open thread – September 6-7, 2019

by Alison Green on September 6, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. ChachkisGalore*

    I have an intern that just started and is absolutely killing it. He’s showing more intitiative (but the good kind, not the gumption kind) and better understanding of the work than several of the full time team members with years of experience.

    I’m re-working his internship plan to get him involved in some higher level work than originally planned and I’m looking through my list of “would be nice, but I’ll probably never get to” projects to find one or two that I could hand over to him and let him take the lead on.

    Any other ideas of what I could do for a really awesome intern? I never participated in any internships, so I’m basing my ideas on the types of things that I would have found beneficial in my entry level roles, but I’m not sure if there’s anything I’m missing that might be specific to what would be beneficial in an internship context.

    1. JustAnotherAlison*

      Help him start to network – either internally or externally. Learning oppertunities are great, but in the end what he will need someone to give him a job eventually :)

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Oh that’s great – thank you! My work does involve interacting with a lot of different people in the company of various levels – mostly over mundane things, but still, do you think having him start to take on some of that would be a good way to get some face time with people outside our dept? I think he has the interpersonal skills to handle it.

        Unfortunately we don’t have a lot of external networking opportunities, but every once in while I’ll attend half-day conferences or seminars. If any come up I’ll push to bring him.

        1. Kate*

          Give him as many experiences as you can. Bring him along to client meetings, presentations, whatever makes sense given the company – even if he won’t be participating much – give him exposure to as many different parts of the business as possible. He may tag along to a sales presentation and LOVE it. You never know. Also – ask him! Ask him if there are any areas of the business he’d like to explore, and then give him those opportunities. Then keep in touch – offer to be a reference for future roles, or connect him with others in your industry that might help him. Offer to take him to lunch with some contacts of yours, so he can meet them and broaden his own network! Kudos to you for doing as much as you can for him!

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          My work does involve interacting with a lot of different people in the company of various levels – mostly over mundane things, but still, do you think having him start to take on some of that would be a good way to get some face time with people outside our dept?

          Yes, these are exactly the types of things he needs to be taking on. Things that may seem mundane to you now are probably brand new to him, and since those tasks aren’t mission critical, this will give him the opportunity to learn the ropes without fear of screwing up something major. Plus, he’ll get the face time he needs with other department contacts, which can lead him to making connections that might land him a job later if your group doesn’t end up needing to hire when he’s finished with school.

          1. Mama Bear*

            Agreed. I loved that my boss for my internship brought me along to meet business people, and told me to go mingle at a gala I’d help set up. Also, make sure the intern leaves with references and/or portfolio work (if allowable).

      2. Lauren19*

        I wholeheartedly agree with this. Also get him a good understanding of how the business works. One of the most useful traits of a newer employee is that they understand our revenue system. Beyond teaching HR, marketing, sales, get him immersed in how you measure success, where growth comes from, why the strategy is the way it is. Understanding business at that level — any business — is widely transferable and valued in any position.

      1. Antilles*

        This.
        If this guy is doing so well that he’s actually outshining a couple full time team members, you definitely want to hire him on full-time after the internship…and you need to make sure that other people know that.

        1. ChachkisGalore*

          Unfortunately our internship program isn’t the type that’s a pipeline for roles in the company after completion (we’re a fairly small company so there’s just not that many, or necessarily any, entry level roles open at any given time).

          I am going to start quietly spreading the word so that if any do open up people know to keep him in mind.

          1. nhb*

            Just curious: why quietly? If he’s that great, sing his praises, and offer to be that reference for him when he needs it.

            1. ChachkisGalore*

              Well I’m definitely going to be loud about how great he is, but I just don’t want to get his hopes up that there will be a role for him at the company. We were very upfront in the interview process that while we strive to give them real world experience, that we rarely have open roles to offer at the end of the internship.

              1. Just J.*

                Ah, then who are your peers at other firms? Pass those contacts on to your intern. Or pass your intern’s name on to your contacts.

              2. Is it Friday yet?*

                The next best thing you can give him if you can’t help him get a job at your company is to be a reference for him as he’s applying to other jobs and offer your support in that way.

          2. Kiwiii*

            It may be worth it to double check if there’s any flexibility on that if he’s as impressive as you say, even if in a slightly different role or extending the internship if he seems interested in that. I just joined a fairly small company where my manager fought passionately to hire two people from the applicant pool because of the level of talent despite only technically having one role to fill. They hired me and then ended up hiring the second person as a contract employee (to pull funds from another part of the company and for about 25% less – she does about half the work I do and then some stuff we usually save for interns or really slow periods) for a couple months until our workload increases enough to offer her the job properly (which it will in about two months when we launch with a new client).

    3. Isabella*

      Coming from someone who had several amazing internships, here’s some of the things that helped for me! Any specific tool that they can put on their resume as having experience in is awesome. Definitely letting them take the lead on a project would be huge. If there’s a way to let them attend some higher level meetings to see the thought process behind those. But the biggest thing was showing me exactly what they changed in my work and why, so I could avoid making that mistake the next time!

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Oh this is really helpful! He just put together some stuff as the legwork for a project, it got sent to my boss (I made sure boss knew it came from intern). Boss made some minor tweaks and presented it to our dept head. I wasn’t sure if I should tell him about the minor tweaks, but I now I will. But will make sure he knows his work was excellent to start with.

        1. nonymous*

          For this particular scenario, the feedback is great for development and any hard numbers you can tie to the outcome is a terrific CV-builder. Especially if he is performing out of level – help him highlight that in quantifiable terms.

      2. MySherona*

        It’s also important to let them know HOW to put it on their resume. The language used in the industry and the metrics that are going to make it meaningful.

        1. Jake*

          That’s huge. For my best interns I always give an hour talk on how to market themselves to employers. The feedback I’ve gotten from departing interns is that this was off huge benefit for little commitment.

    4. Heidi*

      Ah, the joy of the intern who just gets it. I’d recommend having a discussion with the intern to try to figure out what types of projects are interesting to him. Giving him back burner projects is fine, and really helpful for an intern because a more senior person has vetted it for feasibility. But it would probably be even more rewarding if he can also work on projects that he is really invested in. Who knows, he might have some entirely new projects in mind already.

    5. PantaloonsOnFire*

      Depending on your level on influence and connections (and your intern’s timeline), see if you can help ease his transition from fantastic intern to fantastic employee–even if it’s not with your company. Introduce him to people who can help him grow his career, recommend him highly, strategize with him about how to phrase the work he’s doing on his resume, help him plan out a career in your industry (assuming he wants to stay there). Helping someone have a wonderful, growth-filled internship is invaluable. But the entire reason people have internships is so that they can eventually find jobs and careers. If he’s this amazing, see if you can help him not just with building skills and learning business norms but with actually getting solid, steady, rewarding employment.

      1. One of the Spreadsheet Horde*

        This is big. Talk to the intern about potential areas he’d like to learn about. Reach out to a couple of leaders in different areas of the company to see if they’d be interested in doing informational interviews over coffee or lunch with him. Help him start to visualize how his career could look at your company. At least in my company, leaders are very open to having informational meetings with interns so it’s something I encourage our interns to take advantage of.

    6. Thor*

      Would there be a position for him after he graduates? Keep that option open if you can. It’s so great you appreciate someone who works hard, it often doesn’t seem that managers care how hard someone works. Getting him some more challenging work seems awesome as it will be more beneficial for him than being stuck picking up lunch and dusting the office. Maybe meet with him and discuss those projects and see what he thinks about it, and be mindful of his time that he has for the internship and to not overload him. Be sure that it isn’t about giving him more work so he gets overwhelmed, but giving him better responsibilities. Give a glowing review if the school needs that kind of thing from you. And definitely tell him straight forward how much you appreciate his hard work. Being noticed and rewarded for his hard work will encourage his good habits, and he deserves to actually hear praise from his boss not just have work piled on.

      1. OtterB*

        “gumption” gets used on this site as shorthand for excessive initiative of the tone-deaf kind. Trying to get a job by arriving in the lobby with your resume in hand, trying to take over projects you’re supposed to be assisting with, disregarding instructions without discussing it with your boss because you’re sure you know a better way to do something and everyone will love your innovation, being overly pushy in general.

      2. M*

        “I thought the filing system for the Llama Grooming Invoices was confusing, so I’ve merged it with the Puffer Fish Extermination Reports! They’re now filed by geographic location!”

      3. Dwight*

        It’s site specific here, because there was once a letter that someone was over-zealously trying to steal someones job while they were on maternity leave by getting job specific training and experience on their own, for a role they weren’t going to have a chance at ever. The director thought the worker was showing “gumption”, so that’s where the term comes from.

        1. voyager1*

          I am really glad someone asked this, AAM is the only place where I have seen gumption used as a negative term except in political/societal debates.

          1. Clisby*

            Really? I’m 65 and to me it seems like a really anachronistic term. Like, you’re the newsboy who delivers Henry Ford’s newspaper every day and who all of a sudden encounters the great man, launches into a speech about how cars will change the world, and gets hired at Ford Motor Co. on the spot.

          2. TechWorker*

            I’m uncertain whether you mean you don’t hear it a lot, or you hear it and it’s usually positive. Maybe some cultural differences at play, but I think I’ve almost always heard it used negatively (and no, AAM is not my main reference). Meaning similar to ballsy/audacious. Though ‘no gumption’ means ‘stupid’ or ‘naive’ so idk what happened to the English language there :D

          1. voyager1*

            Yeah I tend to agree with AAM in that response, gumption is more to me like showing serious initiative and not giving up on something. But initiative can turn to rudeness though very quickly when one doesn’t know when to holdback.

        3. Middle School Teacher*

          I always think of the letter about the person who said she was “fired for showing initiative” when what she actually did was go over her boss’ head to the grand boss.

    8. Nadja*

      Ask them what sort of things they aspire to do professionally one day and try to figure out a project where they can get related experience under their belt.

    9. Mainely Professional*

      Make sure that you’re giving him projects he can potentially “take away” and show as part of a professional portfolio/describe with real ownership on his resume. Work samples are really helpful for young professionals.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yes – I cannot stress this enough. I was a journalism major who also did marketing communications work for a visitors and convention bureau during my co-op, and having really solid clips was so important during interviews.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Think about any industry jargon initiatives in your company that you can expose him to. For example, if you’re on a kaizan or SixSigma project, let him sit in on some meetings to get the feel for the back&forth, and discuss with him afterwards.
      If he’s working in a department with a formal SOP and those procedures have drifted out of date, ask him to mark up a copy with differences that people have pointed out during his onthejob training.
      I saw below that you’re a small company — but sometimes small companies have the flexibility to create an entry-level position when an excellent person comes along. So point out this intern to the highest ranking person you know in the C-suite, and tell them it’s the first intern (out of X interns in Y years) that you’re this excited about.

    11. Mazzy*

      I have to ask, is the intern paid? I wouldn’t want you getting in trouble giving unbunpaid intern real work

      1. Eshrai*

        I actually came to ask this myself. Unpaid interns should not be producing any real work for the business, they should be learning primarily. Paid interns are different though. I can’t help myself with this! Too many years as an auditor.

    12. Officious Intermeddler*

      I like the idea of the “nice, but I won’t get it it” list–I had an internship in law school where I got the chance to work on stuff like that, and my boss at the time liked how things were going and kept me on after the summer as a part-time hourly worker whenever I could fit things in. The projects got done, and got done much more quickly than they would have, and even though that wasn’t the kind of place where they could or would hire someone right out of school, I got a taste of the kind of work I’d do in a job like that and also the kind of independence you need to be a good worker when you’re just starting out. So anyway, maybe campaign for part-time hourly work for the intern after the internship ends, if possible? The best things you can give an intern, IMO, are (1) clear expectations, (2) good pay, and (3) a great reference, and it sounds like maybe you can achieve those.

    13. BetsyTacy*

      Somebody who supervised me for an internship set up a series of meetings with higher level staff in different departments just so I could meet them, ask questions, and basically have a super informal informational interview.

      It was amazing to get that 20-30 minutes of face time and just… get that type of exposure.

    14. Person of Interest*

      I always have at least one project that my intern can lead and do fairly independently – it’s usually a research and writing project for which we have past models and templates (so they have lots of guidance), and I end up finalizing it after they leave (for clean up and because it takes longer to complete than their internship), but they do the bulk of the work and can list it as an accomplishment and share the finished product as part of their portfolio.

    15. Anax*

      When I was an intern, I had a chance to sit in and observe our hiring process – our group had the whole small team present at phone and in-person interviews, and discussed how they felt about candidates afterward. That was really valuable to me – it pointed out some surprisingly common mistakes (like googling the answer during phone interviews), industry norms (‘most people dress business-casual for interviews, full suits read a little weird’), and eased my anxiety about the process.

      If it’s possible, that would be an awesome thing to let your intern in on too – though of course, if you’re trying to hire THEM, that might make things a little harder.

    16. Jadelyn*

      Help him get known to people other than you/your department. Bring him to meetings an intern wouldn’t normally be part of – not just for the learning experience of what he observes in the meetings, but so that he becomes a familiar face and name to people across the organization. After those meetings, if you’ve got time, you could debrief with him and help him calibrate his perception of what’s happening in those meetings (who was responsible for what, what the various goals of the people in the meetings were, etc), which is a skill that will help him for the rest of his career.

      For projects, stuff with concrete deliverables that he can point to on his resume later would be fantastic.

      And of course – just ask him! Ask him what he’s looking to get out of this internship, if there’s a particular area of specialization he wants to move into, etc. He might have some ideas you can work with.

    17. Kiwiii*

      So I never had any internships, so this might be missing the base a little bit. But in my most valuable temp experience, I teamed up with the person in the office who reviewed resumes and got direct help with my resume regarding what they/others in the industry look for, including spelling out how to include work I did (and mentioning things I could include) and that I should be (for entry level positions) mirroring the qualifications more closely to connect the dots for people. I’ve evolved a little from that format since then (with Alison’s help), but it improved my resume significantly and got me tons of interviews for positions that could use me long-term, pay me more, and would offer me benefits (which, then, as a 23 year old making $12/hr with a frankly gross commute, was what I desperately needed)

    18. Token Archaeologist*

      I used to run an internship program. One of the things we frequently heard from participants was that training opportunities, and particularly cross-training opportunities were really useful and were what was getting them hired afterwards. So if any training opportunities come up either in your department, or a department you work with a lot, see if you can get the intern in on the training.

      I can give a field specific example: Our science interns were often included in wild land firefighting training. In the field they were trying to break into this was super useful. Totally unrelated to their science specialty, but very related to the type of organization they were looking to work for. And having the certification, and being able to say they can act as a back up in an emergency even though they are a scientist, was a big bonus for the cash strapped organizations they were looking to work for.

      So many industries are looking to have staff be able to function in multiple roles, that cross straining from the start of a career has become a big bonus. So, ask him what types of things that are tangential he might be interested in, and see what opportunities there are to get him some training or experience in those areas as well.

    19. Venus*

      There are piles of suggestions of what you should do, but in my experience I would first ask him. Don’t push to include him in specific projects, conferences, big meetings, etc before you know that’s something that would interest him. It probably will, but check in first! I chat with my interns to find out what they are most keen to get out of the experience, and for some it’s skills because they want to be in a different field after graduation and don’t need my references to get them there. They don’t mind going to meetings with senior managers, but it wasn’t their priority.

    20. Hillary*

      We try to focus both internships and rotation projects on measurable deliverables. I want the intern to have stories they can tell in a job interview, especially about whatever their area of focus is.

      It’s a small example, but one of our interns just did a voice of the customer interview series for us (internal customers). She set up the interviews, wrote the question list, synthesized the results, and presented them to stakeholders. It was valuable for our team, and it also exposed her to leaders across the business while giving her some exposure to the kind of conflicting wants you’re going to see in a big corporate environment. The only things I did were make the interviewee list and give her some coaching/feedback about how to present to that audience.

    21. Laura W.*

      When I ran an internship program, I always had the interns update their resume with the internship before their final meeting with their supervisor and me. We allotted time during the meeting to go over their resume. In addition to general resume tips, we also suggested ways of rephrasing the way they spoke about the internship to make it stronger. We then gave them the rest of their time at the organization to update their resume with any changes they wanted to make and offered to look at it one final time. I felt it was a nice way to end the internship while making sure their resume was updated for their next internship or job.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        BRILLIANT. Yes, resumes are difficult, and you might be able to give them a different slant on how to write them than they get at the career center.

    22. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      Would you want to hire him when he graduates/if this is possible? (Of course, assuming that he wants to work at your place.)

    23. wittyrepartee*

      If you can’t find a position for him, would it be possible for you to give him a paid internship indefinitely until he finds another position? Having a low level of income during a job search is incredibly helpful, as is having a boss who knows you’re looking and is willing to talk with you about offers that you’re considering.

      Another super helpful thing to do would be to give him practice interviews and to go over his resume. Maybe go over his linked in as well, or other materials that people might look at when he’s looking for a job.

    24. Daisy*

      A little late here, but if he’s really killing it and you have any flexibility, see if you can get him (or reasonably allow him to use) a title other than “intern.” I did an internship right out of college and my boss decided I was doing work way above the intern level, so told me to use “Llama Feeding Coordinator” on my resume instead and she would confirm that in reference checks. It definitely looked better to have a year of experience with that title than “Llama Intern.”

    25. BTDT*

      You have some great ideas already but besides leading a project here are the 2 things I felt was most beneficial:
      – after my project ended I was asked to present it to senior leadership & some other relevant teams. So I got face time with them + it was something I could add to my resume.
      – Got invited back for a 2nd internship to work on a new/different project

    26. Oilpress*

      Be careful not to do more for this intern than you do for your full time staff. Even if the intern has more ability, your full time staff are going to be who helps you this year and next year, while the intern will probably be somewhere else. It’s nice that you want to be helpful, but don’t forget who is going to help (or hurt) you in the long run.

    27. Jocelyn*

      Take him out for coffee and ask them what their big dreams and goals are, and based on his experience at your company what type of work does he have an eye on?

  2. Anonanon doo doo doo doo doo*

    Greetings, All!
    I am a high school teacher specializing in a certain content. I am also a current professional in this content, and am slightly known in my field.
    I write a LOT of recommendation letters, not only for students, but also occasionally for colleagues and friends. A friend going for a job in our field asked me to re-write part of the letter to introduce my background and myself, which I had left out. I have never included information about myself before. Does anyone else do this in their letters?

    1. Sleepy*

      I include information about my role and my relationship to the student. E.g. “I am a math teacher and Janet was a student in my math courses Algebra 1 and Pre-Calculus 2.”

      I don’t think you should include more than that unless the student is truly outstanding and your background will explain how you helped recognize that. E.g. “Although I’ve taught for 20 years, including at the college level, I’ve never seen a student work as hard as Janet.” That’s very different than “This is my first year teaching and Janet is my most hard-working student.”

      Letters should be short and focused on the student. People aren’t likely to read them closely or read something longer than a page, and if you were to discuss yourself, you’d be taking away space from the student.

      1. Muriel Heslop*

        I write a lot of recommendations and I echo this. Specify my relationship to the student and if relevant, any special experience I have to highlight a specific strength or skill of the person for whom I am writing the letter.

        1. Memyselfandi*

          Same here. It is a recommended format for letters of recommendation. Most of my letters are for graduate school, fellowships and the like. I generally write a paragraph about how I have worked with the candidate on a specific project. My position title and credentials, included in my signature, are usually enough to establish my credibility, but it might be reasonable to include more about yourself if the same is not true for you. If you think the recipient of the letter would recognize your name, it might not be necessary.

    2. Hiring Mgr*

      It would seem to make sense to provide that context, no? I suppose the recommendee could do it also though..

    3. Professional Pup*

      I previously worked at a high school not as a teacher, but as a supervisor in an on-campus Teapot Repair Center where students worked part-time to get real-world teapot experience, so I wrote a lot of recs. I always took a few sentences – sometimes only 1-2, sometimes up to 5, depending on what the recommendation was for – to explain the background of our Teapot Repair Center, because it was fairly unique (well known among other schools with Teapot Integration – not so much outside of the K-12 Teapot world). I felt like it was important to make clear how unique the work was that the students were doing, so the background was necessary. So, I don’t think it’s off-base to include a few lines about yourself, especially if your background and specialization can lend more weight to the recommendation you’re giving a student.

      1. Artemesia*

        I worked in a somewhat innovative program in which students had a lot of hands on and community based experience and which there was a lot of emphasis on analysis and writing. I had a couple of boilerplate sentences that described the focus of the program i.e. the focus on what skills students were expected to develop which would then segue into specific examples of things the students did — their internship, or leadership on a community based class project or whatever.

        It is important to provide a bit of context and in your case it might be about your own work and experience — a sentence or so.

    4. Not A Manager*

      Maybe the issue here is that you are writing on behalf of a professional colleague, not a student, so they want it to be clear that you have credentials other than your teaching position.

      1. Captain Raymond Holt*

        As a person who works as a part time faculty member and a full time business professional, Not A Manager has it right! It’s important for the reader to understand why you’re qualified to evaluate and recommend the candidate.

    5. Quickbeam*

      Yes, I include my background briefly so that the reader understands my level of skill and expertise in evaluating the candidate. In my case, nursing.

    6. Parenthetically*

      I sometimes do! I think it depends on the context, and to me, in this context it makes sense — it’s an additional feather in your friend’s cap for someone with your level of expertise and professional experience to recommend her, and introducing yourself briefly means you’re not relying on name recognition or someone having the time to Google you. :)

    7. Anonymeece*

      Hmm, no, I haven’t.

      My format for recommendation letters tends to be:

      [Intro with how I know the person (ex. “I’ve served as supervisor for Jane for the past 5 years. Her position requires…)]

      [Brief overview of her skills/great things at her job]

      [Brief personal note. (ex. “Jane is also a great team-member who always has a smile on her face and a positive attitude. She goes out of her way to get to know her colleagues and …etc)]

      [Closing where I say if they have any questions, etc., and say I think they’d be a great fit]

      My signature has my education level but I’ve never really gone into much detail about myself, other than “I’m his/her supervisor”. That seems odd.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Not exactly the same, but my friend introduced a mutual friend as a guest speaker this way: She started out with the number of years as a consultant. Then she gave a short list of different organizations that were his clients.
      It worked into about three sentences but each sentence was packed. If I did not know the speaker I would still have been very interested in hearing the talk, given his background.

      I’d suggest that you have created the template here that you can use in your first two sentences. “I am a high school teacher with x years experience and I have been concurrently working in the field for y years.” If you have general examples of your work you can put them next. Our friend had done consulting work for various types of NPOs, so several categories of clients were listed, such as schools and hospitals. Notice that the specific institution was not named.
      People just need a general idea of your basis for your insight.

    9. tamarack & fireweed*

      How I would go about this: If you take a step back from the letter as written and read it as if you were a hiring manager, would there be any lingering question about how the letter writer is qualified to make the statements about the candidate? If yes, add just enough information to contextualize.

      It shouldn’t be dragging the letter down the slope of being about you rather than the candidate, but it should make your perspective on the candidate, and your expertise regarding what you’re evaluating, clear. There were many good little templates in the other comments.

    10. Deanna Troi*

      When I receive a letter of reference, I want to know the author’s credentials. How else will I know how much weight give to their opinion? Especially from a colleague, not a teacher.

    11. Anon recommender*

      I do very briefly when relevant. I’m in academia. For example if they are applying for the same degree I have or if they are applying for a very special position so the readers have context that I am not just a random person at the university. As an aside, I do not allow students to read my letters. I only agree if they waive this right. I have allowed colleagues to see the letters though and a few asked for tweaks I was happy to make.

  3. The Actually Mad Scientist*

    Hi All,I guess I’m looking for some help framing something that’s been going on at work. I’ve posted before that I am a contractor working at a much larger pharma company. Our department is made up mostly of people from my contracting company, with some of the pharma company’s people interspersed and higher-up than we are. They just opened up 6 positions, specifically geared to convert “contract XYZ” employees to “Pharma” employees (so there are no clauses or anything like that that are keeping us from the jobs.) 

    I’ve been here for 4.5 years and have never had any problems with my work. All of my reviews are glowing, I’ve been told I’m a great employee, I’m always getting bonuses, rewards, etc. Personally, I lost my mom this year, so this has been the hardest year of my life. I’m at work, doing a great job (from what I’ve been told) and making a huge effort to be here every day, do my best and ignore my continuously deteriorating mental health since Mom died. I’m one of the most senior contractors here.
     
    The positions opened up, and, lo and behold, I DIDN’T EVEN GET AN INTERVIEW. FOR MY OWN JOB. When they sent an email saying that all of the interviews were already conducted or scheduled (so if you’re waiting, you’re SOL) my heart sank and, unfortunately, since I’m apparently a child, I started to cry (silently, not like sobbing.)
    Someone saw me crying and inferred that I was upset about the situation, and it got back to the hiring manager, Sally. (who is good friends with my manager, Jill). Jill had a talk with me this morning “off the record” to ask if I was upset, which I confessed that I was, but that I was dealing with it. Jill told me that my being upset got back to Sally and Sally told Jill that if I was upset about it, she wishes that I would go talk to her. Jill said she “thinks it will make me feel better.” 

    I considered this, but I don’t know if I want to do it. I feel like Sally is in a bad position with having to make a decision of giving 6 people positions out of 45 really good employees, and me asking to talk to her isn’t going to do anything besides make her feel bad. I would like an explanation (because at this point I feel it’s personal) but is it even worth it? It’s not going to change anything, and I don’t want to come across as a baby that’s crying because I didn’t get picked for an interview. I know that it’s not her job to handle my emotions, but I would love to know if it’s something I’m doing-my anxiety and many other things have gone off the rails lately, and it’s hard for me to regulate anything, so I try to take extreme care with making sure I’m doing a good job.

    Do you guys think I should talk to Sally? What should I say? I need to do something here because I’m starting to get very…complacent? towards my job. I feel this might be a point that will turn me from a good worker into an “eff this entire place” worker and I don’t want that at all. Also, everyone in my open-plan office is talking about their interviews and how they went, and I secretly want to punch every single one of them. I don’t want to end up hating my job over this, and I also don’t want to end up hating my coworkers. I would appreciate any help! 

    1. Elenia*

      First of all it is so ok to cry. I am a grown ass woman and when I got the news I didn’t get a job I had been doing interim for 8 months, I very calmly accepted the news, talked to the person who delivered it, hung up, and started to cry. I think more people should cry occasionally, it’s a great venting situation.
      In the end you don’t have to talk to Sally. If you can, though, it might be good to talk to her and ask her what was lacking and what you could do to get this job in the future. Most likely she will say something that might not be that useful. That is not the point.
      The point is, to afterwards, when you are far in the future, to be able to look back onto this and remember you handled it. Despite my tears, I did ask the hiring person what he was looking for and how to improve myself as an applicant. He told me some things, and I was like “What…? I have those skills already! That’s BS! ” which in turn told me, I was worth more than that. That boost of self-confidence didn’t come right away, it came down the line, which eventually spurred me to a job with a higher role and a LOT more pay.
      Much affection to you. It always sucks to be passed over. Bleh!

      1. valentine*

        making a huge effort to […] ignore my continuously deteriorating mental health since Mom died.
        I think this is the place to focus. Maybe it’s impacting your work more than you think. If you can take time between jobs, that might help.

      2. Token Archaeologist*

        THIS! Crying really should not be the big, bad deal that its made out to be. Its a normal, natural human reaction. When you said that you cried after you got that email my first thought was “of course you did. So would I. So HAVE I.” You just had the unfortunate reality of receiving the news at work, during office hours, in an open plan office. The last time I received bad news at work, and cried, I had the benefit of being able to shut my door. So you quietly shed some tears. It means you care about your job/the job you applied for and were genuinely disappointed not to get an interview. That is a positive, not a negative. Keep that knowledge in mind, do not be embarrassed by or apologize for the tears, and go get whatever feedback you can on why you were passed over. (Side note: There is a wonderful chapter on crying at work in the book Dear Madame President.)

        1. Anita Brayke*

          Thank you!! Shitty things happen at work all the time. When shitty things happen, sometimes we cry. It’s ok to cry! We’re human beings. Your mom died, you didn’t get the job you thought you wanted, and it’s okay to cry about any or all of that! Burying emotions is not good for you.

          I recommend a nice blanket on the couch in front of your favorite movie with your favorite beverage tonight, plus any animals or humans you deem helpful! Take care of yourself, Actually Mad!!!

    2. ThatGirl*

      I think, if you feel good about Sally overall, that it might help – and she may be able to give you advice or a recommendation for a different job. Maybe talk to Jill first if you trust/know her more.

    3. Lurker*

      I think that you can totally talk to Sally. I’d just frame it like “I was taken aback that I wasn’t in the pool of people you selected for an interview, and I’m hoping that you can give me some feedback on my application so I can put a stronger foot forward should another similar opportunity arise in the future”. That way it’s not about your feelings, but you’ll 1) potentially get useful information, 2) hopefully get a little closure, and 3) get it on their radar that you are serious about progressing. And I’m so sorry that you are having such a tough year – all the best!

      1. AVP*

        This is really good framing! Sally may have some specific advice on how you could be successful in the future that she’d be happy to give you – but doesn’t want to give out unsolicited because not everyone would welcome that. But if you would…go for it.

        1. Kate*

          I agree with this approach. I always think it makes sense to ask for feedback. (And like a previous commenter said, if the feedback is completely bogus – then you know you’ll be more valued elsewhere.) Also, I wanted to say that I’m sorry about your Mom. Take care of yourself.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            And specifically since Sally told The Actually Mad Scientist’s boss to have her come talk, I think she’d be more than willing to provide feedback.

            I’m so sorry about the loss of your mom, TAMS. Were you able to take any time off from work to grieve? I ask because, like was mentioned above, if you haven’t, that’s probably been affecting your performance more than you realize at the moment. Please give yourself some grace here – you weren’t being a child because you cried over a job, you cried because this was yet another thing you lost this year. Loss in general is hard and it’s natural to be upset. Take care of yourself mentally and emotionally, and please ask for feedback if you really do like your job and want to stay in it.

          2. Mockingbird 2*

            I agree— I was in a completely ridiculous situation with feedback last year and the more I asked for feedback (the feedback that would only be given passive-aggressively through evals and never to my face) from that person the more I realised it was bogus and there was NOTHING I could do to improve my standing with them even if I did take the actually-constructive things they had to say seriously. FWIW this was the only person at my job giving me negative feedback.

    4. NotaPirate*

      I would talk to Sally. Not in a why on earth was I not one of the lucky 6 from 45 question though. But as a chance to feel out how often this conversion is happening, how often are they going to roll over, is there specific qualifications they are looking for. Because these are the questions that will help you decide whether to job hunt or hang out in the same roll hoping for next time.

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      4.5 years in that situation is ridiculous. Start looking for a new job if feasible. The responsible thing to do as a hiring manager in that situation is to either give all internal candidates an interview or explain to them one-on-one in person why they’re not getting an interview. Sending out a passive e-mail that all interview have been scheduled is a chickenshit way of handling the situation. Sally needs to step up and actually do her job, even when it’s awkward and unpleasant.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Actually, multi-year contracts are the new normal in the US – all gig economy all the time. And explaining to 30+ people why they’re not getting an interview is an unreasonable expectation. Employees are now expected to be proactive about their careers, not waiting for HR to come to them.

        TAMS, I’d talk to Sally, with the Lurker / NotaPirate scripts. Ask what would make you a stronger candidate next time, when that next time might come up, etc. You’re probably doing fine.

        I am very sorry for your loss.

        1. Trout 'Waver*

          Nope. Not at all.

          I’m in a similar field and it’s a huge red flag of a shitty company. And probably wouldn’t stand scrutiny to the contractor vs employee test if someone made a complaint.

          Also, explaining to 30+ people why they’re not getting an interview is part of the job of hiring for 6 roles from a pool of 45 internal applicants. Either TAMS’s manager or Sally should be having a conversation with them about why there weren’t selected for an interview. It’s poor management to not do so. I agree that TAMS should be proactive about their career. Proactively looking to get away from this terribly run place.

      2. Public Sector Manager*

        I agree. I have 20 people working for me and it wouldn’t take very long to tell them why they aren’t getting an interview. Plus, it would be important for retention of those contractors to have that conversation. It’s not a big ask, even if it’s 50 employees.

    6. Caroline*

      This is so hard The Actually Mad Scientist! First I would say, please be kind to yourself. You’ve had an incredibly tough year and even if you weren’t killing it at work, that would be OK! I know what it’s like to be a normally great employee who is finding it difficult to care anymore and I would say mostly it is a time-bound thing and you will find your mojo again.
      Secondly – if you do decide to talk to Sally (which I think I would do). I would recommend writing yourself a really clear script in advance about the specific things you want to know, and then practice it out loud. Hopefully that will help with managing your emotions in the meeting. Write down an opener, something like ‘Thanks for speaking to me. I was disappointed to hear that I had not been offered an interview for these positions despite my excellent performance reviews for X and Y projects. I am hoping you can give me some clarity on why this was the case?’
      Don’t over-explain or give lots of context, but instead look to Sally to give her perspective on it.
      I imagine she might try and fob you off with ‘there were lots of great candidates’ etc and in that case I would ask for some specific areas that you can work on to be considered next time around. Even if you decide you can’t stand to be there a moment longer I think it will still be helpful information for your next career move.

    7. Notthemomma*

      I think you should, not necessarily to plead for a spot, but to squelch the rumor mill. And clear the air. Address that you were upset, but you recognize that they had some hard decisions to make, that you did not realize how much you wanted it, but that the email hit you harder than you thought it would, but you do value a continuing good working relationship

      1. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. If that ship has sailed, then your goal should be figuring out what you do next in the context of your job. If YOU are not going be doing that job, then where will you be going?

    8. Psyche*

      This is a hard one. If you were feeling ok emotionally, I think it would be a good idea to try to get some feedback about why you weren’t given the interview so that you can try to improve your odds in the future or decide to apply elsewhere and not waste your time (depending on the feedback). However, if you are already feeling emotionally fragile, it may simply make you feel worse. This is especially true if you end up crying and then are embarrassed. I doubt that there is anything they can say that will make you feel better about being passed over, so you need to decide if the chance that you might be able to strengthen future applications is worth the emotional toll the conversation will take.

    9. Lora*

      I would talk to Sally, but here’s how I would frame it:

      -You were hoping based on your experience with them that they would consider you for full time, do they have any feedback or guidance for you in the future? Will your temp position continue or is there some other insight they can provide for you? Since you’re a contractor, will you need to be looking for another contract soon? If you need to look for a new contract elsewhere, how do they want you to transition (laundry list of projects) to the new employees?

      -If she asks about crying, I would say “oh sorry my mom died recently, I was crying for a different reason” because this is understandable, nobody’s going to think less of you for that. Well monsters maybe, but they don’t count. If she doesn’t ask I wouldn’t mention it.

      I’m actually a FTE in my current role *because* I told them, “hey, as a contractor, I need to be on the lookout for other contracts all the time, and if you’re not going to offer me a full time role then I need to accept this other contract. The deadline for me accepting a different contract is (date). If you don’t let me know by 3pm on (date) whether you are going to bring me in full time or extend my contract, I will be going elsewhere.” They had me in mind for a couple of possible roles, and were dilly-dallying around for so long that it was literally 2:30 on (date) when they conjured up an offer letter. And they dragged their feet on when the first day as an FTE would be, too.

      In another job, I started as a contractor and was transferred under another boss who…somehow never let anyone else know I was a contractor. So I was treated as a full time employee, in a matrix-management organization, and wasn’t made full time until the other managers in the matrix realized I was a contractor because I had to tell them, “I cannot take on your project, I’m leaving on (date) as that’s the end of my contract.” Then the other managers were able to get me in full time – they literally never even thought to consider that I was anything other than a full time employee. Even the two managers who knew it, conveniently forgot, and only got upset when I had to tell them, look, you will have to work out an overtime agreement with the contracting firm – or make me full time salaried.

      In both cases there was a lot of “we had no idea you were handling ALL those tasks!” that drove them to insist I become full time. So it helps to go in armed with the list of things you are doing and what all would be involved in them losing you.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This: “I was frustrated at the email, and I’m glad to have a chance to discuss it. But my tears that day were for another reason — my mother died this year, and it still hits me hard on some days.”
        Then lead into some of the wonderful suggestions from the commentariat.

        Good luck ActuallyMadScientist… I lost my mom in 2016 and I had plenty of times with red eyes at the office in the first couple of years.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Yes. Absolutely.

        There is a productive and, I would say, necessary conversation that needs to happen here.

        But it’s not about your feelings. It’s about your future with the role, and the plans you need to make to further your own career.

        Sally isn’t in charge of those things any more than she is responsible for your feelings. But she has the information you need to make good decisions.

    10. OtterB*

      Sally said (through Jill) that if you are upset about it, she’d like to talk to you. That doesn’t mean you have to, but I think you can take it at face value and talk to her. Your message is simply “Yes, I’m upset, because I like the company and my work, and all my feedback says I’m doing a good job, and I didn’t get an interview.” Possibly, you could go on to “I’d value any feedback about what I could do differently to position myself for the next opportunity like this.” But mostly then you listen to anything Sally has to say. It might not help your feelings in the least, but it might. And in general, more information is better than less information.

      BTW, I say this because Sally offered. If she hadn’t, I think you could have the conversation with Jill but not go direct to Sally.

    11. Ms.Vader*

      I’d talk to Sally. It may be that you are already a forerunner for the position and didn’t need an interview. Who knows! I wish you luck.

    12. gbca*

      I’m sorry, that must be so hard – I’d be really upset too. I do think you should 100% talk to Sally. If Sally said she wants you to talk to her, then definitely talk to her! If she didn’t think anything would come of the conversation she wouldn’t offer. And honestly it might even come off a little strangely if you don’t talk to her, now that she probably knows Jill told you that she wishes you would talk to her. She clearly feels there’s some value in the conversation, so it absolutely makes sense to have it.

    13. Zephy*

      First: I’m sorry for your loss.

      It sounds like the thing to work on here is how you feel, which sounds like a job for therapy. See if there’s a community mental health center in your area; if cost is a concern, they often have flexibility with pricing and payment. If you have insurance, your plan might include access to Teladoc or a similar telepractice service that includes mental health professionals. There are also apps like Meta and Talkspace; some of them are paid and others are free, but they connect you with a therapist via phone or text. I can’t personally vouch for them as I’ve never used them, but I know they exist as an option.

      Losing a parent is hard for anyone, and by your own admission, you haven’t really taken the time yet to process that grief in a healthy way. Talking to someone, even if it’s just about your mom and you don’t even get into the work stuff, is likely to help you feel at least a little better.

    14. Not A Manager*

      I don’t like this “are you upset/this will make you feel better” stuff. Of course as fellow humans your bosses don’t want you to suffer emotionally, but it’s not their job to manage your emotions AND it’s not your job to close the emotion loop by making them feel better about your experience.

      By all means talk to Sally, but talk to her about your performance and professional development, not about how Everyone Feels about the interview situation.

      1. Marthooh*

        Yep. Sally and Jill are being weirdly middle-school about it. Tell Jill to tell Sally to tell the rumor-monger to stick a sock in it.

    15. Meredith*

      I would frame it as, “Hey Sally, I think you heard I was upset about the interviews for the X positions. While I was a little disappointed that I wasn’t chosen for an interview after 4.5 years of what I believe to be good quality work, I understand you have 45 contractors in this role and it must be a hard decision with a lot of different considerations. I’d love to stay here though, ideally in a permanent position at some point, and see what you think I should work on to get to the level that could be considered for future openings.” Hopefully that moves it from the fact that you were crying and might be sore about not being picked to Sally understanding that you empathize with her decision process and are actually interested in feedback. Good luck!

      1. Artemesia*

        It doesn’t really matter if you talk to her or not. What is very clear is that you need to find another job even if the contractor role continues here. They have made it clear that they don’t value you; find someone who does. Take your time if the contractor role is to continue, but be gone when you get an offer that is attractive to you.

    16. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I think it’s worth it to talk to Sally if you feel you can handle it. You may learn more about what’s going on.

      I was turned down for a promotion that I fully deserved (to the point that someone who was promoted over me told me that she was baffled by what happened – turns out she was promoted as a way of trying to bribe her to stay, which failed miserably as she gave notice less than two months later) and I definitely teared up in the meeting with my manager while trying to explain where I was coming from. I don’t feel bad about it, especially when I was given feedback I’d never heard before in the 2.5 years I’d been there in said meeting.

      I gave notice the day the day after the promoted coworker. My new job is great. OP, you don’t have to stay in this position if you feel that you deserve better. Sometimes, even good jobs/companies turn into untenable situations.

    17. nonymous*

      my 2cents is that it is not Sally’s job to manage your feelings. However, it is part of Sally’s job to figure out how to keep a reasonable supply productive staff (direct employee or contractors) at minimum cost to the org. Lots of good tips for how to pitch that in the comments.

      But if it becomes obvious that this position is a dead end, I personally think that you need to prioritize networking and development opportunities which will allow you to take a different job when this contract ends. And you can definitely advocate for those opportunities even as a contractor. There’s a wide spectrum between “eff this place” and “I luuurve working here”. Perhaps now is the time for “Not a bad place to work while I gear up for NewThing”?

      1. DC*

        It’s also not TAMS’s job to manage Sally’s feelings. To me, this read as “Sally feels bad she made someone upset, and wants to talk to you to make herself feel better.” That’s not TAMS’s job. Sally is in a role where, yes, some people are going to be upset. The folks they say no to farther down the line will also be upset.

        Sally also didn’t handle this well, and that’s on Sally, not TAMS.

        1. i forget the name i usually use*

          YES – this is what I thought too. Sally feels bad that OP is upset, and “why didn’t they come talk to me” was her reaction, instead of having to deal with that she cannot make everyone happy. I think going and talking to Sally would just give Sally the chance to justify/try to talk OP out of being upset/argue with their feelings, even though they are totally within normal reactions to a disappointing career event.

          I wouldn’t go, I don’t think you’ll get any resolution out of it, just hot air.

          1. i forget the name i usually use*

            Also, it just occurred to me that Sally totally triangulated Jill right into this situation (a technique people use to diffuse their emotional discomfort with a situation by dragging a third party into it). Maybe it’s more appropriate, since Jill is OP’s manager, BUT then sending the message “you should have come talk to me” is sort of ironic, because that’s what Sally should have done in the first place too! ugh. This place sounds like sort of an emotional quagmire, especially if you’re also dealing with your own personal stresses like losing a loved one. I’m so sorry, OP.

        2. Public Sector Manager*

          Totally agree! And honestly, I wouldn’t go to the meeting.

          First, if it’s going to be a lot of hot air from Sally about how this was a difficult decision, about how there were a lot of qualified people who didn’t get the position, about how much you mean to the organization, etc., I’d pass. It’s all blowing smoke–we like you, just not enough to hire you.

          Second, why does TAMS need to be summoned to a meeting with Sally? Can’t Sally find TAMS and have the discussion? If this was my team, I would tell people in advance why they weren’t getting an interview. And if I didn’t for some reason and word got back to me like it did with Sally here, I’d find the person out. I wouldn’t go to their boss and say, “hey, if they want to meet to discuss, then let me know.”

          This is all being done to make Sally feel better.

    18. CM*

      I would wait a while, until you’re not feeling upset about it anymore — like, a long time, if you need to — and then ask Sally for feedback on your application. That’s the framing I use when I need to find out why I was rejected from something, because I want to figure out whether it’s worth applying again — just super calm, “I’m wondering if you have any feedback on my application. As I’m thinking about what I want to do in the future, it would be helpful to know if there are gaps in my experience, etc” or something like that.

      I 100% don’t think that talking to Sally will make you feel better, and that’s a weird thing to suggest. So, don’t go into the conversation thinking that it will comfort you — wait until you’re already calm and only want information.

      It also sounds like you’re being pretty hard on yourself about crying and feeling upset. There’s no reason to be ashamed of either of those things. It might be worth thinking more deeply about why you’re upset, because it might reveal unspoken beliefs. (For example: “I take for granted that everyone who works here understands we’re all desperate to move to the pharma side, so it was really callous for them to reject us with a form email.” That may or may not be something you believe, but it’s the kind of belief that, if you discover it, could help you re-frame the situation and decide things like, “I need to be more clear with my manager that my ultimate goal is to get one of the pharma jobs” or “I thought I was earning a pharma job with my efforts, but now that it seems that’s not true, do I still want to work here?”)

    19. Blueberry Girl*

      The part of this letter that concerns me is not whether you should talk to Sally or not. I think others have really done a great job with suggestions for that.

      I’m sort of concerned about your chose to “ignore my continuously deteriorating mental health since Mom died.” I really think if you are struggling that it might behoove you to find a mental health professional to speak to. If you’re having a lot of trouble regulating emotions, than they might be able to help. Good luck!

    20. Aquawoman*

      First, I’m so sorry about your Mom, that has got to be difficult and reduce your ability to deal with other setbacks.
      I do think you should talk to Sally. (I actually think Sally should talk to you but that is apparently not going to happen). I think the fact that it came back that way suggests that Sally has something to say to you, and I think you would do well to hear what it is. I can think of a million things ranging from “you need to work on X” to “we have another role in mind for you,” but I think it will be useful.

      1. PharmaCat*

        I’m more cynical – Sally doesnt want any contractors to leave because of this selection, so of course she wants to reassure you. At 4.5 years with the company, this could be a political situation- maybe it has nothing to do with your skills, but with an assessment on relative flight risks among contractors.

    21. Harry*

      Yes, you should. You should never assume that the hiring manager knows what YOU want. Have you ever explicitly stated that you want to convert? I recently also had a contractor position open and after rounds and rounds of interview, I couldn’t find anyone I liked. Then one of my vendors asked to talk to me and said he was interested. Had he not reach out, I wouldn’t have known. Being that you were there for so long, they may simply assume you wanted to remain as a contractor.

    22. Not So NewReader*

      You’ve got more than one grief going on here at the same time. Personally, I probably blat like a baby if this happened to me. It’s a lot. A real lot.
      We can grieve lost jobs just as hard as we grieve losing a human out of our lives. Grief is cumulative and it compounds as it accumulates. So one thing happens and it’s an upset. The second thing happens and oh boy, this is a problem. Then if we are unfortunate enough to have another loss of some sort, it can work into a huge flippin’ deal.

      If grief counseling is not doable for you right now, please check out some grief books or a grief group. I did a grief group at church and I thought, “What have I gotten into? How is being around sad people going to help ME?” It was wonderful. I could not wait to go each week. Everyone was so sweet and it just felt so safe there.
      There’s a lot to learn about the grieving process such as the causes of grief (losing a job can be on a par with a funeral); the stages of grief (I am sad then I am angry then I am sad, what’s up?); and the symptoms of grief (why can’t I keep track of my car keys anymore???).

      I think you should go talk to Sally. You have nothing to lose as you feel yourself sliding to the door right now. This cannot get much worse than it already is.

      BUT.

      It’s been my experience when someone reaches out for me during a difficult period in my life that I need to go talk with this person. Yeah, you run the risk of being shot down again. I am thinking that won’t happen here. I am thinking that she was truly touched that you were so upset. Rather than chasing you down, she is being gracious and letting you set the pacing here. It strikes me that this is not an easy conversation to have and I am wondering if she has something to tell you that you do not know.

      I think it is fine to set up a time to see her. I even think it’s fine to show up with not too much to say. Actually saying less will be easier on you as you can focus on listening. You can open with, “I heard you wanted to talk with me…”, and let your voice trail off. Yeah, let her do the work in this conversation. For me, I would tend to think that the onus is on her to carry the conversation. Perhaps this is mean spirited on my part, but there is a practical side where I know it is best for me not to talk too much. So letting her carry the bulk of the conversation would not bother my soul at all. At the end, I would say, “Thank you for your time.” Then leave the office.

      You can come back next Friday and tell us how it went.

    23. juliebulie*

      I think you should go to Sally (although if she were capable of acting like a grownup she would have gone to you first instead of Jill). Maybe it will make you feel better and maybe it won’t, but at least you won’t wonder what she was going to say.

      She may have had an interesting reason for not choosing you. Like, maybe she was planning to choose you for something else that she knows is coming up soon. Or, she might have been under the impression that you weren’t interested in becoming a FTE. In that case, it will have been a worthwhile conversation.

      On the other hand, maybe she’ll say that she hates your face and wouldn’t hire you for anything, ever. If so, you’ll know it’s time to find a new job. So… still a worthwhile conversation.

      Maybe she’ll babble a lot of self-serving baloney and then, again, you’ll know it’s time to look for a new job. Still a worthwhile conversation!

    24. Junior Assistant Peon*

      There’s no future in pharma. Merck, Wyeth, Schering-Plough, etc used to be great places to work until the 2000s, when Wall Street decided that 10 years to develop a new drug might as well be a hundred years, and most of the scientists got Pfired. Try to get into polymers, coatings, adhesives, or something along those lines, or you’re going to waste your life working crappy temp jobs at the remaining pharma companies.

  4. Temp Agencies Question*

    Hi everyone! I’ve been looking into working with a temp/staffing agency for a career shift, and I’m having a hard time telling which one I should select. Does anyone have any tips for evaluating a good staffing agency?

    In the past, I worked with some who took my resume and information, but I never heard from them again. I’d get an email every year as my resume account passed from employee to employee (Hi I’m Fergus! I’m your new contact!) and then they’d go silent again.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      I’ve had good luck in the past with national chains – Spherion is where I was, but I know people who’ve had good luck with Adecco and Kelly Services.

      1. Miss Fisher*

        I started out with Adecca back in 2009 and was supposed to be at that specific job for 1 month, a year and half later, I was hired on at the company and have been there ever since in various roles. I think it depends on the kind of work you want. Some are geared more towards office roles and others more towards labor intensive work. With adecco even, certain job types are available at the various locations in the city. So you need to specify job type wanted or go through a certain location. I went to a different place before this, I don’t remember the name, but the experience wasn’t the best. They did help me with my resume but the job they sent me to was cold calling big named companies like WWE, MTV etc to find out info on the bigwigs. I lasted one day and then they never got back to me.

    2. Natalie*

      It’s pretty normal to work with multiple agencies, in my experience. I don’t know that I’d limit myself to just one.

      1. ThatGirl*

        This is what I was gonna say; when I was job searching I was registered with roughly ten different agencies.

      2. Former staffer*

        As someone who worked at a national chain as a staffing specialist, I can tell you that it was rare that our best temps worked only with us. Because they did well, we did our best to keep them as busy as they wanted to be so they were earning us a good reputation as well as themselves until they were usually hired away (if that was there goal.)

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        The only thing I’d point out is that if you can get into a temp agency that still offers health benefits to long-term temps, you’re more likely to reach the required number of workdays if you’ve been going through one agency (at least primarily).

    3. Lily in NYC*

      Agree with the others that you should work with multiple agencies. If you are in a large-ish city with a lot of agency options AND you have a better than average resume, I suggest working with smaller boutique firms instead of the big chains. They tend to have more of a personal touch and won’t forget you the minute you walk out the door. Work with the ones that actually respond to your communications and seem organized. You can generally get a vibe when you visit the office for an interview.
      Oh! A random tip – you will probably be tested on Microsoft office functions. Many agencies use the same or similar tests. I recommend going to an agency you don’t plan to use first to take the test. That way you can see what you got wrong so you can ace it when you go to an agency you really want to work with.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        It’s funny you say this. Back in the day when I went to OfficeTeam looking for work, they made me do the Microsoft Office test, and I bombed it because I was so used to using shortcuts that the system didn’t test on. My recruiter called me back and told me she’d be sending me a link with practice exams for the main test – she told me to do the practice tests for each application and then take the tests immediately after so I wouldn’t forget, then she’d submit my new scores to companies along with my resume.

        So I did the Excel practice exam (which was me basically going through the recruiter’s screenshots and practicing in the application itself), then took the real exam and passed. Did the same for Word and then PowerPoint. Passed those, too (blew Word out of the water). And sure enough, my recruiter called back and told me I aced the tests and she would be sending me on a job shortly. I ended up being placed by them and then a month later, I was hired onto the company I temped for as a full time employee with a promotion to boot.

        So, yes – definitely practice Microsoft skills!

        1. Temp Agencies Question*

          Ugh, I had this happen years ago. It was during or right after the recession and they gave me a test on Microsoft Office 95. Which I had never used, because I was 24 and I was too young.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yeah, my experience happened in 2009. I’ll give the recruiters at OfficeTeam credit, though – they did not have to let me retest or give me practice exams to go through to pass. They must have really sensed my desperation for a job, ANY job, lol.

    4. These Old Wings*

      I tried doing this back in the spring and got ghosted by 3 separate agencies. I agree with not limiting yourself and signing up with as many as you can and hopefully one of them will work out.

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      Are there any staffing agencies that specialize in the field you want to enter? I’m an admin and although all staffing agencies say they always need admin, I found that using one specifically geared towards experienced EAs, Office Managers in my area (Robert Half/Office Team) worked better for me. They have been wonderful about looking for a direct hire position and keep in touch.

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        +1 to see if there is a staffing agency that specializes in your field, or the field that you want to move into. Early in my career I worked through Aquent which (at the time, I have no idea now) specialized in creative talent like graphic design, videography and photography. They were really great to work for and I had a variety of long- and short-term placements with interesting projects in many different industries.

        Whatever agency you do use though, it’s been my experience that it’s up to you to check in with them frequently and ask for assignments, not just submit a resume and wait for their call. I did some work through Kelly Services and they wanted me to call in weekly to let them know I was available. If I didn’t call, they assumed I wasn’t available and didn’t assign me.

    6. Gdub*

      I used to be the person at the temp agency who sent people on assignments, and I would advise you to register with multiple agencies. If one starts using you all the time right away, great! But this way you’ll be covered. There’s a big “luck of the draw” factor in sending folks out, so you might as well be in as many drawings as possible!

    7. detaill--orieted*

      Most of my temping has been relatively low-level, but from what I’ve seen — 1) What they said, working with more than one agency is normal. 2) At least for lower-level jobs, the expectation is that the job-seeker is hungry, you keep contacting the agency to see whether anything has come up, they don’t contact you. (This unpleasant dynamic may no longer be true, not apply in your situation?) 3) By *far* the best experience I had was with an agency that specialized in the kind of work I did — at that point, graphic design and production. They understood what a good placement was, they understood the tools and skills they were placing, and when an issue came up I felt like they were on my side.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Your #2 is what I was going to say — back in the 90s I did a lot of temp receptionist work, but they didn’t send me out for a long time, because I was untested! So I called every morning to see if there was anything available, and eventually the temp agency’s receptionist was going on vacation herself, and she recommended me! From then on, I was as busy as I wanted to be.

    8. Jadelyn*

      Depends on what field you’re in. I’ve had good experiences with Robert Half companies – specifically Accountemps and OfficeTeam. My partner, who’s a machinist, has had good experiences with Aerotek.

      The biggest thing I’d look for is how involved do they get right off? Do they just take your resume and that’s it? Do they have you come in and do a basic interview with them so they can get a better idea of your skills so they can “pitch” you to roles that will suit? If they get you interviews at companies, do they support you in that? The guy at Aerotek, when he called to let my partner know he’d scheduled an interview, went over my partner’s resume with him and noted a couple things he was pretty sure the company would ask, so that my partner would be prepared to answer.

      Also, at some agencies, they expect you to stay in touch, checking in with them periodically to see if they have anything, and if you don’t do that, they’ll assume you found a regular job and won’t reach out to you with anything. Ask about that when you first get on their roster.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do not limit yourself to any one group, that’s for sure!

      It will depend drastically on your area and the team they have at any given agency.

      I have had great luck with Robert Half, Office Team/AccounTemps but other areas their offices are awful and sparse. The agencies are only as good as their local team. So cast a wide net and talk to lots of people.

      Some hiring folks prefer one and go to that one, so you never know which is the “hot” agency in town until you start seeing the placements you get.

      You need to be in constant contact with them at first, to get noticed and get placed. Don’t just put in resumes and wait. This is the only time you should really follow up because they’re recruiters and specializing in placements, they aren’t like hiring managers at a company that’s hiring perm placements.

    10. HR Disney Princess*

      I’m going through the same thing! I chose Robert Half as I have a relative who works there and was placed rather quickly. Spherion is good, but so are other more regional/ local ones. The nice things with agencies is that they tend to accept phone calls easier. You could always try calling them after applying to let them know you are looking to make a career change. Sometimes if the job doesn’t look like an immediate fit, they won’t reach out. It will happen for you, it may just take time.

      I actually have an interview this afternoon for a temp position in a new department. I’m very excited. Best of luck!!!!

    11. Kiwiii*

      Besides figuring out if they actually offer the sort of work you’re interested in (of like 5 staffing agencies, only 1 in my hometown does anything besides factory work), there’s not a lot that you can do to ensure they’ll be responsive or have jobs that fit. In the initial application stage, I would ask if they have anything in mind for me/jobs that might be a good fit, and then if I haven’t heard anything definitive from them in the next couple days, I’d apply to the next one.

      Also, some really terrible staffing agencies are sometimes the only contract with really cool jobs — my last staffing agency screwed up my paycheck multiple times, couldn’t keep a receptionist and tricked me into working as one for them at random without checking that my schedule was clear (they’d call me in to talk about an opportunity and then be like “oh your meeting isn’t scheduled until 11AM, you’ll be working reception until then), and ended up firing the woman who recruited me for embezzlement, but the /job/ I got sent on through them was one of my favorites, with incredibly lovely managers and coworkers, really interesting work, and tons of industry connections.

    12. Mid*

      I think it depends on your field. However, i personally had an amazing experience with Robert Half, specifically their Legal department. I would ask around the field you’re looking to get into and see what agencies are used commonly.

  5. rageismycaffeine*

    I just posted this in today’s “five questions” comments, but it occurs to me it would be better here.

    I have a Director title under an Executive Director. Think Director of Teapot Research under the Executive Director of Teapot Services. Over time, it’s become clear that I’m more accurately the assistant director of Teapot Services, as my job duties have expanded past the Research role – but this does look like a step back, even though it’s really an expanded responsibility, so we haven’t done it yet.

    Any thoughts on this? Does it fall into the same category as “just make your responsibilities clear on your resume”?

    1. Cube Ninja*

      I might suggest “Deputy Director” might be more fitting than “Assistant Director”, depending on your organizational structure and if that title is workable. I think it confers a stronger sense that you’re a bit more senior, but ultimately, I also think it’s semantics and your accomplishments will speak more to your role than specific duties for the role.

      2. rageismycaffeine*

        Oh, interesting thought! I’m honestly not sure if “deputy director” is even a thing here, but it’s worth exploring!

    2. Moray*

      Personally, I wouldn’t walk back a higher-sounding title unless you anticipated future promotions within the same company.

      1. Mazzy*

        I agree with Cube above. Deputy Director is actually still a good title, and I’d respect a coworker much more if they were honest about their title.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I think it looks like a step up — from directing a small area to being #2 of the whole thing. I wouldn’t worry about appearances on that front.

      1. Anne of Green Gables*

        Yes, this is where I land, too. Second in command is more important overall, just be sure it’s clear from duties how significant your responsibilities are.

    4. LizzE*

      Curious, is this more like you are doing dual roles versus just one? My friend is both a program director for the nonprofit she works at and the assistant director for facility operations. Basically, she leads all programmatic areas and everyone who works on the programmatic side is under her line of supervision, but she is also the #2 person onsite, reporting to the facility director and is in charge when he is not around (hence her second assistant director title).

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        Hm, I guess it is kind of a dual role situation, but my workplace definitely doesn’t do dual titles.

        1. pen mouse click*

          Could you do Associate Director of Teapot Services?

          That’s how I’ve seen most of my companies upgrade you – associate, specialist, senior specialist, manager, senior manager, associate director, director, senior director, VP, senior VP, c-suite.

  6. Sleepy*

    I have a question about title creep—am I unreasonable to be annoyed by it?

    I work at a small nonprofit with a very flat management structure. Most people have the title of “Program Manager.”

    Three *very* part-time employees, who each work less than 10 hours / week, have requested to also receive the title of “Program Manager”. I find this pretty silly because they simply are not managing their own programs or taking on that level of responsibility. However, my boss tends to give employees whatever title they ask for because she thinks of it as a way of compensating employees without actually raising their salary.

    I feel burned by title creep because several years ago, my boss promoted one of my subordinates to Program Manager; I took this to mean that the new Program Manager should have more responsibility and autonomy over her work. I delegated a number of important tasks to her that I would normally have taken on. I didn’t realize until much later that she thought she was only receiving a new title, but not new responsibilities, and she didn’t perform any of the tasks I delegated to her.

    Part of me knows that handing out titles is a good way to keep people happy at a nonprofit that can’t give out big raises, so I’m not sure if I’m being unreasonable to insist that titles should relate carefully to the responsibilities involved.

    1. Mainely Professional*

      You’re frustrated because you’re experiencing “title compression” the way other people might experience salary compression. It is annoying, and it devalues the work of full time employees.

      1. Mazzy*

        I complained about this a few weeks ago, it is really annoying, I’d suggest talking to management now before they hand out more fancy titles

        1. Kate*

          It is annoying – and annoying when senior leaders don’t see how it rubs more senior employees the wrong way. When you suggest future new roles should have appropriate titles – you could also suggested bumping Program Managers who have direct reports to a more senior title. “Director of Program Management” or “Senior Program Manager” or something along those lines.

    2. Memyselfandi*

      My previous employer (a small non-profit with a fair number of part-timers) went through a rigorous process of building a graded series of position titles with associated responsibilities and competencies for all positions. It was enormously helpful to everyone and cleared up a lot of gray areas. There were still occasionally inconsistencies (often due to grant requirements) but not only did it give people a clear description of their position that could be communicated both internally and externally, but it also provided a pathway for advancement within the organization. That helped the organization maintain and grow, always a challenge for non-profits. I encourage you to promote something of the sort. Where I currently work the job titles are really horrible and outdated (and not going to change soon) so we are encouraged to develop functional titles. That’s another option to make people feel better about what the do when everyone has the same job title.

      1. Effective Immediately*

        I’m trying to get my current org to do this, and I’d love to know how leadership at your former place came to this decision.

        I’ve even tried writing one out myself that they could work from, and…nothing.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          One place to start is if you’re in an industry that has a professional licensing and/or certification body – many of those associations have job titles and responsibility listings that show what each level of an organization should look like and what each role should do. For example, my (now incorrect) job title was taken from the APMP’s Salary Guide that showed typical proposal development titles and job duties (my role was newly created at the company this year) as was my dotted line manager’s title (his role was also newly created). If your company belongs to any association like that, you may suggest they look for an association-approved salary guide for help in determining appropriate titles for staff.

      2. Kraziekat*

        My google fu is failing, so I’m hoping for some advice. I’m being invited to interview for a position where I would be doing inside sales support AND receptionist, basically, 2 rolls in one. I have more experience as a receptionist (the less paying job) and only limited experience as sales support, so my thought is to look at the two, going by their bottom pay range and average them out. I don’t want to give numbers, but it’s actually smack in the middle of the receptionist range, but well below the sales support range. Is this fair to both parties?

    3. Blarg*

      It’s annoying, but can you get it on it? If your subordinates and very part timers are project managers, aren’t you a senior project manager or project director or VP of project management? May not come with more money or any actual changes, but at least gets you a new email signature and some small satisfaction… and a seeming promotion for resume time.

    4. Yorick*

      I don’t think you’re unreasonable. There’s no reason the woman you talked about should have thought she was getting a better title but didn’t have to do any new work, especially when they were delegated to her.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        That’s true. I originally read it as the boss gave out the title of Program Manager but specifically meant it to cover what that person already did, instead of a promotion to a higher responsibility job per the title change (but probably not salary). Either way, I hope that employee was corrected pretty quickly for just not doing work as assigned.

        Arbitrary title handouts don’t help anyone – not inside the company where people will be confused over which Program Managers can actually do program management, and outside the company when some of these PMs might get interviews but are far underqualified for actual PM work.

    5. Sleepy*

      Thank you for the comments, everyone! I will definitely speak to my boss about it now that I know I’m not alone in thinking this is frustrating.

    6. i forget the name i usually use*

      Wow, the employee did not handle that well either! “Not my job, but I’m not going to say anything, I just won’t do certain tasks I am assigned” is not a good train of thought to have people find out you’ve gone through…

    7. MissDisplaced*

      Inflating titles to make up for low pay is a terrible practice! NO ONE is well served by doing this. Even if the employee thinks the title sounds grand, if they leave they won’t really have the skills if they have truly been doing program management. If you serve clients, they might think they’re getting a senior person, and it’s not the case.

  7. Yogurt pants*

    I’m having issues dealing with a coworker and would like some advice. Aside from them, everything else is adequate so I am not looking to leave–just find ways to deal with said coworker.

    For background, I am a manager in a new department in a company I’ve been working in for 5 years. I was promoted to a manager in that new department and 2 others were promoted alongside me (Nancy and George). I started at entry level and this was my first job. Each of us manager in this department has a counterpart in another department that we work closely with. So, like, Teapot design vs Teapot construction. Im Yorba in teapot design and I work closely with Alex in teapot construction, Nancy works closely with Ronald in TC and George works closely with Elizabeth in TC and so on and so forth.

    George works in a diff location but visits every 2 weeks and works closely with one of the VPs. Since it’s a new department, we’re developing a lot of processes and have weekly meetings to make sure everything is running smoothly. Occasionally, I’m tasked to do something for the other two teams including my own. Generally, the culture is to help each other out and be team players. George and Nancy have about 2 decades of work experience combined more than I do. I have more institutional knowledge and leadership experience but not as much work or field experience as they do.

    The issues are that George is combative and throws us under the bus. They occasionally do things out of left field that if I do them, I get pounded (not literally but you know what I mean hopefully) for them in front of my boss and grandboss. For misunderstandings, George gets a quick explanation from my boss and all is well, but if I misunderstand, George goes in–condescending lectures, multiple msgs etc. This is done in front of Nancy and sometimes my boss & grandboss. I know for a fact that George is telling the VP he works closely with that “Yorba’s an idiot and can’t do her job, her bosses suck too.” Even my bosses think George is going overboard.

    Since I still consider myself “new” i’m trying to find the line between being helpful and overstepping. There was an incident a while ago where multiple people were needing help and I came up with a solution that would help everyone; George didn’t like it and I apologized for overstepping. I apologized and made sure to not do it again.

    Another example of the combativeness is that we are in the middle of implemetning phase 1 of a project that involves moving a task from TC to TD. We did a test run a few weeks ago and I was tasked with making sure all teams were involved and aware. I had verbal and written confirmation that everyone was aware of what we were doing. Cut to now, and this week George sent a message to our group chat saying there’s no communication because the people in TC are surprised that their task is being taken away. This was alarming to all of us, including my g-boss and the rest of the day was spent scrambling to have an urgent meeting, write up a manual etc. This was frustrating because I had properly communicated EVERYTHING to the relevant people. Blame wasn’t pointed at any specific person but seeing as how I had a role in the project, it was easy to feel like I was being called out. However, the core issue lay in George’s counterpart in Teapot construction not communicating properly–which I can totally sympathize with.

    I have been trying to deal by putting myself in George’s shoes–if I worked separately, and my team lead counterpart Elizabeth wasn’t communicating well with me, I would be frustrated as well, but I would have handled it differently than George has so far. At this point I feel like I have done everything to the best of my ability. I generally try to be self reflective and talk to people I trust if I have any doubts–if I do make a mistake, I will apologize and fix myself to ensure that it doesn’t happen again, such as in the ex above. I know this type of attitude is not good at work, but at this point I don’t want to speak to them directly and definitely not go out of my way to help; unfortunately this is against our company culture.

    1. solarpc*

      I think you need to stick up for yourself. It looks like George has some leeway with some people but you also have your own bosses who are seeing this behavior. The email example would have been a good moment to forward over his email (with everyone CC’d) and remind him that everyone was informed and any concerns should have been addressed previously.

      Is he just doing this to you or does he do this to other people? There needs to be a conversation where your bosses talk to George about his attitude and behavior and you should be pushing for it.

      1. Artemesia*

        Wow. So this. George is an active menace to your career and apologizing is fueling him like warm water fuels a hurricane. When he asserted that these people were ‘surprised’ you should have gotten very aggressive about re-circulating to the bosses he was complaining to the information that had been sent and I might have noted that it is dysfunctional for someone to go off half cocked without reviewing the information first. George was notified on August XX of the change as were his entire staff; perhaps he overlooked this information but he might want to review the information before making reckless charges about other departments and managers. Time to play some hardball with this guy or be his eternal patsy; he is trying to get you fired.

        1. Yogurt pants*

          Well — aside from George being weird about this stuff, to clarify, these changes were on the other team (Teapot Construction). I had communicated to their mgmt, but their mgmt didn’t communicate with the team which indirectly affected George. There are management issues on that side, but that’s not my place to interfere as they are under my grandboss.

          1. Pennalynn Lott*

            Could you have done a Reply All saying something like, “It’s unfortunate that the TC team was taken by surprise since the change was communicated to their management on X-date (see email below)”?

        2. i forget the name i usually use*

          Oof yeah. He is playing a different, meaner game than you, and “putting yourself in his shoes” is wayyy more emotional energy than he is spending on you.

          I also think it’s time to stop thinking of yourself as new!

      2. Mazzy*

        Yes. It’s not unprofessional to say “you got mad when I did X, then you did X, and I don’t see the situations as being different.”

      3. Yogurt pants*

        Any tips on how I can do that? Whenever anything happens, I just freeze, and think really hard if there’s any merit to it and if there is, fix myself so I don’t make that mistake again. I try to take the high road and be diplomatic as possible and avoid throwing snark right back. I’m coming from a position of having less experience, so I have to prove myself way more than the others.

        I thought he was doing it to just me, but in this recent example, it was really directed to all of us. George could have easily privately spoken to my boss (who’s also his boss, George and I are PEERS) and said “hey boss, my counterpart in TC is not responsive to me or communicating info to their team” rather than blasting us and saying that no one communicates. My boss had the confirmation but we had to proceed with the meetings and manuals etc so that everyone is on the same page.

        I guess if I reflect on it, my attempts to help were seen as overstepping, but..I’m in a rock and hard place. If something comes up and I KNOW HOW TO HELP but don’t, my grand-boss will look at me and wonder why I’m not helping, whereas if I DO help, I risk George doing the same. So, damned if I do, damned if I don’t.

        1. Mama Bear*

          If you and George have the same boss, go to that boss and talk to them. “I’ve noticed that when…It’s making it difficult to…I’ve tried….I’m asking for your assistance with…since it is impacting my career/work.”

          You might also consider calling George out at the time. “My experience with x is that we should do y. I realize this may not be what you are used to doing, but I find this works well. I respectfully ask that you take time to consider this idea. The negativity is not warranted here.” Or “I don’t understand why you are being negative about my idea, George. Based on x and y, this is a valid path forward.”

          I wonder – does George feel threatened by you?

          1. Yogurt pants*

            I honestly cannot imagine why he would feel threatened by me. They have 15 years more experience than I do in both the work that we do and in leadership. I really considered them someone I could trust and learn from.

            1. Atlanta*

              This is exactly why he might feel threatened. Someone with 15 fewer years of experience who is nonetheless a peer could be deeply threatening. You are not responsible for those feelings (if they exist) and it is not your fault in any way, but he may feel like he should be “above” you in seniority.

              I agree with Mama Bear’s idea of calling him out but I’d maybe say something more like “Oh, do you see problems with my approach? What are they? Why?” If he is threatened then I think it might not be helpful to dwell on your experiences rather than his. If you try to co-opt him as a resource he might feel less able to attack you.

              1. Yogurt pants*

                When we first got promoted, I did see him as a resource, exactly for this reason–after a few conversations, I heard (and I have 100% reason to believe this is true) they were telling the VP that I don’t know anything about what I’m doing.

                I’m not interested in being a threat to anyone or play in dirty politics, I just want to do my job with reasonably pleasant people and not wanting to feel like I’m gonna flip a table. (not literally of course).

        2. Dusty Bunny*

          In my opinion, there can be problems with taking the high road, because the squeakier wheel (George) gets the most attention. At least, this has been my experience in corporate life. I have learned to combat my own Georges with transparency, documentation, and as much as I can manage it, a calm demeanor. When I am the source of confusion or screw up, I own up to it, and work to fix it.

          If my George is ranting about something, I try to maintain a very calm, even tone, kind of how you would with a child throwing a tantrum. Not condescending, but calm, neutral. Just the facts. And I am able to produce documentation on all sorts of things, because I put it in writing. My MO is – if it was only a conversation, then it never happened.

          This has produced two effects over time . 1) I am known as a resource for correct information; and 2) Even though I am not very far up the food chain, my word carries weight with my boss and grandboss, because they see that I play fair.

          My only other thought is even if it is not your team, but it impacts your team and you know how to improve the situation, share it. You can frame as in the spirit of communication, teamwork, selling more teapots; whatever makes sense. But don’t let the Georges of the world have any ammo along the lines of… “and she knew how we could improve this, but never said anything! Hoarding information! Sabotaging us all! Just waiting for us to fall on our faces!”

          I would like to tell you this level of insight came along in my first job. Nope. About 10 years deep into a career when I finally realized, maybe, just maybe, my reaction is sometimes the problem.

          1. Angry with numbers*

            Yes, document everything, I have certain people who I send a “per our conversation” emails to regularly because if I don’t have proof they will throw me , and anyone else, under the bus if you don’t have proof you were only doing what they asked.

          2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

            This is really important. I had a workplace bully. She was in her early 20s when I was in my early 30s, and I really didn’t have any inclination to get involved in Mean Girls garbage in the workplace as an adult, so I didn’t.

            Months and months of her spewing poison about me behind my back, however, meant that whatever labels she’d invented for me stuck, and my ability to move forward in the company was badly hamstrung. Even after she took another job, dropped herself down to uber-part time, and went completely incommunicado so we spent months struggling to figure out what happened while also keeping up with her workload, she was the “good” one and I was the “awful” one.

    2. NW Mossy*

      How’s your relationship with your own boss? Would you feel comfortable going to them and asking for some advice on how to deal with George? An opener I might use here is “I’d like to get your thoughts on how I can work more productively with George going forward. I’m finding that in situations where things aren’t going well (like the recent communication issue with Elizabeth on the phase 1 rollout), he gets pretty worked up and is sending messages saying that X or Y is the cause before we’re sure that’s the case. I take his concerns seriously and want to fix things where I can, but I’m not sure what else I can or should do to defuse his reactions. What do you think?”

      The benefits of this are twofold: one, it names an issue you’re having (rocky working relationship with George) so they’re aware of it, and two, you can often get some useful insight that will help you frame what to do next. Since it sounds like George’s rapid-escalation behavior impacts your bosses too, there’s a good chance that they’ll nod in agreement and say “yup, George goes to 11 when a 3 will do, we know this, don’t worry that his dramatics are reflecting poorly on you.”

      1. Yogurt pants*

        I have a good relationship with him. Im comfortable with him. He’s on leave right now and will be out for another month. But he knows that George goes overboard and the issues I’m having. He has given me advice but also wants me to be more independent and develop my own judgment on these things so I’m trying to rely on him less. Last thing I want to do is go to my grandboss about it.

        1. Mama Bear*

          Who is acting for your boss? Even if your boss wants you to handle it on your own, it may be good to make a paper trail detailing what happened when, especially if George is a blocker or his behavior caused problems (like poor communication = mad scramble).

        2. NW Mossy*

          Ah, that helps! In that case, I’d pivot to make it more of an “I intend to do X and Y when this happens, cool with that?” approach. It’s marking the issue and that you’ve got a plan, but also inviting feedback on it. For the specifics here, I’d aim for something like “I’m going to focus on acknowledging George’s input where warranted, but brushing it off where it isn’t – I think I’ve apologized more than I need to and it’s undercutting my credibility.”

          Developing independence and judgment as a leader is great and necessary, but that doesn’t mean you completely stop asking for input. I’ve been leading people for years but still solicit my boss’s input on some of the thornier interpersonal dynamics because I respect her take and she gives me great counsel.

    3. Close Bracket*

      Gee, a double standard regarding behavior with respect to a dude and a lady person. I’m shocked, I tell you, shocked.

      Stop apologizing for your behavior, first. If George’s complaints have substance to them, address the substance of his complaints publicly without apologizing. Talk about solutions and what you will do differently going forward.

      You say you have a good relationship with your manager, so address George’s tone privately with him. Since he wants you to come up with solutions on your own, talk about what you are trying and what the results are and ask for suggestions. Don’t be too afraid to go to your grandboss. I get that you don’t want to go to them first, but don’t rule them out, either. Also don’t be afraid to go to George’s boss with complaints.

      Finally, watch your own reactions. This:
      Blame wasn’t pointed at any specific person but seeing as how I had a role in the project, it was easy to feel like I was being called out. However, the core issue lay in George’s counterpart in Teapot construction not communicating properly
      You felt called out, but you know who the person was who was not communicating properly, and it was not you. Don’t be so quick to feel called out when the problem is not with you.

      Good luck

      1. Yogurt pants*

        Thank you, that’s helpful!

        Btw, I switched the genders to be more anonymous. But George and I are the same gender. I’m not sure if that affects anything.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        This:

        Stop apologizing for your behavior, first. If George’s complaints have substance to them, address the substance of his complaints publicly without apologizing. Talk about solutions and what you will do differently going forward.

        And this:

        You felt called out, but you know who the person was who was not communicating properly, and it was not you. Don’t be so quick to feel called out when the problem is not with you.

        George is not your father and should not be publicly scolding you or anyone else like he is. Conversely, you do not have to fall on the sword for others at work. Calmly and rationally discuss where any communication breakdowns may have occurred, yes, but as quoted, do not get defensive and start apologizing for things you had nothing to do with.

        1. Yogurt pants*

          Well….I apologized because it actually was a mistake on my part. Multiple people had needed help with something, and I came up with a solution that appeased everyone involved. However, that solution was bypassing the process that’s set in place. I think I had good intentions but essentially I was stepping on another manager’s toes which I can see is not appropriate. I figured, that was a mistake of mine, and learn from it–so one thing I’m still learning is how to draw the line between overstepping and being helpful.

          (Prior to that incident, someone had complained that I brushed them off by telling them to talk to their manager so I over corrected and ten this happened with George).

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I get this, but when dealing with someone like George, it’s best not to give them any further ammunition to use against you. Explain your thought process and then note that, next time, you will go back through the proper steps, but don’t be quick to self-flagellate in front of him.

            1. Yogurt pants*

              I agree with that — don’t want to give further ammunition. My default has always been “you messed up? own up to it and don’t do it again.” but never considered that some people do not deserve the apology.

              1. Fortitude Jones*

                Exactly. Reasonable people with reasonable responses to mistakes? Absolutely apologize to those people. But people like George? Nah, he’ll be alright.

    4. Aquawoman*

      You have been in the company/industry for 5 years, you have more leadership experience than George, the company promoted you — you deserve it and are qualified for it. Please, I beg you, stop with the “I’m new, I need to prove myself” thing. You HAVE proven yourself. The more deferential you are, the more George is going to push your boundaries. And you’re making yourself responsible for “managing” George, which isn’t your responsibility and won’t work anyway.

      You are worried about looking bad for the “communication” issue but GEORGE is the one who made that into a fire drill, HE is the one who should look bad. (His) overreacting like that is not helpful. I think in the moment, you could say, “George, I did communicate this to your counterpart in TC, as you can see by the attached email/message. Maybe we should all take a breath and loop her in to see what the real issue is.” For tone stuff, you’d be amazed at how much traction you can get with people if you say “I feel like you’re lecturing me.” Not everyone, and George may be the exception, but it’s worth a try, even if for your own. Or, if it’s front of a group, you can say something like, “I think it would help to dial down the intensity and focus on the issues” or something like that. Most people don’t enjoy unpleasantness. Some of this I learned from a program called “Respectful Confrontation,” run by a guy named Joe Weston, which literally changed my life.

    5. LilySparrow*

      George isn’t attacking you because you are incompetent or new. They are trying to undermine and paralyze you because they see you as a direct threat to their seniority and their job.

      You have to quit apologizing to George, and quit being scared of George’s temper tantrums.

      That is exactly all they are: displays of anger and aggression in order to intimidate you.

      Don’t react immediately, don’t default to snark. You’re quite right about that.

      But when you do respond, assert your own knowledge, and your own authority. You and George are equals. If George has something useful to contribute, that you could honestly learn from, then George can put on their big-kid pants and communicate like a grownup and a professional.

      When George lies about you not doing your job right (which is what the group chat incident boils down to), correct them. And if they do it in a group chat, correct them in front of the group.

      “George, you are mistaken. This plan was first communicated to X on (date), with follow-up discussions on (dates). If you have an issue in communicating with X, you need to take it up with them.”

      I imagine George has issues getting information from a lot of people, because nobody else wants to talk to them any more than you do.

      1. pcake*

        This – exactly this!

        And since you freeze up when he bullies you, spend some time at home and figure out what to say in that situation in advance. Then think about it till you have it firmly in your head. That way, you’ll be ready with a reply when it happens again.

        I’d point out that he doesn’t react the same when other people make mistakes as when I do, and I’d very much appreciate my mistakes being dealt with in a professional manner. I would also remind him that he’s not my boss, and I’d say these things whether or not others were present. All said in a firm, stern but not at all hostile voice.

        If George lies or misleads, point that out immediately. Again, calmly but sternly, not accusing or hostile.

        If you can add specific facts, do so. And after each incident, write an email to yourself with the date, time, what happened and who was present. Create a record… just in case.

        1. Marthooh*

          Practicing what to say in advance is good; another idea is to literally take notes, in a notebook, when George gets to ranting, and then tell him you will look into the matter, or you will think about what he’s said. That gives you something to do in the moment instead of apologizing or spluttering out an explanation or freezing up.

    6. Yogurt pants*

      Thank you so much everyone, I really appreciate the thoughtful replies. I’m leaving work now and will be reading the replies on my way home and over the weekend but may not be able to reply bac. But thank you!

      1. Exhausted Educator Was Exhausted*

        All I can say is that I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. Bullies suck.

    7. Laure001*

      My ex-husband, a charming guy, said : “when I feel weakness, I want to bite.” And then “An apology is a sign of weakness.”
      So… You see the twisted logic here.
      People like my ex-husband, or like George, are rare, but they are very dangerous to people like you (or me) because what we see as diplomatic, rational, thoughtful, empathetic behavior, they see as… proof of weakness, and that weakness generates in them a sort of destructive rage.
      They, metaphorically, want to bite.
      So with these people – and only with them, not with normal human beings – you can’t use the tools you generally use in your professional life – diplomacy, logic, “do they have a point,” etc. You have to fight back
      Never apologize. Never reason with them. Seriously! I’ll say it again, if you try to reason with them, they will use what you said against you and try to destroy you.
      And oh God. Do not put yourself in their shoes! They will eat you alive.
      It’s war. If they accuse you of something, throw the accusation back at them. Use scathing irony. Ignore them. It’s against all your principles, its again all your habits… But a show of strength is the only way to make them back down.
      Of course, with all the “normal” people, keep being empathetic, reasonable, diplomatic. You are in the right, and they are the anomaly.

  8. Jax*

    I started a new position as a librarian! (finally, woo hoo!) It’s my first week at my branch and last night one of my coworkers told me that on Fridays the staff wears Hawaiian shirts. I said, “okay” thinking it was a prank on the new guy.

    I walk into work this morning and nope, not a prank. Everyone was wearing Hawaiian shirts! We all got a good laugh about it!

      1. Lalaith*

        My husband teaches a summer program for the month of July, and he wears a Hawaiian shirt every day. He only actually has about 6 of them that he rotates through, but it’s enough to get by :) He added a new one this year and got lots of compliments on it!

      2. gsa*

        Oh my goodness, my Grandmother used to say…

        I thought having one, we’re talking HI shirts right, for every day of the week was nearly too many.

    3. Platypus Enthusiast*

      First of all, congratulations! Librarians are the very best of people, so thank you for all the amazing work you do. It sounds like you’re working with a fun group of people, and I hope everything goes well!

    4. Boba tea*

      i’d love to walk into a library full of hawaiian shirt-wearing librarians! i ‘ll prob join next time too lol

    6. Also a librarian*

      Congratulations!

      Hawaiian shirts always remind me of my 12th grade English teacher (in a good way).

      1. iknikjn*

        Hawaiian shirts always remind me of my 12th grade International Business/9th/11th Communications Technology teacher (in a good way) as he used to wear them every Friday! It was especially nice when you were in the 1st or last periods of the day in his classes – a nice way to start the weekend and get into weekend mode!

      2. Muriel Heslop*

        We have a history teacher with a huge wardrobe of Hawaiian shirts – he loves them! Does every school have one of these?

    7. Parenthetically*

      This is delightful. Librarians are some of the best humans. Congrats on your new job as one of them. :)

  9. LilacLily*

    Have you guys ever taken a sabbatical from work?

    Long story short: I never had a moment to stop and breathe. From high school I went straight to college, six months in I got what would be my first out of three internships, and after I graduated and got my first job I never had much more than seven days between one job and the other. I’ve been job searching for about four months now, and as you all may know, it’s an emotionally draining process, especially given that I’m not happy at my current job, and then add in the fact that I’m highly prone to depression and this is just a recipe for disaster.

    Thus I’ve been thinking about taking a few months sabbatical – if my job is able to let me go I can collect unemployment benefits for four months, which would be enough to cover my bills, plus I can withdraw my government trust fund, which means I can job search from home and get my head in place without worrying about money. It’s a bit scary to do this; I’ve never quit a job without having anything else lined up, but my job has been driving me up the walls and I’ve been seriously questioning if ruining my mental health over it is worth it. Thankfully my boss is (mostly) great and from the talks we’ve had I don’t think he would be opposed to it; he knows I’m unhappy at my current role, that I was hoping for a promotion (which is impossible because the only role above mine is his, and furthermore he’s a director while I’m an entry level employee), and recently I even told him I’m job searching. He was super comprehensive and gave me his full support, so I’m planning on asking to be let go after a coworker comes back from his two weeks vacations in November.

    Has any of you done this before? Left a job without anything else lined up? I would love to hear your experiences and opinions on this.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      FWIW I was able to swing a month off between starting this job and my last. I don’t think you can guarantee it, but it was something I negotiated at the offer stage. It’s easier to do when you’re a little more senior and they really want you. I probably wouldn’t have taken this (rather lateral) job if I hadn’t gotten that delayed start date. I suspect they could sense that, so they gave it me. So often a new hiring search drags on and on that they realize one more month really isn’t the biggest deal in the world.

    2. sabbatical*

      Well, it sounds like you have a bit of a safety net, so if you think you can swing it, I’d say go for it.

      I had a little bit of a nest egg saved, and did this once. The problem was, it took much longer to find something right when I was ready to return. I’d recommend having more cash on hand than you think you’ll need.

    3. little orange teapot*

      I’ve done it twice, and even successfully job hunted from halfway around the world. I used the breaks for significant travel, because that’s what I like to do. On one hand: I’ve gotten at least two job interviews in my field because of the experience of travelling; I’ve also been able to claim skills because of the travel. On the other hand: do your finances carefully, or have a soft spot to land. (parents, friends, siblings). Getting a job in your field can take longer than planned. So, budget carefully and enjoy getting to know yourself again.

    4. Psyche*

      Definitely make sure you would be eligible for unemployment (and make sure you clarify with your boss whether you are resigning or being let go). I’m not sure what country you are in, but in the US you are generally not eligible for unemployment if you resign.

      1. LilacLily*

        I live in South America, and where I live there’s three options: you can quit, be let go with cause, or let go without cause. Out of all three I can only get unemployment benefits and withdraw my trust fund on the third option.

        Since I’ve been job searching for jobs in Europe (I have European citizenship), back when I told my boss I was job searching I explained that, if I were to leave, it would help me a lot if I could come to a mutual agreement with the company and be let go without cause so I can get all these benefits (the money would help me set a deposit on an apartment and buy all the things I won’t be able to take with me). He understood and said that he wouldn’t mind doing that at all; he’s just not sure if it’s possible but he promised he’d look into it and fight for me when the time came. I won’t take the sabbatical otherwise, so there’s no worries there.

        1. AshK434*

          This seems wrong to me. Like it feels like your using benefits that should go to people who may actually need it.

          1. Madison*

            I agree. That seems like you’re really trying to take advantage of a system for a situation that doesn’t apply.

