open thread – October 11-12, 2019

by Alison Green on October 11, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Anon in DC*

    We have an assistant who has a terrible attitude and consequently always gets rewarded because everyone in our department always tend to ask the other assistants for help instead so she is left without having to do much work because they’d rather avoid her huffs and rolled eyes.

    Unfortunately, her direct supervisor is non-confrontational and does not do anything to hold her accountable. Any advice on how to delegate to someone who has a bad attitude and for whom you don’t actually have any supervisory control over?

    1. Shannon*

      I dealt with this, and I can only say just do it, and eventually her BS will start to affect you less/become less awkward for you. It’s absolutely not fair, but if you/others have addressed it with her boss and didn’t get anywhere, you don’t have much of a choice.

      I also tried the tactic of innocently asking “Oh, is something wrong/Do you not understand the directions/Sorry, are you in the middle of something?” and usually, this would stop the behavior in the short term; however, it always came back and sometimes I just didn’t have the energy.

      1. Anon in DC*

        I’ve tried similar tactics and suppose I just have to continue to push on through and ignore the BS until I just get used to it and don’t let it bother me! The energy it takes to interact with her makes it enticing for me to just do everything I’d normally pass off to an assistant myself, but I don’t want to “reward” the bad behavior like so many others have succumbed to doing.

        1. Lucy Preston*

          Thank you for posting this. I came here for a similar situation and yours being the first post was great. I’m dealing with one employee, whom I’ll call Princess Cordelia.
          I’m technically her manager, but she is in a protected class. I often feel more like a nag that a manager and it takes a ton of effort on my part that never seems to pay off.
          Grand boss is pushing me to push Cordelia more. I’ll push firmly (but not harshly) and then Cordelia just runs back to grand boss saying the work is too hard or too boring or she just doesn’t feel good. Then grand boss tells me to back off.
          I’ve had this discussions with grand boss that this situation won’t work if she always buffers for Cordelia. But grand boss always insists that they are not acting as a buffer.
          I really don’t like making the effort to bother anymore.

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        +1 Don’t avoid giving her work just because she huffs. And follow up often if she’s the type to “forget” to do something or take a really long time in order to punish you. I work with a woman like this and the only thing that works is to keep giving her the tasks that are her job to do, push back and call her out on it when she tries to lob it back onto my desk, and cc in her supervisor whenever her actions cause delays in the work getting done. I don’t bother addressing her attitude, just actions. She can huff all she wants about submitting TPS reports, but if they aren’t submitted, then her boss is going to hear it.

        1. BetsCounts*

          right now it is less work for the supervisor to ignore the problem. By bringing it up to the assistant’s supervisor every time you get pushback/bad attitude/bad work output, and discussing how it is negatively impacting the business (even if the supervisor knows/should know!) you can change the calculation, especially if you can get your colleagues to do the same.

          1. Mama Bear*

            CC is your best friend with these kinds of people, both to cover yourself/paper trail and to inform their boss “this is assigned to them and this is the deadline”. There are times my boss will say “yeah, I saw the crickets you got from that email” so he knows that I wasn’t the roadblock.

      1. Anon in DC*

        Unfortunately, her results are poor compared to the other assistants, too, and require a lot of follow ups and reminders whereas the other assistants just get things done. We work in an environment involving a lot of time sensitive work.

        We are assigned a “primary” assistant, but this rotates, so people tend not to want to take the risk with the unreliable assistant and just go to the other two who are great at their jobs or do it themselves. But I want to assign this person work during the time period when she’s assigned as my primary assistant because it’s not fair to the other assistants when they all end up with the same raises each year for them to end up with more work because of the one’s bad attitude. I suppose I just have to ignore the attitude issues and constantly follow up. Unfortunately, she has very good job security, so there’s no actual risk of her getting fired, which I suppose enables this type of behavior.

        1. Sunflower*

          I’m wondering if you work at my old job. I used to work at BigLaw firm and there was a secretary who was just..terrible. Bad attitude, not good at her job. She wasn’t fired but instead was reassigned to only retired partners as her principles(aka not a lot of pressing work to do). The other option we had was to make people floating assistants- they filled in if someone was sick or sometimes filled in at reception if it was busy. I think once enough people requested for someone to be not assigned to them, they were regulated to a floater position- can you ask to not have that person assigned to you?

          If you think the issue is the supervisor and not that the company thinks they can’t fire her so they won’t do anything, I’d suggest complaining up the chain. This really isn’t acceptable and if you work in a professional services firm where the assistants are there to literally make your life easier then there will be someone who does something. Even if she isn’t able to be fired, there may be other options.

        2. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

          Unfortunately, she has very good job security,

          How so? I would think her own manager would want her gone if she’s lazy and rude.

            1. QCI*

              Is there an option to just make her life at work worse by enforcing her job duties? If someone else constantly getting fussed at or annoyed about doing their job, eventually it might be easier for them to just do their job, right?

        3. That Lady in HR*

          I have very little patience for non-confrontational managers who don’t do their jobs. I would put the pain back on her manager. Continue to assign work as you normally would, and go directly to the manager any time there are issues with her work or attitude. Don’t allow the manager to get off so easily.

        4. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

          Why can’t you make a comment -to her-about her attitude?
          Ask her to do a task using a pleasant tone (“Please”, “Thank you”). If her response is snarky or she gives you the eye roll or whatever she does to convey ‘attitude’, then say, “I don’t care for your [name the attitude, behavior], [name]. Do not do that to me again. Please complete the task I assigned to you. Thank you. ”

          Then don’t give her a chance to ‘explain’ or rationalize her attitude/behavior. Just walk away at this point.
          Maybe a few ‘calling’s out’ of her attitude will make her realize she needs to conform to work place professional norms- regardless of what she feels about the job or the tasks.

          1. morning glory*

            It wouldn’t matter what the initial provocation was – if I heard one of my coworkers use that script on another, I would not like that coworker, or want to work with them. I’d think they were being pretty condescending and – if they were speaking to an assistant – classist.

            I do think ti can be a good idea to name a behavior or pattern specifically, but not by being a jerk.

        5. Observer*

          Even with the best job security it’s generally possible to manage someone out if anyone is willing to take the effort.

          Keep giving her work and document your head off. Everything goes into email with your manager and her manager (and your grand-boss and HR strategically included).

    3. Buttons*

      An adult who acts like a teenager, fun! I would call her on it “Is this a problem?” “Why are you rolling your eyes, should I not be asking you to this?” “When you sigh like that, it seems like you are irritated that I am asking you to do something.”
      F that noise.

      1. Turtlewings*

        I like the idea of calling her on specific behaviors, like the rolling her eyes and huffing, and oh-so-innocently asking why she’s acting like that. Force her to either defend her behavior, which she can’t without looking ridiculous, or knock it off.

        1. Anon in DC*

          Same here… thanks for this suggestion! I think my comments (“Is there a problem with that?” “Do you have a question about this?”) were too subtle. I like the idea of specifically drawing attention to the behavior, such as the rolled eyes.

          1. Tink*

            And give her a deadline. Earlier than you really need it so you have time to send it back for a re-do if/when she does a sloppy job.

      2. Ophelia*

        Exactly. Call this person out on their behavior, because they are creating the hostile working environment and are not doing their job. Document, CYA, document, CYA. Email and CC their manager every time a task is assigned to this person. All follow-ups and corrections should be CC’d to the manager as well. Make the manager aware of the constant issues. Make the person aware that you are clearly documenting the frequent issues. When they behave poorly in person, call them out on it in an appropriate way. “Why did you roll your eyes?” Then follow-up with an email to her supervisor and CC her. “Supervisor, when I asked Jane to complete this task, she seemed to think it wasn’t something she should do. Is there another person in the office I should be approaching for those assignments or another way I should giving these tasks to the assistants?” Force a response.

        And you need to get the others on board. Yes, it’s easier in the short term to pass the tasks to other assistants, but you are overloading them with work and you will burn them out. It isn’t fair that the other two assistants are doing the work of three and not getting paid for it. This will bite your office in the rear.

        Also, it’s possible to have sympathy for this struggling assistant. You don’t know what is happening with her right now. She may have reasons behind her poor behavior that bring in compassion, but it doesn’t change that her behavior is simply not acceptable in the workplace. I know that for me, depression shows often as anger. It is easy for me to be angry and huffy and eye-rolly when I am struggling, so I would have appreciated someone close reaching out with resources. If you aren’t close, then maybe there is someone else who is.

    4. Throwaway123*

      The actual problem is the direct supervisor. Just keep bringing it up to that supervisor and when that obviously doesn’t do anything then raise it to that supervisor’s supervisors with factual statements on how it’s impacting work objectives. Continue until something happens. When other assistants have to step up, have them also raise the issue with that supervisor and that supervisor’s supervisor. Continue until something happens.

      If nothing happens, then you either accept that status quo or find a new position because you have done what you can.

    5. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      Have you questioned her attitude in the moment it happens, and explained why it’s not acceptable to react in that way? And if her supervisor hasn’t done anything to hold her accountable I’m assuming you’ve taken her behavior to them?

      I always start with the person themselves. Call them out on their behavior in a civil and professional manner, even if you think it will make the situation worse. It shows you’ve tried to handle it on your own first. If that doesn’t work, take it to the supervisor (if you haven’t already done so). And if still nothing is done, go above supervisor’s head or take it to HR. And document everything. You shouldn’t have to deal with a bad attitude for simply asking someone to do their job.

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        Exactly this. “I’m sorry, but did I say something to make you roll your eyes at me? Is there some part of this task that is part of your job description that is not clear? Attitude is not required to carry out this task and I need you to not disrespect me like that.”

      2. Anon in DC*

        The three assistants are shared by several of us in the department. She was actually here before I even joined the department, and these problems and issues have been going on for years.

        To be honest, I think her supervisor might even be afraid of her, which is why she never confronts her with the issues we bring up. Her supervisor really doesn’t have the ability to fire her. But yes, I suppose this is probably a problem with both the assistant AND the supervisor.

        1. Mama Bear*

          Do you have skip level meetings where you could bring this up with the grandboss?

          I hear you on the difficulty of firing – I know someone who had a yearlong (yes, year) struggle to fire someone who went AWOL. You would think that was cut and dry but no. I can only imagine that someone who only has a bad attitude would be harder.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I’m right with you there. I spend 95% of my workdays running around like my hair is on fire and my butt is catching, but I find that FAR preferable to being stuck surfing YouTube videos and watching the clock!

    7. Practicing Sandwich*

      If you have weekly/monthly team meeting, make an effort to thank the other admins for their work on whatever project/extra tasks they took on.

      Offer acknowledgement to those who do.

    8. Mrs_helm*

      If the problem is that “everyone asks other assistants”, can you have the director change HOW work is assigned? Perhaps instead of going to assistants directly, the requests should funnel through someone who can distribute them more fairly. Or have 1-2 assistants assigned to each person in department, if that fits your structure.

      If people can just choose to work with someone more pleasant, they always will.

      Conversely, if you can do something to incentivize the assistants who do more work, would this person go drumming up work? Kinda like how waitresses have to be nice for more tips?

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Or maybe even send her work via email or some other non-face-to-face option, if that’s possible. You won’t see if she’s rolling her eyes at her inbox.

        1. Anon in DC*

          I actually usually do assign work via email as opposed to in person (and prefer that so there is a paper trail), but since she never acknowledges emails or gives any indication that something has been done, I always have to follow up in person. I’ve thought about whether it might be worth it to cc her direct supervisor on everything that is assigned so it becomes her problem, too, but I didn’t want to come across as passive aggressive. I’m relatively new to this department, so I’ve been toeing the line carefully during my first year.

          1. Joielle*

            Here’s what I’ve done with good results – I’d include a line in the email when you assign work like “Please confirm ASAP that you have received this email” or something like that. If she doesn’t respond to confirm, you can follow up later that day or the next day to make sure she got the email. If you do that enough times, she will hopefully be annoyed enough to just do it in the first place.

            1. Mama Bear*

              I’d cc the boss and if they ask, say that assistant has a habit of not responding to emails so you wanted them to be aware of your request. Do you have a task manager?

            2. Dancing Otter*

              Read receipts generally just clutter my inbox and annoy me, but you need them with this woman.
              Of course, if she doesn’t even open the email… No, actually, read receipts are good for documenting that BS, too.
              If you’re using Outlook (Yeah, it’s the worst system there is, except for all the others.), it includes task management. You can assign tasks to another user, with due dates, and then monitor progress/completion.

    9. Jubilance*

      How is this person still employed? They have a sucky attitude so people don’t give them work which leaves them unproductive….why not just get rid of them?

        2. CheeryO*

          I work in state government and am way too familiar with this type of person. As sucky as it is, I’d just keep giving them work when it’s appropriate and try to ignore the crappy attitude. It’s not you; it’s 1000% them (which I’m sure you know). If you get pushback to the point that the thing just isn’t getting done, then it’s time to elevate it to their supervisor. If they won’t do anything, then take it to your supervisor, or someone above this person’s supervisor, anyone with the power and willingness to act.

          You have to make some noise every time someone like this makes your life unnecessarily difficult. Even if they don’t get disciplined, maybe eventually you can get the work flow system changed – perhaps something like a central email address for all “assistant” work, where one manager assigns tasks and follows up as necessary.

        3. J*

          Perhaps that is somehow true in your organization. However, I’ve never found that to be true in the almost 30 years I’ve worked in government. People who don’t do their job get fired. We have very limited resources and absolutely cannot afford dead weight. I deal routinely with 200+ agencies. Layoffs, firings, corrective actions are a routine part of having employees.

    10. anonymous lab rat*

      I’m dealing with a different version of this. I started my position almost two years ago, and I’ve been slow to get up to speed because people find it quicker and easier to shunt all questions and problems to an experienced person. I would love to contribute more, but I’m being treated like a toddler who wants to help cook, paint, etc, but gets pushed aside by a busy parent. Now I feel like the toddler has become a young adult with no idea how to cook or paint.

      1. Mama Bear*

        If there is a go-to person, can you ask them for training/guidance? Have you mentioned this to your boss?

        1. anonymous lab rat*

          My coworkers have been good about answering questions; the problem is breaking people of the habit of bringing everything to the person who used to cover my long-vacant position. Since I started trusting that person and stopped seeing him as a usurper, I’ve learned a lot from him. My level of involvement in the company has gone up slowly since people got to know me a bit, but right now I’m two years in and I feel like I’m where I should have been at the 3-6 month point.

        1. anonymous lab rat*

          Agreed – my boss is a big part of the problem. He took me out to lunch on my first day, and I hardly ever saw him again after that.

    11. Kathenus*

      Building on other responses, suggest a two-pronged approach.

      First, keep assigning her work. As you mentioned in your responses, you don’t want to reward her by giving in to her attitude.

      Second, make her issues a problem for the non-confrontational supervisor. Loop her in EVERY SINGLE TIME there’s a problem. Things like ‘supervisor, I assigned assistant to run a report and she pushed back on the task’, ‘supervisor, I asked assistant to do X task and she didn’t complete it correctly and it had to be fixed/redone’, supervisor, assistant was requested Y task and it wasn’t completed by the deadline’. Make the supervisor deal with this negative work so that the cost of not doing anything begins to exceed the current cost of ignoring it.

      Do the assignments in writing, or back up a verbal request with an email so there’s a written record. And then just be consistent on pushing on this until things improve or they get rid of her. I know that federal can make it hard to fire, but I’ve worked for the feds as well and it can definitely be done if the manager will put in the work. Make it worth supervisor’s while to either manager assistant up, or manage her out. Good luck!

    12. pumpkin on da shelf*

      I, like anonymous lab rat, would like to offer an alternate thought. I am one of the admins at my company that gets all the work another admin, the CEO’s admin with a Master’s Degree, does not do well or that people don’t want to give her because of her poor attitude and skills. While it seems that you have a rotating, shared support structure in place I wonder how the others feel about doing more than their fair share while this person sits there and does little to no work. Perhaps in government jobs turnover isn’t as much of an issue as it is in the private sector but I assume you want to value and keep your good employees engaged. This kind of problem tends to erode motivation in the best employees. I know for me I can’t wait to work in a better environment where things are balanced.

      Sorry but I had to speak up for my peoples. It gets so old earning other people’s paychecks and often times, given the title and position, being lumped in with them and their poor behavior to boot! Good luck finding a solution.

      1. Anon in DC*

        I agree with you! That’s why I’ve come here for advice today on how to better delegate tasks to her despite her attitude problems when she is assigned as my assistant. I don’t want to put more burden on the other assistants while she gets left off the hook and doesn’t have to do anything!

    13. Kelly*

      Recently, my boss decided that I should propose a solution or an answer to every question I ask. He’s explained this is to give me more authority and to lessen the burden on his workload. I’m an entry level program coordinator for a non-profit, my title/job description/very low pay don’t include any managerial responsibilities, and sometimes I would really like my boss to impart advice or help when needed. I think it would be helpful to me in this stage of my career. Generally, I’m a very independent worker and I always meet my work-related goals. I don’t understand where this rhetorical question tactic is coming from. Has anyone experienced this? How did you handle it?

      1. Once in Botswana*

        I’m not sure I have any brilliant advice other than “just do it,” but this is a super common thing I’ve always been taught. You never present a problem without also presenting a solution. That way your autonomy grows, you learn quicker, and your boss will often just be able to say “yes” and move on.

      2. Pray Tell*

        This is really common and something I was always taught to do! You should be happy he trusts you and isn’t micromanaging you.

      3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        I’ve experienced it and it irks me to be told I shouldn’t approach my boss with a question unless I can also suggest a solution. If I had the solution I’d implement it. I don’t know whether it’s a management trend to “empower” their reports, or sometimes I feel they just don’t want to be bothered, not next time or this time. Maybe I’m being harsh, but for instance our company mission statement called for managers to “coach and mentor.” Is it really so difficult to provide direction to a report who’s tried everything they know, considered possible solutions that turned out not to work, and now need the help of wiser, more experienced leadership?

    14. Observer*

      I think that it might be easier to power through this is if you reframed this a bit. Not giving her work is not “rewarding her”. It’s punishing people who have a good attitude. When you look at it that way, it might give you a little push to deal with her attitude because “why should everyone else be punished for her misbehavior?”

      You’re not her supervisor, so it feels kind of weird to “discipline” her, by rewarding or not rewarding her. But you do have some obligation to others so that’s a less difficult lens to use.

    15. miss_chevious*

      I was in pretty much this exact situation and I’m sorry to say that the only way we ended up resolving it is that her actual manager’s organization was re-orged and lost the position, so she had to move on. The way I dealt with it on a day-to-day basis was to be as explicit as possible in my instruction and ignore *everything* attitude. Like, I literally pretended she had been friendly and civil, even when she wasn’t, and corrected her mistakes just like I would have if she had been anyone else. Her boss wouldn’t take steps to fire her, but I continued to raise issues to him as appropriate. I viewed it more as setting an example for my reports than having any real effect on her.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      A hundred people would take her job in a heartbeat if she really does not want it.

      I think the biggest problem here is keeping one’s own temper in check. As you are doing, this means planning out what you will say and how you will say it.

      Eye-rolling is considered a form of bullying and you can kind of see that it is effective here as her boss does not want to deal with her. And she is driving you and your peers away.
      It’s a long shot but if you found an article about bullying and it included mention of eye-rolling perhaps you can bring it to the boss’ attention. It’d probably be good to have copies of your workplace policy showing that bullying is not acceptable behavior.

      What I have seen people do in these situations is to simply say, “Yeah, we all feel that way. So we really don’t need the eye-rolls and the huffing. Everyone has their own hurdles they are trying to jump today. Please don’t add to it.”
      I have also heard a more direct approach, “We all want to roll our eyes and huff at each other but we don’t because it’s rude and it makes it look like we don’t know how to do our jobs.”

      If you prefer a different approach, you could go with, “Jane, why are you the only one here who huffs and eye-rolls when anyone asks you to do anything? No one else here is doing that.” Here the strategy is to tell her how she stands out like a sore thumb.

      You could encourage the boss to keep track of how many tasks each person is doing. Or you could encourage the boss to follow along to see who volunteers to do most tasks.

      When there are errors in her work, the boss should be looped in. Email is probably easiest but if it does not cause change then in-person conversations are necessary.
      If I could do it without getting caught in the fallout myself, I would give her work with that hard dead line and let her fail. But this can be tricky and usually ends up to be like cutting off one’s own nose.

      One last thought, if the other two can carry the work, then she is really not needed. This is something that can be pointed out to the boss also. Perhaps a cost saving measure?

      1. juliebulie*

        Another approach to the eyeroll is to verbally disregard it: “You can roll your eyes all you want to, just so long as this is done by the end of the week.”

    17. Stephanie*

      I work in an elementary school, and I have found that with particularly challenging kids–especially those that have a tendency toward escalating behavior when they’re confronted–that it often works to just calmly ask something like “Is there a reason you…” fill in the blank. (I actually asked a kid a couple of weeks ago if there was a reason he growled at me.) Since you’re assistant’s attitude is quite childish, I think you could approach her similarly.
      I would try asking her point blank “Is there a reason you’re rolling your eyes at me?” The key is to make sure your tone of voice is calm, bordering on earnest. People who behave this way keep doing it because it works for them, and she’s clearly not getting called out on it. If you challenge her to justify her attitude, it just might shock her enough to break the cycle a bit. Keep at it and she’ll get the message that you’re not playing her game.

  2. Insert Witty Name Here*

    I’m stuck in entry-level, hourly positions. How do I get out of these and advance into better roles? I feel frustrated because I have years of experience and a Master’s degree. I don’t have supervisory experience, but I have trained others. Any tips or advice?

    1. Catwoman*

      My first job out of retail after my Master’s was a university. I started in student recruitment and went in different directions from there. If you have a more liberal arts type of degree, I’d suggest looking at higher ed.

        1. Catwoman*

          I double down on higher ed. Your first role may not be super relevant to your field, but this type of environment is excellent for networking opportunities and you may even have something like an employee education program that would allow you to take a class or two for free so you could get to know the library folks on campus if they offer a Library Science degree. My university also recruits staff to teach adjunct so if you want teaching experience, that’s another plus.

        2. DataGirl*

          Are you in an area with a heavy saturation of librarians? Would moving be an option? If not, are there other areas of interest where your skills in ‘organizing information’ would be transferable?Where I live there are two accredited Universities with MLIS programs within 30 miles of each other so the market is completely over- saturated. The rumor is when even a part-time librarian job opens in my city they’ll get 300+ applicants. After I got my MLIS I got a job at a non-profit, and worked my way up from there in IT. I work in healthcare IT now. Good luck!

          1. Treecat*

            Yes, this. Especially if you live in an area that has a school that provides an MLIS. If you want a job in LIS and you want it (relatively) quickly, your best bet is to get on the relevant listservs and just start applying for the jobs you want, regardless of where they are. It’s totally okay to have dealbreaker locations but for the most part I tell the MLIS students I mentor that I see many, many job opportunities–they’re just not *here*.

            I’m sorry, I know that’s a crap answer, but truly, there is a high chance you need to go where the job is, even if that is the other side of the country.

          2. DJ*

            This is a really good point. I live in a state where there are no universities that offer MLIS degrees (Virginia, but ODU did recently announce they’re starting a program) and I feel like I see quite a few librarian jobs pop up even just in my immediate area.

            I second the higher ed suggestion too. I currently work in an academic library (staff, not librarian) and I first started in another department at the university and was able to transfer because of someone I had worked with previously.

            Also listservs are really useful for finding library jobs around the country. People post jobs on them frequently and sometimes before the job is actually posted anywhere else.

          3. Junior Assistant Peon*

            I’m not a librarian, but I’ve seen people in my field advance by being willing to move to undesirable areas. Not necessarily remote rural areas – if you can be open-minded about living in some rust-belt city like Erie or Toledo, there are jobs that need to be filled, and you won’t have to drive two hours for Starbucks, Target, etc.

          1. CallofDewey*

            Yes- I had to move from New England to Florida to get a parapro job that was full time and had decent benefits. Librarian roles are even more competitive.

          2. Stornry*

            Library HR, here. Yeah, you’d have to be willing to move, I’m afraid. There are only two schools in my state (CA) where you can get the degree, so most of our candidates are not local. For my part, recruiting can be difficult for that very reason. Moving up in the ranks can take a while – depending on attrition at the higher levels and positions becoming available – but is certainly possible. Our recently-appointed Director moved up the ranks in-house from Trainee to the top chair.

        4. Quill*

          You may want to start looking at law firms and other types of things that need documents wrangled (so, things with patents, legal filings, beaureaucracy.) I know a few corporate librarians!

          1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

            Yeah! Library sciences degrees are great for researchers and administrators (which people assume are always low-paying low-status jobs but really don’t have to be). Witty Name, you could get a paralegal certificate and I bet you’d see doors open (if you’re good at detail-oriented stuff). You could maybe take some data analytics classes and go that route; I feel like library sciences lend themselves well to data-wrangling jobs and they’re in super high demand.

            Location might be to do with it; there are lots of admin type roles that in bigger cities are salaried exempt but which in smaller cities/more rural areas are hourly and part-time (or at least have hours set to avoid paying benefits).

            Ultimately, though, there just aren’t that many librarian jobs out there, so if you want to get one, you have to not just be able to do the job, but show how you’re a better hire than the other 50 well-qualified people who will apply to that same job. You can apply to 100 jobs and if you’re a middle-of-the-pack candidate for all of them, you won’t get hired for any. Which sucks :( But maybe there are volunteer gigs you could take on at a local library, or some kind of independent project you can do to dig into your library skills/passions? Writing maybe? An Instagram featuring librarian memes? Idk, whatever you can do to highlight not only that you’re an aspiring librarian, but that you’re really passionate about it, and dedicated to the field.

            Good luck!

          2. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

            Insurance companies hire librarians for research positions as well. Law firms may be another avenue, but a lot of those positions are looking for candidates who have both a MLS and a JD.

          3. Insert Witty Name Here*

            I’ve tried applying to law firms, but most want you to have previous law firm experience and I don’t. Others want you to have a JD in addition to the MSLIS.

            1. Bertha*

              I interviewed at two law firms with no law firm experience, but I also wasn’t applying for librarian positions — look into Conflicts Analyst positions. If you want to do research, they are a great option. The positions also pay quite well.

            2. Cendol*

              Insert Witty Name Here—I’m not sure if this would work for you schedule-wise, or if you’ve already tried it, but have you considered law firm postings for evening or weekend roles? That’s how I got my foot in the door with zero prior experience and no JD. The hours may not be ideal, but it’s kind of nice not having to deal with the 9-5 commute crowd.

              There’s a lot of work, but it’s always interesting and seldom follows you home, and most firms have awesome benefits. That said, I heard absolutely nothing back from any of the BigLaw firms in NYC who were hiring evening librarians. I had to look elsewhere and be willing to relocate. A lot of local law librarian associations have their own job boards where they post opportunities, and there’s the AALL job board too.

              Also seconding Bertha’s comment re: conflicts analyst positions.

          4. Hush42*

            There’s a company in my city that builds and sells the software that library’s use to track books. I know that they have librarians on staff to test the software. Thinking outside the box on what you can do with your degree beyond just strictly work in a library type jobs might net you more opportunities that still allow you to find work that you’re good at that is tangentially related to your field.

        5. CheeryO*

          This is super anecdotal, but my MLIS friends have had to relocate and/or work their way up from smaller/less well-paying libraries. It seems like a very competitive field, unfortunately. I would recommend looking into the procedure for applying to civil service library positions (county, state, etc.), if you haven’t already.

          1. CMart*

            Yep. In my medium sized city (a suburb of a major city) my mother in law got promoted from 20 hours a week to 30 after she got her MLIS, after over a decade of service. 7 years after THAT she’s finally moved away and into a Library Director position in a much smaller town in a much smaller state.

            But she had to leave. It sucks, but she’s really happy with her career now and is kicking herself for being so afraid of relocating.

        6. Librarian of SHIELD*

          Are the hourly jobs you mentioned library jobs? Is there a way you can shadow or help out one of the librarians where you work with their duties? It gives you another line for your resume that can show you’ve got on-the-ground experience in doing the things you’ll need to do in the job.

          And I agree with DataGirl, if you’re able to be broad in the areas where you’re job searching, that’s a good thing. A lot of smaller or rural libraries are going to be more willing to take a chance on somebody with less experience because they’ll be getting a lower number of applicants. My library system is mostly suburban, but we’ve got a handful of locations that are further out from the center of town, and those libraries tend to be harder to staff because people don’t generally want to live that far out. But if you’re willing to do that for a year or so, it could get you a foot in the door.

        7. WantonSeedStitch*

          I work in prospect research/development research at a university. We actually have several people here with an MLS. Apparently it’s a really good background for work that involves a lot of knowing where to find information and being able to synthesize and analyze that information. It’s not a field most people think about going into, but one that people tend to fall into randomly and find out they love it. I did! (My own educational background is in journalism.)

        8. Archie Goodwin*

          Another area you might want to look at: records management. I work in the field in DC – there’s quite a bit of opportunity available, at least in the government/contracting realm. Furthermore, it seems to me that there’s been an increased focus on it among government agencies over the past few years, so the chance to break into the field is growing.

          It’s not quite librarian-ing, but it uses a lot of the same qualifications (there’s a focus on archiving, for instance, and understanding proper filing behavior). And some of my best colleagues have MLSes.

          Not the most obvious field to be in, perhaps, but I’ve found it extremely rewarding over the past few years.

          1. Bertha*

            As a librarian who started in records management.. there is a lot of overlap in skills needed! I think this is a great suggestion.

            1. Imprudence*

              In the UK at the moment there is a *huge* shortage of record managers and entry level people are snapped up like gold dust. Everyone is desperately trying to become gdpr compliant. Might that interest you?

        9. LolNope*

          I was just on a year-long hiring committee for 4 tenure track librarian positions. There were hundreds of applications from all over the US and beyond. It’s a really tough market with no signs of getting any better. Good luck!

    3. Bertha*

      Without knowing anything about your field, it’s hard to say with much confidence, but some ideas I have..
      1. I’m a fan of looking at people’s profiles on LinkedIn who are in jobs I’d be interested in, and seeing what trajectory got them to where they are. Sometimes that gives me ideas (or inspiration).
      2. Some organizations are more open to hiring people without supervisory experience for supervisory jobs, although it’s hard to know without applying. It’s kind of a numbers game. There are jobs I thought I was a shoo-in for that I never heard a peep about, and jobs I didn’t think I had any chance of that resulted in an interview. Cast a wide net with the jobs you apply to.
      3. Maybe try to see how you can build experience and add more responsibilities to your current role? Something like managing an intern, for example.

      1. Bertha*

        I see above you want to be a librarian – I am a librarian!

        Others suggested above, moving if you can, and I have to agree that if possible, it will be helpful. I know a few people who I graduated with (8 years ago) that still haven’t found librarian jobs.. but that is especially difficult if you live in an area that has, well, a handful of librarian jobs to start, and doubly so if there are library schools nearby. I also knew people who pretty much only wanted to work in a certain type of library (usually public or academic), which was also limiting. I was able to move from a mid-sized city to a very large city, and there are just so many more jobs available here.. if you are willing to think outside the box.

        My background is entirely in corporate libraries. It seems to me like there is much less competition for jobs in corporate libraries, because most librarians want to work at a university or a public library. I remember when I hired an intern, we only got two applications from people who were in MLIS programs, despite putting the job on multiple lists that I had used while a student, and paying pretty well for it. And there are so many options for people with library skills – I work in healthcare, but I previously worked in engineering, and I have interviewed for positions at universities, law firms, a bank, and a financial consulting firm. Adding on to #1 above – I would often look at the experience of the person who ended up getting hired in the position I interviewed for, and they always had more experience related specifically to the position if it was at a university. In corporations, that wasn’t always the case — sometimes it was someone with less experience! You never know.

        1. Junior Assistant Peon*

          Are corporate libraries still around? In my field (chemistry), a lot of companies are getting rid of them in the misguided belief that “everything you need is on the Internet today, so we can save money by throwing these old books in the trash and firing the librarian.” I’ve got a good chunk of a previous employer’s former library stashed in my attic right now, and I miss having access to librarians who specialized in scientific literature.

          1. Bertha*

            My last company still has a physical library and a corporate librarian. My current company has multiple librarians but no physical library.. though we never had a physical library, so perhaps I should refer to “corporate librarian positions” rather than “corporate libraries.” I am certainly familiar with the trend of getting rid of corporate libraries.. but I feel like the tide is turning. It depends a lot on who advocates for librarians/the library.. but that is true of even public libraries, school libraries, etc. Lots of employees really love having a corporate librarian to assist with projects and research, but I find that I’d often assist earlier career staff, and of course those staff members don’t have as much “pull” to keep a librarian on staff.

            As time passes, I don’t think it makes sense for many companies to have physical libraries, especially with so many people working all over the country even at smaller companies. (Of course, I found many publishers in STEM would put such an insane prices on digital subscriptions that it actually was much cheaper to get multiple copies of text books for $300 each vs. paying $20000 for an enterprise subscription… neither here nor there…) But there are still librarian/research skills needed at those companies!

            1. Junior Assistant Peon*

              If you’re an industrial chemist working in a subject area where the fundamental science was worked out decades ago, like rubber chemistry or leather chemistry or something like that, a 60-year-old book is still extremely useful.

              Scientific publishing is a scam. I can understand why paper journals were expensive back in the day, but now that current journals are paperless, the publishers are laughing all the way to the bank.

          2. Princesa Zelda*

            Entertainment and fashion companies definitely still have libraries. It’s really hard to digitize a dress!

    4. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Is there anybody you trust to have a look at your resume? It’s possible that your description of your experience and accomplishments is not played up as well as it should be, which might be keeping possible employers from seeing how great you really are. If you know anybody who’s involved with hiring or there’s a job/career center near you, it couldn’t hurt to get another set of eyes on your documents to make sure they’re as good as they can be.

    5. Eleanor Rigby's Jar*

      If you want a different position at your current company — try heading up a volunteer project. The person who organized our company picnic/blood drive used that to get more project management roles, and managing the workers involved in the project allowed her to become a manager (that supervised people).

      1. lilsheba*

        Not on topic at all I just want to say that the one going by Eleanor Rigby’s Jar is brilliant, I love that handle!

    6. Overeducated*

      Are you applying for stretch jobs? Not just ones that are a step up that you feel fully qualified for, but ones that actually feel like a big jump that you’re less confident about? The results may surprise you….

    7. Student Success Librarian*

      I have an MLIS, and work as a librarian at a small liberal arts college. I had to relocate when I first graduated. The area I went to school in is over-saturated with librarians, and I think my willingness to move went a long way. After two years in my first position (where I was an evening librarian), I was able to relocate back to the state where I went to grad school.
      A few of my friends worked as paraprofessionals in libraries after they graduated with their MLIS, my (outsider) observation was that they were location-focused instead of position-focused. When they shifted their focus to position, they were able to find work that allowed them to move up, but they had to move.

    8. LilySparrow*

      I once had a temp job as an assistant to the archivist at the retail division of a large media company. They owned a lot of creative content and produced many different ranges of licensed products, from t-shirts and toys to high-end pop-culture collectables.

      The archivist was in charge of organizing and pulling reference material for the designers, as well as keeping the various design drafts and product specs available, in case the art directors wanted to roll back changes to an earlier draft, or spin off the design into a new product range.

      It was very interesting work, and I had never known before that there were in-house “librarians” in media and manufacturing! If I had not had another career trajectory in mind, it would have been a logical progression from hourly assistant to the archivist position, or possibly into a more specialized liaison for a specific brand or product line.

      The parent company was in NY and LA, but the retail division was in a regional midsized city. It might be worth exploring different sorts of product design to see how widely these sort of positions exist.

    9. periwinkle*

      Another possible field to explore… organizations, especially large ones, need people with librarian-type skills to handle knowledge management and curation. There is a ton of explicit and tacit knowledge floating around a company; someone who understands records management and curation and taxonomy and so forth would be an asset.

    10. Jdc*

      I worked for a temp agency. That opened the door to a position I could do but per their actual desires I was not qualified for.

    11. NorthernMLIS*

      Also, under NAFTA/whatever the new one is called, librarians are on the list of professions that can easily get a work visa in Canada/US/Mexico. That’s how I got my first 2 jobs as a librarian–I knew I could get the permit, and so I was able to look in the US as well as Canada. ALA accreditation works up here too….worth a shot.

    12. LibrarianToo*

      Do you have experience working in libraries? I am an adult services librarian in a public library and know it can be really difficult to get a job! The number one piece of advice I have is getting library experience. I know a lot of times libraries will be hesitant to hire people who have the MLIS for lower positions, but I definitely suggest trying to get an information services/programming position which will prepare you for a librarian position. Almost everyone I know who got a librarian job after graduating (including myself) had years of experience or were willing to move to less ideal areas. Even though it seems less than ideal, a lot of times, it can be really temporary. One of my coworkers worked at a library in a super rural, conservative area for less than a year and then got a job in her ideal area (in a place with a library school/lots of MLIS). It’s hard in libraries, because the job really isn’t taught in school, but through experience. With a few years of experience and an MLIS, I think it’s a lot easier to get positions! Good luck!

  3. K.H. Wolf*

    What classes or trainings have you taken (not through a college) that you feel have been valuable in your career? How did you find good professional development classes or training sessions? Are there any conglomerate resources that you would recommend, or does it just depend too much on the individual class/instructor?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Getting Google Analytics certified has definitely helped my career. Google’s Analytics Academy is free, but the certification is 100% recognized and valuable.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          There’s way less math than you’d think! It’s more about how to use the different tools and interpreting the data than calculations you do yourself. If you have an interest, totally check it out! It’s free and pretty simple to sign up, who knows you might really like it/have a knack for it!

    2. Bird Person*

      I joined a professional society in my field, and took their prep course for accreditation (and got the accreditation). The really valuable piece for me was the structured class time to discuss and build relationships with peers and mentors. It also really built my confidence that even though I’ve fallen into my field, I really do know what I’m talking about!

      1. Nessun*

        Seconding this. I got o e and then a second designation through a professional organization in my field. They’re not required for my job, so they really make me stand out- and they require CPE, so I’m constantly taking webinars and courses to get my credits, which also looks good to managers.

    3. Buttons*

      I belong to 2 professional organizations, and there are a lot of training/certifications I can get through them. In addition to webinars and lunch and learns. It has also been great because now I get invited to speak at their conferences, give a lunch and learn or a webinar, not to mention the networking!

    4. wingmaster*

      This is related to my industry (apparel), but I’ve been attending a lot of free workshops hosted by CottonWorks. I learned a lot about market/trend analysis, supply chain, identifying production problems and how to solve them. I’ve even received a bit of color training as well. I feel it’s super valuable in my career, since school didn’t really cover this.

    5. Llama Wrangler*

      The professional organizations in my field have been the most useful, both for their own trainings and for hearing about others that people recommend. Also, if you’re in non-profits the Management Center trainings are really good (not surprisingly since Alison works with them).

    6. Sunflower*

      I think you need to figure out what YOU really need to improve on. My boss sent me to a class on how to be persuasive. It was helpful but everyone in the class was light-years ahead of me in the professional world and were mostly management trying to get buy in from employees. I was a pretty junior employee responsible for persuading c-level stakeholders on things they knew nothing about it. I ended up taking a class on how to get things done when you have no authority which was way more helpful.

      I’ve taken classes through AMA and also through local professional societies. I’d advise to try to mail down what you really are looking to improve on and finding niche classes for that.

      1. Marion Q*

        I ended up taking a class on how to get things done when you have no authority which was way more helpful.

        What’s the name of the class and how did you find it? Which institutions provide this kind of class? I’m really interested!

        2. Sunflower*

          I took it with AMA(American Management Association) and the class was called Getting Results Without Authority. They have lots of classes in the US and even classes outside I believe.

        3. OtterB*

          I don’t know about classes, but I can recommend the book “Getting It Done: How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge” by Roger Fisher and Alan Sharpe. I read it years ago but remember it as having helpful strategies.

    7. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I’m in HR, and it honestly kind of sucks that so much (honestly, most) of the professional development that is done in my field is done by vendors trying to sell their products (so, by remarkable coincidence, my field is very into Data! and Video Interviewing! And AI! If you listened to these vendors you would assume it was literally impossible to be good at HR without tech platforms).

      So, the most valuable ones to me have tended to be ones not put on for profit. I recall that the IRS did a big one-day seminar on Unrelated Business Income (I work in nonprofits), and that was really, really valuable. I also learned a lot from a 2 day graphic design course put on by the New Organizing Institute (RIP), which was nonprofit itself.

    8. Quill*

      When I worked in a microbiology lab and my site had a training week for offsite permanent hires, I got permission to sit in and learned a lot about the non-academic business stuff relating to microbiology, it prepared me really well for my next micro job.

      Right now I’m looking for some free VBA courses either online or in town because I’ve started finding stuff to do in excel in my current role that makes me think I’m going to need it going forward.

    9. CheeryO*

      Definitely look into professional organizations for your field. Many of them in my field offer really high-quality webinars and in-person training sessions, and typically you don’t need to be a member to attend, although you might have to pay a little extra.

    10. Alternative Person*

      I took a Diploma level qualification recently. Honestly, I had rough time with it. I don’t want to say it was pointless, because it really improved/reaffirmed my work practices and gave me the opportunity for some real feedback (not available with my main job), but the course assumed a lot of support and resources that (In my personal opinion) are not easily available to people working in middling companies who need the diploma to move on/up.

      It worked out for me in the end, getting a portion of the diploma was enough to get a contract position at a better company that could provide the resources/support to finish the course. Now that I have it, I have a fairly open ended option to use the qualification as part of an MA, and the pay rise from the contract position means the diploma will effectively pay for itself within three years, as well as having access to the better resources and training options at this place.

      You haven’t stated your field, but when it comes to additional training, ask yourself, What will it get you? Will you be able to work at a better company/get a promotion/pay rise/etc.?

      Also, look for online reviews and for the not so good ones, ask yourself, Is the price of this stress/Potentially difficult tutor/Semi-tedious busy work/etc. worth it?

      For me, they didn’t put me off, but they did save me some surprise when I did run into all those things as ultimately I needed the diploma to go anywhere and the option I took was the only one that worked with my schedule.

    11. MicrobioChic*

      This is really field specific, but large data sets are becoming a lot more common in science, so I took a week long workshop on using R, including specific classes on data visualization, and I’ve found it very helpful.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I got a certificate in data science recently (learning R) just to refresh my stats skills and it’s about to come in very handy with some large data sets coming in. I don’t think it will make a substantive difference to my career – we have a dedicated group that could process the data for me – but I thought it was a valuable experience anyway. If I were on the job market it would be a selling point for sure.

    12. only acting normal*

      My science degree included a module in communication – the most valuable bit was how to present well. Things like structure, appropriate visual materials (sometimes none is good), tailoring for the audience and the time slot.
      (A presenting course through my work’s professional training provider covered similar ground. But the worst presenters always refuse to go on it, usually due to misplaced confidence. *sigh*)
      Now, it’s definitely not my favourite task, and it doesn’t always go perfectly, but I’m confident I do better presentations than most people I work with, most of the time. (And I get good feedback.)

    13. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’ve taken a couple of Dale Carnegie classes that have helped me sharpen up my presentation skills. I’m in sales/recruiting so I like to think I’m pretty social as is but it’s always good to keep those things fresh.

      I’ve also gotten a lot of mileage out of the LinkedIn Learning platform, specifically when I first broke into IT recruiting. I had very little IT experience and those sessions did a great job of breaking down the different programming languages and at least giving me a framework to work within so that I only sounded mostly clueless when I was talking to candidates instead of completely clueless.

    14. Peggy*

      communication trainings. Company internal, but similar trainings do exist outside, too.

      I found it extremely helpful to get feedback on how I communicated and how to get better at it – lots of role playing and feedback during the training. It is still extremely hard to fundamentally change things in real life, but at least it helped me a lot in understanding why sometimes people do not react the way I wish/expect them to and how to adapt my behavior to reach my goals.

    15. Mama Bear*

      I am not an engineer but attending a DevOpsDays event was very helpful to me to understand terms that were floating around the office.

    16. LunaLena*

      I think this really depends on what field you are in. I work mostly in graphic design, so the free courses on the Adobe Education Exchange have been invaluable to me in learning to use different software and see what kind of tools Adobe CC as a whole can offer me. The practical assignments are usually pretty easy to fit into my schedule and have done more to teach me than years of trying to figure stuff out on my own did. They even give you a nice little certificate and badge when you complete each course.

    17. Aquawoman*

      I took a weekend workshop called Respectful Confrontation (run by Joe Weston). I took it for personal reasons but it has helped me a ton in my work life as well. (My employer actually wound up bringing him in a little after I did the workshop/not my doing)/

    18. Fikly*

      So this happened at my college, but it doesn’t have to. And it’s not a specific class.

      Do something that forces you to work on a team, ideally with random and changing teams and team members. I had a team for each five week course, 5 members, rotating team lead, assignment every week. I hated it, but it forced me to learn teamwork skills, and it’s been incredibly valuable, and I would imagine almost universal to any career.

    19. Snake in the Grass*

      I learned a second language. In my case, I learned one of the other official languages of my country. Even though I’m nowhere near fluent it has been exceptionally helpful for a whole variety of reasons beyond actual language competence. I did my course through a national organisation and have a recognised certificate for it.

    20. I Like Math*

      I took a course to become a certified mediator. I had multiple people ask me about it in interviews, even though it has nothing to do with my job directly. Employers really liked it.

  4. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

    Reason #5837 why I love my new manager:

    Former Manager (who I now only dotted line report to), the one I’ve mentioned a few times in the open threads and said she’s petty, two-faced, and passive-aggressive, tried to have me manage a big proposal the other day (which I was NOT hired to do), and New Manager shut that shit down.

    The backstory: Former Manager is down two proposal managers (one’s on leave until next year and the other was fired) and then two more of her direct reports are on overlapping vacation. The work is piling up on their team, so she started pulling in other people who dotted line report to her from another team to help. Well, she talked to grandboss and, according to her, he suggested that she have me work on one of the proposals as a stand-in PM, so she assigns the project to me and sends my manager an email on his day off saying I was going to be doing this project. Mind you, she didn’t ask – she just told him that’s what she was going to do.

    So I know nothing about any of this until New Manager comes back the next day and says, “What is this I hear about you managing a proposal?” I told him I had no earthly idea what he was talking about, so he said he’ll look into it and get back to me. Meanwhile, I attend a team call with Former Manager’s team (I usually do because my job function makes it so that I end up editing their work), and she tells everyone on the call about this project and says I’ll be leading it. I’m annoyed at this point because the project scope is unclear, we don’t know anything about the product, there’s no assigned sales manager because this product is so new, and I have fifty million other things I’m doing for my actual manager. But I say nothing, fully planning to bring this to New Manager’s attention during our next 1:1.

    Well, turns out I didn’t have to wait until then because New Manager brings it up on our team call. He asked me to explain what was going on, so I reiterated what Former Manager said during her team call. New Manager said, “Yeah, no. I understand her predicament, and I sympathize, but we didn’t hire you to be a PM. I’m going to talk to Grandboss because I was under the impression you were just going to help clean up the writing like you always do. You don’t have time to be managing a proposal when you have work to do for my team – I need you.” I told him I was relieved because I was NOT looking forward to that at all, and we both laughed, and he said he understood and he’d take care of it.

    Sure enough, a half hour or so later, Former Manager sends a retraction email out telling the product owner that she’ll be the PM handling the project, not me (yes, she preemptively sent out an email telling the product team to reach out to me as the PM without speaking to New Manager). New Manager most likely dialed up Grandboss like, “WTF?!” Seriously, Former Manager has been doing nothing but undermining New Manager since I arrived in this job, and going behind his back when she knew he wasn’t even in the office to recruit one of his two team members for a major project that could last weeks and conflict with the stuff he already has planned for me to work on was yet another one of her shady tactics.

    I get that Former Manager was used to being the HBIC in this department before grandboss and New Manager came along, and she might be feeling some type of way about having to now work with other people instead of just unilaterally making decisions for the department, but she needs to get over it and get over herself. She can’t keep twisting grandboss’s words to try to get her way (come to find out, grandboss did NOT actually suggest I lead anything) and think New Manager’s always going to roll over for her ass – she’s totally disrespectful, and the more she does shit like this, the less respect I have for her.

    Anyway, I was just very happy with New Manager for standing up not only for himself, but also standing up for me. He kept telling me to let him know if “they” (he really meant sneaky Former Manager) were trying to make me do more on this project than just cleaning up the language because he doesn’t want me to be doing something I’m not paid to do. A lot of managers probably would have just gone along to get along, but he wasn’t having it. So now not only do I know that he’s going to constantly sing my praises to everyone in the company (he’s always introducing me to people as the subject matter expert and saying he doesn’t know how this company would survive without me), but he’ll also fight to protect my time and energy from being wasted on things I have no desire to do. I’m so happy they removed me from out from under Former Manager – New Manager’s awesome!

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      This is an excellent story. I’m so glad you’ve got a boss who’ll speak up for you!

    5. Granger Chase*

      This is amazing! I’m so happy that you’ve now got a much more supportive manager who is willing to have your back, especially when it comes to issues with former manager (who I really hope is one day not just your former manager, but a former manager overall because she definitely does not need to be supervising anyone!).

    7. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

      Thanks, everyone! I really do feel grateful to have a boss who always tells me he’ll take bullets for me if people in our company try to foist their work off on me or if they get upset with me for doing something he’s asked me to do – in my nearly 10 years of post-grad work, I’ve never had another manager who goes this hard for his team. I’ll be bummed to see him leave when he eventually moves on (he’s rotating through the company, so we have no idea how long he’ll stick around).

  5. A Simple Narwhal*

    Has anyone ever had any close calls at work? A “oh god if anyone had found out it would have been a disaster” story?

    I worked a retail job after college as an assistant manager type. Most of the time there was a manager working, but occasionally I would be the highest seniority person on a shift. It wasn’t a big store either, at most there would be 4 or 5 people working, and at slow times it would be only two people. The store was in a mall, so for meal breaks employees usually went to the food court, which meant that if it was a slow two-person shift, one person would be left alone for the other’s break. NBD, breaks were only 15-30 minutes, plus we had headsets so if there was an emergency you could ping the other person, but I can’t think of any instance of this actually happening.

    Anywho, I’d been there a few months and I’m working an overlapping shift with my manager. It’s nearing the end of my shift and my manager says she needs to take her break soon before I leave. I ask why, and she says there’s no other keyholders scheduled for the rest of her shift, so she won’t be able to leave the store once I’m gone. I’m thinking how this is the first I’ve heard of this rule when I hear her say “…yea it’s grounds for immediate termination.”

    She goes off to take her break and I’m left to realize I’d been unknowingly committing a fireable offense for months. Sure, in hindsight it makes sense that there should always be someone with manager access and keys in the store, but this very important rule was never communicated to me during training.

    So yea, I never ever did that again but I thank my lucky stars that an issue never came up or someone important never stopped by (district managers often made random rounds to check on stores).

    TLDR: Unknowingly committed a fireable offense for months, could have been easily discovered but miraculously never was. Found out about the rule offhand and never did it again.

    1. Wordnerd*

      I don’t know if it would have gotten me fired, but I once left my department-assigned laptop in an open classroom/lab overnight. Miraculously, it was still there the next day and I never had to tell anyone about it. Not sure what would have happened if it had been stolen!

        1. valentine*

          A Simple Narwhal: Unless you were a manager/keyholder, I don’t think the onus was on you to know their schedules/whereabouts. They should’ve had a protocol amongst themselves.

          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            I was a keyholder, just no one told me there had to be one in the store at all times, without exception! I think it might have been because I trained in a bigger store that always had 2+ keyholders assigned to every shift so it was never going to be an issue, whereas I ended up working in a store that sometimes only had 1 keyholder + 1 associate on a shift.

          2. Jungerludendorff*

            Narwhal had a manager-ish role and was sometimes the most senior person on the shift, so they may have actually been the keyholder.

      2. Ruby314*

        Also a story about forgetting a laptop: I was picking up a CSA share for a friend who was out of town, and I put down my tote bag that had my work laptop in it to put all the veggies into another bag. Well, I realized when I was halfway home on a bus that I’d left the laptop bag. It was at a random pottery studio that just happened to be serving as the location for the CSA pickup, and they did not seem to have a website or phone number that I could find by googling on my phone. I hopped off the bus, got a cab to take me back (which I couldn’t really afford but I could much less afford to be fired) and knocked on the door of this building with multiple studios until someone opened it and let me in. At this point, it’s over an hour later and past the end of the CSA pickup time. The room was miraculously unlocked and the bag was sitting there all innocent, surrounded by unfired pottery. I still get nightmares about it sometimes.

        1. Nessun*

          We had a new hire (6 mos in) leave their company laptop on the train to work one day. Luckily someone turned it in and it was located when we called the train’s lost and found, but he very nearly wet himself when he realized what he’d done.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      I once did made a software update that had a change no one realized. We accidentally pushed this change live, and miraculously, we didn’t break anything.

    3. Beatrice*

      I was still in my first couple of months as a teller in a small bank branch located inside a grocery store. I arrived at work one Sunday morning (we were open weekends and most holidays) around the same time as my manager. He wasn’t feeling well when he left home 45 minutes earlier, and had gotten worse over his commute, with sharp pains in the right side of his abdomen. He was calling around for coverage so he could head or the ER as we were going through our branch opening routines, but about 10 minutes in, decided to abandon opening and have me drive him to the hospital. He told me, and then immediately started walking out to the parking lot. I was new – I was panicky and didn’t know how to lock the vault or arm the alarm yet and I didn’t have a key to the door in front of the vault. All that stood between grocery store shoppers and the money was a chest-height counter and a closed but unlocked vault door. There was an exterior door that I locked, and I turned the lights off, but at the time there was no door or gate to close off the counter.

      It turned out that my boss needed an emergency appendectomy, and I got him to the hospital in time. I returned to work and was met a few minutes later by another bank employee who helped me open about a half hour late. Because I returned first, she didn’t know about me leaving things unlocked. I confessed to my manager when he returned from medical leave, and he said it was his fault I didn’t know how to close up correctly yet, but we agreed it was best that no one else know what happened.

      2. Dr. Chakwas*

        Several years ago, I was a videographer in a large city, which required me to commute by subway to various events with a very expensive camera and tripod (which belonged to the organization I worked for, not me). One evening I was waiting for a train and when it arrived I got up from the little waiting bench and just breezed on in, completely leaving the equipment behind. I turned around at the last second, saw what I’d done and lunged out of the rapidly closing doors. To this day it still makes me sick to think about what would have happened had I not turned around at that exact moment and made it off the train in time.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      In one of my earliest jobs, I managed a spreadsheet that tracked the department’s PTO. I wrote a formula wrong and under-calculated someone’s PTO usage. She got 3 extra PTO days because of it!

    5. WellRed*

      I worked at a small printing and copy place. I stopped in one Saturday (when we were closed), to, oh, use the bathroom and park my car. And then walked over to the art festival nearby. I went back to pick up my car and realized I’d not only left the door unlocked, I’d left my keys hanging in the lock!

    6. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

      When I was a subrogation adjuster working for an insurance company and was supposed to be pursuing a third party’s insurance company for reimbursement of the costs we paid on a bodily injury claim for one of our insured truck drivers, I collected 100% of the costs (i.e., medical bills, his downtime/disability payments, and his deductible) back from the insurer. You’re thinking, that’s a good thing, right? My company ended up not being out a single red cent on that claim and my insured got his deductible back. Problem was, the state of Maryland says you can’t pursue a third party in a bodily injury claim for reimbursement of medical bills sustained as a result of an auto accident. I had no idea when I sent my demand package to the other insurer, and the adjuster handling that claim for them obviously didn’t either because she cut me the check, which included coverage for his medical expenses. Whoops.

      When my manager pointed this out to me, I was horrified that, should we ever be audited by the Department of Insurance, and this was discovered, I’d get us fined or we’d have to issue an ex gratia payment (which no insurer ever wants to do) to reimburse the third party carrier for their reimbursement of the medical bills. My boss told me it was fine, she just wanted to point that out to me so that I didn’t include those costs going forward for accidents that happened in that state, but that really would have been useful information to receive before I sent my demand.

    7. Quill*

      So, I was in R&D, and one of the PhD’s had just lost an entire lab notebook. I wasn’t looped into all the drama (security cameras were checked, cubes were physically dismantled,) but IMMEDIATELY after I was cosigning my supervisor’s lab notebook, as was standard, and accidentally left it out on my unsecured, shared desk overnight. When I turned up in the morning, it was gone, and I panicked, until the chemist who sat next to me pulled it out of his drawer – he’d heard about the missing lab book and quite sensibly locked it up for me.

    8. Witchy Human*

      I was closing the office by myself, and I failed to both lock the door and set the alarm. If I hadn’t been the one to open the next day, I would definitely have lost that job. (I mean, I would have fired me).

    9. Oh Snap!*

      I was a producer on a large multi-day photo shoot and booked one of the models for the wrong day and didn’t realize until we were on set an hour away. I told my boss, called the guy’s agent and arranged a car to drive him out. Luckily he was available and we didn’t need him until the afternoon so the client and photographer never found out. Once you make a big mistake the smaller ones are a lot easier to handle.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        I attended a communication awards event once when I was a pup and found myself at a table with some major big guns in their field/firms. EVERY one of them had a story about a huge mistake they’d made early in their career that still made them cringe.

    10. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I once realized I was sitting on almost a million dollars in unpaid ambulance bills. The purchasing folks were renegotiating the contract and told me to hold onto the bills until that was done, so I just kept chucking them into a folder and forgetting about them. They never told me the contract was sorted, but I also never followed up with them to find out what the story was, because we were understaffed by half and drowning in other work too.

      Finally I got an email one day from our CFO with the interim like six levels of management between me and her CC’ed, going “So uh, how come the CFO of (Ambulance Company) just called me to ask why we haven’t paid them in almost a year?” When my boss came to find me I was literally sitting on the floor under my desk bawling on a folder of ambulance bills because I was positive I was going to be perp-walked out the door that day. But she gave me a pep talk about not letting that happen again, I slammed them all through processing that day, and they were paid (or at least submitted for payment and out of my hands) by the end of the week, and nobody ever mentioned it again. I worked there for another four years and never forgot another ambulance bill :P

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        OMG, poor thing!

        Really though, they waited ALMOST A YEAR to ask where their money was. I’m glad you didn’t get in trouble because that right there shows that it really wasn’t that big of a deal in the end. But I can see why you panicked so bad.

        You don’t pay me for over a month when you owe me money, I’m calling and issuing statements immediately. So tbh I’m judging that Ambulance company so hard.

        1. Derjungerludendorff*

          On top of that, the problem was caused in the first place because nobody talked to Red Reader and management understaffed them.

          A lot of other people were at least partially responsible here.

    11. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Yup, just this week I printed a wire transfer form with bank information for both our company and the recipient. Our printer is a shared Received a phone call just as I hit print. I got distracted by the call and so all of the banking information sat on a shared print device in the hallway for close to an hour before I realized it was still there and scrambled to go grab it.

    12. MOAS*

      Not sure if this counts as one, but I used to work at an office that shared a store. Basically there was one big shutter, that if you opened it, you’d see two doors–the store and my office.

      Around 8-9 PM, I was working late, and I went ot use the restroom which was in that small office. I was finishing up when I HEARD THE SHUTTERS CLOSE! I rushed out of there, and banged on teh shutters, and the person who put it down came back around. That was a terrifying moment. It’s been 7 years so I forgot if I told anyone or whatever happened but..yeah. thatw as a close cal.

    13. Mazzy*

      Need to keep it vague. I ended up submitting data to an authority that was wrong. It was a time and place years ago where small errors opened there can of worms to be audited and getting fined a huge amount. I never said anything because I was so young and new, and no one ever caught it, and it had no large impact at the end of the day. But the guilt of someone finding it and then spot checking everything, or fining us for not telling, was huge for years. The next time I made an error I reported it and it lost is money, but I didn’t wait until the statute of limitations had passed (maybe the wrong word) in which case the penalty was worse. Again, I’m being vague on purpose.

    14. Margali*

      I organize the annual company dinners. A few years ago, I had been talking to the restaurant about 2 possible dates. We eventually went with Date A. It wasn’t until 5 days before the event, when I was going over some details with the restaurant event manager, that I discovered that they had as down as Date B. (This despite my many emails with the subject line “Company dinner on Date A.”) They were able to clear the decks and get the food in and everything went really well on Date A, but I was feeling shaky in the car driving there because I kept imagining myself having to tell the CEO and 80 other people that they had driven all the way to the restaurant for nothing.

    15. LGC*

      I overcharged a customer by $15,000 accidentally (I tried to make an edit in the PO SAAS and it glitched). On an account that was roughly $200,000, so not a small fraction.

      The customer paid.

      The COO told me when he saw the payments didn’t line up.

      Fortunately, we were able to issue a credit and things worked out. But honestly, I was thinking that I’d fire me or at least put me on a PIP. (I don’t make edits in the purchase order site anymore because of that as well.)

    16. Ama*

      I realized at 6:00 am the morning of an event that we hadn’t ordered the projector and screen set up for our lunch presentations — which as we are a nonprofit, and the lunch presentations were from the sponsors funding that particular event, would have been an absolute disaster and probably endangered future donations from those sources.

      There were extenuating circumstances why it never got caught until that morning (including a walkthrough meeting that was hijacked by a volunteer who kept sidetracking the discussion from an orderly review of the plans, and the fact that we were already doing twice as many events as we’d usually do in that period), although that wouldn’t have mattered to my boss. Luckily, because it wasn’t until lunch time and I was able to grab the venue crew while they were setting up for breakfast and put the order in, my boss never found out about it and the sponsoring presenters thought we had put together an extremely well organized event.

    17. Spreadsheets and Books*

      One time, I accidentally dropped a client check for $11K I was supposed to be depositing into a mailbox with the rest of the correspondence I was mailing on my way to the bank.

      I had to chase down the mailman in 95 degree Florida heat on foot in heels (luckily the check was still in the envelope the client sent it in, albeit opened) and beg him for it back. No one ever found out.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Check out a movie called “Cause for Alarm,” I believe the star is Loretta Young. You might relate to part of it…

    18. Atlantian*

      I once spent months working in an accidentally locally saved version of an Access Database rather than the one saved to the server. Thankfully, when we were making entries, there was a field where you had to put your initials so you could be credited in the report later. Once we figured it out, I ended up having to stay over for a week or so and making sure all my entries got copied over into the master file.

    19. Kiwiii*

      I used to work in the pricing department of a grocery store. The way we did the liquor sales is that we would make a file with all the prices to take off of sale/return to regular price, and then another file with all the prices to put on sale price, to be applied the morning of the sale. I was trained very well, but the store owner had a very critical eye on our department because the person I’d been hired to replace had been skimming money somehow. About two months into doing the files on my own, I’d been recently put under pressure to work more quickly, which resulted in my somehow accidentally doing a LIVE EDIT of the store’s prices!! It then took 2 or 3 times the time it should have to put all the sale prices from that week back and redo the file for next week -.-

      No one ever realized what I’d done, but for an hour or two I had about two hundred liquor prices super incorrect. And I definitely didn’t improve my reputation of being too slow.

      1. Kiwiii*

        I just thought of one from when I was an admin.

        I did most of the interview set up because my boss was Crazy busy, including reserving rooms, scheduling the interviews, making sure interviewees knew what to expect, and notifying the security desk. I had been in the role maybe 6 months, had done the process once before with lots of help, and didn’t have any documentation to reference to make sure I had everything completed. We had a round of interviews scheduled, but at about 2PM the day before, I realized I’d forgotten to send a ticket to IT (in the main building, about 15 minutes away) to borrow/reserve a laptop for the writing portion of the interview and to set up a guest wifi account to use it on (this is usually done at least 48 hrs ahead of time). If we didn’t have those things, we 100% wouldn’t be able to conduct that portion of the interview and my manager would Freak out at me. I called my friend in IT in a mild panic like “Please help, I’m so stupid.” and he swore at me a little, but snagged me one provided I could be there in a half hour before he left for the day and backdated a ticket for the wifi access to bump it to the top of the queue, then completed it for me while we were on the phone. And then I jumped in my car and drove over to grab the laptop from him. My boss never found out.

        Be nice to your IT people, y’all, because he Saved my life that day, (and like two other times in slightly less dramatic fashion.)

    20. detaill--orieted*

      Woodworking/cabinet shop; me, new, young, clueless. Big client was there around closing time going over plans with my big bosses. They needed a custom extra-thick door for a refrigerator, say 2′ x 3′. We had *one* piece of particleboard thick enough, say, 2-1/2′ x 3-1/2′. It’s late, my supervisor is gone, I’m tasked with cutting it down to size — by this date I may be new, but I’m certainly capable of making two cuts on a panel saw.

      So I cut it down — to 2′ x 2′. Yup, I cut it to the smaller dimension both times.

      My big bosses were kind.

    21. anna*

      In my first office job, I was a receptionist at a kind of dysfunctional company in an industry where companies send gift baskets around christmas to each other. My boss asked me to buy 3 gift baskets in a certain price range, have them sent to the office, and once they got here we’d put cards in them and send them to certain companies. Around this time we were also receiving gift baskets from other companies. My job with those was to open them and put the gift baskets in the break room, where they’d promptly get eaten/taken home by various employees. A couple days later, I got a package with 2 of the gift baskets I’d ordered… but I’d ordered three? I looked it up online and found the other one had been sent separately and arrived the day before, and I hadn’t realized it was the one I’d ordered, so I put it out and it had been eaten. I even remembered getting one without a card and being confused but not confused enough to realize what had happened I guess?

      Anyway I panicked, thought I’d get fired, and told my boss the third one had been delayed. I went home and bought one of the same gift baskets from the website and had it overnighted to the office (with my own money– I think with overnighting it was like 150-200$ and I was not very well paid, sigh) and I don’t think my boss was ever the wiser. I was so scared, though.

    22. Annonnymooses*

      Technically, not locking your computer when you leave line-of-sight is a firing offense in my company. I may or may not forget on occasion…or, more usually, I plan to just dip into the kitchen 20 feet away and grab my tea and then someone grabs me with a raging!fire!Must!Come!Help! and we go charging off to fix The Problem and holy crap, my computer has been unlocked for 45 minutes.

      However, this also technically only applies when we have escorted visitors behind the locked doors and that rarely happens.

    23. Anonymous tech writer*

      Still in my probation period as a technical writer, I imported a Word draft into the FrameMaker template. I was new enough that I had extra reviewers and none of them noticed that the draft showed the current draw in microamps but the formatted doc showed it in milliamps. Word inserts symbols by using different fonts, and FrameMaker blew that away. When “mu” changed to “m” that changed the current draw by three orders of magnitude.
      I caught the error after doc release but before product shipped.

  6. Seifer*

    Some of my coworkers are absolutely, 100% not self-starters. Which is… fine, I suppose, but when I have to keep reminding them over and over and over that I need this submittal in because the item in question needs to get approved and to site, like, stat, otherwise we can’t close the walls, which means that we’ll be delayed finishing out that floor, which means that we can’t get finishes in, which means that literally! The whole floor will be holding up the completion date of the project which is already like three months behind schedule! And then they tell me. Oh yeah I guess I’ll do that today or something. I want to throw their computers out the window because clearly they don’t need them! 

    I’m not your manager! I’m not your mentor! I’m not your mother! I don’t have time to handhold you through doing your friggin’ job! And then they sit on a call with the project manager who is screaming all of the same things that I’ve been telling them for the past two months and they’re just like. But why is he mad at me????? Now I want to scream.

    How do you impress upon someone that has zero sense of urgency that they need to have some sense of urgency? I keep having to report the schedule delays because that’s MY job and no amount of telling these people “hey man, you’re really screwing me and the whole project over when you do that” is getting through to them.

    1. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      Not your circus, not your monkeys. Stop reminding them over and over that they have work to do, and provide the facts as you report the schedule delays. As long as they’re being notified of the tasks and deadlines, it’s not up to you to make sure they are doing their jobs.

      I’m a Project Manager, and currently working on a project on which the developers are not moving at the speed that we need and there’s no way this project will be completed by the deadline. I track the progress and report on it, but it’s not my job to stand over the developers and make them move faster – that’s on their manager. If the project doesn’t get completed, it’s not because I didn’t do my job.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        That was the tactic I took when I was a proposal manager. If the sales team didn’t get me the information I needed to write certain sections of their proposals (because it was always sales holding up the process), I would tell them I was either going to make shit up, which they’d then have to explain to the customer why we can’t do what I put in the proposal, or I was going to submit the bid to the client with the blank sections in it, and then the salesperson could explain to their manager why our proposal was non-compliant and thrown out.

        1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

          Hit submit too soon. Anyway, once I communicated the above to the flaky salesperson, they suddenly gave me the work I had been requesting, sometimes for weeks. So basically, threatening can work, lol.

    2. chizuk*

      That doesn’t sound like an issue of not being a self-starter. I’m not particularly a self-starter, but I mean that in that I don’t go looking for things to do, I don’t make things more complicated, etc, in a way that my self-starter coworker has never found a tiny project she doesn’t want to spend 40 hours turning into something overly complicated. I make things simple and don’t go above and beyond what they ask for.

      What you’re describing sounds like people straight up not doing their jobs. You’re not their manager so you don’t have any control over them, but if what they’re doing is affecting your work negatively, your manager needs to be aware of it. You can’t kick them into doing their work, but it’s making you look bad, and your manager needs to know why, and maybe your manager can ge their manager on them to do their jobs.

      1. Seifer*

        Isn’t it, I don’t know. I took it to mean that they don’t take any initiative unless people are hovering over them and breathing down their necks. And… that’s my coworkers.

        1. QCI*

          Taking initiative would mean going above and beyond the scope of their job, these people are just lazy and not doing their job.

    3. Dot*

      Is there an actual manager you can go to? Can you forward all the delays to that person? This sounds awful.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        Yup, if threatening them to do their jobs doesn’t work, OP needs to escalate these issues to the colleague’s manager(s).

    5. Parenthetically*

      I think… you don’t. I think every time you get an assignment, you follow up the conversation with the assigning manager via email: “Per our conversation on 9/3, I requested a submittal from Bob and Frank (see below) on 9/4 requesting Project Component X be completed no later than 9/18 to allow for Project Components Y and Z to commence on 9/20.” Then on 9/16 you send ONE SINGLE reminder to Bob and Frank and cc the PM/their boss, “Hi Bob and Frank, just a reminder that Job X needs to be completed by 9/18 as requested on 9/4 (see below). Projects Y and Z are slated to start 9/20 and are ready to go.” Note that this is NOT for Bob and Frank’s benefit, but for the benefit of their managers/the PM. Follow-up and repeat ad nauseam, so PM/bosses can see that you’re doing your part but are stuck in line behind Bob and Frank, i.e. leave a mile-wide paper trail everywhere you go. I’d say, given your history with these folks, to do it as early as you can in the process and follow EVERYTHING up via email so you can point to your part of the work being completed or ready to be completed if not for their tardy asses.

      The mistake I made early in my career was trying to get people to feel a certain way about things. As I moved further along, I realized it’s not my job to change people’s feelings, or even their actions, just to do my job as far as I was able, and communicate clearly with them and whoever they answer to. Being able to emotionally detach meant I could loop in the folks above without feeling like I was tattling, because I could more clearly see that, actually, it WAS super-important for Boss Person to know that Fergus wasn’t doing his work and it was setting the whole team/project back, because Boss Person couldn’t make decisions without having that information.

      Obviously, I think it’s perfectly fine to bring all this to the PM and say, “Look, here’s a raft of emails from me trying to chase Bob and Fred down for the last three months to just do their damned work, there has to be something we can do so we can actually move forward with this project!”

      1. Little Pig*

        I think this is perfect advice. Broadcast that you are doing everything right and that the ball is in their court. It will become incredibly obvious that they are the ones wrecking the timeline!

    6. Wren*

      God I feel every word of this… My main problem is usually with subcontractors (including one which has sent me the same wrong submittal THREE times), in which case my advice is always to take it up the chain. Find their manager, or the manager’s manager, and explain clear consequences. “If you do not get me this, we will be late and we will charge your company $X per day.”

      In the case of people on your own team, I guess you can’t really do that so definitely loop in your manager on EVERYTHING. “I told Sarah I needed the submittal by Friday. I gave her a daily reminder but she still didn’t get it to me on time. What would you like me to do?” It sounds like your PM is getting involved but maybe you can have them intervene earlier.

      Ultimately though, even with being able to impose consequences on people, I still struggle with this so…. I feel your pain. It is SO frustrating. Sometimes I am calling daily and then they are somehow shocked when something is delayed.

      1. Seifer*

        Oh god, even the PM. He told me once that he doesn’t know what to do with this guy. PM has tried yelling, he’s tried threatening, he’s tried being nice, he’s tried sending emails, calling, skype, talking to the guy’s manager… it’s like, this guy just… he has no sense of urgency.

        And this guy isn’t on my team which just makes it even worse tbh. We all try talking to his manager and even his manager just shrugs and says that it’ll all work out fine. It… it will not. We’re so behind. LIQUIDATED DAMAGES ARE A THING OKAY.

        1. Boomerang Girl*

          Can you put a $ value on the cost of delays? Showing senior executives how this is affecting the bottom line tends to bring about change in my experience.

          Also, publicly (within the company) reporting all projects and all steps in the process with heatmap colors to identify where it was on time and on spec and where it wasn’t will quickly bring to light the problems.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Do your boss and his boss share the same big boss?
          Perhaps it is time to drag the big boss into this nonsense.
          I think you need to keep going up the ladder here since his boss is non-responsive.

    7. Aquawoman*

      This is one of those things where the problem affects you but you aren’t the one with the ability to solve it. This seems like a problem that needs to be fobbed off on their manager. If you can think of a system that could be implemented so that they can know to do their jobs, I’d suggest it (some sort of tracking/deadline system?). Otherwise, maybe have a conversation with their manager that you’re finding that priorities and timing are not clear and so things are not happening when they need to, and how can he help create that. I’m sorry, people who don’t understand that they work in an organization that is affected as opposed to being some sort of stand-alone widget maker, are frustrating.

    8. LGC*

      No advice, just…do you work where I work? Because our major project is over two months behind schedule and literally every deliverable has to be fixed after proofing. (There are at least three quality control checks before the final proofing, where it would be much easier to fix things. As in, we need to run all hundreds of thousands of images through the proof again if any one of them is bad.) No one sees a problem with this, apparently.

      I weakly suggested that they should aim to complete things by 2 PM so they can be delivered the next business day. Everything still gets completed at 5 PM and gets delayed another day.

      You might be wondering why I care about a project I don’t manage. I’m the one that charges for every project my department does.

    9. Wolfsbane*

      A few things you can do, not for this project but the next one.
      1) Have a debrief with their manager about the delays on this project when they are done. This is not a complain fest but to get aligned with manager on how to handle the next project.
      2) Build in false deadlines and delays for this team for the next project.
      3) Have a lead resource on that team. Assigning to a group without clear responsibilities is a great way to have people not do the work.

  7. Jedi Squirrel*

    Thank goodness it’s finally time for the Friday thread. I’m trying to figure out if this is overt racism or if not, what it is.

    I am taking a course to become a driver’s ed instructor. The instructor of this class has been doing this for 39 years, and she seems to have a weird fixation on students of color, especially boys, as she always has stories in which male Hispanic/Arabic/Chaldean students flummox her.

    She told this story which seemed to particularly delight her. A young Hispanic male drove himself to a driver’s ed class she was teaching. (She seemed particularly put out that he was driving a Cadillac Escalade.) This is obviously a no-no, but there are quite a few kids out there who don’t realize you can’t drive yourself to driver’s ed.

    My reaction would have been to take this kid aside and tell him that he needs to make arrangements for a licensed driver to come pick him up and to get a ride from that point further, because technically he’s breaking the law. Instead, she wrote “You are being watched” on a piece of paper, snuck out, and stuck it under his wiper. She then described (with a note of glee in her voice) that when class was over, she watched him read the paper and look around with a look of fear on his face. And I get it—the note didn’t specify why he was being watched, and in today’s political and social climate (this happened just last year), it is not always safe to be a person of color. I’m not surprised that he was panicked.

    Anyway, stories like this are starting to grind on me. My future employer is a friend and former colleague (more the latter than the former), and is also the person who arranged for me to take this course. She holds this instructor in high esteem, as she’s well-known in this area for what she does, and sits on several state and national DE boards.

    I’m trying just to ride this out, because once the course is over in December, I’ll probably never have to deal with this person again, but this still just irks me. Am I over-reacting by being bothered by this? (For the record, I’m a white-passing person of color who is really tired of this.) It’s unprofessional to say the least, but is it also racist? Should I say anything to my friend/future employer, and if so, what and when? Or just be glad that my time with this person is done, but still be irked by how she views these students?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Oh no that’s effed up. You should absolutely say something to your friend, the “You are being watched” note alone is grounds to say something.

          1. Librarian of SHIELD*

            ICE was my immediate thought. I have a coworker of Mexican descent who gets a lot of “I’ll report you to ICE” from angry customers, so I’m guessing a person of Latinx heritage would immediately make that mental leap.

            Also, this person is supposed to be a teacher. You do not teach people things with anonymous passive-aggressive notes. Even if you set aside the racism (which nobody should, because it’s awful), she is not as good a teacher as people think she is if her go to is an anonymous note on somebody’s car.

            1. Mama Bear*

              ICE threats aside, she’s saying this in class, right? So she’s teaching the next generation of Driver’s Ed instructors how to treat (or mistreat) students. That is not cool. At the very least I would probably say something to my boss in a “this really bothers me and I plan to finish the course, but I suggest you don’t send anyone to that program again” kind of way. I am not sure who you could or should report the instructor to. Lots of high-ranking people in orgs are still toads, and keep getting away with it because people overlook their bad behavior. Doesn’t make it right, though.

              1. Librarian of SHIELD*

                This. She’s supposed to be teaching people how to teach driver’s ed, and by *her own* account, she’s a pretty terrible driver’s ed teacher. I’d definitely tell the boss that she’s teaching some pretty sketchy techniques that we don’t want our teachers to use and we should look for someone else to send our future instructors to.

        2. kittymommy*

          I immediately thought serial killer (maybe because I watch/read a lot about that). Finding a note like that would creep me the eff out.
          SSDGM

          This definitely sounds racist to me. And creepy. I would say something.

    2. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      I’m white, but that sounds racist to me. Maybe not intentionally (then again, most racism isn’t), but there’s a reason her stories always involve MOC and have some classist stereotypes as well. You’re not overreacting and she sounds incredibly annoying.

      Having said that, I can already see her response to any criticism being something like, “Oh, I’m not racist, all my funny stories just ~happen~ to involve POC! The story is funny even without their race! Why are you making it about race, you reverse racist?”

      So: yes, you could do something about it, but it’s going to be hard to get her to change, assuming she does at all, and I don’t know if that’s effort you want to make or are able to make in the time you have with her.

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        Maybe not intentionally (then again, most racism isn’t)

        Yeah, it’s definitely more the everyday-grandpa-who-grew-up-in-the-old-days kind of racism, rather than the Uncle-Ray-who-got-drunk-at-Christmas-and-starting-ranting-about-blacks-and-Jews kind of racism.

        I’ll probably never see her much or at all after December, so I don’t know if I want to say anything at all about it to her, but I’m thinking of my future employer, who described this trainer as “opinionated”. I wasn’t sure what that was code for, but now I’m guessing I do.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          whoa: Your future employer described the trainer as ‘opinionated’ and you think that refers to her racism?

          IOW: Your future employer *knows* about her racism and STILL SENDS PEOPLE TO HER?

          That changes my advice below. Do not take this to your future employer even as a question, unless you are REALLY sure about how solid your future employer is on questions of race. I am a white liberal woman and I say: if she’s white, don’t go to her for sure. If she’s not white, maybe use the ‘ask for advice’ ploy, but whew, that is a huge red flag. If she is white, then make sure you have a list of other employers in your area for the driver’s ed instructors so that you can move on if this red flag turns out to be accurate.

          1. Mama Bear*

            Opinionated? Is that the new code word? I think your employer needs to be less gracious, unless the employer has the same beliefs. And if so…I wouldn’t want to work there.

            1. Gaia*

              I hope it isn’t because I call myself “opinionated” all the time but none of my opinions are racist!

    3. Campfire Raccoon*

      It’s racist. You’re uncomfortable because you’re picking up on her BS.

      I’m kinda mean. I’d call her out on it, but in an annoying jerky way. When she fires up with one of her stories, “There was this black kid-” “What relevance does him being African-American have to the story?” And then follow up with some teenage “why?”s. She’ll either back down or get more and more racist with each “why?”

      I’d bet she tells this particular story over and over, so you’ll likely hear it again. Jerky Mcjerkface Raccoon would call her out on how wrong the post-it “you’re being watched” is -though I doubt it will do much good. She’s comfortable in her racism.

      I’d report it.

      1. Quill*

        “How does that actually matter?” is great for training relatives out of assumptions when they ‘mean well’ but also have no awareness of what they sound like. Might not work for this lady since she’s obviously gleeful about how she treats these kids, but it’s probably worth a shot.

      2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        I think this is great advice. It could be coincidence that all her best anecdotes have subjects who are POC but it is not coincidence that she always tells you that the subjects are POC.

        I doubt you’re the only person in the class feeling uncomfortable about it, fwiw. And I definitely think you should feed back to the referrer, if not also the organisation that employs her. I hope I would talk to the referrer now, but I think I would wait to notify the employer until the end of the course where there’s a natural feedback opportunity.

        1. Gaia*

          This!

          Sometimes raceor ethnicity is relevant to a story. Sometimes it isn’t. If it isn’t, and you’re mentioning it, you should stop and ask yourself why.

    4. Breast Solidarity*

      Just the fact that she feels the need to identify students by their ethnicity shows you it is racist.

      The note is just bizarre in every way.

    5. Nom the Plumage*

      The fact that she feels like she has to make a point of what race they are sounds racist to me. She can’t just say ”one of my students did X”?

      It makes me think that she would not have done this to a white person, and if that’s the case it is DEFINITELY racism.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        You know, ‘if she would not have done this to a white person, it’s definite’ was my first reaction too, but after I thought about that a little, I have to disagree. Specifying a non-white kid’s race in a denigrating story is racism even if she also tells ‘dumb white kid’ stories.

        Race is not relevant to these stories unless you’re using it along with some bias / prejudice – for white kids, there’d probably be something classist tied in. The Escalade was mentioned for a reason – it subtly refers to the stereotype of latinx drug dealers.

        1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

          Bingo. None of the identifiers she gave in that story were relevant, but they were incredibly revealing.

        2. wittyrepartee*

          Are… escalades the drug cars? I don’t know much about cars. I’ll assume it’s an expensive car?

          2. Librarian of SHIELD*

            Escalades are the stereotypical vehicle associated with rappers and the like. It’s the kind of expensive car that tends to be mentioned as code for men of color doing shady things. When a middle class white person talks about a man of color driving an Escalade, they’re usually doing it to indicate that they believe that man to be involved with gang or drug activity.

