open thread – October 25-26, 2019

by Alison Green on October 25, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Peaches*

    Yesterday, we had a customer come into our office who was super creepy, and I’m wondering how (or if) I should handle it differently next time.

    I work for a chemical supplier, and we occasionally have walk-in customers. I don’t usually deal with these customers, but it is my responsibility when my coworker is at lunch. While he was at lunch yesterday, an older man (probably mid 70’s) came in to pick up an order, so I went to the front counter to assist him. I am in my mid 20’s. During our whole interaction, he was staring at me intently and looking me up and down (for what it’s worth, I was dressed appropriately). When his order had been brought to him by our warehouse, I said “thank you!” expecting him to leave at that point. Instead, he lingered at the front counter, and said “you’re awfully purty, you know that?” I was grossed up, but figured I had to be cordial since he was a customer. So, I just forced a smile and said “have a nice day, sir.” He took a few steps towards our front door, and I thought he was finally leaving. Instead, he turns around and says. “you must have not heard me. I SAID you’re awfully purty.” He seemed offended that I hadn’t thanked him the first time, so I quietly said thank you, and he left.

    After he left, my manager (woman, mid 50’s) who was in her office (which is within ear shot of the pick up counter), started chuckling and said “Peaches, you’re awfully purty. All he wanted was a thank you!” She seemed halfway joking by indicating I should have thanked him the first time, but it still irked me. I just kind of laughed it off and moved on with my day.

    Now, I’m wondering if I should have said something differently to the customer, and/or my manager after the incident. I felt like I had to be polite to the customer, but it felt so gross to thank him for his unwanted comments. Any advice if this were to happen again?

    We had a customer a few years ago who was similarly creepy, and I dreaded seeing him walk through the front door. Similarly to how I felt yesterday, I felt powerless to call him our out for being inappropriate. Fortunately, he stopped coming in for whatever reason. Any advice?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You shouldn’t have said anything different. In fact, you were extremely professional, given the circumstances. Your manager, however, handled this badly. She should have had your back and told the customer that that’s not appropriate or acceptable. Yes, customers bring money to the company, but that shouldn’t give them free rein to harass employees.

      2. Just Elle*

        Agreed. I think re-framing this would help you. You’re not powerless. You absolutely would have been within your rights to tell him off if you wanted to. But you chose not to and thats the right call. You aren’t going to gain anything by going off on a guy like this, he’s certainly not going to learn any lessons from you saying something, and you don’t owe it to anyone to encourage any kind of hostile escalation when grinning and bearing it ended the situation much more quickly and in a polite manner.

        Still, I’m sorry people are sucky creeps.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Our corporate policy on harassment specifically calls out behavior by customers and vendors. Step 1: Uncomfortable employee or their observant co-worker tells management that the situation is inappropriate and needs to stop. Step 2: The manager should tell the vendor/customer/etc to stop. Step3: If manager doesn’t, go on up to HR.

        Good luck!

    2. Booksnbooks*

      I’m sorry this happened. I don’t have any advice to give, unfortunately. I think you handled it the best way you could.

    3. SuperAnon*

      Also think you handled it correctly. People are asses.

      Not thinking too highly of your manager right now tho…

    4. ACDC*

      Holy deja vu! I went through a VERY similar scenario when I was working at a steel manufacturer. A customer was behaving similarly to what you were describing and I was uncomfortable. I excused myself and asked one of my male coworkers to take over for me. I was ostracized by the owner of the company (a woman) because of my poor customer service skills. I explained how uncomfortable I was and she told me to get over my millennial entitlements. I put in my notice a month later.

        1. Zillah*

          I’ve gotten that, too – they weren’t calling me entitled, but they were basically saying “I have mixed feelings on MeToo, yeah some things are awful but some things are just how things are sometimes – I had my male boss proposition me during a long drive when I was in my 20s and say he didn’t care I was married. It’s not great but we shouldn’t overreact.”

          And like. Like. Like.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Oh yeah and it’s not a generational thing either.

            I have had people in our generation and even the younger crowd who are like “Argh, well look at what she was wearing” kind of stuff and all the “boys will be boys” hasn’t magically been dying out with the Greatest Gen and Boomers.

      2. Jill of All Trades*

        I’m sorry you had to wait a whole month to put in notice after experiencing that! How awful.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      I probably would have said, very pleasantly, “I heard you just fine, Have a good day sir!”
      I would have flat out laughed at the manager too.

      1. Tupac Coachella*

        I like this response, but with a flat stating-the-facts tone. FWIW, Peaches, I think your response was fine, but if you *want* to call him out (because I think in the context we live in, you in no way have a responsibility to do so, but you have every right to), something like “Please don’t comment on my appearance. Have a good day,” would still be professional and merited. He wouldn’t think so, but he’s a douche, soooo….

    6. Quinalla*

      I think you handled it as best you could, so don’t be too hard on yourself. If you are up for it, I’d talk to your manager. She should have supported you and talked to him, that shouldn’t be on you to do. Sorry your manager failed here, you should be able to go to your manager for support when something like this happens!

    7. No honey you're fine.*

      If I were your manager I would have your back on this. I would support you in saying “oh, I heard you. Have a good day now!”

      You are not obligated to discuss your appearance with anyone at work. You are not obligated to be flattered by people who comment on your appearance or your body. And you are totally allowed to make up code phrases that sound polite while blowing people off- “bless your heart” is a widely known example.

    8. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

      I don’t know if you have to call out the customer for this yet. It was an odd thing for him to say but not really crossing the line yet. You could have pushed your manager more. Tell her the comments made you uncomfortable and if it escalates she will need to step in. You should add that she may have not noticed that he had been leering throughout your interaction.

      1. NextTimeGadget*

        It’s absolutely inappropriate for an old man to stare lecherously at a young woman, and then essentially demand to be thanked for an undesired comment on her physical appearance. The line is crossed if you’re uncomfortable, and there’s nothing rude about being clear that someone’s made you uncomfortable. This thinking that women should quietly sit by and be silently uncomfortable because “it’s not that bad” needs to go.

        1. AdminX2*

          Agreed on the inappropriate. Calling out a customer service person on their appearance is already bad. Making a comment and acting entitled to force a response is disgusting.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I feel obligated to point out that it doesn’t matter the age or the genders: It’s absolutely inappropriate for *anyone* to stare lecherously at an employee. And for them to demand to be thanked on the inappropriate comment too.

      2. Fact & Fiction*

        I disagree that it didn’t cross any lines yet. It absolutely crosses the line for any customer to make unsolicited comments on a customer service person’s appearance. Then the act of demanding that person say “THANK YOU” for the unsolicited comment stomps all over the line until there is no longer a clearly visible line. Which is kind of the point from the person making the comment’s point of view. There is a dynamic of power in it coming from an older male customer toward a younger female customer service representative as well, for several reasons.

        People in professional environments should be able to expect to do their jobs without having random comments about their attractiveness inserted into work situations, full stop. This goes double for women who are so often made to feel like they should LIKE being complimented on their appearances, should just be grateful, and SMILE MORE.

        OP, I think you handled this as well as you could have under the circumstances. I’m so sorry your manager joked it off rather than taking it seriously.

      3. Chrysanthemum's The Word*

        Sexual harassment is not about the intent it’s about how it makes the victim feel. We all get to determine for ourselves what that line is.

        1. Kendra*

          This +100. It’s not about where anyone else thinks the line is; it’s the person who’s actually in that situation who gets to make that call.

    9. Jennifer*

      I’m sorry that happened. I don’t think you did anything wrong. Maybe you can revisit things with your manager today and let her know how uncomfortable it made you and ask for her support the next time it happens, whether that’s asking for a customer to leave or even telling them their business is no longer welcome if they are a repeat offender.

      In her defense, I think that she has seen so many men behaving this way, maybe was treated the same way herself when she was younger, so she’s kind of desensitized to how it feels. Not saying that makes it okay, but she may not be a terrible person. She may just be in need of a wake-up call.

    10. pleaset*

      I’m responding to critique the manager. The old guy was a creep. The manager was terrible to sort of exacerbate it. There are creeps in the world among customers, but colleagues not having your back is terrible.

      OP – you did well I think.

    11. Chili*

      You handled it as best as you could. I think in every creeper situation we search for the perfect way to respond, but the truth is that creepers are breaking the social contract (knowingly or not) in such a way that makes it very difficult to respond. Saying thank you is the best way to get them to stop and leave, but it affirms their behavior in an icky way that always makes me feel complicit.

      Your manager didn’t handle it very well. It’s possible she was laughing at the dark humor of the matter (saying “you’re awfully purty” is a weird/cringey/funny phrase), but it is sexual harassment and she should have asked if you were alright or, better yet, intervened on your behalf since she could hear what was happening.

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What? No. This isn’t acceptable.

      Also laughing off harassment by a customer is a good way to get the entire company in hot water, we have to protect our employees from outside sources of harassment as well…not just internal. So your manager needs some frigging training, laughing is not the appropriate response. The response is to flag this customer as an issue and to have others available to escort him out the next time he comes in and if he tries to pull any shenanigans.

    13. Forestdweller*

      Ew, I’m sorry you’re dealing with that kind of grossness at work. I work in more casual environments and I try to say something like “Well, pretty doesn’t have anything to do with getting the job done! Have a great day!” or “That’s a weird compliment, I thought you’d appreciate the great service!” in a bight, upbeat tone. Granted, there are managers who won’t love that response as it’s not “customer service-y” enough, but if you were to get push back from the manager, you say something like “I understand- I don’t want our customers to feel uncomfortable. I also don’t want anyone-customers or employees- to comment on my physical appearance, as that makes me feel uncomfortable, which shouldn’t happen at a job. How can we handle this?” Hopefully that would be a nice way to imply that there could be bigger issues if they DON’T address the way customers are behaving. Best luck!

    14. Mama Bear*

      If she makes light of it again or you can’t shake it, I would tell my manager, “I know it didn’t seem like much from your perspective, but for the record, I felt very uncomfortable with that customer’s behavior. I was not impolite to him, but I don’t think I should have to thank a customer for unwanted attention. I want to be clear that I don’t find it funny.” I don’t think there was anything wrong with what you initially said to the customer.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        This, exactly: “I felt uncomfortable, and I was not impolite to him, but I don’t think I should have to thank a customer for unwanted (and inappropriate) attention” is EXACTLY right.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I’m An Old™ (48) and I have never, ever understood what goes on in some rando stranger’s head who gives you a rando compliment out of nowhere and then has an expectation that you will then thank them for said rando comment.

    15. #1 The Larch*

      Ugh, that sucks. I’m sorry your manager didn’t back you up. No one should have to deal with harassment.

      I have an anecdote. I often have a “boomer-aged” caller who every time I speak with him calls me “hun” or “sweetie.” It’s an irritant, but with my phone demeanor I usually just ignore it. He’s very pleasant otherwise and has given me praise for my phone etiquette so I just ignore it. One of these days I think I’ll say, “my name is ‘Larch’ sir. Have a nice day!”

    16. ResuMAYDAY*

      When I was a kid, a neighbor was helping me train a new puppy. I kept talking to this puppy in a high-pitched, baby voice and not surprisingly, the puppy just kept playing and ignoring. The neighbor told me, “Use your low voice.” I did, and the puppy immediately paid attention and started to learn.
      So now, I share this advice with you. Use your low voice. When a customer comes in and says something obnoxious, don’t quietly demur. Firmly say, “thank you for your order. Have a good day.”
      Train the puppies. That’s the only way they learn. When you’re strong enough to do this, your manager would realize her ridiculous input isn’t needed.

      1. Nesprin*

        I am guessing this was not your intent but I got a strong its your fault for being sexually harassed from this comment.
        OP should not have to deal with these comments at work, and if she does, her boss should step in. It doesn’t matter how she was dressed, or how she spoke or whether she was too friendly or not friendly enough.

        1. Millie*

          I agree with you, Nesprin. I’m a soft-spoken non-confrontational person. I encounter creepy pervs weekly, and they shouldn’t be compared to sweet puppies. (My pup is on my lap right now.)

          1. pancakes*

            I’m not particularly non-confrontational, and even so it can be startling when someone says or does something inappropriate, and very difficult to respond in the moment. This incident reminds me of a guy who was ringing me up in a health food store and said, as I was putting my card back in my wallet, “If I was 20 years younger I’d be chasing you around the store!” He clearly thought he was giving me a compliment. I was so taken aback by it, I just made an awkward sort-of-laugh noise and left. On other, similar occasions I’ve been able to get it together to respond more forcefully than that, but it’s not always possible. Some interactions are just too weird too fast.

        2. Roverandom*

          I didn’t read it that way. Of course the creepy customer should not have treated OP that way, and OP handled it the best they could in the moment. There is nothing OP could do to prevent him from being creepy. But maybe the customer wouldn’t have repeated his gross comment if OP had responded more strongly and firmly. It might make OP feel less helpless in the future to know that it’s OK to take a firmer stand with customers, which is what OP was asking for advice on.

        3. ResuMAYDAY*

          Nesprin and Millie, are you two serious? (Trust me, I’m using my low voice right now.)
          Your misunderstanding is 100% on you and frankly, I resent the implication that I am blaming the employee or comparing an old perv to a cute puppy.
          If either of you have ever taken a self-defense or martial arts class, the FIRST thing they teach you is to use a loud, strong voice, whether you’re saying NO or throwing a punch.
          Look and listen to any strong, female leader. They’ve mastered this. *I* have mastered this, which is why I don’t need anyone else – boss, husband, friend, stranger to ‘step in’ for me.

      2. Cathy Gale*

        I am with Roverandom. I did not think ResuMAYDAY’s comment is blaming anyone for the customer’s obnoxious, entitled, creepy behavior – except the customer.

        I’ve got a baby face and am assumed to be a millenial. Sometimes strangers patronize me. I often find that using my lower register, a clear, cool stare and other signs of non-intimidation, can get them to back off their behavior. It doesn’t make it my fault if I am cheerful and open in my first experience with a stranger, and they treat me poorly. This is simply a strategy I can use to show them that I’m not going to put up with their antics.

    17. Lalaith*

      I’m hoping this situation doesn’t happen again, but if your manager says anything like that again, what I’d do is assume/pretend she’s being sarcastic and lean into it. “Ugh, yeah, that was kinda gross, wasn’t it? Did you see the way he was eyeing me?!” And hopefully that would give her a clue, or allow you to ask for her to have your back in defending yourself against gross people. Unfortunately, I don’t really have advice for the defense part :-/ Though I like what other people have said, “I heard you. Have a nice day!”

    18. User 483*

      I usually reply “I know.” Can be said with different inflections and smile or not, depending on exactly what tone I am trying to get across. For a customer in general it would just be a casual tone and no smile, then prob smile on the “have a nice day” part.

      I like the “I know” since it isn’t thanking them for commenting and it isn’t following their expectations of gratitude. And it doesn’t have to be said harshly.

      Creepers being creepy generally get the flat tone and no smile. Situations where it is more friendly and said among other general chatting then it is more of a casual tone and a smile. If I do actually want to flirt with them and such, then maybe a saucy smirk and something said similar back to them.

    19. Anona*

      I think however you can respond while feeling safe is the right thing.

      I HATE stuff like this– I always think of the perfect comeback later. But you did nothing wrong. If in the future you wanted to respond differently, using some of the responses others have brainstormed, that’s fine. But you did nothing wrong.

      Your coworker, however, was in the wrong. I’d talk to her, and/or her manager or your manager, depending on your comfort level.

    20. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. Gross.

      The way I have handled it in retail situations is by hollering to the targeted person, “Person, I need you NOW. Please come here!”

      It would be up to the person to say, “Gotta go! Emergency! Have a nice day!” Of course the person I am hollering to understands that I am not yelling AT them. I am creating a fake emergency so they can immediately leave the conversation pretending to be distracted. They know there is no emergency.

      Other times I have been able to work my into the conversation between Mr. Leer and Ms. Coworker. It comes up often enough the Mr. Leer keeps asking for one more thing and then one more thing. I would just step in and say, “I got it!” then bring it over. It’s enough of a distraction that my cohort could back out and I would finish the transaction. What I like about this is the message is clear, “If you start to act inappropriate with this employee, then the employee will be freed up to walk away from you.”

      Please talk to your boss about these techniques. In her defense, this probably does not come up often enough to hammer out a plan. Additionally, this stuff will blindside a person. It took me a few years to figure out what the problem was (random and blindsiding) and a bit more to figure out an effective plan.

      I will say this is key: When she steps in for you, you MUST step away. She can’t bail you if you don’t step away.

      And don’t worry about not effectively put Mr. Leer in his place. These people don’t get it and never will. Walking away is the solution.

    21. justanobody*

      –he turns around and says. “you must have not heard me. I SAID you’re awfully purty.”

      “You’re awful purty too!”

      2. LilySparrow*

        I have seen people totally get away with stuff like this by pretending they didn’t really hear and turning back to what they’re doing.

        “You too, uh-huh, buh-bye now!”

    22. A tester, not a developer*

      I would have gone with a slightly raised eyebrow and “What an odd thing to say”.

      1. T-Rex Arms*

        This. It’s a very AAM answer! Or, “Thank you for your business” as a response. Or, if you want to be very clear and bada$$ about it, “I appreciate your business, but not your comments on my appearance.” Your employer, however, is the one responsible for handling this. So if it happens again, or if you know this guy is a regular customer/know when(ish) he is coming in, ask your manager to be on standby and ready to tell this customer that this isn’t ok. You are allowed to be caught off guard by this offensive behavior, you are allowed to find it offensive and you are allowed to feel that you are in a workplace that supports a harassment free environment.

        Ick,

      2. Parcae*

        That works! My go-to with unwanted remarks is “No thank you!” The way I think about it is that I am not obligated to accept compliments (or criticism or what have you). People can offer them, but I get to decide whether to accept them (“Thank you!”) or not.

        Also, it tends to baffle people long enough for me to make my escape.

    23. Anon, good Nurse*

      Ugh, sorry this happened to you. I have had success with saying “You know, you really shouldn’t say that to people in the workplace” in a generous but firm tone. It allows me to establish a firm professional boundary while letting them save face, and preemptively deescalates what can often become a tense encounter. I agree with many commenters here–I think you handled this really well!

    24. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      You handled it well in the moment, though I would have felt annoyed at myself, too, for the capitulatory thank you. Is the front area set up in such a way that you could turn your back? A second, more measured “Have a nice day” plus a back turn would signal the interaction is over without dignifying the out-of-bounds behavior with a response. Or if you can’t turn your back, perhaps ignore him and fake-busy yourself with something.

    25. Peaches*

      Thank you to everyone that commented. I appreciate you sharing your suggestions and experiences with this!

    26. FlissShields*

      When this happened to me in my former job my then manager was horrified. Unfortunately the man in question really wanted *just me* to help him.

      When he turned up in person my manager INSISTED I meet with him (the Grand Boss thought he wasn’t that bad and insisted for the sales of client relations that I meet with him) in the public part of our Reception area and he walked the circuit repeatedly until we were done.

      Turned out he was a very elderly man who hadn’t realised how pushy he was being and it was okay in the end – but I was so grateful to my boss for at least attempting to protect me.

    27. LilySparrow*

      This isn’t a “should-have” suggestion, because I think you were in a no-win situation and got through it in a perfectly reasonable way. Being creeped on is icky, and there’s not really any course of action that’s going to leave you feeling great about it.

      But sometimes when I want to blow through a situation without either playing along or being directly confrontational, I’ll fall back on sort of bland, chipper phrases like “Okay, you bet.” or “Got it!” or even “Okie dokie, you have a great day, now!”
      It sounds a bit stupid, but you can pack a lot of “this is over now, go away” into a small shiny package with cliches like that.

      And IME, they are pretty effective on men of a Certain Age.

      Best of luck – I hope you don’t have to deal with this guy again. Ew.

    28. twist and twist and shout*

      My advice, if it happens again, is to simply say “thank you!”

      The customer is “an older man (probably mid 70’s)” and “super creepy” – I assume he’s creepy because he’s old and looked at you and tried to make some small talk? Would he still have been creepy if he was in his mid-20’s or mid-30’s? What if he was, say, from Slovakia and had an accent?

      I don’t usually deal with these customers, but it is my responsibility when my coworker is at lunch.

      So customer service is actually a part of your job, right? I think you and your manager should have a meeting and discuss exactly what “customer service” means. It generally involves a certain amount of “be nice to the customers”, because in addition to fetching packages, you are the interface between your company and the client. Your interaction with any client could cause the client to leave and do business elsewhere, or bring in even more business.

      It all boils down to “Respect”: in this case, respect for the client, respect for his age, respect and tolerance for ways that he might be different. If he was from France, or Brazil, and/or maybe his English skills weren’t great, you would – I hope! – cut him a break for some kind of verbal gaffe he made. This “older” “super creepy” fellow simply tried to pay you a compliment. There are a lot of men in his age bracket who think this is part of being a gentleman. You might consider it “inappropriate” etc, but – especially if it’s part of your customer service job – you’re expected to accept it as a compliment and say “thank you”.

      Frankly, it sounds to me like you saw he was old and you immediately judged him to be a “creep” and not worthy of respect. You wouldn’t like it if I saw you were young and judged you to be an entitled millennial.

      I suspect that your manager would agree with me on most of this. You wrote that “She seemed halfway joking by indicating I should have thanked him the first time … I just kind of laughed it off …” It sounds to me like she was attempting to give you a “hint”. IMHE, you ignore hints from your boss at your peril. I would strongly encourage you to sit down with her and ask her to speak to you directly on the topic.

      1. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

        He didn’t just “look at her”: During our whole interaction, he was staring at me intently and looking me up and down (for what it’s worth, I was dressed appropriately). When his order had been brought to him by our warehouse, I said “thank you!” expecting him to leave at that point. Instead, he lingered at the front counter, and said “you’re awfully purty, you know that?”

        No matter where he’s from, he knows other ways to “make small talk” than staring at the customer service person, waiting until the transaction is over, and then commenting on her appearance Either that, or he has spent the last half century not making small talk with other men, which seems unlikely and would mean that he can get through life without making small talk with people. That demanding “You must not have heard me, I SAID you were awfully purty” isn’t non-sexual small talk.

        Respect should go both ways: saying that men get to comment on a woman’s appearance, and she should “take it as a compliment,” and he doesn’t have to accept the obvious fact that she isn’t taking it as a compliment isn’t about respect. That “You must not have heard me, I SAID” means that he knows she didn’t like what he said, but insists that she soothe his ego by thanking him for ignoring the ways that she is different from him.

        Yes, some male customers are overbearing, and the OP’s boss might want her to accept that in order to keep their business. But there’s a difference between “unfortunately, the working world is like that sometimes” and “you should appreciate what he said, even though you didn’t feel comfortable, because his feelings are so much more important that it wouldn’t be enough to pretend that sort of sexualized personal remark is OK, you have to start liking it.”

        (It’s not about being a millennial; I’m closer to the creeper’s age than to OP’s.)

        1. twist and twist and shout*

          Your response confused me, because I never said she should “appreciate” the comment, or start to “like” the behavior. Essentially, I think she needs to accept this kind of thing as part of her job. Most jobs have some unpleasantness associated with them.

          You also seem pretty certain that you know what this “creepy” guy knows and thinks and says. I don’t know how you know this stuff.

          For myself, the OP does not come off as a particularly reliable narrator, and while I could be wrong, the OP’s manager’s reaction seems significant. I do hope that the OP will discuss the incident with her manager. Because as much as the OP and everyone else can be indignant about it, there’s “what we think should be correct” and there is “reality”. I believe it is in the OP’s best interest to get clear on the reality of her job.