    5. Ewesername*

      Yep. Saved up before leaving my last position and took two months off planned and one month of job search before starting my current position. It did wonders for my mental well being. Had some family issues leading up to the break and was very unhappy with the direction the company I worked for was going. So, took a break. Had a little holiday. Took some classes, which ended up helping me get the new, much better job. When asked in interviews about the gap, I simply said I was upgrading skills. If you can afford the time off, take it.

      1. LilacLily*

        That’s one of the things I was also planning on; taking classes. Whenever I say that I’m unhappy in my position everyone suggests I study something that would allow me to change fields. However, I leave my house at 5am and come back home between 7 and 8pm, and just thinking about sacrificing the little time I have for myself drives me up the walls. I also have ADHD so studying by myself is unusually hard, and because of the current state of my mental health it’s almost impossible. If I had some time to focus on just studying it would be incredible.

    6. Blarg*

      Doing it now. Paid off my student loans and saved that money so that I could decompress, feel refreshed, move across the country. It’s been 2.5 months. I am job searching. Which sucks, cause of course it does, but no one has flinched about my lack of a current job. I think it helps that I moved and also that I have some significant accomplishments/ projects from old job that show a clear “got x to a place where it was stable and was ready to be transitioned to someone else” kind of thing.

      I’d been working non stop since I was 14. Three degrees, many (many) jobs, several states, and nearly 25 years later … I’ve enjoyed not working way more than I anticipated. I thought I’d get bored. Haven’t yet. It’s been awesome and I’m actually struggling to want to get back in the game, even though I’m going to run out of savings in another couple months. I thought I’d be more antsy. I highly encourage a break if you can take it. I feel like a human person again.

      1. Imprudence*

        I did, a very long time ago.

        I worked for local authority (Council) in the UK, and my husband had the opportunity to work abroad for a year. I went with him. We were quite young, and I had only had that job 2 or 3 years. Neither of us hadhada gap year befoe University — we’d done school, University, postgrad, work, so we thought we were due a change.

        When we came back I got back in touch with my old boss and they …. made a job for me … this was pretty unheard of in Local authorities, but I had done a good job before I left and my boss liked me,

        The year off was great. And the job I came back to was better than the one I left.

        If you have a chance, go for it.

    7. SaffyTaffy*

      I have!
      The first time it happened, I was moving from abroad back to the US. I found a job in my field the day after I landed. Brag-worthy, but not very helpful to you.

      A few years later, I left another job without something else lined up because I needed to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital for a week, and then when I came out I had daily, 40-hour-per-week therapy for about a month. Once therapy dropped down to twice-weekly and then weekly I started to look for work. I did temp work while looking for something better. My advice in this area: quit work BEFORE you need to go to a psychiatric hospital.

      I stayed there happily for a few years, and then the department was downsized from 16 to 6 people, and I started getting unemployment for the first time. I supplemented this by doing freelance work of all kinds: i asked all my friends who owned businesses what crummy jobs they needed done. so i applied makeup to models for a photographer, photographed vintage magazines for an Ebay seller, built a client database for a fabric wholesaler, helped an ESL student perfect his American accent, did runway modeling for a consignment shop’s grand opening, and finally got part-time work in a (different) clothing store. Then I got hired for the job I’m at now, where I’ve been happy and successful for 4 years.

      The freelance stuff is what saved me, both by giving me extra money and by making me feel like I was “still working.”

    8. Meredith*

      With the caveat that you’re often seen as more employable when you’re still employed, you should have a backup plan before you run out of money, and you don’t know what they economy will be up to – then yes, I think that really sounds lovely.

    10. Acornia*

      I would not do it if the only way to do it was to draw unemployment insurance. That’s not what unemployment insurance is for.
      You can “ask to be let go” but that’s quitting a job and you may not be able to collect on the unemployment after all. Which would make for a rotten surprise.
      Find a new job and arrange the start date so you get a short break in between.

      1. [insert witty username here]*

        Agree with Acornia. Unemployment benefits are for people who are unemployed through no fault of their own. This would be your decision. Your employer is unlikely to agree to this plan, unless they had plans for layoffs otherwise. The employer’s taxes are still affected by employees who claim unemployment.

        This is a bad idea unless you can finance this hiatus on your own.

        1. LilacLily*

          This is actually a common thing where I live, where companies will come to an agreement for the employee to be “fired” when they need to quit. The understanding is that it isn’t fair that you can’t withdraw the money in your own trust fund, so based on that most companies won’t mind doing it to help the employee that’s leaving.

        2. Kate*

          I would consider taking UE benefits towards a break between jobs but only if you had some additional savings to put towards your living expense once you start job searching again. I would fear that if I knew I could take 4-months off – if after 3-months I started job searching again, what if it took me another 3-months to find a job? As long as you can support yourself long enough – err on the side of a longer job hunt than anticipated – go for it.

          Man, I’d love to take a break. You’ve got me thinking :)

      2. Deanna Troi*

        Acornia is correct. Unemployment insurance is for those who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own. It is unfair to all of us whose employers pay into unemployment insurance to abuse it by gaming the system. Essentially being asking to be laid off because one doesn’t feel like working is fraud. Imagine if everyone did that – the system would collapse.

    11. Hiring Mgr*

      Yes, I’m just finishing up a nearly three month gap in between jobs where I used the time to do alot of traveling with family, stuff with the kids, etc.. I left my job with nothing lined up but I’m in an industry and location (tech sales leadership in Boston) where I knew I could easily find something when needed. Also, I had a good deal of $$ saved and a nice parting gift from my company so that wasn’t a huge factor

      The main reasons I did this were general burnout/losing interest in work and wanting to do something special (we did a month long European trip) with my wife and kids.) Now that the kids are back in school I’m getting bored, so I’m starting something new in a couple of weeks.

      My advice is if you have the finances and can swing it, absolutely go for it!

    12. anonagain*

      Have you asked about taking an unpaid sabbatical where you’d return to this job after? That has its challenges too, but if it were an option, it might give you the chance to see if your current job is really the problem or if you are burned out and need a break.

      I quit a job with nothing else lined up. I don’t regret it (it was a really destructive situation), but I would’ve preferred to have time off without the pressure of job searching. My unsuccessful job search made the time less restorative than it would’ve been otherwise.

      1. LilacLily*

        Unfortunately I haven’t a lot of money saved up, so I wouldn’t be able to take unpaid time off. Not to mention I *really* don’t want to come back to this job. Sure, it could be worse, but back when I quit my last job and came to this one, one of the first things I asked my boss during the interview was if this role had any sort of career development. At the time I loved the answer he gave me, but now I see he just said a bunch of fancy words to deflect my question; my job has zero opportunities for career progression. None. Nada. Either I take a lateral move within the company or I’m stuck in this role for the foreseeable future.

        In this job I’m basically doing the same thing I was doing at my first job six whole years ago, but it’s a much less demanding job, which means I’m bored out of my mind 70% of the time and not learning any new skills whatsoever. I’m dreadfully stagnant and I really need to move on to a job that will allow me to move up in my career.

        That, and also the company sings its praises about how much they care about employee well-being, and then they settle in an office located in a completely isolated part of the city without considering or caring how much of a blow on the personal life of 95% of the employees who work for them it is.

        1. anonagain*

          I hate that. Managers should be honest about the jobs they’re hiring for. I find it so much easier to cope with the downsides of a job when I have a clear picture of what they are going in.

          I really hope you’re able to take a break and find a good job.

    13. Perrin*

      I’ve done it twice (for reference I’m 37) – first time for about 9 months and the second time for about a year – different employers of course! For me the easiest part, which surprised me, was explaining it at interviews. During my off time I travelled a little, spent time with family and volunteered. I think everyone should have the option to do it if they want to – I’d spent my 20s working all the hours the universe sent, saving frantically and then I got to my 30s and thought why aren’t I doing things I enjoy more? I’ve now landed in a 3 day per week job at executive level and have no regrets – and have lots of free time as a result. A happy medium of sorts.

    14. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I did. When I was 31, I saved up a bunch of money and left my job (in my career field, in which I’d been working for 8 years) to move across the country. I left that job in May 2012 and deliberately stayed unemployed (barring a 10-hrs/week minimum wage job for a couple months just to get myself out of the house) until January 2014, at which point I got headhunted for a contract (like, called out of the blue, I didn’t apply and in fact until my first day of work I had a mild paranoid concern that I was being trolled or something) to cover someone’s long-term leave, back in my career field. They hired me on permanently that July and I just had my fifth anniversary, and was promoted into early tier management three and a half years ago.

      1. LilacLily*

        Oh my god that sounds like a dream!!! I’m so glad everything worked out for you. That’s my biggest worry, I think; all the “what if”s that can come up while I’m just taking it easy. A lot of people have told me to move to the place where I’m trying to get a job, but I just keep thinking, what if I don’t get a job? What if my money runs out? What if it doesn’t work out? And so I end up paralyzed with fear, and meanwhile the years are passing by and I’m not doing anything I like with my life. So lately I’ve been thinking that, as long as I have the means to do it and I have a solid plan as to what to do in case everything falls through, I should just take the leap and do it, because if it’s meant to happen then it’s going to happen.

    15. Clever Name*

      My boss did this. Her husband is a teacher, so he has summers off. One year, she decided to quit her job and travel with her husband for 3 months. We hired her after her sabbatical as a temporary “as-needed” position. Turns out we really needed her and hired her full time (she later was promoted to lead the department). :)

    16. Anon for this one*

      Long story short: I’ve never taken a sabbatical myself, but have been in workplaces where people have, and it was even part of the policy (vs an ad-hoc arrangement) in two cases.

      I’m afraid that as a not-immediate-colleague but person that works with these people in some collaborative context… I have a bit of a negative view.

      It comes off to me as having enough privilege (money, safety nets, whatever) to be able to “nope out” of one’s life for a while, and go and work on whatever the sabbatical project is, but it’s a kick in the teeth to the remaining employees that have to pick up the work in the meantime.

      Should we be glad for the sabbatical-taker? Should we send them off with good wishes? – sure, because that’s what office etiquette dictates. But we are not “glad” for you on the whole; we’re probably resenting your ‘privilege’.

      I am also in your position with never having had time to breathe since 1999…. and I still don’t!

      1. Anon for this one*

        And actually, if the person is perceived as having such a “safety net”… they may be first in line for layoffs in the future, as it’s percieved they need the job less than someone else. Food for thought!

      2. Poppy*

        I confess, I wouldn’t want to be included in that “we” who aren’t glad for the co-worker taking a sabbatical and in fact may be resenting their “privilege.”

        I say this as someone who is so overworked, exhausted, miserable, and burnt-out that I’m quitting next week without another job lined up. I know my departure is going to cause an even bigger workload for my already overworked colleagues, and I feel bad about that. On the other hand, I also know that if I don’t leave, I’ll be dead or in the hospital within 12 months. (I’ve been putting in 60+-hour weeks for nearly a year, since a couple of key people left our team and a zealous workaholic was promoted to director.)

        My perspective is that if an organization chooses to be so chronically understaffed that someone leaving for any reason feels like “a kick in the teeth” to the people remaining, the problem is not a policy allowing leaves. Would you resent someone who could afford to take a long honeymoon, or adopt a baby overseas, or take some extra time off to recover from surgery? Or who got recruited away by another employer? (Well, TBH I would privately struggle with feeling envious and resentful. But I don’t believe those feelings are healthy. There’s always someone who’s better off than you, and dwelling on that can corrode your soul.)

        I think any resentment should be directed at an employer that doesn’t hire enough staffers to deliver all the output expected of them, taking into account that there will always be turnover for many reasons. I had hoped to take a sabbatical of a month or so from my job. That would have provided much-needed time to catch up with all the things I sacrificed this past year — sleep, time with friends and my aging parents, hobbies, turning my sad, empty trashpit of a house back into a functional home, and cooking my own food instead of just microwaving frozen meals. But even though my company’s employee handbook theoretically allows for unpaid leaves without a rationale such as illness, national service, etc., they have to be granted on an ad-hoc basis and I was denied (without a reason given).

        So instead of my being gone for a while and then coming back, refreshed and ready to hit the ground running again, I’ve been on a downward spiral of decreasing morale and productivity. And soon I’ll be gone permanently (with parting gifts of insomnia, high blood pressure, acid reflux, and anxiety). Management did at least let my boss hire a replacement, but he won’t start till a month after I leave. And even though he’s a great candidate, it’ll be a long time before he’s fully up to speed.

        Meanwhile, I’ve been having decent luck getting interviews, but no offers yet. I have to have faith I’ll find another job before too long. Hopefully a year from now I’ll be able to look back and say how much happier I am at my new job, rather than panhandling at the stoplight with a sign saying WILL PROVIDE RELEVANCE FOR FOOD.

    17. Snarflepants*

      If you can take sabbatical on savings alone, you should do it. Don’t apply for the unemployment benefits. Unemployment benefits are only for people who have lost their job through no fault of their own. You’d be unemployed by choice.

      1. LilacLily*

        After seeing people’s comments here I might not get the unemployment benefits after all, just withdraw my savings. I agree it’s not good to abuse the system, no matter how tempting it may be.

        1. Deanna Troi*

          Thank you for coming back and responding to the comments. I’m very impressed with your reaction to the different opinions. May we all be so gracious when getting advice that might not be what we hoped to hear!

  10. Potentially declining an offer*

    What’s the best way to decline a job offer in this circumstance?

    I have an offer for a job I’m not sure I want to take. I have also received a counter offer from my current employer. (I’m aware of the issues some orgs have with this, but I’m comfortable that I won’t be harming my career here if I take the counter offer.)

    I still have to make my decision. If I decline the offer from the new place, do I tell them that I received a counter offer, or do I just say that I’ve decided that it’s not the right fit for me at this time?

    I don’t want to burn any bridges with the new place because I have many more years to work and I may want to apply there again in the future.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      You can absolutely say it’s not the right fit at this time without burning bridges. We had someone do that after being made an offer last year, and we just hired her in another role about a month ago. No hard feelings.

      2. PantaloonsOnFire*

        Absolutely this. It’s probably also polite and useful to throw in some context, so they a) know this was a rational decision on your part, not a flaky whim, and b) have a better sense of the kind of job you would be able to joyfully accept. When you say your bit about it not being “the right fit at this time” throw something in about what would potentially make a position with their company the right fit at a future time–or even ask them to keep you in mind if they have an opening that fits certain criteria.

        1. Potentially declining an offer*

          The good (?) thing is that since I have been conflicted about this from the beginning, I was pretty open throughout the process about what I love about my current job and what I was looking for in the new one. There’s an aspect that I will lose if I leave the current job, and we’ve discussed that, so I don’t think it will be a huge surprise to the new folks if I wind up declining.

    2. Dana B.S.*

      First – have you accepted the offer and are now turning it down? Or are they still waiting for a response? If you have accepted, then I think it would be nice to explain that the circumstances of your previous acceptance have changed. If not, then it’s up to you and the standards of your industry. If you do explain that it involves a counter-offer, they may be wary of future applications.

        1. twig*

          DON’T tell them about the counter offer.

          They may misinterpret the situation as you going through the interview process and wasting everyone’s time just to get a counter offer out of your current employer.

          That being said: Congratulations on both the offer and the counter!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Declining due to another offer is always a reasonable thing to do! Most places won’t use it against you.

      The only time someone has burned their bridge with us by declining was when we offered someone the job they interviewed for, then they were all “Yeah that shift isn’t gonna work though, can I do the other one?” and we had it clear, in the posting, in the interview itself it’s just one spot, on that shift. In the words of Kevin O’Leary, that person is indeed “dead” to us.

      Seriously if he just said “I got another job, so I’m going that way instead.” Fine. Literally lie to me before you tell me something so ballsy as “Oh yeah so it’s not the right shift tho whoops byeeeee.”

  11. Dana B.S.*

    Happy Friday! Looking for some resume advice for my husband. He is currently pursuing a degree in aerospace engineering and the internship fair is next week. Prior to going back to school, he was a high school science & computer teacher for 8 years. He worked at 4 different schools and taught 10 different subjects. He definitely knows that his resume needs to say more than just “taught kids”. But how does he list his achievements for the 4 different schools? His main achievements are basically the same. Should he just lump them together and say High School Teacher – 2010-2018?

    1. PantaloonsOnFire*

      Lumping them together is probably ideal. Have him think about exactly what kinds of internships (and eventually, careers) he wants and tailor his list of achievements to showcase only the most relevant and transferable skills he demonstrated as a high school teacher. That might vary widely depending on his long-term goals. But some things, like capacity for project management, leadership/mentorship, recognition for excellence, etc. are applicable to many kinds of work.

    2. Not A Manager*

      I was just working on someone’s resume with a similar issue. I would put as the heading “high school teacher” with the years. You can list the schools under that in a weaker font, or you can list them within your bullet points if that makes more sense.

      In the bullet points, decide if the most impactful information is the subjects, or the achievements. If it’s the subjects, group them into relevant bundles so you don’t have 10 bullet points. If it’s the achievements, list them in the bullet points and mention the subjects as part of that.

      1. Artemesia*

        I have a BIL whose science class designed a project that was launched into space (well the rocket exploded about 500 feet up which was almost as gratifying to the students watching it at White Sands as if the science project had made it into space LOL); he got a grant for this. This sort of achievement would then go under the HS teacher X-y. Or whatever major things he is proud of about what his students accomplished. Maybe he managed science fairs or had X# of students who won them; maybe his students learned to do some particularly difficult technique; maybe he supervised the building of competition robots — whatever he can list to demonstrate his competence in the field and as an instructor.

    3. Captain Raymond Holt*

      I have a for-profit professional career track and a college faculty (part-time) career track. My resume has a section for “Business Employment” and “Teaching Experience.” I put my full time professional jobs under “Technology Employment” and my college faculty gigs under “Teaching Experience.” I list the teaching jobs as a group (four across three institutions) and then some bullet points about what I’ve accomplished that cross apply to business roles. I’m in business operations and I talk about facilitating conversation, developing students and helping improve department/course policies and process.

    4. Scarlett*

      I was a teacher before I moved into my current career. I taught for 7 years across 4 different schools (2 districts) and have them all lumped together in my resume under – HS English Teacher, . I didn’t even list the names of the schools where I taught, since it wouldn’t really matter to prospective employers since they are in a completely different field. I’ve had a variety of jobs at different organizations since I left the classroom and have never had someone voice a concern with this approach on my resume.

  12. PX*

    Some Friday afternoon positivity for you; in the spirit of how Alison sometimes shares good cover letters, while idly browsing LinkedIn today, this introductory piece about the company in a job opening really stood out to me and made me think: this sounds like somewhere I’d like to work.

    So for anyone in HR, here is what worked for me! I’ve taken out the job/company specific bits, but you can probably find the company fairly easily ;)

    They have offices in many parts of the world and seem to be doing a bit of hiring if anyone wants to apply and give us some feedback on if the reality matches their advertising :D

    […]
    Our people are at the centre of who we are. Whatever your background you are welcome. We are looking for talented and dynamic team players who focus on delivering successful outcomes.

    We are a business where three out of our seven leaders are women, over 20 languages are spoken, where some leaders have grey hair and some have purple. Where our sales teams take time out to support local schools and our product teams champion local women back into the workplace. We are a flexible employer and happy to accommodate different working solutions for the right talent.

    […]

    Our benefits stand out (they even include two days a year for you to dedicate to the charitable activity of your choice)

    […]

    “COMPANY” is a founding member of the Tech Talent Charter, committed to increasing the ratio of women and under-represented groups working in technology

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I like that the way it’s written sounds straightforward and not like lip-service diversity. And it’s refreshing to see this kind of thing vs. “We have foosball and beer Fridays! Catered dinners and on-site gym and laundry service mean you’ll never want to leave! Everyone’s a young and hip rockstar ninja because that’s the only thing we want!”

  13. Laurencia*

    Has anyone seen a career counsellor recently? Did you find it useful?
    I’m looking to move on from my current job where I’ve been for years, but due to circumstances can’t really see my next step clearly and don’t know how to untangle myself from my current situation.
    Also, if you don’t mind sharing, what were their hourly rates? I’ve been quoted $250 (in a major city)

    1. Artemesia*

      Pay real attention to their resume. I knew a guy who had been in the career development field for years and was really gifted at helping people — but his own career showed the level of expertise he had; had done HR work and then had worked for a major consulting firm before striking out on his own. I also have known people who hang out a shingle because they can’t find a job and the odds they could help you are about zip.

        1. Anon for This*

          Yes, please, this! The entire C-suite at my current job has been taken in by a ‘leadership coach’ (who also teaches ‘adulting classes’ ugh) whose primary qualification seems to be a dubious certification in ‘executive coaching’.

          Please vet any career coach very carefully, there are a lot of grifters out there.

    2. L Dub*

      If you went to college, a lot of schools have career services available for free for both current students and alumni. YMMV because some are fantastic and some are awful, but it might be worth checking out.

    3. Anon For This*

      I tried two. Both had great reviews online and seemed to have solid credentials (dual masters degrees in counseling and career counseling from reputable universities). To be honest, my experience with both was horrible. I mean I was insulted and given either bad advice or advice that was so obvious, a five-year-old could have told you the same thing. In fact, I was spoken to as though I was about five years old.

      Neither read my resume or the bio I emailed them. They both seemed to think I was about half of my actual age and in my first job after graduate school. They seemed to think I had gone to college and grad school back to back. I do look young for my age, but your client’s info should be a given if you’re charging $100 – $200 per hour. And advertising yourself as a full time, well qualified career counselor. I’ll stop there. It got worse. Yikes.

      A decade before that, I tried a free service offered by my state in conjunction with their community college system. It was supposed to be counseling, but they just had you take the MBTI and then showed you a list of careers for your type.

      I tried career counseling in both college and grad school and it was pretty useless. The grad school advice was to use Twitter for networking. Yeah, that can work, but I think they could have offered something more useful.

      I realized that the main reason career counseling fails is that the people counseling you don’t really know your strengths and the market for what you can do. They’re often just going by what you look like and what you’ve written at the top of your resume. So it’s helpful in that it gives you insights into the first impression you make in that kind of context. But it’s rare to find that person who knows you’re talented and is rooting for you.

      I say look for someone who will get you and see your potential. Someone who will see how intelligent you are, how much fun it is to work with you, etc. That person could be a career counselor, but most often, you’ll find those people by networking in your field or your target field. A mentor. Or more than one.

      But I think it’s different for everyone. I’m sure the traditional career counseling approach works well for some people.

    4. irene adler*

      Can you join a professional organization in your industry? They will have lots of folks with constructive suggestions, tips and thoughtful ideas on ‘the next step’ in your career.
      Cost would probably be about $250 annually to join.

    5. zora*

      As mentioned above, I have heard of very very few career counsellers actually worth the money.

      As an alternative, I would suggest either 1) Finding a friend at your level or a little above in your field who would be willing to sit down with you and help you talk things through, look at your resume, etc. People love being asked to help, you might be surprised how easy it would be to find someone. 2) Just going to a regular therapist, probably a LCSW. They might not be experts in your field, but they can help you talk through the things you already know, help you figure out what questions to ask, and how to design a series of steps to take. Many therapists would be much less than $250 an hour

  14. Teapot Translator*

    I don’t remember on which post, but people recommended listening to game soundtracks to help with concentration at work. I tried Frostpunk and liked it. Can people recommend other soundtracks? Thank you.

    1. Nessun*

      I personally love Nobuo Uematsu, so I enjoy all the Final Fantasy soundtracks (there are TONS – including piano versions and symphonic versions). I also like the XenoSaga soundtracks. My current go-to is Guild Wars 2 (the OST, and the two expansion OSTs for Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire).

      I’ve also sometimes enjoyed just asking YouTube or Spotify for game soundtracks – sometimes the results are games I don’t know, mixed together, and equally great to listen to while working.

    2. Platypus Enthusiast*

      So I have a Pandora station and a Spotify playlist for soundtracks (movie and game), and I also regularly listen to other people’s playlists, so maybe check out those for inspiration. I like the Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim soundtrack, butmy favorite song would be Ezio’s family from assassin’s creed 2 (has some minor vocalization). Also, Lindsey Stirling has a lot of covers of popular game, television, and movie soundtracks, and does a lot of collaboration. I hope this helps!

      1. Chrysanthemum's The Word*

        I was just coming here to say Lindsey Stirling. In a similar vein I would also suggest checking out the cellist Tina Guo. She does some stuff that is more hard rock but also covers a lot of game and movie songs.

        1. Nott the Brave*

          I’d add in the Vitamin String Quartet to this list – awesome string covers of a bunch of songs.

    3. Liane*

      “Fields of Ard Skellig” from The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt game is very relaxing, although depending on what I am doing, there is a short repeated bit that can distract me momentarily, so YMMV. There’s a 1 hour plus track on You Tube.
      My friend who loves the game–I do the novels–says the piece is used during horseback travel interludes.

      1. JanetM*

        Miracle of Sound’s music videos featuring Witcher are delightful, but not conducive to concentration at work. :-)

    4. LilacLily*

      It’s not exactly a game soundtrack, but all Homestuck albums are videogame themed and super fun and funky. My favorite album is Strife!, and if you want something a but more chill, Prospit & Derse is my second favorite.

    5. Brownie*

      I usually hit up streaming sites for anything in the chillhop genre or, for sites like Pandora where I can customize a playlist, any/all of the Assassin’s Creed soundtracks. The latter I like for days when I don’t want vocals since chillhop can often have vocals.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Totally agreed on chillhop and Assassin’s Creed soundtracks. AC is particularly good for writing, according to my students over the years, because it’s pretty dynamic.

    6. DaniCalifornia*

      Halo for sure. If you also search for action movie trailer music a lot of good instrumental stuff comes up that is similar to game soundtracks. That’s pretty much all my husband listens to.

    7. Ada*

      My go-tos are typically Professor Layton, Phoenix Wright, Persona 5, and Zelda. One tip: if you like a particular style of music, see if there’s a cover in that style. A couple of my favorites include a jazz version of Phoenix Wright and an orchestrated version of Link’s Awakening.

      1. Watry*

        Overclocked Remix is good for this! I also used to use the Layton soundtracks for studying or reading. Good stuff.

      2. Nessun*

        I have played lots of Layton, but I’ve never paid much attention to the music! I will have to look it up on its own and have a listen…

    8. Watry*

      The original Spyro trilogy has a pretty great soundtrack, written by the drummer from the Police. Good stuff.

      The Final Fantasy tracks are frequently pretty good, but if you’re using them for concentration you’ll need to remove the ones that were written as songs rather than background music.

    10. Vermonter*

      Pokemon games and Steven Universe background music. (SU is a TV show, but it has a video game-ish soundtrack.)

    11. Purt’s Peas*

      The Surviving Mars soundtrack is great; it’s a game where you do lots of slightly monotonous little tasks, and the soundtrack is honestly a big part of what makes it fun :)

    12. Spencer Hastings*

      I find that strategy or puzzle game soundtracks tend to be fairly unobtrusive and good for thinking to: e.g. Stellaris, Cultist Simulator, Blackguards (battle music), Zero Escape, Ace Attorney (trial/confrontation music).

    13. Hiring needs a selling edge*

      Chrono Trigger
      Persona (any)
      Doom (if you like thrash metal)
      Yoshi’s Island
      Echo the Dolphin

    14. Elizabeth West*

      I like ambient music, especially when working, and Mark Morgan’s Vault Archives music from Fallout 1 and 2 is my go-to. I think it’s on YouTube so if you can stream that, you can listen at work.

    15. YetAnotherUsername*

      There’s a 3 hour YouTube track called something like “video game music concentrating” or similar. It has an ad about every half an hour but it’s really good.

    17. Granger Chase*

      I listen to background music from Animal Crossing, in particular the ones they have categorized as “nighttime” or “rainy weather” tracks. They’re super chill and there’s a little bit of nostalgia in there that helps keep my content while I’m in pure concentration mode.

    19. Black Coffee (aka Paige Turner)*

      If you’re still reading replies to this, I love the band Bit Brigade! I’ve been saving all of these responses for new work music- I’m a coffee roaster and wear headphones most of the day.

  15. 60 Hour Weeks Are Normal, Right?*

    Any tips for staying sane while onboarding an entirely new team?

    Shortly after a departmental restructuring, the team I now lead lost two of its three people. I took over responsibility for an area where I have content knowledge but am not familiar with processes at my particular institution. So I have to learn how some of these things need to be done myself before I can even delegate them. (The remaining team member is an admin.) I’m simultaneously tasked with process improvement and documenting all of these things that previously lived in one person’s head (and who enjoyed having it that way….That’s a whole separate post.).

    It’s a really tough job market where I am, so the people I ended up hiring barely have experience in the field to begin with.

    Short version: I inherited a messy, inefficient department and need to fix it with three people who don’t know what they’re doing either. I have a kind and supportive boss, but she can’t train us on anything, never having done these tasks herself.

    We’re all muddling through it together, but I can’t get anything done because I’m constantly fielding questions and having training sessions.

    Help!

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Yikes.

      If the new staff members are capable enough, I’d turn this team into a “let’s figure it out and document it” MACHINE for the next period of time. When a question comes up, you turn to the process document -maybe a big flow chart of post its on your wall, and say ok, where does that question go? Have we figured that piece out yet? Then figure it out together and have the staff member write the new post it. Soon everyone will go to the wall automatically for the answer, and know that if they can’t find it, they’re going to be asked for some research or thought process to resolve it.

      The magic of this strategy is that each staff member can succeed up to their ability, and then you just have to fill in the gaps, rather than always be The Provider of Answers.

      1. OtterB*

        I like this. I’d been thinking along a slightly different line, but similar in that it makes your new people collaborators rather than further weight on you: have each of your new people pick (or you assign) a couple of areas to develop expertise. They document as far as they can and come to you for help when they need to, with questions as specific as they can make them. So, they don’t as you “How do we do X?” They say, Jane in accounts payable says we need to do these steps for X, but as far as I can tell, we’ve been doing it this other way in the past. Should we follow what Jane says? Putting some of the initiative on them will help clear you a little space to do your own work.

        Plus, can you set yourself some “Do not disturb” hours and say you’ll be happy to field questions outside of those hours but not to interrupt within them unless it’s an emergency?

    2. On Hold*

      I think you need to sit down with your boss and talk through triage, priorities, and short/medium/long-term plans. Specifically, while you are all learning these new processes, you are highly unlikely to make any major improvements, create big efficiencies, anything like that. Documentation is…. maybe.

      So the talking points might be:
      – While we’re all learning, I’m going to set aside x, y, and z long-term goals. Tentatively, I hope to come out of this mode in 6 months (or whatever) and I will keep you updated as that timeline solidifies and I can see what’s realistic. Does that work for you/the company / is there anything I should take into consideration about setting these things aside / etc?
      – How long will it take to dig out of your backlog, once everyone knows what’s going on and is starting to work at a more normal pace? Make sure that’s included in your timeline
      – Is this many people a realistic number of people to be on top of your work (when everyone knows what’s going on), considering that people will always be going on vacation, out sick, etc? Is it realistic to arrive at a point where you have some breathing room, or is this level of staffing going to keep you at triage/red-alert mode forever?
      – Is it realistic to start documenting process now, while people are learning, and go back to clean it up later? If the processes are small and you have a good company wiki, that might be very realistic. If the processes are big or complicated, or you are going to have to develop the information repository process/system as well, that’s maybe less realistic.
      – Once we come out of triage and backlog, here’s my vision for what the group will look like/how we will be handling workflow, and here’s my plan for x, y, and z long-term goals
      – What kind of support do you need/want from your boss? Do you like talking things over/bouncing ideas off, or do you want to be left alone to suffer through? Ask for what you need
      – If you haven’t already, talk to your team about the efficiency stuff – “hey team, we’re all muddling through and learning. Sometimes, that’s the best place to be in for updating processes, because you don’t have the ‘but that’s how we’ve always done it’ mindset. So if you see something that you’d like to do differently, please bring it to me/the group and we’ll explore if that makes sense”

      Good luck!

      1. 60 Hour Weeks Are Normal, Right?*

        Wow, this is all fantastic advice, thank you! I was feeling totally defeated by the whole thing, but you’ve all given me some really concrete next steps. (I especially like the idea of “office hours.”)

        And this weekend I’m going to write up an outline for a conversation with my boss, based on those questions, so that I can potentially offload a few things, or at least push them to Q3.

        Again, thank you!

  16. Amber Rose*

    It’s moving day. Our department is swapping spaces with another department, resulting in mass chaos and confusion. My space has shrunk again. This move sucks. Everyone hates it. It makes sense in some ways, our department is bigger than theirs, but ugggggh. I liked my old desk and my old cube. I hate all these changes, they suck. D:

    Anyways. There’s a shelf directly over my monitor that’s like a roof, and now everything is super dark. Does anyone have any ideas for lighting solutions, with the understanding that I have nowhere to plug anything in?

    1. NotaPirate*

      My closet lacked any lights and I got little battery powered ones that stick on the wall and press/touch to turn on. USB powered lamps are increasingly cool these days too, I’ve seen some terrarium lamp combos.

      1. Emily S.*

        I use little battery-op touch lights under my kitchen cabinets. Mine are made by GE, and I bought them from Target. They work very well.

    3. Purple*

      IKEA has some under cabinet lighting that is battery powered.

      I have rechargeable amazon batteries that seem to work pretty well.

    4. epi*

      You can get stick-on LED lights for under cabinets and counters. I have a bunch in my kitchen which has the same problem– all cabinets are oriented in a way that blocks light when I want to be in there.

      I’d recommend getting reading reviews before you decide, because the battery life on these can vary. Either way, definitely get rechargeable batteries and a charger if you expect to have the light on all day, every day.

      1. Artemesia*

        I got some stick on lights for a book case and the battery life was zilch. If possible see about something that might run off your computer or at least has rechargeable batteries and reviews that suggests some longevity.

    6. Not A Manager*

      I’ve gotten packs of battery powered lights and used those. Depending on the design, another option is a camping lantern.

    8. NW Mossy*

      Undermounted LED strip lights with a battery pack sound like a good solution! I’ve put these up in my home underneath my kitchen cabinets to give better task lighting, and they’re great.

      We got ours from Environmental Lights – they mostly do commercial work, but will sell to individuals as well.

    9. Parenthetically*

      If you have a spare USB, there are loads of good task lights at all price ranges that plug into a USB.

    10. Mockingjay*

      There are light bars made to install under cubicle shelves, usually florescent or LED. Look in an office supply catalog or ask your Facilities manager. They should be able to get some.

    12. i forget the name i usually use*

      A happy light! People use them for SAD, but I think they’d also make great ambient lighting for a dark office space.

  17. Demotivated by office admin*

    Our admin sends an all-staff email each morning with the basics of what’s going on that day – who’s on vacation, working remote, what events are that day or coming up, that sort of stuff. He also includes lighthearted stuff like memes or “it’s national XYZ day!”
    When it’s not a whatever holiday (about half the time), the image is “I hate Mondays” or “why isn’t it Friday yet” kind of stuff.
    I get it, everyone loves weekends, but it’s kind of demoralizing to have that “working for the weekend” mentality greet you every day.
    Just ranting, I guess. TGIF!

    1. Laurencia*

      That would bring me down to even though I realize it’s silly. Maybe you could ask him to do less of those and more animal pics or whatever?

    2. 1234*

      I don’t see that as demoralizing since the whole tone is light-hearted.

      Would it make more sense for him to send this email once or twice a week? Are you able to make a suggestion to him that maybe he can come up with an image of something else except “I hate Mondays” etc?

    3. All Reports, All the Time*

      That would bug me too. It’s a small thing, but I can imagine a cumulative effect over time. And as a frequent sufferer of “The Sundays,” I have personally never found that stuff funny. It just makes me more anxious. (Sign of needing a new job, I know.)

    4. Meredith*

      Yeah, today is our first non-summer Friday at work since Memorial Day. Of course, people have been complaining all week about how awful today will be. We’re here a whole extra two hours…

      I’ve just been trying to be positive. “Oh, well, what with the holiday on Monday I certainly have enough to do to fill a whole day!” or “I’m sure today will fly by, since it’s Friday and all.” Maybe try, “Looking forward to a fresh week!” or “Tuesdays are my favorite day because of x and y.”

    5. Not A Manager*

      I misread your title and thought it said “demoted by office admin.” I was imagining all kinds of scenarios.

    6. Aggretsuko*

      I’m just amazed the admin is *allowed* to send something out publicly that acknowledges that work isn’t awesome.

      There are National Whatever Holidays for every single day of the year (I have a calendar of them), so he could just send those daily instead.

      1. Orange You Glad*

        Agreed with this! I would send them a message like, “I love when you include what National Whatever Holiday it is! I look forward to when you share them because it’s always different and I enjoy it so much more than those depressing “I hate Monday’s” memes! I found this [link to calendar or website that lists them] that you could use to look up what holiday it is every day! Thank you for the effort you put into the daily updates – I appreciate you!”

        (Yes, it’s *very* bubbly and way too many exclamation marks but this is genuinely how I would phrase it because this is my personality. Tone it down to match yours.)

    7. Mazzy*

      Haha, I realized once I was rude to someone I see in the elevator, he always makes these comments to me and I coldly replied “I actually like my job so I don’t care.” Woops! Sounded ruder then I meant it, but, I cobbled together a schedule that is as interesting as adult life is going to get on top of my job I like, so I’m not going to complain about it every day!

    9. Garland Not Andrews*

      Perhaps you can look up some positive little images with sunny messages and send him a bunch. I really understand your feelings, I once had a coworker who was always saying “Can I go home yet?” and when she left, the atmosphere become much much more positive.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I used to say this all the time when I hated my job. Apologies to any coworkers who had to deal with that, lol.

    11. On Hold*

      See if he’d be willing to sub in cute animals or something? My old team got a daily email from another department and she always wrapped it up with a cute animal. Sometimes that was the highlight of my evening.

    12. Gumby*

      I get it. Even when you are joking, “work is a horrible imposition on life” can be an annoying thing to face every day. Maybe you are trying to stay positive and don’t want unnecessary negativity in your life. Maybe you actually don’t mind your job, or actively like it. Maybe this weekend you are required to go to a training session for a volunteer position you have been doing for more than a decade which is, really, not that difficult to start with… (At least they feed us, and it’s generally pretty tasty.) (But honestly? 9 a.m.? On a weekend?)

      There are all sorts of these things that are kind of socially accepted – like that school is a pain. This is why when I ask kids about starting the new school year I never do it in a “aren’t you so sad that you must go back to the drudgery of the classroom” way. It’s always, “how exciting, you are starting a new grade! What are you looking forward to this year?” There is no need to tell kids that they should hate school. If they are going to, they will probably come to that conclusion themselves. (Personally, I loved it.)

      If he must demotivate, perhaps he could use official Demotivators? Those tend to be more funny than depressing.

    13. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are they Grumpy cat memes at least? But yeah, I don’t do the negativity sort of thing, even though it’s meant to be lighthearted, it’s bad vibes towards so many.

      Have you ever even said anything in passing though? Yeah it may take some wind out of those sails of him but it’s fair to say “Man, that meme is a downer, could you rethink the images you use?” People don’t always know it’s “Not a good look” until someone quietly whispers it to them.

  18. ThatGirl*

    So, I’ve been in a new position for about six weeks; I’ve worked at this company for two years. I consider myself pretty easy going and easy to get along with, I don’t expect everyone to love me but I try to be pleasant and kind and professional. I’m also 38 years old and have plenty of professional experience.

    Which is to say that I am totally befuddled by how to answer my new manager when, at our 1-on-1 check-ins, she asks “are you getting along with everyone?” I want to say “you know, this isn’t kindergarten” – there are no conflicts she could have observed, I haven’t made snarky remarks or heard anyone badmouthing me, and I know how to act professional with people even if I’m not a huge fan of their personality. So far I’ve just said “yeah, everyone’s been great, no problems!” but is there a way I can answer to like… get her to stop asking?

    1. INeedANap*

      I suspect this is less about you and more about a problem person on the team that you haven’t had to deal with yet.

      It sounds to me like she’s deliberately creating an opening for you to let her know if anyone (and I’d bet there’s one specific person she’s concerned about) is treating you less than professionally; sometimes it can be intimidating as a new person to the team to “make waves” by complaining about a long-standing team member and my guess is that she’s trying to counteract that.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Funny you say that. I have an inkling that she has some sort of problem with one of our team members, but I think that’s a *her* problem – said coworker is very pleasant to me and so far I like them a lot, but I know the two of them have butted heads a bit. Also I prefer to deal with conflicts myself if possible, and not go “tell on” someone (there are certainly instances where getting a manger involved is warranted, but it’s not my first instinct).

        1. Frankie*

          I’d watch, observe, keep being positive, and file this away for the future. Sometimes those situations look really different after 3 months on the job. Not to say you don’t have a handle on what’s going on, or that your default approach (it’s not kindergarten! utilize direct communication! we’re grown ups!) isn’t the right tack to be taking.

          It’s possible your boss is looking for fodder for a conflict. Or also possible, though maybe less likely, that there are legit issues with this coworker, and she’s trying to give you the space to bring it to her if you need it down the road.

        2. Mockingjay*

          Think of it this way: you have a proactive manager who keeps tabs on team relationships. It’s great that you prefer to deal with coworkers yourself (how much of Alison’s advice is exactly that!), but having a manager open to resolving situations in which more leverage is needed is a plus. I would say, “everything’s good, but I will certainly come to you if I need help – thanks!”

    2. Former Usher*

      No advice to offer, but at my previous employer, my manager would end every group meeting by asking us to let him know if we had any conflicts with anyone. It was so weird. He was new to management, and I wondered if his only management training consisted of a how to manage conflict course and that he wanted to try out his new skills.

    3. gbca*

      Maybe ask her in a friendly tone, “you’ve asked me that a few times – are there any concerns in that area?” I would think that should get her to either tell you what’s behind the question, or realize it’s an odd question that she should stop asking if it’s just a filler question.

    4. PantaloonsOnFire*

      “You’ve asked me several times about whether I’m getting along well with everyone, and it’s making me wonder if you have a specific concern or reason for asking. Is there anything I should know about this team to avoid having a pre-existing workplace drama catch me unexpectedly?”

      1. Mazzy*

        Yes to this. I can imagine beating around the bush because I’m afraid to admit I notice them IMing instead of talking to people and don’t say hello or goodbye

        1. ThatGirl*

          I say hi and have brief but friendly chats with my team regularly. I even brought cookies once so far! The one other thing that did occur to me was that I generally eat lunch alone, but that’s both a holdover from my last position and a mild preference – it gives me a chance for a little solitude. My teammates have given me a standing invitation to join them, and I intend to do so occasionally, but I don’t want to spend money on eating out every day.

    5. LKW*

      It could also be her way of phrasing “is everyone taking the time to help you acclimate and get you up to speed?”

    6. Federal Middle Manager*

      This. If I asked someone this it would be similar to “Is everyone providing you with the feedback and resources you need?” If someone is slow to respond to emails or refers you to outdated materials, etc. this would be the chance to raise that.

    7. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Did you replace someone who left? It could be that a previous employee cited personal conflicts, a toxic work environment, or sexual harassment… during their exit interview, and the boss is trying to determine the validity of it. Or she is just really invested in everyone on her team being one big happy family. You might not be able to get her to stop and just have to keep answering as you have — sort of like a superficial social exchange or “how are you?” “fine, thank you.”

    8. OhBehave*

      You’ve sensed that there is someone your mgr is watching so ask the next time you’re questioned. Others have suggested the same. Let your manager know how you plan to handle conflict should it arise. “You’ve asked me many times if I’m getting along with everyone. Please let me know if I need to be aware of possible issues. I do prefer to handle personnel issues myself and escalate if needed.” Mgr may also be watching/questioning in order to find out if the issue was with previous boss or this particular employee.

    9. gsa*

      New manager, “are you getting along with everyone?”

      You, “As far as I know, have you heard otherwise?”.

      It sounds like an ice breaker/conversation starter… Don’t let it be a conversation stopper.

  19. Lovecraft Beauty*

    Recap: I left a job I really loved but was underpaid to move out of state for a new role; the transition has been really hard. It’s been a month.

    I don’t know how to tell my boss I’m struggling, or what support to ask for. I’m the only woman on the team in a male-dominated industry, which makes asking for help extra fraught; I am extremely underwhelmed by the technical landscape of the work, and disappointed by that, but I worry about saying that as the new person and getting a reputation as a Negative Nancy.

    (Adapting to the new city is going okay. Not great but okay. I’ve been going out with friends, I’m cooking foods I love, I have a therapist.)

    1. cmcinnyc*

      Can you be specific? It sounds like the technical aspect of the job is well within your skillset, but what is the part that’s a struggle?

      1. Lovecraft Beauty*

        There’s a lot of technical debt, including in the development process as well as the code, and it feels like a giant thankless task that I was not expecting; I knew they had some technical debt, everywhere does, but I didn’t know it was this bad. And there’s no one who knows the existing codebase and very little documentation, so I have to figure it out as I go, and balancing “well, I’m sure they had a reason for making the decisions they did, don’t be judgey just because it’s not immediately apparent” and “this is bad code that should never have made it to production” is taking a toll. I’m also pretty low on resilience because of a recent family medical emergency and the move from my beloved hometown, so I’m sure that’s playing into it.

        1. cmcinnyc*

          Oh yuck. OK. Yeah, your boss probably knows this and doesn’t want to hear about it except to hear that it has been solved. My best advice is to focus on making your non-work life feel good and make sure you’re getting support around the family stuff, especially if you’re a caregiver. Feeling better and more supported outside the office will at least give you more energy and positive stuff in your day. By then you’ll be a few more months into the job and maybe in a better head to assess the situation and figure out if there’s some support you can reasonably ask for at that point.

        2. Engineer Girl*

          And there’s no one who knows the existing codebase and very little documentation, so I have to figure it out as I go, and balancing “well, I’m sure they had a reason for making the decisions they did, don’t be judgey just because it’s not immediately apparent”

          This is exceedingly normal in my experience. Sorry. It’s frustrating.

        3. EinJungerLudendorff*

          Yeah, that’s a hard situation to have to deal with.
          I have no advice, but every sympathy.

    2. sportslady*

      Following along on this one, because I’m struggling with the same thing. I miss my old co-workers, and I’m not feeling like I’m gelling with the team here. All the feedback I’ve gotten has been great, my boss and up are very happy, but bleh. I’m ALSO the only woman on my team, and almost always the only woman in the room, and it’s exhausting to deal with.

      No advice, obviously, but maybe it helps to know there’s someone else in your boat!

      1. Lovecraft Beauty*

        Oh my god I’m so grateful to hear this, and I’m so sorry you’re feeling this too. It sucks.

      2. LilacLily*

        Oh man I feel your pain. I’m also the only woman in a team of seven people locally and about 20+ people nation-wide. I had a female coworker who worked with us but in another department and she was my sanity lifeline, and then last month they transferred her to another office. It’s back to having lunch by myself I guess. Bluh.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      It’s not clear to me what you’re struggling with at work. I think you’re right that saying you’re underwhelmed by the technical landscape of the work is probably not a great foot to start off on. Do you have coworkers you can talk to? Do most people seem to be happy and thriving in their roles, or are there office-culture issues?

      1. Lovecraft Beauty*

        Other people seem pretty happy! We’re pretty isolated in terms of subject-matter expertise, I don’t think there’s anyone else really working on the same stuff I’m working on, so it’s hard to get a parallax view on the technical debt I mentioned above. And everyone has been …cordial but not friendly, I guess? Polite, but all my cheerful “want to get coffee and chat?” invitations have been turned down.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          Yeah, unfortunately that doesn’t seem like things your boss would be able to provide support on.

          In terms of the technical debt, this is not my area of expertise, but it seems like you might be able to identify some of the “no one has knowledge of the codebase/figure it out as you go along” issues that are really tripping you up and identify asks for your boss around them. Whether its partnering you with people with a bit more expertise on them, or having your boss as a thought partner to help you figure out how to handle the issues.

    4. Autumnheart*

      Can you elaborate more on what you mean by “extremely underwhelmed by the technical landscape of the work”? Is it too easy for you, not what you expected, or do you find yourself dealing with things like “They expect us to work miracles with 10-year-old hardware and software”, or what?

      1. Lovecraft Beauty*

        There’s a lot more technical debt that I expected, and the development process is really out of date.

    5. Clementine*

      As you know, the codebase and lack of docs are not going to improve. The job will be more of the same, along with antiquated processes and technology from what you have said.

      With that being the case, the only solution I see is to start focusing on moving on. It doesn’t sound like you are in an emergency situation, so start carefully looking for the next place that will not have these particular problems. This is one type of experience that can still be useful, but not something you likely want to do for very long if you want to keep current.

  20. A. Ham*

    As we head into fall/winter, a time when I will inevitably wear skirts and dresses less often, I am looking to up my work pants game.
    I work in a fairly casual office. The party line is “look presentable” but no need to be super business-y unless there is some sort of important meeting off site or something. Jeans and a nice top is very common uniform around here- and what I will normally wear (again, when not wearing skirts). But… I’ve got to admit, I’m getting a little sick of wearing jeans all the time. Not saying I will never wear them again, but I’d like some options to switch it up. What are your favorite pair of work pants?

    1. Nowhereland*

      If you live in the US, you could look at Old Navy’s Pixie Pants, Banana Republic’s Sloan pants, or Express’s Editor/Columnist pants.

      1. londonedit*

        I am not in the US and am therefore sad that I can’t have special Editor trousers seeing as that’s what I do.

        On a slightly more helpful note, I really like Uniqlo’s ‘jeggings trousers’ – really comfortable and slightly smarter than jeans.

          1. the_scientist*

            A warning re: the uniqlo leggings pants: If you have quads, these will definitely look more like leggings and less like pants. They are very comfy but definitely not work appropriate for me. However their colour Ez-Jeans (basically jeans with an elastic in the back of the waistband) are a good alternative- they have just that little bit more structure.

          2. Karo*

            I wear jeggings in various colors literally every day. They’re skinny jeans, but with a little extra give for comfort. I adore them. I also think they look relatively nice – definitely more like dressy jeans than sitting around the house jeans.

        2. epi*

          I also like the leggings pants and wear them to work often (in academia). They look like skinny jeans but IME are much cooler so the cropped ones are actually my go-to throughout the summer. I have gotten compliments on them from multiple people who did not realize they were leggings.

          Uniqlo has a lot of other good pants too. I would suggest looking at what I think they are calling “smart pants” now too. They have an imitation fly and pull on like leggings but are not tight and are made of normal pants fabric. I didn’t like where the waistband fell on me– I think it matters more when there is elastic involved– but they are great. I’d own a bunch if they happened to fit me.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I have a few of the smart pants I snagged on the (dirt) cheap from thredUP, and they do look like really tailored dress pants. The waistband is a little weird, but a lot of my shirts are long so no one will notice.

      2. Former staffer*

        Was coming to echo the Old Navy Pixie Pants. I’m obsessed with them right now- give me some in every color/print please!

      3. M. Albertine*

        I LIVE in Express’s Editor pants. They are so comfy I don’t even take them off when I get home from work.

    2. CTT*

      Old Navy has good work pants! I particularly love the patterned ones because I am a sucker for a patterned pant, but they have solid colors as well. They’re a nice alternative to jeans that aren’t a hard turn into suit pants.

      1. tcro*

        Everlane has some great options. If your office is fairly casual, you could do their “easy chino” option… more put together than jeans, but not as dressy as you’d usually think for “work pants”.

        1. Mainely Professional*

          OMG Everlane for the win. I am so sick of major brands selling us women TRASH that doesn’t last a season. I just bought one of their bras and it’s great.

        2. Keanu Reeves's Patchy Beard*

          I actually was really disappointed with a pair of their work pants. I got them in navy and they are not colorfast. I washed them about 3 times and there are faded streaks.

        3. ThatMarketingChick*

          I’ve been really disappointed with Everlane. I bought two pairs of their “work pants” and had one pair split from the crotch down the inseam. On both sides. While I was driving. To work. I can’t bring myself to wear the other pair out of sheer terror at the thought of seeing my once-appropriate work pants morphing into assless chaps.

    3. Sister Michael, Black Belt*

      I have many pairs of NY&Co’s 7th Avenue pants, comes in lots of colors, patterns, and lengths.

      1. sacados*

        I know this is an anti-jeans post but NY&Co’s jeans are absolutely the most comfortable ones I have ever found.
        Though their sizing can be a bit strange, I am a full size smaller in their “curvy boyfriend” jeans than in any of the other cuts.

    4. Ayla K*

      Black skinny jeans have become a good uniform swap-in for me! I’m team denim, all the way, and sometimes just swapping the color can be great. I also picked up a pair of purple jeans last fall and they’re great with boots and a grey sweater.

      I also got some stretchy slacks that, no joke, feel like leggings, but they look super professional.

      1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        Totally agree with swapping the color of your jeans. I’ve got a pair in purple and a pair in red, in addition to the conventional indigo and black. Grey jeans would be a nice choice if you want something more conservative but still different from the usual.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Colored jeans, definitely, I have multiple pairs in various grays, black, and shades of blue.

        Also cordoroys, I’ve found some styles that are basically pull-on cords and they’re very comfy.

    6. BeeGee*

      I really like the dressier leggings/tights, I have two pairs from Tommy Hilfiger and I know J. Crew has a version of them. Think a thicker leggings like horse riding pants, with a button and zipper closure like normal pants. They are really comfy, and look classy when paired with some nicer boots. And just because it’s winter doesn’t mean you have to give up on skirts or dresses! Get a nice wool/felt skirt and a sweater dress, and pair them with fleece tights/leggings underneath. I also bought wedge booties from UGG that have a nice plain, black leather exterior but fuzzy wool interior which are a godsend for my poor cold toes in the middle of winter.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup, I also still rock dresses and skirts in the winter. I make sure they’re wool like you said and pair them with fleece lined tights and calf or knee-high boots (sometimes ankle booties if it’s not too cold).

        Now that I work from home full time, I’m glad I’ll still be able to rock shorts during the winter as well!

    7. Mainely Professional*

      For what it’s worth, I live in a very cold place and I wear a lot of skirts and dresses in the fall and winter. I like to layer, and for whatever reason I tend to feel warmer overall in a dress, and I like dresses because it’s easier than matching separates. I can layer a bodysuit under or cardigans over. It is sometimes harder to find fashionable and affordable warm choices, but thrifting is usually a good option. Wool, flannel, corduroy cold weather dresses from J. Crew or Loft are pretty abundant in my thrift shops locally. Fleece tights from Target if it’s brutal out.

      1. Sled dog mama*

        I am the same. I tend to wear my skirts year round but more in the winter as I like having my legs fully covered.

        1. SarahKay*

          Same here. I find a needlecord (corduroy in the US) skirt with some nice woolly tights is far warmer than trousers.
          Not only that, I walk to work and if it’s raining then jeans are a shockingly bad idea as they take forever to dry and spend the whole drying time sucking heat out of my legs. Even trousers (pants) aren’t ideal; I’d much rather wear a knee-length skirt and a pair of 60 or 100 denier tights in a man-made fibre, with a knee-length coat over the top. The skirt says dry (because coat) and the tights will dry in about a minute (because man-made fibres) – change my shoes and my dry, warm legs and I are good to go for the day.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yes! That’s the one thing I’m truly grateful for now that I won’t have to deal with walking to work in the snow anymore (I’m remote from home) – not having wet pants by the time I get to work. Seriously, it’s the most disgusting feeling to have cold, wet pants stuck to your legs all morning. That always used to put me in a foul mood, lol. That’s why I, too, tried to live in sweater dresses and wool skirts in the winter with tights.

      2. sacados*

        Agreed, I wear tights with skirts and dresses pretty much year round, in fact it’s one of my favorite kinds of fall outfits.
        @A. Ham > it can be a bit on the spendy side, but eshakti can also be a nice resource, they allow you to customize everything like sleeve or skirt length so you can get a lot of nice warmer long-sleeved dresses.

      3. A. Ham*

        oh I do still wear them in the winter- just not quite as often. It’s not so much that I don’t want to wear them (I have quite a few cute/cozy winter-appropriate dresses) It’s really just tights that I hate. And on especially cold, dark mornings, the thought of wrestling with tights just makes me more tired. haha

        1. Mainely Professional*

          Lol, I get it. I think corduroy pants are a good option for a casual office, especially since there are some nice “jeans” cut styles out there, not the wide wale pleats at the waistband stuff of yore.

    8. TY*

      I love the Loft work pants in the Marisa fit. They don’t hug my curve and look polished after multiple pairs, without needing ironing!

      1. TY*

        They do have the Julie fit if you like to highlight your curves, and Loft clothes seem perpetually on sale, so I usually find them for cheap.

    9. Professional Pup*

      I recently bought 2 pairs of American Giant’s Kick Crop pants and WOW are they comfortable. I’m very petite so that version of their pants is the only one that would work for my height off the rack, but they have a typical skinny one and a straight leg, too. I absolutely *hate* the feeling of a waistband constricting me while I sit (and as I type this, I’m being annoyed by the jeans I’m wearing for casual Friday), so the American Giant pants are perfect. The fabric is a nice thick weight without feeling heavy or tight, and they look extremely polished..but they’re secretly soft and stretchy and comfortable! The waistband tailoring is nice enough that you can tuck a blouse in (a la Tan France from Queer Eye) without it looking weird.

    10. Jellyfish*

      I have four matching pairs of casual pants from Christopher & Banks – black, brown, grey, and khaki. They’re cotton, so they feel and fit more like jeans than most business slacks do. I like them. However, I also add lined leggings to my dresses and skirts so I can keep wearing those during the winter too.

    11. LilacLily*

      I’ve heard that Betabrand’s Dress Pant Yoga Pants are super comfy, and they have a bunch of colors and styles! I saved their online store address for when I’m able to afford them. If there’s something I love is plain, high rise pants that aren’t tight in the knee.

    12. NewReadingGlasses*

      I am currently wearing Prana Halle pants that I bought at REI. They are technically cargo pants, but they look OK for work, kind of like chinos. I have them in Black and Tan. I’ve had these pairs about a year and they are holding up well.

    13. Goldfinch*

      If you layer, I really like the Dana Buchman pull-on pants from Kohls. They have enough thigh and hip room that I can wear fleece tights underneath when it’s miserably cold out, but they aren’t so big that I look like a marshmallow.

    14. Catsaber*

      Uniqlo has a lot of unique pant options, just be aware the sizing is not consistent. For me, the skinny/slim styles are REALLY SKINNY and then the roomier styles are REALLY ROOMY. Be sure to read the garment measurements!

      Also, something that helped me with not feeling so boring with my jeans was not to change the pants, but change the shoes. I got a few pairs of really cool shoes that helped me mix up my jeans/nice top uniform. And it doesn’t have to be really expensive – I tend to shop at DSW, so that’s my level. One example – I got a pair of black glitter Doc Martens. They make any outfit look super cool. I have gotten tons of compliments on them, including from top-level directors.

    15. Llama Wrangler*

      Ditto the Loft Marisa Pants, thought keep in mind they also have some pretty variable fits in the different styles of the pants. And I also like the Uniqlo options, but definitely agree about their variable sizing. I range anywhere from an XS to a L/XL depending on style and material.

    16. Combinatorialist*

      I really like colored jeans. I have a pair of black ones that make me feel slightly dangerous (I’m not at all) that I wear on days with meetings with a problematic project lead. I have some more fun colors as well. Obviously doesn’t help if it is the feel of denim that you are tired of, but it lets me mix it up some while staying at about the same level of formality

    17. HalloweenCat*

      To address the pants part, I have just discovered Sanctuary’s Pull On Ponte Pants at Nordstrom Rack. They’re like a thick legging and they have fake pocket detail to look more like pants. They have them in basic black as well as a bunch of fun fall plaids, cheetah print, and camo. They’re very comfortable.
      And as someone who also likes to wear skirts and dresses year-round, invest in a couple of pairs of good quality fleece-lined tights.

    18. Muriel Heslop*

      Wide leg cropped pants from J Crew. They are part of the 365 collection. I wear both pairs I own once a week. Super comfortable! I have a black wide leg pair from Banana that I wear a lot, too. Their work pants are pretty durable.

    19. Imprudence*

      (in the UK) boden richmond trousers. Smarter than jeans, not as smart as dry-clean only suit trousers.

    20. Pamplemeow*

      To change it up a little I get what are essentially jeans in different fabrics – sateen, corduroy, etc. Loft usually has cute sateen pants for fall. Old Navy has some too I think.

    21. lnelson in Tysons*

      Again if you are in the US, Kohls has pants, not jeans, which are casual, but can be slightly dressier or more casual depending on the top and shoes.
      I also like them because several brands are a cotton mix, which I prefer over the purely synthex mixes.

    22. A. Ham*

      Thank you everyone for all of the amazing suggestions! I am looking forward to doing some shopping! :-)

    23. Clarissa*

      Midi and maxi skirts and dresses are in. More comfortable (for me) than jeans or pants. You can wear tights, leggings, vests and such underneath when it’s cold.

  21. LizB*

    My last day at this job is a week from today, and I start the next job a week from Monday. It’s so close I can taste it…. just gotta wrap up a few things and make sure all the right documentation is left for the next person.

  22. Kramerica Industries*

    I’ve just finished my PhD and am looking to get an industry job outside of academia. I recently got an offer, but the company made it clear that it was an entry level job and there would be little space to add my personal stamp on current processes. From other interviews I’ve gotten, most interviewers are concerned that I’ve never worked in industry. So, while this opportunity is a foot in the door, I’m not sure if I’m settling for too little by taking a job that would normally go to an undergraduate. I’d also be moving to a new city for mediocre pay, but my field is niche so I’m not sure when there will be another (or even a better) opportunity.

    1. House Tyrell*

      I recommend you investigate the ability to move up in this company- is there room for growth or are the upper level managers never planning on leaving so you’ll be stuck lower in the totem pole for awhile. You’ll also want to try and figure out what the salary band is and if you have room for raises for awhile or if you’re close to the top already in the offer, plus what bonuses and benefits are available. Those things may make taking this job worth it for now if you have opportunity for growth, raises, and good benefits.

      To be completely honest, it will be very difficult to find great jobs at the start with a PhD but little practical experience. You’re considered over-educated and under-experienced. One of my friends has a PhD in microbiology and realized he didn’t want to work in academia or research when he was doing his dissertation and now he’s been bartending for over a year because he experienced the same problems you did- concern that he hadn’t been actually working in the industry and that his high level of education in one niche field meant he was unable to work on broader topics. Employers are also worried that you’ll leave quickly if you don’t find the work exciting and get a better offer somewhere else so they’d rather make an offer to someone they think is more likely to stay.

    2. Psyche*

      Do you know someone who transitioned from academia to industry in your field? They would probably be able to tell you if taking the job would be a good idea. If not, you could try looking for an internship or a postdoc position in industry so that you can get some experience in industry and apply again to the jobs you really want.

    3. Frankie*

      Depends on your field, but sometimes the entry level is all you can get until you’ve “proved yourself” in industry/corporate for a couple of years. Tough to say without knowing more, but I definitely had to go through this after graduating with an MA. Most PhDs just aren’t marketable in the way you’d expect them to be.

      I’ve also always had the experience that even very entry-level, inflexible jobs still offered opportunities to learn, grow, and find your niche. You don’t need a plum job right away to be gaining valuable experience.

    4. E*

      Where I work we have a lot of postdocs who go into industry. I think many of them take these postdocs because they provide a lot of industry networking experience and they are definitely more like being in a job than being a grad student. Maybe finding a postdoc and networking during that time is the way to get there?

    5. arcya*

      I’m an industry postdoc! My company typically has 6-7 “postdoctoral fellows” working on research projects relevant to the company, but with the intent to publish (we are in biotech). I don’t know your field specifically obviously, but I would be wary of this position. While it’s super important to be able to say you’ve been in industry for X years on a CV, your role in this position might hold you back if you don’t get much training about internal decision making / industry standards. I would try to find out more about the role – even if you don’t get to move up in this company, what kind of training and experience might they offer? Is there something unique you might be able to learn there?

      If you decide not to take it, is there academic postdoc work you can do? One option might be to do an academic postdoc with an aim towards industry – ie collaborating with companies in your field. This will help you gain contacts and experience even if it’s not specifically “industry experience”.

      Good luck!

    6. YetAnotherUsername*

      I agree you should take it. After a year 9r two you can use the experience plus PhD to get a better job.

      Unfortunately until you have experience even someone with a PhD is an unproven risk because industry is sooo different to academia.

      (source – I have a PhD and 11 years of industry experience).

      Trust me as you move up your PhD will still stand to you long term, but you do have to prove yourself first.

    7. Roza*

      I’d take it. As many others have noted, getting your first job outside of academia is hard — you really do need to prove yourself, people sometimes have a lot of doubts about whether PhDs can thrive in industry. There’s also a genuine learning curve in figuring out workplace culture in your industry. I’m a PhD who went into industry with many friends who did the same, and the only exception I’ve seen to needing to start at or close to entry level is a situation like a Llama Grooming startup and the PhDs dissertation was in new approaches to cloud-based llama grooming, and they’re hired as a product/subject matter expert type person.

      That said, once you get over the initial hurdle, you’ll likely move up more quickly than people without the PhD. That’s been the case for me and many others I’ve known, and it’s definitely worth making sure your employer bases promotions on contributions, not just seniority.

    8. Clever Name*

      I agree with the others on taking the position. And please try to not act overtly “I have a PhD and I’m working a job that would normally go to an undergraduate” when you start your new job. I’m a scientist working in industry, and I participate in the hiring process. I evaluate resumes and participate in interviews. I know that you have a lot of education under your belt, and a PhD is definitely an impressive accomplishment (I have a MS and it’s one of my proudest accomplishments for sure!), but no matter what degree you have, no work experience in the industry = entry level. If you act like you are above the job you were hired to do, you will have a tough go at things.

    9. Job Hunter*

      I was encouraged to aim as high as I can by a friend (with a PhD) in industry…I think it depends on your situation.

  23. AnotherCorporateStooge*

    TLDR; benefits good, pay average, job not challenging, frustrated enough to consider leaving for new career

    I would be nervous to change jobs, especially because where I currently work the benefits and the culture are great — the pay is not too bad, certainly average, but, again, the benefits are great, but my issue is the work I do is not challenging and I find it hard to focus because it’s in a field I have no interest in. Any advice?

    To add: I work in marketing and research, I like the research, but the company is laden with too many inefficiencies and redundancy — I was considering going back to school for law or a science field (astrophysics/chemistry) but thought to take up something new altogether like management consulting.

    I am basically a glorified admin with a snazzy title. I throw parties and attend conferences where I bridge personal relationships between my team members and other companies. My job is essentially a big band-aid for inefficiencies since we are so decentralized — every group operates as its own mini company. Just this morning I was joking around with someone from a client-facing role who teasfully said all I do is, “puts papers in files and organizes stuff and makes us socialize then charges it to the team’s overhead.” It was funny… but TRUE. I laughed, but I can do so much more.
    reposting for some additional/new insights

    1. Meredith*

      Are there big projects you can take on to address those inefficiencies? Are there other tasks or positions in the company you think would be more interesting that you could learn about or lend skills to? Can you potentially look into project management/get a PMP, which with your current experience could land you a job in project management or consulting?

    2. Alex*

      I’m kind of in the same boat. I’ve tried expanding my role to take on some more advanced work, but it is like pulling teeth.

      Most days I’m quite literally bored to tears. But my pension is great.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Go for it, make the change.

      Right now you are frustrated, in ten years you will be crushed. This type of thing has a knack of draining a soul right out of a person.

      Look at it from this perspective: It’s a basic human need, right up there with food and water, to make a meaningful contribution in this world. It’s probably a bad plan to go too long feeling the way you do. What you are feeling now will only get bigger, this is reasonable to assume. Meanwhile, other people are in job where they are developing more marketable skills. And you are learning how to make dysfunction work well.

      To me, good benefits and average pay is a shell game. It looks like they are giving you something but the benefit is probably either low cost to them or something they have figured you won’t use. Personally, I want coins in my pocket.

      Many places have good things about them. But we have to check to figure out if those good things are actually elevating our quality of life. It’s okay to insist on more.

  24. Can I hear a Wahoo?*

    Project Management strategies, tips, tricks, and templates. Please share! In my new position I am managing multiple projects and events of varying sizes, timelines, and priorities, and things are falling by the wayside. How do you all keep track of everything? How do you write a project plan for something you’ve never done before that takes place months in the future with both daily and long term tasks?

    1. AnotherCorporateStooge*

      would really like to know if anyone has anything to offer to this question because I am in the same boat.

    2. The Curator*

      I asked exactly the same question about a year ago.
      This book was the most helpful to me.
      Practical Project Management for Agile Nonprofits: Approaches and Templates to Help You Manage with Limited Resources Paperback – June 24, 2013
      by Karen R.J. White (Author), Pamela Puleo (Introduction

    3. Drax*

      Calendars. I use monthly calendars with key dates noted, as well as color assign each project. I personally use the big desk top monthly calendar so I can write notes on it and have more space to add in deadlines and such.

      Every time you take on a new project spend 15-20 minutes making your timeline then mark them ALL (even insignificant dates) on the calendar – use the same one for all your projects. I include dates for self imposed deadlines, and such in order to keep me on track and even notes like “Check with Jane for X, Y”. Then at a glance you know what has to get done that week and what’s coming up.

      I’d also take a look at the Kanban method which is pretty cool one, but i do not have the space to set up.

      1. Drax*

        Also, I work in project manufacturing so I’m not 100% how that would translate into events but it may work

        1. Kate*

          Do you have some kind of standard project management methodology on your team? If your team doesn’t and you’re all kind of your own – consider suggesting a standard task tracking system for the team. You can gather input from others on the team (especially those who’ve been there a while and are successful in the eyes of leadership), and use their tips/tricks to help build out a tracking system.

          Without a PM tool of any kind… I live and die by my outlook calendar like others have said as well. I use color coding as well at a really basic level – I don’t color code everything, because that just adds more work. But, the standard blue color is basically everything, then I use green for urgent/time sensitive tasks, and yellow is for reminders.

          So if I have a deadline I need to meet on a Friday, for example – I’d block out time to complete the task prior to Friday, but also schedule some reminders leading up the deadline.

          Also – less popular, but if you have multiple projects – I would create a one-page (if possible) checklist to manually mark off what’s been done, key dates, etc., for each project. Then use outlook for major milestones. Depending on how much paper you work with – you could have a binder for each project and put your checklist in the front cover. Or – it could be just a checklist and all your actual work is online. Or – if you are paper free, create an excel checklist and digitally update as you work on each project. (If you do this – each project could have it’s own tab, and you can design it so you have one main tab with all “due this week” tasks so you can see your week at a glance, etc.) Paper or electronic really just depends on you prefer to work. Sorry this was kind of a big ramble :)

          1. Mimblewimble*

            +1 on color coding my outlook calendar. I give each color a fun name for those moments when I need something small to smile at. The red color is used for deadlines and I renamed it DEFCON 5.

            I also put reminders on my calendar so I won’t forget key project events.

            I use spreadsheets and Gantt charts to track my current, upcoming, future, and completed projects.

            As for project plans, I use my own template but there are many online you can use to get you started. The key is to work backwards from the end/launch date to figure out milestones. From there you can create a schedule. Then adjust the schedule as the project scope becomes better defined; it’s ok to have a pretty basic schedule for projects that are a long way off. It’s very normal.

            1. Memyselfandi*

              Color coding for me too! It also gives a quick visual read on how your time is being distributed among projects and any imbalance.

      3. Frankie*

        Calendars are key for me as well. Kanbans are okay for sub-portions of projects, but for the higher level, I need to map everything out on a calendar. I put final deadlines and then work backward in the calendar to figure out all the activities that need to happen. I try to add a little buffer, too, because little things always come up.

        There are free project management tools out there that let you construct separate projects and look at all of them together on one calendar. Personally, this is what works best for me.

    4. Meredith*

      Do you have project management tools? Do you have tasks or moving parts that other people need to be responsible for, with specific due dates? If so, I’d recommend looking into a system that can help. It could be as simple as Basecamp or more complex like Wrike, Asana or Teamwork (I use the latter). I think all are free for a small number of users, and then have paid options from there.

      I also love my physical paper planner. I use the Full Focus Planner, which has a 2 page spread for each day, including a daily Big Three priorities, task list, day calendar for appointments/meetings, and a full page for notes (plus more note pages in the back). The Full Focus system is really about large and small goal planning, but the planner itself is super well laid out for my needs. (I’m a digital marketing strategist and account manager at an agency, so I juggle multiple clients and work with a team who all execute different parts of projects.)

    5. Professional Pup*

      Do you have a budget for software? I really like Asana for for a ‘home base’ of sorts (it does actually have a free version that works perfectly, but if you want to get your team onboard and do more advanced things with it, there’s a subscription). I also really liked the book “Project Management for the Unofficial Project Manager” when I started taking over multiple projects.

      You’ll want to break down the project into progressively smaller chunks. So let’s say the project is “Release a new teapot” — your first break down would be large chunks like “Create teapot design,” “Get approval for teapot,” “Manufacture teapot.” Then you might break down “Create teapot design” into “Brainstorm teapot features,” “Consult with teapot engineers,” “Develop 3 prototypes,” and then you might break down “Brainstorm teapot features” into “Meet with design team about color schemes,” “Do teapot market research,” “Sketch teapot ideas,” etc. What I’m saying is, don’t try to jump from “Release a new teapot” straight into “Meet with design team about color schemes”-level tasks. If you’re planning a project you’ve never done before, figure out where you need to start with the high level tasks of the project, then get face time with the people who can answer your questions – like, “I know I need to get approval for the teapot design once it’s complete. Which departments need to be involved in that?”

      1. ACDC*

        I was also going to recommend Asana. It’s a great tool and easier than making multiple calendars, folders, etc. to manage all of your stuff.

    6. CM*

      For the multitasking piece, I keep a single piece of paper (or a single page in my notebook) that succinctly lists all the projects I have going and (if possible) their current status. It’s a single page so I can look at it really quickly and remind myself where everything is in the big picture.

      For the project planning part, there are lots of methods and lots of tools you can buy, but the important thing is really to know who’s doing what and how long it takes to do that stuff, and then check in to see if it’s on track. I’ve never found anything that works better than getting the whole team in a meeting room or on a conference call and developing a workback schedule together. It gives everyone a chance to hear why it takes so-and-so a million years to do something they assumed would be a quick task, and understand why the milestones and soft deadlines are set where they are. For tracking what you’ve committed to as far as the schedule and whether people are making progress, you could use Basecamp or Asana or, if you have no budget for that, even a google doc that everyone can see and update.

      Pro tip for tracking other people’s progress: don’t just ask a yes or no question like, “Is this on track?” because people will say yes when the answer is actually “IDK because I completely forgot to think about it until now” or “IDK but I’m assuming yes because I think someone else is doing it” or something similar. Ask more detailed questions about the level of progress you’d expect to see at this stage (if someone’s producing X number of widgets ask how many they’ve produced so far, or which parts of the process they’ve done so far, or if they ran into an issue with Y that would crop up at the end of the process), or ask them to bring a demo to the meeting, or set an expectation that people give a short speech about what they’ve been working on at the status update meetings and that it’s more detailed than just saying, “I’m totally doing that.”

    7. AnonPi*

      For a digital task tracker check out trello, I’ve used it a little but don’t have many long term/large scope projects so I’ve not used it to it’s full capabilities. But I know a lot of people at my workplace use it and really like it.

      1. Nela*

        I second Trello!
        I use it to manage my own business, as well as events I worked on with my (former) nonprofit organization, and it has never failed me. One thing I’m missing is a calendar view that shows deadlines across multiple Trello boards, but you can get around that with the Planyway power-up.

    8. RavenclawShorts*

      I typically use Microsoft Project and make gantt charts but that is typical in my field. It can be time consuming but it works well for what I use it for.

    9. Imprudence*

      Not Project management but the Getting Things Done by Dave Allen book was life changing for me. keep a list of projects, Next steps(s) and dates to review.

    10. GG*

      Echoing others on heavy Outlook use! You can find what works for you but you could try things like – recurring appointments, e.g. every Monday afternoon, for yourself to “check in with Partner X” or “review budget spend.” Putting deadlines in Outlook but more valuable is the week-before a deadline, e.g. “start working on grant report, due in 1 week.” When I’m feeling really organized I’ll also block a time for myself “work time on Project X” and in the meeting invite I’ll list the tasks I want to get done in that time chunk.

      I also keep a three-tiered to-do list to manage big picture and micro: 1) A macro list that I update maybe every 1 – 2 weeks which is more “things to keep in mind.” It’s organized by project and the list items are not discrete tasks but more like “figure out who to talk to about this question” or “think about strategy for next month’s meeting – it’s how I keep track of the general questions and big things that are going on in the project I need to have on my radar. 2) A to-do list for the week – these are closer to discrete tasks – “plan and share agenda for next week’s meeting” – “research topic A.” 3) A daily to-do list (when I’m feeling really organized) which are very specific things I need / want to get done that day, which will help me complete the bigger picture things, e.g. “read Articles A & B” “email Sarah about the meeting” etc.

      For the project plan – are there plans for similar projects that have been done previously that you can use to understand the big milestones and how long they generally take? Ask a veteran to sit down for an hour and just braindump for you, and then you craft it into a more organized project plan? I often build project plans in a lot of detail and then find that I never return to them and they almost always end up being way off – so I think a key to using them effectively is really ensuring they’re living documents, as things out of your control will always happen, you underestimated how much time something would take, etc.

      Good luck!

    11. YetAnotherUsername*

      I have a work bullet journal. I use the threading and page numbering / indexing tools and have a weekly spread with 5 days and a to do section. Bullet for to do, dash for info, box with bullet for meeting. X means complete. Move tasks forward as needed.

      I also use outlook to set reminders for myself to check on things. You can set an appointment to still show you are free in case anyone needs to book a meeting but it will still pop up as an appointment to remind you. Set outlook meetings with other people early and book them a long time out. They might have to move but that’s fine, if you don’t put them in they won’t happen.

      Once a week take stock of everything and at the end of every day do notes from today, actions for tomorrow.

      I also have an “outstanding actions” excel file for each project.

  25. Left out?*

    Hi Guys,
    Happy Friday. I have a question for y’all cause I need a reality check. There was a local (within 2ish hours drive) conference this past week that I attended with my boss last year. It was a great conference and I was really looking forward to attending again this year. Back in July, I asked my boss if I was attending again, and he said that after discussing it with the CEO they choose not to have me attend with my boss because of office coverage. I never confirmed it with the CEO. Yesterday my boss came back and handed me my swag bag and told me people asked about me. Turned out I was registered to attend (I have my access badge and everything). This is weird right?

    1. Laurencia*

      That is weird! I would talk to the CEO so it’s clear you didn’t deliberately not show up / waste the inscription fee

    2. AnotherCorporateStooge*

      I don’t really see the weird… maybe whoever manages registrations messed up and registered you? It does bode well that people asked abut you which means you made an impression them.

        1. Lily in NYC*

          I bet your boss didn’t want you to take the day off and your CEO never said a word to him about your not attending.

        2. Psyche*

          Is it possible he registered you before they decided that office coverage would be an issue? You can always clarify it with your boss. It doesn’t sound like he was wondering where you were or thought you forgot to go.

    3. Lovecraft Beauty*

      That’s super weird. Probably attributable to communications failure, but I would follow up aggressively to ensure that people know you wanted to go and were never given information you should have had.

    4. Antilles*

      The decision itself is totally reasonable – having multiple team members out at the same time can be difficult. Even if it worked fine last year, it’s possible they realized that it just wasn’t a great plan.
      But it’s definitely weird that they told you it didn’t make sense this year, but paid for your registration anyways and didn’t tell you that. Especially for a local conference like that where it’s feasible to cherry-pick a day or two of particularly interesting topics without needing to have a full-week hole in coverage.

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      To decide you need to be in the office, and tell you this when you ask: not weird.
      Not following up with the CEO after your boss tells you this: also not weird.

      To register you anyway and not tell you: super weird. At minimum, it’s a waste of the company’s money. I’m surprised they just let the registration go unused instead of trying to get a refund or transferred to a coworker.

      1. Psyche*

        Most of the conferences I go to are nonrefundable and often non transferable. Also, if there was another colleague that would benefit from the conference I would think that they would also be able to provide coverage so it may be that there would be no one else who would benefit from the conference. It really seems more likely that he registered before talking to the CEO and decided that the lost cost of registering was better than the lack of coverage.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      And why didn’t your boss call you when he didn’t see you there, if he registered you? SUPER WEIRD.

  26. Joielle*

    We talk a lot about how it’s not a good idea to work for your friends – which, in theory, makes a ton of sense. And we also talk about how the best way to network is to think of it as taking a genuine interest in someone and making a connection with them.

    So here’s my question. I recently started a new job, which I got partially because the hiring manager is a friend of mine. We met at a networking event when I was in law school, kept in touch, and became genuine friends – not super close BFFs or anything, but we’re part of the same social circle, invite each other to parties a few times a year, know each other’s spouses, etc. It’s going just fine so far – I think we are going to pull back the social interactions a bit, but since we have friends in common, we’ll still see each other socially from time to time.

    I feel like I did the right thing – networking via making a genuine connection with someone – but still ended up in a “bad” position – working for a friend. I don’t really have a problem, since in this case I don’t foresee drama (although I guess you never expect it) but I’m interested in what you all think. Should I have done something different?

    1. AnotherCorporateStooge*

      Hard to say… if you’re both capable and reasonable adults you should be able to navigate this with few hiccups. Why do you think you should have done something different?

      1. Joielle*

        It just seems to be a generally-accepted principle around here that you shouldn’t work with your friends because of the potential for interpersonal drama, which makes perfect sense in theory… except that if you do networking right, you’ll probably end up being friends with potential colleagues.

        In my case, I’m happy with how it’s playing out, but I’m interested in peoples’ perspectives on what seems to be two opposing principles.

        1. Psyche*

          I think that the advice is generally referring to close friends. Interpersonal drama is much more likely if you are really close and hang out a lot than if you go to the same parties a few times a year.

        2. sacados*

          I think the caveat is that it needs to be a relationship where the friendship is not more important than the working relationship.
          Sort of like how people say don’t lend money to family/friends– unless it’s an amount that you would be OK with theoretically never getting back.

          Because if you do wind up working for a friend, it’s going to cause problems if you try to maintain the friendship over/at the expense of the working relationship. If you’re both able to scale back on the friendship and transition to a healthy boss/employee relationship then you’re going to be fine!

    2. Lily in NYC*

      I worked for one of my closest friends for 3 years and it was awesome (corporate office, not a company he owned). We knew we could handle it because we both work hard and are drama-free individuals. We never had an issue, not even once. His other direct reports knew we were friends but I had a completely different role than they did and was not competition to them, so there was no resentment. They were thankful to have me because my role actually saved them a ton of painful work. Neither of us took advantage of the fact we were friends (meaning I didn’t expect special treatment) and I was really sad when he moved on. I would work with him again in a heartbeat.

    3. cmcinnyc*

      I’ve been in a similar position many times. I’m in a business that networks heavily–you really can get nothing done if you don’t know anyone. And that means, yes, you will make friends. I’d say most of my professional network are what I’d call friendly acquaintances, but I have some true friends among them. This is typical in my industry. I’ve experienced and seen it go very, very well. I’ve had horrible experiences/witnessed some catastrophes as well. And everything in between. For me, the principle is Work Product First. And boundaries. And maturity. And just… knowing that sometimes something will become a mess because of personal relationships and business being mixed and that’s the way it is.

    4. tamarack & fireweed*

      This is something I have a few steps worth of disagreement with Alison about, so take it with a huge pinch of salt: I actually don’t think working for or managing friends is necessarily perilous … if both are able to behave like mature adults, separate out “friend” things and “work” things, and are resilient around things neither of them has much control over, or where conflict arises.

      I was in this situation more than 10 years ago. I was hired into a team where I quickly became good friends with one of the colleagues. It turned out that even though we were both then in a different country from our country of origin, we had gone to the same school, lived in the same town, hung out in the same places and known the same teachers, but with him being 5 years older, didn’t know each other back then. 6 months after being hired, I was made team lead, with day-to-day management responsibility over the team (which during my tenure grew from 3 to 9 reports, plus me). Our general manager, who was probably the first actually good manager I ever knew, sat me down in his office and said something like this: “Congratulations on your promotion. Here’s a thing you need to know: You’re going to manage a friend. This is possible. [Insert somewhat contrived anecdote about the owner of a small company who had to fire his underperforming son, but immediately offered him financial support to get back on his feet… the upshot was to keep apart the roles of “superior/boss” and “friend/person you care about”.] There will be times where you have to talk to him and say ‘this is your boss speaking’. There will be times when you can be a friend.” Etc. And it turned out fine! What actually happened is that my friend felt empowered (qua friendship) to tell me things that every leader hopes someone will tell them, but team members rarely bring up. In my case, the team was frustrated that meetings didn’t start on time, so I buckled down and learned how to run meetings efficiently AND ON TIME. I was better at my job because of him.

      Now of course in your case, it’s most important that awareness of the potential pitfalls and how to avoid them is on the radar of your friend, as he’s your boss. If your friendship is close enough, you may even bring it up with him. Good luck!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I can agree with this. It can work.
        It’s like dancing though, one has to lead and the other has to follow when it comes to the job.

        I have a boss now that I consider a friend. Fortunately, I am in awe of her as a professional so this makes it super easy. When we are talking about work, she is The Leader. When we are talking about life stuff, you can feel the equal footing come right back into the conversation.
        Additionally, we have worked together for some years now. We each have mundane parts of the job that we know the other one excels at. If she has problem with X, she knows I am good at X and I will fix it when I come in. And the reverse is true, she can fly through problems with Y in a very short time. I wait for her on all the Y problems.
        As tamarack points out, we can say things to each other that others may not say. And it’s fine, no drama, just “thanks for telling me.” Another thing that has happened is we have worked out standard ways of handling things that are custom fit to us as a team and suit how we handle the work. These standardizations may or may not work for another set of people doing our work. This is interesting, we have come up with the SOPs because we were highly motivated to see the other one succeed. Handling piles of confusing stuff in a similar manner each time is very supportive to the other person. When I get something from her with steps 1-3 already completed so I don’t have to do that part also, I realize that she is thinking about what the workflow looks like on my end. It’s a warm gesture.

    5. LilySparrow*

      I think that’s a perfectly fine level of social contact for coworkers and a boss/employee.

      I mean, if you met someone on the job and got together socially in groups 2-3x per year, you’d meet each other’s spouses and have an overlapping social circle. And if one of you got promoted, you could dial it back a little without anybody getting crushed.

      The problem is when you’re so involved with each other’s lives that the boss is tempted to overlook performance issues or cross professional boundaries and make unreasonable demands. Or when the obligations and emotional vulnerability of friendship interfere with giving or receiving appropriate feedback.

    6. Anon Now Nearly Friendless at Work*

      I had several jobs where I did work with friends. The work was interesting and highly technical. Right now I have interesting and highly technical work, but I definitely am not working with friends, and I miss that aspect a lot. I have opportunities here that I didn’t before, so it’s a natural progression, but I’d love to be working in a more friendly environment again.

      Humans can always manage to have drama, and taking steps to try to anticipate all situations in advance, like not having friends at work, are not likely to be helpful, in my opinion. Certainly I have seen many dramatically awful situations that did not involve friends at work.

    7. Hamburke*

      My husband worked for a friend twice – the first turned out poorly and the second turned out to be one of the best work experiences he’s had. We moved with small children and me a sahm for both of these jobs so there was significant risk. He’s moved on from both jobs now and we’re only friends with one couple.

      The one that went poorly had lots of signs that his friend wasn’t a good manager from the start (shifting priorities with no communication, overpromising, very little communication of project goals or methods followed by berating when their finished project didn’t meet his vision, shifted blame from the boss to the worker bees to higher ups, failure to do the admin side of managing – check ins, reviews, approval of pto, etc). Some of this came from the high pressure industry they supported (IT dept for accounting firm) but it definitely could have been managed better.

  27. The Curator*

    Who hoo! The book came off the press reformatted and it looks beautiful. I have received numerous speaking invitations to talk about the work. Whew. Having a bit of post project let down. Suggestions? Recommendations?

      1. the curator*

        I don’t know. I was so excited and exhausted. Many nights and weekends. I have classes to prep for and a few other small projects as well as the usual deadlines and am feeling a bit meh. I did take it easy today and just go in for a few hours.

