open thread – October 18-19, 2019

by Alison Green on October 18, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Getting a Mentor*

    I’m having trouble structuring an email to an old boss of mine to see if she’d potentially be interested in taking on a mentorship role with me. I’m in my mid-20s and worked with this boss in college. We got along great personally and professionally and she has always given me a great reference when I applied to other jobs. I’m now working at the same university she works at, and though we’ve run into each other once, we’ve not formally gotten together and I’d like to connect with her again. I feel I’m at a place where a mentor could be beneficial for me, and my old boss is a great candidate because 1) she completed a professional degree program I am interested in; 2) she has held jobs that I want to have; and 3) she is currently in a position I would like to end up in 10-15 years. I am just struggling on how to word my email. Any advice?

    1. yeine*

      why don’t you start small? ask her to get coffee or lunch, and say something like “your professional growth is something i really admire and aspire to, and i’d love to hear more about how you got where you are.” and based on how that conversation goes, you can figure out what’s next.

    3. Crune*

      Be specific in what you’re asking for as far as time commitment. Lunch a few times a semester, a meeting every week, a one-off coffee where she gives you some career advice? If you can make it specific for her, she’s more likely to see time in her schedule for your ask.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Agree with the other commenters. Don’t approach it as “will you be my mentor?” because that sounds like a big deal. Mentorships happen organically. Invite her to coffee, if that goes well reach out periodically (every few months) with updates or more invitations to grab a cuppa.

      1. Holly*

        +10000. You don’t ask someone to be a mentor formally. You just treat them as a mentor and see how it progresses.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Annnd there is that possibility that you only need to meet with her once. She may point you in a certain direction and from there you could find more people giving you plenty of pointers. I know I have talked with people and thought I would want to go back to that person later. But later I found out that I did not need to because new people in my life were providing me with what I needed.

        2. Olive Hornby*

          Yes. OP may even slip into conversation (though probably not in this first email) something like, “I’ve always looked to you as a mentor,” which would help frame their asks as a continuation of that relationship vs. a request for a new and time-intensive one.

    5. Emilitron*

      I can see why people would suggest not to set it up as a formal mentoring relationship until you know for sure it will feel right (for your new role) and I can see why people suggest laying out exactly what you’re envisioning and asking for, and maybe this is just a professional growth and networking meeting. Personally I’d be inclined to slip the word “mentor” in, but then ask for just one meeting not to immediately define an ongoing relationship. “Hi Oldboss, it was great to run into you the other day. (complimentary sentence about her professionally) (A specific question/topic you’d like to know about, for example the degree program) I don’t know how much time you have for mentoring right now, but I’d be very interested in scheduling a [specific one-off invitation to lunch or coffee].” My thought being you can use the word mentoring to show that you are in general interested in things she can tell you, but you suggest one meetup not a “would you be my mentor” and then you ahve to explain in email what you think that would entail. Get together once, and then you can talk in person about what things might look like in the future.

      1. Filosofickle*

        I also get where both sides are coming from, but fall on the side of asking (eventually).

        I think you absolutely can and should make it explicit that you’re asking for a mentoring situation — like Crune said, you need to be clear what you’re both agreeing to and what to expect. (Google “mentoring agreement”, you’ll find lots of thoughts about what a mentor-mentee relationship is and can be.) Structure helps create a stronger, more focused relationship, and both sides should talk about what works for them. As someone who does mentoring, I do not consider myself someone’s mentor unless it’s been formally discussed.

        But it makes sense hold back on that for a bit to see how it plays out organically and if they seem open / able to spend time with you first. Avoid being pushy or naive. And remember it’s a two-way street. They can learn from you, too, so it should feel like a match all around.

        Asking someone to be your mentor is not an insignificant demand. That’s largely why it’s worth talking about. It takes the ambiguity out, taking what feels like “bugging” someone or “hitting them up for advice” and turns it into a relationship you can count on and are accountable to. Otherwise, you’re just a networking colleague. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s not mentorship.

    6. MicroManagered*

      I work for a large university and let me tell you we *love* updates from former student employees!

      Send her an email that goes like this:

      Hi Jane!

      Just thought I’d send an update since graduation. As you know, I got a job as a [Whatever] in the [Whatever] department here at [Whatever] University. I’ve been here [whatever] amount of time and am really enjoying X and Y about my job. I am thinking about applying to the [Degree] program in [timeframe] or so. I would actually love to ask some questions about the [Degree] program. Would you be willing to get together for lunch sometime in the next two weeks to talk about it with me?

      Thanks! -GettingAMentor

  2. Anonymom*

    Happy Friday, everyone! I recently learned that my team is expanding, which means I’ll have at least two direct reports for the first time. I’m really excited to grow and develop a team! Any advice for a first-time manager? Books to read, things you wish you’d known going in?

    1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

      When I was considering a management position, I read The Culture Code and found it to be very helpful.

    4. MeowYorker*

      I’ve had a couple of direct reports over the years, and my number one regret is treating my first-ever direct report more like a friend. She is still my direct report, and while she is a great worker, I have trouble managing her when she does have problems because I didn’t start out our relationship right. My organization itself is not very good with management (no formal guidance or structure in terms of feedback, reviews, raises, etc.), which doesn’t help, but I wish I’d started on friendly but more goal-oriented terms than I did. My two cents!

      2. Sleepy*

        I second this about being friends. Be friendly and kind, but keep a bit of professional distance.

        Do you have a say in hiring? If so, be wary of the instinct to hire someone because you like them. Look for someone way to assess their skills, not just how well they answer questions in an itnerview.

      3. Loubelou*

        Agreed on not being friends. I also made this mistake as a first time manager and it caught up with me when she had serious performance issues.

        It is sad, because I now have a fantastic direct report who I would love to be friends with, but I would far rather we work together well for a few years before one of us moves on. Then we can be friends! But for now, for both of our sakes, we are very friendly work-mates.

      4. Jaydee*

        I second this from the flip side. I was the first new hire of my first manager in a professional job. We are still very good friends, and there were certainly many times I appreciated that friendship in a very stressful job. But there were also times that it was hard to have the hard conversations and times I didn’t feel detached enough to act in my own interests (not pushing back on workload, mirroring some of her bad habits, not looking for new opportunities earlier). That was also an organization that had little formal training in how to manage people, no dedicated HR, no one liked or saw value in employee evaluations, and some long-standing dysfunctions (nothing egregious, but the typical things one might expect from a scrappy, medium size non-profit with most upper leadership positions being held by people who had worked there 25+ years).

    5. CM*

      I second Five Dysfunctions of a Team — also Thanks for the Feedback.

      The main thing I learned is that not everyone wants the same thing from their job or their manager. I spent a lot of time solving problems for my team in a way that I thought would please them, because it was the solution that would have pleased me in their place, and they reacted like I brought a dead mouse home. This is something I still struggle with, but I think a big part of it is listening with curiosity to understand what your team ACTUALLY thinks/wants/values and not just scanning for confirmation that they think the same way you do.

    6. Joyful Noisey*

      I had a first time manager who thought managing meant improving my work by way of only criticizing me. Trying to improve speed on tasks that were low priorities, noting when I missed calls because I away from my desk (I was in meetings), making me document in great detail non-essential functions. At the end of the year when the dept managers got together to rate those in my job function (to ensure ratings were fair) it was a huge surprise to my manager to find that I was not only competent, I was the highest performer.
      Good managers hold you accountable when need be, but they also should offer you development opportunties, skills growth, and recognition.

    8. Gaia*

      What I wish I’d have known? That it was inevitable I’d screw up. I’d handle a difficult conversation less than ideally. I’d make errors in judgement. Whatever. For some reason I thought that because I had a mentor who taught me a lot about management and because I read advice about managing, that when I became a manager I’d never make those “learning curve” errors. I did. You will. It is okay. Management is a skill that you are always learning. The fact that you’re interested in being as good as you can means you’ll be far better than many.

      1. Senior Salamander*

        Managing To Change The World by Allison!
        I’ve read it several times and it really helped me when I first started out – and is part of how I discovered this website. It’s geared towards non-profits but broadly relevant.

      2. Lavender Menace*

        Yes! It’s common to think that because you’ve spent time observing other managers and thinking really hard about what you would and wouldn’t do when you’re on the “other side,” that means you will avoid making mistakes. I think learning to forgive myself was probably the single best thing I could do as a new manager.

    9. RedinSC*

      A book I’ve found really helpful over my career is Coaching and Mentoring for Dummies. Part of the For Dummies series (and I know, that’s a little weird, but they do not think you’re a dummy) The book has really helped with a lot of the things a new manager really needs to know.

    10. Lavender Menace*

      I wish I’d known that I was going to feel terrified and unsettled for a little while, and that that’s normal, and that it would diminish over time. I’ve been a manager for 8 months now, and I’m only just beginning to feel like it fits.

  3. HBIC*

    Not really a work question but it’s the office so?

    Any tips on keeping cool? My building turned on the heat and IT GETS SO HOT IN HERE. 

    I run pretty warm. It’s 50 degrees outside and the temp goes up to 60-70 during the day and IT IS SO HOT 

    My desk fan is just blowing hot air. Our ice machine’s been broken all year. Did I mention it’s hot and miserable in here? Wearing less clothes is not an option.

    —

    1. An Elephant Never Baguettes*

      Do you have a fridge/freezer at work? During the heat wave, I used to take two small towels to work with me, wet them, wring them out so there wouldn’t be any dripping, put them in the freezer for 5ish minutes or the fridge for 20, and put them around my neck. Switch when they warm up.

      Caveat: You will have a towel around your neck. My workplace is pretty casual and also it was 40C outside and inside, so no one batted an eye, but it is not the most professional look.

      1. Approval is optional*

        If the towel is not going to fly, and you have a freezer in the office, you could try freezing little ziplock bags of water into small rectangle shapes and putting them on the ‘inside’ of your wrist (hold them on with wrist bands/bangles or the like). You might also be able to tuck one under your hair or collar for the back of your neck.
        Depending on how you go with scents and/or how your office mates go with them peppermint spray on the feet can help you feel less hot and bothered. Spraying a mist of water onto your wrists and on the back of your neck can help too.
        It was probably a ‘placebo’ but I always found gel inserts in my shoes made me feel cooler when I couldn’t take my shoes off .

        1. New Job So Much Better*

          You can buy Hot Girl’s Pearls which are necklaces that you keep in the freezer, then wear when you get really hot. Coolness lasts about 45 minutes for me. They aren’t the most fashionable jewelry, but they work.

          1. Ali A*

            I second these. Usually in hiking/sports equipment section. Let it soak in cold/cool water and wrap around your neck.

      2. SQL Coder Cat*

        Have you tried the cooling collars from the craft store? They come in a variety of colors and patterns, and they’re about an inch wide and can easily be hidden under a collared shirt.

      3. HBIC*

        No freezer :( We have a fridge but it’s filled to the brim with so much old food and junk (yes some of it is mine!) that I just don’t want to touch it. We had a small freezer that also had ice in it but the ice machine’s been broken for months.

    2. Theoneoverthere*

      Do other people complain too? I noticed when multiple would complain to maintenance they would adjust the temp. Not sure if its always been an issue, but the first few days for us with the heat on were scorching and then it seemed to adjust itself back to a sane temperature.

      1. HBIC*

        Oh yeah, a lot o people complain daily about how hot it is. We’ve gone through 2 office managers and both have said that legally the heat has to be turned on by a certain date…which I know isn’t a lie, because I lived in apartment buildings where the heat turned on in October. (I’m in NYC if it makes any difference). People have their fans but it’s just hot air at this point.

        2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

          This sounds like a steam heat sort of problem, unfortunately. We had the same issue when I lived in Boston. Steam heat has two settings, “off” and “bowels of hell hot.”

          1. Junior Assistant Peon*

            Old buildings with radiators often have windows that can open. Newer buildings, they say “oh, the windows don’t need to open because the HVAC system will take care of everything,” and this prediction often turns out to be wildly over-optimistic!

      2. HBIC*

        No ice!!! LOL. I’d have to go out 3-4 x a day to the stores around to get ice. Our fridge is cold enough to keep drinks and food but not ice I think.

        1. Parenthetically*

          You don’t need to have a constant source of ice at the office, just a big container of ice from home. Get a Yeti or Hydroflask or another double-walled cup/jar/bottle. My knock-off Hydroflask from TJ Maxx keeps ice for 24 hours and my husband’s lidded Yeti tumbler keeps it for every bit of 36 hours.

          1. Hamburke*

            I have a yeti tumbler, rtic big tumbler and Contigo bottle. They all work really well at keeping ice!

        3. JokeyJules*

          get a LARGE cup of water, fill with ice, then you’ll need to re-up around lunch. Get some fresh air and some ice and you are good to go!

          Or also, the YETI which everyone raves about and is an excellent vessel for beverage consumption

          1. JokeyJules*

            oh! this just popped into my head.

            My SO works outside all day, I went to Target or Walmart and got one of the large water jugs, super well insulated, keeps the ice frozen through most of the day. It was definitely less than $20, too.

        4. Joie De Vivre*

          Get a Yeti cup and fill it full of ice at home. It will keep your water cold for quite a while.

        5. MoopySwarpet*

          You could get a large double wall thermos and fill with ice and water in the morning then refill a smaller mug throughout the day. Even the cheaper ones tend to keep ice and water cold for most of a work day.

          Or even freeze a couple bottles of water, put in a lunch cooler, drink as they melt and/or refill. In the summer, I keep our home freezer stocked with half full liter bottles. I tip them (mostly) on their side while freezing and then fill with water when I take them out.

          The cheap insulated cooler totes will keep ice bottles icey cold for a couple days.

    4. So long and thanks for all the fish*

      God I’m jealous, they haven’t turned on the heat in my building yet and it’s 40 degrees outside. I run cold though. Maybe go outside as often as you can? Take a water break in the 50 degree weather? Bring a thermos of ice water from home?

      1. gsa*

        “ Bring a thermos of ice water from home?”

        I leave the house every morning with a half a gallon of ice water. In the summertime I filled it up twice.

        If you can make icewater a habit, you will never leave home without it.

    5. JimmyJab*

      Is there not someone to whom you can speak about the office temp? My office is in a super old building and has wildly varying temps, so the building people wind up having to adjust it for us all the time. Otherwise sit still and drink water?

    6. Jamie*

      I have a small fan under my desk which blows the cooler air up as well as a cooling towel.

      Sounds weird but it’s a thick cooling towel so after I wring it out I lay it folded so my wrists rest on it and it does help. Then when no one is looking I dab my neck and face with it.

      I also keep a spray bottle of rose water facial toner (no alcohol) and sprits my face, neck, and arms and aim the fan…the evaporation is really nice. None of these resolve the issue but can help.

      1. HBIC*

        I like the spray idea.

        I may also just get a new fan as this one is just blowing hot air and a little weak now. I bought it exactly 3 years ago so maybe it’s dying?

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Some of the thinner cooling towels look more like scarfs too, so that might be an alternative.

      3. Wolfsbane*

        Yes a bigger fan under the desk works amazingly to cool you down.

        signed – everyone in my office runs cold and they have windows so they are freezing while my cubicle is literally 80F.

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I keep a thermometer at my desk. The one on the thermostat does not record how it feels at my desk. I find it to be very helpful in lobbying for yet another trip from the HVAC guys, or whoever it is that climbs around in my ceiling.
      Slowly but surely my temps are getting better.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yes. Our engineering test labs helped get our area addressed at one point by loaning us the temperature -over-time recorder used for final validation tests. I don’t remember the temps, but it was much higher than the thermostat claimed.

      2. Dasein9*

        Yep. I have one that has a clock/calendar on it too, so when I have to show my landlord that the apartment is out of compliance, they see I’ve taken a picture of all the needed info at once.

    8. whatthemell?*

      Ugh – I run hot too and I ended up getting a cooling fan for my desk and it’s aimed directly at my head. The A/C is always going in our suite (I’m in Los Angeles) but I need the extra cool breeze. I also wear short sleeves just about daily, or if I wear a long-sleeved shirt, it’s very thin and light cotton.

      My co-worker is the opposite – she has a heater going under her desk AND wears her wool coat all day. It makes me so tired and sweaty just being in her area – the heat truly makes me want to sleep !

    9. [insert witty username here]*

      UGH that sucks. Two suggestions:

      1. Get a metal insulated cup (big – like 32 oz) and completely fill it with ice from home to take with you. It will last through the day and you can refill it with water at the office so you have ice cold water to drink
      2. Run your wrists under cold water in the bathroom for 30-60 seconds – it will cool your blood a bit at a pulse point and really help you feel cooler

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        For 1, consider putting a 3/4 full bottle in the freezer overnight and topping up with water in the morning. Solid ice is slower to melt so it will stay colder longer (you can still top up all day).

    10. Dame Judi Brunch*

      Our office’s HVAC is so messed up! I feel your pain.
      What’s worked for us is complaining as a group. They’re at least attempting to fix the issues now. I think they find it easier to dismiss one complaint from one person.
      There are cooling cloths that if you get them wet they’re supposed to cool you off. You out them on the back of your neck. They’re usually by the exercise gear at the store, I think one brand is Cool Snap.
      Good luck!

      1. HBIC*

        We’ve been complaining for years but we’re always told that nothing can be done. The office managers hate the heat too.

        I just wish that there was like a grace period where there’s NO air conditioning and NO heating. Is that too much to ask for. Sigh.

    11. Master Bean Counter*

      They make chill pads for your chair.
      I had one coworker buy one for another coworker after one threatened to have the thermostat turned down.
      That pad was a life saver in the office. I think it was bought off of QVC. But it worked like those ice packs that don’t require freezing. The hotter you get the cooler the pad gets.

    12. Paralegal Part Deux*

      I’ve put water bottles in the office freezer and blew my fan across that before. It works like a mini air conditioner. Once it thaws, I switched out for a new one and did that all day long.

    13. Jaid*

      Oh, my. I have the same situation with public transportation. I have to take off my sweater when I board the bus or train and whip out a personal fan. Totally not looking forward to actual cold weather.
      Otherwise, I have one of those jelly Beadz caps that gets soaked in water and stays cool for a while. But I have no shame at the office :-) I do find that wearing 100% cotton helps, because I find other fabric retains heat.
      Maybe bring ice from home and put a little dish in front of your fan to help cool off?

    14. Beancounter Eric*

      Get a large BubbaBottle, fill it with ice and your favorite beverage, and top off as needed during the day.

      I have a 40oz Bubba Trailblazer which, when the office temp was hitting 80 during the hottest part of summer, would still have about half the ice I started with in the morning at end of day.

    15. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They have those little mini space air conditioners you can get on Amazon! Get one of those to replace your fan with.

    16. Rebecca*

      I will never understand this. Seriously, I have coworkers who sit at their desks, with the heat on, a heater at their feet, a hoodie, etc. and complain how “chilly” they are, and it’s literally 80 degrees in our office. And all because it’s 40 degrees OUTSIDE. Honestly, I feel like I’m going to pass out from heat exhaustion. I can wear short sleeves, run my fan, but like the OP said, it just blows hot air. And these people are the first ones to turn on the central air in their homes and complain if it’s above 70 when they’re trying to sleep at night. Ugh.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Everyone runs at different temperatures. I find being cold a lot more painful than being too hot in the end.

        Hot makes me just lethargic a bit. But cold can make it hard to use my fingers or focus because my toes are gonna fall off =( So I’d rather have it roasting.

        1. Bluesboy*

          Everyone does run at different temperatures, and of course we should be understanding of that.

          But I think Rebecca is talking about those people (who I will never understand either) who want/need an exaggerated contrast from the outside temperature. So in the summer, they need the temperature below 70 or it’s too hot to sleep. But in winter, they can have the heating at 80 and complain that they’re cold. I don’t think that can be about running at different temperatures.

          To get back on topic, where I live is pretty hot and humid, and honestly I think the thing that helps the most is just drinking A LOT. Your body knows how to reduce heat, it sweats, and it can only do that with plenty of liquid.

          Also, if you do get access to something cold, put it on the places where the blood runs closest to the surface. Back of the neck, wrists etc. I’m told that cools the blood which then travels around the body. It seems to work to me.

          1. Clisby*

            Yeah, I live in coastal SC, and during the summer my home AC is set to 80 during the day, 78 at night. Between the dehumidifying effect and the > 10 degree difference between inside and outside, that’s fine. It drives me crazy to go into restaurants, public buildings, etc., where they clearly have the temp set at 70 or below, and it’s freezing!

          2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Eh. It’s still a personal temperature and comfort thing in the end.

            In the summer, my apartment gets to 75 degrees and it’s too much to deal with. So I crank the air.

            In the winter, my apartment at 75 degrees is delicious and required. So I crank the heat.

            I think in the end it’s really about the complaining being an issue, at the determent to others. Which is the uncoolest of uncools, I totally agree there. I only control the temperature around me persons, if someone said “Wow it’s hot in there” I would say “Oh shoot, yeah I’m freezing over here so I probably went out of control with the thermostat, go ahead and turn it down!”

            Thermostat wars are real for a reason. Everyone has their preference. Just like smells or tastes are different for everyone. Pesky 5 senses =(

            1. Bluesboy*

              You’re right when you say that it is about the complaining. I live through thermostat wars daily (guy runs hot and refuses to take off his jacket & tie, woman runs cold and only wears short sleeves. Fun!)

              In the end it’s just about respecting other people and finding compromises. Unfortunately it seems some people find it more complicated than that.

              1. Clever Name*

                This is what drives me nuts. My work wardrobe nearly always involves a cardigan or long-sleeved layer of some sort. I also keep a wool cardigan at my desk. If I’m too hot, I remove my cotton cardigan or layer. If I’m too cold, I put on my wool sweater. I’m also really good at adjusting my base layer to be comfortable in about any temperature. (cotton tank under a sweater for a warmer office, or a thermal long underwear layer under a sweater for a cold office)

                I have had more than 1 coworker who really preferred keeping the air temperature at 80 at all times. What made me nuts about having it that hot in the winter was that these coworkers refused to dress appropriately. They would wear thin gauzy “sweaters” or t-shirts and have rolled up pant legs and no socks. In the winter. I’d come in from the snow wearing boots and a wool sweater and they’d have the heat cranked up to 80 and be sitting there with bare arms and exposed ankles (and they’d complain to me about the cold). Ugh.

            3. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

              Often, when you feel this way about temperature (needing to feel warmer in winter than you do in summer), it’s because your skin is overcompensating for the humidity. You’d be amazed at how much keeping the humidity at around 50% helps with thermostat wars. (Some people will fret that this is bad for electronics or paper records, but I’m told it doesn’t really matter as much as you think.)

          3. Junior Assistant Peon*

            As for the contrast to the external temperature comment, I used to travel to Houston a lot on business, and every public building there is air conditioned to something like 64 when it’s 95 outside. At least in the Northeast, your body can acclimate to the weather, but in Texas, you need a jacket to go to the mall in July.

        2. Anax*

          Heat makes me incredibly dizzy and nauseous because of a medical disorder. I spent an hour or two every hot day laying on the floor, trying not to throw up. I used to run cold, but… not anymore, apparently.

          I wish there were a better way to deal with those more extreme reactions to the office temperature wars – not “just” discomfort, but discomfort strong enough that it’s almost impossible to work.

          1. WS*

            I’m the same – if it gets hot enough, I faint. My co-worker who runs cold and I swap desks so I sit right under the air conditioner in summer and she’s right under the heater in winter (and the swap desk is by the door, so she gets hot outside air coming in or I get cold outside air coming in).

      2. CheeryO*

        As one of “those people,” sorry for having a wacky internal thermometer, I guess? I need it to be under 70 for sleeping because I sleep hot. I grew up without A/C and survived, but hey, I can afford to be comfortable, so why not? I get cold sitting around the office (and no, you can’t always just throw more layers on – there’s a point where you’re just chilled and it’s uncomfortable no matter what). And I wouldn’t put too much stock in the thermostat – temperatures in most offices fluctuate depending on where you are in relation to the blowing air.

        1. Autumnheart*

          I sit right underneath one of the vents. It’s probably 10 degrees colder at my desk than it is at the next desk.

          But in all seriousness, women wear ponchos, wraps, blankets scarves, jackets, and even keep actual blankets at their desks. I’m freezing my butt off right now and I’ve got a work blanket on my shopping list for sure.

          1. Profane Pencils*

            At one of my old jobs, the head EA bought herself and me electric blankets. Like big, plush ones that could absolutely pass for a weird sweater, and they were SO WARM. it was amazing.

            Our office is dog-friendly so I just use one of the local living heating packs when I get cold. My good boy in particular is very tolerant of me shoving cold hands into his armpits.

            that was a weird sentence.

    17. Buttons*

      I often have to travel to Japan for work, my corporate offices there keep the temperature about 80F. When there I have to wear a suit, hose, sleeves, a jacket! I am usually cold, but wearing all that crammed into a conference room with 30 other people gets uncomfortable. I take cooling bandanas (google them). You soak them in water and leave them the ‘fridge, then you can put it around your neck. They don’t drip, and they won’t get your collar wet. I have found it easy enough to disguise. They are amazing. I use them when I working outside in the heat or going on a hike.

    18. SciGurl*

      Freezing my hot water bottle overnight save me during a heat wave this summer. I sat with it on my lap and it helped keep me cool for most of the day (also works for cooling your bed down at night).

    19. LilySparrow*

      I know you said wearing less clothes is not an option, but are there any options to choose more breathable and less-fitted garments (on all layers)? I live in a hot climate, and when covering up is mandatory, underwear and clothes that allow as much circulation as possible help.

    20. Rusty Shackelford*

      If the heat has to be *on*, can it at least be redirected? Can vents be closed or covered?

    21. blink14*

      Old school trick – freeze water bottles or bring in ice packs, and put them in a bowl that is high enough to reach the level of your fan, but not so high that it blocks the fan. Put the bowl in front of the fan – as the water bottles or ice packs start melting, the fan picks up the condensation and makes the air blowing towards you cooler.

      My office building’s HVAC system is awful – so many redesigns of suites, without moving the vents around. I boil in the summer and have to use a fan and a HEPA filter, and then it is so dry once the heat goes on that I have to use a humidifier, HEPA filter, and yet still sometimes my fan because the air is too hot.

    22. MsChanandlerBong*

      No advice, but I feel for you. I work from home, but if my boss ever wanted me to work in the office, there’s no way I would. The suite our company rents is in a building in which they turn off the air conditioning on weekends. My coworker regularly tells me about how he’s dripping with sweat, and my boss has mentioned wanting to stick his head in the freezer. I am extremely heat-sensitive, so there is no way in Hades I’d work there.

    23. MissDisplaced*

      My old office was always hot and stuffy. I generally did the following. I’m also in menopause so it applies there as well.

      Wear sleeveless tops w/a jacket or something you can throw on for meetings. I find if my arms stay cool, I’m cooler!

      Dress in lightweight breathable fabrics

      Steer clear of socks/boots and heavy footwear in the office

      Desk fan!

      Ice water!

      If necessary, flexible cool packs you can pull out of the freezer.

    24. ..Kat..*

      Go to amazon and search for personal air conditioner. You will find fans with a water reservoir that you can put ice water in. They come in small sizes suitable for a desk top. Bring your own ice in a Hydroflask type container.

      Also, how casual is your office dress code? Could you get away with wearing light weight, wicking sports clothes?

      Do you have your own office? If so, can you close the vents?

    25. The Other Dawn*

      I feel for you. Although I tend to run cooler these days, there’s a vent directly above my desk at the new job. I don’t feel the heat directly unless I raise my desk, and when I do, UGH it’s so hot and stuffy! I feel like the purpose of my sit/stand desk, which is to give me pain relief in my lower back, has been defeated. I’m going to see if the vent can be redirected, because it’s only October–I can’t imagine spending all winter like this!

  4. yeine*

    Hey all,

    There is a job ad for a job that i am currently not qualified for – out of the two things this job will do, i am very strong in one area of the qualifications and have essentially no experience in the other and the job description makes it clear they are both going to be important needs. It’s essentially director-level while i am manager-level. That being said, this is the job that i want to have in 2-3 years, and i’m thinking about applying for this job in hope is i get an interview just to learn what they’re looking for and how their interview process will go.

    Is this a good idea?
    Are there recommendations or suggestions on how to go about doing that? Should i just pretend i am qualified and make my way through the interview hoping (??) that they offer me the job at the end? I would probably take it if they offered it, probably — it’s a great company and a huge step up for me.

    1. juliebulie*

      If you’re grossly underqualified then don’t, but it sounds like it wouldn’t be ridiculous for you to go for it.

      Just use your cover letter to point out your strength in the first area, and to express your enthusiasm (and even the slightest relevant qualifications) for the second area.

      If they like you enough to interview you, don’t try to fake your way through the interview, because you probably won’t fool them. Even if they decide that you’re not ready for this role yet, as long as you make a good impression this could end up paying off later on.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I can’t quite tell if you’re thinking about misrepresenting your background, if you are, please reconsider as that would be a bad move.

      I say shoot your shot with your relevant work experience and see what happens. If the company is looking at someone that has both qualifications and you only possess one I would mentally prepare myself to receive a rejection notice and possibly in swift order. Try not to take it personally as you mentioned this position would be a stretch job for you.

    3. annony*

      If you really think you are not qualified for the job, don’t apply. It could make you look like you don’t understand the job you are applying for. However, if you are qualified but not necessarily their ideal candidate, go for it! I think it comes down to whether experience in that second area is necessary or nice to have.

    4. Holly*

      I would only apply if you think you could do this job and want this job right now – note that this is different if you think you match the specific qualifications. Do *you* think you are currently qualified? If so, try and get the job and take it as the learning experience you want if you don’t! What would be terrible if a) they think you have poor judgment because you definitely are not qualified, b) you don’t convey confidence in that you are qualified if you get an interview!

    5. Kiwiii*

      I think applying and representing yourself truthfully (including your enthusiasm for the position/willingness to learn the other side of it) is probably the best bet — you don’t want to get off on a weird/wrong foot by trying to impress that you’re more qualified than you are — and sometimes the “most qualified” candidate isn’t the best fit, if their personality or skills in other places aren’t a good fit. If you make it to the interview stage ask ALL the questions you can even and especially if it seems like their response matches your assessment of “maybe in like 2 years.”

      Best of luck!

      1. Kiwiii*

        Also, something to note, is that plenty of people apply to and do well in positions where they only technically match about half of the qualifications. You could be one of them!

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          My old boss used to say an ad was a wish list and employers don’t expect to get it all, so if you have at least 50% of it, it’s worth a shot.

    6. Anona*

      Apply!

      Are you a woman? There’s research that most women don’t apply unless they meet all qualifications, where men apply if they meet 60% of the qualifications. This obviously advantages men, because while not all of those men are getting these jobs, some of them definitely are!
      Harvard Business Review has an article called “Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified” that you can google.

    7. Heat's Kitchen*

      IMO, if you have more than 50% of the qualifications, and you’re that excited about it, I’d apply. But don’t look at it as “hoping I get an interview just to learn what they’re looking for” — look at it AS AN ACTUAL JOB INTERVIEW. You might get to the interview and the qualifications you do have are what they’re looking for and they’re willing to train someone on the rest of it. Don’t sell yourself short.

      But on the other side of the coin, it sounds like you’re being realistic that you might not get a call, and that’s okay too. Apply as long as you’re serious about it and aren’t too far away from being able to get it. Tailor your resume and cover letter, and do your best.

    8. Snorkmaiden*

      “ Should i just pretend i am qualified”

      No. Because when they find out you’re not, you will have torched a bridge.

    9. German Girl*

      Yeah, go for it. Just be open in the cover letter that you don’t have experience in the second area but are enthusiastic to learn. Then it’s upon them to decide if they can provide training or need someone who’s ready to hit the ground running in that second area.

  5. Middle Manager*

    A few weeks ago we did a team building activity with the leadership in my office that I really wasn’t jazzed about- two days of very physical challenges on a low and then high ropes course. I get that part of the point is to stretch yourself and that you’ll never find an activity that anyone likes. But I have a history of eating disorder and this was so body conscious that I really regret participating- balancing people on a beam (how much does everyone weigh), crawling through a huge spiderweb (who can fit through which hole), you get the idea. It was really problematic for me. And literally the day before we went we had the mandatory annual training on being inclusive to people with disabilities, which I found a little ironic since we were in the middle of a woods with no accessible trails, bathrooms, etc.

    I don’t want to be negative about it and just say, “we shouldn’t do ropes courses because they aren’t inclusive.” I’d like to approach it more positively as “here are some ideas that would be inclusive.” We do these about twice a year, since I’ve been here we’ve done a cooking class thing and escapes rooms. Any other suggestions that you’ve enjoyed that you could share with me?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        That actually sounds like a lot of fun. I did something similar recently, though it was a murder mystery scavenger hunt with a large group of young professionals from various different industries, and the museum setup was great.

        1. Anonymeece*

          That sounds awesome! Meanwhile, my (female) supervisor keeps pushing golf… on a group of introverted academic types. :/

      2. Kimmybear*

        This is a great idea when done well. I’ve seen scavenger hunts that are inclusive and those that aren’t. If it requires running, climbing trees or balancing a colleague horizontally, it’s not inclusive. :)

    2. SQL Coder Cat*

      This would be one of my nightmares. I have a bad hip as a result of a particularly bad car accident, and climbing ropes sounds like a great way to have a flare up. Activities I’ve enjoyed in the past are photo scavenger hunt (take a picture of your team with the object in question), lego build challenges (each team gets an identical bag of legos, and everyone gets challenged to build the most creative ), and putting a black piece of paper on everyone’s back, and everyone goes around and writes one thing they like about each person on their paper.

      1. Ada*

        Ooh! How about GISH (Greatest International Scavenger Hunt)? You guys can compete on an international level.

    3. Rachel in NYC*

      My office just did a Digital Storytelling Lab (ours wasn’t digital) that was really inclusive- and what was nice was that was a mix of individual and group work. It basically involved us running around a room drawing things and laughing a lot and ended with us making up crazy stories in our little groups. (The only rule was that we were supposed to try to not be in a group with people we worked with daily.)

      Last year we went to a rock climbing gym followed by shuffleboard (because we some of the same complaints- rock climbing was determined to be a little ageist.)

    4. Llama Wrangler*

      I do pottery and I know my studio does one-off groups for this kind — it’s a good “stretch” activity that also is more inclusive than more physical activities.

    5. Marissa*

      Oh I hate that they did the balancing people thing, that’s awful. If the group is large enough I’m a big fan of choices. The key I think is that you have to have someone from higher up signed up for each option early so that people who don’t pick the ropes course don’t feel like their picking the lesser, “we only did this for you” option.

      I’ve enjoyed when my company’s have done tournaments (I enjoyed bean bag toss tournament, and those silly Minute to Win It games).

      Starting with a venue that’s inclusive and accessible is really important. Even if no one on your team currently has accessibility needs, it’s a good habit to get into and also gives the corporation’s money to places that are accessible.

      1. remizidae*

        Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with a ropes course or other physical activity as long as there are other choices. I’d much prefer a physical activity over something sedentary/sitting around eating food.

    6. Lemon Squeezy*

      Our team did a sip-and-paint which was pretty fun, especially since they walk you through the painting step-by-step, and they had soda as well (I don’t drink alcohol.)

    7. OneWorkingMama*

      We do a (simple) volunteering activity as a group–we bake cookies (from mixes) at our local Ronald McDonald House, and then go out for a late lunch. We’re helping others, hanging out and chatting, and then get food; it’s one of our favorite days of the year!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I feel old. I would have all I can do not to say, “I am here to work, not play games all day.”

      Maybe you can suggest that everyone have the ability to opt out with no repercussions and no questions.
      “In light of our training about being inclusive for people with disabilities, we might want to take a look at our semi-annual team building exercises to see how well it fits with our goal of being inclusive. Some folks have hidden disabilities and we need to be mindful of them also. People should not have to explain why they cannot do a particular activity and they shouldn’t be left behind or ignored either.”

      Notice the use of “we”. Don’t say “you”. It’s “we”, as in “we should consider…”.

    9. Shift to Strategy*

      One of the best team functions, mentioned above, was cooking a meal at the Ronald McDonald House to feed the children and families staying there.

      Recently, my team volunteered at an animal shelter. We cleaned cages and disinfected sleeping beds, fed the animals, then played with them! The play is important to socialize the animals for adoptions. So many toys!

      1. German Girl*

        The animal shelter thing could be problematic or even impossible to do for people with allergies.

        But the cooking for others is a good idea imho. I think most food allergies are handled by just not eating the stuff (or if touching is problematic as well you can have someone else cut the produce you’re allergic to), which is nicely taken care of by not planning to eat the food.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          My allergies are such that I will have trouble being in the same room when someone else is cutting up or cooking my allergen, particularly if it is not well-ventilated, but that’s certainly not true for all allergies.

          There is no perfect activity, really. The best way to go is probably to rotate activities so it works well for different people each time, and to make it reasonably painless to opt out when it’s something that doesn’t work for you. (I don’t/can’t do: ropes courses, most things involving food, and super-competitive board games. I am happy to: get up on stage in front of a group of people and do a skit or song, build something for an engineering-type challenge, go camping. Other people will put each of those things in different categories, so it’s mostly about not always doing any one of them.)

          1. Observer*

            There is no perfect activity, so rotation and / or choices are a good idea. However, some activities are likely to be a problem for a really high percentage of the population. I’d say that cooking for a group like this is less likely to create problems than the activity in the OP’s post.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      “Canstruction” dot org. Join a competition, do your own internally, send the cans on to a local school doing THEIR competition or to a food bank.

    11. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’ve done the group scavenger hunt thing for team building at work and that was OK, but depending on the tasks and how large of an area you need to cover, it might not be very easy or inclusive. We were in teams and each team got a Fujifilm/Polaroid camera to take photos. We should have just used cell phone cameras or something because they malfunctioned often, the photos almost never turned out and we had a very limited number of photos.

      I think creative/thinking tasks that people could do around a table can be fun and “team build” without requiring physical activity — trivia contest, puzzle solving, use craft supplies like popsicle sticks and glue to build a contraption for an egg drop or rube-goldberg device.

    12. Joyful Noisey*

      My company did a teams event where we assembled wheelchairs that were donated to a veteran’s group.
      A treasure hunt might be fun.
      If the group is less than 15 people, Story cubes.

    13. chipMunkey*

      We used to organize volunteering at a foodbank once a year for those that wanted and were able to participate. We signed up for shifts, and would help sort cans and dry goods, check for expiry dates, etc. Maybe not great if people have food issues, but it worked for us because we welcomed anyone that wanted to join in (read – not mandatory).

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I did this recently with my mom and people from her company, and it was very rewarding, though I was very disappointed that the majority of the food we were boxing up wasn’t very healthy.

    14. Buttons*

      There are several companies that do a combination of team building while creating something for charity. We do these about once a year. Some of them have been: building wheelchairs to donate to the Veteran’s Association- everyone was in groups and you had to solve puzzles to get the next set of parts and directions for the wheelchairs, this year we built bikes to give to kids, we have done scavenger hunts to find all the items to put together backpacks filled with school supplies. We did a cooking one- we went to a local cooking school and again we had to solve puzzles/riddles/trivia questions to get ingredients to cook something, but we didn’t know what we were cooking, we would get an ingredient and a step (we ended up making lasagnas and salads, we ate one and the rest were taken to a local shelter). It was fun. You can search for “charitable team-building” or something like that to see what companies are in your area.
      I have also noticed that people complain less when the outcome is something for charity :)

      1. Anono-me*

        But are they complaining less because they really are happier to do the charity based activity or are they complaining last because they’re afraid they’ll sound like jerks if they say if complain about doing something problematic for a charity?

        For example doing a group cookout is something you can complain about if you have eating or food issues. But if you complain about cooking a meal for the homeless, you sound like a jerk. Even if about 20 things in that kitchen could kill you.

        I don’t think there is a one-size-fits-all activity. I think you have to have a variety of activities on rotation and allow people to opt out without penalty. (Although someone opts out a significant number of times, maybe ask them for suggestions to make sure that you aren’t accidentally choosing lots of things that exclude that person. )

    15. Cedarthea*

      As someone who is a low ropes and initiatives facilitator, I would like to say there are lots of us who work on making our programs more inclusive and if your org is hellbent on a facilitated experience there is a way to do it more inclusively.

      When I run the spiderweb we rarely put people through it, but rather we pass a rope back and forth to “rewire the circuit”, for the whale watch we frame it around placement and communication, and that any discussion of bodies (of any shape, size or ability) isn’t welcome because it’s not about size it’s about placement. I am nearly 300lb and I have balanced it with a 4 yo as the only other person.

      There are also all sorts of less active initiatives tasks, lots of building, communicating and coordinating that doesn’t require anything more than a room and some tables.

      Beyond that, we have done axe throwing, mini golf, escape room (everyone hated that one but me, but I’ve played a lot of video games). Most recently our team went to see a show (we are just outside Toronto) and ate at the CN tower restaurant. Hope you find something that works for your team, but there is always someone who doesn’t do well with whatever is chosen, so there is no perfect activity.

    16. Ann Perkins*

      Minor league baseball game? We had an evening where the office paid for everyone to have dinner and go to a baseball game, families included.

      1. Autumnheart*

        Baseball games are my personal idea of hell. Our department has a baseball outing every year, and every year I decline and offer to stay behind for coverage. This works out great, because I get a nice, quiet day without interruptions while earning brownie points for my “sacrifice”. The office has other fun/team-building events that I do attend, though, so I’m not the annual party pooper with my baseball hate. My office has a pretty good range of events, so even if everyone doesn’t like all of them, everyone will almost certainly like at least one of them.

        1. RussianInTexas*

          My old job did MLB gave as a company picnic. The problem is, it’s Houston in July and it’s HOT. As in “boiling humid HOT”. They had the pavilion set up with the drinks and hot dogs, but the seats were always out in the sun.
          Well, and we had a lot of foreigners, me included, who had no interest whatsoever in baseball. Plus, that was the era of The Disastros.

          1. Oof*

            They were still a fun team to watch in that era, particularly as they usually picked it up in the second half of the season. (gee thanks?) And there were some fantastic individual players. See they put you on the first base side – nope, always stick with third. And then you can heckle opposing teams! :-) (in the Astros way not the yankees version)

            1. RussianInTexas*

              One of those games was that 21 inning thing on Fourth of July. I don’t think any of my coworkers stayed.

    17. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      We did a ropes course teambuilding thing in middle school. It resulted in: me getting yelled at for dropping someone (I weighed 90 pounds, I shouldn’t have been lifting ANYONE ffs), and a bunch of girls getting their butts and boobs groped.

      I cannot fathom why anyone would think this would be anything short of a disaster for work.

      1. pretzelgirl*

        We did a Ropes Course in HS and I was terrified of heights and didn’t want to go. The point of the Ropes Course (at least this one), was that no one is left behind ever. If someone is scared or thinks they can the other team members help them. I ended up last bc I was so scared to go. NO ONE HELPED ME. I had to brought down on a ladder by the instructor. It was awful. I cried the whole bus ride home.

        1. RussianInTexas*

          I am not physical at all, and any stuff like this brings all the anxieties about being humiliated all the way back in high school for not being fit. This would be the worst.

      2. Observer*

        Well,clearly whoever set that up had no idea what they were doing. So, you can’t really judge by that. But, it still sounds like a terrible idea anyway.

    18. lz*

      We did a paint your own rustic wood thing. It was fun even for people who aren’t crafty. I made a cool box for veggies.

    19. Vicky Austin*

      I think you should speak up and say that the ropes course is not inclusive and why. Often, people don’t realize that they are not being inclusive until someone tells them so. Since accessibility is not something abled people need to think about, they sometimes inadvertently make mistakes.

      I suggest something low-key, like playing Two Truths And A Lie. It’s fun, it’s a great way to bond with people, it’s free, and it’s accessible to all.

    20. RussianInTexas*

      I will be The Grump and suggest no mandatory team building activities outside of office whatsoever. Meaning outside of work hours and the office physical walls.
      But that’s just grumpy me.

    21. Anon for today and probably tomorrow*

      My manager brought in someone to do comedy improv with us, which to my utter shock, was amazing. He didn’t tell us what he was doing ahead of time. This was probably a smart move on his part, because I think all of us would have been figuring out excuses to get out of the team building day. It actually highlighted some issues we have with communication and was helpful.

    22. Gumby*

      Saying “we shouldn’t do ropes courses because they are not inclusive” doesn’t make sense if they are inclusive for the group that you have at that point and time. The lack of accessible trails is not, in itself, lacking inclusion for a group where no one needs that kind of accommodation. Otherwise no one ever could do a ropes course because someone somewhere might not be able to participate. So coming at it from a different direction is a good call.

      Though, also, I am very sorry that you had a terrible experience and that, apparently, the whole concept of “challenge by choice” was not clearly explained and rigorously applied. I definitely would have been sitting out the balancing one because that sound hideous. I’ve done a few ropes courses in my day (worked at an internet company…) and have never seen that one.

      Those internet companies I worked at also used to do:
      cooking classes / challenges
      white water rafting
      kayaking
      sailing lessons
      bocce ball
      hikes
      bicycling
      rock climbing
      snorkeling
      scuba diving
      photo scavenger hunts
      “build a raft with these (insufficient) materials” (*every* group failed at this)
      human hamster ball-like things (zorb balls)
      inflatable obstacle course thing
      a series of team challenges that was arranged by some consulting group – each one was maybe 15 minutes and there was a variety (talk a blindfolded teammate through a maze, get team across a gap with only 3 boards that are all too short to be a bridge by themselves, etc.)
      surfing lessons
      puzzlehunt / treasure hunt patterned after “The Game” but shorter and work appropriate
      attend sporting events

      Many times multiple things were happening at the same time so the non-swimmers, for example, would not ever be in the sailing group.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        Outside of attending a sporting event (and even that depends) or a cooking class (but not challenge) none of these sound in any way fun or appealing, and some are not possible (a non-swimmer).
        Scratch that, these would not be possible: rafting, kayaking, sailing, snorkeling, scuba, rock climbing, surfing, bicycling, hikes longer than couple of easy miles, zorb ball.
        Puzzlehunts/treasure hunts/escape rooms/building stuff just plain sucks. Especially the escape room.
        Then again, I am The Grump. I HATE team building and Mandatory Fun. Can I just work, get paid, and go home?
        I am of a firm opinion that if my team is sucky by working together 8 hours a day, no team building will fix it.

      2. M*

        God, these sound awful. And I think your office should almost certainly take a step back and consider the pressures that exist for someone to be a “good team player” on team-building days and participate even when all the activities on offer are unappealing physical.

        If there’s a simple motto anyone organising team-building events should have, it’s “mandatory fun isn’t fun for most people”. Low-stakes, drop-in-drop-out activities are *always* going to beat out anything like this for a company that actually cares about being an inclusive environment, and relying on employees to tell you that you’ve overlooked their hidden disabilities/preferences is a terrible way to run a team. “Inclusive for the group you have” is unavoidably premised on a set of assumptions about your team, and sets the bar for the kind of people who are going to be willing to come and work for you in a way that selects for a monoculture. Don’t do it.

        1. Poppy the Flower*

          Yep. You can’t rely on “the team you have” because it’s not accounting for people with invisible disabilities. I could not do about 75% of the activities on Gumby’s list and most people could not tell that by observing me at work. I would and have made a bit of a stink to be able to opt out of this type of stuff* but sometimes people feel pressured into participating or are afraid that disclosing even the hint of a disability will result in discrimination from their team.

          *I was once offered the option to watch a high ropes course, all day, instead of participating so I wouldn’t feel “left out”. I said no thanks and went to the after party. Lol

          I really like the “in light of our disability training, we should be more inclusive” script above if OP doesn’t want to call attention to themselves.

          If anything just don’t make it a big deal to opt out. My last workplace had a lot of “mandatory fun”, much of which was not physical so it wasn’t a huge deal to opt out of the few things that were.

          1. Gumby*

            To be absolutely clear, all of these were optional. Most took place on the annual retreat, which was optional. All were arranged by the HR department who *asked* about preferences and abilities before assigning people to a group. It was a company of 40 – 100 people (at various times) so it is not like someone was quietly suffering unnoticed. It was also one of the most open and communicative places I have worked. Not in an oversharing way, but I felt no problem speaking directly with the CEO or the head of HR or whatever at any point.

            I know that these activities don’t work for many people. But the did work for the people we had at that time in that particular company. It seems like people are having trouble taking my word for it, but please at least try. Just because they won’t work for you or for, admittedly, many people and many companies, does not mean that they didn’t work for that company at that time. Using absolutes like you should *never* do these types of activities is ignoring that there are occasions, possibly rare – but they exist, where such activities are appropriate and are enjoyed.

            My main point was to choose activities that work for the group you have. When the group changes (like, say, there are 6 women who are all pregnant at the time of the retreat) then you make plans that accommodate the group you have at that time.

    23. Curmudgeon in California*

      The ropes/balance/crawling thing would have me going straight to HR. I’m disabled, and that is very much not accessible to me.

      Anything that relies on physical ability to participate is problematic, IMO.

  6. MOAS*

    I love my job. My coworker got a stuffed corgi for his birthday and we’re all taking turns kidnapping it. It joins the Pusheen collection.

      1. MOAS*

        He has the large plush on his desk, I have a mini one and the guy on the other side of me has a little one at his desk.

        We love our stuffed cats lol

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      The true question is, are you all leaving ransom notes every time you kidnap the plushie?

      1. Doug Judy*

        Or is it just some common bitch*?

        *referring to a a female dog, in case people don’t know the reference.

    6. EJane*

      this
      is
      amazing

      I have an aflac duck on my desk that my service dog LOSES HIS GODDAMN MIND over. It sits in a little metal pencil holder and gets passed around randomly, after someone said it looked like it was in a hot tub.

      Occasionally, someone on the far end of the office will accidentally(…?) set it off. My service dog has a very floppy face, and he’ll bolt upright out of a dead sleep with his face all mushed into a weird position.
      It’s the highlight of the week.

    7. Melissa*

      I have a stuffed hedgehog at my desk, and it’s famous. Whenever the puppet show people upstairs do Alice in Wonderland, Norman gets to go up and be in the show.

  7. OddGirlOut*

    AAM Community, I am looking for advice about how to follow up with people once they’ve agreed to help me with resume revisions and cover letter ideas.

    In the past month, I have visited the local Public Relations Society of America chapter and emailed several board members asking for their advice and feedback on my resume. I am a career changer and have about a year of PR agency experience but am not receiving any invitations to interview from my PR agency applications. Therefore, I wanted some specific feedback from people in the field.

    I have met with one of the three people I contacted, and he provided some great suggestions. The remaining two have committed via email to help but have not responded to my subsequent emails. Is there a kind way to reach out again without appearing tone deaf or pushy?

    Is there anything else you would suggest I do when contacting the PRSA leadership for advice?

    Thanks!

    1. NowWhat465*

      Honestly, I personally wouldn’t email the PRSA leaders at all. I think emailing people and getting feedback is from those is generous enough. If they don’t personally know you, and have already responded once, I think that’s a kindness in itself.

      Also in my experience, board members are terrible people to ask for feedback. Some will be great and meet with you and give you suggestions, but board members are typically people well established within their fields and have taken on the volunteer leadership position.

      Maybe ask if they have a membership chair, or a committee that helps with what you’re specifically asking for?

      My personal approach would be to find someone who’s career trajectory you admire (or find similar to your own of working in a previous industry) and ask them to coffee or lunch. It may not even be a resume/cover letter issue and you may need more experience and certifications for the roles you’re applying for.

      1. OddGirlOut*

        NowWhat465, I am emailing the local PRSA chapter leadership because they direct the area’s PR professional association of which I was once a member (employer paid for it). My goal in contacting people working directly in PR is to see if they have any suggestions on highlighting terms such as earned media, pitches, account management, product roll outs, etc.

        Several of the PRSA board members have career trajectories I admire, thus asking them to either meet or exchange information via email (per their respective preference and availability). I am not contacting random strangers via LinkedIn or a company’s website. I am seeking out professional advice from people who lead a professional association in my area.

        From where I stand, these people are likely to know what the top resume trends are for the region and be able to point me in the right direction. General resume advice just isn’t cutting it for me at this time. I need industry-specific information that’s going to help my resume stand out and attract attention from hiring managers.

    2. Holly*

      I am not in your industry, so I could be completely off base here, but it actually sounds inappropriate and out of touch for someone to reach out to board members of a professional chapter for resume advice at all! They are very generous for responding at all, and I would move on. Instead I would look up whether the society offers any specific career advising, and if not, follow suggestions Allison gives on this blog, as cover letter and resume advice are (usually) not field-specific.. Another suggestion is to call your alumni associations who could maybe connect you.

      1. OddGirlOut*

        Holly, why is off-base to contact people who lead a professional association and ask for career advice? They can refer me to upcoming programs or events, or they can ignore me.

        The other issue you address is something I’ve struggled with for months–general resume advice such as what Alison suggests is not helping my resume stand out from the pack. This is why I am seeking advice and constructive feedback from those in the know for this occupation and location.

        I am new to PR agency applications, so I honestly don’t know what keywords, phrasing and layout is going to appeal to hiring managers. Should I use a graphic resume? Should I include a link to an elaborate online portfolio? How much name dropping of clients is expected and/or permitted on a resume?

        1. Holly*

          I’m a lawyer in a major city, so there could be different cultural norms at play here, but in my local professional organization, there is someone to contact about career advice, but *not* from leadership on the board!! They are all head honchos like partners at huge law firms or vice presidents of financial institutions who do not have the time of day to deal with that kind of thing. Like if someone told me they were reaching out to the board of the Major City Bar Association, I would very much question their judgment!! If you’re in a smaller city with a more local professional organization, this could be very different.

          1. Buttons*

            I think it depends on the profession. I am on the board for the local chapter of my professional organization, and members are encouraged to contact us. I have offered up general feedback on resumes. We also have a mentoring program where people can sign up and we will help match them with a mentor.

        2. PR*

          Having your resume standout in PR isn’t about keywords, phrasing, layout or graphic resumes. You need specific achievements where you describe the successful outcomes of your work, which is the same advice AAM gives for other fields. If you have clear, specific, high quality achievements on your resume that are organized in a clear and straight forward way you will stand out.

        3. EventPlannerGal*

          I think it’s off-base to contact board members about the type of career advice it sounds like you’re asking for. More general advice about your career change into PR, maybe, but things like the layout of your resume and attractive keywords are very minor issues. I think you risk sounding as though you want people in senior leadership positions to act as your proofreaders.

          You say you do have a year of PR experience – are there any contacts you’ve made during that time in more middle-management level positions who you could reach out to? Does this society offer a career advice service or could they direct you to one that has experience with PR?

    3. Anona*

      I think you have top stop reaching out. You’ve emailed what sounds like more than once. If they wanted to, they’d have responded by now. Two emails (one initial, and one follow up) would be OK, but anything more than that is overly pushy.

      1. OddGirlOut*

        Anona, I reached out referencing the person with whom I met, the email recipient responded agreeing to help me, and now I am awaiting the information they agreed to provide. So, my question is more about how to respond about the agreement to help. If there’s a preferred soft wording to once again ask that said person get back to me as agreed.

        1. zora*

          I guess you can try writing back ONE more time. Just because someone agreed to help, doesn’t mean they definitely will. They might have intended to, or just were trying to be nice, but they are super busy leaders in their company and they might just not have the time. And repeatedly asking them to ‘do what they agreed’ is kind of pushy and tone deaf about the fact that they are busy people and this is a favor for you that they don’t get anything out of.

          I would say one month after the previous email, you can send one more email saying “Just circling back to see if you have time to send me that ____ that you mentioned last month. I understand you are probably very busy, so if you don’t have time, no worries! I appreciate your time and advice, thank you so much and take care.”
          And leave it at that. I know it’s frustrating, but you just can’t make everyone help you just because you want help, some people aren’t going to actually follow through and by being pushy about it you could actually hurt your chances for a career in this field because it makes you seem really tone deaf and inconsiderate.

        2. Diahann Carroll*

          I think what Anona is getting at here is, if the people you emailed wanted to respond after you emailed them telling them about the other member who already responded, they would have done so by now. The ones who haven’t responded are probably busy with their own stuff. I’d take the advice above to look up whether the society offers specific seminars or workshops on career advising and incorporate changes to your resume and cover letter based on the feedback you already received.

        3. Anona*

          Got it. Sorry for not reading closely! If they responded that they’re available to help, but didn’t respond when you tried to pin them down, I think you can follow up 1 more time. More than that is still overkill. They may have just gotten busy, unfortunately.
          I’d try to attend events with the organization, or other similar organizations, if you can. You may be able to make more in-person connections and get help. I’d also see if there’s a national professional organization. There may be career resources on their website, or information about events. At our national conference (which is unfortunately expensive), they typically offer a resume workshop/networking sessions.
          Good luck! Career changing can be challenging, but I found it worth it (switching from teaching little kids to higher education administration). I hope you find your place/people to help.

    4. Marissa*

      I’d let the other two go, but also send a thank you card to the one who did meet with you. Then find some networking events and conferences to get to know more people more organically. I’m not in your field, but if I only sought out Bar Association leadership for help I’d only be getting people who are very busy and who represent a tiny fraction of the people in the industry who could be helping me make connections.

      1. OddGirlOut*

        Marissa, thanks for your advice. I immediately thanked the man who met with me.

        As for seminars, there are none on resumes or professional development offered by the local PRSA chapter until 2020. I am happy to register for them, but they will not do me any good for the time being.

    5. zora*

      I am currently working in the PR field, although not a PR professional myself. And yeah, I agree that reaching out to the board members when you haven’t met them in person is … a lot. They are already busy with the responsibilities of being a board member, and that is probably the limit of the free time they have to give for now.

      Instead, I would suggest you attend some PRSA events and do some face to face networking and ask around to see if they have a specific committee for helping job searchers, or find some individuals who would be willing to help you with your resume. Also asking lots of questions just in the moment about what you can do to be a stronger candidate, without requiring the extra time commitment of sending emails back and forth.

      You want to focus on some mid-level types, who supervise and help hire. But going straight to leadership and board members is on the pushy side and might actually turn some people off, in addition to the fact that they just have less time to help at that level.

      1. OddGirlOut*

        Zora, thanks for your suggestions.

        I went for the board members because their names, employers and email addresses are listed on the PRSA website. Both members and non-members are invited to contact them for questions about the chapter and general PR stuff.

        3. Buttons*

          Yeah, that is a bit much. I am on the board for my local chapter of my professional organization, and people contact me with general information. Some people have asked me for resume advice, but only after I had met them in person. When I answered above I didn’t realize you had not met these people in person at an event.

    6. PR Girl*

      Hi! PRSA Leadership here!

      I have a few thoughts. First, I wouldn’t take the lack of communication from people who have already committed to you personally. Things change very quickly in our industry. A lot of times, I commit to something, but then I have a crisis that comes up that can derail my plans for the next month. It can be a struggle for work-life balance, so sometimes things just aren’t priorities. I wouldn’t keep following up with these people. As for specific advice on how to approach this situation in the future, it’s hard to say since I don’t know what you’re saying. But I doubt that’s why people haven’t responded to you.

      I agree though that these things are more successful though when you have an established relationship with someone. To that end though, if you’re a PRSA member (which I highly encourage if you’re not already), there are a lot of resources to help you. First, the chapter should have someone designated to work with young professionals or new professionals who are crossing over. If so, that’s the person you should talk to. It’s possible the chapter has a mentoring program, or workshops for resumes, or even an informational interview network where seasoned professionals have indicated they’re open to meeting with people like you for this purpose. The Board members aren’t the only people who can help you.

      In the meantime, I’d be happy to take a look at your stuff and share some thoughts if you think it would be helpful. I’m curious as to what the feedback was that you received.

    7. Forrest Gumption*

      Have you actually joined PRSA? Once you join, you will be better positioned to connect with members and get their advice, especially once you have gotten to know them a bit through attending events and/or volunteering on committees. Also, they will be able to tell you about opportunities in the area and can connect you to hiring managers. Almost all the PRSA members in my area have gotten jobs through their connections with each other.

    8. LilySparrow*

      This isn’t really an industry-specific thing, it’s a general etiquette thing.

      Asking someone to look over your resume and give you career advice is a personal favor. It’s on an equivalent level to asking someone to sponsor you in a charity walk, or something of that nature.

      Cold-emailing a complete stranger to ask for that level of help comes off as much too intense for a first contact. It’s overstepping.

      The website offer to ask general PR questions means just that – *general* questions, so it would be appropriate to ask something like, “Could you recommend any resources where I could learn more about career development in the PR industry?” or “any industry-specific job boards or networking groups that meet more frequently than the PRSA chapter as a whole?”

      Stuff like that. Things they could answer off the top of their heads in one reply.

      Of course, they might respond by offering to look at your resume. But you need to let them take the lead on that.

      I think it’s likely that they only agreed out of a sense of politeness, not because they were really willing to do it. And their silence now is a big hint that you should drop it.

  8. Insert Witty Name Here*

    I was at my desk working. My coworker, “Minerva”, (I’ve talked about her before) was helping my co-worker Fergus with something. Minerva said that it would take some time. Fergus jokingly said, “That’s okay. I’ll just stand here and talk to Witty.” (Note: He says the same thing to my male coworkers. It’s no big deal. He jokes and I just roll my eyes.) Minerva then goes, “Well, she’s prettier than me, so I get it.”

    I was shocked. I didn’t say anything and went to go to a meeting. I just feel weird. Besides the fact that I don’t consider myself remotely “pretty”- cute, maybe, but definitely not pretty. Personally, I’d rather be “smart” or “funny” because looks fade. I digress…

    Any thoughts? I just ignored it, is that the right thing to do?

    1. JokeyJules*

      I’d ignore it. That kind of just seems like an insecurity Minerva is projecting on you. Just maintain your professional demeanor and don’t internalize it.

    2. ThatMarketingChick*

      I’d say the time to address it directly has passed. But, if it happens again, I’d give Minerva a confused look and say something like “I’m not sure why my looks have anything to do with this.” And then go back to doing whatever you were before the comment. Without knowing Minerva, it’s hard to tell if it was snarky, self-deprecating, or just her odd sense of humor.

    3. Sloan Kittering*

      Perhaps Minerva had an awkward moment – I might let it go once, but at any sign she was going to continue to do this, I’d address it directly with her. “Minerva, it undermines me at work when you talk about my appearance. Please stop doing that.”

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      It can be hard to call out *ist crap in the moment, especially if you are surprised, so ‘ignore it’ is a totally understandable response. That one is also not so obvious that you could / should go back after and address it.

      If it happens again or is mentioned again, you can have a script prepared, like ‘I hope we’re judged on brains here, not beauty’, pushing back gently / as a joke. I’m not good with jokes, so there’s probably better scripts out there. One time, not a big deal, but as a young woman, you *really* do not want to become known as ‘the pretty one.’

    5. Holly*

      Yes, it’s just something trivially inappropriate/an awkward moment and I’d just move on. I think you’re overthinking it because it triggered something you happen to be insecure about or not entirely comfortable with. Feel free to use that as information – and at the risk of overstepping, maybe it’s something you may want to bring up with a therapist if you want to explore your reaction to that situation a bit more – but it’s not worth bringing up again in the workplace.

    6. WellRed*

      I feel like you keep posting variations of this. Why are you letting Minerva take up so much room in your head?

      1. Insert Witty Name Here*

        I get that not everyone will like me, but she goes out of her way to help others and shows preferential treatment towards them. She also acts engaging in front of the boss, but differently when we’re alone. It is also yet another place where this is happening- is it a coincidence? Is it me? I just don’t know how to handle it. I’m sick of putting myself down about it.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Well then stop listening to her outside of anything having to do directly with work. You already feel she doesn’t like you, so just let what she says go. Other people’s opinions of you aren’t your business.

      1. valentine*

        No. It’s Minerva sexualizing Insert Witty Name Here. It reminds me of the manager who was jealous of her employee and the commenter who’s having to sue over this kind of sexual harassment. Minerva is treating you differently based on your gender and appearance. Discuss it with your manager. And there’s no need to put yourself down. You can both report/resist Minerva’s actions and detach from thinking yourself deserving of them.

      2. gsa*

        I agree. Assume it was a compliment and move on down the road.

        If she does it again, tell her to stop!

        People make so many assumptions based on so many things…

        I’m tall 6’4”, if I remember. Growing up, everybody said: “You should play basketball.“

        Me: “Nope, I play fútbol.”

    8. Buttons*

      Are you the person who posted last week about your coworker getting jealous when the guy talks to you?

    9. Clever Name*

      I agree that the moment to address it has passed. It was a weird thing to say, and it would have been appropriate to say, “That’s a weird thing to say” and then move on. If you bring it up later you will sound oddly fixated on it….and from your post here it sounds like you are in fact oddly fixated on it. It’s okay to have a normal reaction to weird things in the moment (“huh” or “I’m not sure what you mean” or “why would you say that?” etc).

    10. CheeryO*

      Girl, these posts are all variations on the same theme. Minerva sucks, full stop. She is insecure and uses attention from younger guys at work to prop herself up. You’re young and cute, so you’re a threat. Her opinions mean less than nothing, especially since she doesn’t have any authority over you. You are doing nothing wrong, and you don’t need to do anything other than internally roll your eyes at her.

    11. Rachael*

      Without knowing the issues you have with Minerva, I can say that I’ve heard that as a phrase before….but usually from men. (a man jokes that another man wants to talk to a woman because she is “prettier” than him. Sounds gross, but it’s always been funny). Maybe she was trying to joke and it just came off wrong because she is also a female? Not sure, but I wanted to put it out there that it is a phrase that people say….granted it is less suitable for work if those you are saying it to don’t get it.

    12. Lehigh*

      So, not knowing any of the history that others are referencing, I would say that this has nothing to do with whether you are pretty or not. It’s a fairly standard joke that implies that we prefer to talk to people in order to be flirtatious. It’s not a great joke to make at work–maybe it’s not a great joke at all–but like Rachael said, it’s sort of boilerplate. I wouldn’t give it much thought. In theory, the concept that your coworker flirts at work is possibly something that deserves pushback. In practice, I can’t think of anything that’s not more awkward than the original comment (because it would be off-script for the standard interchange.)

      1. Roverandom*

        Yeah honestly in a vacuum, this situation warrants a “(awkward laugh) What a weird thing to say.” and then ignore it. Why are you sitting here trying to evaluate how “pretty” fits with your self-perception? If Minerva treats you weirdly, this is a bad example. If you’re uncomfortable around her and can’t figure out why, you’ll need more ammo because I can’t figure out what’s wrong.

  9. No Tribble At All*

    Our HR guy posted a notice in our break room –apparently we’re hiring a “non-immigrant” H1-B Visa engineer? And they’re required by law to post this to inform us? The notice includes their title, salary range, office address, and home address! Why is this a thing? Also, aren’t H1-B visas for skilled immigrants? How can we have a non-immigrant on that kind of visa, and why do they need to announce it in the town square?

    1. Panda*

      This is weird. We have tons of immigrants in our company and I’ve never seen anything like this posed.

      1. valentine*

        What about their SSN, CVV, and the year they registered their Gmail?

        Is there small print where they eschew any liability for subsequent harassment, especially at the employee’s home?

    2. CTT*

      Non-immigrant = temporary worker. I don’t know about the posting requirements, but that sounds a bit like overkill.

    3. yeine*

      I don’t know about what “non-immigrant” means, but I do know they are legally obligated to post information about the person they’re hiring, including salary rage, so everyone knows the new person isn’t being substantially underpaid in comparison to the current employees. (This just recently occured in my office.)

    4. ANon.*

      Yup, posting an LCA (Labor Condition Application) is indeed required. In fact, it should have been posted in two, visible locations.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        So, is that essentially the local person that they didn’t think was available, hence the seeking of someone under H1-B?

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Not always. I once worked with someone whose visa had to be renewed and they had to post the same thing. It included all kinds of information except her name, but I figured out who it was because we didn’t have a lot of non-Americans in the department. She was paid a lot less than I thought she was!

          It was posted in a visible yet kind of discreet place, near the coffee maker in a corner, or something. I only read it because I read everything.

          1. MsChanandlerBong*

            I think that’s what happened with a coworker of mine. She is here from China on a visa, and we had to post her job. However, no one mentioned it to me, so I didn’t know about it until I saw her job posted online. I was shocked that she was leaving. Then she explained, no, we just had to post her job so we’d be in compliance with her via requirements or something.

        2. Anona*

          It’s required any time you sponsor someone for H-1B status. You have to do it even if they’re the candidate that you want. It doesn’t matter if a local person is available or not.

    5. Wearing Many Hats*

      It’s legally required it and still weird. I always posted these by the printers that few people in my cloud-based tech company used.

    6. Cookie Monster*

      Non-Immigrant Visa is what all of the temporary work visas, including H-1Bs, are called. Really only green card processes are considered immigrant visas. The posting is called a Labor Condition Application, and the gist of why it’s required to be posted is so all the other employees know how much this individual is being paid and such, so it’s transparent about it being commensurate with others’ salaries. Companies that hire and sponsor employees for H-1Bs have to jump through a lot of hoops in order to justify hiring a foreign national over an American citizen, including this posting, which is called the Labor Condition Application. It has to be posted for a certain amount of time and that posting documented and certified and included with their application.

      1. Lucy Preston*

        Just to add another level to this…how often is it found that the salaries required to be paid are in line with what a typical American worker is actually making for that same position?
        I realize that whole point of the required salary is to make sure people aren’t trying to bring in foreign labor and then underpay them. On the other hand, at least at current company, the mandated wages are often much higher than what an average worker is being paid.

        1. Tegan*

          This was the case at my last company before current job as well – they posted H-1B notices for a couple of positions that were a small step up from mine (think Teapot Analyst I vs. Teapot Analyst II), but with salaries ~40% more than mine. I knew I was being underpaid there due to the way they treat internal promotions vs. external hires in general, but that was one of the deciding factors in me starting my job search at the time.

    7. ArtK*

      That is very strange. I work in software and have had many H1-B colleagues. I’ve never seen a notice like that.

      1. Dana B.S.*

        It must not be posted in a highly visual place as it should be. Your company’s immigration attorney would make it clear how it should be handled.

    8. Dana B.S.*

      Non-immigrant refers to someone who is coming to the US temporarily – this includes those on student visas and the H1-B (it has a 3-year limit). So the legal term “immigrant” is more precise than the term that we use casually.

    9. CAA*

      An H1-B is always a “non-immigrant” visa. This means that the person who obtains one can’t use it to settle permanently in the U.S. They are only entitled to stay here as long as they are employed. If they are laid off or quit their jobs, or if the visa validity period ends, then they are required to leave the country.

      And yes, your company is legally required to post this information. Most companies post it next to the OSHA posters, so lots of people just never notice it.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s so that people know that they’re only temporary. To make it harder to stay past the visa period.

      That’s why they’re deemed non-immigrant because they’re not staying here, they leave after the job wraps up. It’s so icky in this atmosphere we live in now, I understand why it’s upsetting to you.

    11. Anona*

      It’s a requirement from Department of Labor. It has to be posted at least 10 days. The ones I post only list salary and title, and office address. We don’t do home address.

      1. Mr. Tyzik*

        When I used to work in the office, the bulletin board was in the coffee closet. Some of those postings were months old.

    12. KarenK*

      It’s definitely a thing in medical education. We had a fellow on an H1-B visa, and we had to post a similar notice. Not sure why.

    13. Aitch Arr*

      This is a normal posting for the LCA (Labor Condition Application).

      It certainly can be awkward when it’s easy to figure out who the employee is.

    14. Lucy Preston*

      H-1Bs are for skilled non-immigrants. They’re good for 3 years with the option to renew once (possibly more if a greencard is applied for).
      Both H-1B and Green Card applications require the company to post the job notice with full details in a conspicuous place in the office.

    15. silverpie*

      This happened early in my career. If you have an H1B on staff, they have to jump through that hoop to renew his (ours was a he) visa.

  10. Green Goose*

    I’m planning to change jobs/industries soon (which is exciting but a little scary) I’ve been at my current company for five years and before that I was in graduate school. For listing managers I don’t really know what to do, I can’t list my current manager but my previous manager left the company abruptly for mental health reasons, and the manager before that was fired and I would not use as a reference. I have a few peers who I can list as recommendations but no managers, will this be a problem?

    1. CallofDewey*

      Do you have any professors you could list? Former employers from summer jobs or that sort of thing? I wouldn’t expect you to list anyone from your current company, so don’t stress it.

    2. learnedthehardway*

      Don’t list your references on your resume. You don’t even need to mention that “references are available” – it’s understood that you’ll have them.

      For applications that ask for your supervisor’s name, I would leave that area blank.

  11. Anonymous Educator*

    For years, I’d heard company X was the industry standard, but my previous workplaces couldn’t afford it.

    I’m now at a job that uses company X’s product, and it’s a horrible product… and yet is still considered THE industry standard.

    Has anyone else had an “emperor’s new clothes” moment with a reputable and widely used vendor?

    1. secret chart*

      Not specifically a vendor, but we worked with a partner that has an amazing reputation, and it was the worst partnership we ever had. I would 100% never work with them again. But they have ~~prestige~~ and ~~name-recognition~~. Yeah, well, it was a waste of time and money.

      1. CAA*

        Similarly, I worked for a company that had a customer that’s a well loved household name. Everyone who worked with this customer complained about their sense of entitlement. The attitude was “you should give us all your products and services for free because we are X and everyone loves us and wants to say we use their products”. It’s true that having a prestigious reference client is valuable for bringing in new clients who want to be like X, but when X is sucking up so much of your resources that you can’t serve the paying clients it gets to be too much.

      2. CheeryO*

        This has to be so common. I have experience working with all of the fancy consulting companies that I thought were too good for me when I was graduating college, and it turns out that most of them aren’t great.

    2. juliebulie*

      OMG, yes. “Ugh, this is the best? Really?” Like, isn’t there enough competition to force them to up their game? Apparently not… because if you are the Industry Standard, you can afford to cruise for a while.

      I always hope that when the competitors start to catch up, it will already be too late for Industry Standard to save itself, but it doesn’t work that way if Industry Standard was an expensive investment, especially if there was a lot of effort involved in getting it deployed.

      My personal strategy is to shoot for the “2nd best” product with the assumption that they won’t be as arrogant about disregarding user feedback.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I used Tableau for years and then took a job with a company using Qlikview. It’s supposed to be better with data and I figured my skills would transfer. Now that I’m at a point of using Qlik I can’t believe how limited it is. I’m questioning why anyone would use it, and I’ve honestly considered looking for a new job. What I used to do in minutes, it takes DAYS to do now. Freaking days! And the results are still ugly and not intuitive to understand for the end user. Why did anyone choose this software!?!?!

      1. Cora*

        My company uses both Tableau and Qlikview. Qlikview is complete trash – slow, not user friendly…I avoid it as much as possible.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Lol yep. Though I’m curious — how much is ADP considered the industry standard versus it just being the default?

        1. Dana B.S.*

          When I was shopping for my HRIS, every other salesperson that I spoke to would ask, “Besides ADP, who are you looking at?” And my boss compared it to IBM.

        2. RecoveringSWO*

          And they bundle their software with 401k programs that have ridiculous fees! I asked my director why we had such high fees and if we could change investment companies and his response was no because we were essentially “locked in” through the bundle promotion. Do they aspire to have the same customer satisfaction as cable/internet/phone providers???

    5. Alternative Person*

      Yes. With the Industry Standard Diploma I needed. For the Written Test part, I wanted to write in and ask them to take their own advice regarding the assessment analysis section. The rest came off in places as reinforcing the current zeitgeist vis a vis what the Ivory Tower People consider the prevailing dogma (which is prone to cycling every 5-10 years). What they put forth is very functional if you have all the resources and time to dedicate to it but doesn’t really survive contact with the realities of what goes on/what is expected in most workplaces (even the good ones).

      And wow, that sucks when the Industry perpetuates its own misery.

    6. Rachel in NYC*

      My office uses a software product that is one- if not the most common- in our field. Its horrible. Its slow. It doesn’t do half the things it’s supposed to do. We’ve talked about changed products. We seriously looked into it. The cost- not just in money but in time and energy without a guarantee that the new product would actually work the way we need it to…

      Ugh…

    7. K.H. Wolf*

      It’s not really a vendor, but using QuickBooks for the first time was a shock. It’s marketed very well, and the GUI is amazing for making non-accountants feel confident in what they are doing. However, it’s structurally very poor as an accounting software. It’s missing a lot of functionality that would be common sense to include if it had actually been designed by/for accountants (like being able to automatically apportion incoming freight costs among inventory items, for an obvious one), and it’s very inflexible for uncommon or unusual situations, which almost invariably require using a journal entry, even when the type of transaction is related to an existing function. It also has trouble dealing with fairly common things, like processing retail sales in day batches. It can be done, but QB fights all the way. I still can’t use the Return feature in a meaningful way because the person who set our batch processing up made one tiny mistake in account type, accounts can never have their types changed, and QuickBooks won’t let you override and use the ‘wrong’ type of account in the Return form. I’ve heard it started as a super-basic single-entry system, and expanded from there, which explains why it’s underlying structure is so bad, at least.

      That being said, I’m in my first job out of college. I know QuickBooks is objectively kind of bad, but I don’t know how it compares to the other accounting software available. I asked a few of my co-workers, and they’ve either used QuickBooks their whole careers, or, in the case of one, had a custom-built system that was excellent. But it’s not fair to compare an off-the-shelf program to a custom-built system.

      1. halfwolf*

        i’m not an accountant, but i use QB for a limited function (monthly credit card statements) and you are COMPLETELY right. there is no reason why this process should take me three hours, and yet it has to think for 15-30 seconds every time i record a transaction.

      2. CameTheDawn*

        As someone who has worked with many different forms of accounting software over the decades, QB is pretty damn bad. Yes, it’s very easy to use in the sense that someone with no accounting background can use. And, yes, anyone with an accounting background will prefer to bury it at a crossroads at midnight with a stake through its script error than actually use it.

        1. JeanB in NC*

          I have told a number of people with small businesses to use Quicken, not Quickbooks. I hate it so much. One of the problems is if your client has made some kind of mistake, it can be near impossible to fix it b/c the software won’t let you do what you need to do.

      3. emmelemm*

        Honestly, I work on (as in software developer) a niche software application that is sort of like that: it started (20 years ago) as something really basic, that it did really well. Now it tries to do a whole lot of things, some of them decently well, others not very well at all in my opinion. And a lot of it goes back to underlying structure: it’s like a Jenga tower hovering on a single block at the base.

      4. JeanB in NC*

        Yeah, I hate QB so much. I was having trouble seeing why certain entries didn’t show up in the customer’s account, and found that if the A/R account isn’t the top line of the entry, it doesn’t show up in the customer’s account! Why would you make such a weird thing that is not anywhere near intuitive? This is just one of many problems I have, but my school has changed accounting software 3 times in the past 5 years, and I’m not making another change for several years at least.

        1. Dancing Otter*

          Someone, in the mists of time past, thought, “Debits first, so debit A/R and credit Sales means A/R will always be first.” So they programmed the d-mn-d thing to ONLY look for A/R first.
          Once upon a time, I created standard journal entries for my accounting clerks to drop numbers into without having to start from scratch every time. I did NOT make those the only entries the system would accept, because I am not an idiot.
          Some of my accounting colleagues report good results with setting up QuickBooks for clients and locking it down, so any admin functions have to go through them.

      5. Hamburke*

        I don’t even have to use it (my middle, high and college kids use it for school) and they hate it! They switched from Google classroom 2 years ago and Canvas so much less functional…

    8. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Um, are you referring to Microsoft? Because there have been plenty of products that Microsoft beat out and those “losers” were actually better. Outlook has some glaring weaknesses of things that others can do, and Outlook STILL can’t do.

    9. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Ughhhhhhhhh yes. I’m an academic librarian and there are so many databases and tools that are just… bad. Bad content, bad user design, bad customer service. But they are always THE ONE to have for a particular department, and if we cut it we’d lose all trust from that department.

    10. Degen From Upcountry*

      I experienced this when I switched companies with some niche software. New Company uses what I always heard was THE BEST software, but in actuality although it does one specific thing very well, it does a lot of other things not great and is hard for supervisors to understand.

    11. ArtK*

      The better product seldom wins. Anybody remember Betamax vs VHS?

      I work in software and have worked on a number of runner-up products. It’s very, very frustrating to see someone else get ahead because they have superior marketing. I just left a company that had bought my product in order to get the customers. Their plan was to migrate our customers to their own product, but that’s gone extremely slowly because their product has lousy performance and barely half the functionality. But they managed to get capital funding where we failed.

    12. Sled dog mama*

      Yeah, I’ve encountered this in my industry. There are two companies (X and Y) that make the machines I use and 3 (X, Y and Z) that make the associated software packages to fully utilize these machines. People have varying feelings about which of the two machines to use and I think it really depends on what you are looking for (frankly I come down on the side of use X because they have a much larger network of service people and better customer service)
      For many years Z was considered to make the best software part A and Y made the best software part B, X’s offerings were clunky and not easy to use. Many places had a machine from X, part A software from Z and part B software from Y.
      X put serious effort into improving the usability of their software (both parts) and now some places are going to a single vendor environment because Y and Z have fallen behind but many places still have “the why would I change vendors because this is the best” attitude. The best 20 years ago is not necessarily the best now. It’s much like the “we’ve always done it this way” attitude.

    13. online teacher*

      I definitely feel this way about Canvas as an LMS. They really pushed how easy they were to use and how much functionality they had in terms of things like apps, but they lack a ton of really basic things that Moodle could do in terms of question architecture for quizzes (like take numerical input questions that don’t disclose how many significant figures you expect for the answer because that’s part of what you’re testing) or feature options to customize your courses to run the way you actually want them to. They’re certainly newbie friendly in the sense that most teachers can get their classes to do really basic things like have assignments in them, but when you try to customize anything so it runs the way you want to run your class it’s a nightmare.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, Canvas! That wasn’t the one I was thinking of in my original post, but I fully agree with you on that.

    14. Curmudgeon in California*

      Frequently. Very often the “industry standard” is the product with the best marketing team and the most features that appeal to management. It probably has pretty reports and slick advertising, and the decision makers never actually have to *use* the thing, just generate reports and sign checks.

  12. Anon...*

    I’m an ok writer. I wouldn’t call myself fantastic, but I’m likely one of the best in my small department. 
    This is relevant because I work in a role where email communication is very important. I would often bring draft emails to my boss, Abby, so she could review and make edits before I sent them.This was generally all fine. Abby sometimes wanted things worded in a very specific way, and though she may not write as well as me, I’ve always been able to incorporate her revisions just fine so we were both happy with the final result.
    But Abby got a job elsewhere and my new boss will be my senior coworker, Ilana. Ilana is great, but she’s a terrible writer, whose email communications always include lots of run on sentences, misplaced commas, typos – the works.
    I’m not sure how to handle this going forward. It’s already happened where I showed Ilana a draft that I wanted her thoughts on and she told me to add in a sentence at the end. The sentence was redundant and rambling. On the one hand, Ilana is my boss and if that’s how she wants me to send out emails, that’s her call. On the other hand, I don’t want this poor writing to be reflective of my writing skills to the email recipients! Lots of these emails go to important people in my organization, and I don’t want them to think I can’t write well!
    I think Ilana is a great replacement for Abby overall but part of me is dreading working with her because of this; it’s a large part of my day-to-day! Any ideas of what I can do? I’m not sure I have the type of relationship with Abby where I can tell her directly that I think some of her edits lessen the quality of writing.

    1. ThatMarketingChick*

      Without understanding if showing Abby/Ilana e-mails prior to sending is a requirement of your job, I’d suggest changing your approach. Instead of giving her the e-mail to read, ask her if there are any important points or information it needs to include. If you need her input on those few sentences, send them to her. That way, you’re getting sign-off on “her” contributions but limiting her poor grammatical influences.

      1. juliebulie*

        This is what I was going to say. Hopefully she just wanted you to make a particular point – one that she wasn’t able to express very eloquently – and would be pleased to see you add that info to the email in some form or other.

        And definitely don’t ask her to review your emails if she doesn’t want to. A lot of managers would just as soon not have to do that.

      1. Anon...*

        It’s not every email – or even close to that!

        Abby was very particular about the wording we used when we sent emails to certain people or about certain things (for good reason – it’s not like we’re spouting legal advice, but our messages do matter in a similar way where we often need to be careful with what we’re saying). I got in the habit of showing emails to Abby for her approval before sending them off when I knew it was something she’d care about.

        So, I’m now doing the same thing with Ilana. It’s also a way of keeping Ilana in the loop (i.e. “Here’s this situation that came up. See my draft on how I plan on handling it and let me know your thoughts/if I should handle differently.”)

        1. lulu*

          Unless you get something valuable from Ilana proofreading your emails, I would stop doing that. That’s inviting micro-management where there does not need to be. You can clear with her that you’re going to stop doing that if you think that it’s likely to create a problem. Or you can have her clear the key message that you need to include in your emails verbally, but not review the text of your email.

          1. valentine*

            I’m now doing the same thing with Ilana. It’s also a way of keeping Ilana in the loop
            Even if Ilana knows Abby had you doing this (or you volunteered after several post-send critiques and Abby didn’t stop you), Ilana may think Abby didn’t trust you or that you’re insecure. She may also feel obliged to add something because “There’s always room for improvement.” You can update Ilana when she asks or just send her a weekly list of stuff you’ve taken care of. Most people don’t want or need to know the details and handling it on your own is part of your value.

            1. Anon...*

              I’m being intentionally vague about the nature of my job, but having my boss review sensitive emails before they are sent out is a good, worthwhile, and 100% necessary practice. You’re just gonna have to trust me on this one!

              …Which is why it makes this all that much harder! I’d love to be able to tell Ilana, “I’m going to email Matt Bevers to let him know XYZ” and then word the actual email however I see fit, but the reality is it’s important for Ilana to see the email itself. (Also, it’s INFINITELY easier to email Ilana a draft email to Bevers than to call her and verbally tell her what I’m going to email to Bevers.)

        2. Diahann Carroll*

          Yeah, I would stop showing Abby the emails altogether. She doesn’t need to edit them if you’re the one who’s responsible for sending out the info. You can still ask her if there’s anything in particular she wants you to mention in these emails, but otherwise, leave her out of the loop since her poor writing will do more harm than good.

      2. Elemeno P.*

        This- I only ask my boss to go over emails if it’s an especially touchy subject and I’m nervous about my own wording.

    3. Ra94*

      I’ll be reading the advice you get, because I’m in the exact same boat (except my Ilana will stand over my shoulder, dictating word-for-word for hours, and reading to make sure I’m typing the mistake-riddled sentences exactly.)

    4. MD*

      I don’t have to run my communications by my boss, but I am an editor. I completely understand why you wouldn’t want someone else’s words in your mouth. Since rewording/reworking other people’s writing is my job, I tend to first correct and then explain. I also always try to discover the heart of what the person is trying to convey before rewriting or deleting, so I can then say something along the lines of, “I moved your added sentence on llama grooming to the second paragraph for clarity” or “I removed the sentence at the end, since we say something similar further up; but I added emphasis to the original statement, as it is clearly an important message.”

      Most people balk at being told they’re writing is poor (or having everything they added deleted), but most people appreciate seeing that you took their suggestions and made them readable.

    5. Gwen*

      I get a lot of non-grammatical “edits” from my manager – in my situation I’m lucky that she recognizes she’s not a great writer, so I’ll usually take her thoughts, rewrite them into something I feel comfortable with, and then send it back to her with a quick “made some tweaks to your updates, good to go?” Personally, I always take anyone’s edits/feedback as suggestions that I can use to rework the content my way – that said, writing IS my job so it’s accepted in the office that I’ll have to final say on phrasing if not content.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      You can also show her that you can compact things without losing the message.

      You could say, “I understood you because I am talking to you in person. But you know how things sound differently in email with no tone of voice or voice inflection? Why don’t we try ABC [shorter, clearer thing] instead of BCA [long rambly thing], does that sound okay to you?”

      And just. keep. doing this. It’s sort of a bring-her-along-with-you-method. You show by one example after another that you have a bit of knack for saying things.
      Keep in mind she probably has new job jitters. If she is a normal boss she will be grateful for your advice. This method does take a few months. But you might hit a day where she says, “I want people to know Z, W, Y and X. Can you sort this so that it makes sense to them?” That is your shot at saying, “Okay, we can do W, X, Y and Z. That will help people follow along.”
      The key point is to make sure you are getting the gist of her message and your version is less ambiguous, shorter, etc. When she sees that you have conveyed exactly what she wants she might just go with what you reworded.

    8. smoke tree*

      If these are your own emails, I think you can probably just ask Ilana if she minds if you tweak the wording of her suggestions to make them sound more like your typical writing style. I doubt she cares much about the exact phrasing, just the substance.

    9. Heat's Kitchen*

      I agree with others. Stop doing this. With one caveat. Before you do this, have a conversation with Ilana that you realized this isn’t a great use of time, but is there any type of communication she does want to review? Otherwise, go into it asking for forgiveness, not approval. Change if something comes up. But stop doing this now.

      1. Anon...*

        Thanks for the advice! While it might not make a whole lot of sense in your line of work, it’s actually a really efficient practice in my particular field/department. Asking to stop the practice would come across as oddly adversarial. Worse yet, it could get me in trouble if I handled something differently than how my boss would have wanted something handled. (Again, this doesn’t make sense without the context of my particular job/department – trust me, it makes sense with the context!!)

        So running under the assumption that the general practice of having my boss review certain emails is a good one that should/will continue, are there ways to sidestep incorporating my boss’s revisions to minimize their effect on my writing quality?

        1. RecoveringSWO*

          I’m sure it’s not practical to do this often, but could you print out a copy of the email and swing by her office with it? If she’s handwriting edits, it’s likely going to be shorthand for you to interpret (style/grammar/spelling wise) and even if she’s not using shorthand, she’s less likely to add random commas. Then, you’re never deleting her words from your draft, just incorporating her edits.

          You have my sympathies, I’ve been in this position and it only went away with personnel turnover. I know printing isn’t a great solution, but it’s an option if doing something about the problem makes you feel better (I’m one of those people).

        2. Triumphant Fox*

          I would follow the above advice of asking for bullet points, issues that she wants brought up or changes to the substance of your email vs. just “edits.” I do this with my boss (not on emails – on other writing) and he knows I will wordsmith his intention to fit with my format. I’d take the substance of her change and incorporate it where you see fit. If you need to loop back, you can always say “Thank you for your input, I incorporated the concept of X from your added section into the third sentence of the second paragraph, which also deals with X.” I would probably suggest to her that you’ll incorporate her changes and ask if she wants to approve the next draft or not. If so, add a sentence about approving this new version. Once you do this a few times, you should get into a rhythm that requires less framing and more “See line 3 for your edits. Approved?”

    10. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      I like the suggestions from MD, Gwen, and Not So NewReader. A variation of those would be to try to draw her out on what the rambly addition adds in her mind. “Oh, that is an important point. We actually say that higher up; was something about the wording not clear?” And then you’re both trying to solve the same “problem,” and she has a chance to say either that she missed it the first time or that she’d prefer to say that at the end, or to reiterate it at the end… and you have a chance to offer a clearer version of the language while
      you’re talking it out in the moment.

    12. Knights who say “nee”*

      If your messages are repetitive, can you have boilerplate for some of the usually touchy parts of the messages?

  13. Strawberry Fields*

    There is a woman “Roxie” handling my coworker’s duties while she is out on sick leave. Roxie started last week when I was out of the office on business. When I returned, my coworker introduced us and I stood up to say “nice to meet you” and shake her hand, but Roxie made some comment about me not being there last week and just kept her head down. She did not shake my hand, she did not say nice to meet you, etc.

    I thought it was odd, but just continued with my work.

    Later on in a meeting, a woman from another department was there. Roxie shakes her hand, smile, and greets her! My boss was standing right there, so maybe that is why?

    I’ve never met her before, so I don’t know why she would act like this. At one point, I looked over and Roxie was glaring at me!

    I’m in a low, entry-level type position, but I still deserve to be treated with respect. I’ve had this happen before in my previous job and it still stings. I’m also the youngest person in my department and look young, but is this reason to act like this? It’s difficult not to take it personally, since she talked with the other people in my department- I’m the only one that is treated this way.

    Is it something that I’m doing? Can someone please put this into perspective?

    1. College Career Counselor*

      A couple of possibilities:
      1) Some people just will not like you, no matter what. That is largely a “them” problem. Be polite and professional and try as much as possible to let it roll off your back.
      2) Roxie is a “kiss-up, kick-down” kind of person and views you as lower on the hierarchy. You can always try to clear the air with her (“You seem to be unhappy with something I’m doing–I hope we didn’t get off on the wrong foot?”), but depending on how long she is in the department covering for your co-worker, it may be easier to let it go.

      1. Kes*

        3) Roxie is actually your SO’s ex, and she resents you
        4) Someone else badmouthed you to her
        Honestly it could be anything or nothing, and you may never know. Since you just met her, it sounds like it’s probably more of a her problem and not a you problem. The good thing is she’s only temporarily a coworker. I agree, you could try to clear the air but it may be easier to go the route of just being polite and professional and let her weird dislike roll off you

        1. Strawberry Fields*

          I thought about the badmouthing, but why would that have an impact on being introduced to me?

        2. Diahann Carroll*

          Yeah, I wouldn’t put any more thought or energy into this. She’ll be gone soon, and her weird behavior is her problem.

    2. Wearing Many Hats*

      If you are the only one she is acting this way towards and she will be covering for a while, let your manager know. Frame it non-confrontationally, more as a question like ‘I’ve noticed Roxie won’t look at me when I’m speaking to her and refusing to shake my hand. Is there anything I can to to improve this relationship?’ Alison has better language in the site I’m sure! Your boss probably hasn’t noticed.

      If she’s only going to be covering for another week, I’d let it go. Some people are negative and not worth your time.

      1. EJane*

        I agree. Alternate script: “I think Roxie and I got off on the wrong foot; I’m having some trouble communicating with her face-to-face. Have you noticed anything I can improve on, or anything that might have contributed to this?”

        I’ve also been in your shoes, in terms of struggling with being and looking young, and the weird stigma that comes with that. I reached a higher admin level much, much faster than normal due to some weird twists of fate, and for a while there I was having issues with a coworker who was a couple years older, with whom I was supposed to work closely.

        I ended up going the “kill them with kindness” route; greeted them each morning, said “have a good evening” as I left, offered to grab them coffee if I was running to Starbucks. Little things. We were never best friends, but we ended up getting along well at work, after a couple of months.

        This is all moot, though, if Roxie isn’t going to be there for very long.

    3. juliebulie*

      I’m sure it’s not anything you’re doing. At least not anything you’re doing on purpose.

      Maybe you beat Roxie at a spelling bee in third grade and she’s still nursing a grudge. Or she doesn’t like your shoes. That’s all on Roxie, not you.

      Could be something you did ten years ago to a friend of a friend of Roxie’s, or something like that, I suppose, but that seems remote. And in that case, it’s still really not about you – it’s about Roxie believing some thirdhand version of a story about you.

      If you want to, you can ask Roxie if you’ve done something to offend her. Her answer probably won’t be satisfactory, but it will at least make her aware that you’ve noticed her behavior (though it sounds like she wasn’t trying to be subtle). It is also possible that others have noticed it, too.

      Come to think of it, does she treat anyone else that way?

      Ultimately, like College Career Counselor says, this is a Roxie problem and not a Strawberry problem.