          All of you people who are saying “oh, that’s terrible, you shouldn’t stand for that!” and being sympathetic aren’t helping the OP. You’re simply reinforcing poor behavior.

          1. Roverandom*

            -it’s pretty gross and unhelpful to call OP an “unreliable narrator” about her own feelings and experience. You are distracted by the description of his age. He was creepy because of his behavior, ie clearly hitting on someone working, not because of his age.

            -We don’t need to speculate about how this guy might have meant well. It’s irrelevant. OP isn’t asking “was this guy objectively creepy?” but “how can I handle customers who seem creepy?”

            -yes there is a degree of “this is what happens” in terms of sexual harassment in retail. I agree that it would be helpful for OP to clear with her boss how much she is expected to tolerate. Because if it’s significant, she may want to leave. Sexual harassment, like wage theft and bullying and wage gaps and nepotism, is common in the working world but that doesn’t mean it’s an “acceptable unpleasantness” for most people.

            -what is your actual advice on how she should handle this situation? What do you think is “respectful”? It sounds like you think she should chalk up his rudeness to being old/foreign and out-of-touch with modern manners, try to take it as a compliment, and cry quietly at home.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Nope. Leering is rude and demeaning.

        Leering has *always* been rude and demeaning. Seventy year old men know perfectly well that it’s not okay – that’s why they don’t do it in front of their wives. They don’t do it to their boss’ daughter. They don’t do it to their female boss or client. They do it when they believe they can get away with it.

        Leering and demanding a woman act grateful for your attention is disgusting behavior regardless of age, language, looks, or national background.

        And anyone who tells you they didn’t know better, or that it’s okay where they come from, is lying. Flat-out lying. Because they know perfectly well doing it to the “wrong” person or in the wrong context would carry consequences.

      4. LizM*

        Peaches said the interaction made her uncomfortable, and we should take her at her word.

        I’ve worked in a male-dominated field most of my career, and there is definitely a group of men who know exactly how to go right up to the line, but maintain an “ah, shucks, I was just trying to be nice” level of plausible deniability. I’ve especially seen it with older men interacting with younger women.

      5. LizM*

        Also, I know manage people who interact with the public. I’m very clear with them that I don’t expect them to take abuse. I would not expect an employee to say thank you in the situation (although I don’t have an issue with Peaches response)

      6. Peaches*

        …I’m genuinely so taken aback by your comment that I have to think you’re at least halfway joking. YES, it would have absolutely been as creepy to me if he was in his 20’s or 30’s, or had an accent, etc. with the way he behaved (I’m happily married FWIW, but that’s really not the point.) His creepiness was not relate to his age – his creepiness was related to his behavior, which was clearly inappropriate. I’m shocked that you’re take is that it “sounds like [I] immediately judged him to be a creep and not worthy of respect” based on the context. I was MORE than respectful, despite his inappropriate behavior. I was extremely polite, so I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was anything but respectful. Also, there are plenty of elderly men who don’t behave the way this man did. My default certainly isn’t to deem someone creepy based on their older age. You’re off base.

    29. Former Retail Manager*

      Well, on the up side, most people in this man’s age range are dying off pretty rapidly, so in about 10 years or so, you won’t have to deal with this from that age group. I’m being somewhat sarcastic. I get that it was unwanted and you could have responded any number of ways that other commenters suggested, but my question is, do you really think that saying something along the lines of “Please don’t comment on my appearance” is going to change the future actions of someone that age? I assure you, it isn’t. They’re set in their ways and most grew up with very different norms, beliefs, etc than what someone your age has grown up with. Factor in their level of education, geographic location (I think the Southerners are the worst & I’m a Southerner) and whether they grew up in a city vs a rural setting and you can get some real interesting remarks. I grew up with people of this customer’s age as my “elders” and I personally roll my eyes (internally) at the sweetie, darlin’, you’re so purty, remarks, but I never bother to say anything because I know they aren’t going to change and quite frankly, it’s just going to piss them off or hurt their feelings, which may or may not impact your job. So long as they don’t touch me, I just think that they’ll all be dead soon and move on.

      1. Millie*

        I’ve had the same sarcastic thoughts. Hopefully it will be an uncommon occurrence when my daughters join the workforce. In the meantime, it is not in my job description to accept unwanted compliments from creeps of any age/background.

  2. Mathilde*

    Can we talk about the political cost of standing up for social issues at work ?

    (Context : I am a white woman working in an established start-up in Paris).

    Before I go into it, let’s just acknowledge that :
    1) We should ideally stand up for what is right regardless of the personal cost (especially when it is a corporate one and not… a life and death thing)
    2 ) It is much (much) worse to be discriminated against than to be thought of as the annoying social justice warrior.

    I hope I won’t get piled on about this. Believe me, I know how privileged you have to be to be able to wonder whether to choose to just opt-out if the fallback is too hard.

    That said… it is not that easy, and I DO think about it. As I advance in my career, I think a lot about the best way to progress. I am ambitious, and I definitely want to continue to be promoted and earn more money. I am also sensitive to a lot of social issues and I find myself more often than not to be the person who will say “That is not okay”.

    How do you navigate the drive to do what is right, and the fact that this can cost a lot ?

    Example : About 3 weeks ago, a colleague (Jane) said something quite racist. This was not the first time. I was taken by surprise and I was not involved in the conversation, so I just gave her a startled look.
    After hesitating for a few days, I decided to mention it to her manager – Mary – who said that she would talk to her. I did it in the privacy of a meeting room.

    This morning, her manager (who sits on the Board) came to see me, and said that she talked to her, but basically, next time, I should just talk directly to Jane. Mary was angry against me for coming to her (she said so herself), talked to me loudly in the middle of the open space, and gave me all the “explanations” you usually get : this is just how Jane is, this was just humour, yes he is fat and black anyway etc… She said she went to MY manager to tell him about it.

    I don’t regret speaking up, but I also know that there is a cost to being the person who does, especially in an organisation where the people at the top don’t really care about social issues. In this case, I doubt it will change that much for me, but it definitely eroded the good will Mary might have had towards me.

    What do you recommend ? Picking your battles ? Estimating which is the most outrageous and choosing this one, but the off-beat racist joke won’t even get picked up any more ?

    This feels so cynical – and privileged. But I find myself wondering if you have any tips.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      This morning, her manager (who sits on the Board) came to see me, and said that she talked to her, but basically, next time, I should just talk directly to Jane.

      Another manager handling things badly.

      No, you absolutely did the right thing by speaking up (well, at another company or with another manager, you would have been doing the right thing), and this is not the sort of thing that needs to be addressed directly to the person. Yes, if you feel comfortable doing so and you genuinely believe the person making the racist remark will take you seriously, you can address it directly, but management should have repercussions for that and, frankly, not tolerate it.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        I disagree, its been my experience that speaking up in person for relatively minor infractions yields the best results. Speaking up to the person in a kind “not sure you knew” way can drive positive change.

        In my experience, others are more likely to have your back this way too.

        Where as when I have gone to a manager for similarly severe racist comments, suddenly no one recalls that happening. I was made to seem as if I missheard, then my credibility with my manage dropped, when literally the same people backed me up when we called that person out in the moment.

        Just something to be aware of re: political capital at work addressing social issues in person vs to a manager.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Picking your battles. It really depends on situation and environment as to whether or not to do it. It sounds like in your case, it’s…not likely to do any good and pretty likely to do you harm. You might want to read about whistleblowers and the experiences they have vs. how they feel about doing it, and think about whether or not the cost to your career/life is worth it, or if you just HAVE to stand up and say something no matter what the cost.

      1. Summertime*

        I definitely agree with picking your battles. In a relatively respectful work environment, if a coworker makes an off-beat racist joke, I’d probably let it go unless I felt that coworker would translate that racism into how they would treat others at work. (Though there is a need to address a pattern of microaggressions. There’s so much nuance!) It is also better to address things when they happen and/or directly with the person but it’s not realistic for you to do either in any and all situations, so rely on your good judgment!

        In your particular instance, I agree that you addressed it appropriately and the manager was not taking these concerns seriously enough.

    3. Diahann Carroll*

      Mary is only right that you should have corrected Jane in the moment. Going to Mary a day later to pass along a secondhand comment isn’t going to do much good, especially since she spoke to Jane about it, and Jane told her you took what she said out of context and she was “just joking.”

      The rest of her speech about how this is just who Jane is…well, yeah – she’s a racist. If you were in the US and constantly heard her racist conversations, I would have told you to speak with HR since her manager doesn’t seem to care about the issue and her rhetoric would be opening the company up to a discrimination suit. If you have a similar department at your company that deals with whatever discrimination laws you have in your country, if such laws exist, then the I’d tell you to loop them in the next time Jane says something racist – but only after you’ve checked her in the moment.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      The personal cost of standing up is real, and choosing your battles isn’t a matter of privilege. Everyone has to choose their battles, because nobody can be a one-person crusade for All That Is Unjust In The World. People who are directly impacted by whatever -ism is currently the focus (racism, in your example) will also choose whether or not there’s a battle worth fighting when a particular incident arises.

      Choosing your battles, though, isn’t just about what’s most outrageous, but what will make the biggest difference. Sometimes you can get more traction with a smaller change that will pave the way for later, larger changes, and part of doing that is conserving your political capital for when those smaller changes come along.

      1. Bertha*

        “Choosing your battles, though, isn’t just about what’s most outrageous, but what will make the biggest difference. Sometimes you can get more traction with a smaller change that will pave the way for later, larger changes, and part of doing that is conserving your political capital for when those smaller changes come along.”

        Thank you, this is a wonderful way of putting it, and helps put it in perspective for me in other situations as well.

      2. DrD*

        Agree. I’m involved in diversity related work on a professional level, but I’m not a diversity professional. What this means is that I am constantly in the position of choosing what areas of focus have the biggest chance of making a meaningful difference. You have to be strategic. You can easily burn yourself out. In your situation, I would let Jane be Jane, continue to register my disapproval in the moment, but not escalate. I would focus on looking at ways to address inclusion systemically within the company. See if you can get someone higher up to bring in a focus on diversity and inclusion as a way to strengthen the business, for example.

      3. CastIrony*

        “The personal cost of standing up is real, and choosing your battles isn’t a matter of privilege. Everyone has to choose their battles, because nobody can be a one-person crusade for All That Is Unjust In The World.”

        Countess Boochie Flagrante*, with all due respect, I don’t agree. I’m a person of color, and whenever I say something like, “You’re being rude to me”, I’m the one to suffer the fallout and become terrified to work there.

        2. Former Employee*

          See if you can make a point of calling someone out when there are others around who heard how that person spoke to you in a rude way. It’s always better to have a witness.

    5. CurrentlyBill*

      Many circumstances and environments may call for a different response, but I’m a fan of a low key, in-the-moment response of, “That’s not cool,” and moving on. It denies them significant attention, and it makes it harder for them to complain about what they think of as an excessive PC or SJW culture.

      Of course this isn’t always the best approach, but sometimes a simple acknowledgement like this and moving on can be a nice way to shut it down.

      1. Bibrarian*

        I like a “yiiiikes”, myself, but I’m very casual.

        It helps to have like a grab bag of phrases ready to call things out without engaging further, that also work in different settings.

        In addition to the above, think phrases like:
        What an unkind thing to say
        That hasn’t been my experience
        That’s offensive
        That’s inappropriate
        that’s not true
        I haven’t found that to be the case
        Actually, he’s great

        Lots of people recommend a well placed “how so? “ or “what do you mean?” But those do take a little extra skill, and prolong the interaction.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          This is a great list, thanks! I’d also suggest finding a way to practice saying some of those things (with a willing friend maybe*) because the more they can become instinctive the less likely you are to get flustered thinking of the “right” thing to say in the moment.

          *Your friend shouldn’t actually have to say an offensive thing. I’ve seen this work where one person says e.g. “I’m saying a really offensive thing about that person on the street right now!”and then the second person says “That’s offensive.” The first person can vary their tone and demeanor, and the second person can practice saying their response in a few ways until they get comfortable with it.

        2. Long-time AMA Lurker*

          +1. I like a nice, perplexed “I don’t see how that’s relevant.” Had to use this once when someone I worked with complained about not being about to pronounce any of our applicants’ names. Still wish I had done more but it was the best I could do at the time.

          1. WantonSeedStitch*

            I would probably have replied to that with an encouraging, syrupy smile and, “I’m sure you’ll be able to learn!”

      2. BWG*

        Agreed. It also lets them know that what they have said is not socially acceptable, but doesn’t give them the ammo to focus on your reaction vs. the bs that came out of their mouth.

      3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Agreed. I think there’s kind of two big categories of response, if you will — there’s the kind that pushes to educate others and convince them to change their thoughts, and there’s the kind that simply imposes a negative social feedback for a specific interaction. While education is great, it’s exhausting and it also requires the other person to be open to being educated. Negative social feedback, on the other hand, doesn’t help them to understand why they need to change, but it does introduce & reinforce the idea that this is not how you behave here, which does a lot to stop behaviors from being perpetuated.

        Each has its up and downs, and each has its place.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I have a friend at work whom I try my very hardest to be an ally. We talk about many things, race on his side, sexism on mine. He’s a black man, and I’m a white woman.

          We were talking about racism and subtle racism (relating to a comment made about “nappy hair” in the office, oof). During the course of the discussion, I asked him if he ever got tired of having to be the chill, cool, ‘I’m not really offended but this is why you shouldn’t say this” Ambassador Of All POC…who then is required to educate clueless white people about the reasons why, indeed, you do not refer to a black person’s hair as “nappy”…ever. Our conversation continued and that was that.

          A few days later, he pulled me aside and said that he literally got choked up during that conversation because I actually understood (we were on the phone). I was like HUH WUT and he said it was the first time a white person acknowledged the tacit burden that POC are under to educate white folks about what’s okay and what’s not okay, and how it’s expected of POC to do so and it’s quite frankly, tiresome in the extreme.

          I wasn’t shooting for brownie points or anything, but to me, it seems like it would get old – very fast – to constantly have to explain to people in a level, calm tone (because god knows, you can’t get upset) why saying This or That is unacceptable and here’s why. And then having to deal with the flurry of apologies and backpedaling and ultimately having to actually make the other person feel OK about their casual offensiveness in the first place.

          I don’t pretend to know what it’s like being a POC in the corporate world. I have a slighter notion being a woman, but it’s a whole ‘nother level for him.

    6. Jennifer*

      I understand being startled in the moment. I would suggest having some responses ready to go in your head for the next time this happens because it will. Like, “What a terrible thing to say,” or “That’s pretty racist. Are you serious right now?” or a simple “That’s not cool,” as someone suggested below.

      As far as Mary making excuses for Jane, that’s par for the course. That’s why many times I don’t bother reporting things like that (I’m a black woman) because everyone closes ranks. I just quietly change my opinion of that person, limit my interaction, and maybe start looking elsewhere.

      I think speaking up is the right thing to do. POCs don’t always feel comfortable doing so in the moment so I applaud you for using your privilege for good!

    7. BWG*

      I have this issue in a slightly different way, where I work in a social justice field and am sometimes faced with nakedly bigoted stuff directed at the majority culture (which I am part of). I.e. someone seriously asking if there was anything good about white people, someone saying that the high rate of suicide among white men is because they just can’t handle their privilege being challenged, etc. I understand that the dominant culture is going to come under more scrutiny and criticism, and I try to not be too fragile about it. But questioning if there is anything of value about an entire race or group of people is really offensive and troubling to me, even if that race or group of people part of the dominant culture. I don’t know if anyone else has faced this, and how they have dealt with it.

      1. zora*

        That is a tough one, but I think I would try to gently point out how harmful that kind of thinking can be, but without making a huge deal about it. Saying something short and then moving on/letting it go for the moment. And focusing on “I statements” like like, “I worry it’s hurtful to make light of suicide no matter who the victims are” or something like that.

        But also, make sure you are really examining your own reaction to the things people are saying. The suicide one sounds awful, but I also think offhand comments about “all white people” are often just blowing off steam (I say them myself sometimes) and not actually implying any kind of violence against anyone. That might be a little bit of white fragility to be reacting to a comment like that and feel like you have to say anything. I think there’s a big difference between something like “Have white people done anything good, ever??” and “Really we just need to round up all the white people and wipe them out.” The second would be inappropriate in any work setting and I would at least take that person aside and ask them to tone it down, but the first one is an off-hand comment and I would let it go.

        1. some dude*

          I was talking more about serious questions about whether there is anything of value in white people rather than “gah, white people!!!” type comments. I’m not gonna police people blowing off steam or cry reverse racism everytime someone says something a little off color or ungood, but when you are seriously considering a bigoted point of view, it worries me. Mostly because I get concerned about the prevalence of us/them, we good/they bad type thinking that I sometimes see, which jumps from “white people/culture have caused a lot of harm” to “white people are inherently bad, people of color/queer folks/women are inherently good, if only we get rid of white cisdudes we will be liberated and live in a utopia” which I’m not on board with.

          1. zora*

            Yeah, I totally get what you are saying, and that’s where I would put the line, too. I just wasn’t clear from your earlier comment what the context was of your examples.

            I think you are right that there is something troubling about that line of thinking, and in the right context where I think I might have a responsibility in the room, especially in a workplace, I would probably try to say something about the larger concept of “Us/them” thinking, similar to what you said here. like “I worry about “us/them” thinking that paints too broad of a brush, because I think it puts us a little too close to becoming the thing we are fighting against.”

            But then again, I try to avoid getting into drawn out debates about it, because I’m also not sure that’s helpful, especially if there are members of marginalized groups in the room, because their anger is justified and I don’t want to center the conversation around white people too much, that in and of itself is a problem.

            I think gentle counteracting in the moment, but then trying to get a change of subject is the best outcome. And if you have the authority and someone is saying these kinds of things frequently, taking them aside to dress the larger pattern and say that framing like that isn’t appropriate in the workplace, because of others that might be uncomfortable with that kind of rhetoric.

      2. kt*

        I guess I’d suggest treating it in exactly the same way. “I know you’re joking, but making generalizations like that isn’t cool/helpful,” works fine no matter what group it is (and whether they’re joking or not).

      3. RecoveringSWO*

        Depending on the statement and your emotional wherewithal for that day, you could take a page out of the “coming out” strategy and put a face to the stereotype/offensive comment that the person just made. Eg.:

        “Is there even anything good about white people?” “Well, I’d like to think I have some good qualities and my Great Aunt invented automatic transmission for cars, so that probably counts for something.”
        “White men commit suicide more often because they just can’t handle their privilege being challenged.” “I dunno about that. All of the white men I know who died by suicide struggled with getting proper mental health care and drug rehabilitation.”

        Obviously, some responses might require more vulnerability then you can spare. So this tactic is good for some, but probably not all circumstances. However, I think that by responding with an example from your personal life it’s clear that you’re not engaging in a battle of whether the dominant group has it better or worse, you just want to be given some humanity/respect.

        1. zora*

          Honestly, I don’t think those responses are great. They are making it about specific people, when the person is talking about the systemic issues, and they come off as a little too #NotAllMen to me….

          I would keep it more too “I try to be compassionate about suicide because it can be a very tough topic for some” rather than countering with individual examples.

        2. googs*

          These…are not great responses and sound like, as zora said, very prototypical “All Lives Matter” retorts.

      4. DrD*

        I hear you BWG. I think a major aspect of what you’re dealing with might be the difference between an “activist community” and a “professional community.” I’m also white, and I’m an academic at an institution with a significant non-white population. I’m also involved in diversity, equity, and inclusion work professionally. Because I’m in a leadership role, professionally, I at times have to moderate conversations made up of a mixture of people in majority and minority groups, and have to lead meetings in which these conversations take place. In an activist setting, the general idea is that I, as a white woman, would shut up and listen, but in these professional settings, I have to be in charge, and that means I have to talk ad direct the conversation. I also have to handle the us / them situation, and the way that conversation can be very damaging to our shared goals in regard to DE&I. Maybe I’m reading too much from my situation into what you’re saying, but it sounds to me like you’re concerned about larger harm coming from anti-white comments (such as the comment about white men committing suicide). What I try to do is clearly establish the context of the conversation and let that be my guide: If we’re chatting in the hall, and people are blowing off steam, I roll with it. If it’s a casual conversation with someone I have a solid relationship with, and that person seems to dismissing white male suicide, I would invite them to reconsider, perhaps by invoking intersectionality (a white person has white privilege but might struggle with poverty, drug addiction, and mental health, leading to suicide). If I’m chairing a meeting, I bring it back to our task as a group, and I might note the risk of the comment if I felt it was particularly problematic.

        1. DrD*

          Sorry — This is supposed to be a reply to BWG regarding social justice work and the difficulty of responding to comments against white people.

        2. BWG*

          Thanks.

          It’s more in spaces where the professional/activist lines are blurred, and where people are dealing with the pain and chaos of the present moment. I push back when it seems appropriate, suck it up when it seems like it is just an example of someone venting, and try to focus on moving forward productively.

          I think what disturbs me is that what is being offered up by some as an alternative to the racist system we are facing sometimes feels like more of the same but color swapped.

      5. Blueberry*

        On the one hand, snarking about people committing suicide is both terrible and misguided, and I see your wider point that the goal should be for no one to be abused because of their race, etc, not to just pick on the majority rather than minorities. On the other, I have seen people characterize any/all efforts at reducing bigotry as revenge-based attempts at making the dominant group downtrodden. When you try to push back against these statements I think you should be careful not to sound as if you’re doing that last, because many disprivileged people have heard such reasoning before and will not react favorably if they think you’re promoting it as well. One way is by pointing out how we all live at the nexus of our various demographics — referring to your example above, someone with White privilege can still certainly be driven to suicide by homophobia, substance abuse, poverty, lack of access to resources, and so on. I think pointing that out, not in a “privilege doesn’t exist” way but “we almost all have ways we are both privileged and disprivileged” can possibly help.

    8. Quinalla*

      Yup, I’d try for in the moment “That’s not cool!” or a baffled “What?!” or even just a shocked reaction like you had or “What do you mean by that?” said in your most innocently curious tone. If it is a pattern and you’ve already spoken up in the moment, I think that IS worth bringing to management/HR, but it sounds like you only addressed the one incident. I would have presented it as a pattern to her manager.

      And also agree with others that you just can’t fight every, single battle, but when I have the energy and it is safe to do so, I try to speak up, if only so I can stay true to myself. But there are times when I bit my tongue because it is a client or I just can’t speak up for the 10th time today. And I am very cognizant of being labeled a “complainer”, so I take care to not complain, but just present it like we are all reasonable people and surely they didn’t actually mean to be racist, sexist, etc. just then? Allowing people to save face and presenting things as if of course they want to be reasonable (or legal if it is going that far) go along way to squashing any hints that you are a complainer or attention seeker or whatever strange stories people tell themselves about folks speaking up about bigotry that has no place in the workplace!

    9. aepyornis*

      I fully understand you being startled and not saying anything at the time and I applaud you for not just letting it slide and at least trying to address it even if others will brush it off.
      One strategy that you could consider is making it more and more uncomfortable for people to make such “jokes”. Moving the discomfort from you to them, until it is no longer worth making these comments around you. Staring at them in disbelief and saying “wow”, or asking them to repeat (“surely you did not just say that”) or asking them to explain (“I just don’t get it” if it is meant as humour, etc.). And of course, assuming you are in Paris, France, you can always matter-of-factly mention the law (not as a threat to denounce them but to gradually make them realise this is serious). You might initially get a reputation as a stick in the mud but if you are generally pleasant to work with and warm with your colleagues, and capable of appreciating a non racist joke, you can mitigate this.