            So, this teacher could have said “one of my students drove himself to class, but he shouldn’t have because he didn’t have his license yet!” But she included his race and the model of car he was driving, because she wanted her audience to believe Certain Things about this young man.

            And I keep getting angrier about this whole scenario.

            1. kittymommy*

              Interestingly, the only people I know who actually drive Escalades are old white guys (one of which was a second cousin of mine).

            2. Gaia*

              This is interesting. I’ve not encountered this stereotype before (likely a byproduct of being raised and now living in an exceptionally white area). That’s super messed up to assume any POC with a nice SUV must be doing something criminal.

            4. wittyrepartee*

              Yeah. I figured the Escalade was involved in a stereotype, but I wasn’t actually sure what the implication was.

    6. CatCat*

      It’s extremely hateful. Some flyers went around our neighborhood targeting residents from central America. My spouse is Latino and while we did not get one of these flyers, he was very frightened on on edge in our neighborhood for a while after this. The woman is unbelievable.

      I think anyone would be frightened to get a note like that. It’s awful. She is targeting her nastiness toward specific racial or ethnic background and also specifically at young males. So there’s an extra helping of awful on top.

      1. Quill*

        When I was a teen I would have made this woman’s life hell if she’d done this to one of my classmates. And that was over a decade ago when it was way less of an ordeal to be latino in america.

    7. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Yeah, this is hella racist!

      When she tells stories where she mentions the student’s race, it would be a favor to the world if you asked “what does the student’s race have to do with anything?” and when she tells a story like leaving that note(?!) looking appropriately horrified and saying as directly as you can “wow, that sounds like it was really mean. How is he supposed to even know what that note was about?” 0r whatever. I get that it shouldn’t be your job and you’re just trying to get out of there, but you’re not being unreasonable at all, and I guarantee you’re not the only person she’s made uncomfortable.

      In fact, if you’re not comfortable raising the issue with her directly, you should submit complaints to whatever boards she’s part of / whatever org oversees her in her job. This absolutely rises to that level. I might even have changed my mind in typing this; now i sort of think you should skip step 1 and just put in complaints directly. No way this person should have control over anyone’s getting a license, or not, or getting a teaching certificate or not!

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      Yeah, it’s racism – why is she mentioning their race at all? Even if she tells the same stories about white kids, any story she tells that specifies a non-white kid’s race is reinforcing racial bias and stereotypes. For example, the Escalade detail implies the kid’s in a gang / family deals drugs, because surely no Latinx person could purchase an Escalade with money that was legitimately earned…

      Things you can do:
      Ask your future employer for advice on a troubling behavior you’ve observed, list three stories. Ask, ‘What would you do in these situations if you were the instructor?’ and say ‘It bothers me that she makes a point of giving the kid’s race in all these stories. That shouldn’t matter, should it?’

      On the only plus side, with 39 years experience, she won’t be doing it much longer. But she’s been putting out poison for a long long time.

    9. Jennifer*

      I understand why you feel irked. She is assuming that you’re white, which is why she feels comfortable speaking that way in front of you. There are some racist people who think racism doesn’t count if only white people are around when they say something stupid. Ask her if she would have handled it the same way if a white student had done the same thing? Your speaking up could help future students. If she seems resistant to change, go up the ladder.

      1. wittyrepartee*

        Both my boyfriend and I are mixed race. We’ve both had this happen a lot, particularly before we moved to a large, diverse coastal city. It’s very very uncomfortable.

        1. Jennifer*

          I am not mixed race but I have a “white voice” over the phone, and I caught people saying some terrible things when I worked in a call center.

          1. wittyrepartee*

            Yeah, my bf was once told by someone that they didn’t believe in mixing of the races. He was like “oh boy, so… should I not exist?” The guy’s mind was BLOWN.

            People say HORRIBLE THINGS. And it makes one feel dirty for days after the fact if one says nothing, and confrontational and unpleasant if you do say something.

            1. Jennifer*

              Yeah I still feel terrible about not speaking up in the moment when I was younger, but sometimes you’re just so shocked.

    10. Trout 'Waver*

      Of course its racism.

      I’d only bring it up if you know your friend to trust your judgment on such issues, though.

    11. Buttons*

      That is messed up. She certainly has some bias against these kids. Why did she think that note would do anything but freak the poor kid out! She didn’t correct him, she didn’t teach him anything, and she didn’t stop him from doing something illegal or dangerous. Isn’t she required to stop an unlicensed driver from driving alone?
      I would talk to your friend. I would approach it as asking her what she thinks is the best way to handle things that make you feel uncomfortable. “Friend, instructor told me this story— tell the story– and it made me feel really uncomfortable because of XYZ. I am not sure how to respond when she tells me stories like that. What do you think?”
      Keep us posted!

    12. Jennifer*

      The evil side of me wants to leave a note under her windshield wiper that says “Your racist self has been reported. We’ll be in touch.”

        1. Jedi Squirrel*

          I would love to, but there are only three of us in class. It wouldn’t be hard for her to figure this out.

          1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

            If someone put that note on her car (oh, say, an anonymous friend) while y’all were in class, she’d KNOW it wasn’t you!

    13. LCH*

      for the note story, you could have asked her to explain what she did instead of doing what you would have done. or just stated what you would have done instead. for any future stories, you could do this sort of thing. make her explain herself. because the note story is just weird on top of racist. don’t make her feel comfortable telling you her stories. but i also get that she has some control over you as the instructor (that sucks).

      1. TaterTot*

        I am a fan of the “I don’t get it” approach. Wrinkled brow and puzzles tone: “How does leaving an uninformative note help the student learn?” “I don’t get it; why is that funny?” “Sorry, I just don’t understand why that’s supposed to be funny.” And so forth.

      2. juliebulie*

        Yes! The note story is just plain mean, all by itself. The racism is an extra layer of wrongness on the rancid turd cake.

    14. Quill*

      That’s forked, especially in this political climate, and also the LEAST PROFESSIONAL OR SENSIBLE SOLUTION POSSIBLE.

      If you think you can push back – if not to her, than to your friend if they have any sway over this – point out at least that how she’s handling this is a) not actually teaching the children anything b) very inefficient. If your friend has her teach often then your friend needs to know that she’s not teaching how to deal with minors appropriately.

    15. FormerFirstTimer*

      I think it’s racist, but even if you dropped that bit, the note itself is extremely creepy and inappropriate. It makes me think that this woman shouldn’t be allowed around children tbh. I would definitely say something to whoever is in charge of hiring/firing.

    16. Enough*

      So wrong. But regarding driving yourself to driver’s ed. When I was taking the classroom portion one of the guys did drive himself to class. He had moved from a state that did not require driver’s ed to get your license to one that did. So to get his license before he turned 18 he had to take the driver’s ed class.

      1. wittyrepartee*

        Wait… there are states that require driver’s ed?
        *checks*
        WOAH. My (former) home state now requires driver’s ed to get a license. That’s news to me.

    17. hbc*

      She’s totally racist. If she was just low-level biased, all her stories might be about POC, but she wouldn’t need to mention their ethnicity.

      I agree with Campfire Raccoon about asking the relevance of race. I would also make it a point to describe any white people explicitly as white in any stories or comments about videos or whatnot. “In the second clip, I was surprised the white instructor didn’t intervene sooner.”

      1. wittyrepartee*

        Or if she was low-level to medium biased she’d be telling both positive and negative stories about PoC, and always mention their ethnicity.

    18. CL*

      In addition to all the excellent explanations of why this is definitely racism, scaring a minor like that is absolutely inexcusable. If someone pulled a stunt like that on one of my kids, I’d be livid. Let him know he can’t drive yet, help him figure out a way home/someone to pick up the car, etc. But not even letting him know that what’s he’s doing is wrong is seriously effed up. I’d let her know that by letting him continue to drive after becoming aware of it, she opened herself and the school to liability if he’d had a crash on the way home afterward. And maybe report her to either the school’s owner or to whatever certification body they report to. It might get her fired.

    19. pumpkin on da shelf*

      A gleeful racist… if you could report her, even if anonymously, what a great service you’d be doing… who knows what else this lunatic will do to harm others…

    20. Parenthetically*

      Whoa “You are being watched” what in the ENTIRE HELL!? Yes, report her racist ass. I would just describe the *actions* rather than trying to create a narrative for Future Boss, but wow this is incredibly unprofessional and very definitely tinged with Instructor’s racist attitudes.

        1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

          Yeah! I’d be out of town in an instant.

          I don’t know how this would happen, but I hope somehow, in some way, someone told him what the note was about (don’t drive w/o a license).

          That is a vicious thing to do to someone.

      2. Tabby Baltimore*

        She threatened a child. Putting it in terms like that should help fill the gaps in your friend’s obviously very limited understanding of this instructor’s personality.

    21. MOAS*

      Even if by some stretch shes’ not *racist*, she’s still a grade A A-hole. And like someone said above, I hope someone puts an equally disgusting note on her windshield. Hell, I wouldn’t be the least bit sympathetic if someone were to throw food all over or smash her windshiedl.

      1. b*

        I feel as though the appropriate reaction would be “Wait what? You anonymously threatened a student? Why did you do that?” Asked in front of everyone else in the room.

    22. wittyrepartee*

      Oh hello there, other white-passing PoC! I really hate when this happens. I’m not sure what to do, it’s pretty specific to whether you think that your future employer will listen to you.

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        Yeah, I grew up in a small town where everybody knew what my ethnicity was because they knew my family, and were total asshats. (Well, not all, but a lot.) When I moved to the city, I couldn’t figure out why everybody was so nice. (I had been told city people were rude.) And most really are, but you still run into those situations where someone assumes you’re “normal” (which someone had once said to me), and is shocked when you call them out on some racist action.

        Kind of thought we were getting over this in this country, but I guess not. I’m just exhausted by it at this point.

    23. Kiwiii*

      even if the racism is not on purpose, it’s definitely definitely there and needs to be pointed out. If she pushes back it’s bc she likes being racist.

    24. Not So NewReader*

      So this woman is a TEACHER?
      And she teaches by leaving threatening notes under people’s windshield wipers?
      And she thinks this is fine.

      Not only is she a racist, she is also incompetent and should not be teaching anyone to do anything, ever. I have met teachers like this, “women can’t be taught; education is wasted on women; she’ll only make babies and never use this education….”.
      She is a sower of future hatred because she is at the head of a classroo and who should not be in a position to influence other people.

      Let us know how it goes for you.
      It’s time to call someone who cares, even if it has to be an outside agency.

    25. pcake*

      There is NOTHING funny about leaving a note on anyone’s car, door, desk or gate that says “You are being watched”. It sounds very threatening.

      And she apparently couldn’t be bothered to just tell him she saw him drive in and that’s illegal. Instead she proved to be a sadistic and horrible person.

      And yes, from your description, she sounds racist. Glad to hear you’ll be out of there soon!

    26. tamarack and fireweed*

      Oh, trust your instincts on that. When someone keeps telling cautionary tales from their professional practice (which may be a generally useful thing to do) in a weirdly racialized way, it’s racism. Even if maybe in your specific social environment the transgressors are more likely to be from certain ethnicities, their racial background (and even gender) has absolutely no bearing on the situation, and a professional would be scrupulously neutral in providing descriptions.
      The unprofessional creepy note — not only an unprofessional re-telling / teaching situation, but unprofessional handling of a real situation — is an extra.

      If you can, say something.

      1. Murphy McIrish*

        I once found myself in a similar situation with a coworker who would make sexist and racist comments and jokes. At the time I thought that he thought he was being ironic or maybe just provocative. Anyway, one day he made an ignorant comment about the difficulty in hiring qualified new employees and that if it were up to him, “coloreds need not apply.” I responded spoke with a “Oh, that’s not true!” and he looked at me and said, “Excuse me, I meant to say that ‘Coloreds and Irish need not apply.'” WTF?

        1. tamarack & fireweed*

          One of the people who think that if they turn it into a joke it isn’t racist, then?

          I’m old enough and have heard these things often enough that I’m much less flustered than I used to be. Most of the time I manage to say something along the lines of “Wow, that’s a racist thing to say” or “Just because you’re turning it into a joke doesn’t make it any less racist” or “So you’re deploring the lack of qualified candidates and want to restrict our hiring pool even further?” or “One thing I’ve learned is that when I look at a team and everyone’s a white guy I know they’re doing hiring wrong and leaving talent on the street”. Said calmly and with an (admittedly often condescending — I have still ways to go) smile.

          (But really, these words are grounds to report him…)

      2. Don’t get salty*

        I’m assuming, based on your description of the 3-person class size, that no one in your class looks like a person of color; perhaps there’s never been a person who looks like a POC in that classroom. This instructor is absolutely racist; there is no ambiguity about the situation.

        Racism doesn’t have to be this over the top outlandish demonstration of racism (saying, “Go back to where you came from!”; burning crosses on your doorstep; spitting in your face; using extremely upsetting epithets) in order to qualify. Nearly all of the racism I experience is the obviously not nice, but questionable type. Racist attitudes have changed slightly, but they have not disappeared; they’ve just gotten more covert.

        If your boss (or manager) can describe this person as “opinionated” and be perfectly fine with her teaching, that’s a signal that, perhaps, the person you report to you is also racist.

        1. Avasarala*

          Yep. Don’t need a white hood to be racist. For *some reason* all her stories are about POC behaving badly. Hm…

    27. Not an authority but that sounds racist to me*

      I’m a white person so I’m definitely not entitled to decide what is or isn’t racism, but I don’t think this is particularly subtle of her, and I’d be willing to bet that if she was only around other people whom she expected to agree with her, she would make much more blatant remarks.

      I do think, however, that this is the kind of racism that people like her have managed to gaslight a lot of other white people into thinking isn’t racism, and if the people who referred you to her class and/or above her are in that category, you’ll have a hard time getting buy in on change.

      I’m very sorry you are going through this.

  8. Sunflower*

    How do I approach contacts of my company/boss about job opportunities?

    I’m 6 months into a new job and it’s not the right fit. While the company isn’t perfect, I know that my big issue is I want to get out of the event planner role I’m in and move into one working in sales for a product our vendors sell.
    My company works with many different vendors that sell this product and they serve as our account reps. I’ve done research online and tried to get a sense of the job market but I’m not finding much. In addition to that, I know these jobs are flexible and not all the time posted online so having these contacts know I’m interested would be immensely helpful in locating these jobs.

    Since I’m only 6 months in, these reps feel very much like my boss’s contacts (as opposed to my company) and it makes me wary about approaching them. My boss is very close with these contacts and I don’t know how to approach them without setting off red flags. Do I pretend to have a ‘friend’ who’s interested? Say I may be interested in this job down the line? Am I overthinking this?

    1. Bird Person*

      What’s your relationship with your boss like? What has your work been like? If they seem reasonable and you’ve been doing good work, you may think about sitting down with your boss yourself and telling them what you’ve told us, and asking for ideas/help/new opportunities. Maybe even exploring sales in your current company first?
      My concern would be that if you go to the contacts yourself, they may prioritize the relationship with the company – either not hiring you or even reporting back to your boss.
      Good luck! I know that’s a frustrating position to be in.

    2. Adlib*

      I don’t know that you can approach the contacts directly about employment. In the course of your interactions with them, you can ask them about their work in general, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to mention wanting that job because that can get back to your boss since you say your boss is close with them.

      It also really depends on the relationship between those contacts and your company/boss. If they see a resume come in from you, they will likely know a vendor relationship exists and could have internal rules about hiring you or not hiring you since you’re an existing client. (I know this because I went through this exact scenario.)

    3. 867-5309*

      Some companies won’t consider moving you at all at this point. You’re still a somewhat unknown quantity so how do they know you’d work out in the next role, if you don’t work out/like this one? I’d encourage you to rock the current position and then in the course of conversations with your boss, say the reps work looks interesting and when the time is right, you’d like to be considered or specifically ask, what it takes to do that work.

    4. MissGirl*

      Did you know what you were hiring on to do? If there’s a question of you thought it was one role but they made it another, that’s one thing. You could go to your boss and communicate that. If this is what you were hired on to do and just had an epiphany you want to do something else, I would keep your search quiet and not involve clients.

    5. Kiwiii*

      You might be able to do a general feeler statement in conversation/email like “I’ve always been interested in what you’re doing, how did you get into it?” but other than that it’s both too new and too removed from you to do much more.

  9. Jennifer*

    I don’t know if you guys listen to the Dear Prudence podcast, but the same person who wrote Alison because his boss accused him of peeing in his chair, calling someone a gay slur and calling an employee at home and asking if they were gay wrote Dear Prudence and letter was answered on the podcast. “Prudence” and the cohost advised him to talk to a lawyer, which I thought was interesting. They also thought the letter in general was super weird and hilarious.

    1. tallteapot*

      Anyone who write the current Prudie asking for work advice is a doofus. Current Prudie knows less than nothing about workplaces/policies/norms. Danny’s advice for work-related questions is truly cringe-worthy.

      1. Jennifer*

        Lol, I agree, unless it’s something that’s just common sense. I think the LW just wrote a bunch of advice columnists in the hope of getting his letter answered.

        1. DataGirl*

          I love advice columns. Sometimes I’ll see a work related question on Dear Abby or Miss Manners and think, “You should be writing AAM!”.

          1. Jennifer*

            Yes! I don’t know why these people don’t write work advice columns with work questions. Sometimes I want to forward them to Alison to see what she thinks.

          2. Quill*

            A lot of the ones I see are like “okay, this work portion is for AAM, this friends and boundaries thing is for Captain Awkward, and your boyfriend who tells you you can’t pee in your own house is for r/relationships where the entire world will tell you to leave him.”

      2. RussianInTexas*

        There was one brilliant advice that basically said it’s OK to steal from your employer if they are a financially successful big company, because 1%-ers something something.
        This is not this works!

          1. RussianInTexas*

            He sort of did. It was OK for the friends to take stuff from the corporate apartment because the company was successful and would not really miss the stuff/money.
            He also presumes everyone has HR and should go to HR every single time to solve every small issue.

            1. Jennifer*

              No, he didn’t. I just re-read the letter. He said he didn’t feel that bad for the corporation since they obviously are doing well (for the record, I don’t either) but that the LW should ask for the keys back from the friends that were planning to steal because they could be on the hook for replacing the items with the landlord or get in trouble at work. If the friends refused to return them, he suggested getting the locks changed.

              1. RussianInTexas*

                The “didn’t feel bad for the corporation” is 100% wrong.
                It doesn’t matter if the company is doing good or bad, you are stealing. Corporation doing well is really, really not the point.

                1. Jennifer*

                  I wouldn’t snitch on good friends to protect a corproration’s interests over some trinkets. I agree that stealing is stealing but I actually thought Prudie’s advice was the perfect balance between staying out of trouble at work but not narcing on your friends. What they were doing was the equivalent of taking the shampoo sample at a hotel room.

                2. RussianInTexas*

                  I am not saying that he should snitch. But he should cut it out now, this second.
                  I am saying this is not OK and that justifying it by “corporation is doing well” is really wrong.
                  You pay for the shampoo in the hotel by paying for the room. It’s yours to take. In that letter, the corporation is paying for this. It is not his.

        1. Allypopx*

          Yes. I love the discussion, and I love Danny, but I would advise people to take most of the actual advice with a grain of salt.

      5. Trout 'Waver*

        It’s not just workplaces, it’s pretty much everything. That columnist always finds some way to spin it so that a man is at fault, too, which gets pretty obnoxious.

        1. Jennifer*

          I read every day and listen to the podcast every week and I don’t find that to be true at all. More women tend to write advice columns than men so it may seem biased toward women but that’s not the case in reality, imo.

          1. Campfire Raccoon*

            Agreed. I don’t think it’s always the man’s fault. I do think Danny loves a good victim story – but I’m not reading Dear Prudence because I want boring problems.

            1. RussianInTexas*

              But we don’t get the fun ones anymore! Where is the mother in law poisoning her daughter in law? Where is the twincest?

              1. Jennifer*

                There was a twincest one just answered on the podcast that was hilarious. It involved twins with a strange GoT obsession.

                1. RussianInTexas*

                  Oh, I missed that! Podcasts are usually posted when I am at work, and I forget to listen to them when I am at home.

            2. Jennifer*

              Exactly. He picks the saddest, most dramatic stories to draw us in. But he is not afraid to call out a woman that’s doing something problematic either. He just runs more letters from women that are dealing with scumbag dudes.

          2. Trout 'Waver*

            FFS. Just look at the first line in the first response of the most recent column. There’s an allusion to the belief that the letter writer underestimates how much their wife does in taking care of their kids.

            Never in a million years would Daniel have written that if the letter writer had written in about their husband. Heck, an excellent response would be something along the lines of “I’m sure your wife finds some things you do with the kids annoying too.” That type of response would work perfectly well regardless of the letter writer’s gender.

            2. Aquawoman*

              I think you have to twist that around and then squint really hard to make that “you don’t understand how much your wife is doing for the kids.” It was purely asking whether the context is child-care or self-care. That was it.

              1. Trout 'Waver*

                Eh….. If it was purely about self-care vs child-care, why not ask it like that? Daniel is a definitely a skilled writer. It’s not happenstance that the way his sentence is constructed conveys a mental image of a bedraggled mom blasting Taylor Swift while wrangling kids.

      6. Angwyshaunce*

        In fairness, I did see a recent Prudence answer (about a work question) where she specifically referenced this site, using Alison’s insight. I appreciated that.

        1. Jennifer*

          Yeah, he’s not always bad at it but I do wish he’d reference AAM more often. Some of these questions could be answered just be searching the site.

          1. Arts Akimbo*

            Yes. Or do that thing other advice columnists do where they consult lawyers or experts in the field when the question stretches outside their wheelhouse.

      7. KR*

        I have to agree. I love Daniel’s advice and listening to his podcast but some of his workplace advice is not the best.

        1. Campfire Raccoon*

          Ehhh. I appreciated her day-to-day advice, but anything that dealt with trauma leaned heavily towards victim-blaming. That is to say, Emily was less “Be strong, seek help, try to move on” and more “Get over yourself”.

        3. A Simple Narwhal*

          Seconding what others have said, she did have good advice for average questions but if there was ever any alcohol ever involved, she was staunchly “you drank, what did you expect would happen” which really soured me against her.

        5. Savannah*

          I miss her too. I did not always agree with her advice but her style was hilarious.
          I find Daniel’s writing quite boring so I only read it sporadically now. The advice he gives isn’t necessarily bad (except for work questions, on that I’m with y’all) but his style just doesn’t click with me.

      9. The Original K.*

        It really is. I think I heard him say he’d worked at Yahoo or Yelp or someplace like that for three weeks, and that’s the extent of his office experience. And it shows. The only times I can recall agreeing with his workplace advice is if it’s something rooted in common sense, like “I have a crush on my boss, should I ask him out? “No, you should not.”

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I heard that! I also thought it was weird that they interpreted the “did you pee on a chair in this department” as “your chair was peed in, was it you”. I’ll have to go check the letter but they seemed to be hung up on the idea that it was the LW’s chair that was peed in, and how would LW have not noticed that, whereas I thought they were asking if the LW had peed in/on any chair, not specifically theirs.

      I also have other thoughts about other letters they answered but that’s probably better suited for tomorrow’s open thread.

  10. ThatGirl*

    When I was in customer service, we had a hard time getting good information from other departments. While this company is less siloed than it used to be, there’s definitely still information and resource hoarding. Now that I’m in creative, I want to make sure CS gets information that we can easily provide. And my new manager doesn’t seem to get it. She seems to think I’m gonna, like, spend half my day doing things for CS – I literally just want to share documentation and product information that we have access to and encourage our department-mates to do the same. My work is getting done with plenty of time to spare, deadlines are being met, and we are not so busy right now that I can’t spare 10 minutes. (In fact things are kind of slow.) I can tell this is going to be a continued struggle.

    1. new kid*

      No advice, but keep fighting the good fight!! CS is so often overlooked/underappreciated and could do their jobs 1000% more efficiently if other departments would take half a second to think of them and share the readily available resources they have. When I used to work customer service for a tech company, we would often hear from our CLIENTS that updates had gone out before we would hear from dev or anyone internal and it was so embarrassing and frustrating.

      tl;dr – Reading this comment warms my bitter former-CS heart. Good luck!!!

      1. ThatGirl*

        I was basically hired to my CS role to help with that sort of thing, to work better with other departments and improve information sharing, and honestly, CS has a lot of great information that nobody seems to realize – literally they are the front line of consumer feedback and complaints. Why wouldn’t we want to take that into account?? We are a CPG company! I did a lot of hard work while I was in that department and I don’t want to see it go to waste. Thanks for the encouragement :)

    2. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I’m with new kid; you’re doing a great thing. TBH, I would probably just keep doing it and not mention it as much to the manager. Manager has made it clear that they don’t want you to spend a lot of time doing this, and you’ve established that it doesn’t take much time at all, so I would just move forward knowing that you’re in spiritual alignment until and unless it becomes a problem (and hopefully, by then you’ll have a whole CS squad on your side testifying about how much this info has helped them serve your customers better!)

      1. ThatGirl*

        Thank you :) The coworkers I left behind basically think I’m an angel so I know they’re on my side, haha.

    3. Mrs_helm*

      Is there an easy way to just share the info? And is there any rule against it? Maybe this is a “get forgiveness not permission” situation?

      1. ThatGirl*

        I can certainly do end-runs around her and in many cases just share it myself. I’m just frustrated that she doesn’t seem to get it, though it’s sort of indicative of a lot of attitudes around here.

    4. Orange You Glad*

      I worked CS doing tech support for a company that produced machines requiring specific software that they also created – so all questions about the machines and the software ended up with the CS team.

      And two weeks before Mother’s Day, the Legal department changed the shipping rules so if you ordered a machine to be sent to a different address than your billing address, your order was held until you called CS.

      Except the only way to know if your order was held was if you were checking your tracking number and it hadn’t shipped for a few days and you called to find out why?

      So suddenly CS was getting *tons* of angry husbands calling who had ordered a machine for their wives for Mother’s Day…and now their presents wouldn’t arrive in time because it got held and we didn’t notify them. It was a nightmare, we lost business, we had to overnight ship a ton of stuff, etc.

      Why did this fiasco occur?

      Because the Legal department was concerned about high fraud numbers so they made this change without telling CS. Basically some people were ordering machines with stolen credit cards and shipping them to other locations so they held ALL the orders like that to prevent it.

      We asked why they didn’t send out an automated email of an order had been held? Something to let the customer know to call and get their address verified and release their order for shipping?

      “Because then fraudulent people will see the email and call which defeats the purpose of the order hold.”

      Ok. That doesn’t sound reasonable but ok. If they had just asked CS for input on how to make these changes, it would have solved everything! Instead they ruined Mother’s Day for hundreds of people AND created weeks of chaos for CS…

      Ugh. This was 3 years ago and 2 jobs ago and I’m still angry about this.

      1. NeonDreams*

        Lord, that does sound like a nightmare :( I know the feeling of other departments making decisions and not telling CS well.

    5. OhBehave*

      Thanks from a former CS rep. I have done the same thing. Working hard to make sure the front lines knew about a new promo, sale, glitch, etc. It makes things so much easier.
      Not sure how docs are shared but can you suggest the originator include CS on these notifications?

      1. ThatGirl*

        In many cases I can send things directly to CS and I have been; this specific query was a bigger project where I may not end up with the end result so I wanted to be sure they would have access. The ultimate answer was really “go around my manager right to the person who can provide it if necessary,” I guess.

    6. NeonDreams*

      I’m in customer service and this is one of my many frustrations about the job. Either of lack of information, information isn’t being spelled out, or the information exists but you can’t find the document when you need it. You’re doing a great thing.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      When the company set up SharePoint years ago, we started posting our publishef docs to a teamroom. The numbers of phone calls to us from tech services & customer support dropped from two or three a week to two or three a year. And we have all those lovely records of how often people did research on the site. Just a thought…

    8. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

      A job in Creative that gives you time to spare?!? Hold on to that job, girl. That’s a unicorn job.

      Can I come work with you? Lol.

  11. Audrey Puffins*

    Quick one for any UK managers or HR types: I know from reading this blog that US workplaces by law cannot forbid employees from discussing their wages with other employees, do we have anything similar in the UK? My company requests that we don’t discuss our wages with each other as our different backgrounds and different lengths of service etc mean that we’ll be receiving different wages, which sounds fair enough, but we’re all intelligent enough to realise that there are legitimate reasons for people to receive different wages (and I’m confident that, if challenged, HR would be able to prove the fairness of different wages), so it doesn’t really sit right that we’re asked not to talk about it.

    1. PX*

      I thiiiiink so. I dont know off the top of my head but was having a quick google recently and the gov.uk website has some good info on laws. Reed (job search website) surprisingly also does, but I also know the citizens advice bureau is generally a good place to start as well.

    2. SarahKay*

      To the best of my knowledge, no, it’s illegal for UK companies to forbid staff from discussing / disclosing their own salary. They can say you’re not allowed to do it on company time (which, okay, I guess makes sense) and they can request / suggest that you don’t do it at all, but they can’t forbid it.

    3. Weegie*

      According to an article in the Metro last year, employers in the UK can’t forbid employees to discuss salary:

      ‘Thanks to the Equality Act of 2010, employees have the right to discuss salary for the purposes of collective bargaining or protection – so that if everyone’s being underpaid, people can come together and ask for more.’

      I’ll link to the article in a reply.

      My employer, like most others in the same sector, actually publishes its pay bands – if you know what grade someone is on, you have a rough idea of what they earn.

  12. Dankar*

    I’ve applied to a job at a nearby institution, but they have two open positions. Even though both positions were vacated at around the same time, only one has been posted, and that’s the one I’ve applied for. I’d really prefer to apply for the unopened one, however, as it’s a better fit for me.

    I know (vaguely) the woman from the department who typically posts the jobs–can I reach out to her to ask if they plan to open a search for the second position without jeopardizing my application for the first?

      1. Dankar*

        Both of the positions show as vacant on their staff site, and I was on a regional board with the woman who left the position I’d prefer.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          In that case, I agree with the below that it’s not a good move to ask about a position that’s not posted. If you have a strong relationship with the woman who left the position, you could ask her about what she knows about the company’s plans to refill the role, but I don’t think you’ll do yourself any good to ask someone at the company who you only vaguely know.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      You’d be overstepping. There are a lot of valid business reasons why a recently vacated position would not be posted. If they want resumes for the position, they’ll post the position.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      I think since you 1) know the woman who does postings and 2) know the woman who left, it’s a natural networking kind of question. You’d want to mention ‘Beyonce told me she was leaving the role of dancer to become Queen, and I was wondering if your institution was planning to open a search for a new dancer.’

      I do not think a single question would impact the application for the other position at all. You can’t send any nudges if the posting woman doesn’t respond.

    4. M*

      They may not post two roles or one may be changed. We had two people leave my team recently and although one role is staying the same (and has been posted), the other role will be vastly different because we have different needs. We have had many people inquire about the second role (basically because the person who was in it knew a lot of people and didn’t do much but had a high salary for the role). The new job will be more entry level with the ability to move up but is different in scope and duties. So it is fine to ask, but be aware they may be looking for something different. Also, getting a second team member was also a big haul. We were three down and I worked my tail off and was told I didn’t need to hire more than one because I was doing a stellar job. I had to let them know it was because I was working 10-12 hour days. So I stopped doing that and now I am allowed two more people

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Sometimes hiring freezes mean an opening is going to go unfilled for the forseeable future.

  13. Shannon*

    I dealt with this, and I can only say just do it, and eventually her BS will start to affect you less/become less awkward for you. It’s absolutely not fair, but if you/others have addressed it with her boss and didn’t get anywhere, you don’t have much of a choice.

    I also tried the tactic of innocently asking “Oh, is something wrong/Do you not understand the directions/Sorry, are you in the middle of something?” and usually, this would stop the behavior in the short term; however, it always came back and sometimes I just didn’t have the energy.

  14. Goldfinch*

    Same racist/sexist/classist VP as last week’s open thread, overheard at a work luncheon this week:

    (said by a married man in his late 50s to an engaged new employee in her early 20s) “You are a smokeshow! If I wasn’t standing next to the head of HR, I’d be trying to get with you.” As if, dude.

    Sigh. Yes, I’ve started looking. Thanks for the nudges that I already knew the correct answer.

        3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          Yikes.

          The only positive is that you’ve proven your instincts are strong. I hope you find your exit very soon.

        5. Cherry Bitters*

          Why is it even worse that they are people of color? What is the rationale for holding them to a higher standard?

          1. Blueberry*

            [disclaimer: obviously I am not the Speaker for All People of Color] My reasoning here is that I find it ethically disappointing when people who face one kind of bigotry won’t/can’t extrapolate to notice when we’re promoting another kind of bigotry and therefore start working on not doing so. Among other things I’m a woman and a POC, and I don’t know which makes me sadder: women who promote racism or POC who promote sexism. Not that it’s at all justified when people who don’t experience bigotry promote it, but there’s a layer of frustration when someone with the life experience to understand just, basically, chooses not to.

          2. Cherry Bitters*

            Yeah, that’s just laughable. The idea that a non-white man is something more attuned to misogyny is foolish, and the concept that people of color somehow have to be better at calling folks out, even in situations in which they may be legitimately marginalized, is particularly unpleasant. But sometimes it be your own people who hold you to an unfair standard.

            1. Avasarala*

              I don’t think it’s that POC have to be better at noticing/dealing with bigotry. But because they experience it themselves, one might think that gives them expertise at recognizing it (as compared to people with privilege, who might need to be educated on the concept in the first place). But of course that doesn’t play out that way in real life. POC can be just as racist against their own/other groups, or along other axis (sexism, homo/transphobia, etc.) as anyone else.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww

      Ugh I hope the head of HR did something! If someone says “I’d break every bone in your body if this cop wasn’t standing here” I’m pretty sure that still counts as a threat.

      This makes me so tired.

    6. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Ah jeez. That’s horrifying. Is there some higher body you can put in a complaint to? This sounds like a terrible place to work.

    8. AnonEMoose*

      EEEEWWWWW. My skin is now trying to crawl off my body and go hide under the bed or something. I hope you find something much better soon, OP!

    9. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Ugh. Your poor coworker getting creeped on by this steaming pile of grossness. I’m glad you’re looking, and I hope you can get out soon.

    10. LunaLena*

      Oh, ewww. I worked at a company in my early 20s where the president (married with kids who were the exact same age as me) used to say similar things to me. It was SO SO awkward and embarrassing, and I was way too young and naive at the time to know that this was not okay, so all I did was politely laugh and move away as quickly as possible.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      This guy is now famous (infamous) on AAM and he has no idea that half the world is puking at him.
      There is just something so satisfying in knowing that.

  15. Nines*

    Any tips on writing a personal performance evaluation would be greatly appreciated! I’ve never done one before. Supposed to list accomplishments from this year. It goes in my file and can impact whether I get a raise. And I’m getting writers block.

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      I would use Allison’s resume-writing advice and focus on accomplishments and include numbers, if possible.

      “Color-coded the TPS reports resulting in 35% time savings while searching for open orders.” That sort of thing.

    2. Senor Montoya*

      Not sure when you have to have it done….but I have learned to keep track of these things all along. Word doc on desktop, every time I do something I (usually!) note it in the doc.

      If your office has a template for this kind of thing, throw your stuff in there as you go along. You can edit later. If there isn’t a template, talk with your boss about categories to include.

      I always keep the previous year’s evaluation (my notes and the final copy that my boss gives me) as well — then you can compare and point to things like “met 2017-2018 goal to XYZ”.

    3. Word from the Wise*

      I learned to record my significant achievments during the year in a Word file. I would also list examples of where I stood out for communication, team work, technical ability, attendance ect (categories that are on the review).

      This took extra time during the year, but made completing my review simple and I didn’t forget my big milstones and achievments.

    4. Catwoman*

      I think it helps to start with your job description and then think of projects or concrete examples that show how you have performed your job. For example, if your job description states that you are responsible for sales in the X region, talk about new accounts you’ve added or list sales figures, especially if your metrics show an increase from the previous year or from when you began your role. If your accomplishments are less quantifiable, then you can give examples like “delivered the Jones project to the client a week ahead of schedule” or “improved the design of the website and received strong positive feedback”.

    5. chizuk*

      fistbump of solidarity! I’ve been procrastinating on mine for over a month.

      This doesn’t help you right now, but can help next year: what does help is that I keep a running file of what I do every week, and then at the end of the week, I e-mail it to myself. That way, at the end of the year when I write it up, I do know what I did this year.

      Then it’s just the work of turning “I completed all my widgets on time with full satisfaction” into fitting the exact wording of my job description, which is the hard part…

    6. Throwaway123*

      Get the book FYI For your improvement: https://www.amazon.com/FYI-Improvement-Learners-Managers-Feedback/dp/1933578173

      You want to talk about their skills and how they can improve them.
      So you describe the specific project – accomplishments and the skills they used in project. How they can enhance those skills they are already good at. Then list any skills they should work on that would have helped them do the project any better.

      For example your work on the cookie project helped increase customer satisfaction by 50%. I saw your skill 1, skill 2, and skill 3 help achieve this result. Name and describe these strengths. I think if you work on skill 4, and 5 we will see even better results. Name skills and how person can work on them for the next year (trainings, mentoring, etc.).

      Don’t bring up any personal family items that are impacting person’s work such as pregnancy, babies, family, gender etc. during a review. Just stick to results / skills and how they can get better.

      Also, avoid gendered language in the review. I had a friend from academic side of things send me a list of gendered language to avoid in reference letters, but I find it handy for evaluations too! Link: https://csw.arizona.edu/sites/default/files/avoiding_gender_bias_in_letter_of_reference_writing.pdf

      Good luck!

    7. LKW*

      Did you deliver anything of note during the year? New process, new technology?
      Did you manage your own work product? Oversee anyone else’s work?
      Did you coordinate work across teams?
      Implement anything new? Revise anything in place?
      Did you reduce cycle time of anything or improve quality of anything (e.g. reduced cycle time on average 2 days per cycle… approach reduced issues/incidents by 40% from x to y.)
      Did you do anything outside of your defined role (don’t highlight if doing that meant that you didn’t get your work done satisfactorily)?

    8. A Simple Narwhal*

      My advice would be to remind yourself that this is not the time to be humble. No one is going to be a bigger cheerleader for you right now than yourself, so definitely don’t hold back. I struggle with writing self-evaluations because it feels weird to be essentially bragging about myself, but it’s important to just push past those feelings.

      This is advice for the future but I keep an accomplishments document that I update regularly. It makes it much easier to write an evaluation if I make a note of every accomplishment as it happens. Something that felt massive at the time might not be remembered six months later, so it’s much easier to just write it down in the moment (along with flagging associated emails of praise) to reference later.

    9. Anax*

      This won’t help for right now, but I keep a daily to-do list on paper, in a journal. That makes it easy to go back and see what my major projects were – anything that keeps coming up is probably worth listing.

      (It also makes me feel more organized during the day – I have depression, so figuring out where to start can be tricky. and I often feel like I’m not doing enough because my brain is a jerk – but the documentation is a handy side-effect.)

      For this year, if you can’t think of accomplishments… Can you look back through your email, papers, or ticketing system, and likewise, see what keeps coming up? For email, I would make sure to have “conversation view” on – then, you can look specifically at the really long email chains. Things that took a lot of communication are probably more likely to be things your manager cares about.

      Otherwise… I think these are intended to be written like a resume – sell yourself, contextualize your accomplishments with numbers where possible, and where possible focus on hard achievements (“saved company X dollars”, “rewrote Teapot Design manual”) over soft ones (“learned to use the Spout Attachment program” without further contextualization to show how this affected the company or markers of success).

      For this year, mine is going to look like…
      – Redesigned the Major Customer web tool, providing an updated schema, modern graphic design, and dynamic, user-friendly error messages. This redesign provides a template for future web tools with complex user interfaces, which expands the team’s ability to serve a growing client base.
      – Designed a new Employee Performance web tool. This process had been run manually for some time due to long lag times; the new tool functions correctly, provides a new administrative interface for team members to approve quarterly performance updates, and uses graphic design consistent with team style guidelines.
      – Developed and deployed changes to Spout Design calculations, due to legal changes which require spout length of at least 2.5″.
      – Composed feasibility and cost/benefit proposals for new software tools, including source control, web tools, and workflows, which will provide more consistent service, simultaneous development by multiple team members, and greater flexibility in user-facing reports.
      – Maintained legacy Microsoft Access tools after Circei’s retirement (7/31), providing continuity of service.
      – Gained proficiency with development, migration, and best practices in the Teapot Management system, including ad-hoc data and design changes, and assisting with the new cast-iron teapot design project for 2020.

      … and maybe a few other things when I flip through the last journal from this year. I’m not sure that’s perfect – this is also my first formal eval – but maybe it’ll give you a place to start.

    10. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      Future tip – I keep a separate folder in my inbox called “Kudos” to store all the warm fuzzies that people have sent to me throughout the year. It really helps when the big dreaded self-eval comes around (not only to pump myself up, but to jog my memory re: what was a challenge).

    11. CL*

      If this is a new position, think back to what your manager told you were the priorities for your job and address how well you’ve gotten up to speed on those things. Or highlight how quickly you’ve been able to get up to speed and how that compares with where your peers are.

      If it’s not new, look at your last review and see what points were highlighted for improvement. Address how well you’ve tackled those things. So if your manager said in your last review that they wanted you to learn how to do Cyrus’ job so you could back him up when he’s out, put that as one of your accomplishments: “Learned Cyrus’ duties and successfully filled in for him twice when he was on vacation, in addition to completing my regular duties.”

      Whether or not you’re new, list anything that was outside the scope of your regular duties – new projects you took on/were given, suggestions you made that were implemented, that extra thing you did for a client that made them rave about your company on social media, etc.

    12. Jef*

      Agree with all the “in the future” comments. But for right now, I would skim your calendar or completed tasks or similar ‘things that are done’ file and see if that gives you ideas. For me, being reminded of a series of meetings that were related to a big (but forgotten because it was a year ago) project reminds me of things I actually did. Also, review your job description: what did you do awesome on, what did you improve on, what did you streamline.

  16. Pink Glitter*

    I’m so frustrated today.

    When I was trained in this position a year and a half ago, it was all very rote and checklist based. Do this, do this, do this, etc. No real explanations of the whys or how our part in the process connects to the pieces that other departments do. There is still a lot I don’t understand and I hate when one of those things pops up for the first time and people talk to me like I’m some kind of dumbass for not knowing.

    It’s especially irritating when someone sends you a screenshot of something that you can’t see as ‘proof’ that you should have known something. We all have different views into things and I cannot see the notes that other departments put in the system.

    Sorry, just needed to vent.

    1. Phillip*

      I have something vaguely similar where folks will CC me in and out of an email thread only when something actually pertains to me (which I appreciate), then later I’ll ask a question and less tech-savvy participants will act like its a needless retread because they already discussed it (in one of the messages I wasn’t CCd on). Made worse by the fact I’m a bit of a perfectionist so I end up wasting time poring over old emails to try and figure out how I could’ve missed it.

    2. Marion Q*

      I feel you. This is how it went with my training as well, so I found out the whys the hard way and basically have to figure things out on my own.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I think you might work for the company I work for (or one much like it). I’m the person who is wondering why no one knows how to do their jobs and pointing out problems. I always feel so bad when I find out that the person I’m questioning got no training and doesn’t have access to the basic tools that they need to their jobs. If it feels better, I’m sorry that your company sucks and has set you up to fail, and for all of us whose job it is to point that out — most of us know that you are trying to do your best without any tools to do so.

    4. Alianora*

      Yeah, my coworker’s approach to things is very similar to that. When she trained me it was mostly “this is how we do it because our manager said so.” Now we have a new manager who is more into clearly understanding how and why things work, which is really good. I’m trying to be more proactive about asking the why questions and documenting things clearly, even though I’m not really considered “new” anymore. I hope my new manager understands that.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      They are putting you down when they are the ones who do not know you cannot see their notes? hmm. Interesting.
      Can you do a broadcast email letting everyone involved know that you cannot see their notes?

  17. Witchy Human*

    Depressing work anniversaries:
    My nonprofit office goes ridiculously nuts for work milestones. As in: pull you up in front of everyone at the all-staff meeting or holiday party, make you wear a silly hat, make you talk about what you’ve loved in your time in the org, hug the (viciously two-faced) CEO, sing a song.

    My 1-year anniversary is coming up. And I’ve been trying to leave for about…10 months of it. When the organization isn’t straight-up toxic, it’s just phony and annoying (see above). I’ve been a finalist for 4 or 5 jobs, but never quite made it. So the 1-year mark makes me want to cry.

    I’m usually pretty good at grin-and-bear-it for most of our nonsense, but I’m not sure I can manage a sincere-looking smile for this one. I’d lose some We’re a Family! Points it I skipped it and CEO might single me out in some way later anyway. Any advice?

    1. Goldfinch*

      Reframe it in your head. You survived an entire year! You are still looking, but you’ve reached a milestone that many people consider “safe” to avoid appearing to be a job hopper. Celebrate your mental strength.

      1. Quill*

        Take Marie Kondo’s advice and silently thank this job for teaching you that this is NOT the right place for you.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I would personally get a debilitating migraine and have to go home before the recognition event.

    3. Senor Montoya*

      If you cry or tear up, just say, “Stuff like this really gets to me!” Vague enough to cover your real feelings and to let others think “tears of joy”.

      1. Witchy Human*

        In the moment, I’m a little more worried about visibly gritting my teeth or physically cringing away from the CEO. I can manage to save my tears for hiding in the bathroom, but glares are harder to hold back.

        1. Shirley Keeldar*

          Claim a cold? Visibly carry a kleenex and sniff a lot and say, oh, I wouldn’t want to get you sick?

        2. Hermione*

          Ugh, I’m sorry. If you can’t fake a migraine to go home, can you fake a mild cold? Slightly squinty eyes, a coughing fit, and a tissue clenched in your fist could prevent the hug and explain away odd faces if you time it right.

        3. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

          Well, I think the only logical solution is to fake your own death.

        4. Granger Chase*

          Ahh yes, I get what you mean. It’s taken a while for me to develop a poker face and I still struggle with calming my natural instincts to grimace or pull away when people that I don’t care for touch me. To combat the glaring I would say either focus your energy on blinking more frequently (that way it might look like you’re trying not to cry?) or a good ole daydream about your perfect RageQuit! fantasy might give you that glazed over look you can chalk up to sentimentality. Sorry! This sounds like a really frustrating situation and an irritating spectacle you’re being forced to go through.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        I’d say the same, but it sounds like that office would make sure you were there to celebrate you and not go “oops, guess you missed it.”

    5. Dusty Bunny*

      It sounds obnoxious – come up here so we can spend 10 minutes at your expense, pretending we’re such an awesome workplace.
      I would try to exhibit a combination of “aw shucks guys, don’t make a fuss about me,” and “this is my festival queen on a parade float” wave. Done correctly, people should not notice your complete lack of enthusiasm/sincerity for the event, just that you’re playing along in a goofy manner.

    6. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      If you frame things as “don’t mind me, I’m not used to the spotlight” or “I’m a little shy about these things, but [very brief sentence thanking people],” folks will be likely to interpret any of your discomfort as stage discomfort and not please-get-me-out-of-here feelings. This is an introvert tactic that can actually work really well.

    7. bunniferous*

      May you get a great job offer right before and use the occasion to publically give your two week notice.

      (I would pay to see that.)

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        Oh man that would be the best! While they’re making a big deal about Witchy Human’s one year anniversary, they just casually go “and it will be my last. See ya!” *drop mic*

    8. sheep jump death match*

      Professional advice: Reframe it in your head as one of your job duties. Approach it like any other assignment, plan what you will say, warm up your singing voice, come up with a dumb but anodyne quip for the silly hat portion. It was very helpful to me to change my thinking about this kind of forced social interaction to “How do I succeed at this work assignment?” rather than “How to endure this horrid thing?” Like, if it’s a social interaction that is supposed to be fun, I sort of get upset about having to be “fake” or “not having fun.” But if it’s just work, it doesn’t matter that I’m not having fun, my job that day is just to ACT like I’m having fun. And I’m not being “fake,” I’m being “professional.”

      Semi-professional advice: Be subtly shady the entire time. Hug the CEO with a foot of space between the two of you. Say you can’t believe it’s been a year, it feels soooo much longer than that! Make a bunch of comments about how some offices wouldn’t let you wear a silly hat, but luckily no one cares about that sort of thing here! When asked what you’ve loved, say your eyes have been opened to what a unique place it is or you never could have imagined what it was really like to work here. Single out everyone for thanks except the people who will be saltiest about not getting singled out for thanks.

      Not professional at all but satisfying to fantasize about: Tell your manager that work anniversaries aren’t mentioned in the Bible, so you can’t participate. (Don’t really do this! But it’s okay to daydream about.)

      1. M*

        I second all of this, including the hierarchy of professionalism. This workplace sounds a lot like an old workplace of mine, and I found the best way to get through the ridiculously needy and compliment-fishing way the senior management “congratulated” staff was to treat it like an improv skit. They’d be sitting there going “Oh M, aren’t you just so glad you came here? Isn’t this project we have you working on amazing?”, and I’d be thinking “Oooooh, this improv partner is *so* good at this! This is so fun to yes-and!”

  18. Jane*

    I’ve recently been diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome. I work 50-60 hours per week in an industry which is notoriously demanding, aggressive and work hard/play hard. Despite this, I’m at a good company, love my job, and want to keep it.

    My question is…how? My company are being supportive, have reduced my working hours to 35 per week and said they will be reduced further if needed. They’re happy for me to work from home as much as I need, and are dramatically decreasing my work travel. Occupational health are involved. But there’s no getting away from it being a demanding and high pressure role, and everything I find about CFS suggests I’ll need to dramatically cut back my work hours or stop entirely. I’m also nervous of telling people because there’s such a stigma attached.

    Do you know of a way staying in a job like this can work out with chronic fatigue, or a similar illness? What would you advise I do to best navigate it? Are there any success stories out there?

    1. Jane*

      Possible other useful info:

      – I’ve been doing my best to stay upbeat, and most of my colleagues have no idea anything is wrong. I’ve been working from home a lot, but they mostly assume I’ve been travelling for work. But I’m no longer a regular at drinks and tend to be very quiet on the days I’m in the office because I’m struggling so much.

      – I have a great dr who has excluded everything under the sun in coming to this diagnosis. I have several other chronic health conditions, but everything that can be treated is being treated right now.

      – I already have a cleaner, buy batch cooked healthy meals, automate as much as I can…I read the thread a few weeks ago on working long hours and can’t think of anything else I can do to buy time or energy

    2. fposte*

      I’m posting a link from AskJAN specifically about chronic fatigue syndrome in followup, in case it offers any specific suggestions you haven’t considered.

      You say that people usually have to severely cut back hours–but your office has said absolutely, do that, so consider the possibility that that problem is solved. Have you started the 35-hour a week schedule yet? Try that for a couple of weeks to see how it works. Another thing to consider in the mix, if you’re eligible, is FMLA. Your workplace seems willing to give you the equivalent of intermittent FMLA in weekly hours, but maybe it would help to take a week or two off, or be able to do so now and then.

      But some of this may just be you dealing psychologically with the difference between the worker that you want to be and the worker that you currently are. And that’s a difference that sucks, but it sounds like your company has unequivocally said that they want to keep you as the worker you are, so I’d build on that.

      2. Jane*

        Thank you so much for this! Your comment about dealing psychologically with it is spot on…I’m definitely struggling with accepting that this is my reality for now, and that I’m not able to be the worker I want to be.

        I’ve only just started the shorter weeks, and it seems to be helping (though the biggest problem is keeping myself to the hours and not going over. I’ve probably done 38 hours this week, but I’m getting there). The aim next week is to stick to 35!

        Thanks also for pointing out that my company want to keep me – I’ve been both grateful they’re supportive and worried about what it means for my long term position, and that’s really a helpful way of framing their reaction.

        1. valentine*

          If what you want is more time and energy to work more, that defeats the purpose of the reduced schedule. I need a car to get to where a lot of people can walk and trying to conserve energy or reduce pain so I can walk instead would leave me depleted for whatever we’re doing at the destination. If you push to work, you’re taking from rest or play, which may sound good now,but isn’t sustainable. Think of your 35 (and, in future, 25, 20, etc.) as other people’s 40-90(!). I understand if you’re hesitant to take your employer at their word because it sounds like fan fiction, but do try it, for a good, solid amount of time, and see how you feel. Pace yourself. Your employer has gone all-in on you. Now, it’s your turn. You didn’t get here in a week and it should take longer for your to get to your new SOP. Give it at least six months at 35. I think the idea is you’re unlikely to be able to get back to 40, and the goal should be for you to have a good balance, not to stay at max work hours for as long as possible. So feeling good at 35 doesn’t mean you should go for 36+. If you enjoy working, great, but if there’s guilt or shame mixed in, that’s the next thing to tackle.

    3. Anax*

      No good advice, but I’ve also been recently diagnosed with something similar, and… solidarity. It’s hard; I’m doing a little better now but still struggling with feelings of self-worth when I’m not able to do everything I want to. I definitely was just staring at my email inbox, mentally chanting “tired tired tired tired”.

      I’m glad your company is being so supportive; that’s wonderful.

      1. Jane*

        I’m only just realising how much of my self worth is wrapped up in work and being busy, deliberately stepping back from things and knowing it might be long term is surprisingly hard.

        The inbox chanting is definitely something I’ve done too. I hope things get better for you :)

    4. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      That’s tough, OP, and I’m really glad your job is doing everything they can to accommodate you! How are the 35/hr weeks going? Combined with WFH, maybe this will make a difference, especially because you were working such overtime before. It sounds like you’re doing everything you can, but I wonder if – if needed – you could serve in a consultative function as opposed to being a full-time employee. Might allow you to take on projects seasonally and build in rest time in between? This is totally dependent on the nature of your work, though, so not sure if that’s a viable option. It sounds like your employer is willing to get flexible, so the only other thing I’ll note is that going down to a 4-day or 3-day week is another alternative. My BFF has Lyme /PCOS and these built-in “days off” mean she has time to recharge so she can actually use her weekends doing what she needs and wants to do.

      1. Jane*

        I’ve only just started the 35/hour weeks, and so far they’re an exercise in sticking to the hours and not letting myself go over (surprisingly difficult, more due to me wanting to get things done than external forces) and wondering what on Earth people do with their evenings… I’m so used to working late, feeding myself, and going straight to bed that having a couple of hours to relax and read or whatever is pretty alien.

        I’ve been thinking about going down to a 4 day week as a possibility. I’m struggling so much by the end of the week, a break midweek to recover seems sensible. If the reduced hours don’t work I think it’s the next thing to ask for – great to know that it’s so helpful for your friend!

    5. Pamplemeow*

      I’d love to hear about how you & others got to the point of being diagnosed with CFS…perhaps tomorrow’s open thread is a better place to do so. I’m tired literally all the time, no matter how much sleep I get or what physical activity I’ve done. I’ve been this way for as long as I can remember (I am a 25yo female). But whenever I go to the doctor all they do is blood work (my levels are always normal) and then tell me I need to eat better and exercise (I already eat pretty healthy and do moderate exercise). It’s like, what can I say to my doctor for them to realize that this is a serious problem and not just me being lazy??

      1. Jane*

        Ugh, my sympathies. I’ve had so many doctors visits like that. For me, there have been a handful of doctors in my life who have actually listened and investigated further – for the rest, it felt like because I could work and looked healthy on the outside they just dismissed everything as anxiety related. I’m mid-30s and have seen a definite uptick in drs taking me seriously now I’m older, which is no help for you right now.

        One thing I have found helpful is to be very specific about how the tiredness impacts you and what you need to do to manage it. E.g. if you push yourself too hard at the gym you have 3 days where brushing your teeth and feeding yourself is all you can manage, and showering or leaving the house is out of the question. I have also in the past researched things myself and asked for specific tests to be run. Happy to discuss further on the open thread tomorrow!

      2. Jennifleurs*

        For me (aged about the same I think) the thing that seemed to worry the doctors was me saying that I couldn’t drive for longer than an hour without falling asleep at the wheel. I agree with the other reply, concrete examples are good. Also after my bloods came back fine, I specifically asked to be referred to a sleep centre for investigation.

    6. Argh!*

      I wouldn’t borrow trouble at this point. Take things as they come. If you are -J on the Myers-Briggs J vs. P dichotomy, this means being more “P” about things. Even if you have a “typical” set of symptoms now, there may be new drugs in the future or your case may not be as typical as it seems now. Everyone is individual.

  19. Half-Caf Latte*

    Yesterday’s update about Tom hit me hard.

    I work with a Tom. My Tom is wonderful to work with, professional and competent and polite, and has been angling for a raise/title change for a year.

    My org has been totally crappy about it, although I’m not clear how much is our boss and how much is our org.

    Tom’s definitely looking to leave, and we won’t get to keep them, and I doubt replace them with someone as good. It sucks.

    1. Word from the Wise*

      That’s how it goes. Happens all the time when one isn’t recognized and rewarded and leaves.
      Often the best way to get a big raise!

    3. FormerFirstTimer*

      I work with a Tom! They are my boss and I already know that they are looking to leave. And while I absolutely understand why they are leaving (the CEO is extremely verbally abusive to them and the whole situation reminds me of a domestic situation that hasn’t quite blown all the way up yet), my boss is literally the best boss I have ever had and it will devastate the entire company when they leave.

    4. Aurion*

      I had an external contact (a sales rep, I’m in procurement) who was a Tom. He rightly left his organization, and in my goodbye email to him I told him that of my vendor reps, he was the best one by miles, and that while I was sorry to lose him, I envy his future clients.

      That was like two years ago. He’s still the best I’ve ever met. Superstars have options.

  20. twbb*

    Anyone work in the for profit/business field as a licensed social worker? If so, any advice on job searching such as keywords, titles, etc.?

    1. Insurance Worker*

      Yep! If you’re looking for insurance: Utilization Reviewer; Case Manager. Go to the insurance carriers in your area and look through their jobs or search LCSW or whatever your credentials are is another way to try that.

  21. Alternative Person*

    My boss was upset about something today (I’m not entirely sure what) and decided to deal with it by being peevish. I thought the whole conversation was odd, and brought it up to someone at one of the satellite branches who started complaining about company culture, so I guess something is up.

    The weather is bringing me a long weekend though. I’m going to be stuck in, but better with video games than my petty boss.

  23. The Green Lawintern*

    My supervisor told me I needed to take PTO for the bar admission ceremony, which is two and a half hours of my day including travel. She regularly takes 1 hour+ appointments completely unrelated to work, no PTO whatsoever.

    I’m salty, y’all.

    1. Llamas@law*

      That’s bs. Assuming that this is a job in the legal field, being admitted is a job requirement. This is petty and dumb of her.

      1. The Green Lawintern*

        It’s technically not a hard requirement for the position, but pretty much everyone in the office is an attorney, and we specifically look for law school grads/attorneys when we hire. I’m honestly mostly peeved about the hypocrisy of it though.

    2. Amber Rose*

      That is a good reason to be very salty. Not enough popcorn in the world for that salt. People just mummified in a 10 mile radius around from all the salt.

      Congrats on your bar admission though, that is a most awesome accomplishment.

        2. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

          Congratulations! And yes, your manager is an ass. You should not have to take PTO for couple hours out of the day.

    3. Auntie Social*

      Do you want to go all the way to the ceremony? Is it that big a deal to you? We had our associate sworn in by a local judge and handed him a file for an afternoon hearing.

      1. The Green Lawintern*

        I would actually be more than happy to have a low-key ceremony like your associate’s, but from all the communications I’ve received it seems like alternative arrangements are only a possibility in extreme cases, like impending military deployment. And even if I did it that way, I’d still be salty!

        1. Auntie Social*

          Well my boss is a pretty big dog, so he called the courthouse and asked presiding, and she called San Fran (I think) and explained about many Latina grandmas and aunts who really couldn’t make the trip. (They did attend the swearing in in San Diego and I haven’t seen so many wheelchairs outside of a hospital. One of the bailiffs thought someone was dying!) It was quite touching. And we had a little cake, and photos with each abuela, and then we left Mike his afternoon file (it was just for a continuance). But maybe they dont let you do that anymore.

        2. Coverage Associate*

          Yes, in California anyone who can administer an oath in court can swear in an attorney. It’s just you have to make those arrangements yourself if you’re skipping the big ceremonies. I was sworn in at my office by a court reporter after hours.

          I don’t know about other states.

          I now realize you can’t be in California because our bar results aren’t out yet.

    5. Dzhymm*

      Take the whole day as PTO, attend the ceremony, then spend the rest of the day sending out job applications…

    7. Managing to get by*

      If it is not required for your position, and if you are hourly/non-exempt and she is salaried/exempt this makes complete sense.

      In my job, I’d be in trouble for letting a non-exempt employee stay on the clock for 2.5 hours if it was non-work related.

    8. KAG*

      This reminds me of the poor woman whose boss wouldn’t let her attend her college graduation because she couldn’t find anyone to cover her shift. Lots of jobs (especially the retail hell it sounds like she was stuck in) don’t “require” a college degree, but college graduation is a Big accomplishment.

      I use this example to illustrate that degrees, even if not directly related to the job (I.e. the OP is at one of those bar exam or out firms), educate one in so many skills transferable to many, many professions (communication, disciplined thinking, the expertise that allows them to identify that something seems a little hincky, even if it’s not an area of expertise… I could go on).

      And from a human perspective, passing the bar is a LOT OF WORK and a major, major accomplishment. Of course employers are perfectly free to be unreasonable and inconsiderate, and naturally, I don’t know all the facts, but I would anticipate a bunch of your colleagues coming to cheer you on! Not sure when your ceremony is, but you have one fan out here in the USA.

    9. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      That sucks! Way to nickel-and-dime your employees, The Green Lawintern’s manager!

  24. Laura H.*

    How long should one wait before reapplying to a job you didn’t get?

    The position is Part time front desk at a gym and I think I applied in Jan/Feb of 2019. Have worked a seasonal jewelry sales gig (Next season is Christmas- so I do have that in the wings) and at a snack shop since (still on their payroll, but doesn’t see enough traffic to give me hours- I’m appreciative of the honesty)

    I need to get a job for my sanity more than anything else right now. I’m on the fence about applying again.

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      I’d reapply. Just because you didn’t get the job doesn’t mean you weren’t qualified; it just meant that someone else was more qualified.

      A lot of places are having a hard time finding workers, so I think you still have a chance. And if they remember you, it’s okay that you are still interested in working for them even after not getting a previous position.

    2. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      If you submitted an application and were not contacted about the job, I would apply again. But if they brought you in or spoke to you on the phone about it, I wouldn’t re-apply unless something has significantly changed that you think would make them consider you this time over the last time.

      2. International Holding, Unlimited*

        Disagree. If the company regularly hires in classes or multiple roles at a time, then this is accurate – they probably would have taken you if they were interested at all. My old job did that, and there were people who applied over and over. After the second time, we’d stop bringing them in for an interview, because we were rarely hurting for space in our classes.

        If the company only hires one at a time, it’s quite possible that there were several qualified candidates and only the most qualified made it. Allison talks about this constantly when people are hurt over rejections. In that case, it absolutely make sense to reapply.

    3. Aggretsuko*

      If they didn’t want you the first time, why would they want you a second time?

      I say this because I applied for a job a second time this year (after a 4 year gap) and they still didn’t want me, so what was the point.

      I get needing a job for your sanity, but….well, what can you do?

      1. LunaLena*

        I don’t think it hurts to reapply. Just because they didn’t pick you the first time doesn’t mean they didn’t like you, just that they didn’t like you the most. I once got a job where it went to someone else the first time (the person it went to was related to someone in the organization, so that someone lobbied hard for their relative), and then that person didn’t work out so they asked me if I was still interested. That job turned into a 10-year working relationship that was partially responsible for getting me into my Current Awesome Job.

        At my current job I’ve interviewed the same lady at least 3-4 times for different (but similar) positions. I feel really bad for her because she makes it to the finalist stage each time, but gets beaten out by someone with slightly better qualifications each time. It’s not that we didn’t want her, she was clearly qualified and we would have been happy to hire her if she hadn’t been edged out every time. Sometimes the Always a Bridesmaid, Never the Bride situation happens.

        Besides, if you do reapply, what’s the worst that happens? They don’t hire you? It’s not like they’re going to show up on your doorstep to taunt you.

        1. LunaLena*

          And if they do show up, you can always ~RAAAAAAAAGE~ at them in your best demonic death metal voice. (<3 that show, by the way)

  25. Chris in NY*

    Today is the last day in my role at my company; Monday I start a new role that will require a move to another state.

    I’m dreading this new job before I even start. Moving from hourly to salary, so I’m taking a 20% paycut. Moving to a more expensive area of the country (don’t worry HR has their “research” to show that it’s cheaper!). Working for a boss that during the hiring process has been inattentive at worst, and only giving advice on things AFTER I’ve already done them. Plus, this manager is known in the company as not great (a previous mentor who I loved working for described my new boss as “a dope” when we were discussing the new position).

    The universe is screaming at me to not take this job, but unfortunately my current role is ending due to customer contracts dwindling, so I take this or end up with no job by the end of year. I’m very excited about all of this.

    1. Word from the Wise*

      Good luck! Maybe you can come in and shine and be recognized for your skills and teamwork. If not, move on.

    2. Havarti*

      Maybe moving to another state with a higher COL, taking a 20% pay cut, and working for a useless boss are no big deal for some people but those are massive red flags to me. I understand needing a job but you do have some free will here. Are you job hunting? Because if you’re not, you should be. Ideally you should’ve gotten out before needing to relocate. If you did try and it didn’t work out, keep trying. Maybe check some numbers on whether it’s really worth it to move. Could you actually afford to pay rent and eat in the new city? Would you stay there or move back if you looked for a new job? Do you have enough savings to escape now? Good luck!

      1. Chris in NY*

        Thanks, I’ve been getting red flags all over the place and acknowledging they are red flags, but moving forward anyway. Let me say that if I was not already an employee of this company, I would not be taking this job.

        I have been looking for other roles, but unfortunately my industry in this region is drying up, so what is left is already pretty tight. I will be able to afford to live, and my wife’s business is picking up, so hopefully things will be alright. I’ve been applying cross industry but started too late, and already signed the offer letter for my new role.

        Not trying to say “the universe is mean to me!”, because honestly I am lucky to be doing what I do, just having extreme pre-regret about the situation.

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          Ugh, yes, as a freelancer I’ve had to take several jobs I pregretted at the time. I hope yours turns out to be ok, and if the new managers rep proves to be accurate, that you can move out from under them as soon as possible.

    3. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

      Oh man, this is a terrible position to be in – I sympathize. But maybe it won’t be as bad as you think it will. Have you looked into job opportunities in the new city? I would keep my eyes open if I were you once I moved in case this place does end up living up to your low expectations. Then at least you’ll have an idea about the job market and can get a jump on applying for something else.

      1. Chris in NY*

        I plan on subscribing to the local business journal and attending the (major Midwest university) business school and get my MBA while there. (No cost due to GI Bill.) Hopefully if things are still bad in 2 years, I will have a better handle to transfer companies.

        1. Filosofickle*

          Yay for the GI Bill! My SO is attending grad school right now on his and we are so grateful for those benefits – full tuition + COL. (His choice of schools was limited to get max benefits, but he was still able to find a school he loves.) Definitely take advantage of free education.

    4. Eleanor Rigby's Jar*

      Maybe this is an opportunity for you to try a new work style. My work style from when I started my job (over 10 years ago) is not the same as my current work style. I look back and wish I had been more quietly confident and authoritative. My skills really haven’t changed that much over the years, but my attitude has. A recent reassignment of responsibilities from another dept. saw me calmly pushing back and refusing some of the responsibilities (there was not way to do all successfully, and it was just assumed they could push the work to our dept. without discussing it with us first) – whereas if that request had been made when I started I would have been in an anxious panic for days, scrambled to try to make it work and felt guilty regarding my performance.

      Maybe you were previously a Leslie, and now is a good time to try being a Ron.

      1. Chris in NY*

        I’m moving from a lead teapot repairer to a teapot marketer, so while learning the new role, I am just going to try and remain open and push negative thoughts out of my head and learn as much as I can. Once I have a handle on things, I plan on pushing back against issues I already see (like an 8PM meeting every other Friday that I just learned about).

        1. Blue Plate Special*

          I’ve found it helpful to remember when working at a less-than-ideal job/for a less-than-ideal boss/work culture — that ultimately, I work for CompanyME. I work for me, and I’m contracting my time out to company. So if boss/coworkers/job are creating stress/obstacles/no positive feedback, I remind myself that companyMe really appreciates the way I’m addressing this difficult assignment, and that I’m doing great just showing up and staying the course, and that we are doing everything possible to get a new contract if the current one is horrible.

    5. Mama Bear*

      So you’re staying with the company, just relocating? When I had to double my commute to keep a job (same company, new office) I pretty much immediately started looking for a different job. If this isn’t a move you want to make but you can’t afford not to go, I’d make the move as minimalist as possible and keep looking for another job.

      1. Chris in NY*

        Correct. Pretty much my plan at this point. Required to remain employed for 2 years or pay back a bonus. I would probably stay in the new area, as I have no family where I currently am. Thanks.

        1. ..Kat..*

          You may want to consult with an employment lawyer. Do you really have to pay back a bonus if your job is going away and all the employer is offering is a different type of job with a 20% pay cut that you have to move for?

          1. Patty Mayonnaise*

            Seconding a chat with a lawyer – I have no law background but I’m curious if the contract would stand since they are essentially putting you in a different job!

          2. Chris in NY*

            Sorry, the bonus is for taking the new job. If I leave within a year of my transfer, I have to pay back the moving package. If I leave within two years, I have to pay back the bonus.

  26. LilacLily*

    Are people with ADHD considered disabled?

    A bit of background: today at work we had a really great talk with a guy who’s the head of the diversity group in his company, and when he was listing the types of disabilities that the employees who participate in his group have, he briefly mentioned people with autism, and it got me thinking. I was diagnosed with ADHD a few years ago; it’s not severe, but it’s definitely there if you look for it (a coworker gave me a heads up when I was nineteen, and it still took me a few years to get professionally diagnosed because ~denial~). I know that it affects some aspects of how I work and process things – for instance, loud noises bother me greatly, I have to change the way I’m sitting every few minutes because I find it very hard to stay still for even short periods of time (I have a fidget cube that I use at work), tasks with no set deadlines stress me out because I am VERY prone to getting distracted and/or procrastinating, I work better when I have two monitors that allow me to multitask, studying topics that I find difficult or uninteresting by myself is incredibly difficult because it’s almost impossible for me to keep focused, and so on.

    I’ve been job searching for a whole, and sometimes companies will ask if I have some sort of disability, and now I’m wondering… do I? Is ADHD considered a disability, even if most of the time I can easily pass as a neurotypical person? Should I tick the “yes” box in forms that ask if I have a disability or is it for the best that I don’t disclose this information at all?

    2. Allypopx*

      It can be covered by the ADA, and there are accommodations for it on the JAN network, so for all intents and purposes, yes.

      That does NOT mean you have to check the disability box. Even if you plan to ask for accommodations. It is 100% up to you if that’s something you disclose and many, many people would not be comfortable doing so until they have an offer or have been at the company for awhile, if ever. It’s entirely your choice.

      1. Allypopx*

        (Sorry to all who will inevitably cringe at “JAN network”. I am too, would edit if I could. On my way to get money out of the ATM machine…)

          1. Allypopx*

            Job Accommodation Network! It’s really helpful if you’re asking for accommodations because it gives you a list of things people tend to find useful, so you get an idea of what to ask for, and you can show them to your employer as normal requests.

            Google “Job Accommodation Network” it’s the first result. It came up on the asking for accommodations thread the other day and I’m in love.

            1. LilacLily*

              Oh. My. God. I love this website so much! It’s super useful! Thank you so much for sharing! :D

              I’m not from the US but the JAN website is incredible, I’m saving it for the future!

            2. Third or Nothing!*

              Oh man that site is neat! Too bad they don’t have anything on PCOS. I did see a section on chronic pain that listed telework as a reasonable accommodation, but I’m not sure I can claim I have a disability when I’m usually able to function so that very few people know I even have a hormone disorder. I mean, my coworkers see me refuse dairy and sugar and take a sick day every 5 weeks but I doubt they’ve pieced it together.

              1. Allypopx*

                “I have a chronic pain condition that flares up semi-frequently” would be perfectly reasonable, in my opinion.

                1. Third or Nothing!*

                  I have called it simply a chronic issue that flared up again when asking my boss to take a sick day, and he never has any objections. The option to work from home would be so much nicer than burning through all my sick leave, though. I wonder if I should try being more explicit? When I ask if I can WFH because I don’t feel well, he tells me to take a sick day instead.

                2. Allypopx*

                  Yeah I would probably tell him that you’re burning through a lot of your sick leave due to the chronic nature of your condition and you’d love to find an occasional telework setup that would work for both of you so that you have some left if you actually need it. You can say you’re asking for it as an ADA accommodation if you want but I’d look into whether or not your company has a process/requires documentation about that and what that would look like.

    3. AJK*

      You don’t have to tick “yes.” It’s up to you. For years I didn’t, but after my ADHD and anxiety became a factor in my losing two jobs in a row, I started ticking the box on applications. I did when I applied for this job, and I’ve been here for almost four years now. No one has mentioned it at all. I haven’t needed any accommodations here because of the structure of my job, and I err on the side of not disclosing unless there’s a reason, because of bad past experiences. I assume my supervisor could see the fact that I said “yes” on the application and ask me about it, but she hasn’t.
      A co-worker of mine where I am now handles disability issues as part of her job and she says part of defining “disability” under the ADA is how substantially your condition limits you or affects you in life activities – if your condition interferes with your being able to keep a job, or pay your bills, or things like that, then it could rise to the level of a disability. ADHD affects different people differently, so whether or not it is a disability has to be determined on a case by case basis, and how disabled any one individual is also has to be considered on a case by case basis. Some people with ADHD are so disabled by it that they can’t work at all, some just need an accommodation or two, and some don’t need anything at all other than to learn a few techniques for better organization, etc. dependent on their specific job.
      Also, as an aside, I am medicated for my ADHD and without meds I’d be significantly less able to perform my job than I am – a mixup at the pharmacy resulting in a few days without meds showed me exactly how bad it would be if I tried to go without them.

    4. LilySparrow*

      Whether a condition is a disability is less about the name of the condition, and more about your level of impairment.

      If you need an accommodation from your employer, feel free to ask for it – you’re perfectly entitled to. But personally, I wouldn’t go around checking a box like that unless you’re going to need an accommodation during the hiring process itself.

    5. Koala dreams*

      ADHD is generally considered a disability, yes. It’s up to you if you consider yourself disabled or not. I have no idea what those check boxes are for, though.

      1. Allypopx*

        Usually for diversity statistics of some kind, in theory. But there’s definitely an argument to be made that they can lead to conscious or unconscious bias.

        1. LilacLily*

          As LadyGrey mentioned below, I’ve been applying for jobs in the UK, and apparently this is meant so that people with disabilities are guaranteed a first interview at least, which I find very interesting. I do agree that unconscious bias could play a big role in this, though, especially if the hiring manager normally wouldn’t interview me but feels like he must now that I ticked the disability box.

    6. Stornry*

      Sorry but I thought that employers couldn’t ask “do you have a disability?” Prior to or at the time of the interview they can state the essential functions of the job and ask if you can “perform those functions with or without accommodation”. And then, after an offer is made and accepted, then you get to what those accommodations might be. It seems to me that the kinds of accommodations you’d be asking for are quite reasonable.

    7. LadyGrey*

      If you’re UK based, the check boxes are part of a disability confident scheme, where an applicant who ticks that box and fits the basic requirements of the role is guaranteed an interview (not a job!). It’s to get people past that first hump, especially if it’s something that may affect your ability to write an application as impressive /comprehensive as others. Eg, if ADHD makes you prone to skipping important context in writing, where in an interview they’d ask for more information.

      1. LilacLily*

        Ohhh dang I didn’t know that! I am applying for jobs in the UK, and this information is really interesting. Maybe I’ll start checking these boxes from now on. Thank you so much!

  27. Llamas@law*

    I am a lawyer and my law firm is going through some major issues. I have been here almost my entire career. This year I really hit my stride and am doing really well growing my book of business (I am a non-equity partner). However, the leadership of our firm has gone down hill. Many of my colleagues are concerned about decisions being made that help certain older partners (nearing retirement) to the detriment of the longevity of the firm. We are concerned about the lack of strategic planning and looking to the future of the firm. How can we bring this up appropriately? We like our firm and many of the people here but we are very worried and people are looking for other opportunities.

    1. Sometimes Always Never*

      I don’t think this is unusual, to take care of the more senior partners at the expense of the less senior attorneys and the health of the firm. It makes some sense; those nearing retirement are hoping to make their nest egg as big as possible and feel they’ve put in their time, not to mention having created jobs and training for others for period of time. Meanwhile, the younger attorneys may still need training/managing/mentoring and they have a big interest in what has so far been a successful professional training ground where they hope to eventually become senior themselves. It really depends on the equity partners to decide how this will all go, really. If they care about their legacy, they may be open to financial and successorship planning. If not, they may just want to get out with as much as they can. You are smart to have your own book of business that you can take elsewhere. It would make sense to at least see what you’re worth on the open market. The book of business makes you much more desirable, as hopefully at least some of your business can provide work for others. After a certain point, in certain areas of law, if you don’t have any portable business that provides work for yourself and others, you would only be seen as an expensive associate and rarely partner material, and thus less employable. Depending on several factors, though, YMMV, of course. As a non-equity partner, I would hope you could start a discussion about the future and get a better idea where things are heading. Maybe first start a discussion with any other non-equity partners and go from there.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      I would have a serious conversation with the equity partner I’m closest to. I would try to explain how these decisions hurt the equity partners. For example, if high performing income partners and associates are thinking of leaving because of management issues with straight forward fixes, well, no one wants to see high performers leave.

      2. Delta Delta*

        This exactly. It’s terrifying (I know, I did it), but you can do it (I know, I did it). Then you can go make your own firm where you do what you want to do and you can do it how you want or need to do it. It’s lovely, really.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Consider taking some number of your colleagues and splitting. The biggest leverage you have is something like, “I don’t like what you’re doing because there may be nothing left when — I mean, if I become an equity partner. If I leave you sure will be sad to see me go!” Unless you are some outrageous rainmaker for the firm, the old guard won’t stop looking out for their own Number One. Maybe think really hard about looking out for your own Number One and jumping ship before they sink it.

      (I am done with people who are at or past retirement age right now. This failure to figure out succession planning and pass the torch to Gen X and following has burned me across my entire career.)

      1. Annonnymooses*

        It’s a little hard to do succession planning when folks in their 70s are chortling about how they’ll probably “die right in this office, right here!”

        But remember, Gen X? We’re the Slackers. /eyeroll/

      2. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House\*

        Why should people have to retire when they don’t need to? If they are competent, why should they retire for you? Are you willing to retire/quit for someone else? I’m Gen X and we’ve been screwed by both Boomers and Millennials but hey, it’s not up to us to force people to retire.

        1. Lana Kane*

          It’s not out forcing anyone to retire. It’s about people who *could* retire, but choose to hang on to to those positions that everyone else is supposed to grow into. It creates a logjam in the organization, and of course people are going to leave. Hanging on to that cushy salary and the prestige of the job is nice for them, but not great for the organization or anyone else.

        2. Glomarization, Esq.*

          I didn’t say that have to retire. I said I’m sick of seeing firm after firm, or non-profit after non-profit, failing to put succession planning in place. They’re not training the next generation to take on leadership; they’re not planning fiscally for how to handle the business that the equity partners bring in or how to handle those relationships going forward; and they’re opaque about the financial state of the organization. Then surprise (or, of course, not-so-surprise), all the old-heads are gone one day through disability or passing away, and the organization is left adrift.

          When the next generation isn’t brought on in a timely manner to be equity partners, that’s a symptom of a failure of succession planning, with the very real effect on the younger group’s income as well.

  28. Manders*

    Does anyone have suggestions for dealing with work/life balance when the problem’s not work, it’s the commute? A couple years ago, I moved from a place where I could walk to work to one where I’m stuck on a sometimes unpredictable bus line. Between waiting for the bus, riding the bus, and my hour-long lunch break, I’m spending about 3 hours of my day not working but also just sort of… existing while not being able to do anything interesting because of work. I’ve also got a time-consuming hobby that requires me to spend a lot of time sitting still after work too.

    Being so sedentary all day’s been difficult, and I’m struggling with stuff like keeping the house stocked with fresh fruit and vegetables when I only buy groceries every few weeks in one huge run. There’s no gym in my office building, so exercising at lunch isn’t an option. I did get permission to work from home one day per week, and it’s helping a bit but making me wish I could do it more. I set up a standing desk with a treadmill at home so I can walk while I work or do my hobby, which is helping a bit but isn’t a substitute for the active lifestyle I used to have.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for staying healthy and dealing with life when *so much* of your day’s structured around working? I don’t even have long hours, it’s the Seattle commute that’s killing me.

    1. Rose's angel*

      Ive gained weight as a result of my commute which is about 1.5 hours each way. Ive started getting up early and walking my dog a little longer in the morning and at lunch ill try to walk around the block. Often instead of emailing someone I will go see if they are in their office first just so I can get up and walk.

    2. Bird Person*

      When I had the hour long commute I was driving, so a little different, but there were two things that helped me keep my sanity. One was audiobooks and podcasts, both fiction and “educational.” Listening to stories or lectures helped me feel like I was actually using that time, rather than existing for it.
      I also found a yoga studio that was on my way home – like I drove past it on my way home. I did classes 3 nights a week. Since it was on they way, I didn’t really feel like I was losing any evening time (I was still getting home “late,” and at a certain point it stopped mattering), but I felt relaxed, accomplished, and ready to tackle things at home afterward!

      1. Bird Person*

        I don’t really have suggestions about being so sedentary during the day, but it sounds like you’re working on some good ideas already! Good luck! And sorry, I know how rough that kind of commute time can be.

      2. Manders*

        I’ve been thinking of switching to driving–it wouldn’t save a huge amount of time, but it would shave off a bit of the waiting for the bus/waiting while the bus goes on a long, looping route time. I do feel weird about it because the city already has too many people driving and I’d like to keep my carbon footprint low, but ugh, it would be so nice to do stuff like keep gym clothes in the car for an evening class or swing by the grocery store on my commute. Right now I’m tethered to the bus and the bus is, frankly, a pretty miserable place to spend so much of my life.

        1. Bird Person*

          I’m so sorry! What if you drove 1-2 days a week to do those things and rode the bus on other days? That may help to – changing things up a bit.
          I admire you choosing to ride the bus by the way! My commute went through 2 counties so I wasn’t able to, but I wish I could have!

        2. MicrobioChic*

          Your commute doesn’t need to be all bus or all car.

          Maybe drive two days and bus two days?

          One drive day you can hit the gym, the other one the grocery store.

          I have an hour and a half commute each way (bus isn’t an option alas) and fiction podcasts help me keep my sanity.