    4. Annie Moose*

      How long have you been back? If it’s only been a few days, give Roxie some time–maybe she just fumbled the initial interaction with you, maybe she wasn’t actually glaring but was just looking and didn’t realize how her expression looked, etc.

      Of course, maybe she will turn out to just be a jerk who was somehow offended because you weren’t there when she arrived. But I’d give it a couple of weeks, try to be as pleasant to Roxie as I can, to make sure one or both of us wasn’t misjudging the situation.

    5. Kiwiii*

      I do wonder if she got a poor impression of you because you were out of the office and are meant to be on the same team/a close coworker? Maybe places she’s worked previously there was a “be at work or else” viewpoint that she’s needlessly letting cloud her impression of you.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Is she a temp? It sounds like she’s a temp…

      I wonder if she’s getting all judgey because you’re youngest and have a full time gig that’s she’s jealous of? I’ve had this happen with weird temps over the years, they are only warm to people who they think can get them a permanent position but are chilly with the “ground” workers. Or in my case, one was my temporary replacement and she was just ready to snatch my job and run [which is hilarious because I found out that she lasted all of 2 weeks, she couldn’t hang. And was awful to the staff, while tried to really kiss up to the management team.]

      Sometimes people are just rude and don’t like you for their various reasons. Maybe she hates blondes. Maybe you look like her ex husbands new wife. Don’t let it get into your head too far, it’s a Roxie thing, not a you thing.

      As long as the majority of your coworkers are kind and courteous to you, that’s all that matters. Not everyone will like your face. Lots of people hate my face.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Absolutely.

        Two years ago I went thru hell with a temp like this. She was so obviously angling for my job and sucked up to my clueless, gullible boss to become the new favorite. CGB was great at outside sales but a terrible judge of people so she didn’t realize she was being worked. And she lo-o-o-oved temp so much she overlooked, oh, severe tardiness, taking overlong on short, simple assignments…and after CGS hired temp, temp treated me as if I worked for her. Nobody worked for her.

        Roxie does sound plain rude. And there is the question of what Roxie might have been told about OP/OP’s role during the time she was out.

        Not to make it a bigger case than it has to be, but it’s not a bad idea to document these incidents for just in case.

    7. pony tailed wonder*

      Maybe she realized she needed to wash her hands? Maybe she realized that she flubbed it with you and vowed to do better next time? Maybe a lot of things. But if it develops in to a pattern, talk it over with your manager.

    8. Lissa*

      Honestly it’s impossible to say without actually witnessing those conversations. Perhaps reading this from Roxie’s perspective would have you doing something you were unaware of. Maybe she heard something. Maybe she’s just decided to hate you for no reason. Maybe you look like her sister she hates. I don’t think we can tell you if it’s something you’re doing based only on a short self-assessment – I mean, maybe? I’d look at other evidence. If this is the only person who has done this at your job, then it probably isn’t you. Could be what someone else says, she likes disrespecting lower-level people. Honestly it’s trying to read tea leaves with stuff like that.

  14. Worried Colleague*

    I need help brainstorming how to navigate a situation in which my colleague/friend is in major trouble, and I don’t want to be guilty by association.

    I work somewhere with very flexible hours and a great work from home policy, so it’s not unusual for people to be out of their offices for days at a time. However, my colleague (who I consider a good enough friend that we spend time together outside of work) took advantage of this setup and went AWOL on an unapproved vacation from work for a week. I knew she was on vacation but assumed it was approved.

    She got caught and is now on a PIP. I don’t in any way condone what she did; however, I do feel very bad for the situation she put herself in. She’s taken to texting and/or complaining to me in our office for hours every day (the two of us share an office). How do I empathize with her without it appearing to other people like I think she was right? I also don’t want people thinking I’m speaking poorly about the leadership team or their decision behind our closed door.

    Another work colleague said I need to distance myself from her because the optics aren’t good, but I’m not sure how to do that when we physically share a space together and I care about her as a person. Help?!

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I think the fact that you’re friends is getting in the way here. She was clearly in the wrong and if she doesn’t like the policy, she should approach whoever makes decisions about things like this. And you should encourage her to do that. Meanwhile, you have work to do and it’s reasonable of you to tell her that you can’t do anything for her and that you need her to either talk to somebody who can or dial down the complaining a lot.

      Also: Texting and kvetching all day aren’t the point of a PIP, so it doesn’t seem like this has sunk in.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Ohh yes get away from her, because if she’s fired they may review her chats/emails to you and you may look bad, like you were in on it. She sounds like she made a very poor decision. You should probably be clear with her (in writing) that you understand the consequences are difficult but that you can’t entertain her complaints any longer – she will probably naturally stop venting to you after that. You might not maintain closeness but that sounds like it will be for the best. Don’t get tarred with that brush.

    3. Jamie*

      No one will hold it against you for sharing an office, but you do want to create distance between yourself and her actions. You can care about her as a person and discuss other things, but not be sympathetic to valid consequences of her own actions.

      One, “I know it sucks for you, but what did you expect them to do? They have to enforce policy.” and she will likely stop crying on your shoulder about this. People want sympathy and someone clearly in their corner when complaining about this kind of thing.

      If this makes her chilly toward you over all, that tells you a lot about her.

      1. Dana B.S.*

        I like that script. Depending on how she responds, I would double down with, “These policies are so generous and we all appreciate the flexibility. Abuse like that could get it taken away.” This moves the conversation away from her problem and makes it about the potential great impact.

    4. Sarah*

      I don’t think you should empathize with her since what she did was wrong. She should get in trouble for doing that. I think you could say something like I’m sorry you’re dealing with a PIP, but I don’t think it was a good idea to take a vacation without approval. Then get yourself very busy with your work. Any other discussion from her about this needs to be met with comments that you’ve got a lot of work to do and don’t want to talk about it any more. I’m sure there’s some better language in the archives about changing the subject, but I think your colleague is right in that you need to distance yourself verbally, since you can’t physically, from her.

      It also sounds like she might not be long for that place if she’s spending hours talking to you instead of actually working.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yeah, she sounds mentally checked out to me. You’d have to be completely over a place to take an unauthorized vacation for a week (!) and not think about the consequences.

    5. S-Mart*

      I don’t think you can empathize with her without tarnishing your own reputation. Seriously, what’s there to empathize with? She’s lucky to even have a job at all at this point. Most places I’ve worked would consider her to have voluntarily abandoned her job after the third day AWOL. Those that didn’t have language to that effect in their handbook would have almost certainly fired her.

      You certainly don’t have to avoid her, but anytime she complains about her situation or your leadership team you should shut it down. If it was one of my friends I’d tell them they brought it on themselves / ask them why they thought that was ever a good idea.

    6. Celeste*

      Time to have a chat that you are done hearing about this. She can tell it to someone else, she can stop talking about it, she can get mad and quit. Whatever else she wants to do is her business. But you are done with this topic. Tell her that friends should be able to tell friends when enough is enough. If she persists, it’s okay to let her know you don’t want to be involved in this problem because you’re busy with work.

      I probably would distance myself for a while socially, just to see how things go for her at work. Not everyone can make it off a PIP and be retained.

    7. Quill*

      You definitely need to not respond to her texts or complaints during work / during breaks at work. That looks like you’re in on it. In fact, probably the kindest thing to do is tell her that while you sympathize with her stress, you will talk to her about ANYTHING else work related, but not that.

      1. Annonno Today*

        I agree. You’re feeding into her need for validation (like she believes she’s being treated unfairly; she most def is not) by responding to those work-related complaints. Agree up-thread where someone said it’s time to separate yourself from this coworker. What she did was wrong and if anything, she should be on best behavior. The fact she isn’t should tell you a lot about this person’s personal ethics/credibility.

    8. T. Boone Pickens*

      I don’t think your coworker understands the gravity of the situation here and her complaining to you about it frankly should tell you that she is absolutely clueless here. I think you can make a distinction here and may need to have a tough conversation with her that you tell her that you support her as a friend and acknowledge that being put on a PIP stinks (which it does) but you point out that she was clearly in the wrong but taking unauthorized vacation. Sadly for your friend I don’t think you’ll need to worry about this for too much longer as the chances of your friend being let go are probably pretty good.

    9. LadyByTheLake*

      I don’t understand why you are empathizing with her or “feeling bad for the situation she put herself in.” Friends can say “what were you thinking?” And “Dude, that was messed up” and you can certainly agree with the employer and other co-workers that you don’t understand and don’t agree with what she did.

    10. WellRed*

      Don’t feel sorry for her. She’s lucky to have a job and (you’re lucky WFH hasn’t been rescinded for everyone.” What your so-called friend did is WAAAAY beyond the pale. Seriously. Who does this? Shut her down firmly. Do not engage. And sorry, spend less time with her outside of work.

    11. Kes*

      I get that she’s your friend but you need to shut it down when she starts complaining to you, in text or in person. If you’re seen talking to her for hours every day while she’s on a PIP and complaining about the company people will assume you agree with her and approve of her behaviour (besides which, they will wonder why you aren’t doing your job instead of gossiping for hours – I presume you’re trying to work while she’s talking to you but it will look bad from the outside)

    12. Person from the Resume*

      Another work colleague said I need to distance myself from her because the optics aren’t good, but I’m not sure how to do that when we physically share a space together and I care about her as a person.

      Do not let her complain to you in the office. Cut her off ever time she does with something like:
      “I know it sucks for you, but what did you expect them to do? They have to enforce policy.” (from Jamie)
      “You reap what you sow.”
      “You made the choice, you pay the price”

      I know they are all kind of harsh. I’m straightforward person, but mostly you need to shock her into stopping her complaining to you. You listening to her complain and not cutting her off is bad optics for you. You obviously maintaining a friendship with her is bad optics for you.

      I would not even try to avoid saying “I’m sorry.” She deserves this PIP. Are you sorry she got didn’t get away it? Are you sorry her punishment is not fun for her when she did something so very out of line?

      She made a terrible choice. She got caught and is paying the price. She’s amazingly lucky that she didn’t just get fired. And because of your friendship, your reputation at work could be damaged. So you need to make it clear to her and anyone listening that you think her decision was terrible and her PIP is utterly appropriate.

    13. CM*

      You don’t need to shun anybody. If, as you say, you think she was in the wrong but you’re sympathetic to the fact that she’s in a rough situation over it, you don’t have to pretend to think she’s not in the wrong. You can just express sympathy for the part of it that’s rough and say, “That’s rough.” Or, “I don’t want to get into badmouthing [whoever set up the PIP], but I get why you feel frustrated,” or whatever.

    14. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I think you need to stop feeling bad for her. If I’m understanding right, she said she was working from home but actually wasn’t working, for a week. That’s fraudulent. If however she was working, just from another location, but didn’t get approval to do it, then that’s still her mistake. She should have asked. Either way, she’s at fault. Her actions got her into this mess.

      As for how to distance yourself – Jamie’s wording is perfect.

    15. chipMunkey*

      I think a PIP is pretty lenient. Anywhere I’ve worked, if you are being paid to work, the company owns your time. If she was doing her own thing, that could be considered fraud – so never mind a PIP, she’s lucky she wasn’t terminated on the spot.

      1. Anon for this*

        So tell her – you can’t believe she didn’t get fired on the spot. Gee, she’s lucky she was only put on a PIP. And now you’re done with hashing and rehashing it.
        I find work friends still need to be one step removed from personal friends. But I also find I need a lot of boundaries in my life. It just works better for me that way.

    16. 1LFTW*

      “Jane, I gotta tell you – as a friend, I’m *glad* you’re on a PIP, because at most places, you’d have been fired.” If she has any sense, she’ll take this to heart. If she doesn’t, you probably won’t have to worry about distancing yourself, because she’ll get huffy and do that for you.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I actually like the script a lot – it’s the tough love kind of feedback I’m known for, lol. Jane really did bring this situation on herself, so no one should feel sorry for her. She lied and skipped town when she was supposed to be working – she committed wage theft, which is a fireable offense everywhere I’ve ever worked.

      2. Jamie*

        I like this, too. And selfishly I’d be pissed. Maybe scarred by old toxic jobs but I’ve worked for places that would look for any reason to quash WFH for anyone. They’re lucky tptb aren’t harshing down on everyone for the bad actions of one person.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      It might be helpful to think of it as this is what would happen to anyone here who did this. It’s not like she was wearing purple and the boss did not like purple that particular day. This is something that one could reasonably expect at any job, if you skip out you will get a PIP and that is IF you are lucky.

      I think I would get a very concerned look on my face, “Gee, I’d hate for anything to happen to you. They must like you otherwise or else they could have just fired you. I know of places that just fire people for this. I don’t want to see you leave.”

      So the overall idea is the company is behaving in a normal fashion. It’s reasonable to expect that employees would get in trouble over something like this. You are very glad they did not just fire her right away. And you hope everything works out for her so she can stay.

      FWIW, I have a friend who will tell me X happened, where X is so unfair etc. I use a flat or matter of fact tone of voice and I explain, well that is how Y works if you do Z then X will happen. And so X happened to you.” A part of what I do here is I lower the volume of my voice. I talk softer. I think this makes people strain to hear a little more and they are less apt to think I am “yelling” at them. (Yes, you can yell at a person and never raise your voice. Some of the worst “scaldings” I have had the person reamed me and never raised their voice. Talk softer than usual.)

      You can also say things like, “You are a pretty cool friend. So I am really hoping this lands well for you.”

      To you I will say, watch what happens next. If she continues to have difficulties, your best bet is to step back and back from the friendship at least in the office. This can look like, “When we are at work I need to just focus on work.”

    18. Worried Colleague*

      Thanks for your advice, everyone! I truly appreciate it. I’m especially thankful for the scripts you gave me. It can be very difficult to think of what to say to her in the moment.

      Admittedly, it’s very hard for me NOT to empathize. I work in a field where I’ve been conditioned to empathize with all of our constituents all of the time, even if they do something objectively off the rocker, and it’s a difficult thing to turn off. I’m an emotional dumping ground for most of my friends because I’m very good at listening without judgment – it gets exhausting!

      As crazy as this sounds, I’m not sure they’ll ever actually fire her, despite the PIP. We’re all experts in our field with terminal degrees, and it’s hard to find people with our unique combinations of skill sets and languages (hence the autonomy and great benefits – they want to retain us if at all possible because hiring is a nightmare). I think she knows this, and it’s just adding fuel to the fire in how much further she’s willing to push the situation.

      For example, She keeps talking about how she needs to be on her best behavior but didn’t come into the office until almost noon today and has texted on her phone the entire time since coming in. It’s so hard not for me to get drawn in and “mother hen” her into working!

    19. RecoveringSWO*

      I’d like to see whether other commenters think this is too much, but I would also consider mentioning to your boss that you’re concerned about the optics of this situation and don’t want her to get the impression that you think you’re colleague’s actions were acceptable. Just a quick talk to clear the air.

      If your officemate keeps up the victim act throughout her PIP, management might start digging into emails/chats or paying more attention to her rants in your office. They’ll be looking for potential justification for firing her. I’ve absolutely given the benefit of the doubt to an employee who was being overrun by a strong personality before, but the key was that I knew that employee disagreed with the bad actor beforehand.

      1. Worried Colleague*

        Yes, I’ve been wondering if I should bring it up at my next one-on-one. I’m very curious what other people think about that.

        I’m not sure how to bring it up to leadership without getting her in more trouble. For example, accidentally revealing that I know more about the situation than I should. Or getting myself in trouble by making it seem like I’ve been gossiping about things I shouldn’t know about.

        Any scripts or wording ideas?

        2. Triumphant Fox*

          “As you know, Jane and I have worked together for a long time and I do enjoy her company, but I wanted to make it clear to you that I am really shocked and disappointed in her treatment of our PTO and WFH policy. I really value those privileges and appreciate our flexibility as part of this position. I worry about the optics since Jane and I sit together and she has expressed frustration about her PIP. Do you have any advice on how to avoid the perception that we are in this together? I’ve already gotten some comments from others in department X/at level Y/area Z that my association with her doesn’t look good, but I don’t know how to mitigate it while we sit together.”

          I have found that asking for concrete advice on how to handle a situation is a much better approach than just bringing a problem up if you’re worried about optics or “tattling” (which doesn’t apply in a business context).

        3. Not So NewReader*

          “Boss, Sue and I are office mates. So we get into conversations that perhaps we would not with other people. I do know some things that have happened. I wanted to be sure that you know, that is my office mate and NOT me. My habits/method of operating are different from that and I wanted to be sure that you were aware of that.”

          Outline:
          a)Because of proximity you know about stuff you would not know otherwise.
          b)You want to make sure the boss knows you know these things are NOT cool and not anything that you are about.

          Keep it really short. If the boss wants to have a longer conversation she will.
          Prepare yourself that there is a long shot she just may move you to another office and different office mate, if she can.

        4. 1LFTW*

          If it were me, I wouldn’t bring it up unless they do, and if you aren’t supposed to know about the PIP, I doubt they’ll bring it up. But if they do, you can say that you’ve made an effort to shut down your co-workers complaints, and stress the fact that you know it’s none of your business and that you don’t want to get involved in (what I assume it’s supposed to be) confidential personnel matters.

          Best of luck with this. I know how hard it is to do that kind of empathy-switching, and your co-worker sounds like a lot of work.

        5. blaise zamboni*

          I think if you have a good relationship with your boss, it’s worth mentioning. It sounds like this has been affecting you pretty significantly, and you could use more specialized guidance from someone who knows you and your coworker better than we do.

          I would say something like, “I’m struggling with a sticky situation. You know I’m friends with Coworker, and she’s had some work troubles recently. I empathize with her and I want to support her, but I’m conflicted about her behavior and how to respond to her. Can you help me navigate [whatever your biggest concern about this is]?”

          I’m not sure from your post if your biggest concern is to maintain your relationship (both personal and professional) with your coworker, or if it’s to maintain your professional image to your leadership and the rest of your team. I think both things are really important, but I would pick the more important (to you) issue and lead with that. Then if your boss doesn’t offer guidance on the other concern, bring that up later in the conversation.

          As far as getting her in trouble…Are PIPs at your company confidential? are PIPs ever confidential? Obviously I wouldn’t want anyone to walk around announcing that I’m on a PIP, but I can’t imagine a company would care if I shared that news on my own. The worst offense your coworker has done, in the context of your dilemma, is to gripe about her bosses to a close peer. That isn’t *great* but IMO a decent boss will let that roll off her back, at least up to a point. And frankly, it sounds like your coworker is getting herself in trouble with or without your involvement–you may as well get some feedback while she’s at it.

        6. Dr. Anonymous*

          I think if you’re going to talk about it, you have to present your real dilemma. You sit with her, you like her as a person, but she’s really struggling with the PIP and can’t stop talking about it and it’s a distraction, and also you’re worried people will see you as two peas in a pod. You want to keep the focus on work and still be respectful and empathetic.

    20. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Your colleague gave you good advice. It’s tough when it’s a friend AND office mate, but deflection techniques can include “I sympathize with your situation, but it’s really none of my business.” At work, “I really have to get on with this now” and outside of work, “Let’s leave work matters in the office.”

  15. New ED*

    I just took on the position of Interim Executive Director at a small nonprofit and I’m drowning. I’m doing my old boss’s job as well as keeping most of my old duties. I’m struggling to be authoritative over people who used to be my teammates. Our cash flow worries me constantly and our development person resigned with no money on hand to hire a new one, so I do that job too.

    I can barely sleep, I’m so stressed.

    How long do you think I should allow myself to get used to this? How can I adjust and stress a little less?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      This sounds terrible, can you be very clear with the board about your availability to stay on as “interim” and that you (presumably) do NOT want to take on the role full time? I find this is a dicey place to be, the interim, because it can go on indefinitely and you’re getting all the stress with presumably not all the benefits of such a position, including the title for your resume and the money. The Board may not feel the hustle if you’re in place now and things are staggering on. You may need to set the deadline for them. At least that will help your stress, knowing help is coming and it won’t be forever.

      1. zora*

        And I totally co-sign this. You have to make sure the board is really clear on what temporary means and exactly what is not going to happen while you are covering three jobs, so that it’s obvious to everyone how important it is that they fill .. at least TWO of the three positions as soon as possible.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      . . . you’re doing three jobs.

      Either they need to hire more people or you need to start hunting.

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        Yeah, you need to do less. Cancel things – meetings, projects, whatever. Not everything can be a priority now, and I’d start with your old job responsibilities (which are the ones you’re most likely to do because they are familiar and comfortable and may feel “productive” but are not currently necessary).

    3. Hope*

      Are there any parts of your old duties or the development person that you can delegate to teammates? I would start there. And beyond that, worry less about being authoritative–hopefully your teammates get that you’re in charge, even if it’s interim.

      And definitely give yourself some time. Make sure you give yourself an hour each day to do something stress relieving–read, take a bath, meditate, punch a punching bag, listen to some music, garden, watch cat videos, whatever works for you. Maybe try to take that hour right before bed so you can go to sleep more easily?

    4. Kathenus*

      Definitely an untenable situation. I think you need to be very proactive here and look at the tasks as the interim ED and your former role, prioritize which ones need to be done that fit into a reasonable work day/week, then communicate to your board (or whoever you report t0) what your plan is. If you keep trying to do an unreasonable amount of work you set the expectation with those above you that it’s possible, and in some cases it could burn you because you can’t possibly do two full jobs well so they may not think of the overwork and just see the undone or poorly done areas where you can’t keep up. So take control and set a more realistic plan, which may include delegation if others have capacity to help or jobs that will be deferred or dropped during this period, and very clearly communicate it to those you report to so that you have appropriate expectations. Best of luck.

    5. CM*

      Don’t try to solo it. Approach things more like you and your former teammates are in this together (with you leading the charge) and work as a group to tackle whatever the most pressing problems are with the organization. Delegate as much as you can, and maybe cut back on some stuff until the money situation is solved and you can hire more staff.

      Don’t look at this as the moment you need to prove why you’re a star and the board should keep you as ED — just BE a star by not letting the organization sink even when that means leaning on other people and letting them lead in the areas where they have expertise.

    6. zora*

      You can’t ‘get used to this’. This is not a sustainable situation, by definition is has to be temporary.

      Honestly, it sounds like a sinking ship, and I personally would be seriously evaluating whether the org SHOULD exist at this point or if it’s time for a strategic exit strategy. As someone who had to fold an organization I helped found, I get it, it sucks. But sometimes, it needs to happen.

      And in the meantime you HAVE to triage. What are the absolutely most important things that need to happen right now, and everything else has to get put on hold. Yes, it does make things more messy later, but you really have to do this in the short term, otherwise you will collapse and literally end up in the hospital, and then nothing is going to get done.

    7. Quinalla*

      Geez, talk to your board right away. I’d done two jobs (one interim) before with a clear end in sight and a clear establishing of what I could and could not do from both jobs and that is stressful enough. Three jobs, forget it! You are going to have to delegate and make hard decisions about what just isn’t going to get done while this is going on.

    8. NJ Anon*

      Welcome to the non profit world. I put up with it for 13 years before running away from the stress. Good luck. I have no real advice, unfortunately.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      You don’t have a sustainable plan here as others have said.

      As far as being authoritative, I am not sure how you define that word. Carry an attitude that you need their inputs and their help. But make decisions when they need you to make decisions.

      Tell your board that you cannot do the development job also. This is actually true, you will not be able to handle all this. If you have a good relationship with one board member talk to that person. Tell them there is a problem here. If you do not really know the board, go to the next meeting if it’s coming up soon or depending on how you feel let the prez know there is an urgent matter going on.

      Part of a board’s function is to raise funds so they can work on that part. If you won’t meet pay roll soon, let them know now.

    10. Oof*

      1) Decide if you would want to put your hat in the ring or not.
      2) Call the executive board in. Get a hiring plan in place for the positions needed: ED, dev, your old job, etc.
      3) ED’s also do a LOT of fundraising – not knowing your background, it may make sense for you to focus on that and high level admin and delegate the rest. This is the conversation to have with your exec committee.
      4) Assign someone to pull files and develop a calendar – this is not the time to miss unknown deadlines! Trust me on that one.

      1. Loubelou*

        I was here last year, and I almost burned out. I left before my mental health took a permanent toll.

        Be very clear on the timeline with the board – “At this point I am going back to my old duties and there must be an ED in place by then.” And then do that. But keep an eye on job options too.

        The most important thing to remember is that this is not worth your health. The organisation may be doing fantastic work but it can’t be kept afloat by one person; don’t let the board guilt you into thinking that you must do everything or the organisation will collapse.

        Perhaps it’s their time. A year after I left my old org collapsed, and I know it’s because the board kept asking people to do impossible amounts of work and never stepped back to analyse the problems and take action.

        Lastly, please give up all hopes of becoming ED yourself unless you can see clear signs that both your old role and the DD role will be filled. Otherwise the board will get comfortable with you doing all this work and will have no reason to hire anyone else.

        Lastly, and most importantly, go and join the Non Profit Leadership Lab with Joan Garry. It is a wonderful community of non-profit leaders supporting one another and learning from Joan and one another. It kept me sane and I promise will help you! It’s very much worth the monthly subscription.

    11. RedinSC*

      You need help and you need it now. I would go to the board and see how they can support you in this. You can’t keep doing 3 jobs, so see how they can help (do some of your old work? Do some of the ED stuff? ) Make sure the board knows the cash flow issues and focus specifically on that right now. Can you send out a specific appeal, emergency funding, 1 time to get you guys over this hump and look to getting a volunteer in to help with the fundraising?

      This isn’t sustainable, and the board there needs to step up and help out.

  16. New ED*

    Tl;dr I recently took a leadership position managing my former teammates; I’m upset by the salaries I now know about.

    I was recently promoted at a small nonprofit I’ve been working at for a while. In my new position I have access to salary info. I’m kind of upset by what I’ve found about the three core team members.

    Leslie and Tom are paid the same amount, but Leslie is a much harder worker—she takes on harder projects and goes above and beyond. Tom is a good worker too, but can’t handle complex projects the way Leslie can.

    Donna is also a good worker, but also struggles sometimes. Her skills would be easier to replace than either Lesley or Tom. However, she is the highest paid employee! The reason is that she is on an H1B visa and apparently her salary had to meet a minimum threshold for the visa.

    I’m upset by this, but i can’t raise salaries any more—a bunch of people just got raises right before I started and it’s already straining our payroll (small nonprofit). I can’t go above me because…now I’m at the top.

    Argh. Thoughts?

    1. Fae*

      Any way you can give some non-monetary perks like WFH, flex-time, additional PTO, etc? Can you talk to LEslie about things that would make her job easier/better or improve her work/life balance? Outside of that the only thing you can do is wait for more money to come into the budget and try your best to allocate it appropriately.

    3. NW Mossy*

      One thing I’ll suggest is to give yourself some time to settle into your role before making dramatic pay changes.

      I’ve found over the years that when I start managing someone that I’ve worked with before (especially as a peer), I start looking at them with a different perspective and my read on their performance changes a lot. I’ve taken on people with reputations for being lackluster and been surprised at how much they upped their game when I came on board. I’ve had people I thought were amazing peers turn into managerial challenges, often due to the same behaviors I appreciated before.

      Let yourself see them through “boss eyes” for a bit. What you need from them as your direct reports is often different than what you needed from them when you were peers.

    4. CAA*

      The “minimum salary” for an H1-B visa is the local prevailing wage for her position. If Donna holds the same position as the other two and has the same degrees or certifications, then not only are Tom and Lesley underpaid within your organization, but they’re also earning less than the prevailing wage in your area. That means they could probably find jobs elsewhere and make more money. Also, it’s concerning that Donna would be the easiest one to replace because you’re only supposed to hire an H1-B visa holder in the first place if you’re unable to find those skills locally, and you believe those skills are easily available in your area.

      It sounds like you should plan to replace Donna in the long term. The easiest way is to find out when her visa expires and give her 6-months notice that you won’t be applying for an extension for her. This may take a couple of years depending on how long she’s been working for your org. Or if her performance is really sub-par, you can go through your process to terminate her employment and hire a replacement. You can post the new job with a lower salary than Donna is currently paid, and then redistribute the overall labor budget across all three positions. This has its own risks though. Lesley and Tom may feel insecure if their coworker is let go and may leave before you get everything realigned.

      1. New ED*

        Yes. Totally agree with what you are saying. There was zero reason to go through the H1B visa process for this position. It wasn’t my decision, but even if I had been given input, I did not fully understand the ramifications at that time. There are a lot of follow-on bad effects that we are still experiencing, such as the salary mismatch.

        However, her performance is not sub-par by any means–just not so stellar that she should be our highest-paid employee. I definitely don’t think there are grounds for termination and it would seriously lower morale if I did. I agree that I wouldn’t extend the visa though, but it’ll be a few years before that happens.

        1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          I’m not an expert on all the intricacies of the H1B system, but could she be a spouse or family member of someone else in the org (or a donor) and the visa sponsorship is tied to someone else with expertise that is hard to find locally. I wouldn’t assume that you can do anything about Donna. This leaves trying to keep things balanced workload wise. Make sure that you don’t lean too heavily on Leslie just because she is better at it. Make Tom and Donna step up as much as possible; even if they aren’t as good at it doesn’t mean they should get a pass from doing it.

        2. OhNo*

          While you’re deliberating, make sure that you consider possible damage to morale if you choose not to extend Donna’s visa. Even though it’s not a firing, people who aren’t familiar with the visa process and requirements may see it that way.

          Speaking from experience here: I had a coworker at an old job (who I wasn’t close with) who was on an H1-B visa when the company declined to extend. Folks who were friendly with the visa holder hit the roof – there was a lot of talk about the company “deporting” them, and allegations of racism/xenophobia. The HR folks did their best to counter misinformation, but by the time they got involved it was already a mess.

          That’s not to say that you should keep Donna on to avoid drama! Just put a little leg work in up front, so no one is left thinking that you robbed Peter to pay Paul.

    5. nonymous*

      Can you restructure the workload a bit to reflect wages? This doesn’t have to be immediate, but could be part of a year-long coaching plan.

  17. Pam Beesly*

    I’ve been an administrative assistant for most of my career and am looking to try something new. Any suggestions for positions I can look into that use similar skills but don’t involve sitting in front of a computer all day? Thank you!

    1. Jamie*

      If you’re in manufacturing you can get into QC. There will be some time in front of the computer, but at the inspector or even supervisor levels you will have plenty of hands on work.

          1. ..Kat..*

            My hospital has customer service representatives. It is a step up in responsibilities and pay from admin jobs

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Could you try to pivot into a sales assistant/sales coordinator type role? That position might involve some travel/going on site to client locations which may help you break up some of the monotony you’re experiencing.

      1. remote cat herder*

        I’ve worked as a sales assistant and it was 100% sitting at a computer, doing admin work to ensure that the sales process moved along quickly. This may vary by industry – I was in an industry that requires a ton of paperwork to be done – but I would proceed with caution.

    3. Kiwiii*

      Client management-related work uses a lot of the same skillsets; depending on what specifically you’re doing/where you’re working it wouldn’t necessarily be mostly computer work.

    4. Okay*

      Program assistant for a nature conservancy/preservation, should include spending time outside on location at events

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      The most efficient administration I know is also an efficient events manager–is that something you’d consider?

  18. Flipflops*

    Strange thing about my office – nobody really tells you properly how to quit, instead I got to investigate it through random parts of instructions! Oh you should write to HR about this. Hey you really should tabulate your remaining vacation. Yeah I heard you need to give 2 months notice.
    Our office always tried to train people by having the knowledgeable seniors train the noobies. Turns out this will really bite you in the ass when the people “trained in quitting their jobs” are of course, not there anymore.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      I have never been in an office that had training on how to quit. There are standard business practices (tell your boss first, including something in writing), and rules about what happens to vacation and sick time that tend to be detailed in the benefits documentation. But after 25 years, I’ve never been somewhere that had a formal ‘quitting’ process that was described anywhere. Managers and HR should have documentation as to what to do if an employee quits (computer access, keys, paperwork to HR, etc) but not the person quitting.
      And if you’re in the US, unless your notice time was described in a hiring contract (unlikely, but possible), then the 2 months is a company practice and possibly an industry standard, but is unlikely to be a true ‘rule’.

      1. secret chart*

        Yeah, same. We have a checklist for what to do after a person quits, but if a person wants to quit… they just quit. Things about the remaining vacation is handled by HR, you shouldn’t need to do that yourself unless your job is really disorganized.

        Usually people give 2-3 weeks notice around here, but we had someone quit with no notice before. Things happen.

    2. Jamie*

      No office teaches you that. In benign environments it’s because it’s just not a thing that’s covered in training and toxic environments take the collateral benefit of having people give up rights they didn’t know they had.

      Your handbook should tell you how vacation/PTO etc. is handled at separation and your state unemployment resources will guide you to your entitlements.

      1. Dana B.S.*

        If your handbook is silent on how vacation is handled and your state laws don’t cover it, then assume that you’re gonna lose it.

    3. Has Quit A Job*

      I don’t think you normally really learn about how to quit from the people you’re leaving. When I quit I made sure I was aware of how various benefits were timed (vesting, bonuses, etc) and read the handbook so I knew what I was due (PTO payout within a certain time frame, ESOP payout within a much longer time frame). Otherwise just look online for things to do when quitting. Once I was ready to quit I wrote a letter of resignation and went to meet with my boss. Ultimately we negotiated the date so I revised the letter and was told to give it to HR. That was it.

    4. juliebulie*

      You should be able to give notice to your boss, and your boss is supposed to figure out the rest with HR and IT.

    5. ContemporaryIssued*

      I remember googling (in my native language) “how to quit”. In my country we have contracts, however, so it’s pretty regulated, you give your two weeks or four weeks if you’ve been in the position for a really long time. I’ve only left easily replaceable positions however, ones where training a replacement/documentation was really not needed. However, when I did move from a role within the company I am at now, I did write up a huge document on everything I had knowledge of, as a sort of “passing on knowledge” that might not already be written down somewhere. As far as everything else is concerned, the company is expected to know how to wrap things up on their end, including vacation time and getting everything they need from you before you go.

    6. lulu*

      Agreed with everyone here, this is not a strange thing, no one trains you how how to quit a job! If you’re in the US, you just give notify to your manager verbally, telling them when your last day will be, then put it in an email if you want to have back up, and that’s it. The norm is to give 2 weeks notice. Sounds like you have an HR department, so they will take care of tabulating your remaining leave, and do the pay out if applicable. Does’t hurt to do the calculation on your side of course to double check they’re doing it correctly.

    7. Nicki Name*

      It’s a little odd not to know if the company requires or expects a notice period of a certain length. In my experience, that’s usually highlighted on the first day when signing all the initial paperwork. Other than that, agree with all the other comments that “training for quitting” isn’t a thing.

    8. Aitch Arr*

      We actually have a termination section in our Employee Handbook that talks about the process, including voluntary terms.

  19. Stephanie*

    Hello! I still read here regularly, but don’t always post.

    I have to drive for a business trip with a coworker early next week. Probably will be about 10 hours round/trip*. We get along fine and are close in age, but need to figure out something to listen to while driving. Any inoffensive podcast recommendations? That is, nothing too political or risque (which is most of my podcasts…)

    *Sigh, the distance is right at our fly vs. drive delineation.

    1. CTT*

      It’s still on-going, but I have been fascinated by “The Missing Crypto Queen,” about a bitcoin-like company whose founder disappeared conveniently before federal charges were filed against the company. It’s intriguing true crime without any murder or other sensitive subjects.

    2. ArchivesGremlin*

      Missed in History is great or “Dressed” (which fashion history but they are fantastic because don’t just talk couture fashion but every day fashion. I also like Radio lab. They’ve covered a bunch of interesting topics.

      1. Teapot Compliance*

        If you’re into design podcasts, Articles of Interest is awesome. Its the 99% Invisible spin off (6 eps) on clothing.

        Also, you could always share the awesomeness of Alison and see download a few episodes of Ask a Manager!!

      2. Princesa Zelda*

        The same network as Missed in History/Dressed/Stuff You Should Know also has a food podcast called Savor that is. so good. I really recommend it! The hosts are kind of silly but the information is always on point and wide-ranging, and they cover a wide variety of foods and food-adjacent things. They’re currently doing a subseries on Hawaiian food culture.

    3. Sharkie*

      If you are both somewhat interested in sports – Sports? with Katie Nolan is great. It is a 60- 90 minute pod and is really funny ( singing ad reads!!!!).

    4. merp*

      Maybe fiction? My eternal fave is Within the Wires – totally hooked me in by the second episode (starts a little slow in the first) and the story is incredible.

      1. juliebulie*

        Oh, I love WTW! That is, I loved the first season… liked the second a lot… third season was pretty good… current season we’re up to ep 4 and I’m still wondering if it’s going to get interesting.

        Each season is about 5 hours, so first two seasons could work.

      1. Mimi Me*

        I love Stuff You Should Know.
        My husband just listened to a podcast about the art heist at the Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum. He loved that. He also loves David Tennant does a podcast.

        1. Teacher Lady*

          The Gardner Museum podcast is called Last Seen, and I agree that it’s great and could fit the bill here!

          Also co-signing the suggestions for Stuff You Missed in History and RadioLab.

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “Episodic” books on tape or podcasts would be great. Something where you aren’t committed to the full 10 hrs, or would be sad if you missed something. So short pieces are awesome. (The All Creatures Great and Small series were our favorites on family road trips, but you may not want to bond with your co-workers over bovine prolapsed uteruses.)

      Radio Lab, This American Life, Story Corps.

        1. Quill*

          Oooh, check out Invention (same studio) they just did a bunch of stuff on grave robberies and coffins for their october podcasts.

      1. hermit crab*

        I’m not really a huge Freakonomics fan in general, but it is absolutely my go-to podcast for those “need something interesting and pleasant to listen to with someone I don’t know well” situations. There are lots of topics, so you can choose one of mutual interest and that is unlikely to be controversial.

    9. Quill*

      Okay, so load up on things that are primarily informational.

      My current favorites:
      Overheard at National Geographic
      Stuff You Should Know
      Stuff To Blow Your Mind
      Stuff You Missed in History Class

      1. Quill*

        Oh, note to the wise that Stuff To Blow Your Mind occasionally covers parasitism so read the notes before downloading.

    10. Aphrodite*

      How about audiobooks? I never listen to the radio but do listen to these. I favor nonfiction but find that books I wouldn’t read–mysteries, thrillers–can be fun to listen to. But as a recommendation I would encourage you to check out any of Simon Winchester’s books that he reads himself–Kratakoa is exceptionally interesting–or even Bill Bryson reading his own books such as In a Sunburned Country can be absolutely compelling. (Make sure they are the unedited versions, which will take up hours.)

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I cosign the audiobook recommendation. In fact, get in touch with the coworker in advance and see if the two of you can decide on an audiobook together.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I third this suggestion, mainly because I got into audiobooks by listening to P.G. Wodehouse novels when I worked at a law firm doing route work, and the guy who voided Bertie Wooster in the first couple of novels had me crying from laughing so hard. Now I need to go listen to those books again, lol.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Two favorite audio books are Mark Krlsnski”s two histories “Salt” and “Cod”. (There’s more to the titles but I’m blanking.) Either you can drop in & out of without losing the overall gist.
        And for fiction, I recommend two extremely different books; ‘Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day”, and the full cast recording of “World War Z”. And then there are mystery series–find out if you overlap reading a prolific autho and plan a marathon, be it Lee Child or Sue Grafton or Agatha Christie.

        1. Loubelou*

          Agreed on World War Z, as long as neither of you are squeamish! It’s ideal because it’s broken up into small chapters and it doesn’t really matter if you miss things because each chapter is standalone.

    11. E*

      Backstory – An American History Podcast; they talk about politics occasionally in an historical context, but rarely make specific pronouncements about their own.

    12. Sharkie*

      Also I hear office ladies -where Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey talk about the making of the office is good!

    14. Lemon Squeezy*

      The Weirdest Thing I Learned This Week hits the same chords as Stuff You Should Know for me. Both good options for interesting, non-heavy podcasts.

    15. san junipero*

      My absolute favorite is “No Such Thing as a Fish,” which is a British show that riffs on humorous and interesting facts. They do occasionally make political references, but they’re always blink-and-you’ll-miss-it one-off jokes.

      2. Nott the Brave*

        This one is great! Sort of trips off the brain, too, so you can listen to a bunch in a row.

        1. Loubelou*

          No Such Things as a Fish is wonderful and yes you can listen to plenty all at once. Bear in mind they are completely irreverent and do enjoy mocking Trump so don’t listen together if either of you would be sensitive to that.

          Seconding the many recommendations of Stuff You Should Know. Very safe and easy to listen to, and they can be funny too. I love their Pompeii and Malls episodes.

    16. bassclefchick*

      The Soundtrack Show! Oh, man, do I LOVE this podcast! Goes indepth into the music of favorite movies. It even starts with a mini lesson in music theory. Great as a refresher for me (former music major) and just basic enough for someone who likes music, but isn’t a band/orchestra nerd to understand. He’s covered many favorite movies.

    17. 00ff00Claire*

      – Stuff You Should Know
      – Car Talk (reruns, obviously, but still good if you like them)
      – Criminal (on prx; maybe, if you are selective about the episodes; it’s true crime / true crime adjacent, so while none of it is exactly PG (and some of it is very not PG), there are quite a few episodes that are not your run of the mill true crime and instead just fascinating stories that involve some aspect of the criminal justice system)
      – Gretchen Rubin’s Happier and her sister’s Happier in Hollywood
      – Ask Me Another, Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me, or some of the other NPR shows

      1. 00ff00Claire*

        Here are a few of the less risque episodes of Criminal.
        5 Dropping like flies
        23 Triassic Park
        27 No place like home
        29 Officer Talon
        40 Pappy
        61 Vanish
        73 Carry A Nation
        77 The Escape
        90 Sharks

      2. remizidae*

        I would steer clear of NPR. They are often extremely political, with a really condescending and insulting attitude towards people on the right. Maybe there are NPR shows that really aren’t political, though.

    18. Qwerty*

      I like “Myths and Legends” – each episode focuses on a myth or folklore story from around the world.

    19. Zephy*

      Ephemeral is very interesting and doesn’t cover any risque topics. There’s a season out now plus a bonus episode. It’s about, well, ephemera. Most of the first season focused on obscure audiovisual recordings and the people who collect them.

      Futility Closet is family-friendly and also very interesting. It’s mostly a history podcast, covering unusual people and events in history you may not have covered in school. They also do a lateral thinking puzzle at the end of every episode. There’s also a 200+ episode backlog, so you won’t run out of content on a 10-hour drive.

    20. LKW*

      Ologies! Podcast by Science Communicator Alie Ward. The tag line is “Ask smart people stupid questions” – you learn all about Sharks! Turtles! Tortoises! The Constitution! Cabins! it’s highly informative and very entertaining.

      Some cussing but overall great catalog and you can avoid the more risque topics easily.

    21. Donkey Hotey*

      20,000 Hz explores the history of sounds (such as an interview with the woman who is Siri’s voice).
      Hidden Brain is the podcast version of the NPR program on how brains work.

      And, if you want something more fiction-y, you can never go wrong with Wolf 359.

    22. Ranon*

      If fiction is an option, Mission to Zyxx might work- it’s humorous science fiction and tends to be pretty cozy/ kind hearted. It acknowledges the existence of sex in some episodes but it’s not explicit and generally “off page”. Bubble is another along a similar vein.

    23. Stephanie*

      Thanks for the suggestions! Adult stuff is ok, I just wanted to steer clear of anything super explicit like Risk.

    24. TL -*

      Gastropod, which does science and history of food. Fun, light, nothing sexual or violent or political. (Also I just realized it’s gastropod, with pod as in ‘podcast’ not ‘foot-like protrusion.’)

      Levar Burton Reads – short stories read by Levar Burton (of Reading Rainbow.) For adults but generally doesn’t get inappropriate for work. Really lovely and he chooses a wide variety of stories.

      Also if y’all both were fans of something as a kid, a podcast on revisiting it as an adult could be fun (like Babysitters Club or Animorphs or Gilmore Girls, all of which have fun podcasts.)

      My friends and I listened to Ella Enchanted on a road trip and loved it. We also rest 90s Australian Harlequin novels to each other but it wasn’t work appropriate.

    25. Tenebrae*

      Myths and Legends. The host tells stories from all over the world. My favourite SFW podcast: clean language, minimal violence, super interesting.

    27. A Poster Has No Name*

      “David Tennant Does a Podcast With…”

      He interviews people, and it’s fun. Some swearing. He has Ian McKellan on for one episode and he talks about growing up gay in his time, but I wouldn’t consider it risque unless your coworker is homophobic.

      Simon Majumdar’s “Eat my Globe.” He’s got three seasons on the history of various food/drinks. He also did a couple episodes on the food on the Titanic, for all classes, which was interesting.

    30. Gumby*

      Soooo many road trips as a child listening to Mrs. Pollifax books. (Back in the dark ages when they were on tape.) (And I was an under-10 year old with younger siblings so totally appropriate.)

      Did a road trip with a co-worker a few years ago with “The Year of Magical Thinking” and “I am America and So Can You” – though we both ended up not liking “The No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency” – so having a variety of books to choose from is a good idea. Public libraries FTW!

    31. smoke tree*

      If you are a language and etymology nerd like me, the Allusionist is a very fascinating podcast, and usually pretty funny and with interesting trivia even if language isn’t really your thing. Episodes are usually 15-30 minutes.

      1. Loubelou*

        Yes!
        Though some episodes can be a bit dull, most are very entertaining and you learn a lot! The Rosetta Stone episode was super interesting.

    32. blaise zamboni*

      If either of you are nerdy at all: Critical Role?

      It’s technically a DnD podcast but you only need a basic understanding of DnD to enjoy it. (A 1 is bad and a 20 is good — there ya go, that’s DnD.) The cast are hilarious and very effective storytellers. They changed podcast networks in the middle of season 2, which is where I jumped in, and the plot was really easy to pick up despite missing ~50 episodes.

      The first episode on their new network is a one-shot, The Search for Grog, which is 4.5 hours long, requires no other context, and made me belly-laugh in the middle of a quiet room (mortifying but worth it). The first ~15 minutes are an introduction to the show which wasn’t great for a newcomer, but it picks up after that.

    33. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      Late comment, but I just want to say that kids’ books might be something fun you could both enjoy. With 10 hours of drive time, you could probably do 3 or 4 or even 5 kids books, so you’d have some variety. Or do a mix. Your local library will have audio kids’ books.

    34. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      gak!!! the drive itself would make me nuts. I just like pleasant ambient music I can tune out if I have to navigate a roaming herd of llamas in the road. Ever since a hellish commute years ago where you had to be keenly alert and observant every. single. second., I can’t have anything on that I have to actually pay attention to.

      Thanks to the miracle of modern technology, if you don’t agree on drive-time listening, driver an have on what they like at a low volume, and passenger can have personal device w/ earbuds.

    35. Anonny*

      Heartily second Judge John Hodgman! Minor disputes between friends and family are debated in the court of a fake internet judge. Funny, gentle, respectful, and often surprisingly thoughtful rulings. It’s actually my go-to for escaping politics and other dreadful, depressing news of the day…and y’all may get some mileage debating the merits of a low stakes case as bonus small talk filler. My all-time favorite (and gateway episode) was Fudgie the Bail, wherein a wife takes a husband to court for making a birthday cake for their daughter.

  20. Anongineer*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to work internationally*? I currently work in the US, but would love to travel/live abroad for my work. I’m a civil engineer (which is still super broad but helps narrow it down haha) and I’m struggling for how to find companies and jobs that have that component – but I know they’re out there! 
    *Not necessarily Europe, I want the opportunity to stretch myself designing to different standards and learning how other countries tackle design problems. 

    1. ThatMarketingChick*

      Look for a company with projects or offices overseas. For example, my company is based in the US, but has projects in Canada and the UK. Our engineers move based on project location, which tend to be several-year assignments. This is either really attractive for folks, or a deal breaker. FWIW, I’m in heavy civil construction.

      1. Anongineer*

        That’s definitely in the range of what I want to do, though I’m from a design background! I come from a background of moving around a lot and would like to go back to that. I’ve got some companies I want to apply to (and will once I pass this PE) but it seems to be a harder industry (/industries) to break into.

        1. ThatMarketingChick*

          I can tell you that my company competes hard for engineers. It’s tough to find people who want to move and work wherever the company can send them. If you’re not involved in your local ASCE, ACEC, ASHE, or other professional organization, start going to meetings and get on committees or boards. My company, while a construction firm, has mostly PEs as our PMs – plus most of our Field Engineers are PEs. If you want to stay on the design side, look for firms that are pursuing large design-build or P3 work. That way, you’ll have a good chance on being able to move on-site and work with the construction team throughout the project.

    2. Want to work abroad too*

      Oh – I’m very interested in this as well! I’m in finance – in an area that is actually quite in demand internationally, but there are some major differences in standards/procedures (think something sort of like accounting – where the theory remains the same, but standards and rules will vary from country to country). There are definitely multi-national companies (with offices outside of the US) that would need employees well versed in US standards and I have some limited experience with the standards of several other countries.

      I’m just not sure how to conduct an international job search, especially because I don’t have any specific location I’d be targeting.

      Sorry to horn in on your thread! Just figured out situations are similar enough that any advice could be applicable to either of us.

      1. Anongineer*

        Oh no come on in! I’ve checked this thread before but never saw this question so thought I’d ask and hope people had advice.

      2. Ledgerman*

        Accountant (CPA) who just got a job abroad checking in! For accounting & finance, one of the easiest routes is targeting an organization you’d like to work for that has global operations. Is what you do generally in-house, or would you be a good fit for consulting? I’m with one of the Big 4 and they have a global mobility program that allows you to do short and long term assignments in other countries (and potentially “localize” there), and of course the Big 4 all have finance consulting groups/specialists. I also had a coworker who went to work for Accenture in another country.

    3. Kiwiii*

      I’d be really interested in doing the same in the future. I just joined a non-profit who does /some/ international work (we have clients in Canada and one Asian country) and is rapidly expanding, but my team doesn’t currently have clients outside of the country and our product is built around some government-adjacent things so I don’t know how likely we are to grow in that way, so I’ll either have to move within the company or figure something else out probably. My job is sort of “policy analyst” but involves quite a bit of code-adjacent work as well; the people who work/live/travel internationally at our company are much more client relations-based.

    5. Buttons*

      I worked all over the world, before coming back to the US a few years ago, and I intentionally job hunted for companies that were global, because as soon as I finished grad school I was determined to live in Europe, Australia, and eventually I settled in Canada for many many years.
      Even though I am no longer interested in living in place other than the US or Canada, I still chose a global company. I work for a technology company (LOTS of every kind of engineer, software developers, etc) , and we have offices all over the world. We have a formal program that allows people to be assigned to different regions. During employee self-evaluations we ask them to update their personal information and one of the questions is, would you be willing to relocate to a different country? And then they select which countries they are interested in moving to. Typically, assignees go for 2 years.
      I know that in Canada Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists of Alberta (APEGA) helps people make the transition into Canada because of regulatory differences.
      So my advice: find a company that has global offices, reach out to your professional organization in what every country/city you want to live in. They will have tons of resources.

    6. RecoveringSWO*

      It’s not a perfect fit, since you’d be working for a US company, but the US Army Corps of Engineers employees civil servants throughout the world. A former coworker of mine did a bunch of international rotations while working for them. I’d check out USAJobs and see where USACE and other agencies are placing engineers.

  21. Snubble*

    In the Sagas of Bella, the Affliction, we enter a phase of increasing revelations about just how little this department is being managed at all. The backlog wouldn’t exist if someone was keeping a list of the llamas.The department inbox is in the hands of a parttimer who repeats daily that she doesn’t have time to both groom her llamas (who all have special requirements, under the theory that there are fewer of those) and manage the inbox, and Bella glares and repeats that she needs to catch up. I’m not an expert, but I feel there are other available solutions than leaving it in the hands of the person who says she can’t solve it.
    I’m warming up to Boy Blue a little. I don’t like him personally, but he does spend most of his time wokring and can keep track of his own tasks. Bella spends probably 20% of her time making personal phonecalls, so the bar isn’t high, but he’s meeting it!

  22. Sharkie*

    I am struggling with taking time off.
    Honestly, I think I am afraid that I will always have ball in the air and if I take any time off no one will catch them. It’s not deadline work it’s just little things. I also hate feeling like me taking time off will leave my co-workers in a pinch. Is this a normal feeling?

    1. secret chart*

      It’s a normal feeling that can fluctuate with how much, in fact, will fall down when you’re not there. That’s not a reason not to take vacation, of course, but it does mean that you’re gonna spend the first couple days you’re back picking up balls.

      In the third-previous job, if I went away for a day, my boss would find a way to delete important documents and generally make a giant mess in ways I don’t even understand how it was possible. When I left for a week in the following job, it was a breath of fresh air that I could leave and no one would destroy anything.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        That feels so familiar…I came back once to find that ‘the database broke.’ Code for “the boss didn’t want the file to be so big so deleted unused components.” And of course they weren’t unused.
        And I’m not a database developer, so I had to develop new skills quickly.

    2. merp*

      I’ve been there but I think it’s really worth it to talk through this with someone you trust! If it’s just little things, maybe making a list and figuring out who could take care of what. And, if they’ll be helpful, maybe your manager can be part of this – see if you can figure out a good time to take time off together. If it’s coming from a place of anxiety, maybe give some anxiety coping methods a try and see if they work for you?

      1. merp*

        Wait, phrasing – by “see if you can figure out a good time to take time off together” I meant “talk with your manager and decide together when might be a good time for you to take time off.” Not like, taking time off with your manager. That was probably clear but wanted to fix it, haha.

      2. Sharkie*

        My boss and I are the only ones in the department and he is wayyy to busy to do all the grunt tasks every day

        1. QCI*

          But at the end of the day, that’s your bosses problem, not yours. You’re entitled to that time off.

          1. Just stoppin' by to chat*

            Right. It’s ultimately a leadership decision not to staff appropriately, ensure enough staffing and resources to cross-train, etc.

    3. rayray*

      I think it is normal to feel that way, but please allow yourself to put yourself first. Everyone needs vacations, sick days, or mental health days. You’ve earned it and are entitled to use it. If you’re worried about deadlines and such, try talking to managers or coworkers about coverage while you’re gone. See if any cross-training can be done so there’s someone to pitch in when you need time off.

      Taking time off is good for you. Take a break to enjoy yourself and to recharge.

      1. Sharkie*

        I wanted to take a mental health day today but I just couldn’t do it. I think it’s a mental thing. My parents would not let me or my siblings stay home from school unless we were gushing blood or throwing up (or throwing up blood) and that mindset is ingrained in me. I do think it has caused some unhealthy habits -recently my dad was hit by a car while walking the dog and was at work the next morning against doctor’s orders- so I trying to break the cycle. I just physically can’t allow myself to relax.

        1. rayray*

          I understand how you feel. What if you scheduled your mental health day in advance? That way people are prepped for you to not be there, and you might feel less guilty. That’s the way I do it. I know it doesn’t help if today you woke up wanting the mental health day, but it is nice to plan it out and not feel guilty that your coworkers got sprung with your work with no notice. Depending on how much notice your office needs, you could just pick a Friday coming up and say you are getting out for the weekend.

          Now, if your office is unreasonable about granting time off requests or if it’s one of those “you have to be sick to use sick days” then just try to be okay with the idea of a mental health day and call in the morning. Mental health days are so great and so necessary once in a while.

          1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

            Yes. I have scads of accrued time off, and this year I decided I would schedule some Fridays off for day-cations. I live in a highly touristed area with lots of wonderful things to see and do–but do I ever go? I am now, on weekdays, and let the tourists have the weekends.

        2. Reba*

          Re: mindset, maybe you can try to frame it in a new way. Taking time off isn’t selfish or lazy or harming your workplace. On the contrary, taking time off is part of being a *good* worker, in that it guards against burnout and refreshes you so you can keep working well.

          Or, another possibly more cynical way of looking at it is that your company doesn’t really care about you when it comes down to it. (I mean in the sense of “loyalty” to the org when they would cut you loose whenever it would benefit them.) You are the one who has has to take care of yourself. If you never use time off, you’re not claiming all the compensation that was part of the deal with your company. You don’t owe them every day of your life! You owe them a reasonable amount of work.

          (I know many companies and managers DO care!)

          Fwiw the perfect attendance award approach to life has just never spoken to me. I definitely got the “work hard, try your best” messaging in other ways!

        3. !*

          Is this about how worrying about leaving your coworkers in the lurch (which you certainly would not be!) or what your parents would think if you took time off (for whatever reason, it’s your life!). Like another poster said, grit your teeth and take a day, it does get easier, and for some of us we LIVE for our vacation days… Vacation/sick days are crucial to your mental and physical health, everyone needs some down time, I don’t care what your parents say/do, they are wrong about this. That your father went to work the next morning, after being hit by a car, against doctor’s orders speaks volumes that he’s not putting himself first. You gotta take care of you first.

          1. Sharkie*

            Oh no- my parents don’t care about if I take days off or not. They just have a strong work ethic and that was ingrained in us- with some unforeseen side effects.

        4. Seeking Second Childhood*

          One of my friends once told me I had an overdeveloped Protestant work ethic. I laughed, but she taught me to relax. Mostly.

    4. Not A Real Accountant*

      Unfortunately, that does seem to be a very normal feeling… hopefully your workplace is able to handle this, because taking time off is very important, should be a totally normal thing, and you need to take care of yourself.

      Do you have anyone specific (always helps to have a specific person/specific people, not just “the pool of coworkers in general”) who can cover those little things for you, or keep an eye on any of those balls? Maybe spend a little time going over those kind of things before you head out, and that might help you feel better about leaving.

    5. Kathenus*

      My advice is similar to people who are dealing with unrealistic workloads either from their core job or trying to fill multiple roles at once during short staffing. If you can’t (or feel you can’t) take any time off without important tasks being undone, that’s the problem to solve now both for your mental health and ability to use your time off as you should, and for the needs of the business because they should be able to absorb someone being gone without a negative impact since it’s inevitable that it will occur at times – either planned like time off or unplanned if someone leaves or has an emergency and is out.

      Maybe start with looking at your tasks and listing them out. From there you could look at both prioritization of what absolutely has to be done, and also what the schedule/frequency is for tasks. By delineating them out it may make it easier to see what areas there could be changes in (reduced expectations when there is shorter staffing, delegation options, efficiencies, etc.).

      Then agree with meeting with your manager to discuss how to cover when someone is out since it will happen at some point, and since you need to be able to take your time off without stress or guilt. But I think it’s about finding a long-term plan for how to deal with work when someone is out, I don’t think that you should have to work out specific times that are ‘good’ for you to be able to be off, that’s too limiting. I’m not talking about things like the holidays or exceptionally busy periods for your business, but for general operating there needs to be a plan to function with reduced staffing in a reasonable way. Good luck.

    6. Dana B.S.*

      The best way to get over this feeling? Take vacation days! Each one will feel a little bit easier. If it doesn’t, then that’s something that you need to address with your manager – better planning, better ways to ask for assistance. Or your company’s culture is not very good and you will never feel comfortable.

    7. Quinalla*

      I think it is somewhat normal to feel this way, but also, just figure out a way to delegate tasks or just let your boss know that X won’t get done until I am back. The little things especially I wouldn’t sweat, but again, just let your boss know that those things can wait until you are back.

      You need to take your time off, it is important. And honestly, sometimes I think about it this way, the few times I had to be out unexpectedly – emergency, very ill, accidental fall and ER trip – work always managed while I was gone and that was with no notice. If you prep people for your time out, it will be fine! Yes, you might have to do catch up when you get back, still worth it.

      And honestly, I find taking more time off is easier than just taking a day off. For a day off, I usually just cram all my work into the days before or pick up after, when I’m out for a week, I have no choice but to delegate. So maybe take a week off, it sounds counter-intuitive, but it might be easier :)

    8. Heat's Kitchen*

      I think it’s normal, but I’m going to throw something a bit morbid at you. This has helped me (and my husband who sounds a lot like you), get on board with taking time off.

      What would happen if you got hit by a bus tomorrow and were in a coma for a few weeks*? They might struggle through some things you have in the air, fumble a bit with unexpected items, but they’d deal. If you take your PTO, you can plan ahead. You can make contingencies. I’ve even offered to have phone calls that are quick on my day off for emergencies. Otherwise, colleagues can determine if their work for you can wait a few days.

      Take the time. It’s good for you. It’s good for the company. Work isn’t everything.

      *this is assuming you’d fall under FMLA/Disability/would be expected and able to return to work after a not short, but not super long, period of time.

    9. Buttons*

      This was how I was, and part of it was because if I am not here, there is literally no one else to do any part of my job. Then, a few years ago, I got viral pneumonia. I was in the hospital for 3 days, then I was home for weeks and weeks. I work from home, and I didn’t take any time off. None. I was literally laying in bed, doing a breathing treatment, while typing. I couldn’t talk without wheezing, and I still led all my scheduled webinars. Not once did my boss tell me to reschedule, or take time off, my grand boss didn’t even send me an email when I emailed her and my direct boss that I was in the hospital with pneumonia. It took me 3-4 months to recover fully from that. Once I was fully recovered I realized how ridiculous the whole thing was. I should have at least taken a couple of weeks off. It taught me that they will literally work us to death if we let them.
      So I recently took 2 weeks off, and didn’t once check email or text with any of my employees or boss. They can handle anything that comes up, or not. I don’t care. It was glorious, and you know what? Nothing happened. The place didn’t fall apart without me.
      Take time off, you earned it. You need it. It is yours.

    10. Lucy Preston*

      I feel like it shouldn’t be normal, but for me it is. Want to take off a few days, just for down time. Boss had a looming deadline this week, for which they often seek my input, so felt obligated not to go anywhere the last 2 weeks. Now 3 new short-term projects have popped up.
      Then I also have to get beyond the “it won’t get done the right way without me here” attitude. I use things like yesterday when all the co-workers ran out the door ahead of me yesterday and none of them seemed to remember that we had to lock up the place first (this is a standard thing on days when the boss leaves first, like yesterday).

    11. The Rat-Catcher*

      I don’t know what country you are in, but the US is notorious for hiring the bare minimum number of staff needed, creating gaps if anyone takes off. This is your company’s decision and their responsibility to figure out what that means when people take off.
      Alternately: do you feel “in a pinch” when your coworkers take PTO? If not, it stands to reason that they don’t feel that way about your time off either. If you do, at least you probably recognize that this is company’s fault for not figuring out coverage or pushing back low priority tasks or any other of a plethora of solutions available to them. Please take your time off.

  23. Christina*

    Has anyone gone through Google Analytics training and/or certification? Any suggestions and did you find it helpful? Managing our website content is part of my job, and I’m trying to get a handle on our analytics, which exist, but we’ve never really used them for anything and they’re likely very out of whack (we don’t currently have any filtering set up to ignore our staff using our site).

    I’m also interested in figuring out how to use campaigns that track social media and email activity, so…this will be interesting and definitely a new skill for me!

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I have! And yes it was incredibly helpful. The trainings are very in depth and if you’re going to use their platform (which is really good) you should absolutely take the courses.

    3. IJustTookADNATestTurnsOut*

      I’ve done Analytics and AdWords, and both were great. I learned a ton, and it’s especially fun to do the training when you’re in a position where you can instantly put your new knowledge to work! Definitely recommend.

    4. spock*

      Caveat that I only read analytics reports rather than generating them, but I wouldn’t worry too much about recording your staff unless your traffic is very low, in which case analytics might not be super useful compared to user studies?

  24. rayray*

    What is it with people having zero or almost negative patience for new employees? I understand it’s not easy to train people and I also know how you get used to a routine, you forget to point out details you’re so used to. I just think people need to realize that someone could be very competent and experienced in their field, but at a new office, they have to learn how *that* office functions and how the culture is. You need to learn how things are filed, how supplies are ordered, what things are okay to take from the supply closet and what isn’t, the etiquette for office parties, how meetings are ran etc. So many things differ from one office to the next, and I’ve definitely been scolded/sighed at/yelled at for things I didn’t know about when I was still learning. For example, a manager lost it with me because I’d had the audacity to use bigger paperclips (which were provided to me at my desk) instead of the little ones she prefers. I remember another job where a coworker had missed an important step in my training and then yelled at me till I cried because it wasn’t done. It was one of those things she was so use to doing that it didn’t occur to her to be diligent in pointing it out to me because apparently, I should have just known.

    But yeah… New employees need time to adjust and learn. Just try to be patient, and remember they need to be told things even if you think it seems obvious. You’d be surprised the things people won’t just catch on to immediately, (like preferred size of paperclips)

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I’ve always suspected that places like this are running on not quite enough staff, so when people are asked to slow down to help a new employee (but still maintain normal productivity), it’s a step too far. Any other red flags?

      1. Not A Real Accountant*

        That’s definitely the case at my place (as a result I still don’t know how to refill the postage machine; here’s hoping the two who do don’t go on vacation at the same time!).

        But on the other hand, if you are a real accountant, and you’ve been here eight months… and are still adding up duplicate invoices for payment… I don’t know what to tell you.

    2. DamitsDevon*

      The people in your office seem unnecessarily harsh? I’ve been a new employee in a few high pressure jobs (like answering a domestic violence hotline) and people were still very patient with me.

      At my current job, we did have one person who seemed to get impatient when new employees made a mistake because no one told them how not to make the mistake or didn’t know how to do something because not they hadn’t learned how to do it yet. However, that person resigned a few months, possibly to avoid being fired, so i don’t think even the other veteran employees at the office could deal with her attitude.

      1. rayray*

        The woman who yelled at me at the one job – so she was older and her daughter was a manager. It was a law firm, and my first out of college job. I strongly suspect that she was still kinda baby-ing her adult daughter, and knew that mistakes made would give her more work. The place wasn’t well staffed as Dust Bunny suggested it might be, and that was definitely part of it. So it was an unusual situation, and maybe an extreme example, but I remember taking on task to go make copies just to get away from her and another attorney noticed I was upset, and he calmed me down and told me it was okay and no mistake I make was that detrimental. I think he talked to her about it.

    3. Jamie*

      Your examples indicate a very toxic office. No way yelling about paperclip or berating someone until they cry are signs of people being reasonable otherwise.

      1. Amethystmoon*

        Well, there was a toxic workplace I worked at once years ago. I recently looked up at Glassdoor and it has a 1.5 star rating. It’s a small manufacturing company with high turnover. The CEO yelled at people constantly. I was yelled at for not using a certain kind of pencil to take notes, but there was no reason given why I had to use that kind of pencil. I seriously think he was OCD. That was one of the few jobs I’ve ever quit as an adult, and only because I saw him lose his temper so much at so many people for little things — was like 20 or so years ago when I had it. Workplace bullies do exist.

    4. Chronic Overthinker*

      I know the feeling! I just finished my probationary period and I am nailing the routine tasks but am still learning about all the personalities of the office and adapting my behaviors to each individual. I got to the point where I actually created an SOP file for each team member to remind myself how they each operate. It seems like overkill, but I know they appreciate it, as I am paying attention to details that others might miss.

    5. Michelle*

      I completely agree. I’ve seen managers sigh and practically push a person away from the registration computer because they were not going “fast enough”. When the customer left, I pulled the manager to the side and reminded them that these was the “new person’s first day so they don’t know how to run the registration program, you are supposed to be training them and by the way, pushing a employee, especially in front of customers, is not a good look and could get you in trouble”. They looked at me like I was speaking a language they didn’t understand. They interviewed and hired this person, they should have an idea about what skills this person has and what computer programs they have knowledge of. We were all newbies once upon a time. A little patience can create a great amount of good will.

    6. Just Another Manic Millie*

      This reminds me of a job I had working for a stockbroker. I got the job through an employment agency. The employment agency guy told me that experience working for a stockbroker wasn’t necessary. So did the branch manager. So did the office manager. So did the stockbroker. So did his son, who was also a stockbroker. So did his sales assistant, who told me that he would be the one who would train me. But when I started the job, I found out that experience was necessary, because no one, especially the sales assistant, was interested in training me.
      People said that he didn’t want to train me because he was afraid that if I became very good at my job, he would be fired.

      Then they jerked me around. They sent me on an interview for a similar job at a branch office, but they gave me the wrong address, so by the time I got to where I was supposed to be, I was very late. And I did not get the job. Then they created a brand new job for me. I was thrilled. Then they said that they didn’t get approval from headquarters for my new job and resulting salary. I continued to work at that new job and get paid. Then they told me that I had a limited amount of time to look for a new job elsewhere while continuing to get paid. I managed to find a new job, and I gave two weeks notice after I was there for four months. When I gave notice, I was told oh gee, they had just that second gotten approval from headquarters for my new job there, but too bad, I had just given notice. (I did not believe them for one second.) And then I found out that they were angry at me for having quit, because they owed the employment agency the full fee, because I had worked for them for over three months.

      The training that I got was from an employee with a similar job who started working at that company two weeks before I did. What’s funny is that he found a new job around the same time that I did.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I quit a job when the manager screamed at me for making a mistake — on day three. Literally screamed. It was an accounting office, and I’d been hired as the receptionist. They also assigned me payroll duties (for a client!) that weren’t mentioned in the interview, and expected me to help them do personal stuff for their church activities. The screaming was so over the top.

      If they’ve been in the job for a while, people do forget what it’s like to adjust to a new workplace. But managers and coworkers should not be actually yelling at you for stuff like that.

    8. LabTechNoMore*

      I see so much of this too, and also don’t understand it. I typically say that good at training new employees, but really I just answer questions and understand that if I didn’t show them a step during training, then they will not do that step. It’s not that I’m good at training, I just don’t hold new employees to the unreasonable standards that many others seem to.

      1. blackcatlady*

        Sigh. We get postbacs in the lab and I get to train them. I just go in knowing I will have to suspend my work and work one on one for several weeks. Depending on the person it can be fast or painfully slow. But I set up experiments that will teach them and we do it together. Obviously different from business world. Having patience helps!

    10. Curmudgeon in California*

      Yelled at you for using the “wrong” size of paperclips? I’d have looked at that manager like they just sprouted a male urination appendage in the middle of their forehead.

      Yelling at you until you cried over missing a step that they forgot to train you on? Hello, let me update my resume, this is intolerable.

      Seriously, expecting a new person to perform like they’ve been there for years is ludicrous. If they miss something, it is incumbent on the person who trained them to correct the omission or error in their training. If it happens on the same process more than three times, then they might need to have a quality check: “What is it about Teapot polishing that is tripping you up? I’ve gone over what polishes and emery cloths to use at what stage and how long each needs to be done for. Can you polish one while I watch to make sure that we haven’t left out a step?”

    11. Dove*

      I recently found out that the most likely reason why the employment agency got told not to send me back to the plastics factory I did one shift for, is because the plastics factory doesn’t want to have to train its workers. Which doesn’t really work well when they’re also wanting the employees to do complex tasks that *require* training in order to do properly.

      As it turns out, the plastics factory also has a reputation for going through temps like crazy.

    12. MissDisplaced*

      IDK I’ve almost never got any training at the places I’ve worked at. For my job, it’s expected you’ll hit the ground running.
      But I’ve also never got training on basic things like expenses or purchase orders either. It can really suck and suck time trying to figure all this out, and yes people get annoyed at you. As if you’d know, because every company does these things differently!!!!

      The office admins always DID know, but unfortunately so many companies have cut support staff.

  25. Amber Rose*

    Fair warning, this post/question is not a pleasant one, and deals with death.
    .
    .
    .

    OK. Last week, probably Friday, my coworker’s brother took his own life. The kid actually worked here for a while, I posted about him two years ago since he wouldn’t look anyone in the eye or talk much even when asked a direct question and definitely seemed to be struggling with some kind of severe anxiety at least. Despite my efforts to make this a safe-ish workplace for him, the stress became too much and he quit. And now he’s dead. So. That… is hard.

    In response to this, the company has decided to make a charity centered around suicide our annual Christmas charity. On the one hand, I think it’s a nice thought and I understand we’re all trying to be supportive. On the other hand, I’m worried that it’s basically going to mean every money raising thing we do from now on is gonna be like holding up a megaphone at him and yelling “HEY REMEMBER HOW YOUR BROTHER IS DEAD”

    Am I overthinking this?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Oh, how sad, I’m so sorry. I would assume the company reached out to the survivors in some way to check this with them, if it didn’t directly involve me I wouldn’t necessarily get involved other than perhaps share a kind word to the coworker or let them know you’re there if they want to talk.

    2. Jennifer Strange*

      I don’t think you’re overthinking it; this is a tough situation to navigate! Has the company actually spoken with the coworker about how he feels about this? Obviously centering a charitable effort on suicide doesn’t mean it’s specifically about him and his family – though that does seem to have been the impetus on choosing to focus on this particular topic. It might be nice to confirm that having a charity program centered around something that hits so close to home isn’t going to some how make the grieving process even harder for him.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I don’t know. It was my boss’s idea, and I know she (and a bunch of others) went to the funeral and spoke with my coworker and stuff. But it was someone else who approached me and asked if I was OK with us switching from the charity we’d voted on a week ago, one to do with kid’s cancer.

        I said I was OK with it without thinking, but the more time goes on the more uneasy I feel.

        1. Holly*

          Wait, I’m confused – so the coworker and his family said they were okay with the suicide prevention charity, but someone else randomly wants it to be switched? Or did the coworker say he was uncomfortable? Because it could be extremely offensive if this *was* something the coworker appreciated and then it was switched on a whim

          1. Amber Rose*

            No, we voted this year on a charity to do with kid’s cancer, that was a week or two ago. After we learned about this whole thing, my boss suggested we switch to a suicide prevention charity, which I heard about through a different person who was going around making sure everyone was OK with the switch.

            All I know is it was my boss’s idea. I know she talked to him, but I don’t know if she talked to him about this specifically.

            1. CAA*

              I think you should raise your concerns with your boss. Just ask her if she talked to him about switching charities and say that you’re wondering if it might be too much for him this year, since his loss is so recent and raw. If she says that he okayed it then your concerns are addressed. If he didn’t okay it, then at least you’ve given her the idea that she should have that conversation before proceeding and the ball’s in her court at that point.

              I once had an employee whose wife committed suicide. It’s a very difficult situation for all, and I’m sorry that you’re having to navigate this.

        2. MoopySwarpet*

          If you have any standing to say so now, I think keeping the original charity and adding the suicide charity to the list to be voted on for next year might be more appropriate.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I don’t think you’re overthinking it. Maybe suggest to whoever is responsible for choosing the charity that someone ask coworker if he’s okay with it. On one hand, he might be appreciative and touched, but it might also be too much of a reminder too soon.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        I’d second this.

        Also, be aware that it might be ok the day the coworker is asked, but might still bring up pain at unexpected times. Which might be ok. Depends on the coworker.

        I still have trouble working with folks dealing with substance abuse recovery because my brother recently died of some combination of his addiction behaviors and addiction-related health conditions. Some days are good, some are really not so much.

    4. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

      I don’t think you’re overreacting: that’s exactly how I felt when my best friend died and people kept giving me condolences. But he might feel differently, and I feel like someone should definitely ask him how he feels about it (with the understanding that his feelings will be taken into account – if it’s just a token gesture and they go through with it anyway, there’s no point).

    5. juliebulie*

      I’m so sorry. That must have been a shock.

      I think the annual thing is okay as long as it was cleared with your coworker. I doubt that yelling “YOUR BROTHER IS DEAD” into a megaphone will make much of a difference to your coworker, who will be thinking the same thing 24/7 for a very long time. It’s possible that he will hear that as “HEY WE REMEMBER THAT YOUR BROTHER EXISTED AND WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE THIS MEAN SOMETHING,” which is what they probably intend.

      I lost a coworker recently (I believe you were one of the nice people who gave me advice at the time), and it’s weird to see her cubicle every day. Often it feels as though I’m the only one who remembers her, because no one ever mentions her. It’s like she never existed. I would be comforted if we had an annual fund in her memory. Perhaps your coworker feels the same.

        1. LurkerVA*

          This. I agree that they should check with the coworker. Every situation is different obviously, but I’ve found that the survivors I know (and sadly I know several) would rather someone recognize their loved one vs. pretending it didn’t happen or tiptoeing around it.

      2. bdg*

        This is spot on, imo. My dad died a few months ago. I think about it a lot, so there’s no point in worrying that you’d be reminding me that he died of cancer. I already remember. The only thing that makes it worse is the “he’s in a better place” or “he’s free of pain” sort of platitudes. I like when people say something to me. It makes me feel like I’m not the only one who’s sad that he’s dead.

      3. Dana B.S.*

        I agree – your co-worker is already thinking about it no matter what. Plus, everyone else at your company would like to do something to honor him in their own way as well since many people knew him.

        My cousin ran a non-profit for a few years that provided grief counseling. She said that it is quite common for grieving individuals to use their grief to fuel a campaign for awareness, prevention, etc. So your co-worker may actually be completely on board.

      4. Rachel in NYC*

        I agree. Shortly after I started at my current job- maybe 6 months- we lost a co-worker at a hit-and-run. He’d been a long time employee and it was hard for everyone. The office arranged transport for the wake and the funeral for anyone who wanted to go. But afterwards, they also added a wooden plaque in our office- it’s small but daily reminder that he was here and mattered.

    6. Snorkmaiden*

      Charities like this get a lot of their fundraising contributions from people donating in someone’s memory. Lots of people find it meaningful and the charity will know how to navigate it in terms of any promo stuff also.

    7. QCI*

      Don’t make every charity campaign about suicide prevention, put it on rotation. He isn’t the first and wont be the last to be directly affected by it, but I’m sure he’d rather not bring it up every time there’s a charity either.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Grief varies for people. Some might totally appreciate the remembrance at Christmas. Others may prefer for it to be January RIGHT NOW. And there’s a bunch of reactions in between.

      It concerns me that the boss changed charities. I think it’s more important to either pick a charity and stay with it OR decide to do a rotational thing. If she drops this charity in favor of a more recent death, I think that could be pretty hurtful.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Sorry I was unclear with my original post. Our charities always rotate. We never do the same one twice, or at least, until we run out of charities.

    9. Anono-me*

      It might be helpful to check the obituary to see if there’s any request for donations to X charity in lieu of flowers comment. (Probably check the onlime obit from the funeral home as those tend to be much longer than the ones in the local paper.) That might give you some clues as to how the family feels and an opening to discuss the charity choice with your boss.

      I do want to add that I think you’re being incredibly compassionate and farsighted to be concerned about this.

  26. merp*

    I feel like I have to admit this somewhere. Earlier this week at about 9am I crouched to get a book for a patron (which I do approx. 1000 times a day, feels like) and my pants split. Faced with either confessing and taking time to go home to change, or going out to buy pants on a break…. I opted instead to just wear a long cardigan all day, given that it wasn’t visible from the front. Every time I got another book or crossed my legs I could feel the tear getting worse, but I got away with it! Felt like I was carrying around this weird secret all day, but seriously, the other options weren’t great – no place nearby to get clothes, would have had to get coverage to go home, etc. RIP (heh, puns) to my fave work pants :(

    Anyone have fun embarrassing stories to share so I feel less like a weirdo?

    1. Lieutenant Jingles*

      Oh I had the exact same incident. Bent down, RIPPPPPP, bye bye old dress trousers. I had to wear my shawl around my waist like a weird apron over my dress pants! thank god everybody was kind enough not to point out how weird that look was.

      2. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

        Can do you one better. About ten years ago, my weekends were double shift, eight hours off, then another full shift plus four hours on for a couple of years. I started taking pole dancing classes right after my 12-hour shift (so much caffeine and stress, who could sleep?), but did not have time to stop off home and change between shifts, so I’d sleep on the office couch, plus our boss was a little super-paranoid about us bringing personal possessions into the business (it was… not non-toxic). So, I’d wear exercise-suitable pants and a t-shirt under my top and, not to put too fine a point on it, peel off my undies and stick them in a plastic bag in my purse at some point.

        All of which was _fine_, couldn’t possibly be any better.

        Until one day, I was called up to demonstrate a move resembling a deep plié in second position.

        The pants I was wearing split all down the _front_, and I exposed myself as a natural redhead to fifteen non-consenting bachelorettes.

        I want to say that I made some sort of quip and apologized and made it right, but I just left and never came back.

    2. An Elephant Never Baguettes*

      Oh, I’ve had that happen too! Wore my sweater around my waist the entire day and prayed they wouldn’t fall apart completely…

    3. Ali G*

      I was once on the metro on my way to work and I felt like people were either staring or trying not to stare at me. Feeling self-conscious, I turned and caught my reflection in the window. My shirt had burst wide open and I was actively flashing my bra to the entire packed train car. I got off at the next stop, even though it wasn’t my destination.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      Once left the restroom with the end of my sash-type belt tucked into my pantyhose . . . holding the skirt of my dress up for all the world to see. I made it halfway across the party before a coworker noticed and dived to pull the sash out of my waistband.

    5. voluptuousfire*

      Yep! I worked in a bakery in high school and ended up finding a $10 pair of Abercrombie and Fitch jeans in TJ Maxx. I fell in love with them and wore them quite often. Wore them to work one day and crouched down to put some cakes in the display and RIP! Right down the back seam. The denim was a lighter denim material so it wore out quicker. I ended up turning my apron around to cover my butt. Luckily it was shortly before closing. :)

    6. Panda*

      You handled it well!

      Once, I leaked through a pad all over my office chair while having a horribly heavy period. I went into my boss’s office crying who sent me home to change and called Facilities to clean my chair ASAP. By the time I got back, the chair was clean and she had a different chair there for me to use while it was drying.

      PS. The hysterectomy I had after that incident was the best decision!

    7. whatthemell?*

      Lolol!!

      Back when I was waitressing at a ridiculously busy restaurant, my work pants split in the back during my shift. We wore apron-type uniforms over our white oxfords and black pants so I put a towel folded over in the back where the apron was tied in order to cover my ass – literally and figuratively!

      So embarrassing, someone actually saw it happen and when he saw it he said “I saw your pink underwear!” but it was actually my butt – I wasn’t wearing pink underwear!

    8. Quill*

      I tore the entire butt off my pants falling down a mountain on a school trip. We’re talking like entire pocket came off, postcard sized hole.

      Then I had to walk all the way back to where we were staying like that… Everyone in that small mountain village has now seen that I wear light pink bikini cut panties.

    9. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I once had a meeting with representatives of our most important vendor. I had been at the table talking to these people for around 45 minutes when I slipped out to use the restroom. When I went to push up my sleeves at the sink, I realized my blouse was inside out. I had been sitting at a table with my boss, her boss, his boss, and several VIP’s from the vendor, and my blouse had been inside out the entire time, and nobody said a word!

      1. German Girl*

        Yeah, that happened to me, too, except it was a more casual office so I was wearing my pullover inside out.

    10. Urdnot Bakara*

      I realized at the end of our biggest event of the year that my favorite work pants had a huge hole on the front in the crotch area. No one said anything to me so hopefully it wasn’t noticeable and I wasn’t like, flashing bright pink underwear to all 2000 attendees.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I have a fear of this. I almost always try to wear underwear that matches the pants.
        So, black panties and black pants, beige with tan, blue with blue, etc.

    11. Goldfinch*

      I used to keep a tie-belted cardigan on the back of my office chair, for days when the A/C was insane (so, every day). I once lost track of all my layers while fumbling in the bathroom stall, and ended up dipping over half the belt into the toilet. I had to carry the dripping belt to the sink, rinse it for fifty years, and then stick it in an old grocery bag until I could get it home and run it through the wash a thousand times.

      The cardigan is retired and has been replaced with a button-up version.

      1. A Poster Has No Name*

        I had a long maxi skirt on one day and didn’t pull it all the way up in the back and basically peed all over it. Spent a good long time at the sink rinsing it.

        Thankfully it was a black skirt.

    12. juliebulie*

      Long, long ago, while visiting a friend in Chicago who didn’t have a car…

      We took the el to a bus stop, or something like that… I just remember we were seated for a while and then kinda far from her place. We had to walk to the next stop, and with each step, I could feel my pantyhose slipping down, down, down. (Support hose are the WORST.)

      There weren’t any other people at the bus stop at that moment, so I hid behind the bench and pulled my hose up. (Wondering if anyone in the large apartment building across the street was looking.) That was a mistake – I should have taken them off, because they were even worse-behaved after we got off the next bus. Next thing I knew, they were below my knees. Luckily my dress was a little longer, so even though I was walking funny by the time we got to our destination (with a restroom), hopefully at least no one could see the crotch of the hose.

      This was in 1995, btw… I haven’t worn hose since 2002.

      Also: A few years ago I went to a Six Flags park where I sweated like crazy. Thanks to the particular type of fabric of my shorts, it looked as though I had wet myself. I had to buy new pants at a gift shop. These were longer and warmer, but at least it didn’t look like pee.

      1. juliebulie*

        I should mention, the pantyhose thing was work-related. My friend was a trainer and we were going to a gig. (The Six Flags thing was not technically work-related, but roller coasters are essential for my mental health.)

    13. Former Govt Contractor*

      I have two, both while working at Very Conservative Law Firm. On my way up the scale I split my pencil skirt right up the back. Dashed out to the nearest clothing store to replace my skirt without anyone figuring out what happened, which wasn’t easy since it was lime green. Then years later on my way back down the scale, I was in the main lobby of our huge upscale office tower talking to a male coworker when my slip, true to its name, slipped right off my hips and fell in a heap at my feet. I stepped out of it and picked it up quickly, he either didn’t notice or acted like he didn’t.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I’ve lost some weight and I have a slip that’s a bit old and its elastic is failing. This is a bad combination. Yesterday I was walking down the hall and it fell right off. Luckily, no one was around. I scooped it up and headed right for the bathroom to put it back on.

    14. Anona*

      One time before a meeting, I was chewing my pen and it exploded in my mouth. My teeth were blue. I had to scrub my mouth out with soap.

      1. Lalaith*

        This happened to my 7th grade math teacher once while we were in class. He tried to wipe his tongue on a carpet sample! >_<

        (He had a carpet sample because we were doing a house-designing project)

      2. Jaydee*

        I have strict requirements for the types of pens I will buy/use to prevent just this sort of thing from happening. Because of past experiences. Plural.

    15. magnusarchivist*

      I was once walking back from lunch with coworkers when a random woman rushed up very close behind me on a busy city street and whispered to me that the zipper teeth had pulled apart on the back of my skirt. The old, worn out zipper was gaping open between the hook and eye at the waistband and the bottom of the zipper. The entire street — and any colleagues behind me — could most definitely see a lot of my brightly colored underwear. I immediately took off my jacket, tied it around my waist, began the long, hard work of convincing myself that the coworkers behind me hadn’t noticed. (If they had, they would have discreetly said something, right? Right?)

      Fixed it when I got back to the office but the skirt went in the bin at the end of the day.

    16. JaneB*

      I interviewed for and got my current job with the inner leg seam of the right leg of my pants held together with kids sticking plasters because they were the only thing I could find that was sticky after a freak train seat incident led to the failure of the seam…

    17. Uniform mishap*

      I was in the middle of an airfield, helping with a demonstration when the crotch of my trousers ripped. Discretely mentioned it to the only woman there I trusted to not blab about it who assured me it wasn’t visible. Spent the rest of the day (mostly lectures thankfully) sat with my jacket across my lap.

      Nine times out of ten, if I’m kneeling down at work, I feel the floor first to check if it’s clean (or at least dry). Ideally, I try not to kneel at all but I get fizzy feet if I crouch or squat down too long. The tenth time, I don’t have time to check… and I can almost guarantee there is something unidentifiable on the floor. That feeling of your knee getting slowly wet is not something you get used to! And usually results in a uniform change.

      1. Zephy*

        I used to work at an animal shelter. Kneeling in something was a weekly occurrence. Usually, I choose to believe, the floor was wet because it was recently mopped. I couldn’t really do anything about it at the time, though – never had the foresight to keep a spare pair of pants at work, and home was too far to go and change.

    18. Amber Rose*

      Not me, but my boss now keeps two extra pairs of pants in her office after tearing holes in the ones she was wearing during meetings with suppliers on three separate occasions.

    19. Mortified*

      I was once working in a 24 hour bar at an airport when my pants ripped while picking up some dropped coffee lids. And not at the back either, all along an inside seam. Before 7 am, when our office with replacement uniforms wouldn’t be open till after 9. I had to wear an apron over my pants until they opened, and when they had none in my size, they had to send me in a taxi to a shop in the nearby town to buy pants (they were required to provide a uniform). I basically told my coworkers I was staying in the back to wash dishes until I could get things sorted…

    20. Parenthetically*

      Have totally had that happen at work and was able to fix the split with the STAPLER of all things, which lasted long enough for me to make it to the end of the day and actually mend them!

    21. Anonanon doo doo doo doo doo*

      At the end of the school day I thought I heard my pants rip. I discreetly felt behind me, but didn’t feel anything. So I cheerfully head to the bus, passing lots of kids, and sit on the metal bench. Which is when I realized that yes, indeed my pants were ripped because my leg was now exposed against the cold metal! I very coolly wrapped my raincoat around my waist and pretended nothing was wrong. None of the kids acted weird, so maybe they didn’t notice!

    22. WKRP*

      Same scenario, different clothing. I was in the bathroom and preparing to leave. Leaned over to pull up my tights and the zipper on the back of my dress popped open, leaving my entire middle back exposed. I was able to side skulk along the wall back to my desk, where I was able to put on my jacket, which JUST covered the exposed area.

      Worse still, I had a tour to give to a group of people and couldn’t run out to fix the situation until after it was over. I spent the whole tour obsessively checking my back with my hand.

      Then ran to the department store down the street (super lucky!) and bought an entirely new dress. Nothing like being potentially exposed on a NYC street.

    23. Not A Real Accountant*

      Well, I wore my usual trousers to work all work all week (until today; we’re allowed jeans on friday) and didn’t notice the rip in the thigh until I put them in the laundry basket last night! It’s high up on the inner thigh (hooray for friction, my trousers would last so much longer otherwise) so I don’t think anyone saw especially since I’ve been wearing my poncho (weather’s cooling down so the office is getting colder)… No one said anything so I will continue to believe no one saw anything!

      Also during the summer, I was running a trail race, tripped on a rock and felt my tights rip over my butt. Careful patting ensured that my butt was still covered by my underwear (luckily I was wearing underwear!). Since I’m a slow runner, I was part of the early start, so most of the other participants passed me… and by the time I finished that rip got extended from waistband to knee! I guess the amount of mud prevented any comments and sights better left unseen. :P

    24. WardrobeMalfunctionAnon*

      Going anon for this one.

      Let’s just say that endometriosis can definitely make it a good idea to keep a black cardigan around at work for sometimes-necessary fashion statements. (Thank all the goddesses I finally found a doctor who believed and is willing to treat me.)

    25. !*

      I love how everyone on this board rushes in to make others not feel so embarrassed after a completely normal, human mishap! I’ve had the zipper of my skirt blow out and my boss had to fix it for me (had nothing to cover it with and only discovered it while coming out of the subway in NYC). I’ve had the Aunt Flo accident, many pantyhose incidents, and even a moth try to take up residence in my hair, again on the train to work. I now drive my own car to work, don’t wear pantyhose, am well into menopause, and don’t wear skirts with zippers. :)

    26. Imprudence*

      I once turned up on a client site with one black shoe and one navy one. They were identical styles, but not…. identical. Curiously, when I got hone I found a similar pair — except the colours were the other way round.

    27. Elizabeth West*

      At one job, the faucet in the bathroom sink had very high water pressure so you had to be careful when you turned the handle or it would blast out into the shallow sink and splash everywhere. Once, I was in a hurry and I forgot about that.

      When I turned it on, the water shot out, ricocheted off the sink, and right onto my crotch. I did my best to dry it with paper towels, but for the rest of the afternoon, it looked like I’d wet my pants. >_<

      1. Gazebo Slayer*

        Oh nooooo, I’m so sorry!

        My last apartment had a sink like that. It made dishwashing super messy. (My current apartment also makes dishwashing messy, but that’s because the sink is really tiny.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          LOL it was embarrassing, but other people knew about the sink so they didn’t tease me too much!

    28. Deloris Van Cartier*

      I was walking to a job interview and totally wiped out. The sidewalk was so uneven and even though I was wearing flats, I was probably too caught up in my own thoughts to notice. Of course everyone from the business in front of the wacky sidewalk had to come out to tell me that it happens all the time. I shove all of my stuff back in my bag because it had fallen on the group and try and regroup. As I’m walking there, I can feel blood on my clothes and my arm was killing me. Luckily when I arrived, I had some hand sanitizer to try and wipe the dirt off me and get myself ready. The only reason it even came out was because I couldn’t find my notebook with my questions and I felt like if I didn’t explain, they would think I was super disorganized. I ended up getting the job so I guess it all worked out! My mom had an interview with a black eye and broken wrist so this must be a curse or something that was put upon my family many years ago!

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        Yikes! I fell outside once on my way home from work, right in the middle of an intersection, and with a large crowd of onlookers behind me. I didn’t get as banged up as you did, but I remember thinking, “Wow – I’m on the ground now,” and hearing a woman behind me shouting, “ARE YOU OKAY?!”

        I was planning to try to play it off as if no one could have possibly seen it, but how could you when my little red stockinged legs were in the air, cars were swerving around me, and women were calling me out? Lol. I was mortified at the time, but I can laugh at it now. (And to this day, I still don’t know how I fell when I was wearing flats and the sidewalk was not slippery.)

        1. Lalaith*

          Oh yes, I have done this too. Took a dive right in the middle of an NYC crosswalk. PSA: offering help to someone in such a situation is kind, but if they are already pushing themselves up off the ground, please don’t try to haul them up by one of the arms they’re using to push themselves with :-P

          I’ve also slipped on ice a few times on my way to work. Scraped each of my knees once and had to clean up the blood when I got to the office, then patch it up with whatever first aid supplies they had handy. Thank goodness for dark pants!

    29. Nope, not today*

      Worked in a restaurant as a hostess, uniform of white shirt, black skirt, black tights. Wearing a shorter black skirt one day. Climbed into a booth to wipe down the table (it was a 6 top, so you couldn’t reach the whole table without getting into it), getting back out I split my skirt up the back – there had been a small slit at the back seam, which was suddenly MUCH larger lol. Fixed it with a stapler to get through the shift.

      Another time I was squeezing between a table and a booth, and the booths had coat hooks on the dividers between the benches of separate tables, which were at about chest level….button up shirt snagged on a coat hook, buttons popped off everywhere, fully exposed to the restaurant. That was only about the 4th worst thing that happened that day (that day goes down in my personal history as the absolute worst day at work ever!)

    30. Donkey Hotey*

      Right there with you. My jeans split at the crotch and ripped backward, right along the bottom of my… bottom. Thankfully, I’ve always kept a hoodie at my desk. Tied that around my waist for the rest of the day.
      So yeah, not a weirdo (at least in this respect.)

    31. JustaTech*

      I was at one of our sites I’d never visited before for an important meeting with some government people. Just before lunch I feel the button on my pants just randomly pop off. That’s annoying, but whatever, there’s a hook as well. Then I go to the bathroom after lunch and discover that one whole side of the zipper had ripped out as well.
      It was the first time in my life I’d bothered to match my underwear to my pants, and I was able to just untuck my shirt to be sure I was covered.
      I was *so* glad our whole group had agreed to take time to change clothes before catching our flight!

      Moral of the story, those pants were $5 for a reason.

    32. Doug Judy*

      Once I got all the way to work and noticed in the elevator I was wearing two totally different shoes. Both heals but one was a black stiletto and one was a navy block heal. I had left the house in a rush and put on whatever pair of shoes were closest. And I had injured my back earlier in the week so my gait had been off for a few days, which is why I didn’t notice I was waking weird. That’s was an awkward day.