        1. Office Gumby*

          Post-book ennui. It happens to every author.
          Best way of getting over it: write another book. Really. Get back on that horse.

    3. LizB*

      Oh hey there fellow Minnesotan! I’m not a librarian but I work with kids and I kinda want to read your book now, it looks awesome. As for post-project let down, can you take some time off or treat yourself to something fun over the weekend, then come back to reflect on what you’d like your next project to be? (Which might be scheduling all of your speaking engagements, for a while.)

      1. the curator*

        My classes begin next week so life is going to pretty packed real soon. Next project that has been hovering is a graphic format how and why to read aloud to kids of all ages. Sort of a comic “read aloud handbook”
        I hope you can take a look at the book. It is a free download. I already heard from one after school program in Minneapolis that has started doing it. great weather today huh?

    4. Parenthetically*

      Yes, take a day or two to do something rewarding and fun. Get out of your usual routine, even if it’s just going to a nearby city to wander around their museums or bookshops or waterfront and eat in their restaurants. It’s a great way to build a bit of a gateway between the end of the stage you’ve been in and the start of a new one. You could even design it like a personal retreat where you start to think about goals and next steps.

      And congratulations!

      1. the curator*

        A retreat. That is a spectacular idea. I haven’t been to the pool in months. Its time to get back into a regular exercise routine. I committed to not looking at anything work-related this weekend. Fun- what is this fun that you speak of and how does it happen.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      I’m with the treat-yourself faction. Then pick a new project and get started on that. Congratulations!

      1. the curator*

        I have just finished my emails, my blog posting, and I am officially taking the WHOLE weekend off. I have a comfy porch. A new laptop. A stack of books. Food in the fridge. And the small old dog.

  28. Meminator*

    I’d love to hear people’s dealbreakers—in the past, what has caused you to look for a different job? I’m interested particularly in situations where the current job isn’t a nightmare hellmouth…where there’s significant benefits to the job you’d be giving up. Where is that line for you all and what pushes you to take the leap?

    1. Lygeia*

      I am just starting a job search. I’ve been with my company for a little over four years. It’s been a great place for my professional growth. The thing that is causing me to consider moving on? My boss, who is the founder/managing director of this small company, is starting to think of retiring. Along with that she’s been loading a lot of projects on me in order to prepare the business to sell. So I’m getting overwhelmed. Combined with the uncertainty of what will change when the company changes hands, and it feels like it’s time.

    2. Lovecraft Beauty*

      I just left a job where I loved the work and loved my coworkers …but there was very little room for growth-on-paper (title, salary) and which was heading into a period of work that looked like it would be super stressful and I wanted no part of it. And I was pretty mad about the lack of growth and how upper management talked about it.

      I generally keep an eye on what’s open in my field and keep my résumé updated so I can apply on a moment’s notice, so I’m always theoretically ready to apply to the “perfect” opportunity if it exists. The job I started had a significant increase in responsibility and salary.

    3. Fiddlesticks*

      Vacation time. A few jobs ago, I was offered an opportunity for a significant pay bump, but in the discussions about the role, it came out that the company only offered 10 days PTO a year — which for the industry we’re in and the seniority they were hiring for was an absolute dealbreaker. I told them thanks but no thanks and sort of marveled that any of my counterparts would bite.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        My husband was given that initial offer of 10 PTO days for a very senior experienced position. He would have turned it down flat too if they hadn’t immediately backtracked and offered 15 + flex options. It’s still not great, but he basically told them 10 PTO was far below industry standard and they had probably heard that enough by then to force a change.

    4. cloud puff*

      I left a job where I enjoyed a lot of things like cool coworkers, flexible hours, nice manager, etc. One day I just realized I hated 80% of the work I did, but really enjoyed 20% of it, so I left and pursued a job where I did more of that 20%.

    5. ThatGirl*

      My newest (current) job just sorta fell into my lap, but I had been starting to think about my future in that role because while it was by no means awful, I liked the company more than the role itself. I felt like I was never going to quite get the time and leeway to do what I wanted to do with the job, no matter how supportive my manager seemed; there were always more pressing issues I felt I had to take ownership of. I also was a lot more customer-facing than I had thought I would be. So when a new opportunity at the same company presented itself, I thought – what do I have to lose. And I went for it.

    6. Saraphina*

      I’m dealing with what appear to be some sexist issues at my workplace…I love the work, but it might be enough for me to look elsewhere, and it’s only been a few months.

    7. Meredith*

      Salary freezes. I moved up the salary ladder well at one company, for the first 5 years. Then recession, salary freeze, then I began working remotely, and I knew I’d never get another raise. What seemed like suddenly (but wasn’t) I wasn’t really making all that much money for my field. So it was time to move on.

      Also, management changes that don’t affect your position or work, but can signal turmoil in the company. That was a lucky break for me – the CEO resigned, then the number 2 guy resigned 6 weeks later. The new President/CEO seemed to be a bit of a blowhard, and I already had one foot out the door. The new guy had been there less than 3 weeks when I gave notice. The company ended up folding about 6 months later.

    8. Professional Pup*

      Low pay compared to market for my position was keeping me VERY close to the line for 2 years. TL;DR what pushed me over was realizing that institutional dysfunction was going to leave me stuck with an incompetent coworker who was a terrible fit for her position.

      The long version: last year, one of my coworkers resigned very suddenly to take a new job, and my other coworker was leaving around the same time because of a planned move to another state. My department went from 4 full-time staff to 2. Then, the CEO overruled my boss and moved my remaining coworker to a different department for 3/4 of the day, so I was now by myself. My boss made an internal hire, Cersei, from another department that seemed like a good fit, but she turned out to be total dead weight AND extremely unpleasant/rude. So, I was basically handling all the day to day operations alone. I raised the issues with Cersei to my boss several times as they became more and more apparent, and eventually I realized that because Cersei had been with the company for quite a while, it was unlikely that they would fire her. Of course, the dysfunction that led to this one particular issue was part of a much larger pattern of problematic organizational behavior, but this was somehow the straw that broke the camel’s back.

    9. Goose Lavel*

      I asked for a salary review after doing many tasks above my job description for over a year. Told I had to wait on a company wide salary review.
      3 months later, review came back saying I was under paid by 40% as I was working as a laboratory manager and not as a technician. Knowing how tight my company was, I said I would accept 20% raise and they offered ZERO!
      I put in my notice one month later and they never asked why.
      Best move of my career.

    10. Cheese and wine*

      Loved my job, loved my co-workers, loved the area. But when my department was targeted for budget cuts and layoffs, my boss openly told us he wouldn’t fight for us because it would endanger his job. I lost any remaining respect for him and realized I was heading for honest-to-Dog insubordination. I doubt he’d ever have fired me because that would take effort, but the realization that I’d gotten into such a negative headspace got me searching.

    11. Kate*

      My last straw was essentially being passed over for a promotion – literally not even being considered – for someone with no experience in the role. Backstory – I had worked on the team for 10+ years and worked my way up the ladder. For about 5-years I was in the position where I was the #2 person in the department, second to my boss. She actually got fed up with senior leadership eventually and left – and 12-hours after she announced her departure, I formally approached her and shared that I would like to be considered as her successor. She informed me that senior leadership already identified a new guy to take over – it was decided that he would be her successor (should she ever leave) well before she actually chose to resign. So for me – it was knowing that beyond our team – senior leaders didn’t see me as a leader, and never even considered me. On my team and my direct boss – they all thought I was amazing and the broader team was pretty shocked that I *wasn’t* going to be taking over. I stayed on for nearly a year after – but finally threw the towel in and let the org, but on a positive note, gave a month notice, all relationships in tact, etc. I waited a LONG time to leave, until I was sure I was really ready to leave, because overall – I LOVED the company and my team.

    12. Hamlindigoblue*

      I’ve been at this job only since January, and I put my resume out yesterday. The team has turned out to be toxic, the manager spineless, and the way I have found out that new projects (4 so far) have been assigned to me is when strangers from other departments show up at my desk to ask for status. Um..the status is “I do not know what you are talking about.” Everyone is so willing to throw everyone else under the bus. I am worried about moving on because I was only in my last position for a year, and I thought this was going to be a good move. I reached my BS threshold this morning, and it’s just so disappointing.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Oh my goodness. Did you get any indications during your interview that this was maybe not the best move for you?

        1. HamlindigoBlue*

          Not at all. The interview didn’t send up any red flags, and the work was exactly what I wanted to do. I actually wound up taking a slight reduction of benefits to move into this job. I interviewed with my manager as well as two of my coworkers. There was nothing on Glassdoor or Indeed ratings to indicate any possible issues. It reminds me of one big dysfunctional family that can put on a good face for strangers, but inside the home is a different story.

    13. Turtlewings*

      I’ve left two jobs that I really liked — the first because I just wasn’t making enough money to get by, and the second because I really wanted to be closer to my family. Everyone I loved lived multiple hours away from me and I hated it. (Ended up moving into one of those nightmare hellmouth jobs, unfortunately, so in terms of total life happiness I have to say it was a lateral move. It got me where I needed to be, though.)

    14. Red5*

      I’d say about half of the time I started looking for a different job was due to wanting to advance my career. The other half was due to having a bad manager. Sometimes those two reasons collided (I had a bad manager and was able to get a new job that advanced my career). I left one early in my career specifically due to gender-based pay discrimination, though maybe that falls under bad management.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I’m with you on the reasons – needing more money and having bad managers/wanting to advance.

    15. alex b.*

      Great question; I’m enjoying reading these answers.

      Mine: the commute

      My life is 100% public transit and walking (nyc). The commute can make or break a job for me. Regularly terrible commutes spoil my quality of life and mood and exhaust/frustrate me so much that they outweigh almost any good things about a job. Obviously MTA, random issues, and weather can foil things sometimes, and I think I have an OK tolerance level for occasional and light hiccups, but if I have a truly terrible commute regularly more than a few times a month, I’m job searching.

      I left a great job over this years ago. The only access from my apartment was an unreliable, overcrowded bus; then an overcrowded, sometimes closed local subway; and then a hike up a steep hill that would ice over in winter and never get salted. Not worth the great things the job offered.

      1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

        I left a job a few years ago over a commute– they moved offices (only about a mile) and it added an hour to my commute because of Boston’s horrible outdated public transportation system. I was a new parent at the time and it was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

      2. Bibliovore*

        I loved my job. I loved where I lived. I loved my coworkers. The commute was a heavy part of the decision to n take the new job on pro/con list. On good days it took about an hour and 1/4, on bad days who knew, and the starting time was not flexible.
        New job. I learned to drive. I can be in my kitchen with a cup of coffee at 8:15 and be at my desk at 8:30.
        My hours are flexible in the sense that I can work all the time and somedays not arrive until 10 if there are no meetings or classes to teach.

    16. QueryingtheMassesforHelp*

      In my current role, I found that I can live with (barely) the little that I have to do because I am fortunate to get paid a six figure salary to make PowerPoints. Yet, I can’t live with the ineptitude and unprofessionalism of my boss. I really wish that they would get management training and that I could tell someone who could make this happen. My boss has been at the company for a long time so I doubt anything will happen. Which is disappointing, because I’m burnt out from my previous job and wouldn’t mind doing nothing for at least two years before moving back to a job where I’m contributing at a high level and doing things.

      1. Imprudence*

        Commuting.
        Left my last job when I realsied I was spending 1.5 hours a day in a car: 1.5 hours i didn’t have to spare. Also a boss who clock watched me and couldn’t bear that I had negotiated her down to part time.

        New job — slightly fewer hours, same money, slightly less interesting, better benefits, great boss. And Ican cycle to work in 10 minutes.

        1. QueryingtheMassesforHelp*

          I made it in as I was part of the hiring spree to build a new team and my grandboss did the hiring. New hires to the team seem to make up all of boss’ old gossip buddies from their last team.

    17. lnelson in Tysons*

      I made sure that I was included in a round of lay-offs. It was a start up and the home office decided to reduce the US headcount by about 65%.
      As HR, I saw who/which department were going to be gone and who was moving into leadership positions.
      The guy who I knew was taking over, well to call him the devil is being cruel to the devil. So I went to the then CFO (who was also on the chopping block) and asked to lay me off and keep the office manager. Who surprisingly still speak to me in spite of this.
      Another was office politics. A senator was chairman of the non-profit and during the election the place was a nightmare. The President’s behavior after the election was appealing. It really left a bad taste in my mouth.

    18. EDinTX*

      I left because it was clear the last my values were not the company’s values. My boss told me to be less smart because people don’t like smart women and referred to me as his secretary (secretaries are awesome, but I was a director!) when I helped him edit a letter (and he took all the credit). Everyone knew that he was useless, but he talked a good game and was given a pass.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        What the hell?! Yeah, I completely understand why you left. “People don’t like smart women?!” No, only idiots don’t.

    19. NewReadingGlasses*

      Our center director held a center-wide meeting to “boost morale” in which he told us we were all lucky to be there and should stop whining. My morale was actually ok until right that minute.

      1. Onyx*

        I just reached this point at my current company and am beginning to put out feelers for new opportunities. I like my team and my colleagues, but I’m tired of the lack of upward mobility opportunities available to me. I want to lead instead of being delegated to the background. I’m also tired of my manager’s inability to say no to new projects without having appropriate resources available (we desperately need to hire more people) and then passing along the projects with an unrealistic scope to me.

    20. Public Health Nerd*

      My dad taught me that in a typically good job, you can expect to hate it 30% of the time and love it 70% of the time. For me, I start paying attention to what’s going on with happiness at work when I’m consistently hating it more than 20% of the week. I mean, I hate mass mailings and expense reports, but as long as those take up less than one day a week, I’m good.

  29. Boba tea*

    i’m in my last year of college and has some experiences. i just finished an internship as well. how soon do i apply for a full time job that start after i graduate? how do i know if employers are okay with a student who will start when they graduate vs someone who can start right away, do they list it in the job description or? i might move to another state to be with my bf, how do i navigate this out of state job search ? im starting to worry about what to do and how to do it best to have a job lined up after i graduate. any advice is appreciated!

    1. Lovecraft Beauty*

      Depends on your field, but generally if you start applying three months before graduation, people can work with that. (I know law, for example, has hiring cycles a calendar year in advance for entry level; my field has slow hiring processes so I started applying for positions in February when I was graduating in May.)

    2. AnotherCorporateStooge*

      You should be applying to jobs BEFORE you graduate. Some employers will be okay with you starting upon graduation and others will not, just be clear during the interview about this caveat and let it be… though your resume should make it clear that your expected college graduation is, ex, December 2019 or whatever. You should also find out if you’ll be moving to another state ASAP because that will set your geographic boundaries for where you should be applying. Be cognizant that you may have to travel to your new state to interview. I would really start there: figuring out if you’re moving to a new state or not. But if it’s so undetermined, you may want to apply to jobs as if you were moving and to jobs as if you’re not moving and if you get any offers politely decline assuming the timeline works.

    3. philosophical_conversation*

      Yeah, really gonna say that this depends on your field. Certain jobs specifically want New College Grads, for others it depends.
      For example, I’m in engineering and we start hiring in October/November for NCG. Does your school have a job fair or any resources that could point you towards hiring practices in your field?

      1. KTM*

        I will second this for engineering. We are interviewing seniors in the fall and have people locked down by the holidays or early in Jan

    4. LKW*

      That might be a good detail to include in a cover letter. Most larger companies will get it, especially when they see your projected graduation date.

    5. MeMeM*

      All the colleges I know of have a career guidance office. When I was in school, that office made arrangements with employers who came to the school to interview students – the employers knew you wouldn’t be starting until you graduated. You signed up for available interview spots and had a 15 to 30 minute interview at the school campus. If they liked you, it was followed by a more in-depth interview. My niece’s college even helps students who have graduated (for a year free, and then for $50 a semester). There should be a lot of help for you at the career guidance office. I had all my interviews during the final 9 months of school.

  30. Lygeia*

    Having an awkward problem today. I wore a maxi length dress to the office that I love, but it must have dragged or rubbed against something gross on my commute. Because there is a SMELL. Hoping I’m the only one who notices as it isn’t super strong, but it’s really a bad smell.

    1. Jamie*

      Can you see it/feel it? If so (and it isn’t dry clean only) can you go wash it really quick in the bathroom?

      I’m assuming it’s on the hem which wouldn’t really be noticeable when drying in the office.

      1. Emily S.*

        I often spill food on my clothes on lunch. Obviously that’s not as serious! — but I usually just try to clean it up in the restroom. You can use hand soap and water.

        Once I’m done washing it as best I can, I take some paper towels and dab it dry as much as possible.

      2. Lygeia*

        Sadly, I can’t tell where it is. There’s no stain or gunk or anything. I did rinse some of the hem with soap and water in the bathroom, and it helped. I can still sometimes get a whiff, but it might just be my brain tricking me. I think it’s not noticeable to others. I hope :)

    2. Avasarala*

      Once my trash bag leaked some trash juice onto my coat. Thank god it was a waterproof coat but omg it stank so badly all the way home. I felt so mortified—sorry everyone, I don’t normally smell this bad!!

  31. Tintaglia*

    Are there any teachers out there with ADHD? How do you handle it? I teach high school English and have really struggled with keeping things straight and not drown in a sea of papers. Between attendance, collection papers, remembering to post assignments online, grading the papers, entering the grades online, I feel like I’m always behind or dropping the ball on something. And even if I do get things posted, it’s in the wrong spot or for the wrong date. It feels a lot like playing whack-a-mole where I can only remember a finite number of things and that number is less than I have to do.

    1. Eshrai*

      I’m not a teacher, but I am a corporate trainer, and recently diagnosed with ADHD. I don’t know if you have tried medication, I haven’t yet (though I might if I can actually find a psychiatrist who takes my insurance). I wish I could give you advice on handling your time better to keep up with your many tasks, but I have the same problem. I can only give you encouragement and let you know that I thoroughly empathize with you. I work on a team of four trainers and it really helps me because we complement each other on our strengths and weaknesses. They know I am forgetful and prone to going off topic, but they also know that I am a quick thinker with good insights and ideas for process improvement…I just need help with the details lol.

      I have tried all kinds of methods to keep track of tasks and I am sure you have too. I have tried apps, written lists, planners, timers, calendars. As you know, the problem lies with actually remembering to keep checking your lists/calendars, and then with trying to force yourself to concentrate on the specific task when it is planned. I hope you find what works for you, and in the meantime, take a deep breath, remember all the good things you have accomplished, and treat yourself kindly.

    2. just a random teacher*

      To some degree, teaching is just a job with too much to do, so some balls always get dropped. We all just drop them in different places. :)

      Try to find systems for at least some of the things that seem really disorganized, and find ways to be able to quickly tell if you have or haven’t done them yet. If you’re in a building with really stable attendance (most students come on time every day) then having a seating chart on a clipboard for each period and just marking down who is missing on it made attendance much easier for me. (I’d then enter that later in the period while students were working.) I’ve also found it easier if I have them sitting in table groups, because it “chunks” that task (is anyone missing at table 1? No? Ok, table 2?) rather than in rows. In a building with a lot of absences every day to the point that a seating chart didn’t work (because I had them doing group work so I needed to re-shuffle students to be sitting with whoever showed up that day so the groups would be large enough), I just accepted that attendance would take 10 minutes at the start of class no matter what and re-arranged how I ran my class to give myself those 10 minutes while they worked on something. Structuring your class periods so some of this stuff gets done in front of students is really key, because you do not have enough non-student time to do it when they’re not there. If you can get into a routine where important things get done during the class they’re for, then it’s harder to lose the time to do them.

      The best way I’ve found to keep organized about assignments, what they are, and when they are due, is to have a good student-facing system for it that they and I can both refer to later and use that system for both giving the assignments initially and for your records. I’ve used a blog (and posted the assignments every day), a weekly “assignment tracker” paper (that I kept in a binder and projected using a document camera, then put a new sheet on top of the old one each week), and a few other methods, and really, having something consistent that you can actually keep up with and use during class is the most important part, and having it be something that students can use to find out what they missed without needing you in the middle of it is the second most important part. If you have to post the assignments online and have a data projector, use the online assignment posts as how you go over them in class too (project the description as you’re going over it instead of writing it on the board). That way it’s part of your main class prep rather than an extra thing to keep track of. If the assignment changes as you talk over it with the students, dive right into the computer and change it in front of them to reflect the new deal. (This way they can also call you out on things like wrong due dates and you can fix them immediately.)

      I currently keep most of my “teacher papers” in a binder with most recent stuff on top, with tabs for the different classes. Whenever I have a piece of paper I think I’ll want again later, I hole punch it and stick it in the binder. If I give out a handout to the class, I punch a copy and stick it in the binder. This is where everything from answer keys for assignments to notes from staff meetings goes, and it’s mostly just in reverse chronological order (except for the answer keys, which do at least get their own sections), since organizing stuff is harder than just sticking things in the binder and I can generally remember about what time of year I last saw that piece of paper. At the end of the school year, that binder goes on the shelf and I start a new one the next year, so despite being a “disorganized piles of paper” person naturally I’m actually one of the teachers most likely to be able to find a specific piece of paper from 3 years ago now. The key is that I don’t spend too much time thinking about if it should go in the binder – if I might want it later, in the binder it goes.

      You probably have too much grading to do and are trying to leave too much feedback on everything. It’s ok for some assignments not to be graded on some criteria, and to think of ways to streamline things. I’m in a different subject area so I don’t have English-specific strategies, but I’ve found that I have to use rubrics to grade assignments that aren’t just complete/incomplete or correct/incorrect so I can keep track of what I’m focusing on and how many points things are worth. If I try to just give an “overall grade” it gets lost in vagueness and I spent a lot of brainpower trying to weigh how various things should impact grades on each individual paper. If I go in with a rubric, I can use it like a checklist and see what I need to look for, and then the grade just sort of falls out naturally. I have a couple of default rubrics I use most of the time and write specific ones for some assignments. This has saved me hours of agonizing over whether this particular packet is an A- or a B+, since I know how to pull that out of my rubric and I scored the rubric while thinking about smaller things.

      Speaking of packets, weekly packets or notebook checks are a great way to chunk tiny daily assignments into fewer, larger things for you to grade so you have less to keep track of. I’ve used weekly assignment trackers for daily work, where I write the assignments on a tracker sheet on the projector and the students write it on theirs, and then I go around the room and stamp their sheets as I check that they got that thing done in their notebooks (where all of their work lived and which I did not collect). On Fridays, they’d turn in their weekly tracker sheets, and that meant I had one grade per student per week to enter for all of the minor classwork/homework things rather than 5-10 per student. With some classes, you could even go fortnightly rather than weekly, but you might get too many students losing their sheets that way. (I let students who lost their sheets come in before/after school or at lunch to get a new sheet stamped if they could show me the work in their notebooks. If you’re going to do that, insist that all students have their name in ink on their sheets the first time you stamp them so students can’t have a “lose and trade” system.) I’ve also had students make “homework packets” where they actually turn in their work with the coversheet at the end of each week instead of having them work in notebooks and just collecting the tracker sheets, but so many students didn’t keep their old assignments when I handed the packets back that I switched to the notebooks. (You can also collect and grade notebooks, of course, but I just found that overwhelming so I did the in-class checks and tracking sheets instead.)

    3. Anonanon doo doo doo doo doo*

      MEEEEE!

      I have a task list on my desk and write down every thing I suddenly remember to do, so that when I have time to do it, all I have to do is check my list. When it’s done, I strike it out.

      As for the actual class, I have monitors whose sole job is to take the attendance down, manage the bathroom list, hand out the folders, etc. I find the kids remember their own jobs far better than I can remember to do all the components of mine under a lot of stimulus.

      Hope this helps!

      1. Batgirl*

        Me too!
        You have too much to do. There’s stuff that won’t get done.
        Tip One: What I do is I write out a list of priorities for the day which can fit on a Post It. I then use the twenty-ten timer from Unfuck Your Habitat (I get more done on the clock). Twenty minutes head down unfucking the high priority stuff. Then ten minutes ‘break’ in which I either tidy up papers or answer emails and schedule some of the low priority or upcoming stuff in my planner (which will inform the priorities of upcoming days). Actually take a break and make some tea sometimes too. In your case, I’d be tempted to use the ten initially to check over what you’ve done if you’re making errors (this is what I did as a reporter on deadline and I hardly make errors any more). Then a ten minute break.
        Tip Two: Make a hard schedule for your work. I can’t work past x pm and still be effective the next day. If you know the work is going to last all night there’s no way you’re going to be able to keep up a quick effective pace. Give yourself a hard cut off, proper days/evenings off and you’ll tackle high priority stuff at a faster pace.
        Tip Three: it’s still going to be a gigantic mess! There’ll be stuff undone, whackamole practice will make you a pro, piles of stuff will pile up. But you will have tackled the priorities, done them quickly and correctly and then prioritised yourself so you can do it all again tomorrow. And? If anyone says ‘you didn’t do x!’ you can say you were doing y and when x is going to happen.

    4. Samwise*

      Don’t try to remember everything. Even folks without ADHD who have jobs half as busy as a high school teacher cannot remember everything. You need to figure out a written down (could be paper, could be online, could be a combo) system of keeping track of things that works for you. If you can make it sync to your online calendar or email, so much the better — you can set it up to send you reminders.

      I personally use my online work calendar, daily and weekly to do lists, and projects with many pieces go on my office wall with stickies for tasks, reminders etc. For instance: big sticky that says “website” and then stickies below it that say “staff directory” and “accessibility review” and “monthly report”. Then I put up notes with whatever relates to each of those — might be tasks, might be ideas, and so on. I then put the due dates/review dates/other intermediate deadlines into my online work calendar. I review the calendar daily, weekly, and monthly to make my to do lists.

      I am not naturally an organized person. Which is why I have worked out this system and made doing these things *habitual*. Getting started and doing it consistently was really hard for awhile.

    6. Lobsterp0t*

      ADHD essentials podcast just interviewed a teacher with adhd, it was a really good episode. Have you listened to that pod ever?

  32. Magikarps*

    I need help, and I’ve seen other posts about this on the website, but I would like to hear the advice of others and anyone who has had experience dealing with this. I’m an admin. My boss has a pattern of showing up late to meetings, even when he has full control over the situation (most of these meetings are 1:1s he has scheduled himself). He has given me permission to stop him if he’s just chatting with someone to remind him he is supposed to be somewhere/someone is waiting in his office, which I don’t love having to do, but whatever. My issue is that twice this week alone he has blown off meetings with me. He was ten minutes late for our 1:1 because the meeting he was having with someone in his office ran long (should I have knocked on his closed door?). Today, since I am working remotely, he requested I set up a call for us to talk about the logistics of an urgent meeting he wants to organize, and he just didn’t show. He didn’t apologize in either situation.

    I understand that as a director of a department, he has a lot of important meetings to go to, and I can’t decide which ones are okay to run long, but I feel disrespected by it, and I feel like it makes him look flaky and unprofessional. I feel like I have the kind of relationship with him where I could bring up my concerns, but I just don’t know how to do it. If anyone has advice, I’d really appreciate it.

    1. TheAdmin*

      I’m also an admin, and this happens to me too (though my boss is pretty good about cutting meetings off when she can). We have 2 standing check-in meetings during the week, but I view them as “available” time for her, as in it’s ok if I have to move/cancel them in favor of something else. I guess my reasoning for this is that I sit right outside her office, so I can usually catch her throughout the day if I need something. I don’t see it as her disrespecting my time if she doesn’t show up (although I would if it was anyone else!). I guess my view of the role is that I’m there to get rid of the obstacles that get in the way of her focusing on her job, and sometimes, our 30 min meeting is one of those obstacles!

      Is your boss generally responsive to emails? As far as setting up that meeting, I would have followed up after he didn’t show up to your call with an email saying “let me know who you need at the meeting and how long the meeting should be” and go from there, assuming there wasn’t much more to it than that.

      You could also approach him and just ask if your current check-in schedule is working well for him, since it seems like it keeps getting bumped in favor of something else. Maybe you just need to change the day/time. Or maybe you could switch to an email format – I did that with another boss I had, where I sent an email twice a week that had a section for what I had accomplished, what I was working on, questions I had, etc. Then we could schedule a meeting if we need to discuss more.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      My boss has back to back meetings all the time. The admin out front rings his phone once to let him know he’s got ~five minutes to wrap up or he’s getting behind in meetings. Can you ask the boss if you can arrange a signal—even for your meetings?

      1. Magikarps*

        These are both great ideas! I had never thought about the phone call thing, but that’s a good idea. I try to send him an instant message, but he often doesn’t see them. I definitely move my meetings with him around to accommodate his schedule, so the problem isn’t with the specific time we’re meeting. Never hurts to ask him though.

        What is also more difficult for me is that I support two different people, and my other boss is not like this at all. She would never blow off a meeting with me, and if she knew she was going to have a hard time making it, she would send me a quick message to let me know. And that happens so infrequently that I am inclined to be much more forgiving.

    3. Not A Manager*

      “I feel disrespected by it, and I feel like it makes him look flaky and unprofessional.”

      I’d drop the flaky and unprofessional part right away. I just don’t think you’re the best person to know whether he looks bad or not, and I really don’t think you’re the best person to tell him this.

      Personally, I’d also drop the disrespected part. If this were impacting your work in some way, that would be different, but you don’t mention that you actually aren’t getting necessary direction or information. If the issue really is ONLY that you feel disrespected, in my opinion this doesn’t rise to the level of confronting your boss about it. Sure, it’s rude to stand someone up, but this isn’t a social interaction. You’re there to support your boss, and if he has a better use for that time then I think you need to accept that.

      I do think you should inquire about rescheduling, but that’s not a “respect” thing, that’s so that you and he can have the meeting that you presumably both need.

    4. Meredith*

      I think this is an example of different working styles. I’m the person who gets to a meeting I’m running 5-10 minutes early so I have my documents open and everything set up and can start ON THE DOT. My boss will forget about meetings or walk in a few minutes late without concern that she may be holding up her employees, or even a client. I find it disrespectful of my time, but for people in upper management, their time is valuable too. And spending an extra 5 minutes talking to someone who is also a big wig, or finishing up a project with major implications, might really be more important than what you’re doing. (Though I also agree 1on1s are important – however, they are flexible as they are by definition internal meetings, you just have to be careful you don’t postpone them indefinitely.) If the meetings aren’t affecting people outside your company, you might try just changing your mindset. I’m a big believer in the philosophy that the one person whose actions you can control is you.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I tend to agree with you. But I also know that if you can’t find a path through it then it’s reasonable to assume you will eventually leave the job.

      I think you should go instance by instance and ask him, “How do you want me to handle it when [insert latest instance here]?’

      A couple things:
      Don’t look for him to apologize. You will be a lot happier if you tell yourself, no apology is ever coming. See, this is a way of life for him, he knows no different. Fortunately of everything you mention here, this might be one of the easier points to write off as a loss.

      You can feel whatever feeling you want. However remind yourself that he is not being late/forgetting AT you. Also remind yourself that he does this to his family and they are more ticked than you can imagine. I think it’s a fair question to ask, “What do I do when you miss an important meeting/call with ME?” I think if people can have the brass to do X without batting an eye, then I can have the brass to ask them what they want me to do when that happens. They opened the door for that conversation. (Spoken as THAT family member….sigh. Yes, there is an arrogance about it and it will eat you if you are not careful.)

      My question to you is does this job feel more like babysitting than a real job? If you are nodding yes or thinking that it is starting to go that way, then start your job search. Some people can work with this, but I know I couldn’t do it. You know you best, so you know where your limits are.

    6. GDub*

      Sometimes people depend on their administrators to be the “bad cop” and interrupt meetings that are going too long when they don’t want to rush people out the door. Sort of like a body person does for a politician. It’s worth checking to see if your boss is thinking you should do this for him.

  33. ExcelJedi*

    How do you change your superiors’ views of your direct reports?

    I have a direct report who has been here for many (10+) years, and who is sometimes viewed as having the habits she had as an entry level employee. She doesn’t have those habits anymore – her judgement is really good, and she’s learned from her minor mistakes in the past! But her past supervisor was terrible at communicating, and she’s been shielded from feedback more than anything. She wants to stay here, and I want to keep her (I really really on her as a leader within our department). How do I help her be better seen for her talents by leaders one or two levels above me?

    Has anyone navigated this before?

    1. Autumnheart*

      One suggestion would be to start talking up your report to your bosses. “We just successfully launched XYZ widget. Susan managed the project and did a stellar job. Thanks for your leadership on this!” Repeat. This is also useful if you are in the habit, or decide to form the habit, of sending out department-wide emails about the work your team does, because then everyone sees it, including leadership.

    2. NW Mossy*

      I’ve dealt with this a lot, and in fact landed my current job on the strength of my ability to rehabilitate a team’s standing in the organization. One strategy that’s been super-effective for me is to name the issue for what it is and talk openly about how you’re working to change it.

      In your case, tell your boss something like this: “I know Lucinda got off to a rocky start here when she was entry level – she made some mistakes and her judgment wasn’t great. I’ve been watching that closely since I started managing her, and I’m not seeing that any longer. Now, I’m seeing that she’s really stepped up as an informal leader and is making a positive impact with [examples here]. She takes feedback from me very well [cite examples of positive change here], and she’s grown a lot.” From there, the follow-up is to talk about the opportunities you’re giving to Lucinda to highlight her skills and how she knocks them out of the park, as well as actively soliciting feedback from those other leaders about her to feed your coaching. The key is to show those other leaders that you hear their concerns and both you and your employee are actively engaged in doing something about it.

      Side note for you: this is a golden opportunity for you as the manager! It burnishes your credentials as a leader a lot when your directs’ reputation changes under your leadership because people attribute some portion of that to you as the leader. Your job is to create the environment where your directs can do their best work, and significant improvements in performance/reputation are the clearest evidence that you’re doing well yourself.

      1. ExcelJedi*

        Thank you so much for this insight! I knew I needed to be more communicative, but I was struggling with deciding exactly how to do that.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t know how much leeway you have but as you can start giving her more responsibilities.

      What I have done with some folks is have them work with me, so my name is on the work also. And then I can say, Jane did 2/3 of the project herself and I checked it [or finished or whatever]. Here the goal is that I have a final say before the work leaves us. My boss knows that I have looked over Jane’s work. Most of the time I found bosses are satisfied as long as I have my hand in and nothing leaves without being checked over.

      Another things I have found is that I can talk about abilities a person has that no one seems to be aware of. Such as, “Give us project X. Two years ago Jane was doing X all the time, she became very familiar with all the bumps that can come up. We can do X.” In this example, no one has any idea that Jane did X and did it well.

      Know your boss. I had one time where I knew my boss was going to ask Sue to start doing Y. And I was not allowed to start showing her how to do it. So I started showing her and told her to say nothing. We broke Y into parts and she learned one part before proceeding to another part. I checked what she was doing and answered all questions. Sure enough! One day the boss announced Sue would be doing Y starting tomorrow. This is where Y is NOT something you learn in one day. Sue was put together and just handled it, she followed the boss’ scant training and started doing Y. It ended up she did well. I knew she would, disaster averted and Sue got some points for handling things.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Please for the sake of the next hire, let your boss know that you did do some advance training. If you want, say on breaks & when we had downtime waiting for VP Fergus to show up, etc.
        But I can tell you it’s awful to be in a position where your boss thinks a task should be easy & intuitively obvious and everyone else knows the predecessor did have training the boss just isn’t aware of. (Eg previous person had done WidgetRelease at her previous job but not included it on her resume because it wasn’t in the job description when she applied.)

        1. The New Wanderer*

          This is a good idea in general, as many times bosses have no idea what it actually takes to train someone or how much leeway to give them to account for the learning curve.

          The way I read this example, though, it probably depends on why NSNR wasn’t “allowed” to show her how to do Y. Maybe it’s because the boss assumed NSNR would be too busy and shouldn’t take this on as additional work, but it almost sounded like the boss wanted to set Sue up for failure by assigning her a task that the boss assumed she wouldn’t know how to do. Which is obviously not cool, but a boss like that is probably not going to be receptive to NSNR going back to say she did train Sue after being told not to.

  34. Alternative Person*

    I’m a tutor and the not-so-good-place I work at most of the time is really letting the test-taking get out of control.

    (Context: There’s a popular test with a bunch of different levels that people take. It’s just barely fit for purpose, but kids often need a specific level to be eligible for certain schools/school programmes so we have to deal with it).

    First, I told one parent last week that her kid was not ready to take the (pointless, not even on formal scales) lowest level of the test (and she isn’t), but someone else must have said yes, because the kid is now studying for it.

    Second, another kid I taught for a while about two years ago is fully on the test escalator and after skating her way past the way above-average test for her age group (she re-took it at least three times and barely scraped over the pass line) is now studying for the next level, a level she won’t need for at least the next five years, all while the rest of her skills fall by the wayside.

    Finally, a teenager, taking the test just above his grade level has not been shown any testing techniques and could not link any concepts in the questions we were looking at (think connecting flour to sugar to make a cake type stuff). I despair to think what the other staff are doing with him, because it’s damn well not walking him through the problem.

    I am sick to death of this stupid test and all its levels. And the managers who let students take it because they want the money from parents. And the other members of staff who do not maintain student’s ability in other areas and don’t teach basic test taking skills like matching and predicting.

  35. A Horse Eating Apples*

    Previous comment here (changed name, but that’s me):

    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/09/labor-day-open-thread-4.html#comment-2632405

    Second update: I managed to figure out the information for the document and wrote it. Department head approved it with only a small change and we have a new internal procedure. Coworker demanded I send an email to the customer with this information (he had promised – again – that I would do it without consulting me) and I explained it wouldn’t make sense because this wasn’t relevant to this customer. Coworker got mad and left saying he won’t ever get involved with my work again. I apologized next morning because I did say it in a snappy tone due to stress, which doesn’t justify it at all. Coworker said my apology was accepted and is now refusing to talk directly to me when I ask work questions and being extremely curt if I say something in public and he has to answer. Not sure what will happen next.

    1. LilySparrow*

      “I’ll never get involved in your work again.” — This is a win for you. Take the win.

      “Coworker is refusing to talk directly to me.” Also a win for you. Enjoy it.

      Coworker is angry, pissy and curt – let him. He is the one making himself look foolish. Let him.

      1. A Horse Eating Apples*

        Ha. I wish things were that easy. Before the end of today he was already after me asking questions. Apparently the silence only lasts up until he needs me.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      There’s nothing sweeter than getting the silent treatment from someone you don’t like anyway. Cherish the gift.

      1. A Horse Eating Apples*

        That is true, not so much when it impacts my work, though. My days have been more peaceful, though (this coworker is somewhat needy and I’m the favorite target).

  36. Secret Identity*

    This is about dress codes and sexism. My husband got upset earlier this week b/c HR basically made him quit wearing sleeveless shirts because they show his tattoos. He was a bit disgruntled about this so printed out the dress code and brought it home for me to read – basically he wanted commiseration, which I was happy to provide. But that’s not where the weird sexism comes in – that’s a pretty normal dress code policy to keep visible tattoos covered, especially in a health care setting where he works.
    I saw that the dress code specifically forbids thong or bikini underpants (the actual wording of the policy). Of course, when I saw that I blew up a little bit. First of all, how can they enforce this?? Second, wouldn’t that target women specifically since they’re likely to be the ones wearing thong or bikini underwear? Not to say that men can’t, shouldn’t or won’t wear those but generally speaking it’s more a woman thing, right? I might be wrong.
    In discussing it, my husband said maybe it’s because you can see underwear through some of the thin scrubs the nurses wear. He said he hasn’t seen anything like that, but we were trying to come up with a reason for it, kinda throwing ideas out. His colleague’s wife, who was a nurse for that same healthcare facility, said she thought it might be because some of the nurses were showing the tops of thongs when they bent down or bent over because their shirt would ride up and the pants would pull down a bit. Which, yeah, I don’t wanna see their underwear, but still – that’s a crazy policy, right?
    So, anyway, I’ve made this a long post just to say WTF??? Surely they can’t enforce something like that!

    2. ExcelJedi*

      OMG. What manager or HR person would enforce this? How could someone possibly get written up for this (assuming there’s a write-up process where he works)?

      This sounds like a lawsuit nightmare!

      1. valentine*

        This sounds like a lawsuit nightmare!
        There’s no right to wear thongs/bikinis, which are not restricted to women. I trust there’s a story behind it and I don’t imagine it’s amusing.

        1. Frankie*

          I mean, I don’t think this is instantly lawsuit material, but thongs and bikinis are default women’s underwear, and the idea that you can ban two of the most common styles of women’s underwear is ludicrous, a huge overstep, and definitely singling out women specifically. Just because there are men who wear thongs doesn’t mean it’s still not generally underwear for women.

        2. ExcelJedi*

          True, but I mostly think it’s lawsuit nightmare because of the way managers or HR people with less experience and poor judgement may enforce it. There are a lot of things that aren’t prima facie bad ideas, but are minefields for poor implementation, and this is pretty high on that list.

    3. Thor*

      this is really weird. Are they checking? I’d bet the company has some board, full of a bunch of pearl clutching old geezers that made up that stupid rule.

    4. ThatGirl*

      I’m also a little baffled because I could SORT OF see no thongs but bikini style is like…. a really basic style of underwear. Most of what I own is bikini, with a few boyshort styles thrown in for fun. I have no idea how they’d enforce no bikini underwear or how they’re defining that (and what do they expect instead? granny panties?)

      1. A Poster Has No Name*

        Agreed. I can see how you could possibly tell someone was wearing a thong in scrubs, but bikinis? Not sure how you’d tell the difference between them and higher-waisted underwear or even grannie panties. Unless you’re looking waaaay too long at someone’s butt.

      2. Frankie*

        Yeah, I can’t even tell what problem they’re trying to solve here. Is it that they don’t want high waisted styles showing over the top of pants? Is it that they’re too low-waisted and people’s cracks are showing? Let’s say it’s a reasonable thing to ask (which it’s not) and I wanted to comply, I wouldn’t even know what to buy. Like, granny panties can be just as visible.

        Honestly, it sounds like they have a scrubs problem.

    5. Grace*

      That’s bizarre. Also, isn’t bikini-cut underwear basically standard for women? I know it’s what I wear. Do they want everyone to wear boxers or something?

      1. Auntie Social*

        Plus I think there are 3 or 4 different sizes of “bikini”, from just over the hipbone to average to Kardashian.

    6. Penny*

      I am so confused. “Bikini” style women’s underwear is an incredibly common style/cut of underwear. Like, if you imagine what a stereotypical pair of panties looks like, you are probably imagining bikini. What, exactly, do they want women to wear?

      And also of course the whole thing is bullshit. If they don’t want someone’s underwear to show when they bend over, there are ways to indicate that without telling people what style of underwear to wear.

      1. Frankie*

        Yeah they’ve listed…like…90% of women’s underwear out there. So like…what is there left? It’s like if they banned demi-cup bras or something.

    7. Thin Skin*

      A previous company I worked decided to revamp their dress code and listed so many types of clothing for women, in the end an older woman had to ask, “What’s crop top?” I had to laugh.

    8. londonedit*

      I mean, I can see them saying ‘no visible underwear’ because that doesn’t lean towards a particular gender, and no one wants to see men walking around with their boxers hanging out any more than they’d want to see a thong when someone bends over. But yeah, specifying the type of underwear people can wear at work is bizarre.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Yep, this is where I went too — no visible undergarments is a perfectly legitimate rule, and bonus, it’s not gender-specific. But “no bikini underwear” means that ALL of my underwear is against the rules of this workplace. It’s ludicrous and it seems pretty clearly to have been written by a man who knows nothing about women’s underwear styles.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Likewise I could understand “no bikinis” at a hospital near the water… but it would be more logical to say no swimwear. Because Speedos.

    9. Approval is optional*

      If the scrubs they provide to nurses are ‘see-through’ then they should be replacing the scrubs not policing the underwear that is visible through it. If it’s because the tops ride up/pants ride down, then they should provide longer tops or differently styled tops. Otherwise all that will happen is that people will be flashing ‘granny pants’ instead of thongs /bikinis.

      1. Koala dreams*

        Yes, the scrubs should cover the underwear. It’s not like those fancy dresses where you need matching underwear because of the weird shape of the dress. And it should be the same for all genders. It’s just as bad if it’s men’s underwear that is showing.

      2. always a nurse*

        The only units that a facility provides “scrubs” for is the Operating Room, most Neonatal ICU units (to reduce the risk of a pathogen being introduced into the unit), and, occasionally, ER’s. Otherwise, staff buy their own, and most nurses avoid scrubs that risk being revealing. Nurses have a hard enough time dealing with “sexy nurse” stereotypes, we don’t like to contribute!

    10. MatKnifeNinja*

      Welp…(I have no dog in this hunt)

      The thong/underwear thing came out at the hospital I worked at when nurses’ whites were still a thing. Circa 1980-2000.

      Not all white uniforms were the same. I saw plenty of staff rocking the hot pink/red/purple bra and thong look under their nursing whites. The uniform fabric was of a really light material. And some wore their pants low enough the top of the thong was visible along with the big tattoo across their back/hips. I had bigger things to worry about.

      There were complaints.

      What ended up happening is if you came in rocking the Victoria Secret’s cute undies visible from under your uniform, you could call someone to bring in different clothes, clock out and change at home or get written up for being out of uniform after changing into scrubs.

      More than a warning or one write up was enough to get a job transfer denied. I worked midnights. Coworkers wouldn’t rat you out, but the hospital whuft supervisor would.

      It’s still a rule today. No visible under garments showing. So men can’t be wearing their scrub pants low, and you can’t have that cute thong peeking out low cut scrub pants. Most nursing scrubs are so opaque, nothing shows through anymore.

      The hospital has a no sleeveless shirt policy. Tattoos and piercings are sort of up to the different departments. It’s not just the hourly pension who get hassled. My doctor friend lost his admitting privileges over wearing blue jeans, tennis shoes and tshirts while rounding. The hospital actually now has a dress coat for the doctors. The only doctors who can run around scrubs are ones that have a reason to be in scrubs. My friend would throw on a lab coat just to be annoying. Certain doctors could have lab coats. It’s nuts.

      A higher up terminated my friend’s admitting privileges because of this stupid tinkle fight. He lost a huge chunk of income over night.

      My niece’s high has almost verbatim dress code about underwear visible under clothes or used as “outwear”. You get caught, it a Saturday school suspension for four hours.

      2. A tester, not a developer*

        “Tinkle fight” is my new favourite phrase. So much more delicate than a “p1ss1ng contest”. :)

    11. Anon Librarian*

      I have to wonder if this came from a specific incident . . . and then what that incident was . . . .

      Also, sleeveless shirts? Do you mean short sleeved shirts? Like short sleeved scrubs?

      1. Secret Identity*

        No, it’s sleeveless t-shirts. My husband is in materials management, so he works in the warehouse which is actually off-site from the hospital. While those who work in the actual hospital have to wear scrubs, his dress code is a little more lax and he can either dress business casual or wear scrubs, so he chose to mix is up and wear scrub pants with t-shirts and that’s been okay for the five years he’s worked there. However, he likes to show off his tattoos and he wears sleeveless sport-type shirts. Not tank tops or the ones with the huge drooping arm-holes, but just regular shirts that are sleeveless.
        But, like I said – having to cover up tattoos is a pretty normal dress code policy, so while I definitely commiserated with him over it I didn’t really think it was an outrageous policy to have. I was just flabbergasted that HR thought it was okay to dictate what type of underwear employees are allowed to wear.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Everyone could just show up with hot pink or black hipsters under their light colored pants.
          This is so foolish. Why didn’t they just say no see through clothing for anyone. I mean if you can tell what a person is wearing underneath then that means you can see through the clothes.

          Sometimes people make things unnecessarily difficult.

    12. ..Kat..*

      What does your husband do that he was previously able to wear sleeveless shirts in a healthcare setting? Just curious.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Okay, just read your reply above. I don’t see why they are against visible tattoos in a warehouse setting. Unless the tattoos have objectionable content. But, it can be easier to say “cover all tattoos” than make judgement calls about content.

        1. Secret Identity*

          Yeah, that’s what he was thinking. His tattoos aren’t objectionable – at least I don’t think so. They’re logos of heavy metal bands that he loves, but nothing offensive.
          Just in case anyone’s curious, one’s a Helloween pumpkin, a band of smaller pumpkins around his bicep, a Savatage logo with a guitar covered in roses and a Megadeth with that radiation type symbol. So nothing depicting violence, nudity or anything offensive.

    13. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My old hospital had some underwear-based rules, and HR’s official statement was “If we can’t tell you’re breaking the rules, we don’t actually care.”

      The one that always threw me off was the hair color rule – they specified no unnatural colors, such as blue, green or plaid. I really wanted to see plaid hair.

      1. One of the Spreadsheet Horde*

        I’m mildly disappointed there weren’t better Google results for plaid hair.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I had a dream where I had plaid hair. It wasn’t far off reality. Think alternating whole hair dyeing in slightly different shades of brown/blond with light blond highlights and letting dark roots grow. However, everything was a ‘naturally occurring’ shade so would I have been okay or not??

    14. brushandfloss*

      Scrubs can be see through especially if they are white. Anything but dark underwear is going to be visible

    15. Serious Sam*

      What is the EXACT wording of the policy? What does management do if you wear NO underwear at all?

    16. LilySparrow*

      I don’t have a problem with this, because no – they can’t enforce it…

      Unless they actually see people’s naked butt cheeks hanging out of their work clothes.

      I think “Keep your butt cheeks fully covered at work” is a completely reasonable standard. So reasonable that I’m surprised it had to be documented at all.

      And I don’t blame HR for coming up with an awkward way to itemize it, because who would expect that you have to spell this out for grownups?

    17. New Normal*

      That’s just weird. IF the issue is underwear showing then it would make sense to write THAT into the dress code – “No visible underwear.” Done and completely non-sexist since both genders can be guilty of that one. As written it feels very ick.

  37. Data*

    Hi everyone– I’ve been interested in making a career switch into data science, and just ran across the Flatiron School’s data science fellowship/boot camp, which is free in DC if you get accepted. I’ve heard of coding boot camps, but not for data science (and not free). Is there an obvious catch that I’m not aware of? I’d have to quit my job in order to do the fellowship, so I’d rather not find out after the fact that these things have a terrible reputation or don’t make any difference to employers.

    This is the boot camp: https://flatironschool.com/career-courses/data-science-bootcamp/dc

    1. Gaia*

      Do you have experience in data (not necessarily professional)? Do you know you want to do data science? Or do you prefer analytics? Or data management?

      This field, while booming, is incredibly competitive and incredibly broad. I work in data but I’m not a data scientist and I’d never want to be (I don’t enjoy coding that much and I prefer to work with business leaders over IT leaders so I am in the analyst/DM/BA section of data work.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I agree with you. I’m an analyst and I do not want to venture into data science. Not to dissuade anyone from pursuing it, but from what I’ve seen, its a lifestyle commitment. I finish my projects and go home, but the data scientists are constantly developing and running models, and I don’t think they have much free mental time for anything outside of their projects. It’s also a high stakes field and I could not handle that kind of pressure.

        1. Data*

          Great point, thank you both. I’ve been asking myself the same question– I have no experience whatsoever with coding/machine learning so I’m trying to figure out if it’s something I’m interested in or if I should go the analytical route instead. I hadn’t heard about the “lifestyle commitment” aspect of data science, which is definitely good to know; my current field has a definite work-life balance problem and that’s something I’m hoping to break out of with a career change.

    2. epi*

      So, I am an epidemiologist but keep up with this community because we are interested in a lot of the same software, languages, and data sources. I have also considered similar fellowship programs as a way to learn certain skills that are not emphasized in academia. Yes, data science fellowships that are free to participants are a thing. I would say that they are distinct from bootcamps, because they are generally more competitive, require greater qualifications up front, and should not charge you anything (they may even pay you). If you qualify for a fellowship– that is, you have a masters or PhD in a related field– I would advise you to look at a few more and not to consider boot camps unless they will give you a similar experience and price. Also, if you are well qualified for a fellowship, my impression is that you may not need one.

      People with background in stats or some other kind of data analysis– usually in the form of a degree with an obvious connection– can get into this field without additional private training. I have met data scientists with anything from a bachelors degree to a PhD and nothing further, if the obvious connection to data analysis was there. If this sounds like you, there is no harm in spending some time applying for jobs without the extra training. Fellowships and boot camps run all the time. If you think you are close except for knowing a particular language or tool, it’s likely you can learn just that and build a demonstration project for a much lower cost. Check out the specific courses and prerequisites from few different companies. For example, Metis offers a standalone Introduction to Data Science course and all the prerequisites are free resources you can find online.

      If I were in your place and qualified for a fellowship, I would also spend at least a couple months just going to relevant Meetups or hack nights. People in data science and adjacent fields do a lot of these events IME. They will let you see what kinds of projects are considered interesting in this industry, network, and hear about the background of a lot of different people who are successful in data science. You may also find opportunities to join volunteer projects that will help you meet people and demonstrate your skills.

      A huge part of the value of these fellowships, if you already hold an advanced degree in a related field, is learning how people in industry think about and work on these problems, and making industry contacts for your job search. If you ultimately decide a fellowship is for you, comparison shop and really pay attention to the relevance of the projects and data; and the amount of contact you will have with people who could hire you at the end.

      1. Data*

        Thank you so much, this is really useful and comprehensive! I definitely have a lot of research/outreach to do in this area, and I appreciate the road map.

    3. Clementine*

      I don’t have a lot of knowledge about these, but one thing I have heard is that participants always wish they went in with a higher level of knowledge than they had. The more you know when you go in, the less you have to wrestle with “easy” stuff and can focus on the meaty problems and get full value out of this.

    4. Recently started a Data Scientist job*

      Data Scientist here, got the job after taking an online course at UT, longer than the one you linked though.

      I can tell you that what will matter most in the end is not which course you take. As long as you can build an online portfolio on GitHub or Kaggle, you’ll be good. If the course can help you focus and motivate you to use the course as your jumpstart to a solid portfolio, go for it. If you expect the course alone to get you a job, not even a PhD will help with that. (I know bc simply with my B.Sc. and data science certificate I beat several PhDs and got the offer.

      A guide that made a huge difference to get where I am today is this one: https://bealprojects.com/products/how-to-get-the-job-you-want/

      Good luck!

  38. Unsure*

    What do you say to a higher-up who is asking how a mistake happened, and the truthful answer is “my boss screwed up”? And said boss is on vacation and thus unable to defend himself?

    I kind of mumbled my way through a vague “it appears that {technical thing} was done incorrectly, we are double checking for this going forward so it doesn’t occur again.” Now I fear I’ll be blamed but I also don’t want to throw boss under the bus. Scripts, anyone?

    1. valentine*

      It’s not throwing them under the bus to say, “Boss mistakenly zigged when they should’ve zagged.”

    2. LabLady*

      I hate to say it, but if your boss made the mistake, don’t take heat for it. It’s not throwing them under the bus if they actually made the error. I mean, do you think that they’d take the heat for an error you made?

    3. Bagpuss*

      Maybe if they are still asking for more info just “I think you will need to speak to Boss when he returns, I’m not clear why [technical thing] was done in that way”

      1. Unsure*

        I like this, thanks. Will definitely use that if they keep pushing me.

        Just venting: I really hate it when someone demands to know WHY an error occurred or “walk me through your thought process re why you did X rather than Y as you should have” when the answer is either a) people are human and sometimes screw up or forget things, or b) we’re being asked to push out WAY too much work in too little time and no wonder things are falling through the cracks.

        1. Auntie Social*

          This. You don’t name names, you just explain “user error”, or “picnic”, or “I’m working on making the system human-proof, but I’m gonna need more resources. . .”– whatever they’ll understand. Just tell them you don’t see a pattern, it’s a one-off.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      You’re not throwing anyone under the bus. You are being honest. Is there a reason you feel you need to protect your boss? I’ve spoken carefully to protect my staff, but don’t expect them to do the same.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I think your answer is fine but “boss screwed up” would be childish and unprofessional. Unless the grand boss has a known habit of looking for a person to blame so they can be singled out and punished, he asked HOW a mistake was made or not caught, not WHO did it. Identify what went wrong and whether it’s a problem that needs a more permanent fix or if it’s just a one-off mistake. People make mistakes.

  39. I edit everything*

    I’m a freelancer, and I had a very busy summer, to the point of near burnout. I held on until vacation, took a solid week away (to the point where my only work email was “I’m on vacation, so I won’t get to this this week.”), and have been back for a couple weeks now.

    I’m having such a hard time getting back in the groove. I’m having trouble focusing, have little enthusiasm for work I normally love, and am self-sabotaging. Then I have to stay up until midnight to even have a hope of hitting my deadlines. Obviously, I needed more than a week’s break, but #FreelanceLife. No work, no pay. One of my clients had a short-notice project I really couldn’t fit in, but then she tossed out the “I could go with someone else just this once,” so of course I fit it in, because that “just this once” is meaningless.
    What hints do you have for coping with burnout and finding focus when the usual solution (taking a break) isn’t an option?

    1. Anonymous Editor*

      I can totally commiserate. I was a freelance editor for over a decade, and I could never take enough time away to really feel refreshed. For me when I started feeling this way consistently, it was a sign for me to pivot away from freelancing, and I’m now working a corporate job (which I love).

      Consider trying to focus more on projects that really excite you. I know the temptation to say yes to everything because of the nature of the business, but you really don’t have to! See if you can drop any particular project types or clients that you really don’t enjoy working with.

      Also, something I wish I had done but was never really good at was keeping at least one or two days a week totally work free. I think feeling like I had to fit something in every day really contributed to my increasing feelings of burnout over time. I hope you find some solutions that work for you!

    2. Perstephanie*

      Fistbumps of solidarity from another freelance editor who’s been battling exactly this for, oh, about ten or twelve years now.

      I wish I had great advice for you. One thing that actually helped me is doing a sort of mental re-jiggering of how long each project actually takes me. For a long time I took on waaay too much work, because whenever a client called with a project, I would mentally estimate how long it would take me (“200 pages . . . I can do that in two days”) and accept it (or not) based on my estimate. Slowly — this took me *two, three years* — I started forcing myself to revise those mental estimates. No, I can’t do 200 pages in two days. (Back when I just started out, when I could actually concentrate for 12 to 14 hours straight . . . maybe. At this point in my career, 25+ years in: Hell no.) Once I started making more realistic estimates, I was able to manage my schedule a little better, sometimes, sort of. (SIGH.)

      When things go best for me — as Anonymous Editor said — is when a project is compelling enough that I feel my brain kick in: “Here’s a problem that NEEDS SOLVING . . . and I CAN SOLVE IT, I’m actually kind of good at solving this exact thing.” It’s of course impossible to predict which projects will offer that kind of engagement — the kind that leaves me energized and excited about working instead of drained. I have learned that formatting problems (lists and questionnaires and sidebars and pull quotes and etc., and etc.) — especially cookbooks (which are ALWAYS formatting problems) — are likely to leave me happy. It helps to have that knowledge. Happy work = better work.

      And I have learned that mornings are critical for me — if I can sit down in the morning, and sip coffee and check Facebook and faff around for twenty, thirty minutes THEN FORCE MYSELF TO WORK, I have a fighting chance of a good day. It’s a matter of two or three hours when I really have to be strict with myself. It gives me the best chance of setting myself up for the day. It gets easier after that — AND I can sometimes earn myself a little freedom to faff around later without (quite so much) guilt.

      One last thing I’ve learned: I took up a hobby (making silly jewelry). Critically, it’s *creativity that isn’t about words.* In that way, it’s a huge change from my daily work. So whenever I can, I try to set aside an hour or two at the end of the day to make something, and when THAT goes well — when I end up with, say, a pair of earrings that is EXACTLY the ridiculous vision I saw in my head — it, too, gets me feeling engaged and excited. It wakes up that feeling of losing myself in what I’m doing, and taking pride in it. It’s like a little weekend on steroids — a reboot. It helps.

      All of which is the best I’ve come up with. But oh, you’re not alone.

      1. I edit everything*

        Thanks to both of you for the commiseration. I wish I had the variety of work that let me pick and choose projects. I have basically two clients–one is a publisher, who keeps my flow pretty steady, and the other an indie author, who I love. (Normally her stuff is a quick, refreshing, fun bit of fluff, but this one I’m working on now isn’t having the usual effect.) So on the one hand, I don’t want any more work, but I would love some additional clients and variety, so I could mix things up a bit.

        My not-words hobby is baking, and yeah, it’s a nice change, but not something I can do every day (or even want to).

        Ten pages to go, and I can stop for the day…

        1. Anonymous Editor*

          In that case, I would suggest that you broaden your client base. Find publishers that are publishing work that you find really interesting and could get excited about. Diversifying always helps!

    3. Filosofickle*

      My question for you is: Is a break truly not an option? If you truly can’t afford to lose any pay at all, that’s one thing. But if it’s mostly the fear that if you ever say no the work will vanish, I encourage you to reconsider that.

      I’ve freelanced for a long time (17 years) and IMO/IME the idea that you can never turn down work is fear talking, not reality. If you are THIS busy, you are clearly in very high demand! You probably have loyal clients and a great reputation. Everything will not evaporate if you take a little time for yourself. Being booked solid also means you can probably charge more, which will give you greater pay and might even weed out smaller work so you can earn the same in less time and then have be able to take some time off.

      A personal story: A partner and I were frustrated by feeling we could never plan big vacations due to overlapping projects. So we agreed to shut down 4 weeks a year — two in winter and two in summer. We have it on the calendar a year out, and make that clear at the start of any project. It was the ultimate statement that we TRUSTED ourselves and our work. The clients would wait, and would be there when we get back. And you know what? They have been. It’s been two years and it’s going great.

    4. Perstephanie*

      Do you have enough goodwill built up with your clients where you could enlist their help in getting a break? “I find myself in need of a bit of time off. If you run across any projects with relaxed schedules, or a long lead time, would you keep me in mind?” That kind of thing. It might build in a little time for you to take a break but know you still have work waiting when you return?

    5. Nela*

      You probably won’t like my answer, but… Here’s what worked super well for me:

      1. Push back on unreasonable deadlines. Seriously. Your health and well-being is more important than never saying no to a client. Get used to saying no. Clients will always try to make things sound urgent, but more often than not they’re not as urgent as they make it out to be. Or if they really are urgent, saying “there’s not enough time, you need to give me more notice” will train them to reach out to you sooner. Or they will move on and become someone else’s problem.

      2. Raise your rates. If you’re working long hours and still aren’t able to save up enough money to take a proper vacation, you’re not charging enough. There’s plenty of articles out there on raising your rates, go read them and start charging more on your next project – new clients first, and then start informing your old clients of this change.

      3. After you’ve done #1 and #2 you should have more free time. No more working on evenings and weekends. Turn off email notifications on your phone, don’t rush to answer every inquiry immediately, people can wait. You’re not an ambulance driver, no one will die if you go read a book instead.

      4. Save up money so you can take a proper vacation, at least 2 weeks in one block, and increase over time.

      I started freelancing 6 years ago (celebrated my freedom-versary on Sep 1st!) and in the beginning I burned myself so much I ended in a depressive episode which lasted over 6 months. Even when I took time off, it wasn’t enough. After repeatedly hitting the wall, I realized I’m not doing my clients any favors by bringing less than 100% of my focus and capabilities to the table, and I owe it to them as much as to myself to get the rest as I need.
      Over time, I was able to increase time off from work to the degree I never knew I could. Last year I took 4 months off from client work to write a book. (I spent all my savings, but it was totally worth it.) This year I took 4 weeks of vacation in one go, the most I’ve had in 10 years. It’s possible and doable. The thought “it’s just the way things are when you’re a freelancer” is keeping you from seeing other options. It doesn’t have to be the truth of your life forever. You’re a freelancer, you have more control over your career than any employee does. Stop simply responding to what your clients throw at you, and be more proactive about designing your own ideal career.

      You don’t have to make any huge decisions today, but at least have a vision for what you want your day to day to be like, and start making small changes.
      No single client can make or break your career. You are in control.

      1. Filosofickle*

        This is a much better version of what I was trying to say.

        #1 was one of the first lessons I had to learn. Early on I remember asking a client when something was due. I couldn’t make that date — and it must have been absolutely impossible because at that time I accepted deadlines as non-negotiable — so I proposed another one. And he said, sure, no problem…”it was worth a shot”. Worth a shot? He never needed it that fast, he was just swinging for the fences! And it all clicked. They ask for a certain budget or a timeline because that’s what they’d like, not the bottom line. Everything is negotiable in some way or another.

        Honestly, the more I pushed back the more my clients seemed to respect me. At some point I wasn’t getting a lot of business so I doubled my rate, and that’s when my business took off. It’s kinda sad, but people don’t always respect what comes easy or cheap.

    6. I edit everything*

      The busy-ness of the summer was an exception. The publisher I work with had another editor leave in the middle of several projects, and they asked me to pick up her work. I did ask for more money, which they stepped up with. Their deadlines aren’t unreasonable, and they’re very accommodating, so really, I can’t complain about that. But it was a lot, and I’m still feeling it.

      I want to broaden my client base, but that’s a long-term project, and I’m just…tired. “When I get some breathing room, I’ll…”

      1. Nela*

        Yeah, I get it – sometimes work gets intense for a while, but you definitely need to plan for more time off afterwards, especially if you haven’t had a vacation in a long time. I always end up needing more rest than I thought I would. Your body is clearly telling you that this wasn’t enough.

        Earlier this year when I had to recover after a ridiculously intense month, but couldn’t take the entire week off because I was in the middle of onboarding a couple of new clients. I limited myself to working up to 3 hours a day. It wasn’t ideal, but it was better than nothing. And it was also an interesting exercise in moderation and prioritization, because I tend to slide into workaholism and busywork. This showed me what’s essential, and what can wait for another week.

        You can get the breathing room you need if you intentionally block off time for that purpose regardless of how busy you are (say, a repeated event in the calendar every Monday 9-11 or something like that), or you can wait for a seasonal lull if there is any in publishing. I’m a designer so all my clients usually disappear around Christmas/New Year and many also in the summer, which is when I time my longer breaks for, as well as much of my strategic work.

        Good luck!

    7. Baru Cormorant*

      Not a freelancer, but I also struggled to get back in the groove after a break. So I would do a few physiological checks as well:
      -experts say it takes as many hours to get over jet lag as there are hours apart. So if you flew 10 hrs away for vacation, it could take your body 10 days to get back to normal.
      -how is the rest of your routine? are you back on your normal schedule of exercising and eating times? do you have food in your fridge again or are you eating out a lot? are you making healthy food choices? are you getting enough sleep?
      -do you feel off-kilter with the rest of your life or just work? are you making time for your hobbies and friends? do you feel like you “don’t have time” for a little luxury like taking extra time to look nice, or you “don’t have the energy” for mentally stimulating hobbies or friends? sometimes I feel this way but actually pushing through and doing these things ends up giving me energy and joy instead of costing me.
      -are you being patient with yourself? do you think “I should love this, I should be able to do this” and then beat yourself up if you don’t reach that standard? do you feel guilty for letting your brain rest when you “should be working”?
      -are you overwhelmed by your backlog and trying to do everything at once? if you break things down into tiny steps (like “open file” and “find Janice’s last email to figure out where we were”) and reward yourself for hitting those, sometimes I find that helps me set more realistic goals and get a handle on things.

      Hang in there!

  40. Kathleen_A*

    I recently discovered that someone I work with is reeeeeeeally sold on the idea that the title of every new position *must* show career progress. For example, if your title at Job 1 is Kitten Groomer, Job 2 has to show progression, e.g., Senior Kitten Groomer. And then so does Job 3, e.g., Kitten Grooming Manager.

    Which explains why her current title is so odd (to me, anyway). It’s something along the lines of Chief Kitten Grooming Manager, which is weird because she is the only Kitten Grooming Manager, and to me tacking “Chief” onto it implies that there are all these other Kitten Grooming Managers that she is the chief of. None of her predecessors in that job have had a title like that, and none of those currently at her same level in the organization have a title like that either, and so I was kind of puzzled as to where in the world it came from…

    Until just a couple of weeks ago when I heard her talk passionately and at some length on how important it is to always, always, always have a title that implies that each job has been a step up from the previous job. After hearing that, it’s clear to me that when she was hired here, getting a “promotion” title had to have been part of the deal.

    To the rest of us listening to her talk on this subject, that sounded like nonsense. Sure, it might matter to some potential employers, but do you really want an employer who looks at candidates’ titles but not what they actually, you know, do? Who would reject a good candidate because her title is “specialist” instead of “coordinator” or something?

    That sounds absurd to me, and it did to the other people in the conversation, too. But what do you guys think? How important is one’s title when job searching? And how important should it be?

    1. ExcelJedi*

      Lateral moves are a thing. Not everyone wants to move up the ladder, and even if they did….this isn’t the way to show it on your resume.

    2. Gaia*

      Titles are crap in my field so to me this is crazy talk. What matters is that your achievements show progress and increasing skills/responsibility. Titles can be inflated or deflated. Your work matters.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Exactly – titles mean nothing in my field. My company especially is known for making titles up that don’t exist anywhere else, lol.

    3. Antilles*

      Unless the title is super junior and you’ve been in it for a loooong time (wait, after 15 years you’re still a junior salesman?), it doesn’t matter. A lateral move like “Dog Grooming Manager” to “Kitten Grooming Manager” wouldn’t even cross my mind.
      Especially since if her job changes encompass multiple organizations, titles vary so much as to be meaningless. Is “Teapot Designer V” more or less senior than “Teapot Design Engineer” or “Project Engineer”? Good question; each company uses their own nomenclature so the guy reading your resume (who, reminder: is probably spending like 90 seconds on it) has no clue.

    4. Jamie*

      I hate the whole title thing. I was a director for over 10 years and then due to making a stupid move to another director role at a company that I should not have taken I had a really hard time getting call backs on roles as an individual contributor which I thought I wanted – I thought it would help me recover from burnout. Which it did…

      But now that I’m in a role that title wise isn’t even close to director level I have the sinking feeling I’ve completely screwed up what’s left of my career.

      I’ve been here several months, and it’s okay, but you don’t have to be Freud to figure out why I haven’t bothered to request business cards yet.

      In regards to your last question – at least in my industry titles aren’t uniform and some positions have far more responsibility than others with the same title at other companies. So they tend to be more important than they should be, logically speaking. But in reality it’s really hard to get someone to give you a chance to downshift a little…and I assume it will be impossible to move up to where I was again due in part to the title thing.

      But I’m a screw up and not the standard bearer on this.

    5. Zephy*

      I mean, showing advancement is good, she’s right about that. But title isn’t really the way to do it anymore – a “coordinator” at Business A might be an entry-level grunt, but at Business B a “coordinator” might have management-level responsibilities. And lateral moves and career changes do happen and are OK. Anyone skimming resumes for titles only and rejecting/moving forward with candidates based solely on that is also probably not someone you’d want to work for, I agree with you there.

      I’m wondering if the “Chief” got added to her title because your company can’t justify calling her a “Director” of anything, but she insisted on something higher than plain old “Manager.”

      1. Kathleen_A*

        I think you’re on to something. The actual title is “director” – she’s the Chief Kitty Grooming Director (or something a whole lot like that :-) ). My guess is that plain old Kitty Grooming Director, which is what her predecessors (who had the same job and the same amount of authority) were called, is too close to her old title, and since “vice president” would definitely be unacceptable here for complicated organizational reasons, she had to settle for that meaningless “Chief.”

      2. Flyleaf*

        Agree completely. I worked at one company as a VP, and had directors reporting to me. At my next job, I was a director, and the VPs were at a level lower than the directors. It all depends on the company and the industry, along with some randomness thrown in.

    6. Red5*

      If you want to advance in your career, then progressive titles overall may be helpful. However, I think it’s absurd to think every single career move has to include a higher title level. I’ve taken lateral jobs before to fill in experience gaps (and talk to how those jobs filled said gaps in interviews), and have never to my knowledge been penalized for having done so. Overall, I think showing what you accomplished in your jobs is much more important than what the job is called.

    7. Overeducated*

      This reminds me of a previous boss who, when told he was being offered an internal transfer to Chief Regional Specialist, was excited because he thought he’d be in charge of a regional office of specialists. And then it turned out he was the only one sometimes, and sometimes he got one short term employee.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I am chuckling. The flaw in logic here is that not all titles mean the same thing across different companies. Titles are not standardized.

      French fry manager sounds impressive until you think for a second and realize there was probably one person making fries so this person was managing their own self.

      I would just chuckle and say, “Titles are not standardized across all companies.” She will hit a bump in the road where someone will not give her the title she has proclaimed as showing progression and you can deal with it all then. If you want, or skip it if you don’t want to deal.

  41. MOAS*

    Sigh. Not much to add except my boss is going to be out for 3 weeks and I’m dreading it. It was planned and for a good reason (newborn) but I will miss him.

  42. LP*

    Y’all I need help- I hate my job and haven’t yet heard from anywhere I’ve applied (except a couple rejections). I’m a non profit worker three years into my first job as an assistant and it’s been rough from the start. There was a vacancy, as it turns out, because the department head I work for is notoriously difficult and has driven previous people in this position away. She is harsh, demanding, and vague, with little interest in working to communicate clearly or admitting errors on her part. Her boss and other higher ups know about the issues but are just waiting for her to retire due to her age. She is experienced and capable in her very specific subject matter, but going into work every day is a nightmare.

    The worst part is, three years of this boss’ criticism has me feeling like I’m too stupid to ever get another job. I’m not sure how to get past these negative feelings/thoughts (I’m seeing a therapist and have made a lot of progress), but I’m worried that applying for jobs with this mindset is going to keep me from getting something really great. I redid my resume and cover letter thanks to this blog’s awesome advice (and Allison’s book), but I just haven’t heard from anywhere and I’m feeling discouraged. Does anyone have any advice for a situation like this?

    1. Kathleen_A*

      Aside from continuing therapy – and congrats to you for taking that step – I’d recommend two things. First, do whatever you can to ensure that you are doing what you’re supposed to do, even if you boss refuses to see this, and document it. For example, you could keep lists of your activities and achievements, you could keep a detailed to-do list and take satisfaction in checking things off that list, or you could figure out something that you would like to get better at (software or office organization or whatever – doesn’t matter much so long as it helps you do your job better) and work on that. What you want to avoid at all costs is acting like the screw-up that your boss likes to pretend that you are. It won’t change this boss, but it will help you to keep a sense of achievement and purpose.

      Second, once you start getting interviews, you may have to act more confident than you really feel. And I know that’s hard and it feels fake. But once you get out from under this boss, it won’t be fake any more.

    2. Bianca*

      I was exactly where you are several years ago! An impatient, yelling boss who expected you to read her mind and believed the high turnover in her tiny company was just because other people weren’t good at their jobs. It was my first job out of college and I figured that was just par for the course. Since then, I’ve also chatted with plenty of current and former coworkers who have similar stories. I’m not sure how helpful it is to know that you’re not alone, but just know that constant belittling from a terrible boss does NOT mean you deserve all that criticism. Odds are you’re doing a great job by any normal standards.
      Can you try thinking of your difficult experience and any coping strategies in terms of job skills? Managing difficult personalities, being able to adjust quickly to changing requirements, and staying calm under pressure are all really solid soft skills to have.

    3. Natalie*

      Do you have any hobbies outside of work, particularly skill-based ones? Fortifying yourself anywhere, even if it’s not directly work related, can help.

    4. blink14*

      I worked in a horrible, small commercial property office for a good chunk of my 20s. It was my first full time job (I’d worked summers, temp, and side jobs prior), didn’t pay well, but was a short commute and I landed it just before the last recession hit, which translated to being there for a lot longer than I wanted to be.

      My boss was awful, constantly demeaning, suspicious, difficult to work with, and alienating. It took me about a year to realize she wasn’t acting that way just towards me, it was everyone – the maintenance department (who were our other full time employees), the stores that rented space (to the point the managers and owners would only deal with me), and our seasonal temp workers. Once I came to that realization, most of what she did just rolled off my back – I focused on getting my work done and treated the job as basically as possible – a paycheck to live, eat, and enjoy my hobbies.

      I looked off and on for a long time for a new job, but the last 6 months at that old job really spurred me to kick the search into high gear. My boss became even worse and the final straw for me was being reprimanded, in public, at a co-hosted event with a community organization we’d worked with many times, literally for putting a camera on a table. The directors of that organization were horrified and both made a point to talk to me and let me know that my boss’ reprimand wasn’t ok. A month later I got an interview for my job now and left within another month.

      What did I learn from this? I can handle working for an extremely difficult boss. I can navigate a minefield. I can manage up. I can take on any project and get through it, because I made it through that job.

      My advice – try not to take anything negative your department head says or does personally. Other people are well aware of how she acts, and that proves that it isn’t personal to you, it’s the way she’d be no matter who was in the position. You are learning a valuable skill here – how to deal with a difficult co-worker or boss. Use that to your advantage and consider it an “off the paper” skill. You have the upper hand by being able to leave for something better, translate everything you’ve learned at your current job into skills for a new one.

    5. Mellow*

      I’m so sorry, LP. Certainly you don’t deserve this.

      You’re not stupid. You’re being abused. Period.

      Keep reminding yourself of that over and again as you apply to other positions. If you can, apply very frequently, and consider jobs that don’t necessarily hit 100% of the mark but that you’d be relatively happy in, that have a salary you can afford, and that, as best you can tell, don’t have a similar miserable witch.

      No matter what, get out of there as quickly as possible, and shame on your workplace for holding onto her.

  43. TheAdmin*

    TLDR – Should I show my boss our company’s negative Glassdoor and Indeed employee reviews?

    My company/industry is currently struggling. I love my job, but people are feeling the pressure and folks have been leaving left and right over the past year. I recently went on Glassdoor and Indeed and read the reviews left by employees. The more recent ones are overwhelmingly negative and sadly, the truth is that from my experience, a lot of the things described are accurate! I feel like our HR dept is desperate to just fill vacancies, so we’re getting some less than ideal applicants who then HR pressures the dept to just hire, regardless of whether they’re a good fit. This has resulted in numerous new hires that only stay for a week or two, then just stop showing up.

    Anyway, I don’t know if anyone in management monitors these reviews, but I know that before I took a job here, I went on there and read them. I worry that we’re losing quality applicants because of what the current reviews say. I’m wondering if there would be any benefit in printing them off and giving them to either my boss (I’m the assistant to the top person in our company), or the HR director (who is mentioned in some of the negative reviews). I know my boss would be open to at least reading them and hearing what people are saying, especially if I were to confirm that some of those issues are true from my experience.

    My other thought was to post my own review, confirming the truthfulness of some of the negative aspects, but also explain some of the wonderful things about working for my company (again, I love my job).

    Thoughts??

    1. Thor*

      I think you should mention it to your boss. I left a negative review on my last employer for two reasons:

      1)In hopes that if anyone decided to read glassdoor reviews before applying/interviewing/accepting a job there, they would be spared the misery if they saw what I had to say

      Or

      2) Maybe the upper management would see it and realize they need to shape up, because of three reviews left for them ( a small employer) two were very negative and brought up many of the same points. I know others were also looking when I left, and if they want to retain good employees, they should work on the issues. They get raw feedback from previous employees who have nothing to lose by leaving an honest and blunt review anonymously online.

      Glassdoor seems like a great tool to see where your company is really lacking. Unfortunately, most managers do NOT like getting feedback and prefer to do things their way so there might not be any potential for things to change.

      1. valentine*

        Should I show my boss our company’s negative Glassdoor and Indeed employee reviews?
        No.

        post my own review […] but also explain some of the wonderful things about working for my company (again, I love my job)
        Let people have their space. Don’t derail them with a silver-lining spin.

        1. TheAdmin*

          I think the space is for both former and current employees to share their honest experiences of working at a company. If I’m looking at reviews, I don’t just want to hear from the people who already left, I want to hear from the people who are currently there too. And I would want to hear both the positive and negative aspects of a company, so that I could decide if I’m willing to put up with A, B, and C in order to have X, Y, and Z.

          I don’t think it would necessarily “derail” the negative reviews by leaving another review that confirms/acknowledges the issues they presented while also giving my own experience (and why I’ve chosen to stay). I think that’s better than the other fluff reviews left by other employees that just say “this place is great!”

          At this point, I’m leaning more on the side of “do nothing” or “share with my boss” versus leaving my own review.

        2. new kid*

          How is it derailing or ‘spin’ to offer a different (but genuine) opinion? OP enjoys her job and wants to help attract other quality candidates to her company, which posting a generally positive but candid review could help to do. Glassdoor doesn’t exist solely for disgruntled former employees to post their gripes.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Agreed. TheAdmin, if you feel really strongly about it, leave the review and show the negative ones to your boss. Job candidates should have the positive as well as the negatives so they can make fully formed decisions about whether or not they want to work for your company.

    2. epi*

      I think this really depends what you think your company would do about it.

      My husband and I have both worked at companies whose Glassdoor reviews took a well-deserved nosedive at some point. I worked for a health care organization that cut health benefits every year, added extremely restrictive and invasive new wellness policies every year, and lectured employees– literally, doctors and nurses who had shown up to these meetings in scrubs– about our personal use of emergency vs. urgent care being the problem. While we worked overtime to transition patients to a beautiful and extremely costly new building in a much more expensive part of the city. My husband’s company instituted a policy that pay raises for internal transitions would all be delayed by 6 months– so someone who was promoted would have to work 6 months at their old salary. The policy was proposed by his old boss specifically to punish him for leaving her team, but got applied to several other innocent people as well. You’d better believe details of that ended up on Glassdoor.

      My husband’s company HR responded by openly encouraging employees to leave positive reviews, which only led to a mix of obviously impartial posts and posts outing the company as campaigning. HR wrote at least two chirpily defensive, obviously fake ones themselves. It’s clear to this day when you look at their page, even though some things have actually improved. My old company never did that and you get a good, boring takeaway from their page: lowish pay and meaningful work typical of nonprofits, details depend on department.

      Unless you trust your company to respond to the substance of the reviews rather than their existence, then it’s better for them to leave the situation alone. If your company leadership doesn’t know they should be paying attention to their reviews on Glassdoor and Indeed (and is therefore already aware of this), I probably would not trust them to handle it well.

      1. TheAdmin*

        This is a good point. I think if I brought it to HR, nothing would happen (and it’s totally possible that they’re already aware of the reviews anyway).
        However, I think if I gave the information to my boss, she would actually do some follow up with the specific departments whose negative reviews have some common themes, and would encourage improvements for those managers/teams. Or, she could pass it on to HR, who would then know that she’s aware of them and then maybe they would actually try doing something to improve the situation outlined in the reviews.

    3. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      You could, but since this impacts your employer’s reputation there’s a high chance they won’t take it well and try to find the author(s). I’ve been in a similar situation in the past, and in the end I decided to only tell my coworkers, who in the end added more negative reviews.. because any candidate (even the bad ones) deserve at least to know what they could be signing form.

  44. Parking Gripe*

    Is it unreasonable that this really, really annoys me? Would you say something?

    My company is bursting at the seams. We’re in a decades-old building, we’ve grown exponentially, and the search for a new site is ongoing. The parking lot is so crammed that people who start after 8:00 have to park on the grass (there is no street parking here, it’s a semi-rural industrial park with winding country roads that have no shoulder). Multiple people here have side gigs doing lawn service, and they are commuting in their F250s with an oversized trailer attached, crammed full of mowers/weed eaters/etc. I don’t think it’s appropriate to take up two spots for one vehicle when the parking situation already resembles a poorly-planned music festival. I think they should be made to leave the trailers at home. Yes/no?

    4. solarpc*

      Are they taking up a parking space in a parking lot? Or just the street? If its the street, then there’s not much to be done, they are free to park there. We have a similar issue at my work and hate all the big trucks half the people here drive but it is what it is.

    5. MatKnifeNinja*

      The elementary school by me allows no commerical vehicle parking. The F250s would be okay, but the big trailer would make it commerical.

      We were told the reason is the parking lot was made to handle passenger car loads, not commercial vehicles. My friend worked as a lunch assistant and was told not to drive her husband’s truck with his landscape trailer to school.

      So it was repairing the black top more than no parking that got the truck’s and trailers banned.

  45. Seifer*

    Might be going to Portland in a couple of weeks for a conference!!! Is it bad that there are some tattoo artists that I’m thinking of stopping by to see during the down time. …Asking for a friend.

    And then news on the fake promotion: I’m trying to time it around the time of reviews, if my grandboss wants to play, I’ll play. But review time is a very convenient time to change my title and pay. And then my coworker told me that if the grandboss gives me a crap raise (lower than entry level for the new title) I should tell him thanks, but I saw that entry level is $X, what else can I do to get to this point since I’ve hit all the development goals you outlined for me already? I freaking love this coworker, she’s like a mentor to me even though we’re not in the same department. Thanks to everyone that told me he was being weird/commiserating with me last week!

    1. Banana Bread Breakfast*

      Your downtime is yours on work travel. I’ve used mine to try out restaurants, check out museums, even go on a hike when we were in the Appalachia region! As long as you’re not skirting any work responsibilities to do it, I see no issue with checking them out. Enjoy!

    2. Moray*

      As long as you don’t show up to a work event with saniderm wrapping somewhere visible, you should be fine. :)

    3. EA in CA*

      As long as it’s not affecting the main reason why you are there, who cares what you do on your downtime.

  46. Thin Skin*

    I’m relatively inexperienced and have never really stayed with a company for more than two years. With my current company, I’m getting there, and after transferring to a team with higher visibility, I’m getting the sense that people are talking about me, and not in a good way. There was a brief period where I decided to be positive and use this as an opportunity to grow thicker skin, but lately it’s really getting to me and it literally kept me awake last night.

    Should I stick it out? At this point I feel that people already know about my reputation, that even if I transferred to a team that’s not as under a microscope as this one, I just won’t be able to shake it off. If I did make a mistake, is there any chance for me to start over? Or is my best bet is just to move to another company?

    1. Kathleen_A*

      Well…assuming your feeling is accurate, what do you think they’re saying about you? And is it accurate or do they at least have a point?

      Because if they have a point, the thing to do is to correct whatever the problem is. It is possible, though not easy, to change people’s minds by changing your behavior.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Yeah, growing a thick skin means:

        a) learning to take constructive criticism and use it, without letting hurt ego/feelings derail your progress, plus

        b) learning to put other people’s opinions in perspective, and assess their value based on whether they are relevant, or just sniping, and

        c) learning to separate your own emotions and sense of self from other people’s emotions or criticism.

        If you feel that real errors in judgment or performance are dogging your reputation, don’t ignore them. Go to point a) and use that as motivation to level up your work skills. If you just change jobs every time you mess up, you will wind up in worse & worse jobs, with fewer options each time. Prove you can recover and turn it around.

        If people are just sniping and being critical out of pettiness, but your manager is happy with your work, then try different ways of dealing with the petty people before you jump ship. And letting irrelevant opinions slide off is part of changing that dynamic.

        If you’re dealing with negative fallout from an unpopular but necessary choice, work on allowing others the same right to have feelings that you do, in their own space (not inside *your* head). They may have good reason for being upset, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you did something wrong, and there is nothing you have to do about it except keep doing your work.

    2. Alternative Person*

      I hear you. Growing a thicker skin sucks.

      First thing, I would check in with your manager/a peer you trust and see if there’s anything you need to be doing/could improve upon/should be aware of.

      Second, replace ‘they’re talking about me in a bad way’ with ‘they’re noticing my fabulous wrap/my cute hair style/the fact that I’m the newbie/etc.

      Finally, and this was and is the hard part for me, try not to worry about what’s past and focus on what you can do now. My rep at my current regular job is not great with a certain section of the staff but I focus on doing my job well, being (mostly) pleasant (someone bapped me in the face with a file yesterday, I’m not perfect) and generally showing as much as I can that I know what I’m doing. It for the most part keeps the doubters quiet and the more reasonable section of staff onside.

      As to whether you should change jobs, I can’t say. If there is a bunch of other toxic nonsense going on, certainly. But this could also be a case of being the new person in the department and proving that you can hang.

      Hope it works out for you.

    3. Frankie*

      Hard to say without knowing more. What do you suspect they’re talking about? You’re referring to “reputation” as if you have some guess what it’s about. Sometimes that kind of thing can be about working style clashes, or sometimes you’re unknowingly part of political drama and you become a focal point for broader issues in the company.

      You will run into this stuff your entire career, so although I sympathize with the knee-jerk reaction to leave a company (and who knows, might be time for that), if you haven’t investigated what’s going on, I’d start there to see if the situation is about you, more than you, etc. Ask your boss for feedback about your performance, and how you’re working with others! Depending on your relationship, you might be able to address some of your concerns more transparently.