          I actually wish there was a workable bus option for mine, because that would let me work or read while commuting. I have a job that is a mix of physical activity and sitting down though, so the sedentary part doesn’t get to me as much.

          1. Manders*

            I get a transit reimbursement for either a bus pass or a parking spot, but not both, so I do have to choose one or the other. I guess I could try switching between driving one month and busing another month, but I can’t switch it up day by day.

            1. MicrobioChic*

              Oh, gotcha.

              I’m not used to getting reimbursed for commute related expenses at all, so that issue with switching days hadn’t crossed my mind at all.

        3. Windchime*

          I also do the Seattle commute and I switched to driving about a year ago. I live about 30 miles north of the city and I have to leave the house at 5:15 in the morning so my commute is only 45 minutes or so each way instead of the 90 minutes each way that the bus or train would take. I also work from home 2 days a week; i used to only get one WFH day and it’s crazy what a difference that additional day makes.

          Those are my only suggestions. I wish there was a better option but the bus and train from my town are PACKED. People are lucky to get a seat and I don’t want to stand for over an hour each way.

    3. WellRed*

      Would ordering groceries for delivery, or to have them ready for pick up, help with that piece of it? Can you walk at lunch?

      1. Manders*

        I’ve been having issues with deliveries in my building–some carriers won’t deliver without a signature because there’s a huge package theft problem. My building doesn’t have a doorman or a locking mail area. I’ll look into services that let you pick up groceries, that could help.

        I walk at lunch when the weather’s nice, but it’s Seattle, so there’s a huge chunk of the year when the weather’s not nice.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          Could you do stairs in your building? I did that sometimes in the winter when I was doing very long commutes.

          1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

            Seconding the stairs. My coworkers at my last job used to do this, plus walking laps around the floor, and this seemed to help.

        3. WellRed*

          I don’t know how your office or building is laid out, but I have literally popped on headphones and done laps.

        4. Ra94*

          Could you get deliveries at work? Not practical for heavy shopping, but if you got a few pieces of fruit and veg to bring home, it could help.

    4. Margaret*

      Do you bike? Any way to change part or all of the commute to biking? If you’re already spending a lot of time waiting for the bus, it might not take much or if any more time, and would let you be active for that time.

        1. LizB*

          Yeah, my suggestion was going to be, if the bus line allows you could walk the same distance you used to walk to/from work to the bus stop before you get on. Then at least you’re getting the same amount of exercise.

      2. Manders*

        I’d love to bike, but I’m an inexperienced biker and I’m having a hard time finding a safe route. Do you know of any good resources for mapping out bike routes? Google keeps trying to send me down roads that seem really unsafe. The bike infrastructure in Seattle’s generally okay but my neighborhood is known for being not great–we’re still fighting for basic pedestrian stuff like sidewalks and safe crosswalks.

        1. Margaret*

          On google, are you using it to generate directions and selecting bike as the mode, or using it to show the “Bicycling” layer (the one that’s in the menu that also can select showing traffic?). I don’t often use the former – I might show it once to get a general sense of a route. But that mode definitely takes me on roads that I don’t consider safe for biking.

          I then I switch it to just show the map and the bicycle infrastructure layer (e.g., that shows bike lanes, bike-friendly, etc.), and along with my knowledge of neighborhoods (there are roads that seems to be too small to even be categorized as “bike friendly”, but seriously there’s no traffic on them, they’re fine for biking), I just map out my own route. This probably isn’t the most efficient, I’m sure there are some apps that do better, but the more I bike for transportation the more I have a general sense of how to go for different directions/destinations.

          I’m in Portland, and spend some time on r/cyclePDX on reddit, looks like there’s also a r/seattlebike, so you might be able to get guidance or tips on there.

          1. Manders*

            I’m doing the first thing, I didn’t realize there was a separate layer for bike infrastructure. Thank you! I’ll play around with that and see if I can find a good route. I *know* there’s a bike trail that goes near my office but I can’t get Google Maps to recognize it as a bike route/give me directions for a safe route from my house to the trail.

        3. Sutemi*

          Can you look on Strava for a biking heatmap for your area? It will show the roads and paths that cyclists or runners use in your community.

        4. Ranon*

          You can also reach out to your local bicycle advocacy group and see if they have tips, classes, and/ or group rides that would help you get more comfortable. I took a cycling course with a local group before I really started biking in my city and it made a huge difference in my comfort level, especially when it came to biking with traffic.

          Our city is less of a cycling city than Seattle and has a city specific cycling subreddit with folks that will help with routes, if you’re comfortable with Reddit I bet Seattle has a similar option. People who actually ride in your city will know more than Google does about what routes do and don’t work.

          Or if you have friends that cycle, see if someone would be willing to go with you on a weekend to help scope out a route you feel comfortable with. I like to scope out new routes when traffic is light so I can figure out any weird bits and work around them, and going with someone with experience might help you figure out different options more easily.

        5. Free Meerkats*

          One thing you can do, since you’re evidently not taking express buses and your workplace is paying your ORCA, is put your bike on the bus and get on at your normal stop near home, and get off the bus when it gets to where you feel the infrastructure is safe. Then ride the rest of the way to work. Reverse that in the afternoon.

      3. Alex*

        I struggled with this same problem and switching to bike commuting was GREAT. And way faster than the bus.

        The only thing is that it is too cold for me half of the year! But the summers are nice.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      I recommend using Amazon Prime Now for groceries. It’s free if you have a prime membership and I’ve found that their fruit and veggies are fantastic. The interface is easy to use and the delivery turnaround is pretty quick, so you could put in an order on your commute and eliminate needing to go the store but also keep/increase your access to fresh fruit and veggies.

      You may not be able to go to the gym during your lunch break, but could you go for a walk? I eat at my desk and spend my lunch hour walking, so I routinely walk 3+ miles a day through this alone. It may not be a perfect workout substitute, but it makes me feel more refreshed and gets me to hit my 10,000 steps every day.

    6. CM*

      Same. I had a three-hour round trip to my last job, and it takes a lot out of you. I used to fantasize that maybe the subway would install some exercise bikes to generate extra power. One day.

      If you can afford to buy lunch every day, that can be a good way of getting fresher ingredients as part of your meal (or, if you can afford to subscribe to a meal delivery service or something).

      It might also be possible to see if there’s any interest in your office in having a group yoga class or something, and pitching in to hire an instructor. We did that at my office and a lot of people liked it; plus it was conveniently right there.

      Otherwise, I don’t know. :(

      1. Manders*

        I like that yoga class idea, but I work at a small company–I’m not sure if I could get enough people together to make up a class, and we don’t have any free space in the building for it. I might investigate whether there are any lunchtime exercise classes in the area. I work in a university district but I’m not a student or staff member, so I don’t have access to the university’s gym facilities (which are super nice).

        1. Teacher Lady*

          My grad school alma mater’s campus gym has a membership for “friends of University,” so if one is not affiliated with the university themself but has a friend or family member who is (ex. your roommate is a student, or your coworker is an alum), that not-directly-affiliated person can get a membership. I genuinely have no idea how common this sort of thing is, but if the only barrier to using university facilities is your lack of affiliation, it might be worth reaching out to learn if there are any options there.

    7. Quill*

      I always go for a walk at lunch if it’s at all possible – and if you’re in a city center you can possibly find a gym or a yoga studio that’s closer to your workplace, so you spend your commute time reading/listening to podcasts/playing phone games and winding down after your workout instead of doing the commute before trying to get excercise. For me, the later in the evening it gets the harder it is to even contemplate excercise.

    8. M. Albertine*

      1) Is there any way to condense your lunch hour to half an hour, so that you can leave half an hour earlier? That has helped me.
      2) If not, do you have a semi-private place you could spend some of your lunch break doing an “office workout”? Push-ups, dips, planks, squats, etc. don’t need equipment, don’t get you overly sweaty, and can contribute some activity.
      3) How close are bus stops? Can you pack running gear in a backpack and run to the next bus stop over on the way home, and ride the rest of the way? This requires a lot of timing, but I know people who have been able to make it work.

      1. Manders*

        Condensing my lunch break is a good idea, I think I’ll talk to my boss about that. I’d be somewhat out of step with the office culture, but I think I’ve got enough capital to burn some on making life a little easier.

        It’s an open office and we don’t even have conference rooms right now because of construction, but in a couple of months I might have a more private space for some workouts. I think the construction has really been my tipping point, there used to be spaces in the office where I could read in silence on my lunch break and now that I don’t have that anymore I’m feeling a bit crazy.

        1. International Holding, Unlimited*

          Ooh, that’s horrible. You said you work near a campus – is there any kind of park (summer) or library (winter) that’s open to the public and you could have some quiet time in? The one nice thing about an hour lunch is that you have enough time to walk somewhere, rather than having to inhale your meal and get back to work.

    9. Food Sherpa*

      I do a ten to fifteen-minute sun salutation at work during lunch. I keep a blanket that I can throw down on the floor and do a quick stretch. And a +1000 on audiobooks and podcasts, especially while riding public transportation.

    10. CheeryO*

      You might have to get creative. Maybe a carpool, either with coworkers or through a local carpool matching program? Or perhaps some combination of walking and the bus? I run commute (granted, it’s only 5ish miles), and I will hop and off the free portion of our city’s subway mid-run if it happens to be at a stop. It’s worth the weird looks to save a few minutes!

    11. Adlib*

      Is there any way you could get more work from home time? I guess it depends on your company’s set up and general culture around that. If it’s been a while since you got the one day approved, could you ask again for more? I sympathize with the switch from little/no commute to a long one. I recently did that myself, and I had to rearrange my entire schedule. (Not sure how much longer I can take it honestly.) Good luck!

    12. Frea*

      Could you try getting a subscription box for fresh fruit/veggies or joining a co-op that delivers? We get a weekly box now even though I do shop for groceries weekly, and it’s been a refreshing change. I even ate an apple last week, which may not seem like a momentous occasion, but actually is.

    13. Overeducated*

      I empathize with this struggle because it’s mine too. Commuting is pretty bad. In terms of unpredictability and commuting, I’ve found that if I can replace any legs of the commute with biking, it helps a lot in terms of both physical activity and my sanity. Some days I bike the whole distance there and back and it’s great exercise. Other days I pick up a bikeshare and ride to or from a bus or train station to avoid the unpredictability of connections; if I’d moved further out, I’d do this more than biking all the way, but I also know people who got electric bikes and that speeds it up a lot.

      I think the fresh fruit and vegetables thing is tough, you really do have to do it weekly, and there are basically two ways to go. One is outsourcing – have groceries delivered every week or two, or a CSA if they have delivery ones in your area rather than requiring pickup during business hours. The other is making it a fun activity – in my old job where I had an hour lunch break I found a city produce market I could get to on my lunch break, and I’d often treat myself to a slice of pizza as well, and now I try to get up early Saturday mornings to go to my neighborhood farmer’s market when good fruit and veggies are in season. A lot of hardy winter produce will also last more than a week – apples, onions, squash, cabbage, sometimes kale, etc. You could focus on those, or on your shopping weekend you could roast or prep a bunch of vegetables to use until your next trip.

      In terms of sedentary life and co

    14. Eleanor Rigby's Jar*

      I had a long commute to city. So one night a week I would plan a mid-trip. Get off the train at a different stop, walk to a restaurant, or book store, or dentist , etc., and explore the town, get stuff done. Take a later train home. Because of the long commute, I signed up for online classes at the local CC & used the train time to study.

    15. Buffy*

      Fellow Puget Sound Commuter here. I do the Federal Way to Redmond commute daily and have for over 12 years now. The time has increased from just over 2 hours RT to 3.5 hours daily RT. I listen to audiobooks in the car on my commute as a way of lessening that feeling of spending so much of my time doing nothing. I find that non fiction and classics are great as audiobooks with the occasional fiction story tossed in for variety. We don’t have any on site gym facilities (many close by but schedule makes a decent workout at lunch impossible) so a work friend and I go for a 3.5 mile walk daily. It’s a challenge in the winter with the rain but I keep extra clothes in my office and rain gear so that helps. Then it’s a matter of watching my food intake and making sure that during the day, I get up and walk around a bit every hour. I do a lot of advance meal planning and have help with the yard and the house so I don’t always spend what little time I have left over doing household chores. I have no secret to impart to you. It sucks. Moving isn’t a choice because of extraordinarily high housing prices close to my office. Changing jobs to one closer to my house isn’t an option because few employers in my area pay what I make. I just have my fingers crossed that my manager will change to one who encourages WFH like my previous one did. Current manager is not a fan of it and doesn’t like employees working from home.

      1. Manders*

        Oof, that commute’s worse than mine, my sympathies. Housing prices are just mind-boggling right now, I consider myself lucky to be as close to work as I am.

        Strangely, when my office moved *closer* to my house, my commute got *longer* because the express bus to downtown takes less time and comes more often. Our infrastructure is so weird.

      2. Alas alack*

        Everett to Seattle, here! Solidarity fist-bumps of commiseration, fellow Puget Sku d commuters!

        What is helping me a bit is driving M&F, bus Tues&Thurs, WFH in Wed. So the commute is still looooong (ugh ugh ugh, Seahawks game days!) but I at least have Wed’s no- commute to look forward to. It has truly helped me, that one day at home. Laundry gets done then, as I can do that while working and not lose much work time. With no commute, I can get to the grocery store Wed evening before the rush, so can easily do two store runs a week now.

        Adding exercise in to the schedule … unnnngh. That is the worst. Any exercise = sweating for hours (I am like George Costanza: “The shower didn’t take!”), so exercising at the office or at lunch is a big giant NO. So I have ended up devoting Tues & Thurs evenings to exercise. No chores required, just get myself moving! Even if it is just a walk around the apartment complex! It is *SOMETHING* at least.

        And the next in-city person who chirpily says “soon you will have light rail!” is going to get smacked. 7 years is not “soon”.

        1. Windchime*

          Yeah this is basically my commute, too. As I mentioned above, I drive 3 days a week and WFH the other two. I leave at around 5 AM and that makes the commute bearable, but coming home I run into Boeing traffic and that can be a drag.

          My son does Olympia to Redmond, if you can believe that. He works at night so it’s not terrible but if he ever wants to work a normal (day or swing) schedule, he would be hosed because it would take him hours to get to work.

    16. Alianora*

      I have a very similar situation – 1.5 hour commute each way, usually taking public transit, working from home 1 day a week.

      I usually get groceries on my commute home from work. There are grocery stores at both ends of the train leg of my commute, so if I have a few minutes to kill while I’m waiting I run in and do my grocery shopping. Maybe that’s a possibility for you if you’re in an urban area? In general, getting errands done on my way to or from work helps.

      As others have suggested, I try to take advantage of my time on public transit by reading or drawing. I also try to get the “browsing the internet” urge out while I’m on transit. That way when I get home I can start doing housework and dealing with other life stuff instead of falling into the “Oh, I’ll just check X website for 5 minutes” trap.

      Seconding the half hour lunch instead of an hour. It makes a bigger difference to be able to leave earlier than I would have thought.

    17. Anon for this one*

      You may need to give up or cut back on the hobby (or take up something else that’s more active).

      1. Manders*

        I’ve already cut back on it quite a bit so I can go on hikes on the weekends instead. I don’t think giving it up entirely is a workable idea, it’s a huge mental health booster and the focus of a lot of my social life.

    18. Public Health Nerd*

      Yeah, I live in the area and the commute was awful. Get on the list for a vanpool if you can – a lot nicer than the bus, and a lot more pleasant. See if you can get permission to work from home once a week or every once in a while to get a break. Sometimes shifting your day later or earlier can help the bus reliability a LOT, so maybe look at that if you can. Otherwise, husband used to walk along the bus route – so when he got tired or the bus finally arrived, he could get on the bus but get some walking in.

      1. Manders*

        Oh my god, I totally forgot about the van pool program. I bet a ton of people who work in the same areas as me live up north where the rent is cheaper. Wonderful idea, I’m going to look that up ASAP.

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I second the van pool or try to find a carpool group. If they have a drop off or pick up that isn’t door-to-door (like they pick up/drop off in a church, school or city parking lot) or then you have added walking exercise. For the grocery problem, you could try freezing fresh fruit and veggies to make them last longer. Frozen fruit is good for making smoothies.

    19. NoLongerYoung*

      Bay area here, not quite the same, but… when my office moved from a location 45 minutes (walk + ride, no train changes) to the outlying area, I couldn’t easily take the direct train. It took 2 trains, layover/ switch, plus a much longer walk at the other end (or bus ride), adding an extra hour minimum to my already 3 hour commute (and that’s if they were running on time and I walked FAST to get there for my 25 minute walk to the station each way).

      I wound up driving (but traded down to a super fuel-efficient vehicle compared to the one I had, bought used because that ALSO reduces the carbon footprint). I also watch my commute hours – if I go in at 7, there’s a 20 minute, no traffic drive (less emissions). I exercise near work before I come home, or come home before the commute rush (again, cutting any commute time to the minimum, no stop and go).

      But I gained almost 2 hours a day, plus the flexibility. I use that to stop for groceries, the workout, and meeting friends one night a week for walk and/or dinner. I am also – as I get older – noise adverse (tinnitus) and the train wheels grinding, the music of others, and random noises are wearing on me. I am much happier and able to cope with the stress of my job when I get there – and leave the “peopling” behind when I head home, if I’m not dealing with random strangers, standing on a train or lurching along.

      I know I shouldn’t make a case for driving, but I’m working a high stress job, with around 12 hours a day fingers on the keyboard (only about 5 weeks of the dual projects left), and I really needed those 2-3 hours for my mental health. It has helped.

      I should mention that I also carpool sometimes with a friend, when we can (she has a hybrid), one or both directions. Another option.

    20. Anono-me*

      Can you get a little under the desk pedal exercise machine? (Like riding an exercise bike, except you sit in your office chair. )I got one at Sears a few years back for about $15-20.

    21. Chaordic One*

      I found that taking mass transit was (usually, not always) much less stressful than driving, even if it took a bit longer. Maybe you can find another activity to do while you’re riding to and from work. Listening to podcasts and maybe reading on your smartphone or reading a book or magazine or newspaper while you’re riding.

  29. Rose's angel*

    I am finally giving my notice. I had to give it to a Vice President because my boss isnt in today ( I will be giving her my notice next week). I thought I would feel better but I am so exhausted. This woman has made my life an emotional trainwreck. I have worked for her snd this company for almost 10 years. Shes been nonstop complaining about my weight and food choices. But now that I am finally getting out I only feel drained. Any tips for how to deal with this for the next 2 weeks? I am only taking a long weekend before starting my next job.

    1. Buttons*

      Congratulations on getting out!! Do the minimum you need to do, take your full lunch, take a coffee break. Breath! If she says anything about your weight or food choices, can you say “I am sure not going to miss those comments” Ha!
      I wish you had more than a long weekend before starting your new job, it can be hard to let go of that negativity and start fresh. Good luck! I hope you will let us know how the new job is going.

      1. Rose's angel*

        I wish i did too. But I am planning a long vacation in a few months so it didnt feel roght not starting right away. I will definitely update in a few weeks.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Celebrate! But in all seriousness, I bet her awfulness will be a lot easier to handle once you give your notice. My ability to handle an awful job skyrocketed once I realized that I would be gone shortly and there was nothing they could do to me. What, are they going to fire me? I already have a new job waiting for me! This person sucks and is unreasonable? No big deal, I don’t need to worry about making them 100% happy because I won’t be working with them anymore and probably won’t ever even see them again.

      Remember this person will have no bearing on your future and holds no power over you. Good luck with everything, congrats on getting out!

    3. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      Make sure to find a little time to celebrate – even if it’s just popping open a nice bottle of wine or going out for dinner! You have found a way out of an emotionally damaging situation.

    4. Food Sherpa*

      Any chance you can respond to the weight and food choice comments now that you are leaving? A quick “And comments like that are part of the reason I’ve given my notice!” sounds pretty gratifying to me.

      1. Rose's angel*

        I would love to so far I have been telli g her that my doctor is fine with my weight. I know I should have shut it down sooner but she will retaliate which is why I have held off. I will however be very clear in my exit interview. The weight comments are the least of what shes done.

    6. Chris in NY*

      Congrats! Don’t let the negativity she’s putting out put you down. Use the next two weeks as a long exhale of negative energy. Each day try and do something for “the last time”, and celebrate mentally knowing you won’t be working there for long.

      1. Mama Bear*

        I think you will feel the emotional weight lift by the end of the notice period. Congrats on the new job!

  30. Lois lane*

    How to handle remote work when you’ve just left the company?
    Yesterday I submitted my invoice and closed out my outstanding projects as much as possible. I left an out of office autoresponder referring any questions or concerns to my colleagues.

    Question is, should I check that email account today and/or next week or say adios?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      If you’ve left the company, you should not check the email address anymore because that would be work.

    2. chizuk*

      If you’re done, you’re done, and you don’t work there anymore. Don’t feel any need to keep checking it. In fact, they should really close out your account so you can’t.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        Agreed. Access to email is usually the first thing terminated when an employee leaves.

  31. Forkeater*

    I need advice for staying tough and on message to my direct report. I’ve been their supervisor for about six months, and while I think they are overall doing a good job, I am not getting what I need from them. When I make a direct request, such as “how did you calculate that metric” or “please send me your data file so I can use it” they push back and obfuscate until frankly, I just give up. I know this is not good management. But I find their behavior so bizarre, and my interactions so wearying, that I have been in avoidance mode. I know this needs to stop. How can I grow a spine and get what I want, and what I know is a reasonable request, without getting overly emotional* or failing under the weight of their continued resistance.

    My manager – formerly their manager – has my back 100% thank goodness, but feels it’s not helpful for them to intervene (as part of the issue seems to be this person tells me to talk to my manager instead of them, or cc’s my manager when it is not appropriate to do so).

    All of our interactions are so weird because this person presents as being nice, open, and friendly, but seriously pushes back on every request. It would be much easier if they were openly hostile. I’ve dealt successfully with that many times.

    *The last time I took a stand, when they refused to have one on one meetings with me, I did get my way but was embarrassed by how much I let my emotions show in the conversation.

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      They are not “overall doing a good job” if they cannot respond respectfully to simple tasks.

      The key here is to focus on the work, and not on the personality or emotions around this. Focus on what they need to do and give to you so that you can do your work. Also realize that if this person doesn’t improve, you may need to let them go.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        They are not “overall doing a good job” if they cannot respond respectfully to simple tasks.

        This. Forkeater, this is insubordination and needs to be nipped in the bud immediately. I would have a conversation with your report where you explain to her that when you request information from her as apart of your job duties, it’s one of her job duties to comply with your requests without the need for a long back and forth. If she can’t do that, then she needs to go on a PIP.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      Have you talked about the pattern with them? You need to treat this as a performance issue because it is. So don’t just push on whatever caused them to push back, push on the actual push back.

    3. LKW*

      Have you had the discussion about the attitude? It sounds like you’re addressing the push back and not the larger issue about satisfying reasonable requests. Have you said “I’m concerned about this specific behavior, here are three incidents where I’ve had to make demands because you refuse to provide the information requested. This behavior is not conducive to the environment, work, etc and I need you to understand your job is at risk if I can’t rely on you to provide me the information requested.”

      Have you stated outright that refusal to provide clarification of methods used or the raw data is unacceptable?

    5. fposte*

      Is a PIP under consideration? Do you have firing-level authority? An employee who regularly doesn’t send a data file in response to “Please send me the data file” is a problem, not an asset. Even outside of a PIP, I’d certainly say it’s time to cover this in a meeting: “Jane, on Tuesday I asked for the data file. Instead of the data file, you sent me an email about other things. I only got the data file on Thursday after making several requests. I had a similar response when I asked you to provide your calculations for the AAM account. It’s a problem for me when I ask you for something straightforward and I don’t get a timely and clear answer. I need a commitment from you, in order to do this job properly, to responsive communication in future. Can you do that?” Another possibility, depending on how good her work is, is to lay out the problem and ask her what’s up with that. “I asked you to send me a data file and you balked. That’s a problem. What was going on there?”

      2. International Holding, Unlimited*

        +1 for “What’s going on here?”

        “Hey, getting this info from you was like pulling teeth. Providing this stuff is an important part of your job. What’s going on here?”

        You don’t go in accusatory (well, my script is a little sharp because OP’s person sounds horrible), and it lets the employee explain themselves to the best of their ability. Whether it’s a legit issue or not, knowing what’s really going on will let OP address the issue head-on.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      When you plan to talk about the pattern (which is what I think you should do),
      1) Ask your boss for advice on wording, etc
      2) PRACTICE. Get a friend to role-play it with you, walk through it out loud.
      3) Follow-up: Every time they resist a request say, ‘This is what I was talking about in our November discussion. So give me the data file right now or [we start that PIP / your PIP is extended / do we need to talk about your exiting process].’
      4) Be prepared to fire them. Sucks, but if they can’t work with you, they can’t.

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        I like the idea of practicing, and of having a follow-up script when they push back. And then just repeating the follow-up script without variation when they continue to push back.

      2. International Holding, Unlimited*

        Another possible escalation is “This has been going on for X time. We’ve had several meetings, we’ve talked through [alternate workflows, how to handle your emotional constipation, whatever the issue is], and I’m not seeing the improvement that I was looking for. I think at this point, we need to talk about whether this is the right position for you.”

        It’s not the same as threatening someone’s job like “do this or you’re fired! Fired, I say!” but it gets the point across that they’re on very thin ice.

    7. CM*

      At the moment, we don’t know why this is happening, and I think the best thing to do is ask. Try to do it in a curious, open-minded way if you can, and focus less on getting the person to do what you want (at this stage) and more on information gathering.

      I once read a self-help book that called this the “lantern stance” and I like that — the idea is that you’re inviting the other person to step into the lantern light with you so that you can both clearly see and understand what’s going on. So, express that you’re frustrated because you don’t understand why they refuse to send you the data files, and then let them express the reason why, and go from there.

      I can’t guarantee that you won’t still get mad, especially because you let it fester this long, but the more you can approach it as a fact-finding and problem-solving mission as opposed to a dominance contest, the better off you’ll be.

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      If someone refused to send me their data, or reveal how they calculated a metric, my first suspicion would be that they’re making it all up. Is that a possibility?

      1. Forkeater*

        I had access to the raw data in this case, but this person had performed an analysis on it – and I needed the analysis cut in a slightly different way. I was eventually able to replicate the number and then perform my analysis off that. It would have saved me a lot of time and effort if they had shared their data file. Typing that out, I cannot believe I did that.

        1. Allypopx*

          Sometimes you just need to see it in writing, or say it out loud. Managing is harder than people think it is, you’re going to be fine. Good luck, I’m glad you were able to get some actionable advice here.

    9. Eleanor Rigby's Jar*

      You are being played. And you are bringing your emotions to every interaction/every avoidance.

      You ask them for something directly, they push back and obfuscate. Call them out at the time.
      “Please send me the data file by 2pm” “blah blah blah, no I can’t”
      “When can you send the data file” “blah, blah, blah, never”
      “That is not acceptable, you need to send it by 11am tomorrow” “blah, blah, blah, your manager”
      “Bob, I expect that file by 11am tomorrow.”

      Keep it robotic on your part. He wants you upset. So be dead inside. Keep to the facts.
      Make a request, set a deadline, document and write him up when he misses it. Document everything.

      1. HR Stoolie*

        Can I add, “Bob, to clarify, you’re refusing to send the requested file/meet the deadline?”
        Depending on the response I might add “your refusal is noted” and of course document the exchange.

      2. NACSACJACK*

        Forkeater – In every case where I have been promoted over by other younger people, the reason given is “NACSACJACK, you need to manage your emotions”. As a manager you have to emulate the behavor desired in others. Since you’re in management, you have to be very EQ-present in your role. Pounding the table isnt going to endear them to you, creates a hostile environment and could be grounds for a lawsuit. Show me the reason you’re in your position. Be the manager you want to be.

    10. Forkeater*

      Thank you so much everyone, it was great to get a reality check that this behavior is as unacceptable as I felt it is.
      Using a lot of your wording, I have come up with a good script for our meeting next week. I’ll practice it with my friends this weekend!
      I will be documenting the meeting and letting them know I am documenting it.

    11. OhBehave*

      This sounds like a teen pushing the boundaries!
      What is the background here? Was this person a contender for your job? Were you peers before your promotion? If the answers are yes, then that’s the underlying issue.
      Lots of the advice/scripts provided are a good start. But if the above answers are yes then that may change your scripts a bit.
      It’s good your boss has your back but they don’t if they haven’t offered any concrete advice. What do they do when they receive an email that should go to you? They should nip this in the bud immediately.
      Please update next week.

      1. Easily Amused*

        “My manager – formerly their manager – has my back 100%”
        Sounds to me like you were peers and now this co-worker is reporting to you and has not come to terms with it. Also seems like maybe your manager has said to you “yes, you are their manager here.” but perhaps they haven’t said the same to difficult co-worker in no uncertain terms? In which case, said manager needs to do more to have your back. Sounds like you have a plan to push back on the pushing back – much luck!

  32. RussianInTexas*

    It’s not my story but partner’s.
    Partner is a part of the recruitment team for his group in a large energy company. Cyber security division, company known for good pay, benefits, and overall relatively prestigious place to work.
    Couple months ago they had a group interview event for the fresh grads (masters). One of the guys got below “performed as expected” on the coding test partner graded (for his company to make an offer you have to get 3 out of 4 Exceed expectations, and no “below expectations” at all). His notes were: he has potential, but not in my specific group and not on the projects we work on, if there is another place in the company for him – I have no objections.
    Partner himself is not allowed to talk to the applicants outside of the event, they are not suppose to have his contact info, etc. He is not a hiring manager, but if you know the company’s e-mail naming convention you can figure it out.
    So this guy keeps sending e-mails – how come others from the even got offers and I did not! Partner ignores him. 4 or 5 e-mails.
    Then the actual rejection letter went out. The dude blew a gasket. He sent a very nasty e-mail to the partner, to other people who interviewed him (3 others), and to the HR lady.
    So, needless to say he is completely blacklisted from the company now.
    Seems like a bad strategy to get hired.

    1. Adlib*

      No kidding. You can bet that his name was mentioned to other employers in the industry so he’s probably also black balled himself from other jobs as well.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        He told me his HR person is a grumpy Russian woman and SHE thought the applicant was rude.
        As a Russian person, I LOLed.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Oh, man. This reminds me of a story one of my professors told in my last semester at university. It was a course on business communication, and one of his lectures touched on ways you *don’t* want people in your professional field to remember you. He ended with “This guy turned into a story that got told at industry dinner parties for years. Don’t do what he did. Don’t ruin your own chances.”

  33. Please Hire Me!*

    Interviews.

    I think my resume and cover letter are pretty good. I do get invited to interviews from time to time, but I don’t get job offers. Am I doing something wrong? Why am I never a “good fit” for the position? Also, I feel really embarrassed every time I get rejected–I feel as though I humiliated myself in front of these interviewers. This is especially true when I personally know the interviewer. When I leave the interview, are the interviewers talking to each other about how awful I am or about some stupid thing I did in the interview?

    Is anything worse for one’s self esteem than job hunting? Maybe weight loss attempts or parenting.

    1. KayDeeAye*

      There are very few things harder on your self-esteem than job hunting!

      As for what you’re doing wrong, it could be that you’re doing nothing wrong at all – it’s just that somebody else did more things that are right.

      Of course it’s also possible that you need to work on your interview skills. Have you tried rehearsing for interviews? Find a friend who can be both kind and direct and rehearse answers to common interview questions. That can be really helpful.

    2. fposte*

      Oof, that sounds hard. It also sounds like you’re torturing yourself a bit by imagining ways in which hiring teams are making this personal about you, and that’s really not likely to be happening.

      When you’re hiring for a single open position, usually many people you interview would be fine in the job. It’s not that they’re doing something wrong. They’re just getting beat out by somebody else. It’s pretty common for hiring teams to say “Shoot, I wish we had more open positions; I’d love to hire these other interviewees as well.”

      It’s possible that you could raise your interview game, and maybe that’s worth considering. If you personally know the interviewer, they might be willing to give you a little help. “Hey, Jane, thanks again for considering me for the Llama Wool job. I’m finding it hard to get past an interview and I wondered if you could give me any feedback for improving. If you could tell me to work on one or two things, what would they be?”

      I hope for better luck for you soon.

    3. CM*

      Job hunting really sucks.

      It’s impossible to know without watching you interview whether there’s something you could do to improve, but I second the suggestion to ask the interviewers you know personally if they have any feedback.

      I don’t think it needs to be humiliating, though, and it might be worth thinking more about why that’s your reaction and what story you’re telling yourself about what’s happening. I know you said it’s because you feel like you humiliated yourself in front of the interviewers, but how? In what way? You don’t have to post about it here, but it might be interesting to consider that privately and try to figure out what’s going on.

      Good luck.

      1. KayDeeAye*

        Yeah, it’s really, really unlikely that you did anything worthy of feeling humiliated. There’s nothing humiliation-worthy about not being offered a job! So I think CM is right and you should try to dissect that feeling and figure out why you’re feeling that way.

    4. mreasy*

      I don’t know if this helps, but I have hired for many roles over the years, and most of the time it is agonizing to choose one great candidate over another who also seems great! Not getting the job doesn’t mean your interviewers think poorly of you at all – it’s likely it was close and they would have happily hired you if someone else hadn’t been just a bit more qualified or impressive. I know job hunting is incredibly demoralizing, and I wish you al the best luck for a new position soon!

    5. Admin Formerly Known as Actor*

      I agree with fposte and CM – I don’t know if this will be helpful, but it’s helped me with both auditions and interviews in the past. Remember that most of the time, the interviewers want you to solve their problem, so they’re at least partially on your side. They want you to be the person who fills the need they have, so they aren’t out to get anyone, which means that unless you do something absolutely horrifying like make a racist joke or something they aren’t going to personally judge you once you leave at all. At most they’ll do exactly what fposte said, “Well, they’re a great candidate but I think [other candidate] is a better fit for what we need.”

      I was right there with you until last week, had been job searching for six months. You can do it! Practice some interview questions if you think you could polish them up, ask the interviewer you knew personally for some feedback, and take care of yourself. It’s rough out there, but I believe in you!

    6. The Kat*

      Good question. I’m in the same situation as you. I have a solid resume and have gone to many interviews. I too wonder why I’m not a “good fit”. However, a few interviewers have told my recruiters that I don’t have enough experience in front of clients, so essentially they don’t think the experience I’ve gained over the years is enough for the job. I’m scratching my head at that, because I do have enough time in front of clients, and if that assessment were true, I can do nothing about that. I don’t think I’ve embarrassed myself in front of the interviewers, I do actually wonder what they discuss about my interview when they meet after to discuss, but all that’s been passed on to me by recruiters is what I’ve said above and another recruiter was told that I wasn’t a “cultural fit” (Hm.)

    7. International Holding, Unlimited*

      I’ve interviewed quite a few people for an entry-level position that I used to manage. After you leave, they’re may be talking about how/whether you’re a fit, or things that worried/excited them about your answers in the interview. Unless they are incredibly crappy people, they aren’t making fun of you (if they are, trust me, you don’t want to work there).

      Consider asking around your friends to see if anybody hires, or maybe has a parent/older friend who’s done hiring. Have them mock-interview you for one of the open positions you’ve applied for and give you feedback.

      There may also be interview prep available through your local government or community colleges.

      Allison has posted a ton of interview advice, but I think the most important is to remember that it’s a conversation. They aren’t trying to humiliate you, they’re trying to figure out if you will fill their business need. And you should be trying to figure out if they’ll fill your needs – in terms of hours, wage, culture, duties, etc.

      Prepare anecdotes for some of the really common questions or situations (how have you succeeded? A time you struggled with something? What did you do? What kind of environment do you like working in?) and practice them with a friend (ideally, one of your interviewing friends). An interviewer’s take on your anecdote is going to be different from yours, and it’s really good to get that perspective.

    8. MC*

      Ouch! My best friend has experienced the same thing and has had similar feelings. :(

      I can’t vouch for your interviewers, but I can tell you about what happened when I was on a job hiring committee.
      During the entire hiring process, nothing was mentioned about how awful or stupid any of the candidates were.
      For instance, we phone interviewed someone whose job experiences did not match the role. The other members talked about how nice the person was, actually.
      Also, after the final in-person round, we sat down and wrote a list of pros and cons for each of our strongest candidates. The pros and cons were all related to skills needed on the job and nothing against anyone as a person.

      I hope things look up for you soon, and I will be keeping you in my thoughts. :)

  34. Justme, The OG*

    I got an email late afternoon on Wednesday asking if I was available for an interview “Friday or early next week.” I didn’t apply immediately because I was out with my kid, but I responded early Thursday (like right after I got into the office to check my calendar) that Friday was not a good day but next week was open. No response yet. I know stuff happened, but what if I had said that Friday would work?

    1. chizuk*

      You probably know this, but I just want to be the encouraging voice that says: you’re overthinking this ;)

      It’s not even noon on Friday on the east coast, so it’s really not been that long. Plus, this is the Friday of a long weekend for some people (my google calendar says Monday is a “regional holiday” but I do have off for it) and so lots of people might be taking off. And even if not, scheduling interviews can take some finagling of people’s calendars.

      And even if they do never get back to you, you will never know if clearing your calendar for Friday would have made them get back to you or not. You can’t know. But your life is your life and not being able to do a job interview on two day’s notice is totally a normal thing. If they hold it against you, that’s not good. If they find another candidate they like better on Friday… well, if they were gonna interview them on Friday, they were already going to see them.

      So, it’s out of your hands, it’s in theirs, either they get back to you or they don’t. Either way, I hope you can put it out of your head and have a good weekend :)

      1. Justme, The OG*

        They’re local, as in walking distance to their office from my current office. So no time zone issues. But I do need to make like Elsa and let it go.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      They are probably looking for times next week that work — no biggie. I would absolutely expect this kind of delay.

    3. LizB*

      When I was a swamped hiring manager, if I saw your email come in I’d think “okay, good, I’ll put that aside until I have time to suggest some dates next week” and then just try to get back to you by the end of Friday. If you had said Friday would work, I would have prioritized differently.

  35. Amber Rose*

    My boss keeps thanking me for being… normal? And I don’t really know how to react every time.

    It started with “thank you for not stealing from the company” which I understand was a little sarcasm in the wake of that one employee who was arrested for stealing like, a half a million dollars.

    But then it became “thank you for not snooping around on the server and complaining about what you find.”
    And “thank you for just coming to work and doing your job.”
    And then just the other day “thank you for not hating me or treating me differently.”

    I get that basically she’s just relieved that she doesn’t have to micromanage my life because the office drama has just been unending and relentless for like a year. But I really don’t know how to react or respond to being thanked for being what I can only think of as a normal, functioning adult. “You’re welcome” feels like the most ridiculous response.

    At this point, I guess I’m the boss’s favorite. It’s a more uncomfortable position than I realized particularly since I am NOT a rockstar employee and don’t really feel like I deserve the perks of this pedestal. I’m just low impact and drama free.

    1. Senor Montoya*

      Your boss is not just praising you; she’s mostly complaining to you about your co-workers and putting a thin veneer of praise on it because she knows she shouldn’t be bad-mouthing employees to another employee.

      This is not good for you — you are not getting praised for your actual work, and dollars to donuts your coworkers will hear her doing it if they haven’t already and they may take it out on you.

      Can you say to your manager: “I feel really uncomfortable when you say things like “quote” — I get that you’re just joking around, but it feels wierd to me.”

      1. Jedi Squirrel*

        +1.

        The boss sounds a little emotionally insecure right now, which she is transferring down to Amber Rose.

        The best bet is to be straightforward and tell her it makes you uncomfortable.

        Of course, I would be snarky and say “No problem. Just let me know when embezzlement is okay again. I’m planning a vacation in Tahiti.”

      2. Amber Rose*

        She’s only really done it when I come in super early and the office is empty.

        And it’s sort of like, half complaining half thanks? Like, the last one was followed up with “I really rely on you a lot, thanks for taking on so much and getting things done.”

        That kind of sincere thanks I also don’t really know how to deal with, since again it’s just really related to what I consider doing my job like a normal person.

    3. Campfire Raccoon*

      These little comments are just boss’s way of venting after dealing with whatever crap your coworkers are throwing at boss.

      Thank you for listening and being a passably adequate human being ;)

    4. LKW*

      Agreed, your boss is just venting and thanking you for being relatively ethical and minimizing the amount of time she has to spend dealing with crises.

      You can always respond back with “No prob! And thank you for not asking me to get tested to see if I’m a potential liver donor for your brother.”

          1. Amber Rose*

            Well, yes. I can tell it (the saga is already in three or four Friday threads actually), but I lied, it’s not that funny.

            Basically, R&D were planning on having this guy run some experiments. Out of all the possible safe chemicals they could have brought in to do this, they brought in the one that is most closely related to mustard gas. I (with the advice of everyone here) did some research, contacted some labs, put together a summary of my findings, and took them all to my boss. Some pointed conversations took place, and more importantly, the tests did not take place. I couldn’t come up with a single scenario where dude would not have died trying. The literature I read on this stuff will haunt me forever.

            The funny-but-not-really end of the story is that we’re stuck with the chemical because it’s so dangerous nobody will take it. It’s in a cupboard. :/

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              I was wondering about that recently…. you might think to mention “the haz mat cabinet” to the Fire Marshall at the next drill. Ask how to get it identified. Tou might save a first-responder’s life, too.

    6. miss_chevious*

      Do not underestimate the value of “low impact and drama free.” There have been times in the past when I would have killed for “low impact and drama free.” :)

    7. Orange You Glad*

      I’ve had good results with simply asking, “I’m not sure how to respond to that?”

      Or (if you want to discuss the overall pattern the next time she thanks you for doing your job), “I’ve noticed you thank me a lot for doing my job in what I consider a normal ethical way. I’m not sure how to respond when you thank me like that; is there a particular response you are looking for?”

      And then she will either A.) cut the pattern out because she feels awkward or B.) tell you that “you’re welcome” is fine!

      Then in the future you know what scripted response to give and it becomes a “my boss has this quirk and all I have to reply is “you’re welcome”.”

  36. camanae*

    How do I manage people who don’t report to me, whose work is largely within my department, and my boss will undermine any instructions I give if he disagrees?

    There’s two people whose work is mostly or entirely related to my department, but I don’t supervise them. Think, I’m Director of Marketing and they are writers and graphic designers. Not being their direct supervisor has made it pretty much impossible to manage work because I set deadlines and give instructions, but then they’ll both decide to do other things or something else comes up that their supervisor/my boss tells them to do, and they drop what I asked them to do.

    For context, my boss and I had a conflict regarding how we make decisions in our office, and that still hasn’t resolved, so he has decided to not let me supervise while this is ongoing. He didn’t tell me that, but he told someone else who told me. He is conflict avoidant. This means that if I try to go to him about this, he won’t do anything or will further punish me. But he’s the one creating the situation. These positions were created to be supervised by me, but now he will discuss things through the people under me, who then have to relay what he said to me. I get no input. And to be clear, I don’t have a problem with him making a decision I disagree with. I just wanted him to talk to me about it directly instead of agreeing with me one minute and literally turning around and telling someone else something different the next, and I ideally wanted him to involve me in the decision since I have the expertise.

    Now he is hiring someone who would work directly with me but who I still don’t know if I’ll supervise (I asked, he said he is still determining). Think Marketing Associate, and there’s no one else in the marketing department. The new person is starting next week, and I’m worried it’s going to be like the other people who I struggle to supervise because they’re getting different instructions from others. But that this time, it’ll be worse because whether they report to me or not, I still have to supervise all of their work since it is coming from my department. How do I handle this?

    1. chizuk*

      How do I manage people who don’t report to me

      Short answer: you don’t.

      Longer answer: your boss is the problem. If your boss won’t change, nothing about the situation will change. I’d say keep your boss aware of all the difficulties and problems in your work caused by the other people and if your boss won’t manage them to get them to do the work, assume your boss is totally fine with the difficulties and problems. And if the boss pushes it back on you, push it right back and ask what he recommends you do.

      1. LKW*

        Absolutely the case. One thing you can try is instead of giving them work, you could try asking them if they can complete the work and complete it on time. That way you can either pull up the “agreement” – “I asked if you could take care of this and meet this deadline and you agreed” or you have a gap that you can ask your boss. “Hey, I’m trying to confirm that tweedle dee and tweedle dum can support this project but they haven’t responded to my requests. Without their help the deadline will be missed. Can you help me arrange for their help?” That way you didn’t make a demand, you asked for support and it’s easier for your conflict avoidant boss to appeal to the “collaboration” side of the argument.

        But yeah – the problem is your boss.

        1. camanae*

          I have been keeping them updated on changes to timelines because of delays from others, but it has led to the accusation that I am inflexible. It’s really a lose-lose situation for me, and I can’t help but feel like it is intentional because he doesn’t want to/can’t fire me so is trying to make me miserable to quit.

    2. WellRed*

      Has your boss always disliked you or is this new? There’s no solving this one. Think about it, he wants to hire a marketing associate, without input from the marketing manager, and may not let you supervise that person. Dust off your resume.

      1. camanae*

        It’s new, and I am actively searching. But during the 2-6 months that I have to put up with this without telling them I’m searching so they don’t push me out, I don’t know what to do.

    3. CM*

      Your boss sounds like my old boss, and I’m sorry. In my case, it ended with constructive dismissal.

      I think the best thing you can do is clarify what your responsibilities are and get it in writing, and then push back, in writing, if either the job is no longer what you agreed to when you took it (like, if it’s no longer a supervisory position), or you’re being undermined in your ability to meet your responsibilities (you’re responsible for getting project X done on time, but your boss keeps bumping project X without telling you).

      If you end up in a constructive dismissal lawsuit, it’s important to be able to show that your boss changed the terms of employment and that you didn’t accept the change. Getting demoted from a supervisory to non-supervisory position is usually one of the easier cases to prove.

      1. Dot*

        Is this a new style of management—unclear guidelines around supervision, changing responsibilities, and refusing to put anything in writing? Because both my sister and I dealt with this in our most recent jobs, and there was no good outcome. Seems to be new trend in creative/marketing circles. Except my situation was that I was a part time, remote contractor (by preference) and somehow everyone expected me to solve enormous process issues, deal with vendors, and create senior level work. When I would tell people I didn’t have the ability, training, or authority to do what they were asking (much less the salary to go with it) they would ARGUE WITH ME. I’m talking about people from other departments and sometimes outside companies.

    4. Arts Akimbo*

      You handle this by job searching immediately. From the situation you’ve presented, it sounds like your boss has it in for you and isn’t going to change.

  37. Aggretsuko*

    My boss quit on Monday to get another job. I’m happy for her, I know she’s been looking for a long time and they won’t promote her, so…Same reason my last boss left too. They claim they will hire someone else by Thanksgiving, but I would guess it’d be more winter 2020 around these parts since they usually have some HR issue in hiring, which is going on with all the other open jobs. Oy.

    The meeting with the BigBoss (who is now a finalist for another job) turned into a ranting session about how everybody is so overloaded and we’re now down three people out of eight and we never have enough staff to answer phones. I’m so tired of it all.

    1. Word from the not so Wise*

      You should leave as well and let everyone know. It might cheer them up – not!

      I’m being a bit grumpish the morn. Don’t listen to me, no really, dont. Listen to your inner spirit and do what is right for you!

  38. Frustrated Anonymous Librarian*

    When you have a job where you do something you don’t want to do over and over again, day after day, and you can’t easily change your situation, what are your coping techniques?

    The techniques I’m using now: I remind myself that I’m lucky to have a job with great benefits when so many of the people I try to help (and other people everywhere) don’t, that I have great things in my life outside of work and I can focus on those things, and I do my best to look at work as an eight-hour-a-day anthropology experiment and forget about work for the other sixteen. I also remind myself that my situation is hardly unique — bus drivers drive the same route every day, teachers can teach the same material every year for 30+ years, etc. etc. and that I really have no basis for a complaint; this is just life.

    But I’m ashamed to say that these things are become less and less effective. Help?

    (Because of some unique circumstances, I can’t transfer to a different position — I *could* apply for a different job when one came up, but there’s currently a hiring freeze where I work — and it would be an enormous pay cut that I can’t afford if I took a different job in my field, so let’s make the assumption that I’m stuck in this job for the foreseeable future.)

    1. voyager1*

      I have been in this situation. I tried to keep busy at work with the actual work. Go out of my way to be positive with my coworkers and lastly really focus on my hobbies and me time.

      But it is hard and it isn’t perfect.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      I think it is also fine to recognize that you wish you had a job that you found more fulfilling or whatever. Like I’m not saying you should dwell on that forever, and reframing the situation is good, but not to the point where you are pretending something that isn’t really true. Like it’s fine to say to yourself instead of “other people have worse jobs” something like “I don’t really like my job and that kind of sucks. But keeping it is the best course right now because benefits X, Y, Z”. But there is nothing wrong with wishing something was different and just accepting that the situation isn’t ideal

      1. Filosofickle*

        I agree with this. Trying to convince myself to be happy / lucky about something I’m unhappy with does not work. It backfires. Then the shame spiral sets in.

        What helps me:
        Being realistic — this isn’t great, but it’s what I have and all I can do is make the best of it.
        Remembering it’s only for now. Everything in life is temporary. (H/T to Avenue Q!)
        Creating ways to make the job work for me — is there any way this can benefit you more? Anything at all?
        Ideating exit strategies and laying track to get out (networking, visibility, references, portfolio, classes)

        1. The Original K.*

          Yeah, I tried the “you should be glad you have a job” thing in a job in which I was miserable (it was a bad cultural fit), and it just made me more miserable, and sent me into a spiral in which I thought I didn’t deserve to be happy – I’m still trying to work my way out of that spiral. I definitely recommend “feeling your feelings” in situations like this.

          What helped me was really cultivating my hobbies – like, OK, I hate this job, but it pays me well enough that I can take a cooking class, so I’m going to do that. At the time, my best friend lived a couple of hours from a satellite office, so if there was a need to be in that office, I would volunteer for it and tack on a couple of days to visit her. I tried to put the “work to live” trope into action.

    3. OtterB*

      Is the thing you have to do over and over somehow amenable to gamifying it? So, challenge yourself about how you do it, how quickly you do it, something like that?

      Be sure your life outside of work includes something satisfying, I’d say by preference creative/artistic. Then you can think of the job as supporting your creative work. Lots of people have day jobs to support their art/music/writing. As long as the job isn’t in and of itself soul-sucking, you can live with it.

    4. Aggretsuko*

      I do the same as you: “I’m just fortunate to be employed” and try to do things outside of work. And remind myself that the more fatigued I get, that I can’t get another job.

    5. Princesa Zelda*

      If it’s something menial, you can mentally check out while you do it. When I worked at a grocery store, I couldn’t tell you 80% of what I did on any given day because I spent the whole time, like, thinking about the role of the government in the MCU or memorizing the soundtrack of Moana; Mike Duncan spent his entire time working at a deli counter basically writing the first draft of The History Of Rome in his head.

    6. Anono-me*

      A long time ago somebody told me that “If you’re lucky, you’ll have a job that you love. And if you’re really lucky, you’ll have a job that lets you take care of the people you love.”. All of this is very true. But when the job that lets you take care of the people that you love is a mess; It’s still a hard way to spend eight hours a day.

      Is there a way you can push for some cross training? And maybe trading off with a co-worker one day a week forever ‘just to keep your skill-sets fresh’?

      It sounds like maybe you work in one of the ‘helping professions’. Could this possibly be a caretaker burnout situation to some degree? If so, there are specific therapies available that might be helpful. Your professional groups should have good resources that are industry specific.

      It might also be helpful to find something outside of work that nurtures your need to be creative and non regimented. Maybe something like painting or sculpture or volunteering at a nature garden.

      Good luck.

  39. Annabelle*

    Does anyone have any tips for how to motivate yourself to do work you really dislike?

    Backstory: I’m in teapot factory design, but for the past couple of months I’ve been doing the drainage aspect of the factory design which I hate. With a passion. I started communicating this politely at work that I was happy to take it over for this project, but would prefer to not do this for future factories. What has happened is that every project has such a quick turnaround that I’m the only one able to do this design, to the point that I’m the go-to factory drainage person. I’ve talked with my supervisor and they’ve said it should last for a couple of more months before I’m able to get out of this.

    If that doesn’t happen, then I’ll look at leaving and exploring other options. In the meantime, how can I motivate myself to do a task that is my least favorite aspect of design?

    1. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      Depending on how long the task will take, I either get it done first thing in the morning or block off the first hour or two of my day to work on it. I tend to procrastinate on doing things I dislike, and then I end up stressed and overwhelmed once the deadline approaches. Once it’s out of my way I feel physically lighter and can focus on the parts of my job that I actually like.

    2. AnonEMoose*

      I agree that doing it and getting it out of the way is probably the way to go. That way at least you just have experience the loathing of doing the task, rather than the anticipatory loathing of having to do it, too.

      I feel your pain, to some extent. Earlier this year, I was stuck doing entry-level work for 6 months to help out another team. I felt like I was stuck dealing with the consequences of someone else’s bad decisions (the former supervisor of said team, who failed to ensure that they had adequate staffing). And I was NOT HAPPY. Because I felt like, every time someone was unable to get one of these tasks done, it would land in my lap.

      I don’t mind helping, I do mind being taken advantage of, and this was definitely in the latter category (this is most definitely not the only time this has happened). Fortunately for me, my direct boss is now in charge of that team, they have staffing, and Boss has told me directly “I don’t want you doing entry level work any more.”

      I hope it works out for you, OP. Besides just getting it out of the way, maybe look at rewarding yourself in some small way for getting it done? And maybe really consider if, if this goes on past the “couple of months” your boss indicated, is this something you’d want to start a job search over? Not saying you should, maybe just consider. Because feeling “stuck” only makes the frustration worse, in my experience.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        I don’t mind helping, I do mind being taken advantage of, and this was definitely in the latter category

        I just talked about something like this above. I really don’t appreciate people trying to load off the work they don’t want to do themselves on me – it’s annoying; I have a job.

        1. AnonEMoose*

          This. I don’t mind helping out sometimes, but being the default back-up option when someone else can’t get their work done gets old very quickly and feels like a step back, career-wise.

    3. Combinatorialist*

      Is all of your job the thing you hate or is it a small piece of your job?

      If it is all of your job, since your supervisor is aware and hopefully somewhat sympathetic, I would ask if you could spend 20% of your time doing X you like and 80% doing the thing you hate. Try to carve out something you enjoy for some amount of time.

      If it is a small piece, then getting it done first thing can be helpful. But I find I can’t get it done as soon as it comes in because it disturbs my mental plan for the day. So, I generally do it as soon as I’m stuck on my other stuff.

      1. Annabelle*

        It’s all of my job at the moment. So it’s 100% of my time for the next 2-3 months. Maybe just starting as early in the morning and trying to leave as soon as I hit 8 hours a day is the way to go.

    4. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      It looks like you said this is 100% of your job for the next few months? Then, depending on how you can fit it in, how about grabbing one of the other people on your team for cross-training?

      You can make a good “win the lottery”/”hit by a bus” argument to your boss that there should never be a single point person. Spend the first month using 10%-25% of your time getting that second person up to speed on the basics, then gradually transferring stuff over, if you can. It’ll be a slow training, which you can use to supervise their work to make sure they are doing it properly. You can also start by training them on some of the aspects you hate the most so you have someone to share that part with.

      The training will give you the option of some relief from this task even if it goes on past a few months because you’ll be able to ramp your time down while the other person ramps up. That would be my motivation.

      Failing that, to just power through the stuff I’d schedule some breaks in around lunch and make sure I went out so my brain was totally free while I was out and hopefully a bit more refreshed when I got back. As a chronic procrastinator, though, I’d say start it first thing. Otherwise I find a billion other piddly things to do instead of the thing I hate and I’m stuck late finishing up.

  40. (Former) HR Expat*

    My coworker was terminated last week for performance. I found out that I would be taking her role in the inter (we’re peers) and t5 minutes later was on a call with her leadership team having them yell at me for everything that was wrong in her region. Now I’m expected to do my normal job plus her job and absorb her hours. I support the East coast and she supports the West, so I’m expected to be working from 8am to 8pm eastern every day. My company has a history of putting people in a position where they can’t possibly do everything they’re asked so that they can fire people “for performance.”

    I feel like they’re setting me up to fail because their restructuring project isn’t working out like they anticipated and they want to avoid paying severance. Not that I’d get that much, since I’ve only been here 7 months.

    1. DataGirl*

      Start looking for a new job. The same thing happened to my husband years ago, they kept letting people go and adding to his plate until he was doing the job of 4 different titles- then he got fired for not being able to keep up with everything. Also can you make it clear that you will not do 12 hour days and they need to come up with a different solution?

    2. Wise word*

      Danger danger ahead. Time to bail now, don’t wait. The company is on fire and you will get burned.

    3. WellRed*

      Where is your manager in all of this? Can you sit down with them to discuss the expectations, including what duties you will have to assume, what won’t get done, and what hours they want you to work because of course! they don’t expect you to work 8 to 8.

      1. (Former) HR Expat*

        Funny enough, I had this conversation with my manager. His response when I asked him about hours was “it’s only until we hire a replacement. The workload is manageable for those hours for a couple of months until we do. ” This is the same manager who refuses to give any feedback or performance reviews, routinely threatens peoples’ jobs, and believes that we should all do whatever he says because “it makes the company better.”

        I’d had it with this job after the first month, but I was unemployed for 5 months before I got it so I’ve been trying to stick it out as long as possible. But I’m at the end of my patience with it.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          months?!

          No, 12 hour days 5days/week is not sustainable for months. He totally sucks, but I feel ya on the ‘he’s what I have to work with.’

          Try to get resume’s out, but ask for a couple of things to help you get through:
          1) Normal hours on 2 days / week – 11 – 8 on Monday, 9 – 5 or 10 – 6 on Friday. Maybe he could handle coverage for two hours a week? I mean, there’s also the crazy talk of maybe you do a regular 10 – 7 w/ 1 hr lunch, let 7 – 8 go hang, and *he covers 9 – 10 every day*?
          2) A shorter timeline on the hire – you’ll work as had as possible in those hours, but it would really help you stay focused if he put the hiring as his top priority, and kept you up to date on progress (eg, posted, #x resumes, starting interviews).

          I held down my / my team lead’s roles for 4mo because my manager took on some work, he let me out of some other work, and they kept me informed of the search progress. I worked 45 – 60 hr weeks and took minimal vacations, but so did my boss.

        2. Flyleaf*

          The question you need to ask your manager is “Which half of job A + job B do you not want me to do?” Your boss needs to prioritize your work, with approximately half of it prioritized so low that it doesn’t get done. If your boss won’t prioritize, you need to tell him that things will get done in the order that they come in, with last half not getting done. That’s your default. If he doesn’t like it, he will need to come up with a different prioritization.

          1. Loz*

            I do the same with my workload but I make it clear that in the absence of a clear priority evsluated by me or the boss, things get done in order of how much I want to do/enjoy them.
            I can generally pull this off as the stuff I dislike tends to be unimportant and just goes away if you leave it long enough!

          2. Lana Kane*

            This is good in an ideal situation, and the OP should absolutely have the “what should I prioritize conversation”, but they should also tread carefully because the answer could well be “you do it or else”. The manager doesn’t, really, have to come up with a plan because it looks like the MO is to burn people out and then fire them.

            OP, have a conversation about prioritization, but don’t be surprised if the answer is “it all has to get done, figure it out”. If that’s the answer then you have no other option but to start looking for another job ASAP.

        3. Gumby*

          When you were hired was there anything about expected hours? Because while 12 hour days might be manageable (I mean, you likely won’t actually die from it, though the lack of sleep and a commute could change that calculus), it is far from what you agreed on. I mean, that is 1.5 times the number of hours! I doubt they are paying you 1.5 x your salary. I suspect you are exempt because if TPTB were paying OT they wouldn’t blow off your concerns like this. Would you feel better about it if they did give you a huge bonus that would equate to half your salary?

          Also, if the hours are so manageable, why is your manager not covering them?

    5. Zephy*

      Welp, if it’s only been 7 months, updating your resume shouldn’t take very long. I think you’re right about what they’re trying to do.

    6. AnonEMoose*

      I think you’re right about what they’re trying to do, too. Brush up your resume, get the heck out, and don’t look back.

    7. Turtlewings*

      Yeah, get out ASAP. If you’re financially able to just quit now without having to find another job first, this is a good time to do so, because the stress you’re headed for is not going to be worth it (and is not going to leave you any time to job hunt!)

    8. Kathenus*

      Be proactive. Look at the workload from the two positions, figure out what is reasonable to complete by one person, and what you think the prioritization of what to do/not do should be. Then send this to your boss in writing. ‘Boss, here’s my plan to triage and prioritize the most critical tasks from my role/coworker’s role until we hire a replacement. If you’d prefer a different prioritization please let me know’. Don’t try to do both jobs, but also don’t wait until things start falling through the cracks to have this conversation. Borrow Alison’s technique of saying it matter of factly, of course I can’t do two full jobs, so here’s the plan of what is and isn’t going to be done until we fill the position. Good luck.

      1. Bex*

        Second all of this. And, I would strongly recommend constant documentation via email. If you have any in-person discussions, then send an email afterwards recapping to conversation. That could be extremely helpful if they do try to go the “fired for cause” route

  41. Lizzy May*

    How often is too often to be late to work because of transit issues? My city is rolling out new transit and it completely shut down 3 of the 5 mornings this week because of small issues. I was lucky to only be caught up in it once so far, but there doesn’t seem to be a good long-term solution in place yet and I know it’ll happen a few more times before people either abandon the system in large enough numbers to make it more reliable or until they actually come up with a fix. I’m doing what I can to avoid the worst of the crush by leaving earlier than before but that obviously didn’t solve the issue completely.

    1. Jamie*

      I would lay this out for your boss and let them know the situation and ask how they’d like you to handle it.

      They might be fine with you flexing your time a little around the issue.

    2. Colette*

      Hey, fellow citizen of Ottawa!

      I hope most businesses are being somewhat flexible – the multiple problems have been very well-documented. If it were a different situation (e.g. where you have to take one bus that is unreliable), I would expect less flexibility from a company.

      1. Lizzy May*

        Yep. My boss isn’t in Ottawa so I don’t know if he has a real handle on our current situation and I don’t have a true “butts in seats” job, but the common standard is 8am. I stayed late to make up for yesterday’s delays. I think it’s more the personal stress I feel when I know I’m late. And I don’t want to have to stay late too often, though if work needs to be done, obviously I would.

        1. Colette*

          I suggest laying it out for him – “the new trains have been unreliable. They’ve only affected my commute once, but I suspect the problems continue, and if they do, I’d like to X” – where X is “flex my hours” or “work through lunch to make up the time” or whatever else is reasonable in your case.

          I’m lucky that the trains have little impact on my commute – I work at one end of the line so yesterday I had to get through a crowd of people to get out of the station but that was it. But I definitely sympathize with those people whose week has been totally disrupted by predictable problems.

      2. Kowalski! Options!*

        Helloooo, other fellow citizens of Ottawa! Lizzy, are you a civil servant, or have any chance that you might be able to incorporate telework as a backup, in case things go crazy when the snow starts flying? I work in that building on the Quebec side that is having the…uh, facility issues…and for the most part, management has been great about letting people shift their schedules, work from other buildings, or just say “sod it” and telework to avoid the whole thing altogether.
        Personally, my solution has been to start carpooling in with co-workers. To get to my home base office, I’d have to take four different buses and trains, to cover a distance that’s under 8 km, as the crow flies. Luckily a couple of co-workers drive past my place in the mornings, and that’s been a godsend in avoiding 90% of transit-related hassles. And now I get to work in twenty minutes flat.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Whenever there are mass shutdowns or reworking of the transit system, we’re all aware of it. We always let just about anyone flex for it until they can figure out their workarounds! So for the first couple of weeks, it’ll take some time to figure out an alternative route if it’s even possible.

      We have one of those Forever Awful transit issues, so it’s expected that most people will be late at some point due to the traffic.

      In the end, after it’s not longer “new” that it’s happening, it’s expected that you figure it out and leave earlier if necessary but will every once in awhile [less than once a month] get stuck in traffic somewhere and arrive late.

    4. Alianora*

      My city isn’t rolling out new transit, but there are still tons of delays. Last week I got on one line, and somewhere in between my starting point and my destination they switched it to a different line without telling the passengers.

      I talked to my manager about it when I noticed it was becoming an issue. She agreed that I could have a flexible start/end time to accommodate transit issues, and if I would be in later than 10:00 I should let her know (I usually arrive around 9). Your office may not be as flexible, but making your manager aware of the issue can only be a good thing.

      On the days that I have an early meeting, I drive. It’s not 100% reliable but it’s more consistent than public transit.

  42. Marion Q*

    Is the lack of regular 1:1 meeting a yellow flag?

    I’m on my first job after university, so I don’t really know what’s normal and what’s not in the workplace yet.

    It’s been seven months, and so far I’ve only had one 1:1 meeting, and that’s because I made a rather serious mistake during training. I’ve observed and talk to my coworkers, and they never have 1:1 meeting with our manager either. We’re in an open plan office, so it’s rather obvious if people are having meetings. Other teams we sit with never seem to have 1:1 either.

    For more context: I’m an llama groomer, it’s an entry-level position. My job consists of 40% llama grooming, 30% client relation, and 30% admin tasks. Glassdoor reviews mention that promotion is almost non-existent, and my observation so far confirmed this. My team, the llama groomer, is supposed to have monthly meeting as a team, but this doesn’t always happen.

    Is this normal for the position, considering the factors above?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      How do you communicate with your manager? How do you know what you’re supposed to be working on? Does your manager tell you things that you are doing well or things you should be doing better? In most office jobs, only one meeting with a manger in seven months would likely be a sign of bad management.

      1. LKW*

        Yeah – this isn’t abnormal… if your manager isn’t a good manager. I have weekly check in’s with my team and talk to my manager at least once a week or more depending on how things are going and I need his help to manage project issues.

      2. Marion Q*

        Basically, at the start of the llama grooming season we are given a spreadsheet with the list of which llamas are our responsibility. The sheet also contains the list of tasks to be done and we’re supposed to report all the grooming activities there. Anything else, the manager will just tell us through Slack.

        Another thing I’ve noticed is that the manager and also my coworkers seem to dislike using private messaging. Almost everything is communicated through the group channel, so sometimes I miss things because I don’t realise the message is also for me. But it’s highly possible it’s just my personal pet peeve.

        I do realise the management here is very hands-off. But I don’t know where being hands-off ends and where bad management begins.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          I agree with LKW – it can be normal AND a sign of bad management. Ultimately, not having personal feedback is going to limit your ability to grow professionally, and also is generally a sign that your manager is not handling smaller issues directly.

    2. Quill*

      I have informal 1:1’s or project specific ones with my current boss at least once a week, and one of the two other people I support every other week.

        1. CatCat*

          I’m in law, but even before that, no job I had (market research, and administrative work) had regular 1:1s.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        Yeah, I’ve only had two jobs with regular 1:1s, and both times it was because my boss worked far enough away that we didn’t see each other very often during the course of the week (one boss’s office was on the other side of the building from me and it was mostly a “sit at your desk and do the things” type of job so our paths didn’t cross, the other boss worked about 7 miles away in a different building).

        Mostly, the nature of my work means I see and talk with my managers several times a week, so they know what I’m up to and I’m able to get advice as needed.

        I’d say it’s not necessarily a bad thing that you don’t have a standing meeting, but if you feel like more regular communication would be helpful to you, you can certainly ask about setting up a standing meeting.

      3. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        Same. Managers would just discuss problems/issues/whatever as they arose and talked in further detail about performance during the mid-year and annual reviews. In my current position, I have weekly 1:1’s, but I suspect that’s largely because I’m fully remote from my team and because I’m usually being dragged into initiatives my manager knows little to nothing about, so he likes to touch base to see what I’m working on and if he can be of any assistance. If I were based out of the company’s headquarters, I doubt he’d bother, lol.

    4. Aggretsuko*

      Depends on how swamped your office is. I had a manager who did weekly one on ones, but my most recent one had to drop them because we were just so hugely swamped and busy. It’s also a LOT larger team (8 rather than 3).

    5. juliebulie*

      For the first 25 years of my career, I didn’t have a 1:1. I started having a 1:1 six years ago, with my current employer.

      Honestly, there were some managers I wouldn’t have wanted to have a regularly scheduled 1:1 with. But having them makes me a better and happier employee… but that’s also because I have a good boss to begin with.

  44. AnonOne*

    I have a useless liberal arts degree, and I’ve been working retail and waiting tables. I’d like to get any kind of “starter” office job. I have the usual college student computer skills. If I wanted to do online tutorials or certifications, what additional skills would most offices generically want me to have?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I wold actually suggest connecting with a temp agency to get some office-ey job experience. For most general positions, employers don’t care what kind of degree you have, just that you put in the time and dedication to get one. So don’t let the liberal arts degree get you down.
      Adding more certs and training won’t boost the resume much, but having some office experience will. And you will get exposed to different offices, work, and careers and that will expose you to career choices.

      1. Witchy Human*

        All good ideas! I would also look at ways to interpret the experience you have in ways that highlight its more administrative aspects on your resume. Answering phones, running day-end reports, scheduling software, any kind of shift-supervisor responsibility, etc.

      2. AnonEMoose*

        This was awhile ago, but I did quite a bit of temping back in the day. I ended up with my current job that way. It’s a great way to gain experience, learn about different office cultures and norms, and figure out what kinds of positions work and don’t work for you. Plus you meet a lot of people who may be good contacts in the future.

      3. Washi*

        Agreed. If you’re not getting interviews, I would guess that the problem is either lack of office experience or maybe your cover letter/resume, not that you need an online certification. If you have absolutely no office experience, that’s probably it, and temp jobs are a great suggestion!

      4. YetAnotherUsername*

        I also recommend temp agencies. If you can use ms word reasonably well they will take you.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      In all honesty, a lot of “starter” office jobs are customer service, so your retail and serving are gonna be more helpful than a generalized cert. I’m not sure what the “usual” college student computer skills would be these days (I say, like an old person — I graduated in this century, I swear!) but an Excel course might be helpful if your college career didn’t involve much in the way of spreadsheets, because IME an excel skills test is very likely.

      When I made the jump from retail to office-based customer service, I had a couple stories about the retail work that helped me position myself in customer service terms — things like the time a client threw a heavy item at me and burst into tears, and I turned the situation around into making a sale. People skills are valuable as heck.

      1. Deb Morgan*

        This exactly! When we hire for entry-level jobs at my office, we look for customer service experience specifically.

    3. 867-5309*

      It’s hard to provide generalities on what additional skills an office would want you to have… Do you want to be a receptionist? Customer service? Sales? Marketing?

    4. Quill*

      Semi advanced Excel (think pivot tables, VBA, macros) would probably be a big one in terms of online learning. But doing any sort of temp in an office would help a lot more.

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I would reframe how you think about your degree – I promise you, liberal arts degrees aren’t useless! I’m sure you gained valuable skills like communication, problem solving, leadership, research, etc. Your work in retail/service has brought you great skills in customer service, communication, thinking on your feet, etc. Take a look at Alison’s advice on how to write a cover letter about transferable skills and make sure you tailor your application materials to match what the job is looking for. Good luck!

      1. Filosofickle*

        Agreed! Not useless! I have worked with lots of people with degrees like philosophy, sociology, psychology, history & art who are highly paid professionals.

      2. Fikly*

        Yes, do not discount the ability to read and write. That is important in almost any job, and a strength of most liberal arts degrees.

    6. littlelizard*

      If you can write/edit, “content” is a broad field that took me in with my not-even-liberal-arts degree and mostly retail experience. You’ll need to have writing samples to show people you’re generally literate.

    7. Aggretsuko*

      In my experience, all the jobs want you to be able to do (a) budget and payroll, (b) event planning, (c) travel arrangements, (d) phone and counter service. All at once. I am not kidding. So those are the skills “in demand” right now.

    8. Schnoodle HR*

      Honestly, look at your local tech school. Some have certificates for payroll (a payroll person is an employed person!), HR (though it would be entry level), office administration, marketing, etc.

      None are really diplomas, but would give you some background in it and show you’re interested in growing into that field.

      And as others said, connect with temp agencies. I’ve always used a temp agency to find a receptionist or office assistant.

  45. Negotiating a Signing Bonus?*

    Has anyone successfully negotiated a signing bonus? If so, how did you bring it up? I can’t think of an argument that would benefit the company or give them a reason to want to give a bonus.

    My current job offered a signing bonus without prompting, but the job is terrible and nothing like the description. The longer I stay here, the less marketable I become and my skills are getting rusty. However, leaving means that I’ll have to pay back my substantial signing bonus. (I had thought it was a 6month period but recently realized it 12month clawback period). I am interviewing for a niche job that I am very well suited for and have a decent chance of getting, so I’m trying to figure out how to bring up a bonus if I get an offer. The industry the new job is in typically pays large annual bonuses, but joining at this point in the year would not make me eligible for a bonus, so I feel like having a signing bonus would make up for giving up my old signing bonus + annual bonus, but I doubt a corporation would see it that way.

    1. M. Albertine*

      I did, but it was because I already had some training/certification that the company would normally have paid for someone in my position. I was able to translate the savings in time, training and certification fees to a signing bonus.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      During the salary negotiation, when they say, ‘we want to pay you X’, you say, ‘I was looking for (X+Y), but I would accept X + a Y signing bonus’ (for X = reasonable market rate that you would accept)

      eg: We want to pay you 50k
      I was looking for 55K, but I would accept 50K + a 5K signing bonus.

    3. Turtlewings*

      You may be able to at least get them to cover the signing bonus you’re having to pay back if you present that as an obstacle to you accepting the job.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        I was going to say this. You may not have any luck getting a signing bonus, but if they want you bad enough and you tell them you’ll have to pay back your previous signing bonus, they may pay it back for you (but ask).

    4. Comp Expert*

      I’m not in the US, but I look after compensation for my company. We will generally pay a sign-on bonus for good talent if they can show that they are ‘losing’ something by joining us. This usually means – missing out on an annual bonus due to timing, having to pay back something to the company (e.g. sign-on bonus, tuition funding). This sign-on bonus will usually come with a claw back period.

  46. Ell*

    I just started a new job and I’m loving it so far, but there’s a hiccup. I share an office (non profit so no option here) with someone who constantly, loudly chews ice. All. Day.

    We sit three feet apart so even headphones don’t really drown out the noise. I don’t want to complain since I’m so new but it’s driving me crazy. Is this annoyance reasonable? What should I do?

    1. Me*

      Try the approach of it’s you not them favor.

      “Hey Jane, I have this quirk where the sound of chewing ice is like nails on chalkboard for me. I really struggle to concentrate. I tried headphones but it’s not working. Can you do me a favor and not chew ice when I’m in the office? I really appreciate it.”

      Most people will go oh sure n.p. They might forget a time or two, but it really shouldn’t be a big deal. Most people really are nice.

    3. What's with Today, today?*

      I’m an ice eater when I’m in a Crohn’s flare, it’s a common pica. I can go through 20 or 30 pounds in a week (we buy bags of ice when I’m sick). It’s also not something that is easily controlled if it is, in fact, a pica. I would probably tell you it was casued by a medical condition, I’m under treatment and until everything resolves, there isn’t much I can do.

      1. Mikasa*

        I can forgive if you chew with your mouth closed and don’t smack all day like my coworkers do. Gives me the heebie jeebies. *shudders*

      2. Kuododi*

        Ice eating is also associated with anemia. For me it’s usually the first indicator my anemia is flaring up. Right now I am chewing ice as if there’s a pending world-wide shortage. Your feelings are quite reasonable. They are, after all your feelings. What you choose to do with your feelings that becomes the question of reasonably vs unreasonable. Best wishes

    4. What’s with Today, today?*

      I’m an ice eater when I’m in a Crohn’s flare, it’s a common pica. Mine is so bad that I can go through 20-30 pounds of ice a week (we buy 10 lb bags when I’m sick). I’m also incredibly miserable and can think about nothing but eating ice if I don’t have any to eat (thank God I’m not suffering from a paint or dirt pica). Be prepared for them to possibly tell you it’s caused by a medical condition.

  47. WellRed*

    I had planned to ask here today advice on what to say when asking for a salary increase (haven’t had one in eight years—I know). Do I need to give a figure (not asking for any merit increase, simply need a cost of living increase). How do I calculate what might be reasonable?
    However, we have just had a slight re-org. My job is still the same, but my manager has taken on additional duties and will assume an additiolanl title, so it stands to reason, down the intermediate road, more duties will shift to me (and I may see an opp to advocate for more responsibility. Hopefully).
    However, I’d hate to shoot myself in the foot by asking for a COLA increase when, down the road, I could make the case for a bigger increase for more duties and performing them well. I doubt if I got a raise now, I could ask for another in say, six months. Either way, we are not talking about a vast sum of money.
    Adding to my uncertainty: we were acquired earlier this year and while we are operating independently, they obviously have final say on things like this, and so far, have wanted to see us increase revenues (without investing in tech or humans). And I have no idea what their performance reviews/salaries/raise policies are, except they don’t seem to pay their employees anything to get excited about.

    1. fposte*

      I’d have a figure in my pocket. What would be market rate for your work in your area? Factor in the usual industry/profit track factor. I wouldn’t ask for COLA alone after 8 years.

      Then just raise the question with your manager. You’ll probably end up naming your figure, but see where she takes the question. It also sounds like you’re piling up reasons why you won’t get what you want, and maybe you won’t, but they don’t sound like reasons not to ask. If she says stuff like “Wow, we’ll need to check with [Acquisition Company] on that,” the answer to that is “Sounds good, thanks for checking,” not “Never mind.” It’s okay for her to do some work on this.

  48. D.W.*

    We found out this week that our department was not awarded a major grant that we have had for the last 10yrs, and unfortunately, it our primary funder. We had an org-wide meeting and were told layoffs are inevitable, but that our jobs are safe until the end of this year once our current grant award ends. Those who will be let go will find out today, so folks will have time to job hunt. Needless to say, the mood in the office is grey.

    1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Awww, that sucks. :( But at least it sounds like your org is handling it in the best way possible. I worked in media for a couple years and boy, have I gotten sick of hearing stories of those companies (like Splinter yesterday!) laying people off with day-of notice. Things change fast, but if you’re not equipped as an organization to do better than *that* by your employees, then you’re doing something wrong.

    2. De Minimis*

      I was in that same situation a couple of years ago. I know it’s rough. At least they are being transparent about what they’re doing and when, though I know that’s not much consolation.

      For me they ended up cutting me down to part-time about 9 months prior to my scheduled layoff date [I had several months notice of when this was happening] and I ended up leaving on my own as soon as I went down to part-time status. I was sad to leave, but felt like I wasn’t really valued that much if they thought they could cut my hours down that drastically and expect me to stick around.

    3. Ali G*

      That sucks. But also to me seems to indicate that the org isn’t well run. Even if you are not laid off today, I would be looking. I wouldn’t be confident that this place will exist a year from now.

      1. Filosofickle*

        I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Lots of organizations have a big client or donor and would have to scale back if they lost them. It’s not ideal, and orgs should strive to diversify their revenue streams so they are less vulnerable, but it’s not unusual. (Ad agencies, for example, used to be famous for this. Land a new account, staff up a team for it. Lose the client, lay off that team.)

        If they were over-relying on one funder or lost the funding because they were doing a lousy job, that could be proof of being poorly run. But grants can also get pulled simply due to the funder changing their priorities.

        1. Ali G*

          True, but questions I would be asking:
          Why didn’t we know priorities were going to change?
          Why weren’t we actively communicating current successes and cultivating next year’s grant?
          Why weren’t we seeking out other support?
          There’s too many things that are a part of managing your donor base that seemed to have been missed to me. If upper management didn’t have good answers to these questions, I’d be out.

        2. De Minimis*

          One big issue is that there aren’t really a huge number of funders that provide high-dollar multi-year operating grants outside of the federal government. That was what caused our issue, we were mainly reliant on large grants from a single federal agency, and when things changed at that agency, we didn’t get any further awards. We had about 40-45% of funding from other sources, as well as earlier grants that still had a couple of years to run, and I assume after my organization laid off around 50% of the staff they were able to subsist on that and hope that things change within the next few years to where they might have a better shot at federal grants again.

          I’ve come to the conclusion that this is pretty common in the nonprofit world, you have good times and lean periods. I’m fortunate now to have moved into the healthcare nonprofit sector which seems to be a little better since we get a lot of funding from Medicaid and Medicare, and the grants are just one piece of the puzzle, though still a fairly large one.

  49. Unsubscribe*

    I’ve been unemployed for two years, which I know that makes me “the bottom of the barrel” in terms of candidates for any job I apply to. My problem is I’m still being asked to do phone screenings and go to interviews, and I think no one is actually serious about considering me—I’m just being used to help meet quotas for however many candidates they need to do phone screenings or interviews with. (If they need a “filler” candidate, then the person who is obviously desperate for a job and will agree to do screenings or interviews on short notice is perfect for that. An added bonus is I can’t argue with getting rejected because anyone who hasn’t been unemployed for two years is obviously a better candidate than me.)

    The rare rejection email I get sometimes mentions an internal candidate was hired, so one thing I could ask is if any internal candidates are being considered. Is there anything else I can ask to see if a company is actually considering me for a job or if I’m just being used as a filler candidate? I’m tired of doing phone screenings and interviews and can’t imagine agreeing to do them anymore unless I know a company has a valid reason for wanting to talk to me.

    1. Colette*

      I really don’t think they’re asking to talk with you just for formality – I would assume they always have a valid reason for wanting to talk to me.

      And I worry that your belief that they are stringing you along (and the way the job search has obviously hurt your self-image) is hurting you in your job hunt.

      Do you have someone who could do a practice interview with you? Are you using Alison’s interview prep guide?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s very rare to do anything just to “fill a quota”, that’s really not a common thing at all! They are interested in you but sadly yes, the ones with current experience are most likely squeaking you out =(

      I also have to wonder if your state of mind is coming into play here because you’re already resigned to thinking that you’re not going to get the job. So it can really vibe off the interviewer if you’re kind of “phoning it in”, that is probably really what’s happening here. It’s hard and I’m sorry you’re in this situation. Are you in a position you could think about doing some temp work to get current work experience?

      1. HR Stoolie*

        Just want to give thumbs-up in full agreement with what “The Man,…” just posted.
        In private industry “quotas” of any sort are rarely practiced.

    3. 867-5309*

      If you aren’t already, consider volunteering at nonprofit doing work similar to your field or else temp’ing. That will help build your confidence and keep your skills sharp, while showing activity on your resume.

    4. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I spent three years in a position where hiring was one of my key responsibilities, and I never interviewed anybody I didn’t actually want to consider for the job. I assume there are some companies out there who have set minimums for how many people they interview, or who hold interviews as a smoke screen so they can hire the person they already know they want, but I’ve known a lot of people who hire and it’s not in any way the norm.