    33. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I was about ready for work and decided to slip on my slippers to take out the trash instead of putting on my regular high heels. I was getting out the car at work when I noticed that I had grabbed my purse and went to work, still in slippers instead of heels. At that time I didn’t have a spare pair of shoes of any kind in my car or office so had no choice but to wear slippers. Luckily I sit at a desk all day (except for breaks). I have learned to keep a spare pair of shoes (although not heels), a t-shirt, a pair of underwear, athletic-style pants (not yoga pants) and a cardigan in my car for all kinds of emergencies; black works best for all because it’ll usually go with whatever else I’m wearing and can sometimes pass as more “formal”.

      I’ve had birds crap on me as I walked to/from my car
      Shoe heel breaks
      Spilled coffee/food all over myself
      Ripped seam/busted zipper/popped button
      Menstrual catastrophe

    34. Daisy Avalin*

      Yup!! Last Sunday, as I started putting out the morning papers at the petrol station, I crouched to do the bottom row and, riiiiiiiip! Crotchless trousers & bright pink knickers on show with an hour of my shift to go!! Luckily I’d walked down to work in a pair of dark grey jogging bottoms, so I switched into them and according to a co-worker who came in to get fuel it wasn’t obvious that I wasn’t wearing uniform trousers so all is good ( I did warn the asst manager & later the store manager in case the higher-ups spot it and complain).

      Think I’m going to get a pair of trousers to keep at work in case this happens again, since a lot of my job requires bending/stretching/twisting and I expect it to happen at some point again.

    35. Auntie Social*

      I was looking in the vintage bookstore section of a dicey part of town. Not a lot of people on the block. Heard footsteps behind me—I sped up, they sped up. Got my keys out of my purse, hoping that I’d either make it to my car, get close enough to hit the alarm, or use the keys as a weapon like they teach you. Feel a hand on my shoulder, I spin around and yell really loud “WHAT DO YOU WANT!!” And it’s a priest. Who quietly tells me my skirt zipper is working its way down on own.

    36. Triumphant Fox*

      I recently had my zipper split on my dress at a black tie event and just had to walk up to my room and change into a new dress in the interim. I was hunched over to fix my shoe and the pressure was just too much. It was so embarrassing, but I try to act like it doesn’t matter and move on. At the after party I had a ton of compliments on that dress and no one mentioned anything, so you know.

    37. Curmudgeon in California*

      I keep two spare pair of underwear plus sanitary pads at work. I keep spare clothes at work. I keep sanitary pads in my car. I am looking at adding a mending kit to my work stash. I’ve had too many wardrobe failures and potty problems not to.

    38. Joel Davis*

      Several years ago, I was walking to work and walked too close to a standpipe connection (those hookups for fire hoses that are often on the outside of large buildings) that had a long jagged screw holding the cover on. The edge of the screw caught my pants and I ripped a hole from my shin to about four inches from the waist of my pants. This was on the way to work and I couldn’t go home to get new pants nor could I just walk around like that all day. I sat at my desk and didn’t move for a few hours until a coworker got me a pair of sweatpants.

    39. Princesa Zelda*

      When I was about 19, I was working a shift in a thin light blue-and-white uniform when my period started off-schedule. It was an hour before my scheduled break and we were short-staffed, so I wishful-thought that I could somehow manage until then. Once I made it to a restroom, I had clearly bled through my underwear and had stained the inside of the crotch area. I spent the rest of the day walking without moving my thighs. It was awkward! I’m forever grateful that job had laundry service for uniforms so I just dropped it in the chute after and tried to forget it ever happened.

    40. Nita*

      I’ve split my pants at work too, but thankfully the rip was too low to flash anything embarrassing – it just looked like the jeans tried to turn into shorts, but gave up halfway.

      My shoes, now… I still feel embarrassed about that one. I had a very nice pair of steel-toe boots that lasted almost 11 years before I lost them in a house move. When I realized they’re missing, I turned all my stuff upside down looking for them, couldn’t find them, and settled for wearing a much heavier spare pair. Somehow, my favorite boots did turn up three months later, and I happily put them on and headed out to a construction site. The meeting went fine, the trip back to the office went fine, and then, just as I was going up the subway stairs, rrrrip! And one sole came halfway off. And just as I got off the elevator on my floor, rrrrip! Went the other sole. I had to hobble to my seat, soles flapping loudly and very obviously, past an open conference room. I’d realized too late that the company president, my department head, and a couple senior VPs were in that room and they could all see me. All I could do was put on my best poker face and keep clomping over to my desk as if everything’s fine.

    41. Duffy*

      One day, I had an all day work meeting and I wore jeans and a short top. The zipper on the jeans broke do there was no way of closing. The button at the top also broke.

      So you know how people tie sweaters around their waist. I did too but put the long part in front. I looked strange that day!

    42. NB*

      Have you read Girl Walks Into a Bar by Rachel Dratch? She tells a pretty good pants-splitting story. Tina Fey came to her rescue.

    43. Office Gumby*

      I deliberately keep a needle and thread in my desk drawer at work for just such an emergency.

      I had a piece of clothing rip on me once, only it was a shirt, and it was the back seam of a sleeve. I was reduced to first taping, then stapling the seam shut to make it through the day. No, I didn’t have a cardy or anything useful like that, as it was the middle of summer.

      Since then, needle and thread kept readily on hand. Even keep a small sewing kit in my car.

  27. Panda*

    I’m flying out to Las Vegas on Monday for training and a summit on a new software system my department is implementing this fall. Do I need to dress super professionally for this?

    My work is pretty informal (jeans, nice top, sneakers or fancy shoes and others dressing in suits and business attire). I know I’ll be doing a lot of walking, so I’d rather wear sneakers than flats. Are nice pants and a nice top, but more casual ok?

    I’ve only gone to church and personal seminars and conferences where the attire is pretty casual (but not sloppy).

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I would lean in favor of slightly more dressed up, because it’s never wrong to look more professional than necessary – not full suit or anything, just upmarket business casual? Trousers and nice top + not sneakers?

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve found that jeans, boots, and a professional top will work in most training situations. If they expect a more formal attire then they will make sure you are aware of the dress code. The last time I had a conference in Vegas I made the mistake of wearing “cute” sneakers instead of real walking sneakers. My feet were killing me by the end of the week. So if you are going to a huge conference center, then you should definitely plan to wear sneakers, and maybe bring a nicer pair of shoes in case you do a happy hour or other networking event.

    3. Goldfinch*

      I’d wear jeans, comfortable flat booties, and layered tops. One professional blouse-type piece, and a thin open blazer over it. It will look professional enough, and provide adequate layering options for conference rooms (always a toss up, temperature-wise).

    4. CAA*

      Can you find photos from similar events on the company’s website and see what people are wearing in those? I suspect your jeans and sneakers will be fine, but do bring a sweater or blazer because Vegas conference rooms are always freezing.

      Outside the conference center you’ll see everything from super casual to super dressy, so whatever you normally wear on your own time is fine for that.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      If you don’t wear the sneakers to the training, wear them to the training and change there.
      Vegas is a mirage – everything feels like it should be walking distance and it’s a lie.

    6. Camera Shy*

      Wear your sneakers walking, and change into flats at the venue!

      I agree – dress it up a bit more. Blazer, nice shirt, and pants.

    7. WhoKnows*

      Is this an annual type of summit/training? I would try googling for pictures (they may have a website with photos of previous years) and you can get an idea from there.

      1. QueryingtheMassesforHelp*

        I second this. Some software conferences it’s okay to wear nice (and clean) jeans with a nice top and sweater and other conferences (depending on your role) I’ve seen people wear blazers. I like to keep in mind when I pick clothes, that I’m representing my company and my company’s brand when I attend these conferences. I will admit though, when attending in depth developer training conferences I do roll up in a nice hoodie and jeans. It gets really cold in the conference rooms and your laptop only generates so much heat.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Business casual.
      I’d opt for black or dark slacks and a top + comfortable flats. Maybe consider a casual blazer/jacket or dress cardigan if it’s cold.

      I don’t find sneakers professional enough, but you know, if you really need them due to foot issues, ok. You can find black “sneaker like” shoes, which I’ve worn for trade shows.

  28. Lieutenant Jingles*

    I got a really nice email today – a job interview offer from an application I made months! It was really morale boosting. Alas, I already signed on with another company. I won’t bother trying to interview to “test the waters”, it’s being a total dick to all involved, and the industry I work in is so small news like this very easily goes around.
    Man, it’s like buses, you wait for hours and then 2 comes along.

  29. secret chart*

    It’s happened. I now have to take 10-15 minutes to breathe and compose myself before replying to one of my coworker’s emails, so I don’t escalate the nastiness.

    Why is it so hard and so rough to be the adult in the room?

    1. Brownie*

      All the sympathy. The only thing sometimes that stops me from going off the deep end and yelling at one specific coworker is that I value my reputation in the office as the calm, collected, always-capable person too much to put that in jeopardy. It is so incredibly hard to not respond in kind to their nastiness and incompetence, but remember it makes them look so much worse if you remain a shining paragon of politeness and civility when they grab a shovel and start flinging barnyard waste.

      1. secret chart*

        Thanks, I will keep in mind. There are other people on these email chains most of the time, and other people on the calls, so maybe I’ll keep in mind that I am performing for the audience, not the person I’m talking to?

        In school, I got the reputation as “calm, collected, always-capable” so much, that someone once asked me if I ever shouted. I guess life doesn’t change.

        1. Brownie*

          Yup, it’s performing to the audience which hopefully includes this person’s manager. My manager confided in me a couple weeks ago that because I did all my rise-above-the-barnyard stuff via email for a couple issues it gave him written proof that my coworker was not doing his job which will now show up in said coworker’s annual review and maybe even a PIP.

          Plus others outside my team who’re on those email threads with the bad coworker see how much I’m having to deal with. As a result of that I’m getting a lot of leeway and sympathy from them, even on unrelated projects, which lets me get them a better product because now I have the wiggle room to do things right instead of rushed. Then my reputation gets even better as they gush to my manager about the deliverable, so it ends up as a win for me. Admittedly it’s still really hard not to go for the quick satisfaction of yelling at them on egregious things though.

      2. Shirley Keeldar*

        Yeah, it’s painful! I like to translate poisonously politely business speak into what I’m REALLY thinking (sometimes out loud, but I work at home and can get away with this. My only coworkers have fur and don’t mind.)

        “Just fyi [because you need things spelled out to the letter, dimwit], the spouts need to be in white chocolate, not dark. See below for the specs, which have been approved. [This has been covered already, and if you weren’t an incompetent dodo, you’d know.] Per Anastasia [I’m not taking any flak for this, this is the big boss’s idea, as you are well aware], the decorations must be in caramel, not nougat. Thanks so much! [eat excrement and die!]

    2. Master Bean Counter*

      Because typing out, If you had read my earlier email or done what i asked in the first place I wouldn’t have to be cleaning this up now, is really satisfying.

      1. secret chart*

        Unfortunately in this case, the coworker does things like tell me “just read the e-mail for what I already told you” when there’s nothing in there about it at all.

    3. The Meow*

      I hear you. I have had many fantasies of sending glitter bombs or anonymous Why You Suck lists to difficult coworkers. But this is an opportunity to demonstrate how awesome you are (and how crappy they are) by remaining calm and professional even under aggravation.

    4. Roy G. Biv*

      If it makes you feel any better, I guarantee many of your coworkers know and value your calm, cool adultness, and also know your other coworker is a piece of work. It’s just that we tend not to talk about it at work because it is work, not junior high school.

  30. Don’t get salty*

    I have a dilemma: I recently achieved a hard-won promotion and I also switched managers around the same time. I had gotten used to receiving calls from different people in my organization congratulating me on it. However, I got one call in particular from my previous manager telling me (among other things) that I didn’t deserve it, and that the reason the committee awarded it to me was because this previous manager begged them to do it, which wouldn’t make the committee look very good if they did that.

    Not only was I confused by this call, but it made me very angry. What’s the point of saying this; there’s nothing that can be done to take it away and this person is no longer my current manager either, so what do they care? Not once did I hear a congratulations, even though this person gave me the impression in the past that they really wanted to help me advance. I guess my dilemma is that I really don’t want to have anything else to do with this person, which will be pretty easy as they no longer manage me, but this person is in my immediate past as a direct manager and will likely be contacted for a reference when I apply for upcoming positions.

    1. Open Office Hell*

      Wow, what an unkind thing for that person to say. Honestly, they sound like you should disregard them because they’re just trying to rattle / undermine you – so beyond the pale that they don’t seem reasonable. Is there someone else you can ask for a more honest assessment?

      1. Don’t get salty*

        My current manager is really on my side, and highly praises me, but hasn’t been my direct manager for long. I have several managers in my past that I can ask for an honest assessment, some who have already been promoted to top management. I almost want to call them and let them know in a subtle way how this person acts (b/c this past manager has those ambitions), but I’d be delusional.

    2. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I feel like they’re trying to take credit for your success and make you feel beholden to them. It’s gross, and you are completely justified in not interacting with them anymore unless you have to.

    3. Not A Manager*

      Up until this conversation, you thought that they “really wanted to help you advance.” I wonder if this current conversation is actually consistent with that. If so, maybe you can safely use them as a reference in the future.

      Is there any possibility at all that you misinterpreted their intent? I’m not sure I follow all the details, but it sounds like they said that they are the reason you got this job, because they lobbied so hard for you. What you’re hearing as “you completely didn’t deserve this job” might have been said as a way to underscore that they went to bat for you.

      While that’s in fact completely undermining and gross, they actually might not have meant it to be that way. They might have meant something like “I value you and your career so much that I am willing to recommend you even for jobs that are a real stretch for you.”

      If you think this is a possibility, I’d err on the side of interacting with them as if it were true. Keep them in the loop about your career just as you would any past manager or mentor, have a catch-up coffee every now and then, etc. Behave as if you trust their goodwill, without in any way making yourself vulnerable or relying on it.

      Then, in the future, if you think you have a reason to consider this person for a reference, that will still be an option and you won’t have burned a bridge.

      1. Don’t get salty*

        That’s a very generous interpretation and I’m glad you suggested it. It might have been a way to communicate support, but one of the interviewers already told me that my selection was a “unanimous“ yes, and that my interview sealed it. On top of that, I’ve already been performing the duties of this new position (and getting accolades) for the past four years. The promotion was just a matter of my pay matching my duties.

        This person made comments about my new supervisor too, but I’ll definitely act as though I trust this person‘s goodwill. I might have to rely on it one day.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      So the person who recommended you said you don’t deserve it.
      They said one thing then they said the opposite. This means one of the statements is a lie.

      In order to tell interviewers that you did not deserve this promotion they will have to explain why they recommended you. Think about this. The interviewer is going to be sitting there saying…. “So. Do you often recommend people for promotion that you don’t think deserve it?”

      What I would do, if I got stuck using this person as a reference I would be sure to mention that they recommended me for a promotion. This could cut things off before things even start.

      Honestly, if this is how this person handles things I suspect by the time you leave they will be long gone.

      1. Don’t get salty*

        That’s a great, great thought! I have nothing to fear; all I have to do is to take this person’s own words, that they strongly advocated for my promotion, to the interview committee. If it’s true, and the committee verifies it, then anything this person says to the contrary about my qualifications would be garbage. Thank you so much!

  31. Open Office Hell*

    UGH my coworker in an open office says she “can’t wear headphones” because they make her anxious and “claustrophobic,” which sounds to me like an accommodation request meaning I shouldn’t push back. But it is NOT OKAY to have your computer binging with every email you get, or your music audibly playing, in an open office!!! I am very sensitive to these kinds of little noises all day long and it makes me super irritable. Everytime she forgets to mute her computer I politely ask her to do it. But what I really want to do is ask if she has honestly tried all the different types of headphone options out there, because I feel certain that one would work for her if she wanted.

    1. JimmyJab*

      That sounds very annoying. I’d ask her to change the settings on her computer so the sound is automatically muted – no one at my office cube farm would tolerate computer noises like that. I have mine muted!

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I have asked for about this, she says she forgets after she needs to watch advertising videos, which is part of her job function on the sales team. She is also in long sales meetings and leaves the computer volume on while she’s gone.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Then she needs to stop forgetting.

          This is basic open office etiquette – you do not subject your coworkers to your machine sounds. The only things that are more basic than this is ‘don’t do conference calls on speakerphone’ and ‘don’t yell potentially offensive words’.

          You’ve had the big picture talk and set the boundary, which is a reasonable and common and expected boundary. Keep reminding her of it, over and over, until she does remember. Her future office mates will thank you.

          I hate headphones myself, but I never have my computer with sound on in the office.

        2. Kes*

          You should ask her to change the notification settings on her email program to turn off sound notifications. I always turn that off since it drives ME nuts to hear notification sounds all the time

          1. Open Office Hell**

            That is a good point, I didn’t think about it but I assume that’s just a setting you can change – she’s probably not even using the chimes for anything. Thanks (and to others who made the suggestion, and for Sloan who is my office buddy haha).

    2. CatCat*

      Don’t worry about the headphone thing. If she isn’t going to wear them, she isn’t going to wear them. That’s not the problem. Her playing music and having sounds on her computer is the problem.

      “Hey Coworker, please don’t play music using speakers in our shared work space. It’s very distracting.”

      “Hey Coworker, let me show you have to permanently mute your computer so it stops making all those noises. You may not realize, but those noises are very distracting and irritating in this open work space. They should be permanently muted.”

      If she persists, escalate it to your manager.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Yes, this. The fact that she can’t wear headphones is a thing that needs accommodated for situations like required computer based training and possibly important meeting reminders, but it doesn’t give her the right to play music to the open office or have every alert on her computer chime.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      I have sensory issues (related to being on the autism spectrum) *and* a pointy head and so far every set of headphones I’ve ever tried is physically painful. Sensory annoyance is no less real that auditory annoyance, thanks.

      But my computer doesn’t ping all the time, either.

      1. Open Office Hell*

        Thank you for responding because I really need insight on this! The ear bud kind are no good either? Note that she did not say she has a sensory issue (although she might, and obviously it would be inappropriate for me to expect her to share that) she expressed it in more of a mental health sense like they make her feel closed in and anxious.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          Nope. Still agonizing. I have weirdly small ear canals (the doctor uses the kids’ ear cones on me).

          I think we tend to forget that since a particular thing is less annoying *for us*, that doesn’t mean it’s less annoying *for everyone*. These are actually separate but equivalent sensitivities; we just don’t all share them equally.

          1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

            As someone who also has trouble with most headphones, the ones that work for me are earbuds with ear hooks. (I can’t use over-the-head ones because I wear a brimmed hat, and earbuds tend to fall right out of my ears.) I have no idea if that would work for you or not (or if you are even interested in trying new types of headphones at this point), but if you are in the market for trying new types of headphones and haven’t tried those before, I’ve had good luck with them compared to other types.

        2. Dust Bunny*

          I could see them making somebody feel closed in and anxious, too. They don’t do that to me, but . . . I don’t like holding hands, for instance, because I feel too tied down, so I guess that’s sort of the same thing but with a different particular trigger.

        3. Jules the 3rd*

          Don’t get too focused on *how* she solves the problem. Focus on ‘hey, your computer sounds are still a problem, please fix it.’

          1. Open Office Hell**

            Thank you, and others who made this point. You’re right, I don’t care if she ever wears headphones, I just need the noise and music to stop, so I’ll try to approach it that way from now on. Her current solution is that she asked the other people in the office if it bothers them, and they said it didn’t, so it must be fine – I will keep trying to patiently find a solution that works for everyone.

            1. Close Bracket*

              she asked the other people in the office if it bothers them, and they said it didn’t, so it must be fine

              Push back on that. It’s bothering you, so it’s not fine. The solution that works for everyone is that she turns off the email pings and other notifications.

              1. Open Office Hell**

                yeah I think if that was fixed, I could stomach the soft music playing a lot better (but I still hate the music too)

                1. valentine*

                  When she’s gone, set her Windows to No Sounds. It will disable any alerts without affecting the audio on her videos (or music, alas).

        4. TooTiredToThink*

          Could it be because she needs to hear the background noises to feel safe? If she’s wearing headphones she can’t hear if someone is coming up from behind her? Would using headphones but turning around or putting up mirrors help? Or is it the actual pressure of the headphones causing an issue?

          Headphones give me ear infections if I wear them too long – whether its the over the ear kind or earbuds. I can wear them for short bursts of time but if I wear them more than say 4 hours a day and several days in a row? I will have an ear infection shortly afterwards. People don’t believe me because they can’t imagine that and I’ll get all sorts of advice as to “well have you tried this? have you tried that?” so I could see me just straight up lying and saying they cause me claustrophobia to stop getting all the advice.

          You should be able to help her change her email settings so that her emails don’t ding upon arrival – so that should solve that particular issue. As for music and the videos she has to watch; please tell her that its causing work issues for you. She probably doesn’t want to hear the “have you tried this and have you tried that?” cause if she’s heard it all before; she’s heard it all before; but maybe a “How can we work together to make the environment work for both of us?”

          1. Open Office Hell**

            I think she likes listening to music because it brightens her day, which I totally understand. She thinks playing it very softly will solve my problem, but sadly I have acute hearing. I doubt she’s attached to the chimes / notifications – so others are correct that maybe I can get her to change that setting entirely!

            1. LizB*

              Oof, for me, sounds at very low volume are way more distracting than at an average volume. It’s like whispering vs talking – I can tune out my coworkers chatting at a regular volume all day, but the second one of them starts whispering or lowers their voice, all my brain wants to do is strain to listen to what they’re saying. My sympathies.

              1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

                I am also miserable with low-volume music playing. My brain will immediately start trying to pay attention to it rather than what I’m supposed to be doing if it’s new music. The only music I can listen to while concentrating is something I’ve heard many times before. I suppose if we had a radio station with low rotation of songs playing I’d be used to it in a week or so, but in reality I find background music about the most concentration-destroying thing in the world. (I use a limited mp3 playlist of things I am used to for music while working rather than a streaming service because of this.)

              2. Open Office Hell*

                Yeah I’m always subconsciously straining to identify the song. However I recognize that’s arguably kind of a “me problem.”

        5. Annonno Today*

          It’s really not about the headphone thing, tho…. in an open work space, everyone needs to keep sounds OFF. If she has to watch sales videos, can she take her laptop to a conference room?

        6. LabTechNoMore*

          This headphone anxiety thing happens to me, actually. (Er not officially diagnosed or anything, I’ve always just seen it as a weird quirk.) I’ve never told anyone because, well, it sounds weird and made-up, but sometimes I need to take them off or I’ll start hyperventilating and can’t catch my breath.

          It’s been a while since this has happened, but somehow blocking out my own hearing with music makes me self-conscious about any noises I might be making without realizing it (breathing too loudly, chair squeaking, stomach rumbling), which sort of sets off a cycling of trying to regulate my breathing to be more quiet, until the next thing I know I’m out of breath. I definitely understand the claustrophobic feeling too.

          With all that said, it’d never occur to me to play music without headphones, especially with others around. (Maybe softly? But even then, I’d be worried about others hearing it.) But, these weird headphone anxiety attacks only happen rarely for me, so it’s never been a real problem for me personally.

          1. Open Office Hell**

            I genuinely do believe that headphones make her uncomfortable, possibly even in a way that is diagnosable, so I’m trying not to be a jerk about it. I don’t want to be That Person who is like … have you tried just listening with just one ear bud (which is what I like to do, so I can hear coworkers sneaking up on me), have you tried this type, that type, etc. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt that she has tried all options or she wouldn’t be doing this.

            However, I don’t know if that means she automatically gets to play her music at her desk out loud. Particularly when she forgets to turn it off when she leaves the room. So far, the solution is that I wear both my headphones 100% of the time :P I feel like a real jerk asking her not to do it, particularly since I’ve already asked multiple times.

            1. LabTechNoMore*

              Honestly, I don’t think you’re being unreasonable to ask her not to play music aloud. If headphones (or one-bud) are a problem, and playing it softly is still too loud, the only other option is no music. Then again, it’s very possible that my perspective of this headphone thing being a rare occurrence for me is shading my views.

              Good luck, whatever ends up happening!

            2. Alice*

              That she can’t wear headphones, together with the fact that she doesn’t have her own office, means that SHE SHOULDN’T PLAY MUSIC!

      2. Jaid*

        I have a rest on the ears, band behind the neck, pair of Knivo headphones. Bluetooth only, though.

        Kinivo BTH240

    4. Lemon Squeezy*

      I had a personal experience that for a long while made me very uncomfortable to not hear my environment. I ended up getting a set of bone conducting headphones and that helped the nervousness while listening to music a lot. (And therapy. Thanks therapy! I can even wear earbuds again.)

      Here’s the thing–it’s not your job to decide how she solves the problem. It’s just your responsibility to point out that her actions are affecting your work. “Hey, I know it’s not your intention, but with the open office setup, when you play music it really interferes with my work.” Is there a space she can watch her videos in?

      1. Open Office Hell**

        Yeah, I felt uncomfortable pushing her on the different varieties / types of headphones that might be out there, but I was thinking about the behind-the-ear kind and the earbud kind – you’re so right though, that’s not really my role and I’m so glad I didn’t push on it until I asked the readers for advice, because it’s kind of beside the point.

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          I hate earbuds and often have to list to training videos in an open office. I have a pair of over-ear headphones and hold one side up to one ear for the video. it works fine, I keep the volume low (for me) so no one hears out the other side of the headphones, and it’s not as if I’m listening to the symphony so who needs stereo for a training video?

    5. Close Bracket*

      which sounds to me like an accommodation request

      Unless you are HR and she is disclosing a disability, it is not an accommodation request. However, as others have said, it doesn’t matter whether she wears headphones. What matters is that the noises stop happening. Not listening to music is just as viable an option as listening to music through head phones.

      1. Open Office Hell**

        Yeah I just meant obviously I would deal with it differently than just a personal quirk or something, if she has a medical issue. If she had just said “oh I don’t care for them” I would have been firmer.

    7. Holly*

      It’s not an accomodation request – I would stop framing it like that in your mind. If you politely ask her, since she won’t wear headphones, to not play music out loud and to lower the volume, and she doesn’t, I think at that point it might be worth looping in your direct supervisor to work through a solution. Coworkers aren’t responsible for determining what a reasonable accomodation is.

    8. Clementine*

      I don’t like headphones for the same reasons, but that means no music or podcasts or sounds that emanate from my laptop or devices when I am in the office.

  32. Jennifer Strange*

    I work in an open space office. I sometimes (not super frequently, but maybe one or two times a month) sit in on some webinars relevant to my job. The issue I have is A) I have a boss and co-workers who will just start talking without realizing that the person they’re speaking to either isn’t there or is wearing headphones and B) when a person does see I’m wearing headphones they will come up and start talking to me or try to get my attention.

    While I’m never orally participating in these webinars I don’t like to have to miss things in order to take out my headphones and inform the person that I’m not just listening to music/this isn’t something I can pause. While I usually tell my boss/team that I’m planning to watch a webinar they sometimes forget and even so I have other coworkers coming up to me (and I’m not about to make it a practice to email the entire organization every time I’m about to watch a webinar).

    There is limited meeting space at our organization and I can’t justify reserving an entire space just for me. Any thoughts or suggestions? I’ve thought (mostly jokingly) about creating a sign that says “In Webinar – Do Not Distrub) and putting it next to me on the desk.

    1. CatCat*

      Can you put a little sign up on your computer or your desk that says something like, “In a webinar meeting. Please do not disturb.”

    2. Open Office Hell*

      I feel this so hard. I do take my webinars to an open space and just hide in the corner because people canNOT stop bugging me if I am within sight, which I realize doesn’t work for all offices. Any chance you can ask if you can work from home or in someone’s office? (it’s annoying for me not to have access to my own desktop, but if the webinars are essential then it has to take priority).

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        Do you have shared calendars? You can put your webinar session there and then other can see that you are busy. Otherwise, I think a sign would be okay.

        1. Open Office Hell*

          Nothing stops them. They can’t help themselves. If they want to chat / ask a quick question / share a joke, and I am within sight, they literally can’t hold back. I know because they frequently say things like “sorry I know you’re on a webinar right now but – ” or “you’re obviously busy at the moment but – ” I don’t even blame them, I blame the set up.

          2. Snorkmaiden*

            PS do blame them. Absolutely do. This isn’t the setup, it’s behaviour they are choosing.

            1. Open Office Hell**

              I mean, we are packed in at one desk, within direct line of sight of each other, so it’s really irresistible when you have a quick question or comment (I am sometimes guilty myself, is why I am so lenient). We are all trying to redirect to Slack but the only solution for sustained concentration is out of sight, out of mind.

              1. valentine*

                I would use one of those plastic holders you put the sign inside, so you have a physical barrier you can clack down on the desk. I’d also let them hear the calendar reminder chime (and maybe one at the end, or create some other ritual, like coffee post-webinar) to train them, keep my head down over my notes, and close one ear when they interrupt(!), so the other side’s louder and I miss less.

                If there’s a hallway or so much as a corner elsewhere, even a corner of the same room, use it. They’ll still interrupt, at least at first, but soon it’ll be “Open Office Hell*’s in timeout, lol,” possibly an extinction burst of dramatic shushes, then they’ll filter you out when you’re in that space.

                But find out for sure whether you can book a conference room.

          3. CheeryO*

            I have coworkers who do the same thing. Honestly, now I just point to my headphones, mouth “webinar,” and go back to looking at the screen. It’s slightly rude, but not as rude as purposefully interrupting you for something that could wait.

            1. valentine*

              I just point to my headphones, mouth “webinar,” and go back to looking at the screen.
              This is perfectly polite.

    3. Jamie*

      I made a sign for my office door in a former job that said I was in a webinar or conference call and unless something was on fire to send me an email and I’d get back to them when done.

      I had to use clip art with smiley faces so this wouldn’t be read as “unapproachable” because apparently the bosses thought everyone had the emotional range of toddlers being denied the warmth of a mother’s hug if they had to wait.

      I don’t miss that place – but the sign idea still works.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I worked in an open office space for a short time and a neighbor had to make a few phone calls. After 3 minutes, a manager came over and asked her to move into a conference room. I didn’t have a problem with listening to work phone calls, but it apparently was.not.done in that open office space.
      Having music blaring all day would not have been allowed there.

        1. Open Office Hell**

          Hehe I still saw it. Yep, the office culture around ambient sounds really varies, and I think I’m a bit on the extreme end myself of desiring absolute library silence to concentrate, so I’m trying to be more understanding. I feel like my question came out super grouchy, but I genuinely do want to find a solution that works for everybody.

    5. CallofDewey*

      I have a sign on my door with different squares with what I’m doing on it, like “I’m in- knock!” “in webinar” and “out of the building” and a binder clip that I put on the correct square. Helps get my staff to not interrupt me if I’m in a webinar or not panic if they can’t find me.

    6. Annonno Today*

      Can’t you just alert them? “Hey guys, I’ll be on a webinar for the next hour, so email me or hit me up later if you need something.”

    7. Gwen*

      Make the sign! I work in a similar location and several coworkers will tape a little sign that says “In a Webinar!” to the back of their chair. I even have one coworker who strings up caution tape behind her chair when she’s on one.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        There’s somebody’s million-dollar idea–office “caution tape” across cubicle entrances and chairs for various situations: In Webinar. On Conference Call. On Project Under Deadline.

    8. Lemon Squeezy*

      I used to use flags at my cubicle to let people know my interruptability. Green = anything goes. Yellow = work only please. Red – Mission critical only.

      I don’t think a sign is a bad idea, it gives people context.

    9. Witchy Human*

      Can you get much bigger, more obvious headphones?

      Also, the one-finger library shush is rude, but the little yap-yap-yap hand puppet gesture is fine as long as it’s not directed at someone present. Point to the headphone, make that gesture, and make an expression that says “this person is yapping away and I have to listen to them, otherwise I’d love to talk to you.”

      Somehow, the “I’m listening to something” message is less effective than the “someone else is talking” message.

    10. Kes*

      This won’t necessarily totally solve your problem, but if you’re using earbuds you may want to consider getting over-ear headphones which are a lot more visible. At least that way people won’t start talking to you without realizing you’re wearing headphones

    11. Wishing You Well*

      One receptionist has a small machine on the counter that flashes when she’s on the phone. The machine also has a sign asking people to not interrupt her when the light is on. This device might turn on automatically which would be very handy. Maybe this device could be used for computers, too.
      Just a thought.

    12. Persephone Mulberry*

      I would 100% use the sign – maybe even tape it to the edge of your monitor so that it’s that much closer to other people’s eye level?

      For the folks that sit around you that try to catch your eye and start talking, I’d go sign language – tap your headphone/earbud, point at your monitor, maybe even make a “shh” finger – and then break eye contact by not-so-subtly turning your head/body back to your screen.

    13. Reliquary*

      You choose: make the sign, or wear a Webinar Hat.

      (There are actually hats that have dry-erase whiteboard on the front, hats that display a light-up message crawl, and of course your regular run-of-the-mill hat with your custom embroidered message.)

      I’d pick the sign, but who know, you just might be a Webinar Hat person!

  33. Wearing Many Hats*

    I’m the office manager/HR person/AP/IT struggler for my small office. Recently the sales team got a wheel to spin with things they have to do if they lose one of their contests. These consist of things like high fiving another team, wearing a fish hat for an hour, or running around the building in a unicorn mask. There is definitely a vibe of playful shaming happening with these. Another option on the wheel is helping me. While this isn’t the intent, it really feels like my work is being devalued (and frankly I don’t have time to find something for a salesperson to do when they interrupt me in the middle of the day). I approached the sales manager and let him know I felt like the message was that my job was a punishment and he said it was just added to get the sales team out of their comfort zone. While I don’t think this was meant maliciously, it does make me feel a little crappy.

    Am I over-reacting here?

    1. Four lights*

      I don’t know if it’s right or wrong to have it on there, but I think you’re ok to be upset about it.

    3. secret chart*

      You are not over-reacting. This is an assholic thing for them to have done and then not correct when you bring it up to them. It’s a wheel of punishments/humiliations, and you’re on that list. That’s not a good thing.

    4. Jamie*

      Not overreacting. It’s insulting both in tone and the assumption that you can stop what you’re doing to find busy work for a salesperson.

      Off topic but can I say IT struggler is the best phrase I’ve heard in ages and I’m totally stealing that for use irl.

    5. juliebulie*

      It’s an imposition/punishment to you. It’s also an admission that the sales team has some free time on their hands.

    6. Just Elle*

      I know it feels really demeaning, but I think they’re actually coming from the exact opposite place: they realize that you work immensely hard, do a lot for everyone, and could sometimes use a break from the madness. They’re not saying you want help with your entire difficult parts of your job, but maybe if part of your job is mind-numbing, thats a good thing to pass off.

      BUT it is still totally ok to say that they hurt your feelings and request they change the category.

      1. pancakes*

        That doesn’t make sense. If they genuinely wanted to help with parts of her job they’d offer help when help is needed, not when someone loses a sales contest. In this scenario there’s no alignment at all between her need for help and their availability to help.

        1. Just Elle*

          I’m not saying its great, because its not. I’m just saying, its more likely a (very) poorly executed attempt at recognizing her hard work than it is demeaning. People who really think others work is that invaluable… don’t openly make fun of them about it in a game, or even jokingly offer to help out.

    7. Serious Sam*

      I’d play into it.
      Step 1: demand an enforceable forfeit if the task is not done to your satisfaction.
      Step 2: have a list of available tasks, for instance check all the training records and prepare lists of people whose training has expired, or demand they take two competing on-line diversity courses and recommend the one to be rolled out to your area.

      They will avoid bothering you, but if they do, you get something useful done that otherwise would have taken an disproportionate amount of your time.

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        + 1 on having a list of the truly menial tasks you probably do (I feel like everyone usually has something and it isn’t a reflection of how important or valued your job is). If I could borrow one of your people I have a 10-inch high stack of paper files that need to be put into the file drawer in order, but first the oldest files need to be boxed and put into storage in order to clear a drawer for more current files, and while there in the file storage dungeon, they can ID the boxes that are 10 years old and shred those, but don’t shred the actual hanging folders, just the contents, and remove the paper slips from the plastic label-things so I can reuse them…

      3. LizB*

        This is where I land too. Have a list of tasks that any warm body could knock out without your direction (cleaning out the fridge, inventorying supplies, taking sandwich orders for next week’s team meeting, testing all the links on the website to make sure they go to the right place, shredding old files, etc). Or if there’s one task that’s on your plate that will always need to be done, ask the sales manager if the spin wheel can specifically list that task instead of “help Wearing Many Hats” to take even more brain-work out of it.

    8. CM*

      No, it’s rude. But this is coming from people (young dudes?) who think it’s okay to motivate their team by making them spin a “playful shaming” wheel in the first place, so.

      When they show up in your office, make them “help you” by writing an essay about the relationship between masculinity and capitalism.

      1. juliebulie*

        THAT is an awesome idea.
        Or if not that particular topic, perhaps an essay about “what does it mean to help.”

    9. Kes*

      Yeah, that sounds like they think you’re doing a lot and wanted to help you, but I agree the association is not great, and I think it’s totally fair to continue to push back regardless – I would just say that you don’t have time to find them things to do at random times

    10. Jessica*

      I don’t think you’re overreacting. The sales manager’s thinking might be that it’s lighthearted punishment in the way that (e.g.) it’s hard for a high-energy action-focused sales person to slow down to do something quiet and detail-oriented. But even if it’s not malicious, I’d be very miffed that they didn’t take it down after you pointed out the optics of this. Totally think you’re in the right to give a cold, firm refusal to accept the “help” if anyone lands there on the wheel.

    11. bunniferous*

      As someone who works in a sales field (real estate) but who has a particular position with more than normal admin tasks to go with it…..it is not that they look down on your job but it is that most people who are great at sales hate and or SUCK at paperwork/desk/admin tasks. It is two different skill sets. In my world you really do have to do both but to them it actually may feel like punishment BUT NOT because your job is hell, but because to THEM it might be hell. I suspect their job could feel like hell to YOU. If I was a normal real estate agent dealing with buyers and normal sellers, I would HATE it. I just sell foreclosures so all I need to do is deal with other agents and with the company repping the VA….that and going into what can be pretty disgusting houses on occasion. I love it.

      So….if this bothers you, it bothers you and it is perfectly fine to tell them that. But in your place I might just cackle, rub my hands together and come up with all sorts of lovely things for them to do….which I guarantee they would NOT enjoy….

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Personally I think you should mention this to your OWN manager. The sales manager isn’t the one who is going to have to replace you if these twits make you hare your job.
      But a thought–are there any tasks that rotate around office staff instead of paying extra to custodial staff? This would be especially satisfying if the salespeople aren’t based in the office to get a regular spot in a rotation. The wheel could be relabelled “excellence starts with your environment” and include anything from “clean the microwave” to “dust the awards on display in the lobby” to “restock paper supplies in all restrooms.”

  34. Free Meerkats*

    Awww, just hung up the phone talking with one of the companies I regulate. He closed with, “Love you.” I’m losing it here, I don’t think it registered to him – yet.

    4. Jamie*

      I’ve done that. I had a network engineer with the same name as my then husband.

      “I love you too, Sunshine” was the response I got. I’m turning red just remembering that.

    5. Cloudy with sunny breaks*

      Sitting beside my coworker, both of us with phones in had. Message comes through on my phone and he says Don’t read that! I sent it to you by mistake! He’d accidentally sent ‘I love you’ to me instead of his girlfriend. He was so embarrassed

    6. What's with Today, today?*

      Done that…to my boss. Luckily, we have worked together for 15 years, and he laughed hysterically.

    7. Emilitron*

      Based on the number of college students I’ve heard lamenting to each other, I would guess that every college professor gets at least one “love you bye” phone call and/or “love, student” email signoff, per semester!

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have also done that to my manager…she&I are both female, married to men. She had called me to ask a quick favor while I was on my way out of the office, and an email came in for my husband while we were on the phone together. As I hung up I said “Love you, bye!” And I could hear her laughing from my cube.

  35. EnfysNest*

    I found a job opening that I’m really excited by and I’m working on my application, but it’s for a job with a non-government company when my previous applications and promotions since graduation have all been for a federal government agency. I had originally been thinking I would just need to tweak a few things and have it ready to go, but once I started editing, I realized that I really need to redo pretty much the entire resume. The listing doesn’t show a closing date, so I’m just hoping it doesn’t randomly disappear over the weekend while I’m still updating the resume and writing my cover letter. The new job would be very similar to the same duties I have now, but at a really exciting private company, so I’ve got my fingers crossed!

    2. Annonno Today*

      Good luck! The time you spend crafting a new version of your resume may pay off big time down the road — whether on this job posting or another!

  36. R*

    Awkward coworker comments on my size. Scripts to deal?
    Me: I like to run! I have a race this weekend
    Coworker: Oh, that’s why you’re size 0. Go have an ice cream.
    Me (in my mind because I’ve nothing to say): Definitely not size 0. I also eat ice cream regularly. I like ice cream. I also like running. I don’t like people commenting on my supposed size. Sh*t it’s been a long time since I’ve said anything. What do I say now?

    1. JimmyJab*

      Omy. Alison has a lot of scripts for stuff like this in various older letters, but I’d go with one of her usual suggestions like, “what an odd thing to say to a coworker” or “please don’t comment on my body again.”

      1. valentine*

        I don’t like people commenting on my supposed size.
        This is a perfect response. If they doubled down, I’d be tempted to add a zero every time.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      “Please don’t comment on my body” is a good one. Say it very coolly, with a flat tone. “Why would you say that?” is another good one, as long as you don’t think your coworker is likely to take it literally and go off about how you are too small/skinny/something else.

      If it’s only the one time, I’d say let it go at this point rather than looping back later, but if it happens again, I’d absolutely make a point of addressing it. Sometimes leaving an awkward silence is enough to let someone know that they’ve said something unacceptable — and it is unacceptable! Don’t comment on people’s size, folks! Whether big or small or medium or recently changed or anything else, just don’t.

    3. Approval is optional*

      ‘Nah, that’s because of the tapeworm’.
      No? Ok, then I’d deploy the raised eyebrow of ‘wow, you just said that didn’t you’ at them if they say anything like that again.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Side note: what response does this co-worker want from you, exactly?
      “Yes, that’s exactly why I’m a size 0!”
      or
      “I didn’t think of that. Thanks for the brilliant idea. I’ll go have an ice cream.”

      There’s really no good outcome to that comment, even if you don’t recognize it as horribly offensive. I’m not sure what your co-worker is trying to accomplish here.

    5. Just Elle*

      I just had the worst experience with foot-in-mouth disorder in a room full of execs. They were complaining about how hot it was and I said “Really?? I don’t get it, I’m literally freezing right now and I’m wearing a sweater!” and one guy turned to me and said “Well honey, the rest of us all have a little extra insulation built in so next time think about that before you open your size 0 mouth.”

      …such a terrible combination of accidentally offending people and being offendingly put in my place.

      Honestly, in your situation, I would reply with either “please don’t comment on my size” or something myth busty like “*Shrug* I love both ice cream and running, my weight is just good genes, thanks.”

            1. Just Elle*

              Wait, is that a thing that isn’t done?

              Lol, I’ve lived in the south too long. Just recently returned up North.

              1. ...*

                Its less normal in the north but its totally normal in the midwest and especially from the company i work with thats more mid south. We call each other honey and sweetie and stuff but only the women and we’re all in a relatively similar age group.

              2. Gazebo Slayer*

                In the north, or at least where I live, a man calling a grown woman “honey” is sexual/intimate, really condescending, or both.

      2. Parenthetically*

        WHAT THE FK, that guy!!

        (But maybe “it’s genetic, nothing I can do” rather than “just good genes.” There’s nothing inherently “good” about being in a smaller body.)

      3. Gazebo Slayer*

        You didn’t say anything offensive at all, just that you were cold! If he was offended, that’s his problem and 100% about his issues. His comment was condescending and sexist and gross, especially considering that he is a male executive saying that to a woman in a junior position.

      4. Close Bracket*

        Having known size 0s who can sit outside in winter in a t-shirt and size 20s who get cold when it’s 75, I’m just going ot throw out there that your size is irrelevant to the conversation and he should not have brought it up.

      5. ...*

        UM NO that wasn’t putting you in your place that was being EXTREMELY rude and offensive to you. Some people are thin or small and people need to get over it. Would it be acceptable to say “Can we turn down the heat or will all you fatties start sweating?” No, never because that is incredibly cruel. Jesus that comment alone would send me job searching. You did nothing wrong!!!!! NOTHING. You can say that you’re cold when you’re cold. You are a human just as much as they are.

        1. Just Elle*

          I think I took it hardest because I recently put in a herculean 2-year effort to lose a lot of weight (but I just started in this department, so they don’t know that). So I’m really aware of how seemingly innocent comments from ‘smaller sized’ people can feel like personal attacks on your ‘larger sized’-ness. And I was horrified that I might have accidentally made them feel that way.

          1. JustaTech*

            But you didn’t bring up anything about size.
            They said they were warm. You said you were cold. You didn’t cast any judgement on their body size, or even their clothing.
            That was all him.

            And a really bizarre thing to say given that it’s pretty common knowledge that, in offices, women tend to be colder due to differences in standard office clothing for men (wool suit) and women.

          2. Gazebo Slayer*

            No. Do NOT feel bad about this. I am really angry at this creep for manipulating you into feeling guilty when HE was the one who said inappropriate things. If he feels like anyone smaller than him being cold is a personal attack on his size, that is his problem. He is the one who should be feeling bad – not because of his size, but because he’s a sexist asshole.

        2. Triumphant Fox*

          Also, “size 0 mouth” is just so aggressive. “Shut your mouth” feels really hurtful to me. The “some of us have a little extra insulation” is honestly par for the course and could be said about men vs. women (even though its a false dichotomy where size is concerned) and I wouldn’t get that offended since it didn’t mention my size – just “we’re probably warm since we’re fat” which is uncomfortable but whatever. But calling you out, naming an actual numbered size and telling you to shut your mouth is HR level to me.

          1. Gazebo Slayer*

            YES. Report him if your HR is decent. I would be unsurprised if this is just the tip of a misogynistic iceberg.

      7. vanillacookies*

        just need to join the chorus here to say that what *you* said was completely normal and unoffensive, and what *he* said was incredibly out of line.

    6. Parenthetically*

      “It’s REALLY rude and weird to comment on a coworker’s body size, Frank. Please don’t.”

      This is one of my pet peeves, and it angers me to the point that I don’t know if I’d be able to suppress something like, “Dude. It’s SO INAPPROPRIATE to tell people what to eat, ESPECIALLY when you’re correlating it to body size. Don’t tell a person in a larger body to eat a salad, don’t tell a person in a smaller body to eat ice cream. Let people fkn LIVE and stop telling people how to exist in their bodies. It is SO NOT YOUR BUSINESS IN ANY WAY.”

    7. Blueberry*

      When I was younger I occasionally said things like that, until a coworker and a manager separately told me not to. Needless to say they were right and I was greatly improved by having my obnoxiousness pointed out to me.

      Have a great time at your next race!

    8. CheeryO*

      I just had someone do this to me this week. “WOW, pizza?! I thought you only ate vegetables! You’re so skinny! WOW, PIZZA.” I said, “I love pizza. I love vegetables, too. Gotta have balance!” and internally rolled my eyes into outer space.

      I’d ignore it if it’s a one-off, but if the same person bugs you about it more than once, you’re well within your right to say something a little pointed. “Let’s not talk about people’s bodies at work,” or something along those lines. The people who say that stuff truly don’t understand why it’s annoying, though, so it might be an uphill battle.

    9. The Rat-Catcher*

      *pause**scrunch up face like you’re trying to figure out how that might be relevant*
      “Anyway…I’m excited about the race because…”

    10. fhqwhgads*

      I’ve seen previous suggestions of “what an odd thing to say” and think that one might work well here.

  37. ArchivesGremlin*

    So I applied to a job that closed on Monday and last night I saw I got an email for an interview (YEA!) but in reading the email, it was just “this is your interview time at blah”. No discussion of “does this work for you” or even given me options…. Should I be concerned (this is for a public university)?

    1. merp*

      I was given times like this for my current job (with the state, so maybe a bit similar in terms of process). I suspected if it really didn’t work and I asked to change, they would have, but I could make it work so I did. Since my process was absent other weird things, I let it go and it’s been a great job, so I’m glad I did! But maybe if they seem like they wouldn’t make any other allowances, or are otherwise weird, it might be a thing to pay attention to.

    2. TooTiredToThink*

      Since it was a public university; I’d just say it was a yellow flag. Their processes are fairly rigid for hiring. But I think they’d accommodate you if you couldn’t make it. If its on the administration side just remember its going to be a lot more political than you might be used to seeing in private enterprise; but at least the vacation and sick time make up for it (at least in my opinion).

        1. TooTiredToThink*

          Yeah, I didn’t even touch on academia since I only worked on that side as a student worker in college; heh. I have no idea what its like to be a FTE.

  38. Shift to Strategy*

    I am working as a change management agent for a few years now, usually in a tactical way. I’d like to shift from the “doing” part of change management to the “thinking” part, coming with more strategic partnerships and working with leaders versus working with managers and teams.

    My boss says I am showing some skills in this area, but I struggle with examples toward what a strategy is, much less how to develop one.

    I know I sound naïve, yet I’ve been partnering with others on this goal, but need to find my own inner strategist.

    Anyone go through this shift who might have some examples or advice? Thanks!

    1. Just Elle*

      Theres so many great resources on this now! Check out APQC, they’re an entire org devoted to business process management.

      Our company has a BPM group which is basically all strategic. I think a key step in people actually letting us be strategic, is that we started to put ourselves out there as coaches to teach other people how to do the change management themselves. They execute, we support. A big part of our support function is looking across organizations “breaking silos” and facilitating that cross-functional alignment. Thats where a lot of the leadership discussions come in – getting the execs of the silos on the same page. Then they start to see you as an ally and bring you into projects earlier and earlier.

      As you start to support people, the opportunities for initiatives will become evident. Don’t just invent strategy. No change for change’s sake. But by removing yourself from the drivers seat, you’ll be able to see more clearly where the challenges of the business are and identify processes to eliminate them.

      1. Karma*

        Just Elle: I just started a job where my area is implementing BPM in a large organisation. Can you recommend any resources for starting BPM from scratch – particularly regarding managing process transition from current state to future state and interim change management?
        Sorry to hijack the thread!

        1. Just Elle*

          Yay, I’m so excited more orgs are seeing the value in BPM!
          Definitely recommend APQC, they have a whole framework!
          Also, I’m a huge believer in lean (for manufacturing) and Agile (for business processes) for both making a future state vision and how to break that down into steps. Theres lots of great books on this. I started with ‘Learning Agile’. I also love the website agilenutshell for a 5 minute overview. We also worked with C Prime, an Agile consulting company who is excellent. They helped broaden our reach and coach more people into experts who we could then deploy.
          Look for info on PDCA loops for lean – this can be easily adapted to business.

  39. An Elephant Never Baguettes*

    This question is probably more for the German readers, as I know written reports (Arbeitszeugnisse) are not as much of a thing in the applying processes of other countries.

    Here’s the thing: I’m on a maternity cover contract which will not be made permanent. While I’m not actively looking yet, a job ad fell into my lap which is just too good not to apply to. It’s with a business partner my department works with – just not in the department we work with. However, due to me technically planning on staying my entire contract, I don’t have any of my reports yet – I can get them in a couple of weeks, no problem, but not in time to include them in the application.

    How do I mention this? In the email I send with my application? Should I ask my boss if I could use them as a reference in the interim and put that in the email (they know I am planning to start looking around soon-ish and would not begrudge me moving up the timeline a bit for this job)?

    1. Koala dreams*

      Wouldn’t you usually get the written report after you quit your job? In that case it would be fine to just include the ones from previous jobs, and mention in your application that you are currently employed at X and your contract will end in (date).

    2. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

      They won’t expect you to have an Arbeitszeugnis from your present job. That would be pretty unusual. If they’ve been with a company for a longer period of time people often request a Zwischenzeugnis, but that doesn’t seem to be the case with you. So, I wouldn’t sweat it.

  40. Interview timeframe*

    After interviewing, what is the longest amount of time that has passed before getting an offer? I interviewed two weeks ago and I’m wondering if I can hold out any hope that an offer might still come through or if I should assume I didn’t get the job.

    1. You can't fire me; I don't work in this van*

      3 months. In fairness, the company was bought a week after my interview so they had bigger priorities.

      1. Interview timeframe*

        At least you had an idea of why the hiring process would slow down. I’m glad you got an offer after a while. That’s encouraging.

    2. pcake*

      My ex-husband applied for a job with his local city services. They called him two years later with an offer :-/

      Unsurprisingly, he had already found a job…

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Same happened to me. They sounded surprised. I think I deserve credit for not including any swear words in my reply.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      I had an on-site interview in December. Job was put on hold for several months, wound up getting an offer in late May the following year. Caveat: higher education is notorious for being slow (and weird) at hiring. If you’re in a corporate environment, I’d say that if you go a month without any communication, you should Mentally Move On*, and let it be a surprise if they contact you.

      *(c) Ask A Manager

      1. Interview timeframe*

        I’m trying to mentally move on! This company has been dragging and from the Glassdoor reviews that doesn’t seem to be the norm for them. So I don’t know what’s going on.

    4. Sunflower*

      If you haven’t followed up, 2 weeks is enough time to follow up. When I accepted my current job, I can’t remember how long I was waiting but I did have to follow up with the recruiter on next steps. She said she was still trying to figure out if I needed to meet with anyone else. As with all things job searching, best to follow up and proceed as if you didn’t get the job until you hear otherwise.

      1. Interview timeframe*

        I sent thank you emails to the interviewers afterwards. I did hear from the recruiter that they were wrapping up interviews last week. I’ll send a follow up email next week since I don’t want to send anything on a Friday.

        1. juliebulie*

          Hiring manager was doing chemo and no one else was taking up the slack for her (plus she wouldn’t let anyone help). But even after I got the phone call, it was nearly a month before all of the necessary execs (who were not undergoing chemo) got around to signing off on everything.

    7. NeonDreams*

      I interviewed for a federal position over a month ago but haven’t heard back. I’ve heard it can take up to 3 months, so I’m trying to be patient. It’s hard, though.

    8. Kimmy Schmidt*

      It probably depends on your industry and location, but I would think that two weeks is still entirely reasonable for just about every industry. The company may have been dealing with some internal crises, the hiring manager might be out sick, maybe they had a freak power outage and now priority one is resetting all the clocks and microwaves. At this point, I think there are a lot of reasonable explanations for a two week waiting period.

    10. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I once interviewed in February and got the offer in June. Hiring timelines vary wildly! (in this case, the funding for the project I would be managing was delayed–I had long written off the company, but it turns out it was just timing and they wanted me, just couldn’t pay me yet)

    15. Staja*

      I interviewed in May and got my offer in late July. Started August 27th of last year. This was also my second round of interviews – the original person hired didn’t work out, so my first interview was actually December 2017…(Tech company, in finance)

  41. You can't fire me; I don't work in this van*

    Do you have any common corporate buzzwords that annoy you?

    Off the top of my head:

    “Ask” as a noun. “I know this is a big ask, but I need volunteers for inventory this weekend.”

    Using “around” instead of “about”. “We’ve had discussions around contingency planning”

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      “Pen holder”. As in, “Sansa is the pen holder for the Teapot Modernization Project.”
      I don’t even know what it means and it irritates me to no end.

      4. Policy wonk*

        It means Sansa is responsible for writing the report (or other written products) and others with input should provide it to her. She has the pen on the report, holds the pen for the project.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      “We’ve had discussions around contingency planning”

      What does that even mean? It sounds like you’ve sorta-kinda-discussed it but not in any meaningful or change-initiating way.

      And I hate “ask”, too. It’s a request. Just call it a request.

      1. You can't fire me; I don't work in this van*

        This is EXACTLY why I don’t like it!

        I worked as a financial services admin assistant for four years, supporting fiduciaries. That means they were required to act in the best interest of the client, and had to document all calls and meetings with clients. When I suggested to leadership that we specifically NOT use “around” in that context they looked at me like I has two heads.

    3. rayray*

      I really loathe office speak. The one I don’t like is “Please advise”. I hate when it comes after a question like “Hey, I never got the report on x, so you have that for me? Please advise.”
      It just… I don’t know. I hate the way its used sometimes. You’re not asking for my input or advice on something, so I can’t “advise” you on that.

      1. juliebulie*

        Especially when there’s an explicit question before it. I get that it’s a question and they want an answer, so “please advise” seems rather demanding.

      2. san junipero*

        In my experience, that means they’re pissed off with you.

        Or at least that’s what it means when I use it, LOL.

        2. Diahann Carroll*

          That’s how I use it, lol. Or if I’m just annoyed at a particular project in general.

      3. WKRP*

        It’s a passive aggressive way of relinquishing any responsibility and making you handle with whatever it is they’re dealing with. Every time. There is never a time when “please advise” is not used to avoid being involved in a situation. If someone actually wanted advice, they would ask a question, not make a statement.

          1. JustaTech*

            One of my company bigwigs used “synergy” 8 times in three sentences in a big meeting last week. The thing is, it has a very specific scientific meaning, which is similar to but not the same as the business jargon. He used it correctly about half the time, and I think he was just super excited to get to say it.

        2. Ktelzbeth*

          I don’t use “please advise” often, but I’ve never used it to try to relinquish responsibility. I’ve use it when I don’t know what to do and need help. I’ll be happy to do whatever; I just don’t know what whatever is.

      4. Princesa Zelda*

        Oooh, that’s annoying. I almost always use “please advise” in the context of emailing IT because I’m at the end of my troubleshooting rope and need advice. (Ex. “Hi Moss, I’m having trouble with getting the Teapot Program to properly boot. I already turned my computer off and on again, and uninstalled and reinstalled the program, and I’m still seeing Error 626. Please advise.”) But it’d be weird to see an email that said “Do you have xyz? Please advise” because the “please advise” is just another way of saying “please give me directions.”

    4. Beancounter Eric*

      “Reach Out” instead of “contact”
      “Optics” when used for anything outside the scientific definition

      2. Filosofickle*

        I’ve been intrigued by several threads lately on the hatred of “reach out”. I don’t get it! I use it all the time, it’s never occurred to me to see it as overly personal or jargon-y. It simply means contact me. I might say call or email if I’m being specific about the mode of communication, but I use “reach out” to invite someone to contact me when it’s a more general request and there’s no preference how they do it.

        I do have a warm, personal style in business, maybe that’s part of the reason. “Reach out if you need any help” doesn’t seem like a weird thing to say. My alternative is something like “let me know if you need anything” but I need to switch it up sometimes, and also my preference to eliminate I and Me as much as possible in writing.

        1. CheeryO*

          I agree, “reach out” and “touch base” are both fine, imo. I wouldn’t categorize them as jargon.

    5. CatCat*

      “Socialize” when we’re not talking about happy hour or a team lunch. “Great idea, CatCat, let me socialize that with Cersei and Jamie to see what they think.”

      “Circle back.” Why not “follow up” or “get back” or “call/email you later”? Why this jargony term? I had an ex-boss who used it so much that it just grated on me. “Let me think about that CatCat and then circle back to you.”

      1. Jamie*

        Idk about your Jamie, but this Jamie would hear the word socialize and pretend to have an emergency and hide in the lab. :)

      2. rayray*

        Team-

        Good morning, we are living the dream aren’t we? Our meeting was a success, discussing the synergy of the company. Moving forward, we have lots of exciting team-building activities to get the ball rolling on our new initiative. Mary will reach out to the team on this one. Let’s all think outside the box for the game plan for our next meeting, today at 1:00. We’ll need to circle back on a few key items we missed today. Jonathan, will you please pick up the lunch order and Joseph will you please take the minutes? Please Advise.”

        Best,
        Jan

        1. Dusty Bunny*

          Haven’t heard “socialize” in this context, and I’m gonna bust it out at the next “why are we all here? couldn’t you cover this in a e-mail?” meeting. I am going to me the epicenter of this piece of jargon at my company. Oh yeah!!!!

      5. Filosofickle*

        I get that socialize sounds stupid. It should be minimized. When what you mean is “I’m going to check with X and Y” or “let me find out what the team thinks” then those are better.

        I do find that in my consulting work, it can serve a purpose. My client-side people often have to “socialize” our work because we’re delivering data or solutions that may feel threatening, and we have to get leaders to work with us, not against us. That means having one-on-one conversations with key people. Making sure they understand the context and purpose of the work. Bringing them along on the process so they feel like part of the solution. Preparing them for meetings. Getting their feedback early and often so they don’t sandbag us later. Honestly, I wouldn’t know what to call that other than “socialize”. The alternative is a whole paragraph.

        1. Reliquary*

          “Acculturate” if you’re trying to get the key people to get on board with your solutions.
          “Inculturate” if you’re trying to get your solutions in line with the needs of the key people.

      6. Diahann Carroll*

        I’ve never heard socialize used in that manner and, yes, it’s off-putting because it makes no sense.

      7. Earthwalker*

        A bunch of us doing volunteer work were talking about unfavorite office phrases. I mentioned “socialize.” One person burst out laughing. He said that he hadn’t heard it before but when he heard me say it he imagined the management laying down newspapers to teach employees that they couldn’t just pee anywhere.

    6. Quill*

      I think someone who popularized “ask” thought request was too long?

      My least favorite is still “learnings”

    7. College Career Counselor*

      1. Stakeholder. (We have enough stakeholders to take on every vampire in True Blood)
      2. “At the end of the day” (Really? Which day? We’re in higher education; the end of the day means adding an extension)
      3. “When the rubber meets the road” (drastically exaggerates the speed/urgency of anything we decide)
      4. “Based off” numbers, our analysis…” (your analysis should be based ON the numbers, otherwise, your analysis is OFF-base)
      5. optics (except for the astrophysics dept, we aren’t studying light)
      6. surface as a verb (“Dave is like an enemy u-boat commander with the way he surfaces his objections..”)
      7. paradigm-shift (We’re using 70% recycled paper, not shifting the paradigm from creation to evolution over here)
      8. I forget what 8 was for..
      9. Disruptive Innovation vs. Incremental Innovation (this can actually be useful, but it still bugs me)
      10. Breaking down the silos (you’d think we were an agricultural school here)

      1. juliebulie*

        9 for a lost god?

        I’ve been hatin’ on “leverage” for a long time. (I don’t think much of “utilize” either.)

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Utilize is one of my pet peeves. It’s a great word when it is with a very specific meaning and people don’t use that mean. You use something the way it is designed. You utilize something in a way that it wasn’t designed for. The classic example: “I use my cast-iron pan to cook breakfast. Last night I utilized it to drive off a burglar.”
          By definition if you are writing a manual, you are telling customers how to use a product. The only time utilize would be appropriate is in a warning: “Do not utilize this penny as a nose plug.”

        3. Princess Scrivener*

          So so late but +a MILLION on the “utilize.” I have an editing rule set up to change all instances of “utilize” to “use.” Yep, that’s right. I said it.

        2. Southern Yankee*

          +100
          My mind actually supplied the rhythm and voice in my head as I read #8 and it took me a second to realize why. That’s a deeply imbedded subconscious song reference right there!

      3. Gumby*

        Stakeholder is a big thing in project management, but I don’t know of a reasonably short substitution. “All the people who have a stake in this project whether it be as a contributor, an eventual end user, upper management, or the team that will eventually have to provide support for the project’s resulting product” just doesn’t roll off the tongue quite as nicely. If you need to address just one of those groups, fine, but when you are putting together a stakeholder communication plan, you really need a broadly applicable term to cover everyone.

      2. Out of Retail*

        AGREED. (I edited something the other day with multiple forms of “utilize” in one sentence…it hurt so much.)

      4. JustaTech*

        “Use” has fewer letters! Use it!

        (But of course now utilize has the additional definition as a synonym to “use” where it used to only mean “use in an unintended way”.)

    10. Goldfinch*

      “Challenge” when you mean “problem”. I don’t have time for your optimist bullshit when the world is on fire, Karen.

      1. Jamie*

        I use issue instead of problem after one too many bosses said the word problem was too negative.

        Still sets my teeth on edge even when I do it all the time.

        1. Zephy*

          An old boss of mine (apparently) got the same feedback re: “problem.” She replaced it with the word “opportunity.”

          Later, she apologized for being late one morning, citing “stomach opportunities.”

    11. JJJJShabado*

      I really dislike the use of high-level (e.g. high-level description). Say overview. You mean overview.

    12. random noodle*

      Why is it fancier/more professional to “speak to” some topic than it is to “discuss” or “speak about” it?

      1. NewReadingGlasses*

        I really really hate this one. It comes across as condescending and arrogant, as if the audience can’t possibly understand the topic, so you and your Slides of Awesome Knowledge will just talk amongst yourselves.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I reserve that for times when what I really want to say is “Listen, moron, that’s my project and I gave you the answer last week but you didn’t like the answer so you’ve involved 3 layers of management to get a different answer. And I don’t see any need to waste their time.”

    13. LadyByTheLake*

      Most of the ones that people are listing don’t bother me at all (although I don’t know what a “pen holder” is either). My two that I hate are “solutioning” and “incentivize.” What’s wrong with “solving” and “reward”?

      2. Filosofickle*

        Yeah, 90% of these don’t bug me either. But agree that adding suffixes like this and changing forms of speech create the worst offenders. Once in a while I start to hear “incentivize” pop out (because it is so commonly heard) and I stuff it back down. If it’s halfway out, I shorten it to”incent” which is a pre-existing word that means the same thing.

      3. Southern Yankee*

        And solutioning’s equally evil cousin “architecting” which drives me insane. Even worse when used together – “we’re architecting a solution.” You are creating software not building a damn building! ARGHHHHHHH

      4. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I got an email yesterday asking for assistance with product “upgradation” but he’s not from an English-speaking country so it just got me thinking about language change . (“Huh…we say degradation but not upgradation .or downgradation either. Or use degrade as a noun. OK now back to the actual question.)

        *and I now have to tell my phone to unlearn those words!

    14. annakarina1*

      I had a boss who was very condescending to me, and anytime I made a mistake, he would finish his correction with the sentence “Moving forward . . .” and it just really bugged me, as it started to sound like chastising to me, so now I bristle a little at that phrase when it’s used in a work context.

      1. NoMercy*

        I also really hate the word optics- just say it looks good/bad when….
        Adulting- I know this is not necessarily office jargon but my supervisor says it a lot to younger staff when they complain about this or that. “It’s all part of adulting!”
        The newer one in our office is you got this. “I know it’s a challenging project but you got this!”

        Back in the early 90s the buzzword was “Wunderbar” for wonderful. I still cringe when I hear that one in my head.

        1. Gumby*

          Ugh, adulting.

          I’m also annoyed that it is frequently applied to things that are just part of being a functional human being regardless of age.

    15. Gwen*

      “Touch” is probably my least favorite. I’m in marketing and we are constantly talking about how we want to touch the consumer X times, we touched this audience at blah blah. Stop touching people!

        1. Agnodike*

          “Regards” seems very normal to me, but “Best” absolutely kills me as a valediction. In my head I autocomplete it to “[I’m the] Best”.

          1. Clisby*

            In the company where I worked before I retired, contacts from our German partner company often signed emails with “Regards” so those of us who dealt with them got into the habit as well. It’s a little more formal than I would have been normally, but I don’t see anything strange about it.

      2. Filosofickle*

        What’s the alternative for deliverables? Honest question. I’m a consultant. When I scope work, I describe what we’ll be creating and delivering, the project deliverables. It might be a workshop, a report, a deck, etc, depending on the project and phase. If I’m referring to any one in particular I’ll use the specific term. But all together, those are the deliverables.

          1. Agnodike*

            Not all work is deliverable, though. If I make a bunch of phone calls, that’s work, but it isn’t a deliverable. Sometimes you can substitute “work product,” but it’s clunky and many people find it confusing when there’s no tangible product changing hands.

    17. Annonno Today*

      “Let’s circle back on this” means, when said in a group where I work, one of two things:

      1. I do not want the entire group hearing my answer because it’s uncomfortable for me to admit to.
      2. I want to get you alone to tell condescendingly tell you why we will be doing it my way, not yours.

    18. CM*

      This is maybe not such a buzzword, but I’ve noticed people saying it more and more (particularly in the office I most recently worked in): “Learnings” instead of “lessons learned” or “lessons” or “discoveries” or “insights.” We already had words that describe what this is.

      1. Alice*

        Clearly you are my soulmate!
        (I was moved to post about these immediately on reading the first post and came back to read the rest after. That’s how much I hate “learnings.”)

    20. HalloweenCat*

      I work for a tech-adjacent company so my least favorite word that I’m forced to use in everything I write is, of course, “innovative” and all its derivatives.

    21. Close Bracket*

      “Optics.” Please stop using it unless there is a lens involved.
      Signed,
      Optical Physicist.

    22. zora*

      Everyone at my company uses “cover off” like all. the. time. I hate it. It is so weird and redundant to me. Like “let’s have a call to cover off on the Peterson file”.

      Also this one has died down, but we had this one person who used “Socialize” like it was going out of style. Like, multiple times per paragraph. “We’ll finish the checklist and then socialize it. And once it’s socialized, we’ll have a training about it. To make sure it was fully socialized.” On one conference call she used it so much I really wanted to scream.

      I’m mostly fine with ‘touch base’ as a verb, like “let’s touch base on that project before you leave.” But I hate it as a noun, like used in the subject line of phone calls all the time. ‘Satya/Fatima touch base’ or even worse: ‘Satya/Fatima base touch’. Just call it a “call” that’s what it is! Or a meeting.

        1. zora*

          I don’t even really know, which is why I hate it.

          I think people really could just say let’s “go over” or let’s “talk about” [TOPIC], because usually it’s updating someone on the status and needs when one person is going to be out, or when they are adding someone new to a team.

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Unless your project is raising a puppy, I cannot imagine why it needs that much socialization. Are you worried that your project will have trouble behaving well in public later and may be fearful of strangers?

        I used to have someone who would, instead of saying something like “let’s touch base about x” would say something like “I can I touch your base about x?”. Based on the rest of her personality, this was probably intentional, and just walking that line between “thing it’s worth telling someone to stop doing” and “thing to put up with”, which was one of her favorite lines to inhabit.

    23. Emmie*

      Bio break as a substitute for bathroom.

      I don’t want to know about your bathroom habits.

      Tell me you need five minutes, or to refill your coffee / water, or need a break.

      1. JustaTech*

        I’ll admit I occasionally say I need to “un-hydrate”, but only to my coworker with a reasonably crude sense of humor, and not with, like, other people around.

        Maybe the idea with “bio break” is that it includes other biological needs, like a drink of water or a stretch?

    24. anon attorney*

      “The XYZ piece”. If you continued with “…of the job/project” I could maybe cope but WTF is s “piece”?

      (Spoiler – it’s a HR buzzword I believe).

      I work with a guy who is just oblivious to the fact that using bullshit bingo HR words to a bunch of hardassed trial attorneys is a great way to ensure everything he says is ignored.

        1. Inefficient Cat Herder*

          We did this in my former department at retreats — had lingo bingo cards at our team’s table. No one else understood why we found the meetings so funny.

    25. Collette*

      Ugh. Yes.
      Curated. Have hated it since I first heard it used incorrectly in corporate marketing.
      “Socialized” is now making its way through my office. As in, “I think this new approach will work, but we’ll need to socialize it to address negative concerns.” I flinch every time I hear it.

        1. zora*

          ok not to perpetuate the insanity, but I don’t think assess is a substitute.
          “Socialize” is more used to mean, “we’re going to send it to the larger team and make sure they understand it and then get some feedback.” And it could also include “Absorb it and actually start using it.”

          1. zora*

            But again, I would just use “implement” or “start sending around”… all the details about how the sending is going to work and what the purpose is are implied, right? I mean, the point is for everyone to use or implement the new [THING], so we all know that’s what you mean!!

    26. Alice*

      “learnings”
      aargh
      aaaaargh
      What is wrong with “lessons learned” or “observations” or “things we have learned”?
      aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

    27. Amethyst*

      “Shoot me/him/her/etc. an email.”

      Drives me nuts EVERY. TIME.

      I make it a point to use “send” instead. Or “email me”.

    28. Grandma Mazur*

      What we say – what we mean:

      Circle back – return to
      Going forward – in the future
      Bottom out – understand
      Deep dive – thorough(ly)
      Reach out – contact
      Take this offline – talk to each other after the meeting’s finished
      Quick and dirty – quick and so poorly done as to render it pointless

      Oh and I really hate:
      The Daily Mail Test – This is a good idea and experts agree we should do it but how bad good someone make this sound if they really wanted to?

    29. The Rat-Catcher*

      We have a weird term called “teachback” – as in “review the material and then do a teachback to the class ”
      Or…you know…”teach the class.” Why add three additional words to get to use this BS word?

    30. Earthwalker*

      I hate “press the flesh,” as in “We can’t do a remote meeting. We have to travel there and meet face to face because you press the flesh when you’re teambuilding.” That is, you shake hands. But…eeeuw. I’m also squicked with “orientate.” When you have an orientation you “orientate” people. (Which makes it an orientatation in my book.)

    31. Mimmy*

      I agree with the couple others who said “deliverables”. It sounds way too fancy

      “Touch base” annoys me but I can’t think of a good alternative. Our director says “catch up”, which is a little better…

    32. MissDisplaced*

      Ecosystem for corporate initiatives or services.

      “The new call center ecosystem can handle customer requests quickly.”

      While I understand an ecosystem is just interrelated systems, “eco” implies a natural or organic system. Using this word in the corporate sense is entirely artificial and fake. I hate that it’s being commoditized as a buzzword like synergy was a few years back.

    33. blaise zamboni*

      “Parking lot” as either a noun or a verb drives me CRAZY. In my company we only use it to mean “follow-up issues” soooo…just. say. follow-up. The parking lot is where I go to not care about work anymore, so that image falls so flat for me.

    34. Crabby Patty*

      “Ask” as a noun, “invite” as a noun, “pivot,” “fixer,” “Boom! Done!” and a million others.

      1. Crabby Patty*

        Also, phrases accompanied by “up”:

        “Let’s meet up for coffee.” Can’t people just “meet for coffee”? What’s the use of “up”?

        “We’re having a meet-up at…” No! You’re meeting at… See how much simpler it is to lose the “up”?

        Same for “switch up”; beyond annoying.

        And please, it’s not “anyways,” and it never will be.

  42. Emby*

    I could use some advice on how to continue behaving professionally with colleagues when outside life forces are causing some serious trouble. Over the last three months, my life outside of work has become complicated in many ways, and it’s been causing me some serious stress/anxiety/borderline depression, all of which I am working on with my psychiatrist. However, it’s not an easy, overnight fix, and my mood changes are creeping into my workday. In particular, I’m having a harder time handling when my colleagues do things that bother me. Some of these things are things that bothered me all along, but I never made a fuss about (like making jokes about me doing their work for them, constant complaining), some are truly things that need to stop (bringing allergens into the environment when I’ve specifically asked it to stop, and shown how it affects me), and some are things that I know are just because of my current state (talking to me without me expecting it sometimes causes minor panic attacks). It is not my colleague’s fault that my ability to handle these things has changed, and for the most part, they don’t deserve any ire on my part (the allergens thing is a real problem, but the rest not so much), but I want to be able to be productive at work. Is there a way I can approach it with them, where I don’t have to explain my mental health state, but can get some changes?

    1. Wandering_beagle*

      I don’t have much in the way of advice, but I do empathize with your situation. Are you able to and do you like to wear headphones at work? Can you take little breaks to go for short walks to get away from your desk — even if it’s just getting up to refill a water bottle, stuff like that? You will get through this! It might get uncomfortable, but you will get through it :)

    2. Brownie*

      I’ve been dealing with this myself over the last 6 months. I’m giving myself permission to be stressed and to take extra time for myself during the day, be it 5 minutes outside in the sun or holding off on responding to an email for a little bit. Trying to force myself into productivity makes the stress that much worse, so I sidle up to it slowly through self-care, mindfulness, and occasionally a break outside in the fresh air. Learning how to not beat myself up for not meeting my perfectionist tendencies has also been helping a lot. And, occasionally, I get to blow off stress by looking at an email thread where a coworker has screwed up badly and saying “Welp, too bad for them, not my problem to fix!” That wonderful feeling of letting go of that sense of responsibility to fix things my coworkers broke can de-stress me for days sometimes.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      The allergens are an ADA issue, if you’re in the U.S. If the coworker won’t quit bringing allergens into work and you’ve talked to them, you can talk to your/their boss and onto HR, if your company has one.
      It sounds like you’re working toward solutions. I hope things get better for you soon.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      When people start irritating me, my go-to is to get extra rest. If the best you can do is just sit and read quietly as opposed to actually sleeping then do that. But allot more time in your day for rest. This is temporary and I considered it to be part of my healing process with other issues. You wouldn’t skip an appt with a doc, right? The same goes for that extra rest, don’t skate past it.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      About the jumpiness… if your computer has you facing a wall, consider a mirror so you see people coming. There was a thread here within the last couple of months with a lot of specific ways to do that.

  43. Justin*

    How do you work with someone who comes off angry a lot of the time?

    I’ve written about my boorish coworker before. Thankfully I have less to do with him now (he’s just… nearby, being a boor).

    Now, I am on a project with someone I think is one of the very smartest people on our team. Before this project, I would have said she was the person I respected the most here, or at least one of the top three.

    But… she just seems furious all the time, and it’s starting to get to me.

    Far be it for me to police a woman’s emotions (there are tons of reasons to be furious these days, surely), however, we need to work together pretty closely, and she spends a lot of her day audibly sighing/grumbling at her computer (which is behind me). She also is… surprisingly openly angry when we meet with our (mutual, also female) boss about our project, far more openly angry than I would ever be but again, unless our boss says something, that’s not really my business, even if anger in meetings makes me uncomfortable (my boss doesn’t seem to love it, but she doesn’t say anything to me, so).

    The problem is, I really have trouble dealing with angry people (I would have this problem if it were a man; have been lucky not to deal with many angry men in my field). Consequently, I have trouble approaching her for collaboration on our project. I don’t THINK she is ever angry at me and my work, but she’s fairly critical of it when we have a mutual meeting, so it doesn’t help (but really I think she’s just like that).

    I’ve tried to connect on other things (she talks about politics and the president a lot, in ways I agree with), but she prefers to speak to other colleagues about it and I know enough to know not to push if someone doesn’t really want to talk to you.

    Mostly, she just seems pretty miserable, which I empathize with, but… how do I swallow my (working on in therapy..) issues communicating with people I fear are angry so I can collaborate effectively?

    (And yes, if all my colleagues are an issue, I should leave; I tried this summer, didn’t get any bites, now I need to stay for the benefits with a baby coming. but indeed I want out – I do not fit in here socially/personality-wise at all).

    I hope no one thinks I’m coming down on her for possibly really having some issues to deal with, but her response to Large World Problems and “the internet is slow for all of us today” is the same level of fury, so it’s just a hard environment for me.

    Thanks.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That sounds like A Lot.

      Can you try to limit your communication with her to email/text? Alternately, maybe have a conversation with your (presumably shared) supervisor. “Hey, I’m working with Linda on the Widget project and I’ve noticed she seems a bit frustrated/angry. Do you have any suggestions for how I can best work with her without adding to her frustration?”

      1. Justin*

        Yes, I’d like to touch base with our boss (because this is going to get to where it impacts the project). I’m worried because I used up some political capital getting my boorish colleague to rein in his behavior, and I’m worried that I’ll just look like a squeaky wheel if I keep complaining about colleagues….

        but they gave me a raise, so they do seem to want me around.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Don’t approach it as complaining – approach it as looking for advice/information on how to best handle the situation.

          1. Justin*

            This is the healthybrain way to frame it, and I am going to attempt to inform my brain that this is a possible framing! :)

    2. Wandering_beagle*

      I would try to limit contact with her to only what you absolutely need.

      The other part would be trying to cultivate compassion for her, even if a tiny bit. I try to do that usually by thinking, “I wonder what else there is going on in this person’s life or their past that I don’t know about that would cause them to be so angry all the time?” That usually makes me soften a bit toward them and have more wherewithal to deal.

      I mean, it’s exhausting to listen to people like that and have to interact with them — just imagine how draining it would be to be like that all the time, stuck in that pattern! Also, I feel like the type of anger you are describing boils down to feeling a lack of control / powerlessness. If you have ever been in a situation like that, you know how frustrating and awful that can feel.

      1. Justin*

        Yes, I do empathize, and I know the feeling. Which is why it never bothered me until we were on the project together, and I absolutely need to ask her a question right after she’s growled at something. So I usually wait, even if it’s time-sensitive, until she seems more relaxed. I’m waiting on sending her an email right now!

    3. Annonno Today*

      I wish I had advice. I have a similar situation in my group; they are always sullen, non-communicative, seem angry, mutter when someone asks them for something… I tend to keep interactions to a minumum and are brisk and businesslike when communicating. But it’s not ideal, and it affects our entire group.

      I get people have sh!t in their lives, but your sh!t doesn’t mean you get to be an a$$ to the rest of us. Every. Damn. Day.

      1. Justin*

        Exactly.

        It would be a lot easier if I had other friends here, but as it stands it leaves me very isolated. Oh well.

    4. PersistentCat*

      Are you sure it’s anger? Someone (close coworker in terms of duties) seemed taken aback about something & then eggshelled around me…when I asked him about it, he said he didn’t want to make me mad again. This really took me by surprise, because I had been expressing mild frustration & wasn’t anywhere near “mad” on the emotional scale. Still haven’t resolved that one; it seems some people magnify my “mild” negative emotions/expressions beyond anything I would suspect…
      None of this helps you, really, because if she’s genuinely mad, maybe she feeds off the “passionate”, strong emotional energy that’s bringing you down.
      If she’s merely frustrated about certain things, maybe it’ll help put things in context for you, however.

      1. Justin*

        It’s possible, because I really am sensitive to anger, that I magnify it in my head.

        She is clearly actually angry in the meetings. She may be merely frustrated at her desk when I am hesitant to approach her. So if I separate the two, I think it can work better.

        1. Close Bracket*

          I would work on not labeling her emotions. Your perception that she is angry is probably causing you more grief than her actual actions are. When she does something that you label as anger, try just noting the behavior, instead. Instead of, “Lucinda is really angry right now,” go with, “Lucinda is knitting her brow and speaking quickly,” or whatever. Work on noting the behavior and moving on from it: “Lucinda is knitting her brow and speaking quickly. I better write down those widget numbers she is reading off, and I should remember to bring up last week’s widget report.”

          1. Not So NewReader*

            This may actually work. Some people are just angry/brusque and that is who they are.

            I worked with a bunch of angry people at one place. What I learned to do was ignore the tone of voice and listen to the words.

            Bob: “I CAN’T FIND MY STUPID INK CARTRIDGE I JUST GOT.” sigh/slam/sigh
            Me: [Calmly restating the problem in my mind: Oh, Bob can’t find his ink cartridge. I saw it the other day.] My out loud voice: Bob, I saw it when you opened the middle drawer the other day.
            Bob: Oh. Yeah. There it is.

            This requires separating the message from the method of delivery. For a long time I used the expression, “Good or solid message, bad delivery.” That covered a lot of situations.

            However, maybe you can ask your boss privately, how you can help make the meetings “less tense”. Maybe she’d have something to offer.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I am angry woman! LOL! Just kidding. But I’ve so been there, so know this.

      It’s not about you.
      It’s not directed at you.
      You can’t know what her situation is.
      Try to have a bit of compassion, but don’t dwell.

      All you can do is try to be pleasant and polite and/or tune it out. If she starts venting to you, just say something like, “I’m sorry you seem to be having such a difficult time with that,” and then wrap it up and walk away. If you need something from her, ask politely and remember to thank her.

  44. Teapot Translator*

    I wanted to share a link to an opinion piece about impostor syndrome, which I found interesting. Link in reply.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I tend to agree. There are too many things that are passed on to individuals as “their problem” and it’s actually society’s problem. But the individual is labeled. There is lots we as a society could do to help people thrive. And we fail. Over and over…

      Directly addressing impostor syndrome I don’t believe we give people the skills they need to launch their lives and that is where the problem starts. When additional problems occur we brush those problems off. You ever read one of the columns where someone asks what do you wish you knew starting out? It really shows the gaps between what we are doing and what is needed.

      I will say that we have come a long way since what I saw growing up in the 60s. But we have much more work to do.

    3. SimplyHired*

      Thanks for sharing. I’ve been thinking recently about how many times I’ve been shut down in the workplace when I was feeling confident about a topic. We don’t want to work together, we just want to criticize someone’s experience.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Oh boy. This so fits the week I am having.

        Me: The sky is blue.
        Person A: No, it’s not.
        Person B: Are we sure of this?
        Person C: I think we better research this before jumping to conclusions.

        Me: I need a nap.

  45. Master Bean Counter*

    To decorate or not to decorate, that is the question.

    Background info:
    Our office has a long tradition of decorating offices for birthdays. Nobody asks, you just show up and your office/desk has been birthday bombed with streamers, balloons, and what not.
    There is one person primarily behind this, let’s call her Jane. Jane does a great job and takes pride in her decorations. If you’ve spent the year giving Jane a hard time you might come in to find your office filled with balloons. Or something equally over the top, but ultimately harmless.

    Jane turns 40 next week. She has asked for her office not to be decorated. I know Jane is freaking out a bit about the big 4-0. All of the people who she has birthday bombed have been anxiously awaiting this day. Revenge time is near. I believe Jane knows she’s in for over the top stuff this year.

    Should the blessing be given to Birthday bomb Jane, or should I tell them to back off?

    After three years and three office moves I have finally gotten rid of all of the glitter from my things from my first birthday bomb.

    Let them decorate or not?

    1. R*

      I vote not. It’s not nice to let them upset her, even a little, on her birthday. Find another random date and get revenge on Jane then. Like a work anniversary, or national ice cream day, or international pooping unicorns day or something.

    3. secret chart*

      Don’t do it.

      Respecting other people’s choices has to start somewhere. Right now there’s a loop going. Disrupt this loop by respecting Jane’s choices, and hope in the future this leads to a culture change.

      Also, someone should have told Jane to knock it off a while ago. But the solution to that isn’t to take revenge.

        1. secret chart*

          Ah, I misread then. Then I double-down on respecting the opt out, since she’s not had issues with other people opting out.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          If it’s not a problem to opt out, you have to let Jane opt out. Otherwise, it has stopped being ‘good fun.’

          If anyone pushes back, ask why they’d want to make their coworker unhappy – did her bombing make them unhappy? Is it truly ‘not a problem’ to opt out, or have people’s opt out requests been ignored, or did they feel pressured to opt in?

        3. tears of Jupiter*

          I’m confused then. People can opt out, and this is meant to be a good fun thing. But you are considering allowing people to override Jane’s opt out and act in revenge, which is not a fun motivation? What exactly would your reasoning be for that?

          Jane respect it when others opt out. If anyone else doesn’t do likewise, they are a complete jackass.

    4. You can't fire me; I don't work in this van*

      As someone turning 40 in a couple of months, I feel Jane. I lean towards honoring her request, but letting her know that she can’t decorate other people’s workspaces without their permission going forward.

    5. Evil HR Person*

      I say let them – she brought it on herself. But here’s what I know of people: people do for other people what they want done to them. If you suddenly get a surprise for your birthday, that person wants a surprise too. I may be wrong about Jane, of course…

    7. Graciosa*

      I also vote no – this seems like hell to me, and would demonstrate a clear lack of basic respect.

      That said, if you cannot discourage it, you may be able to redirect it – if there is insistence on decorating for celebrations, decorate a common room (break room, conference room or similar). This is much more likely to keep it within bounds everyone can tolerate.

      But I’m completely in agreement that Jane needs to be clearly told that doing to others what she would not want done to her is both disrespectful and unprofessional. It needs to stop.

      1. Master Bean Counter*

        Nobody has minded it so far and Jane has not decorated for those who did not want it. I got her to give up the glitter two years ago…because nobody has time for that nonsense.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Ya know, you sound like you were not real happy about being bday bombed, and you’re not entirely happy with the whole deal (‘revenge’, ‘nonsense’).

          You might want to dig into that – because ‘Jane said no’ should be the last word, without need for questions.

    8. Another JD*

      Don’t do it. Asking to skip the decorations is perfectly reasonable, and the request should be respected no matter who it comes from.

    9. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Does Jane respect it when other people request not to have their spaces decorated?

      If so, then no, definitely do not let them decorate.

      If she does it regardless of the other person’s wishes, well… I know the right advice is still don’t do it, but I’d be a lot more tempted to give her a taste of her own medicine.

    10. MarsJenkar*

      Since you’ve stated elsewhere that she does respect the requests of those who ask to opt out, I’d say that’s one more reason to respect *her* wishes.

    11. Beancounter Eric*

      No to decorating.

      As others have said, she asked to be excluded, she has respected others desires to not have decorations – respect her in this case.

      If it were up to me, birthday recognition in the workplace would be toned down considerably, if not completely eliminated. YMMV.

    12. Parenthetically*

      Not. Allowing people to have their petty/playful revenge at her expense when she has specifically asked not to have her office decorated would be unkind.

    13. Morning Reader*

      Could you do something else to recognize her birthday, other than a decoration bomb? In most of my offices, we have passed around a card for a coworker’s birthday. It’s a little something but not so much in your face. Might be a good precedent to tone down the excess.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      I think it is up to Jane to tell everyone, NOT you. And you can say that, “Jane, it’s up to you to let everyone know.”
      You can refuse to participate yourself but also let her tell everyone.
      If she gets Bday bombed, oh well.

      I don’t like the idea that people are not asked they just show up and their office is covered with stuff. I would find that upsetting. I don’t care for Jane’s double standard, that other people are not asked but SHE gets to request no decorations. I think that in the future there shouldn’t be any more birthday bombings as Jane as shown exactly why not to do it. Not everyone appreciates it and of those who do they may change their minds.

      Try not to get too involved in other people’s learning experiences. This is basic cause and effect. Jane caused this and now she may go through it herself. Maybe she will learn that sometimes people find that birthdays are Not Fun for a variety of reasons. I could be reading this wrong but she sounds like a stubborn person to me.

    15. blaise zamboni*

      It sounds like, since Jane has been respectful of others’ birthday wishes, the “revenge” is more a light-hearted desire to honor the person who usually honors others? In which case, definitely do not decorate her office if she has asked you not to. I think pass around a card and maybe get a cake or some other treat, and present it to her in a low-key way.

      I would take this opportunity to inform/remind everyone that opting out is a valid option, though. If your group is raring to ‘birthday bomb’ her, you can just give them a simple message, “Jane prefers to celebrate her birthday differently this year. We’ll respect her wishes like we respect the wishes of everyone on our team. You can always approach me about what you want for your own celebrations.”

  46. Evil HR Person*

    I’m so demoralized right now… we had a massive lay off about a month ago and the rest of us took a pay cut. Yet, my supervisor says I need to look into agencies that help refugees so we can hire them. I did, and there are only 2 agencies nearby (we’re not exactly a metropolitan area) and the refugees are not interested in doing what we do. But, she has a bee in her bonnet that those are the people we need to hire next. Meanwhile, I’m trying to help others around the office, but I end up bored out of my gourd daily. Plus I’m suffering from some health issues that have me borderline depressed. It’s just a hard time overall. But the refugee issue has me going bonkers. I mean, how do I tell her they’re not calling us back because they don’t want to work with us?? She has ME calling and calling – and I hate that most of all and I don’t want to keep doing it.

    1. WellRed*

      Have you actually and clearly told her they don’t want to work with you? And explain why (if you know). For example, “Refugee Agency A prefers to place their refugees in agricultural businesses, not machine parts.” I wonder if there is some sort of grant or tax break or something if she hires refugees.

    2. Annonno Today*

      You need to explain to her that they’re not interested. Period. You tried, they don’t want to come in, you can’t force them. Maybe find a different track to ride.

    3. Kathenus*

      Two things occurred to me when reading your question. First, and I’m struggling with phrasing this correctly, but making sure that the refugees are viewed as a group of individual people versus one conglomerate is important. If the case is that these agencies posted your availabilities to all of their constituents and no one applied for the position, then maybe phrasing it more to your supervisor along the lines of ‘we’ve advertised our positions at X and Y agencies and none of the refugees they worked with chose to apply for the job’ would be a better way to phrase it. But if there’s an assumption going on, from your companies end or at the agency, that this group of people isn’t interested without it being actually offered to the individuals to decide for themselves, maybe there’s another step that can be taken.

      My second thought is that if you are doing all the steps to get the refugees the information and you have written communication with them or the agencies with them declining, forward this to your supervisor so you can show 1) what you’ve done and 2) that they are directly declining to apply, then ask your supervisor if she has other ideas for how to proceed with this information in hand.

    4. pancakes*

      I’m trying to figure out why someone would do that after layoffs absent a desire to exploit refugees by paying them less than non-refugees. Otherwise it would make more sense to re-hire some of the people who were cut. I think you need to be clear with your supervisor that these calls aren’t being returned because the work isn’t suitable for the groups she’s targeting, and that pestering them isn’t going to make it suitable / make them interested. I think you should look for a new job elsewhere, too. A difficult thing to do even when one isn’t depressed — if there’s a time of day that you tend to feel a bit better or more energized, try to do job-searching then a couple times per week.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      “Boss, I have called x times. They are not interested in what we do. For me to keep calling reflects poorly on our company. I think it’s very unwise to call again.”

      What do you think will happen if she hears you say this? Post some examples here and let’s role play it out.

  47. Justme, The OG*

    So the place that didn’t respond to my email last week when I delayed an email response until the next day and wasn’t available that week? Never got back to me.

      1. Justme, The OG*

        That’s pretty much my thoughts as well. I’m not disappointed at not getting an interview. I’m currently employed and this was just a “sending feelers out” job application.

  48. Nancie*

    AITA?

    Yesterday I was chatting with my boss, Sansa, and Cersei, when Sansa stuck a change jar in my face and started shaking it. I stared at her like she had three heads.

    My boss finally explained that it was Sansa’s curse jar. At this point, Sansa told me that I owed her a dollar for cursing. I told her I was sorry, but I hadn’t been informed of the curse jar rule before. She continued to shake it, until finally my boss pulled out a quarter and tossed it into the jar on my behalf.

    Some context: We all work for the same company, but different departments. We just happen to share an office space, which was the topic of discussion. It’s very common in my boss’s and my department to cuss. A lot. All the way up to the CxO.

    1. secret chart*

      That curse jar thing is very, very weird.

      Also, I’m very curious as to where this money is going. Department parties?

      1. Nancie*

        My boss thinks it funds a candy jar on her desk. A jar that she has offered me candy from a few times, but I don’t think it’s actually an “office” candy jar.

        Sansa and Cersei tend to organize all of the office food activities and decorating “events”, so it might go toward those things, too.

        1. valentine*

          It’s very common in my boss’s and my department to cuss.
          Sansa needs to mind her own business. It’s like decorating your area for sportsball and Sansa popping your balloons.

          I am disappointed she wasn’t putting a curse on you because I was delighted your boss was nonchalant.

    2. Kowalski! Options!*

      NTA. How are you supposed to be bound to a pact of good behaviour that you didn’t know about before?

    3. DC*

      NTA. That was a really weird and rude way of going about it, never mind that she’s acting like a parent or teacher policing behavior.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      NTA. That’s weird and infantalizing, and I’d have serious questions about where the money goes. Are you just paying a coworker for the privilege of using adult words?