    10. ResuMAYDAY*

      You could tell Mary’s boss that your problem isn’t an interpersonal one (which could be handled between the two of you) but rather, potential blow back to the organization, if racist talk ever got beyond the office walls. That’s a training issue for a manager, not a peer.

    11. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

      I think there’s a lot of good advice from others here about handling things in the moment, so I’ll say something bigger picture: I’m also ambitious and working my way up, and what I’ve tended to find is that people near the top are *very* reluctant to use their power for good. When you’re an entry level employee, you think “wow, this is outrageous, if I were the I’d do something about it!” And then you’re the boss, you think “Wow, this is outrageous! If I were a VP, no way I’d let that slide!” And then you’re a VP, and you’re like “Wow, that’s horrible, but you know how the CEO is, he’ll never get on board with changing things” and then you’re the CEO, and you’re like “Dang, I know, I agree, but there’s no way I can get the Board to agree to a change like that.”

      People all the way up are all too eager to abdicate their power because of the perception that it’s still *someone elses’* job to deal with this. Nobody seems to actually believe that they have the power to compel change.

      I don’t think it’s entirely intentional, and of course it’s hard, for all the reasons you cite! And our economy, built on long workweeks and at-will employment, encourages people to toe the line because there’s *always* too much at stake. I don’t necessarily blame anyone, but it’s a pattern too strong to ignore. I’m just entirely sick of hearing the COO say “I’d love to do that, but I can’t.” I mean, if you can’t, then literally no one can!

      There are arguments for picking your battles so you can get into positions of real power and make changes. But I’ve seen too many times that that point of finally having Enough power that you can flex it never actually comes. At some point, executive ranks need to be filled with people who are true advocates for change, rather than a panel of ninjas who are all secretly Very Supportive Of These Ideas, but who assume no one else is and that speaking up is too risky.

    12. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      It’s messed up. I’m a white-passing woman of color, and an outspoken ally of the LGBTQA+ community, and I see this crap at work all the time. We had a trans woman, Emma, who worked here a while back who was asked what her former name was by another employee, Liz, and Liz also referred to Emma and a few other people as “you guys” even though Emma asked not to be referred to as a guy. Our manager notified HR, and instead of Liz apologizing, she went around gossiping to everyone on our floor that Emma was trying to cause drama for no reason (Emma wasn’t even the person who talked to our manager, she was probably going to suffer in silence), and that asking a trans person their dead name is just like asking a married person what their maiden name was. Guess what? Liz still works here and Emma doesn’t. It’s so demoralizing.

      2. Glagh an stuff*

        I don’t think Liz was kind for gossiping, but that said, “you guys” is meant to be a generic way of addressing a group of people (like “y’all”) and doesn’t have a gendered connotation in modern usage. I think Emma overreacted too.

        1. Amethystmoon*

          It may depend in which state one lives. In the upper Midwest, we do definitely say “you guys” a lot to mean everyone in the room. Of course, we also say pop and hotdish.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Okay so you are working for an organization that sincerely believes discrimination is NOT an issue.

      See, your story started with a Jane problem and it morphed into a management problem. Not too much happens in a vacuum. Jane continues doing this because management allows it.

      My wise friend used to say, do not allow yourself to become killed*, if you allow yourself to get killed then your message dies with you. Stay alive and on a different day your message will be heard.

      *Killed. Killed can be loosely translated into many things such as fired, ignored/isolated, rendered ineffective and so on. Keep yourself safe first and foremost that is absolutely key to protecting your message.

      One time I really threw caution to the wind and I really blew a gasket over X. X was a safety issue where it was reasonable to believe that one or more people could be dead within a week. I cited famous examples from history where the issue was taking place and people ended up DEAD. I did not do this calmly or politely since calm and polite did not work the last four times I mentioned the problem. On my fifth mention, I lost my temper. I did not cuss. I stated the facts loudly and stridently.

      In my example here, it wasn’t just me who was going to be dead, it was others. Possibly many others. And it would be soon, very soon.
      And you know what? I did not think for one minute about spending my political capital. In these extreme situations it’s much easier to forsake that capital or concern about what others think because of the direness and immediacy of the problem.

      No one will die this week, except for part of their souls melting away from the bullying. You could go a tamer but more persistent route. I love some of the suggested go-to sentences here. I’d like to add that there is nothing wrong with saying it’s bad for business: The business will repel customers. The better applicants will not apply here. We will end up taking more work for less money because the bigger jobs are not available to us.

      Over-coming objections. It’s easier when you know what the objections are.
      This is how Mary is.
      Okay, fine, she can do that at home but not in the workplace.

      This is just humor.
      You know that is well known excuse used in classic examples of bullying right? It’s not funny, it’s hateful. I don’t think we want to be known as a hateful company.

      yes he is fat and black…
      So we make fun of people for their bodies, really? So it’s okay to walk up to a woman and make fun of her if she has big boobs/no boobs, fat butt, etc? Making fun of people’s bodies is Not Cool. Ever.

      Having done this type of stuff, I can tell you first hand that you will go home dog-tired at the end of the week. These places are flippin’ exhausting. And to some degree it will slow you down career wise because it will detract from your work in a big way.
      I dunno what you have for protection laws. It might be quicker to cite laws to TPTB. Since the people you have been dealing with cannot hear you, then you should drag in more people. This should be HR, other VPs or the CEO. My suggestions are to go wide (more people) or go softer (use of go-to sentences that you constantly repeat.)

    14. nat*

      I hear you. I struggle with this in my professional life too. I work in a public hospital serving a diverse population and my boss has a lot of clear, unexamined biases. For example, she thinks her son didn’t get into a local public university “because he’s white”. It is hard to watch someone who doesn’t understand social justice and equity issues lead a department where these concerns are front and center. I don’t have answers. There is definitely a political cost to being assertive.

    15. Blueberry*

      Thank you for having said something, and I’m so sorry you got this awful pushback. It’s annoying to have to have a few responses prepared In Case Someone Is A Bigot but it’s also useful. I very much agree with whomever downthread said that one can either try to educate or try to increase the cost in awkwardness of saying bigoted things.

    16. Kat in VA*

      So Mary would have preferred that you say – in the moment, and loudly enough for everyone to hear – WOOOOOWWWWW MARY THAT WAS A REALLY RACIST AND UNKIND THING TO SAY.

      Methinks Mary would be pissed off at the outcome of this situation, regardless, because people don’t like getting called out on their $hitty behavior.

  3. Trying to be a supportive spouse*

    How do you all handle job searches that just take too long? We recently moved to a new city, and my spouse is looking for a job and has been looking for over half a year with no luck (half looking remotely before we moved, and half looking locally after we moved). Fortunately (yes, I realize how lucky we are), my job pays enough that we can take care of the bills (not save a whole lot, though). There are no gaps in their résumé other than the recent months they’ve spent looking for a job.

    They’re also in an awkward professional spot, because they want to switch careers. They’re a bit too old and have too many degrees to be considered for entry-level work or paid internships (they’ve tried), but they aren’t quite old enough to feel the major effects of age discrimination (not that that’s helped).

    It can get really demoralizing. Any tips on how to handle this emotionally/psychologically? And how much do employers ding you for gaps in your résumé if there are no gaps except the most recent gap?

    1. SuperAnon*

      A move is a gap that’s easily explained. “I’ve been transitioning from City to City and buying a home etc.”

      Re: age, this is just anecdotal but I got good, full-time jobs at 58, 62 and 63. Attitude is important.

    2. The Bermudian*

      No experience here but contemplating the same move next year so interested to hear what people have to say!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Same; moving in a week, and and I’m afraid after I move I won’t find anything there either.

    3. Susan K*

      Have they looked into volunteering or a job in retail? The cruel reality is that it’s easier to find a job when you already have one. The gap is easy to explain — moved here for spouse’s job and haven’t found the right job yet — but they might have better luck getting interviews if already employed. Retail might seem “beneath” them if they have a lot of professional experience, but it might help to try something related to a hobby (e.g., a craft store if they’re into crafting or a sporting goods store if they’re into sports).

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It will depend on the area but it’s a falsehood that retail is a job you can just get by applying at one.

        I have seen people get denied retail jobs over the years, it’s not a walk on job like it was once considered. Same with the service industry, one cannot simply just go work at McDonalds =(

        2. Penny*

          Yup. I applied at Target when unemployed, and couldn’t even get an interview there. My application was auto-rejected by their system! (And I actually have retail experience.) At that point I was just jumping through hoops for Unemployment so I didn’t care, but it was kind of startling. (I actually had a job offer elsewhere pending a somewhat lengthy background check, but in my state the only way to collect your weekly unemployment check is to show proof of proactive job search activity via a log, regardless of whether you were in a situation like mine. /tangent rant)

        3. Susan K*

          I know it’s not necessarily easy to get a retail job, but it could be easier than getting a professional job. A lot of places are going to be hiring seasonal employees soon. My brother had trouble finding a job after a layoff, so he got a job at a store related to one of his hobbies so he wouldn’t have such a long gap on his resume. I think it helped him to be able to say, “I’ve been an underwater basketweaving enthusiast since I was a kid, so I’ve enjoyed working at Underwater Baskets R Us while looking for my next position,” rather than look like he was so desperate for a job that he took the first one that would hire him and he was desperate to get out that he’d take any professional job he could get.

          1. Dana B.S.*

            They’ve likely already hired their seasonal employees – that’s usually done by early October. October is for training & preparations. November is when the biggest shipments come in and traffic starts to pick up. There is a chance that they can be picked to fill a spot for a dud, but most stores even hire a little more to account for duds.

        4. Psych0Metrics*

          A lot of retail jobs will also dismiss applicants that seem over-qualified- retail stores already struggle with high turnover so someone with significant professional experience/an advanced degree etc. is probably going to be looking for a new job immediately and is a poor investment.

          1. Nonny Maus*

            That’s unfortunately part of the Catch-22 that seems to be modern Employment. A friend ran into that several years back. Too qualified for most retail/food-service/customer service jobs so they wouldn’t hire him, and not qualified enough in whatever-BS-way for the jobs in his chosen field. (I say BS because several of them were also of the “this is entry-level, but we want 5 years of experience and all these specialty skills” type jobs in addition to the usual crop of more normal entry level jobs.)

        5. Elizabeth West*

          THIS.
          I tried but it’s been so long since I worked in food service or retail that no one wants to hire me into those jobs anymore. I’m way, way overqualified.

    4. Natalie*

      This might be obvious but they don’t need to list all or any of their degrees on their resume if they aren’t relevant. Resumes don’t need to be comprehensive.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This! Just take them off the resume, nobody needs to know you have multiple degrees if they are impeding their job search. It happens sadly frequently when someone has a hefty educational background.

        1. Helena*

          Depends on your career though – if you’ve spent the past fifteen years practising as a lawyer or architect, it’s obvious you have multiple degrees even if they aren’t listed. And you can’t easily leave decades of work off your resume.

          But yes when I was a medical student looking for summer jobs I left that fact off my CV and just listed my A levels (high school diploma equivalent) and previous bar and factory work.

    5. job search*

      I handled it by temping. Not all temp roads lead to new careers, but it helps in keeping the skills fresh. Emotionally speaking, just having a job to go to and the little bit of cash it brought in was a huge help.

      1. Mama Bear*

        I temped in a new city to get my feet wet. Your spouse may also want to do a skills-oriented vs history-oriented resume.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I love temping, you have a lot more power than you think going in.

        There’s still a stigma attached but once you prove yourself as a good employee, they keep you working non-stop.

      3. Super Nintendo Chalmers*

        Absolutely. For me, temping was a fabulous way to learn where I wanted to work (and where I absolutely did not) when I moved to a new city.

      4. Mel2*

        I also suggest temping, as I did this when I moved cities. However, I did initially have a little trouble getting placements from some of the temp agencies I signed up with. I finally lucked out by signing on with the a major hospital’s internal temp service. Not only did they pay better than most (no external agency fee), but they were able to place me immediately. It had the added benefit of helping me learn the electronic medical record system I use at my current permanent job.

        1. Triumphant Fox*

          EMRs are so labor intensive! This is a nice perk – learning software and systems that you might not otherwise be able to learn that are really industry (and in this case even healthcare system) specific.

      5. Kathy Keevan*

        I took a temp job in September 1994. I was going to punch holes in paper reports and file them in binders, and other menial tasks. I was supposed to be there for nine weeks. That turned into ten months, at which point I was hired permanently. I’m still there, 25 years later! I’m a senior financial analyst now. I’ve had a fabulous career that I certainly wasn’t envisioning when I walked in the door.

    6. ResuMAYDAY*

      Is your spouse working with a career coach? The resume has to be properly written to support and justify the transition. Interview questions about the transition need to answered smartly. Your spouse should be networking with people in that new, desired industry (with a good elevator pitch). What about recruiters specific to that industry? A career coach can get your spouse up to speed on all of this, with accountability. A career coach will also help your spouse avoid the time-sucks that always come when trying to find new information.

    7. Shelly*

      When my spouse had a long drawn-out job search that ended in him deciding to start his own business, I really had to adapt to the emotional side of things. At some point, I internally questioned how I would feel if he never got a job and what that would mean for our marriage relationship. I also found that my own anxiety-driven behaviors weren’t actually helping his job search. For example, I would search through job boards and forward him job postings for the wrong kinds of job and I would interrogate him after every job interview. When I was finally at peace with the process, I found that the best thing I could tell him was variations on “I know you are working so hard. I am so proud of you. I want to support you in everything you do.” This was also aided by me seriously considering our financial state and how we could make things work on my paycheck. As soon as my anxiety knew that all the bills would be paid, I knew that he could take the time to let things happen. It’s not perfect, but it worked for me. I hope that everything works out for both of you, whether that means his perfect job, or other opportunities, or taking on home responsibilities. There are a million ways to be fulfilled and successful at life, and a job is only one of those.

      1. AnonManager*

        I have a very similar experience. We moved to a higher cost of living area for me to move up in my career. Before moving, we ran our projected finances and determined that my spouse would need to work in order to maintain our standard of living (they were planning on it, but didn’t have a job lined up like I did). Fast forward two years…due to a combination of personal and professional reasons (aging credentials, anxiety about networking and job searching, etc.) my spouse still does not have a job. And we have a lower standard of living, as predicted. But we make it work. We pay our bills. They do more household management than before. But I did have to take a hard look at what the future would look like if indefinitely unemployed turned into permanently un- (or under-)employed and make peace with that.

    8. Coverage Associate*

      Honestly, I have given up. Having a functioning spouse at home became more important than the income he could bring in. But we have mental illness complications that limit what he can accomplish day to day.

    9. Probably Taking This Too Seriously*

      Not sure what he does, but can he freelance? The “gig culture” is very much real.

      1. AnonManager*

        Yes, this is our reality as well. I didn’t realize it when we were first married, but mental illness and the current work culture are a rough combination. My spouse runs a small business out of our home, mostly to stay busy, and does the household management. But it’s possible they will not ever get back on a standard career track.

    10. LunaLena*

      Are there any new skills he can study/train for that would make him a stronger candidate? I was mostly unemployed in 2009 due to the recession, and that’s how I explained that lengthy gap in my resume: I used the time to take freelance projects and use free resources (Lynda.com, library books, etc) to learn new skills and improve on others.

      1. LunaLena*

        I just realized that I used he/him when your post did not mention gender. Please substitute they/them for he/him in my post.

        Also, in regards to keeping it together emotionally/psychologically – I found that keeping busy was the best way. Learning and improving on my skills helped with this a lot. Having a routine that followed a normal work schedule helped too: I spent mornings searching for/applying to job postings and going over my resume/cover letter/portfolio pieces, then lunch, then work on my side gigs in the afternoon, plus at least one hour each day on learning new skills, ending at 5 p.m. It helped me feel like I accomplished something during the day, so I didn’t feel like I was slacking off or wallowing around in despair.

        1. Aphrodite*

          This is a good idea. To expand on it, how is the adult education program in your city? I am talking about fun things. If he/she can get a routine going with temping or retail or even volunteer work and combine that with a couple of fun classes in order to create a routine similar to yours (for example, Monday to Friday from 8:00 to 5:00 plus holidays and vacation/sick days too) that might make it easier.

          One of the things I remember most from my unemployment days (for 18 months about five years ago) was the absolute envy I developed for people going to work on Monday mornings. I was so green you could have bottled me as a health drink. But I also made sure I did not think about or do anything about job hunting on weekends and other off days. I gave myself permission to actually have great weekends. That combination, I think, changed my attitude unconsciously and made me more interesting to employers because I wasn’t pent up with frustration and that endless, hopeless feeling

          1. Elizabeth West*

            This this this! I do that too. NO job stuff on the weekend. I don’t even look at the boards. Most companies don’t post anything then, and if I missed it on Friday, it will likely still be there on Monday.

    11. TheAssistant*

      Oh, my partner just went through this. Sent her resume out like a madwoman for 18 months. She regularly progressed to the final interview stage, so there wasn’t anything wrong with her resume or interviewing skills. It was just a lot of bad luck.

      In her case, I recommended she look outside of the rather-narrow niche she had chiseled herself. I argued that when doing a big shift from X to Y, it doesn’t do any favors to make Y really specific. I also encouraged her to do an inventory of her skills and experiences and try to target jobs that were functionally within that realm. Since it is easier to get a job while having a job, perhaps something within the ballpark of your partner’s target job would be “good enough” for now.

      She also had a Master’s degree that was largely irrelevant to her target jobs, so I recommended she remove it from jobs where it wouldn’t be an asset. That seemed to garner her more interviews.

      Eventually she gave up and she’s enrolled in a coding bootcamp, so we’re girding ourselves for nearly a year of unemployment after years of her being underemployed. Tough situation. Hoping yours works out!

    12. Daisy*

      I’m not sure what industry your spouse is coming from or looking to go into, but as someone who is currently hiring for a mid-level position that’s enough of a hybrid to get applicants with a wide range of backgrounds, this would be my advice to him or others in a similar position:

      Make clear in your cover letter that you are looking to transition and why. The “why” should focus on your interests and career goals, not money.

      Do leave off or minimize completely unrelated experience and degrees. Put them at the bottom of your resume as single lines. That way they’ll fill in your timeline but won’t make it look like a) you don’t know what this job is or b) you think your unrelated experience is more related than it is.

      Address transferable skills explicitly in your cover letter. Why do you think you’ll be better at this job than someone with less work experience who will accept lower pay?

      This is just get-in-the-door advice – if he’s been getting interviews but no offers, that’s a different issue.

  4. GoingToOz?*

    Folks who have moved to the other side of the world, particularly if you brought a spouse and/or child, can you tell me about your experience?
    I’m in the US, and I have a first round interview for a position in Australia. Obviously it’s a long way from accepting a job offer (there would be a fly out, and I would ask for arriving 24 hours before the interview if they want to bring me). My husband lived in Aus for a year after college and liked it, which is why I even applied to this job, but the idea of hauling myself, my husband, and our kid to the other side of the world sounds really daunting. (And we’d probably need to rehome our beloved cat, because I’m not taking a 14 year old cat on a 20+ hour travel journey–I think that might kill him)

    1. Phoenix Programmer*

      Just so you know, Australia does (or did at least did a decade ago) require mandatory quarintine of animals brought in.

      1. GoingToOz?*

        I’m actually less worried about the quarantine than the travel based on some health issues. I don’t think any of it would be fair to him, so I’d try to find him a loving home in our current city. It would completely break my heart to leave him, but I’m convinced it would be for the best :'(

        1. Sharkie*

          Do you have family / friends who can take him? Also I would talk to your vet, usually they are great with helping with rehoming. I’m sorry this is a choice you have to make.

          1. GoingToOz?*

            Well, no, not if I’m not offered the job! And if I’m not offered it, then it’s an easy “Well, at least my cat will get to stay with us!”
            Unfortunately our cat-loving friends already have cats who don’t like others. I am about 90% sure my neighbor would take him, though, because she really adores him, and he and her dog get along well (he’s an indoor cat, but her dog has been in my house).

      2. Venus*

        This is a general comment about pets and travel, not one specific to the OP (who has different worries):
        England and Australia have changed quite a bit in the past decade (I read up on it 5 years ago when I was looking at employment options and had pets). There might be a short quarantine (a few days or week), but essentially they try to avoid it with some very rigid steps. From what I recall they are (1) get a universal-standard microchip, (2) get the pet vaccinated for rabies 1-12 months before the trip, (3) do a blood titer test to confirm that the rabies vaccine was effective. There are also travel requirements for any international trips, requiring vet visits to ensure they are healthy, but the 6-month mandatory quarantines are easily avoidable with some careful paperwork.

        1. Mel 2*

          I brought my cat over from the US to the UK about 10 years ago, and the steps also must have been done in the order listed. Additionally, at the time, the rabies blood titer needed to be 6 months old.

      3. GreyNerdShark*

        I’m an Australian living in Sydney. Moving anywhere is hard… Americans moving to Oz usually manage OK but the first few months will be brutal. It is just enough like America to trap you when it isn’t… For example, rents here are weekly not monthly. So your instinctive reaction to checking websites for accommodation will be wrong. Schools for young children will start at different ages (because of the different summer/winter dates, our schools start in Feb) and you have to pay where citizens/permanent-residents don’t, medical cover for temporary entrants can be expensive and difficult to negotiate. Oh, and driving on the left is OK until you meet your first roundabout… In those first few months you will be finding somewhere to live, working out your commute, getting the kids into school, navigating the medical system… all the time while dealing with a new job. Hope the husband is good at organising because he’ll have to do most of it while you manage the job.
        As part of your research check the reddit for the city you will be going to. I only know http://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/ but the others have similar info. There’s lots of “moving to sydney” info in the sidebar.

        Public transport is the best way to get around if you can. Try to live close to a train station or really good buses and leave off getting a car till later. This is especially true if the job is in the CBD or one of the big tech centres. Budget an airBnB for the family close to work for a couple of weeks and be aware it might take longer than that to track down and acquire a place to rent. Then you’ll pay 6 weeks rent upfront (4 weeks bond, 2 weeks in advance) .

        1. Megan*

          I’m from Melbourne and don’t agree with you!

          In Melbourne we pay rent monthly not weekly, and they require 1 months bond and 1 months rent in advance.

    2. insufficient coffee*

      I’ve done this. There’s lots to consider moving overseas. I’ll talk about the spouse first: does he work remotely, are they sponsoring a work visa for him or is he happy being a stay-at-home spouse for the duration of your working life there? Basically, what is the long-term plan for him to work? (if there is one). The main thing to consider when moving halfway across the world is that you are necessarily landing in another culture. There is good and bad to this (and Oz is a wonderful place, I also lived there for a year after college, and would have been happy to live there permanently). But the things that are culture creep into all sorts of aspects of life, and you may often find yourself in a place of never quite feeling like you fit it. Some of it you can think about beforehand: Thanksgiving doesn’t happen, Hallowe’en wasn’t a thing when I was there (but I believe is becoming a little more popular), and Christmas is going to happen in the middle of summer. And, some things never feel right: a parlimentary system of government may be quite different from what you’re used to, and medical care will be quite different, there will most likely be sticker shock. In short it never quite feels like home. I’ve lived in several different countries around the world, and I’ve found that the first 6 months to a year to be the fun adventure part, and then there’s a rebound where nothing feels quite right and I get a little bit homesick and so many things of the new place just feel wrong.

      All this being said, I personally loved Oz and would welcome the chance to move back!

    3. Keener*

      I moved to NZ after uni and even though I was hesitant to go it was the best experience posible for me in terms of growth and expanding my horizons. Not sure if you’re putring s time frame on the move but for me it was reasuring to initially think of it being for a year with an option to extend. I cant directly comment on the spouse and child side since I had neither. However I had lots of colleagues who moved to NZ with their spouse and children in tow and it seemed to work out for them.