      I feel like you’ve lost a lot of confidence during your long job search, and it’s making you second guess yourself when you get called for interviews. If that lack of confidence is bleeding through into your answers to the interview questions it may be giving your interviewers a lackluster impression of you, which is the exact opposite of what you want. So try and remind yourself that the vast majority of hiring managers are only interviewing the people they want to interview. They called you there because they want you there. They want you to be the person who solves the problem of their vacant position. Your long stretch of unemployment is not because you are somehow deficient. It’s just a stretch of bad luck, which could happen to anybody.

    5. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Sounds like the 2 years of job hunting might be clouding your vision. Why do you think you’re just filling a quota. I have never interviewed someone just for the sake of it. Never. If I interviewed them, it was because it’s someone I would consider hiring. Are you able to do things outside of job hunting to give yourself some perspective? You are not being interviewed to meet a quota.

  50. Alice*

    After stating that she won’t replace me, my manager is backpedalling and interviewing candidates. However she’s doing it behind my back. I only know because I overheard a conversation this morning. When I gave my notice I had offered to help her fill the position, as being the only person in my role I am in the best position to write the job posting and assess candidates. I’m baffled as to why she didn’t ask my help. I should probably have a conversation with my manager about all of this, but to be honest I’ve had enough of her weirdness. Since I told her I’m leaving I’ve been cut off from all meetings and internal communication, she’s told me off for trying to document processes, and overall she’s made it clear that I’m not valued here. I envy you people who can get away with giving 2 weeks notice, my 4 weeks are way too long.

    1. Buttons*

      That sucks, and it is clear why you are leaving. I know that you have a work ethic and want to leave having shown them you are a good employee and left everything to help the new person transition in, but she doesn’t want your help. She is making it perfectly clear, so do your job, and not one thing extra. Good luck!

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t think it’s unusual to not have the person leaving be involved in the hiring process. It sounds like she’s being rude about your leaving, though.

      1. Alice*

        I feel strongly that in this case I should be involved, because it’s a technical role requiring specific skills and she doesn’t really understand what I do. But, putting aside my wounded ego, I would understand if she told me she doesn’t want me involved. That sounds reasonable. However she told me she was NOT replacing me, then went out of her way to hide the fact that she was interviewing candidates… It’s weird more than rude, honestly. It’s not the behaviour I would expect from an adult, let alone from a manager.

        1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

          It’s not – it’s sneaky and underhanded (is she related to my Former Manager?!). That being said, you’re almost out of there – stop giving this person power over your emotions. If she makes a terrible hire, how does that affect you in any way? It doesn’t – you’ll be long gone. So just sit back and take comfort in knowing that you’ll soon be in a better place and she’ll likely end up exactly where she deserves.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      This is no longer your circus – you owe nothing to the monkeys. Just show up and get paid and put no effort into anything as your boss has made it clear she doesn’t want your assistance with any of it.

  51. Strawberry Fields*

    I posted about this previously- my coworker “Minerva” seemed wary of me from the start. She makes conversation, but will ignore what I say and pay attention to my other coworkers. She went out of her way to train the new male hires in the department, but seems cold and is very short with me.

    She’s twice my age,which doesn’t matter to me, but maybe it does to her? She’s also oddly possessive of our coworker “Fergus”. Fergus will talk with me one-on-one, but not so much when Minerva is around.

    I was laughing with Fergus and Minerva made a comment about how his “wife will get a complex.” We were just laughing about something that happened that was work related. Otherwise we barely talk and when we do, it’s about work.

    Ironically, Minerva will laugh with him and put her hand on his hand. She claims that she’s “just being an office mom”, but she’s definitely keen on him. (Minerva is married with grown kids and twice as old as Fergus.)

    I just don’t understand why it’s okay for her to socialize with him, but she makes snide remarks when I talk with him. I have to talk to Fergus about work stuff, since we work together on projects and reports. Nothing inappropriate is going on, so I don’t get it.

    I’ve been in situations like this before, but I never know what to do. Is there anything that I should be doing? Any thoughts? Any advice?

    1. WellRed*

      Because she’s possessive of Fergus and competitive with the other woman in the group. That’s why she’s l like this. As long as it’s not interfering in your work in any way, I’d try to roll my eyes and move on.

    2. LKW*

      Nope, you can’t do or say anything. The motivations behind her behavior, she might have always been “the prettiest” or the most popular or the only woman on the team or whatever. It doesn’t matter. Change nothing about your behavior with your co-workers. However, a well timed smirk with a glance in her direction when talking with Fergus or a glance at her hand touching with an eyebrow raise (if you can do a single eyebrow – that’s better) done on occasion will likely slightly unnerve her. Say nothing bad about her or to her. Do not gossip. Let her hoist herself on her own petard.

      1. Senor Montoya*

        Nah, I wouldn’t push her buttons in any way, that’s just mean and unnecessary. Unless she is your supervisor or the trainer and it feels to you like gender discrimination, or if it feels to you like she’s sexualizing office encounters, I wouldn’t do much.

        If she says something to *you* or about *you*, then yes, say something. Like, “Wow, that’s a weird thing to say!” or “Um, what? It’s ok for men and women to talk to each other, Minerva.”

        1. Alianora*

          Agreed. Why would you want to antagonize or unnerve your coworker? That’s just asking for drama.

          Also, you don’t want to put Fergus in the middle like it’s a tug-of-war, I feel like that would be extremely uncomfortable for him if he picked up on the smirks and eyebrow raises.

    3. LKW*

      Change nothing about your interactions with the team. Do not gossip about her or say anything bad about her. Never return snide with snide. However, if you want to unnerve her slightly: When talking to Fergus and she walks by and if you happen to give her a little once over and smirk… nothing wrong with that. Or if she puts her hand on Fergus’ and you happen to glance and raise an eyebrow while looking at said hand sandwich…

      Don’t do this consistently -just on occasion and it might throw her off balance a bit.

      1. SMH RN*

        Why on earth would anyone want to deliberately antagonize a coworker? No matter what they’re like it’s about what kind of person you are.

    4. CheeryO*

      You’re doing absolutely nothing wrong! Please try not to internalize any of this. Minerva is a crappy, insecure person and would almost definitely be acting the same way toward any other young female employee.

      Fergus should probably say something when she puts her hand on his; that’s really inappropriate, regardless of the genders and age disparity. That’s his call to make, though.

    5. Campfire Raccoon*

      You aren’t doing anything wrong. Minerva is a jerk.

      When she says things like “his wife will get a complex”, you could push back with, “What an odd thing to say.”

    6. Michelle*

      If she said something about his wife getting a complex to me, I would return it with “What do you think his wife would think about you touching him? You know, when you put your hand on his?” and then just let it hang there. If she says something about being an “office mom” I would say “My mom never holds a coworkers hand”.

      This is what I would do, but you may not be able to do so without her getting even nastier. I’ve had female coworkers say similar things because I get along with male coworkers quite well. I like a lot of things typically considered male- football, guns, knives, action movies, fishing,muscle cars,* etc. My father was a single father and I had a brother, so I raised around those kind of things. I don’t particularly like shopping, don’t care about shoes or purses and the only jewelry I wear is my wedding ring and, occasionally, a pair of earrings. If a female coworker is crushing on a male coworker, I don’t care. Crush on. I’m very happily married for 21 years and my husband is the only man I want to be with, so you can flirt with Fergus the whole, live long day and I do not care one iota. One thing I will not do is let someone get all snippy and rude to me because I have a conversation with a male coworker and we just happen to laugh during it.

      * I know there are many woman who enjoy football, guns, knives, action movies, fishing, muscle cars, etc, but most of the women who work in my office (and previous workplaces) don’t seem to care or know too much about them. I can talk to them about other things and I actually have several close female coworkers who don’t think I’m flirting when I talk to male coworkers.

    7. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      She sounds like an old-fashioned queen bee. I have one at my job. She’s cheerful and smiley to everyone else on the “team” and has been giving me the cold shoulder since I came on board. Snide remarks? All the time, even in staff meetings. She ignores me if I ask her questions. She’s the most territorial person I’ve ever worked with. There’s no Fergus per se, but she has favorites, including the boss, so she gets away with it. There’s nothing you can do about her. Just, if her behavior impacts your job (like withholding information you need by not answering your questions), document document document and cover your fanny.

      I don’t know if it’s me personally. She was great buds with my 2 predecessors. When I came on board, Boss told me they used to have hour-long gabfests and made it clear that she didn’t want to see this anymore. But Boss won’t confront QB even when QB goes off on her and refuses to carry out instructions. Sighhh….some people got it, and then there’s the rest of us.

  52. Krabby*

    My office is ergo friendly. We will purchase standing desks, exercise ball chairs, special keyboards, etc. for any employee who asks (a doctor’s note is also needed if the item caps a certain price range). However, I recently had an employee request an under-the-desk cycling machine. He claims that the model he showed us makes no noise, which seems impossible. His floor of the office is typically whisper-quiet outside of two designated team meeting times and lunch.

    Furthermore, the doctor’s note the employee gave us says that he needs an hour of exercise a day. *Everyone* needs that. We all just need to find time at lunch, outside of work or on the way to work. In fact, we have an on-site bike locker, shower and change room to facilitate that very thing.

    Would I be unreasonable to deny his request because the equipment would be disruptive/he can get his hour outside of work? Also, does anyone else have experience with this equipment? Is it as disruptive as I’m imagining?

        1. valentine*

          Would I be unreasonable to deny his request because the equipment would be disruptive/he can get his hour outside of work?
          Yes. Give him a chance to make it work at work. Any noise would probably be consistent and possible to tune out. Does the team need more silence than a graveyard?

        2. Melody Pond*

          I had this one – it IS totally quiet, almost totally silent. It really helped me with keeping up energy and focus.

          https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B0771L5HN5/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_NSxDDbE8CKAT0

          Does he already have an adjustable sit-stand desk? Because knees can bump up under regular desks, but with a sit-stand desk, you can just adjust the desk to the right height so your knees don’t bump it. That, plus an adjustable keyboard tray attachment (so keyboard and mouse can be at the right position for his hands) would probably be necessary for the whole setup to work.

          1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

            That link goes to something other than an under-desk cycle (goes to corner protectors for child-proofing). Can you try linking again?

      2. Data deal*

        Seconding Lemon Zinger: I used to sit next to someone with one of these and it was absolutely silent- I never noticed it being used (And I have pretty severe ADHD so sometimes even the sound of other’s typing distracts me)

      3. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I have one of these, and it doesn’t make any noise at all. I didn’t even get an expensive one, just the $25 one they sell at Walmart. My coworkers didn’t even know I had it until last week, that’s how quiet it is.

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          Dang–I’m going to get one of those. I used to take a 20 min. walk at work, but in our new location it’s very hot and there’s almost no shade, very unpleasant at high noon.

          1. Lime green Pacer*

            Just be aware that you probably won’t get any cardio from it, according to my partner’s cardiac rehab exercise therapist. (We got an e-bike instead!)

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Would it be possible to reimburse him up to the point that you would normally cover equipment? So if staff would normally be granted a $100 stand up desk, and his cycle is $150, you could reimburse the $100?

      1. Krabby*

        That’s a good idea, but wouldn’t work for us. With ergo equipment we pay for all of it. That way we can keep it if someone leaves and re-issue it, or ban something if it becomes a problem. It’s a policy from before my time that is the product of some bad blood between our CEO and a former employee. There is no way I’m getting an exception.

        It is more expensive than what we typically buy, but not by much. I’m mostly worried about the noise and the hassle of having to take them away from people if it becomes a problem (because as soon as I approve one, I’ll get at least three more requests within the month).

    3. DataGirl*

      Just a couple weeks ago a manager in the department adjacent to mine banned someone’s under desk elliptical because it was distracting. I think more from the people stopping by to see what was going on perspective than noise, but I could be wrong.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        You do not know that, and the doctor’s note implies otherwise.

        If it’s silent, why not get it?

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have one. It’s silent. Additionally, my housemate’s desk is directly below mine with no insulation in my floor/his ceiling and a double ended vent in between, so literally there is a hole in the hardwood floor under my pedals and above his desk, and he cannot hear it when I am pedaling either. It’s not disruptive at all, either to me or to the people around me.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        (That said, it’s certainly doesn’t make any sense to request it as an ergonomic thing, and in fact I’m sure using it is LESS ergonomic than not using it, because of the awkward positioning and risk of banging knees on the desktop etc. I’m only addressing the noise question.)

        1. Krabby*

          Thank you, that’s two people justifying that they are quiet, so that’s really helpful. Would you mind letting me know the model you use? Another reason I’ve been so concerned about the noise is because the model he brought up has a ton of noise complaints in the reviews. I’ve found other options, but there is a ton of choice.

          As for this not necessarily being an ergo issue, I agree. However, because doctor’s notes are attached to some of the ergo requests, it has become the de-facto place for our employees to request any kind of accommodation. I don’t mind, but it can put things in a gray area sometimes.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            I don’t remember the exact model or manufacturer, but I got it off Target’s website for $25, heh. I think I just searched something like “under desk pedals”? Looking now under that keyword on their site, I think mine is the Lumex model.

          2. nym*

            I have the “Drive medical” model, $16, and no that’s not a typo. It truly is silent. The global trade identification number – you should be able to search this for specifications – is 08936482205430.

    6. pcake*

      Is your employee asking for the DeskCycle? Mine was utterly silent. The cheaper ones sometimes can develop annoying squeaks, but my experience is that the DeskCycle is very nice and fits under pretty much any desk.

  53. Jabs*

    Whats a tactful way to tell my boss that a certain type of work is too mentally challenging/exhausting for me to do all at once? I’m a creative professional and am often asked to report how long a project will take me in days/hours. This particular type of project is a lot of “deep work” that requires active problem solving and observation throughout – I find that while the entire process might take me 10-15 hours when counted in pure time, it often takes me 3 days or more to get it done well since I need frequent breaks to step away. When I just “power through” and try to do it in 2 days as assigned the results are usually inferior and I make worse decisions.

    Is there a way of framing this that doesnt make it sound like I dont want to do the work or that I’m not competent to do it? I feel like its common sense that certain types of work/tasks take more brain power than others, and that I might need to intersperse this with “lighter” sorts of projects, but Im still stuck on how to spin this in a way that doesnt sound like an excuse…

    1. Ra94*

      Have you tried talking to your boss about this yet? Because you set it out really well here- what if you just said exactly that to your boss? It doesn’t sound like an excuse at all; it sounds like you know how to get the best possible results. So you might as well ask, and go from there! Your boss might be absolutely fine with you taking 3 days per project. Your boss might want to test it out and see if the results ARE better when you get more time. Or they might say they actually don’t mind getting an inferior result in 2 days because time is the priority.

      1. Jabs*

        Thank you this is reassuring haha! I’m feeling after seeing and responding to some answers like I’m asking the wrong question. It should be “how do I explain to my manager that tracking and estimating the number of hours something takes is not the most effective way of determining when we can have it done by.” Or “how do I explain to my manager that an hour means different things for each kind of project.” Or maybe “whats a tactful way to tell my manager who ‘doesnt want to micromanage’ that she is, in fact, micromanaging?”

    2. Purt's Peas*

      I’m coming from a software development perspective on this, but give the estimate that includes your mental breaks. Always pad an estimate–your boss should also add a bit of padding on when they give an estimate to their higher-ups and so on.

      You could also phrase it like, “it’d probably take about 15 hours total to complete, so a good deadline for me would probably be four days out from the starting point,” or whatever, if you need talk about pure work hours for billing reasons or what have you.

      1. Jabs*

        I like your language here, and I think you’re right- My fiance is also in software development and tells me the same thing, that I should estimate 1.5 – 2 times longer than I think they will. I usually hesitate to do this because in the past when I’ve asked for more time on projects I’ve gotten push back.

        Time management is not my greatest skill, in part because I find it very difficult to tell my manager “no” when she asks me if I can get something done in a certain amount of time, and in part because I am just bad at estimating. This situation is a combination of my own anxieties around my performance (which I would have no matter) and the pressure of working in a team that is perpetually understaffed.

    3. new kid*

      Does your boss typically ask for that level of specifics? If the question is just ‘how long will this take,’ I would err on the side of not trying to over communicate and just say ‘I can have it finished by Friday.’ If there’s pushback at that point, then you could maybe add more nuance but only if it really seems necessary – like, ‘It shouldn’t take more than x hours, but considering the type of work involved [and the rest of my workload], I think spreading it out would be beneficial.’

      In most fields, the assumption is that you have multiple things on your plate and that if you say you need a week to accomplish something you’re not actually going to spend a solid 40 hours on it. Not trying to downplay your anxiety (my mind does that too!) but I think you might be overthinking this one.

      1. Jabs*

        Thanks for input, I guess I may be overthinking this…

        We are asked to track on hours for project management purposes – my boss has us report this every week so she can see how many hours each type of project typically takes (in order to determine, in part, how many things we can handle). I would love to pad my estimates, and ideally I would, but in general we’re often asked to justify how much time things are going to take. The messaging from my boss is often that if it takes too long we cant/wont do it or will have to find another way, which can make it feel very important to know exactly how many hours we think we can complete something in.

        I think I may be overthinking this one thing because its a symptom of a larger problem, which is that I often feel like I’m being asked to justify my time, and end up spending a lot of my time watching the clock while working (which certainly doesnt make me work more effectively). I have had conversations in the past where I have asked for more time on a project, but been told that I should have been able to finish it in the number of hours I reported, or else that I should have worked more production hours that week to meet the deadline (followed by a bit of a lecture).

          1. Jabs*

            I mostly hate that she begins many of these conversations with “I dont want to micromanage, but…” which I feel like is the boss equivalent of “No offense, but…”

            Still, thank you for your answer, its reassuring to hear that I’m not totally unreasonable in thinking this is a thing!

        2. CM*

          I think you need to suggest that you start taking two different measurements: the number of hours it takes to complete the work, and the max number of hours you can do in a single day. So, you might end up with something like, “These projects are averaging 15 hours total, but the max amount of time I can focus on this in a single day is averaging 4.5 hours.”

          If you wanted to try to lobby for that approach, I’d explain it as you did here, and add that you’re concerned that if you don’t take your max hours/day into consideration, the scheduling will end up being too ambitious. This solution not only still lets her have accurate data about project timelines and scheduling, it lets her have even MORE accurate data.

    4. College Career Counselor*

      I think you may be automatically assuming that each of these types of projects is the only thing you’ll be doing and just counting the hours. Why can’t you just tell the boss that it will take three days (or the better part of a week) to give your self the actual time to do the job properly in concert with all your other duties and requirements. Then if you finish it earlier, fantastic.

      1. Jabs*

        She actually does ask for hour estimates, in part to determine our workload. We do not report break time usually – my timesheet for the week usually totals 25 – 30 hours of tracked time, including meetings, and down to project phase (Im not in video but think script, filming, editing, post-production) with tasks in our project management system that reflect this.

        I don’t know how other teams handle this kind of work as this is my first job in this field – in my previous work we just had deadlines and got things done if we could. I prefer that, to be honest, but this is how we’ve done things here since the team started (I was this manager’s first employee four years ago). I really really dislike Gannt charts but unfortunately its how we do it.

        1. Senor Montoya*

          Can you ask other people in the field? Others at your workplace, others you may know, do you have a mentor, use linkedin to find folks, professional society?

    5. fposte*

      I’m with others. Unless it seems to be drilling down into a labor-hour audit, it’s like you’re being asked when it will be done, not granularly how many hours it will take you. Keep in mind also that most managers are asking people who have several things on their plate, so they’re expecting you to figure out when things would get done considering your other priorities as well.

    6. Mrs_helm*

      Agree with all the above. Another thing, if you’re writing out the quote as X hrs for a, Y hrs for b, is to really think about what some of those requirements are. I learned I had to add a line Z hours for ‘product documentation’. This could be a text document with fonts and colors used in a logo, or extensive help docs for an application. But it needs to be done, and sometimes redone, and doing it is part of that “thinking through the work” time that can be hard to convey.

  54. designbot*

    I finally had a somewhat productive discussion with my boss about how the whole team (the whole office really) feels they cannot rely on him. The other person at my level (one level below our boss, above the rest of our team) and I brought it up in our weekly management meeting, and framed it as asking for increased transparency and availability from him. People come to us DAILY with some variation on “How on earth do I get Boss to respond/show up/do his job????” and we spend a lot of time we don’t really have managing this dynamic. We were really nervous going into this conversation, but he actually took it really well. I don’t know what else I expected, as he generally does handle criticism really well in the moment but then reverts to his old ways quickly. But it’s a start. If nothing else, the next time it comes up with HR, the answer is now “yes we told him to his face, he promised to change, we gave him specific actionable steps to help.” So, yay!

  55. No Tribble At All*

    New HR person in our company is a drama llama idiot. One of my friends is trying to transfer from working under ToxicBoss to another department. I used to work for ToxicBoss and left last year. Because ToxicBoss is a vicious, vindictive idiot, I didn’t tell him I was looking until I signed the offer with my new manager. But now we have a new HR person. My friend is trying to do the same thing, but new HR won’t give her a formal offer letter. New!HR said he won’t give her a letter until she talks to ToxicBoss, and when she and Future!Boss tried to explain that it wasn’t realistic to give ToxicBoss a headsup, he laughed at her and said she’d lost the new position. She left in tears, and Future!Boss had to call her to talk her out of quitting the whole company.

    I don’t know why new HR guy decided to side with ToxicBoss. I don’t know why he thinks that anyone in the world would resign their position without a signed offer in hand, even for an internal transfer. Friend and I have allies who have already had A Talk with the New HR guy and New HR guy’s boss, and rumor has it New HR guy will be gone soon. I’m just so baffled and angry on my friend’s behalf.

    1. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Wow. Well, good riddance to New HR guy. Maybe he could take his good buddy ToxicBoss with him?

    2. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

      This dude sounds like he thinks he has way more power than he really does, lol. It’s sad really. Hopefully, your friend will get her letter soon.

    3. Anonymous Water Drinker*

      HR people can take away an offer? That’s weird. At my current company, all the HR person does when someone is hired is initiate a background check. I do the other parts- drug testing, orientation, E-Verify, etc.

    4. Arts Akimbo*

      What a weird, power-trippy thing for NewHRguy to do! I hope the rumors are true and he will be gone soon. People like that do not belong in HR.

  56. Ra94*

    I guess I have…sort of a success story with my very toxic job! (I’ve posted before, but basically I’m working as a contractor for a very narcissistic boss for 18 months before going to an already-lined-up dream job, because I can take as much time off as I want and got to spend about 1/3 of the time traveling.)

    Basically, in my most recent travels, I agreed to do some work remotely…and turns out physically removing myself from Toxic Boss made ALL the difference. No more 2-hour rants about sandwiches or her high school coach while I’m trying to work. No more of her standing over my shoulder and dictating 30-page motions because “it’s quicker than her typing it.” No more “and just one more thing” at 6 pm, because my phone conveniently won’t be checked until the following morning.

    And now that I’m back in town, I’ve been asking to WFH about twice a week, and my stress levels are so much lower already. (I’m more productive, too, which means she’s getting more results for her money- not that she thinks of it that way.) Has anyone else found little fixes like that which makes a bad job or boss a little bit more bearable, at least until you can get out?

    1. juliebulie*

      Work from home was the ONLY relief I ever was able to get from bad bosses, and even that wasn’t a perfect solution since one of those bad bosses would IM me 20 times a day to make sure I was sitting in front of my computer. (I was, but I didn’t need to be interrupted 20 times.)

      OK, I just thought of something else that reduced the impact of having a bad boss – a new coworker. Bad boss for whatever reason turned all of her attention/rage to the new coworker. That was better for me, but it was still upsetting to see her treating someone that way. (And then the bad boss got a new boss, who took a personal dislike to my boss, and then my boss didn’t have time to mess with any of us.)

      Of course, the ultimate cure is to get a new job. If that is already lined up, you can just gloat about it to yourself until your last day at this job.

  57. DrTheLiz*

    Aaaaagh! I have a networking meeting on Monday with a contact-of-a-contact at a company I really, really want to work for. Obviously I should wear a suit, know about the company etc, but what should I bring with me? CV? (She has a copy already). Cover letter draft? Cupcakes? I’m panicking a little bit. Help?

    1. 867-5309*

      First: Deep breath.

      Next, bring only yourself and plan to write a thoughtful thank you email afterwards. If this is a networking meeting, then it’s a chance to get to her and understand more about the company. Think of it less about selling yourself (e.g., you don’t want to spend the entire time talking) and more an opportunity to meet someone knew. People like talking about themselves, so come prepared with questions.

      Also, I wouldn’t necessarily wear a suit unless that’s the culture of the place of work, place you’re going or industry. I’ve worn jeans to most of my networking meetings, with a few exceptions based on the indicators I mention in the previous sentence.

      1. DrTheLiz*

        Springer Nature – quite a prestigious (science) journal company, in Berlin. The suit is pale grey, so it’s less “suit”-y than it might be but the overall corporate culture here is fairly formal.

    2. M. Albertine*

      Alison has some good suggestions for questions to ask: search on “informational interview” in the archives. I’m sure you can tailor them…bring them as notes, you’ll look prepared!

  58. Jamie*

    Fans aren’t that interesting.

    A small desk fan that is silent and bothers no one, yet is the topic of conversation. Why am I warm when the office is perfectly comfortable? Do I want them to change the thermostat? Am I feeling okay?

    All asked in pleasant conversational tones. I wish I could have answered:

    Go ask your mother. No, it’s my internal thermostat that’s wonky. Not until you stop asking about my fan.

    I put it away and I’m now back to pretending I just like putting on and peeling off layers because it’s super fun.

    Had my office to myself for the last two weeks and was able to use my fan and cooling towel and it was fabulous. The move to my own office cannot happen soon enough.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Gurl. Tell them that it’s hot flashes, don’t be shy! I’m not even of that age and I run hot and cold.

      It’s 34 degrees outside and I’m sitting in front of my fan.

      I used to wrap myself up giant fluffy blankets and sleep in front of the fan in the living room. So just tell them you like the airflow feeling and it’s not a temperature issue if you want to not be as brazen as I am ;)

    3. CheeryO*

      I have a few coworkers (all 50-60s men, if I’m being real here) who are just baffled by the fact that people have different internal thermostats and that I need a cardigan even though they’re comfortable in short sleeves. The way they talk about it is so weirdly accusatory. Sorry for confusing you, I guess?

    4. ArtK*

      Put the fan back! When someone asks you, ask them: “Why are you asking? Is the fan causing problems for you?” Then change the subject. Refuse to discuss it after that; it’ll become boring to them after a while. Don’t let them bully you into being uncomfortable!

      1. valentine*

        Put the fan back!
        & tell them you’re a celeb. I would start shortening words willy-nilly and try to be obnoxious. Or pretend they secretly want you to turn it up. “Just ask! I’ll crank it to 3, no prob! You deserve it!”

    5. Not a cat*

      UGH, PEOPLE!

      I used to have the office that was 10 below in August (but oddly temperate in December). I brought in a space heater and worked with IT so I could use it w/o tripping breakers.

      “Why do you need a heater…..OHHHH it does feel better in here….” said everyone, everyday, every month, for fourteen years.

  59. Krakatoa*

    Am I obligated to tell a job I only intend to work there for a short while? I recently accepted a second job in my industry for weekend work to help pay off some debts and improve my family’s financial stability. I don’t really want to work there very long term, and the job was listed as occasional part time. Should I have disclosed that from the beginning that this was going to be a temporary arrangement for me?

    1. Jamie*

      No, especially as was listed occasional part time as they have to know the need to work another job will be required for most people.

      Now, if it were a job where they were specific about needing someone long term then it would be wrong, imo. But in this case it’s fine.

    2. Mel*

      “[T]he job was listed as occasional part time.”
      Right there indicates they realize it wouldn’t be a permanent thing. I don’t know how well it pays, but I’m guessing you would want to work there at least several months to earn enough money to meet those goals. If you’re there at least 6 months, I think that’s a pretty reasonable run. Shorter too wouldn’t be a problem – the very nature of the job implies it’s not a permanent career role.
      However, I would absolutely NOT mention that you don’t want to work there long term. Keep that quiet, and don’t talk in specific details about your plan. If word got around you already knew you were going to bail, you might end up “not being needed.”

  60. Allison*

    I don’t normally like working from home and I tend to only do it if I feel there’s a good reason. This month, I’m doing a charity challenge at a local fitness studio, and decided to WFH once a week to squeeze in one extra workout a week, since I can’t go after work every day (basically increasing my workouts from 4x/wk to 5x/wk), and this week Friday worked best with my schedule. Well, at the same time, people have been complaining that my team at work is “never there,” and the head of our department sent out an email asking “where is everybody?” and letting us know only two people were actually in the office. I know I’m just one person, but I feel responsible for this since I knew, making this decision, that Friday was already a popular WFH day for a lot of people. I did, for the record, talk to my immediate supervisor about it, I just didn’t tell the department head, which I will do going forward.

    But, for a sanity check, am I in the wrong here? I am going to move my WFH day to Wednesday later this month, if that matters.

    1. 867-5309*

      I can’t speak to whether or not you should have notified the department head, as that is entirely dependent upon the culture of the company. However, it is important to consider the optics of most of the team being out of the office and if you have the ability to be flexible, adjust accordingly.

      1. 867-5309*

        That said, when I manage a team and people want time away (such as during the holidays when the office is open), I see it as my responsibility to talk to the team about coverage and optics, so your manager is the one who should really be keeping an eye on things.

    2. LKW*

      You have to get three outs in baseball – it’s a team effort. Remind your boss of your arrangement and remind everyone how to reach team members who may not be present physically but are still available online.

    3. Combinatorialist*

      Is your department head just being a little butts in seats or is there an actual reason you need coverage? My office is a ghost town today and is always light on Fridays. Pretty much no one schedules meetings on Fridays unless it is truly unavoidable and this works just fine for us, though it depends on the work you do.

      1. Allison*

        It’s definitely an optics issue, apparently some people have complained that sometimes there’s hardly anyone in our area of the office. We’re not an admin pool, though, or a team where we all perform similar tasks which we need to be present in the office to do properly, when people come to our team for something there’s usually one specific person who can handle their needs, and that one person is usually either at their desk and you can talk to them, or they’re not and you can email them.

        Our department head is definitely not a “butts in seats” kinda guy, but he does want the team to have a good reputation, and I think he’s concerned that we don’t right now.

        1. valentine*

          Don’t give it up out of guilt or before finding some other solution. If they want to saddle up the Pony Express, let them. If you felt stuck in your seat, how long before you’d be looking for a job where you didn’t feel that way?

    4. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      You are definitely not in the wrong. Your dept head should have started with their directs, and not the entire dept. Also, nothing to feel guilty about. Although I get it coming from a butts in seats type company culture in the past. But in the BIG scheme of things, you’re extra workout per week is better for your health long-term, and dealing with a dept. head is just going to be that big of a deal in the future. Sounds like the larger issue is that you work for a company with a butts in seats culture, which I definitely disagree with. So you may eventually have to decide if you want to stick with that culture. But again, in the big scheme of things, acknowledge your guilt, and then continue on without giving it another thought.

  61. Help Needed! Please*

    So I am currently writing the annual board report (don’t even get me started, the main focus of the report is about a retreat that happened before I was even hired for this position not to mention that my role is in lobbying) and I really need help here. My boss is expecting me to write the whole thing, including our “vision and strategy” moving forward and I have a meeting to show him the first draft today at 2:00 (I was given three days to write the first draft which is already 11 pages long single spaced). Can someone please help me come up with some ideas or basic stock language for this? I am just completely at a loss for what to write.

    1. chizuk*

      Vision and strategy shouldn’t come from you, that should come from the top. you can make something up if you want, talk about “improve growth and market share (depending on what if it you do), but really… your boss should be giving you language for this. Even if it’s just old marketing materials or PPT slides.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        This. Unless you’re the org’s Chief Communications/Marketing Officer, this is not remotely in your lane.

    2. Buttons*

      WTH. Vision and strategy should come from the highest leaders in the organization. I would leave that area blank and let them know that everything you have read states that the vision and strategy should really be set at the highest level of the organization. If he tells you to just write something, then I would literally google “vision and strategy statements for ” And tweak something you find in the results.

    3. Help Needed! Please*

      Yeah, that is what I thought. This whole project has been ridiculous. I feel like it is most definitely not in my job description to be doing this, it is his job to liaise with the Board of Directors. We are a nonprofit trade organization (so we have members that are from a specific industry).

      I tried to talk to him about that particular section and said I don’t feel comfortable writing it and he said that I had to write it myself.

        1. Help Needed! Please*

          The last Board Report is from 1998 and that is more budget-focused than “here’s what we accomplished”-focused unfortunately.

            1. Help Needed! Please*

              Oh believe me, this isn’t even the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this job. The entire staff is currently mutinying against our doody-head boss (I don’t know what the profanity filter is on here, but please know that he is far worse than a doody-head) and now the Board President is involved and it just isn’t great right now.

      2. Buttons*

        This is a nonprofit with a board of directors and there is no vision or mission statement?! WTF. That is usually the only thing non-profits get right in the organizational development area. I would literally google “vision and mission statements for X nonprofits.” Piece together something that you wish was true!

        1. Help Needed! Please*

          The best we have are our three pillars: Advocacy, Education, Excellence. Otherwise there is absolutely no vision/mission statement for our organization. I would have said something about it but lord knows I will probably have to be the one to put it together then and I don’t want to do that.

          1. chizuk*

            OK, so constructive help and not music man lyrics ;)

            “Our mission is to advocate for our community of [whatever it is] in this time of [whatever problem is facing your community, maybe increased robots driving down jobs? Not enough construction funding?] through our great work in [whatever your main area of work is, are you advocating in specific areas/to specific people/roles?]. By focusing on educating [who you are educating], we will achieve excellence in [whatever your field is].”

            “Our vision is a world in which [our community] has achieved [the thing you’re striving for] through our pillars of advocacy , education, and excellence. We will achieve this vision through our constant work in mission-specific areas of [whatever they are].”

            Hope this helps!

            1. Help Needed! Please*

              Oh my goodness, you are my hero. You are the best ever. Thank you, random internet stranger.

      3. Glomarization, Esq.*

        Vision and strategy statements are things that organizations hire consultants to develop with the board and executive staff. The only thing I can guess is that your boss doesn’t actually understand what he’s asking for.

        1. Help Needed! Please*

          The only thing about this project that I am clear on is that my boss is not clear about what he wants. It has been changing constantly for months so I haven’t touched it. So the board had a retreat back in December (I was hired in January) and that is the main focus of the report. He just threw a stack of random notes in my office and told me to write a report.

          1. Glomarization, Esq.*

            I bet the purpose of the retreat was to hammer out a strategy and vision. Your boss probably figures that what you need is laid out in those notes.

            1. Help Needed! Please*

              That isn’t what is in the notes unfortunately. I have them pinned up all over my office walls. We have two membership categories and the notes are the goals of each membership category in 2019 (very sector specific stuff about regulations). And I can’t really use most of that for the vision statement because my boss waited so long to actually care about the discussion at the retreat that we have hardly accomplished anything our board wanted us to.

              1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

                And I can’t really use most of that for the vision statement because my boss waited so long to actually care about the discussion at the retreat that we have hardly accomplished anything our board wanted us to.

                Looord. Did you know this place was this screwed up before you accepted the position?

  62. Kimmy Schmidt*

    My department is down about 5 positions (out of less than 30). Any suggestions for finding the balance between helping out more where needed and keeping myself from taking on too much and burning out?

    1. Long-time AMA Lurker*

      Experiencing something similar in my org, where there’s a lot of “all hands on deck” and “cross-training” going on. I would make a list of tasks and activities you actually WANT to help with and be proactive about reaching out to do them, with your boss’s concurrence of course. I would also make a list of “nopes” that do not interest you or that would not enrich your professional development. That way when opportunities pop up, you already have a sense of your preferences – or even better, you get your pick up front because you took the initiative.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        All of this – don’t let someone else decide what you’re going to help with. You’ll end up with the mess no one else wants, trust me.

    2. Kathenus*

      If your current workload normally fills your workday, for each new task you offer to take on right now be clear what current task you’ll put on hold until there’s more staffing.

    3. Aggretsuko*

      My policy is, I first have to do the work that ONLY I can do and nobody is helping me with. IF I get through my pile and have extra time to help others, then I’ll do it. I still have to be busy from 8-5, after all. But I am not volunteering for overtime (not that it’s an option anyway at this point).

  63. FrustratedPanda*

    How soon is too soon to job hunt after starting a new position? I have been at my new company for about 4 months and am realizing it is a terrible and toxic place to work. I’m outperforming most of my team and outpacing set goals but that still doesn’t seem good enough for our manager. I feel stressed all the time because of it. Everyone on my team is miserable because he is an ineffective manager who doesn’t communicate or give clear directions. On top of that, they told me I could work from home 3 days a week, but a month after I started they changed the company policy. No one can work from home anymore. So I’m getting up at 4:30AM for a 2 hour commute each way. How long should I try to stay here before applying elsewhere? How bad would it look to start looking now citing the change in work-from-home policy and the 4 hours of daily commuting as the reason for the fast move? Thanks!

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      I think you’re fine. Unless you have a record of job hopping saying that circumstances changed in the job after you were hired I don’t think will be a flag.

    2. Bird Person*

      I think they changing commute rules would give you a pretty safe out. I would say you were excited about the position and ready to work with that structure, but that when the rules changed you realized it was unsustainable. I’ve found that “shorter commute” seems to be a pretty safe response to that question (assuming the new place is closer, of course!).

  64. Fiona*

    Gift/card ideas (or none of the above) for someone who helped you majorly in a career transition?

    I worked at Company A for 2.5 years in an assistant role in a creative industry. A creative I worked with (he was in a much more senior capacity) left to go to Company B. We kept in touch and he said if I was ever interested in coming over, they would love to have me. I was really interested but honestly a bit nervous about the leap (imposter syndrome, etc) but he gently pushed me and now I’m in 3 months into a position at Company B. This has represented a HUGE step for me, as far as salary, control over my time, vacation time, benefits, career trajectory, etc. But most importantly it’s been incredibly rewarding to work on my own creative projects, as opposed to administratively supporting other people’s work. It’s been challenging but also so wonderful. I know I’m still in a honeymoon period but I’m really happy with this move.

    Regarding the guy who made this happen – he directs another team and we rarely see each other, although we made plans to get lunch when I started and those plans fell through (our work is hectic, so he canceled, then I canceled). Due to aforementioned imposter syndrome, I felt like I had to prove myself before I could really fully absorb that I worked here. I’ve gotten pretty much all good feedback along the way and I want to formally thank this guy somehow. (I thanked him via text/email in this process but never in a formal way). Would it be “off” to give him a gift or is a card more appropriate? (He’s way above me in the chain of command).

    I just want him to know how much I appreciate what he did. I am an asset to the company, so I know it’s not a favor or charity, but his recommendation carried a lot of weight and represents like a 180 shift as far as my career. I feel awkward about it now that it’s 3 months out but I would like to communicate my gratitude somehow. Thoughts?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      Do you think its unreasonable given mutually busy schedules to say that now that you’ve been there 3 months and are realizing what a great step its been for you, you’d like to try again to get lunch? If it would be too hard, I think a card is more appropriate than a gift.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        Agreed. A nice handwritten card/note is all that’s needed here.

    2. Bird Person*

      I think just a thoughtful card would be lovely! Timing it around an anniversary (3 months, 6 months, 1 year) may make you feel more comfortable with acknowledging the change and his role in it.

    3. juliebulie*

      Whether you send a gift or not, a formal letter of thanks (on paper or on a card) is much more important, I think.

      For a gift, I would recommend a consumable – fruit, chocolates, something like that.

    4. Anono-me*

      Could you find a nice and interesting coffee table book that’s relevant to your industry? (Teapot Design through History or Llama Grooming Landmarks etc.) Inside write a brief but heartfelt thank you note.

  65. DC*

    I took a new job about a month ago. I felt really good post interviews about the culture and manager and work.

    Now, I LOVE the culture as it stands, with everything EXCEPT my manager. He is a crazy micromanager, which never came up or was hinted at in interviews. In fact, I asked repeatedly and was told “autonomy autonomy autonomy.” He does it to everyone in the office: treats us like children. It’s so bad that EXTERNAL folks are aware and make jokes about it behind his back.

    I DO NOT handle being micromanaged well. It makes me very frustrated. I’m not sure how to a. handle him and b. tell if I should bail out while it’s still really really early.

    I’ve already had a talk with him about how I feel micromanaged. It changed very little.

    1. MissGirl*

      One thing that has helped me with micro-managing clients is to realize it’s not about me; it’s about them. I had one woman who frustrated me to no end with her constant nitpicking on things that did not matter or weren’t that big of deal. I once got three or four emails about a missing hyphen (her fault) buried in a 400-page document. I fixed it and sent a PDF back to her showing the change after the first email and assuring her all future versions would reflect that. She had to send other emails reiterating the problem (already fixed) and listing all the places the document appeared (already assured they would be changed).

      After the second project with her, I stopped expecting her to behave in what I considered a normal way. Letting go of the expectation was a huge relief. What also helped was seeing she was that way with everyone and it was her own issues and anxiety not my work that was the problem. I would also remind myself that I was getting paid to deal with her. It was as much a part of my job as graphic design.

      1. DC*

        I will work on this. I really really appreciate this viewpoint, and will be using it as a mantra going forward.

    2. lemon*

      My experience with micromanage-y bosses is that they don’t change, and you can’t really change them.

      That being said, I think MissGirl is spot on to recommend not taking it personally. It’s not about you. It’s about them and their weird anxiety/control/trust issues, which *you* are not responsible for.

      And I think there are things you can do try to get ahead of the micromanagement and help you feel in control of your own workload. Give frequent status updates. Try to give them the illusion of control by getting their approval when you make your own decisions (e.g. “Hey boss, I was planning to do X action item on issue Y because of reasons 1, 2, 3. What are your thoughts on that?”). And try to think like a micromanager and anticipate all of the issues they’re likely to point out to you ahead of time, and proactively fix them or address them before your boss can point them out to you.

      I think a lot of micromanagers have trust issues, like they don’t think that others are capable of working to their standards. I think doing the previously mentioned things helps show that you are aware of what their standards are and are trying to work towards them.

      But ultimately, if being micromanaged really presses your buttons, it might be time to look for a new job and try to find a manager who’s a better fit. I HATE being micromanaged, and have had to move on from every micromanage-y boss I’ve had.

      1. DC*

        Thank you! I was working towards some of those pieces as well. A big part of it is that most of us in the office HAVE already anticipated those needs, if only they would let us finish the sentence.

        Yeah… my concern is it’s only been a month and a half. Is it too soon to jump ship? It feels really embarassing and like I’m a failure for not being able to handle it.

        1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

          You’re not a failure – your boss just sucks. Can you last long enough to transfer internally to another department? If you like the company culture overall, I don’t think you should let one person poison the well for you and run you off.

  66. Am I The Jerk*

    I have a department every PM has probably dealt with. They llloooovee to complain about how active projects aren’t working for them, but they never attend meetings, read emails, etc.

    Another fun habit of this department is that they make a big stink at the time when I unveil the changes or get an accolade.

    An example: “we want to thank Am I for her fantastic … Yes employee from department?”
    “I just want to say, I think it’s important to get our departments perspective on this and I dont think Am I has a grasp of our needs.”

    This has happened to me a lot, so I have a strategy to handle it now. Basically when they start up on this I say pleasantly “Are you volunteering to join X committee? I agree I would love to have department at the table!” 100% of the time the go quite and mutter about being too busy.

    I think this is a really successful way of shutting down what I see as rude jabs at me, as well as point out that departments hypocrisy for those it in the know, but another coworker said they felt I was a tad aggressive.

    So am I being a jerk here? Is there a better way to handle this?

    As an aside, I have tried meeting with the director of that department one-on-one, offered to move meetings to their preferred days, offered to meet beforehand to get their perspective on items, everything I can think of and they just don’t engage.

    1. LKW*

      Your approach is perfect. The other way is to have an email trail of invites and reminders to attend and the occasional check in and consequence of no action “Hi, just a reminder that we’ve set up meetings to review requirements, and I’ve noticed there is no one from your team attending although the following people were invited. We’ll be closing requirements on project on date x. After that we won’t be able to address any changes without significant cost/time impact.”

      That way they can’t come back and say “but we didn’t know about it!”.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Not too aggressive when you’re responding to public criticism. I think you can and should push back and your approach is perfect. You’re effectively turning what is meant to be a criticism of you into an actionable item for the complainer, or addressing it like they are pointing out a lapse in their processes, not yours.

      I could also see this:
      “I don’t think Am I has a grasp of our needs”
      “Yes, when I’ve requested that information it’s been a challenge to get responses from your department. I would love to have better insight into X and Y, so I hope you will support providing me with that information.”

      (Okay, that first line might be a bit blunt, so maybe that’s just the subtext)

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        I don’t think it’s too blunt; in fact, I think it’s perfect phrasing and downright diplomatic given the circumstances.

  67. MissGirl*

    There was a letter a few weeks ago that got me to thinking. An office manager was struggling in her role and Alison suggested she consider if that type of job was within her ability. The OP commented in frustration that everyone seemed to think she was crappy at her job rather than give her advice on how to be better.

    How do you know you’re on a good track but going through normal challenges and adversity? Or how do you know it’s time to find something else because you’ll never be really successful for any number of reasons.

    I have a friend who’s either applied to or started business school, nursing school, law school, and one other PhD program. She gets so far and then hits a difficulty, decides it’s not meant to be, and goes back to lower level work. On the flip side, I stayed in my first job for ten years before I realized I did not have the talent to really succeed. I could better myself, but I would never be outstanding. I left and found a much more suitable career, but I stayed years too long and it cost me.

    1. Aggretsuko*

      How long do you want to keep trying to be good at something you may not naturally be good at? What’s your motivation? I went to one of those “mindset” growth vs. fixed workshops the other week and that’s what came up there. Maybe your friend is fixed mindset, or just isn’t that interested in continuing to plug along at fancy schooling. Whereas you had incentive to try to be better at your job so you could stay employed.

      Mostly I will probably keep going unless I totally hate it, am exhausted, am not getting any better despite the work I put in, etc. At least these days I don’t have to keep trying to be “well rounded” at foreign language and math any more like I had to in school. I was just Not Good At Them no matter how much time and effort and struggle I put in.

    2. juliebulie*

      You know now that you stayed years too long, but it sounds to me like you didn’t think it was too long at the time. As long as you saw a reason to keep trying and were willing to do it, it wasn’t wasteful to stay. Plus you’ve got a 10-year job on your resume. That beats my record.

      On the other hand, your friend hasn’t stuck with anything long enough to get anywhere. Seems to me that her process was way too long and way too costly, perhaps more so than yours if she has nothing to show for it.

      I think as long as you can see some possibilities in your future, and you’re happy about them and think they’re worth the effort, you’re on a good track. If you’re not getting anywhere or you decide you don’t like it or it is killing your soul, then it’s time to stop. But you do have to have some patience. Your friend needs to that hitting a bump does not mean that it’s the end of the ride. It’s just the start. If you want to get anywhere, you have to learn how to get over the bumps. Life in general is pretty damned bumpy.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      Your friend is obviously a more extreme case – she sounds like one of those people who gets enraptured by the new and shiny, but quickly disillusioned when it’s isn’t all sunshine and rainbows. If you realize you fit in that category, you do need to manage it – set minimum time limits on how long you’ll stay in something, get your novelty fix outside of work, or restrict yourself to changes that don’t cost money or disrupt your life. Also – if it’s just you it’s one thing, but think very carefully about taking on responsibilities to other people (spouse, kids) who will suffer when you waste money and time on things you aren’t going to complete.

      For cases like yours, it’s tricker. For one thing, there’s nothing wrong with being in a job that you’re okay but not spectacular at, as long as you’re performing at a level that will keep you employed and you’re not unhappy. Most people work in jobs that are more about earning a salary than deep personal fulfillment.

      Things that are signs you might be in the wrong field: You’re consistently unhappy with the work you are doing, or your own performance at it. You want to progress, but are lagging behind people with similar experience. You’re fighting against your basic personality (the job requires rigid attention to detail, and you’re scatterbrained, it’s a job that requires dealing with annoying people and you’re fundamentally antisocial). You’re hanging on because you feel you *should* be succeeding at it, but you don’t actually want to (particularly for fields that required a huge investment to get to, like PhDs, law degrees, etc.). You’ve been fired or encouraged to leave or had problem in multiple jobs in the field. You’ve tried to improve and worked hard, but it’s not helping.

      There are also things you need to think of when considering the situation. Do the same problems follow you through different jobs and your personal life? Changing fields doesn’t help when you bring the problems with you. Are your frustrations about professional progression due to external issues (like hitting the glass ceiling). Are external factors in your life that are affecting your performance or mindset, and will these be changing?

    4. CM*

      I don’t think whether or not you’re good at something is the only question that determines whether you should give up on it. If you’re bad at something you hate, then that’s a really good thing to give up on. If you’re bad at something you love, maybe keep doing it anyway. If you gravitate toward things you like, either you’ll get better at them or you won’t, but you’ll probably enjoy it more either way.

      If the question is, “I’m doing something I don’t particularly like, but I hope to do it well enough to make a lot of money or earn some other reward one day, and I can’t tell whether I’m actually improving at it or not,” you’re doing something I would never do, but I think it’s a judgement call about when it’s time to bail and whether you like you chances better investing in some other thing instead.

  68. Mel*

    I’m mortified by something that happened at work this past Tuesday. One of my bosses walked in on me being off task at my computer. I’m not sure what I should do going forward. (I wasn’t looking at anything bad, but it was personal and definitely off task.)

    I’m in a cube, with my back facing the entrance. I typically listen to podcasts (with permission) to help keep me focused and on task (otherwise I get bored and my mind wanders, and I go off task). My boss had come in to give me back my coffee mug I left in his office after a meeting an hour prior. I turn around and jump, and see him standing there holding my coffee mug. Because I had my headphones going, I did not hear him approach and have no idea how long he was there. I know he saw me with an open google search looking at how to split/combine PDFs, but the window I had open before it was a FedEx/Kinko’s online print order form that I was putting together. I had nothing shocking or scandalous open, but it definitely was not work related.
    The look on his face struck me. He’s usually very cheery and happy, but he looked disappointed and simply said “I brought you your mug.” I don’t know how long he was standing there, but I was definitely off task for several minutes. I typically skip taking a lunch and just eat at my desk to make up for any time I spend off task.

    I haven’t seen him in person since then (Yom Kippur Wednesday and I worked remotely yesterday due to feeling unwell from a chronic health condition). What should I do? Obviously I wanted to make sure I stay on task better (I’m initiating the Pomodoro method because I know it works for me), but should I address it? Do I say anything? Should I apologize? Or go on pretending nothing happened and just do better?

    I’m also nervous because I had been planning on asking for a raise during my annual review, which is coming up soon. I would be meeting with my other boss on this (who handles the administrative side), but I’m very nervous my first boss would say something against my performance based on this. Otherwise, I’m regularly complimented on my work. I’m fast and efficient, but I did pick up the bad habit of going off-task at a previous role that I haven’t been able to shake yet. I’ve never asked for a raise before, so I was already a tad nervous before this.
    Any advice, please?

    1. Fiona*

      I would take a deep breath and not worry about this. If you have a good track record so far, don’t let this bog you down. Humans take breaks, humans do non-work-related things. Maybe I come from a more permissive industry, but I think you’re fine. Ask for the raise.

      1. Mel*

        Thank you! I do have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and have been struggling with it lately, so there is an extremely high chance I am completely overthinking the situation.

        1. Fiona*

          I also have anxiety and I recognized this as very familiar thinking. Sometimes it helps me to go down a rabbit hole of rationalism, like “Okay, let’s imagine the worst and he IS angry at me for…taking a few minutes to look up something….totally benign. Is that really reasonable?” And then it allows me to retain some autonomy. No, it’s certainly not reasonable.

          I also have to remind myself that people are 99.9% of the time thinking about themselves and very rarely thinking about me :)

          A long way of saying: feel free to rid yourself of this concern and carry on with your day.

      2. Massive Dynamic*

        I think you’re fine too, and also if he was really standing there for a few minutes looking at your back while you obviously had your headphones in and didn’t know he was there, then he’s a weirdo. Can you put a small mirror near your monitors so you can see someone approach from behind?

    2. CheeryO*

      Oh my goodness, that really doesn’t sound bad at all! Is it possible that you’re misinterpreting his reaction? Maybe he felt bad about scaring you and that showed on his face? I honestly wouldn’t bring it up, and I’d be shocked if he did, unless you work in an insanely rigid office.

      1. Mel*

        Thank you so much! I’ve been having a lot of trouble with anxiety lately, and as I was writing up my post it did kind of sound like I might have been making a mountain out of a molehill.

      2. Arts Akimbo*

        That was my thought, too– the look on his face was probably just “Oh no, I scared her!”

    3. Joielle*

      I don’t think you did anything wrong…? Doing something not-work-related for a few minutes at work is fine, unless your boss has really unrealistic expectations. At every job I’ve ever had, it’s been perfectly normal to see people shopping online, reading the news, checking personal email, sending a text, or whatever, from time to time.

      If anyone did something wrong, it was your boss, for just standing there and watching you instead of knocking or waving to get your attention. Just speculation, but I think his face might have had more to do with being embarrassed that he had done something weird.

    4. cam*

      Agree that sounds like not a big deal at all unless it becomes a regular pattern that your boss notices. As a side note, when I had my back to the walkway I got a little mirror to put on the corner of my monitor and it helped with noticing when people were coming to see me.

    5. Orange You Glad*

      You would know before now if being even slightly ever off task was A Big Deal in your office culture.

      Your boss would have told you at the beginning and/or it would have come up during check-ins and/or your boss would be asking you about your internet usage that’s not work related.

      You would know if this was an issue WAY before this one time printing FedEx labels.

      Your boss seeming disappointed was a mis-read of his facial expression and I seriously doubt he was just standing behind you for a long time while you worked (if your boss was the type of person to look over your shoulder a lot, you would have had it happen before now).

    6. LGC*

      I think you…might be overthinking this?

      Is this the first time he’s caught you off task? Is your job bonkers and expects you to stay on task at ALL TIMES? As usual, there are a lot of questions that determine if and how much you should worry about this. But from what you’ve said, I think you’re just really nervous about asking for a raise and convinced they’ll find any reason to say no and it’ll be your fault. (And okay, there’s a little bit of actual truth – if focus is an area you’ve struggled with.)

      If your boss is reasonable – and it sounds like he is – at most this would be a reminder that you should limit your time off task. This is NOT something that anyone should pull a raise over. Joielle actually brings up a good point too – he might have felt like he was intruding!

      (Friendly reminder that supervisors and managers are people too. They’re not ALWAYS out to get you.)

  69. Jamie*

    I do not understand how people can talk so much. My officemate has been on the phone since he walked in the door this morning and talks so steadily it’s like he’s giving a series of really loud monologues.

    I’ve gotten spoiled by the silence and ability to think as he’s been travelling last two weeks. Now that he’s back I read the same paragraph over and over as my focus is gone. I got so good at tuning him out it was usually like I didn’t hear him and I know I’ll get back into that zone but it’s been a hell of a morning.

    (I get the talking for work but why does it have to be at 11 all the time. It’s like his one setting is full volume.)

    1. Wishing You Well*

      I hope you can again tune him out. Otherwise you might need noise-cancelling headphones. Really good ones.
      Best of Luck

    3. Windchime*

      We have one of these in the office, too. I’m in a cube farm and he’s not on our team, but he is situated nearby. He is retirement age and has apparently started living his retirement at work because he rolls in around 10 AM and starts talking (LOUDLY and URGENTLY). He never, ever shuts up. He is an expert on all things; sometimes he talks about work but mostly it’s just anything and everything else. It’s a huge relief when he’s out of the office; it’s just so peaceful with the sound of keyboards clicking and soft, work related hubbub happening.

      No advice; just sympathy and commiseration.

  70. voyager1*

    Happy Friday!

    I am having issues with my manager, but I am not sure how much is in my head or real. The short of it is: I don’t trust her. I want to trust her. But I don’t trust her. Things have happened in the past, but this situation is in the now.

    Back in 2017 I had my duties changed. I asked my manager if she was happy with everything, and she said yes back then. I was told it was temporary for 6 months. I also asked if this was some kind of demotion and she said no.

    Now it is the end of 2019 and guess what? Those duties are coming back! Yay! Right? Well no. She has said to me in private that she needs me to do these duties and is depending on me to learn them and this is part of some big plan or some such. HOWEVER in public she has said she wants me and two others to do these duties and whoever is best will do them. I am frankly not interested in a contest. I did these before and by her word I did them fine. Sadly I don’t have any emails of her saying anything, just verbal. Additionally these are not the most highest desired duties in the department nor is this something that will lead to a promotion.

    I want to explain to her, that this feels like a bait and switch. I was told that my rotation of duties was 6 months, not two years, back in 2017. And the guy who “learned” my job, guess what? He is gotten more responsibility and exposure.

    I am also really struggling to be motivated about this situation. It really doesn’t feel like an opportunity… or at least a sincere opportunity.

    In two weeks I have a 1:1 with her, and I am really torn on telling her how all his feels. She thinks I should be happy, but I am just not feeling it. I am really wrestling on what to do. Maybe just play along and soft job search? My 5 years comes up in 2020, meaning more vacation time. I would hate to lose that, but at the same time this whole situation feels off.

    Thoughts?

    P.S. I don’t blame or have any ill will towards the guy from 2017. He came into the company via a merger. He has a ton of experience. It just feels like I got pushed aside because he was “new and shiny.”

    1. valentine*

      ~Hard job search. She’s insufferable. Either you will be free or you will make it to your extra vacay. (Assuming they don’t decide, the day before, to freeze vacation or give it to whoever is best.)
      ~Go over her head.
      ~Feel free to not be best at those unwanted tasks.

  71. Lora*

    Finally got a non-insane Friday.

    This is weird and I do not know how to deal exactly. I mean maybe am dealing okay? I don’t know. It’s just bizarre.

    We had a re-org about 2 months ago due to new CEO appointing new heads of various departments, my beloved grandboss retiring, etc. Fine, whatever, no real opinions about the new guy yet, it’s all very new. I liked my old boss, he was very easy to work for, had a lot of good experience and was helpful, gave immediate feedback and jumped in to help manage projects when they hit snags or had ridiculous deadlines, but new boss was known in the company as the Client Whisperer so I was hopeful things would be sorta OK at least?

    New boss does not speak to me. At all. I’ve had absentee bosses before, who were always traveling or at another site, but we always checked in once or twice a week either by Skype or phone call or email/SharePoint things they could read on the plane, whatever. There was some sort of communication. This guy literally does not respond to direct questions like, “when I did the calculation, we will need 304986570429 of this scale system, so I think it would be better to do (new system company doesn’t already have a design for), here are the benefits, here are the drawbacks though, I have seen this at other companies and it worked great, what are your thoughts, would Company be open to this, how do we proceed?” He responded once, ever, to the request that he speak to Other Manager about how his department was messing up a client relationship spectacularly badly, to the point that it affects our production schedule, and exactly nothing came out of it.

    I send updates. I send IMs, as this is the routine way of getting in touch with someone at Company. He gets invited to project meetings, which he does not attend, and cc’ed on group emails about things in his wheelhouse. I submit expense reports, which he does not approve or reject, they just go to the next layer of management automatically after a certain time period. Nothing. I have not heard a peep in three weeks. I don’t even know where his office is, which doesn’t matter because he’s never there anyway.

    There was a sort of Situation with one of my projects, in that a senior manager at another location was making a bad decision and I wanted to be sure that Senior Manager understood that if he made this decision, here are the costs to the company and the many drawbacks, and that at other sites we have experience with much better technical solutions we’d be delighted to transfer to his site; Senior Managers are rated on various metrics including profit margins, and this bad decision would certainly eat into his profit margin, to the tune of being the least efficient facility in our network. First I contacted Boss, who ignored me as usual. The project PM and technical advisers could not get any traction, and this is a BIG multi-multi million $$ decision, so…I did an end run.

    (This is the part that makes me supremely uncomfortable. Bad politics to do an end run. But I had not heard from Boss at all in ages, and they were trying to lock in the decision.)

    New Grandboss said I’d done an excellent analysis that he had forwarded to the head honchos – he responded via email so I would have this documented, within minutes, while he was on vacation several time zones away. So, OK, I felt a little better about it. The project itself is being reviewed by other senior people, and they’re going to do whatever they do, but at least they are making an informed decision now. We have a third party contract firm verifying my calculations now and the head honchos will be visiting and probably chat with me next week about this and other assorted costing projects that I need to correct for future planning.

    I still have not heard ANYTHING from New Boss. Not a thing. I asked people who previously had New Boss as their boss, and they said this is actually normal for him. The rumor mill indicated that New Boss is not at work during the day except for scheduled meetings, and offline most of the day as well, because he’s busy with his side chick, as apparently this happened a couple of years ago, before I was hired. I don’t actually care what he is doing as long as it doesn’t affect me, but I do need him to like…check his emails, tell me if it’s OK to escalate an issue so I know he isn’t going to be blindsided that he missed an email/IM or something. Maybe ask how projects are going, occasionally? All the deadlines are project-driven and that’s what sets priorities more than anything else, I don’t need him to manage that way, I’d just like help with “you should definitely talk to this person first” or “we did a project similar to that in 2015, the report is in this file” sort of stuff. I can eventually find these things out on my own by talking to other people, it just takes a while and I know he HAS this information.

    Do I…just keep what I’m doing? Get more comfortable with doing end-runs frequently and just deal with knowing this is a weird situation? New Grandboss said I might get re-org’ed again as the New Big Boss figures things out, and this is seeming more likely by the day. The whole thing is making me super uncomfortable. Not uncomfortable enough to quit, it’s just…passing strange.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      Your boss is whatever the opposite of a micromanager is (anti-manager? Non-manager?). It sounds to me like you want some CYA advice/strategies in the event your boss wakes up one day and decides to get annoyed at the way you’re doing things, as you’re not entirely comfortable going above his head. I would send email saying, “this is my analysis, and UNLESS I HEAR DIFFERENTLY from you BY DATE/TIME, I will proceed with XYZ actions.” If he calls you out, you can demonstrate that you attempted to get his input and were ignored.

      1. voyager1*

        Yeah I am onboard on all of what college career counselor wrote.

        Wonder if the guy has just checked out, maybe doesn’t want this role or something.

        1. Wishing You Well*

          A manager at my old work place was gone so often, we started seriously wondering if he had another full-time job elsewhere.
          Document and let Grandboss know what you’re dealing with.

    2. LKW*

      Just keep doing what you’re doing. Keep boss in email and if you need a response – put in the email header – Response needed by date x. In the body outline the consequences of missing the date. when boss doesn’t respond, don’t do an end run – plow straight through. Resend the email with a reminder of the timeline. When he still doesn’t respond resend the resend to boss and this time in the first sentence say “I’m copying grandboss as I have not received responses to my initial and follow up requests.”

      At some point someone will take notice but your ass will be covered.

      1. Lora*

        Thanks you guys. I don’t know if anyone will take notice as by all accounts he’s been doing this for many years, it’s just the first time I’ve encountered someone who REALLY did not care about what I was doing. Usually they are at least concerned that if someone is raising a ruckus with other departments, they want to make sure I am not going to make them look bad, or something? This is just unsettling.

  72. JustaTech*

    Just a rant about “company culture’ surveys.

    If you (senior leadership) are going to do a “company culture” or “pulse” survey, you need to think hard about what you’re going to do with the results *before* you ask people to take the survey. Because if what you’re going to do is berate departments that have questions and concerns, if you’re going to hound them for a year or more over your perception of their “engagement”, then that’s not a good use of anyone’s time or money.
    And if you do choose to make use of your survey results that way, then know that you will never get honest survey results again.
    “I was honest about my small concerns about my department, and senior leadership re-org’d us into oblivion, so I’m not doing that again.”
    If what you (senior leadership) want from your survey is for everyone to cheerfully declare that “everything is awesome” and “CEO is the best ever”, then maybe hire some actors and save everyone the time and humiliation of being asked to lie to sooth the boss’ ego.

    1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      THIS. A couple jobs ago, HR decided to start doing quarterly pulse surveys, and for awhile I was very honest in them about issues that I’d seen but would not, for various reasons, raise with my manager or others directly. After a couple rounds of that, the CEO scolded us in an all-company call that anonymous surveys weren’t the place to raise complaints if we wanted anything done about them, that we should be more open and honest and raise the issues with management. Ummmm….

    2. Ama*

      Heh. Many years ago I worked at a university that asked everyone to take a survey about a potential bike share program. One question invited everyone to estimate what times they thought they “might” need to use a bike — I am guessing many others, like me, gave a very generous estimate including times when they might need to leave early or come in late due to appointments or offsite work events. We then got a nasty all staff email from the senior VP reiterating that administrative offices were to be open 9-5 Monday through Friday and all staff were expected to be at work then. It pissed a ton of people off, since that was NOT what the survey was for and most people were following the wording of the question.

      The following week we got another email touting that we’d been nominated for one of those “Best Places to Work” Awards and were invited to fill out THAT survey. I don’t think it went particularly well for them (in addition to the bike survey disaster they’d also recently announced a wage freeze), as we never heard about how the results of that came out.

    3. WeOuttaHere*

      Our dept. did this a few months ago and I was out on vacay when the survey closed (I hadn’t taken it before I left.) When I came back, boss comes back and says they know one person in our office didn’t take the survey. Soooo I will never take one of those things again. It’s obviously not anonymous.

    4. JustaTech*

      My favorite question was (on a scale of 1-6) “I am a fit for the company culture.”
      What the heck kind of question is that? And which company culture? The flightly sales team? The ridiculously hierarchical manufacturing team? The super chill but also effective operations team?

        1. JustaTech*

          This is the first time we’ve had this specific wording, and the survey isn’t due yet, so I don’t know.

          But I can’t imagine anyone saying “no” because even the least attentive person would go “oh, if I say I don’t fit in, why would they keep me?”

          It’s an actively stupid question.

    7. Windchime*

      My previous company used to do this. They would ask us to take a survey and then the results would never be discussed or distributed. Before I left, they did another “very important” survey, and once again…..crickets. A couple of us banded together to ask about the results, and they claimed that the results couldn’t be distributed because the survey had been constructed wrong. So yeah. I didn’t see the point of surveys at that company. I feel that my current company does a better job of letting us know how the surveys turn out, but I’m under no illusion that anything is anonymous.

  73. JMAK*

    Hello AMA Open Thread fans,

    HAVE I GOT A STORY FOR YOU. This story came to me from a friend who told me his “work husband” got fired.

    “Oh no! Why?”
    “Flatulance.”

    So Buddy has serious intestinal issues that mean he farts, a lot. It’s super embarrassing and he’s working with his doctor to change troubleshoot what may be causing this, including drastic changes to his diet. This was all fine at work until they moved his team from their own private area to an open concept space on a different floor. They shared space with a person I’ll call NotJane.

    NotJane had no time or patience for Office Farts. She complained to Buddy’s Supervisor, who took Buddy aside and asked if everything was okay. It was, except he couldn’t stop farting. Buddy’s Supervisor asked him to please stop but he couldn’t so NotJane took her complaint to Buddy’s GrandBoss who asked him to please stop, and he was TRYING TO STOP but the Farts played on and eventually NotJane took her complaints up 7 levels of management to the COO.

    She did not, however, have a conversation with Buddy. One Friday morning the COO called Buddy to his office, because it has been brought to THEIR attention and Buddy got cranky. He was embarrassed, frustrated and annoyed.
    As he left the meeting with the COO he passed a common area where they have a board for team members to give each other written Shout Outs. On pure, sweet passive-aggressive impulse our Buddy wrote a very sweet shout out to NotJane saying something like

    “Dear NotJane, Thank you so much for demonstrating concern for my health. Really appreciate the support!”

    He was fired within an hour citing a code of conduct breech.

    1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      This is… wow. I am horrified for this poor man. I’m guessing it’s probably too late, but it sounds like this is a medical condition that could have prompted some reasonable accommodation, and I hope that that man does explore his legal options; his manager should have immediately brought in HR when he was informed there was a medical issue at play.

      I hope he finds relief! Or, failing that, a job where he can work from home :D

      1. ...*

        It seems like a private or semi private area would be reasonable for him to work in. I feel horribly for him as no one can understand what it’s like to have a health issue until you have one and you get it. I do get not wanting to work around constant farts, however, so why couldn’t he just have his semi private area back!?

        1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

          Yes! For real. Whatever accommodation he prefers and works best for everyone, absolutely.

    2. Jedi Squirrel*

      That was a passive-aggressive comment, but he was fired because NotJane is a piece of work.

      It sucks for OF, but if I were him I’d be glad to be out of there.

      I do wonder if he has any recompense since they fired him for a medical issue, though.

      2. Windchime*

        I have a little different view of it. It sounds like he was fired for retaliation. NotJane complained (a stupid complaint, to be sure). Buddy knew who complained and he retaliated by calling her out publicly. That seems retaliatory to me, and that’s probably what actually got him fired.

        1. Wheee!*

          I don’t think this is what is normally meant by “retaliation”. Retaliation is when you hinder someone’s ability to work or advance.

          1. pcake*

            Retaliation is when when someone is fired, held back, their job is changed to something unpleasant – anything where the company or boss is getting even with the employee basically.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Is he going to sue them though? That’s a really flimsy thing to fire someone for and if he’s union or is in a region that has strong anti discrimination laws, this would probably make a lawyer want to at least look into it a bit. Getting bullied for a medical issue and then fired for a single “Code of conduct” breech. Unless he was in NotJane’s face and being aggressive, that’s so so flimsy and sounds like retaliation.

    4. Wird*

      Sounds like he could sue them for not accommodating his medical condition, or at least offered him a pair of thick active charcoal chonies.

    7. CheeryO*

      Dude, I’d be lawyering up. My FIL has medical-grade flatulence, and he’s a CEO. He does his best to leave the room before letting one rip, but it’s not always possible, and he’s on doctor’s orders not to hold them in, so… you kind of just have to deal with it.

      1. HR Stoolie*

        This is so unfortunate. Worth talking to a lawyer to to know of the options but no slam-dunk from as much as we know from the OP. Buddy didn’t ask for ADA accommodations and whether entitled to depends on the conversations and responses he had with his employer.
        The note to NotJane was regrettable since it was clear she didn’t have an issue making a stink and taking it upstairs.

    9. gsa*

      I have no realistic advice.

      If change my handle to “office farts” or “flatulence”, please be advised, I am and will always be: gsa

  74. Peaches*

    I had a new coworker text me yesterday and say, “Have you guys celebrated boss’s day here before? It’s next Wednesday the 16th if we want to celebrate!” *face palm*. I happen to be on vacation next Wednesday through Friday, so I just told her I was out of the office, and no, we hadn’t celebrated it before (I actually had never heard of boss’s day before reading AAM!)

    I’m wondering if I should have sent her Alison’s article, or said, “No, and actually it’s not a good idea because of X, Y, and Z.” I’m not sure if she plans to do something while I’m out. She hasn’t mentioned it since then.

    2. Grace*

      The CEO is popping by our office next Wed 16th (company of 50 people, 5 of us in a separate office a couple of hours away), and I don’t think it’s related to Boss’ Day, but even it was, we’re getting expensed dinner and drinks out. Now that’s how you celebrate Boss’ Day – the boss treating the underlings to a nice meal out.

    3. SpellingBee*

      I always reply to that suggestion with “no, because every day is bosses’ day.” Plus the 16th is my birthday, so if anyone is going to be celebrated it’s me!

  75. Project manager*

    Has anyone navigated a job that is good but one that you don’t fit in socially?

    When I started two years ago, I was invited to lunches/drinks but they didn’t go well. I didn’t really hit it off with anyone, and felt like I had nothing in common with anyone. I’ve been promoted and feel like the work is good and my boss treats me well, but I still don’t fit in. It ends in me being excluded from things – there is a committee most are on, but no one thought to invite me. I also am the last to hear things because I socialize the least. The issues are relatively small, but I think they will end up hurting me in the long run. I also feel bad on some level when my coworker is chatting with my boss on a Friday afternoon, but wouldn’t really do that with me.

    As for if I could try harder – the personalities just don’t really mesh. Whenever I’ve tried to share my personal life, it ends up not going well. An example is that I am eloping and doing a non traditional wedding/engagement. I tried to share this and no one really understood and just asked if I was ‘really engaged’ (no diamond ring – we chose a sapphire). Another example is when we bought a condo in the city instead of a house in the suburbs. People tried to like warn me about why it was a bad idea. To be fair, I also don’t like most of my coworkers/boss on a personal level, so it isn’t one-sided. All conversations I think end in people being unintentionally rude to me, because they struggle to understand people who are a little not mainstream. I’ve had 4 jobs, and this is the only job I’ve had this issue.

    I feel like I should look elsewhere, maybe not in the immediate future, but long term. I just hesitate because other jobs I disliked my boss/the work but liked coworkers, and which makes me think I am risking a worse job. Sometimes I think it’s a risk to leave over something like this. Any thoughts?

    1. Anonforthis*

      I worked at a job like this, where I just felt like I did not fit in. I finally made a good friend there who was “a little not mainstream” like me, but she left after a year to move back to her home state, and just having had that taste of having a friend at work made it even harder to go back to not having one. My boss was good and my job was good, and there wasn’t really anyone I actively disliked, but I just.. did not fit in. And that was something I hadn’t dealt with either, despite even working in the same industry prior to that position. Like, my dad died when I was working there, and had been there for three years, and my boss asked about sending out a company wide email.. and I just didn’t want that. In fact, I didn’t tell anyone other than the people I had to when he passed away because I felt so disconnected from everyone there.

      What I can tell you is that I didn’t realize until I got another job how depressing the job made me feel. I didn’t really start actively looking for a new position until after four years, and was being very picky due to the fears of finding a “worse” job and it took me another two years to find another position.. once it clicked that I was SUPER depressed and started widening my net. And whoa, I have a sapphire ring, and my husband and I just went to the courthouse, and we just bought a condo in the city, can we be friends?! But for real, I didn’t realize how insidious the feeling of being “left out” was until after leaving the job and starting at a new one. It’s not like I completely “fit in” here, but I don’t feel completely out of sync with everyone around me.

      1. Project manager*

        I think that’s the part that baffles me the most, that like, I am not that unique at all.

        Thanks for the comment, I definitely agree that it is slowly making me sad. And I just push it away because I don’t think I should be sad over this.

    2. CheeryO*

      That’s really tough. I want to say that most people don’t really “mesh” perfectly with their coworkers, even if they’re friendly on a surface level, but it sounds like you work with some exceptionally close-minded people. It’s possible that the tide might turn over time as new people come in, but I would understand not wanting to wait it out. We’re not robots, and it’s hard to feel like you don’t fit in socially, even if it never impacts your actual work (although I would agree that it may not be good for your professional development in the long run).

      It can never hurt to apply to positions and take interviews – it’s totally possible to have great coworkers AND work that you like, so why not see what’s out there? In the meantime, try to logic your way through it – as long as everyone is happy with your work, you can show up and get by. If someone misses out on your awesomeness because they can’t comprehend choices that are different than their own, that’s 100% on them. You can’t say you didn’t try.

    3. Washi*

      What exactly does it look like when these interactions don’t go well? At my previous job, most of my coworkers were about 30 years older than me and definitely had some pretty different perspectives. I didn’t have an engagement ring at all when I got married, I don’t like talking about diets the way they do, they live in the suburbs while my husband and I live in the more urban core of our area, and they thought it was a bit weird that I’m vegetarian. However, we could still have a good time talking about our lives, doing some light work gossip, exchanging recipes, etc. I’ve only kept in touch with a couple people, but I still have fond memories of many of them.

      Is it at all possible that you’re expecting too much of them? Have you tried to initiate socializing with them? They might both give you dumb advice but also be happy to chat about light topics, and I wonder a little if they’re picking up on some of your discomfort and feeling like you don’t want to talk to them either.

      But if you’ve been able to get along with people very different from you in other jobs, then maybe this one isn’t for you, and it doesn’t hurt to look around and see if there are other options!

    4. Joielle*

      Ha, I know exactly how you feel. A couple jobs ago I was in an environment like this… it was in a small city, and I was commuting from a much bigger nearby city, and that combined with my slightly-not-mainstream life choices was a BIG topic of interest for people. There was a lot of unintentional (and intentional) rudeness, for sure. Personally, I leaned into it. It was kind of funny. Like, I was vegetarian at the time and had a lot of lunch time interactions like this:

      *wrinkled nose* “What are you eating?”
      “Tofu and black beans!”
      “You eat… tofu?” *extra nose wrinkling*
      “Oh, it’s my favorite. I eat it three or four time a week. My boyfriend has the best recipe, I can send it to you if you want! So easy.”
      “No… that’s ok.”
      “Suit yourself!” *big smile*

      Similar interactions regarding my super short hair (“Oh, I’ll send you my stylist’s website, she’s the best!”), sapphire engagement ring (“Diamonds just aren’t me, I prefer a stone with character”), old house (“I just love the wood floors, the construction quality is unbeatable”), living in the city (“There’s so much to do! I’d go stir crazy otherwise”), ad nauseum. Eventually they sort of gave up since it was clear they weren’t getting to me. My boss loved me and that was all that really mattered.

      I did like that job and the comments didn’t really bother me, but it does feel so much more natural being at a different job with people who understand me more.

      1. ...*

        You might accidently offend people by saying you “prefer a stone with character”. I personally love colored stones and diamonds alike, but I would avoid this phrasing because its basically saying “Oh no me, I got something *Different* because I am *sooo different and not like you normies*”. Btw sapphires are the 2nd most popular stone after diamonds, so it really isn’t that unique. Same with “i’d go stir crazy”. People will take that as an insult. Maybe its bc I like in a city and work at a jeweler but if having a condo and a sapphire ring is crazily unique …..then im a circus freak.

        1. Avasarala*

          Yes, I think it’s tricky but important to distinguish your preferences without sh*tting on theirs for being “mainstream.”

  76. WeOuttaHere*

    Just want to share that I am giving my notice today! I am so excited for the next chapter and can’t wait to start healing after a hard year for my mental health.

  77. notQuiteEntryLevel*

    Is it bad to go through an interview process when you strongly suspect they won’t offer a high enough salary?

    I was contacted via LinkedIn by a recruiter for a company local to me. Based on glassdoor, their entry level software devs make 10k less than I did right out of college, and their devs with about my experience make about 10k less than me too. The actual communication/job postings I can find, however, do not list any salaries.

    However, my LinkedIn profile explicitly says, “Open to opportunities but not seriously job searching. Will need [specific salary] to consider leaving my current job”

    I really really don’t expect them to offer a high enough salary to tempt me, but I haven’t interviewed in about 3 years. I’ve been practicing problems/planning interview question answers and such, but it’s obviously not the same. Would it be an a-hole move to go through the application/interview process knowing that it’s very likely that we’re not on the same page salary-wise, knowing that my primary motivator for doing it is practice interviewing/applying?

    1. new kid*

      Absolutely not. That’s the risk they take by not being up front with their salary bands. Take the interview!

    2. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I would say… if they contact you on Linked In, and you have your salary requirements on there, then it’s absolutely fair game to assume they’re willing to hire you at at least that salary. So, if you don’t *really* think they will, but want the practice, I think you’re still in the clear ethically. You have no reason to assume at this point that they won’t make you a reasonable offer (and keep in mind that Glassdoor often under-reports salaries, because people who are unhappy in their jobs are probably more likely to be underpaid and are definitely more likely to post on Glassdoor about it).

      1. sacados*

        Agreed.
        But I would also say that you should throw in a salary question at the end of the interview. You can still get the practice, interview in good faith, and then at the very end when it’s time for your questions you can bring up the salary, say it mentions on your LinkedIn that you’re looking for X range and you just want to make sure you’re in the same ballpark.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s not bad at all.

      But also don’t always go by what Glassdoor has to say, only a few people tend to post there. Ours is pretty skewed and it’s not actually the truth at all given our new leadership in place and evolving pay scales. Lots of times they’re older less experienced employees.

      So you can always try to negotiate the pay rate you are looking for, even if it’s 10k different. If you’re experienced and not-entry level, that’s not unheard of. You just never know how solid those “facts” on Glassdoor are until you sniff around a bit.

      This is a two way street. They can always talk salary early on and weed out people who may have too high of expectations. That’s what we do first thing to make sure we’re on the same level there, since we know it’s a deal breaker! Most decent hiring managers are going to try to save you both time and energy in the end.

  78. Less Bread More Taxes*

    My place of employment is pretty sexist (and it’s academia so it’s bad in multiple ways). Think male employees always asking for hugs, being told that I should give up research because all women become teachers anyway, etc. 

    Anyway, I got an email earlier this week from an outside colleague to myself (20-something woman) and my 40-something female boss, who has 15 years of experience and a PhD, addressing us with “hey girls”. It’s honestly one of the least offensive thing that’s happened since I started here seven months ago, but I just ignored it as the email didn’t warrant a response. My boss has told me today that I need to answer it with some info. She doesn’t mind the sexism – in fact, I’m positive I’m the only woman here who has a problem with anything. And my male bosses are some of the worst offenders in general, so I don’t have anyone to back me up.

    I want to respond saying something simple like “I’m over 18 actually!” or “Boss and I aren’t girls anymore!” but that seems to imply that writing an email starting “hey ladies” is okay when I don’t think it is. In this kind of environment, I’m not even sure if I should address it at all and instead should write a cold-tone email back. What should I do?

    1. WeOuttaHere*

      I’m on my way out of a job in academia so I’m very much in “burn it all down” mode, but I would respond with a little, “My youthful cheer must be shining through…I haven’t been called a girl in a while!” Kind of joking tone, but hopefully they rethink their address.

        1. Jen in Oregon*

          I’d leave off the exclamation point. I think it makes the tone a little too friendly–like a 40 year old that’s a little too happy to be carded and takes it as a compliment.

    2. Mid*

      Could you reply with “Hey boys” or something that’s a similar level of condescending? That’s my usual go to. A coworker called me “sweetheart” a lot, even though it made me uncomfortable, so I started calling him “sugar” back, or “sweetie” or whatever other names I could think of.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        I once had a senior colleague call me “darling,” and I replied in the same friendly tone calling him “sweet cheeks.”

        Probably not a wise move in hindsight, but I did it without stopping to think. Turned out okay, no trouble afterwards. And he never ever did it again.

    3. Overeducated*

      I’d write a somewhat formal email back and find some way to refer to your boss as “Dr. So-and-So” (responding to sexism is one of the few circumstances where I make an effort to highlight rank/credentials). How annoying.

    4. Mobuy*

      Honestly, I don’t think you can fight every battle, and it seems there are other, more important ways to use your capital. (Personally, I don’t really mind being called “girls” too much, but I get that, for you, it’s the final straw.) I’d maybe say something in person and casually if it comes up, but I’d let this one go.

      Now, being told to give up on research, or give hugs? I’d push back on that. Based on my personality, I’d probably say “Your mom’s a teacher!” or something equally mature, but YMMV.

      1. Avasarala*

        Agreed. If I was in an environment with rampant sexism and dudes asking for hugs, I wouldn’t waste my capital on “girls”, but that’s just me.

