar. Individual charges are similar (ie, preventative care is free, an office visit is $100), but now I pay for the office visit from my HSA instead of the insurance company paying it. But, I’m only paying $200/mo, and then putting $200/mo into savings, instead of paying an $800/mo premium. So, I get the benefit of having the big company negotiate for me, but pay for actual health care consumed.

          I’d say it works ok for basically healthy people, but I wouldn’t recommend it if you’re not pretty healthy or are not well organized. It has, as predicted when people talk about this option, caused me to use less health care.
          – I try to lump issues together and cover 2 – 3 in one visit.
          – I have opted out on PT for hip tendonitis, trying to look online for good exercises

    7. Emily'smom*

      I would absolutely ask. We do this is my business ( Medical practice). If an employee opts our of our health insurance and has documentation that they are covered by another health plan, we give them around $2,000 for the year. It isn’t considered a pay raise or a bonus. I think it is very reasonable since they just saved us $7-8,000 by not enrolling inour helath care plan

      1. CheeryO*

        I work for a large state, and same thing here. Everyone jokes about getting a pay cut when they turn 26. I am confused by everyone acting like this is unheard of.

    8. Lucette Kensack*

      Noooooooo.

      Think about it: If they paid more salary to people who decline the company-provided healthy insurance, they would be paying higher salaries to married people (who have access to their spouses’ insurance), young people (who have access to their parents’ insurance), and healthy people (who can go without insurance entirely).

      Is that a company you want to be a part of? I sure wouldn’t.

      1. 0_0*

        Come on, healthy people can’t go without insurance. We all need preventive care. I get your point but if my hopping off the company insurance is going to put over $10k back in their funds, that seems a very lopsided equation.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          Healthy people go without insurance all of the time. That’s the whole point of the Affordable Care Act insurance requirement; encouraging healthy people (who might otherwise decide to skip insuring themselves) to stay in the insurance market, which makes the overall pool healthier.

          But that’s not the point, anyway. The point is that paying people who decline company-provided health insurance means that the company will be paying higher salaries to certain subsets of people, most of whom are already privileged in the workplace. That’s discriminatory and it’s wrong.

          1. Clisby*

            No – it just has to be computed and paid fairly. Whatever an employer pays for health insurance for an employee is part of that employee’s compensation. So if they’re paying $5000/year for an employee who opts in, and nothing for an employee who opts out, they’re discriminating against the one who opts out. Not only that, they’re paying the opt-in employee $5000 under the table (it’s not taxed).

            It’s completely fair to give some sort of rebate (not salary) to people who don’t use the benefit. Not the total premium amount, because part of the value of employer-provided insurance is that you have a right to it, and in the crazy US system we have, that’s definitely worth something.

        2. Health Insurance is Weird*

          You might actually make their rates go up if you’re young/healthy and raise the average age of the plan. The more healthy people on the plan, the more balanced it is for the “unhealthy” individuals.

        3. LawBee*

          LOTS of healthy people who have to pay into their insurance don’t use company insurance. Their reasoning is generally “I’m healthy, I don’t believe I need an annual checkup because I’ve never been sick, I don’t need benefits for my family (for whatever reason), I don’t take regular medication, the odds of me getting extremely ill or injured are low, and I would rather roll the dice and have those dollars in my savings account/pocket/whatever than through the employer plan with its restrictions.”

          1. 0_0*

            I meannnn this right here is a strong argument for Medicare for All / expanded ACA. What happens is that poor, healthy-ish people who would rather save the money than spend $$$ on health insurance premiums they think they’ll never benefit from, decide to roll the dice.

            But life is unpredictable and sh*t happens. Some of those people inevitably end up in the emergency room and their costs are subsidized by the rest of us who are adequately covered. It’s why hospitals charge stupid costs, like $60 for a single dose of aleve. They need to make up for the folks who show up uninsured but absolutely need medical attention.

            …immaterial to the topic of this comment thread, but, just saying….

          2. ...*

            This is crazy to me! Unless it meant the difference between food and rent OR insurance I would always add insurance. An uninsured driver hits you and you could have 100,000 in medical bills in a day. Yes you could sue and maybe get a tiny bit from them? But most uninsured drivers don’t carry around tons of extra cash that they’ll willingly give up! Like you could find out you have cancer or an aneurism tomorrow! It happens to “young healthy” people ALL the time. I know you didn’t say you necessarily agreed with this position I’m just shocked that anyone, ever goes without health insurance if at all possible.

      2. Lucette Kensack*

        (BTW, I say this as someone who doesn’t use my employer’s health insurance because I am covered under my husband’s. I work for a nonprofit and he works for a global company, so I figure that by using his insurance I’m helping put a little more money into my org’s mission.)

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              But they can share the savings if the employee is using less resources. It’s not an unreasonable ask in the US now. People are talking a lot about various configurations, like through parents or the ACA.

              My concern would be that it might be out of touch with company norms – if they are that proud of the insurance (and what’s described is some niiiiice insurance), someone might get a little irked at rejection.

              1. Tinuviel*

                I’m still a little nervous about allowing companies to set benefits-per-person based on how many resources they take up. Sounds like giving smaller desks to smaller people and bigger desks to bigger people–it’s one thing to make accommodations that are more generous to the employee, but it’s another thing to take away a benefit because “they don’t need it.”

    9. CAA*

      I worked for a company that did pay out a portion of what they would have spent on health insurance if you had other coverage. It came in as a separate line on my paycheck, and it was treated as ordinary taxable income. It showed up in the total amount in box 1 of my W-2 at the end of the year. If I had enrolled in their health insurance at any point, that payment would have immediately stopped.

      This is really the only way they can legally pay this money to you without making significant changes to their benefit plans. They can’t setup an FSA or a cafeteria plan for benefits or put more money in your 401K than everyone else’s or anything like that without modifying those plan docs, so you can’t ask to be paid out except in cash in your paycheck.

      If you want to ask for the money (and you’d likely only get part of it because paying you more increases their taxes as well as yours), you can say that you’ve heard that a few other companies do this and you’d like to know if they’d consider it as well since you’re currently getting no value from this “compensation” they’re providing on their summary.

      1. 0_0*

        Thanks, this is very helpful info and what I had imagined it would look like if it was a possibility for me employer.

        1. Margali*

          “I worked for a company that did pay out a portion of what they would have spent on health insurance if you had other coverage. It came in as a separate line on my paycheck, and it was treated as ordinary taxable income. It showed up in the total amount in box 1 of my W-2 at the end of the year. If I had enrolled in their health insurance at any point, that payment would have immediately stopped.”

          This is how my company does it, too.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        This is really the only way they can legally pay this money to you without making significant changes to their benefit plans.

        Apparently not, since my husband’s employer will put it into a FSA for you.

        1. Natalie*

          That’s presumably part of their existing plan documents and is available to anyone who opts out of the insurance. CAA is saying they can’t set up a special FSA or extra 401k contribution that only 0_0 gets.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Ah, I see. Yes, it would need to be made available to all employees, not just o_o. But it could be a huge benefit to the company, if people who are taking insurance because “why not” suddenly have an incentive to go on a partner’s/parent’s insurance instead.

            1. CAA*

              It’s just that it takes time and costs money to rewrite benefit plan documents because these things are regulated by federal laws, and they usually cannot be changed during the plan year. If they don’t already have an FSA plan that allows this kind of variance in employer contributions, then they can’t just decide to start putting her insurance premium in there next month. I wanted to set expectations that 0_0 might have better luck if she asks for “more money in the paycheck” rather than “more money in the 401k”.

    10. DaniCalifornia*

      I think this is something that could be negotiated when accepting a job but unless you’d be willing to sign something that says you’ll revert back to the old pay if you need their health insurance again, they probably wouldn’t go for it.

      My company pays for our health insurance (terrible plan bc we are so small <15) and the minute I got married I switched to my husbands much better insurance. I did have a coworker who asked if I had requested a higher bump in pay for switching off my boss' plan and I hadn't thought to ask. He said he would have. I told him I'd probably been denied based on how my old school boss deals with the requests between men and women.

    11. Lily in NYC*

      I think Alison might have answered a similar question once and said it was ok to ask. I’m not 100% positive though!

    12. TooTiredToThink*

      I know a lot of people are saying no, no, no – but interestingly I worked at a place (*years* before the ACA) that offered an incentive for people who signed up on their spouses insurance. I don’t remember the details but I think it was either a quarterly or yearly bonus. It wasn’t the exact equivalent; because they were trying to cut costs; of course.

    13. Artemesia*

      This is the sort of thing you can do if you are a partner but hard to negotiate if you are an employee. Most businesses assume some percentage of employees will get their health care elsewhere. You could certainly ask if the savings might be shared in an annual raise or bonus but I would not be wildly optimistic.

      1. 0_0*

        Yeah, I think given the mixed bag of responses I’ll approach it as “I’ve heard this is a thing at some companies, wondering if it’s an option here, otherwise I’ll just stick with the health insurance and be double covered. Please and thank you. :-D”

    14. Rachel in NYC*

      This came up at my office- I can’t remember why. I was told that some offices do this- or at least have done it in the past.

      (And no, my office doesn’t.)

    15. Lalaith*

      I’ve done this. To everyone saying “would you take a pay cut if you had to go back on your company’s insurance?”, well… yes. The way to keep this clear is to have the extra money be a separate line item on your paystub, or a stipend or something like that. Then, if you need to use the insurance at any point, the extra amount is removed, and it’s very clear why. You can even base raise percentages on base pay only. My last company did it this way (and at some point I think they wanted to phase it out, so they were going to just lump it in with my salary, but since they were also phasing out bonuses in favor of an across-the-board percentage of pay raise and realized how much more they were going to end up paying me… they didn’t :-P). When I joined my current company I negotiated a salary bump based on the fact that I had outside insurance, but honestly I don’t like that. I want my base pay to be separate, so I know exactly what would happen if I suddenly did need their insurance.

    16. CatChaser*

      I think it really depends.
      My coworker opted out of our insurance to be on his wife’s. Our company gives him some amount per paycheck for not using our insurance. It’s a separate line on the payslip, so if he needs to pick up the company insurance again, he just loses the stipend.
      My husband opts out of his company’s. In return, his company puts about $5K per year into his 401K. This makes it tax free for him & I think the company. I should note his company does not offer a 401K match, so this makes up for it. Again, if he needs to pick up his company’s insurance, they stop the payments to his 401K.

    17. Sleepytime Tea*

      No. So the deal is that employer’s are required by law to offer everyone the same benefits. You can tell them “I promise I won’t sign up for medical insurance if you give me a raise” but they have zero way to hold you to that. Not saying you would do it anyway, but it’s way too big a risk for them. You can’t sign away your right to have the same benefits as your coworkers.

      If you’re a man and can’t take advantage of maternity leave, you can’t ask for a pay raise. If your company covers your entire family under health insurance but you’re a single person, you can’t ask for a pay raise. If your company gives out public transit passes but you don’t take transit, you can’t ask for a pay raise. There is always going to be a benefit that you might not get to use, but it doesn’t mean you get paid more.

    18. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Our insurance carrier would drop our account if they found out we were cutting these deals. So that’s the risk they’d run if they decide to opt for it. It’s actively encouraging people away from their product and insurance companies and group policies don’t like that kind of game playing in most situations.

      Companies who do self insurance plans would be the ones who would be able to do this and probably get away with it.

    19. Lurker2209*

      I work for a small, faith-based non-profit and we get paid a premium for not being on the company health insurance. It’s not large—our insurance is very basic—about $100 a month. It is explicitly called out on my pay stub as a healthcare waiver. (I’m paid hourly.)

      However, with that extra money, we come out about even on paying the higher non-employee premium to have me on my spouse’s insurance—which includes vision and dental. My employee coverage did not. We’ll see how it works out tax-wise; health benefits are tax-free, but the waiver payment is not. So it will probably cost a bit more I overall, but be worth in for better benefits.

      To my understanding, it’s an unusual practice, but my company realizes they can’t offer great insurance. Many employees have another option; spouse, parent’s insurance, one coworker has VA benefits. So it’s nice for those of us in that position to get something.

    20. EggEgg*

      I don’t think this is normal, but for what it’s worth my employer (smallish non-profit in the Pacific Northwest) pays me $200 per month to not use their insurance.

    21. HBJ*

      Yes, I have seen this done including by major companies. Not as a pay raise but a separate line on your w-2 at the end of the year.

    22. Gatomon*

      I believe my company offers an extra week’s vacation if you opt out of the health insurance coverage. Not necessarily a pay bump, but it might be a nice perk to get if you think you would use it.

    23. Kuododi*

      You can always ask however in my experience, you’re very unlikely to get what you want. I’ve tried to get more $$$ and the like during multiple salary negotiation, since I am well covered on DH insurance from his job. The closest I ever came was one mental health center which hired me gave me a small signing bonus. (Small enough bonus that it was eaten up by taxes. ). Otherwise, I got diddly-squat!!!

  17. early careerist*

    Why can’t I get past the phone interview? I’ve applied to maybe 20 positions, gotten about 5 phone interviews which I think is good, but I never get to the next round. At the bottom line, I realize I’m just not what they’re looking for, or someone else has a little more of the thing they really want. I get that, but I’m worried that I’m not even getting to the second round since many have 3 phase hiring. Are there any tips I should be thinking about, questions I should be asking myself?

    1. RussianInTexas*

      I have an accent and that’s what I always think is the reason. It very well might not be, I live in a highly diverse city, but it always nags at the back of my head.

    2. Mama Bear*

      Have you tried having a colleague or friend call you and ask you similar questions? There may be something in your phone presentation that could be improved. For example, long pauses in person might not matter so much because you can see the person in front of you, but on the phone that’s dead air and may make you seem less prepared/knowledgeable than you actually are.

    3. JustKnope*

      Maybe look at the jobs you’re applying for? If you’re getting to the screen and there are certain qualifications or characteristics they ask you about at that stage or they aren’t seeing at that stage, that could be a sign you’re not applying for the right types of jobs!

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First thing is are you in a highly competitive field and how much experience do you have? With your username, it sounds like you’re fairly young in your career, that’s a huge hurdle of it’s own to deal with, it could be just that!

      If you’re in a competitive field and say have 2-3 years experience, that’s great but you’re up against people who have much more experience, much stronger networks, etc. If you have even less experience, you’re even further down the list of people that will get the first bite at the job apple.

      A lot of phone screens are that last effort to really get the strongest candidates. So if you’re making it that far, it is a good sign but it’s most likely that you’re edged out by stronger candidates, which includes more experience or better communication with the interviewer.

      Maybe you come across well enough but are noticeably vague in your answers that they think that you should be sharp with. Maybe you don’t come across as excited enough or maybe you come across too eager, that’s all in the “eye of the beholder” and nothing you can do in the end on that side, which stinks. But in reality often it’s not you, it’s them.

      1. early careerist*

        Competitive enough that my 2-3 years of experience doesn’t seem to be quite enough for the jobs with the same title, so it looks like I’ll have to go down a level, which is okay. Thanks, everyone, for the replies. It’s always helpful to get perspective.

      2. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

        Yeah but don’t people with differing years of experience apply for different roles? Like, someone straight out of college isn’t going to apply for a senior role, and vice versa. Of course, we live in a world where true entry level jobs no longer exist, but experience can’t always be the factor.

        1. early careerist*

          Yeah, I’ve found that different organizations have different expectations for the same title, so a director at a local/state organization may only look for 3-5 years, but at a national organization, they want 5-7 years. I have 2-3 years of director experience in the field, and 3+ years of director level experience in a related field, so I thought it would be enough to qualify for positions seeking 5 years, and I’m getting to the phone interview stage so it doesn’t seem to be disqualifying, but I guess I don’t have exactly what they’re looking for within those 5 years. That’s the best I can guess, anyways.

    5. Locket*

      Are there background noises that are distracting? Are you typing during the interview? Some folks don’t like hearing typing for whatever reason. I second the suggestion of doing a mock interview over the phone with a friend. They might pick up on something that way.

    6. RetailRecruiter*

      As someone who does maybe 20 phone screens a week, I’d echo that you should have a friend ask you some of the questions you’ve been getting and give you feedback on the responses. If you have a common question/response that isn’t too technical maybe we can help in this thread more?

      I hire mostly for entry level retail, so maybe not relevant. My main thing that disqualifies me is when people sound like they don’t know who they are or what they want – like I tell them the shifts are evening and they say “oh, I prefer morning shifts, but I could do evening for a while I guess” or if they indicate that they really don’t like doing something that is an essential task of the job.

      1. early careerist*

        I’ve had my partner do mock interviews with me so I can talk through my answers. For example, when asked a question like why I want to leave my senior level looking position for a lower level role, I say either or both that I want to be able to broaden my scope of work beyond the local level (where I currently am) to affecting change at a national level, and that my current position was restructured to focus on job role A while I’ve realized I’m more passionate about job role B, which is what the positions I’m applying are for. I also try to be upfront about my need to work remotely because of my personal situation, but that I’d be open to relocating after that. (I’m applying for jobs that specifically state remote is considered, and it’s a line of work that is increasingly being done remotely.)

        I get positive verbal and non-verbal cues during the interview, and afterwards from recruiters and managers who say so directly and mention things specific to me so I know it’s not just a form letter. I’m guessing that I’m competitive but haven’t found the right fit yet, which is frustrating but I shouldn’t give up. I’m constantly improving though which each interview and have only been searching for about 2 months, so I’m still optimistic. I’m just trying to make sure I’m thinking it through now so I don’t blow it on the right fit when it finally does come along.

    7. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      I’m currently stuck in the final interview stage, but I have made it many a past phone interview. Something that I really try to demonstrate in the phone interview is how much I know about the company and the role. I do a lot of research on the company before the phone screen, and incorporate what I know about the company into my interview answers. The reason I highlight this is because a couple of recruiters seemed like they were impressed with how much context I already had about the company and industry. My guess is that I was probably doing something that my competitors were not doing at that point.

      That being said, I’m not a hiring manager myself so I don’t REALLY know what it is that resonates with them. But if you aren’t doing in depth research on the company before the phone screen, it’s worth trying. Also, have really good examples prepared for “Tell me about a time when” questions.

      1. Formerly Arlington*

        I do a lot of phone screenings and the main reason why I don’t move on to the next stage is a disconnect between what the candidates skills and salary requirements are and what we need and are willing to pay. Like their resume implies, say, social media experience, but when asked to describe that experience, it turns out, that was a minimal part of their previous jobs. Our company doesn’t pit salaries on the job requisitions so that also causes a lot of wast d photo new screens. (Grr!) i would be really familiar with the job description and requirements before your call so you can demonstrate that at least in terms of experience and skills, you are a match.

        1. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

          Ah this is good information! In defense of job candidates, most companies suck at job descriptions, though. (And GOD WHY OH WHY can’t we post salaries in job descriptions???) I’ve lost count the number of times a job description had “llama grooming” in every bullet point, only for me to hop on a call and it turns out llama grooming is only 10% of the job and what they really need is a conference planner.

        2. early careerist*

          Is it disqualifying if someone’s salary requirements are at the top of your bracket? As far as negotiating goes and as a woman, I try to be aggressive when negotiating so I have room to come down, but I worry that I’m quoting so high as to be eliminated as out of their range.

  18. Anonymom*

    Happy Friday! I am especially interested to hear perspectives from those in education about an encounter that’s been bothering me. My son has an IEP with accommodations for ADHD and other issues. I was at work in a training when I got a call from his case worker. I wasn’t able to answer immediately, but I could see from her voicemail that she was calling to tell me my son had forgotten his homework folder. I called back as soon as I got a break, about 20 minutes later.
    When I called her back, she asked if I had a work phone number. I told her no, that I use my cell phone for work. Then she asked if I worked at Large Local Employer. I said yes, and she said she thought so, and when I didn’t answer her initial call, she had called my employer to ask if they had another number for me. (They didn’t.)
    I didn’t say anything about it during the call because it took me off guard, but I felt like this was boundary crossing. If there was an emergency or she couldn’t get a hold of me for hours, maybe I could see the reasoning. But for a missing homework folder, especially when school policy forbids parents from bringing missing homework and similar items? Seems weird and unnecessary. What do you think?

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      Special ed teacher. That case worker was being weird and has way too much free time. I would have left you a VM. If you had a hostory of being a super high-maintenance parent, or your son was highly emotional, I might have tried a second number or gone to greater lengths, but I wouldn’t have tracked you down through your company.
      Maybe this woman is new or has been badly trained? I would let her know that in the future, just leaving a VM is totally fine.

      1. LKW*

        Another potential discussion point is that you will try to return her call within x minutes or x hours but that unless it’s an emergency involving the health or safety of your child, then she should leave a voicemail.

      2. Anonymom*

        Thanks! I did tell her on that call that she would be better off to text me during her workday since I’m in meetings very frequently and can’t always take a call immediately. I’m all for being an involved parent but this seemed ridiculous.

        1. Double A*

          Just so you know, it can be difficult for teachers to text because we often only have landlines. Many teachers will use their personal cell phone but that was always a hard boundary for me personally that I wasn’t willing to do. But asking to leave a VM is fine!

          I’m a high school sped teacher, so the hand holding of elementary is not something I’m very familiar with. This seems overly involved but the teacher may deal with a lot of helicopter parents and is trying to preempt problems.

          1. Anonymom*

            He’s actually in middle school (6th), not elementary and we are actively trying to train him to be better about remembering this stuff on his own, which made the whole thing more weird. She was the one who mentioned texting first though, which was why I told her it was a better method, so I think in this case she’s using her personal cell phone. I would have been fine with email or voicemails as well. Just don’t call the place where you think I may work to find a different number when I’m very responsive!

      3. MsChaos*

        Another SpEd teacher here… I wouldn’t even have called. What she should be doing is logging how often he is missing his folder. After 2-3 times, then she should contact you and discuss what kinds of systems you have set up at home for him to remember his school stuff (giant print whiteboard checklist, packing the backpack the night before, etc.). The focus should be on him becoming independently aware of what he has to do and develop systems for fostering that. Especially with young kids, many times this kind of thing is the easiest difficulty to overcome by helping the student develop habits that will help him as time goes on.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      That’s ridiculous. My spouse uses his cell for work (I believe his office number is forwarded to his cell, because he is almost never in his office–in a lab, in meetings, etc) and often he can’t answer right away. It is normal to not answer phone calls, outside of situations like your mom is having surgery and your sister is going to call as soon as the doctors tell her something. Even if they are calling to tell you the kid is on the way to the hospital for X-rays, a call back in 20 minutes is not worthy of an eyebrow raise.

      1. Anonymom*

        That’s what I thought. I’m a busy professional, and I’m usually in meetings most of the day. I can’t answer my phone immediately a lot of the time. I would think that would be the case with most working parents.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I freelance, my kids are grown, and if I’m talking on a conference call, or in the bathroom, or shopping in the back of the grocery store, I’m not answering my phone. In the last case I have no reception.

    3. Zephy*

      It was a little weird and unnecessary of her to try and track down an alternate phone number for you, for a non-emergency, after less than an hour, I agree. And given that school policy means you couldn’t even do anything about this non-emergency situation, I have to wonder what the purpose of calling you at all in the first place was? Just so you know? That’s…that’s basically just tattling. The school policy is bizarre but that’s a separate problem; why bother you at work to tell you that? They might as well have called to tell you his shoe was untied.

      1. Anonymom*

        That’s what I thought as well. Couldn’t she have just emailed? I’m glad to know I’m not the only one who thought it was off.

    4. knitter*

      Special ed teacher here. I agree this is out of line. I would have just sent an email.

      Either now or if it happens again, I’d set some boundaries with her. Also, I’d double check there isn’t any language in the IEP that makes her think that she has to get in touch with you urgently for stuff like this.

      I’d also explore other options. Maybe you ask for a weekly report. Maybe have a google doc where she can log this info.

      1. Anonymom*

        Thanks–I thought email would have been sufficient too. I did ask her to text me going forward since I’m in meetings throughout the day most days and won’t be able to pick up immediately. We did review his IEP yesterday and I didn’t see any language around that. I like the idea of a google doc though. Thanks for the suggestion!

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      This isn’t acceptable behavior on her part. Tell her exactly what you want her to do next time and hopefully she respects boundaries!

    6. Voc Ed Teacher*

      I use google voice to text parents and figure they will respond if they need to and if not, the message went through. She’s being weird.

    7. Artemesia*

      This. It can be awkward or embarrassing for an employee having someone try to reach them this way for personal reasons. You may not wish to share your son’s issues or you may not want your personal responsibilities being seen as intrusive to your job. BIG boundary crossing. If of course your son was being rushed to the ER, fine. But even if he were sick at school, waiting half an hour or an hour to get through would be more reasonable. Forgot homework folder — absolutely not. I’d nip this one in the bud.

  19. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    Any recommendations on networking with employees at a favorite organization in another city? I’ve tried LinkedIn messages with mixed results.

    1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      Maybe start with your college alumni directory and see if there’s anyone at that company or in the field in that city?

    2. rayray*

      Maybe see if you can find contact info for a recruiter at the organization, and send an email and ask if they could look at your resume and see if it might work for any positions in the future.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      I like Lemon Ginger’s advice. Try to only reach out to people who are willing to be contacted about this kind of thing. I work in one of those places that everyone wants to work and you wouldn’t believe how many people I’ve never met that email me trying to network. I’m not listed on my alumni directory or linkedin so I have no idea how these people are finding me.

  20. Amber Rose*

    How to gently explain that while a CEO/VP might not be a manager, they are manageMENT, and therefore need to fill out the manager documentation because they are still managing people and therefore manager paperwork applies to them?

    Because with the new company reorg, we no long have managers. Instead we have a CEO, some co-VPs, and then some supervisors, and then everyone else. Which makes the VPs… managers. By function if not by title. And I’m kind of tired of arguing about this with all three of them plus the new CEO. As far as the government is concerned you are managers! Upper management is still management. I’m not trying to reduce anyone’s importance or decide anyone’s position, I’m just trying to get the paperwork done. ;_;

    1. Free Meerkats*

      Send out an email blast laying out what the requirements are, and what the fallout from not fulfilling those requirements could be. Include that the responsibility for complying with those requirements is theirs. Don’t chase and nag them to do the things, just remind them of their responsibilities once or twice. Do all this via email so you have documentation that they knew both the requirements and the consequences. Then let them fail and suffer the consequences.

    2. LKW*

      Clarify that the requirement is for people who lead one or more people in the organization. If they are responsible for hiring, firing, budget whatever – then they count as “manager” and must fill out the form. Put it into words that appeal to their high-profile position.

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Change the terms! Instead of saying it’s mandatory for managers, say it’s mandatory for leadership.

  21. MOAS*

    This happened a while back so doesn’t really apply anymore but wanted to throw this out here…

    We were interviewing for remote positions a while back. 

    I had one candidate that I REALLY liked during the interview and was excited to move her forward. When it came time for the practical she did not do well. She explained why and to be honest, I wasn’t impressed with the answer–but my team and I were still on the fence about her. To give you an idea, she would have been at a level 4 while everyone starting would be at level 10. 

    I did talk to my boss at that time and he said it was my call–am I willing to put in the extra effort to train her? and take the responsibility for when things don’t work out with her? I ended up passing on her but it wasn’t easy. 

    Anyways, she emailed me afterwards with a thank you note (seriously, it is so rare that I got them throughout the process!) and I was really considering calling her and being totally honest and telling her where she can improve.

    I didn’t because 1) Im a new managers and I don’t want to act rogue, and 2) I’m not sure if this is something that interviewers usually do. If I draw on my own experience, I was certainly never told by an interviewer where I could improve. 

    We don’t anticipate hiring until after next ttax season (so April) so that may give me time to get better at this but what would yall have done? 

    1. valentine*

      Because you liked her so much and not hiring her was difficult (maybe because this was new to you?) I think it would’ve been okay for you to tell her where to improve.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Same. I probably would have done it, but it’s also possible she knows exactly why she was passed over if you were pumped about speaking with her in the first place and then sent a rejection.

    2. LLG612*

      In a few rare cases I have responded to thank you notes following rejections with the offer to discuss ways they could have been more competitive. Usually it’s when a candidate is earlier in their career or there was something very compelling in one part of their application and another area that fell super flat that would be something with actionable items to improve rapidly.

    3. dealing with dragons*

      it’s so strange to me that we hire based on already held skills rather than trainability! How long did it take you to fill the position vs having to get her up to speed?

      I am in software engineering and I am often amazed that people are only hired if they are “experts” in a language. My old team hired people if they knew the language vs finding people who were talented. It was hard since the former were probably near their max ability, but if we had hired for talent the sky is the limit.

      my two cents :)

      1. The Other Dawn*

        If I was in a bind and had my choice between someone who knows the subject matter and someone who doesn’t, but is trainable, I’d take the person with knowledge and experience. But if I wasn’t filling an immediate need, or didn’t have a lot of candidates with the skills I need, I’d much prefer the trainable person.

      2. designbot*

        There’s a lot of nuance to those judgement calls though. For example, I commonly hire people who don’t know a specific program but know adjacent ones, that’s an easy call. But what about the people who don’t know my sector of the design industry? They’re talented in their own ways, they’re interested, they’re engaging… but they don’t know how to get things built and that’s way bigger than knowing a program. Someone will take a couple of weeks to get up to speed on a program—it takes a whole year for even a very talented and motivated person to start to be profitable in my sub-field. And people in that niche are in short supply, so this is a choice I have to make pretty much every time I hire. And to add to that, people with 10 years of experience in an adjacent field want me to spend a year training them but don’t want to spend a year at a junior level salary. And I get it, because they’d have to take it on faith that we’d bump them up to the appropriate level after that training period, but it doesn’t make my project budgets any easier to reconcile.

      3. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

        It probably varies by employer. I know some people who like to hire inexperienced but talented people so that they can mold them in their own way. Some find already-trained people inflexible and unwilling to part with the way they are taught to do things. I think this is mostly the case in some tech companies who have their own software they want to train people on.

    4. designbot*

      I would have given her a bit of info on why she was not selected and where she could improve. If someone’s been interviewed and taken skills testing, they’ve invested enough in this that I think giving them feedback is appropriate instead of just rejecting them without reason.

    5. juliebulie*

      I think it’d be very helpful to her if you gave her that very specific feedback.

      But maybe don’t tell her that it wasn’t easy to pass her up. That would make me feel worse, knowing that I’d missed it by that much.

    6. irene adler*

      I’ve seen both sides of this situation.

      Suggestion: can you qualify what it is that you really liked about this candidate?

      Yes, a candidate who possesses the right skills is a great thing. So is finding a perfect ‘cultural fit’ who can be trained up to meet the job expectations. Be careful about those pleasing first impressions. Understand exactly what it is you like about a candidate.

      One time we hired someone who did well in the interview. She was very likeable. She was bright, smart as a whip, had excellent answers for every interview question. She was a genuinely interesting person. She had a number of accomplishments on the resume. She charmed upper management. They were falling over themselves, insisting that we hire her. We did.

      She turned out to be a frickin’ nightmare for me- her boss. I ended up firing her after spending a year dealing with a difficult personality, zero interest in doing the job, frequent absences, lying, anger issues, intimidation. Hated working with her.

      We interviewed a woman who was laid off from a hospital lab. and was working at a local retail store. She was older. She was pleasant, well spoken, happy to have a chance to interview for a lab job. Initially, I was lukewarm about hiring her. But she was willing to take the salary we offered. That’s what management felt was most important.

      She turned out to be an absolute joy to work with (everyone felt this way about her!). She took ownership of her responsibilities, always took an interest in doing her work well, wanted to learn new things, dedicated to always improving her skills. A rock star if ever there was one.

  22. Choosing a career path?*

    How do people decide what kind of work they’re interested in? My adult child has a BA in a non-remunerative liberal arts major. They had always planned to get a terminal degree like pretty much everyone else in the family. Now it’s clear that they probably don’t want the kind of career you get with a terminal degree.

    What I think they want is a job with predictable hours, where they can leave work at work and spend their free time doing things they enjoy. Working to live as opposed to living to work.

    We have the resources that they can get additional training without having to go into debt, but they need to come out with a skill that they are willing and able to support themselves doing. So something more like an office job and less like retail.

    I know this is a ridiculous question, but there are SO MANY jobs out there that are neither stocking shelves nor performing neurosurgery. I have no idea how to guide my adult child regarding career/job options.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I think you actually have to go to work to figure out what type of work you like. All the navel gazing and career interest surveys in the world won’t really answer it. Figure out three things you’re good at (exp-math, solving problems, customer service), an area you have interest in (exp-technology, animal health, fitness), get a job that sort of fits to start (exp-procurement entry level job at a biotech firm), and build on that. People make it too complicated. I know from personal experience. I think you also have to temper their expectations. Entry level jobs aren’t great. You don’t have responsibility. You get the grunt work. People boss you around. I had a professional entry level job (engineer), and it still sucked. You have to put in the time before you really learn what direction to take for the next job, and eventually you can build a career you enjoy.

    2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      This might be a shot in the dark but consider a trade career like electrician or HVAC technician, etc? Those are good-paying jobs with an aging workforce eyeing retirement, and I’ve heard from many such tradesmen that it’s a great living, you get to set your hours, you aren’t stuck in an office all day long, and so on.

      As someone who has a liberal arts degree and is working a job that sounds similar to what you described (set hours after which I clock out and am not expected to check emails or be available)… it’s not especially fulfilling.

      2. AnotherAlison*

        So there’s a strong chance my kid will do this. He is getting his BBA, but he’s worked for my husband as an electrician and my husband wants him to take actual community college classes in the trade after he finishes his other degree, then work for him, then move into management of the family business. I can’t say whether I think any of THAT is a good idea, but what I would say is that anyone who does go into the trades needs an exit strategy. The trades do take a toll on you physically. There can be a ladder up to less physical superintendent roles, etc., but it does not always work out that way. Another thing about trades is they always talk about the high salary. If you’re looking at a 27 year old guy with a liberal arts degree working at the cell phone store and a 27 year old guy as a traveling industrial electrician, sure, the electrician is making a lot more, but there are guys wiring new houses that don’t make much at all. The salary growth curve is also different. You make more starting out, but the curve isn’t as steep as it is in more some of the sought after white collar careers. Most guys aren’t starting at $50k at 25 and going to $150k at 40. Or you might start at $100k in a boom market, but that doesn’t last long term. People just need to know what they’re getting into.

        1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

          This is true, but I think also worth factoring in that many (most?) trades have unions that generally address retirement/pensions/the physicality of the work. Considering most employers no longer offer such benefits and the contractor business is growing rapidly, trade careers are looking better and better these days.

    3. the other kind of $ problem*

      Usually career services are available to alumni; it might be helpful for them to go visit a career counselor so get a handle on what their interests might be. In the meantime, perhaps administrative work through a temp agency could provide exposure to different departments and industries that fall within the “office work” domain.

    4. Anne of Green Gables*

      First of all, sometimes colleges offer career counseling to alumni, especially young alumni. As seen here, how good they are may vary, but that’s one route to pursue and could mean talking to someone who knows various careers/jobs out there.

      Another thought is to look at a listing of programs at the local community college. Those programs tend to focus on job-ready skills and may give you/your child some ideas about areas that exist and need workers. Some of this might just be to identify possibilities, or could leave to a program at said community college. I work at a community college and we do get folks who have a BA from elsewhere but come here to get specific training; it’s more common than you’d think.

    5. Falling Diphthong*

      If you can get local recommendations, a career coach can sometimes be helpful. Quality is all over the place–as with publishing surefire tips on how to get your resume noticed by printing it on tinfoil, there is no official barrier to entry–but the good ones can be really helpful at pointing you toward fields that would use your skills, fields you didn’t know existed.

      I’d also recommend volunteering in things that interest them, and the value of a job, any job, to help winnow down what tasks they do and don’t like. (My college jobs were unrelated to my major or eventual field, but they taught me that I like being given an assignment and then left free to complete it, rather than having to be in a given spot from 3 to 5.)

      1. PantaloonsOnFire*

        +1 for the volunteering recommendation. When I was fresh out of school, I had to take some entry level jobs I wasn’t especially thrilled by, but volunteering helped me to figure out my interests and boosted my resume to the point that I could get work in my desired field.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          And–I type this as an introvert–being in contact with a diverse cast of people is one of the best ways to learn things. Jobs that exist. Routes to those jobs. Bad things about those jobs that are not obvious to outsiders.

    6. Joielle*

      If I were your kid in this situation, I’d start by thinking of some places I might like to work. Nonprofits? Government? Corporation? Pick out a few places (maybe in one category, maybe several) and look at job openings. Pick some job openings that sound interesting and look at the qualifications. They’ll start to narrow down the types of qualifications that show up repeatedly.

      They might also consider doing a few informational interviews – perhaps their university can help connect them with alums in different fields who are doing jobs that might interest them. If they can get an informational interview with someone in HR, that person might have some suggestions.

      I think it might also help to frame this decision as “getting a job they like” rather than “choosing a career path.” The latter is really intimidating and can feel like if you don’t pick the right thing now, you’re doomed to a life of doing work you hate. That’s not the case at all – any job has transferable skills and they could end up doing something very different later on. Good luck!

    7. a former legal assistant*

      Has your child considered paraprofessional roles (e.g., legal assistant/paralegal)? Depending heavily on the office you work in, that kind of work can involve predictable hours, work you leave at work, and decent pay. I was a legal assistant for several years and while the work could be fast-paced, it was certainly manageable. I will say that it’s highly dependent on the office environment — I’m now a lawyer and I see that our legal assistants are saddled with WAY more work than they can get done in a 40-hour work week, to the point that sometimes they have to stay late or request overtime to get it all done.

    8. YouGottaThrowtheWholeJobAway*

      Predictable hours jobs will possibly be less exciting, because more glamorous or exciting roles often have worse benefits/hours/etc. because more people are trying to do them. My job is unfulfilling and not particularly challenging, but I can shine on for my 40 hrs, collect my check, time off, health care, and payroll taxes and then enjoy my life evenings, weekends and vacations. Honestly the best thing to do is go temp and gain office experience, have a look around various places and see where they might tolerate working. A lot of new grads or interns have very rosy ideas of some fields (mine being one) and then are disappointed when the reality is processing invoices, dealing with irate people on the phone, hours on the spreadsheet farm, etc.

    9. MoopySwarpet*

      I think admin/reception temping is a great way to dabble in different industries. When I did that, I was just looking to pay rent, but I did get to talk to quite a few people in several different industries. The only one I “hated” was a call center.

      Another option would be to take a few random classes at a community college to see if anything strikes a chord. I took classes like psychology, criminal justice, anthropology, etc. Maybe taking a few classes that are unrelated to a degree or specific goal might help spark some interest. Although, with a BA in liberal arts, you would think they would have already taken a variety of classes that would give some kind of interest.

      Another possibility is volunteering at different places such as libraries, elder care, pet rescues, big sister/brothers . . .

      I never knew what I wanted to be when I grew up (still don’t), but did come up with a variety of things I DIDN’T want to be. :P (Lawyer, doctor, engineer, retail worker, waitress, gas station attendant . . . lol)

    10. KR*

      Definitely recommend government – town clerks office, tax collector, permit processing, ect. Predicable hours, good benefit, not amazing pay but they sometimes have a union or good perks when you work there 5+ or 10+ years.

    12. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      If they like people and don’t mind traveling for a few years, colleges are always hiring grads to work in alumni outreach and fundraising (might also be called development, advancement, etc). It’s an amazing way to get experience and build marketable skills that can translate into just about any career….or if they like it, it’s a well-paying, very stable career field to stay in long-term.

    13. theletter*

      a lot of liberal arts majors are going into technology or technology-adjacent work. Product Managers and Project managers are often paid well and get to do very dynamic work with a combination of soft skills and general interest in the field they are in.

      I have a degree in music, and though I was never great at math (I think I might have the math dyslexia) I realized after college that I did pass all my math courses in high school without too much trouble. I put with some terrible, toxic jobs at the bottom rungs in some startups and was eventually able to teach myself some coding skills. I’m pretty happy with the work I do now, and I have plenty of time to sing and play guitar when the mood strikes me.

      If technology is an interest, there’s a lot of programming boot camps, but your graduate may want to try out some free online tutorials in SQL to see if that appeals to them first before committing to a 3 month program.

      1. Choosing a career path?*

        My adult child is in fact interested in coding and is considering a boot camp. Any suggestions about which programs to consider? I’m skeptical about ones that “guarantee” a job at the end. It sounds too good to be true. Also, my child believes that they will immediately come out of this 3 month boot camp and be equipped to get a “high five figure” job, which also sounds too good to be true.

        I understand that I can research this stuff myself, but I’m trying to provide some guidance and points to consider, rather than getting too involved in the actual decision process. So perhaps I should amend my question from “which programs to consider” (although I’d appreciate firm recommendations), and add “how do you think my child should evaluate various programs and claims?”

        1. spock*

          If a bootcamp is high quality and has good connections then high 5 figures is not ridiculous for the industry at all, at least in my city. They do seem to be hit and miss but my company has lots of interns from 2 local camps and many of them receive return offers. Definitely need to do due diligence but it’s not far fetched IF you have the aptitude for it. Probably will take more than 3 months though.

          Btw I agree about trying it out online first, in fact many bootcamps may require it, but SQL isn’t really gonna be the main thing here, you’re highly unlikely to spend a lot of time with databases compared to javascript and other front end technologies.

          Just in case your child is a woman and would be open to a move to Seattle, Ada Developers Academy is free and highly successful.

    14. QCI*

      technical degrees. Blue collar work. There’s nothing wrong with working with your hands and depending on the field would definitely allow the work to live ideal, and studies show blue collar workers tend to have more satisfying jobs, so there’s that.

    15. Choosing a career path?*

      Thank you so much to everyone who’s responded. These are wonderful suggestions, many of which I would never have thought of. I appreciate this community so much!

    16. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’ve gotten a lot of great suggestions but I just want to say something regarding “how do you decide what you’re interested” aspects of things we ask college kids to figure out. There’s a possibility that even if it looks interesting to them on a school level and they can learn the necessary skills, they may still not like the job in the end.

      Try not to make it a “make a decision and stick with it, no matter what.” thought process. Temping is a great way to test drive places but even that doesn’t give you a full scope.

      I’ve seen so many people go to school for Something, thrive and kill it in school, only to hate the real-life job that it comes down to. Which is one of those things where it’s like “okay stick it out while you find another way to switch gears” but it’s daunting and makes people really stutter-step when you make it sound like “Oh you went through HVAC tech training, you’re forever a HVAC tech, suck it up!” scenario.

      When you point out the emergency exit does exist, in case of an emergency, people tend to make thoughtful decisions but at least aren’t paralyzed by the fear of making that next step if they’re of a cautious mindset.

    17. SI*

      If your child wants to learn a trade, have they looked into contacting local unions about apprenticeship programs? They would learn something that they might be interested in and get paid while doing it.

      1. Clisby*

        Or contact a local technical college to see if they cooperate with local businesses in apprenticeship programs. (I’m in SC, which is notoriously unfriendly to unions, but our state technical colleges do work with industries to place students in apprenticeships/internships.)

    18. Hillary*

      This was me fifteen years ago. I graduated from a liberal arts school, thought I was going to go to law school, and started temping. In my first couple years I learned that I like problem solving, I like fast pace, and I like hands on work where I can see the results. I ended up in supply chain, eventually getting my MBA and moving into the corporate world.

      Along the way I learned government isn’t the right pace for me, neither is real estate. I was a good CSR and could have made a killing at sales, but I hate doing it all day. Talking to customers is draining for me, but teaching and running trainings is energizing. I like working with data but don’t like doing it all day every day, and I don’t like who I am when I’m in compliance. I like negotiating, and I love finding win-win solutions for my internal and external partners.

      Temping still seems to be a thing, so if your kid wants to spend time in offices I’d suggest that to start. It’s an easy way to get exposed to a lot of concepts and find out what they do and don’t like. My other big piece of advice is to say yes (within reason). The single trait that’s most important to me in a new hire is curiosity. I can and will teach the technical skills.

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Rita Mae Brown has written that she preferred construction jobs before she earned enough to write full time, because someone else paid her to get exercise, and she saved up her mental energy for her free time.

    20. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      I also have a liberal arts degree, and my goal was to get a job where I did my 8 hours and went home with holidays and weekends off. I found that the federal government was a great place to get exactly that. I got a job with with an agency that was tangentially related to my interests, did a year in a call center setting to get my foot in the door, and then moved into a job I don’t hate. I can’t say I am in my dream job, but I have plenty of time outside of work to pursue passion projects and hobbies. I get to help people at my job, but at the end of the day (which for me is 3 pm) I am done. I know the government may not be everyone’s favorite, but for me, the pay and benefits allow me to enjoy a good quality of life.

    21. Anon the Third*

      Have they considered library school? The job possibilities are more diverse than most people think, and there are plenty of corporate and government gigs that are a solid 9-to-5.

    22. Policy Wonk*

      Don’t forget government at all levels. We need people to process Social Security Applications, tax returns, passport applications. At the state level there is a need for people to work at the DMV, vital records office. Cities need people to handle inquiries from people on issues ranging from potholes to trash collection. Your elected officials have constituent services offices or websites and can be a good source of information about government hiring.

    23. Frankie*

      For me, it was all through exploring, all at actual entry-level jobs. My first job post MA was an admin assistant (temp to hire) and I taught myself how to build databases to help with a task that was entirely, and insanely, manual beforehand. My second job was a temp job filing–they brought me on permanently in a lower-level role where I explored analyst tasks. My next job, I got a job doing all those analyst tasks. Over the years this has turned into a very satisfying career, one that uses all those skills I was also using in my degrees.

      I truly, honestly don’t think you figure a lot of this out until you’re on the job and you experience a variety of places.

      And unless they have a very specific idea of what they are good at and can realistically do, I would say to hold off on training. On-the-job experience matters so much more for a graduate than a certificate or a few seminars. They’ll have so much information about themselves after a job or two.

    24. Sleepytime Tea*

      I mean, really, you have to just get out there and work and get exposed to things. It’s how you find out what you like. I started out in a call center, where I was randomly exposed to business analytics, ended up loving it, and made a career of it.

      There’s some pretty standard office job starting-out careers. Data entry. Receptionist/admin. Claims processors (medical/insurance). Things like that. One option is to just kind of start looking at certain businesses and seeing what they have available, instead of trying to search for a specific job title. So lets say big health care company A is in your town. Go to their site, see what they have posted. Maybe they have a front desk position, or data entry, or answering the switchboard, or whatever.

  23. SaraV*

    I have a question for those in HR or anyone else that might have knowledge of this…

    Why, on applications, do they ask if you have EVER been fired from a job? I can certainly understand asking if you’ve been fired within the past five, or even seven, years. I guess I’m asking because yes, I’ve been fired, but it was over 15 years ago. (I had some personal stuff going on in my life, and my lack of being able to deal with it well affected my performance at work)

    I’m just curious of the possible reasoning for it.

    1. fposte*

      My guess is 1) it’s just the template and it’s easier than deciding the difference between 5 years or 6 years or 10 years and 2) some reasons for firing still matter after a long time. They don’t know if yours is one of those until they ask you about it.

    2. Evil HR Person*

      Actually, I see it as a warning to the applicant. It’s the same as when you’re asked whether you’d submit to a drug test and background check. Most people wouldn’t dream to answer this in the negative, and it seems pretty obvious that these things will happen as part of applying. Anyway, these kinds of questions are meant as a warning to you that – no matter what you answer – we’ll be looking at this. Now, if your firing happened 15 years ago, and we’re only going to check the last 10 years (usually, unless we work in government), then you don’t have to answer it truthfully. You can mentally add “within the last ten years” to that question. The question does matter if you are applying to a government position (federal government, in particular) or to work in healthcare, police, etc. They do WAY thorough background checks that may go back further than 10 years, and then you have to be honest. You might not lose the chance at getting the job if you’ve been fired, but you WILL lose the chance if you lie on the application and they find out, regardless of what kind of lie it is.

      1. Anon Librarian*

        How do you find out if someone was fired? Are there really records of this that anyone can access? What if it was something like a summer job at an ice cream shop?

    3. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I was fired from a job 6+ years ago, my first real job in a career path that is adjacent to the one I have now but not the same. It was an awful company that lied to me about accommodating my grad school schedule and I stopped caring.

      Honestly, I say no on applications. I know the outcome of an employment verification from this company and they have been true to their word (confirming dates of employment with no reason for dismissal, re-hire contingent on circumstances) so I don’t know how anyone would find out. I’m a great employee, I work hard, and have had great reviews and a lot of support from employers at my last three jobs. I don’t find it to be relevant.

      1. Spreadsheets and Books*

        To clarify on the true to their word bit, they told me they would provide neutral responses to background checks and would not state why I left if asked. They have been true to that in two background checks and I have no reason to think that will ever differ.

    4. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I figure that they think that if you were fired, that means that you did something wrong, and they don’t want to hire someone who did something wrong.

      I was once asked on an application if I had been fired or if I had quit a job to avoid being fired within the past ten years. This shook me up very badly, because once I accidentally found a newspaper ad for my job, so I realized that they were looking to fire me. I gave two weeks notice immediately. By the time I left, I hadn’t been replaced, so I don’t know when I would have wound up being fired. However, that had occurred more than eleven and a half years earlier, so I had no problem answering “no.” But if I had been asked that question verbally, I would have freaked out, and I’m sure that by the time I was able to compose myself and say “no,” they would have been convinced that I was lying.

      I never had a problem taking a drug test. I had to take one in order to get a job. But I was turned off when another company offered to hire me, subject to my passing a polygraph test, which they said was necessary, because they didn’t want to hire drug addicts. I wouldn’t have had a problem with a more typical drug test, but I did not want to take a polygraph test.

    5. juliebulie*

      If they asked about being fired for cause, I’d understand it. But the one time I was fired (in 2003) was the end of my training period in furniture sales. The guy who had hired me was transferred on my second day, and the new guy had no use for a novice, so on the last day of my training period (while I was literally in the middle of writing up a sale), I was gone.

      I wasn’t allowed to explain this on my application to a very juicy long-term contract a few years ago when I was out of work, and I guess I’m still kinda mad.

      1. Deanna Troi*

        I would consider this to be a layoff, not a firing. When they no longer need someone in your position and it has nothing to do with you yourself, it is a layoff. If I were you, I would answer “no” to the question of having ever been fired with a clear conscience.

        1. juliebulie*

          Well, I called it a layoff when I applied for unemployment, and word came back that it was in fact a firing.

          Though I suppose I might be able to get away with calling it a layoff now, given that it’s 18 years later and the company no longer exists.

          1. Deanna Troi*

            I’m sorry about that. Frustrating that they didn’t call it a layoff. I agree it would be fine all these years later.

  24. wingmaster*

    This week, I flew out for an out-of-state interview! (For those who commented a couple weeks ago, the company did pay for my traveling). I think I did very well with the interviews. The hiring manger lost track of time, so our lunch went over 30 minutes lol. I had to be on the plane in the next 45 minutes! Luckily, it was a small town with an easy airport to get into.

    HM emailed me the next morning how it was great to meet me in person and asked me again what salary I would want. In our first phone interview, I was able to get her to state the range first. The top of the range was maybe $10k less than I want it to be. I replied back with a higher range at +$15k. She just replied, thanking me for my response and that she will get back to me next week. So…I think things might be going well.

    Thanks AAM community for all the help, from sharing your blind-move stories to flying out-of-state!

  25. Millennial Lizard Person*

    Y’all we had a going-away lunch for a mediocre coworker yesterday. But our boss (the team lead) didn’t attend because he was “too busy”. He’s full of it! Coworker announced his resignation at a group meeting, and that was the first time Boss heard about it. So Boss didn’t go to the farewell lunch out of pure pettiness. I’m somewhat impressed at Boss’s dedication to pettiness (it’s a nice restaurant! Free lunch!!) but also blindsiding your boss is kinda rude. And Boss is a pretty good boss, so it’s not like Coworker needed to be afraid to say anything.

    What’s a petty thing you’ve seen your boss do? Deserved or undeserved?

    1. Swiper*

      Oh man. Probably being so mad that a senior person was leaving and not sending out the official announcement until AFTER she was gone even though she’d given a month’s notice, making it sound like she’d been fired. The most annoying to me personally was that we used to get let out a few hours early prior to long weekends, always announced a surprise at the last minute (which caused a ton of problems, but that’s a whole other thing). One time someone had the GALL to ask if it would be happening and he was so enraged by that display of entitlement that he didn’t let us go early again for over a year. The other 100+ of us sure appreciated that.

    2. Peaches*

      A couple years ago, my boss was a PIP for various things (I shouldn’t have even known this information, but her boss who has since left the company inappropriately shared the information with me and others).

      Anyway, one of the main issues is that my boss would regularly (and still does, FWIW) show up 30+ minutes late, in a position where she needed to be in the office when we opened at 7:30. She also took 2+ hours lunches, ran personal errands several times a week, and regularly left the office 1-2 hours early. She’s a salaried, full-time employee, and was regularly working <30 hours a week.

      My boss's boss told her that if she didn't start showing up to the office on time, she would fail her PIP and subsequently be fired. So, she began to (for the first time ever) show up to the office by 7:30.

      I've worked here for 5 years, and have only shown up later than 7:30-7:32ish one single time. I happened to be watching the news that morning, and saw that there was a serious accident on my route to work, which is very unusual, as I usually have a 10-12 minute drive with no traffic. I made a point of leaving 15 minutes earlier than usual per work due to the accident. I ended up showing up at 7:38 A.M (my usual 10-12 minute drive ended up being a 38 minute drive!) This was on a Tuesday, during the time my manager was on a PIP, so she was actually showing up on time at 7:30. When I submitted my time sheet that Friday (with my usual 40 hours), my manager came over to me and asked me if I'd "made sure to shorten my lunches for being late on Tuesday." I literally could not believe she way saying that to me over EIGHT minutes. Especially considering I had never been late in my entire tenure. Not to mention, she was literally on a PIP for being chronically late all the time. During ANY OTHER TIME FRAME (i.e. when she wasn't on a PIP), she would have had no idea I was "late", because she wouldn't have arrived until at least 8:00.

      It still makes me mad thinking about it. At the time, my response was "you do realize I arrived at 7:38, right?" In retrospect, I wish I would have said something snarky like, "yep, I shortened Tuesday's lunch by 2 minutes, Wednesday's lunch by 3 minutes, and Thursday's lunch by 3 minutes!"

      Her pettiness (directed at me!) was not deserved. Lol.

    3. Petty VP*

      Oooo. I kind of have one going on right now.

      I was demoted (meh) from [job title] to assistant [job title] at my job several months ago. (I was hired into a position slightly over my head, right before the busy season of our industry, and I was lacking proper training) No hard feelings. So the new coordinator came over from a corporate position within the company. She and the VP over that department she came from a) Did not mesh well, and b) She left similarly, slightly blindsiding the VP (but still giving two weeks notice) So, I interviewed in early May for a position that would be underneath this VP. Didn’t get the job. Okay, no worries, someone else was more qualified. End of July, the same position is open. (There are many people that hold this position) I apply again, but didn’t attach a cover letter. Applications were closing on a Friday. On the Monday before closing, I receive a rejection email. Oooookkkaaaaay. So the newer person [in my old job position) was talking to someone later that’s in the know with a lot of things and confirmed that yeah, I didn’t get the interview/position because of my indirect association with her. o_O

      Oh! Guess what kind of position opening I just saw on Tuesday? She isn’t only petty, she appears to be severely lacking in people skills, too.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I have done what your boss did. The departing coworker was mediocre at her job and also terrible to be around (she hated everyone and the job, and made that clear every day at work). I was “too busy” to attend her going-away lunch and I have no regrets. She treated me with contempt and I didn’t want to spend anymore time with her than I had to.

    5. Also a project manager*

      At my boss’s goodbye party (she was taking a different job), Boss said a few words and then proceeded to go around the room and thank everyone for making it a good job. Everyone, that is, except those of us that worked directly for her. She prided herself on looking like The Best Employee Manager Ever whose direct reports loved her so much that when we were left out of the goodbye speech, it set off the inter-office gossip like you would not believe. (We did not love her. She was a micromanaging narcissist to the Nth degree who stabbed us all in the back and took credit for our individual work.)

    6. Former Govt Contractor*

      Mean attorney at OldLawFirm who abused his entire staff including other lawyers, had a dedicated paralegal (not me) who had worked for him since she was in high school, so for over 20 years. She was his right hand. She was one of the few people who could stand to work for him at all, much less for that long. She paid his bills for him. One day she made a comment about how high his daughter’s high credit card bill was that month. He didn’t speak to her again. Ever. She gave him about 2 years (!!) to get over it, but he never did. So she left and she has an amazing job which has provided rare advancement opportunities for a paralegal. So happy for her. He’s had a revolving door on that position ever since. Idiot shot himself right in the foot.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Oh man, at least that departing employee got a going away lunch!

      My previous and only petty boss, had to be the one to initiate the going away lunch.

      Everyone had them, except for those who personally victimized him with their departure. There was no lunch for me when I resigned appropriately, to him directly. Then quietly let my team know afterwards.

      That said, if someone was so rude as to drop a bomb like that in a group meeting, not attending their farewell lunch isn’t petty to me. It’s justified and it’s also better than sitting there and seething or possibly making a scene. I’m of firm belief that if you don’t like someone, don’t attend their lunch. Just like if you don’t know someone, don’t attend their retirement lunch either.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I’m of firm belief that if you don’t like someone, don’t attend their lunch.

        I’m torn because while I agree with this on a personal level (if we aren’t friends/friendly, don’t be fake about how much you’re going to miss me, lol), I kind of feel it’s different in the workplace and when you’re a manager. You should be able to suck it up and attend a farewell lunch (unless that person was highly disruptive/toxic in the workplace or personally disrespectful to you – then yeah, skip that mess) if only to show your team how to handle interpersonal challenges with grace and dignity. My last manager and I weren’t remotely close and didn’t really like each other, but she still took me to lunch on my last day and arranged for me to get a gift card. I thought that was classy.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          That’s fair enough. It reminds me of the person who wanted advice awhile back about if they had to invite their manager, they didn’t get along with and a main reason for leaving the company to their farewell lunch.

          However in this case it’s more cut and dry, since the manager was absolutely disrespected by not being the person who knew about the resignation prior to the resignation during a team meeting. So I really don’t think the manager here is doing anything wrong or really petty in the end there.

          But I really hate that these things that are for the employee leaving to get to say their goodbyes, along with their colleagues to say their goodbyes and such are just viewed as “free lunch” in ways. It’s not a free lunch in the end, it’s a very casual business meeting with a catered lunch more so.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            However in this case it’s more cut and dry, since the manager was absolutely disrespected by not being the person who knew about the resignation prior to the resignation during a team meeting.

            Yeah…this wasn’t great. But I don’t know that it was personally disrespectful either. I’ve seen some clumsy as hell resignations that weren’t intended to be a referendum on how someone felt about the manager, and I know I haven’t always handled it as smoothly as I would have liked for various reasons myself, but I see how you would view it that way given that the employee in question is described as not being that great to begin with so isn’t that much of a loss to the company.

    8. Phoenix Programmer*

      Oh man time to buckle up for wildly true stories of SM. Whose real initials match the way I always thing of her “Sucky Manager”

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        SM did not like to waste time before bringing out the petty. On my first day reporting to her, she “interviewed” me and asked why I applied to the position (she was transferred to our team).

        I told her I didn’t apply to this team, I was transferred during a reorganization.

        SM blew a lid – asking how I could possibly just be given a slot on this team. She was extremely loud about it too. Drawing a ton of attention.

        Tires of the BS and innuendo that I would not qualify for the team (I was a top performer at the huge multi nation company) I said “I’m not sure. My understanding was that Devon* specifically asked for me to be in his division.

        *Devon was her great grand boss and head of the division of which her tiny team was a small part.

        To make it better just as she incredulously snarked “Youuuu do work for Devon?” One of his aids came by and asked for me to come help Devon with his spreadsheets.

      2. Phoenix Programmer*

        A month after SM started I was 5 minutes late due to traffic accidents in the winter (I lived in a snow heavy region). SM was remote and once someone tattled on me that I was late, even though it was a first offense, she made me IM her each morning at 8am. She then was frequently not on at 8am, the first time I missed her check in was due to her not being on she threatened to write me up. So I started screen shotting my office clock and emailing her daily when her IM was off.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Please tell me you also got the IM with her being obviously off-line in the 8 AM screenshot! So. petty. of her and the person who tattled.

          1. Phoenix Programmer*

            So funnily this ended because Devon called me into his office to work on reports for him. I missed her call in, so she called me to complain. Devon overheard her loud berrating and said “Hey SM I got a question for you call me now please. Phoenix let me know when you are done with those reports.”

            About an hour later I got an email to discontinue the daily IMs.

      3. Phoenix Programmer*

        SM would hold team meetings before the “real” team meeting to get other staff to complain about me. During these pre-team meetings she would goad them like “Really? No one has a complaint? Well I guess we need to talk about YOUR performance then…” and out of fear people would speak up.

        I found out about a year after leaving the team because a coworker called me crying that she felt pressured to say bad things about me.

      4. Phoenix Programmer*

        I was from TX. A position on our team opened up in TX just 3 hrs from my family. SM decided one of the MN positions had to go down. I volunteered, she sent the born and bred MN down instead even though she begged to stay with her family in MN.

        That person quit 8 months later and moved back to MN.

      5. Phoenix Programmer*

        I asked SM for a job description for (my job) II. I got called into an agendaless meeting with SM, SMs boss, and HR.

        I asked what the meeting was about and SM says “You will see.”

        SM launches into minor or vague complaints. Stuff like someone sometime ago said you upset them

        Finally I speak up and ask – am I being disciplined? What is this meeting about?

        HR rep gets really vocally uncomfortable – “you weren’t told what this meeting is about?”
        SM goes back into her listing of petty grievances. Then HR stops her “That is not what this meeting is about. It’s supposed to be a career progression meeting so let’s refocus.”

        Next 5 minutes is, keep doing what you are doing only without stepping on nameless people’s toes. Then they end the meeting.

    9. atacrawl*

      My last boss was a real piece of work… we had just wrapped up an 18 month project that dozens of people worked on, so the lead project manager sent out an email thanking everyone who worked on the project. She failed to include our boss, even though it was clear that this was meant as a high visibility thank you to the people down in the trenches (lots of VIPs were CC’d). Literally no one was like “oh damn, she didn’t thank our boss.” Well… our boss berated her in his office about how “betrayed” he felt by his exclusion. A real leader would have merely replied all and thanked the project manager. This idiot threw a temper tantrum. Glad to be gone from there.

    10. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      After I gave my notice at my last job (standard two weeks, no fireworks and it shouldn’t have been a shock) my boss LITERALLY did not speak to me the rest of the time. She wasn’t hostile, per say, but she had been pretty friendly toward me up until then.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Same. She also called out sick on my last day so she didn’t have to say goodbye.

      2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Oh, and then she tried to torpedo me when I used her as a reference in a later job search. Didn’t work though so the joke’s on her!

    11. juliebulie*

      Not my current boss, but another I’ve griped about before:

      For employee anniversaries we’d get to pick something out of the company’s catalog of recognition gifts. I picked a watch.

      My anniversary came and went. I forgot about it for a while. Then I contacted HR to ask how I could get in touch with the company that ships these things. They told me that the gift had already arrived a few months ago and was given to my boss.

      When I asked my boss about it, he admitted that he just didn’t want to give it to me. (Cuz he didn’t like me. Once told me so, to my face.)

    12. Mediamaven*

      How is that petty? Sounds like the person wasn’t professional so the boss didn’t feel like going. A going away party is not a right.

  26. Grandpa Lawyer*

    I haven’t interviewed since the 90s – how long should I be waiting to hear back after a third interview? It’s for a senior position with a Fortune 50 company. Should I be expecting to hear back? I’m continuing to interview, but my expectations are mired in a pre-Internet world with a foggy memory. I know they aren’t obligated to let me know anything but I am so out of my depth here so my expectations are low. Thanks!

    1. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I think if you don’t hear back after a couple of weeks, you can let it go. I do think timelines are frequently stretched to weeks if not months for the senior positions (although I’m in higher ed so may be different). But keeping expectations low is key, so sounds like you’re on the right track already. I hadn’t interviewed since the 90s either when I landed my current position and the whole process was a real eye-opener. Thank heavens for AAM.

    2. LKW*

      There are so many dependencies it’s really hard to say. Given that it’s a senior position, I have to imagine the decision makers are fairly high up in the organization. Depending on their schedules, they may have interviews, conferences and critical activities that make it difficult to finalize any decision.

      I say, if you don’t hear back within a month, do a check in.

  27. Washi*

    Making friends with older coworkers question! I’m in my late 20s and when I meet someone at work my age who seems cool and that I want to be friends with, I’m pretty good at putting out feelers, inviting them to lunch, etc and developing the friendship.

    But when the person is 40-50+ I feel really hesitant to start that process because I feel like maybe they won’t want to be friends with someone so much younger, maybe I can’t pick up on their hints…I don’t know, I just get nervous. Anyone else made friends with a coworker with a biggish age gap? Anything I should do or not do?

    1. Aquawoman*

      What exactly is your concern? As a 53-year old, I’m sort of … just a 28 year old with 15 years experience. I have teens so I may even understand your slang :)

      1. Washi*

        I think I just get much more worried that they wouldn’t want to be friends with me! Like, I’m not super open to developing close friendships with high schoolers, and that’s, if anything, a smaller age different. I’m married and am, I think, relatively mature, but I worry that I seem similarly baby-ish to my older coworkers. And I think I have a probably-inaccurate assumption that other late 20s/early 30s are more open to new friends and people in their 40s/50s have all their friends settled and don’t want new ones. So the responses below from older folks who like being friends with people my age are reassuring!

        1. Emmie*

          You and your coworkers have something in common: work. This changes the dynamic a bit. You are their peer, or close to it. You probably do not have much in common with high schoolers. There’s such an experience gap there especially with you being married, and beyond that phase of your life. Now that I am out of my 20s, I realize I feel awkward reaching out to my younger colleagues, but I should get over that too.

        2. TooTiredToThink*

          I’m in the lower age range of the group you are talking about and awhile back I randomly connected with some women in the higher end of that age range …. and we have a blast together.

          A lot of times its more about life stages (kids/no kids/single/married) that allows people to connect to each other. If you are more into being out all hours of the night, drinking, etc…. then, sure you might find it harder to connect with someone who is no longer into that, but really its more about finding out what the common interests are. Do you both like books? Start a book club. Movies? Start a movie club? Foodies – go out to eat. Etc…

        3. juliebulie*

          I’m 51 and most of my “friends” have died, faded into the Facebook abyss, moved away, etc. I could use some fresh brains.

          Not to say that I wouldn’t like some new friends my own age too, but as long as you’re old enough to hold a conversation, that’s a good enough starting point for me.

        4. emmelemm*

          Honestly, as someone in the 40-50 range, that’s about the time where you’ve lost touch with a lot of friends along the way because life was fast and furious for a while and/or you’re just older and tireder and can’t party on the weeknights.

          Being friends with a coworker is a low barrier because you can do lunches with them etc. and they’re just right there! And maybe you don’t have a ton in common, or maybe you do. If you’re married and a little bit settled, at least, you may have more in common than you think. Just don’t Snapchat at us.

    2. miss_chevious*

      As an “older” colleague, just ask them to lunch or whatever you would do with your younger coworkers and take it from there. Many of us are delighted to be friends with people younger than us, and it’s nice to not have to make the “first move” because, depending on the roles in the organization, that can put a compliance burden on younger colleagues.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      I’m almost 50 and my youngest friends are in their mid or late 20s. We like the same shows or books or workouts – sometimes we just hit it off! I am so glad I have been open to friends of all ages as it has made getting older feel much more “normal” rather than just a big pack of people in my life getting old at once. Just treat someone you would like to be friends with the same as you would treat someone your own age. Good luck!