    5. Chili*

      NTA! If there had been some sort of meeting or mass email about reducing the amount of swearing, I could see why Sansa would assume you knew what the jar meant and should contribute, but it seems like you were never informed about it? And yeah, I have a lot of questions about where this money is going– does Sansa just get the money? Is she the one behind this initiative and is she doing it in the interest of profit? I think you should ask your boss for more details about the jar and why it came about and try to gauge if you’re expected to comply.

      1. Nancie*

        I don’t even remember! I recall what I was saying, but there are a number of colorful adjectives that I could’ve plugged into that sentence.

    9. Purt's Peas*

      Yeah, you’re not the asshole. Jamming an object right in someone’s face is not a nice thing to do, and you responded perfectly.

    10. College Career Counselor*

      What the F?
      I’d ask for a list of “off-limits” words. And schedule a meeting to discuss the fine schedule, a separate meeting to discuss how the funds will be used, etc. And does bowdlerizing count (“Gosh Darn It”) or using acronyms (BEC), different words (“Oh, SUGAR!”), etc. when the intent is clearly to use somewhat impolite terms? Because if they’re going to start policing language, they really ought to go all in.

      Don’t do any of this, obviously. I’d like to see if the CxO gets told to put in $$. But you’re under no obligation to pay money to someone. If your boss wants to cut down on the swearing, fine. But they can’t require you to pay.

        2. JustaTech*

          B*tch Eating Crackers: an AAM term for a person who you are totally fed up with to the point that them doing something completely innocuous, like eating crackers, sends you into a rage.
          Word is gendered, but the acronym applies to all.

    11. Detective Amy Santiago*

      NTA

      My response would have been “What the F is wrong with you?” and then I would have walked away.

    12. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      So what is Sansa going to do with the fines she collecting?
      Maybe pay for etiquette lessons?
      That needs to be made clear to all.

    13. Jules the 3rd*

      NTA – and the script you’re looking for is “Sansa, you can contribute to your own curse jar all you want, but don’t police my language. That’s inappropriate.”

    14. Jaid*

      FYI: AITA = “Am I The @$$hole” for those not in the know.

      And heck no, you’re not one. I would have tossed in a paper clip.

    15. san junipero*

      NTA. That is SUPER weird. I would have just tried to move on with the conversation when she started shaking it at me.

    16. Parenthetically*

      NTA! And good for you for not giving in.

      “Sansa, we’re adults and allowed to swear. I’m not going to be participating in the swear jar thing.”

      1. Parenthetically*

        NTA = “not the asshole”

        It’s a group of acronyms on the reddit sub “Am I the Asshole” where people ask for input on specific scenarios where they’re not sure if they’re the one being an asshole or not. Other options:

        ESH = “everyone sucks here”
        YTA = “you’re the asshole”

      2. I'm A Little Teapot*

        not the asshole.

        It’s coming from a popular sub-reddit, Am I the Asshole (or maybe the acronym). Feedback provided on reddit is not necessarily reflective of expected behavior in real life.

    19. A Poster Has No Name*

      A curse jar? At work? Fuck that.

      You’re NTA, but Sansa is, as is everyone who doesn’t shut that shit down ASAP.

    20. CM*

      I mean… that would just make me swear more to show her that she couldn’t force me to put money in her jar. But I kind of AM an asshole sometimes.

    21. ...*

      WTF. I would just say extremely cheerfully “Oh I’m actually an adult, so I won’t be participating in that!” as breezily as you would say “I love coffee!”

    22. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      It would have been wonderful if you’d pulled out a $10 bill and proceeded to get your money’s worth.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Mental image: Sylvester Stallone in Demolition Man, collecting his tickets because he doesn’t understand the three seashells.

    23. Not So NewReader*

      A day older and a day wiser, right?
      Bring your own jar and tell her every time she is rude she must put in $10. Then say the money is going to a group who helps children in need. (If money ends up in the jar, make sure it gets to kids somewhere.)

    24. vanillacookies*

      NTA. If swearing bothers her then she can be an adult and actually say something like “Swearing bothers me, could you please not do it in front of me?”

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yup. If something bothers an adult, she talks to the person who does it. They discuss it, and if it’s possible the person changes their behavior. You don’t just implement a swear jar without telling people!

  49. Chili*

    Has anyone else here had trouble asking for help? I’m used to being very, very good at school, work, etc., so I’ve never had to be a person who reaches out for a lot of help. My newish job comes with a lot of things I don’t know and I have to ask for help more than I really would prefer to. I end up trying to muddle through things on my own and then it takes too long and it becomes clear I should have asked a day or two ago. It doesn’t help that my team lead, while very nice, is just so good at what he does that all my questions seem very obvious to him and I have a hard time communicating to him why I’m struggling. He’s also always pressed for time. Anyone able to give advice about how they were able to feel more comfortable asking questions? My direct manager keeps assuring me that I’m doing well, but I can feel that this is a consistent source of tension between me and my team lead and is holding me back from advancement.

    1. Wearing Many Hats*

      This is one of my biggest struggles! I often don’t know who to ask for help, as a lot of my job is figuring things out independently. It’s only in the middle of trying to figure something out that I realize I should have asked X vendor for assistance 2 days ago. I’ve only gotten comfortable because I’ve failed many times and the discomfort of asking is less than the feeling of avoidable failure.

      You can do this!

    2. Quill*

      Been there, didn’t really get out of it until I started jobs where there was no reasonable reason for me to have already learned the procedures.

    3. Chili*

      If it provides any helpful context: I’m an associate software engineer. I used to be in a non-software role where I implemented some light coding to make my job easier and help my department (automating things with python, building and deploying our company webpage). I was good at just figuring things out an implementing them at that level, but I’m way over my head as an actual software engineer dealing with an enterprise product. It doesn’t help that I’m the only woman on my team and the youngest by a solid decade. I’m also the only person of color in the whole engineering department. Everyone here spent their entire teens, twenties and up to now coding and I’m just… here now, having two years of dabbling under my belt. I keep trying to spend time outside of work learning more about computer science and code, but I’m so overwhelmed and tired from work that I end up reading the same lines 8 times or falling asleep at my desk.

      1. Purt's Peas*

        Ooh, this is super helpful context.

        One, I’d ask your boss if you can spend work time on some professional development. If you can, try to focus on the language that you’re using, and on computer science intro & one-level-up-from-that courses from good university’s MOOCs. (Preferably the latter.) It’s actually really hard IMO to learn how to program well from things like LinkedIn Learning, or Google researching. It’s really helpful to know the basics, like, “what’s the heap? Why is this faster than that? What’s a computer doing when it runs code?” before you go on to diving into development concepts like design patterns, event handling, etc.

        Maybe it could help as well if you found a more senior developer to be a mentor for you, and you can go to them for some more basic questions that don’t seem worth it to your TL?

        Two, be reassured that every single person, when they start up with a new job and have to learn a giant codebase, needs some time to get familiar with it. Designing & writing new code is really hard, but so is understanding what’s going on with old code.

        Three, what’s the muddling-through look like? It’s really good to start on a problem (to start muddling :) ) before you ask for help, because it gives you practice starting on things and because you might accidentally solve your own problem. For example, if you were coming to me with a question of “how on earth do I attack this problem?” that would be fine, as long as you’ve 1. reproduced the issue and 2. done some initial debugging. So, for instance, “it looks like the client’s getting the right data, but it’s not showing up. Where do you think I should start looking?” That gives me the opportunity to explain, well, in our product it goes through this workflow, and this step is a good place to look for X, Y, and Z reasons.

        Finally, your team lead’s failure to help you is a HIM problem. Something can be easy for someone, and they can still communicate about it effectively. He isn’t communicating about it effectively, and that is not your fault. You can certainly try to make it easier by pinpointing what you’re having trouble with and the level of the trouble you’re having–basic understanding, implementation problems, deeper understanding issues, whatever–but it’s on him to communicate the answer in a non-patronizing way.

        Good luck! It’s a hard job but pretty rewarding :)

          1. Kes*

            Agree with all this, especially StackOverflow/googling in the immediate term and online free cs fundamentals courses, as professional development if possible or even if not, a bit at a time on your own time is still worthwhile.

            The other thing I would add is to timebox what you’re working on, especially when you’re struggling with something – give yourself a reasonable amount of time to spend looking into things and trying to solve yourself, but impose a limit at which point you think it will be better to just ask someone for help and get an immediate answer rather than keep going down rabbitholes or searching and spending more time. (This will also go hand in hand with estimating how long your work should take which is a skill you’ll need to work on developing anyway as you gain experience)

      2. Reba*

        Ugh, I have the hate-to-ask / don’t-think-to-ask / former overachiever thing, too.

        I think just experience — which has included making mistakes! — has been what helped.

        Also, I know not what you’re asking, but getting more rest is going to help your mental performance more than staying up studying. Good luck!

      3. Engineer Girl*

        As an actual engineer I’m going to provide you with different advice. And this is going to hurt some.

        First off, in spite of the job title, you’re a software coder and not an engineer. This is a critical distinction. You are lacking the underlying knowledge and theory that could help you with the problem solving. It’s that lack of theory that is tripping you up now. There’s too many holes in your knowledge. And by the way, that lack of understanding is also preventing you from asking the right questions to get you the answers you need.

        I would argue that a few professional development courses will not solve your problem. That’s because the professional development courses assume you have the underlying theory and are just tweaking or adding additional knowledge. But you don’t have the basic knowledge to add to it. Your problem is deeper.

        The real fix for this problem is to go back to school and get the knowledge. A structured course will bring you up to speed faster than ad hoc poking on the internet. It will bring you up to speed faster than years of trial and error. You may want to start at a local community college. You may even want to enroll part time at a local university. Community College is the less expensive option and can provide the basics at a cheaper cost.

        There’s a huge difference between coding (which is application oriented) Vs major problem solving (which is engineering oriented). Major problem solving requires an understanding of the underlying rules and structures.

        Until you get the underlying knowledge you will be limited in your advancement opportunities. Your lead is basically telling you that you are doing well considering your current knowledge. But compared to others you are still lacking.

        I encourage you to go back to school.

        Yes it is very hard. Yes it is very worth it!!!

        1. Engineer Girl*

          And here’s the harsh part. The real issue is that you are unqualified for your job. That’s why you are struggling. You need to fix that if you want to stay in the industry.

          Because unqualified female software people will be eaten for breakfast. I don’t want to see that happen to you!

          1. Mechabear*

            This *is* harsh, and unfairly so, I think. Presumably Chili’s supervisors think she’s qualified for her job, or they wouldn’t have hired her. I agree with Kes and Purt’s Peas’ advice above. I have a CS minor, and I have to say, I’ve used the stuff I’ve learned on my own and on the job more than I’ve ever used anything I learned in school. This will vary, of course, depending on the curriculum and the type of engineer you are, but I definitely don’t think going back to school should be your first move. Think of every mediocre white man who went thru a 6 week bootcamp and now calls themself an engineer – if they’re qualified so are you. I’ve worked with a decent number of new devs and the ones who don’t know what they don’t know are always the most dangerous/insufferable, so you may even have an edge there. Lastly, everyone was new once, and even seasoned engineers (myself included) make big, dumb mistakes. It’s late now, but if you want to talk more, message me tomorrow. I feel very strongly that tech needs less of this sort of gatekeeping.

            1. Engineer Girl*

              Computer science is not the same as software engineering. And going through 6 weeks of boot camp is never ever engineering (a four year degree). And I would say they are NOT qualified after 6 weeks. I say this with over 30 years of software engineering behind me. Coding and engineering are two different things. Coding is a very small subset of engineering. Boot camps are great for coding. They are terrible and grossly insufficient for engineering.

              I think Chili’s supervisors gave her a chance because she showed real talent with the web development. But web development isn’t engineering and her knowledge base is insufficient for the current assignment.
              I think she needs to fill that knowledge gap with some basic classes to start.

              To call this gatekeeping is ridiculous. To equate a 6 week boot camp with a 4 year degree is ridiculous. You’re showing some real Dunning Kruger by equating the two.

              I want Chili to succeed and in order to do that she will need to fill in the knowledge holes.

            2. Engineer Girl*

              And by the way, someone calling themselves an engineer after a 6 week code boot camp is the same as a lab tech calling themselves a doctor. They aren’t the same. And while a tech can outperform the doctor in the lab, their scope of knowledge is insufficient for actual medical practice.

              It’s all about scope and depth of knowledge.

            4. Chili*

              I do think Engineer Girl did cross into “Way harsh, Tai” territory when she told me I was unqualified for my job. For someone who already has quite a bit of imposter syndrome (again, woman of color in a sea of white dudes), that wasn’t a cool thing to hear. But I do think the intention of the comment was kind– I think the general point was to say that I am put in a tough situation that anyone would struggle with.

              I talked to my team lead and they were really supportive and we’re going to start having one on ones and more time taken out of my week for learning. I think he’s used to managing mature teams, so having a newbie has been a change. I have throughout my life tended to be someone who doesn’t need a lot of guidance, which has been something all my bosses like and compliment me on, but it tends to foster this situation where I actually do need *some* guidance and people forget that they actually should be available for this.

    4. juliebulie*

      I am terrible at asking for help, both at work and in my personal life. When I broke my foot and couldn’t do a lot of things for myself, I felt humiliated having to ask people to help me.

      But if you mean asking questions at work, I’ve never had any trouble with that! The one thing I do is show that I’ve already tried several sensible things and consulted several reasonable sources before asking a coworker. I can’t stand when someone asks me a question that I know for sure they could have found by either searching their email or google.

      1. Chili*

        I do always try to demonstrate that I’ve tried several sensible things and looked for resources, but the issue I’m finding is that every question I ask further reveals my dearth of knowledge/experience. I gave more context above that I’m an associate (junior-level) software engineer. So basically, the answer to a lot of my questions is “understand more of the fundamentals of computer science,” which I am trying to do, but I can’t possibly learn a semester’s worth of computer science before the end of the week when an assignment is due.

        1. juliebulie*

          Well yeah, it helps when people are supportive! It sounds like people are expecting you to learn more, but aren’t providing you with (or pointing you to) the resources to do so.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      30 years of job here, and I still have trouble with it sometimes.
      1) Def cut yourself slack. You’re new. You’re learning. You have time to learn.
      2) You are now in Geek Culture, which has 2 opposing core tenets: I: Try to figure it out! and II: I love to share what I know! This means:
      a) Check documentation before you ask a question. When you ask, say, “I looked in X, Y” or “I tried A, B” as a signal that you are learning on your own
      b) Once you’ve checked that the answer isn’t obvious, you can ask any question, once, and people will switch into ‘let me share what I know!’ mode. Write down your questions and take notes on the answers. Keep a notebook or text file, search for the question before you ask it next time.
      c) Ask your peers! They will want to show off.
      d) Trust your team lead to tell you if he’s busy.

      The time when I most fail at asking for help is with deadlines, esp since my job doesn’t have many, it’s all ‘five different things, ASAP’ and I have to juggle priorities. I need to get better at listing my tasks and sharing that with my boss and team lead. Writing code, you have deadlines, and hopefully you’re in an Agile situation where you can talk daily with the team. Make your daily reports as accurate as you can – if you’re estimating time, spend some time comparing how much you estimated you’d complete vs how much you actually completed, and use that to improve your daily reports, and identify if you’re not making deadlines. Your team lead can help you with that – it’s a huge part of their job.

      In this situation, your identity as female and PoC may actually help – they’re going to want to keep you around for the diversity boost. Yeah, there may be some guys who are creeps / jerks, but at the coding level, my experience has been that 90% of the people will just accept you as ‘Geek!’. Once you’ve been there for 6 – 12 mo, try looking for an area where you can focus and become the local expert (eg, implementing analytics or cloud connections). Ask the team lead if there’s an area he thinks the team needs and doesn’t have well covered.

      I was team lead for an all male tech support team for a year or two in the early 90s; had to turn down a few date requests, but they all knew who to ask for modem strings… Still friends with five of the 15 techs, and with a sixth until his death earlier this year. It did help that I took on a ‘One of the Boys’ persona – dressed in pants / vests to downplay gender, never never never dated anyone at work, etc. Also helped that two of those five are gay, and were out at the time. I had an instant safe zone.

      I know how you feel about studying. I’ve been on Ch 4 of the Python book for a month now.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        From your last comment above mine, you are already doing a, and maybe the challenge is ‘at what point do I stop with a and move to asking questions’: Look for 10 minutes or in 2 places. Set a timer if you need. Then go ask.

    6. Double A*

      Well, I’m a teacher, so a common truth is that students who don’t ask questions often don’t know what they’re doing. The students who ask good questions are the ones who impress me the most.

      In general, asking good questions will get you noticed. It shows you are engaged, paying attention, and on-top of things. It allows your boss to gauge where you’re at and better evaluated your performance.

      Not asking questions can actually make you appear incompetent, defensive, and difficult. People who don’t ask questions drive me nuts because it’s very difficult to get a sense of what they know and understand, and they’re also indicating they will be difficult to coach.

      Here are some tips:
      -Try to set up a regular meeting with your lead where you can ask for help and questions.
      -Lay out the steps you’ve taken to solve the problem yourself.
      -Ask for coaching about your reaching out for help. “Let me know if these questions seem off-base or if there’s anything I should be asking about that I’m missing.”

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Why do you have to communicate to your boss WHY you are struggling? You are new. That explains it.
      Why not just accept the answer for the current question and vow not to ask that particular question again.

      I am a bit concerned where you say you think it is holding you back from advancement. This is a newish job ,right? So why would advancement be on the horizon so soon? What do you see that is passing you by? Serious, not snark.

      You can keep a note book for the trickier recurring stuff. Do like a journal type of thing. Mine is alphabetized in an index. I give each note a title. I put the title in the index with the page number. The on that page I write out what I want to remember with the title and put a date on it so I can tell if it’s old advice and maybe not useful anymore.

      You say your supervisor is nice but you feel tension. Why not ask him for resources for the recurring areas you have difficulty with? And develop a resource list. I have several. I have bookmarks, of course. And I also have contacts that I can call for information. I have been at this job for years so my contact pages have expanded to many pages. And I also have manuals I can look at.

      One of the biggest frustrations I faced as a supervisor was telling people they were doing fine and some people just would not settle themselves. If your boss’ words do not console you, then kick up your game. Get some books or something online and read at night when you are at home. Read more often than not and read for as long as it takes you to start to feel differently. When another person’s words cannot console us, our next step is to take action to do something to buoy ourselves up.

  50. Librarian of SHIELD*

    So, I work with people who seem to be totally oblivious to the things that are happening around them. And it is driving me completely bonkers. I have used my words. I have had the in-the-moment conversations AND the big picture conversations. I have explained how their not noticing things, or noticing things and not helping with them, affect my and other staff’s ability to get our jobs done. I have done everything short of writing a song and choreographing a dance routine. But in the end humans are humans and they’re not going to change how they operate if they don’t want to. (And one of the people on this list is my boss, so she’s certainly not going to be any help in this effort.)

    But things have to get done. If nobody cleans up those staples all over the floor in the kids’ room, somebody could get hurt. If the last person who had a program in the storytime room doesn’t put the tables and chairs away, somebody else is going to have to do it before they’re able to do their own work. I feel like I’m a cartoon character running behind my coworkers with a giant broom and dustpan cleaning up the chaos they leave in their wake.

    So, given that there’s really nothing to be done about the coworkers, how do I keep from losing my whole entire mind?

    1. JimmyJab*

      Do you have authority over either these people or the spaces they are neglecting? Assuming not I would go to a manager and point out the issues and have someone with authority speak to the offenders. I don’t know how to not go crazy about it, other than just don’t clean up after them (perhaps other than in literally dangerous situations such as staples).

    2. Evil HR Person*

      Are these people still in the building when you find the rooms messed up, etc? I would go to them and flat-out say “you left a mess and I need the room now. Please pick it up now.” I know… I repeated myself. I would definitely not pick up after them, or help, and make them do it themselves – bug until it’s done. But, as you can see, I’m evil and I don’t care if I rub people the wrong way. People take advantage of how nice I am and get (momentarily) upset when my not-so-nice side comes out. It’s on them, at that point. When they finish doing what I’ve *told* them to do, I thank them and continue with my niceties. You’ll probably have to repeat yourself a couple of times before everyone talks about how you won’t put up with messy rooms and, so that they don’t have to hear you, they’ll pick up without having to be told.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I’ve tried this route. But the response is usually “I’m on my way” or “I’ll be there in a minute,” and then they just never show up and since the class starts at a fixed time, I just eventually have to do it myself.

        1. Blueberry Girl*

          What would the consequence be if you didn’t do it? I ask this not sarcastically, but with total seriousness. I have anxiety and I think of responsibility as a basketball. It gets thrown into the room and the person with the most anxiety picks it up. But it might not be your basketball, so what happens if you don’t pick it up? Yes, there are dangerous situations where you have to, but what would happen if you chose not to otherwise? What would the consequences be? Sometimes, you have to learn (and I have struggled to learn this) that you can let people fail and even have that impact other people. It is okay. You do not have to save everything or everyone.

          1. Librarian of SHIELD*

            In the case of the furniture in the storytime room, the consequence of me not taking care of it is that storytime can’t happen. I very literally cannot do my job if my coworker does not do hers. My boss is pretty hands off, but I’m willing to bet I would not be off the hook if I declined to present storytime because Florence didn’t put away the tables and chairs from yesterday’s computer class.

            This is essentially my problem. I can’t do my work if they don’t do theirs, my boss won’t make them do their work, and thus I am stuck.

            I’m pretty clear in my own mind that I’ve done all I can do to try and change the situation and it’s just not ever going to change as long as the team setup stays the way it is. But I’m frustrated nearly the entire time I’m at work and that’s not a healthy state to be in, so I’m really just looking for tips on how to cut through the frustration.

        2. nonymous*

          Take a picture in the messy state and send it to your boss. Depending on your relationship, this can be via IM in the moment or summarized as part of a weekly check in. I would suggest framing the situation as an inquiry into what improvements can be made to the workflow.

          Assuming that you are able to put the room to rights before you leave, what is different about your process, and what are the pros/cons of each approach? My former SIL was a PT that did home visits and she would spend hours doing paperwork in the evenings. It turned out that her employer expected her to do visit + documentation in the hr allotted to the patient, and she held firm to the belief that her patients were paying for the full hour so they deserved that as hands-on care. I can certainly see the merits of both perspectives, but it is worth examining what the org actually prioritizes, and remember actions speak louder than words. Maybe the new normal is that everyone breaks down the previous class as part of their own setup?

    4. Kathenus*

      You may have done this already, but from reading your post, I see that you’ve being clear how these things they do (or don’t d0) are impacting you. But are you explicitly telling them what they need to do as well? And maybe having a written checklist/set of expectations so that everyone knows what’s expected to be done and when. So if cleaning up the staples after a class before the next one is a requirement that is understood, then if someone doesn’t do it it’s a lot easier to hold them accountable and if needed use it for documentation on performance issues. So adding clear duties and expectations might help.

      And agree with other comments that you might need to NOT do it for them – someone comes into a dirty room and complains, let the person who dropped the ball take the heat for it. If they have no consequences for their actions and you do things for them, they may never have a reason to change. Crazy frustrating and I empathize, but stop bailing them out and the behavior is more likely to improve.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      This is what poor management looks like.
      Stop cleaning up messes that are not your responsibility in the first place.
      Make sure your one square foot of the work place is always picked up before you leave.

      If you keep doing all the fixes nothing is ever going to change.

    7. Anonymouse for this*

      Can you be at the room just as they are finishing their session and then as they go to leave the mess you can tell them they need to clean up before they leave. Maybe doing that in real time would have an effect?

    8. Tabby Baltimore*

      I suppose you could go over your boss’ head to your library branch’s branch manager (assuming your boss is not that person), with the cellphone photos you have taken, and ask for help with how to manage up. I’m sorry, this is tough.

    9. Also frustrated*

      If making it into someone’s else problem isn’t working to resolve (which I agree that you should keep trying, if you can), can you reframe it as your job in your head to ease the frustration? Like – Setting up for story time is your job, and part of setting up for story time is breaking down the previous set up. I agree that it is frustrating as hell when it feels like grown adults cannot be bothered to do basic things like clean up after themselves but it sounds like it would cause less mental strain to plan for “I have to do two things to prep for story time” and occasionally be pleased if you only have to do one.

      But also, do what everyone says above to get your manager to actually manage.

  51. AnonyMs.*

    I’m having a bit of a career crisis. It doesn’t help that I’m in a slow period at work right now, and when that happens the anxiety ramps up and my brain tells me awful things. I am taking steps, though– I have applied to a couple of jobs (no response, but I am trying not to get too upset about that) and I hired a career coach to help me really focus on what I want for my next career move.

    I had a great, career-building job for over 8 years, rose to Director level, felt great about myself but not so great about my work and where things were going. So about 6 years ago I moved from the client side to the consultant/vendor side of my field, and that has turned out to be not so great, though I have developed some really critical skills. I miss working for a big brand. I miss having deep knowledge about my brand rather than superficial knowledge of a whole lot of clients’ brands. To get a bit more specific, I’m in consumer research, both quantitative and qualitative. Most of my work is quant-based. Over the years, I have developed very good project management skills (though not PMP level) and even better presentation skills. I haaaaate being in the back office and I love talking to people. I am more of a writer/presenter than a numbers type, great at disseminating information but without advanced data skills. But I also hate sales because I am not a hustler at all; I’m the person you go to when you want to know stuff. More of a teacher than a salesperson. I have some management experience and I really want more; one of the most dissatisfying things about my current job is that I have no opportunities to manage people and I used to enjoy having a team.

    One of the things I’m grappling with is whether to switch gears entirely. I’ve been browsing postings on LinkedIn and thinking that maybe I would be better suited for a Customer Success role. Does anyone work for or with Customer Success Managers and can tell me a little bit about what it’s like? The most important thing for me is to get out of the data crunching; I can talk about the data, how we get to the results, and I can talk about the results themselves.

    Or maybe someone has another idea for me… I’m open to almost anything (except Sales, see above!). I know that’s hard without knowing me and without getting more details, but it doesn’t hurt to throw that out in this type of forum. :)

    1. Adlib*

      I’ve never done Customer Success as a role, but I have worked with a few so can give you an idea of what that’s like. (I myself might like to do it someday, honestly.)

      It’s a little like project management. You normally get your clients from project managers or whoever does the implementation and/or sale. I’m in systems and data so when we finished implementation with the vendor’s project team, we were assigned a Customer Success Manager. I can tell you that it helps to be very familiar with whatever it is your company sells whether that’s a system or a product. (I realize this can be taught, but if you happen to be familiar as a client as well, that helps understand the other side of things.) If you like working with people, that’s a great quality to have! Just be prepared for all kinds of clients from the easy to manage to insanely difficult.

      Anyway, I know that’s not a lot, but I wish you luck in your search! I’m kind of in the same spot as well. Like, I need to do something else, but I don’t know what yet.

      1. Adlib*

        Oh, and generally, you manage whatever those clients need whether it’s chasing down support tickets, answering questions, being a sounding board, knowing their history with the product, setting up meetings with others if needed, being a liaison to other parts of the company as needed, or whatever.

    2. Clever username goes here*

      Oh me! I’m a Customer Solutions Manager. I used to work for a large vendor company and was hired by a very small company to apply the “big-company” customer service principles with their clients. Let me tell you, this job has (so far, it’s been like 4 months) involved every skill set I have. I’m the primary point of contact for all of our customers, for complaints, concerns or questions. I run projects (currently in a regulatory submission to the FDA) which is essentially herding cats and making sure people deliver on time. I liaise between our departments (R&D, manufacturing, platform dev, software dev) and the sales/operations team. I go onsite to do actual work, too, which I love (I hold an industry certification and have years of experience in my field). I do presentations, customer training, go to conferences, assist with marketing (we have no actual department), etc etc. It’s stressful and demanding, but I love being the “face” of the company. Way more interesting than being tied to a desk 8 hours a day. Plus, there is the option for remote/WFH once I have my feet under me.

      Sorry for the wall of text!

  53. MissGirl*

    I wanted to share a good company story since we see so much of the bad. My neighbor was diagnosed with a rapidly growing brain tumor. She works part time and her husband was out of work, so no insurance.

    The week of her surgery was her husband’s start date at a new job. When he reached out to them to request he start a few days later, they said, no problem. Then they said, we’re entering your start date as the first of the month (two weeks prior) so that you get an extra paycheck and your insurance starts earlier.

    And the best news is, the doctors were able to remove the entire mass and it’s not cancerous. Happy Friday, all.

    11. Mimmy*

      Wonderful! Thank you so much for sharing. So nice to read about the good in people, even employers.

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I hope he posts THAT to Glass Door…it’ll really put short-sighted, penny-pinching companies into perspective.

  54. DC*

    After a frank conversation with my boss, and a week of trying to add to my thinking the advice of folks from last week that my boss’s micromanaging is not my fault but their issue, I’m still frustrated and not wanting to get out of bed every day with this brand new job.

    I’m considering trying to find something quickly, but I’m unsure how to tell if that’s a good idea. My biggest thing is 1. feeling like a failure, and 2. I love the rest of the people I work with, and do really like them all. In particular, I’d love to have Grandboss as a mentor. Even boss isn’t a bad person. They’re just a bad boss.

    Has anyone looked for a job almost immediately after taking something? How did it go? How did you frame it in interviews?

    1. Annie Moose*

      If you’ve been at the job less than a couple of months, I would leave it off my resume altogether. It doesn’t look good to have a very short stay on your resume (unless, perhaps, if you work in an industry where very short contracts are normal?).

      1. DC*

        It’s not on my resume at all right now, so I will keep it off.

        For orgs that ask you to fill out your last seven years of job history, do you leave it off there?

    2. juliebulie*

      Ha ha, my first job out of college, starting July 3, 1989. When I got home from work that day, I looked at the want ads in the newspaper.

      I was let go three months later. It was a relief. I already had some irons in the fire; I followed up with them (you could do that in those days) and had a really great job a few weeks later.

      I didn’t mind having the short-lived bad job on my resume, because it showed that it didn’t take me too long to get a job after I graduated, and was soon followed by a great job. Also, the short-time employer was somewhat notorious, so the fact that I hadn’t stayed there long was really not a problem. (If anything, it might look bad if someone stayed there too long! Like they had no ambition or self-esteem.)

    3. HamlindigoBlue*

      I started a new job in January after leaving my previous job after just a year. I found out about 4 months in that the manager was not much of a manager, and, as a result, the team was a hot mess. I tried to stick it out because I don’t want two short stints in a row on my resume, but I just couldn’t do it after the last debacle happened about a month ago. I found out that my manager had no problem throwing his entire department under the bus just to try to save face after he made an extraordinarily poor and self-serving decision that spectacularly backfired. I would sit in my car before work each morning having to will myself to going inside the building to put myself through another day of dysfunction.

      I casually started looking for another job, meaning I put my career related online accounts on public with the assumption that not much would happen right away. Almost immediately, I was contacted with a really good opportunity. I think I’ll be extended an offer early next week. When I was asked about why I was looking, I just said that the culture was not a good fit, and I was looking for a more collaborative environment. Nobody really asked me to elaborate beyond that.

      I would leave it off the resume, but if it somehow comes up, just be honest. You’re not badmouthing anyone or anything if you cite a culture mismatch.

    4. It’s ok to jump ship*

      I did exactly what you described. I had been at one place for a significant amount of time, took another job and within 2 months realized that my everyday dread and frustration were not “I don’t like change” and need to get used to it but that my new job was objectively awful and particularly a bad fit for me. I did have my new job on my resume because it had a common title for my industry whereas my previous job did not. I got pretty good bites on my resume and made sure to talk about why I was leaving in interviews, framing it as “Here’s why my current company is not a good fit *for me* and here’s why yours is. I learned a lot from this experience and now I know what to look for so I can stay long term”. It did help that I could point out some of the objectively terrible parts in a matter of fact tone (like we didn’t have high speed internet and my job was maintaining a SAAS product) and that it was an overall culture mismatch and I wasn’t applying anywhere with a similar culture. I got a great job 4 months later that I’ve been at for a number of years.

  55. Don't Ask Me About My Health, Please*

    I had posted a few months back about how to avoid talking about my cancer diagnosis with all and sundry while working in a visible position at a large medical university. My small team and I came up with a plan that really worked. I told only the people who really needed to know before my surgery. After I went on leave, my team told everyone who asked that I was out for cancer surgery and recovery. They also emphasized that I was very stressed by the whole thing and that I was asking everyone to not ask about it. I was gone six weeks, which was more than enough time for the word to get around to everyone, and so far everyone has abided by the “general well wishes are okay, but don’t ask” request.

    Health wise, I am pleased to report that we seemed to catch it early and get everything out in surgery. Because it is a virulent type of cancer, I am doing three months chemo just to be safe, but I have a 95% chance of still being cancer free in five years.

    4. Massive Dynamic*

      That’s great about your surgery and prognosis, and I’m glad that your team helped you out with the news!

  56. iantrovert (they/them)*

    My remote teammate’s young kid has cancer. Was in remission but it’s back. Other than being understanding and emphasizing “family first,” is there anything I can do? It’s a shitty situation and I want to help but not be creepy/weird/inappropriate.

    1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      Personally, I would see if I could send them a gift card for a meal somewhere in their town. Just someplace where they can go out and eat some food and not have to worry about the cost, in the midst of what I presume will be horrendous medical bills and endless stress.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yes, or send snacks. My co-worker’s mother passed away after a long and stressful illness with my co-worker as her primary caretaker, and we’re pretty close, so I knew that flowers would be pretty but a basket of snacks would be more practical.

      2. Reba*

        I recently contributed to a big Postmates (takeout delivery) gift card for a coworker going through something similar. I think it’s a great substitute for a meal train type effort.

    2. Quill*

      We sent cookies and some very quiet legos for my neighbor whose kid needed surgery, for remote I think a nice get well card with a gift card to a restaurant / grocery store / gas station would be best. (Restaurants = you don’t have to cook but you may have to be presentable, plus you gotta guess the type. Grocery stores = always useful, often have pre-prepped options that can be carried out. Gas station = worrying less about the price of driving to appointments.)

    3. NothingIsLittle*

      As a teammate, not a manager, I think being understanding and picking up the slack if there’s a problem are the best things you can do.

      If you were in a managerial or oversight position, I’d offer to help arrange for intermittent medical leave or an equivalent that made sense given the specifics.

    4. Policy wonk*

      Agree with the food basket idea. And if this person has more than one kid, books or gift cards for the other kids, too. When one child in a family is very ill the other ones often feel invisible.

    5. Ranon*

      If you want to help because you need to do something but don’t feel like you need him to know, necessarily, there’s a drug that’s used in nearly all childhood chemo protocols called vincristine that is experiencing shortages since one of the two US manufacturers making it stopped- you could call your reps or make a citizen petition to the FDA asking them to take action to alleviate the shortage. It’s not direct help but it is an action to take if you’re feeling helpless.

  57. many bells down*

    I posted a couple weeks ago that I’d gotten a new job after months of looking aaaanddd now I’ve had 4 more job offers in the last two weeks lol. Everyone wants you when you’re taken.

    Regarding the question about putting voice work on a resume – what if you did voice work but ended up not getting credited for it?
    About 10 years ago I recorded a bunch of dialogue for a game based on a TV show. I am a pretty good mimic and I imitated a specific actor’s voice for it, and I got kudos from the studio for my performance (they thought I was a professional who’d been doing voice work for years.) Then it ended up that the ONLY actor from the show who signed on to do the game was the one I’d recorded, so none of my work was actually used.
    Probably can’t use that on my resume but I like the idea of using it. I was very proud of that work.

    1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      Why not?
      Kevin Costner, when he was an unknown, was in The Big Chill. Don’t recall him? Nobody does. He played the classmate who committed suicide. ALL of his scenes were cut from the final film.

      Yet, folks credit him for being in the picture.

      I would think your work should be recognized -regardless of whether it was used in the final product.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        If you did the work; you can put it on your resume, especially if you’re proud of that work.
        P.S. Didn’t we see Costner’s wrist with fake scars in a brief scene?

    2. san junipero*

      Hmm. How would you actually communicate it on your resume? I feel like it would be hard to verify in practice.

      1. many bells down*

        Especially since the game company no longer exists. The GAME is probably still out there somewhere, but the developer went under.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I’d put it in your list of accomplishments for that job as “Voiceovers for $Game (uncredited)” even if they didn’t give credit to regular staff not on acting contract. Kind of like how publishers often/usually don’t print credits for the copy editors and design team in their novels.

  58. Eric*

    Just got 3 cold calls in a row (I didn’t pick up, he immediately called again) from a recruiter because I didn’t respond to his emails. I wonder if he figured out why?

    2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Ooh, was it because you’re testing to see if he has enough gumption and you’re planning to say nice things to him on his fourth cold call of the day to congratulate him? I bet that’s it.

  59. Aquawoman*

    I have a new report (yay, have been super understaffed) and he just graduated from grad school, first full-time professional position. He is on the opposite end of all aspects of communication style from me, I’m brief and direct. We do a lot of communicating by email in my office, and we don’t use IMs so sometimes email takes a function like that. It’s common for someone to send me something to review or a question by email. After I respond, they will often will shoot back “Thanks!” or “Yeah, that’s a good approach,” or brief things of that nature. New Guy will basically send me a thank-you note like your mama taught you to do for your Xmas presents, with a salutation, several sentences and a signature. It is bugging me. I don’t fault him, he is just super polite and nice and I get it, it’s his style. But as an introverted and probably autistic person, pleasantries don’t do anything for me, and as a person with ADHD who gets a lot of email, I feel like I have to read the thing to see if there is any substantive content and it feels distracting. Would it be petty of me to ask him to stop? ALso trying to think how to phrase it (“Our office culture uses email a lot like instant messaging so just a quick “thanks” is fine”? (honestly, I don’t even need that but I can at least dlete them in 3 seconds or less!))

    1. secret chart*

      I’d say let it go. It’s his first post-graduation job, he’s probably still finding his feet. Unless his e-mails are so long that you can’t figure out what he means to say, just skim them and chalk it up to that this dude wants to use 5 paragraphs to say “can we meet later”.

      1. Reba*

        I disagree! Why not help him find his feet on this? It’s a fairly low-stakes thing to talk about, but it shouldn’t be hard to change. And, since Aquawoman will not be the only person to notice this, it will be helpful to the newbie to have this pointed out before it affects other people’s perceptions of him. You don’t want people to roll their eyes when they get your emails — or to just stop reading them, or to miss the key info when they are skimming…

        1. Kes*

          I’m with Reba, because it is his first job he’s probably still learning norms and it would be helpful to explain this to him. I would just phrase it that people are busy and it’s important to be concise and put important information up front or a list so readers are less likely miss things

    2. Dittany*

      If his preferred mode of communication is out of step with how the rest of the office does it, that’s useful feedback to give! Communicating with the appropriate level of formality depending on the context is a really, really important professional skill to have; while being overly casual can make you seem immature or disrespectful, being overly FORMAL can seem awkward or (as you observed) wasting the other person’s time on formalities that aren’t actually warranted in that situation. It’s not a career-breaker, but it’ll hinder his ability to communicate effectively. I wouldn’t make a big deal out of it, but you’ll be doing him a favor if you give him that feedback.

    3. juliebulie*

      Since he reports to you, I think you could point out the office culture and explain that it’s very important to be concise.

      I use to have a much more verbose style and then was miffed when no one seemed to read my emails. When I realized that I was using way too many of my words, I started getting better results.

    4. Policy wonk*

      Those right out of school are accustomed to writing long papers, wordy essays and the like. To me this is the hardest part of hiring someone right out of grad school. I tell them I need three bullet points and instead I get a three page paper. Just tell him he needs to adapt his writing style, and give him pointers. Your suggestec comment on e-mails is good – I’d use that and a couple of other examples. And give hi examples of the writing style you fo want. It will help you both.

  60. When or How to Give Up on Toxic Environment*

    I’ve worked at my workplace for 10 years. Have had the same manager the whole time, and he is showing no signs of retiring or leaving. I like the actual work, and there are not a lot of other jobs in my area in this field that I am certified for (it’s a specialized healthcare niche in an area that is not exactly overloaded with hospitals/practitioners). But the management is just very weak and, like a lot of places, focuses entirely on keeping costs down, which mainly means keeping staffing below necessary levels. I was promoted last year and although I am not a supervisor and don’t have disciplinary authority, I am facing major issues every day, from staff members not following protocols (which ends up costing us in supplies or risks us failing inspections) to equipment breaking down to endless paperwork that I don’t have enough time to complete because of all the other issues. I’m exhausted. But I am not seeing anything else to apply for. If I could count on management to take these concerns seriously, I’d talk to them, but their answer is very likely to be some combination of mandatory OT (when I’m already worn out and fed up) and magical thinking (“I’m sure if you work smarter, not harder, you’ll find the time to get it all done” or “Well, the staff can’t be expected to remember basic protocols, so you just go ahead and follow behind them and fix it”). Which means it is probably time to just leave. Without other possibilities around to apply for, and a family with kids in school here locally, any ideas??

    2. Kes*

      To be honest, at that point I would consider prioritizing (you can’t get it all done, so identify what is most important and focus on that), and to a certain extent, disengaging – do your job as best you can, but try not to let yourself get overly invested and leave when you leave.
      Other than that, if you do want to leave, I agree with Snorkmaiden that it sounds like you might need to consider moving.

  61. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    I’m still waiting to hear back from a job that I did a second round interview for two weeks ago. I absolutely nailed the first round, with the hiring manager, then I think did like A-/B+ with the second round, which was with people who would be my coworkers and then the Big Boss. I don’t think I absolutely gave the job away or anything, but I could feel myself rambling a bit, I felt like I slightly fumbled a question or two, and overall these folks were harder to read than the hiring manager, who was obviously impressed with me and noted that I have skills that are on the “bonus” list for them. At the end of the interview with Big Boss, she told me that HR might be slow, which I can parse 8,000 different ways in my favor or just neutral right now.

    They told me they had two more candidates to interview last week and I should expect to hear back this week. I know that I am still in the window, they haven’t told me no yet, there could be other stuff going on, etc., but god am I nervous. I would love this job, and frankly it would really feel like a blessing after what has been a hellish year at work for me. I’ve been so nervous that my stomach is upset and my back is in huge knots. I’m continuing to search for and apply to relevant positions, but ugh am I ready to be done. Any thoughts, commiseration, or coping mechanisms?

      1. 30 Years in the Biz*

        I’m so sorry! I think this means there’s something better waiting for you out there – you weren’t meant to get this position. This has happened to me twice: Really disappointed that a job I felt I was perfect for didn’t come through and then weeks later I was offered and accepted a better job. Hold on and make finding your perfect job your new job. It will be so satisfying when you succeed – and you will succeed!

        1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

          Thank you. I needed this. But I might also go cry in the alley before I get on the train home from work today

  62. video game anon*

    I work for a small video game company in the US. I now have both a coworker named Mario and a coworker named Luigi.

    That is all.

    3. A Poster Has No Name*

      I would recommend the company find a way to use them in marketing materials, but Nintendo would just swoop in and wreck the company, so nevermind.

      That is awesome, though.

    7. Vicky Austin*

      I had a childhood friend who had two uncles named Mario and Luigi, and we were children in the 1980’s/early 1990’s, when Nintendo first became popular.

  63. TheAdmin*

    This is a very low-stakes question, but I’d like some advice!

    I’m an executive assistant. My boss usually has me proofread her documents (and sometimes emails) before she finalizes them. One thing she never has me look at, however, is her out-of-office auto-reply, and it ALWAYS has typos. Often it’s just a minor spelling/grammatical error, but sometimes it’ll include incomplete sentences; you can tell she was in the middle of a thought and then just stopped typing… She’s usually in a hurry to get out the door, and I’m guessing it’s one of the last things she does before she leaves, so it’s probably rushed.

    Do I point this out to her; and if yes, how do I tactfully bring it up? I was thinking I could offer to draft some auto-reply templates that she just needs to plug dates into, or maybe since I know when she’s going to be out of the office, I could preemptively write an auto-reply for her and share it with her before she leaves?

    1. Dittany*

      Just be matter-of-fact about it. She obviously cares about not sending things out the door with typos, so she’d probably appreciate you pointing out that there are typos in messages that will be sent to people outside of the organization who email her when she’s away. (And I can’t imagine that she’d object to having templates to c & p instead of having to write them herself every time.)

    2. SomebodyElse*

      I would bring it up the next time she asks you to proof something. A couple of thoughts… I was that person once. I would literally be packing up my stuff trying to write that damn out of office and make all kinds of mistakes.

      A couple of things that have helped.

      I now use templates. I have one for PTO, one for work travel, one for work workshops/long meetings. Then all I have to do is plug in the dates.

      The other thing is I love that you can schedule when the OOO msg is sent. So it doesn’t have to be the last thing. I can do it really any time leading up to my time away and just set the dates/times for when I need.

    3. Cats and dogs*

      I like the idea of offering when you know she is leaving. Just send her something she can cut and paste. I’d say do it twice and she will come to expect it. I bet she will be super appreciative. You don’t need to comment on her typos!

  64. A Girl Who Has (92%) of Everything*

    I recently found out that I’m getting paid less than a coworker who has a junior role & title than me. The coworker was brought on a few months after me at a much higher rate for a comparable role (almost 20% more) and, in spite of a subsequent promotion and two raises on my end, is still getting paid about 8% more than me. I did negotiate when I was hired but was given no wiggle room at all. I’ve spoken to my manager and grandboss about this, and they acknowledge that this isn’t seem right but both indicated that they are a bit hamstrung by HR. They’re pushing the issue higher but warned that this would take a while to resolve.

    They’ve asked me if there is anything, save additional compensation, that they can do at this time to make things seem “more fair.” I’m honestly stumped as to what to ask for here – the benefits are great (more time off than I use most years), I already work remotely full-time, my work load is manageable and I have good stretch projects, I have support for professional development, and it’s really my dream job in so many ways. It’s a nonprofit and I knew I was a bit underpaid compared to what I might make at a larger institution or the private sector, a trade-off I was OK with, but finding out that I’m underpaid compared to my junior coworker really sucks.

    So, what would you ask for?

    1. NothingIsLittle*

      I’m not sure of the specifics, but if you’d both be assigned or be competing for the same projects, I’d ask to have the first choice on those projects. Given that someone is favoring him already (given the pay rate situation), I think it would make sense for you to be able to ensure you aren’t being assigned less prestigious projects or assignments.

      Is he also working remotely full-time as well? If so, is he getting a larger supply budget than you (if the company is covering supplies)? I would look into that and make sure that you’re getting at least as much as he is, as long as your jobs require a similar amount of supplies.

      (That’s only because you don’t find yourself needing more time off, otherwise, I’d ask for that.)

      1. A Girl Who Has (92%) of Everything*

        I actually get first dibs on assignments right now and they’re getting more of the “grunt work” nowadays. We both identify as female, so there’s no gender- or sex-discrimination happening here (or other protected classes, in case anyone is curious). The rest of my team is actually based out of the main office – I moved to a totally different part of the country a few months ago and they definitely stretched to keep me on board remotely with no loss of duties or responsibilities. As part of that, they covered any office supplies I needed.

        1. theguvnah*

          Is it possible to ask for an end of year bonus of some kind? Not an official salary change but a way to still get you some cash to bring you to the appropriate pay level?

          1. A Girl Who Has (92%) of Everything*

            I can ask – though I’ve never heard of anyone getting a bonus before. FWIW, we’re only halfway through our fiscal year and the annual performance review process just wrapped up in September.

          2. Aquawoman*

            This is what I was going to suggest also. I’m a little wary of them turning something to take the sting out in the meantime turning into something that solves the problem permanently.

      1. A Girl Who Has (92%) of Everything*

        I literally don’t know what I would do with it…I get 3 weeks of vacation (will go up to 4 weeks on my next anniversary), accrue two weeks+ of sick time/year, plus the office observes around 15-20 holidays a year (depending on how the holidays fall on the calendar) that are on top of my PTO. I’m always rolling days over as-is (I know, I know, sad violin).

    3. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      Not sure what you mean by “support for professional development” but could they spring for some classes, workshops and the like, that you are interested in taking?

        1. A Girl Who Has (92%) of Everything*

          That’s what I meant by support – our team budget already has funds allocated for me to attend a few conferences, reimburse for classes/training opportunities, participate in professional networking events, and the full support of my managerial line to do those on company time.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Pay for a membership in a relevant professional association? Time/pay for whatever education or certification that was used to justify the other person’s higher initial rate of pay?

    4. WellRed*

      I’d ask for them to step it up. HR shouldn’t hold the power here. If your boss wanted to pay your more, he’d make it happen. But to answer your question, are there some conferences or something like that you’d like to attend?

      1. WellRed*

        Since there’s basically nothing to ask for, point that out, highlight your accomplishments and tell them you’d really prefer pay parity.

  65. Smedley*

    Hi gang – I work in an extremely toxic and dysfunctional office that is quite literally been driving me crazy! Recently I actually went to a doctor and obtained a letter saying that I needed to limit my exposure here for health reasons, so for the next three months, I have been granted a 30 hour/week schedule and can work at home two days a week. I have also given up my supervisory responsibilities (I have supervised one person here for five years but have never really been recognized or paid as a manager). I plan to use some of my free time from the reduced work schedule to job hunt. Should I mention my current situation in the interview and if so, what is the best way to present it? Thanks for any advice!

    1. Quill*

      If you do mention it, frame it as a positive move “I’m excited for more opportunities / work life balance / benefits” rather than as “my last workplace was a hive of scum and villainy.”

    2. random noodle*

      Isn’t there some risk of this being a bridge-burner? The company where you’re currently working could be of the opinion “they took advantage of us by requesting a reduced schedule then using our generosity against us to job hunt” – ?

      1. Annonno Today*

        Hmm, I don’t see it that way at all. It’s an extremely toxic/dysfunctional place; who wouldn’t want to leave that?

    3. Annonno Today*

      Don’t mention the situation. If they ask why you’re looking, say you’re ready for new challenges, they aren’t leveraging your skill set, that sort of thing.

  66. Torn*

    Throwing this out in case someone has run into a similar situation before. I’ve been with my company for close to three years, and it’s great. My boss is supportive, we have fantastic benefits, and the company is one of the leaders in our field. About six months ago, an opportunity to work with a client on a highly visible project opened up, and since I was getting a little bored with my day-to-day, I asked if I could take the project over. The project involves taking over something the client had done before, but reworking it entirely and spending the next year or two building it back up again. I knew there would be a few aspects I wasn’t wild about, but I assumed that I’d enjoy most of it. Turns out…I don’t. It involves a lot of administrative type work, and I just don’t love that. There’s also a lot of travel (which I knew in advance) but it’s more taxing than I anticipated.

    About a month and a half ago, one of my mentors invited me to coffee and essentially asked me to come work for her. She told me I could, for the most part, create my own job description and there’s a potential to make significantly more money. I told her that I was in the midst of ramping up the new project and wouldn’t be in a position to make a decision for a couple of months. However, now that I know that there’s a potential to leave this new project and take on something that sounds incredible, I don’t think I’m giving my new duties my full effort. Has anyone dealt with a similar situation, or just have words of wisdom for me? Thanks!!

    2. san junipero*

      You don’t owe your company anything. If you have a better opportunity, and you want to take it, go for it.

      That said, if she’s talking about forming her own startup, use all the necessary precautions — what benefits you’d potentially be losing, etc.

    3. Annonno Today*

      I wouldn’t hesitate to jump at the mentor’s job if you want it. This is business; you have to put your needs first.

    4. sacados*

      Go for the job you want. The timing sucks for your current bosses, but that’s life. Tell them you appreciate they entrusted you with this new project, you fully intended to see it through and kick ass at it, but this amazing opportunity fell into your lap that you just couldn’t pass up.
      Which is all the truth!!
      And then let them know that you will do whatever you can during your notice period to leave documentation/hand over work/smooth the transition.

    5. Kes*

      I think you’re fine to go back to your mentor and see if you would like better. Since she said you can essentially write your job description, I would think carefully about what type of work you actually do and do not like, so you don’t set yourself up again for something you think you’ll enjoy but don’t.

      The fact is, people leave all the time during projects, and it sounds like you were a bit checked out even before that. Your company will deal with your departure (and if they don’t/can’t, that’s on them)

  67. Watermelon M*

    Hey y’all, when do you know the difference between “I am nervous about this possible new job because I am still early in my career and have lower confidence” and “I am nervous because it sounds like it will be difficult and a steep learning curve” ?

    I’m not a natural born leader, although my parents were both leaders in their fields and so is my sister. I just interviewed for a job (yay!) that sounds like it will take more leadership than the job description said. It also involves a more hands off boss, where I feel like I’ve worked best with a boss I can bounce ideas off and consult that I’m going in the right direction relatively often. Can I eventually get better at these kinds of things (leadership, having comfort with a lot of autonomy)? I know if I push myself I could do it, but I wonder if it’s a stupid idea to try a job where that might be happening a lot… in my anxious mind, it makes more sense to practice it in small ways outside of a job so I can be ready for this kind of job? Whew. The anxiety is high right now. I just want to do a good job T_T

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Can I eventually get better at these kinds of things (leadership, having comfort with a lot of autonomy)?

      Yes, you can.

      But it’s also okay to feel anxious about it.

      1. Watermelon M*

        Thank you. I feel so afraid that I’ll be bad at it, so bad that any new job will hire and fire me, but I think A LOT of my anxiety is talking.

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      Ditto what Anonymous Educator said below. I think what’s helped me the most is volunteer opportunities where I can grow into leadership in some more scaffolded ways (and in ways that failure was not tied to job security). I also think that, coming out of a toxic environment, it can be particularly hard to feel confident in your abilities even if the toxicity was not obviously directly related to the things you are feeling anxious about.

      1. Watermelon M*

        Ah that makes sense about the toxic environment really messing with my confidence and belief in my abilities. Still nervous! I think the volunteering sounds like a great idea though. Do you think it would be best to pass up on this job and focus on volunteering until I’m ready? Or maybe I can do it. Maybe…

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          I would keep yourself in the running for it — why count yourself out before you have full information? And going through the process will help you practice your interviewing skills. If you get offered for the position, then you can ask a lot more questions about what the support will be for the places you feel like you might need support (and the workplace culture!) and make a determination then.

        2. Diahann Carroll*

          Agree with Llama Wrangler. If they ask you back for another interview, take it and ask some more questions about expectations and management styles. You may find that there’s a middle ground with this position where, for the first couple of months in the role, they’ll be perfectly fine to have more of the collaborative approach you’re used to.

  68. Lost in the Library*

    I’m a library paraprofessional who recently completed an MLIS and I’m finding myself feeling stuck in this field and at a loss for what to do next. Due to how difficult it is to find a position in the field, I feel really stupid for going through with an MLIS. I’m in Canada and the degree was quite inexpensive compared to what Americans pay, so I have no debt, thankfully. The field has just completely dried up in my province during the last few months (politics, economics, etc.). I’m also unable to relocate to another province (within my province is okay, but other provinces are just too far and I have to deal with being the sole caregiver for an elderly/mentally ill mother who refuses to move into a senior’s home — which is another issue in and of itself). I live in a major city, but there are *literally* no library jobs being posted that I can apply for (that aren’t senior management). I’ve had one interview in another city, someone with more experience beat me but I had good feedback.

    My experience is more suited towards public libraries than academic, so that limits my choices. I keep hearing from people that I should look into the “information” side of my MLIS, but… I have no idea where to begin. Apparently people with MLIS degrees can get “analyst” postions (idk no one’s clear about what industry, or how I could even transfer my skills to this postioon, or records management (which seems so sective, I wouldn’t even know where to begin). I’m thinking about finding a new field all together, I really need to make more money than I do now (just under 40K). I don’t have the time, patience, or money to go back to school for retraining unless I ABSOLUTELY have to. Every day I feel so stupid, I’m starting to despise my job, and I feel completely trapped. I feel like I’m going to be stuck in this position FOREVER. Literally. I need to find an exit and I have no idea where to begin. Any advice?

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I’m so sorry. I have no advice but I sympathize. I’m a library assistant and one of the reasons I don’t have an MLIS is the dearth of positions (and I don’t have any ties that prevent me from moving!). I’m in the US, but every time one of my friends asks me about library school I tell them to do some hard research on their own about job availability because I suspect that schools aren’t super forthcoming about this.

      1. Lost in the Library*

        I think the thing that stings the most is my own stupidity. I decided to do this despite all the bad news. I don’t know what I was expecting, so I really feel sooooo stupid. I’m more disappointed with myself than the field. I guess.

        2. Blueberry Girl*

          Don’t feel stupid. This happens to a lot of people. It is hard and I could go on an entire rant about the “bill of goods” library schools sell students about “everyone retiring” and there being “so many jobs.” Ugh!

    3. Booksaregood*

      I recommend looking to records management! Basically it’s organizing, preserving, and disposing of a company’s documentation and information – Think cataloging, but based on business stuff. My first full-time job after I got my MLIS was as a records analyst in the records management department. Almost all my co-workers had their MLIS too, and it was listed as preferred in the job description – So it’s a pretty common direction for librarians to move in. These positions also tend to be more accessible than library jobs because basically every company needs to have some sort of document managing.

      Having an MLIS rather than MLS is definitely helpful for this field, since more and more companies are moving away from paper documents to completely born-digital documentation. Terms to search for include a mix-and-match of “digital,” “asset,” “record,” “electronic,” “content,” “information;” and “analyst” and “manager.”

      If you have any questions or need me to clarify something, let me know!

      1. alacrity*

        Came here to say records management! I have a MLIS equivalent but my area was archives and records management and there is a lot of overlap! I’ve found that a lot of the skills I gained in getting my MSI are applicable to my job as a paralegal, especially research and organizing information. You may want to look into entry level legal assistant positions at local law firms. And of course law firms need records managers too. Many larger firms also have their own libraries and law degrees are not required, but of course knowledge of legal research helps which will come with experience/maybe a few paralegal courses.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Many larger firms also have their own libraries and law degrees are not required

          This isn’t exactly true (unless you just mean in Canada – then it may in fact be true). A lot of law librarian positions in the US want librarians with the MLS and a JD.

      2. Hibiscus*

        I have a MLIS and a job as a medical librarian now, but the skills I use THE MOST are from 2 jobs I had that were information-related but not library jobs. For 2.5 years I was a publications assistant for a medical ghostwriting firm, and for 3 years I was a performance auditor for the state. My coworker (also MLIS) does CME (continuing medical education) program administration. It’s a field where the skills/personality you bring to the table PLUS an information bent will help you find jobs. The problem is acquiring that self-knowledge and then selling yourself.

        Blueberry Girl, I will cosign that entire rant and when you exhaust yourself I will pick it up jam band style.

      3. Lost in the Library*

        How do you recommend starting in the field? What does an entry level job look like? I’ve done a bit of searching for jobs in my area, they all seem to require not a lot of education and A LOT of experience and very specific training with software I’ve never heard of.

        I work as a school library technician, so I’m just afraid that it won’t be possible to show how those skills transfer. In all honesty, my favourite parts of my job are the cataloging, organizing, and collection management (working with kids is also fun, but I’d survive without them). I really want to use more of those skills, but I’m not sure how to go forward! (I spent two summers cataloging for the school board and I secretly liked it!!!). I feel a bit confused about how to sell my skills (which I guess, I think are tarnished by the “school library”/working with kids aspect). Any insight?

        In a spurt of energy, I did send an email out to my local ARMA chapter asking if it’s possible to “network”/connect with a member to discuss my “career change” into records management.

        1. Booksaregood*

          Sorry I didn’t reply on Friday – Just seeing this now!

          Cataloging is definitely an important skill! I’d definitely start from there – emphasize that you’re good at organizing, following standards, data entry, data verification, following terminology, comfort with tech, comfort with databases, comfort learning new software. Working with kids could translate into good interpersonal skills, working well with people from a variety of departments and levels, maybe working under deadlines/stressful situations. Words like “verification,” “conversion,” “digitization,” “standards,” “metadata,” “retrieval,” “disposition,” “curation,” and “ingestion” might be helpful to include.

          In my first position, I reviewed documents, weeded out non-records, and then entered and/or corrected info on the records in our database: converted files, entered metadata based on our terminology, did research on the records by communicating with other departments, and standardized based on naming conventions. I also prepared records for offsite storage, answered research requests, and helped out at training sessions. As I moved up in the ranks, I started creating metadata templates and standards, lead training sessions, and user-tested software.

          When I helped with hiring, we looked for people who were good at working alone, detail-oriented, able to communicate well with people outside the RM/library field, and able to adapt to new software. If you like making order out of chaos, are nosy and enjoy picking through a lot of documentation, are good in a business environment, and don’t mind routine, then maybe RM is good fit!

          ARMA’s ok, but I recommend SAA’s record management listserv over it. Maybe check that out!

          Hopefully some of that was helpful!

      4. Anon Tech Writer*

        I posted on another tech writer thread, and here I am again. I know several people with an MLS or MLIS who have gotten jobs in content strategy, information architecture, or technical writing. You can segue to that, and many such jobs are remote. Your value is your ability to organize information, among other things. So please don’t give up hope!

    4. san junipero*

      I have no actual experience in Library Science, but I have a friend with an MLIS who’s made a successful career out of corporate records management. IIRC she’s mostly worked at fairly large organizations (the two I remember are NASA and Bethesda Software), so that may be a good place to start?

      Admittedly, she’s also had flexibility around relocating. I don’t know how many large companies are in your province, although a lot of them have smaller branches nationally/internationally.

    5. Blueberry Girl*

      So, I would apply for any library job in your geographic region, even if it seems like a total long shot. At my last academic library, we hired an amazing librarian whose only previous experience had been a children’s librarian. But she blew us all away with her presentation and her obvious love of teaching. We needed an instruction person and she was the best, by far. So, don’t let the idea that you’ve only worked in public limit you.

      Also, look for any job that involves records management, or information management, or really any sort of high organization work. A dear friend transitioned out of libraries into very high level Admin work, because by gosh she knew how to set up a good filing system. So, that might be an option too.

    6. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Are there any colleges or universities near you? I know of a few MLIS holders who’ve ended working as staff in various departments of universities, particularly assessment and institutional research. These positions require a lot of the same research and cataloging skills that librarians use, plus you tend to get paid better! I know someone who totally fell in love with institutional research, even though she thought she wanted to be a children’s librarian in a public library.
      The registrar, student success, academic records, testing services, or other similar departments might also be worth exploring.

    7. Public librarian turned corporate librarian turned market intelligence analyst (now manager)*

      On the “analyst” positions — a library background is indeed applicable to some analyst positions (with titles like Market Intelligence Analyst or Business Intelligence Analyst), provided you have interest in and/or skills related to taking big bunches of information, analyzing it, and presenting it in a more concise, actionable way. Check out the job postings/ website of Strategic and Competitive Intelligence Professionals (SCIP) for examples. And good luck!

    8. Kes*

      In addition the suggestions above, I have a friend who got her MLIS and now works for the government dealing with Freedom of Information requests, so there are information management and records jobs in government as well as corporate positions. Just another place to consider looking for jobs.

    9. Lost in the Library*

      Update: I just found out today that my current position is being reduced from 1.0 FTE to 0.5 FTE due to budget cuts. I just feel numb and stupid. Or stupid and numb. Now what am I supposed to do?

      1. Blueberry Girl*

        I know you feel like you made some huge mistake, but you didn’t. You did what you could do under the circumstances. Now, you just have to see how you can move forward. Does this suck? Yes, but you are stronger than this and you are not stupid.

  69. Kanon*

    There are rumors (but I’m pretty sure they are true) of a hiring freeze in my office. At the same time, my colleague has been given a warning and less formal plan for performance improvement. (Whether that is deserved is a whole other post.) For supervisors, when do you decide to keep someone (or at least not encourage them to leave) who may not be great but the alternative is an empty chair?

    2. juliebulie*

      I thought a hiring freeze meant “no additional headcount.” They may still be willing to replace an unsatisfactory employee if it keeps the headcount steady. Especially if they think they’ll be getting more for their money with a new person.

      Also, sometimes an employee is so bad that the empty chair is preferable.

      1. SomebodyElse*

        I’d be careful with this… often times a hiring freeze means no backfill as well.

        To answer the original question, it depends.

        Sometimes the phrase addition by subtraction comes into play. If an employee is so disruptive to operations, it’s sometimes better to have the hole. Disruptive could be soft things like moral killers or drama but it can also mean if their work has to be so closely monitored it takes two people’s time and effort or if there is a significant rework factor.

        Other times the person may be harmless enough to last until the hiring freeze has ended.

    3. NW Mossy*

      I’ve fired someone during a hiring freeze before, and hands-down, no regrets. The team ended up gaining back more than a person’s worth of capacity because they were able to stop spending time on compensating for an underperforming employee, not to mention the time I gained back from not having to invest so much in managing that underperformance. If I hadn’t see the effects with my own eyes, I wouldn’t have believed it possible.

      I’ll also say that it is often intentional to manage out the lowest performers during a hiring freeze, because combining the two strategies can help the company avoid layoffs/RIFs. It gradually brings headcount down while maximizing the likelihood that you keep as many of your strong performers as possible.

  70. Narvo Flieboppen*

    A fun blurb from Crazytown.

    I was walking down the hall to the meeting and noticed that the private gender neutral bathroom on our floor had a new sign taped the door: Marketing Dept. ONLY. Isn’t that fun? I know the Marketing staff normally use that bathroom, because it is closest to their office and saves them walking 50 ft. the larger gendered bathrooms. But I can’t recall it being assigned to their department. There are 4 other offices that fall into the same ‘closest to them bathroom’ pool as Marketing. I snapped a picture with my phone and figured I would run it by someone later.

    After my meeting, I took my lunch to the breakroom and discovered two more new signs. The shared refrigerator, for the entire building, was now marked as “Marketing Dept. ONLY” and the same for the shared microwave. I disregarded the sign and heating up my food anyway. (Note: I was not immediately smote by lightning, thus I began to suspect the signage was incorrect.)

    I snagged some pics of these other signs and meandered my way up to see Jane (the Marketing Director) after lunch. She & I have worked together for years and she’s typically quite reasonable, unlike the new signs. Jane was quite surprised to see them and even asked if I had printed them as a joke. Alas, no, I was not joking.

    She walked around with me to remove the signs. All of which were printed on the heavy thick stock we use to make custom signs. And which can only be printed from the super deluxe business hub used by the Marketing team. Being so fancy, the machine can also report on all sorts of fun pieces of data, like who last printed from the signage stock drawer and what was the their IP address. Armed with that info, Jane made a quick call to IT and got the name of the user whose computer has that IP address.

    Jane called me privately to tell me about the results. It turns out to be Annie, the new hire in Marketing, whose job is literally one step above ‘unpaid intern’. It seems she was irritated at ‘other people’ using the Marketing resources – bathroom, fridge, & microwave so far – so she fixed the problem by labeling them. Of note: Annie has worked here for exactly 5 business days, including today. Jane has said this won’t happen again, but asked that I let her know if I see anything else weird which looks like it came out of Marketing.

    Hell(mouth) of a way to make a first impression on your new coworkers, Annie.

    6. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

      This shows why it is good to have quality relationships with people in other departments. You knew who you could go to and reasonably discuss the situation. I wish my directs would act like this. Instead, they fly off the handle and rant and rave about it and then expect me to deal with it. Well done! Now go talk to Annie and ask for a sign for an “Employee of the Month” placard.

    8. juliebulie*

      Annie needs to learn how to squelch her territorial instincts and also how to coexist with others. Or else find a more dysfunctional workplace where her efforts will be appreciated by awful people.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Or not. She sounds like just the kind of person who will feel justified in her wrongness.

    10. WellRed*

      I do not thing Annie is cut out for office work. Why would these things be considered marketing resources? Jane. I like Jane.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I remember, as a small child, being irritated that so many other people drove to use MY neighborhood park instead of just going to the park in THEIR neighborhood. Once my age hit the double-digits and I was able to wander to more parts of the city, I realized that I lived right by one of the biggest, nicest parks anywhere near my part of town, and that other people couldn’t just walk to parks like that, thus why so many people drove to mine. Before that, I’d just kind of assumed that every neighborhood was like mine, particularly since on the rare occasions my parents drove me to a different park it was always one that was at least as nice as the one my my house.

        Perhaps Annie similarly didn’t realize how things like microwaves and bathrooms are distributed in this particular office? She doesn’t have the excuse of being a small child, though.

    11. pancakes*

      Strange things to be so territorial about! It’s not as if a microwave has a finite amount of power that’s in danger of being used up, or a toilet stops working if it’s flushed x number of times. A fridge might get too full, of course, but why would the solution be to arbitrarily pick one department that can use it? Imagine being Annie’s roommate, oh my.

    12. GoryDetails*

      This is my favorite post so far in this thread! I almost hope that we hear more from “Annie” in future, if only for the entertainment value – though the better side of my nature hopes that she’ll get her new-employee act in gear instead.

    13. Lubbers*

      Oh dear. Is it possible that another employee was hazing Annie because she’s new and told her to make the signs or made her think that the fridge etc. was just for the one department? Like sending the new employee into the warehouse to look for blinker fluid?

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        I honestly doubt this is the case here, given my knowledge of and experience with the Marketing staff. They’re pretty solid people for the most part. The real stinkers were removed during a brief purge a couple years ago.

    15. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Yikes.

      I suspect there’s some blame to be apportioned elsewhere (eg someone showing her round used phrasing like “here’s our bathroom” instead of “here’s the nearest bathroom”) but this is surely >90% Gumption.

    16. Wishing You Well*

      I hope Annie is nothing like my friend “Sue”.
      Sue’s behavior stemmed from her personality issues, so an improvement in behavior never happened. Once Sue learned a coworker was going to be fired, she caused havoc by asking other coworkers to apply for that job before the soon-to-be-fired coworker knew her job was gone. I think the problem was Sue’s perfectionism and lack of boundaries. While I hope this isn’t the case for Annie, I’ve got a bad feeling about this.
      Best of Luck

    18. SomebodyElse*

      HAHAHAHA… breathe…HAHAHAHA

      OMG I think I love Annie in that “oh you sweet summer child” sort of way. Please please keep reporting her antics as I’m sure this is not the last one.

      Speaking of favorite characters, I may have missed them but I loved getting the updates from “I’m not the Bumper Sticker Police” (or something like that) on the new employee who was trying to save the world one silly issue at a time.

  71. frida*

    I recently started working full-time for a startup in my field. It’s my first time working in a startup rather than a more traditional company. I love the work and the company’s mission, but due to the company’s commitment to 24/7 service, I’ve been stuck on a lot of late cover shifts (typically from 2PM to midnight). I also often have to work weekends. The hours are taking a serious toll on me. I am unabashedly a morning person, and working this late messes with my sleep patterns to the point where it’s aggravating my health (mental and physical). I’ve been able to negotiate a bit of a work-from-home schedule, but it’s still frustrating to still be “at work” when I would normally be cooking dinner and relaxing with my family. Management works more of a typical Monday-Friday, 9-5 schedule, and I’ve emphasised often that my work is much more productive on that schedule (at night I’m usually just staring at my computer waiting for any customers to come online), but it always comes back to “it’s a startup, you have to expect some growing pains” and “we’ll discuss it once we get out of this quarter”. I have the experience to become a manager and quite frankly wouldn’t be comfortable staying at this company if I can’t get a more conventional schedule, but I don’t want to leave—the people and the company are great, and it’s exciting to come into a startup at the ground floor, but I’m not okay with making this job my life. I’m getting married soon and have barely been able to spend any time with my future spouse due to these schedules! Advice from AAM people who have been there?

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      How about, “It’s a startup; you have to actually hire people to work here.”

      It’s not sustainable for you to work what looks like at least one and a half jobs. “It’s a startup” is not an excuse, and management knows that (or they would be working crazy hours as well). I’d talk to them with something along the lines of, “I really like it here. I don’t want to leave. But it is not sustainable for me to work the schedule that I have. I propose that we do X and Y to maximize my value to the company. What do you think we can do here?”

    3. Frankie*

      It’s one thing if everyone’s on that schedule…not palatable, but definitely can be a norm…but it’s kind of gross they’re setting their own schedules and sticking you with all the crappy hours.

      Startups can be really, really messy while the entrepreneurs figure out there’s a lot of logistics they don’t fully understand and maybe shouldn’t be in charge of. Sorting this stuff out can really take years. I would take the “end of the quarter” and extend that to at least a year or something.

      I have worked at one place that was very startup-y, and we were viewed as an endless resource without any long-term view of how to help us work sustainably, much less happily. Literally everyone I worked with at that place is now gone because every one of us burned out. So that’s my experience with places that don’t value your time.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      You say you’re a morning person–if you would happily work your extended day starting at 6am, suggest that as an alternative. But…I didn’t have a good startup experience, so my inclination is to get out of Dodge.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Startups can be messy affairs, and people often need to wear many hats and work long hours with the promise the company will be successful and they’ll be in a prime spot when the IPO comes in. But the thing is, what’s your investment in this business? Granted, the owners have a stake to make it–and should be working long hours to make it so. What about you? The fact that you say the owners are only working 9-5 is concerning to say the least!

      If you’re not getting an equity stake or shares, I’d be wary. If they keep refusing to hire extra help, even TEMP help, I’d consider getting out within a reasonable timeframe unless you have an equity share in the business. Don’t let them take advantage of you.

  72. NothingIsLittle*

    I’m an administrative assistant at a university in the northeast and I’m the same age (18-26) as the students here. I’m under the impression that it would be inappropriate for me to be friends with students and meet up with them outside of work, because even though I’m not a teacher and can’t impact their grades I’m still a representative of the school. However, there’s a student I share an interest with (D&D) who would like to be friends with me outside of work. I’d have probably been friends with her if I hadn’t been working at the college she goes to for the program she’s in, but given that I do it just feels uncomfortable and inappropriate.

    Are my instincts wrong here? Is it ever appropriate for a university admin to become friends with students in the program they admin for?

    1. Psych0Metrics*

      I’m not that familiar with academic culture so I might be wrong on this, but since you don’t have any sort of grading or promotional authority over the students it doesn’t seem like a conflict of interest to me.

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t risk it. I don’t know if you have a duty of care, but you do have a greater responsibility that will soon seem blurred by the closeness of both feeling and age (assuming you are both in your 20s and no more than two years apart, versus under 20 and 22+).

    2. A Poster Has No Name*

      When in doubt, I would say talk to your boss and find out what, if any, policies there are around people in your position being friends with students. I don’t think there would be any conflicts of interest, but I’m not sure the scope of your duties or access to student information.

    3. E*

      I would say it’s not out of line if you are a staff member to hang out with a student. Especially given that you are of similar age. As a graduate student I had friends who were staff members in my program because we were all similar ages. I would caution against doing things like heavily binge drinking with said student, but playing D & D and grabbing meals together is totally acceptable in my opinion.

    4. moql*

      This is completely fine, as long as you’re not in the registrar’s office or work with financial aid, or something sensitive like that. In grad school the dept admin was our age and came out for happy hours all the time.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      Ask your supervisor. I work at a university and typically each office will have their own internal policies for things like this– beyond the general employee handbook.

    6. Reliquary*

      The administrative assistant in my academic department regularly handles confidential records, some of which contain information about the faculty, and some of which contain information about students – especially but not exclusively our majors and minors.

      I think you should consult with the chair of your department. It may be fine, as long as you strictly observe FERPA, but honestly, it makes sense to get clarification from the chair.

    7. Spoons please*

      It’s ok to be friendly, but you do need to have firm boundaries and make sure you don’t share office gossip with the students.

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      For me this would hinge on the grad vs undergrad question. If she’s a grad student, than I don’t see an issue- grad students are old enough that I wouldn’t worry about it. If she’s an undergrad, I can see there being more boundary issues.

  73. Michel*

    Question for the commentariat:
    (Academia) Should I apply to an internal higher position if NOT invited to?
    I would expect if they want me for the position, they’d ask me.
    I have expressed the desire for the exact position in past and received perfect, stellar reviews from my supervisor.
    This position would still be reporting to my supervisor.
    Position is also externally posted per protocol.

      1. Michel*

        This is what I am hearing, but it may make things weird if I don’t get it.
        And I think, really if they did want me for job given my known desire for it- they’d ask me.

        Or heck, freaking promote me already.

        I am trying to think of all the ways this could go from status quo to worse when I am rejected.
        Right now I am doing well per reviews etc.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Most people are bogged down in doing their jobs and are not thinking about the advancement possibilities for other people. Nobody cares more about your career than you do, so please don’t depend on/wait for someone else to invite you to advance. They may think you’re content where you are. And you may be, but unless you’re going to get punished for daring to want to move up, I don’t think it’s that big a deal.

    3. A Poster Has No Name*

      Is it normal for people where you work to be invited for such positions?

      I’m not in academia, so take this with a grain of salt, but in my corner of the corporate world it would be odd for someone to be invited to apply for a promotion, unless the promotion was specifically created for them. I would also say that the worst they can say is no, but if the culture where you are is to be invited to apply and applying on your own is a major faux pas or could cause serious awkwardness if you didn’t get it, then I’m not so sure. Can you talk to your boss about the position and get their take on it? Maybe they have someone else in mind or a particular skill set for this position that isn’t in your repertoire, or maybe your boss will go YES OF COURSE THANK GOD I WAS HOPING YOU’D TAKE THE HINT AND APPLY FOR THIS ONE. You never know. Good luck!

    4. NothingIsLittle*

      I think it most of all depends on your bosses. Some of the deans at my school would have brought it up to the people on their teams immediately if they knew those team members were interested. Others would assume that those team members who were interested were keeping track of the open positions and would come to them if a job came open.

      If you’re saying that they’d tell you to apply if they wanted you to because they’ve done that in the past for someone else, then I think you could talk to them about it before applying. I don’t think a quick, “Hey, I noticed that position I really wanted just came open. Would it make sense for me to apply for it?” would be out of place. Honestly, if you have any trepidation about applying, I would just ask them if it makes sense for you to throw your hat in. I think just asking is going to have less chance of getting weird.

      I disagree that you should apply for it if you feel strongly they would have told you to. People in academia have big egos (I say as an admin assistant at a university). Your bosses might feel like you’re overstepping or trying to go behind their backs if you don’t talk to them first (and not that I think that’s good, just that it happens).

    5. Belle of the Midwest*

      As a long-term higher ed professional who applied for two internal positions and didn’t get either, I regret nothing. I talked to the directors after the fact and just said, “I’m interested in a similar role to the one I didn’t get and I’m open to opportunities to partner with the people I lost out to.” I definitely got tested on that as I was in classes and on committees with the people in those roles. But it worked out. What happened after I didn’t get the second one? I won a national award for the work I was currently doing, and six months later, I got offered a new split position doing both the current work and the work I wanted to be doing. No interview necessary–I just got shooed in. a decade went by and then I got a full time position in my dream job during an internal restructure. The point is, when I interviewed, not only did I get clear about what I really wanted to do, the PTB also learned what I wanted to do and it changed how they saw me.

      My point is: do it. As my mother used to say, all they can do is say no. They are probably not going to kill you and eat you.

    6. Lemon Squeezy*

      Mention it in passing to your supervisor. “Hey, I saw a position XXX opened up under you and was planning on applying to it. I didn’t want to catch you off guard.” Then apply. That way, you’re giving supervisor the courtesy of a heads up, but ultimately, you’re the ultimate advocate for your advancement. And you won’t be plagued with ‘what-if’s. Better to apply, for sure.

    8. Person from the Resume*

      Yes! Don’t assume that they even thought to ask if Michel was interested/be a good fit. You know that you’re interested in this type of position, but they may not.

  74. Cookie Monster*

    Help, I need emotional assistance with giving notice at my part time job tomorrow! And maybe some non-emotional advice.
    I’m a grad student who has been working part time at a local bakery since May. I graduate in December, which they knew when they hired me. However, we never really discussed that I plan to move out of this city once I graduate. I’ve accepted a job offer in new city, and will be moving there in early December after the semester is over. I know employees leave all the time and customer service positions usually have high amounts of turnover and I am not a particularly special employee (I mean I’m good, but not like “oh no if cookie monster quits it’ll be a disaster!”). However, the holiday season, from end of October through Jan, is the busiest time of year at a bakery. I also really really like my coworkers and my boss -it’s a warm, friendly environment and I’ve learned so much. It’s also just been great to do something so unrelated to my degree as a break from homework. Ideally, the day before Thanksgiving would be my last day, but I’d be happy to come in after thanksgiving for a few shifts at the beginning of December, but I have a hard absolute last day in early December.
    Basically, I need reassurance that it’s okay to give notice at a shit time. Also, do you think it’s a good idea to let my boss know tomorrow? My thinking is that they’re already hiring for two unrelated positions and have a decent amount of resumes coming in, plus she doesn’t seem like the type who’d just fire me now instead. Or is it too early regardless?

    1. Michel*

      Kindest thing to do is tell them ASAP and offer to train as much as you can. Life happens. I doubt they expected you to be there very long given your plans/education.

    2. BadWolf*

      “Hey Boss, I know everyone knows that I graduate in December. I just wanted to be clear that when I graduate, I’ll also be moving to new city. I think that puts my absolute last day at Dec 30th (or whatever).”

      You are a student — students graduate and move. No reasonable person should be surprised by that.

    3. LlamaDataGeek*

      Would you be OK if they let you go once you gave notice? If so, then it would be a kind thing – but you don’t need to do that.

      I found some wording that really helped for me, when I resigned a year ago, was to say that I realized that the timing wasn’t ideal for my manager, but I couldn’t pass up this offer.

      1. Cookie Monster*

        I wouldn’t love it – I’d be okay financially, but that extra money is basically my entire social/fun budget. Do you think that’s a likely possibility?

        1. NothingIsLittle*

          Is your management otherwise reasonable? If so I wouldn’t be too worried about it. My friend was working at a bakery for a year and a half and just quit last week (with 1-month notice) because she got a job in her field and her bosses had no problem with it. Keeping her around was less of a burden while they were looking for another employee.

          On the other hand, if they’re known to be petty or reactionary, I would give exactly two weeks so you’re not eating it if they let you go.

    4. Quill*

      Honestly the best way to do this, in my opinion, is to remind yourself that while you may be fond of the place and the people, you do not owe them a commitment that they have not already started paying you for. Please let your manager know when it makes sense for you – note that in customer service you often don’t get to serve out 2 weeks’ notice, so don’t strand yourself with no income until graduation by telling them too much longer than that two weeks before you intend to leave!

    5. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

      Give your notice, admit it is not the best time and apologize for that. Really your managers and co-workers will understand. In fact, they should be happy for you! You are finishing school and starting your career. Do not let any anxiety over this job ruin that for you.

      Just remember people quit or are fired all the time and businesses still survive. It may not be the best time for them but no one is going to die.

      And Congrats!

    6. Lifelong student*

      Not exactly on target- but in a similar situation. I was working as a paralegal while completing my bachelor degree in accounting (at age 47!) and was beginning to look for accounting positions. I was concerned about how my attorney would respond to my leaving as we worked well together. I spoke with a trusted person who was close to him and let her know my fears. When I found an accounting position, the attorney’s response was very supportive and included a mention of the fact that the friend had warned him this was coming. So it was not out of the blue to the attorney and made everything easy. When I passed the CPA exam, one of the first people I called was the attorney. So your boss probably knows – or can be given enough hints to know- and may well be happy for you.

    7. MissGirl*

      I, like you, was very anxious to give notice at my retail job during the holidays. I had gotten a better job but had so much guilt. My mom, who does give good work advice, said it’s retail, they’re used to it, rip the bandaid off.

      I went in and told my manager, “I’m so sorry, I’m quitting.” His response, “Okay, what’s your last day.” Honestly, I was a little hurt he didn’t care more.

      Lesson learned, quitting is part of business.

    8. WS*

      Part of my job involves managing retail workers. That kind of job is easy come, easy go, and the more notice you give, the easier it will be for them to train your replacement in time.

    9. Cookie Monster*

      Update!! I tested the waters with my manager/the most senior employee on our Saturday shift while big boss was OOO for a bit, and checked to see if the boss had ever fired someone on the spot for that – she confirmed that had never happened and they totally understood and just wanted to know as soon as possible. So I talked to big boss when she got back from her meeting and she was excited for me about my new degree-related job, and we were able to set a last day that works for both of us in early December! Hooray! Thank you all :)

  75. Exhausted Trope*

    I got this email earlier in the week and it’s so odd I had to share.
    “We have been attempted to reach you via email but with no success. Please reply to this email with the appropriate box checked:

    [ ] Help! I have been abducted by aliens! Please rescue me!
    [ ] I have not been abducted by aliens. I’ve just been really busy.
    [ ] I wish you had been abducted by aliens so you won’t email me again.
    [ ] I’d love to learn more about (redacted) Company and the Talent Acquisition Coordinator position!”
    Odd, no? Anyone ever receive anything like this from a potential employer?

    1. secret chart*

      That’s an amazing spam, especially since I imagine you didn’t get their previous attempted e-mails/they never attempted any other e-mails.

    3. A Poster Has No Name*

      I would be tempted to respond with 3 checked, but then that gives them the satisfaction of a response, so…I don’t know.

      Did you reach out to these people, or was this random LinkedIN spam?

    4. Me*

      It’s a new technique I’ve noticed to generate a response to mass marketing emails.

      It’s still nothing more than an unsolicited email that doesn’t require a response unless you desire.

    6. juliebulie*

      Spam, phishing, or the world’s worst attempt to recruit.

      Because if they really wanted to tell you about their Talent Acquisition Coordinator position, they could have just done that. I’d hate to work for a company that can’t get to the point in their own communications.

    7. Not your dad's recruiter*

      I think I had seen this as an example of recruiting email that get answers.
      I had my doubts.

  76. Marge*

    Help! I need to let my boss know I’m leaving today and I’m terrified! She and I have a horrible relationship and I’m so happy I’m leaving but I’m afraid she will make my life hell in the meantime since it’s an interagency transfer and I have to be here for the next 30 days.

    1. Michel*

      This too shall pass and will most likely be much better. So try and plan fun stuff around this month of not so much fun, and remember THIS IS WHY you are leaving.

    2. LlamaDataGeek*

      You’ll be OK, and it will be so much better soon! I found some wording that really helped for me, when I resigned a year ago, was to say that I realized that the timing wasn’t ideal for my manager, but I couldn’t pass up this offer. It’s not the same situation, of course, but can you use that sort of thing?

    3. Cookie Monster*

      You got this!! She can’t fire you earlier because it’s interagency transfer and that would just make her look atrocious. Keeping a little countdown might help. The next 30 days is only 22 work days!!

    4. juliebulie*

      She will probably think that you are in a position to make her life hell for the next 30 days. You won’t do that, but I think you’re actually on much more even footing with her than in the past, so she might even be nice to you.

  77. JustaTech*

    Just a rant, but it’s so absurd I felt I had to share.
    This week my boss (Bob) had to have a meeting with me and my coworkers (Jane and Joan) because his boss (Al) had been “spoken to” by his boss (Fergus), because when Fergus had a meeting with Jane she (incorrectly) said that I had spoken to a coworker in another department about topic X. The reality is that I spoke to that person about topic Z, but unbeknownst to my group, topic X is a big deal mustn’t talk about subject.

    This is the second time in 6 months that we’ve had this ridiculous chain of he said that he said that she said that you said that’s ended with “as your boss I am obligated to tell you not to talk to anyone, which is patently absurd”. And this time I hadn’t even talked about the “forbidden” subject, but rather about something that I *had* checked that it was OK to talk about!
    All because Jane got things mixed up (she does this some times because she tends to move very quickly and talk to everyone, which is great 60% of the time, but sometimes is a mess), but really because Fergus doesn’t want us talking to anyone outside the department.

    Just typing this out it’s so darn middle school I could scream.

      1. ArtK*

        I think that JustaTech *did* know that topic X is forbidden.

        Personally, I’d be looking because Fergus is playing information hoarding games. That kind of political shenanigan rarely works out in the end. Anecdote: Previous employer, the sales department hid the customer contracts from the operations side, so that we didn’t know what the company had committed to. We kept getting in trouble for not meeting the contractual requirements that we didn’t know about. When we finally got ahold of the contracts, we found that nobody was billing on them because the terms were so vague. Company went under despite our efforts to fix things.

        1. JustaTech*

          Not exactly. I found out on Monday that topic X had been tried and didn’t work and can we just not ever talk about it again (sure).
          What’s annoying is that Jane was in that meeting and apparently forgot the “can we never talk about it again” part.
          And we didn’t know that this was a touchy topic with other departments.

          Fergus has straight out said that he wants to keep stuff quite, or go through him because BigBoss (2 up) doesn’t understand what we do and likes to pick on Fergus’s boss about things BigBoss thinks we are doing. Fergus’s boss doesn’t like getting chewed out (obviously) so he then tells Fergus to tell us to cut it out. The problem is that it’s often not clear what we’re supposed to be “cutting out”.

          Honestly I’m just waiting for the sales team to all quit (again) so BigBoss can go vent his spleen at them.

  78. RedLineInTheSand*

    I’m wondering if I should say anything more to my supervisor. I was out earlier this year for 6 weeks, I was suicidal at the time. I’ve been diagnosed as bipolar and I’m on a ton of new medications. I’ve been back to work for several months, but there are several new tasks that my department has put in place that I haven’t started taking on yet (my supervisor is doing them). I talked to him when I first came back and told him what was going on and that I was having a hard time doing my work as is, let alone taking on new tasks.

    Some days I feel ready to take on the world, then I get scared because it makes me wonder if I’m slipping into a manic phase. (During my last one I bought a business, which I tried running while doing my f/t job and it failed after 6 months and now I am in bankruptcy).

    On one hand, I need to protect my mental health, but eventually I need to get back up to full speed at work. My boss really is great.

    Should I talk to him again or just slowly start taking on the tasks as I feel able? I’m not sure of the optics of talking about such personal medical issues again. FWIW his daughter is bipolar as well, so he has a bit of experience with it.

    1. juliebulie*

      His daughter’s experience might not help you much, because (odds are) your symptoms and whatnot are probably different from hers.

      Just try to get something done. Then something else. Then you’ll have a better idea of what to say to your boss. Right now it sounds as though you’re not even sure what to say. You won’t know until you try doing things and see how you feel.

  79. Young and Restless*

    How would you recommend a new-ish, entry-level employee ask for more responsibilities in a role that has no upward trajectory and in a family business that divies up tasks based almost entirely on nepotism?

    I graduated in 2018 and have been at my first full time job since early this year. So far, I’ve weathered through the busiest season and even then, it’s been clear that my job is doesn’t merit being full time. I ask for things to do and offer numerous colleagues help. Even when I do get small projects I’m often left with multiple hours of the day where I desperately try to find things to do. To boot, I know I have one other coworker who is in the same boat. Our jobs could easily be combined and have been in the past.

    Asking to maintain even one of our incredibly underutilized social media channels seems to be the most obvious thing to do (my role is loosely marketing), but social media is handled by the owner’s daughter who works remotely and also… never actually updates anything. I’ve point-blank offered to manage them for her but she has refused, so I feel like I can’t go to the owner to suggest I do that. I also have no direct supervisor.

    Right now, I just feel lost… I know I’m young and didn’t expect this job to be thrilling, but I’m afraid that one day they’ll realize my role is truly redundant and decide to let me go (and no, there haven’t been any formal reviews since I’ve been here. They were supposed to happen back in August but didn’t. And the entire office is open, so there is literally no private place to speak to someone unless we leave the building). The turnover for this position is 8-10 months, so I’m nearing the time that most people end up leaving, but I really want to make the most of things while I’m here!

    1. banzo_bean*

      I’ve been in this position in the past while working as an admin in accounting. I would recommend asking coworkers to shadow them on certain projects when they’re not super slammed. I shadowed my colleague on payroll and when she left I was able to pick it up. I also asked my boss to let me watch him prepare a tax return (an easy one). It wasn’t something I would ever be able to do on my own but knowing his process helped me find other things to help him with. Finally I often asked my boss if I could arrange standard employee appreciation lunches/cocktail hours. Obviously you can’t do this too often but it gave me something to do a couple of times a month.

      1. Young and Restless*

        These are good ideas, thank you! I do know I have a coworker who is will be going on maternity leave in a few months, so it’s possible I could shadow her.

    2. :)*

      Honestly, I would just accept that the role is what it is and enjoy the free time. You’ve tried asking for more work and they haven’t been able to give you anything else to do. If you honestly think they are going to get rid of either you or your coworker, use the free time you have to beef up your resume or look online for jobs that interest you. Of course, you can ignore my advice if you work at the kind of company that tracks everything you do on the computer.

      1. Young and Restless*

        That’s fair, thank you! It would certainly be more productive than refreshing my email all day and bugging coworkers for small projects — ha. And we’re not monitored, so there’s little to worry about on that front.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yeah, you need a new job STAT. This one is not going to give you nearly enough experience to make compelling bullet points on a resume.

  80. banzo_bean*

    So, I am set to graduate with my MSc in Data Science in December. I’ve followed Alisons guide for resumes and cover letters. I’ve got a blog started about my projects. And I’m networking as best I can. So far very few bites. I’m from outside the tech industry and this is my first time applying for a tech job- any tips I should be aware of specific to my industry? Any advice from seasoned professionals?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      The industry is geared to get grad students in the spring, so don’t be too surprised if you don’t get a lot of bites right now. Make sure you are going to all your school’s relevant job fairs, including those in the spring. Sit down with your school’s employment office and make sure they include you on notices of those job fairs until you find a job you want.

      Look for the big companies in your area, and make sure you’re looking a little outside tech – the consulting and finance companies are hot for Data Science students too.

      1. banzo_bean*

        Thanks this is helpful. I am looking outside tech- and I would love to go into consulting. Any suggestions on that would be really appreciated.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          A lot of the tech companies now have consulting arms, so that may be your sweet spot. And you can think about ‘implementing software’ as a starting place too, though I think that’s more for BScs than MScs. Security’s hot, so think FireEye, Flashpoint, Optiv in addition to Cisco, IBM, Deloitte. SAS, Red Hat, SAP – all of them hire people to implement their software, and SAS especially lines up with data science.

          Most of the big security firms are in San Jose. Outside of CA, Atlanta and Research Triangle (RTP) in NC are two hot spots for this sort of thing – I mention it because I don’t know how aware people are of that outside the industries. Accenture, Cisco, IBM are in both; SAS and Red Hat only have bases in RTP, but Atlanta has other companies consulting to implement SAS and Docker. Both areas are similar – diverse urban areas, growing fast, some growing pains (traffic!), good schools. My impression is that if you are not white, Atlanta’s got more of a racism problem outside the urban area than RTP does – NC’s military bases to the south (Fayetteville) and east (Jacksonville) have helped integrate the state with middle class black people, retired from the military into new careers. Both get pretty hot in the summer.

          Any software or hardware you’ve used in your studies – the company that makes it is a good target.

    2. Data Scientist*

      Better than a blog is to have a killer GitHub repo with code that showcases what you can do. That’s how I got my first Data Scientist job — I’m in the second, now as the Lead Data Scientist in my team.

      A blog is not going to be nearly as effective than actual code and examples of reports you can produce. Use public data sets to generate those, it doesn’t seem to be from an actual job. Good luck!

      1. Data Scientist*

        Forgot to say: add a link to your github repo to your resume — that’s how I got tons of interest from hiring managers when I applied for my first job in this field.

        1. banzo_bean*

          I do have my github listed on my resume with some code, but I could work on getting more into it. Do you typically put jupyter notebooks of just plain .py or .r files?