  79. sideways i.d.*

    eLearning folks and instructional designers – would a certificate from ATD be recognized as something good and worthwhile? I came into the training game sideways and I don’t have a good picture of the industry. I’m considering the ATD certificate in eLearning.

    1. new kid*

      The CPLP is very widely recognized and definitely stands out to employers who actually know what they’re hiring for in L&D. I make that caveat because in the corporate would where I am, L&D is often sort of an ad-hoc role rather than a full department so those in charge of hiring are sometimes much less clear on the specifics of what they’re looking for.

      I think for high level roles, your best bet is still a traditional masters degree. I may be biased because that’s the route I took, but it’s helped my career immensely I think. I’m not quite 10 years into my career – 3rd organization, 2nd director level role.

      1. Lyudie*

        BTW thank you for mentioning this certification, I just moved into this field a couple years ago and though I’m an ATD member, I hadn’t heard of this certification. I think I will go for this when I have enough experience for it.

    2. Training lady*

      It depends on the company, but the trend I’ve seen lately is a move toward mobile learning, gamification, social learning, and even a return to in-person workshops. I’d gear your certificate in that direction and/or opt for something generally applicable and recognizeable, like CPLP, and a course in a development tool (like Articulate 360/Rise). When I took the ATD eLearning Certification it was geared toward traditional eLearning development, but that may have changed in the 6 years since I took it.

      That said, I think any certification from ATD would be beneficial to your career.

      Source: I’m an instructional designer for a Fortune 100 company and was previously a consultant for an ID vendor.

    3. Lyudie*

      It would not hurt but I don’t think it would be as good as a more formal degree (I have an eLearning one myself and am also working on a master’s). They’re pretty well-respected as far as I can tell, so it’s probably worth doing (though not cheap). The one I did was a three-day workshop so while I learned a lot, I don’t think it’ll carry the same weight as a degree in L&D.

  80. Mid*

    How do you deal with someone who is rapidly edging into BEC territory, but who is your peer but senior to you?

    More details: Coworker is not well liked in the office. She doesn’t listen, doesn’t do well with change, and doesn’t seem to actually understand her job, just knows how to make things turn out okay (so her results are fine but you can’t ask her why things are the way they are and she can’t do anything outside of her narrow range of tasks.) She’s also losing her hearing, but refuses to do anything about it so everyone is subjected to 30+ minute long conversations with her doctor, detailing her medical conditions. She’s been asked to take those calls elsewhere, or keep them shorter and less detailed (because the scheduler for the office does not want or need a 25 minute detail of your constipation) If you have to ask her a simple question, you should block off at least 20 minutes of your day while she rambles on and doesn’t answer your question. She is constantly negative about everything. She got mad when she found out I take the stairs instead of the elevator, apparently because it’s unfair of me to do that (not sure why or how it’s unfair, but it was still her complaint.) Every single thing is A Very Big Deal with her and it’s exhausting.

    Coworker and I are the same level, but she’s been here 10+ years and I’ve been here for a month.

    Everyone else in the office deals with Coworker by snapping at her or very aggressively shutting her down, which I can’t do because I’m literally the only person lower on the ladder than her. It sounds mean, but it’s also the only way to get her to listen/stop talking at you. She does not respond to kinder words, gentle hints, even neutral comments. If you’re not louder than her, she will not stop talking.

    I also refuse to be rude to her on principle because she’s clearly a person who is lonely and hurting and o feel terrible for her. Even though she also (loudly and publicly) endorses some very hateful political views.

    So how can I handle working with someone who doesn’t respond to normal “I need to get back to working” unless you snap at her, without actually snapping at her?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Pity her. That’s how I keep myself from destroying others, take pity on them. You know that she’s lonely and hurting, so you are on the right track! So I’d use this as an exercise for yourself to keep your own standards of how you treat others high and in tact. Don’t sink to the other’s levels.

      People who are loudly ugly, I just assume they don’t know better and they aren’t willing or able to learn differently. It’s not our place to change that kind of person, since it’s impossible. Just say to yourself “Dang it must suck to hate everyone so much, what a sad creature.” Imagine her as a hurt animal, who when they’re wounded will try to attack their rescuers. Then go into “Bless her heart” stages in your head.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Are your coworkers really being rude or are they being assertive? Confrontation/assertiveness will make sensitive types cringe, but these techniques might be necessary for your coworkers to get back to work. (You could be right, though. Maybe they’re plain rude.)
      You will have to find a technique that gets you back on the job. The Man, Becky Lynch has great advice. I would add I think Coworker is on some neurological spectrum. That thought helps me deal with people who are acting outside the norms.
      In the meantime, you have a management problem. If she’s as bad as you describe, management should have let her go a long time ago.
      I hope things get better for you.

      1. Mid*

        No, it’s fully crossed the line to rude. Like the words “For the love of God, please shut up” left someones mouth earlier. But, they don’t like having to be so harsh either, but it’s the only thing that gets through Coworker’s head.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      Go right up to the edge. Say, “It was nice talking to you. I’m going to go back to work now.” and then walk away. If she’s at your desk, go to the bathroom. Use words and then use your body. If she follows you, then go ahead and snap and say, “No, really, this topic is closed.”

  81. Academia work*

    I don’t know if this counts as work? I’m posting on behalf of my partner. He is a full time PhD student and his lab environment is…toxic to say the least. It’s like a bad movie. A senior student sabotaged a second year’s project because they wanted to publish first, the PI won’t address it because the student produces good work, the other professors in the department know about the dysfunction in this lab group but are unsure what to do… etc. It just keeps going on.

    My partner is exhausted and miserable and feels unsupported to say the least. He is considering just leaving with his masters. He already worked in industry for 3 years before pursuing his PhD (chemistry) and knows that the PhD would open up better jobs for him, but so would a masters too, just not on the same pay scale. Is it taboo to get your masters out of your PhD program and later on pursue a PhD at another university down the line? His PI made it seem that way when he told her he thought about leaving with his masters (but I’m sure she doesn’t want him to leave, she is really wanting him to go into academia even though he’s interested in industry.) Any PhD folks out there with this dilemma?

    1. Gidget*

      I mastered out of my PhD program. It was the right choice because my PI was not great at being a mentor and sometimes you have to take the loss and recognize it’s not you. There is an immense bias in academia towards continuing in academia because honestly it’s what the PI knows. Rarely have they experienced industry or policy work, both of which can be done without a PhD.

      I think it depends what your SO wants to do next. If they were already working in industry they should be able to back. If they want to pursue academia then they will have to eventually get a PhD, but even with that it’s really difficult to stay in academics, because we are just overproducing PhDs. And in some cases a PhD comes across as overqualified. I know many Postdocs who eventually end up in industry anyway because it pays much better and they can’t find long term academic research positions.

      I ended up doing fine with my Masters. I make more than I expected to right out of my program (though I don’t love my work) and I think it gives me extra perspective on things that I wouldn’t have had otherwise. I don’t think it’s taboo to go back for a PhD later, and I am likely going to try again, but more thoroughly vet my PI/Mentor and the school culture as a whole.

      One other thought. If the PI really isn’t going to address it, then it’s not going to change. If the university has an academic honesty policy, sabotaging another person’s research is definitely a violation of that policy and could easily be reported to the academic honesty board (I have seen grad students be reported to such boards for research integrity issues). Depending on the funding source, there may also be avenues for reporting such misconduct as sabotage. These are both very scorched earth policies, but if it continues it might be worth starting a discrete conversation with a research integrity officer. The school ombudsman is also another option. They can server as a mediator.

      Sorry that was a lot tl;dr the verdict is really what does your SO want to do. If they want to be a professor at an R1 university they need that PhD, otherwise they are likely to find many other opportunities.

    2. Reba*

      My personal experience is not in the sciences but… exiting with the MA happens a lot! Quitting at ABD stage happens a lot! Changing schools or research groups between MA and PhD happens!

      If the supervisor will not be helpful with getting into the other program (by providing a letter of rec), that could be a problem. Unfortunately, many students do have to hide their intentions (to leave, to go into industry) from their short-sighted advisers to retain their support, and it sounds like your partner may need to limit what they tell this supervisor. But not all advisers are like this!

      I think with grad school it’s good to remember that quitting is an option. This is voluntary.

      Good luck to your partner and you!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Absolutely normal, with or without a toxic lab environment. I left a PhD track program in a great environment with a masters (but came back 3 years later). If I’d stayed, my advisor suggested I consider switching to a different department more aligned with my interests at the time, but he was also happy to keep me and when I came back it was to his lab.

        Several other colleagues followed their advisors to new universities and finished degrees there. Others changed advisors within the department. It happens pretty often and would not be seen as a problem or betrayal except by an extremely bad advisor.

    3. YetAnotherUsername*

      If he can leave with his masters that’s great, but at least in my field he would have to go back to square one for a future PhD. You couldn’t start partway in. The research would have moved on anyway so it wouldn’t be possible to turn a eg 5 year old masters research project into a PhD. It would be out of date.

      So if he wants the PhD in the long run he needs to have a plan for that.

      Maybe it’s different in his field though.

      1. Fikly*

        This is true in almost all fields if you switch schools. They won’t count your classes toward their own degree.

    4. Sherm*

      A toxic academic chemistry lab? Who would have thought? /s

      If industry remains his goal (because academia is so competitive that one “blemish” will sink your chances for a professorship), this is do-able. He might not get into every PhD program in the future, but many places will not mind about mastering out in the past and may even welcome that he has some experience under his belt. YetAnotherUser is right, though, that he may have to start from scratch. He might even not be able to transfer class credit in the new PhD program, but in chemistry there’s often not many classes to be taken. They want you in the lab.

    5. NotAPirate*

      If you can master out (also make very polite excuses to current PI, you appreciate the opportunity but you just couldn’t say no to this job, or we had family expenses/health expenses that make it impossible for me to continue at this time, so everyone saves face because vengeful PIs can haunt you and you need that reference even informally as PI may talk to others in your field) you can always come back later. It’s extremely common.

      It’s easiest to come back to the same university, talk to the departmental advisor (not the PI), a lot of times they will allow you to come back whenever and keep your credits. It’s a little more tricky if you are going to a different university, credits might not line up well. Usually entering phd students without a masters need X credit hours and students with a masters need X-40. So your partner would have that leg up at least.

      Ask your partner to feel out options for switching PIs instead of mastering out too. The gentle way is to add a co-advisor and then focus your project in that lab entirely. But plenty of people do switch labs and drop their PI for a new one. Personality conflicts are usually cited as the cause, or funding, or a project just not working. It does reset your dissertation project though.

      Good luck! Tell your partner to take time for something silly now and then too, it makes a world of difference on your mental health.

    6. Dr. Anonymous*

      A colleague’s daughter mastered out of an equally dysfunctional chemistry program, got her PhD at another university, and got a full time faculty position at a decent school after (about 18 years ago, though, when there still were some of those to go round.) Sure, she had to start over to an extent, but totally worth it.

      Her advisor had failed to achieve tenure and after a semester of crickets when she asked the department about what would happen to her, she ran for the hills. The department belatedly realized they had no one to run the departing advisor’s fully-funded grant project and tried to get her to stay and also asked her if the advisor had other advisees. Because they didn’t know.

  82. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    Dunno if this is a question or not but.
    I just started a relationship (yay!) with a person who’s non-binary, and I work in a conservative religious academic environment. I’m super new to relationship in general (I’m a very late bloomer :/ ) and so am, in general, figuring out norms of chit chat about significant others in the workplace (I’m normally a fairly private person but there’s definitely a part of me that wants to be asked what I did last weekend so I can go “I went apple picking WITH MY SUPER AMAZING PARTNER”), and then on top of that…how do I talk about them to my co-workers. There’s going to be the assumption that if I have a SO it’s a boyfriend, I imagine about half my co-workers would be at least ok-ish with same sex relationships, but I think even most of them are gonna be on some spectrum of confused/dismissive/hostile about nonbinary people and using they/them pronouns.
    And I have no idea if there would be material consequences to my job. Probably not, but you never know?
    (additional info: while I’m not going to specify the religion, it’s not a christian institution; I was raised Christian and feel like I would have a better idea how people might react if it was. And, I’m not a member of this religion.)

    1. chizuk*

      How out is your partner? If they’re out to you/friends/family, but might not be out to the wilder world? Definitely talk to them about how they want you to talk about them.

      But in general, you can’t really go wrong with “we”. As in “oh we went apple picking this weekend and had a great time, Partner’s Name got so many apples”.

    2. Ex-libris*

      I work at a conservative religious institution (in an admittedly progressive liberal department – the library) and refer to my hetero cis partner as “my partner” the most regularly. I also sometimes admittedly use husband and boyfriend interchangeably because we’re loosey-goosey with labels and tend to go with whatever feels the most accurate in the moment. I have a good close younger friend who also works in our field that I quasi-mentor (so they come up from time to time) and use they/them for, no one seems at all phased. I think if you plow ahead as if it’s totally normal and feel confident about it, most people will just go with it.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      How much do your coworkers talk about their relationships? You’re excited about a new relationship and want to talk about it and my guess is that it is more professional to err on the side of saying less than you want to at the moment.

      My partner is non-binary, but I’m navigating a somewhat different set of dynamics — my workplace sounds relatively more tolerant than yours; also I’ve been in this relationship for the duration of my time at this employer, and people tend to talk about their out-of-work lives regularly often. In any case, I generally say “my partner,” (as in “my partner and I went apple picking”), or I just say “I” or “we” (as in,”oh, I’m/we’re going apple picking this weekend).

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Just to clarify — more professional separate and unrelated from people’s gender intolerance.

      2. Ex-libris*

        Yes, this is a good point too. Half the reason I say “my partner” is because I talk about them infrequently enough that I don’t assume my colleagues even remember their name! But we’re not a chatty bunch, we all have fairly isolated computer work.

  83. E*

    My job is to basically keep up conversations with outside groups/individuals interested in our program. I respond to info requests all the time. Why did my direct supervisor literally just forward me an inquiry from a community member with the instruction to “please respond.” Did she think I was going to just be like, “That’s cool this person wants info,” and then just not contact them. Honestly. So much irritation at the micromanaging.

    1. Living with my mistakes!!*

      Haha it’s funny how those little things are so irritating! Though likely it stems from some other problems with work. It’s easy to let stuff like that slide when everything else is generally good but if its not everything else will become an annoyance.

    2. designbot*

      They probably just thought that forwarding with no additional text was too abrupt and didn’t know what else to say.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I would almost never forward anything without adding a comment. It’s not about micromanaging, it’s about avoiding the silent command. Is it possible that’s what your boss is doing, E?

        1. E*

          Maybe. I totally get this was a minor issue, I am just annoyed because it’s a pattern– telling me to do things I am already doing and have had no complaints or feedback about.

          1. JustaTech*

            Since its a pattern, does your boss not have good visibility on what you’re doing? Would providing them some kind of end-of-week metrics like “answered 50% of info requests within 10 minutes, and 98% within one hour”, help?

            That way you’re not telling them “I got this”, you’re *showing* them “I’ve totally got this”.

      2. SarahKay*

        I’d agree with designbot, I think your supervisor just felt rude forwarding it with no additional message, but had more emails to get to so kept it short. And for what it’s worth, they didn’t tell you how to respond, or details of what you should include, which would be (IMO) far more micro-manager-y.

        1. E*

          Fair point, I wasn’t told exactly what to say, it was just an annoyance to add to the many annoying things about this job.

      4. E*

        There was additional text. And I am regularly forwarded things to respond to by them. It was just the specific sentence “Please respond.” that irritated me.

  84. R*

    How long does one wait for a promotion?

    I came back from maternity leave 2 years ago – my time away was used as an opportunity to take one part of my job away, and I was promised growth in another area. Which was fine. The goal of my immediate boss was always that this second area would ultimately become my own entirely (and he could wash his hands of it). In recent months, my bosses boss has been taking more of an interest in what I do, and my immediate boss has given me great autonomy, which I appreciate. The feedback I’ve gotten was to be a better business partner for my internal customers, which I think I’ve shown some improvement in. Not perfect yet though.

    So the question is- how long do I, for all intents and purposes, act as though the promotion already happened, even though it hasn’t? It feels a lot like they want me to be perfect and meet a slightly unachievable standard and then they will graciously give me the promotion. Do I ask what else they want from me? Look for a new job and use that as a bargaining chip? I don’t really want to leave this company, I like the people, the vision etc. etc. But it does feel a bit silly at this point!

    1. designbot*

      I think I’d try to find an opportunity to say something like hey, it feels like my job has changed recently and I really appreciate the opportunity. What would it take to formalize that into a move to (new role title)?
      That opportunity might be an annual review, or even just a 1 on 1 that doesn’t feel particularly urgent. I do a lot of this kind of thing while travelling with management.

      1. R*

        Thanks, that’s helpful! I would rather not wait until annual review season, but I might need to be patient until then. Everyone is very busy right now, and I don’t want to sound out of touch by raising this small (to them) issue when there are other things going on.

        1. designbot*

          Then I’d try to bring it up minimum 2 months ahead of your review, to frame it as wanting to make sure you’ve checked all the boxes/are positioned well so that when reviews come around it’s ready to be a done deal.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Ask your boss about your promotion now. I think looking for a new job as a bargaining chip isn’t what AAM would recommend. (It could backfire.) If you find the promotion is never coming or being delayed much further, job hunting with the intent of leaving is an option.
      I hope you get that promotion!

  85. Living with my mistakes!!*

    I’ve had a rough week! I was so proud of myself for finding a job having used everything I learned from AAM. I had negotiated my pay, asked questions about the culture, tried to understand what was expected of me, and finally resigned with my current employer at the time. But I also made some foolish mistakes.

    1. When I asked for a email confirming everything we had discussed such as pay, it was delayed.
    2. Though I requested they wait 2 weeks for me to start, so I can give my employer standard notice-they pushed I start the following week.
    3. I spoke with my boss and resigned taking the employer on good faith that they will up hold their side.
    4. This was a position that I had interviewed for a couple of months back and was rejected for, so when I was emailed about a potential opportunity I was really excited. I tried not to focus too much on why the first person didn’t work out and was simply told they were fired.

    After I resigned from my role – I call to let them know that I worked out a way for me to start the following week only to find out that it will for a few dollars less hourly. What could I say? I had already quit. Then I get the email that should confirm what was discussed and it didn’t really match our discussion!! Finally on about the 5th day at this new job my boss flips out and yells at me and is so demeaning that after I left I just had to cry. It was all very upsetting, getting a chance at what I thought was a better job, higher pay, good environment, only to find out none of it was. I know this is partially my fault. I was so desperate to leave one employer that I jumped right into a worse one. Oh, and now I have no job and have to start from scratch. I’m trying to look at this from a positive side and now I have a lot of free time to apply to other roles.

    Anyways – just needed a little vent.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I’m sorry–it’s really hard to put all that work in and have things still go awry. I hope things will go better next time!

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        Same. Don’t beat yourself up over this – sometimes really crappy things happen. Moving forward, try not to job search from a place of desperation (I know that’s going to be much harder now as it sounds like you quit this job?) – when you do that, you’re less likely to pay attention to red flags during the interview process because you just want a new job by any means. Instead, anytime you feel like you’re falling out of love (or strong like) with whatever you’re doing (or your boss, or your environment, etc.), start looking. You don’t have to accept any new offers, but you’ll be more focused on seeing not just how well you could do the theoretical new job, but also how that new job would suit you and you’ll make better, more informed decisions.

    2. YetAnotherUsername*

      I’m so sorry that happened to you. I think everyone gets badly screwed over by an employer at some point in their lives. I had a similar experience where I quit a job, worked one day and then was told there was no job for me (not because of any performance concerns just because they found someone who could do more hours). I never got paid for that day either. Another time I worked 4 weeks before being told my rate was going to be less than I had been told in my monthly pay packet. Yet another time I worked 4 hours before being told I didn’t have enough experience (I had been 100% upfront that I had never done the job before). Never got paid for that either.

      Basically some people are just complete scum who will prey on naieve young people. (this was all when I was in my teens / early 20s).

      The last job I got I was very very straight that I would not hand in my notice until I received a signed contract and other information we had agreed in writing. If they are above board they will be happy to give you the info in writing.

    3. juliebulie*

      It is not your fault. They asked too much of you (giving only 1 week’s notice) and didn’t follow through on pay. Don’t accept the blame for this. They definitely misled you and took advantage of your enthusiasm.

  86. Ruth (UK)*

    I’ve been offered a new job! It’s internal in my company, a different department, and a higher level / more money etc. I’m in a largely administrative role in a university. I’m quite excited/happy etc but also experiencing a bit of worry/anxiety over leaving my current department where I’ve been for two years and also have a good relationship with all my colleagues etc. However, the role I’m leaving is very entry level (I’m in my 20s) and is often referred to as a ‘stepping stone’ so I guess it’s good to be moving on ..

  87. Impostor depression*

    I am very depressed about my job prospects. I’ve been at my current job for five years and I see no opportunity to be promoted and more importantly, to get a significant raise. I’ve worked hard in my five years, streamlining processes, partnering with other departments, learning new skills. In fact, a year after I started, my manager left and the company did not replace him. I picked up some of the tasks she was doing, my new manager took over the budgeting, and I’m not really sure what he was doing. He was kind of a disorganized idiot and my manager has complimented many times on how much smoother everything is running now that I’m running the show.

    I feel like I’ve left money on the table by not pushing for a raise or promotion after his departure. I tried bringing it up a few times but I get emotional and it’s easier not to say anything.

    I’ve started job hunting but it’s hard. I have experience with help desk, learning management systems, creating e-learning courses, recording and editing videos, but I don’t really have any specialized knowledge. I’d like to stay in training in some capacity but my degree is not education-based. I know I’m smart, I know I have strong technical skills, I know I’ll work hard but I feel like companies will always hold out for a better candidate.

    Any advice from those in learning and development as to what I can do to be a stronger candidate? Or if I stay in my current job, how to push for a raise without having massive impostor syndrome?

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      Is there any way you can reach out to people who do work like what you do and find out what their title and pay are? Whether in your organization or outside it, this might give you a better idea of your value in the workplace–and ammunition to ask for a raise and/or promotion! If you can go to your new manager and say “People at ABC company and Teapots, Inc. who are doing tasks X, Y, and Z typically have a title of Senior Wizard, rather than Junior Wizard, according to my research, and they average $75K per year. I’m doing all those things, but am still getting paid $68K as a Junior Wizard. Is there something the company can do to bring my position and salary in line with the market?” it carries more weight. Reach out to your network, and to professional organizations if that’s relevant. Good luck!

    2. BeeGee*

      I feel you, I feel like I am in a similar place, but unfortunately, I got laid off from a small company that had to downsize so I’m unemployed at the moment.

      I’m at a place where I am realizing I just need to get a masters degree or notable certification (making sure its from a recognized, respected organization for the field and not something flimsy) to get better recognition from employers. I feel that like you, I was working with two small organizations where I had to learn a lot quickly, pick up a lot of tasks, implement and onboard new systems, which I believe I have developed robust skills and tenacity from doing so. However, it’s often hard to reflect that on paper or to potential employers, who often look at your experience as “so what” because you don’t have experience with a recognizable employer or a title change. But again, this is just from experience in my field, which could be completely different given your skill set and field. Good luck, and keep at it!

  88. Dice to Meet You*

    Does anyone have any good resources for job hunting in more creative oriented careers? So much of the advice on here is applicable and extremely helpful, but I’d love more focused advice on certain topics (when does a resume cross over from too designed into garish? portfolio site layout best practices? etc) and if there’s an Ask a Manager level site out there for artists/designers I’d love to know about it. My workplace is breeding red flags and I’m looking for all the help I can get to get out!

    1. Arts Akimbo*

      If you haven’t yet, check out the Drawn + Drafted site. Their focus is teaching business skills to artists, and you’ll find some great tools there. (Full disclosure: run by friends of mine so I’m not completely impartial.) Good luck in finding greener pastures!

      http://www.drawnanddrafted.com

  89. Kali*

    I’ve started applying for PhDs! Any tips? I’ll have a first class genetics MSci by the end of the year, and I’m interested in paleobiology, though my masters project is using bioinformatics to annotate novel micro RNA. I have an Ask-a-Manager inspired CV – lots of ‘successful’ this and ‘achieved’ that and quoting my best grades where relevant. I’m specific to England and Wales because my partner finishes his law degree this year and that’s where he’s qualified to work.

    1. YetAnotherUsername*

      I did my PhD in Ireland which is more like the UK than the US, though there are probably some differences.
      Some things to do your research on (in order of importance IMO):
      1 scholarships that are open to you. Not all scholarships are created equal. I knew I would be able to get pretty much any scholarship so I did my research and picked the best one available at the time (it was specific to Ireland). It had a high tax free stipend, some money available for project expenses and it allowed me to work 6 hours a week in my field (I lecturered undergrads) plus I was allowed to do unrelated work on weekends if I wanted (which I did a little). All in I was coming out with more money than my full time employed partner. I knew a lot of postgrads who were earning a lot less than half what I was. Some PhD programs come with funding, some you might have to apply for an external scholarship. If you think you can get a scholarship you can afford to be a lot more picky.
      2 pick a good supervisor. Look into the best universities in your field in England and Wales, and identify at least one supervisor in each. What’s really good about academia is most professors have a web page on the university site and everyone’s publications and so on are all there, so it’s really really easy to identify someone who has a strong track record of research in your field, and has supervised a lot of phds. Plus they all have their areas of interest listed right there on the page. Identify people to talk to, and see if they have ongoing funded research in the field you are interested in, or even if it’s not funded but you are interested in the area (see point 1). Then talk to them. Email and tell them you are looking to start a PhD in x area, you have your masters in y, and you will be moving to the country on (date), and would they be free any time to talk on the phone. Academia is very different to the work world and this type of “gumption” still makes sense there (I think – I finished my PhD 12 years ago and I don’t believe it has changed that much.) Though that depends on your cv to a certain extent (I had an undergrad scholarship which is pretty prestigious so that might have opened some doors for me so ymmv). When you talk to them ask questions like how much interaction they will have with you. Ideally I wanted about an hour every week and I wanted someone I felt I could work well with. Also ask about how many phds they have supervised and how long they tend to take.
      3 pick an area you are interested in. You will be spending a LOT of time on this, mostly self directed. You need to care about it.

      Good luck.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      In my experience (hard science PhD) the supervisor will make or break your PhD. Ideally you want someone who is well regarded in their field (ie, has strong connections, which will be a big asset in getting a good project and a postdoc), is genuinely interested and active in nurturing their students’ careers, is supportive when difficulties arise (in and out of the lab) and, very, very, very importantly, is not a power hungry asshole, flaming misogynist, ivory tower recluse who thinks it’s still the 60s, or the kind of supervisor who works well with people just like him but absolutely nobody else. Talk to other students in the program (verbally, ideally over drinks) to get their opinions, and pay attention to how many students they’ve graduated, what they did after their degree, and their demographics.

      Good funding is important. For the UK type PhDs, you want to be joining a well established, well defined project (because you’ve only got three years to do the research and write up, so you need to hit the ground running).

    3. Rocket Surgery*

      Concur with folks above. Very important to find an advisor who will look out for your interests.

  90. Narvo Flieboppen*

    I’ve not had much to report lately, things have been… not quiet, but just normally stressful and not so weird? But this week, I’m having issues with a tech from our Help(less) Desk.

    This tech has failed 5 times in a row at properly setting up new PCs for my team. We have a non-standard build due to the variety of cross-department processes in which we participate and/or need for reporting. Accounting departments are weird like that. My new PC, which he rolled out to me this week, requires software that is nominally ‘only for’ several other departments. Despite them being marked on the request list, he didn’t install them. When I asked why, he specified each one was ‘only for X department’ and so I didn’t need it. Also, he told me I don’t need Adobe Pro ‘because Reader is just as good’. Not for building PDFs, making them form fillable, redacting documents, and managing electronic contracts which I only do on a daily basis. After 2 days of him declining and insisting I don’t need these things, I finally got them. I had to map my network drives myself, since he couldn’t be bothered to do it, and refused after I pointed out they were all listed on the initial request. Fortunately for me, I know all of the server names and paths off the top of my head. Which is not something most end users can say.

    After all that, I ran into a weird error that derailed 2 of my daily processes. After a lot of research, his solution was ‘I don’t know how to fix it, you’ll have to find a work around.’ I did my own research, and found what looked like a fix, based on the error codes and cross platform failures which appear separate at first, but were in fact linked by single behind the scenes process which was causing the problem.

    I compiled all the info, with reference links, into an email and asked the tech to run the fix, since it requires admin access to run the utility. Rather than trying it, he spent more time telling me how I’m wrong and this fix doesn’t apply to my issue. He knew this because he’s an IT professional with years of experience and this is not the problem (his words.) While he does have more experience, I’m not a standard end user – I used to work Help Desk (I’m no longer in IT, of course), and since he didn’t have any actual solution trying mine should be better than nothing because at worst it leaves where I was to start. Also, based on my own experiences, I’m really a far better troubleshooter than this guy. I didn’t say it, I wouldn’t expect him to say it, but I would like at least a little respect for my abilities especially when the other party has, literally, nothing better to offer.

    I had to set up the entire problem fix and then have him remote in to enter the admin user ID/password to let it run. If I didn’t have the background to set this up myself, the fix never would have happened. After he entered the password, he had the gall to say ‘See, didn’t work’ immediately without even waiting for the utility to finish running. At which point I demonstrated it did resolve the issue. He closed the ticket as successful with the write up of the entire solution that was literally a copy paste from my email, but with my name removed. Fecking jerk.

    At this point, I a lot of emotion tied up in this guy either being completely incompetent or competent and just unwilling to actually do his job. I have a friend in another department who I learned also needs software to do a chunk of her job, but this same tech told her we were out of licenses and so she’s been pushing that piece of her job onto her coworkers for nearly 5 months because he wouldn’t install it for her. And their department just took him at his word rather than push back.

    If we’re having these troubles with him, I find it hard to believe that he’s not shirking/screwing up stuff for a bunch of other people and this really should be highlighted. The problem being, every time I write up an email to the head of IT about it, I can hear the tone from a mile away. So, any suggestions on how I word a complaint to the head of IT without letting my anger/irritation show?

    1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Honestly, if you can have your manager (or other higher-up) submit the complaint, that would help. Frame it as “this help desk person has been a direct impediment to our team getting our work done, and I can’t keep fixing these issues on my own, this isn’t what you’re paying me to do. This needs to change, and I know they’ll take it more seriously coming from you.” Write up a paragraph each on maybe 3 examples (as short and to-the-point) as possible, anticipating that this person may well copy/paste your wording (or might just forward the entire email to the head of IT). Getting someone else in your corner with a little more power has helped me in the past with this kind of thing. Ultimately, if he’s being told by his boss that these software licenses only go to these employees, and that mapping is wrong, the change will need to come from his management anyway, or you’ll keep running into the problem over and over again.

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        Yeah, on this issue my manager already told me I should issue the complaint because I was the one affected. Boss isn’t really tech savvy, so I think he feels out of his element dealing with this particular topic (even though service is the real problem!)

        It isn’t his management telling him not to install things. The policy, which I helped write and approve, is that if we’re out of assigned licenses and it is required for job duties, then IT will buy a new one. If it is a nicety, but not a requirement, then the department making the request covers the cost out of their budget. There is no policy of ‘no license, none for you!’ Given my friend’s work encompasses about 60% of our revenue stream (literally tens of millions of dollars), I’d rather expect management would be bending over backward to make her job easier and not blink at $150 software license cost.

        I’m going to do a write up and bring it to my PM meeting with Boss to push the issue again, see if I get a different result.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      List the dry facts. I submitted these requests, and he told me I didn’t need it, had to call back x times.
      these things didn’t work, declined to fix it. I found this fix, he declined to run it.
      I spent X hours troubleshooting my new workstation because of this.
      Ask to have your requests escalated to a higher tier and ask to have a different tech assigned to your area.

      I think as long as you confine yourself to facts and refrain from using words like “jackass”, it’s okay if your irritation shows.

      Also let your colleague know about the policy and where you are sending your complaint so she can send one, too.

  91. OnTheEdge*

    I’m at a really weird point with my role and I’d love to hear anyone’s tips about networking for a new job and avoiding burnout.

    My company has gone through a series of layoffs this year and I’ve been given reason to believe I could be let go in the next 6 months. I was well acquainted with a Business Development team member who was laid off a few months ago. She is well connected within our industry, and landed another (executive) job almost immediately. I checked her LinkedIn connections, and she knows people at every firm I’d like to potentially transfer to, even though a similar role to my current one isn’t posted on their site.

    I’m getting so burnt out with constantly applying to jobs online that seem to go nowhere. Is there a way to contact this person and ask her to look at my resume? Should I ask her for general networking tips? Should I fill out the “general application” form for some of these other firms?

    1. alligator aviator autopilot antimatter*

      I’m at a very similar place in my current job and career, so I totally sympathize. Definitely reach out to her! You could let her know that you’re seeking a new position and ask whether she knows of anything coming up that you would be a good fit for. Start a conversation and see where it goes. :)

      1. CM*

        Agreed, get in touch with her! Just say that as she knows, the company has gone through a series of layoffs and you’re looking around for other opportunities. You could also ask if she would be up for giving you some advice over coffee or a phone call. If you could talk to her instead of just emailing, you could explain your situation and there’s a specific job you have in mind where she has contacts, you could ask her advice about getting them to look at your resume.

  92. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    Once again, a workplace-related transition question from Boochie, because hoo boy am I devoted to seeing exactly how masc I can get in the office without anyone saying anything.

    This time: clothing. I am actively losing weight, so investing a ton of money into clothes right now is not something I particularly want to do. However, I am angling to move to a different job within my firm. So I’m thinking ahead to potential interviews, and how I can best dress for them.

    I own one women’s suit that doesn’t quite fit, but is passable in a pinch. (But it is a women’s suit, not a men’s suit.) I do not own a men’s blazer, and given my build, I would probably have to splash out a bunch of money to have one custom made. The most formal work outfit I can pull together right now that 100% fits properly is slacks, dress shirt, tie, sweater vest, all in restrained conservative colors.

    Would this be direly underdressed for an internal interview at a high-end-of-business-casual finance firm? Do I need to go ahead and take the plunge on getting a blazer made — or more expensive yet, an entire suit? The suit will eventually happen anyway, but putting down that kind of money when my size is in the process of radically changing makes me squeamish; I’d rather wait until I’ve settled at a new weight before doing that.

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      The most formal work outfit I can pull together right now that 100% fits properly is slacks, dress shirt, tie, sweater vest, all in restrained conservative colors. Would this be direly underdressed for an internal interview at a high-end-of-business-casual finance firm?

      Are folks in the leadership roles generally wearing blazers to work? My instinct is that yes, this is underdressed.

      Could you find a blazer that fits in a thrift store? I’m not sure how much budget feels comfortable, but I was just seeing someone praise Uniqlo for their options during transition. Or — if it is really business casual, a jersey knit blazer might pass as formal enough but fit more comfortably.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Unfortunately, that’s also my instinct. Day to day wear for our immediate leadership tends to be oxford or dress shirts and occasionally blazers or sport coats, but no ties. The tie+sweater vest is on the very dressy end of everyday wear for people at my level or the level immediately up.

        Unfortunately, I’m hard enough to fit in menswear that I’m not inclined to buy anything online unless I know I can try it on first. Jersey knit is probably going to be my friend if I can find something along those lines in person — whatever it loses in formality, it gains in a less awkward fit.

        1. Lilysparrow*

          Have you looked in the boys’ section? Blazers for teen boys tend to be nearly identical to menswear, but cut slimmer as well as shorter. There’s often a good selection of barely-used ones at thrift stores, because they were bought for a special occasion and not worn regularly.

        2. Llama Wrangler*

          Besides the big department stores, maybe try old navy if there’s one near you? That’s where I’ve seen jersey knit blazers besides uniqlo. And they have an ok size range.

    2. Just Elle*

      I gotta tell you, it has always, always paid off for me to go ahead and spend the money on the outfit I feel confident is right for the interview. Its not that you *couldnt* get away with the other outfit (you know better than any of us). Its that confidence is really important in an interview, and you will feel much more confident in an outfit that (1) fits and (2) definitely matches the formality required. For you, I’d also add (3) makes you feel the most like yourself (which might rule out women’s blazers entirely).

      PS – when I was in the middle of a weight loss situation, I rented clothes from Rent the Runway for formal events. They have suiting as well. I know you said your build probably requires a custom fit, which is probably not worth it in this situation… but some of the higher end /designer RTR clothes are a little more gender fluid than your average department store, obviously depending on how that sits with you.

      You could also have the women’s blazer taken in at a tailor, if you are up for wearing it.

    3. avid bee*

      Obviously a custom-made suit would be the safest option but I completely understand not wanting to shell out for one until you’re relatively certain your size will be stable. Have you considered getting a men’s blazer from a department store or somewhere and then getting it altered to fit your build? I know that has worked well in a pinch for some. All that said, given that you’re an internal candidate I would consider that to mean the team already has some knowledge of you and your professionalism, and a slight misstep in interview clothing is more likely to be overlooked if they notice at all.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I should probably get over my nerves and at least check in with the local Mens Wearhouse or whatever if the alterations I’d need can be done aftermarket. My concern is between hips (wide) and ribcage/shoulders (narrow), I’d essentially need them to take an enormous blazer and take it in tremendously just about everywhere, especially in areas that tend to be pretty structured.

        1. valentine*

          Just Elle makes a great point about confidence. I also think it’d work if you find a jacket the same color as trousers you already have, which is probably easier with a charcoal than with black. But, yes, go for the jacket or a suit.

        2. juliebulie*

          Do it.. do it… do it…

          Because if this works out, you’ll then have a resource you can count on in case you need something like this again.

          Another alternative is to get something used and have it altered at a dry cleaners. That might be cheaper. (I didn’t know you could get tailoring services at the dry cleaners till I was almost 40. I’ll never hem a damned thing ever again.)

        3. Dr. Anonymous*

          Call some local tailors about alterations instead. Men’s Wearhouse will probably just put big, fat shoulder pads in to make it look like the suit kinda fits. You want someone to take the sleeves out and move the shoulders in and re-set the sleeves. It costs money but less than a new suit.

  93. Anonymous and Angry*

    A month ago, my mother died. I took time off work for the funeral and a couple days for bereavement leave, but then came back and have been working steadily since. Most of my co-workers have been sympathetic and supportive.

    One of them, however…I wish she would just STFU. She keeps going on and on about how she didn’t take as many days of bereavement leave as I did when her dog died three years ago, and her grief for her dog is Very Important, and she thinks that the fact that I got a sympathy card signed by several people while only two people signed a card for her dog is “irresponsible.” And it’s like, yeah, the reason only two people signed a card for your dog is because YOU came around with the card and hectored people and told them they were being “insensitive” for not somehow telepathically sensing that your dog had died the week before. Just, I dislike this co-worker already and I know everyone grieves in their own way, but I really need her to shut up right now and stop talking about her goddamn dog and comparing the loss of her pet three years ago to the loss of my mother a month ago.

    1. Gidget*

      I am so sorry for you loss. Your coworker is extremely insensitive. You are very justified in your anger.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      She’s an asshole. Grief is not a competition.

      What do other co-workers say to her? Do they just nod and go along to get along? Is there anyone you can enlist to tell her to shut up?

      1. WellRed*

        Enlisting someone would be great, but if that’s not possible, I see no reason why you can’t say to the coworker, “Are you comparing my mother to a dog?”

        1. valentine*

          “Are you comparing my mother to a dog?”
          To challenge her is to fan her flame. The problem is she’s doing this at Anonymous and Angry instead of appealing to whoever makes the bereavement policy and sorts cards.

        2. YetAnotherUsername*

          I would actually say right out “stop comparing my mother to your dog”.

          I get that some people love their pets more than their parents, but they are truly the minority. The vast vast majority of humans love their parents more than their pets.

          You could also point out that if she took less bereavement leave than you did, that’s probably an indication that the loss of her dog wasn’t as upsetting for her as the loss of your mother is to you.

          I agree that grief shouldn’t be a competition, but she’s the one trying to make it a competition. And you can absolutely “win” this bizarre grief-off. Mother > dog. You “win”. Return awkwardness to sender. if she is trying to out-grieve you and reduce your loss, do it right back to her.

          1. fhqwhgads*

            It doesn’t even need to be about the upsetness. Bereavement leave isn’t about how upset you are. It’s about dealing with the Stuff that needs Doing when someone dies. It’s entirely logical that there’s more arrangements that need arranging when one’s mother dies than a dog. I mean, we all know that coworker is being completely absurd anyway, but even if we take all emotion out of it the time is not comparable.

    3. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      I’m very sorry about your losing your mother.

      re: co-worker
      So I take it your mother’s passing is all about her, right?
      Seems to be the case from how you describe this co-worker. Insensitive witch.
      Might ask her that. But do so understanding that my question is very snarky. That might not go over well at your workplace.
      As soon as she starts in about the dog, I would excuse myself and walk away (3 years ago the dog passed and she’s still going on about it? Sheesh!). There’s no rule that says you have to hear her out on non-business topics.
      If she does get upset that you are walking away, tell her she’s not “helping things” for you. I’m sure folks will be understanding if you do this to co-worker.

      I’m sorry you have to deal with this person’s selfishness.

    4. CM*

      This is incredibly inappropriate.

      If you can manage it, be very firm with her. Tell her, “I need you to stop the comparisons. The only appropriate response to someone losing a parent is to say you’re sorry. I don’t want to hear any more about your dog and I don’t want to discuss my bereavement leave. This subject is closed; let’s stay focused on work.”

    5. Mop Head*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. This woman is just selfish and petty. Sure, she suffered a loss when her dog died, but she has no sympathy for you. Write her off. When I came back after a few days when my mother died, one coworker went to another coworker a few feet from my desk and asked her what she was going to say to me. The second coworker said, very loudly, “I’m not friends with her, I don’t care that her mother died.” Really. So there are horrible, insensitive people everywhere. She is jealous you are getting more attention then she did. Don’t let her get to you.

    6. Laura H.*

      Losing a pet is not the same as losing a parent and everyone grieves differently!

      Heck, I lost two social acquaintances this week and while it hurts me, I cannot imagine what their families are going through, and their reaction and dealing with the loss probably puts mine at the bottom of the scale.

      I’m so sorry about your mother, and I’m sorry you have to endure your somewhat insensitive coworker.

      1. pcake*

        Losing our cat, who for a year and a half we spent taking care of with a wide variety of medications, helping him get up and down, sub cutaneous fluids and more, was as painful to me as losing my mother, who also had a medically challenging time and I miss to this day.

        Would I compare losing my cat OR my mother to someone else’s loss? Hell, no! I would want to be sympathetic to my coworker’s grief, which is how normal people would feel.

    7. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

      but I really need her to shut up right now and stop talking about her goddamn dog and comparing the loss of her pet three years ago to the loss of my mother a month ago.

      OMG, yes! What in the tone deaf hell?!

      I’m sorry for the loss of your mother. Ignore your ignorant coworker.

  94. DirectorOfCatHerding*

    I’m struggling to stay professional with this. I warned my boss multiple times several months ago that VendorA is not flexible enough to meet our needs, and that VendorB would be a much better choice. VendorA was slightly cheaper and their sales rep pushed harder, so VendorA won. Now, a few months into implementation, we’ve run into multiple issues of exactly the type I was worried about, and VendorA is reacting exactly how I thought they would. This week, an issue popped up that is just comically bad. As in, this is guaranteed to result in legal compliance issues. Not if, when. It will be physically impossible for me to ensure legal compliance within their platform. I’m one person, I can’t manually monitor the doings of 500 people.

    I’m not going to say “I told you so”, even though I did. But at the same time… like… it’s really hard to address this without at least mentioning “this is exactly what I was afraid of.” I am struggling to find a way to talk to my boss & the directors about this in a diplomatic & professional way, when all I want to say is “THIS IS WHY I VOTED FOR THE OTHER GUYS, TOO BAD YOU COMPLETELY IGNORED MY OPINION BECAUSE YOU ASSUMED I JUST DIDN’T WANT TO DEAL WITH CHANGE.” Thankfully, I have time to sleep on it and formulate a better response, lol.

    So, advice? All of the vendor’s suggested solutions will create a ton of tedious work for people. It can’t be me, as it would be literally impossible for one person to handle this, for multiple reasons. And yet, the more we delegate it out to people in the field, the more likely someone will get lax and there goes compliance. I will be telling boss/directors this, and frankly, they’ll have to figure out a way to deal with this. I’ve been dealing with keeping people in compliance in this area for 7 years now, and it’s been a constant struggle, to the point where I joke that my business card should say “cat herder”. I know, logically, that this is 100% not going to work with the current attitudes towards these processes. I won’t say that, but I don’t know how to get boss/directors to realize it on their own. It’s like how you can’t tell someone they are being conned, because they don’t want to believe it, and you just have to plant information and hope they connect the dots on their own. I am not good at this.

    This is super rambly. I’ll stop now. I’m just frustrated, and getting very close to being 100% checked with this whole process.

    1. chizuk*

      “As we discussed previously, Vendor A’s lack of flexibility in [areas] means a reduced amount of [whatever is it, ex: oversight] in needed production areas. This has led to liability and compliance issues in [specific places].”

      Just hammer in over and over again that because X, therefore Y, and then push consequences, consequences, consequences, and that consequences involve money. This has to be handled. It does not need to be handled only by you.

      Also, document the hell out of this because legal compliance is legal compliance and you need to CYA.

      1. DirectorOfCatHerding*

        Oh yes, documentation all over the place. All of this is happening through email. It’s allllll in writing. I am a firm believer in CYA. My last job featured a lot of throwing people under buses, so I learned the value of CYA there. Thankfully, this office doesn’t have that kind of culture, but it’s still a habit I keep.

        Thanks for your comment. It is a lot in line with what I was thinking I would need to do, but the way you phrased it makes me think of the advice you see on relationship advice forums about the “grey rock” thing. Just keep repeating the facts, don’t get worked up, don’t let them turn it around on you. It’s not a 1-to-1 correlation to my situation, obviously, but it’s a helpful idea to keep in mind.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      That’s why they’re cheaper…that’s why they’re cheaper, just yuck. I want to say “Director of Cat Herder told you so.” on your behalf so you don’t have to ;)

      Just go in there and tell them what’s going on, that it’s impossible to stay compliant with their suggestions and that you cannot handle this on your own, since you know, you can’t. Then ask them how they want to proceed. Make it their problem. This is not your problem to solve, when the higher ups ef it up, they have to be the ones who take it on the chin, not you or anyone else.

      And really, if you do say “this is what I was worried about” that’s an honest thing to say. Choosing vendors can be a gamble like that, it’s something that the people who made the decision to use them has to just eat crow about.

      1. DirectorOfCatHerding*

        I literally said “you get what you pay for” when we were looking at our options and he kept talking about saving money. I’m NOT going to point that out, though. Not unless he brings it up first. That would just be the kind of gloaty jab I’m wanting to avoid. I’ll just think it really loudly. :)

        Making it their problem was definitely the strategy I was going to go for. I have a tendency to make things my problem when really it’s out of my control, so this is somewhat new to me and I’m glad you’re saying this so I can know it’s not just a knee-jerk “eff it” reaction. I will be but a messenger, a conduit to them from the vendor, and they can do the math from there.

        Thanks for the feedback. :)

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I understand the tendency to take on the “not my problems” as your own. I’m in recovery from that myself ;)

          As a bargain hunter, you have to have the skill to really know what’s okay to take the cheaper route on and what you need the pricier options for. I don’t skimp on computer/technologies. I’ll buy budget creamers and off-brand office supplies all day long or most accessories. I’ll get budget toilet paper and spend the big bucks where it counts on equipment and anything that actually produces our product! These folks failed and were blinded by only the numbers.

          1. DirectorOfCatHerding*

            That is EXACTLY my view on saving money. Some things matter more than others. Something THIS vital to our operations is not the place to skimp. Especially since I don’t think the actual cost was that much lower. (I never was CCed on any of the pricing, so I have no idea, and I’ve wondered many a time if that was on accident or not.)

        2. JustaTech*

          There’s a great Polish saying (translated) “not my circus, not my monkeys”.
          Your boss is the ringmaster, they chose VendorA, now *they* can deal with VendorA’s monkeys wreaking havoc everywhere.
          Besides, your title says you do cats, not monkeys.

          (Seriously, good luck.)

  95. Alice*

    Sorry for the double post but I just saw this and I could use some info from y’all. I’m not sure what my official job title is any more. Basically:
    – I was hired 4 years ago as “Junior Llama Wrangler”. This is in the official offer letter.
    – 2 years ago the company was renovating our website and we were asked to submit bios. When I submitted mine, my boss told me I should change my title to Llama Groomer, so I did. Llama Groomer is a bit more prestigious than a mere Wrangler and I had recently been praised during yearly review and given a small raise, so I assumed this was their way of giving me an official promotion. I don’t think anything was written down but our company website has said “Alice, Llama Wrangler” since then.
    – Today I went to check our Jobs page and randomly went on the About Us page. Surprise… it now says “Alice, Senior Llama Wrangler”.

    Now… what to do? I really don’t care if they call me a Llama Groomer or a Llama Wrangler, in fact I’m starting a new job as Owl Specialist in November. However I’m not sure how to handle my resume which currently says Llama Groomer. Is it okay to keep it like this? I would prefer to have Senior Llama Wrangler as it fits better with what I did (Llama Groomers are usually expected to have experience in fur trimming which I didn’t have, for example) but I feel weird changing it now. I’m worried people who come across the two versions of my resume might think I’m not serious or overinflating my job titles. For context, I’m not in a country/industry where references are a thing, so I’m not concerned about what my current manager might say. I also don’t really want to talk with my current manager about this, although I suppose she’s the only one who can clear up the confusion…? Really not sure what to do. Probably not a big deal but I’m already stressing about my final weeks so I might be overthinking it.

    1. Alice*

      Sorry, second bullet point should have been that the corporate website said “Alice, Llama Groomer”. Got myself confused :(

    2. BeeGee*

      I think you may be over thinking it. I would just ask your manager if Senior Llama Wrangler is the title you can use for LinkedIn (if you are worried that if you say for a resume it might set off alarms) and maybe point out that it is the title currently on the company website and you prefer that to Llama Groomer as it more reflects your role and experience in the industry.

      But if you’re worried that your manager may push back on it for whatever reason, I think as long as it is labeled as such on the company website, I feel like anyone checking your credentials wouldn’t question your title on your resume if the company website has that same title.

  96. anon for this*

    My husband was arrested last year on a very serious felony charge that was thrown out by the grand jury (small town BS got him arrested in the first place), and he’s now looking to move on from his current job. We’re still paying off lawyer bills and can’t afford at this time to get the arrest expunged/removed, so presumably when he applies for a job that does a background check, as many will, they will see this very serious felony charge on his record, despite the fact that it was never a real thing. How do you explain that since a) we still live in close proximity to the racist small town and in a rural area where calling it that would not go over well, and b) he works in a blue-collar field where the application process isn’t as straightforward as the white-collar professional world.

    (To give full context, we had an open relationship and he hooked up a person who claimed to be 19, a couple years younger than him, but was in fact 17, a sheriff’s daughter, and white, and they tried to throw the book at him for it…thank god for good lawyers)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So he was arrested and charged, but not found guilty?

      That shouldn’t pop on a background check!

      Also if he’s doing blue collar work, are they actually running background checks? I have only ever ran them at one place and we’re really like “Meh, whatever.” unless it’s theft, theft is the one thing that we’re worried about most and anything that’s violent.

      Also in our case, we always take into consideration that POC are wrongly convicted all the GD time. I have reminded my management team of that when we see someone come back with some pops. I had someone who had “resisting arrest” on their record and I looked at my boss and just said “They tack on these kinds of things all the time, it’s often BS.” Wiggling too much as a POC and asking why you’re being arrested can get you into that “resisting arrest” category, even my white girl butt knows that.

      I’m hoping that you live close to that ugly ass place but are in a place that understands that rural BS is a thing. I know it’s well known in our cities that backwoods towns are you know, full of their biases. To put it nicely.

      Signed, that person from that racist podunk town that ran out a nice Mexican family who had a fantastic restaurant that everyone liked…they just didn’t like the fact the owners were you know, not white. Barf.

      1. anon for this*

        I’ve heard that arrests will show up depending on who they use as a vendor for the background check, which is what has got me up over it, because yeah, the grand jury took one look and didn’t even indict but he was still arrested on some pretty intense-looking charges(felony sexual assault of a minor? or something like that? it was scary!).

        I think there’s a lot of lee-way in that many places don’t care too much about a background check and a lot can be talked-away in blue-color worlds, and my husband is very charming and friendly, but at the same time…he’s black. And the same guys who are hiring him are the same guys who voted for Trump to drain the swamp and send back the Mexicans. He gets told he’s “one of the good ones” more often than is comfortable. I just am trying to figure out what the best advice to give him is besides “be as charming as you possibly can”.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Most places are using budget background checks, which don’t show that. Those deeper ones are usually for higher ranking jobs, if you weed out everyone who’s gotten pulled over or thrown in a drunk tank somewhere kind of thing, you don’t ever find a person who will do physical labor in most places.

          The sick sad thing is that since he’s black, he’s always going to have that disgusting weight hanging over his head. He’s been dealing with this his entire life, really the only thing you can do is understand that he’s got the deck stacked against him because racist trash are out there among us being racist trash. Don’t ever think that he’s being denied jobs because he’s not trying hard enough, etc. Like some people will assume when someone is struggling with finding employment. But you can’t spend your own energy being stressed out about the “what ifs” as well, it’s a fine balance and it sucks to try to find it.

          And I know an immigrant, who actually helped other immigrants get over here, who is a huge psycho Trump supporter and business owner. It’s a really…disturbing thing to have witnessed needless to say. Yet his entire core staff was from South of the border, since in the areas we’re from, it’s mostly Mexico/South Americans. I only ever saw him fire white people.

          The key is to just depend on his charms, since that’s going to get him farther than anything else. Most places will hire just about anyone for a blue collar job and then suddenly, when you show up and show you’re a hard worker, they turn that disgusting “oh you’re a good one” nonsense on.

          1. anon for this*

            Sorry for the double reply! I hit submit and nothing showed up so I wrote a whole new reply lol.

            I’m glad to hear that the budget checks, which yeah, will be the ones they use, won’t show it most likely! I’m a worrier by nature and it’s been so hard because I worry about him more than he worries about himself because it’s so second nature to him to know yes, this is my life, this is how I’m seen, this is just how it is, and I’m like “noooo!”. But I probably do need to remind him that if he struggles to find work it’s more a reflection of them than him and all he can do is his best.

            I actually work and volunteer with a similar kinda guy! Born in Mexico, works very, very hard to help others immigrate legally, huge volunteer in the community, proud of his heritage, travels back and forth across the border a lot, on and on. He’s a good guy, genuinely good human being, and I just can’t figure out why he supports Trump. It makes me sad because it feels very pull up the ladder behind him.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Some folks who are immigrants have a misaligned view of the beauty of the USA being that we can actively hate and be vocal about any given president. I have seen people say ‘Well I didn’t vote for the person but he’s the President so you know, gotta respect the President.” And my internal wheels start screeching hitting the brakes that attach to my mouth.

              Lots of people will vote for things or people who hurt them or their loved ones in very direct ways. Just like everyone on public assistance that voted for the people who gut social programs and then they just think that it’s the “other guys” who are making them stay poor and suffer *face desk*

              It’s understandable. I think a lot of us worry more about our partners than they worry about themselves. It’s why we are the ones remind them to wear their jackets when it’s freezing outside and pack their lunches, even if they are very much capable of doing it themselves. So it’s one of those pieces of advice that has to be given but really, I know in reality, you’re never going to stop worrying about it.

              We had someone’s mother thank our foreman for “giving her son a chance” and when it was relayed to me by the foreman, we both instantly responded with “He gave us a chance too though.” Thankfully his response was “I’m glad he gave us a chance and it’s all worked out but if he hadn’t made it here, he would have made it somewhere else. He’s a good worker and a good person, I’m not the only one who would have seen the potential!” But it got me to thinking of all the awful sh*t that POC and their parents think about and how gross it makes me feel that someone is really thankful that their capable, great loved ones are just given chances by some of us white people who don’t take race into consideration because you know, it’s not something that should be done.

      2. anon for this*

        I’ve heard that some vendors show arrests and not just convictions. That’s what has my concerned, because it’s scary to see that someone you’re looking to hire was arrested for felony sexual assault of a minor, or whatever the actual wording is. And given that he’s black, he’s either going to be given zero benefit of the doubt(more likely considering where we live and the nature of the blue-collar industry around here), or like your situation someone will be aware that it might be fishy.

        I just want to be able to give him some advice that is more than “be as charming as you can and say it was a misunderstanding with the sheriff”

        1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

          Do you have documentation that shows he was released of the charges?
          Might have this handy for the discussion with a potential employer regarding what really happened.

          1. anon for this*

            Yeah, I just don’t think it will ever make it to the point where he’s given a chance to explain. I’m concerned they run it and see it and never speak to him again.

            1. valentine*

              I would pass on him for this. The onus is on him to ascertain age (and proximity to LEOs, apparently). Just because they might let a white guy get away with it doesn’t make it racism.

              3. anon for this*

                While that is in fact very racist, at least you’re honest. There isn’t much else he could have done considering they met in a bar, but your reaction is exactly the concern, because the extenuating circumstances aren’t exactly plentiful.

      3. Clisby*

        I don’t know what state this is in, but the mention of a grand jury makes me think he wasn’t indicted, and therefore wasn’t tried at all. At least in SC, where I live, a grand jury doesn’t try and convict/exonerate anyone; it just decides whether a case can go forward. If a grand jury here refused to indict someone, that would be the end of the case. No idea how that works when it comes to background checks, though.

        1. anon for this*

          Yes, exactly. He was arrested within 24h but the grand jury refused to indict and that was the end of it.

    2. Ann Perkins*

      The company I work for runs background checks that do show felony arrests. If someone pings on it we just need to see documentation that it was dismissed. If your county court website has full information available publicly, he should keep his Court docket number on file so that he can also pull it up on the website and show any potential employers that it’s been dismissed. I’m not sure how it works in processes for blue-collar processes, but my inclination would be to say that if he’s gotten to that step in the process, he should be upfront with the employer that he had a felony charge but it was dismissed.

      1. Clisby*

        This sounds like good advice. If the grand jury process works like it does in my state (SC) there’s a record that the grand jury refused to issue an indictment (a legal statement that the case can go forward.)

      2. anon for this*

        Good to know! I actually don’t think we have a physical copy of anything showing it was dismissed but we could get our hands on it easily if need be. I’ve already told him the best bet is to give them a heads up that he was arrested but the grand jury refused to indict and the case was dismissed, but he hasn’t gotten that far in the process yet for anywhere that I’m aware of.

  97. Temp Job Seeker*

    I posted on here a week or two ago and was hoping for some more details…

    I’ve been a VP of operations for the past 3 years. Before that, I was a Director level for 7. I recently relocated to a new city for health reasons and am now job-searching. Jobs at this level I know can take a long time to hire, and I want to stay busy.

    I am interested temp jobs, mostly to stay busy. It’s important to me to have somewhere to go to interact with people and have a routine. I was looking at admin/office manager jobs, but job agencies keep forwarding my resume on to other departments because they don’t believe someone at my level would be interested (even when I explain the situation).

    Some people on this forum asked why I didn’t do a consulting job instead… and I’m kind of confused about what people meant by that. I did apply to some consulting jobs, but they seem to have as long of a hiring process as the other full-time positions I’m applying to. All the positions I’ve had in the past have been direct-hire through a company, so if there’s some path I’m missing, I’d appreciate to know more about it!

    How can I get temporary work?

    1. CM*

      Can you take the VP and Director titles off your resume for the temp jobs and just put “Operations” with a description that leaves out the higher-level tasks you did?

      By “consulting” I’m guessing people mean hourly-rate freelance consulting.

      1. Filosofickle*

        Yes, I would assume consulting = self employed / independent contractor / freelancer. There are a lot of ways to do that, by the hour, by the project, by period of time. (I do project-based work. My projects are typically 10-25 hours per week for 3-9 months.) But it can still be a long process to pull in projects and this kind of work doesn’t necessarily provide a routine and place to go.

        In my field, there are staffing agencies that specialize in time-based contracts for highly skilled jobs — exactly the same as “temp” work except it’d be a role that matches your experience better. You’re employed, legally, by the agency, but you work at the client site full time just like an employee would. I’ve seen it for marketing, IT, programming, financial, accounting, legal, creative, research, HR, engineering, all sorts of fields. I would think the ops world would have placements, too.

        Start with places like Scion and Robert Half. There are hundreds, usually each one has some specializations. Once you get a feel for what search terms you need, dig farther. The pay often isn’t great, but it sounds like your goal is to keep an oar in.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Tbh, I wouldn’t hire someone in your situation because I would be skeptical of their claims.

      Have you considered volunteering somewhere that would meet your social needs and help you network?

    3. YetAnotherUsername*

      I have two separate resumes, one for “career” and one for “short term / part time jobs” that I did when studying, to keep busy during my stay at home mom phase, etc. The second resume just lists my retail and admin type experience. I have also found it helps to put right in the cover letter / in the discussion with the employer a plausible reason for why you want this type of job.

      Eg just after I graduated I applied for a job in a shop and I said to the manager “I’m not going to lie and say this is what I want to do forever. I’m currently looking for jobs in my field and I estimate it will take me at least 6 months to get one (there was a crash) and maybe a year. But I can promise you that I learn really fast and I will work really hard for you as long as I am here, and I will give you as much notice as I can when I leave”

      On the stay at home mom job (one day a week as a temp admin) I said to the recruitment lady “I realize I am way over qualified for this, but I just want something that will get me out of the house for a day a week. I’m bored minding a baby all day but I don’t want to go back to full time work yet”.

      If it’s plausible they will accept it.

      Are you applying for the type of job where they want a long term person? That’s not going to work. It needs to be something with a high turnover like retail or waitressing, or else a temp agency. If they are looking for a permanent person they won’t be interested.

    4. JustaTech*

      I think when people are talking about “consulting” they mean hanging out your own shingle. That could mean companies who want to ask you very specific questions (and will pay for your time), or larger projects.

      But unless you’re with a firm, which would be full-time permanent position, you’re not going to get either a regular schedule or people to work *with*. If you just want people you could try a co-working space.

      But if you’re more interested in people and a schedule than making money, you might consider volunteering. These days there are volunteering positions that are more administrative, although it might just be envelope-stuffing.

      Good luck!

  98. BeeGee*

    It’s another “employer ghosted me” story…

    I had an HR phone screen, a phone interview with the hiring manager, and finally an in-person interview at the downtown office that included 30 min. interviews with 4 people in the department. It’s been three weeks since the interview and…nothing. I forgot to ask after the last interview for a timeline on when I should hear back, so I emailed this past Monday (over two weeks had passed since the interview) about an updated timeline and….radio silence. When I looked up Glassdoor reviews, it turns out that if they are interested in extending you an offer, you will know within a week of an in-person interview. If they aren’t, you will never hear from them again. Btw this is a Fortune 500 company, so it’s even more infuriating! I spent so much time and effort to prepare and attend the interviews, plus 4 thank you notes, the least I deserve is a “thanks but no thanks” email. It just makes you feel invisible, especially as someone who is unemployed. I even have a friend who works in the broader department (not the sub group though) who even put in a good word for me, so you would think it is especially disrespectful to not give an employee’s friend the courtesy of a rejection letter.

    For those that may think that there may be a slight chance, I think it’s unlikely because I saw that the job was reposted, albeit without the senior label attached. The irony is that even though it’s no longer a senior role, I really didn’t see any adjustments in the role requirements (they still want 5+ years of experience).

  99. CupcakeCounter*

    WTF were they thinking emails???
    From the post this morning about sending an email to a department your don’t know 2 weeks after being fired – I mentioned I had an ex-coworker send some emails that GOT her fired. Here is the story:

    My ex-coworker applied for an internal promotion and was auto-rejected because she didn’t have the degree or experience required (think project accountant). She proceeded to email all of the project managers in the company (about 100 or so) requesting that they email the hiring manager about how much they want her in that role and how great she would do. 3 or 4 years prior she had worked in a support role for that team so about half of the current PM’s knew who she was but 1) hadn’t worked with her in years and 2) had no idea if she was qualified for the role since her previous support position mainly consisted of data entry work. That didn’t get the response she wanted and one of the PM’s told her current boss and the hiring manager about the email and she was talked to about several things relating to that email (it was VERY long and quite demanding). She then proceeded to email the entire sale force, nearly 1,000 people, requesting the same thing. Her current role supported about 50 of those people and this role was closer to the project accountant role she wanted and one or two actually did send an email to the hiring manager indicating that they thought she did a great job for them (she did) and deserved a promotion. Several others found the email inappropriate and notified her boss and the hiring manager again. She received a formal write up this time and did NOT take it well.
    She sent another email to both the PM’s and the sales team that absolutely berated them for getting her in trouble and how could they do that to her after all she’s done for them. It was a horrible email and very against company policy and business norms.
    She got fired.
    Sent an email a week later to the entire company (8,000+ people all over the world) telling them that the company treated her poorly and refuse to interview her because she was a woman and management was threatened by her. IT blocked her email address.
    A month after that, her former boss received a call that she had put him down as a reference for a new position. He was pretty honest and said that in X role she did very good work but due to some recent poor judgement he couldn’t recommend her and she was ineligible for rehire.
    Cue another all company email from her (she created a new email account since her previous one was blocked by IT) claiming that the company was enacting a smear campaign against her preventing her from being hired anywhere.
    Around this time I get a call from a friend who received an application from this ex-coworker. They noticed she worked at Company and wondered if I knew her. I said yes and told them what I knew about her (not including any of the above since this all happened after I left and I found out about it later from my best friend who still worked there). Friend seemed confused since I was talking about low level data entry and admin support roles and she had applied for a Controller position. I informed friend that I wasn’t aware that she had completed her degree since last I knew she was attending community college part time and had only completed around one full time year (24-30 credit hours). We talked a bit longer and discovered that she had “embellished” her roles a wee bit making them seem like accounting and analyst roles.
    I mention this call to best friend who still works at Company and get the whole story above.

    You guys have any WTF stories?

    1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      How on earth did she manage to find email addresses for 8000 company employees??

      1. morning glory*

        My guess is it’s a list-serv that goes to the entire company. My org has one that automatically goes to 600 people.

      2. JanetM*

        I’m guessing that there’s an all-staff listserv, rather than 8,000 individual addresses, but I could be wrong.

      4. CupcakeCounter*

        Yes – the company had a distribution list for things like “Message from the CEO” and whatnot and she forwarded one to her home email and basically was able to copy/paste into a new email.

        1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

          That was my question! I figured if she was fired, her access to those types of lists would have been cut off.

        2. A Non E. Mouse*

          Yes – the company had a distribution list for things like “Message from the CEO” and whatnot and she forwarded one to her home email and basically was able to copy/paste into a new email.

          This is an IT fail.

          We have those type lists auto-reject external email – ONLY internal, fully authenticated accounts can send to these type lists.

    3. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

      No such stories here – but yours was one of the saddest I’ve read here. I would have been tempted to send her the link to the website of a licensed medical professional. She needs help.

  100. DaniCalifornia*

    So I’m quitting my horrible job. Giving 3 weeks notice mid November and then going on first vacation in a looooong time. I do not have a new job lined up. It’s terrifying but there is absolutely no way I can continue to work here. It’s also freeing knowing I have 56 days until I can say “Good riddance” I have been job hunting seriously for awhile and am working with a great recruiter who is ready to put me on temp jobs until we find a good DH fit. My spouse and I are trimming our budget and planning low key holidays. I am looking into doing some side hustle things as I’m in school for design.

    -Last week I found out my supervisor told my boss “It’s me or them.” over a perceived slight. They did not tell me I slighted them, didn’t try to talk with me at all. I apologized and got scolded in front of a team member that had nothing to do with the situation or has any authority over me, yet that sat in our “meeting”.
    -Supervisor told boss I was the reason a new hire didn’t work out (when in reality supervisor interviewed exactly one person and hired them. Boss’ wife told me later that boss didn’t even like new hire from day 1, but trusted supervisor!!!) Boss didn’t give credence to supervisor as they threw me under the bus but didn’t stand up for me either or try to see if issues were resolved.
    -So now it all makes sense. Why supervisor has been piling work on me when I was told I would have less to do. Why supervisor was giving me tasks that are WAY more junior in addition to my work. Criticizing very small details of my work that I was actually fixing bc their child and BFF (nepotism runs rampant here) made mistakes, yet making me do all the customer service while telling me “you’re better at it than child and BFF.” She refuses to deal with child and BFF being bad at their jobs, and instead just takes away their work. Guess who ends up getting it?

    So at first I thought I was being punished for being a good employee. Now I know it’s that and for some reason supervisor just has it out for me. Maybe because I started standing up for myself this year and pushing back on unreasonable expectations.

    I have no qualms about quitting. They are hiring a new front desk person so at least they have good candidates to hopefully replace me from. Boss will seriously freak out as I’m the only person he asks/trusts to do things. The other CPAs only ask me for support. One of the CPAs I work with told me when I do quit one day, it’ll be a bad day. Even my supervisor will be upset (but mostly bc they know they’ll have to do more work.) But I wouldn’t feel right continuing my job search and then potentially finding a new job in the middle of tax season and leaving them hanging. I shouldn’t care about them bc 3 weeks notice is professional and bc at will right? My boss wouldn’t give me the same consideration. But at least I wouldn’t be exploding a bridge. Boss doesn’t even give references for good employees who leave due to moving. Just debating if there’s a professional way to tell boss why I’m quitting because unless I have a new job in the next month all I’ve got now is lying and saying I’m returning to school FT or partial truth that tax season is just too much and after 8 years I’m worn down.

    1. boredatwork*

      I quit public accounting mid-august, with 2 weeks notice, because my managers let a transfer from another office TORTURE me. When I quit, there was a “I’m not surprised” attitude but overall, there has been zero blow back. I still see former supervisors at training and everyone seems to remember me fondly.

      I would just be matter of fact, XX day will be my last day, let me know what you want me to accomplish before then. If they ask you where you’re going or what you’re doing, just be vague. You’re taking some time off to focus on XX.

      Congrats on getting out!

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Thank you! I will never go back to public accounting or anything with a tax season ever again. I kind of fell into it and for awhile loved it. But it’s time for something new. I like the “taking time off to focus on XX” reason.

    2. CM*

      Quitting a job with 3 weeks notice should not be exploding a bridge! Your boss is unreasonable, even aside from Supervisor hating you. If this boss does not give good references to anybody, there is not much you can do here. Just say you’re leaving for family reasons that you don’t want to get into. (You are part of your family, and you’re miserable.)

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Hah yes I am part of a family and I already feel terrible about how much my spouse has to hear about and deal with the blow back of my toxic job. I saw it would be exploding a bridge bc we are a 10 person firm so 10% of the employees leaving mid tax season would suck. We are already understaffed. They will have at least 6 weeks before tax season to hunt and find someone to replace me. They would deserve me leaving mid tax season but I’d rather take the high road. Although last week’s epic quitting story was so delicious that I seriously thought about something similar! (But I won’t)

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m happily waiting for the place to be a shambles when you give notice. It serves any boss right for trusting you so much but you know, not having your back at all and abusing you.

      3 weeks is above and beyond. And they can eat a sack of poop if they want to be mad you left. Leave during tax season. They made their bed, dude.

      Don’t give them a reason why you’re leaving, just say it’s time for you to move on.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        I predict it will be. I’ll be sure to check in with the CPAs I like next year lol! The admin side of the firm will be in for it. And the CPAs will not be happy that nothing is done right. Boss will fume but he is a coward who avoids confrontation on all parts and will just steam in his office lol.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I hope it makes some of the CPA’s leave *steeps fingers*

          Yeah, I’m awful and love it when it rains on bad managements heads like that. Dominoes, ya’ll.

          1. DaniCalifornia*

            Lol thank you for making me laugh today, it’s a terrible day with 4 days until our extended deadline and

            The CPA who said it’ll be a bad day when I leave has talked about quitting. He’s an in-law to the boss and doesn’t love his job or boss. I encouraged him to leave and be free of tax season. I hope me leaving makes next year his last tax year.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I’d rather eat glass than be a CPA, he could do so many other less stressful things with his background.

  101. Lalaith*

    I have an issue with my coworker and emails. There are times when she has been corresponding with a client in an email thread, and they’ve asked her to do something, but she doesn’t have time for it so she hands it over to me. However, to do this, she just forwards me the email thread, and then wants me to reply to everyone on the original thread when I’ve done the task. Sometimes there are a number of people on these threads, so to reply-all, I’d have to copy each email individually into the To: or CC: fields. Not only is that annoying, but it also means the response is coming from a completely different person than who the client has already been corresponding with, which I think is a little weird. To me, it would make more sense to either have her reply-all including me and tell everyone I’m handling the task, or have me handle it and then she can reply that it’s done. (It’s also kind of annoying that sometimes this means I get roped into handling related issues for this client from that point forward, when I’d rather just help out while she’s too busy). Is it just me being too much of a stickler for email continuity, or is this legitimately annoying? And considering she’s kind of my team lead, do I have standing to address it with her?

    1. CM*

      This seems like a totally reasonable request for you to make: “When you’re delegating a task to me that involves replying to the group, I’d appreciate it if you could Reply All to the group instead of forwarding the task to me. That way I can respond, and they’ll expect a response from me. Right now, when you forward emails, I need to individually find each person’s email address, and the client might not expect a response from someone they don’t know.” And then when she forgets and forwards you an email, say, “No problem, can you also Reply All to the email and let the client know I’m handling it, so I can reply to the thread when I’m done?”

  102. Brazilian Hobbit*

    Not really up to finding my old comments, but a small update: my boss (company owner) has finally taken a moment to sit with myself and my coworker who had been going crazy at the lack of communication, and asked us to direct any issues straight to him (issues we were having with people ignoring requests of important information we needed, among other things) and he’ll tackle them. So far, we haven’t needed to, but I’m definitely happy to give it a try and see what happens while I figure out my next move.

    Wish me luck, and thank you so much to everyone who’s been making encouraging comments in the past open threads! Anything really does help when you’re in a stressful situation!

  103. Help with Jelloman*

    Anyone work with a “jelloman” manager, as in he is hard to pin down as jello to a tree?

    The main issue is he won’t help direct the current project and make required decisions and he wait until the team decides upon a path. If it doesn’t work, its the team’s fault. But if it does, it was all due to his superhuman efforts.

    Anyone else experience this? Ideas on how to cope?

    1. BeeGee*

      I can relate, as someone who came from a very small company and team. I would see if you can get a recurring weekly meeting set up for everyone, even just 30 minutes is enough to review and discuss projects. As far as being able to get vital questions or decisions from the boss, be up front about preferred communication. Ask him what is going to be the best way to answer urgent requests or what avenues are best to get timely responses/requests back. My boss would say he wanted things emailed but I eventually had to put notifications to myself to be sure to follow up and ask again about projects I would send to him. We eventually implemented Monday.com as a project management tool so I would be able to keep all the project info and attachments there and we could review there when I had his limited time (realistically it would have been nice for him to review before meetings, but he was really unprepared/unorganized and I had to take what I could get out him).

      Long story short, you’re just going to have to go the extra mile and try a few things to see what works to get him more involved. It would piss me off that I had to essentially be sure that I reminded and organized him for every project, but at the end of the day, I needed to get things done and I didn’t want to be blamed for his poor response time and organization.

      As far as the “you’re welcome for my greatness”, I had to deal with that, too. It’s best to just let it roll than start anything. The people you work with more closely will know your efforts, and as long as your boss isn’t a complete turd, your boss will give you an occasional kudos.

  104. MogNuts*

    Would it be weird to ask my supervisor how I’m doing at my new job? It’s been a month and I haven’t really gotten much feedback (positive or negative) from my supervisor. I’m wondering if there are certain milestones that he wants me to reach or anything that I should improve upon. The company manual says new hires get a 3 month meeting but I’d like to get some feedback sooner than later.

    Or am I overthinking this and should take the silence as a sign that I’m doing fine?

    1. Lindsay*

      Not to armchair psychologist, but maybe it might be useful to interrogate why you want feedback. You mention milestones and improvement: are you feeling a little directionless, lost, unsure of your tasks? Or overwhelmed, bored, under-confident in your skills? After four weeks as your manager, they might not have a good enough impression of your work to make a fair judgement, unless they’re hovering over you the whole shift.
      I think it might be fine to ask for feedback, but I’d first take a look at how your manager generally handles feedback for your coworkers (both by observing their interactions and asking your coworkers about it). I’ve had managers in the past who *only* provide feedback during mandated reviews and directly asking them for feedback would only get a weird look.

    2. sacados*

      Not weird at all– definitely ask! Especially since you are new to the company and presumably don’t really know their culture on feedback yet (some places are good about it and no news does indeed mean good news, but that’s not always the case).
      Set up a one-on-one check-in with your boss and say something like, “Now that I’ve been here a month I wanted to check in with you about my progress. I’ve been working on ABC, feel like I’ve got a good handle on DE, still catching up on XYZ (etc etc whatever your situation is). I know there will be a check-in about my performance in two months, but I wanted to know if there’s anything you think I should be working on before then”

      Or something like that.
      It’s a totally normal thing to ask!

    3. Bah Humbug*

      I would ask. I was a month into a job and apparently was doing poorly at it but didn’t realize because I had received no feedback. My manager’s defense when I screwed up and got yelled at by their boss was that it wasn’t my supervisor’s fault because they were a “hands-off” manager. So better to ask as a cover-your-ass thing, especially if there is a probationary period and they can just let you go at that three month mark.

  105. alligator aviator autopilot antimatter*

    At my current workplace, there is a union campaign happening that I have been pretty heavily involved in. It’s successful so far and I’m excited about it! It will become public knowledge pretty soon and word of this kind of thing travels fast in my industry.

    I’m also job hunting and have a phone interview coming up soon for a job I would really like. It’s in a different city, and at an organization that does not appear to have a unionized staff. I don’t think it will come up at the phone screen stage but if this process goes farther, what on earth do I tell them if they ask about the union or how involved I am in it?

    1. YetAnotherUsername*

      I dunno how this would fly in your industry, but in my industry mentioning you are heavily involved in the union would be A VERY BAD THING from the employers perspective. So I would say do not mention it at all.

      1. alligator aviator autopilot antimatter*

        I’m definitely not going to bring it up on my own volition, for sure, especially because the potential new place isn’t union. But I’m trying to think ahead of time of ways to politely deflect the question if they raise the subject. I could see them saying “Oh you work at X, I heard they’ve got done union stuff going on, what’s your perspective on that?”

  106. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    So over all these years, I’ve always worked with owners directly and this is my first time where owners are so off site [read different country], that I work under their appointed executive officer. So this is now my first time that my boss has decided to move on [nothing crazy, no drama at all, it’s a personal decision because he relocated here and it was known up front it wasn’t forever by any means, he doesn’t want to grow old here, his spouse misses their home country, etc.]

    So now I get to figure out this new adventure and how to navigate having a new person come in at some point. It’ll be gradual and my boss isn’t disappearing into the air. But it’s such a brand new, “how does this even work though?” kind of thing.

    I don’t know if there’s really an advice to seek here. I don’t know that it’s even venting, since I’m not mad at all. I’m sad. He was worried I’d be angry and given how we operate around here [and how I operate in life in general], I told him immediately that I understood his choice, I respected it and know that he has to do what’s best for him but of course I’m sad AF. I get misty eyed just thinking about it or when it has to be brought up again, which will get more and more as the ball keeps rolling.

    I know I’m a weirdo for never having this happen before. I also know that whomever takes over isn’t going to be scary or mean or anything crazy like that and I can hold my own, I’m not a shrinking violet and neither is anyone else here. So it’s really just the change over all and getting over the tummy rumbles that comes with the unknown.

    1. juliebulie*

      Any time that I’m in a nice situation, I dread the day that it will end, regardless of what will happen next. I’m just bad with endings. Sometimes I’ll miss the final episode of a TV show that I’ve been watching for years because I can’t handle the closure. I haven’t read book 7 of Harry Potter.

      So I get why you feel unsettled right now. Even if it’s not scary to have the rug pulled out from beneath your feet, you’re still going to miss the rug, and wonder what the new flooring will be like.

  107. Nonny Mouse*

    Say you’re applying for a promotion (the posting is open to all, including external candidates) at a company where you’ve worked for well over a decade, and that it’s the only place where you’ve worked in the industry. Your previous job, again, well over a decade ago, was an entry level position at a place that was a really bad fit, and it didn’t go well at all. You were hired without having to give that old boss as a reference.

    For this application process, the hiring manager (who’s already in your chain of command and knows you well), the person leaving that position (ditto–this person previously managed you), your current peer(s), and even some of your current reports are all likely to be part of the interview process.

    Who do you get for references?

    I’ve asked an old manager who left the company, and someone I’ve volunteered with in an industry-related group (a high-level person at a similar organization), and they have agreed. Our company typically wants at least three references, though, and I am STUMPED on where else to go. A client? Another high-level peer at another organization? If you were checking my references, who would you want to hear from, who could give you more info than the folks interviewing you already have on your abilities, weaknesses, potential, and development needs?

    1. Buttons*

      Surely the won’t ask you for a reference? I have been the hiring manager in a very similar situation, it was to promote someone who worked for one of my direct reports. So while I wasn’t their direct manager, I knew them well, I knew the performance reviews, etc. I didn’t ask them to provide a reference.
      Did they say you need to provide references? It would be really odd for them to ask for them.

      1. Nonny Mouse*

        No one tends to mention references until later in the process–it’s still early! The only time I can recall when we had internal candidates applying for a promotion in their own department, it was an internal posting, and it seemed like almost more of a formality (i.e., “if no red flags come up during the process, they have the job”).

        1. Buttons*

          If you have worked there 10 years, there is no way they are going to ask you for a reference. They may speak to your current manager.

          1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

            Yeah, I’ve never been asked for references from an employer when I moved internally. Like you said, they just speak to your manager.

  108. House Tyrell*

    Kitchen and maybe gender issue- My office is nice enough to provide free snacks and stock people’s favorite drinks. The rule is that if you drink or eat the last of something, you need to restock it. Supplies are in the cabinet and it takes less than 2 minutes. I’m a young woman and I always restock when I take the last of something, as do all the other women in my office, including the only woman VP and our female COO and CFO. The problem is the men, namely our two male VPs, never do. When they were spoken to about it by the woman VP, they said they didn’t have time and that they were’t going to start restocking and that it shouldn’t be their responsibility. I’d say it’s just those two guys being kinda jerk-ish, but I’ve only ever seen 1 or 2 of the guys here restocking, otherwise it’s the women noticing empty can racks or snack bowls or coffee creamers, etc, and replacing them even when we saw one of the men take the last one.

    To me this seems like a gender issue, and maybe a weird power dynamic for the two male VPs. If the women at or above their level can restock, and it only takes about a minute, there doesn’t really seem to be an excuse to not do so. Am I reading too much into this? I can’t exactly complain to them about it since I’m lower in the hierarchy, but they were already spoken to someone at their peer level and flat out refused. It seems like they expect, even subconsciously, for the women to do the “housekeeping” work and I don’t think it helps that they get their own offices while the female VP and female COO are in the cubicles with us, despite being lower in seniority by title or time here (although the CFO does get her own office.)