      It also took me quite a long time to differentiate in my career between run-of-the-mill gossip, which will happen everywhere, and sabotage gossip, where people are lying and actively trying to pose barriers to work (or just creating a terrible, negative work environment). Both kinds made me feel awful, but I’ve learned, slowly and over time, to accept the former as part of working with humans and something I don’t need to actively worry about.

      Two cents from a “lying awake” type.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Can you go to your manager (or someone slightly senior who you trust) and basically ask to have a discussion about your work. How are you doing? What can you improve?

      Additionally, and this is not to armchair diagnose, but just as a heads up, I have social anxiety and it has taken my years to stop feeling like I am constantly being judged by others. So, if this is a pervasive feeling that is causing serious life disruption (and lack of sleep is serious, my anxiety often manifests as insomnia) you might want to speak to a therapist or counselor about it. But make sure there’s nothing wrong with your work first.

  47. Aggretsuko*

    I’m totally swamped right now and I do NOT have the time to test computer processes that I literally do not know how to do and thus I don’t know what would be right or “wrong” about them. I know those that actually work on those processes are also swamped and need help (who doesn’t have that situation going on), but it doesn’t help to pass the buck to me if I literally don’t know what I am doing.

    1. Dancing Otter*

      But the person who doesn’t know the process is often the best one to test it!
      There should be a test script. If there isn’t a test script, they aren’t doing testing correctly. The script might give expected results, or you might just be expected to document results for the test organizer to evaluate.
      Follow the test script step by step. If something doesn’t work, it might be the process or it might be the script, but it’s a test fail either way. Someone who knows the process would be tempted to correct the script, which would invalidate the test. Or to follow the existing procedure instead of the script, which would also invalidate the test.
      Speaking as someone who has run multiple testing processes, I assure you that testers not knowing the process is an asset.
      Of course, if you don’t know the process and they don’t provide a test script, that’s just a NO out of the gate right there.
      The question of how much you already have on your plate, and where testing should fit into your priorities, is something else entirely. Is your manager telling you to do this, or are other people asking you for help? Talk to your manager about whether he/she wants you to do it, and if so, what you can deprioritize to make time.

  48. Brownie*

    Anyone have ideas or experience handling an older coworker who’s starting to have disorganization/mental issues that negatively affect others’ work?

    He’s getting to/is at retirement age and in the last 2-3 years his mental abilities have been slipping. The end result of this is that he’s now unable to keep track of tasks and information the way he always did, but he won’t change how he works, so things that the whole team relies on are slipping through the cracks when assigned to him. There’s things he taught me to do last year that he can’t remember how to do now and it seems as if he’s having short and long term memory issues. His issues are bad enough and affecting the team so severely that several times this last week I’ve had to go take walks to calm down and one other coworker has actually gotten upset to his face as he dropped the ball on several key projects and everyone else in the team had to scramble to recover/keep things stable.

    My manager and I have had discussions (initiated by the manager) about the impact this coworker is having on the team’s productivity and morale, but my manager doesn’t have any ideas regarding how to handle this, especially since coworker and manager are butting heads more and more frequently as coworker becomes more rigid and less able to keep up with work and changes to said work. It’s to the point now where any feedback from our manager is ignored by my coworker out of hand. Anyone have ideas for how to help deal with this kind of situation, either for me or from a manager point of view?

    1. Allypopx*

      Usually at this point companies start pushing employees towards retirement, gently if possible. Taking tasks away, having conversations about retirement plans including any benefits the company offers, and being clear that the work quality is becoming an issue. If he’s already ignoring her feedback, I think that’s going to have to be a firmer “we can’t keep you in this role unless these issues are addressed” conversation, the same kind you would have with a younger employee.

      This will be HARD. And really it’s on your manager, not on you. For you if you can just find ways to work around him in the short term, I would. That will really depend on your work flow and if the rest of the team will help you do so. But you have to put pressure on your manager to either tactfully manage him out, or fire him.

      1. Brownie*

        I think my manager is going to go look for resources on how to handle this, but he flat out admitted in our meeting that he doesn’t have a clue how to deal with this situation. I’m going to point him in the direction of whatever resources I can find while trying to make it clear that it’s something he has to do, not me.

        I’m trying to find ways of working around my coworker, but every day I end up full of frustrated anger because of his lack of work/inability to do his work and the fact that it falls on me to fix the issues he’s causing. I was supposed to have today off, but instead I have to work because coworker didn’t renew his access to a program (he was emailed several reminders over the last month and had an Outlook calendar reminder as well) and that means I have to be here in case that program needs attention since everyone else but me and him are out sick/vacation today. It’s like constant sandpaper and all my patience is worn away at this point.

    2. Goldfinch*

      My department forces people into retirement when this happens, but in our case it’s a safety issue. (We create tech that supports industrial machinery.)

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I very sadly witnessed this for a single, 50ish year old woman with early onset Alzheimer’s. I mention the single part because she wanted to keep her job for benefits and pay and to reach full retirement. But it wasn’t possible for her to perform her job any longer. New technology like outlook and calendar invites tripped her up. She was managed out of her federal government through a PIP or something like it – documenting her inability to perform her job duties. You need management to agree to do it. And honestly one of the new deputy’s job was to handle that because no one else wanted to do it even if higher management could see it needed to be.

      You can do it as a peer. Your manager has to start documenting all of this to prepare to force him into retirement/fire him. If your manager’s bosses don’t back him up there’s not much to do but build the paper trail.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        You CAN’T do it as a peer. Your manager has to treat it like anyone else who can’t do the job and is ignoring guidance and not just because you think it’s caused a medical issue.

        1. Brownie*

          Yeah, that’s part of why my manager talked to me. He’s trying to get concrete examples of what’s going on instead of the generalized “he’s not doing his job” complaints that he’s been getting. The conversation ended up with me asking him for help on how to deal with the coworker and my manager flat out admitting that he doesn’t know what to do and did I have any ideas or know of any resources he could use? Pretty sure he’s asking like that because I read AAM so much and have used so much of what I’ve learned here at work that he thinks I know more about managing people than I actually do.

    4. Garland Not Andrews*

      The local (state, whatever) commission or council on aging may have resources. Please check with them.

      1. Brownie*

        Oh, that’s a wonderful idea! I’ll go check and see if they have anything I can send to my manager.

    5. Hex Code*

      The key point for your manager will be to focus on on whether or not he can/is willing to do the job and not on any possible or unknown medical issues. Age might be an explanation but it’s not an excuse. In the instance you said above, any manager of someone any age would be fully justified to say, “Members of your team had to step in to fix this thing that you didn’t to despite reminders. What happened?” Followed by, “Staying on top of XYZ things is a key part of this job. That may mean this role isn’t a good fit.”

    6. Dancing Otter*

      Simple age shouldn’t be causing the problems you describe. Cognitive decline varies by age, and is a separate issue than just dates on a calendar. Also, some medications can cause cognitive issues. Your coworker really ought to get a thorough medical work-up, but I don’t know how the company can force him to do so. Strongly suggest, but not force.
      If it’s caused by his medication, perhaps all that’s needed is a change in prescriptions, and everything will improve. If it’s another, treatable, medical condition, (poor oxygenation or low blood sugar or who knows what), maybe he will be fine with treatment.
      If it’s not treatable, mightn’t this be covered by disability insurance? If he’s trying to hang on until full retirement age, it seems as though this alternative could be his best option while getting the human spanner out of your works.
      His manager, in conjunction with HR, is the best person to have the conversation with him. Definitely have a witness, either from HR or a grand-boss or both, since you say he ignores the manager’s feedback. Refusal to take direction is a firing offense in itself, but they should offer the treatment or disability options for him to choose.

    7. Sandman*

      This describes one of my Board members to a T and it is incredibly difficult. No advice, just commiseration.

    8. ThursdaysGeek*

      Here’s how not to do it: I had a co-worker who started slurring his words, his affect was odd. The company fired him. So then he didn’t have any health insurance, as he found out he had ALS, affecting his vocal chords first. He lost the ability to speak shortly after he was let go.

      Pushing him towards retirement, knowing that he may not have the finances to retire, is still probably the only way.

    9. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Oh I have worked places where this happened! In one case, the woman had been with us for 30 years (part-time) and her cognitive slides got to the point where she lost her full time professional job, and was effectively living through doing odd jobs and working part-time shifts with us.

      From the time we noticed something was “off” about her, to the time she actually retired, four years passed, and we’d been having lots of “What do we do about Karen?” talks in private for two or so years. She was a kind person and everyone quietly took on the duties of supporting her, but ultimately it was untenable for safety reasons, and the difficult conversation had to happen.

      The other place I worked where we had this happen, the person whose cognitive abilities were slipping started getting angry and rigid, yelling at people and refusing to follow basic directions. The situation was just as sad, but it’s much easier to justify terminating someone who’s screaming and harassing people.e

    10. Baru Cormorant*

      One thing my company does is have older employees train younger or contract workers on basic processes. Basically farming them out to simpler and simpler work and taking advantage of their expertise and experience. And nudging them towards retirement.

  49. Long time lurker*

    I’ve been thinking of getting into machine learning. Any tips? Is it difficult to do without a degree in ML? I’m finding it really interesting so I’m wondering if I could break into the field with a lot of self-study and a strong portfolio. I have a bachelors in physics.

    1. Nicki Name*

      Some kind of training in statistics would help, though I assume you’ve got that with the physics degree. Some understanding of human biases so that you can understand how they can get replicated in your models would be great, though as far as I can tell very few companies bother to look for that.

      Lots of people come to ML with computer science degrees, so you don’t need a degree in ML specifically.

    2. Hmm*

      From my experience, you either need to be a Software Developer or some kind of Data Scientist to get a job in ML.
      I worked in a team that did ML, but wasn’t directly involved in it myself.
      People had degrees in Computer Science or Computational Linguistics.

  50. carrie heffernan*

    Was there an update from the commenter a couple weeks ago who got an unsolicited d*ck pick from her coworker and HR did nothing?

  51. Gaia*

    I’ve been at my job for about 4 months now and more and more I’m being given tasks radically different than my job. It is a smaller non-profit so I understand the need to jump in to help sometimes but I have real concerns this is taking over my job. I am a professional in the data field and I’m being asked to take over administrative work like invoicing and scheduling. The person that I replaced was more of an administrative role but I was very clear coming in that I did not want to pick up those tasks.

    Today I met with my boss, grand-boss, and great-grand boss. My boss and great-grand boss seem to support my concerns but grand-boss is just a bit oblivious. She has a direct report that is floundering and missing a lot of deadlines and so some of his admin work is not getting completed. The solution in her eyes is to have me do it because I rely on the work being done.

    I was very upfront in the meeting that while I will help out short term, it should not and cannot be the long term (or even medium term) solution. I don’t want that job and I won’t be satisfied PLUS my other work will not get the attention it needs (to say nothing of the fact that they’d be wildly overpaying me for the work I would be doing).

    Help/support/advise?

    1. WellRed*

      Support. I’d be afraid this will not end. It’s not like the workload is temporarily nutso, just that one person isn’t up to the job. The solution is to get that person doing their job, not give their job to someone else.

      1. Gaia*

        Agreed. And I was very clear that this is exactly my concern. I know myself well enough that if given the tasks I’ll do them and do them well – and then the org is very likely to forget we have a bigger issue.

    2. Frankie*

      Well, this happened to me in a field that operated very similarly to a non-profit (we work long hours and help out and wear many hats for little money!!). It only stopped when I left, tbh. The story in my grandboss’ head, and that she repeated to all of us, was “we all signed up for this,” even though I specifically did not.

      At the end of the day, you’ve been clear, you know your needs. If this doesn’t change after the short term, you will likely need to leave.

      Is there language you could use about the fact that roles shouldn’t be muddled/blended just because one person can’t hold up their end of the job? The root of the problem is that that person isn’t doing their job, so the problem needs to be addressed there, as opposed to just moving the work elsewhere.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        Is there any chance this could cause internal controls / segregation of duties issues? (You mentioned invoicing,) That would be an inarguable reason not to have you doing his work.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Sounds like you did well in expressing your concerns. AAM has a great response for you to use: “I can cover 2 of 3 job duties, but I can’t do all 3. What do you want me to let slide?”
      I appreciate your concern about doing work you don’t want to do long term. So you might have to talk to your boss again, if it goes on too long. I hope they get the admin job duties resolved soon.

    4. M*

      Set and communicate a deadline. “I can pick up X, Y and Z admin tasks as emergency cover, but I’m going to need to deprioritise tasks A, B and C while I’m doing that in order to make the time. I believe I can make that work for [time period], but after then we’d start to see real problems as a result of me not having time for my other work. Can we fix [date] as the end point for me covering this work? That gives us time to find a solution that will work long-term if Fergus isn’t able to get his deadlines under control.” Given your boss gets that there’s a problem, I’d run this by her first, and agree on your proposed deadline – this may even be best coming from her in a more “I can lend you X hours of Sansa’s time, for the next Y weeks, and after that I need her back on her projects” form.

      1. M*

        The point here is: everyone involved knows you don’t think you can do this longterm. (The fact that your great-grand-boss gets it is particularly important.) But if there’s no fixed deadline, you’ll just get stuck in “just another week” limbo indefinitely, so you need a fixed date to point to that makes it someone else’s problem after that date. Get that set in stone, or no-one but you will ever put the effort in to find a solution that works long term.

  52. DC Weekend*

    How much time do people spend getting themselves settled at work in the morning? I think I’m definitely on the higher end (~20 minutes), so I’m curious about other’s habits. My usual routine involves unpacking my commuting bag, putting my lunch away, heating up breakfast, filling my water cup, changing shoes, and having a quick conversation with a friend/colleague.

    1. Jamie*

      Probably 5-10 minutes. I put my lunch in the fridge, go to the ladies room, and get my glasses out of my purse.

    2. Allypopx*

      Put stuff away, eat breakfast, quick good mornings, check AAM…10-15 minutes? Depends on the morning, depends on if I know I’m coming into something I have to address immediately, depends on how sleepy I am.

    3. Nessun*

      5-10 minutes, but I spread it out: come in, backpack off, change shoes, remove coat/hoodie, then computer on and email up. Once I’ve checked there are no fires to put out, go put the kettle on and make a cuppa, say hi to anyone in the office (I arrive early), and quick check a few websites while the tea brews.

    4. Emily S.*

      I spend about 15-20 minutes. I always make a cup of tea before starting work, and it’s nice to have time to chill out before the day starts.

      Also, I find that by driving in earlier, I can avoid a lot of traffic in the morning.

    5. Frustrated In DC*

      Probably about 10 minutes, tops? I sign in, open Outlook, and while that is opening I go to the other side of the office to make my first cup of coffee (and if I brought food for lunch, put it away). Sometimes someone will chat with me to/from there, but usually 10 minutes is a long time for me.

    6. Alternative Person*

      5 minutes, drop bag/coat, store lunch, fix coffee and water, get glasses/pen/diary out, get started.

      I deliberately front-load my day because I usually need to get stuff printed/fix up a document/etc. then I tend to relax in the slower periods later.

    7. Lily in NYC*

      I’m probably around 20 minutes as well. I don’t feel guilty about it – no one cares and I rarely take a lunch break so it all works out in the end. I am lucky that I have a boss who is easygoing about this stuff as long as we get our work done.

    8. Amber Rose*

      5-10 I guess. Put my stuff down, turn on my computer, while it loads up I put my lunch in the fridge. Get back, log in to my everything, and get going.

    9. Picard*

      MAYBE 5 minutes? I come in, put my purse down and log in. Sometimes if I need to, I take my lunch to the kitchen fridge but its all the way across the building from my office so most times I dont bother. Its packed in a cooler with ice anyway so… I’m usually the first one here so no one to talk to and I bring my water bottle with me/dont drink coffee or tea. I dont have a commuter bag or need to change my shoes since I drove to work.

      1. Perfectly Cromulent Name*

        10 to 15ish minutes, depending on the day. I get in, drop my lunch off at the fridge, fill my electric kettle with water, log in to my computer and take a quick glance at my email to see if I need to re-prioritize the to do list I wrote the night before, and chat with the admin who comes in at the same time I do.

    11. Grapey*

      Probably fewer than 5 mins? I say hello walking by other offices to my desk, then I put my bag/purse down, start my computer, grab my water bottle, walk to the kitchen to fill it and put away my lunch, walk back and start working.

      I read emails on the bus to know if there’s any pressing situation to get running on. I eat breakfast at home or on the walk to the bus stop, and I definitely don’t change shoes.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      At Exjob:
      Put stuff away, took my lunchbox to the break room, and checked my email. Dealt with any tasks that were new or urgent. About an hour in, I made breakfast/tea and ate at my desk while working (or reading AAM, if I were caught up).

      When I was on the front desk at OldExjob, I didn’t take a breakfast break. I put my lunch away and got right to work. My coffee had barely kicked in and I had to be nice to all these crabby architects right off. I don’t want to be on the front desk anymore ever.

    13. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I have a part-time WFH/part-time office schedule, so I’m usually working from home for an hour or two before I get to the office. During that morning home time, it’s probably 75% work/25% personal getting ready stuff (I’m salaried so I don’t have to track my hours closely and I’m definitely working more than 40 hours each week), so I’ll do things like start a pot of coffee and then open my email, then take a break to pour a cup of coffee and get breakfast started before getting more work done while breakfast is in the oven and so forth. Then, after breakfast, I’ll pack up and head into the office. I’ve already gotten all of my morning breakfast and coffee things dealt with before I leave the house with this system, although they are mostly happening while I’m working.

      When I actually get to the office, it’s generally less than 5 minutes of putting my purse away, hanging up my coat, and grabbing my mail, and sometimes I don’t even really get a chance to sit down before someone’s talking to me about something I need to deal with right away. I try not to schedule meetings that will start with less than 15 minutes cushion after my arrival time when I can, though. (There have been days when I’ve had meetings scheduled right at my arrival time, which I can deal with but I prefer to have enough time to at least put my stuff away rather than take my purse and coat with me to the meeting.)

    14. fhqwhgads*

      I don’t have a commute anymore, but when I did the answer to this would’ve been less than five minutes.

    15. Fortitude Jones*

      When I worked in an office, it was usually 30 minutes. I’d put my bags away, wait for the hot water on our water machine to boil for my morning cup of tea (and it usually took 5-10 minutes – god, I hated that slow ass machine), eat my breakfast while checking email and reading this site, and then I’d get to work.

      Now that I work from home? It’s still 30 minutes, lol. Sometimes 40 if I’m making breakfast from scratch.

    16. Calindy*

      My mornings start off right away w/ putting coat away, change shoes, start up my computer. While the computer loads up, I’ll start my coffee, clean & sanitize my desk & other work surfaces, sanitize the pens I have for clients to use, etc.

      Once the computer has opened, I log onto our virtual computer system and then skype. First thing I do is check my email then I check my calendar, pull the client files for anyone I have scheduled that day to review next steps & make sure I have any information I need to have prepped for that days meeting.

      I’m one of the first few in the office as I chose to start/leave 30 minutes earlier and often do the ‘chat thing’ with anyone riding up in the elevator to the office and then that’s out of the way.

    17. Lobsterp0t*

      15 minutes including locking my bike, getting into the office, setting up everything I need in the interview room (laptop, DRAGON and headset, marking up the question packs and pens, timer, and table/chairs), getting and eating breakfast (usually cereal or yoghurt/fruit), and setting up another room for 5-6 candidates to do a group task.

      So it’s a mix of settling myself and setting up my workstations/areas.

  53. Archivist*

    Our library director is scheduling one-on-ones with all staff in the library. The meetings are an agenda-less opportunity for staff to talk about whatever they want. The director is three levels up from me and not involved or familiar with the day-to-day of my work. I’m having trouble thinking of what sort of topics would be best brought up with someone at the director’s level, rather than my department head or division head. Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions about the type of issues or topics that would be good to bring up in a meeting like this?

    1. WellRed*

      We actually just did this with our new CEO. Anything from workflow environments to workload to suggestions for employee perks and everything in between was fair game.

  54. liz*

    hi all! I’m looking for a bag I can bring to work that could double as a gym bag – I currently carry a large purse, but not quite large enough for sneakers. Anyone else have a good one they’d recommend? (Ideally not a backpack or crazy expensive but if it’s good quality I’ll pay more for it.)

    1. Triumphant Fox*

      I love my Lo & Sons OMG bag. Has a section for shoes and a generous laptop sleeve. I use it every day and it was originally designed as a gym bag. They have really good sales a few times a year, so if you can wait (I got mine around Christmas), I’d recommend seeing when it’s 40% off.

      1. EA in CA*

        I second Lo & Sons OMG bag. I just got one from Poshmark two weeks ago and it’s been a godsend. So many organization pockets, sturdily built, laptop sleeve, and shoe pocket. Plus it doesn’t look a like a gym bag.

    2. Nessun*

      I have a Thule backpack which has a separate space for shoes, as well as storage for tablet/laptop and random items. I use it more than a purse, because I can fit my lunch pack in it too. I wear it as a backpack, but it came with a long strap and has hooks specifically so it can be worn over the shoulder or cross-body, too.

  55. Allypopx*

    Question about degree specializations: I’m working on my MBA and was planning on specializing in nonprofit management, but the program has changed so that the specialization is really focused on healthcare, which is not the sector I work in, and there’s not really a way for me to do the “official” specialization that way, but I can piecemeal coursework the same educational benefits I would have gotten from the old program.

    How would I indicate on my resume that I did study nonprofit management in grad school even though I don’t have the line on my degree that would be easily recognized and verified by the university?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My MBA had an official concentration. My MPA didn’t have an official concentration, but all my research work was done in the areas of healthcare policy analysis, so I have my masterses listed as

      MBA (concentration in health economics and policy)
      MPA (research focus in healthcare policy analysis)

  57. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

    Next level ridiculous. We offered a job to a woman, pending reference checks. So far so normal, right? Three of her former companies are asking that we or she pay $39-$45 to give a reference/confirm her dates of employment!! Can you believe this???? What a way to stick it to former employees. We aren’t sure what to do because we are grant funded and this wouldn’t be an allowable expense on any of our grants, and we certainly don’t want her to pay. And our HR insists on getting this information from the corporate HR offices because for some reason what her managers say isn’t good enough. Grrrrr!

    1. fposte*

      That’s really horrible. I hope that doesn’t catch on. While I wouldn’t want the applicant to have to pay, it sounds like a situation whether either she does or she doesn’t have a crack at the job, sadly.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        In this case I am going to argue that our HR department is being ridiculous and, since we have confirmed her employment with her managers at these companies we waive the HR confirmation. Or our HR can pay it if they think it is so danged necessary. This hill is worth dying on

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        Oh hell yes and reassured her that she will definitely not have to pay it. As for the over-ruling, we are a quasi-civil service organization (it’s a weird and complicated set up that I don’t even fully understand) so we have really, really Byzantine, really, really rigid hiring processes that don’t handle the unexpected or exceptions very well.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        Hell no! I’m going to burn some political capital and get HR to get over not having the employment date verification from the corporate HR departments. Seriously, I’m the hiring manager. I talked to her direct managers. They confirmed she worked there. Do we seriously need a 2nd verification? No. This is dumb and I am willing to die on this hill.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      Three of the companies are asking this! It would be outrageous to find a single company doing this. Are you sure the numbers and companies are real, because it is so wild that I would think this is a scam and it’s just a fake reference company.
      My last job required my IRS docs to prove employment. It was a pain to gather them from the IRS website, but it would confirm employment.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yeah, that also sounds like a scam to me. I have never heard of anything so outrageous. I’ve heard of paying for transcripts, but never for work references.

      2. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        Definitely real. Think one major bank, one major credit card company, and a well known retail brokerage firm whose ads you see everywhere.

        I am going to suggest the IRS route to our HR department who is the bigger impediment since their process is the hang up. I get not being flexible on some things, but this is getting ridiculous.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        These are well known companies in the financial sector. Apparently this is a thing and they are surprised that we are surprised. I wonder if for-profit folks in the same sector usually pay it?

          1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

            Me too. And if this is a new thing I am going to push for our HR to change their policy. We have her employment with these companies confirmed because we talked to her references and managers. This whole needing the other HR department to confirm is a stupid waste of time (yes I am a bit salty)

    7. MMB*

      I ran into this with a well know grocery store chain and one other company as well. When I called the manager at the grocery store directly he said he had no idea that people are being charged for that information! It made confirming references extremely difficult.

    9. LUKE I AM YOUR INTERNET COMMENTER*

      I kind of wonder if that is a red flag about the applicant.

      Sure, it could be that her former employer sucks. But request for payment to confirm employment is so bizarre that it raises the possibility of them using this as an excuse (albeit a bad one) to avoid giving a reference or if they’re doing this to give their ex employee the middle finger after dealing with crappy behaviour on her part.

      Not saying this is justified or okay in any way. But I’ve definitely fantasized about giving ex employees a horrible reference outlining how they called in sick to go to Disneyland, bullied other employees, watched porn at work, etc.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, but three different companies? Wouldn’t it be easier to just give her a noncommittal reference? Or decline entirely?
        OP said in follow-up comments that all three companies are in roughly the same field; I’m inclined to think this is some new bizarre trend.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Same. It’s so weird. I’ve never heard of this, and I know people who work in the financial sector.

    10. just another reader*

      I’m pretty sure what’s happening is that the 3 companies (all financial? or handling financial info?) have out-sourced their pay/HR functions, and those companies are making money by charging for employment verification. This is b.s., especially since it’s likely the ONLY info they will provide is hire/termination dates and if she is rehireable, no actual review of her work or info of much use to a hiring manager. Next level annoying.

  58. Conjunction Junction*

    I work in education in a support staff role. My coworkers and others around me are very nice and professional, but some of the paraprofessionals that work in the district are just plain rude. I’ve been hung up on, snapped at, sworn at, etc. They are just nasty. This is all within 2 months of the job! According to my coworkers, this is par for the course.

    For those in education, is this normal? Does this happen to you as well? Any advice or stories are greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    1. Jellyfish*

      That’s rough; I’m sorry you’re dealing with rude people.
      This isn’t advice, but I can share a somewhat related anecdote. In a previous support staff role, I also had to regularly deal with someone who was just rude. She had quite a reputation, and everyone else kinda worked around her.

      One day, I needed something that I could only get from her, and she was being particularly difficult. I finally snapped and said something to the effect of, “Hey! I don’t do this stuff everyday, and I don’t know it all works! It’s not my job to know how it works. That’s why I’m asking you – because you do know, and I need your help. Can you work with me here? Then I’ll be out of your hair and we’ll both be happier!”

      She was silent for a moment, and then we got my stuff sorted with both of us acting very professionally neutral. I figured it wasn’t my best moment, but professionally neutral was a vast improvement and I got what I needed. Every time I talked to her after that though, she was genuinely friendly. It wasn’t in a saccharine, sarcastic way – her friendliness still involved grumping about the weather or something, but I always wondered if my snapping reminded her that I was a real person too.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I had to do this with the Coworker from Hell; she mellowed out a bit after I stood up to her snottiness and attacks. Unfortunately, it didn’t last, but I didn’t stay at that job long either, thank goodness.

      2. Gatomon*

        I’ve had a few similar experiences. My theory is that some people are difficult just to see who dares to throw it back at them or call them out, and only if you dare to do it will you be judged their equal.

    2. RobotWithHumanHair*

      I worked in a support role in higher ed for 17 years and…yep, pretty par for the course. What made it worse was that when I started working there, I was on the younger side (started at 20), so that just made it even easier for faculty, etc. to abuse me.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Wow. The Paras in my home district are almost without exception lovely people. Why do they not get reported for (!!!) swearing at teachers and support staff?

    4. lnelson in Tysons*

      I think that there is one bad apple almost every where. And one than one is the company is large enough. Not unique to education.

      Will not mention the name to protect the guilty. One professor where I worked was truly full of himself. Just because you have a paper published does not mean the universe circles around you (I think that he was a professor in astronomy) Anywho, I was support in the benefits department and one day, I get a call from “someone” and he is yelling at me because I did not inform him that he could increase his 401k withholdings. My other encounter which him was during open enrollment and he thought himself to important to go online to elect his benefits, so he came to the benefits department threw a blank enrollment form at me and told me to do it for him. I did stand my grounds, basically telling him if I did that I would be fired and I wasn’t willing to be fired for this.

    5. just a random teacher*

      Depending on where you live, it may be really hard to hire people into those para jobs. They usually don’t pay well, aren’t quite full time, and you’re often asked to do pretty impossible things. I’ve worked places where we just couldn’t keep paras around, so it took things like “taking the student you are supposed to be walking to class to the gym to play basketball instead on a regular basis” to get someone fired. This was in a pretty rough high school in a large city, so there were lots of other part and full time jobs available.

      In smaller towns, it’s mostly been former parent volunteers who took part time jobs in the school district once their kids hit middle school, and they tend to be much easier to deal with.

  59. LabLady*

    I had a weird interview thing come up this week. O got a call from the company’s HR, and chatted for a few minutes about the position. He then said (what I believe, he said) he’d want to do a phone interview Monday at 3:30. Cool.

    Monday rolls around 3:35, no call. So I call him. He’s sounds annoyed and confused and agrees to reschedule for tomorrow because he’s about to walk out the door. I’m baffled.

    Tuesday, same thing. No call by 3:35. I call him. Turns out HE WANTED AN IN PERSON INTERVIEW. Never once did he say that! And even if he hadn’t, he never mentioned anything about coming on-site, parking, etc. that would trigger my brain to say, oh this is in person.

    I’m mortified and just declined to go further in the interview process. It’s not too bad because I didn’t think they could match my current salary, but demoralizing none the less.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Don’t feel bad, feel empowered! You dodged a bullet with that one! And luckily you found out how disorganized and uncommunicative the company was without going through any more of their process.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Honestly it sounds like you dodged a bullet. He said he wanted a phone interview and then got mad you didn’t show up in person? Ugh no thanks.

      I wouldn’t feel embarrassed at all, this is totally on him.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Plus, if he were about to walk out the door at 3:35 when he was expecting to do an interview at 3:30, whether in-person or phone, dude’s got all sorts of extra mixed messages going on. Why would he bail because he’s leaving when it’s 5 minutes after they were going to start?

    4. Jellyfish*

      If he couldn’t express that he expected you to show up when you first called him on Monday, that’s completely on him.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Bullet dodged.
      “If you want to know where your interview is, you can just read my mind.”
      After you are employed:
      “If you want to know what your job is today, you can just read my mind.”

      You don’t need this bs in your life.

  60. Triumphant Fox*

    We have a new hire joining and our onboarding process is…nonexistent? What did you appreciate about past onboarding processes? What do you wish you had been told sooner? How do you like to learn a new role when you’re not taking the place of a predecessor?

    1. Nowhereland*

      Google “onboarding schedule” and filter by PDFs and .docs. You’ll get some ideas. At the very least, I think employees appreciate a concrete schedule for their first week of work…not like every minute of every day has to be planned, but it gives them a general idea of when they should be where, and also times for lunches and breaks.

    2. Carbovore*

      There’s the obvious stuff–getting all the paperwork done for payroll and benefits, being shown your new office/desk, computer, phone, and where to go if those aren’t working, etc. Being introduced to your new colleagues in the office. Getting logins and access to things you’ll need to do your work.

      Outside of those, there were a couple things I enjoyed when I was onboarded in some previous jobs. One job gave me my first week a schedule of meetings I needed to have with people (I work in higher ed. and my role at the time had me interacting with people at lots of levels–college level, division level, university level, etc.) so these were great to have to meet that people I wouldn’t necessarily see day to day but would be interacting with a lot via phone or email. It also was just really helpful in networking and meeting people who would be helpful to me in my role. Later on, this division also employed a “work buddy/mentor” program as well that paired new hires with seasoned employees in the division to help them navigate things and have an objective ear outside of their immediate coworkers.

      Personally, I’ve always appreciated a lot of structure so in my current job, I would have liked it better if it hadn’t been such a trial by fire (I came on board after months of a previous employee having left and so there was lots of catch-up work and things to fix) and if I’d had a list and a very structured, “Here’s the task we’re going to start you with and here’s how it works beginning to end.” Jumping into processes and work in the middle or at the end can be really confusing stressful.

    4. On Hold*

      I just joined a small team and really appreciated having 15 minute 1-on-1 meetings on the first day with my new colleagues was very pleasant. There wasn’t any kind of agenda, just whatever we wanted to chat about.

    5. Dancing Otter*

      One thing that really helps: start the paperwork for IT before they arrive. You want them to have a computer and all the sign-on information on their first day, and some IT departments seem to need a lot of lead time for that stuff. If there are forms the employee has to sign, agree not to hand over the credentials until everything is signed, but have those credentials ready.
      Nothing is more demoralizing than to be all excited to start a new job and not be able to do ANYTHING because you can’t access the systems you need for several days.
      If there are proprietary or highly customized programs they will need to use, locate the manuals or procedure documentation so you can give it to them right away: a little light reading between meetings with HR, or while waiting for IT. If there is online training they need to take, set up their access, and provide that information, too.
      Don’t forget instructions for setting up their voicemail and email. One client/project, I never did get voicemail through their system, just had to give everyone my personal cell number. A company phone directory and org chart is another must-have.
      You don’t need to schedule every minute of their first few days, but be sure there’s something to keep them busy. Maybe the direct manager can’t meet with them to outline tasks right away, but you don’t want them sitting twiddling their thumbs wondering why they’re even there.

  61. Moray*

    I have a coworker who is a native English speaker but a very poor writer. (Misspellings, bad capitalization, all around poor grammar). Looking at his writing, you could believe it came straight from Google translate. Mostly what he writes is quietly rewritten by me or someone else in the department before it sees the light of day, and he performs well in other ways.

    The issue: all-staff emails. We all need to send quick reminders or requests from the general department mailbox every now and then, and he does it more than most. It would feel like picking on him to say “ask someone else to proofread a three sentence update that’s only read internally, or have someone else write it for you” but when it comes from the department as a whole and goes to 150+ people it makes me cringe. The last email was four sentences long and had about eight errors (as well as an unintended somewhat impolite tone) and I want to tell people “that wasn’t me!”

    Do I just need to get over it?

    1. fposte*

      What does your manager say about these emails? If she doesn’t want to do anything, then yes, you probably just have to get over it, but it may be that she’s not aware this is one particular person. I don’t think this is a big enough issue to warrant being particularly delicate–you can just say “Jane, Bob’s more of a [whatever we do] than a writer, and his emails sometimes have preventable errors. Would you want those looked over by somebody else first or is this a situation where it’s fine as it is?”

      1. Moray*

        Our manager is definitely aware, but he has gotten so frustrated over the years that he does his best to ignore Coworker’s writing to preserve his own sanity.

        It’s a sore spot that he has never been able to 1) help Coworker develop even slightly better writing skills, or 2) convince Coworker that his errors are actually a problem. (Coworker rolls his eyes a lot whenever something he’s written needs to be proofread–“I guess I’m supposed to have one of you guys look this over”–and showing him our extensive edits is met with complete indifference).

        Executives also send all-staff emails from their personal email, when the rest of us use the shared department account, so Boss isn’t as linked to them. Fragile egos all around, I guess–I should probably just try to get over mine.

        1. Allypopx*

          THAT’s a problem. This is something he’s repeatedly gotten coaching on, gotten told is a problem, and he is still reacting with attitude and indifference. That might be because he’s self-conscious and it’s a defensive reaction, or he might actually be indifferent, I can’t tell from here. But that’s an indicator of something bigger. Work ethic, complete blindness to how important communication can be and the bearing it can have on a business or a reputation, disrespect for your boss – I’m not sure what the issue is. But as a manager that’s what I would focus on and try to address, and you’re not wrong to flag it as a real problem.

        2. Filosofickle*

          I would have a very hard time getting over it — even more difficult would be getting over that Coworker doesn’t care and Boss lets it slide. Baffling! But it sounds like you may have to let it go for your sanity, too.

          I have a friend who makes errors and sometimes writes in ways I consider to be unprofessional in her business blog and social media posts. It’s not nearly as bad as what you describe, but it does bother me and prevents me from promoting her posts and services. But I’ve never told her because she’s never asked for my feedback on her materials. (Even though part of me wonders if I should. Should she know this is why I never share her stuff with my colleagues, who might be interested in her services?)

    2. Nicki Name*

      If it’s a matter of communications needing to be sent for work reasons and the professional relationship between your department and the rest of the company, you shouldn’t just get over it.

      Are these reminders or requests about a small, standard list of topics? Could you maybe make templates that people can fill out with the necessary details? (E.g., “Our monthly llama grooming stall maintenance is coming up on ___ from ____ to ____. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact ____________.”)

    3. NicoleK*

      Yes, just get over it. Your coworker knows it wasn’t you. My coworker is also a terrible writer. She writes long, rambling, non sensical emails, and often repeats herself. Thirty percent of the time, I have no idea what she is talking about and can’t make sense of her emails. But it doesn’t bother me. People know she’s a terrible writer and it’s not a reflection on me (maybe a reflection of our Boss cause coworker is basically incompetent, but that’s another story)

    4. Policy Wonk*

      If written communication is part of this person’s job, you need to send him for some training.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        +1000
        School doesn’t always prepare people for communication in the business world.
        Your colleague seems to have poor writing skills in general, but I’ve seen others with the opposite problem. You don’t need formal academic writing to remind people the refrigerator is scheduled to be cleaned out Friday afternoon.

        1. just a random teacher*

          I dunno, my dad’s office’s emails about that always referred to the “unauthorized cold temperature mold experiments” that were being removed from the fridge that Friday, and I think that had a certain charm…

    5. Kathenus*

      I’d suggest that you and others in the department stop rewriting them for him. Just like with any performance issues if others minimize the impact of it by doing the extra work to fix things, there’s less incentive for management to take action.

      Since you mention having to use the shared account, I’d start either a policy (if the manager agrees) or just a personal practice of always signing your name or initials to ones you write (and maybe if a practice not a policy encourage other coworkers to do the same). Then you don’t need to worry about the ‘that wasn’t me’ fear. And other than that, yeah, I’d say get over it because you’re not their manager and the manager doesn’t care enough to act.

    6. AL (the other one)*

      Could this be dyslexia? I had this with an employee once, I kept reviewing and re-reviewing their work with them. Then they casually dropped into conversation that they had dyslexia. After 2+ years of them being in my team this was the first I’d heard of it. I wish I’d know sooner as I would have handled some things differently…

  62. NotMyUsualName*

    I’ve been working at a company for several years. A few years ago they hired a new manager. Since then, the manager has proceeded to hire their friends and former coworkers. Of those friends, some have also been promoted to managers, and in turn hired their friends. Over time and layoffs, most non-friends have left the company. At this time, I think it’s just me and two others who’s left from before this manager was hired.

    To me, all of this feels off. Everyone in the department come from the same background and always agree with the boss about everything. But while I’m starting to feel like this might be a toxic workplace, another part of me wonders if this a completely normal practice for a manager and a part of working in an office? Do I just need to adjust my thinking? Do managers generally hire people they know?

    1. Approval is optional*

      No it’s not normal in a functional office to hire friends. Hiring former coworkers (who are not friends) can make sense – after all you know their work ethic etc – and may not be a problem, though there are times when it will be.

      1. Approval is optional*

        Oops sorry – just noticed I accidentally deleted a sentence when editing: should read ‘to hire friends (or at least not to the extent it’s happening in your office)’.

    2. Mazzy*

      I’d lean more towards “toxic” unless the ones who left were horrible and the friends were higher performers. Also, this is worse in my opinion the higher level the job gets, though others might see the opposite as worse

      1. NotMyUsualName*

        Oh, the ones who are left are definitely the horrible ones. All the people who knew what they were doing and who dared to ask questions are gone.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Occasional this works when a manager had a unique team at a previous job and they bring them all along. I see this in IT, artistic depts, performance improvement, or other niche departments. But these are people who have worked together before, are going into the same roles, and have a proven track record of success.
      Hiring everyone you know into whatever position is just giving handouts to your friends. They will all vouch for each other, all lie for each other, and it’s the formula for corruption.

      1. NotMyUsualName*

        I can definitely see this working in those kind of settings. Unfortunately, this is not one of them.

        I guess I’m mostly worried that this is a common practice, and that I won’t get away from these kind of structures once I leave this place.

    4. LKW*

      Sometimes managers hire people they know from prior working relationships. Good managers don’t hire their social circle. And good managers hire people that will disagree with them, understanding that sometimes the best results come out of professionally executed conflict.

  63. Watermelon M*

    Hello! Thank you to everyone and Alison who gave me great advice and support last week on “Karen” and her weird respect thing. She’s been out for vacation this week, so I took the opportunity to sneak over to my boss and talk to her. I explained (minus the race factor, because my boss historically has not taken that well) that I felt uncomfortable and that I respected Karen but felt it was unnecessary to call her ma’am and Ms. and etc. Well. Although my boss did not react by saying she insist I keep calling Karen ma’am, she essentially said “Look, we all know Karen is a lot but just ignore her. If it doesn’t cause a fight, throw in a couple ma’ams here and there to keep her happy. It’s not fun when Karen raises hell.” Aaaaand that was a defeated Wednesday.

    On another note, I have an interview with another job next week because wow! I can not believe the dynamics of my team. If the interviewer asked why I am trying to leave, can I just say “I feel unsupported and am a bad fit for the work culture (because I have to either placate a testy coworker or treat her with the highest respect as my senior)”?

    1. Mediamaven*

      Thank you for the update. Just focus on getting out of there. The whole situation is BS. Just because someone is a certain way doesn’t mean people should have to deal with that.

    2. Kathleen_A*

      I wouldn’t recommend saying any of that. It’s almost always best to avoid saying anything negative about your current employer, and the reason is that the person interviewing you will have no idea of your employer is the problem or YOU are the problem.

      1. Watermelon M*

        Yeah, you’re right. I think I’m just hurt right now. But I can’t make a fake excuse of looking for new challenges since it’s been almost a year. Perhaps I’ll say that it’s not a good culture fit, but I’m looking for a workplace that values xyz which is why I was interested in this etc.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          Yes, that’s good, or you could spin it positively and say something like, “As described, the job sounded like such an interesting opportunity that I wanted to learn more.” Or something like that. The idea is that instead of saying negative things about your current employer, you instead say nice things about your prospective employer.

          But “culture fit” or “the job has changed significantly since I was hired” – those are good too, because it makes sense and yet you aren’t forcing the interviewers to have to decide if you or your employer are the problem here.

          1. AndersonDarling*

            Ooo, those are good things to say!
            I’ve had good luck with “We made some changes and I don’t like the direction the company is going now. I really enjoy the work I am doing and I’m looking for a company that is a better fit. I think this would be a better match because of ____ and ____ .”
            It’s easy to focus on leaving your job because of the bad things, but you are really leaving because you want something better for yourself. Focus on that part and it will be easier to talk about it, and it will make you feel more positive/optimistic during the interviews.

      1. Watermelon M*

        Yes, we have HR! But I have brought up to him before an incident about insensitive comments around race that happened a few times and he said it was an interpersonal issue that I needed to settle on my own first. After talking to a mentor, I feel like my only options are to write a letter to the chief of staff after I resign about the issues I’ve seen.

        1. WellRed*

          Well there’s the option of being more explicit: “I am the only person Karen asks to call her ma’am. She does not ask my white coworkers to call her ma’am. This is creating a hostile work environment for me and I am afraid we are violating laws).”

          However, if this is not a battle you wish to fight, that’s totally understandable. Focus on getting the heck out.

          1. Watermelon M*

            Part of me really wants to. A larger part of me is so tired. I feel beat down here. And some part of me knows that this won’t have a happy ending in this specific workplace, but come back to bite me for standing up for myself. I’m promising myself to stand up in other instances outside of work though, and therapy—lots of therapy has been helping.

            1. Us, Too*

              Do you have a white colleague who you are close enough to that you can have them advocate for you? I’m wondering if that person were to go to a boss/HR and say “I’m seeing that Karen makes a big issue of having Watermelon M call her ma’am or Ms. Karen, but never requires this of white people like me. She’s good with me just calling her Karen. This is really uncomfortable for me, personally, and every time it happens I’m cringing inside. It’s really inappropriate and sets us open for serious legal issues potentially. I’d like this to be addressed ASAP.”

        2. Close Bracket*

          he said it was an interpersonal issue that I needed to settle on my own first.

          Yeah, gender and race issues frequently get dismissed like that. I’m sorry. I’m sorry this is happening, and I am sorry your boss and HR are being butts about it. Karen is a Missing Stair, by which I don’t mean that she is a rapist, I mean that she is a Big Problem that people accommodate and work around instead of fixing.

        3. LKW*

          The other option is to use very specific phrases with HR and your manager. Phrases like “If I understand your instructions to placate Karen, it is acceptable that I am treated differently than all the other employees here.” or “I want to make I’m being clear that I, the only Black person on the team, is being asked to behave in a certain way. And I want to be clear that you are telling me that you believe this is acceptable because dealing with Karen’s emotional outbursts are too challenging for you?”

          But if you’re going to use those phrases – it’s best in front of HR or someone from the company’s legal team and even better if you have a new job offer in hand.

          If you don’t need your current manager as a reference, you can burn that bridge once you have a new job offer and make that discussion the trigger for your two week’s notice.

          1. Granger Chase*

            I agree. LKW’s scripts are great here. I would go the extra step and send them via email to document your meetings with HR and/or your Manager & BCC a personal email account of yours so you have a copy you can access later on. This is clearly them pandering to a racist woman and allowing her to discriminate against you, and I am incredibly sorry you are having to deal with this.

    4. Captain Raymond Holt*

      Watermelon M – I’d like to read your OP. Can you share a link?

      When I’m asked why I’m looking, I sometimes do a “push/pull” format – here’s what’s pushing me to leave, and here’s what’s pulling me to the job you’ve posted.

        1. Andie Elizabeth*

          Holy shit, I have nothing constructive to add except that that whole situation is bananacrackers racist and I hope you find a new job soon and can drop your documentation with the EEOC on the way out.

    5. Hope*

      Wow. Well, at least you have an interview coming up. I would GTFO of there as soon as I could. Your boss isn’t going to get any better about dealing with Karen.

      Good luck on the job hunt!

    6. Hex Code*

      This doesn’t solve the overall bullshit of how Karen treats you, but could an alternative to either confronting her or complying be to simply say, “ok,” and keep on going?
      You: Thanks for getting me this thing I needed to do my job, Karen!
      Karen: That’s Ms. Karen.
      You: Ok! [proceed to make no change in how you address her]

      Then the more she escalated it the weirder she looks, and she’s the problem, not you. I’ve done this with ridiculous boss behaviors in the past, and I call it “playing dead.” You’re a possum that will live to fight another day!

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Yes, especially the {proceed to make no change in how you address her] part. Because hell no. Your manager is being deliberately obtuse.

        Although I did have a chuckle imagining you calling her “man” instead of “ma’am”. Like you misheard her request. “I appreciate your help, man!” What can she do, honestly, that wouldn’t make her sound like more of a racist loon?

        I wish you so much luck getting out of there!

    7. Librettist*

      I don’t have any advice to add, but I do want to give you some support! This situation sucks and you deserve better. Wishing you all the luck with your job search!

    8. AJ*

      I’m side-eying your coworkers. If I heard that happen I would say something to Karen, or passive-aggressively add a “ma’am yes ma’am” every time I spoke to her.

  64. hermit crab*

    I am going to be mildly famous next week! A research project I worked on is going to get a bunch of publicity (in a good way – we have a piece lined up with a big news outlet, etc.) and I am prepping for media interviews and all that jazz. I am excited because the topic of the project really deserves attention, but I am also super nervous. I have always been a behind-the-scenes kind of person and now suddenly I’m going to be the face of something. What are your best tips for talking to the press?

    1. WKRP*

      Hello! Friendly neighborhood publicist here. First, congratulations!! here are my tips:

      1) If you (or your PR folks) haven’t already done so, write down some bullet points about your project that people should know. Things to consider include: Simple explanation of how project worked; How it will impact people/places/things; Why are you excited about it? Why should other people be?

      2) Now that you have all your thoughts bullet pointed. Pick 3 main things you definitely want people to know. These 3 main points will help you tie back any answer to the subject you want to highlight or if you get lost, nervous, you can stress to one of the points

      3) An interview is essentially a conversation. Treat the interviewer as a friend or client who is asking you questions about your project. Literally ignore the camera. It’s just a big mechanical object that does nothing. Look at the interviewer.

      4) Wear your favorite business outfit, one you feel comfortable in that doesn’t require a lot of fidgeting or fixing. One where you put it on and immediately feel like a badass professional. TV folks usually prefer people not to wear black or white or distracting patterns, but if your business look is black or white, don’t stress overly much.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Following for an upcoming project, and also commenting based on my one previous experience – what I wish I’d done better.

      Practice talking about your project until you can do so in sound bite form – a way more condensed version of the elevator pitch. Get feedback from people with varying levels of knowledge about your work (family, friends, a couple of coworkers) on how you phrase things and what details you keep or forget to mention. They will probably want the longer pitch up front so the interviewer knows what to ask about, but the interview itself should contain shorter, easier to process sentences that can stand alone fairly well (if possible).

      Also, if/when you see the final cut, don’t be surprised if they cut out a LOT. Taping the interview seemed to last forever, but the final version had maybe 20 total seconds of me talking (two sentences’ worth?). My colleague just went through this too and she said the version used by their news outlet focused on a minor part of the study that she happened to mention and omitted one of the more major parts that she also talked about, but I guess the editors thought the minor part was more attention getting!

      Talking to a magazine reporter was much easier because while it was taped, there was less mental pressure on what I looked like while talking! And there were several of us providing information so that lowered the pressure too. Although again, a lot of what I thought made the study interesting was pretty condensed in the published article. And that makes sense, no one wants to read a 25 page article about your research (and of course you can write that yourself if so motivated!), but my feelings were a little mixed about “hey this is my project in X magazine/on the news!” and “oh, what happened to all the other things we mentioned?”

  65. Someone On-Line*

    Help! I am a new manager – about five months in. One of my employees is really falling behind on tasks and a lot of this is coming to light this week as she’s on vacation and I’m getting phone calls from people asking for her. For example, she’s submitting information and payments up to a month behind schedule. Instead of calling people she will send e-mails that are apparently not making sense.
    Some issues I’ve noticed – she would rather email than pick up the phone (wouldn’t we all) but sometimes you have to call. She spends an inordinate amount of time reading emails and doesn’t seem to be able to prioritize well. It just seems to take her a long time to do tasks.
    Due to scheduling issues, I won’t be able to meet with her until a week from now. Any suggestions for what to say or tools to help her? She is a merit employee in state government, so she would pretty much need to set the building on fire to be let go. And even then it would be iffy.

    1. PantaloonsOnFire*

      First, make sure there are specific requirements in place for her job (e.g.: all payments must be submitted within 5 business days) and hold her to those. If that still doesn’t seem to be working, institute specific processes designed to help her meet those goals (if you need to contact someone about X, you need to call them, not email).

      2. Someone On-Line*

        There aren’t really specific requirements like that as part of the job description – but maybe I need to develop some? Like come up with some very specific metrics for her to follow? I don’t want to micromanage but I feel like she needs a lot of help. Would it be too much to give a breakdown of how her day should go? Like check e-mail for this amount of time (and this seems to take forever for her!) and spend this much time entering payments?

        1. On Hold*

          I think you should definitely get metrics in place for things that have clear parameters, make her aware of them, and document if/when she slips. Is it possible that she thinks this is a good workflow? If so, you need to urgently correct that view.

          For softer stuff like calling versus confusing emails, I would read through some of Allison’s articles about how to structure coaching conversations. The first one is scary! But it’s easier from there.

          Take a few recent examples and talk through them with her. Make your point: “Hey, sometimes everybody is confused and talking past each other. In the last week, I’ve noticed a couple of situations where a phone call could have saved a lot of back and forth.” Key phrases will be “next time, I’d like you to X” or “when you get this sort of email, can you try Y.”

          It can also be helpful to point out the other person’s viewpoint. People who don’t have a strong theory of mind often don’t realize that other people don’t know what they do, which makes communication very difficult. This isn’t always coachable, but you don’t know until you try! If you can get a few example emails, go through them like “so, you and I know that you’re talking about the Llama project… but how was Jessica supposed to figure that out from this email?” Even if they secretly still believe that you’re crazy and there’s no need to put so much dang information in an email, you may be able to adjust the *behavior* enough that other people know what they’re talking about.

          I probably wouldn’t start with laying out minute-by-minute agendas for her days, because that’s going to come across as overbearing. I would make more general recommendations and offer guidance if things are taking longer. For example “I expect billing to take about X hours a day. If it’s taking more than that, let’s look at your process together and see if we can tweak it to speed things up.”

  66. I don't want to have to leave*

    But I will be leaving, next Thursday.

    I’ve posted before about Oscar, my transitioning coworker, who has been making my life miserable (links in replies). He stomps out of meetings when he doesn’t get his way, after slamming his notebook shut with a loud retort. He sends obnoxious emails if things aren’t done exactly as he thinks they should be done. He posted publicly on Facebook that he was actively job hunting because our company had “catfished” him to get him to take the job and lied about the benefits, which would normally get people canned at most places, but he’s still here.

    Well, I must have really pissed him off because he walked into a conference room before a meeting we were both in and lobbed a four-inch binder with a printout of a 500-page RFP at me, missing me by inches. He was “counseled” by HR, but that was it.

    So, I started looking. Despite his difficulties in finding another job in our industry doing the same sort of work, I was flooded with requests for interviews, got two offers, and have selected the best one. My last day is next week. Management was genuinely astounded when I gave notice, and I told them exactly why I was leaving.

    Oscar has proceeded to dump a huge project on me (today) that I cannot possibly finish before I leave. Not my problem anymore.

    The new job has better pay, a better title, and a shorter commute. Oscar has posted on his Facebook that he will be forced to stay at the current company for at least two years because it will look “hinky” on his resume if he leaves. Oh well.

      1. valentine*

        lobbed a four-inch binder with a printout of a 500-page RFP at me, missing me by inches. He was “counseled” by HR, but that was it.
        You might consider reporting this to police.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I love to daydream about what I’d do in a situation like this – I’d love to have picked it up and thrown it right back at him.

          However, like most of us, I would have been frozen in surprise and outrage and thinking Holy Snap, did that just happen?!?!?!?

        1. ..Kat..*

          I recommend handing the project right back to him and saying that you are wrapping things up in your notice period, not starting new projects.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Heck, hold on to it for your notice period and hand it back on your way out, saying it got out-prioritized. Congratulations on getting the heck out! Companies afraid to manage bad employees are doomed to consist entirely and only of bad employees.

    4. WellRed*

      The links aren’t bringing me to the comments, just the page. Did your company not feel they could deal with Socar because he’s transitioning (and they were overly afraid of running afoul of something)? I’m glad you are escaping, but please, you didn’t piss him off. He’s just an asshole. I commend you for not throwing the binder right back at him. Personally, I would love to have seen you take out a restraining order on him and let your company figure out how to deal with that.

      1. Allypopx*

        “Oscar” is a rarely used enough work that a ctrl+f will take you right to it, if you want to read the original posts.

      2. I don't want to have to leave*

        I don’t know if they feel that they can’t take action against him because he’s transitioning. He also, apparently, had a mild stroke right before starting here and has tried to convince people that any behavioral issues are due to that.

        1. LKW*

          I think explaining that you like the company but you can not continue to work with someone who is temperamental, unprofessional and has on more than one occasion throwing things at you. And that while you’d love to stay with the company, you are choosing to leave an increasingly toxic environment because despite issues being raised to management and HR, nothing has changed.

          I think they are rightly petrified of being sued. Oscar doesn’t seem too stable nor self-reflective. I’m sure he believes that everyone is against him but doesn’t realize it has more to do with his own behavior than his gender-identity.

          1. I don't want to have to leave*

            My brother-in-law was fired from his bartender’s job of 12 years at a national chain restaurant after new management came into his location because his cash register was significantly out of balance every night. He tried to find a lawyer to sue on the basis that the new management discriminated against him because he has (rare) petit mal seizures. Every lawyer he met with told him that his seizures were not an excuse for improper money handling and declined to take his case.

            I would hope that lawyers would tell Oscar the same thing, should this company come to its senses and fire him. Sadly, the company doesn’t seem to see it that way.

  67. Amethystmoon*

    Road construction has effectively ended my ability to walk to work a few weeks earlier than expected. The main way I go is closed for 5 weeks and by the time it ends, it’ll be too dark. There’s another way I can go, but it would involve potentially dodging semis in the morning, walking on the curb since construction has blocked off the safer grass area, and takes longer. Oh well, there’s always next year.

    1. Goldfinch*

      I feel your pain. Every single way I can feasibly take to work is under construction because of crumbling bridges. My commuting time has increased by almost half, and they are giving expected completion dates of fall 2021 at the earliest. *cries*

      1. Amethystmoon*

        Yeah, we have mass transit as the reason for our construction. It won’t overall be done until 2022. I don’t know what they plan on blocking off next summer.

  68. Memyselfandi*

    I found a job posted for an organization I am familiar with and think highly of. The position was in a part of the organization I did not know existed. At the bottom of the job posting there is a link to ask questions about the job. It says, No phone calls, click here if you have a question. There were no dates on any of the positions, so I wrote and asked where they were in their hiring process because I wanted to make sure that they had not progressed in their process to the extent that it would not be productive to apply. I also asked if the director of the program listed was the hiring manager. The reason is that the person was listed on the website as interim. It has been over a week and I have received no reply. Is it because of the holiday weekend? Were my questions were inappropriate? Is this an indication that this is not an organization I want to work for? Am I overreacting? I have never had the option to ask a question before, so I figured I would take advantage of it.

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      I think it’s likely that either (a) the questions are getting filtered to an email address or part of the system that the hiring manager isn’t monitoring or (b) they’re not actually interested in answering questions. I don’t think it’s an indication of organizational dysfunction. In the future, my recommendation would be to just apply, and then ask the questions in the interview if you get one.

      1. Memyselfandi*

        Thanks. The application is going to take a significant amount of work , so I didn’t want to apply and then find out they were close to making a decision. Guess I know what I will be doing this weekend!

    2. Federal Middle Manager*

      Honestly, if someone emailed me asking where we were in a hiring process *that we had an active posting for* I would probably not respond, because we are at the “have an active posting” phase. Asking who the hiring manager is may be slightly more relevant, but still not something crucial. I’d assume you either just wanted the right name to address the cover letter to (not important) or wanted to contact them directly to circumvent the hiring process (annoying).

  69. GobBluth*

    I just got offered a job and to my surprise, the salary was given to me in hourly terms. It has otherwise good benefits and is a legitimate company, but I’m still having a hard time wrapping my head around this. Does anyone know why a company would structure comp that way? What are the disadvantages and advantages to this kind of compensation structure?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Pro: if they ask you to work 50 or 60 hours, you’ll get paid for 50 or 60 hours, so they’re also less likely to pile on the work.

      Con: it could be that they expect slow periods, and may try to temporarily cut your hours.

      1. Moray*

        I think it’s a little atypical if it’s a full time job and that’s the only salary information communicated in an offer. Usually, it’s something like “[$X] a year, which translates to [$x] an hour.”

        1. GobBluth*

          I WISH it was communicated that way. From my understanding, there is no guaranteed annual salary, I would be paid by the hour. I’ve seen this once in the past, and it turns out that it was structured that way because the employees were occasionally required to put in hellish amounts of overtime and that was the only way to not have people get completely demoralized. Just wondering if people thought this type of structure was a flag for something along those lines.

          1. On Hold*

            If you’re concerned about hellish overtime – ask! “Do you find that the workflow is pretty even, or is there a lot of seasonal variation? What is low season like? What is high season like?” And then if you have any concern about their answers, “It sounds like you sometimes wind up cutting hours in low season. Do you guarantee a certain number of hours per week? What kind of support do people have during HellMonth? What processes/systems are in place that mitigate the work as much as possible?”

    3. Construction Safety*

      We’re exempt, and pay/timesheet is in hourly pay. Some of my pay is occasionally charged to different cost codes, so I guess that makes it easier.

      1. FD*

        Yeah, I’ve seen it done that way for the same reason. Some payroll software encodes salaried pay on a per-hour basis and just calculates it as 40.00 hours, no matter how many hours you really worked. The version of ADP that we used at a hotel where I worked did it that way, for instance (this was a few years ago, might be different now).

        It is sort of weird they gave it to you in that version though.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      all our salaries (for both exempt and non-exempt staff) are given in hourly rates because some of our benefits are based that way – for example, your health insurance premium for self-only is x if you make 12-18/hour, 1.5x if you make 18.01-24/hour, 1.75x if you make 24.01-35/hour, 2x if you make 35.01+/hour.

      Our salaried folks don’t have to clock, but still have a time card that defaults to 8 hour days M-F.

  70. Miss Fisher*

    I have been in my role for several years now and have been encouraged to find other opportunities because I am kind of stuck with no new room for advancement. A position opened up in a another department that would be a lateral move. The role is similar to what I am doing now, and is a level III, but I assume they would start me at a more junior role. In this case it would even be a downgrade from where I am now. The issue is also that even if it ends up being lateral, I will lose WFH 3 days a week and will have to work downtown. So I would need to dress up daily which means new wardrobe, have to may to park and more in gas money. I just don’t know if the benefits of moving will outweigh the extra expenses. What are your thoughts on such moves? Also, I should mention that I spoke with someone in the role who is a III and said that is as high as they go, so eventually no room for advancement there. I am comfortable staying where I am until something better opens up, but like the article posted a bit ago, I would be nervous to jump to something completely new.

    1. Natalie*

      Doesn’t sound like this new position has much to offer you, based on what you outlined here. Aside from the fact that it’s 10% different or whatever, are you even interested in it?

      1. Miss Fisher*

        Yes mostly because I am finding myself getting bored. I like the idea of learning new processes and the systems that this work is housed on.

        1. valentine*

          You’re going to have to take the leap, but stay where you are until you find something entirely new.

        2. Natalie*

          Any new job will alleviate some of your boredom. That’s not a good enough reason to accept all those negative aspects, IMO.

          Start looking outside your company. It doesn’t obligate you to apply, applying doesn’t obligate you to interview, and so on. But it will feel more comfortable and less scary the longer you sit with it.

    2. Amethystmoon*

      Don’t take it unless there’s a reason besides boredom to. I.e. significantly more pay, super annoying coworkers at current job, toxic management at current job, etc.

  71. Anonymous Educator*

    Any former (K-12) teachers want to share what you ended up doing right after teaching, and how you got that job?

    I used to be a teacher, quit, and somehow managed to get a job working with databases, but it was totally random, and I wasn’t qualified on paper for it.

    My spouse is quitting teaching, but it’s been tough to find a non-teaching job, so I’m curious (barring going to grad school) how others have found post-teaching jobs, and what they ended up doing.

    1. i.love.cats.*

      My wife went from 3rd grade teacher to accountant. She went back to school and earned her BS in Accounting. Took her about two years.

    2. M*

      I have friends who got their school to pay for a graduate degree and then worked in the administration side (that way they could keep the pension) of the school system.

      I have other friends who used it to get careers on the education side of non-profits. And a lot go back to school to do something else. Good luck!

    3. Grapey*

      Go get qualified on paper for it. ‘Database stuff’ is huge nowadays. Companies are falling over backwards to make sense of their data, and if you can even do a simple join you’re above 90% of beginners.

    4. Onyx*

      If your spouse likes teaching but not the school part of it, they might be able to transition to being corporate trainer. Lots of companies have teams that handle internal training (training employees on various job skills). I work in software and we also have a number of roles helping train new customers on how to use or implement the software.

    6. Exhausted Trope*

      I taught 6-12 for ten years and then started curriculum development work. Three years later, that ended so I worked as a teaching assistant for two universities. That lasted six years before I found my current job in HR.

  72. I See Real People*

    I am so over office politics and playing the game of can’t-tell-this-one-that-information and don’t-involve-that-one-on-this-project and just-come-to-me-for-information-so-I-won’t-look-bad-when-I’m-not-doing-my-job. I’m sick of it! Why can’t we just work with normal communication?? Ugh. Why can’t we just work in normal communication mode?
    Sorry, had to vent.

    1. Reba*

      Yeah, I hearyiu. My workplace can be … Uncommunicative to a crazy degree. Because of what we do this is super ironic. I don’t think it’s politics as much as weirdos and/or territorialism but I sure don’t get it.

    2. willow19*

      I feel your pain. I am in trouble not because of the quality and amount of my work, but because people don’t like my methods of communication. You know, the really out-there ones like email and IM.

  73. Rotors at 15*

    Top 5 Friday (what’s yours?)

    #1 this is my Friday before I go on vacay for a week and celebrate my 14 together/15th married (we married a year to the day we met) anniversary with my husband in Chicago and Milwaukee. :) :)

    #2 my beloved coworker is returning from maternity leave the day I get back from vacation and I’m so excited to see her! I’ve been doing her work, gladly, since she’s been gone. :)

    #3 I’m moving to a new desk, my 3rd in the 11-mos I’ve been here and…. It’s not a desk with a door or walls! I’ve been demoted to ‘desk by the front door’ :( and a crappy computer, too.

    #4 I have two hot projects on my desk, from my boss as of yesterday, that weren’t part of my wrapping things up before vacation which means what I wanted to do won’t happen :(

    #5 there’s a cool job I’m applying for because my current job is killing me :(

    1. wingmaster*

      #1 I still have summer hours, so I’ll be clocking out early today!

      #2 I have a colleague from out of country that’s visiting our HQ next week. We work really well together, so I am excited to see her in person. While we have some meetings together, we are also planning on getting dinner and drinks.

      #3 I had an interview earlier this week, which I am really hoping for good news…a bit of background – I interviewed for Role A, which I didn’t get. However, they called me back to see if I was interested in Role B, which sounds more exciting to me.

      #4 I am flying out of state next week for an on-site interview.

      #5 I’m going to a concert this weekend!

        1. Rotors at 15*

          Yeah- you’re right 15/14! Shows you how much of a toll it takes on you! LOL Kidding it’s been fun.
          – 3 states and 1 country = 5 moves
          – 6 hail and farewells
          – 7 cars/trucks
          – 4 home buys/ 3 sales
          – 15 job changes
          – 2 beloved dachshunds who are 4.5 yrs old

          Let the good times roll!

        2. Sam Sepiol*

          Hehe yep unless they got married before they got together:)

          #1 My team manager seems happy that I’m interested in a temp promotion
          #2 I got a faffy job done
          #3 My line manager seems to think a lot of me even though I’m not entirely sure it’s justified
          #4 I haven’t finished something I should have finished but that I just don’t understand :-( but I’m going to try and do it sideways next week dvd see if that helps
          #5 nice chat with someone today.

            1. Sam Sepiol*

              Oh goodness! Errm, it’s… something that’s a bit bitty and annoying. Not a huge job but one that takes more time and effort than it should. Fellow Brits, help me out?!

      2. Rotors at 15*

        “However, they called me back to see if I was interested in Role ” So rare and I think this might be a good sign for the company – they don’t just start over and they really took the time to see your strengths. I hope it’s a good fit for you. Good luck.

        Hope the concert is great, too. We’ll be going to one, as part of the conference my husband is attending and it’s the lead singers of big name 80’s groups.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      It is also my Friday before I go on vacation for a week for my second wedding anniversary! (We’re going to Disneyland and San Francisco.)

      Good luck on all the frowny stuff though :(

  74. Valerie Loves Me*

    Internal interview for a complete and total career change next week. I’m interviewing with a department (a panel of 3 – a colleague, supervisor, and director) on Tuesday and am working on preparing how my work over the past few years can translate to this different position. But, I also haven’t done an interview in years, so I’m totally rusty and totally nervous. I’ve started practicing some responses to typical questions. But, I’d love to hear any tips from career changers.

    Thanks!

  75. Kat Maps*

    This is more of a ‘please don’t be this person’ post…

    I visited with my mother-in-law last weekend. She’s a VP at *big company*. She told me that someone on her staff had bought some small doughnuts for the office and left them out for anyone to take. My MIL wrote a note and put it next to the snacks that read ’90 calories each :( ‘ . I regret not telling her in the moment why she really shouldn’t have written that and I’m still angry about it.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I’m a dumpster on fire when it comes to food, I would have taken them all and totted up the amount on a sticky with the caption, “Tasted great! Thanks!”

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Wow. I didn’t see the frowny face at first, that moves it from awkward to intrusive.

      I would have been tempted to crumple up the note, pop it in my mouth, and while chewing ask “How many calories in a Post-it, Becky?”

    4. Lumen*

      I would’ve been tempted to add a bunch more notes, each one with a more horrified emoji than the last.

      CONTAINS GLUTEN. :o

      THERE IS REFINED SUGAR IN THIS!!! D:

      DESSERT IS MURDER! >:O

      …or maybe just one post it saying: “Most food has calories, Susan.”

      1. Lumen*

        (This would also be a good place to leave a ‘The F*ck It Diet’ sticker saying “If you start talking about your diet I will scream.”)

      3. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I was once in the office kitchen putting sweetener in my coffee and was told by someone else in there that my sweetener was basically poison. I wish I had been able to come up with something really witty, but… no.

    6. Moray*

      Ugh. Did you point out what a slap in the face that was to the person who was kind enough to bring them in?

      1. Moray*

        Meant to write ‘did you want to’ not ‘did you.’ I’m never confrontational enough to tell anyone in my family when they’ve done something mean/stupid.

  76. Fed Timeline*

    In case it’s useful to anyone else as a demonstration that federal hiring is a beast of a process! Also concrete examples are hard to come by…

    Submitted fed job application late Feb
    Interview mid-March
    Tentative offer early July
    Final offer early August
    Start date mid-late August

    1. Brownie*

      Yup, 4 months between applying and getting the “Are you still interested in this position” phone call, then another month for the in-person interview, and one final month for the offer and background check. A total of 7 months from the position being posted to my first day of work. The position was also open for almost 3 months since the rules said they must have a minimum of 30 applicants before they could even call any of the applicants. In the years since some of the things have been more streamlined, but it’s still 3 months minimum between posting the job and getting someone in the office.

    2. Lady Kelvin*

      And this is fast! I just converted from contractor to Fed and mine was apply in March, interview in June, offer in July, start in August (because I already had all the security clearances so that was quick). And my agency can’t believe how quickly the process went. It usually takes ~1 year+ for us and we only need basic background checks.

    3. Former Fed*

      Oh yeah, it’s almost impossible to get a job for the federal government if you really need a job in any normal, timely manner. Years back the position posting I applied for closed in September, I got called for an interview in late January, offered the job in March, started in June. So I get it, crazy – huh?

    4. 1qtkat*

      This is really helpful. Job posting closed early June, request for interview came mid-June, had interview in mid July, and am now waiting to hear back. At the interview, they said hear back I should hear back in September

  77. OyHiOh*

    Happened to stumble across a job posting this week that has my fairly niche non profit, organizational, strategic thinking skill set written all over it. Wrote a solid cover letter, tweaked my resume to show off the specifics they’re looking for, and sent that off yesterday afternoon. I’m not a perfect match but it’s close enough I feel like there’s a decent chance I’ll at least get an interview.

  78. Be Nice or Leave*

    I’d love some tips on how to talk to our department assistant, who is helping me with a project, and while she produces good work, her attitude SUCKS. This project was supposed to be a professional development opportunity for her that was given to her based on merit. However, in our most recent meeting, things were going well, then she started telling me over and over again how she has no interest in this, she doesn’t enjoy it, she doesn’t want to get good at it, she’s not looking forward to doing any more work for it.

    I kind of… just don’t care how she feels about it? I don’t care if you like it, just do the work and complain to someone else. How do I say that professionally?

    It’s too late now to replace her, but I want to give her feedback about this. I am senior to her by quite a lot, but don’t directly manage her – so for example, I would be someone who she could ask to be a reference later if she had made a better impression.

    1. Semaj*

      “I understand that it may be difficult to work on a project that you aren’t invested in, but the reality is that many of us will do have to do just that in our careers. In the future, I’d encourage you not to bring up your dislike of the work because it may impact the opportunities you’re given to pick up new projects.”

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Was she just having a really bad day? How is she normally? For a one-off, I might not say much except something like “Gee you seemed off your game the other day. It’s not typical to hear that kind of negativity about these projects. I hope you’re up to continuing to work on this.” (Except you should say it better.)

      If it’s a continuing attitude problem and the project is a short term commitment, I like Semaj’s wording for telling her politely and clearly to shut up about un-fun work and potential repercussions.

      If it’s a long term commitment and she brings up hating the work again, I would look into any possibility of getting her replaced in the near future. Mostly because I think if she feels comfortable enough, or is clueless enough, to complain that much about a professional development opportunity, then it’s not going to get better. Consider what you’d have to do if she hates it enough that she might quit.

  79. KTM*

    I’ve been toying with the idea of learning Mandarin… I work in the US but interface with an office in China. They have a couple people who have good English skills but I would enjoy being able to have basic conversations in Mandarin, especially when I visit, without a translator. Starting from scratch, does anyone have insight on what kind of time frame/effort level I’m looking at if I’m not doing intensive learning? I would consider myself a quick learner in general, but no specific gift when it comes to languages. There’s a mandarin speaker in my office in the US who I could practice with. Also, any suggestions on resources are welcome. I’m a pretty traditional learner (studying/classroom environment) but I wouldn’t mind trying out podcasts or audio books that I could listen to on my commute.

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      I’m not a quick language learner in non-immersive settings, so take my input with a grain of salt, but I spent about a month going through the first level of Rosetta Stone in Mandarin and two months taking once-a-week lessons while in China and wound up with low-conversational level comprehension and even lower speaking skills. I could have basic conversations about day to day interactions (navigating a hotel, restaurant, etc) but not anything complex or conceptual.

    3. Joy*

      Take a look at the book “Fluent Forever”. It’s very much about how to start from scratch and get to language competency – I haven’t used them method in fully myself but a lot of people love it and it seems to be effective for a self-taught approach.

      1. KTM*

        Just read about the book and the app that was developed using the technique – very cool! They don’t have Chinese yet in the app but they said it’s coming soon…

    4. PeteyKat*

      Oh, I read something about this recently – I forgot what website it was! Mandarin is difficult to learn for many reasons, one being that is it a tonal language. But, depending on your learning method, previous exposure to the language, etc. it can take up to approximately 44 weeks or 1100 classroom hours to get to minimum professional proficiency. Best of luck to you learning this language. It should be fun.

    5. WKRP*

      My local library has free access to a program called Mango Languages. Looks like they offer Mandarin. I’m not sure how successful they are, as I haven’t used it. But it’s free, so worth a shot!

    6. EA in CA*

      Mandarin can be difficult to learn because of the tonal variances when speaking. The speed in which you learn the language will vary depending on how well you can decipher and then mimic those tones in the correct way. Since you are a more traditional learner, I would try to find a class that you can take or a tutor to help guide you until you have the basics down. After that, practice and keep yourself immersed so you can train your ear and brain to recognize the language and decipher what is being said. If you think about how we learnt language as children, it was through constant repetition and immersion. How quickly you learn the basics relies solely on how much effort you put into learning and practicing.

    7. Koala dreams*

      Mandarin is quite difficult to learn when your mother tongue is a Germanic language. The upside is that your efforts will be much appreciated by native speakers, especially if you look non-asian.

      There are quite a lot of useful podcasts out there, you can also try music to get used to the sounds. I recommend to take a class or work with a tutor so you have someone that can correct your pronunciation.

      I don’t have any resources at hand, but you can check the website Hacking Chinese for ideas. There is a page with resources, which lists podcasts, books and more. Since your aim is speaking, you don’t need to spend time on character learning, so that would save you quite some time. Instead, focus on listening, pronunciation and vocabulary.
      http://www.hackingchinese.com

      1. Baru Cormorant*

        To add though, there is a limit to how proficient you can get without learning characters aka how to write. Pinyin is helpful but you won’t know “this is the hao from ni hao” and other tips that make the language make sense.

        Also your language skills will be almost useless in any Chinese-speaking/character-using country if you can’t read.

    8. 1qtkat*

      I’m learning Korean through Duolingo and then use other supplemental materials to get a good basis on sound changes and grammar. While not having tones like Mandarin, Korean is very phonetic and I think I’m getting a hang of the differences in the alphabet. Duolingo is easy and something you can do every day for like 10–15 mins just to start.

  80. Mimmy*

    So on Tuesday I had the dreaded unscheduled phone screen! She called me during my lunch hour. I wanted to go back to my office where it was quieter, and she was fine with me calling right back. But man I totally fumbled my way through this. In hindsight, I wonder if I could’ve asked to call back later in the day or the next day so I could have a little prep time.

    She asked 3 questions: 1) why was I interested in the position and the field this is in, 2) why was I interested in Big State University, and 3) my salary requirements. I think I totally lowballed it :(

    Any tips for answering the above questions for future phone screens?

    1. Federal Middle Manager*

      The salary question is definitely a bit premature in a phone screening, I would have been surprised by that too. But the other two are pretty standard questions.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Nah, the salary question is (thankfully) becoming common in phone screens since job searchers have been complaining about not having that information upfront. It ensures that people aren’t wasting their time interviewing for a position they won’t take due to money. Next time, just ask for a range for the role instead of giving a hard number.

        1. Mimmy*

          I tried asking for what their projected range was but they still wanted an answer from me, so I gave a range but in looking into it further, I definitely gave a low number. If they call me back for an in-person interview, I’ll clarify.

          1. mg!*

            Oh! I didn’t refresh my screen in time to see this. I hate when a company forces you to show your hand first. All the good places I’ve worked have been more transparent because they actually aren’t looking to screw anyone over and don’t want to waste people’s time from the outset.

    2. mg!*

      I always counter the salary question by asking what the range is for the position. I’ve never had them not answer. Then I can give feedback (“yes, we could make something work in that range” if it’s a higher range than I’d expected and I’d take basically anything they offered; “I’m looking to be in the top half of that range” if that would be a requirement for me, etc.).

  81. Serious Imposter*

    I am having a weird case of imposter syndrome mixed with a bit of burnout. I’ve worked with the same boss for 8 years now, and this is the fourth position I’ve had with him – he keeps changing jobs within our company and taking me with him. Each time, it’s a good move for him, and each time he asks me before moving me along – except this last time.

    Literally 10 months ago he moved me from a senior admin role with some project management into a new role specifically created for my skills. He knew I’d been wanting more money, and this was a way to keep me with the company, grow my skills, and give me a chance to do something new that could continue to work after he’d retired (he’s a few years out). And then a few weeks ago, he called me in for a 1:1, which we have very rarely given his insane travel/work schedule, and he told me he’s changing roles AGAIN. And this time he’s just moving me with him without asking – because leaving me where I was exposed me to the group he’s leaving, and he doesn’t agree with what they’re planning. It’s a kind gesture, and means he retains control over me with regards to workload and budget (he’s always been good about paying me what he feels I’m worth, not what the company suggests or what the economy suggests – he knows money is a good way to retain me. What can I say, I’m rather mercenary!).

    But the work he wants me to do…I have no idea how to do it. He has high expectations, which he’s always had, but I could meet them! I know he has faith in my abilities, but I think it’s a bigger stretch than he thinks it is. And the new role means more traveling, which I will do but don’t love, and to new places (previously I only went to one other province to work, and it was close to family). So now I’ll be flying into and out of different countries potentially, but not anywhere near people I want to see (tacking on a home visit was a big incentive on the last role) and not for long enough to really see the place itself (kinda seems sad).

    I know it’s great he’s looking out for me, and I have these wonderful opportunities. (And I know work travel doesn’t always jive with vacation, so if I like the look of a place, I can go under my own steam.) But I was JUST getting the hang of the last role, and looking forward to working more with my new team members and learning what the heck I DO…instead of flying by the seat of my pants, and just rolling with it. I wanted more time to build my network, grow those skills, and work with these lovely people – and now I’ve had a meeting with them to say goodbye! (My boss let them know first, so I didn’t have to break the news, but still…)

    I guess I’m just venting really. I have a good job I enjoy…when I know what it is. I can make this work. But sometimes I look at the new stuff he’s handing me, the old stuff I can’t give away, and the pile of things I’m going to have to make time to learn somehow, and I wonder if it wouldn’t be easier to just…stop. I won’t – the pay is good and I’ve got bills. I have a decent amount of time off, which I use. Maybe I need to take longer vacations than I have been? Part of the issue is that with the workload and the things going on, a few days off is fine, but two weeks would overturn the applecart. At this point I suppose I’m just hanging on for Christmas break.

    1. WellRed*

      You don’t have to hitch your star to his for your entire career. Do you even want this new role? It doesn’t sound like it. Maybe after 8 years it’s time to branch out on your own.

  82. ramonaflowers89*

    Just wanted to vent about one-way video interviews! I had my first one this week and it was awful – it is so awkward talking to yourself and worrying about how you look on camera. I had three opportunities to record an answer, but the first one was always a bust because the robot read the question, the timer immediately counted down 3-2-1 GO in about 10 seconds, so I was still digesting the question when it started recording. I ended up writing scripts and memorizing most of them so I hit the points I wanted even though the person from the video interview company told me not to do that since scripts sound cold and stilted. I feel like most candidates would sound awkward regardless of scripts because few people would be comfortable talking to themselves on a video screen to begin with. Their last question was asking me what questions I had and they would email me answers with a few business days – how does this save you time compared to just answering my questions in real-time on the phone?

    It really made me rethink if I even want that job since apparently HR apparently can’t be bothered to talk to me on the phone for 20 minutes. This job does not require me to self-record myself talking or doing things like for training videos, so it’s not looking for me to have that particular skill. A lot of people promoting them said that they’re not interested in your webcam quality or how you look, just your answers. If that is the case, why have video at all? Why not have me record audio files or even just write my answers out? It just feels like a way to screen out people by appearance with plausible deniability. I feel like going forward, if anyone asked me to do a one-way video interview, I would ask them to throw my application into the bin posthaste because if this is you on your best behavior trying to recruit me, I don’t want to know how you would treat me as an employee.

    Does anyone actually like these? Do people find them as off-putting as I do?

    1. Just no*

      I have never even heard of this. It is absolutely horrifying, and I cannot imagine it is even remotely effective at pinpointing which candidates would actually be a good fit!

    2. 1234*

      I find them as off-putting as you do. In my experience, the companies that use this method are looking for EXCITEMENT! ENTHUSIASM! and while I don’t speak in a monotone, I’m not going to be going rah-rah cheerleader while answering their questions. I’ve only done a handful of these and have gotten the job ONCE and I have a feeling I wasn’t the top candidate.

    3. irene adler*

      I hear ya!

      I’ve done several. Awful each time. Thinking acting lessons might help.

      There’s a reason they want the video and not jus the audio.There are algorithms they use that measure a candidate’s facial micro-expressions and then compare these to successful candidates. Those that compare favorably get moved along in the interview process.

    4. Anon For This*

      I did the one for Shipt and it was fine. Delivering groceries, tons of contractors, how much will it really be scrutinized? They just want to make sure you can look friendly and presentable and communicate well.

      Then I did one for a recruiting firm in a big city that I was moving to. They specialized in temp and temp to hire positions in tech and related fields. It was off-putting. I felt like I was being judged by my appearance too early in the process and that it could introduce a bunch of yucky biases and such. That was just my feeling about it. The context was a huge factor. I ended up severring ties with that company and looking elsewhere.

    5. The Other Liz*

      They’re standard and required where I work. I like them as a hiring manager/member of a hiring committee. My whole hiring committee can see the interviews, on-demand at their leisure. 3 people cant join a phone interview. It also gives everyone an equal experience – the same worded questions, and the hiring committee doesn’t have to just take my word for it – they vote for their favorites to advance. It doesn’t speak to any terribleness in our HR department nor does it say anything about the rest of us who would work with the new hire, so I wouldn’t let it scare you off. They know it’s awkward. I’m forgiving when I watch and evaluate them!

      1. ramonaflowers89*

        Why not do a conference call/put the phone on speaker with all the same questions? I have had phone and in-person interviews where the committee said they are asking all the candidates the same questions, so I know the process is standardized. I have had about half of my phone interviews with the entire hiring committee.

        Wouldn’t you be potentially discriminating against people who could not afford laptops (though most people do have phones, so they can do phone interviews) or live with a lot of people so it wasn’t very quiet or had a “too messy” background or whose webcam quality wasn’t great? If you know they are awkward, how helpful exactly are they? When I was having technical issues, the company rep told me to go to the library to record it. Now I have to travel to a different location, hopefully find a private room with a computer with a webcam because I can’t very well disturb other patrons while I ramble on, all for this not actual interview? That’s a lot of hoops to jump through for a job where no one from the actual company has even contacted me yet – the only person I have heard from regarding this job was a rep from the video interview company. I think it does say something to the job candidate (at least, it does to me) whether the company intends it or not – that the company does not think having any real-time contact with job candidates is necessary, which does not start the candidate experience off well.

        “It doesn’t speak to any terribleness in our HR department nor does it say anything about the rest of us who would work with the new hire, so I wouldn’t let it scare you off.” But how would I know that? I would have no idea if your company is great because I have no chance of evaluating the company myself through talking with an employee. All I got to go off is my first impression, which is overwhelmingly negative.

        1. Amethystmoon*

          I agree, such videos are classist. Also, who’s to say they won’t weed people out based on looks alone?

      2. Gumby*

        Yes, it’s always great when you can get applicants to jump through hoops, prepare for an interview, find the right place to record, and put in all of the effort while you put in exactly no effort, judge them at your leisure, and refuse them the ability have an actual conversation about the company or the position until you have decided from your exalted position that they are worthy of speaking to a human being at your company.

        It is an incredibly one-sided way to “interview” and definitely drives many good candidates away.

        Also? It is possible and not even difficult to have 3 people join a phone interview. If your company can’t figure it out, well, I already knew I wouldn’t work for them from their lack of consideration so I suppose the lack of competence doesn’t matter.

    6. Double A*

      I had to do this as the first round for my current job, which is 100% remote and requires you to communicate frequently with coworkers and clients via webcam, including doing presentations that can feel kind of one sided, so this kind of interview was actually somewhat relevant to the skills needed for the job. This includes being able to appear professionally on webcam, as well as having access to adequate technical knowledge to conduct this kind of interview (which isn’t a ton but if you can’t figure it out or are very off put by this requirement, you will not be a good fit for the job). So in those circumstances, I think it’s actually a decent practice. If it’s for a butts in seat job where webcam communication will be infrequent, then maybe not so much.

  83. Ginevra Farnshawe*

    I need some good vibes sent my way! Just took a big old leap of quitting to get my own practice started up (after I take like, a three month long nap). I’m focusing on a niche where there’s a known need (various aspects education law among other things), I’ve got enough of a cushion to give myself two years before I have to start worrying about profit, I’m as well situated to do this as anyone, but it’s still ENORMOUS and TERRIFYING and THRILLING AHHHHH.

      1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

        My friend’s mom is always giving me Vedic astrology tips because her daughter won’t listen to them and she says late January will be a good time for my website to go live so that’s actually closer to four months napping.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Congratulations! I did this myself (banking law niche) seven (no, eight(!)) years ago. Scary at first, but still going strong.

      1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

        Good vibes all soaked up! I haven’t been commenting here for long but Alison’s cultivated a really thoughtful, decent culture and I will be back to hyperventilate about my travails and offer semi-solicited life choice opinions (after my four month nap.)

  84. KathyJean*

    In a few weeks, I’ll be picking an interviewee up from their hotel to do a driving tour before going to dinner: anyone have any tips on what you’d like to know about a city, what makes a good tour, what would make you feel welcome, what not to do, etc?

    It’s pretty informal, but that means there’s not much guidance, just a general “pick the candidate up and drive them around for a while before dinner”

    Random details that I’m not sure are important:
    Dinner is a small group, car ride is just the candidate and me
    Higher Ed
    I’m not on the hiring committee, just doing the night before tour/dinner.
    The role would be a at the same level and department as me, but very different job/team
    My car will be cleaned, detailed, and as scent free as possible

    1. Purple Rain*

      If they have kids, most will ask you about the local schools, activities, etc. You could ask what their interests are and offer activities to match them. You could point out some fun things to do in your town such as festivals, concerts, etc. and if you’re in close proximity to any large cities, venues, etc. I’m in a smaller size city on the west coast and I’m always surprised at how many candidates I’ve met for various positions who have never set foot in my state.