    4. Sharkie*

      I haven’t done this but I have family who has. Basically everything but your important papers, photos, clothes, and some sentimental things are replaceable. My uncle sold/ donated all the stuff that they couldn’t pack in their suitcases, and gave all the “heirloom” pieces (some furniture, jewelry he was saving for his kids ect.) to my mom to store. They also sold the cars to friends and family who had kids near driving age.

      Most companies pay you a huge bonus to relocate especially with kids. This might cover the cost of buying new furniture/ shipping over things that didn’t fit in your suitcase.

    5. Ruth (UK)*

      Not a first-hand experience exactly, but I am the child of an American mother who relocated to the UK shortly before I was born. My family has also become close / family friends with other families who moved here from abroad, and one of my best friends moved here from South India when she was 14 as her father moved here for work. One thing that’s affected me (as the ‘child’ in this situation, though I am now an adult) is a feeling of disconnect from the rest of my family etc.

      I was unable to see my grandfather shortly before his death a few years ago and often on holidays etc I’ve felt disconnected from family-related activities when/if I’ve been unable to travel out to the states at those times. This has been heightened as I’ve become an adult. I can’t afford the amount of leave from work (+ cost of travel) but my retired parents can… meaning I’ve spent more than 1 Christmas period completely alone in the UK city where I live, while my parents return ‘home’ to my other family (and my brother goes to his girlfriend’s family).

      I don’t feel fully British, but I definitely don’t feel American. This is a bigger deal for my Indian friend who’s been here since she was 14. She said she will never feel, or feel she can be perceived to be fully British – but she also feels she would now be unable to return and live again in India. She told me even I would find it easier than her to go live in India now (she said because I am English and white, my lack of conforming to / understanding to certain things in the culture would be explained/understood. But because she looks and sounds Indian, she could not get away with not fully conforming [to a lifestyle she no longer wants to conform to].

      That said, I don’t necessarily mean to put you off. These issues, though perhaps sounding like a big deal when I condense them into an internet post/comment, actually are not a daily thing. Overall, my parents settled very well in the UK despite some initial culture shock / surprises at differences etc (some of which will be a non-issue for you as you’ve already spent a year in Aus). Most families I know who moved from abroad generally do very well after an initial adjustment period. Despite some feeling of disconnect etc I overall do not wish my parents had stayed in America and I am in fact very happy/glad to have grown up in the UK!

      I guess my conclusion is that you should absolutely take this opportunity if it feels right for you, but I just wanted to make you aware of some of the experience I have had or witnessed that might adjust how you do or approach certain things…

      1. LunaLena*

        My family moved to Korea when I was nine years old, and I feel exactly the same as your Indian friend: I don’t feel fully Korean or American (though I am definitely identify more as American), but because I am of Korean descent, I am expected to conform to Korean culture when I’m there. I can’t go back there and live there again for that reason; my norms are not theirs, and I stick out like a sore thumb, even though I still retain a lot of mannerisms and habits from when I lived there. I learned that one pretty quickly the last time I was there, when I contemplated teaching English there for a year after college – they treated me as a foreigner, but expected me to strictly follow their standards while non-Koreans in the program were given more leeway.

        Personally, I think living abroad is a great experience and I highly recommend it to everyone. But even with the advantage of going to an English-speaking country, definitely be prepared for cultural pitfalls and misunderstandings.

        1. Ruth (UK)*

          Speaking of cultural pitfalls / culture shock in another English speaking country, I have a friend who spent a term (semester) in China, a year in Tanzania, and then went to work in NZ. He is British with a Spanish parent. He said to me that he got the biggest culture shock in NZ! He said the reason was not that it was the most different, but that individual differences seemed to take him more by surprise. He said when he went to China and Tanzania, he did a lot more pre-prep learning about the culture, language etc (he is really into language learning which helped him in both these places). He said in NZ he just got repeatedly surprised by cultural differences and admitted he’d forgotten it would be so different, as the fact that English was the most common language had lured him into a false sense of security!

          On a similar note, I work in a university and we have a few American members of academic staff who have admitted to me that the culture is way more different than they had expected, and in ways they hadn’t expected (plus, I live in a largely rural county in the UK. It’s not like being in a big city or London or something).

        2. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

          I currently live in South Korea and I hear what you’re saying alot from Americans of Korean descent. Koreans here tend to be very critical towards Koreans who were either born outside of Korea or left and came back. Often times they’re treated very rudely and I’ve heard from more than one person that that’s the reason that they don’t want to stay in Korea.
          But I’ve had a similar experience while living in Germany. I have a German parent and was born and lived there for part of my childhood. I speak fluent conversational German with a local dialect. While this made it easier for me initially to get a work permit and residence permit, the cultural expectations were overwhelming at times. I was often criticized for smiling too much and a myriad of other things that just felt so foreign to me. It got to the point where all I wanted to do was to get out of there and I did. The funny thing is that in France where I lived before, I didn’t get any of that. I was able to just shamelessly be myself because they ascribed all my ‘bad’ behavior to being American and I actually got bonus points for speaking French because they didn’t expect that from us barbarian Americans.
          So, where I’m going with this is that actually I experienced the most difficulties in a culture where I expected it the least.

    6. Fibchopkin*

      I have lived in Japan and Hawaii with spouse, kiddo, and incredibly spoiled miniature dachshund in tow. Additionally, I grew up ferrying between Germany and the US with mom & dad, 2 brothers, and various family pets. I won’t say it’s not challenging, because of course, it is, but I will say that it’s seriously all about attitude. Some moments will feel overwhelming and too hard, but in my experience, the benefits FAR outweigh the moments of frustration. The key piece of advice I can give is to approach everything, as much as possible, with enthusiasm and a determination that THIS WILL BE A GOOD THING. Even if you don’t feel enthusiastic, try to fake it to yourself, because before you know it, you actually will be excited enough about all the numerous amazing things in store that you can deal with the box of heirlooms that got misshipped to China and with the gigantic fee you didn’t anticipate. Beyond that, here’s a few pieces of specific advice I would offer:

      1. Research schools and neighborhoods by getting in touch with ex-pats and service member spouses in the area. For Australia – there are several joint-military bases where a small number of U.S. Military Personnel get stationed with their spouses and families. These families will know the ropes when it comes to figuring out terrain, local school systems, etc. Your children may be eligible to be educated in the US DOD schools on base, or set up to service military & diplomatic families, depending on your job, which means they won’t have any problems with transferring credits or equivalent diplomas if you move back to the US before they graduate high school. Also, check for schools with International Baccalaureate Programs for the same reason.

      2. Do NOT try to find a house/lodging remotely without at least visiting the neighborhood and seeing the area in person at some point prior to signing any leases. Aside from the ridiculous amount of scamming that you risk, I guarantee you will regret something about the place and wish you had waited til you got there to find something. Yes, it truly sucks to live out of a long-term hotel for weeks (or even months, in one case, for me) while you house/apartment/condo/whatever hunt, but believe me, it beats the alternative by a mile.

      3. Be EXCITED! Raising the mancub in Japan for the first 4 years of his life afforded us the opportunity to travel to other places nearby (for you, that’ll be Polynesia, the Pacific Islands, and New Zealand) not to mention really experience the language, culture, and cuisine of another country in an immersive way. Our kid was better traveled than 90% of Americans by the time he was 3. This led to an expanded cultural perception and global awareness at an early age- something that many Americans lack simply due to the geography of the US. This is such an incredible opportunity for not just you and your husband, but for your kid. Like I said, I grew up in and out of Germany, which, yes, means that I don’t have the kind of hometown, best-friend-since-kindergarten types of experiences many Americans do, but instead, I had the opportunity to travel all over Europe, grow up speaking other languages (which I do realize isn’t really pertinent to your situation, but the rest is, I think) eating other types of foods, and experiencing other ways of life, even though my family really didn’t have much money. I would never trade it.

      1. GoingToOz?*

        You know, one of the things that’s actually on my radar is the lack of language exposure! I grew up with many spanish-speaking friends (in the US southwest), and while I can’t claim any great fluency, I can’t remember a time I didn’t understand spoken Spanish. And now I live in New England close enough to Quebec that I get to exercise my French (or Quebecois!) pretty frequently. So for an American, I’ve had a pretty multi-lingual life and I’d be sad to not have that for my kid. But at the same time, that’s not even possible in most of the US.

        It’s an academic position, so I’d technically be a Oz gov employee–I don’t know what that means for accessing things like American schools, but it does mean I’d be among a highly international group of people (the guy in the office next to me is from Perth, but he came to the US as a 22 year old grad student and has stayed, which is a different experience than moving as a mid 30s, early/mid career academic).

        1. Anon Librarian*

          Australia is multi-lingual. I’m only familiar with Sydney and Melbourne, but Sydney definitely has neighborhoods that predominantly speak another language just like in NYC. And there are a lot of Aboriginal languages. Language exposure is about as possible as in major US cities, but it’s more Asian and less South and Central American due to geography, obviously.

          Bonus: Australian English is more different from American English than I had expected. It’s easy to learn.

          I really enjoyed my time in Australia. It’s different from the US in more ways than most people expect. Be patient and open-minded when taking that in (as I’m sure you know to, based on what you wrote).

      2. Now in the Job (formerly Not Desperate for the Job)*

        I’d love to hear more on your perspective on relocating to Japan and how that process went for you and your family.

        My company has recently acquired another one that maintains offices in Tokyo, and I’ve been planning to do an MBA program in Japan. There’s a decently rated US university with a program in Tokyo, so it would all be in English, plus I might have the chance to stay on with my company while I study. I’ve already started working with my vet to figure out how to make sure my cat can skip the quarantine program in Japan, but the biggest remaining obstacle is….my husband. He is enthusiastic to support me, nervous about doing a trip like this, but definitely wants to go and be with me there.

        What was it like for the spouse in your partnership that wasn’t the reason for going to Japan? Any thoughts or advice on making that transition easier on them?

        1. Fibchopkin*

          The process was, in some ways, more complex than I expected (lining up medical care- more on that below), and in others, far less (finding housing was almost ridiculously easy).

          So for your pet- you absolutely CAN (and should) avoid quarantine by going to your vet between 90-120 days before you travel and having a rabies blood titer performed. It’s expensive, because even though drawing the blood and the test itself are fairly cheap, you have to overnight the draw to the Japanese. Also- be warned NOW- you have to give VERY early advance notice that you’re coming through APHIS – go herehttps://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/pet-travel/by-country/pettravel-japan and click on the “dogs and cats” drop down and It’ll give you the exact steps to take to avoid quarantine. Trust me, it is WORTH it!

          For your spouse, I think it really, really depends on personality here. For my hubbie, initially he was SO excited to be a stay-at-home dad and spend a bunch of extra time exploring Asia with the mancub in tow. Our son was a little less than 12 months old on the day of our move, and we were both jazzed at the idea of one of us staying home with him until pre-school. Alas, although he absolutely KILLED it as the SAH parent, after about a year, he started feeling a bit unfulfilled and antsy about getting back to his career. So, he buckled down, retook the GRE, applied at a few local international and US college campuses, and went back to grad school at just about the 13 month mark. Caveat here that obviously grad school is expensive, and child care was an additional modest expense. We were fortunate that my job came with great pay and benefits, and he had an untouched GI Bill which paid for the entire cost of tuition ad books. Going back to school made him feel back to his old, productive self since it was a tangible way to progress in his career and something to point to in future resumes (“Mr Fibchopkin, it looks like there’s a three year gap in your resume, can you tell us about that?” “Oh yes Ms. Hiring Manager, I took four years to live in Japan where I earned an MBA and as you can see at XX Date there, took the opportunity volunteer at Well Known Organization in Our Industry where I earned a lot about X and built some fantastic connections which could be a real asset.”) You may find that your spouse loves the time off and just enjoys the heck out of staying at home and taking the opportunity to do and go and see everything, but you should be prepared that he might need to find something to keep his resume fresh and keep himself feeling fulfilled. There’s school (like my husband did) or there are a bunch of volunteering opportunities there that he could take advantage of if you’re in Tokyo or on Okinawa. There are large U.S. military bases in both places that have things like animal shelters, USO’s, and MWR programs that always need volunteers. There are on-post job opportunities as well, but I would caution you to absolutely NOT count on him getting one of those. There are limited jobs available and military spouses and veterans get preference. To see listings- head to USAJobs.com and put in the closest FPO address, or search “Tokyo.” My husband found that, before getting into business school, he had a really hard time making friends, even though he’s very outgoing and that usually comes easy to him. There weren’t really any other stay-at-home dad meetup groups that he could find, and most of neighbors, while incredibly friendly, polite, and kind, were a little baffled by the concept of a working mom and a stay-at-home dad. Once he went back to school, though, he made TONS of friends from all over the world. So many of us find our tribes at work or at school, and for the first little while, he felt a little isolated and like his social circle was fully dependent on me and my work buddies. I would caution you to be prepared for that and to have your spouse start connecting with meetup groups online that address some of his interests so that you have something of a friend network in place when you get there.

          Getting healthcare set up was much harder than I expected. Japanese health care is excellent, and free for anyone who is there (or can prove they will be there) for 365 days or longer, but getting through the paperwork and records transfer is a NIGHTMARE. Also, there’s no real concept of a PCP or family doctor in Japan. You just go to the clinic or hospital for everything from checkups to illnesses or broken bones.

          Finally, I would say you should not even worry one little bit about any language barriers. I am fairly fluent in Korean (I would say my conversational, reading, and writing skills are about on par with a typical Korean highschool grad) and was really looking forward to expanding my Japanese and Kanji comprehension beyond the few phrases I had a handle on, but all of my neighbors and friends were so excited to having an English speaking partner, and so very, very insistent on being polite (their words) and speaking in English, that I barely every got to practice, even when I said I really wanted to!

        2. Fibchopkin*

          Sorry- I tried to reply, but I think I got carried away and it was too long- lol! If you PM me on reddit – u/Fibchopkin. I’d be happy to message you about my experiences :)

    7. londonedit*

      I don’t know if it’s something you can find to watch in the US somehow, but there’s a BBC programme called Wanted Down Under. The premise is that each episode features a couple or family where one person really wants to move to Australia, and the rest of the family maybe aren’t so sure. So they get to spend a week in Oz to test the lifestyle – they look at houses based on their budget, they talk to people in their industries, they do a comparison of their likely living costs in Australia and the UK, and they explore the area they’re thinking about moving to. It’s daytime TV so it’s not massively in-depth, but it’s quite interesting to see how people’s opinions change depending on the information they discover about the various aspects of the lifestyle they might have. If you can find it anywhere to watch, it might be vaguely helpful!

      1. tarzzee*

        A long, long time ago I was the Australian employee on this show. I had a camera crew follow me around for a whole day and showed the UK-job seeker around my work. It was sooo awfully nerve wracking, I had to do interviews and all sorts…
        Apparently they also thought it was awful and all of my ‘speaking’ parts were cut from the show!! Which I was hardly disappointed about!

        1. Sassy Spacek*

          londonedit and tarzzee, I love this show! I also feel like nobody who appears on the show appears to have watched the show as they are always shocked when it comes to the “how much would your food shopping and bills be in Australia” segment. Also it seems like everyone’s ideal of living in Australia is having a swimming pool so maybe they need an additional wake up call about how much work pools are and that they aren’t really standard in Oz. It doesn’t seem like a lot of people actually end up making the move but I check the follow up and am happy for those who made it!

    8. Forrest Gumption*

      I relocated from Florida to South Africa for a year, and even brought my not-super-healthy 19-year-old cat! (She did just fine on the flight, FWIW.) My advice: make sure you REALLY want to move and do tons of research. How many times have you visited? Have you investigated the social opportunities, the price of groceries and gas, whether or not your partner can work, what the schools are like for your kids? Tax implications? Cost of moving? It’s a huge upheaval of your life, and you have to be really sure you want to do it. If you’re not 100% sure, I would recommend giving it a one-year trial run, and maybe not move your entire life over (or sell your cars/house back home) until you have settled in and decided you’re in it for the long haul (this is also a good idea because you may end up hating it, or become super homesick). That way you don’t have to uproot/start over again after a relatively short period of time. And make sure you get as much as possible from your future employer, if you get the job offer. Negotiate the max salary, the max relocation funds, any other perks that you can think of. Because moving is hard, and expensive. In my case, my husband was not able to work, and it was harder than we expected to make friends in SA. The first we anticipated, the second not. We decided for both these reasons not to stay longer than a year, and were glad we didn’t buy or ship over furniture, cars etc., which made it much easier to leave.

    9. Bula!*

      This is dated advice as I’m 40 now. When I was 8, we moved to Fiji for my dad’s job. From the perspective of a kid, it was really amazing. I was old enough to have a lot of wonderful memories.

      I attended an international school, which had it’s ups and downs. I had just finished 2nd grade, gone through summer, and then had a few weeks of 3rd when we moved. At which point it was summer vacation in Fiji, so I had more time off. At the school, they put me in with my age group. A year later when we moved back (from Fiji to Maine in February!), I shimmied ahead a grade to stay with kids my age again. I had issues with my teacher hating Americans and picking on me in class. My parents talking to the teacher straightened that out. I don’t remember what we learned differing from an American education aside from a lot of history on Fiji. The cultural experiences were amazing as were the gorgeous beaches.

      I moved every couple years when I was a kid within the States, so this was just a new school with a different culture set in a really amazing place. I don’t know how old your child is, but it was overall a positive experience for me. And in today’s internet age, it should be easy to keep in touch with old friends.

    10. Rebecca*

      I traveled as a teacher for a little over a decade, where I was always an expat, and now I’ve immigrated to France to be with my partner and stepson – so I guess now I am the trailing spouse.

      If you go with a good company that is actively looking for expats or who is at least welcoming you as one, and will be providing on going support as you settle in (from the big stuff like helping you navigate real estate and giving you an advance on your salary to cover deposits and things, to the small stuff like helping you figure out how to book a doctor’s appointment the first time you get sick) then this can be a really wonderful experience. The fact that you share the language means you likely won’t be living in an expat bubble. The worst that will happen is that it will suck, and you’ll want to come home in a year or two. How old is your child(ren)? If they are elementary age, there is almost no risk to their education long term, except that they might not like it. My parents took me to Scotland for a year my first year of high school and they really worried – for the first few weeks I was so anxious I made myself physically ill, but I rallied and had an excellent year. Right now I’m teaching a 10 year old whose American parents just relocated to France from America, and she speaks no French and – she’s managing, and by Christmas, she’ll be thriving. Your kids are more adaptable and flexible than you are.

    11. AcademiaNut*

      I moved to the other side of the world, single at the time but acquired a spouse in the new place. I also have a lot of colleagues who have made similar moves with cats and spouses and kids. You have one big advantage in that you’re moving to an English speaking country.

      – most important, will your work visa give your husband the right to work? This isn’t always a given, and a spouse who can’t work can be a real problem for general life satisfaction. If they can work, what are the chances of getting a job? If not, can they work remotely for a job back in the US, and what are your plans if they can’t get employment?

      – school-wise, it will take your kids some time to adapt to the local curriculum. History classes, for example, will be entirely different. If you’ve got kids in high school with ambitions for top universities, you may need to think a bit about how to manage this, and what their options are. If you’ve got small children, ask about daycare – I’ve had friends relocate countries to be told “yes, we have an opening for your children. In two years.”

      – international moves are particularly hard if you’ve got special health/education needs. Health and school systems work very differently in different countries, it takes time to get set up with new providers, and you may not be able to match what you had at home.

      – the culture shock is more subtle and less expected moving somewhere like Australia than somewhere completely foreign (I’ve moved to both the US and East Asia), because it looks and sounds more similar, but still has more fundamental differences.

      – in general, you need the ability to be flexible, and to go with the flow. If you can’t, the experience is a lot more likely to be miserable.

      – if you fly out for an interview, go for more than 24 hours of exploring time! Ask about the neighbourhoods where people live, what the rental process is, school systems, health system. Drive around some neighbourhoods. Check out the local grocery stores and playgrounds, look at parks, take lots of pictures for your family back home.

      – I agree with you about the cat. That’s a huge stress on the animal. And if you do end up taking the can, please, please, don’t let it outside – Australia (and its birds) is particularly vulnerable to introduced predators.

    12. Julie Noted*

      Heads up: if you do end up moving to Australia, don’t call it Oz or Down Under. Those names kinda give us the shits.

      Also, re schooling – there aren’t many “American” schools and they’re not highly thought of.

      I disagree with the commenter who said you don’t need to plan to have a car. That depends hugely on where you live. If you’re in the inner city, public transport is readily available. Otherwise not so much.

      1. M*

        Re: the car, it also depends on which city, and (the OP mentioned in comments it’s an academic position) which university the position is with. Can’t imagine trying to work at La Trobe without a car, but for RMIT/Melbourne not having a car would be pretty simple, for example.

        Re: schooling, yeah, American international schools aren’t really a thing here. (Neither are charter schools: it’s either (usually religious, though not always heavily) private schools or state-run public schools. It’s worth doing your research on the local public schools when you’re picking your location – the primary schools tend to be much of a muchness, but the secondary schools can vary quite widely, and being in a catchment area for a very good one can massively increase house prices. If you’re considering private school, that’s a whole different kettle of fish – at a primary school level, it’s pretty pointless, so if your child(ren) are at a primary school age I wouldn’t bother, but at a secondary school level it’s a much more complicated decision, and one that it’s worth doing a lot of research about (there’s a pretty wide spread in quality) before committing to a particular school.

        1. Megan*

          Completely agree, most definitely need a car for La Trobe or Deakin (they both have trams but are far away from the city in the suburbs) but could do without for Melbourne or RMIT!

    13. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      I know many people who have travelled with older pets and it has worked well. Don’t think ‘kitty can’t do that!’. Many senior pets can travel despite illness/health issues. (I’ve done 14 hour car rides with elderly pets, many with health issues, flew with a special needs cat, etc.)

    14. Went to HK*

      My family and I recently returned to the US from living in Hong Kong for a number of years. My spouse grew up there and wanted to move back. Our kids were very young then and we luckily founds jobs there. We returned so our children could spend their high school years in the US in preparation for applications to US universities. I should note I have never lived abroad before.
      Despite Hong Kong being relatively English speaking, I found it very difficult to adapt to the first several years and questioned myself often why I had done this. I had thought it would be an enlightening adventure, broaden our horizons but got sucked into the unfamiliarity and it simply took time to learn how to get around, where to go, and HOW to do things. I had moved within the US before but this was a combo location change plus culture change.
      That said, I now look positively on the experience. I miss some of the great foods there and also some of the culture aspects such as the small local cafes that are open late, the speed at which some things can get done, etc. There are pros and cons to just about everywhere and it just took me some time to learn about the pros. That’s my experience.

  5. But I Don't Wanna Be a Pirate...*

    I feel like my team forces me to micro-manage, and I’m very discouraged about it.

    I’ve managed a group of customer service/support reps for the last 4 years. We handle support calls and process support tickets. The group has always been micro-managed by our former director. In fact, if he didn’t feel that I was micro-managing enough, he just jumped in and micro-managed for me. It’s one of the biggest complaints of the reps; they feel like they’re being treated like children. Sooo…. director retired in May, and I have actively tried to change this, but it is turning out to be a disaster. We are not hitting goals, people are cutting corners, and things are just not being done. I’ve had to revert to the same tactics, daily emails about goals, harping about the same mistakes and correct SOPS, almost hourly reminders of how many support tickets are pending, standing over people who’ve taken themselves off of the phones. I understand that managing means holding people to account for their performance, but I feel like I am micro-managing to the extreme. I just feel like such a failure. At least when old director was here, I could blame this on his management style, but I really thought that I had the opportunity to turn things around when he retired. New director is absolutely baffled that the reps need this much hand-holding and just says “I guess we’ll have to go back to the old way.”