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’m in the older age range, and I have some work friends who are your age. I think there may be more of a big brother/sister vibe, because the younger people are much earlier in their career and life in general, for example they don’t have teenage kids, and often don’t have kids at all. Just be aware that if they’re married with kids, and you’re single, their time outside of work will be really limited compared to yours. (I mean, you’ve probably already experienced that with peers who dated/cohabited/married/had kids earlier than most, but it will probably be more pronounced.)

      Anyway, I say go for it! They may be hesitant because if they’re senior to you at work, they don’t want to make YOU uncomfortable. And of course, if you report to them they may want to avoid socializing with you outside of work to avoid any appearance of favoritism, but that depends a lot on your workplace.

    5. Kathenus*

      I would just think of them as a person and forget the age, and reach out however you would for any coworker you wanted to look to develop a friendship with. Reverse the situation, if they wanted to put out feelers to you to get together you wouldn’t want them to second-guess this due to your age, right? So just proceed with your overtures to friendship, don’t worry about the age (or any other differences you might have) at all. Good luck.

    6. LKW*

      I’ll be the first to say that I like when my younger colleagues invite me out but I’m usually exhausted and often decline. But ask anyway, everyone likes to be included and although you may be the age of their children, I’m sure you can find common ground.

    7. Alianora*

      In my mid-20s and I’ve definitely made friends with older coworkers. It’s not really a much different experience than being friends with coworkers your own age.

      Obviously, you don’t want to insinuate that they’re old, but other than that I don’t have any age-gap specific advice. I would honestly just invite them to coffee the same way you would with anyone else.

    8. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I’m in my 50s and several of my work friends are in their late 20s to mid 30s. But everyone is different. In my case, I made sure it was obvious I was interested in lunch/dinner/whatever, or would do the inviting. If you aren’t getting good friendly vibes from some of your older colleagues, they may not be interested. I’d say generally do whatever you do with your younger friends, and trust your gut!

    9. Reba*

      Coffee! I find that getting into a different setting makes it easy to be more informal with each other, even if you start out talking work stuff. Fortunately for mere, there are a coffee options in our very building and nearby, so this can be pretty impromptu and low stakes.

      Not that I’m a pro at this, just that I’ve really enjoyed coffee chats with colleagues in different generations.

    10. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I’m surprised the 40-50 year olds haven’t reached out to you first. when I was in my 20’s the 40-50 year olds always befriended me first. They would ask if I wanted to go to lunch, they were genuinely interested in me and were somewhat protective of me etc. Now that I’m a 5o something, I find myself befriending the younger workers– passing down my knowledge, looking out for them etc. and we get a long just fine. Sometimes the office can be a great equalizer.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This is what always happens to me in the workplace (I’m early thirties) and I like it when my older colleagues reach out to me and invite me to lunches/coffee/etc. Many of them end up taking on mentor roles not just at work, but in my life in general, and I’m very grateful to the ones who’ve offered me invaluable career advice and validation that my choice to remain single is a good one! Lol.

    11. OrigCassandra*

      I’m 47, and absolutely happy to make new friends of any age! If it helps at all, some of us Olds have complementary worries — that we’ll be overbearing, that we’ll misread you and mentor where it isn’t wanted or needed, that we won’t have anything to talk about that you’re interested in.

      Bridge the gap if you want to! Go for it! I for one am always grateful for a new work buddy.

    12. kittymommy*

      I feel like this question was made for me (I can finally give an opinion I have knowledge in!!).

      I am in my mid-40’s, no kids, not married/partnered, so my social demographics are a lot different than many people my age and have been for a while. As such most of the people I hang out with in and out of work are either in their late 20’s or in their late 50’s+ and it’s fine. I have found that the lifestyle and obligations I have fit much more to those much younger or much older = more free time, less familial obligations (they haven’t started a family or their kids are grown and out of the house), less likely to have familial financial obligations, and much more likely to be able to do things on the spur of the moment. In fact I just had a co-worker pop her head in (I think she’s 30-31) and ask if I wanted to grab drinks with her after work.

      I think if you think they seem like a fun, cool person to hang out with just ask. You never know. Some of my strongest, long-lasting friendships happened with a group of women I met at a bar (we were all their on the same night every week for a drink special). The youngest is about 18 years older than me; the oldest is probably 37 years older.

    13. Sleepytime Tea*

      I’ve made quite a few friends at work that are a few decades older than me. :) We have something in common – our work. Age isn’t really a big factor when it comes to being work friends. They may or may not want to be friends with you, and that is unlikely to have to do with your age unless you are particularly immature or something, which it doesn’t sound like you are.

      Put out feelers just like you would to anyone else, and take any accepts/declines with the same level of “not a big deal either way!” that you would give anyone else.

    14. LLG612*

      I’m 35 and my friends range in age from around 25 to 60+. Many of those are former work colleagues. Just invite someone to coffee! Age is just a number. My best friend in the world is 53 this year and aside from some cultural references, we share similar interests and just get each other. I was hired into higher-level roles pretty much right out of grad school and I sort of had to fake it til I make it with confidence and imposter syndrome in my early 20s. I just went for it and invited interesting people to coffee and was so pleasantly surprised by my experiences. Go for it!

    15. Natalia*

      I think they’d want to be friends..maybe invite them to lunch or coffee. They may be less willing to want to go to a concert or clubbing.
      Then again, age is just a number….
      And the worst they can say is no

  28. N-SoCal*

    The football diaries apparel vent.

    Per company policy, we can wear our sports themed attire the game day of/business day before if weekend.

    A coworker who is a fan of a different team will constantly bring up their team, engaging others in talk etc. This isn’t an issue, except they don’t like it when their team is not successful or has shortcomings. It’s to the point now where if you wear your team, they make a comment, and exhibit behavior that you’re doing it on purpose to rub it in their face. No, I am wearing my shirt within company policy. Their success or loss isn’t directly affected by anything I do.

    I’m just tired of this person acting like a sore loser because their team lost a game.

    1. Antilles*

      That’s ridiculous. If you want to bring up your team and talk about it a lot, that’s fine, but part of being an overly proud fan is accepting the times when your guys got their tails handed to them. And you certainly don’t go off on someone else for wearing their own team’s colors unless you’re wearing a shirt with last year’s game score or something.
      …That said, the sports fan in me would love to know what team it is, because surprisingly, such behavior seems to be common among middling teams where it’s like “wait, your team is like 7-5 every single year, how have you not learned how to handle losing?”

    2. Joielle*

      There’s one person at my office who’s like that and I hate it so much. They’re just so loud and aggressive about it. I obviously don’t mind if people talk about their hobbies, but do you have to be a jerk about it (even if “joking”)?? I have no advice but lots of sympathy. Personally, I told them my cube is a soccer-only zone.

    3. Angwyshaunce*

      Humans are tribal creatures, and many who take it to the extreme lack the self-awareness needed to realize how primal those instincts are.

      I personally would tell such a person, after bragging that “their” sports team won, that they are not in fact a part of the team.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        Yes Bob. You yelling at the television personally contributed to the player carrying the foosball over the goal line.

  29. DaniCalifornia*

    I find out today if I get a great job. It’s looked like a yes from the first interview (I had 4!) and we’ve been talking since end of July. It’s a brand new role and the company/their culture is amazing, my recruiter only has positive feedback from them and is sure I’ll get it as I’m the only candidate they are looking at. It would be such a blessing to be able to leave my toxic job and grow into this role. They just want to make sure they have a plan of action before on boarding and have success on both sides which I really appreciate. I told them I understand if I have to wait a bit to start. I won’t go up and quit my job…I just want a yes or no at this point. I’m totally happy with a yes and wait. It’s really hard to concentrate at work today.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Good luck to you! I was in your position just five months ago – I ended up with the job. I hope you have the same result :)

  30. FinallyFriday*

    Just found out my company is once again making sweeping changes about work hours with basically no notice. Apparently they asked some managers what their thoughts were and my boss responded for our entire team without asking any of us if it would be an issue. Ugh.

  31. Adobe Design ideas?*

    I need to brush up on my Adobe Design skills. Do you have any recommendations for channels on
    YouTube to follow?
    I used to be able to modify existing material confidently and that’s the level I am aiming for.
    (I don’t have the programs now so I can’t just play around, work will provide them for a series of small projects we are starting in October.)

    1. MissBliss*

      If you do a free trial of LinkedIn Learning, I really enjoyed their Adobe InDesign videos. PHLearn on YouTube has saved my butt a few times, too.

    2. Lizabeth*

      I can’t recommend any videos but I LOVE and TRUST my Quick Start books on InDesign, Illustrator and Photoshop. They’re so easy to refer to for something I don’t know.

      PeachPit Press puts them out.

    3. Nanc*

      Check with your local library. They may subscribe to Gale Courses, Lynda or one of the other training databases. I’m currently going through Google Analytics training (somewhat reluctantly–who uses some of that stuff?!). What I like about Lynda is you can download the app and course and watch it on your tablet or computer even if you’re offline.

    4. Blue sky*

      I work mostly in Photoshop, illustrator, and XD, so the tutorials I watch are centered on those, so not sure if these will be helpful, but I hope so! My go-to channels are:

      Tutvid (Photoshop, Illustrator, Lightroom, AfterEffects, etc)
      Caler Edwards (XD)
      Adobe’s YouTube channel

      Also, off of YouTube, I check for tutorials on tutsplus and Spoon Graphics once in a while.

    5. Design Dork*

      I second spoon graphics and adobe’s YouTube channel. The best thing to do would be to familiarize yourself again with the “jargon” so when the time comes and you run into an issue, you are able to Google the specific question to get the right answer quickly. Lynda is also great

    6. LadyGrey*

      If you’re still checking this thread- Adobe offers free trials of most of their programs, including InDesign. It’s also hirable per month if you want to spend money on it, but there doesn’t seem to be a limit to how many free trials you can have. Just remember to cancel before they start charging!
      This is how I got confident with InDesign, good luck!

  32. Grandma Mazur*

    Request for advice on how to develop strategic thinking

    (I’m hoping this won’t be so vague and anonymous that it’s a pointless question to ask…)

    I’ll be starting a new role (lateral transfer – I’ve been at this level for the last few years) in the new year and the core requirements are all corporate strategy-related. I’m not sure that I have a natural talent for spotting what the „strategic moves“ are in any given situation (like, I know that X is pointless and we can save time and effort if we stop doing X, and I might know which could be the best arguments to persuade people of that, but I’ll completely miss that by doing X, we persuade someone else to do Y and Z with us and they more than offset the costs of X in terms of value to us, in publicity or funding, or whatever).

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s *just* failing to see the big picture (although some of it is that), it’s often not understanding other actors‘ priorities, or that they are not just going to be persuaded by the force of the better argument and so on. To give another example, someone I worked with tangentially who is a level higher than me is apparently known for being an empire-builder (I was told this when I started in the role that worked with her), so I know that she likes to acquire staff and responsibility and make herself and her position important and visible. But I wouldn’t, I think, have spotted that as her driver or motivation by myself (I assume everyone’s just trying to do the best job they can).

    This gap in my skill set became clearer to me when I had a practice interview for an internal promotion and was asked the question „how would you go about doing X?“ and I said „first I’d do A, then B, then C“ and was told „that was a good process-driven answer but for a role at this level, we’d want to see you demonstrate a strategic awareness that you need to be taking F, G and H into account before you begin”. I actually think that it was a poorly-worded question if they didn’t want a how-to answer but it made me look differently at the questions in general and understand more a ihr what they were looking for/expected to hear- and, after three unsuccessful interviews for roles one step up, after this practice interview, I got the very next post I applied for.

    So, I can understand strategy when someone explains it to me but I don’t think I’m good (yet) at spotting it proactively.

    What are some activities, prompts, questions to ask myself, that I can use to stimulate this way of looking at work problems? Books and recommendations for reading also welcomed! Any way of strengthening the strategic analytical muscles will be appreciated.

    Thanks!

    2. starsaphire*

      Not sure about book recommendations per se, but… do you play board games?

      Not everyone loves chess (the classic strategic-thinking game!) but a lot of newer board games involve a great deal of strategy. Puzzling out not only what your best move is three moves ahead, but what the other players are likely to do in their next couple of moves so you can plan accordingly. I’d recommend a game like Seven Wonders to start.

    3. LQ*

      Apparently I do ok at strategy? My way of doing it is to really stop and put myself into the mindset as best I can of a range of folks and what the impact would be. “I’m sitting in the ceo’s chair and I just got asked about what the changes are going to be for 3 years from now on cookies and the email that just popped up about tarriff impacts on the chocolate market and I really need to restructure the operational team to be more in line with more automation, now…question…” And then shift and think about the CIO and whatever the other C levels are. And yes, you absolutely have to take time to build up some model of these folks in your head. You know the cio has been around forever and climbed through the ranks, but the ceo has a new job every 2-3 years, etc. Know the role, but understand a bit about the person who holds the rank too, and being able to parse those out. I go for what does the role care about in direction and what does the person care about in presentation of it.

      I also go for always pausing a minute to think about what someone is really trying to get at and both how do we hit the short term goals but how do we keep our eyes on the distance and keep walking in a straight line. If you are always pointing in the right long term direction, it’s more ok if you need to step to the side a bit here or there. Which you have to kind of really shift your brain to see if you’re used to looking down a lot.

      I also kind of let my anxiety run rampant when I think about the projects and it does a surprisingly good job for me. Not really a highly recommended thing, but if you got it, make it pay the rent.

    4. Hillary*

      I like LQ’s recommendations a lot – I do something similar. I extend it to lower levels in the org and try to think about everyone in the process. PM stakeholder analysis forms are pretty close to what I do, along with a weird variation on a five why. Basically I try to go over the process as far upstream and downstream as possible, think about every single stakeholder and if I need to loop them in. Then I sell them on either way it’s better for them or (if it’s not) why it’s better for the company as a whole. I think about their motivations/incentives and how they’re aligned to the project.

      Someone might be an empire builder, but to some extent that’s every leader. They want to look good to their boss or the board, hit their metrics, get their bonus, and if they’re not already CEO get promoted. So what are their metrics? In the example below if the groomers are incented to groom as many llamas as possible, they’re not going to want to implement a llama spa grooming that takes twice as long because they won’t have enough time to meet their quota. But if they’re measured on revenue and the spa grooming costs three times as much they’ll get on board.

      Who’s affected if we change the llama grooming process?
      – the llama groomers of course
      – scheduling is before grooming – does that process change?
      – invoicing is after – what about them?
      – receivables?
      – how about the reporting that comes after invoicing?
      – do we need new supplies?
      – What about tools? do we need more llama shear sharpening?
      – does this impact our data?
      – does it fit with our marketing campaigns? corporate mission?

      I practice this mentally with situations at work and in the news or blogs, and I talk it through with my coworkers.
      As part of this I choose to assume positive intent and that everyone wants to do the right thing, we just don’t agree yet about what’s right. In terms of books, The First 90 Days is excellent.

      1. LQ*

        This is a really good set of questions, but the biggest thing that seems missing to me is the risk mitigation part of it. You can assume positive intent, but you still have to think about failure (and you can do it, mostly, without thinking about people being bad).
        – You have to think about what happens if this goes wrong?
        – What happens if the industry for llama grooming tanks?
        – What liabilities are we opening ourselves up to?
        – How would a nefarious actor take advantage of this process? (Ok this one you have to think about bad people being bad and doing bad things, but you should definitely try to not let that seep into everything else.)
        – What happens if the supplies are all delayed?
        – Will this adversely impact any populations? (Really think this one through, are you through unconscious bias creating something that will negatively impact a protected class, or just people you don’t want to hurt?)
        – How can we make this process fail gracefully?
        – What happens if a link in the process breaks down? Does all the work come to a halt or can we create some things to mitigate that?
        – How do we ensure that everyone who will be impacted by the process change feels like they were included so we don’t have people doing something like a work slowdown?
        – How does this look if it ends up on the news?
        – Does making this change prevent us from making future changes? (And if so are they GOOD things to prevent or bad things? I’m very much a go ahead and burn the boats kind of person, but you better know what you are doing when you flick that match!)

        Some of this is more specific to the process, but some of it is still going to be think about it from the CEO/etc/etc point of view. Sometimes the answer is, “UGH why are you bothering me with this nonsense?” in which case I realize I haven’t framed the problem well and that makes all the difference when you are looking strategically.

    5. CM*

      I think the key is to stop thinking of it as something your brain should just do auromatically, and try to figure out a good decision-making process to follow (one that includes consultation, risk analysis, goal alignment, etc). Then, follow the process and analyze whatever info you uncover to figure out your best options.

      From what you describe, it sounds like the other piece is pursuasive argument, which is different from strategy and more about reading people and judging what will convince them. That’s harder to learn, but you could try to develop a process of researching the person ahead of time (which can include asking other people for their impressions), analyzing that person’s goals, having a preliminary convo where you ask about their goals, etc.

  33. Charlotte*

    Has anyone ever done a health assessment at work? Like one of those where they measure your height/weight/blood pressure and possibly a (finger-prick) blood test? I’m not entirely sure what the purpose of doing one of these at work would be (result are kept private). It’s supposed to raise awareness around health I think?

    1. CatCat*

      I’ve done it. I am kind of a regular check-up procrastinator so I found it convenient to get this basic health assessment done at work. I did get some valuable info and one of the blood test (non-fasting) results prompted me to actually schedule that check-up for more in-depth info.

    2. Quill*

      I went to a health fare that told me my hearing sucked… in the middle of a very noisy lunch room with allegedly “sound dampening” headphones that weren’t.

      I wasn’t concerned, needless to say, but I did get my flu shot.

    3. BadWolf*

      I’ve done it on occassion I think it’s a mix of good PR (we care about your health) and a convenience thing if you don’t go to a annual physical.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      A former job of mine offered these, and the benefit of doing so was a reduce rate for insurance. I didn’t get much out of it, but I appreciated the lower monthly payment for insurance benefits ;)

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      We have that every year at my (and my husband’s) work. It is part of the insurance open enrollment process – if we check off 3 specific boxes (certification of non-smoker status, online health evaluation form about lifestyle, and an on-site bio metric screening similar to what you would normally go to your GP for) we get a significant reduction on our health insurance premiums. Except for the smoking thing, if you do it you get the reduction even if everything is in the red.
      I find it super convenient that it is right downstairs and the company that comes it is VERY serious about privacy and confidentiality. No leaving the office for an appointment and no co-pays or fee to complete forms.

    7. Evil HR Person*

      Sometimes, the company gets a break in their health insurance premiums if they have a lot of participants. Most times, it’s the employees who get a break in their premiums, not the company. Are they offering you something in return for submitting to this? It might be a gift card or they might spell it out, like “we’ll deduct $25 less per pay period if you do this.” Even though I’m a benefits administrator, I wouldn’t ask my employees to consider doing this unless there was something for them to gain.

      The overall purpose is to gauge the health of the employee population, pure and simple. If they’re all overweight and diabetic, then they’ll (presumably) cost more than if they’re all average and healthy. Although, I’m average and healthy and I just cost our insurance $130K, so whatever. (Yes, I realize I’m cynical and it’s ironic because I work in benefits…)

    8. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      My health insurance offers a fairly hefty discount for those who do it, and we can get them done at work to simplify things. I’m not terribly fond of doing it that way, but it is a lot easier than scheduling an appointment (always at an inconveniently distant lab somewhere) and driving half an hour in either direction for a 5-minute process.

    9. juliebulie*

      My employer penalizes us $50/month on our medical insurance if we don’t do this test. They do say that it’s to encourage us to be aware of our health, but we can already accomplish this by visiting our own doctors.

      My employer says that’s fine, I can still get the credit if I have my doctor(s) forward my test results to this third party company that does the health assessments. The assessment also includes a lengthy health questionnaire for us to fill out.

      So, this is not really about MY awareness of my health. It is about the third party’s awareness of my health.

      Apparently this information is worth a great deal to this third party in ways that are not disclosed to us.

    10. Gatomon*

      Yes, my companies have always offered either a discount on the insurance or points towards the wellness program for participation. After one year where all of our blood samples were screwed up, I no longer take the results seriously. (We were all told we needed to see our PCP’s ASAP because we were extremely sick, so many of my coworkers scheduled appointments and more expensive blood tests before the testing company realized what happened and told us. And then insurance didn’t want to cover the cost of all the doctor’s appointments and follow-up tests ordered by everyone’s PCP’s because they weren’t medically necessary! It was a real cluster.) My current company is a “points” company and I’ve never come close to reaching the point goal in order to get the base reward, which is just company swag, let alone the top-tier goal which is an extra day off. This has got me rethinking why I even bother with the whole thing.

    11. School Psych*

      They offer them at my job, but I didn’t do it. People who did them the previous year said the metrics were really sensitive and they ended up being at-risk for a bunch of things, even though their health was fine. My husband did one at his job and had a similar experience. The screener said he was at-risk for a bunch of things, but when he brought the results to his regular doctor, the doctor said it was just how the screener set the cut-offs and my husband was fine. Since I know several people, who found the results of these things to be not so accurate when they followed up with their doctors, I don’t think it’s a good investment of my time. Some people do find them helpful though.

    12. MissDisplaced*

      I just did one. We get a $300 discount on the healthcare insurance for doing so. The company has a day where you can do this onsite, however, you can also take the form to your primary care physician.

  34. RussianInTexas*

    Not asking for an advise, not much is to be done here, just a rant.
    My company is small (53 people, and this includes the warehouse personnel). So small, but been in business (manufacturing/distributing) for over 20 years, so not newbies. Yes, they are so unbelievably disorganized.
    I am a customer support/contract support rep. There are few of us here, each with her (all women) accounts and contacts. 3 weeks ago one of my counterparts resigned. On good terms, she was moving to another state. She put the notice in a week before leaving. It was presumed I would take care of her accounts while they are looking for a replacement because we both handle similar accounts, and no one else does this kind of customers.
    No one talked to me. I had to twist her arm to send me the list of accounts (they are not confidential between us!). My manager talked to me few days after she left (somehow we have different managers because I accidentally got assigned to the contracts/bids departments by HR and it was never fixed). According to him, no, we cannot monitor her inbox. No, she did not send out the notice she was leaving to her contacts, and no, this isn’t a problem. No, we cannot add “please e-mail to such and such” auto-reply on her e-mail. No, it’s OK I don’t speak Spanish even though some of her accounts are from Latin America. Just deal with it until we hire someone.
    I’ve been dealing with rather irritated customers for the last two weeks – their orders are going in to the black hole and no one is replying to them or contacting them in any way. I’ve been actually yelled at by couple of people. I do not like to be yelled at.
    And then yesterday I get a notice that 24 or her 26 accounts been permanently reassigned to me.
    I am now compiling the list of all customers I work with, contact names, details, notes, ect. For now just for myself. For the future – so some poor soul doesn’t get stuck like I have.

    1. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      I’d go straight to IT, because it is really simple to add an auto reply, or to forward her email to another.
      Keep track of the angry customers and your interactions, if you need to prove that you are not ignoring or failing to do your job.
      Like your manager is. Sheesh.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        We don’t have an IT department, due to the size of the company. We have “Sam”, the owner’s son, who “knows computers”.
        We also don’t have an actual HR either, but that’s a tail for another time.
        I am half-thinking of creating a transition-type document that I can hand over to them when I myself resign.

        1. Orange You Glad*

          I think this is a good idea. I’d also make a checklist of “These are the 5 steps needed when someone resigns/leaves”:

          #1 – Set up auto responders for their email
          #2 – Forward all their email to XYZ
          #3 – Return their office keys & badge
          #4 – Change passwords to A, B, & C
          #5 – Email all their accounts a notice that starting [date] their new contact is PersonA

          There is a magic to writing it down like it’s the most logical thing in the world and then asking your boss, “Is there anything else you want added to the transition checklist?”

          Because they’ve never done it the organized way before and it sounds like they think it’s too much work/won’t matter. But you have a really strong recent example to point to – and you can use numbers!

          “Out of the 26 accounts, I received angry phone calls from 12 of them and 4 of them called back multiple times. 8 of them lost orders and we had to pay rush shipping fees totaling $X to fix it. And 3 of them cancelled to switch to another company and we lost their total annual account revenue of $Y. Moving forward to prevent these issues from happening, I would like to implement this transitions checklist. This is the rough draft version I wrote; will you please review it and add anything you think I missed?”

    2. Tinuviel*

      Why don’t you forward the angry complaints to your manager? “It sounds like you are frustrated with our lack of a system for handling Belinda’s departure. Would you like to speak to my manager, who can better address your concerns?”

  35. Tired of This*

    On the heels of today’s earlier discussion of implicit bias…

    My company just released a mandatory online training (created by a third party) around ethical issues. It’s in a standard sort of format where you’re shown several situations that could be problematic and given questions about what the characters should do or what was wrong with what they did. As per usual, the ethnic diversity among the stock photos used as characters is much higher than what you’d find in my company, or in our area in general. Representation is great, right? Well, here’s the problem… there are so many minority characters that every single character who does something unethical or questionable is a POC or a white Hispanic person. The lone white male character is the one who stands up to his minority boss who is asking him to expense a dinner incorrectly.

    I’ll admit my fuse is on the short side about this because of a lot of other subtle racism in my area (it’s full of people who think they’re more progressive than they are). However, when we’re being asked to “avoid even the appearance of impropriety”, it sounds a bit hypocritical. I don’t think anyone handling our training has noticed it (that department doesn’t seem to contain many ethnic minorities, *strangely enough*) but since all employees must take the training, this is the subconscious message going out to everyone. I would really like to push back and ask the training team to have the third party swap out some of their stock photos. Does anyone have any ideas on how to bring this up without coming off as totally oversensitive?

    1. miss_chevious*

      This happened at my company, too — in an effort to increase diversity, they made almost all the people of color and the white women into the employees who weren’t following the policies! It was sort of funny and horrifying at the same time. I handled it by sending an email to the person who handles training for my department and saying “hey, I don’t know if you realize this, but this comes across like people of color and white women are making a lot of mistakes, which I don’t think is the message we want to be sending” and giving some specific examples. They thanked me and didn’t say much else, but the next time, the training had some white guys screwing things up, too.

    2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I worked somewhere that used a lot of third-party trainings (I can think of five companies I watched trainings from, while working at one company.) I ran some of these trainings, from a purchased curriculum, as well.

      I’d recommend getting the information from the organization who created the training, and write a letter/email to them with feedback. This is how the companies asked for feedback on their products, and it’s more likely to be addressed if you contact them directly.

      HR won’t be able to do much, they have to buy what’s available in their price range/from their insurance company/from their contracted provider and they have no say in the content.

    3. LKW*

      Mine is the exact opposite. In mine the straight white guy is the jerk in almost every single encounter. Except for the PoC manager who’s trying to date a subordinate. So it’s out there.

      1. Tired of This*

        To be clear, I don’t actually think it’s likely that this was intentional, just a misguided attempt to show more minorities in the training. Since it’s an ethics training, of course the characters will be doing things that are wrong/questionable, it’s just a bad look the way they did it. We just switched to a different training partner and it’s the first time I have noticed this.

    4. Zephy*

      Oooof. I think it’s worth flagging this with somebody. Is there an opportunity to provide feedback to either the third-party directly or to the training team to be relayed to them? Have you talked to any of your coworkers, did they clock the images as problematic as well?

      1. Tired of This*

        I’ll ask a few of them once they’ve had a chance to take the training (I did it right away to get it off my plate so they may not have seen it yet). My guess is that most of them won’t notice anything, or will only notice that there were many minorities in the photos, because my division isn’t exactly diverse. Of course, that’s precisely why I care about it.

    5. Design Dork*

      Yes, let them know!! I actually work in design and focus on racial equity and would totally want to know if this happened. I would recommend framing it as “hey I noticed in the training documents I notice this and while I think the intentions weren’t malicious, Im concerned that it sends the wrong subconscious message. Can we talk about it during the training or ask them to switch out some photos?” I actually think it’s a great opportunity to show how people “overcorrect” and the damage that can do as well. If you don’t raise the issue, it only reinforces the wrong kind of training. At the very least send a note to the 3rd party company. (I would also recommend that your company get training materials and trainers from a company that do this kind of stuff everyday as that’s the best way to ensure proper training, but I’m guessing that’s above your pay grade)

  36. Fortitude Jones*

    Thought I’d share a positive work story today:

    I had my weekly meeting with my dotted line manager this morning where he was telling me about a new project he wanted the two of us to begin tackling within the next couple of weeks. He then told me that not only am I invaluable to him, but that I’m also invaluable to the company. He said the company couldn’t function without me and our general counsel, who I work with on strengthening our company proposal language, because we catch things no one else in the company sees.

    Having come from a place where I was given projects that no one else wanted or the stuff that no one considered important because there wasn’t a massive $30m plus contract attached to it, it’s nice to be in a place where I’m being utilized to my full potential and appreciated for what I bring to the table. The leadership in my department has allowed me to start a handful of quality assurance initiatives that are proving to be successful day in and day out, and they’re even leaning on me to create our messaging to clients, which is deeply gratifying to know that every proactive proposal that goes out the door will have been written by me. I’ve only been in this role for four months and have already made an indelible mark on this place, which is something I couldn’t say at all about my last company.

    I absolutely made the right choice by moving on. I spent 17 months being bored out of my mind and essentially neutered because my then manager wanted to give all of the flashier projects to her friends. Now I’m doing things she wasn’t even allowed to do while making almost as much as she does, and I have to laugh. Life has a way of balancing the scales sometimes, it really does.

    1. new kid*

      I’m feeling this so much at my new position too. Whenever someone proactively reaches out for my input especially, I’m internally like, ‘you… actually value my expertise??’ Total 180 from the last position I was in.

      Anyways, congrats!! Glad you’re in the situation you’re in now.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Ha! I have that same internal discussion. And when my manager sent out a group email calling me the “subject matter expert,” I was like, “Whaaaaat?” Lol.

        I’m glad you are also having this experience :)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        He does often and in strategy meetings with high-level stakeholders, which is why I really like working with him (and what’s really cool is he’s the heir apparent being our CEO’s son and all, so hopefully when he moves on up, he’ll take me with him, lol).

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      EXCELLENT to hear. This is one time we can hope a company does a 360° review so you can say the manager does feedback right.

  37. Rene*

    I recently saw a job posting where, in addition to sending a resume, transcript and work references, the posting requested one-page explaining “How working at [company] fits with my career goals.” This feels like a bit of a strange requirement to me. Is it? The job is for a consulting position.

    3. Dasein9*

      I grew up near a famous evangelical university/television program, where all applications at all levels included a section on “My Personal Relationship With Jesus,” and this sounds like that, but without the religion.

      It’s more likely they want to make sure you’re a good cultural fit and not a flight risk the moment they get you trained than a judgement of your ideology, though.

    4. Dancing Otter*

      Consulting: career or step on the way to something else?

      A lot of consultants are straight out of an MBA program, and only stay a few years. Some firms want it that way, especially if that MBA is a name brand they can highlight on their proposals.

      Others are people taking something, anything, to pay the bills until they can get another corporate job. They can bring in good experience and expertise, and add significant value while they’re there, but they are definitely flight risks.

      Then there are people like me who actively like the consulting role, and want to do that forever. Ideally, they bring significant expertise, either in an industry or a subject, or they are good at project / team management, or they are good at client management (or a combination). They like to bring their skills to different projects for different clients, and would quickly become bored in a corporate job.

      That question is an attempt to find out which type you are. If you are the second type, I would couch it in terms of exploring different industries or different areas of your profession. Otherwise, just be honest: different firms want different things.

  38. Meddling Marketer*

    My boyfriend (John) is a stand-up comedian, and he won a big competition two weeks ago. So far, there has been no local press coverage of his win; part of the problem is, John is also a freelance writer and covers the comedy beat in the local newspaper and he can’t write about himself.

    John is a great comedian and writer, but he is bad at self-promotion, whereas I have a background in marketing. I told him he should tell the newspaper about his win, so somebody else could interview him — I think it’s important for his comedy career that this get covered, sooner rather than later (pretty soon it won’t be “news” anymore)! But, he feels uncomfortable bragging about himself…

    I think I know the answer to this is going to be a resounding “no,” but I need to ask anyway. Would it be way too intrusive for me to send an email to the newspaper recommending they interview John?

    1. Toodie*

      Maybe John could write up his win in first person, as a kind of column? Describing how the contest went and so on–I would think it would be interesting to read a comedy writer’s description of the experience.

      2. Meddler*

        I agree, but he is too “humble.” This is a recurring conversation in our relationship (haha). He rarely allows me to impart my marketing expertise on him. Thanks for the suggestion though!

    3. Reba*

      Sorry, no. You can lead a horse to water etc.

      But share the news as widely as you want on your social channels and so on.

    4. Aggretsuko*

      Former newspaperperson here: kinda? I do think it does seem biased for his OWN paper to cover him, on some level, unfortunately. If it was their idea, maybe, but the girlfriend’s? Erm….you can’t be the one to say it, I think.

      I like Toodie’s example of him writing it as a column, if that would be allowed.

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      A personal perspective, rather than a professional one: I absolutely *loathe* anyone trying to take away my agency. It’s my career and I get to choose what I do (or don’t) with it.

      Suggesting you or he reach out is fine; doing it without his consent or after he says “No” would would be a breach of trust in my opinion.

  39. Frustrated Today*

    I’m hoping someone can help me with this situation.

    Recently, a toxic person left the department. He was here for many years and was pretty much protected and handled with kid gloves by the higher ups. He didn’t like the change in management (me) and quit without notice. Based on what I’ve observed, interactions with him, and everything I’ve heard from others—and it’s A LOT—he was the cause of most of the drama within the department.

    In talking to others, the consistent theme I’ve heard over and over again is that my department is known for drama, is the “golden child” that gets whatever it wants, and can do no wrong in the eyes of upper management. This is not good, of course. I don’t want us to have this reputation, and it’s awkward even though this person is now gone.

    My question is how do I go about fixing this? I know we need to behave in a way that will restore us to everyone’s good graces. But I also want the team to know we have this reputation. I want to talk to them about how we can shake it; get my point across that it’s a very small world and they need to be mindful of what they say and do since one never knows with whom they’ll cross paths again; to keep in mind that there are multiple sides to one story; don’t be too quick to judge; etc.

    1. Username optional*

      I’d be surprised if your team doesn’t already know that the dept has that reputation. If this has been allowed to go on for years with no intervention by management then your team probably gave up on trying to fix it themselves long ago. As their new manager now would be an ideal time to talk with them about the way forward, your expectations, see what ideas they may have for the dept. I wouldn’t specifically mention problem child. Maybe phrase it along the lines of “now that I’ve had a chance to settle in I want to talk about the future plans for the dept”.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This. This should be a broader conversation with your team about how you see the department growing and in what direction you want to take it – I’d leave out the talk about how the rest of the company sees the team because, as was pointed out by others, your group already knows how their department is viewed in that company, trust. And if the toxic guy who just left was the main reason your department has such a crap rep, well, you definitely don’t want to lecture the remaining team about behaviors and treating others in the company with respect, etc. because they did nothing wrong and the person who did is now gone.

        Set expectations for your team and how you want to see them move forward, solicit feedback from them on their ideas for same, and then move forward. It’s a new regime and a new day – don’t get bogged down in the past if you don’t have to.

    2. Zephy*

      Your team probably knows about the reputation. They worked with Toxic Joe, they know what he’s like. Do you suspect Joe’s toxicity was allowed to infect the rest of the department, and some or all of them are behaving in similar ways when interacting with other departments? Do you have any concrete examples of the kinds of behavior you want or don’t want to see going forward? You know your team better than I, an internet stranger, do – do you get the sense that you’re going to need to lecture them, or could you approach it from the angle of “the reputation that we have is disadvantageous, how can we proactively take steps to repair the damage caused by Toxic Joe?”

    3. auburn*

      Probably worthwhile to read up on change management in general. But I’ve been in what sounds like a somewhat similar situation and made a lot of mistakes early on so might as well share them!

      I think I personally wasted a lot of time trying to fix the perception of problems rather than fixing the problems themselves if that makes sense. I was leading a group that had a bad reputation based on a really passive and lazy former manager and I was always worried about fixing the reputation of the group rather than just plowing through and fixing what wasn’t working. People under me had gotten sidled with bad reputations based on poor leadership and I had no idea if they were good at what they did or not because it was so clouded. All sorts of processes had been screwed up because people were trying to work around bad manager. But…the output of the group was actually good so some of the reputation was actually not accurate. And once everyone had decided bad manager was bad then everything got blamed on her even when the problems were sometimes other groups and their unrealistic expectations or poor understanding of what was on my groups plate. It was a real puzzle to figure out.

      Anyway, it’s still a work in progress but I think resetting and just going into interactions with truely open and not leading questions started to turn things around. What are the actual challenges for your group working across teams? What isn’t working in the workflow? The biggest mistake I made overall was letting people tell me how they thought we needed to fix the problems. A lot of people think they know how to fix what’s broken but are missing key parts of the big picture and if you accept their fixes early on you may be putting bandaids on stuff.

      Just focus on getting an accurate ID of the issues and what’s not working. Don’t worry about reputation right now. Confront bad behavior, like gossip or shit talking immediately. But don’t ask leading questions driven by assumptions based on what you’ve heard from others. Just go in with curiosity. Then once you’ve done that, both internally and externally, and assessed what is really broken you can work on fixes and then call people on any inaccurate perception of your team based on how things were handled in the past.

      1. Frustrated Today*

        Yeah, a lot of this is due to the close relationship between the previous manager and the toxic person. The drama came from Toxic Person, but the “golden child”/gets whatever they want/can do no wrong came from their relationship (not romantic or anything like that).

        Now that I’m thinking about it, I feel like I should just move on and let our actions speak for themselves. The team is aware of the drama factor, but I don’t think they’re aware of the other aspects of the team’s reputation. We do have new interns, though, which is part of why I wanted to say something about avoiding gossip and being mindful of our actions.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Well, you can still have that conversation with your interns in a “just an FYI” kind of way – just try not to get too caught up in giving them the backstory to why you’re mentioning it. They’re new, so they’re not coming in with the same baggage your current team has, and you don’t want to (inadvertently) negatively influence how they view your department.

  40. Can’t fix my boss*

    A few months ago, Allison answered my letter (link in replies) about if I could fix the way my boss treats people. I appreciated the frank advice from her and the AAM community and wanted to update everyone on what’s been going on lately.

    We recently attended a multi-day meeting with admins from organizations similar to ours. During a presentation from a colleague about an initiative he is trying to launch, my boss stood up, told him why he’s wrong, and explained how he thought it should be handled. He should have been shut down right away by the meeting facilitator, but unfortunately was allowed to go on long enough to completely mortify me and make everyone else uncomfortable. Later in the day, he publicly called me out for not sharing some information with the group in a very abrasive, demeaning way (what he didn’t know what I had already shared this information with colleagues at a previous meeting). I had several people come up to me after and tell me things like, “That was awful” and “You didn’t deserve that.” I felt bad and anxious and just…sad all weekend from it.

    On top of all this, I had my annual review at the end of August and while it was very positive, all he wanted to talk about were ways I could support the IT department. I’m not in the IT department. I’m not an IT professional. I was hired to do a very different job. It became clear that he does not value my skills, knowledge, or abilities and expects me to pick up tasks that no one else wants to do.

    But! There is a silver lining. Seeing my colleagues’ reactions to him in real time made me realize that he’s so much worse than I wanted to admit and that I DON’T deserve this. Everyone who commented on my letter was right. He isn’t going to change. He’s damaging my professional reputation. I’m not dealing with it as well as I thought. So earlier this week, my husband and I sat down and talked about where we would be willing to move to and what salary we would be willing to move for, and I’ve started a serious job hunt. I had been casually looking all year but made a lot of excuses—I’m not 100% qualified, there’s a recession coming and I have job security now, what if this job is just as bad—but I feel motivated and excited to dedicate myself to finding a new job.

    So send good vibes my way as I embark on my first major job search in seven years. I’m trying to trick myself into embracing the suck that comes with job hunting, so my goal is to be rejected for 15 jobs. Suggestions for rewards for meeting my goal are welcome :)

    2. Aquawoman*

      Good vibes sent! What was resonating with me is how much this is like a domestic abuse kind of situation where people start questioning themselves instead of the other person. I’m glad you could see that clearly and deal with it.

    3. Boba Feta*

      I *love* your job-search-goal framing to be *rejected* from so many positions, because of the implicit optimism and push that you will have *applied* to as many or more! I have good vibes aplenty this week and am happy to share!

      Good luck! (And good for you!!)

      1. Can’t fix my boss*

        I got the idea from an article in Outside magazine where the author mentioned her writer friend had a goal of having 100 submissions to literary magazines rejected. It forced her to submit to magazines she never would have considered, and she had pieces accepted by magazines that she thought her writing wasn’t good enough for. It’s going to force me to apply for stretch positions and I should get really good at writing cover letters!

        1. Mellow*

          I love this, too. Great philosophy and framework for managing expectations.

          Good luck to you, really. You’re making the right choice for yourself.

    4. MoopySwarpet*

      A new something for interviewing. Exactly what would depend on what you have and what you like. (My assumption is you are female because you mention your husband, but adjust accordingly if I’m wrong.) A new broach/pin/piece of jewelry, a scarf, shirt, pen/notepad, portfolio, briefcase/bag, happy hour with friends, dinner out, a weekend out of town, call in sick and goof off, picnic in the park, go to the movies . . .

      You could pick a few “treats” of varying cost and put them in jars to draw out. Or if you’d like to add an element of surprise, have your husband choose your “prizes” for your jars. I would imagine something like free, $10, $20, or whatever makes financial sense for your budget. You could then set parameters for each jar. The free jar is for getting x# email rejections with no additional contact, the next jar would be a rejection after a phone interview, up to rejection after x number of interviews.

      Good luck!!

      1. leeapeea*

        I love your framing here! Massages are my go-to big-ticket reward. I also like to buy dumb quirky things I don’t need but bring me joy as a reward – kitty-print canvas sneakers for completing this session’s courswork on time, airplane-shaped paperclips for getting through a MIND-NUMBING data entry project, etc.
        Thank you for the update and best of luck on your search!

  41. Temp Wannabe*

    Hi everyone! I posted a week or two ago about temp agencies, and I’ve got a second question. I applied to the three biggest national ones in my area via the directions on their website. What are the next steps? Do I wait for them to contact me and if so, how long? Or do I dig around for a phone number and call someone directly to discuss it further?

    Thank you!

    2. Forrest Gumption*

      Definitely get in touch with an actual person at each agency and either call or email them directly. They deal with so many candidates every week that if you do not make yourself known, you will get lost in the shuffle. Hopefully they will each call you in for an in-person interview, which further increases your visibility. Then after that do either weekly check-ins by email, or use their online portal to frequently update your availability.

    3. zora*

      They get so many inquiries, it’s okay to follow up a couple of times or try to call. Most agencies won’t be annoyed like a hiring manager would be. If you can find a number, do that first. And/or wait 2 weeks and send a followup email.

      But (you probably know this), be polite on the phone, and not like you’re demanding a response immediately. You definitely want to come off as considerate of their time, and willing to be as helpful as possible. The easier it is for them to work with you, the harder they will work to get you work!

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      If they have website, peruse it for postings that sound interesting to you and would match your skill set. Depending on the agency, the posting will tell you the name of the recruiter handling the account and will often have a link to their email address (OfficeTeam did this back in the day – not sure if they still do it). Anyway, once something catches your eye, call the agency and ask to speak to the recruiter about the requisition. They should put you through to the person, and then keep doing this every time you see something you like. Also make sure to arrange a time to come into the office to speak to them in person – the sooner they can put a face to the name, the easier it is for them to begin selling you.

      Good luck!

  42. Ladybug Whisperer*

    I was wondering how those without college degrees handle applying for jobs that say degrees are required. Do you just not bother? Do you address it in a cover letter? Just ignore the requirement and apply anyway? And have you been successful?

    For background I have over 20 years Administrative and Executive Assistant experience. In’m incredibly disappointed in how many postings say 4 year degrees, or more, are required. Curious what other’s experiences have been.

    Thanks in advance.

    1. Evil HR Person*

      I apply anyway, and I’ve gotten most of the jobs I’ve interviewed for. The thing is… the people that post the ad (usually in HR) are told by the hiring manager what it is they want to see on the ad. But, the people sifting through the applications (those same HR people) will look at experience first – unless it’s a role that truly requires a degree, like in science or healthcare. I know I don’t really care one way or another whether you have a degree for an admin position. If anything, I’d rather hire a person without a degree (at least in my line of business), because someone who’s an admin and has a degree will want to rise through the ranks, and I don’t have many ranks to offer for upward mobility.

      All that to say: apply anyway, and make your resume and cover letter shine. Don’t explain the negatives in a cover letter (don’t address your lack of degree). Tell them about your how awesome you were as the EA to the CEO of Llama Enterprises… :-)

    2. mreasy*

      I don’t hesitate to apply for jobs in my industry that ask for a degree in the field, because I have 15 years of experience. Your experience is worth way more than a degree in the subject matter, and a cursory look at your resume will show the employer what you have to offer instead of the degree.

    4. zora*

      Are you sure degrees are required for these jobs? Maybe it’s my region, but I think the majority of the job postings I see say “Bachelor’s Degree or equivalent experience.” In that case, I think 20 years is plenty of experience to be ‘equivalent’ to a degree!

      1. Ladybug Whisperer*

        Thanks. I have seen ads that say “degree preferred” or “equivalent experience” but I see far more where it says required. I’ve seen a few even where it’ll say ‘BA required, Master’s preferred’ so in those cases I don’t apply at all. It’s deflating but I guess I shouldn’t let that paralyze me.

        Even the company I’ve worked for for 4 years now, many jobs require a degree and they won’t budge on that at all, not even for a current employee with excellent evaluations.

    6. Kat in VA*

      Unless they make a big deal about BACHELOR’S DEGREE REQUIRED, WE WILL NOT EVEN LOOK AT YOU WITHOUT A BACHELOR’S DEGREE, I apply anyway. I only have a HS Diploma due to parents splitting up in my senior year and needing to, well, eat and have gas in my car as they did their thing. I’m also an EA and I don’t see where having any kind of college degree is all that helpful to the role we fill.

  43. I need a laugh today*

    How about sharing some bad interview experiences?

    I have two. The interviewer who asked me to name some of the college courses I had taken and then told me that really didn’t sound like a bachelor’s degree to him. (I went to a state university known in the area I was interviewing in, so it wasn’t a sketchy diploma mill or anything.)
    The second was the interviewer who asked if I had any questions about the job. I asked if she could describe a typical day in role. She spit out her drink and laughed out loud.

    1. The Original K.*

      I’ve posted about this here before, but I was in a group interview (didn’t know it was going to be a group interview ahead of time) that turned out to be an MLM scam pitch. We all walked out.

    2. Fikly*

      Oooh, oooh, pick me! Way back when I was interviewing for a job as a receptionist for a chiropractor, and he was asking what I majored in at college. Well, I majored in government and economics, but afterwards my interests shifted to healthcare. He then spent the rest of the interview telling me how I shouldn’t go into healthcare and should instead pursue healthcare and economics. I was so annoyed.

      Yes, white dude, tell me more what you think I, a young woman, should do with my life.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      It was just a part-time job while I was in college, but I asked the interviewer what their timeline was. She said “I don’t know; we’re going to advertise it again because we didn’t really like any of our applicants.”

      3. The New Wanderer*

        That’s awful.

        Kinda reminds me of a first date with a guy I met via online dating app, who commented on my advanced degree (from my profile) and asked me how I found guys to date who were comfortable with that. Um…

    4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I had this interaction during an interview:

      Me: I managed the LLAMA Rodeo at OldBarn, which provided free llama riding lessons for 500 low-income children in our community.
      Interviewer: But did you create this program? Did you build it from scratch?
      Me: It’s the signature outreach program of the American Llama Association and OldBarn has been a host site for the Rodeo for 30 years now.
      Interviewer: So you didn’t really do anything then, did you?

    5. Swiper*

      A personal favorite was when I must have interviewed right after someone who was less than honest on their resume. The interviewer introduced herself and said something like “Listen, I’ve heard a lot of bullshit today and won’t waste either of our time sitting here getting another snow job. Can you use X software or not? Don’t lie, you’ll have to prove it.” I had a hard time not laughing because she seemed deadly serious, just said yes and answered some technical questions and performed some basic tasks while she watched. She asked me nothing about anything besides technical skills and we parted ways but I emailed her the next morning and removed myself from consideration for that job.

    6. Alianora*

      For an unpaid internship: two interviewers. One lectured me about the history of the company for 20 minutes while the other rolled his eyes and texted. They asked me maybe two questions about myself, sniping at each other the whole time. On my way out, I mentioned that I had taken public transportation there and they were both SHOCKED. I felt like I had to explain that I did have a car and driver’s license but it was more convenient to take transit.

    7. Lucette Kensack*

      Not sure what kind of bad experiences you’re looking for, but here are mine:

      Me performing badly: I was interviewing with an internship with a policy think-tank, at the beginning of my graduate degree in public policy. They asked me to describe the differences between Medicare and Medicaid. I described the populations each program serves (seniors vs. low-income people) aaaaaaaaannnnd got it backwards. Just a total brain fart.

      An interviewee performing badly: I’ve written about him before, but I once interviewed a guy who described himself as “extraordinary” multiple times in his cover letter. He was like a caricature of an over-privileged rich white college dude. He leaned back in his chair, clasped his hands behind his head, spread his legs and crossed one ankle over his knee to receive our questions. At the end of the interview, the two male interviewers were thrilled by him and the two women were super turned off. Then, after the interview, he rounded up three or four people to call us to give preemptive references, including one who said I had to hire him because it “would be a tragic loss for [our state] to lose someone of his caliber,” and surely he would get hired away by, like, Harvard or something if we didn’t nail him down now. (And of course, after I didn’t hire him, he called to ask me why.)

    8. DAMitsDevon*

      When I was fresh out of college and desperate for a job (but still only focusing on jobs in the social justice/public health/nonprofit sector), I interviewed for a part time admin assistant position for an organization that provides networking opportunities and other resources for older women in the workforce to sort of push back against the ageism and sexism they face. Sounds cool, right? However, part way through the interview, the hiring manager flat out asked me, “Did you only apply to this job for the money?” Now granted, fresh out of college, my interview skills were probably not the best, but between that question and the general vibe of the interview, it felt like she was asking that not because she was skeptical about my interest in the organization, but because she was hoping she could find someone who would work for peanuts. I mean, I was applying to that job instead of something with better hours and pay, but sure, I was in it just for the money.

    9. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      This was my fault, not the interviewers, but it’s definitely my worst interview. In my very first job interview when I was about to graduate, they asked about my weaknesses…. I don’t remember what I was trying to convey, but what came out of my mouth was that I was bad at following directions. Needless to say, I didn’t get a call back.

    10. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Oh, and another time I was working with a temp agency (not knowing what a temp agency was). They called me in to work for the agency itself as a receptionist. They asked if I could do a working interview, and since I was only working 3 days a week then I said “absolutely, I could do next Tuesday or Thursday”. They were like “…no, we actually want you to come in all week and then we’ll decide whether or not to hire you.” Like, what?

      1. The Original K.*

        Oh! I’ve mentioned this too, but I interviewed for a role that was going to be vacant because the person in it was leaving to go to grad school to change careers. This had been known for months; the hiring manager had written her a recommendation. Her departure date was two weeks away. The hiring manager said she wanted all the candidates to work for a week, without pay, as part of the hiring process. She so clearly didn’t start hiring the process until a point where there was sure to be a gap between people and didn’t want to pay to hire a temp.

        (I said “Good for her!” about the person going to grad school and the boss said “Well, it isn’t good for ME.” I withdrew my candidacy when I got home.)

    11. knitter*

      I interviewed for a position with the hiring manager (A) and his boss (B), but at separate times. The job stated that it required a master’s degree. I interviewed with B first. From his description, I would be doing a job that matched education (master’s) and 15+ years of experience. Then I interviewed with A who told me basically the job for part of the year was to be a delivery driver for all the program sites. When I asked him a question, he told me it was stupid and got really angry at me for asking.

      I emailed the HR person the next day asking to be removed from the process. Even if B was correct and the job was a fit, I didn’t want to get in the middle of those two.

    12. The Original K.*

      One more:

      I interviewed for a job and the area around the place was under heavy construction, so at the start of the interview, the two interviewers and I were making small talk about how inconvenient the construction was, how it affected commutes, etc. I said something like “Well, they say it’s supposed to be finished in 18 months.” One of the interviewers, who was probably over 70, said “Hopefully I’ll be dead by then.”

      She said it completely straight-faced. I looked over at the other interviewer, who was sitting there with her mouth hanging open. I barely responded – I think I said “Oh, my” and changed the subject.

    13. Ladybug Whisperer*

      I once interviewed for an office assistant role for an accountant who’s original office assistant was now his partner.

      There was me and two other young women interviewing for the role at the same time, and while standing next to his partner, he says:

      “I need two sets of t*** here at all times. Two belong to her (motions to partner) and two belong to one of you.”

      Can’t make this stuff up.. I was young, so I said nothing but wow… I’m still shocked thinking about it!

    14. Emily S.*

      I had an interviewer act me this, in all seriousness:

      “I ask everyone this. Where do you see yourself in 5, 10, 15, AND 20 years?”

      He was awful.

    15. Mimi Me*

      OMG! I have a few: Years ago I managed retail stores and interviewed some interesting people:

      – One time there was a girl who had listed on her application that she was in school to be a plumber and that she wanted to open her own plumbing company. So I asked about that – what skills could she bring to the job she was applying for kind of thing. She stood up, kicked her chair back, and screamed “F— you! If you’re not going to take this seriously then I’m out of here” and then stormed out of the store.

      – I worked for the Warner Bros Studio store for many years and was interviewing for some seasonal help. One of the ice breaker questions we asked was “if you could be any WB character who would you be?” The kid – 16 years old – gave me the name of a Disney character. My co-manager who was doing the interview with me told the kid that the character was not a WB at which point the kid argued it was. It got heated for a few minutes because my co-manager was one of those “I gotta prove I’m right!” types and I ended up having to kick him out of the room.

      – I was interviewing a woman for a management job. She had nails that were like 4 inches long on each finger and one of her concerns was doing some of the physical tasks because of her nails – like opening the safe or cash registers. My district manager ended up hiring her – he had interviewed her first and didn’t listen to my concerns. She was fired about a month later when we were robbed in the middle of the night and she’d left the cash in the drawers because she couldn’t do register functions with her nails. There was a big investigation and no, the robbery and her hiring were unrelated, but given that he couldn’t get into the safe (where the money should have been!) it was a big deal.

    16. dealing with dragons*

      I had a Software Engineering interview for a consulting company where I didn’t have to do any whiteboarding (yay!) but the entire interview was on the minutiae of the languages for the job (JavaScript and Java). Halfway through the Java person decided I would be a better fit to be interviewed by the C# person (probably true, but the Java position was with React and the C# was with AngularJS. My skills are React > C# > Angular).

      Having not at all prepared for an Angular or C# interview/pop quiz, I thought I had done very well and hoped they’d take that into account. Nope.

      Oh well :)

    17. One of the Spreadsheet Horde*

      In college, one of the fancy pants management consulting firms was hosting a dinner the night before in a private restaurant room. The 30 or so interview candidates were split among a few tables, going around the table with everyone introducing themselves with their major and what they had done over their summer vacation. Everyone else at my table is Engineering or Finance with impressive Wall Street or major corporate internships. It gets around the table to me, the Psychology major who had retail and an unpaid internship, and the rep from the consulting firm shouted, “Oh you’re the Liberal Arts major!!” Then imagine dead silence in the room as everyone stares.

      Then in the interview the next day, the interviewer started the interview off with, “So why have you never worked a real job?”

      Needless to say, I didn’t get a second interview. Looking back, that was for the best.

    18. Coverage Associate*

      Interviewer asked a series of no-no questions about my religion, my husband’s religion, whether we had kids, did we own or rent our home. I hadn’t found AAM and couldn’t think of a polite way to get him to stop.

      Then he criticized my analytical skills, which have never been an issue ever, before or since.

      I declined the call back, and now at my new, better paying, reasonable job, my coworkers are going to win against him. I am just sorry I didn’t jump in before the file was assigned to someone else so I could beat him.

    19. kittymommy*

      I was interviewing for a job promoting a particular social program ran by the state (it was a grant funded contract with a limited time frame). I needed a job even though I wasn’t super excited and I’m also not very good at lying when put on the spot (I also suck and interviewing) so when they asked me something like how I though I would succeed in the job my answer was basically that I suck at sales but I can small talk with anyone and people seem to like me a lot (the feeling isn’t necessarily mutual) so it works out in the end. Amazingly I got the job and was the only one in the state that they wanted to extend past the contract end date.

    20. Mimblewimble*

      I had one where the recruiter sat in on the interview with me and the hiring team. Immediately afterwards, the recruiter pulled me aside and demanded that I verbally commit to the job. When I said that I’d have to have an offer before I committed to anything, the recruiter got upset and told me that if I didn’t verbally commit now the job might not be available. I held my ground and then withdrew from consideration as soon as I got home. Two weeks later I get an email from the recruiter, telling me I’d made it to the next round. He told me to submit a work assignment as part of the interview. I declined, and reminded him that I’d already withdrawn. Thankfully I didn’t hear back from him again.

    21. Gumby*

      – The time the candidate came in obviously high. This was well before it was legal but even now – bad idea for an interview.

      – The time the candidate was telling me about his hobbies (ice breaker type question) and went into a fairly long explanation of secret women’s yoga and something about special moves related to menstruation or pregnancy or… I have blocked most of it out. He might have been right. It might have been a fascinating topic. But not one to bring up in an interview! Particularly when the age and gender mix make you come across as creepy.

      – The time that the CEO mocked me (the interviewee in this case) in a phone screen. Really obviously and quite meanly. The job posting pointed candidates to his blog in addition to the company website. A prominent post on the blog was all about the importance of politeness in business, extolling thank you notes, being pleasant, etc. Even though I normally do, I did not send a thank you. If I had it would have been much too snarktastic.

      – This one is hearsay: The candidate who said “Were the directions on your web site written by a woman? They read like a woman wrote them,” to the the HR employee walking him in. Who was, indeed, the woman who had written them.

    22. Cedrus Libani*

      Worst interview, the “my fault” category:

      I took a cab to their office, which was in an unfamiliar part of town. The cabbie got badly lost. I should have been 20 minutes early; I was 15 minutes late. Worse, I’d forgotten to write down the phone number for my contact at the company, so I hadn’t been able to call and explain myself. I was mortified, but there was nothing I could do but apologize and hope for the best.

      When it was the hiring manager’s turn to interview me, he spent the whole time asking a series of pointed questions about time management, responsibility, and organizational skills. He then told the next person on my schedule that the interview was over, so please escort me out. Sigh. That was a long bus ride back home. But I’ve never made that mistake again, so I guess I learned something?

      Worst interview, the “swarm of evil bees” category:

      I was scheduled to interview with the hiring manager, and with several direct reports who would be peer-level. I got along with the manager well enough; a bit intense, but that’s not a bad thing, it’s their job to bring in quality people. Then I asked the first report about this person’s management style. “Next question.” I tried the same question on the other reports, and got deer-in-headlights looks followed by evasion. None of them would say a word about the boss, either positive or negative.

      I wasn’t offered the job. Thank goodness. (It was 2009, and I was unemployed; I’d have taken it.) I’ve still got no concrete idea what was going on there, but I’m pretty sure I dodged a bullet.

    23. Loopy*

      I once had an interview that was extremely bizarre in many respects, but the worst was that after waiting a long time in the “lobby” (more like a hallway), I was greeted by a woman who apologized and said she’d just had emergency dental surgery and was still on a lot of painkillers. She clearly wasn’t all there, but we started doing the interview. Halfway through, we were interrupted by a man asking to speak with the interviewer. She excused herself, and they stepped into the hallway and proceeded to have a very loud argument. They both spoke a language I didn’t speak so I have no idea what they were arguing about. After, the man came into the room without the woman and told me he would be doing the rest of the interview.

    24. Llama Face!*

      I got lost on my way to a government job interview and was half an hour late (before cellphones). When I got there, the big burly male interviewer sprung a roleplay scenario on me where he was an angry Walmart customer trying to return underwear against Walmart policy. Nothing in the interview invite said roleplay would be involved. Needless to say, I did not get the job. I am proud of myself that I didn’t laugh out loud in the interview. (Also in every job I’ve had since then I’ve been known as someone who is especially good at dealing with upset clients while remaining calm. I just don’t do well with interview surprises like that. Their loss!)

      1. Llama Face!*

        The being late was my fault; I had misread the address- think #200 instead of #2200- and went to the place I thought it was. It was a two-part street that ended in the middle (the north and south ends didn’t connect) so getting to the correct end of the street necessitated taking an awkward circuitous route.

    25. Elizabeth West*

      I have one from a long, long time ago, when I was in music school in Kansas. I was looking for part-time work, so I applied with an outfit that called itself an employment agency. Their newspaper ad pitch said they would help you find jobs and then place you. I thought it was a temp-like thing.

      I went to their office and filled out a long paper application. When I finished, I handed it to the woman, who then informed me that the service cost $1000! This was in no way mentioned in their ad or when I came in.

      I said, “What service?”

      She said, “The placement service offered by our office. You pay us to find you a job.”

      I told her no thank you (even if I’d had $1000, I wasn’t about to do this) and asked for my application back. She told me it belonged to them now. I said I was not going to leave until I had it back; they were not upfront with me, and I was not going to leave my personal information with them.

      She handed it back to me and I tore it up in front of her face, shoved the pieces in my pocket, and walked out.

    26. Robin Ellacott*

      This is a rich and fruitful topic! A few of mine (as an interviewer):
      -When asked how she handles negative feedback from a supervisor candidate said “I just try to, like, ignore it.”
      -Candidate spent most of the interview complaining about her evil ex husband, then harassed us for weeks about why we didn’t hire her .
      -Cocky young man repeatedly described himself as “an alpha dog” and told numerous boastful stories in which he told his boss they were wrong and/or ignored instructions because he knew better. Inevitably, he also was vocally appalled and stunned that he did not get the job.

      I haven’t been the interviewee as much because my jobs have been pretty serial long-term-monogamy-esque, but:
      -Small business wanted a combined graphic designer (they made me bring a portfolio) and business manager but looked shocked and offended at my salary requirements, which I’d based on my underpaid and much less demanding job in retail management, because I was young and stupid and didn’t understand market salary research. Then the owner spent the rest of the time talking about her second and third homes in the Mediterranean and Bahamas.
      -Hiring manager said “I’ve decided I’d rather ask you out than hire you and [resentful tone] I guess it can’t be both” at the end of what had felt, up to then, like a very professional, focused interview.
      -Interviewer told me about her PTSD at length and only asked me a few questions. As soon as I said I was empathetic and tried to see both sides in a conflict, off she went.

    27. Mellow*

      I had to walk a half mile to a train station to get to the airport, with my luggage, and no one on the search committee offered to accompany me or give me directions.

      I mistakenly took the southbound train instead of the northbound train, missed the flight, and spent the night in an airport hotel on my own $300 dime.

      And the interviewers were rotten hosts otherwise. I asked a question for which no one had a clear answer, but that answer was highly relevant to the role. Later, I asked my host the same question but in a different way, and, through clenched teeth, she replied, “You keep asking that same question.” I was embarrassed, but for her, not for me. What a miserable witch.

  44. aqua arrow*

    Any advice on professional attire in Japan? I’ve got a business trip coming up and want to make sure that my outfits are ok. I’m quite young for my position (23 y.o. woman when all of my coworkers are men in their late 30s/early 40s) and I don’t want to commit a faux pas with my attire.
    I have a white button down, a few silk blouses, a dark gray skirt suit, black dress pants, a black sheath dress, and black flats. Is there anything else attire-wise I should look into purchasing? I’ve heard that Japan is much more formal than the US. I’m going to be spending most of the time at a conference where I’ll be presenting at and don’t want to wear the same thing every day.

    1. Amber Rose*

      They are more formal, but that just means you can’t show as much skin casually. Any kind of business formal wear that you usually wear is fine. Panty hose is recommended.

      The biggest faux pas are probably not going to be attire but behavior. Has anyone gone through some of the most obvious ones with you, like how you shouldn’t write on business cards?

    2. DrTheLiz*

      I’ve a close friend who works in Japan now and was talking about this with her. There’s a lot more leeway with non-Japanese(-looking) people, and certainly a business suit or similar would be fine in general. Most of the pitfalls apply more to newer employees – some freedom of dress comes in around the two-to-five year mark – and they won’t know if that’s you. The things I’d recommend are to put more work than you usually would into looking “groomed” – hair all in place, not necessarily a lot of makeup but some, that sort of thing, and no collarbones – shirts done up right to the throat, which I find weird but there we are.

    3. LKW*

      Pantyhose still seem to be the norm in most offices. I’d also toss in a couple of suit jackets (separates are fine) or cardigans. The men will likely be in full suits.
      Everything you’ve noted sounds fine though.

    4. Coco*

      Def show less skin. I know you’re not a man but I remember my mom (we are Japanese) telling my brother after he turned 18 he couldn’t wear shorts in Japan anymore in public because it’s just not done.
      High neck blouses, sleeves (long or short), nothing too tight or short. Flat shoes are def a good idea because of the amount of walking. Hope you have a good time!

    5. cmcinnyc*

      Panty hose if you’re wearing a skirt (really). And don’t wear bare feet in shoes because you never know when you may take the shoes off, and you don’t want to be barefoot. If you have trouble finding truly no-show socks before you go, there are sock kiosks in Japan that have a great selection. The chain I like is call Kutsushitaya, which just means Sock Store. Ask at your hotel where the closest one is–they often are in the department stores and shopping halls in the bigger subway/train stations.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If you are going to be there over the winter, I am told that they don’t wear outside coats inside the building. This comes from someone I know who taught in Japan after college and she spent much of her winters very very cold.

    7. Tinuviel*

      Hello posting from an office in Tokyo! What you shared sounds good. Japan has very strict levels of “acceptable” business attire but you will be exempt from that if you are foreign (especially visibly foreign). Also there is a “best” option that women wear while job hunting or similar (white collared shirt, black suit, pantyhose, black matte pumps, low ponytail) and many “good” options that women wear every day in the office (skirts with hose, silky shirts in neutral colors, etc).

      So what you shared sounds good, but as others mentioned you will definitely need pantyhose. If any of your tops/dresses are sleeveless, you should be able to get away with it occasionally especially if you are visibly not-Japanese, but ideally you would have sleeves. Also neckline should not be more than a few inches below your collarbone. If you buy anything else, color-wise, you want to stay muted and neutral: white, black, gray, navy, brown, beige. Your hair should be neatly groomed, and your accessories should be minimal and delicate, this is a Japan style thing as much as anything else. Makeup should be simple and neutral, no colors (no red lipstick), nothing heavy or obvious. A big black shoulder bag is perfect, or another formal looking purse, but fancy backpacks are getting more and more common.

      Weather-wise, if your business trip is in fall, it will be about 15-25C depending where in Japan you are. Many women wear black tights in the fall. Also khaki “detective” looking jackets are really popular.