    1. Buttons*

      You have some gender imbalance happening there, and I would try to get all the women together and tell them to stop doing it.

      PS. How are a VP and COO in CUBICLES!!

      1. House Tyrell*

        Interestingly, this is a female dominated field. My company is the only one in our area with a male CEO and founder. The COO travels a lot and isn’t here very often, but the VP is here all day every day and sits next to me (a manager), a director, and our admin. Our office is like 80% women.

    2. Havarti*

      Those male VPs are massive jerks but likely will never change and you are correct that you don’t have the standing to call them out. I’m petty enough that I would stop restocking and encourage the women to stop as well. Grab what you need directly from the cabinet and let the men fetch their own as well.

      2. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        That’s not petty, that’s smart. OP and her female colleagues are not these men’s maids.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I would get all the women to stop restocking, and just take what you need, or even bring in a tiny dorm fridge just for yourself. But then, I would probably rather drink hot soda than restock for someone like those male VPs.

      1. House Tyrell*

        What frustrates me if I’m the one mostly affected, because the VPs and I don’t drink soda, but we do drink La Croix. Sometimes others drink it too, but it’s mostly just the three of us. And even the women who don’t usually drink it still restock if they take the last one. I just might take y’all up on the advice to stop restocking for them. I’ll just cool my own can just before lunch or drink it lukewarm.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The problem with just stopping restocking because 2 jackholes won’t follow the rules set up, you’re hurting a lot more than them. They’re not going to stop being jackasses because of that kind of punishment. I wouldn’t punish all due to the actions of just 2, ever.

      I have seen this happen with both genders so I can’t even pin in on gender, they’re just playing the thing we tell others here to do, if it’s not your “duty” then you’re within your rights to say “Nope, I don’t have time for that.” even if you really do.

      How big is the office and why is everyone restocking on their own? Do have admins who can be tasked with this and then it’s someone’s actual job so you don’t run into this kind of thing? Housekeeping and chores that we rely on everyone to “pitch in” for is always a sticky point with offices unless you have someone appointed to it officially as their job duty.

      1. House Tyrell*

        There’s around 30ish people in our home office here. We have admins, but the rule for now is that if you take the last of it, restock it or let the admin know if it’s completely out so she can reorder if she hasn’t already. It honestly doesn’t take more than two minutes to put some more sodas in the fridge or crackers in the bowl and if you don’t have time for that, then you should grab something else that you don’t need to restock. If these two and the other men (because it’s more than these 2, they’re just the most obnoxious about it) who don’t restock want to change that rule to have the admin restock everything, they could propose that, but just refusing to and not offering a solution is obnoxious. Not to mention that frankly, they aren’t that busy all the time that they don’t have 2 minutes to restock.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I get that but really, it’s one of those battles that will not ever be won in the end.

          Really it should just be that the company stops supplying snacks but again, it punishes everyone for the bad behavior of a few. They’ll never change. It’s seriously one of those “They suck and will not change.” kind of things.

          So unless they’ll get fired which given their positions and the issue at hand…won’t happen. Everyone needs to just get over it and roll your eyes internally at their precious delicate behaviors.

    5. HR Stoolie*

      Our Corp office is 30+ and offers similar extras as yours. Besides restocking we include coffee bean grinding, brewing, and sometimes dishes in their too.
      We have a diverse office and the staff basically breaks down to 3 categories. Ops Management, Sales, and Admin. What I find interesting is the person unloading the dishwasher or grinding beans might be the Founder/CEO(Male, Asian immigrant), Accounting Manager (Woman, US Hispanic), or humble HR Director (me, local born and bred whiteguy) but will rarely see anyone in sales doing it. I break it down to vision, Ops/Admin people see the broader scope of things, our Sales (also a diverse mix) is narrowly focused and miss or assume smaller details.
      Of course that might not apply to your office mix.

    6. JustaTech*

      In my experience it’s been a “guys asserting their position” thing.
      In my lab there were two guys who would not re-stock anything. Even things they needed. They would just yell for someone else to get it (if they were doing science) or snottily point out to the (younger, junior, women) coworkers that we were out of (tips, gloves, tubes, whatever).
      One of those guys was an ass to anyone he considered “beneath” him (younger, more junior, female, no PhD, except his boss).
      The other guy was just miserable in the position and didn’t want to be there at all but didn’t have the guts to quit (then, he later left to write code for a big box retailer).

      The other guys in our lab were more than happy to restock stuff they used up (but wouldn’t proactively check what supplies were low).

      So sometimes it can be a guy thing, but I think it’s more about power.

    7. anon9*

      Then just stop restocking. If the system isn’t working, and the women are already going into the cabinet to get their own stuff, then you all don’t need to do the work for them. In my opinion, this just feeds into their power trip – we are “above” this sort of behavior and we let them know and they will still cater to us.

      But I’m petty about these small things.

  109. Mediamaven*

    I know what the answer is so this is probably more of a vent than a question, but I need to get it off my chest. We have a tight office with single bathroom. I have an employee who has been doing Keto (may be related, maybe not) who has for the last few months been using this bathroom to do her morning business. It is obscene. It wafts through the entire office. A client made reference to it when they came in the other day, it smelled so bad. She sprays air freshener but it literally makes it worse. I know she does not have anything like Crohns so that is not the cause. I know it’s a bathroom, I know that’s what bathrooms are for, but it’s very frustrating that our office smells so bad half the day. I bought some poopouri yesterday, but any other ideas? I try to take care of that stuff at home and I realize that isn’t always feasible but I also wish people would be cognizant of the effect and also rendering the bathroom useless for an hour. Like, instead of arriving to the office 45 minutes early and then heading straight for the bathroom, do that at home, and then get to the office 10 minutes early!

    1. Buttons*

      Gross. Is the bathroom ventilated? does it have a fan? If not, I would be asking for one. The only other thing I can think of is to get poo pourri and leave it on the back of the toilet. It works so much better than air freshener.

      I wouldn’t be able to handle it, I have an incredibly weak stomach and a ridiculous sense of smell, I would dry heave and vomit.

      1. Mediamaven*

        It’s not really ventilated and she shuts the door behind her (that’s the first clue she’s gone). She thinks that’s a good thing but it’s really not because then it just stays in there an no one wants to use it. It has a fan and sometimes she’ll turn that on. It’s a very old building. I ordered the Poo-Pouri and will put that back there – hopefully it’s a solution and a hint. I don’t know why people think air freshener helps!

        1. ...*

          I think you should be explicit that people should turn on the fan, use poo purri and then crack the door. It is a bathroom so people will NEED to use it for pooping and you must allow it at any time. It relaly is an issue of the bathroom not accomodating the needs of people to do their business rather then her needing to do her business at home.

          1. JustaTech*

            If you can, just leave the fan on all the time. I know that can be loud and takes electricity, but that way no one ever forgets to turn it on, and if the fan is on *before* the smell I find that helps get rid of the smell faster.

    2. fposte*

      If she’s there 45 minutes early, it sounds like the effects don’t overlap much, at least.

      I get it stinks, but honestly, I think it’s going down a bad road to intimate where people need to poop. As long as it’s in a bathroom, they’re doing what they should be doing. Use the Poo-pourri and cross your fingers.

      1. Mediamaven*

        Well a lot of us get there early so it does. Yeah, I’m not going to suggest that she do that at home, I just wish she would elect to do so. I have another employee who likes to leave her evidence in the toilet as well no matter how many gently and not so gently messaged emails I send, so overall, bathroom issues are becoming a huge issue for us. It’s frustrating.

        1. BMAnon*

          I understand that it’s frustrating and can be unpleasant, but at least speaking for myself I can’t ‘elect’ where I will need to have a bowel movement. If I could I’d only do it in the most private place at the most convenient time, but at least with my body it happens when it happens.

          1. fposte*

            Yeah, it could be not that she’s leaving 45 min early to poop at the office, it’s that she’s leaving 45 minutes early to make sure she doesn’t poop during the commute, and that the alternative would be waiting around for God knows how long at home.

    3. M. Albertine*

      Ozium is also pretty good, as well as Bad Air Sponge. (h/t Jolie Kerr @ Ask a Clean Person)

    4. Not really a waitress*

      Ground Coffee. I have two teenaged sons who prefer to do their dirty business in the powder room. (something about how the bowl is shaped.) I ground up some coffee beans and put them in a jar with a lid and they open the lid on the jar as needed.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      I know signs don’t generally work, but I’ll offer this for what it’s worth: in the various bathrooms I have been in, in and around all my agency’s workplaces, I have occasionally seen signs inside the stalls asking users to perform “courtesy flushes” after bowel movements to prevent odors and to clear out the bowl of debris. So putting up a sign in big lettering on the wall behind the toilet baldly asking users to flush immediately after bowel movements to avoid smelling up the office is something you could try. If it doesn’t work, you’re no worse off than you were before.

  110. Lindsay*

    I love my two office-mates, but they are going to kill my eyes/brain/sanity very, very soon.
    We share a fairly small office in an ancient building that mostly has fluorescent lighting in the form of one single six-by-two box per room. I personally have never had the extreme aversion to fluorescents that a very vocal plurality of office workers seem to have, but for the most part I’m fine with people who want those lights off/half-off/dimmed. However. It’s so fucking dark in here you guys.
    We’re all IT, so I spend 99% of my day staring at dual screens, and no amount of fussing with the brightness/contrast levels can negate how exhausted my eyes are by the goddamn darkness. Office-mates have set up two table lamps that are amber-ish and very diffuse, and our single window is south-facing, so as the days have lengthened, so has the darkness deepened. I don’t really know what to do at this point, because neither one of them can stand having the overhead fluorescent on, and I’m seriously considering buying a jaunty eyepatch so I can enhance my night vision pirate-style.
    Would getting a lamp of my own help? Should I invest in a pair of those blue-light glasses? I’m not doing the 20/20/20 thing because A)ADD and B)everything in my immediate area is much closer than 20 feet. I have no idea where else to even start because I keep the mf lights on and don’t have this problem at my house.

    1. PopJunkie42*

      If I were you I’d go crazy with lights – lamps for overall ambience, a really bright small desk lamp to give you something close by, and then any other sort of under cabinet lights or ambient light you think might help!

      1. valentine*

        If it’s just a preference for them, keep the lights on. I think they’ll object to any brightness, so you may as well start with the one provided.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Can you load f.lux on your system? It has saved my eyes. It’s a cross-platform freeware that adjusts a display’s color temperature according to location and time of day. It’s supposed to be for avoiding night-time exposure to blue light that keeps people awake and affects their circadian rhythms, but I have found it the best tool on the planet for preventing eyestrain during the day. I’ve used it in in dimly lit caves of offices (in which I literally couldn’t see my own keyboard until I bought a desk lamp), as well as my current well-lit office.

      If you do load it, give yourself a few days to try a setting before adjusting colors; your eyes will need to slowly adapt.

      (Phones and laptops come with their own blue-light programs, but none work as well as f.lux, in my experience.)

  111. Evil Co-Worker*

    My evil co-worker* is basically on notice to be nice to me now. It is mind-blowing how the switch was flipped over night. One day she “lost” a super important document in a way that made it look like I lost it and the next day she’s fawning over me and asking a lot of personal questions.

    She’s done the flip before, but this is the longest amount of time she’s shown her friendly side. Basically it means exaggerated thank yous, lots of personal questions, and extended conversations that appear like problem solving sessions but she’s actually undermining the work of other colleagues.

    I want to set boundaries (particularly around the personal questions), but don’t want to give her ammunition for saying that I’m not working with her. I 100% have our supervisor’s support and it appears that there have been supervisory meetings between boss, grand boss (and maybe multiple great-grand bosses), and evil coworker to lay down the law.

    So in this really messed up relationship, what does appropriate boundary setting look like?

    *Bad mouthing me to colleagues then lying about it, changing important documents to cut me out (google docs so I can see the changes…), never sharing important information, regularly throwing me under the bus for mistakes she made…etc.

    1. CM*

      Be unfailingly polite, smile, but constantly deflect the conversation back to work. Stick to facts, nothing that could be construed as opinion or speculation. Send confirming emails saying, “Thanks so much for working with me on this, I appreciate your help, I just want to confirm what we decided which was (1) You will do X, and will get it to me by 5 p.m. tomorrow; and (2) I will then do Y.” CC people if you need them to see what’s going on.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        This. Do not answer personal questions; she’s looking for ammo to use against you. She’ll flip back eventually.
        Keep your behavior professional.
        Good luck

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          100% this! My dad’s side of the family did this– their entire communication style was 1) blowing up at each other melodramatically (2) sidling up to each other with loving niceness to draw out confidences from each other (3) that they would then reveal to the whole family to backstab each other in the next melodramatic blowup. I swear, some people are allergic to peace and quiet.

          Dodge those personal questions by cheerfully redirecting her to work topics.

  112. Competent Commenter*

    Looking for advice on how to determine who employed me about 20 years ago to see if I have any retirement credits.

    Short version of this story: While I was self-employed I was hired to work remotely for 20 hours/week for a program of University A. The program itself was located near me, which was hundreds of miles from Public University A. The program also had a parallel nonprofit agency (some people later called it a slush fund) that paid some expenses. When I was hired, the director said, “I know you’re a contractor but in this case it’s just easier to pay you as an employee. We won’t give you health benefits but we’ll pay you $50/hour (less than my going rate but great since they’d be paying taxes).” This was odd but fine with me. I never set foot on the Public University A campus since it was a 12-hour drive away.

    Three years later, Public University A boots the program out, probably because the director could not follow university policy. Public University B, which is located near me and the program, takes on the program and promptly fires the director. I worked there another two years, still as an employee, at $35/hour with full health benefits.

    Recently I found out that I have service credits with Public University B which add up to $400/month when I retire. I went to Public University A to see if I had credits there. The university has two separate arms and two retirement plans, and neither arm nor plan can find me in their systems.

    I’m an information hoarder so I should have tons of documentation on this…but nope. I have scans of my tax returns but not the W-2s and 1099s, and my returns don’t include the name of my employer, so I don’t have any evidence as to which arm of Public University A was paying me, or if I was paid by the nonprofit/slush fund. I do not have an email archive for this time period/program. All I found for proof that I worked there are some timesheets with University A’s logo (very informal looking Word files provided by the director), but that doesn’t prove who paid me—only that I’m not dreaming!

    The program is long closed. The people who ran it at University B were so, so toxic, and we’re talking about employment prior to their tenure, so I don’t see them as a resource. I hesitate to go back to the original director, if I can even find her (I’d expect her to be retired by now). She could never do things by the book and I can’t imagine she kept any records of my employment.

    Does anyone have ANY suggestion of how else I could find out which organization paid me? My W-2s went to the IRS but they’re not going to have that information, right? My accountant from that period died years ago. I am really out of ideas.

    1. CM*

      I was going to say you might as well contact the IRS, but according to this page you can only get records for the past 3 years (or 10 for just basic info without the supplemental forms).
      https://www.irs.gov/individuals/tax-return-transcript-types-and-ways-to-order-them

      If Univ A is telling you they never paid you, I think you’re stuck — you could maybe call up HR or finance for Univ A if you haven’t tried that yet, to see if they have records of your employment.

    2. Natalie*

      The IRS does keep quite a lot of information, but unfortunately not as far back as it sounds like you need (7-10 years depending on the item). However, you can order copies of W2s from the Social Security Administration for any year from 1978 onward. There is a fee if you don’t need it for a social security related reason. I’ll put the link in a reply.

    3. Buttons*

      You can request old W2s if you know the years, and it will have the information. You can request that directly from the IRS, but it is faster to go to any accountant and ask them to do it. It takes just a few minutes and your SSN.
      Also, my current 401k plan company did it for me! When I transferred 401k funds from one company over to them I asked them the same question you are asking. I hadn’t lived in the US since I was fresh out of grad school, and back then I didn’t pay attention. They were able to do some sort of search and found money I had at 3 companies I had worked in the 90s!

      Good luck!

      1. Natalie*

        You can easily set up an account online to view your wage and tax transcripts. I wouldn’t bother paying an accountant to do it.

    4. fposte*

      I think the W2s sound like a great idea, but I also think if you’re not currently in the retirement system for University A, you’re likely to be out of luck. It may be worth getting the W2 just to clarify things for yourself and to see if you can joggle something loose in case you were in there in some unsearchable way, but with a public university retirement system I suspect you won’t be retroactively added.

      1. Competent Commenter*

        I have the same thoughts, fposte, but figure it’s worth trying. Even if the public university paid me, I also wonder whether I was excluded from the retirement system the way I was excluded from the health insurance. And I wonder if the reason I have 1.9 years of service credit from Univ. B despite being only part-time for two years is that they rolled my credits over from Univ. A (different systems, but both state universities). So only about 1 of 5 scenarios looks promising.

          1. Competent Commenter*

            Yeah, it seems worth the effort since my other unexpected service credits, at $400/month, will come to almost $100k if I receive them for 20 years! And I intend to live a long time. :)

  113. Ughhhh*

    Y’all I interviewed for a job on Tuesday, submitted references per the employer’s request on Wednesday, and know from a friend inside the org that I am in the final two. And the uncertainty is killing me. I can’t take the advice to “keep searching” because I was not really looking to leave my current job but when I found out about this opportunity at a great company I knew I had to apply. I am having trouble focusing on my current work, but it’s getting easier to ignore my anxiety with each passing day. Anyway good thoughts and any advice for focusing on my current work in the meantime are appreciated!

  114. Lizabeth*

    Just had a performance review in the first time in who knows how long…and have a situation that I’d like suggestions on.

    I’m pretty much a self starter and a little engine that could who chugs along and gets things done. I was reviewed by someone who is well aware of the work that I get done – the review I got isn’t the problem. The problem is that Aria, who reviewed me, got a crappy review by one of the owners that I feel was unfounded and undeserved. The Borg (the owners) are pretty clueless on what people do and there’s a LOT of managing up to keep the company on track by Aria. I’d like to write something in the comment section about how easy Aria is to work with etc without it coming off as a f**ky*u to the Borg. AND the Borg had no idea that the employees would have to read their reviews and sign them. I don’t know if the Borg will be looking at the reviews once they are turned in or if the grand bosses will. Aria will not be signing her review when she turns it in.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Clever word phrasing? Thanks!

    1. Buttons*

      That sucks for Aira. You could write in the open comments section something like– “I feel that a great part of my success in achieving these goals is the direction and leadership from Aira.”

  115. PopJunkie42*

    So I’m in a new-ish job and things are finally going well, aside from my workload. My office knows the workload is too much and they burnt out the last person (who is still around pt). My boss wanted to hire a pt person to help me but the higher-ups haven’t approved it and he said he’s not hopeful.

    Right now I’m trying to figure out how to get a very serious “I NEED this to happen” message across without burning bridges. Basically, if nothing changes in this position, I’ll probably stay for a year or so and then leave. I’ve had far too many stressful, life-consuming jobs and I’m just not willing or interested in killing myself for a job these days. They already had someone else leave before me after 6 months and while they’ve lightened the workload in some places before I got here, we’re now proposing new programs that would create hours and hours of new ongoing work for me.

    Essentially, how do I say “If you don’t hire me more help I’m going to leave pretty quickly” without being that…drastic? I do really enjoy this job and my boss and I want to make it work and stay for a long time. But I’m really not interested in the high levels of stress on a daily basis plus 45+ hour workweeks without any downtime. I feel like in the past I’ve been bad about communicating to my supervisor’s what I was unhappy with, and so when I ended up leaving they were very surprised. I really want to invest in this job and make it work but I don’t know a good way of expressing the seriousness of my needs without being brushed off by a “well, everyone’s busy, that’s just the way it is” sort of response.

    1. Buttons*

      I think it is incredibly fair to say “this level of work isn’t sustainable. I need to know there is a clear plan and an end date to this workload.” and see what she says.

    2. Kathenus*

      An alternate tactic might be instead of focusing on the workload issue, focus on clear communication to your boss of what you CAN do in a reasonable workday. ‘Boss, here are the items I’m prioritizing for this week. Please let me know if you prefer any changes to this plan’. Don’t focus on not being able to do everything, instead (in writing) be clear as to what you plan to do and how you are prioritizing the tasks.

      1. Competent Commenter*

        I second Kathenus’s suggestion, although it can be more difficult to carry out than it sounds.

        When I’ve been in this situation there was this never-ending stream of requests, assignments, projects, events. It made it difficult to say “I’m doing this, which means this and this won’t happen” because 1) I was new and it took a while to see how heavy the workload was, 2) I was blaming myself for somehow not being up to doing three people’s jobs, 3) I worried that I was making the wrong choices about priorities, as though some special combination of prioritizing would fix the situation, 4) everything was such a muddle that I didn’t even know what trade off to suggest, and 5) saying “I’m doing this and not that” made it sound like I could actually guarantee to do the first thing in a certain time, and with the constant deluge nothing seemed certain.

        It’s only now that we hired a second person so I’m not working alone that things have cleared up a bit so I’ve been able to confidently say “your major project was late/will be late because you assigned two other projects.” Also, I kind of snapped about two years in and just stopped caring as much. I stopped working outside of 8-5 and let the chips fall where they may. If it’s not done…oh well. If it mattered that much to them, they’d hire more staff. So my stress level went down, allowing me to think more clearly about the points above, which as you can see were heavily influenced by my own insecurities and panic.

        Hope something in there is helpful!

        1. PopJunkie42*

          Thanks all – this is super helpful! One thing I’m struggling with is I really LIKE a lot of the newer bigger projects that come my way. I really want to take the chunk of very time-consuming but “simple” administrative work off of my plate and be able to focus on the bigger, more involved projects that I am qualified to do. I think I do just need to be really straightforward (and perhaps a tad annoying) to my boss to make sure this doesn’t fall by the wayside.

  116. dorothyparker*

    Partially writing to vent but also for some advice. Within a week, I’ve had our ceo do two very overtly nepotistic things that has entirely made me want to leave my nonprofit org.

    The first was that a friend of ceo’s is opening this weird pseudosciencey type business (think healing crystals) and has asked that we push this business to our donors. We’ve been given a coupon to send to some of our volunteers to use and it’s been pressed that this is important (it is our busiest time of year and this should flat out not be a priority but whatever ceo says, we have to do apparently). I think this is super problematic. We are a wellness focused org but have a partnerships team that has not been looped into this not too mention, this doesn’t align with our organization’s priorities in the slightest.

    The second is much bigger in my eyes. I work for a nonprofit with a heavy focus on events we put on. A few weeks ago, we held a children’s event for the community. It’s always a great event, it’s free and open to anyone. One of our celebrity spokespeople (think d-list and also someone who was accused of assault and cleared of the accusation based on an internal investigation by his network where they didn’t even speak to the victim–which adds a layer here I’ve been angry about for months), brought his wife and daughter. 1) he didn’t seem to understand that this was what he was a spokesperson for (fine, whatever, not shocked) but he then asked our ceo who we’d hired to put the event on because it was so great. Ceo clarifed it was our staff. Celeb then asked if he could hire our nonprofit staff with full time jobs to come put on his daughter’s birthday. Ceo agreed. I think this is insane. We are nonprofit who does these events to serve all people, especially underserved communities, not to do a party for a celeb’s kid. It will not be open to anyone and they’re going to have him make a donation as payment (as if that alleviates the inappropriate nature of the situation). BUT this is also staff time they’re going to take to plan this. After this came out (and I’ve confirmed with coworkers privy to the situation that thus far it is happening), I legitimately decided to leave the org ASAP. Our ceo clearly has zero respect for our mission and moreso, zero respect for staff’s time.

    Anyway, there are a few of us being very vocal about how inappropriate this is to our bosses and grandbosses but our hands are tied. What can I do? I guess just leave?

    1. Buttons*

      ALL of that is awful! OMG. Is there a board of directors you could talk to? Do they know this is happening? This is why non-profits have such a bad rep. I am appalled. Can the staff refuse to work on kid’s party?? No one in hell would I do it.
      I don’t think there is anything you can do but get out, and I would make it clear why you are leaving when you give your notice.

    2. tomatotomaahto*

      Pushing CEO’s friends healing crystal business to donors? nononononono. It’s unprofessional, but you also risk donors thinking this business is a nonprofit org/partnership team approved initiative and forming all sorts of negative opinions about your org based on that.

      Same issue with donor perception with putting on a party for celebrity kids. What will your donors, who I’m assuming give to support underserved communities, think when their money is being used to plan celeb birthdays? Even if that money ISN’T going there, IMHO donor perception is everything and you’re in murky waters.

      Would it help to point out to your bosses how very bad it looks to donors to be doing these two things? How you might lose major donors and funding? At our org, if your pres. sneezes the wrong way we have donors threatening to pull out. Do you have any of those?

    3. MissBliss*

      Having him “make a donation as payment” could actually be [sounds like it would be] tax fraud. A donation is something for which a donor does not receive a personal benefit. Since it sounds like your staff will be doing the actual work of the party, the payment is a payment, not a donation.

    4. Ama*

      Does your CEO have ANY prior experience as a nonprofit executive, because both of these things are huge no-nos and could potentially compromise your org’s non-profit tax status if you go through with them.

    5. Bex*

      How bridge-burny are you feeling? Because accepting a philanthropic donation as payment for tangible benefits (aka, party planning services) is actually super effing illegal. Document whatever you can, then send it to the board and/or the IRS depending on how you feel.

  117. ??*

    Is it acceptable to rate women or talk about “cute guys” at work? My gut feeling says no, and but at the same time I wonder if the rule changes a little if this happens among peers with nobody in management present? I have sat through a few occasions where this happened, and while I didn’t actively participate, I didn’t try to stop the flow of the conversation either. Should I have done anything, am I just the party-pooper? etc.

    2. fposte*

      Rating women by number: never okay. “I think [celebrity] is really good looking” as a passing comment is fine; “I think [coworker] is hot” is not; drilling down into who’s hot and who’s not in a longer conversation is asking for trouble.

      “Dude, that’s gross” can be decent pushback for the rating thing. You may not stop it, but you’ve established the fact that it’s not something everybody’s enjoying.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      There’s a difference between ‘rating’ people and talking about ‘cute guys.’ You should avoid the first entirely everywhere because it’s dehumanizing. You should avoid the second at work because it’s too easy for it to become problematic. ‘I like watching Will Smith movies because he’s so cute’ is ok, but it can slide too easily into ‘and that guy in accounting looks just like him, cue inappropriate discussion.’

      Sometimes it’s right to poop the party, and sometimes you can redirect.
      ‘Wow, Angelina Jolie is such a 10’ = poop that party, ‘rating people is dehumanizing and gross, please stop.’
      ‘Will Smith is soooo cute’ = redirect into non-physical attributes, like, ‘Yeah, and I really respect him and Jada, they seem to be doing it right’ or ‘And he’s so versatile! Humor or action, he does them well. I like Men In Black because he did such a good job of blending the two. What’s your favorite of his movies? Do you like him better in the funny or action roles?’

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        The key thing to watch for is dehumanizing – reducing any human, male, female, non-binary, fluid or other – to a number, or comparing them to an animal, or an object. Cougar, b*ch, stud, hot tamale, coffee-colored – they’re all turning real multidimensional people into one flat aspect. It can be ok (he’s a real rock!) but it is super easy for it to go bad, even when intentions are good.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This sounds like sitting at the cafeteria table in high school conversation. So that’s usually a huge “no, don’t do that.”

      If it involves anyone who works there or random Joe’s/Jody’s on a dating app, absolutely frigging not okay! That’s Burn Book Status right there.

      If they’re just chatting about Brad Pitt [no thank you] vs Johnny Depp [double no] [and I am old and it’s showing], then it’s just a weird “Meh” kind of thing. Since celebrities are a different kettle of fish but still a squicky kind of thing to be doing as adults who are not drunk AF in a bar somewhere.

    5. Dinosaurs walk amongst us*

      I’ll be interested in the replies as have something similar going on at work. I comment on it if I hear it but I work with a couple of guys who make 12 year olds look mature so I pick my battles. Older coworker said to new younger coworker soooooo who do you think has the sexier women Sales or Factory teams. New coworker shut it down by giving a puzzled “huh?” ignored the question and went to get coffee. Older coworker has got into trouble before for his sexist comments so it’s mind boggling that he keeps making them.

  118. Should I start my own business?*

    I work remotely for a large corporation and make a very good salary with excellent benefits, flexibility, etc. However, I do have to travel a few times a year (which I hate!) and some days can be pretty stressful. I don’t think I can move up without giving up remote work, which I won’t do.

    I recently had a daughter and intend to have two more children. I am finding myself fantasizing more and more about having an even more flexible life, where I can go to the park with my daughter during the day and work when she’s asleep.

    Before this job, I did a lot of freelance work to supplement my lower non profit salary. At my best year, I was making 56% of my corporate salary via freelance without actively soliciting any work, while still working full time for the non profit. I would really like to restart my freelance business so that I could work fewer and more flexible hours with no travel. While we could afford for me to make no money, I like working and I would like to keep my resume current, have room in the budget for extras, etc. But I am nervous about losing the security of a cushy corporate job, and I also feel like I am learning a lot right now. My freelance skill set (marketing) has a lot of opportunity for clients but what I am doing now (data viz) has me set for a lucrative and advanced climb up the corporate ladder if I’m willing to relocate to really any major city (I am not). My dad owns his own business and I always said I wouldn’t ever do it because I’d hate trying to secure clients. But as I get more and more experience, I’m finding the soliciting clients part less stressful (it helps that I have some built in contacts now that send me a lot of jobs). Does anybody have any stories or experience with moving from corporate to freelance or finding a way to keep working while having flexibility?

    1. Profane Pencils*

      Could you drop your hourly commitment to your current job while you ramp up your freelance clientele? My sister did something similar, though in the opposite direction.
      She’s been freelance for two decades, now, and about six years ago was offered a really attractive, almost ideal position at a national healthcare-related company.
      She felt very strongly about continuing to do freelance work when she was offered the position, and proposed working 0.7 instead of 1.0. They negotiated salary and benefits adjustments to match, but it worked out. It also means she has a steady income even when her freelance work is really slow.

    2. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Honestly, this reads as if you already very much know what you want to do! :)

      It sounds like you think you *should* want to keep your current job, because you’re learning and it offers so many future opportunities. But it also sounds like you’re not really interested in any of those future opportunities. It sounds like money isn’t a factor, either. So, overall, it sounds like your heart sings to spend time with your once and future kids and do freelance on the side, but you’re reluctant to give up your plum gig?

      There are no guarantees in life. All your freelance clients could dry up overnight in a recession; alternately, a VP at your current company could be found to have been engaging in illegal behaviors and the company takes a major hit and starts layoffs. It seems like you’ve earned a great position for yourself, and if you can’t use that to step back and hang out with your kids more when that’s what you really want to do, what are you earning it for?

    3. YetAnotherUsername*

      I have a book to recommend. It’s called 168 hours and it’s by Laura VanderKam who runs a successful business, has 4 kids and one on the way and manages to run every day. She will make you think about time management in a very different way.

  119. Karen from Finance*

    Hi! I haven’t been here for a while, but I need some advice.

    I’m about to ask my boss if I can get the company to cover a training I want to do. I can argue that it’s skills we need for the company, but I also really want this for my carreer development.

    The company budget is tight, but think they could say yes, because:
    – He has already told me to look into trainings in the general area of this topic
    – I have some positive political capital because I’ve been helping out with tasks that are outside of the scope of my role.
    – We have just been discussing an issue that I run into often, that neither of us can solve as is, but I reasonably could with this further training.

    The only issue is that I won’t be able to go on the next available date, I should wait until they post another one.

    Should I email him now about this, or wait until there is a new date posted? Any advice on the best way to ask him? So far I’ve drafted a very short email outlining how I think we could benefit from this, and what I could bring to the table with these skills.

    1. Profane Pencils*

      How far out do you expect the next date to be, and how much notice would you be able to give?
      That will make a difference. If you’ll have a couple months of lead time, I would recommend waiting.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        The next date is a month from now, I can’t go because I’ve already booked a short getaway for those days.

        I have no idea how often they are spacing these out. They can have another one in December, couldn’t be until March. Which is mainly why I’m having second thoughts about asking.

        1. Buttons*

          I think it is ok to ask now, especially if it might be tough to get funding approval. I had something similar happen, and while the new date wasn’t going to be until the next fiscal year, my boss wanted me to go ahead and pay for it out of the current budget, so we wouldn’t lose that money.

          1. Karen from Finance*

            So should I say something like “although I won’t be available on the next date it’s posted, if you agree, I think we should keep this in our radar so that I can go next time it’s offered”?

            I have literally never asked for anything, so I have no frame of reference for these things.

        2. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

          Can you contact the folks who provide this training and ask them if they can give you an idea as to when they plan to give upcoming sessions (beyond the ones already scheduled and announced)? Sometimes they are able to give you an idea (“week of 02 Dec or 09 Dec depending upon when the venue confirms our booking request. And they will get back to us in two weeks’ time”).

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve been wondering how you’ve been!

      This is the kind of thing that will serve them greatly and he’s already mentioned that you should look into it.

      So I would approach it as “As you suggested, I looked into development options. I have found some training sessions that should be in line with our goals as a company.” and explain the training that you’ve found.

      It shouldn’t be about convincing him, since he’s already mentioned it before. It should be approached as a “follow up” to your previous discussion as in “of course the company will pay for this.” you can bring up the costs and how the date is still not released, so it won’t effect the budget until a few months from now, so there’s time to plan it. Instead of just dropping in and saying “I need 5k today for training, kthx byeeeeee.”

      I would email him but I’d also make sure you speak to him directly if he seemingly ignores it after a week or so. Just in that “I wanted to talk to you about that email about training options, I haven’t heard back from you about the approval.”

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Hi!!! :D

        Honestly, I’d given up on reaching some semblance of sanity here and I’ve accepted that there won’t be many interesting job postings in my area in my country until next year, so I’d given up. And so I’d stopped coming here. But I’m climbing back out of that mentality!

        As usual I really like your wording, thank you so much.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I figured that may have been the case.

          Honestly, for your own sanity, buckling in and taking the bumpy ride is reasonable. You can ALWAYS kickstart another job-search along the way. It’s all about timing and things tend to fall into laps when they’re meant to. So before wasn’t the right time, just gotta keep it in the back of your head to at least be passively looking is all.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I think we’ve all been there in some way or form. I know that I’ve stayed longer than I should at places because you know, they weren’t harming animals or something that I was actively opposed to, they were just…weirdos in the end who did things…that I wouldn’t ever choose to do if I had a say in it. I know there are some weird borderline things you have to deal with over there but really, it’s experience and you will network yourself out of there sooner or later!

              You have to literally threaten my job security or scream at me to flip a table and just leave a place high and dry.

  120. WellRed*

    In this week’s edition of, should have asked AAM, the Dear Prudence letter writer who’s office wanted to throw a Diwali event. Prudie originally thought it was OK (!) until it was clarified that the company consists of six white women and that’s how they want to be diverse. My eyes are still crossing.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Well, at least Daniel gave a reasonable answer – presentation about it ok, participation is icky.

    3. Witchy Human*

      And also thought it was probably okay if it leaned more toward the educational side, which…no.

    4. Arctic*

      He didn’t initially say it was OK. He said it would be OK to do a video or presentation about it with some food but that it would be wrong to have costumes or any sort of mimicry of a Diwali celebration.

          1. AnonoMyHead*

            Geez louise, I was trying to remember it off the top of my head, not recount it verbatim. Please don’t misrepresent ME. And don’t nitpick. It’s against the rules.

    5. Parenthetically*

      Yiiiiiiikes.

      (If they live in an area with a large Hindu population and/or serve or work with a lot of Hindu people? Sure, have a diversity training day where you learn about Diwali. Otherwise YIKES these white ladies are totally going to be wearing bindis and wrapping themselves in bedsheets aren’t they)

    6. Wishing You Well*

      Who’s doing the presentation? A non-Hindu who Googled it?
      Religious presentations at work sound too problematic to mess with IMHO.

  121. Profane Pencils*

    I’ve been at my (very small, <15 staff) company for just under a year, and was moved laterally into a technical writing position during a company-wide reorganization. I started in my new role on Tuesday.
    I've held organizational roles like this before–have helped create structure for new startups–but was working hand-in-hand with management to do so. Editing the employee handbook, or drafting a pet policy, or documenting our onboarding process so it's standardized was all done as part of a partnership.

    This is the first time where I've been set free, and am expected to set my own deadlines and manage my own workload. I'm not worried about this–I have really good outside mentorship–but I do have two questions.

    1. What operational documents would you consider absolutely fundamental to a company's functioning? Think really basic, like opening and closing procedures, job descriptions… Procedures where, if you found a company that didn't have anything recorded, your immediate reaction would be "what the hell?"

    2. This work is also part of an effort to help instill structure. Leadership is really good at losing focus, which is a whole other issue, and the office is a disorganized wreck as a result. The company has existed for about five years, now, but the first four were full of toxic dynamics, employees taking advantage of leaderships' permissiveness, losing clients, and ending up under a tax lien. Clearly, what they've been doing wasn't working.
    I'm struggling with how to explain the importance of this kind of operational framework without using language that alludes to their being a hot mess.

    (For example, this time last year, they'd just spent a good amount of money on designing and printing posters for the company values… which are not great. There are eight, and one of them is "Improv(e)". As in, combining Imoprov and Improve into the same item.
    They were trying to be clever, but it's clunky, and as a copy editor and writer, it makes my skin crawl–and I've heard more than one staff member ridicule the values, using this specific one as an example.)

    1. DataDiva*

      Onboarding information! When new folks show up in my department, there’s been little communication beforehand: we often have no idea that they’re starting that day, have no computer or phone set up, etc. It took me five months until I was added to the all staff email list, simply because I didn’t know there was an all-staff email list to be added to!

    2. Birdbrain*

      I’m not sure if this the sort of document you’re working on, but:
      Develop and measure goals, benchmarks and ways to measure success. So if they are a llama grooming company, have a document outlining their goals and priorities for the year (or quarter, or whatever), what the indicators of success are (does success = a certain number of llamas groomed, higher profits by x%, less staff turnover…?), how they will measure their progress, etc.

      I assume you’re not the one setting the goals or coming up with company strategy, but maybe you could develop a template or a policy on when/how these goals should be set and evaluated.
      Source: I was shocked to discover that a previous job had none of this. I still have no idea how management evaluated anything.

      1. Profane Pencils*

        Thank you! This is very helpful, and very important, and something we don’t have written down. Augh.

  122. MusicWithRocksInIt*

    I just got laid off this week. It was actually a good severance package, and they are paying for a recruiting firm to work with me to find a job (as well as everyone else laid off – it was a big one). Does anyone have experience with a place like this? I haven’t talked to them yet (they are suppose to contact me) but I am not sure what to expect? Their pitch seems to be that most jobs aren’t listed formally and they find those job listing that you wouldn’t normally find.

    1. RussianInTexas*

      I worked with a recruiting firm after my last layoff and they helped me a lot with the resume – I was employed at the same company for almost 15 years before that and it was my first and only job in the US and as a result, I had no idea what I was doing.
      On the other hand, their other suggestions about specific networking parties they had, and making your own web-site were to me, specifically, not as helpful, since they were for the professions with WAY higher level and pay, we are talking department management level and up. I was in the technician/customer support field.
      When I told the woman who was my assigned “mentor” about that, she said “well, try churches job fairs then”, and I’ve never heard from her again.
      But YMMV.

    2. Nicki Name*

      It may depend on your industry. In mine (software), yeah, you get access to a lot more jobs through recruiters. I’ve gotten all but one of mine that way.

  123. Comms Girl*

    A good “Ask the Readers” question.

    There’s currently some office drama going on. I’m a middle manager in a small department, and two of my reports are interns who started at the same time. Lizzie is diligent, efficient, creative and full of initiative. Lydia spends 3/4 of her time chit chatting away, and the 1/4 moaning every task is difficult and she doesn’t know what to do (after being briefed countless times); her overall work is simply not up to par, and her attitude is quite juvenile.
    Lizzie was offered a permanent position this week and accepted it. Lydia wasn’t and willl not be offered a job. Because they’re close and get along very well, Lizzie asked our boss who oversees hiring and HR, Jane, if she could be the one telling Lydia about the fact she was offered and accepted a job, but Jane said no and that she would be the one informing Lydia.

    Lydia did not take this well in many, maaany ways. She apparently shouted(!) at Jane during that meeting and has had a piss-poor attitude ever since – she’s been stomping around or dragging her feet, refuses to look at people, answers in monosyllables and shrugs and is overall behaving like a spoiled child (and cementing even more the reasons why she wasn’t offered a position). In a conversation with Lizzie after the big news, Lydia accused her of betrayal saying that, were she in Lizzie’s shoes, she’d ignored Jane’s orders and tell Lizzie about the offer regardless. She also says she feels stupid because she feels she was the last know. She is now treating Lizzie like she’s not even in the room.

    Lizzie now thinks everyone hates her because of Lydia (nobody does, really) and feels uncomfortable. I had a informal chat with Lizzie yesterday and told her she shouldn’t feel guilty for not doing something that could potentially jeopardise her future and that, as close as they may be, she’s not responsible for managing Lydia’s emotions.
    I’m not supposed to know about any of this (insofar as “accusations of betrayal etc” go) but at the same time there’s a palpable tension and change of mood in the office ever since (as much as I’m supposed to be ignorant about this, I’m nevertheless not stupid and I’m very observant). I know as a (middle) manager I can perfectly go to Lydia and warn her about her attitude and how she’s not contributing to change people’s impressions – the question is, should I? What would you guys do?

    1. Profane Pencils*

      Out of curiosity, why are you supposed to be ignorant about it? it seems pretty relevant to your concerns.

      I would absolutely say something to Lydia. Regardless of the source of her behavior, she is being profoundly unprofessional and making everyone else’s lives more difficult. I’d also be concerned with how not managing Lydia more closely is affecting others’ perception of you, especially after she shouted at Jane. (I take this back, though, if there is someone else more immediately responsible for Lydia, though it doesn’t sound like it.)

      At any rate, it’s in your best interests right now to make sure that Lizzie knows that you have her back and support her, and part of that is cutting Lydia’s unkind and unprofessional behavior off at the pass.

      (if she’s not doing work, why is she still employed, intern or not?)

    2. Buttons*

      I would talk to her. Part of the reason people intern is to prepare them for work, and she needs you to tell her her behavior is unprofessional and unacceptable. She needs to pull it together and realize she wasn’t offered a full-time job because of XYZ.

      Good luck!

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Wait, though: Why did Lizzie know? Who the heck is telling interns about whether or not other interns are getting offers?

      Sure, Lydia’s a problem and you need to talk to her, but somebody poured oil on that fire.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        You may have an office problem. All this ‘not supposed to know but I do’ stuff (Lizzie re: Lydia’s non offer; you re: Lydia’s accusation to Lizzie) is seriously unprofessional.

        So, set a tone –
        1) Tell Lydia she needs to change x, y for the remainder of the internship if she wants a decent reference letter.
        2) Tell Lizzie
        a. You’re sorry she got put into such an awkward position
        b. Normally she would not know anything about Lydia’s job options.
        c. You’ll work to make sure that interns are not put into that position in the future.
        3) Also tell Lizzie, ‘wow, that sucks, and I’ll check in with Lydia. Is there a work problem we need to address – ie is Lydia gating any of your work?’

        And then go figure out how Lizzie got told about Lydia’s non-offer and shut that down hard. Really really hard.

    4. CatCat*

      Yes, you should talk to Lydia. Her remaining time at the internship should be in jeopardy over her behavior: shouting at Jane, stomping around, not behaving civilly in the office (sounds like she is being curt or dismissive with the shrugging and monosyllable answers), complaining about tasks, spending excessive amount of time not working. You don’t need to mention Lizzie at all. Lydia needs to shape up or ship out. She needs to hear that.

    5. Comms Girl*

      Hi everyone, thanks for your insightful comments. Lots of questions to answer here from you, so I’ll try my best:
      – Why did Lizzie knew about Lydia’s non-offer? Because weeks before Lizzie got offered a job, Lydia asked Jane directly if she was going be hired. The answer was negative – and then she proceeded to share that with Lizzie. This is basically a case of interns being way too buddy-buddies with each other and one of them have extremely distorted views of how a professional environment works.
      – Why am I not supposed to know about it all? I am only not supposed to know about the “accusation of betrayal” as that was a convo that took place outside the office and outside working hours between Lizzie and Lydia. Lizzie confided in me yesterday because i did ask her how she was doing (again, you could cut the tension with a knife between those two these days, only a fool wouldn’t notice it), and that’s how I know about that.
      – While i supervise them in general in the office space we share, Lydia works very little with me, and most of her projects are directly supervised by Jane. I was also not present during the “breaking the news convo” when Lydia shouted at Jane – Jane told me that in confidence afterwards. She also told me will be asked to leave if her attitude doesn’t improve. I unfortunately have 0 hiring/firing, but I definitely can (and will have) a convo with Lydia to tell her to behave professionally as this is unacceptable.
      – Why is Lydia still around? Because we’re terribly understaffed atm (again, I have 0 to none hiring/firing power).
      – I’m still very new to management. I don’t want to use it as an excuse, but I’m definitely still trying to navigate this all. Be assured that I have already talked to Lizzie and I will do everything I can to shut this down – she is a stellar performer and fully deserved her offer; regardless of that, no one should be treated like this, offer or not.

      Thanks, all! I really appreciate your inputs!

      1. sacados*

        Yikes. Well in a lot of ways the betrayal, conversations you are/are not supposed to know about, etc. is not really the point. The two most important things that need to be done are
        1) support Lizzie, let her know she’s doing a great job, help coach her through the interactions with Lydia (all things it sounds like you are already doing, so great — keep that up)
        2) control Lydia’s behavior. Regardless of conversations, it sounds like she is being unprofessional at work, hostile to coworkers, not doing her job, etc. Those are all things that someone (whether you or Jane, whoever makes sense/has authority in the moment) needs to shut down. This is easier because it doesn’t matter *why* Lydia is being unprofessional, you only need to address the behavior and not the motivation.

  124. Go Mud Hens!*

    I’m an American looking for work in Europe, specifically the Netherlands. I know this is pretty general, but does anyone have advice re: the ways that the job search differs in the US and EU? I’m in a technical field, though I’m pretty junior.

    Thanks :) I’m a long-time lurker so it’s exciting to comment!

    1. AeroEngineer*

      I started out in the USA, did my masters degree in NL and then worked there for a year (in a very technical field) and am now elsewhere in Europe (I would personally not move back there unless I had a partner or had a family). I am guessing that you will need a visa, and honestly, it is pretty hard as a junior person to get hired from abroad, as the employer will need to prove that there is no EU citizen who can fill the position. You can try to apply, but only very large companies will probably want to deal with a non-EU citizens, if that, so starting there is probably the best use of your time. There are also a lot of people trying to get jobs in Europe right now, even in the technical fields, so the field is a bit saturated.

      The number 1 way I see Americans get positions is to first to a masters degree in NL or in Europe. That also clears up any possibility of having issues with degree transfers. Bachelors degrees do not mean the same thing here (and was a big reason I just went ahead and did a masters directly out of my bachelors) especially bachelors degrees from not the NL.

      One other way to try is to first get in at a US company and then get transferred. Or to take a position at a company for a few years where you might not do exactly what you want, but it would at least get you here and with a visa and then you can work towards residency. Also read up on what your CV/Resume should look like as it is quite different than what a USA resume looks like.

      Good Luck!

      1. Go Mud Hens!*

        That’s very helpful, thank you! Please let me know if you have any recommendations for sources on how the CV should be different.

    2. Parenthetically*

      Do you live there at this point? Or would you be dependent on an employment-based visa to move there?

      Some friends of mine just moved to Germany, and despite the fact that both of them have advanced degrees and 10+ years of experience in their fields, and were (and are) working with recruiters, the majority of places where they applied wouldn’t interview them until they had already moved to Germany. One recruiter said that 90% of the companies he worked with had had an American applicant accept a job offer including a generous relocation bonus and start date and everything, and then just… ghosted, so they no longer will even start the process with someone who is still overseas. So that’s something to consider.

    3. YetAnotherUsername*

      Do not send thank you letters to interviewers! It would come across as really creepy and pushy.

      1. Go Mud Hens!*

        Hahaha, that’s great to know. I honestly find it creepy and pushy in the US but I know I’m in the minority.

  125. IckyIckIck*

    So I understand that sickness is going to spread and you can’t really blame one person if you catch something.

    I have a coworker who refuses to go home when he’s sick. Ever. We’re not talking like a residual cough at the end ofa cold. Like full on snotty, having to blow his nose every five seconds (or just snorting it back up and then coughing all over the place.) He’s also not great about covering his mouth. We have a big deadline coming up (but in like a month, not this week) and his claim is that if he goes home he’ll never make his deliverables.

    When I get sick I always get bronchitis and there are at least three days where it’s impossible for me to come in and decreased productivity for weeks because I’m exhausted from coughing, even if I didn’t care about getting my coworkers sick (which I do.) It’s not just a couple days of bad sniffles for me.

    Two questions: would it be bad to bring this up to my boss? “Can you please ask Joe to go home?” Second: would it be rude to wear a mask? I don’t work in a customer facing area so the only people who would see me are my coworkers.

    Sitting away from him isn’t an option. We both use very specific computers for our work and they’re located right next to each other.

    1. Profane Pencils*

      What industry do you work in? I work in healthcare, where masks are much more common, so I’m not sure on the social mores of other workplaces. I’m personally in favor of wearing one, and explaining very politely if asked that you have some immune concerns and need to make sure you stay healthy so you can do your work.

      You could go to your boss, but I would do so from a perspective that has little to do with Joe and everything to do with your health, i.e. “Cold and flu season is coming up. I have a history of bronchitis, so it’s extra important for me to be careful to stay healthy. I know we’re running on tight deadlines, and some members of our team are feeling the crunch and coming in when they’re under the weather. Is there something I could do to lessen my exposure–maybe move workstations*?”

      *even if it’s not an option, coming up with a proposal will make you appear more collaborative and focused on problem solving instead of complaining.
      Tone is everything, too. But the reality is, bronchitis can develop really serious complications, and it’s in the company’s best interest to encourage sick leave. I’ve heard of more than one immunocompromised person becoming seriously sick as a result of workplaces not encouraging sick leave more forcefully, and at least one took their former employer to court and won. Their case was especially severe, but the principle stands.

        1. valentine*

          Wear a mask and either get your computer moved or ask them to move him. I would struggle not to use the word quarantine.

    2. Jamie*

      I will always love one of my former workplaces for normalizing masks. Wear one when you’re under the weather or when someone else is, no one cared. Always a full stock of them to use as needed.

      Why can’t this be a universal custom?

      2. IckyIckIck*

        Thank you everyone who commented. I’m going to go get some masks to use tomorrow and if I do get sick then I’ll have a way to keep from spreading germs.

  126. tomatotomaahto*

    Does anyone have any advice on getting rid of a task that doesn’t fit in my job description?

    I took on part of my coworker’s job while she was on maternity leave, but now she’s leaving for good (happy for her!!) and I’m worried I’ll be stuck with it. Our jobs are really different… like, administrative specialist for Llama U vs Llama outreach. The task is a set (15+) complicated reports that are made more complicated because they frequently have incorrect data, the software that generates them is really old and spits them out in a really weird format, and because our VP wants them formatted completely differently than how they’re generated and in a really specific way. It ends up taking 6-8 hours to pull and format them, and that’s if I don’t find an accounting error.

    It would be way more efficient to have someone who’s job is more in the admin/accounting wheelhouse doing them. Or even someone who works in the department from which they originate (llama services). Asking me to do them is like having me do graphic design when we have two amazing designers already… I can fake it but nowhere near as well or as efficiently. I talked with coworker-who’s-leaving, and she said that she did them all these years because no one else wanted to deal with them and because she used to work in llama services, before transferring to our department, and has just kept them.

    I’m about to get a promotion (yay!!) which will require me to spend more of my time doing… llama events, and meeting with wealthy llamas in our area… and I’ll have even less time to fuss with the reports. Any advice on how to approach this with my boss? I’d like to point out that A) the reports are overly complicated (I doubt the big bosses realize we spend 1-2 entire days on them) and B) they don’t fit into my job description and C) they originated in llama services so can we please give them back to llama services. I’d settle for just B.

    1. Havarti*

      “Hi Boss, you know how I took over Report Task for Maternity Leave Coworker? Well she’s leaving and I want to talk to you about what the Report Task entails because I was happy to do it while she was on leave but it’s a complicated process that may not be the best use of my time especially since I’m being promoted to do XYZ. Here’s why: [explain process of pulling, cleaning, and reformatting reports, including amount of it takes and what happens if there’s errors]. Coworker did them because she came from X department originally and kept the task. Is there a way we can hand this off back to them or find someone else who can do them? Thanks!”

      Hope your boss is a reasonable individual. I’ve done the reports from hell myself and I was so happy when I was able to offload them onto someone else.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      “Hi Boss! When Amy went out for maternity leave, I took on her Llama Services reports. Now that we know she’s not coming back, we’ll need a plan for transitioning them to someone else. The reports are for the Llama Services team, and they really have the right accesses and skill set to produce this report efficiently, so can you find the right Llama Services person to take them?”

      1) Assume that of *course* this is not a permanent addition, and you were willing to help but now you need boss’s help with the long-term plan.
      2) List solid, business-related reasons (eg access to data) for why it needs to be in a different group

      Listing why it shouldn’t be under you is actually the weakest argument, since you have been doing them. List why it’s better for someone else.

      If there’s pushback, your fallback positions are:
      1) Explain the time sink, say that Llama Services might be able to do it faster since they are closer to the data, and
      2) Maybe it could be simplified and automated so that VP only needs to hit a button! and
      3) You’ll be more valuable to the company talking to donors than doing these reports!

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        #3 is most important – your company is promoting you presumably because you’re really good at schmoozing donors. They’re paying you to do that, not to create reports that your team doesn’t even do in the first place. Donor outreach is time consuming by itself – you can’t do that successfully and take two whole days creating a report for another department. Hopefully, your boss will see the logic in that and hand it back over to the other group where it belongs.

  127. Daisy*

    I have a new-ish coworker who is awful at taking social cues. She’s super chatty, and will come to my cubicle 10+ times a day to talk about both personal and work stuff (our work doesn’t overlap – she’s simply telling me about what she’s working on, how she likes it, what she doesn’t like, etc.)

    A lot of times, I’m busy, or in the middle of something that requires a lot of focus, and would just rather not chat (I’m a nice person, I promise!) I’ve always been a passive person, afraid to speak up in these types of situations. I finally got the courage this week to say when she starts talking, “Hey, sorry, I’m in the middle of something.” She’ll say, “oh sorry!” but then STILL stands literally right behind my chair, waiting for me to finish up whatever email, order, etc. that I’m working on. Just the presence of her just standing behind me, waiting for me to finish up whatever it is that I’m working on makes me lose focus. I usually end up just stopping what I’m doing to listen to her next ramble. When I say “I’m in the middle of something”, I’m not meaning that I’m going to be able to talk in two minutes; I’m not sure why she interprets it that way. Most of the work we do isn’t super time sensitive, which she knows. I think that’s the reason why she assumes I’m always available to chat. Honestly, her interruptions don’t affect my productivity *that* much – I still easily meet any deadlines I have. However, reasonably, I want to knock out some work for more than 30 minutes at a time without getting interrupted.

    Based on the things she’s told me about her personal life, I think she’s lonely and just wants someone to talk to. She recently got divorced, and her youngest child just went off to college. For instance, she’s told me multiple times how much she “loves going to overnight training seminars at our corporate office” because she “actually has someone to eat meals with.” Based on these circumstances, I feel bad being abrupt with her. I don’t want her to think I’m a mean person.

    Any advice?

    1. Profane Pencils*

      Oh this makes my skin crawl. I hate being interrupted.

      Honestly, next time she comes up to you and starts in on a tangent, I would say something along the lines of “Hey, I’m sorry, but I really need to focus and don’t have time to talk right now.” Alternatively, saying “Hey, I only have five minutes before I have to get back to this” and then sticking to that deadline is a really good middle-of-the-road option.
      If she sticks around, you could ask “Did you need something related to work?” and if the answer is no (or she takes this as a cue to start rambling about her work, and not something she needs from you) you can repeat yourself “I really need to buckle down, and having anyone in my space can be pretty distracting. Would you mind moving?” (you can add, if it’s true, “I can connect with you this afternoon/tomorrow morning”.

      She won’t think you’re mean. At worst, she’ll feel anxious and insecure about her behavior.

    2. CheeryO*

      Unfortunately, the options are either to have a pointed conversation, which I understand might be difficult (I’m super conflict-averse myself) in which you agree to either schedule time for chatting, or to just generally cut back on the number of chat sessions, or to be a tad more assertive in the moment and hope that she gets the hint. When she continues to stand there, you have to say something else, because she’s clearly not getting that you don’t want her to wait. Something like, “Sorry, could you come back later if it isn’t urgent? I’d like to get this wrapped up and I’m not sure how long it’ll take.”

      I totally feel for you. We have a couple of these types around the office, and they just do. not. get. the hint, and when they finally do, you feel like you kicked a puppy because you can see the gears in their head turning as they think, “Wait, no, Not supposed to interrupt her. Walking away now.”

    3. Parenthetically*

      “When I say “I’m in the middle of something”, I’m not meaning that I’m going to be able to talk in two minutes”

      Say this! It’s not abrupt at all!

      “Oh sorry, Jan, when I say I’m in the middle of something, I mean really in the middle of it — I could be an hour, or even a few hours, so I don’t want you to wait expecting me to be done soon so I can chat again. And generally, I find it disrupts my workflow to stop and chat during the work day!” And then… put your headphones back in.

      (Only if you really want to and have the mental energy for it, you might add, “But I’d love to hear more about how Hannah’s freshman year is going at lunch if you have time then!” And take the lead in the conversation to try to push it in a more productive direction. “Gosh, that sounds tough, being alone in your house! Have you thought of downsizing?” or “Yeah, it can be hard having to eat alone all the time — you know, I heard about this supper club…” or even “Oh, Jan! Good morning! Before I forget, I wanted to tell you — I picked this brochure up for you when I was out this weekend. It’s about a new Rotary Club chapter starting in your neighborhood, I bet that would be perfect for you right now! I’ve got a full schedule today but I hope you’ll think about it!” Obviously ignore all this if you don’t have the headspace for it, but if you generally like her and think it might be helpful, I don’t see the harm.)

    4. Jamie*

      I wish we could all introduce our overly chatty co-workers – they could chat to each other and we could get some peace in which to work.

    5. Ama*

      Oof, I used to have a boss like this — coworkers literally used to flee the break room when they saw her coming because she did not pick up on cues to end conversations, unfortunately since they were just peers and I was her report, they could mutter a quick “sorry, got to get to a meeting” where I had to deal with her dropping by my desk multiple times a day.

      I have to second being direct with her — I tried hinting at her a few times in our one on ones that my workload was high and it was hard to get things done with so many interruptions, and her response was to come talk to me MORE times a day. I later realized she processed her own job stress by talking through it and just didn’t get that it wasn’t the same for me (in fact just the opposite, the more stressed I get the more I want to avoid all human contact as much as possible). If I could go back in time, I’d try to be more direct with her — although I’m not quite sure how that would have gone over (I used to tell my now husband not to propose when I was at that job because I didn’t want to have to tell her she wasn’t invited to the wedding).

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Oy! The liberties bosses take!
        When one older manager started taking over younger employees’ break-time in the cafeteria by “holding court”, the employees simply quit taking breaks. It was maddening.
        (Everyone was exempt, so no law-breaking by skipping breaks.)

    6. Aphrodite*

      Do you like her as a person? If so, what do you think about setting up a once-a-week lunch date with you, even if it is just meeting in the lunchroom or a nearby park with bag lunches? That would give her something to look forward to, and it can also stand as an “excuse” (not that you need one) to say “I can’t chat now; I have too much work/work that is detailed so I have to stay focused.”

    7. juliebulie*

      When she lingers, tell her, “I’ll have to catch up with you later because I need to finish this thing.” (If you’re like me, you’ll never get around to catching up; but that’s up to you.)

      It’s not mean to establish boundaries. It is sort of mean, even if unintentional, not to respect someone else’s time.

  128. Talvi*

    Translink staff voted to approve a strike mandate yesterday. They’re back to bargaining next week, so the earliest they’re looking at taking job action is the 17th. I’m hoping it won’t get so far as a full stoppage of bus services, but it it comes to that, I can’t get to work.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for ways for me to get to work when all of the following apply?

    1) I don’t own a car (and couldn’t afford gas if I did)
    2) I have no family in the area to beg rides off of, and no friends I’m close enough to to even consider asking
    3) Assuming the Skytrain is still operating (it sounds like it’s a different union?), I can get to one work location on the train. But from there, I’m looking at anything from a 50-minute walk through an unsafe area to a 4.5-hour walk through an unsafe area (plus highways) to the rest of our locations.
    4) Remote work is not possible – my job is essentially filling in gaps in coverage when regular staff are on vacation or out sick or when they just need an extra person on hand during a busy period.
    5) I work very irregular shifts. I work at all of our locations, and could be filling a shift at any time of day, often a short 4.5-hour shift. Because my schedule is wildly different from week to week, trying to find someone to carpool with would essentially involve trying to arrange sometime with a different person every single shift (and because I provide coverage when people are out sick, I sometimes get called in for a shift the morning of).
    5b) Because my job also sometimes puts me in charge, our policy is that while I may accept rides if they’re offered, I cannot ask for a ride unless they’re at the same level as me.
    6) I can’t afford to take a cab. I only get scheduled about 15 hours a week, give or take – without being too specific, I earn little enough that I don’t currently have to pay MSP. (I am still actively trying to get either a second job or a full-time job… I just had a couple of interviews in the last couple of weeks, but no word yet.)
    6b) No Uber or Lyft or any other such services in the Lower Mainland yet.

    I’m desperately hoping that it won’t end up with a full stoppage of bus services – but if it does come to that, I’m hoping there’s some sort of realistic transport option that I’ve overlooked :/

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Bike, electronic bike, or motor scooters are the only other things I can think of, but may not be realistic given initial cost. (Electric scooters are illegal unfortunately).

      Are you working with any kind of social services office? Maybe they have ideas?

      1. Talvi*

        I forgot about bikes! I actually don’t own a bike either, as I find riding a bike tends to give me a headache for some reason, but that may be my best option if they do stop bus service entirely.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          google micromobility in [your city] to see about bike shares or other options. If you’re where I think you are based on ‘skytrain’, there’s multiple bike shares, though none electric. Electric scooters are illegal on public roads, and doesn’t look like that will change in time to cope with the strike. There were 3 wheeler electric assisted ‘VeloMetro’ shelled bikes at the university, with ‘plans to expand its service to the urban core’ soon, and the strike may affect that timing. Based on a company local to me with a similar product, they’re probably struggling to scale up production and have enough to be a ‘fleet’.

          1. Talvi*

            I will look into bike shares, thank you! Hopefully they’ll reach a deal when they go back to the bargaining table next week, but I saw the news this morning and had that sick dread that I have no idea what to do if they did strike…

    2. Asenath*

      It sounds like too big an area for the solutions used locally to work, which was basically walking everywhere regardless of distance etc. My distances weren’t too bad, but I frequently met someone who worked the kind of caregiver shifts that had split shifts in different locations – an early morning one, say, then a lunchtime one somewhere else, etc.

      Is is possible that people in a similar situation to yours will organize their own shared transportation, maybe not door to door, but from one major location to anther, and so cut back on the walking?

    3. Cloudy with sunny breaks*

      Are you signed up for car2go and Evo? I’m hoping the sky train will bring you into the ride share home areas but finding cars will be hard if they do strike. Bikes on sky train are a pain but it will cut your walk time down so much! Avoiding the highway will be a challenge but hopefully with a little exploring a good route can be found. Good luck from a fellow non car owner who, it sounds like, is more centrally located and is between contracts so doesn’t have to worry about a schedule.

      1. Talvi*

        I’m not signed up for those, but I’ll definitely look into that. It would help a lot (although I expect you’re right that they’ll be oversubscribed if they do strike).

        I actually live relatively centrally, and if I were still between contracts/unemployed, I wouldn’t be bothered by this at all. It’s my work that’s very much not.

  129. Thany*

    I have a very difficult question to ask, and please no judgment. I’m pregnant and we recently found out some medical issues with the baby, so it’s possible we might end my pregnancy. My question is how to explain (or not explain) the situation to my office? I’ve already started showing and several people know I am pregnant. I’m not sure how to explain that I no longer am, if they ask (especially without bursting into tears). Does anyone have any advice?
    Thank you.

    1. merp*

      I don’t have any advice, it’s not something I’ve ever been through, but I wanted to tell you I’m so sorry you’re going through this, and I hope you have the chance to do whatever might help you take care of yourself – maybe take some time off? Or see a counselor to talk through the grief, if that’s what happens?

      Wishing you well, stranger.

      1. Thany*

        Thank you.

        I actually have a therapist I see regularly for other issues, so I will definitely keep seeing her as I go through this. I spoke with HR about taking time. I’m not eligible for FMLA (as I am still new on the job), but they were very supportive in having me take time if I need. We will see.

    2. Mediamaven*

      I’m sorry for what you are going through. Can you elevate it to someone in charge to deliver the message and let people know if you wold prefer it not be talked about (or however you want it addressed). The sad truth is that if people know you are pregnant, you’ll have to deal with uncomfortable questions if it’s not hit head on, and that may be far worse than having someone else share the sad news. In terms of how to voice it, can you say there were unfortunate complications and the pregnancy won’t make it to term?

    3. chizuk*

      Is there one person you can talk to and ask to spread it around? No needed for details, just “can you tell people we lost the baby and I don’t want to talk about it?” If people are sensitive, that should be all you need. If people aren’t sensitive… :(

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would suggest keeping it brief and just saying “Sadly we lost the pregnancy.”

      If you burst into tears, that’s natural and they should know better than to be so meddlesome. I would just assume that if a woman was showing and expecting…then wasn’t anymore, it was a loss of the baby. It’s none of their business if you choose to terminate or if your body were to do it itself.

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this hard time. Your grief and pain are real. I hope that you and your support network is strong. I have seen many women go through the loss of a pregnancy due to medical issues and it’s an awful time, your feelings are justified and real. Please seek counseling if you can, it’ll help you. If you are with the partner, which it sounds like you are by the “we” speak, please know this is a difficult time for both of you and you both should seek counseling for the loss.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        I think this makes sense. I also want to add, I’m so, so sorry, Thany. My heart goes out to you.

    5. BlueWolf*

      I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I can’t say I have any experience remotely close to your situation, but could you possibly just tell one person at work who you trust that you lost the baby (maybe HR or your manager if you need some time off)? No one needs to know the details of how the pregnancy ended. Then they can hopefully discretely inform your colleagues and you won’t need to have that difficult conversation with every person at work. And I second merp’s suggestion to see a counselor as well.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m so sorry. I wonder if you could ask one person to tell the others that you lost the pregnancy (which might not be technically true, but it’s obviously a loss to you). And ask them to stress that you do not want to talk about it, at all.

    7. Jamie*

      I am so sorry. I agree with going with you lost the baby and the specifics are no one else’s business.

      I lost a baby just shy of 20 weeks and I know how hard it is once you’ve been showing and obviously pregnant to deal with the questions, no matter how normal.

      And if you burst into tears that’s normal, too. Just excuse yourself and remember we’re all human…more than just worker bees.

    8. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’m so sorry.

      I’m also pregnant and while I haven’t announced at work yet, I’ve been thinking about what I’d do in this situation. I’d probably send an email to my boss saying “I’m heartbroken to share that I’ve lost the pregnancy. I’d like to ask you to share this update with the team and let them know I don’t wish to discuss this at work.”

      If you haven’t announced to your whole team, I’d probably send the same message to a friend and ask them to share the update.

    9. CheeryO*

      I’m so sorry. Just to comment on the tears part, I’m sure there will be emotional moments, and that’s okay. Just do your best. People may not know what to say, but they will understand.

    10. Jules the 3rd*

      You have my deepest sympathy, and if it matters what a random internet stranger says: it’s your life, your decision.

      I think ‘we lost the baby’ is all you need to say. Tears are ok in this situation.

      Feel free to ask your manager to tell the team, and to give the team guidance on how you want them to deal with it (ie, ‘please don’t ask Thany about it’ or ‘Expressions of sympathy are fine, but please respect Thany’s privacy.’) EVEN WITH THE MANAGER, all you need to say is, ‘we lost the baby. can you help me let the team know?’

      Look for support outside of the office, because if you share any medical details and decisions, there is gonna be that one jerk who can’t keep their judgy mcjudgeness to themselves. Just don’t give them that opening.

    11. Thany*

      Hello,
      Thank you for everyone’s supportive comments.
      I should clarify my working situation, because it’s a little bit complicated. I work with a non profit agency but the office I work out of is at a different location where different departments work out of. Although most people at my agency know, they don’t see me regularly enough. My office includes two other people on my team, but my boss is deaf and doesn’t have the same relationship I do with others in the office. So I assumed I would be the one having to field everyone’s questions.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Send one email to the core people, and make it something like, ‘We lost the baby. I am very sad about this, but Partner and I are working with our support teams to get through it. I would appreciate your sympathy, but do not want to discuss our loss in detail at work. It’s just too overwhelming. Please share this as needed.’

        A request for privacy, balanced with a little vulnerability.

        The most likely intrusions will be from mothers, either sharing their own stories of loss in sympathy or asking what happened in hopes of finding something for them to avoid and so stay safe themselves. Either way, once you’ve sent that email, you can cut into their stories / questions with ‘Thank you for your sympathy, I can’t talk about it right now. Bye.’ with maybe a ‘please email me if you need something for work’.

        Usually Alison recommends continuing the conversation with a subject change, but I think that would be hurtful to you and / or risk speculation about ‘suppressing her grief’ or ‘callousness.’ Just end it and walk away. You can do that.

      2. Not Alone*

        I’m so sorry for what you’re going through, Thany. I was in your situation ten years ago, when we found out that our child had a congenital defect that was incompatible with life and we made the heartbreakingly difficult decision to terminate the pregnancy at 27 weeks. I did not feel comfortable telling anyone at work about our choice and used language similar to what has been suggested in this thread: that we had “lost the baby / pregnancy.” I told my supervisor and asked that she spread the news prior to me returning to work and everyone was kind and understanding when I did get back in after my procedure. I hope you experience the same. If you don’t feel as if your supervisor could provide that role, then maybe there is someone else you trust?

        I also wanted to give you a heads up that the time following baby’s due date was excruciatingly difficult for me. I knew that I wasn’t supposed to be at work; that I should be at home, on maternity leave, and it was as if the grief was as fresh as the days following my child’s death. I hope that you and your partner have the support you need, both now and for all the hard “firsts.” You are in my thoughts…

    12. Breast Solidarity*

      I am so sorry!

      I agree with others that a simple, “we lost the baby” is enough. Hopefully there is one trustworthy person at work who could spread the message and also let people know if you really don’t want to talk about it.

  130. Willow*

    Should I ask for a raise now or wait?

    My boss has been dealing with medical issues for nearly three months now, and I’ve had to do a lot of her job, on top of my own. There may be an end in sight (which would be best all around–my boss has been really suffering, and I want to see her well for her own sake), but this may continue for who knows how long. I’ve gotten a good amount of support from grandboss, including a little extra help and a lightening of overall group workload, but I’m still doing more work than should be expected out of a single person.

    I was already intending to ask for a raise when reviews are done later this year because even before this my responsibilities have grown since I was hired several years ago–and my salary has been stagnant. The question is, should I try to capitalize on the current situation and ask for a raise now? Or do I wait until reviews are completed later this year (or early next–it’s unclear when they’ll happen)?

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      100% ask for a raise at the end of the year (which scarily is only a few months away) if it’s not standard to ask outside of review time, but I think you can ask for a general update on the situation. Alison has some good scripts so definitely poke around in the archives, but something along the lines of “I wanted to check in with you regarding the current status of my role. I know we’ve all been so worried about Jane – it’s been wonderful to see her receive support from the company during this difficult time, and I’ve been happy to help out in a pinch, but it’s been three months and I want to know what the plan is for the future.”

      Something along those lines, hopefully they have something useful beyond “oh just do two jobs for the foreseeable future”. If they don’t offer anything concrete, then I think you could go with “Again while I was happy to help out in a pinch, covering both my and Jane’s responsibilities just isn’t tenable long term, especially at my current title/compensation”.

      It’s not a perfect or a complete script, but I think it’s some good talking points to get you started.

      1. Willow*

        Well, the ultimate plan is that I take over boss’s job when she retires, which should be in a couple years. (Grandboss confirmed that in one of our discussions during all of this.) But you’re right. If this continues, and boss doesn’t get better soon, I’ll need to push for a longer-term solution/plan.

    3. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

      I’ve been wrestling with this myself – I was likely going to bring it up in my review.

    4. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

      I’d ask for the raise now because every company I’ve ever worked for decided how raises were allocated months before performance reviews were finalized. If your company does something similar, they may not have the budget to give you more unless they take some away from another one of your coworkers.

  131. FrustratedWithAdmin*

    I’m sort of at the end of my rope with the Admin in our office. Ever since I have started here (six years Tuesday) she has spent a large amount of time screaming at her kids on her phone (she has six), screaming at customer service reps and complaining about work slights.

    For awhile it got better. But a few moths ago she found out her ex is getting remarried and ever since then it’s been non-stop. She spent HOURS berating her youngest daughter on the phone for agreeing to go to his wedding (which I disagree with morally never mind work wise.) She spends so much time in my office complaining about that and other things. And then when anyone gives her work to do she claims she has too much on her plate.

    And she just doesn’t do the stuff we give her to do. Or takes a long time. Or makes drastic mistakes. We already don’t trust her with high level admin stuff (and do it ourselves) but now even the routine stuff.

    Our managers aren’t doing anything about it. They are as annoyed as anyone else but a PIP won’t work because we all know they’d never terminate. But it’s not just that she isn’t doing the work right now but she’s incredibly distracting.

    1. chizuk*

      I worked with someone like this a decade ago and this just took me back. Endless shouting on the phone to her kids and her husband.

      Can you wear headphones and try to drown out hte noise?

    2. WellRed*

      Put the problem with the work on your managers. Repeat often and necessary. And feel free to tell your coworker that you find her conversations distracting and uncomfortable.

    3. CatCat*

      She spends so much time in my office complaining about that and other things.

      This is something you should be able to nip in the bud by kicking her out of your office. “Oh, look at the time, I need to get back to work. Talk to you later.” And turn away from her. “Oh, I have a call. Could you shut the door on your way out?”

      1. FrustratedWithAdmin*

        Oh, I do that. I feel like I’ve gotten rude about it lately (which is really not me). But she’s oblivious. You’d have to physically force her out to make her stop.

        1. CatCat*

          Uuuuuuggggghhhh. I think it may be a stand up and show her the door type of scenario then. Sounds exhausting.

    4. Colette*

      Have you directly asked her to keep it down? You can’t make her work, but you can speak up about the yelling.

  132. Mbarr*

    Any tips on setting up automatic job alerts? I’m not quite ready to jump ship from my new job, but I want to be aware if something good comes up. (New job has soooo many politics, and I’m out of my depth in my role.)

    The thing is, I don’t have a defined career path. I’m a Jill of All Trades, so I don’t know what keywords to search for. I enjoy working with technology, and with people. I’m a fast learner and can chameleon my way into most jobs… Just not the job I’m in right now.

    My job history:
    1. Tech Writer (by the time I left, I wasn’t writing -I was coordinating the other writers and working with the developers to get our content on our website)
    2. Analyst – I was supporting a company’s rollout of SAP. So I set up dashboards, developed training, trained users, worked with IT to improve the implementation.
    3. Analyst – I joined a project team that was rolling out SAP for their Finance department. I started by developing and leading training. Then after rollout was complete, I was transitioned to helping implement various Finance department initiatives (e.g. creating processes, streamlining activities, etc. Whatever management wanted to happen, I helped make it happen.)
    4. Current role > Product Owner of a Cloud Application framework… But I don’t understand what the software engineers are talking about, and I don’t know how to assist them when I don’t know what they’re saying.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      What about a business analyst in IT? it sounds like you have relevant experience from your SAP rollout and current job, in particular. IT business analysts where I work (biotech) do similar work, usually on multiple projects (or just one, if it’s big enough).

  133. Foreign Octopus*

    TL:DR: Applied for a remote proofreading job. Got a slightly strangely-worded email back. Need the AAM hive’s advice.

    Is this a red flag?

    I applied for a remote proofreading job on Thursday using Alison’s advice for a cover letter and CV (seriously, I nailed both of them), and I got a response back fairly quickly – literally, within the hour. Please find attached a document in dire need of checking. Do what you can with it, and send it back to us. (The bolding was their emphasis, not mine.)

    This concerned me, so I sent an email back asking them to clarify that it was a trainee document and wouldn’t be sent to a client, which they confirmed. But, honestly, their wording in the initial email still makes me hesitate. Should I take their speed in getting back to me, and this wording as red flags? I should point out that this is a legitimate company, but their reviews on Glassdoor are mixed.

    I need another job to bring extra money in, but I’m not going to starve/go homeless without it.

    2. Lady Dedlock*

      It’s very common for proofreading/editing jobs to require a proofreading test, but I agree this response seems shady. The proofreading test is normally part of a larger interview process. If they want you to do the test before coming in for an interview, they should say that, and you should still have a window of a few days to be able to complete the proofreading test according to your availability. You should not be expected to jump on it ASAP.

      You might reply and tell them when you can reasonably get it back to them, and ask them what else the interview process entails.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        This is the first contact I’ve had with them outside of submitting my CV and cover letter. To their credit, they did say that I should take as long as I like with the assessment and get it back to them. It’s just the phrase in dire need of checking that threw up a red flag for me. It seems a weird way to describe an assessment test.

        1. Lady Dedlock*

          Agreed, that is weird. The only explanation I can think of is that it could be much more poorly written than anything you’d encounter with a real assignment, just to see what you do with text that’s really a mess. That’s what we do at my office when we to hire editors. But that’s not at all the way I’d describe the task to a prospective candidate. You could put out more feeler questions if you’re feeling uncertain, like, “Would you prefer me to query things that are unclear or attempt to repair them?

        2. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

          This is a red flag. Why would they send this to you before speaking with you to determine whether you even understand the position or even if you guys are on the same page salary-wise? Assessments usually come after or during the interview process. That, combined with the poor writing in the email, makes me think this company is trying to get free work out of applicants and have no real intention of hiring someone full time. I’d keep looking if I were you.

      2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Ditto that. At best, these folks sound pretty flaky/clueless about hiring a proofreader (could be they’ve never hired one before?). But if this isn’t a job you totally need, it doesn’t sound too attractive. You might take it to the next step to get a clearer understanding of them and see how it shakes out, but…

    3. Parenthetically*

      Haha what? Yes, the wording struck me as EXTREMELY odd. It sounds like a friend sending you something to look over for them, not an interviewing company asking you to do a proofing test. And the random bolding — like someone who doesn’t quite know how to use html got a little crazy with the html?

      I don’t know that the wording/bolding alone would make me withdraw, but I agree that it’s something to keep your antenna up about.

    4. Goldfinch*

      That wording reads to me as written by an ESL speaker. It could just be a matter of a non-native speaker handling the hiring process. You are an international AAMer, correct? How common is English fluency in your area, and in the area in which the company operates?

    5. Weegie*

      Honestly? I’m always pretty sceptical about any organisation that actually advertises a proofreading job – when they do, they get so many applications that the process quickly spirals out of control. Companies who use proofreaders frequently generally recruit via word of mouth or via proofreaders’/editors’ professional associations – even then, a friend of mine who hears of jobs via his association still gets some fairly dodgy job ads sent to him; I also experienced this when I was still a freelance editor.

      That said, sending out a test to weed out the incompetent from the competent is pretty common. The wording describing the task is indeed a little odd, but as Goldfinch suggests, it might have been written by someone whose first language is not English.

      I’d say proceed with caution, keep an eye out for any bigger red flags, and don’t necessarily expect anything to come of it.

  134. Lady Dedlock*

    If you had the opportunity to design a remote-work policy for your office, what would it be?

    Context: I work in a research center at a college that basically doesn’t have a remote work policy. We’ve historically been very fuzzy on policies in general, and as a result, how much you’re allowed to work remotely and how much notice you have to give varies substantially from manager to manager. Some employees have jobs that can’t be done remotely, but many have jobs that could be done 100% remotely, and a handful of employees are 100% remote due to various circumstances.

    My boss, who’s been around forever, says that we don’t like people to work from home more than two days a week, but to me, this seems like a pretty arbitrary number–and hard to justify when we have some people we’ve permitted to go remote because they’ve moved to a new city.

    We’re going to be establishing some new office-wide policies over the coming months, and this is one of the areas we’ll definitely focus on. What would you advocate for–more freedom to work remotely whenever, for whatever reason, or more days in office for everyone to promote collaboration and teambuilding? (I have my own opinions, but what works best for me shouldn’t necessarily be office policy.)

    1. Lady Dedlock*

      To clarify: The college doesn’t technically permit remote work, but our office does, and nobody at the college has a problem with it.

    2. Parenthetically*

      IMO as far as frequency, the ideal remote policy is something like, “Our office-wide meeting days 2nd and 4th Tuesdays; with few exceptions people need to plan to be in-office then. Other than that, WFH or in the office as you choose.”

    3. Allypopx*

      It depends on what the needs of the office are. Needs, not preferences. Have some blackout dates that no one can work from home if you really need people in the office, with a note to have someone talk to their manager if there’s a conflict so commonsense exceptions can be made. Say they need to be in the office on days there are big meetings that they need to be a part of, maybe. Set an amount of notice the manager should have about upcoming work from home days. And then let people do what they want. I always advocate giving employees as much freedom as is possible as long as the work is getting done.

    4. Insurance Worker*

      Our competitors allow full time work from home positions after 6 months training period and when you’re not on a PIP. Our company’s CEO apparently doesn’t like work from home and thus in 6 years we have had waves of what was accepted vs. not acceptable that varied from 5 days a week in office to 2 days work from home to 50% work from home.

      The reported reason is that there was a breach of some kind by someone at home. I find that to be less likely now based on how our systems are set up, and think it’s used as a justification when really the CEO just has a preference against it.

      So with that in mind, I would personally have a good reason for whatever policy is decided on. We’ve had a policy where people over X distance from work could telecommute full time; we’ve had it where it can be an accommodation due to a medical concern or part of FMLA, and we’ve had wider spread everyone can as long as work is getting done and you’re at least 6 months with the company. It is constantly threatened to be taken away though. That is something I would try to avoid if it were my company. To many people it’s a term of employment and a reason to leave due to long commutes in my area. Being very clear about it being based on business needs and performance would also be something I would ensure I included. In my position, most people are managed remotely and most of their team is remote as well so if that’s the case, being in office for collaboration and teambuilding doesn’t make much sense. If the job requires people to be on site, that would make sense.