    How do I fix this???

    1. JustKnope*

      Can you choose one area of improvement to focus at a time? Going from extreme micro-management to a lot of autonomy all at once might be too overwhelming for them! Maybe choose one area per week to start stepping back from, and clearly articulate what you need them to be doing differently. “Team, I’m not going to be reminding you about the amount of open tickets this week – I need you to be continually checking in on that and be aware of it.” And then, if it piles up too much, say something in the moment like “There are too many support tickets open right now. You should have checked this X minutes ago.” Then later, have the “What happened today that you let too many tickets pile up?” convo. I think by giving them the reins gradually, being REALLY specific about the behaviors you need to see change and correcting them in the moment plus with the big-picture conversations could really help.

      1. Qwerty*

        Agreed on focusing on one thing at a time. Just wanted to add on that as employees start learning to be autonomous again, you will likely need to switch from team-based goals to focusing on individual performance. Some people adjust to new rules/policies faster than others.

        Don’t lose hope or beat yourself up! The old director’s management probably drove good people away and/or caused them to lose any motivation to work independently. It isn’t just that they need hand-holding – micromanagers tend to discourage good professional behavior. They’ve spent the past X years being told not to think for themselves, so they’ve mentally given up on it.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Start documenting performance issues and if people are doing their job poorly, start putting them on PIPs. Right now, it sounds like all you’re doing is the same thing that you’ve been doing, and they’re not seeing any real consequences.

    3. JimmyJab*

      It sounds like you have to micromanage for now to meet your goals but there needs to be some serious discussions with your staff, clear expectations set (again if necessary), and consequences for failing to meet those expectations. It sounds like that is something that could take awhile given how poorly they’ve performed without your previous director around.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Explicitly. Have one on one conversations with each and every single one of your people, lay out exactly what you’re seeing from them specifically, tell them exactly what you want to see, and ask them how they can get there. Be very clear, even blunt. Do not try to sugar coat it. This is a performance issue now – and while you can give them some initial leeway and time to change, they have to change. Also, be prepared that some of your people may not be capable of working more independently and you may ultimately have to manage someone out.

    5. Kes*

      I think beyond what others have already said, it’s worth explaining to them that you would like to step back but that will only work if they are willing to step up and take more initiative themselves. It’s hard to say at this point if they are not good enough to do their jobs independently or are just so used to the micromanagement they don’t think to take any initiative. I think you may need to actively encourage and retrain their way of thinking for a while. However, at some point you may need to start managing some of them out if they truly can’t do their job without micromanagement.
      (Also, keep in mind your set of workers may be self-selected to be those who are okay with and need micromanagement – the ones who don’t have likely already left and it may take time to readjust and rebuild the team back to be able to work independently)

    6. Colette*

      Have you been really clear about what they need to do?
      I.e. I need you each to handle 50 support calls a day. Your overall approval rating should be 80%. You need to be available to take calls 90% of the time. You need to follow our procedures as written.

      And then once you have been super clear, start holding them accountable (“I see you were off the phones for an hour yesterday. What happened?”) and manage them out if you have to.

      Do you listen calls and review support tickets? There is usually a team that is responsible for that – do you have that set up?

    7. Susan K*

      What are the consequences for not meeting goals? It looks like you’re taking all the responsibility for the success or failure of the team, so you’re the only one who cares. It sucks to have to discipline people or be the “mean” boss, but they need to see that they will be held accountable for their performance. Your company probably has a policy about the disciplinary process, so use it. The good ones will realize you’re serious and catch on quickly; the bad ones may have to be let go.

      Since this will probably be a major change from the way you currently operate, I would suggest warning them about it. Tell them that you don’t want to micromanage them any more than they want to be micromanaged, but in order for you to trust them to do their jobs without you standing over them, you’re going to need to see improvement, and if you don’t, there will be consequences through the disciplinary process.

    8. Public Sector Manager*

      I wouldn’t describe your situation as micro managing the staff. Micromanaging is usually a lack of trust in the ability of the person to get the job done so the manager just does it for them. Here, it sounds like you’re giving them the space to do their tasks and they refuse to do them. As Red Reader noted, that is definitely a PIP issue not a micromanaging issue.

      Before you’re going down the PIP route, take a step back and first see if everyone has been properly trained. It’s one thing to be insubordinate and refuse to do those things you’ve been trained to do. It’s another to never have the proper training in the first place. If it’s been ages since anyone has been trained, retraining should be the first step.

      If everyone has been trained, then you have to have one-on-one conversations with the offenders. Group discussions of these issues never work because (1) some people never see themselves as a problem even though they are (2) people who aren’t a problem always think that you’re talking about them when you aren’t.

      Once you’ve had the one-on-ones, give the good employees the flexibility to get the job done. And for the ones who aren’t doing their job, document their performance, do a PIP, and see what develops.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Before you’re going down the PIP route, take a step back and first see if everyone has been properly trained. It’s one thing to be insubordinate and refuse to do those things you’ve been trained to do. It’s another to never have the proper training in the first place. If it’s been ages since anyone has been trained, retraining should be the first step.

        This is a good point. I remember when I used to work for EvilLaw Firm, and I was given four weeks of training on the foreclosure process in my state and a neighboring state, plus an additional two weeks on a client-specific tracking site. I was fantastic at my job and really knew the ends and outs of it. However, the employees who were hired after me only received one and a half to two weeks of training on the foreclosure process and the client-specific tracking site, so they frequently did things wrong or half-assed. When people who had been there for years would complain about them and having to clean up their messes later, I’d say, is it any wonder? They were barely trained. Unfortunately, our department’s workload was too high and the team lead in charge of training was just too swamped doing her work and our manager’s that no one could be retrained. People ended up being fired because of it, or they quit in frustration.

    9. Ama*

      One thing I have realized in managing a direct report who just doesn’t have a lot of work experience is that if someone has always been able to get by with someone else overseeing their workflow (in my report, it’s that her teachers always set deadlines, gave out syllabi, etc. for your team it’s that the former director handled all their workflow reminders), they have to be encouraged and taught how to develop their own systems for tracking things when that oversight is taken away.

      With my direct report, I will occasionally volunteer how I keep track of different types of tasks, but I have encouraged her to come up with her own ways of doing things because I know what works for me might not work for her (and I’ve also made sure she knows we have some money to buy needed supplies for this — for example the big calendar she asked for to write various deadlines out on because it was easier for her to visualize her time management than on our electronic calendar). I make it clear that the end result is the most important thing here — if she’s turning in a solid work product on schedule, I don’t care if her process for tracking is post-its or tying strings on her fingers, it just needs to work consistently. We do occasionally chat about what her process is and how it’s going, just so I can try to catch anything that might be going off the rails — I actually am planning another check in in a couple of weeks as we’ve now evolved past simple “improvement of time management” to “how to track things you need to remember from one project to another.”

      The other piece, which other commenters have already mentioned, is to ease them into it a bit at a time, maybe with some advance warning. Her first year, I largely focused on handing over in-office admin tasks and getting her to manage those largely independently while keeping a closer eye on our event planning tasks; this year I gave her a heads up that more of the event planning would be on her to plan, initiate, and execute with just periodic updates to me.

    10. Kathenus*

      Lots of great advice already. I’m going to highlight one that’s been alluded to but not really brought front and center. Have a discussion (with individuals or even better the group as a whole if possible) that very specifically talks about the topic of micro-managing. Let them know that you’ve heard them for years that this was a concern of theirs, and that when you took over you listened and have been working to take that feedback and not do this.

      But then talk openly about the fact that since you’ve pulled back from micro-managing that as a group they’re not meeting goals, that some are cutting corners, and things aren’t being done. Let them know that you’re frustrated that you are giving them the freedom they asked for to monitor their own behavior and that it’s not working. Have some ideas to improve (checklists, specific assignments, whatever), but ask for their ideas.

      Let them know clearly that they need to meet performance objectives, and that you want to trust them to have some freedom in this with you managing at a higher level, but that this is completely dependent upon them – as a group and individuals – rising to the task. They don’t want to be micro-managed, you hear them, so you need them to work with you to perform at a high level so it’s not necessary. But, that at the end of the day, that meeting business needs is the top priority, so either they do this without heavy oversight or if they don’t that you’ll need to manage them closely.

      Be clear, engage them in the solution, but at the end of the day make it clear the business needs take top priority.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        If the group as a whole was functioning while being micromanaged, and has fallen apart when shifted to a non-micromanaged style, but the non-mm style seems to be a better strategy in the long run … then I think bringing the group into the planning for it is crucial.

        Setting measurable targets (no more than 5 high priority tickets open for more than x time, or whatever) and then creating transparent/real time processes to manage those targets can help to shift the managing of the microbits to the staff. They can micromanage themselves because all they have to look up and see what’s next. Folks who can’t succeed with that can get some additional scaffolds to help (hourly reminder to check the ticket board status, or whatever). Management’s role turns into pointing at the process and celebrating successes, rather than laboriously dealing with every microbit. Those who can’t succeed with the scaffolds can get help with developing skills or can be urged to find work that better suits their style.

    11. thatoverthere*

      Is their good behavior/goals/number of tickets achieve you can reward? I found when I managed a small group of people that rewarding the good behavior worked better than reprimanding. Every month I would have a different goal and a way to achieve it. The winner got a gift card, or an extra paid day off. When month I even did a bingo board. Each square had a different goal and they hit they checked it off. Every time they hit bingo they got a gift card. We increased average ticket sales by 50% after I implemented it. You may be able to tailor something like this to fit your particular needs.

    12. Mockingjay*

      One thing that has not been mentioned is an evaluation of the workload. Is your team truly adequately staffed to handle the tickets in the required time? Are required response times unrealistic? Are your team members simply burned out?

      As part of your conversation with them, ask them what they need to succeed. Do they have new ideas on how to better manage the ticket queue? Do they need more training or refresher training? What do they need from you as a manager? Frame it as team collaboration, rather than manager/employee hierarchy. They are probably rather wary of their relationship with you, as a carryover from the former manager. It may take some time to reset the relationship.

      1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

        Yeah, I honestly suspect that OP doesn’t have the power to fix this situation. I’m guessing the fundamental problem is that working at a call center sucks, having a computer watching you all day sucks, having a bunch of micro-metrics you’re being judged on daily sucks. I think there are other models for doing support/call center type work that could make them more fulfilling, but it’s not super likely that OP could make them happen.

        My best advice: find ways to make the job more tolerable (even little things, like snacks in the breakroom on Fridays or an extra 15 minute break here and there, can make a big difference), and try to find ways to give folks more ownership. Do they understand the “why” of these jobs? Are they trained to understand and execute rote processes and tasks, or are they trained to empathize with the customer and take ownership of their problems? I’ve worked “crappy” jobs that I really enjoyed, and the key was really ownership and autonomy. “Follow this flow chart and put the results in this field” is a crappy job. Having power to help this customer stop pulling their hair out and actually resolve their issue can be a much better job.

      1. ampersand*

        This is what I’m thinking. And/or they like receiving this level of oversight, which points to them likely not being the right people for these positions.

    14. Lana Kane*

      I am in your shoes now. I walked into managing eams that were being micromanaged and not helped to perform individually. What I’m doing, that seems to be working:

      -I assessed the workflows to make sure that people aren’t cutting corners for a valid reason. If quotas are unreasonable, for example, address this first. People mainly want to meet quotas because many companies make this a priority over quality.
      – I identified the areas that needed work and made sure I had documentation in place to explain the correct process, and best practices
      -I met with the team and explained that some things would be changing: That some processes weren’t being followed but that I would now be ensuring they were, that I’d be doing some quality checks, and I would be emailing them details of what I’m looking at. I also told them where the resources were and offered to answer any questions they had.
      -I picked one or two improvements at a time. Making sweeping changes would be overwhelming.
      -After I announced each change, I made it a point to have a robust QA system for each person. Depending on how many direct reports you have, you can do this for everyone, or divide them into smaller groups to tackle at a time. This process will likely be time consuming, but it’s essential.
      -If you do regular 1:1’s, go over any non-urgent errors then. Anything urgent/time sensitive, bring to their attention right away. Chase this conversation with an email so both of you have documentation. I save my coaching emails so I can keep track, so I can cover my butt if someone says I didn’t tell them something, and to see if I can identify patterns that can be overlooked if you are always putting out fires.
      -Now, after all changes have been announced and socialized, and after people have indicated they understand – this becomes a performance issue and you can use your company’s process to get that started.

      Some notes:
      –Look at this process as a key part of your job as a manager. Don’t put it off, because not keeping track of performance is how many people stay in roles that they under-perform in. Aside from the impact this has on your customers and company, the morale hit on their teammates who do perform is considerable.
      –You will be micromanaging during this process, unfortunately. Human nature is such that changes can take time, especially if you are asking people not to use what they consider to be time saving measures. This will include explaining things more than once, and checking in to make sure your documented resources are accurate and working for them. But if you find yourself explaining over and over, you start telling people to look at the resources before you answer any questions. This is hard, because you want to just move on. But if people can get an answer faster from you, they will just come to you rather than read the documentation.
      –The larger the team is, the longer it will take. Make sure your managers are on board and you have their support to undertake all of this. Because if you don’t, this won’t work as well. You can still try and have some success with individual people, but the team may not see improvement as a whole. And if some people can get away with cutting corners, others will follow suit because, why not?
      — Set a timeline for yourself with small goals. You may not meet them at first because you may not know how long this will really take, but this will give you perspective.

      Best of luck! Like I said, I am in the middle of this right now and I’m seeing some really surprising improvements.

      1. Lana Kane*

        One more thing: I also supervise people who are on phones a lot. This is demanding work that requires a lot of attention. Make sure their processes are not overly complicated, or require tjem to do things that are hard to do when attending to phones. Please keep that in mind as you assess your workflows.

    15. Researchalator Lady*

      Escalation and consequences. It sounds like it’s flat – you stand over them and tell them to get back on the phone, they do for a while, you see them off the phone again, go over and tell them to get on the phone again, rinse and repeat. Go to (for example) reminder, writeup with up to 3 strikes per day, each time invited to think of a strategy that would be helpful to them to avoid a further strike; if they get past 3 strikes on the same day they are sent home. On the subsequent day they skip the reminder and go to the 3-strikes, and are terminated or suspended after the 3rd strike. This gives a generous 7 chances in the case where the mistakes are small and easy to correct, but still provides a way to terminate someone who is failing to try to perform almost immediately.

    16. Degen From Upcountry*

      Is there any opportunity to split the roles so that you have a subgroup of reps taking calls all day, and a subgroup handling tickets and back office work? You could either create fixed positions (maybe with taking calls being level one in a career path and handling tickets being level two) or rotate week by week.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This is also a good idea and one that was eventually implemented at the law firm I used to work for.

    17. Galahad*

      Turn it back to your reps…
      1) Figure out (you and director) what your three top goals of the group are — e.g., 90% of orders are placed correctly with only a single client contact.

      2) Go to your reps, Have them choose which indicators that they can control or influence to have the best impact on the goals you set. One person may choose to answer the phone within 15 seconds, another may choose to respond to all email inquiries within a day, a third may choose to have a daily check in with production, or to complete a certain task by morning coffee break.
      Each rep sets a daily target for themselves on this measure.

      3) Now hold daily (weekly?) short (15 min stand up) meetings, where each rep states how they did the previous day and you review top items for that day. You mark it on a wall chart as you go (one for each rep / measure), and weekly you update the team goal tracking. When a target does not get met, ask that rep what they will do differently (not to chastise, just empower them to own it, like a normal person).

      4) If the team goal is continually not being improved upon, then reps can change up their measures to something that is a better predictor of success. Learn as you go.

      Ideally, set ONE goal to start. When you hit that for a while, change it to a new goal.
      ONE team goal at a time is likely to be attained. Three or more are not.

    18. Trout 'Waver*

      Lots of good advice from the other posters. Most people will leave for a new job rather than suffer through being micromanaged. You may have essentially distilled off the people who could find jobs elsewhere and you’re left with the dregs.

  6. Marian the Librarian*

    I have an interview for a job that involves working with software applications, including web based content management systems. I’ve definitely done this type of work before, but you need a degree in Computer Science or related field. I’m worried that they want someone with IT experience, but you only need 1 year of experience. Also, the job says, “Open until filled”. I’m not sure what that means
    For the interview, they assigned one date and time. (Example: 3:30 on Monday, with no other options.)

    Are these bad signs? Any thoughts or advice is appreciated.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve definitely done this type of work before, but you need a degree in Computer Science or related field.

      You need it? Or the job description says you need it?

      I’m not saying it’s easy to get a job that you aren’t qualified for on paper, but I do not have a degree in computer science or a related field, and I definitely work in IT and have worked with web-based content management systems at jobs before. Until recently, I didn’t even have any certifications.

      I’m worried that they want someone with IT experience, but you only need 1 year of experience.

      Do you have experience of any kind? Do you have that one year doing anything IT-related, even if that wasn’t your primary job?

      1. Marian the Librarian*

        I have an MSLIS, but no IT certifications. Yes, I have experience with HTML, doing system admin work, and have done lots of library database work- both front and back end work.

    2. Dr Wizard, PhD*

      ‘Open until filled’ generally means there’s no deadline for applications, they’ll just assess them and schedule interviews (or not) as they come in, and hire someone once they think that person looks good for the role.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      “Open until filled” means they’ll (theoretically) leave the post up and continue reviewing applications until the position has been filled. This in contrast to a posting that had an apply by or expiration date.

    4. Grapey*

      I would think they are bad signs if you don’t think you could do the comp sci/IT related tasks.

      I also work with a few web based CMSs and I’m responsible not only for maintaining the web UI based on what users need, but I also have to deal with server maintenance and customized scripts to keep the software running. Someone that only knew the UI would not be a good fit for my job, but knowing their way around the app would at least be like 50% there.

      That said, I got my server admin skills on the job by focused training from the soon-to-retire sysadmin, and I don’t have formal IT or comp sci training either.

    5. Kes*

      I think all you can do is go to the interview and see – some places do require degrees, some may list it as desired but be willing to hire someone without it provided they can do the job. The fact that they’ve given you an interview may be a good sign. Many people have started elsewhere and ended up working in IT, regardless of their educational background.
      As for the assigned interview slot, that’s not great but some places do that. If you really can’t make it you can push back, otherwise I would go and just look for other signs of rigidity in processes (and keep in mind, hiring processes run by HR and the area you’ll actually be working in may not operate the same way, and the latter will matter much more to you)

    6. Kiwiii*

      None of these sound particularly red-flaggy. They’ve probably seen that you’ve done technical-adjacent work before and so aren’t being strict about IT-experience and/or degrees. Open until filled just means they continually interview until they find the right candidate instead of having a strict schedule. Assigning a date/time is a little weird, but not /not/ done and assuming they’d have been flexible if you let them know you weren’t available, is fine.

      For what it’s worth, my recent job shift into more technical work went absolutely fine. I hadn’t had any formal training, though had done some medium-level excel/data organization from government systems, and moved into a role using xml. If they’re worried about your experience level, they’ll let you know.

    7. The Shirt Remembers*

      I work in IT.

      At least in my neck of the woods “Computer Science or related field” degree can often be substituted with actual work experience in the field, particularly if they are asking for 1 year of work experience and you have more than that (say, 3-5 years). So if you’ve done this type of work before, be prepared to talk about that in your interview. What you want to be able to do is demonstrate to the interviewers that you’re familiar with the conceptual framework of the technology (so even if you haven’t used their specific system, you have the knowledge that can be extended to their particular setup) and that you are confident you can learn new and adjacent technology skills.

    8. Jellyfish*

      Am I correct in assuming this is a library job? I know that at least in academic libraries, some schools are having trouble finding librarians with adequate computer skills for the tech heavy jobs. At least two in my area are starting to drop the MLIS requirement in favor of a computer science degree. If you have the tech skills and the librarian skills / education, I’d say go ahead and apply.

      1. Jellyfish*

        Oh, should have read more carefully. You did apply and now you have an interview. Maybe note some of your concerns and find ways to watch for those issues and ask questions about those areas?
        Good luck!

    9. Armande Klockhammer, Jr.*

      Not really enough information in your question. Two observations:

      1. They want to interview you. Despite some of the incredible stories one reads here in AAM, they almost certainly wouldn’t interview you unless they knew they could offer you the job.

      2. This sounds like the kind of job where, essentially, they want someone who can do the work. Confidence, experience, and enthusiasm are your friends. Let them tell you what they need. Then let them know about your experience doing all / most of that stuff elsewhere. And if you haven’t done it – it’s kismet, you’ve been looking for a chance to work with that.

      2a. “Open until filled” sorta implies that they are looking for someone who will be around for awhile.

      2b. It *might* also imply that career growth opportunities are limited or nonexistent.

  7. Alternative Person*

    Short Version: What’s the ethics on taking a junior management position when you don’t plan to move up or on for a long time, that as a side effect essentially blocks ground level staff from being able to get the same promotion at that branch?

    Long Version: So I had a discussion with my manager at my part-time job as FT positions are opening soon, and we got on the topic of promotional opportunities. She told me junior management (including her) is basically staying put for the foreseeable future so if I wanted to become a junior manager myself, I would have to move abroad (we’re the only branch in the country we live in).

    I’m not necessarily adverse to moving to another country again, but I felt a little awkward as she essentially admitted to taking a promotion that people need not just for junior management, but senior management and basically every other position at that level

    I’m lucky in that I am able to move abroad if I so choose, but it seemed to me a little unfair to knowingly take a junior management position in an area where there’s already a shortage of good management/promotion positions (not just the company, pretty much the whole country) without any plans to move up within this branch for the foreseeable future, and as an unfortunate side effect effectively block everyone who comes after you who cannot for whatever reason move abroad. I don’t want to fault her or doubt that she had good reasons for taking the job (internal promotion) or say she didn’t need the pay raise, but at the same time she and the other junior managers are putting a lot of people between a rock and a hard place (the company is one of the very few in the area that provides good benefits and tuition support, so people are often loathe to leave) when it comes to progressing their own careers.

    Just, that part of the conversation made me feel uncomfortable.

    1. Colette*

      People are allowed to take the job they want. There is nothing wrong with taking a job that is in the promotion path to another job and just staying there. Not everyone can be promoted, or wants to be.

      In most companies, there are more junior positions than senior positions and people have to leave if they want to move up.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Yeah, I agree. It’s frustrating when you’re in a job where there’s no room for growth, but there’s not a moral imperative for junior managers to only take management jobs if they plan to move up in order to create room for growth. Your manager should be thinking about how to support you in your growth, but it sounds like she may actually be doing that by being transparent about what opportunities are likely to exist for you where you are right now.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I appreciate that there’s a shortage of these positions, but presumably this person is happy in her job. She’s good at what she does and wants to stay there, too. And I’d guess it must be fulfilling her needs in some number of other ways that she didn’t discuss with you. I wouldn’t begrudge her that.

      She’s not staying in this job “at” other people. She’s staying there out of her own concerns and needs. Not everybody wants to continue moving up and up in rank, for a lot of possible reasons, and that’s OK.

    3. JN*

      I’m not sure I quite understand the point you’re making – if she hadn’t taken that promotion, and had let someone else have it, wouldn’t that person then be “blocking” everyone else from moving up in the exact same way? Wouldn’t you be “blocking” them, if you did get the promotion?