      Other business manner stuff:
      -as SSC mentioned, once you enter a building you should take off your outside coat and carry it in.
      -when someone gives you their business card, bow a little and take it with both hands like you’re receiving a delicate present. Put it in your business card holder after you leave them, not in your pocket.
      -bring your business cards!!
      -you can shake hands, people know this custom and will “play by foreign rules” with you. But if you do choose to bow, your neck stays in line with your back, hands one over the other in your lap, and look at their shoes (ie don’t try to maintain eye contact, you’re not supposed to)
      -if it’s a mostly-Japanese event, don’t be the first to ask any questions. Most Japanese people don’t ask many questions in front of a whole conference and as a young foreign woman you might seem brazen–save your questions for later, privately.
      -“yoroshiku onegaishimasu” You can say this phrase after you introduce yourself or at the end of your conversation with someone. It means basically “nice to meet you/looking forward to working with you” and will really impress people.

      Good luck and enjoy your trip!

  45. Daydreaming*

    Yay! Made it early!
    I have a couple of questions.
    1. How do you find positions for working remotely? I’m interested in being self-employed, and jobs in my line of work (PR/comms/fund development) are more centralized an hour from where I live (and the commute would leave me no life).
    2. Does anyone have any experience being a virtual assistant? What do you think of that?
    If it helps, I live on the east coast of Canada.
    Thank you! :)

    1. Introvert girl*

      Translators work remotely, most of them anyway. I’m not a freelancer but an employee of a company and work remotely a couple of days a week, sometimes a couple of weeks in a row when I leave the country. (3 weeks last month)

  46. Annie on a Mouse*

    I’m not sure if this is more suited to the weekend open thread, but I saw this article today and couldn’t help sharing (link in next post).

    Short version: woman applies for job, woman is rejected, woman rejects her rejection. Employer reconsiders and gives her an interview.

    The article says she was convinced she was qualified for the job, and that just made me think of all of Allison’s posts about how sometimes there are more qualified candidates out there. At the same time, she had been job searching for a year, and I really sympathize with her situation.

    2. Bilateralrope*

      No link at the time I’m writing this post.

      Was the employer seriously considering her for the job ?

      Or they did they just give in to shut her up and/or their own entertainment ?

    3. Mother of Cats*

      She was applying to be a grocery store check out person. It sounded to me like she got auto rejected for something she put on her online application. She emailed them back saying she was confident she could scan the groceries quickly and efficiently and she’d see them for her first day on Monday which was a bit cringy. But likely showing she was confident to ‘talk’ to people she didn’t know and happy to tackle hard convos (I mean have you seen how bent out of shape people can get about something silly like groceries?!) showed them she was worth a punt. They didn’t give her the job but they did give her an interview.

      I think that showing gumption is the kind of thing that only works for some jobs like this, like showing you have confidence even though you’re young and don’t have much experience and showing that you’re willing to just wade in and try to sort problems – in this case the rejection – shows that you might have soft skills that transfer over well to working with the public in ‘quick’ customer service (scanning the groceries or ringing in a fast food meal with an upbeat attitude) and is kind of showing some kind of qualifications for this sort of job.

      I really don’t think it would have gotten her far if she was applying for something that required actual experience and the employer wanted you already pretty up to speed to jump in.

  47. curious*

    How do I contact companies when there is more than one reason I want to contact them? For example:

    -my husband and I have a home based business and we would like to reach out to said company about working with them

    -I run an informal networking group that I would like to speak to said company about if I can interview them

    -We are involved in a non profit fundraiser and would like to see if they can help us out, even if means helping out is just hanging a flyer in their lobby or a donation

    All are for reasons I/ we are passionate about. All are for reasons some companies are known for in working with the local community . How do you choose which option to contact them about? I don’t want to be unprofessional and overload them with requests.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think you have to decide which is most important and/or time-sensitive and start there. If it opens the door to a working relationship with them, you’ll have more openings to inquire about your other ideas at a natural time.

    2. Mary*

      Make it general “you’re in x area, I’m in x area, I’d like to schedule a conversation to explore ways we could work together”? Going in with an open mind to explore the kinds of things they do and the kind of things you do can sometimes be a lot more productive than targeting them with a specific goal in mind.

  48. Fashion Newbie*

    Hey AAM frands!

    I have no background in fashion or retail, but next week I am interviewing in person for an executive assistant role supporting a c-level exec at fairly well known fashion brand. What is the etiquette when it comes to wearing said brand during an interview? I can easily wear something subtle (think stud earrings as they have an extensive jewelry collection), or nothing at all… I just don’t know what standard practice is. I don’t want to come across as a fan girl (I do have a couple of pieces, but nothing crazy) nor tone deaf. Any fashion industry professionals out there with some insight they’d be willing to share?

    2. wingmaster*

      Hi there Fashion Newbie! I work in the industry, and I would recommend wearing the brand. You said your pieces are nothing crazy, so I think it is fine. For many roles in the fashion industry, it’s good to have an understanding of the brand’s aesthetic with your skills/experience.

    3. theletter*

      From my brief experience in retail, I would say that wearing the brand would be a positive. You’re showing enthusiasm for the product.

    4. QueenoftheCats*

      If you have medium/long hair, make sure it isn’t covering the earrings, if you’re going with earrings. Unfortunately, that’s the closest to real advice I have. Good luck!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m dying inside because scrolling and my eyes are doing allergy things, I read your intro as “Hey AAM Frauds”

      Yes, being on brand is a plus from all my limited knowledge! Especially if it’s lowkey stuff, so you’re not rolling in fully decked out in just some obscure runway edition or something you tracked down.

  49. Worth Less*

    I’ve been unemployed for a very long time and worry that if I’m lucky enough to ever get offered a job again, I’ll only be offered the lowest end of the salary range regardless of my qualifications because they’ll know I desperately need a job and won’t turn it down. (The jobs I get responses from are mainly the ones I’m overqualified for. I would think being overqualified would warrant the higher end of the salary range. If I was a perfect fit I would expect the middle and if I was underqualified in any way I would expect the low end.)

    As an example, a company that I had applied to and that reached out to me yesterday had 1 year of office experience in their requirements, and their salary range was $X to $X + $3,000. I meet all the requirements listed and also have 6 years of office experience. So if they offered me the job, should I only expect to get offered $x and be grateful for it? Or would that be a situation where I should point out I have an extra 5 years of experience and should be worth more and hope they wouldn’t withdraw the offer?

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      If they come in at $X, start with “Due to my additional years of experience, I was hoping for a bit more – around $x + $2000”. Not the highest part of the range (which I would normally say go for) but an acknowledgement of your higher than hoped for experience while also taking into consideration that some skills might be a bit rusty due to the unemployment.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve done this – just mentioned that with my extra few years of relevant work experience likely compared to other new hires, that I was hoping for a bit more on salary. They upped the offer by $2k.

      If they don’t negotiate, you should decide ahead of time if $X is good enough for you for now – if it is, it’s not about being grateful but about renewing your work history until you can leverage it for something better. If they pull the offer over a totally common negotiation effort, they’re probably a terrible place to work.

      Good luck!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        it’s not about being grateful but about renewing your work

        This. X dollars is still more than the zero you’re currently getting. And if you do accept a lower paying job, keep job searching on your own time – as you’re probably well aware from this site, candidates are more attractive when they’re already working somewhere else.

  50. SleepySally*

    Need some advice on dealing with a perpetually late team. My work environment is one where being on time to work is important to upper management. Personally, as a lower manager, I see no problem with occasional lateness as long as all the work gets done and the right hours are being put in, but I don’t have a lot of standing here to change the culture on this. I’ve spoken with my team multiple times about the importance of being on time, but it doesn’t seem to be sticking. I have a couple of members who will be up to half an hour late multiple times a week (those guys I’ve unfortunately had to write up). Any advice on how to make it clearer that this is a requirement? Especially when I don’t think it should be?

    1. Kathenus*

      Well first, I think you either need to decide if you are going to try and enforce this or not. If management thinks punctuality is important and therefore you need your team to comply with this – make the expectations clear, and in writing and then enforce it as you would any performance issue. If you feel strongly that it is not a big concern, work with upper management on getting it changed or empowering you to deal with your team differently. But giving the team mixed signals won’t help.

      And for better or worse, as a manager, one of your roles is to either enforce (or appropriately try to change if possible) rules that you may not personally agree with as a representative of the management of the organization. With me, I’ve at times been honest with my team – along the lines of ‘I don’t see this as being a big issue in our department because of x, y, or z but I understand that it’s important to the organization because of a, b, and c reasons and that’s why we need to support this policy’.

    2. Spongebob Tardypants*

      Been there! In my case, there was a legitimate business need for everyone to be on time consistently.
      What was helpful for me really breaking down how oftenthe chronic late arrivers were getting in late and having a meeting with them: “Jane, you arrived half an hour late for 60% of your shifts this month. What’s going on?” It’s helpful if there’s something concrete you can point to that makes lateness a problem (ex: workload coverage, answering phones, clients arriving), but it sounds like there may not be in your case. If you haven’t been enforcing arrival times consistently before, you could say something like “I realize this hasn’t always been the expectation, but going forward I expect you to arrive by [x time] every day barring an emergency.” Be explicit that it is a performance issue, and that you need to see consistent improvement (not just short-term). Then, if people continue to arrive late, enforce that expectation just like you would any other performance issue, with progressively more serious conversations and possibly disciplinary action. It sounds like you’ve been doing some of this since you mention write-ups.
      Resist the urge to shift blame to upper management in talking to your staff. If that’s management’s expectation, that’s their expectation. If you’d like to see this changed and have the capital to do so, advocate to upper management. If you don’t follow through enforcing arrival times or are perceived as thinking it’s not very important, your staff won’t either.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Being on time is important to upper management.
      It’s not likely to change, and you’re not likely to be able to advocate for change.
      (I hate these policies myself but some places are just like that, no exceptions.)

      I think you’re going to have to put more emphasis on the “be on time” thing, including more write-ups and whatever other consequences are necessary to get people to comply. Because the alternative is that you start looking like the manager who doesn’t enforce the rules effectively and can’t keep their people in line, and that’s not good for your job security.

      I do think you can frame it as “It is important to Execs A and B that everyone be here and working by 8 am and have instructed the management to ensure this is adhered to” rather than as your personal rule. One of my favorite (and objectively best) managers was pretty clear when we were forced to do busywork because of processes beyond his control – it made him look human and we had some degree of sympathy for the guy enforcing the unpopular requirements. This is in contrast to a new manager who pushed some unpopular requirements on his team without context – we did not like that feeling of micromanagement and were not nearly as compliant.

  51. IEanon*

    I don’t necessarily need advice (though I guess some strategies might be helpful), but am mostly just looking to vent. I recently went from ~8 months of doing my supervisors job, primarily un-supervised, to working for a new boss who’s heavy on collaboration and meetings.

    Usually, I’m fine with these things, but I joked with other people that I’ve gone sort of semi-feral over the course of the year and I’m struggling with reporting to someone again and having my time/productivity tracked. It feels like micromanaging, but I suspect it’s just… managing? I really need to re-calibrate, but this has been a difficult week.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      I would suggest talking to new manager and just being clear that due to the events of the previous year you learned to work in X way and are working on adjusting to the new structure. The point of the chat is to alert your new boss that you recognize that change happened and you aren’t being difficult or not on board with the new way of things but that you are going to have to make some conscience effort to remember to loop other people in (or whatever they are looking for from you) as opposed to just handling it yourself.
      New Boss might back off a bit if you can make it clear to them you aren’t resentful or defying authority – just need a re-calibration as you said.

  52. Gwen*

    After a long time of being low-level frustrated with my job, I got pushed over the edge this week and officially decided to seriously start looking for someone new. I know it’ll probably be a long road ahead, but my confidence has definitely been bolstered by the fact that I sent in my first application at around 9PM and at 10:30 the next morning they emailed me asking for an in-person interview. It may or may not end up being the right position, but it feels like a good start!

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      Congrats and good luck! The last time that happened to me, I ended up getting the job :) I hope you have the same outcome.

  53. Miss May*

    Thank you notes question!

    I had an interview with a company and I had SIX interviewer over a three hour period. The lady who’d be my manager and a coworker (together), and four other individuals from the company (all individual interviews).

    I sent a thank you note to just the lady who’d be my manager, but should I have sent something to everyone else?

    1. Joielle*

      I think if you have everyone’s individual email address, you should email each of them (sending one email to all of them is probably ok). If not, I’d email the person you communicated with to set up the interview, thank them for their time, and ask them if they would pass a message of thanks to the people you interviewed with.

    2. Daydreaming*

      I would have said in the note “Please pass along my thanks to – I enjoyed meeting everyone!” but if you didn’t I think you should be ok just addressing it to your potential future manager.

    3. Goose Lavel*

      I always sent a thank you letter (snail mail) to everyone I spoke with. You never know what will make you tge stand out in a group full of equals.

    4. Mimblewimble*

      I had a similar interview once (met with 4-5 people), and since I didn’t have anyone’s email address I just sent one thank you to the recruiter and asked her to forward it to the team.

      I think as long as you sent a thank you to the HM you’re ok.

  54. Teapot Translator*

    I wanted to thank everyone who suggested soundtracks last week. I’m slowly going through the suggestions and noting the ones that work for me.
    In other work news, I’m bored at work and I hate feeling like this. I’ve slowly restarted the job search in case it doesn’t get better.

  55. Alice*

    I’ve been waiting all day for this thread to open, because I *finally* can share the good news: I’ve received an offer for a new position and I’m just waiting for their HR to formalize the paperwork. After that, I’m gonna blow this popsicle stand! (Or… you know… serve out my 3 weeks notice as required by my contract and professional courtesy. But still.)

    I’m still reeling, since the interview process took less than 2 weeks from initial contact to extending an offer. In my field it’s customary to have to wait 2 weeks before scheduling a first phone screening! From a few things they said, I think they received my resume when they were about to close interviews, and they like me enough that they rushed me through the process. The job is very similar to what I’m already doing, but with better pay, better career opportunities, and with an actual team instead of having to do the work of 3 people. I hesitate to call it a dream job, but it does sound pretty sweet, and I got a very positive impression from my future manager.

    I’m also extremely grateful to AAM, as this would have been my very first salary negotiation and I would have no idea what to say. I asked for X€/year thinking they’d offer a less and we’d negotiate something closer to what I wanted. They didn’t bat an eyelid and I got X€/year. Either they liked me *that* much or I’ve been selling myself very short those past few years. Either way I couldn’t be happier. The HR director (who is a bulldog and had been trying to put me on the spot previously) even admitted that she was impressed because the other candidates didn’t know how much they wanted or hemmed and hawed to no end and wouldn’t give her a number. I wanted to tell her it’s all thanks to AAM.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Congrats! I had a similar experience with my negotiation back in April – I’m glad you finally found an employer who recognized your worth!

  56. It's Time*

    I have begun the job search. How do I ask my mentor Max to be a reference for me? He and my manager are at the same level at our company (Asst. Director, but he’s on a different team) and he has truly seen and valued my wide-ranging skillset. He and I have talked about our career trajectories and goals and he has always given me sharp feedback and questions to ponder, things I lack with my disengaged assigned manager, Chloe. I know he would be supportive of me moving to the next stage of my career.

    Should I worry that Max would be obligated to report my search to Chloe? What if the new company calls Chloe while I’m searching? My other two references are outside of the company in order to speak to my partnership development and outside skills.

    I know others have asked questions like this before — if anyone could point me to the right threads, I would appreciate it.

    1. juliebulie*

      Ask Max, hypothetically, off the record, if he knew you were looking for a job, would he feel obligated to tell Chloe? (Add that you’re just asking for a friend.)

      Max will understand exactly what you are asking, and he will answer you. But even if the answer is yes, he’d need to tell Chloe, he probably won’t do so based on this conversation IF your description of Max is accurate.

      (To be clear, what you are really asking is, “I’m already looking for a job; should I leave you out of the loop?”)

  57. chipMunkey*

    I work in a very small, tight-knit community both in and out of the office. The business norms in the office were typically adversarial, with clear lines of separation between management and front-line staff (unionized). There is little receptivity to feedback, despite our work to change that. As someone who is very focused on learning opportunities and how we can improve, I find this very frustrating. When we run into an obstacle and the management team shares what happened and how we can better manage in future, the response from staff involved (as much as we try to anonymize things) is that it is a personal attack, or that we should be calling that one person out for ‘not doing their job’.

    Our management team is three people, two mid-level management positions that report to me. Because we rotate on-call duties, and it is a very small work group, employees are very comfortable and accustomed to responding directly back to the author of a particular email, memo, etc. without considering the reporting relationship and going to their direct manager. The other thing that happens is they will cc a number of other staff, and/or the union to rally others to the cause. The two other managers are quite risk averse, and that approach to feedback extends to their positions as well. Performance management of the managers would be very difficult if not impossible for a number of reasons (again that small community thing, difficulty in attracting qualified candidates, etc.). I’m more accustomed to more formal business norms, and a culture that is more open to change. I’m tired of everything here being a fight. Suggestions?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah, unless there’s something in their CBA that requires them to use the reporting structure you’ve set up, they’re going to continue to use this as a way to keep the power dynamics level. That’s the point of a union, they’re not afraid of you as managers because they have protections in place that mean that as long as they are abiding by their contract, they’re going to do what they want knowing they can’t be punished for standing their ground, not accepting feedback they don’t want to accept and so rallying everyone for their cause. That’s the beauty of unions for the members but the pain that it inflicts on management.

  58. Just Complaining*

    Open office and early pregnancy can just go ahead and die in a fire. I’m not even that sick but I want the OPTION to close my door throw up in a garbage can in peace. Also you all stink.

    That is all.

    1. Bee's Knees*

      Sorry you’re sick, but congratulations on the baby! My mother was sick when she was pregnant with me, and she still speaks with a weird fondness of the gas station she stopped to throw up at every morning on the way to work.

    3. rageismycaffeine*

      We have an admin who sits at our front desk in a similar situation. The poor thing has to rush away to go to the bathroom at least twice an hour. You have my sympathies!

    4. Arielle*

      Ugh, hang in there! When I was early in my pregnancy I could smell every person’s individual shampoo as we rode up in the elevator. Now at 35 weeks I just wish I had a door I could close and take a nap.

    5. cmcinnyc*

      Been there, done that! It was my professional goal not to throw up at my desk, and I just made it. Which is amazing considering I sat about a city block from the bathroom at the time.

    6. A Non E. Mouse*

      Congrats on the baby, and I’m very sorry for the sickness (and the super sonic smelling).

      Do you have anything that you can sniff at when other smells are bothering you?

      Or pop an altoid in your mouth, since that’s an overpowering-enough flavor to maybe block your other senses?

      Hang in there!

      1. RagingADHD*

        Whole coffee beans are great for clearing your smell “palate.” As long as they are not also a pregnancy aversion for you!

  59. Master Bean Counter*

    Goals for financial people?
    I’ve been asked to think of goals for financial people. I’m not finding much that is with-in the control of the clerks. It’s not like the AP clerk has control over when we pay people. People above them make that call. Maybe something about moving vendors over to electronic payments?
    For AR all I can think of is billing accuracy.
    Cost control lies with the managers, not finance.
    Anybody have ideas they can share?

    1. Combinatorialist*

      I know nothing about financial jobs, but Alison has recommended before that you think about what distinguishes someone good at their job and someone really great at their job and to set goals around that. Are their superstar clerks? What does/would being a superstar clerk look like?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Consider asking the departments they support. For me, I truly miss one retired purchasing guy because he clearly explained procedures to newcomers without talking down to them. And because he always responded to emails, even if it was just to say he was too swamped to look at my question until next Thursday. As opposed to his outsourced replacement who often doesn’t reply for 2 weeks, 3 emails reminding him of an approaching deadline, and a 4th one cc:in his boss.

    2. Dancing Otter*

      Accounts Payable: do you track the steps in the procure-to-pay process? As you say, the clerks may have no control over the time from invoice input/approval to remittance, but what about the time from receipt of invoice to processing? What about the size of the backlog (there always is one)? Accuracy of entry and coding (expense account for direct pay) or PO matching? Not putting invoices through as direct expense when there’s actually a purchase order: this can cause material errors in accruals and expense recording.

      Vendor setup is a common area for inefficiencies, whether it’s done in A/P or Purchasing. How about goals related to accurate setup, especially of terms? How about NOT creating duplicate vendor records?

      Accounts Receivable includes not only accuracy of quantity times price, but terms (net 30, early payment discounts, etc.) and timeliness of invoicing. Timeliness of follow-up, too, at least the first couple of reminders before accounts are referred to Collections. Are they referred when they should be? If Collections is within your purview, are they following the rules for due diligence (notices on day X per procedure, attempts to contact by phone or email, etc.)?

      For both payable and receivable clerks, do you have established cut-offs for period-end? Track how much doesn’t get recorded in the appropriate period, even though the invoice was received or the sale consummated. Or if period close ever has to be delayed because of something material not being recorded on time.

      Anyone in Accounting can have goals around closing activities getting done on time and correctly. No internal control violations (SOX exam) and no audit exceptions. Fewer correcting entries, unless caused by misinformation from outside the department. Financial reports (internal and external) issued on time, without material errors (or having to reissue after release, G_d forbid). Regulatory filings submitted on time (or at least submitted for review by officers in plenty of time).

      And circling back to procure-to-pay, there can totally be goals around the A/P aging analysis. If delinquencies or lost discounts/late fees are rising, why? Unless the company simply can’t afford to pay its bills, where is the bottleneck, and what steps are being taken to improve it? Are “check” runs being missed or delayed? Are invoices not being forwarded from departments (or Receiving, if enclosed with the goods purchased)? Is the Receiving department slow to record receipts, so the invoices cannot be matched (PO to receipt to invoice)? Is the electronic invoicing system not functioning properly?
      Some of this is within the Finance department’s control, and some is not, but it’s Finance that looks bad when the company gets behind on paying the bills. So figure out ways to incorporate these concerns into goals.

      Another goal for anyone in Finance could be updating desk-top procedures. Cross-training is both a goal in itself and an excellent way to confirm whether the documentation is complete and accurate.

  60. HalloweenCat*

    I have been waiting for this thread all week. I need a reality check — Is it time to move on from my job or am I just BEC frustrated with my manager and need to take a few days off?
    The long version: I have worked as one of a four-person marketing department for a moderately sized company for a little over 2 years. My position was originally very writing oriented, which I loved. But over time, especially in the last 6 months, I have gotten to do very little writing and instead spend a lot of time working on budgeting, logistics, online customer support, web development or generally finding busy work to keep myself occupied. Most of my writing is press releases. Due to the tariffs, we are being more conservative with product development so there are fewer new products to write about. Most of my daily job now are tasks that I have no training in (web development) or interest in (budgets).
    I basically can’t write anything unless I’m asked to do so and when I am, it is impossible to get answers from certain people. My manager routinely makes excuses for the people who don’t respond and refuses to escalate my concerns up a level. I don’t feel comfortable going around my manager because of the tight-knit relationships they have with all the other higher-ups. People work at this company for life, it seems. I think this is why she’s so quick to make excuses for them.
    My manager is also retiring at the end of next year. They have floated the idea of me taking over the position, and I have said I don’t want it. They don’t seem to have a plan or strategy for finding and training a replacement for a position that has never been vacant. (My manager is the only person to ever hold the position.)
    I’m also being tasked with traveling to events and creating social media content. This position was supposed to have no-to minimal travel. I hate flying and traveling in general always seems to make me sick.
    And to top it all off, we were supposed to be hiring an additional person to help with digital marketing because I don’t have a degree in that field and we all agree it needs more attention. We were just told that won’t happen because of the tariffs. It will stay my responsibility on top of everything else I’m expected to do.
    All of this is having a noticeable effect on my work performance, my mood, and my feelings toward my boss. We’ve always gotten along but I’m starting to genuinely dislike her and every little mistake feels like a personal slight.

    1. CatCat*

      It sounds like your BEC with this job. The job has morphed into something you don’t enjoy doing things you don’t want to do and your boss is an obstacle on the few occasions you actually get an assignment doing the work you like. There doesn’t appear to be a clear path to change that. Maybe it’s time to move on. You’ve got nothing to lose by looking for opportunities that are better aligned with your interests and working conditions that you want.

      1. HalloweenCat*

        I think you’re probably right. There is a job I’m interested in applying for and I’m doing some research on AAM to figure out how to best start applying without telling my current workplace I’m looking.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          It sounds like you need a straight communications job since you enjoy the writing piece of your current job the most. I’d start applying for those (filtering out the ones that also want digital media management as well since that’s not your thing) if I were you.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      These are the perils of small marketing teams! Unfortunately or Fortunately depending on whether or not you like being a generalist.
      But I don’t understand why you’re reluctant to take on social media when it involves a lot of research and writing? For me, it’s one of my creative outlets.

      But you know, sometimes jobs just change over time and the needs they hired you for may not exist any more and you’ll feel stuck. If you really enjoy doing only one aspect of marking (like content) you can find that at larger companies where marketing departments are more siloed. That is, if they haven’t outsourced everything to an agency, which makes you basically a pencil pusher/project manager.

  61. Boba Feta*

    I’d be interested in hearing from other academics about how you structure or manage your productivity across a work week. I’ve been slowly reading through “The 12-Week Year” and trying to figure out how to incorporate the time blocking method into a work week where major blocks of time are already pre-populated with classes that might overlap with what my naturally productive time periods are.

    For example, I find that I am naturally more productive from about late morning across lunch into early afternoon, but once I have my (usually late lunch) my brain sort of shuts off so it’s best that I leave administrative or other low-intensity tasks for later in the day. However, my teaching blocks tend to occupy that peak brain-productivity time for me at least two days a week (for legitimate factors I am loathe to change), and so I’m trying to work out a framework for fitting course prep (develop new material), course management (grading, emails), service (meetings, mentoring, etc.), and scholarship (ACK!) in between my teaching blocks to minimize the time I sit trying to force myself to do X when really I’d be better trying to focus on Y.

    With the acknowledge that the details will be entirely dependent on my personal circumstances, any academic out there willing to share how you structure your week around your class schedule to get All. The. Things. done, and hopefully provide some inspiration?

    1. Reba*

      Note: not a practicing academic but in an ac-adjacent position.

      For me having small and broken-up deadlines helps me to make the most of work time, whatever the schedule is. Making project timelines and getting an accountability group together can be helpful for this. This could be on campus or remote, checking in by email.

      I still get emails from the National Center for Faculty Development and Diversity. I recommend checking it out! Some of the content is subscriber-only, so see if your institution has access. To distill a lot of their advice:

      Rank you writing higher in your priority list. You put it last! It’s not last! You have to protect this time because no one else will do it for you. And you have to say no to things to protect yourself from burnout.

      Write every day — don’t wait until you have good writing time or good brain time. Put half an hour on the calendar, that’s something! It sounds like you want to find large blocks of good time. But maybe you just won’t have those this semester. How can you chunk up your work so progress is still getting made, even without the ideal time blocks?

      Find out where your points of what they call “resistance” are, and figure them out. (For example, based on what you’ve written here, you want to find big blocks of your best brain time, and you have some worries or difficulty thinking about whether you’re using time in the best way or with what you feel like doing.) This doesn’t necessarily mean solving the problems but more an attitude shift. Maybe you can find a way to use the emails and and such as part of a productive procrastination strategy.

      Please report back and tell us what you are trying!

      1. Boba Feta*

        So much of what you wrote resonates! Yes, I have always struggled with time “blips”, feeling like I could never get good traction into a project or deep-thinking task unless I had “lead time” to get my head in it. With short bursts, by the time I orient my mind into the project, the blip is over and I feel frustrated at not having made much progress. This is absolutely something I need to switch my mindset about and figure out how to make “blips” work to my advantage.

        Regarding reprioritizing: you’re spot on about flipping the research and class prep positions on my list, but this is extremely difficult this term with 3 new preps wherein I’m barely one class session ahead of my students. I’ve been using my “best brain time” to knock out a week’s worth of course materials just to stay ahead, but then am left with the “brain slump” periods to work on whatever else.

        I think the best route may be to more fully incorporate actions pertaining to my ambition projects on the task lists that have so far focused mostly on course maintenance, and be more ruthless about tackling those on my open days.

        Thank you!

    2. Hi there*

      I agree with Reba above about putting the most important things first, which is definitely not grading and emails. I am an academic administrator and I’ve had a sideline view of the hubs’ faculty career these past 25+ years. The way you describe it you have three to four (counting Saturdays most of the time if you are on the tenure track) days where you can do what you wish with your most productive time. The bulk of those should be research and writing, maybe 1 day week is course prep with some other bits of prep squeezed into the teaching days. I wonder if you can put a cap on the administrative stuff, grading, emails, committee meetings of no more than 2 hours a day = 10 hours a week. The meetings are probably late afternoon and don’t cut into your best time. I’d also schedule in exercise most days and some fun time doing a hobby or light reading. Hope this helps!

      1. Boba Feta*

        You know, I didn’t fully realize until you mention meeting time that I’ve been relatively passive rather than active about when I schedule meetings, allowing them to encroach on my “best brain time” rather than at the margins when brain can’t focus on the ambitious projects anyway. This was a wake up call! Ok, new strategy will be to look at my week and determine times in which meetings shouldn’t happen because I’ll be better off working intensely alone, and try to put meetings as caps on the ends of those blocks. Thank you!

  63. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    It was 2 weeks and 2 days between fedjob closing and interview. It’s now been 2 weeks and a couple days since the interview. And I really, really wanted that job too :(((( Perfect topic area, something I was truly passionate about for over a decade, a springboard into a career field, and 25 min closer to home than current commute (plus factoring in new house/closing in 2.5 weeks).

    Anybody have near-perfect interviews with positive feedback and crickets later, that turned out to be a blessing in disguise? This job was so highly tailored and would’ve been perfect….

    Back to the drawing board :(((

    1. Kathenus*

      It sounds like you haven’t been notified of not getting the position – is that right? I used to work for the federal government and it was months between the interview and decision, so if you haven’t been notified otherwise I wouldn’t give up hope. It’s probably healthy to move on mentally and not put all your hopes on that one job, but a couple weeks is nothing in the federal (or private, for many organizations) hiring system. Good luck.

    2. government worker*

      It’s government and it takes F O R E V E R! In my experience (not fed, but municipal) they are good at closing the loop, so no news is good news. Be patient, and good luck!

    3. NeonDreams*

      My therapist said her former secretary took 3 months after her interview to get hired on with the federal government. I just interviewed with them last week. Hopefully it won’t take that long. But you’re still within the hiring parameters. Take heart; all hope is not lost.

    4. Bureaucratic Hospice*

      Fed supervisor currently doing tons of hiring here – less than three weeks post interview is barely any time at all fed-wise. Even if the panel/hiring manager indicated they were hoping to have a quick turn around, it still can easily get stuck in HR limbo for only-a-magic-8-ball-knows how long.

      Until you hear that a) you haven’t been selected from USA jobs or the hiring manager directly or b) you reliably know who they chose/that person has accepted for how ever many positions they were hiring for, I wouldn’t give up hope. (Also, we have to designate alternates for a reason, first choices can and do fall through, so even then…)

      Fingers crossed!

    5. Cog in the Machine*

      Is it for sure filled? Our office has a fedjob that closed six weeks ago, and has no sign of hiring happening soon.

    6. Quiznakit*

      Definitely don’t give up yet. Getting an interview a mere two weeks after the posting being closed is so fast my head is spinning at the idea. I didn’t know federal HR could work that fast!

      (For my current posting, they contacted us for interviews about six weeks after the posting closed, and it was about three or four weeks after the interviews that the offer was extended, and another four weeks after that before I moved to my new posting.)

    7. chipMunkey*

      Oh yes, been there too. I was desperate to get out of current job – things were escalating with difficult employees, no support from higher up, and I was just done. Applied to a job in March, and didn’t hear anything back until mid-summer for interview. It would have been perfect too – in the city and closer to services and programs, better for my family life in terms of opportunities for me and the kids, and closer to extended family, more pay, shorter commute, less responsibility, etc. etc. I totally bombed the interview, but even on the trip home I knew I wasn’t at my finest because I’ve been so stressed and desperate for something to come up. The more I thought about it, I think I dodged a bullet – the manager was much more rigid than I would have liked, and the only reason this position was going to be part of the ‘leadership team’ was because it was a non-union position. I wouldn’t have been happy there.

    8. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      No outright rejection on USAjobs or phone or email yet.

      …in contrast to a different fedjob I auditioned for five years ago where the lady called, left me a message to call her back, then spent 10 minutes on the phone apologizing and kvetching and saying I was an amazingly strong candidate but they had to go with someone else. And that she had zero feedback and wished she could’ve hired me. Worst waste of a phone call ever…X//

    9. LLG612*

      If you haven’t received a rejection outright, you’re not out of it. Mine wasn’t fedjob but statejob and it took me 4 months after “closing” to get an interview and another 6 weeks to get an offer. Partner is in fedjob and recently waited 9 weeks after interview for offer.

    10. Yep...*

      Happened here. Interviewed for 2 jobs. Job A…I was told I was exactly what they were looking for and would be back in touch the next week to set up the interviews with the higher ups. Had great rapport with the person who would have been my supervisor. Totally ghosted….never heard a thing. Job B…would have been a a great fit…heard nothing. In both instances, the person who would have been my supervisor left the organization within a couple of months. So yes…blessing in disguise…though I didn’t know it until several months later.

  64. Bee's Knees*

    Our shady circus continues to be hellmouthian. Our corporate overlords are sending another stooge to take the place of someone the employees respect and like, and that is going to go over like wearing concrete shoes and jumping off a pier.

    Honestly, I’m expecting to hear ominous thunder and evil laughter any time now.

    Also, I’ve been cut off financially. I spent four thousand dollars last month on food for one department. My (corporate) credit card is maxed out. If you looked at the statement, I’ve had a time of it. Clothes, shoes, amusement park tickets, over a thousand dollars in chicken wings. I also have nothing to show for it because it was all for employees. Our accountant knew all these expenses were coming, and I’m not in trouble, but it’s irritating because the needs don’t stop just because the credit cards do.

    I keep getting excited because at least it’s Friday, but I have to work tomorrow, so it doesn’t have the same impact. I also have my first ever performance evaluation today. (The paper wasn’t big on feedback) So there’s that to look forward to. And my boss is in a mood. Yay.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        It’s about 250 a time, and we feed three crews any time we feed. So one weekend where we feed three crews chicken wings (from a not cheap national chain) is about $750. I spent over $4000 on food for them last month.

    3. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      Oh man, yikes! All of the good vibes for your review today! I also feel you on having to work tomorrow…I’m in the same boat. It really does keep the Friday happiness muted.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Wait, I just realized–they did your performance review on the Friday before you had to work on Saturday? I can’t explain why, but that just seems uncool.

  65. beepboopin*

    Ok. So what do you think are the ethical limits of “insider information” for a job application. I am applying for a new position internally. It would be with my same boss but since its a brand new project, I have to go through the application process like everyone else (fair). I have seen the proposal for this project long ago in a draft form, but I definitely have access to the final version of it through our network folders (of which I have perfectly legitimate access to). So my question is: Is it fair for me to read through this final proposal, that external candidates would not have access to, in preparation for interviews? Or do I resist the temptation to prepare more in depth. I feel like I already have a leg up in the process and really it would come down to someone having longer experience than me (I have been at my company for 8+ years).

    1. INeedANap*

      I don’t see any ethical limits here assuming your access to the proposal is legitimate. Hiring is about finding the best person for the job, and there’s nothing unethical about that potentially being an internal hire with in-depth knowledge of the proposal.

    2. NotMyRealName*

      Of course you use all the information at your disposal. That’s your whole selling point, “I’m already up to speed on this and ready to go.”

    3. Kathenus*

      I think you can use the proposal, but in my personal opinion think you need to disclose that you did so versus possibly unintentionally inferring that you came up with ideas/conclusions on your own that just happen to align with the direction the organization wants to go in. Turning it into a positive as NotMyRealName says, using the fact that you have access to and have read the proposal as a plus to your candidacy.

    4. EnfysNest*

      Just ask your boss! “Hey, would it be okay for me to take a look at the project final proposal, or should I wait until after the interviews?” Sounds like it should be fine and they’ll give you the go-ahead, but it could look weird if you don’t check, even if the answer would have been yes anyway, and it’ll definitely not be good if you look first and find out later that they wouldn’t have wanted you to.

  66. Liz*

    I started a new job 8 days ago. It’s a government job in a field I’m familiar with. It is a contract-to-hire position. Last Friday, my third day in the office, one of my new colleagues invited me to after-work drinks. Also present was someone who used to work in the office–both also contract-to-hire–who was fired some months back. Needless to say I heard a lot of sour grapes. I’ve tried to not let what I heard affect my point of view about this position. However, I can’t help but notice what feel like red flags. It is a very small office, with two people who are in charge (one director, one manager). I’ve not had any meetings outside the office with anyone in the agency, nor any meetings with these managers. There have been no typical one-on-ones where goals are outlined or expectations laid out. I’ve received two assignments, via email and with no deadlines. I’m in my own office, and my manager has stopped in twice, and called me a few times to check on my progress while apologizing for not spending any time with me or really speaking to me. I don’t really understand the lack of communication, and definitely don’t feel anyone is interested in whether I succeed in this role. When I was having drinks with the coworker and former employee, the one who was fired told me, “You’ll never get hired on full time. Do the job but keep looking for what you really want.” I wish I had not gone out with them, since I can’t un-hear what they told me. But I fear a lot of what they said may be true. How do I effectively communicate with people who don’t seem interested in my success at this point, recognizing it has only been 8 days?

    1. Kathenus*

      If it was me I’d focus more on the recognizing it’s only been eight days and less on the other aspects. And reframe your thinking from them being interested in your success to them being interested in how your role can help with the success of the organization. Nothing you described above, to me, sounds that out of line for many companies. Could communication and one on ones be better – absolutely. Is getting project assignments by email and two stop ins and phone calls from my manager a sign of poor communication – I don’t think it is, just maybe a bit more hands-off than you might be used to or might have hoped for.

      Now that you know that new colleague is friends with fired coworker, you might want to be cautious about spending time outside of work in that group so that you don’t 1) continue to be in a position to hear negative things about your employer that may affect your views on working there (especially if you didn’t have these concerns before hearing them by this former employee) and 2) potentially get linked to this former employee by your manager or others in the organization which may not be helpful for their perception of you as you integrate with this new team.

      I know you said you can’t un-hear it, but you can (kind of) ‘un-listen’ to it and not give it weight until/unless you have these concerns based solely upon your experience versus through the lens of theirs. Think about a former coworker or manager that you may not have gotten along well with. If they were to tell your current employer/coworker things about you, you wouldn’t want them to be taken as true without being evaluated on your own merits and performance. Take this same perspective in how you evaluate your new job and employer.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, all of what was posted above is the truth – form your own opinions of the place. Someone who was fired would be the last person I’d listen to unless I had already seen signs myself that what he said was true.

  67. Scrimpie*

    I posted a few weeks ago about my bafflement over being written up for “sexualized” behavior in the workplace due to vague anonymous (to me) complaints that I was “prancing” and “flaunting” myself and generally “waltzing around shamelessly,” even though I am a middle-aged chubby frumpy lady who is an extremely modest dresser. (And, also asexual, although not out at work about that – but certainly not discussing sex or dating and the like at work.) Well, I found out what the deal was after I was dragged into another meeting…it turns out a colleague (not in my department, but on a team that my team collaborates with regularly) had/has a crush on me. Colleague, whom I’ll call Fergus, is a married man around my age; apparently he has been somewhat distracted lately resulting in some performance issues, and confessed to his boss about the crush. (I interact with Fergus, in a group, maybe a couple times a week; I don’t recall ever even having a private conversation with Fergus.)

    So…basically the deal is that I’m being blamed for Fergus’s thoughts and feelings. In the follow-up meeting I was accused of “making eyes” at Fergus, leading him on, and generally disrupting his work and marriage on purpose. When I protested that I had minimal direct interactions with Fergus, and never any private or non-work discussions, I was told that I must have done something to spark Fergus’s feelings and that I’d “been warned” about how I presented and conducted myself.

    Then I was fired for “sexual misconduct,” with no severance because the company policy is that generally people let go for performance issues receive a good severance package but people fired for sexual misdeeds receive nothing. Yes, I was literally fired because someone I barely interact with developed inappropriate feelings for me. Thankfully I have plenty of savings, but not enough to retire on, and now apparently need to work on clearing my name and restoring my professional reputation. Right now I am alternating between devastated and furious…

    Yes, I’m getting a lawyer, and will keep everyone updated.

      2. Lilith*

        Oh I’ve been wondering about you. This is ridiculous and awful. I hope your attorney kicks ass & takes names along with lots of $$$ for you.

    3. Quill*

      Jeeez…. lawyer time!

      This seems 100% sexism – obviously blame the target of someone’s affections for the fact that they can’t be an adult about their feelings!

    5. miss_chevious*

      Wow … just … wow. There is so much misogyny at play in those events that it’s hard to unpack. I’m so sorry this happened to you; it must be maddening to be blamed for a co-worker’s thoughts and feelings and then to be fired on top of it? YIKES. How terrible.

    6. Amber Rose*

      Get the meanest lawyer you can find and run them through the wringer. I’m experiencing the most blistering wave of second hand fury on your behalf right now. RAIN FIRE UPON THEM. Those SCUM.

      2. Shirley Keeldar*

        Doubled and tripled! This is infuriating, and Fergus and all his enablers deserve to suffer mightily. Imagine me making gasps and horrified gulping noises on your behalf.

        2. Kat in VA*

          I am so angry. Fergus develops a crush on you – of which you are unknowing, even! – and since he can’t control his feefees or his daydreams or his fantasies, rather than dealing with them like an adult (i.e., he has a crush, realize it’s a crush, realize it will flame out and life will go on)…he gets you fired instead.

          I just can’t with this. It’s 2019 and women are STILL DEALING WITH THIS $HIT IN THE WORKPLACE. EVEN NOW.

    7. DC*

      Holy. Hell.

      I’m furious for you. This is so beyond the realm of okay that I can’t believe an HR professional didn’t see how this would be a problem for them.

      Please keep us posted, so we can support you!

    10. Kathenus*

      I truly hope you have some of this in writing, and if you don’t write it up and send it to HR letting them know that this is a summary of your conversation of xx date and that if they had any additions or corrections to your summary to let you know by yy date and then save a copy of this for your lawyer. I look forward to hearing about your generous settlement package in the news. Good luck.

    12. LKW*

      OH HELL NO. Lawyer immediately. This is so egregious I can’t even believe it. You “made eyes” at him. That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard this week (and I read news papers folks – there’s a lot of crazy out there).

      1. zora*

        Re: “Made eyes”
        … is it possible you fell through a wormhole into 1957?? Because “made eyes” is also such a weirdly archaic phrase, it seems weird that someone woudl actually be using it sincerely in 2019!! These people are awful.

    13. Sarah*

      My mouth literally fell open. WTF!

      The silver lining is that I hope this gets you a nice fat settlement cheque.

      1. Lilith*

        This reminds me of high school girls getting in trouble for their clothing because the boys get distracted. Jeebus–let’s not teach our sons how to act/behave! Grrr. I’m so angry for you.

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      “You must have done something to spark his feelings?”
      The UK word “GOBSMACKED” is the only one for the way I’m feeling now.
      Good for you for getting a lawyer.

    16. ThursdaysGeek*

      Yikes! Lawyers are an expensive route, and I hope you prevail. I hope you end up with enough to retire on after all! Enough for a really nice retirement!

      I got in trouble with HR once for smiling at a co-worker. I smile at everyone but it was causing problems for him.

    17. MechanicalPencil*

      My jaw was dropping more and more the farther I read. I am literally speechless. You are absolutely not responsible for how you make someone feel by merely existing.

    20. Lady Alys*

      Good Lord. I hope your lawyer brings down a rain of fire and desolation on them. What an infuriating ridiculous situation!

    21. juliebulie*

      This is bs and I am so angry!!
      Why are they believing Fergus over you?
      What evidence has he offered?
      What kind of witchcraft do they think you’re capable of to enrapture him so??

      I am sorry and angry that this is happening you, and glad you’re getting a lawyer.

      I imagine that your absence won’t improve Fergus’s performance at all. He will fixate on someone else and then HR will have to figure out how many people they will have to fire in order to justify keeping Fergus around.

    22. zora*

      Ho.
      Ly.
      What.

      I just read your post 4 times with my jaw on my desk until I could even think straight.

      This is absolutely insane, and I just want to validate that you DO NOT DESERVE this, you did nothing wrong and these people are so far over the line the line is a dot.

      I am so so sorry you have to deal with this, but best of luck, and keep us updated!!

    23. MMB*

      Unleash the dogs of war!

      This is such BULLSHIT. I hope you’re able to retire to your own private, fully paid for desert island when the lawyers are through with that place.

    24. Tea and Sympathy*

      Wow. It’s so maddening and unbelievably sad that this sort of thing still goes on. I’m glad that you’re getting a lawyer, and I hope the shock of losing the lawsuit will bring them into this century. Good luck with everything and please do update us!

    25. Reliquary*

      You might consider screenshotting and/or printing out your posts here and sharing them with your lawyer. They document your shock and confusion during this entire horrific process.

      I am so sorry you have been so victimized, and I hope you receive a just recompense.

      1. anon for this*

        No, don’t do that. Then they can look up everything you’ve ever written, even if it’s unrelated, and your lawyer may legally need to turn over any evidence to the opposing side.

    26. Jemima Bond*

      Are they for real????
      I look forward to your future account of how you RAINED DOWN VENGEANCE UPON THEM.

    27. CheeseToastie*

      I am SO angry on your behalf. I hope you’re able to wring them dry.

      And please take care of yourself; I can’t begin to imagine how stressful this must be.

    28. Anonymous for this one*

      What the what…..this is the absolute worst thing I have ever read about on this site. And that is saying something.

    29. Princess Cimorene*

      I know this shouldn’t matter, but was this in the US (if so, you should have a slam dunk case imo – I HOPE. Then again with the way things are crazy bananaland right now who even knows) What kind of language? What kind of accusations? What year is this? What dimension? What the hell?! What? Just what? What?

      What?

      What?????????
      What?

  68. ThatGirl*

    I work in a 4 story building and we’ve recently had multiple fire drills (3 in about 5 weeks). We have two team members who have mobility issues and are very slow on the stairs. I made a comment about “what if we had someone in a wheelchair? what’s their plan?”
    My one co-worker said “well they would just have to stay home until they could walk again” and I said no, I mean someone who is a wheelchair user, full-time. “Well, we just wouldn’t be able to hire them”

    Uhhh that seems… wrong? The building is otherwise pretty accessible as far as I can tell?

    1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      That is wrong. In all high-rise buildings, the fire evacuation policy is that no one may use the elevators, so persons with mobility impairment would be impacted no matter how accessible the office is.

      In a skyscraper, etc., each floor has a designated spot for persons who cannot use the stairs to sit and wait for the fire department to rescue them. So while everyone else is evacuating, they will remain in the building until the fire department reaches their floor to carry them out.

      1. Mimblewimble*

        +1

        Talk to your building security and find out where the emergency plan is kept, and then familiarize yourself with it. It will have your company’s specific emergency procedures listed.

    2. fposte*

      Well, unless your co-worker is doing the hiring, I’d assume she’s just wrong. That’s not how the ADA works.

      However, it seems generally like evacuation plans have lagged behind hiring generally, presumably because the logistics can be complicated. It looks like there’s been some court action on this but I’m not quickly finding information about impact. I’ll post an AskJAN link about evacuation in followup, but as somebody in tornado country I’m familiar with the shelter-in-stairwell option and I was interested to see that smokeproof stairwell areas are a possible solution.

      2. ThatGirl*

        I mean, I’m pretty sure she’s wrong (definitely not how the ADA works) but I worry a little that that sort of attitude pervades the company. And to Spcepickle’s point, we don’t have rescue chairs in our stairwells, though we probably should.

    3. Spcepickle*

      My building has a very similar issue. We have a rescue chair at the top or the stairs, it is a wheel chair that can go downstairs. They are pretty standard safety equipment.

    4. Teapot Translator*

      Where I’ve worked (multi-story buildings), the plan always was a) the person with a disability (either permanent or temporary) must stay near the evacuation exit (stairs) and if they have to be evacuated, the firefighters will do it, or b) if the person wants to evacuate, they have to take the stairs after everyone else.

    5. Beancounter Eric*

      Your company/building doesn’t have procedures in place re. mobility-compromised individuals?

      In past workplaces in multi-story buildings, the plan was to shelter at the floor landing in the fire staircase until assistance arrived – floor fire warden was tasked with notifying building & fire service of people holding for assistance.

      I’ll refrain from commenting on your coworker.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I honestly have no idea – the two people I mentioned can walk, they are just slow and always the last ones out. I’m sure someone in HR has some plan, or at least I would hope so. And I’m guessing the *actual* plan is firefighter assistance. But I was really taken aback by my coworker’s comment.

    7. Interviewer*

      Yeah, taking your coworker’s approach is a great way to get sued.

      It’s not just people in wheelchairs – people with bad backs or bum knees or even temporary conditions like recovering from an injury or surgery – everyone at some point can have issues going down a flight of stairs. The people in charge of evacuation procedures should clearly communicate instructions to everyone.

    8. WellRed*

      Geeze, I’d wonder how someone could be so obtuse, but then, Scrimpie just got fired because her coworker has a crush on her so yeah, there are still plenty of people living and working under rocks.

    9. Llellayena*

      Assuming the building is under relatively recent fire/building codes: A safe location, usually in a stairwell or protected elevator lobby with two-way communication should be available for disabled people who are unable to navigate stairs (not just wheelchairs). The comm system lets them tell the fire department where they are so they can be quickly rescued. At my dad’s former workplace, there was a designated rescue area and one able-bodied person was designated to stay with the disabled person until rescue arrived – during one drill, that was my dad.

    10. AngelicGamer, the visually impaired peep*

      As a legally blind person who was not permitted to go down stairs during a fire drill* (you go down on your butt in case of a real fire, FYI, which I said “oh fuck you” and went down normally)… what the hell is your coworker on? You have the rescue chairs or the buddy system of a non-wheelchair person to help put that person back in the wheelchair at the bottom of the stairs. Also, your fire plan with emergency services includes where those places are so they can go there to help get people out. Your co-worker is weird and I’d go to HR to see what their plan is.

      *This was a three story high school. We only had two rescue chairs for three people in wheelchairs. This was a real problem when we thought we had a real fire (turned out to be stink bombs that either had noise makers attached or those were thrown after the stink bombs) in June of 1996. To say that the school administration were PISSED is an understatement… those seniors who were trying to get out of a test were suspended and not allowed to walk at graduation. I think they also had to pay for the cleanup.

  69. PantaloonsOnFire*

    Had an interview yesterday about a position that initially seemed promising and very much in line with my career goals. Came to find out that they are essentially hiring for a director-level position (and the person being replaced literally had a “Director” title!) but with no plan to give the new hire either the title or the salary commensurate with such a position. So this person will have director-level responsibilities and report directly to the CEO but will have the title “Manager of X and Y”, while their peers have titles like “Director of Z.” Not to mention a salary that’s a good $30-50,000 below average for that particular sector. The work is legitimately interesting work, but definitely not worth the insult of the diminished title and inadequate pay. Yikes!

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I know someone who just walked away from a position where she was promoted to run a department — but not given the same title as the 4 people who had preceded her in that role. The work was not simplified or restructured. She had trouble getting other departments taking her seriously. She found a new job.
      It has been suggested to TPTB that the title be restored to reflect reality.

  70. C in the Hood*

    Calling all admins/receptionists: Have you noticed an uptick of fake business calls? I’ve been picking up a lot of calls on my manager’s line, asking for people who (a) are obviously not him, and (b) not even in our company. I know I’ll get an occasional wrong number, but the volume lately is ridiculous. (Even my manager commented on it.)

    1. Morning Glory*

      At our org, our phone numbers got spoofed so we have been receiving a HUGE amount of people who thought they were returning calls we never made. Not quite the same maybe, but similar.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m not an admin/receptionist but I get a LOT of this. They ask for people who work for my employer, or used to.

    3. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Definitely yes, and a major uptick in robocalls too. I can always tell when it’s one of those fake business calls, they start off with “How are you today?” Yeah, dead giveaway, our regular client callers could care less. :-)

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Spammers are getting insane at home, on my cell, and yes I’m getting them directly to my corporate number.

    6. Zephy*

      I normally don’t get a lot of spam calls, but yesterday I got three – I’d have to look to see if it was the same number every time, but they all started with the same robot lady’s voice saying “Hello. Please don’t hang up,” and then I don’t know what the rest of her spiel is, because I hung up.

    7. Happy Lurker*

      It’s almost constant, work, cell and home. Definitely picked up in the last few months maybe even year – time goes so fast!

    8. KR*

      So many calls. I ignore or hang up on them. Told one guy from “Microsoft support” that he’s running a scam and not authorized to work on our PCs and he got really angry before I hung up on him too. Love the scam calls for rooftop solar when I work for a large utility in renewables. Also the ones for mortgages crack me up sitting in a leased office and having never owned a home.

      1. Zephy*

        I’ve gotten a couple of fun straight-to-voicemail slydials about a warrant out for my arrest in such-and-such county that I’ve never been to, and I had better call this number (a different number than the one that supposedly called me) ASAP or they’ll have to turn me over to the authorities. The closest I’ve ever come to running afoul of Johnny Law was letting my indoor cat’s rabies vaccine license lapse. I might have been late returning a library book once, in middle school.

  71. Jessen*

    So as someone who’s looking to go more towards IT training and work (I’m intro level helpdesk right now):

    I actually really, really enjoyed my time as a call center worker. I absolutely thrive in an environment where I’m hands-on dealing with something RIGHT NOW and I’m very good at finding solutions for people who are upset or frustrated because what they want isn’t doable. I’m also pretty good at shrugging off people getting mad at me and at diplomatically handling situations. And I don’t tend to get super stressed when dealing with crisis situations – my brain tends to figure “if no one’s about to lost a limb or something it’s not that bad of a crisis.” I’d have stayed, except, well, customer service isn’t valued enough to offer the kind of working environment where that’s really viable as a long-term plan.

    So I’d like to look for something that has that same sort of energy, but is actually acceptably compensated and mostly reliably treated like a competent adult. And I’m not really sure what that would look like. I know I don’t want to do anything freelance or primarily commission-based though – pay stability is too important to me.

    AAM career people, any suggestions?

    1. Jamie*

      Your strengths would serve you very well in IT end user support roles. Lots of smallish and midsized companies outsource IT either wholly, or to supplement in house, with IT support at all levels. Many of these solutions firms aren’t using contractors, but have a team of employees who handle needs for various clients.

      You sound like you’d be great at that.

    2. IT end user support*

      Can I hire you?

      I work in IT end user support in Higher Ed. We (like many other higher ed IT shops) do a combination of phone, walk-in, and go-to-the-user’s-desk support, plus project work. Your skill set is what’s needed, since no day is ever the same. In general pay might be less than in a for-profit environment, but vacation benefits are pretty good. In higher ed, particularly smaller institutions, you’re also pretty likely to find a role that lets you get experience in a broad range of things as well as a vertical “slice” from first-level support up through speccing out software needs/projecty stuff.

      1. Jessen*

        That might actually be interesting. Especially higher ed – I’m one of the very many who started on an academic track and didn’t end up there. I’m not necessarily looking for high pay, just not the 10-12 bucks an hour and minimally legal benefits that customer service workers are apparently worth.

        What sort of IT skills do you think you’d be looking for if you were making a new hire?

      1. Jessen*

        Ok I do have to say that my crisis immunity is mostly reliant on the fact that I generally don’t regard business problems as an actual crisis. I don’t think it would extend very well to actual crisis situations.

      1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        If you’re going for A+, might as well go for Network+ at the same time. (It’s what I did when I got mine lo these many years ago.)

      2. Jessen*

        I’ve been working on the security+ right now (security never hurts), but I’ve been looking at going for the full trio.

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      If you want a slight pivot from direct support, you might look into systems administration, network operations, or information security. The first two are things that look like they ought to be simple and straightforward, but never are. Your job becomes to get things set up and keep things set up no matter what the current crisis is. Information security (infosec) can be either implementing best practices for security, or auditing other people’s security to find weak points.

      If you’re good at identifying where something should be working but isn’t, qa/testing could be another path. This one isn’t so much as fixing what’s gone wrong as it is identifying what could go wrong, then seeing if it has or not. (And if it has, submitting the proper bug reports and re-testing after the fix.) May involve developers getting mad at you because you told them they did something wrong. (Those developers are short-sighted – good QA makes developers look good.)

      (These are all high level summaries, since I’m in software development.)

    6. periwinkle*

      I did my time on the help desk, as did my husband and several close friends. In fact, we all met while working together at a corporate help desk! (3 marriages came out of that department, IIRC, and some of us are still good friends after nearly 20 years) Most of us made the next step into desktop IT support, which makes great use of your knowledge and troubleshooting skills while adding a broader knowledge of business operations and different functional areas. Several went into higher-level IT roles (lots of sysadmins). One got hooked on the business side and earned an MBA. I got interested in the training side, found that my troubleshooting skills fit ideally with performance improvement, and am now in a corporate learning role where I’m still solving problems both sustained and immediate.

      So I’d advise looking for an IT desktop support role where you’re not glued to a phone, and then making use of that exposure to see what other functions are appealing. Problem solving while remaining calm is a valuable skill!

    7. Gatomon*

      Oh I know that thrill of the unknown/time pressure/being the hero who fixes it mix is addicting! How do you feel about networking, specifically service provider? I work for a smaller, customer-focused ISP and I don’t think it gets any better. ISP jobs aren’t super common, but it’s hard to find someone with that experience so it could be a stable career path if you go down it. If you can learn the basics (OSI model, basic networking protocols), you can be successful on just about any gear, though CCNA is the industry standard to start with.

      My job now is super varied – sometimes I’m troubleshooting with a customer, or troubleshooting our gear, or designing/configuring the service for a customer/consulting with them to determine what problem they’re trying to solve, or doing maintenance activities late night. You will need nerves of steel though when your BNG router that serves 10,000+ customers goes belly up, or when a major distribution site goes dark for no apparent reason and you get the call!

  72. Lovecraft Beauty*

    Apropos of the recent ask-the-readers question about changing jobs, has anyone had the experience of changing jobs, having a rough transition (like, not “the first week of onboarding is always a mess” but literal weeks or months of struggling), and ending up feeling good about the change?

    (I’m still pretty determined to give my new job/team a full three months to win me over, but I’m two-thirds of the way there, and not seeing a lot of light at the end of the tunnel.)

    1. Sneep Snoop*

      Well, that did happen to me, but that’s because I started a public-facing role in the off-season. For several months I was confined to doing clerical work until we opened to the public again. I hated those months, but once I finally got to do what I was hired for, I’ve starting loving that job.

      I however assume that if you’re writing this, it’s because your job doesn’t really have a cyclical nature and you can reasonably expect things to stay the same. Are you the type of person who typically struggles with change? I know it takes me a while to stop hating literally *any* new situation, just because it’s unfamiliar and unfamiliar things stress the heck out of me at first. If you’re normally quick to adapt, I’d say it says something if at this point you’re still having a rough time.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Oh no – I’m sorry you don’t like your new job as much as you thought you would. Have you had this problem when switching jobs before, or is this new? Are you actually doing what you thought you were hired for, or do they have you doing something completely different?

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      My first library job was rough for the first year. The other staff was walking on eggs around me and the processes didn’t make sense and it was all weird. Finally I went to a conference with the night librarian and it turned out my predecessor had been very paranoid. Every time I went into my office the staff was mentally or actually gathered outside of my office to see if an angry and “crazy” person was going to come out. And the tech services processes WERE in disarray; it wasn’t that I didn’t understand. It got much better after that though I had to figure out processes from scratch. Over the next couple of years I met three people who had had my job AT THAT LIBRARY and said it was a “great first job.” And I did learn a lot and the people I worked with were lovely once they knew I wasn’t going to bring my cat to work and yell at them and wear my clothes backwards.

  73. Quill*

    So I’m trying to polish my resume, as it’s 4 months in current job, and I don’t know what… any of my job duties are called. (I switched to a more regulatory role after 4 years as a lab tech.)

    Here’s what I have so far:
    Coordinated international legal documents; analyzed departmental success metrics including voice of customer surveys; Assisted Associate director in organizing and facilitating workflow; developed new templates and procedures to increase productivity; advised working group on adoption of new workflow software;

    Does anyone have advice on presenting/rewording these and is it (relatively) clear what my duties are? I’m a regulatory associate but in practice I’m three people’s assistant & resident excel wrangler.

      1. Quill*

        Not… precisely?

        I request legal documents from manufacturing plants / the states they’re located in and send them for legal processing, then send them overseas to export destinations. I do odd jobs (data analysis & composing documents, mostly,) while also working with the Latin America division to assemble internal documents for submitting to the proper authorities.

        1. Mockingjay*

          I do many similar things and that’s the title they gave me. I have two hats; when I’m not coordinating the paper, I am a tech writer developing the paper. I ensure the teams adhere to the processes and schedule, provide templates for consistency, report status (morning noon and night, it seems), develop metrics (how many ways can I tell you that we are x% behind schedule), liaise with various customers and ensure their deliverables are provided on time (oops, see metrics), ensure compliance with contract and federal regulations…

          Ya know what? Listing all the things I do, I probably deserve a raise.

  74. Synonymous*

    For women in male dominated fields, do you ever reach BEC level frustration just being surrounded by men? How do you deal? One of my co-workers was droning on and on yesterday to anyone within hearing range, and my headphones weren’t blocking him out! The only thing that made me feel a little better was blasting women empowerment songs for the rest of the day.

    1. Sharkie*

      Sometimes. It just depends on the type annoyance. Like if it is sexist BS I don’t deal- I shut that down ASAP. If it is typical guy stuff/humor I tell them to please try to keep that away from me. It is a hard balance because I am in the bullpen with them, and I don’t want them to feel like they are constantly on guard and can’t be goofy (within reason of course) around me. That sounds bad but I don’t want any person to feel on guard around me because they are afraid.
      I like to talk long lunch walks alone to clear my head :)

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      Honestly, I got interrupted multiple times yesterday and flat told I was wrong about the thing I reported was a problem, even though I had more experience in the issue, and more recent experience at that. It’s happened so often with this person that I’m considering going to the department manager, but I know it’s not going to do anything. I do have a bit of solace in that I’m not the only one experiencing problems with him though.

    4. Spcepickle*

      I am a female civil engineer, I have a very loud, will talk about anything in painful detail, not great at his job dude I work closely with. I have started making eye contact while putting on my headphone. It helps him know that he is disturbing others.
      Also if at all practical can you work somewhere else. When it am report writing I take my tablet to a secret cube.

    5. AM*

      I am a female engineer and work with men. They talk about football a lot and I definitely get to BEC levels with having to hear those incredibly boring conversations. They also leave work early a lot to go play golf which also gets me to BEC levels.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is such a strange thread because no, I have never ever just been aggravated due to the fact I’m swimming in testosterone.

      It’s never been a “me verses the men” setup though, if they were dismissive of me or sexist, then I’d be angry over those things but I wouldn’t be upset because they are just over there, being dudes, chatting about fantasy football.

      I don’t find it healthy to hyper focus on gender like that. I focus on the people themselves and how they act as people.

      I don’t want to hear anyone drone on. I don’t know why it would matter if they were a woman or man.

      1. CheeryO*

        Maybe you work with more woke guys, then. My department is almost all men, and most of them are fine, but we have a few older guys who are just awful – vaguely condescending, always interrupting, always droning on in that particular way that makes you painfully aware that you might as well be a painted wall, for all they care. It does get tiring, and it does make you roll their eyes even when they’re just chatting amongst themselves about lawn mowers or football or whatever. BEC is a perfect way to describe it, since obviously it’s not reasonable to be mad at someone for eating crackers, either, but that doesn’t make the feelings less real.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It could be a regional thing as well or the fact that I land in places owned by liberal minded men more often than not.

          I’ve worked in numerous places at this point, always predominately males and it’s never been a thing. They also know I’ll wipe the floor with them if they step out of line and I’m higher in rank than everyone but the person who signs my paychecks though…so that could also be a thing of course. But even when I was just an EA while recouping from too-much-responsibility burnout, I would just drop a “Dude. I’m trying to work over here.” and they’d go “Oh oops, sorry about that.” and shut their mouths. Or “I don’t know why you have that tone with me, I’m not stupid and that voice makes it sound like you think I am.”

          I also like football and hockey, so that kind of thing doesn’t ping on my radar as an annoying thing. It’s no more annoying than a shop full of women talking about their kids or gardening or whatever is stereotypical feminine.

          I also grew up surrounded by rowdy nonsensical butthead uncles, so I know all their tricks and how to make them roll over and show me that fleshy soft belly of theirs.

          Part of me EA job was literally screaming at bullheaded truck drivers though, I fear nothing.

        2. Windchime*

          We have a couple of old guys at work like that. They aren’t on my team but we all sit in the same area. One of them wanders in between 9 and 10 in the morning and just travels from cube to cube, blathering on in his loud, boring voice about anything non-work-related that he can think of. Retirement plans, bitcoin, cars, you name it and he is the expert on it. His teammates sit, slack-jawed, and listen as he drones on for hours. I just put on my noise-cancelling headphones with a white noise app and peace on outta there (in my mind). It’s like they literally have no work to do.

      2. Tau*

        TBH, this is roughly where I fall as well. I’ve been lucky enough not to have been faced with overt sexism at any point during my career and uni (maths, was also fairly male-dominated especially at the PhD level), and I sort of intentionally avoid looking for the more subtle stuff. Because I know that there’s nothing I’ll be able to do about anyone’s unconscious biases anyway, and I know that wondering whether I’d still have been left off that e-mail if I’d been a mad will drive me mad. So I try to avoid thinking about it, even if it’s hard to shake the occasional “wow, am I seriously the only woman in this room?” moment.

        This attitude is also helpful because I’m a minority in a few other ways and I don’t think I have the energy to worry about them all and still get my work done. :(

      3. The New Wanderer*

        I think it’s very dependent on the environment and specific situations. I myself haven’t noticed much of an issue and I am frequently one of few or the sole female in a room. (It’s getting better here, but I visited my previous group yesterday and counted 5 females in a room of 40, not including myself or the speaker since we’re visitors. That ratio has held steady for at least 8 years in that group.) But I haven’t been the subject of interruptions, men taking credit for my contributions, or being left out of opportunities. So it hasn’t gotten to BEC for me and I’m glad for that.

        On the flip side, one of my former (female) colleagues was always keen to point out the old boys’ club issues, to a degree that I don’t think was helpful. It was definitely a BEC thing for her with certain individuals. However I’m not saying her experience wasn’t valid (one guy in particular was/is known to be toxic and sexist), but it got to a point with her where she felt like there was nothing she could do about it and eventually left the company.

    7. Lonely Aussie*

      Honestly, my job has basically ruined any chance of having any form of meaningful romantic relationship with a guy.
      I work in Ag, in heavily male dominated field which is hard to staff. It’s super difficult to be fired too. I’ve reached “one of the boys” status and I’m so done. I like a bit of dirty banter but not the sexism that seems impossible for the guys to separate from it.
      I’m sick of hearing my gender used as a slur, sick of having new guys constantly ignore/undermine my experience, I’m sick of having to be twice as good as them. I’m so bleeping tired of having the new blokes trying to stare down my top or get up in my bubble, I have no problem with telling them to f off but it’s exhausting to be doing it with every new f wit who walks through the door.
      Between the constant moaning about their wives/girlfriends, the sharing of naked/naughty pictures of them (and in one case pictures of a PTs clients fitness progress) and mentions of what they consider sex but are rape/sexual assault. I know a lot of of these women and it’s heartbreaking to hear some of things said about them or hear about their assaults at the hands of people who are supposed to be their lovers. There was a conversation the other day about how best to remove a condom without her knowing. Like wtf!?! Apparently calling the guy who was talking about it a rapist was out of line.