    2. Kaitlyn Westlet*

      If you can contact the person before hand and find out what they are interested in- do they want to see elementary schools and close subdivisions? The night life scene in the city center? The closest Target? I’m not sure about the legal issues that you might run into if you ask them about their life stage/family etc, but it depending on if they have kids and their ages that would make a big difference. If your area is known for something cool make sure you show them that… I’m thinking like you wouldn’t visit Chicago without having deep dish pizza or go to St. Louis without visiting the Arch.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Will you be able to touch base with the candidate beforehand? If so, are you able to ask about hobbies or anything specific they’d like to see? I know it’s higher ed and these things can get touchy, but if someone asked me if there was anything in a city that I would be especially interested in, I might say that I would like to see the downtown area, the arts center if they have one, and the busiest area for restaurants and bars. Maybe the library.

      What I would not do is assume anything, as in, don’t drive by elementary schools because you think they might have kids, don’t point out churches, that kind of thing. But if they ask to see those places, then take them there.

      If you have a favorite part of the city, it’s ok to drive by– even if it’s a church or a school. For example, if you love the architecture on an old cathedral and you think the area around it is really interesting, that’s something fun to see.

    4. Hi there*

      I’d want to hear from you what you like about living there. If it is the running trail by the canal, let’s drive by it. If it is the mix of neighborhoods maybe we could see a couple of them. That could include good schools or facilities for older adults but like the others have said you’d want to present these in a way that does not assume or ask.

    5. KathyJean*

      Great answers so far, thank you all!

      With the way our city is laid out combined with the day and time of the dinner, I can go through the museum/ arts area, the Fancy Historic neighborhood, a Hipster-y neighborhood, and a New Trendy neighborhood before ending at the restaurant in the business/entertainment part of downtown, and pass a couple of neat landmarks along the way. Not gateway arch level, think more World’s Largest [RandomObject] and a historic cemetery/park/botanical gardens.

      The biggest touristy landmark, like the one that people around the world have heard of and travel here for, is too far out to get to on the tour, but they should pass it on their way to and from the airport.

      The good news is, the tour and dinner is the evening before the full day of interviews/presentation/lunch with our department, etc so if I don’t have a good answer it’s not the last chance to learn about it; Like if they ask about schools, it’s not the end of the world for me (childfree and moved here as an adult) to not have opinions/recommendations, when I can connect them with coworkers with similarly aged children the following day.

  85. It's you, not me - we're breaking up*

    Applying for a job in which the person you’re directing your resume is a Board member of the current non-profit you work at?

    I want to put in for the position but don’t know how to broach the ‘hey I work at the non-profit whose Board you sit on and I want to apply to work for you’ (this person is the Board President for the non-profit I want to apply to).

    Will they want to know why I’m leaving? Will they want to know if I’ve notified my boss of my search? Do I have to reach out separately to request confidentiality or is that implied? I don’t know this Board member but I happened to meet them last week at a meeting for a different purpose.

  86. Just no*

    I have a really weird situation on my hands.

    Someone stole my pumping bra from my desk.

    Do I report this to our lone HR person, or just quietly feel violated and let it go?

    There is a zero percent chance that I accidentally misplaced it or took it home or something. I have to take it off to take off my pump, and I know I haven’t been walking around for the last two days with a breast pump hooked up. I have turned my office and my home upside down looking for it just in case I misplaced it. It really was there when I left the office one night and gone by the next morning. We have one office admin/HR person in my office. I feel so awkward about this. Help!

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Report it. It may not be someone in your office, it could be the cleaning staff or something. But theft is serious and should be addressed. It feels awkward because of what it was.

      1. PantaloonsOnFire*

        Yep yep yep. There is zero reason for you to feel awkward, as you did nothing wrong. Thank you in advance for helping to normalize the existence of pumping parents in the workplace!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’d report it because stolen things need to be reported, and also because someone may have taken it for…um…pervy reasons. And if there is someone like that in the office, then someone in authority needs to take care of it.
      If there are any cameras in the office, they can hopefully figure out what happened quickly and put your mind at ease.

      2. WellRed*

        After my boss learned about a bit of ball dropping this week she was not best pleased with me. She has every right to be annoyed, but I am frustrated and burned out (this waxes and wanes for me) and demoralized that I haven’t had a raise in several years. We still have the same benchmarks (for lack of a better term) that we had 20 years ago when we had more staff more resources, more pages (magazine) and received regular generous raises etc. I’ll have to plan out what to talk about when we meet about this next week.

      3. WellRed*

        After my boss learned about a bit of ball dropping this week she was not best pleased with me. She has every right to be annoyed, but I am frustrated and burned out (this waxes and wanes for me) and demoralized that I haven’t had a raise in several years. We still have the same benchmarks (for lack of a better term) that we had 20 years ago when we had more staff more resources, more pages (magazine) and received regular generous raises etc. I’ll have to plan out what to talk about when we meet about this next week. I posted this elsewhere as nesting fail. sorry!

    3. BadWolf*

      Oh yeah, definitely awkward! I would bring it up — maybe you could address it as an “article of clothing” ? And maybe from the angle that perhaps you left it somewhere unexpected or maybe someone was cleaning and thought it was something to be tossed in the garbage. You are hoping to discover that someone thought it was lost and maybe it’s still sitting around somewhere or that someone threw it away so you know for sure to invest in a new one.

      It could be a mistake, it could be theft (and the office needs more evidence), it could be a weird creeper. I would avoid starting with “The cleaning staff obviously stole it.”

      I once had a friend who thought I left a sweatshirt at her house. She was really sure it was mine. I was pretty sure it was not, but she was so sure that I did question myself. Turns out she was trying to give me her husband’s sweatshirt. So…sometimes odd things happen.

      1. Lilith*

        Get a picture of one& show it around to the staff. Maybe there’s a lost & found box somewhere that custodial staff uses???

    5. Rumint has it*

      I appreciate your levity: “And I know I haven’t been walking around for the last two days with a breast pump hooked up.” I laughed so hard but it’s not the same when no one is in the office today :)

      I say start with, “WHO STOLE MY BOOBS!” and see where that goes…

      Seriously – that’s an expensive loss, I assume (I don’t have children)

      1. YetAnotherUsername*

        They’re not that expensive. Mine was about €25 including postage. Not that that makes this OK though!

        I don’t think I would actually want it back! The kind of person who would steal a pumping bra might… do things with it.

        But I definitely think they should get in A LOT of trouble for stealing it.

    6. Ann Perkins*

      Report it! Fellow pumper here. If they have cameras outside your office, maybe they can pinpoint who took it. And I’m sorry, that sucks and pumping bras are not cheap!

  87. Jo*

    This isn’t a question but… today I got the written offer of employment from my new workplace, and I got to hand in my notice at this truly awful, dysfunctional office!!

    And I got to do so after arriving at work to find the financial controller, who for some reason thinks she is my boss (she very much isn’t) and who talks to me like I’m pure garbage, waiting in my office to ambush me! I’M SO HAPPY I’M LEAVING THIS PLACE!! And I’m going somewhere progressive, with organisational structure and actual HR(!) and hopefully no rude, aggressive financial controllers!

  88. Jamie*

    Some good news came my way. Since starting this new job several months ago I’ve been sharing an office, which I don’t really mind except when my office mate is eating. (My misophonia and my office mates chewing habits aren’t a happy marriage.)

    Two people with their own offices will be retiring soon and I was planning on asking my boss about the possibility moving when that happens, but I didn’t want to overstep because I’m not completely comfortable here yet and there are unspoken rules I still don’t get…but anyway, out of the blue he told me yesterday I’ll be getting my own office.

    So will solve my problem and I didn’t have to initiate the conversation. I don’t have a lot of victories these days, so this small win was nice.

    Also have a major external audit coming up…throughout my career I’ve always loved them. It’s always been the place where I shine and where I’m most confident in hitting it out of the park. This is my first in this new position since bouncing back from serious burn out and it’s strange. I have moments of true excitement…like remnants of who I used to me forcing themselves to the surface.

    But my confidence is still somewhat shattered and there is now fear in an area I never doubted myself before.

    Thanks for the therapeutic vent :)

    1. fposte*

      I am glad to hear you’re coming back from burnout, glad to hear you’re getting a private office soon, and glad to hear from you again generally.

      Shaken confidence is like ink in water; everything that was clear and visible and transparent gets suddenly murky to you as well, even if it’s not the source. It’s very cognitively destabilizing.

      1. Jamie*

        Thanks. :) And that’s a great analogy. For a while I thought the water would clear, as it were, and I’d be back to my old self but now I’m just trying to adapt to my new, murkier, surroundings.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Wait. JAMIE Jamie? Jamie who met her husband-to-be in the SuperDawg parking and who’s been gone for a while? Or am I misreading? (I know there can be multiple Jamies — something about this post and fposte’s response made me think it’s former Jamie.)

      1. Jamie*

        Nah – that’s me! We’re divorced now, and have to say I’m sad you remember me for that and not for sending you a pic of the Christmas Wraith!

        Maybe I should have used my Hello Kitty avatar :)

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          The Christmas Wraith is so intensely meaningful to me that I couldn’t mention it without first knowing it was definitely you.

          You should be using your Hello Kitty avatar. There have been a few other Jamies over the years and that will ID you properly :)

          I’m thrilled to know you’re here. You have been missed! (Now I realize you might have been here for a while and I just didn’t realize it, per lack of avatar.)

          1. Jamie*

            Thanks! It’s been a really rough couple of years. I used to post about careening towards burn out and then at some point careening stopped and I slammed into the tree of “holy crap I think I just ruined my career!”

            Unfortunately, I still need to earn a living so refusing to work in a pique of spectacular egomaniacal pouting wasn’t an option …so took a slightly new direction and trying to find some of this professional satisfaction and work/life balance thing I’ve heard so much about. It’s elusive, but if anything can help me chart a new path it’s AAM. :)

            1. Silver Radicand*

              I’m a long-time lurker and even I am excited to hear from you again Jamie. I’m sad to hear things have been rough, but know that you have indeed been missed.

          2. fposte*

            She has been posting for a little while! I at first wasn’t sure if it was the right Jamie, and then thought maybe she was trying to be low profile, but I just gave up and said something today.

    3. Myrin*

      Oh Jamie! Our Jamie! You’re here!! It’s probably weird but I’m honestly pretty emotional right now!

      I’ve been seeing your name for a couple of weeks now but since the Hello Kitty was missing, I simply assumed it was another/a new Jamie (one whose comments I also liked, though).

      I’m so glad to hear from you, you’ve been dearly missed! And I’m truly sorry you’re in a rough spot right now. I’m floating around somewhat strangely in the moment as well, so I sympathise deeply with feeling shaken and a bit lost and unsure about an area which was previously associated with certainty and confidence. I’m wishing you all the best; here’s to many more small victories as well!

      1. Jamie*

        Every time I see your avatar I smile – you’re my kindred spirit.

        That’s my avatar on Spiceworks.

          1. Jamie*

            Okay, sappy as this sounds you guys made me cry…you too, @silver Randicand…glad it’s a Friday and I’m alone in here.

            So at the risk of being too emotional about workplace issues…after hitting the wall with burnout I couldn’t read here for a while because I felt like such a failure. I’d read the letters and it felt like a lifetime ago when I was last in a place where I felt I had something to contribute to discussions about work. Then I was between jobs for several months and I’d pop on to search to refresh myself on interview tips and such, but shied away from the comments and the interesting content because it felt like I was looking at a world I was afraid I’d never be a part of again – the workforce.

            I didn’t have a breakdown or anything, and I was trying to keep busy by ghost writing some incredibly boring crap…but I can’t explain the mindf*ckery that burnout did to me. Initially I had a realistic view of my own mistakes in how I handled things and errors in judgement in taking a job which ended up derailing me…but that realistic view turned dark by degrees each day and at some point none of the things I’d ever accomplished in my career seemed real anymore.

            All I could see was failure. Any previous success felt like fraud in retrospect. I lost faith in my skills, but even worse I lost trust in my own judgement. It was like being emotionally paralyzed. I needed to move on and get back to work and I didn’t know how.

            I remember leaving one interview, after doing a pretty good job on selling myself, and sobbing when I got to the car because I remembered when I used to believe those things.

            It was one of many moments where I all I wanted was to be me again and I had no idea how to do that.

            I’m typing this not as a personal cathartic release (although it was, kinda…thanks) but because I know I’m not the only one reading here who has felt that way. I am sure I’m not the only one who let what they do become too conflated with who they are and then felt the bottom drop out when they hit a bump in the career path.

            I’m not back to the old me (although I still miss her) but I’m rebuilding my confidence. I no longer see my past accomplishments as fictional – they were real. As were my mistakes, which I no longer demonize myself for making. Most days, anyway.

            But I dumb as I feel for typing this all out I’m going to hit submit anyway. For years I’ve considered this my second workplace…my happy place in the world of work where logic reigned along with humor and compassion so when I was hired for the job I have now (which I didn’t even apply for…long story) I had a 4 day weekend before starting and I spent it reading all the AAM I’d missed in the previous few years!

            Crazy right? But it was safe to read about work again, even if I still felt too broken to comment…and it was a sign I was headed in the right direction.

            TLDR – I love you guys.

            2. HR Stoolie*

              “For years I’ve considered this my second workplace…my happy place in the world of work where logic reigned along with humor and compassion…”

              And thank you for bringing all three of those together. You were always Ctrl F for me.

  89. Annonytech*

    I wrote in a while ago about getting negative feedback after being out for emergency surgery. The general feedback was “run!”.

    Well I applied for an internal promotion and my bosses and their boss found out (pretty normal) and after a silent couple of weeks they have really started being better over the past two months.

    I’m still not super happy, I got dingged on my performance review for the “confrontations”. I would have got 10 out of 10 but instead got 8 out of 10. Not a bad score at all, but still disappointing if not unexpected.

    The worst offenders are being nice for now, and I did get a verbal apology from my boss acknowledging my FMLA was not handled well and that they have learned from it.

    I guess I’m still feeling punished, I would not have mishandled the confrontations if I had not been attacked for being on FMLA, but I get that I still didn’t address those attacks in a graceful professional way.

    I’ve got my eyes open but things are bearable and much improved here. I am awaiting for the internal and then will see what I do if that falls through. Thanks for all the advice.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Jerks don’t usually stop being jerks. I would enjoy the quiet while it lasts, but keep looking.

      1. Annonytech*

        I’m personally hoping for sustained improvement, but not expecting it. For me, the apology, even if it wasn’t on paper was a big step.

    2. WellRed*

      The word you’re looking for is retaliation, not punished, for using FMLA. That framing could help you down the road if this continues.

      1. Annonytech*

        That’s true, I did experience retaliation, but I’m not sure the lower performance review counts. They can point to concrete misbehavior on my part, and while the misbehavior (e.g. being visibly frustrated and argumentative) was in response to the retaliation and attacks on me made after my FMLA, it’s still bad behavior on my part.

  90. Michelle*

    I’m sure everyone posting/commenting here knows this (this is why this website exists!) but I just have to write it out for my own sanity: I firmly believe that 99.9% of workplace problems stem from poor management. Overly strict/lax, have no idea how to hire well or when it’s time to let someone go, wishy-washy on rules, no idea on how to communicate, etc. We’ve had a bout of management issues lately and it’s working my last nerve. I just want to put that DMX song, Party Up, on repeat. Or, more accurately, the verse that says “Y’all gon’ make me lose my mind
    Up in here, up in here” on repeat.

    2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      1000% yes.
      In my little office group, we have a Grand Boss who is traveling/marketing and out of the office all but a day or two per month, and the ordained ‘office manager’ is a paralegal who straight up laughs and says ‘I’m not the office manager’ any time someone asks her to do anything in that capacity. FUN TIMES. I’ll be looking for my exit after my holiday bonus lands.

    3. softcastle*

      I truly agree. Every good manager I’ve had has encouraged and supported employees, found a balance between empathy/understanding and boundaries/firmness where appropriate, and called out toxic behavior before it affected the environment. Every weird workflow problem was given space to be addressed and was communicated appropriately to necessary parties, and opportunities for growth were given generously to those who expressed interest.

      Conversely, bad management has either caused or allowed every single issue I’ve ever had in an office environment. From workflow problems to toxic, unchecked behaviors to inaccessibility and the resulting poor communication, to whatever. I’ve never had your stereotypical Type A Yelling Screaming Abusive boss, though–all of my bad bosses have been the opposite. Too kind and afraid of conflict to make waves or actually manage. Or, just straight up absent and unavailable.

    4. smoke tree*

      It’s just confirmed my belief that it would be much more logical to have a “management track” as whole separate job category, rather than promoting from within a department. In a way, I think the value of good management skills is seriously underestimated. A good manager makes it so much easier for everyone else to succeed.

  91. blink14*

    I worked in a horrible, small commercial property office for a good chunk of my 20s. It was my first full time job (I’d worked summers, temp, and side jobs prior), didn’t pay well, but was a short commute and I landed it just before the last recession hit, which translated to being there for a lot longer than I wanted to be.

    My boss was awful, constantly demeaning, suspicious, difficult to work with, and alienating. It took me about a year to realize she wasn’t acting that way just towards me, it was everyone – the maintenance department (who were our other full time employees), the stores that rented space (to the point the managers and owners would only deal with me), and our seasonal temp workers. Once I came to that realization, most of what she did just rolled off my back – I focused on getting my work done and treated the job as basically as possible – a paycheck to live, eat, and enjoy my hobbies.

    I looked off and on for a long time for a new job, but the last 6 months at that old job really spurred me to kick the search into high gear. My boss became even worse and the final straw for me was being reprimanded, in public, at a co-hosted event with a community organization we’d worked with many times, literally for putting a camera on a table. The directors of that organization were horrified and both made a point to talk to me and let me know that my boss’ reprimand wasn’t ok. A month later I got an interview for my job now and left within another month.

    What did I learn from this? I can handle working for an extremely difficult boss. I can navigate a minefield. I can manage up. I can take on any project and get through it, because I made it through that job.

    My advice – try not to take anything negative your department head says or does personally. Other people are well aware of how she acts, and that proves that it isn’t personal to you, it’s the way she’d be no matter who was in the position. You are learning a valuable skill here – how to deal with a difficult co-worker or boss. Use that to your advantage and consider it an “off the paper” skill. You have the upper hand by being able to leave for something better, translate everything you’ve learned at your current job into skills for a new one.

    1. Michelle*

      This reminds of the person who used to post as “I Work on a Hellmouth” in the Friday open threads! They worked in property management for an apartment complex, had a horrible boss, crazy squirrels and various other hi-jinks happening at that office.

  92. Jaid*

    Someone broke the window of the vending machine in one of our break rooms, and the response was to close off the break room using yellow security tape. I could see doing that if there was still glass on the floor, but there wasn’t. In the meantime, that break room is the only one that has a working ice machine. In the whole building (aside from the cafeteria which is charging per cup of ice).
    BTW, someone untied the tape and went in for her lunch bag (left overnight in the refrigerator). I followed her in and got ice, because the whole thing was stupid as heck.
    Sigh.

  93. Hey nonny nonny*

    Input/suggestions wanted from remote workers!

    I’ve worked in the legal field for 7+ years and would really love to find a position where I can work from home most, if not all the time. I see plenty of postings for remote work for my position and background, but I’m aware that a ton of these are scams (or just presented with tilted/incomplete information). In addition to my work experience, I have a paralegal certificate and a bachelors degree, so I do have the credentials and experience to apply to positions where those things are a prerequisite.

    What would help me to stand out as a candidate or what should I be looking for to find a legit position? I can get health insurance through my spouse’s employer so I’m not ruling out contractor work, but the uncertainty of it definitely makes me anxious…

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      To find legit positions from job boards, go to the listed employer’s website to make sure you see the job posting. Type their name into Google to see what comes up in their search results. For example, I almost fell for the Vector Marketing scam back in ‘09 after graduating from college and desperate for a job, but something about their ad gave me pause. I went and Googled their name and, sure enough, there were tons of reviews and websites that talked about how it was not a real marketing company, and you’d be going door-to-door selling knives. So that quick search saved me from wasting money I didn’t have to get to an interview for a job that wasn’t remotely what was advertised.

  94. Tired (venting)*

    here I am again, the severely-underpaid, wears-all-the-hats, recruited-by-best-friend-of-10-years-and-it-was-the-worst-decision-of-my-life, soon-to-resign-after-10-months-of-thankless-work lurker! I did an exit interview of my sales staff and it was very enlightening. Turned out the reason he resigned was because of what Boss Friend said to him; she basically dismissed and belittled his question about when we’ll be getting new sales staff (at that time he was running ragged as a solo account executive), and he felt like all his effort and dedication to the office was unseen and unappreciated, so he lost his respect and motivation to work there (well hello there! Same boat!)

    I wrote an exit report and sent it to my boss, and she only said, “wow, there’s a lot of my mistakes.” And she talked about “making a KPI” and stuff that made me think she doesn’t understand what KPI is, and anyways, the exit report stated that she was not empathetic and now she wants to use numbers and graphs to judge staff performance?? And she said that “we will give compensation for extra tasks that’s outside of their job desc as appreciation” um excuse me? Being paid for one’s labour is not “appreciation” it’s their right! I was basically galaxy-brain-ing and decided to just nod and smile (or the Slack chat equivalent of it because she works from overseas). I’ve been doing a lot of nod and smiles lately because I refuse to clean after her crap after months of doing it.

    She’s also doing a big time project she didn’t share with me the details or involved me in the planning, business partner my ass. So I won’t be touching that project as well, because the planning is already bad and has many loopholes and flaws with too tight deadline, and I’m not here to clean up after THAT mess. She’s also not communicating well with me, idk if she could sense that I’m being aloof and unwilling to offer my help and opinion, but welp! I’m not gonna be proactive anymore! Bye in two months!

    1. On Hold*

      Why not bye now, or at least start looking? This sound really unpleasant and it will probably take you two months to get a new position anyway. Get the jump on it.

      1. Tired (venting)*

        I’m planning to move to Canada to start over, so as soon as I resign I’ll have some things to take care of, including an overdue eye surgery that my boss wanted me to postpone until December. Hopefully it’s gonna go well!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Glad to hear you’re getting out! Boy, it’s a lot of good news this week for people getting out of toxic situations!

      If you’re the person who’s somehow on the local company paperwork for this branch of the company, make sure your name is removed for any and all purposes. You definitely don’t want to find out you’re on the hook financially if (when) the company branch craters under your ‘partner’s’ mismanagement.

      1. Tired (venting)*

        Yes, it’s very nice to see that many people are getting out of it!

        And yes, I’m the one. I will try to be diplomatic to make the process smoother, though I’m quite conflicted about what reason I should give to the investors.

  95. Mellow*

    Shamelessly looking for sympathy about having a no-boss boss.

    My boss just refuses to lead. Needs his hand heldon *everything*, is very reactive instead of pro-active, never follows through on anything, doesn’t grow us as individuals or as a team (there are 5 of us plus him). It’s like working for Eeyore. What worsens the situation is that the only other person in our group with a modicum of leadership is personal friends with him and so defends him on everything.

    I am working on leaving; until then, any advice for handling this person who is a nice man otherwise but who doesn’t belong anywhere near a leadership role?

    1. Kathleen_A*

      I had a boss almost exactly like this, and what I ended up doing was: Waiting for him to retire. Which he eventually did. I’m not saying that works in every situation, mind you. :-)

      What I did while waiting was basically work around him. I made sure he saw everything he was supposed to see, and other than that, I just did my thing. If I needed approval for something and couldn’t get it from him, I’d have his supervisor approve it for me. A normal boss would be pissed off by this – and maybe your boss would be, too – but it never bothered this guy.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I roll my eyes privately, and CYA. But mine will throw you under the bus when he thinks it’ll serve him.

      1. Mellow*

        Thank you, Kathleen_A and I’m A Little Teapot.

        Get this: he isn’t waiting to retire, but he does want to step down and have each of us lead the department every so often. So, I’d be department head for two months, someone else would do it for two months, etc. In the words of my dad, “That’s the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard.”

        Also, yes, I do work around him, although you’re lucky you could go over your former boss’s head and get approval elsewhere. The ONLY time my boss is willing to lead is on the easy stuff (“Can I have your permission to serve on such-and-such committee?”). Anything else, and he’s nowhere to be found.

        He even refuses to discuss our department having a policy for workplace safety.

        The whole thing is beyond maddening. I can’t wait to leave.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          Little Teapot’s ideas (eye-rolling and CYA) are very good and very important, too. My old boss wouldn’t exactly throw us under the bus if he thought it would serve him, but he definitely wouldn’t stand up for us if anything went wrong, either – and he’d never accept any of the blame.

          Hence my getting approval from his immediate superiors, whenever possible. That was my CYA insurance.

    3. Ladybug Whisperer*

      I’m sorry I don’t have any ideas for you, my manager is not a leader either but we can’t really work around her much, just the dynamics here.

      But I did have a question – is his boss unaware of how ineffective he is? I always wonder this. My manager’s boss is retiring and generally doesn’t employ any kind of accountability so you can imagine the issues here.

      Best of luck with the job search!

      1. Mellow*

        Thank you, Ladybug Whisperer. His own boss is exactly the same, and her boss is the kind who doesn’t trust her lower-level leadership and so flattens the hierarchy.

        It’s really a mess. Thank for your well wishes!

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Is there a reason you need him though? Are your hands tied in ways that mean that you have to lean on him for leadership? Like does he have to approve things before they get done?

      My response has always been to do it myself, work around the person and just be self sufficient. Which has transferred into them being all “You don’t even need me do you!? You can do it all yourself?!” “Yeah no, I don’t need you unless you make me need you.”

      Now I have a couple things I have to get rubber stamped but thankfully my boss isn’t hard to track down for that and doesn’t take forever. So aside from that stuff, I can just do my job? But I know that’s not the case for every team and setup, so that’s why I’m just wondering if you do indeed need him and choose to be all “You’re the boss, do your boss thing…I’m waiting.” or if you can just say “Okay dude, I’ll step over your dead weight and do my job around your sorry butt!”

      1. Mellow*

        Such a great response; I totally see myself in it. I do try to manage myself as best I can, but a problem with him is he needs his hand held to do his own job, so he’s always coming to the rest of us for help on stuff he should easily know. I do say things like “You’ve got this,” but then he turns to a colleague who is a classic mommy-ing type and so is only too happy to help. And so on. The problems are endless.

        *sigh* There really is no solution here but the exit door.

        Thank you, The Man, Becky Lynch.

  96. Liz*

    Looking for a little advice. Been in my current role for about 4 years. I’m working as an Executive Assistant and have about 20 years administrative experience.

    I had very dynamic and complex roles in the past. Think more of an office manager and I was lucky that two of the Executives really respected me and appreciated me so I truly worked as their “right arm” as the saying goes and learned a great deal.

    At the moment I work for someone who really feels an EA is more of someone to schedule meetings and handle catering and such and isn’t able to do more detailed work. On the rare occasion I have been able to do anything beyond that and do it well, she seems so surprised it’s hard not to feel a little insulted.

    The company I work for has very few administrative staff in general and a lot of them aren’t very skilled at all (think sending an email to schedule a meeting instead of using Outlook with some because they don’t know how to use Outlook, much less Excel or PowerPoint). I’m not sure if that’s part of what sets this tone that we’re not able to do high level work. I’m also often put in a position to help them do their work and am getting overwhelmed. When I mentioned this to my manager she told me I represent her and she expects me to be helpful to everyone.

    The whole organization has a general condescending attitude towards the non-exempt/non-management staff. I was interested in applying for other roles but almost all require a BA that I do not have and they aren’t flexible on that point. I applied for one role that took work experience into account, and after months of interviewing for it, it was awarded to me IF I took a paycut. I respectfully declined.

    I am trying to stay for the benefits and flex schedule/WFH… but I’m having a hard time feeling so invisible and undervalued. While I don’t need gifts, at the holidays my manager’s team who I work for consistently as well, all pool money to buy my boss a gift but don’t even give me a card. I’ve never seen a team buy gifts for a Senior Exec but not the admin staff.

    Now I guess I am just venting. This morning I figured something out regarding our travel budget entry (which is given to me because no one else wants to do it) that would save me several hours of work. I confirmed with Finance and informed my team. Email ignored by my boss, as is usual. A few months ago I sent her an idea and she thanked me for the initiative and in a meeting a few weeks later, someone else brought it up and I could tell, she never read it.

    How can I stay in a place like this and not let it bother me? I’m really starting to hate everything about this job and the people I work with.

    1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      I don’t have any advice but I can commiserate. I’ve had a similar experience working as an admin/legal assistant. It’s infuriating and I swing between extremes, trying to let things roll off my back and alternately getting wrapped up in my frustration and resentment. I wish more bosses understood how much recognition and awareness of professional development matter for morale and motivation *even for administrative/non-exempt staff*. Sometimes it feels like I’m just treated as an inanimate fixture rather than a person with professional aspirations.

      The thing that really boggles me is that in my last few jobs I’ve been hired at a slightly higher than market rate with the justification being that they expect me to do some higher-level work (which suits me because I need some stimulation and challenge)… and then as the years go by, I get more and more grunt work tossed onto my desk. It’s like over time they forget that I have a college degree, forget about my past professional projects that seemed so impressive when they hired me.

      1. Liz*

        I’m sorry to hear you’re in a similar situation. When I worked in NYC I found, while doing admin work does often position you as the lowest on the totem pole, people used their AAs and EAs and when you had someone that was good, that person was valued.

        I now live in the Greater Philadelphia area and it’s very different, not sure if region is part of it or not. So I’ve tried to be careful when selecting a position and this one, like you mentioned, mentioned high level tasks and project work and the pay was in line with a role that handled more than the basics. The reality though is much different and I’ve tried discussing it directly which hasn’t helped. In my first performance eval my manager offered to write me a recommendation if I wanted to leave. Which of course prompted me to ask her directly if she wanted me to leave. It was one of the most awkward conversations… I rarely bring things up anymore, when I have it she deflects, contradicts herself and has on two occasions said I am being sensitive.

        And like you I go from trying to be grateful for the perks and any good things (like working from home which helps a little), detaching and not letting anything get to me to getting very angry and depressed, feeling very stuck.

        Best of luck to you! Shame we’re in a similar situation but it’s good to know I’m not the only one.

    2. EA in CA*

      It would take a culture shift within your organization to change people’s perspectives on administrative roles. From their past experience with the admin staff they had/have, I’m not surprised they have so little regard for people in that role, since no one previously showed any real value other than completing the most basic of tasks. People who do not know what a truly capable EA can do are blind to how much value they actually bring with their skill set and experience.

      I’m finally in an organization that really understands the value of their administrative staff. But it took a long time and advocating from the CEO’s EA for the others in the organization to respect the profession. I feel that we, in the administrative world, still have a long way to go to be recognized as a valuable contributor to the success of a company.

      I’m sorry I’m not able to provide much by way of advice, except I understand your struggles and agree that it’s hard to keep going why one feels so undervalue and underappreciated.

      1. Liz*

        Totally agree that the whole culture here seems to expect so little, it’s certainly not personal to me. They don’t seem to get it at all. I have often joked that it feels very ‘Mad Men-esque’ here…

        Great that you had an EA that advocated for everyone. That’s another thing here that is missing among the few admins there are, is any sense of teamwork. I help them with a lot of work but it’s always very a dramatic and drawn out process (people want to talk on the phone and not email about basic things and I just don’t have the time or desire to listen to the negativity every day). I guess my previous experiences were the exception and not the rule when working for other people where I of course dealt with people underestimating me but it never came from my immediate managers and team. They always advocated for me, these folks could care less what I do or need, what skills I have, the work is done and that’s all they need.

        Hope your organization continues to improve and maybe be the example for others.

    3. Mellow*

      >How can I stay in a place like this and not let it bother me?

      I don’t think you can, but know that the problem here isn’t you.

      It sounds like your workplace has a very odd definition of your position title. I do understand that the benefits are hard to give up, but plenty of other places have good benefits.

      If you can, it might be time to start looking around. Maybe one way to get through things is to know you’re actively working to go to a far less toxic environment.

      2. Liz*

        Absolutely, and I realized that as I was writing and posing the question. Thank you for the comment. I think there is part of me what wishes this didn’t bother me but truthfully I want to be in an organization where I’m engaged and valued, where people see me and respect me. I keep trying to force myself to be OK with this place and the odd way people are treated and it’s just not for me at all.

        Thanks again for the support!

      3. Kat in VA*

        I agree. It’s not you.

        My org swings the other way – directors, VPs, and C-suites are always commenting about all the “power” that I and the other EA hold. It sounds jokey but they actually mean it, in a weird way. To the point where it makes me kind of uncomfortable like, “Oho, mmhmm, I have alll the power, yeah, sure, right” and the answer is, “But…you do!”

        Admins are valuable. Your org sounds like they don’t value admins. I’d suggest looking around for a different org where you’re treated with decency and professionalism.

        1. Liz*

          Thanks, Kat. That does sound interesting, seems like you are dealing with the other extreme. But thanks for validating what I’ve been feeling… not sure why I’ve been having trouble just accepting this place is the way it is and moving on but it always helps to get other people’s perspectives.

  97. CustServGirl*

    When you’re no longer nice…

    What do you do when your working conditions are so stressful and your days are so busy that you feel like you can no longer be the happy, above-and-beyond coworker you pride yourself on being?

    Work lately has been a sh*tshow, and I’m out of patience. I’m doing everything I can just to keep my work going smoothly, but I don’t like feeling like this.

    1. The Vent-a-lator*

      I don’t know… try to be gracious and make it your gift to the world. Advancing world peace, one action at a time.

    2. YetAnotherUsername*

      Take up a physical contact sport like a martial art. There’s something about punching people in the face and getting punched in the face twice a week that makes the rest of your life seem not so bad.

    3. LGC*

      So…what can you do in the near future? Can you take a couple of days off without too much issue?

      I’m guessing from your username you’re in customer service, which is really stressful. If you can take a mental health day, that might help push the reset button.

      But seriously, that’s rough! Take care of yourself.

  98. LQ*

    I need some advice on …humaning better? I think I do good at supporting the people I work with professionally and getting to know their strengths and develop them. But when they want to just chat about more personal things it’s like my brain glazes over and I couldn’t tell you the names of 95% of the people I work with’s children or spouses or pets of the people who have told them to me. I don’t think to acknowledge someone’s birthday unless they tell me “Today is my birthday.” I feel like I need to start keeping a log of this stuff that I review before meeting people. How do other folks who aren’t inclined to behave this way manage this?

    (Please note, I’ll never push this on anyone EVER. I know there are lots of folks like me here who want to keep work cool and professional, but that’s not everyone and a lot of folks share and clearly want those things acknowledged so I’d like to do a better job of being a better boss and coworker of those folks too.)

    1. valentine*

      I doubt they expect you to remember names. When I talk about my siblings, I just say, “My sibling” because I know people aren’t going to distinguish between them. But if you can remember details, that may help. I think just offering a chance for them to talk works. Dog people are the easiest. One person I know fosters and another I don’t think ever told me their dog’s name, so I can just say, “Any fur-baby stories?” or “How’s the puppy?”

      1. Sam Sepiol*

        I mean i don’t expect most of my friends to keep track of which of my sisters is which. As for birthdays, that’s what outlook is for :)

      2. LQ*

        I can definitely offer a chance, I’m fairly good at being engaged once we’ve started and I think I’m an ok conversational partner. Not like one word deadpan but encouraging and pleasant (I hope). Not always excellent and not great with folks who are quiet. I think that’s good to consider. Thank you!

    2. Combinatorialist*

      I think this is a skill that you can develop and practice. I would start small — pick one or two of the chattiest coworkers and put effort into remembering what they tell you and being invested in those conversations. Take notes of the details after if you need to. Then expand from there.

      I am not particularly chatty, but my fiance and I moved here for my job. It means a lot to me that my boss would ask about him and his job search as we moved to an area where we knew no one.

      1. LQ*

        I absolutely want to develop and practice. I think part of it is I feel like I’m already drowning in stuff I have to develop and practice. (I’m a new manager with a huge strategic load of work and not a ton of support around me and most of the work is new to me besides.) So I look at this and feel like I want to flinch away from even the little I know I should at least start doing. I do think making a note or two after conversations would be good.

    3. Seifer*

      I think it helps to remember the general. Like okay, I don’t know what Fergus’s dog’s name is or what kind of dog or how old the dog is, BUT I remember he has a dog, so I always make sure to ask, “how’s the pup?” And then birthdays, definitely set a calendar reminder. Better if there’s an intranet or something that lists everyone’s birthday and you can just go in and grab the dates from there. My boss will take us out to lunch and then buy the birthday person’s lunch, which is a really nice gesture.

      I’m kind of in the middle on stuff like this, but even people that I don’t like will never know that I don’t like them because I ask after their personal life in general terms. I feel like at work we should all at least be civil and if some people’s definition of civil is me asking about their dog, then I will suck it up and ask about the dog.

      1. LQ*

        I generally do ok at this person has a dog or spouse or child/ren, grandchild or parent that is the thing they talk about. So I was able to get a few folks on the first day of school thing this year which I think was a win.

        We do have birthdays on our intranet. I may come in this weekend and pull all of them into my outlook so I’ve got something.

        I’m good with being civil and suck it up and ask about the dog. (My least favorite person/work enemy is a dog person and I will smile pleasantly and ask about the latest dog show, so yeah, I know.) I’m not good with taking people out to lunch. That’s the one that kills me. I can do 3-4 minutes. But I can’t do 30 minutes, let alone an hour.

    4. Kathenus*

      I think the idea of some notes/log is actually potentially a good strategy. I’m terrible at remembering names, to be more precise, putting names and faces together accurately. I will generally remember faces but can’t remember who they are, and recognize names but not be able to put the right face with them. When I moved into a new neighborhood I literally started righting down my neighbors names as I met them – John and Joan blue house dog Spot, and so on. It’s come in soooo handy. So maybe a personal tidbit or two about people that you write down and can refresh yourself on before a meeting with them could be a good idea.

    5. LGC*

      I’ll often repeat the information back to myself. Or I’ll make associations. Like, I know my boss’s daughters are alphabetical (A is older, B is younger), so that helps. My coworker’s birthday is on a holiday. So on and so forth.

      And I’ll try to be conscious of it! I tend to just launch into work because I tend to be…overly purposeful. So I kind of make small talk another purpose of mine.

      And I think it’s good that you ARE making an effort to remember personal details! I think that most people appreciate it – at least, that’s been my experience. Even if you don’t get it perfect, it’s still appreciated – one of my employees asked if I was racing this weekend, since I mentioned in passing that I was doing a half marathon in the city we work in. (It’s the following weekend.) I’ve felt worse when I mess up myself, but that’s because I’m a perfectionist. (I know, I need to be as kind to myself as I am to others.)

    6. On Hold*

      You can also go vague, based on whatever you do remember. “Hey, you had something big coming up this weekend, right?” and if you kind of let it hang for a sec, a lot of people will fill you in. If not, say what you think it is and they’ll correct you. “Hey you had something big coming up this weekend… some kind of convention, right?”

  99. Narvo Flieboppen*

    Today’s shining example of what not to do to coworkers will definitley be TMI/too gross for some folks so if you keep reading…you were warned.

    The irritatingly clueless coworker from down the hall frequently interrupts my lunch/break times with questions. And just keeps asking even when I request that she waits until I’m back in my office. Today she took it to a new level.

    Background on my life today: My wife & I were up sick most of the night with what we suspect is food poisoning from a meal a couple days ago – the only thing we’ve shared in common all week. Despite getting little sleep and feeling like garbage, we have a huge deadline today and my work is one of the biggest pieces of it. So I dragged myself into the office, let my boss know that I was under the weather and may have to suddenly bail during meetings to run to the restroom.

    Cue Ms. Clueless stopping me in the hall as I am speed walking to the men’s room, with a question. I walk by her saying I’ll follow up when I’m done and just proceed straight into the men’s room. Most adults would figure out this is where you get off the ride, but then we wouldn’t be having story time about it, friends.

    Ms. Clueless proceeded to prop the men’s room door open and started trying to ask her work questions as I’m in the stall shouting at her to shut the door because I can’t talk right now. She continues to just talk louder over the top of me and finishes her questions. Myresponse was neither fruitlessly telling her to go awaynor was it me giving her actual answers. My response was the magnum opus of my bowels as they unleashed a thunderous gaseous percussion paired with the liquid susurrus of a fecal symphony which, driven by the specialized porcelain acoustic resonance, echoed to coworkers up and down the hallway through the propped open men’s room door. Ms. Clueless finally clued in. Perhaps it was the noxious odor which spurred her brain to action? She fled the scene, finally allowing the restroom door to close.

    But even here, she didn’t stop! Ha ha. No, she had the gall to complain to management about my lack of internal customer service in this particular situation. My manager indicated I was ill and she should just follow up with me back at my desk. Apparently she feels I was quite rude and could have taken the time to answer her question before going into the restroom.

    When I learned about her complaint, I decided this was a step too far to go unanswered, and chose to email Ms. Clueless’s manager and HR to complain about her holding the men’s room door open to shout questions at me while I was sitting on a toilet in the stall. Waiting to see what the fallout might be from this debacle, though it had damned well better be none for me.

    1. valentine*

      my lack of internal customer service in this particular situation.
      Tell Ms. Clueless (I guess persistence is her thing) you were serving an even more demanding internal customer and any delay would have ruined her shoes.

      Love the description.

    3. Close Bracket*

      Holy, uh, shit! She held the restroom door open! She held the rest room door open!SHE HELD THE RESTROOM DOOR OPEN!!!!! I. can’t. even.

      You need to have a larger talk about Ms. Clueless and her lack of boundaries regarding breaks and whether her expectations are reasonable. Are you salaried? If you are, then answering questions on breaks might be expected. If not, she needs to wait until you are back on the clock.

      She held the bathroom door open *smh*

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        Oh, I’ve tried discussing the lack of boundaries. Also, I am hourly, and I have made it very clear on my lunch that I’m not answering questions because I’m also not getting paid. None of that stops Ms. Clueless.

        She’s the type of person who has done the same task 5-10 times per month for 3 years and still needs assistance with it. Every. Single. Time. Say, for example, filling out a PO with the name of the vendor, their contact info, list of what you intend to buy, and prices. Very clearly not rocket surgery.

        I am hopeful this may be the breaking point, since she has a new boss who was only hired about a month ago, and who is going to have to respond to this somehow.

      2. BadWolf*

        Does your restroom have urinals? If so, super extra bad for you and anyone who might have been at a urinal.

      3. Kat in VA*

        I mean, I’ve jogged along with my boss as he heads to the men’s room if I have some crucial question – and because some days it’s the ONLY time I can get 30 seconds of his attention.

        I definitely, definitely stop short of the hallways of the men’s room, much definitely at the damn DOOR of the restroom.

        That’s just…crazy!

    4. Goose Lavel*

      I have been in your shoes with explosive diarrhea at work and trying to meet a deadline while at the same time dealing with frequent bathroom trips.

      I cannot imagine someone so self-centered and rude that they thought they could violate the bathroom boundary zone and shout question at you while you’re unleashing your boiling bowels from hell.

      I vote this best post of the day! Please update as soon as possible.

    6. Rebecca*

      Here’s a case where I would tell this clueless silly person UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES will you EVER do that to me again. How awful for you! I cannot even imagine anything so important that this would be warranted.

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        That’s the thing with her questions, though, it’s basically never important. Most of the time it’s because she cannot handle something as simple as going onto a website to renew a magazine subscription and she just needs help because it’s so haaaaaaaard.

        I have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars of contracts and billing on my desk to resolve. Whether she gets her $20 magazine renewal done today or a week from now is basically inconsequential. Worst case scenario is someone has to pick up an issue at newsstand prices and get reimbursed. None of of it is business critical in any way. In her mind, though, it’s worth chasing me down the hall about it.

        1. Aurélia*

          Do you feel like there is anyone at work that she would actually listen to with a reality-check in…idk… professionalism? Human decency?

    7. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      I. AM. FLABBERGASTED! Unreal, I’m actually glad you, um, broke the dam because it sounds like that was the only way to get her to stop!!

    8. Thany*

      This story is amazing and I cannot wait for an update. Who in their right mind would HOLD THE DOOR open for someone who OBVIOUSLY needs the bathroom? I just can’t. Serious lack of boundaries. Hopefully her manager will deal with this especially after this situation.

    9. irene adler*

      Dang! Kinda wish things were coming out the other end and you’d ralphed all over her outfit.

      ‘Oh, sorry about your outfit! You were saying….”

    10. Mellow*

      >chose to email Ms. Clueless’s manager and HR to complain about her holding the men’s room door open to shout questions at me while I was sitting on a toilet in the stall.

      I am in a situation right now where I could complain far and wide but feel doing so would jeopardize my job.

      As such, may I say, you are my hero for today and all of September!

    11. !*

      I’m hoping your (very warranted) complaints back about Ms Clueless opens up a larger can of worms, namely her completely incompetence to perform her job without roping you into it again and again. Screw her.

    12. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Minor update: HR manager caught me on my way out to let me know the situation was being dealt with and that one way or another, it will never happen again. She wouldn’t tell me more, but I am hopeful Ms. Clueless is now trending towards Ms. Clued-In.

    13. Amethystmoon*

      Holy crap. Wow. Where I work, this for sure would get someone written up. I cannot believe someone did this. Wow, does she think she won’t face any repercussions? I for sure want to hear what happens to her.

  100. BlueFeather*

    Should approving an early leave/long lunch/late arrival depend on what someone is doing during that time ( this is not using PTO time – these are salaried workers asking to leave early or come in late to handle personal matters.).

    I don’t have an issue if it’s a Dr. appointment, or a family emergency, but an employee today asked if he could leave half way through the day to run an errand that could be done on the weekend (getting tires changed). There is a piece of our work that requires desk coverage, but the other staff can make up for 1 person being out.

    Our company has very strict minimum hours even for salaried people (which I agree is crap, but they make sure everyone knows what’s required before starting), but it’s only sporadically monitored. If he had asked for a long lunch, or to leave an hour or two early, I would have approved it, but this feels like he’s trying to find a way to work a half day. If I would have approved leaving early for something else, am I obligated to approve it for this?

    1. valentine*

      You’re not obligated, but I would allow it if his work’s good. If you want to be strict, just let employees know things need to be at the level of emergency or doctor’s appointment to qualify. That’s not letting people manage their time, though.

    2. CatCat*

      You’re not obligated to approve, but what is the actual work problem here that would be addressed by denying the request? Is there a pattern or something here that is disrupting work?

      1. PB*

        This is where I am. If this person is requesting a long lunch frequently (as in, weekly), or if they’re inconveniencing someone else, then maybe push back. If it’s occasional and there isn’t a major impact, let it go. Yes, you can get your tires changed another time, but there might be a good reason, like needing to get it done before heading out of town after work. If it’s a pattern, however, then maybe take a deeper look.

    3. WellRed*

      Please don’t get in the position of judging what YOU THINK constitutes appropriate reasons for leaving early or whatever. Getting tires changed on the weekend may not work for him. I’m assuming if he stayed late he would not be rewarded for?

    4. JimmyJab*

      No, it shouldn’t matter, and I wouldn’t even ask what the reason was if otherwise this employee isa good, valuable worker.

    5. Mama Bear*

      This is why a lot of people don’t even say what. He could have simply said, “I have an appointment”. If you would grant the request without knowing what it was, then grant it even though you know it’s a car care appointment. IMO better to have him change his tires soon than be late or absent unexpectedly due to a blow out and/or accident.

    6. Close Bracket*

      “Should approving an early leave/long lunch/late arrival depend on what someone is doing during that time”

      No, it should be based on whether the business can handle someone being out at that time.

    7. Ann Perkins*

      I don’t think you should be concerned about what he’s doing, but if it’s for a half day, it should go towards a half day of PTO. Half days here and there could add up quickly.

    8. YetAnotherUsername*

      I don’t think it takes half a day to get your tires changed. More like an hour max. Why can’t he come back to work after? Or book the appointment for later in the day? 4 hours is a long time to take off for a task that takes an hour.

      If your work is 2 or 3 hours away from a tire change place then yes I think you should grant it. As others said he might have good reason it has to be done that day. But if there is a tire change place close by then tell him he needs to rearrange the appointment so he’s only losing an hour or two not a whole half day, or make up the time on a north er day, or use a half days leave.

  101. Thany*

    My program manager from my former toxic job got fired! I heard through the grapevine through friends who still work there that she wasn’t allowing people overtime (nonprofit, but our roles were always overworked and understaffed), and someone finally sued over it. It seems from a few colleagues who recently left that they’ve been tracking this for awhile (one colleague specifically said they asked her about it during her exit interview).
    I feel like I should feel a little bad. But I really don’t. She made my time miserable there with micromanaging and not accepting any kind of feedback.

  102. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from Not the Hellmouth! Things here continue to be very non-Hellmouth, but still fairly property-managementy. If you’ve read any of the updates that include GUMPTION Girl, the good news is that she has finally stopped coming to the office/pulling the doors and trying to get in after we are closed. However, she still occasionally wanders the open courtyards on the property like a dressed-to-the-nines ghost after hours. I think she is trying to make friends with residents so they will invite her to use the pool (even if you aren’t a pool person, our pool is REALLY awesome). Meanwhile, my boss has started interviewing (non-bonkers) people for the other open leasing spot. The most recent interview was a girl who came in wearing what I guess were very dressy skintight red yoga pants paired with a short top, Instagram ready hair and make-up, and a reluctance to be friendly to anyone other than my male boss. She had zero interest in talking to any potential future coworkers, but massive interest in our amenity areas and if she got to use them (see above: our pool is awesome). I… kind of hope she doesn’t get it. I’m really hoping that a team oriented person with a good personality gets hired (because they need to be nice to everyone, and also I’m going to have to spend a loooooooot of time with them).

    In Rich People Can Be the Worst news, a number of our residents banded together and kicked up enough of us fuss to have the snake policy changed. Now all reported snakes are to be killed on sight. R.I.P. Dan the Snake, the very first snake to fall victim to the new policy. His only crime was loving toads and a warm spot of pavement near the office. I’m pretty upset about the whole thing… I don’t think we need to be killing non-nuisance living creatures to appease hysterics. I don’t see anyone going after squirrels or bunnies, you know? Also, the kind of (totally harmless) snakes being killed happen to be the kind that keep bad, poisonous snakes away/in check, so… way to go, hysterical residents who live next to a creek but are freaked out by the kind of wildlife that lives next to creeks and think their net worth means that creek wildlife should just cease to exist.

    I’m still waiting for my interview to be scheduled for that state job, but upon checking with my contact I discovered that the director has been slammed and hasn’t finished looking over the other applications so I am not freaking out about it. I am, however, about to kick the general job hunt back into gear—I took a small break to recover a bit and readjust to a more sane, less gut churning and soul crushing environment. While I am happy to be here for as long as it takes to find something outside of property management, I don’t want to be here so long that I have to put it on my resume and explain that yes, I am looking for a job kind of soon after starting at a new place, but no I am not a job hopper property management is just kind of crazy.

    1. Bee's Knees*

      Glad your new job is going well! I also would not want to work with yoga pants, I don’t feel like she would look up from her phone all that often.

      And I’m sorry about Dan. Personally, I have way less problems with snakes than I do with squirrels. You might want to look into what the local wildlife agency thinks about it, whether they have someone who could come remove them from the property, or if there are rules surrounding what you can do to them.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Poor Dan. We had been moving reported snakes back to the creek and recommending Animal Control (who would also move them back to the creek) if it was after hours, but that would not satisfy the bloodthirstiest of the residents.

        I am hoping Yoga Pants gets passed on… my manager is interviewing another candidate right now. On the plus side, she seems extremely sweet. On the minus side, she seems INCREDIBLY shy (not great for a front facing role that involves sales and customer service) and possibly not bright (which could just be a false projection because she is so shy). It’s hard to find people who are a good fit for this kind of position in this town for some reason.

        1. willow19*

          Maybe you could hire Yoga Pants Lady to pick up all the snakes and throw them back into the creek. Convince her that is one of the “amenities”

    2. Anon Librarian*

      Wait. What? Is it legal to kill wildlife in your area? In most U.S. states, it is not. That’s why we have hunting and fishing laws involving permits, seasons, and a list of permitted species and sizes. In some places, there are some animals you can kill any time. But even if that’s the case with watersnakes, I think a wildlife agency could have your back and help you to develop a plan to keep the snakes and residents from seeing each other (like a good barrier). They could also help with education – assuring resisents that watersnakes are helpful and not dangerous. I mean, this has gotta fall outside the scope of what residents can make happen. They can’t be forcing you all to kill animals for them.

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        In my area, at least, pretty much any animal living in/near a waterway is 99% guaranteed to be protected by law. I can’t even fill in the waterlogged ditch between the two parcels of my property because of those protections. I’d suggest a quiet, or even anonymous, word with your local wildlife management agency.

        I’m not particularly fond of snakes, but I’m pretty sure I’d choose most snakes over the people who complained enough to get this policy put in place.

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Right? Like, I didn’t want to hang out with Dan the Banded Watersnake or anything, but I had no problem being able to see him outside (where snakes belong) from my office window. If the residents start spotting the poisonous kinds of snakes because all of the good snakes that chase them off got killed, well… it will kind of serve them right.

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Well, fortunately it isn’t me personally (just no way), but it stinks that maintenance has to do it.

        1. irene adler*

          In some places, the fire department will remove snakes from areas where they should not be. And then return them to where they should be.
          Usually with no deaths incurred.

      3. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Honestly, I think I’m going to go with Narvo Flieboppen’s suggestion and have an anonymous word with the local wildlife agency. I really hate this dumb policy.

    3. !*

      Do you and your other coworkers have any input on hires? Or could you ask to be included to ensure a good fit with the rest of the team? The ONE time I was not included in the hiring process, my current asshat coworker was hired, he’s pretty much exactly the same as the guy who *was* included in the hiring process but who was fired for a security breach. I can only hope the same occurs with asshat.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Sometimes the boss will ask what impression we got of someone, but we never got to offer feedback on Yoga Pants. Fingers crossed a better candidate comes along!

  103. A Simple Narwhal*

    It’s about time for me to start writing my year-end evaluation, and a non-insignificant part of it is about the training and development we’ve done this year. I started the year off strong and put together a training program for myself that I (and my manager) was really excited about and started following it. But we ended up losing about half our team in March and we’ve been in survival mode pretty much ever since, meaning I have had zero time to do any further training. Is it worth mentioning/how do I frame this on my review? I don’t want to sound like I’m making excuses, but my team is in a semi-constant state of drowning – there just aren’t the hours anymore to put into training when our real work keeps piling up (the missing people have yet to be replaced).

    Have any advice for how to frame a self review in general when you’re mostly trying to just stay afloat?

    1. LQ*

      Talk about staying afloat skills. There are things you’ve learned about prioritization, and collaboration and trusting your team that you can call development stuff.

    2. Garland Not Andrews*

      Be matter of fact about the training. Your boss is well aware of the fact that you are just barely keeping your nose above water. He/She likely really appreciates the work ethic that is keeping your department afloat.

      Setting aside the nice, but not absolutely essential tasks in favor of the absolutely positively MUST tasks when necessary is a positive trait. Spin it that way on your write up. It has been an absolutely crazy year, but you are still managing to keep all the balls in the air and the world has not ended because you dropped something.

      This has been an amazing year for you. You can get dumped into a bad situation and keep things together. Go you!

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Thank you so much for this really kind and supportive comment! It’s been a bit of a rough go as of late, and it really means a lot to hear this. :-)

  104. John S*

    Hello, I’m a 27 year old college graduate. I graduated with a degree in biochemistry, but haven’t been able to find a job in my field. I have over 80k in private student loans, so I was forced to take a minimum wage job at a warehouse. Now, it’s 5 years after my graduation and I work for just above minimum wage at a grocery store. I live with my parents due to my low pay and student loan payments.

    Since I’m 5 years out of school and have no relevant experience in my field, is my degree useless at this point? Will I ever get a “real” job? I’ve been severely depressed, I’m completely humiliated, and on the verge of giving up. Can someone please give me some advice? Is it over for me?

    1. Auntie Social*

      Would you be willing to teach high school? With a science degree I think you can even get emergency credentials.

    2. PantaloonsOnFire*

      Sorry to hear you’ve had a rough time in your work life. Here’s some thoughts:

      A) You are definitely already working a real job—you have been for five years. Maybe it’s not a job that pays a living wage, but a job nonetheless. You are 100% allowed to dream bigger, but please also give yourself credit for the hard work you are already doing, and for the real, tangible, skills you have demonstrated working there.
      B) Your degree does not expire. And it doesn’t become worthless if it doesn’t lead to a degree in your field of study. Most college graduates do not go into a career field directly related to their field of study. And there are a huge number of employers who continue to see a BA/BS in ANY field as a benefit.
      C) If you can get access to any kind of mental health services, please do. Trained professionals will be of more benefit to you in this situation than any friendly message board ever will.

      Those things being said, if you feel up to it, start making a plan: Are you absolutely set on forging a career in biochemistry? If so, keep applying to those entry-level jobs and paid internships. See if there are associations and biochemical societies you can become affiliated with. If you know anyone working in a career similar to the one you like, ask them for advice. Are there any projects or free classes you can take on in your free time to help you feel fresher in the field?

      If you are open to other lines of work, figure out what they are. And then decide how the specific skills you have used in warehouse work and grocery work are relevant to those kinds of positions–because if you have been working for five years there are definitely relevant skills you’ve demonstrated, whether it’s initiative or reliability or problem solving or customer service or even leadership. Then see if you can volunteer a couple hours a month doing that kind of work or learning a new skill that might also be relevant to the jobs you want. Apply to jobs diligently.

      Being stuck is hard, but it’s not permanent and it doesn’t decrease your value as a person or an employee!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Most college graduates do not go into a career field directly related to their field of study.

        Exactly. Most of my cohorts and I sure didn’t. It took me eight (8!) years to get a job that specifically called for my journalism degree. Almost two years later, I’m still using it and couldn’t be happier.

        OP, if biochemistry is your thing and you absolutely want to use your degree, try to find sideways positions you can get that would help you eventually use the biochemistry degree.

    3. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      Have you looked into some sort of professional certificate/training that’s related to your degree and would be applicable to the type of job you would like in your field? Something that might give you an edge and demonstrate that you’re keeping up with the industry?

      Other than that, networking– see if your college has an alumni database and contact others who are working in the types of jobs you want to do. Reach out not with the aim of getting an interview but letting them know that you want to get into the field and would like input and advice about how to update your credentials to make yourself more appealing to employers.

      Good luck, I definitely don’t think your degree is useless just yet!

      1. Perfectly Cromulent Name*

        This! My husband graduated with a good degree (Mechanical Engineering) at a bad time. He ended up getting a Master’s degree while he looked for a job and was able to defer his loans while he was a student. (Note: He did not pay for his MS- he got a stipend and tuition wavier for being a GA. I would not recommend this route if you’re paying out of pocket, as doing this did not mean he’s necessarily a job at the end, it was networking and keeping up in his field while he waited to find a job.) He had the same worries as you did, but it turned out okay in the end.

        1. Clisby*

          Nobody in a tech field should be paying for an MS. If the college/university won’t pay you to come, they don’t really want you.

          I will readily say that I don’t know that this applies to liberal arts fields, and I think it likely doesn’t. But engineering, computer science, some of the hard sciences – if they want you, they’ll pay you to come.

          1. Perfectly Cromulent Name*

            I have an MA in English that I did not pay for. :) It can happen, but you have to find a school that will do it for non-Ph.D candidates.

        2. John S*

          But your husband had a useful degree. Engineering is extremely in-demand. Biochemistry is largely useless.

          1. YetAnotherUsername*

            “Biochemistry is largely useless.”

            I guess you’ve never needed medicine in your life.

            Sheesh.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              I think what that person was trying to say is that biochemistry is an extremely hard degree to put to use without additional schooling/training. There are more engineering jobs than there are in biochem – it’s very niche.

    4. Purple*

      Hi John,
      My sister had a slow start to her working life too (“real” job after 30), and I may be her sister, but I promise no unreasonable bias when I tell you she is no slouch, that’s for sure, just bad timing.

      One thing she did, and I think it helped her, was to continue her education slowly. Community college credits, other certificates, volunteer and lower level work in or adjacent to the field she wanted to be in. When she had her opportunity to get in, at least she could show that she hadn’t been sitting still.

      I know this might be the last thing you want to do considering your loan status, but she did a 1 year post-bac program to turn her science BS into a BSN, and had almost no problem finding a job. The sciences are hard without a graduate degree, but nurses are in demand, so you could get a better paying job, at least, practical experience, and some success until you figure out what’s next.

      Don’t quit when you have a setback. Fall down 7 times, stand up 8.

    5. irene adler*

      There’s lots of different industries you can work in with the biochem degree.

      You can apply for an internship with a biotech company for lab-work-related jobs.

      Or, you can look into other fields, like Quality Assurance. This would require a background in biochem, plus some training in QA. Then you could look at QA jobs at biotech companies (pharm, medical device, IVD, therapeutics). Jobs would entail auditing, or assuring processes and paperwork are in compliance with regulations, etc.

      Look at ASQ.org and read up on the various certifications, or look at the different divisions, like biomedical. There may be a place for you to post a request for some guidance re: what career paths you could follow using the biochem degree + some coursework in QA.

      Might look for websites pertaining to various other professional organizations for ideas. Food science might be another avenue. Try googling various key words for different industries, find the professional organizations that serve said industry and then visit them with questions on career paths.

      1. John S*

        The problem is nobody will hire me at this point. Even for QA jobs and other entry level positions. I’m 5 years out of school with no relevant experience. Why would anyone hire me with all these red flags instead of a fresh graduate? I can’t even get an interview for the most basic positions in my field and related fields. I think it’s time for me to end my life. Thank you for all the comments

        1. Abraxan Horses*

          Hi John,

          I’m so sorry you’re having such a hard time.

          All hope is not lost! Just because no one has hired you up until this point doesn’t mean nobody will. I would really recommend trying to do some volunteering and networking in the fields you’re interested in. Even if something seems only tangentially related, putting yourself out there and meeting new people really can allow you to foster new connections which can lead to new opportunities. I definitely found networking and volunteering were crucial to helping me find a job in my field after I graduated, even if you only have time for a few hours a week.

          Also, please consider using any kind of mental health service you have access to, be it through a family doctor, walk-in clinic, or even a crisis hotline. As a previous commenter said, they’ll be much more equipped to help you through the mental health side of this.

        2. Quandong*

          John, your comments about ending your life are very concerning to me. You deserve support and help. Please contact a helpline or crisis line as soon as you can – they exist to help people like you who are feeling suicidal.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Hi John, this isn’t something that this forum is able to handle here, but there are people who are trained to help you. Please call the National Suicide Hotline tonight (or tomorrow if that’s when you see this): 1-800-273-8255. They will help.

    6. Mama Bear*

      There are also fields where having expertise in something specific will be an asset. What else can you do with your skills? Are you open to things like substitute teaching? One of my child’s teachers never intended to be one, but kind of ended up in education, decided it was a good fit, and got the required training. I actually love that because it shows my kid that not all paths are A to B. Many many many people take a wandering path. With your grocery store job, use that transience/flexibility to take on a PT job that might help you in a new direction. Try not to allow your job title to define your worth.

      It is not over. Grandma Moses started painting in her 70s and Mike Rowe’s mom published her first book in her 80s. Keep trying.

      1. John S*

        I’m open to anything, the problem is my student loan. I pay around $950 a month in private student loans. If I can’t find anything above $20/hr, then I’m likely going to end my life. I’ll never be able to move out of my parent’s house, start a family, travel, save for retirement or anything. There’s no point continuing at that point.

        1. On Hold*

          Have you consolidated your loans? If not, that can really help with monthly payments. For instance, I dropped from about $450/month (making minimum payments on 8 different loans) to $135/month (minimum payment on 1 loan). The normal consolidation process does a weighted average of your interest amounts, so you are not going to get gouged on interest if you do this.

          I’m actually in progress on refinancing my student loan, which will drop the interest by about 2%. From the paperwork I did, you can do this if you are coming from a single consolidated loan, or if you have multiple loans. I’m going to drop a link to my credit union’s student loan page in the next comment so this one won’t get caught in moderation – if you don’t like the looks of them, there are other options.

          It sounds like you are in a really tough place, and I want to add my voice to everyone else’s – reach out to a hotline or local emergency mental health. Job hunting is full of missed opportunity and rejection and I’m sorry that you’re hurting over it. If you choose to stick around, I know that there are other paths out there for you. I hope that you stay and explore them.

        2. anon for this*

          Hi John,
          Right now you sound like you’re in the kind of mental space where any practical suggestions or opinions offered to you from us about your career will automatically make you think of all the obstacles in the way. I have been in this space myself in the past, which is why I can recognize it. Let me see briefly that no, your career is not over. You still can do many things. And you will one day get a job that challenges you and excites you. (It will also bore you and frustrate you sometimes, but that’s how jobs go.)

          However, I don’t think you should be concentrating on jobs right now. You have twice expressed a desire to end your life. Please, please call immediately a specific hotline or a friend or family member you trust. If you are in the US, you can call the Samaritans (they have different local numbers, I think, and are also in the UK/Ireland) or the suicide prevention hotline at 1-800-273-8255. You can also go to your nearest emergency room.

          Please believe me when I say that your mind, which is telling you that everything is hopeless, that nothing will change, that you’re better off dead – your mind is WRONG right now. It can’t see clearly. Please call someone to help you and to talk to you, so that you can get through this time safely until your brain fog starts to clear. Again, I have been here. I have felt just like you. It’s a horrible feeling and it feels so real, but it isn’t.

        3. Quest*

          Hi John,

          Another voice here chiming in to say that all is NOT lost. As long as there is life, there is hope. You will find a way out of this, even though I understand it appears hopeless. It is not. Things will work out,I promise. Please get help now, call the suicide helpline. You can likely put your loans on hold. You can try to get a volunteering role at a lab or at a school, if you would like to gain Biochem experience and would like to utilize your degree. Where are you located? Which state?

        4. Oh, so anon for this*

          John,

          I hope you have already reached out and gotten some help, but I wanted to add one more thought.

          Depression lies.

          I say this as someone who is surviving with depression. When your inner voice tells you that you’ll never be able to get a good job, move out of your parents’ house, pay off or pay down your student loans, or any of the other worthy goals you listed? That is depression’s voice talking, and depression lies to you.

          Sometimes all you can do is hang on by your fingernails and say, “No. Depression, you are a lying liar who lies, and anything you are telling me to do is the wrong thing to do. Even if I don’t know what the right thing to do is, I do know that if Depression is suggesting that I do something, then that something is a bad, bad idea. Maybe all I can do today is not do whatever Depression is suggesting. And that’s OK.”

          Depression also waxes and wanes. If hanging on and just not doing anything that Depression thinks is a good idea is all you can manage today, or this week, or even this month, that doesn’t mean that that’s all you’ll ever be able to do. Some days, even breathing is a victory. Some days, getting dressed and leaving the house is a victory. Making it to the job you have now, and doing it well enough to keep it? Big damn victory. Gathering your courage up and reaching out for help? In a lot of ways, that’s the biggest victory you can have, because it’s the win that opens the door to the possibility of every other victory. And you just did that.

          I hope you’re able to get the help you need, and I hope that you’re able to hang on and get through this.

        5. Ramblin’ Ma’am*

          Hi John. I have been thinking about you all day. Please take the advice of other commenters and reach out for help. What you are feeling right now is temporary, even if it doesn’t seem like it.

  105. Yankee Expat*

    Asking people who work in higher ed:
    One of our longtime faculty members (50+ years!) is officially retiring next semester. Our department chair is starting to put together ideas for how to commemorate his years of teaching, all at the same school. We could do dinner/reception at a nice place, or schedule a speaker to pay tribute. How does your school/department honor longtime faculty when they retire? (Note: a lot depends on this individual’s health and stamina at the time we honor him, he is dealing with a chronic illness, hence the retirement).

    1. fposte*

      We’re strictly in-house–catered reception onsite during the business day, department chair speaks, maybe dean; sometimes open mic for other colleagues and students attending. Gifts can be traditional watch/clock kind of things or more pertinent to areas of study, and are usually engraved.

    2. JessP*

      Check in with the library/libraries’ special collections and archives; they may have older photos, press releases, newspaper articles, etc you could make copies of to use for decorations/invitations/a slideshow/whatever.

      We just have a potluck lunch disguised as a regular meeting, with a cake and give them flowers or something.

    3. Gidget*

      Depending on the prestige of the person my department did the whole range. For one professor we turned the annual awards ceremony into a retirement party as well. For another, they invited a whole bunch of alumni back for a mini-symposium. Others have just disappeared into the ether.

    4. Combinatorialist*

      In my field, it is standard to have “birthday conferences” for big name professors turning 60/70/80. These are usually fairly small — the speakers are often the academic descendants of the faculty, etc. Maybe you could do a small “retirement” conference.

    5. Zephy*

      I’ve only been at my higher ed institution for a year, but we did have one longtime professor retire during my time here so far. She got called out and given a round of applause at the staff Christmas party (catered by campus dining, during the workday). I’m on the administrative side, not in academics, so I don’t know if her department did anything else for her.

    7. Reliquary*

      In very similar circumstances, we recently did a lovely dinner/reception on campus (in-house catering did an amazing job), to which we invited colleagues both current and retired, former students (esp. those in academia), and administrators (both current and retired).

      We asked the honoree to help us with the invitation list so that important folks were not overlooked. The scheduled speakers were all representative of a particular constituency, like a former provost representing the upper admin, a former dean representing the college-level admin, the chair representing the department, a former student (now a professor at another college) representing former students, etc.

      A festschrift is also nice, but that’s usually organized by colleagues in the retiree’s subfield who are not local.

  106. AvonLady Barksdale*

    A co-worker of mine, in the same role, has been having a very tough time lately. She’s needed some backup. Fine, I am happy to help, I offer as much as I can, no biggie. She has needed A LOT of help (tons of projects at once), and all of the extra work falls to me. I do not resent her for this one iota; I’m in a slower period and I know she would do the same for me, and when I say she’s having a tough time, I mean she’s in a situation where pieces of her personal life keep falling down around her and have done for way too long. She can’t catch a break and it’s in my power to give her one, so I am happy to do it.

    What sticks in my craw is that I am not the only other person in this role. The third one cannot perform the tasks that my co-worker and I can, which means that when one of us needs help, we can’t go to them. While there are some parts that are proprietary to our company, there are also parts that anyone should know how to do (like editing a PowerPoint deck). This person has been in this role for well over a year and it’s not entry level. Basically, we’re in a situation where if I’m out or sick and my co-worker is out or sick, we cannot rely on the other person with our title to step in, nor does it seem like the third person has taken any steps to learn how to do some of these things. For my part, when faced with a task that I don’t know how to do, I try do it as often as I can so I can learn it, so that’s part of why I resent this person. We have one other person in the company who can help, but he’s swamped with his own stuff and was promoted out of this role, so while he’s willing, I don’t like to ask. (He does step in sometimes because he thinks this situation is No Good.)

    I don’t know if upper management knows about this third person’s limitations. Worse, I don’t know if upper management would actually care if they did know. I am so demoralized by this. There are a lot of things about my current job that are good, but the things that are bad are really bad. I am not the greatest some times, but it’s hard to get motivated to be at my best when I see someone else get opportunities and praise for being in the same role when that person can’t edit a simple document (which has to be done quite a lot for our work). I’m looking, but in the meantime… sigh.

    1. valentine*

      nor does it seem like the third person has taken any steps to learn how to do some of these things.
      Since you suspect management may not care, this person is right not to do extra work (in their spare time?) so they can do more extra work just for the sake of camaraderie. Coverage is on your manager, so address that with them.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        It’s not “extra work”. This is part of the job that this person should know how to do. For example: we have a new software system. I worked in it as much as I could– with some help from trainers, naturally– until I felt comfortable using it. This person did not and refuses to use it. When this person is tasked with doing certain things as part of a project, it always gets handed off to someone else (sometimes me, with the excuse that they “don’t have time” or are “tied up with other things). As far as I’m concerned, it should not be acceptable to call three people a team and expect them to have the same skills when one person is significantly lacking.

        1. valentine*

          The extra work is learning PowerPoint just to cover for your coworker and you. It sounds like it’s been going on long enough to show your manager, assuming they know what’s going on, is fine with it. I also took your not having already appealed to your manager as a sign you think they’ll disagree that this guy should be leveling up.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      It might be helpful to ask the manager if this third coworker could be “trained” in (basic skills and requirements of the position) since the rest of you are overwhelmed and can’t do those things for her anymore and could use help yourselves. It calls attention to the fact that she doesn’t know how to do basic parts of her job and thus isn’t doing them.

  107. Excel Slayer*

    I wanted to know people’s experience of working for small businesses, specifically how frequently in your experience small business owners add personally errands for them to your duties (e.g. of the walk my dog and do my yardwork kind).

    My partner’s experience of people he knows is 100% of them do – I’m curious if it’s actually that common or if the people he knows of are just terrible at running businesses.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I worked for one small business and I never was asked to do any of those things. However, I was working retail where I had to be there all day. I do think it really depends on the style of business.

    2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      One of my coworkers deals with the Grand Boss’s medical reimbursements, edits his daughter’s graduation slideshows, etc. It horrifies me and if those tasks ever find their way to my desk I will revolt.

      I’ve witnessed this kind of thing is a couple other small business workplaces where I’ve worked… it only seems to happen when the staff person is over the top people-pleasing and doesn’t know how to set boundaries. (To the detriment of all their coworkers because then the boss thinks that kind of thing is appropriate.)

    3. Jamie*

      I worked for three family business, ranging between $15-$100 million in revenue. In all of them not only were employees sent to their homes regularly for cleaning, yardwork, etc. but expenses for people who didn’t even work at the company (cell phones, company cars, car insurance, etc.) all ran through the business.

      Nothing like needing the office admin to help with actual work that is her job, but she can’t because she’s addressing invitations to the owner’s grandkids birthday party, or when the facilities guy isn’t available because he’s driving one of the managers back and forth to work because manager can’t drive due to a DUI.

      The office cleaning staff were surprised to find one of the married managers in the bed of one of the owners once…and surprise, it wasn’t kept quiet.

      1. Excel Slayer*

        Oh my gosh, that’s terrible!

        I’ve definitely noticed with these sorts of companies it seems to correlate with poor life/work boundaries in general.

        1. Jamie*

          Yes, and they all described their employees as “family.”

          I know others here have had better experiences with that phrasing, but IME it’s never meant any kind of family of which I wanted to be a member.

      2. Bilateralrope*

        Personal expenses of people not working there going through the business ?

        I wonder if they are doing their taxes correctly.

        1. Hamburke*

          Could still be marking those expenses as member draws. I do bookkeeping for small businesses and that’s how I handle those types of expenses. Owner has his kids on the cell phone plan? First line is a business expense the rest is member draw.

    4. gumby*

      I have worked for small businesses before <5 employees and so have my friends. None of us have ever experienced having to run personal errands for the owners.

    5. Sydney*

      I’ve only worked in small businesses (not on purpose, just how it worked out), and have never been asked to run personal errands. Not sure if I’m just lucky, or if there’s something about me that says, “Don’t ask me to do that stuff for you.”

      A few of my employers definitely lacked some personal/professional boundaries. Mostly oversharing, prying into your personal life because “we’re all family here”, blurring lines of friend/employee, letting lazy/incompetent employees get away with things because they’ve gotten too close, etc., but they didn’t take it as far as requesting personal errands.

    6. Coverage Associate*

      My mother has a small business. I used to work for her, so I have a good sense of what she asked of non family staff. Asking an employee to run errands comes with extra liability, so that happened less than once a year. But she does occasionally have staff do things an EA might do, like cancel a personal reservation.

      1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

        In my experience EA’s don’t do that sort of thing (cancel a personal reservation) unless sh*t is hitting the fan at the office and it’s a crunch where the executive literally doesn’t have time to take care of their personal business. If that’s the sort of support a person needs regularly, they need a personal assistant– or they need to be upfront and explicit with the person they intend to hire for that job about personal tasks being on the menu.

        1. Kat in VA*

          It depends. I work for a decent sized company, and sometimes I’ll handle personal stuff for my execs (setting up a car detailing appointment, driving bossman or a director to the airport because I like driving my car, that sort of thing) because I don’t mind. If I’m buried, they don’t ask.

          I do deal with things like personal travel – but not setting it up. Since some of my execs are cleared, I have to fill out paperwork for any OCONUS travel to be run through proper security channels with the federal government. That’s a condition of working there though, and not really personal.

          But mowing lawns, doing kids’ party invitations, stuff like that? Yeah, no way.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My dad owned a small business, I worked for him AND lived at home, and he never even asked me to run personal errands for him, let alone any of his other employees.

  108. Stephen!*

    Just general job/job search woes that can be mostly summarized as ugh, so if you would like to add your discontent in the form of noises, feel free to do so.

  109. AnotherLibrarian*

    I’ve just started in my new position at a small historical teapot collection. The job of Head Teapot Historian has been open for 7 years and I am the first person they have been able to hire, after two failed searches and lots of budget issues. Here’s the problem I am facing at the moment.

    Because no one has been in this role for so long, people keep approaching me saying how happy they are that I am here and also how soon will I be able to fix X or provide access to the hidden collection of spoutmolds or create Y. I’m feeling that expectations are so high, but our staff and budget have been cut so much in the last five years, I don’t think half of what people expect is possible.

    I’m sort of freaking out about all the pressure and it’s only week one! Any advice on both how to manage the stress of everything “counting on me” and the expectations of donors and faculty would be appreciated.

    1. PantaloonsOnFire*

      Oh goodness, I feel you AnotherLibrarian, especially wrt historical collections.

      Expectation management is key here. Essential. As you get acclimated to the work and the needs of the org, put together a 1-year plan and a 5-year plan as soon as possible. Not only will this be a guide to help you figure out each subsequent step, it will also be something you can share with board and donors and faculty (either fully, or as requests come up). List each task or service that you can think of, assess feasibility, rank them by priority, assign timelines to them, and then use those metrics. Repeat those metrics: “At our current level of staffing and budget, the spoutmold collection will not be fully processed and ready for regular access until 2024.” or “I expect to have our teapot reference service up and running by March, but I’ll be sure to keep you informed if that changes.” Probably people are just excited the position is filled and progress can be made once again. Very few of them are likely to be upset that you are revising the collections policy before you handle the spoutmold collection. But if someone does get irked, you have your list/timeline and are able to justify your decision to handle tasks in the appropriate order.

      1. Just Elle*

        Agreed. Believe it or not, a lot of times people don’t necessarily want problems fixed, they’ll settle for knowing they’re heard and their ideas are appreciated. When I started a process improvement job, I told everyone “I can’t promise that I will fix everything, but I do promise to communicate with you about why.” It was well received.
        I started an action item log (excel file) where I recorded every single idea that was brought to me, rated it on impact and effort (try googling PICK charts), and then had a column for project status: working/backlog/cancelled. Plus a little project update column. I published the list in the main hallway, and also made sure to circle back with people whenever possible to touch base with them in person. I did a lot of phrasing as “right now, I just don’t have the data to support the expense of making this change. But I need your help! If it continues to be an issue, please continue to collect data and follow up with me so I can build a better business case.”
        Also make sure to publish success! Even if you don’t execute Sue’s idea, she might be happy to see that you’ve made 3 other improvements this month.

  110. WTFE*

    I took my first vacation in 8 months this week…just Tuesday-Friday. I was actually going to cut it a day short and return today because 1. My reason for taking time off is gone and 2. some of my coworkers are turning my work into dumpster fires. I’ve decided to let it burn (maniacal laugh/cry). I’ll deal with it next week…but overall I’m disappointed. We all do the same work. I do nothing particularly special or different with our clients. When one of us goes on vacation or gets sick, we can all easily cover for each other. The whole thing bums me out.
    F it, it’s 9 am and I’m eating an ice cream sandwich for this vacation breakfast.

    1. Michelle*

      I tried not to schedule to many vacation days because I would always come back to a ton of work because the other person who did my job and was supposed to be my cover would not do anything. But if she went on vacation and I didn’t do anything, she would go to her manager (who does not manage me) and cry about being all stressed now because there was so much to do.

      He called me in to one of those meetings in October of last year and asked me why I didn’t “help out” when she was on vacation. I was ready. I laid it all out for him- how she never did a thing when I went on vacation, how I came back to tons of work and was able to catch up and did not have to go crying to my manager. I told him I didn’t have a problem pitching in but if she was not going to put in the same amount of effort that I did, then I was not going to run myself ragged keeping up my work and hers while she was on vacation. Then I dropped the bomb on them- I had asked and been approved for 2 weeks of vacation time for the last 2 weeks of December. She turned as pale as a ghost. I said that if I came back and she had done nothing, I would go to MY manager and tell him everything that had been going on. Then I went home and had cake for supper!

      She covered most of the work. She ended up leaving earlier this year after applying and accepting a job offer, then trying to use it as leverage to get more money. The COO told her that she should take the other job. I danced out of the office that afternoon.

    2. !*

      I hear you loud and clear. I leave actual written instructions for my coworkers when I go on vacation and it still a cluster when I get back because no one gives a sh*t. I keep fantasizing about the day I leave here, and how I won’t be documenting anything (that I have not already). I put the blame squarely on management.

  111. I Rell Vatch*

    My manager was promoted. She was replaced by the assistant manager, so they needed to hire a replacement for. There was also a department manager position opening up, which I was planning to apply for. My manager knew that, but asked me to apply for the assistant manager position instead.

    I didn’t feel confident about my ability to do that job. I wanted to get more experience in a smaller role first. But, I let myself be talked into applying and as I prepared I started to get enthusiastic. I did a lot of research and thinking, and walked into the interview feeling good about my preparation, and afterward I feel good about how the interview went.

    I did not get the job. I was disappointed, of course, but not crushed. That happens, and I still had the option of applying for a department manager position with a greater chance of getting that. The whole thing would not have bothered me except my new manager said to me that she hadn’t really taken my application seriously.

    I am guessing my old manager told her that I’d been talked into applying. I’m so angry now. I took my application seriously. Being told that I never had a real chance, that I was the only one that took it seriously, has me wanting to scream and throw things.

    There’s no good solution to this, I know. I’m just venting, and fantasizing about telling off my old and new managers. I was feeling really flattered that my old manager thought so highly of me. Now I feel stupid.

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      I would be horrified to be told that my new manager “didn’t take my application seriously.” You have every right to be upset.

    2. juliebulie*

      Would it do any harm to tell her that your application was serious, and ask why she didn’t take it seriously? I doubt that the specific answer will be helpful, but the tone of it might give you an idea as to what kind of future you will have working for her.

        1. juliebulie*

          Good idea. It might take a while, though. This is the kind of thing that I’d tend to hold a grudge about forever and also be angry with myself if I didn’t address it promptly. (On the other hand, I have not yet learned how to cool myself off first. This has resulted in a lot of grudges as well as regrets.)

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Yes to both asking the question directly and calming down enough to ask in a polite, if chilly, way. (The chilly should be avoided but I know I would definitely still have an edge in my voice.) That’s just WTF.

  112. Blueberry Girl*

    My staff (this is my first time supervising) are lovely, but they have gone from 11 people in the Department to less then 3 in the past 10 years and most of them were here that whole time. Their morale is in the toilet. I don’t know how to even begin to work with them when all they see is more budget cuts and more loses down the road. One of them said, they thought the department might as well close as they don’t see any future here. Ouch.

    We’re at a mid-sized Teapot College and my job is partly to revive the services we provide and develop ways to integrate us further into the curriculum, but at the moment, I’m not even sure how to start when the people I need to rely on seem to think we are doomed to eternal failure.

    I do have the authority to let people go, but their work is actually top notch and they’ve all been here so long that I would rather not for at least a year while I get a sense of the place. Additionally, because of our budget reality, if I let someone go, there’s a high likelihood I won’t get the position back.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Termination in this situation is never the answer, unless they’re refusing to work due to their doom and gloom, or something like that. Just because they’re being negative, when they have every right to be, isn’t enough and will be how you end up being a department of one if you go that route. Since you’d have to let them all go, not just one, one axe falls and the others are going to assume the worst since that’s what happened to their colleague.

      The best thing to do is to be that Pollyanna, when they’re doom and gloom, continue to encourage them and that things will pull through.

      However a 70% decrease in staff is insane and they will never ever really feel safe or have higher morale unless things take a drastic swift turn and you are starting to hire more.

  113. Too identifiable for my usual name*

    A team lead is going on a short secondment and the team manager has asked who’s interested. I’m interested, but so is my friend F; who’s in the team with the vacancy. If I’m successful, I’ll be F’s line manager, but if successful F wouldn’t be mine.

    F started out the same grade as me but quickly moved higher, but for about the last year we’ve been the same grade. Our skill set is comparable in level but we have very different specialisms.

    I’m going to apply, but I won’t be gutted if I don’t get it, because it would be so very weird to line manage F.

    This all feels very weird and part of me doesn’t want to apply because I think F “deserves” it more (particularly seeing as it’s their own team), but – I mean, they’re not guaranteed to get it, and if someone else was successful I’d be gutted if I hadn’t even applied. But I think I’m almost trying to talk myself out of it. I had three interviews last year: the first was apparently super-amazing and I wowed the panel; the second was so bad that I felt I didn’t even deserve the job I had, let alone the next one! And the last one I did well enough but not great.

    I don’t have much confidence in myself at the minute because I’ve been working on something that’s not my main skill set and I’m scared.

    Ok. I need to just apply. I just needed to get all that off my chest.

    Wish me luck?

  114. A LW with a terrible boss*

    So, Alison has published a letter of mine about a terrible boss and while I tried to be generic, my boss would be able to identify me if she read it. Now at our weekly staff meetings, she has started saying, “It’s ask a manager time. Do you have any questions for me?” and I’m afraid she’s discovered this website. >_<

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      Many times I have recognized myself as an LW – even though I didn’t write it. Even if you think your boss would recognize you, the world is an enormous place and let’s hope she is wise enough to understand that almost anyone could have written almost any letter. Good luck!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        And if your manager has discovered the site and read any of the comments ever, they’ll have noticed a LOT of commenters saying “are you me?” and similar because so many people have common work issues. Hopefully this gives you a little plausible deniability.

    3. Shiny alolan raichu*

      Oh man. I’m so sorry to hear that. I hope she hasn’t found it :(
      If she’s that bad, are you job hunting?

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m sorry this scared you! But honestly, “ask a manager” is really basic and only set off bells because you know of this site. Tons of people who don’t, would still use that kind of phrasing very easily, very innocently.

  115. halfwolf*

    does anyone have tips on how to remind yourself of ad-hoc items that aren’t tied to a particular timeframe? i have tons and tons of calendar reminders, etc., but frequently i come across a situation where i need a reminder like “remember to do X when Y comes in” but there’s no way of telling when Y comes in – could be tomorrow, next week, a month from now (or never!).

    1. Jamie*

      It’s super basic, but I keep an excel chart called “action items” and it’s just basically my to do list where I note anything I need to follow up on, or the little things that aren’t time sensitive so when I have a little time to knock stuff out it’s an easy reference.

      Also I like marking things complete, so I’m a big list fan. I know it’s simple, but it works.

      1. halfwolf*

        thanks for this! i feel like i need to incorporate more lists – i’ve gotten DEEP into using my calendar (and badly need outlook to give me more categories…) but lists are probably the right way to go for this stuff.

    2. Alex*

      Seconding the “to do” list. I keep a document (I happen to use Evernote for this but it isn’t necessary) with all the things I ever need to do. Sometimes things stay on there for months, and sometimes only a few hours, but it is how I don’t forget about stuff.

    3. Zephy*

      How are you notified when Y comes in? If you’re notified via email and that message comes in a standard format, you can set up an Outlook rule to do something when you receive a message from a specific address or containing a specific word or phrase in the subject or body. I have a similar “do X when Y comes in” task, where Y comes in at irregular intervals. I direct the emails about Y to a folder, so I can easily find them if I need them and so I can easily see that I have some Ys to do X with.

      You can also set a recurring reminder in just about any existing calendar app these days. When Y comes in, how urgently do you need to do X? Is it something you need to be ready to turn around whenever Y comes in, or could you set aside a chunk of time every week or however often to look and see if Y has come in, and if so, do X?

      1. Zephy*

        Edit to add: for my “when Y do X” rule I also have Outlook interrupt what I’m doing with a notification popup, so I see it right when Y comes in. Mine is moderately time-sensitive but it’s easier to do X as Y comes in rather than doing it in weekly batches or whatever.