      1. Alternative Person*

        I mean they’re planning on staying in position for way longer than really intended, twenty plus rather than say, five or even ten. It would be fine if only one of the Junior Managers had this plan, but it is all of them. And due to company structures, higher positions require the junior management experience before you’ll even be considered.

    4. Susan K*

      What’s the company going to do when they need to hire a senior manager? If none of the junior managers apply, the company will either have to hire externally or promote someone from non-management directly into senior management. If this situation has happened in the past, you can figure out which scenario is more likely. Maybe you’ll have to go elsewhere to get management experience in hopes of being hired back as a senior manager. Sometimes that’s it takes to move up.

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the junior managers wanting to stay in their positions. Unless it was an expectation when she was hired for the role that she would eventually be expected to move up to senior manager, why should she have to move up to a position she doesn’t want or, worse, couldn’t do well? Also, I wouldn’t read too much into the statement that junior management is staying put for the foreseeable future. That can easily change.

    5. Quinalla*

      I think it is good she was upfront that those folks aren’t going to be moving up or out for awhile. It may be there is no place above for them to go either! Being up front about this is a kindness to employees so they don’t waste time hoping they can advance somewhere when they can’t. I can understand not liking the situation for sure, but it is what it is and she is trying to be up front which is good!

    6. Kathenus*

      I agree with the other commenters that this is pretty normal in many organizations, and that it’s great that she was so open and honest about it. I work in a niche field that is hierarchical – lots of people at the front line, one manager, one director then upper management. And people at my organization tend to stay, so there are people in the manager/director positions that have been there for decades. Unless they move up or move on, the front line staff would need to move to another division or out of the organization if they want to advance. It’s unfortunate, but no one is doing something wrong by staying in the position that they have if that’s what meets their career or life goal. Even each front line person is effectively blocking someone else from getting their foot in the door. So I get the frustration but think it’s misplaced in this case.

    7. Semi Famous, Mostly Anonymous*

      If all the junior managers are planning on staying at the junior manager level (and not applying for additional opportunities within the company) — then the company will address this if it is a problem. Because the juniors can only move up if there are open positions to move to. And if the company has open positions and a lack of interested internal candidates, then the company should notice this. This is not an employee problem (people wanting to stay at the junior mgr level) this is a company problem.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I could be misreading here. But I think that if companies have a process to “grow new managers” and someone blocks that process so that others cannot come through the pipeline, then that blocking person gets moved out of the way.

      I worked for a company once where it was pretty clear, take the promotion offered or be side-lined forever. They don’t want any blocks in their process of training new managers. If a promotion came along you pretty much had to take it. It was dressed up as an “offer” but it really wasn’t an offer, it was marching orders.

      1. Clisby*

        My father worked for a large company like that. You could refuse one promotion (which usually included a transfer to a different state), but any more and you were never going anywhere. The only exception was that refusing to move to a different country didn’t count against you.

    9. Public Sector Manager*

      This is exactly the problem we have at my government agency. The state civil service rules read that you have to be a supervisor for at least 12 months before you become a manager. We have about 8 or 9 out of our 10 supervisors who have no intention of moving up. So whenever there is a manager vacancy, it’s usually the worst manager in the pack that puts in for the promotion. And we have to have a manager.

      We are constantly losing great employees because of terrible managers, and we get the terrible managers because good supervisors refuse to step up. Plus terrible supervisors aren’t put on a PIP because they have terrible managers. And they aren’t going to change the state’s civil service laws just to accommodate our agency.

      Every office is different, but for our office, good supervisors refusing to step up is a major problem.

    10. LilySparrow*

      I don’t understand the question.

      Are you proposing that one employee owes their promotion to someone else – some hypothetical future hire who wants to move up in the org but can’t, because the actual existing employee has “taken” the spot away from them?

      No, that’s ludicrous. It’s a job, not a handicapped parking space.

      By that logic, you, by virtue of existing, are current stealing air, nutrients, and real estate from all the babies who will be born next month.

      Any given company only has a finite number of jobs, but it is not the only employer in the world. People may want to live in that town and work for that company, and be promoted and not move.

      That doesn’t give their desires any sort of moral significance greater than the desires of people who want that stable, long-term junior position. Everybody has to make compromises in life, and everybody has to learn to cope with envy and jealousy.

      Just because someone else has the thing you want, doesn’t mean they stole it from you. It was never yours to begin with.

  8. MOAS*

    Question for/about remote workers and managers of remote workers:

    If/when you visit the home office, how do you wish it would go?

    One of my remote workers is coming to my city. They will be on vacation 3 days and working here in the office 2 days a week. We have not requested that they come, they initiated it and we said they’re more than welcome to come visit. 

    TBH we’re all pretty excited as this will be the first remote worker in our program to actually come to the office. We started our remote program a year ago and it’s taken off a lot in the short amount of time. Upper mgmt is very much “engage engage engage” so constant communication and check ins are key for successful business relationships.

    We set up a space for her, reserved a room, cleared her with building security so that when she enters, it’s a smooth process. We plan to take her out to lunch, and introduce her to the people here.

    Seatingwise, I reserved one small conference room for her in case she wants to work in private, but I’ll also be setting up the empty desk next to ours so that she can sit with us too if she prefers.

    If it matters, this isn’t something that we would expect anyone to do (come visit and work in teh office)….she raised it initially. My grandboss might not be here, but my boss will be, as will I (she reports directly to me).

    1. Ree*

      We try to set up a few meeting times for the remote person to meet with a few people – whether that’s people they regularly work with but haven’t met, or leadership that they miss out on chatting with in the kitchen at 7:30a.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Yes, +1 to this.

        If I’m on site, I want to achieve as many face to face encounters as possible. I get that she’s initiated this, rather than being invited for a specific thing, but I think it’s up to you as her supervisor to look ahead and think “what group calls are likely to fall in the next month or so that I could instead hold as a physical meeting?”

        Definitely walk her around so she can physically meet everyone she has dealings with, including eg Finance or Payroll or HR but definitely definitely anyone in her reporting line.

        Yes, take her out for lunch, but also recommend good places for dinner, or local sights she mustn’t miss before she leaves. Particularly if those are the donut shop all the on-site people get birthday treats from (which might come up in conversation) or the best karaoke bar.

        The Worst Thing about this kind of visit is when everyone says “soooooo we’re all going to go do something else now, there’s a desk, no idea what the Wi-Fi key is, see you whenever, let yourself out”. Don’t do that. If you can’t be with her the whole time, at least check in regularly. I think the nearby desk would make that easier than the meeting room.

        1. MOAS*

          That’s really detailed, thanks so much! So it seems like I’m on the right track; we’re an office of about 100 so I don’t plan to introduce her to e very single one, just the people she’s interacted with and my bosses etc. We have a regular 1-on-1 scheduled weekly, and this one will be face to face. She’s been to this city before, but we can definitely give her pointers.

    2. Diahann Carroll*

      Full-time remote worker here. My company pretty much does exactly what you’re planning to do with your remote worker when I visit the company headquarters’ campus, well, minus booking me a conference room. I just sit at one of the empty cubicles around my coworkers. Otherwise, I get taken to lunch and/or dinner a couple times a week, and I attend meetings like normal, just in person.

    3. Erin (who works from home)*

      One thing that happens to me when I go into my home office is that I tend to get sort of socially overwhelmed. I’m not sure what the culture of your office is, but for me, since I only see them once a month/every six weeks, my days in the home office can be a little frustrating because *everyone* wants to stop by and see me and ask how things are going and did I see blah-blah movie and how’s my husband, and so on. It’s almost as if because we don’t have day-to-day “water cooler”-type conversations, it all comes out when I visit.

      I worry this comes across a little self-centered (like, wow, I’m just soooo important that everyone has to come talk to me!) but in my case I end up feeling mobbed and my productivity suffers for it. I always feel like a jerk when I have to be like, “Hi, good to see you — yup, closing my door now!” so it’s something to be aware of if you think folks might want to chat with her. :)

      1. Yorick*

        Maybe they can plan big lunches or some other type of social event so people can get that out of their system while she’s not trying to work

        1. EH*

          Yeah, when I was working very remotely and would visit the office, I liked going to lunch with everybody and getting some social facetime.

          Having a small conference room available for quiet is REALLY great – I know I have a harder time tuning out office noise when I work remotely. Trying to focus in an open office after working from home with nobody here but my partner and cats (both of whom are pretty quiet) was a nightmare.

    4. Mama Bear*

      We had to bring in a guy one week a year for an audit. Since it was a company requirement, the company covered his hotel and car. We pretty much did the same as you – set up a workspace, a badge, took him out to lunch once, included him in all relevant scrums and meetings, etc. Otherwise he was treated like anybody else on the team, and I think it was good for morale that everyone got to meet. People are different face to face.

    5. I don’t post often*

      I work remotely and see my managers once a year or so at different offices. I almost never see my immediate team members face to face. I like sitting in an area where I can see and meet other people. I like going to lunch with someone I communicate with frequently but whom I probably don’t know personally that well. During my last trip my manager and I ate lunch with our accounting department contacts-these are two people I’ve spoken with and emailed with extensively but aren’t on our team. The lunch was great, we mostly chatted about work. I have a better understanding of how to interact with them over the phone. One caveat, if the employee has any deadlines to meet, make sure he or she has time for that… someone mentioned the chatty-ness of other employees above and I think that is true. If I am on a week long trip and I have a deadline looming I tend to hide in a conference for a bit to get that done.

    6. MoopySwarpet*

      When we’ve had remote workers “visit,” we have an area where they can work and everyone clears their schedule as much as possible to allow for the inevitable meet and greet and chatting. We will also schedule any meetings we think might be beneficial . . . such as clients who are local to our office, but work closely with the remote worker. Depending on the person, they will sometimes arrange after hours activities with other employees or their direct management (such as lunches, dinners, cocktail hours, etc.).

    7. Gaia*

      I am a full time remote worker in my current role and in previous roles I have been the sole member of my department in one office with my entire team across the country in another office. In both cases, when I find myself working in the “main” office I prefer a few things:

      1. A space to sit and work with the appropriate setup. This may seem obvious but you’d be surprised how often it doesn’t happen.

      2. Opportunities to meet with people in person, even just for short 15 minute “chats” – including people outside of my department

      3. An offer (not a requirement) to have a team lunch or dinner or drinks is always appreciated.

      I love working remotely and I wouldn’t give it up for the world, but I also appreciate the value of face time when other team members work together. I don’t need an extravaganza, but it is always nice to know the “office” team is excited to see me there.

      My current team is completely remote – none of us work from the organization headquarters. This winter we’re meeting up in HQ for a week and everyone is pretty excited about it. We talk all the time and have regular video/skype calls but there is just something about being in person.

    8. pumpkin on da shelf*

      Can I just say, how thoughtful you were in setting this person up for a smooth process. My company has just started having remote workers but in our case these are folks that moved and were able to continue working remotely given our work from home setup and it all getting approved.

      We had one once who was in the area for the holidays and wanted to come work in the office. The manager at the time said we had no space and encouraged him to work from wherever he was staying in the area. What a shame and a missed opportunity (no, she’s not a good manager).

      Anyway, just wanted to say nice job and nice of you to come here and ask for anything else you may not have covered. Well done you!

  9. Anon for this*

    Last year, I had a terrible boss, Deangelo. He was a micromanager and very scattered, so he was constantly pulling everyone in many different directions, prioritizing whatever popped into his head at the moment. He had inappropriate personal relationships with selected subordinates and favored them with assignments, performance reviews, schedule flexibility, raises, and promotions. Worst of all, he was a notorious liar and we couldn’t trust a word out of his mouth. He would tell us to cut corners to get results, always with a great story about why it was ok in this situation, but throw people under the bus if they were caught.

    Deangelo was great at passing the buck, and senior management loved him, but his sleaziness eventually caught up with him. He resigned while under investigation for violating company policy, and all of the non-management employees in the department were overjoyed. Since he quit right as the investigation started, the company simply dropped the investigation.

    Then he got a job with a vendor that provides technical support for some equipment used in my department. I am responsible for this equipment. If we have problems with the equipment or need to schedule maintenance for it, I am the one who has to call the vendor. Another guy, Andy, is currently my main point of contact there, but if he’s busy or out of the office, he will often refer me to Deangelo. Sometimes I have to go to their facility. Sometimes I go to conventions where they have a booth. Just about every time I’m in contact with this vendor, I end up having to talk to Deangelo.

    Knowing what a liar Deangelo is, I’m sure he used his old job as a selling point to get his new job, telling them that he would be valuable because of his great relationship with a major client (and leaving out the part about resigning to avoid an investigation). The truth is, I dread having to contact this vendor because I know I’ll probably have to talk to Deangelo again. I have no desire to sabotage his new job, but I would really prefer not to deal with him anymore. He hasn’t tried to come to our facility yet, but I’m hearing rumors that he is going to become our main account rep. Given the circumstances of his departure, I’m uncomfortable with the thought of him having access to our equipment.

    Some of my coworkers are urging me to tell the vendor I don’t want Deangelo involved with our account, but I’m not sure if that’s reasonable/appropriate. He hasn’t done anything wrong (yet) in his capacity as vendor representative. Knowing Deangelo, if word were to get back to him that I made such a request, he would come up with a convincing story about why I have a grudge against him that would make me look bad. Has anybody been in this situation before? Is there a good way to ask the vendor to keep him away from our account, or should I suck it up and deal with him unless/until he does something wrong?

    1. SuperAnon*

      I think there’s been a letter to AAM on this topic… and I think Alison’s response was along the lines of asking the vendor to reassign you a different rep.

      “I don’t feel confident that he will have our company’s best interests at heart.” In fact, is it kind of a conflict of interest for him to be assigned to an account for a company under which he was being investigated? I’d raher have him pissed at me than have him sabotaging my systems.

      Can you enlist the help of your manager on backing you up for this?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. The vendor works for your company. Your company has the right to chose who they do business with, right down to the sales rep.

        If the vendor says you have to talk to the former employee then the solution there is to find a new vendor.
        I would start looking around anyway because it’s always good to be prepared.

        Remember the vendor SERVES your company. You don’t have to serve the vendor.
        I don’t see an ethical dilemma here at all. The vendor should have done due diligence before hiring this guy. Not your problem that they do not realize what they have on their hands.

    2. Lizabeth*

      This is a tough one since Deangelo seems to have the gift of “gab*”. Personally, I would have a conversation with Andy and let him know what was going on at your company and why you don’t want Deangelo as your main rep. If this doesn’t work for you and you get Deangelo, I’d document everything that he’s involved in and fire him as your account rep on the first lie. Yes, you can fire an account rep because you’re the client and I would like to think your business is worth more than Deangelo to this company.

      *BS, gaslighting besides lying. You get the idea.

      1. Kes*

        Yeah, I think if you have a good relationship with Andy, it might be best to get out ahead of this and have a conversation with him where you bring up that you’ve heard Deangelo might be assigned as the main rep and that actually he has a history with your company and resigned while under investigation for violating company policy and you’re not comfortable with having him as the rep on the account.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          I’d leave out the last part depending on what the OP’s HR policy is. If OP’s HR only confirms dates of employment and nothing else it potentially puts them in a sticky wicket especially since Deangelo resigned before he was potentially fired.

          1. Kimberlee, No Longer Esq.*

            Eh, I would leave it out not so much for that reason, but because OP can just say “he has a history with our company, as you might know, and I’m not comfortable with having him be the main rep on our account. Besides, we’ve *really* loved working with you, Andy!” OP doesn’t really need to elaborate on why they’re not comfortable, but if pressed could always say “I’m not authorized to talk about that” and let Deangelo’s company fill in the blanks themselves. (Then, if they ask Deangelo, he could say OP has a grudge, but it’s less convincing when it’s clear OP is trying *not* to smear him. D is more likely to say something like “huh, I have no idea what they might be talking about!” which his company can either investigate more or ignore as they like.)

      2. Anon for this*

        Yeah, that’s a big concern for me. I have kind of a sixth sense for sociopaths and I got that vibe from Deangelo as soon as I met him. He’s a great storyteller and he can spin anything to make himself look good. I have a feeling he has left other jobs under shady circumstances because the stories he has told about his career don’t quite add up, but he’s managed to convince a lot of people that he’s a good guy. If I tell Andy what happened with Deangelo here, it will be my word against his, and Deangelo is a much better storyteller than I am, so he’ll make it look like I’m a weirdo who just has a personal grudge against him (and probably insinuate that it’s because I’m a bad employee).

        1. cmcinnyc*

          My company fired a guy like this, and he ended up working for a company we do a lot of business with, so I feel your pain. My question is: does it matter if he makes you look bad? You’re the client. If you tell Andy that you don’t want Deangelo assigned as your account rep because he used to work for the company, full stop, what is the vendor going to do? Insist? If it’s a small vendor with few choices, you might be stuck, but Deangelo is probably spinning it internally as a win/win. It’s a win for him–he knows how to get around you all already. Which is why you don’t want him! So again, my question: does it matter from a business perspective if Deangelo has everyone believing he’s gold and you are a weirdo? FWIW, I wouldn’t tell the vendor a story *at all.* I’d just say, “Hey I heard this and it would be problematic for us because of his history here, please assign someone else. Thanks.” You don’t owe a vendor a big explanation. And most won’t ask for it.

          1. Semi Famous, Mostly Anonymous*

            This. You should be able to request your account rep, and the vendor most likely will not push back.
            You don’t have to explain your preference (and certainly don’t ever have to answer any of Deangelo’s questions if he asks them). I bet if you asked your HR, they would say that they have Deangelo in the system as “do not rehire” — so why would you let him work on your account?

          2. LJay*

            This this this.

            My vendors are there to serve me.

            If I’m unhappy with their rep, it doesn’t ultimately matter why (as long as it’s not discriminatory). They either give me another rep, or they lose my business.

            I’ve never had to ask to remove one, personally. But I wouldn’t hesitate if I did.

            And especially, having someone who previously worked with us be our main account rep could certainly be considered to be a conflict of interest because they’re intimately familiar with our operation in a way that a normal vendor would not be, and so could do things like inflate pricing right up to underneath our cap, or similar things. And that’s for someone who left on good to neutral terms. A person that left on bad terms would not be allowed on our property, nor allowed to interact with our account in any way, so could not be our main rep. This is a situation we do have with a couple vendors. The relationship with the former employee exists in that our main account rep mentions “Hey Erin says hi,” and nothing more than that.

    3. Yams*

      First off I would ask your main contact if there’s any truth to the rumors, do this out of the office if at all possible since it’s easier to discuss this in private. If it ends up happening just write an email to the guy’s boss, tell him you do not want to work with him and want a new agent assigned to your account. You do not really need to give much background, just word the request politely. If you want to lessen the blow you can spin this as a conflict of interest, but it shouldn’t be necessary. This isn’t really that big a deal and most companies will oblige with no big issues. Just stick to your guns as needed.
      Question, are you in the position to decide on what vendors you use? If so you can always use a subtle threat to take business elsewhere, I mean even if you have no authority so long as they don’t know you can allude to it vaguely. They should get the message.

      1. Anon for this*

        I do have some influence over what vendor to use, but in this case, it’s not likely that we’ll change vendors in the foreseeable future. This vendor is the manufacturer of the specialized equipment we use, and they’re the only vendor that will work on this equipment (Deangelo was involved in the decision to purchase their equipment in the first place years ago, so he brought our account to them in the first place). They know we’re not going to replace the equipment anytime soon, so I think they would see it as an idle threat.

        1. yams*

          Honestly, your best bet is, if you have a good relationship with Andy and his boss, to sit down with them and lay out the whole story. I was in a similar spot earlier this year. A key vendor was about to hire someone from the sales team I cannot stand (I literally went our for drinks to celebrate he quit), but since we have a strong relationship they sat down with me before making an offer and solicited feedback. I laid down the my feedback in neutral terms, explained what I had evidence for and they decided to go with a different candidate.
          I think the key point for you to remember is that you are the customer, and ultimately you are the one who decides who you want to work with. If you write a polite email requesting a change of salesperson, it’s very unlikely that they will say no.
          If Delangelo makes it seem as though you have a grudge against him… that’s actually likely to work on your favor. Vendors are not going to antagonize a key contact with a customer over something that silly specially if there’s someone you’ve worked with for quite a while available.

          1. Yorick*

            Yeah, even if Deangelo is able to make you seem silly, they’re still gonna assign someone else to your account.

          3. yams*

            I just realized I made myself look really petty, so, some background: the guy lost something like 1.2M in business in like six months, so he was both really bad at his job and an insufferable jerk. The fact I didn’t want to work with him was important, but secondary to the following: he lost a lot of business, he hadn’t closed anything good in over a year, he didn’t speak a necessary second language that a lot of our customers work in, and he didn’t really have good relationships to the main contacts in our area.

    4. Kathenus*

      In addition to the suggestions of others, and especially since Deangelo was your former boss with the power dynamic that goes along with it, I think you need to loop your own boss into this situation to get her ideas or approval for steps you’d like to take when dealing with the vendor and Deangelo. Good luck.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      “Due to his previous employment at our company and the intimate knowledge and access he had to our equipment, we would like to request a different rep on our account in order to avoid any conflict of interest. Ideally we would prefer Deangelo have no access to any of our client records if possible. In general, our policy is not to allow former employees who are ineligible for rehire back on the company premises.”

      Many companies will understand the not allowing of former employees back into the operating areas of the company so should be fairly straight forward. They are likely under the impression that his insider knowledge would make the vendor/client relationship easier, so you just need to point out that it wouldn’t. And write that policy ASAP if you don’t already have something like that.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        I like that script a lot, especially the subtle “ineligible for rehire” bit at the end. You just casually snuck that in there, lol. Well done.

        1. Anon for this*

          I’m actually not sure whether his file is marked ineligible for rehire. I got the impression that the whole thing was basically swept under the rug when he resigned.

          We do have a policy for who we allow in our facility (it’s a secure area, so anyone entering the property has to be approved in advance). My boss is the one who told me that Deangelo might become our main account rep, and I asked if he would be allowed in the facility given the circumstances of his departure, and my boss didn’t think it would be an issue since Deangelo was never sanctioned for what he did.

          Andy is coming in for a scheduled maintenance visit in a few weeks, so I will try to talk to him while he’s here.

          1. M*

            Skip the “ineligible for rehire” bit, then, but the rest of this script is excellent. If you still want to hint that he may not be approved for access to the secure area (which sounds like it might be an issue here), I’d say something like “I should also give you a heads-up that if you ever need to have Deangelo cover a site visit, we would need at least a few weeks’ notice of that – there may be some policy issues that would prevent us approving his access to the secure area, and I would need to run that up the chain for approval.”

      3. LJay*

        This is pretty much exactly what we would say in situations where this was a concern.

        And especially as they already have an existing rep, the vendor is unlikely to try to force a change after hearing that.

    7. Rose Tyler*

      We had a similar situation, only the person wasn’t bad or sleazy but they hadn’t done a great job when they were with us. We just told the company that we needed to be able to speak freely with our assigned rep about what hadn’t had or worked in the past, without there being any layer of awkwardness, and asked that she not be assigned as a primary or secondary rep. This might be a way to sidestep saying anything about an investigation or that would compromise Deangelo in his current job without cause.

    8. Hillary*

      At my employer this would be a potential conflict of interest – if someone left with a severance package this kind of employment has to be approved. I have one vendor rep who’s a former employee and can’t come to some events because it’s not a good look.

      I’d probably say something bland to Andy about how Deangelo shouldn’t get your account because of the perception of a conflict. Don’t mention anything about not eligible for rehire, or anything that could negatively impact his current employment. If Andy’s good at his job he’ll read between the lines.

  10. Danger Will Robinson?*

    Agh! I need someone’s opinion. Should I take a stressful job with a “tough” boss in order to “grow”?