  81. Mill Miker*

    There’s a few colds going around the open office right now. I can usually avoid catching them, but it’s another item on the long list or reasons I said I’d never work in an open office again (this place wasn’t open office when I joined, and I’ve been job hunting since the switch).

    So with half the people in the building sick, we’ve decided to… have a potluck lunch apparently. After the food safety letter earlier this week, I’m definitely skipping out on this one.

    1. banzo_bean*

      Bring individual wrapped Halloween candy. Lol.
      Honestly, I’ve never been a fan of office potlucks. I love and trust my coworkers but they’re not in food service.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Yes, skip the potluck.
      I got the flu from a woman who brought in raw veggies. It was too late by the time she admitted just getting over the flu! Had I known…

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      That does sound like a plan with a few flaws in it. Maybe after the potluck, you can all do the teambuilding thing where you grab hands and climb around each other to try to un-knot the group, followed by actual face-licking?

      I won’t even eat meeting snacks from a common container this time of year. I’ll pour myself coffee from one of those Starbucks totes, but that’s as close to communal food as I’m willing to get until we have fewer than 2 people from my team of about 15 people out sick in a given week.

    4. JustaTech*

      This is why I’m working from home today, even though I really don’t enjoy it (lonely, boring). I’ve got a minor cold, but we’ve moved to an open office *and* one of my coworkers is immunocompromised.
      I went in to grab my laptop yesterday and her face went from “good morning” to “Get Out” when I said I had a cold (and was leaving).

  82. Today Sucks*

    I think I’m getting laid off today, or reassigned, or something. My supervisee, too.

    We have a meeting with grandboss, and I see that the HR person who handles “problem” situations also has that time blocked out on her calendar.

    The subject of the meeting was ominous and totally out of the blue, but neutral enough to give grandboss coverage for his own feelings. Making us think “uh oh” for several hours is not a big deal. And it’s Friday. Delivering bad news on a Friday is old fashioned management to make sure any emotion happens at home and not in the workplace. It’s supposed to be kind. It’s not.

    Just had to post something here. Can’t exactly talk to coworkers because I don’t know who knows what and I don’t want to put them in an uncomfortable position if they had gotten wind in advance. The people who are likeliest to have an inkling are coincidentally unavailable, including my boss. My boss was coincidentally unavailable when my work friend was let go. That meeting included the same HR person I just Outlook stalked.

    Even if it turns out okay in the end, I hate being treated this way. How can I get work done with this over my head? Why should I worry about getting xyz finished by 4:00 if I’m being laid off at 1:00?

    I need a punching bag in my office. I’ll try to requisition one if I survive.

    1. banzo_bean*

      I’m sorry, that sucks! I know the stress of ominous vague meetings. I’m sending good luck your way! And keep us updated

    5. Chronic Overthinker*

      Eeek! I was on the receiving end of one of those mysterious calendar items but I saw it coming as I had my review the day before. I knew something was up.

      I hate to assume, but I would assume the worst and hope for the best. Best of luck.

    7. Today Sucks*

      Thanks, everyone!

      Years ago I had a surprise Friday meeting that resulted in a reorganization that was so bad I asked to be let go 6 months later. Others I’ve known have been let go on a Friday.

      I’ve gotten to the point with this job that I didn’t care if I got let go because my boss & supervisee were such pains to deal with, but I don’t have a place to go so I have been hanging onto this job.

      Well… the bad news is that there’s a reorganization and that’s always hard. The good news is that I have a new boss and so does my supervisee!

      I look forward to having less stress in my life, even though it’s kind of a step down in responsibility.

      So glad this open thread was here, though. Bad news Fridays are definitely a thing. Also, by using “Today Sucks” as today’s moniker, then doing find-on-page to find my post, I discovered that the word “sucks” comes up a lot in the Friday thread.

      Best wishes to all those who posted about something that sucks today!

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        I’m glad it was good news in the end.

        Next time you “find in page”, add an asterisk to the end of a posting name. This is a feature Alison introduced recently to make such things easier (particularly if you’re searching for a LW to find additional information).

        So if you’re looking for posts by a poster called Pass The Shiraz, you can search for Shiraz* and avoid replies and other noise.

      2. juliebulie*

        Woo! That’s a relief! Maybe this reorg will turn out to be a good thing.

        (One thing I’ve noticed about layoffs is that no matter what day it happens, it always feels like Friday afterwards because I don’t have to go to work the next day. On the other hand, if it really is Friday anyway, then that doesn’t feel like as much of a treat.)

        1. Today Sucks*

          Yes, I think it has more to do with the comfort of the people left behind, not the comfort of the people getting the bad news.

    8. Kathenus*

      That sucks, I’ve been there myself. I’d make sure that I did anything I wanted to in case I was being laid off – download any personal documents/photos/whatever that you might not have access to if you left. Make sure you have whatever needed information that’s in your office or on your computer related to things like benefits, contact info, which might make the transition easier if you’re having to deal with HR or your boss after a layoff. Not saying to ignore work, but think to yourself if you left tonight for the last time what do you want to do to be personally ready for it and do that first. Then do any work-related if time allows and you are in the frame of mind to do so.

      Best of luck, I hope it’s something else, but I get the stress regardless.

      1. Today Sucks*

        Fortunately it’s just a reorg. *whew* I have some time to tie up those things before I have to move out of my office.

        1. Kathenus*

          Congrats on it being less bad, at least. Hope that all goes well with the reorg and your position.

  83. StoveTack*

    How do you all keep yourselves organized and manage unclear expectations. I’ve been struggling to keep on top of everything at work, likely because we’re a small startup with a young staff moving at s rapid pace. After a series of events, the executive director ended up turning into my de facto boss and supervisor. I am an inexperienced entry level employee. The ED is great, but has a ton on his plate and I also don’t think he’s used to managing so directly. I’ve ended up essentially managing our massive database in addition to taking on a few smaller projects.

    There are two things that are particularly difficult, that I’d appreciate feedback on. 1) I’ve never seriously managed a project before, I’ve realized that Im not as organized as I need to be, and as a result things keep slipping through the cracks. I’ve tried to build organization systems, both for myself and for the projects, and this has helped some but not totally. Some specific questions: 1) to what level to you update your trackers? Should I update it with every tiny task that comes my way? If not, how do I decide what to keep track of and what to leave to the wind? What if I incorrectly categorize something as unimportant and it ends up being important later? 2) what sort of things should go into those trackers, 3) how do you keep track of all the trackers?

    Issue 2) My boss is not excellent at communicating expectations. Indeed, I’m not officially managing any of these projects, and no one has explicitly told me that I’m the owner for almost all of them, as far as I can tell. Who the owner is is unclear. So, at first I wasn’t doing things that weren’t assigned to me: eg, keeping tabs on things, tracing and fixing bottle necks, implementing quality control. But after some time, I get the impression that my boss does want me to essentially manage the project, take ownership, etc. How do you all manage these things? Should I assume that I am the project manager for all projects on which I am a major contributor and don’t otherwise have clear owners? What are the typical things project managers have to do? What do they need to consider?

  84. Anonymouse*

    Hi everyone! Happy Friday!
    Thanks to the sanity that is AAM, I’ve successfully escaped my toxic former job and has worked at my new sane job for about 2 months now. Everything is great at the new place and I feel super grateful to have the reality check that is AAM to counter the PTSD from my old job.

    However, I’ve recently runned into an issue where people from my old job keeps contacting me for favors and just random stuff. For ex, my supervisor contacted me about giving him a doc when he probably could’ve tracked down the doc from HR at the old job himself. And then someone new from the org also contacted me about providing unpaid consulting to the org. The incredibly petty side of me wanted to ghost them or even worse say that because they stiffed me on paying out my vacation days, that I wouldn’t be cooperating with them any further. But alas, I still sent over the document. If/When/Now that this has become an ongoing and continuing trend, how should I proceed in laying down boundaries?

    I didn’t burn any bridges but believe you me I wanted to when I quit. Now that they’re contacting me again, I just want to demolish the whole damn bridge.

    1. secret chart*

      Don’t ghost them. Just set the boundary you want to set, make it clear what you’re gonna do and then do it. If you say “sorry, I can’t help, so busy at my new job, hope you understand”, then have those e-mails from them skip your inbox. Or maybe say you’ll help out with X, Y, and Z but only if they pay you.

      But don’t let them hold things hostage, like paying out vacation days. IANAL but I think they have to pay those anyway?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Unless OP’s in a state where vacation payout is mandatory or it’s expressly stated in the employee handbook that they do, no, her former employer doesn’t have to pay her for her unused time.

    2. banzo_bean*

      I mean just be forthright that you can’t help. It’s been two months so just say “I’m sorry I’m really busy with my new position at Better Teapots Inc, and I don’t really remember the details of the Low Quality Teapot project so I can’t provide much help. Best of luck with the project.”

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      Definitely don’t respond right away. If/when you do respond refer people back to someone at the company. And you are so busy, you definitely don’t have time to help but you hope everyone is well at Old Job!

      Congrats on the new job! Sounds fantastic!

    4. Anon o mus*

      I had to mention your incorrect English and to help in your professional development, note that the word “runned” is not a word in the English language. The word “ran” should be used.
      I hope this helps! I apologize for interrupting your thread.

    6. Annonno Today*

      The next time someone asks, say “Sorry, I don’t have the bandwidth to help.”

      After that, repeat on the next 3 requests, then stop answering them at all.

      WTH is unpaid consulting? Just NO.

    8. Quandong*

      Don’t respond instantly to requests from them, and definitely don’t answer the phone if they call. Keep repeating the same message, and they will stop contacting you. I wouldn’t even apologize but would say someyhing like ‘I’m not able to help you with this, and I work at [new job] now, so please don’t ask me again.’

      If people contact you after receiving that message, don’t reply to them.

  85. MeowYorker*

    Question for folks who manage software development!

    I manage web-based software development that’s outsourced to an outside agency. I’ve had *so* many frustrating issues with the products the agency delivers, and want to see if this is to be expected or I should look for someone more competent.

    When I get the testable version, I usually find quite a few errors, some of which are fundamental enough that I can’t test the workflows all the way through. Which makes me wonder how in the world the agency’s QA team could presumably get through the roadblocks I run into; sometimes I find obvious problems in workflow cases that the QA team clearly had not tested. I can’t tell if these cases were just too fringe for them to be included in the QA process, or if the agency has sloppy QA. It seems the agency’s QA might consist of developers who worked on the project, which doesn’t seem like a great idea, either.

    Anyway, I send it back for fixes. A few days to a few weeks later, I get another testable version with sometimes the same issues; other times, it’s flaky in other ways. After more rounds of fixes, the software goes live, and–surprise, surprise–it still has issues (existing or new), some serious enough that we decide to postpone marketing until they are fixed in the live environment.

    It’s at a point where I can’t fully trust it when the agency’s dev team says something has been fixed. I feel like I have to test every single thing, multiple times, to be sure that it is indeed working. (And I *do* test every single thing, as if I was a QA tester working for the agency, which… grrrr.)

    Does this sound like a typical software development project? I know, in a way, software needs to be used before all the kinks can be found and smoothed out, and I don’t know if I’m being too lenient on the agency’s work. Would love to hear what folks in similar roles think!

    1. BadWolf*

      I think you do want to build up a set of tests that you test every time.

      But you do hope that they are also testing every time (building automated testing so they can run regression every time).

      What sort of contract do you have with them? Do you know what their testing process is? Do they even employ testers or are they relying on their code developers to magically think of what to test?

      1. MeowYorker*

        I do create a list of tests/scenarios for each project, and go through that list every time. Issues I find during testing also go on that list, so those issues are tested in the next iteration.

        The contract might be a part of the issue–it doesn’t specify how bug-free the software has to be in order to be acceptable. Then again, I’m not sure how to quantify the degree of bug-freeness!

        I don’t know much about the agency’s testing process, though my impression is that the code developers and/or project managers are the ones testing–at least a lot of the time. Is “how do you test the software before delivering it to us?” the sort of question I can ask the agency and expect a fairly detailed answer to?

    2. Purt's Peas*

      If you describe your workflow accurately, report problems in that workflow accurately, those problems are reliably reproducible, and the company sends you a build that they say fixes your problems, then those problems should be fixed. That’s an absolute bare minimum baseline that this company should be meeting, and if they’re not, they are not doing good development work. Actual good development, especially for enterprise software, would take your workflow into consideration in their testing, and ensure it works when they send you the first build.

    3. ArtK*

      No this is not typical.

      I agree that you should have a complete set of acceptance tests in any case. That’s one part of the solution. Another part is to look at the contract with the agency to see what the SLA is. If they’re delivering stuff with a lot of bugs, that should be something that the contract penalizes them for. Things like “you don’t get paid if there are any sev 1 and sev 2 bugs in the delivered product.” If it wasn’t written that way, it needs to be modified.

      A third step is to make sure that the specifications are very detailed. What are the acceptance criteria for each feature? Are they SMART (Specific, Measureable, Achievable, Relevant, Time-bounded)? There are lots of good books and approaches for developing solid requirements.

      The fourth step is to hire a more competent agency.

      1. MeowYorker*

        Reading your response, I’m thinking the requirements/specs are a part of the problem. Our specs describe what should happen in each step of the workflow in broad strokes, but these definitely can be more specific. I probably need to better document the decisions that happen in conversations with the agency’s developers/PMs, too.

        Our contract doesn’t have anything approaching acceptance criteria–that’s problem #2. Can you recommend one or two books on this subject?

    4. Mill Miker*

      As someone who’s worked as a developer from the agency side before at multiple agencies: this doesn’t sound atypical. Disclaimer: I’ve become increasingly cynical, so… I guess take that into account.

      Getting costs down is their main goal.

      The developers will probably be asked to estimate time on the tasks, but they will probably also be under a lot of pressure to make those estimates smaller so the agency can charge less and win more bids. It is not unusual for a developer to estimate the amount of time to had something off to QA, but then have that estimate treated as the delivery date. Much twisting of words has been used to do this even when the developer tries to combat it.

      They most likely do not have a QA team. A QA team would sit idle too often (read: at all), and is therefore seen as a source of wasted money. The developers may be expected to QA their own work, which as you say is not great. If there’s project managers involved on the agency side, they may be expected to QA, but will usually take the developer’s word for it, as they are also under a lot of time pressure (their time is not billable). Whoever does the QA work might also be under pressure to not send things back to the developer, under the weird idea that somehow stops the mistakes from happening.

      There’s a decent chance whoever is “responsible” for QA does not have access to the tests you’ve provided. They maybe have been “cleaned up” into a set of requirements. In places that do agile very badly they may have been converted into “user stories” that aren’t very clear.

      Many developers do not like working at these kinds of companies, so the staff is often almost entirely fresh grads, with high turnover. If they have some more experienced developers, they will most likely be occupied with attending meetings (so customers feel confident) and handling the really complicated requests that the new hires can’t deliver.

      My advice: You’re going to have to QA their work, or switch to a much more expensive agency and hope that they’re actually better and not just working at higher margins.

      I’d also suggest getting a least one good developer in-house to help check this stuff over. Although I should warn that it probably won’t be a desirable job, so you might need to balance that duty with something more enticing.

      1. MeowYorker*

        Thank you for this insight from “the other side!” A lot of what you say rings true to me–the seeming absence of a QA team with the developer/PM doing some level of QA, them being under pressure and pulled in different directions, the need to be on time trampling quality…

        “or switch to a much more expensive agency and hope that they’re actually better and not just working at higher margins.” That last part is what’s holding me back from switching!

    5. Gumby*

      Do you have acceptance tests?

      When I worked in QA we had a very basic set of tests that, if the product did not pass, we wouldn’t even try to finish testing. We’d just go “this failed acceptance testing, try again and give us something worth using our time on.” But nicer.

      It won’t stop the apparent need for you to do your own QA (which can be outsourced separately from the development), but if you send the acceptance tests with the project requirements / specs, it might at least cut out a few of the back and forths. In an ideal world, they would go “oh, we aren’t doing any testing… hmmm” when they run through acceptance and then maybe they get curious and catch a few more bugs…

  86. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

    From the world of being a brand-new attorney navigating her first job ever: A couple of days ago, I had a very long (like 3:30 PM to closing, then again from 1-5 AM that night) panic attack over arguing a motion, as I have only done one before, but then I actually did it and it went pretty well. I lost, but I knew I would, and I didn’t stammer or anything.

    Had my first significantly negative feedback talk with my boss several weeks ago, which was unpleasant, but as I told him, I can’t fix what I’m doing if I don’t know about it, and I have made the effort to fix the problem since then. I think my boss was impressed by how I handled it (he hates giving feedback). The specific feedback was that I was handholding my paralegal too much and micromanaging, which he found patronizing, so I have eased up on that. My boss stressed to me that we want to keep him (he’s learning a shit ton and doing very well at his job), and I agreed.

    But, question for the group: occasionally he makes very small, picky-picky typographical errors or problems of phrasing in letters that are supposed to come from me. When I write letters, I’ll print out multiple versions to check for errors (even if I catch them after printing it on letterhead, which I’m aware is a waste of letterhead), and it seems he doesn’t do this. But I don’t want to be overly picky due to this feedback I got, so a lot of times I let it go. How do I balance the two?

    1. CatCat*

      I don’t think you should pick apart his methods and insist he do it your way or something (printing multiple versions). The letters are from you so you can edit the content, however. You definitely want to get rid of any errors. It sounds like you edit on paper, so just write your edits on the paper and give it back with “please incorporate these edits.”

      Also, I think you need to get clear on what constitutes “micromanaging” here. To me, it is proper to point out if there is a pattern of making actual errors. That would be different say from insisting that he has to print out and edit things on paper, or making a Thing of minor stylistic differences.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      If they go out over your signature, they are phrased exactly as you want. I don’t know the dynamics of your office. Can you go into the computer and correct these things before printing the final, leaving the paralegal out of it? Does it make more sense to return the draft to the paralegal with the corrections marked?

      What you can’t do is make the paralegal use your process for finding errors- the printing multiple drafts.

    3. anon attorney*

      Glad the motion went well. If it helps, I’ve been doing this for 12 years and I woke up at 3am the night before last freaking out about the motion I was going to argue yesterday! The stress does ease off but all of us get it now and again. Get as much practice as you can – that’s been the best thing for my nerves.

      If you’re signing a letter you get to decide what it says. But efficiency also matters in private practice and multiple hard copies sounds time consuming. If you have particular style preferences or ways you always want certain letters/points phrased (for example I like to send first letters after a new client meeting that day certain important things), work with your paralegal to create templates and autotexts. Equally, though, also consider letting phrasing pass if it’s correct but just not what you would have written – this kind of correction is excruciatingly confidence sapping to receive (ask my first boss how I know) and a poor use if your time.

      Automate what you can, give feedback on the rest, but focus on the outcome you want, not the process.

    4. HamlindigoBlue*

      Is he bringing the letters to you for your signature, or is he signing for you? I “did time” for a couple of years as a litigation paralegal, and if there were any errors on letters, they would circle them and give the letters back for correction. If your name is on it, as a former PL, I agree that the content should be up to your standards. When I first started, I would get corrected letters back. I knew it wasn’t the attorneys being difficult or having a personal problem with me, I just needed to learn to double-double check what I was giving them as a final product before wasting letterhead. If I wouldn’t have gotten those corrections back, I never would have improved. IMO, it’s not picky to circle errors. He has to understand that things like that make you look bad since your name is on it and not his.

  87. Kyubey*

    So my current company is relocating to a different state at the end of the year. I originally had no interest in going (moving from Boston to Florida) for various reasons. My boss really wants me to relocate and has been trying to convince me, and offered to fly me to the new office for a week to work there and get to know the new city (I already told them over a month ago I didn’t want to move, but they need me) I’ve been job searching and they know this and seem to be panicking that nobody from this office wants to move and many of the new hires there are not working out.

    I felt pressured to at least visit but it’s unlikely I’ll move unless I get no other job offers by December 31st (the day I would have to leave or move). My question is, is it wrong to let the company pay for a flight & hotel for me to visit if I don’t intend 100% on going? I really need a reference from this job and I feel like they think I’d just be taking a free trip to Florida if I say I won’t move.

    1. Clementine*

      The point of the Florida trip is to make you love it. If that fails, then that is just how it goes. So no, it is not wrong. He already knows you aren’t keen on moving.

      1. banzo_bean*

        Yes, and you’ve been totally honest that you’re not very interested upfront so it shouldn’t come as a huge shock that doesn’t change when you move. I’m assuming you can’t work remotely? A couple of trips out to Florida in the middle of winter while working remote wouldn’t be awful?

    2. Alex*

      You should definitely go–you’ve been 100% honest about the fact that you aren’t interested in moving, and they’ve reacted to that by offering you a trip to visit to try to change your mind. If you were 100% sure you would move, they wouldn’t bother offering that!

      I’d also say that it would look BETTER for you to take the trip, because it shows that you are hearing them out.

    3. Mill Miker*

      Since the goal of the trip is to change your mind, one could argue it would actually be *more* wrong to take the trip if you *did* 100% intend on moving with the company.

    4. sacados*

      Agreed with everyone else. If you are 110% sure that NOTHING could ever make you change your mind…. then maybe I would say no.
      But if it’s even a case of “I’m 90% sure that I don’t want to move and this trip won’t change my mind, but I suppose there’s a possibility I could be blown away” then I think you’re in the clear to allow them to wine and dine you.

    6. tangerineRose*

      “seem to be panicking that nobody from this office wants to move” You’d think they’d anticipate something like that. That’s a very big move.

    7. ..Kat..*

      If you do decide to move, negotiate a good pay increase. If they really need you, they should be willing to give you a decent raise as well as relocation costs.

  88. LGC*

    Okay so.

    I’m on the event planning committee at my job (local nonprofit). We’re planning a community event with booths from around our local community.

    One of the booths is from an MLM. (At least.) I have…many moral objections to how most MLMs are run.

    I didn’t push back on it when they signed up this time, but going forward…should I? And what’s the most effective way to do so?

    1. TrueOfficeConfessions*

      I guess it depends on the guidelines for your community event? What’s the intent of the event? What can people display/share/sell (or no sales?).

      1. LGC*

        Community resources (we primarily serve a low income level population). So that’s another reason why I’m internally like “oh HELL no.”

        1. BadWolf*

          Seems like you could say, “Thank you for applying. Upon review, your group is a business and not a community resource (such as the Library, The Local Food Bank, Dress for Success).”
          If you don’t have guidelines on what “counts” as a community resource for this event, might be a good time to come up with some.

          1. LGC*

            …and you just answered the question below! Thanks – I’ll keep this in mind for the next time we do this. This is my first time doing anything like this ever so a lot of this has been learning on the fly for me.

            1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

              One thing that can be helpful generally when you’re figuring out new stuff is to look around and see what other groups do. Look at community resource fairs in other cities/put on by other orgs: what are their booth applications like? Do they allow for-profit groups? If so, do they make a distinction between handcrafts and resellers (“no resellers” is a good way to exclude MLM businesses while letting in other small local businesses)? Do they make them be “event sponsors” and charge them large sums of money to be there? Getting an idea how 3-5 other groups handle it helps give you ideas for things to try yourself. As a bonus, if you are saying similar things as other groups that put on such events, most people you end up turning down will have already had similar rejection reasons from other events and may be more likely to shrug and move on since it isn’t the first time.

    2. secret chart*

      If you really wanna push back, the effective place is in the policy for what booths you’ll allow in. I’m not sure what kind of wording you could do to exclude MLMs but there’s probably something. I’m also not sure it’s necessarily a great idea to ban them, but I understand why you want to, if you feel they’d be preying on the community.

      1. LGC*

        Yeah, that’s going to be a TRICKY policy to suggest! Plus, I’m often the squeaky wheel at my job in general, so I’m not sure if I’m the best person to bring this up.

      2. san junipero*

        I’m not familiar with how this stuff works. Can you not just say “No multi-level marketing businesses allowed?”

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          The people who are in it so deep they’re doing vendor booths will try to fight you and claim they don’t have any concept of this “MLM” you speak of. That they’re a “business owner” who has wares to sell and therefore they don’t understand what you’re saying about “No MLM”. [Yeah…this is a huge issue and why these folks are usually very much brainwashed and unaware of what a business actually is…you’re not a business owner any more than the person selling knock off watches out of their trunk is a business owner.]

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So my experience isn’t saying “LOL No” to MLM but I have a background in saying “Nope” to people who “have businesses” that are actually just ebay businesses.

      I simply say that their business doesn’t meet our guidelines for vendor booths. Since they must have an established retail location and therefore anything out of your home is no-go.

      But that would mean that you’d possibly get push back if you allow people to do say a home crafting booth. But you can say that if it’s not a home-made thing it has to have a store front…that’s where I’d start leaning towards.

      But honestly, I see these booths EVERYWHERE I go for vendor booths. I go to a charity event. MLM sprinkled in there. I go to the fair. MLM sprinkled in there.

      They’re paying for space, right? I would be less annoyed by letting them in to sell their inventory. But I’d police a bit to make sure they aren’t milling around acting like mall-kiosk vendors and trying to lure people into their booths unless that’s a thing that your other booths do. Usually they’re always lowkey, just sitting behind their table with their candles or whatever spread out. So it may or may not be worth the push to get them banned.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        *Edit* This is my background in terms of being a wholesale manufacturer who uses retailers. I used to get lots of fly by night websites all “Hey can I carry your product, bro?” NO. You cannot. They’d come in and brutally undercut my brick and mortars and other companies with real overhead. So that’s the idea here.

        So if your whole thing is that it is supposed to be community resources, I agree to word the policy regarding it must be a service or item for your target cause! Therefore no dude, your oils don’t count, they are not actually medicine and are not in the right price range for our clients.

    4. LGC*

      So – thanks for your advice, everyone! This is a new event for our organization (first year), so…I think we’re all learning.

      As for how I found out – it was after the vendors were accepted by someone else. I did a lot of the signage and recognized one of the names. (Not naming it here, but it’s somewhat well known, and it’s related to personal finance.) There are a lot of other resource fairs in our community, but I haven’t been to them since community outreach isn’t a usual part of my job and I don’t live in the community. Some of the other committee members have, though.

  89. Free Meerkats*

    So, much of my brain space is being eaten up by Yahoo crippling Groups. I own a work-related group that has 20 years of accumulated knowledge that Yahoo will be deleting in 2 months. I have decided on Groups.io for a replacement. Of course, they are being overwhelmed right now with people transferring groups. Luckily, from what I’ve been told, their transfer process is relatively painless, but I had to purchase a premium plan for a year. It’s totally worth it to me, this will automate the process.

    And I’m managing the questions and anxieties of the nearly 3000 members.

    If you’re on or own a Yahoo group, get on this.

    1. secret chart*

      +all the internet support

      The thing about Yahoo Groups vanishing all their data in a couple months blindsided me out of nowhere. I think one of the ones I’m on is going to google, but I don’t know about transferring the archives. Will groups.io get the archive as well?

      1. Free Meerkats*

        They say it brings over everything except attachments (which I don’t allow, anyway) and calendar entries (which we hardly use.)

        So I have my fingers crossed.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Holy shi…I honestly didn’t know that groups were still around. I stopped with them when the migrated from the “Clubs” to the “Groups” whenever that was. I’m shocked they’re just now washing them out.

      Then again I only just say tinypic went under. Leave me here to wallow in the shattered pieces of my youth.

      How stressful, I hope the migration process doesn’t cause you to lose a large chunk of your membership. Usually when platforms change you lose contact with so many people =(

    3. sacados*

      Did you see the thing about UK phone numbers? I saw this on twitter– people are freaking out because apparently the system in the UK for allowing people to transfer their phone numbers across carriers is also handled via a yahoo group! So now they’re scrambling trying to figure out what to do.

    4. Mama Bear*

      Several of my Yahoo Groups moved to Groups.io within the last year and it has been a decent transition. There will be things lost, unfortunately, but it’s been overall a good move.

  90. Anon but Visible*

    I am “open to recruiters” on LinkedIn, and I am currently employed. This leads to a fair number of inquiries, of varying quality.
    A few days ago, I got one from an internal HR employee, that was several paragraphs long, and which pointed out how perfect I was for the role.
    I responded to this effect: “You may not remember, but I have been through the interview cycle. I never did hear back.”
    (The interview cycle was 2 phone interviews and a half-day onsite. I suspect the main issue was compensation, as the interviews went well enough and they alluded to compensation issues in the interviews.)
    She was apologetic. Unlike a lot of people, I do not get particularly upset about not hearing back, so it really did not bother me. I promised to point any potential candidates to them, and left it there.

  91. Aapke paas kaam hai?*

    Any advice on translating Indian education & work experience to a software developer job in the US?

    My husband has started looking for his first job in the US. In India, he was working toward a Bachelor of Computer Applications at a school I hadn’t heard of (not IIT, IIx, JNU, etc.). He dropped out when he was ~75% done. He later got SQL and .NET training from a private training…company? School? I don’t really know which it was. I get the feeling that Indian educational institutions and their ‘certificates’ are a dime a dozen and often not accredited, so I wonder how these look to American employers. Any thoughts on that?

    As far as work experience, he went on to work for the school and trained others in SQL and .NET. He also worked as a SQL administrator for several months. Any advice for him on what kinds of jobs to look for? How to angle his previous experience? Training he should pursue here in the US to get him started?

    1. Purt's Peas*

      What I usually see is people getting a master’s in the US, and then applying to dev jobs. I see a lot of applicants applying for entry-level dev jobs with a bachelor’s from a Chinese or Indian university and a master’s from a US university. I’m only marginally involved in hiring at my current spot, but the hiring managers seem to treat that bachelor’s + master’s combo the same as a bachelor’s from a well-known/reasonably good US university.

    2. san junipero*

      De-emphasize the schooling and emphasize the skills, especially SQL Administration. There are tons of SQL Admin jobs out there (I don’t know as much about .NET, unfortunately).

      I’d say he should build his resume like anyone else: talk about the things he achieved in his roles, especially whatever would apply most to the position he wants. I don’t know that he really needs additional training (I’m personally skeptical that he would need a Master’s if he has solid work experience and the skills to pass technical interviews), but if so, learning more about the backend in general might be helpful, like writing APIs. He could also look into other popular backend languages like Python and Javascript (specifically Node.js).

    3. Cookie Monster*

      I would actually recommend paying for an education equivalency service!! Make sure they’re a part of the National Association of Credential Evaluation Services (NACES) or Association of International Credential Evaluators (AICES) because those are the only two the State Department recognizes. They’ll take all of his coursework and certifications into account as well as his work experience and issue an official equivalency for a US degree. Not only will this give him a clear sense of how his background translates to US job postings, he also can submit it as part of applications, which should help speed any non-immigrant visa applications on his behalf along. Of course, this does not matter if he has a marriage-based green card or citizenship through you, but it can be helpful.

      1. Aapke paas kaam hai?*

        Wow, I’d never heard of this before! Thank you so much for the info.

        As a side note, he already has permanent resident status through marriage to me, so at least that hurdle is cleared. Thanks again!

  92. TrueOfficeConfessions*

    True Confessions: I throw away take out containers from the fridge when it’s been there for more than couple days.

    This is an industrial fridges used by many employees. If no one did this, we’d run out of space for our daily lunches.

    Yesterday, I put post its on several mystery plastic bags. If no post it removal occurs next week, I’m tossing out a bunch of mystery plastic bags (assuming there’s no tupperware/pyrex/etc inside, keeping all science experiments thankfully sealed in).

    1. zora*

      Good call! you are doing a service.

      We have a pretty good system in our work fridge, and a small office, so it stays pretty manageable. But my confession is that I throw away cheap, disposable plastic containers when they sit in the dish rack for too long.
      Not anything nice, or glass, but the take out soup container that was in the dish rack for 2 weeks. Nope, went in recycling on Monday.

      1. Goldfinch*

        As I’ve said here previously, my mom broke down in tears when her grody Tupperware was chucked out by a colleague. That Tupperware was a wedding gift from her own mother.

        Stop being a ****ing ******* and leave other people’s things alone. “Cheap and disposable” is NOT your call.

        1. Shelly*

          When my tupperware got gross, some poor soul washed it and stuck it on top of the fridge, but now I feel too much guilt and shame to actually retrieve it….

        2. CheeryO*

          Wow, this is aggressive! Anything that sits for two weeks is totally fair game. If everyone left their stuff in the drying rack for two weeks, there would never be room for anything.

        3. zora*

          Wow, really?? I mean, it’s a shared kitchen, not your home, you don’t get to just leave your stuff lying around indefinitely. If everyone did that, the whole kitchen would be full of trash. If I care about my containers, then I have to keep an eye on them and make sure I’m cleaning them and taking them home. Which I do, and it’s not difficult.

          Also, I am not throwing out anyone’s brand-name reusable containers. Only when it’s disposable items like those you get from a restaurant for take out. And only when I know for sure it’s been in the exact same spot for 2 weeks or more. If there’s a chance someone has been bringing the same container back on multiple days, then I won’t touch it. But we also have a very small office, I know what is being used and what isn’t, it’s very clear.

          Calling me names is a pretty extreme reaction.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      Whoa. It’s not your call how long people keep things in the refrigerator (and even if it were, “a couple of days” is way too short).

      If you want to assign yourself the task of managing the refrigerator, you need to create a reasonable system. For example: Anything left in the fridge on Friday at 3:00 p.m. will be thrown out.

      1. TrueOfficeConfessions*

        These are the example stakes: Toss a take out container from Buffalo Wild Wing on a Wednesday morning, that’s been in since Thursday.

        1. TrueOfficeConfessions*

          And there’s already a general “Fridge will be cleaned on the last Friday of the month” that doesn’t actually happen.

          1. TrueOfficeConfessions*

            And I work with well paid people, so generally food secure (extraordinary circumstances aside).

            1. tears of Jupiter*

              You have no idea what food issues someone else may have. You are being unreasonable and unkind. Stop.

          2. Glomarization, Esq.*

            I think it would be nicer to try to make the monthly fridge cleaning happen, or make it happen more frequently, rather than toss people’s stuff with little or no warning.

            1. Lucette Kensack*

              Right. If the system isn’t working, change it. You can’t just throw away things that belong to other people (who get to decide for themselves whether they want to eat week-old wings) without warning.

            2. Diahann Carroll*

              Yeah, the law firm I used to work for did Friday refrigerator clean-outs every Friday, not just the one at the end of the month. It was much better for ensuring there was always room for people’s lunches during the week.

      2. pancakes*

        @Lucette That’s been the exact policy in two offices I’ve worked in and it works very well. It’s only fair to give people a schedule and stick to it, regardless how well-paid they are.

    3. Print Jobs*

      My confession is that sometimes I cancel print jobs because it’s awfully large and backs up my simple 1-page print job for the next hour….

    4. Anon o mus*

      So you’re the d-bag who keeps throwing out my good lunch when I was hungry enough to eat a decayed toad. Sounds like you need more work to do rather than inspecting everybody’s lunch for a expired by date determined by you.

      Now that I got that off my chest, I better go check the fridge and see what my lunch looks like.

    5. Emilia Bedelia*

      True Confessions: I do the same thing.

      We have a minifridge the size of your average 2 drawer filing cabinet, for about 20 people. At any time there are 4-5 disposable containers with leftovers from the cafeteria (aka, not a nice container, I’m not a monster). They stay there for weeks, til the contents are moldy/dry/unrecognizable, and then people complain that the fridge smells weird and there isn’t enough room. As a daily brown-bagger, this incenses me beyond belief, and every few weeks, I go into a murderous rage and throw out anything not fit for human consumption. No one has EVER complained, because no one remembers that they put the last 2 bites of their stupid quinoa bowl in the fridge 3 weeks ago. I know who the most common culprits are… even after mentioning the issue to them in person, they’ve never changed. Hence, moldy salad garbage rampage.

    6. Mama Bear*

      I’d be frustrated with you.

      A system that worked pretty well at a former office (tech incubator, so had a shared fridge for a lot of little companies) was a colored dot sticker system. Every week there was a new dot color. The office manger for the suite put a color on the containers and a color on the chart on the fridge each Monday. When the week was up, everything with that color dot was thrown out. If you added something new – no dot = no toss. If you wanted to keep it you could remove the dot.

      1. zora*

        Oooo, I do actually love this system. I’m going to save it in case I’m looking for a new system in the future!

  93. Kali*

    I have my first PhD interview on the 28th! It’s at the university I currently attend, and I have a pre-interview meeting planned with the supervisor. I need to prepare a ten minute presentation on my current research and how it’s relevant to the project. I’m planning to read all the referenced papers in the project description, plus as many others as seem relevant, particularly those focusing on techniques (molecular biology). Any advice? UK-based.

    1. Serious Sam*

      If you are APPLYING for a Phd, how have you done any research already?
      PhD students are the cheap/slave labour upon which the UK academic system is built. You are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing them. You must take off the rose-tinted glasses you appear to be wearing.

      You absolutely must talk in private with a number of separate Phd students in the department & research group. What is your supervisor/PI’s reputation like? How many of your supervisors students have failed to complete their degrees? Does anyone know why?
      Ask them what they would ask in your position? What would they do differently?
      What do people do after a PhD in your department? How many find relevant employment?
      What services does the University or Student’s Union have specifically for post-grad students, such as viva preparation?

      1. Kali*

        The research for my Masters project and anything relevant done as part of a bachelors. I’m not sure why you think I’m wearing “rose-tinted glasses”?

        1. MD PhD*

          Master student course work is not research.
          You’ll understand when you have completed your PhD.
          Good luck with your interview!

    2. Nesprin*

      Good luck! Def read the lab’s recent work- this will give you a sense of what they like doing and the author list will give you a sense of who they work with.
      The best thing you can do in your interview is talk to as many current PhD students as possible: advisors vary in quality widely, and there is essentially no bailout if your advisor is terrible or broke. There is no management training for advisors, nor is there selection anywhere in academic hiring for sane individuals who should be in charge of other human beings.
      So, ask about level of mentorship (1:1 1x/day? 1x/week+ group meeting? you’re on your own until your defense?) how authorship is assigned, how conflicts are handled, expected hours. Talk about how how the lab is funded and what the PI’s grant track record looks like, and how you’d be funded and whether there’s the money to pay you for your doctorate.

    3. I❤️Spreadsheets*

      Good luck.
      I started my PhD (in Education) last month. I made sure to go over my application, personal statement, proposal and the articles I had referenced.
      Where are you hoping to study?

      1. Kali*

        It’s the same uni I’m currently attending, which is a huge benefit in terms of learning about the potential supervisors.

  94. zora*

    JOB SEARCH ACCOUNTABILITY THREAD

    Hi folks!! Sorry I missed last week, so much for the accountability to myself, ugh!
    Anyway, post here any updates on your job hunt, or just venting, we’re here to support each other!

    1. House Tyrell*

      A former colleague asked me to apply to a job in his department awhile ago and even wrote the job description to match my skills! I applied in late August and they’ve moved the hiring timeline back repeatedly for this role and another, more junior one in the office (my friend’s brother actually interviewed for it yesterday after his interview was pushed back 2 weeks, but he also applied around August.) I emailed my former colleague last week asking if he could update me on the new timeline and have yet to receive a response. I want/need a new job so desperately that it’s hard to mentally move on and wait to be pleasantly surprised later.

      1. Horseshoe*

        I’d say that moving the hiring timeline back repeatedly is a sign that they aren’t super sure if they need to hire. It makes me wonder if they are having some funding troubles, which your friend probably wouldn’t be able to tell you about.

        Also, if your friend knows the reason but it isn’t a reason he can share, that might be why he just didn’t send an email, for lack of not knowing how to say anything about it.

    2. zora*

      My update: I still haven’t done as much as I would like.

      I did go to a little networking event on Tuesday night, and brought my own personal business cards. And I actually made a point of telling everyone I’m looking for a new job and the kind of thing I’m looking for. Which is something I have been struggling with. So that was good! It was a small event, only a handful of people, so no one had a specific opening they knew about, but they were all super friendly and it was nice to get a lot of encouragement and practice talking to people about my career.

      I still want to work on writing out a career narrative and figuring out how to get it into a paragraph, so i don’t ramble so much. But still, it was good!

      I am going to another event next week that is specifically a workshop for people job hunting, so I’m hoping that will be really helpful.

      Looking forward to everyone’s updates!

    3. wingmaster*

      My job hunt is actually going well now. Yesterday, 3 companies reached out to me for interviews! So in total, I am currently interviewing at 6 companies..I hope 1 of the 6 ends with an offer!!

      Next Monday, I have a video conference with a panel. I spoke with the HR Recruiter earlier this week to help prep for Monday. It seems like this might be the final round. It’s with key people I would work with, and I have a presentation. I’ve yet to do an on-site interview (I would have to fly for this), but just basing on their hiring timeline it seems like after my video interview, they will generate an offer in the next couple weeks. It seems like a great company. My mom tells me it’s quite normal for companies to hire people without having on-site interviews, I wonder if anyone else has experienced this?

      1. Lemon Squeezy*

        I’m working at (absurdly large well-known retailer) as a software engineer, and didn’t have an on-site interview. I did have multiple video interviews as part of the process. Not sure as to commonality, but it definitely happens.

        1. wingmaster*

          Thanks for commenting. I just got off the phone with a hiring manager at another well-known company. It looks like the same situation where she mentioned the next step will be an on-site or Skype and then an offer will be made by the end of this month. So it looks like it’s not as unusual. It would still be nice to be in-person however, since these are both relo jobs.

      2. zora*

        that is quite a few options, good luck!

        And I agree, I think it’s becoming more common to hire without an onsite interview, especially for tech companies and startups.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yup. I work for a software company, and all four of my interviews with them were held over the phone.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I would want to visit the site for *me* not them. Even if they have a video tour, there are things that just aren’t visible.
        For example, I briefly worked somewhere with a mildew problem — I was so very glad that was a temp job. (No I don’t want to extend the assignment and here’s why…)

    4. Mill Miker*

      Mine is going far too slowly. I’m stuck looking for remote jobs in US timezones, but that hire *outside the US* (whoo Canada), which narrows the field quite a bit, while upping the competition considerably. I had a few dream jobs I was working towards, but over the last year most of those companies have 180ed into places I’d never want to work.

      I’ve had a string of bad jobs I’d like to break, but each job that’s been bad or suddenly turned bad has just added to my worry that they’re all bad. The aforementioned 180s aren’t helping with the feeling either.

      I think I usually write good application materials, it’s just a struggle to get available positions and a fistful of optimism together at the same time.

        1. Mill Miker*

          Thanks for the tip. I’ve been sticking mostly to industry-specific boards, but I might have to take a closer look at this.

      2. zora*

        I totally understand the struggle. I spent a long time unemployed and underemployed because I couldn’t get myself together to do compelling applications.

        Just try to take it one step at a time, and be kind to yourself! You’re doing your best!

  95. Mr.Scanner*

    My grand-boss is urging me to apply for the vacancy my direct supervisor left, especially since there was a really weak applicant pool so far. But I only have 1 year of direct experience. Should I ask my junior peers what they think before applying, since I would be supervising them if that works out?

    1. Me*

      nooooooo. they’re going to feel like they have to say nice things.

      If youre interested and feel like you can do the job apply. But please don’t put those junior to you or who you might supervise in a bad position.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      You can ask advice from people who know you well outside of work, if you like.
      But go ahead and apply, if you’re interested. You have to be uncomfortable to learn and grow.
      Best of Luck

  96. Emily*

    Hello,

    Is there anyone out there who works in the field of plant biology / botany / horticulture science?

    (Or anyone currently studying this in college – I’d like to hear your thoughts too.)

    I got a liberal arts degree in 2008, but always loved studying science and especially horticulture. I’m now considering going to grad school for a master’s in plant biology, after having taken several courses in horticulture from a large local university (evening classes, while I work a day job in an office). This university offers undergrad certificate programs in horticulture, but I find that I’m drawn toward microbiology, plant genetics, etc., and am interested in studying/learning more about plant biology. I’ve looked into eligibility requirements for a couple master’s programs, and it looks like I’d have to take a few courses I didn’t take in undergrad (Bio and Chem), but I could take those easily enough through a local university.

    Questions for you are:

    1. Did you establish a career after a bachelor-level college education?
    Or did you get an advanced degree?

    2. If you have an advanced degree, do you believe that it has helped you career-wise?

    3. Also, if you went to grad school, how did you manage the education-related costs? Loans? Combination of loans and work?
    How did the financial piece work for you, and do you feel that the degree was worth the costs associated with it?

    4. Lastly,
    What specific type of work do you do — research? (Lab or Field? A mix?) Teaching?
    Do you enjoy the work? Do you find it interesting? Fulfilling?

    Thanks in advance, I’d really appreciate hearing some different perspectives on this.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      One friend has a bio undergrad degree from a 2nd tier college, focus on animals and genetics, lives in the US South in a biotech hub. She works in a lab testing samples. It doesn’t pay well, and she’s struggled to find positions that keep her above the poverty line. She is hampered by a lack of popular technical skills, so if you go that route, check job listings for specific types of testing that are hot in your area and find opportunities to learn them – community colleges are sometimes more hands-on than 4 year universities.

      My old roommate also has a bio undergrad degree focus on limnology (lakes n streams), from a 1st tier college, also US South. She has a career in state government doing field work assessing stream health, but her dept is often targeted by our state legislature. She seems content with her career choices, and has been able to support herself comfortably, but her expenses are relatively low.

      I *think* the difference between the two careers comes down to area of study, tech they were exposed to in school, early differences (room mate started on limnology in high school at school with advanced tech), and luck.

      Teaching at college level is not really an option without a PhD, and even there it’s hard to get something that pays decently. Weirdly, high school biology pays better in our area (and iirc, can be taught with an MSc) than the bottom tier of college teaching (community colleges or 4-year college adjuncts).

      As for benefits – run the numbers for yourself, because every program and area of the country is going to be different. Research what a degree would cost, look at local job listings – what salary do they want? How many of them require MSc vs BSc? Researching the job market now will help you focus on a decent-paying area in your studies.

      I got an MBA (2002) through a full-time program, paid for it with scholarships (tuition), part-time work and loans. The cost of my degree was about $70K including the lost income (going from full-time job to part-time job). The pay increase I got was about $25K/year, so I recovered all the costs in just under 3 years – well worth it.

      A reliable room mate (now husband) reduced my costs significantly ($10K or more…)

    2. Hibiscus*

      I’d follow Dr. Sara Taber on Twitter for a while–she’s an agriculture quality expert with a lot of opinions and shares her knowledge freely.

      1. pancakes*

        She’s good. I’m not in the field but follow her because her posts & perspective are interesting.

    3. What you should know before grad school*

      I have a MSc and BSc in related fields and 15+ post grad years in the agriculture/ plant biotech industry (where people with my degrees and ones you’re considering are often interchangeable).

      First off, good job to you for thinking this through before taking the leap. It can be a very good career if you sweat the details.

      1 & 2. I went straight through to get a MSc because I knew it would it would be easier to start a career in the industry with an advanced degree. Both my degrees are from U.S. public land grant universities whose specific departments are top tiers in this field, and the MSc (at NC State University) I chose in part bc of that and in part bc it was in the Research Triangle, which is like the Silicon Valley of ag/plant biotech. Nowadays I’d say that if you wanted to work in industry, a specific BSc *might* get you a contractor/ temp position, which would be low-paying, no benefits, and involve greenhouse/field work (weekends, manual labor). Specific MSc puts you in better position for an entry level permanent/full-time job (many are BSc min/MSc preferred). PhD can make you even more so for some jobs but also can shut you out for others (and there’s an abundance of PhDs) – in the biotech side (vs “applied”) I feel like there are even more PhDs trying to find jobs… So yes, my advanced degree and its reputation helped for sure. Though I personally value years of experience + ability to learn on the job more, you might not even get looked at (and there will always be a subsection who believe you must have a PhD). As a side note, specifically for plant science/botany/hort, some folks have felt like the value of their degrees have been diluted over the years by the rise of the Master Gardener certification (a volunteer certification available to the public), especially in agriculture extension type jobs.

      3. Do NOT consider grad school in this area where you’d have to pay out of pocket or get loans. I really think it doesn’t make financial sense. Also, it’s a mark of a department’s good grad program that they can cover their students for the entirety of their studies. Typically, you’d apply for grad school, and as part of the acceptance, you’d receive the offer of a teaching or research assistantship (TA or RA, and RA’s are better even if you have to teach a little with it). It should cover everything (tuition and living expenses) – you’ll be a broke student poverty-line or less for a few years but without student loan debt. Some people take out loans or try to do under the table second jobs just to improve lifestyle, but I’d really be careful about that. Also, where and with whom you do your grad work is important – departments and professors have reputations and connections that can get you networking while still in school – try to find out where alums of the program end up (some profs/depts have a real bias against anything but academia).

      4. I started off in research, mostly lab/greenhouse, some field; moved to development, gradually increasing in field until wholly managing field; soon to be going back into research to start my own lab. Teaching formally only as a grad student, but have found ways to officially and unofficially mentor students and/or junior scientists (mostly because it’s important for me to “pay it forward”).

      Unasked for bonus topics: if you’re a woman or POC, the industry is still dominated by old, white men with traditional gender thoughts/ conservative values. They are retiring, and times are changing… but sometimes it feels slow/ they are replaced by young white men/ good old boys club in effect/ etc. Biotech side sometimes less so, any field role even more so. Also, consider where you want to live – if not in one of the hotbeds for the industry, many jobs are rural or you may need to move around to move up.

      I’m cautionary because I think it’s important to go in eyes open and with appropriate expectations. My career has been varied and interesting, and frankly, now more lucrative than I expected (partly bc of good choices like above, partly bc I’ve taken some roller coaster risks) ! While I don’t see myself as married to my career, I’m passionate enough about it that I do related volunteering in my free time. Good luck!

      1. Emily*

        Thank you so much for taking the time to write this for me.

        You’ve given me precisely the type of perspective and useful information I was hoping for — it’s a lot to consider. Which, since I really want to think through all the various pros & cons of this before making any decisions, is extremely helpful advice.

        I also appreciate your extra note about being a woman &/or POC in the field — this is certainly on my mind also, so it’s nice to hear a bit of your perspective about what that experience could be like.

        Best,
        Emily

        1. What you should know before grad school*

          Sure thing. Regarding being in the field, there will be many times you’ll be the only or one of few women or POC in the field. Not everyone can deal with that day in, day out. However, being able to have hands-on field experience, even just for a couple of years, gets respect and really opens the door to other/higher positions. This can be problematic for equity given the lack of representation mentioned above, but at least you’ll know now.

  97. Pineapple Incident*

    I’m in a new role where my projects are kind of a moving target – one of the big ones is to develop a new knowledge management culture for the office. My first efforts are going to specifically target the shared drive and its use versus one’s home drive that others can’t access except by IT intervention. Our senior people aren’t even sure when and when not to use it, so I’m sure to uncover more things of that nature as I talk to more people in different roles.

    Any knowledge management professionals out there that have recommendations or resources for this process? I’m attempting to benchmark by interviewing staff on what they do to stay organized, how they use the shared/home drives, and if they’ve ever had any resources in another job that they thought were useful.

    Any input appreciated – thanks!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m not 100% sure I know what you’re asking, but if I’m understanding you correctly, I think principle of least privilege should apply here. The assumption should be that every document is private… until someone else needs to have access to it, and then you share it with that person as read-only… unless that person needs to be able to comment on it, and then you share it with that person as review-only… unless that person needs to edit it, and then you share it with that person with full write access.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Our work is with clinical trials, so the files that need to be shared are with management of those trials – audit items, monitoring standards, SOPs, policies governing data management, and IRB-related documentation. These can’t be isolated on one person’s home drive since we need some degree of redundancy in accessing these – the few people who’d need this can be given access to a particular folder on the shared drive without everyone seeing it. Our portion of the shared drive is only full access to me and one other person within the department, and the segments of the drive are accessible by certain teams depending on their function. The least privilege thing applies to individual documents, sure, but we’re more talking about things that govern management of trials, that others need to reference.

          1. Pineapple Incident*

            Not really what I’m getting at – more formal knowledge management framework and resources needed here. I’m following guidelines from the American Productivity and Quality Center already, and our work is too sensitive for Google Drive.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Thank you!! This is actually a good starting point – I think some people on the team are missing some of these basics, and this is definitely part of what I need to address. I like the below idea as well re: ‘work in progress’/reference material files on personal drives vs. official or approved versions of documents on the shared drive – I may ask my boss what she and our director would prefer once I start getting into the nitty gritty of that. Some of the eventual deliverables will be a set of expectations for shared vs. local/home drives, a timeline to get things that need shared access moved, and a super brief SOP on setting up a restricted access/limited sharing folder for items that need to be shared between a smaller subset of the team.

        Anything else you have to share re: records and information mgmt I’d like to read! I really appreciate the help.

        1. Former Non Profit*

          Stress the need for standardized naming conventions on shared drives! Also, can you establish or follow retention guidelines on shared drives? Like, if this document hasn’t been opened/modified for 3 years (or 90 days or 1 year or whatever makes sense in your line of work), it will be deleted? If you want to reach out via email, mine is r hulslan 3 at the sound a prospector makes. (subtract the spaces!)

    3. Former Non Profit*

      Can you set up some rules that local drives are only for Work In Progress or reference materials? That official records/versions/data MUST be kept on shared drives?

  98. LlamaDataGeek*

    My old manager at the company I left a year ago has just contacted me to ask me if I could do some database updates for them (I’m a llama herder professionally, but I have a technical background and find it useful to know where the llamas are, when they were last herded, etc etc). I said I could, we chatted a bit, and they were having the operations person get in touch with me about specifics. I just got the contract, and they’ve offered $30 an hour. Actual local database contractors would charge about $150.
    My first reaction is to laugh and tell them I wouldn’t get out of bed for $30 an hour, but ideally I’d stay on good terms with these folks.
    Any suggestions for a better reaction?

    1. Jamie*

      Wow. As someone who has done that kind of work I wouldn’t touch it for less than $130 per hour and that’s if I liked them.

      I would professionally and politely state your fee. When they go to see if they can get it done cheaper they’ll realize quick what market rate would be.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would counter the offer if you’re willing to do it at market rates. I would assume ignorance on their side, not malice just for good measure since you’re on good terms. They’re probably way out of step and are thinking “oh we’re asking an old employee to do us a favor and are going to pay them.”

      First of all, are they expecting to put you on the payroll for this, so you’re not on the hook for the taxes? Is that the reason they think that $30 an hour is even close to reasonable?

      So I’d say “Actually, market rate for a database update would be $150 an hour, I would be willing to do it at $130 to give you a bit of a deal [if you’re willing to do this at that price of course and only if].” or you can say “Actually, market rate for a database update would be $150 an hour. If we can agree to that and get a contract in place stating my billing rate, I would happy to help.”

      Then they can take it or leave it.

      I get offered some ridiculous prices myself for consulting/temporary gigs and I know they’re not trying to be insulting, they’re just really out of touch with market rates for consulting/contracting verses how much you’d pay to bring on a FTE for a project.

    3. LlamaDataGeek*

      Update: I took a lot of “The Man, Becky Lynch”‘s wording, and said I’d be willing to do it for $120 an hour, giving you a OldComp discount.

      I thought a bit about that discount, but ended up being really drawn to a discount of the amount they first offered.

      Had a response back that they appreciate my willingness to help, but they’ve found another solution that works going forward.

      I talked with someone in that department to say that I was sorry I wasn’t going to be coming in, but I just couldn’t for that amount and keep my self-respect. They’re unsure what the actual solution is going to be – I suspect it will either be much more expensive or ends up with my former department not actually having their list.

      Thanks for the help, and I’m feeling rather like a dodged a bullet.

  99. Deb Morgan*

    I have a coworker who over-promises and under-delivers on things, like estimates of how much money a fundraising campaign will raise or how many volunteers we can provide for an event. This ends with the two of us (we’re a team of two right now and he’s been doing this for longer than I have) frantically scrambling at the last minute and calling in favors to meet our goals. And then despite the scramble, we still come up short. How can I explain to him kindly that maybe we should adjust our expectations for these kinds of things? I have been deferring to him on a bunch of stuff because I just started and he has been here for a year, but I think I’ve seen enough to know that his way is not working.

    1. Horseshoe*

      I wonder if you can just suggest it as a way for the “team” to try something different, rather than something that he did wrong? Like “I’ve been thinking that on the last campaign, we came up short on our goals and it made our lives very stressful and we didn’t look good when we came up short. Maybe we should figure out our expected outcome for the next campaign, but then give ourselves a cushion below what we think we can manage. Then we’ll look good when we exceed expectations!”

  100. Horseshoe*

    How to quit my job

    So, background here. I was working as a contractor for a time, which was getting stressful, so I decided to try working in an office again. I’m working at a start up, and they were happy to let me work 3 days a week, and then I could keep my favorite, least stressful clients by having two days of the work week that I am available for meetings with them. This was a great set up!

    I don’t love the culture of this office, and so I decided this corporate life isn’t the right path for me, and I decided to apply for a degree program at a local university. The problem is, I’m not sure yet if I’ll be accepted, but the grand boss has started asking when I’m going to be able to move up to full time with them. The company is expecting to get much busier starting next month.

    I think I need to sit down with the grand boss and say that I am not planning on staying here long term, and that I can stay to end of November while they find a replacement. The thing is, if I don’t get into the degree program, then I’d be happy to stay indefinitely at 3 days a week, but not interested in moving to 5 days. If I *do* get into the degree program, I want to stop working here before the end of this year. I’m not sure if I can keep delaying this conversation until I find out about whether I get into the program (I should know sometime in the next 4-6 weeks.)

    Any thoughts / suggestions?

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      Have the conversation now that you don’t want to go up to 5 days a week, full stop. Don’t bring up the degree program until you know.

      6 weeks from now is end of November/early December? That seems like okay timing to give 2-4 weeks’ notice, if you get into the program.

  101. Anon for this*

    I want to ask for a raise but I have NO IDEA how much to ask for.

    I’ve been at my job for 2 years. For the last year I have been busting ass on a highly visible project in order to retain one of our biggest clients — in this time they’ve made us compete against THREE different competitors and we have beaten out all three. I have performed like a total boss on this project and have been doing the same work as people 3 levels above me. Also, my boss is moving on from the company after over a decade and I am taking on several fairly senior level tasks from them. I’m not going to be supervising anyone but these tasks require people to trust my expertise enormously.

    I got a “salary adjustment” in the spring but it was a 2% bump. Inflation is 1.9% so this was less of a raise and more of a cost of living adjustment.

    I’m about to have my annual review and I’m anticipating it going VERY well. I want to ask for a promotion to senior and a raise assuming there are no nasty surprises in my review. But I have NO IDEA how much money to ask for. I make $84k right now in a very high COL area and my company knows we’re underpaid. I don’t even know what people get when they get a raise because I’ve never gotten one (wtf).

    1. Jamie*

      Do your research to find market rate for your position. If you have a niche position and can’t find enough similar in your local market to compare then use data from other markets with similar COLAs and economies.

      I did this once…the key is to go in with real numbers from job ads, not salary sites which can be vague and over/under inflated.

      1. Anon for this*

        Unfortunately I have a hyper-niche position in a very niche industry. There are maybe a halfdozen companies in the entire country doing the kind of work I do and the salary info for them is sketchy to nonexistent. I also have a job title that in no way reflects what I actually do here, which is frustrating. Basically my title is something like “technical writer” but my job is more like ultra-specialized UI design. I’ve literally never seen a job ad in my field that listed a salary (there’s probably a couple out there someplace but it’s EXTREMELY uncommon).

        1. sacados*

          Is there anyone else at your company with the senior title currently who you’re close enough with that you could ask them what they make/what they think the range for the position is?

        2. Anon Tech Writer*

          If you are a high-end tech writer in a high-CoL area, you should be getting a minimum of a base of $120K + various bonuses and stock.
          So go from there.

    3. Nesprin*

      How about 0.5-1% of the project value? If it was your work that kept a huge contract, you should benefit.

  102. Pennalynn Lott*

    The rats are abandoning the ship! The VP that was brought on a little over a year ago has driven off not 1, not 2, but FOUR Senior Managers. Plus two Senior Auditors. I have no guidance, no direction, no coaching but yet I am expected to produce “deliverables”. I just graduated in May. I’ve only done one full-time 10-week internship and on 3-month part-time internship. I am not plug-and-play.

    I’m looking for a new job, too, despite having only been here since the beginning of June. Unfortunately, the hiring market for people at my level (entry, staff) isn’t great right now. Most companies hire in the spring for new graduates (like I was this past May). So I’m probably stuck here until at least April or May of next year. :-(

    1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      For the majority of companies (US), October is the start of the new fiscal year. So they are in hiring mode right now. At least spend time perusing the job ads, career pages on company websites, etc. You never know what you’ll find.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        Oh, believe me, I am! I’m also working with two recruiters.

        Also, I have never worked at a company whose fiscal year started in October. They’ve either been calendar years, six-months off (July – June), or one-month off (Feb-Jan). Wikipedia says this: “The calendar year is used as the fiscal year by about 65% of publicly-traded companies in the United States.” And Yahoo Finance chimes in with: “The majority of public companies end their financial year on December 31, which is also the end of the calendar year.”

        But I did find data about state and federal government entities running an Oct-Sept fiscal year.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Which means that 45% do not. And people retire at their convenience not the company’s. Give it a try, because your employer seems unpromising.

    2. Horseshoe*

      I also started in an industry with strong hiring seasons for first years, but we were almost always open to receiving applications from new staff year round. Your recruiters probably know the market well, but I wouldn’t get discouraged just based on the hiring timeline. There are always companies that realized they should have hired 2 extra first years in June and would be happy to get another one now.

      Good luck!

  103. Libertine Agrarian*

    A friend of mine (who happens to work in the same field as I do, in another organization) is having a problem and looking for insight. It’s turning into quite the saga and is making a lot of waves in our small professional community.

    We both work in education in schools that resemble community colleges (we are not in the US). In one of his classes, my friend gives a certain assignment where he provides students with a selection of online art blogs, and they have to pick one and write a review. One of those blogs has recently published a short series of erotic ink drawings. My friend checked in with the school counselor to verify this would not be too much for the age group he’s working with (about half of them are minors) and she gave her OK. My friend then decided to include the blog in his selection for that class as usual, instead of scrambling to find another suitable one on short notice.

    The problem is that one of the school’s administrative assistants has seen heard of this and taken offense to it. He went to their boss to ask that the blog be removed from that assignment. My friend argued that this would be censorship, and that the admin has no background in education, sexology or anything relevant to back up his claim that the blog should be removed.

    There have a been a couple of meetings about this so far, or so I’ve heard. The union has gotten involved and is claiming that asking my friend to remove the blog would infringe upon his job. The admin is maintaining the blog is inappropriate and should be removed, arguing that as a father he would not want his minor son to be exposed to such images in school. Their boss seems to be siding with him a little, although she hasn’t asked that the blog be During a one-on-one with my friend, the boss has even stated that maybe a committee should be formed to select materials for classes or to write guidelines about it.

    I’m with my friend on this and think that everyone involved is out of their gourd. What do you guys think? Should my friend let this go?

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I think the admin assistant is in the wrong and wonder why he thinks class content is his business, but I also think that if your friend had to check to see if the blog’s content were acceptable, and half his students are minors, it was foreseeable that there could be objections. I’d expect them to come from parents, though, not some dude in the office. “Censorship” seems a little overstated; it’s not unreasonable for people to have concerns about *minors* and erotic artwork (depending, I guess, on just how erotic this was). Are there really so few art blogs that he had to use this one?

      1. Candy*

        || I also think that if your friend had to check to see if the blog’s content were acceptable, and half his students are minors, it was foreseeable that there could be objections. ||

        Yeah I saw where this was going as soon as Libertine Agrarian said the word “minors”

      2. Libertine Agrarian*

        Yeah I totally see what you mean – I personally was not that surprised that it caused a stir (although it could have gone completely unnoticed) and I believe invoking the Big Bad of censorship likely made my friend look confrontational (he had enough to hold his ground without going there, and it doesn’t align with the actual definition of censorship). Just swapping that blog for another one mid-semester would be a little hard though, because it’s a long assignment which is already partly done, and the blogs are selected through a partnership with a group of writers that lets students meet them for an interview. Just picking any random one off the web wouldn’t work unfortunately.

        I personally thought that while the artwork was definitely sexual in nature, it wasn’t shocking or graphic enough to warrant removal (but y’know, YMMV). Since that assignment only requires the students to look at one blog each from the selection, I think just warning the students of the images so that they can pick a different blog if they’d prefer would be plenty.

    2. Bananatiel*

      You’ve implied that he has taught this class before– I would use that to his advantage here (if that’s the case) to ensure that there isn’t unnecessary oversight added to his class going forward. Maybe he relents and removes the blog, but only under the condition that no committees are formed to select materials for the class, especially if it hasn’t been necessary for X years up to this point.

      On the topic of the blog– I wonder if there isn’t a third option here which is still using it… under certain conditions. If the students are picking posts and responding to specific posts– maybe he provides them with PDFs of several options from the blog which skirts the chance of them discovering the ONE offending post. That doesn’t work if they’re responding to the blog as a whole but just a thought!

      1. Libertine Agrarian*

        He has indeed taught that class before, and I don’t think that there were any incidents in the past. If it comes to that, I think accepting the removal on the condition that no oversight is added would be a good idea, especially since other classes would also likely be affected by such a measure (and I don’t know for you but if I learned that all my materials had to be reviewed because of that one colleague who refused to back down… I’d low-key be mad at them).

        I think it might be an overall review but I’ll pass on your suggestion to my friend about the PDFs. Thanks!

    3. Candy*

      || I’m with my friend on this and think that everyone involved is out of their gourd ||

      I don’t think it’s at all surprising that someone would take exception to an assignment that requires minors to view erotic art and I think if your friend doesn’t realize that then having a committee provide them guidelines on what material is suitable for minors is probably a good idea.

      1. Libertine Agrarian*

        I can see where you’re coming from, but the students are absolutely not required to view the erotic art – only one blog has been targeted for having such drawings, out of a selection (one of the blogs is famous for curating only artistic pictures of wild animals, for instance). There’s no reason a student who is a minor or otherwise doesn’t want to peruse such content couldn’t look at something else.

        I’ll also reiterate that our type of institution isn’t populated solely by minors – the age of legal majority here is 18, and the youngest of the students are 17. The class my friend gives in an elective, so there are students in it that are 17 (a third of the class approximately) and the rest of them are 18-19. That’s likely what makes it so weird in my eyes: over half the students in that class are legal adults, and so far, the students have expressed no discomfort whatsoever with the material.

        Lastly, there might be regional differences at play here, but sexuality actually shows up in materials taught in schools rather frequently in my experience, so it seems odd that this blog is being specifically targeted for it. For instance, there’s a specific novel in our language that’s broadly taught in the equivalent of middle school English classes. It contains a couple detailed sex scenes, and I read it myself for school when I was 15 – there’s a chance the son of the admin in our situation had to read it, too.

        The debate as to what’s appropriate for what demographic is actually a rather complex one, and I don’t think a selection committee (especially one that isn’t made of people with relevant professional experience, like that admin) would help much.

        1. pancakes*

          I don’t think the assignment is at all inappropriate, and I think it’s extraordinary hubris on the part of the admin to try to involve himself in coursework to this degree. I do wonder why the prof. is using blogs rather than online museums, though—most have much better image quality and accompanying information than blogs do. The selection can be overwhelming, but he could in the future have students choose categories to review items in — the Met Museum’s African collection, for example, or the V&A’s Italian Renaissance collection. (Those are huge categories for example purposes but they could be more narrow and tailored to the class).

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Does the school require permission slips / informing parents about that novel?

          In the US, when we have topics that may be controversial, the way they get around it is permission slips. We have those for *health* classes, and basic puberty instructions.

          1. Libertine Agrarian*

            That might be a way to get around it! For the novel thing, back in my day, it wasn’t required, but maybe it is now? Although, programs change so slowly…

            @pancakes I gave a little more detail in a reply above but the reasons he’s doing blogs instead of something more official, say, is that the assignment includes actually working with the writers and publishing something on said blogs. Which I think is really cool for the kids! I’ve seen some of the posts from the previous times the class ran and they’re show very interesting perspectives on art.

            1. pancakes*

              @Libertine Agrarian I see, that makes sense. I’m glad to hear this is worked out with the blog writers in advance because when I was blogging years ago I would occasionally be contacted by students who wanted to interview me, and their ideas about how that process works were mostly cringe-worthy. Last minute demands for assignments due the next day, no thanks in response, etc. It often seemed like they needed a lot more rudimentary practice speaking to people who aren’t friends or authority figures before attempting an assignment like that.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      I think if it was all adults, your friend would be right, but minors is a different thing. Even if you would be ok with it for your kid, if even one parent objects then you could be looking at a lawsuit, which is expensive.

      I would not want my minor child (assuming we’re talking under 18) to be exposed to erotic content without my knowledge and consent. If I take my kid to a movie with visible nudity, ok, my decision, but if a teacher took my kid without informing me, I would be pretty angry.

      Here’s the really bad part: this kind of boundary pushing is one thing that predators do to kids that they are grooming for potential molestation. Sexualized / erotic situations, no parental oversight – your friend is in some really sketchy territory. Anyone who teaches minors needs to understand how that works, and how to stay far away from it.

      The admin is right. This is not a hill for your friend or you to die on, and if your friend insists it is, he’s not a good fit for the job of teaching minors. Adults, sure, but not minors.

      1. pancakes*

        There are big differences between minors who are 17 and minors who are, say, 7, and the idea that any and all artistic representation of the human body might be grooming is wildly unfocused. It is that in some circumstances, yes, and in most others it’s a standard part of arts education and always has been. Being hyper-vigilant about all nudity is a very poor substitute for exercising judgment as to what (and who) is a threat and what and who isn’t.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Libertine specifically called these ‘erotic’, not ‘nudes’. If he’d just said, ‘nude life drawing classes’ or ‘parents were informed about potential erotic content’, then I wouldn’t have put in the bit about grooming. There’s a huge difference between Boticelli and Oliver Rath, and it’s a yellow flag to expose minors (even 17yos) to erotic art without explicit parental knowledge and consent. Either don’t show it or get parental permission.

          Anyone who teaches minors needs to be aware of how predators work and how to avoid looking like a predator. This is why schools have the open-door policy discussed in the comments earlier this week.

          Maybe the US is an outlier, but I see a ‘teacher arrested for sexual assault / statutory rape’ article at least once a month, and I know I don’t see them all. There’s two in my local news this past week, and neither has made national news. To go national, it seems it has to be either a lot of victims or a female teacher.

          1. pancakes*

            What exactly is the connection you’re seeing between sexual assault by teachers and art class assignments? To people with this mindset just about everyone seems to “look like a predator.”

      2. Libertine Agrarian*

        That is indeed an important perspective and I thank you for mentioning that. I do still feel that there still is a difference between including in a selection of content a blog that happens to currently have erotic art on the frontpage (after checking with the school counselor), and intentionally exposing minors to erotic content (which, yeah, sketchy, now that I think about it a little more).

        I mentioned it in an earlier reply but the class we’re talking about contains about a third of 17 year-olds, and the rest is 18-19 year olds (the age of legal majority here is 18 years old). This is due to the very specific nature of the institution we work in. I’m having a hard time, having seen the pictures, thinking that the parent of a 17-year old would actually object to something like that, except if they objected to all nudity – and if they did, boy would they have words with the art history teacher.

        1. Quandong*

          I’m also not in the US, but I work with children and teenagers. This would be considered inappropriate in the education system here, under the umbrella of child protection. Art teachers need to be extremely aware of child protection when collecting resources for assignments. (Of course, students have access to lots of nudity and erotic art and content in their life outside of school. But that’s different from having the material included as part of a school course.)

          It’s very possible that your use of the word erotic to describe the drawings is misleading. There have been many debates about nudity, art, and eroticism attempting to clearly delineate between them.

          But I immediately think that anything labelled ‘erotic’ is not going to be approved by administrators who have to oversee whether staff are abiding by the laws around child protection in your country (despite what the school counsellor said, unless they are the person who is responsible for this aspect of the school.)

    5. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      In the US, there is a huge distinction between what is considered reasonable at a community college and what is considered reasonable at a high school in situations like these. Even though underage students attend college courses, it’s assumed that such courses are “for” adults and the subject matter is targeted to be appropriate for adults. Parents who don’t want to have their children exposed to such things are welcome to not send them to college as children (or choose the kind of religious college that will be censoring such things anyway). Similarly, even though high school students may be over 18, high schools still are expected to avoid things considered inappropriate for children when teaching them. (I would assume this is one reason that high schools rarely off on-site dual enrollment classes in areas that might involve “adult” content, since that sounds like a headache that no one needs.)

      For example, I graduated from high school early and was only 17 my first year in college. I lived in the dorms just like the other college students and my parents had no particular awareness of what was or wasn’t being taught in my college classes (beyond anything I decided to bring up with them when home on breaks) or what I was or wasn’t doing when not in class. Except for a few narrow situations (around governmentally age-restricted things like voting), I was basically treated like an adult a year early because I had graduated high school. It would have been deeply weird if they’d complained to one of my professors about course content not being appropriate for minors, and I don’t think the school would have done anything about such a complaint.

      Is your school intentionally set up to have both minors and adults, or it more a case of some minors being ready for an adult kind of school early?

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        1/3 of the students are 17, the rest are 18 – 19, so it’s (to me) more like US senior year of high school. Community college is changing rapidly in the US, with a lot more interaction with high school students, so the bright line between ‘high school’ and ‘college’ is blurring. My county’s got community college ‘classrooms’ on high school property. It’s… interesting… especially once you get into questions about equity and access and race. I live in the US South, and my county is a liberal bubble that turns a red state purple, but we still struggle a lot with race / class.

      2. Libertine Agrarian*

        I would say it’s kind of both – the type of institution I work at only exists in this part of the world. It’s a mix of a trade school and a community college, with the goal of either having students learn a marketable skill and enter the job market or prepare for university.

        In that sense, even though about a third of our overall student base is 17, there is an understanding that our students are supposed to be treated like adults because they’re on the very last stretch of preparation before the “real world”. That’s probably why my initial reaction to the blog being challenged was surprise and disbelief – I’m not a teacher myself (from my pseudonym you might divine my line of work; hint: it’s not really agriculture) but I was trained to expect and require our students to act like grown-ups.

    6. LilySparrow*

      1) How old is the admin’s son?

      2) Is the admin’s son actually enrolled in the school, especially in the class?

      3) Is it normal for teachers or administrators to communicate with parents of students at all, about coursework or grades? Is the school acting “in loco parentis” in any way? Do you need parental permission to hold class or do activities off campus, allow students to take medication at school, or sign safety waivers for potentially risky activities like advanced labwork?

      If parents are normally involved in managing or approving decisions involving the students’ classwork or that could have a safety component, then they should certainly have a say in this.

      If the students are enrolled as independent adults managing their own education, then they shouldn’t.

      And if the admin’s son is not in the class, then he should have flagged the potential issue for his boss and then dropped it.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Yeah, I think #3 is the question that would make it clearer for me, since this is not US-based. If this school still does parental permission or even notification for field trips, then erotic art needs parental review. If not, then you’ve got more room for saying ‘nope, teacher’s choice.’

      2. Libertine Agrarian*

        I don’t think the admin’s son is in our demographic. From what I gathered, he’s still in high school, and that’s a completely different ballgame. If this had happened in a high school, I don’t think my friend would have ever considered keeping that blog.

        It’s really not typical for the school to communicate with parents at all. The understanding is that our students are adults (or almost adults) and therefore should be able make their own decisions, especially since our role is to prepare them for the work world or for university. I know however that occasionally, forms are signed for legal reasons (like to agree to have a picture posted on a website, since the law requires it) but that’s about it. I myself have attended one such institution before going to university, and I was 17 for my 2 first semesters – I can’t remember having a single form signed.

  104. Candy*

    I’m unionized staff at a university. I am interviewing for a higher grade position within the uni that is a part of a different union than the one I’m in currently. My current vacation allotment is 175 hours/year (the maximum as I’ve been here a long time). The maximum vacation allotment with the new position’s union is 144 hours/year. Moving to this new position would mean I’d lose 5 days vacation a year (but I would be paid more).

    Providing I’m offered the job, when and how and with who would I negotiate my vacation time? With the union? With HR? With the division head? I’ve always worked for unions and never had to negotiate salary or benefits before so I’m not sure if it’s even possible in a unionized workplace or who I would speak to about it.

    1. Joyful Noisey*

      I have a job that has deals with compliance for paperwork.
      A while ago I realized that my job is to get to Yes – how can the workers do what they need to do successfully? Doing the job wrong is not successful. And how can I help them do it right, and do it fast?
      How can the workers successfully do an oil changeover? By using the containment vessels. If they are leave it on the ground, the worker has failed to perform their task completely – they’ve done a half sassed job and they are non-compliant. I don’t want the workers to fail! BUT look EC is helping to make success possible with easy pour/easy pump containers!
      Environmental compliance of the facility are not tasks that only you are being paid to be responsible for, where you then pass off your work to everyone else to make your job easier. Your job to make sure that your facility meets the compliance regulations – but it is the workers who are responsible for performing their tasks correctly, and correctly encompasses compliantly. If the workers are leaving oil in buckets, then they have not completed their work, and they have a performance problem. This should be communicated from their management, rather than an outside department. The compliance dept should be there to make sure that workers have the education, resources and oversight needed to ensure they are doing their jobs well.

      The requirement to do their job correctly/compliantly should be the foundation of their job – not a requirement of an external department. If it is the foundation of their job, then you are not a nagger, you are a benevolent extended team partner who only wants them to succeed.

    2. LQ*

      I’d be really surprised if you could negotiate a higher vacation allotment than what is allowed in the union contract. Generally, no one wants this because it basically breaks the contract. You do, but that’s going to be a pretty high lift, I’d be seriously surprised if you can do it. The way you could is if you are in a right to work state and you opt-out of the union and negotiate outside of the union entirely, this may, however, mean that you have a LOT of other items around it that the employer will also want to negotiate, but this will also depend on if the university, that manager, that HR area are willing to push back on the union for you on this. If you know anyone who has moved into the new union area you could talk with them. But honestly, this isn’t a fight I’d decide to have. If you are going to have it, be ready for this to be a serious battle.

  105. Introvert girl*

    So my boss decided he wants us to groom our lama’s 4x faster than a professional lama groomer with years of experience. We tried to tell him in so many different ways that’s it’s not feasible. If he needs it 4x faster he needs to hire more groomers. I just gave up and am working as normal. The lama’s get groomed well and are happy. Anyone had bosses who had no idea what your jobs looks like and how long it takes to perform it?

    1. secret chart*

      I have worked for this guy. This guy does not learn. This guy insists that you can innovate your way out of it. Even showing him the triangle and telling him “pick two” does not work.

      1. Mill Miker*

        As my old boss used to say, “That triangle doesn’t apply in agency work. Timeline, features, and resources are fixed at the start. You just need to provide estimates that get everything delivered on that timeline, and then *actually* commit to them. I know developer’s are binary minded and can only thing in black-and-white, but I need you to consider the business needs and take a more nuanced approach like a real adult. Set your developer ego aside for a minute and manage your time properly.”

        He would then proceed to forbid any form of “time management” that wasn’t just “do it faster.” No saying no to ad-hoc requests, no deviating from the assigned schedule, no going back to the client when something couldn’t possibly in a hundred years be done as requested, and no asking for guidance on which projects had priority.

        Uh… so to answer the original question, “yes”

        1. secret chart*

          I just went was forcefully yanked backwards in time, had whiplash, saw red, and my heart shrunk three sizes.

          I briefly worked for someone who supported me when the client said “we want to add X” and I said “okay that will delay the timeline by a month, are you sure”. Those were good days. I liked that place. It’s a shame they got eaten by a place that thinks adding requirements after you’ve already gone live is something you can just get done in an afternoon if they tell you over and over again that the CEO wants it. The CEO will forget about it by next Monday. The CEO has forgotten about all of the changes he requested by two days later…

          …anyway. Yes. Been there.

          1. Mill Miker*

            I’m sorry if it was my story and not the general topic that caused your temporal whiplash and cardiac shrinkage. This, too, was at a place that had it all figured out when I had first been hired, and then changed in time.

    2. juliebulie*

      Yep, I’ve worked for a couple of these.

      Usually not directly. It’s usually a grandboss or higher who thinks there’s no reason why we can’t “just” do this or that to multiply our productivity.

      The boss I have now used to be one of those people. Now that he’s had a closer look at what we deal with, he understands why we can only groom one llama in the time it takes to groom one llama.

    3. Mill Miker*

      I will say, from experience, that if you can’t get him to take a more realistic approach soon, you may want to work on getting out. I had a boss like this (different from the one in the comment above, believe it or not) for whom I pulled off some minor miracles of accelerated timelines. I did in six months what should have taken a team 9 months to do, and then still got a negative performance review because I missed the deadline by several months. I pointed out how unrealistic the expectations were on day 2 of the project.

      If the expectations are unrealistic, then “Meets expectations” on a performance review is a far-off pipe dream, no matter how hard you work. Raises and bonus are something you can maybe dream about dreaming out.

      1. Introvert girl*

        Actually I won’t have to get out as he just found a better job and will leave us soon :)
        I also found two not-used bus tickets and some money on the street, so this has been a good day so far.

    4. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      So are your paychecks gonna be 4x bigger as a result of all this?
      No?
      Thought not.

      1. Introvert girl*

        Well, my workload almost tripled in the last couple of months so yes, I will be asking for a raise :)
        Let’s see how they’ll respond.

    5. ArtK*

      Been there, done that. Got a couple of T-shirts.

      One of my favorites was a VP/GM (very high up in a huge organization) who dictated that two separate products should share the same software architecture. The architect for the other product and I had to fake up a plan to merge them until the VP went away.

  106. Jamie*

    My job is changing a bit, due to a management shuffle due to a retirement. We have no HR here, so when there are write ups or other discipline to be meted out managers deal with it themselves along with other management…which now means me.

    I can do it, I’ve done it, I knew it was a possibility when hired but…I hate it. I have zero problems with holding people accountable and getting things done when it’s within my wheelhouse, but I hate feeling like Mr. Belding when an employee is brought to me for this kind of thing.

    The policies we have are clear and minimal…why can’t people just follow the few rules and this stuff wouldn’t be necessary.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is why I can’t do full-time HR work. The disciplinary crap really does feel like handing out detention slips.

      Dress code violation! Detention slip for you!
      Don’t run with scissors! Detention slip for you!

      Get yourself a hall monitor sash while you’re at it.

      1. Jamie*

        I now want a hall monitor sash more than anything!

        (I was turned down to be a monitor in 6th grade because I wasn’t responsible enough. I didn’t mention that failure in my cover letter…maybe if I tell them now someone else can assign detention!)

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I was a crosswalk guard in elementary school. Like the little nerd I’ve always been.
          We never had hall monitors because we were so small. The VP just handled it

          1. Jamie*

            Evil crosswalk dictators rejected me, too. Apparently someone who broke the rules so consistently wasn’t a good choice to enforce them.

            And now I enforce regulatory compliance. I think I was meant to lead a very different life.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Ahahahahaa yeah, for all 4 years of high school I tried signing up for their “Recordkeeping” and “Business” classes. Each one was a no-go. I have no idea what was up with that. Part of me thinks that they were courses they had cancelled but never took off the elective lists, so they tried to stick me in “art”, which made me riot and demand I get put in a second math class or something that was absolutely not “art”.

              Then I grew up to do business and records/accounting management.

              We are simply not here for other people’s rules and wonky structure. Blazing trails where they told us we couldn’t possibly.

  107. Workingforthemoney*

    My staff doesn’t have enough to do. Partly because technology has changed their job so much that it doesn’t take so long to do the tasks that used to take much longer, and partly becasue the jobs have changed and are higher skilled jobs. I’m in a civil servant place so feel I’ve pushed for people to use new skills as much as I can. the thing is there is a lot of work to get done, but I don’t know how to either break it up so they can do it or what to do. Any suggestions?

    1. ContemporaryIssued*

      If there is a lot of work to be done, and people with nothing to do, you could pick a task that is non-urgent but important and train your team or maybe a portion of your team to do that task when their main tasks aren’t taking up their time. Like if you have done all of A, pick up B and if there is a lot of A to do, B can wait. I do this for my boss – she basically taught me all the “non-emergency” stuff her job entails so I can pick it up when she’s busy with the emergency stuff or a new project comes in.

      Now if everything that needs doing is very complicated, then maybe you need to train a few people to get very indepth on it so they know how to do it right and can substitute each other in case of sick leave or vacation.

  108. And Now A Mouse*

    How big a deal should I consider this compensation issue?

    I’ve been brought over in a buyout into a new company. New Company basically promoted me up 2 levels from where I was. Nice (ish?) but also terrifying. The issue is that, as part of the buyout, salaries were basically locked. Now I’m being paid a low end salary for my old 2 levels down position for director level work. Not awesome.

    I talked to my new manager (and gave an expected market rate for the range), and they’ve agreed to put me on an accelerated dev plan, so I can get large incremental raises each quarter if I meet the requirements of the dev plan – though no final number has been discussed with me (beyond “not sure we’ll be able to go as high as you asked for”). While I’m glad they didn’t flat out say no, I’m still being under-compensated, and will likely stay that way for several quarters, even assuming I meet the dev plan requirements because they’re ramping me up over time.

    To put it in perspective, I’m making a little more than half of what I should be right now, with no guarantee that I’ll ramp up to what I’m supposed to. The only plus is that I’m getting bangin’ experience and resume bullet points. Am I right to be pretty concerned about this? Does this mean this can’t be a long term position for me?

    1. Kiwiii*

      If you can handle the additional work at this salary for a little while, it sounds like it’s probably worth waiting out. They might ramp your salary up closer to where it should be like they’re saying they will and you’ll have director level experience/work. If in 6-18 months you’re still not where you should be and have done enough/have enough experience to show that your stint doing that is transferable — try and hop to somewhere that’ll pay you for it.

      If you /can’t/ afford the extra work/commitment at your salary, try and hop immediately. Your best bet will probably be to the rung between where you were and where you’re at now, which still puts you out on top.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I would start looking for a new job. Maybe it will turn out that they’ll somehow start paying you at the right level, but honestly I highly doubt it. You might as well see if there’s someone out there that will pay you what you’re worth (and I bet there will be).

      1. Imprudence*

        I’m with Narwahl. If you get another job (and you don’t need to be secretive about looking) they’ll have to pay director salary to whoever replaces you. So it may be that you can force their hand if they see you are serious.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re taking advantage of you. No way in hell does a salary freeze include promotions and if it does, they’re so precarious, they’ll be suffering for a long-very-long time to get the capital in place to give raises…then EVERYONE will be due for one and you’ll get maybe a few bucks but not anywhere near your value.

      I would take the job, only for the experience and then once you have 6-12 months in, I’d bounce the ef outta there. Take what you can get [the experience at a higher level] and then run with it to the places that will give you the market rate you deserve!

      When anyone promotes you and tries to feed you a line about how they’ll adjust your salary “later”, no. You get a salary adjustment immediately or you really probably won’t see it or at least not what you should.

    4. CatCat*

      They’re being flaky and using you. So you can use them right back. Totally agree with others that get what you need on your resume and then peace out for a job that pays you appropriately.

    5. Bex*

      Honestly, use the new responsibilities to lever into a director job at a different company ASAP. What your company is doing is pretty shitty. Either they have the cash and they just don’t value you enough to pay you what you’re worth OR they are cash-strapped and possibly in trouble. In either scenario, you’re likely better off in a new job.

  109. 867-5309*

    Does anyone have a sense for how long we should wait for a response to a question we submitted to Alison before posting it here?

    1. Kiwiii*

      I’ve had a couple responded to and she emailed me within a week or so to let me know she was interested in posting it. That said, they were pretty broad/required short answers and I would think that if something required a lot of nuance it might take some additional time to formulate a full answer/find the right time for it.

      So, I’d give it about three weeks?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I ask that you wait at least a few weeks.

      My response time really varies — sometimes it’s really fast (within a couple of days) and sometimes it can take quite a few months, since my backlog is large and I don’t answer in the order things are received. But I know it’s not reasonable to ask you to wait longer than a few weeks, especially when a response isn’t guaranteed. (Also, if you want, you can always email me and ask if I have yours in the “about to definitely answer” queue, and I can let you know.)

  110. Leela*

    I hate the interview question “are you more of a lone wolf, or a team player?”

    It’s never put into context, and I think that makes it very hard for interviewers to get the question they’re actually asking – are you going to be a good team member – answered. People often answer with something very lukewarm and middling in my experience, not because they’re trying to trick us but because it’s such a vague question where the interviewer clearly has a secret thing they’re angling for with it and it’s very awkward. If someone loves being part of a team but wants to do their actual task on their own, they might answer with being a lone wolf for that but the interviewers think they’re learning that the person isn’t a team player and good god, they aren’t.

    I’ve wrestled with a lot of hiring managers about this question when I worked in HR/Recruiting but they really seem to like it. Other people who interview, what might you suggest they ask instead that gets more to the core of what they’re actually asking and would actually provide a useful answer?

    1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      Good breakdown of how that question is viewed.

      What about something open-ended like, “tell me about your preferred working style.”
      Then see if they address the team vs. on their own approach. If not, then ask a question to clarify, “So I take it you prefer to be a team player?”

    2. Jamie*

      That’s a terrible question without context.

      It depends on the needs of the project. I work very well on my own and often prefer that, but also work well with others and enjoy that too. Most of my job is a combo of the two which I like.

      Context is critical.

      1. juliebulie*

        Yes, it’s useless. I suppose I would reply with the equally useless, “I’m a Team Wolf.” I don’t think it’s a binary thing for most people, and many people will hesitate to answer honestly if they think it’s a trick question.

        I think a better way to ask would be “are you flexible enough to work both alone and with a team, and do you have a preference? Tell me about a project you worked on alone. Tell me about a project you worked on as a team.”

        Or make the question more relevant to the actual job.

        I think it makes more sense to explain what the job is like, and then discuss specific examples with the candidate. Not trick them into saying “Lone Wolf, oh shucks, was that wrong???”

          1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

            Yes!
            Does anyone not answer that they are good with both-being on one’s own and working as a member of a team?

            1. juliebulie*

              I think most people would want to answer it that way – because it’s true for most people and also because they’ll worry that leaning too hard in the wrong direction will get them disqualified. That’s why it’s a really bad question for an interview.

          2. JamieS*

            Since wolves are naturally pack animals, a “wolf” without the lone qualifier would just signify a team player. Team platypus would be better.

    3. Anonymous Water Drinker*

      I would answer that with “I enjoy working as part of a team, but I can work alone as needed”.

    4. Amethystmoon*

      Not to mention, depending on the project, a person can sometimes be either one. I do data entry for a living, so it’s very much a solo thing, but there are times when you do have to work with others on stuff.

    5. Close Bracket*

      I like to use a baseball analogy. A baseball team is all one team, and they all have to work together. However, the the pitcher stays on the pitcher’s mound and pitches. They don’t run into the outfield and catch. The 3rd baseman stays near third base and doesn’t try to field balls behind home plate. So while I love to work with other people, I do my own work by myself, asking for support and giving support when I need it.

  111. Gidget*

    We’ve just been told that someone in our department has been let go. They will be allowed to work out the month.
    We weren’t sure whether they would come in at all in their remaining time, except to clean out their desk, which could have been done after hours or on the weekend when no one was here, but so far they have showed up twice since we’ve received the news and acted as if nothing has happened.
    Without going into too much detail, I think that letting them go was probably the right decision in the end given long-standing performance issues, but I feel compassion for how difficult this must be for them, and do feel that the process leading up to their termination probably should have been handled better (I highly doubt that they were given good coaching on how to improve or clear feedback on lingering issues).
    Any ideas on how I can express my best wishes to this person without indicating to them or to those happy to see this person go that I’m taking anyone’s side (yes, this is something one needs to worry about here)? When would be most appropriate given that I can’t be completely sure when their last day in the office will be, and my first option, the next time I saw them after I heard the news, has now disappeared?

    1. Gidget (There are two of us now!?)*

      Lol wait… but I’m Gidget. Or at least I have been for the past few months. Are you me?

    2. Gidget (There are two of us now!?)*

      Or maybe you are my supervisor and you know I read AAM and this is your way of telling me I have been let go… *paranoia kicks in*

      1. NotGidget*

        HA! No, but I’m afraid this is a part of the posting etiquette that I missed! I’m so sorry! I’m a long-time lurker, first-time poster, and didn’t check to see if this name was in use. I full relinquish all rights, with apologies. (But chuckle at the thought that this name is in high-demand!)

        1. Gidget*

          No, no. Definitely no need to apologize. I was just amused and pleasantly surprised. I was also mildly confused. I was like did I post something earlier? I don’t mean to take the name away from you! I want to share the Gidget… because it is so rarely appreciated. Maybe one of us should be Francie Lawrence :p

          Oh, and to not completely ignore your question. That’s a tricky situation to be in. If you know their personal email you could send them a private correspondence. Or maybe offer to have a coffee with them outside of business hours before they leave (or shortly after). Good luck.

          1. valentine*

            It’s possible they don’t know that everyone knows, so, say nothing unless they send a farewell email.

  112. Wilhelmina Constance*

    I don’t know how to help my husband.
    We both work at the same company, but different departments and buildings, so our paths rarely cross professionally, but it does mean that I know everyone in his team, and he knows everyone in mine.
    Right now, his team is raising my blood pressure as an extension of the crud they are putting my husband through. (Yes, I realise I’m rather selfishly making this about me, but my husband’s wellbeing is a hill I will die on). His manager works remotely, except for one day a week, when he prefers to go to our offices near his home, rather than the offices where his team are based. His managerial and on-task responsibilities have recently been expanded, but he wasn’t that hands-on a manager before hand. Now, it’s like he just can’t cope/doesn’t care about the nitty gritty of actually managing staff at all. My husband’s team consists of four people – two lower support staff, hubby, and a network support engineer. Both support staff are off (one’s sick, the other is on leave), so hubby is doing their work as well as his own. It’s a pain, but he can (usually) cope. The issue is the network support engineer who will *go out of his way* to avoid doing any actual work – it’s amazing; he has been observed to put more work into *avoiding* doing his job than actually doing his job. He openly said today, when asked by my hubby (who was checking the ticket system) “Nah, I’m not going to do any work today, it’s Friday”, and proceeded to play games on his mobile phone until lunchtime. This guy is also supposed to pitch in when the lower support staff are away. Not today.
    NSE has an attitude problem. He has openly sworn and gotten aggressive (not to the point of physicality, but very verbal) to my husband – which was witnessed and reported by another team, to the manager who… blamed my husband!?!!? Since then, any altercation, or complaint my husband has has been attributed to “Whiny Mr Constance”, rather than a genuine grievance. NSE can do no wrong in the eyes of this manager, because a) manager is never there to see it and b) there are never any complaints about his work to manager. There’s a reason behind b) as well – it’s because, if there is a problem with his work, it’s up to LSS and hubby to fix, not him. He never has to deal with the fallout of him doing a poor job. And he knows it. And he *revels* in it. He’s also paid a considerable amount more than hubby – actually more than his market-rate adjusted paygrade should allow.
    His attitude problem has been raised a second time to HR (not by hubby, by one of the witnesses to the big altercation – apparently he was rude to them as well), who have batted it back to manager who does nothing about it because he takes the path of least resistance.