    8. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      Most of my male coworkers are nice, down-to-earth people. The managers, on the other hand… A lot of them were hired on by fellow bros when the company was still a start up, and they are your stereotypical condescending white men who think they are So Smart, despite taking a very myopic approach to the project work we do.

  75. Robin Simons*

    I’d like to know how people are handling the current state of politics in the USA in the office. Beyond ignoring it, that is. How to get employers to do things from a “good corporate citizen” point of view. Wayfair’s boycott of ICE related facilities, some of the banks pulling loans for private prisons, Penzeys putting their money where their mouth is and donating profits places etc. Yes not everyone agrees with this, but I think its so important.

    1. Quill*

      My job requires me to liase with our Latin America team. We’ve adopted a bit of a system of semi-acknowledging things, re “wow you have crazy news/ weather up there” “Yeah, it’s not getting better lately,” because tbh even though everything in america is on fire we still have deadlines. :/

    2. Spargle*

      Most people don’t have the pull to make the kinds of changes you listed as examples. Plus, things like existing contracts with vendors etc. can make it very difficult to make immediate changes that aren’t punitive. From my observation among friends, colleagues, and the like, people do what they feel moved to do on an individual level, but it’s up to the people who have actual decision-making powers to determine what is the appropriate move for their company. Sometimes that’s boycotting, sometimes that’s donations, sometimes it’s nothing because it’s not appropriate for that particular business.

  76. I am living in a managerial world, and I am a managerial girl*

    New manager here. I’m temporarily managing a small staff until my supervisor returns from leave at the end of October. I really need advice on how to handle a situation with a coworker who is really negative, constantly complains about other employees behind their backs (to me). I’m new to this job and am learning that there’s a history of bullying and animosity in this office (mostly directed at this employee). How do I discourage the toxic talking behind others’ backs while leaving the door open for this employee to talk to me when she really needs to? Thank you in advance!

    1. Jamie*

      Don’t participate and show total lack of interest by asking her why she’s telling you those things, then pleasantly change the subject to something work related.

      And checking in with her on work related stuff will show you’re always open to those kinds of conversations.

    2. Beatrice*

      A script I recently got for this conversation went like this: “I’m hearing a lot of negativity from you, and I need you to rein it in. This is a workplace, and while you’re here, I need the focus to stay on work. If there are problems that are keeping you from getting your work done, or constructive suggestions you have about how we can do better as a team or how I can do better as a manager, please bring those to me. But I need you to save the venting and the social conversations about work things and people you don’t like for your time outside of work, and not bring them into the office with you.” (I haven’t used it yet – I’m saving it for the next incident. :)

  77. Bad mood*

    Just a vent…
    Our town had three tornados hit Tuesday night; (thankfully no deaths). We were hosting clients off site and we, as the clients were understandably a bit rattled and running on little to no sleep. But it was addressed, we all took a breath, and down to business, right?

    I wouldn’t be here if THAT were the case- Star Of The Show Sansa whipped out her phone and was walking around showing photos to anyone she could corral, redirecting all conversations to how it impacted HER (she lives ~10-15 miles from town, drawing maps for how to get around, there was one stretch of a busy street that was closed- not even an imposition as we were on the other end of town, and generally pulling focus away from the event, the clients, and onto her.

    So tied up in being the Show Star, that she did not help with directing clients, setting up or providing demos, or tearing down which was her only reason for being onsite. Then she left early to check in her cats…because??? But manager is so snowed by her commitment to coming in, she publicly thanked Sansa for pushing through. Not me or another coworker who has damage to trees, fences, broken windows….just to the one who is the loudest..
    Grrrrr

  78. TheCrunt*

    At new job, I was kind of low balled salary wise ($17/hr, college grad coming into a new field but I have 2 years of admin experience) HR said “this is what everyone starts off with”. I’ve been consistently told that I’m overqualified for the job and that I’m doing well at this entry position.

    But am I doomed to this low pay for the next few years? Can I expect a decent pay bump each year or so? At my old job, I quickly got raises ($14 to $17/hr within the span of a year and a half) so I’m not sure what to be realistic about.

    1. Peaches*

      I can’t tell for sure, but it sounds like you already accepted the offer. In the future, I would try saying “given my experience, would you consider a starting salary of $x?” If you’re being told you’re overqualified, you shouldn’t be starting off with the same salary that “everyone starts off with.”

      Ideally, you would ask your boss what your expectations should be as far as salary increases (are they given annually? For good performance?, etc.) It could totally depend on the company.

      1. MoopySwarpet*

        To add to this, we have accepted negotiations above the stated range with a set period of time when the higher wage kicks in. For example, if we advertised at $15-$17 DOE, and you asked for $20 based on your experience, we would (possibly) start you at $17 and move you up to $20 (or somewhere in between the 2) at 90 days.

        If you do have a probationary/evaluation period with a review at/near the end of it, you could probably ask for more then. You would have to have solid reasons that make sense for the market/duties, though.

        1. TheCrunt*

          Thanks I’ll try to bring it up during the review at end of the probation period. The hiring manager was firm about no wiggle room for negotiating and I was desperate so it’s a bit of a bummer to hear that I’m stuck :( But better than being unemployed.

          1. tamarack and fireweed*

            Yes, ask. “When I started, we / myself and [X] had a conversation about salary, and that given [Y and Z] the starting salary was one the low end of the scale. So I’d be interested in getting some clarity about how you see my compensation evolve, potentially.” If you get slightly nonplussed, embarrassed or otherwise “better shut that topic down” vibes you know that you need to move on sooner rather than later if you want to earn in line with your expectations.

      2. Artemesia*

        This. Having accepting a low salary you are in fact doomed at this workplace to always being behind where you ought to be. Your only serious chance for a better salary is to move to another company and even then this salary is damaging which is why preparing to negotiate and keeping current salary quiet if you can is helpful.

  79. Pork cutlet bowl*

    I like sitting in a cube farm with low walls. The background chatter helps me focus and I feel reassured being able to see my coworkers and being able to initiate and participate in discussions when necessary.
    Silence is horribly distracting to me because of the way it rings and echoes in my ears. I would also die of loneliness if I were to be assigned a private office, and would absolutely refuse if offered one.
    I’ve noticed that AAM readers generally skew in the other direction in terms of preferences – most of you love your space and quiet. Is there anyone else on here who is like me in this regard?

    1. Quill*

      Honestly I can take or leave the presence of other people at work overall, but the appeal of an office for me at the only previous job where I had one was that I didn’t like the people around me & no one could stand behind me.

      Currently I’m just hoping for access to daylight to continue in my current cube, because like a plant, I wilt without it.

    2. anna green*

      Me! I also get horribly lonely if I am working alone. I actually used to work from home and hated it so much I got another job where I share an office in a busy area with another person and I am so much happier. We don’t have cubes, but if we did, I’d be totally fine with it. I am also much more productive when its bustling with lots of people here.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’m a mix. I looooove my private office and hate the feeling that anyone walking by can see me/my screen/my wide variety of snacks, but I need some activity around or else I just can’t get going on work.

    4. Sneep Snoop*

      Yeah I’m like you on this. My job has an off-season where the public we serve isn’t there and during that time, most of my coworkers go on vacation (except me I guess – I don’t really enjoy the heat, can’t afford to travel and don’t have a lot of vacation time anyway). When I’m alone in our shared office, I get really lonely and the silence even creeps me out to the point where the ventilation turning off and on startles me. I listen to music but it’s still unnerving.

      I need social stimulation in my day to stay motivated, basically, but I suspect I would feel differently if my coworkers were mean or annoying. Everyone I work with is great – no one blasts their music or wears strong perfume or microwaves fish.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Honestly I work well in both extremes. Many people in a coffee shop become a drone of noises. Three voices having an animated discussion in my earshot when the other noises are muted? Terribly distracting!

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I like background noise. I work from home full-time now and I generally keep the TV or a podcast on. Music doesn’t always work for me. Usually I just put some series on that I’ve seen a million times (today it’s Downton Abbey). If it’s completely silent, I get kind of anxious.

      However, I don’t always do well if I can’t control the noise. A regular hum of talking, fine, that works. But anything startlingly loud or unusual distracts me super easily. So working from home is great for me in that respect.

      I identify a little bit with the loneliness part, but in my case, I need a lot of recharging time, so my preference is to have an office and leave it when I need closer interaction. Some days I will work entirely from my home office, other days I will take the dog and work in a public space just to be able to say hi to people.

    7. The New Wanderer*

      I like background noise due to tinnitus, so I don’t mind cube farms because they dull the noise and mask most of the visual distractions of people moving around. But I hate when people near me are having a conversation with each other, as happens often in an open office like I’m at now, because I have a hard time tuning them out. Plus, they move around as people do and that’s distracting. Noise cancelling headphones with streaming music is a sanity-saver. I’m still holding out for partial walls though…

      1. Windchime*

        Same here. I don’t mind the low background noise of people quietly going about their business. Soft conversations, typing, things like that. It’s the woman with the high-pitched, screaming voice who shouts across the room and the old guy who blathers on for hours on end about NOTHING that annoy me. I would never want (or expect) a dead silent office. I just wish the people who must be the center of attention would STFU.

    8. periwinkle*

      For some reason I can focus better when actively ignoring noise. If it’s too quiet in the office, it’s hard to focus! However, the background chatter has to be somewhat indistinct, like a murmur as opposed to actual discernible conversation. I use Noisli and Coffitivity to get that coffee shop “murmur” in my headphones. (both are available on the web and as phone apps)

    9. juliebulie*

      I prefer quiet. But! I have a possible solution for you to deal when it’s quiet in the office. Oddly enough, it helps me when it’s really chatty in the office as well:

      https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/babbleNoiseGenerator.php

      It produces a sound that sounds like chatter (to make people like Pork Cutlet Bowl feel as though people are around), but contains no actual speech to distract people like me. So it’s also good for masking real speech!

  80. Anita Brayke*

    What to do? I work in a small office with 5 full time employees, all women. Two of the women are mother and daughter, which brings a whole set of problems of its own, but…they love to hide under desks, in large boxes, in the bathroom, etc., then jump out and scream loudly. Although I wasn’t in the military, I have actually-diagnosed PTSD and have mentioned this to them. If anything, they do it more. For instance, this morning I came in to a dark office with an unlocked door, and someone jumped out of the supply closet at me “because my birthday is tomorrow.” I’m looking diligently for a new job, but wonder…am I being too sensitive? I’m concerned that one of these days, a blue streak of inappropriate language will come roaring out of my mouth, and it won’t be complimentary to the person who jumps out. I don’t have control over what I say when I can’t stuff in my reaction any more.

    1. Quill*

      Holy crumbs their behavior is bannanas.

      (I also have PTSD and being in an office of shouters was bad enough, I would probably try to shank anyone who jumped me in-office with a pen.)

    2. Jamie*

      The language I’d use if that happened to me would take the paint off the walls, and I’d give zero f’s about it.

      How is that kind of thing entertaining to anyone, especially after the first time. Is management aware of this?

      1. Reba*

        Actually, letting loose on them one of these times might scare them out of it.

        Obviously they are not taking calmly-stated concerns seriously, what if they actually got a little scared and were unable to laugh it off.

        Finally, What the Actual Fuck.

    4. anna green*

      This is completely awful! You are not too sensitive. Is there anyone you can talk to to get them to cut it out? If not, then yeah best of luck finding something new! Also, I wouldn’t even try to contain my language. You jump out at me, there will be lots of cursing.

    5. Jaid*

      You’re not too sensitive, these women are idiots of the first class. I’d let your boss know, though, and give those two fair warning that PTSD is not a game.

    6. fposte*

      Oh, FFS. I am immune to much work weirdness and noise, and to, you are not “too sensitive”–this is outrageous.

      So what have you said to them about this? Have you mentioned anything to your manager (or is one of them a manager)? Even though you’re too small to be covered by ADA federally (though you might be under the state), that doesn’t mean you can’t ask for people to stop being jackasses because they’re being jackasses. Also, can you tell what response they’re looking for? Do they want you to be really upset or do they just think you’ll enjoy the mild scare or move on?

      1. Anita Brayke*

        They think they’re hilarious. I think they probably want me to enjoy a mild scare, but unfortunately, that isn’t how it works.

        1. Quill*

          I’m so tempted to tell you to stop holding back and maybe *they* will get scared of your reaction but alas, that would probably make things far worse.

          1. valentine*

            that would probably make things far worse.
            Yes. I wouldn’t be surprised if you got in trouble for scaring <i<them.

            Purposefully triggering you is assault. How awful. Ask your manager how they want you to respond. Is there any way to quarantine them? (Seal that box!)

    7. Colette*

      I think it’s OK if you react the way you react.

      But I would suggest that you sit down with them one on one and have a serious conversation. “You jumped out on me yesterday. That is not OK. Do not do it again.” No laughter, no minimizing language, just “Stop”.

      1. fposte*

        Totally agree. Not just after they’ve done it, either; make it a time when you can be in full command of yourself and are driving the conversation.

      2. Dr. Anonymous*

        I would also put them through an inquisition: “Why do you keep doing this when I’ve told you I don’t like it? What’s funny about this? It upsets me for hours (or whatever). How is that funny? This is a workplace, and I have to be here, but I don’t have to play games with you. Please find some other way to have fun that doesn’t involve bothering me. I have work to do, and I’m sure you do, too.”

        1. Colette*

          I disagree – asking questions makes it seem like they have the option to continue if they find it funny/rewarding.

    8. Sneep Snoop*

      Lord of Mercy in hot pants, you should not have to jobsearch over this! Management needs to shut this nonsense down, ASAP. The fact that their behavior is inappropriate for a workplace could be forgiven if all parties involved enjoyed it, but the fact that you have made it clear that you don’t like it and yet they still keep going is just… just egregious. The should have stopped the second you told them to – or even better, the second they realized that you weren’t laughing along with them after one of their hilarious pranks.

      If you’re reluctant to go to HR or management I second the idea of having a serious sit-down conversation with them. You don’t even have to mention PTSD – just say that you really don’t like it, be as stone-faced as possible when you do, and tell them that you don’t want to snap at them, but that it might happen if they keep it up.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Tell them they need to stop.
      Tell the site manager or business owner that they need to stop because it’s re-sensitizing you and you’re likely to let loose a blue streak or flail at the fear trigger.
      And the next time they do it, break into a full-on 100% SCREAM. Not a loud yell, a full primal scream of terror.
      It stopped my then 10yo when she went through a phase of thinking jumping out was funny…and did it to me when I was coming home late into a dark house. I hurt myself screaming and then burst into tears and…well, she doesn’t jump out at me anymore.

      1. Dusty Bunny*

        Yeah, see, a 10 year old thinks it is funny. But grown ups? At work? Not so much. I think the only appropriate response, along with that scream, is a full on body slam. “My fight or flight response was triggered.”

    10. Koala dreams*

      Bullies at work target you because of your disability. That’s awful! You are not too sensitive. I’m sorry I don’t have any solution, I wish I knew how to get bullies to stop bullying. (It would be such a useful skill.)

    11. Gumby*

      Dude, no. Halfway through I thought you were talking about *cats* that is how out of line this was. In a cute “my co-worker won’t stop sitting on my laptop” way – just that you had slightly nutty cats. These are human co-workers? No.

      You are not being sensitive. This is *not* normal human adult behavior. Maybe, maybe it could be considered normal for the elementary school set – this is hilarious to a third grader – but even the average third grader would have more compassion if someone explained PTSD to them.

    12. RagingADHD*

      1) Tell your boss and HR that you are dx with PTSD and that you have been able to hold it together so far, but its only a matter of time before you may have an uncontrollable physical reaction to this type of trigger. Document this conversation.

      2)Have the same convo with the bullies. Document it, and make sure boss & HR have copies.

      3) If it happens again, scream like a banshee and punch them in the face as hard as you can. Naturally, you should then apologise profusely and say, “this is exactly what I was afraid would happen.”

      They are bullies. Some bullies just will not stop until you make them stop.

    13. Emilitron*

      I worry that the kind of person who’d think it was funny to startle you would think it’s even funnier if you swear and scream. “Wow, she doesn’t just jump, she flips out, let’s see what happens next time!” The fact that you don’t mention the manager makes me wonder if you’ve got a non-managing kind of manager and/or if the manager is one of the offenders, but no matter what I’d definitely talk to them in their office in the context of “I have made an appointment to talk to my manager about a problem in the office that is affecting my ability to do work”, and explain how these events are harming the office productivity and team function.

  81. Mbarr*

    I just learned today that a Senior VP has photographic memory… And I accidentally made a joke about his baldness. No advice needed, just thought I’d share my self-face-palm with you.

    I was in an “Intro the business” meeting with him yesterday along with a bunch of co-op students (I’m a senior full-timer and have known him for a few months socially). The one co-op student was chit chatting before the meeting, talking about how she cut off her hair because the water in this city is so hard, yada yada yada.

    The conversation felt a bit awkward, cause the meeting was obviously ready to begin, and it made the girl sound a bit vacuous. To try end it, I joked to the VP, “Can you relate to this conversation at all?” (I meant it in the, “You’re a guy with super short hair, you probably don’t care about hair maintenance” but I realized it could have been a jab at his receding hairline.)
    He laughed, then jokingly (I think) said, “Well, I was ready to get started, but now I’m all flustered at Mbarr’s joke!” The meeting then continued as planned.

    I’m pretty sure he was joking and am laughing at my foot in the mouth. I was relating this story to a coworker who then informed me he has a photographic memory… And now I’m just facepalming myself…

    1. Quill*

      Reminds me of the time a teacher, who I admired greatly, mentioned in passing that she had a family member who was a speechwriter for Nixon.

      In front of god, the AP psych class, and everyone, I immediately blurted out “Oh god, please tell me ‘I am not a crook,’ wasn’t one of his.”

      … your faux pas may not be forgotten, but it will probably be forgiven.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Maybe he’ll remember you as the person who treated him like a fellow human and not a vaunted executive, and dared to make a little joke. :-)

  82. stitchinthyme*

    Not a question, just a bit of happiness that I am finally back on a normal schedule! For the last month I’ve been doing daily hyperbaric oxygen treatments for a recent episode of hearing loss. Because it was a huge chunk out of every weekday afternoon, I was coming into work really early and leaving late to make up the time. Luckily, my workplace is flexible so they didn’t have a problem with it, but the schedule was really exhausting, and I also couldn’t go to the gym or carpool with my husband (who works in the next town) like I usually do — didn’t want to subject him to those crazy hours. But now it’s over and I can have my life back. (My company actually offered to let me do less than 40 hours a week with no pay reduction, but I didn’t want to ask for special favors.)

    Unfortunately, the treatment didn’t seem to have any effect, but I’m understanding more every day with the cochlear implant that I recently got in my other ear, so at least there’s that. And I’d have regretted it if I hadn’t at least tried everything the doctors recommended for this new hearing loss.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      I’m sorry your new treatment didn’t work, but yay for your implant helping you to understand things! I hope that keeps progressing, and congratulations on getting back on your normal schedule.

  83. NGL*

    Questions about starting with a temp agency.

    My husband has been working freelance (digital marketing consultant) for about three years now, and he’s ready to get back into an office. The constant hustle of searching for clients is wearing him down, and now that we have a kid he wants more stability in income.

    He’s a bit adrift on where to get started. He’s not super sold on getting back into the same industry he left a few years back (it certainly isn’t one known for high pay), but doesn’t otherwise know where to start looking. My suggestion was to sign up with a few temp agencies, giving him a chance to try different industries/companies, as well as build up some more recent references.

    Sound reasonable? Neither of us have ever worked with a temp agency before so we’re both in unknown territory.

    1. zora*

      Yes, this is a great reason to use agencies!!
      Also, most of them nowadays call themselves “Staffing” agencies, they aren’t just handling temporary positions, they are also often helping to fill permanent positions as well.

      See if you can get any referrals from people to the agencies in your area. Anyone who has worked with them as a client or as an employee. And find out which are the easiest to work with/have the best candidates. And reach out.

      I used agencies a few times. Sometimes when moving to a new city, and then when moving from nonprofit to forprofit. I usually worked some short term positions for 2-3 months, but once they had some glowing responses from candidates, would usually get me placed in a temp-to-perm pretty quickly. It’s a great way to try out some different jobs and meet some different companies, and you can tell the agency when you are ready to find a more long-term position. They also love to have strong workers to send to clients: people who work hard and are skilled and professional. So, it’s a win-win!

  84. Avid reader infrequent commenter*

    Halp! I haven’t done this in six years and was never in this situation-

    Interviewed last week. It went fabulous. They said they had more interviews to do, of course, so not to expect a call until sometime this week. Knowing how it can always take longer than expected, I haven’t worried that no call has come through yet.

    Until my current manager mentioned they called her on Monday, but she was out of office until Wednesday, and couldn’t return the call til then. She had a great conversation with them and all sounds super positive and hopeful.

    Thing is, my other two references are 1) out of office all week until today (for this one, I messaged her this morning, and she’s checking her voicemail to see if she missed anything). My other reference hasn’t mentioned anything (and he would, I think, based on previous experiences and interactions) and has been out of office for 3 days.

    Do I let this play out and let the hiring manager call me first if he absolutely has to have contact with 3 positive references and needs mor info, or should I reach out to him later today if I haven’t heard anything and give him an alternate? I’m so out of practice, I don’t know what to do here!

    1. fposte*

      If I’m reading correctly, the references are available now; if so, I don’t think there’s any point in offering an alternate. If you’d known they were calling on, say, Monday you could have mentioned it then if they needed to talk to somebody ASAP, but at this point there’s no time advantage to another name. I’d also say it’s not likely to sink you; this is just stuff that happens with references and why they can be a PITA.

  85. GigglyPuff*

    Sadness this week on the job front. I had to withdraw from one because while it was almost two hours from the closest major cities and Walmart was the major grocery store, the COL was almost the same as my current major city, and they were upfront with the salary and it was less than I make now.
    Also got the e-mail today saying that while I was eligible for a fairly high level GS federal job (that had positions open across the country), I wasn’t referred because by law there were other applicants that got first referral. Sucks, but they are literally tagged the job open to all the categories of people, so I figured they got a lot of applicants that weren’t just regular public.
    So I decided to order some Insomnia cookies to the office, and got the ice cream to go with it for the first time.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Insomnia cookies are great medicine, though. I’m sorry you had such a rough go of it, but I highly approve of your choice of self-medication.

  86. Masquerade*

    I seemed to have learned to block out my noisy coworker, but I can tell she’s getting frustrated when I don’t hear her the first time if she tries to talk to me.

    The coworker I sit closest to (maybe 3 feet away from) makes a lot of noises during the workday. She takes quite a few personal calls, does not keep her phone on silent or vibrate, and sings, hums, talks to herself, does the clickyclickyclicky pen thing, taps feet and nails on surfaces, a lot of heavy throat clearing, etc. I eat at my desk during the day so I realize I’m not silent either. As a result, I’ve actually gotten quite good at working with headphones and ignoring all of it!

    However sometimes I’ll see her throw her hands up while looking at me out of the corner of my eye and realize she’s tried to ask me something. We don’t work on overlapping projects at all so many of the questions are about very general things or personal questions. I don’t mind having a friendly relationship with her, but if I don’t wear headphones and mentally filter her out I wouldn’t get anything done. The way our office is set up I can’t work elsewhere, and the noises don’t bother me too badly anymore as long as I have something playing through headphones. It just seems like she’s getting more and more frustrated and I feel bad, but I need to be able to work.

    1. Kathenus*

      Maybe you can have a conversation with her and agree upon a consistent way for her to get your attention – knock on the desk, wave a hand, whatever. If you openly discuss the situation and come up with an agreed upon way to deal, it might solve the problem before it becomes a big thing.

      1. valentine*

        There’s a massive difference between eating for a set time (versus all day) and constant noise/movement. If you haven’t already, tell her the headphones are for her constant stream and she can email/IM you.

    2. LKW*

      Do you have an IM system at work? Easiest way for her to get your attention may be to simply type QQ? and you’d just confirm or say “give me five” or whatever.

    3. Rexasaurus Tea*

      Does your office have a chat program like Slack? If so, you could try asking her to send you a DM when she has a question for you rather than trying to get your attention in person. Maybe say that you get really into certain tasks and don’t always notice what’s happening around you, but a Slack message puts up an alert right on your screen where you can’t miss it.

      If she doesn’t want to ask the actual question over Slack, she could just say “hey, quick question for ya” to get your attention. A big advantage to using Slack is that it keeps the message history, so if it’s something she’s asked you before she can just scroll back to find it rather than having to ask you again.

      1. Masquerade*

        I like everyone’s IM suggestions! I think this has the added benefit of cutting down on a lot of the questions, as answers to many of them can probably be found on the IM system itself and it would feel weird (to me at least) to DM someone over a work account just to ask about their significant other or weekend plans.

  87. Mimi Me*

    I am frustrated with my job this week – to the point that I’m bringing the stress of the day home with me. I’ve worked here for over 5 years and that has never happened before! To be fair, it’s not the job itself that has me down, it’s a person I work with. I work in healthcare and what the company provides requires several departments working to get our patients what they need. To use the teapot anaolgy: one person reads the instructions on how to assemble the teapot correctly while three others gather the teapot parts, find out how the patient will use the teapot, and teach the patient to use the teapot the way it should be used. Once the three people have done their parts the first person can now assemble the teapot and ship it to the patient. It’s very fast paced work and requires all the teams to do their parts and communicate info correctly. Recently I was moved to another team and have been having issues with one of the people. She’s not doing her job and it’s impacting how I am able to do my work. My supervisor is 100% on board and agrees with my assessments. What is frustrating is that while management is in complete agreement that she’s not doing her job, she doesn’t report to the same management team as I do. I’ve been told that there are meetings planned with her supervisor and that hopefully there will be some kind of investigation into what she is and isn’t doing. My supervisor has said that she’ll most likely be put on a PIP by the end of the month. That’s all well and good, but in the meantime I am having to not only read the instructions on how to assemble the teapot – I have to gather all the materials as well which is equally as time consuming as I don’t have all the info I need for that task. The patients we are helping are now waiting longer for their teapots to make them better. Already I’ve been working overtime trying to get ahead of the issues, but in the meantime our workload has also increased so I’m really never pulling ahead. I just want them to assign a new person to the team – one who will do what needs to be done. It’s really upsetting to me that there isn’t a faster review process in place for this issue. And it’s really bothering me that for the first time in years I’ve started to dislike my job. :(

    1. Kathenus*

      This may not be the suggestion you want to hear, and I know you said that management is planning to deal with this, but sometimes you need to stop fixing the problems so that the consequences are more severe to let their be a stronger motivation to solve the problem sooner. Yes, this may negatively impact some patients with delays, but in the long run it will help by getting a more efficient team going and not at the expense of your mental health. Stop working overtime to deal with her part of the process – do yours, do it well, and let her part fail so that management has to deal with the situation with more urgency.

      1. chronicallyIllin*

        Hard agree on this.

        I’m chronically ill and it does suck when there’s delays from doctors on things I need, but I also know and understand how the workers can get overwhelmed. I absolutely do not want you or any other worker to be trying to pull 50/60 hour weeks unpaid/underpaid when management is failing to do their job. Please push back and take care of yourself.

    2. Koala dreams*

      Well, if your company don’t feel this problem is urgent, you probably shouldn’t work overtime to solve it. Save your overtime for the things that are important to your company. In the worst case, your department might want to stop taking on new patients for a couple of months until you have worked through the backlog. It’s super disappointing when that happens but sometimes it’s the only way forward. In healthcare it’s always more work to do so you need to make sure that you don’t overwork yourself. It’s always sad when the teapot people get burned out from too much work and has to quit.

  88. Anon PhD*

    Hi All – need your advice on two things related to having finished a PhD. I’ve posted here before about a few challenges with getting to the finish line, but to quickly recap – I had a defense, then a major revision and my dissertation got accepted in the summer. Huge burden off my shoulders and big success, BUT lots of various papers on and around my desk still. I purged all older printed copies of my thesis already and many rough notes. But here is what I am still going back and forth on:
    1) What paperwork do I keep? I have many printed journal papers that I used as references. I also have many important preparatory notes/crib sheets that I used to prepare for my defense; some are on my laptop, but some are handwritten. I have about 7 notebooks where I kept notes as I progressed with my thesis/experiments/discussions with my supervisor. My apartment isn’t too big, but I’m scared of dumping out the wrong thing.

    2) How do I thank my committee? I got a ludicrous suggestion from a friend in arts to mail each person a box of chocolates and a bound copy of my thesis…it is EXPENSIVE to print and bind a thesis. Printing the thesis for the defense cost a pretty penny already (no funding from supervisor covered it). Plus I am in STEM and our mostly male dept is probably not the box-of-chocolates touchy feely bunch. If it helps wrt painting the picture in terms of customs and such, both me and the university are located in a major Canadian city. This wasn’t a straighforward defense (hence the major revision). One prof seemed to really have it in for me and supervisor (politics or whatever) and on the one hand, his antagonizing attitude and comments made the defense grueling and triggered the major revision, but at the same time his criticism actually made both my writing and my dissertation better in the end. My supervisor was totally and completely unhelpful during the major revision and kept minimizing the work I had to get done, constantly kept asking “I don’t understand why you’re taking so long”. He was doing research in another country while I was grappling with the major revisions and near the VERY end of this ordeal, like literally about 1-2 weeks before the revised thesis was due to be submitted to the committee, and OUT OF NOWHERE implied I needed a new chapter. I had to escalate to the dean, who was amazing and swiftly resolved things and of course, I didn’t need the new chapter. The rest of the committee were great, including the examiner from outside of the university. The external examiner will get a lovely thank you card, but I don’t know what is correct about the rest.

    Any tips will be truly appreciated.

    1. E*

      Can you scan the documents? That way they don’t take up physical space but if you should need to reference anything, it’s still available.

      1. Anon PhD*

        You’re right, I definitely could. Going to Staples would make it faster than my small scanner at home.

    2. fposte*

      Bound copy of thesis was absolutely traditional at my U.S. humanities school, not really even as a thank you. But that was here and a few decades ago; I’d check with fellow students or a recent graduate to see what the conventions are there and now, but deffo be prepared for a bound copy as a possibility whether you got on with them or not.

      1. Reba*

        Wow. I know this isn’t in any way outlandish as a practice, but if I were faculty I feel like I would be baffled to receive my student’s thesis… and I kinda doubt any of my people would want one. Every academic I know is trying to *shed* books. :)

        I submitted the diss totally online, so might never have made a paper copy. (Eventually I ordered a copy from the printer to make it easier for loved ones who expressed interest to flip through it).

        I sent chocolates and/or gifts from field research along with thank you notes to the committee. I gave the gifts after the defense, though probably to be totally ethically watertight I should have done it after everything was all approved and in. Defenses in my department were — not casual, but not adversarial, and the possibility of “bribery by cookies” was a running gag.

        Finished in 2018, humanities, big state U.

        1. Reba*

          Oh also, your supervisor is a dick. Basic courtesy thank-you to that one.

          I want to add that I genuinely really like and admire everyone on my committee, so my experience with this was nowhere near as fraught as yours!

          1. Anon PhD*

            So glad you had a good committee, everyone deserves a good committee. And thanks you’re right, he is a dick, probably not a total dick but definitely crappy, it is for sure a fraught relationship…I should add I had a health issue come up during this time and he still went on with his nonsense. I can’t completely alienate him, because at some point or other he may need to be a reference/may co-author a paper. His recent emails about a publication have had a more positive tone…keeping him at arms’ length. Deep sigh and eyeroll.

        2. fposte*

          It definitely may have changed; I’m glad to hear other reports that suggest that’s the case. And it wasn’t even that they desperately wanted it (and we all knew it was going to gather dust)–it was just the Thing That Was Done.

    3. TR*

      I don’t think you need to do much. The bound copy of the thesis will just collect dust (sorry!). I just did something small, a mug printed with something relevant to my dissertation topic as a token of my appreciation. A thank you card is good to go along. No one should really expect something big. You could do something like a bottle of wine if you think they would appreciate it.

    4. PantaloonsOnFire*

      Congrats to you! I too was reluctant to part with draft materials from my dissertation and notes from my defense, but honestly I haven’t looked at any of them since my dissertation was submitted and accepted (about 5 years ago now). Whether or not you keep drafts and reference materials may depend on whether you are planning to rework any of your dissertation for publication and/or expand on this research in future publications. Notes, especially from the defense, are unlikely to help you in the long run. Just transcribe any particularly useful comments or thoughts onto another document for longer-term retention.

      Definitely do not buy bound copies of your dissertation for all the committee members! I hate that this is such a racket. Maybe get one as a keepsake for yourself, if you want, but don’t spend that kind of money on your committee. A polite note/card of thanks is a fantastic way to go. Tasty treats optional if you felt the committee member really helped develop you as a scholar. Some kind of acknowledgment is certainly warranted, though, especially if you want to keep these people in your professional network.

      1. Anon PhD*

        Thanks :) really appreciate both your tips. The Arts friend might be out of touch with current norms…she even suggested a pricey bottle of wine as a gift…as if! I’ll buy that for myself and drink it, that ain’t for a PITA supervisor lol.

    5. Artemesia*

      When I finished back in the dark ages it was assumed that the committee would get bound copies of the theses they supervised and yes it was expensive. Certainly the chair should. Perhaps you could mail the others a PDF. No gift is required, but a nice note from you that focuses on the particular help they provided is minimal. for someone who was a PITA a more generic thanks for his efforts on the committee will suffice.

      1. Anon PhD*

        Thanks for the advice :) The others actually all have a pdf since they all had to review and accept it after the major revision was done (and there were no more revisions requested…whew! I cried when I saw the final acceptance email). Seems like thank-you cards are the way to go and likely a bound thesis for myself, maaayybeee one for the committee chair.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          Consider a print on demand service. There’s no need for a committee chair to need the highly durable binding you get from the binding service your university library uses.

  89. AwkwardTurtle*

    I have a phone interview next week. Besides reading the AAM archives, smiling while talking, having your notes and resume in front of you, and a glass of water nearby, what else would help during the call?

    1. Kathenus*

      For me I had my notes ready in a way to make certain things very easy to find. So one page with STRENGTHS in big letters on top with bullet point ideas, same for weaknesses/accomplishments/challenges/goals/whatever. This way I wasn’t trying to look through one set of notes with lots of topics included, I had them separated out so I could very quickly pull out that one as a reference during the call. Also have your questions for them written out for the end of the interview. Organization was the key for me, and being comfortable and minimizing distractions (especially ones that might cause noise on the call – for me this was making sure my pets were secured elsewhere and could not impact the call at all). Good luck!

    2. wingmaster*

      The most important thing for me is being comfortable, so making sure I’m at a good location with little to no distractions. Along with my notes and resume, I also would have a printout of the job description in front of me.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Test your equipment if you’re using anything other than just your phone (headphones, bluetooth, etc). Note that if you’re going to take it in your car, unpair the bluetooth – for some reason cars are notorious about blasting phone calls loud enough to hear them across a parking lot (true story: I was once on the phone with my MIL while my husband ran into the grocery store and he told me later he could hear our conversation all the way into the store). Make sure to minimize any possible disruptions – have your pets locked away if you’re at home, make sure no one will drop by your office if you’re risking it there, etc.

      Good luck!

    4. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Get dressed as if you were going to an in-person interview. Have a place were you can sit comfortably but not too comfortable, such as a desk or table (not a sofa or bed or something similar). Treat it basically as an in-person interview. Even though they can’t see you, you still need to present yourself as a professional and your surroundings will influence how you sound on the phone.

      Also, get rid of distractions. Use a quiet room where you can lock yourself in.

      Assuming you are doing this from home:
      Make sure the pet/child(ren)/SO/roommate/anyone else won’t disturb you. I would be tempted to say to disconnect the doorbell but that might be overkill.

      1. Jamie*

        Dressing for the interview is great advice for most people, I got into a weird state of mind when out of work and went the other way.

        Lucky socks, favorite giant sweatshirt, no pants, and my hair in a high pony tail. Idk why but something about feeling subversive made me more confident. Fwiw every phone interview turned into an in person one.

        It’s about feeling confident and for a lot of people it’s interview attire…for me it was letting my inner weirdo loose.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My biggies are connectivity and external distractions. If you’re on a portable connection of any kind, remember not to pace into a dead zone. If you have any other phone that could ring, turn it off. If you’re doing Skype, set your status to do not disturb.
      One habit from my TC days…if I’m doing a Skype call from home I assume I could need to share screen. And the video feed button is so close to the screen sharing button, I assume it could get turned on. (Again. LOL.) So I wear at least corporate casual, pick a location without kid clutter, and use an innocuous background screen.

    6. Mellow*

      I went the dollar store, bought a couple of children’s large drawing pads, and used the blank backs of those to write out categories of what I’d thought I’d be asked (“Why this position?”, “What’s your experience with X?”, etc.). Then studies these.

      I took a shower, ate a good breakfast, and dressed the part, but without makeup. Something about being dressed for an interview, even while “only” on a telephone pre-screen, helped me sound more interview-ish.

      I made absolutely sure I was in front of the phone and ready to go 15 minutes before actual call time, and then I talked out loud to myself to get my voice calibrated.

      As I read my answers from my notes, I’d try to sound as less scripted as possible, prefacing statements with “Well, I think that…” and drawing out what I’d written into concise but comprehensive streams of consciousness – takes practice!

      Good luck to you!

  90. Jasmine*

    1 week to go until I leave this kitchen of disfunction and go back to university! I am so done. Not sure I can fake another week of enthusiasm.

  91. Ms. Weird*

    What do you do when someone *outside* your organization keeps using Ms./Mr. to address you and others?

    A contact I’m working with at one of our clients always addresses me in email as “Ms. Mylastname” and signs off as “Ms. Herlastname”. She (and occasionally others in her office) will refer to other people as “Ms. Doe” or “Mr. Smith”. I sign off all my emails with my first name, it honestly feels weird to me to address someone as Ms. or Mr.

    This just seems to be the culture of their office. They are based in the Southern US, and my experience with my own Southern extended family is that there are sometimes different benchmarks for politeness. Part of me says to just roll with it and use Ms./Mr. even though it’s weird to me, but another part of me says to just use first names as usual. Any thoughts? Am I being unnecessarily weird about this?

    1. Peaches*

      Since she is referring to herself as ‘Ms. Herlastname’, I would continue addressing her that what since that’s presumably how she wants to be addressed. I agree that it’s weird, but it may for whatever reason be her preference. I’d continue addressing everyone else by their first names via email unless you see some indication that they, too want to be addressed a different way.

    2. JustMyImagination*

      I typically address my emails however the other person signs off on their own. So if they are referring to themselves as “Ms/Mr”, I would start emails to them with “Ms/Mr”.

    3. tacos rock*

      This is SUPER COMMON in education, at least where I am. Address her as Ms. Lastname, sign your own emails the way you wish to be addressed. Also in calls, say “Hi! This is Firstname calling from Company!” so she knows how to address you

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve been known to say “Every time I hear someone ask for Mrs. Childhood, I look around for my motherinlaw.”

    5. Spargle*

      Roll with it unless it’s offending you. Address her as Ms., sign your emails however you want to. If it truly bothers you, then you can ask her to call you FirstName – which may be super weird for HER, so then you have the situation where whose uncomfortable feelings get validated, and whose aren’t.

      If it’s not buggin’, leave it be.

    6. Oh No She Di'int*

      Yes, I think you call people how they wish to be called. This is no different to me than a transgender person asking to be called Paula now rather than Paul. You call her Paula. Period. Your feelings on the matter are irrelevant. Interpersonal respect is what matters here.

  92. Risk Averse*

    I am currently interviewing for an executive director position in a smaller but very stable nonprofit. They are hiring an executive director for the first time in 20 years and the previous executive director was a co-founder of the organization. They are looking for someone with fundraising skills, financial planning / analysis, and organizational change experience. I have all three in spades.

    First round interview went well, they asked for my references. Great! And then, yesterday, I received a message asking me to complete a psychometric evaluation (PXT Select). This was not disclosed to me as part of the process when I inquired at the interview.

    I just took the assessment and honestly, I am angry. The assessment was like the SAT all over again. If train A is traveling X mph and train B traveling Y mph, how many miles until they meet; if Dan is 2 years younger than Jim and Jim is 25% younger than Patricia, how old is Dan; an entire algebraic section; an entire section on analogies; an entire section on synonyms. Plus behavioral and interest questions.

    While I not opposed to the idea of behavioral and interest questions, I cannot understand how knowing synonyms for ‘obfuscate’ and high school algebra off the top of my head is useful, especially when it comes to the strategy of budgeting, fundraising, cash flow, and general nonprofit management. I’ve taken emergentics, strength finders, DISC and I do find them interesting and, dependent upon the circumstances, incredibly useful. I’m happy to provide writing samples for successful government and private grants, happy to analyze a budget, happy to sit down for further interviews, but right now, I feel insulted.

    Is this type of testing normal and I didn’t realize it? Or is this a red flag?

    1. Kathenus*

      Meh, I don’t like these but I think they’re relatively common. My current employer uses a different company for this, and when I applied I felt like I was doing a combination of the SAT, Meyers-Briggs, and an IQ test all in one. Annoying, especially since I had no idea how long it would take when I started, but I just rolled my eyes and did it. I don’t see it as a red flag, just an annoyance. Now that I’m a hiring manager at the same place, I personally don’t put much stock in the reports that we get based on it, but I know some of our managers do. Different strokes, I guess.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’m sorry I don’t have any insight on the testing, but that sounds so aggravating!

      Would you mind if I ask, how you acquired the skills necessary to become an ED? I’m currently a fundraiser and that’s a career path I’d love to get on, but I don’t know how to demonstrate financial acumen and organizational responsibility in a role that is very clearly defined as “meet donors, get money”. I’m thinking about what my next step would look like and hoping to pivot out of major gift work and into something with a bit more organizational responsibility, but I’m not sure what that looks like. Thanks!

      1. zora*

        I’m not the OP, but can you ask your current boss if you can help with more things because you want to learn more? At one job I helped my boss with various parts of the budgeting process through the year, saved him time and I got to learn about it. Or hiring in your department, or creating departmental plans for the year. All things you could ask to learn more about, while also helping out.

      2. Risk Averse*

        Sorry for the late reply — kiddo came home sick from school.

        In general, I gained the experience through a willingness to learn and volunteer for projects beyond my job scope. It helps that I’m naturally curious and seem to make friends in varying departments fairly easily. If you are in fundraising, go chat with your finance people about grants accounting or if you could assist with pulling documents for the annual financial audit. Chat with the program staff about how the day-to-day is going on certain projects and you will likely get new funding ideas (I wrote a capacity building grant for new office furniture and computer equipment for a satellite office after visiting). Volunteer for committees like health and welfare benefits (or in my case, demand a committee to finally rid your org of a terrible 403b vendor) or technology adoption.

        Longer story, I always call my experience the jungle gym theory of advancement. After getting my BA and MA degrees, I finished my JD and did litigation for a bit of time. While I ultimately did not stay with it, I did a significant amount of writing, strategic analysis, and developing soft skills (angry clients, angry counsel, difficult judges etc). I parlayed that experience into a program manager position at a legal nonprofit, albeit it a very niche area of business law. I took on grant writing and reporting responsibilities and volunteered for various committee work, including the committee to develop and implement the strategy for the city’s first giving day.

        At my last employer (I resigned this summer due to a host of toxic workplace issues), I started in operations and finance but ended up supervising development and communications alongside operations. Learned a lot about vendor management, shifting an org from cash to accrual accounting (never again will I undertake that project!), technological platform adoption etc. I was the staff liaison on several board committees and was tasked with helping recruit new board members.

        So in short, just ask if you can help! It’s worked out for me in learning an organization but also the people who can help you get things done in a pinch!

    3. zora*

      This type of testing is not normal and is super crazy bananapants to have as part of hiring.

      But also, keep in mind, you would be the new ED! You would have the authority to propose eliminating this test and changing the hiring process. This might be something the outgoing ED thought of, and everyone would be fine with revisiting. Especially considering they’ve been there for 20 years.

      So, my advice would be to try to let go of my anger, and continue in the interview process. But asking LOTS of questions about how open everyone is going to be to change (staffers as well as the board) and keep your eyes open. It’s not like you’d be coming in as a middle-manager, if people are ready to take advantage of the new leadership to improve things, this is a ripe target, and you would have the power to do it! But if peopel seem reallly defensive and stuck in their ways, then I’d definitely run away fast, because this is definitely something that has to go.

      1. Risk Averse*

        I’ve come to the same conclusion. I see some significant red flags (communicating only via a generic email account, emails at 9pm, questions about “how important is it to not rock the boat”,defensiveness about minimal benefits) but I am weighing against getting my foot in the door with the title. It is really hard in my market to land the first ED position but once you do, so many more doors open up.

        Plus, with the org not having a true ED ever and a board composed primarily of community volunteers, I think there is a lot of room for introducing professional norms / standards. I think how they use this assessment will be telling in the openness to change.

    4. tamarack and fireweed*

      Goodness gracious, that’s an awful way to go about it. (I have no idea how common tests are in other sectors – all I can say that tests should at a minimum be directly related to the skills they’re hiring for, and even then I see valid criticism in spades.)

      On the plus side, if you get to being hired you are either in a position to do something about this, or you should have realized during the hiring process how is driving this misguided crap (maybe a board member who has an ownership stake in a testing company?). But even if not, maybe there’s room for feedback, formulated very neutrally and calmly, explaining the inappropriateness of the test.

  93. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    This is a long one, so TLDR: My division promised new work-life balance policies that they’re now making impossible to access, and it’s making me question whether my organization values me, if my work matters, etc.

    I need a reality check here guys. Is this actually a problem or am I being crazy?

    The head of my division (about 35 people) just announced a series of new policies aimed at creating better work-life balance for staff. They include things like flexible schedules, working from home up to two days per week, and a dog-friendly office. These perks were announced and discussed at an all-staff meeting and the VP made it clear they would start immediately – in his words, “tomorrow”.  The dog thing came as a real surprise but we’ve been advocating for flexible schedules and WFH for months because our work is portable by design – over half the team travels to client sites on a regular basis. We get along just fine by marking on our calendars where we’ll be and when we’re in meetings, so I assumed WFH would be treated like this. I should also note that there is definitely a business need to increase our “work-life” benefits; we are having trouble recruiting qualified applicants, there is high turnover, and I suspect we will not get pay raises this year due to not meeting revenue goals (we’re a nonprofit).

    Shortly thereafter, my manager asked my team (about 6 people) to decide what schedule we’d want to commit to from now on. There was some back and forth about whether WFH days needed to be scheduled in advance or could be determined based on meetings, client travel, etc. It resulted in my manager a) suggesting he thought the VP wanted us to pick a set, unalterable schedule for which days we’d work from home but that he’d clarify this with the VP, and b) asking each team member to send their preferred schedule/work arrangement to him, making clear that this was not time sensitive and we could take our time to think it over before deciding. I knew what I wanted and immediately sent my request.

    It’s now several days after the team meeting and a week after the new policies were announced. I just emailed my boss to share that I had planned to utilize the WFH benefit in two days and asked for confirmation it was approved. My manager quickly responded that it was not approved, as he had not yet received all schedule requests and would need to receive them all and have the VP review and approve each one before any changes could be made to our schedule. When I asked for clarification on the timeframe, he indicated he hoped to have it resolved within “weeks, not months”.

    This seems crazy to me and I’m now doubting the sincerity of these new policies. My organization has had a formal work from home policy for years, but my VP has always resisted allowing my division to participate (despite our work literally being designed to be performed remotely). It’s frankly ridiculous that a VP would spend time approving each individual staff member’s schedule and WFH arrangements! I was also planning to bring my dog to work, but I’m now incredibly anxious that if she whines* (she’s still young and fairly needy) or somehow makes herself known, I’ll get the policy taken away for everyone. I’m also unsure whether I can trust when the manager and VP say it’s ok to change my hours or work from home.

    This whole situation is making me anxious that I’m doing the wrong thing and that I can’t believe what my leadership tells me. There are also a lot of work-related issues going on, where my manager isn’t advocating for my team, letting us get steamrolled by other groups, and piling workload onto our plates while saying that “everything is a priority, just get it all done”. I’ve only been here a year and fully intend(ed) to stay at least five before moving out of this industry, but I’m feeling so demotivated and unappreciated that I don’t know how much longer I can make it. 

    I don’t know if I have a question (other than the big internal ones that will require soul-searching or maybe therapy), but I guess I’d like to know if I’m being crazy or not? I’m in my late 20s and this is my third organization in this field, so I think I have a sense of what’s normal in a workplace but maybe I’m just being the much-maligned millennial snowflake.

    * I know that when it comes to the dog the answer might be that my dog might not be the right fit for the office, but my concern is how can I trust what my managers tell me, both about supporting these benefits but also in work-related matters more generally.

    1. Kathenus*

      I see the frustration, but organizations can be so bureaucratic especially with big culture changes. While it might be great if these new initiatives were fully thought out just able to be used right away, in my experience it’s not uncommon for these types of growing pains. Our company is doing a new initiative right now that in my opinion is going to run into this, because they are trying to start a huge new program without testing out small parts first, and I think it’s going to stumble for a while because they’re biting off too much to start with.

      So you might need to take the longer view before judging the success or failure of it, for better or worse I think that what you describe happening in the initial roll-out is pretty common, hopefully the kinks will be worked out in the first few weeks/months and it’ll be the benefit you hope it will be.

    2. Bilateralrope*

      My first thought is that it’s your manager who doesn’t want to implement the new policies, and he’s making stuff up to make it look like someone else’s decision.

      But that’s mainly because I’ve had exactly that happen to me. It only stopped when the supervisor got fired for something else, so I’ve got no clue how you should proceed.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I think you’re right. This WFH thing is happening at the same time a lot of issues are popping up in our work, and I’m seeing that he just doesn’t have the managerial prowess needed in this role. He’s paralyzed every time he has to make a decision and clearly doesn’t trust his (highly qualified, experienced) staff to do their work. It’s very frustrating.

    3. Toodie*

      Maybe you could suggest starting off with one day per week for everyone, so they could get a taste and work out the kinks? There usually *are* a couple things that need to be figured out, both for the org and for the individual workers, and this might help ease the transition.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Unfortunately I’m not in a position to make any suggestions about policy (I work for a university, it’s very hierarchical). I think I’m just feeling disempowered over a lot of other work issues and this is where my rage is manifesting, lol.

        1. Windchime*

          Workplaces need to wake up to the reality that many jobs can be done remotely, and there really are fewer and fewer reasons why people should need to fight traffic to sit at a desk when they can do the same work from a different desk at home. My workplace recently relaxed the WFH policy a little more (now we can have up to 2 days from home), and it has been a game-changer. I no longer dread my commute, because I know I only have to do it three days a week instead of five. I don’t have to get up at 4:30 AM in order to beat the traffic on those days. I get more done from home with less effort.
          I think my workplace finally gave in because people were leaving in droves. When all the other hospitals in town allow 2 or 3 WFH days for IT workers, why would anyone stay at ours?

  94. frustrated*

    I’m an account manager at a SaaS technology startup. We’re a small company so our team wears many hats on a given project. A few months ago our team hired a project manager to take over the logistics and execution of new implementations.
    He’s the same age as me and has the same years of professional experience but from day one has acted like the rest of us are newbie idiots.
    IE: one day he explained how credit cards work (in the context of paying for work travel) as if the 3 women in our 30s that he was speaking to had never seen or spent money before.

    I can deal with mansplaining and the everyday sexism – I’m very much used to that part of my industry.

    What I’m having a harder time with is the fact that he’s not great at his job. I was on vacation while he was managing projects for two of my accounts. The customers emailed with questions (directed to him, cc’d to me) while I was on vacation and he didn’t answer them. At all. I was out for 2 weeks and came back to an inbox full of customers asking me for updates.
    Project plans have tasks assigned to him with seriously overdue unstarted tasks. I ask for updates and don’t get them – the dates just get pushed out. My compensation is tied to the timely and satisfactory delivery of these projects and his performance is now impacting my finances.
    I’ve tried talking to my boss about the best way to ensure projects stay on track but those conversations end with me feeling like a 5-year-old tattling on her brother.
    Help!

    1. theletter*

      He is a project manager. His job is to manage timelines and provide updates. He is not doing his job. It’s affecting company performance. Talk to your boss. Lead with the overdue projects. The mansplaining is annoying but is more difficult to address.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Absolutely not tattling. This would drive me crazy and I would definitely not risk my compensation on his inability to do his job. He is impeding your work and you have quantifiable metrics to prove it. Lean on those:

      – As you know, for Project 1 I need tasks A, B, and C completed. They were assigned to Joe on x day with a deadline of y, and he has yet to complete them or provide any updates when I requested them.
      – I also referred customers to him, per our process, while I was on vacation. He failed to respond to any customer request for two weeks, thereby delaying critical information/project schedule.

  95. Sindirella*

    Not sure if anyone remembers, but like 2 weeks ago, I had posted here worried about my chances for a promotion after a sorta major/mostly minor breakdown I had at work a little while back. Great news, I got the promotion! A jump in title and major salary bump! Super happy and super excited!! Only a few people responded to my comment last time to reassure me I would be fine, but it was really all I needed since I was seriously considering not even applying for it due to my insecurities!

    1. NeonDreams*

      Awesome Sinderella! (love the play on words there). I didn’t see the original post but I’m glad it worked out for you. Congratulations :)

  96. Catherine de Medici*

    I started my new job as a GS-13 in a different office of my same agency last week and it’s fine. The work is interesting and my boss seems supportive of new initiatives to automate some of our work. But the people aren’t as friendly as my old office and they aren’t very good with onboarding. I haven’t been introduced around yet after two weeks (except to high-level people) and it has been haphazard trying to get the necessary information I need to do my job. I’m sure I just need to give it time but it’s kind of a step down from my previous office. It’s just hard not having anyone to chat with like I did at my old office where everyone was friendly with each other and did happy hours and baseball games together.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Give it time – just as you’re dealing with the newness of it all, they are too. If you’re concerned, why not go up to people and introduce yourself? That may break the ice.

  97. Forget Me Not*

    I waited for this thread to ask the commenters about this hiring process I’ve experienced recently. During the interview with the owner, I was shown two images to choose from. The images were:
    sandwich cut into squares / sandwich cut into rectangulars
    headphones / earphones
    phone with a case / phone without a case
    Sushi with a chopsitck / sushi with a fork
    laptop / desktop computer
    books arranged from bigger to smaler / books arranged randomly
    book with a bookmark / book with a fold on the corner of the page

    Is this normal? What does this test evaluate? I thought it was weird. The owner said there were no wrong answers. I explained all my decisions. The interview went well. Two days after the interview I am hired :) I guess I just want to know what my choices says about me. I tried to google it but could not find anything similar.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      Yo. What? I’ve never heard of such a thing. I bet this is one of those personality tests that interviewers think are so clever. Yuck. Congrats on the job, though!

    2. Amber Rose*

      I mean, if you eat sandwich squares rather than sandwich rectangles, clearly you are some kind of psychopath.

      Just kidding, I have no idea. Sounds like your hiring team found this stuff on Google and thought it was brilliant even though its the opposite thing.

    4. Colette*

      I feel like this is some sort of simplistic personality test. My guesses:
      1) something about order or symmetry (even though everyone knows sandwiches should be cut into triangles because there is less crust that way)
      2) may be related to how interruptible you are (i.e. are you blocking out other people or more open to hearing them)
      3) risk taking (personally, I choose the case every time)
      4) could be related to culture?
      5) mobility/flexibility
      6) do you like order or are you less worried about it
      7) same as 6

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s pretty standard for places that use personality based tests.

      It’s all to gauge what your “style” is.

      Some of them are pretty obscure but it’s about organization and “fit” being traditional vs nontraditional in the end. Like you can eat sushi with a fork but it’s not the traditional way.

      Are you formally organized, by doing things by size or are you just a wherever it lands kind of person, etc.

      It’s hokey and most places don’t put that much stock in them, unless they’re psychos and then you don’t want them either!

      1. Antilles*

        I can see that for some of them, but to anyone who knows *anything* about computers, the laptop/desktop thing is super odd, because the only correct answer is “it depends; what will I be using the computer for and how much traveling will be required for this job?”

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      It’s not normal at all — everyone knows you eat sushi with your fingers.
      Seriously though, it’s a VERY weird thing. I have no bloody idea what the owner is trying to get at.

    7. Parenthetically*

      Argh. Yeah, it’s a conversation prompt to get you chatting with the interviewer about your style and preferences. But it feels about as useful as a Rorschach test.

    8. Koala dreams*

      It sounds like something to encourage friendly discussion, like an ice-breaker. I guess it worked since the interview went well, but still weird. I don’t think your choices says anything in particular about you. :)

  98. rageismycaffeine*

    I am a back-office director of a support function for a higher ed fundraising office. I do not fundraise for a reason: while I am good with people, I am very much an introvert and am exhausted by extended contact with people.

    As we were going to be short-staffed for the chancellor’s box at this weekend’s football game, I was asked if I would help staff the box. I was less than thrilled to be asked, but felt that I should do it. Note that I hate football, as well as not particularly liking to hang out with strangers.

    Now I find out that not only do I have to go to the game, there’s also the VIP reception beforehand. At least there I can drink.

    And I can’t take Monday off because we have staff meetings all day.

    Pray for me.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        You know what, I thought we had training all week but it turns out it doesn’t start until Wednesday. This is definitely doable – though my extrovert boss has shown in the past that he genuinely doesn’t understand that I need that kind of recharge time…

        1. tacos rock*

          You don’t even need to specify that it’s to recharge, could you just say, “since we worked all weekend, and the rest of the week if booked, it makes the most sense to flex my time on Tuesday.” ?

          1. rageismycaffeine*

            I’m salaried. Flex time isn’t really a thing. I don’t often need to put in more than 40 hours, but doing something like this is definitely considered part of the job.

            1. zora*

              well then just call in sick.
              Or say now you have an ‘appointment’ on Monday and you have to be out.

              Only you need to know that your “appointment” is with your couch and a fuzzy blanket.

        2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          Arghh I hate that about higher ed fundraising. You’re expected to be “on” all the time, and even when you are spending a lot of time and energy at work functions outside business hours there’s no consideration for that additional time.

          1. rageismycaffeine*

            Which is exactly why I am not a front-facing person! I like my back office and not having to be on all the time. I’m really dreading this event tomorrow.

  99. ApparentlyIaminamiddlelifecrisis*

    I am an accountant but bored to death of the field.. in my 40s. I would like to go into programming/data science with the goal of working remotely full-time. I live in NYC, and my other option is go for my master’s or CMA/CPA.

    Am I being realistic?

    1. Colette*

      I’m concerned that your goal is to work remotely and not to do programming/data science. Is it the work you want to do or do you want to work remotely?

      Have you considered what options you have with your current education? What don’t you like about your field?

    2. techRando*

      In my experience, remote full-time work is something people get only after three years experience in the field, minimum. If the only reason you’re interested in programming/data science (and the two are very different jobs, although they make use of some of the same skills) is because you want to work remote, I wouldn’t recommend it.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I’m newly in tech (though not in data science or programming), and half my company works remotely full time (including me) – all’s not lost, OP, lol. But yeah, data science and programming are different, so you just need to be clear on which one you’d like to do.

        Like Colette, I’m confused because you talk about wanting to go into tech, but then say maybe you’ll get your CPA. Do you want to be an accountant at a tech company? That may be a nice compromise for you if you can’t make the programming/data science thing work.

    3. North Wind*

      TL;DR
      Maybe there is a way to re-jigger how or where you use your skill set to create a working situation more to your liking.

      I did a mid-life career shift. It ended up not being as dramatic a shift in skill-set as I expected, but it has worked out well. I had to feel my way through various ideas and jobs to get to a good place. I wouldn’t have known that what I do now is an option or that I would enjoy it. I had to just experiment (after giving my brain a good long change of pace).

      I’m in my 40s and worked in the financial industry most of my life in various reporting and analytics roles, a lot of Excel, SQL and later some data visualization tools.

      Some years ago, I stood up in my cube and looked out the window over the city and suddenly realized I hated most things about my job (that I had enjoyed earlier in my career). I tried to push through, but it felt like my brain was deciding to shut down on data-related tasks. No way I could do this for another 20 years. I had no idea how to figure out what to do next. I started saving money. I saw a couple career coaches (didn’t help), looked into going back to school for completely unrelated fields. I was so bored and burned out, nothing really appealed to me. After some time, I had saved enough to quit my job, take some time off, and try to refresh myself.

      I had a nice break, spent time hiking, spent more time with friends, took on some non-professional gig-based work just to do something opposite to what I had been doing my whole life. After awhile, my brain lifted its embargo on data-related thoughts and I started easing back into it.

      I muddled through a few job and business ideas which didn’t pan out, but then got a certification in a data visualization tool I was familiar with and started freelancing. This seems to be working well. I work 100% remotely, and while I am doing work similar to what I used to do, I am mostly just doing the more creative part of it. I intentionally take short term projects, because I get to see and be part of so many different ventures, which satisfies some sense of curiosity, exploration, and adventure. Also, actually completing a project, being done with it and having my mind clear to move on to something completely new keeps my soul from going comatose.

    4. Dancing Otter*

      Alternate suggestion:
      TLDR – become the person who both knows accounting and can talk to IT.

      IT and Finance don’t always communicate very well. For example, IT wants minimum customization of a software package which will receive periodic updates, because the customization will have to be updated each time. Legitimate concern from their viewpoint. Finance wants the software to serve the business needs of the company. They can’t find a package tailored to their needs right out of the box, so they really need customization, or it won’t do what they need it to do. Cue ominous mood music and prepare for the battle.

      Another example is implementation of new accounting systems. Accounting (purchasing, receiving, treasury, etc.) and IT need to work together, obviously, despite each not really understanding or respecting what the other group actually does.

      For the best part of twenty years, I was the intermediary between the two groups. I know accounting (CPA), but I gravitated toward the technology side with system testing, system conversions, system customization (mostly design specs rather than programming), project management, process improvement and training, and data management. Did I mention cleaning up the results when the two sides did NOT play nicely together? I wouldn’t go back to straight accounting for all the tea in China.

      Does this sound like something you would enjoy?

  100. NeonDreams*

    Rant of the day: I was cross trained into Department B a little more than a year ago. The rules are much different than my original Department A. We’re supposed to call a help line staffed by internal employees if we need help on a call. Yesterday I had a caller was stressed about sensitive info (which she had every right to be.) This department’s help line is not always accessible . I tried that 3 times and couldn’t get through. So I asked my management for help. They’re not trained in Department B. They reach out to Department B’s management, who’s like, send us an email, we’ll get back to you. Meanwhile, I didn’t understand a thing on how to help this customer. So I’m desperately trying to get help and being told to message a group and they’ll get back to me at their convenience. It still pisses me off a day later. Some things are sensitive and need immediate response. This was one of them.

    Granted, this is one of a laundry list of things I hate about Department B. I don’t expect to hear from m job interview any time some (government is slow as molasses) and I haven’t heard about the other position I applied to. So I’m stuck here for now.

    Finally: unexpectedly awesome of the day: I was whining about going in this morning and my dad says, Any job duty you perform can be done without harm to your self. Something like that. It encouraged me. My dad doesn’t always get it right with emotions, but when he does… it’s pretty profound. I’m grateful for it.

  101. Public Facing Librarian*

    What the what? Recap. Ex board member of Library Friends Board who called out my poor public service, needs to be supervised more closely, and bad programming in unrelenting social media attack and job threatening way. Saw them at a public event Sat. They came in for hugs. Chatty about upcoming events and plans. Sent an email this week saying good to see you. Good that the unpleasantness of the winter is past. What am I supposed to do with this?

    1. Reba*

      Is there any chance they have confused you with someone else…?

      Since it sounds like you don’t work together directly, I’d keep it at coolly polite. This is just one of those things!

    2. Reader on the Open Range*

      Also a librarian. I don’t have an answer to this, and this is more of a support response than anything. Friends groups are tough and they can sometimes be both arenas for people who genuinely love and support the library AND people who have an insatiable need for power. I’ve learned to pick my battles as these things are never easy to balance. I’m sorry you had to go through that, and while an apology from that person would have been much better, I hope this gesture from your Friends member is a sign that things can move forward.

    3. Blueberry Girl*

      Forgive, but don’t forget. This is a person who you may not be able to trust, but that doesn’t mean you can’t (and shouldn’t) be perfectly pleasant to them at all times.

    4. Public Facing Librarian*

      Update: Just spoke to a non-board member but a heavily involved friend of the library. They had a one-on-one conversation in the last month with angry influential ex-board member and pretty much read them the riot act over the ex-board member’s public actions and noted one- I was doing my job in an exemplary manner, two- he had no idea of what he was talking about, and three using social media to bully and gather support of other Friends of the Library (who had not attended the event series) to try to tank a worthwhile and groundbreaking program was unconscionable. Well then.
      I AM feeling much better. (and I will be seeing ex-board member at a public event tomorrow, will be present and pleasant and focus on my work)

  102. Bilateralrope*

    Does anyone here have any familiarity with putting shifts into the roster software Deputy ?

    Because I want to know what, if any, warnings my supervisor ignored. I was scheduled for a shift next week on a day that I was taking off as PTO. My day off was already loaded into Deputy.

    I was able to get this fixed by emailing the supervisor and pointing out the conflict. But I’d still like some insight into how this happened.

    1. MoopySwarpet*

      I don’t, but I wonder if there is someone who has listed their hours of availability/preference as X, but are actually ok with Y and your supervisor is used to hitting “override” whenever that kind of warning pops up and just did it without actually looking/thinking.

  103. Allypopx*

    I’m adjusting to a new medication, my ADHD is going crazy, I haven’t slept through the night in like a week, and work is super stressful right now.

    Just wanted to yell it somewhere. Carry on.

      1. Allypopx*

        My coworker and I have a tradition of ordering delivery on Fridays and really it’s the only thing keeping me going right now I’m so excited for my chicken curry and boba tea.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Haha, I feel that. Husband and I are planning on going out for fancy pizza tonight, and he keeps sending me pizza related GIFs, which is how I’m hanging on.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Yes, this week has been something else. 9 months of work stress continues (not a day goes by without some non-routine problem), and I finally got knocked down with a cold, but I still had to make a very long one day out-and-back trip Tuesday. Literally no breathing–>no sleep.

      My sister announced she is 8-wks pregnant on Tuesday, we finally bought a car for my youngest this morning, and my oldest son turns 22 tomorrow. Just feels like a lot happening ATM.

      Good luck to a strong Friday finish, everyone.

  104. Emi.*

    Feds! I am hoping for a CR, I guess, but as a union officer I’m (a) putting together info and resources to send out to workers in the event of another furlough and (b) getting information from management before they go into restricted shutdown-planning mode. What did you find useful during the last shutdown, or what did you wish you had? I’ve got

    (a) info on UI and public benefits, how to contact or hear from the union during the shutdown, a reminder that our associated FCU will probably be doing interest-free loans again
    (b) we want clarity on email access while in furlough status (whether you’re allowed to log in and what to do if you don’t have a compatible device), rules about outside employment, and guidance about freebies business offer to feds.

    What am I missing?

    1. Cog in the Machine*

      If a shutdown is imminent and 90% going to happen, make sure to be clear who is going to be on furlough if it isn’t going to be everyone. We had some confusion on that last year.
      Fingers crossed for that CR, though.