    I am 27 and solidly in my second non-school, non-internship job. It’s awful. The job is fine itself but our culture is SO toxic. So toxic that the turnover is crazy, and half (6 people total) of my team has been trying to leave for months to years. So I’ve been job hunting too.

    I interviewed for a job I was excited about! And the advertised salary was higher than I make now. And the boss would be a famous person in some areas of my field. Like she’s written award winning books and worked with the Obamas famous.

    Well. The interview threw some red (but honest) flags. I appreciate the honesty, but I’m torn.

    Red flags:
    -Met the famous boss. She described herself as a micromanager and benevolent dictator, but it’s because she needs shit done.
    -boss said that this will be a stressful job. 50 hour weeks at most (I think it’s probably more than that after talking to the person leaving the position.) She said that she expects me to pick up the phone on the weekends and check emails on Sundays.
    -Boss also said that she can’t do with people who cry (apparently she’s made people cry, and she said this pretty nonchalant) and she needs someone confident enough to “fight her.” I was honest with her and said that’s not in my personality, but she said I could grow. Boss is from the chef industry so I know this isn’t…abnormal.
    -Everyone on the direct team looked so tired and stressed. And for the love, this job works directly with kids! Doing fun things! That I’ve done before! I know if you’re running an award winning program there’s high stakes, but usually people are happy when they get to interact with the kids.
    -The boss said “Look, I know this job will be stressful. But after you work with this team, you’ll be able to work any job in America. Especially with my name behind you.”

    I value work/life balance, but I also feel like this is one of those Devil Wears Prada opportunities. Work for a maybe abusive boss but you come out the other side a changed, stronger person with a great resume? Or am I totally wrong about this? I’m afraid this workplace will be toxic but in a different way. Can I secretly commit for two years and then dip out if I feel like I want to die? The good side is that outside this direct team, I hear the department workplace culture is awesome. But I don’t know how much that matters…

      1. Just Another Manic Millie*

        Yes, it does. Unless you’ve been looking for a job where you have to work at least 50 hours Monday through Friday for a micromanager, plus take business calls and email on Saturday and Sunday.

    3. Peaches*

      I think it’s really a personal call at this point. I, too greatly value work/life balance, and definitely would not be able to work for the boss you described. It just depends what is more important to you, I think. Would you rather work there and potentially work anywhere in America? Or, would that potential opportunity not be worth the potential stress? I think think you described it just right as a Devil Wears Prada situation.

      1. Danger Will Robinson?*

        That’s what I’m struggling with :( after talking to her, and friends in my field (who go, “omg?? You get to interview with THE blah blah famous person in our field? You have to take the job!”) it really made it sound like this is the *opportunity of a lifetime* to be doing this early in my career. But also… careers are long right? I feel like even if I decided to prioritize my mental health over a prestigious opportunity, I could one day work my way up to good opportunities with less…stress. I hope. This interview has me convinced that anything prestigious comes with extreme stress though. Maybe not a boss that makes people cry, I hope.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          To what extent do you need sleep, time off, decent treatment and fulfilling work?

          Because these opportunities only pay off if they don’t break you. If you find yourself a year into the job, crying every day on the way in to work, your health shot, on multiple medications to manage the stress, eating terribly and not exercising because you don’t have time, without the energy to apply for other jobs, the potential benefits are going to be less useful.

          Your potential boss has openly admitted that they are terrible to work for, and they don’t care. There will be nothing you can do to change the work situation, and any inability to cope will be blamed on your own weakness.

          Put it this way – can you stay mentally and physically healthy in an abusive relationship? Because that’s what you’re signing up for. There are people who can do this – who can work for someone who berates them, insults them, makes constant demands, expects them to do the impossible and blames them when the fail – and can detach themselves from the abuse and maintain a positive outlook, and then move on to something healthier without scars. But it’s a rare skill.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        Careers are long, and bad habits that you learn in one job throw long shadows. This does not sound like a good match for your preferences:
        1) You are concerned about the ‘crying’ statement
        2) You like work-life balance

        Bullying can leave you with permanent mental scars – I recommend you do not pursue this job.

    4. Charlotte*

      Since it appears you’ve read Devil Wears Pravda, do you think the outcome for that character was a good one?

      1. Danger Will Robinson?*

        Ok I’ll admit I haven’t read the book, but vaguely a long time ago I watched the Meryl Streep movie. I don’t remember the ending… Just the middle part where she works her butt off and gets some connections. But let me go read the wiki for the ending!

        1. Danger Will Robinson?*

          Ok, I went and read the wiki and yikes. She did end up restarting her life it sounds like after being driven off the deep end with Miranda. But whew.

          1. Mr. Shark*

            But to be fair, that was not in her industry. In this case, it’s directly in your industry and it sounds like it’s an excellent opportunity.

            The thing is, you’re young enough to work hard and make the most of the opportunity. And you’re young enough that if it doesn’t work out, and you end up moving on, it won’t hurt your career.

          2. Tib*

            I work for a dragon lady. Our Glassdoor reviews are laughably terrible, and they are all exclusively about her. I love her to bits and pieces. She is not at all easy to work for, and it will be many years before I tell her how fond I am of her (if I ever do), but she is a brilliant genius. Just….such a brilliant genius. I love my job a lot. I love our mission, I quite like the actual work, and my coworkers are absolutely lovely. I knew going in that I have an affinity for dragon ladies, so that was big for me in terms of being okay with it. My favorite professors in undergrad, teachers in high school, my beloved grandmother – all difficult women with exacting standards. I would say, think hard about what kind of personalities you mesh well with, and how good you are at letting things roll off your back. But just because she’s kind of a jerk, doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be great.

            1. Triumphant Fox*

              I kind of love this. There is something to be said for working with really remarkable, difficult people. I’ve worked with some really difficult characters who were nonetheless talented and they were always the source of my after work stories. I grew so much in trying to figure out how to have the best relationship with them to get the work done and I’m really grateful for those skills now. I work with lovely people now, but it can get a little boring.

              The difference was they were never my direct bosses, so I always had a buffer. Being able to work for a dragon lady takes a special perspective like Tib’s.

              1. Not a cat*

                I too have learned much from working for “difficult-but-genius-famous-in-our-industry” person.

    7. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I don’t know your industry or circumstances. If you do decide to do it, set a time limit. Year, 2 years, then you’re out. An end date will help you cope.

      1. Natalien*

        And make sure you’re setting yourself for that end date so you can actually make it happen – save the extra money, make the connections, etc so that when you’re ready to move you don’t find out you’ve trapped yourself.

        1. Danger Will Robinson?*

          This is what I was considering *if* I figure out if I can take the harsh environment. Part of me though thinks that Boss wouldn’t look kindly on me leaving after a year though (surprisingly, her team has pretty good tenure! 4 years to 13 years is the range of folks on her team.) so I would have to mentally commit to two years I think. Sigh.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is reasonable.

        But you have to know yourself. Are you able to pull that plug?

        If I had a dollar for every person I’ve known who was supposed to leave somewhere after X amount of time, I’d be driving a much nicer car.

        1. Kiwiii*

          I’m like this unfortunately, I told myself I’d work retail for 6 months and then start looking in earnest, but it took me 10 months to start looking and 13 to get out. And I’m glad I did get out eventually because I’ve nearly doubled my salary in the twoish years since, but I felt guilty and terrible the whole time.

    8. CatCat*

      OMG, hard pass. This is a recipe for burnout.

      A boss who’s a micromanaging “benevolent” dictator because “she needs shit done”? No, that’s a boss who does not know how to manage effectively and does not trust her employees.

      You have seen people look stressed and tired. You know boundaries between work time and your time will be non-existent. You know the boss is highly egotistical and verbally abusive. Like, damn, I guess +1 for honesty, but I cannot imagine trading one toxic job for another that I’d then be stuck at for a couple years.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Exactly. Moving from one toxic job to another is not the best idea unless they’re paying you $100 million a year to do so.

        1. Danger Will Robinson?*

          Yeahhhh. This is a good point. My field doesn’t make much anyways, so that’s 50% the temptation. The job pays super well. And great Health benefits too. In my mind I was thinking in an effort to convince myself, WELL I could just make a nest egg for a year or two with this job. And suffer. But save money.

          1. Gaia*

            SO here is another thing to consider – is this a golden handcuff situation?

            Does it pay so well that it ensures you won’t be able to leave? Is that why their team has decent retention? Because it pays well above market so people adjust to the new pay and can’t/won’t take a paycut to leave the horrible boss?

    9. Diahann Carroll*

      Nope – to all of this.

      – Anyone who describes herself as a micromanager and benevolent dictator is a lunatic with severe boundary issues – you will not ever do anything right in her eyes, which makes me very skeptical that you’d be able to work anywhere in America after working with her because I doubt she’d give you a glowing reference. Additionally, dealing with someone that negative all the time is soul-killing – I had that boss. She was fucking awful. If you’re trying to learn what not to do when you get on the management track, sure, she’s probably a good teacher for that; however, if you’re trying to grow professionally, go somewhere with a manager that lets you figure stuff out on your own and only steps in when you ask for help or collaboration.

      – Working more than 50 hours a week and on weekends is also a flat no. I did 60+ for nearly two years and developed all kinds of chronic illnesses I never had before due to lack of sleep, stress, and a poor diet (when you’re literally at work all day, you don’t have time to prepare good, nutritious meals, so you’re pretty much eating whatever junk/fast food is around).

      – Your potential coworkers are stressed and miserable. That’s never a good sign. Usually when people work for shitty managers, the thing that makes it worth it is the collegial atmosphere among the lower-level staff. If your coworkers are so stressed out and looking to bail, they will not be bringing the positive energy into that office you’d need to counteract the asshole boss.

      Don’t do this. Unless you’re a masochist or are ready to pay out the ass in therapy costs (because you’ll need it after working in this environment), keep looking for something better and sane.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        I think you’d get scarred for life working for this woman. Period. Do not do it. It probably won’t pay off like you hope either.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        OP, look at this response here and KNOW for a fact this is where you are going if you take this job.
        Chronic health issues means a person may take a long time IF EVER to get better. OP, there is not enough money in the world to make me forego my future health. No amount of money works for me.

        A competent boss doesn’t not describe themselves the way she does. They just don’t.

    11. MadeleinesAreMoreIsh*

      No, no, no, no, and no. How much growth will there be when this boss has destroyed your confidence by trying to make you cry and stand up to her, when you can’t get any break from work or her voice in your head? When the whole existing team looks demoralised and stressed?

      I’m probably biased but I escaped a combative boss and no work-life balance last year, and I’m not joking, it’s taken a whole year to really be back on an even keel again, having found – for once – a truly great manager. Who also gets shit done – without shouting and making people cry. I would never never go through a similar experience again if I could help it. I still hear my old boss saying “Stupid woman!” in my head at times. I still have nightmares about being back in that job. I’m still jumpy when new manager says my name. Etc etc.

      Plus, will you really be able to work any job in America with her name behind you? Is that not a bit of an over-sell? It sounds like an excuse to be exploitative to me, like “write this for free, you’ll get great exposure.”

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        How much growth will there be when this boss has destroyed your confidence by trying to make you cry and stand up to her

        Yeah, when she said that she makes people cry to try to get them to fight her or whatever, I was done. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t go to work to fight people. If I wanted to fight people, I would have gone into boxing. This woman is unhinged and shouldn’t be managing anyone.

        1. MadeleinesAreMoreIsh*

          Yes, and it’s not about being a “strong enough” person not to cry. I’m actually quite resilient, but daily demoralisation and abusiveness is going to be tough to deal with whatever your personality. Sometimes you don’t realise all the effects until you are out of the situation, either.

      2. Danger Will Robinson?*

        You (and the rest of the commenters) have a good point.

        I think my mind is blinded by how famous this person is! Like the work she has done in my field and the non profit world is truly amazing. And prior to meeting her, I would’ve never guessed this would be what it’s like working for her. Maybe she was in a terrible mood during my interview.

        I messaged a friend of a friend who has worked for her in the past to get a better sense of what it will be like working for her. But your story of it taking a year to even recover is really making me take pause… I don’t want to be a husk of a person after this. And I think in *some circles* having her name on my resume would be a shoe-in for Jobs. But I think she meant that the environment is stressful and fast paced that I’ll grow a lot and could work any job.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          Don’t do it! Short of her bitch slapping you during the interview, she can’t get more clear that I WILL BE HORRIBLE TO YOU, DEAL WITH IT. That’s not just a bad mood for one hour of interview.

        2. Mama Bear*

          Fame doesn’t make her or the opportunity a good one. She’s been really clear about how her office runs and how she treats people. If that gives you pause, then don’t do it. It’s kind of like the bride or groom who has reservations just before the wedding, gets married anyway because that’s what people expect, and then is miserable for years after. If you don’t think this will work FOR YOU, nevermind what your friends think about her high profile, then it is OK to turn it down. They are not going to be the ones stressed out. This is about you.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Yes. Your friends will not be the ones getting cursed out on a regular basis or getting work calls at 3am on a Saturday.

          2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

            +1. Life is short. It’s ok to value yourself and your mental health enough to avoid this lady. If you work for her, she’ll move into your brain and it will be hard to get rid of her even after you quit. Bosses like this become a primary, intimate relationship in your life, whether you want them to or not. Whatever the benefits are to your career, you may be paying for them in years of therapy.

        3. Marissa*

          I don’t want you to feel talked out of this opportunity, but definitely be prepared. If you want to be an olympic athlete, you have to go through hellish, constant training to get there and sacrifice a lot. If you want an amazing career with a high profile person, same idea. Taking it or not, each path has a sacrifice. You really have to ask yourself what you want, and what you’re willing to give up.

        4. Vivianne*

          I did this: I worked for 3 years for a person who was A NAME in my industry. She, too, was proud of how her bullying impacted those under her (in a launch party, she revealed different sets of numbers…how many hours were spent, how many pages we wrote….how many assistants she had during the course of development). Like, proud of it and very, very nonchalant when team members (including me) would break down in tears. Every one of us cried multiple times during the project (and my male boss often sat in the corner, rocking back and forth–not exaggerating). This person was a powerful thinker and very smart, but also very emotionally abusive to those under her. I’d estimate about 15 people left the organization during my 3 years due to her treatment of us (myself included).

          I’m now three organizations removed from that experience and STILL feeling the ramifications. For example, this week I had to participate in a review session of my work with the C-level team and I was terrified to walk into that meeting. For no reason–this set of managers was kind, gracious, and offered smart feedback and insight. Not sure I will ever get over the fear of being ripped to shreds and having my work completely denigrated. It has shaped my responses both externally and internally in a way that feels permanent.

        5. EinJungerLudendorff*

          This was not a bad mood. A bad mood does not cause people to create an imaginary management persona and brag about it in a job interview.

          She told you what she was like, and how she would treat you.
          Believe her.

          And if you take the job, be prepared to run before she damages you too badly.

    12. WKRP*

      You mentioned your current job is toxic, so you’re job hunting. This might be a learning opportunity, but it’s clearly presenting as another toxic environment. So, if you decide to take it, I think you need to do it with your eyes wide open. This may give you the opportunity to learn new things, but it will also likely be demoralizing or degrading or dysfunctional and you’ll likely end up in the same situation you’re in right now.

      1. Aphrodite*

        Exactly. And I have to wonder how much your current toxic job environment has altered you enough for you to consider another, possibly worse, toxic job environment just to be around some fame. Alison regularly notes that staying in a toxic environment will alter your thinking for a long time to come. I think you are thinking with that altered brain.

    14. CM*

      IF you are willing to forget about work/life balance and wholeheartedly devote yourself to this job for at least a year, to learn how to be somebody who fights instead of cries, and handle lots of stress, and all of that sounds a little exciting to you when combined with the opportunity to work with this person, then go for it. If not, don’t do it! I don’t know that it will be abusive, but it sounds like she is very upfront that you will be working all the time and will be at her beck and call while she’s yelling at you and giving you an impossible list of tasks. Some people can thrive in that environment.

    15. Kes*

      Sounds not great. I would consider a few things:
      – how difficult was it to get this opportunity? do you think you could get another better one in a reasonable timeframe if you keep looking? or if it’s awful and you end up needing to leave?
      – would this give you an in to get into a different, better department at the same place?
      – how long have you been at your current job? how bad will it look if you end up needing to leave this job in a much shorter timeframe than you anticipate (you mentioned two years, but if the job is that bad you may end up needing to leave after 6 months or a year)
      – what job do you actually want to get to? do you actually think this will help you get there?
      This definitely sounds like a toxic and awful job with an abusive boss. She openly admits that she makes people cry and that you’ll need to work at whatever hours she wants, and her employees look miserable. If you can get a different, better job, I would do that. If you think it’s worth taking because you’re already miserable and this will actually help you get where you want to be, I would go in aware that you’ll likely be miserable at this job and will need to be prepared to job search for something else, likely within a short timeframe

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Good points here. I think you need to a long view approach to this and weigh out the short term negatives of this position versus the potential long term gains. If you think you’ll be able to skip ahead a couple of ladder steps in your career with all the pay bumps and other perks then maybe it’s worth considering although I’d definitely make sure my stay at this company was brief. Another thing is the money part. Are we talking a pay increase of say $40k to $80k or is it something like $100k to $150k? Where I’m going with it is once you get above $75k studies show that your quality of life doesn’t necessarily increase all that much as your basic needs are met (granted those that live in high COL places, $75k isn’t quite high enough). Your lifestyle can change in a startlingly way going from $40k to $80k. Not so much going from $100k to $150k.

        I’m in a similar cross roads to you except I’m mulling over getting my MBA and I’m doing tons of cost/benefit analysis and asking myself all the usual questions…”Do I really want to go 6 figures into debt on this?” “Will this really help me take my career to the next level?”

        Good luck with whatever you decide.

    16. Fiona*

      This job WILL be a nightmare. There’s no “if” here. Honestly, this person has given you kind of a gift by saying up front: “I’m abusive.” Only take this job if your current job is causing you irreparable harm and you are concerned for your mental and physical health if you stay on any longer.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Yeah, I’d do this one only if this job somehow seems at least slightly less abusive than your current abusive job.

    17. LDP*

      Just to add another con to the list, I worked at a company that had a great work culture for every team except mine, and I have to say that made things so much worse. I would be getting bullied by coworkers (I was an underpaid intern even though I had a degree and work experience, so I didn’t feel like I had the agency to say anything or leave without something else lined up) and would be watching other teams go for group lunches and enjoying their time together and it just made me feel so alone. So, unless you’re interested in taking this job to get your foot in the door at this company to move onto a different team, I’d say skip this opportunity.

    18. Marissa*

      You say you value work/life balance. Are you willing to completely (and I mean completely) give that up for the time you’re working there? Because you will have to. And I mean, always on call, called back into work when needed, sleeping under your desk when needed, email sent at 5:00 am on a Sunday better be responded to by 6:00 am on Sunday kind of sacrifice. Your relationships will take a back seat, your hobbies will take a back seat. Getting a full nights sleep likely won’t happen most days of the week. It’s a sacrifice people make to further their careers, but it can also break you. Do you want to blink and you’re 30 and haven’t done anything for yourself personally but are in a stronger position professionally? If so, take it, if not, don’t.

    19. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As someone who’s notoriously great at dealing with difficult people, don’t do it. If it’s not in your core, if it’s something you have to “learn”, just don’t! It will hurt you mentally and that’s something that is truly difficult to overcome after you’re out of that boiling pot atmosphere.

      She should have left the kitchen behind, being a chef isn’t an excuse for being a forever jerk. My brother is only a jerk inside his kitchen and that’s only in the form of short and snappy conversations. Outside nobody knows. When the kitchen isn’t firing, nobody knows he’s got the ability to be a dick. You’re off the ship, stop acting like a salty grizzled captain.

      1. zora*

        This is a great point.

        I know people who have had those ‘trial by fire’ jobs and have built a career on it. But yeah, when I think about it based on what TMBL says, those people just had it in them. I am not one of those people. I have worked for difficult people and I survived, but it was super hard and took a huge toll on my life.

        I think you know if you are one of those people, and if you’re not, I wouldn’t risk it.

        1. Danger Will Robinson?*

          TMBL and you are on the nose… I’m not that type of person. I am a squishy, soft shell crab of a person. I told her one of my strengths were empathy and being a grounded person that does well with people. But it would take a lot of mental anguish and practice to be the person she wants me to be, and who could stand up to her. Granted, I do want those skills. I’ve been practicing them in a safe environment like therapy. But I just know that I’ll have a rough time becoming that person in less than a year. If that was part of my job, but if I had a supportive boss where I felt comfortable doing so, I think that would be way different.

          Sigh. I think I have an answer.

          1. zora*

            Yeah, sorry :(
            I know it kind of sucks because in certain industries it sounds kind of awesome to be those badass people with that resume after they’ve done those crazy jobs. And part of me wishes I had been able to do it and get what I wanted out of it.

            But there was just no way for me to change the way I am in that way, I also am very empathetic and the problem is I absorb a lot from those around me, so I end up internalizing everything and become an absolute mess. And I am learning to validate to myself that that is okay!! I have other strengths and I can be successful in other ways and they aren’t any less valuable than that other path.

            You’ll find something cool and make a different path for yourself! Don’t think any less of yourself for turning this down, it’s ok if it’s just not right for you.

          2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            The good thing is that you’re really thinking about this. This kind of ability is great and is a skill of its own. Lots of people just leap and don’t think, then at that moment have to figure out how to swim. You’re approaching this cautiously and that’s crucial.

            There are classes about dealing with difficult people/personalities. You can get better but you don’t need to emerge into that toxicity.

            First work on yourself and your confidence. These people eat those without confidence alive. This is why I’m such a scrappy person who will go toe to toe with anyone. I have that “Fight me” mentality but it is born out of necessity in the end, I come from a long line of curmudgeons. You can’t let that soft belly show ever, they’ll go right for your weak spots.

            Anyone who tells you that they make people cry is not just a difficult person, they’re a bad person as well. Difficult I deal with, bad I do not.

    20. Shirley Keeldar*

      It sounds awful to me. But if you feel it’s worth it…be darn sure you check out her claim that you can “work any job in America” after this. Ask to talk to some former employees. Find out if this job truly was a resume booster. (Honestly, I’m very skeptical. And what kind of boss needs to talk up a job by saying how good your NEXT job will be? That’s…not a very good selling point.)

    21. Not A Manager*

      How hard is it to get interviews/offers in your field, though? You say others have been searching for months to years. Your situation could be different for all sorts of reasons, of course, but if you think you will have similar difficulty, you might try comparing where you would be mentally and career-wise if you stayed in your current position for two years while searching, vs. where you would be if you took Hell Job for two years.

    22. Mama Bear*

      If you value work/life balance and she’s expecting 50 hrs minimum and to be on call at all other times, hard pass. I’ve left two jobs with awful managers because spending so much of your life with someone toxic really destroys you. The first one was so bad (also a call you whenever/made people cry manager) I sought therapy and the therapist said I needed to get out of there. There are ways to grow professionally that don’t involve destroying yourself in the process.

      1. Galahad*

        This is the heart of it. BUT! She said she wants a “fighter”. Before you accept / as you accept, you need to be clear about the work time balance.

        “This is a job that will require a lot of energy and focus during the week. I need some downtime in order to stay productive for you. I can work 9 hour days M-F, and can agree to checking messages on Saturday morning, resolving quick or urgent issues before 11am. I will also come in an hour earlier on Monday to prep for the week. Other than that, I will not be answering work email, texts or calls. Does that still work for you?”

        If you get a yes, follow up with email to document it and get a 2 sim card phone, one for work contacts and one for personal life, so you can turn off the work stuff when you are not working.