  135. circuit girl*

    I recently got a job offer and am wondering if a few things I saw during the interview/offer process are red flags. I’d appreciate any insight!

    -I was given a detailed schedule for the interview and was told I’d be given lunch. The interview deviated from the schedule (two extra meetings I wasn’t told about ahead of time, and keeping me there for an hour longer than I was scheduled for) and I wasn’t given lunch until I specifically asked around 2pm.
    – Had a call with the hiring manager this morning where he told me a post negotiation salary number and asked if I “would accept it.” I thought I made it clear during the call that I wasn’t going to be negotiating salary further, and that I’d be waiting to see the paperwork before making a final decision on whether to accept the offer. A few hours later I got a text from my friend who’d referred me saying “heard you accepted the offer! I’m excited to work with you.” (sidenote: is “verbal offer” a common thing? Why am I being asked to agree to something before I’ve seen the official terms?) This makes me worry that the miscommunication may point to a larger problem
    -During the same conversation this morning, I was asked what a good start date was, and said that because I’m the only point person for a project at my current job, I would want to take six weeks to wrap up the project and transition off of it. My company is very small and I don’t want to hang them out to dry in the middle of a tight deadline. I was told “six weeks is going to be a big problem”, and agreed to a tentative start date 3 weeks out.

    I’m only a year out of school and am still very new to all of this job stuff, but all this stuff points to a possible problem with lack of respect for my time and I’m wondering what you all think! And any comments about if I should have handled things differently are welcome :)

    1. Colette*

      I’m confused about what happened here. As I understand it, you were offered a job and reached what you thought was an agreement on salary. You then asked for some paperwork. The hiring manager then asked if you’d accept another (lower, I assume) salary. (What did you say?)

      I think they see this as a verbal offer that you have accepted; you see it as an offer that you are considering but are not committed to until you see a formal, written offer.

      I think you need to clarify – quickly – whether you are going to take the offer or not. If you have questions you need answers to, get them, now. And find out whether there is any actual paperwork coming your way.

      As far as your notice period, 6 weeks is well outside the norm. Three weeks is far more reasonable.

      1. circuit girl*

        Sorry, to clarify, I was offered a job, negotiated the salary to something a little higher than the initial verbal offer, and said “This number sounds good to me,” which I think was interpreted as an acceptance of the offer. The number hasn’t changed since then.

        1. Colette*

          So they think you have accepted but you don’t? You really need to sort that out.

          What information do you need know to accept (or reject) the offer? Ask for that information now – don’t wait on a written offer.

    2. Ex-libris*

      Some of this is field dependent. In my experience of academia, the day-of schedule can get deterred if deans get pulled away or become suddenly available. The lunch is a yellow flag but I wouldn’t reject a place based on it, I’d more assume a hectic day.

      In my academic experience, written offer letters are the norm, but I’ve never received one in my work outside of academia. Verbal offers are the norm, but if you ask for an email summarizing it written out (or send it yourself) for confirmation, that’s not out of line.

      My last new job allowed me to do a six week start date, 4 weeks for my employer and 2 weeks to move states. I don’t think I’ve ever been able to give six weeks notice though. That’s pretty lengthy.

    3. MissBliss*

      I wouldn’t be worried about getting a verbal offer– I’ve always had offers come through verbally first, and usually accepted them that way. You may receive a verbal offer and say “The salary sounds good to me, but I’d like to take a look at the full package before formally accepting.” and then wait to review additional materials.

      I also don’t think being told waiting 6 weeks is too much of a red flag. Maybe an orange flag. But if they have a long hiring period, they may be dying to get a new person in the door. They may need to get you trained before X event or Y season.

      I’d be a little annoyed at the lunch thing– by 2pm I am STARVING– but the fact that you were added to 2 meetings wouldn’t throw me too much. If there was someone important for you to meet and they suddenly had time to meet you, then that makes sense. But it also depends– you said an hour longer than you were supposed to be there. Were you scheduled to be there for an hour, and it became two? I wouldn’t blink. But from 2 hours to 3, or 3 to 4, would be a lot. Especially without lunch.

      1. circuit girl*

        I appreciate your response! And the script you wrote is basically what I said. I’m worried it will be considered reneging if I decide to decline the offer – I was told I have until Monday to respond.

        It was supposed to be a 2.5 hr on-site starting at 11:30 that became 3.5. The two extra meetings didn’t bother me as much as the lack of communication about the schedule change, and the fact that I took the morning off of work and was now going to be an hour later to work than what I’d told my boss.

        1. WellRed*

          Oh, ugh. yeah, that and the six weeks is too long! make me see orange. They don’t care about your time.

    4. Tea and Sympathy*

      But you have a friend who works for this company, right? What does she say about the company culture?

  136. curiousLemur*

    I’m trying to understand billable hours better. If it helps, this is for a software developer who’s an independent contractor. I’ve googled billable hours, but I don’t think I really have a handle on it.

    1. MissBliss*

      I’m no expert, but I think this might be helpful…

      Let’s say you know an independent contractor named Archie who works 12pm-6pm every day, and has two clients. Client A has one project and Client B has two projects.

      1. Archie spends 12-1pm every day responding to emails and phone calls from prospective clients. Those are not billable hours.
      2. Between 1pm-3pm, he’s working on Project 1 for Client B. Those are billable hours.
      3. Project 2 for Client B is a new project, so it’s just in the research phase. From 3:15pm-4:45pm Archie works on research for the project; billable.
      4. Client A’s project has an issue that Archie theoretically knows how to solve, but it’s proving difficult, so he’s signed up for a webinar from 5-6pm that’s all about the topic at hand. That’s probably not billable to Client A, because it’s more professional development. But if Archie had spent that hour working on the problem with Client A’s actual information, it could very well be billable. And Archie may still be able to bill for the webinar if the issues are discussed with the client in advance.

    2. LilySparrow*

      Billable hours = work time that pertains to a specific client’s contract or project. It may include research, planning time, internal or external meetings, and all sorts of tasks, but they are for the purpose of fulfilling that assignment.

      Nonbillable time = work that maintains or grows your general business capacity, like professional development, preparing invoices or backing up your hard drive. If you’re working for yourself, you will have an appreciable amount of nonbillable time in your week, which is why you need to set your rates high enough to cover those costs.

      Sometimes the line between billable & nonbillable is going to depend on the contract terms and industry convention, or on the circumstances of a given situation.

      Taking a client to lunch for general networking/goodwill? Not billable. Grabbing lunch while you hammer out the details of the next phase in the project? Billable.

      Sometimes there may be situations like learning a new tool or attending an event, that could be partially billable to one or more clients. That’s really dependent on circumstances, and you should discuss those sorts of scenarios with the client as they come up.

  137. LilySparrow*

    Another pronoun question – I’ve been assigned to a new client-facing project, and we will meet on a conference call Monday.

    The client has a traditionally feminine name (like Angela) and clearly presents as a woman in the company bio and email avatar photos. The email signature line designates pronouns “She/Her/They/Them.”

    I haven’t seen this construction before. Does it mean that she/her is preferred, but either way is fine? Or does it mean their preference may change from day to day and I should always check?

    Of course I don’t mind checking, but I also don’t want to draw attention to it if there is a convention here that I’m just not familiar with. I don’t want to exasperate a new client if they’ve already tried to make it clear.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I think that if someone is going to the effort of indicating their pronouns so other people will know what to use, they would be likely to note if certain pronouns are sometimes OK and sometimes not. I’ve seen people put “ask me for my pronouns” in spaces where other people have indicated their pronouns, when that’s the case. I would presume that either she/her or they/them pronouns are OK with the person in question, and that neither will offend. But you can always ask! To make it easier, when you introduce yourself, you can say, “Hi Angela, this is LilySparrow. Nice to meet you! I use she and her pronouns (or whatever).” Likely, Angela will introduce herself in kind.

    2. circuit girl*

      As far as I’ve seen, it means the client is okay with using either set of pronouns and doesn’t have a preference.

      It’s possible, but less likely, that the client does have a day-to-day preference, and I think if you’re really worried about it, it’s okay to ask. Most of my trans/nb friends say they’d rather be asked than to have someone butcher their pronouns.

    3. LGC*

      I swear someone asked this on a weekend thread recently – from Angela’s perspective! (I think she wanted to know if they could use “she”/”they” – she said she identified as female iirc.)

      I’d take it as an either/or, myself. She’s saying that they’re comfortable with either “she” or “they.” (I did this intentionally.) But also, they’re offering their pronouns to you – so you’re on solid ground in asking her for clarification, I think.

    4. Alice*

      I also use she/they, as do some of my friends, meaning is that either is fine. Personally I use ‘she’ but I’m not put off when people refer to me as ‘they’. I started doing this because I don’t want people to find out I’m a woman and worry they shouldn’t have been using ‘they’.

      I haven’t really seen anyone change their pronoun preferences from day to day, usually when people change pronouns it’s more like “hey I’ve always used female pronouns but actually I’m nb so I’d prefer if you used they/them from now on”.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        I have only heard of a few very rare cases of day-to-day changes – through advice columns, actually – not in my personal experience either.

        Thanks all!

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I do this in my social and hobby life, although not yet at work. While I do have some situational preferences between he or they, both are completely acceptable to me and I’m never going to look askance at anyone choosing one or the other.

      If you do decide to ask, I would do so with the client privately if possible, to avoid putting them on the spot in front of a larger group.

    2. WellRed*

      Nope, nope nope. I was in and out with a cold and bronchitis last year. Then developed pink eye at which point I texted my boss and said “I’m out!”

    3. Construction Safety*

      A year ago, my boss came to work with an open boil on his leg. Yes, he was wearing shorts.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Pink eye or just an eye infection? Because I get eye infections all the time but they are not contagious. They do however look much like pink eye.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      Pink eye is not more contagious than a cold and often it’s viral so it’s exactly as contagious as a cold. Wash hands and wipe off surfaces. Now if the boss came to work with MEASLES I’d be up for throwing some things. That’s super contagious.

  139. 99ProblemsButABagAint1*

    Hello all. I was wondering if anyone else has been in this situation.

    Recently at an all-staff retreat, the company I work for gave everyone these very nice computer bags (backpack style). They are really nice, however, two years ago, for another role that required travel, I splurged on a much nicer backpack bag (over 5X the value of the one I just received). It was a little extravagant but the backpack I bought fits my needs and style exactly and after two years and frequent travel, the bag still looks brand new.

    During the remaining days, I noticed more and more people switching out to the new company branded backpacks they received. When people post on social media about working from a cafe, or a more exotic location, the bag is usually in the shot. I have no intention of switching, but wonder if that is considered rude.

    I use this backpack the same way women who like large purses use them. I keep A LOT in it. An umbrella, multiple charging cords (including those to devices I don’t use in case someone near me is in a pinch (which happens often), headache, stomach, and sinus issue medicines, antiseptic wipes, a jacket, etc. etc. etc. Honestly, the bag that I got for work, could not hold everything I carry when I use this backpack. Which is why I hope that the consensus isn’t leaning towards switching it out for these work trips, because then I would basically need two bags.

    I know this question is silly in nature, but I hate to see this great bag that I am not using go to waste, and would love to give it to a relative who could use a nice computer bag. What are your thoughts

    1. Colette*

      Give it to your relative. You already have a bag that works for you; you’re not obligated to change.

      1. Mediamaven*

        But the company gave it to their employee not the employee’s relative. It should be returned so they can give it to someone else in the company.

        1. Colette*

          I’m assuming this is a company-branded product, like a t-shirt or other swag the company gave to their employees as a gift. If that’s the case, they won’t want it back – the event is over. I’ve gotten company t-shirts I’ve never worn, as well as mugs, keychains, etc. and in no case was there the expectation that I’d give it back if I didn’t want it.

          Now, if they bought new laptop bags for the company and everyone was issued one, that would be company property.

          1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

            Exactly. I give away company branded stuff I don’t want all the time.

    2. AppleStan*

      I would hold off on giving it away, because you never know when your company is going to say “Hey let’s have a group shot of everyone using their computer bags.”

      I also don’t think you should feel obligated to use it. In my head, I’m thinking most of the people who are using it simply didn’t have anything like it, or as nice as this one, so this is a benefit that they COULD use, whereas it’s something you don’t really need.

      Like say you lived next door to work…you wouldn’t always need your designated parking space, but someone who has to commute an hour one way would probably greatly appreciate that perk, thus, they would use it.

      And who knows…if something (heaven forfend) happened to your awesome bag, you have a backup until you invest in a new one.

      1. 99ProblemsButABagAint1*

        Thank you. I feel wasteful keeping it, but plan on it just in case. Who knows, I may pack it in my suitcase for the next trip and make an appearance with it.

    3. Mediamaven*

      I bought my whole team branded backpacks. I bought them because they were treating their laptops like garbage and they were breaking, getting scratched etc.. I told them that they could either use the back pack or not, but if they didn’t, they needed to use a company approved laptop bag. I would not give the bag to a relative because that was DEFINITELY not the intention, but give it back to the company! It’s really theirs!

      1. 99ProblemsButABagAint1*

        I appreciate your input as a business owner, because this company is rather small, but they are doing well enough to put everyone up in a resort. Would giving it back be considered rude? I am concerned it would come off as the bag isn’t up to my standards. I was a little concerned about what I would say if asked why I wasn’t using it because I felt like people were looking at me as I quickly became the minority not using it.

        It felt like a “Curb Your Enthusiasm” moment. :)

        1. Mediamaven*

          Not at all. I don’t use my own company backpack because I myself have a preferred fancy bag. I would just say I splurged on this bag (or my parent whatever) bought me this special bag so I want to use it until it’s all worn out! I mean, how awful to have a special bag and be told you can’t use it. I’m mean some people might get butthurt but I wouldn’t. I would however, be very pissed if you gave it away!

      2. Joielle*

        If that was your intent, though, why didn’t you make it explicit that the bag is company property, like the laptop, and they’ll have to return it if they leave? Otherwise, it’s not “really” the company’s property, you gave it as a gift, and you have no right to it anymore.

        1. Mediamaven*

          It has the company logo on it. I said take one if you will use it. If you don’t take one, you need to have a company approved laptop bag or backpack. I never addressed if they leave, although if it’s in good shape it would be nice for them to leave it for the next person. It’s not about having a right to something, it’s simply about being respectful of something that was provided with an intended purpose. I did not say, take one and if you don’t want to use it, give it to a friend. It honestly boggles my mind how people have no regard for stuff that’s paid for with someone else’s money.

          If it was a unbranded gift that’s a different story.

          1. Deb Morgan*

            I think your situation is very different from other companies, and you are making this very personal when it’s not. It’s a bag.

            1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

              Right. None of the companies I’ve worked for have cared one way or the other what we did with their branded stuff once the ey gave it to us. Mediamaven, your experience is not the norm from what I can tell.

              1. Mediamaven*

                We are a small business and we are not buying stuff for people to regift. I bought the bags for people to carry their company issued laptops in because they were being damaged because they weren’t being cared for. I explicitly stated that. I would be very irritated if someone took a backpack, gave it as a gift for someone else and continued to transport their laptop in a sloppy manner. I’m not sure why this is a confusing concept. I told everyone it wasn’t mandatory to use it – that also means not mandatory to take one and give to someone else.

          2. WellRed*

            But branded or not, it’s still a gift in this case. A gift. Not a wrist rest or ergo chair or laptop. A gift, which implies it’s the receivers to do with as they wish. As with all gifts

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Swag lover here! If you don’t need the bag, you could pass it on to someone who needs one, maybe a student. Or hang onto it just in case the old one breaks or tears.

  140. Library Land*

    I just wanted to say quickly, that on National Coming Out Day to all the readers who need it – I wish you peace, safety, and love. I am thinking about you and you are worthy.

  141. AppleStan*

    This is more of a vent…there is nothing to be done at this point but wait for the fallout.

    About 5 or 6 weeks back, I discussed a situation where 3 internal candidates (Cersei, Sansa, and 3rd person) applied for a new position which would report directly to me. Cersei (and I) are managers who report to Jaime, and both Sansa and the 3rd candidate report to Cersei. Jaime and I developed the new position with the intention of moving Sansa into the position (there were many many many reasons for this, all approved and cleared by HR, who supervised the development of the position), but back when Jaime and I were initially brain-storming about the position, Jaime mentioned it to Cersei who was very upset that she was not considered for this position.

    Fast-forward…although Sansa and 3rd person were interviewed, Cersei was not. This was mostly due to scheduling conflicts that dragged for weeks, and I kept pushing back the start date for the position in an effort to ensure that Cersei got an interview. After 3 weeks, although Cersei still did not have an interview date, I received direction from Jaime that the position would not be filled, HR had been informed of this, and that I needed to inform all of the candidates. I sent a letter to all 3, and moved on.

    Cersei did not.

    Cersei has filed a complaint alleging A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G. under the sun as to how I discriminated against her in every way possible. Of course, she absolutely refuses to speak to me, which is fine, nor Sansa (who works for me but reports to Cersei), which is also fine, but this results in work slipping through the cracks because Sansa has to cover certain duties for Cersei when Cersei is not in, but Cersei does not tell us when she won’t be in. I’m going to send an email that is simple “Hey, can you let either me or Sansa know when you won’t be here so _____ doesn’t fall through the cracks?” but other than that, I’m maintaining my professionalism but staying out of her way.

    But I’m so tired of Cersei’s drama. Jamie has reports that must be submitted on a regular basis to his boss, and anytime his boss asks for variations, or just, you know, that it be timely, Jamie runs to me in a panic because it’s something Cersei can’t do or doesn’t do. I have shown Cersei how I pull the information (which is completely self-taught as I knew nothing about this system but Cersei had been working it for a couple of years), so why she doesn’t do it, I don’t know. Jamie wants his reports to mirror the look and feel of my reports, and I offered to set it up so it’s plug-and-play…I just asked for the last 3 months of data, and his response was “Cersei hasn’t pulled that in months, but don’t ask her for it because I don’t want her to feel bad.”

    Yes…I’m aware I have a very big Jamie problem too. That is an entirely different thread/post/blog.

    I’m not worried about the outcome of the investigation, as I have CMA-d my little heart out with lots of documentation. More importantly…literally everything she is alleging I did was actually done by someone else for valid business reasons. As an example, when Jamie initially mentioned we were creating the position, he mentioned a certain salary, which was more than what Cersei was currently making. However, the position ultimately ended up being lower than that, and lower than what Cersei is making, so apparently I set it that way so she wouldn’t apply for the position…however, I didn’t set the salary, that was completely done by HR. That’s one example, but that example is repeated throughout this entire process.

    Thank you for listening.

    1. Allypopx*

      This sounds SUPER frustrating and like a waste of everyone’s time – I’m sorry you’re dealing with this!

    2. Lilysparrow*

      Why isn’t Cercei on a PIP (at least) if she refuses to speak to her direct report or do her job? Jaime is ridiculous.

      1. AppleStan*

        The truth of the matter is…neither Jamie nor Cersei actually *manage* which is a huge part of the job of being…you know…a *MANAGER* — so it doesn’t surprise me that Cersei is not on a PIP.

        I’d go into examples, but there’s no way for me to explain it without it being too identifying, so I won’t. But trust when I say Jamie doesn’t really know the status of his organization. Jamie prefers the “no one bothers me” approach of managing…Cersei prefers the “drama” approach of managing. In many ways, Jamie’s preference is welcome because before Jamie, there was an environment that was so toxic we had no way of knowing what a good environment should be. But Jamie’s approach doesn’t work well either… for just these sorts of reasons…..

        Oh, I could go on and on and on…..

        My sole focus is to be the best manager that I can be, and always to try to improve. I can’t do anything else in order to protect my people.

  142. Anon Horrible Person*

    Anon for this one:

    There is a certain international population that I have to deal with in my job. I never wanted to work with international clientele, but they have been thrust upon me. They are exhausting. They have easily 4 times the amount of emotional and physical labor that I have to do just for them compared to everyone else. They constantly have problems, most of which is not their fault, but their problems are really hard and expensive to solve and need to be done quickly and can’t be. They also tend to give me wrong information, not read their mail, take months to get back to me, etc. I spend a lot of time explaining things to them, repeatedly. They make my job so much harder, I can’t even tell you. I went to bed at 7 p.m. one night and slept on through for 10 hours after just dealing with their mail this week.
    I feel like I am turning into a racist because every time I see a name from that country, I want to cry or feel sick or something. I suddenly get how people become racist, because at least during work hours, everyone from that country is a huge problem. Every time I hear from one, it’s the same awful stories of “did not receive” and “I need it ASAP” and I can’t do it ASAP, and “my country won’t accept what you sent me, please jump through these fifteen hoops to prove me to my government.”
    I don’t want to be an awful racist, but … that population makes my life so much more stressful. I don’t like becoming like this. I don’t want to be like this. But…they’re so HARD! And I’m so exhausted I can’t work up compassion for them any more. I’m fine with them outside of work, but in my job it’s just a drain.

    1. chizuk*

      It sounds to me like you are 50 miles past burned out. You need to find another job. If not that, you need to take a vacation. An actual vacation, where you turn off your phone and don’t check your e-mail.

      Also, it sounds like your workload is too high. Can you bring that to your boss’s attention, find ways to balance it?

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Would it help to frame this as a structural problem, and build in some process changes that help you deal with it? Your country has [Rules X] which require [behavior Y], where their government has [Rules A] that require [behavior b]. For example, it’s really hard to import my product into India because they want to avoid dumping / grow local businesses. So, we groan, but we keep an updated list of the paperwork we need to do, we know the extra lead time we need to build in, etc.

      Because it’s not that this international population is bad, it’s that they’re different in a way that makes more work for you. If you can define the rational reason for that difference (language uncertainty; lack of internet access; govt regulations) and build some tools for getting a handle on it (checklists, key contacts, setting realistic expectations), maybe that will bring your inner humanist back to the foreground.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        ‘have to explain things repeatedly’: Keep a text ‘tickler’ file of current issues, copy/paste prior explanations and add minimal commentary.

    3. Nacho*

      I’ve been where you are, and it sucks. I’m guessing 80-90% of the issue’s your facing are due to either a language barrier or a population that’s largely rural and has little to no technological literacy, right? Can you talk to your boss and explain that you need different KPIs when dealing with these people, or now that your job is largely working with them, they’ll need to shift down their expectations of your productivity? Frame it less as “These people are awful” and more “These are the unique problems I’m facing when dealing with them, how do I either fix these or adjust my expectations to take them into consideration?”

      After that, just kind of relax a little bit more when dealing with them. You can only do things as fast as you can do them, so don’t worry that they’re asking for it to be done faster. It’s not your problem if they didn’t get what you sent, just send it again. And make sure you know your company’s procedures and when it’s reasonable to jump through 15 hoops because their government didn’t accept what you sent, and when that’s their problem, not yours.

    4. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

      Jobs don’t turn people racist. But it sounds like you need a new one regardless. Go and do something else since these people and this job are working your last nerve – you’re not a help to anyone in your state, least of all yourself.

    5. LGC*

      Woof. So…like, I don’t think you’re a horrible person. I think you’re human, and not handling the stress well (which is probably an understatement). But if you insist on being called terrible: yes, you are horrible. You’re the worst person in the world. Nobody should like you ever again because you had impure thoughts. You have committed thoughtcrimes, and you should feel extremely bad about them.

      Anyway. I should probably be serious and say…yeah, I agree with the burnout diagnosis. I guess in the interim…do you know anyone else who’s worked with this client in the past? It seems like this customer is really demanding – or they might just need their needs met in a different way than usual.

      For yourself, keep in mind – it’s not that the international clients are bad, it’s that the international clients are bad. (Basically, it seems like you’re starting to frame it as “people from this country are terrible clients,” when really it’s that your clients from that country are terrible. I’m almost certain that not everyone from that country is as annoying as your clients.) I’m guessing there’s a bit of a culture clash, but they’re also being difficult to work with as well and not communicating their needs effectively to you. (Unfortunately, that’s your problem to solve.)

      Finally – do you usually email them? It sounds like that doesn’t work well. You might be better off scheduling regular calls to go over things, even if they’re in – like – Indonesia and you’re in New York (so halfway around the world). It’s annoying, and as a guy who also prefers to use email and IM (so I can “multitask” – yes, I know you can’t really multitask, but let me dream), I hate having to pick up the phone most of the time since it feels so intrusive. But sometimes, it’s the best way to get a hold of someone.

    6. Hiding My ID For This One*

      You’re not a racist and you’re not a horrible person. I think you have guts to bring this up. I’ve wanted to reach out for ages but was very sensitive about being labeled a racist.

      My office works with an international clientele, primarily serving one large US employer. We’re not tech, but the service we provide can be complex and detailed. Different populations consistently, over years, have demonstrated the same characteristics that make them tough to work with (I won’t say “challenging”). Group A is known to interrupt you after just a few words to ask the same question again and pile on more questions without waiting for any answers, lather rinse repeat repeat repeat. And we have to be sure they get all the information or there could be adverse fallout they could blame us for. Group B is a very hierarchical culture that views us as their personal employees and will tell us what they want and expect us to just give it to them, and treat us like we’re insubordinate and creating unnecessary roadblocks when we reply, “You don’t meet the eligibility factors for that” or “You have to complete and sign this form, we can’t take oral instructions on that.” Group C is just plain rude and imperious. “I’m sorry, everyone is committed on Friday, I can schedule your meeting for the next Thursday.” “No no no. I need to see them on Friday, you can change someone else’s meeting to Thursday.” Group D will ask their question and start talking over you when you try to reply so they aren’t listening and they get annoyed because they called for information and they still don’t have it (well, stop talking and listen, and you’ll have it).

      Many of the employees barely speak English so it takes a long time to drill down and understand their questions, plus concern that they don’t understand the answers and might come back on us if they therefore get the wrong outcome. Or because they’re the “customer,” they expect to get whatever they want and don’t understand that sometimes the answer is no. Some expect to be accommodated in a particular language and act extremely inconvenienced when told we need to get them to an interpreter (their English can get real good at that point). Just this week I was onsite and happened to hear a young man talking to a coworker, in clear, unaccented English, about how he used his other language and accent to frustrate people and get them to give him what he wanted because it was easier for them than dealing with his “language problem.” He was laughing about it. And he’s not the only person I’ve ever heard say they do this (like a senior professor at a university).

      I go home at night exhausted but unable to sleep. I usually spend a whole day of my weekends just collapsing in front of TV. I’m always worrying about “complaints” from people who are mad because they just didn’t get what they want. Management’s position is like “yeah, that’s how it is.” Not much genuine support for the front-line underlings.

      Yes, I recognize the burnout and am working on taking the next step. But, as Alison has said, after a time of this kind of work atmosphere and you start to feel like it’s normal and you can’t get anything better.

      1. Hiding My ID For This One*

        I should’ve included, all the employees are in the US and are supposed to be legal residents.

  143. Juis suis l'anana*

    It’s performance evaluation time at my organization and I’m working evaluations for direct reports. I have two people who are really high performers; one is very new, so her evaluation will look a little different. The other has been here for some time, and when I’ve given her feedback in the past she’s worked hard to correct what needed working on. She’s at a point now where there’s really nothing I can think of that I would ask her to do differently. I’d appreciate insight into how to handle this situation – my organization prefers us to have an area of improvement for everyone each year. There are a couple areas she’s identified that she’d like to work on, but neither of them really rise to the level of things I would put as areas for improvement on an evaluation, more like, “Let’s handle that a little differently next time.” Thanks!

    1. AppleStan*

      Honestly, I think you should go with just what you said here as a start…

      “Jane, each time we’ve had an evaluation, there has been an area of improvement for you to concentrate on, and you’ve succeeded each and every time in improving your performance and not backsliding. That is actually not something everyone can claim so congratulations!

      An area of opportunity that I want you to focus on now is ______ (whatever Jane had identified before) – you’ve self-identified this already, and while I don’t think it rises to the level of need like the other areas, a little improvement will make you stellar/outstanding/solid in this area.”

      (A) only say that if it’s true and (B) I just realized this won’t be to Jane, but your evaluation about Jane, so rephrase accordingly.

      1. Je suis l'anana*

        Thank you! I was planning to do that in the conversation, but on the evaluation form that’s seen by the Big Bosses, I don’t want to make the things she’s identified seem like real Areas for Improvement, you know? I’m worried that will make them look bigger than they are. I think this is part of the way of getting there.

        1. Rezia*

          Could you talk about things she could do to reach the next level? But be really clear that these are things above and beyond?

    2. Mrs_helm*

      Is there any upward mobility she has her eye on? Or additional skills? My boss often puts “get trained in x” type things as the improvements. It’s something I want/need/will do anyway but it gives him something to write.

      1. Je suis l'anana*

        I put that in the “goals” section, but maybe I can put it in both places so she has a concrete way to improve on that. And she’s been promoted as high as she can get in this organization, unfortunately, unless someone leaves.

        Ah, evaluation forms. Thank you!

    3. Half-Caf Latte*

      I like what Stan suggests, but also consider if there’s a new skill Jane could develop, and if you can spin it as an area of improvement?

      Because your work on Llama acquisitions and Alpaca herding has been so excellent, I’d like you to join the advisory board, to increase our engagement with the professional camelid association.

      1. Je suis l'anana*

        Thank you! I’ve put that in her Goals section, but am working a broader discussion into the Areas for Improvement section of the form as well based on the feedback here.

    4. Reba*

      I would write your honest assessment, that there is nothing she should be doing differently. If you get pushback on it from above, then worry about coming up with something.

      Your org prefers to have something in that box, but surely they most prefer you to be honest and accurate, I hope?

      1. Je suis l'anana*

        Let’s hope! We’ll see how it goes. I can run it by my supervisor for advice too; he may have a better sense of what they want upstairs.

  144. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

    So my Local Boss has been out/barely in for 3-ish weeks due to a major family crisis. This would be less of an issue were our department not cut down to ribbons already. The Other Office Boss I deal with claimed at the beginning that I (the ONLY person in my region to deal with any issues related to tea, teapots, or hot water) should not feel alone, I’d have help (thanks to this alleged and totally not working re-org that made us into one national tea management department). Kicker? He’s not helped at all. It takes him days to respond to my requests, and when he does emerge, it’s to assign me more to do, and I’m already overwhelmed. (Ironically, Local Boss has been doing a better job checking in on me/trying to help me out despite literally being in the ICU with a family member). I’m drowning over here.

    The Teamakers I support are a high-strung bunch who are convinced that they’re going to get sniped by other tea companies in my region if they don’t get things done 5 minutes ago. I’m crushed under 4-5 states worth of highly complicated work and I’m stressed and also kind of angry. Other Office Boss, when he does deign to call me, all he does is complain about how high-strung our Tea Maker region is, how overwhelmed he is by having two other Tea Bosses out and how hard everything is – but in my view, he’s the boss, and that’s what he signed up for. In the meantime I’m under water, stressed out of my mind, and forced to work on things WAY above my training and pay grade simply because there’s no one else to do them. And then I point this out to Other Office Boss, he tells me that I’m the most senior Tea Manager I have, I have lots of experience, so I should just try my best. (This should be handled by certified Tea Experts, but there aren’t enough to go around because we’re all supposed to be one group or something. This regional department used to have four Tea Experts, Three tea managers and an admin. Now we’re down to one tea expert and one tea manager, so if anything happens to the expert, then all hell breaks loose. The Powers That Be seem to think that their system is flawless, but didn’t account for anything going wrong).

    Sorry for the rant. I’m just exhausted and overwhelmed and I have no idea what to do, and no help is coming. My job hunt has been going on since the reorg was announced (about a year ago), but no takers so far.

      1. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.*

        Would if I could, but I am literally the only person handling my region. 1 day off = 2-3 days of catch up. I tried to work from home this week to de-stress but didn’t help that much.

        1. WellRed*

          I’m sorry. I also don’t mean to sound flippant, but unless someone is going to die, you need to step back from this. Talk to the boss.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Sorry.
      Tell your boss you can do X, Y OR Z, not all 3. Something HAS to be dropped. Ask what he wants dropped. “Just do your best” is not enough guidance. Follow up with an email detailing what you will and won’t be doing. Document. Refuse more assignments or TELL your boss you’re dropping something to make time for the new assignment. It’s just not possible for you to do more work. Redirect Other Office Boss when he starts to complain. Tell him you have to get back to work because you’re swamped. Don’t stay late. Even if you worked 24 hours/day, you can’t do it all.
      I hope you’re able to breathe and disengage, because this job is not worth breaking your health. I suspect they’ll use you until you drop. You can’t single-handedly keep this company afloat. Try to detach.
      I really, really hope things improve soon for you.

    3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Don’t apologize. Your situation is like mine on elephant steroids. We went through some management changes recently that weren’t handled very smoothly, combined/split some departments, had a spate of turnover, then my counterpart took a leave. When the leave was extended Boss hired a very good contractor who’s coming up to speed fast, but still has to be oriented, questions answered, etc.

      All by way of saying, I understand what you’re going though to an extent but boy is it landing on you! In these days of horrific understaffing, I am astounded by management that thinks ignoring a problem = eliminating it.

  145. AlmostWetMySwivelChair*

    I am in my first professional job out of college and I was curious if anyone has strategies to deal with a particular situation I have found myself in a few times now. So to set the scene- I am in a meeting I have no real or active role in, just listening, and suddenly need to go to the bathroom urgently. What do I do? Do I hope off the call then WebEx will beep when I get back on? Do I lock my computer and hope I don’t get kicked off the call to run to the bathroom? Do I hold it and hope for the best? Any tips appreciated

    1. Art3mis*

      Are these really long meetings? I would suggest going before the meeting if this is a regular thing. If it’s a medical issue or just comes up I would just get up and go and come back as soon as possible.

    2. sacados*

      So, this is a situation where you’re participating in a conference call and no one else is in the same physical room with you right?
      I’ve had similar situations before. In general I think you’re fine to just discreetly slip away. If there’s a lull in the conversation you can jump in with a quick “excuse me, I’ll be right back, please continue.” But if people are in the middle of talking and there’s not a good place to interrupt, then it’s fine to just duck out.
      Mute your mic for sure. If you’re in an office or some other quiet environment where your video would just show a blank wall, etc while you’re gone, then you can just leave it running. But if the visual would be distracting, then turn off the camera too. You should be able to do all that without actually leaving the webex call, and that way there will be no distracting ping when you get back!

  146. Argh!*

    Had to discuss clothing with someone who has gained weight but has not purchased bigger clothing. This person wears low-rise jeans with waist-length sweaters & shirts, which is a problem to start with. Add several inches of belly flab and I am seeing things I do. NOT. WiSH. TO. SEEE!!!!111

  147. Half-Caf Latte*

    Guys there’s an update from the OP in the bathroom post and it goes…..way beyond the bathroom. The letter really buried the lede.

        1. Buttons*

          Why would anyone come there hours before necessary to sit in someone’s darkened house while they are all asleep?! It is so weird!

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            I think the ‘he lives in an alternate living situation’ may be a bit of a clue. He can’t stay at the place he’s sleeping for whatever reason, he’s looking for someplace warm (or cool) and safe to stay.

            It’s weird, but ‘alternate living situations’ can make for some weird coping strategies. It would be very kind for the boss to build a small space where he could go – they are in construction after all.

    4. Campfire Raccoon*

      Holy Potato Salad.

      Yeah, no. He needs to be let go, AND they need to install keypad deadbolts that lock automatically after work hours.

    9. Not All*

      If the link doesn’t work for anyone else, search for “No Bathroom For You! OP2”

      & Holy Smokes! Yeah, the problem isn’t really what was written in about & the guy needs to be locked out (or fired).

    10. Lilysparrow*

      Well for heaven’s sake, what person in their right mind would frame this as being an issue with an employee using the employee bathroom on an early shift?

      That has nothing to do with the (very serious) problems here. At all.

    11. Half-Caf Latte*

      The latest. He was also sitting at computers trying to guess their passwords.

      I’m BAFFLED as to why this guy still works there.

      1. Quandong*

        It seems like OP has not realized how serious the employee’s behaviours are. Or they want to avoid conflict with the person they were ‘doing a favour’ by hiring the employee.

        1. valentine*

          It seems like OP has not realized how serious the employee’s behaviours are.
          They have, and are negotiating like abductees or hostages.

  148. Commuter*

    One of our employees resigned and their last day was this past Friday. They were a really great worker, but they said the commute was unbearable (fair) and they were openly job hunting for a while. We’re recruiting for their position now and one of the applicants is… the incumbent. Who has been gone for a whole week. The manager is excited and says they’ve changed their mind and they want to come back but I’m skeptical. I can see a comment on their facebook from Tuesday saying the commute was killing them and they couldn’t continue here but now they’ve decided the other perks outweigh the commute after one week of a change? What do you all think?

    1. Mediamaven*

      Oh man. So many red flags. I had an employee leave after a year, I rehired her a year later, then she left the next year again. I think this person is making rash decisions about things and it’s best to move on. I understand how hard it is to hire and train, but fresh energy is better in the long run.

    2. WellRed*

      They haven’t even been gone a week and they …reapplied to their job? What?! And why go about it that way? Why not just reach out?(maybe they did). At any rate, since the commute likely hasn’t changed…just no.

      1. Commuter*

        They reached out to the manager but in our super bureaucratic system they would technically need to apply again. They’re claiming they’ve now realized the environment here is worth the commute but I seem to be the only one seeing red flags here!

      1. Commuter*

        They left with a new job lined up at a similar institution and my guess is they had a bad first week? They applied overnight so after four days of working at the new job they reached out to see about getting their old job back.

        1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

          I think your guess is right. Or, maybe the job fell through before she even got a chance to start there – I’ve heard stories about people thinking they have a start date somewhere, and then showing up on the first day to find out there is no job.

          Either way, she’s not coming back of her own volition. I’d pass on her unless she was a superstar and you’re comfortable with her leaving again (because trust me, she’s still looking and will leave once she finds something better – that commute hasn’t changed).

    4. fposte*

      I might hire them back, but I’d assume they were still searching and had one foot out the door. They’d therefore need to be good enough to be worth the disruption of two departures.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Unless they’ve moved or something that makes their commute better now, I foresee the same old problems with exWorker. I mean that’s possible, but if they’re just coming back for a paycheck I would be wary. Because the commute issues do not go away magically.

    1. chizuk*

      No, but you can you tell your doctor to blame the BP all on your boss ;)

      Also, I’ve found it helps to say to, like, the wall. Venting it out there just so it’s out there, but it’s not dumped on any specific person. Just “for god’s sake will you stop making my life so hard all because you’re a dick!” helps sometimes XD

    2. A1C*

      I blame my boss & the toxic work culture she’s created for my Type 2 diabetes. I’ve got it under control now, but I have to live with the consequences of being her un-favorite rather than stress myself out trying to please her.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If someone is bad on your BP, then they are not the kind of person you can say that to =(
      Seriously though, work has caused many people over the years to have heart attacks because of their BP spikes, so it’s a real thing that can lead to real big life ending consequences. You need to be out of there, there’s no reasoning with people who create that environment.

  150. FuzzFrogs*

    Made the decision yesterday to start documenting mistakes a senior coworker has made. I’m not sure if I’m doing the right thing but I think I am? We are under the same boss but she has a different/more senior role. I’ve caught a series of mistakes she’s made with very important things. I brought two of them to my boss who documented those. I’ve started a file that includes one of those reported incidents that directly impacted my job, and then something I noticed yesterday that may or may not have innocent intentions but looks…weird.

    It feels weird just because she’s senior to me AND not my boss. She’s been struggling in her position, which I know is the cause of all of this but also none of my business, org-wise? But also, I keep being the one who uncovers this stuff and has to report it. And she had an incident last year that would be too identifying to go into–the senior coworker tried to break a few policies to get someone in trouble for making her realize she was bad at her job.

    I guess I just wish I felt like I could ignore this…

    1. AccountantWendy*

      If you both report to the same person, can ask that person what they want you to document? Sticking with things that directly impact your work is a good start.

  151. Anonymoose for Now*

    I’m at something of a loss.

    I’m 29 (30 next May), and I have no idea what I want to do with my life. I currently live with my parents and earn approximately $800 per month through my job that used to be quite lucrative for where I live, but I’m going through a six-month-and-counting slump due to changes in the company that I work for. They keep promising me that it’s going to get better, but I’ve seen no improvement. My ability to get another job is limited due to reasons, and the only way I can start making decent money is by moving very far away from my family and support network. I’m willing to do this, but I have no capital in which to make the move. The financial anxiety is all-consuming, and it’s the first thing I think about when I wake up and the last thing I think about when I go to sleep. I have approximately $500 in my bank account at the moment as I’ve been paying off my debts whilst living with my parents so that at least I’m making headway there, however my cat needs to have some teeth removed soon and that’s going to take the rest of the money.

    I’m honestly feeling like a complete failure right now. All the decisions I’ve made since I was eighteen years old have felt like the wrong ones, though I know that I’m in a priviledge position than most. I have a good degree from a decent (though not brilliant) university; I speak a foreign language; I have parents who love me and have told me that I’m welcome to stay for as long as I want/need; but I just feel like I’m not living as I’m supposed to be living (whatever that means).

    I suppose I’m just feeling that as I approach 30, I should be at a different place in my life. Although, I do know that 30 is young, and I’ve got time. It’s just difficult to shake the feeling of failure from my shoulders.

    My parents always say that as long as I’m happy, then they’re happy. The problem is, I’m not happy at the moment.

    Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. I needed someone to post this without worrying about people that I know reading it.

    1. CatCat*

      I’ve been in a similar place. Twice. You will find something and it will get better. Is picking up temp work an option? That got me through one such slump.

    2. chizuk*

      I was in that exact same position until I was 28 and I sympathize completely, it is so so hard.

      Try to focus on what you *are* doing that works to the future: you are paying off debt, which will be a load off in the future. You are keeping up a job history, which will help position you for future jobs, and at least it’s a paycheck if nothing else.

      Just remember, life’s not a race, and there aren’t mileposts you need to hit to avoid being disqualified.

      Also, when it was really bad, I took up knitting. Having a hobby that involves creating something physical really did help to make me feel like I was making progress. Because, sure, I hadn’t had a job interview in 6 months, but at least I made twelve dishcloths.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      The biggest problem is that you came out of school right in the middle of the worst recession we’d seen in a century (2008 – 2012). Your whole cohort is struggling with the things you list. I know saying ‘you’re dealing with a structural problem’ doesn’t put more hours in your work schedule or help you move, but I hope it helps a little with the feeling of failure.

      On a practical note: is there any on-line free training / certification that you could do with your free time? (I hear good things about Google Analytics certification) Are there any ‘teen age’ chores that you can pick up for extra money, like dog walking or yard work? Can you find an on-line job teaching English, with a focus on countries that speak that second language you speak? Try to keep busy with things that grow cash or employable skills.

      I came out of undergrad during a smaller recession; I spent 2 years living with my parents, then was able to use savings to move to a bigger city, get better jobs, better pay. I got an MBA and graduated into yet another recession, where half my class didn’t get jobs. I got lucky, but I’m still $10K below people who graduated 3 years earlier or 4 years later than I did.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We all go this at one stage or another or multiple times in life, you are not alone.

      It’s good that you can see that you’re in a better spot than others out there, don’t lean too hard on the “I know I’m in a privileged spot” because sure you are but that doesn’t subtract from your struggle. Your struggle is your own, yes others have heavier ones but this is not a competition! We are all human, we all hurt and we all have moments where we think we’re failing and are confused, hurt and feel stuck.

      Try looking at it like this. Life can go any which way at any given moment. You went from a lucrative position to one that’s stagnant for the moment, it feels like it’s pretty awful because that’s the “now” factor. It can still rebound. There are other options. Is there any chance you could find some kind of remote work to do? So many people work from home and do remote work, more and more as we keep developing so much technology. You may very well not need to move at all.

    5. voluptuousfire*

      I was in your shoes a few years ago and one thing I learned from that time is to remove the word “should” when it comes to yourself from your vocabulary.

      I felt like I “should” be in a different place–making more money, exercising to become fit, so on. Along with some other issues, I had pretty bad insomnia for about 4 months. All that anxiety crashed down on me and I was a mess. I got into therapy and I learned that I needed to stop comparing myself to others and that everyone went at their own pace. The same goes for you! Just concentrate on getting through this. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s more about doing what works at that time vs. “where you should be.” If your parents are good with you staying for a while, take advantage of their hospitality. At least you know what you have, which is more than a lot of people can claim.

      Good luck with your kitty as well. :)

      1. AccountantWendy*

        At 29 I had no idea either. Then I thought I had it figured out – moved to a new job that should have cemented my career in non-profit fundraising, got engaged, bought a house. It all fell apart (except the engagement – married 5 years now!). But my life was a mess for most of my 30s and I had to give up my house and move in with my parents and it was all just awful. I took a hard look at what I was good at and matched that with how many jobs existed, and ultimately went back to school to get a THIRD degree (in accounting). It took 5 years going part time and scraping for funds to pay for tuition and books but I did it, got an accounting job, had some therapy in there, and now 10 years later things are working out.

        So, it’s OK to feel lost. It’s great you’re paying down debt but it sounds like you might want to also put some cash savings aside. Think about what you’re good at. Get some therapy! My mental health was SO MUCH WORSE than I realized and getting that sorted helped me tackle the rest of my life. Figure out what you want to change and then make a plan to change it. It’s OK if it later turns out to be a terrible plan – life will go on! But it’s better than being stuck. You either be lost, or stuck, but it’s really hard when you’re both, so I would start by getting un-stuck.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      “My ability to get another job is limited due to reasons, and the only way I can start making decent money is by moving very far away from my family and support network. ”

      If there is anything that can be done in the short or long term to alleviate these reasons, I hope you are able to start addressing them! Waiting around for this employer to pull out of their slump is putting you in a terrible position and very bad for your mental state, as well as your bank account. Any steps, however small, you can take to clear the path to more options will give you a big boost.

      Best wishes.

    7. Megalodon*

      Oof, I’ve been there and feeling behind/like a failure/stuck is such a bad feeling.

      One thing that helped me get out of it, was by refocusing my energy from “I want my entire life to be different and I want to catch up to where I should be” to “what small but concrete baby steps can I take so that I like my life more?” Honestly, the smaller the steps the better, and don’t just limit yourself to career.

      Also, therapy helped a bunch but I know that low cost therapy is not equally accessible to everyone.

  152. Birdbrain*

    TL;DR: my old boss is trying to hire me back and I’m not sure how to navigate this.
    A former boss (“Jane”), who has always been friendly to me but didn’t leave the company on the best of terms, has asked me to join her team at another company. So far it’s just been an informal discussion to gauge my interest in moving, but I know her company and the salary/benefits would likely be comparable.

    I’m generally pretty happy in my current job. My annual review is coming up: unless it changes something, I’m leaning towards staying at my current organization. I get along with Jane and she’s been very supportive of my career. But for a variety of reasons I think it will be better for my career to continue at my current company.

    So my questions are:
    -If I ask questions in my review about where my current boss sees my role, our team’s future etc., is that going to make me look like a flight risk? Those are reasonable question to ask even if you’re not planning to leave, right?
    -Most importantly: If I do stay in my current job, how do I turn down my old boss without damaging the relationship? Jane is my strongest reference and I feel a strong loyalty since she has helped me rather a lot.

    THANK YOU in advance!

    1. alligator aviator autopilot antimatter*

      I think I would also lean toward staying in your current role if you’re happy there, and if the salary/benefits wouldn’t be very much different at the new company. It shouldn’t make you look like a “flight risk” to ask questions about your future and potential for growth in your current organization, though! That’s an important question that your managers should be interested in answering for you if they would like for you to not become a flight risk in the future. :)

  153. Jaid*

    The card reader for our scanner/printer was stolen last week and I finally put a ticket in yesterday, since no one else did. IT came up and replaced it, but said if it was stolen again, to put in a call to security.
    I get why, but man…over a stinkin’ card reader.

    1. Colette*

      A docking station from a conference room disappeared last year. I put in a ticket and the answer was “it was stolen, we aren’t going to replace it”. What?
      In your case, someone stole the docking station so … no one can ever print again? People really lose sight of the forest for the trees.

      1. Jaid*

        Welllllll, our laptops/desktops use the Secure ID for log-ins, and while most have an internal card reader on the external keyboard or the laptop itself, they may…or may not work. Those folks got separate card-readers.

        I’m guessing someone had a failed card reader and decided to “acquisition without documentation”.

  154. MC*

    Hello! I would like some perspective on a problem.
    My twin sister and I work the same part-time retail job. At our job, there is an assistant manager (AM) that wrote my sister up for accidentally dropping money from her till during an anxiety attack and not picking it up after excusing herself for not feeling well. There was an altercation as well during the incident where my sister asked the AM about why she was being rude for some reason, and the AM said that my sister was being rude. It was reported to the main manager, who tried to smooth things over a bit. (It did not help when I told the main manager that the AM can come off as harsh.)

    Ever since that incident, the assistant manager treats my sister and I differently from everyone else, including the public. She is now cold towards us and only talks to us to either reprimand us or give us projects to do. There is not one bit of personality in our interactions. It seems like she exists only to find fault in our work.
    The AM doesn’t greet us or do any social small-talk (like ask, “How are you?”). I don’t expect some intense personal bonding, but at least that much would be nice.

    Where do we proceed from here? What are our options? (If it makes a difference, my sister and I live in a conservative town, we are POC, and the AM and main manager are not POC.)

    1. Commuter*

      I totally feel for you both and I know working in retail is really challenging in a variety of ways. However.. I think in almost any work context you can’t get away with asking the Assistant Manager why they’re being rude and then take it to the Manager.

      Unfortunately I think the only thing you can do from here is be good workers. Be professional, friendly to customers, and do good work. That will speak for itself and maybe in time the AM will thaw towards you, but I wouldn’t expect the AM to be anything but chilly toward you for a while.

    2. Colette*

      I’d say go in, do your job, and forget about it. First of all, I know she’s your sister, but you need to let her manage her own job performance. I’m not sure why you told the main manager that the assistant manager can come off as harsh – or what you hoped to accomplish by saying that.

      And if your sister were asking, I’d point out that asking someone why they were being rude is highly unlikely to end well.

      In a retail job, dropping money and not picking it up is not unreasonable to write someone up for. Keeping track of money in a cashier job is pretty important. I know your sister was unwell and the money wasn’t her top concern at the time, so I wonder what her relationship with the AM was before that. It sounds to me like they didn’t like each other and they both jumped on this issue to make that really clear.

      But your supervisor doesn’t have to be friendly to you. Go in, do your job, and let your sister handle herself.

      1. WellRed*

        Agreed. Why were you involved in this at all? Treat your sister like any other coworker. I do think the AM is behaving unprofessionally, though.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your AM is a POS. I’m sad you’re dealing with this but sadly since it’s retail, the world of Nonsensical Nonsense and Bad Behavior Isn’t Regularly Punished, I would just ignore her chilly BS as much as you can. You can’t fix an assh*le.

      The only other option is if you’re able to find another job somewhere because that’s really the only way to get away from bad management and bad people in retail but then you never know when you have to deal with the next set of jerks that come your way in that dog-eat-dog kind of mini-hunger games setup that they tend to have set up =(

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      We’re really too far removed from this to have good insight on what’s going on. Your AM may be worried about being called racist and trying not to mis-step, or she could be racist. The AM could be worried about a lawsuit, or could be retaliating.

      So what you need is local advice.

      I’d ask your parents for advice, if they’re local. They may know some background that you don’t. You might also reach out to other local support, like maybe your church? If you’re still in school, maybe a sympathetic counselor? Definitely look for someone who is a POC and who has been in town for at least a few years.

      You can, if you really feel brave, ask the main manager (MM) for advice, ‘hey, AM seems very cold towards us. Did we offend her during that write up? Is there some other behavior we need to change?’ Going in together will make it clearer to the MM that it’s both of you (which may help them check for whether it’s a racism problem). The key is to go ask non-confrontationally, not assuming the answer is ‘AMs racist’. It’s absolutely a possibility [and yeah, I think it’s a likelihood], but you will get farther if you go in acting innocent and without suspicion.

      1. MC*

        Thank you for your thoughtful reply! It gave me a lot to think about, especially the bit about looking for local resources. :)

      2. WellRed*

        Not crazy about the “we” language. These are adults and should be acting as separate adults in the workplace. The rest of the advice, though, seems solid.

    5. MC*

      Hello again! I would like to address the worries/criticisms about acting as separate people in the workplace. Rest assured that we do! (We work different shifts.) My intent was to communicate this happening to two people, albeit separately.

  155. LavaLamp*

    I’m really excited! I’ve managed to get an interview at a company I’ve always liked, and the best part is they have office puppies! I’m feeling super happy that they just want to talk to me.

    And before the dogs in the workplace starts, they’re a company that makes things for dogs.

  156. Stacie*

    I just got my first real adult job with salary, benefits, and really high profile clients. The company is a small piece of a giant global media conglomerate

    I’m filling out all of the paperwork and I find myself really hesitant about the non-compete and creative work.

    I know I can maybe make a case for the non-compete as they set a time-limit but not a geographic limit. I’m worried though that the wide-reaching parent company will make a hard case for not including geographic terms to the non-compete.

    The creative work rights makes me really nervous. It includes language that is all creative work inside or outside the office during my employment.

    Part of what really helped me get interviews was my side projects that helped me prove skills that otherwise weren’t available at my last place of employment. I’m worried that if I find new things that I like and develop them on my own, then I’m really going to have to fight for them, or worse not develop them.

    My state has some conditional exceptions, but all of this legalese is giving me anxiety.

    1. Mockingjay*

      I would run the noncompete by a lawyer before signing. You should be able to find one that will do a consult for a flat fee (any lawyers out there – am I correct?).

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Yes, ask a lawyer to look at the non-compete. They’re more enforceable in some states than others, and some clauses are more enforceable than others. But even if you sign one that’s not enforceable, it’s still expensive to fight it in court after the fact.

    3. Jaid*

      Remember Tom from this week? He couldn’t move on until the courts found his company’s non-compete was invalid due to a lawsuit from a former co-worker.

      You don’t want that problem.

    4. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      In my experience, companies that have those kinds of IP restrictions specify the terms pretty specifically; it shouldn’t make a claim to anything you create outside of work, but it sometimes will specifically if it was done using your work computer or any other work resources. I’ve also, in the past, been given a specific form where I could fill in prior developments – things that I’m declaring as IP that I already own, was developed before I signed on, and that specifically is not owned by the company. I would try to get them to give you one of those forms so you can be sure about ownership for “brands” (side projects) that you’ve already created, and I would try to get wording that will exempt anything you develop on your own time using absolutely no resources from the org.

      That being said, some companies might be firm; if the things you learn on the job (which they could argue are trade secrets) would inevitably come out in a closely related side-project, for instance. But if these are just potential side projects you’d maybe one day create, you should be able to do so (using no work resources) and have that exception delineated in the agreement. It’s common enough that they should be able to give you wording to that effect.

      1. Diahann Carroll (formerly Fortitude Jones)*

        it shouldn’t make a claim to anything you create outside of work, but it sometimes will specifically if it was done using your work computer or any other work resources.

        Yeah, this is how my company’s employment agreement is worded. They don’t have the rights to works created outside of the office that we create using our own equipment. I’d get both documents reviewed by an attorney, OP.

    5. Purrscilla*

      I once took a job with paperwork that included a “we own all rights to everything” clause, and I specifically asked them for an exception for my personal craft projects (which they gave me). If I were you I would ask for a written exception for certain things and see what they say.

  157. CallofDewey*

    Any advice on how to manage an employee who doesn’t get how to prioritize? I’ve given her a write up of what order things should be done in for her regular tasks, but when a new project comes along, she can’t seem to put it into the right priority level. Even if it’s an ad for an event with a date on it, she’ll push it off until after the event date if she’s behind on her other work. She’ll do this without telling me until I get frantic emails asking why the project isn’t done. Overall, she’s much slower than I would expect to complete tasks and I think this plays a role- I’ve tried asking her what she needs more training in and what she needs for support and she hasn’t offered much.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You have to start a performance improvement plan for her. And sadly, this kind of person will usually need to be fired if they can’t fix themselves.

      Seriously, some people just can’t be left to prioritize. They do better in a much more structured environment where they’re focused just one kind of thing or are directed specifically “do this right now, before everything else you’re working on.” [In other words, they have to be directed over every little thing and it’s usually not how many skilled jobs work in the end].

    2. sacados*

      You may have to try giving her more oversight for a while? Depends on the timeline of tasks (this wouldn’t necessarily work if things she has to do usually need a day or two turnaround) you could require her to give you status reports on a weekly basis. Either in a meeting or via email, something that lists all ongoing/pending tasks, when she got the request, when it’s due, whether it’s been started yet, etc. This would allow you to flag things like “Hey I see you have Task A due on the 15th but you haven’t started it yet and it looks like you’re working on Task C which doesn’t need to be done until the end of the month, perhaps you should stop working on that and get started on A.”

      You may not have time to do this and this level of handholding is definitely not something you can do for the long term, but it might be enough to get the employee on track?
      And if you do this for a while but she’s still not getting it, then it’s probably time to seriously consider if you want to keep her on or not.

      1. CallofDewey*

        We do this in the form of a weekly update email, but she’s been bad about actually sending me hers. Unfortunately I don’t have time to give her close oversight. It’s a tough situation as she gets along very well with the team and does one part of her job incredibly well, but I do need her to get all her work done, not just the parts she likes.

        1. Colette*

          So the weekly update email is itself part of her job, so what do you do when she doesn’t send it? That to me is a sign that you need to follow up ASAP.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s usually always someone is likeable and gets along with everyone. I have had to let a few great people go over the years, they’re not bad people, they’re just not cut out for the jobs =(

          You really should put together a structured plan, showing her what’s expected of her. Including sending you those reports weekly without missing them. That’s pretty inexcusable.

          It’s always easier if the person that’s not working out is a temperamental ogre but really, it’s rarely the case.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Does she know how to break down a project into deliverables and deadlines? Does she have a project-intake process that includes itemizing and scheduling tasks with reminders?

      The biggest reason people procrastinate is not knowing what exactly to do about something. Maybe you can create a workflow for her where receiving a new project is a trigger event for running the intake process and scheduling the tasks. When you’re used to jobs based on “work through each item on this list until it’s done”, it is a logical leap – or a new skill – to grasp that “decide where this thing belongs on the list” is a discrete task.

  158. SomeGuy*

    I’m currently working on giving feedback for performance reviews and I’m realizing that one challenge I have with it is whether or not something I want to put in is something that should be discussed. It’s like “Is this an actual issue, or do I just think it’s an issue because I operate differently?”

    For example, I find that Fergus is really good at creating his teapot designs, but sometimes when he’s explaining to a group of users why he went with this handle design, he’ll get very detailed in the explanation and can (as I see it) get into the weeds of explaining every minute detail of why this curve was better or the tool he used to make it. On the one hand it’s good if it’s a an audience of other designers, but if it’s an audience of end-users, do they need all of that detail?

    Anyway, so I’m trying to make sure I’m looking at this as unbiased as possible so I can deliver appropriate feedback to their supervisor.

    1. Buttons*

      I think the example you gave is good constructive feedback. Properly identifying an audience and what their needs are is a HUGE part of effective presentations. It is also something that can be coached and developed.

    2. CatCat*

      I totally agree with Buttons. As someone who has struggled with “tailored appropriately to the audience” issue, I appreciated it when my supervisor brought it up and helped me address it.

    3. LGC*

      Good luck and godspeed.

      To answer this…like, the trick I’ve used is to think big picture first. To use your example – is communicating design a large part of Fergus’s job? If it is, not knowing his audience is an issue.

  159. Just another person*

    Recently, my boss decided that I should propose a solution or an answer to every question I ask. He’s explained this is to give me more authority and to lessen the burden on his workload. I’m an entry level program coordinator for a non-profit, my title/job description/very low pay don’t include any managerial responsibilities, and sometimes I would really like my boss to impart advice or help when needed. I think it would be helpful to me in this stage of my career. Generally, I’m a very independent worker and I always meet my work-related goals. I don’t understand where this rhetorical question tactic is coming from. Has anyone experienced this? How did you handle it?

    1. Colette*

      This is a pretty normal request. I would expect that your boss wants you to think about possible solutions and run them by him. That doesn’t mean he won’t weigh in, but he wants you to go through the effort of thinking about it.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      I never go to my boss without 1 – 3 suggestions for solving a problem. He can shoot them down or come up with his own, but it gives him a great starting place.

    3. Ex-libris*

      This hasn’t been asked of me but I tend to do it on my own. A lot of times it’s an educated guess, sometimes it’s a looser guess, and I’ll be upfront. As in, “I don’t know if this would work because I don’t work with X,” or “Since it worked with Y, how about Z?” Sometimes my supervisor tells me to go ahead with what I was thinking and it confirms I understand the issue, and sometimes I learn something new and important about our work or the dept / org at large. If I’m not confident, I don’t act on what I’m doing until I run it by my supervisor, but think it empowers my problem solving abilities and large-scale understanding of the organization to at least do the thought experiments on my own.

    4. Buttons*

      This is actually a good thing! Your boss is giving you some direction that he wants you to think bigger and more strategically. He is still going to give you his opinion and he is still going to direct you and steer you towards what he thinks is best, but he is empowering you to find solutions.

    5. Augusta Has Gone East*

      I agree with the others. I used to do this with my boss. If I had no clue because it was something totally new, I’d lay out the solutions that I’d tried based on similat challenged I’d faced but that didn’t work. This way she’d see that I was working on solving the problem already and could either tell me where I’d made a mistake or add some to my existing toolbox.

    6. MissBliss*

      I think this is a fairly commonplace request. I think it’s a good thing– he’s testing your instinct. It’s not that you won’t get advice or help when needed, it’s that he wants to see how you’re coming to conclusions. If you give two suggestions and they’re totally off base, I’m sure he’ll correct you. But if you consistently give two options, one that’s more X and the other that’s more Y, and he consistently chooses the Y options, you can discover valuable things about how your employer (both the organization and your supervisor) like things to work.

  160. Hamlindigoblue*

    The department I work in is caught in a power struggle between our VP and another department’s VP. Our department was forced into taking on a role that none of us are trained to do that other VP’s team used to (rightly) be responsible for. Our team is suffering for a poor management decision. In a meeting this week, my VP announced that he “will put this team through hell” just to prove other VP wrong. The problem? Other VP is right.

    I’m so over this week. Can I go home yet?

    3. juliebulie*

      Why don’t they just arm wrestle for it, instead of dragging all of you into their ego contests?

  161. DG*

    Does anyone immediately get anxiety every time their boss says “We need to talk?” How do you deal with it?

    Today, I got a call and it was “We need to talk about your performance… (pause) you’re getting a raise!”

    Which, good news. But the interminable pause in the middle of it felt like 10 years, when it was probably 5 seconds. And I was immediately on guard.

    My boss is AWESOME, so it’s really just me, being a nutcase. But am I alone in this? I had a good year. I know I’m a valued performer at the company. But still, my anxiety brain is like “NEWP. You’re getting fired!”

    I don’t know why I do this. I’ve never been fired before. There is nothing in my past that warrants it. And yet…

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      You’re not alone… I wish managers would stop doing this. I do not like rollercoasters, Sam I am.

    2. ACDC*

      Recently my boss (who works in a different office) emailed me on a Monday saying “We need to meet first thing tomorrow morning. Let me know ASAP is 8AM works for you. We need to have a discussion about something that has come up.” I reply immediately saying I could meet that day if it was easier, because naturally I was freaking out. Well Tuesday AM rolls around and it turns out that wanted to thank me for all of my hard work and give me a big fat bonus. I had horrible anxiety for 24 hours for nothing.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re not alone. At all.

      I have only ever been “reprimanded” once [by a psychopath that I didn’t know what was a psychopath until that moment] and I still get that stomach drop that happens.

      I do HR, so I’m really aware of that and so I always make sure to make things very clear “You aren’t in trouble but can I talk to you for a minute?” because it makes me feel better about not causing that stomach-drop in other people!

      I get that feeling before each performance review now that I’m somewhere that does them despite the previous ones being glowing reviews with good raises. Still, I’m like “what if the boogyman jumps out of that paperwork suddenly…”

      Here it sucks because everyone likes to slink into my office and quietly close the door behind them and I’m like “What…what now??” [It’s never about me even but I know someone quit, someone was fired, something weird happened and I’m anxious about who did what and what I’m going to be asked to do.]

    6. AccountantWendy*

      I’ve been fired, more than once. The anxiety never goes away. But since I’ve been fired more than once, I also know that if it happens again, I’ll get over past it. So…I update my resume every 6 months. I have some recruiters I work with that I’ll drop a note to every year to say “hey, can you update my profile in your system?”.

      I also HAVE to trust my current GOOD manager that if there was a problem they’d tell me. I personally think your manager should have just led with “Your getting a bonus” but whatever. So, even I’m nervous about the meeting I’d much rather know if there are performance concerns because I can work with that (as opposed to Surprise, you’re fired, even though we never told you we were concerned).

      So….just realize the anxiety is always there but it doesn’t matter because worrying about what the person is going to say won’t change the reality of what’s going to actually happen (good or bad).

    7. LGC*

      Oh man, not only do I get this a lot from my boss, I inadvertently do it to my team as well!

      I think that if you’re like me and probably 90% of the commentariat, you’re eager to please and a bit neurotic. I mean, I still gasp a little bit when my boss calls me into her office, and like 95% of the time it’s neutral or good!

      Actually, that might be the explanation. The 5% of the time things are bad stick out in my mind. (It’s a common problem – people tend to be terrible at evaluating risk for low and moderate probability events.)

      Anyway. I just try to be mindful of it. Like, I’ll let myself have a spike of anxiety and not judge myself for it, and then it’ll be like, “wait, she didn’t say what it was, so I can’t guess.”

      (She also has a tendency to say “It’s nothing bad,” regardless of what it is. I think she thinks it reassures us. It most certainly DOES NOT. I tend to be more serious with bad news, which cause its own issues.)

    8. WeOuttaHere*

      Last week, my boss did this to me and the meeting was, “I know you’re applying and interviewing for other jobs so I need to know if you’re leaving.” So, yes, I was already anxious about it, and probably will be for the rest of my life now.

  162. Ann on ymous*

    I’ve been suffering with chronic abdominal pain since I had my son last year. Occasionally I get crippling cramps and stabbing pains in my abdomen.

    The doctors are baffled. I’ve had ultrasounds and had so much blood taken it is ridiculous. I’m due to have some more tests soon.

    This underlying health issue leaves me quite tired. But I can usually middle through at work (where I generally am very good at my job) as well as looking after a one year old at home.

    But it’s plague season and my son keeps catching minor bugs. He then shares them with his mummy and they completely take me out. I’ve only been back in work six months and I’ve had three short sickness absences already.

    A recent tummy bug coincided with a bad abdomen episode and I had to go to the hospital. I was signed off sick for two weeks. I’m terrified to go back into the office when the note runs out as I’ll face a disciplinary for so many absences. They’re all related (which would usually give me a pass with HR) but with no official diagnosis yet (and thus no detailed treatment plan) it’s hard to prove. It’s making me anxious, which is making me more sick.

    What do I do?

    (The suspicion has been and continues to be something to do with gallstones. My blood liver results are higher than they should be and the symptoms match billiary collic, but I have low cholesterol and more importantly they’ve not been able to find any stones on MRI or ultrasound. Some new imaging test is being booked for the next couple of weeks)

    1. fposte*

      It sounds like you’re not in the U.S., so I can’t speak to your legal protections. But have you talked to your manager about this yet? Right now it sounds like you’re talking about the workings of a machine, and you need to find a way for you, a human, to talk to somebody else who’s a human. Preferably proactively, rather than waiting until you get called in. Basically, the talk goes like this: “I wish I had better news, but we’re still working on a medical solution. I’ll keep you in the loop as much as possible, but how can we make this work?” It’s not magic, but I think you’ll find that planning and taking an action rather than waiting for something to happen to you will help somewhat with the anxiety.

      FWIW, while it sucks to face a disciplinary, I think it’s survivable, and that your health is more important right now. Hope they figure something out for you soon.

        1. Ann on ymous*

          We’ve tested for all allergies. And I’ve been prodded enough, and told my abdomen is nice and soft.

          I had ICP in pregnancy, and to rule it in they ruled out a lot of other things. No obvious autoimmune disorder. No liber disease, they even tested for the rarer type of hepatitis. I’ve only got markers for EBV (glandular fever/ mono) which I had 15 years ago at uni.

      2. Ann on ymous*

        Yes, UK. I’ve chatted to my manager. She’s lovely. My workplace isn’t lacking in understanding, it’s just all processes and support are geared for tangible illness and disability. I’ve been there over the magic two years, so have a reasonable amount of legal protection. I’m just anxious. I also feel like I’m letting colleagues down by not having a clear treatment plan and end-date. I do now have a consultant surgeon who has sort of taken ownership, but I’m contemplating dropping £150 for a private consultation with a general consultant at the private hospital. My GP said they may be able chivvy things a long a bit.

  163. Augusta Has Gone East*

    After months of searching in a new country, I found a paid (!) internship in the field I’d like to transition to! So excited to start next week.

    Thank you for all the commiserating and supportive comments and good luck to all of you still searching.

  164. Pregnant job candidate*

    I wrote here last week about job searching while pregnant. Today I got two offers!!!!

    They have different sets of benefits which I am comparing. More intangibly, I have no idea which will treat me better when I give birth in ~4.5-5 months… any tips for how to ask about this is appreciated.

    1. fposte*

      Hooray! What does good treatment look like to you? Can you ask their process for maternity leave, reduced service, etc., when other employees have needed them?

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Have you read their handbooks? I would look at how their medical leave sections are worded just so you’re well versed in if they just fall in line with FMLA or if they have their own better policies.

      1. gsa*

        That was my first thought.

        Ask any question you have, just don’t ask one that’s been answered.

        btw: congrats regarding your pregnancy!!!

    4. WellRed*

      Our company makes the benefits person available for questions. Can you say you’ve got questions?

  165. Sriracha Anony Mouse*

    (Federal government and contract company topic)
    I don’t know if it’s PMS/hormones talking but yesterday, during a 1 hour 50-person contractor meeting, I sat near a lady converting from our contractor to becoming a fed. The lady was loud, commentariat-ing on other people’s expertise when the manager was talking at the front about people’s expertise. After that, she casually strolled out the door, leaving her manager at the front of the podium asking 20 min later where she went (they had a farewell card/cake for this lady b/c she was leaving the contract co to become a fed). The manager looked a bit miffed and asked lady’s coworker to text her to come back(!!)

    Several minutes later, the lady saunters in casually, and they give her a card and end the meeting and cut the cake. I went through 4 3-4 person government panel interviews over the past 5 years with zero follow-up and hundreds more USAjob rejections and seeing this lady treat other people’s time disrespectfully (cutting the meeting, talking over others, generally being obnoxious) really got my goat. It just felt SO unfair that after a half decade and 550+ government job applications, law licensure, 10 credits/semester undergraduate career, working 2 jobs every summer, spending till 2 am applying to government positions, networking, that I still got NOTHING to show for it and this lady, as disrespectful as she was and overtalking, was able to transition to being a fed 3 floors above, joking that she ‘was the one in charge’ of all the contractors now.

    I saw flames. Flames. On the side of my face. (It’s a movie reference).

    Can anyone say anything at all to make me feel better? Or tell me that karma will work itself out? Ugh. PMS hormones….://///

    1. AnonRightHere*

      We just had an employee convert to government. She was the big fish in the small unimportant pond who made a career out of criticizing everyone’s performance (even though she wasn’t a manager). Now she’s the really big fish in a far larger, more important pond in our same program. Yeah, we’re all braced for impact. sigh.

    2. Kathenus*

      When I see people like this I hope that karma will work itself out, but the one thing I know for sure is that I wouldn’t want to be them. I wouldn’t want to have no self-respect and integrity. So it always sucks to see people like thius weeming to get rewarded for this type of behavior, but at the end of the day I’d rather be me with the work ethic and morals that I was raised with.

  166. Henrietta*

    I could use tips on dealing with a bit of a sticky situation at work. I’m a manager and my own manager has recently told a couple of us that he has been diagnosed with significant hearing loss and is getting hearing aids. Not a big deal, I make a point to ensure important info is recorded in text and to speak clearly and look at him while I talk. But he has also been recently assigned an assistant who has a significant vision loss and doesn’t speak English as her native language. These two things together are causing huge amounts of miscommunication and it is driving me batty and making it hard for me to manage my own team.

    The biggest issue is my boss and his assistant will be in a meeting with our management or stakeholders and walk away with a very different understanding than everyone else in the room. I’m not always in these meetings so sometimes my boss tells me to do the wrong thing which then pisses off our stakeholders. I’ve tried gently pushing back saying things like “I hear you are requesting X, we’ve tried that and it didn’t work are you sure that they don’t want Y?” But it is getting to the point where I’m having to double check info with my boss’ boss or my peers and we’re making plans about how to do things with my boss out of the loop. That in turn is limiting my credibility with my directs since they see my boss say “Do X” and then see me do something different.

    Any tips for coping with the world’s most annoying game of telephone while still being respectful of folks disabilities?

    1. Lilysparrow*

      It is not disrespectful to point out and address the miscommunications directly. Sit down with your boss 1 on 1 and discuss these various recent examples – not as failures or mistakes on his part, but as problems with information flow that are impacting your work and the work of the department.

      Until he gets his hearing aids properly calibrated (which may take a while after he has them), you need a backup system to get the info from these meetings. Are minutes taken? Can they be recorded?

      You’re not insulting him/them. You’re looking for accommodations that will fix the logistical problems.

    2. Anonymouse for this*

      Is there anyway you can ask someone in the meeting to send a quick email afterwards documenting the decisions made and the action plan.

  167. MissDisplaced*

    Question for Graphics People

    How much time do you spend searching for stock photos? Is this normally part of your job?
    Have you ever been chided at work that you’re spending too much time trying to find the “right” photos?

    I spend a lot of time looking for and saving stock photos because: a) I create a lot of presentations and social posts, and b) sometimes the subscriptions don’t carry-over monthly and I don’t want downloads to go to waste so I’ll search/download things I know we’ll use for upcoming projects even if I don’t need them right now (usually done while I’m eating lunch at my desk).

    But here’s the thing: twice now at different jobs, I’ve basically been told that I “just play with and/or look at pictures,” as though somehow this is not part of my job and I’m loafing or goofing off. It’s so weird, because this IS my job! I mean, it’s a part of my job: how else do people think designs get made? Anyone else run into this?

    1. Allypopx*

      How do you respond when people say this? Is it non-graphics people? I am not a graphic designer persay but I work in marketing and do some graphic design, and if people ask what I’m doing or why something’s taking so long I’ll try to say “we want the final product to look as polished as possible” or “sometimes it’s a lot of trial and error – it will all come together” or if I’m looking at pictures “just trying to find some stuff we might find useful in the future”. I guess I’m asking if a) these people just don’t understand your job and b) if you can have any pocket responses to help them realize your job involves some fiddly parts that may look strange from a casual glance.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I usually say something like “It often takes a lot of looking to find the right photos for a project.”

        And yes, it’s always from non-creative people. But, I mean how rude! I don’t go asking them why it takes so long to prepare a budget or a report, and like accuse them of not working because they’re staring at a spreadsheet. I think it’s because photos are inherently colorful and fun, they don’t see all the work behind it.

    2. Buttons*

      People say that? How weird! My design work goes in spurts, but I when I am working on a presentation or user guides, etc. I will spend a lot of time creating the perfect template, design, and photos. I have never had anyone say that to me, but there is one annoying know-it-all who said to me multiple times “I don’t know why you need X length of time to write training.” My response was “Well, no, I wouldn’t expect you to know why, because it isn’t your job, and you don’t know what goes into writing training. ” She hasn’t ever said it again.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          I was kind of hoping to hear something like this. And yes, I know how hard it is to write training! I also work with some of those people.

    3. CM*

      Stock photos take forever, and I think it’s smart to try to grab some when you have free time and not just when there’s an imminent deadline, especially if, as you say, you have regular social media posts or other continuous content that you need generic pictures for.

      The comments are weird, but it might be worth asking “As opposed to what?” in a serious attempt to find out what the person saying it envisions you doing with your time if it’s not that. It could give you a chance to clear up any misunderstandings between you.

  168. Possible Fed Employee?*

    Question for the federal employees on here:
    When getting a job offer for a federal job, do you have to start at GSXX, step 1? Or can you negotiate to start at a higher step?

    I’m in the process of “direct hire” for a federal job, definitely not assuming I’ll get the job, but just wondering. I’m happy where I am but they came to me to interview so I’m thinking I may have more leverage to negotiate if I do get an offer. And there’s a certain amount of money that would make me move but anything less and is probably stay where I am.

    1. Bear Shark*

      Not a fed but have a friend who is who I’ve discussed hiring with. They made it sound like there’s sometimes room to negotiate a higher step if you can show education/training/experience in excess of the posted required levels. It sounded like fed jobs had less leeway in that then the private sector jobs I’m familiar with though.

    2. chizuk*

      It is possible to negotiate a higher step if you’ve gone some years of experience. IDK if there’s a cap on how high you can get negotiate on the step.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You can negotiate. My partner just went through it. He was offered a job at GSXX Step 1+Y and he asked for a specific number, which put him at GSXX Step 1+ Z. Be forewarned, though, that the negotiation process in some areas can involve a lot of time and paperwork. My partner had to send in support documents to justify the higher salary and it took several weeks for everything to get finalized. He kept in touch with the hiring manager, who was great about updating him, but it was a really stressful time. This may vary by agency, of course, because it’s the government, after all!

    4. Not All*

      It depends on the agency and the position. In general, it is VERY rare to negotiate steps. If it is the only way you’ll accept the position, it won’t hurt to try but the odds are low and it will definitely delay things. At least 3 rungs of approval were needed for things like that at my last 2 agencies and it was quite possible that a cert would expire (even with maximum number of extensions legally possible from HR) before all those were successfully navigated. Once a cert expires, you need to start over with readvertising & interviewing. It’s a nightmare. And expensive. You have to be WAY WAY WAY better than any other applicant to make it remotely worth it. I did see it done a couple times in one office where positions were incredibly hard to fill because 1) the work was unusually problematic for several specialties 2) the location was extremely undesirable for 95% of qualified specialists 3) management had big issues and enough of a reputation that most internal-to-agency people knew to avoid that office unless they were desperate.

    5. Penguin*

      No, you don’t necessarily start at Step 1 within your Grade. You can start at higher steps (or at least, such was my experience with my agency) if that’s where their evaluation of your experience and education places you. How likely that is, though, I can’t say.

  169. Lx in Canada*

    So this isn’t super amazing, but I made it the whole week this week without calling into work or leaving early due to not feeling well!! I usually don’t make it the whole week, due to mental health issues that I am working on resolving. I wasn’t productive every single day, but I did get some major things done that I’d been putting off, made some phone calls, and overall just got stuff DONE! So I’m actually really proud of myself, even though I know it’s, you know, the norm to go to work every single day and stay your whole shift and get your work done… but obviously struggling makes that a whole lot more difficult. Here’s to working a full week next week! :)

  170. Bear Shark*

    I thought of everyone here when I was in another of my company’s offices for a meeting and saw a paper sign taped up in the breakroom over a microwave with a no fish symbol. I had to stifle a laugh.

    1. Something's fishy*

      Our department admin sent an email to us about fish that stinked up the whole fourth floor. We are now officially banned from heating fish.

  171. FD*

    Arghhhh.

    The software we use for everything had a database glitch in how two sets of ledgers connect. As a result, guess who gets to go through six months of transactions line by line to find things that don’t match up???

    *blue streak of swearing*

        1. AccountantWendy*

          Sorry to hear that. I still recommend mastering Control+Shift+Enter (also known as CSE) formulas. It has allowed me to do things in Excel that are otherwise impossible and has made a huge difference to my reconciliation process.

          1. FD*

            Yeah, I know how to use array formulas.

            So, here’s the problem.

            We have a bank account that is used by multiple things. Let’s say that Ann’s Apples and Bob’s Burgers belong to Harold’s Holdings. They both deposit their revenues into a shared bank account, and write checks for their expenses out of it. So, if there’s $10,000 in the account, the system should know how much belongs to Ann’s Apples and how much belongs to Bob’s Burgers.

            Now, I know we have the right AMOUNT of money in the account because my reconciliation for Harold’s Holdings’s bank account came out even.

            The problem is that a database error caused the ledger for “Owed to Ann’s Apples” and “Owed to Bob’s Burgers” to be off, so that adding them together doesn’t come out to the amount of money into the account.

            The reason I cannot do what you’re describing is twofold:

            1) Coincidentally, both Ann’s Apples and Bob’s Burgers have a large number of payments they receive that are the same amount. So, while I can filter it to ‘Payments in the amount of $50’, I still have to manually check WHICH payment it is, since there is no easy way to tell if it’s an Ann’s payment or a Bob’s payment I’m looking at.

            2) Ann’s Apples and Bob’s Burgers make joint payment on a number of things. For example, they pay their insurance together, and the system should know that out of the $750 monthly insurance payment, $250 comes from Ann’s and $500 comes from Bob’s. However, this means that my bank statement shows an expense of $750, but my GL shows a payment of $250 from Ann’s and $500 from Bob’s.

            (Preempting this, yes I am sure that actual accountants are probably wincing, and yes, I suppose I should have been manually checking the ledgers all along. I am not an actual accountant though, and I’m learning as I go.)

          2. FD*

            Sorry, don’t mean to be a jerk, I’m just frustrated that this is going to make a massive amount of extra work. Because of the numbers of transactions we’re talking about here, each month = about four hours of uninterrupted work untangling it. Slow, grindy, finicky work.

            1. AccountantWendy*

              I get it, and you have my sympathy! We’ve had some crazy reconciliations that had to be done line by line, sometimes that’s just what it takes.

  172. Indigo a la mode*

    Can someone fill me in a little more on what’s going on regarding some harassment compaign against our beloved Princess Consuela Banana Hammock? I’ve seen a couple of instances of Alison banning someone over the past couple of monthhs but haven’t seen the content or the longer-term…thing.

    Thanks!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What? I am missing a whole lot right now, I don’t know what harassment campaign you’re talking about.

      I assume it’s standard internet bridgetrolling, which has happened over the years in many public forums and never shocks me anymore.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think it’s counterproductive to give it further attention so I’d ask that we leave it here, but the quick summary is that someone has made an incredibly weird hobby of being an asshole to her over and over again. That’s not okay to do here to any commenter and I’m removing it as I see it.

      1. Indigo a la mode*

        That is so bizarre and umwarranted! Thanks for responding and for looking out for your commentariat.

  173. Awkward & Introverted*

    Is it strange that I’m not close people in my small department? I’m a 20 something woman and my department has 2 other young women (let’s call them Mary and Kate) who are like BFFs. I’m the newest hire and got invited to breaks and lunch with them in the beginning. But I felt like a huge 3rd wheel because I didn’t have much in common with them and am honestly very introverted. So I started doing my own thing and generally eat by myself or with someone from another department now.