  105. Don't Touch Me*

    Hi everyone, I need some guidance on whether or not this is a real issue or if I am just sensitive. I work in a small firm as an assistant to my boss. I am my boss’ only direct report. I am one of a few assistants at the firm and we sit in a 4 desk cubical arrangement where we each have our own cube, but they are small. My problem is that my boss stands in my cube, all the time. He likes to talk a lot and every time he wants to chat, he will come and stand in my cube directly behind/next to me. My cube is so small that when he does this, I am essentially trapped and cannot exit my cube, and alternatively if I come back from the bathroom/kitchen and he is in my cube, I can’t get into it. He will read and edit documents while standing in my cube, and often edit documents over my shoulder, to the point where he will press up against me to put a document in front of me and edit it by hand. He will then often stand behind me and watch as I edit the document electronically.
    For context, I have been at this firm for almost a year and a half and have received glowing reviews from my boss, so I don’t think it is an issue of trust, (he actually told me he trusts me more than my predecessor in the position) I think he’s just more of a busy body and micromanager. But the touching and him being so physically close to me all the time makes me angry and uncomfortable. I am a late 20s woman and he is a mid 60s man and I do not believe he would do this if I were a man. I have never seen another supervisor in the firm stand in any of the other assistants cubes. I feel like if I tried to bring this up I would seem very dramatic, but it’s causing me so much anxiety that when I see him in my cube, I will often return to the bathroom for several minutes to wait for him to leave. Any suggestions?

    1. Bloom*

      I am the same way, I hate when people are super close to me in my cube. I have no issue with telling them they are too close and to back up. Next time it happens, I would just say can you give me some room, I’m feeling a little claustrophobic.

    2. Professional Pup*

      I know this is serious, but I had to chuckle a little bit at the absurdity of a 60 year old man just…standing in your cubicle. Sounds like something that would happen on The IT Crowd!

      Anyway, you don’t mention that you’ve said straight up, “When you’re standing in my cube, I have trouble maneuvering/working because it’s pretty cramped, and it’s hard to be productive. If you’d like to work face to face with me, could we meet in your office?” Or “I realize you like to work on edits to documents with me in real time, so is there a less cramped space we could do that in?”

      I do feel like it’s extra creepy/uncomfortable given the age and gender dynamics. You say you don’t want to seem dramatic if you bring it up, but I think you have a lot of control over that based on *how* you bring it up. Just being very matter-of-fact and calm about it is important. I always like to come at these types of awkward things with the attitude that my coworker/manager is a reasonable, rational person and simply hasn’t realized that they’re causing a problem (even if I know that’s not true – it just helps to frame it mentally so you don’t make it dramatic). Focus on the consequences for your work – how it impacts your productivity, etc – and not your mental state, and hopefully you will have some traction.

      2. Don't Touch Me*

        Thank you, this is amazing advice, and it does inhibit my productivity! Even though the situation makes me angry sometimes I have to laugh about it because it’s the dumbest thing. He has a huge office (and I mean huge, including a glass door and balcony) and he spends more time standing in my cubical.

    3. PeteyKat*

      You can “accidentally” spill a drink on him when he is standing so close to you. I did that once to someone who wouldn’t leave my personal space. The big gulp slipped from my hand and as i tried to grab it the lid came off and it splashed all over him. The creep kept his distance from then on.

  106. Raia*

    I get majorly thrown off when Boss asks a normal friendly sounding question like “Hows your new seat,” I respond with “Its different, I kinda wish Random Thing was different.” Then Boss takes that comment and makes it into 30x the completely manageable Thing than I communicated, and tells my teammates that I have this big problem, and makes them very confused about my sanity.

    So my question is how do I train myself to not respond with anything when these questions are asked, so Boss cant make my response a huge deal out of nothing and embarrass me to my teammates.
    Second question is how do I get Boss to care this much about things that really are important?

    1. fposte*

      On the first thing, it sounds like you’re treating this as chat when the boss is considering your response to be a request for action. So only give responses that you want the boss do to something about.

      On the second, you can’t control how much your boss cares. You may be able to slightly influence what your boss *does*. What do you want Boss to do that’s not happening, and how have you raised this before?

      1. Alianora*

        Seconding this point. When people ask you how you are, do you default to “fine, thanks” or something similarly bland? Train yourself to do the same when your boss asks you something like that, unless you actually want him to take action.

    2. LawBee*

      This is when “It’s fine!” is a good knee-jerk response. Unless Random Thing is something you really need him to act on, then just default to that.

      This will also help with your second question. The fewer things your boss thinks you need fixing, the more the important things will stand out.

    3. Raia*

      It was just weird in the moment to respond with something like “I’m fine” to that question at the end of a project review meeting.

      I want my boss to do many things, but I guess the biggest thing is committing to a plan and executing it. We outlined a huge overhaul of our project process a few weeks ago and Boss has already forgotten what he agreed to do and refuses to look at any plan not sent directly to his email.

      Does this count under “My boss sucks and is not going to change,” or have i just had a bad few weeks?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Maybe “I’m starting to feel settled in, thanks for asking” would be a useful neutral response.

  107. Bloom*

    Recently from when I was in my early 20s came back. I was interviewing with what was supposed to be one of the big firms in the industry. Well, I was not prepared at all. During the interview they asked me why I was looking to move on from my current position. And it happened, my mind went blank. I uttered, Oh I was looking to be closer to the mall. Yes, you read that right, I actually said I was looking to be closer to the mall. As the words left my mouth, I was horrified. But it was too late, they looked at me like oh ok. The interview ended pretty fast after that and no surprise that I didn’t get the job.
    I hope I am not the only one who has done this – so lets here your embarrassing interview flubs.

    2. Emi.*

      I got asked what kind of work environment I thought people needed to be effective, or something like that, and gave a long, rambling, drawn-out (too long even for a good answer, I think) response that boiled down to “I think people should have all the resources that they need.” D’oh.

    3. bibliovore*

      I was in the middle of an interview for a library position and as we stood by the stacks, glancing sideways, I pulled a book off the shelf and casually said oh- I would have weeded this one out for out-of-date scientific information. In From of the Collection Development Librarian! Yikes. They hired me anyway. Shame, shame, shame.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      I said something recently in an interview that tanked my chances. I was interviewing for a job doing a lateral type of work to what I normally do. I’m familiar with that type of work’s processes and don’t agree with some of the newly popular methods for generating information. I much prefer different, older methods for specific and well-documented reasons. I said as much, they were surprised since they use those (and only those) popular methods, and that was kind of the end.

      Oh, also one time I answered “Where do you want to be in 5 years” with “I’m hoping to be an astronaut.” I was absolutely sincere about it, and did actually apply to the astronaut program but was not selected. :-P

    5. Onyx*

      Sweet, naive 24 year old me gets asked the classic “where do you see yourself in 5 years?” question. I tell fancy VP of a major UK film studio that I would like her job. *face palm*

  108. Ihmmy*

    I hugged my bosses boss goodbye at a social event last night. I am mortified but, well, can’t change the past now, can just never do it again and never bring it up with her. And continue to feel embarrassed until the end of time.

    1. Lunchables*

      Maybe she didn’t mind one bit! The higher up you go, the lonelier it can be and the more insecure you can feel. Might have made her feel appreciated. Tell your embarrassment to take a hike.

    3. LALAs*

      I accidentally high fived my boss once. I got notice of a big win via snail mail and opened it in her office. I was like OMG, yes. She put her hand out. I slapped it – a la high five. She was putting her hand out so she could see the paper I was reading.

      This was probably 6 years ago and I probably think about it…monthly.

      1. valentine*

        I slapped it – a la high five. She was putting her hand out so she could see the paper I was reading.
        This is great.

      3. Mellow*

        “She put her hand out. I slapped it – a la high five. She was putting her hand out so she could see the paper I was reading.”

        —————————–

        *snort*

        Freaking awesome.

  109. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    We have an all-division onsite meeting later this month, taking 200 or so teapot designers/painters/etc completely out of production for two days (at the end of month and quarter). Recently the directors who decided this was a good plan pulled a bunch of lower level management together to ask us to brainstorm topics for said meeting. Like, this was y’all’s idea, and you don’t even know what you want to talk about?! Great plan.

  110. Jaid*

    My computer has been kicking me out and rebooting every three hours. I’ve had IT come over several times already, but it’s not fixed.

    Sigh.

    1. Nanc*

      You have displeased our Technology Overlords. Say 15 Hail Nanotechs and open a fresh pack of thumb drives (top brand–none of that generic stuff).

      We’ve all been there–in fact I was there on Tuesday . . . .

    2. tamarack and fireweed*

      Make sure your work is backed up and backups are up-to-date! This is in case IT will take away your computer next time and you need to access certain documents stored locally to do your job.

  111. Mary*

    Internal job interview for a promotion to line manager on Tuesday—advice please! I haven’t line managed before and it’s a move I really want to make. What would convince you that I’m ready?

  112. daisy*

    My coworker who sits at the cubicle next to me has started burning candles at her desk! The other day I mentioned that I’m really sensitive to smells and she blew out the scented one but said that the other one is just wax so she’s going to leave it for ambiance. Is it reasonable to feel like this is unsafe? Should I be asking the people who handle building safety? Or is this something I just have to suck it up about?

    1. DrTheLiz*

      ASK BUILDING SAFETY. They will FOR SURE have opinions about whether it’s okay, and if it’s not you might well get in trouble for not reporting it. This is the sort of thing that can invalidate building/contents insurance (“Why was there a fire?” “Well, one of our employees lit a candle and then left it around all this paper, you see…” “Yeah, that’s your fault, not paying.”) so definitely speak up.

    2. Jaid*

      Uh, LED candles are thing. She can get something batter operated with a remote control and even color changing.

      “Ambience…”

      *has a USB powered, color changing, remote controlled, LED light strip plugged into her laptop and stuffed into a $1 silver spatter Mason jar from the craft store. No smelly required.*

    3. Lyudie*

      Agree with DrTheLiz, check with facilities or your equivalent. This is definitely not allowed in my office. We’re not allowed to have anything with a heating element at our desks, much less an open flame!

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve got this image of an oversensitive smoke detector going off and evacuating the building…

    5. Username optional*

      Yup – talk to your building supervisor and have them handle it. They should shut that down immediately as a fire hazard. We had a coworker burn incense to ward off negativity who refused to believe it was a problem. Building services got involved and she was given a final warning – told if it happens again you will be fired. She now has a battery operated led candle instead.

  113. Professional Pup*

    I have a double cubicle all to myself, and the setup is oriented so that my back is to the door (yes, it’s a weird cubicle with a door). I sometimes put headphones in to watch training videos or just listen to music while I’m working on something, but I can’t hear people step into my cubicle, and because of the layout, I can’t see them, either!

    My thoughts have been:
    – reorient my desk setup, which would be okay but not ideal. I’m in a corner so I have more room than if I sat along the desk where my side would be to the door
    – get a little rearview mirror to place behind my computer so I can see people come in, but that feels weird

    Any other suggestions?

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        It doesn’t even have to be a formal mirror. I used to put up old software installation CDs and said it was just something that amused me — but really it was because I could see shapes coming into the room behind me. They were just reflective enough.
        You could probably find a framed piece of artwork that would do the same thing. (Hmmm…finally a use for those black-framed motivational posters of my nightmares.)

    2. Not Desperate for the Job*

      Someone at my job does number 2. They have one of those convex mirrors positioned above and to the left of their cubicle. At first I was like “…huh.” But then I realized how much sense it made and never said anything about it.

    3. Angwyshaunce*

      I like the mirror idea. If that feels strange, maybe some kind of reflective decoration that will yield the same result?

    4. Federal Middle Manager*

      If you don’t like an actual mirror, a real framed picture (with glass) will likely produce enough of a reflection for the movement to catch your eye.

    5. Notthemomma*

      +1000
      I got a cheap adjustable makeup mirror $5 so I can see the face, not just feet. I had one person ask about it. After explaining that I startle easily and would rather not scream when someone approaches from behind, they put up their own.

  114. So Very Anon*

    I really don’t mean to sound… elitist(???) with this question, but it’s something I can’t wrap my head around.

    I’m a young professional working in an administrative job. The job pays well, has great benefits and is in my desired field, but it’s always been clear to me that this is not my forever job; that is, eventually I want to move up within my field. I want to grow and expand. I want to take on new positions with more responsibilities. (And I want my salary to increase, too!)

    That said, a lot – I mean a LOT – of other administrative people I work with are much, much older than me and have been in their current positions for 10+ years. Many are in positions that are similar or lower level, at least on the pay scale. I just…don’t get it? I’m not judging them for their career paths, but I just can’t imagine myself doing the type of work I’m doing forever – I wouldn’t be satisfied. I never thought of myself as particularly ambitious, it’s just always been my assumption that I would move up in my career… and that generally that’s what people do. I’m cognizant that I grew up in an extremely privileged environment where the norm was that the older someone got, the more senior a role they had, so perhaps that’s affecting my perspective?

    I don’t know. I guess it just surprises me how much of an outlier I am. And confounds me. I’m sure I must be coming across as extremely judgmental/elitist/etc., and I don’t want to be! Which is why I think I’m looking for others to help me see from another perspective. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I’m in the same boat. From my perspective, it’s less about elitism and more about “how the hell do you support your entire family on the salary that’s barely enough for me as a DINK?!” But after getting to know a lot of them, their spouse is the breadwinner and they value having a flexible job that allows them to focus on their family, or they used to have a high powered stressful job and they’ve decided to take an easier job to focus on their mental health. I figure as long as someone is happy doing what they’re doing, I won’t question it.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        But after getting to know a lot of them, their spouse is the breadwinner and they value having a flexible job that allows them to focus on their family

        This was the case for most of the older administrative professionals I’ve encountered. A lot of them don’t have to work, but choose to for their own personal fulfillment. Personally, if my spouse made enough that I didn’t need to work, I’d stay home and write all day, but to each their own.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I did that…for 20 years. Then I got tired of housework and working from home (I worked as a remote transcriptionist but it didn’t pay all that well – essentially 7+ hours a day transcribing for around $700 a month). I have four kids and the youngest was at an age where she can pretty much take care of herself.

          I’m in a pretty fast paced, high speed, high stress EA position but I enjoy working, I enjoy contributing to the household. I make less than half my husband does, but the money doesn’t come amiss and I like being able to be part of the household income.

          The biggest adjustment has been me going from stay-at-home-mom and housewife who handled everything – and I do mean EVERYTHING – for the household to being gone 12 hours a day (and sometimes longer, for offsite work events). My husband is slowly learning to cook and to shop and we do a lot more shared responsibilities than we did when he worked outside the home and I did not.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        More than one long-time admin in my building lives locally…and one walks to work. That in itself is a perk.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      How well do you know these women?

      I’m in my early 40s, and in my part of the country the women my mother’s age didn’t commonly have professional careers, so that has always seemed normal to me, even though I have a professional engineering career. However, I have not been above being judgmental of others’ choices at various points in my life. I guess I will just say you don’t know their life, and I would just stay in your lane and realize that you may not end up where you think and that others end up where they end up for reasons that aren’t lack of ambition, education, or intellect. I have an admin friend here at work who is in her 50s. Her spouse is an engineer here, and their kids all are in college or beyond now. She’s been here 5+ years in an admin role. Guess what? She was a licensed architect, but didn’t work when her kids were younger and didn’t want to go back into that field. She would probably laugh at how you think you have it all figured out. I had no idea she was an architect until I got to know her personally.

      I had similarly judgey thoughts about the older woman who runs the group exercise program at my gym because she sends out a lot of irritating emails about bike reservations, etc. Turns out she has a comp sci degree and had a technical career for a long time.

      Who knows? I might be sick of all this in <10 years, and you might too.

      1. So Very Anon*

        Definitely true – we never really know what the future has in store for us!

        Just want to point out, though, that admin =/= women! There are many men here, too, and my thoughts apply equally to all genders.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          True! My office is about 1,000 people and we have 1 male admin, so I do tend to be gendered when I talk about the role.

    3. Professional Pup*

      Agreeing with Diamond above — it’s usually about priorities, so while I often fall into the same train of thought, I try to focus on what *my* priorities are for myself and not think about whether other people have the same ones. It’s really hard because we naturally want to compare ourselves to other people and then get caught up in it. Great job with acknowledging this and realizing where your own norms come into play!

      I think the culture of work has also changed a lot in the past 30-40 years, and I can’t fault people for structuring their careers around what cultural norms were at the time they entered the workplace. Nowadays there’s so much less emphasis placed on company loyalty – I would imagine due in part to the decrease in employer pension plans that reward you for many years at one company, and the growth of flexible retirement options that can follow you to 2 or 20 jobs if you so desire – and switching jobs is commonplace.

    4. Kathenus*

      Just look at it that everyone has their own perspectives and goals, and that they are choosing based on what works best for them and their life. There’s no right or wrong, no better or worse, path to take. My best friend has been adamant that she wants a job not a career because she wants to leave it at work and have her life separate without having a position that takes up her time or mental space outside of office hours. I’m exactly the opposite, and have chosen a career that does take up both time and mental energy, at times, off-shift – but to me being in this career makes that an acceptable compromise.

      As long as you don’t project any of your personal thoughts on this onto others’ choices, you are not judgmental or elitist. Live and let live, and respect everyone’s individual choices as equally valid for them as yours are for you.

    5. Aggretsuko*

      I literally can’t get any other jobs, is why I’ve stayed so long. I also do not under any circumstances want to manage people and that’s usually the way to get out of jobs.

    6. Bunny Girl*

      I’m an older student and I currently hold an administrative job while I go to school. While I don’t like my current job, it’s not because it’s administrative and I can honestly say I wouldn’t mind getting an administrative job in my field after I graduate. It’s mostly because I value work/life balance above all and with an administrative job, I can leave at five and no one bothers me, no one bothers me on the weekends, I don’t get panicked late night phone calls ever. And honestly I value that more than I like being challenged. I love my home life. I have an amazing partner and the most adorable animals you could ever meet, I love my house and I like doing projects around it. And honestly even though I’m going into a field I’m really passionate about, I’m more passionate about being around my friends and family and it’s just a paycheck in my view and that’s what it’ll always be. I might not make the most money, but I’ve found even at this job that I make enough to take care of what I need to, and I just don’t ever want to be stressed or bothered when I’m not at the office.

      1. So Very Anon*

        This makes total sense. I feel like it’s definitely true that the higher up you go on the career ladder, the harder it is to maintain a work/life balance. It’s something I’m struggling with myself, as I also value my current work/life balance but want to continue getting more responsibility.

        What baffles me is that some of the admins here work well beyond the company’s normal 9-5. I’ll get emails from them at 6:30am and 10:30pm!

        1. Bunny Girl*

          We have someone in our office that works part time, but she has her work email on her phone so if you email her during her off hours, she’ll still respond, no matter the time! I think a lot of people are like that. I personally don’t have my work email on my phone. If you want me to respond, it needs to be during a time I’m paid for! I also don’t check my email when I’m on vacation or during the holidays. If something is absolutely insanely urgent, my supervisor has my phone number and I’ve told her she’s welcome to call or text me in an emergency, but I also tell her that when I’m out of town (instead of just at home), that I probably will take a while to respond.

    7. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Here’s some advantages that come to my mind:

      – Maybe the job offered a better health insurance package for the family than their partner’s job did
      – Other benefits fit nicely with whatever the household has going on: sick days, personal days, gym memberships, public transit subsidy/pass, life insurance, etc.
      – Mo’ promotions, mo’ problems
      – Collegial environment with co-workers
      – General work-life balance things: reasonable hours, flexibility when something comes up with family, and a good boundary between their working hours M-F and their weekend

      Some people find it really priceless to know that their job obligations end when they leave their desk at the end of the day, especially Friday.

      1. Parenthetically*

        My thoughts were basically along these lines. All else being equal, it’s about priorities.

        I’d also add, unless you’re privy to people’s exact salaries, it’s entirely possible they’re making more than the payscale states. Lots of companies value experienced admins and are willing to pay to hang onto the incredible amount of institutional knowledge that often comes with those years of experience.

      2. Beatrice*

        I like your point about the work environment. Lots of people staying for a long time in the same position can mean that it’s just a really great place to work and people like each other. I once worked on the same team for almost 5 years, not because I didn’t have bigger aspirations, but just because I genuinely enjoyed my team so much it was hard to think of leaving. I didn’t leave until changes forced us apart, but that was the longest I’ve ever paused the same job in my career, and if I found that kind of camaraderie again, I’d stay longer.

    8. Roja*

      There are plenty of people who really enjoy admin work and are very good at it. There’s ways to “move up” and admin roles that pay a good chunk of money. It’s kind of like working in a restaurant in that way–some people use it as just a job for a time, but others are really good at it and do it as a career. Good admins are 100% necessary and it’s a solid path to choose, if it suits them.

    9. Toodie*

      There are also a lot of working women in my (rural) part of the country who are glad to have office jobs with benefits because their husbands are farmers or ranchers, and this helps them get their health insurance.

      2. Glomarization, Esq.*

        In the farming branch of my family, among one set of cousins, the wives all went into nursing. The shifts can be rough, but there’s always work and the money is steady.

        Years ago, I worked in an office where the husbands of many of the secretaries were in the trades: electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc.

    10. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      I’m willing to bet that those older admins are very, very respected (and very protected). Quiet as it’s kept, Admins really do run the place. Also, are you certain that they are on the lower end of the pay scale? At my oldjob, we had admins that were in the Millionaire’s club. There can be a lot of perks to being an admin and it is a profession where you can get a job practically anywhere an in a variety of industries.

    11. KR*

      There are higher level admin roles. I’m in one. I love it because I feel like my specialty is tying up loose ends and doing the stuff no one else wants to do. Also consider perhaps these people who have been in lower level admin roles forever may have volunteer work or a hobby that takes up much of their mental energy. They also could have spouses who support most household expenses and be perfectly fine staying in a low level role.

      It’s also partially, IMO, that admin work is devalued in our economy. It’s looked at as easy and low skill when a lot of it does require a lot of skill. Just not skills that people are willing to pay top dollar for, unfortunately. I’m lucky to work for a team that compensates me well but not everyone is.

    12. Slimer*

      My life hasn’t gone as I had planned. 20-year-old me would be devastated to know how the career path has gone. But personal choices early on shaped a direction, and then a double-dip recession tanked opportunity to grow, and now I just show up every day and wait to die.

    13. Username optional*

      Unless you’ve seen their paycheck I wouldn’t be so sure about them being on the low level of the payscale. Admins can make very good money.

      1. Kat in VA*

        In my area, admins can and do make close to (and over) six figures. It’s not always a low paying job, especially if you’re good at what you do.

    14. myug*

      Our division admin makes 250K – not proud to admit I looked this up (we work at a public university-affiliated hospital so all our salaries are online). She doesn’t have advanced degrees but she’s been with the hospital since the mid-80s. And if you want the real kicker, she makes 6K more than the doctor that is the head of the division.

      So I am not quite sure why you think admins can’t be paid a lot.

      1. So Very Anon*

        I do happen to have access to their salaries – it’s a situation similar to yours. At our company, there’s a cap to how much they can earn given their positions.

  115. Coworker won't smelling my lunch*

    Here is a nice low-stakes one for a Friday thread!

    My coworker tries to guess what I’m eating for lunch, based on smell, almost every day. I am not eating strong-smelling or offensive foods either. Think: soup, sandwiches, leftovers from home or takeout, etc.

    When I’m eating lunch, she will often come to my desk and ask “Whatcha got good today?” And stand there talking about it while I’m trying to eat.

    Sometimes she tries to guess and calls out over our shared cubicle wall “Whatcha got good today? Smells like potatoes!” (She often guesses “potatoes” for some reason?) I’ll say “leftovers from home” or “leftover spaghetti” which she will respond to with “Smells like potatoes!” and then sometimes try to explain *why* it smells like potatoes.

    This is awkward because she often asks when my mouth is full, so I have to chew, swallow, then answer. It also just feels like a weirdly invasive question and I have no idea how to answer it, particularly the explanations of incorrect guesses. I know in cubicle-farms we can all hear/smell things going on in other cubicles throughout the day. It feels like she is breaking that unspoken code of “pretend there’s privacy.” I’ve asked a coworker about their lunch before when it’s an unusually good smell, like Indian food or something. I’m not a robot. But every day gets annoying to the point that I dread bringing my lunch back to my desk (no break room).

    Thoughts? Am I being too sensitive? Is there a way I could nicely shut this down? I’ve tried not responding when it’s over the wall, but she will come over to ask if I do that. I’ve tried keeping it vague, from “leftovers” to “nothing.” She just repeats herself if I do that.

    How do I get someone to quit smelling my lunch?

    2. Professional Pup*

      I think this would be best addressed politely and directly to the coworker (i.e. go in her cube and talk to her in the morning, before lunch) – like, “Can I ask you about something real quick? I’ve noticed that you really like to talk with me about what I’m eating for lunch. I really appreciate that you’re interested, but I really like to have a break when I’m eating my lunch. I’d prefer not to make conversation while I’m eating, if that’s okay with you. I don’t want it to come across as rude when my mouth is full.”

      You can make this more / less polite depending on how forceful you think you need to be.

    3. Lunchable*

      Having lived in cubicle city for too long, the sad thing is that people in cubes are considered fair game no matter what they’re doing. My first thoughts are:

      Don’t Respond #1:

      When she either repeats herself or comes on over, say, “Oh, I was eating and didn’t want to talk with my mouth full. I’ll catch up with you after lunch! Hope you enjoy yours!” She will invariably say more things, but keep not responding. Also, “after lunch” can mean never.

      Don’t Respond #2:

      Headphone up and have a book or whatever it is you can do to make it even more clear that you are At Lunch so that when she comes over, you can still try ignoring until she gets totally blatant. Then do an “Oh goodness! I didn’t realize you were talking to me while I was at lunch!” politely startled response, then turn back to whatever you were doing and don’t engage further beyond a possible “I’ll catch up with you later! Enjoy your own lunch!” false joviality.

      Alternates:

      If you can at all, take your lunch and sit outside/in your car. Or in an empty cubicle far away.

      Hang an At Lunch sign up on your cube wall. The more savvy coworkers will understand; not sure this person will.

    4. Kathenus*

      I’m kind of snarky, so I’d probably just answer “Potatoes” every day. No matter what you have, just say “Potatoes”. But that’s just me :)

    5. softcastle*

      HA, I used to have a coworker at my old office do this every day too. She usually did it because 1) she loved food in general 2) she was actually hungry herself and 3) she wanted to be nice and make conversation. It was fine sometimes, but REALY irritating other times, so what I did once was just kind of kindly call attention to it. I said, “Wow, coworker, you must really be a foodie! You guess my lunch every day and you almost always get it right!” Turns out she didn’t even really realize she was doing it. We then chatted a little bit about our favorite foods, recipes, and restaurants, but it became a little less frequent after that. I just kind of put up with it but yeah, it’s…weird. She would even try to guess ingredients/spices. “You put a little cajun spice in there? What did you cook the spinach in?” etc.

    6. Reba*

      People are so weird!

      I mean, her questioning and potato-calling are inane… but I also feel you might taking it a little too hard, probably because it is happening all the time. It is super annoying, but not invasive or inherently inappropriate.

      I think Professional Pup’s script is great!

      1. Coworker won't STOP smelling my lunch*

        Haha It had *just* happened when I wrote this too!

        I don’t think I’m taking it “hard” in the sense that I’m carrying it home with me or something. I do think the every-day aspect is what makes it seem especially nosey (and yes, she is nosey in other ways too so I probably do project a bit onto the lunch-sniffing!!)

        1. Reba*

          Definitely worth pushing back on — I don’t mean to diminish the impact! And it sounds like if this gentle pushback caused her to pull away from you a little bit in other ways, that might also be fine…

    7. E*

      Ask her “why are you asking me every day about my lunch?”. See what she says, maybe she doesn’t understand that she’s coming across as intrusive. Once a week, I could see it being reasonable to make conversation about someone’s lunch. But the same coworker’s lunch every day…needs to be pointed out to her that this is odd.

    8. BRR*

      I think you could say something like you like quiet during lunch time so you can recharge. That seems like a polite solution. You could also maybe just ignore her and if she keeps asking you could say you were zoned out while eating.

    9. Mellow*

      You put on a gigantic pair of “Fuck off, I’m busy” headphones and let her yell “Smells like potatoes!” all she wants.

      That’s what you do.

  116. Beatrice*

    Does anyone have any tricks for staying attentive in group conference calls? I don’t have a problem paying attention in regular face to face meetings, but somehow on the phone, if I’m just listening, I have a tendency to tune in and out and miss things. I used to avoid conference calls for meetings that wouldn’t require much participation, but that’s becoming less possible for me and I’m struggling.

    1. MicroManagered*

      Do you do other work during conference calls? When I realize I’m not paying attention, a lot of times it’s because an email has popped up or an instant message etc. I try to minimize those distractions and ONLY do the call.

      If it’s over some kind of software like Skype or Zoom, I try to pay close attention to who exactly is speaking.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Notes, for sure. You could even start with a piece of paper that has the name of each group/participant on it and then jot down a few key things they say. Even if I never look at notes again I’m one of those people who finds them incredibly helpful for maintaining attentiveness.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Notes if I need to remember what was discussed or take down action items.

      Solitaire on my phone if I don’t need to be watching a presentation or writing notes.

      Avoid the temptation to read emails or have a side conversation – anything requiring verbal skills like reading or talking will interfere with your ability to listen. Same thing with writing, but the tradeoff is worth it to jot down a few notes of what you need to remember.

    5. Mockingjay*

      I read AAM.

      But seriously, if the meeting has an agenda, I look it over prior to the call. I flag areas that concern me so I am sure to pay attention at those points. The rest of the time, I half listen and multitask – clean out emails, straighten up desk. Most of our teleconferences are short (less than an hour), so it’s easier to stay focused. (For routine meetings, once you’ve briefed your department, you can drop off the call. That has shortened meeting times considerably and eliminated daydreaming. No more pretending “sorry, I was on mute” or “could you repeat that, line has static” – ha!)

    6. techRando*

      For me I tend to either write my own notes (99% of the time I never look at them again), or do something visual and/or with my hands which is non-verbal. So I might doodle or play with a fidget toy or wipe off my desk.

      The thing that’s happening (I think) is that when you are in a physical meeting, there’s a whole room of stimulation happening. You can watch the person speaking, you can look for visual social cues from them or other people, you are signaling your own social cues (even if you aren’t consciously thinking about it, a lot of people emote more when they’re around other people), etc etc. It’s a lot to do, so it can more easily keep your whole attention.

      But on conference calls, especially ones where you’re mostly listening to other people, there’s only audio stimulation. You need to give yourself another type of stimulation which doesn’t compete with the audio. Taking notes integrates with it, so it doesn’t compete, and non-verbal stuff doesn’t take up the same part of your brain so it doesn’t compete.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I stand up and move around. I used to pace on a landline, and now that we’re on Skype with WiFi, I have been known to walk around. At least when WFH. Just learn the building’s WiFi dead zone’s first!

  117. QueenoftheCats*

    Here’s a story I thought people here might enjoy:

    One of my favorite questions to ask during an interview is “What are some of the challenges you’ve faced while working at this org?” (For clarification, I’m the one being interviewed)

    I asked this question for an admin assistant position. The position itself required teamwork and collaboration, because I would be working with other admin assistants to organize events and the jobs probably would have overlapped at some points. So, I asked my question, and this was the response (not verbatim):

    “I guess a challenge would be that we’re *too* good at our jobs. For example, when we’re organizing events we sometimes check-in multiple times with catering before an event and we don’t necessarily tell each other that we already did it. So, catering probably thinks that we’re over checking-in.”

    1. fposte*

      Huh. That’d be an interesting response to “What’s your weakness?”, too. But how kind of the person to illuminate the culture so clearly for you.

      1. QueenoftheCats*

        Interviewer: What’s your weakness?
        Me: No, what’s YOUR weakness??!?

        Joking aside, I usually pair the question with “What’s your favorite part about working here?”

        I started asking this question after starting an amazing internship with a fantastic and small nonprofit. I loved working there, but one issue that always came up was money and making sure there was enough for the next year. So, this got me thinking about how all places have challenges and how I could go into a job with eyes wide open.

        But apparently it’s also a BS detector. (Like, you’re so good at your job that you don’t delegate jobs and responsibilities amongst the admins or send out a short email, saying “Hey, just checked in with catering. Confirmed dates, time, and guests”)

    3. Psyche*

      This would translate to me as “We have poor communication and tend to unnecessarily do the same task multiple times because we don’t know whether or not it was done yet.”

    4. Parenthetically*

      Hahahaha, were you in fact interviewing Tahani Al-Jamil? “I would say I outdid myself, but I’m always this good. So I simply did myself.”

  118. Meeting Fatigue*

    Part-rant, part what-do-I-do. My new company loves its meetings. Hour-longs, half-days, meetings about meetings, you name it. Even more recently, a decision was made to “hold” one day a week for all meetings instead of having them all through the week…except it was simultaneously acknowledged that some meetings will still be on other days because we have some part-remote and part-time workers. And sometimes the remote people need to be in because the meeting _says_ it requires physical presence, etc.

    One thing in common with all these meetings is it means there is far less time to actually get anything done.

    I had not gotten this sense during hiring, nor was it disclosed; my site visit showed me people popping up from their cubes and talking, so it seemed like there was a lot of ad hoc communication and discussion that kept things moving. Oops!

    I like the people, general culture, and finally being paid what I’m worth. It’s not an option for me to move on at this present time, so I’m trying to find ways to shift this culture from Let’s Have a Meeting to Let’s Really Open Up Our Communication. I am slowly introducing open collaboration platforms and trying to guide people to have quick discussions versus booking recurring meetings–but it’s uphill work and I will need to secure leadership buy-in, which I don’t have yet. (Leadership is suspicious of cloud-based tech.)

    Part of me thinks that if they want to pay me to sit in meetings instead of doing what I was hired to do, fine, but most of me really thinks we could change. It’s just exhausting either way.

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      Try change on a small level. Can you maybe try to use email for things that people might usually make part of a meeting?

      1. Meeting Fatigue*

        Ah, here’s a funny thing that I didn’t put in. They use reply-all emails constantly as well. They like them.

        It’s really quite a different world here than what I’ve been used to.

  119. Frustrated Co-Worker*

    I work in a small office of four people (usually five). We’re all technically even, but I am senior and run the office/staff meetings, etc. and we have one co-worker, Kendall, who is relatively new, about a year into the job. Our department director was fired in February and hasn’t been replaced, so we don’t really have a manager, other than an owner that really can’t be bothered unless there is an emergency.

    This is okay because we’re all autonomous and self-directed. While we all work together to make sure we’re being self-motivated and accountable, we also have a culture that if something comes up that doesn’t fit our specific roles, whoever sees the problem/need addresses and goes to others to jump in. (Our director was fired because he didn’t add any value to our department- even with him, I was running the office and coordinating staff). The one exception is Kendall.

    She doesn’t take any initiative. Instead of finding work (there is plenty and the other three of us work between 45 and 60 hours a week), she either sits on her phone or goes home early. One of my coworkers and I now meet with her weekly to assign work, answer any questions, etc. (which we don’t have a ton of time for).

    She is easily the least-busy. However. when we watch her see a problem she walks away from it. She answers the phone and is the person generally in the office to deal with walk-ins, etc. Some of this is relatively small, like directing the delivery person to be instead of signing for a package, not sorting the mail, etc. Some of it is bigger- she pulled me out of a meeting the other day because there was a large delivery and ‘she’s not that strong anyway so figured I could deal with it’. I’m not much stronger and have a back injury that prevents me from lifting. I reminded her of that and she said, “I just didn’t want to deal with it”.

    Additionally, she doesn’t take ownership of the work we assign her. For example, when we ask her to make Y happen, we recommend she to do something like call X person to see if they can do Y. She calls X, but if they don’t answer she leaves it. Two weeks later when we check-in on Y she looks confused, looks down at her notes, and says, oh yeah, X never called back. This happens over and over again and none of us have time to check back in with her to make sure things are done. Sometimes X does a poor job, but instead of making sure the job is done, she tells them to send the finished product directly to us and we end up having to go back and forth with them. These are just a few examples.

    She is not technically be doing anything that would get her on a performance review (if we had a manager) and it certainly hasn’t reached the level of talking to the owner. She just doesn’t match the rest of us with our initiative or problem-solving or team-player attitude.

    We are beyond frustrated, but given our capacity constraints, have just begun doing a lot of the work without her, but that seems unfair. Thoughts or ideas? We give her feedback on projects, but are unsure how to say, ‘start being a better co-worker’.

    1. fposte*

      IMHO, you don’t have enough leverage to achieve change here, and I disagree with you about its not rising to a level that would lead you to talk to the owner. You’re doing her work! She’s openly trying to make other people do stuff because she doesn’t want to deal with it!

      This would absolutely be a very big thing on a performance review, and I would bring it to the owner.

      1. Frustrated Co-Worker*

        Most of the work she isn’t doing is work that falls in the cracks (that a director should do), but she never takes on any of those tasks without us hand-holding her. It IS possible that the three of us have unreasonably high expectations, but if it’s everyone but her, it doesn’t seem fair to stick us with it. We made it very clear when hiring her that this is a fast-paced work environment where self-motivation, initiative, and flexibility is critical. We also sat down after the director was fired and told her it would be a all-hands-on-deck period until he’s replaced.

        1. fposte*

          Right. And all of this says talk to the owner. You talked to her, it didn’t do anything, she’s still waaay underperforming. And I’m hearing nothing about a director arriving any time soon.

          Now realistically an owner who doesn’t like to get involved and hasn’t been bothered to hire a director for months may do nothing, or he may just say “Kendall, pull up your socks” and never follow up. So think about that, and think about if you actually want to propose that she be replaced and whether you and your colleagues could do the hiring process on your own.

      2. Hex Code*

        I agree. This is one of those things that might feel like “tattling” but really isn’t. These are really clear examples of her not doing her job!

        Even if the owner doesn’t want to do anything, if you have been there a while and have a good relationship with them, you can just say, “I’ve noticed that Kendall has trouble following through on the tasks that we all pitch in on, so I’m going to be a bit more proactive from now on when asking for her help. Let me know if you see any problems with this or would prefer to address anything yourself.” My script is a bit clumsy but you get the picture.

        Also, can you and your colleagues be blunter in your responses to her? Honestly, if somebody said they were pulling me out of a meeting because they just didn’t feel like doing something, I would have a hard time responding to that productively! She doesn’t sound like she’s adding a lot of value to the office at the moment, so what’s the worst that she can do? Quit?

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Exactly. You guys are paying her to do nothing. Report her and do everything in your power to GHTFO.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I agree with the others that this is definitely something to feed back up the chain. You’re missing the obvious level of management that should address this, so you have to go up a level. Since you’re the senior person and the owner doesn’t like handling these things, can you ask the owner for more authority to manage Kendall in this situation? To have your back if you sit Kendall down and say “Here are the expectations of this role: you will do work as assigned until it is complete. You will not walk away from problems and leave them for other people. You will not walk out early when you haven’t finished your tasks. And you will not decide you just don’t want to deal with this or that component of the job. Can you do this, or do we need to talk about transitioning you out?” Clearly your work will get rid of people not adding value and that seems to be the case here.

      Either way, it kind of sounds like you’re all thinking of her as not helping you out as much as she could, vs. not doing her job sufficiently well. The second is the correct way of thinking about this. She’s doing a terrible job and getting away with it because she knows you all will pick up the slack. “Kendall, that’s your job, please get to it.”

  120. Alianora*

    The front desk people at work all have stiff, formal email manners. I think they’re being instructed to always say thank you in the first sentence of an email regardless of what the other person said, to repeat the wording the other person used verbatim, and never to use contractions. It wouldn’t weird me out so much, but they’re all friendly, normal people when you talk to them in person.

    (This is incredibly minor, I know – it doesn’t affect my work and I’m not going to do anything. Just wanted to talk about it.)

    2. CM*

      Yeah, it’s weird. A lot of people sound more stilted in writing than they do in person, and some people are consciously or unconsciously doing an impression of what they think someone “professional” would sound like.

      There’s also another thing I’ve observed where people differ in terms of how much emphasis they put on the verbal/linguistic meaning of words, and on word choice in general. I tend to focus on that a lot, so I find it really off-putting when someone says something that’s not quite right (like saying thank you at an inappropriate moment) because that communicates to me that they’re being insincere or not thinking about what they say. But there are other people who place more emphasis on the ritual of saying words than they do on the literal meaning of the words. So, those people would be perfectly happy with an awkward thank you, because what they’re looking for is the emotional meaning of someone hitting a certain beat in the conversation, and not the actual words that person said.

      1. Alianora*

        That’s a good point about how different people value word choice. At first, I thought maybe just the one guy I was emailing most often happened to be one of those people – but then I happened to email a couple of the others who also work the front desk, and they all use exactly the same formula, same tone, everything. So now I suspect this is coming from their manager. Either that, or they have some very odd screening practices for hiring.

    3. juliebulie*

      I am really turned off by email replies that repeat the words that I said. That doesn’t tell me anything. I would like to see them paraphrase my request – accurately.

      Or better yet, just answer my question.

      1. Alianora*

        Yes exactly, thank you for articulating that! I’ve definitely worked with people who use others’ exact phrasing to mask that they don’t know what they’re talking about. Not everyone who does that, but enough that I lose a little confidence when I see it happen.

        Beyond that, it just feels odd, like I’m feeding input into an algorithm instead of talking to a person.

  121. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    I’ve been at my current organization for about 2.5 years. I was working as an admin in a department that was supposed to have four admin staff, and for most of that time, two of the admin positions were vacant, one had to go part-time due to medical issues, and my manager’s position was also vacant. I already had ADHD, BPD, and PTSD going into the job, and started having frequent panic attacks due to stress that I got medication and FMLA for. Because this position was so stressful even after the vacancies were filled (because I still had to train everyone and had become the point person for everything), when a more creative and senior administrative position opened up in another department, I jumped on it and was selected. For the first month, it was amazing, I was so happy at my job, and wasn’t using my FMLA anymore. Part of the deal when I accepted the position was that I would be a back up for the two receptionists if they were sick or on vacation, which I assumed would be occasional since I almost never saw my predecessor down there. A month in, one of the receptionists gave notice, and my supervisor, Jane, made me cover reception for two months until she hired a new person, who thankfully just started. I thought I was vocal about how unhappy I was, and Jane said she understood but she had no choice since no one else could cover (this new department also has a vacant admin position that would normally cover before I would). Yesterday, I ended up having a meltdown in front of my supervisor, getting emotional about how burned out I was about my entire organization, how I’ve had to double my dose of antidepressants just to function, how my panic attacks were coming back, and how I didn’t see a future for me here and was planning to quit as soon as I could find another job (we have a union so we can’t get fired just for saying we want to quit). She responded by clearing her calendar, clearing our manager’s calendar, and they both sat me down and let me know how sorry they were that this has been my experience. They reiterated that my work was phenomenal and that they wanted to do whatever it took to keep me happy and fulfilled, though they would of course understand if I put my health first. Once I felt listened to, I felt SO much better. I still have to cover reception for another week because the existing receptionist planned a vacation before the other one quit, but after that I’m off the hook for a long time and they promised I would never have to cover for more than a week at a time again.

    Sharing because if I hadn’t melted down I probably would’ve just quit, they would’ve had no idea why, and it would’ve been the same issue for anyone in my position. But now that I’ve communicated, I’m improving the system, and management is going to meet to collectively discuss how to improve the experience of all support staff here.

  122. Livki*

    I have a resume question. I got a bachelor’s degree from a well respected college in my home country that operates differently and you get a ‘general degree’ sort of like a high school diploma but at a higher level (so no declared major). It’s well known where I’m from so it’s never been a problem just to put ‘BA from Teapot University’ on my resume. But how do I describe that since moving to the states? Nobody has heard of the college here, and I worry hiring managers would just think I forgot to put my major on there. How do other people get around having foreign qualifications?

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      You can possibly put “General Studies”. Did you have a specific area of concentration? If so, you can put “General Studies with a concentration in Teapot design”. A “General Studies” degree is something that many (if not all) universities have.

      I am assuming that it was 4 years (or more) of school.

    2. Blueberry Girl*

      Also, not everyone includes their major. So I wouldn’t worry about it. General Studies or Liberal Arts are both programs offered as US Universities. Though they do have a sort of negative association in some fields, so I would be careful maybe. However, I also think you can just put down the Degree with a note explaining like- Equivalent of a (BA if you were in the liberal arts or a BS if you were in the sciences) in the United States. If people have questions, they will ask.

  123. Pam Beesly*

    I work for a company that has many branches across the nation. I work in City A, but I also am responsible for entering contracts in City B. All contracts from our vendors come over via email to CityBContractTeam@CompanyName.com. I am one of a few people under this group email. Another person who is under this email group is the Operations Manager, Linda, at City B. Linda started with the company 6 months ago.

    Here’s the thing – Linda forwards me EVERY. SINGLE. CONTRACT. that comes over via email to my personal email, even though I’m already receiving the contracts since I’m part of the CityBContractTeam@CompanyName.com email group. I have (not exaggerating, I just checked my sent box), emailed her ELEVEN times over the past 6 months, a quick “hey, Linda, just a reminder that I already receive all of the contracts since I’m part of the CityBContractTeam@CompanyName.com email group where contracts are sent to.” Nonetheless, I still come into the office every day to several contracts forwarded along to me. I don’t get what Linda doesn’t understand. She usually responds to my email reminders with an “oh okay, thanks!” I don’t know what else to do. It’s irritating having to unclog my inbox of all of the duplicate contract I have due to her unnecessary forwarding.

    If I worked in the same office as her rather than hundreds of miles away, I would just pop by her desk and bring up the constant forwarding in person. I suppose I could call her about it, but that seems a bit aggressive.

    (FWIW, there are several other things that Linda has done/said that make me wonder how in the world she got the job that she did. I’m all about giving people the benefit of the doubt, but there are so many things that have made me question her competence.)

    1. babblemouth*

      Does she forward them only to you, or to every person on this email address? Have you asked her why she forwards them? (i.e. instead of saying “I receive this already”, have you asked “why did you forward this to me?”)

      1. Pam Beesly*

        She only forwards them to me. I haven’t phrased it as “why did you forward this to me?” (I have a fear of sounding overly brusque at work sometimes).

        I always phrase it as “hey, just a reminder, I have already received this (and receive all contracts), since they are sent to CityBContractTeam@CompanyName.com, which I am a part of. No need to forward any contracts along in the future!”

        1. babblemouth*

          I think you need to ask her why she does this. Is she afraid you’re going to miss a contract? Did a coworker somehow make her think that you wanted this? Is she covering her ass? Whatever it is, make her articulate the reason, and you can fix the situation from there on.

    2. LALAs*

      I think you can be even clearer.

      Hi Linda.
      How’s it going in CityB? Can I ask for your help with something? Please stop forwarding me the contracts that come into CityBContractTeam@CompanyName.com. I already received them and it creates more work to sort through the duplicates. Thanks!

      -Pam

      1. valentine*

        LALAs script is good. You may want to specify that you are part of the email group.

        You haven’t told her you want her to stop or that it’s in any way negative, so she may experience your response as an FYI. Calling would be fine.

    3. Rick Tq*

      Linda may have an rule set up to automatically forward these messages and hasn’t bothered to change it.
      – Are the time stamps on her receipt and the fowarded message close?
      – Does the message to you come with no text or the same boilerplate each time?
      – Do they come when Linda isn’t in the office?

      You might set up your own rule that messages from Linda with that Distribution list in the text body to a new folder.

  124. Angelinha*

    I have a bad title and I’m starting to worry it’s hurting me on my resume. I used to be a manager at a nonprofit and now I’m in state government as a coordinator. Our job titles are known internally for being inaccurate but obviously that doesn’t translate externally. The coordinator role here has way more responsibility than my old manager role and pays 45% more, so I don’t regret taking the job, but now that I’m ready to move on to a nonprofit leadership role I worry the “coordinator” is holding me back. Any recommendations?

    1. Angelinha*

      And I should add that unfortunately, a title change isn’t in the cards because it’s set by our union and several levels of bureaucracy.

    2. Blueberry Girl*

      I think job titles are just super random and people know that. You have a list of duties and accomplishments on your resume, so I would assume you’re fine as far as people recognizing the role. If you are struggling with that, put the important leadership parts of the role at the top of the list and highlight them in your cover letter, maybe?

    3. Kathenus*

      On your resume, maybe put your official title, then in parenthesis next to it what that equivalent would be in your industry – this is something Alison’s suggested in the past.

      Start date to present – XX Coordinator (Manager of XX)

      1. Reba*

        I might actually reverse the order! That is, put what you actually are first, followed by the info that would match what your company would verify in a reference.

        I used to work in one of those places where the title were all cryptic, like “Services assessment coordinator III” so plain English helps.

        I do think that titles are important, but showing the responsibilities and growth between positions will be even more meaningful.

        Good luck!

  125. Nancy*

    Do you guys know of a blog that AAM wrote or a resource about interview questions for higher level positions? I’ve applied for a VP with my organization and I just want to be prepared if I get selected to interview. I’m assuming that their might be “higher level” questions that are asked for these positions.

    Also, it unusual situation and I’d like to ask advice. I’m a 4 person team. Two positions are open. My VP just left two weeks ago, but we knew he was leaving 4 weeks before. We have an entry level position open under me that hopefully will be filled soon. The unusual part is that with only two of us currently in the department (I believe my coworker applied for the VP position too), if they give us the opportunity to interview, how does that effect interviewing outside candidates? Should I excuse myself from all interviews because of the conflict of interest or should I wait and let HR tell me how they want to deal with the situation? Anyone have experience with this kind of thing?

  126. Not Desperate for the Job*

    For those of you who were interested….

    Had a couple long chats with the second in command of the department, my would-be boss, and her other direct report. I asked lots of questions about management style, company culture, opportunities to do other work, flexing time for medical appointments, professional development opportunities and encouragement, etc. I explained that I was really disappointed not to be alerted to the massive disparity in what I asked for and what they were willing to pay. Also that I had an issue with losing 5 vacation days. Eventually they came back to me and said the absolute top max they could do was +10K, still with 20% bonus, plus 5 vacation days. The boss assured me several times that the only times she doesn’t see someone get 85% of their bonus (works out to be a 17% bonus) is when they’re on a PIP. That 17% would put me at the number I first asked for when I started the process, which is a pretty penny above what I’m making now.

    Could she be shitting with me? Sure. But I think I’m willing to give it a shot though. In part because I want to leave here soon, in part because it gets me an arm and a leg into an industry I’ve been trying for a long time, and in part because losing $200 a paycheck is something that I can actually live with and be OK (now that the wedding is over….lol). The chance to work for a company that encourages networking and professional development and allows the time out of the office to do that is huge too. AND, I could start taking language classes again just a few blocks from the office.

    So overall I decided this was the move to make for now. I start October 14.

    The day after I verbally accepted the job, my current employer got an adverse decision in a really massive, destructive lawsuit. So….it’s probably for the better.

    1. bonus with salary*

      Congratulations. I had a very similar negotiation and it did turn out that the bonus met my number for salary and continued to do so for the five years I had the position. Its hard not to have it as salary but it did work out for the best.

  127. bw*

    So due to some personal issues I’m very likely going to have to move back to my hometown, which is far enough away from my workplace that commuting daily would be a life-eating nightmare. My workplace has in the past allowed employees who live in other cities to telecommute, and as I would like to not quit my job, I figure it’s probably worth asking if this accommodation could be made available for me, at least temporarily or for part of the week. I’ve been with the company for almost three years and have always had good performance reviews, but I’m still super nervous about asking — any advice about how to approach this with my boss? Any advice about NOT approaching this with my boss? I feel like it’s a reasonable ask but if I’m wrong I’d like to hear that, too.

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      I think it’s a perfectly reasonable thing to ask, as long as you have a back up plan if the answer is No. Would you be willing to quit over this? I think having that straight in your head helps when approaching asks like this. I would think about your job duties carefully- are there things you could do outside the office? Or do you need access to paper documents, for example, that you can’t get online. What would that look like? So, I would think through those things as you decide what you want your future to look like with the company.

      1. bw*

        This is helpful, thank you.

        (I can do about 90% of my job from anywhere with internet, if not more, so that’s not a concern for me; willingness to quit is more complicated, but I have the weekend to mull it over at least.)

      2. Person from the Resume*

        Since you mention a commute is possible albeit a life eating nightmare, how many days, if any, would you be willing to come into the office to keep the job? Or could you agree for certain meetings and special events.

  128. softcastle*

    I’ve been at my new position in the same company for several months now, and I’m absolutely in love with it. It’s everything I wanted to be doing, and I’m enjoying the new responsibilities as well as my new manager, who has a style and personality I really work well with. Since I was in a similar area before I transferred, the transition has been fairly smooth and I’ve been able to jump right in a bit quicker and more independently than someone who might not be as familiar with our business.

    As of several weeks, I have a new hire in the cubicle next to me for whom this is also a somewhat internal switch. This is her first job out of college (and her first corporate job), and I can tell she’s really nervous. She constantly talks about how everything is “so fast-paced,” and that there’s “too much information,” and I can tell she’s very fearful that she’s going to be bad at it or make the wrong call. Our positions are different but they both require an ability to sort of make personal calls without being handheld, and she agonizes over these moments and asks multiple people for their (grudging) opinion before just “going for it.” I constantly reassure her, but she still seems to need more feedback and direction. Any advice on assuaging her fears? I can tell that while this isn’t a problem now, the hesitation and attitude would absolutely become a problem if it is a pattern in the future…but I’m not really the person who should be giving her this feedback.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The good news is that it’s a new-ness thing for a lot of people, so this hopefully should wear off for her after she feels more secure in her decisions. Right out of the gate after an internal switch, that makes sense to be agonizing over things a bit more than is usual, especially in a first job out of school and in a corporate atmosphere.

      I’d continue to reassure her as you are doing but if it keeps going, after awhile you need to cut the kid-gloves with her and just let her stew and struggle through it, since it’s much deeper than any peer is going to be able to help her with at that point. So just stay kind and encouraging and let her find her groove, she hopefully find sit soon.

      If it does get into an issue that management needs to discuss with her, yeah that’s out of your hands completely and all you can do is be a shoulder to lean on, if you are inclined to be that shoulder which it sounds like you are. It hurts to watch people we like struggle like this, it’s kind of you to care but it’s okay to remind yourself there’s only so much you can do and you’re not obligated to do anything except be professional with her in the end.

  129. Blueberry Girl*

    So, I had my first meeting with one of my direct reports yesterday Fergus,- a Historical Teapot Clerk. I am a new manager in a position that has been open for along time. My goal was to get some idea of what would help Fergus be happier at his job and hopefully take some things off his plate that had been put there, due to the long absence of a Teapot Curator some duties to be able to work more on the Spout Mold Project that was part of his duties prior to the loss of the Teapot Historian.

    Instead, Fergus expressed to me that he had no goals. He did not want to give up any of his duties, because he “had gotten used to them” and didn’t really have any aspirations, except for a pay increase (which I do not have the authority to offer.) When I asked if Fergus would take a promotion with a pay increase (which I had been told might be an option next year) Fergus informed me that he didn’t want a promotion, even for more money. However due to the HR rules at our State Run Teapot Facility, I can’t really give him more money without also giving him a promotion, as he is at the top of his Grade. And I can’t increase Grades without a promotion. I mentioned this limitation and Fergus insisted that it “used to happen all the time and why couldn’t it be done?” Except Used to Happen All the Time, I think was like a decade ago before the State changed the HR rules.

    Fergus seems to be perfectly competent at his job and everyone says he’s pleasant to work with and gets things done. So far I have found that all to be true. However, I have no idea how to manage someone who simultaneously insists they have too much work and refuses to give any of it up. Thoughts on how to best work with Fergus?

    2. LALAs*

      You are his manager, so he doesn’t get to ‘refuse” to give up work. After you see how things shake out in your department (not sure how long you have been there), you should meet with him again and say that while you understand that he got used to X and Y, they will no longer be his responsibility. Then lay out your plan for transitioning X and Y to whoever is taking them over. This is easier if it is you so that you can be clear about what you need from him to take on X and Y as your own.

      In terms of the promotion – he doesn’t want it so that is easy enough. If he is happy in his role and is doing it well, great. If he wants a raise then when he asks for it you can say that however it happened in the past, he is at the top of the salary range for Historical Teapot Clerk so in order to get a raise, he would have to move into Sr. Historical Teapot Clerk. It isn’t your decision to make and while you can go to bat for him around money and the promotion (if he decides he wants it) you don’t get to make payroll decision. That is how it is when you work for the state. Good luck!

      1. Blueberry Girl*

        I haven’t been here long. I think I was just… surprised at his response when I asked about duties, because he’d expressed to be explicitly that he wanted more time to work on his Spout Project and that was what he was originally hired to do. So, over time, he’s also had to take over Handles and Lids, but really he said “his heart” was in Spouts. When I brought up transferring Handles or Lids, he seemed very opposed to the idea.

        1. valentine*

          When I brought up transferring Handles or Lids, he seemed very opposed to the idea.
          Ask him what solutions he imagines are possible or what he would need (apart from more money) in order to have more spout time without a reduction of tasks.

    3. The curator (not of teapots)*

      For the too much to do complaint. Time for a time study. Have Fergus log his tasks and deliverables on a calendar or spreadsheet for two weeks to get an idea if his workload is unreasonable.

      Select the tasks you want to take from him. As the manager, I’m not only permitted to do that, it’s my job.

      When he asks for more money, note that it is not possible do to salary bands and that he would need to have a promotion for an increase.

      Document his work as “what everyone says” might not be true.

      1. Blueberry Girl*

        The strange thing is, he hasn’t complained about too much to do. He has complained about being underpaid for all he is doing (and I think he is), but he hasn’t ever complained about the workload. When he was hired, he was hired to be in charge of Spouts and over times he’s taken over Handles and Lids. When I asked him what he was hoping to see as changes in the department now that there was a Curator of Teapots, he said he wanted more time to work on his original Spouts. So, I think I was surprised when he said he didn’t want to give up Handles and Lids.

        1. The Vent-a-lator*

          If he has too much, how does his responsibilities compare to the official job description? That might help in deciding what to take away and give to someone else. (Either something that fits in a lower or higher job grade.) “Hey, if you want to keep doing XXX, you’ll need to take the promotion”. Or “this actually belongs in Department Q, so we’re moving it back there.”

        2. The curator*

          Yes but, is it higher level work or is it additional work? If spout work takes no more effort than handle work or lid work, in my workplace that does not warrant an increase on a salary band. He is just doing the same level work. If he is happiest on Spout work and Handles and Lids is not taking time from that then he will just have to live with “stuff he would rather not do?” He has an impression that the addition of Handles and Lids deserves more money, what is the negative of the promotion. Does it take him out of a bargaining unit? Does it mean he has to supervise? Does it mean he loses overtime. If there is zero impact to him on those areas. Give him the promotion, give him the money.

          1. Blueberry Girl*

            The problem is that he does not want the promotion and has made it clear that he will not accept the promotion if offered. He does not want it. He attempted to explain to me, but frankly it was a mystifying explanation that involved a diatribe about the capitalist system. It was a… strange conversation.

        3. tamarack and fireweed*

          Well, if he *is* underpaid for what he does, and the pay grades are approximately right for the job descriptions, and you can’t pay him more without giving him a promotion… why not give him a promotion? Apparently he already exceeds his current job description. Is there something extra in the next job title up that he really really would have to take on?

          Otherwise, I agree with some other commenters that you get to decide the priorities here. Do you want him to put more work in that spout project that he’d like to work on too? Then ideally he could come up with a way to make room for more spout work in his schedule. On the other hand, do you think it’s ok if the spouts languish for the time being while lids are getting his professional attention? Then there’s nothing really to fix here.

          What you don’t want to do is to say “I can’t give you more money but I can give you less responsibilities” to someone whose professional identity is tied up in having all those responsibilities. He won’t be happy at this sort of trade. (While another employee might jump at it.)

  130. kible*

    got a job offer yesterday (finally!) and signed it today after an interview with a different company that i wanted to see how it went…which was ok but ended poorly. person i talked to wasn’t too happy when i said their timeline wasn’t fitting in with mine *shrug*

    at least i’m done looking.

    2. Tau*

      So… how do you communicate that you’re leaving to colleagues?

      I gave notice last week and my boss asked me to stay quiet about it for a bit so he could inform people. Fine, sure, I was expecting that. But now he said “OK, I’ve told who I want to tell, go for it!” and I’m like… what is the actual way you do this? It’s a company that I’ve been in from very early on and that’s grown a lot since, and my role was recently shifted significantly, so there’s a mix of people who I know well because we’ve been there for yonks together but don’t really work closely with, people who very recently joined my old team who probably expected they’d be working with me and I might have to hand over a lot of stuff to (but maybe not because maybe all those old projects are dying), people who I’ve been working with for the last few weeks but only ever really saw in company meetings before that… gah.

      So far my strategy has been to try to grab the people I know particularly well to let them know in person, but I’m not sure if I should just like… mention casually at the end of a project meeting “by the way I’m leaving, all this new stuff I’ve been doing someone else will have to take over…”

      Also slightly awkward that I don’t know my end date yet – I’m trying to negotiate my company down from the contractually-obligated end of December.

      …this post may have been an excuse to cry about my notice period, actually.

  131. babblemouth*

    I need to know if this is as weird as I think, or if I’m overreacting:

    A group of colleagues in my office have joined a local health challenge. This isn’t a company challenge, but they are using the office noticeboards meant for miscellaneous socialising to advertise it and encourage others to join. So far, I have no problem with that.
    One of the main goals of the challenge is weight loss. There are physical activity goals, but the way they measure success or not success is whether people hit a weight loss goal.
    Here’s what I find weird: to motivate the participants, the organisers have a leaderboard of weight loss where they list the progress of each participant. They have printed several copies out, and posted them around the office. So I (and everyone else in the office) now knows the details of the weight loss journey of a bunch of colleagues, whether they’re doing great or not.
    I am extremely weirded out about knowing all this. I’m fine with the health challenge, but I don’t understand why the majority of employees who did not opt in to the challenge have to know the personal details of someone else’s journey. I really don’t need to know that Fergus shed 10 pounds, but Norma hasn’t progressed at all on her goal. Additionally, I wonder how triggering or difficult it could be for anyone with an eating disorder to be confronted with this on half the doors in the office.
    No one has spoken up about this, or seemed to even notice, so if it’s just me, I don’t want to kick up a fuss for nothing. Is this worth speaking up on? And if so, should I reach out to the challenge organisers or to management, or to HR?

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      As someone who struggles with her weight I find this to be incredibly anxiety-provoking and it’s not even happening to me. This is gross on the face of it and even worse due to exactly what you’re bringing up about potentially triggering people with EDs.

      I wonder if this is one of those things where Alison would advise bringing it up as a group. Are you comfortable with approaching some of the people who are participating in this challenge and sort of feeling out how they feel about it? It might be more impactful if you can get someone who’s directly impacted to come with you to express concerns.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        For what it’s worth, “ED” is one of those acronyms that has so many meanings it trips me up every time… thank you for having context before using it!

    2. dorothyparker*

      Would definitely trigger ED related stuff with me (I’m in recovery). Not to mention, weight does not directly correlate to health (there a dozens of recent studies about how doctors have gone way too far on ascribing health problems to being overweight when the reality is they would have this issue regardless of losing the weight) so it’s not actually demonstrating anything aside from that generally men can more easily lose weight because of how their body and metabolism works and also that employees’ health is dictated by their weight and not a long list of other controllable and uncontrollable things. UGH.

    3. Roja*

      Oh my gosh, the thought of having my weight details broadcast to an entire office is the stuff nightmares are made of. I cannot possibly imagine you’re the only one squicked out by this!!

    4. Parenthetically*

      YUCK EFF NO.

      To the organizers or your manager. “I personally don’t care to know about people’s body composition in the office. It’s far too much information and I find it really uncomfortable. Furthermore, it is common knowledge that discussing things like weight and calorie restriction can be seriously harmful to people struggling with eating disorders. I don’t want us to risk doing active harm to someone who is in recovery, or re-triggering them. Can I ask that the participants please use some other format to track their metrics? Posting them all around the office makes it impossible for people to avoid, and between folks in recovery from or still dealing with eating disorders and folks like me who just don’t want to be confronted with their coworker’s personal bodily composition whenever they want to refill their coffee, I think it’s better that they keep this stuff among the group.”

    5. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I’m a certified fitness instructor and 100% weight loss is not an acceptable proxy for fitness goals. There are lots of reasons someone is a certain weight that have very little to do with fitness, and thus you should measure fitness based on fitness targets that are appropriate for the type of exercise being done. You might measure flexibility/range of motion for someone doing yoga, or speed/distance for someone doing biking/running/cycling, or max amount of weight lifted for strength training.

      A second reason it’s a bad idea to measure fitness via weight is that muscle mass is heavy, and if a particular fitness regimen causes someone to build muscle, they are going to gain weight.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Word.

        You know, coincidentally, just yesterday I came across a study that shows that that 75 MILLION US adults are misclassified as “healthy” or “unhealthy” when using BMI as the metric. Apparently over half of all adults in the “overweight” BMI category are cardiometabolically healthy (i.e., based on blood pressure, cholesterol, triglycerides, insulin resistance, etc.), while over 30% of all adults in the “normal” BMI category are cardiometabolically UNhealthy. (The study is Tomiyama et al. if you’re interested.)

    6. LilySparrow*

      I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think you should just not look at it. It isn’t actually triggering you in any way, and you don’t know that there is anyone else in the office who is having some kind of serious struggle. You just don’t like it.

      Your coworkers who are participating are all consenting adults who find this motivating and are proud of themselves. I wouldn’t want to do this challenge either, but nobody is asking you to post your info. If you don’t want to know, you can just not think about it.

      If you feel strongly that this is the cause you need to take up in order to make the world a better place, I’d urge you to put out feelers discreetly to see if there is anyone else who is seriously bothered by it. Going at this as a one-person crusade is not going to enhance your standing with your coworkers.

  132. Sarah*

    I’m interviewing for an administrative position in at a university, and I’m wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to how flexible they are regarding things besides salary. (The range is posted). My current position is work from home and flexible hours, plus I get four weeks vacation. I’m pretty certain that the work from home and flexible hours aren’t going to fly (although I’d be happy to be wrong), but I was wondering if anyone has success stories about negotiating for vacation. (It looks like staff start at 2 weeks, and I’d be asking for at least 3).

    1. fposte*

      Public or private school? The publics I know are completely constrained on the vacation days, but actually flexible hours and some remote work are possible in some positions. With an adminstrative position the question is access, both student and non-student. Is it a position where people would drop by to get stuff done? How flexible is the “flexible” you’re looking for on hours? We’ve definitely got some people who do 8-4 and may have some who do 10-6, and generally there’s room for people to do doctor’s appointments, etc.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        This. Public versus private makes a huge difference, and it may even differ greatly state by state.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      It’s certainly something you should ask in the interview, but I honestly would be prepared for the answer to be “not really possible”. It totally depends, but in my current (private) university, even though there are official HR policies allowing remote work and flexible schedules, it’s up to each director and most of them aren’t supportive of it.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Oh, and I wouldn’t expect to be able to negotiate vacation or any other benefits. They kind of offer what they offer and that’s it.

    4. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      It has been my experience that they are not flexible at all esp. for admin positions. However, you can still negotiate the starting salary as long as it is in the range.

    5. Sarah*

      Thanks. It’s a public institution in Canada, and it’s in the Advancement office.

      An 8-4 would be great, but it’s not a dealbreaker. That’s a bummer about vacation as that really is something I value. I wonder if I could use that to negotiate a higher offer within their range.

      Of course, I have to get the offer first!

      1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Ok. In Canada, everything could be different. I assumed the US. Things may be different for you.

        1. Sarah*

          There are probably some differences (i.e. maternity leave is government mandated), but overall I think the culture has a lot of similarities.