        Unless your concern was how to remember the procedure for X because Y comes in so rarely? I don’t have anything for that, other than keeping a checklist/procedure SOP handy.

        1. halfwolf*

          thanks! i use a ton of inbox rules already, and this might be something to consider, but usually what i need reminders for are one-off things that deviate from my SOP, and it’s those specific deviations that i need to keep track of. i haven’t missed anything important, but just thinking about better ways to do things. i think lists are probably the way to go; i’ll also occasionally leave post-its on my computer monitors, but those tend to blend in and become part of the background too quickly!

  116. Boozhoo*

    Is there an AAM post related to ideas for good team-building activities (aka “forced fun”)? I thought I remembered an Ask the Readers post looking for suggestions on inclusive team-building ideas, but can’t find it. My office is currently obsessed with team building and I want to bring some less-painful ideas to the table!

    1. Goose Lavel*

      I most enjoyed a team building event that started with breakfast at a nice restaurant, followed by go-karting, pinball, video games and Pee Wee golf.

      We then went out for a great lunch followed by laser tag.

      Best team building experience I’ve ever had because it was so much fun!

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        go-karting, pinball, video games, mini golf and laser tag sounds like a day of sheer hell to me, so … mileage may vary.

        1. WellRed*

          +1. And a full day of it. Sounds planned by a college fraternity president. Glad you had fun, Goose!

  117. Quest*

    This is a question for folks who’ve done a PhD, especially in the life sciences. I just started my program and over the next few months I will need to select a thesis advisor who will be my boss and mentor for the next 5-6 years. I’ve been given a ton of advice along the lines of “the most important choice you’ll make in grad school is your advisor, so choose carefully.”

    So for those of you who’ve been in this position, I’m wondering: what does a good/great relationship with your PhD advisor look like? What signs do I look for in the initial meetings that can guide me?

    1. PopJunkie42*

      I think talking to that person’s other students can give you a great view. How are they as a supervisor, how hands-on do they want to be, do they communicate, are they available for check-ins, etc. Also are they going to help you put together a dissertation committee and find other appropriate faculty for you to work with.

      One thing we always recommend to students when they’re choosing PhD programs is to just straight up ask about graduation rates. I would ask this person if they had numbers or info on how quickly their past students graduated, where they ended up, if there were many delays along the way…of course find a respectful way to ask this, but they should be willing to share this info!

    2. Gidget*

      As someone who ended up with a poor adviser (okay person, terrible adviser– to the point I didn’t finish my PhD)
      My advice is to talk with people in the lab. Look at how many people your potential adviser has graduated. Newer advisers are going to be way less experienced and have a lot fewer outcomes to look at so make sure you really ask questions.
      It’s a good idea to understand their management style and what they find valuable — if you are interested in teaching and they complain all the time about their intro classes, they will probably not be a good fit or encouraging when it comes to teaching opportunities during your program.
      Talk to them about expectations — how often do they generally meet with their grad students; does the lab work on collaborative projects; how do they feel about mentoring undergraduates; what are the expectations for leaving the lab (i.e. must have X number of papers, must have a postdoc lined up.); how much assistance/input will they provide in helping you develop your thesis (do you have to come up with it from scratch or is there a study system and broad question area they prefer you work with)
      Discuss funding— how will they expect you to fund your research, can you be on their grants? or will you have to apply for and obtain your own (not uncommon);
      Find out how they feel about non-Academic positions. This can be very important as many people (most of the people in my cohort) went in to their PhD wanting to do research/be a professor and quickly realized industry/non-profit/government was much more appealing. It is much easier to pursue these fields if your adviser is open to them.
      I would recommend attending some lab meetings of advisers you might be interested in. This can tell you a lot about their working style and their expectations. If they don’t have lab meetings this can definitely be a red flag as it means they are probably pretty hands-off and are willing to let you struggle.

      But also congrats on starting and good luck!

    3. Memyselfandi*

      For me this process started with choosing where to go to school. I was told to look for someone who had expertise in the area of my interest and who had a track record of successfully producing PhDs.

    4. YetAnotherUsername*

      Make sure they are planning on meeting you about once a week for an hour. Make sure they have supervised a couple of other phds. If you can talk to other PhD candidates of theirs. Make sure they have a good solid understanding of the specific field of your research. By the end of your PhD you should know more about your specific topic than they do, but at the start they should know more than you about that Area of study.

      Remember they are interviewing you and you are interviewing them. So you need to impress them and you need to evaluate whether they will work well with you.

      Assess your own style and be honest about yourself about what you need in a manager. The biggest challenge with a PhD is being self driven. You really need to drive yourself but think about what kind of support would help you and don’t be afraid to ask them about how often they would meet you etc

  118. Robin Sparkles*

    In the past week, my mind has been strongly in “I deserve better than this” camp and, luckily, better things seem to be coming! After learning secondhand that my boss has totally redirected the project they had asked me to lead – without involving me at all – I just got an interview for a program director job – one that would ALLOW me to lead the project I was supposed to be in charge of, and compensate me accordingly. I’ve been channeling my frustration into a job search, and while I’ve had a couple first rounds not pan out, I am feeling good about the responses and about this next one in particular. And looking forward to explaining to my boss why I’m leaving when that time comes!

  119. A Cataloger*

    I work in a library and am part of group that is evaluating our software and part of that also involves reviewing workflows. We have some workflows that have workarounds and carryovers from previous software or from before new features became available in our software. Does anyone have any suggestions for books or articles that discuss different methods of analyzing workflows?

  120. WellRed*

    After my boss learned about a bit of ball dropping this week she was not best pleased with me. She has every right to be annoyed, but I am frustrated and burned out (this waxes and wanes for me) and demoralized that I haven’t had a raise in several years. We still have the same benchmarks (for lack of a better term) that we had 20 years ago when we had more staff more resources, more pages (magazine) and received regular generous raises etc. I’ll have to plan out what to talk about when we meet about this next week. I posted this elsewhere as nesting fail. sorry!

  121. Fabulous*

    One of my professional goals this year is to work on my emotional intelligence and professional presence. Any tips?

    Looking for book suggestions, webinars, TedTalks/Youtubes, etc. Thanks!!

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Bradbury is a pretty good read and would probably do a nice job of highlighting what you’re looking for.

    2. YetAnotherUsername*

      “Emotional Intelligence” is the book that’s started it all. It’s awesome.

      It’s very dense and pretty scientific though so if you’re not into reading scientific type books maybe get one of the many other books on the topic.

  122. pebbles*

    Hi everyone! I currently live in a town where the industry that I’d like to work in is small/non-existent. It took me a while to find a job in this field and I am the only person in my department. I’d really love to connect with more senior people in my field, but there are no meetups or professional chapters offered where I live. Any suggestions?

    1. irene adler*

      Do the professional organizations have webinar-type events (meetings, trainings, and the like) that you can attend?
      What about on-line forums for member interactions? Anything like that available for you to contribute to?
      Is there a LI group pertaining to the professional organization or the industry that you can participate in?

    2. i forget the name i usually use*

      A bit out of left field, but maybe therapy. Nothing like trying to decode and understand your own inner emotional workings to help you understand what others are going through. If you’re not in touch with your own emotional experience, relating to and empathizing with others is a lot more difficult. Recognizing your own patterns may help you recognize them in others.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Does your industry do any kind of virtual networking? Mailing lists, forums, Slack groups, that sort of thing? I’ve met some cool people that way. (But I’m also in tech, and there’s a pervasive assumption we’re likely to meet each other virtually before we meet in person.)

  123. PopJunkie42*

    Does anyone have any advice in working with their boss to get more low-level administrative tasks off their plate? I’m in a decently mid-level coordinator position (with senior in my title) and make good money for my pay band. I’m new-ish in this job and they know that the job duties are too much for one person but we’re in a sort of negotiation stage in terms of what’s needed. My predecessor, who is still here part time, basically handled everything for everybody no matter how big or small. So this job has been handed to me with a TON of time-consuming administrative work that could easily be done by a front-desk type person…forms, room bookings, travel arrangements, setting up catered lunches, etc.

    I sort of mentioned this to my boss when he mentioned we were looking to hire a .5 person to support our office and he gave me kind of a confused look. I don’t want it to seem like I’m above administrative work – everyone has to do it in some form or another and I started my career as a secretary. It’s a bit harder because my predecessor is still here and just handled everything, all the time, taking on more and more duties until this ballooned out of control. I don’t want to seem ungrateful or lazy but honestly, I have some really higher-level projects on my plate and things I need to take care of, but the paperwork and such takes up almost half of my time.

    Any good language or arguments to use when I eventually go into our meeting?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Can you map the time these tasks take you? So it’s not just like “I’m above doing these forms, put them on a lower person!” but “These forms take me an average of 30 minutes to complete, which means I have less time to do What You Want Me To Do.” You can show him the time put on each task. Since individually it seems pretty low to him but when you say “No I’m booking 17 rooms at a time these days, that takes me an average of 2 hours to get all these things done correctly and make sure we’re getting the best rates…”

      The list of tasks will usually always seem minor when someone has been so far removed for so long. The other person handled them because maybe they were happy to work extra hours or had some kind of awesome streamline technique going on. I know it takes me a lot less time to do things than others, so it could just be that you’re carrying a load now that Zeus has no problem doing but any other given non-God like person cannot deal with on such a regular basis!

    2. TCO*

      I think you made a good argument right here–that you’re spending half of your time on paperwork and administrative tasks that could be handled by someone else, and as a result you don’t have time for strategic priorities X, Y, and Z. Surely your boss has some goals they’d like you to be accomplishing, goals they probably think you’re uniquely qualified for. Frame your conversation around what additional resources are needed to ensure you have time for those goals.

    3. CM*

      First, don’t read too much into the “confused look” — you’re interpreting it that he may think you’re above admin work, and lazy, but it could have been anything.

      Second, show up with a list of tasks to get off your plate, and a list of projects you’d like to focus on. Hand him the tasks to get off your plate and say, “I’m glad we’re looking for a support person, because having someone else handle these tasks would enable me to spend my time on higher-value projects like X, Y, and Z” (read off your list). “Right now I’m spending about half my time on X, Y, and Z and half my time on admin tasks. If I could spend most of my time on the higher-value projects, [they would get done quicker / they would get done better / a problem that happened would have been avoided / CEO will be happy / whatever other reasons — be as concrete as you can].”

    4. YetAnotherUsername*

      It’s not about thinking your above it, it’s about efficient use of the companies resources. I recently suggested to my boss that we get a part time admin for the department to deal with all the admin type tasks engineers are doing – uploading safety documents onto the system, setting up file folders on the drive, making sure there are enough safety forms printed out, etc. It’s not that engineers are “above” this work, it’s that it’s more efficient to pay an admin €15 an hour to do it than to pay an engineer €30 an hour to do it. It means engineers can do more actual engineering work.

  124. calbal10791*

    I work at a large company with a pretty grinding culture (lots of inefficiencies/culture of fear), and I’ve been pretty burned out recently. I’m a high performer, but I had a talk with my boss this morning (who has been great/trying to change the culture but failing lately), and he basically told me I’ve been internalizing the bad parts of the culture too much and he’s noticed it’s starting to affect my performance (not being able to take on enough work, anxiety attacks, pushing back deliverables because I can’t get what I need). His solution is encouraging me to look elsewhere (because “it’s obvious you’re not happy in this environment”) and I’m considering it. In the meantime, though, does anybody have suggestions on how to better compartmentalize work drama?

    1. CM*

      Therapy helped me! End result, I cared less about my job and let it define me less. But if his response is “it’s obvious you’re not happy” versus “let’s see what we can do to help,” you should start job searching.

      1. calbal10791*

        Ah, I’m going to therapy now and it has been a godsend. He has helped a little by cutting down my workload (which was too high) and listening/providing advice on specific issues I’ve had, but I’m getting the sense he has waved the white flag on trying to protect our team from management.

  125. Marika*

    I think I need a little perspective on this one:

    I’m an expat living in the US. I just got work permissions in the spring (six years after we came). I was a teacher at home (in Canada).

    In the spring, one of the moms at my kid’s private school mentioned that they were hiring for a spot in the high school (she’s the head of the department) in my area, and I should apply. I did, and the ‘hiring person (HP)’ got back to me 12 days later to say ‘Loved your application but we have someone’. Ok, no fuss.

    I knew they were looking for subs, so I asked about applying for that. the HP was all about that, and wanted me to teach a ‘demo’ lesson. I agreed, and then found out (three days before) that they wanted me to teach a CLASS, on a particular book, on a particular subject (lots of notice there, huh?). I crammed the book, prepped a lesson, had to readjust on the fly (kids didn’t seem to have READ the book), and got a standing ovation from the class… seems good, right? I haven’t had a lot of those from Grade 10 students.

    10 days after that, the HP calls me back, says “great lesson, look, there might be a half time slot, would you come in for an informal chat – nothing official yet”. I agree, go in for the chat. After the chat, she says “the marking session is over there” – turns out, there’s two half day sessions on marking she thinks I’m attending – but she never told me. I rearrange my afternoon (thanks hubby, who had our kiddo and works from home so I can do it!) and go to both. Everyone there thinks I’ve been hired as a sub – only no-one’s made me an offer! That’s also when I find out that the ‘doesn’t officially exist’ position DOES exist, and she’s got an internal candidate for it.

    At the end of the second session, she says she’ll let me know in a couple weeks (This is June 9). Radio silence. All summer. Not a word. I dropped her two emails in July, just to follow up. Nothing.

    Last Monday, I ran into another person who works there who asked why I hadn’t been at the meeting. Huh? I leave HP a voicemail, saying “I’m not really sure what’s going on here, could we clarify?” She gets back to me on Wednesday, saying “I dropped the ball, we really want you, I’m having the background package sent to you, let’s make this work”. I still don’t know the hours, the commitment, the PAY, nothing. I email back, saying “We need to have an in-person chat about all this stuff, when’s good for you?”. She says “End of next week, let me know three slots that are good for you, I’ll clear my calendar” and I do.

    Welp, the third slot just passed. I’ve heard exactly NOTHING since that email.

    So here’s my question to the group mind: Am I nuts for even considering trying to get this job? It would be a foot into American teaching, and something on my resume after six years off… but the complete lack of professional respect is kind of killing me here.

    1. Eda*

      I would say they’re nuts, not you. Jeez louise. Are there any other schools nearby, or homeschool groups that need a part time teacher?

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      Don’t do it! Unless you know people who work at the school who can provide unambiguous references about how pleasant and well run their jobs are. Too many red flags.

    3. Professional Pup*

      Having worked at a school that did stuff like this with their hiring process….RUN, do not walk, away.

    4. E*

      That’s pretty crazy. I know it’s a private school but having someone applying for a sub position teach a whole lesson seems like overkill.

    5. T. Boone Pickens*

      I would sprint the other direction. This is the HP at their absolute best right now (trying to woo you). Can you imagine what’s going to happen once you start working there?

    6. CatCat*

      If this is how they treat you when they should be on their best behavior, imagine how it would be if you actually ended up working there. Yikes.

      1. juliebulie*

        That’s just what I was thinking. They seem really disorganized. You, on the other hand, have every reason to believe that you could qualify for a job in a better organized place.

  126. Pan Troglodytes*

    Hi everyone,

    I have a question about cliques at work. I’ve seen a few posts here on this topic, and the consensus seems to be ‘friendship groups form, feeling left-out is childish, get over it’.

    However, I have an issue at my workplace that feels honestly horrible, and while I completely accept it’s not something I can change, I feel strange that few people sympathize with how shitty it is… because it sincerely is shitty. I think it triggers some primordial in group/out group response of ‘oh fuck, they might kill me’, and causes deep problems with happiness and morale.

    I have been at my job 2.5 years, and about 1.5 years ago a new colleague joined. He proceeded to openly, blatantly, steal my ideas and pitch them to senior colleagues and clients, and to exclude me from work streams. I’d go red and feel like the world had turned upside down as I saw credit given for ideas I had literally just said, or had mentioned in meetings to the colleague. I dealt with this in a not great way.. after this had been going on for a while, and I had asked him to inform me of work I am overseeing to no success, the the colleague was handed a piece of work that was formally in my work plan without my knowledge. At this point, I raised his behavior with management as I was afraid he’d exclude me in the work, and I was concerned that I hadn’t been notified of the change. In hindsight, and thanks to this blog, I now realize this was a bad move and I should have tried harder.

    Management spoke to him about the importance recognizing colleagues in the ideas you pitch and he improved, accept one really bad instance.

    However, this colleague also leads a bro-y clique that includes everyone in our team of our age group/life stage (late 20s- mid 30s) at the office except me. Every day the colleague is in, they emerge to get lunch together, meeting at a time arranged via private message. They come into my office to get people in my room who are part of the clique (everyone but me) and never extend the invite. There is also a Whatsapp message group that includes a wider catchment of everyone in the organization of the age group/life stage, except me, and there are after work events I’m not invited to, though this bothers me less since it’s out of work and less obvious.

    In the past, before this clique emerged, the office was very warm and friendly; people obviously had closer relationships with some people than others, but at work you’d be open and warm to everyone, and extend the invite rather than leave a single person out. I miss this, and loved it about the workplace.

    I get on well with everyone in the group; we’ve had chats about life, we laugh, etc. With the idea-stealing colleague, we’re respectful and occasionally share a joke, because I’m not going to be hostile at work. My issue is not that I want to be in the clique- I really don’t! And it’s not that people shouldn’t be friends- of course they should. I just want to work in an office where I feel liked, and I like the people around me, and they don’t self-select a group that is exclusive with a leader who designates membership (which is how it looks from the outside).

    Being consistently the only one left out of things… some my brain involuntarily goes ‘AAAH, THEY HATE YOU- GET OOUUUTTT!!!’

    I am job searching, because this is awful, but there’s nothing I can do about it. However, I do wonder if people agree that this is horrible, and it’s not childish to feel shit about it, and think things could be done better..?

    Though nobody knows, because it’s not visible, I am the only blue-collar origin person of this group, and I do feel it’s a factor- it feels sometimes that there is just something I don’t get about white collar communication. They have a natural confidence that I have never managed to embody, and my humor is self-deprecating in a way I rarely see with white collar people.

    Ooff… ramble over. This is more therapy than a question, really…

    2. Colette*

      This sounds awful, and I agree that you should get out. not everyone has to be friends at work, but deliberately excluding the same person all the time is not OK, nor is stealing ideas.

    3. The Other Liz*

      Oof, I’m so sorry. I have had to deal with a work clique before. I know the advice here trends towards “get out now” but I found it helpful to just proactively seek out different work friends who weren’t part of the clique, or find REAL friends who worked nearby to meet me for lunch. I hope you can find some other friends – colleagues who aren’t in the bro group, who you can focus your social energies on? Maybe an office softball team, or maybe there’s another left out person you can ask to get lunch once in awhile.

      1. Alianora*

        Good advice. I also think it might be worth it to see if any of the clique members are friendly. It sounds like there are a lot of them, maybe you can go to lunch with one or two of them. Might help alleviate the feeling of exclusion.

    4. juliebulie*

      I don’t think I’ve seen much approval of cliquey work behavior here on AAM, but maybe you’ve seen something I haven’t. (Yes, friendship groups happen, but those are different. Nice people don’t act like little kids forming a secret club.)

      I agree that it is horrible, and it’s not childish to feel shitty about being treated shittily. I am disappointed that your colleagues don’t seem to be concerned by your exclusion from lunches and such, though it’s possible that they DID question it and he assured them that he had invited you and you declined.

      On the other hand, it sounds as though management supported you regarding the issues that affected your job. That’s good. Hopefully Mr. Popularity will get a job somewhere else and go away, but if not, perhaps you should look forward to the day when a bigger fish arrives.

    5. Michelle*

      That is a shitty way to treat people. It hurts to be the only one never invited. I would be upset as well.

      If moving to another job would be better for you, then apply and see what’s out there. If you get a offer it doesn’t mean you have to take it.

      It sucks that you had a decent place to work and felt accepted and one person has come in and destroyed the nice, friendly atmosphere you had.

    6. Close Bracket*

      Not being friends with everybody can absolutely cross over into exclusion of certain people, and cliques do impact the work you get. It can become hugely problematic when an established group only gives work to the same people. If your group’s clique includes everybody but you, it has moved from friendship to exclusion.

      I second the recommendation to seek out other work friends and lunch buddies, including pre-emptively asking members of the clique who you get along with to go to lunch bf the official clique discussion happens for the day. Who knows, they might invite you to the clique lunch. :)

      1. The New Wanderer*

        “Who knows, they might invite you to the clique lunch. :)”

        Conversely, they could be looking for an alternative too and just not being proactive about it. Both are potentially positive outcomes!

        FWIW I watched this happen in grad school. Very clique-y sub-group that ate lunch together and visibly excluded a number of people. I was invited once that I accepted, then sat and ate while they talked about their past fun activities and future planned activities (to which I was not invited). Nope. They were all interesting and fun people individually, but kind of jerks as a clique. I bonded with several other people on the outskirts, it was much better for me.

        The stealing credit and work thing is a huge deal, I hope that it has stopped (sounds like it has, for the most part).

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        and cliques do impact the work you get.

        They sure do. My last manager had a clique at work and only assigned the most interesting assignments to them while giving me the stuff no one in our office cared about (when she bothered to give me work at all).

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Hit submit too soon. Basically, the joke was on her – I ended up landing a job that pays almost what she makes a year with better benefits and way more interesting work.

          I hope you, too, end up finding something way better. These people sound like asses.

  127. bluefox*

    One of my biggest struggles at work is communicating with people without tech backgrounds. I find it difficult to translate what people want and vice versa it’s difficult for me to explain why what they want isn’t exactly possible because of X,Y,Z but a modified version is. Are there any ways to get better at this?

    1. rubyrose*

      Put yourself in their mind space helps, along with actively picking up on their cues when you are speaking with them. Actively find non-technical words that you use in place of technical ones.

    2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I have been in this position. It takes time to learn it and time to develop examples/similes. Bravo to you for willing to work on it. I have worked with tech people who didn’t want to or just couldn’t speak at the level of the customer.

      Try and find things that everyday people can relate to and use those as examples.

      There will be times though where you may have to use the, “I am very sorry that I can’t explain why it can’t be done. It would take me too long and it is too complicated. I ask that you just please trust me that it can’t be done that way. However, will (present new solution) work for you?”

      Another one I have used is, “To be honest, while I do understand why it can’t be done, I don’t fully understand it enough to explain it to anyone. I ask that you just please trust me that it can’t be done that way. However, will (present new solution) work for you?”

      Over time though, you will come up with examples, similes, etc. that will help you explain why things can’t be done.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Try and find things that everyday people can relate to and use those as examples.

        This is what I always tell our tech guys at my company. Dear lord, do they struggle with talking in layperson’s terms about anything really. But what I quoted is what I tell them and some of them are getting better at this.

    3. CM*

      What people want: Can you focus on outcomes, and not implementation?

      For example, if somebody says “I need you to do X,” rather than focusing on why X is or is not possible, ask them instead, “OK, why do you need that? What are you looking for?” And then once you feel you understand, try to rephrase, “So it sounds like you need to produce a report once a week, and you’re asking me to help find a solution to help you automate that so it takes less time and you don’t have to remember to do it. Is that right?” Keep iterating until you’ve got it.

      If you use Agile, basically you want to communicate with non-tech people at the level of a user story.

      Then once you understand their needs, you can think about how to implement it. At this point you can say something like, “I’m not sure I have a solution that meets all your needs, but it will do X and Y” and if they argue, you could say, “For technical reasons that won’t work; the possibilities are either #1 or #2,” etc. But if you focus more on what they need, versus what they’re asking you to do, I think that will help.

      1. On Hold*

        Very much this – non-technical people often have a (very wrong) idea about how things work, and they’ll filter requests or bug reports through that idea. If you can get past “what is she even saying??? Are we speaking the same language?” and get to “no but really, what OUTCOME does she want?” you will find communication a whole lot easier. Ignore the “how” of what they’re asking – focus on the result.

    4. juliebulie*

      I have a pseudo-technical background, but if I ask you for something, I’ll be satisfied if you said “it’s not possible now but it can be done with a modification.”

      I might ask for more detail after that, but if you give me the detail before (or instead of) the “it’s not possible now but can be done with a modification,” I’ll be totally lost. The detail might be more meaningful to me once I get the “not now, needs a mod” message, but until I get that, I’m going to wonder why you are trying to hypnotize me with all that jibber-jabber.

    5. YetAnotherUsername*

      I always try to explain it in a way that my mother could understand. My mother is really smart but not techy in the slightest.

      Do you know an adult in your personal life who is intelligent but not technical? If so ask them if you can try to explain things to them. Ask them to tell you when you are being confusing. Once you can explain it to them you should be able to explain it to work colleagues.

      The main challenge with this is not getting frustrated when trying to explain it! Non-technical people’s brains work REALLY differently so they ask questions that make no sense to us.

      If you can learn the skill of explaining technical topics to non technical people it will be a real benefit to you in your career. This skill is a big part of how I got my current role. It’s a valuable skill to have and most technical people cannot do it. Do your best to learn it.

      1. Clisby*

        When I decided, after almost 10 years of working as a journalist, to go back to school to get a computer science degree, I had no idea how useful my journalism training would be in Career #2. There was no getting frustrated at explaining technical stuff to non-technical people, because that is the definition of what a newspaper reporter does.

  128. Eda*

    I’m finally quitting my second part time job which I hate – however, I’m not leaving it for another job. I’m working on side projects that I’m not making money on (yet!) and wanted to be more dedicated to them…but what do I tell my boss? Should I say something vague about doing freelance work? I’m not a good liar, but I can’t exactly say “This organization is dysfunctional, you’re a terrible boss, and I’d rather have have no job at all then this one. Peace out.”

    2. Colette*

      “I find my other job is taking up the time I have for paid work”, “I’m pursuing other opportunities”, “It no longer works with my schedule”.

      Choose something vague and move on.

  129. rubyrose*

    Job hunt vents for the week. Recruiters:
    1. If you put the word REMOTE in the job title and mark the job as telecommute, no travel required, do not
    make your first question on the phone “you are willing to move several states over, correct?” If the requirement changed since you posted the job, tell the candidate before you have them on the phone. Bait and switch is not appreciated.
    2. In setting up a time for a phone interview, if the candidate tells you they are available during a 6 hour time frame that does not mean that the person is going to sit there for 6 hours waiting for your call! Especially if when they gave you the 6 hour time frame they specifically requested you give them a specific time. I’ve had 2 of these occur this week.

    1. RI Rose*

      #2 – It baffles me that this is a thing. I’m a freelancer who does a lot of short term projects, so I am meeting and interviewing with new people all the time (remotely only, phone calls only, and interviews as a freelancer to take on a new project definitely have a different vibe than interviewing for a permanent position: less formal and very highly a two way street). In one of my first projects I ran into this… sitting around at my computer all morning waiting for a call, such a waste of not just time, but mental focus and energy. My script now for setting up a call, having been asked for my availability: “I am currently free on x days anytime from x:00 to x:00, but it would be best to schedule a specific time for the call.”

  130. Seeking Second Childhood*

    A question for the Australians — I’m working with a new overseas engineer and looking for common grammar for shared documents. Which of these do you prefer in formal written English?
    “This is no different to …” vs. “This is no different from…”
    From reading my usual internet suspects, it seems like “from” is an overlap between Australian/UK and American usage. And that “This is no different than…” doesn’t work outside the US.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      To be honest, in situations like this–especially in ones where I’m unsure myself and Google is no help– I just avoid using the problematic expression. I also like to re-word things, so I would just flip it around (“This is the same as…”).

    3. Ismis*

      I have lived in Australia for years and would say “This is no different to…” I also asked the closest Australian, who agrees.

  131. Bovine PM*

    As I was wrapping up a misguided year-long regional office assignment at the end of last year, my boss proposed a new position for me when I returned. In the interim, he ended up assigning me to run a cow project, and then he moved back the handoff date for the project and I have now run it to 70% complete and may stay with it till the end. (It was a big, unique project with some good-for-my-career perks, so ok.)

    We had a chat earlier this week about next steps. We are close to winning a new llama project, and he wants me to run that. The other job has kind of disappeared because of some markets accelerating and internal strategy shift. More high profile cow projects are being bid, but I think another division is going to steal them away from my group. So, I may be stuck with the llama project. It’s probably a decent project, but I ran one successfully in 2017 and did a bunch of undesirable stuff to move ahead. Now I am back to that. Pfttt.

    1. CAA*

      What if you moved to the division that’s stealing away the high profile cow work? If that’s your long term career strategy and your current group doesn’t do that type of work any more, then maybe it’s worth exploring a move rather than taking a big step backwards.

      1. Bovine PM*

        I do think that is possible, but I like my current division, too, and have more trust in our leadership. Definitely something to think about and try to put myself in the 10-yr mindset.

  132. dresspantsfordays*

    I’m starting a new entry-level position at a big finance company and would appreciate any advice from fellow women on how to dress myself?

    I come from more casual offices where my usual wardrobe was a cardigan, blouse, dark dress pants, and loafers. I’m very much interested in comfort and enjoy wearing more gender-neutral items. When I was interviewing, I saw that the most of the women were older than me (in their 40s-50s while I’m in my mid 20s) and either wore power suits or more chic-casual like high heels and jumpsuit rompers. Not sure how I can dress myself to be in-between these two types that I’ve seen but also still be able to maintain a level of comfort so no heels, etc. I’ve never worked in finance so not sure what the norm is?

    1. Lovecraft Beauty*

      Blazers! Up the structure of your cardigans — MM. La Fleur is pricey but their “jardigans” are a good example of what I mean — and you instantly look more formal. You can also wear oxford shoes rather than loafers, which may split the difference between “gender-neutral and comfy” and “polished and appropriate”.

      1. dresspantsfordays*

        Thank you for the “jardigans” term, this was literally the type of outerwear that I was looking for! But that price tag really hurts :(

        I was definitely considering oxfords and am glad that they are indeed appropriate.

      3. Newly Buz*

        Talbot’s also has those sweater blazers. They can be pricey, but there’s also always a sale of some kind going on. I just picked one up recently. It has pockets. :)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There are tons of dress shoes without heels. I can’t wear them with my knees and ankles. You can get shoes that are essentially heel like but without the actual heel to them.

      1. dresspantsfordays*

        Do you recommend a specific brand/style for these kind of shoes? I’m not sure what to look up online except maybe derby shoes and oxfords?

    3. EA in CA*

      Maybe try looking up pumps. I know you said no heels, but maybe something that is super low would work for you. I have a pair of these: https://www.zappos.com/p/rockport-total-motion-kalila-pump-black-calf/product/8657389/color/60 which I found was a pretty good transition from the loafers and slip on flats I use to wear. The heel is about an inch, so for my 90% sitting job, I was still comfortable because it a) wasn’t pointed toe and b) the heel was super low. I also had a pair that looked very similar to this, except it has a 1/2 inch block heel. Another option to look at as it gives the appearance of a pump, but the comfort and stability of a non heel shoe.
      I’m in a company that is on the more formal side of business casual and found these to go with everything and still be comfortable.
      Blazers are a great option to dress up your existing wardrobe. Old Navy has some that are made of a jersey/sweatshirt type material, but looks structured. You can also dress things up a bit with a touch of jewelry, if you’d like. A simple necklace paired with what you typically wear can just add a little bit of flair to your outfit.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I can’t really wear heels, but clogs and wedges give a little elevation (especially with slacks) and are very comfortable for me. Something like these:
      https://www.zappos.com/p/dansko-beatrice-black-burnished-nubuck/product/9230228/color/260261
      https://www.zappos.com/p/lartiste-by-spring-step-aneria-black/product/8775590/color/3

      Can you wear a pump with a very low heel, less than 1 inch? Like these?
      https://www.zappos.com/p/skypro-mariam-al-mansouri-black/product/9195203/color/3

    5. Ann Perkins*

      Tuck the blouse in, put a blazer on, and then wedges or point-toed flats. That will be a good go-to until you’re more familiar with the vibe of the office. Don’t invest too much money in a new wardrobe until you’ve been there a couple weeks at least.

  133. Third or Nothing!*

    The saga of the sad office lunches continues…(link to previous comment in my name)

    My 30th birthday was earlier this week, so the monthly office lunch will celebrate me this time. I just overheard the woman who orders the lunch say that we’re doing Olive Garden next week. Something tells me I won’t be able to eat my own birthday lunch (they usually get Alfredo and the baked ziti, which is topped with cheese).

    *sigh* New VP is about to get yet another message complaining about free food from me. I’m starting to feel like a choosing beggar.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s not begging or being choosy to let your dietary requirements be known! It’s rude and pretty uncouth IMO to continue to make you remind them. It’s not that hard to remember you have someone who is diary-free, it’s literally the easiest and one of the oldest dietary restrictions along with peanut butter, jfc!

      I’m glad you are speaking up, despite them being unable to remember or make a frigging note about it.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Email her. CC the VP. “Since we’re celebrating my birthday this month, it would be nice if the birthday lunch was something I could eat. As we’ve discussed, I can’t have dairy, for medical reasons. If you would order the X for me, that would be great.”

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            And when she responds with beggars and choosers and some such nonsense:

            “So, let me make sure I understand. You’re saying that you choose not to order a lunch that *I* can eat, to celebrate my birthday, because you feel it’s unnecessary.” Preferably also by email, and also CC’d to the VP.

          2. WellRed*

            +1. Do you have any work friends who can support you on this? Also, I think it’s weird that she just decides on one thing for the group.

            1. Third or Nothing!*

              So weird, right? She also decided last week that people are eating entirely too many snacks and she’s going to stop stocking the break room. Management was not consulted and we are definitely not strapped for cash.

    4. rageismycaffeine*

      You’re not a choosing beggar! Stand up for yourself. I’ve had to do the same a number of times with vegetarian options being nonexistent at work functions. Anyone ordering food for a group of people should care more about everyone being fed than anything else.

    5. House Tyrell*

      I totally relate to free food struggles. Myself and one other woman in our office are vegetarian and for the staff lunch our admin ordered BBQ… she and I ate salad and bread. We have lunches at our office at least once a month usually, which is nice, but they never order vegetarian options so we don’t get to benefit. It’s so frustrating and we both feel like we’re being ungrateful since it’s free lunch but it’s not really for us since we can’t really eat most of it.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m clawing at my face right now reading this. It’s so outragous to me to not respect dietary requirements.

        The point of free food is to bring up morale, show appreciation and you know, be good to your frigging workers. So why would you not try to take them all into consideration. Yeah, there are times they just have to opt out because it’s “I cannot eat anything from outside kitchens or prep”, then it’s a no-go situation. Fine enough.

        But ordering you something more than frigging sides is over the top. In this day and age when you can just order from separate locations if necessary.

        We have BBQ’s all the time but I get veggie burgers for the vegetarians. That along with just the side salads and corn bread and fruits/veggies it’s all a meal in the end.

        Recently on a personal level, we had a BBQ for a family celebration with friends invited. I have one dairy-free friend and a niece who is vegetarian. So I texted my niece all “Do you like veggie burgers? What would work for a BBQ for you?” She told me she likes the veggie hot dogs and boom, done. It’s all about just being considerate of others, J.F.C. Even if it means thinking ahead and having to rearrange things a bit.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            It may be a regional thing.

            It’s one of those places people who are vegans, vegetarians or gluten free, etc can roam free and not feel like an inconvenience.

            I got irrationally angry when we stopped in a small town for lunch on the coast awhile back. With my dairy free friends and they were shy about it. While I’m a boor over here all “Hey hi! Do your burger buns have dairy in them? Thanks!” They’re happy to ask in our “metro” areas but in those towns, where we’re from even, they shy away. No. I will steamroller all over the place and look at you like you’re the crazy one if you give me that “Argh this fancy city girl thinks she don’t need no meat!” attitude. I’m backwoods but I’m modernized, okay ;)

        2. Clisby*

          Yes, I would have thought accommodating vegetarians or dairy-free folks would be about the easiest thing going. I get that something like no nuts at all can be harder, but they should at least try. After all, if an employee has to avoid certain foods, surely the employee has a pretty good idea (1) that the workplace really can’t accommodate them, because of severe restrictions; or (2) how the workplace can accommodate them, by ordering from place X.

      2. Kathleen_A*

        Jeez. I work for an organization that is very meat-friendly, and even we manage to offer our 1-2 vegetarian employees things they can eat. Messing up early on when the vegetarians are new is one thing; continuing to do so over and over again is just *sloppy*.

      3. Kat in VA*

        I truly don’t understand this. When I cater for a large group, everyone has something to eat – the omnivores, vegetarians, vegans, and our gluten free folks!

    6. FormerFirstTimer*

      I don’t see why it’s so hard for these women to figure this out. I set up board dinners all the time and we literally keep a running spreadsheet of who can’t have what so we can make sure everyone can eat something. Granted, sometimes its a sad, sad, salad, but that’s on the actual restaurant, not me. Keeping the spreadsheet also protects us from liability because we ask everyone who comes onto the board (or staff) to let us know any special meal requirements they have and if it’s not on the list, they didn’t tell us and that’s on them.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I’m not 100% sure what’s up with them, but I think it has something to do with their overall approach to life. They’re very take-it-or-leave-it both professionally and personally.

    7. Third or Nothing!*

      YES! I talked to the VP and he said he’d treat me to anything available on Door Dash. I don’t know if this solution will be permanent or not, but I’m good with it if it is. I can order Lebanese! Thai! Indian! A dairy free pizza from the place across the street!

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m glad your VP takes care of you, at least this time because it’s your frigging birthday celebration FFS. I can almost accept it [if you squint and turn it sideways and shake the globe really hard] a “take it or leave it” attitude on free-food but not when you’re supposed to be the celebratory person, jfc!

  134. Caterpie*

    One of the admins for a specific interest group at my work forwards nearly every email that may be of slight interest to our group. We get all of these emails originally when they go out to all employees, and she just forwards them to our subgroup again within 0-10 minutes of the initial email. It’s getting a little frustrating because scanning my inbox for these has become a lot harder now that it shows her name as opposed to “Opportunity Source Inc”.

    I know it seems like a little thing but I’m spending a lot more time digging through my inbox, and getting duplicates of the same email is annoying. Some of the problem may just be our email provider and software setup.
    Unfortunately the way our email is, I can’t mute her without muting all emails from the interest group.

    I’m not sure why she forwards these since we get all of them already. I think it would be much more helpful if she made like a weekly opportunity “newsletter” (just copy and paste the original emails into one large one) if she really wants the info to be given out again.

    1. Jamie*

      Does she know you’re getting the originals? If not letting her know should make it stop. If she does and sends them anyway I’d just ask her to stop.

      I’d be tempted to ask her why she does that, because curious, but I wouldn’t even go there and just nicely tell her it’s not necessary and to stop.

    2. Business Librarian*

      Can you filter your email using her email address as the search term? Call up all her emails and go down the list deleting as you go. I’ve had to do this with a forward-happy colleague and it’s vastly satisfying.

  135. HereKittyKitty*

    Hello! I’m looking for a bit of “managing anxiety” advice.

    I have a new job and orientation starts on Monday in a whole different state, then I come back for the rest of the work week. I’m an introvert with an anxiety disorder and mild agoraphobia and it’s probably going to stretch me thin, and I know I’ll have a hard time eating since my reflex is barfing. Once I get into a routine this all goes away and I’m fine- but until then, any advice for how to carve out quiet time? My schedule seems pretty packed and full of lunches and dinners and socializing. What coping mechanisms do you have? It doesn’t look like I’ll be able to opt-out of any of the lunches or dinners.

    1. Professional Pup*

      Could you try waking up 30-60 minutes earlier so you could get in some ‘quiet time’ before the day starts? I like to plan out a little ritual (which also helps with feeling the need to control things — I get to plan and decide exactly what I want to do) — I’ll get up, brush teeth, do my skincare, make coffee, then sit back in bed or on the couch and listen to a meditation track, then get dressed and do my makeup and leave the house. You could do whatever you want – read, sit outside, journal, draw, whatever makes you happy.

      Also, if at all possible, try to get in as many 5 minute breaks as you can in those ‘transition’ times between meals and meetings. Hopefully they’ve built some into your schedule unofficially, at least, but if you find yourself really struggling with the pace of things, I think it’s reasonable to say, “Wow, that was a really great meeting/helpful training/etc, I’m going to take a quick break and make sure I got everything I needed,” or something like that. If that’s not possible, try to stretch out any bathroom breaks and give yourself a minute or two of quiet time.

      Lastly: whenever I’m forced to socialize I embrace the idea of ‘putting on a mask’ for other people and treat it like my alter ego. Normal!Me wants to come home, veg out on the couch, and not talk to anyone. AlterEgo!Me loves to make small talk, tells funny jokes, and people like her. I just pretend Normal!Me is taking a break while AlterEgo!Me does her thing.

      2. new kid*

        AlterEgo!Me is a thing I use a lot in my career, but especially when I’m trying to create good first impressions/build relationships. Like, would Normal!Me walk up to a presenter after a conference? No! She hates everything about that idea. But social butterfly AlterEgo!Me definitely wants to network about a similar project I’m doing, so I’ll let her do that for me.

        I think it’s one of those things that probably sounds super bizarre to people who don’t experience it, but it works really well.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I get you! Completely!

          RealMe is kinda snarly, doesn’t like people much, hates small talk and banter, is very blunt, and likes to just get $hit done without fuss.

          WorkMe is outgoing, friendly, patient, tactfully hears to all your woes, and will take plenty (as in, multiple) stops from my work that’s piling up to help YOU with YOUR problem.

          One reason I like my 1.5 hour each way commute – it gives me time to unwind and shed WorkMe for my real self!

    2. Lovecraft Beauty*

      My coping mechanisms for handling anxiety/over-socialization include exercise, massage, journaling, and meditation (not mindfulness! guided meditations, especially moving meditations, are more helpful to me) . Make sure to get enough sleep!

    3. LQ*

      I promise myself something nice if I get through it, carve out any evening or weekend time. It’s just a week and at 6 pm on Friday until 7 am on Monday you don’t have to see or talk to anyone or leave the house or do ANYTHING. I prep the weekend as hard as I can. Favorite book/movie/ice cream/something you’re really looking forward to. And then make sure that I know that there is an other side to this. I hold really hard to a list of painfully hard things that got better. The first week of college, the first day of camp, the first week of the last new jobs I’ve had, the other moments that I was sure I was going to drown in anxiety and here I still am.

      I’m a strong proponent of change out of work you when you get home as quickly as possible. And trying to leave work at the door as much as possible. I always prep for the next day before I leave so that I have a strategy to tackle it.

      Also try to remember that if you make a really good strong impression here people will let you slip on the social stuff a lot more later because you’ll already be burned into their brains this way.

      Good luck and congratulations.

      1. new kid*

        Really appreciate the ‘previous experiences I’ve survived’ list idea – I have lots of my own coping strategies for when I know my social anxiety will be off the charts (including some that you also mention) but that’s one I’d never really thought about in quite that context before that I think could really be helpful. Thank you!

    4. Kiwiii*

      I always bring face masks or “sleep” lotions or things to try and wind down at the end of the day of busy travelling. also if you can get a chunk of down time between your last Thing and the dinner, that might be nice to decompress. If you can find a lunch that really does seem optional, say you have an appointment you need to go to and assure them you’l be back for the 1PM thing and then find green space or a quiet cafe to decompress at.

      1. FormerFirstTimer*

        Sheet masks are perfect for travel too! I take them when I travel to our big yearly conference. It allows me a bit of self-care without worrying about making a mess in my hotel room.

  136. Professional Pup*

    Y’all, is it weird at work to sit, uh, differently? I mean not legs straight, feet on the floor. I’m very short and even at the lowest setting my desk chair isn’t low enough for me to comfortably touch the floor and sit all the way back in the chair. I have this problem with most chairs and prefer to sit crosslegged in the chair, or tuck one leg under myself and switch sides every so often. I work in a small office that’s not very formal, and I’m not within anybody’s line of sight when I’m just sitting at my desk in my cubicle. Nobody’s mentioned it to me or anything, but I realize it could seem weird, I guess? Any thoughts?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      It probably depends a little on your industry and workplace, but in general I’d say not weird at all. I have my own office, not a cubicle, but I’m right by a main walkway and people stop in and out all day. I sit in all kinds of odd positions all day and I don’t think anyone really even notices.

      I would just be cognizant of any times that you do want to present a smidgen more professionally, so I don’t sit like this in meetings or if I’m with a student or my boss. For day-to-day activities I think it’s fine.

    2. Jamie*

      I cannot imagine ever caring about how someone sits as long as they are comfortable.

      And doesn’t sit in my visitors chair and put their stockinged feet up on my desk because in that case…NO! But other than that I think you’re fine :)

    3. FormerFirstTimer*

      I’ve sat like that my entire professional life and never had anyone say anything to me about it.

    4. Kiwiii*

      I do this 100% of the time and no one has said anything besides to tease me a little when I complain about my legs falling asleep or something afterwards. A small concern is that when you sit improperly, it can aggravate or accelerate back pain from lots of typing when a desk or chair is improperly sized, so just be congnicent of that and make sure to take short breaks to stand or stretch, and if you start to notice any back or wrist pain maybe see if you can look into a more properly sized chair?

    5. Person from the Resume*

      It’s a bit informal, but you are not the first person on AAM who mentioned/asked about this.

      Personally in my home office I put a slight step under my desk so my feet reach the step when my chair is at the right ergonomic height for my arms. That could be a solution for you at work if you wish.

    6. Gidget*

      Short people problems. I feel ya. I am a big fan of the leg tuck-switch. I am so happy my desk has a closed front so no one can see all the weird ways I sit. When I am in more open settings I try to sit normally but sometimes I forget.

      I say if no one can see you and no one has said anything, keep doing what you’re doing. That being said, I did have one of the safety officers in my building mention that an ottoman/footstool thing is also considered a reasonable accommodation if you are too short to reach the floor (at least in my org, because it counts as personal protective equipment) so if anyone does say anything you could potentially ask for some similar accommodation.

    7. SarahKay*

      Fellow sitter-with-leg-tucked-under person here and I don’t think it’s weird – but then, I’m biased. I work in a fairly informal and friendly sort of team though, so I think someone would have made some sort of (non-mean) teasing remark if they thought it was odd.
      On the other hand, we had an HSE person not be keen that someone is sitting cross-legged on the chair; I think because they felt that in an office chair this can make the sitter a bit unstable. Not sure if it was outright forbidden or not in the end. My company is really serious about HSE though, and because we’re on a site that doesn’t do anything dangerous we really get down to the nitty-gritty on this sort of thing so YMMV.

    8. Quest*

      Ooh same — I like to sometimes tuck one leg under me. I find it very comfortable. I am short too, though my my legs do touch the floor. I often sit like this at work or even in class (though probably not when I’m in the front row). No one has ever commented on it. I don’t do this in meetings or other formal events.

    9. Librettist*

      I’m a weird sitter too. I usually don’t even realize that I am doing it! I have short legs and a wonky hip and it’s just way more comfortable to tuck one leg up underneath me. Other options I have found helpful: get a small stool or footrest to keep under the desk, or get a sit/stand doohickey and stand up when your sitting position starts feeling uncomfortable.

    10. Margaret*

      I’m sitting cross-legged on a yoga ball chair as I read this…

      Also short, I guess maybe that’s why I’ve tended to do this my whole life! I have a wide range of positions when sitting at my desk, which is a private office. I have a narrower range when in a meeting, especially if sitting in a large meeting of rows rather than at a table (e.g., I won’t sit fully crossed legged, but still tend to tuck one leg, alternating. No one’s ever said anything to me! The worst consequence is that I also slip my shoes off while I’m doing this, so when someone pops in and says “can you come look at something on my computer…” I have to quickly slip them back on!

      I’ve often felt, guilty isn’t quite the right word, but like I’m doing something wrong for the sake of not sitting in the proper ergonomic position – but it’s just more comfy to do this than even put a stool under my feet to sit “properly”. I’ve recently been reading about the concept of “natural movement” (I recommend the book “Don’t Just Sit There” by Katy Bowman), and according to that idea, constantly shifting positions is exactly what we should be doing! I feel vindicated.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m tall and sit like this all the time.

      As long as you don’t have a formal office, it really shouldn’t be an issue.

      Unless they’re worried about the ergonomics issues. Then they need to get a specialist in there to get you a proper chair for your size.

    12. YetAnotherUsername*

      I have this. Also short. They give me footrests at every job but footrests are awful. I have no idea who designed them. The wheels on most office chairs stretch so far forward that you have to have the footrest really far forward. And then you can’t reach it so it’s bloody pointless.

      I believe there are footrests you can attach to the office chair itself so you could ask about that maybe.

      Unfortunately if you sit with your feet up on a chair it makes people think of you as young. It’s the type of body language people associate with teenage girls and unfortunately in our culture teenage girls are pretty much considered the embodiment of all that is silly and stupid. (completely unfairly but it doesn’t seem the culture will change any time soon).

      I haven’t yet figured this out unfortunately so my only advice is to resist the temptation to be comfortable because sadly people associate sitting with your feet up on the chair with all the worst and most unfair stereotypes of teenage girls. It’s pure bigotry but I don’t know what else to do except be uncomfortable.

      Hoping some other commenters have ideas because this is actually a big problem for short people.

  137. stupid arches*

    I’m getting really tired of wearing uncomfortable flats and heels for work, especially with my tall arches and other foot issues. What’s the verdict of wearing oxfords as a women for business casual dress codes? Was thinking of getting these (https://www.zappos.com/p/clarks-raisie-bloom-black-leather/product/8893906/color/72) since the brand is pretty good at making comfortable shoes. For context, I am going to be changing jobs to a new finance company and HR told me that my department (operations) seems to dress more casual than the others. But would love thoughts and advice!

    1. Can I hear a Wahoo?*

      ….*bookmarks these for later*

      I have similar foot issues and am always struggling with shoes. These are cute!

    2. EA in CA*

      I wear a pair of black leather loafers, kinda similar in the shape and style of your example (mostly because I hate laces). I think oxfords gives off a kinda cool, retro vibe. I see nothing wrong with wearing them in a business casual environment.

    5. Clisby*

      I think oxfords as a type of shoe are fine, but wanted to check whether you’ve had custom orthotics made. I’ve never experienced this, but my son had soft tissue injuries from playing soccer, and had to have (in addition to PT) custom orthotics. Any time we get him shoes now, we have to make sure they work with the orthotics.

  138. All about BEC*

    I am an adult literacy tutor. My student has someone in his life that he is really frustrated with and now everything that person does upsets him. I recently told him about BEC (b*tch eating crackers) and he wants to read the article. Any time I can interest him in reading, I’m excited. I thought the first use was in AAM, but I haven’t been able to find it. Do any of you remember the story that originated that phrase? Thanks for your help!

  139. Stephen!*

    If you start floundering in an interview and one of the interviewers steps in and tactfully redirects you, should you acknowledge that graceful intervention in a thank you note, or (as I would prefer) pretend like it never happened and maybe take the rest of the day off to do sad drinking which is a total overreaction but oh lord I really could not get my thoughts and words to work with each other at that moment (the rest of the interview was okay).

    1. CAA*

      You don’t need to bring it up in your thank you note if you just want to thank them for clarifying the question or explaining something you misunderstood or helping you when you were tongue tied. It’s embarrassing in the moment for the candidate, but it happens all the time when people are nervous and if this interviewer is experienced, she’s seen it before.

      You learned something about the interviewer though — she helps people who are flailing around and she’s able to provide tactful redirection when necessary. That’s a positive first impression, and if she’d be the hiring manager or a close coworker, that’s nice to know.

    2. FormerFirstTimer*

      This doesn’t really answer your question, but I did the same thing in my last job interview as well, and here I sit 2 years later, at the job I thought I bombed the interview for. It’s all a matter of perspective and I think when things like that happen to us, we tend to make a bigger deal out of them than they actually are. Good luck!

  140. FormerFirstTimer*

    Would requiring your employees to endure a 10+ hour car ride (when normally all business travel is done via plane) so you can stop and see a friend on the way be unprofessional? Even if you’re the boss? Asking for a friend.

    4. rubyrose*

      Yes, unprofessional. I’m assuming the total travel time by plane (flight time, drive to and from airport, TSA, check-in, etc.) is a lot less than 10 hours. If you require them to travel by car you are stealing their time.
      Why can’t they fly and the boss drive?

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Yes, this! If this would normally be done by plane, why can’t the boss drive and everyone else can fly?

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Friend or no friend, I wouldn’t want to be subjected to a 10+ hour car ride with my boss. I reserve that for my partner, my dog, and my closest friend.

      That plan sounds ludicrous to me. Boss can drive and meet everyone there.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      10hrs in a car is pretty exhausting and can be dangerous, it’s better to put them on a plane and take care of them.

      Why can’t the boss drive and meet them there, while they fly? Why do they have to travel together?

      I’ve had people opt to drive verses plane for various reasons. Fine but don’t drag anyone else along with you!

      It’s not just unprofessional, it’s disrespectful. Unless they’re saying “Man I wish we could road trip, let’s road trip!”

      It’s also not cost effective unless you’re not paying them for their travel time then triple yuck!

      1. FormerFirstTimer*

        Boss wants to use the time for “bonding”. This question actually relates to something that has already passed. They did end up flying but Boss was pissed and has been on my friend’s case about how unprofessional they are. We’re talking going so far as to send Friend to seminars about how to behave professionally. Dude sounds nuts to me.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          That’s asinine. That boss is awful and sounds like the boss that made their employee wear their old clothes and was mad when they had to to go the ER for tripping on a street grate [I think that was what happened, foggy mind is foggy.]

          He’s batsh*t.

          And I totally haven’t had an “Asking for a friend” turn out to be a friend in so long, I so thought you were trying to get permission as “the boss” to do this to someone. You’re absolutely right, this boss is out.to.frigging.lunch.

    8. Clisby*

      10+ hours in car? For a business trip? No.

      Granted, I do put up with 10 hour car rides when we leave SC to go back to see family in OH, but (a) we stop for the night along the way so this isn’t 10 hours of straight driving; and (b) we get along pretty well because we’re parents and children. OK, I guess that last one isn’t a given, but so far it’s been true. I would not be doing that with co-workers.

  141. Nacho*

    Kind of pissed off at my job atm. One of the tools I need for my job has been broken for a long time, like over a year now. It’s slow, complicated, and cumbersome when it works, and randomly doesn’t have the information it should around 10-20% of the time I use it, at which point I have to tell our business partners “sorry, I have no idea how that happened, but you still have to pay for it.”.

    Last month we were given access to a new version of the same tool that was faster, simpler, easier to use, and never didn’t have the correct information. Then about a week later, we lost access to it with a message that it was in closed alpha so we don’t get to use it anymore. The tool still worked, but the link was no longer usable, so when I accidentally closed it, there was no way to re-open it again. Asked my boss about getting New!Tool back, but he said it was unlikely.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The company must really being struggling for capital or is excessively cheap, which honestly I’ve seen it both ways but it’s usually because they’re suffering for money =(

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this nonsense, it’s no way to run a business and your customers will go somewhere else if possible if it continues like this. Yuck. But that’s not your problem, your problem is having to struggle to do your work and that’s asinine.

  142. PersistentCat*

    Wage benchmarking was announced this week at my job; I was disappointed that my manager okay’d the decision to benchmark me against a QA Tech II role as opposed to a QA Specialist II (or even I) role, which I feel was more accurate around my job responsibilities & would have made a significant change in my salary. My title is actually “Administrator”, which is so infrequently used in this industry, it’s practically meaningless. While I’m okay with my salary, it’s still low for the level of responsibility I actually have & the years of experience I have. How should I broach this next year? I’m working on tracking my work so that I may bring my job description more in line with the duties I actually perform. Should I be doing anything else to move me to that next pay bracket? For what it’s worth, it’s a 7k difference in median pay between the Tech II & Specialist I roles, and a 20k difference between tech II & specialist II…and last I knew, techs don’t typically perform trend analysis, detailed investigations & corrective actions, internal audits, or write procedures…Maybe that’s changed in the 6 years since I was last a tech.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I would revisit that now, if benchmarking is just now happening, rather than wait til next year. If you have a full list of your responsibilities and the job description for a QA Specialist, can you present that as comparable? It kind of sounds like manager is taking the path of closest salary match rather than closest actual job match, which is going to shortchange you quite a bit.

      Otherwise, would you consider going on the market as a QA Specialist, because a potential $20k jump in pay is kind of a good incentive to do so.

    2. Baru Cormorant*

      We are wage benchmarking now, and there should be a job description for the roles they are comparing you to. If it’s too low for your duties now, I would push back now before it’s set in stone and you have to justify a promotion to what your job is now. Or ask if they can make a middle-role between those benchmarks if that would be more accurate to your job.

  143. scavengerhunter*

    Does anyone have website recommendations on where to find decently-priced business casual wear or maybe thrift-store websites? I cannot afford $200 blazers so I’ve been trying to find websites other than thredup for my new office wardrobe. I understand that paying high prices for quality will always win out against fast-fashion items but I cannot afford to spend my whole meager paycheck on fancy items just yet.

    1. Mama Bear*

      I honestly troll thrift stores (or consignment, depending on the need) and the sales racks of all the higher end stores. I won’t spend $200 on a blazer but end of season sale rack? Yes, please. Or I’ll buy something that’s not 100% the right fit for a good price and get it tailored. I’ve found NWT Ann Taylor dresses at the thrift store and gotten them hemmed. I shop a lot of Land’s End these days. I’ll also go to a site like ModCloth and set the search for X price point and stop scrolling at that point.

    2. Kiwiii*

      old navy, kohls, target, and jc penney have pretty good options for cheap business wear and tend to have really accessible clearance and sale options. when I had to put together a business casual wardrobe on the fly, i scoured my wardrobe for anything that might work and then i literally grabbed every piece of arguably office appropriate clothing from kohls (that fit and i could wear in multiple outfits) and mixed and matched until i had 6 or 7 decent outfits, which lasted me fine until a season change, and then i bought 4 more still pretty cheap things to keep me going from there. also — if your pieces are pretty plain/staples, no one notices if you wear the same pants 2 or 3 times/week.

        1. fposte*

          They’ve all got websites, though! And I recommended Target and Penney based solely on the websites.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t know your size range, but I’d start with Target and J. C. Penney. A quick look found a bunch of stuff in the $20-$40 range. You won’t be getting lined wool twill but you probably knew that.

      You didn’t ask this, but if you’re looking for wool sweater staples, I highly recommend Lord and Taylor sales. It’s too early for them, but after New Year (and maybe earlier?) they’ll be about $20 for merino wool.

    4. philosophical_conversation*

      JC Penny is great, I’ve also found that Zara and H&M have some nice options.
      It’s also worth it to take a look at Ann Taylor Factory, Loft Factory, or JCrew Factory. I’ve found a lot of decently-priced business casual wear there.
      Amazon Wardrobe also has some hidden gems, just make sure that it has free returns.

      1. Clisby*

        I’ll second H&M. Not for me, but it’s worked well for my 23-year-old daughter, and I think the clothes are more professional looking than Forever 21 (in the same price range). I’ve never bought from the website, though – just from the one in my city.

    5. MaxiesMommy*

      Don’t forget ebay if you have one or two makers that you know fit well. I can justify spending a bit more on certain pieces if I know they won’t need alterations. And now when it’s sweltering is a great time to buy cashmere.

    6. zora*

      I constantly troll the outlet sites: Nordstrom Rack, Saks Off Fifth, DSW for shoes.
      I find good things on there, you just have to sift through the weird stuff ;)
      Also TJ Maxx has a website now, that has some good stuff.

    7. Coverage Associate*

      If you can figure out your size in major brands, I love eBay. I use it to get jeans and shoes for my husband too.

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      I have *really* good luck with Target. And if getting their store credit card is an option, shipping is free.

    10. Reliquary*

      eBay is an absolute treasure trove of used upscale clothing in beautiful condition. (Of course, you have to look carefully at photos and sometimes even ask the seller questions about condition.) I buy things there that I could not ever afford if I paid retail.

    11. RI Rose*

      There’s an online service called thredUP (no “a” in Thred if you want to Google it). Heard it advertised but haven’t used it myself…

  144. Metikon*

    Has anyone navigated a workplace rebellion/coup as a middle manager? Our organization is struggling with significant morale issues from recently staff changes and policy changes, and staff are beginning to organize to present grievances to the board. I’ve been invited to join their conversation, which is conducted on personal email. I’m a middle manager, but I’m trusted and respected by staff. I know my personal allegiance will always be 100% with labor over management, and I also agree with staff that executive leadership must change or our organization is going to lose valuable staff and start failing to meet our mission. I think that the best outcome from this process would be for key leadership to be replaced. However, I don’t know if its ethical for me to participate in this conversations, even just as a listener, and not inform leadership. But informing leadership might result in retaliatory actions against staff, or in some way undermine the movement.
    Can I ethically join this conversation as a middle manager?

    1. Jamie*

      I totally get your feelings on this…but if you are privy to information that is likely to impact the business I think as a manager you have a responsibility to share that information with other members of management so you can prepare for that.

      Labor definitely has the right to discuss workplace concerns, but if you’re actively involved in their discussions (even as a lurker) it puts you in a really crappy position when it comes out that you knew and didn’t say anything.

      But from a moral standpoint, when you know management will cause harm by the way they will address it, or handle it unethically, then …I wouldn’t say anything either.

      But being pragmatic, I wouldn’t join their email group or participate in the discussions…I’d be shooting for plausible deniability and protecting myself when dealing with unethical management.

      IMO the best stance would be to stay out of their discussions, but be their ally by advocating for what is best for them and the business when it all comes to a head.

      1. Metikon*

        That makes sense. I think I’ll be in a stronger position when everything starts going down if I can advocate for staff from my own perspective of where I sit, and not from having been involved in their conversations in any way.

  145. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Early last week, I had a panel interview for a fedjob I think would be a superb fit for my skillset.
    However, it’s been 1 week and 3 days and no phone call and no email either way :(((

    My current job: my boss is on vacation, and I feel slightly neglected (as in, the law branch I helped out 3 months ago got its own fed hires and doesn’t know what to do with me). I’m editing a 40 page strategic document but I am so, soooooo bored. And though bigboss said it’s slow season now, it seems like everyone and their mother here is brimming with specialized work except me.

    Commute-wise because of moving next month(!!!): The fedjob would be a 40 min metro commute (no telework until year 2), and the current job would become a 1 hr metro commute with 1 day of telework every week (so, 4 days in the office).

    For fedfolks, what was the time between panel interview and offer?

    1. Mama Bear*

      Federal jobs can take for-ev-er to get back to you. That you got to the interview stage is good. The upside is that generally a fed job has processes and will be unlikely go ghost you. You should get a notification one way or another. What was the closing date of the posting?

      1. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

        Thanks; closing date was around 8/15 and invitation to interview came 72 hrs after that…

    2. Policy wonk*

      Rules usually require us to interview everyone who made the cert of people HR deemed qualified, so if they have not yet worked through the list you won’t hear back until they do. Unfortunately, there have been times where HR has not notified the unsuccessful candidates, so I’d give it another week (esp. given this was over Labor Day), then follow up.

  146. bare faced*

    Finally got my first post-college full-time job… and I really don’t want to wear makeup.

    I went to my interview with literally the minimum (foundation, setting powder, eyebrow pencil) and broke out the next day. I have moderate acne scars and get the occasional pimple when I’m stressed but I rarely wear makeup because it’s irritating and the odors sometimes give me a headache. This job will be in a slightly more formal setting compared my previous office jobs, where no one batted an eye if I arrived bare faced, but will this be a huge deal if I didn’t wear makeup?

    1. fposte*

      Depends on the job–what did other women there look like. Usually even in places that want it it’s not so much that makeup is required as a “polished look” is required, which can often be achieved with hair and accessories (like, if you have straight hair keep it trimmed and contained, and keep the shoes in good condition and polished).

      And while this is seriously YMMV, to me foundation is well beyond the minimum, so if you wanted to try a different approach with eye stuff and lipstick but no foundation, I think that would work in most places as well.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, foundation application is work. Applying a tinted moisturizer is quicker and easier, especially since it just gives you a glow instead of a done up look.

    2. Muriel Heslop*

      I have some of the same struggles and I JUST found a product that helps me so much:
      DR. JART+ Cicapair ™ Tiger Grass Color Correcting Treatment SPF 30. It’s natural and smooths out my redness and bumps, has suncreen and my skin quality is improving. (It’s a expensive but a little goes a long and it’s the only thing I am buying. That and some tinted Burt’s Bees and I feel so fancy! Sephora will probably give you a sample to try out if you have a store near you. Not sure where else it’s available. It’s REALLY helped my confidence because I feel so good about my skin.

      That said, if you don’t want to wear makeup, don’t. Life is too short.

      1. Exhausted Trope*

        I’ve used Dr. Jart’s in the past as my skin reacts angrily to nearly any foundation and liked it a lot. Very soothing but did give my skin a whitish cast. A touch of bronzer helped tremendously.

      1. YetAnotherUsername*

        Same. I work in a male dominated field and it’s way worse to wear a lot of makeup than none at all. Most women wear a little but lots of us wear none.

        OP this is really field dependent and office dependent.

    4. EA in CA*

      I rarely wear make up as well. I think if you look well groomed and tidy, it shouldn’t matter. However, take cues from the women in your office, especially those in senior or management roles to give you a baseline of what may be expected in your office culture.

      For me the basics are eyebrow pencil, a little eye shadow, concealer (when I need it), and mascara. I make sure that I take care of my skin with a really good quality skin care routine so I minimize the need for foundation.

      1. bare faced*

        I’ve only met a handful of people during the interviews and it does seem like the women usually wear some makeup. But not sure if it’s due to the industry (accounting/finance) or the company culture itself? I’m hoping to get by with eyebrow pencil and concealer but I’ll try asking around.

        Also, my hesitance about whether to go without makeup or not is due to my acne scarring. I have a pretty good skincare routine but these scars seem to be permanent, which makes me worry about looking unprofessional in the office ugh. I envy that your skin doesn’t need foundation, that would be the dream for me!!

        1. EA in CA*

          My sister has severe eczema which resulted in a lot of scarring on her cheeks. So she is in the same boat as you. But she doesn’t wear any make up except for her eyebrows and is in a senior leadership role within a new organization. I have a milder case and can maintain it with a regiment diet and skin care. If you look really polished, then no one is going to bat an eye if you aren’t wearing make up or if you are wearing very little of it. you’ll be fine. :)

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          I have really bad acne scarring on my face and didn’t start wearing makeup to work until six years into my professional, post-grad career. I was also promoted a couple times and sent to networking events/seminars at the behest of the leadership at my companies – all while barefaced, lol. Then again, I always dressed well and kept my hair nicely styled, so no one could say that I looked unprofessional.

    5. new kid*

      10+ years into my career now, director level role, and have never worn make up. Not to an interview, not a single day in any office I’ve worked in, including when I was consulting and client-facing. I don’t want to diminish the crazy expectations that society has for women’s appearances, but I promise you that not wearing make up is not a career ender. I would say the same even if you didn’t want to wear it for other reasons (laziness, even! in my case lol) but especially especially because you have a bad reaction to it!! That doesn’t sound worth it to me at all.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      I work with a lot of people who either don’t wear makeup, or wear it so minimally that you can’t tell.

      If you want to cover your skin sometimes, you might try a tinted moisturizer, or a foundation primer instead of foundation, which would help “blur” things without being actually makeupy. Also, mineral foundation is very fast and easy to apply. But none of this is necessary, it’s just a choice.

    7. juliebulie*

      I haven’t worn makeup in almost ten years.

      I figured that if (most) men don’t need makeup, even if they have scars or other skin issues, then I don’t need it. Now I wish I could get back all the time I spent putting it on in the decades before I quit.

      Most women in most offices still wear makeup, true. But not all of them. And anyone who would judge you for wearing less of it, or having acne scars, is someone whose priorities are waaaaay out of whack.

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Professional with a 30-year work history here. I’ve essentially never work makeup to work, whether retail sales, historical site, office admin, client-facing lawyering, or court.

    9. Margaret*

      That’s such a subjective thing – both wearing makeup in general, and what is the “minimum” – i.e., 10 years ago I would have defined the minimum similar to you, plus mascara (blonde, so mascara feels like a must have to me!). Nowadays, it just means mascara plus lipstick. I sometimes use concealer if my eye circles feel particularly dark or for the occasional pimple. I find that a good lotion makes my skin look “even” enough without using foundation or powder and the resulting risk of a breakout.

      Basically, I think either doing the minimum to either cover up “flaws” or highlight things you like, subjectively in your opinion, that makes you feel polished and put together is great. If that means eyebrows and lipgloss for you, just go with that. If means nothing, and you’re feel you look overall polish and put together, go with that. It’s much more about the overall approach than specific components.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Lots of women do not wear makeup. This isn’t the 50’s, you don’t need to worry too much! Just be well put together and go from there, don’t force it.

      I didn’t wear makeup much aside from mascara [because I have red eyelashes and therefore look like I have no eyelashes otherwise and I personally hate it on myself only, everyone else, it looks fine but you know, self image and all that stuff!]

      Most places really do lowkey makeup when they do unless you’re in beauty sales or something like that. The woman who sold me my car awhile ago didn’t wear any from what I could tell. The CPA’s and doctors I go to don’t wear it, so it just isn’t a thing in a lot of corners of society. So please, just look your best, with what doens’t make you break out and go from there!

    11. NicoleK*

      Professional with almost 20 years work history. I suffer from acne and will use foundation or concealer to spot cover blemishes, but I’m usually make up free.

  147. Wilhelmina Constance*

    It’s been a really intense week. I applied for that internal transfer, had an interview and got offered the role!
    It even comes with a small payrise (which I wasn’t expecting – I’m already at the top of the starting salary range listed on the external advert). The important thing is the job-based training though – I’m finally going to be sponsored to get my accounting qualification.
    I’m super excited. No start date yet – the HR lady wasn’t in today (when it really all came together), so I now have to wait until Monday to find out what happens next…

    Happy weekend everyone!

  148. SophieChotek*

    Should I follow-up?
    Had a phone interview on August 14th, was told that I would be told “in a week” if I would be asked for in-person interview.
    I did send a “thank you” email the day after the phone interview.

    Would you follow up? (I read AAM’s post about following up, “What to Say” (Oct 2013).
    I always worry an important email will get lost/go to spam!

    I’ve already mentally move on as best I can/assumed I didn’t get the job
    But obviously not completely, if I am wondering…

    1. fposte*

      In the phraseology you use, not hearing from them means you didn’t get the interview. Was that their phraseology? If so, I wouldn’t follow up. (Usually you can check the spam folder for emails–are you doing that?)

      1. SophieChotek*

        I have been checking the spam folders….but have so much spam (and I cannot “search” spam for a specific sender, unfortunately).

        Thanks!

        1. Zephy*

          If you’re using Gmail, I’ve noticed that important emails that have attachments sometimes get sent to the Trash folder, for some reason. Have you looked there?

  149. Shiny alolan raichu*

    My job is split into two. One half I’m good at (I’ve got the best skills on my team), the other half I’m ok at best.

    I haven’t used the skillset I’m good at in quite some time and I’m feeling really, really crap at my job at the mo :(

    Any suggestions as to how I can feel better about myself, because I’m using this as s tool to beat myself up :(

    1. Jamie*

      Any way you can get some projects that allow you to use the skills where you feel stronger? Any opportunities you can seek out?

      I’ve been there and I’ve found it helpful to create my own opportunities at times.

      For instance, I was the director of IT and two other departments for over 10 years. I’m now in a new job as an individual contributor (kinda) over one of the “other” departments. I’m not IT here.

      Sometimes I really miss IT.

      So when IT needs come up I tend to insert myself, as it were. Servers went down and I ran to the server room and started checking stuff out before I remembered it’s not my job here and I didn’t have admin access. Opps! But now…some official IT stuff on my plate and it’s like a comforting fleece blanket of happiness.

      1. Shiny alolan raichu*

        JAMIE!!!! You haven’t been round these parts for an age. It’s nice to see you!

        There are some projects coming up soon where I can use them but nothing right now. But maybe I can create some opportunities as you say. I’ll keep my eyes open. Thank you!

        1. Jamie*

          Thanks :)

          One half I’m good at (I’ve got the best skills on my team)

          What you have to remember is just because you aren’t using those skills atm doesn’t take them out of your arsenal.

          When dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was beginning my career as a temp I was sick with stress every assignment because new people, new places, small talk…all the things that turned me into a Gordian knot of anxiety. Then I stopped looking at myself as the “new temp” all the time and started thinking of myself as a hired gun. An office ninja. Wouldn’t have called if they didn’t need me, and even if they don’t need all my skills I’ve got them in case they do.

          I have the thought processes of a cartoon sometimes and used to be super good at tricking myself with my own mental gymnastics…but reframing it in your own head will help until you can bust out those skills again.

  150. Captain Janeway*

    I’m a young female lawyer working closely with a team of four other young lawyers–all male, and our boss is male. It seems like they immediately have an easy camaraderie/rapport with each other that I lack. I also notice I can get along great with each one individually, but start feeling like an outsider when three or more of us are in a conversation or on a project. There’s nothing overtly sexist about this environment or the individuals; they’re great. Anyone else experienced this feeling? Thoughts on whether it’s my heightened awareness of my gender or something real (or how to tell the difference)? Tips on breaking into the boys’ club?

    1. Catsaber*

      I get this feeling with my team, as I am the only woman on an all-male database team in my IT department (state university). I really enjoy my team, as we all get along well and work well together, but sometimes when it’s the whole group, I feel a little bit like an outsider. The most “overt” thing I’ve noticed is that the guys will go to lunch together in various combinations and I’m typically not invited. However I think that’s partly because I like to take my lunch break early (like 11am instead of 12), so they all just kind of figure I prefer lunch early/on my own. Like you, nothing overtly sexist has occurred, and they are all great people, but I still have that feeling.

      However the feeling has certainly lessened with time. How long have you been on this team? When I first started, the feeling was a lot stronger, but as I’ve gotten to know each of them, our group camaraderie has gotten better. Another thing is that I started inviting myself to stuff. That felt SUPER WEIRD at first, because I’ve very much not a person who invites herself to things, but they were very accepting of this and no one seemed to have an issue…also I noticed the guys inviting themselves to things, so I followed their lead (things like lunches “I love pho! can I come?” or meetings where I wanted to learn something “I’ve been wanting to learn more about X, mind if I join?” etc., I didn’t invite myself to meetings where it was obviously not my work).

      Also – I’m a big believer in sharing knowledge. I have had to battle “silos” in my entire career in higher ed IT because people love to hoard knowledge here. Something I have done with everyone is document and share knowledge freely – how things are done, what’s going on, the impact different systems and processes have on each other – and this has been great at getting others to share their knowledge with me. I found that was helpful when trying to break into any kind of clique in my jobs.

      These may or may not be applicable to you, but I hope things get better for you and good luck!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m a woman among all men, I have always been for the most part. I also grew up with uncles and very few women around me outside my mom and her friends here and there.

      One of the things to remember is to try to remove gender from it. Which is easier said than done but don’t look at it as “the boys” and “Me over here, the girl.” It’s not grade school, we don’t have to be “ick nast, boys!” or “No girls allowed!”.

      I just talk to them like I would talk to a group of anyone, ever. We’re all on the same playing field, aside from our gender. I don’t treat the men any different than a woman because why? It’s about rewiring yourself, while still thinking about the fact that YES sexism is a thing, YES, some men and women are grotesque and go that direction. But you can usually sniff them out, it’s more than just that discomfort you are feeling when it’s a group and you’re the only one with a pony tail or whatever it may be =)

  151. lnelson in Tysons*

    Under the other articles of this Friday’s thread:
    “Looking for a job is a full time job”
    Agree that it isn’t completely true as my experience the search goes in waves: the applying, following up, potentially phone and in person interviews, then the waiting. No new jobs come up, etc.
    But what I do think is sometimes true: your current job can interfere with your job hunting.
    I’ve temped as well as looked for something better (variety of reason) and there are times when you are trying to line up an interview. At the end of the day your current position is still what’s paying the bills. Sure, you might have a 3pm phone screen. But right before the call is scheduled your boss call you into her/his office and needs you to do something immediately. I once had a phone interview scheduled for a certain time, but the company’s lawyer, whom I really did need to speak to, called a bit before the scheduled call. Never was able to reschedule the interview, although the interviewer said that she understood why I wasn’t able to take her call.

  152. instafamous*

    As a result of a concussion / mild TBI, I have developed symptoms very similar (I think?) to those with ADD/ADHD.

    Mainly: very difficult to focus, super distractible, less focused on details, very forgetful, very disorganized. I have a doctor and am handling things from the medical side, but does anyone have any tips from on how to manage this at work and life?

    1. fposte*

      The askjan dot org website has a whole section on executive functioning deficits and tools and accommodations that might help. (That’s a broad term so some of it may not apply to you.) I’ll post the link in followup; on that page there’s also a link to a document that breaks some of the possibilities down, which looks like it might be helpful.

    2. Oxford Comment*

      In addition to keeping notes, alarms/reminders, and detailed to-do lists, have you seen a neuropsychologist or a speech-language pathologist? Additional therapy, on top of the medical management for your mTBI, may be helpful for developing compensatory strategies and addressing the attention difficulties you’re having.

  153. short leg jeans*

    I have laughably short legs and can never find a chair/desk combo where my feet can touch the floor. At home, I use a small stool to help with my posture…. Can I do something similar for my office job? I was thinking about getting a small, black stool that I could hide under my work desk and explain it as a health benefit. Because I can feel the back pain starting if I’m sitting down for a while with my legs dangling. Any other short-legged people share my pain? My legs are so short that I need to wear ankle-length, waist pants if I want to avoid alterations :(

    1. fposte*

      I share your pain to the point of back surgery. Get the stool. Nobody should have any problem with it. (Rubbermaid makes a good one but you can also get collapsible ones; Amazon has several.)

    3. Catsaber*

      Many, many people have stools or various feet things under their desks. I myself have a rocking footstool I got from Amazon for $20 (and I loooove it). It’s an extremely common thing to do. You could check with your boss if you want to make sure it’s okay. The only concern I can think of is if there are safety rules surrounding that.

    4. zora*

      footstools are such a normal part of a workstation set up! I’m average height, but I use a foot stool. Don’t overthink this, get the stool! You shouldn’t have to hide it, it’s similar to a lumbar support or a wrist support for a mouse. In fact, I would even ask whoever orders office supplies first if it’s something they would order. We order things like that for our employees, we want our folks to be comfortable and physically healthy!

      1. SarahKay*

        Seconded about checking if your work will buy it. For my work we’d (‘we’ being the company) be horrified if you bought such a thing for yourself – but only because we would absolutely expect to pay for a footstool or footrest ourselves if it was needed.

    5. valentine*

      A stool should be fine. Maybe put your name and location instructions on it and a note for cleaners or other workers who might move it.

    6. Third or Nothing!*

      I am 5′ 0″ tall so I feel your pain. My legs are currently propped up on an overturned trash can under my desk. Sometimes I’ll even sit cross legged in my chair.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      I feel your pain (including the fact that ankle pants are full length on me). Have you looked into an actual footrest?

    8. Seifer*

      At my last job, I had… a heated footrest… I should’ve taken it with me when I quit.

      But yeah definitely get the stool, the footrest, whatever you want. I just tell people that I have short people problems if anyone asks.

    9. juliebulie*

      I have a little footstool at my desk for just that reason.

      The “ergonomics” guy at work was actually supposed to get one for me, but then he left the company. Then while cleaning out some other cubicles, someone from facilities found a couple of footstools, and I grabbed one because it wasn’t nailed down. (Before that, I had been using a cardboard box.)

      And don’t get me started on pants lengths.

    10. Notthemomma*

      I have brought my own $10-15 step stool to every job I’ve had. Just mark it up so it’s clear it isn’t standard issue – I jut my name and ‘personal item from home’ on it. No one has ever commented. But if work will pay for one, do that.

  154. London Calling*

    My company does an annual staff survey – how we perceive the company, what we think of the teamwork or lack of it, our views on the company ‘vision.’ You know the sort of thing. Conducted by an outside company, totally confidential, let your flag fly and tell us your opinions.

    First question on opening the survey – what department do you work in? now, we’re not a big place, 200 people at most and some of those are small teams. Is it just me or are my expections that totally confidential means ‘we won’t ask anything that will identify you in any way’ different from those people’s?

    1. Grapey*

      Not just you. Just lie. It works better when you have a 2000+ employee organization and ‘departments’ are 100 ppl or so, not smaller teams.

    2. Not Me*

      Can you be vague like “accounting” instead of “East Coast Payables Accounting Team 2”? Or would that still make it clear who you are?

      1. London Calling*

        Nah, they have the choice of department already there, unfortunately. Mind you, if they can identify me they might wish I hadn’t bothered when they read my comments, esp when it came to the company ‘vision’. If they can identify individuals I’m doomed :)

        We did have a whingey email about the low take up but that might be because we’re preparing for a Big Happening and filling in surveys isn’t top of the priority list for a lot of people.

    3. WellRed*

      Well, that’s not ideal, but they may want to get a feel for how these things break down by department, especially if they sense there are any problematic ones.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I can see both sides. Yes, it makes it almost impossible to be anonymous. But if they want to know where the problems are, their only option is to ask where the problem reporters are.

    5. Frankie*

      Confidential and anonymous are two different terms. Anonymous means no identifying information. Confidential means the info you share will not be shared associated with your name. Since it’s an outside company, it’s likely this confidentiality will actually be easier to keep than if it were internal.

      I would guess they need departmental info to identify any trends in perceptions, or problem areas that need to be addressed.

    6. Aggretsuko*

      That sounds pretty typical for “anonymous” surveys these days. I wouldn’t fill it out if I could get away with it, and if I couldn’t, I’d give 5 stars to everything.

    7. a survey person*

      So I’m a survey person. There should be some kind of statement, either in the email invite or in the first page, telling you that groups of below X number will not be reported on to protect anonymity. They should also say something like “we will proof read the comments to remove identifying comments but please don’t identify yourself through the comments”. It’s something I’m highly aware of these days. If these things aren’t present, beware. In our survey that we run we use software that’s able to identity whether people have responded or not and remind only those who haven’t responded, but you can’t export a list of non-responders.

      +1 to Frankie’s comment: anonymous means we can’t identify you (one if our surveys we no longer claim is anonymous, as we have to ask so many routing questions that we could certainly identity some respondents, but we do aggregate data to prevent this getting out, and we don’t actually do it – it would just be possible). Confidential means you can potentially be identified but the survey provider won’t report to that level.

      Happy to answer any other questions if you’re curious.

    8. Ron McDon*

      Haha, this is very familiar!

      I work in an educational setting, and we were sent an anonymous staff survey to fill in one year.

      The first question asked for our department- there are three of us who work in the admin department, so that was a very identifying question!

      I spoke to the deputy head (who was coordinating the survey) and said that my team weren’t comfortable being as candid as we would like as it would be very obvious which responses were ours.

      He explained that they only asked that so they could identify in which areas of the school certain issues were arising, but sent an email to all staff shortly thereafter confirming that he had amended the survey so you could select ‘prefer not to say’ as an option for that question. I think most staff selected that option.

      If you will be easily identified by your dept I would feel very uneasy giving full feedback. I have witnessed people being treated differently after doing so, even when employers swear that that won’t happen.

      Can you say you’re in a different dept?

  155. Managergal*

    Tl;dr there’s been a major bait and switch with my new job re: travel. During the interview process I was told no more than a week every two months, and I was clear that I could accommodate that but no more. 3 months in and I’m travelling every. single. week. Additionally, my grandboss just shocked me by saying they’re planning to eventually send me on international travel- something I was explicitly told I would never do, and I know for a fact my position has historically never done. I was asked during the interview process why I couldn’t travel frequently, and i was so surprised by the question I said I have caretaking duties. I’ve been asked a few times for the specifics of those since I don’t have kids. The truth is I have diagnosed anxiety which is usually very well controlled but travelling really exacerbates it, and we are struggling with conceiving which means every fertile day I spend alone in a hotel room I am frustrated (and anxious). Neither of these truths will go down well with my 60+, male, very old school chain of command in a traditional, male dominated industry. I’m actively job searching but it’s slow going, in no small part I’m sure due to my short tenure in my current role. What do you all recommend I do? I tried pushing back and was told this is an unusually busy travel period, which may or may not be true. Disclosing anxiety or fertility struggles will likely get me blacklisted from advancement or written off, refusing to travel at all will get me fired before I have a job to go to. Do I push back on this international travel now (that is a hard line for me) or wait until an actual trip materializes? Stick out the travel for a few months and then push back once my credibility is established? Disclose my anxiety and request an accommodation of less travel and take the consequences?

    1. WellRed*

      Ouch this is tough. Ideally, you would have been able to tell them when pressed during the interview phase that you are not interested in a job with frequent travel. Lots of people aren’t and there’s no particular Reason. If you think the only reason you aren’t getting traction on the job search is your short tenure here, leave it off your resume. This company sounds like a bad fit for you.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I have to agree, this is not a good job for you. They shouldn’t be prying about why you can’t travel more, they should take you at your word that it’s not possible and honor their own that they wouldn’t ask you to travel so often or internationally. But, they’re prying and pushing and it’s not likely to get better. I’d leave off the current job if short stays are an issue in your field. Good luck!

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Every week is insane – I’d definitely talk to the manager and ask to cut back on the travel since what you were told was it would only be once every two weeks. I’d bring up the caregiving duties, but not the fertility treatments, and go from there. Good luck – this is a crappy situation to end up in when you thought you did your due diligence and were given incorrect information.

  156. Anonymous Need to Leave*

    How do I let my boss know I want to apply for internal positions when one of my primary criteria is “not at this physical location”?

    I actually really like my current job (first job out of school), but I moved cross country to take it and after 5 years of trying my spouse and I still hate our new area. My job is literally the only thing keeping us from leaving this place, and as time goes on it doesn’t feel worth it anymore. It sounds clear that I’m due for a search, but I’m stuck on how to approach it.

    I like the company very much and would love to look at internal positions. My manager is very supportive and would be willing to advocate for me… but the most closely related positions are at my same location and I am not willing to take a new job in the same state.

    By company policy I have to notify my manager before applying to any internal position. I think they’d understand if I wanted to go back to my home state, but my industry is almost nonexistent there and my company doesn’t have locations there. There a few positions at my level in places I’d prefer live in, but I feel like it would be obvious that I really just want to get away from here.

    I don’t want to burn bridges unnecessarily because I could see myself wanting to come back to this employer later in my career, when I’d be better suited for more of their possibilities in other locations. Should I just leave internal positions out of my job search for now? I’m starting to feel hopeless.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Would it really be that awful to say “I like the company but it turns out we’re not happy in Narnia?”

      1. Anonymous Need to Leave*

        Maybe, maybe not. It’s a sore spot for leadership right now because we traditionally have low turnover but we’ve had a few people leave in the past several months and location was the largest factor in the most recent one. I feel like “we’re not happy in X and we want to move back to Y” would be decently well received since he knows my family is there, but there aren’t any jobs for me in Y. My manager is proud of his area and hearing what amounts to “we’re not happy in X and I’m willing to move almost anywhere else that is not here” wouldn’t go over well.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          But maybe hearing “we’re not happy in X, but I like the company so much that I want to move to an internal position somewhere else” would go over better.

    2. Ron McDon*

      Can you make up a reason to move to the other location you’d prefer? Spouse has a great opportunity there, family have recently moved there etc, cost of living is much lower and we’d have a better quality of life? If it gets you the move you want and you’d only have to maintain the lie for a few months I would be ok with that!