    Hubby is well liked by the rest of the team, indeed the rest of the company. His manager and Grandboss have both said how much they appreciate the fact that he cares about his work. The trouble is – his caring is the result of not actually having any qualifications. He’s worked very hard to get the experience needed to do his job well, without actually having any “official” knowledge to back it up. Which kind of puts my “you need to find another job” argument into cold water. It took *my* networking to get him this job. Prior to that he was in a thoroughly toxic environment that was killing him by degrees, which he only got because he was desperate, and was underpaid for most of his time there.

    I’m at my wits end. I feel I can’t be fully supportive of him, knowing that he works for such a terrible manager, with such an expletive of a coworker, without getting cross myself. I’m frustrated that the company we both work for will let one of it’s most praised (not necessarily valued, but definitely praised) employees get stuck in such a sucky situation. Because, to make it harder, my own job is improving in leaps and bounds.

    1. Anonymous Water Drinker*

      Anyway your husband could switch departments? If he decided to not do any work like NSE, would he get called out for it? I had a coworker like NSE- would avoid doing as much as possible- and because I wanted things to run smoothly, would run myself ragged trying to do 2 jobs. I was doing her job and my job but I only got paid for my job, so I quit doing her job. Chaos ensued but she started having to do her job.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        *Maybe* through personal networking, but it sounds like his job is somewhat technical, so any place that requires a formal application is going to screen for formal qualifications. Smaller companies and open source companies (eg, Red Hat) may look past that.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Can he coordinate with his LSS team mates for them all to be out sick / on vacation one day when NSE will need to get stuff done?

      Otherwise, it sounds like NSE is mostly a problem because he doesn’t pick up workload, and your hubby / LSS can do the work. With that, NSE is the company’s problem, not yours or your husband’s. Encourage your husband to do what he can, and let the rest fail, and document document document to cover his a**: When, where, what was said, what was not done, any witnesses.

      And to take some certification classes / tests so that he’s got the ‘official’ to back up his work experience. On-line community colleges are awesome, and since he knows the subject matter, it should be easy for him.

    4. HamlindigoBlue*

      As someone who works in this field, what is the reason for lower level support to correct the work product of the network engineer? That alone is baffling. If it was me, I would forward the problematic work back to the network guy and cc the manager. Start a paper trail of some sort. Obviously, network engineer has never been held accountable. Is it because the manager doesn’t know the extent of his laziness? Does manager think network engineer will be hard to replace?

      Obviously, you can’t change any of this for your husband. If he’s willing to put up with this, then that’s his choice. Once he’s decided that this is not an environment he’s willing to work in, he’ll make a change. In the meantime, he should learn as much as he can and gather experience. Take some classes, set up a home lab, get a subscription to Pluralsight (which I’ve found to be the best money I’ve spent). Just encourage him to work on himself. I think that’s all you really can do, the rest is on him.

      1. Wilhelmina Constance*

        Thanks – on some level I knew that there’s nothing I can do *for* him, although I have found some online courses that he didn’t know existed, so that makes me feel useful.

        Incidentally, the network engineer doesn’t believe testing what he does – so when he yanks a cable, or whatever it is he actually does, and it goes wrong, the end user’s only action is to raise a support ticket – which puts it back in the hands of hubby (while the lower support staff are off at least), who then has to triage and/or attempt to fix it. He carries no authority over the network support guy, so he can’t *make* the guy do his job properly, or even participate in the fixing. And with their manager remote, there are absolutely no consequences.
        Yes, the manager is fully aware of the extent of his laziness, but he will avoid any confrontation, especially with someone with a proven aggressive history. There is a paper trail, but at this point it’s really the manager who is the issue, not the network engineer – when hubby started he was working under a different manager with a different network engineer who was, if anything, even lazier, but he was managed out by the former manager (who retired almost immediately after – there’s been a HUGE turnover of staff at our company recently, all-bar-that-network-guy voluntary)

        I appreciate all of your comments – hubby actually thinks his cowardly manager is looking for another job himself, somewhere closer to where he prefers to be (i.e. not the same office as his staff!), so we’ve got our fingers crossed they get a new manager who will bring this network engineer to account. And I’ve just forwarded the online courses to his home email… just in case!

        1. valentine*

          we’ve got our fingers crossed they get a new manager who will bring this network engineer to account. And I’ve just forwarded the online courses to his home email… just in case!
          Your eggs are in the wrong basket. It ‘s not enough for someone to hold the NSE accountable. This is the second time this has happened and, while it’s understandable that, for you, your husband is the hero of the story, either there is more nuance or your company is quite lopsided and terrible at hiring and managing NSEs, meaning it’s not a good place for your husband. You could do with detaching because, while you of course want to help him, you’re putting his problems on your to-do list, yet seeing your success as a negative for him, and feeling extra responsible (and guilty?) because it was your company first.

          What was his plan if your networking hadn’t borne fruit? If it was for you to come up with another plan, that’s a problem. Hubs has the power to change his course. Rather than taking action, though, he’s hoping things and people around him will change. In the short term, he should deprioritize the tickets/LSS jobs and try to transfer (without you networking). He should definitely job search and either pursue the education necessary or move to a field that doesn’t require it.

          What if you step back and let him sort this? What if he vents less, or to someone else?

  113. Ana*

    I recently interviewed for a great job, and I am fairly confident that an offer is going to follow. I also happen to have a great job right now (very healthy work culture, prestigious title, flex hours). But I applied for a new job because of the attractive salary (about 40% higher than my current salary). This bump in pay would help me achieve some of my goals, like furthering my education. That said, I REALLY love my job and would be open to staying if they were to make a comparable offer. I have two questions about that though:

    1) How much is too much of an increase to ask for? Is it unreasonable to ask them to consider matching, even though it’s a significant increase at 40 percent?

    2) How do I attempt this without losing the other offer timewise? Say my current employer needs a day or two to work through that, can I ask for that long to consider their offer?

    1. Goldfinch*

      I have once in 20 years of working full-time seen a retention counter-offer work. We literally called it “pulling an Erica” after the person who did it. Everyone else was either downsized soon after, or ended up leaving soon anyway.

      If you’re going to do it, asking for a match is the only sensible number, IMO. If they ask for proof and you’ve not asked to match, they’re going to want to know your reasoning for the number you chose, and it’s going to be difficult to quantify/justify. You have a solid concrete reason to give that particular number, and offering less is in their court. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot by accidentally giving them an idea of how much less you would take.

      Asking for two business days is not excessive, IMO, particularly if you follow up the soft offer with a request for detailed contract/benefits info.

      1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

        Yep- good advice.

        Also, given you decide to stay with your current company after they meet the 40% pay bump, what’s to stop them from excluding you from all future pay raises & COL increases for the next, say, 5 years?

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      1) You’ll have to know your company/industry to know how much you can ask for. If you’re horrifically underpaid then maybe you could ask for a massive raise, but honestly unless you are also super irreplaceable I can’t imagine your company giving you a 40% raise. Also if you bring it up as a “give me this or I’ll leave” (which is what showing another offer essentially is), even if you do get it you may have poisoned yourself in the future. You might possibly never get another raise/bonus again, you might be marked as the first to go in layoffs, or just get passed for opportunities due to resentment towards your “disloyalty”. If you want a raise ask for a raise because you deserve it, but outside of certain industries/office cultures, using an offer to get a raise typically doesn’t end well.

      2) If you do try and use an offer to get a counter-offer, do not tell the offering company that you need time to let your current company come up with a counter-offer. Just tell them you need a few days/etc to consider, which is a normal thing to ask for. Most companies don’t expect someone to say yes immediately, so it isn’t weird to ask for time, no matter what you’re actually using it for.

    3. Kiwiii*

      I think part of this is going to be figuring out how much more you’d stay for. If it needs to be 40% more, I don’t think it’s worth entertaining staying in the role you’re in now – because it’s both not likely, and shows that you view the jobs equally otherwise. You might as well just go to the new opportunity. But if you’d stay for, say, 10-20% more (which is super fair! I’d choose a healthy work culture and flex hours and some more money over maybe not having them and lots more money — and i’d chose a 5% raise and a halved commute over any of it), then it’s definitely worth asking/trying to stay.

    4. Lurker*

      I could have written this post – I have had a series of really positive interviews and am experiencing ambivalence because I genuinely enjoy everything about my current job, but would really like a 50K raise…..

    5. Sleepy*

      It can work. My sister was on the other side of it where she actually wanted to leave her company and ended up staying another year because she got a $30k raise 5 min after she said she wanted to resign.

    6. Clementine*

      You can read any manner of articles about how accepting a counteroffer usually goes badly, and poisons your relationship with the company that was gladly going to pay you more.
      I don’t think 40% is in a reasonable ballpark in any event.
      You will learn a lot, almost certainly, at the new job that you won’t at this same one. Go for the company that has made it clear it values you enough to pay more.

  114. Manon*

    Very low stakes question- is it appropriate to ask someone to write more clearly?

    Context: I’m a student manager at a campus job. Our staff regularly hand writes info on envelopes and one person’s handwriting is consistently illegible, meaning that someone has to rewrite her work or her envelopes are incorrectly filed (bc others can’t tell what letters are written) and can’t be found later. I feel like I should address it, but I can’t get over the feeling that it’s rude to tell someone their handwriting is too messy.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Nope. I do it all the time on compliance reports. If it’s not legible, it’s not usable.

      I’m matter of fact with whoever I need to address with it – it doesn’t need to be an ordeal, just a simple “Hey, I need these [reports/envelopes/whatever] to be legible, or it creates confusion and doesn’t work in the system. Going forward, please be sure to print neatly. Thanks!”

      I also usually ask for printed handwritten reports, as I find if someone concentrates on printing they’re writing neater, rather than the half cursive half scribble a lot of us do when writing quickly.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I also make it a joke in trainings where they need to print their name and then sign after that if I can’t read the printed name, their attendance didn’t count because I couldn’t verify they attended, and now they’re going to need to put up with my shenanigans for another hour.

    2. House Tyrell*

      I’m that person with the messy handwriting! Until my recent graduation, I was a student worker and I totally own that I have bad handwriting. I write mostly in cursive or a very loopy print and while I can tell what I wrote 98% of the time, my boss (and the one professor who still made us hand-write essays) usually could not. They just asked that we started emailing notes or if we were writing envelope addresses, they’d just ask me to mind my writing and try to be neater, or we’d print labels, which was usually better for everyone involved anyway. I’m sure your employee knows her handwriting is messy and probably won’t mind!

    3. LilySparrow*

      It is not rude to tell someone you supervise that their work is unuseable to the point that it is causing errors down the chain of workflow!

      Handwriting is not a fixed attribute. It is a learned skill that changes across different situations and across a person’s lifetime.

      If you know or suspect that the student has an actual disability that makes it impossible to write legibly, take them off the task or change the way it gets done.

      If they are just being sloppy or have poor skills, tell them that the envelopes must be legible, and this requirement is not negotiable because it affects the filing, etc. So they must slow down and be careful to write neatly or print.

      If they have an invisible disability, they can discuss accommodations at that point. But the most likely explanation is that they are rushing through the task because it is tedious, which is solved by them not rushing and being careful.

    5. Alexandra Lynch*

      I have a diagnosed case of dysgraphia. (Also dyscalculia.) I KNOW my handwriting is not readable by most unless I work very hard at making it so. I can make it so long enough to write down an address. I can’t do it long enough to write this post, or, more to the point, a paragraph for someone or a blue book type short essay answer thing in school.
      I’d rather know you’re having trouble with my handwriting, so that I can do something about it.

  115. Anonanon doo doo doo doo doo*

    Salutations from High School land!

    After I (white middle age female) was cheerfully interacting with a young teen (black male), “Kermit”, who is admittedly a sweet knucklehead in the hall, one of the new teachers (white 30ish male), “Sam”, said that Kermit was a problem in class because he was always goofing off. I said, yes, he can be immature, but was very sweet and once he made the maturity leap he was going to be fine. Sam replied, “Well I think of him as being older because he’s black”. WHAAAAAAT??!?! (Sound of needle going off the record)

    I told him that was a very racially charged thing to say, to which he agreed and used the excuse of it being a societal problem. (Yes, this is true, studies show that young black males are often thought of as little adults, which often robs them of childhood) I said that it was our job as educators to overcome these biases and not allow them to enter our classroom, to which we parted ways in the hall.

    WT actual F?!?!?!?!

    I have been teaching for 18 years and have never heard a teacher say that! I reported him to the principal ASAP.

        1. Allypopx*

          I love that reaction! That means you know he got it but also gives you clues he’ll handle it discreetly and correctly.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Good on you for saying something and reporting it. What a gross thing to say. And for them to brush it off as “society’s problem” is extra terrible.

    4. juliebulie*

      Aside from the idiotic and useless racial comment:

      If Sam is a professional educator, he should damn well know that it doesn’t matter whether he “thinks of” Kermit as being older. Kermit is the age that Kermit is. Sam’s racist opinion doesn’t change that.

    5. Libertine Agrarian*

      Oh gosh that’s messed up. Let black kids be kids! Good on you for saying something in the moment, and for reporting him.

    6. Kesnit*

      At a recent talk on race, the speaker discussed a study done where participants were shown headshots of black and white males, ages 1-20, and were asked to estimate their age. For black males, participants guessed the pictured boys were an average of 4 years older than they actually are. The average for white boys was lower. (I can’t remember what that average was.)

    8. Diahann Carroll*

      They don’t say it, but they sure do think it. Good on you for reporting his dumb ass though I doubt very much that anything will happen to him.

  116. The Anxious Admin*

    How do I handle twice-monthly daytime therapy appointments while job hunting?

    Currently, I see a therapist twice a month, usually around 3 pm, for significant anxiety that affects both my work and home life. My job sucks and has been adding to said already significant anxiety, so I’m also job hunting. I’m not worried about scheduling interviews around my appointments, because they’re only 2 hours a month, but, I am worried about accepting a new job and then telling them twice a month I have to leave early. I live in a very small town, so evening appointments aren’t an option, as no one offers them. Does anyone have advice on how to navigate that if I get to the offer stage of a job? Do I just refer to it as a “standing appointment”?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      Yes. A standing medical appointment. It could be any number of things — physical therapy, allergy shots, etc — and your employer shouldn’t need to do what.

      If you would categorically not except the job if they were giving you a hard time about the appointments, you could raise it when you get an offer, but I’ve always waited until I am starting up and then ask about fitting them in (and have never gotten any objections).

      1. pancakes*

        I think whether it’s worth mentioning in interviews depends on the nature of the job—for office work I would presume a standing medical appt. 2x per month would be easily accommodated just about anywhere, but in the sort of job where being present at certain times is super-important (say, emergency dispatch), you could ask about how coverage for appointments works. Something along the lines of, “I have a standing medical appointment twice a month that can’t be shifted to evenings, how would the process for arranging coverage during those couple hours work?”

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          Good point! There are a lot of types of jobs where there are coverage concerns on a regular basis. I like your phrasing for how to bring that up, but unless your interviews are getting into a lot of logistical questions, I would still ask about it during the offer stage not the interview stage.

          1. pancakes*

            That makes sense, yes. It is unusual to get into logistical questions like that before there’s an offer.

  117. Kc24*

    After some advice from people who use Upwork or similar to hire freelancers;

    How much detail do you expect in the proposal? Full cover letter or something a bit more summarised, considering there is also a detailed profile to go with the proposal? Often the job descriptions themselves aren’t as detailed as a traditional job posting so putting together an entire cover letter style proposal is a bit difficult as well + the jobs are often one offs/short contracts/minimal hours etc. Just trying to get a feel for the expectations here so I don’t end up wasting time/connects. Cheers!

  118. Salaries in job ads*

    I know there’s an AAM consensus that pay ranged should be in job ads, but just to add to the chorus– as someone looking but not desperately looking, I won’t even consider applying to jobs without a pay range posted. It’s not worth the time of modifying a cover letter and resume only to find out later that the pay is $15,000 less than what I’m making now.

    1. 1234*

      Even if you are desperately looking, you would still want to know the pay range before applying.

      But I wonder if posting a range will get candidates to say “Well, it said 50 – 55K and you’re only offering me 50K! Why not 55K?” And employers won’t want to have that “battle” with candidates?

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        True, but I’d say that’s far better than wasting everyone’s time with interviews and offers if the candidate was looking for a position that paid 65k.

    2. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I have answered ads that posted a salary, only to be told during the interview that there was a typo in the ad, and the actual salary was lower.

  119. Always questions, seldom answers*

    How long do you wait for a boss to get their thoughts and plans together before you get (further) frustrated and disillusioned?

    Work for a non-profit. Boss and hubby started it 30 years ago, and all info and plans are in boss’s head. Keep being told we’ll talk about my role, talk about plans, talk about my self-evaluation, but despite reminders on my part, those conversations aren’t happening. There’s also a negative dynamic between boss and the board (boss wants to do everything herself). Even though she keeps saying she’s going to utilize all the skills I have, and that she’s getting plans out on paper, it’s not happening. Have been here six months.

    How long would you give it before you walk away? I’ve been keeping my eyes open for other roles, but hard in a rural area to find one that’d fit my skillset.

    Thanks!

    1. Jamie*

      Unless you see signs she’s moving toward change controlling types tend to struggle with letting go.

      Good idea to keep looking for more defined roles. 6 months is certainly long enough to have made some progress with defining your role if she was going to.

      1. Always questions, seldom answers*

        Thanks. That was my thinking too. She is struggling with letting go – I get it, it’s her baby. But hard to support when there’s no roadmap or checklist to follow. And I’m not an admin kind of person. I miss doing more engagement and relationship building!

    2. Kiwiii*

      I can’t tell from what you’ve said so far, but is it an option at all to offer to do pieces of other things/do more towards what you’d expected to do and/or more interesting work that you know you’re capable and/or want to learn? Sometimes when decisions get delayed it’s because people don’t know where to start or aren’t sure what asking too much would look like — you might be in a position to offer/suggest the route you’d like to take.

      If that’s not an option or is something that’s already happened and nixed, I would give up on her further defining your role — if she’s asked that you remind her or brings it up on her own, that’s great! you can deal with that then! but until then, since it hasn’t happened yet, it’s safe to proceed as though it won’t happen and start looking elsewhere.

      1. Always questions, seldom answers*

        I have been trying to expand on what I’m doing, and work on the other half of my job description. I’ve even offered to help in other areas (marketing/comms person left in the summer and no one has been hired yet), but no dice. Lots of “Always will support ” and “We’ll talk about this on Tuesday” and no meeting, or “I need to do X, Y an Z, and then I’ll be able to talk to you about your role.” She has acknowledged that she’s not using my skills to the benefit of the organization, but she continues to ask me to be patient as she gets stuff out of her head.

        1. Kiwiii*

          Can you put the meeting in her calendar if that’s appropriate? Can you offer to take X, Y, or Z (or half of one of them) so that she has more time to think about your thing?

          And if it’s appropriate, can you voice to her that it’s not just that you want to be doing more/get this figured out, it’s that you’re feeling unfulfilled without it?

    3. voyager1*

      For me, I can tolerate a lot… but lying is the thing that will get me out of a job quick. Sounds like your boss is more of a control freak though. Sorry that probably doesn’t help you much.

  120. Anon For This*

    Friends, we have a workplace creeper. I’m going to say something to management about it.

    I seem to be being singled out. In a mostly female team, he seems to interact with other women more normally. Obviously, I can’t say for sure. It definitely wouldn’t shock me if I was not the only one dealing with this.

    He literally abandons his assigned job to go and stand super close to me while asking personal questions about my schedule, where I live, etc while ignoring obvious signs that I want to be left alone. He sneaks away from his work to “secretly” stand behind me and take pictures of me, then punches away on his phone like he’s posting the pictures somewhere. He and a one-day temp worker once came up behind me while I was standing at my desk and stood literally a half inch behind me – nearly touching me – blocking my exit during a break while having a conversation as if I wasn’t even there. Then he showed up when he wasn’t scheduled (during a time when we’re open to the public) with a professional grade camera and took pictures of me.

    We do performance art, prep for it, and help run the show. I perform outside of this job and accept that I’m a (low profile) public figure. Some of this, if it happened by itself, would go with that territory. But the fact that he’s slacking on his job in order to do this, and attempting to be covert about it, and the super-close standing . . . WTF. I’m not exactly shocked that this guy is scraping by on random freelance gigs so late in his career.

    I don’t exactly need advice on this one. The project ends soon anyway. But of course all responses are welcome. Just venting.

    2. Just Elle*

      Ugh, I have the heebie jeebies. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

      I know the job ends soon anyway, and it is of course your right to just wait it out. But I would consider escalating this to management. I’m sure when you’re gone, he’ll either escalate to showing up at your house… or find a new mark who is less equipped to handle it. You’d be doing future-creeped-on-woman a favor if you were willing to speak up about his behavior and get him fired.

    3. Another JD*

      If all you’ve given are “obvious signs that I want to be left alone” that’s not enough. He’s not interpreting your signs. Or maybe he is, but there’s plausible deniability. Tell him in clear terms to stop. If it continues, escalate to management.

      1. Just Elle*

        I think the time to escalate is now. Its not on you to make sure he’s been giving ample warning not to act in a way that no human would consider reasonable.

        But, I do agree with verbalizing. Saying things loudly enough for others around you to hear puts him on notice that you won’t stand for this. “Please give me some personal space” “Excuse me, I need to get past” “STOP” “can you not?” or even “Ew, gross, why would you do that?” or “I can tell that you just took a picture of me! Why did you do that!?” Just say out loud whatever is floating through your mind.

        1. Anon For This*

          I told him, “I need to get back to work now,” the first time he acted weird (after the “obvious signs,” which meant, more specifically, that he kept standing really close to me and asking personal questions while I avoided responding and backed away).

          1. Close Bracket*

            Moving from non-verbal cues to verbalizing the problem is a good move. From here, I would start escalating to asking for what you want, not just at that moment, but in general. “I need to get back to work now, so I need you to stop asking questions and give me my personal space.” (Say this after the first question) “Whoa, personal space! I’ve noticed you stand really close. Could you give me more space when you talk to me?” If he doesn’t back up, “Would you please back up a little, I need more personal space…. Thanks. That’s the distance I always want you to stand at.”

            Being clear won’t always get the behavior change you want (although it’s much more likely to than non-verbal cues are), but it will make it documentable that you have told him the attention is unwelcome. The caveat on harassing behaviors in the legal sense is that they are unwelcome behaviors. So, unfortunately, the burden is on the recipient to make clear (meaning with words) that the behaviors are unwelcome.

            Good luck with the complaint. I hope it goes somewhere.

        2. Anon For This*

          And yeah, he’s failing to do his job in order to do this. I mean customer service work at times when we’re busy and fast-paced production work that involves regular breaks and no down-time outside of that. It’s not like office work where people can walk over to another desk and talk to someone. It’s more like theatre. Imagine an usher abandoning their post during an intermission to go creep on another usher. It’s multiple kinds of bad behavior at once.

    4. Anonymous Me*

      Please report him and tell people what he is doing. I was sexually assaulted by a coworker who did these things- take pictures, stand super close, ask personal questions, ignore work to talk to me. I never did tell him where I lived, but he followed me home one Friday and slipped in behind me as I was carrying in grocery bags. This man followed me to the grocery store and waited while I shopped! I told a few friends about his behavior but I never reported him at work because I didn’t want to get him in “trouble” ( I thought maybe he’s just super socially awkward). Today me would report him and use the weapon I bought and trained with because of him on him if he got in my home.

      1. Just Elle*

        I’m really sorry to hear this.

        People like this guy do not deserve the benefit of the doubt. Not at your expense, not even if it’s the first time of theyre socially awkward.

    5. Always questions, seldom answers*

      Ditto the others – report him. It’s important that this not happen to someone else in your position. Especially if you have said something to him about his invading your space being unwelcome.

    6. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Oh, my. Makes me remember when I was on the receiving end, but sadly for me the creeper was my assigned mentor. I tried to stop that and it costed me my job. Yuck.

    7. Wishing You Well*

      This might not end with your project. If he is testing how passive you are and he wants to know where you live, I am very concerned for your safety. Photo taking can now be used for facial recognition and tracking of people. For example, how secure is your social media?
      I sure hope he turns out to be just benignly weird but you really need to escalate this.

  121. Just Elle*

    *frustrated groaning*
    When people above you in the chain of command cc the world with misinformation directly contradicting your correct information. So now *I* look like I’m spreading misinformation, when he’s the guy who just plain wasn’t there when we settled the debate.

    There are two organizations who are always fighting each other, one wants to do things X way and the other to do it
    Y way. I was asked to facilitate an event between the two organizations to come up with an agreement about how to handle it. One very vocal person came to the event 4 hours late and left an hour early. He wanted X. After he left, we decided to move forward with option Y and drafted standard work, including this decision, which we distributed to the team.

    Today, someone sent an email asking for clarification on the standard work and I said “at the event, we decided Y”. Mr vocal early-leaver replies “We discussed this topic for over 20 minutes at the end of the event and never came to a firm conclusion that I can remember. We need to get back together and finalize some standard work. Joe’s points below were exactly what I was trying to convey. It’s obvious the teams still aren’t fully aligned.”

    *frustrated groaning*

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      You write back to the same list and outline the part Early Leaver missed, explaining that unfortunately, Mr. OfficiousPants has to leave before consensus was reached.

  122. The Unexpected Dragon*

    Super important information needed for today. When you are bombarded with questions (like 4 new question emails in a single chain while you try to answer 1 earlier question), people identifying known issues you can’t solve, and other just super stressful, no-one is being a jerk things, how do you keep your cool so you don’t scream at people who totally don’t deserve it?

    1. Jamie*

      Take a deep breath and realize that unless they are demanding you address all questions immediately they are probably just tossing questions out as they come up and expect you will get to them when you can.

      1. The Unexpected Dragon*

        Unfortunately, today all questions are coming in on a very high profile project with a very immediate deadline, so they do all need to be answered right now.

    2. Just Elle*

      Prioritize and execute. Just take them one at a time.

      If you need to, set expectations “hey, I’m so sorry Jane, but I won’t have time to get to your email today. I will reply Monday.” or “Hey Joe, normally I’d love to help you out, but really this isn’t my department and I’m quite busy today, can you try Jane?” or “I will definitely note that as an issue, but it’ll require a cross functional team to identify a solution.”

      Then step back, take a breath, and make a plan for the long-form emails you’ll need a few days to resolve.

    3. Libertine Agrarian*

      This type of thing is very much a part of my job sometimes. What I do is put on headphones so that I can focus on answering without disruption, take a deeeeep breath, and remind myself that this is work, so I expect everyone to act professionally if I can’t get back to them immediately. Being swamped happens and people in a work environment need to understand that!

      Then I briefly look at the messages and start answering the most urgent one first – or if it all equally looks urgent, I do it chronologically. And I proofread less (I know I’m too big a perfectionist when it comes to spelling normally).

      If they don’t get my answer in time despite everything, well, means they had to email earlier and that’s not on me!

    4. The Unexpected Dragon*

      And the panic wave has been crested. Fixes involved the following: taking advantage of the fact that I’m teleworking today to go into my kitchen and just scream at the ceiling (harmless release), five minutes of stress cleaning, and, most productive, telling the worst offenders directly to not ask things today.

      I’ve long been open about the fact that 90% of the time, I welcome ‘why’ and process questions, but that there will be days/projects where what I need are good little order followers. I told me team that we are in that 10%, and I will answer why questions after the crunch. Much smoother after that.

  123. Moving On*

    Long time lurker, first time poster. Just wanted to say thank you to Alison and everyone because last week I got a job offer after a year of searching! Because of AAM’s guides to cover letters and interviews, I got more phone interviews than I can count and was a finalist for quite a few positions as well. I even turned some positions down after the interview since I went into it knowing I was interviewing them as well. I’m heading on to a job that will be a really great professional step with coworkers I’ll like to be around, but it’s not my dream job (because that doesn’t necessarily exist) and no one said they were “like family.” :D Thanks for making me feel sane during a crazy time and giving me permission to have power over my future!

    1. Jamie*

      Yay! Congrats! Knowing there is no dream job, but really great ones, goes a long way in setting realistic expectations.

  124. Grand Mouse*

    I’m about to go to a doctor’s appointment and I’m going to practically beg to be put on medication for adhd. At work, at home I feel like time just slips away from me and I’m not getting anything done. I have almost no impulse control, I goof around on my phone (and feel bad about it), I keep forgetting significant things. What’s even more worrying is that I don’t even notice I forgot.

    I do try to use calendars and checklists, but I often forget to even use those. I’ll put more and more reminders for myself and then just tune those out.

    One strategy I’ve found is that as soon as I think to do something, I do it. It’s the only thing that works, but if I can’t do it right then it often doesn’t get done.

    I’ve been at my job for almost 2 years now, and between the health issues (I have some chronic illnesses, as well as being prone to getting sick) and mental health stuff and worsening ADHD I don’t feel like I’m living up to my potential. I have a strong work ethic but a lot of days I feel like I just… can’t.

    There was a glorious 4-ish months were I was productive, motivated and cheerful. Minimal pain, strong focus, all that. I’d love to capture that again but I don’t know what the cause was. And of course, when I’m not doing well the issues compound themselves.

    Venting mostly but would appreciate hearing from people who have gone through this as well. Thanks!

    1. Allypopx*

      Do you have an ADHD diagnosis? Not doubting that you have ADHD, my experience is just more from the path of going through the full diagnosis and medication process as an adult.

      1. Grand Mouse*

        I got diagnosed as a kid, but it’s weirdly difficult to get treatment as an adult. It’s not like it disappears! But people think it does?

        1. Jamie*

          There used to be a theory that we out grew it…needless to say we know better!

          Most doctors know do know we carry it into adulthood. I was diagnosed back in college and when I went back over 2 decades later to go back on meds they just talked to me about my history and that was my diagnosis and they started my meds that day.

          I was terrified to go back to the doctor and put it off for many years…but it was fine. One funny thing happened in that first appointment…back in the day you had ADD or ADHD depending on whether or not the hyperactive component was there. I told the doctor I had ADD and he explained it’s all ADHD now – just with qualifiers. Inattentive, impulsive/hyperactive, and combined. He said I was combined, I corrected him saying I didn’t have hyperactivity and he laughed and pointed out that I hadn’t stopped jiggling my foot and fidgeting with my hands since I sat down.

          He said that back in the olden days (paraphrasing) girls/women were usually diagnosed ADD because our hyperactive component tends to be more subtle than for boys/men. Explained why I dread sitting still on an airplane or church (back when I had to go.)

        2. Allypopx*

          Unfortunately it’s probably going to be luck of the draw with what doctor you get. ADHD doesn’t have super firm diagnostic criteria and people have really old, ingrained biases against it. I was denied a formal diagnosis because I’m “too smart” to have ADHD but luckily my primary saw that was bullshit and got me on medication anyway. Just be upfront about your symptoms, the fact you know this is something you have, and be patient – it may take a couple tries, don’t get disheartened.

    2. Jamie*

      As someone whose been through the very process, @Allypopx is right, you need the diagnosis first.

      Begging for ADHD meds (or asking straight up as I assume begging was hyperbole) can make them more reluctant to give them to you. Be very open to exploring medical solutions to your issues without seeming like your goal is a script for meds.

      I know how hard it can be to manage without them, good luck!

      1. Grand Mouse*

        Thanks Jamie. i know doctors are really wary about giving meds. I just feel like I’m heading for a nervous breakdown real soon and I’m already crying from stress so I need help, fast. I’ve been in therapy for years so I’ve already been working on these things. I’ve been trying so so hard for so long.

        1. Jamie*

          I know, believe me. I waited years to go back on meds long after I needed them, I was anxious and crying all the time.

          When I lost my job last year, and with it my health insurance, that was it for my meds. Dealing with the crushing blow of losing my job, losing my meds which help so much with productivity and organization, and the major anxiety (which for me is alleviated by ADHD meds) it was brutal.

          I’m still not back on them, insurance isn’t good enough here and going back to a new doctor is so daunting I totally get it…even good days I know I’m not at my best no matter how hard I try. It’s so tough. Internet hugs if they’ll help.

          1. Grand Mouse*

            So it turns out the clinic does not do stimulant medications at all! I can’t get Wellbutrin becuase of medication interactions. Do people know other options?

          2. Jamie*

            Like anything else it’s so individual – stims work great for me but some others they don’t at all.

            And even then it takes a bit to get the right dosage and often combo.

        3. Auntie Social*

          What if you tell them that going back on the meds seems like going backwards and not forwards, but your mom/dad/roommate suggested you ask? Make it sound like you don’t want to, but you promised your parents you’d ask because “they saw the difference in me before when I was on it”.

          1. LilySparrow*

            There is absolutely no good reason to lie in order to get treated for a known condition. That is the definition of drug-seeking behavior, and a huge red flag for potential abuse – which is exactly why drs are wary of giving out stim meds too freely.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Talk to your doctor about sleep quality, as well. ADHD symptoms fluctuate because of health and overall stress (and sometimes randomly.) But when mine tip over from being a real but manageable issue, to totally off the rails, it’s always because something has gone wrong with my sleep.

      The first goal in treatment is to improve your ability to stick to a supportive health routine (food, rest, exercise.) Meds do help with that, because of the improved impulse control, time awareness, task initiation, goal-directed persistence, etc.That routine will have a big impact on your ability to do everything else.

  125. Bad Jobs Anon*

    How do you get over anger and resentment over past jobs? I’ve had a whole string of awful jobs, mostly due to bad managers, and among other things it contributed to me suffering from burnout earlier this year, and a bunch of stress related health problems like digestive issues, muscle pains, and chronic insomnia (was up til 3am last night, this is not unusual). It’s also really warped my sense of what’s normal at a job, I tend to self-flagellate over small mistakes and to be suspicious of fairly ordinary things by management.

    I’m now in a much better job with a boss who, while not perfect, is really supportive and competent.

    I keep getting on rants when the topic of jobs or careers comes up and I’m sure my friends find it tiresome but I don’t think just silencing myself will really solve the problem. I come off as bitter and paranoid and I would like to not just suppress those feelings but work through them productively.

    FWIW I have diagnosed PTSD from childhood stuff but I feel like bullying, harassing and gaslighting bosses and coworkers have had a similar impact over time. (Please, for the premise of this question, assume I am telling the truth about how bad they were, I don’t want to go into or justify any of it but when I tell people about my experiences they tend to agree it was bad.)

    I have a therapist and I’m sure she can help but I’m wondering if people have suggestions for how to frame the conversation. I used to exercise heavily to relieve stress and anger but the aforementioned pains make it much more difficult now (I still exercise but I have to be moderate about it).

    1. WellRed*

      As to how to frame the conversation, do you mean with the therapist or with friends?
      All I can think to suggest is maybe having a mantra (or a word or something?) in mind to repeat to yourself mentally. Like, someone brings up a job and in your head you repeat “I have a good job, I have a good job” or “I love corgis” or something.
      If you mean with the therapist, why not start with what you wrote here?

    2. Wishing You Well*

      You’ll probably always be angry over past hurts but there are ways to decrease the anger. Ranting to friends is probably non-therapeutic. You could ask your friends to hold you to a time limit for complaining.
      Your therapist can help you best. Start with her. It’s normal if the first couple times are awkward. It takes time to get trust established and some people end up changing therapists if they don’t “click”.
      Besides talk therapy, there’s Dialectic Behavior Therapy, Eye Movement Desensitization and meditation (or anything that makes you calmer for awhile). Mini-vacations from your high stress level will help. Exercise is good, but if you can’t do intense, how about doing moderate exercise longer? (I do hand-weights while waiting for my toast and move around while the news is on.)
      Learn all you can about your PTSD. Maybe it’s complex PTSD. Knowing more about your diagnosis and how you got there tends to help a lot. You want to avoid triggers and that might involve changing some activities.
      Get a thorough medical checkup to make sure all your physical issues are being addressed. Have good sleep habits. Eat well. Good self-maintenance really pays off. It’s worth the effort.
      I have a feeling you’re on the right track and you’ll make progress soon. Good thoughts!

    3. Sleepy*

      I’m glad you’re self-reflective about the potential impact on your friendships. Stuff like this has made me minimize my time with certain friends in the past.

  126. Questioning*

    I’m in my late twenties and contemplating my career trajectory. I don’t want to keep doing what I’m currently doing, which is pretty administrative, not well-paid, and, frankly, boring. I’m considering a career change, or even just a change in roles at the company. I keep hearing that there’s a lot of movement and career changes in the working world now, that people change jobs and careers frequently and that the average person now holds 12 different jobs before retirement, that our current jobs won’t exist in a few decades, etc.

    But, frankly, I don’t see that to be the case. I’ve only had a handful of professional jobs, but I’m surrounded by coworkers, supervisors, managers, etc. who have been at the company for 10 to 30 years. Some have been promoted and some have moved on to managing roles. But their jobs are still the same–same industry, same roles with different technology, etc. There isn’t much upward mobility–you get a “Senior” added to your title and get a bit of a raise. But essentially you do the same thing. Or you stay the same company, or industry.

    What I’m wondering basically is if it’s true that changing jobs and professions is the norm now. Because all I see are people who still do the same thing for 15, 25, 30 years, etc. Have I heard the wrong things and is this reality?

    1. Allypopx*

      It’ll depend on your field, but yes in my experience it’s pretty normal to change companies every 5-10 years, or even more frequently than that early on in your career.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I’m 32, and in the decade since I’ve graduated from college (dear lord, it’s been a decade already?!), I have worked for five different companies doing several different types of jobs in totally different industries. My peers have similar trajectories, and we’re also all surrounded by colleagues who have been with our current employers for decades.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      Anecdata: I am 40. I finished my education (graduate school) when I was 25, so my career has been about 15 years so far. There’s a clear “story arc” to my jobs, but they haven’t been a clear march up a ladder.

      I have had 5 post-graduate school jobs:

      Job 1: 4 years, including a title adjustment/promotion with no change in responsibilities (from “junior X” to just “X”)

      Interlude: Took a year-long, self-funded sabbatical to try to figure out what to do with my life.

      Job 2: 9 months. Temporary, part-time, contract work to pay the bills while I looked for something permanent. (I took my sabbatical in fall 2008. Whoops.)

      Job 3: 2.25 years. Big step up from Job 1. Left because we moved cross-country for my husband go to graduate school.

      Job 4: 2.25 years. Step down in hierarchy, but step up in size of organization/budget/my own salary etc. from Job 3. This job was a terrible fit for me; it literally made me sick. If I hadn’t found Job 5 when I did I would have had to leave without something lined up.

      Job 5: 4.75 years and counting. Big, big step back in hierarchy, including a seriously big pay cut — but it’s the work I want to be doing, and I’ve been able to take on new responsibilities in my time here. I’ve had several title adjustments and one meaningful promotion since I’ve been here. I still haven’t gotten back to my Job 4 salary (not even close; I’m still 10k off that salary from 5 years ago) and it hasn’t been all roses, but it was so, so worth it.

  127. Allypopx*

    Resume formatting question. At my last job I had six positions, three of which had supervisor/managers in the title and three of which were lower level but did have increasing levels of leadership and responsibility.

    The way I have them on my resume is just stacked under the company name is reverse chronological order, like I think is normal. But is there a better way that would take up less space? Is it worth the space to show increasing responsibilities under one company? Would it be better to separate it by managerial and nonmanagerial experience, and what would that look like?

    I’m almost CERTAINLY overthinking this but I would like thoughts!

    1. Just Elle*

      I think stacking under the one heading is the best way to do it. You don’t need to show a clear break between managerial and nonmanagerial, although I’d argue nonmanagerial is probably rather irrelevant to the kind of job you’re likely looking for now.
      Don’t feel the need to put bullet points under all of them. You could do:

      Assistant Director, Llama Grooming 2018-
      -Manage 12 llama groomers
      -Do llama forecasting
      Manager, Llama Grooming 2017-2018
      -Manage 4 llama groomers
      -Manage team budget
      Team Lead, Llama grooming 2016-2017
      Llama Groomer 2016-2016
      Assistant, Llama Grooming 2014-2016

      You could even bunch the last 3 up on one line and then put 2014-2017.

      1. Allypopx*

        That’s sort of what I have now, I have
        Company:
        Big manager
        Manager
        Supervisor
        Team Lead
        Assistant team lead
        Associate

        all with appropriate dates, and then a list of key accomplishment bullets underneath that are more like my biggest accomplishments with the company overall rather than per position, since there’s some overlap. It just feels dense.

        1. Just Elle*

          What about
          Big Manager, 2018-
          Assignments ranging from Associate to Manager, 2010-2018
          Then bullet list

          But I do think its import to have bullet lists specifically for your most recent job. People want to understand in more detail what you’re doing *now* in addition to your greatest hits. So I might put a bullet list under Big Manager too.

          1. Allypopx*

            I’m at a different organization now that is much easier to make resume friendly! But the highest level things I did at that job are definitely the most important.

            I like that suggestion I might play around with that.

  128. Emily Elizabeth*

    Does anyone have advice on a resume bullet point about being part of a start up? I’m currently part of the very small, initial staff of a new, alternative early childhood education program. I’m starting to spruce up my resume for summer jobs and I want to indicate the extra effort, decision-making, and responsibility that has come with building a classroom from the ground up, but I’m struggling with succinct phrasing. Any help would be much appreciated!

    1. Just Elle*

      There is definitely increased responsibility and breadth for a startup! I used bullet points like “Employee #4 of a startup” and “2nd in command of ___ department” (because my title didn’t necessarily align with the level of responsibility that necessarily comes from that). You could even just say “Built a classroom from the ground up with limited oversight”

    2. new kid*

      Aside from the specific accomplishments I had when I worked for the start up (“built x program from the ground up” etc) I also had a bullet that was something like, “embodied the start up mentality that no task was above or below me” to try to get at the inherent need for flexibility and the all hands environment of start up work. Don’t know that’s the exact phrasing you’d want to use, but something that gets at that skill set? Adaptability is hugely important in most types of roles these days so I think it’s helpful to call out (and then of course expand in your interviews).

      1. Emily Elizabeth*

        Thank you, there’s definitely SO much adaptability day to day, and you’re right that I could point that out.

  129. Fabulous*

    I applied for a new job this week that would be somewhat of a lateral move salary-wise, but I’d be changing fields from for-profit to non-profit, adding more varied day-to-day tasks, and adding some supervisory responsibilities. I think I have a good shot for an interview; the posting closes on Monday so I’ll know soon enough.

    When in the interview stage can I ask more about the benefits? The post did mention some comparable benefits, but they would need to match pretty closely to my current for me to fully consider leaving. The questions I have include:

    – What is the healthcare coverage like?
    – How much PTO is offered in addition to the paid holidays, and is sick time in the same bucket?
    – What is the flexibility for working from home?
    – Would I be able to work from any location? (They have three locations, one just around the corner from my house.)
    – What is your maternity leave policy? (I plan on having 1-2 more children in the next few years, which I obviously would not mention in the interview stage, but I’d like to compare the leave to my current one because I have a great leave policy now and it’d be a shame to lose it. This is the question I’m almost more concerned about the answer, but with it being the most controversial topic, I’m hesitant to ask.)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Some will say this is all offer-stage stuff to ask.

      But as HR/Hiring, I prefer this all to be asked during the interview stage. It doesn’t look bad at all because it’s part of the entire package that comes with a job. Some people think that focusing on PTO and that kind of structure is going to make you look like you’re more focused on not being there, as opposed to the job itself.

      But I don’t want you to waste your time to get to the offer stage and then find out our benefits are not up to your standards and requirements. [I don’t have people ask me because I just spill our package at the very start anyways and then ask if they have other questions regarding that information. But we also talk about salary first thing as well because if we’re too far apart, we don’t want to waste anyones time.]

      1. Fabulous*

        I was suspecting the offer stage would be more appropriate for these questions, but like you said, I’d prefer not to waste anyone’s time if the benefits aren’t up to snuff. I can deal with a lateral salary move if the benefits also stay the same or similar. I’d need to negotiate at least 10-20% higher on the salary otherwise.

        I don’t know if this new company has an HR department, but I’m guessing not. Would you still say bring them up early?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          HR department or no HR department, you should just bring it up to whomever is interviewing you. For us we have HR and the actual department manager involved, so that you can ask HR directly to HR. But if they don’t have one, then they should be able to answer basic questions about the benefits package.

          I would focus mostly on your insurance requirements because in this day and age, it’s a huge deal breaker in most cases and PTO can often be negotiated whereas, you’re not getting to negotiate a better insurance package since it’s usually one size fits most.

          I would do it in a sit down interview only, not something for a phone screen! Let them at least get to see you and feel your energy before asking that kind of stuff. It’s a lot more warming and easy to navigate when someone asks these questions in person. That’s my only real guidance.

          You’re right to wait for maternity leave until the offer stage but the others are basics that are offered to everyone across the board, so it’s not any icky murky waters that could lead to internalized biases.

    2. MissBliss*

      You can absolutely ask the work from home and location questions in the interview! They’re super important to *how* the work will be done. For healthcare, PTO, and maternity leave, what you might want to consider is waiting until after the first interview and then deciding.

      If you have a good first interview, and you come away feeling like the position and organization would be a good fit, follow up with your thank you email and reiterate your interest in the position. Then, if they go to follow up with a second interview, again state that you’re interested and ask if it would be possible to review the benefits information before scheduling the follow-up.

      Something like, “It’s great to hear from you, Simone! I am still interested in the position. From our initial interview, I think Cool Nonprofit and the role of Director of Awesome would be a great fit for me, and I look forward to talking with your team more. Before we schedule the next interview, would it be possible for me to review your benefits package?” I was thinking about adding “Since this would be a transition to the non-profit sector for me, I do have questions about healthcare options and holidays.” but I’m not sure that’s necessary.

    3. remizidae*

      These are not interview questions. These are “after you get the offer” questions. And ideally, ask HR for benefits info, not the manager/interviewer.

      1. Fabulous*

        I’d normally agree, however these would be make-or-break things for me to even continue interviewing. I prefer not to waste anyone’s time if the benefits are so out of line with what I have that I wouldn’t even consider accepting.

        1. WellRed*

          Our company makes the benefit info and the hr benefit person available pretty early in the process. Of course, our pay isn’t great so maybe it’s a way to entice people with our better benefits?

      2. Just Another Manic Millie*

        I have to disagree about their being “after you get the offer” questions, because I needed to know ASAP if the company offered health insurance. I would not have been happy to have several interviews at a company and then receive an offer, only to find out that they didn’t offer health insurance. What a waste of time!

        I couldn’t assume that all companies offered health insurance, because I found out (during my first interviews with them) that that was not the case. They would say that they didn’t offer health insurance because everyone at their company was married and got health insurance through their spouses’ companies’ health insurance.

        Of course, some companies thought the same way you do, remizidae. One interviewer said coldly, “IF we make you an offer, THEN we will tell you about our health insurance.” And I knew right away that I was out of the running for the job. Another interviewer snapped at me, “Our health insurance was discussed in our help wanted ad!” None of the ads that I had answered had discussed or even mentioned health insurance. So I asked him, “Which ad was yours? Did you mention your company’s fax number? Did you ask people to reply to a post office box c/o The New York Times?” The interviewer didn’t know. Not that it mattered – as I said, NONE of the ads that I had answered touched upon health insurance.

        One interviewer asked me if I was married or single. Even though Alison keeps saying that it’s legal for an interviewer to ask that, I didn’t care for it, so I asked “What does that have to do with the job?” “I just wanted to know, because I wanted to discuss the health insurance with you!” he shouted. He refused to say another word. So I concluded that, for some reason, my marital status really mattered to him, and he was just pretending that it did not. Meaning that he wanted to hire only single people (or maybe only married people) and he definitely did not want to hire anyone who refused to provide his/her marital status.

        If he had really wanted to let me know about the company’s health insurance and if he didn’t feel like talking about it, he could have had a print-out with Part One being “What to know about our health insurance if you’re single” and Part Two being “What to know about our health insurance if you’re married” and Part Three being “What to know about our health insurance if you want a family plan” and just hand the print-out to applicants.

    4. Nicki Name*

      Working from home or varying locations is definitely something you can ask about at the interview stage! In my industry, it’s often brought up unprompted by interviewers because it’s become standard to allow at least some remote work.

  130. Viva*

    I’m an assistant manager in a restaurant. We are not the most professional of environments (I have stories that I wouldn’t believe if I hadn’t witnessed them myself), but we… try.

    We have this one employee. He’s personable, hard working, volunteers for extra shifts, etc. But. The environment is SUCH a bad fit for him. There are a lot of issues but the one I’m currently concerned with is that he has a poor awareness of his body and when it’s busy he frequently (four times in the last week) runs (literally runs) full on directly into other people. I probably outweigh him by 200 pounds and he slammed into me so hard I fell and hurt my ankle (it was fine a few hours later, luckily). I’m concerned he’s going to seriously injure someone.

    Currently I’ve taken to sticking him in the back cash booth as that keeps him sort of contained and out of everyone else’s way but he’s terrible at drive thru. I know I need to have a talk with this kid. I’ve had all kinds of awkward and difficult conversations with employees, but for some reason I’m completely at a loss about how to approach him.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You should approach it as “This is a tweak I need you to do” kind of coaching. Tell him that these are safety hazards and he has to pay better attention and slow down because he literally hurt you with his behaviors before.

      You can try to sugar coat it a bit since he’s a nice person and hard worker with the “I am generally very pleased with your work, you’re reliable and we appreciate that you’re always willing to help us with covering shifts. HOWEVER safety-issues are a huge concern, given the enviornment we’re in, there are a lot of hazards [hot things, sharp things, cramped spaces, people moving at all times, etc] and we have to be careful while staying on task. I need you to focus on slowing down and watching where you’re going. I was okay when you knocked me over after awhile but this can be a huge safety hazard if someone hits their head, falls on a sharp corner or object or simply just falls in an awkward position that breaks a bone instead of sprains a muscle.”

      I’ve had to bring safety issues up to people before and most are doing it just out of the fact they’re not thinking ahead.

      It’s just like how you call out that you’re behind someone in a kitchen so that you don’t get something hot or sharp whipped around at you unknowlingly causing harm to both people involved. It’s about being aware and in the moment, he has to work on his self awareness and know where everyone is in the kitchen at any given time. It’s a critical part of kitchen safety.

    2. Fabulous*

      “While I appreciate your enthusiasm for the job, I have to ask that you stop running while you’re here. Running only puts yourself and others in danger in this environment. Imagine if someone is walking while holding a knife, that would end badly for both of you if you collided. Nothing is so urgent that you have to run.”

    3. Autumnheart*

      Is he trying out for a part in “Chicago”?

      “He ran into my knife. He ran into my knife ten times.”

      Tell him NO RUNNING EVER. There are people walking around with hot food, glass, cutlery and boiling liquids FFS.

  131. Environmental Compliance*

    How do you regain motivation & overcome the feeling of being the resident PITA?

    I do environmental compliance (surprise of no one). My job is to keep my facility in compliance with All The Regulations. A lot of that is saying no, you can’t do that, but here’s another way to do it that’s okay. I try to be as upbeat as I can and include why we can’t do XYZ. It’s not *me, personally, for my own sake* saying you can’t dump (whatever) down the sewer drain, it’s based off federal/state/city regulations.

    However, it really feels like some staff seem to think it’s just EC being the Enviro PITA between tones & wording choice. When it comes to compliance, there is no caveat for convenience. The EPA & FDA don’t give a rat’s left butt cheek if you have to walk 20 ft farther with your bucket of used motor oil to put it into a double walled containment vessel rather than just leave said bucket with no lid sitting on the ground. Put your damn bucket o’ oil into the containment I picked specifically so that it was easy to pour into, easy to pump out of, and with its own secondary containment. Yes, you do need to put a lid on the bucket o’ oil when you move it. And honestly, I’m not sure *I* give either butt cheek if you have to go 20 ft farther. We are not putting oil collection tanks every 20 feet for an oil changeover that occurs 2x a year. “EC’s making this difficult!”

    Or the level indicators aren’t working, a tank overflows, I find out the indicators aren’t working, and I put in a work order to fix/calibrate said indicators. “But…they were fine before!” …..before the overflow? These are functioning as a control method for spills, where you stop flow prior to an overflow. If they aren’t indicating proper levels, they can’t function as intended. They need to be fixed. “But that’s creating more work!”

    Followed shortly by “well who do you want to fix it?” Dude, I don’t know and don’t care. I am not responsible for your team’s scheduling. You figure it out, buddy. I am not hand picking someone to fix this when your title is literally partially Scheduler.

    I’ve had trouble finding any motivation to care for the past couple weeks at work. My patience level is about at the point where I walk out and go Fine, Ya’ll, do what you want and YOU can write all the noncompliance reports and compliance action plans and pay the damn fines and figure it out your own damn selves.

    Perhaps I just need a vacation.

    1. Joyful Noisey*

      I have a job that has deals with compliance for paperwork.
      A while ago I realized that my job is to get to Yes – how can the workers do what they need to do successfully? Doing the job wrong is not successful. And how can I help them do it right, and do it fast?
      How can the workers successfully do an oil changeover? By using the containment vessels. If they are leave it on the ground, the worker has failed to perform their task completely – they’ve done a half sassed job and they are non-compliant. I don’t want the workers to fail! BUT look EC is helping to make success possible with easy pour/easy pump containers!
      Environmental compliance of the facility are not tasks that only you are being paid to be responsible for, where you then pass off your work to everyone else to make your job easier. Your job to make sure that your facility meets the compliance regulations – but it is the workers who are responsible for performing their tasks correctly, and correctly encompasses compliantly. If the workers are leaving oil in buckets, then they have not completed their work, and they have a performance problem. This should be communicated from their management, rather than an outside department. The compliance dept should be there to make sure that workers have the education, resources and oversight needed to ensure they are doing their jobs well.

      The requirement to do their job correctly/compliantly should be the foundation of their job – not a requirement of an external department. If it is the foundation of their job, then you are not a nagger, you are a benevolent extended team partner who only wants them to succeed.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I wish their management would help me focus it like this. I like it a lot better this way, but their management just….doesn’t seem to want to. As in, we have had 5 (FIVE) of the same violation in the past 30 days. FIVE. With fines. Violations due to a lack of reasonable response.

        I have trained until I’m blue in the face. I have phrased all of it with that this is part of their job, and important to do right, same as operations. I don’t know what else to do and I’m tired of being the only one who cares that it’s done correctly.

        1. Joyful Noisy*

          If their managers are not requiring the workers to do their work compliantly, then the managers should be held responsible for the failures of their workers. It should be part of the managers compensation/year end review considerations, how well their departments do with compliance. This should be something brought up to the leadership team as it is a gap in the company’s planning.

          1. Angie Baby*

            You are training the wrong people (workers), if their supervisors/managers aren’t reviewing their performance to include compliance metrics.

          2. Just Elle*

            This. We get piece of the pie bonuses. You aren’t eligible for production bonuses unless you’ve also had 0 injuries or compliance events. Because safety > compliance > production.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              They like to say Safety and Compliance are Most Important! With Production Second! but management definitely doesn’t walk the walk. Really feels like lip service.

        2. Angie Baby*

          Sounds like you are trying to herd cats! But remember, if they keep violating the regulations despite your training & communications — you’ve done nothing wrong, they are not your marks of shame, they are signs that the management is not managing. Too bad you can’t just mention it in a managers meeting — “Hey Chris, your group has training and we’ve sent out reminders, yet they keep violating regulations in regards to oil. Do you have any suggestions on how to better reach them? Your teams mistakes have run up a tab of $XXx in fines”

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            Hmm. We do monthly reports. I could add in YTD fines by area. I send out updates on this to Upper Management every time we get a fine, but maybe putting it in the monthlies would reinforce?

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I have 100% done the math before and it’s a significant reduction. Like, we’re under $25000 and we used to add a couple zeroes. So there’s that at least. I just want to stop collecting violations like they’re Pokemon.

            1. Just Elle*

              I know this sounds really counterintuitive, but what if you worked on celebrating that “success”? If you put out there “through the hard work of everyone we have reduced fines by 100% year over year, come by for a slice of cake to celebrate”. Even though it’s still bad, they really have gotten better which really does take change and effort.
              And it’s a weird psychological trick that by saying “we are a people’s who care about compliance, rah rah!” People actually assume that identity and become people who really do care about compliance. Because it’s the cool thing to do and everyone else is doing it.

        4. CheeryO*

          Unfortunately, I think that’s very much the norm based on my experience with industrial wastewater treatment and pre-treatment facilities. Operators care, EHS people care, but your average employee isn’t getting paid enough to care. You need to get more buy-in from management.

      2. Just Elle*

        Yes, all of this. I recently switched from Quality to Operations, so I understand both sides.

        As my ops-turned-quality director once said: The best quality/compliance people are masters of the grey zone. They understand all the rules so well, that they know the best way to use them to help you get what you want.

        I’m absolutely, definitely, not saying to break rules or do unethical things. But if you make your job into a game of helping people figure out how to adhere to the rules in the most convenient way possible, everyone will be happier and with any luck people will view you as the person who helps get things done, not who stands in their way.

        EG, double walled containment vessel. I dunno, is there a way to have two buckets, one of which is next to the machine? Because people will be people. And the easier we can make compliance for them, the better they comply. I’m sure this is a terrible example, but I bet if you worked with the operators you could get real creative and find a happy middle ground.

        EG from my personal life: its really extra inconvenient to take parts out of production in the middle of an operation. But thats where the inspection is, and its The Rule that if you identify a nonconformance it MUST be removed from production. So, we moved the inspection to the end of the operation. If you don’t know about the nonconformance, you don’t have to remove it. Win-win.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Our facility is all outdoors which complicates things. So I could either put the entire facility into secondary containment as a NPDES requirement, or they can continue using their buckets, and next to the largest oil-containing reservoirs I’ll put the big containment points. I do try to make compliance as easy as possible for them, but they really, really like to make it difficult. A lot of it is that they want to do it The Way It’s Always Been Done. Okay, great, but guess what – it’s no longer 1965, and there’s regulations, and seriously let’s stop getting violations just because they don’t want to put a drum on the containment skid. That I purchased extra of. And put where they wanted them. They literally put the skids stacked into the shed and then put the drums next to the skid.

          1. Just Elle*

            I mean, I hear you, I really do. Some operators make a sport out of resisting change. But all you can do is be doggedly determined at removing excuses. Play the game right back. Do the 5 why’s for the reason they aren’t using the skids. Maybe it’s an ergo issue with lifting the buckets up? maybe they don’t like the color orange? Who knows! But whatever it is, you can remove that excuse. And the next one. With at least one vacation between each volley. Lol

    2. Allypopx*

      You are not the resident PITA, you are doing your job. Your coworkers are the PITAs.

      My response to “it’s creating more work!” and such whining would be “it’s going to be a lot more work and a lot more headaches for everyone if we get cited for noncompliance”, but, that’s a little beside the point. Your role is essential and you do something important. These people are being obnoxious, you didn’t write these policies and they shouldn’t take it out on you. I’m not sure about motivation, but maybe if you can remind yourself of some of those things it will help. Do you have coworkers or a supervisor you can vent to? I personally find someone else saying “you’re right, people suck” can be pretty helpful in calming myself down.

      And yes, your position probably requires regular vacations more than some to remain sane. If you’re due for one, please consider getting it scheduled.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        There was one gentleman who I told that it would be a hell of a lot more work for a noncompliance violation and he told me that it was *my* headache, since I write the reports & letters. *headdesk*

        1. Allypopx*

          BUT THEN YOU WILL STILL HAVE TO CHANGE THINGS and do it with more scrutiny over you so there isn’t a nice cozy adjustment period where you can forget without consequence jfc people are dumb.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            That particular operator is…..not my favorite. He is one of a handful that seems to actively enjoy putting in an incredible amount of effort to avoid doing work.

            By far though this job is WAY better than working with the public though. No offense to the public. But as health department, I was a magnet for strange.

        2. Just Elle*

          I got around this by forcing operators to sit with me while I wrote up nonconformances “so I could get their feedback.” Like, literally, sit with me all day while I type and occasionally turn to him for clarification or justification. Bonus points if you make THEM type since most of them hate it.

          Basically my new management technique for recalcitrant operators is to make it more painful to work against me than it is to work for me. But in a super bright, bubbly cheerful, persistent way.

    3. Overeducated*

      I’m sorry. I don’t have a great solution, but part of my job is compliance and this is a frequent cause of tension in my field of work. What I would REALLY like to see is a culture change where environmental review and compliance aren’t seen as things that get in the way, but things that are a core part of doing the work well and meeting the mission. It’s a long slow process though.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        +100 on the slow. It’s a bit head meet wall right now.

        Some of them are doing fantastically. I call it out every time and point it out to as much management as possible.

        And then there’s the peanut gallery who is seriously like herding cats on LSD.

  132. Kesnit*

    This is for a friend (“Ash”)…

    Ash works for an elected official. (It is a local position and there’s around 100 people with this title around the state.) We have a state law that says anyone who works in a full-time position in the office of this elected person is entitled to 2 weeks of vacation and 7 sick days annually. (Ash is full time.) Ash mentioned to me that no one in their office gets any vacation time until they have reached their 1 year anniversary. Once they reach their anniversary, they get their vacation and can carry over from year to year.

    I am not sure this is legal. First, isn’t there a Federal law regarding vacation? (We are in the US.) WRT the state law, Ash did some research and could not find anything saying there is a 1-year grace period before vacation is granted. However, there is nothing that says a grace period is allowed, and the statute says the jurisdiction “shall” give the statutory vacation.

    Ash has taken this to senior management (the office deputy), but nothing has been addressed.

    Does anyone have any ideas on how Ash (and her co-workers) can go about getting this addressed? (Even the ones who have been there a year – Ash hasn’t – would be entitled to 2 weeks more of vacation than they have.)

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      As far as I know, there are no federal laws regarding vacation. Companies and agencies are not required to even have PTO. I’ve heard about “no vacation until your year is up” policies and I hate them, but I’m pretty sure they’re legal. Many states don’t even required paid sick leave.

      1. Kesnit*

        Under normal circumstances, I can see (though not agree with) a 1-year waiting period. The issue here is that there is a state law saying Ash and her co-workers “shall” receive the leave.

      1. Kesnit*

        No. I’m trying to think of any time I’ve read of people in her position unionizing, but nothing comes to mind.

    4. CAA*

      If they’ve already tried going through the office hierarchy and reached the limit there, then the next step is to submit a wage claim to their state’s equivalent of the Department of Labor. Different states call this dept different things, but all of them have some way to submit a wage claim. They could try contacting an employment attorney, but she would probably tell them to try a wage claim first. If the dept of labor interprets the law in favor of the employer, then they could sue.

    5. Yearly Wall Calendar*

      It’s actually pretty common to have to wait a year for vacation (which I don’t agree with). If she works for an elected official I am assuming there is an HR dept?

      1. Kesnit*

        Based on what I know of their office, they do not have an internal HR department. If I had to guess, their HR is the HR of the city where we work. (The office works for the city.)

        From what Ash has told me, another city agency (which is also covered by the statute in question) has the same leave policy.

        I do not know how this issue is handled in other jurisdictions for offices that fall under the statute.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          When I was county, we had to wait a year for vacation, though sick started immediately (and personal), and we could ‘bank’ hours to use later. We also had a 90 day probation at 70% salary. From what I’ve heard in this area, the year-delay on PTO is pretty common. No one likes it, but no one seems to do a whole lot about it.

  133. Iron Chef Boyardee*

    Last week, Marvel Comics hosted an invitation-only celebration of Stan Lee’s life at the New Amsterdam Theater in New York. As part of the celebration, a special limited-edition Stan Lee memorial comic book was given to everyone who attended. A few recipients put their copies for sale on eBay, with prices going in the three digits – the top price I’ve seen for a completed sale is $750.

    Here’s where this gets relevant for Ask A Manager. According to the Bleeding Cool website, “Marvel Comics has made this a firing offense if any of their employees are caught selling copies of these on eBay.”

    My default reaction is to say “can they do this?”, but I’ve read AAM long enough to know that the answer is: yes, they can.

    The article doesn’t elaborate any further than what I’ve quoted, and Bleeding Cool hasn’t published any updates, so I don’t know if anyone lost their job because they sold their copy of the book. But if someone actually did get fired for it, I can only imagine how the search for his next job would be…

    Interviewer: “I see you last worked at Marvel Comics. That sounds like a fun place to work. Why did you leave?”

    Interviewee: “I got fired for selling a comic book they handed out at a company event.”

    2. sacados*

      That sort of thing is actually not uncommon. I think in general it’s just considered to be in poor taste/reflect badly on the company. Especially for something like this that is likely to have a resale/collector’s value much higher than the actual value of the item itself.
      I don’t know if other companies would immediately jump to firing for a first offense, but it would definitely have consequences.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I agree it’s kind of crappy to resell, although if the company thought that was a significant risk they shouldn’t have handed them out to all attendees for free – obviously there’s going to be some people in such a large crowd for whom it’s not very meaningful. They could have made them available by request for people who agreed not to re-sell, for example.

    3. blink14*

      It makes perfect sense to me. They don’t want their employees selling a limited-edition comic book, which would be them making money off of a free product their employer produced, but it also prevents creating a bad vibe of employees selling something at a very high price.

      This would be akin to a record label handing out free copies of a special edition remix of an album (or something along those lines), and their employees selling that album or leaking it online. A makeup company giving away free, limited edition gifts and their employees reselling the leftovers.

      It’s something being sold that originally had no sale value placed on it. Selling a free comic book for $750 is greed.

    4. Anon Librarian*

      It’s nearly impossible to enforce. People can just have someone else list the item for them. If questioned, they could say they lost it, it was stolen, or they gave it to someone and that person sold it without their knowledge. In light of that, it’s arguably unfair to penalize people who eBay it under an account that can be linked to them. But if it is about optics, maybe not.

      1. pancakes*

        It’s not impossible to enforce if the copies are numbered, which presumably they are, and “I lost it” is not invariably going to be credible depending on who it’s coming from and the circumstances of the sale.

  134. Interviewer*

    My doctor advised my to try the FODMAP sorry temporarily to see if it helps with some of my digestive issues. It’s very restrictive. Going to restaurants usually requires discussions with the waiter to order off menu or to modify menu items. I’m scheduled to do some lunch interviews in the next few weeks (as the interviewer) and I’m worried that this might be off putting to the interview candidate. Is there a good way to handle this or should I find a coworker to replace me?

    2. Parenthetically*

      My immediate thought is, since you’re picking the restaurants, call ahead and ask for the modifications THEN rather than when you arrive.

      1. sacados*

        Seconded. Even if you don’t actually place the order ahead of time, calling ahead to check on ingredients/modifications/substitutions will make the day of much less awkward. That way you won’t have to be asking a whole bunch of questions and can just say “Hi I’d like the special but with A instead of B and no X”

    3. Purt's Peas*

      Do you want to handle it? If you don’t want to deal with restaurants while doing the FODMAP diet, then yeah, trade off with a coworker. If you don’t mind it, then you don’t mind it–I’d quickly tell the candidate, “I’ve got to do a bit of menu negotiation with the waiter due to a medical thing–it shouldn’t take long!”

    4. Stevie Budd*

      Say you’re temporarily on a restrictive diet for medical reasons and explain you’re about to make a potentially weird-sounding order, and invite the candidate to order whatever they’d like. The power dynamics of interviews could make the candidate feel obligated to follow your lead (or have them wondering if they should, or just kind of throw them off their game), and the highly particular order might make you seem fussy without context.

      But it doesn’t have to be a huge deal, and hopefully you can find a restaurant with something on the menu that won’t require a ton of special requests to be compliant. You also might want to bring some extra snacks to eat before or after the interview.

    5. Joyful Noisey*

      Unless you are hiring a chef , it is doubtful that the interviewee will care what you eat. They will only care about ordering something in the same price area. They are not going to ask about your dietary restrictions, and probably won’t notice you have any unless you go out of your way to mention them.

      Don’t overthink it. Check out the menu beforehand and figure out some easy orders – identify and order safe/boring food (ie food that doesn’t need to be heavily customized). You can get fancy when you have dinner.

      Salads with low FODMAP veggies , nuts or seeds (walnuts, pine nuts, etc.), and add a protein: salmon, tuna, chicken
      Grilled or roasted fish, chicken, pork or beef with low FODMAP veggies (eg green beans, zucchini) and rice or quinoa.
      Omelette or frittata with a side of roasted potatoes or hash browns
      Make the request that all food be no onion and garlic-free; Avoid marinades, sauces, soups.

    6. Mr. Hydrox*

      I went on a restrictive diet, it wasn’t a big deal to eat at restaurants. Did I get to order the food I truly wanted to eat? Nope, but there was food. How big of a deal depends on how invested you are in getting the miso-soy-sesame-apricot glazed salmon on a bed of black rice when you aren’t allowed to have miso/soy/seeds/apricot/rices – at that point, just go ahead and get the grilled salmon with steamed bok choy.

    7. Libertine Agrarian*

      Oof yeah I feel ya. I’ve been eating low-FODMAP for a year to manage IBS symptoms and restaurants are a huge pain. Here’s my advice: go to a sushi restaurant. Poke bowl bars and salad bars are also great if you have that in your area, but I feel sushi is more mainstream now. Sushi is great when eating out on the low-FODMAP diet because it’s inherently wheat-free, doesn’t typically contain garlic or onions, and it’s really easy to select stuff that will work for you without having it become a whole thing. When I was doing the restrictive phase of the diet, I would order cucumber rolls with salmon and tuna nigiri, and I’d have the gluten-free soy sauce if available.

      That being said, stress exacerbates digestive issues! If you anticipate this being a source of anxiety for you, don’t feel bad swapping places with a coworker.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Sushi-only restaurants may not have a very wide variety of things for some interviewees to eat, though, so it could be an awkward place to go for an interview. As a non-fish-eating vegetarian who also needs to avoid soy, I’m honestly not sure what I could eat at a sushi place other than some plain rice, and I certainly wouldn’t have much luck getting things off of the conveyor belt at a fast-sushi place. A Japanese place that had a wider menu would probably work because I could at least probably get steamed veggies and rice, though, maybe even veggie tempura if I felt I could risk the inevitable soy content, but yet would be a place where it wouldn’t be weird for the interviewer to order sushi.

  135. Amethystmoon*

    Does anyone have any book recommendations on e-mail communication specifically for women, in a male-dominated workplace? I seem to keep gendered feedback regarding e-mail writing, and would like to stop getting it, but would also like to show that I am trying to make an effort.

    1. Allypopx*

      Can I ask what kind of feedback you’re getting? My instinct is this may be more problematic than you’re making it out to be and maybe complying isn’t the right approach.

      1. Amethystmoon*

        It was kind of along the lines of “you’re a woman, so try to be warmer in your e-mails,” sort of thing even though they didn’t spell out they “you’re a woman which is why we’re telling you this” part.

        1. Allypopx*

          Yeah don’t like that. Are you in a specific position where warmth and likability is important? Customer service? Healthcare? If not, I’d push back a little. Maybe something like “That’s odd feedback, from what I’ve observed my tone isn’t out of line with company standards. Can you give me some examples of what you think has been a problem?”

          Depending, you can even be as blatant as “This feels like gendered feedback. You may be aware that women tend to get very different feedback about things like tone and demeanor than men do, and it’s something companies are starting to realize is really unacceptable. It may not be intentional, but any chance that’s what’s going on here?”

          That is fairly feminine phrasing – I do have a job where I need a softer tone and have a feminine writing style. You could adapt it to your typical language.

          1. Amethystmoon*

            I do data entry for a living. 99.9% of the e-mails I send are internal. I guess technically likeability is important in all jobs, but I don’t have a customer-facing position. The problem I have too is I have a new boss this year, so I don’t really want to push back on feedback and I’m not 100% sure he likes me. But he’s also not the only boss I’ve received such feedback from at the same company. However, before I started working there, I rarely received that kind of feedback.

            1. voyager1*

              Are you writing responses that are complete sentences? Example:
              Your request that you sent is completed.

              Or

              Your request that you sent is ready for your review.

              vs

              Done.

              Without really knowing what emails you are sending it is really hard to tell. I just bring those examples because my manager is big on those and “politeness” via email. My manager is a woman so… gender isn’t at play.

              1. Amethystmoon*

                I always write my e-mails in complete sentences. I am quite strict, at least professionally, with using proper grammar and spelling (for myself).

    2. RS*

      I haven’t read it myself, but I’ve heard Feminist Fight Club by Jessica Bennett is a good resource. Maybe check out the Look Inside section on Amazon to see if it would work for your situation.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      I would ask for specific examples. If none are forthcoming, I would add, “Hi, Firstname,” to the beginning oh all messages, and come up with a few stock phrases, such as a “thank you so much,” “I really appreciate,” and that Southern innocent-flower-actually-woman-of-power favorite, “I wonder if you (can, would, etc)…”

      All of this is just if you’re not ready to push back on all this nonsense, which may or may not be your wisest battle at this time. I often think of a comment by John Milloy, the Dress for Success author, who mentioned to a guy who was trying to be aggressive to move up in his company, “All the real killers are charmers.” Certainly the CEO of my organization is a bit warm and soft in his phrasing.

    4. Close Bracket*

      Assertive Communication for Women. I forget the author, but she is a woman. She has some goddess-y stuff in there, which if you are not into, you can ignore without detracting from the rest of the chapters. It’s not specific to email, but there should be stuff you can take away.

      Asking for specific examples could help, but it can also backfire in that all your messages start getting increased scrutiny. You could ask for specific examples of phrasing that you can use or phrasing to avoid.

      Good luck.

  136. Granger Chase*

    I’m looking for advice on how to avoid going from one toxic work culture to another. While I am definitely overworked and have no support from management at my current job, the straw that really broke the camel’s back is the way my coworkers are so willing to throw me under the bus or lie to my face in order to get me to stop trying to proactively fix problems. To clarify, my boss knows that I am not the cause of these mistakes, so while me getting thrown under the bus does not affect my reputation or standing at the company, I still am tasked with cleaning up the mess and the coworker responsible never faces any consequences.

    Coworkers will lie to me and say it’s because they knew I would be upset if they told me the truth. I do not have any supervisory authority over any of these coworkers, so if my manager (who is also their manager) does nothing, it’s just a dropped issue. I am at the point where I can no longer fake my way through small talk about weekend plans with coworkers who seem to enjoy making my job more difficult.

    How do I avoid this moving forward? I have just started job hunting and want some tips on what to look for while interviewing, good questions to ask, words to flag internally on Glassdoor reviews, etc.

    1. Stevie Budd*

      Some possible questions to ask in the interview process:

      – How does the team function together? (With possible follow-ups about individual vs team accomplishments)
      – How do you like to give and receive feedback?
      – What’s your communication style?
      – How do you handle cross-training?
      – What happens when a goal isn’t reached or a deadline isn’t met?
      – How do you (the boss) handle disagreements or misunderstandings between coworkers? Do you prefer to stay out of it or mitigate the situation?

      I also advise you to meet as many potential coworkers as possible in the process. Very interested in reading other people’ answers.

    2. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      Ask your potential supervisor: “how do you support your reports?”

      If you get a laugh or a smart-aleck answer, walk away.
      A good supervisor will take this seriously and go into depth over all that they do for their reports. It shouldn’t be a surprise for them to answer this.

  137. Stevie Budd*

    I was abruptly laid off from a job about six weeks ago, and because I only worked there for a few months, I didn’t get much severance. Basically, I’m set through the end of November and then the bottom falls out for me.

    I’ve been looking for work with a few additional challenges: one, I really want to stay in my current city/market because I just moved here for my last job and am pretty gun shy about relocating. Two, I would prefer to work in the Teapot Painting industry, but it’s a difficult industry so I have to at least entertain jobs in Teapot Packaging.

    I think a Teapot Packaging company is about to make me an offer. This particular job is probably a good one (we’ll see about the salary), I like the people, and the teapot clients are generally not organizations I have a moral opposition to. But it’s not teapot painting. I’m afraid of accepting this decent packaging offer only to get bombarded by interest from painting companies right after.

    About how long can I reasonably keep this company on the line while I consider their offer?

    1. Colette*

      Not long, unfortunately- no more than a week. Does the packaging company have a painting group? You may be able to move in a year or two.

      1. Stevie Budd*

        No, the packaging company does only packaging. I could conceivably do some freelance painting on the side, or I could accept the packaging job and then leave when a painting job becomes available — which would be unprofessional and would sort of burn a bridge, but might be worth it. I have only ever been happy in painting jobs; my past packaging jobs have made me miserable. Basically, teapot painting is very mission-driven, it’s the thing I feel I was born to do. Packaging uses the same skills but strictly in the pursuit of making money for the owner, never really for any greater good. If I had the money to wait it out, I would — but I don’t.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I’d say 3 working days; definitely less than a week. Since you don’t even have the hint of an interview anywhere else yet, I don’t recommend you try to delay while hoping for another job.

      1. Stevie Budd*

        I’ve interviewed with one painting firm and had phone screens with two other packaging firms, and this weekend I’m doing a take-home painting skills assessment for a very prominent painting firm. So there have been some rumbles, but I certainly won’t be getting an offer in the next week. :(

    3. Stevie Budd*

      An update: I got an offer today from the teapot packaging firm. The money is a little less than I was hoping, so I’ll definitely be trying to negotiate up. I also have never actually seen the workspace I’d be in — only the conference room — so I honestly don’t feel like I know enough to accept the offer. I’m going to think about it over the weekend and then maybe ask some more questions — partly to stall but mainly because I genuinely don’t have enough info.

      1. WellRed*

        Unless you are about to be homeless I don’t think you should take the job. You clearly don’t want it. If needed, could you take a seasonal job (retail?) or package handling? To get you by?

        1. stevie budd*

          I was already struggling to make ends meet before I got laid off, and I spent all my savings moving to my current city for the job that laid me off (ugh), but I’m gonna look into some freelance and seasonal options like you suggest. If I can make it work, I owe it to myself to try.

  138. How Is This Still a Thing*

    With Boss’s Day being this week, and apparently still a thing at a lot of organizations, anyone have any good stories about what happened at their work this year? Mine rolled out a literal red carpet at the main entrance employees used, with a sign saying they appreciate our bosses. Could be worse, but still kind of awkward. I saw a lot of gifts being exchanged around the office too. I gave my boss a nice card, but only because he’s amazing and he doesn’t get told that often enough by management here.

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      One of my colleagues got a card for everyone to sign and solicited donations for a Visa gift card. I happily signed the card, but sorry, I’m not donating money to someone who makes at least 3 times my salary.

    2. Josie*

      My department has a breakfast treat day for all. The first time we did it, people brought in hot plates and cooked breakfast items to order. It was too much for the electrical system and the breakers were thrown off and we lost all power. No lights, computers, or phones! I’m not sure the bosses appreciated it! Now we bring everything in already cooked.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      We do a shared card from the entire office, no money. Everyone signs it and most people write a sentence or two. That seems reasonable, but we overall have a “gifts of appreciation, not of monetary value” culture for both between-level and at-level interactions. Some years some organized person might also bring donuts for the entire office, particularly if they’ve been looking for an excuse to have donuts again anyway, but that didn’t happen this year (I think our previous chief donut instigator has changed either her diet or her commuting route, because I haven’t seen anyone bring in donuts in months).

    4. Newbie*

      I have been at new company for just 3 months. A temp in our department decided to do a potluck for Boss’s day. Our boss was only in the office Thursday (traveling rest of time).
      She came in to the meeting room and saw all of us and all the food. She teared up.

    5. Aphrodite*

      I have never done anything–not even a verbal recognition–with any boss but my current one, but I adore my current one. So I wrote him a short letter that started:

      “Dear Ken,
      You. Are. Amazing.”

      It went on in a paragraph to tell him how much he has meant to me both personally and professionally and how much I have been influenced by him. I signed it and left it on his desk with a small white pumpkin (from TJ’s; 69 cents) because I knew he would like that. And he did. He told me that this meant far more than any card because it was obvious it came from the heart.

      I am SO lucky because our workplace, a college, is totally nuts.

  139. AnotherSarah*

    I’m hoping for advice that probably calls for half AAM and half Captain Awkward. My husband works part time (20 hours), and is on a two-year contract working at a library. He’s hoping there will be a perm job (or another contract) for him on the other end, but he’s not sure. He’s about 3/4 through his first year and by all accounts is killing it–but he’s overworked. He’s supposed to be working about half on data-entry type of stuff, which he’s behind on, because he’s been the sole person working on exhibits (the exhibits are where he’s killing it, not the data entry…although he’s getting back into that).

    He’s also half-time in grad school. He ends up working about 30-35 hours at the library, and has little time for schoolwork, let alone stuff we need to do around the house.

    Some of this is poor time management on his part, for sure. And it may be that he shouldn’t be planning on 40-hr weeks with two part-time jobs.

    But another part is that he desperately wants/needs to stay on after two years, and thus really wants to do great work. He gets little support, but doesn’t want to complain because of the precarious nature of his position. I think he needs to carefully log his hours and talk to his boss–perhaps showing that there’s a LOT to do would encourage her to push for him to be hired on after the contract. But he seems to think that working overtime (unpaid) will demonstrate his worth….I’m worried that it will make people think he can’t do the job in the hours they think it will take.

    Thoughts on this? Is he correct that by regularly working overtime he’s demonstrating something good?

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      No, you’re right here. If he wants a full-time role when he’s done with school, he needs to help them understand that the workload requires a full-time employee. (Of course, he shouldn’t work unpaid overtime in any case — but in this case, he’s undermining his own cause.)

      1. annony*

        Yep. He is setting them up to expect 40 hours of work in 20 hours. That isn’t the best way to get a full time job.

    2. Bananatiel*

      I can’t speak to the politics of working in a library, but I think my biggest concern would be that if he got a FT position that they would then expect him to work more than 40 hrs a week. As in, you’ve been killing it at doing a, b, and c for two years, now we’re going to hire you FT and you’ll do all that plus x, y, and z! And suddenly he’s having to work 50-60 hours a week just to stay on top of it. I speak from experience on that– in another industry– but still.

      That’s a YMMV thing though, too. I can see a scenario where his boss knows that’s he’s putting in overtime, believes in him and his work, and is advocating for him to get a permanent position where he’ll continue that work without extra added on when he’s hired. But he should not assume that’s the case. I’d definitely be tracking/logging hours and making sure he’s really talking to his boss about how this might translate to a FT position (what additional work they might expect if he makes the switch). I can’t tell if he’s spoken with his boss about his desire to be hired on after the contract but that needs to be an open and ongoing discussion regardless at this point.

      For the captain awkward bit– if any of this is having a very negative impact on you– don’t be afraid to talk about it! I’m far from a relationship expert so that’s all I’ll say but you shouldn’t suffer in silence for another whole year.

      1. AnotherSarah*

        Thank you! (It’s not a huuuuge thing in our relationship but I can see it building to have a pretty negative impact down the road.)

    3. Another JD*

      It is illegal for the employer not to pay him for all hours worked, so he’s putting the library in a bad spot.

      1. AnotherSarah*

        He’s exempt, though. Or rather, the contract is on a project basis. The library has determined it’s a part-time project and is paying him accordingly.

        1. valentine*

          The library has determined it’s a part-time project and is paying him accordingly.
          If the library is paying him $x for 20 hours/week and doesn’t have to pay him for any excess hours, he should scrupulously stick to 20.

          And it may be that he shouldn’t be planning on 40-hr weeks with two part-time jobs.
          If you mean he shouldn’t get another (on paper) 20-hour/week job, I agree, because he refuses to stick to 20 and doesn’t have time for the rest of his life at just 30 hours. He really needs to reflect and make (and stick to!) a good plan and prioritizing. I am thinking school is the expendable item on the list because if it’s not doable now, it certainly won’t be if he gets a full-time position.

          If he hasn’t already, he should be sure his manager knows he’s the only one doing exhibits and has deemed them the priority, so they don’t think he’s shirking the data entry. It doesn’t bode well that either no one’s noticed or they don’t care how many hours he’s working for free, so I’d be rethinking the particular library.

          1. valentine*

            He’d do well to look into whether he’s owed for all hours worked, especially if it’s $x/hour and they told him the budget, rather than $x/project.

    4. Nicki Name*

      So let’s review:

      * He’s a bad fit for half of his job
      * He’s deceiving the employer about the amount of time he’s working (even if he’s exempt, still bad)
      * Even that isn’t enough time to do the whole job
      * He can’t keep up with what is supposedly his main life activity which this job is supposed to support
      * He wants to make this situation permanent???

      You say, “I’m worried that it will make people think he can’t do the job in the hours they think it will take.” But it sounds like this is a job that just can’t be done in those hours, and it doesn’t do the library any good to be blind to that.

      Your instinct is correct that he should record what his real hours are. It might also help if he can explain how hours translate to specific tasks, like, “This contract seems to assume that putting together an exhibit takes X hours, but it actually takes Y hours.”

      And then… it might be time for a gentle check-in about whether he really feels that grad school is still a life goal he wants to pursue. Maybe he’s found his true calling with making exhibits, or maybe that degree is his path to what he really wants and exhibits is just providing a fun distraction during a rough patch.

      1. AnotherSarah*

        Hmm. Maybe I misrepresented–he’s not a bad fit, I’d say, but he’s learning on the job. I’d say he’s keeping up with life okay–I think “can’t keep up” is a bit harsh. But thank you–it’s true that he’s taken on quite a lot (the grad school is in library science–and he loves his work).

  140. meh*

    Looking for suggestions on increasing productivity/focus at work. I’m finding because a lot of my work is repetitive I keep putting it off because I am bored. My office is also away from everyone elses so I often have to leave my desk and don’t return for awhile, by the time I come back I find it hard to get back into a groove.

    1. Special Specialist*

      Suggestion 1: Schedule tasks on your calendar like you’d schedule a meeting. Set aside certain amounts of time at certain points in the day for specific tasks: 9-10am for X, 10:45-11am for Y, 1-3pm for Z. Stick to the schedule. If somebody tries to interrupt with something that isn’t important/an emergency, then let them know you’ll get back to them whenever your scheduled block of work time is done. Don’t schedule every minute of everyday though. Just schedule the tasks you have a hard time getting motivated to do.

      Suggestion 2: Always do certain tasks at the same time everyday. I check a drop-off drawer everyday at 10am and have certain deliverables done by noon the day before they run.

      Suggestion 3: If you have a big stack of stuff to get through, break it up into smaller stacks. When I have to audit a huge stack of documentation, I break it up into smaller stacks of 5 or 10. It helps keep me motivated to keep going, but also gives me a good stopping point if get tired of working on them.

      Suggestion 4: Email/IM/call people instead of physically leaving your desk if getting up and going away interrupts your groove too much.

      Suggestion 5: Lump all of your away-from-desk errands together at the beginning of the day, right before or right lunch, or right before you leave in the afternoon.

    2. Sleepy*

      I motivate myself to do repetitive work by finding something interesting I can experience simultaneously (mainly music or podcasts) and setting a work timer. I have to do 1 hour of work with zero distractions before I can check my phone, check my email, etc.

  141. Lubbers*

    Guys, I am mortified! I realized yesterday that I had a typo on my resume. In my phone number! Meaning no one could call me. Ugh. I feel so stupid. Luckily I am just starting my job search so I had only sent it to a couple of places, but still. So embarrassing!

    1. Sarah-tonin*

      good thing you noticed now! not six months into your job search. :)

      I have my email on my resume too, and note that email is my preferred method of communication. do you have your email on your resume or application too?

      1. Lubbers*

        Yes, thankfully! That’s how I found out, because a recruiter emailed me and said, hey, we tried to call you but couldn’t reach you on the number you provided, are you still interested? So then I checked the number… yep. Woops.

    3. Kesnit*

      I have the letter “l” in the e-mail address I used for job hunting. While interviewing one time, the interviewer told me that she had tried to e-mail me but it had bounced. Turned out she had used the number 1 instead of the letter “l.”

      (I now work for the same agency as that interviewer, though in a different office. When I see her at conferences, I always remember that incident.)

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      I once misspelled a company’s name on my application and cover letter.

      In my defense their name had a common word that normally has one l but they spelled it with ll and in a fancy font that made it hard to see if you weren’t looking for it. I was mortified after I realized my mistake and tried to resubmit corrected versions. Not sure if the initial error or my frantic resubmissions are why I never got a callback (or just my lack of experience right after the economy tanked lol), but I am always super careful now!

  142. Sarah-tonin*

    I’ll try to keep this short haha. (I’m the one who has posted about trying to get out of working friday nights.)

    so I also work at another library and we have a mandatory in-service that will probably take place on a friday in december. I am not potentially working a 12 hour day (I also don’t know what time this will end), so I want to give my boss a heads up that I’m going to need to take a friday night off.

    but I don’t know the date, so I need to ask my manager at that job if he’ll know the date by the time I have to give my manager at the friday nights library my december dates by the end of october. otherwise I doubt I’ll be able to go to the in-service, because friday nights are hard to find coverage for.

    not going to the in-service means I’d get in trouble – in the past, one of my coworkers got written up for not attending, not knowing it’s mandatory. I don’t know how much my manager knows about this, but I don’t want to get in trouble and I don’t want my manager to get in trouble.

    what should I do?

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      There’s no reason anyone here should get into trouble. You can go to your manager at the job that requires the in-service training and say this:

      “Boss, I need to know the date for the upcoming in-service so I can take the day off from my other job. I have to request time off by [whenever you need to request time off at the other job].”

      If they won’t know the date of the in-service by then, you can say: “I can’t get the time off if I don’t know the date by [the deadline you already gave], so I won’t be able to attend the in-service. How should we handle that?”

      2. Sarah-tonin*

        this is good, I like this! :)

        I was writing this in a hurry, so it wasn’t super clear. my boss unfortunatly isn’t the one who sets the in-service dates. that’s our director, my boss’s boss, and they’re the one who wrote up my coworker (same level as me) in the past.

        so that’s what I meant when I said I didn’t want him to get in trouble – I meant by his boss, but she’s the one who sets the in-service date, and if she doesn’t let us know in a couple week, I don’t know if I can go…….

        but regardless, I like this script and I’ll use it next time I’m in! :) thank you!

        1. valentine*

          If it’s the same library system, would it help to cc your Friday manager, in case they can work it out themselves?

          Either way, telling your Friday manager now allows them to sort coverage.

  143. FormerFirstTimer*

    Am I a terrible person for being ELATED that my horrible boss from even worse job just got fired?

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      NOPE

      I did a little dance when I heard that the manager and VP who fired me were walked out of the building. They were shady AF.

    3. RS*

      Nah. I was feeling some schadenfreude recently when I heard an old coworker was fired. He was the one who told my boss that I was applying for a master’s program, which led to my boss replacing me. The week after I found out I was being replaced, the master’s program notified me that I was not accepted. It was a crummy time, so I was pretty pleased when I heard that guy was fired.

    5. voluptuousfire*

      Not at all. I’d say take yourself out for a drink or dessert since sweet karma has kicked in. Something rich and decadent, hopefully!

    6. Just Another Manic Millie*

      No. But you should hope that your boss doesn’t wind up working at your present company.

    7. Windchime*

      Nope. If you’re terrible, then so am I for hearing that a couple of ex-bosses at my old workplace got canned. I felt nothing but happiness that they finally got what was coming to them.

  144. Overeducated*

    I had my performance review yesterday! I was nervous about it because even though I feel like I accomplished a lot this year and my mid-year review was solid, the person doing my annual review only actually supervised me for about a month and I was on a temporary assignment to another office for almost 4 months. She was basically like “I just wrote that I didn’t supervise you for long, attached the feedback from your temporary assignment supervisor, and gave you the highest rating in every category.” Woohoo! That will help with future job applications as well as making me eligible for a performance award – since I’m using up all of my sick leave and vacation to get paid during family leave this year, extra vacation time would be AWESOME.

    1. CAA*

      Congrats! It sounds like the feedback from the temp assignment bore out the high ratings, so good job. I hope you get the extra PTO you need.

  145. Grandma Mazur*

    Is it just me or is it weird to expect people to perform at their best if you’re interviewing them in a public space?

    I was in the cafeteria in our local Ikea, trying to breastfeed a wriggly 8-month-old, and felt bad for a guy who was being interviewed for a role in food service – I’m sure he didn’t need us directly in his line of sight, or to hear the baby making all manner of odd screeching sounds!

    1. FormerFirstTimer*

      Ugh, that poor guy! I’ve only ever had one interview in a public space and it… didn’t go well.

      1. valentine*

        If he finds breastfeeding off-putting, it’s fine if he doesn’t get the job. And it will always be adults who make the most terrible noise.

    2. CheeryO*

      I think that’s fairly normal for food service. There most likely isn’t a better place to do it. Don’t feel too bad – if you can’t focus and be reasonably polished in that atmosphere, you’ll probably struggle in the job itself.

  146. we're basically gods*

    I’m about a month and a half into my new job, and things are still generally good– I’m paid well, my boss is pretty reasonable, and I’m doing work I enjoy.
    But it’s also a tiny startup, so we’re all in one room with no option to go elsewhere, and we have a Loud Guy. Not in how he talks, but just everything he does. He comes in loudly, he unpacks his stuff loudly, he wears a WINDBREAKER CONSTANTLY. And he’s currently sick, which I have sympathy for, but I am so on edge listening to him sniffle and clear his throat constantly. We have a generous WFH policy, he doesn’t need to be here when sick!
    This is a 9-month contract, and we might be hiring some more people and getting some more space in a near future, so maybe I’ll be able to escape, but for now, I am not pleased. Been putting in earbuds as much as possible, but sometimes people need to talk with me, so I can’t completely drown it out.
    (This is not something I am going to say anything about, because I’ve read enough AAM to know that that’s not an appropriate thing to do, but I am going to complain about it. Otherwise, I will snap.)

    1. Qwerty*

      Not sure if you are interested in going this route, but I used to keep cold supplies stocked at my desk for coworkers to use (cough drops, honey, tea bags, etc) partly to make the work environment more bearable.

      I’ve also been known to (playfully) toss cough drops at coworkers in a not-so-subtle attempt to get them to address the noisy part of their symptoms. Some people are stubborn about toughing it out with a cold.

      1. we're basically gods*

        I’m the only woman in an office with all men (software!), so as much as I would normally be content to help out, I feel like professionally, I really don’t want to wind up going into the caretaker role, unfortunately. Hopefully he gets better soon…

  147. ByeFelicia*

    Question about resigning with a crap boss:

    My boss took the news of me leaving and exploring other opportunities very personally, and basically, her tactic was to corner me, tell me she knows I’m looking elsewhere, and force me into giving her my notice and end date. She seemed appalled that I had originally planned on giving two weeks’ notice and now, she is getting a full month’s notice. Which is fine, except she made it sound like she wouldn’t have given me a positive reference if I had ‘sprung’ my leaving the company with just 2 weeks notice. This, despite her saying I’ve been a great employee…? Overall, she’s been very vindictive about it and now, I run the risk of being kicked out before I’m ready to go. My boss has never made it clear to anybody in our office that she expects more than 2 weeks notice…she acted like everyone in this industry knows that but it’s not clear and either way, it’s not fair to penalize a great employee simply because them leaving is inconvenient for you.

    But my question is this: I recently found out by accident that one of my coworkers is looking to leave. Should I warn him that our boss might go loco on him and that he might want to avoid giving only 2 weeks’ notice? Or should I just shut my mouth and leave it alone? My coworker is a hard worker and he deserves a good reference…I would hate to hear that he leaves with nothing simply because our boss is vindictive.

    1. CAA*

      Your boss is blowing smoke. It’s really not customary to give more than 2-weeks notice for almost any job in the U.S. Unless you have a contract, are bound by union reqs, do seasonal work, or are a C-level executive, then 2 weeks is the normal amount of notice to give. Sure your boss would like more notice and she would like you to feel guilty about leaving, but you have a right to move on and you don’t owe her anything other than your best professional work for the time you have left.