          1. Mo*

            I don’t know if you’re still reading this, but I work at a public university in Canada (in the Advancement office, too!) and I don’t think you’d have any flexibility with vacation time. We get three weeks to start (plus the week off between Christmas and New Years), so it’s a decent amount. And we’re union-run, so I don’t think you’d be able to negotiate that. Good luck!

    6. Alianora*

      I’m an administrative assistant at a large private university, and flexible hours/work from home are mainly up to the department and your specific manager within the department. You probably would need to look for specific work from home jobs in order to work from home full-time, but many departments at my university allow staff to work from home one or two days a week.

      We’re actually not flexible on vacation accrual at all. The rate is set based on your job grade and length of time in the position, and this is a university-wide policy. Same with some other benefits – everyone gets the same choices of healthcare and retirement plans. Completely non-negotiable, although several options are offered.

  133. Morning Duty*

    Started a new position recently and I’m stressing out about my morning bathroom break…

    Sorry for TMI but I have to use the bathroom in the mornings for 10-15 minutes for y’know. It’s daily and has been going on for a few years so my GI is fine. But I’m worried that my direct manager, who sits behind me, will become annoyed by my long morning bathroom break. It doesn’t help that I need to stay hydrated to ward off headaches, so I take shorter bathroom breaks every 1.5 – 2 hrs.

    Am I overthinking things here? I’m a diligent hardworker but it’s taking me some time to learn the new systems so my productivity is low right now – its my first week here . But I don’t think my bathroom breaks slow me down that much…

    1. Jamie*

      Yes, you are really over thinking this.

      There are certain things that just need to happen no matter what and bathroom stuff tops that list. And I drink water all day long and if anyone dared say a word about how often I head to the ladies room I would certainly defend my facilities usage.

    2. Parenthetically*

      10-15 minutes? Eh. If you were getting up to have a pee, refill your coffee, and grab something off the printer, you’d be gone for 10 minutes.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re overthinking it. Most reasonable people aren’t timing your bathroom breaks to begin with.

      So if someone isn’t at their desk, I will circle back 20-30 minutes later if necessary but I always assume they need to be away from their desk, that’s their own thing. I don’t care if you’re in the bathroom, fixing some coffee or over at the copier running off some reports or out in the shop talking to Jimbo about an order that went sideways, etc.

      You’re new. You also don’t have anything super pressing and most of the time we expect you to be slow for awhile, you’re learning processes! It has nothing to do with needing the restroom more frequently. Also if I see you’re constantly drinking water, I’m thinking “Good, hydration is good.” and know that comes with bathroom breaks. Unless you’re on desk coverage and being away for that long is an issue in that aspect, yeah not a problem. If you had desk coverage, then I’d say make it known more than anything just so they know you’re aware of it being a possible issue, given the phones may ring to voicemail more often than a company would like or whatever.

  134. Rust1783*

    I recently left the industry I had worked in for 15 years because I was frustrated by my lack of advancement. For sake of analogy, think of it as working for Boys and Girls Clubs. I have a resume, education, contacts, experience, etc that point firmly in the direction of running a Club, and that has been my goal for some time. I had a series of disappointing job interviews over the course of two years that made me think it was either never going to happen, or the only possibility would involve moving to some terribly undesirable city, since most cities only have one, maybe two Clubs. So, I changed industries.

    My current city has a Club which is not well managed, to my great frustration. Recently they hired an acquaintance of mine to do marketing. She is significantly younger than me and has almost no experience with Clubs, but I thought she would do this particular job well. After only a few months, the executive director announced that he had promoted her to a brand new position of “associate executive director,” with all kinds of responsibilities and professional development. I was rather surprised by this. Then this week, he mysteriously announced that he was taking a long sabbatical and this person would be the interim executive director for at least 6 months, after having worked in the industry for less than a year.

    This is the kind of thing that launches your career; when he returns from his sabbatical, she could immediately go on the job market and get a job elsewhere as an executive director at a different Club if she wants. I have seen this very thing happen. Or she could suddenly find herself as permanent executive director right here, if circumstances change. I am not jealous exactly, because I have honestly written the industry off. But I am EXTREMELY frustrated to see this kind of thing happen, and not for the first time. I have basically slaved away at a series of Boys and Girls Clubs in major American cities, with the goal of developing a skill set that would allow me to take on a significant position of leadership, and despite years of aiming for that precise goal, my career was going nowhere. Now, I see yet another frankly unqualified person find themselves unexpectedly in the exact position I was aiming for. Unless she really screws up – unlikely – she now has a golden ticket if she wants to run another Club elsewhere.

    Might I add that this industry (again, not actually B&G Clubs) is notorious for bad management, widespread bankruptcies, labor strife – in short, it is not the kind of industry that needs more under-qualified leaders or dilettantes. Yet I see this situation happen again and again. I am just really bummed out today.

    At least I like my current job. But I feel my creativity, energy, and experience are being wasted here while the industry I truly love continues to inflict damage on itself.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Ugh, how frustrating! Some people really do luck into things, and some of us never get to the thing that all of our experience points us toward.

  135. Three of Three*

    Started a new entry job at a middle sized company (~60 people) and it’s been great so far! But could someone help me understand how climbing the ladder and increasing my salary works if my department only has 3 people, which is the director, manager, and now me? I’m currently a “Purchasing Officier” and the person who was previously in my position got moved to a different department. I overheard my director saying that all of his employees get snatched away by different departments but I’d like to stay in my current one.

    However, should I expect my position to become higher level with another 1-2 years of experience? Or is it common to stay stuck in the same title/position/salary until you’re moved? This is my first post-college job so I appreciate the advice.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      In a company that size, unless they start ballooning and growing over the years, you will indeed need to move to another department to grow most likely. However if you hangout a couple of years, there is a good chance they may have one of those changes to make a new higher-title, higher paying position to create that you can slip into. I wouldn’t bank on that but it does happen.

      You may change your mind after awhile about staying in that department as well! Once you get your whistle wet and get more knowledge of the company and your likes/dislikes and career is starting to unfold in front of you. So don’t pigeonhole yourself so quickly but it’s great that right now, in the now, you want to say [seriously that’s great!] My advise is to chill and keep learning, things will present themselves when you’ve been there a couple of years!

  136. Lissa*

    Harmless but kind of annoying coworker quirk I feel the need to share here. Extremely over the top sympathy in unnecessary situations. For example “got caught in the rain!” will get a response of “I’m so sorry that happened to you” totally sincerely. And if something is mildly annoying, she’ll act like the mildly annoying person has done me a severe slight/wrong. When I wasn’t bothered about it at all, and just can’t see how in a sane world anyone would think this would be worthy of say, a complaint up the chain.
    It makes me feel like I have to be 100% positive all the time. And I am generally a pretty positive person! These things are not even registering in my own mind as “negative”! Aaaagh!

  137. Wee Lass*

    Does anyone have experience with teaching English online and how much money you made/whether it’s a good way to work remotely and have a flexible schedule?

    1. StellaBella*

      I do not but my best friend has done this for 9 years now. She works for a firm that is in China and teaches students English online, she lives in Europe. She gets paid about 1500Euro a month. She works 6 days a week but in a flexible schedule and not after 7pm her time. As long as she has good internet it works well for her.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Similar echo to StellaBella’s comment. A friend is doing this, while living abroad in Europe for awhile. She’s done it before and has had success, so that’s why she’s going back into it.

      It’s all about a reliable internet connection in the end and the flexibility is on both sides, given the time differences that are usually in place.

      I can’t tell you a wage but I know she supports herself this way.

  138. WorkerBee*

    Hi everyone
    Here’s my question:
    I’m a contract worker working in a company with several other contractors and some employees. The jobs of the employees are to provide administrative support to the contractors.
    I’m relatively new at my job (< 5 years experience), and one of the other contractors (Alice, with over 30 years of experience, although only at this company for about 2 years) has been a mentor, helping me get settled into my position and to the city that I moved to, had me over for dinner, tips and tricks, etc.

    I am going to be leaving this company and opening my own business soon and will need administrative support.
    Beatrice, one of the employees, is not happy with the company and has expressed interest in working for me (she submitted a resume and cover letter). Beatrice however does all of Alice's administrative tasks – no one else at the company works directly with Alice. As far as I know their relationship is reasonable – Beatrice is more unhappy with her company rather than Alice herself.

    Beatrice is an excellent worker and I would love to have her work for me, but I am concerned that if she leaves the office to come work for me that Alice will not take it well, particularly given Alice's mentorship of me over the past few years. I'm basically poaching her assistant. My job community is not a large one and Alice is quite well known in the city where I work, and I don't want to poison the well with Alice or with other contractors in my field.

    Could I hire Beatrice given all of this? If not, what can I tell Beatrice? After all, she is a very good worker and would probably be surprised if she wasn't hired.

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      If you want to hire Beatrice, then hire Beatrice. It’s unfortunate for Alice, but if Beatrice is unhappy then she’s going to leave whether you hire her or someone else does.

    2. LQ*

      Did Alice bring Beatrice with her? Like has Beatrice following Alice throughout her career? Or was she already at Current Company and was assigned to Alice when Alice started there?

      1. WorkerBee*

        Alice’s previous admin assistant (Cara) who worked with Alice for > 20 years ended up being hired by the company to work with Alice. Cara later left because she was unhappy with the company, even though that meant that she stopped working with Alice. Beatrice started working with Alice after that – they’ve been working together for about 2.5 years.
        Staff turnover is a big problem with this company, which is why I am leaving. Its not uncommon for the administrative assistants to leave after 1-2 years.

    3. JustMyImagination*

      I’d be a little weary of the timeline. You’re essentially poaching employees from your current employer.

  139. AWSW*

    Can I network with people I commute with?

    I ride a commuter train, so I see the same people almost everyday. I am nodding acquaintances with them. I also happen to know that a few of them work at a place one my best friends has applied to (and has an interview next week!). The extent of my conversations with this co-commuters so far have been about either the weather or the train itself. Can I just out of the blue one day start telling them about my great friend who wants to work with them? Or is that super annoying?

    Thanks for your time!

    1. MoopySwarpet*

      I wouldn’t tell them about how great your friend is, but it might not be too out of the blue to mention you have a friend who recently applied. That leaves enough opening if they are curious or interested, they can ask further, or they can say “oh, that’s nice” and change the subject.

    2. Yes Anastasia*

      It’s a kind thought, but I can’t imagine it would be all that valuable to your friend, considering she already has an interview.

  140. Lily*

    When does an interview process become free consulting, and where or how do you draw the line while still being considered for the role?

    I’ve been interviewing for what seemed like a fantastic job, that is a bit of a reach for me given my current level of experience. So you can imagine that I was extremely excited when they wanted to interview me and I prepared like crazy. I had 2 pretty extensive phone interviews with the CEO and CTO (very small company) that went well. They followed those up with a request that I create a hypothetical-but-not-really marketing plan for their company. It was hypothetical in name only, and the assignment seemed like way too much to ask during an interview process before even meeting me in person, but I wanted the job so I did it. I spent about 8 hours putting it together over a weekend, and they seemed thrilled with what I submitted.

    They then asked me to come in for an in-person interview and to meet the team. The in-person interview was extensive. They had me present my plan, give them a detailed walk-through of my thought process, and answer a series of questions about the plan and my thoughts for how to market their product. Nodding and note taking throughout the whole thing. I though it went well and they indicated they’d be making a decision within a week. A week passes, and they ask me to do another meeting with the co-founder of the company instead. I’m frustrated but I agree to the meeting since he wasn’t available when I met everyone else. This ends up being another very detailed and specific conversation where he asks me to perform a competitive analysis on the fly. ‘

    At the end of this meeting, he asks me come in next week to do a half-day with the team!! I asked what the timeline looked like for making a decision, and got a vague “within a month” as they’re still considering SERVERAL candidates.

    So what’s the deal? Am I being played with? Does this seem like a company who is crowdsourcing strategy and doesn’t actually intend to hire? Should I agree to the half-day, and if not how do I politely set some boundaries here while not blowing my chances?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      Have they given you any information about the job, company, or anything to indicate they are selling *you* on the position? Because it really does sound like you are doing free work for them. This doesn’t sound like an industry that I’m familiar with so maybe it’s more common for your interviews to include multiple work products, but the second in-person meeting was where I would have drawn the line.

      I definitely would balk at another half day of you doing work for them without any sign of reciprocation, and especially if you’re taking time off of a current job to do it! So, first find out what this half day consists of. If they’re finally going to give you a chance to interview *them* and not grill you any further, then cool. (And be prepared to end the conversation if they do ask you to do work.)

      But if they expect you to do another “working” interview, this time with the team? I would say that you feel you have substantially demonstrated your capabilities already by developing different work products and would consider further work only through a consulting contract. I don’t know if there’s a more diplomatic way to phrase that but I think it needs to be said.

      If they really do have other candidates doing this same thing, though, you probably will be dropped if you push back. (In which case, blast ’em on Glassdoor!) But you also might not get the job even after putting in all this unpaid effort anyway, so you’d have to determine if that’s really a loss.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Agreed with all of this – this situation is sketchy as hell. One exercise to see how you work that only takes about two hours? That’s reasonable. But having you do several hours of work and then in-depth presentations without a firm timeline for when they plan to hire? Nah, they’re screwing with you.

      2. Lily*

        Sorry, I should’ve said this earlier: The job is a marketing manager role in a small company with around 10 employees.

        I was told that the goal of having me do a half day would be for me to meet the team (which I already did at my first in-person when he was out of town). He then proceded down the list of all the employees until he found one I’d only had a brief introduction with, and then said yes that’s why you need to come in! – for a half-day!

        1. Lily*

          Also, thank you both for your replies. I was feeling like this was getting out of hand, but you’ve helped me see that I’m not crazy and that it’s time to push back even if it costs me the “job” which may or may not exist.

    2. Documentor*

      It sounds like you have your answer already, which is they are indeed using you and while serious about understanding their desire for better marketing they are not handling that seriously. At 10 people, this is still a small/micro company and it sounds like they are using this process to build a basis of understanding.

      That’s not your problem, of course. You have given them a huge teaser already as to what you can do, and it’s now time to give them your terms vs wait for them to pull it together. It could be that at this point they can’t commit to anyone so pitching it in a contract format may work better for whatever fear may be driving this for them.

      Good luck, but would not waste any more time doing anything with them until they evaluate an offer.

  141. Grace*

    I had my first face-to-face interview as a new graduate today, and I…think it went well? They were incredibly nice, at least. I’m still working on the They want to hire someone as much as you want a job, they’re not out to get you, they clearly think you have potential thing. Probably hearing back next week about interview #3/face-to-face #2.

    A lot of it was very personality-based – it’s a very small office, so they said (reasonably) that someone who really wants socialisation and client-facing type stuff isn’t a good match. Luckily, I’m introverted af, and my answer to “So it seems like X and Y on your CV (yes, I’m British) is very client-facing, do you think you’d miss that?” is “Definitely not, I can be pleasant and smiley at customers and it’s fine but I find it kind of exhausting for an entire day.” Which seemed to be good.

    Also, pro-tip for interview nerves – if you come within millimetres of dropping a tub of loose setting powder for makeup (aka talc dust with added silicone) all over your dark dress right before leaving, nothing after that can seem anywhere near as terrifying.

    Also also. Thank you so much, AAM, for providing me with ready-made answers for what to do when you encounter conflict in a small office. I mean, I would probably have said something of the sort anyway, but knowing that it’s official-ish advice for interpersonal conflict helped me say it with much more confidence.

    1. Grace*

      Well.

      I ignored an incoming call while writing this because every communication I’ve had with them has been through email and I wasn’t expecting to hear from them. (And because most calls I get are spam, and if it isn’t they’ll leave a voicemail.)

      And lo and behold, there was a voicemail.

      And then when I listened to the voicemail, it was asking if I can do an interview on Monday. I screamed a little. Wish me luck, commentators of AAM!

      So on that topic, (bolding this so it catches attention a bit more) any interview advice for a new grad when you’ve been warned in advance that the final interview is with people higher in the team than before and is more formal than the others? This one felt like a bit of a chat. Unsure about something more major.

      1. Antilles*

        Practice. Practice. Practice.
        Have you read Alison’s free guide (*cough*)? Because it includes a bunch of sample questions. Read them through and think through how you’d answer them. Especially in terms of examples to use. I’m assuming you have limited work history, so figuring out stories to tell and illustrations to use might be more difficult. So try to think through whether you have some stories from school or intern/co-op or summer jobs or etc that might apply.
        Do you have a story of a group project where someone just wasn’t pulling their weight? That could be a good illustration for “tell me about a time when you had to deal with a difficult situation”. Did you have a professor who wasn’t really being clear so you needed to figure out how to politely ask for clarification despite the difference in seniority/authority? Sounds like a good example of “have you encountered a situation where you had to adjust to changing conditions”. And so forth.

    2. MonteCristo85*

      This is very much a side note, but I had a work colleague recommend makeup before dressing once, which is a thing I had never even thought of before, but let me tell you, it can be a life saver. That and doing eye shadow before your face…saves a lot of time and mistakes, lol.

  142. Third or Nothing!*

    Positive work development:

    Thanks in part to the fabulous advice found on AAM, I gathered up the courage to talk to our new VP several months ago about pursuing cross training opportunities and expanding my responsibilities. Today we had a meeting where he 1) relayed positive feedback from my boss, 2) expressed some accurate insights about the ways in which the company could utilize my currently unused skills, and 3) gave me an ongoing project that aligns well with my background and abilities. I’m excited since this project is actually pretty fun for me!

  143. Environmental Compliance*

    I just submitted an application to get the Qualified Environmental Professional Cert through IPEP. Hoping it goes well!

  144. Tau*

    So… how do you communicate that you’re leaving to colleagues?

    I gave notice last week and my boss asked me to stay quiet about it for a bit so he could inform people. Fine, sure, I was expecting that. But now he said “OK, I’ve told who I want to tell, go for it!” and I’m like… what is the actual way you do this? It’s a company that I’ve been in from very early on and that’s grown a lot since, and my role was recently shifted significantly, so there’s a mix of people who I know well because we’ve been there for yonks together but don’t really work closely with, people who very recently joined my old team who probably expected they’d be working with me and I might have to hand over a lot of stuff to (but maybe not because maybe all those old projects are dying), people who I’ve been working with for the last few weeks but only ever really saw in company meetings before that… gah.

    So far my strategy has been to try to grab the people I know particularly well to let them know in person, but I’m not sure if I should just like… mention casually at the end of a project meeting “by the way I’m leaving, all this new stuff I’ve been doing someone else will have to take over…”

    Also slightly awkward that I don’t know my end date yet – I’m trying to negotiate my company down from the contractually-obligated end of December.

    …this post may have been an excuse to cry about my notice period, actually.

    1. MoopySwarpet*

      Wow. over 3.5 months for notice! That’s insane. I think I would tell people you’re close to as it comes up. When you know if they’ll let you out early, I’d probably tell more people and/or send out an email (bcc to avoid the reply all wars) to anyone you think needs to know, but you don’t have much relationship with. I’d try to avoid blindsiding anyone in a project meeting.

      Really, though, beyond the people you want to say goodbye to and/or keep in contact with, I’d wait until you have a firm end date to start telling people you work more randomly with. At this far out, it might come across as not wanting to actually work during your notice period. Maybe you could ask your boss how you should handle new projects that are expected to last past your worst case last day.

      1. Tau*

        It’s actually reasonably standard in Germany (three months to the end of the month – if only I’d had the offer a few days earlier I could have quit in August and it’d be end of November…). Still breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the new place has two months instead. And have been having fun conversations with people in my personal life – “I found a new job!” “That’s awesome, when do you start?” “…January!”

        Anyway, thanks for the advice! That sounds reasonable, and on track with what I’ve been doing :) Thankfully, at the moment there’s no long-term stuff coming up, it’s one SUPER IMPORTANT project that must be finished by the end of September or woe to us all that I got pulled onto about two weeks ago and after that my boss and I were planning to assess my change of responsibilities and whether I wanted to continue or move back onto my old team anyway.

  145. dorothyparker*

    So I met my boyfriend at work. We’ve worked together for 2+ years and have dated since the spring (there was some on-off at first but we’re both really committed to our relationship and are working through the challenges). He’s really well-known and regarded at our org. I’m newer but still have gotten great performance reviews and do good work as well. After we solidified that we were really together, we notified HR to cover ourselves, though our work touches but doesn’t overlap. As time has passed, people have found out that we’re together (we’ve run into people outside of the office or they’ve seen something on social media–back when he first started, he followed/was friended by a number of coworkers). We don’t tend to speak to each other at work unless it’s related to work and if we have plans after work we meet outside of our office. That said, I work on a small tightly knit team (and since he’s so beloved I think there’s some general intrigue that we’re together), and we’ll chat about plans for the weekend or the vague SO stuff sometimes. I will in those contexts refer to him as I would refer to any boyfriend. Is that inappropriate to do because he works with us? It’s not as if I’m referring to the dynamics of our relationship. More like, Joe and I are going hiking this weekend!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your jobs don’t overlap and you’re not in the same department, so you’re doing everything right! Don’t not mention him because others know him, that’s odd and so restrictive. If others normally say “Yeah me and the spouse/partner/bf/gf are going hiking this weekend.” it doesn’t matter if I know Joe or not, it’s just standard chatter among colleagues.

      It’s good to be mindful that they know him! So of course you wouldn’t go in all “Argh Joe and I had a fight” because that’s awkward stuff and not really acceptable if you don’t know the SO but even worse if you know the person, you know? But just basic neutral stuff, don’t sweat it.

  146. Iron Chef Boyardee*

    The discussion of the woman who speaks baby talk at work earlier today made me think of a commercial currently running for a brand of gummi bear candies. It shows a group of executives in a meeting, talking like children (in children’s voices) as they enjoy the product.

    I know the message the advertiser is trying to get across – “our product makes you feel like a kid” – but that’s not what I’m seeing.

    I see managers who wouldn’t tolerate the same playful behavior from their subordinates, and would write them up for unprofessional conduct in the office.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Considering the antics that go on unchecked or noticed by management, I don’t ever see it like that personally. But that’s an interesting twist.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      I’m not super fond of that commercial. It didn’t make me want to buy gummi bears, it just made me think “ooooookay then”. I don’t even remember what brand it’s for.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        But tell me, does the Skittles commercial where they get “skittlepox” make you wanna eat skittles or just lick someone’s face to see how they react?!

        They do fail miserably since their name doesn’t stick but advertising wise, the fact we’re talking about the commercials right now means they did part of their job. You’ll probably subconsciously pick those gummi bears the day you do make that impulse buy ;)

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          It makes me not want Skittles at all, honestly! I think that one is super gross too.

          I usually just buy Haribo gummis, since I already like the taste of that brand, lol. Maybe they did the commercial, but really I just have the most familiarity with that brand so that’s what I go for. Not that I buy gummi anythings very often.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            NGL, I stopped eating Snickers once they brought Betty White in. That’s how anti-Betty White love that I am. Yes, I’m awful and must be destroyed.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              She’s in the Snickers commercials? Huh. I’m the worst with celebrities, tbh. I can’t keep track of anyone and I’m pretty ambivalent about nearly all of them.

              Book characters, though… I have my favorites and I will talk your ear off about how awesome/horrible characters are lol.

              1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                She was at some point, I dont’ know if they still air.
                I have opted out of commercials in favor of paying the extra fees for Hulu for so long…I usually only see commercials when I’m at the sports bar these days which is very rare for my hermitty self.

                I am a fickle person when it come to celebrities, my big old cross to carry. I have made enemies and friends over the years due to my utter hatred for Brad Pitt’s face, so good thing he’s not trying to sell me any snack treats! I would burn even my beloved ChexMix to the ground in my mind and dance in the fictional ashes if that were the case.

  147. Frequent Reader Rare Commenter*

    I read here often and comment very rarely, and I hesitated to post this because I don’t want to potentially put Alison in a bad position by pitting her against another columnist, so I’m bringing this up in the thread. Did anyone see Annie’s advice to a LW who deems their new coworker “Carla” a liar for bringing a sexual harassment charge against another coworker, and wants to get “Carla” fired?

    https://www.arcamax.com/healthandspirit/lifeadvice/dearannie/s-2272291

    Annie advises the LW to gather their like-minded coworkers and go to HR to ask that “Carla” be fired or at least moved.

    This advice is so wrong I felt myself start to vibrate as I read it. So I thought I’d turn to you all who have learned over the years from Alison’s wisdom, for discussion and hopefully fellow feeling.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oh dear.

      I mean, on its face… Carla made an accusation, there was an investigation, her accusation was determined to be unfounded.

      And yet.

      Oh dear.

    2. Rick Tq*

      Carla lied in an attempt to get someone fired. HR investigated and said “not founded” and Carla refused to go to the police.

      I don’t see any reason to keep an employee that vindictive on staff.

      Carla has to go.

      1. Fikly*

        Concluding that Carla lied is a big leap. All we know is that Carla said x happened, whatever internal investigation happened concluded no proof. Carla then declined to go to the police. This could be because Carla was so demoralized from not being believed by her job that she felt there was no point in going to the police, something that commonly happens to victims.

    3. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      There are no good possibilities here:

      1) Fred assaulted Carla and she (like many sexual assault survivors) is reluctant to go to the police because she thinks she won’t be believed or will have to undergo intrusive exams and questioning and so on. Statistically, this is the most likely scenario—it happens every day.

      2) Some interaction happened between them that Fred thought was fine and Carla thought was not fine, like he tried to get a bit of lint out of her hair while she was still in his car, and she thought he was trying to kiss or fondle her while she was in a confined space, and this was legitimately distressing for her but not, by definition, assault.

      3) Carla deliberately lied about being assaulted. Unlikely, but horrific if true.

      “Human resources concluded that they had no proof of any wrongdoing” but absence of proof is not proof of absence. (Which I’m sure HR knows, as that phrasing sounds pretty deliberate.)

      In HR’s shoes, I’d certainly do my best to separate Carla and Fred, since I can’t imagine they have a good working relationship at this point. I’d keep an ear out for any further issues involving either of them. If other colleagues raised concerns, I’d tell them that the Carla-Fred matter was considered settled and that they would need to behave professionally with both Carla and Fred regardless of their personal beliefs about what happened or who was at fault.

      In Annie’s shoes, I’d encourage the LW to accept that she cannot know the truth of what, if anything, happened between Carla and Fred; to consider how her perception is being shaped by her personal comfort with Fred and discomfort around Carla (who’s “very difficult to work with” in some unspecified way that could mean anything from “chews loudly at her desk” to “has started telling the LW’s boss about all the shoddy work the LW has been getting away with for years”); and to stay focused on her work, especially as she may need to try to find another job if the atmosphere at her office becomes too tense for her.

      In the LW’s shoes, I’d be pretty unsettled and uncomfortable, and think about whether it was maybe time to look for work. I would not leap to “one of my colleagues needs to be fired!”.

      Over the past couple of years, I’ve seen a good friend turn into a raging alcoholic who neglected her children, and another friend’s husband compulsively cheat and lie despite being in an open relationship where literally the only rule was “don’t lie to anyone”. An acquaintance I’d known and liked for 20 years was brought up on charges for abusing the young daughters of his neighbor. I get that the LW is distressed by the possibility that someone she’s liked and trusted for a long time could grievously harm someone else. But sometimes that happens, and you have to find ways of coming to terms with it—ways that don’t involve retaliation against the person who reported the assault.

  148. It's Jess*

    So, it has always been established that my coworker takes lunch from 12:00-1:00, and I take lunch from 1:00-2:00. We’re both in customer services positions, so our lunches can’t overlap since someone always needs to be covering the phones. The problem I’m running into is that he will NEVER go before 12:00. Not even at 11:59. Even when it’s not busy at 11:55 and it seems like the perfect time for him to leave, he won’t get up and go to lunch. Ultimately, it seems like he’s ALWAYS getting tied up on the phones right at 12:00 (I try to grab the phone ASAP once 12:00 hits, but he still beats me to it a lot of times), or a few minutes after (when he still for some reason hasn’t left for lunch). He rarely actually ends up going to lunch before 12:20, leaving me to stay put until at least 1:20 (sometimes, much later).

    The thing is, I get SO hungry. I know the obvious answer is to snack, which I do. However, I don’t like snacking too close to lunchtime and overeat just because I’m forced to take my lunch so late. So, I snack around 10:00 and I’m already starving by the time I’m actually able to grab lunch. Is this just a “me” problem that I need to get over?

    I’m also not keen on asking him to switch lunch shifts. I enjoy taking a late-ish lunch so there’s not much time left in the workday once I return. I just don’t like taking lunch SO late that I’m completely famished.

    1. fposte*

      You can ask him about letting you start getting the phone right at 12, but otherwise it seems like your main option is to accept it if you don’t want to switch lunches. Have you talked to him about leaving on time before? Because if not, it might be news to him that this is a problem for you.

      1. It's Jess*

        I have not. He’s a REALLY nice guy, I almost feel bad bringing it up because he’s such a good employee and would never raise an issue with anyone. That’s probably where I have to start, though!

        1. fposte*

          Oh, then absolutely talk to him! He might well be somebody who finds it hard to walk away and “stick you” with a busy desk and doesn’t realize that that’s what you want him to do. You can be a weight on the good side of the scales for him as well as for you.

        2. Parenthetically*

          “such a good employee and would never raise an issue with anyone”

          Well, just to gently push back on this, it doesn’t make you a bad employee to raise an issue with someone! Especially if you know he’s nice and approachable, you should absolutely speak up and say, “Hey, Jim, when your lunch gets pushed back, mine does too, and I’m finding I’m getting lightheaded/low blood sugar/just super hangry when I’m not able to eat until 1:30. Could I ask you to err on the side of leaving earlier rather than later when you have the chance, even if it means it’s a few minutes before 12? Or could we plan to start the switch at 11:50 instead of right at 12 in case something comes up?”

          1. valentine*

            it doesn’t make you a bad employee to raise an issue with someone
            Yes.

            And his niceness doesn’t extend to making sure you get to go to lunch at 1:00. (Unless the times are just guidelines, you’re the only one who sees them as firm, and you’ve never said it’s vital.) Either he leaves by 12:00 or you start leaving at 1:00 even if he’s not back. It’s possible, though, that he wants a/the later lunchtime but won’t say so. Think about solutions for that, such as switching times every week? What happens when one of you is out?

            If I were you, I’d take the early time so I wouldn’t have to depend on him.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s okay to need to have a discussion like this with someone, despite their standing as a good employee! He’s not in trouble, you’re not scolding him, you’re not mad at him.

          It’s like if your partner does something you don’t like, you don’t just deal with it because “well I love him and he’s nice, I don’t want to address the fact he puts the dishes in the sink instead of the dishwasher.”

          You say “Hey Kyle, can we chat about lunch? I like our setup, I enjoy a later lunch but I find that sometimes I’m not able to go until 1:20 due to you not leaving for lunch until late! Can we come up with a better system so that I’m not being so inconvenienced on a regular basis? Can we come up with a strategy so that phones from 11:50 on are my game so that you can wrap up and get out of here by 12?”

          He’s most likely doing it because he’s just very diligent about his time being not early but not concerned about it being late. He could have come from a background where clocking out for lunch 5 minutes early was a punishable by firing squad kind of thing since some places are weird like that.

          Have a friendly conversation with him. He’s nice, I doubt he’s going to bite and would like to know that he’s making your days harder by that kind of thing!

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      Could he shift his lunch to 11:45 or something to offset the potential of running late? That also gives you a few minutes between your lunches in case you need to relay something that happened while he was gone.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        ^this! Is it possible to schedule lunches so that you’re not overlapping, but also not adjoining lunch breaks? That gives him (and you!) 30 minutes leeway or so? 11:30 isn’t too early for lunch, and that would put 30 minutes between yours and his for information passing and buffer for any delays.

      2. Antilles*

        I would actually go with this option, because it’s got two clear benefits for HIM.
        1.) If he wants to go out anywhere for lunch, he gets there just before the lunch rush. You might not think leaving work at 11:45 versus 12:00 would make an enormous difference, but let me assure you it does. If you get to the restaurant at 11:55, you walk right up to the counter; if you get there at 12:10, there’s already a line forming.
        2.) That little bit of overlap between his return at 12:45 and you leaving at about 1:00 allows you to more easily transition things and gives him a couple minutes to get back in the swing rather than him getting hit by something major the instant he sits back down.
        You say he’s a really nice guy and good employee, so he’ll probably be willing to modify his schedule a little just because it helps you, but it never hurts to be able to honestly present something as a win-win.

    3. Blueberry Girl*

      This seems like something you need to speak to him about. Can you just explain that you’d really like to try to take over the phones at say, 11:45 so he can get his lunch at at noon? Because you really want to be able to leave at 1.

    4. Aggretsuko*

      I don’t think there is a solution if you don’t want to snack or ask him or move your lunch. Also, I have sat in a call center and EVERYONE calls at 12 sharp and getting out at a precise time is nigh impossible anyway.

      I think you need to use your words and straight up ask him, ‘PLEASE LEAVE AT 12 SHARP, I WILL TAKE THE CALLS. I AM RAGING STARVING WHEN I HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL 1:20 TO EAT.”

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I wonder if you should re-think switching lunch times with him. If you’re so hungry by your assigned lunchtime that a delay of 15 or 20 minutes is causing you to feel like you’re starving, it might be worth it to get your nourishment reliably a bit earlier so you’re more prepared to face the rest of the day.

      *I say this as someone who regularly starts lunch before 11:30 because I am a bottomless pit

    6. Psyche*

      It seems like the starting point would be to ask him if he minds going to lunch when there is a lull at 11:55 or so. He probably has not really thought about it and just has “I go to lunch at 12 or whenever I finish the call, whichever is later” as a default and hasn’t thought through how that affects you.

  149. they know who this is anyway*

    Kind of ranting but…I messed up yesterday by not sending an email about both me and my co-supervisor being in a meeting. (Department rules require a supervisor to be on the production floor at all times. We both signed up for a committee.) Normally I’m good at sending reminders, but I had a busy day yesterday.

    My manager sent an all staff email reminding us of policy, and the meeting organizer also sent a reminder five minutes later about the same issue. In addition, the manager who covered for us sent an email about some issues that he had addressed when we were out. (These were things I’d spoken about before but still kept happening – like using cell phones actively instead of just listening to music.)

    On one hand, I feel like all of those messages were a bit much, and could be condensed. On the other hand, I did really mess up here. So I’m not sure if it’s okay for me to feel annoyed here.

    1. they know who this is anyway*

      Other rants: no one really uses calendars, so although I had it blocked off on mine, no one would look at it.

      The cell phone thing isn’t a safety issue or a confidentiality issue – we don’t forbid people from having personal devices at their desks wholesale. The way our cell phone policy has been explained to me is that it’s to make sure employees are focused on their work and not – like – looking at TikTok.

      Yesterday, I had to wrap up for a delivery, sort out coverage due to callouts, go to a job training session, and ensure that there was work available because we were low in several areas.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Been there, felt that. I hate the overkill. I forgot to proofread one day (because more drama came up that I had to go deal with, and I never got back to it) for something non urgent that I hadn’t gotten to finishing. And then multiple emails and Talking Tos were held with me about it and I just wanted to say JEEBUS CHRIST IT WAS ONE FUCKING DAY CALM DOWN. Except I was wrong and they will absolutely hold you to it no matter what. So….yeah.

      1. they know who this is anyway*

        I think part of it is if you have a reputation for competence, people…expect you to always be competent. (I’m guilty of this myself to a degree.) So if you drop the ball on something because you’re human, it is AN EMERGENCY ALL HANDS ON DECK.

        (I should also note my boss sent her email flagged as important. She…does use the important flag a lot in general, but it was still unpleasant!)

  150. Lucette Kensack*

    I just learned that my organization’s policy is to require employees to pay back the difference if they overspend our per diems on meals. So — a colleague just took several clients out to lunch, and their total was ~$6 over the limit for that number of people…. and accounting is asking her to literally write a $6.47 check.

    WTH. Am I crazy, or is that ridiculous?

    1. Peaches*

      Is taking our clients to lunch something that your company encourages? If so, then yeah, I think this is a bit ridiculous. Your colleague has no control over what his clients ordered. Either way, it’s a little crazy to have him literally pay back $6.00.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        It’s neither encouraged nor discouraged. Employees can make their own judgments. In this case, my colleague is the program manager (and controls the budget for that program… so she’s allowed to make decisions on purchases at literally 10,000x the $6 lunch overage.)

    2. Parenthetically*

      I mean, I understand the policy, but I do find it bizarre to nickel-and-dime people like that. You take your clients out for a lavish lunch that tips over into happy hour and goes $100 over budget? Yeah, pay that back, and think next time. But I agree with your impulse that squeezing back $6.47 looks pretty cheap.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I disagree that they should ever have to pay back anything spent on a client visit. I do client work and if they say they want to eat at XYZ four-star restaurant and order a bottle of wine for themselves, you smile and say what great taste you have. I find it hard to imagine a situation in which an employee would be in a position to tell a client “no our budget doesn’t cover that”. Though maybe my perspective is skewed because I work in fundraising.

      2. Lucette Kensack*

        I mean, I don’t think you should have to pay back that, either (except maybe pay back the cost of drinks, if your org — like mine — doesn’t allow the purchase of alcohol).

        IMO, spending too much on a meal merits a reminder from accounting on the rules and, if it’s way overspent, a chat with your supervisor. If it’s an ongoing problem, take away purchase card access and think about it as a performance issue.

    3. Toodie*

      I’d understand the rule if the coworker was just paying for his/her own meal, but not when clients are involved. Then it’s a whole ‘nother ball of wax.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If it were just the employee or an employee lunch, then that would make sense. You all know the limits in that case.

      However it would be wildly inappropriate to take a client to lunch and say “Oh hey y’all, so you can only spend $30 each per company policy or else I have to pay out of pocket!” If someone did that, I would wonder how precarious your firm was to have such a precious way of costing out client relations!

      But if a team goes out, it makes plenty of sense to say “Hey we have a $20 per head per diem to abide by or else it comes out of my pocket.”

      If there’s a written policy involved, lots of accounting departments don’t have any ability to override things on their end, it’s cut and dry “you went over, pay up, here’s the policy you signed.” Which stinks and I would never be able to play by those rules, we have flexibility here. In this case, we’d have flagged it and said “Yo, this went over next time you’d have to pay for it but this is a courtesy reminder to be mindful of the expenditures.” [We don’t have this kind of policy but similar ones in place, if you’re authorized to buy something but the price is wildly different, we will be really PO’ed if you don’t clear it first but we wouldn’t make you pay it back, we may revoke your privileges to purchase things though.]

    6. AdAgencyChick*

      Hell yes it’s ridiculous. You go $6 over on a personal lunch, sure, pay for it yourself. Your client goes $200 over, the company pays and next time you suggest a restaurant with cheaper entrees.

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      In my experience, client meals have always been the exception to the normal per diem policies (the employee might still ahev to abide by the policy for their personal meal) but the sales rep/exec shouldn’t have to pay out of pocket because the client ordered extra guacamole.

    8. Bibliovore*

      Oh I have had to do this. I have written checks for $2.85, $6.25, etc makes me crazy but that is our system. More recently 1.50 for “overtipping”

    9. Lucette Kensack*

      Here’s what this rule makes me want to do: eat cheap meals and tip enough to bring the total riiiiiight to the limit. They’re going to ding us for going 30 cents over and ignore the 100 times we spent 8 bucks less than the limit?

  151. mental health day*

    Not sure what ‘can be done’ about this (although I’d happily take advice if anyone has suggestions). I just need to tell the universe about it. About 6 months ago one of the members of my team had a mental break. No one in office knows about it but me and HR (as it should be). They took some time off and came back in to work. Since then it’s been nonstop trips back to the emergency room, last minute days off, etc. I want them to get better and I want them to take the time to get better. And I know mental health challenges are a _journey_. And we do have a supportive workplace about flextime, etc so no one is giving them grief about being MIA. It honestly feels like everything is getting harder for them and not easier. And I’m their boss, not family or friend, and I don’t know what I should/shouldn’t do/say/ask about how they’re doing. Basically I want to care without being intrusive. And I just want them to feel like ‘them’ again.

    1. LGC*

      Oh, I get this! Health issues are DIFFICULT.

      I was just talking about this in a one on one. It’s something I’m working on getting better at – since my team does production work (think…grooming llamas), anyone calling out causes snarls. And this week has been especially bad, with one of my FT employees letting me know he would be out for 2-3 weeks because of an urgent surgery.)

      I think that part of it is…trying to have fallback plans. If they’re eligible for FMLA or the equivalent in your area, try to help get them set up with it. I’ll try to stick to work impacts if I do need to be critical – and at that, only stuff that’s directly actionable and causing issues (“hey, please give me at least two days notice for appointments so I have time to get coverage – also it’s company policy”). But I’ve also been more conscious about following up on issues in a surface manner lately (if they let me know). Feel free to ask how they’re doing, but don’t press – let them take the lead in disclosure. It sounds like you know a lot about the situation already.

      This is probably different from what a lot of people here would say – but I’ve found that once I started acknowledging struggles I’ve gotten better responses.

      1. LGC*

        Also, I framed this specifically as “health issues” instead of “mental health issues” because…honestly, I think they should be treated the same. (Not directed at you, MHD – just in general!) Obviously, there’s extra sensitivity with MHIs because of the way they present – as “poor behavior” instead of physical illness – but functionally they’re the same. The person can’t work because they’re sick.

        And I’ll also second Rage below – you sound like you genuinely do care and want to do the right thing, and it sounds like you’re already doing a lot of the right things.

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      Man. I can tell you from the standpoint of an employee with chronic medical conditions of both the physical and mental health variety that it really means a lot to me to have my boss check in with me and ask how I’m doing. But we knew each other as colleagues before I came to work for him and have a fairly close working relationship – I’m not sure how I would feel about it were that not true.

      I think you can ask “how are you?” without being intrusive. Sheryl Sandberg talks about this in her book Option B about grief and mourning after her husband’s sudden death – that it meant the world to her to have someone ask her “how are you?” in a meaningful way, rather than the passing-in-the-halls kind of way. It acknowledges that there is Something going on without prying too much into it.

      You’re a great boss for being this concerned about your employee. I am sure they appreciate your support.

  152. annakarina1*

    I’ve been at my job for the past three years, and it’s not a permanent job, but my contract gets renewed every several months. Recently I’ve been looking at other jobs for more benefits and stability, and a few ask for references with the application. My current boss would be my most recent reference, as others are 3-4 years old by now and a little too far in the past for a current assessment of my work/personality. I would like to ask her, but it feels uncomfortable to me because I don’t want her to think I’m going to leave so soon, or that I’m not happy. I like my job, I just need more security than it can provide. She knows my job isn’t permanent, but since it’s renewed a lot, there isn’t a current end date. I’m looking for advice on how to ask my boss for a reference and handling this delicately.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      Why not list the older references, clearly stating how they know you? I suspect they won’t be talking to references till later in the process and it might make more sense to give your current boss at that point?

  153. Valerie Loves Me*

    I had a job interview this week at my company for a position that would be a complete career change, but one that matches my recent degree and in an area that I’m interested in. I spoke with people who would be my senior colleague, my boss, and my grandboss. They went around in a circle and asked me questions about my experience, professional development, skills, etc. It went ok. I don’t think I knocked it out of the park, but I also didn’t come across as a complete idiot.

    However, when I asked the question about whether they had any projects coming up or that they’re currently working on that they’re excited about, the responses surprised me. None of them referenced anything they were working on directly. Both were projects I know quite a bit about and neither are managed by the department or anyone involved in the department. They’re essentially providing supplementary support.

    I know they work on specific projects for the department. The fact that none of them felt strongly enough about them to mention one is disappointing. And I’m worried it also speaks to what they consider important, which I’m not sure I agree with.

    :/

  154. ramonaflowers89*

    I am interviewing for a position very similar to my old one, but the main thing I am concerned about is the schedule is Sun-Thu 12-8 PM. I would lose weekend evenings and a whole weekend day to see my fiance as well as our family and friends. I just don’t know if it’s worth it to go into a job already knowing I will probably resent my hours.

    Does anyone else work such a schedule? Is it worth it? I feel like if I do accept it, I already have a built-in end date of 1.5-2 years because I don’t think I could tolerate it for longer than that (unless the salary is ridiculous, which I doubt it would be).

    1. Aggretsuko*

      How desperately do you need the job? If you really need it, then I guess suck it up, but if you have options I would probably not take it, for the same resentment issues.

      1. valentine*

        Unless your commute’s a nightmare, I see only part of one weekend evening gone. You can sleep as late as possible or have a pre-work nap Sunday if you want to do something that evening. (Or do you not go out on school nights? Maybe people can come to you?) Having Friday instead of Sunday off is a benefit and you have mornings off. I think choosing an end date is premature, unless your loved ones will shun you for not being available Sunday 12-9(? 10?)pm.

  155. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    Question for Alison – is there a way to rearrange the order of comments on the open thread so that newer ones show up at the top? I’ve observed that the readers who get in as soon as you post the thread get tons of feedback and the people who come in later barely get any because not a lot of people are scrolling all the way to the bottom.

      1. fposte*

        I also think a lot of people read from the bottom, so it’s likely to be the middle folks who end up most disadvantaged.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I agree it’s the “middle” that gets skipped most often. I start from the bottom but I also have to skim-read things as well, which means anyone may be skipped just given the volume being dealt with.

          That’s the rub for a blog style format. Instead of a threaded, “bump” thread kind of layout of a BB. You have to just roll with it.

        2. LGC*

          Yeah – speaking from experience I’ve started checking the bottom first because it seems like EVERYONE tries to post within the first hour (and I’ve started holding off on questions).

          You’re basically out of luck if you post between 11:15 and 1 ET, it seems.

  156. Free Meerkats*

    I spent all day on an interview board yesterday for an entry-level plant operator. This was part of a civil service process where they had already taken the written test and we got the top 13 for interviews and practical tests (tool recognition and use, lab procedures, parallel parking a large, restricted visibility vehicle, and a maintenance task.) This was the first large recruiting for the HR rep and there were a few hiccups. As usual, I was impressed by most of the candidates – only a couple of advanced degrees (not needed for this position), but massive practical talent. I think the water plant will have trouble choosing among the top 3 who get hiring interviews; any of the three will be great; I wish the sewer plant had an opening so we could hire one of them.

    To the amazement of both HR folks, all 13 who were scheduled showed up! They’ve been having a lot pf problems with people scheduling and ghosting. And not just entry-level, but higher management folks, too – including a department director position. I mean, WTF?

    It was a big effort for us; 2 HR folks, 6 sewer plant, and 4 water plant people, and our plant manager for all day. But we need to do it to get qualified people who can do the job.

  157. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    My team’s software architect is sexist.
    Last Wednesday some of my female coworkers approached me during lunch to warn me he’s petty and full of himself. According to them, he deliberately delays answering questions and tickets asked by women for days, until a senior man in charge sends a follow-up email. “Maybe he’ll be less rude with you since you’re his equal”, they told me, and so I thought… Until today. I was leaving my lunch tray in its place, when he said behind my back “that’s it, shove it, shove it all in!”. Disgusting.

    3. BadWolf*

      So you whirled around and smacked him with said lunch tray, right?

      Okay, probably not, but wow, it would be hard to resist.

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        I’d loved to, but I was talking with a coworker and I didn’t understand what he said until much later. However, next time I would try to “accidentally” step on him.

        1. Mellow*

          Since you have a witness, and since you expect this to happen again, I’d document it. That’s direct sexual harassment.

  158. No relief*

    I am looking for resources relevant to the operation of tiny business that serve the public with only one person working at a time. Best practices, key laws, case studies? Or feel free to respond with your experiences as an employee or owner of this type of business.. thank you in advance!

    Current issues at my job – having a single person staff what is basically an open shed leaves the shop vulnerable to snatch and grab theft if an employee needs to get something from the back or is super absorbed in cleaning/organizing, taking notes oncustom orders over the phone.
    -smooth business operations with current staffing depend on no gastrointestinal distress, heavy periods, Etc.

  159. Anon Anon 3 x a non*

    So a tiny work celebration and a rant. I get to be at our university’s open house this weekend to give out flyers and info and chat people up – a few thousand people. Super excited about this, I love talking to people.

    The rant is that I was told this past week that I am spending too much time on this event. Context: I work half time. As in a few hours a day, not full days. I have a variety of duties. This event was decided upon in June by our boss. I proposed 3 plans, including having some team mates there to assist and help do some sales and maybe run a small workshop, in context that we have a large team of 24 people. All my plans were nixed, even after securing time for us to present on both days, which was received well, and all this is free of cost to us… but speaking engagement was forgotten about… so now I am trying to re-engage the speaker who was the person who agreed we should do this…and put on a big song and dance to meet up to a few thousand people over this weekend, and try to provide a great experience and interactions …. while feeling down because I was told to do this whole event alone, no one else can attend. Also I am a bit sad because it is clear that my boss does not like me and no matter what I do it is not good enough. Measuring impacts of events like this is difficult too, because I am not actually enrolling students who pay, directly at the event – I would like to but was told we cannot do this. I am doing what we agree needs to be done, and do it well, and with a lot of enthusiasm, but it is clear that my efforts cannot compare to the marketing folks spending a boatload of money on another even in 2 weeks who get to have 6 people attending. Different audiences and all that (businesses vs the public), with different aims, but come on. Relationship building with our colleagues and the public is clearly an objective. I am sorry. Just tired and annoyed.

    Anyway I am going to knock this out of the park and aim to get people enthused about us, and hope for the best.

  160. Purrsilla*

    I mostly want to vent here –

    I work for a start-up that is largely dependent on work-for-hire projects. We had a large project that we worked on for a couple of years, and it was bumpy at first but we ended up with a great team. Then we didn’t get another project, and a lot of people were let go (or left of their own accord). I’m currently working only 3 days a week, which the company offered as an option because they needed to save money. (I actually really like it and wish I could afford to do it all the time, but that’s beside the point.)

    We may eventually get more projects and need to hire people, in which case I could end up with more responsibility and more achievements for my resume. Or the company might go under eventually. There are currently a few appropriate open roles in my industry, and I’ve been contacted by some recruiters. And I don’t know if I want to leave or stay.

    What I really want to do is take a few months to work on personal projects and learn some new skills, but I’m afraid all the good jobs will be gone if I turn them down now.

    1. Meredith*

      Have you been applying to other jobs? It sounds like you can’t indefinitely stay at 3 days/week. You don’t have to accept another job if you get the offer, but something really great might come along that’s not all that apparent on paper (kind of the opposite of the “dream job” that ends up being anything but).

      1. Purrsilla*

        Theoretically I will go back to full time in a couple of months, so money shouldn’t be a problem unless things get worse, in which case I will definitely job hunt. (I have a bunch of savings, so not too worried, just can’t do it forever.)

        I talked to a recruiter this morning, and have a phone interview scheduled for Monday. I’m a little annoyed with the timeline here – I’m going out of town for a couple of weeks, and they wanted to do an interview before I leave, which doesn’t give me as much prep time as I would like. I also have a feeling that this job is going to be a step back in terms of responsibility. (Note – I didn’t apply for this job, they contacted me and I didn’t want to string them along too long.)

        I am definitely keeping an eye out for other jobs – guess I’ll see what my current company’s status looks like when I get back from my vacation.

  161. carrot cake*

    How nervous do you guys usually get before phone interviews and in-person interviews? I know that it’s completely normal to get nervous, I just want to gauge what kind of behavior is excessive and should indicate getting outside help to manage anxiety.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      Dry mouth, damp palms, increased sweating, butterflies in the stomach, and tightness of voice are all common things in these situations. Ditto difficulty sleeping the night before. If you find yourself thinking obsessively about the interview for days before it, unable to focus on other things so that it affects your ability to function, or if you are actually sick to the point of throwing up, or crying uncontrollably, that isn’t as common. I think that learning some tools to manage stress and nervousness could be really helpful when you’re interviewing, even if you’re only dealing with the milder forms, because it will help you be more relaxed and prepared for the interview.

    2. Jamie*

      Super nervous when I was just starting to interview and then it switched to being nervous about getting bored.

      I went from no interviews to interviewing for three positions at the same time – 2 of which were 5+ phone and in person interviews each and I was SO sick of talking about myself and hearing the same stuff about these companies.

      I would consider outside help if it’s making you unhappy and disrupting your life.

    3. CM*

      If it’s important to me, I’m good up until the night before the interview, and then I start to get kind of nervous and have trouble falling or staying asleep (and I’ll dream that I messed up finding the interview site, or that something went wrong with my clothes or whatever).

      For the hour immediately leading into the interview, I have a lot of nervous energy, I feel like my stomach’s all upset, and I sometimes take an earlier transit stop so that I have to walk a while to get there and I can burn some of that off. If I’m waiting for a call for a telephone interview, that’s much, much worse because there’s nothing for me to do but sit there, and I can’t concentrate on anything else, and I feel like a worm on a hook and I’m like, “JUST CALL ALREADY THIS IS EXCRUCIATING.”

      But, on my personal scale of 1-10 as far as how stressed/nervous/adrenaline-drunk I can get, this peaks at maybe a 6 at the most.

    4. Bibliovore*

      Crazy sick to my stomach nervous. I have sought outside help for anxiety. Truly for me being super over prepared, and practicing mindfulness and having my meditative thoughts and the word “breathe” in my notes in front of me are the only way I get through these experiences.

  162. StellBell*

    Hello all!
    What is your favourite, most useful, all around amazing swag gift you have ever got at a trade show or event? Compiling a list to start thinking about new swag, so tell me!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I got a pinwheel style highlighter once that I’m still in love with. It has all the colors in a flower like design.

      I love cute office stuff, things I can use and also toss into a “mobile office” kind of set up when necessary are fantastic. I get a lot of promo pens that have some weird crap going on there though, I don’t like the pens with weird pinlights on the top of them but one of them has a screwdriver built into the end!

    4. MoopySwarpet*

      Probably the 2 things I have received that I use the most are a retractable tape measure (if you search on Amazon, the round ones with the button in the center are what I’m talking about), a small backup battery/powerbank, jump drives, and reusable shopping bags that folds into themselves (I actually have a few I toss in other bags). The funnest were a fidget spinner pen and a magic 8 ball. I also have a measuring spoon that has 4 different sizes in one. We really like that at home, but I’m not sure how universally appealing it is. Ditto a double sided coffee scoop.

      1. MoopySwarpet*

        Also, I just realized I expanded my original useful items from 2 to 4. I remembered the jump drive and grocery bag after I wrote the rest of them.

    5. Free Meerkats*

      I got a high-quality messenger bag for speaking at a regional workshop that I’m still using every day. It was the 10th Annual workshop and this week was the 26th Annual.

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      Anywhere there’s going to be educational sessions, like at a conference, I love getting notebooks, especially if they have an attached pen. It’s not uncommon for me to forget to bring one, and this is so much better than jotting down notes on a cheesy hotel notepad.

    7. cherry limeade*

      One time I got a cute insulated lunch bag which I love and use occasionally. My other favorite items have been a fidget spinner and pens with cool designs.

    8. Acornia*

      A little zipper pouch, just big enough to hold my cell phone and some business cards, with a clear pocket for a name tag. Perfect for the conference mix and mingle when you might not want to carry your whole purse and (since you’re a woman) pockets are low in supply. I take it everywhere when I travel.

    9. Jamie*

      Smart putty. I lost my little tin of it a vendor gave me and I truly miss it. I played with that stuff every day.

    10. LawBee*

      PHONE CHARGERS. Those are worth the cost of admission on some days. I tend to plow through the vendor room with my head down (we do everything in-house, for good or for ill, so I have no need to talk to vendors) but I will absolutely spend time at a table for a good phone charger.

      One year, we randomly got one of those blankets you keep in the car in case you get caught out in a blizzard. Not very useful for my Deep South self, but a lot of people from colder climes were REALLY excited about it.

    12. Goose Lavel*

      I got a analog travel clock with a simple dial on its face to change time zones. I love the chime, it keeps accurate time and it has only needed 3 battery replacements over the past 20 years.

    13. hermit crab*

      I got a set of those RFID-blocking envelope sleeves once: a passport-sized one and a credit card-sized one. Also, chapstick/lip balm – highly useful at conferences!

    15. Bibliovore*

      Here is one that I never expected but is perfect. It is neoprene zipper pouch that is just big enough to hold my computer cord and the wall plug for my laptop. I was told by a technician that I was ruining the cord by wrapping it around the plug so now I wind the cord separately in a little two inch lariat shape and the plug separately.

    16. The New Wanderer*

      Insulated lunch bags and reusable grocery bags, can’t get enough of these. The best reusable bag has cardboard stiffeners in the sides and bottom so it folds flat but can carry quite a bit.

      The surprising one to me was a keychain. I don’t use it for personal keys but it’s perfect for my desk keys.

    17. Llellayena*

      Useful: embroidered golf towel (tea towel with a hook on it for hanging on a golf bag). I picked the company name off it and now use it as a hand towel in my kitchen.

      Cute!: Rubber duckies come with themes! I got a construction themed one with a hard hat, roll of drawings and measuring tools! It lives in my bathroom, of course!

    18. Earthwalker*

      Zippered canvas totes from Interop meant to hold all the conference paperwork. Simple, basic, but with clever designs on them. They’re so sturdy that years later they still go everywhere with me.

    19. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I have a travel tape dispenser that is supposed to look like a donut. (It’s a giveaway from a Japanese company, so I’m not sure if these are a thing in the US trade show giveaway market, but the dispenser itself is made by 3M/Scotch, so maybe.) It’s surprisingly handy to always have tape with you, and it’s a refillable dispenser so I’ve kept it a long time.

      I also like tape flags, and I’ll always take any notebook, notepad, or sticky notes that are graph paper rather than lined or blank. Multicolored highlighter things are nice, too.

  163. Would be Librarian*

    I think this is an AskAManager 101 question, I used to be a super avid reader and I think I forgot everything I learned from here before I got my current position.

    I applied for a job after a rough incident with my boss (he yelled at me, it was awful). I’m in a competitive field (libraries) and I thought hearing back from the library I applied to would be a long shot, but I now have an interview booked for early next week! I could just puke at the thought of this interview, I’m so anxious. I haven’t had a job interview in almost five years! Where do I need to begin for preparation? I feel so lost! I know there’s an AAM interview prep guide, which I think I downloaded during my last round of interviews, but what else should I do? It’s my first real interview for a librarian position after completing my MLIS too. I’m a paraprofessional right now.

    It’s also working with a demographic I have no experience with (teenagers), but I work with kids which kind of gives me an idea with what to expect. I straight up admitted that I’ve ever worked with teens in my cover letter and now I’m not sure what else to say or what to prepare! Any advice?

    1. Would be Librarian*

      One more thing, the interview is also via Skype… which gives me yet another layer of anxiety. I’ve ever had a Skype interview before either!!

    2. Bananatiel*

      I’m not in the same field but I just wanted to say that I interviewed for a new job after five years this past October and– good news– interviewing hasn’t changed that much in that time! At least, that was my experience. So have confidence that your old interview skills aren’t totally useless. They’re just as relevant as ever. The additional reading and prep you’re doing just puts you in an even better position. Good luck!

    3. Yes Anastasia*

      I’m a librarian and I practice two types of responses before interviews – a mission statement of why I want the job and would be a good fit, and typical behavioral questions like dealing with a problem patron, managing a project, overcoming a challenge, etc.

      Since you’re anxious about not having experience with teens, you should prepare a succinct explanation of how your previous experience has prepared you to work with this new age group. I’m sure you have all sorts of skills and knowledge that will transfer over.

      I got my first MLS position with no paid library experience, so you’re not unqualified by any means.

    4. Elenna*

      My usual steps for preparing for an interview are:
      – Reread the job description and make sure you know it fairly well (i.e. could explain to a friend in your own words)
      – Remember why you think you’ll be good at the job (rereading the cover letter may help)
      – Prepare answers to common interview questions (you can find lots of lists online)
      – Prepare answers to questions you’re worried about (e.g. in your case stuff about working with teens)
      – Look over the company website and make sure you know and can explain a) what they do and b) what they pride themselves on
      – Prepare questions you want to ask them, inspired by the job description, their website, or suggested questions on AAM or the Internet in general. Probably better to have more rather than less, especially if you’re meeting multiple people or some of your questions are likely to be answered earlier in the interview.
      – Relax and remember that they liked your application and want to hire you :)

    5. Bibliovore*

      First things first. Go to the library website- find out the demographics. Who are you serving? How is the collection managed? How many programs does the teen librarian do in a week? See if you suss out the expectations? Is the a former teen librarian- google their name and see what they had been up to.

      Join Yalsa.(or think about it) Review competencies for Teen librarians. Find a way to speak to each of these even if it was some kind of other work experience like retail or adult.

      Have stories ready. Adults are complaining about teen noise or behaviors. How would you, how did you manage the situation.
      How do you respond to “rule breaking” or behavior situations.

      Read a book. I am not kidding, you may be asked what you are reading. Who are your favorite YA authors- go over a few genres like speculative fiction (Akata Witch) or contemporary (Hate you give)

      What would you say to a parent who wants a book taken off the shelf?

      Have a program idea ready. Walk the space and see how they are using it now.

    6. Bibliovore*

      skype. no worries here. practice with a friend and have them tell you what they see. don’t be afraid to have bullet pointed noted in front of you out of view.

  164. Startup hell*

    I’m currently in my second situation in as many years of being at a startup that can only maintain payroll for 50%.
    Company A is now doing well enough in a certain department (adjacent to the one that I used to belong to – similar work but different customer base with much deeper pockets) that they are expanding, and have offered me a lead role, one step up from the level I was at when I departed (although I was taking on lead tasks, but companies doing poorly tend to not promote appropriately…)

    I have one or two other processes going with other companies that look like they will lead to offers that would be equally interesting to me. (Company A was fun work but I am still wary) My question is: does it look better for my work history to go back to Company A, i.e. SLIGHTLY less of a job hopper? Job hopping is pretty common in the tech startup world, but I still would *like* to look like a reliable person!

    1. Startup hell*

      Somehow some text got deleted. The first paragraph should say:

      I’m currently in my second situation in as many years of being at a startup that can only maintain payroll for 50%.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I think that if you say, “I left my previous positions after such a short time because the companies were unable to maintain payroll,” no one is going to look askance at you for job-hopping. (Tech startup people, feel free to correct me–is it expected you’ll stay on with a company that can’t pay you?)

      1. Startup hell*

        Well, I jumped ship before they stopped paying people, and the company ultimately survived. And considering doing so again, where again, it LOOKS like they might fail but they might survive, and then it looks like I left because I wasn’t feeling it rather than because I’m risk averse and quite frankly, not into that kind of work drama.

    3. Meredith*

      I honestly don’t think it matters. They’re both startups. It’s understandable. If A isn’t considered a startup anymore or you can see yourself being there longer, then great, sounds like a good fit.

      But how short a time are we talking? You said 2 in 2 years. So a year in each place? That’s not absurd in startup land. In order to move up at many tech-adjacent jobs these days, 1.5-3 years is pretty common.

      1. Startup hell*

        yeah, for some reason I can’t get the full story to stick in the comments.
        TLDR: was at company A 14 months, bailed when it looked like they would fail (along with many others), they miraculously survived. Took a job at company B who did great for about a year but the last 3-4 months have been a dumpster fire and now they might fail to make payroll in October. Have a couple of places I’m far along in interviews with, and company A is trying to hire me back without much interview fanfare.

  165. Help*

    My coworker coughs and sneezes without covering her mouth! She’s not sick, but it’s still gross. Should I say something? How do you address this without offending someone/ causing issues?

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t say that there’s a “should” here, but you could. “Hey, can you cover your mouth when you do that? I’m really prone to catching stuff. Thanks!”

      Keep in mind that they may not be super-diligent about their hand hygiene, so the result might not be what you’d hoped.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just come at it as a question, instead of a demand.

      It’s “Cindy, would you please cover your mouth when you sneeze and cough? I know that you’re not sick right now but it’s how germs are spread.” [It’s making me scream inside because that’s how carriers work, they aren’t showing signs of sickness but they still have the germs in there ready to spread and get others sick]

      It’s one of those things that you can ask kindly about and maybe talk to a boss about if they want to deal with it but yeah, there are a ton of people who don’t care. My dad never covers his and I still bite his head off about it, even after going through sickness that almost killed him and we all had to be diligent about not bringing cold viruses around him for awhile while on chemo…nah still doesn’t cover his mouth.]

  166. !*

    I had to manage a task that takes a few hours that took me away from my desk, I was able to move to a location near the task where I could log into a computer and continue working. Well, I wanted to get some lunch and could not just leave the task by itself, so I chatted my three coworkers to see who could cover for me while I go to some lunch…and…crickets. Just another example of how my coworkers truly suck. I made alternate plans (because I’m good like that) so I could take lunch but damn. I’ll remember that for the next time…I do not forgive nor forget.

  167. Resigning*

    I want to resign today to give a full two weeks’ notice*, but my boss is working from home today, and I can only contact her over Skype or email. Should I wait until Monday so I can talk to her in person, or email her?

    (Hopefully I’m not too late for this…)

    *I work a weird schedule, Friday-Tuesday, so this is my “Monday”

    1. PantaloonsOnFire*

      Can you email/Skype her to say that there’s something you’d like to discuss with her over the phone?

    2. fposte*

      Given the Friday-Tuesday schedule I’d email her today, but I think also you’d probably be okay either way; this just preserves the two week formality more clearly.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I agree to email her and ask if you could set up a phone call today. This is one of those urgent matters and if it means that you won’t be able to give a full two weeks notice otherwise, it’s better to do it that way. Especially since she’s working from home, not just at home on vacation, you know? This is work related and should be addressed ASAP.

    4. Resigning*

      Thank you all, I went ahead and shot her an email since she was set as away on Skype, then we spoke on the phone briefly. Everything went smoothly. (Yay!)

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Glad that everything went well! It usually does unless you have a dragon of a boss of course. It’s always worse in our minds. Even my jerkwad of a boss took my notice well enough [well it was a deer in the headlights and a ‘uuuuuuh okay…’ but it wasn’t a “close the door and let’s try to make a bigger deal out of this than it is” nonsense like so many people tend to worry about]

    1. MoopySwarpet*

      My partner takes them when I schedule mine, which is a little less flexible because I have other schedules to consider. For vacation, they just clear out projects in advance and push off any schedule requests as “I don’t have any availability those days, but how does [day] or [day] between [time range] work for you?”

      As for more about the “when” of it, we just schedule whenever our favorite times of year are . . . Jan/Feb in a warmer location, fall in the mountains, summer at the PacNW coast, etc. We normally schedule them to be either getting a break from the current weather/temperature or to experience the beauty of a specific area/season.

      So . . . is there a hobby you enjoy that has a peak season? Pick that. A destination you’ve always wanted to visit? Research the best time to visit. Do you have a favorite fruit/vegetable? Find where/when their harvest festivals are. (Google whatever and festival. Sweet corn, apples, peaches, strawberries, garlic, avocado, etc.)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First, do you only work for yourself or do you have employees involved?

      If it’s just you, then you do it when you can adjust your project load around it, which tends to take balancing and you have to be ready to either delay or deny work if it’s going to screw with your plans. Since if you don’t have that willingness to delay/deny, you will never find time to take time off, it will always be canceled!

      If you have employees, much easier to arrange time off since you can work with them to keep all the necessary balls rolling. Don’t do it when you’re needed, block off the time well in advance to let them know that you’re unavailable during This Time unless it’s an emergency situation, etc.

      It’s really all about prioritizing and organizing your life. It’s unfortunately not the same as when you are an employee when your involvement in the business structure and livlihood is less of an impact and if you decide in the next couple of weeks sounds good to vacation, you can probably just put in the request and everyone will deal with it one way or another. It’s all about planning ahead.