    I don’t really mind (I love having time to myself) but it’s a bit awkward when others in the company ask why I’m not hanging out with or eating with Mary and Kate. I don’t want to give off the idea that I dislike them or something because they’re very kind. I just don’t want to be that 3rd wheel and feel really awkward around them when it’s not about doing work.

    Any tips? So far I’ve told half-truths and said that our break/lunch schedules don’t match since they have more responsibilities than me. People in my company usually eat with others in their department but it’s not uncommon for people to eat alone….

    1. tomatotomaahto*

      I’m a little like that too. Could you be “running errands” during the lunches when you’re eating alone? I usually run home during my lunch to let my dogs out to potty. Makes things less awkward – although my team rarely eats together anyway :)

      Maybe consider making an effort to eat/break with them every now and then. Like once a month-ish. That way you’re still being friendly but getting a chance to recharge.

    2. AccountantWendy*

      I think you could just say you prefer to use your lunch break to strengthen visit with people in other departments, or to eat alone and re-charge a bit. It’s sounds like your working relationship is fine, so it’s OK not to be friends with co-workers.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      We have a smaller department with a few smaller cliques, and I don’t really hang out with any of them, even the ones closer to my age. I’m like you; I am very introverted and I don’t have a lot in common with any of them. I don’t think you need to lie. Just say Oh I like to use this time to decompress or run errands or catch up on my reading. It’s never been a huge issue.

    5. Overeducated*

      Maybe try eating with them once a week or so? You certainly don’t have to, but the awkwardness isn’t going to go away if you don’t spend more time with them.

  174. Concerned academic*

    Maybe I’m not too late for some tips.

    My employer is a private higher education institution. They pride themselves on being leaders in community improvement, social justice, the next generation, innovation, etc etc all that future-oriented stuff. They have dept’s in environmental law, environmental studies, and engineering. We are in a state with a commitment to the Paris Accord. And we have NO published plan or information about our GHG emissions or plan to reach neutrality from the last 10 years. This seems ridiculous to me on multiple fronts, and I really want to try to bring it up with my employer, but I also am not sure how.

    Academia is the sort of place where one employee CAN get action on something like this going, but I’m not a big shot professor with clout. I’m a full time, masters level, non-teaching professional faculty member. I emailed the “sustainability office” (which literally just has a webpage that says reduce reuse recycle and no other information, wish I were kidding) very politely requesting information about all of this, and it’s gone ignored for a week.

    Any tips from fellow academics on how to bring up concern about an important issue like this?

  175. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from Not the Hellmouth! I am walking on sunshine today because my salary for the state job has been nailed down and it’s what I need it to be! Not quite as much as the Hellmouth, but very close and definitely a good step up from both here and also my pre-Hellmouth positions. I am psyched. Now I’m just waiting on paperwork and setting my start date so I can give notice. Huzzah! I’m hoping I can do this sooner rather than later, because I’m having a difficult time performing up to my standards but I can’t seem to stop myself from becoming more and more checked out.
    Property management can be kooky, even at nice, non-Hellmouth properties, but I increasingly am finding myself unable to deal with some of the entitlement issues and attitudes that some of the residents have. For example, one of our residents blew up the after hours line last night at 9:30 because she heard “young children at the pool saying things that [she] found offensive.” She forced the call center to put her through to management because it “was such a serious issue.” It sounds like she was astonished that this was not grounds for evicting their parents. Yesterday I had a resident call me to “register a comment” and then go off the rails ranting about how the hot tub has been broken, the manager sending out a notice about it was in no way a sufficient action, and the manager MUST send out an in depth apology to every resident about the hot tub “situation” and his “thoroughly inept handling of it”. Also, the resident wanted it to be noted that he felt “PERSONALLY BETRAYED” by the hot tub breaking and that” anything that breaks would be able to be fixed almost instantaneously if we cared about the residents.” He informed me that he has spoken to many other residents, y’all, and assures me that they feel the same way. And this past Saturday I found myself running out of polite ways to tell one specific woman “I can’t help with this and will have to forward it to the manager, the manager will be in on Monday, no I can not make the manager come in today he does not work Saturdays, no I can not give you his private number, no I can not give you the things you are asking for, this is something that the manager has to do.” I also had trouble formulating a polite way of saying “Your daughter leaving a pile of wet towels in a humid and shut up bathroom for a month and finding mildew on them is not a five star emergency, ma’am, maybe teach her how and when to do laundry. No, your precious angel baby is not going to die because the manager isn’t in to call until Monday.” I now feel qualified to go and home and pen the future bestseller Shut Up, Shut Up, SHUT UP: Dealing with the Difficult and the Entitled While Still Managing to Stay Out of Jail
    So YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY state job, and hurry uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup start date!

    1. Mockingjay*

      Next time on Dr. Phil: “I was PERSONALLY BETRAYED by a broken hot tub!” Dr. Phil will discuss the need for property managers to be more sensitive to residents’ emotions. Also, leases will now permit each resident (1) emotional support animal for every perceived slight by a property manager/assistant. (*Total quantity not to exceed 10 small animals.)

      1. Beancounter Eric*

        Define “small animal”…..and what is the exchange ratio small to large?

        What is the max weight allowed for a support animal?

        Who pays for the care and feeding of said support animals?

        Do Honey Badgers qualify as a support animal?

        1. Asenath*

          I chose my current home partly because it allowed “one small animal”, I think the phrase was. I got special permission from the board for two cats, and moved in. The woman living at the end of my corridor at the time had a gorgeous husky. Obviously “one small animal” has a variety of meanings! I think the husky was a support dog – he was, in any case, a beautifully behaved animal. But not what one thinks of as as “small dog”.

    2. CatCat*

      I now feel qualified to go and home and pen the future bestseller Shut Up, Shut Up, SHUT UP: Dealing with the Difficult and the Entitled While Still Managing to Stay Out of Jail

      Doooooo eeeeeeeeeeeet!! I will pre-order!

        1. Fact & Fiction*

          *coughcough* If you don’t want to go the traditional route, I know a lot about indie-publishing. Just saying because I’m selfish and want to read this. Ha!!!

    3. Super Anonywoman*

      AAUUGH residents at condo complexes are THE WORST. I have to meet with condo boards for my job, and it’s always excruciating. I feel your pain! Hang in there and I’m so glad you’re leaving soon!!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Thanks! Yeah, it will drive you batty. For example, last night a resident blew up the emergency line and made the call center contact every employee that they had a number for (which did not include me, thank goodness) after 11:00 last night. The reason? They couldn’t get into the clubhouse… which is only open until 10pm.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I never understand how y’all handle the psychos. It’s like I thought the gen pop crud cashiers at the grocery stores deal with was too awful to inflict on anyone. But then I started renting my own place and met those condemned to property management. You’re captive to these lease holding freaks of nature and so many laws and regs to protect them and none for you really.

      I’m just glad you have humor. And finally an out!!!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        AN OUT!!!!!! I am SO FRIGGING EXCITED. (And reeeaaally impatient.)
        As far as dealing with the psychos: You either have to be able to laugh most of it off, or have access to alcohol. Really. Good. Alcohol. I honestly feel like there should be a life skills class in high school where “How to Rent and Live in an Apartment” is at least a section of the curriculum.

    5. NoLongerYoung*

      Just wanted to say, yay on the new job front…. just a little more time, and you can started xing off the days on the calendar!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Thank you! I actually have a calendar and a red sharpie at the ready, just for xing purposes.

    6. Aphrodite*

      That is one of the best book titles I have ever heard! If the writing itself is as great as the title, I want to buy the first copy..

        1. Nana*

          Late to the party…but there is such a book “Wide Lawns and Narrow Minds” Vicki Felton…who had a blog of the same name. She worked in property management in Florida — featuring super-rich and entitled idiots, adultery, May-December romances, substance abuse, non-stop nonsense.

  176. questiony*

    Is it a bad indicator if only one person applies for an internal applicants-only promotion to manager job?

    What if the reason isn’t that others aren’t interested, but that they know that the job is guaranteed to just one person.

    This just happened where I work. It feels like management and HR can just pat themselves on the back for an easy hire, without any thought into what might have led to this moment.

    While I do think every worker owns the responsibility to seek out growth opportunities, communication with managers is a two-way street. With the power imbalance between managers and workers, it seems incumbent on managers to make an effort to help their direct reports grow.

    Am I crazy? BTW- I’m not bitter about the job, just how it seems to be handled.

    1. Allypopx*

      I’d call it a yellow flag – something that isn’t great, but isn’t uncommon. People get groomed for jobs. Ultimately, it would be a much better culture if more people felt comfortable throwing their hats in the ring but…I wouldn’t call it something to job search over, I guess.

    2. Asenath*

      It might be, or it might not be. Sometimes they do have someone in mind for the job, and word gets out, discouraging other applicants. Sometimes, there aren’t many people qualified, and those who are prefer to stay at their present job. Sometimes, there’s something about the job itself that discouraged applicants – the person will report to a notorious boss, or manage a group that’s well-known to be dysfunctional or perhaps on the chopping block in some upcoming reorganization. Or maybe it’s just a dead end.

    3. LQ*

      It depends. Honestly, sometimes the jobs are predestined. I’ve gotten jobs like this and I’ve skipped applying for cool-looking jobs because of this (and I’ve applied and only realized later that it was this). Would it be better if there was a better way to handle promotions? Yes, absolutely.

      But I’m going to say that I also, quite frankly, think that interviews are a shit way of making hiring decisions overall when you have a giant body of potentially years of work to work from. You can do tests and all that, sure. But seriously, if someone has been working for you for years and you think that one hour-long conversation is a better determinant of if that person will be a good employee then all the rest of everything then that’s a weird, broken process.

      If it was every single job internally, then yes, that’s a problem. If all the people who get into those roles are of a certain kind (race, gender, extroversion, whatever…) then it’s a big problem.

      But if sometimes everyone who might have looked at it and said “oooOOoo shiny job!” instead says, “yeah but questiony is clearly the right person and has been groomed for this and will be good at it, I’m not going to bother.” I don’t know that it’s a problem.
      If everyone (or even more than just that one angry person, it should really be nearly everyone on board with these kinds of roles) looks at it and goes. “Stupid questiony is horrible and they promoted someone who doesn’t even know how to do anything, management is stupid and this company is on fire.” Then yeah you have a problem.

      (I may be biased because I’m hoping for a job with my work history and skills all over it soon. So take as you will.)

      1. Questionly*

        Great points. Thank you!

        You also brought up having to interview for internal promotion type jobs- which I didn’t mention, but in this case, everyone interested had to be interviewed. And throwing your hat in the ring involved formally submitting an up-to-date resume and cover letter. And 90% of the team has worked together here reporting to this manager for the last 6 or 7 years. So yeah, there’s that too.

        The responses here have helped me get a better handle on a big part of what is irking me. The opening of the job up to the team and having this interview process comes across more as openness “theater”.

        “We create lots of opportunities for growth here.” Except they don’t.

        “We plan to carefully review all interested parties’ qualifications before we make a decision. It is very fair.” Except that maybe only one person was ever going to be considered for the job. But they still even made that person jump through hoops to apply and the manager already knows everything they need to know to make a decision because they’ve been working here for almost a decade.

        But the hiring manager can still go home today feeling like they did a good and fair job and are in no way failing in one key area of their own job.

        1. LQ*

          I get the annoyance with openness theater, which I totally agree with.

          But if they still promoted from inside that is an opportunity for growth. I think some of this gets a bit weird because I feel like I don’t understand some of it. I work in a division where every single person in a leadership role of any kind was promoted internally, and well over 80% of the “professional” jobs (aka things that have a career path all their own normally) were folks who were promoted and trained into those roles from entry level customer service type jobs that didn’t require any training before getting that job. You need a bachelors in accounting, but if you start in customer service we’ll train you and pay for you to get all the skills and training you need.

          But people constantly complain about no growth opportunities.

          There are a lot of training tools and opportunities offered, which are entirely on company time (and this is all hourly work, so it’s not like someone’s being expected to work 60 hours AND then learn on top of that. There are opportunities for people to work on special projects, to learn about the organization, to take short term jobs on other teams.

          I don’t see it. And I feel like I’ve never seen it. Every time I try to talk to someone about it, it always seems to come back to 2 things, 1, you wouldn’t understand you are a favorite (I do a ton of great work, sorry, but I do, often way above my pay grade, and it’s been seen, and yes, I do that because I volunteer and listen and use the tools, but I’m no one’s friend, I don’t hang out or smoke or party or anything else with anyone in leadership, and my door is always open to talk through with people how they can do the same…) and 2, well yeah THOSE people got opportunities, and you’re fine because you do good work, but there isn’t something special for me.

          I think for me I see the openness happens at the long long before time. It happens when the boss’s boss stops in at a team meeting and talks about an upcoming project and no one raises a hand to step up, when no one else asks a good question. When a project is due and the deadlines get blown and shrugged about. When there is a chance to do training and folks grouse and complain instead of engaging. When the big boss tells you about upcoming work and you are bored or distracted. All of those moments are the moments when the real openness happens (at least around here).

          Once there is a job, it’s absolutely openness theater, which makes me crazy.

          (I really appreciate this conversation because it’s something that’s coming up a lot right now in the area I work in and I absolutely don’t understand it. So many people have so many opportunities they don’t take advantage of. I try really hard to talk with folks about it but I feel like I’m really missing the point of what they are saying. Which I suspect is due in part to me being biased based on doing horribly in interviews and great at working. I hate that interviews are the most important part of getting a job, so I suspect I like that what matters more is the work I do day to day than the interview which I do for an hour.)

          1. Questiony*

            Omg- you hit the nail on the head about opportunities and what they often look like. It really is hard to see them sometimes, especially earlier in a career!

            And upon reflection, I also need to remind myself that the higher up you go the less jobs you have to begin with. So even in the best of organizations, there becomes a scarcity of job opportunities.

            Thanks to all who commented! It really does help to get some outside perspectives!

  177. Purrscilla*

    Random question related to disability accommodations:

    I have a friend who has been having medical symptoms “stomach problems” for some time which causes them to take sick days (or partial days) fairly often. They’ve had a bunch of tests done but they have no diagnosis. They are also job hunting. I asked them how it was going the other day, and they mentioned that they’d spoken to one place and disclosed their medical issues and that the company had turned them down on the grounds that they need somebody with reliable attendance.

    I feel that this seems wrong, but most of the info I’ve seen about accommodations is for the USA and we’re in Canada (BC if it matters).

    On the one hand they may genuinely need reliable coverage (note that this isn’t customer service or anything, but it’s an internal support position – think IT desk where this person would be the sole person responsible for supporting a team). On the other hand, they could hire somebody who subsequently gets sick and then they’d have to figure out coverage, so I feel like they could probably do it from the start.

    Are there any Canadians on the site who know the legalities of this?

    2. WellRed*

      Can’t speak to legality but don’t disclose before an offer is in hand. Ever. Even with laws in place, this sort of thing is hard to prove.

    3. Venus*

      Agreed with the above points – check out duty to accommodate, and only mention it when given an offer.

      Companies have to accommodate up to what is ‘reasonable’, which is hard to define for a small company.

      It’s so hard when there is no diagnosis, as one doesn’t know how one might be doing in a few months. Will the condition be worse, or will it be resolved by a little pill or change in diet? If your friend is currently employed and able to postpone job hunting for a bit then it might be better for their health too (less stress if they aren’t applying to jobs). This assumes they are likely to get a diagnosis in the next 12 months, as some conditions take so long to sort out that it’s not worth the wait. Good luck to your friend!

  178. RedinSC*

    We have an AmeriCorps volunteer working with us until July. She is helping me out with some things and her business writing is very FORMAL. Which, for us as a folksy non profit seems a bit weird.

    So, do I coach her on less formal business writing or let her do her thing? There’s nothing wrong with it, just not quite our style here.

    Your thoughts?

    1. Beancounter Eric*

      Leave her alone and see what happens. Either people will push back, the status quo will prevail, or they will improve their writing style to keep up.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Are these external documents, like reports for clients? Then yeah, I think it’s fine to coach her a little. One of the things about business writing is that one’s voice should be tailored to one’s task or company– she’s in AmeriCorps and presumably there to learn, so I think this is a good opportunity for coaching about speaking in the voice of the brand.

      I had to do the opposite when I started writing for my company. My boss sent back a report and said, “This is really good but please use fewer contractions. I want our reports to be more formal.” I’ve still managed to maintain my voice for the most part, especially in blog posts.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Actually, I will add that you’re in a good position if she’s already a good writer. In my experience, coaching a terrible writer on style is really difficult, but a good writer has foundations on which to build.

      2. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

        Totally agree. If this person wants to do jobs that involve professional writing, helping her learn to match the tone and voice of the organization is valuable training! Could be as simple as choosing 3 emails from 3 ppl at your org that have the folksy tone, showing them to her, and asking her to read them and consider how the tone that she writes in sounds different than that of the org. Tell her that if it helps, she can read them (and hers) aloud to herself, doing that really tends to help people when they’re writing is more formal, especially, to be able to “hear” the difference. Doesn’t have to be a high stakes convo, just a fun exercise in branding.

        1. WellRed*

          Professional writer here. Nothing wrong with asking her to match your style and tone. She may not get it perfectly, but she might get it close enough for you to tweak.

  179. Mockingjay*

    Just a vent about lazy coworkers.

    All of our work – tasks, docs, schedules – is tracked and routed through a SharePoint system. (The entire org uses this system, not just my project.) The team members – ALL of them – will not use the system. A work item is created, say to write a report, and is assigned to one of our team members. It will sit untouched until the world ends. No writing, no progress. Due date blows by.

    I am the tech writer. While I have a heavy hand in document content, I am not the document “owner.” Yet somehow, my position has been morphed into Office Mom who tracks the kids’ homework. They want me to remind them when their tasks are due. (Uh, click “My Tasks.”) They will send me long, rambling emails that I have to comb through for inputs to paste into the document itself. They will never update the task worklog and assign it to the next person. And so on. (Yes, they have been trained multiple times on the system and process.)

    I talked to my project lead (this is one of many issues we’re having recently) and he said he was fine with me pushing back on this stuff (did I mention he’s one of the main offenders?). But I don’t think he realizes just how many items are late, let alone not started.

    I am so TIRED of having to remind grown adults (a team of 20) to do the work that they are paid to do. There aren’t enough hours in the day for me to chase 20 people daily to remind them to review a draft. (By the way, I did try that for a while. Nothing happened. “Yeah, yeah, I’ll get that done…,” then crickets.) I’m just worried that by letting this stuff slide, it will blow back on me.

    1. Mama Bear*

      Are they generally programmers and engineers? If so, words that are not code might be the least of their concerns. I feel your pain – I regularly have to (and had to at my old job) track down SMEs to get them to do work and many a night I would be sweating a deadline because I didn’t have the information. Do you have any sort of JIRA system? If so, put the docs in there and let the scrum or task master know when something is going undone. You can also use a Kanban board, like Trello, but if they’re already familiar with a ticketing system, it might be easier to do it that way. Ask the team what will get the most attention, because their inability to do the work means you can’t do your work. I know the “joke” is that tech writers write things no one will ever read but it they still need to assist you with this job. We had daily scrums on my small team and in that scrum I would say “The Monthly Report is due no later than x so that means I need everyone’s data by y so it can be reviewed. This is a hard deadline.” I’d get the PM involved as necessary, everything from a gentle “So and So didn’t provide this data – do you have it?” to “The is due to the client per our SOW in three days. I have nothing from SME1. This is a contractual obligation. If SME1 can’t do it, I need someone else, today.”

      If you think your PL isn’t aware of the scope, I’d track all of it – what was assigned, when and how long did it linger and how many hours did you spend chasing people to do their jobs? PL may respond better to data. Good luck.

    2. So That Just Happened...*

      Oh man, I feel this on a deep level.

      I’m the de facto tech admin at our org (not by choice) and I cant get people to track things on Asana to save my life. Can you push back when they send emails and instead of engaging tell them you need it in Sharepoint? I found that with my team I was too much of an enabler, and even though I look a bit like an asshole when I now do it, if they ask for updates or due date, instead of reminding them yet again, I tell them to check Asana. They’re grown adults, I dont need to hold their hand.

      So yeah, not so much advice as me mentally sending you 1000 kittens in a giant cuddly pile to comfort you. That sucks.

    3. Lazy Cat's Mom*

      Not defending your co-workers for not doing their job but could any of it be unfamiliarity with SharePoint? We’ve been slowly, very slowly, transitioning to it in my office. For me, part of the problem is that there’s been no clear training on it and many links don’t go where you think they will. Plus we’re still using multiple programs for different tasks. It’s really frustrating.

  180. Laura*

    I had a second phone interview with Planned Parenthood, which was off-putting. I applied for a clinic assistant position over a month ago and had my first phone interview with an HR person last week, which went well. I wrote a thank you note to the HR manager via email since she said I’d hear from them with the next steps next week, and early this week the clinic manager emailed me to ask for a second phone interview. I’ve never had two phone interviews before an in person one, but for an organization as big as PP, it’s understandable why the clinic manager would want to speak with me via phone before interviewing me in person. I respond to the clinic manager confirming the date she proposed, and asked if I needed to prepare anything, to which she said no.

    When I have the phone interview yesterday, the clinic manager says she’s going to test me on my Spanish and starts asking me questions in Spanish that I was not prepared for. I am proficient in Spanish, but not medical.terms. The outpatient mental health clinic where I work does not provide translation services, so our patients are expected to communicate in English. When I told her I wasn’t prepared to answer the questions in Spanish – and that I was told no when asked if I would need to prepare anything – she seemed cool with it. The HR person said they wanted someone bilingual at the first interview, after I asked what stood out about my application. However, she didn’t make it seem like my not being bilingual was a deal breaker. I checked the website and this position at both locations I applied to (Redwood City & Mountain View, CA) DID NOT LIST BEING BILINGUAL AS A REQUIREMENT.

    I’m very honest about my language ability in both my resume and online applications. I list something along the lines of, “English (fluent), French (proficient), and Spanish (proficient).” If PP really wanted someone who is bilingual, they should have mentioned that in the job post in the first place, and then I would not have wasted their/my time applying!

    Has anyone else had a similar experience of having a job requirement imposed on them not listed in the job description once they interview? My friend thinks requiring someone to be bilingual after the job description does not say that is illegal. I’ve seen jobs that wanted bilingual applicants, so maybe my friend is overreacting. Legally, a prospective employer cannot ask what an applicant’s “native tongue” is, but they can ask, “what languages do you read, speak, and write fluently.” Also, one of the cities (Mountain View) is – at least in my knowledge, as I’ve only lived in the peninsula for ~4 mos – is not a city with a large population of native Spanish speakers.

    I’d appreciate some insights, as I’m not sure how to move forward. Thank you!

    1. Mama Bear*

      I think as long as you are really clear what you mean by “proficient” it should be OK. They may prefer someone who is Bilingual, but may be OK with someone who knows some Spanish and can learn more. If they really need someone who is fluent, then they’ll hopefully make that decision before making an offer. I don’t think it’s illegal to clarify how proficient you want/need someone to be. It may be a case of person x wrote the description and person y really knows what the position needs. We had a lot of that at my old job, and it was up to the interviewers to figure out who was really a good fit and who was not or how much Python was really necessary for the project. If you’re worried, clarify that with your interviewer.

      1. Laura*

        Great advice! I’m sure I said at the initial phone interview that I’m not fluent, and while I can have everyday conversations with native Spanish speakers, I don’t fully understand medical/customer service terminology in the language. Languages have been a strong suit, as I always got A’s in high school French (took 4 years, so was able to waive the language requirement in college) and was inspired to teach myself Spanish when I got my first job out of college at an all-Latino boys middle school in DC. I took online courses and used apps to learn the language, and the grade I received in the online Spanish course designated me as “proficient” along with a letter grade of A. :) I have also translated for friends/family who do not speak either language. Not that PP needs to know this info, but just wanted to give some context here of depth of my language abilities.

        I agree with you it is not illegal for an interviewer to clarify how proficient they want/need someone to be, as legally an employer can ask what languages someone reads, speaks, and writes fluently. Of course employers are entitled to decide what skills they want employees to have, but they should be upfront about this in the job post. Perhaps PP is one of those organizations that responds to every applicant, but later imposes additional requirements as a way of screening candidates. Maybe they received applicants from others who had similar experience as me, so they felt being bilingual would be a way they can narrow down potential applicants.

        I’ll reach out to my interviewer and clarify how important of a requirement being bilingual is, and see what she says.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I think if you put your language skills on a resume, you should be prepared to demonstrate them in the interview — but given that they weren’t listed as requirement, I can see why you’d feel rattled!

      When I was hired for a phone service job, being bilingual definitely put my resume at the top of the hire pile. They were hiring for both bilingual and monolingual reps, so that being bilingual wasn’t a requirement for consideration, but preference was given to bilingual candidates. A portion of my interview was conducted in Spanish, which was part of maintaining that status at the front of the priority line.

      1. Laura*

        I’ve gone on MANY interviews for the 7 years I’ve been out of college, and not until yesterday have I been asked to demonstrate language proficiency despite having those languages on my resume. Let alone demonstrate language proficiency for a job whose description does not require applicants be bilingual. That being said, I do agree with your logic that an employer is going to want to test an applicant who lists languages on their proficiency. I have heard that being bilingual can give applicants an advantage, especially for jobs that have a bilingual differential.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It’s not illegal for a job description to be incomplete, nor is it illegal for needs to change throughout the process. It’s also not illegal for one staff person to think the job requires one thing and another to disagree.

      I would advise you to step back and take a deep breath here, because right now, it sounds to me like what you have is this:

      – You said you were proficient in Spanish, so your interviewer decided to test you. You weren’t prepared and you said so, your interviewer was ok with that. Take her at her word.
      – The HR person said they wanted someone bilingual, not that they required it. Which means that if you’re a stellar candidate, they will accept proficiency. She said it wasn’t a dealbreaker. Take her at her word.

      How do you move forward? You send a follow-up email and thank your interviewer for her time. You might mention that after your meeting you’ve chosen to improve your already solid Spanish skills with some more medical vocabulary or something like that. And reiterate your interest in the position.

      You’re not rejected until you’re rejected.

      1. Laura*

        Definitely makes sense that a job description/requirements can change throughout the process. It’s likely that whomever wrote the job description that listed X requirements was not aware that my interviewers wanted Y. I didn’t think an incomplete/changing job description was illegal, but my friend did, so that’s why I mentioned it.

        One of the most important lessons I learned from the career center staff I worked with in college is that applicants don’t know what’s on the interviewer’s/company’s side of the hiring process, which is encouraging because even if I don’t get the job, it may not be about me personally. My initial interviewer was impressed with both my medical receptionist experience AND support of PP’s mission (I’ve been pro-contraception and pro-choice since I was a teenager, despite having attended/worked at Catholic schools where many did not share these beliefs). Even if I don’t get invited for an in person interview/the job, at least I will be able to reasonably guess they want someone who is bilingual. In my opinion, being rejected for not being bilingual is better than being rejected because I was rude, didn’t know/care about the company, etc.

    4. VelociraptorAttack*

      I agree with Mama Bear, I think it may be a case of it’s not a requirement but they would someone who is bilingual. Per American Community Survey data (hosted on census.gov), nearly 20% of Mountain View and 31% of Redwood City speak Spanish at home so it’s a decent chunk, it may even be possible that they had a number of applicants who have some requirements and speak Spanish so it’s something that would have been a positive in your column but might not be a negative. I don’t think you have any evidence that it is now a solid requirement, you said the clinic manager seemed cool and the HR person said it wouldn’t be an issue. See how things play out but it definitely doesn’t seem like they are concerned.

      1. Laura*

        Thank you for the stats! I knew RWC had a significant Spanish speaking population, as I have seen English/Spanish signs in businesses, but wasn’t sure about MV. Nice to interact with someone who is familiar with my geographic area. :)

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s hard to know someone’s native language by just existing in a community for awhile, you tend to stick to your own areas and don’t go into the pockets that house many of the ESL folks. Nobody would have guessed by just residing in our community that we have a large population but they exist. And they are the exact demographic [lower income, less access to healthcare services] that places like Planned Parenthood work with a lot.

      That aside, you said you were proficient so that’s on them for assuming that means you’re fluent! There’s a big difference between those two.

      They certainly won’t rule you out simply for not being bilingual but they can use it as the tie-breaker in the end. Since it’s an “extra” that is a desirable quality that helps their client base.

      1. Laura*

        You make an excellent point, as cities often have multiple neighborhoods. A great example is Oakland which has neighborhoods that are mono and bi-lingual. It makes sense why PP and other community based health centers would want or look for a Spanish speaking employee, given that this demographic often is lower income and has less access to healthcare services. There is definitely a big difference between being “proficient” and “fluent” in a language, so the confusion is on them. If I was invited for a second interview, I obviously wasn’t ruled out, but it may be a tie breaker in the end.

        The clinic manager said she’d let me know early next week if I move forward with an in person interview. I will follow up with a thank you email, so will confirm (per the recommendation of another commenter) how important being bilingual is to her.

    6. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Hmmm, I would say that… I don’t really see them doing anything wrong here?

      Well, ok, first, I’ll start with, it’s not illegal to decide to require something later in the process that’s not included in the job description. It’s fishy if you require different things for different candidates – ie, maybe rejecting a black candidate because they’re not proficient enough in Spanish, but then hiring a white candidate of roughly the same proficiency level – but there’s nothing wrong with deciding to prioritize fluency later on in the process. It’s not even illegal to decide to require it but not put that on the job description (it would be dumb, but not illegal by any means).

      They interviewed you in part because you’re proficient in Spanish. They tested that and found that you wouldn’t be able to work with patients/other doctors in Spanish on day 1. So, it’s not really that helpful to them that you’re proficient, since you’d still have a learning curve on medical terms before you could do the job in Spanish (or, perhaps they’re fine with the learning curve but a fully bilingual candidate would be preferred).

      I think it’s fine for you to decide that you can’t do this job in Spanish and, thus, you’re not the right fit. But I don’t think that the org did anything wrong here; if I read “proficient in Spanish” on a resume for a clinic assistant, I would honestly assume that meant they could do the job in Spanish. I can see how that might be a faulty assumption, the way you’ve laid it out here, but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable one. (And, I don’t think they erred in not telling you to prep for it; if they want someone who can do the job in Spanish, that person would presumably not need to prepare specifically do to that).

      I would say, if you’re still interested in the job, just wait to hear back. Maybe they’re interested in you even without the Spanish skills, maybe they’re interested in you if you’d be willing to take on that learning curve to be able to perform the job in Spanish. Worth seeing if you’re otherwise interested!

      1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

        (sorry, i see now that I’m reiterating some of what others have said; my computer didn’t refresh! Didn’t mean to pile on. I can totally see why you’re frustrated at this!)

        1. Laura*

          No worries, computers can be weird. I agree with you that it’s not illegal to change job descriptions, although it does feel misleading. Not sure why my friend thought changing job descriptions was illegal. In an organization as big as PP, it’s certainly possible the person who wrote the job description is unaware of the specific clinic’s needs. Or maybe the website’s description was for the position in general, not specific clinic’s needs.

          Being “proficient” and “fluent” in language are very different. I’ve heard of people being tested for jobs that ask for fluency in the target language having to interview in that language, which makes total sense. But I’ve never heard of/experienced being tested in languages listed as “proficient.” Or maybe they wanted to test language ability even if the job description doesn’t require/prefer it as people may have applied to/held the job saying they were fluent in Spanish when they were not – not that this reason is likely, just throwing it out as a possible reason.

          Since I don’t know who I’m up against in the hiring process, some possible scenarios involve 1) my being offered an in person interview (and maybe the job) knowing that I’m not fluent in Spanish but meet the other requirements or 2) being told that I’m a strong candidate but they decided to go with someone who is bilingual.

          Since I learn languages quickly (actually taught myself Spanish), I’m sure I’ll pick up medical vocabulary quickly if I am hired. My impression so far seems that not being bilingual isn’t an automatic deal breaker, especially if my medical receptionist experience – especially familiarity with EMR/EHR – stood out to them.

      2. Fulana del Tal*

        Totally agree about proficient meaning able to do the job Spanish. Proficient could mean different things, it could mean high school level or non-native fluent.
        Also the OP states patients at her current job expected to speak in English, that may not be an option for a PP based in California. Which maybe another reason being bilingual is so important.

        1. Laura*

          I’m the OP and I work and live in CA – different city and same geographic region as PP. Sorry if that was unclear. It may be possible that the hiring managers see “proficient” as “being able to do the job in Spanish.” Or maybe the language requirement isn’t a deal breaker.

          To be clear, the patients being expected to speak in English at my job is not something I agree should be the case- just what I have been told. This issue is something that requires a more in depth discussion within my company, not the internet.

    7. MatKnifeNinja*

      Where I live, bilingual means you are totally fluent in both languages. My niece speaks fluent Japanese and English. Reads and writes both. That is what bilingual means for jobs here where you are dealing face to face with people or on the phone.

      I know when my school districts look for bilingual instructors, you almost have to be second generation speakers. I never see average American who learned the language through school. It’s always someone who has (for example) Chinese parents, and is fluent in both Mandarin and English.

      They should have told you proficient wouldn’t cut it. It’s on them for not being more clear.

      You aren’t rejected until you get told no. Hang in there!

      1. Laura*

        My understanding of bilingual is the same as yours. I’ve had “proficiency in Spanish” listed on my resume for many years, and have never been tested on it until yesterday. Even with fluency, there is a difference between being “fluent” (aka citizen of an English speaking country who studied/lived in a non-English speaking country for years) and a “native speaker” in that language. Someone who is a native speaker might be more credible to the population being served given that they understand not only the language but also the culture. Many cultures look down upon seeking treatment (esp for mental and sexual health). In the US, an employer cannot advertise hiring “a native speaker” as that would allow them to discriminate based on nationality.

        I used to work in education, and my first job out of college was at an all-Latino boys elementary school. Not all of the staff were native Spanish speakers (or even fluent). When I’ve subbed for French and Spanish classes, those teachers were generally native speakers, not Americans who learned those languages through school.

        While PP (and any company) has the right to determine skills for the job, they should have been more clear about proficiency not cutting it. But who knows, maybe proficiency is okay if I have the other skills!

    8. pcake*

      I’ve seen many job listings that are incomplete, and if you’re a regular AAM reader, you’ve seen plenty of readers who were hired for completely different jobs than the listings and the interviews described. It’s a pain in the posterior, but it definitely happens.

      Since your resume says you’re proficient in Spanish and French, and you’re trying to get a medical job, it might make sense to start boning up on medical terms and phrases commonly used to patients in a clinic setting.

      1. Laura*

        Great suggestion! I know there are apps/courses for medical Spanish, but haven’t seen any for medical French. Seems like Spanish is more commonly spoken than French (at least in CA).

    9. Henrietta Huffenstuffs*

      1. Her talking to you in Spanish isn’t evidence that they required or preferred someone bilingual.
      2. Job ads are often incomplete or unrealistic.
      3. Preferences aren’t requirements.
      4. You sure you want the hiring managers to see this?

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Your #4 is a great point. There are a lot of reasons people anonymize company names (and their own names!) and job titles. This is a good one of those reasons– if I were the hiring manager and saw this thread, it might give me pause.

    10. froggydog*

      I work in public health in northern CA. When we hire, especially for clinical work, we always prefer bilingual applicants. Sometimes a position requires a bilingual applicant and it’ll be stated right on there that we only want someone bilingual, but even for other positions if we have two applicants who are pretty much identical in terms of experience, we would always take the bilingual one (or the one who has a HIGH degree of Spanish proficiency if they are not bilingual). We don’t necessarily put that in the job posting, because it’s not a requirement and we wouldn’t want to discourage highly qualified english-only speakers from applying. For those positions we would rather be selecting from a group of the most highly qualified people in the area and possibly get some highly qualified bilingual applicants who would be our first choice, vs possibly a lower amount of possibly less qualified applicants if we limited it to bilingual only. Which it sounds like is going on here. They likely already have interpreters, but it’s always always beneficial to have as many Spanish speaking (or Hmong/Cantonese also where I am) staff on hand.

      1. valentine*

        we would rather be selecting from a group of the most highly qualified people in the area and possibly get some highly qualified bilingual applicants who would be our first choice, vs possibly a lower amount of possibly less qualified applicants if we limited it to bilingual only.
        I think this is what’s happening. You might end up second only to someone fluent in medical Spanish. I think you’ve seized on this because you’re uncomfortable with what you feel is a bad grade when you consider yourself an A student in language learning. Bringing it up in the thank you note seems like a challenge and they might consider it aggressive or see you as too anxious and high-maintenance. Letting it lie is probably what’s best.

  181. Wombats!!!*

    A quick question for you guys. Is it legal in Canada to have a company policy which says you can’t discuss salary with your coworkers?

    1. Dove*

      Also in Canada, and as far as I’m aware? No. It’s not legal, any more than it would be legal in the US to have a similar policy.

  182. Fikly*

    Very late in the day, but could use some advice around work socializing as holiday events start coming up.

    I work for a company with a little under 100 employees. I am one of two people who work overnight shifts, and I’m also remote (though I live locally and will occasionally stop by the office for big things every couple of months).

    Because of these two factors, I often feel like I miss out on knowing my coworkers, especially beyond my immediate team. We have a Halloween thing coming up (family friendly, bring your kids by the office to trick or treat) plus holiday party, and they both fall solidly during my sleeping window.

    I’m trying to figure out if I should make a big effort to rearrange things to attend something. Part of the issue is that I feel a bit like I’m missing out, but a larger concern is will it look like I’m not wanting to participate? Most people outside of my immediate team don’t realize I’m on overnights, because my position is the only one that requires overnight coverage.

    1. Mama Bear*

      I’d talk to your manager about options. I used to be remote (both PT and FT) and there were times I missed out. It’s hard when events never seem to include you. Is it too late to plan a holiday gig that is at a good time for everyone? Maybe an evening event vs an afternoon one?

      1. Fikly*

        Our social events are usually mid-afternoon to account for the early shifts and the later shifts (ie, 7-4, 3-11) and I go to sleep at 2pm wake up at 10pm, so I solidly miss the window.

        We did just start doing mixer small group lunches once a month, with the idea of free food + meet coworkers on other teams, and I am able to make those, so I do feel included in that respect (and my company even has the option to video chat into these lunches for remote workers – there are other remotes than me who work days).

        I can participate in the lunch thing, and I did really enjoy the first one, so that does kind of swing my perspective – I get to do some of it, just not all of it, and that’s probably fine from both a “how am I being perceived?” perspective and my own want to know my coworkers.

        1. WellRed*

          I think if you are making the lunch things you’re good. I doubt anyone notices you don’t make all the events. Especially if you’re remote. If you really want to participate in something, can you go for a hour then go home to sleep? Many of us with normal hours lose an hour or two if we hit an evening party ( but with your hours, maybe unadvisable). It’s nice to hear from someone not trying to duck social work events.

          1. Fikly*

            The problem is that I go to bed at 2pm and wake up at 10pm. If the event starts at 3pm, I leave at 4pm, it’s 5:30pm by the time I get home, and practically, 6:30pm or later by the time I’m sleeping, and I just can’t do that, because that’s 3 1/2 hours of sleep before my shift.

            Thanks for the thoughts! I’m navigating my first non-toxic job, and trying to figure out healthy norms.

    2. FrustratedWithAdmin*

      I’m typically one who thinks that participating in some stuff like holiday parties or an occasional lunch is just part of being an employee and has to be tolerated. But, in your case, it makes perfect sense if you can’t go. And I think they would understand.
      Now if you feel left out and want to socialize more with your co-workers that’s another matter. But I think it is a personal choice. Not a work requirement.

      1. Fikly*

        The reason I’m feeling borderline is because I feel like the socializing is a bit more like networking? In that it is useful to my work to meet/know some of the people on other teams because I will occasionally cross paths with them, and it’s helpful to know them a bit first, or even have an idea of what they do/who to approach for a specific need.

        But the occasional lunch is much easier for me to make than the afternoon/evening socializing, and we just started a monthly meet small groups of your fellow employees on other teams lunch, so that may be the right solution here!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It makes perfect sense if you don’t attend the social events, especially since you’re nights and remote. I would hope people would be reasonable and understand that it’s not weird or you being anti-social for not attending!

      But I think that if you want to or even have a slight desire to go, you should work with your manager to make it happen. We always want everyone to participate who wants to and enjoy seeing people more than we regularly don’t [we see our night shift in passing and don’t get a chance to know them because of the ships-in-the-night setup].

      1. Fikly*

        That’s a fair point! I had been hesitating on bringing this up with my manager (who is awesome) because if I was going to go in for an event, and I was scheduled to work that overnight, I wouldn’t be able to work. But the other overnight is not at all local, so there’s no chance of her attending, and she might be willing to switch shifts with me, which would be an option.

        Or, potentially I could take a PTO, because I do have some to burn before the year ends (we’re switching to unlimited for next year! I’m so excited!) and have that be the solution for this year. Thank you!

  183. BeeGee*

    So I highly doubt I will offered a job or additional interview for a position I recently interviewed in-person for, and I suspect that they didn’t hire anyone for the role yet. I saw a similar job opening that was posted by the company a few days prior to my in-person interview, with the “senior” title removed but yet no real changes in the requirements/role. It’s a little more of a niche role, so it’s unlikely the company will find someone with direct work experience to fill the position, and I suspect many potential candidates haven’t applied to the role due to the fact they may think that they wouldn’t be considered without this experience. I applied without direct experience, and I was able to discuss how my skills would be transferable. I recall on LinkedIn that few applied to the original opening and only 3 have applied to this new post despite being open for 27 days.

    Not holding my breath or anything, but do companies ever revisit or reconsider candidates that they already interviewed if they ultimately can’t get the “perfect candidate“ that they are looking for to fill the role? Does anyone have any experiences on either the employer or employee side of this situation?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We’ve revisited candidates that were previously passed on if they were just simply edged out by someone else and it wasn’t a matter of rejecting them for something glaring [like they weren’t going to fit at all or had a terrible interview, you know?]. It truly depends on why they were passed up to begin with. Sometimes people change their expectations and idea of the role during the hiring process, so they may go back and say “that person actually would work out well for it, now that we have taken our expectations for experience down a few notches” or what have you.

    3. Alianora*

      Well, it’s not exactly the same situation, but we recently hired someone who my manager had interviewed for the same position a few years back. She was way too nervous the first time and my manager couldn’t get a good sense of what she was like. This time, she was still noticeably nervous but calm enough to answer the questions so we hired her.

      Might be a long shot, but it doesn’t seem like you have anything to lose at least. Good luck!

  184. Lady Director*

    So, interviewed for a sideways role with an international NGO this week. This would come with a 3 hour round trip commute when at home, and frequent (at least monthly) international travel. If an offer comes in I’m thinking about asking for some sort of flexibility, likely compressed work weeks or a mix of home and office based.

    Other Exec level folks, has anyone managed to request this and actually do it (particularly the compressed work week option)?

  186. Autumnal*

    I just interviewed for a promotion at my current job. All of the communication about the position from HR/Recruitment was through my personal email, which makes sense.

    I want to send thank you emails to everyone (about 10 folks)—should I send them through my work email? Or through my personal one? I was thinking personal, since that was the tone set by HR, but will the non-HR people think that is odd?

    If it matters 8 of the people work with me directly (and know me well) and 2 do not. Am I overthinking this?

    1. Allypopx*

      Yes, you’re overthinking it! It won’t matter either way, they’ll just appreciate the gesture.

      I’d base it on whether or not you’re comfortable with everyone having your personal email (including the 2 who don’t know you well, it should be consistent). If you’re not, or you’re iffy, work email is fine.

  187. AnonPi*

    Any recommendations for ergonomic keyboards/mice? I got the go ahead to replace my current keyboard since the keys are sticking, and was told to go ahead and get a new mouse too. I’ve been using the Logitech Wave, and it’s not too bad but thought I’d look into other options. I did try another Logitech keyboard here at work, a MK710 and really like how easy the keys are to press but would prefer a keyboard that is larger. I brought my Microsoft 4000 keyboard from home to try (I don’t type near as much so wasn’t sure how I’d like it for a heavy use keyboard). I like it pretty well, the size and the curve is good, but do wish the keys were a little easier to press.

    For mice I’ve been switching back and forth between a regular small mouse and Logitec M570 roller mouse. I like the roller mouse a lot, but I think it’s a bit big for my hand or the constant stretch of the palm doesn’t feel good, so I can’t use it all the time. I’ve thought about trying a vertical mouse, but am just hesitant what to get in case I don’t like it. I know it could be sent back, but hate to spend the time and money doing it much since this is all coming out of our department funds.

    2. juliebulie*

      If you like trackballs, the very large CST Trackballs are great. The buttons are huge and easy to press. They even make a model that has output jacks for additional buttons or even pedals. AND you can adjust the resolution/speed.

      (I used to use a thumb trackball, and it ended up being bad for my thumb.)

      When I need a mouse, I use an Evoluent because, in addition to having a unique and wrist-friendly shape, it is also available in different sizes (and I think they have left-handed ones too). It also lets you adjust the speed/resolution.

      My keyboard is an ancient Goldtouch which is split in half, with a ball hinge at the top, so you can rotate the two sides apart in addition to raising them up in the middle. Highly, highly recommended.

      I strongly recommend that you buy the wired version of whatever you get if at all possible.

    3. LQ*

      It’s not for everyone but I absolutely love the Logitech Trackman Marble. The other thing I recommend is considering not just one device. I switch between different devices on heavy computer days. I have a trackpad at home which is also different, so regular mouse, trackball, trackpad, and whenever I can get away with it, handwriting stuff too. The variety helps me out. (I absolutely would not hesitate to ask for 2 devices at work to switch between.)

      1. juliebulie*

        Having a bunch of devices in rotation is definitely helpful! And honestly it might be cheaper to alternate among three inexpensive devices than one super-expensive device.

    4. AnonPi*

      Thanks for the suggestions! One of my coworkers use the Logitech Trackman Marbles and I had been eyeing it since it looks like it might fit my hand better. She’s going on vacation later next week so I’ll see if she’d let me try it while she’s gone. I had looked at the evoluent and other vertical mice – if the Logitech isn’t a good fit I think I’ll give one of those a try.

  188. Tea Jay*

    Just a small question (and I’ve never commented here before), but does it look unprofessional to have stickers on your laptop?
    I just started college, and I know I’ll have a summer internship coming up in a year or two. I’ll have the same computer then barring an accident. I also love stickers very much, especially cute or vaguely silly ones. I’m not planning to put anything obscene, political, or too weird on there, but do you think it would it affect people’s opinions?

    1. Alianora*

      Depends on what your field is. I probably wouldn’t *advise* an intern to put cutesy stickers on their laptop because the truth is it could come across as childish in some workplaces. But it very much depends on other factors, and if you comport yourself professionally I don’t think it would be a big deal in most cases.

      But also, people don’t usually use their personal computers for work, including internships (at least in my area.) At my own internship and when we’ve hired temporary workers, they always got a work-provided computer. So it may not be an issue.

    3. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      Yeah, like Alianora says, it depends a bit on the field, but I love laptop stickers too, and I’ve stickered up most of my work laptops too (at places where it was clearly OK to do so). There’s nothing inherently unprofessional about it, and I doubt most people would look askance at a personal laptop with stickers on it.

    4. Zona the Great*

      No I don’t believe it would matter one bit. Just like the Sloth pencil case–do you, boo.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If they’re having you use your own laptop, they can kick rocks if they want to judge you for stickers on yours, tbh.

      As noted, you probably won’t have to worry, they’ll have a business laptop for you to use, not your own personal one!

      It will depend on the industry you’re interning in. A conservative one like finance or law would probably stink-face at it and not appreciate it. A creative environment or tech start up is more likely to not even notice.

      This kind of stuff is pretty easy to figure out when you interview somewhere, look around a bit and see what people’s personal spaces look like. If they’re funky and creative with action figures or whatever else, then really don’t worry about it.

    7. LQ*

      All of the really hardcore technical folks I work with have laptops littered with stickers. A lot very tech stickers to declare their love of whatever. But plenty just personality ones too. (Except one person who has the most pristinely clean and undamaged 5-year-old laptop you’ve ever seen.)

  189. Long-term burnout*

    Very similar question toAnonymoose for Now; also inspired by yesterday’s discussion of STEM academia jobs:

    Right when I graduated from college (2016), I had to deal with a severe family health crisis that involved
    1) primary caregiving for a dying relative
    2) helping get my childhood home ready to sell to get survival money and pay off my (deceased) parents’ debt
    3) having to fill out a ton of paperwork, really quickly, while doing 2) without being able to screw up on either

    On top of this, I had to
    1) deal with depression that had been a crying for a while, and that hadn’t been helped by the aforementioned items
    2) move in with relatives to a rural area with basically no employment in the area I’m credentialed in (STEM), unless I want to move to a city that I don’t have money to move to
    3) suddenly have no friends anymore
    4) try and keep from killing myself and end up developing an Internet browsing addiction in the process

    Basically I washed out for the better part of 3 years.

    I’m working part-time now (retail) and am trying to pick up coding again (Python, although the energy I’ve had for that so far has been limited by my still-present depression). I’m in therapy again after going years without.

    Am I screwed job-wise? Life-wise? Like the person who posted above, I’m turning 30 next year. I’ve been into math/logic for a while, but I feel the Great Train of My Life has derailed and now I’ll never get back on it.

    1. irene adler*

      It feels like you’ve missed out on something essential in life because you’ve never been this old before (29).
      You haven’t missed anything. You just don’t have the perspective of someone older who has been through the ‘about to turn 30’ angst.
      Okay, so your path has been different from other people’s path. That’s not a bad thing -unless you make it so. You’ve got experiences that others your age or older have yet to deal with. So you have wisdom to offer.

      Suggestion:
      Seek out a professional organization that is in the industry you’d like to work in. Maybe even more than one professional organization. See if you like what they do for their members, what they offer to their members. If it looks good to you, get involved with them. Ask about mentoring, job tips, resume help, career path ideas or advice, educational opportunities. Given you are only part-time employed, ask if they will give you a reduced membership fee until you can find full time employment in the field. Look also for what they offer in terms of on-line interaction. Some offer group webinars, on-line education opportunities and the ability to connect with a mentor via on-line avenues.

      Then try some Meetup.com groups that pique your interest. Doesn’t have to be in a professional way. Join with others to enjoy a shared interest.

      Stick with the therapy too.

    2. WellRed*

      You’re only 29. A baby. You’re life is not screwed up. Just the fact that you are asking these questions is a great sign you’ll do what it takes to get back on track. I’m rooting for you.

    3. Fikly*

      I spent my 20’s, and the first few years of my 30’s, having surgery after surgery. I had two years of college before the mess started, and finished up the last two online after turning 30, in a not very reputable program while finishing the surgeries, just to get the piece of paper.

      It was, and is, super challenging for me to feel a decade behind my age group, so to speak. The good news is, I have been able to find a job, one that works for my current health issues, and that is a lovely supportive company. One thing I did while working back towards being able to work was volunteer. I started volunteering as a crisis counselor (via text, remote) and it was actually mentioned to me by my team’s manager as one of the key things that got them interested in me during the hiring process. The place I volunteered for only required 4 hours per week, minimum.

      It also helped me psychologically to feel like I was contributing something by helping other people in crisis, and honestly, the communication skills I learned there are super helpful.

  190. Luna*

    I was recently let go from a hotel job that I rather liked, with the explanation being that my lack of professional training in hotels ended up being a bit of a problem because the manager’s assistant left, and the manager herself felt she didn’t have the time to teach me the finer points necessary for the job in the time the contract had left, which was 7 months.
    To quickly note, before anyone gets an idea.
    1) My lack of professional training in hotels was known when I applied and interviewed, and she said it wasn’t a problem because she said the finer points could be taught to me as I work there.
    2) It’s a business hotel. Very small and with mostly regular clientele, so the finer points of even small things was more important than in a ‘casual’ hotel, if I may say it that way.

    The thing is… well, a bit of a what-if scenario question. If I see that the hotel is searching for employees again, should I apply again? I really did like the job, and I told her as much (I even said the only problem I had was that I had been scheduled to work night shifts, when I had been told upon my interview and entry that it would only happen in absolute rarity. That was the *only* problem I had.), and the finer points… I really feel I could get them very fast. I mean, I’m not unintelligent, and I am quick to pick up on things. One of the employees there had already given me a lesson on a finer detail that I had missed, so I had changed that and did it as she had told me since. (And it was the correct thing to do; the manager did say that she was one of the coworkers I could/should learn things from.)

    Maybe it’s because I am a little bitter that I was let go over something, when nobody had taken ‘the five minutes’ to sit me down and mention some of the finer points that I was apparently making mistakes on. Or maybe because I do not want to return to the unemployed jobseeking position I had been in the beginning of the year, it spiralled me into a depression. But there aren’t many hotels that are nearby where I could get a job (that was another upside to that job. It was so close, I could walk there, and I did mention that it meant I wouldn’t be reliant on public transport.) and I have limited myself to searching for a job that doesn’t require the usage of the suburban train because it’s just too unreliable to use. (I have no driver’s license or a car; public transport, sans suburban trains, is just that good here)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They seem to be having more problems than they’re letting on and trying to make it sound like they let you go for problems they could tack onto you…instead of saying you were let go because they can’t afford that shift or it could be that there’s some weird nepotism somewhere…like they let you go so that someone’s family member could have the job kind of set up.

      That’s a really weak reason to let someone go when it’s an area without other hotels, so exactly how many people are going to apply there with actual in depth experience? That’s a job you just learn on the fly, it’s rarely one you ever expect experience in.

      So instead of training you, while she was down an assistant, she let you go. Yeah that smells like a big old stinky weird situation right there, it simply doesn’t ring true. They usually keep less than stellar people on in that case because you know, filling the spot is harder when you’re already down a person who was being leaned on for training purposes.

      Did the assistant manager hire you by chance? Perhaps this is a ‘clean house of people AM hired’ move that has been known to happen but they’re giving very weak excuses to you.

      1. Luna*

        No, I was hired by the manager. The assistant manager in question actually was only a few months newer than I was.

        It probably does sound off, and I am wondering if it was just a weak excuse… and I doubt it’s a position you can’t fill easily because multiple people had gotten interviews, and many hotels are searching. So it’s technically not that difficult to find someone to fill a hotel reception position.

        1. valentine*

          It’s weird the manager didn’t wait and replace the assistant, but I understand if it’s easier to go without your position than to constantly apologize or correct for you. It sounds like there are endless variations, so no matter what you learn today, you can something new wrong tomorrow. It’s a shame they don’t value your availability/proximity or the fact you liked the job.

          You’re really boxing yourself in by wanting to work both in hotels and within walking distance. If you learn to drive or use public transport to get to a bigger hotel where they have the time and staff to train you or they are just happy to have you, wouldn’t it be worth it if you could then return to this place with those skills? (Only, did they let you go or is it a firing for cause and you are not eligible for rehire? Will she give you a good reference?) You may also be better off with the big dogs, though, in general and career-wise, though I understand if you just wanted a conveniently located, enjoyable job. One thing that would probably help you is willingness to work nights. If you really want hotels only and that’s what they need, it might be worth reevaluating.

          1. Luna*

            1) I don’t have the money to get a driver’s license. Let alone a car! And I have no *place* to park the car. Getting a car would be absolutely useless to me, it would be standing around 99% of the time because the public transport is just that much more convenient.

            2) Yes, I am getting a good reference. It was a basic letting go within the employee probation period. And I like smaller hotels because I have already worked in a ‘big dog’ hotel, and it was horrible. I liked the smaller hotel atmosphere, it felt a bit more personal, and not too stressful. And why should I go to the big dog hotels? I am not interested in forming a ‘career’ yet. I want baby steps, like managing to hold a job down for more than 6 months. I don’t mind being a small wheel.

            3) No! Absolutely not! NO NIGHT SHIFT! I worked nightshift last year, and it murdered my health; I’m *still* dealing with fixing the stuff it broke in me.

            4) I would prefer a hotel within a close enough distance so I can do early shifts there (usually from 6:30 or 7 AM onward), and not have to get up at 4 AM to make it there in time. I don’t even particularly enjoy late shifts anymore (aproxx. 15 PM until 11 PM or midnight) because it takes a lot of my day away, too, and makes planning things a lot more of a hassle.

    2. Fikly*

      Wait. You were let go from your current position because you lacked the skills for a promotion? *boggles* What does that have to do with your ability to do your former position? That’s insanity. And really poor planning by them.

      This is 100% not your fault, it is your former employer being terrible.

      1. Luna*

        What? No, a promotion wasn’t anywhere in sight. I was there for barely 3 months. (I wouldn’t even have wanted a promotion) She said I lacked the finer detail skills to work in a business hotel because I didn’t have the training people get when studying to work in hotels. And she didn’t have the time, without an assistant, to teach me those things.

        Honestly, I am probably gonna go there and ask to speak with her again; call it the conversation we should have had *before* she let me go. I am gonna bluntly tell her that I think the reason given is pretty weak, and that I feel she was hiding the real reason from me, and I want to know it.

  191. Judddddy*

    Have you ever heard of a situation where a job fell through right after an offer was presented? (I mean for a reason outside the candidate’s control like lack of funding.)

    1. Life sucks sometimes*

      Yes I have. Friend took new job on East coast, moved from West coast. He really researched the new job, housing, local economy and environment prior to accepting. Gave new company a start date a bit more than a 8 weeks from resigning old job.

      He relocated his family, put kids into school and was able to buy great new home with proceeds from sale of old home.

      Walks into new job on agreed upon date, pulled into conference room and was told new job no longer exists. They are sorry about it, said it was really a shame they didn’t figure this out sooner.

      Took my friend over a year to land new job. Burned most of their savings in the process (lucky he had a bit of cash in the bank from old home).

      He is still on the East coast.

    2. juliebulie*

      A close friend accepted a job, gave notice at her old job, and just before she was to start at the new place the job disappeared because the company didn’t get the contract they’d been staffing up for.

    3. LQ*

      Yup. A few. Lack of funding a major funder pulled a grant this person was hired under because of financial shenanigans, luckily that person was able to get her old job back, though it was a bit of a fire.

      1. Purrscilla*

        I was once relocated by a large company and then they laid me off 5 months later. I know there was at least one person who was relocated and then laid off who had been there < 3 months.

    4. Randonymous*

      I had a job offered at a fancy private school for admin function (think “their own stables”). It was pulled because their incoming numbers were not going well and they had pull teachers in to do the work instead of having a dedicated admin.

      I am still bit bummed I missed out on those horses, but the next job I was offered worked out and I’ve been at the same company for over a decade! ;-)

    5. Fikly*

      Offer in hand, start date agreed to, 2 days before I was to start, I got a call they re-org’d the departments and the position had disappeared.

  192. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    There has to be a special place in the hot-spot down under for people who don’t put their invoice numbers on their ef’ing payments. I have a couple clients who I deep sigh when I get a payment from them because it’s a game of figuring out how to apply it. Savages.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I want to fish out someone from the seas to see if they can explain themselves. HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOO AP PEOPLE OUT THERE, DO YOU DO THIS? WHY DO YOU DO THIS?!

        I had some company sign us up for ACH. Yay! But.

        But.

        Wait for it. They never sent us remittance advice. And they sent us a lump payment for like 6 invoices. And then were shocked when I called asking WTF was going on with this payment. It was across multiple accounts of theirs too. Bless. Their. Hearts. Like who doesn’t want remittance advice? How is that a thing!?

        1. Jaid*

          It’s like, well, my name and address is on the check, isn’t that enough?

          Dear G-d no. Especially if you have a common name or or foreign. 20 pages of people with the same name and that exact address ain’t there? No zip code because you’re in, say, India?

          That payment can end up anywhere.

          And the ones where the bank sends in the payment, but doesn’t identify who it’s for…

    3. LQ*

      I’ve been trying to set up a system to track all the invoice numbers for an upcoming contract. So far we are up to 15 potential numbers that could be attached to something. (Government, it’s got 3 agencies it’ll go through, plus all the rest.) Then I got an invoice that had a BRAND NEW NUMBER that doesn’t match anything. I laugh snorted out of exhaustion for a good minute.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Can I add a layer of limbo for people in accounts payable who see something missing on the invoice so they don’t pay it AND don’t tell anyone why? Not the vendor, not the person who hired the vendor….

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Those people are my actual enemy and they should never ever be in the same space as I am. They’re literally worse than anyone in the entire AP world.

  193. Overthinking office drama*

    Minor question that I’m almost definitely overthinking: should I use the same excuse as my boss to get out of planning the Christmas party?

    In my workplace, the people who were hired within the last year are supposed to plan the Christmas party. We’ve had a ton of turnover in the last year so our party planning committee is huge. My boss and I were both hired within the last year.

    When they emailed us to give us the budget, my boss pointed out that she helped plan one of our monthly events, so they said she could be exempt from helping with the party. I also helped plan one of the monthly events, so I know I could probably use the same excuse. But I’m not sure if I should. I don’t really want to plan the party, but I also have more free time in my schedule than my boss and I don’t want to seem antisocial or anything.

    A complicating factor is that apparently people have complained about our department acting like we’re separate from the rest of the office. Our work is only tangentially connected to the rest of the office, and our workspace is slightly separate from the rest of the open-plan office. We had put up a sign that said “welcome to Department” so that visitors would know where to go to find us, but our director made us take it down because apparently people complained. People also are upset that our department has two admins. The rest of the office has three admins. So I’m worried that if both my boss and I decline to participate, it’ll just compound the bad feelings. Should I suck it up and keep participating?

    1. valentine*

      Should I suck it up and keep participating?
      No. This is a petty, childish place where everyone should get a jellybean, even if they don’t want it and aren’t going to eat it. A welcome sign means, what, you don’t feel part of the larger team? Too many admins? (Or not enough?) New people have to plan parties? (Please tell me it’s not all women.) A party every month? You might want to see the letter about how party planning was a massive deal reputation-wise, but then the party people got fired. (I guess that wasn’t the place to be.)

      Say you got to plan something else and want everyone to get the chance without there being too many cooks in the kitchen.

  194. Shhhhh!*

    New name for this confession: My micromanager is always wanting me to cc: her on every little thing. I got fed up this week and bcc’d her instead. I don’t want the people I deal with to know I’m being treated this way. I tested what it looks like to be bcc’d from Outlook — I don’t think she could tell!

    WIN!!!!

    I can’t believe I’ve been reduced to this, but I take my successes where I can find them.

    1. OtterB*

      I don’t know about Outlook, but in one of my mail programs, if I “reply all” when I was originally BCC’d, it tells me that I was BCC’d and asks if I really want to reply all. So if your micromanager is just reading the emails (or just asking for them and not reading them) you’re fine, but if she jumps in, you might be outed.

    2. LQ*

      I can definitely tell in outlook. (Though I may be paying more attention than your boss.) But what kind of boss has time for that!?! (Not a good one, obv.)

  195. Vertigo*

    I’m almost positive this has been covered in a post before, but anybody have any tips for interview questions/interviewing? It’s becoming clear to me that I’ll be the person really leading the hiring for an administrative position, but I don’t actually have any experience interviewing? I just have done the job in the past and am known for having good judgement/being judgemental.

    2. TechWorker*

      Have you looked through the AAM search results already? I interviewed for the first time last year and found them really useful.

      As a general guide it’s useful to be clear about what qualities/skill/personality is needed for the role and prep questions in advance that cover those aspects. I would also print out the CV and make notes on things you want to ask them about – it helps to be clear so that during the interview you can go through methodically and be sure you’ve covered everything you wanted to. Good luck!

  196. Anon for this*

    My office is smallish (~65 people) and as we’re in a male dominated industry (and based on the demographic of the company founders no doubt) is not exactly diverse. It’s ~10% women and vast majority white. Other minorities I’d say have even less representation – though there are a few LGBT folk it’s still pretty white straight male as default.

    They’ve done quite a bit of work looking at how to hire more women, though given we tend to hire grads and promote from within it’ll be years if not decades before this filters up (I’m both the only female manager and the most junior manager – there’s not exactly any female role models above me). There has been next to nothing to do with race though – one of the directors isn’t white and there’s maybe 3-4 people elsewhere in the company who also aren’t but the numbers are so small that I guess this has got talked about less? It came up at the pub today and a BME colleague (who I used to mentor) got pretty upset at the way the conversation went (tbh, so did I, even though it obviously doesn’t affect me). I don’t know whether to a) bring this up with the directors (Clearly there is a problem and it’s causing issues) or encourage him to… on the one hand I don’t think those who fall into x minority group should have to always bear the burden of talking about it (and in this case they’re all junior/newish) but on the other hand I absolutely don’t want to speak for anyone else.

    Thoughts, along with suggestions of how to actually improve diversity in the workplace very welcome.

    1. OtterB*

      You might look at the information (book, newsletters, Twitter feed) of Better Allies. They are good at practical suggestions.

    2. Anono-me*

      I think you do have two different concerns that are both valid.

      But since you are the senior executive and someone who acts as a mentor to others; I think that puts an additional level of responsibility on you to address the issue. Before you do so, you may want to touch base with your former mentee, especially about any issues that are specific to him. But make it clear that you are planning on carrying this and are only asking if he WANTS to have input.

    3. Fikly*

      Your company will benefit from having a more diverse workforce, not just the potential employees it’s not employing. Because that diverse workforce will bring a more diverse perspective, and that benefits the company.

      So you can advocate for your company by speaking up, rather than feel like you’re speaking for someone else. Also, because you have more power and safety than the minority groups, it’s not just about burden, it’s about who is practically able to do it.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you – I totally agree. I need to work out a way to bring it up that doesn’t involve speaking over people or dropping them in it, but that’s on me!

        (Also lolled at the description of myself as a ‘senior executive’ – I am as junior as managers come and a looooong way from that :p but yes, management has some extra responsibilities!)

  197. Compari Yes*

    Does anyone else feel punched in the gut when they have to talk themselves down to get a job?

    Like, I signed a $1 million deal with a client within 6 weeks, but if I put that on my resume, people either think I’m lying or “too good” for the job I’m applying to. They just want to know if I can use Excel and how big my company was. When I changed my resume to just talk about the things I did instead of what I accomplished, I got more interviews. Le sigh.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well, I guess this depends on what level of job you’re applying for. Signing a $1M deal might be totally normal course of business in some companies and blockbuster in others. I don’t know your situation, but perhaps you need to be applying to higher level positions or larger companies?

  198. Me--Blargh!*

    Update:

    No job offers, or even emails (yet; I just applied to two more in BiggerCity on the 7th). But I’m chucking my house finally and getting out.

    Question:
    It’s been three damn years since I worked, and on the rare occasions an employer does bother to call me, I’ve been getting questions like “What have you been doing?” Usually, I say looking for work, of course, and doing some personal projects, i.e. writing a novel. When you say you’re writing a book, people perk up and go, “Oh! Okay!” like it’s a sabbatical or something. (NOPE, unemployment is NOT a sabbatical, lol!)

    Once I get to BiggerCity, I will have to say some version of this in interviews, and I need better wording. I know I’m late to the post today but does anyone have any suggestions that sound less . . . slacker-y?

    1. Weegie*

      I’ve always explained career breaks as ‘taking some time to pursue personal projects and do some volunteering’ – this is always true, and my breaks are deliberate, but there’s no reason it shouldn’t work if you’re involuntarily unemployed.

      I sometimes add something more specific: ‘I wrote a book, and I’m involved with a couple of community organisations’. No one has ever enquired further, but if you try some version of this, and if they do, you could say something like: ‘The book is a science fiction novel and I had a lot of fun writing it – my writing group is giving me feedback before I send out to publishers’; ‘I volunteer with X organisation’; or even ‘I’ve been helping elderly neighbours walk their dogs/do their garden/with household tasks’.

  199. GiraffeGal*

    I work in a marketing department on a team of 9. We’re all pretty much peers with 2 interim leads. Our manager was forced to leave in July and is now working for a competitor. Our former manager was terrible. Just a few reasons why: 1. He was basically a walking reminder of why the time’s up movement exists because of how many gross misogynist things he would say. 2. He would willingly withhold info on projects from the team so we couldn’t get things done. 3. It was evident early on he basically bamboozled his way into getting hired for this job.

    All this to say, it was mostly welcome when he was finally forced out. (One person in our department didn’t really work with him that closely liked him more than the rest of us.)

    Apparently, he thinks we’re all still friends because he randomly group texts or individually texts us about once a week or so. A couple weeks ago it was to ask a question about a brand that we used to have. Today he texted one of my coworkers about having a good day. It always has the appearance of being nice, but we all eventually figured out by working with him that he was a narcissist at best and often a pathological liar. For the most part, most of us aren’t responded.

    How do we get this person to leave us alone and move on? He’s not getting the hint.

    1. London Calling*

      Don’t acknowledge and block. If he’s a narcissist them replying is providing him with fuel.

      1. GiraffeGal*

        That’s what most of us have done. There are a few that are infallibly polite and have responded. I’m worried that’s what is driving him to keep reaching out.

    2. gyrfalcon*

      Don’t know if you’ll see this, but: can you block him on your phone? For email, set up a rule that automatically deletes his emails.

      1. GiraffeGal*

        Yes, a couple of us have done that already. I think others are afraid of burning a bridge (even though he isn’t a bridge worth keeping imo).

        Former manager is exhibiting some of the most bizarre behavior I’ve ever seen.

        1. valentine*

          If it’s not worth reporting to your current manager or HR, I’d leave the responders to it and not talk about this guy anymore.

  200. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Seems like my phone ate my post so this is not as well explained as I would have liked..
    I missed setting up a phone call with a recruiter because project chaos broke out at work, commute had construction delays, and I was wiped even before getting home to family issues.
    That’s typical, so it’s a big reason I’m starting the job search. It’s worth saying that when I email tomorrow, right? Here’s hoping that someone makes it this far down the forum tonight. I’ve never worked with a recruiter so I’m antsy.

    1. Sara(h)*

      I wouldn’t recommend going into a detailed explanation. When you say you “missed setting up a phone call,” I’m not clear on whether you just took longer to reply to an email about scheduling the call, or whether you actually committed to something then didn’t follow through as promised?
      Either way, I’d suggest that you apologize, explain that you had something urgent come up, that this isn’t like you, and that you’re very interested in moving forward and setting up the phone call. If you actually committed to something then didn’t follow through as promised, then you would want to apologize more profusely than if you just took longer than ideal to respond. Either way, don’t go into a detailed explanation in this case (because tbh the truth is just a combination of normal, understandable-but-not-very-compelling reasons), and don’t let it happen again with this recruiter; you want to be exceedingly responsive moving forward to demonstrate your reliability.

      1. Sara(h)*

        p.s. The work-related issues such as project chaos, commute delays, etc. shouldn’t be mentioned — this level of detail doesn’t make you a stronger candidate to a recruiter who doesn’t know you well. When asked why you’re leaving, you could frame it more as what you’re looking for in a new position, not what problems you’re having now. For example, “I’m looking for a work environment with effective leadership and project planning, so that roles and timelines are clearly defined and chaos is minimized, and I’d prefer a shorter commute as well.”

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          “effective leadership and project planning, so that roles and timelines are clearly defined”

          Oh that’s a helpful phrase thank you.

          1. Sara(h)*

            Glad it helped! I think the key is to not sound like you’re complaining about your current company, but rather to just state what you’re looking for that’s different, framed positively.

  201. Nicki Name*

    It’s very late in the day, but how about another salary success story? I’ve read a lot here about how everyone, and especially women, should be asking for more money. When I started job-hunting, I started telling recruiters an ideal minimum salary that felt ambitious to me even allowing for the fact that I was looking to move up a level. Recruiters did not bat an eye and sent me job listings that matched both my interests and salary. Now I’m in one of those jobs!

    I got my first paycheck from the new job last week. The responsible grownup part of me is saying, “Yes, that is the salary I asked for, and which I am fairly earning by being able to do this job.” Another part is still going, “wow, that is a LOT of money.” It’s about a 30% raise from my previous job.

    One thing I noticed is that it makes the tradeoffs less tradeoff-y. For instance, it’s a move up the career ladder, but I’ve got a longer commute. I weighed those against each other for a moment but then was like, “You know what? I’m going to be making enough money to put up with the inconvenience.”

  202. Clueless*

    Hey there (thanks Alison for letting us do this!)
    I’d be super grateful for any good ideas anyone has for things to do on an annual company day. Any fun teambuilding things, or formal sessions about work, or creative or innovative ways to present business news or information would be welcome.
    I work with some truly amazing people and our work has a very close and positive culture, so things which might not fly in other workplaces would be okay – people are very open to anything new and different.
    I might be posting bit late so might re-post next week.
    Thanks for reading this!

    1. Lena Clare*

      Some reflecting exercises. Have a selection of coloured paper, pens, crayons, and other crafty things like scissors, some basic soft materials, some glue or tape, etc

      – Ask them to draw a cross in the middle of a piece of paper, then a circle at the top, a square at the bottom, a triangle to the right, and a star to the left. Then go around comparing what they drew to others’ drawings. It’s interesting to see how many different variations you can get from something so simple. Promote a discussion about how people felt about it, if that’s appropriate for your workplace, why they chose that colour pen/ paper for example.

      – Pair them up and give one person in the pair a picture which the other person cannot see. Then they sit back to back and the person with the picture describes the picture to the person without the picture who has to draw it on a blank piece of paper. At the end of the exercise they compare the two pictures. This is about how well the person with the info can help the person without the info ‘see’.

      – In smaller groups, make a monster out of your professional fears and anxieties, using the craft materials.
      Feedback to the other groups why you made what you did. Team work and creativity!

      – Towards the end of the day, ask them to create something that represents what they’ve learned over the day. Could be in the form of a poem, a song, an interpretive dance, a picture, a story board etc. Then show it to the others.

      Have fun!

      1. Disco Janet*

        I think some of these really depend on your office/coworkers. I would have the urge to fake an emergency and leave if my boss wanting me to design a monster based on my work anxieties (like…this. Cheesy takes on these kind of events are my anxiety), or overanalyze how people draw the same shape in different ways (uhh…because I like this color? Not everything has to link back to mental state!)

        1. Clueless*

          Thank Lena Clare for all of this thought! These are great ideas and it’s so good of you to write them out! Disco Janet, you’re right about most places but in our workplace we love stuff like that…they’d probably name the monsters and have a monster parade! I’ll see how we go! Thank you both again, so much.

    2. LGC*

      Scanned the replies, and it seems like you’re in a…similar situation to my department. We have a fairly small staff team, and we’ve known each other for years.

      For our department day, we hired a teambuilding exercise organizer. It was cheesy, yeah, but it actually worked well because of it. We did quite a few group problem-solving exercises. And his rates weren’t too expensive, even for a non-profit. (It’s ironic that team-building exercises tend to work best with close-knit teams!)

    3. merp*

      A friend of mine told me her job had a few sessions focused on work but also some where folks with weird/interesting hobbies taught something about that! (She works at a religious university, and got to take a handbell class and loved it.) Does anyone have fun hobbies outside of work they’d want to share?

    4. OtterB*

      This would work if your group is not too large. We’ve adopted a “one slide” intro for many of our workshops (mostly for graduate students or young academics in our research field) where each speaker begins their talk with a slide about themselves and spends about 30 seconds on it. The original goal was to show students that these research luminaries also had personal lives. Pictures of kids, pets, hobbies, bucket-list vacations or hiking trips – so many things. Anyway, people like this a lot, and we’ve done it at a staff retreat, and our board meetings now sometimes start with this as well.

  203. Lena Clare*

    Just had a 3-day induction at university for my Masters! It was great but exhausting. From next week it’s one day a week, plus whatever I can fit in reading around work.
    Now back to bed for a nap…

  204. Justine*

    I work in Sales at a small company. We recently changed how Sales and Project Management are structured, and now it seems like almost all of our project managers hate the job they do, which because of the nature of our product can be very repetitive and frustrating. Sales and Project Management used to be handled by one person, now it’s separated.

    My boss, who is also the boss for the project management team, told me they will work on this problem next year… but I talked to some of the PMs and quite a few don’t want to wait until some change late next year and they are thinking about quitting. I guess I can’t change that – and I’m pretty sure my boss knows, so I don’t need to tell them.

    But it’s so frustrating that I handle a challenging customer and get a great closing, even for what I consider an interesting project, and the project manager is like “meh, okay, if NO ONE ELSE will do it and boss tells me to do it then I guess I have to :(((”. This also is beginning to affect my working relationship and even the friendship I have with them.

    I also need to meet my goals so it’s not like I can just ditch the less interesting clients. Does anyone have and advise on how I should handle this?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I hate when management institutes changes like this without soliciting input from the people who actually DO the job. Because those people probably could have come up with a structure that satisfies everyone. Ugh!

      Why are companies so short sighted?

      So, that doesn’t help your problem and you need the PMs right? All I can say is to try not to get too frustrated with the PMs and provide them with the easiest path forward for your accounts. I think you can sympathize with them, but also stress that this is work the company still needs to have done… and it is currently assigned to them, and you’ll make that as straightforward as possible (basically you’re easy to deal with).

      But your PM team really needs to be pushing back if this organization doesn’t make sense and giving manage solutions as to how it would/should work in order to make sense, not just giving up and quitting.

  205. LGC*

    So – I posted a week or two ago about an awards ceremony at a conference I was invited to. And…it went pretty well! I just went for the luncheon – there was only one panel that interested me directly, and I ended up missing it. And honestly – I kind of sold myself short, but I was already feeling a bit out of my depth.

    The only problem was…I was a bit awkward on stage (because I was not expecting to have to go on stage for the introductory speech and also I am terrible at photo ops). Somehow, I managed to come up with a decent acceptance speech as well.

    I think I might ask if I can go next year (and I won’t try to scam my way into it like the LW from a while back), though! It was a lot less intimidating than I thought it’d be.

  207. WRITEON*

    I have a friend at work, she is with all intent and purpose my bestfriend. And although I know making close friends at work isn’t real l.j y advised, our messed up pasts are similar and I honestly have never felt anyone I’ve felt so comfortable with.
    But shes getting in trouble at work. Mainly just not doing her job. And I’m getting angry at her because it’s also affecting me.
    So how can I channel my anger (normally I might get snippy or just stew in my anger) and also how can I be a good friend when she tells me “today was crappy at work” and it’s really because shes getting into trouble or people are mad because shes not doing her job.

    1. valentine*

      You gotta detach. I hope her “it’s also affecting me” means work-wise because, otherwise, you may be enmeshed. Dial back so you are work friends. Telling her work was crappy because of her will probably stop her trying to commiserate, but as a last-ditch effort, you can sit her down and say, “When you don’t put a cover on the TPS reports, Manager thinks I lost it and, when they realize you’re just not doing it and chastise you for it, you say it was a crappy day. What if you could turn this around by using covers?”

      Snippiness and stewing aren’t good approaches to conflict resolution and have no place at work, so, see how you can replace them in both work and the rest of your life.

  208. MamaSarah*

    Can I get some feedback from persons with CalPERS? I will be vested in early February. For many reasons (messy separation, bored with my current program, cost of living), I do not see myself staying on with my current employer or even living in CA after vesting. Has anyone else jumped ship at the five year mark? What were some pros and cons for you? I’m not so unhappy but I’m getting there…I’m looking at vesting as a finish line and once I cross it, I’d like to move on.

  209. Anon Librarian*

    I’m a freelance / self-employed artist. This month, I’m working with a lot of people. I have about 50 co-workers. Sometimes, I work with the public – crowds of people. It’s mostly good.

    I’ve been doing creative work my whole life and the egos still dazzle me. Most of my co-workers are more professional than that; you see bigger egos in other types of gigs. Ah, but we have one person who runs an ad for herself all day every day at a loud volume. I mean she talks loudly, at a rapid pace, about how great and successful she is. She sounds like she’s in a job interview and even then, it would be overkill. Oh, and it’s interspersed with jabs at other co-workers coupled with playing the victim. “Hillary is annoying and she gave me a funny look. It’s unethical and I don’t feel comfortable being around her.” If it was one person, sure. But a different co-worker every hour? That’s just pettiness and insecurity. I can’t help but wonder, if you’re so amazingly successful, why are you here doing an entry level gig with a long commute? Why are you not teaching or doing your six figure 9 – 5 job? Maybe because you’re not actually employed in those jobs? People amaze me. I’m keeping my distance from that one.

    Otherwise, it’s a great job. I really like most of my co-workers. For the kind of work that I do, it will be great for my resume. Working on lining up more work here in my new city. Meeting the full range of characters in the process.

    I meet a lot of people who seem to have had a lot handed to them and are doing reasonably well because of it. I don’t envy them. A lot of them are ignorant about many of the business aspects of things and lack a well developed work ethic. Life is never easy. I’m glad I’ve had to work hard, battle through a lot of adversity, and learn the business. I’m resilient because of that. I know how to make the most of the resources available to me. And I’ve been around long enough to know that bragging is for amateurs, as is treating people differently based on first impressions. So I’m getting ready to do more work today and things are looking good.

  210. Laura*

    Thank you to everyone who responded to my post about being expected to answer interview questions in Spanish for the Planned Parenthood job. Another potential deal breaker I didn’t mention previously was being asked if I could stay later than my scheduled end time of 5 pm if I am offered the position, and I am starting a post-bacc at UC Berkeley Extension to take the science pre-reqs needed to apply to medical school. I told the manager that I won’t know my schedule until November or December and Google mapped the drive times from PP Mountain View to UCBx’s Belmont campus which was about 30-60 minutes. I emailed the manager thanking her for her time and asked for clarification as to how important being bilingual was and the estimated commute times from work to class. Specifically, I told her that I would give her my schedule at least a month in advance of each trimester and if she knew that I had class, would coverage be available so I could make it to class on time.

    In the meantime, I went on Glassdoor to read interview and employee reviews about Planned Parenthood and reoccurring themes of the negative reviews centered around rude/unprofessional management and poor work-life balance (if I recall correctly, some of those poor reviews were about never leaving the shift at the scheduled end time). I understand the issue of low pay with PP being a nonprofit, and poor management seems to be a common theme among many companies. Also, for an organization like PP that has clinics in multiple cities and states, it can be hard to tease out which issues could be specific to the locations where I would work. To be clear, I am happy to stay a little later at a job every so often if I don’t have class or an important appt (i.e. doctor or therapist). However, the prospect of being asked to stay later when a manager is aware of my studies and is provided with my schedule a month or more in advance is unacceptable. The manager wrote back a few hours ago thanking me for providing the travel time, letting me know I was not selected to move forward with an in person interview and that she will reach out in the future if any opportunities that better fit my background arise. I responded thanking her for her time, acknowledged that my potential class schedule may be an issue, and will keep my eye out for future opportunities.

    BTW, UCBx Belmont is closer to my current job in Menlo Park and since I already have a reputation as a good employee at my company, I would likely have an easier time leaving early for classes if needed.

    I thought I would be disappointed about not getting an in person interview, but surprisingly I was not. Reading the Glassdoor reviews made me think I dodged a bullet. Even though I don’t love my current job, it may be worth staying through my first semester given that getting used being back in school will be a major adjustment (especially for someone who doesn’t have a science degree). I just dropped my Friday morning hours (the clinic where I work is only open Friday mornings) so perhaps having a 3 day weekend will allow me to recharge and better tolerate being at a job I don’t love.

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