  157. Not Desperate for the Job*

    I was called yesterday and given an offer.
    It’s 40K less than what I asked for and 15K less than what I make–not counting bonuses, but those aren’t reliable and I get them here too. I told her I’d really need more than that to make it worthwhile, and would only consider a lateral move depending on the full benefits package. As I went about reviewing that, the internal recruiter went back to “the powers that be.”
    Turns out I’d be getting longer hours, a longer commute, more regular stresses (end of quarter and end of year related crunches), less vacation time, and less sick time. (Going from 10 days plus the week between Xmas and new years vacation, 10 days sick time, to 12 days vacation, 2 personal days, and 5 sick days.)
    The second in command of the department emailed me to ask for a call today (in 2 hours) to see discuss my “concerns” around compensation, and because she’s “cautiously optimistic” we could “bridge the gap.” I have only a mild idea of how I’m going to approach it (I’m bringing 5 years experience doing what you’re looking for, have a background in IP, am confident I can stand against pushy sales people, am excited about the work and the industry, and am a pretty cool person to work with), but am not sure how or when I should bring up the other cons. Even if they do come up and say “Look, we can meet you at your current salary,” how do I then also say “If that’s the best you’re able to offer salary-wise, maybe we can bump up the vacation time to exceed what I’m getting now”?
    I’m not DESPERATE for this position. I want to be in this industry and it’s notoriously difficult to break into–I’ve spent 5 years trying! But my job is fine for now, potential future upheaval but nothing crazy right at this moment. I’m paid well. I’m micromanaged which I hate, and there is a fair amount of toxicity here. They do violate some labor laws, but I don’t have standing to change that. I’m also constantly pulled into an area of my job that I really hate (litigation) and this new job would have significantly less of that since it is a larger company and there are folks whose jobs are more closely entwined to that. It would be a switch from a small company to a huge company, which is something I’m considering as well. I love working with new people and learning from new people, and as I’ve moved to progressively larger departments, I’ve had better experiences.
    This is very much the situation Alison mentioned yesterday. The devil I know, versus the devil I don’t.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      ANYONE who gives you an offer 40k below what you’re asking for is out to lunch and not reasonable. I wouldn’t bother with these people. If someone was that far away from our target amount, we would have not wasted anyone’s time unless we were so intrigued by them that we would consider giving them at least within 10k of what they were asking. Just yuck, I get bad vibes just reading your comment, I’m sorry they’re jerking you around.

      1. Not Desperate for the Job*

        Yeah, I’m pretty bummed that I mentioned what I was looking for twice and it was never flagged as an issue. Probably on my list of things to ask. Along with, “Is there a particular reason the compensation for this position is under market for this experience level?”

        Maybe I’m crazy but I truly seriously do not consider bonuses to be part of the compensation package. A bonus is totally discretionary, you know? Sure “technically” the bonus they’re talking about would get me over my base and closer to what I’ve asked for (about halfway there), but unless they’re willing to contract to giving it to me (which I doubt) why would I consider that to be part of the compensation when it could change at any time?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. For understanding the background of bonus structure and YES they are discretionary. Most of the time, in most reasonable places, they are rarely actually taken away in my experience. However they are very much not-part-of-your-compensation. We even put that in our letters we send out with our bonus payments “Here’s your bonus! Remember, this isn’t a given! It’s not part of your salary base!” kind of thing.

          Bonuses are used by companies so they can have something easy to trim away, since rolling back wages isn’t unheard of but it’s pretty far up there and extreme for any business to do. So they use a bonus structure that they can point to “it’s never promised, not like your wages!”.

          You’re not crazy thinking that way. You’re smart and watching yourself and not going to be blindsided when the company has a really ugly quarter and can’t give out those bonuses if the economy takes a swerve.

          1. ACDC*

            I always get a little irked with recruiters that sell an annual bonus as a perk. Sorry Jane, I like things are guaranteed and would like a higher base salary.

          2. Not Desperate for the Job*

            The woman I spoke with was quite frank that she was calling me rather than my would-be manager to prevent any weirdness after negotiating hard, which I do appreciate. The bonus is annual and tied to individual performance, so it’s easy for them to neg on it a bit. She said they could almost certainly do more vacation days and she’d get a best and final to see how far they can come up. It sounds like they hadn’t finalized the comp package when they started interviewing, and they’re concerned with having me come in as relatively junior to the people I’d be working alongside (14+ and 20+ years of experience) and making significantly more than them.

            While I can respect that, those are also old white men and I have no problem making more money than old white men :D

            She indicated that she also took a pay cut to get to this job and that opportunities and growth have been such that she has met and surpassed where she was at in the process before. Not all anecdotes are representative, that’s for sure, but it’s good to hear that at least.

            I told her I’m willing to go down on the bonus to come up on base pay, she said they’re a pretty bonus-heavy and incentive-heavy company, that’s fair ’nuff, but she’s going to take it back to my would-be manager to see what they can do. We’ll see where we can get to play ball. If their best and final is close enough to what I’m hoping for, I’ll ask some more probing questions about flexing hours and such, because some flexibility to not have to work a fully tracked 40 hour workweek (understanding that I’ll pull over that most weeks) is very valuable to me as well.

            1. Nessun*

              I’m never a fan of the “but you can move up and make more; yay opportunities” talk. If you go in low, you can find that the raise is tied to what you made before. Yes, Karen, it IS a 30% raise…but it’s 30% of [unfortunately lowballed starting point], so don’t make it sound so awesome because it’s not.

              Opportunity to grow and move up is great, but sometimes its tied to the things that sucked to begin with.

            2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Nah, girl. She’s pulling out all those “start-ups are great, get in on the basement level, brooooooo. Growth, growth man!” bullsh*t.

              I get a feeling that they’re underpaying those men as well then. Since you say they lowballed you at 15k lower than what you’re making right now. W.T.F

              This reeks of SALES and their “you can earn SO MUCH MONEY, just SELL MORE! Commissions are fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! COMMISSIONS HAVE NO LIMITS!!!!!!!!” *vomit*

              I would be leery of this kind of place being okay with not just “giving” you more vacation time but letting you use it. I can give you 3 months PTO…you can’t actually take it but hey, it’s there just in case we feel like approving your time off, you know.

              Nope, nope, nope. Turning down off of nope-street onto run-girl-run boulevard.

              But maybe they’ll surprise you and come up enough but without actual wages, ick ick ick ick ick so many HR gimmicks and recruiting nonsense are sending me into shock.

              1. Not Desperate for the Job*

                Not sure if you’ll see this but I figure it’s worth a shot. XD

                Got a call from would-be manager today who offered $10K more and 5 more vacation days and says that’s the max they could possibly do, given internal restraints on their budget. Along with the 20% bonus plan possibility, which she said most people see and expect to see 85% of that every year. It would put me at $5K less per year on base compensation alone, which now that I’m no longer saving for a wedding, really isn’t a big deal. Even if I assume no bonus, the stability of a larger, public company would be appreciated over where I am right now. And a few other geographic bonuses to working where that company is (and not having to move.)

                Given my industry (legal) and the fact that this is in-house, it’s not uncommon for people to take a cut when moving in-house…but I’ve been in-house for five years so I have some work in it already. She did give me the contact info of her direct report who would be my coworker, so I’m going to see if I can call him and ask a bit more about her management style, how willing they are to allow PTO, see what else I can get out of him about the company culture and expectations.

                1. The Other Liz*

                  Promises about the future are meaningless unless they are in writing. If they don’t want to put bonuses and vacation increases in writing, it’s an empty promise. And this is an INTERNAL move? They want to lower your pay for an internal move? I too would run, run away, wait for a better offer to come along.

            3. The New Wanderer*

              She took a pay cut to work there and now is back to where she was before taking the job, or a little over? How many years in between? I get taking a pay cut for personal reasons, but that’s really not a selling point to anyone else. Ditto “our senior people wouldn’t be making as much as you.” Well, yeah, but that’s not your problem is it? That just says their pay structure isn’t great and you’d be subject to that yourself soon enough.

              I’m with the others that they’re going to be too far south even of your current salary (sans bonus) to bother with, especially if they don’t match your overall time off, because The Bonus is their main and only selling point. But I’m curious to see what they come back with!

      2. CatCat*

        Seriously. The offer is ridiculous. You don’t need a call for this, yeesh. You could email them or something, but I wouldn’t be wasting much more of my time on them.

        “The offer was $40k below what I said I was willing to work for and the total compensation package is significantly below my current pay and benefits. While I was initially excited about the opportunity, I was very disappointed to learn how far apart we are on compensation. I was clear about my salary expectations because I wanted to ensure we were in the same ballpark before either of us spent significant time on the hiring process. I cannot devote more time to this when we are so clearly not on the same page. Best of luck with your hiring process.”

        I SAID “GOOD DAY,” SIR. (Don’t need to say that, but I’d definitely be thinking it!)

    3. juliebulie*

      One time I asked for a certain amount that I thought might be a stretch, and because they were desperate (this was in 1997, a different kind of job market), they gave it to me.

      For the next 5.5 years (my entire time there) my boss grumped about how he thought it was too much.

      I just don’t see this working out for you considering that their first offer was so painfully low. Also – if you get the vacation time, I bet they give you a hard time about using it. “You’re the highest paid person in the company!”

      1. Lilith*

        My spouse was in sales & did get bonuses before retiring. IIRC, that money was taxed at a higher rate than regular income. My memory could be wrong or the tax laws could certainly have changed by now.

    4. pcake*

      You say the devil you know versus the devil you don’t, but you already know some things about the new company, and it doesn’t seem to me that any of it is very good. These folks sound stingy and they also sound pretty dysfunctional. After trying to lowball the hell out of you, I get the feeling they’ll be another very toxic job.

      Good luck to you, however it works out.

  158. Accidental Itenerate Teacher*

    I’m about to start on a short term (less than two months) contract for a big company for what is basically a specialized form of data entry. It is, by all accounts, an entry level position. In order to get things squared away I had to submit a drug test and a background check- no big deal.
    But the background check has become a ridiculous ordeal. Every background check I’ve undergone previously has been pretty simple- I fill out a quick sheet with my name, address, social, maybe a few previous jobs and that’s it.
    This one required every place I’ve lived in the last 10 years, the months I started and graduated from university, every job I’ve worked for the past 7 years along with a name, address, email, and phone number for a supervisor for each job. Even after submitting all that- which was fun since their system didnt like the fact I had been working multiple jobs at a time, I’ve gotten multiple emails demanding more and more paper work- W2s, paystubs, etc. Everytime I send something in I get another email asking for more paperwork, often including something I already sent. When I point out I’ve already sent it, I just get another email asking for something else.
    They called my current boss as part of their employment verification (not an issue, I’d given permission- she’s the one that put me forth for the contract) and had her rate me on several factors like honesty, etc. Which seems really wierd.
    It’s starting to feel excessive. Has anyone else encountered something like this?

    1. London Calling*

      For a TWO MONTH contract? I’d bin that. I temped for ten years and about the only check I ever had was ‘can she get here 9am Monday?’

      It’s data entry, not handing you a nuclear submarine to play with.

    3. Antilles*

      Everytime I send something in I get another email asking for more paperwork, often including something I already sent. When I point out I’ve already sent it, I just get another email asking for something else.
      This is not the way background checks work. Like, at all. There’s a standard procedure, a detailed form, a written list of information required. They don’t just randomly send emails asking for more information on a whim – they might need to follow up, but they know what they want so it’s closer to like 1-2 emails than repeated ones. And they certainly don’t ask for information they already have.
      Also the idea of providing paystubs for old jobs seems really odd; how many people really maintain copies of their old pay stubs? As for W-2’s, even the IRS only requires you to save tax documentation for 3 years under most circumstances; even though most people probably have a folder or spot on their hard drive with that stuff, it’s odd to ask for more than the government agency itself expects.

      1. Accidental Itenerate Teacher*

        Luckily I had copies of my old tax returns and was able to provide the info, but this morning I got an email that was phrased prettier but basically said they googled my previous job and couldnt figure it out (despite me providing my bosses name and phone number) and I needed to send them a w2 for it. When I pointed out that I had already sent it they asked for a w2 for a different job and when I pointed out I had already sent that, then they claimed to need a pay stub from my previous job to prove I’d worked there this year…
        Honestly if wasn’t taking this contract as a favor for my boss (who I adore) and for the learning experience (which will be useful) I would have walked away ages ago.

      1. Accidental Itenerate Teacher*

        Which is ridiculous as there is no government involvement and everything I’ve been told about the gig suggests I won’t be dealing with any info that couldnt be found by my grandma with 10 minutes of googling.

    5. PantaloonsOnFire*

      Ugh. This is the worst. While I just finished up the most terribly conducted background check of my life, yours still sounds worse. Makes me wonder if perhaps we both had background checks from the same reference checking company though…..

      I’ve regularly had extensive background checks for most of my jobs, both from private firms and the federal government. Some of them required a lot of information (complete employment history, all the places I’ve ever lived, and references they could contact who knew me from each address etc.), so at this point regurgitating all the info is not particularly burdensome. However, until now all of them have been able to reach the orgs or people I listed, and none of them required me to do their work for them. This most recent check was both poorly conducted and incompetent:

      a) Not reaching the correct HR rep, manager, reference on the first or second try isn’t a bit deal. It takes people a day or two (sometimes a little longer) to respond. However, this background check company apparently sends applicants panicky messages demanding W-2s and paystubs as soon as they’ve contacted someone twice with no reply. In addition to all the reasons above that you mention, this move was especially stupid because their email also didn’t explain that they were still waiting on my references/past employers to respond. So when I called them concerned because I don’t have pay and tax documents from a job I did 5-7 years ago, they told me it wasn’t important anymore because my old company had contacted them. So not only had they bothered me for unnecessary documents far too early in the process, they didn’t bother to tell me to wave off when they got the info they needed from other sources.

      b) They contacted me a second time demanding pay/tax forms because they couldn’t reach the (now non-existent) company that I worked at 4 years ago. They could have taken 30 seconds of Googling to learn that the company now has a different name. Instead I had to write to them to point this out and show them where the New Company Name’s HR phone number was. WHY DO YOU NEED ME TO DO YOUR WORK FOR YOU? THIS IS LITERALLY YOUR JOB!

      c) Didn’t even bother to inform me when the background check was completed.

  159. Pink Glitter*

    We have one large kitchen and four kitchenettes on our floor and yet this girl insists on washing her dishes in the bathroom sink. WHY?

    1. zora*

      GROOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! ugh that is the weirdest thing I have ever heard, and I have my own weird kitchen things in my office. Sorry, I have no explanation for you. That is just bizarre.

      1. Jamie*

        If that’s the weirdest thing you’ve ever heard you need to do a search here and find the letter from the person who wrote in about their boss emptying cups of his urine in the office kitchen sink.

            1. Enough*

              Hope everything is good with you. A couple of years ago I was on a different site and there was a Hello Kitty. Alas it was not you.

        3. Close Bracket*

          lol, first thing that came to mind was, “Bc the boss dumps his urine in the kitchen sink.”

      2. WellRed*

        We don’t have a kitchen sink, I guess you’d be horrified by how gross we are.

        Seriously, urine in the sink, drano as sink cleaner, poop in the potted plant and spunk on the bathroom walls. New here?

        1. zora*

          It’s the weirdness of doing it in the bathroom when there is a kitchen available. I don’t get that.

          And yeah, you’re right, there are much weirder examples from this site, I should have just said “A very weird thing”

          1. Bear Shark*

            It’s the weirdness of doing it in the bathroom when there is a kitchen available.
            Oh gosh, for a second I thought you were talking about the spunk in the bathroom letter.

      1. CrookedLily*

        Bingo. I am disabled, limited arm function and reach, and just can’t reach the kitchen sink comfortably. So yes, I wash my occasional container or utensil in the bathroom sink.

        1. sigh*

          I use the bathroom sink to rinse the occasional utensil and fill up my water bottle because my knee and stairs do not get along, the kitchen is upstairs, and we are not allowed to use the elevator. Management said if we truly can’t use the stairs then we should be asking coworkers for help. I’m not asking any of my coworkers to wash my dishes for me! I’d rather do it in the bathroom.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are these her dishes she brings with her and stores in her office/cube?

      If it’s not shared dinning ware, that’s a weird icky quirk but I mean she’s probably not laying them out to dry on the counter, right? She’s just using the sink itself? So really, she’s using just the water facet and the water itself is not toilet water, people get drinking water out of those facets in plenty of locations. you run your tooth brush under it beforeyou put that in your mouth, etc.

    5. Librettist*

      I used to work with a woman who did that because the bathroom sink water actually got hot. You had to run the kitchen sink for like 3 years for it to even get warm. I guess the hot water was really important to her, enough to override the weirdness/grossness of bringing her dishes into a bathroom?

  160. zora*

    Moving the job search into high gear now (another week I think I’ll start a post about “Acquisitions Gone Wrong”) and looking for some ideas.

    I’m really good at operations, logistics tasks and am looking for higher level admin-type positions, but more like handling internal stuff, and less like receptionist/Administrative Assistant titles. But those things are hard to search for because the keywords show up in basically every job posting ever!

    Any suggestions for job titles or keywords to search that will help me find what I’m looking for?

    I think compounding this is that i’m in the bay area and I’d like to look at tech companies, but they all make up different titles/department names for this type of stuff, too! Any ideas?

  161. Queenie*

    Guys its been a crazy last couple of weeks! I just got back yesterday from emergency medical leave, my workplace, who knows about my condition and the triggers, neglected to inform me they were painting out main area where my desk is in our open office plan. MAJOR asthma attack, hospital, meds, the whole nine yards and a week off work. And their response was “oops, well we did buy low odour paint, guess you’re really sensitive.” 2 years without an incident and I’ve had 2 major asthma attacks at work in 3 weeks. Someone get me the heck outta here! In other good news, have some irons in the fire, crossing my fingers! But does anyone have any advice as to what I can do at my current workplace to prevent this from happening again? I am not in the US sadly so suing isnt an option. Also, any advice on making sure my next workplace isnt a crap show would be wonderful…. thank you!!!!

  162. Librettist*

    Anyone here familiar with LibreOffice? I just switched to using it on my personal laptop because my old version of Word stopped working and Google was no help to fix it. Since I am currently unemployed, I am reluctant to put any money into this. But I need to edit my resume! Anyone have tips on formatting or what file type to use when uploading? I do have access to word if I go to a family member’s house, which is less convenient, but I can definitely do that if needed.

    Anyone have thoughts or tips?

    Thanks for your help!

        1. Sorrischian*

          I think they’re based on the same core code, but LibreOffice actually tends to be more reliable and secure.

    2. tamarack & fireweed*

      I *always* export to PDF for uploading documents. Open the ones produced by open source tools in Acrobat, so that there are no surprises about fonts etc.

      I’ve last used Libre Office a good while ago, and while it works fine, it used to be (at least) rather clunky. For updating your CV you’ll probably get to your goal quicker using Google Docs, tbh, which is perfectly adequate for simple documents like CVs and cover letters.

      Good luck!

    3. sacados*

      I’ve used it at my last company where they only gave Office licenses for certain roles and everyone else used Libre.
      In my experience, there often can be issues where the formatting goes wonky if opening a Word doc in Libre, or vice versa. Tho I think if I remember the Libre format -> word was less tricky than the other way around.
      But if you absolutely want to preserve the formatting for something visually important like your resume, the best bet is probably to arrange it how you want in Libre and then export to PDF when sharing with employers.

    4. juliebulie*

      I haven’t used libreoffice in a while so I don’t remember exactly what the options are, but I would go with .doc (or .docx) if it’s available. Otherwise, .rtf. Or make a pdf if you can.

    5. 653-CXK*

      I used OpenOffice and LibreOffice equally until the former crashed something awful last summer; then I switched to LibreOffice for good.

    6. Grammar Police*

      I’m sure you know this…..but the library might be where you can use the programs familiar to you.

  163. anonthistime*

    TL;DR: Good lord, I have a phone interview for a tenure-track position. Help!

    I’m a little less than two years post PhD defense and am doing adjunct teaching and post-doctoral research on a “casual part-time temp” contract basis. Unlike others in my situation I am geographically bound to where I am as my partner and I live here. That is, my main target for getting a career off the ground is a specific university. There is one more realistic/achievable pathway, via grant-funded positions off the tenure track (which in the long run would be either research faculty or staff). But occasionally regular tenure-track positions come up that fit my background, so I apply. For two of them, actually, though because of current budget woes (and the differences in how they are funded) there is serious doubt about one of the position actually ever being filled.

    The other one, though… is on paper *literally* smack-bang for my specialization, and partially funded out of a project I (as a PhD student) helped in a minor way to write the grant application for and am now being paid from, ie, I’m familiar with not only the department, the students, but also the specific expectations from the hire in the project. BUT: My record is still very light-weight, and it’s even light-weight for a post-doc 2 years past PhD. (One reason is that I spent most of last year applying for permanent residency on grounds of marriage and was not even employable during this period). But I applied. And, against my expectation am invited for a phone interview later this month. I *am* qualified, but in this field, qualified people are not a rarity.

    Complicating factors are:
    – One of the other applicants is, though in years younger than me, one of the existing (non-TT) faculty on the project. We actually share a PhD (co)advisor. They are 5 years ahead of me and have an excellent track record in research and student advising. I’d hire them over me, no question. We respect each other and want to keep working together.
    – The project also has a more junior research position, but there was some delay in hiring. I’m likely to be in the running there. The hiring committees overlap.
    – Place is actually a factor. It’s a location that is very much “love it or hate it”. I know that retention has been a problem, historically, but people who like it here tend to be REALLY committed to this place.

    I started out as “no way I’m going to get this”, but my mindset has rapidly shifted to “give it your best shot, and act as if you’re believing you can get this job”. I have talked with another professor not related to this department about what to expect in faculty interviews. But I could do with any input!

  164. Anti-Gossip*

    Are HR teams typically pretty gossipy? I’ve been working in HR for the past few years (most of which has been by myself) but I recently got a new job and I can’t handle the gossip! Because HR is more “in the know” about what’s happening in the office, I feel like everything we’re read in on evolves into negative, mean-spirited gossip. Anyone have any experience with this? Is this just how HR is?

    1. !*

      Yes, this is the reason why I can’t stand my HR department, even the head of the department gossips to my cubicle neighbor when she should be setting the example not to gossip. I keep my business (not that there is much of it) squarely to myself. I do want to get some retirement information for planning purposes, but I’m sure that will start gossip, and actually I’d like to scare them a little so I will be asking.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sigh. Sadly yeah. Just like managers tend to do the same thing among each other. I have had to put a stop to that in my case. I have finally earned the respect and trust of everyone who knows I’m going to keep their sh*t to myself.

      I guess the other HR person before me was a total gossip hound. And we don’t have a “department”, it’s a one person thing. I am so unimpressed and annoyed just thinking about it.

      1. Anti-Gossip*

        I’m really struggling with it! I’m a firm believer that you never know what’s going on in someone else’s life… and also that if you’re gossiping about other people on the regular, you’re probably gossiping about me too. I’m not sure what to do! I want to make good relationships, but how do I do that if I don’t want to contribute to 99% of their conversations?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Honestly, it’s one of the multiple reasons I couldn’t work with a “team” and am suited for the small-scale life. Same goes with my accounting, I have incredibly huge issues with how poorly some accounting departments are ran out there.

          People who are gossip like that tend to be miserable and untrustworthy, they should not be deciding what they can blab about to one another. You’re right not to trust that they’re not doing it behind your back. Even if you’re “buddies” with them, the second they decide you’ve wronged them, they’ll spill the beans.

          I see this all the time in just toxic friendships. Suddenly it’s over and they’re texting your partner about the stuff they have on you and other catty nonsense. Yuck.

          HR should hold themselves up to higher standards then they hold any other employee too, imo.

          Just be the boring one, steer conversations away from “Joey and Chandler got written up, did you see what they did?!” to “Hm. Yeah. So you went hiking last weekend, where was that again? Is it easy to get to?”

          You may not be able to be friends with them in the end but really, they are not the people you want as friends in the end. You just want to be warm and kind whenever you speak about things not about others and their hardships or messups etc.

    4. Not Me*

      Do you mean gossipy among the HR team? Or HR sharing gossip outside their team?

      I’ll say my team definitely discusses the gossip we hear and when dealing with an issue it’s not uncommon for my peers to tell me what has happened in the past before I joined the company. Gossiping outside of our team though, I would never. I feel weird even telling my boyfriend and best friend things that happen at work and they don’t know any of the people and never will.

      1. Not Me*

        I should be clear, we aren’t sharing it within our team as gossip. More in a “getta load of what SoNSo said this time. She’ll never learn, will she.” Or if it’s something that correlates to an investigation or situation we’re working on.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          The only time you should be talking to each other about something is when it directly involves that person, so if there’s an ongoing investigation, bringing someone up to speed and sharing history is fine.

          But just circling the wagons with a “Get a load out of this new thing that Travis did, it’s always something with this guy, right!?” is not good. That’s making someone, a human who should be able to trust you to respect them as people, who don’t get a chance to choose what you know about them or not, the butt of a joke. It may be pretty lowkey in ways, which is still not okay. You shouldn’t laugh at people like that, it should be pretty a somber when it comes to dealing with people and their issues. There are plenty of things to laugh about and chat about outside of the humans outside of your department.

          1. Buyernonymous*

            TMBL, I think I love you. Your second paragraph is so, so right. Thank you for putting the words to my vague-type-feelings about the ickiness of it!

          2. Not Me*

            Our job is to know and handle those kinds of things though. So if I say “getta load of this…” my peer can respond “yeah, she’s done that before, someone needs to talk to her about that” and we handle it. That’s what I meant by within my team we discuss these things, not in a gossipy way.

            If you expect everyone in HR to treat the situations we deal with in a somber way all the time…you’re going to have a ridiculously high turnover rate in your HR department. Sometimes you have to laugh a little in a safe place or you’ll lose your mind dealing with some of the things we (me and my team) deal with.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              It’s HR. It’s exhausting. It’s literally something I hate at times. I get that.

              However it’s like any other high-stress job, you still have to be serious about it and treat it with the respect that it deserves along with the others involved.

              Social work is hard. Do you think that they should gather around and talk about their clients together?

              Healthcare had to bring in privacy laws because of humans who think it’s okay to share other people’s private information!

              Funeral homes are full of somber interactions all day long. Do you think they should laugh about their mourning clients? Or do you think they should reroute and talk about things that are not related to their difficult jobs and continue to respect the people they’re working for? In the end HR work is all about taking care of the real cruddy muddy nonsense that comes around and it’s something that yeah, some people aren’t cut out to do. Just like every other walk of unhappy things in life. If you burn out, you should leave before you become so callous towards humans.

              1. Not Me*

                Um, yeah. I think it’s totally reasonable (and I don’t think anyone would be surprised) at the gallows humor you’d hear from people in high stress jobs used to deal with the stress. It happens with cops, EMS, doctors, nurses, the list goes on and on. I would have zero problem with funeral directors finding humor in things that happen at work. They are human.

                Being able to decompress with your team so you don’t get burned out and you still preserve your professionalism with everyone else is 100% ok. Suggesting people in HR need to not crack a smile for a second while on the job is absolutely ridiculous.

                When my boss refers to a bathroom situation as “Poop Gate 2018”, I’m not going to tell her to “be respectful! This isn’t funny!”. If someone complains that their cube-mate is using their stapler too loudly, I’m not going to sit them both down and say “This isn’t funny. We need to be adults. Let’s have a mature conversation about this”, I’m going to laugh with a co-worker about how ridiculous that is before I handle it with respect and professionalism.

    5. Ugh*

      Ugh, someone in my HR department was on the same train as me going home one day and overheard me talking to coworker A about coworker B, and then went and told B the next day that I had been talking about her. I don’t trust anyone in our HR.

  165. Grumpy Law, LP*

    Thought of the day today: How on earth does one get from working as an attorney (litigation, specifically) to some other type of career? Seems absolutely impossible unless you have some unusual technical skill or experience.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I feel like this has come up before here, a person who wanted to get out of litigation was talking about trying to become internal counseling instead? Is that possibly a way you could go? It would depend on your specialty though I’d assume but not a lawyer of course.

      I know so many people who have law degrees who can’t get lawyer jobs so they have random careers. So really, sometimes places just want you to have A Degree and you could switch paths that way. Only rub there is it tends to mean starting at the bottle of whatever industry you get into and working yourself up again. Which may or may not be doable depending your salary requirements.

      1. Grumpy Law, LP*

        Yeah, those salary requirements are tough since the cost of living is super high here and I already had a lot of catching up to do, financially, since I had, you know, the law school debt.

        That may well be the toughest complicating factor now that you mention it.

    2. MaxiesMommy*

      Hospital in-house counsel? They get sued a lot and you can coordinate/be the point man with outside counsel. You can also review contracts, liaise with HR, etc. Who are your clients that you like?

      1. Grumpy Law, LP*

        All my clients are individuals, which has some advantages and disadvantages. A lot of them work in the same general field but the obvious roles in that industry that (I think) I’m qualified for are defense/adjuster jobs (ie, fighting workers’ comp and civil claims) that, for better or worse, I just don’t want to do. I also haven’t really done anything relating to contracts or HR stuff, so although I think I’d enjoy certain generalist in-house work more, I don’t think I’ve seen anything like that that I meet the requirements for.

        Still, I think I just need a pretty drastic change of pace more than a slight tweak. I’m sort of averse to strictly-desk work and feel like I enjoy mathy things a lot more than writing. Law stuff just seems to be a poor fit. No shame in it but I guess I just need to vent?

        Who knows lol

    3. irene adler*

      You might look into regulatory affairs for biotech companies. They need a legal background (i.e. attorney).

    4. Grumpy Law, LP*

      You know, there may be in house jobs that I’d like, but in general my inclination is to escape the law generally. I’m not even terribly sure that I’d be qualified to go in-house in any event, mostly because I’ve only done plaintiff’s/claimant’s side personal injury and workers comp (~4 yrs) and haven’t ever really dealt with any commercial, regulatory, or transactional matters.

      I guess the main beef is that litigation work seems to be the only thing I’m decently qualified to do, and I don’t much want to do it. =/

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Workers Comp lawyering *sobs* I don’t blame you at all, personal injury is soul sucking work, I can only imagine of course but just dealing with them on the non-lawyer side gives me stress.

        There are always options though! I would still possibly sniff around and talk to in house attorney’s to see their backgrounds first before writing it off, it may surprise you.

        I know MD’s who didn’t want to be doctors who have found places to use their degrees! It’s a thing. You are not stuck.

        1. Grumpy Law, LP*

          Incidentally, my clients aren’t bad, but dealing with lawyers and insurance adjusters constantly, writing all the time, and fretting about missing a deadline on one of 9000 things just wears you down.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Oh, it’s the insurance people specifically that make my skin crawl. So I can understand completely.

            A loved one was once in a bad wreck in a company vehicle and broke their back. That was…yeah. Insurance people. All the lawyers were great.

            1. Grumpy Law, LP*

              Incidentally, sometimes I’ve summarized my job as dealing with people’s insurance beefs for them. Pretty apt I think.

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Depends on the other type of career you’re looking at, just like transitioning from any career to a new one. Say you want to start consulting, where you would advise companies on how to navigate workers comp issues and lessen their exposure. You’ll be fine with the knowledge set for your consulting practice, but you’ll have a learning curve for running your own business. But if you want to get into some completely new line of work? You’ll have to meet the educational requirements and get the credentials needed for someone to hire you.

      Bottom line, the myth of the “flexible J.D.” is strong, unfortunately. (A friend of mine put it as, “the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people that a $200,000 credential that doesn’t even cross state lines is ‘flexible.'”) You may very well have to go back to school and start at square one.

  166. Teresa*

    How do I deal with a mean and difficult boss? I answer to two bosses, one of them is perfectly pleasant and nice. The other one will often request a million things without saying which one should be a priority and then gets mad when I don’t guess which one he thought was more important. He will also always ask for help with technology but then get angry when I don’t immediately know how to do something and won’t let me look it up because I “should just know” because I’m young.

    1. Jamie*

      Ahhh…anger at not having all tech answers in your head. I’m familiar.

      Once I was marinating in stress because email was down and I was fighting with Exchange to get things back up and the owner of my company came into my office with an emergency.

      He was leaving on a trip and his Candy Crush on his phone and on his iPad were at different levels and he needed me to sync them. The berating I got for being IT and not knowing this off the top of my head would have been funny if it wasn’t so sad. I may not have known that, but at least I knew what the word ’emergency’ meant.

      When dealing with people who have unrealistic expectations or who expect you to be a mind reader all you can do is breathe, remain as stoic as possible, and remind yourself their behavior says nothing about you and everything about them.

      Can you speak with your reasonable boss about advice on how to best deal with the other one?

    2. LizB*

      No advice, but all my sympathy. I’ve discovered that people who aren’t good with technology (both young and old) really don’t understand that being “good with technology” really means being good at googling things to do with technology. There’s too much information on this topic to keep in our own brains, so we keep it in a giant brain called The Interwebs and go digging around in there for everything we need to know.

    3. Buyernonymous*

      My suggestion for the bad boss would be to prioritize his requests in whatever way you think is correct, send him an email stating: “BB, I plan to work on your requests as follows. [insert list]. Thanks, Teresa”

      That way you’re letting him know what your plan is, and if he wants it in a different order, he can let you know. Now that you’ve told him what the order is, the onus is on him for any change.

      Alternately, you can just ask him at the time of the requests: “BB, I’m working on X, Y, and Z. How would you like me to prioritize A, B, and C with the current tasks?”

  167. EJane*

    The mental health saga continues.

    Two parts to this question:
    1. Hierarchy at work: Boss, then Grandboss and Mrs. Grandboss. My boss is great, grandboss is passive but well-meaning, and Mrs. Grandboss is a true piece of work. I have cPTSD and a service dog, and she is SPECTACULARLY unaware of any and all legislation or common-sense policies surrounding disabled employees.
    I have a folder on my phone with screenshots of the very illegal messages she’s sent me (in writing!) in case a lawyer ever needs to enter the picture.
    She keeps coming up with more; last Friday, she messaged me (and ONLY me) about the (not yet announced) tardy policy and how I would be expected to provide x amount of days’ notice prior to taking PTO (x was the wrong number) (also I helped WRITE the damn policy). All of my “whoops shit I have to take tomorrow off” moments (which I am fully to blame for) have been related to medical appointments or continued care. I checked with a coworker who does the same thing, but for recreational stuff or because he feels like it, and she hadn’t breathed a word to him.
    [yes, this office is very messed up]

    I showed this to my Boss, saying “I don’t know how to respond to this, you and I have already talked about this problem, and also her information is incorrect?”
    Boss went to Mrs. Grandboss and basically said “You’re targeting EJane, why?” (This is one of many similar instances.) She let loose with a deluge of venting that, according to Boss, was 95% not about me and 5% something that could be constructive criticism.
    Boss’s solution to this is to sit us down in a meeting together and invite a heart-to-heart.
    My response was “I’ll listen to any constructive criticism she has to offer, but I would like the meeting recorded, and I would like you and Jack [the only non-management staff member who isn’t afraid of her, and also the only person with HR experience or credentials] present.”

    I really don’t want to be in this meeting at all. I’ve been in meetings with her before, and tend to come out of them a. having a panic attack or b. on Ativan.
    But she is Mrs. Grandboss, and no one has authority over her to call her out on this bullshit.

    Thoughts? Advice for getting through this meeting? Feedback on external resources, if there are any?

    2. I’m obviously in the market for a new job–but my work history looks not-great. I worked as an executive coordinator for a year at a startup, and then was laid off with a quarter of the company. I spent the next two years temping high-level admin positions, took a month off last October for health reasons, and have been at the current Mess since last November.

    I’ve kept my head down and gotten through bad spells, here, but this is taking its toll. I would really, really like to stay for another year and change, so I have something significant, but I don’t think I can explain leaving a job after less than a year by saying “I’m leaving because the workplace is toxic and hostile, even though I love the work I do”, as I’d imagine it raises a question of “well, will she decide we’re toxic and hostile and take off before the year is out? She hasn’t stuck around anywhere else”.

    Basically, any general wisdom, experience, or advice to help me find a clear path through this muck would be much appreciated.

    (the kicker is that Mrs. Grandboss isn’t actually my supervisor; I had to explain to her how I do my job. she and I have no real reason to interact 90% of the time; am I insane to consider gritting my teeth and getting through this until I have something substantial on my resume?)

    1. EJane*

      (also relevant: I’m applying to online grad school programs (MSW), since I’m finally healthy enough to commit to one. So I do know where I want to be, and it’s not here.)

    2. new kid*

      Given that last line especially, it seems like your direct boss really needs to step up and essentially say “EJane is my employee and I’ll handle this” and then run interference for you. It sounds like you maybe have a decent relationship with direct boss, is that a possibility?

      1. valentine*

        run interference for you
        Yes. You don’t make the target sit down with the aggressor, especially when the latter has this much more power.

        1. EJane*

          I actually have a really, really good relationship with my direct boss. But he’s young, barely 30, and this is a family-run company that’s been plagued by really shit management and toxic communication. The org chart is a MESS; I’m technically higher than our technicians, and I control their schedules, but there’s a big mismatch between responsibility and authority, in terms of what management has given me.

          The only reason I’m still here is because I’ve seen an enormous improvement in the last several months, and because my direct boss has encouraged honesty, solicited my advice, and been candid with me about the progress he’s making in certain areas that I’m concerned about (i.e. HR stuff) and the challenges he’s facing. Also, literally EVERYONE hates Mrs. Grandboss. Our customers don’t like dealing with her, she has no idea how the vast majority of the business functions… sigh.

          Thank you for affirming that I get to say “no, I won’t be a target”.

    3. WellRed*

      Does Mrs. GB actually work for the company? I think you should turn down the offer of mediation, but if you do it, you are wise to have it recorded and have another person present. I don’t think your job history is horrible. unless there’s some compelling reason to remain at this place, start looking around. You’ll hit the one-year mark soon enough.

    4. Colette*

      Is there a reason you have to listen to what she says? Can you just … ignore messages from her? What kind of power does she have to make your life miserable?

      What if you only treated a policy as “real” if it came from your manager, or was sent to the entire company? Is htat something you can do?

      1. EJane*

        Ostensibly, I could ignore her… in terms of her power to make my life miserable, aside from verbal abuse, the only thing she really controls is pay raises.

  168. AnonPi*

    So I found out I am officially graduated almost a month after they awarded my degree, because the graduate office sucks. so. hard. lol It took my thesis adviser contacting the graduate director to find out. *facepalm*

    Sad irony is my former middle manager was going to use me getting it to push for a promotion. Then manager quit two weeks later. Really the only reason it mattered to me was that it’d been a better title and pay raise – they were going to dump extra work on me either way. So I decided what the hell, and applied for the manager job. It’s a long shot since I have no prior management experience, but I figured I have nothing to lose (and I now have a grad degree which they want and is a big deal here).

    I’m not happy in my current role, and there’s few job openings around here to apply for (and can’t afford to move for new work either). I don’t know that I’d like this new position any better if by some miracle I got it (it’s a grateful-less job), but I figured if I can stick it out for a few years, I’d get experience to add to my resume, and make enough money to save up and move. It may end up being a mistake even applying (I’m sure my difficult grandboss will say something to me about it even if I don’t become a finalist). So I’m rather nervous doing it now and dreading what will be said.

  169. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    I finally had a job interview last week, and I thought it went well. I felt like I could do the job, they gave me realistic expectations of what they need and what the work environment will be like, and I think I presented myself well. No particularly difficult questions, I answered everything well and didn’t fumble anything. It felt like either I basically had the job and they were doing a psyscho-check interview, or they already selected someone else and I was an additional candidate that they were required to interview by law as a public institution. They said they’d get back to me by the end of this week, and with it approaching the end of this week nerves are high! Just wanted to get it out of my system, but commiseration/thoughts are welcome.

    1. Layoff Laments*

      Same here, so we can commiserate together! Had an interview that went pretty well, said I’d hear by the end of this week and getting nervous about it. I didn’t end up hearing anything by the end of the business day on Friday, so trying to leave it be (which is what I usually try to do, but when you’re a final candidate, it’s hard to keep the brain quiet!).

      What I like about your comment is how you walked away from this interview feeling pretty good. That’s no small feat! Hoping you give yourself credit for that, no matter what happens. Good luck!

  170. N-SoCal*

    Yesterday a coworker’s parent passed away. It was one of those really long illnesses and I’m glad for coworker and family that they finally have some peace, etc. This means the community card is passed around. I have no issue with it, save same coworkers not doing the same when my own parent had passed a couple of years ago.

    So I’m sitting here disliking my feelings of being “left out” as it seems off base. Dumb feelings.

    1. valentine*

      Be kind to yourself and your perfectly reasonable feelings. It’s not mean to want comfort you see someone else receive. It doesn’t take anything away from your newly grieving coworker and your grief is still quite fresh. I do wonder if you feel overlooked or unappreciated in general or in some other way.

    2. rageismycaffeine*

      when my grandmother died, it got no acknowledgement at work. Three weeks later, another coworker’s beloved dog died, and a card went around for her.

      I was so angry, but my boss owned that it was actually his fault – it’s usually the supervisor who starts circulating a card for birthdays, sympathy, get well, etc., and he’d totally dropped the ball on it.

      Didn’t make me feel much better, to be honest, but I stopped resenting all my coworkers and just told my boss how shitty it made me feel. Your feelings are completely valid.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Some people are really short sighted on this kind of thing.

      Are they closer to the person this time? It’s still unkind and shouldn’t happen but I realized a long time ago that some people are “in” and some people aren’t. Which is why as the person who does this kind of thing now, I’m militant about everyone being treated equally to avoid your situation =(

      1. N-SoCal*

        There are quite of few things that can play into it, such as working in different offices and split supervisors. I’m pretty sure the latter has a lot to do with it as currently I do not share the same primary supervisor (even though she is here face to face often, mine is in a completely different location.).

        Dumb feelings include the slight resentment I have for said split supervisor as she has been very vocal about not being in charge of me and has made efforts to minimize my interactions with her core team. (Or in more entertaining words, she is a back stabbing wench.). Again, dumb feelings surfaced. Ha, reminds me of a minion of split supe who was offended I didn’t directly tell her of my parent’s passing. ….because I was devastated and it was challenging to talk about?

        /rambling

        We have weird dysfunction where I work. I put a lot of internal boundaries up lately as to not be impacted by favoritism/dysfunction/etc.

    4. :(*

      I’m sorry about your parent :(

      We had multiple people out for various illnesses last year / this year and all of them got something, a card and some kind of gift, except one. She was out multiple times for surgery and then her mom died. She did get a sympathy card for the last one.

      It completely comes down to the manager in this case, but coworkers can bring it up too – “Hey, are we going to do a card for C?” And that can prompt the manager to organize a card / gift.

      I’m sorry your loss wasn’t acknowledged at work.

  171. new greenie*

    I’m the type of person who likes to ask questions to clarify issues before starting on an assignment and enjoy following up with my supervisor to ensure that I’m doing things correctly. Such as asking “so would you want me to organize this by X?” or “should I follow the previous report formatting or would it be better to incorporate Y?”

    However, I’m struggling with how I can continue to do so without being too annoying? I get anxiety about messing up something on the job and then getting reprimanded for it. I have a short work history where one manager liked my follow-up style while the other one absolutely loathed it. When I ask questions or follow up, I try to think things through as much as I can and attempt to give my own opinions in the process – but I feel the most at ease when my boss gives me the OK or tells me why this wouldn’t work. Any tips? Should I just do what I can and hope for the best?

    1. new kid*

      I think it would be totally okay to check with a new manager up front! “I typically like to review my design decisions before starting on a project to make sure I haven’t missed anything – is that the type of thing I could run by you or [other senior coworker]? Would you prefer an email or a quick call to review that type of information?” I think most (non crazy) managers would be totally open to that and then since you’ve opened the dialogue from the beginning, it gives them an easier avenue to also redirect down the line if something isn’t working.

    2. Buyernonymous*

      I may be reading this wrong, but here’s my response from how I read it:

      I think that on large projects your method is fine (getting information at the beginning, and then following up partway through to ensure you’re getting it done correctly). On smaller things, though, I can see asking “should I do it like X”, being told yes, and then a few days later following up to say “I’ve been doing it like X, is that fine?” would be pretty frustrating. But I think it’s largely dependent on the work you’re doing also, and how micromanage-y your manager is.

  172. carrie heffernan*

    just came here to bitch about people hijacking meetings and taking time away from anyone else’s topics.

    3. Adlib*

      Related: when people blow by the stop time of meetings without checking to see if it’s cool with everyone in attendance. It’s one thing if they stop to check and people can say whether or not they can continue or have to leave. I’m definitely going to interject if it happens again. Ridiculousness.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        What really helps in my place is that conference rooms are often booked since we don’t have many, which means people are typically waiting outside for the next scheduled meeting. It’s kind of hard to run over when people are staring at you through the glass pane.

  173. ainnnymouse*

    My last job was pretty terrible the place was very understaffed. Because it was understaffed I was usually working alone and not getting much work done. I would get in trouble from my coworkers, supervisors and the customers. I was never really trained I just got thrown in that part of the store. In the area it was the worst store of that chain and underperforming. I had 4 supervisors who all gave me different instructions and would get mad when I would not follow theirs. And a 5th* supervisor who was really just a bossy brown nose coworker who had to “oversee” what the other workers were doing so she could point out in an a very loud way what you were doing wrong. Once this person stayed 2 hours overtime to make sure a new worker knew how to do something. They were not told/asked to do this they did this on their own accord. To make sure they knew how to do the job properly. The brown nose coworker was the only person they bothered training of all the new hires. Which this person loved to brag about to anybody and everybody. And was too good for the grunt work. They left it all for me. This person rose to the top.
    I was just feeling overworked and under appreciated and just quit one day out of pure frustration. And they pretty much lose people before 3 months because you are on probation for it and none of the employee perks kick in until then.

    How to I say interviews in a more tactful way why I left that job?

    1. irene adler*

      Sounds like this was an extremely ‘poor fit’ for you (or for anyone human).

      Might also reframe the response to “Why did you leave your last job?” into more of a “‘why I’m very interested in the position we’re discussing”.
      “The last job turned out to be an extremely poor fit for me. The LLama groomer’s position you advertised is looking for skills X and Y, where I excel, but never had much opportunity to use these skills at prior position. I’m looking forward to a position where I can put these skills to good use.”

    2. Psyche*

      How long were you there? If it was only three months you can leave it off your resume and not talk about it at all. A short stint in retail isn’t that uncommon.

        1. Psyche*

          Are you going to be applying for another retail job? If not, you can simply say that retail was a bad fit for you. If you are going to apply for another retail job you could probably cite the confusion from having so many different supervisors with different expectations.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Most places already know that retail is a grinding awful industry, so if you say it was a bad fit or that you didn’t have work-life balance [aka the overworking part], that should be just fine.

      In reality this is your only job history and it’s short, you’re going to struggle regardless. I was just thinking this afternoon about how hard it was to get a job after just a little experience [I had 14 months in my very first job before I quit for about the same reasons you did but I was coming out the other side with accounting skills at least, ones I taught myself for the most part in reality.]

      So just keep it lowkey with the fit issue and good luck!

  174. Imposter Syndrome*

    Buckle up, folks! It’s been a wild summer.

    Back in May, I started having a tough time at work (and in life). I was experiencing dizziness, extreme fatigue, trouble walking, hand tremors, nausea/vomiting, and a bunch of other random things. I work mostly from home and am largely isolated from my colleagues, so I never told anyone or took any time off. I just flexed my time and powered through as well as I could. I had been to the doctor four times and was summarily dismissed and then referred to the neurologist for an appointment in October. I started making mistakes, missing deadlines, and becoming unresponsive to communication (mostly I just forgot about things and/or assumed I had replied already). Eventually, I was fired the Friday before Memorial Day in a 48 second phone call and then hung up on when I tried to ask a question.

    The next week, I ended up in the emergency room and was sent to a larger hospital with a grapefruit sized brain tumor. I ended up with a stay of execution by way of sick leave and took the entire month of June off. They also gave me the month of July to close out all of my projects before leaving.

    At the end of July, I was offered my job back and was told that they felt it was “the right thing to do.” Ok, fine. I went back, which was stupid, but I like having a paycheck and I wasn’t really in a good place to job hunt mentally, physically, or emotionally. I did not hear one word from my direct supervisor from May until mid-August (the COO/my mentor was the one who communicated with me).

    Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago when I received a call from a non-profit organization I’ve been working with for the last couple of years. They had an open position and were interested in me. After a couple of conversations, I was offered the job on Tuesday. It’s a massive step up in title, responsibility, and salary. I’m very excited for the opportunity, but after everything that has happened this summer, I’ve lost a lot of confidence in myself as a person and an employee. Any advice on setting aside all that has happened and moving forward with positivity and confidence?

    1. Jamie*

      As someone with my own confidence issues atm I get it…but jump. Focus on the fact that this new org values your talent and sought you out. Staying in a place because it’s better than nothing won’t help you build your confidence back, but a new team of people who clearly have confidence in you will.

      When you can’t rely on your own opinion of yourself, sometimes it helps try to see yourself through the eyes of others. In this case, they eyes of the people who want to work with you.

      I am in absolute awe of your strength in powering through what you have. I cannot imagine dealing with a brain tumor and then having the grace to come back and work where you are. I would still be curled up in the fetal position where you went back to work and are now fielding a new opportunity.

      Seriously that’s amazing … share your awesomeness with people who deserve you.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        All of this. Your current employer fired you during a 48 second phone call – that’s a classless way to treat an employee regardless of whether or not they knew about your illness. Take the new job. Your current company is straight garbage.

        And please let your new job know you’re recovering from a major illness so in the event that you have a relapse of some kind, they’ll know you’re not slacking off. Good luck to you whatever you decide.

    2. Jedi Squirrel*

      I don’t know if this will work for you, but what I do is give myself time and space to feel all the feels. I’ll tell myself, “Okay, I’m going to feel absolutely shitty about this for the next seven days” and then I’ll spend as much time as possible walking in the woods, which is my safe space. (There’s a nature preserve near my home, so it’s safe in many ways.)

      Usually, long before the seven days are up, I’m itching to start thinking about the future and how good that next thing is going to be.

      The thing is, you’ve got to feel what is in you to feel. Most people don’t give themselves permission to feel bad about a situation like this. Make a time and space for it, feel it, and you’ll find it easier to let go of. You survived a terrible medical situation and a great job awaits you. You’ve got this!

    3. Antilles*

      Here’s your confidence boost:
      After having to fight through illness that affected your work, after nearly being let go, after major health issues…what happened?
      This new non-profit specifically went out of their way to call you. Not a normal interview process, not a “okay, who’s available?” but a direct contact to you personally, because they know how stellar you are.

      1. juliebulie*

        Yes! That puts it in perspective:

        Your current job tried to fire you in less than a minute, and hung up on you. When they said they’d keep you, they made it sound as though they were doing it out of guilt.

        Feh. The new people sound MUCH better.

  175. MereridElen*

    I work in an Assisted Living facility and one of my coworkers has a side hustle as a Scentsy consultant. He recently brought one of his warmers and some wax and turned it on. The majority of my coworkers think it smells great, but I can’t stand it for multiple reasons. The two biggest are that the scent is so overpowering that I get a headache, and it also makes me nauseous. Other people have told me that it gives them headaches too. I turn it off when I can but the scent just stays. I don’t want to be the over sensitive person, but I’m starting to dread coming to work. Should I talk to him directly, or ask our supervisor to talk to him?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Talk to him first for sure! He may be super willing to remove it once he knows it’s causing you pain.

    2. Psyche*

      Talk to him directly first. If he refuses to stop using it, then you should bring it to your supervisor.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Tell him about it!

      You don’t have to approach it like:

      “Hey Kevin, your scent thing ef’ing stinks! Imma throw that in the trash!”

      Say “Hey Kevin, that scented wax you’ve been using is really triggering my headaches =( I’m sensitive to scents, can you please take it home?”

      If he’s unreasonable and is all “Nah gurl nah.” then go to the boss and he’s a butthead. But I get the feeling if he knew it was hurting people, he’d take it home! Most people don’t want to cause you pain. You’re not sensitive, your headaches aren’t by choice!

      1. ACDC*

        I agree that you should bring it up to him directly at first, and then go to a supervisor if he doesn’t respond.

    4. YetAnotherUsername*

      Yes tell him! If he’s in any way a decent person he would want to know if he’s causing other people pain.

  176. Buyernonymous*

    So I currently work at an organization where it is severely frowned upon (not quite to formal write-up, but very close to it) to say “Because [my boss] told me to do that” in response to “Why did you __________?”

    I am baffled by this. This org has so many rules and regulations and are SEVERELY dysfunctional (I’m sure you’re shocked by that news), and if you ask 3 people the same question you’re absolutely getting at least 2 different answers.

    In a meeting the other day, my grandboss asked me why did I ___, and I said “Because [manager] told me to.” Paused a beat. And then continued with “Because [reasons it needed to be done that way]”. And the response was that I “saved” myself with the continuation, because the first response is unacceptable.

    Let me also note that in my position, all of my work has to go to at least boss. Much of it also has to go through boss and grandboss. And a portion still has to go to boss, grandboss, AND great-grandboss. So it just strikes me as so odd that they require approval for anything that we employees do, sometimes three levels of approval, but “Because [boss] told me to” isn’t an acceptable answer.

    1. Jamie*

      This makes no sense to me.

      If people are doing something because of one of my procedures, policies, or I just asked them to do it that way of course they should toss that to me. If someone has a question or issue with why they can ask me and I’ll discuss it.

      I am not technically anyone’s boss atm, but I issue policies and edicts (for lack of a better word) within the company that if they aren’t followed will result in non-compliance so yeah…trust me when I tell you none of the people carrying these out in the course of their work want to know the regulatory requirements from various certifying bodies which informed my decisions.

      That sounds more like a mind game than a management strategy.

      1. Buyernonymous*

        Jamie, THANK YOU! That’s exactly how I feel. We’re also not supposed to say “X File is on [boss’s/grandboss’s/great-granboss’s] desk, waiting for signature”, just supposed to say “X File is still in progress”.

        I am in a HEAVILY regulated field, I have two certifications specific to my job, and I work for the public sector. We have a manual to abide by (statewide), and my org has a separate manual for its employees to also abide by. So I just don’t understand why I’m not allowed to say “Waiting for [boss] to review it” even if boss has had it for a month!

        But yes…this place is total banana crackers/dumpster fire. In that same meeting yesterday, grandboss said “we all missed [thing I pointed out to them IN JULY, but they told me they would figure it out and then basically told me to circumvent the new process the statewide manual said to do]”. Um…no. No, we didn’t all miss that. I have emails proving I brought it to the attention of my boss, and I know for a fact my boss brought it to your attention, because the three of us discussed this very issue in this office on multiple occasions.

        Yes, I’m job searching. Luckily, I’ve become mostly immune to the shenanigans and I can say “not my circus, not my monkeys”, and get EVERYTHING in writing/with signature approval so that when the blowback inevitably comes, there is clear documentation on why I did what I did.

    2. MereridElen*

      Have you asked your direct boss why this is? It might be they want you to show an understanding of the process (like showing your work in math class). If so they should come out and say that, rather than requiring so much approval and not accepting “my boss said that’s how it’s supposed to be done” when that’s the main reason.

      1. Buyernonymous*

        Oh yes, sorry. There’s a TON of backstory on my own Hellmouth. Boss used to be coworker, so at least she gets a lot of the frustration we employees have. Boss says this is just how the org is, essentially. This place is very rigid and policy/procedure driven *on the surface*, but when you ask how to follow many of the processes they’ve listed out, and WHY there is no explanation on how to follow that process, and no training on it given, you’re told how to do it. But if you think you already know, and so you do what you think is right, you will absolutely be called out on it (often times in front of others), like “Why did you do it like X? It’s supposed to be done like Y!” “Well, no one told me that, so I did it the way I’m used to doing things, but I’ll certainly do it like X from now on!” Like…wtf.

          1. Buyernonymous*

            Thank you! I’ve been here 6 months, and in that time, there has been so much turnover. I’ve had 4 bosses in my first four months. Grandboss got demoted and reassigned. First boss got an internal lateral move she wanted. I originally had 3 coworkers reporting to boss. Then one got dismissed (she did great work, but she was PT, and had worked here forever. They dismissed her so they could hire someone else for the same hours but to do more complex work). On my first day, I was told how glad they were that I showed up because *OFTEN*, they have employees who simply no-call no-show on their first day of employment! [I’ve never worked anywhere else where this happens.] Let’s see. Had one coworker start in May, she lasted 6 weeks, and was gone in June. Another coworker (who’d been here 3 years) quit 3 weeks later. Another coworker just put in her notice 2 days ago. We’ve gotten one internal team transfer on our team, and one new employee in this time. Also, when my boss was promoted, all of her work was not reassigned to employees. So my boss has her employee-level work, plus management duties (this is her first management position, and I must say, she is killing it!), PLUS now 3 of her employees have quit in the first 3 months she’s even had the job (all due to things outside of her control, i.e. the awful culture), so she’s got all of THEIR work on top of that to deal with. There are 3 people at her level here. The other 2 have none of their own assignments, and they are the two to get staffing before my boss (even though they had less open positions on their team than my boss). It’s some crazy shit, I tell you.

            One of my coworkers takes a lot of it to heart, so it’s been tough on her. But, like, dude: they outright TOLD you to do it like that! Don’t even worry about it. If they fuss, they fuss. All you can do is change it for next time.

      2. Buyernonymous*

        I’m sorry, I got distracted in my own rant and didn’t really finish the thought. But the things I would say “because I was told to” are things like (from grandboss) “Why did you include X language in this? This doesn’t belong in here.” “Well, manager told me to.” Nope. And, again, ALL of our work has to be reviewed by management before it goes ANYWHERE. So…idk why I’m getting in trouble for what my manager told me to do *and signed off on*.

        Another example: haven’t used memo A for years because they were told not to a year or more ago (I’m only at the 6 month mark here) to only use memo B (they used to have to send A, get that back signed, then send B, get that back signed) because there’s no real reason to send both forms since they were both basically the same thing (i.e., as my coworker/friend put it, memo A would be a letter asking “Will you be my bf/gf, check yes or no, sign, date, and return”, and memo B would be a letter “I would like you to be my bf/gf, if you agree, please sign, date, and return”). Great-grandboss asked why we weren’t using that letter; boss said because [previous grandboss] said not to. GGB said we need to use it. Ok, will do. Literally the next day, grandboss was over here and we started to tell her about that convo, and as soon as she heard what we were talking about she said, Oh, we don’t use memo A anymore. Um…Ok then…?

  177. EggEgg*

    I think I might be getting poached! For context, I’ve been in this role for less than a year and do not have the traditional background, but it’s a small field and I have blown the original role expectations out of the water. I emailed a report template to someone in a similar position but a couple steps up after a recent call we were both on, and she emailed me saying she was impressed and asked if I know anyone with my skill set that would be interested in a remote position she is hiring for. I told her I might have a contact and she sent me the job description–it would be a 38-50% raise from my current salary!

    Is this what poaching looks like, or will I be embarrassing myself if I apply? We are working parallel on an initiative, and I would be so embarrassed to keep working with her if I read this wrong.

    1. Buyernonymous*

      If she specifically said “with *your* skill set”, I think you’re being poached! Congratulations!!

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d just clarify with her if she minded if you applied. Technically it sounds like she sent you details to pass onto your contact. So, let her know you’re open to being poached.

  178. Curious Cat*

    At what point are you no longer considered “entry level”? I’m 3 years post-college and 3 years at my current job. I’d like a raise, but what’s holding me back is the wonder if I’m still entry level and should be making an entry level salary, or if I should be able to make more at this point?

    1. Auddish*

      It depends on the job and how well you’re doing in the position. I would say it’s not unusual to ask for a raise after 3 years, especially if your workload has grown in complexity or your knowledge/skills have broadened. But basically it’s up to you to decide if you’re happy at your current salary or if you want to ask for more (or look elsewhere for higher pay).

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It doesn’t matter if you’re still considered entry-level in your positioning, you should be getting a raise of some kind after 3 years. Barring you being really bad and being on a PIP or having had them in the recent future, which I’m sure isn’t the case with you.

      We have jobs that are always going to be “entry level” but we give raises based on how good you are at that job, how well you operate in that position, do you need a lot of hand holding and help with prioritization or are you able to take your duties and go with them, kind of thing. Are you pitching in and helping others with projects you wouldn’t be doing the first year you were there? That kind of stuff, that’s why we give raises, even if your duties haven’t really changed that much at all. You’re not stuck at the same salary, you should at very least be able to get a cost of living raise. How much as your rent raised since you started 3 years ago for starters! That’s why COLA exists.

      You’re mixing up “entry level” work with “entry level” wages. We start you out at X because that’s the starting, floor level. Then you get to advance as you stay around and do a good job.

      1. Curious Cat*

        Great points, thank you! I’ve gotten cost of living adjustments, but definitely looking for something a big more substantial (done some research into market rates too and it looks like I should be making about 10% more than I currently am). Just didn’t want the idea of “entry level” to hold me back from asking, but you’re right with work vs. wages.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Also phrase it this way.

          You start any job, we pay you say $20 an hour. That’s taking into consideration that you’re in the “Training” period, so you’re really not working at top-speed, top-tier for that job, despite it being probably easy enough to cut your teeth on and has the learning curve built in.

          So now think about what you’re doing differently than when you started. Have you done anything that stands out? Or did you get put onto teams that you wouldn’t have been on Year 1?

          You can approach it as “Since starting here, I have done multiple projects for Big Client and they continue to ask for me directly!” and “Since I’ve started, I’ve joined the safety committee and have been able to assist them in reducing our accidents.” A lot of times it’s not about what you bring to your specific role, it’s what you bring above and beyond that role that gets you the merit raises.

          On the personal level, I get hired to do accounting and run HR. Cool enough. If I just do my job, I would get average raises. But because I have found ways to shave costs and have jumped in on other projects that have come by way, they throw more money at me for it. Some places don’t allow for that kind of thing as well of course but it’s one of those things that maybe if you’re just actively participating on other levels while still doing good work on your core duties, it can be used as part of your case for your raise.

          This is also where it would pay to know how much the others on your team are making but not everyone is comfortable discussing wages with one another.

  179. Adlib*

    This is totally random, but the other day I used “Fergus!” as a stand-in for another popular epithet. Afterward, I was like “What did I just say?”

    1. AnonPi*

      lol, my small office group has started saying ‘quack’ when things go bat shit are you kidding me this is unbelievable crazy.

  180. Completely Anonymous*

    This is probably too far down to be read, but maybe just typing it out will help me think through things. I’ve also changed my name for fear of too many identifying details.

    I’m just over 3 years in my current position. I love my boss and immediate team, who are all remote. The benefits are decent. My in-office department mates literally never talk to me. I can go weeks without conversing with anyone in the physical office. In short, I’m not one of the cool kids. I’ve really enjoyed the bulk of my job in terms of responsibilities, but I feel like I’m stagnating. I intend to speak with my boss when I can. The fly in the ointment is that she’s asked to take a step back because she’s burning out, so she isn’t sure what her position looks like in the future — if she even has one. My position was a newly created one, so there’s no clear line of advancement.

    I’m not sure whether I look for a position elsewhere or hedge my bets and hope for the best. The thing I like best is my relationship with my boss. Everything else is sort of circumstantial. I’m not sure if I’m asking for advice or just venting.

    1. Colette*

      In an ideal world, what would you like to do next?
      Are there tasks your manager is doing that you can take off her plate?

      Liking your boss is huge, but maybe there is a way to expand what you do to give you a challenge as well.

    2. Reba*

      I mean, there is no downside to looking around at other positions, right?

      What does “hope for the best” even look like in your scenario?

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You will probably like your next boss too! I have liked all my bosses [even the one who stabbed me in the back, before you know, he did that]. Just saying. Unless you’re in the line of work where a good, decent boss is truly hard to come by of course!

      If she’s burning out, she’s stepping back, she’s not going to probably be there long term for you. You souldn’t hitch your wagon to hers.

      I would start softly looking, sniff out those options and even do a couple interviews if possible. You’re in a good position. It’s a decent job, you don’t hate it, it doesn’t make you miserable but it could be better. So you get to play the field and toy around with the options you have. If they don’t speak to you, then don’t go there, stay where you’re at! Win/win!

  181. LunarLaunch*

    Hi all! I’m finishing up my summer internship with a federal agency next week, and I was wondering how I should thank the people I worked with? Should I go individual or just send out a branch email that’s basically like “thanks for letting me work here, I learned a lot, etc.etc”? It’s a small branch and I did admin work for everybody there. Thanks to whoever answers!

    1. Colette*

      Send a branch email that says “thanks …” etc., and include your next steps. (“I’m heading back to school to finish my studies in teapot design”) If you want to work in one of the areas you worked in as an intern, you can include that. “After my studies, l hope to specialize in teapot handles.” And then something like “I wish you all the best and hope our paths cross in the future. If you’d like to keep in touch, you can reach me at PersonalEmailAddress”.

    2. House Tyrell*

      If you did work for everyone there, send out a nice going away email with the language below from Colette. I also interned with a federal agency last summer and I gave thank you notes to my directors and some other people who taught me a lot one-on-one when they didn’t have to with my contact information and future plans.

  182. Sharkie*

    Omg I am going to vomit. I just over heard my boss say that he fired the cleaning crew 3 weeks ago. Which means no one has cleaned the bathrooms in almost a month. Excuse me while I take a hot shower

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Have you noticed it being crusty?! Are you certain he didn’t fire the OLD crew and bring in a new one? who’s been stocking the bathroom if they’re not there?

      I mean I’ve fired a cleaning crew before but it didn’t mean I didn’t bring in a new one.

      But yeah, I’ve also had bosses who refuse to hire a cleaning crew ever. So those bathrooms are pretty, yeah they’re gross AF. I used to use the bathroom at the supermarket over the one at the shop years ago.

      1. Sharkie*

        Not really. I am the only women at this site so I have my own private bathroom. I noticed no one has been taking the trash out so I thought they forgot to do it. Still so gross

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          The good thing is that you don’t have to share with anyone. Been there as well. But yeah, I wonder why he decided to get rid of the cleaning crew, it’s rarely a super big expense…is he cutting other things or is he notoriously cheap?! That’s such a weird thing to cut unless you’re dying for cash.

          1. Jamie*

            Agreed weird thing to cut.

            But I worked at a place that 3x a week would buy lunch for all 15 or so people in the office, but suddenly decided those little creamer containers for coffee were too expensive and the staff was “getting spoiled by perks”.

            So apparently the big money saver was to have the office manager buy bottles of creamer, which she never did, but several hundreds of dollars in lunch bills a week was never considered extravagant.

            I will never understand people.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              You’re stroking the inner finance demon inside of meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee with this story. I think my eyes just turned pitch black even.

              I’ve cut out a lot of waste over the years and it’s never been on that kind of weird scale. I get the feeling the office manager doesn’t use creamer but enjoys free lunches. So “These are expensive, let’s cut them out!”

              The boxes of flavor shots are 10.59 at Costco. And they should last longer than containers of creamer. Since they’re less likely to be over poured because duh, portioned out. [I hate them for their environmental waste but even I still keep buying them.] You could also get powdered creamer. Then it’s shelf steady like the shots *blinks*

              Watching pennies instead of dollars. Also the fact that Spoiling Employees ISNT A THING. It’s never been a thing. I side eye when people bring this up and I’m like “Yeah no, that’s not spoiling anyone. Get me a nap pod, get me a daybed and get me a servant and we’ll talk about “spoiling”. Coffee is not spoiling, coffee is basic sh*t!”

            2. Close Bracket*

              I can stay at a Marriott when I travel, but I can’t take toll roads, not even if I stay at the Econolodge instead. ???

              1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                I just. I wanna meet the person behind that policy. Just to chat, you know. Just to check that their brains are in their GD skulls where they are supposed to be, you know…

          2. Sharkie*

            Apparently, they weren’t cleaning to his standards so my boss told them “you only did half the work so I am going to pay you half of what we normally do”. That went over well . It’s ok we are moving in 7 weeks to a new place.

  183. Dr. Ross Gellar*

    I was recently let go from my job for the most asinine reason ever! You see, my sister makes these amazing turkey sandwiches. She soaks a slice of bread in gravy and puts it in the middle. I call it the moist maker. Anyway, she made me a sandwich for work yesterday, and I put it in the company refrigerator. All morning long, I kept thinking about that turkey sandwich and how good it was going to be. Imagine my shock when I opened the fridge at lunchtime to discover that someone stole my sandwich! It turned out that it was my boss! When he fessed up, I did what anyone would do: I called him out on it. Who does he think he is eating my sandwich? MY SANDWICH? Then, he fired me, saying that I need to control my anger! Of course I was angry! Wouldn’t you be angry if someone stole your lunch?

    1. irene adler*

      I’d file for unemployment. Let him explain to the ‘powers that be’ the reason he fired you.

    2. ACDC*

      Sure I would be angry, but I feel like there are some details missing from this account to be honest. Were you yelling, cursing, etc? Because that really isn’t okay in any instance, especially to your boss.

    4. juliebulie*

      I think we are all ignoring what’s most important: soaking a slice of bread in gravy.

      I need to look into this.

      1. valentine*

        what’s most important: soaking a slice of bread in gravy.
        Yes. It’s genius.

        South, have you been sitting on this? (Obviously, biscuits are superior, but, still.)

  184. AnonyMe*

    I just passed a few rounds of initial interviews for a company and position that would be the perfect fit for the next step in my career. Hooray! If I make it past the next phone interview, the company will be flying me out for a full day of onsite interviews as the final part of the process.

    However, the issue I have is that my current company has an “unlimited” PTO policy that isn’t exactly unlimited. I’ve already exceeded the recommended number of days that someone at my level of tenure should take per year, and so I’m trying to figure out how I can ask for that extra day off for the interview. I don’t want to make it seem like a medical emergency, since I actually do have some serious health concerns that flare up from time to time, so I don’t want to be misleading about what this specific day is being used for.

    The other factor is that my manager has started to increasingly become micromanaging over the past year, and not fully supportive of the career path that I want to take, so I think that she’s already starting to get the sense that I might be looking elsewhere.

    Does anyone have any advice for how I can phrase my request for time off if I do end up getting invited for the final interview? Thank you!

    1. Kiwiii*

      Do you need to make it sound like an emergency to use the PTO as medical? You could mention to your manager that you may have to take a day or two off soon (if you can get in) to see a specialist as a routine part of the health concern. Or if bringing medical stuff into it at all worries you, perhaps mention that a friend you don’t get to see much is trying to have a get together soon in City, but you probably won’t know until a week before or so because they’re kind of flakey. I’m a big believer in the preemptive heads up.

      1. AnonyMe*

        All of our PTO is lumped into a single bucket (so, there’s no official separation between vacation and sick time), but it’s generally understood that if you need to take off extra time beyond the recommended amount, it could only be approved for medical reasons. Since I’ve already taken more than the recommend number of days for vacation reasons, I don’t think my manager would approve it if I said I needed the time off to see a friend. I could try to call it a generic appointment, or maybe imply that it’s for medical reasons, but then if I get offered the job soon after, it’ll seem pretty obvious that that’s why I was actually away from work. Even though I might be leaving the company soon, I would still feel bad about being misleading.

        But I definitely agree: Giving a heads up as early as I can would be the best way to go!

  185. Asocially Yours*

    Back from last week.

    Still struggling with finding balance with appeasing some of my co-worker’s social needs while maintaining my own want for space in the shared office. It’s definitely a challenge.

    Some context that I didn’t include last time, which may or may not make a difference, is that while we co-exist in the same room, we each have our own cubicle. This is why I treated our situation as having separate offices, especially because we don’t have the luxury of “closing” a door to each other.

    But, like I said, it’s been a challenge.

    Someone suggested I set aside a bit of time to just check in with her and try to control how much she seeks out conversation. But we keep different hours, so by the time she hits her first morning wind I’m just walking in (and already in work mode), and by the time I’m wrapping up my work for the day (and thus more open to conversation) she’s already gone. We don’t take lunch at the same time, either.

    I think it’s starting to get to the both of us, to be honest. I’m at the point now where I sometimes will print my stuff across the building, because the printer is right next to her and she inevitably tries to start personal conversation when I just want to pick up my papers. And she’s commented several times on how quiet I am – I even scared her this week somehow because I don’t make noise when I walk??

    But today was a rough day for the both of us. She was talking about something – I have no idea what – and made a comment about how she’ll just monologue to herself. (Okay…?) And later, she was upset about something work-related and kept trying to dump those emotions on me – which I am very much not okay with. It’s fine to have a bad day, we all have them, but talk about that with a friend or family member, not me.

    As a side note, I know someone mentioned last week it could be beneficial to be a little more social with her, especially if I hit a point at work where I need a break from working, but… I’ve never really needed another person to take a mental break? If I get tired of one task, I switch to another. If I get tired of that one, I daydream a bit before getting back into gear. So, I don’t really need her for that kind of side conversation.

    Anyway, after this week, I’m heavily leaning toward just pretending we have separate offices again.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Have you tried just telling her that you’re not very chatty? Like in a really polite and upbeat way? I’m not very talkative at work at all, and I’ve had some coworkers that just need to constantly talk. And they always end up making the comment that I am not talking back and I just say “Oh I’m not much of a talker! Nothing personal.” And then continue to be warm and friendly to them. Or you could say “Hey when I get here I tend to be in work mode and just like to focus on getting X and Y done. Sorry I’m not much of a talker!”

      And if setting aside time to engage her every day doesn’t work, could you do lunch with her a couple times a month to get the chatters out? Or Hey I’m going to get coffee, want to walk with me? if your lunch schedules don’t line up. Only do that as much as YOU want though. If she starts expecting this every day, say you need to finish something up or have an errand or appointment to run over lunch.

      1. valentine*

        She is the Molly to your Amelia. I wonder if there’s anything in that letter that would help you. I think you need to say that you just work best when it’s quiet and you’re happy to say hello, but not much else.

        From your post last week: Is it possible to have a good – or at least neutral – relationship with a coworker without having conversations?
        Yes, but I think the Mollys need to find each other. If this person were happy to do her socializing elsewhere (and unless you’re in the same situation, I don’t know why she needs to talk while working, instead of chatting with other colleagues), she wouldn’t be a Molly. The person I got along best with chose to move into my arctic office and we said an average minimum of zero and max of four words to each other all day (Hi/Good morning/Bye/See you tomorrow). ‘Twas bliss!

    2. LuckySophia*

      I’m struggling with how to avoid sounding harsh when what I really am suggesting here is “Just be practical!”.
      SO: You both had a “rough day” due to the Clash.Of.The.Interaction.Styles. If you don’t find it desirable to experience more such rough days in the future, (or keep walking across the building to a remote printer) I think it’s incumbent upon you to try to better manage the situation. For your own benefit, primarily, but also for her benefit.

      If I were in your shoes, I’d get my focus OFF your differences, and turn it towards your one commonality: humanity. Her style may annoy the crap out of you, but she’s a person with feelings and needs just as you are.
      Her need for human interaction is just as important to her as your need for minimal/no interaction is to you.

      Why not approach her Monday morning when you first get in, acknowledge that Friday was awkward and uncomfortable, and explain to her that while you like her as a person, you really don’t enjoy conversation or a lot of interaction, especially when you are focusing on your work. Make her understand that you’re not silent because you dislike her, you’re silent because that’s just who you are in general, and that’s what you pretty much need to get through your workday. Make sure she knows you’re not being silent AT her.

      (Except, I gotta say, it sounds like on Friday you actually WERE being silent AT her, which is kinda mean/passive aggressive if you haven’t already had the above type of conversation with her. And maybe you have told her all this already, and she just ignored it, in which case I sort of get why you ignored her in return. But still….you’re better off to use your words, I think. If she keeps monologuing AFTER you’ve explained things to her, just remind her (kindly) that this is how you roll (silently).

      BUT, as other posters have suggested, really think about scheduling time — even if it’s 5 minutes mid-morning and 5 minutes mid-afternoon — to just interact with her. You set the talk-time boundaries, but do acknowledge her existence as another human being in your 2-cubicle world. Commiserate that it’s raining, or too damn hot, or that the printer always @*#&$ jams. Whatever. While it’s clear you feel you don’t *need* this in your current workplace… it sounds like a good skill for you to develop. Most workplaces would expect you to engage in at least a minimal level of courteous (even if meaningless to you!) social interaction with colleagues.

    3. Kathenus*

      I think you should take the Les Nessman from WKRP in Cincinnati approach and frame out your office with tape on the floor; and pretend it’s an actual office like he does including only responding if someone knocks on the ‘door’ since of course you can’t hear them talking otherwise. Since you’re in, you know, your office :)

  186. AliV*

    Anybody have insight into or experience with this sort of performance review strategy?

    At my company I have to do an annual self eval. That seems perfectly normal. What I’m confused by is that…that’s it. My manager doesn’t do one.

    We review the self eval together at a meeting. I sign it.

    At every other job my manager’s eval was the “official” one, and mine seemed to be to add color commentary and to help jog the manager’s memory about accomplishments.

    Has anyone else experienced a process like this? Any clue why they are using this method?

    1. Jamie*

      Sounds like laziness, tbh. They want you to do the work for them.

      But then you get more control of the narrative this way so I’d definitely make sure you load your review with all the measurable accomplishments of the year.

      1. AliV*

        Yeah. My frustration is that I would actually like some honest feedback. That doesn’t happen because we just talk about whatever I wrote down.

    2. Close Bracket*

      Weird, but, awesome! You can write whatever you want!

      I’ve always had reviews where both my manager and I wrote an eval. My current review process appears to be, I write nothing, they write a bunch of stuff, we talk, we both add comments afterward.

      Any review with only input from one person seems weird to me.

  187. NeonDreams*

    I had my job interview I mentioned in last week’s thread. It went fine. I don’t feel like Au bombed it, but didn’t ace it either. Hopefully I left a good enough impression. back to Customer Service for now, though (Sigh).

  188. MilleniOwl*

    Hi, this is the second time I’ve commented ever I think. For reference, I’m 30 and this is the only job I’ve ever had. (Long story)

    I currently work as admin at a real estate firm in City A. I’ve been here 5 years total, longer than anyone else on staff except the CEO. We don’t really do formal reviews but my work is exemplary and I’ve had increasing responsibility over the years I’ve been staff. Right now I’m essentially a one woman department, and I am very comfortable in my work and very well liked in the company as a whole.

    For several years I’ve been wanting to move to much larger much better in every way City B. Very recently I’ve been offered a place to stay (the biggest hurdle for this move) in City B at a reduced rent rate from what I’m paying now. This move would enable me to pay off debts and save up for a deposit on my own apartment on City B. Dream come true! The company has several offices in City B, but I’m a one woman department for City A, which means I’d essentially be working remotely doing the same tasks, which management has frowned upon in the past except for in cases of inclement weather. There are other jobs I could get in City B with my skillset in my field, but my job is the only job I’ve ever had.

    I need to have a conversation with my manager about my intentions once I’m ready to get the ball rolling, but I’m concerned they’ll shoo me out once I reveal the intent to move and I’ll be out of a job before I’m ready. I could use some other colleagues as references, but they haven’t managed me, just worked with me and seen how well I do this work.

    I guess I’m asking for permission to apply to other jobs and find some kind of workaround for the references, but I’m open to any ideas you all might have as well.

    Thank you!

    1. Kiwiii*

      1) It’s worth examining what you know about what has happened with other people who have started a job search that the manager(s) have known about, especially those who had been there for a comparable amount of time or anyone else who was well-liked. Did they get shuffled out or were they allowed the courtesy of managing the terms of their leaving? Figure out how much you should share and what you can ask for from there.

      2) Since you’re a one woman department, ensure that your documentations and processes are as clear and encompassing as possible, so that /if/ someone else ends up needing to take over for you on somewhat short notice, those documents are already there.

      3) If you’re going to try for working remotely, I would commit to doing that for At Least a year (and more like two) before you look for another job in City B to ensure that it looks as though you did it in good faith. This is especially true because they seem to drag their feet about remote work. I do think you can argue it if you want to, though, especially as a one woman department. Instead of working remotely, could you transfer to an office at B and they hire someone else at office A?

      4) Think critically about what’s best for you. Five years is a long time to have been in your first job. Are you still learning and growing in your job? Are you getting more opportunities and skills (and raises and perks?)? You have permission to do what’s best for you, but don’t assume that applying to other jobs will completely remove management references.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Frankly, I’m jealous; if I had a place to stay in Coveted City and could pay reduced rent there, I’d be gone so fast you’d be choking on my dust.

      Figure out a timeline for when you want to actually move and start applying for jobs in City B. It costs nothing to put out feelers. I’d wait to talk to your manager until you’ve actually started applying for other jobs and see if you get any bites.

      When you do talk to them, be prepared to cite examples of how you would stay in communication as a remote worker, keep projects up to date, and how it would benefit the company to allow the change. Since you’re the only person doing this job, they may be inclined to consider it, since it’s definitely cheaper than hiring and training someone new. It could help if you’re willing to travel back now and then for meetings if necessary (if feasible).

      Colleagues are fine to use as references. I’ve done that when I had no managers from previous jobs because they left and I had no contact info for them.

      If you can’t swing it any other way, you may have to just move and take a subsistence job for a bit while applying for the better ones once you’re already there. You’ve already got a leg up by having a cheaper place to stay.

      Don’t let this being the only job you’ve ever had hold you back. It’s not the only job you can ever get. You don’t need permission. This is your life–live it!!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I was you a few years ago. I was at the same place for 10 years though. Then I met my partner and he relocated for a job, so I was like “gotta get going on out of this Popsicle stand.”

      I was worried about references as well. Thankfully the ownership was not awful and love me, so it didn’t work out in the way of needing a work around there. I had coworkers and clients as reference as well.

      First thing is that not everywhere checks references. Especially for an admin job, I wouldn’t be shocked if you have to put them down on a piece of paper but they don’t necessarily call anyone. So there’s that.

      You really just need to get to grooving. You’re young. You have a good amount of experience, doing a job that is usually pretty easy to come by in the right cities. So shoo shoo shoo on out of there yourself, you will be better for it. It’s their fault that they’re weird about remote work, if they really want to keep you, when you let them know, they’ll fall over themselves to say “Usually we don’t do this but we love you and you can work remote from our satellite office!” So you may be surprised but it’s always good to assume that they’ll be all “Okay bye then.” Just for your own sanity and safety of knowing what your life will be like in that sense.

    4. MilleniOwl*

      Thank you! I appreciate all the advice very much. I think I’ll go ahead and start applying to jobs and see if I get any bites first. I can do the thing!

  189. Rusty Shackelford*

    I am very unexpectedly being thrown into a “devil you know” situation and quite honestly, the devil I don’t know sounds pretty appealing. The major downside is how it would impact people in my current area. And it would be an internal move, so that matters. {screams into the void}

    1. MissDisplaced*

      My take on this Rusty is that you take care of YOU first. Therefore, you must ask yourself the following things objectively without worrying about others and how they will feel.

      Does [thing] advance your career opportunities?
      Does [thing] pay more?
      Are there better work/life benefits or other benefits for doing [thing]?
      Do you want to do it?
      Is there a personal downside to not doing [thing]?

      Sometimes the devil you don’t know is scary and risky and hard. But some people also thrive on those challenges and advance because they took a risk and learned something new. Sometimes the devil you don’t know is easier in many ways. Don’t know which it is, but the same questions apply. Good luck!

  190. This is getting old*

    Things Job Seekers Wish You Would Stop Doing: A Rant

    –Asking me how the job hunt is going. If I have news, I’ll share it.

    –Suggesting I apply to Local Company X immediately after I’ve specifically told you I am leaving town.

    –Telling me the city where I’m going and the city where I’d like to live are “dangerous because guns.” Every place in the U.S. is dangerous because guns, Chicken Little.

    –Telling me a city or location where I’d like to live is dangerous because demographics but “I’m not talking about race.” Yes you are, BBQ Becky.

    –Assuming I’m doing nothing, or doing it wrong, and talking down to me as though I don’t even have the most basic skills.

    –Getting mad when I don’t take unsolicited advice that is wildly wrong or gumption-based.

    –If I say anything about how hard it is to get published, telling me I’m “being negative” when you know nothing about the industry.

    –Sending me links to consultants who promise to help people get published and charge buttloads of money for information I can find online for free.

    –Being unable to talk about anything but my job hunt. I want to talk about Avengers: Endgame (or anything else) instead, because I’m tired of talking about my job hunt.

    {-_-}

    /end rant

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have to laugh but I’m laughing because I know your pain.

      “Seattle is where you go to die!” Still not dead, hermit family and weird still backwoodsy friends.

      I’m sorry that these people will not leave you alone and look forward to when you’re away from their “helpfulness” and “kindess of my heart’ness”.

      1. This is getting old*

        Oh God, me too.

        I wish I could strike it rich so I could just flee into the night and never return.

    4. QueenoftheCats*

      RE: Uninformed, unsolicited advice. It drives me bonkers when I get unsolicited advice from people who a) have never worked in my field b) haven’t had to do the job-hunt hustle in over a decade. Like, thanks, but don’t be offended when I tell you you’re wrong and I have no intentions of taking it.

    5. Nacho*

      Sorry to hear you’re having trouble being published. Mom’s a writer so I know second hand how tough it is to get a somebody to look at your manuscript.

  191. a little frustrated*

    I’ve been unemployed since March (my boss felt I just wasn’t happy working there, so he let me go), and have had a few internships in the meantime. Recently, my latest internship has also led to me getting an interview in a place I would have never looked had I not had the connections. Went through the interview, was given a tour through the building and explained their daily procedures, and had a second interview after that. Things went pretty well, actually.

    Fast forward a week later, I’ve kept in touch with my thank you letters and follow ups (one of each), and I finally hear back from the company. I learn I’m overqualified for the job, though they do offer to send along my resume to other companies in the area on my behalf. What’s the best way to write a thank you letter back to them, explaining I would love that? I don’t want to sound desperate.

    1. fposte*

      You mean email, right? This is a low-key “Thanks. I’d appreciate that!” email situation; don’t overthink it.

      1. fposte*

        All right, you can probably phrase it a little less casually :-). But “Thank you very much; I enjoyed meeting you and I appreciate the offer” really does cover it.

  192. Em from NY (no longer in NY)*

    Could use y’all’s advice.

    The short version: I’m a new manager–been in my role two weeks–and my section was handed to me in a budget deficit. I have two team members who in unfunded positions, and so now I have to either find funding for them or lay them off.

    The longer version: I just started my role two weeks ago. I have three direct reports, each of whom has a few staff under them. Because my role was empty for a while–and because my company was going through a lot of transition the last few years, I’m the first person to have held this role. The folks who are my direct reports didn’t really have any management for the past few years.

    So it’s budget season, and I am discovering that my team is in a six-figure deficit when it comes to personnel. I’m not talking overhead–purely personnel-related. I’m in state government, so each position has to have some kind of allocated funding–and it turns out that two of mine don’t. So right off the bat I have two folks who I can’t pay for and will have to lay off, if I can’t find funding for them elsewhere.

    So not only do I have to deal with the actual hiring side of this (if I can’t find funding, I want to help these folks find another position) but then I have to deal with the fact that now my team is going to have to cover the work of these two positions.

    Any advice? State government folks, any thoughts? I’m new to being a manager, and I’m new to this particular state government (California) so I’m feeling stymied about where to turn.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Oh that’s a tough nut to be in. You have my sympathies. Especially if these people did nothing wrong. It’s a real morale killer.

    2. LQ*

      Are you a union state? Will these folks be able to bump others? This is an important thing to be aware of. It’s often easier to transfer internally. If you do have to lay them off could you ensure that they have job titles that are more easily transferable? (We have Program Name Analyst type job titles which don’t translate well, so giving someone a Generic Business Term Analyst type title would be a big deal.) That may be more than you can manage if you have a tight turn around on it though.

      What work can your team stop doing? What are you actually funded to do? And how do you make sure you do it to a level than will earn you continued funding? That may sound mercenary but it is what you should do. Government should do what we are required to measure. (Essentially.)

    3. CatCat*

      Your agency’s HR or CalHR seem like the best places to turn on dealing with the CA state government issues. Also, are there any other managers you can discuss the issues with at your agency?

      On the issue of having the work get covered, you’re going to have to crystal clear prioritize work that must be done versus what can get behind, cut out anything that doesn’t really need doing, make sure any underperforming staff are performing and don’t just assign their work to the more competent staff, and set the expectations for the people above you and any internal clients on what can reasonably be done with fewer employees. For the employees, what support can you offer them? Be flexible with schedules? Provide learning opportunities? Do any of the lower level staff WANT higher work so they are better positioned for promotions in the future (and can you accomplish this without reaching a threshold of working them out of class)? Listen to what the people under you down the chain want or need here as they may have ideas on how things can go more smoothly.

      You’re going to have to acknowledge what is going on before the rumor mill gets started and people start reaching their own conclusions. Like, if I were the last man standing among your direct reports, I’d be wondering if I was next and you’d been brought in to essentially clean house. You’re in a really tough spot since people here don’t know you. But acknowledging, “Hey, here’s the situation, it sucks, but I’m committed to ensuring as smooth a process as possible, am willing to advocate for our needs, and am listening to you” may go a long way.