    3. Filosofickle*

      I didn’t take real vacation time for years, because i was always waiting to see what my workload / project plans looked like. Which meant I never planned anything because you never know in advance! And then I’d end up with downtime, but nothing planned and no one to go with.

      Two years ago a partner and I decided to institute “shutdowns” so we could take proper trips. We put it on the calendar 6+ months out, and that’s that. Every project / client that begins within a few months of it is aware of those dates, and the plan is built around it. We do it twice a year for 2 weeks. For us, it was a trust fall of sorts — believing the work and the clients would be there when we get back. And they have! No one has batted an eye, though we do get a few “must be nice” grumbles. If you have a team to run things while you’re gone, it doesn’t have to be a full shutdown but since it’s just us this is how we do it.

  169. Seeking Second Childhood*

    I just had a call from my husband asking if I’d taken one piece of chicken parmesan out of a lunch he packed yesterday. Nope I didn’t, I didn’t even remember to bring MY lunch today.
    Which means someone OPENED his lunch container and took out PART of his lunch. The entire protein portion of his lunch.
    People can be so rude!

    3. Xavier89*

      That’s so revolting to me

      I won’t keep lunches in the fridge at world because of people like that, I just pack lunch that will be okay in my backpack at room temp

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Turns out the thief was mortified–she thought it was leftovers from yesterday’s board meeting. Well yes it was in a takeout container, but the leftovers were in a lasagna sized tray. I guess it’s a complimentough to the chef…

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is so unshocking, I swear I’ve heard this happen to many others. Lots of just single things taken from lunch sacks over the years. Barf, what a load of craziness. There are people who PRIDE THEMSELVES on this kind of behavior as well, btw.

      I heard a radio station call-in about anon secrets about being a lunch thief. I hate them on behalf of everyone here at AAM.

      But at least this was actually an accident [just saw your other response before hitting reply, that’s something you won’t see happen again probably haha].

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I get all my business casual pants and everything else from Torrid, theyr’e still in Canada right? Or they ship to Canada and are extra stretchy goodness. The only place I can buy pants without utter terror and destruction to my big butted life.

    2. Chronic Overthinker*

      Torrid, Lane Bryant, Dress Barn. Honestly more big box retailers have been getting better about offering larger sizes. I’m petite plus so it’s even more of a challenge to fit proper fit and length. I feel your pain, but there are a lot more options than there used to be!

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I love Torrid too, but I think their shipping to Canada is probably pretty high. I’m apple shaped; if you’re hourglass shaped you might have better luck with Lane Bryant (but again, Canada).

      1. Pantsless Wonder*

        Torrid charges $48 to ship to Canada :(
        But there are 2 stores here. I like their dresses but haven’t tried their pants.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Do you know anyone in the US that can forward them for you?!

          Sigh, if this wasn’t a forum without DM options, I would totally help you “smuggle” them in, lol, wouldn’t be the first time I did it for Canadians or Australians. But perhaps you know someone in the states that can do that for you? Since they charge you so GD much because they’re jacking your rates up for their own pleasure in the long run. It costs $6 to ship to anywhere in the US and then I can forward a pair of pants for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less than $42, yuck.

          1. Pantless Wonder*

            Aww that’s sweet of you. I do have in-laws in the US, they might be willing to help.
            I think if you get to the 2nd tier of membership with them they cut the shipping in half so it’s *only* $24.

    6. Canadian Jessie*

      Additionelle is my go-to. I’m an apple (big tummy, no butt) and they have pants for different shapes. I don’t tend to find them the best quality, but – well. I don’t want to wear dresses all winter, so I make do.
      Penningtons I find seems to be more for pears. There’s a local store I like (I’m in Ottawa) but they’re super pricey.

      Usually – when I get hard-up for pants – it’s a good excuse to take a road trip to the states!

  171. Googlymooglies*

    I had been wanting to take an 8 week course in a different state next year, and it’s directly related to my work… I asked my manager about it and he told me to contact HR to see about getting an extended leave of absence. Well I finally heard back today and was told there was zero way for me to take the 8 weeks off… I’m honestly really really disappointed and upset… I don’t know what to do, my attention is shot for the rest of the day and I honestly feel like I might cry. I know this is likely related to rejection sensitive dysphoria that it’s hitting me this hard, but I had been so excited about the prospect, and I had talked to another person at work who told me he had taken a summer off a few years ago for a class…. but I guess they must’ve changed the rules since then.

    I don’t really know where I’m going with this, just… venting into the void, I guess.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      So, your manager had no problems with you taking 8 weeks off for the course, and HR said no? I think that’s worth pushing back on. Next week – right now you’re too upset. Talk to your manager. Because if they’re ok with it, then what HR thinks really shouldn’t matter. Your manager handling staffing and workloads, not HR.

      1. HMM*

        But HR DOES manage parity between teams/individuals, (sometimes) cost, and parts of staffing in an individual’s absence. Paid + benefitted 8 weeks off is a lot and depending on the company, it can be prohibitive for all sorts of reasons. Often managers think through the pieces that pertain to them and their teams, but not the bigger picture stuff.

        That’s not to say that HR was justified in saying no – there aren’t enough details to say. HR does owe an explanation of WHY they said no, but they aren’t obliged to just say yes because a manager said yes. It’s very possible that the manager said yes because he knew HR would say no and didn’t want to be the bad guy.

        Yes, push back on HR when you’re ready: “Can you tell me why my request was denied? I’d love to know more about what professional development opportunities are available to me, if this isn’t one of them.” Then negotiate from there.

        1. Googlymooglies*

          I mean, I requested the leave be unpaid. And I did reply, probably a little hastily…
          First response:
          “[Company] provides a maximum 5-day unpaid personal leave for compelling emergency situations not covered by our other time off policies. However, time off for school attendance regardless of the reason is not covered. I am sorry but that cannot be approved or overridden.”
          My reply: “I see. I have spoken to other coworkers who took extended leaves of absence for schooling in the past. Is there any recourse, under any circumstances, for an 8 week absence?”
          And the second reply was just “no there’s not”

          Probably has to do with benefits, I guess. And even if I used all sick leave and all vacation and all extra unpaid leave, that would get me to 5 weeks…

          Just. Really sad. I wish I had the stability to apply, quit when the time came, and find another job after…

          1. I'm A Little Teapot*

            Well, work on building that stability. Reduce your expenses, save up as much as you can, and then hopefully you’ll have enough of a cushion to be able to quit.

            And for the HR manages parity – not in any company I’ve worked for before. HR helped with hiring, firing, performance mgmt (all parts of it), benefits, policies, etc. But workloads, etc? Not that I’ve seen.

  172. EJane*

    This is mostly a rant, but feedback/advice is always appreciated.

    Mrs. Grandboss is a fcking lunatic.
    We’re currently in the middle of reorganizing our entire office, as we were able to lease the next-door space and expand. I’m being moved from my little private office near the front to a more communal area, which is less than ideal (I have cPTSD), but workable. Plus, I get a HUGE WHITEBOARD so it’s not a bad tradeoff.

    My boss is excellent. Impartial, logical, a critical thinker. Mrs. Grandboss is… not. Yesterday, I mentioned to my boss that I wanted to request a privacy screen as a formal accommodation. Mrs. Grandboss was walking by, so he called her over to let her know, as she handles purchasing requests.

    Somehow, I’m still not quite sure how, this turned into her airing her grievances about the cost of keeping me (her point wasn’t actually about me, as I later found out, but boyyyyy did she phrase it poorly). I shut down, she noticed, and asked me why I had gone “icy”. I, in a fit of lunacy, honestly admitted that I wasn’t angry, I was scared.

    A very long conversation ensued, in which we addressed some old problems, she explained baggage she has from previous employees (apparently a former staff member had a friend who was an employment lawyer, and he would wave that fact around like a power-play, so her reaction to me bringing up my legal rights was to expect me to be a manipulative ass about it. Cool), her own fears, a bunch of stuff that had nothing to do with me but, to be fair, did help me understand the levels of fuckery in her head, and, importantly, her telling me that she does like me and thinks I’ll do really well in the role I’m transitioning to.

    Mind you, throughout this entire conversation my hands are shaking so badly that I can barely hold a pencil, and I am covered in anxiety hives.

    A sane employer would have stopped the conversation there, or at least brought down the intensity a lot, stopped talking about their emotional baggage, and checked in. Nooooope. Conversation lasted an hour.

    The conversation had its benefits, as she’s no longer holding a bunch of resentment that had nothing to do with me, and I needed to apologize for misusing my time several months ago, but that kind of emotional conversation is one I would be fine with having with a coworker.

    Not my boss.

    I’m 90% sure she’ll use the information I shared with her to cast judgments, fair or not. She simply hasn’t demonstrated enough self-awareness NOT to.
    It seems like she sees me in terms of my disability, instead of being a person with an atypical set of strengths and weaknesses, which is really frustrating. I like this job, and she’s barely in the office so I have to deal with her maybe once a week, but god I feel anxious and uncomfortable about all this, and am not looking forward to seeing her again.

    Frankly, she appears to not realize that because she owns the business, she has power, and that affects everything she does at work.
    I’m talking to my therapist about this, don’t worry. I also recorded the conversation. I just…

    how the hell do you handle a boss with no emotional boundaries?

    1. Eva and Me*

      I am so sorry you are going through all of this, and very glad you have the support of your therapist! However, please be sure your recording of another person without their consent/knowledge isn’t illegal in your state (assuming you’re in the US, and assuming she was unaware). I can understand the reasoning behind why you might want to do this, but please be sure you aren’t crossing any legal lines.

      1. EJane*

        Oof, thank you for bringing that up. I completely forgot we’re a two-party state D: I’ll delete the recording.

  173. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    I’m currently interviewing at a PR firm for a position on their social impact team. I’ve worked in-house for my entire career…any input on agency life versus in-house? I’ve heard rumors that agency work is crazy, but looking for some real perspectives on it.

    Thanks!

    1. Meredith*

      Agencies are not known for their work-life balance, this is true, but it depends on the position and the company. There are some letters Alison has answered (one in the last month or two if I recall correctly) that delve into how to get a sense of what the work-life balance is like when interviewing.

      I will say that agency life is pretty cool. Some might think it’s more superficial than being in-house because you’re dealing with several clients vs. one company, but on the flip side, you tend to find and use emerging technologies and new strategies sooner. You also, of course, get to work with lots of different clients, some of which are really interesting and some that are boring as all get out, but at least you get to switch it up.

      1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

        Thanks! I’m nervous about that work-life stereotype, but even if it is a struggle, I figure I can make it work for awhile and then use the experience to jump to a role that’s lower-stress. It’s hard to find the truth about a company’s intensity in an interview session!

        This is helpful to hear – that’s the exact reason why I’m excited about the opportunity, it sounds like it’d give me the opportunity to work with multiple clients rather than just doing the same work over and over. From the interview, it sounds like I’d be managing two clients for the most part, so hopefully that would make it a little more consistent of a schedule as well. Fingers crossed, I guess!

  174. Amber Rose*

    Currently my title is Safety Coordinator/Order Entry.
    My proposed new title is Safety and Administration Specialist.

    Does that sound less entry level? I can still change it if I can think of something I like more, but I’m less concerned with my actual title, and more concerned with making sure I don’t have a title like a new grad would have. I’ve been here for five years, I have MANY responsibilities and hats.

    2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      Yes! I’d consider a specialist to have higher-level knowledge than a coordinator.

    3. anon for this*

      It sounds a step below to my ears, because of “Administration” which makes me think of administrative assistant. What about operations? Could you be Operations and Safety Specialist?

  175. Gene Parmesan*

    Where do you find office decor/design inspo? When I look on pinterest, the results are either home offices or really high tech, modern professional offices. I work for a nonprofit. The building and furnishings are OLD. Anyone have any treasure troves that they use for inspiration for decorating normal, boring offices?

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      Maybe you could look at office furniture websites/catalogs. They often have photos of how everything looks together. Ditto corporate plants. Or even just google images.

      If you want to create your own posters for framing, I highly recommend posterbrain. Not really for inspiration, but once you find some. ;)

    3. Auntie Social*

      Some of our furnishings were generic—conf table that seats 14—so that had to come first. Then black leather sofa, and arm chairs in a print. It’s a law office so there had to be two seating areas in the lobby, and two conference rooms. We found an Asian accent table at Target, then some Asian prints that went well throughout the office so we got lots of those, and a large bamboo mirror for the entry. We had a whiteboard for the conference room in a wall cabinet and put a screen on the front so it looks like art. Then accent pieces—large bowl with two painted koi, one large statement piece for each public room. We did it on a tight budget. Much of the furniture is either from an office furn warehouse or from Macy’s. The building shows our office to prospective tenants! (And we chose Asian because we HATE contemporary).

  176. YRH*

    Any tips for proofreading your own work? It’s one of my bigger weaknesses. I’m much better at proofing other people’s work.

    1. Introvert girl*

      I do a lot of proofreading as I work in translations. When it concerns big cases, I usually wait until the next day. A good night’s sleep helps a lot. And then I do the proofreading early in the morning. If it needs to be proofread the same day, I first do something completely different than that subject (also work-related) or go out for a walk or just to the shop outside for a juice). That way I come back with a clear mind.

    2. Psyche*

      The thing that helps me the most is to wait a day to proofread. If I try to proofread shortly after writing something it is still too fresh and my brain subs in what I was trying to write instead of what I did write.

    4. Elenna*

      I’ve seen suggestions to read it backwards or aloud. Those are probably more useful for shorter pieces of work, so it’ll depend on what you’re doing.

      And yeah, take a break before proofreading if possible.

      1. Elenna*

        I just posted this and then realized I completely miswrote something in my question below… *dies* To be fair, I don’t usually go to quite as much effort to proofread an advice column comment :D

    5. fposte*

      In addition to what people have said, change formats. Screen and print read differently; different fonts read differently; different margins read differently because of what they do to line breaks.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I use a highlighter usually. So yes, that requires printing things out. Then I can read it, highlight as I read it and things tend to pop out at me better that way.

      I also will proof read something only after I have “reset” my mind. So I write up a document. Put it to the side and do something else for twenty minutes. Go back to the document with re-freshened eyes and read it.

      1. Jamie*

        Co-sign the coming back to it after resetting your brain. For me it’s even better if I completely shift gears and do something completely unrelated like math or something physical.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yes! I’m usually proof reading numbers more frequently than documents. So I will switch gears completely out of the numbers-sphere because I get the numbers-dyslexia issues more than anything else [There’s a name for that and I cannot remember it ever, argh].

    9. shortlibrarian*

      Change the font, size and add columns to your work if you’re just proofreading for content, spelling and grammar. You want to change it visually so that you look at it with fresh perspective.

  177. Introvert girl*

    I have the feeling that more and more companies have absolutely no clue how much a specific function is worth. A couple of weeks ago I interviewed with a company to do translations in the legal teapot business. All went well, even the three tests. But the following week I received a proposition of 1/4 of what I was expecting for that position (= the market value). This has happened multiple times and with really famous companies. I know everyone wants it as cheap as possible, but there are limits.

    1. sacados*

      Cheap, fast, and good.
      You can only ever have two out of those three things at a time. Funny how often people seem to forget that… *sigh*

  178. Lawyers Wanted*

    I have a dear friend who is a lawyer with several years experience who is having trouble getting work after a layoff, and I’m looking for advice from those in the field about what is normal, and what her expectations should reasonably be.

    I don’t have any direct experience working with her (college roommate), but I’ve always known her to be dedicated, driven, organized, and efficient.

    I think she’s got the less-than-stellar pedigree of her law school working against her, plus a work history that has a few 2-3 year tenures on it (which I understand to be atypical in the field?). Also, she’s female and perceives a good old boys network to be working against her, as she’s relocate to a different region of the country (trailing spouse). She’s been out of work for several months at this point, following a downsizing. Getting interviews, making it to 2nd and 3rd rounds, but not getting offers.

    So- what’s normal? I have heard the legal market is tough, but IDK what that looks like in concrete terms. She’s really dejected and has been wondering whether gainful legal employment is in the cards for her. What would you do?

    1. CatCat*

      The last couple times I have switched employers, it took me about 6 months to find something new. You friend is making it to final round interviews so it sounds like she is probably a competitive candidate. I think she just needs to keep doing what she is doing. Also, if there are local bar associations, particularly those in her area of law and dedicated to women, or a local alums of her school, she can use those groups meet people her her new geographic area and get advice on the local landscape.

      Alison’s post earlier in the week about getting rejected from jobs may be helpful for your friend to read. I think in particular, “…sometimes rejections are really just about math. Since employers get more qualified candidates than they can hire, very often rejection isn’t a measure of your worth at all.”

  179. ZS*

    I commented a couple months ago about working in non-profits on fundraising teams and not feeling valued as a team member with a low salary and non-existent professional development. I’d been at that place for two years and I decided to take the plunge to search after a couple helpful comments. Low and behold very quickly I had an interview at a state funded foundation for a “Manager” level position and got the job within a week. I just started the new job this week! Many thanks to those who commented – I’m enjoying all the benefits of a state position and using Alison’s advice I got a 33% pay raise via negotiations in the hiring process. Thanks AAM!

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      That’s so great! What is the new field? I’m thinking about making a transition away from frontline fundraising so I’m always interested to hear where people go next :)

      1. ZS*

        I was previously doing a combination of corporate fundraising, annual fund, and database work. I have zero training on frontline fundraising and my skill set is technical (by personal training, not degree), so I transitioned to a data and prospect research position. Who knew you could earn more money and have better resources by moving away from the positions that ask others for money!!

  180. Follow Up ???*

    Emailed a cover letter & resume for a job I think I would be a great fit – got a really quick response from ghe hiring manager saying they would follow up with the next steps after the weekend – this was exactly 2 weeks ago – I followed up that following week but nothing – I have stayed with my job search so I am not putting all my eggs in this basket so want to follow up. Any wording advice on a follow up?

    2. EA in CA*

      I wouldn’t follow up again and just move on. They stated that they will reach out to you with next steps, but haven’t yet, so the ball is entirely in their court. There could be a lot of reasons why they haven’t reached out yet, hiring manager is on holidays, they are still gathering candidates to interview, aspects of the role has changed and they need to re-evaluate. You’ve followed up once already and that is enough.

  181. Elenna*

    Is it a red flag if the “you’ve been selected for an interview” email is sent fairly late (i.e. around 9 pm)? Like, I’m not sure if I should be worried about whether people there typically work that late or not.

    On a related note, what’s a good phrasing to ask “how’s your work-life balance” in an email? Because I don’t want to make it sound like I’m not willing to work late ever – I am, I just don’t want to work somewhere where it’s always 60-hour weeks.
    (The job in question is an entry-level office job in a large financial/banking institution)

    1. MoopySwarpet*

      I think it would depend on the company, but if the person sending the interview email is not a full time hiring manager/HR, it could just be that they remembered late that they needed to get that email out or that they are actually working that late because this isn’t normally part of their every day process.

      I don’t think I’d ask about work/life in an email, but definitely address it in the interview.

      1. Elenna*

        Whoops, don’t know why I said “in an email” there, I meant in the interview! Any suggestions for phrasing in the interview?

        1. MoopySwarpet*

          I’d probably ask something about what your normal expected hours are, how often overtime is required, how flexible he schedule is (for appointments), etc. I think those kinds of questions will probably get to what you really want to know. Maybe ask what a typical week/day looks like or if there is a “busy season.”

          I don’t know if I would be “brave” enough to ask this or how I would feel about being asked this, but if the person who sent you the email is one of your interviewers, you could maybe ask about the time of the email specifically. Something like “I noticed you sent this email at 9pm. Are these hours pretty standard for the company?” I think I would probably answer if I were the interviewer.

          In thinking further, it is a fair question to ask (the work/life balance) because unless it was something that was going to be needed before I arrived in the morning, I wouldn’t likely send something so late unless I’m used to working that late. On the other hand, if I forgot to hit send and was going to be out the next day, I would log in and send regardless of the time so I didn’t forget again.

          1. Elenna*

            He was definitely in the next day (I got the email last night, sent a response this morning, and got a reply a few hours later) but interviews start on Monday, so thinking about it, maybe he wanted to make sure I had a full day to reply?

            Mind you, the fact that he sent an email Thursday evening about interview slots starting next Monday seems a bit sketchy in itself, but if he’s pretty busy I could see him suddenly realizing “oh crud, I never sent that email out” and doing it quickly from home.

            I should probably stop trying to read the tea leaves on this and just ask at the interview, honestly.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think it would be okay to say “I noticed you/Fergus emailed me around 9 pm! Is it pretty busy around here?”

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So you’re actually asking about the red flag for “Can you meet us at 9pm?” for the interview, am I reading correctly?

      Orange flag to me at best.

      Only because I know people who hire very infrequently and they’re busy beavers, but they’re not overworked nor are any of us who work here. But it works best for what they do, to try to get things that are “out of the norm” done outside of “regular” hours. Does that make sense?

      So they’re usually just working 40-45 hours a week but given their duties, they need to be available to do them during those shop-hours times. So it’s much easier to make interviews outside that time frame if possible.

      Or it could be that they are only slammed at the moment and that’s why they’re hiring! It’s not a full-time nonstop thing.

      I would ask them about a “typical work day” and the “typical work hours” to see what they have to say. And literally you can very much just be forward about “I value work life balance very much, is there much OT or off hour work that happens? I’m happy to do it once in awhile of course but if it’s frequently, that wouldn’t be an ideal match for me.”

      This is a two way street. If they do have obscure obscene hours, let them know right up front it’s not what you want. Unless you’re desperate for any job, any hours, it won’t hurt you to not get a job if their needs don’t match yours!

      2. Elenna*

        Yeah, what Rusty said – they sent the email at 9 pm, the interview slots are normal working hours. Regardless, thanks for the scripts!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh yeah, that’s not a flag at all.

          They could have flexed their time and are working from home late since they had doctor stuff that morning or kids had a play they wanted to attend.

          My boss used to check emails when he was at home because it was more acceptable to drink a beer and sit by his pool, which then lead to scrolling on his phone LOL. I wouldn’t really think too much of it.

          1. irene adler*

            Could it be a time zone thing? Depending upon the size of the company, they could have some departments located in a different time zone. That could explain a 9 pm email.

            I’ve applied to local companies (west coast) who have HR folks who work remotely- in the Midwest and back east.

        2. Mellow*

          People send emails at 9 pm for as many reasons as there are people. I was out ill last week and sent my boss an email an hour ago to let him know I’d be in tomorrow. Doesn’t mean I work Sunday nights.

          I feel like you’re setting yourself up to read something into every little thing from your interviewers/company. What’s going to happen when they don’t contact you a week after you interview? You’ll be driving yourself bananas way over-analyzing every little thing to try to figure out why.

          Try to stay big picture here.

  182. ainnnymouse*

    This week I got a call at night for a store I interviewed for a month ago. I thought they just ghosted me and moved on. Because during the interview I had in in early August the manager said she needed somebody for Labor Day. I did go to the interview this week. They claimed it was a “second interview”. I think this is not a “second interview” they just needed a person because somebody left for some reason. Should I be a bit weary?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Eh, it’s retail, right? I’m sure you’re correct about what happened, but if you’d have gone on another interview if they’d told you the truth, you might as well go now.

  183. SheepsBeeps*

    It’s been a week and I can’t see myself in this new position any longer. I talked to my manager and he asked me to stay for another 1-2 weeks – I decided to stay till then since he’s been very kind about the whole thing.

    How should I go ahead with the job hunt though? Do I keep this job off the resume and try to explain the situation to interviewers?

    1. Chronic Overthinker*

      Experience is experience and you can explain that though you valued your time there, the position didn’t mesh with your career goals. You can always transfer skills from one job to another and one career to another. I’ve been in retail nearly all my work life and just recently got into the administrative/legal field. Skills are transferable and experience can be the difference from a interview to a job offer.

      1. SheepsBeeps*

        If I keep it off and get an interview offer during my short time there, how do I explain it to the interviewer? “I’m still working at Teapot Inc but will be leaving in a week. I didn’t mention it in my resume due to the short term”?

    3. WellRed*

      Have you only been there a week? If so, no you absolutely cannot put this on your resume. You’ll have gained zero experience and will look like a possible problem employee.

      1. SheepsBeeps*

        That’s what I think as well. So should I wait until I’m officially done with the position and then start applying to jobs? Or can I apply now (while still in this new job that I will be leaving in 1-2 weeks) and lie about being employed right now?

        1. WellRed*

          Start looking. If you get called for an interview arrange for time off. What are they gonna do, fire you?

  184. Aphrodite*

    I’m not sure if this is more suited for today or the weekend but since it concerns work–sort of–I’ll put it here.

    I have a tiny refrigerator in my office that I got off Craigslist for $25. It has never been a superstar worker but okay. However, in the last couple of months I noticed that it wasn’t always cold. It never stopped working but it definitely slacked off. Thankfully, I had taken note of that and didn’t keep any dairy or meat in it but still, not a good thing.

    So I have been looking online at mini fridges–reading reviews, studying the interior layouts–and finally settled about a month ago on this Magic Chef one that doesn’t have a freezer: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Magic-Chef-4-4-cu-ft-Mini-Fridge-with-Freezerless-Design-in-Stainless-Steel-HMAR440ST/207169805?cm_mmc=ecc-_-THD_SHIP_CONFIRMATION-_-20190913_THD_SHIP_CONFIRMATION-_-Product_URL__W842189394withTHD

    Yay, no defrosting and more refrigerator space. Since I don’t drink soft drinks that part has always annoyed me but I have decided that I am getting canning-type glass jars the diameter of soft drink cans (and maybe shorter) and keeping condiments like mustard, mayonnaise and maybe vegetable juice in them instead. I enjoy cold milk so I am thrilled the door holds two gallons of it, if desired. I ordered it last night and it will be shipped to the office and arrive on Monday.

    The two guys on the facilities team here are more than happy to dispose of the old one and install the new one. (I have done a lot of favors for them just because they are nice and I guess that helps.) This is one Monday to which I am looking forward with great anticipation!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yay! I’m moving into a new space that’s farther from the communal fridge (boo) but it means I have an excuse to bring a mini fridge (yay). Looking forward to keeping condiments in my office!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m glad they can dispose of it for you! That’s actually really huge, a lot of places wouldn’t because disposing of fridges cost money and also aren’t just as simple as dumping them in a dumpster =(

      1. Jamie*

        In my state com ed will come and buy your old fridge and give you $50 for it whether it works or not.

        I found that out after I moved to a new house taking an old, defunct fridge with me.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yeah…they used to offer rebates on the suckers and had a program through the power company.

          Then they were like “naaaaaaaaah suckaaaaaa, suffffffffffa!” they just list a bunch of junkers to call to dispose of it for you. Or you can haul it and pay for that cheaper-ish disposal if you’re able to.

          I have an Office Electronics/Appliance graveyard. We pile it up because it’s cheaper to junk it in mass instead of one by one, naturally. Sigh.

  185. BAM*

    How can my department convince Boss to let our department participate in the company work from home program?

    My company has recently expanded their work from home policy and we’d like to participate. Previously it was only allowed one day per week and only with supervisor approval. They just announced that these restrictions have been lifted – so work from home is allowed any day and for multiple days. Boss did not allow us to work from home under the old policy but now that the policy has been expanded and sold as an overall benefit to working for the company we’d like for her to reconsider. Participation in the work from home program among other departments is high, we are one of about 3 hold outs left.

    Boss had been with the company for just under a year so it’s possible the reluctance before was due to getting to know the team and our dynamics. (We were never told the specific reason why we have not been able to participate.) The primary communication method used by Boss is IM or email, there is not much (if any) face to face interaction on a normal daily basis. Boss works from home on occasion. It’s not common knowledge but we do have one team member who performs at a lower level than the rest. This person’s deadlines are still met and work is adequate. I do know some of the reluctance for work from home was due to this individual possibly slacking but the entire team should not be “punished” for one individual.

    What are some arguments/points/proof we could bring up to help our case? What is some good language to use? Right now it feels like our case is weak – “well everyone else does it”. The underperformer can’t be addressed since it is not common knowledge. And it feels rude and petulant to say “well you do it and besides you never talk to us anyways” as part of this discussion. As a team we would be happy with being allowed to participate in any way possible – a quarterly allowance system or under the old rules. Just anything to make in an option since the company as a whole appears to be encouraging it.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I don’t have the answers as I am currently going through this myself! Just sympathy.

    2. A. D. Kay*

      Try framing it as working remotely, instead of working from home. To people like your boss, “working from home” has connotations of employees who watch soap operas and surf the web when they are supposed to be productive. Saying you want to work remotely helps remove some of that undeserved stigma.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I think that’s what’s going on in my org – there are a handful of new policies, one of which is flexible schedules and one is WFH. In meetings about it my boss keeps conflating “Fridays off” (via flexible schedule) with “Fridays WFH”. Methinks the verbal mixup is due to a mental block that they’re the same thing.

  186. ThisIshRightHere*

    My team is in transition and I only have one direct-report at the moment. The only way I’m allowed to take leave is if he is here to cover. He has asked me for the week of Christmas off so he can travel with family, whereas I was planning to take the week off to host friends visiting from abroad. We can’t both take leave that week, and it’s ultimately my decision who gets to go. How should I decide who wins out?

    I should note that I never take Christmas (or any holiday) off because I don’t celebrate it. My team has come to take that for granted and may feel a way if I suddenly throw a wrench in their holiday plans.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Well, he can’t travel if he’s at work, but you can still host friends if you’re at work. Not as well as you’d like to, but still.

      On the other hand, you never take holidays off, so you’re certainly due.

      I don’t think there’s a clear answer here.

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        True. This may just be my insensitivity due to the fact that Christmas is just another day to me, but he can also travel with his family the following week. Or the previous one. My time off plans are based on the already-established travel plans of my friends. His plans are based only on his preference (his child is in preschool and his wife doesn’t work).

        1. CatCat*

          If you know his travel dates may be flexible, why not ask about that? The week after or maybe splitting the week-of might be doable.

          1. ThisIshRightHere*

            He hasn’t mentioned being open to traveling a different week. I think it’s more of a thing where they want to travel “for Christmas,” and doing so a week earlier or later wouldn’t have the same emotional feel to it although the tangible difference is minimal. Christmas falling in the middle of the week makes it hard this year. Last year, the difference would have been easier to split

            1. Banana Bread Breakfast*

              If it has an emotional significance to them, but not to you, the obvious answer to me seems to be deferring to letting them travel. Especially because as stated above, working totally kaboshes their plans but not yours.

              The tangible difference is not minimal if it’s an emotionally significant date for them, regardless of is the reason for the significance is religious, cultural, or personal.

              1. valentine*

                Because you have the power, let him have the week. You take it next year. (Get it on the books before he makes his request.) You can also choose a less coveted time of year so you don’t have this problem.

                Don’t assign weight or value to things for him (family schedules, his Xmas travel doesn’t have to include Xmas).

            2. Colette*

              Is he travelling to a destination where more family is, or to a destination where he knows no one?
              Is there a religious component to his travel?

              If he’s traveling to meet with family, asking him to change it is a much bigger deal. (I know if I shown up at my mom’s the week after Christmas, I will see her but the extended family will have gone back home.) That doesn’t mean you can’t ask him to switch it, but it may not be as easy as “he can travel anytime”.
              Can you split the week, so he gets M-W and you get the rest of the week (or vice versa)?

              I think this is really a situation here the two of you have to work together to find a solution.

              1. ThisIshRightHere*

                He is not traveling to see more family. He and his wife are thinking of driving down to spend the week at a resort they’ve been to before. I’m not aware of a religious purpose for the trip except that it’s a religious holiday they’ll be celebrating.

                I’m going to think more about how to split the week. As a manager, I have a habit of deferring to everyone’s leave plans because I don’t want to be accused of being unfair. But in out organization, seniority usually wins out.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          Oh, I thought “family” meant extended family, who might be in school or employed at places that close that week. In that case, I’d say you’ve decided to *finally* take that week off due to friends visiting from abroad.

          Honestly, I don’t think “who deserves it more” should even come into the discussion. Like I said, you’re due. But I know it’s hard when you’re the one who has to make the decision, and want to be fair.

    2. WellRed*

      So what would your company do if he had time off and you got hit by a bus? Is there any way you could take a couple days off that week?

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        If there were an emergency, they would: (1) call him to come in from wherever he was, (2) expect him to work remotely if that weren’t possible, or (3) they’d manage without either of us but seriously side-eye him for not being sufficiently available to tend to the emergency.

        Obviously, my job is not great about supporting our work/life balance, lol. We already get Christmas and boxing (Wednesday and Thursday) day off. I was thinking we might be able to split the difference somehow, but I’m not seeing it yet.

        1. Koala dreams*

          So if you split it you would both need to work only one and a half day that week? That sounds great, actually! Hope you find a good solution!

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      Could you work from home while your guests are in town or work half days or something? I sometimes host out of towners for a week and if there is a conflict, I’ll volunteer to be “on call” if something urgent comes up.

      How busy are you during that week? I know you’ve said you can’t both be off, but I wonder how true that is in reality. For example, in our company, we do have positions that “can’t” be out at the same time, but during the week of Christmas we’d make it work.

      Alternatively, can one or the other of you shift travel plans to minimize the overlap? If either your friends or his family haven’t actually made plans, yet, maybe your friends could shift their plans forward 3 days and he could shift theirs back 3 days.

      1. MoopySwarpet*

        I just saw your response that your friends have already made their plans. I’d probably ask him to shift his travel plans if you truly can’t have any overlapping days out.

      2. ThisIshRightHere*

        Working from home could be an option. We don’t have a specific policy that supports it, but it has been granted in the past when someone makes a good case. I don’t plan on being super busy that week. But I said the same last week and two super-crazy unrelated emergencies popped up Christmas weekend. At that time, I had a robust staff but everyone except me was furloughed. That was actually the catalyst for the “coverage at all times” policy.

    4. Koala dreams*

      You can split it half-half. That way he has some time with his family, and you have some time with your friends. If his family is his school-age kids, it’s also possible he is willing to shift the week to another week that’s also school vacation (if schools have two week vacation for Christmas where you live, or if there is some other highly valued school holiday week soon).

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So did he ask for Christmas off before you booked that time off? That’s where I’m landing on this.

      If you didn’t already put it on the calendar as soon as you confirmed your guests, so it’s still “unknown”, then he asks “hey Christmas week off?” only to hear “oh actually I’m planning on taking that off…” it’s kind of unfair. It’s usually about “who calls dibs first” when it comes to being out of the office.

      It’s not his fault you’re understaffed and yeah maybe it’s frowned upon by the organization but that’s on them to adjust their corporate feelings. If it means that he gets nowhere far in the company, that’s just the fallout that he has to deal with at some time.

      Striking up a deal sounds like a good choice as well.

      Just because you don’t celebrate Christmas, you should put that to the side. I don’t either. I skipped it for years and only go home now because my dad had health issues and I know that he actually does like the stupid holiday, so fine blah I’ll try to make it happen.

      But these kinds of things do matter to families. I would reframe this in your mind, dont’ think of it as “Bah humbug Christmas.” what would you do if this was another Non-Christian holiday he wanted to travel to be with his family for but you had plans for? Would you be as callous or would you think that you had to honor diversity and his religious holiday because it’s of very important standing to him? I feel like this is falling into the dislike and disinterest in a commercialized Christian faith based holiday that we’ve all seen drug through the mud over the years. I’m pro-War on Christmas to a point but there’s a line here. Don’t shove it down my throat, don’t make me celebrate it or whatever but you do you, it’s important to you and your family, that’s great, I’ll help you to enjoy that sentimental time by just working the holiday.

    6. Kathenus*

      You’re the supervisor, but with just two of you, I’d have a discussion with him more as equals on this. Set up a process, probably either rotation, splitting the period, or some combination of these. That way it’s not a year to year free for all litigating how to do it, you both know that he has 2019 and you have 2020 off, or whatever you work out. I work somewhere where 365 day/year coverage is required, and while we let off as many people as possible on/around major holidays, some people have to work. We try to make sure that we rotate who gets to be off, so that it’s as fair as possible and we have a transparent process for how and when we decide this for the year.

  187. ACDC*

    Question about dealing with people who take their calls on speakerphone…. 3 weeks ago my company switched to an open office plan in which only C-level employees have offices. Previously about half of employees had offices and half were in an open area. In our new space, I sit pretty close to one of our VPs (different department than mine though) and she takes ALL of her calls on speakerphone. I know everything about her life now (personal and professional) it seems. I assume she’s used to having an office and never thought of how this habit might not translate well into an open plan, but it’s incredibly irritating. I put headphones on, but I can still hear her calls (that’s how close she is to me, and how loud her volume is).

    Can I realistically deal with this given that she is the VP of a different department, and I am many rungs away from being a peer in any fashion?

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      I think you could ask nicely, just mention that in the cube it’s hard to concentrate when you can hear both sides of everyone’s calls and that you wonder if she’d mind using a headset.

  188. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I realized while doing this last round of hiring using Indeed that their platform that allows you to use their email system, that I can still see if your email address is a funky quirky one [PrettyKitten69] style email addresses. Just so y’all don’t know that’s a thing and have been using outdated unprofessional setups for email addresses through job listing sites and thinking that they don’t know your personal email given the “privacy protection” some folks think of that as.

    I don’t think that any of the regular posters here would need this PSA but I’m still laughing at the last one we got because it reminded me of a early 2000’s Simple Plan song. It didn’t detour us from talking to the person but yeah, that’s still a funky first impression regardless]

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      A friend of mine who has been working long enough to definitely know better has just now finally gotten a generic firstnamelastname@domain style email address. She was applying with a PrettyKitten69 style email and often complained that she wasn’t getting positive responses. Well…ya won’t listen to advice, so I don’t know what to tell you.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I went into a store awhile back and my rewards card was actually under my original Earthlink email from 2000, then I cringed because I had to use that for when I first started working LOL but at least it was 2000 FFS!

    2. voyager1*

      Look PrettyKitten69, is just a nice lady who likes kittens and has 69 of them. I mean she needs a job too, think of all that cat food she has to buy.

      :)

    3. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      Is it possible to universally change one’s e-mail without having to abandon the original account? My primary e-mail is a Yahoo account with a silly name, but I created it in 2000.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Like you just want to rename that account and keep the inbox itself since it’s probably got all your saved stuff?

        I don’t know sadly, I get the feeling you can’t because it’s a free server. You may be able to reach out to Yahoo! support and ask them if that’s a thing that can happen. Since there are forms out there where you sign up and can adjust your username all the time, so it’s not like the technology isn’t available but it would depend on the platform and if it’s able to do it.

      2. CAA*

        I still have a really old email address from before Google existed. Mine’s not silly or unprofessional, but I don’t want to look like I’m behind the times and I also don’t want to give it up because it’s still known to some people and companies. So, what I do is use a modern gmail address and set it up to automatically check the old account every so often. You can do this in gmail’s settings. I also have Gmail tag anything it grabs from the old inbox so I can quickly see that’s where it came from and decide what I want to do with it. Sometimes I go to the trouble of updating my info, sometimes I don’t. When I reply or create a new message, it comes from my new address.

  189. Chronic Overthinker*

    Kind of a strange question but, I need some input. NewJob only offers health insurance. Dental and vision, I am on my own. I know I need work done beyond “basic” cleaning/care. Most policies I see only offer benefits eligibility for the “above and beyond basic” stuff after six months on their plans. I cannot wait that long. Has anyone had luck using dental savings plans or just going to a dentist sans insurance and creating a payment plan?

    1. CatCat*

      When I did not have insurance, my dentist did the work I needed for the amount he would have gotten from insurance if I had been insured. So something like that may be an option for you. Do you have an FSA or an HSA? That may be another way to help save on the cost since you can use pre-tax dollars.

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        That’s interesting. I’ve never heard of that. But it makes sense because I’m sure it saved both of you tons of money and hassle!

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      Call around different dentists and see what they can do to work with you. My dentist has a “membership” that is $50 per year and includes 2 exams and something like 20% off cleanings and other dental work.

      I had a previous dentist that knew I didn’t have insurance and deeply discounted stuff.

      Also, if you have American Express, they have a “plan it” feature where transactions that are more than $100 can be planned out to make payments for 3-12 months for quite a bit less than what the interest would be. On that note, if you have decent credit, you could apply for a card that has a 0% interest for xx months card to use.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ask your local dentists about their payment structure. Many work with different “plans” out there. I paid like whatever the membership fee was and then all work was done at 50% the regular cost. Basically their “Membership” gives you the rates they give insurance carriers when they bill out to them at their discounted rates. It was what I had to do years ago when I needed a crown, it dropped it from over a thousand dollars to like $700, plus a payment plan, no interest, they were happy to drag it out for 6-12 months.

      They also have sliding scales often and payment plans!

    4. irene adler*

      Some dentists take the CareCredit Card which offers zero interest for 6-24 months (depending upon your credit score). Worth asking the dentist about.

  190. Confused newbie*

    I posted this q to Allison and she responded, but I’d like you guys’ input as well!

    I’ve recently completed a summer internship working for a company in an industry I’d never thought about being in. I’ve had other internships before, but this one was way weirder than anything previous. Examples include:

    * A bar in the office, and tons of alcohol at all company events. They were also cool with the underage interns drinking with everyone else. ( I don’t drink, so maybe I’m just being a prude here and making a bigger deal out of this.)

    * All the male interns and hires straight out of college would be warned that one of their colleagues ( a 50+ yr old woman) would make a pass at them. I don’t think anyone reported her.

    * that same woman also told me that she had multiple boyfriends on the first day I met her.

    * The men in the office between the ages of 25-32 would openly make sexually explicit comments about their female clients.

    * Someone made fun of an Asian accent in front of an Asian-American client. Someone else made fun of an Asian accent in front of our entire office ( I was also the only person of color in the entire office)

    * there wasn’t an HR person in our office location despite there being at least 40 people there.

    * They were very reluctant to fire people. They emphasized employees being like a family, which was not at all like my previous experiences.

    There are other things, but these stand out to me the most. I didn’t get an offer to extend my employment for the company, which I think is for the best. However, I’m about to graduate college soon and am looking for a full time job. I’m getting a lot of emails from recruiters in the same industry as the company I interned for, and I’m wondering if the previous workplace behaviors are something I’ll just have to tolerate if I want to work in that field. I don’t think that environment is very healthy for someone like me, but there are aspects of the industry I really like, and it’s hard to find a decent paying job for my major. Should I just toughen up?

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      Whaaaaaaaaaaat?? This is all so over-the-top I literally don’t know where to begin.

      These are clearly not work norms. However, to your specific question, it’s impossible to know whether it is typical for industry X without knowing what industry X is. But I’d say overall, that place sounds like an outlier.

      I will add that I am personally not offended by the idea of alcohol at company events, or even in the office. But allowing underage interns to drink is not only dangerous and unethical, it is illegal.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Yeah regarding the alcohol, that’s actually pretty normal in a lot of industries to have access to booze. It’s also not so abnormal to not pay attention to everyone’s age. I honestly have had people forget my age when I was under age and offer me drinks out of being nice, not out of “you’re young, let’s doooooooooooo this law breaking thing!”

        They should be more mindful but given their age skews to the drinking age with a smattering of interns, it’s easy to overlook and most places aren’t that tight about policing who’s drinking if you’re acting appropriately.

        But if they’re readily calling it out like “oh Nancy and Paul, get over here, yeah I know I know you’re only 19, these are our interns guys! We’re gonna get them cruuuuuuuuuuuunk!” that’s another snapshot of awful business life choices right there for sure.

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          I would say that offering alcohol to underage people is itself a snapshot of awful business life choices right there.

          Just like sexual and racial harassment, giving alcohol to someone you shouldn’t can get you sued — dram shop laws and the like.

          At least in the US, we’ve had 21-to-drink laws for about a third of a century now. And for good reason: Combating drunk driving and thus saving life and limb on the highway.

          I don’t know how you define smattering, but the exact proportion of underage people doesn’t matter. Unless literally everyone else there is literally guaranteed to be of drinking age, you need to check everyone’s age before giving them alcohol.

          Otherwise you act at your peril — both legal and moral. “Carding” has been long been woven into American culture, so I’d look askance at someone who gave alcohol to minors just as much as I’d look askance at, say, sexually explicit comments or making fun of accents.

          You may be right in that in certain industries this kind of neglect is normal, just like in certain industries sexual and racial harassment is distressingly normal. They shouldn’t be.

          Too complicated to card everyone? Fine, let’s make it a lot simpler: No alcohol at company functions.

        2. Natalia*

          I’m no prude, but I don’t think it’s professional or appropriate for a business to let underage people drink alcohol. I get that some things fly under the radar…but they shouldn’t be offering it to them and they shouldn’t be encouraging it. They could get into a lot of legal trouble….

      2. Confused newbie*

        This was a Construction company. I’m glad im getting shocked reactions, because over time I was starting to think I was just being difficult/ crazy. I don’t mind people drinking at work or work events, but I don’t want to feel like an outcast because everyone wants to hang out and get wasted constantly off the clock. I’d like to have a life outside of the workplace. Also I was constantly on edge as a woman of color.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This does happen but this is not normal, you shouldn’t expect to see this behavior industry wide. This place is a huge old sexual harassment settlement walking, yikes!

      I mean there are still places that act like frigging extensions of fraternities in ways but yeah, not to this extent.

      This sounds like a really bad sitcom about the Bro’s R US gang.

      1. Confused newbie*

        This is a construction company. And a lot of them were from fraternities lol. The further removed I am from working there, the more I realize how insane it was. I just wonder if the construction industry in general is like this. Does anyone here have experience working in Construction?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh gurl. Construction, my heart.

          Yeah it’s more relaxed in some senses but I come from a segment of that industry. We would fry someone alive if they talked about clients crudely or were so outlandishly sexist/sexual harassment.

          It’s more horseplaying and chugging beer after hours but yeah not the other grossest stuff.

          1. Confused newbie*

            Oh thats really good to hear, lol. I think a lot of the problems I dealt with stem from nearly zero management being present at the office ( The company has a massive project right now so they’re usually on the jobsite). But also management is super lax anyway so who knows if that would change anything. I was on edge during that whole summer for fear of being the target of racism/ sexual harassment. I wasn’t, thankfully, but I seriously thought about whether or not I would punch an offender if a situation arose. Thats when I knew this job was making me crazy.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Heads up from a grouchy woman who doesn’t play with untamed unwashed rodents like this. Even if you’re not “targeted”, you are able to claim a hostile work environment or put in a complaint with the EEOC about it. If you are subjected to sexual stuff in the air at your work, like them talking about among themselves while you hear it, that is illegal and you could dig in for a settlement without them actually turning it on you specifically.

              It’s probably not worth it since you’re free of that nonsense and it’s hard on the soul to go that route but some people want that vindication and I support it if they crave it. Usually I’m the sort to just leave and then throw out some letters to the appropriate governing bodies, more than actually going for the blood of getting a lawyer of my own and going that route. But others have fought the fight and won or at least got the place shaken up enough that it was worth it to them.

  191. ItsABirdItsAPlaneItsAnxietyMan*

    Mostly came here to vent, but also to let other people whose mental health is suffering from work know they’re not alone:

    My health (mental and physical) has suffered because of my toxic work environment and after a breakdown and getting physically ill a few months back, I made the choice to apply to another job within the company but would be a different department. I thought I had it in the bag, but I didn’t get it and received one of those awful brusque automatic HR emails. This was the final straw, so I’ve decided to stick it out until the end of the year to save some more money before I turn in my notice and leave this company for good. Today really solidified my decision for me, as my supervisor basically asked me to ramp up my production and output, despite me already working at max capacity and she is unwilling to hire more people to help me with my role. (Basically, they want more teapots but I am the lone teapot maker in our entire department and can only make so many damn teapots. Oh and making teapots is only 1/6 of what I do. I’ve talked about this with her, but the response is always that the higher-ups aren’t willing to spend more resources on more teapot-makers. In my opinion, it’s pretty stupid to demand more teapots and not hire more teapot makers but nobody said people make sense.)

    I’m still applying outside of the company, but even if I don’t have a job by the end of the year, I’ve decided to still quit. The thought of staying past the end of the year honestly puts me in tears, and I don’t think the money is worth feeling like a broken piece of machinery every day.

    Anyway, I guess I just mean to say that if other people are going through this, you’re not alone, and I think your mental health should come before any job. Sometimes the cash just isn’t worth the lasting impact on your health.

    1. Princess Cimorene*

      Having a firm end date in sight to your misery is probably going to be really helpful with the anxiety you’re feeling about it all. Continue to do your best work, for reference sake, but know that this won’t be your problem to deal with much longer. I really hope that you are able to find something sooner though.

  192. BusyBee*

    Kinda late to the party, but hoping the good people of the commentariat could help me out. I have been with my organization for 1.5 years. I started in a digital content role. After about 6 months, I was moved to a different marketing role, with a pay bump and different title. It was a new role for me and it took a while to get the hang of my new responsibilities. I’m finally at the point where everything is clicking- my boss is great, I had a fantastic midyear review, and I feel respected by the other functions with whom I work.

    Earlier this week I was offered another opportunity within the company. This would be moving back towards my digital lane, but in a much more technical capacity with A LOT of responsibility. The role is global and I would have a direct report. However, it would mean no longer reporting to my awesome boss and working with a totally different team. The person I would report to is definitely talented and I admire her skills, but she is pulled in a lot of different directions and I would have very little support. This would also be a big learning curve for me, with lots of new process and people to learn and understand.

    It definitely intrigues me- digital is my first and greatest love. But it’s so nice having a good boss, and the thought of learning all over again is kind of intimidating. On the other hand, it’s an awesome opportunity that I doubt I would get elsewhere. What would you do, wise reader?

    1. Sharkie*

      Can your current Boss still mentor you? How long did it take you to feel comfortable in your current role? Is the learning curve similar?

      1. BusyBee*

        I think she would, yeah. That’s a good point- it’s not like i’m barred from ever speaking from her again or benefiting from her experience. I would say it took like six months to get comfortable in the current role, and I would probably expect at least that long for the new role. Probably longer since there’s less support.

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      If this is a step forward n the career path you want, i would take it. If there is room for advancement where you are in a direction you want to go, I would stay. You might need to talk to your current boss to find out what that advancement might look like.

      Just from the details you’ve written, I’d probably go for it! It sounds like a great opportunity.

      1. BusyBee*

        I think you’re right. My current position, if I stay with my company which I would like to do for a few more years at least, doesn’t have a ton of growth. More autonomy within projects and the like, but not the kind of sustainable growth the new role could provide.

    3. Mazzy*

      There are only going to be so many opportunities to advance in your career, maybe a few, maybe one, maybe none, and if you turn down enough, they will stop materializing. I think you should go for it now, unless family/children/outside responsibilities keep you too occupied to focus on a more difficult job. As per the good boss, you can lose the good boss and still be in the lower level job, and that would suck

      1. BusyBee*

        This is very wise advice, I think. You are absolutely right that we gotta answer the door when opportunity knocks.

  193. Emily B*

    During my second-to-last semester of graduate school, I was a TA for a class introducing grad students to specialized software. It was a good experience, and the professor who interviewed me provided me with a GREAT reference which was a major factor in me landing my current (great) job.

    Before getting my current job, I’d applied to a job with the State Department. I decided to stay in the process even after getting my current job, because the process can take years, so why not keep it moving rather than have to restart the whole process later on if I decide I do want to join State? (My current supervisor knows this and is fine with it.) I had to get a security clearance, and one component was listing every supervisor I’d had in the past 7 years, their address, and their contact information.

    I’ve undergone low level investigations before, and based on that experience, I didn’t expect that they would contact anyone. I sent out brief emails to everyone whose information I listed, letting them know that there was a small chance they would be contacted and giving them a week or so to let me know if that wasn’t okay before I submitted the information. Because I thought the chance of anyone being contacted was so low (and I thought they’d just get an email asking about dates of employment), I didn’t go back and make sure that I’d gotten an affirmative response from everyone–I just submitted the information.

    A few weeks later, the professor I TAed for called me, very upset that he had been called by a government investigator. He hadn’t seen my email and was completely blindsided. He was mad that I hadn’t contacted him ahead of time and said that he’d already invested a lot of time recommending me and didn’t want to do it again. I think he was also a bit alarmed since he’s not a U.S. citizen (although he’s here legally) and might have thought that talking to a State Department investigator could get him in trouble (I wouldn’t have listed him if I’d thought there was any chance of that, but I can definitely understand someone having that perception right now). He said he was going to refuse to talk to them and that I shouldn’t list him as a reference again.

    I apologized and immediately emailed the investigator I’d been in touch with and asked them to make sure that they didn’t follow up with him, saying that I’d find another way to confirm my employment. My ex-boss actually did end up talking to the investigator and confirming the dates of my employment/that I ended on good terms, but was very clear that I shouldn’t do it again.

    My question: language to use if this comes up again and I have to explain why I can’t list him as a reference? I may have to do other security clearances or fill out online job applications that require contact information for every previous supervisor. It’s also obvious from my resume that he’s the only supervisor who can speak in detail about my proficiency with the highly marketable software I was teaching, so if I apply for a position that requires that software but don’t list him as a reference, they may ask about it. I know that the story doesn’t reflect super poorly on me (although I definitely could have done some things differently, like making sure to get affirmative permission to provide contact information for all my former supervisors even though I didn’t think they’d be contacted), but I’m struggling with how to convey this quickly and accurately without sounding like I’m glossing over details that make me look bad.

    1. CAA*

      Yes, everyone you list on an SF-86 the first time you fill one out does get contacted. It may be a phone call, an in-person visit, or by sending them a form to return, and you have no control over that. You also cannot skip listing a job if it’s in the timeframe required by the investigation, so you need to find an alternate person who can verify that you worked there if it’s still within 7 years when your clearance is up for renewal. This kind of thing is a verification of employment, not a reference check, so it doesn’t have to be someone who knows whether or not you did a good job. Can you use the University HR department? (I’m a little confused about the timeline, because normally you don’t get a security clearance until you have a job offer. I’ve never worked for State though, so maybe do things differently from everyone else.)

      In the meantime, if you need actual references to get a new job, don’t use him. If you provide more recent references from your current full-time job, it’s just very unlikely that anyone is going to ask why someone with a few years of professional experience is not still using a professor from when they were a student TA. If anybody does ask, you can tell the story then.

      1. Emily B.*

        Thanks for the input! On the timeline piece–State has everyone go through security and medical clearances before people go to the hiring register. They’ve tested and interviewed me and have decided that I’m eligible to be hired if they want to, but I still have to wait in line, and they’re hiring at very low levels.

    2. Earthwalker*

      I feel for you! The investigator may not be asking what you’d expect any reference checker to ask, though. I told an ex-employee I’d be glad to give her a reference and was called twice by different government offices to which she had applied. I told them she was very skilled, a good team worker, dependable, and hard working. They didn’t want to hear any of it. All they wanted to know, and asked me repeatedly as if they were grilling me, “Is she loyal to the United States?” (How should I know? Do they think we watch to see who salutes when they pass the company flagpole? Or that I might have overheard her mumbling “I’m gonna blow this joint and go overthrow the government?”) As a born citizen I found it a bit surreal, so I can understand your professor’s alarm. Is there anyone else in your school who perhaps doesn’t understand your skills very well but would be comfortable answering weird loyalty questions?

  194. NewToWork*

    Should you always negotiate even if you’re satisfied with the pay offered? I was offered a position that I definitely want take, and the base pay is already higher than most similar positions I’ve seen in this area. I was asked multiple times during the application process to confirm that I was aware of and okay with the general pay range for the position and told that offers are made within that range based on experience. I’m a recent grad, and my relevant experience is pretty limited, so I anticipated being on the lower end. I was offered the absolute bottom of the range, which I’d honestly still be pretty happy with, but I’m not sure if I’d be doing a disservice to myself by not at least asking for more. On the other hand, I’m not sure that I’m really worth more. If I do try to negotiate, how much of an increase should I ask for? This is a part-time position in a library, if that impacts your advice. Thanks!

    1. Psyche*

      If you feel that the offer is fair and you would be happy taking it, you do not need to negotiate. Not all employers try to lowball applicants. Just make sure that you have done your research about what a fair offer for the job would be.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah, you are brand new you’re supposed to be at the very bottom of the range, that’s how that works! So honestly asking for more would test waters I wouldn’t dip into at this stage. Now if you had a few years experience involved and they gave you the bottom of the range, then it’s time to say “I have 5 years experience with tea pot designing, I would like to see salary raised to ### to account for that experience I bring tot he table, I don’t think the bottom of the payscale would be where I should start out given that.”

      Don’t negotiate ever unless you want to. It always comes with at least some risk attached. Most won’t pull an offer but some very well might, especially if they kept asking you constantly if the range was good enough and explained their pay scale to you!

      Some will say to always ask for more and say it can’t hurt. It can. I’ve seen it. So just another voice in the wind with that acknowledgement.

  195. Narvo Flieboppen*

    Very late to the party follow up on Ms. Clueless, who held the bathroom door open to ask me a work question while I was in dire need.

    Ms. Clueless was out on Monday. Her new boss had a meeting with me to apologize for what happened and to indicate that going forward, Ms. Clueless would schedule times with me to sit down and discuss any pending issues.

    Tuesday through today, Ms. Clueless has neither scheduled time nor spoken to me. In the hallway, she keeps her head down and says nothing while rushing past me.

    So, I guess this is an improvement. I am steadfastly reminding myself not to feel bad about the awkwardness because I wasn’t the one who instigated it.

    2. LGC*

      Glad you’re feeling better and that she’s leaving you alone!

      By chance, Ms. Clueless’s first name isn’t Ethel, right?

    3. A.C. Stefano*

      I…desperately want to know the background on this. I should be reading the open threads more often!

      1. LGC*

        Look at last week’s open thread (search for OP’S name). Basically, he has an extremely pushy coworker who stepped WAY out of line.

    4. sacados*

      Glad to hear that Ms Clueless’s new manager seems to be taking charge and handling things properly.
      And yes– any awkwardness is most DEFINITELY not something for you to feel responsible for.

    5. Princess Cimorene*

      I ran to the other open thread to find your original post, and the visual was just too much to bare! LOL Your descriptive writing was excellent. I am flabbergasted at her gall.

      I am glad it has been handled in some fashion. Did you discuss the larger issue of her constantly requested handholding from her peers to do the basics of her job? That sounds like it is something that is being missed by management because she conveniently is bothering her coworkers for these tasks.

  196. Llama Wrangler*

    Hi everyone! Long time lurker, first time poster. I work in a grueling client-facing job that has been overall detrimental to my mental health. I will be interviewing next week for a new job (same professional level, different subject matter, more advisory role). My main hesitation with leaving my current job is that it has generous PTO and I generally come and go as I please, as long as I hit 75 hours per pay period. I fear that Potential New Job, in addition to having less PTO, is more of a butts-in-seats kind of job. I value my current ability to come in a little late/take a long lunch/leave early as my mood/day demands so I want to feel out what Possible New Job’s culture is like. Any ideas for appropriate questions to ask in the interview to help me figure that out would be greatly appreciated!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ask about flextime, ask if it’s available for the role and how it works in their system? You can easily explain that you have a flexible schedule right now that allows you to come in during a window period, say between 9-9:30 and you really appreciate that and would like to keep it in place! Worse case they say “we don’t flex time here, we do require everyone in this role to be here at X time, with lunch at Y time and quitting time is Z.” but they may be perfectly happy to work with you.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Thanks, that’s a great idea! On one hand it feels like the kind of thing I wouldn’t discuss until there’s an offer, but the lack of it would be a dealbreaker for me so I want to bring it up earlier.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Other hiring managers may think differently of course but I don’t think it’s one of those “wait until the offer phase”, since it goes along with work-life balance questions in the long run and those are usually deal breakers for people. Salary and PTO benefits are different because they’re often very much tailored to the person, not the firm itself. Whereas WFH or flextime is less negotiated and more blanket policy kind of thing.

          I saw what a person take a job, hoping they’d get flextime [they should have gotten flextime, the reason not to was utter BS] and were shot down. It really zapped their energy and yeah, they checked out quit quickly. I wish they would have brought it up prior and saved themselves that bad-af-fit.

          1. Llama Wrangler*

            That’s exactly the situation I’m looking to avoid. I’m at the point in my career where I’m a lot more picky (and justifiably so, I think) about workplace culture and a good work/life balance is infinitely more important to me than money. Thanks again for your advice!

  197. Gossip, yuck.*

    A friend/coworker in another department told me she had over heard two of my department mates gossiping that I was having an affair with a coworker (we’re both married). This is completely untrue and I’m sure based on the fact that we are both around the same age (which is about 5 to 10 years longer then everyone else) and have a friendly relationship at work.

    While I tried to just let it go, I’m also paranoid about interacting with said coworker, I don’t want to fuel the flames. The other day he asked me if I’d lend him a hand on something and I caught some coworkers eyeing us pretty intensely. I haven’t mentioned it to that coworker. I did tell my husband, he thinks it’s just hilarious, especially since he’s met and talked to said coworker and they both have similar looks (same hair color, same type of clothing style). I don’t want to treat coworker any different, I enjoy talking to him and he’s become a good friend, however I also don’t want to be gossiped about. I mean how awkward would it be to have to say, hey guys I’m not sleeping with so and so, we just happen to like the same types of movies?

    Ugh, gossip!

    1. sacados*

      Depends on the politics at your office, but if you wanted to you could maybe call them out on it.
      Something like “Hey by the way, I heard from Other Department Friend that you might be under the impression there’s something untoward going on between me and Coworker. He’s a good colleague and I don’t appreciate people spreading that kind of gossip.”

      You’d have to make sure to keep a lighter tone and make a point of being extra super warm and professional with the gossipy coworkers after that, but you could say something if you wanted to.

      Otherwise, I wouldn’t let it get to you. Anyone who hears them gossiping is likely to think badly of them and not of you, especially if they know you and the other guy to be competent professionals.

      If you trust your manager to handle something like this discreetly, another option would be share with them what your friend told you about the gossipers and ask your manager to shut it down. That way, they could approach the gossipers and say either that someone brought this to their attention, or maybe even that the manager overheard the gossip directly — tell them it’s unprofessional and needs to stop.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would patch him into the gossip, so that way he doesn’t have any hurt feelings with you pulling away. Don’t let these rude gossipy hens ruin your relationship with a colleague like that! It’s normal to not want to be gossiped about and I’m glad you were told about it but protect both of you, he may be more willing or able to speak up and squash it too. It also is damaging to HIS reputation as well. He may be able to brush it off easier though, being a dude and all but yeah. Just get on the same page with him so he knows that you know, he may already know as well and is rolling his eyes at it and going about business as usual.

      This is damaging for you long term, just pulling away will only make them keep saying it but be all “Oh they know we’re onto them so they’re being more coy about it! ooohh” E-W.

  198. Friday Sounds*

    Sitting here in my open cubicle listening to multiple calls on speaker phones from the offices surrounding our cubicle area and another co-worker singing and whistling very loudly and very out of tune. Is it 5 o’clock yet?

    2. LGC*

      Oh God.

      One of my employees has been singing 90’s/00’s alternative rock all week. He’s a nice guy. He is definitely NOT Brendon Urie from Panic! At The Disco.

      (There was also Nickelback involved. Aside from being his supervisor, I’m also a meme lord caught in 2012, so you can imagine my feelings about that.)

      1. Friday Sounds*

        Still 45 minutes to go. West coast. :( And now a different co-worker is streaming a hearing? a presentation? without headphones.

  199. Stefan Thelan*

    I ride my bike to work.

    This morning, I’m a couple of blocks from my office riding through a green light when I was nearly run over by my boss, who had taken a right turn through her red light without stopping or looking. I braked and swerved. She braked and rolled down her window and said, laughingly, “I did it again!!!!”

    Because that’s happened before. Same scenario a couple of times, and once in the office she mentioned almost hitting me though I was not aware I was almost hit.

    She walked into my cubby and said, “Oh my god, so funny! I almost hit you AGAIN!!!! Good thing you wear a helmet!”

    Generally, I find her uninspired and narcissistic, though I am super friendly to her and she thinks I like her a lot.

    I’m not sure if I’m looking for advice here or if I just want to say: My boss has almost run me over a couple of times and is all LOL about it.

    I’m not sure what to do about it except be ULTRA careful at that intersection.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What a vile woman. She’s going to kill someone and I hope someone takes away her GD license before that happens.

    2. Anon PhD*

      This is appalling…can you anonymously report her to your police department? If you’re scared of your boss think of the fact that in theory (and possibly in reality?) someone could have seen her do this to you and had reported it, esp. since this is a reoccurring (!) event. Can you change your bike route?

    3. Parenthetically*

      Report her now to your police non-emergency line as an observer reporting a reckless driver. “This morning I saw a black BMW X3, license place ISUK423, nearly hit a cyclist, pull over and taunt the cyclist, and drive away.”

    4. sometimes cycler*

      If it happens again try to say something, anything, that’s not agreeing that it’s funny (I know it can be really hard in these situations not to just go with it because we’re so trained to small talk and laugh things off sometimes, especially when confronted with people in power). “Hey watch it!” if you’re on your bike. “Wow, you know it was really scary, I don’t find it funny at all.” if she brings it up in the office.

    5. LGC*

      Okay, we need to talk about your boss.

      In December.

      Preferably under a poll that lists “the boss who almost ran over their employee multiple times” as an option.

      (Yes, I just suggested she’s a candidate for Worst Boss Of 2019. @ me.)

      Just so you know: this is something I think you can speak up about! She might think you’re crazy for saying, “Hey, Boss, I don’t find it funny that you nearly hit me with your car twice and in fact both times were kind of scary.” I’m pretty sure NO ONE ELSE will. I certainly don’t.

      (I’m suggesting this because it sounds like she likes you and you might have some capital here. If you think she’ll likely retaliate, you can escalate to one of the other options.)

      1. voyager1*

        If I commuted more, I would do cycliq cameras, front and back. Obviously wear Hi Viz as well. Also a helmet mirror too.

        Your boss sucks too.

    6. London Calling*

      Absolutely report this, anonymously if you have to. Cyclists in London have been killed by drivers doing this. She is driving without due care and attention and she’s treating it as a joke. Frankly she sounds like a menace on the roads.

  200. AnonAnon*

    Trying to find work while working. It’s tough. I’ve gotten a couple of interviews but no offers. I’ve been working for a nonprofit but want to expand to something not nonprofit mainly due to wanting to make more money.

  201. BagelBitesDay*

    Hi everybody. I’ve been waiting for Friday to ask ya’ll if this is normal and enforceable. Our big boss announced in a all managers meeting that when one of our employees turn in a resignation we have to 1. Ask if they’ve told their coworkers they are leaving and 2. Tell them they are prohibited from sharing their resignation or tell them they are not allowed to keep spreading the word about their resignation.

    I don’t think this is enforceable but the big boss wants us (managers) to be the ones who tell our respective teams about resignations. Some of us (managers) think it’s because she(big boss) is upset about the most recent resignations where the resign-er(?) left on a bad note and voiced their displeasure with their coworkers too. Also we work in a small-medium is office.

    1. Colette*

      That’s pretty unworkable. You’d have better luck saying “I’d like to work with you on a plan to tell the team. Can we mention it at the meeting tomorrow?” rather than coming down hard over a trivial matter you have no means to enforce. What are you going to do if they talk about it- fire them?

      1. BagelBitesDay*

        Colette that lovely phrasing. I will have to use that as other phrases sound unnecessarily demanding towards someone who is on their way out.

      1. BagelBitesDay*

        Thankful for AAM, I believe that too. Most employees are friends, outside of the workplace, with their team members and will share information.