      The truth is, there is nothing you can do to guarantee that your boss will give you or your colleague a good reference in the future, and she is not required to give you any kind of reference at all. Normally you wouldn’t use her as a reference for your next job, but for the one after that, and it’s likely that she’ll have gotten over her snit by then. But if you think she’ll be an ongoing problem, then you should try to build up a list of references that don’t include her. Use other former employers, other managers at your current job, other people you’ve worked closely with who can vouch for the quality of your work, etc.

      Hopefully your colleague is observant enough to see how she’s treating you and make up his own mind about how much notice to give. As you have learned, giving more than 2 weeks doesn’t make your boss less awful, it just means you have to deal with the awfulness for a longer period of time.

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        I agree with much of this response. I would nuance one aspect just a bit, however: I think the amount of notice given is highly dependent on the circumstances, such as the level of the employee in relation to the context of the company.

        Personally, I wouldn’t go so far as to say that only a C-level executive would be expected to give more than 2 weeks notice. I would say that it would be regarded as somewhat less than professionally courteous for a key manager, especially a key manager in a small company, to give only 2 weeks notice. Even individual contributors who bear a significant amount of responsibility or who have very specific industry or technical knowledge should consider longer notice periods. Does it make you the worst human in the world if you only give 2 weeks notice under those circumstances? Of course not. But it does tend to leave a bad taste in the mouth of even the most generous bosses.

        I do agree that you have the right and responsibility to move on. But I also do think it matters how you leave a job. If one is in a key position–whatever that means–I think it will be remembered if that is yanked away from the company with only 2 weeks notice, which ultimately doesn’t serve the long term interests of the employee.

        1. valentine*

          It’s not safe for you to warn your colleague and your boss can promise whatever she wants, but sounds mercurial enough to decide on the fly what kind of reference she’ll give.

          Ideally, you would’ve stuck to the two weeks, even if you have a job offer.

  148. CR*

    I’m feeling extremely discouraged and depressed. I was fired from a toxic job in the summer. I landed a new job but it’s also not going well. I’ve been job hunting in the meantime and found out today that one job I was really excited about will not be moving forward. I feel like a failure. It all just feels so pointless.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Have you had the chance to get some therapy? I say this as someone who knows what it’s like to be bruised and broken after a rough ending. I wasn’t fired but I was essentially forced to quit [even though they didn’t know I’d quit, they broke the camels back with their shenanigans and I pulled my own ejection cord.]

      This is a process and it’s normal to feel like this after you’ve been drowning in toxicity. You internalize and rationalize their awful behavior and take the blame on yourself. It makes smart, competent, capable people double back and think “Am I actually an imposter?”

      You are not a failure. Even the best business minds out there have been fired or forced out at some point. Because sometimes people can’t hang with us, it’s that intense personality clash and it feels personal AF.

      You will come out the other side. But really, having someone to talk it out with can help. You are not a failure. You may just be carrying the toxic baggage from Job A to Job B and it’s burning your mental capacity out.

  149. SciGurl*

    Finished my PhD and making the jump out of academia. I have a civil service interview next in a department directly related to my thesis topic. Can any interviewers who have worked in government or policy give me some tips / highlight common mistakes they’ve seen? My institute has no careers service(!) Thank you.

  150. Pieska Boryska*

    Drug testing question: I’m job-hunting and planning to start using cannabis soon for medical reasons. My state is recreational-legal. If an employer wants me to take a drug test, would having a medical card help?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It depends on what they are testing for and why. Even with a prescription/medical card, there are some jobs where legal drugs can be a safety issue. It’s far more likely to be an issue in a job where you are operating machinery than it is a job where you’re sitting behind a desk all day.

    2. Allypopx*

      Depends on the employer. Because it’s still illegal federally, a lot of places are zero-tolerance. But maybe those are places you don’t want to work anyway?

      It’s tricky, because if you ask then you’re kind of outing yourself anyway, right? I’ve heard if you fail you can say “oh, since it’s legal and I have a medical card I figured it wouldn’t be a problem” and ask for a retest but there’s no super smooth way around it. Maybe hold off until you have a job. Sorry that’s not a super uplifting answer.

      (FWIW I’m in MA, which is recreational legal, and have never been drug tested for a job, but my husband just was so your mileage may vary)

    3. Rockin Takin*

      At my job (chemical company) no one can have cannibis in their system, regardless of medical need or legality. It’s a serious safety issue.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on the industry you’re in and your position.

      Don’t even bother with anyone who handles government contracts for instance, since they go by federal laws and not state when it comes to drug testing.

      Lots of places don’t even care about it in legalized states because it severely limits their job applicant pool. I would just aim for places that don’t drug test at all. I come from a industry that is either “test everyone and deal with how much it limits us” or “look away because if you don’t, you won’t have anyone to work for you ever.”

      If you have a card, it will help in some instances but not all. It’s better than just taking the recreational route at least.

      A personal story. A friend took a job and was up front about “My UA will come back positive for THC because I use it for pain management during my off-hours.” and the response was “That’s fine but naturally if you show up here visibly impaired, we will fire you. [duh]”

      It’s better to be up front about any medications that may pop a screening just so that they get to control the situation. It’s better to be up front than have them think you’re trying to play the system.

      But could you also wait to start taking the medication until after you’re in the door? Most places aren’t going to do random UA’s.

    5. pancakes*

      It depends on the state. There are 30 states where marijuana is legal for medical or recreational use or both, and half of them have legal protections for employees who use it off-duty. I’ll link to a Leafly article on this in another comment.

    7. Gumby*

      At my company even w/ the medical card wouldn’t matter (I’m fairly sure) because we have federal contracts all of which have a drug-free workplace FAR incorporated by reference. (52.223-6 and by the way – nice website redo) So you also need to work for not the government and not any company with federal contracts. Though, honestly, no one here has ever been drug tested to the best of my knowledge. Though we are all informed that we *could* be.

  151. Deeds*

    Just venting for the most part. I have a brother with autism that has lived with me for the last few years. He’s worked at Walmart as a seasonal employee and then later as part time. He ended up leaving that job after some really strange scheduling and tons and tons of time where they “forgot” to schedule him. He’s been looking for a new job ever since, and at this point it’s been 2 years now that he’s been trying. Recently I moved to another state and he opted to stay and live at the house I left, his goal has been to live as independently as possible. Right now my mother and I pay his bills, but it sure would be nice for him to pay for himself and have buying power again. I got him signed up at a government vocational rehab center where they FINALLY got him classified as most significantly disabled, (with fund cuts they’ll only help people in that category, any less “disabled” and you’re in for a long wait for services.) Anyways, they’re still pretty slow and there’s still no interviews scheduled or anything, and I get the feeling my brother is feeling worthless. Aren’t there any more resources out there for people on the spectrum that can help with this sort of thing?

    1. Allypopx*

      Are there any community groups you can look into, or local nonprofits for job placement? A lot of times places like that will help each other and share resources.

      I’m sorry, that’s super frustrating for your family and I hate that it’s common.

      1. Deeds*

        I think for the area the vocab place he’s signed up at is the best at the moment. He even applied for a job as a janitor for a disability community center and they wouldn’t even give him an interview!

        1. valentine*

          It’s legal to pay disabled people less than minimum wage and disability pay locks people to that amount, so the classification is perhaps a double-edged sword.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This breaks my frigging heart. Also just adds to my Walmart and retail in general hatred. I can’t believe how they just do that kind of crap to people, let alone someone who is disabled.

      Unless there’s another outreach program [which I see there most likely isn’t], he’s hooked up with the best place possible to help.

      We got one of the best workers ever from Voc Rehab years ago.

      Are there any manufacturers in the area? There are lot of jobs in manufacturing that require just someone to be cool with really boring menial tasks. They are great jobs for people who like staying busy.

      Look at jobs labeled “production assistant” or “warehouse assistant”. Most of the time they’re dying to get someone in those positions who will show up, listen and get things done in a relatively timely manner.

    3. E*

      Do you have a Goodwill in your area? I know they do a lot of programs for job placement, though I’m not sure what extent they are involved in disability placement but they might be able to recommend resources too.

  152. Chronic Overthinker*

    *Ahem* Just a general announcement. Do not expect your co-worker to understand they made a mistake if you fix the mistake yourself and tell their boss. That doesn’t improve the situation.

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        People just need to know they made a mistake and have the opportunity to get feedback and learn how to do things correctly! That being said, any advice on how to solicit feedback/constructive criticism from co-workers and still saving face?

  153. Push for Change, or Deal With It?*

    I’ve got sort of a 2-parter : I have an issue with a specific company process, and I am wondering about my fit here because of it (and other things in the same vein). If you can make it through my post, I’d love some advice about staying here as long as I can and how to deal with the feeling of being “stuck” in a company that I think is also “stuck.”

    TL, DR : Anyone have any pros to having a phone system that doesn’t let you dial an extension?
    Is it more “people-friendly” to have a system where you have to ask a receptionist to connect you, when you already know who you need?

    For background, I am a receptionist, for a construction sub contractor, for divisions I have never worked in, and there is a sales department, which I have never dealt with. I get calls from people asking incredibly specific questions without knowing who they need, when they could dial a department extension and get to an available salesperson in that division. My employer thinks it is more “people-friendly,” but there are other issues with him not wanting the company to become “too corporate”, while the company itself has apparently grown three times the size in the last year alone (there seems to be a bit of an ostrich-head-in-the-sand situation, there). I am relatively new, about 4 months in, and I’ve heard from people at every level that this company “hires to retire.” To be fair, two people have retired since I started.

    Company fit aside, is there any benefit I am missing to having the phone system set up like this? It is driving me crazy when I can spend on average 30 seconds to a minute between calls, and can’t focus on other tasks that are also important. I can basically “stay afloat” if I do nothing but the bare minimum. But I want to improve the role, by expediting processes and looking into costs we don’t need. I can’t commit time, focus, and motivation to this under the current circumstances.

    For example, when I started I was handed off an incredibly complicated issue re: how we print stamps using a certain service. We had a paid account, which wasn’t working due to a faulty transition on the service’s part, but we were still having to pay for it in order to keep it during the transition (I believe we were being grandfathered in on a better price, or something like that). After a month or so, I managed to secure a free account so we could still print stamps, since they didn’t know how long it would take. It took months of me periodically checking on this, but after pulling all relative personnel into the same room with me while I was on the phone to get what would otherwise be scattered and disinterested answers, I found out we don’t need the paid service at all – we get what we need using their free service. Accounting says they are frustrated the previous receptionist didn’t look into this sooner – we have been paying a monthly fee for years without needing to. I’m frustrated accounting didn’t look into it either, but am staying mum on that one. So I bothered to do this – which it sounds like it didn’t matter either way, since it had been going on for years – because I wanted to improve my role and the situation for the company. But why should I bother when they don’t want to grow?

    There are some definite positives to the company in general, and the people overall are awesome, though rambly and disorganized due to a past where “everybody did a little of everything,” and “people don’t want to let go even though it makes sense,” and that our general manager is “conflict-adverse.”

    1. Parenthetically*

      Gosh, I’ll put my hand up as a person who is THRILLED when an actual human answers the phone and connects me to an office! I despise being put through an infinite series of prompts as though I’m expected to know the internal structure of the business when I can talk to a person and say, “Hi, I need to speak to someone in accounts receivable please!” From a customer service perspective, I think an actual human answering the phone is always going to be preferable because it results in far less time spent on the phone.

      If it’s taking away from your other work, though, surely a very brief menu is possible: “Thank you for calling We Build Stuff. If you know your party’s five-digit extension, please dial it now. To hear the department menu, press star. Otherwise, stay on the line or press zero to speak to an operator to direct your call correctly.”

      1. Push for Change, or Deal With It?*

        Oh of course, I wouldn’t want to take *away* the possibility of reaching the receptionist. And I agree, a complicated prompt system is not the way to go. It’s really only the 2 sales departments/divisions that need a triage of sorts. (In my ideal: Each salesperson can set DND to be taken out of their normal triage place (more experienced sales people, or sales people that can do both divisions, should be at the top of the triage, while less experienced sales people would be reached last.) Other than that, all calls would still come through me. If there are no available sales people, the call would ring back to me to know how to proceed – email, voicemail, etc.)

        Just having the sales dept not ring automatically to me would be great. Another thing is that the sales teams are vastly understaffed; we only have one person who is entirely devoted to one of the divisions; there are four sales people who are in the second division, with two of them who can handle the other division calls as well. One of those two is working from home until we hear otherwise (due to health, which is info I’m obviously not giving out to callers), but he doesn’t have a company cell phone so he is only reachable by email.

        Imagine if you called into a car rental agency. You might say, “Hi, I’m (name), and I’m looking to rent a (specific vehicle) for these dates.” You assume you’re reaching a counter, or a small group of people. Well, this company may have been set up like this at one point, but it is SO far from that now. I’m not even in the same part of the building as the sales people, and practically no one uses the entrance by the receptionist desk, so I don’t know if they’re even here.

        But no, I have been told very bluntly by people in multiple depts, that even a short menu will never happen because the company president prefers the feel of a smaller, more intimate company. I have also been told there will never be an Office Manager, because he doesn’t like the sound of “Manager.” But the growth makes this stuff not make sense anymore.
        I want to stay here for at least a year; I need an office job on my resume, as my last few years have been in retail. I don’t want to just “coast,” I really want to improve processes. But it feels like banging my head against a wall sometimes. Maybe part of it is that my prior receptionist experience was in the midwest, and I am currently on the west coast (I myself am from the South/Midsouth). I have noticed things out this way are WAY more relaxed than anywhere else I have lived. I guess I jive with that overall, but it’s specific things like this that make me wonder about what kind of culture I fit best.

        Aside from culture, I’m just trying to figure out how reasonable it is to not have a phone system like the ones I am used to working for. It seems like it unnecessarily creates more work, to futilely hold on to a past ideal of the company. I think they should have hired someone fresh out of high school or maybe college, not someone with a bachelor degree who stated they were looking for a job where they could grow and take on more.

        1. valentine*

          You can frame the phone thing as callers connecting more quickly to the proper source. You must get a lot of “Well, I thought you would know.” It turns out my doctor’s office has an overflow call center, but they don’t say that, so I’ve wasted a lot of time on questions and comments irrelevant to them and, if I knew, I’d probably just call during non-peak times, to be sure I get the on-site staff.

          How about an office organizer or logistics neighbor?

    2. Ranon*

      I swear this is somehow a thing in the construction/ AEC industry, my boss felt the same way forever even though we’re small enough we don’t even have a receptionist. He finally broke down when we moved offices and he had to give up our million year old phone system, unfortunately I don’t know of another solution but I wish you much luck!

  154. Still Looking (Maybe)*

    I’m also venting here. I work in a small firm and our assistant is retiring. We’ve interviewed and hired a replacement to start Monday. Today she says she can’t take the job because the pay is too low. She’s already accepted and sat on this for days to tell us right before she starts that she changes her mind.

    I don’t mind that she wants more, I mind that she waited this long to bring it up. My boss will do one counter but we can’t meet what she made before. The range we are paying was in our ad so no surprise there. And now we can’t go for our second candidate who took a job elsewhere after not getting an offer from us.

    I know this happens but boy it’s frustrating when it does.

    1. sacados*

      I wouldn’t even bother to counter … unless she’s the sort of stellar candidate that you couldn’t dream of letting go. This sort of last-minute bait and switch is in terribly bad faith and brings up a lot of concerns about her.

    2. Kiwiii*

      Two jobs ago we were hiring an admin role, the pay is /fine/ for the area (not great, fine) and publicly posted, and had a woman accept with a start date about four weeks out. I guess she hadn’t had many jobs in the part of the city we were in and hadn’t realized that when, in the initial “we’d like to interview you” email, we’d said that there was no cheap or free public parking nearby, that that meant there was really no cheap or free public parking nearby and about two weeks later, when she realized this, called back adament that we would have to provide her with parking. (It was absolutely not an option, as we were a government agency and couldn’t add anything additional to her compensation package that others in the pay-scale didn’t have.)

      She responded with something about how she’d make it work, but then the next week called to let us know she wouldn’t be coming in after all. The other two people we’d also been considering for the role had already gotten jobs elsewhere. I would have much rather she told us that that was a non-negotiable for the get go!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sigh. This is so rude and out of touch, I’m sorry you’re dealing with the curveball nonsense.

      The time to negotiate is when you’re offered a job. When you say “Okay, I’ll start on the 22nd!” that means that has already been dealt with and we’re all set to go.

      I don’t fault anyone for negotiating but I have a huge problem with people who try to get you over a barrel. So they’re like “Okay, they ceased looking, the other candidates are probably already snatched up. I got them where I want them! Let’s shake them down for more money!” [DO NOT counter offer this person, they’re not trustworthy, they showed you that. Let her walk. Save yourself.]

      Another job listing and another round of finding another person is worth it. It’s worth not getting this person in there and having her act like this over God knows what else. I would just be like “Dang, we almost got shot there. But dodged the bullet before they were actually given employee status.”

    4. Still Looking (Maybe)*

      She is a strong candidate in a small market, and my boss does have a little flexibility in the budget to increase the offer. It would likely affect her post job raises but he wants to give it a try.

      To me it showed lack of maturity and organization, but maybe I was charitable in my thinking. We’ll see. I do wish we had more candidates to fall back on.

      1. Buttons*

        I wouldn’t be surprised if she has accepted another offer. I bet she accepted the job but was hoping to get an offer from some place else. Good luck!

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I have a feeling she still is going to leave you high and dry at some point really soon, if she does take a counter offer. This is on your boss if it goes that way. Just remember that.

        I know what it’s like to have very limited candidates out there for some positions. You still end up with the bottom of the GD bucket sludge when it’s one of these employees job market times. God speed.

  155. it's me*

    DOH! We’re moving offices today and a coworker asked me how I liked where I’d be moving—I said it might be a problem that I’m near a coworker who smokes cigars and smells like tobacco all the time. (This was something I’d already mentioned to my manager; if I get headaches, something will be worked out, but it’s possible I’ll be far away enough it won’t be a problem.) Unbeknownst to both of us, said coworker was in an office nearby with the door open, very quietly talking with the manager in that office. I wouldn’t have thought he’d be over here in the first place, nor did I know he was friends with this manager (totally different department). I didn’t say anything mean about him, and I’m sure he’s used to or is aware of the possibility of people getting headaches or having reactions to cigar smoke, but I still am like DOH.

    1. Allypopx*

      Oops! But also I’m not sure that’s the worst thing. If he’s creating a potential health problem for his coworkers maybe some social consequences for that isn’t the worst thing.

      (Not trying to start a smoking debate, I just get migraines and I totally understand the concerns you have. I’d have the same comment for heavy perfume or essential oils)

    2. Jamie*

      There is nothing wrong in what you said.

      On this topic I’ve shared an office with a smoker since I got here in spring. I don’t smoke, but it didn’t bother me. In fact I was surprised how little smell lingered when he got back from one of his many cigarettes per day.

      Last week or so the smell is overpowering. I’ve gotten a few headaches, but I get those a lot so I’m keeping track to see if related, but Idk why it’s so bad all of a sudden.

      He hasn’t changed brands so all I can think is it’s getting colder here so maybe he’s smoking in his car rather than outside so it’s lingering more?

      1. whistle*

        You could ask him to wash his hands when gets back from smoking, and that would cut down on the smell a lot.

  156. RoadsLady*

    This is more of a story, looking for an explanation. Husband took a job to pay the bills. It didn’t seem the best-organized small business, but it had some clout, been around for years, and he didn’t plan to stay around long. As it turned out, he loved the field and stayed around for five years, picking up skills, though still raising an eyebrow at certain things. It wasn’t until he joined the inner circle of top managers did he realize how bad things were. So, he jumped ship. He and his new company still have connections with the old.

    This past week, New Boss got a call from Old Company Connection, a plea for some sort of help.

    Employees and clients, all very frustrated, were screaming at the low-level admin and HR folks, who were barely kids.

    Old Boss had locked himself away in his office.

  157. Anonymous at a University*

    This is late, but if anyone has advice, I’d appreciate it.

    I work at a university with a colleague who is tenured (I am not) and with whom I’ve been friends for a while. However, in the last year or so she’s become incredibly suspicious of everything if someone knows it before she does and incredibly insistent that all information be shared with her, whether or not it would be appropriate to do so. If I mention something I heard in passing from another faculty member, she immediately demands, “Where did you hear that?” and gets upset at me for not informing her earlier, plus at the other faculty member for not looping her in. If a faculty-wide e-mail gets sent out, even if this is the first time everybody is hearing about it, she will send a nasty e-mail saying that as someone who has tenure, she should have been informed first. If someone did send an e-mail and she deletes it without reading it- she does this a lot- or doesn’t see it, she accuses other faculty who did read it and are discussing its contents of being a “clique.” She’s also upset that some committees she’s not on keep their communications private and says that if other people don’t agree with her when we have public discussions, they’re “silencing her voice.” It’s reached the point where people are wary of informing her of anything because they know it’ll blow up no matter how early they let her know.

    Is there ANY way of dealing with this? I haven’t found one yet, and have tried directly telling her that I’m tired of being yelled at (she called me part of the clique and treated me coldly for a few weeks), ignoring her, and resending an e-mail she missed without commentary. Nothing has changed.

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      Ugh! Sorry, I have no advice for you, but I do have sympathy! I am dealing with a similar situation. Only in my case, it’s one of my employees. There are several people on her same level (managers) and it is not unusual for me to announce a policy or seek their input on something all at the same time.

      Like clockwork, “Jane” becomes mightily offended when she hasn’t been looped in first or pre-warned before everyone else. To be fair, she certainly has the biggest staff reporting to her and is responsible for the biggest budget of all the managers. But she is a manager equal in hierarchy to any other manager. There is absolutely no reason for me to share new policies with her (for what? to get her approval?) before sharing them with other managers.

      Again, I have to answers for you, but I know how tiresome that can be.

    2. Buttons*

      How weird, especially since it is a new behavior. I wonder if there is something medically going on.
      It is tough because you aren’t her manager– but if you are comfortable, you could say something like “Jane, I am not sure if you are aware of this. But you get really angry if you feel like you someone has kept information from you. It is really odd and aggressive and unlike you. It would do us all good if you could remember that usually people have good intentions, and no one is doing anything on purpose or to slight you.”
      Or if you only want to address it when she is angry at you “Jane, really? You think I am intentionally keeping things from you? This is weirdly aggressive and out of character for you.”
      Good luck!

      1. Anonymous at a University*

        I really doubt it’s anything medical. It seems to go back to the fact that she became tenured last year, and is now obsessed with the idea that she’s high-ranking, so everything has to come to her first…for some reason. I know other newly-tenured faculty who are not acting like this, but she is. She also wants to tell me really nasty things about colleagues she thinks are part of this “clique”- colleagues I have to work with every day- and gets mad when I try to disagree.

        I have said I’m not keeping things from her, but she tells me that I am if I don’t inform her even before I know myself, basically.

        1. Buttons*

          That is so weird. I am not sure you can do anything more than what you are doing- just keep telling her she is being unreasonable and rude. Good luck!

    3. I edit everything*

      Since you say you’ve been friendly for a while (years?), have you considered just asking her? Something like, “Hey, I’ve noticed these reactions recently, and I wanted to check in and see if you’re OK. Is there something going on?”

      You say it’s a new thing, so maybe there’s been some kind of change in her work relationships or private life that has made her more reactive to feeling out of the loop. Depending on how the conversation goes, a “word to the wise” kind of follow-up might help: “I don’t think this approach to department politics is going to improve things.”

      1. Anonymous at a University*

        Yeah, we’ve been friends for years. I’ve asked her what’s going on, and she tells me that now she’s tenured, she “deserves to know” everything. I’ve heard the idea that everyone else is in a clique before, though. She just thought it was a “popular kids” kind of thing, whereas now she seems to have decided that people are actively conspiring to keep her out of the loop.

        If I had to guess, I think it’s that she thought she would be granted a pass to some kind of ultimate power when she became tenured, that’s not happened, and now she’s decided it’s because people are keeping the power away from her, not that, y’know, tenured faculty have job security but do not run the campus. Understanding it doesn’t help me deal with it, though.

        1. Oh No She Di'int*

          Yep. Again, I totally get this. My guess, which aligns with yours, is that there is some deep-rooted insecurity there. I mean, we all have insecurities, so it’s no knock on her. But it would seem that at some level she is not certain of the position/authority/power/whatever that she actually does have. So she seems to be constantly on guard against threats to it. As though it’s quite delicate and can be taken away at any moment.

          I am projecting here from the situation with my own employee. But the facts do fit the case.

    4. Cora*

      My current boss started acting exactly like this as soon as she was promoted to interim director of our department. My best guess is that it is a combination of being very insecure in her position, and hyper-aware of anything that could reflect badly on her (since she is under close watch of her own boss, while they decide if she has what it takes to be director permanently).
      I’ve brought it up to her several times and it doesn’t seem to be improving. It is a bit stranger in your colleagues case because there doesn’t seem to be any particular reason why she needs to be “in the know” about everything.
      I don’t have good advice other than to ignore it for the most part.

  158. Council'd*

    My team recently (about 2 months ago) got a new hire and we get along wonderfully. We have similar educational backgrounds (not at all common in this field) and interests, she’s catching on very quickly to the various eccentricities in our office/position and asking all the right questions, and she’s made jokes about us being the same person; if I had met her anywhere else I’d want to spend all my time with her. That said, I’ve never really had the sort of relationship with coworkers where I’d hang out with them outside of work and am not sure what would be appropriate/how to even go about initiating a proper friendship with her. Any advice? (If it matters, we’re similar in age (mid-late 20s) and though I’m the senior-most member on the same team as her, have helped with quite a bit of her training, and am a couple pay-steps above her, I am not in any way her supervisor.)

    1. Buttons*

      I would start with lunch or coffee. Once that becomes a regular thing it is likely to evolve into “hey, this weekend a bunch of us are going to X, you should come too!” :)

      1. valentine*

        I would enjoy the workplace rapport and leave it there. (But I’m a “Devil you know/Don’t bleep where you eat” person.)

  159. Antisocial*

    If a company is holding an optional event during work hours, that ends at the end of the workday, can I go home before the event ends? I’m salaried/exempt. I guess both “technical” and “is this rude” types of responses are welcome.

    1. Kiwiii*

      It totally depends on your office culture. I’ve been at companies where that would absolutely not fly, and am currently at one where it wouldn’t be a big deal at all.

      1. Buttons*

        I agree. It is going to be dependant on your work culture. At my current job, it isn’t a big deal if people arrive late or leave early to one of the work events.

    2. Qwerty*

      Most places I’ve worked the culture was “go to the event or keep working”, so leaving early would be seen as rude. Usually the expectation is that if you don’t want to be at the event, you go back to work.

      The reasoning is that they are holding the event during work hours so that they aren’t digging into your personal time, not that they are inviting you to spend those hours as personal time.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Echoing that it’s about your company culture.

      Here if we have something like that, it’s fine if you leave a little early but it would be weird if you left like hours early, you know? If your day usually ends at 5 and you leave at 4:30, after an event was started at 3, no big deal. If it starts at 3 and you leave at 3:30, everyone is going to be like “WTF…”

      Even technically will vary because do you have core hours? Are you a manager who is expected to mingle at these kind of “bonding” events?

      Yeah it’s optional but each company has different ideas of “optional” and all that jazz. If you have core hours, I wouldn’t assume you could leave before those are at least up.

  160. Coverage Associate*

    An offer I rejected in May has been renewed. It’s not a great initial offer, but I just got some historical bonus and merit raise information from the group and firm, and it’s really good. I just have to decide if I want the change. Usually I am happy where I am, but I probably could be happier.

    Anyway, it’s a good lesson in getting as much total compensation information as you can before declining an offer.

  161. Rockin Takin*

    I am about 10 weeks pregnant, and since my 3rd week I’ve been having difficulties with nausea, throwing up, and exhaustion. I told my boss and co-supervisors so that they knew what was up, and my boss is allowing me a little flexibility with my hours.
    Because it’s hard to hide, several of our workers have noticed my being sick. A good chunk of my workers (there’s 4 supervisors and about 45 worker under us) have noticed my not feeling well, and were gossiping.
    A day ago a worker came up to me, in front of a group, and said congrats on my good news. I asked her what she was talking about, and she said oh well your pregnant. When I asked how she knew this/who told her, she said oh well people talk and also she noticed that I’ve gained weight and have that general look.
    I was stunned, and also frustrated, embarrassed, and angry.
    The next day at a group meeting I felt forced to announce my pregnancy to the team to stop them from whispering about me. My boss then told the team that no one should be gossiping about anyone’s health, and moving forward should mind their own business.

    Does anyone have any advice for how to move forward about this? A lot of these women were so excited, and it made me uncomfortable because I feel like my pregnancy is my business, not theirs. As their boss, I’m unsure how to even speak to them about not discussing my pregnancy.

    1. Bloopmaster*

      Oh wow, that’s hard. It sounds like your boss is willing to push that message though! And might be willing to make similar statements (regarding not gossiping about people’s health) if you request (I recommend requesting).

      If people come up to try and talk pregnancy or babies with you, I recommend saying something like “I like to keep matters related to my health and personal life separate from my work. Thanks for understanding.” Just keep a neutral tone when you deliver it. Then quickly pivot the conversation back to a work-related topic.

      They are the one’s who should be uncomfortable and embarrassed. It’s extremely common to not want your pregnancy public or discussed at work, ESPECIALLY so early in the pregnancy. And people should never assume that they are free to discuss your pregnancy, unless you signal that it’s welcome. Don’t they have any concept of how inappropriate their comments are, or how hurtful they could be if someone is NOT thrilled to be pregnant, or not keeping the baby, or at risk of a miscarriage/serious health issues, or actively navigating those problems.

      Also–if you’ve not asked your OB for medication to help with the nausea (or even just taking vit B6 and Unisom), I would 100% recommend doing so ASAP. It was the only thing that helped me function like a human being at work in the first trimester. Doesn’t help with the exhaustion, though.

      1. Rockin Takin*

        Oh I am already on meds. They help for the most part, but weeks 3-5 were really bad and I threw up a few times at work.
        I almost wanted to tell the employee who assumed I was pregnant that I had miscarried, just to make her feel bad. But as a supervisor I have to be careful about what I say.

        Also- I had to dispell a number of pregnancy rumors over the years. I have acid reflux and tend to puke more than the average person. People just assume that because a woman is sick, she is pregnant. It’s beyond frustrating.

        If any of these women try and touch my belly though, it’s game over.

        1. tangerineRose*

          For the person who announced your pregnancy, can you talk to her and say something like “In the future, please don’t speculate on this type of thing at work and don’t announce it. There could be personal reasons why a woman might not want to announce it yet, so let her announce it in her own time.”

    2. Gumby*

      You can’t really tell them not to discuss your pregnancy at all. It’s totally natural to go home and say to a partner, “Oh, my boss is pregnant. I have no idea how we’ll handle her leave,” or whatever. But you can absolutely instruct them about what they can discuss *with you* or *at work* (maybe, the last one is a bit iffy depending on how comprehensive you are wanting to make this ban). There are any number of letters on handling a pregnancy at work, how to deal with intrusive co-workers, etc. elsewhere on the site. Most of which boil down to ‘communicate your reasonable boundaries clearly’ and ‘change the topic.’

      1. valentine*

        You can’t really tell them not to discuss your pregnancy at all.
        Sure they can.

        I was really surprised that these are your employees because you can shut them down when they (physically?) corner you or make inappropriate statements. You can say, “That’s inappropriate,” each and every time, tell them where the line is, and work the disciplinary procedure.

        In future, you don’t have to reveal anything before you’re ready and it’s common to talk about TPTB, though they shouldn’t be talking about you on a personal level, so stopping them gossiping about you in general shouldn’t be a goal.

  162. Sad Squishy Cat*

    I would love some advice about how to handle a not so great performance review.

    I got an over all rating of meets expectations/needs improvement. This past year at work has been tough as we have been onboarding a new CEO in addition to all the other work we do as teapot marketers and designers. I’ve spent the past year working late, working on weekends, working on holidays, working on my vacations, working while I was dog sick with the flu (get your flu shots people!), working on my birthday (which was on a weekend), working on my kid’s birthday (also on a weekend), working while out of town during the funerals of both of my grandmothers, etc.

    I repeatedly talked to my boss about how much I was working and that it was too much for myself and our part-timer to handle. When asked what would help, I brought up outsourcing some projects and pushing back deadlines of non-time sensitive projects. Neither of those things really happened.

    During my review, I brought up again, how burnt out I was by the past year and how I really needed to be able to take vacations and holidays off. My boss says they agree with me and then brings up that the workload will be increasing even more this year, but we’re hiring a teapot writer, but probably also cutting the hours my part-time tea pot designer can assist me.

    I didn’t know what to say at the time, but I feel stuck. I’m so vital to the company that I can’t be gone, but also I need to do better. I should absolutely be able to take vacations/sick days, but also we’re going to increase your work load and cut your support staff.

    I feel like my boss is framing this as they understand that the workload is too much for *me* but I need them to understand that it’s too much for one person, period. I’m also really resentful of how much I’ve worked (I have almost 10 weeks of paid leave accrued!) only to be told it’s not enough.

    Does anyone have advice on how I can bring this up to my boss, or a different way of framing all this for me? Maybe I’m looking at this wrong?

    1. ByeFelicia*

      A boss that gives you a poor review after you’ve busted your ass for them isn’t one that deserves any more of your time or talent. Who cares if you’re essential to the company? Leave. If you were that important to them, they would make it possible for you to take vacations and respect your personal time. If you’ve already tried bringing this up to your boss and nothing is changing, it’s time to start applying elsewhere.

      1. Mazzy*

        This is what I’m thinking. You already have the mediocre review, so the worst pretty much already happened. So if it’s true the problem is the work and nothing you’re doing, and only you can truly gauge that, then I’d be pulling back a little. What are they going to do, write another mediocre review?

        Have you outlined specifically what you’ve done and how long it took and tried to tie a dollar amount to the tasks, if possible, though? That might be step #1

    2. Kiwiii*

      Things to consider:

      1) What would happen if you stopped going above and beyond and started doing a more reasonable amount? Or, when they ask you to take on more, you were mindful of your time and told them that to do the new thing you’d have to push back a deadline for X or Y?
      2) Assume you take your boss at their word and nothing changes except for how much help you’re getting, how long are you willing to continue doing this volume of work for what you’re getting paid? How long can you keep this up without significant impact on your well-being?

    3. Rockin Takin*

      Is it possible that your management team is required to only have so many good reviews? I’ve been forced to give shitty reviews to overall good performers, because my upper managers needed a certain amount of “bad” ratings each year.

      Also- maybe just be more direct and say it isn’t you, that the work literally is more than one person can do?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Any management that requires managers to sandbag their employees and give them unjustified reviews are vile and should be evicted from the planet.

        1. Rockin Takin*

          It seems common in very large companies in my industry. They mean to avoid having managers who don’t actually review their people. But then it backfires.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Yeah, they just need to hold managers to higher standards.

            I always drive home to give real reviews because if we terminate someone with false reviews, it makes us look like buttholes [it’s usually more of a drawn out “there are consequences to this behavior” talk of course].

            It is a common practice that I’ve heard of as well, it’s def not an industry thing. It’s a “companies who want to put into place arbitrary rules instead of making sure everyone is doing their jobs right” it tends to be the big places where everyone is viewed as a number and then people wonder why they aren’t given growth opportunities.

            It’s one of those things that paves the way for discrimination as well. Lots of bigoted managers just pick their faves [usually the white cis males] to get those coveted banging reviews that come with raises, promotions, training, etc. *barfs*

            This isnt’ a rant at you, I know you’re not the one making the rules, it’s a general ‘this practice is awful and needs to be burned and buried with so many other bad life choices made by corporate America.”

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Can you start tracking your time and showing them how much work is on your plate and the estimated amount of time it will take to get it done? Is it possible to compare notes with people whose jobs are similar to yours and get an idea of whether the amount of time you spend on tasks is on par with others?

      Basically, I’m thinking you want to be able to say something like, “It seems to be a common rule of thumb in the industry that it takes about 25 hours of work on average to write and design a teapot from start to finish, and I’ve been working at that pace consistently. With the number of projects I have coming due in the next month [and show them the list], at 25 hours per teapot, that’s about 250 hours of work this month. Jane puts in 20 hours a week, which means I need to put in the other 230, and that amounts to almost sixty hours of work per week this month. I’m OK with putting in extra time during busy periods, or when we get hit with unexpected emergencies, but that kind of workload is not something I can sustain indefinitely. I’ve been unable to take advantage of my sick time and vacation benefits as a result of this kind of schedule, and if the workload increases, I’ll definitely be unable to use them–it’s almost like I don’t have those benefits now.”

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      If you’re so vital to the business that you can’t be gone, yet you get an overall rating of meets expectations/needs improvement – that doesn’t actually make sense.

      I recommend job searching. Because sometimes, the only way to fix it is to leave and let them deal with the fallout. Your boss sucks.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        That first paragraph is exactly what I was thinking. You can’t be both invaluable and meets expectations/needs improvement.

        Based on the cutting of your PT designer’s hours, I don’t see where you’re gaining a whole lot of assistance with adding the teapot writer, particularly if they’re adding even more work.

        For your sanity and health, I think it might beneficial to start job hunting.

      2. tangerineRose*

        Yeah, job searching sounds like the right thing to me, too. Your boss is overworking you and then giving you a bad review – that’s just not OK.

    6. Natalie*

      I’m so vital to the company that I can’t be gone

      Who cares? Do you own any part of this company? Are you sharing in its success in any way beyond you paycheck.

      Leave. And in the meantime, set some FIRM boundaries around your working hours.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        That was my first thought. You may be vital to them but they should not be vital to you, esp if your return on investment is a lukewarm review and promise of more work and less help next year.

        Feel free to use your compensation (PTO) as you see fit , hopefully for some interviews elsewhere.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Unless you have equity in the place, you cannot care more and work harder than the rest of the group.

      I’ve learned over the years that you cannot kill yourself for people who are so disrespectful of what you are giving to them. Be that low salary or low praise or this kind of disrespectful BS in the end. This place is not where you need to be. They are stepping all over you and then when you say “Dude, ouch that hurts” they say “So what, stay down there, door mat.”

      You are skilled. You care. You are a person who would be loved anywhere you go. Not just this sh*thole that you’ve found yourself.

      Pick yourself up off the floor from this latest beating and look at all the job listings that are available right now. Send your resumes everywhere else.

      When you need time to have an interview? Use your sick time. Use your PTO. And unplug like I’m sure the majority of your coworkers are doing. They are doing it because they’re not the company whipping boy like you’ve turned into. You’re the workhorse, the one they’ll ride until you collapse and they just toss your body in the ditch and run to find a new one to work into the ground.

      You deserve better. This is not okay.

    8. Yup*

      I worked at a company that had a culture of rewarding results instead of effort. This made a lot of sense to me as I was able to achieve great results with medium effort whereas others required greater effort to achieve lesser results.

    9. Sad Squishy Cat*

      Thanks for all the feedback! I really appreciate the perspectives.

      When I say I’m invaluable, so I can never be gone, it’s because I can’t get time off without first checking that our part time person can cover for me. Overall the work I do is needed, but not the main focus of the company. We specialize in teapot education. So if I’m out and don’t have coverage, we’re fine. We have a ton of tea pot educators and sales staff, who are performing the real work that generates revenue.

      I have started looking, but I’m hung up right now because I have parent who was just diagnosed with cancer and I may need to take FMLA to care for them. I’ve worked here 8+ years and I’m just incensed that I may have loose out on my ability to take FMLA when it’s really needed and loose out on using all the all the accrued leave I have. My company only pays out 4 weeks of leave and have almost 10.

  163. Tiffany Aching*

    What is normally asked in a job candidate phone screen? I haven’t been through an application process in a loooooong time where this was part of it, but now I’ve got one coming up. I know it’s done with the hiring manager and HR (this is actually at my current employer), and it’s not the same thing as the full interview process (the hiring manager and others do separate interviews)–it’s a way of screening out who will and won’t be moved into the full interview process. I’m guessing salary expectations, for sure (no point interviewing someone who won’t settle for anything less than twice what they’re willing to offer), and maybe checking on anything that they had questions about in my resume or cover letter. What else should I be prepared for?

    1. Kiwiii*

      The last one I did was sort of like a mini interview. They wanted brief examples of work that I did that matched what they were asking for in the ad and wanted to make sure that we were on the same page for salary.

    2. Buttons*

      Mine have always been like mini-interviews “why are you leaving your current role?” “what about this job made you apply?” “tell me about your current role.”
      Sometimes the hiring manager will ask the recruiter or HR to ask a question about a specific skill if it is something they really need. For example, I always ask my recruiter to pre-screen by asking what is their level of expertise using a certain e-learning software, how often they use it, how long have they been using it, and do they have any certifications in the software.
      Good luck!

    3. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      In addition to the other responses, there may be a question about their web site or their products. As in, “what products do you like best and why?” or “what questions can I answer about our website?” or “what did you like best about our website?”

      Also, there might be a behavioral question or two. Seldom more. “Tell me about a time when you dealt with a difficult co-worker?”

      They might ask if the commute poses a problem for you (depends on the area. This is becoming A Thing in San Diego). Or if there’s something on there end – like an extra early start time- that would be a problem for you. OR, how amenable you are to overtime.

      They might finish with ascertaining your availability for next step in the process. And, if you are currently fielding any other offers or have interviewed elsewhere and expect to be moved up in the process.

  164. Mashed potato*

    I get that some work has a rough talking culture but I’m still uncomfortable with the idea that if you enjoy presence if someone you gotta roast them like school children. Maybe I’m socially dumb but that part of human interactions confuse me. My work is fine and a lot of people ask me questions or depend on my reliability but that don’t mean you can jokingly roast me or joke about me like thanksgiving

  165. AnonymousMarketeer*

    I found out yesterday that my lead, who started working at our company on 1 August, has given notice and is leaving for a new gig that starts 1 November. 3 months she was my lead and she was great. But she was way more talented and above the level of her direct communications manager colleague, also hired 1 August.

    I wish my lead luck but our team now has the bullying, aggressive comms manager to deal with, and… Ugh. The bully says things in meetings like, “I worked at Big Accounting Firm in SAAS and I have these skills, and those skills….” as preface to slides about her comms stuff….ugh. You get the picture. She also swears a lot in team meetings and has even used terms about body parts that are not work ok words. She also hangs on, like drapes herself on, and touches the men on the team a lot.

    My lead left for a better gig but also because the other comms manager is terrible and insecure.

    Just ugh. And on top of all this I have to sit through meetings with this person and she is just obnoxious in interrupting people.

    Sorry for the rant.

  166. EA in CA*

    I’m a career admin, having grown from a receptionist position to being an executive assistant the past 5 years. My boyfriend’s boss approved me with the opportunity to join his team as an executive account manager for his IT firm. BF approved me joining since we’d have little to do with each other during the work day and the hours are slightly different. I’m nervous about the prospect, mainly because I don’t have a sales or technical background. However this role is mainly focused on relationship building with current clients and maintaining those accounts. He’s valuing client relationships, organization, presence and personality over the hard technical skills, and feels like I cover those things.

    Anyone who works as an account manager can give me some guidance in their experience in that type of role? What questions should I be asking him when we meet in the next couple of weeks? This feels so vastly different than what I am doing today that I just need to hear about other people’s experiences moving in different roles.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What I’ve done over the years can be classified as account management. And most of the time, you will always have to learn the “product” after taking a role regardless. Are you comfortable with the learning curve at the start but then eventually warming up to having more technical knowledge? Since you can really learn sales and technical aspects “on the ground” level if it’s something that fits your capabilities.

      This is pretty natural progression from an EA position. You’ve go the personality to deal with “high maintenance” people, communication and organizational skills. Those are all critical to moving into account management, since yes, customers care more about your ability to find their answers and communicate with them well [being personable, willing to help etc] than knowing answers right away. So I agree with his boss that the characteristics he’s looking for are crucial and not always something you can “teach” or learn on the fly. So you are a good chance to take to learn the intricate details about the product/technology involved along the way.

      I didn’t know a dang thing about anything I’ve sold over the years before I started working where I’ve worked. Within a few weeks, I had most of the critical things down. By a year in, I was considered an “expert”. I could walk people through assembling their products on the phone without looking at the instructions most of the time. So you will learn it!

      The key is really how long does he think is normal for the “learning” phase. Will there be training provided for you so that you can be more comfortable and confident in your first few weeks at least? Sales really doesn’t require any background, I’d really focus on those technical aspects. Sales is all about just being pleasant in the end, unless they’re expecting you to find more clients instead of waiting for them to come to you. I’ve always had products that they come to us for, no cold calling or weird drop-ins kind of thing. So it depends on their scope of sales in that way as well.

      1. EA in CA*

        Thanks so much for your comment! It was really helpful hearing from someone who is in that line of work. I would say that I pick things up pretty quickly as I have been an EA in three different industries. I would be trained directly by my BF’s boss, following him to all client meetings and learning the ropes of the business directly from him. Which I figured would be a plus since then I learn exactly what he is wanting from his account managers. I’ve worked in the IT sector before so it shouldn’t be too difficult picking up a high level overview of the technical aspects quickly.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You’ll do well, don’t sweat it! It’s really pretty similar to EA work, the skills and personality required are transferable.

          Instead of taking care of a few executives, you’e taking care of clients. Equally as important, equally as finicky at times. A great addition to your experience portfolio I’d say. If you don’t like it, you have EA work to fall back on as well. So it’s not a “if you leave as an EA, you cannot ever go back!” either. So think of that as a safety net.

  167. Ro*

    Is the percentage of work travel for a role ever negotiable?

    I understand that the numbers posted are often ranges or just best guesses. But if I know that I won’t want a job unless the percentage of travel is cut by around 15% (from 25 to absolutely no more than 10%) should I even apply?

    FWIW- I have years of experience managing remote and dispersed teams for projects. I know on occasion I’d have to travel, but it’s not always necessary/a good use of time and resources.

    1. Buttons*

      Apply and then ask the recruiter if they call. I have interviewed for a couple of jobs where it wasn’t negotiable. And for some jobs that 10% is at a certain time of year, but not all the time. Good luck!
      PS. I won’t travel a lot anymore, either. It used to be fun, but traveling isn’t easy anymore and it sucks it out of me.

      1. Ro*

        Thanks!

        I just wondered- a) how often are companies flexible on this and b) I don’t want to seem like I can’t read the posting or I want to waste anyone’s time. I truly appreciate it when employers list an actual number for the travel (“extensive” means different things to different people). For jobs where they said 50% or higher I thought it was a good thing to just take a pass.

        1. Filosofickle*

          My experience is that most companies are not that flexible on it — if they need a team/role to travel, the team/role needs to travel. However, I’ve seen the number in a listing be highly inaccurate, so there’s a chance what they say isn’t what they actually mean (or need).

        2. Buttons*

          I think the higher ones aren’t as negotiable. If it is 25% or so, I would ask what they mean by that. I have had many tell me it isn’t that high, but they want to make sure people are willing to travel if necessary (I always clarify that as well!)

          1. AnotherAlison*

            They will *say* that, but then they are covered if you’re OOO 1 wk per month or even 3 months of the year. I think you have to look at it from the bigger picture. Are you in the type of career/industry/company that is going to need to travel? Regardless of the current job, it’s probably in your future. If you’re the one person in your group that has travel limitations, that’s going to limit your assignments and advancement.

        3. Kiwiii*

          Travel might mean different things in different postings. I know at old job we advertised 25% travel for regional/day trips (95% of the time no more than 2 hrs one way) and the occasional (maybe one or two days/month) overnight if there were a couple site-visits a ways out that they needed to visit close together. Other places will advertise the same for 1 week-long trip/month. Different amount of time home — different amount of time invested. If you’re up for regional travel but not flights, it’s worth figuring out what they need.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If it’s not a heavy travel role, I would really still try and then ask about their actual travel rates. Percentages are really hard to nail down properly. Lots of time it’s an over estimate.

      I would ask them during the interview to talk more about the travel requirements. Where you’d be going, frequency and such. So you see 15% on the road, you can ask them to define what on the road looks like.

      Maybe it’s all regional travel that won’t bother you. Maybe it’s just tradeshows. Maybe it’s something that role has historically done but could be shifted somewhere else if they really like you for the role otherwise. It’s worth investigating some more if the roles are generally something you are interested in but that’s a bit of an issue.

      Each hiring manager will always react differently to questions but I find this kind of thing very reasonable to discuss and try to negotiate. Since you can see how flexible in general they are! Lots of places are flexible as long as you can say “Do I need to visit HQ or can I skype?”

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Totally agree. I think my role said 15% travel, but I only go to one conference a year. They were thinking about traveling between offices that are just a few miles apart.
        I would apply and then ask what the travel entails.

    3. Kiwiii*

      Honestly, my current position advertised as “travelling required” (and I took it in part because of that because I loved the light travelling I did at my last job) but it turns out, it’s at maximum maybe 2x a year for up to a week. Not anything like I was expecting (and I found out later it was only listed because they’d had a former employee fight site visits tooth and nail and complain the entire time/generally make a fool of themselves).

      It’s definitely something you should try and have a conversation about at the interview stage to see what that travelling looks like/how optional/what the flexibility is like.

    4. Qwerty*

      Not by the amount that you want to cut it. Your proposed change is to reduce the travel time by more than half. To put in perspective, they are saying the role needs about a week per month and your starting point is taking a hard line and no more than a week per quarter. That is vastly different and it would come across as not having paid attention to the job posting. It sounds like you are fundamentally mismatched for this position and should focus on positions with less frequent travel requirements.

  168. Omicron Persei 8*

    So I don’t know how to list a set of design skills on my resume. I’ve moved on from graphic design into an unrelated field but I’ve found having skills in Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator, etc. are still helpful (it’s actually what helped me land a job in my new field as I was put in charge of managing a group of artists) and I still use them for personal hobbies. That said, right now I list all 3 individually under skills but my resume is getting to be too text heavy (I am going to go through and prune it down some) but for now I don’t know if I should continue listing all 3 individually or as one skill set like “graphic design (Photoshop, InDeisgn, Illustrator)”? Combined with other skills, there’s probably 6 skills listed (the other points are related to new field).

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      Either as you wrote or “graphic design (Adobe Creative Cloud)”.
      For my resume, I use the little elemental symbols, but that’s a different kettle of fish.

      1. Omicron Persei 8*

        Ok thanks! Yeah sadly can’t really do the symbols here though I love that idea and wish I could :(

    2. Filosofickle*

      As a former designer, lumping them together as Design or Adobe Creative Suite would be normal. Even on a design resume I probably wouldn’t list them as separate line items — I think of them as a set.

        1. Omicron Persei 8*

          Thanks! I was always afraid someone might think it was something else but good to hear using design suite will be fine :)

          1. Filosofickle*

            To be clear, something like your initial suggestion with the parenthesis might be ideal, combines them for efficiency but still specifies in case people only know the name Photoshop and not CS: “Adobe Creative Suite (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign)” or Visual Design (including Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign)

  169. Queen A*

    Wanted to give a shout-out to my mentee who landed an amazing new job this week. She’s been able to do a ton of learning in the old position, her first big job, but it hasn’t been good for her emotionally and it’s time for her to move on. Boss is handling it pretty well, considering her leaving will be *extremely* difficult for him and his business. He’s unhappy for himself but happy for her and it isn’t going to be a jerk about it. Win!

    I’m so so happy for her. Onward and upward! Run free, you sparkly unicorn!

    (Posting under a different handle for this one. She does read AAM and I don’t really want her knowing my usual name…)

  170. Watermelon M*

    Oh! Another question. I want to get a small gift for my references (either old coworkers or old supervisors who I am on a friendly level with) and mentors who have been so helpful to me in trying to get me out of a toxic job. Everyone is many states away. I thought about getting some of them the Affirmators! Cards (probably for my old coworkers), work edition, because they’re really cute and uplifting, along with a personal thank you card. I don’t know what else I should get them though, because I don’t want to go overboard with the gift giving and make them uncomfortable. Any ideas?

    1. Kiwiii*

      A $5 or $10 giftcard to their favorite coffee place might be nice? like treating them to coffee for their help, except you don’t live nearby.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I had to look those up–they’re cute! If you know the people well enough to know they’d appreciate them, go ahead. If you’re not sure if they would like them or be like “uh…what do I do with these goofy things?” then stick to just thank-you cards. I think a heartfelt thank-you is rewarding enough on its own. That said, those cards do have a good balance of funny and work-appropriate, and don’t come off as being as eye-rolly as some kinds of affirmations things are.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would keep it simple, with the cards and personalized thank-yous. That’s very thoughtful and I’d go for thoughtful and thankful over “how can I get them back for this favor they did for me.” aspect.

      I would steer you away from any size of giftcards. That’s a bit much, even if it’s just $5 to Starbucks.

      These folks are doing you a favor but in the end it’s part of being good colleagues/managers/mentors. We just want to get you into a good job that you thrive in, a thank you goes a long way but please don’t think you need to give us much more than that. It’s not a transaction, it’s our privilege to talk about you and help you on that level. It’s not much extra work in most cases. It’s the least we can do for someone who has been a skilled, good person to work with or to network with, etc.

    5. Reliquary*

      I can see the Affirmators being appropriate gifts for former coworkers and peers, but for former supervisors and mentors, stick to a blank card with a handwritten note inside. I promise, that’s truly appreciated when you’re a mentor or supervisor.

      Remember, gifts should not flow upward!

  171. Entry Level Marcus*

    How would someone go about picking up data analysis and visualization skills outside of college? Is it possible to develop them to the point that they’d be marketable to employers without a degree or on-the-job experience to back it up?

    More details: I’m in the middle of a job search right now, and it has become clear to me that a lot of doors would open up if I had data analysis skills. But I’m out of college, graduate school is not an option in the near-term, and I don’t have any on-the-job experience working with data (aside from very basic data entry). I’ve heard stories of people with no programming experience teaching themselves programming in their free time and then landing jobs in the field, and I’m wondering if that’s possible for data analysis as well.

    I have intermediate Excel skills (vlookup, sumif, pivot tables), have toyed around with very basic SQL and R, and I’ve taken a couple of undergraduate probability and statistics classes (unfortunately, these were very theory-oriented, all the work was done with a pen and paper). But that’s it, and my current experience suggests that these skills alone are not very marketable.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I’m pretty sure there are a lot of options for online courses like this! Try edX, for a start.

      1. Lee*

        Yes! Also check out Coursera, Udemy, and Lynda. For data viz, even just learning the basics of Tableau and/or Power BI might help.

    2. The Dude*

      For the short term, I’d pick one or the other — Data analysis OR data visualization. It’s too many moving parts to try to do both.

      If you’re willing to look at more entry level roles, you can position yourself as that you’re looking to learn about those skills, rather than you already have them. And be prepared to talk in some educated way about them.

      For information visualization, if you have any web skills, you should pick a visualization JavaSript Library and walk through online tutorials until you feel comfortable modifying an example into something original. That would lend substance to your claim that you’re genuinely interested in learning more. Or, a textbook on Amazon would run you less than $40.

      I’m not as familiar with data analysis, but walking through R tutorials until you could modify an example suitably and throw it on GitHub will be helpful.

      I don’t think you’re looking to demonstrate that you’ve mastered the skill. I think you’re looking to credibly demonstrate that you’re worth them investing in to teach the skill to you.

    3. Kiwiii*

      Honestly, one way pick it up might be at a job that lists it as optional or to find a job that works regularly with people who use data analysis. That’s how my entire team has started to pick it up, as we need it on job but it’s easier to teach than the other skills we were bringing. (FWIW, I had comparable Excel skills, no SQL or R, general html just from doing internet stuff, and some very basic “tried to teach myself online but then kind of gave up” CSS skills coming in and was by far the most tech-saavy lol)

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I’d offer to volunteer your time with a local non-profit or charity. The will have low expectations as far as data wrangling and visualization goes and they will be ecstatic to have answers to basic questions like which charity events draw the most donations? Does the bulk of our money come from big donors or little donors?
      It’s not the best route, but you can use multiple email addresses to keep downloading free trials of Tableau. Those should get you through a project or two.
      This will give you an idea if data/data visualization is really something you want to do. And having real questions will guide you to the learning tools you need.
      It will be hard competing for jobs against folks who have data degrees, but you may be able to get a Jr. Analyst role if you gain some solid skills and can build a list of successful projects. Employers are really starting to value analysts that have completed projects and can work on their own, so a solid resume could get you in.

    5. J*

      I would advise to think of a project/question to ask of data, then start troubleshooting it. Depending on the field, there are free data sets everywhere to download, ie government statistics. Tableau is very common data visualization software with a free version you can pull your data set into and try to answer basic questions from it to get your feet wet. Coursera, data camp and codecademy offer more structure courses in bite size pieces working toward application instead of theory.

  172. MYOB or Say Something?*

    A friend of mine is job hunting and keeps getting rejections. She’s applied to similar positions that she had before within the same large university system. She always viewed herself as a strong, hard worker, but during her last month, she probably burned bridges by calling off sick for more than half of the days, an entire week of which was a lie, claiming that her child was sick when the child was not, just because she knew she was leaving and wanted to use up all that leave (ick, I know… I lost a lot of respect for her).

    I think she is probably getting a ton of rejections because they did a reference check with her boss and her boss likely mentioned how unreliable and checked out she was. This does not seem to be something that has occurred to her at all. Should I gently mention that she should consider carefully who she put down as a reference… or just mind my own business here?

    1. Allypopx*

      I think you could mention it. She can take it or leave it, but it’s worth bringing up if it didn’t occur to her.

    2. Holly*

      Why did she leave before she had something new to go to? Maybe something you don’t even know about has something to do with it.

      1. MYOB or Say Something?*

        Her husband made enough to support their family. She said she was just tired of working and wanted to just not have to work for awhile and pursue her art instead. But the art hasn’t been successful over the past two years, so she has to get a job that actually brings in money again now that he dropped to 80% time instead of FT.

        She is getting a bunch of interviews, but no offers, and she frequently complains about how she is perfect for these jobs. I just suspect that something later on in the process is what’s holding her back (like a reference check)… but it could just be that she doesn’t interview well!

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          That, or she’s losing out to people with more recent experience. Two years probably doesn’t seem like a lot of time, but if she’s up against people who have been consistently working in her field while she was away, unless she was a superstar in her field, she’s most likely going to be passed over.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Meh, lots of people view PTO/sick time as something they want to utilize before leaving because it’s a perk they are entitled to. If someone is actually giving her a bad reference because after your notice was given, she started slacking, that’s a pretty weak reason to give a bad reference. If she is otherwise reliable up until that period, you shouldn’t wash away a good reputation because of how they exit unless it’s egregious. She’s detaching and it’s to be expected to a certain level. Only you/friends know that she lied about needing time off for a sick kid, the person giving a reference shouldn’t know that or speculate if she’s been otherwise a good worker.

      What’s more likely is that academia seems to be a hard place to land positions. Lots of competition for roles. So she’s just not getting called in because her resume isn’t hitting the right spots compared to the other applications. If she hasn’t been in the system very long, she’s getting rejected for people with more experience, more education and so on.

      I would just stay out of it, you don’t know enough here and it’s all speculations. So just let her do her and lay in the bed she makes.

      1. MYOB or Say Something?*

        That’s the thing, though. She is getting called in for a lot of interviews, but it’s just all rejections after that. I suppose it could be that she doesn’t interview as well as she thinks she does (she says the interviews go very well) as opposed to a bad reference.

        She called out for a week for the “sick kid” a few weeks prior to giving notice, then went on a two-week vacation, and then gave notice the day she returned from vacation. Only a two-week notice period was required, but she continued to call out several days during that notice period. I assumed an employer wouldn’t look favorably on that type of behavior especially because she only had worked there for a little over a year, but maybe it doesn’t matter. I guess I’m just tired of hearing her complain about how she’s not getting offers for jobs she would be perfect for.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          Eh, all the other people who interviewed for the job and didn’t get it are probably thinking the same thing. If it’s the references there’s nothing to be done. If I were hiring I’d call her last boss whether they were listed as a reference or not.

          You can set your own boundaries about how much complaining you want to hear without trying to solve her problem.

    4. LilySparrow*

      Don’t bring it up out of the blue, but if she’s venting about the rejections, I think you certainly have leeway to ask if Boss is listed as a reference, and suggest that it might be doing her a disservice.

      Of course, prospective employers might be contacting former managers whether she listed them or not – in which case it might be a good idea to apply outside the system, where Boss’s opinion might count for less, or people might be less likely to talk with Boss.

  173. Gatomon*

    Looking for recommendations on noise-canceling headphones for the workplace! I’d prefer the earbud style because I wear glasses, but I’m open to all options that are at a reasonable price (<$200) since this will come from my own pocket. Bluetooth also preferred, but I can use an adapter with my phone if needed.

    My company has decided against building a new corporate headquarters due to the cost, so we're going to be crammed like sardines for the forseeable future. I'm trapped with the hallway to the conference room behind me and toilets next to me, so I get a lot of noise bleed from the conference room and general hallway chatter that I have no way to block out as-is. My job just requires focus at times and I'm finding the older I get, the harder it is for me to tune all that out when it's coming from so many different directions.

    1. Hannah Banana*

      Hifiman is my favorite brand. My husband is a sound designer and composer for video games (coolest job ever..) and is a headphone/earphone fanatic. He bought some $80 Hifiman ear buds for me and they are fantastic. Not only do they do great a noise cancelling (with music on I legit don’t hear anything!) but they are comfortable and fit well. I feel like my ear holes are larger than average and the ear buds come with different size bud things.

      My original pair crapped out because I took poor care of them (literally slung them around in my purse without properly putting them away, woops) and I bought their 400 pair recently and they are better than the original ones. This pair is 80 bucks on their website :)

    2. Amethystmoon*

      I got the $40 pair from Amazon that were labeled Monodeal. I have a co-worker who clears her throat constantly, and they do block it out, but you have to be listening to something that has constant music or sound.

      1. Gatomon*

        Oh that would drive me up a wall for sure. Music seems to help me concentrate, so that won’t be an issue. Thanks!

    3. LilySparrow*

      On first glance, I read that as getting “nose bleeds” from the constant chatter – which seemed like an excellent metaphor for that level of annoyance!

  174. TechWorker*

    My direct report has been trying to complete a task for around 3 weeks, but it’s still not done. In an ideal world, this task would take 2-3 days (I mean in an *actually* ideal world less, but with our current setup that would be best case). Multiple things outside of their control have been hit – so they’ve ended up going onto other tasks and not getting back to this one. I feel like I’ve been relatively clear that it should be a priority and that I’ve also had to suggest workarounds for some of the problems that should have been more obvious, but I’m unsure whether I need to raise this as a concern. I *think* that if it was their top priority and they’d put a bit more effort into overcoming problems it would have been done by now, but also when I ask about it they do sound reasonable and like it was a priority (just with the occasional case where I had to prod to try something different to keep it going). I think it could have gone more smoothly, but I don’t want to be the manager who assumes everything is easy when actually maybe they *have* been prioritising and I’ve misunderstood the scope of the problems hit. Advice as to how/whether I should have this conversation welcome!

    1. Kiwiii*

      Can you stress that it needs to happen next? Or that you need it by DATE? Or that they should only do it and X task until it’s done? Sometimes more concrete expectations will help over “prioritize” when a report feels like they have many tasks that they can/should be doing ASAP (even if you feel like you’ve made it clear that This is the One).

    2. A Marketing Director*

      > I feel like I’ve been relatively clear that it should be a priority

      Sounds like you haven’t actually been clear. Your comment sounds wishy-washy and doubtful, so I wonder if that’s coming across in your communication with your direct report.

      It sounds like you’re asking rather than telling.

      I’d be very direct and say “This needs to happen in this amount of time. What needs to change in order for that to happen?”

      1. TechWorker*

        Yeah I can work on my priority setting – but the fact is that a lot of it *is* out of their control. So saying ‘it must be done by x date’ is totally unreasonable because if event x or y happens, it’s not achievable. I guess the problem is more that once the effects of event x are over, it’s then taking 1-2 days for them to realise that and pivot back, vs them checking constantly when they can continue (which at the moment I’m effectively doing, which is suboptimal).

        1. CM*

          I’m confused about the checking piece and the not realizing they can re-focus on that task.

          Why does it take 1-2 days to realize that events X and Y are over?

          1. TechWorker*

            Because it’s a ridiculous set up where there’s not always a notification. The only way to find out if the task can be completed is to try it and see if you get an error back. – or for someone else to have tried it and found it’s now ok to go ahead. 2 days is not reasonable, but basically, the thing that she’s blocked on is being done by a group of people in a different site in a different timezone, who sometimes but not always send out a mail when they’re done. (And when they do send a mail it’s the sort of mail that’s easily missed because it’s sent to hundreds of people and there’s a lot of traffic on that alias).

            Is this a ridiculous process? Yes. But it’s far from all my reports fault (and way out of my control too).

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Are other, louder, people demanding your report’s time? I used to have issues where my boss would say a task was my priority, but then someone would come around demanding that something be done by noon, or a critical check had to get out the door before the end of the day, and then someone would come by shouting about the schedule being wrong and I had to fix it right now.
      In my own mind, I was prioritizing the critical tasks but my boss would be furious that I didn’t finish his non-time sensitive task. In his mind, the team schedule could have been sent out wrong, and the rent check could have been late because paying a late fee was okay. It boggled my brains.

      1. TechWorker*

        No, the other tasks they have are also time-sensitive, but with deadlines a few weeks away. (And work basically comes through me, so I would know if there were other more urgent stuff being asked for!). Its also the case that the other tasks are more interesting, so I suspect some of it is just getting caught up in a more interesting task and not checking back whether the original task is unblocked or not. I’m a bit in two minds though because it *is* the case that some folk find it difficult to focus on multiple tasks at once – so potentially this persons limit for ‘how often they can check and not be distracted for the secondary task’ is lower than mine would be. (I’ve noticed previously that my other report gets quite caught up on ‘but which task should I do *first*?’ when I’m a bit like ‘they both need doing, I don’t care as long as it gets done’ – but that’s assuming you would start one, then context switch to the other when there’s 10 minutes of downtime, etc. I appreciate context switching is more offputting for some people than it is others.

        1. valentine*

          Tell them to double-check and to filter for notifications and to test daily or twice daily. But if you need moretests or someone who can more easily work around them, it’s fine if this isn’t that person. But stop doing the tests. Set benchmarks for “One week from the next greenlight, it needs to be x% done,” etc.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      It sounds like you could sit down with her and go over things. Say that in an ideal world this would take 2-3 days but there’s a lot beyond her control. There’s a lot that’s in her control, though, so the two of you can go through this and figure out how she can keep this task on the front burner. Things like checking every day, coming to you to brainstorm to figure out workarounds, etc. This way you can convey urgency and still express understanding. If she can only control 5% of the progress on this project, she needs to own the crap out of that 5%, and she may not understand that.

  175. Anonnish*

    I don’t know if this is an ethical, strategic, or what else question.

    My manager is leaving. But she hasn’t found a new job yet so she hasn’t given her notice. If she leaves, I’m in a great position to negotiate for her job, and a higher salary than she is getting.

    I’m worried I might get a promotion offer before she leaves. If that happens I’m a little stuck on what to do. Right now I’m part time, to accommodate my school schedule. I know they want me to go full time, but I also know how much my manager makes and I wouldn’t accept that salary or below it, I’d be looking for at least 15% more. The job doesn’t come with benefits or other incentives, to rearrange my schedule or commit to a consistent 40 hours a week that’s what I’d need to get. Do I negotiate for more than my manager is making? Do I turn it down and bring it up again after she leaves? Does that burn my bridge? She’s a friend and I’m not trying to leap frog over her but she could be making a lot more if she had advocated for herself better and I’m not willing to tie my pay scale to the fact she hasn’t.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can always ask for more. However I wouldn’t assume she could be making more from them if she asked, since you don’t necessarily know that unless you’re in a position to know a lot about their pay structure. Lots of places simply pay you what they pay you, with a little wiggle room if you ask. But 15% is a hefty amount but not absurd.

      I would wait until you get to the stage where they’re talking about the promotion and not the speculation or bringing it up yourself. If they ask you to apply for the position, you may wish to mention that you’ll apply for it and talk about it but would be looking for X rate. I wouldn’t even let on that you know how much the role pays and just act like that’s just the rate that you’ll accept, take it or leave it.

      I think you’re pretty far ahead of yourself here but it’s good to think about the possibility and have your number in mind!

      Rarely when someone leaves does a company want to pay more than a seasoned manager/individual contributor was making to replace them, unless they were grossly underpaid and they have no luck at all hiring someone else on. When someone leaves, part of how you recoup your recruitment costs overall is bringing someone in at lower salary range than the departing person unless they are extremely experienced above and beyond. Since I don’t know if you have management experience here to also draw on, you only have the “I’ve been with the company for X long in a PT role” to use and that’s good stuff but not necessarily “pay me more than the departing manager” good. It’s always worth a shot since you know you don’t want the job unless they pay you what you know the position is worth.

      1. Anonnish*

        She is grossly underpaid. She was hired as her first job out of grad school and her pay scale hasn’t kept up with her experience as she’s gone on. I have significantly more management experience than she does and am more qualified that she was at the time she was offered the rate she’s getting, but I do think there will be a “fairness” angle.

        This is a small place, I do know the pay scales and the general processes. I also know they really want to move towards bonuses over raises so the rate I get brought in at will matter a lot.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Barf bonuses over raises. They are probably not very likely to give you much in the end if that’s their mentality. They’re going to play a “We can’t do 15% but you’ll be eligible for bonuses!” card and really deep dive into that “BONUSES ARE GREAT! And then your earning potential is limitless!!!!!!!!!!”

          That does make sense that it’s her first job and you have more experience, so I think it’s very reasonable to ask for more than she was making for sure then.

          What worries me here though is that the pay scale hasn’t kept up with her…so if you do get that 15% extra, are you prepared to be in the same boat and also keep fighting every so often for more? It sounds so exhausting. I could never handle this kind of structure myself but I’m finicky and picky AF in my old age.

        2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

          I worked somewhere that did this. “Bonuses over raises.”

          Well, if you paid, say, $10,000 and you get a 3% bonus, that’s $300. But next year, your base pay is still $10,000. Whereas if you got a raise, your base pay would be $10,300, and if you got a 3% raise on top of that, you’d make an extra $9.

          They had people who were in the same position, with the same pay, for ten years.

    2. Catsaber*

      I think if you are offered a promotion/fulltime job before she leaves, just negotiate the salary you need, regardless of anything else.

      If she leaves and her job is opened, apply, and then negotiate whatever salary you feel is fair for that position.

      Treat the two jobs as separate things. Definitely negotiate for more than she is making – it doesn’t really matter what she was making, the point is that YOU need $X amount for the job to be worth your while.

      I don’t think it’s burning any bridge. From what it sounds like, you might be getting promoted soon, and then it’s anyone’s guess as to when your manager will leave (what if she doesn’t leave for 6 months? a year? 2 years?). Just take each step one at a time.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Her salary is irrelevant, and your friendship with her is irrelevant. Why do you think it would be a bad thing to make more than her? Why is “leap frogging over her” even an issue? Ask for what the job is worth, and don’t take it if they won’t make it worth the trouble.

  176. Boom*

    My coworker has an interesting tactic of trying to get out of work. He just says he doesn’t know how to do the thing. Like, if he is asked to make copies, he’ll say, “Oh, I don’t know how to use the copier.” Or, if you ask him to transfer a phone call, he’ll say, “I don’t know how to do that.” And he doesn’t even ask for anyone to teach him, just expects that by saying he ‘doesn’t know’ that the boss will just assign it to someone capable. Which is what usually happens.

    Today, however, was gold. After a year of being here, he asked us what the password is for his voicemail. My other coworker said she gave him the password MONTHS ago, and then…silence. Meaning, this poor guy really hasn’t checked his voicemail for months, if ever. We’re all just baffled.

    1. Catsaber*

      My former department had a manager like that – he was the TRAINING manager. His entire job was training people on the software system we supported. He was constantly saying “I don’t know, can you do it? You’re so much better! I’ll just mess it up.” And it was pretty much only to women. If you told him “no” often enough, he’d get the message and leave you alone, but it was soooo frustrating to watch him pull that shit, especially with new hires. Also he would say those things in a baby talk voice. *shudder*

      When he was training people, he actually did a pretty good job, but he really didn’t want to do any other part of his job besides teaching. Which would be fine if he was just direct about it and said, “I’m not doing this, I’m hiring an assistant to do that all.” But the feigned ignorance and baby talk was just maddening.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      When I was an admin, my “manager” admin would always pull this. She refused to learn MSWord and kept using …geez, I don’t even remember what came before Word, it was some word processing software. So she literally got out of typing anything.
      She would use her typewriter to fill in printed forms instead of using Acrobat to fill in an electronic form. This was a while back, but not THAT long ago. I wonder what people thought when they received a mailed in form that was filled in using a typewriter!

      1. Jamie*

        Was it WANG? Please tell me it was WANG. And please tell me I’m not the only person who remembers WANG?

    3. Natalie*

      This tactic is super helpful for things that aren’t actually your job, FWIW. When I worked in an office where any female staff were routinely confused with general assistants, I did this all the time. Nope, can’t show you how to use the fax machine since I don’t know how to use it. I would have just googled it, and you can too!

      1. Boom*

        Totally agree! It’s a great tactic in the face of sexist requests. But really sucks when it’s just a guy slacking.

    4. !*

      So the BOSS asks him to do something, he responds that he doesn’t know how, and the Boss just asks someone else to do it? That is poor management with a capital POOR MANAGEMENT.

      1. Boom*

        Yes, because my boss’s MO isn’t really good management techniques, he just wants the thing done. To him, speed is key. He doesn’t really seem to realize the harm it does long-term.

        1. valentine*

          The voicemail thing could just lead to the boss chastising everyone for not checking the guy’s voicemail.

          I was hoping the response was going to be,”I don’t know your password.”

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Oh, I feel this so hard! I know someone like this. And it’s really annoying, because the rest of us don’t get to use that excuse. If I ever said to my boss, “Oh, I don’t know how to do that,” he would give me a weird look and tell me to learn how, and quickly. I hate it when people get away with this kind of crap.

      I used to have a department assistant who refused to learn anything new, so my boss was doing his own expenses, among other things, because we had some new systems and she just wouldn’t do it. That boss was way too much of a pushover.

  177. Anonymouse*

    I am taking four days off next week for personal reasons. I have more than one year’s vacation stored up, and have not taken four days off in a row in more than a year. I haven’t taken more than 1 day off in a row since March because I’ve been “reprioritized” from crisis to crisis, and now I’m taking time off during the latest crisis.

    My boss looks deflated, as if I punched his kitten. His boss openly (“jokingly”) berated him in front of me, and others, for “letting me take vacation”.

    I’m the group’s top performer in a very specialized field but am underpaid and under-titled. Additionally, most of my workgroup is single or freshly married 20-somethings shortly out of grad school, who can tolerate getting worked like dogs and being told it’s “fun” and “team building.” I am middle aged with children and don’t center my social life around my work.

    F this noise.

    1. Auntie Social*

      How is your boss going to realize that you make his work life so wonderful, if you’re always there? Better for him and your group to appreciate you if you’re not in your chair every day. Nothing like four days off to make them realize. And maybe you can talk about your compensation when you get back. I promise you, it will be a hot mess!!

    2. Lime Lehmer*

      “I’m the group’s top performer in a very specialized field but am underpaid and under-titled.”
      Is it time to look elsewhere, or push for a raise?

      1. Anonymouse*

        I am doing both. But I am limited to staying in this metro area and there just aren’t that many companies that are looking for Teapot Nanotechnologists. Plenty of other companies – elsewhere – looking though.

        1. valentine*

          Plenty of other companies – elsewhere – looking though.
          If you choose this, prioritizing your job, aren’t there ways for your family to be happy overall (including the domino effect of you being happier), if less happy in certain areas, versus you being so unhappy because work has such a massive impact?

    3. Buttons*

      Good for you! For the first time in my current job, I took 2 weeks off. I have never even taken a full week off at once before this! It was amazing, and nothing fell apart, no one died. I geared my self up for it, last year every other week I would take Friday off. The WHOLE day. It is how I used up all my banked PTO. It also got people used to me not being available 24/7 for them.
      Have a great few days off!!

    4. Mazzy*

      WTF. Can you push back and talk to your boss and tell him you want him to cut this out with the bigger boss? Or find out exactly what their expectations are for long term employees and see if they actually say “never takes off, gets burnt out,” or if they just never thought about it?

      1. Anonymouse*

        This Company is very youth oriented and has a pattern of working fresh grads to death while encouraging a college feel, long hours are fine when you’re with your friends! Then they quit after a few years. Not a way to keep people long term, but that is hardly the goal anyways

  178. Fridays*

    Do you guys have any low mental-load, Friday-afternoon, future-efficiency types of tasks you like doing? Recently I’ve been making Outlook rules, setting things up to automatically sort, color code, etc. Before that, I designed a few Word templates for documents I frequently put together. I also like to go through my documents and sort/rename/trash files so that things are well organized and easy to find. Any other tasks like this that you guys get up to when you need a break but still want to feel productive?

    1. Pam*

      I have a few student review lists- ‘hey, let’s check the people who left without graduating’- for my Friday/term break projects.

  179. Yikes Bikes*

    I work in a fairly niche part of my larger industry. I recently got a message from one of my former professors that one of her students is interested in the specific kind of work I’m doing and she asked if it was OK to give her student my contact information. I said “yes” and her student emailed me a few days later. We emailed back and forth and I said that it might be easier if he were to come in to our office so that we could do an informational interview and he could see what we do.

    The student came in about a week later. My boss and I set aside an hour to talk with him. First off, the student came in wearing so much cologne that we could taste it in the air. It was hard to breathe in our conference room! He then kept interrupting over and over while we were trying to explain about how our work is different from what you might see in the general industry.

    When I took him on a tour of our office (we are in a fairly large space) he insulted other people’s work and ideation hanging on the wall, pushed really hard for us to give him a job or internship, and treated me dismissively (I’m a cis woman) until he learned I have a deciding vote in job candidates with our company. All in all, the entire experience left me with a bad taste (literally!) and I feel like this student might be setting himself up for struggles in finding a job if his behavior is similar during other informational interviews or networking events. He is from another country so I suspect some of this is over-eagerness or cultural differences.

    I’ve been thinking about emailing my professor and kindly telling her about the experience. Maybe she could talk to her students in general and explain informational interview etiquette or something? Part of me says this is none of my business and the student is an adult. The other part of me feels that it’s my job to help mentor people who are truly trying to learn. What do you think?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’d let the professor know, just in case she wants to send another student your way, then she can coach them on the etiquette of visiting an office and having a professional discussion.

      1. Yikes Bikes*

        Yeah, I think you’re right. I don’t want her to feel bad in any way but it seems like something that could be easily plugged in to the lesson for the day.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I agree with AndersonDarling. And I would be very, very clear and direct with your former professor on which behaviors and speech of the interviewee’s seemed difficult to deal with. You might even consider laying it out as a list. I wouldn’t worry about being too blunt, b/c I’m assuming your former professor will know how to kindly translate your advice to her students in a way that will help them really hear it.

  180. bowser*

    We used to have an employee of the quarter program that was randomly selected. That person would get a week, all paid vacation to a city of their choice if it was within the budget. Recently, it was changed to a surprise event where your desk gets decorated, you get a trophy (that will be passed on to the next winner), you get to take a picture with the CEO, and you get confetti thrown at you.

    I think this stinks and I’d literally rather have nothing than this. What about you guys? Am I being anti-fun?

    1. merp*

      That… really sucks. They couldn’t even give you some time off? Some change a little less drastic? I’d be frustrated too.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yeah, if they’re ending the way the program was run because of financial issues, they should rethink it. Giving people an extra week of PTO for doing stellar work is the best incentive to continue to get stellar work back from employees. They could have just done away with the part of them paying for the person’s trip.

    2. Lime Lehmer*

      The difference is startling.
      Regardless, I would never want a trophy or for confetti to be thrown at me at work

    3. Jamie*

      You are being pro-fun because what you’re describing is anti-fun. A pic with the CEO?

      Unless the CEO is a corporeal ghost of JD Salinger that’s worse than nothing. Why can’t they at least get a day or two off?

    4. Cranky Neighbot*

      Urgh. That would sound pretty silly but okay to me — if it weren’t a replacement for a program that included a week-long vacation!

    5. Buttons*

      There is literally nothing between paid vacation trip to a temporary trophy and a photo with the CEO? That is ridiculous. I am sure they had to cut back, because a paid vacation is a pretty big expense. But c’mon. Give people the extra PTO!
      Also, if they think getting a photo with the CEO is a big deal then they think a lot of themselves and must be seen as not approachable. My company is a multi-billion dollar company, and if the CEO isn’t traveling he takes lunch every day in the cafeteria and randomly asks if he can join a table, and talks to everyone. Just 2 weeks ago he was playing laser tag on the lawn with a bunch of our interns. And this isn’t a start up company, he is in his late 50s.

    6. Yearly Wall Calendar*

      I’m having trouble with the idea of a randomly selected employee of the month. What’s the point? What a huge difference in rewards, though!

      1. TechWorker*

        Same – this is weird, isn’t employee of the month usually like a award for good performance or customer service, not just a random selection?

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Ah yeah, I forgot about that. Maybe that’s something they should change, too, and only accept nominations from management to award people for performance-based reasons.

    7. Vicky Austin*

      Yeah, that’s pretty bad. All you get out of it is having to clean up confetti, take the decorations down front your desk, and find room on your desk for the trophy and the photo of you with the CEO. I agree with the others who said that a paid week off would be a better idea.

    8. CM*

      LMFAO. A picture with the CEO.

      Why can’t they just let the person have an extra week of vacation, if they can’t afford to fund a whole trip anymore?

    9. Anonymouse for this*

      Sheesh – if they can’t afford to pay for the vacation they could at least give the employee the vacation time to do what they want with. Or dinner for two or something rather than go right to bargain basement of photo op at desk and getting sprayed with confetti.

      At old job we had a sales event every year for the highest performers – it was called The Diamond Club. They had one week Caribbean holiday, 5 star resort, bring spouse/significant other – everything comped, basically just turn up and have fun. Company went through some restructuring but the sales team were still bringing in the big numbers. The following year the sales event was a weekend in NY (majority of the sales team are Eastern Region and the head office is in NJ so they’d been to NY plenty of times), no spouses and the group went to a broadway show and dinner …….. the sales team renamed it the Cubic Zirconia club.

  181. AnonPi*

    So I applied to be the middle manager of our department and received a notice that I’ll be interviewed, and so did one of my coworkers. I found out today that our head manager already discussed the interview process with my coworker and how to prepare for it. I knew going in this may be a bit of a long shot/stretch position, but finding out that essentially my head manager is giving my coworker an advantage, makes me just want to withdraw from the whole thing. While I don’t know specifics (coworker mentioned only a bit of what they were told), I’ve seen the interview process for these types of positions before and they’re dreadful, and why put myself through that if I don’t really have a chance which is what this feels like. I was so excited to get the interview notice, and now I just feel suckerpunched.

    1. Jamie*

      You were selected to be interviewed, that’s a good thing. And even if your boss is in your co-workers corner, that doesn’t mean everyone else with a voice in that will be.

      I get that it sucks to feel someone has an edge, but that can always be the case and you don’t know. It’s a chance to meet with decision makers in a formal process and sell yourself. So no matter how the promotion goes you can be on the radar for the next great, maybe better, thing.

    2. Just Elle*

      I wouldn’t read too much into it. You don’t know what actually happened between head manager and coworker. Maybe the coworker dragged the advice out of the manager. Maybe the manager thought the coworker needed more polishing than you, and was trying to even the playing field. Maybe the coworker is just trying to sew the seeds of doubt.

    3. Buttons*

      Don’t read too much into it. Maybe the coworker is exaggerating. You were selected to interview for a reason! Go in super prepared! :) Good luck and let us know what happens!

    4. AnonPi*

      Thanks everyone. The whole situation is not the best to begin with, and I’ve been looking for work elsewhere for awhile already because of it. When this position opened up I figured if I’m stuck here then I may as well give this a shot – and I really would like the opportunity to make it work. But I’ve been through 3 middle managers in 4 years, and my head manager is known for being difficult and driving people off (HR got involved in the last one). I’ve just made this job sound like a bad idea haven’t I? lol But it really would be a great opportunity even if it only lasted a few years, it’d be very valuable experience and I should get a ton of networking out of it. And paying twice my current salary would be a huge help. All I can do is try my best at this point. Head manger makes the final decision, and she’s gone against the panel recommendations before so we’ll see what happens. Interviews are supposed to be in November so I have at least two weeks to prepare.

    5. Pineapple Incident*

      I would stick with it. If you have a good relationship with your manager, ask if they can give you any context on the hiring process, independent of what you know about the coworker (I wouldn’t mention that).

  182. Sled dog mama*

    My crappy manager is officially gone! His last day was last Friday and he has not been seen since!
    Now we can get a decent manager.

  183. Anonymous for this one*

    My coworker/friend’s having a problem (being misgendered by people they’re out to). I asked if I could correct people and they said no, they want to handle it.

    So I’m leaving the issue alone but it’s pretty frustrating. If people can remember my cats’ genders – not even remember that I have two cats, that their names are Cat A and Cat B, but their completely irrelevant genders – they can manage this, right? They can get it right for a person they know, see every day, and have a chance to talk with literally every time this happens?

    (Just to be clear: I am going to continue following the directions that I asked my coworker for!)

    1. Just Elle*

      People suck.
      I did want to offer one counterpoint here. We had to rename my puppy, because her name was too close to my other dog’s and they couldn’t tell them apart. She was only Alice to me for 2 weeks. She’s been Mia for 4. And yet, every single day I screw it up at least once. Its insane. And I actually had this moment yesterday where I paused and thought “I’m so glad she’s a dog, and not a human who has a lot of emotional pressure behind being recognized by her new name.”
      So, all I’m saying is, don’t automatically jump to assuming they are doing it maliciously unless you have other evidence to suggest that. They could just genuinely have a really hard-to-break habit of using the old gender. Should they work really, really hard to break the habit because they know its important? Yes. But. They might require a few reminders, even ones as simple as emphasizing the THEM (or whatever the correct pronoun is) when you refer to them after they’ve been misgendered.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A lot of people are black and white when it comes to gender still and really grapple with getting genders correct. When you look at a cat, you say “Hey owner of cat, is this a girl or a boy kitty?” “It’s a boy, his name is Bruce.” That sticks in their mind.

      However with our preconceived ideas in our heads about human genders, lots more come into play. They see someone who “looks” female to them and they suddenly think “duh, girl, no need to ask, just assume.”

      Also things are habits. So if someone comes out after having known people for awhile, it’s hard to retrain your mind to go from “This is Bob, my male coworker.” to “This is formally Bob, now Stella, my woman coworker.” The rewiring aspect is what makes many people stumble. We’re creatures of habit and of muscle memory in a lot of ways. We’re also easily confused and conflicted with our emotions that are involved.

      Yes there are the malicious people who go out of their way to be bigoted and gross. That’s really a fraction of the population but they stand out the most. Then there’s the ones who struggle to rewire even though they really do “Mean well” and aren’t being jerks, just unable to relearn very quickly or well [lots of people are like this, this is the “old dogs can’t learn new tricks” crowd.]

      It’s frustrating AF as people who understand and can be fluid with this kind of thing. But in reality, it’s just being humans. It’ll be great if one day we get to the point we all are on the same page but it’s like reading. Some are slow readers, some are fast readers, some can’t read at all. So getting to the same page is going to take a lot of time and effort and patience on all our parts.

      1. Anonymous for this one*

        I understand that; I actually grew up in a very bigoted place/time and it’s been a learning process for 10+ years.

        I brought up the example of my cats because remembering their gender is pointless and unintuitive, yet people pull it off. Surely they could put forth at least as much effort for a colleague?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I understand, we have literally been disowning family members for my entire life due to their racism issues specifically.

          But I have also had very respectful, very loving and accepting parents who struggle with things like gender identity since it’s so brand new to them. My mom thankfully just asks me questions and tries her damnedest every time but still trips up on genders and pronouns. This is a woman who grew up around the LGBTQ community in the 70s. She really does care but this is a brand-new world transformation even to seasoned community members and allies.

          Honestly, most people aren’t that invested in their coworkers. Even if they like them enough, it’s not worth it to retrain your mind. It’s annoying but humans are incredibly self centered. They like you but they don’t care enough to bother to retrain themselves.

          I have people who still try to fight me about Chik-Fil-A support when we can kick them over the causes they “support” and where that money they just spent on a dumb chicken sandwich just went. You just paid for a chicken sandwich covered in the blood of a child who was sent to conversation therapy. Still…yum chicken. People dude. People. Self absorbed nonsense.

    3. Close Bracket*

      I heard a good analogy for this recently. It’s like when someone gets married and they change their name. You know they have a new name, but it takes a while to get used to saying it. So yes, people can remember your cats’ names, but they will still have trouble remembering to use a newly married coworker’s new name.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I mean, my mom keeps calling her own male dog “she” because her previous dogs were female, so I can believe it’s more habit than malice. (And yes, laziness and reluctance to accept change, on your coworkers’ parts.) I’d keep doing what you’re doing, set a good example, and politely correct your coworkers as needed.

  184. The Babiest Babyface*

    Does anyone have any tips on dealing with burnout?
    I’m having a real time of it right now. It was this time three years ago when my mom got her brain cancer diagnosis, as well as this time a year ago that we realized she was going really downhill really quickly. So like, I’m dealing with that, as well as having a full courseload, being on a student government committee which apparently requires seventeen GroupMe notifications a minute, being a club president, and being part of a special club which I have to keep secret from every person who isn’t in it. The dean (the Dean? Does this position need to be capitalized?) wants me to drop one of my classes, which would lead to a significant amount of instant relief, but the specific class she wants me to drop is a graduation requirement that I worry I might not have time for later on. I really want to give up my presidency, but there’s so much out of order and I don’t want to put anyone in a position of being responsible for my mess. I can’t talk to any of my friends about this because they’re all dealing with their own problems and I think mine are too big to handle.

    1. Just Elle*

      Prioritize and execute. Doing a few things well is better than trying to do everything and ending up being 20% at everything. Your priority is classes. The rest really, honestly, will not matter after you graduate. I swear. So what brings you the least joy? Dump it! Its time to be on team you. Everyone else will get over it but no one else will advocate for you.
      Its better to let others be in charge of your mess now, than to keep trying and failing to clean it up so no one else gets a chance to. I promise. None of this is as big and terrible and important as it feels right now to sleep-deprived-exhausted-overwhelmed you. Dump something, and you will see that the world keeps turning. Get some sleep. Get up, see that the world is still still turning. Accomplish something. If it still feels overwhelming, dump some more. Use this as a really important life lesson in learning to say no.
      If you give up your Presidency, people might be sad for, like, a month. If you burn yourself out, the fallout will be much, much more significant.
      I know you think that you owe it to everyone to keep trying to hold it all together for them. But heres the reality: you literally cannot do that. Its not a try harder thing. Its not an if I were stronger thing. Its a the-laws-of-physics-show-that-this-is-too-much-for-one-human thing. And once you accept that doing everything isnt an option, it makes it so much easier to give up something.

    2. J*

      If you can identify you want to give up the presidency, I agree that you should. Its thoughtful to be concerned about causing someone else trouble, but I think your reasons are legitimate and it may be a person with more time will take on the role.

    3. AnonPi*

      Make a transition plan and hand over the presidency. Your coursework should take priority. I think its natural to feel some guilt giving something like that over to someone else to deal with, but these things happen.

    4. LGC*

      Oh my gosh. I want to give you ALL THE JEDI HUGS right now.

      So, a few bits of advice:

      1) If an organization is going to fall apart without you, it’s probably doomed anyway.
      2) EVERYONE has their own problems.
      3) Sometimes things aren’t emergencies.

      This is all to say – if you want to resign your presidency, you should! You’ll probably feel guilty about it. They’re almost certainly not going to be as bad off without you as you think they’ll be.

      Anyway, in order:

      1) One thing I’ve learned is that functional (and even dysfunctional) organizations can usually survive a high level departure. And if an organization collapses because of a single departure, there’s almost always several other things that are the real cause of the collapse.

      That’s to say – if the club falls apart because you resigned, it’s almost certainly not just because you resigned.

      2) It sounds like you don’t want to burden your friends with your problems because THEY have their own problems. But…that’s just a part of life. Just because people have issues doesn’t mean they can’t make room to hear you out – and you’re going through a lot as well!

      It does feel like “burdening” someone if you know about their issues. But literally everyone has their issues – you, your friends, your family, your dean…so that would mean that if you didn’t want to be a burden, you could never talk about anything you’re struggling with. And that’s silly, in my opinion.

      3) it also sounds like you’re overwhelmed by the student government notifications. I’m guessing that most of them aren’t that urgent, so you can definitely make them less prominent or turn them off! Just remember to check them every so often.

      Good luck with everything! I hope you can step back a bit – and I think your college career will work out.

      Finally, I’m really sorry about your mom.

    5. Quandong*

      My advice is to take away the most stressful responsibility (the presidency) and consider also stepping down from the committee (sounds like the incessant notifications are increasing your stress levels).

      Also, please be as kind to yourself as possible given the anniversary of your mother’s diagnosis and decline. Do you have access to any counselling support at your institution? I would prioritize getting support over continuing with the committee and presidency if at all possible. I hope you get some relief very soon.

  185. Kramerica Industries*

    I was just in a team meeting where my manager decided to call some of our colleagues “snowflakes”. When asked what this meant, she said that it’s a term for people who like to whine a lot. Should I call this out? To me, it’s a term that can be used to dismiss marginalized groups and I think it’s inappropriate, especially in the workplace. I think she genuinely thinks this is a mainstream term and not used as a weapon against “political correctness”. Or is this not a hill to die on/am I wrong about my view of the term?

    1. Mill Miker*

      I’ve never heard “snowflake” used in any kind of remotely respectful way. It’s inherently dismissive.

      That said, my hackles also go up a manager who talks about their employees “whine[ing] too much” even if they’re not using a loaded term to describe it.

    2. Vicky Austin*

      You are not wrong. That term is offensive. It was coined by Trump voters after the 2016 election as a pejorative term for Clinton voters who were upset about the election results. It in particular is often used against women, Latinx and other people of color, immigrants, people with disabilities, Muslims, Jews, and other people who had legitimate reasons to be concerned about how the Trump presidency would negatively impact them.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I’m pretty sure snowflake and special snowflake were coined long before 2016. Not that Trump and his ilk don’t use it, but the term existed well before then.

        It’s an insult for sure and the boss should not be using it. My image of a special snowflake is a rich white child who been protected from the world by their parents and their parent’s wealth and privilege.

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I heard that term well before 2016, generally in context of professors complaining about students online. It was a rude term then too, but it’s not something that appeared from nowhere during the previous US presidential election.

    4. Vicky Austin*

      It is offensive. It was coined by supporters of the current President after the 2016 election, as a pejorative term for people who didn’t vote for him and were upset about the results.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        It was used before that, but it became politicized after the election. And yes, it is pejorative.

      2. Mazzy*

        Definitely not, it was used a couple of years before that to describe a certain type of person who has trouble “adulting.”

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’s been used for at least a decade to dismiss people as “they think they’re so special, boohoo their tears, I will drink them.”

        They used to use it all the time on LiveJournal before the politicians decided to snatch it up.