  193. Brought On to Shift the Culture But Getting No Support*

    A year ago, I was hired to make some significant changes at a nonprofit. Every change has been like pulling teeth, and I’ve received no support at all from the executives who dreamed up my role, but I’ve usually had some hope that things will happen, but slowly. I’m finally beginning to think that they hired me so that they can say that they’re trying to change, but they actually have no intention of supporting my initiatives at all. Like having me on staff is a checked off task, whether or not I accomplish anything. It’s a depressing feeling.

    1. juliebulie*

      So basically the executives want to be able to blame you if things don’t change, even though it seems more likely that the executives are the reason for all of the problems.

  194. That sinking feeling*

    I need help! I’ve always had a tendency to procrastinate but now it’s worse than ever. I started a new job a few months back after escaping an awful place where I only lasted a bit over a year. So, you’d think I would be really motivated and keen to impress but somehow I’m not. After many years of being quite ambitious I now feel like I just need to be ‘good enough’ to survive and not get caught out and that I have missed the opportunity to really become ‘something’. I don’t do nothing at work but I could certainly do a lot more. I’m badly organized and push things ahead of me instead of dealing with me. Clearly this is not sustainable and I feel terrible, yet still succumb to watching random videos every day and doing other time wasting stuff. Because I’m in a tiny office with no oversight the onus is really on me to shape up and self-motivate – no-one else will help me with it. Does anybody have good tips and/or have managed to turn a similar situation around?

    1. GG*

      Have you tried setting VERY manageable task goals for yourself each day – and then starting to work up from there? Literally like “write email to X” and “prepare for Y” and that’s it, then you can watch videos the rest of the time if you feel like it. I wonder if that would help get you in the work mindset and energize you so you’d keep going (kind of like the tip when you don’t feel like exercising, tell yourself you only need to do 5 minutes and you’ll usually keep going) – or at least get you in the habit of knocking things off your to-do list and then you could slowly make the to-do list longer?

      Is there anything deeper going on that you could work on or talk to your manager about? Might be worth considering. Do you feel insecure about what you know / are good at in your new role? Maybe expectations aren’t totally clear or you don’t know exactly where to being? Not feeling supported by the team? etc…

    2. Querty*

      (1) Look into moving desks to a more busy/populated area. If you’re sitting somewhere where others can see your screen as they walk by, you’ll be more motivated to stay on top of your tasks.
      (2) Ask your boss for deadlines.
      (3) Take short walks. This help sustain focus.
      (4) Do not allow yourself to stay late at work or take work home. That way, you’ll know that you can’t keep pushing everything to the imaginary land of “later.”

  195. croix toy*

    Our office provides free soda but it’s no one’s job to stock the fridge. I had been the only person stocking the fridge and I quit drinking soda 6 months ago. Since then, people have gotten into screaming arguments about the last diet Coke in the fridge. People have been aggressively hiding cans or writing their names on it. I don’t understand, why can’t these adults just put some sodas in the fridge every time they take one?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m mostly shocked that they’re allowed to act like children more than the fact they are acting like children.

      You work with such selfish people. Just pop in your headphones and watch them fight to the death over that precious Diet Coke.

      But seriously, the fact people are just allowed to get into screaming matches over anything, let alone Diet Coke is mind blowing.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Yep I say just let them having a screaming fight over it. Who cares? It’s free entertainment. I have a woman I work with in her 60’s who comes into my office and has screaming tantrums really often and that’s how I view it as.

    2. Mama Bear*

      So the soda is in the break room but no one puts it in the fridge? Who is buying them? I’d talk to that person about either designating a stocker or stop buying sodas. Your coworkers are ridiculous.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I vote for it being removed completely, tbh.

        The person who buys the sodas here is me because I do the purchasing. The person who puts them in the breakroom is the person in shipping/receiving since they deliver everything to it’s right spot when it’s received. The people who put them in the fridge is whoever wants to do it, usually a couple of us will do it or someone will get tired and do it. But yeah sometimes it just sits in the supply closet which is fine, people can take it or leave it but sure the ef cannot scream at each other.

    3. Bilateralrope*

      If that was my workplace, I’d be tempted to drink a can of unrefrigerated soda in front of the people arguing. Then put a can of the same soda into the fridge.

      Just to mess with them.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      There’s a lot of hate in AaM for anonymous notes, but if it were me I’d try taping a note to the fridge that reads something along the lines of, “Sodas — help yourself! Then kindly put one into the fridge to replace the one you took. THANK YOU!”

  196. CrookedLily*

    My worst nightmare has come true. My former manager, a terrible, horrible manager who was equally loathed by his reports as well as other members of management, has been rehired by the company. He technically resigned, around two years ago, but the truth is he was pushed into leaving because no one could stand him. His management style is a complete cultural mismatch for the company, in that the company believes in treating employees like humans and he does not. I and my other team members who worked under him are appalled that the company would even have considered rehiring him. He’s in a completely different department now, but given the function of my department it is only a matter of time before we will interact. I don’t want this to be real.

  197. kible*

    A question about thank you notes after interviews, as i just had my first in-person one. When you don’t have the contact information of the people you interviewed with, is it ok to send it to the person you were in contact with to schedule the interviews? How would you phrase things? I read one site that says to write in there to “pass along this thank you to my interviewers” or something.

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I am not a hiring manager but I do believe that would be fine. Is there a way you could find their email addresses on their website?

      1. kible*

        i’ve looked, and they’re not there – both in the sense of “email isn’t there” and “employees are not on the site”. so i’ll just go ahead and email the hiring person

    2. Layoff Laments*

      Yes, your idea would be just fine and totally normal. In fact, I’ve had hiring teams and recruiting teams emphasize to contact the recruiting coordinator with any correspondence, so I think it’s safest to go that route. And saying “please pass along to so-and-so” is what I do. Sometimes I hear a confirmation back from the recruiting team and sometimes I don’t, so that is one thing to be prepared for.

      Congrats on the first in-person interview! Best of luck to you.

  198. Ellie*

    Does anyone have a suggestion about a decent place to work for a sidegig? I had some unexpected expenses and I think the best choice would be for me to find something to do on the side. I’m a college graduate, but tbh just looking for something that won’t completely drain me while still pulling 40+/week at my regular job. I’ve done retail and food service before, but just wondering if anyone had any good experiences with certain companies or roles. Thanks in advance!

    1. Tigger*

      I have had luck at total wine around this time of year. You just have to be very firm with them over your hours and availability. There were so many people in full-time jobs that worked it as a side hustle. Also, the employee discounts were nice if you were entertaining at all over the holidays

        1. Close Bracket*

          Check back next month. Also check other Big Box retailers. They all want extra help around the holidays.

          1. Trixie*

            Yes! I once worked at an American Girl call center for holidays and it led to a permanent pt position. Best side gig ever because I used extra income towards debt and wasn’t tempted to buy the products. We were gifted products which I just donated to local shelter.

      3. Bunny Girl*

        I wish more than anything we had a Total Wine in my area. I would never have a paycheck though…

    2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Freelance writing opportunities are plentiful, if that’s something you’re interested in.

      1. Ellie*

        How would I go about finding these positions? I do a lot of writing in my day job, but never any formal journalism where I’d have a real portfolio of work. Thanks!

        1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

          You can start by reaching out to professional publications in your field. For example, if you’re a yoga instructor, maybe you can write for a yoga magazine or write catalog copy for catalogs of yoga equipment. If you read text for your job, someone wrote that text. You could be that someone.

          You can also advertise yourself on a site like Fiverr (which I hate because it encourages people to devalue their work, but is a good place to start getting clips and clients) or at least look through the freelance writer postings there and see what kinds of things people do. Or investigate freelance writers’ associations of various types. When I started working as a freelance editor, I joined the Editorial Freelancers Association and learned about jobs I hadn’t known existed—indexing! being a professional product namer!—just by reading other people’s bios. Learning that there’s an American Medical Writers Association or Association of Food Journalists might be similarly inspiring for you.

        2. WellRed*

          If you go this route, it might help to join an association or something as suggested to get contacts. I get lots of unsolicited emails from random freelancers. Delete.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      If you have a Papa Murphy’s in your area, that was hands down my favorite food job. They were only super busy some times, it was sort of mind-numbing in a good way, they aren’t open super late, and since you don’t have ovens or anything to clean, you get out pretty quick as well.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are you good with tutoring or with transcription? There are services out there for both of those that you can do on your own time. Like online tutoring. A friend of mine is doing ESL teaching via some kind of service that’s out there [I really stink for not having actual names for these things but just as things you may be ale to dig a little deeper into]

  199. BigLo*

    I just found out that my father’s office only accepts resumes via mail or in-person. The majority of their recent hires have been people starting our their careers in a receptionist position or as assistants. I don’t live in the same town so I am not sure if this is typical for hiring there still but I can’t help but think they’re alienating anyone “normal” who would be turned off by two seemingly archaic options in 2019. Is there any wording you’d say to him to recommend his office get with the times and get an email address?

    1. Mama Bear*

      His company doesn’t even have an email address? What happens to the resumes once they arrive? If they go to a particular department or person, that person can be the POC on the websites/job postings. How are they advertising positions?

      Depending on his business, you might say that he will attract more tech savvy top talent if he at least provides them an email address to submit applications. Email is very standard and expected these days, even if they don’t use a fancy recruiting site.

    2. juliebulie*

      Are they having trouble finding people to hire? If not, I don’t think they need any advice.

      I’m actually glad that some places will accept an application in person or by mail. But it is pretty archaic not to have email, though.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Well, I worked somewhere not that long ago that only accepted walk-in applicants. We did have an email system, we did post online on the relative boards but it was strictly “Come in and fill out an application.” setup.

      How do they advertise the positions? All they need to do is get a gmail account ffs if it’s an email issue.

      The fact they’re mailing in resumes though, that makes them so slow to get them. They don’t even have a fax, given out ancient this place is running, I’m shocked if they don’t.

    4. Anon Librarian*

      Honestly, I find it kind of endearing and intriguing. But I wonder if and how it’s actually affecting the applicant pool. And, in turn, how it’s affecting the company.

      Two concerns come to mind: 1) Is it skewing their applications towards certain demographics (older people, people who live or work nearby) and what is the effect? 2) Are they effectively selecting for people who are less comfortable with current technology and against people who have more technical knowledge?

      I think the second point could be easier to bring up initially. If he complains about a technical issue at work (“We didn’t know what software to use . . . “), suggest hiring someone with more of a tech background and accepting applications electronically. Or point one – if he complains about lack of diversity in the group of people who apply for positions there.

      But if they seem to be doing well in both of those areas, it might not be worth mentioning. There’s another subtext to it – they want a smaller group of applicants, people who were interested enough to mail in a resume or show up in person. From that angle, I find it appealing.

    5. LGC*

      …does your dad work at the Gumption Factory?!

      (I know some fields are just like that, but I don’t think most office work is like that anymore.

      I’d say something like, “Dad, I think you should suggest that your company get an email address for job listings. The vast majority of people apply to jobs online, and your company might be missing out on good candidates by making them mail their resume or hand it in person.”

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Small towns, small firms they’re like this. Roll on up, look for that Help Wanted sign, come on in and throw on an apron!

      2. WellRed*

        In the other hand, this weeds out getting lots of applications from recent grads wanting to get hired as the CEO.

  200. GG*

    Mostly looking for some commiseration / sympathy here! I work for an NGO that is generally time- and brain power-intensive, we work on intense issues and the work is often fast-paced and project-based (consultancy style). Over the years I’ve definitely put in my share of long days, late nights, weekend work and spend a lot of time thinking about work (or at least the issues I work on) after “work hours.”

    Basically I’m overly justifying the fact that – I’m just starting my second trimester (first pregnancy) AND am at a bit of a lull in my work (I’m starting a new role soon with the new one not quite picking up yet, and slow points are coinciding on all my projects) so I’m just… not working hard? I’m not missing deadlines, I’m getting done what needs to be done, but rather than working 45 or 50 hours I’m doing more like 35, I have spent a lot of time lately taking calls in between naps and eating (I work from home about half the time). I’ve been sick and pregnancy tired lately, and am just giving into it…. I’m feeling a lot of guilt because this is the slow time at work I always wish for so that I could do thinking, reading, planning, strategizing, I could be preparing to kill it in my new role, taking initiative on extra stuff, spending time on my quieter projects to improve them when they pick up again. I just can’t bring myself to do it.

    Anyone else??

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      ENJOY THE LULL. This is the slow time that lets you do the very hard physical work of making a new person out of your body. When we were preparing for our child to be born, I dropped all my hobbies and side gigs because getting ready to be a parent is a full-time job, and I wasn’t the one gestating! Thinking, reading, planning, strategizing, taking initiative, and nurturing those quieter projects can all happen later—maybe when you’ve got a newborn (I read so many books during the endless newborn feedings), maybe when your parental leave is over and someone else takes over the bulk of the childcare (if that’s your plan). Right now, it’s okay to be where you are, sick and tired and doing something immensely taxing and also, if you are like me, researching pediatricians and touring daycare centers and ordering postpartum supplies and scrolling endlessly through Pinterest looking at other people’s enormous, immaculate, professionally styled nurseries while fully aware that your child’s room will never in a million years look like that.

      It’s okay for pregnancy and pre-parenting to be your job right now. No guilt. You are 100% allowed.

    2. YetAnotherUsername*

      I think this warrants repeating: Enjoy the lull.

      When you have a young child it’s hard to give 100% at work and 100% at home, so use this to get some practice at being “good enough”

  201. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

    Thanks to The Man, Becky Lynch for suggesting last week that I reach out to HR about the company doing some kind of diversity training. They responded very positively with a detailed list of actions they’ll take, including putting information in the employee handbook and including it in the annual anti-harassment training. So that’s something, at least.

    In the meantime, my boss misgendered me in email. Four times in three weeks.

    Whatever HR is going to do, I hope they do it soon. I’m so tired of this. I mostly work from home and now I’m constantly anxious about what people say about me in the office—not worried about gossip, it’s not that kind of place, but wondering whether this is such a pervasive problem because I haven’t been there to correct people and so the wrong pronouns stay in circulation.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m glad that they responded well and now they better frigging get to doing it because action, action, action! Words are great but put them into action, immediately.

      I don’t recall exactly but did you mention if you correct them when they misgender you? You shouldn’t have to but you shouldn’t feel bad doing it either. Just like if someone calls me the wrong name, it’s perfectly acceptable to say “Actually my name is Becky.” So you can say “It’s not her, it’s his.” or whatever the nouns they’re messing up.

      1. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

        I do correct them, and the response is generally positive (sometimes with a side of self-flagellation). I don’t think they all correct one another when I’m not there, though.

      2. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

        For context, I use they/them pronouns. For the first seven years I was at the company, I used she/her. I didn’t (and don’t plan to) change my very feminine name, and my presentation is currently pretty feminine as well. If I were binary trans or had a presentation that other people thought of as “matching” my pronouns, I think it would be less of an issue, but it’s harder for people to get used to saying “they” about someone who has a name like “Cindy” and wears V-neck dresses. Still, they’ve had FIVE YEARS.

        I think most of my colleagues don’t even understand what nonbinary people are, and if they could grasp that and really adjust their concept of me to be “Cindy is not a man or a woman, Cindy is something else altogether,” they would be more likely to use the right words. I’m concerned that whatever HR does will be more about “practice saying they/them” and less about actual education. I guess we’ll see.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Aaaaaaaaah, yeah then I’m hoping that HR really does jump on the training and drives home pronouns here, since I think that is really where they’re tripping up.

          It’s breaking so many usually very inclusive minds to understand that “they/them” is a thing.

          I think it’s helpful that a lot of school aged kids are starting to get to put their pronouns out there with their name tags at times [at least in the areas I’m familiar with, so it will be a regional thing for awhile for sure].

          It stinks and I hope that your frustration will start to be less and less as people fix their stuff and retrain their minds.

          1. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

            Thank you. Your support means a lot to me. I never would have thought of taking it to HR at all—I just assumed that being openly trans means having to suffer through people being clueless and/or jerks—and it was a real surprise when they had such a thorough, positive response.

            I’m the only trans staffer, but there are trans contractors who work for us and we’ve had trans interns and job applicants, so we really do need to get on this as a company.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Sadly there are places where people are going to be able to openly be jerks and disregard your gender identity. BUT the good news is that things are changing [too slowly but changing], we don’t have laws right now to protect you, so it’s up to individual companies and their structures to protect us out of their desire to be healthy, decent, well operated entities.

              When you work for somewhere that’s going to show itself as an “inclusive” organization and really play up their love for diversity, which is how I read your situation originally, that’s why I had the feeling that HR would be of help. Especially since diversity training goes so much further than “Don’t discriminate. Don’t engage in sexual harassment. These things are illegal. We don’t like these things only because they’re illegal.”

              Most decent companies with a track record of caring about their organizations not being toxic wastelands of awful humans running around being horrible, will protect you for just about anything, despite it not being a “lawsuit liability”.

              Just like yeah, technically you can be an equal opportunity jerk as our lawyer likes to call it. Sure. I could let someone just walk around saying “You’re all stupid. You’re all fat! You’re all soooooooooooooooooo lazy.” to everyone in the company. But we don’t accept that kind of behavior. If someone just wanted to go around calling everyone Carl, sure, we could allow it and just laugh about it if we were a bunch of chuckleheads. But no, we wouldn’t want to put that kind of culture into swing.

              Many companies have cultures and atmospheres they really work to keep in line. So there are places that will protect you despite it not being required of them. Laws are put into place to fix the few jackholes out there that take full advantage of others but not necessarily because everyone is truly hateful and need to be kept in line by them.

              It’s good to be cautious as well and to “read the room” for things that don’t fall under the legal aspects of course but yeah, most of the time if you have a decent ran HR team they are there to protect their reputation and morale as a whole, not just the pocketbooks.

        2. Dasein9*

          I am binary trans, and it did take hormones (which I resisted for a very long time) before people were generally good about getting my pronouns right. But then, I was in a very toxic environment and harm was intended.

          You hit the nail right on the thumb when you say “I don’t think they all correct one another when I’m not there, though.” Thing is, cisgender people tend to default to listening to other cisgender people and taking their word on this kind of thing more than they listen to trans people. Weird and illogical, I know, but that does tend to be how it works.

          Can you enlist an ally to help with correcting folks? A lot of times, people are happy to help but don’t know how. You might want to provide a sample script, much as Alison does.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I hope as time goes on, you find the right cisgendered people out there. A lot of us do correct others who use the wrong pronouns if we hear it.

            But I also sat down with my parents after Caitlyn Jenner came out and talked to them through it on that level. So they have also been able to explain it to their friends as well. I corrected people all over the place when they would start bringing up Caitlyn’s transition and start trying to joke about it.

          2. Misgendered, Not Miss-Gendered*

            Ugh, I’m sorry people were awful to you. I hope you got out of there.

            “Hit the nail right on the thumb,” heh.

            There are a few people who are really good about it, but I’ve just moved departments and the new one mostly has people who can’t even remember my pronouns, let alone correct anyone else on them. My new boss is really struggling with it—he’s a good guy and I believe he’s sincerely trying, but I can’t count on him to lead by example. And I’m dealing more with executives now, which means more older people who are set in their ways. (Including, I’m sorry to say, some cis gay men who seem to think B and T are the lowercase letters.) All the people I’d trust to speak up are relatively young and new and would hesitate to correct the CEO or CFO. So I have to count on HR to do the HR thing, and hope it sticks.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Yeah, there has sadly always been a lot of “growing pains” in the community as it grows to you know, be even more inclusive.

              It’s part of human nature in the end, we’re a bunch of strange creatures who want to be with people “Just like us!” so we start our little off-shoots for safety and emotional sake. Only to sink face when the next round of “different” moves onto our block and wants to hangout.

              Lots of “You can’t sit with us” mentality within the community and I’m over here like “Yeah, you don’t want any of THOSE apples anyways.”

              The thing is with work spaces, we don’t get to “choose” and be exclusive because hi, it’s the real world not your special little sections you’ve cared out, y’all.

  202. Pennalynn Lott*

    I’m new to my job (starting my 4th month); I’m new to this field (just graduated in May with a I-went-back-to-school-and-got-this-shiny-new degree); I was put on a MASSIVE project on Day One, lead by a Sr Manager on my team (IT) and a Manager on another team (Operations). I’m the only staff person on the project.

    Sr Manager quit three weeks ago. Ops Manager only recently became a manager; prior to that he was staff, like me, and he currently doesn’t manage anyone. Turns out this project is 85% IT, so Ops Manager acknowledges that he doesn’t have a lot to contribute. I am 100% lost.

    Another Sr Manager from my team was assigned to the project, but she is also leading 5 other projects, three of which are mission- and time-critical. Meaning: She doesn’t have any time for me.

    I have been told by our Director and the Sr Manager to create a new project plan and a business process diagram. (I’ve already created a system architecture diagram that shows the flow of data in this project).

    So. . .
    (1) The data flow diagram is basically the business process diagram because this is a change-the-technology project, but the Director and Sr Manager don’t know this because they aren’t familiar with the project. I have no idea how to create a business process flow diagram when there aren’t any business processes that are affected. [There will be, later, when the technology changes are complete, but we’re not there yet and those processes aren’t part of this project.]

    (2) I have never even created a project plan for a simple, narrowly-focused project let alone one for a project that impacts the entire company and all of its systems. I keep telling Sr Manager I need help because I have no idea what I’m doing. I volunteered to come up to Corporate next week [oh, yeah, I’m remote] but the Director said we don’t have the budget. [We’re a global Fortune 50 company and it would cost <$1000 for hotel and mileage.] And yet I'm still being told to do Manager- and Sr Manager-level work.

    I'm going to end up creating dreck. They're going to tell me I got it wrong. I'm going to say, "Help me understand what 'right' looks like," and they're going to say, "Not this." [BTDT with other parts of this project.]

    I'm just frustrated and wondering if I should spend my own money to drive up to Corporate. It would cost ~$500 for the hotel and about $100 for gas and food. (No mileage reimbursement because it would be on my own). But I also have this nagging thought that my Director wants me to fail. [I wrote a little bit about him in another Open Thread.] I guess I just never expected to be so stressed and disillusioned so early in a new job. :-(

    1. WellRed*

      Don’t do it! If they wanted you to come to corporate, they’d make it happen. You risk being annoying and spending the $ to just sit around at Hq. Put that energy into job searching.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Don’t do it! Spend a weekend with ‘project mgmt for dummies’ or some equivalent book, to get the feel of what you need. Work with Ops Manager (OM) to set up the plan – you list out the tasks, estimate the time they’ll take, have OM drive them (setting up meetings, checking progress, finding resources, etc). Ask OM to figure out stakeholders, and educate them. Build a partnership with OM, and have them do the pushing with Director and Sr. Manager.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        Thanks, WellRed and Jules! I woke up this morning and was like, “Naahhhhh… my Director will see it as me thinking my ideas and plans are greater than his.”

        OM and I have a great relationship already, but since he reports to a different chain of command he has exactly zero influence on my Sr Mgr and Dir. But I’ve scheduled a 3-hour call with him on Tuesday. Maybe we can get things hammered out enough to at least show my management team that we made a good-faith effort.

  203. Ciela*

    Happy work anniversary to me!
    I hit my 20 year mark a week and a half ago, so today we had a nice lunch to celebrate.
    I got flowers, and very briefly was a little “eh”, but then I recalled that my male co-worker also got flowers for his milestone anniversary. Also a bonus check, and a really nice card that everyone signed. I think the best comment was “20 years? Damn! I’ve only been alive for 20 years.” That from my nephew :)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It makes me so happy that they give your male colleagues flowers too.

      Also happy anniversary!

  204. Goldy*

    Just curious: has anyone ever worked with a speech coach or therapist in regards to career issues?

    I have terrible, terrible anxiety in meetings. I hate to speak up and I feel like everything I say is stupid or that people pause and stare at me in a strange way after I do talk. A good friend and former colleague and I were talking about this just this week, and he has the very same thing.

    It’s not that either of us are inarticulate! We both feel that we kick butt at interviews — but when getting onsite, the dynamics and environment (and politics) can be intimidating, and being in a meeting is very different than an interview when the attention is on you and you’re meant to fully explain everything.

    In contrast, I’ve been in meetings where I felt intimidated speaking up and worried that my colleagues would think everything I said was lame. Honestly, I have found myself either rambling (ugh) or sometimes even stuttering because of nerves….I do suspect that my mouth might gap open and closed like a goldfish.

    Since my friend has the same thing I know it *can’t* be just me. How do you approach meeting or presentation anxiety once you actually have the job?

    1. Anono-me*

      I think it is worth exploring. Even one or two meetings may help. You may also find it helpful to take a comedy improv or comedy for business class.

      I was attending a social event shortly after becoming aware of an issue involving my speaking voice. There, I met a woman who taught comedy to public speakers. I asked her if she could recommend someone specializing in my issue. She told me just to do X when speaking and it would solve 99% of my problem. She was right

    2. Close Bracket*

      Have you considered Toast Masters? Speech coaches and therapists are good moves, but they can’t give you the opportunity to speak in front of an audience.

  205. Warm Weighty Wrists*

    I’m trying to figure out if I can help my friend, or if this is a situation where I should just let it go. This friend has been very unhappy at work for a long time (for good reasons) and has been looking for work, but hasn’t been successful. I get that is so disheartening and difficult, but based on things they have said recently their work has started to suffer, and their company has started taking actions that really sound like documentation to begin the process to fire them. They don’t seem to realize this, or maybe they’re in denial, or maybe I’m wrong, but I’m concerned.
    Is there any way I can help my friend? Has anybody gotten out of a bad work situation with advice/help from a friend, and if so what did that person do/say? Perhaps I should just stay out of it, but I hate to see them suffering, and to think that it could get worse soon.

    1. Mama Bear*

      I would offer to look at their resume and sample cover letters and role play interviewing with them. It’s hard to say from here if they don’t interview well, there’s a typo in the resume, or they need a new interview wardrobe. I’d encourage them to step up the job hunt if you think they’re on their way out. I would even gently say that to them – you need to do this because those are usually steps companies take if the employee is in trouble. Your friend might do best to get out before being fired. However, there is a point where it’s on them. You can’t job hunt for them, interview for them, etc. If they refuse to take action for themselves, step back.

      1. valentine*

        You may have done all you can. Maybe they need the external push and/or they want you in a supportive, not advisory, capacity.

  206. Moving Up, Hopefully?*

    What’s the expectation when applying internally? I’m in a customer support role and recently applied for an account management position. Should I talk to HR first? Contact the person who would potentially be my new boss? Wait until someone reaches out to me first? I put in the application on Tuesday so I don’t want to be too hasty, but I’m not sure what the proper etiquette is.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      If you think your supervisor will support the move, I’d talk to them first. Part of their job as your manager is (or should be) to help you advance at the company.

      You can also go to anyone you know on the account management team and ask for advice, especially if they similarly moved up from customer support.

      1. Moving Up, Hopefully?*

        Thanks! I’ve kind of done both of those things already. I talked to my manager and he’s very supportive. He said he would put in a good word for me, but I don’t know if he meant he would take the initiative or wait until the AM supervisor reaches out to him.

        I let a couple of the account managers know I’m applying but I don’t know if they’ve spoken to their supervisor on my behalf. But I can definitely ask them how they approached it!

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Tell your supervisor if you get an interview, because if you do, they’ll find out anyway. Beyond that, I don’t think there is any other etiquette on that.

    3. LQ*

      Generally here (government) it’s fairly structured. You applied and wait just like every other job.

      BUT if you happen to know the hiring manager you could have a conversation with them and let them know you applied. If you can/should do this varies by company. I’d encourage you to ask someone you know who has been promoted from within. (I’d absolutely talk through expectations with nearly anyone who asked.)

  207. Anon Librarian*

    I’m on Long Island. Trying to work from home and my dog is freaking out about the weather. He keeps whining to ask for another walk, but then he gets scared of the wind and rain and doesn’t do his business. I think he’ll eventually get tired and go to sleep.

    I’m in the midst of prep time. Working on projects. Battling anxiety and the urge to procrastinate accordingly. But things are going well right now. I just need to focus a bit.

  208. Sekhmet*

    Hey all! I’d like your thoughts on millennial stereotype comments by my partner’s boss.

    Hurricane Dorian passed over my town today and we’re mostly unscathed, thankfully. I work from home so it wasn’t a problem, but my partner works in an office. During some hurricane talks yesterday, my partner’s boss made an off-hand comment that the team was being “soft”, and that he’s not surprised a bunch of millennials can’t handle a “simple storm”. The worst that would happen is they’d get wet getting to the car, he said.

    My partner and his co-workers talked separately, and were all perplexed by their boss’ comment. Before the end of the day, their Grandboss recommended that everyone take home their laptops so they could work from home if they had power.

    While conditions weren’t as dire as projected, it was still pretty dangerous to drive around during the height of the storm with downed trees, heavy wind, flooding in some areas. We had power at home so my partner checks in at his normal time, and his boss sends the group an instant message, “Glad to see you all crawled out of your safe spaces and made it to work. I’m in the office, everything’s fine.” Nobody responded, but it really ticked off my partner, who typically doesn’t get rattled by this stuff. He’s angry that his boss made him feel guilty for prioritizing the safety of himself and his family over working from the office.

    He said his boss normally isn’t this way, so his comments were really confusing. Someone else on the team made a comment about the hurricane a little while later, and his boss sent an Urban Dictionary definition for “snowflake” in the chat, as a reply.

    My partner feels this was pretty toxic behavior, but doesn’t know what can be done about it, and doesn’t think the higher-ups will care. What’s your thoughts, AAM folks? The company was recently bought out and the culture is changing, and partner thinks boss may be affected by that. It was formerly VERY conservative with a heavy Christian-based culture, but the new owner does not believe religion belongs in businesses, so he’s stripped that identity from all branding and internal culture. Partner is (quietly) atheist, but doesn’t believe this has anything to do with the treatment today.

    1. Anon Librarian*

      Well, yeah, he’s being ageist. He’s also making light of a storm that just caused catastrophic damage and probably the loss of many lives. He’s being disrespectful to the people who were affected by it, both living and deceased. He’s also being negative about reasonable safety measures which, I assume, were officially recommended by the authorities there. So he’s really off in a lot of ways.

      The sudden change is weird. I have no idea what to suggest. But I would also be bothered by this.

    2. Grrr*

      OMG, this enrages me. My husband was in Mississippi when Hurricane Katrina came through. Hurricanes are dangerous! People die and get injured! Cars can be swept away, trees can fall on houses, power can go down for days / weeks – it is not a good situation to be in at all. It is way better to be safe and keep your family safe than to “heroically” drive yourself to a job which does not involve life or death and can be done from home, thus clogging up the roads for emergency vehicles and potentially needing to be rescued if something bad does happen. The boss is being a complete ass.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      He’s actively encouraging his staff to engage in unsafe behavior, despite their grand-boss clearly accepting it is a necessity to take their laptops home to opt for WFH. What a complete jackass. I’m glad it’s been bought out and turning into something different, it sounds like a place that would oust a boss for trying to belittle his employees and shove them into doing things they’re not comfortable safety wise.

      Also IDK what the religion aspect would have to do with it either way. Unless the boss is just feeling bruised by the “changes” that are taking place and is lashing out due to that. I’ve worked for lots of religious folks over the years and they are the most cautious people, caring people in the world. They would never say someone was “Soft” or some other nonsense about snowflakes because people didn’t drive in during a frigging hurricane.

      It’s a hurricane. Not a rain storm. There are winds and wreckage everywhere, even when it’s a tropical storm, ffs. No. Just no.

      I don’t know, if my boss was being a bully and ever sending me ANYTHING from Urban Dictionary [which is hilarious, since that’s a younger user base,bless his heart]. I would run it up the chain.

      Not to “complain” but to say that it’s unfortunate that this behavior is happening, that you’re being ‘Teased” about the fact that you don’t want to drive in bad weather. Is this something the company wants to project to their employees, that they don’t think safety is very important and that being in the office is so much more important than following the directions of the governments these days. Most of the time places have warnings out for these things saying “Don’t drive unless it’s necessary.” so…there’s that angle.

    4. Homo neanderthalensis*

      Your partner needs to bring these IMs to the grandboss. That sort of behavior is straight up shitty and cruel. In any sane business this sort of thing, berating workers for staying home DURING A NATIONAL NATURAL DISASTER is the sort of thing people get fired over.

    5. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      As someone who grew up in a hurricane-prone town….HAHAHAHA. I would love to see your boss one day get stuck in a hurricane because he underestimated it. The worst hurricanes were the ones that were unexpected and no one prepared for. He is just being an ignorant asshole.

      1. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

        Although something makes me think this isn’t REALLY about the hurricane. He’s bitter and needs something to beat you guys over the head with.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Yes this – that ‘snowflake’ comment especially.

          It sounds like your boss is uncomfortable with the changes going on around him, and lashing out. He needs someone with authority over him to sit down and ask what’s up, and remind him that his great team of dedicated employees deserve support, not sneering. If the mgr doesn’t feel up to giving that support right now, then what can be done to help him make the adjustment?

          1. Anon Librarian*

            Or maybe he’s planning on leaving – he’s already found another job or he has reason to believe he’s going to be let go. I’ve seen people behave this way under those kinds of circumstances.

    6. Clisby*

      Your partner’s boss sounds like a fool.

      We waited out the storm here in Charleston, SC, but my husband didn’t even think about going in to work – he worked from home. Most of his colleagues evacuated, and none of the bosses gave them any grief about it. (Sure, get out there and drive through standing water when power lines are down and stressed-out trees are just waiting to topple over from the waterlogged ground. What could go wrong?)

  209. FosterMom*

    So, I had an experience today that I was really irritated with earlier but now I see the humor in the situation. For background, I work in education, but I am not a teacher. Every year, around this time, I and everyone else in my position is required to give a specific presentation to our schools. This year, we have to give it by October 31st. This morning when I got to work, I saw that my supervisor had emailed us all calendar invites with the due date listed.The only problem was that it created an appointment on all of our calendars every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 9 AM from now until October 31. So I emailed thinking surely this was a mistake. So my supervisor emailed all of us back that it was to remind us of the presentation due date and that she was changing it to only show up on Mondays (!)

    I have half a mind to decline it so that I don’t have time blocked out on my calendar when I’m actually free, but I don’t want to seem disrespectful.

    1. university minion*

      If you’re using Outlook, you can accept the invite, but change your status for that appointment to “Free”. Go to your calendar, click on the meeting, then click on the status box on the toolbar.

      1. FosterMom*

        Thanks! I think I actually knew that, but I was so befuddled and irritated by the fact that she thought we needed to be reminded 3 times a week, that I didn’t think of it!

    2. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      My managers sent reminders on Outlook this way as well. However, they don’t expect us to “accept” them so that they don’t block time off our calendars. You can also accept as “tentative” to acknowledge receipt, but the time slot still remains open on your calendar.

  210. Aggretsuko*

    Here’s a dumb question: I have a crush on a friend of mine (Tadano? Hah), which is pretty much mutual but he’s said he’s not ready to date. Okay, fine, so we’re keeping it platonic and I am trying to not pay him much attention outside of group hangouts so I’m not Too Much or scare him off or whatever. Trying not to text him outside of group hangs, etc. I’m being a Good Girl, you know? But I just saw a contract job listing for the field he got a degree in, which he doesn’t work in for a day job but does do some freelancing. I am unclear as to whether or not he’d actually qualify for it because I work at an org that wants you to have 100% of the requirements. I am debating whether or not to send it to him or not.

    I have no idea if I’d send it if this crush thing wasn’t an issue and he was just a platonic friend, so I can’t use that as a guideline either! I usually think anyone trying to send me job listings has no effing idea what I do for work and find it slightly annoying if anyone does, and I definitely have no clue on his tech creds other than “it involves cameras.” I don’t think he’s trying to job hunt outside of the family business he works in anyway and this is like a yearlong full time contract thing, so not a permanent job.

    What do you think? Send or not?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Don’t send it. He’s not job hunting, you don’t know if he’s well matched with it, it’s often annoying when people send job ads, and it sounds like it might be a symptom of “thinking about this person”-itis.

  211. IrishEm*

    I’m having a happysad this week. I have horrible flare-pain that is making me miserable, and I’m having horrible flashbacks to being let o from my last job at the end of my probation for being a bit shit, with my current job’s probation-ending meeting upcoming on Mon. I’m 90% confident I’ll be kept on, but I was a lot more confident in the last place than here, despite having six more months and having made great strides in my ability to do my job.

    Then I got a lovely compliment sent out from a team of colleagues who I have so much respect for, that went to my manager and was passed on to the whole department, and I almost wept from getting such positive feedback from such awesome, supportive people. And my manager is so supportive and encouraged me to go into do some shadowing in the Soc Med department, and any time I support the newbies he makes sure I keep a copy of it in a cv folder in outlook, and I just, I never had a job with such encouragement and support.

    I’m going to go cry about that lovely compliment and try to get my brain to accept the positive reinforcement in the spirit intended. I just wanted to vent a little. And maybe celebrate a little. Hopefully I’ll get good news on Mon about passing my probation, I really hope today wasn’t a setup of a goodbye.

  212. FD*

    Small thing, but it makes me happy. I’ve been working with a property management startup for about a year and a half and we’re getting to the point where we can start investing in a few softwares and other things to make life easier. We just pulled the trigger on a software to do move-in/move out inspections, and it looks like it’s going to be SUCH a big improvement over how we were doing it (paper + cell phone photos…not great).

    It’s good to be able to look at your work and go “Hey, because we’ve been working our a**es off the last year and a half, we can afford to buy this thing!”

  213. CMB*

    I’m someone who just graduated college and I’ve been at my first full-time job in a completely new area for about a month and a half. It’s going great, other than I really don’t have any friends in the area (though I’m working on that – I’m joining a bunch of groups next week). The problem I have is making friends with my co-workers. There are two other people full time that are around my age, one of whom I share an office with, so I’m somewhat comfortable with him, but the other one works at the other end of the office and I feel like I barely know him, since he’s often busy when I go to lunch with my officemate and the interns. How do I broach the idea of hanging out outside of work time with these folks? Any ideas of stuff I can suggest?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ask them if they’re up for happy hour drinks after work, that’s usually the best option to start out. Then if you do hit it off with happy hours, you can do other things down the road. But the slow start really is grabbing drinks and apps. If they’re not drinkers, just be all “The place across the street has great lemonades/iced tea”.

  214. LadyK*

    I work in computer science as a manager consultant in Silicon Valley. Something I realized recently that I simply cannot handle and just grinds my gears is how little people don’t seem to think towards others. It feels so freaking rude, and I need help figuring out how to not let it bother me so much.

    I have a problem getting people to show up on time for my meetings. They show up even 15 min late without a “running late!” message. I have them setting up a presentation to help *them*. I send an invite, and even a reminder on slack “hey, don’t forget tomorrow is the presentation dry run you wanted feedback on!”. Lo and behold they didn’t even have slides.

    Today was the last straw. I went on a client site, and we sent them 4 different emails and calls saying I’m en route. Yet, despite all this, they missed a badge letter and didn’t have a spot for us. For. Three. Days. In addition, they kind of shrugged when we asked “what can we do to on board?”. No documentation, no time slices to meet, no “talk to x person”, no one across 20 teams thought “Oh hey, someone should sit down and tell them what they’re building”. I am so tired of having to beg *you* to explain why you begged *me* to be here. I just feel unwelcomed, unconsidered, and unwanted.

    When someone joins my team, I set up a knowledge transfer session, give them some documentation, even a welcome lunch. I don’t expect all of this for me, but man I feel like chopped liver.

    I know I need to suck it up and get over it, but it seems like I’m the only one who feels rejected. I need help. Any tips on how to take this “personal offense” away? It’s clearly something I need to get over, but all I feel is offended.

    1. Spicy takes*

      From someone else who does consulting…I think it might help to reframe it as you’re the SME and not the other way around. If a client wants to waste my time and not do any prep work that’s fine and dandy for me as it means I get to bill more hours and you bet your bottom dollar I’m billing for everything.

    2. Layoff Laments*

      You have a commiseration partner here! I, too, have been worn down by this behavior – being asked to join a project because my services are needed, but when I get there, nobody seems to have time for me or knows what to tell me. I feel like I’m begging for information, which seems crazy because they’re the ones who asked me to be there. It’s frustrating and demoralizing! I’m like you – I like to onboard people whom I’ve invited to a project.

      Spicy takes’ strategy is one I use as well – if they are not in a hurry, then I am not in a hurry. I also noticed a trend that the people who asked me to come didn’t properly introduce my role and why I’m there, so the people who are actually working with me don’t know what to do. Or they are not ready for me yet, but don’t realize it because they’re not used to working with my type of role.

      If I’m understanding correctly, it sounds like your role is improving management work… it makes me wonder if the folks you are trying to assist are dragging their feet because they don’t want to actually do the hard work (dry runs, for example). They are avoiding the work itself, not you and sometimes subconsciously? That’s one of my strategies as well – I know the types of projects I work on are the ones that fall off priority lists pretty quickly for busy people, and I know it’s not me personally, just the nature of the work.

      I hope that helps! Best of luck. I sometimes get assigned to a rare gem of a person who totally gets what onboarding means and is great to work with – they provide information, know how to review things, and the projects get done. They are the ones that keep me going.

  215. Asa*

    I want to volunteer at a local art gallery and their application form includes a section that says “List Any Limitations You Have.” I have a number of health conditions and some disabilities, any one of which could be a limitation depending on the work, but I can still do a lot of things with and without minor accommodations. Since I don’t know what kind of work they have volunteers perform (I assume it’s assigned with their limitations in mind), I don’t know how to answer the question honestly without giving them my entire medical profile. I’m also concerned about discrimination. How should I fill out that part of the form?

    1. Abraxan Horses*

      That seems like a bizarre wording to me. I can’t tell if they’re looking for something like “I’m in a wheel chair so I need access to an elevator/wheelchair ramp” or something more like “I don’t drive so I can only volunteer until 9 when the last bus runs”. To be honest, I’d probably just leave it blank and maybe ask about it later in the process. I think most reasonable people would understand if you just explained you were confused by the wording and wanted to discuss that in person, especially since it’s a volunteer position. Alternatively, if you do have any super easy to explain limitations (e.g. can’t lift over 30 lbs due to a medical issue) you could list those and just deal with any others that may come up if and when they do.

    2. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      I agree the wording is weird. They should instead include a clause that ask you to confirm that you will be able to perform certain tasks, like “I will be able to carry out the following tasks: lifting moderately heavy objects, etc.” And you should also be able to ask for any disability accomodations if you can in fact do the job.

    3. PantaloonsOnFire*

      If this is just the initial “declaration of interest” form, it doesn’t sound like they want a detailed medical history, or that this question is exclusively medical in nature. It sounds like they realize people have many different kinds of limitations (medical, logistical, technological, personality-based) that could influence the kind of volunteer work they are best suited for. I think they are intentionally making this broad, possibly to make sure people aren’t stuck doing work they can’t or don’t want to do. Maybe for one person it’s that they can never work Sundays. For another, they have little/no prior experience using a computer. For another, they need a job that doesn’t involve standing, etc. It sounds like you can be as vague or specific that you want, even a “Happy to discuss this in person!” And I highly doubt they’d just assign you to a job without discussing with you further anyway.

      Caveat: I don’t know what, if any, nondiscrimination rules apply to volunteers. Some orgs with lots of volunteers have a nondiscrimination policy specifically for volunteers, but it sounds like a local art gallery probably isn’t that thorough.

  216. RoadsLady*

    This may be more of a vent but… I’m frustrated with one of my benefits. More specifically, its process.

    It’s a decent-sized organization, yet I’m beginning to think I’m the only one using Benefit X. Last year I had to go through a backdoor way to use it because the company needed a certain number to register me in the computer, and HR (or anyone) did not know what this number was.

    This cycle, I receive a debit card from the company. No way of using said debit card because I can’t connect it to any accounts because again, HR doesn’t know the employee ID number.

    Sigh.

    1. WellRed*

      Escalate. This is ridiculous. Go to HR in owrson or to someone higher up in HR. Depending on the type if benefit, is there an outside mgt company adminstering it you could call? Rope in your manager if they could be helpful in advocating for you to be abke use part of your Compensation Package.

  217. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

    Taking any tips/advice/wisdom how to deal with 2 disctinct but simultaneous job searching pain points:

    1) I’m stuck working in a role I don’t want to be pigeon-holed in. While I’m waiting for my big break, I’m continuing to take small courses/trainings and do freelance work here and there to keep my wheels oiled and my resume relevant to the jobs I do want. I’m also going to networking events where possible. Is there anything else I should be doing? I really don’t know when I will get my next job.

    2) I keep making it to final round interviews and I KEEP NOT GETTING SELECTED. It’s driving me insane. There is ALWAYS some freaking person who “has more experience in this X area” or has like 1-2 years more experience total. Like, COME ON. I’m trying to think of some way I can frame my resume and interviews to make me stand out from other candidates. Has anyone been in this particular situation and broken out of it?

    1. CAA*

      Other than honing your resume and cover letter to make the best possible impression, there’s really nothing you can do to make yourself stand out over people with more experience. I know it’s frustrating to always come in second, but from the employer’s side, their goal is to hire the best possible candidate. When you do get rejected, one thing you can do is say that you’d be interested if they have an opening in the future. I did get a job offer once when their first choice bailed out after just a few months.

      1. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

        Most of the places I’ve interviewed with did not actually ask for references. Only the most recent one did, so maybe it’s still worth checking up on.

  218. Fergus*

    I know I’m late to the party here but maybe someone will have some thoughts.

    Over the past several years, I’ve noticed a distinct change in my workplace culture. We used to rarely have any meetings–it was a very much “get your work done” kind of environment without a lot of fluff and fat.

    Now–and I’ve just calculated–the number of meetings we have has quintupled. And there is a ton of stuff about internal “strategic goals” and endless meetings about the wording of mission statements, committees being formed to discuss how to form committees, internal presentations about “team accomplishments,” etc. My boss who previously would have rolled her eyes at stuff like this seems to now be excited to participate in these kinds of things.

    Deep down I wonder if really everyone thinks it is all as stupid as I think it is but no one feels like they can say so because they will seem to be negative or “not a team player”. I know a few close friends feel as I do.

    It is making me hate my job. I dread going there now because of all this, as I see it, pointless, useless BS. I am constantly being asked by my boss, “what do you think about [new piece of pointless, useless BS]” and I struggle to find something good to say about it because I don’t want to say it is stupid. So maybe I’m part of the problem.

    Has anyone ever really felt these kinds of things are helpful to a company? Am I really just being negative? I’ve always thought of myself as a dedicated employee who was happy to work hard to achieve high quality products, but now with all this stuff I feel like my soul dies a bit each day.

    1. CAA*

      It might be time to move on. Organizational culture does change as companies grow and get new leadership, and yours might just have turned into a place that doesn’t work for you any more.

    2. tamarack & fireweed*

      Let me offer a counterpoint – mostly just to help you try it out for size. Obviously I can’t have a valid judgement about your actual work culture.

      It is possible that the changes happened to remedy a problem. Just as there can be too much of what you call fluff around strategic planning and reflecting on how you do your work, there can also be too little. Organizations need strategies. Strategies need input. And companies that are entirely focussed on getting one’s work done and staying within the lines of the easiest path can do very badly in terms of diversity and effective policies, which will bite them in the long run. That is, you don’t want to be super-effective at getting your product shipped only to realize that you built the wrong product, because of how you staffed your product department; or to lose a stellar engineer because she was being harassed by a co-worker and you never bothered to implement effective conduct policies. (Not to mention that these things were also affecting actual and potential employees negatively.)

      Quite possibly, introducing these things may mean having a pendulum swing too far the other way. In which case there’s bound to be a backlash. It might take the form of complaints about having too many meetings, or ineffective meetings, and I’d start with the most ineffectual ones, like the committee about how to form committees, or maybe excessive time spent on self-congratulatory team activities. If you say quintupled does this mean it went from one a month to one every week, with one week having two? Or from two a week to two every day? That makes a difference.

      We inherently perceive changes for the worse more keenly than changes for the better, which results in a feeling that “things were better in the good old days”. It’s worth honestly interrogating the situation to figure out if there isn’t something you’re missing.

      But maybe it’s not that, and nothing useful is being accomplished at all. Or not enough. Maybe you’re dealing with an office morale zealot with very different ideas of what makes for a pleasant workplace. In which case yes, sometimes it’s time to move on.

    3. Jonathan L.*

      It wouldn’t hurt to polish your resume. Not to send you into a panic, but “strategy” meetings are often a precursor to layoffs.

    4. LGC*

      So how much of your time is taken up by meetings? And are these structured?

      You can suggest a little bit more structure to meetings you’re a part of, within reason. It sounds like a lot of your meetings are just…aimless or could be better handled via email.

      I do think meetings are useful within reason and if they’re run properly, even the “pointless” meetings you’re talking about. Although…is that a part of your job to be a part of those strategic meetings?

      1. Fergus*

        It isn’t really about my time, but more about the fact that I feel my morale beaten down by these meetings. Some of them are meetings where I am just meant to listen to other people talk about what they do (it has nothing to do with my own work whatsoever) or be called upon to share what I am doing to others who have no idea what I do (and I don’t see why they would or should care). Some of the meetings are meant to be “inspirational” such as where we talk about our values and how they fit into our mission statement. There’s a lot of time spent getting the wording of internal documents just right so that everyone feels inspired.

        If the meetings were about “how do we better serve our customer?” or “Can we make this task more efficent?” I would be totally on board. But they aren’t. It’s all internal, “inspirational” stuff. It feels like they want us all to be endlessly excited about our “mission” which honestly doesn’t matter at all to me, and the more they make me sit in a room talking about “the color of my confidence level” (SERIOUSLY A REAL THING THEY DID) the less I care about it, the worse my morale is, and the more I want to quit in spite of the excellent benefits and above-average pay.

        I realize this may make me seem like a slacker with a bad attitude, but I swear I’m not. I’ve always gotten glowing reviews and have an excellent reputation as a hard worker with a lot of initiative.

        1. tamarack & fireweed*

          I don’t think your morale suffering from meeting you don’t perceive as helpful to you makes you look like a *slacker*, particularly. Kinda on the contrary. Maybe a “not-a-teamplayer”, maybe a grump, but not someone who is lazy. If you have a get-shit-done reputation you could talk to your manager about the morale issue. A good manager will be interested in morale.

    5. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      Strategy meetings can be useful, but I don’t think it makes sense to force employees who don’t own part of the company to participate in them. Like, I’m here to get my work done and collect a paycheck while I search for my next job. I don’t have time to vote on our mission statement and stupid company colors, which seem to change every semester. (My company does this, too and it’s annoying.) Of course, they should keep these meetings open to employees who are interested, but it shouldn’t be a requirement.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Ugh Fergus! I also feel much as you do.

      “Deep down I wonder if really everyone thinks it is all as stupid as I think it is but no one feels like they can say so because they will seem to be negative or “not a team player”. I know a few close friends feel as I do.”
      >Yes I think most people think it’s a big giant load of BS but will never say so and will not back you up
      >if you say so. It’s an Emperor Has No Clothes mentality. Corporate America does not value dissent.

      My current place of work spends an inordinate amount of time making presentations for and to other internal departments within the company. I mean like HOURS and DAYS go into elaborate PowerPoints and spreadsheets for other departments. While sometimes this is a good and positive thing (reporting results, work collaborations, planning, etc.) a lot of it is really just explaining what you’re doing and having to justify it to a lot of people who haven’t a clue and honestly needn’t be concerned about it in the first place. If we spent half of that time and effort trying to actively get new business, the company would be in better shape… but instead we just talk about what should be done and nothing much GETS done. Have to say, I’ve never worked anywhere that did this to this extent. It’s quite frustrating.

  219. NY Trotter*

    Next year will be my first annual review I’ll be doing for my direct reports and the way the review process is set up is that people are ranked and then given their review (exceeds/meets/below expectations) based on that rank. The super shitty part is that you have to have equal split among the rankings, so 25% below expectations, 50% meets expectations, and 25% exceeds expectations – this means that even if you have 4 stellar employees, 1 of them will be ranked below expectations! It’s so frustrating and degrading and I’m not looking forward to telling someone who’s an awesome worker that they are below expectations. I’ve asked other managers about it and it’s not a decision our Director has made, but a corporate one.

    Any tips on how to handle that?

    1. CAA*

      Well, having to give 25% of the employees a below expectations rating is pretty extreme. It’s usually more like 10%. Also, typically if groups are that small, they should enforce the distribution from a higher level in the org, so that it applies across a group of 20 or 50 employees rather than a group of 4. You might ask if that’s a reasonable expectation, especially if you can look around and see more low performers on other teams who’d rank behind yours.

      If you really do have to give people low ratings that aren’t deserved, I’ve found the best thing to do is just tell them honestly that the rating is based on a comparison to their coworkers, similar to being graded on a curve in school. At least people generally understand how that works, even if they don’t like it. Anyone who’s a clear #4 and doesn’t see a way to pass the people who are ahead of him will end up leaving.

      Also, try not to get too enraged when the HR person stands up in front of the entire company and says that their performance reviews are “objective”.

    2. tamarack & fireweed*

      I would handle this by looking for a different job, and once I have one, being quite open about why I’m leaving.

      Everyone wants those teams of stellar employees, and if you are good at hiring and training, it isn’t unrealistic to have a high-performing team… in which the struggling/mediocre members are pulled upwards. Your employer’s system incentivizes managers to push even a slightly questionable employee, or someone going through a tough time, downwards… to have someone they can feel good about rating in the bottom quartile.

    3. Kathenus*

      I know you may only have so much power in the organization, but use whatever you do have to push back on this. Maybe frame is as the organization’s goal would be to have all stellar employees, correct? And if they do start achieving that goal, rating 25% of them as below expectations will literally work directly against the goal of having a great workforce by demoralizing, demotivating, and eventually losing good employees if they aren’t being rated fairly to their own performance but instead having to fit an arbitrary breakdown within the rankings. It sucks, I’m sorry. Good luck trying to effect change.

      1. NY Trotter*

        Oh I’ve thought about it! Just not sure how. I work for a fortune 100 company so it wouldn’t be easy to push back on something like this.

    4. LGC*

      Oh my God I thought my org’s review process was hot garbage. Can you arrange for a ransomware worm to encrypt your review system’s precious files?

      (Don’t actually do this. But if you DO do this and I end up on your jury, I would not convict you.)

      And it actually works the other way as well – if you have four terrible employees, one of them is going to “exceed expectations.”

      Anyway. Yes, you can definitely push back if it’s not too late. If you’re already getting started…are there comments you can write? If they’re generally all the same, can you give them the same rank?

  220. NicoleK*

    Just needed to vent. I work closely with two other people. Coworker 1 is great at 3-4 things/tasks, but is otherwise incompetent. Coworker 2 doesn’t even do the bare minimum. I’ve spoken to our boss about my concerns. Boss’s response to my concerns was to divide up our tasks among the three of us. That happened a month ago, and not much has changed. Ugh.

    1. Kathenus*

      I know you’re venting and didn’t ask for advice, but I’ll offer some anyway. There’s a silver lining here, that the tasks are divided up. Maybe your boss is giving them some rope. So do your third and don’t fill in helping with theirs if they don’t do them or do them poorly. Let them fail or succeed on their own merits, and your boss deal with any repercussions to the business if work isn’t done or isn’t done well. Do yours and do it well and let the boss handle everything else.

  221. Sheldon Cooper*

    I’m a manager and I have a mix of hourly non-exempt and salaried exempt employees. One of my hourly employees applied for a salaried position that I have posted. He’s indicated that one of his main goals is to be salaried. I’m concerned that he’s looking at the pros of being salaried and ignoring the cons (like that yes, you can leave a bit early without tracking your time, but you may also be working evenings other times to make up for it – I’m pretty sure that it doesn’t average out to be a net benefit). Any words of advice?

    1. Nacho*

      If you’re his manager, you’re in a position to talk to him about it, maybe during his next 1:1. Who knows, maybe he feels that the benefits outweigh the downsides.

    2. Auntie Social*

      You could tell him the number of hours you’re working, when you’ve had to stay late or come in because of [insert crisis here]. Then ask why he wants to be salaried, what does he envision?

    3. Approval is optional*

      The man is presumably a competent adult, so I don’t think it’s your place to do anything. TBH it strikes me as a little patronising to assume he isn’t capable of weighing up pros and cons of different work situations.

    4. LGC*

      Is one of his main goals to be salaried…or is it really to have a salaried position?

      Generally, salaries are for jobs with more latitude and discretion. So my first thought is that he just stated his goals imperfectly.

      On that note: what are the expectations for salaried positions in terms of time? If everyone is expected to put in 40 hours, then there’s not much of a trade-off. But if it’s a 50 hour job, then yeah, he’s coming out ahead staying hourly. (Even if the salary is something like 50% higher to cover for no OT and consuming way more free time.)

  222. Interviewpanel*

    Has anyone been in the position on a job panel that your boss is trying too hard to find the perfect candidate and is being too cautious to hire. I’m not saying we should just hire anyone because we’re desperate, but is there a line?

    1. Layoff Laments*

      I can tell you where we drew the line for a hiring process, but our situations are slightly different. Hopefully it still provides the perspective you’re seeking!

      The role we were hiring for was an entry level admin. It was not my boss, but rather my teammate also on the panel who was looking for the perfect candidate. Understandable, as she would be the one to work with this role most closely and my teammate had been burned before. We did two rounds of interviewing candidates over a 3-month period. Finally, my boss said we’ve been taking too long, and since it was my boss doing all the management of the process, we made a decision. At that time, the role had been vacant for about 8 months. So these were all factors that went into it. I agreed with my boss that we needed to make a decision, but I’m not sure what I’d do in your position if she hadn’t agreed. We had a good relationship, so I think we could have talked about it. Not sure if I would have been able to change her mind though. Good luck!

  223. To suggest or not to suggest*

    I don’t know how to tell my supervisor I don’t like the idea of how to word things to customers. For context, I am a somewhat young woman in a male dominated industry that’s been making waves lately with rampant sexism (though thankfully I haven’t experienced that here). I work customer support and help via chats (all text based) with general and technical difficulties. Without fail, if it’s a technical issue, half the time the customer will either outright refuse to do the steps or question everything about it. To be fair, my male coworkers also deal with this to a degree, but it feels like most times this happens more to female agents more than the males.

    The reason I bring this all up is because I operate on a very efficient mindset: my goal is to whisk the customer in, be polite but brief, get their problem fixed as quickly as possible, and send them on their way, and their reviews indicate a lot of them love how fast and easy I make it for them. Sometimes I have to do a step on my end so I’ll say things after a customer confirmed something such as “Great, one second as I check here” or “Ok thanks, one moment” or just “Ok, one sec” etc. My supervisor has made small notes in the past regarding this, but lately he’s been more so about it, taking some points off my review because I sound like I’m giving an order rather than a suggestion like how I should use “please” like “Ok thanks, please hold one moment” or “Please wait while I check”, etc. In my head this works occasionally, but my mind wants to rebut and go “and what if the player says they don’t want to wait?” essentially they’re going to have to wait as there’s nothing else they need to do on their end while I check on my side regarding their issue so it’s really not a suggestion unless the player just wants to leave chat instead. I also feel that, as a female agent, this diminishes more of my authority with the more annoying customers who already question every step I suggest with my mind going “that was not a suggestion, do the steps or we can’t assist you further” (which is actually true for several issues and backed up by our supervisors).

    I guess I’m trying to figure out, should I just continue what I’m doing and take the minor hit to my reviews each month (generally speaking, everything else I do well in for the most part so overall it doesn’t affect my score much) or try to appease my supervisor by using “suggestions” rather than “orders”? Or is there some middle ground/way to broach this with him from my viewpoint that being a female agent, this feels like it diminishes some of my authority with stubborn customers?

    1. Gina*

      I think your basic premise is flawed. If saying please diminishes your authority, your authority isn’t worth much. You can have plenty of aithority and still manage to be polite. And you can give instructions politely. Adding please doesn’t magically transform your instructions into a mild suggestion that they could maybe do this but only if they don’t mind.

      I’m a teacher. I give instructions all day long. I always say please and thank you, but my students never mistake my instructions for an optional request. Tone is important, as is clarity and wording.

      “OK, please wait one moment” is no less inherently authoritative than “OK thanks, one moment”. If you are finding that customers repect you less because you are female, that’s an issue. But it’s not one solved by refusing to say please.

      1. To suggest or not to suggest*

        Thanks! LGC below actually hit the nail on the head I think my supervisor was actually trying to make, which is to try and soften the langage rather than make it as a suggestion vs order (as I keep forgetting it’s hard to hear one’s tone in text based communications).

    2. LGC*

      To use the “ask culture vs guess culture” thing, I think he’s asking you to say “please” to soften your language – not to reframe it as a question.

      (Funny enough, I actually had similar issues with some of Alison’s famous scripts! I’ve thought about it and after obsessively listening to her podcast (RIP)…the issue is that being very direct works for her because she has a fairly feminine voice, but I hear myself (a really tall man) saying it and it does come out more harshly. So it’s not that it’s wrong, it’s that it’s not as good a fit for me. Hopefully that makes sense.)

      I’d give it a shot on a couple of calls, because HE’S making a suggestion. Or, at least explain your reservations. I feel like if you keep doing what you’re doing without acknowledging it, that can come across as insubordination (which is a term I hate with the fire of a thousand suns, but might apply here). I’d also look to see if there really IS a problem with your current language – are customers routinely offended by you not saying “please?” Do you have a male peer that uses similar language to you, and has it been brought up as an issue to him?

      1. To suggest or not to suggest*

        Ah that makes more sense and think that’s what my supervisor was trying to get at but worded differently (trying to soften the tone) as I keep forgetting one can’t hear my tone/voice in text based chats. That I can definitely work with now that I realize that’s what he’s actually aiming for, thanks!

        As a side note, agents’ communication with customers are a bit isolated so there’s no real way for me to check without just asking my male coworkers if they use softer tones or not and if they get doced points (or not). That said, I generally have very high customer reviews and the ones that give low reviews are typically just complaints about the company or mad we couldn’t help them with an issue (usually because they refused to do the next steps) so as far as I know, no customer has been offended by my conversation with them (for context, I generally do say thanks, use emojis, joke with them, etc. it’s just that one sticking point with my supervisor about saying “please wait” when it comes up in a chat).

        1. LGC*

          Ah, I assumed this was over the phone!

          So it actually sounds like you’re doing fine for the most part. I’m not THAT familiar with customer service, but unless saying “please” is a stylistic thing with your company, it might be just a difference of opinion. Still give his way a try, but it sounds like there isn’t anything obviously wrong with what you’re doing.

          1. CM*

            Agree.

            As a woman who used to work in tech support and deal with the dudes who didn’t follow my instructions or argued about every single one, I feel for you, OP.

            Also, my experience in call centers was that the people doing monitors kind of turned it into a little industry where they were always making up new stuff to take off points for, because they were bored, or because they got in trouble if they didn’t seem to scrutinize people enough. So, if you’re doing super well in general, it’s possible that this “please” thing is them making a mountain out of a molehill because there’s nothing else to find fault with.

            1. To suggest or not to suggest*

              Thanks! And ugh, tell me about it. I’ll be glad once I move out of any customer based job. Most of the customers are fine but the handful that are jerks are just not worth the low pay.

              I have actually been getting the feeling that’s exactly what it is too: my supervisor needs to nitpick something and because my scores are generally high, this is the thing he’s decided to latch onto. Oh well, I’ll work it in and see if he has something else to complain about next month :)

    3. YetAnotherUsername*

      Saying please is a social nicety. It’s not literally giving someone the option to say no. It doesn’t reduce your authority in the slightest.

      1. To suggest or not to suggest*

        Thanks! LGC pointed out what I think my supervisor was actually trying to say (use please to soften my tone as it’s hard to hear one’s tone in text based chats) rather than a literal suggestion to the customer.

    4. Nacho*

      I work customer service and everybody, male and female, has to you the line “would you mind if I put you on a brief hold?” I’ve had especially rude customers tell me they did mind, at which point I told them that I needed to put them on hold to help them and we can’t continue the call until we do. And then we wait until they tell me I can put them on hold, because I’m getting paid to do this and they can go to hell for all I care.

      It’s like when you ask them “how’s your day?” Both parties understand this is a social nicety for which the only correct answer is “good”, and not an actual invitation to tell me how crappy your day’s been going.

  224. Jonathan L.*

    Can companies “fine” employees for violating policies?

    A long time ago at a previous job, there was a sign saying that moving to another cubicle without the approval of the Facilities team would result in a $1,000 fine. But how would they actually fine an employee? Would the employee be given a deadline to pay the fine or risk losing their job? Or would HR simply deduct it from their salary?

    It’s my understanding that companies can only legally dock salaries under very specific circumstances. Would an unapproved self-move be considered one of them?

    1. valentine*

      Maybe the fine was to the business unit’s budget. So “Make your people stay put” instead of “Stay put, cog.”

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Employers may “dock” employees pay in certain instances, and it is easier if they are hourly employees (example: being late or not calling in to work). With salary employees, docking wages is much more complicated, as doing so may create unauthorized payroll deductions or push them into hourly status if their wage falls too low because of the punishment. With mistakes (example: a short cash register) it may vary by state on whether or not you can be docked, and there are generally limits and the employee needs to sign that they understand the deduction.

      From SHRM
      Exempt employees usually are paid salaries, and any reduction to those salaries must comply with the FLSA regulations—otherwise, the employees’ exempt status will be jeopardized. Under 29 C.F.R. 541.602, deductions from exempt employees’ pay can be taken for disciplinary suspensions, but they must be made on a full-day basis only. In addition, the suspension must be imposed as a result of a serious violation of workplace conduct rules, such as engaging in dangerous behavior in the workplace or committing sexual harassment. The Department of Labor excludes suspensions related to performance issues and poor attendance from the definition of “violations of workplace conduct rules.” Finally, according to the regulations, the suspension must be part of a “written policy applicable to all employees.”

      So, this employer could be in serious trouble, as changing where you sit in Cubicleland is hardly a “serious” violation or destruction or abuse of company property, and certainly not something they can legally fine an employee for.

      1. Jonathan L.*

        Thanks for the response. I figured that was the case.

        Incidentally, the sign was only there for a short time (like less than two weeks) before it disappeared. I wonder if Legal made them take it down.

  225. Bilateralrope*

    I work security on a site that has low pay and the client puts is through an opaque vetting process* before allowing us on site. When someone fails it, he only gets told that he’s failed, not why. So getting new guards in takes a while.
    A few months ago, the client suddenly decided that one of the night guards was no longer welcome here. At least we had a backup who could fill the gap until a new permanent guard is found. But now all the vetted guards are on the regular roster.

    Then another site had a combination of one guard out on leave, another sick and an open position listed in the company newsletter (so I think a third guard resigned or got fired). And it turns out that our ‘backup’ guard is the only availabe person trained on that site. As a result:
    – I got turned down from moving to that site because they need me here. Not an unexpected reply but still disappointing. Especially when the transfer would have come with a pay rise.
    – I’m currently on the second, of at least three, 72 hour work weeks. Sure, thing will probably calm down when the guard is back from leave but I don’t know how long that will take (last year I was made to take 7 weeks off because I had accumulated too much leave).

    The worst part is that, instead of my supervisor explaining why this was happening, the only notification I got was the email the rostering software sends out when shifts are added. I had to find out the details from another guard who was told them.

    *I’m not going to respond to any speculation about the vetting process.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. It doesn’t sound like a very well run company.
      Is there a way to contact your manager to get a better reason why you can’t switch sites other than “they need you here?” It sounds like they need security at both sites pretty badly.

      1. Bilateralrope*

        Across the two sites, we are look at maybe 10 guards when fully staffed. 4 on the regular roster for each site, plus 2 backups who are site trained and vetted, but normally work other sites. Ive found out that at least 4 are unavailable for various reasons. If it was only 3 unavailable my workload would be sustainable.

        The cant switch sites is probably temporary. I am going to try and talk to someone about my career advancement within the company once this current mess ends. If that goes badly, then I’ll probably start job searching early next year.

  226. I hate coming up with usernames*

    Don’t know if this will get seen since it’s Saturday morning now, but I’m struggling with the transition to a new job. I was working at a charter school where I was underpaid, had a high population of students with severe special needs (and little to no extra support for those students), and bad admin. I’m now working at a public high school with better pay, more support, and a great reputation…and yet I’m really struggling and feeling like I miss my old job.

    I really clicked with my coworkers at my old job, and became friends with many of them – my mentor and I would chat almost every day during lunch and after school about life, work advice, etc. People here are friendly, but more surface level – they keep to themselves more, and everyone quickly leaves as soon as school ends. I know that means good things for work/life balance. But I was hired literally the day before school started, so I’m trying to pull together unit plans and figure out their curriculum really quickly, so having my new mentor be out the door at 2:31 when school ends at 2:30 is not ideal. And honestly, I’m just feeling a bit lost and lonely, and almost regretting my choice.

    I know that in the long run, this is the better choice for my family financially, for my work/life balance, etc. But having to learn the names of 150 students, dozens of coworkers, plan a unit using a brand new to me curriculum, and figure out what behavior management strategies work best with these students all at once is so mentally draining. I’m hoping to be happier in the long run here, but the short term is exhausting.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I think missing your old job and having some doubts is perfectly normal and part of taking a new job.
      If you were literally hired just before school started, it means you didn’t have time to meet the other teachers over the summer and get to know people–again perfectly normal. Plus, my understanding is that when school starts it’s generally crazy for all teachers, so my guess is that it’s normal to just want to leave after an exhausting day. I’m sure things will settle.

      Give it some time! Be friendly and gradually get to know people. Remember they also don’t know YOU yet either. If your mentor really doesn’t have the time to give you the attention you need, I’d see if there is someone else available who could bridge that gap, or maybe block out some real 1-1 time one afternoon a week.

      And it doesn’t mean you can’t still be friends with your old coworkers. Arrange to meet them for coffee or after work.

    2. sequined histories*

      I’ve been at the same school for 14 years and I’m still super stressed at the beginning of every year! I have dear friends here now, but I felt much as you do when I started. People really vary a lot in terms of how much time and energy they can and do put into welcoming newcomers to a school, and who actually takes that on has little to do with people’s actual job descriptions.
      On a practical level, I suggest you actually ask whole groups of people for help in a positive, upbeat way. I’m talking about saying at a meeting or to people over email: “Hey, everybody! Since I’m new to X and have never taught Y before, I’d be really grateful to anyone experienced who’d be willing to share lesson ideas/assignments/(or whatever) that have worked for you in the past! And, of course, I’m looking forward to getting to know all of you as colleagues this year.” You’re not putting anyone on the spot, but you’re putting yourself on the radar of people who might be of a mind to help.
      Also—and this has been very hard for me to learn—it really is okay that you don’t have this on lock. Teaching is the ultimate example of a field where there’s ALWAYS room for improvement and you will ALWAYS be thrown off by the unexpected. If you’re trying your best and open to true improvement, that’s all anyone can do. There’s no shortcut to experience. Do what you can to take care of yourself along the way, so you have a chance to acquire it.

  227. Marley*

    My coworker seems to think I’m a slacker & brown noser who gets preferential treatment.

    So I asked about this person on another forum and they suggested I report them to HR due to racist and disrespectful comments my coworker makes about clients to other employees.

    I feel bad doing this because they would be swiftly fired.

    I’m addition this person is very passive aggressive and rude to me. They seem to think because I get along with my boss (and most employees there) I must be a brown noser (this is an assumption on my part but most likely true), has given me trouble for certain work Ive done when the boss said good job, and gossips about me IN FRONT OF ME.

    None of this is direct but is hurting my morale. Recently they have started ignoring me and avoiding me. We were all at the office and this person just didn’t talk to me at all.

    I know that my coworker is in fact in danger of losing their job due to their attitude and they seem to have checked out at work in general….

    How do I deal with them??

    1. valentine*

      they suggested I report them to HR due to racist and disrespectful comments my coworker makes about clients to other employees. […] I feel bad doing this because they would be swiftly fired.
      I see no downside. No one should be in the business of preserving the employment of racists. The advice to use the client angle instead of a personal one is great.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Same – this person deserves to no longer work there. It sounds like your manager is trying to get more evidence to complete the process of firing them. By reporting things you’ve seen, you aren’t getting this person fired – this person’s attitude and behavior are getting them fired.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I think deciding whether or not to report them to HR depends on how bad of an issue you think this is.
      By that I mean, are the comments frustrated venting or seriously racist in nature? Is there an ongoing regular pattern of these comments or just occasionally? Do the comments escalate in severity? Is there risk of clients overhearing? When the coworker makes said comments, do other people laugh and think he’s funny, or do they seem unhappy or uneasy? Have you tried mentioning these comments to coworker’s manager as a first step?

      The thing I’m getting at is not trying to protect anyone for being a racist jerkwad, but also not immediately reporting to HR either. Sometimes these people can be shut down by telling them to basically KNOCK IT OFF because it’s rude, racist and unprofessional (who knows what norms they’ve been brought up with?) but other times not and they’ll never change. Ideally, this person’s manager ought to be addressing the behavior directly. But if the manager(s) don’t seem to be doing anything, then yes, reporting to HR is the next move.

      1. Marley*

        My manager has suspicions that the employee is saying derogatory things about our clients, but does not have any proof of it. My manager directly asked me and I didn’t say anything because I do have concerns about putting someone out of a job. Maybe I’m too empathetic with people?

        This coworker is kind of a blemish on the department and brings us all down, in my opinion. All they do is complain or criticize. I don’t really understand why my boss has done nothing when she knows about these ongoing issues.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          When you hear this employee say derogatory things, do you ever say anything to him calmly? Like: “Hey Fergus, it’s really unprofessional to talk about clients like that. Stop saying things like that at work.”

          If your manager asked you directly about the behavior of this employee, you should bring up your concerns and observations to your manager. Especially the derogatory things about clients. You are reporting detrimental behavior not telling on someone. You realize you’re not the one putting someone out of a job here right? Because jerk coworker is doing that all on their own. I’m not a fan of running to HR for everything, but in this case your manager approached you.

          From what you’ve said though, it sounds like this employee is already on their way out and your manager maybe IS doing something about it behind the scenes. It’s possible they employee is on a PiP hence the worsening behavior, which is why your manager wants to know what’s going on.

          1. Marley*

            I may speak to the manager about it. She told me I would have to put in writing what the coworker said, and I honestly don’t remember specific things said. I may just go to HR so I cut out the middle man, tbh.

        2. WellRed*

          If you have heard the comments, you should be honest. The clients deserve empathy more tjan your jerk coworker.

          1. Marley*

            I genuinely agree, I just worry about their job prospects. But we serve people in a lower socio-economic class so they definitely deserve better.

  228. Suspendersarecool*

    Hope this isn’t too late to the party! Question about interview clothes- would a gray ponte sheath dress plus a black blazer be formal enough for an interview where you’d be expected to wear a suit but isn’t ultra conservative (not finance or law, business casual once hired)? What about a gray printed sheath dress?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Sheath dress + blazer = probably ok
      Printed dress – maybe if it’s a very small / conservative print. Not the Zara polka dot, for example – too big and irregular. Duchess of Cambridge’s Alessandra Rich navy polka dot would probably be ok. (I know, these aren’t sheath, but they’re findable easily)

        1. myug*

          I would say the “not this” dress is much more appropriate than the polka dot dress in the first link. I always think of polka as too whimsical for a conservative officiate but gingham should be okay.

          Gray dress with black blazer should be fine though!

  229. Jocelyn*

    I’d love to know the AMA community thoughts on Linked In. I was an early adopter, built a robust profile with lots of recommendations and references.

    Then, about 5 years ago in a fit of ennui I deleted it. I regretted losing all that work ALMOST immediately, yet I don’t miss Linked In.

    I’m looking for work at the moment and as I update my resume I keep returning to Linked In to reconsider whether or not it’s valuable to built a robust profile again. My impression is that it’s more of a professional placeholder, but I have no idea whether it will be helpful in a job search. Thoughts? How do you use Linked In?

    1. CM*

      I hate LinkedIn and I only keep a profile there because I need one to view the job listings. I’m really put off by how it’s used as an echo chamber for corporate greed, etc, etc, but I’m also not thrilled about the security risk that comes from giving such detailed info about where I lived and worked to any random stranger who stops by.

      I think this varies a little by field but, FWIW, I’ve never once been approached by a recruiter on LinkedIn, or even managed to meet anyone I don’t already know. Also, if you’re doing portfolio-based applications, their file hosting is terrible and they don’t let you embed links to outside documents very well.

      And they email you incessantly to ask you if you’re friends with people who were mean to you in school.

      I could go on.

      1. Grace Less*

        My experience has been very different than CM’s. I have my current job because a recruiter found me during the December holidays, before the company had even posted the opening.

        Since I’m not actively job hunting now, I have my security settings up pretty high. You can’t see any of my roles from a Google search. I have been approached by a few recruiters each year, all for legitimate roles. There are email settings you can toggle to prevent the “you may know” emails; I get almost no email from them when I don’t have a job search (daily email notifying me of jobs with keywords) open.

        1. Jocelyn*

          Helpful. I keep my FB privacy settings locked down but I don’t recall doing that on LI at all.
          Thanks Grace Less.

  230. damien*

    Fellow people in the UK, I have a problemo. My manager concealed several disguised listening-devices around my workplace, which is home to dozens of vulnerable adults and has a large team working day and night. These listening devices aren’t for the good of the home, they’re just to satisfy the paranoia and nosiness of my manager, who wants to know who they can and can’t trust, and uses this knowledge to oust any people who stand up to them or don’t take their nonsense. So far, one person has been intimidated out of the building outright, but several other staff members including me now want to leave because the manager has been treating us like crap after presumably overhearing us discussing them in a less-than-positive light. They have done several other ridiculous and dodgy things other than recording us without our knowledge, and have endangered several service users through their lack of clear sight. They have had a terrible impact on the mental health of several members of staff.

    My question is, are any laws being broken or even bent by my manager’s decision to covertly, and without any permission from anyone, record peoples’ private conversations – not to mention any confidential info regarding our service users.

    1. WellRed*

      Not in the UK but in US, this would violate consent for recording laws in most states, and probably HIPAA too, which is a Big Deal. I thought UK had some serious privacy type laws?

      1. Damien*

        It might violate the Human Rights Act 1998, or the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, but i read on one site that it can also depend on company policy… i just want to take my manager to the cleaners over it, honestly. I’ve never known the place be so heartlessly mismanaged in all the years I’ve been there.

    2. YetAnotherUsername*

      I’m also not in the UK but I found this.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dma-law.co.uk/is-it-illegal-to-record-conversations/amp/

      For a member of the public to record a conversation It’s not a criminal offense unless they sell the recording.

      There are different rules for businesses than the general public. There are strict rules about recording telephone conversations but it’s not clear what the rule is for businesses recording day to day like this.

      I would imagine there are also separate rules about recording clients who are vulnerable adults.

      Gdpr still applies in Britain until 31st October so if you ask in writing for copies of all the recordings you are in, your boss has to give them to you under EU law. And if the clients or whoever has “power of attorney” (or whatever its called in the UK) for the client asks then your boss would have to give them a copy of all the recordings that client is in

      I suggest you go to your bosses boss. I very much doubt this was authorized.

      If your boss is the owner then contact whatever agency funds them and ask for guidance. Since you support vulnerable adults I’m going to assume you at least get funding from the government.

      If for some reason that’s not an option all of you could contact a lawyer as a group. Most lawyers will do the initial meeting for free then give you a price for eg them writing a letter on your behalf.

      You could go to the media. This would absolutely blow up in a publication like the sun or the daily mail and the boss would probably be fired/hounded out of business. I work in pharmaceuticals and one of the things we are taught in ethics training is its not just what is and isn’t against the law, think about how it would look in the papers.

      1. Bilateralrope*

        Since we have people living in this workplace, I think it might be best to also look at laws around landlords placing recording devices in their rental properties.

        1. Damien*

          It’s a care home so there’s resident confidentiality to consider as well as provacy of the staff – the location of the devices means that there would certainly have been sensitive medical info caught on the recording.

      2. Damien*

        It’s a private care home so I’m foggy on how it’s funded – as for the recording devices, i think the data on them can be wiped over bluetooth by the phone they’re paired with, although they did get confiscated by another manager so i don’t know if that could be done long-distance. A plan is in the works, but the bulk of this is out of my hands. I just want to know how to hit my manager where it hurts.

    3. Weegie*

      It’s not clear what type of facility you work in, but given that vulnerable adults are involved I assume there is some kind of regulator /inspection service that oversees its operation – and probably the council’s social work services have some kind of involvement. I would report your concerns to one or all of these, and also contact the helpline of any relevant charity concerned with the welfare of the adults living there. I have no idea whether recording without workers’ consent is legal or not, but I imagine there will at least be privacy concerns regarding the residents.

      It also sounds like the mismanagement goes beyond covert recording, and I’m really concerned about what you say is ‘endangerment’ of service users – the relevant authorities need to know about this pronto, and I would get on the phone as soon as possible. (My late father was in a mismanaged care home, and it took the near-death of a resident to bring it to light. It took a ridiculous amount of time, and several botched attempts by the owners to fix things, but at least the authorities were aware and watching. Don’t hang around.)

    4. Bob*

      Citizens Advice Bureau should be able to point you in the right direction and provide proper guidance on how to proceed. But as someone also in the UK, that sounds dodgy as hell, and certainly under GDPR there is just added shadyness.

  231. Overwhelmed*

    I want to begin job hunting after only about 6-7 months at my current job. The job has changed so much in the time I’ve been here due to other staff leaving that I basically have three jobs now (or at least 2.5). Even though I’ve recently been able to hire an assistant, the person before me in this role had one as well…but only the 1 original job I had. Plus, I must train the new assistant and new staff and volunteers while constantly getting more tasks piled on me.

    I’m not sure how to navigate all this without it reflecting poorly on me. Worst of all, I feel like I’m brushing up against a mental health crisis and don’t know how to handle that AND the demands of this job/job searching. I work for a very small nonprofit with no HR services and a boss who has proven insensitive at best to mental health concerns. I’m extremely afraid of ending up in a really bad situation financially/personally/career-wise and have no idea as to the steps I should take next as I don’t currently trust my own judgement/reactions.

    1. Grace Less*

      You’ve acknowledged there’s a problem, and that’s a wonderful first step!

      In your shoes, I would try to triage the current job and simultaneously re-open the job search. Sit down with your supervisor and their boss and lay out the current workload as compared to the current resources. “This week we can realistically do A, B, and C, or we can do X and Y, but not both. How would you like me to prioritize things?”

      For the job hunt, I would just reactivate your profile on job searching sites and quietly let your professional network know that you’re open to new opportunities. As you find potential positions, you now have an extra layer of knowledge to evaluate them for fit, comparing them with the aspects of your current role that are problematic.

      I don’t think that your judgment is a problem. This role changed, and how could you have anticipated that? Chalk it up to bad luck and know that you’re going to be a great asset to the next company lucky enough to have you!

      1. Overwhelmed*

        Thank you for your kind advice.

        To clarify: I doubt my judgment because of my worsening mental health, not really anything else. Basically, I feel like a complete loser at life who can’t get another job and who is failing miserably at their current job. I had an anxiety attack after a meeting recently and I’m so afraid of crying or overreacting at work and damaging people’s opinion of me. I work in a very competitive field in the sense there are way more people who want to do this job than there are jobs, so I think — why would anyone want to hire/keep a high-strung, weak person like me around? And so on and so forth. It’s hard for me to break this cycle of negative thinking right now around work, because it seems like everyday something happens that reinforces it.

  232. Chatty Girl*

    I had a really crappy incident with my project manager last week and, when talking to my grand-boss about it, he fixated on a detail about some problematic (sexist) language that was used by another team member during the incident. He asked for any other examples of insensitive language and I gave him another, but couldn’t think of any others. He said I could tell him at any time if I remember any others or any new incidents like that come up.

    Well, my brain won’t leave work-land this weekend because the incident with the project manager is bothering me. And one of the things the project manager said that’s been bothering me was that if you have feedback for someone, you should go talk to them (never mind that this discussion was a follow-up on the initial incident where I was attempting to give him feedback about the incident). Anyway, this bothers me so much because I don’t usually feel like I can go to the project manager because he shattered my trust a year and a half ago when he was describing his weekend and said he did these parties where there are “no girls allowed” because “girls will just chat” and that was undesirable to him for the atmosphere he wanted to create. And I never talked about that conversation to anyone because you have to pick your battles and it’s nothing I haven’t heard or dealt with before. But it made it clear to me this is not someone who has my back. I’m also the only woman in my role in my company and I’ve heard from multiple people that the company used to have a real bro culture.

    Back to my grand-boss. I’m conflicted as to whether I should tell him. On the one hand, it was a long time ago and I’m not looking to get project manager in trouble (not that he would get into trouble; I trust that grand-boss wants to make it a stress-free working environment for everyone and he does a great job of addressing issues without making it about the person, just the behavior). On the other hand, this conversation and the lack of any follow ups or conversations that shed a different light on the project manager has permanently changed how I work with this individual. Also, right now they’re restructuring teams to figure out how to approach a large body of work coming our way, so this is probably the best time to bring up interpersonal issues to help inform those changes.

    Any thoughts?

    1. valentine*

      Don’t bring it up and don’t reflect on past interactions to unearth more. It’ll just seem like you can’t let go of a fleeting comment that wasn’t about work. (Is this what your username’s about?) I think it’s too small to shatter trust, but my default is not to trust. Does the PM exclude women from his team or meetings? Does he treat women differently and worse than men? How is he with women who are his superiors?

      Do you trust the PM to do their work, support yours, and/or to stay out of your way? Have you done successful projects together? Was the incident about the project or another work aspect or about words and feelings? (If he does the oblivious feedback thing again, you can say, “This conversation is an example of me providing feedback.”)

      I think you’re doing the thing where the bar is so low that PM seems like a demon and GB seems like a hero, by comparison, when GB is the real problem or where the buck should stop, but he’s instead both derailed and thrown it back to you by fixating on sexist language. Sure, it matters if someone says sexist things, but, even if he stops, he’s still going to be sexist and GB doesn’t care about that. If he thinks sexism is isolated to words or that’s the only area where he can definitely see it, that’s not useful to you.

  233. Don't Hurt the Science*

    After working part time for two years, how does one get used to the 8-5, 40 hour work week again?
    I’ve been working about 20 hours four days a week for a while and am needing some practical ways to get used to doubling my hours.

    1. valentine*

      Can you increase them by adding an hour or two every two weeks? If not, it’s going to have a massive impact, like going from working five to seven days a week.

    2. Kiwiii*

      I think doing it in phases will be the most practical. Upping your 4 5 hour days to 6 hrs or so for a week or two, then adding in your 5th day at a smaller amount of hours (start with 3 or 4?), and then slowly working your way up to full hours like that. Depending on what day you weren’t working before and how that fits into your schedule (and what you’re allowed to do), it might be useful to keep that day short or open entirely and work 4 10s.

      If you don’t have the ability to escalate gradually, building prep-time into things should help with organization and practicality of 2x the work — grocery shop on the weekends or on the way home, order your errands so that you have the shortest drive time, if you can do prepwork for meals on the weekends or buy a couple “wow i really don’t want to cook” frozen pizzas to have on hand, that will help too. If you have the funds, plan something to treat yourself/your body after the first week or two, be that a massage or manicure or dedicated couple hours reading outside/doing yoga/going to that fitness class you’ve been meaning to try. And don’t beat yourself up if you’re too tired to do anything after a work day.

  234. Maude*

    I am applying for a full-time job in a career in which I have lots of experience….over 5 years ago. The front page of my resume now shows work experience not relevant to the job in question, as my relevant work experience has been pushed to the second page. Any suggestions on how to fix this? If I put my current, non-relevant job in a different category on the second page, it could confuse the HR person who will think I haven’t worked since 2013. (I was asked this once “So, what have you done since you left your job 2013?” at which point I had to show that on the second page is my current job. Confusion is what I want to avoid!)

    1. Kathenus*

      Separate your work into ‘Career-related employment’ and ‘other employment ‘ or whatever titles work for you. And have the career related listed first.

      1. YetAnotherUsername*

        Yes this. Eg if you are going back into teapot painting have a section called “teapot painting experience” on page 1 and “other experience” after

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