        It doesn’t help that Big Boss tells HR to terminate resign-ers one to two days after they give their two week notice.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What are the consequences if they tell others? Why would they follow this procedure?

      Can they withhold your payout for PTO by chance? [Some states don’t allow that of course, so that would depend on the jurisdiction!] but it’s what some of those places that want that rule in place do.

      It’s a crap policy and makes people feel like prisoners more than employees. Why does it matter?

      The way most people resign is that they tell their boss and then they start telling their colleagues, or perhaps they tell their colleagues slightly before their boss but only once it’s set in stone. Since you don’t start talking about it until you’ve got your exit plan in place [a job lined up usually].

      1. BagelBitesDay*

        The Man, Becky Lynch there are (seemingly) no consequences for us managers or resigning employees.

        I don’t know why it matters to Big Boss but, she’s more focused on trying to control “resignation chatter and gossip” (her words in quotes) over finding why we had multiple consecutive resignations who left on bad notes.

  202. Ladybug*

    How would you have handled this situation? I, mid-30s woman of color, started a new job recently and attended the 3-day orientation with 2 men and 1 other woman.

    The two men treated me as though I did not exist the entire three days. One of the men’s behavior could even be categorized as hostile. He would snap at me if I talked to him directly and during group activities, would ignore what I said. I observed their behavior around the other woman and the facilitator (who was also a woman of color) and they were treated with respect, even jovial at times.

    I ignored their behavior and treated them with the dignity and respect I gave everyone else. None of us are in the same department, so it’s hard to say I will ever see them regularly. I figured it was not worth the effort. At the same time, it just seemed so uncalled for and I wonder if I should have stood up for myself more. I am irritated they put a stain on my first week at a new job. And what if I am to work with them on projects in the future? What would you have done?

    1. Crackles*

      I would like to think I would have asked them if I’d done something to offend them, but of course I’m much more bold in my mind than I am in real life. I think you should be commended for continuing to treat them with dignity and respect, despite their lack of it.

      1. Ladybug*

        Thank you! My “be a good girl” pants are always on, for better or worse. I do wonder, if I’d been brave enough to ask them that, maybe it would have snapped them out of it? Sometimes that’s all it takes.

    2. Tomato Anonymato*

      Is your job – as far as you know – lower in the hierarchy? I’ve seen some people thinking they don’t need to treat people who are “below” them as nicely as equals or those in position of more power. Sorry about this experience – and how wonderful that you were able to still treat them nice.

      1. Ladybug*

        That’s a good point. Our roles are on the same level, but I could see them both thinking they are superior simply because I look young. I may be in my 30s but I look younger and am often treated accordingly. Thank you for your empathy!

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry that happened. Can you ask the facilitator if she noticed the snappish behavior from HostileGuy during your training? Not sure about the quiet one, as it’s more difficult to say in that case.

      I’d keep my eyes and ears open to see if this is a pattern within the company. It’s so hard to know these things until you’re in, unfortunately.

      1. Ladybug*

        I’ll consider asking the facilitator… At the time, I had considered it but I didn’t want to be labeled as sensitive or drama-prone at a new job. I really, really hope this is not a pattern at this company. Thank you for your empathy!

  203. Drew*

    Delightful perk of working from home today: I get to smell dinner simmering away in my slow cooker all afternoon.

  204. dt*

    What does a detail-orientated person look like in your role/industry? I see that word used all the time but I’d love to see some specific examples.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’m a copywriter at a CPG company. Here it means you literally pay attention to details: is that comma in the right place? does this product and this description match? are the item numbers the same? did you write the product description correctly according to our formula and style guide? can you catch other people’s style mistakes?

    2. Jamie*

      Micro example: As head of internal audit team attention to detail I need is compiling all referenced records as objective evidence in your audit report. Noting the procedure or clause in the standard to which you are referring when you write a corrective action. Issuing said CAR to the correct process owner.

      Or just remembering to put your name on the audit report. Somedays I’d settle for that.

      Broader picture for me it’s accuracy – if you give me numbers I need them to be right. If something is off tolerance by 0.026 then note that. Specificity, details…and locations of system documents you’re referencing. Abiding my document control processes like it’s your one true religion.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s about accuracy in most aspect of accounting. I need things to balance, I need you to pay attention to the reports and not just run them and pass them along for others to spot or freak out about for example.

      I also need you to be able to be able to read invoices regardless of their format, you need to know the details you’re looking for and input them correctly.

      It’s about following all the necessary steps while doing the duty at hand. Read it, farm the necessary details for the job you’re doing, input those details where they belong, file where it belongs kind of steps. Don’t skip over the all data points you’re looking for. That’s what I find most frequently in people who struggle with a role that is detail oriented. They skip over very important details.

      This is how duplicate invoices/payments happen. They enter it in as the Invoice number. Pay it. Then get re-entered under the PO number, so the system cannot catch it. You have to be able to figure out the invoice number on a regular basis so that doens’t happen. Or stay consistent with the practice of how you assign invoice reference numbers to the random bills you do get without actual invoice numbers attached [usually when people use a statement kind of format,barf].

    4. Not So NewReader*

      For my current job, it’s asking questions. My boss is also impressed with the fact that I never ask the same question twice. It’s knowing to ask and then retaining the answer. I get it more often than not. One little detail can change the whole picture. You know those kid puzzles with two pictures and kids are supposed to pick out the differences? Yeah, I do the adult version of that, “This is not like the other because blah, blah, blah.”

      I do have a little journal book that I write some answers in. Nope, I won’t remember a 27 step process that I do every two years. Not going to happen.

      But basically, I think a good detail person double checks their work. With numbers it can be a matter of adding across as well as down. With files and documents, it can be keeping the docs in order and noting the frequently used information on the inside of the file folder or putting a list of next steps on the inside. (I am sure there are other ideas, also.)
      A good detail person has notes on most things. And they have an overall plan for the week and day.
      They should be good at estimating how long something should take if every thing goes well. Then they can pad the time for unforeseens. However, it takes time to learn to do this accurately. But if a person watches, they will figure it out.

    5. Earthwalker*

      In manufacturing it can simply be a euphemism for a female employee, used when it’s not appropriate to address gender directly.

    6. Mazzy*

      We are analytical workers and do a slew of reporting and commissions and payments and check the accuracy of prices and other data on a large scale (SQL and Excel formulas). A regular worker with go through the routine tasks; a detail-oriented person will generate a list of things they find that are wrong or out of the ordinary and follow up on them and turn them into projects – they will investigate them to see if the one example of something weird was an anomaly or a pattern, and then query for other cases and make the issue into a software upgrade project, and then follow it through all of the steps to completion. Many of these projects overlap, so they will see the overlap and plan accordingly.

      To use a physical example (of the #s), someone might find chipped paint in a closet. They then inspect the house for paint and find five more areas of bad paint. They decide a paint job is in order, but then realize that someone else wanted to do the floors into two rooms, and a ceiling might need changing. It doesn’t make sense to paint after the floors are done, so they coordinate with the floorer to rush the paint job to get done before the flooring, and before the new ceiling. Just an analogy.

  205. yeine*

    my friend Tom and I are at Burning Man. Tom moved away so I don’t get to see him often, so we really want to hang out. We go out at night, but Tom forgot something important and has to go back to our camp to get it. Tom comes back, looking really down.

    He says: “I just got a text from my boss. It just says ‘we need to meet.’ I’m going to get fired. I’m going to get fired. I’m going to get fired. I’m going to get fired. I’m going to get fired. I need to get drunk, I need to get drunk.”

    I’m like: well, let’s not think about it. It could be anything – they could be changing your working arrangement, or promoting you, or just forgot you were on vacation and didn’t realize it. There’s lots of stuff. Let’s just catch up on everything.

    Him: I”m going to get fired, I need to be drunk.

    I tried to change the subject multiple times but all he’ll say is “i’m going to get fired; i need to be drunk.”

    After like 30 minutes of this, I was like “Look, I don’t really want to hang out with you if you’re not going to like … have a conversation with me.”

    Waited a few days to follow up, and guess what? His boss wanted to meet with him to give him a raise in person.

      1. yeine*

        We hadn’t talked in months becuase he moved away, but I don’t *remember* being that dramatic. Then again, he’s paycheck to paycheck and has a lot of debt, so I could understand his job crisis.

        still… TOM’S MANAGER… W H Y.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s pretty normal to have that dread in your stomach when you just get a “we need to talk” message from your boss, from your spouse, from your mom, from your friend, etc.

          My mother does this all the time. “Are you busy? Call me????” and I’m like “What is happening?” “Oh nothing, just wanted to chat.” [With a history of family emergencies you know, don’t do that! I cannot deprogram myself to think it’s urgent since the first time I just ignore it, it’s going to be my phone actually all blowing up and “Are you okay? I need to tell you that your uncle is in a comaaaaaaaaaa.” ]

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This reminds me of the letter from the other day where the boss would act like things were reallyreallyreallyreally not-good and then be all “J/K, it’s good news! You’re the bestest!”

      Don’t be vague, don’t text your employee to do this when they’re on vacation, that’s just thoughtless oaf levels.

  206. AnonNon*

    I tried twice to email my question to alison@askamanager.com and both times I got a “Message Delivery Failure” bounceback reply. So dear readers, I am hoping you can help me with this one. Alison too, if you see this!

    I need some advice on whether to stay in my current job, and how I should proceed if I decide to stay.

    At the moment I work in a small office as part of a large local company where most employees are out doing field work and interacting with clients. I spend a few hours each week doing field work, but would love to be doing it full-time. I’ve been in my position for a while now, and although I don’t hate it, I don’t love it either. In short, I am often struggling to find work to do throughout the day, and I am not being challenged or learning new skills.

    Here’s where the dilemma kicks in: My boss and I don’t see eye-to-eye on my career goals and path. They are determined to keep me in the office, despite there being a need for employees in the field and me expressing my interest to them in doing such work. I am both a fast learner and a fast worker, so taking on additional field work would not interfere with my office work (or lack of it), but Boss insists that because I was hired “for the office”, that’s where I need to stay.

    As part of my recent evaluation, I reiterated to Boss my interest in splitting my hours between office work and field work. Boss has responded by creating several “projects”, some of which I think they should be doing themselves (scheduling and running meetings), or should be shared among the office staff. I’m conflicted – while I’d be glad to be busier at the office, the timing of these “projects” being created after I expressed my desire for more field work irks me. It seems like it’s just a ploy to keep me in the office, and so Boss can tell Field Boss that I’m too busy and can’t be spared (this is not true). The projects are things that should be done eventually, but the timing and the fact they were all assigned to me (with help from co-workers I supervise) is suspicious.

    Grandboss is aware of my interest in additional field work and the conflict between myself and Boss, but for the most part has tried to stay out of it.

    I should also mention that I work in a field with a highly competitive job market, where job openings are pretty rare, at least in my area. Looking for another job would definitely involve moving out of state, the thought of which is overwhelming to me at the moment.

    Should I stay quiet, or say something to Boss (or even Grandboss) about this? We are professional with each other, but have clashed over me wanting to do more field work. I want to stay on Boss’s good side so they’re more likely to work with me, but I also want to stand up for myself and call them out on the shady timing of these new “projects”.

    I’d greatly appreciate any advice you can offer me on this.

    1. LGC*

      The site is askamanager.org! So that might be why you’re getting bouncebacks.

      Anyway…so how much is your grandboss on your side? You say they’re aware of your interest and the clash between you and your direct boss, but do they support your goals? You’ve already tried with your boss, and they’ve seemed to not react well. So…I think you already have enough information on your boss.

      1. Princess Cimorene*

        she owns all the domains though (.com and .net forward to .org), but maybe hasn’t set up email forwarding from all domains.

  207. smalltownjumper*

    Good Afternoon all,
    So I’m working on getting the nerve to apply for a job that I honestly do not meet the min qualifications for. I’m a GIS Coordinator vs Surveyor. Many of the task overlap and I essentially have the desk part of a surveyor and don’t have to be licensed. I am wanting to express interest in a surveyor job that has been open for 6 months kind of on the I’ll commit to you and furthering my education (there is a 2 year certificate program I can complete online) if you’ll hire me before I’m licensed kind of thing. Is this a thing? Do I hurt myself by sending a letter of interest or cover letter with my resume? The reason I’m even interested in changing jobs is I love GIS but I’m moving two hours away so staying here isn’t an option. Help? Advice?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I am not familiar with the arena, but my thought is, ask! Are you willing to pay for licensing yourself? Are you willing to work for a rate similar to other unlicensed people in your arena doing the same work? Say what you are willing to contribute here.

      Going the opposite way, do you know anyone who might know someone at this company? Do you have an inroad that you have not considered yet?

      I think the worst thing that can happen is they say to please call them once you get licensed.

  208. Anonymous For My Question*

    I tried twice to email my question to alison@askamanager.com and both times I got a “Message Delivery Failure” bounceback reply. So dear readers, I am hoping you can help me with this one. Alison too, if you see this!

    I need some advice on whether to stay in my current job, and how I should proceed if I decide to stay.

    At the moment I work in a small office as part of a large local company where most employees are out doing field work and interacting with clients. I spend a few hours each week doing field work, but would love to be doing it full-time. I’ve been in my position for a while now, and although I don’t hate it, I don’t love it either. In short, I am often struggling to find work to do throughout the day, and I am not being challenged or learning new skills.

    Here’s where the dilemma kicks in: My boss and I don’t see eye-to-eye on my career goals and path. They are determined to keep me in the office, despite there being a need for employees in the field and me expressing my interest to them in doing such work. I am both a fast learner and a fast worker, so taking on additional field work would not interfere with my office work (or lack of it), but Boss insists that because I was hired “for the office”, that’s where I need to stay.

    As part of my recent evaluation, I reiterated to Boss my interest in splitting my hours between office work and field work. Boss has responded by creating several “projects”, some of which I think they should be doing themselves (scheduling and running meetings), or should be shared among the office staff. I’m conflicted – while I’d be glad to be busier at the office, the timing of these “projects” being created after I expressed my desire for more field work irks me. It seems like it’s just a ploy to keep me in the office, and so Boss can tell Field Boss that I’m too busy and can’t be spared (this is not true). The projects are things that should be done eventually, but the timing and the fact they were all assigned to me (with help from co-workers I supervise) is suspicious.

    Grandboss is aware of my interest in additional field work and the conflict between myself and Boss, but for the most part has tried to stay out of it.

    I should also mention that I work in a field with a highly competitive job market, where job openings are pretty rare, at least in my area. Looking for another job would definitely involve moving out of state, the thought of which is overwhelming to me at the moment.

    Should I stay quiet, or say something to Boss (or even Grandboss) about this? We are professional with each other, but have clashed over me wanting to do more field work. I want to stay on Boss’s good side so they’re more likely to work with me, but I also want to stand up for myself and call them out on the shady timing of these new “projects”.

    I’d greatly appreciate any advice you can offer me on this.

      1. valentine*

        Stop telling your boss you want to work in the field. They’re being weirdly possessive and punishing you for being honest. (Consider whether they have an untoward interest in you and just want you around.) Start searching for a better job and, if you don’t think either of them will fire you on the spot or push you out (and probably replace you with someone they allow to do fieldwork!), ask GB to intervene.

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      I mean, you got hired for office work. Is it typical to start in the office and move to field work in your industry? If not, it seems understandable that your boss likes the job you are doing and wants you to keep doing it. Or maybe the boss wants a different skill set or person for the field work?

      I’m not sure you can convince them to let you do fieldwork if they dont want to.

  209. Thankful for AAM*

    Tldr: help with W-9 for a speaking engagement!

    I agreed to be a presenter for an all day workshop for travel costs but I still have to do a W-9 form. I was hoping they would just pay for airfare, hotel, and car.

    I hate figuring out the tax side of this. It does not come up often and I don’t have a tax preparer. Does anyone have advice about where to go to figure this out or what I need to do on my taxes with this? Once before, turbo tax made me list a few hundred dollars as income from my own company and it did not seem right.

    TIA!

    1. De Minimis*

      They probably have to keep a W9 on file for any vendor that could potentially require them to generate a 1099. If they’re just paying travel expenses that shouldn’t generate a 1099 depending on how it’s handled.

    2. Margaret*

      Many companies have a policy of getting a W-9 before paying out anything to any vendor, regardless of what they know about the likely tax impact to the recipient. For example, I’m on a nonprofit board and asked my employer to make a donation – they ask for a W-9 even though there’s zero tax reason to issue a 1099 or other form to a nonprofit because you made a donation to them. (And they, indeed, did not issue any tax forms to the nonprofit.)

      If the total is less than $600, they shouldn’t issue a 1099-MISC to you regardless. Even if over $600, if the payment to you is fully reimbursement of expenses they likely shouldn’t issue you a 1099 (but there’s some grey area, and some degree of confusion common around this). But if you’re ever issued a 1099 that’s actually reimburesment (not compensation), just report it on a Sch C (will satisfy the IRS), and then show the reimbursement as expenses. If it’s truly reimbursement you shouldn’t be taxed on it. (Turbo tax can’t “make” you report it anywhere/be taxed on it, it just might require more input to get to the right answer and they might not provide clear guidance on how to do that.)

      1. CAA*

        Yes, this is exactly what I’ve done in the past. I did a training class for one of our clients and for various reasons they reimbursed me directly for my travel and materials expenses instead of having me submit them through my employer and reimbursing them. When I did my taxes, I told TurboTax that in addition to my normal W-2 earnings I also had my own business, then I just answered all the questions. I wound up with a Schedule C-EZ where I had $2K on line 1 for gross receipts and $2K on line 2 for expenses; so the net was $0 and it had no effect on our taxes. The IRS never questioned it.

    4. Tmarie*

      The IRS requires us to get W-9’s from every vendor. If you will have airfare, hotel and car reimbursed to you, KEEP your receipts because unless they pay those directly (unlikely), you will need the receipts to deduct against the 1099. Your net will be zero, and Turbo Tax should be able to figure this out! (It’s not scary, really!)

      1. De Minimis*

        In our accounting system when we reimbursed people for travel we used a different general ledger code than the one we used to pay them for the work they performed. The code didn’t flow through to the 1099. I’m hoping most places would follow a similar practice.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Well your W-9 isn’t going to allow you to add any additional withholding, so I’m not sure where the help is required in that sense?

      That only has your SSN so they can send you a 1099 at the end of the year. YES they only need to do it if you are paid more than $600 HOWEVER lots of places do it no matter what they pay you, so keep that in mind, you will have to claim it if it’s $599 and they do generate the paperwork and send it to the IRS.

      If they do book your flight for you and pay for it, then you’re fine there. That’s not compensation on your part, that’s a business expense related to trucking in a speaker. If they reimburse you, it also shouldn’t be put on your 1099 but that’s not saying it won’t of course, which is another mess and the hell of being put through the proper channels as a contractor. You can file an adjustment for it.

      Keep all your receipts and use them to itemize if possible but usually unless you’re running a large enough contractor gig, those receipts won’t really adjust your taxes owed in the end. It stinks and it’s why the “little guy” tends to pay so much more in taxes in the long run but yeah, that’s how that works.

      I would suggest that if you do these kind of things on a regular basis, it may be best to get a CPA to do your personal taxes. If you get the right firm, it’s really affordable, around the same cost as if you buy TurboTax and you have peace of mind in the event you’re ever audited. My parents had to get a CPA years ago for some inheritance stuff and then kept them since it was so affordable for their taxes and they are very much not someone who /needs/ tax preparation but they prefer it.

    6. Thankful for AAM*

      Thanks all!
      It was really the 1099 and setting up the part of my taxes where I have a business that I wanted help on.

      I will probably spend close to $600 for the trip; with any luck, I’ll be able to keep it under that. I did not know that limit so that helps.

      Thanks again!

    7. Glomarization, Esq.*

      They need it for your SSN and mailing address. It doesn’t affect your withholding.

      I keep an electronic one on my home computer where I’ve pasted in a scan of my signature and send it out when I’m asked. It’s no biggie at all.

  210. MixedDrinks*

    Mixed feelings on something here…
    At what point would you draw the line on a coworker with a chronic illness?

    My coworker has one (and is open about it) but many feel they abuse their accommodations and FMLA protections. No one doubts the validity or severity of the illness but since they are so open and we can see the accommodations made we know what some of the triggers are. Coworker is also out of PTO and recently asked to take some unpaid vacation to attend a music festival in another state. This would be coworker’s third music festival this year and the prior two resulted in several missed days of work to deal with a very severe flare up (essentially 2 days recovery for each day at the music festival). Due to the timing of the festivals and holidays, coworker worked approximately 7 days of that month. Request was denied because a) Company policy does not allow for unpaid time off to be used for these purposes b) coworker was very open about where they were going as well as what happened after the last 2 festivals so supervisor knows to expect (i.e. several sick days after they return from the festival).
    Coworker is livid and claiming that denying the vacation request violates their ADA and FMLA accommodations. Many people are sympathetic with coworker because of the illness and think supervisor is being mean since coworker had to use most of their PTO earlier in the year before their FMLA coverage kicked in on their 1-year anniversary (coworker is not embellishing the story at all – it is very factual).
    I am mixed because I know the supervisor feels bad they cannot grant the time off request because they know what coworker plans on doing and the impact it will have beyond the original time off request but at the same time think coworker is a dumb-ass for continually putting themselves in situation they know will cause their condition to flare up. Had coworker kept their mouth shut or said they were going to visit their family in Other State she would have really tried to work with them. I am also fed up with coworker since I am the one who usually ends up covering their work when they are out.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Oof!
      I think company is probably being reasonable to say no if the person has used up all of their normal vacation days. Asking for unpaid days is typically for special circumstances and more discretionary. So, like maybe you’d get a day off unpaid for a funeral or something, but not a music festival or concert. And this seems to be stated in the company policy.

      Now, if the person still HAD paid vacation days left, I presume they would have been allowed to take off, as the company can’t really dictate what one does on one’s vacation.

      1. valentine*

        For the coverage bit, talk to your manager and cut her off if she tries to bang on about this coworker because the issue is management and not this person’s body/life. It’s gross that people are judging this person for wanting to enjoy life in a particular way. I would detach from that as much as possible. Maybe they are sick and tired of being sick and tired and music festivals are one thing they definitely enjoy. Should they plan ahead? Sure. If it were me and I could work ahead without injury, I might try to do that. (WFH and OT policies might limit this.) But they should be able to be honest without weird backlash and the manager can, at any time, sit them down and spell it out, so, again, a management issue.

    2. Psyche*

      It’s not like the coworker didn’t really get to take any vacations because they used all their PTO on sick time. I would hope your company would try to be more accommodating if that were the case. But they went to two other music festivals. I’m pretty sure ADA and FMLA do not require employers to grant unpaid days off for vacations. It seems like your coworker is acting pretty entitled.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I’m pretty sure ADA and FMLA do not require employers to grant unpaid days off for vacations.

        They sure do not. I was on (intermittent) FMLA at two different companies, and that was not a thing.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The fact this coworker is raging on about ADA and FMLA accommodations, your company is doing exactly the right thing by keeping to their policies and not bending rules for her. That would open them up even wider because it sounds like someone who may actually try to pull a lawyer into this so they need to stay buttoned up and to the letter of the laws, especially if others have been denied before because they also don’t want it to bleed into the person without these medical conditions to start asking to take unpaid time off.

      Lots of people will side with someone like this because they generally don’t like the rules and power that the establishment have over them. That’s not unnatural to feel that way and it’s not wrong either. However as someone who would have also shut this down and yeah, felt bad about it but having to play by absolute rules happens when it comes to protecting the company first and foremost, it is what it is.

      I sympathize because I feel for her. This is her form of preferred entertainment and everyone deserves to enjoy themselves. But yeah, sometimes we don’t get to do the fun things because the adult side of life, work and family obligations etc override the fun things in the long run! I hope your company at least has a generous sick leave policy for her so she’s not just taking a bunch of unpaid time under FMLA when she’s ill at very least.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Well said.

        At some point it stops being about the one employee and starts being about work flows and the people left behind. Someone (you) is taking up her slack every time she is out. And the boss has to ask themselves questions such as, “If everyone did this how much of this could we do?” It’s just not sustainable for the company. While the time off is not paid there are hidden costs such as various insurances, loss of productivity, loss of morale and so on.

        While I have a ton of sympathy for anyone fighting a chronic battle, I also believe that things like a little gratitude and reciprocity are in order. This means she needs to take the incentive to show that she knows people are picking up her slack and that it hurts the company when she is not there.

        Of the places I have worked if I only showed up 7 days out of the month I would end up in a sit-down meeting hammering out a long term plan. To me, her choices read that she does not realize the company really helped her here.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Thank you, you added a lot of what I also didn’t know how to tie in.

          I’m really prickly when it comes to ever calling someone out for “Taking advantage” of their employer because I don’t think it happens that often. However in this case, it’s really edging over that line. Employers have a lot of wiggle room in the end and if they’re properly staffed, one person being out for an extended leave because of health difficulties shouldn’t be overwhelmingly horrific by any means. But yeah, acting put out and actually tossing out “unlawful!” rants to other colleagues over this kind of thing gets my blood pumping the other direction.

          This kind of behavior is why we can’t all have nice things. This is why there are these policies etched out in the first place. If we were all mindful of our actions and how they impact others, including our employers and colleagues, then we would not need to be told exactly why unpaid time off to go to a fun event isn’t approved. She tried, I don’t blame her for asking at all but to blow up about it, h-ll no.

    4. LGC*

      That’s…not how the ADA and FMLA work. (Directed at your coworker.) I’m siding with your supervisor on this – she’s not denying the time due to your coworker’s illness, she’s denying personal time off.

      It also depends on how much time the coworker is requesting off – to me, it feels like a lot of time, but I can’t tell for sure.

  211. Two_Cents*

    At my work, we have a long busy season, and then a sudden, short, but REALLY slow season, which just started. Bouncing off of this, one of my executives has launched a wellness plan (totally optional) where you give yourself points for things like “cooking a healthy meal”, “bringing a healthy snack” “mediating for 5 minutes” “getting 30 minutes of activity” etc. Most of these are pretty benign, although some, like “take the stairs twice a day” made me pause, as we’re on the 9th and 12th floors, and that seems prohibitive to people with any sort of mobility issue.

    This is a competition. She’ll be finding out who the leaders are each week, and email us updates. Whoever wins, by getting the most points (ie, doing the most things) will get a fairly good prize (around $280 value).

    I think this is really well meant, but the competitive side of it makes me a little nervous. It’s optional, but the target behaviours are definitely going to advantage physically active, time-rich people. The competitive and public sharing of other peoples physical activity/healthy food behaviours also doesn’t seem great from a mental health standpoint–particularly if anyone in the office struggles with any sort of food related disorder (I don’t know of any instances, but we’re dealing with about 80-90 people, here.)

    Thoughts? Should I just leave it? Or talk to her? If so, what should I say

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since the majority of them seem to be pretty basic and not restrictive of physical ailments, those people still have a fighting chance. Unless they ranked taking the stairs twice a day was huge, even able bodied folks aren’t going to be going for the stairs multiple times a day when you’re on the 12th floor!

      As long as it’s a mixture of different things, I’d leave it alone.

      If it was ALL physical stuff “20 jumping jacks” “10 situps” “5 pushups” “Running the stairs” “Walking the stairs” “catapult to the moon using this giant trampoline we got from NASA” then I would absolutely say something.

      When you’re dealing with so many people, we could argue that nothing like this should ever be done because odds are you have a few people on staff that cannot participate but in the end, you’ll always have people who straight up just don’t want to do it either. So as long as it’s “fair” and kept in “good fun” and very much optional, they’re doing it right.

    2. Lady Kelvin*

      In my opinion when you are doing things like this, being fair isn’t everyone can do everything, but everyone can do somethings. You focus on the folks who can’t do stairs, but there are also probably folks who don’t have time to cook, etc. and so you try to make sure everyone can do something.

    3. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I’m wondering how they know if you’re actually cooking healthy meals. Do they have to take your word for it? If they do, it would be easy to get credit for cooking 21 healthy meals each week.

  212. Brazil*

    Good afternoon – regular reader/poster here under new name for this question to keep things as anonymous as possible given that it’s a work travel question. Would anyone have any advice on business travel to Brazil, specifically the city of Sao Paulo and neighboring cities. Grand Boss and I and a few other colleagues will be heading there in a few months, we are all from North America, none of us have been to Brazil or South America before, none of us speak Brazilian Portuguese (though I plan on using Duolingo to learn at least the basics). The people we’ll be working with all speak English so communication shouldn’t be a big issue. We’ll be getting all our shots and travel clinic advice, since there’s a yellow fever outbreak there. We’ll have a recommended car service drive us to and from our destinations/hotel. So the logistics and health practicalities will be taken care of.

    Would anyone suggest any other practicalities to be aware of? Also, how could we find out about air quality advisories given the fires in the Amazon? I tried finding that out through google searches but did not have much luck, other than seeing maps of how winds can of course shift things. I also read that there are water shortages currently in Sao Paulo, but don’t fully know what the impact of that is for the businesses in the area, if any. If I sound ignorant about any of the above, apologies. Brazil’s a beautiful country and I am looking forward to this trip andhope to enjoy it as much as possible, even if work is an inherent part of it. Also, extending the trip for personal travel won’t work (many friends have suggested it), our travel policy is pretty strict and the stress of arranging anything outside of the business trip would not be worth it, better to plan an alternate personal trip to explore the rest of Brazil.

  213. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Who has two thumbs and just had a great interview for that great state position that she’s been waiting on for forever? THIS GIRL! The person who took me up to the interview was actually the friend who told me about the opening in first place, and when he came down to collect me he told me (with a huge grin) that every other interview was a total dud, and the people doing the hiring (including his boss’s boss) had just been discussing it. So he told them that they were about to interview someone awesome who wouldn’t be a dud. And friends? I definitely WAS NOT a dud! I think I did great! And while I’ve interviewed for a few other state positions previously, this is the very first time I’ve been asked to preemptively sign the release to check my references. I don’t want to count my chickens before they hatch, but I feel like I really might get the offer!

    And now I’m going to go and sleep for a million years, because all of the stress that I so successfully managed prior to the interview suddenly showed up and made me insaaaaaaaanely tired.

    2. Anon Phd*

      Yaay for you!!! Also – your post (or was it an email Alison answered ?, I forget) some time ago about working as a property manager at that insane building gave my dad and I some side splitting laughs. He used to be a property manager at a pretty wacky apartment building.

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Hahahaha, I’m glad y’all were entertained–I’m sure your dad has some pretty amazing stories, when you make it to manager level you have normally Seen Some Things (even if you haven’t worked on a Hellmouth).

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        It wound up being my smoothest Interview Day ever! I’m not sure how the stars aligned so perfectly, but from the time I got up to even when I left the interview (the building is downtown and there is a lot of construction, arbitrary one way streets, places-where-traffic-lights-are-being-replaced-and-our-terrible-drivers-are-just-being-trusted-to-do-the-right-thing, and train tracks that often seem to be occupied by trains only at the most inopportune of times–the fact that I made it to the garage across from the building where I was interviewing so smoothly and easily that I had a solid hour to keep going over my prep materials was a miracle, the fact that I then made it home quickly and easily BLOWS MY MIND) it was smooth sailing. I had a great hair day, I got complimented on my “sharp” outfit twice on my way into the building… I guess it was just my day.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Thank you so much! I’m really hopeful about my chances. I’m glad I’ve had a little time to adjust to working with normal-ish humans again first, though. I think I really needed that.

  214. Auntie Social*

    My boss is sure he’s a discovery expert–but he just texted me and asked what “PW” was. Sigh.

  215. Josie*

    I just got home from the E. R. – I fell this morning and broke my wrist. And I start my new job on Monday! I’m planning to assure them it won’t impact my job performance. I can still take notes as I’ll be in training and it’s my non-dominant hand. This is not how I pictured my first day on the new job! Does anyone have any other advice for my 1st day?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m sorry that you hurt yourself, I’m glad you got taken care of.

      You’re going to be fine! Go in there and acknowledge it right out of the gate, let them know that “Nasty spill last week but good news, not my writing hand!” Usually in most offices the most it’ll mean is that you’ll type slower but as long as you’re pretty well versed in them, it shouldn’t be that big of a hiccup.

      I’ve had some folks have some doosy’s for day one, if you’re upbeat and don’t act like “what cast?!” when you walk in or are totally despondent and show up pumped full of all the pain pills, I have a feeling just about everyone at your new job will be sympathetic to your injury.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You’re probably aware of it but people will probably use your injury to try to “Get to know you” and if you don’t feel like repeating the story or you are a private person, feel free to just say “Ah yeah this old thing, not much of a story about it!” and try to move on to something else. Most won’t be too put off by it if you keep it short but at the same time, if you are someone who doesn’t mind sharing the story or at least use it as a talking point, it can actually be an easier way to chat up your new colleagues.

  216. The New Wanderer*

    SNL just added three people to their cast for this season, including the first East Asian cast member. One of other new hires is being called out on Twitter etc for racist “jokes” from a podcast as recent as last year (using Asian slurs and mocking accents, no less), but with a longer history of being offensive to various non-white-hetero-male groups. His Twitter response from yesterday is the worst kind of non-apology, saying (paraphrased) that he’s a boundary-pushing comedian who takes risks to be funny, sorry if anyone is actually offended.

    I hope they dump him ASAP. Not just because of social justice reasons (which are certainly sufficient), but also because truly, if you have to resort to pushing PC boundaries and insulting Others, you aren’t funny. Sure, humor is subjective and SNL isn’t like high art or anything, but really? Picking the guy who still thinks “Me so solly” (h/t Krusty the Klown) is not only okay but counts as humor? Don’t hire people who are objectively bad at the job.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      YIKES! Recent and still fully embracing this nonsense is what stands out the most. I know that you can dig up bad life choices on most comedians out there but most have also grown the ef up and developed real material in the meantime. This tired boring white man, what a treat.

      The good thing is it’s an entire cast, some with more pull than others. So hopefully they flush him out from within if the hiring jabronis don’t axe him on their own. The writers will struggle to use a person who can’t diversify themselves in the long run unless they’re really itching for a stereotypical chucklehead.

    2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      Dude, I have been so pissed about this. I have no idea how this guy seemed like a good pick for a highly competitive gig.

      1. Auntie Social*

        I don’t know either but they’re going to hear from me. My family looks like the model UN, and we’re ALL offended.

  217. lailaaaaah*

    I’ve been at my current job a year and a half, and I was at the job before that for a little under half a year (the company folded). Old job was stressful, but never boring. Now, I struggle to get through each day. The job is easy- so much so that I usually get through my to-do list by lunch and spend the rest of the day messing around on skillshare/watching YouTube courses on things related to my field, but not directly helpful for my current role.

    I’ve done everything I can to stave off boredom. I’ve come up with a training guide to every single thing I do, to the point where someone could probably walk in off the street and do my job with them. I’ve compiled extra training materials for the office intern, gone through all our files and categorised them in more efficient system, and got involved in companywide initiatives. I keep coming up with ways to improve my team’s current processes, but they’re always shot down as ‘change is not a priority right now’, and I have to get sign-off from both my manager and hers before I can implement anything.

    I don’t want to look like a job hopper, but I am bored out of my mind here. Do I take the plunge and start looking elsewhere? Or do I wait it out a while longer?

    1. Colette*

      Have you specifically told your manager you don’t have enough to do? That would be my first step.

      But at 1.5 years in, I think you’re ok to start looking.

  218. Natalia*

    I share an office with three women who constantly complain, give other workers attitude and mouth off. I by mistake gave a bit of attitude to my boss and I got in trouble. But, with these other three women people seem to let it slide. They say things I would never dream of saying to co workers or superiors. But, why do I feel like I’m the only one who can’t get away with rudeness? I’m not saying anyone should be rude or have attitude…but why am I the only one in the office getting called out for it..shouldn’t everyone be held to the same standards?

    1. Colette*

      Everyone should be expected to treat their coworkers (and other people they encounter) with respect.

      At the same time, someone else behaving badly does not give you a license to behave badly, and you don’t always know what is going on with someone else (including whether they’ve also been told to cut it out).

    2. Anon Librarian*

      I have no advice, but I often find myself in the same boat – being held to higher standards than other people. I finally realized that it’s probably a compliment. I’m probably held to higher standards because people look up to me and see positive things in me. I’m looking at it from that angle now.

  219. Done with ths place*

    Two things this week hit me pretty hard. I’m a project Manager in a very male dominated organization. All of the upper management are friends that play hockey together and went to university together and all of that. I am not breaking into the group and I doubt I’ll ever be invited to one of their after work events. Fine, whatever. This week a group of high level clients that I have worked with on multiple projects were in town to discuss a new project and I didn’t find out to the day before, I wasn’t invited to dinner, I wasn’t invited to the meeting, and they didn’t invite me to lunch. I don’t think there was any malice there, but I think that just kind of forgot about me and my history with the client. Which was a bummer.

    The other thing was we are in the process of negotiation for additional funding on another project and I’ve been working on the numbers for weeks, while they’ve been dodging my calls, and was able to up with what I thought was a fair rate for the continuation of the project. In several meetings with my upper management, the client agrees to pay our hours and we will continue to support the project. He asked for a review of the hours with one of techs on site just to look them over and get an understanding of how the hours were spent. That’s fine, I’m open with our hours and our rates, I gave the tech the whole package to go over with him. When I call my tech and asked him how the meeting went, he said it went great and the client was really happy about our progress. I reported this to my boss and proceed to get the backup prepared for a signifact crane order for the rest of the project. I sent it yesterday, remind him the meeting went well and we’d like to continue operating as partners and all of that. This is when I found out that the field team was a little less than honest with me about how the meeting went and how bad my relationship with client has apparently gotten. The client was not happy with our hours and didn’t trust me specifically and he wants to do an audit before he’ll release any funding, total 180 of the call we had and the situation the my field guy reported. I don’t know if my field guys was trying to spare my feelings or push me into shitty situation by holding back the info that the clients pissed, maybe don’t send that change order. My boss is standing by me, but I might be pulled from thos project

  220. Burned out*

    I’m burned out. It’s so hard to do my job when I have to hand hold someone else too. How do I stay sane until I can switch departments?

    Background:
    I work on a team of just me and another coworker. He is not my boss, but I work under the supervision of him because of our licenses. Im just been struggling because even though he’s above me and should be the leader of the team, he’s not.

    I am.

    Nice guy, but he lacks attention to detail and he doesn’t communicate well. He doesn’t respond well to criticism. Trying to get him to change the simplest procedure that is different than how he has done something for years is met with confusion and unease. He forgets to do things he’s supposed to a lot so then it falls on me to have to either remind him over and over like a broken record or I sometimes just fix it myself.

    His peers are tired of it as well. They’ve even said to me that when that coworker is off and they have to cover him that they dread it because all they do it fix his mistakes. They also say I’m carrying my team.

    Management has been informed of mistakes by other peers many times, but not much has been done. He’s usually talked to about it and some of it resolved for it to revert back to the way it was before.

    1. Colette*

      So you have 3 options:
      – quit and get a new job somewhere else
      – live with the way he is
      – stop carrying him and let stuff fail

      How long until you’re licensed yourself?

      1. Burned out*

        Thanks for replying Colette! I do have a license, but not as advanced as him and I’d have to go back to school to get a different degree to be on the same level. I’ve tried to stop carrying him, but when it comes to people’s safety, it’s hard to just let stuff pass. I’m going to be transferring to another department soon, but it cannot come soon enough!

  221. Handling anxiety*

    I’ve had a lot of things going on medically and emotionally at home. Work hasn’t been great either with a lot of added stress. How do you go about handling severe anxiety in the workplace?

    1. TBDee*

      For me, it helps to take breaks. I make a point to leave my desk after a few hours, walk outside or find a quiet place to decompress. I also listen to positivity/meditation podcasts and use ASMR apps (rain sounds, nature, soft music) with my headphones. A friend recommended journaling and it definitely helps to have a place to vent and unpack whatever is bothering you. I use an app called Daylio but there’s tons of other ones out there.

  222. Tired*

    For of you who remembered me, it’s me the “close friend recruited me to work in a company her foreign boss told her to make locally and it was the worst decision of my life because my friend is a super shite boss” tired soon-to-resign, wears-all-the-hats girl. Turned out my boss friend and her boss is flying down here in October together, so I can give verbal resignation in front of them both! I’m still confused on what to tell them why though, because the real reason is because I am done with being the dirty worker (i was given no SOP, training, or anything, and even our product is not well prepared, and had to do Everything alone whilst the fly back to the other country). I’m severely underpaid, not even making half of what a manager’s supposed to make (my position here is the chief operating officer).

    I’m very sure they will ask my reason, and I don’t know if it’s good to tell the real reason (filtered down to the bare truth, that my working situation is taking its toll on my mental health, despite already voicing my request and desire for a fair wage) or if I should just give the generic reasons (which will probably make me look irresponsible and/or weak-willed to this foreign man who only hear information about the local business from my friend’s mouth). Thoughts please?

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      I’d keep it very short and professional, leave the mental health part out. You realize your salary is not in line with the local industry standard and the work is not in line with the job title.

      Is he coming specifically to take your resignation?

      2. Tired*

        Very true, I discussed with some friends and decided to say something along the line of “I have reasons that I would be happy to elaborate, but the conclusion is that I am looking for a job where I am more involved in the management, a job where I know the inner working of the product so I can do my job more effectively.” I think it’s open enough that if he wants me to elaborate then I would, but if not then I’ll leave it at that.

        No, he’s coming here for a friend wedding, I haven’t told my friend or anyone else in the office about my resignation.

        1. Anono-me*

          I would not even include the offer to elaborate. Just paraphrase Thankful’s comment and get out. If the big boss cares, there are enough red flags to cause him to ask questions. If he doesn’t care, he won’t ask, no matter how obvious it is.

          1. Tired*

            The big boss only heard updates of the office from my boss; he doesn’t speak good English, and he trusts my boss friend even though I know she’s given several very wrong insight into the local market that even he went “huh? For real?” But yeah, we will probably be having a dinner when I turn in my resignation, and I keep thinking that it would be awkward if I just go without giving proper explanations about my resignation, especially when they recruited me without formal interview and anything. I also don’t want to seem incompetent or unreliable with my responsibilities… /o\

  223. Trainerdrone*

    Im training an employee in my department who has trained at similar departments before coming to me. I’ve trained many people before, but I feel more frustrated than normal because this is proving harder than I thought. The person seems to lack attention to detail and I feel like I have to repeat myself many times and things are still being forgotten. I’m even sitting right next to them and say this needs to be done and they still forget. In my job there are so many steps, so it’s very easy to make even the smallest mistake. Sometimes I can’t keep track on everything that I’ve said multiple times so accidentally I let some get by me because I thought it was done. Any advice?

      1. Forge Me Not*

        Make this person take notes. Just say something like “This procedure is complicated / has so many steps. You might want to take notes”. and just wait until they get a pen and paper. Writing down things you see in your words does help to remember ime.

        1. Thankful for AAM*

          As forget me not said, make them take notes. But then when they ask a question, direct them to their notes to see what it says.

    2. Llama Face!*

      I see my former trainee has moved on to you. Hopefully your version is more successful than mine! One thing I tried was making them write notes and then refer back to their notes first when they had a question (instead of me just answering the same thing repeatedly). If they are able to improve this can help. I also made some step-by-step training sheets for common processes so they could go through in order and not miss anything.

  224. Wilhelmina Constance*

    So… twist on my happy promotion.
    My boss is being fully supportive – I don’t know who said what to her, but she’s now being the boss I wish she’d been for the past two years (and then maybe I wouldn’t have been so actively looking to get out of her team!). She’s set up a project transitioning my work over to the other three people in the team while she recruits for my replacement.
    Important point – we’ve only just recently grown by an extra person, so it’s not like they’re going to be overworked, plus I’ll be taking at least three responsibilities with me. It’s just the routine stuff that they already do, they’ll be doing more of (and to a more advanced level; this was always going to be part of their development plan, so they could provide cover for absences etc. – now they just have to do it for real for a month or two).

    The newest member of the team was nonplussed. They’re not really getting any of my work, they’ll be getting a few extra bits and pieces from the other two (the next level of basic tasks)
    The oldest member of the team said “Congratulations! You couldn’t have waited til I retired next year?!” Which was said absolutely in jest, taken in the spirit in which it was meant and I know she genuinely feels pleased for me.
    The third one…. worries me. He’s gone into absolute Def Con 1 panic mode. He spent the vast majority of his initial training relying on asking me questions on every part of the task, and I thought I’d gotten his confidence up to a level where he engages his brain and at least makes an attempt before asking for help. Now he’s straight back to square one, or even square zero. It’s as if he’s forgotten even the most basic tasks (not even industry specific tasks – he’s now asking me for troubleshooting help because the printer won’t print, something he didn’t even need to do during initial training!). And he’s decided he needs to give me a running commentary on *everything* he’s doing – which obviously means he’s constantly interrupting my work.

    We haven’t even started the transition project yet and I’m dreading trying to get through to him to a) think for himself again or b) remembering to ask our boss, not me for help. There’s a small drawback with b). My boss is entering her busy period where she’s in a lot of very important meetings. Add in interviews for my replacement (in about three weeks – industry standard unfortunately) and we’re unlikely to see her. We normally cope with not being in communication for more than 15 minutes in a day, but this whole panic thing, plus the deadline of the transition has thrown me.
    Any ideas?

  225. NatureSu*

    What a week! My non-profit organization laid off (fired?) an in-touch, successful director with no warning and poor explanation. This is the 2nd time in 6 months that they’ve let someone go in the name of “restructuring” and “saving money”. I’m so upset by all this. I can’t tell if I’m angry, or sad to lose a mentor, or scared that they’ll lay off our team next, or just furious that our ED thought it was a good idea to spontaneously remove an integral part of the organization.*

    The person they most recently let go was one of the few people at her level of management that truly embodied the mission of our organization, and was in touch with what was going on in all departments. She mentored so many of us, and I learned a lot from her.

    *Maybe it wasn’t spontaneous, but it felt that way to us on the ‘outside’. Maybe there’s something more going on, it seems startlingly disconnected to even consider this change.

  226. Breast Solidarity*

    Quick question about FMLA, based on what I learned here.

    I finally got my FMLA approved and this coming week will be taking it as unpaid leave (had to get approval from CEO for that but it ended up being a non-issue — YEA!)

    BUT it seems like while I am out they are not supposed to contact me? I am hoping to log in everyday to do basic putting-out fires stuff and have also given my home phone to need-to-know staff so they can call me for emergencies. I am a new manager, and honestly, this is far less stressful to me to put out small daily fires as they happen (mostly not true emergencies, but stuff that is better handled on a daily basis and not made to sit for a week). Is anyone going to get in trouble for this?

    If I put in a full hour a day I can just put in for only 7 hours out, but an hour is the smallest increment we can take/not take. I think most days 30 minutes would be the most I would expect to put in.

    So far everyone on my team, including my boss, is being very supportive. I can’t help but feel guilty though because even when I am at work I am far from normally productive.

      2. Clisby*

        I’m retired now, but what you said was my understanding also. If you’re on FMLA, you can’t have anything to do with work.

  227. Decima Dewey*

    This month my library system has been having its yearly job class meetings. Mine was on Wednesday. Basically an update from several departments. I have to say, I heard a lot “Well, I don’t know X off the top of my head…” Well, why don’t you? These meetings happen every year. The dates were announced back in June or July. Why didn’t you take some time to consider what questions staff would be likely to ask. For example, we’re moving to a new payroll system. The question “what do you do when you get locked out of your personal account in New Payroll System?” or “what is the tentative date for Project Y to begin?” should have answers to them, right?

    I’m still working on pushing back on things Mr. Lastname wants me to do. He’d like me to keep track of other staff member’s arrival times, the length of the lunch hours they take, and whether or not the guard is properly reporting the time he takes to pick up his kindergarten age daughter on the timesheet. I’ve told Mr. Lastname that, according to the union, keep track of staffer’s time is a Branch Manager responsibility. In other words, his, not mine. He agreed, but said he’d ask Grandboss if I could do this when he wasn’t at the branch. Given his trainings, his illnesses, his custody issues with his young daughter, this is a loophole you could fit an aircraft carrier into. I am in charge when he’s out for whatever reason, and I am dependent on the goodwill of my coworkers to keep the branch open. I will lose said goodwill if I’m running to Mr. Lastname to report that they came in 2 minutes late or took 2 extra minutes for lunch.

    Oddly enough, I have the backing of my coworkers: they think that if Mr. Lastname wants to know who’s late and who’s taking too long a lunch, he can be here to see for himself.

    1. Anono-me*

      I think if Mr. Lastname wants you to do manager stuff, you should ask for a temporary promotion for that day and to be paid an hourly rate at a manager rate of pay each day that he wants you to do it. Once the special category of funds have to be justified, the importance of having you do this will probably drop dramatically.

      (These figures are just off the top of my head; but say you make $20 per hour and Branch Managers like Mr. Lastname make $70k a year, you should make $30 per hour for the entire day, each day that you are asked to do this.)

      As far as the job class situation. Can you suggest that next year, people summit questions in advance and the class leaders should be prepared to answer the top 5 or so?

  228. TBDee*

    Is it normal to have managers in name only?

    I’ve been at my current job for about a year now (first one out of school), and the way management is set up seems bizarre. My peers and I all agree that there seems to be two distinct types of managers in the company: “real” managers and faux-managers.

    “Real” managers here are salaried, receive commission/bonuses, get benefits, have their own reserved parking spot, and usually only come into the office for a few hours a week. They’re often invited to excursions and company-sponsored events organized by our boss (the rest of us are not invited). They have the final say on decisions about projects but always delegate the actual work to others.

    “Faux” managers are paid hourly, don’t get bonuses or commission, and are in the office full time like of rest of the hourly staff. Most of them started out with a non-management title (e.g. accountant, designer, customer service representative) but somewhere down the line our bosses started referring to them (mostly in communication to clients) with upgraded titles (e.g. Accounting Manager, Art Director, Customer Service Manager). All of them have told me it happened out of the blue, they didn’t have any say in it, and received no additional compensation or perks with the new title. They did however find that whenever issues came up in their department they were expected to take responsibility and find solutions despite the problem usually being caused by a bad decision making or planning by a “real” manager.

    This has really started to bother me since I became aware of it. What makes it worse is the fact that all of the “real” managers are men and they are close friends with the boss. The “faux” managers are all women. At best it feels unfair. At worst it feels deeply sexist and allows the “real” managers to reap the benefits of a “faux” manager’s work.

    I’ve started job searching for obvious reasons, but is this something that happens in other, “normal” companies? Is this something I can report?

    1. Clever username goes here*

      It sounds like the ‘fake’ managers’ promotions are a strategy for your company to save money. For example, I am a functional manager – no direct reports, department of one type of thing. However, I’m salaried, with benefits, and I do in fact ‘manage’ – things more than people. If I was one of those people, I’d be pretty annoyed at the increase in responsibility without a corresponding increase in compensation.

  229. Stephanie*

    I don’t know if this will be seen or not, but I will try. I was recently assigned by my boss (VP) to be a project manager for the implementation of a new program we will be using. I have never been a project manager before, and I am unsure about how to go about making sure people will do what I need for them to do, especially since I am not their manager, just the manager of this project. I have read Allison’s posts about similar situations, but I would love to hear from others about what worked for you. I am also looking for advice about anything related to being a project manager, since that is not something I have ever done.

  230. I Can't Tell You Nothing No More!!!*

    I am going to change the scenario of my post because of concern someone will see it.

    There was a call from a associate manager to the VP regarding an upcoming meeting. The meeting only included the directors, a few business managers and two support staff members. He asked who coordinated the meeting and who was attending. I had the feeling that he should have been invited when coordinating with the VP, but he decided that he didn’t want to invite them. The decision was based on who he works for and that director had a similar meeting that the associate attended. So I gave my VP a heads up and told him not to repeat it. We discussed how to approach it with associate and he was on board. Then he told him!! When I addressed it with him, he claims he forgot (don’t believe he did) and can’t understand why he did that. We discussed via text and I said in all caps not to bring it up. While I am not angry, I am disappointed. If he expects me to be his eyes and ears, I have to be able to trust him to not throw me under the bus like that.

    Are my expectations set too high? Feeling like I have to be careful about what I tell him.

    1. I'd Like To Be Anon Right Meow*

      I’ve been in this position with my VP but he’s never thrown me under the bus! It’s understood that, for whatever reason, people just…tell me things. Usually I will repackage, sanitize, and anonymize the information but it’s a way for him to know what his reports (and their reports) REALLY think of a situation without outing anyone or putting anyone on the spot.

      More than once, he’ll say, “Who said that?” or “Who told you that?” and I have to remind him that people tell me things, yes, but if they think I’m going to tell him what they said and who said it…people will stop telling me things right quick.

      He understands this, at least. I think sometimes a piece of information will be surprising and he reverts to an OMG WHO SAID THAT?!?!?! before remembering that I won’t tell him anyway.

  231. I'd Like To Be Anon Right Meow*

    So this is buried, and I doubt anyone will see it, but I want to write it down anyway because I’m conflicted!

    I like my job, I like my boss, I like my company, I like my pay. Every now and then, in a fit of pique or curiosity (or maybe both), I’ll apply to jobs and see what happens.

    Usually, I don’t hear anything back, or I’ll get a phone screen and they’ll be aghast at my salary requirements (salaries vary wildly for the job that I do). I purposely set the salary high because it would take a major bump for me to move.

    I liken it to throwing your profile up on Tinder just for giggles and maybe an ego boost. The business version of “Am I still pretty?”, so to speak..

    EXCEPT SOMEONE ACTUALLY SWIPED RIGHT (again, so to speak)

    I got a phone interview that went really well, for a job that I would really like doing, that’s only a few minutes from my current office (so I know the commute), in a company that’s growing like gangbusters, and when I quoted my (usually aghast-making) salary requirements, the recruiter didn’t even miss a beat.

    “That’s totally in line with what we offer for that position.” /jawdrop/

    Guys, at the low end, it would be a 16% raise for me, at the high end, it would be 23%. The PTO policy is good (unlimited, within reason), the health benefits are good from what I can tell on the internet, the 401k match is very high, and they’re big on work/life balance according to the recruiter. Given that these days, it feels like all I do is work at work, when when I get home, work on the weekends, work when ________, I’d be a fool to pass this up, right?

    I’m putting the cart before the horse as I don’t even have a face-to-face yet (I’ll know by EOD Tuesday, I was assured) but now I’m feeling…guilty? Presumptuous? I’ve only been at my job for a year but it feels like forever. I genuinely, genuinely like everything about my company except the pace (and some niggling concerns for the future that I can’t enumerate because I’ll out myself).

    Now that someone has shown interest, I’m halfway in the “Naaah, I was just playing” mindset and it bothers me. The money would be a huge boon as well as the other benefits I listed.

    Why am I being so wishy-washy about this?

    1. NoLongerYoung*

      Wishy washy – maybe- because of fear. (that would be my response). Because what if you get your hopes up, and they don’t want you? (Rejection…). What if you take the job and it isn’t as great as it seems (more fear). It’s hard … but this is where you can (hopefully) talk through what those fears are – pull them out of your psyche, look at them in the cold light of day, and say…. yeah, but … I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it (or whatever you need to say/ however you need to talk to yourself).

      At the end of the day, my fear has stopped a lot of positive things, masquerading as caution, and lots of other words.

      You can do this. I hope you see this. You have a great list of positives. I’d confront and deal with the hidden fears (again, this is just me) and I’ll bet that there’s a lot shorter list of things – and none of them concrete – to be in that negative column.

    2. Bigglesworth*

      It sounds like you’re facing a “Devil you know vs. the devil you don’t” syndrome. Depending on your work history (one year isn’t a long time to be somewhere) and industry, this may be a good bump up for your long-term salary goals. Additionally, you sounds like you’re in the ideal position to really interview this company if you get asked to attend a follow-up interview. Really make sure the culture is good. Treat this like you would any other job interview and see what happens. The best time to job hunt is when you’re not running away from a dumpster fire. Sounds like a good opportunity!

      I will say that where I work right now has an unlimited vacation policy, but that typically means that people take less vacation – not more. Employees are really good at figuring out when to spend time off if they have perimeters to work within. No perimeters = no idea how much is tonight much or too little. For example, I know I can’t take as much time off as my boss because 1) I would be fired, and 2) I have way too much work to do. He’s the firm owner/partner (it’s a law firm) and he promotes unlimited vacation time as a perk.

  232. Anon Librarian*

    This is for all the managers and supervisors.

    Note to readers: Dysfunctional families, etc. Possibly upsetting.

    When I was a kid, most teachers thought less of me because my family was dysfunctional and not well off financially. I was the “bad kid with the bad parents.” The “good kids from good families,” were offered support with finding jobs and encouraged to apply to good colleges. I was considered an embarassment to the school because I was neglected and abused and we just couldn’t afford nice clothes or food or anything. I was given the message that because of this, I made the school look bad, so I shouldn’t aim too high in life.

    I realized that even at the age of 40, I’m still stuck with the belief that companies only want to hire people from “good” families and that you have to pretend to have a wonderful family in order to get anything in life. Which creates problems because then people assume that problems my family created for me are my own fault, and I have to hide a lot or even lie. It always creates an impression that gets worse over time. (I’ll offer examples below as I understand this could be hard to visualize.)

    But look at this site. There are TONS of posts from people who come from abusive homes but have careers. Some are involved in management or hiring. So I probably don’t need to distort the truth. I can probably relax about this a bit. But how?

    Like most people, I don’t like to talk about overly personal things at work. But because I look extremely young, I tend to get a lot of questions about my family of origin. “Where do your parents live?”, “What are you doing for the holidays – family plans?”, etc. These questions tend to come with the assumption that because I’m nice and professional and doing good things with my life, “Your parents must be great too and I want to know about them!” It puts me in an awkward position.

    But I think I need to get more comfortable saying things like, “I don’t have family,” or “We don’t talk,” or, “That’s a difficult topic, one I’d rather not discuss at work.” Unfortunately, when I’ve tried that, the response so far has been for people to assume that my parents are still Great People and I must be unappreciative or that there’s an ideological issue that has come between us and they can FIX IT! They ask if it’s about religion or if they don’t approve of my lifestyle or if I was “bad” when I was younger and we haven’t reconciled. And no. They committed crimes against me and I was never able to get justice, unfortunately. And I don’t want to say that at work, but I don’t think I have to lie and misrepresent things either.

    I’m interested to hear from everyone. But especially for those in leadership roles where people report to you, what do you think of this topic? Is it possible to come from a less than ideal family and still be accepted as a professional? What are the best ways for one to handle the questions that inevitably come up?

    And to give an example of the situation I mentioned above, imagine I get asked a common family questions and gloss over things. Then it comes out that I’m also dealing with housing instability. The real reason is that a parent stole from me and damage was done to my credit score. But I don’t say that, so it’s assumed to be my own fault. Stuff like that. If it’s bad enough, there will be issues that your co-workers end up finding out about. It gets increasingly hard, over time, to avoid or misrepresent the topic.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      I work in a library, not a manager though. The longer I work here, the more I realize just how many people have dysfunctional families. But I dont find too many people asking adults about their parents; that might be more common in other parts of the country? I only know the issues I know about coworkers after knowing them for a long time and building up a level of trust.

      I think if people ask about your parents you could just say, they still live in x town and dont leave it much. If they ask about seeing them on holidays, no, I wont see them this holiday, or they will be at x place for holiday. If they ask why you are not seeing them, you can say it was relatives turn or yeah, we don’t all get together often in my family. If your housing comes up, say, a relative stole from me and left me in a bad place if you want to, or just, a family issue has caused some instability for me but its getting better!

      In other words, there is no need to volunteer any information, keep it short and simple as it appears giving much info or flat out saying you don’t want to go into it has backfired for you.

      Once you say any of the above, turn it back to them and ask about their family or a work topic.

      I’m so sorry you were treated that way in school!

      1. valentine*

        People are intensely uncomfortable when you tell them your parents were awful, especially if you give details because, if their parents were the same, they now have to push back or feel disloyal or suffer cognitive dissonance because they can’t think of their parents as awful, much less abusive (bonus if they are “Let me tell you what real abuse is” parents).

        So. You can say, “Oh, I’m not big on talking about my family,” with an optional “but I like hearing about yours.” I had a friend who used to say our plans were “Nothing exciting,” which I thought was a perfect deflection. You can also be noncommittal: “We’ll see/Who knows/Nothing’s set yet.”

        If you’re wanting to bond with people over similar backgrounds, I don’t think that’s likely, and certainly not at work. You don’t have to share your financial troubles and even a vague mention that family members defrauded you won’t go over well.

      2. Anon Librarian*

        This is the way I’ve been handling it so far. It isn’t working. The reason is that as I get to know people who I’m working with, other information comes out about my life, and avoiding the topic just isn’t workable.

        I do get asked about my parents a lot. I’m 40. In fact, I was recently asked by a realtor who was going to sell the rental property I was moving out of, “Where are your parents? Why are you here alone? You need to be with your family.” As if I was 15 or so. That’s not an isolated incident. More commonly, people just ask where they live and what they do for a living. The same way children get asked that question.

        I, apparently, look really young. People also get upset that I drive a car and have a job that is normal for a person of my age. It’s awkward because I think it’s partly due to a medical thing that I don’t want to talk about and partly because I take good care of my health. I feel very humble-braggy if I bring it up directly. (“Hey co-workers! I’m old, but I’m cursed with looking youthful!” – that would NEVER go well.)

        I don’t think it’s regional for me; I’ve gotten this all over the U.S.

        Back to the original topic. I’m not looking for ways to answer the kinds of questions that come up initially – that’s the easy part! I guess I just want some kind of assurance that I don’t have to completely hide it and borderline lie about it all the time.

        Thank you for your post! I appreciate it.

        1. MatKnifeNinja*

          People with “normal” families ask the most intrusive questions sometimes.

          I tell just enough it isn’t a flat out lie, but enough I don’t have TMI or flat out shut the conversation down.

          Remember it’s small talk. People want to feel connected. Yeah, I know.

          Vacations? Parents are into staycations and are “working around the house.” Now the staycation maybe be adding to the Hoardville or getting hammered on the couch, but it’s still at home.

          Don’t see visit face to face because your sibs are awful humans? They’re busy and doing fine. Fine as in still alive and breathing.

          Retired always works well for parents at your age too.

          I have a feeling you might be coming across cagey/defensive, and people who want tea are willing to unpeel the onion (you).

          My family is a tire fire sprayed with napalm, and I had the same nonsense growing up as you.

          There are different small talk levels. If this is hi/good bye/how’s your weekend level, the above has always worked for me. Almost no one digs past it.

          I don’t think it’s because you look young. Your body language and tone of voice is signaling to the I Need Tea crew there is more behind the “fine”, and those vultures are willing to dig.

          I share just enough with coworkers to make them happy. They really don’t know me, which is totally fine. My coworkers aren’t my therapists, so I’m not spilling my guts about the crazies at home.

        2. Clisby*

          This seems really odd. I’m 65, and can’t remember anybody asking me about my parents once I got out on my own at almost 21. I mean just out of the blue; when I took time off from work to be with my mother while my father had heart bypass surgery, I did have people ask how he was doing.

          1. Anon Librarian*

            That’s helpful to hear. It is odd. I dress and act my age. I think it has to do with some weird body stuff, unfortunately. That’s the only explanation that makes sense. Ableism and/or misunderstandings related to that stuff.

            I can’t imagine asking a 40-year-old where their parents are. I wouldn’t ask anyone that question unless I had a good reason to assume they were under 16 and dangerously unsupervised.

            I actually decided to start explaining to future employers and collaborators what the deal is (medical thing + looking younger) before we start working together face to face. The day before, I’m going to send an email explaining that it’s a medical thing, purely physical in nature, and Not a Big Deal. Because 1) it will help to prevent misunderstandings, and 2) worst case, if anything gets weird, I’ll have evidence in writing that they knew better and therefore discriminated. I know it opens another can of worms, but it seems unavoidable at this point. Unfortunately, I’ve dealt with worse situations than being asked about my parents. Of course, that’s a separate story.

        3. Estranged too*

          I recently made the choice to cut off my family. It has been a relief. I grew up similar to you- bad, neglectful, and abusive parents- and it has certainly shaped who I am. I am not close to anyone at work, so my go-to lines are the “we aren’t close.” “This is year I am having a Friends-giving!” and then I ask them a question. I haven’t shared my history with any colleagues, but that isn’t the culture where I work. Also, I am a SR Director, so most of my contact is with VPs and up and my direct reports, and we just don’t do a lot of personal talking.
          I have been in very intense therapy for the last few months, trying to finally deal with a childhood I locked away deep inside me for over 40 years. The hardest part is letting go of the shame I feel because of who they are what they did to me.
          One other thing- I see in a follow up you posted that you are going to share a physical issue with someone before meeting them. You know your motivation for that, but I would be cautious of it. Good luck.
          Stay strong!

    2. Buu*

      Not a manager but someone with a ‘bad parent’ with whom I no longer speak. It’s not all that uncommon for people to act like this. Check out Captain Awkward’s blog there’s a phrase on that site ‘but faaaaaaamily!” which used frequently by the Captain and commenters on that site. It’s often used to apply to people being told to put up with their family but it applies here too.

      It’s taken a lot of therapy for me to get to the point where I can understand I was a kid and had no power and thus distance myself from the feelings of being bad. It’s still a work in progress.. But as an adult you do have the power to leave and avoid being exploited. You choose to get away and look what happened you have a house, car and career.
      At work perhaps deflect to emphasizing your agency, you had to get out of there to turn your life around and that’s it. If they push back reaffirm that if you hadn’t gotten out you wouldn’t be working there getting to know them. It makes things subtly awkward for them instead.

  233. Edith Keeler*

    I can’t seem to connect with my new boss. I’ve sort of known him for a few years, but only on a pretty surface level. He’s a VP, and works in a different office/state. We’re roughly the same age, only a couple years apart, and we’ve both been with the company about the same amount of time.

    I feel like I am not connecting with him, somehow. Our interactions are okay…. but awkward, and they are the same in person or on the phone. I’ve tried to get a feel for his body language when we’re in person…. but he’s a really stiff gut. He’s very nice, and we have periodic phone meetings while I transition to my new role…. but it just feels really awkward. There will be these silences on the phone, and sometimes I think he might be distracted by an email or something on his end… but I really don’t think that’s it.

    I’ve thought about just coming at him head on and saying I feel like we’re not connecting somehow… but that doesn’t feel quite right given him, and our organization. I really don’t think it’s me: I was in a meeting this week with people above him—his bosses—and I feel like I connect with them just fine.

    I’m in a business where I manage people and deal with people one way or another all the time, and I never feel like this. I kind of want to just put it down to “that’s just how he is,” but I feel like if we continue to fail to “jell” it’s going to impact me down the line.

    And then again…. maybe it is me. I talked to one person I trust who used to work for him, and she had no similar feeling, thought they meshed fine. There’s no one else I feel comfortable talking about this with.

    Any suggestions?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It’s possible he just IS that way. Or it’s possible he is simply trying to maintain a superior/subordinate objective distance. Or perhaps he is just very busy and distracted. Hopefully he is not a checked-out type.
      I don’t think asking about “connecting” is quite the right tack here. However, you can and should ask how he prefers to receive updates. He might, for example, prefer more brevity, a list, a spreadsheet, or any number of things. Perhaps he even wants you to just handle most everything and only notify him of issues or decisions he needs to make?

      I’ve found that good managers at this level are less involved with the day-to-day issues and ongoing work and want higher level strategic updates and results. But you’ll need to find out what he wants by asking. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing if you feel you don’t fully mesh or aren’t close, as long as he is otherwise supportive of your decisions and work and trusts you’re doing your job. You don’t have to mesh to be on the same page!

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