        It is derogatory and awful, it shouldn’t used used to describe anyone. Ever.

    5. Anon Librarian*

      You could google the term and send her the most informative link you can find – something covering different definitions.

      1. Reba*

        Yes, I think you can tell her, “I know you don’t mean this, but you may not be aware that the term is widely used in political discussions and it is very pejorative! It would give some people the impression that you have contempt for our colleagues. Just wanted to let you know how it could come across.”

  186. Perpetually Tired in NP*

    I work for a small nonprofit that is essentially held together with duct tape and crazy glue. I love the mission and enjoy the work, but it can definitely be hard somedays when we are underfunded, understaffed, and underpaid. And I just found out something today that leaves me feeling really weird: a board member is personally paying for one our our department heads to take an intensive, year-long leadership program. This is not small money, we are talking at least $3,000. Is this weird or is it just me? Anyway, have a good weekend all!

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      It’s super weird, and the kind of thing that’ll make other employees ask “why not me?” if they hear the same thing. Your instinct is right – this is off, and makes the organization look bad in a way that being tight on cash doesn’t. A board member should be advocating for everyone to get access to leadership opportunities, not backdoor helping out a single employee.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’s not a single person, she says “department heads” are being given this course.

        It’s pretty standard to send leadership to this kind of course. You have to keep a tight leadership in a small underfunded project so that they can utilize any and all resources they may find there. Sadly it does start at the top in most cases.

        They should certainly look into career development for other departments/positions but if they’re on a budget, leadership is going to get it first. It’s pretty standard.

        1. Perpetually Tired in NP*

          Hi! Actually, yes it is just one person in this case. I should probably have clarified as well that it is my department head, although at a staff of two people we aren’t that much of a department. :p

    2. Reba*

      It is weird, but I think not *that* weird. $3000 might be big to you and me personally, but it’s small in the worlds of organizations and education.

      Board members often donate and raise funds for the org, so this could be a kind of line item donation. Given that it’s a department head, I’m assuming there were discussions about this and negotiations you were not privy to. Like, maybe they cannot use grant money for this kind of expense, so they don’t want to make it part of their regular budget. Or maybe the director negotiated this professional development support in lieu of a raise.

      All that said, some non profits are not run on a total shoestring…

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I know that NP’s work on shoestring budgets but the idea of 3,000 being “big money” for any company is giving me anxiety.

      That’s essentially the equivalent to being paid one dollar and fifty cents an hour more. To put it in that kind of perspective.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Wait. You’re a NP. I’m a dumbo. I forget your financials are readily available given that fact. Doh.

          I’m so used to people not knowing the numbers because of all the for-profit secrecy I’m entrenched in all this time LOL. So yeah, I apologize for my response. At least my brain-fog is right on time for me to drag my butt home.

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I have spent substantial time sitting in board meetings listening to arguments over lesser sums, but those are with the kinds of non-profits with no paid staff and all volunteers, so it’s a different animal than a place that is paying salaries.

  187. Vicky Austin*

    Several years ago, I wrote and published a memoir about my experience growing up with ADHD. I published it under my legal name, which is a very uncommon name. (Vicky Austin is a pseudonym that I only use for this website. It’s the name of a character in several books by Madeleine L’Engle.) Sadly, my book only sold about 200 copies and is now out of print. However, when someone Googles my name, the Amazon listing for my book is still the first thing that comes up. (Apparently, Amazon keeps the listing even when the book goes out of print- I guess it’s so a third party can sell used/second hand copies.)
    I am currently in the process of looking for jobs, and I’m worried that when employers Google me and see the book, they will think, “That’s great that she’s so comfortable telling her life story, but the reality is, I need someone who can do this job, and I’m afraid that a person with a medical condition that causes her have trouble with focusing, time management, and organization is qualified for this position.”
    I know you’re probably thinking that if an employer were to do so, it would be a violation of the ADA. However, there are two caveats.
    1. If one tries to sue a company for not hiring due to a disability, the disabled person would probably lose, as there is no way to prove that the disability wasn’t the reason they weren’t hired. The company would simply say, “We chose not to hire her because we felt that another applicant was more qualified,” whether it was true or not.
    2. The ADA says that if an employer believes that an applicant’s disability makes them unqualified for the job, it is perfectly legal not to hire them.

    Because I was fortunate enough to have been diagnosed at a young age (8 years old), I have learned many coping strategies for staying focused, organized, and managing my time; to the point that I am just as competent as a person without ADHD. However, this is something that an employer wouldn’t know just by Googling my name.
    I have been looking for jobs for some time now, but no luck. I recently had an interview where the woman who interviewed me seemed very impressed. I thought for sure that I would get a second interview at the very least. However, I never heard back from her. I can only assume that she Googled me and decided that my ADHD made me disqualified for the job.

    Now I am wondering if I should legally change my name, so that no one will know that I wrote the ADHD book. I’ve also heard that it is possible to pay Google to tweak the results of your name, so that hits that you don’t want people to see will be hidden. Is that true, and if so, how do I go about doing that? Since my book is out of print, I don’t benefit in any way by having it appear on Google. Any help would be appreciated!

    1. Is it Friday yet?*

      My personal opinion is that it’s not a very salacious thing to find when Googling someone to disqualify them over it.

        1. valentine*

          What if you bring it up yourself to describe your organizational and time management skills? They might reveal they saw the book.

          Trying to change your search results seems like overkill.

    2. Buttons*

      The thing you think people are thinking didn’t even occur to me. I don’t think most people would think anything more than “cool! she published a book.”

      1. Vicky Austin*

        Still, I don’t like that it’s the first thing people see when they Google my name, since the book is out of print.

    3. Anon Librarian*

      I have worried about similar things! Because I take for granted that I can write books, and music, and other things like that. So I worry about the details. And there IS cause for concern there; some people ARE judgmental. But the more common reaction is disbelief that I actually did something, or awe and admiration. “Wow! You wrote a BOOK! I can’t imagine that! It must have been so hard. We should hire you.” And the most common negative: “You couldn’t have actually written a book. You must have hired someone to write it for you.” When the content is questioned, it usually comes with other red flags. Major red flags.

      So I think you shouldn’t worry too much. But if you do worry, just add some other web content that will round out their impression of you – something showing how accomplished you are now or just how much you’re enjoying life.

    4. Kiwiii*

      While I also doubt that you’re being rejected because that’s the first thing that comes up on Google, I do understand not wanting it to be your top result. Googling “how to change google results” provides some pretty useful help — a lot of it seems to be pointing towards creating content in other places to make the engagement those places higher than your amazon book listing. Also — if you repeatedly google your name and then click several of the links you’d like to come up before the book, they eventually will start coming up before the book because the engagement is higher.

    5. WellRed*

      I think writing a book is an amazing accomplishment and most people will see it as such. I’m afraid you are so focused on the idea that everyone is googling you and ruling you out based on this might get in the way of critically self assessing whether there might be something else going on.

    6. LilySparrow*

      You had the focus and follow-through to *write a book,* for crying out loud.

      Any employer who thinks writing a book and getting it published is a sign of flakiness and disorganization is a freaking idiot.

      Manipulating the Google results isn’t going to hurt anything, but I really don’t think it’s worth it.

      Changing your name would have a far worse impact on your job search than the book would – it’s a big hassle! It would make getting references a hassle. It looks kind of wierd and impulsive. And it’s going to come up in conversation at some point, so what do you say about it that doesn’t lead back to the book anyway?

      As one ADHDer to another, I think this is your squirrely brain talking, making more problems because problems are interesting.

      1. Vicky Austin*

        I get what you are saying, but at the same time, the skills necessary to write a book aren’t necessarily the same skills one would need for a particular job. Reading this blog for so long has taught me to look at situations from an employer’s perspective. Employers aren’t looking for someone with accomplishments in areas that have nothing to do with the position they are trying to fill, no matter how impressive those accomplishments are or what obstacles they had to overcome to achieve them. All they are concerned about is an applicant’s ability to do the job they are hiring for. That’s why Alison always tells us to leave skills off our resume such as, “I am a loving spouse and parent,” or “I was president of my dance company my senior year in high school” when the position has nothing to do with dancing.

        I’m afraid that employers will say, “That’s impressive that she wrote a book, but it tells me nothing about her ability to do the job I’m hiring for. I’m not looking for someone who can write a book. I’m looking for someone who is reliable, organized, has good time management skills, and is able to focus.”

        1. LilySparrow*

          Well, I wasn’t talking about putting it on your resume. I was talking about whether its existence is a potential red-flag for employers. It isn’t.

          How long have you even been looking? Do you have any reason to think this is actually keeping you from getting interviews, or getting dropped after great interviews?

          Is your work history solid? Are your references good? Are you skilled and accomplished in your field?

          If you’re a marginal candidate, applying for jobs with unintelligent managers who have strange priorities, because you don’t have a lot of options? Then yeah it could possibly make a difference. But in that case, you’d be better setved getting your skills up than wasting time & money on a name change.

          If you’re a good candidate applying to companies who understand how to hire well, it won’t.

          You can’t project your thoughts and feelings into normies’ heads. They don’t think the same way.

  188. Is it Friday yet?*

    I work for a company of about 35 people but the department I work for consists of three people: Jon, who is my boss, Sansa who is my co-worker and me. Sansa and I were both hired about the same time, but Sansa started two weeks after I did. We have both been working for the company for two months. Prior to Sansa and I being hired, there had been two other people working in the department who left around the same time about 3 months before we started. I have come to find out that they did not get along. Sansa was hired to be a Project Manager. That is her real title, in fact. Being that my job involves a high volume of programming and production, I was looking forward to have a Project Manager that I could rely on for managing project timelines and helping our department keep the trains running so to speak. However, I’ve found that Sansa’s work and experience is unlike any PM I have ever worked with. Whenever I ask Sansa a question about an upcoming campaign or project, I am met with “I don’t know” or “Maybe ask _____.” It’s clear that she doesn’t know and isn’t keeping track of projects in any fashion. In fact, most of the time, I have no idea what she’s working on. I have been spinning my wheels managing reports and preparing for meetings that I had hoped Sansa would be doing. I’ve received a lot of praise from my boss and the rest of the company, but I’m starting to get worn down by the lack of balance within our department. I’ve expressed my concern and frustration to our boss, Jon, but his management style is very hands off. It’s also problematic because he has difficulty understanding the technical elements that go into the work I am doing and the support that is needed. Because I’ve been picking up the slack for Sansa, I guess he thinks things are going ok. Because of our line of work, I have no choice but to pick up the slack.
    Most recently, Sansa and I have had a bit of a tiff over some subjective changes she was requesting to a teapot that I was working on. This teapot was a holiday gift we were sending to some of our clients. Sansa oversaw the mailing, but I was in charge of creating the teapot. Sansa really wanted the teapot to fit the theme of an event that we are planning later in the year, so I did my best to fulfill her request while balancing other projects that were of higher priority (none of which Sansa was assisting with). After spending an entire day and multiple rounds of revisions on this teapot, I showed it to Jon because the changes Sansa was requesting were preventing me from getting to other high priority projects. Jon told me to stop doing the changes Sansa had requested and that the teapot was approved. I let Sansa know, and she then asked if SHE could go in and work on the teapot. Sansa does not normally work on teapots and does not have the background to do so, but Jon agreed.
    A month ago, Jon assigned Sansa the weekly teapot reports. Specifically saying that he did not want me working on this, and it was to be Sansa’s responsibility. To my surprise, Sansa has yet to put together the report I have been putting together since I started. Sansa sent an email to Jon and myself saying she wasn’t able to do the report and asked me to “wing it.” I pointed out my frustration about this to Jon and his response was that the weekly teapot reports aren’t black and white, and we’d discuss it later. Other departments must be sensing the tension between us because Jon called a team meeting with us in which he shared our company’s team vision. It was essentially a “rah rah” everyone needs to get along meeting which I don’t find to be very helpful for our situation. Any advice? I’m having a hard time here because as her co-worker, I don’t feel like it’s appropriate for me to correct Sansa when she responds with “I don’t know” or “Go ask _____.” She’s also not managing ALL of our departments priorities… only the ones she decides she wants to work on.

    1. Buttons*

      Yikes, that is tough. Jon is not being a manager at all. I am sure you have already done any number of these things, but here goes
      Make a list of all the things that you are doing that a PM should be doing, and ask Jon if those things can/should be turned over to Sansa.
      When she replies that she doesn’t know can you say “would you please find out and let me know? It is crucial to X.”
      I think you also need to document each time you pick up the slack on the things she isn’t doing. I would start that by emailing her a week before you know you are going to need something, (or whatever time frame is appropriate) and say “Sansa, just a friendly reminder I am going to need X by this date.” And then the day before or whatever email her and ask if she has it, when she doesn’t you can forward the message to your boss. Or maybe it is appropriate to copy him on it from the first one.
      I think as long as things are getting done, Jon doesn’t care how they are getting done. So you are going to have to make it uncomfortable for him before he does anything.
      Good luck! I hope you will update us.

      1. Is it Friday yet?*

        That’s a good response. Thanks! Jon is definitely the problem here from what I’ve gathered, but it seems like upper management is catching on. Sansa has been called out directly a couple of times recently in meetings on things that our grand boss has specifically asked her for and she has made no attempt to start. It wasn’t a good look for her because she’s been asked about them multiple times. I’m not picking up the slack for her on these items since grand boss asked her specifically to do these things, so I feel she either needs to do them or fall on her face.

    2. Mazzy*

      Yeah, you’re going to have to start doing some of the things you think a manager should be doing. Everything buttons said. And I’d add, don’t be afraid to put Sansa on the spot or make it uncomfortable, you’re not there to be 100% comfortable all of the time, heck, you aren’t, because you’re doing Sansa’s job. Push back on her and delegate stuff if you can and start managing your boss. I mean, how the heck is the manager of a three person team that hands off?

  189. Buttons*

    What I want to type is “If you had bothered to read the attached document all the questions you asked below were answered. As in each of those questions is it’s own heading on the one-page overview. You are supposed to be a high-potential employee. act like one.”
    But instead what I will type is “Hi person, Please see the attached overview, it covers all your questions!”

      1. Buttons*

        my boss knows me very well. Yesterday she messaged me and said “I always know when you are irritated and trying not to act like it because you use a lot more exclamation points than normal.” ahaha busted.

  190. The Meow*

    I can’t find the link now but saw an article where a woman suffered a miscarriage/stillborn birth and was off work. During this time her whole team was made redundant and she was notified of this via text. She was incredibly upset at her company about how this was communicated.

    I totally understand why she would be furious. Also, telling someone they lost their job over a text is never ok. But regarding the timing of notification (informing her while she was on bereavement leave) – what else could they have done? Isn’t it necessary to inform her around the same time everyone else was, rather than allowing her to hear the news from another disgruntled coworker. Thoughts?

    1. whistle*

      Yeah, there is basically no good way for the company to convey this information. I’m not sure why exactly, but I think a letter sent via overnight mail would somehow seem more humane but still get the information to her in a speedy manner.

  191. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

    Hopefully not too late.
    I have a business where we do both public & private events. The last few years were scaled waaaaay back due to my health issues. Thanks to modern science I am better than ever (no daily pain is /amazing/).
    My question is, do I address this? On social media or emails/phone calls that I did not respond to? And how would I word this?
    Thanks in advance.

    1. J*

      I would say don’t address it. It may not have registered with people so no need to draw attention to it. If someone does bring it up, maybe say something about being busy but focus on how you can help now.

      1. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

        I want to contact businesses & people that called or emailed me, and I thought that, ‘Sorry, I was busy’ was not quite right. It’s been a few years for some.

        1. WellRed*

          You had to take a step back but now are enthusiastic and back in business (that second part needs massaging but that’s the gist)

  192. HowDoINewJob*

    Is there a way for me to ask in interviews “how do you handle high workloads/times when there’s more work than time”? I’ve been in 2 jobs in a row now where I’ve been praised as “best llama handler we ever had!” – fast learner and worker, attention to detail, llama people skills, yada yada – but also I get “we need you to go faster” and when I ask “okay, where would you like me to cut back?” they say “nowhere”. Also continually adding more responsibilities into my job description, AGAIN without allowing cuts elsewhere to allow for. I’m leaving this second job after less than a year (tried to stick it out but have struggled w/ weird coldness from fellow handlers, then recently found out there was animosity toward me before I was even hired!?!?). I love the work, so I dont want it to come off as being incapable of handling priority juggling – I just feel like I’m told I need to be responsible for prioritizing, but then constantly being punished for what DIDN’T get done while what DID get done is ignored, even after repeatedly highlighting “I cant do a and b and c” and having that acknowledged but also told it all needs to be done “somehow”.

    Related, both jobs they never say no to work so no downtime, no “catch up on the admin side” time, and a constant “working full speed/multiple missed deadlines/begging forgiveness from clients rather than asking permission (that is, being honest about the amount of work lined up before theirs/that even when theirs reaches the top we’ll drop it to do other stuff if someone yells at us”, which is exhausting and inefficient and leads to some real messy records and such. Again, how do I convey yes, I can work like a demon” but also clarify “but not 100% of the time” without coming off as not wanting TO work?

    1. Massive Dynamic*

      If it’s a client-based field, then maybe some bigger overall questions could help you suss out what type of situation you’re walking into – what is the company’s vision for growth, how often do new clients come on board, what is an average client load for someone in the role you are looking to move into, how does the firm approach competing priorities from multiple clients…. if you ask these and you only hear Growth Good! Make All Clients Happy! Every Task Important! instead of some real, nuanced answers about how they handle these things, then there you go.

      Signed, someone currently extremely happy at a low-growth firm.

    2. Profane Pencils*

      Hmm. That sounds frustrating, and tricky. I’ve written a couple scripts in this comment and then deleted them because I didn’t like them, but I would ask questions about performance metrics and work-life balance. i.e. something along the lines of:
      “How do you measure performance? What metrics do you use? does it change during busy seasons?” and “I know this industry can be really hectic at times. What’s the company policy on overtime/view of work-life balance? Is the office culture more collaborative or independent?” the idea behind that last one being getting a feel for distributing workload if you get overwhelmed.

      I don’t love my suggestion and think it needs some workshopping, but hopefully it gives you somewhere to start.

    3. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      A very late reply, but this is one where I’d talk to current employees to find out how it actually is. More than one employee, because different people react differently to this situation.

  193. J*

    I have two internal candidates that I am struggling to considering for a role: Person A currently is in a role that our group serves and very good at it. The perspective gained in that position would be an asset to the team should person A be hired. Person B is already on the team and reports to me and has demonstrated growth, learning, productivity, and enthusiasm for opportunity. I see the role as a good development opportunity for Person B, and personally value the chance to grow team members. Since I believe both individuals would be successful in the position, I’m struggling to weigh the candidates based on these criteria which i basically think make up the major differences between the two. Thoughts welcomed.

    1. Buttons*

      That is a good dilemma to have :) too qualified and competent people! Just a random thought– could Person B take Person A’s job to gain that type of experience and perspective? I am a big believer in this type of development. Within my company, we actively encourage lateral moves for that very reason. As people move into leadership roles the broader experience helps the big-picture thinking.
      I probably didn’t help much!

  194. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

    Keeping on with my job search. I got ghosted by 2 recruiters in one week! Is this a trend now??? One messaged me asking to scheduled a phone call. I responded with my phone number and some times and he never got back to me. I gave him a few days and followed and nothing.

    Another one invited me to an on-site job interview. I’m going to be out of town on the days she suggested so I replied asking if they could push it back a couple of days. Silence. Was this an unreasonable ask?

    1. Close Bracket*

      Not an unreasonable ask at all! I’m sorry you haven’t heard back. If it hasn’t been very long, they might just be checking schedules.

    2. voluptuousfire*

      I’ve been ghosted by recruiters. My favorite recently was one who reached out about a role I applied for but wasn’t a fit for but she had one that was more aligned with my resume. I told her I’d like to chat. I followed up twice about it and never heard back.

      And your asking to push it back since you’re out of town is reasonable. Unless they’re Scrooge incarnated or there’s some really, unusually tight timelines, your ask is perfectly fine.

    3. Disco Janet*

      Not unreasonable, but I’ve found some places to be very strict/picky about when they’re interviewing. Over the summer I had it happen TWICE where I was contacted for an interview, and told what day the interviews were taking place. Both were happening on a day I was out of town, but I was available every other day that week. They both basically said, “okay, sorry it won’t work out.” Seemed strange to me that they’d lose a good candidate based on them having one day they’re not available, but they were very set on not interviewing outside of their pre-determined days.

  195. Zephy*

    This week has been a nail-biter for me and my partner. He was supposed to find out on the 17th if he was accepted into his radiography AS program. From what he told me, rejections are sent via email and acceptances are snail-mailed paper letters. It’s a competitive program – there’s about 30 slots and usually around 100 applicants per cycle, so they just have a points system, sort applicants by number of points, and then accept the top 30. A given cohort moves through the program in lockstep and it starts in January, so if he wasn’t accepted for this one, he has to wait and apply for the January 2021 start. Not getting in could just mean he was number 31. But that’s the thing – as far as I know, it’s all quiet on the western front, so to speak. He didn’t get an email yesterday (or today, to my knowledge – I’m at work but I’m sure he would have texted me). I’m cautiously optimistic that that means there’s a letter in the mail! I don’t know if they mailed them yesterday or mailed them a little while ago so they’d likely arrive around the 17th, but we live in the same county as the school (15 miles away tbh), so it shouldn’t take more than a day or two to get from there to here.

    Poor boy, though – he’s just a ball of anxiety and he won’t allow himself to relax until he has the definite yea or nay. His anxietybrain has him convinced that “I just haven’t gotten the email yet,” and I think either possibility is kind of equally terrifying to him right now. On one hand, if he didn’t get in, what now? Just keep taking random classes for another year, pad that GPA, and reapply next summer? But if he did get in, then it’s really happening and he’s really going to have to go for it.

    1. Zephy*

      Update, if anyone’s still checking the open thread on Monday, haha:

      He didn’t get in. :( The weekend was kind of a downer. If he applies again for the January 2021 start, he’ll have a much stronger application, though – they award points for having applied before, and he’ll have padded his GPA a bit as well. He came in with, I think, a 3.0 or 3.1 from his first undergrad, and he’s made straight A’s in all the classes he’s taken in preparation for the program. There’s also no official “wait list,” but the letter (yeah, turns out rejections do get paper letters as well, that was a nice little kick in the teeth) said that if slots become available, applicants will be notified in order of points. So, if he is number 31, and someone who did get in decides they can’t or don’t want to do it, that could open a spot for him.

  196. Office Mercenary*

    For a while I’ve been trying to pivot into a niche specialization of an extremely competitive field, and a few months ago I got my first freelance project. As luck would have it, it’s the topic on which I wrote my dissertation and it’s incredibly meaningful. Despite some imposter syndrome, I’ve been producing good work and I really like my colleagues. The client is a household name, and a few colleagues and I will be featured in the final product, which will be distributed internationally. I’m thrilled both about the work itself and about using it to kickstart my career.

    It is, essentially, my dream job–except, of course, it’s not actually a job. The client is notoriously bureaucratic and cheap, even by the standards of our field, which is known to run on the labor of unpaid interns and volunteers. It is totally normal for people in this field to work for free for years on end, or to freelance part-time for long periods. To make matters worse, the client is based in a different country and is not subject to the labor laws of my country.

    The initial project was only meant to be three weeks long and the flat-rate compensation reflected that. That was six months ago, and the project is still growing. This is great in many ways; the more it grows, the more people will see the final product, and the more impact it will have. The project is also getting more ambitious and I have more room to expand my ideas. But the pay hasn’t increased! I spent the spring and summer struggling to make ends meet with a really stressful day job that I have since quit. I think I’ve put in more time than anyone else on the team but I’m not sure if our project lead realizes that, since we all work remotely and don’t talk daily. (He has no control over the budget. He works extremely long hours and I doubt he is paid fairly either.) While other portions of the project are done, my portion has continued to grow exponentially and I have enough remaining tasks to fill at least few more months of full-time labor. Because it’s a labor of love, I could continue working on some aspects of this topic independently after the project finishes, but other aspects are time-sensitive and must be finished before the public release of the project, so I’m working as fast as I can. I would have more time to devote to this if I didn’t have to find another job.

    The initial memo of understanding assumed that the project would conclude after a particular milestone, which has recently passed but we have at least three more months of work ahead of us. I’d like to use this as an opportunity to negotiate for more money, but don’t want to alienate the client. Anyone have advice about how to proceed? I would especially love to hear from people in the non-profit/journalism/media fields.

    TL;DR: I simply can’t afford to continue to work for free, no matter how worthy the cause. On the one hand, working for free is absurd. On the other hand, it’s not that unusual with this field, and this client in particular. What should I do/say?

    1. Profane Pencils*

      I’m unfortunately not in the fields you mentioned, but I am wondering: do you have a written agreement/contract? can you renegotiate the price based on the scope of work? I’d be inclined to present it as a “I want to make sure we’re all on the same literal page for goals and timeline”.

      I have no idea if that’s helpful, but I hope it is!

    2. AnotherAlison*

      What in the world?

      I’m not in those fields, so I will not leave you with my actual thoughts on how silly it is that people are expected to do work for free.

      For the actual advice, you had an MOU. It’s now past the MOU milestone, so now is a great time to renegotiate. In my field, I would set up a project services agreement with a proposed rate sheet and defined scope and schedule. If they don’t like your proposal, they can negotiate with you and you can tell them you would cut your rate or not. If I were in your shoes, I would start off the convo by discussing the MOU status, and then I would say that since you’ve been gaining experience you are no longer freelancing pro-bono and this is how you’ll need to approach the project if they want you to continue. A lot has changed since the start.

  197. FirewallsAreMyLife*

    Was interested in other people’s takemething that happened yesterday at the 500-person company I work at. My boss Dave (the CISO, a VP, reporting to the COO) had let the entire security staff (7 of us) go home at 2 PM on Wednesday. We’d been working a lot of overtime on some upgrades and projects, so since things slowed down, Dave told us to go out, have some fun and take the rest of the day off. Dave is a great manager, and everyone who works with him and for him loves him, and has been very impressied since he arrived a little over a year ago.

    Yesterday (Thursday), Dave, myself and two of his other reports, plus two other folks from outside IT are having a discussion in a conference room with the door ajar. Lisa, this older HR manager, who is something of a busybody and generally disliked by most people, but who has been here for years, since it was a 100 person company, and she *was* HR, barged into the meeting and asked Dave in a very confrontational voice “I was told that you let everyone in your department go home at noon yesterday. Is that true?” Dave said “Yeah. They’ve been working a lot, we were slow, so I told them to take the rest of the afternoon off. Why?” Lisa responded. “You can’t do that. You are not allowed to tell people they can take off. That is HR’s responsibility to set schedules. Don’t ever do that again. You’re lucky I don’t dock their pay for taking off without approval.” Dave turned beet red, and looked at all of and said “Folks, may we have the room?” (He’s ex-military)

    We left, and of course me and my coworkers went into the adjoining conference room, closee enough to hear. Lisa started to say something, but Dave just tore into her. He’s normally a very soft-spoken, quiet guy. Very kind. I have never heard him raise his voice, but he was furious. When she started to say something starting with “You’re lucky I don’t…” Dave roared “Enough! You will NEVER speak to me like that again, especially in front of others. Ever. If I tell my people they have the day off, they have the f***ing day off. You are a manager. I am a VP, and you will not be insubordinate. You take your a** back to your office and sit there while I decide whether or not to have security come drag you out today. Either way? You and I are going to have a chat with your bosses boss. Now get out.”

    Lisa was holding back tears as she fast-walked back to to the elevators. My coworker and I jst stared at each other. Personally Dave has now become a minor deity to me, and, evidently to most of the folks on our team. I liked the way he handled it. When he came out and we ran into him on the way back to our offices, he was calm, collected and cool, like always, and apologized for the “interruption”.

    I just wanted to get some other people’s take on this. Lisa is still here today (Friday), but she seems to be staying close to HR. And I believe Dave did have a talk with the head of HR, also a VP. I’m aiming to eventually move into a CISO role myself, so I’m interested in how others see this.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Scary. I don’t like managers that yell, and I don’t think there’s any call for yelling or cursing at staff. Especially for what is a relatively minor incident. Does he feel like a big man, making someone he has power over cry? Ugh.

      Our COO was like that, very charming and charismatic and everyone liked him, even me. But every time he wanted to talk to me my stomach would sink and my heart would race because I was also afraid of him. And he never even yelled at me. I just heard him yelling often enough and saw him break down enough of my coworkers that I developed fear of being yelled at. It sucks to be afraid of your boss.

      There were better, less aggressive ways to handle that whole thing.

        1. valentine*

          Dave is scary, that was completely awful, including inappropriate and unprofessional, and there’s no guarantee you won’t be on the receiving end someday.

      2. WellRed*

        He could have been less aggressive but bathing into a meeting to take a senior employee to task over something they had every right to do isn’t minors, IMO.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          This. He probably should have saved the cursing, but she absolutely needed to be dragged and put back in her place.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Nope, yelling at her was not OK at all. Dave needs to learn how to control his emotions when he is addressing problems he has with his subordinates.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        It doesn’t sound like he lost control of his emotions. It sounds like it was calculated to match Lisa’s crappy power play. And by the looks of it, he won, so obviously his read of the situation was correct.

        If you play unprofessional games, you are going to get unprofessional games back.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          He yelled and cursed at her — that sounds like losing control of his emotions to me. And he left her in tears. That’s abusive and is out of line for the workplace. If she needed a reprimand, then Dave should have used his words to explain how grave the problem was, not replied in kind (and to a greater degree, even) to her unprofessional conduct. Yelling and cursing was not appropriate.

          1. FirewallsAreMyLife*

            I think Quinn is right. WHen we saw him 5 minutes later, he was totally composed. I think he was totally in control of his emotions, but used those emotions and the response he knew it could create to make his point and to assert his legitimate authotiy. Like I said in a year and a half of working with him every day, I have never seen him be anything but polite, appropriate and quite kind. I think his response was intentional, and, based on her behavior (she has a history of doing this, quite possibly with him previously), he needed to communicate to her in no uncertain terms that was unacceptable.

            1. Glomarization, Esq.*

              We’re gonna have to disagree that it’s ever OK to yell and curse at a subordinate in the workplace to the point where she’s fighting back tears. That he’s a dude and she’s a woman makes the dynamics of the situation only that much worse. If he felt he needed to communicate with her this way at this point, it was because he failed to communicate the problem with her more appropriately beforehand, and he allowed it to get to a point where he felt she “needed” to be yelled at to understand how unacceptable her conduct was. Her history of doing this may be an explanation for Dave’s anger, but it’s not an excuse for him to lose his cool (or carefully weaponize his anger) at her.

              1. FirewallsAreMyLife*

                I don’t think the “woman” part of it has anything whatsoever to do with this. I’m a woman, and a rather unconventional out lesbian at that. I am definitely attuned to sexism (especially in technology where it often is rampant), and there has never been a single second where he acted in a sexist or demeaning manner. Never. Had Lisa been a guy? I’m almost certain his actions would have been precisely the same. I like your term “weaponizing” his anger at her, though. I think it’s a useful weapon, and you are correct. He used it as a tool at his disposal, and it looks like it worked.

                1. Agatha_31*

                  I would never trust a man I heard talking to someone like that. And if a co-worker let me know they’re not just okay but actively enthusiastic about ‘weaponizing’ anger in the workplace, particularly in the context of a confrontation between an ex-military man with the higher rank on his side and a woman, I’d be staying way the hell away from them as well.

          2. WellRed*

            We have lots of letters here from people who cry at work. I’m not sure where to draw the line here. Lisa was out of bounds though. She not only had no standing on this issue, she tried to take someone to task in front of others. At least a Dave understood the adage, praise in public, punish in private. Unlike Lisa.

    4. WellRed*

      Lisa was waay out of line. hR sets schedules? No. Embarrassing someone in front of others? Double no. Could he have worded it better? Maybe, but frankly, I’d rather work for a Dave then a Lisa.

    5. Rick Tq*

      Bravo to Dave! Lisa was way, way out of line when she:
      – barging in to a meeting
      – attacking a VP about his actions in front of his subordinates
      – claimed ownership of exempt staff schedules with final approval rights for time off
      – threatened to dock exempt staff pay because her process wasn’t followed.

      Dave took the meeting private and reset her attitude, beginning with her insubordination in exactly the same way he would have done to a Louis if he had done the same thing..

      Going up the chain to *her* VP was also appropriate, and it appears Lisa was told to stick to her currently assigned tasks.

      It *might* have gone better if Lisa had asked to speak to him in private but she made the first wrong move by confronting a VP in such a public manner.

    6. LGC*

      …I actually don’t like the way Dave handled it. But I can definitely understand, since Lisa also handled it poorly.

      It might have been satisfying to yell at Lisa for him (and for you), but Lisa is junior staff to him. And – maybe it’s my perspective – but I think yelling at your employees is an abuse of power. (I mean, I’ve had the urge numerous times! But – maybe this is sexist of me – I try to avoid it especially when I have to talk to women.)

      But also – she literally interrupted the meeting for that? That’s…if not as bad as what Dave did, it’s at least extremely close. I think there are very few reasons to cut off people at work and embarrass them. This wasn’t it, and it wasn’t anywhere near the ballpark.

      So basically, I still think Dave managed poorly…but also, Lisa sounds like a bad employee. I would not be surprised if both of them got reprimanded, and frankly they’d both deserve it.

      1. FirewallsAreMyLife*

        I can’t imagine Dave getting reprimanded for this, but Lisa has been known to do this stuff before (her singature line is “You’re lucky that I don’t….” when she busybodies her way into things.) I have started to wonder if this might be a ex-military thing. My fiancee was in the army, and when I told her about what happened, her response was that she thought this was totally appropriate, and that she’d seen insubordination like this handed similarly when she was in (and in fact had to handle something similarly when one of the guys on her crew was direspectful to her because she was a woman or a lesbian, she’s not sure which made him act like a jerk). Obviously the civilian world is a different place, but the more I think about this, the more I tend to think Dave handled this properly. Maybe it’s just me. It will be interesting to see what happens next week.

        1. Rick Tq*

          If (and it is a big IF) Lisa’s concerns about the schedule and pay were valid she had standing to speak to Dave in private. Starting the interaction in public and threatening his staff with docked pay took it way over the line and earned her the semi-private dressing down and I can’t imagine Dave’s subsequent talk with her VP was pleasant for Lisa. She reminds me of the auditor who decided he had the duty to pre-approve OP’s travel expenses until he tried to interfere with OP supporting the CEO at a conference. It didn’t end well for that busybody either.

          For those not in the IT business Information Systems Security people are in-demand specialists with essentially a zero unemployment rate. They certainly aren’t hourly workers with a fixed schedule.

    7. LilySparrow*

      I think if a manager has the gall to tell a VP “you’re lucky I don’t…” anything work-related, then that manager needs a short, sharp dose of reality ASAP.

      Lisa got one.

      Not only did she undermine and threaten the VP in front of his own staff, she was trying to bully his staff in front of him by threatening to unfairly dock their pay in a blatant abuse of (her perceived) power.

      Her words and actions were far more aggressive and inappropriate than Dave using the f-word, and I’m really surprised that a bunch of grownups are so appalled by a single curse word that they can’t see the crap Lisa was pulling on the staff.

      If a bully cries when they get called out, it doesn’t mske them a victim. It’s just one more layer of manipulative BS in the bully bag of tricks.

      1. Honoria*

        I agree completely. I think Dave handled it beautifully and did an excellent job both protecting his team and shutting down a blatant act of bullying and insubordination. Lisa is lucky she wasn’t fired on the spot.

      2. Close Bracket*

        Why is crying manipulative BS but turning red and yelling are not? If Dave gets to display his emotions, so does Lisa.

  198. Andream*

    I could use some advice. At my new job every third Thursday we go to a local restaurant for breakfast. We are required to pay for her own food but we do have a drawing at the end of the meal where one person’s meal will be paid for. I am an hourly employee where most of everyone else is salaried. I feel very odd going to these meetings and getting paid when I’m not actually doing. I have had bad jobs in the past where I lives micromanaged and every minute was accounted for in some way. For example, I would have to mark myself in personal time if I went to use the bathroom outside of break or put myself in meaning or training when meeting with other people. Perhaps it is just because I haven’t worked outside call center but I am struggling with feeling like I am taking advantage of work by not actually working even though it is approved and a normal thing this department does every month. I also have slight anxiety issues where I feel like I am going to be in trouble because I am attending these meetings and I am hourly not salaried. I was invited by my boss so it’s not like I misunderstood anything. Does anyone have any advice and how I can feel less weird and anxious about this. For context I’ve only been here a little over a month. And I am no longer working in call center I am admin support at my local universiy.

    1. WellRed*

      You are required to be there with your coworkers. That counts as work. Frankly, the oddest thing is they don’t pay for your food and have a drawing. that’s weird!

    2. Alex*

      Being paid to be at work is normal, even if that moment at work is “having a collegial meal with coworkers.” Think of this as part of your job.

      Many hourly jobs do not micromanage every moment or even expect you to be working every moment. I also work at a university and hourly workers are allowed to chat with peers, use the bathroom any time without worry, and generally behave like a human. It’s fine, as long as most of your time is spent doing work and/or you are being as productive as expected.

  199. Pokepolka*

    Any tips on how not to become burnt out from a friend’s job search?

    Close friend is a recent college grad looking for their first job in communications / advertising field
    They got a degree in Gender Studies but spent 2-3 years working in the field for their part-time work study job.

    Now it’s been almost 3 months and I am getting a bit burnt out from having to hear their constant frustrations and depressing thoughts since they haven’t gotten any callbacks yet. Resume and cover letter are solid so I feel that it’s a highly competitive field with little entry level positions open.

    I’ve constantly tried to tell them (we meet for lunch every few days during the week) that 1) its tough to get your foot in the door 2) they are a good candidtae but must be realistic about how hard it is to get a job in a new field, much less as a new grad. They’re getting very disillusioned about the job search and I am also getting worn down from constantly having to dispense advice or repeat what I’ve said before.

    Any advice?

    1. Quandong*

      My suggestion is to establish boundaries around how much you will listen to your friend’s frustrations and depressing thoughts, and to recalibrate so that you spend time dong ‘not job search’ stuff together instead.

      I love Captain Awkward’s advice and highly recommend reading any of her advice about boundaries.

      You might like to read letter#143 as a starting point. Good luck!

    2. LilySparrow*

      You say, “Hey, can we talk about something else? I don’t know about you, but I need some no-work-talk time.”

      And then you don’t talk about your work either.

      This isn’t so much about your friends job hunt, as it is about your friend demanding an unfair amount of emotional labor over a very ordinary, non-crisis part of life.

      Every new grad has to look for a job. I’m sure you have had something happen in your life in the last 3 months that you care about just as much as they care about the job hunt.

  200. Anne*

    I can’t get a loan to start a business and attempting to get help on sites like gofundme or supportful… just no. No one cares and no one understand the situation I’m in… I can’t do anything. I can’t even get my cats from my parents’ property or any of my stuff… they won’t let me. I’m about to be homeless. I can’t pay my medical bills. I can’t get a job. I’m just a living dead person. I just… when I die, I hope my organs go to people who really need them so I can at least succeed in that.

    1. WellRed*

      You are not a living dead person. I’m not sure what support to offer but didn’t want your comment to go unnoticed. The medical bills will wait or you file for bankruptcy (easier said then done, I know). I’m sorry your family won’t help you. Can you get some sort of retail job to tide you over? Have you exhausted charitable resources? How can we help you?

    2. Grace Less*

      There are lots of things you CAN do, and they will bring value to other people. Good listeners provide support, organizers create order and calm, enthusiastic spread positivity. Please focus on sharing your gifts with others, and finding the support you need in the short term to make it happen long-term.

    3. Anono-me*

      You sound like someone who’s been through a lot. And like someone who’s tried very hard for an awful long time.

      Medical issues (even if you’re supposed to be recovered and especially if you’ve had anesthesia in the last 6 months) can make everything harder than it would be normally. Please keep that in mind when you’re setting expectations for yourself.

      Please reach out to someone locally who can help you regain your balance. If you’re in the USA, your county Social Services should be able to get you started. You might also find it helpful to see if the medical center that treated you has a social worker that can help you get back on track. (A medical center social worker probably has a lot of experience with people whose lives have been derailed by medical issues.) There are also faith-based organizations that try to help people; but you will need to consider if their agenda is helpful or hurtful to your well-being.

      Once you have a game plan for getting through the next few weeks, take a good hard look at the resources on this website for finding a job. For the short term, I would suggest focusing on finding a job that lets you have some security rather than trying to start a business or getting your career going. You probably need a little more time to recover from everything you’ve been through first.

      One place you may want to look for a job is at the medical center where are you had treatment. Most medical centers are constantly hiring Food Service aides, cleaners, transport workers, billing clerks Etc. Once you’re working there they may be more amenable to a payment plan on your bills. Also if you want a medical career, most medical centers will help their employees with further training.

      Although retail hiring is ramping up right now for the holidays, it may not be a good fit for you right now, because the holidays are a very difficult time to work retail, even for long-term Pros. If you do go retail you might want to look at a smaller more niche store.

      I know you are worried about your cats. But hopefully you parents will take adequate care of them. Also it is my understanding that most cats have a strong sense of self preservation . And once you have re-establish yourself, it will be much easier to resolve that issue.

      Please be kind to yourself.

      Please consider letting us know how you’re doing either this weekend or next weekend or both.

    4. sheep jump death match*

      You sound like you are really struggling right now. You can call the Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1-800-273-8255. Maybe going to visit your cats would help. I bet they will be happy to see you. I hope things get better for you soon.

  201. EggEgg*

    I had an interview today with my “dream company” (I know we don’t use that language, but this employer is at the top of the list on my five year plan!). I love the job I’m in now, but this one would be a huge step up in a lot of ways. Alison’s advice helped me write a very strong cover letter, and her interview advice was the primary guiding force in my first ever interview where I was interviewing the company as much as they were interviewing me.

    I feel like I represented myself positively and also accurately, and if I get screened out it’s genuinely because I wouldn’t have been a good fit for the position and not because I interviewed poorly. I’ve never felt like this before after an interview before, and it’s so empowering! Thank you Alison!

    1. Yup*

      Sounds like you nailed the interview. Your preparation paid off and I imagine you weren’t nervous at all because you were fully prepared to answer the questions and interview them.

      What type of interview was it? How many people did you talk to and what types of questions did they ask?

  202. Leona*

    Hey everyone, hope your weeks have been good! I was hoping people could weigh in on off-putting jokes in a work environment as a new hire.

    I’m a couple weeks into a new job after a long period of unemployment (caretaking for a sick family member). I love the job itself, and one of the things that drew me to apply was the warm, convivial office environment that I felt during the interview process. (An acquaintance also has worked here in another department and I heard the same thing from him before I applied.)

    I really like and have been getting along with my immediate boss and the rest of my department, who all have a jokey, teasing rapport after working together many years. They’ve been welcoming of me, and I’m happy to joke around with them, although I’ve been fairly restrained/extra professional as a new employee. But in the last several days, I’ve been uncomfortable with the tone of their joking. Two of my male coworkers in particular make lots of joking references to gender and gender identity – lots of little comments like “Why would you assume is a man?!” Or “don’t refer to me as male, I might use different pronouns!” They both find this hilarious (???) and occasionally try to include me in it. I’m a cis woman with several friends and family members who are gender-nonconforming, and I find their “jokes” pretty offensive/casually phobic, not to mention dumb. The company presents itself as quite inclusive, but if I were a trans person, I would not feel comfortable working around these dudes.

    I’ve been responding with silence or just “Huh.” I am ok with them feeling awkward or embarrassed, but they don’t seem to notice that I’m not on board. I have so far not said anything explicit about how dumb these jokes are, and I know it’s pretty cowardly of me, but I’m having a hard time working up the courage to address it as a brand new person and I don’t want to alienate myself from the people I depend on to do my job. They are not otherwise boorish guys, and I have heard them condemning homophobic/sexist behavior in others, but I guess they think gender identity is fair game.

    Basically, I’m looking for the courage/script to use when I’m dragged into another one of these jokes. I am not sure whether to keep it very friendly and light, whether they’d respond better to being teased back??, or whether I should be aggressive about it.

    Has anyone dealt with this type of thing, either as a new kid on the block or a longtime coworker? I’ve talked back to racist/sexist bosses in the past, but they’ve been absolute jerks whose comments were damning by any standard. I worry that I’ll be totally dismissed out of hand.

    Any advice would be nice! (I’m not really looking for people who use phrases like “PC police”, though).

    Thanks in advance!

    1. juliebulie*

      If you’re feeling brave one day, you could remark that they generally seem like such nice people, you’re surprised by the casual hostility about gender identity. Why is it okay to ridicule people for wanting to be themselves?

      If they really are nice people otherwise, this might be all the wakeup call they need to see their own behavior through someone else’s eyes. If they’re really not so nice, well, now you know.

    2. Anon123*

      Hmm I am having the same exact problem. I’ve been thinking about saying something like “I don’t get it, are you making fun of trans people? Because it’s actually coming across as really trivializing.” Or, since one of the people making these comments thinks he’s really down, “You know, you would be more down if you stopped trying to prove you’re down.” But I’m scared I’ll end up ranting and coming out as non-binary… I will report back if my phrasing works.

    3. Alianora*

      I’ve noticed there’s some cognitive dissonance many people have around making these jokes and their stated opinion on trans people. My baby boomer aunt used to make attack helicopter/did you assume my gender jokes, but at the same time she claimed to support trans rights. One day I pointed out (mildly) that they were transphobic and she was flabbergasted, but the next day she came back to me and admitted she’d never thought of it that way. She didn’t realize that she was making fun of actual trans people, I guess she thought it was some sort of absurdist humor or something.

      If you have an otherwise good relationship with these guys and they aren’t homophobic, it might work to say, “Hey, can I ask you why you make those jokes?” without sounding aggressive or judgmental, just genuinely asking. And then listen to their answer and have a real conversation about it. People almost never react well to someone else telling them what to do, but exposing them to a different perspective can sometimes lead to self-reflection.

      Of course this is all best-case scenario, I’ve had coworkers get defensive and prickly. But this approach has gotten me better results than lecturing about transphobia has.

    4. Honoria*

      I really like juliebulie’s phrasing about being “surprised by the casual hostility about gender identity”–I’m gonna keep that in my mind’s back pocket for the next time one of those “jokes” about preferred pronouns comes out of somebody’s mouth, rather than just silently cringing.

  203. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    There’s a position that has been open for a long time, so long that I’ve been contacted by three people from three agencies, none of them take kindly when I say “no thanks, your client has already interviewed me X months ago and decided I wasn’t good enough” and “I’m changed jobs and I’m not interested in leaving”. It’s a communist parade sized red flag and they know it.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yuck!

      I still remember when I had to tell the temp agency I worked for when I was breaking into my career that I had already interviewed for a position at a company they were thinking about sending me to. Thankfully they were competent at their jobs and just went “Welp yeah that’s a no then, moving on to the next place for you!” Back before recruiters were wandering around the internet and like frigging panthers stalking prey.

    2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      I wish these people ran a basic check. My best guess is this company hired a handful of agencies and freelancers, set up a juicy comission and made them compete to see who gets the best candidate. They called me in January, May and October. Either no one is good enough for their client or people don’t last long. Anyway, it’s a no-go for me.

  204. CrookedLily*

    Posting late because I never have time during the day anymore.

    I definitely had a couple of “don’t give a F” moments this week. And not in the sense of not giving a F about doing my job, the opposite really. The thing is I do my job, and I do it well. But they would rather breathe down my neck and treat me like I’m trying to get away with something because of my health and disability accommodation needs, than do anything about the people who really don’t do anything and get away with it. So I reached my limit for playing politics, the game of “smile and cover everyone’s ass, never throw anyone under the bus.”

    When I got stuck cleaning up someone else’s mess, I documented in my ticket who F’ed up and exactly what they did, and I refused to lie to my customer (internal), too. I let them know that how the previous member of my team handled their issue was the completely wrong step to take for their situation, and actually ended up causing them even more headache.

    Then today, someone called to find out why the request they submitted 4 1/2 months ago was just cancelled by the department that was supposed to complete it. It had been approved within four days of being submitted and assigned over to the team that needed to complete the task – it was literally just to install a program on a computer, nothing complicated. It sat there all this time, never completed, until today when the manager of that team cancelled it, listing the reason as “there has been no update in 60 days,” and saying to submit a new request if it’s still needed. The guy who requested it wanted to know what the hell that meant, why they would cancel a request for lack of updates when it was waiting on them in the first place, and why he should have to start the process over again and restart the SLA timer just because they failed to deliver an approved request in a timely fashion. So, I opened a ticket asking exactly that. Didn’t reword it to sound like the customer “needed help” understanding a “perfectly reasonable” policy. Just flat out “please explain why this is acceptable.”

    I can only dream of doing my job that way… Letting assigned work just sit and not doing it, then deciding to cancel it because I didn’t do it. “If you still need it, submit it again to the bottom of the pile…”

  205. fhqwhgads*

    I am hoping there is an HR professional in California out there who can help me understand something.

    California requires at least 3 sick days (24 hours) for full time employees per year. There is a thing in the law about if there is a PTO policy in effect that I don’t understand.

    I just got a job offer and their benefits info/policies includes paid holidays and vacation time. They explicitly refer to it as vacation time. They do not phrase it as a single PTO bucket for vacation/personal/sick. It’s just called vacation. There is also a separate section about bereavement leave.

    If the amount of vacation I’d have under this policy is more than 3 days, does that mean they do not have to provide separate sick days in addition? Or are they supposed to still provide the 3 sick days?

    The policy also says vacation does not roll over and is not paid out, but CA also requires that it either not expire or be paid out. They do have other employees in CA so I’m guessing the info they gave me is just the company default and even though it doesn’t explicitly mention “except where local laws differ” that’s probably how it works? How do I ask about this without seeming like a jerk?

    1. LGC*

      I’d ask about the “vacation” bucket in on boarding, if you do take the position. (And when considering it, I’d think about it as meeting the minimum standards in California. So, treat the vacation as one PTO bucket and assume it carries over.)

      I think you’re right in that they probably just didn’t specify “local laws apply.” It looks like in California – like my own state, which has a similar law – plans just have to offer enough time to cover the requirement. California is different from my state (New Jersey) where the law specifies that those plans are grandfathered in – so if a plan offers ten days of unrestricted PTO, it’s allowable.

      For what it’s worth, my org’s plan has one bucket, but has separate bereavement and jury duty leave. So it doesn’t sound that weird to me.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        The concept of one bucket isn’t weird to me, but when it is one bucket I’m not used to it being referred to explicitly as “vacation” (rather than “PTO”). That’s what threw me. What happened here is I successfully negotiated for the new place to match my vacation from current place, and didn’t realize until after that new place was a one-bucket situation. I feel like I can’t go back and ask for more now since they gave me what I asked for, but I’m effectively losing a week of PTO and I feel stupid because I’d thought I’d gotten myself a match. On top of that I don’t understand exactly how the law about sick leave works. So if they were required to give 3 days, that would lessen the blow, but it’s not clear to me if they are. If they are, then I’m sure they’d follow the local law. I’m just trying to first understand what’s required and then once I do, find the words to get clarification on what’s actually going to happen without seeming like I negotiated in bad faith before or otherwise make myself seem difficult.

        1. LGC*

          Ah, it sounded like you were a bit thrown off by the separate bereavement leave!

          But…this is above my pay grade (literally), but ouch on losing a week of PTO possibly. That might be a good letter to write in, actually – about whether you can negotiate more time if they didn’t represent their time off properly. I’ll say that I would read the HELL out of that letter.

  206. JustAWafer*

    I have a question for any contractors out there!

    The work I do for one of my clients requires me to gather information from a team of about 10 on a regular basis.

    Only one person on the team actually replies to my emails on the first try. Typically a few more respond to a follow-up, and it takes the director jumping into the email chain to say it’s a priority to get anyone else to reply.

    This is a serious issue that is impeding my ability to do my job well. It reflects badly on me when work is late (because I couldn’t get the information I needed on time), I end up working late nights and weekends (because someone sent me the information at 6pm on a Friday for example), and I can’t plan properly to optimize the workflow, the product or my schedule because I don’t know what kind of information I’m going to receive or when (if at all – there is a culture with this client of not replying to emails unless absolutely required so I never know if the person didn’t see it, forgot, or just doesn’t have anything for me this time).

    I have brought this concern to the director, and have been told that I just need to be “more firm”, and furthermore, he wants to step away from jumping into these email chains.

    I am not sure how to be more firm than setting deadlines and sending several follow-ups – especially since these people aren’t my employees. I can pick up a phone, but then I would be having 10 phone calls (or leaving messages) asking people to reply to my email. I also charge by the hour and don’t want to waste their money inefficiently collecting information.

    The issue is that everyone is extremely busy, but I’d like to get a system in place so that it becomes second nature for the staff to send me this information, rather than waiting for me to chase them down for it. (Is this a pipe dream?)

    Has anyone had experience with this sort of thing? How do you encourage people to give you the information you need? Have you successfully set up a system that encourages the flow of information in your direction?

    Maybe more broadly, how can one “be firm” without being too firm? I am historically not assertive enough, and struggle to find the right balance.

    1. Asenath*

      Someone who started working with me was reviewing my emails (to get an idea of how I approached doing a job she was starting) said once, obviously trying to be tactful, that some of my emails were, er, direct! It did take me a while to try to get the balance. In my job, I prefer to communicate by email, and in fact, for almost all the contacts I have, email is also their preferred method. My work is also often fairly low priority for them although high priority for me (since that’s what I’m paid to do). So, some things that helped me find the balance:
      1. Make sure my emails are very clear, short and to-the-point – put information in the subject line (eg Request for Form XX), say specifically what you want and when you want it. Invent the deadline if needed, based on your own deadlines.
      2. Follow-up on a regular basis. Set a schedule if necessary – always keep records of when you contacted them and what the result was. You say you’re doing this; maybe shifted the frequency would help.
      3. No response after a follow-up or two? Look into different methods of communication – perhaps Fergus routes everyone through his secretary’s email or Mary prefers texting (I’ve got one who only responds to faxes and phone calls!) If your target does have a personal secretary, contact that person very politely and ask for suggestions. A secretary can be an invaluable contact. Start offering concessions – “I can come by your office on Monday morning to pick it up” etc.

      Rinse and repeat. And grow a thick skin; no one likes to be a nag, but dammit if I’m paid to be a nag, I’m going to be an effective one, and not be put off by being ignored.

  207. Jamie with a J*

    In school, I was the person who would study for 20 minutes and get an A+ on the test and the hugest grade in the class, while everyone else spent 8 hours studying the day before to get Bs. It’s weird I thought work life would be any different. I guess I assumed jobs are universally hard and only the top .01% of people got office jobs. Lol. Well I was really late to realize it, but now I understand better how to live in an office environment. It’s the same. That “hard job” that takes someone else 8 hours + overtime takes me an hour to do just as well. I didn’t realize the advice about keeping a low profile was pertinent to me. But jobs aren’t there to entertain or fulfill me. They’re there because there’s a need in the marketplace that needs to be filled. The sooner I realize that, the better off I’ll be.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      Weird thing to humblebrag about. Congrats on being Josh Baskin at McMillian Toys I guess? Say hi to Jon Lovitz for me!

    2. !*

      Maybe the job you have is too easy? I work in IT, and there is no way I could do my job in an hour or even 8. What exactly do you do?

      1. Jamie with a J*

        Maybe… I dunno. I can’t really afford to go back to school though. How’d you get into that? I do admin work

        1. peace out*

          You don’t know how to get into IT? Maybe you could study for 20 minutes and become an expert?

    3. Julie*

      In my experience, people with nowhere near enough work to do are often in that situation because their work is very poor quality, or they require excessive hand-holding, or they’re otherwise exhausting to deal with, so they stop getting assigned work.

      It’s also my experience that brilliant people get more than enough work, of advanced nature, very quickly.

      I don’t know anything about your situation so maybe you’re genuinely unusual. But self-reflection is good for everybody.

    4. BBQ Sauna*

      Ha, no. Every single person I’ve known and worked with who did the whole “8 hours of work in 1 hour” thing was a consistently poor performer who did not understand the full extent of their job and yet were insufferably smug about it. Every. Single. One.

      Maybe you’re the sole exception and you truly are an amazing performer who would change the corporate world as we know it, but… I’m going to call BS. You’re either terrible at your job, or lying (and this is even worse, because you don’t realize that lying about this makes you look like a terrible worker)

  208. CoastEast*

    Does any of AAM veteran or contractor reader’s have any advice for someone moving from military work to civilian field, especially if the military work isn’t really that transferable? I’d rather not start back at the bottom of the entry level jobs after working at my paygrade for so long — but I also can’t stay military. I’m too burnt out and can’t deal with “the life” anymore. I’m also a nontraditional student and may not have a associates by the time I graduate, which is my biggest worry.

    Most of the tips I see are generic “.mil” sites or from TAPS but they don’t really fill me with any hope or confidence because they’re so bland and obvious.

    I really love this blog and find everyone’s comments useful on a weekly basis!

    1. Anono-me*

      Have you looked at federal jobs? Veterans and military service preference make a difference. They also can positively impact your retirement.
      Pretty much anything you would ever want to do in the private sector, also exists in the federal government world. I believe it’s under usajobs.gov

    2. Pam*

      Are you currently taking classes? Try looking for your possible future school- where you will earn your bachelor’s degree- or even just schools in your area, and look for Veterans Resources. They should be able to give you guidance. The trick is to look at and list out your transferable skills and accomplishments, not just your military job codes.

      As someone who approves Veteran student admissions, the associates degree is nice, but if you have the right courses, that’s what matters. (And I or any veteran-friendly school should be willing to piece together work from multiple community colleges and your JMT.)

      Good Luck!

      1. CoastEast*

        I am taking courses right now (and Clepping, Clepping, Clepping), but its been surprisingly difficult to finish a degree with all the little caveats we have to follow (it takes a year+ to complete all pre-reqs before getting TA, TA ran out before the FY). This is the first time I’ve heard of classes mattering more than the full degree though, which definitely gives me hope! I keep hearing BAs don’t count for much more than a “tick” in the box for a lot of employers, so I was definitely fretting on the AS.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      I’m going to supply a link in my next post (which will make it go to moderation, so you won’t see it right away) to a site I think you should consider looking at, which is The Resume Place. The site is geared toward helping people who want to apply for federal civilian jobs, so if you are not interested in doing this, obviously it’s not the site for you. However, at the top of the homepage, you can click on the “Vets” selection, and it will take you the services (sorry, not all are free) that they supply to active duty or transitioning service members (one of which looks like a link to the resume builder on USAJOBS).

      In all honesty, I used their resume re-write service way back in 2003, and it was terrible, but I understand they’ve gotten better writers since then, so don’t take my word for this. Also, Resume Place has written a number of editions of its how-to-write-a-federal-resume guidebook, which is so popular, I’d bet a copy is available at your public library. (If it’s not, you should ask for a copy on Interlibrary Loan. If you don’t know how that service works, go to your nearest public library branch, and ask about it at the reference desk, and they can walk you through that process.) If you want a new copy, I think you can order one from the site for a reasonable cost.

      If you do not already belong to a veterans organization (e.g., Veterans of Foreign Wars), you might want to consider looking up local vet-oriented group(s) on the internet and see if any of them provide resume re-write services. I’ve never heard of anyone who did this, but if I were in your shoes, I would be checking out that hunch, as I’m the kind of person who would leave no stone unturned in my quest. I’d do this if I was having some difficulty describing the civilian equivalents for some of my military duties/responsibilities.

      Help is out there, but it’s going to be in more than one place, unfortunately. Good luck!

        1. CoastEast*

          Wow, Thanks!! This is much more in-depth than all those “prep for civilian life” articles the military provides!

  209. CSR by Day*

    I don’t know if there’s any advice anyone can offer, or if this is just a post to let me vent. I work mostly on the phone as a CSR in, let’s say, financial services. As part of my employer’s efforts to prevent fraud and to protect our customer’s personal information and identities we are required to ask our customers a lot of personal information in order to verify their identities before we release any information to them.

    I have had a handful of calls from people who I believe were attempting to commit fraud because the information they provided was so ridiculously far away from what we had on record, and in those cases I was glad that I didn’t give them any information. But mostly I am just flabberghasted at how casual and forgetful some of our customers are with important personal information. Mostly, it is information they provided to us when they first set up their accounts with us. But they don’t seem to remember it. And so very often they don’t keep us updated with name changes or address changes. I get a lot of calls from small businesses where the bookkeeper will call us and I can’t give information to that person because they’re not the person listed on the account and we don’t have any power-of-attorney or other document giving us permission to release information to the person (the bookkeeper) calling. Often the bookkeeper will be the spouse of the person in whose name the account is set up under.

    It is frustrating for them, because I can’t verify their identities and provide them with the information they seek, and frustrating for me to have to deal with their anger.

    1. Anono-me*

      May I suggest having the generic paperwork for getting someone authorized on an account at your organization handy and ready to fax or e-mail to the person calling. (If you don’t already.)

      Also I believe there’s something called a ‘medallion’ where the bank will basically stand as guarantor for the unknown person. It’s apparently really complicated and not cheap to do, but it will expedite access. You might want to find out if your company will accept a medallion and if so what the requirements are. Now I don’t believe that any of your customers will ever be interested in getting a medallion authorization from their Bank, but it kind of takes the wind out of their sails for complaining about it being super important that they get access and you not being helpful.

    2. Morning Reader*

      I don’t know what personal info you are referring to, but if it involves remembering how “security questions” were answered last time, I fervently wish that type of “security” would be dropped. There has to be a better way. It is very common to not remember your third grade teacher’s name even if you knew it last time, or what you thought was your favorite band or color, or even the color of your first car. (Did I say tan, or brown, last time?) the only way I can remember these things is to write them down, and that pretty much destroys the “security” anyway. Even “mother’s maiden name” when a large percentage of mothers do not have “maiden names” and even if they did, there would be a public record of it somewhere. Find a better way to set up accounts and stop making your customers do all the work of accessing their own info.
      Apologies if this is not what you are referring to. But if your customers consistently have problems with your procedures, your procedures are the problem.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree that it sounds like too much work for the customers. How much information are you requiring for them to prove who they are? Of course, that’s probably out of your control…

      2. CSR by Day*

        My employer isn’t asking those (favorite color, first car, etc.) kind of security questions. I’m dealing with business customers, although usually small businesses. Aside from asking people’s full legal name, SSN and DOB, I have to ask them to questions about their businesses.

        When was the account opened and what phone number was used when the account was opened? If the address doesn’t match, I ask about previous addresses. Has the business ever operated under a different name? The dreaded, “How is the business set up for tax purposes?” (Many of the callers have no idea and then I have to ask additional questions.) What is the caller’s position or title in the business?

        It gets really confusing for callers because they are supposed to state a position that directly corresponds to how the business is set up. If the business is a corporation they need to know what kind of corporation. (S-Corp. or C-Corp.) and to have a corporate title and be able to bind for the corporation. (Many of the caller don’t know what “bind” means.) “Owner” is NOT a corporate title and not an acceptable answer if the business is a corporation or a partnership, but it works if the business is a sole-proprietorship.

        It’s really stressful trying to remember to get all the details in response to the questions, as well as having to deal with the customers who don’t know the answers. I can guide the conversation and provide examples of appropriate answers, but I’m not supposed to “feed” them answers and that can be a fine line.

        All of the calls are recorded and then they are randomly reviewed. I’ve been “dinged” for accepting inappropriate titles and for other small things. Not asking for the caller’s full legal name (not asking their middle name or initial, letting them use a nickname “Jack” for “John”, and for not getting “Jr.” or “Sr.” as part of their name), for not getting the full business name (leaving off “Corp.” or “Inc.” or “LLC” at the end of the business name), or for not getting a full address (not asking about the suite or unit numbers or not specifying if it was a “street” or “avenue”).

        When you ask someone their full legal name, you do think they would remember to include “Junior” or “Senior” and things like that. “Is that your full legal name? Is there anything more to your name? Anything that comes after the name that you’ve told me?”

        1. WellRed*

          I couldn’t begin to answer these questions on a personal account, let alone calling on behalf of someone for a business. When was it opened? Addresses and phone numbers at the time? Yikes!

          1. blaise zamboni*

            It sounds like they have to ask for addresses and phone numbers at time of opening the account because the business fails to update that information when it changes. So they call in, provide the current address and phone number, but CSR has totally different information on file so they prompt them, “Are there any previous addresses?” etc. That’s really a problem on the business’ side. Plus what business doesn’t keep records of their prior locations and account information? That’s super disorganized and short-sighted IMO.

            The questions about tax and corporate classification are not intuitive, but if you hire a bookkeeper, maybe you should provide them with that info and make sure they understand the process? Just spitballing here.

            The whole situation sounds really frustrating for you, CSR! Customer service is hard enough when you’re actively giving clients what they want.

        2. Morning Reader*

          Apologies re my misinterpretation! I veered into a tangent based on “personal information” that was entirely off base. No real advice for your actual situation but I wonder if it would help to send an email with a list of the questions they need to be able to answer when they call. Or put it on your website, “please be prepared with the following.”
          Will save my rant about ineffective and cumbersome security procedures for another occasion. …

        3. Margaret*

          As some one who has to pull those types of facts out of people (tax preparer), it’s kind of amazing how many people who should, really don’t understand what their business set up really is or how it works/what roles are supposed to be involved!

          Do you have information provided, either on your website (along with your phone number) or maybe given while people are waiting on hold, that says “please have X, Y, and Z, available to validate your identity once you are talking with a representative”? I think while it makes sense those are pieces of information people should have, and if they’re truly authorized should be able to track down, they’re also things many people won’t recall off hand, so if you’re not already I think trying to give people a heads up would help decrease frustration. (At least for things like the exact tax entity classification… if people can’t remember that Jr is part of their legal name I think there’s just no helping them!)

  211. Pathfinder Ryder*

    What are some ways to stay engaged when you’re understimulated? If I’m just listening to people talking in meetings or my work-paid language class, I tend to start getting sleepy and/or zoning out after half an hour, even when I’m genuinely interested in the topic.

    Things I’ve tried or had suggested elsewhere:
    – Fidget spinner: I have one and usually bring it along, but it’s not always enough
    – Doodling: I am not much of a doodler, and in class we’re not allowed pen and paper during the “books down, listening and speaking” immersion sections I sometimes have problems with
    – Knitting: I haven’t knitted before and have a feeling I’d have to try it on my own first otherwise I’d be completely absorbed by it in company, but I’m intrigued
    – Stress ball/something squishy: Will acquire a stress ball and try this out
    – Pipe cleaners: These were on the table for people to make stuff if they needed to at a course I took once that was more sensitive to the needs of adult learners, and it worked pretty well for me, but I figure it might not look so great in meetings
    – Coffee: Not a fan
    – ADHD medication: Can’t afford diagnosis (there’s only a couple of adult ADHD specialists in my area who are prohibitively expensive privately and my symptoms aren’t bad enough to qualify to have one funded)

    1. Anono-me*

      I find it helpful in meetings if I’m allowed to stand. You do have to plan ahead and wear good shoes.

      I will also do a modified relaxation technique where you tense up your toes for 10 seconds and then relax and pretend and then do your arches, and then your ankles and then your calves Etc up until you’re getting close to what would be visible over the table.

      You might also want to consider some fidget jewelry. You can get rings specifically designed for this.

      I know you said coffee doesn’t appeal to you, but have you experimented with a variety of hot and cold teas?

      Good luck.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I am all about people learning to knit, but if fiddling with pipe cleaners will look bad, knitting will look worse in meetings.

    3. Quandong*

      Firstly, you aren’t the only person who has this reaction – I once fell asleep during a meeting (luckily I was at the back of the room!).

      I’m really sorry that there is a restriction on pen & paper during certain parts of the class. This would cause problems for a lot of people who function better with visual learning or multimodal learning. Are you in a position where you can request accommodations so you can learn effectively based on your strengths rather than being forced into something that leads you to zone out?

      My suggestions (apart from seeking a change to this restriction in class) are to pay attention to your breathing and your temperature. If I’m too warm I get sleepy really fast. If I start breathing a certain way I also feel sleepy – I’ve sometimes used a folding paper fan to help wake myself up. Or I’ll take very cold water into a meeting and sip it when I start to lose focus.

      If you have the inclination you might also like to check out other sensory toys apart from fidget spinners and stress balls – you might come across a few things that would fit your work environment without drawing attention to them. Also, there will be some good links to methods that people use to manage environments like classrooms where they are expected to stay in the room for long periods of time. I hope you find some ideas that work for you.

    4. only acting normal*

      Half an hour is a normal attention span, not particularly indicative of ADHD (not to rule that out either). It’s why training or teaching is supposed to change activity about that often (from passive listening to doing a consolidation activity, or discussion, for example).
      It’s also the reason day-long death-by-powerpoint meetings should be outlawed immediately. ;)

      1. Disco Janet*

        +1 to this. I’m a teacher, and we’re frequently reminded (during trainings that drag on for hours without a break…ahem) that attention spans are generally about one minute for one year in age. (That stops at some point though, of course.)

  212. They are making a bad decision and it's driving me crazy*

    I am burnt out and worried. I’d like to use my usual name here, but too many details might connect me to the current situation. I just spent almost 80 hrs this week, to finalize my part of a very large counter-proposal. The whole thing is a boondoggle (some VP somewhere thinks we ought to shift to X and replace part of our function, because X’s sales group sold them a bill of goods. Truthfully). Much cash and many hours of labor have gone into an analysis of whether this would work or not. Trust me, it’s a huge step backwards.
    But the other group – who do not understand the fundamentals of technology – literally do not have logic or any technical experience. (here, we call them stakeholders).

    This would be a permanent marriage of code, and make the last 5 years of my work career – which I was looking forward to – resemble one of Dante’s circles. The sales company has clearly underbid, and the babes in the woods group think that all these promises are free. That eight to nine digits worth of code can be revised in 9 months, and still be as good (with let’s just say dozens of interaction points where things go wrong – bad end results in our world can cause death). Apparently, only some of us suspect that it is the subsequent change orders and consulting fees (which we believe sales company is counting on) that are the draw.

    So how do I get past this? Literally, the stakeholder group managers sat down and picked apart the counter-proposal, saying “oh, that’s not true… sales group PROMISED to make it work… the discussion we recorded proves it will work, just because they won’t let you look at their code and don’t have it working for any other customer, doesn’t mean you can say they do not have it…”

    I don’t know whether to start working on my resume – because as the resident subject matter expert, I’m going to be stuck as the liaison. I already am talked over, marginalized, and ignored in the conversations – except when the two men who think they know everything who are managing the “vendor application” for the sales group need to know something from me. The rest of the time? Minimized

    I hate politics. I came out of software sales (I was not selling, but worked with the type), and I am not trustful. (No disrespect to any of the good ones on here… ). I am passionate about fairness and justice, and that’s why I came to work for this non-profit. (I could make 2x a year more “outside” doing what I do… but love making a difference.) Or I did love it.

    Just… worried. I had finally gotten, in my career, to where I am really good at what I do, and thought I’d be able to make a difference in people’s lives. This pending decision… it will set the entire bit back three years, and it won’t really recover until I retire. If ever. And waste the money of hardworking people.

    How do I deal with the anxiety and let this go? Has anyone ever had to live with your company contemplating a huge bad decision? How have you been able to calmly absorb the fact that the right decision – that you fought for – may be derailed because someone at the top simply is listening to the wrong people?

    I know I need to let this go. I literally cannot sleep. I know it is like waiting to hear on a job. Some things are now out of my control. How do I not scream at the limited understanding they have, of the ramifications of this?

    Sigh. Give me strength. This is going to be a long week.

    1. WellRed*

      Why wouldn’t you start looking for a new job? They disregard you and are making a big mistake. Walk away and let them burn it to the ground.

    2. not today.*

      It’s time to look for a new job. Take one that makes 2x on the ‘outside’. Then retire, and volunteer.

      1. They are making a bad decision and it's driving me crazy*

        I think there is fear or anxiety – call it what you will – on my part. I’m afraid that I won’t interview well. (I’ve been in this department for over a decade, and the last time I tried to even transfer out, my confidence was shaken by a horrible, mean interviewer…. and that was an internal interview).

        I’m very confident that I know what I’m doing “here” but am so very afraid that it won’t translate. I have that decade of credibility, knowing the history, how to get things done… that’s part of the reason for my success.

        And, I am afraid of the ageism. I’m in an industry where young males abound. That’s part of what is wrong here – there is an assumption that we do not know what we are doing because we are not fast enough (it’s knowing that you have to test code before you release it… this is not a video game), hidebound, and to a certain, unspoken extent – there is ageism and sexism in almost every other place I’ve heard about. No one realizes how old I am, but they know I am at least 10-15 older than they are.

        So, yeah. I am so very afraid that having risen up through the ranks, with a proven track record, won’t be of value elsewhere. That my strengths – strategic insight and amazing collaboration and encouragement skills – won’t translate. I loathe interviewing. But I could start by looking inside (it’s a big place,and I’ve been told everyone realizes what a circus it is over here). There’s nothing quite like what I do, but I am well regarded (I’ve been told).

        That would be a good baby step. It wouldn’t hurt. I may have done all I can to help the mission in this corner of the universe.

          1. NoLongerYoung*

            Thank you. I was really planning to retire from here, so it’s a hard mental shift to make. On the other hand, my mental health and happiness are worth something. I don’t have to make 2x as much… I just want to enjoy what I do again (I did up until now) and be respected when I do add value.
            I kicked in another 8 hrs revising it again today online, one more call tomorrow, then done. I hope. Then we will see. It is a lot like waiting to hear on a job!

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      I am not technically qualified to offer any useful advice, so the only possible thing I can think of that might even remotely help you get through to the decision makers is to create some synthetic data in a sandbox and execute some “light” (as in, not-too-detailed) simulations on it to give them all some idea of what you think the consequences are. Regression testing on a replicated subset of some part of your data might also work, but honestly, I’m with everyone else upthread: you should get out of there as fast as possible.

      As suggested above, please consider scheduling those “babystep interviews” for positions you’re marginally interested in but could say no to w/o feeling bad about it. Doing that would be a good way to get your confidence up, and to get more comfortable with how the interview process has changed from 10 years ago, before you start applying for the positions you’re really seriously interested in.

      Good luck, and please keep us posted about how you are doing.

  213. Katie*

    I recently had a job offer but the title was changed from director to senior manager but having all the perks and same responsibilities of the higher position. I was told the reason for the change was that they are now bringing in two people in to support the growth of a new business unit at Manager level. On paper with the new title the move from my current level seems like another lateral move. I have all the same level experience as all of the other directors and more exp than the position asked for. There also aren’t many women in leadership roles currently. While I like to be a team player this change doesn’t sit well with me.

    Am I being to sensitive? How should I bring this up with the hiring manager?

    1. WellRed*

      I would say what you have here, about your experience level. Not sure why they feel a need to downgrade the title in this case.

      1. Just Another Manic Millie*

        I think it’s possible that they downgraded the title because they don’t want a woman as a director, but senior manager is okay. It’s also possible that this was a bait-and-switch, that they wanted what they hoped would be a better caliber of applicants for the job of director than they would get for the job of senior manager.

  214. fingers crossed*

    I know this is very late to this post and probably no one will see it but I think I am in the final stages of getting a new job after a very long search and I AM SO EXCITED! I know, I know, I should not be, I should be calm…but I can’t help it. I’ve had two phone screens, one series of in-person interviews with three people, and they want me back again next week to meet two more people in the department. In fact that’s why I am up at 6 am on a Saturday – I am positively giddy at the fact that I may be able to give notice soon and move on to a lovely place with great work life balance doing something back within my skill set. Oh yes, and making more money. Win-win-win.

    Anyway, have a great day everyone!

  215. A Reader*

    Hello, group! What’s a good way to translate transferable job skills for a role that’s completely different from my day job?

    Let’s say that I’m a llama trainer, and the job includes skills like attention to detail, customer service, etc. How can I make it clear to a hiring manager that these skills can fit for a role in, say, juggling oranges? I’ve looked at job descriptions that look completely within reach, but are in industries that I’ve never worked in before.

    1. Gilmore67*

      Well, your 2 jobs here are completely different in that juggling oranges does not require even talking to people. So I am not sure if you are just being facetious with that, simply making the point of 2 completely different jobs.

      But to answer your basic question on how to transfer skills to other unrelated jobs, you need to show more ( in your scenario) how you handled your llama grooming job duties and tasks not the task itself.

      There is a difference in ” I brushed the llama snarls out of it fur… ” and ” The brushes we were using were not working well for get the snarls out so I Googled llama brushes and was able to get more effective brushes. I also was able to get a discount because I bought them in bulk. It also resulted in the llama looking better and our customers were really happy”

      Also, how did you handle an unhappy customer? Did you redo the llama grooming? Is there a procedure that needed to be changed? Did you initiate that change?

      How did you make sure all aspects of grooming the llama were done right? Was there a manual? A check off list? And if so, did you partake in making that list?

      So the llama grooming is not the focus, but how you did the job, solved the problems, initiated change and so on. Those are transferable skills.

      Does this help? I hope I made sense.

      1. A Reader*

        Yes, I was definitely being facetious. :)

        Thank you for the insight! You raised some good points, and I plan to incorporate them.

  216. Retail not Retail*

    My mom told me I’ll end up homeless if I let sexist coworkers get under my skin because they’re a part of every job, welcome to the real world etc.

    I had a minimum wage job for 4 years – I didn’t deal with what I’m dealing with at this job. This job is micro aggressions from a 72 year old so I’m just the crazy one.

    1. WellRed*

      Sexism is not part of every job. If you can’t do anything about the sexism, can you do something about your response to it?

    2. MatKnifeNinja*

      Well…mom is sort of right.

      The difference with minimum wage jobs is the sexists nonsense is straight out in front, but you can tell the offender to fawk the hell off to their face.

      White collar jobs, I’ve had to tip toe around, be Sunday parlor polite, and hope to hell I don’t get stabbed in the back because of it.

      In a past life I detailed cars. The manager had a Hustler calendar in his office, in all it naked glory. I managed to have him switch it out to a Sports Illustrated style swim suit calendar. This was 1984, and by the grace of God he did it with minimal complaining.

      Fast forward 20 years, I damn near needed to sue to get my coworker to remove his pornographic mouse pad and screen saver from his work computer. I sat one desk behind him, and had to see that all-day-long.

      I’m 55. If I got $5 dollars everyttime a sexists/racist act happened to me, I could buy an island for you and one for me. We could both retire in style! Lol..

      I wish “We’ve always done it this way”, “Does it really matter?”, and “You’re too sensitive” wasn’t an automatic default answer when issues are brought up. Hang in there!

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        So late to this thread, but yes, I agree with MatKnifeNinja. These folks exist in every job. And realistically, no matter how patient or able to speak intelligently or angry or assertive you may be, you’re never going to change a 72 year old’s views. They grew up in a different time with different values and different social standards, and no matter your reaction, be it positive or negative, he will likely never see the problem with his comments/actions. Sorry you have to deal with this, but as another commenter said, you can tell him to eff off to his face.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, Mom is sort of right.

      No matter where you work, or what level you’re at, you will encounter someone who is a raging jerk. Could be sexist, could be racist, or could just be a power mad moron.

      You have to learn to pick your battles and ignore some of the rest. I use a level system (scale of 1 to 10 how much impact) it had on my life or others. But if it is blatant or threatening definitely report it.
      I doubt you’re being overly sensitive, but I often struggle with the “I fight authority, authority always wins” syndrome myself and have quit several jobs over things. I prepare for that eventuality now, and always have my exit strategy in mind, because working in America can suck.

    4. Close Bracket*

      They are not part of *every* job, but they are part of some jobs, and apparently, they are part of your current job. You *can* address them with things like, “Wow.” and “Is that right?” I don’t want to minimize the toll that these micro aggressions take, but you do have to learn not to dwell on them.

  217. Team Wolf*

    The end of October deadline for delivery of this project is not a new thing. This was discussed and agreed with you at the very beginning of the project and you reassured me that end of October deadline is achievable. I have been checking work progress with you on a regular basis and you have been consistently reassuring me that things are going according to the plan, and the project will be delivered on time without any issues. Hence, it was a big surprise to me to hear last week that this might not be the case. I did highlight to you many times during our previous meetings that it is critical for you to work well in the project team, collaborate and rely on other team members, and have a realistic understanding of your available time and work outputs that you can achieve during this time. I expected you to consider your work availability and public holidays when developing timelines for this (and any other ) project.

    I do understand that preparation of the proposal earlier was a time consuming process for you, however I did check with you during that process to see if the other project was progressing well, and again you did not raise any concerns. I do expect from you, and anyone else, to raise any concerns in a timely manner before things become too hard to manage or achieve so I can make appropriate resource plans. Please, I urge you again to be pro active and voice your concerns on time – we do not give orders here, we work together as a team consisting of smart and mature individuals.

    An ability to manage competing projects and priorities (professional and private) is an essential skill in any work place, in particular private consultancy. We all manage competing priorities on a daily basis, and many of us have been doing this for many years. I do understand that this skill is something you are still acquiring and will be improving as you progress in your career. However, we have previously talked on several occasions regarding your ambitions and desire to get involved more in projects. We agreed that when the work load is light you would focus on your Uni work, but when things get busy around here you would be available to fully dive in and get involved on many projects. You have highlighted your desire to be given more opportunities and responsibilities, and hence we were very excited when we finally had an opportunity to have you working on projects (or potential projects) that were exactly what you emphasized to be of interest to you. However, if you find involvement on multiple projects to be too hard to manage or too stressful, again, please let me know and we will organize your further workload accordingly.

    I am happy to discuss with you any issues that you might have with your current workload and performance.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        No. This is a conversation, not an email. You want answers and you want to stress how important this is, and you need to do that in person.

      2. LilySparrow*

        No, this amount of criticism just becomes a wall-of-text pile-on. The formality level actually makes it sound like a furious rant where you can barely contain yourself.

        Have the talk in person.

  219. hello*

    Hoping someone will see this, even though I’m kind of late here.

    Part of my job is fielding requests from customers, and I often have to ask questions to the rest of my team. This is normal and it’s not information I’m expected to already know. I do try to keep my questions as concise as possible and don’t cc people in unnecessarily. (It’s mostly done over email.)

    Most of my coworkers are happy to answer questions but one of them (manager level, although she isn’t my manager) seems like she’s getting increasingly annoyed whenever I need her input. She doesn’t fully read through everything I wrote and replies back with information I already took into account in my original question. The implication is that I should have caught these things (even though I did and she’s the one who misread.)

    I normally try to let these types of things go, but I do need answers. I’ve been trying to gently point out that I’m asking a different question without making her look bad. Any advice for wording/generally how to approach this?

    1. Reba*

      Any chance of having a chat in person with this person, where you name this pattern and ask her if there is a different way you could be writing or asking?

      Any insight from your manager or other person in the workplace you trust about how to work with her?

      1. hello*

        I guess it’s possible. We don’t meet regularly, but if it keeps happening I’ll talk to her. It was worse than usual this week, so maybe she’s just stressed out. Everyone in the office is kind of overloaded.

        My manager would definitely have my back, but he’s also very blunt when someone is wrong and I’m not sure he would handle this tactfully. I’ll have to think about who I can talk to.

    2. Kathenus*

      I’ve dealt with people like this. One thing that sometimes works is to re-format the way you write the email requests to make the question very explicit and easy to identify. Even if you think you do that, sometimes reformatting clicks in the other person’s brain better for some reason. So maybe an email like:

      Manager – customer is having trouble with their electric teapot not heating, and isn’t sure if it’s a problem with the cord or plug. My specific question is below.

      Question – Does the teapot get returned to the store, or to the manufacturer?

      Thanks for your help

      1. OtterB*

        I second this. My first attempt at writing emails tends to be too long because I’m explaining everything. I sometimes go back and pull out the specific question and put it at the top, then specify “background below”.

      2. hello*

        Thanks for the advice. What OtterB suggested below is how I’m actually doing it: question up front, then context afterwards. The problem is she’s not reading/understanding the context, and it seems like she’s only skimming the question for keywords.

        For example:

        Me: “Is a tomato considered a fruit or a vegetable in our system when used for non-cooking, non-scientific purposes?

        Customer wants to order tomatoes, but we have different processing systems for fruits and vegetables. If she were using them for cooking I know we would call it a vegetable and if she were using it for an experiment it would be fruit, but she’s going throw them at comedians.”

        Coworker: “If she’s cooking, it’ll be a vegetable.”

        1. Close Bracket*

          Hi Co-worker:

          The customer will be throwing *uncooked* tomatoes at the comedians. It is not part of a scientific experiment. How should I classify the tomatoes?

          Cheers,
          hello

          When I get those responses, I just want to scream, “Just answer the question I actually asked!”

        2. OtterB*

          I clicked “show me a random post” earlier today and got this one from Alison from a few years ago. It sounds like you’re doing this already anyway, though, so I’m not sure what else to suggest. I suppose you could try a “How can I better communicate with you” conversation.

  220. Anne Shirley*

    Hello fellow posters…need some advice on work outfit etiquette for ladies. Work is sending me and a few teammates to Sao Paulo, Brazil, for a couple of weeks very soon, our jobs are a crossover of management and engineering, we’ll be interacting with people from both the private and public sector. I was told that in Brazil male office employees, generally dress a notch above the business casual our North American office has..i.e. they are more likely to wear suit and tie every day. Anyone know if this is the same women? And even if you don’t, is it better for me to just assume that for women as well? I will be a presenter on several occasions and really don’t want to look out of place.
    Also..anyone know how persistent mosquitoes are in Sao Paulo? The travel clinic said to stick to long sleeves and light colours and strong insect repellent..I am good with light clothes and repellent..but temps are 30deg there these days…long sleeves sound unbearable at that temp.

    1. Reba*

      I don’t know. But I’d err on the side of nicer dress. Since you will be presenting, I don’t think it would be out of step to be a little more formally dressed than others, if that turns out to be the case.

      And yeah, the travel clinic’s advice is not always realistic for actual real life at the destination!

  221. Cady*

    How do I deal with a toxic (and low performing) coworker whom my manager won’t do anything about?

    I have a coworker, and I have spoken on here about them before, but my boss will do nothing about them and tells me to go to HR. My boss’s reasoning is that my coworker does all their work and meets their numbers. Period. The fact that my coworker is toxic as a presence in our workspace (which my boss agrees with!!) does not seem to factor in. The boss also said to me this coworker performs minimum expectations. So I guess that is all that is expected of us?

    So for these purposes and to cut down on confusion, I will use Regina as the name for my coworker.

    Regina is very much a gossip in our office, and she tends to be a bad influence–ie, planting drama seeds in all our minds (I have fallen for it a few times myself). Regina constantly (daily) speaks poorly of other coworkers and The Boss, as well as our clients and their families, who have disabilities. By “speaks poorly,” I mean uses derogatory terms that the disability community has labeled as slurs.

    Regina is very clearly burned out, but for some reason has not found another job and left (she has made it clear to anyone within hearing range that she is searching for a new job and does it on company computers during work for the past 6 months).

    I was very frustrated with her but tried to ignore her in order to not get involved with drama. Unfortunately, that has partly made me a target of some of her drama. Another coworker quit recently, and the day before she put in her resignation, she told me that Regina was unprofessional and a gossip, which was part of the reason she was quitting, because the fact that our company allows Regina to stay bothers her.

    I had to take over some of Regina’s previous work and have found that her work is not even up to par with standards that could cause legal problems with our company or cause us to lose money. I explained this to The Boss, making it clear I was only upset with Regina, and then put my complaint in an email to The Boss as documentation, reviewing what we spoke about on the phone. I didn’t go to HR about it–as I am trying to deal with the situation with Regina in the right way.

    So, do I need to document specific events of her using derogatory language about clients/staff before HR can take some kind of action? I am not the only one who feels this way about Regina, but no one seems to be willing to do much about it.

    1. valentine*

      What you really have is a boss problem, so, either you leave or he and Regina are a tolerable tax on your job.

      her work is not even up to par with standards that could cause legal problems with our company or cause us to lose money. I explained this to The Boss, making it clear I was only upset with Regina, and then put my complaint in an email to The Boss as documentation, reviewing what we spoke about on the phone. I didn’t go to HR about it–as I am trying to deal with the situation with Regina in the right way.
      It sounds like you needed to coddle the boss. What happens if he knows you’re upset he won’t manage or fire Regina? Why is going to HR not right? I would forward that email right to them, cc’ing the boss, with a “Please advise on the issue below.”

      So, do I need to document specific events of her using derogatory language about clients/staff before HR can take some kind of action?
      No. You can just explain the pattern and issues. I would start with the legal stuff, then the slurs, then the third most egregious (or switch the last two, because no one has saw fit to confront Regina over her bigotry toward the very people she makes money off of). I might leave the slurs out altogether, if HR would seize on them and, especially if you’re a woman, file it under “Catfight!” Also, documentation is a double-edged sword. Recent dates will be helpful, but there are people who will think you’re the problem for keeping a log of Regina’s actions.I’d be leaving because I don’t want slurs in my head and a boss who supports Regina is happy for me to suffer.

      1. Marley*

        You are right on all points. I felt that going to HR was not appropriate because I wanted my boss to handle the situation, but it’s clear it’s not going to happen. I really haven’t documented anything on Regina except for the email I sent–but boss seems to think I need specific events or that they need to be observed first hand. I even explained to my boss (!!!) that we are in an at-will state and what that means. That’s not something that should have to be explained.

  222. Wesley*

    I am coming in late here, but gonna try regardless.

    Here’s my question. What does being managed out look like, and how can you protect yourself against being managed out? I’m asking because I’m afraid I am being managed out myself (which is probably obvious).

    Here’s the backstory. I’ve been at this job for 2 and a half years. My old manager is in the process of transferring out to another department, and another guy from our department is being promoted into his role. The new manager is 3-4 years older than me and has correspondingly more experience, both in the industry at a whole and our company. But the problem is that we’ve never gotten along, and I don’t have a clue why he dislikes me. Up until he became my boss, this “just disliking me” has been small and petty things, like repeatedly inviting everyone but me in the department out for Friday lunch, and saying he “just forgot.” Almost every Friday.

    Now that he’s my boss he’s started doing things which give me the impression he’s building a paper trail to justify firing me with. He’s taken me off the interview panel and constantly berates me for a lack of initiative and ownership. When I ask him what he means, and for examples of what I could be doing better, his response will always be something like “do you realize how bad it looks that you need to ask me that question?” or “if you have to ask, you’ll never know.”

    Last week I was blocked on something I was working on, so I sent an email to someone I thought might have the files I needed and CC’d him. He pulled me aside and wrote me up for going around him and disrupting another person. So it feels like a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation.

    I’ve went to my old boss (still here, just in the process of leaving) with my concerns, and I don’t feel he addressed them. His response was that he hadn’t seen the behavior from my new boss that I was reporting. I could be doing something wrong, but I’m worried that my new boss is an expert at manipulating the system.

    So what do I do? I don’t think that I can get my new boss to like me, so I’ve updated my resume and I’m looking. But is it worth going to HR and pointing out that I’m being excluded from team events, etc. in the interest of delaying any action against me? I know it’s completely legal to fire someone because you don’t like them as a person unless you don’t like them because of a protected category, but I think it may help to build a paper trail to counter my boss’ and place doubt on his shady actions.

    1. Alianora*

      Can you talk to your boss’s boss about this? The refusal to tell you what you could be doing better is especially concerning.

    2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Ultimately, you can’t actually protect yourself against being managed out, as long as nothing illegal (or against company policy*) is going on.

      [*] And policy that is honored in the breach doesn’t count.

      Ordinarily, going over your boss’ head is a bad idea. In this case, you may have nothing to lose by going to HR…and you may also want to include your grandboss.

      As for your old boss: “I didn’t see Behavior X.” = “I don’t want to and/or can’t address Behavior X.”

      Good for you for updating your resume and starting to look. If anything, accelerate your job search. It’s a heckuva lot easier to get a job (especially a good job) when you already have one.

      Good luck!

      1. Wesley*

        Ordinarily, going over your boss’ head is a bad idea. In this case, you may have nothing to lose by going to HR…and you may also want to include your grandboss.

        I don’t think my grandboss will be useful. I didn’t mention this before, but my new boss and his boss are the same ethnicity, and I’m a different one. None of us are white. My mother’s family are Iranian Jews and my boss and his boss are Chinese.

        I didn’t mention this before, because I don’t think the way my new boss is treating me is ethnically motivated. Or at the least, my new boss is good at hiding that he doesn’t like people of my race. But it might be good to bring that up to HR tomorrow.

        As for your old boss: “I didn’t see Behavior X.” = “I don’t want to and/or can’t address Behavior X.”

        Sad to say but I’ve learned my old boss is kind of spineless. It makes sense — it isn’t good, it just makes sense — that he doesn’t want to get another manager mad at him, especially since my new boss is rising through the ranks faster than either of us.

        1. Alianora*

          Uh, I don’t see why your grandboss being the same ethnicity as your boss means you can’t go to him. You said your new boss is not ethnically motivated (and even if he was, that doesn’t mean your grandboss is), so it doesn’t seem like ethnicity has anything to do with this?

          1. valentine*

            I don’t see why your grandboss being the same ethnicity as your boss means you can’t go to him.
            Yeah. You can still go to HR, instead, but I wouldn’t point out the different ethnicities because they will harp on your lack of evidence and thus derail you. Focus on the lack of specifics/guidance, contradiction (saying you went around him when you cc’ed him), and exclusion.

            There’s no protection around illegal firing, just a possibility of standing to sue, which most people don’t have the resources to do. You wouldn’t have proof, anyway. Your manager can turn it around on you and say you didn’t take criticism well (the removal from hiring and the write-up) and made too much of an accidental slight (the lunches).

    3. Documentor*

      My wife just went through this with a recent regime change, and started getting the more aggressive part of passive-aggression and decided to call it a day as like you she didn’t have any effective support above. The clever thing she did was to cite a ‘hostile work environment,’ as a contributing factor. Got them off her back so she could leave gracefully, plus dented her boss’ ability to be more of a pain. Yeah, let your HR know about the long history and at least get it documented, but when the writing is on the wall it’s better to start acting on it.

      1. WellRed*

        Did your wife cite the hostile environment when she gave notice or did she lay some groundwork to buy some time? Wesley, sorry this is happening to you. I’ve seen it happen to two friends in exactly the same way. It sucked for them, totally unfair

  223. Documentor*

    My wife just went through this with a recent regime change, and started getting the more aggressive part of passive-aggression and decided to call it a day as like you she didn’t have any effective support above. The clever thing she did was to cite a ‘hostile work environment,’ as a contributing factor. Got them off her back so she could leave gracefully, plus dented her boss’ ability to be more of a pain. Yeah, let your HR know about the long history and at least get it documented, but when the writing is on the wall it’s better to start acting on it.

  224. Fleur*

    I have a full-time job. I don’t like my job and I am planning on quitting, once I have a new job lined up. I have been applying for other full-time jobs. A few employers have asked me how I would have time to work two full-time jobs. Why would they ask this? I thought it would be obvious that if I am applying for a full-time job, I am planning on quitting my full-time job.

    2. Chaordic One*

      I would think it would be obvious that you were going to quit your current job if you received an offer for a good job. Perhaps these employers have previously had employees who moonlighted and didn’t perform all that well because they were overtired from working 2 full-time jobs and the employer wants to make certain that this isn’t the case if they hire you.

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