        Oh, and as for the crying stuff — people can learn this. Just excuse yourself (suddenly) as needed and walk out of the discussion and come back when you are calm. It actually trains you both on how to hold a more effective meeting without emotions… on her part because she learns to be more rational and calm if she wants to have efficient use of her time.

    23. Sharrbe*

      What is the average age of the staff? If they’re mostly young (in their 20’s), its for a reason – they’re easier to take advantage of because they haven’t been in the work world that long. If she routinely makes people cry, it sounds like she’s hiring very young and inexperienced people and pushing them to their limits. There is no reason for this. I wouldn’t touch this job.

      1. Vivianne*

        In my experience with an emotionally toxic leader, we had a wide range of ages and all of us cried at least once in front of others. At my organization, it was the mission that kept people at the organization, mutely accepting the toxicity that was frequently doled out. I was in my 30’s and was embarrassed to find myself crying in a team meeting. My male boss was in his 40’s and could sometimes be found in his office, panicking. We all tried to avoid making eye contact with each other during team meetings, to avoid accidentally pushing another over the edge emotionally or, even worse, having the vitriol turn toward us. I have not cried at work before or since working there.

    24. Dittany*

      Noooooo, don’t do it unless you’re desperate. There are other “good opportunities” that don’t involve working for someone who casually mentions having made MULTIPLE PEOPLE cry.

    25. Lana Kane*

      One thing to consider is that, presumably, you are able to get other jobs in your industry without having her name on your resume. Maybe it would be easier with it. But is it impossible?

    26. Overeducated*

      I wouldn’t do it. I can imagine someone else at a different point in their life wanting to do it, there are definitely people who are willing to work miserable hours and conditions for a few years to move up, so I wouldn’t say it’s a 100% absolute no for everyone. But I think the fact that you are questioning whether it’s worth it, and not just putting on your blinders and saying “it’s gonna be my big break!” enthusiastically, is a sign that it is probably NOT worth it for you either.

    28. Weegie*

      I would run in the opposite direction, quite honestly. It’s quite possible to be an inspirational boss and a decent person; what this boss is asking sounds horrendous, and the fact she’s upfront about it is outrageous.

    29. Parenthetically*

      I know this job will be stressful. But after you work with this team, you’ll be able to work any job in America. Especially with my name behind you.

      Ye gods alive, HARD PASS. This woman is lying through her teeth about AT LEAST two things from what I can tell, and has a terribly over-inflated sense of her own importance. Do you really, genuinely want to work for a grandiose tyrant who turns a job working with kids into a miserable burnout experience?

    30. cmcinnyc*

      There’s a job in my field that opens up every 6 months to 1 year. It’s the job from hell for the person from hell. People who do this job have two standard outcomes: 1) fall apart, leave the field, leave New York, become a beet farmer, or 2) treat the whole miserable thing as an extended job interview *for a different job.” But you need you eye on that next job in a very specific way before you walk in to THIS job on day one, because in no time you will be so overwhelmed and miserable and frantic that you won’t be able to network and job hunt effectively. I’m serious: you line up your next step and get ears to the ground before you even start Hell Job. If you have a really good next step in mind and think this can realistically get you there, do it. If not, how do you feel about beet farming?

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Lol, this is a really good idea. If OP can make this work by accepting the job, but continue job searching in the background, she could be out of that place in a year and someplace better. Still, I’d need to be paid to take this gig, famous boss or not.

      2. ampersand*

        I always wonder what these jobs are (or which industry) that are absolutely crushing people’s spirits. This sounds intolerable!

    32. Zennish*

      My thought is that bosses become “famous” for a variety of things, but it’s rarely for mentoring employees. She has already basically told you that you’d be emotionally abused and treated as an indentured servant. If I wanted to grow, I’d find a teacher, not a torturer.

    33. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      So, I worked for a Devil-Wears-Prada type of giant in my industry a few years ago. It wasn’t by choice exactly; I was new at a big company and I established a great reputation quickly, so when her former assistant cried “Uncle” they tapped me. I didn’t see a legitimate way to get out of it… cut to the most stressful 8 months of my life.

      Pros: I got a sizeable hourly wage bump which I was able to use for negotiating earnings at my next job. That’s it. Oh and she gave me random $100 bills for nothing holidays like thanksgiving.

      Cons: Everything else. I never knew when I was going to walk into a minefield at work, she kept everyone in the dark on a need-to-know basis, everything was an emergency because she was so busy she could only ever deal with urgent things, suddenly I was responsible for things around the clock even though it was an hourly job, she was incredibly harsh almost daily about stuff that, truly, was not my fault.

      Additionally, because I left after 8 months, the whole “Miranda will be a stellar reference for me” did not work out. She basically gave me the silent treatment the entire 2 weeks of my notice period.

      My friends and family still talk about that boss and what working for her did to me. I feel bad for having whined to them as much as I clearly did.

      1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

        AND (this is key): if you do a really great job for this type of person, *they will not want you to leave*. You think they’re going to mentor you and send you on your way after a couple years, think again. If you turn out to be the holy grail of assistants or whatever the job title is… best believe she will go to great lengths to avoid training a new person.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          THIS. That’s the other terrible part and explains why OP said her current team has longevity – she probably knows they’re good and is essentially holding them hostage by sabotaging job searches.

    34. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

      Another nope.

      You mentioned that the job involves fun activities with kids. If that’s a passion of yours, I bet you could find a volunteer gig working with children. You might also end up getting some references from the program staff that will have your job search. Good luck.

    35. Danger Will Robinson?*

      Whew, didn’t expect so many comments, but thank you all! I’ve got more to think about but…..I think I’m leaning towards turning this down. Eek. That slightly pains me. I feel like I SHOULD be that go-getter who takes this “amazing” opportunity and sacrifices their personal life to eventually work for big names and do great things.

      But I also love my hobbies and my partner and I get my energy from outside of work :/ I am totally willing to work hard and long hours for the right job and during crunch times, but the famous boss scares me. I just don’t think I’m a live to work person as much as I wish. (or is that a scam of capitalism?)

      To address a couple things if people were curious, I would be the youngest person on the team if I accepted. The tenure of folks on her team is quite long. (However, learned from my current job that even if someone works somewhere for 15 years, they might be miserable for 10 of those but feel stuck!)

      I hope I’m not killing my career by turning this opportunity down. I think in the future, If I found a similar job with about the same stress, but a more supportive boss and happier team, I would not be as hesitant. I’ll keep looking for opportunities!

      1. Deb Morgan*

        Listen, I hear you on wanting to be the kind of person who does the super-awesome career move and takes the hits from their prestigious boss like a champ because of the important work you’re doing. But… you’ll be miserable and won’t ever get this time in your life back. Just because you can do it (and I’m sure you’re more than capable), doesn’t mean you should. This won’t be the only opportunity you’ll ever get to do meaningful work.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        You can get good jobs based on your own merit, you do not need to coattail someone else’s good name. You can stand on your own two feet and be fine.

        The people who have stayed there a while are probably blackballed into staying there. People who are scared to leave, don’t leave. This person scares you for a reason, pay attention. This won’t get better, people are at their best behavior on an interview. What you see now is the best it will ever be.

      3. Sherm*

        You’re definitely not killing a career by turning down a job opportunity! I know it sucks to turn down a job when you just want out of your current place. I turned down a toxic job after job-searching for a geologic era, which kind of pained me to do — but I soon found something much better.

        And really, there’s no job out there that is “all that,” so amazingly special that it can’t be replicated anywhere else. She might believe it, but I don’t.

      4. Warm Weighty Wrists*

        At the risk of telling you what to think–don’t think that! You are not failing by choosing a work/life balance. The thing we forget about the whole “leaning in” thing is that sometimes leaning the hell away is the better choice. Make the best choice you can for your entire life, not just the time you spend selling your labor!
        People can do challenging work well and still be kind. People can grow and work on standing up for themselves while in supportive surroundings. Frankly, it sounds like you’re already learning and growing in that area, so who needs a heaping helping of “benevolent” (side eye) dictator along with it?

      5. Quandong*

        I truly think that your future self will be glad you turned down this job opportunity. And I very much doubt you will find it has a detrimental effect on your career in the long term.

        If you’re recovering from working in a toxic environment, you might not have recalibrated to what it feels like to work in a functional place where you aren’t at risk of developing PTSD. If you go directly into what is obviously an abusive environment, it seems like you might get more accustomed to dysfunction and abuse.

        If you want any extra reassurance that you’re doing the right thing for yourself, check out various writing on ‘sick systems’ by Issendai.

      6. ten-four*

        Heyo, I’m another one who worked for a NAME and on a project that was nationally famous. Then the crash hit and I was SOL. He’s never given me a reference, and that job did zero for me when I was hunting – I wound up in another field all together.

        His sociopath second-in-command also liked to talk about how by berating us constantly he was “breaking us down and building us back up” but SURPRISE no building ever occurred! They ultimately laid me off when I was on maternity leave. It took a year+ of therapy to put myself back together.

        But yeah – those flags were there early. They thought it was 100% fine to scream at employees and fire people for no reason, and that we all just needed to toughen up. The reality was that the big boss was a bright thinker in his field, and had zero idea how to manage people or grow a company. So he let his jerk bestie run roughshod over us all, and between them they drove the company into dissolution in three years.

        Sounds like this job is support staff for the Big Thinker so you won’t have the company shenanigans, but that ALSO means that there’s nowhere to hide. I actually liked that job most of the time because I could fly under the radar and do the work I was there to do. At the job you’re describing she IS the job. She is the whole job. I wouldn’t do it.

        Also: the whole “with MY NAME BEHIND YOU” thing means that she has to like you. What could she do to your career if she decided she didn’t?

      7. Collette*

        About that word “should.” That the is always about other peoples’s expectations and never about your own desires, wants or needs. If you find yourself believing you “should” do something, that’s a cue to take a long, hard look at whose expectations are currently running the show. Doing the things you think you “should” in circumstances like these only leads to heartache.

    36. Mobuy*

      There are a lot of noes here, and they may be right. However…

      I think this sounds like an awesome opportunity. You don’t mention a spouse or kids, so maybe working 50 hour weeks (at most) would be doable. This is not something I could do now, with three elementary-aged kids, so it’s something I kind of wish I could have done at a different point in my life. Work in a fast-paced, stressful environment with an extremely successful professional? That sounds kind of amazing!

      I think, with my personality, this might have been a place I would have thrived for a couple of years. If you decide it’s not for you, that’s totally fine! I just wanted to fight back against the echo chamber a little bit and give you another perspective.

      1. ampersand*

        I appreciate that in the long list of “run away! Don’t do it!” answers, there is one vote for taking the job. I personally would run far away but I know not everyone would!

      2. Kat in VA*

        I’m thinking yep, I’m a brawler (always have been, being a fighter is just in my nature). If I had a potential boss who actively told me that they wanted me to challenge them and FIGHT them…

        Wait, I’ve already got a boss like this. And it’s awesome – for me. Because he can figuratively charge up into my face and I don’t have to act meek and mild and subservient and eat it when I disagree strongly – I can charge right back at him. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose but the challenge is always there.

        And I do work 50-60 hour weeks (not because I’m told to but because I have THAT much work to do). He’ll get in a fit of a micromanaging and I have and will say via text LET ME DO MY JOB, via email BOSS LET ME DO MY JOB AND STAY OUT OF IT, and to his face, “Bossman, will you PLEASE let me do MY JOB.”

        The important part – to me, because I’m highly motivated by money – is if it would significantly increase your salary. I think my main Bossman is great and we have an unconventional but pretty awesome (if exhausting) relationship. That being said, I wouldn’t jump ship from our (somewhat) dysfunctional working relationship to a stated similar one unless there was at least a 25% increase in pay and similar phenomenal benefits.

        Some people like to fight. OP has stated they do not. If you’re not a fighter, you can learn to become one, but it won’t feel natural to you and ultimately, it will wear you out.

        Much as I’d love to say YEAH BRING IT ON for the OP, I think this one should be a pass.

    37. ArtK*

      THe “This will suck but it’s a great stepping stone” argument from an admittedly toxic boss should be ignored. Unless you have evidence that this experience will let you “… work any job in America,” take it as her being desperate to fill a position and trying to sell you.

    38. Frankie*

      Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun.

      This type of work environment burns out even the diehards who WANT to work 24/7. It’s because the target is always moving and no matter how hard you work or how many hours, it will NEVER be enough.

      The fact that she’s telling you all of this directly is a gift. Believe her and run away.

    39. Me*

      I worked for a toxic boss for 2 years that looks like a saint compared to what you’re talking about.

      It was awful. I’m in therapy and on medication in large part to the shizz I had to deal with.

      You only get one go round in life and your career won’t be etched on your tombstone.

      If you are impressive enough that they want you, I’m sure you are impressive enough for other opportunities that won’t eat at your soul.

    40. Quinalla*

      Well, at least it sounds like she’s being upfront about the situation. I personally would pass on this opportunity, but it might be something I would have gone for if it looked better than my current situation when I was younger without kids. Right now, I’m strictly 40-45 hours and no more except in extreme circumstances, 50 regularly for me would be burnout territory, no thanks! But I do think you need to weigh it against your crappy job now and yes, if you decide to go for it, have an exit strategy ready for when you get to that 2 year mark.

    42. MissDisplaced*

      HooBoy, I wouldn’t touch this with a ten foot pole! But I’m also no longer young and hungry.

      At least you’re looking at it with eyes wide open. Because it will be toxic and probably bad, and she’ll be a crackpot neurotic nightmare. HOWEVER, if this line of work is something you really, really want, and you have a thick skin, then go for it!

    43. Gaia*

      No, no, no, no.

      A manager who only knows how to get results by being a micromanager and a “benevolent” dictator (as if that is a real thing!) is a TERRIBLE manager who will inevitably get subpar results.

      Good managers get results by hiring the right people, ensuring they have the right resources, and empowering them to do the job by setting proper expectations and letting them succeed. This person is NOT a good manager and it will be a nightmare.

    44. Nesprin*

      Yes maybe, for exactly 2 years while in my 20s. That’s peak working-60-hrs-per-wk-to-do-something-better-next time, and you’ll learn a ton, either in your discipline, or about working with terrible people.
      Sock away as much money as possible, work your hash off and ensure that you keep exercise, human interaction, and eating routines if nothing else.

    45. Formerly Arlington*

      I don’t know, you just kind of what I would describe as “working in corporate marketing anywhere.” If it feels wrong to you, though, don’t take the job. I haven’t worked anywhere where I didn’t check in at least on my weekend emails and 50 hours is…well, it’s not 80 or 90. The crying part was weird because who mentions crying in an interview? But perhaps she just wants you understand she is direct. I may just be unlucky or attracted to unhealthy urgency, but I’m not reading this the way others here are!

      1. Chiron*

        Don’t do it. I’d hope that their idea of fighting at work is getting into debates, not a yes man type, being honest. but i doubt it, they probably mean they like to beat you to a pulp and just stand or sit there watching you in said pulp.

        As for famous? You met the famous person and talked/spoke to them for about an hour or more, right? So you got your brush with fame that you can talk to your friends about, and probably all the “mentoring” you’d ever get from them. I dont know how a dictator is running a kids school/nonprofit/whatever but if they cant manage well they resort to these tactics. You’d think they’d work on their management skills instead? or anger issues? I’m angry at life too but i dont take it out on everyone around me/employees.

        As for future job opps? um, people will probably doubt your thought process at working for someone like that, who knows maybe other people do know how she is but they didn’t tell you. Maybe those other employees can’t find another job after working for her and that’s why they’re still there, or she won’t let them go/trashes every job opportunity. I kind of wonder if this boss also doesn’t have the guts to just say no to you so they’re being just soooo honest about how awful they are so you’ll say no to them. Sounds like bad breakup guy to me. Don’t bother. Either find another job in that field or find another field. This boss is just not worth it at.all.ever.

  11. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    I’ve worked in a hospital as an AA for several years. I was promoted a few months ago to EA, after turning down my manager Leo’s offer to take over for him when he retires in a year. At my quarterly meeting with my new manager, AJ, he said he could tell I wasn’t happy as an EA and repeated the offer to take over for Leo. However, AJ would be taking over Leo’s managerial duties, so it would be a lateral move and would not result in a raise. AJ couldn’t offer a definitive timeline, as Leo hasn’t given a date for when he’ll retire, but AJ thinks 1.5 years.

    I’m disappointed, as Leo’s full role would have been a challenge, whereas the new role will be more stimulating than my current job but not challenging. It also limits my opportunity for growth in the department. I told AJ that I’d be more than happy to help him with other tasks in the meantime but he seems to be a micromanager who likes to be in control.

    I don’t know if I want to stay on as an EA for 1.5 years. I really like my department but can’t see myself progressing further than I am now, unless I go back to school for a post-graduate degree. Any advice on how to proceed?

    1. Kes*

      I mean, it doesn’t sound like you have a good handle on what you actually want to do – you turned down Leo’s job and took an EA role, but you don’t like the EA role and are now disappointed you can’t take on Leo’s full job. You want to move up, but as seen with the EA role just trying to get to a higher role possible won’t always make you happy. I would take a step back and think about what you actually do and do not like in your job, and then from there think about what kind of role you would actually like and how you can get there, either where you are or elsewhere.

    2. Bluesboy*

      I’m a little confused. You turned down the offer to take over from Leo, but you are disappointed that the offer AJ made you is only half of Leo’s job because you think the full job would have been a challenge?

      If I’ve understood correctly, you really like the department you are in, feel ready for a new challenge, but don’t see yourself finding that where you are now. Fair assessment?

      From your post, it seems to me that you might not have been clear enough with AJ. You say ‘I’d be more than happy to help him with other tasks…’ but that sounds to me like ‘I am a team player and happy to help’. Nothing wrong with that, but when I managed a staff I would have said “How nice! But don’t worry, everything is under control.”

      If though you had come to me and said “I want to grow and am looking for projects and other tasks that would give me the opportunity to do so” I would have been more likely to try and find you those opportunities – I WANT my staff to feel fulfilled. It’s a different approach to the conversation with your manager.

      It looks overall though like you need to start looking externally. You aren’t sure if you want to do this job for 1.5 years, and a job hunt takes a while. You have no guarantee of anything in a year and a half anyway as Leo hasn’t given a date. Even when Leo retires you would be looking (maybe) to get a job that you describe as ‘not challenging’.

      It’s tough to make a call like this when you really like where you work but long-term don’t see the job you want to do there. Whatever you choose, good luck!

      1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

        Sorry I didn’t make things clear. I originally turned down the offer when Leo made it because I had applied for the EA position. Since I’m feeling unfulfilled in the EA position, I would have taken the offer when AJ made it, because it would have been a challenge. You are correct when you sum up “you really like the department you are in, feel ready for a new challenge, but don’t see yourself finding that where you are now.”

        Thank you for the advice!

  12. Great Beyond*

    I want to leave my job that I’ve been at for a few months because the hours are too much. They mentioned overtime, but I didn’t expect it to be like this. In interviews with prospective employers or on job applications, can I say that I want a better work/life balance as my reason for leaving? Or does that sound too negative?

    1. rayray*

      I don’t think it’s negative at all, and there are actually a lot of companies these days that encourage work life balance for their employees. I’m almost certain Alison has given some example scripts of what to say in this exact situation too.

    3. new kid*

      I think it helps to be specific when using a generic phrase like that. So for example, “I’ve consistently been working 60-70 hour weeks at my current job, so I’m looking for a better work life balance.”

      Otherwise, you run the risk of the person sitting across the table having a different interpretation of that phrase than you do. But if you state it factually like that I wouldn’t worry about coming across as negative. A reasonable person/company will understand where you’re coming from.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. And this specific wording is great because if you do end up interviewing at places with those kinds of hours, they’ll tell you and either allow you to self-select out, or they just won’t extend an offer to you, both outcomes of which are good for you in the long run.

      2. Natalie*

        Especially when you’re leaving in a short time, being specific really helps to underscore that you didn’t make this decision lightly.

        1. Kes*

          Well, and it lets them judge for themselves that you aren’t being unreasonable, as well as making you sound more objective.

    5. Summertime*

      You can also say that the job was misrepresented while you were interviewing. “I was told during the interview stage of my current job that it would require some overtime during the busy season, but the reality is that I have consistently worked X+ hours/week with indication of a let-up. I am willing to hunker down during crunch time, but I’d like to find a job where work/life balance is more valued.”

      Good luck!

      1. Alli*

        This! I think that it is important to state that this isn’t what was represented to you during the interview. This way, they view it as just a job that ended up not being the best match, instead of a question of your judgment about being able to take on this much work.

    6. MousePrincess*

      I agree with those who say to be specific. They’ll need to know you’re not someone who balks at being asked to work an extra few hours here and there.

    7. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      The only thing I have to add to these comments is that while right now, you might feel desperate to find a new job, know that mentioning something like this will actually sort out which employers are interested in supporting your work/life balance and which ones are envisioning a position with more work hours, like your current job. And that is a GOOD THING, because you absolutely don’t want to end up in another position with too many hours!

    8. Andream*

      If it comes up in interviews just mention that the hours were not working for you at the other job. Then give specifics such as I thought I was going to be working from 40 hours with occasionally working X amount of overtime but it actually ended up working Z amount more often.

      I know you didn’t ask this but have you considered that this isn’t normal?
      I would check with others at your current job that have been there a few years and ask if this is normal. It may be that something has happened that has caused a lot more overtime for some reason. For example, a family member works tech support for an atomic clock company. After next week when the time changes the call volume doubles, sometimes triples. It’s a small company and last year there were a few people out, ( death in the family, health issues, other unexpected absence) and it really affected the call volume and overtime.

      If you really like your job, and it’s just your hours maybe this will change. Check with others or even your boss and find out about this. Especially since you are new you could frame it as ” When I was hired I thought that we would only be working x hours with z amount of overtime. But we are actually working Y hours. Can you tell me if this is typical?” You could also say “I am really getting burned out. How long is this projected to continue. I am finding that I am getting burned out.”

    9. ArtK*

      Some employers will take that as a negative. Which is actually a very good thing! If they think that work-life balance is a problem for them, you don’t want to work for them in the first place.

  13. Leslie Knope*

    I started a new job in April at a mid-sized nonprofit in a new city. I like my boss and really don’t mind most of the work I do (sometimes I even enjoy it!). Unfortunately, a big part of my job involves working with our board of directors, and they have turned out to be a very demanding and exhausting group of people! I have worked with boards and difficult people before, but this particular board is like nothing I have ever experienced. I feel like I have to constantly watch my back with them, they are incredibly critical and negative, and they keep piling on more work for me to do. They have 6 meetings a month (yes, 6!!!) and the prep work and follow up work involved is often very tedious and time consuming. Every time I get a phone call or e-mail from one of our board members, I instantly feel anxious and I always dread any communication with them, which sucks because I’m their main point of contact.

    My boss has tried to help, but it’s been six months and if anything, things have gotten worse instead of better. The board has also affected my boss in that she is incredibly burned out and is now only in the office when she absolutely has to be here. It’s hard for me to feel motivated when my boss is so absent and disengaged. 

    I have started looking for a new job, but I’m not sure how to explain my reason for jumping ship so early. Is it sufficient to say it isn’t a good fit? I’m a little worried because I was laid off from my previous job after only six months, so my recent job history is looking a little choppy. I don’t want to remove this job or my previous job from my resume because I think both places have given me valuable experience. My work history from before I was laid off is more consistent (3.5-4 years at two other companies).

    Thanks in advance!

    1. relatively recent hire*

      I think you can try to say it was a bad fit, but in my experience during interviews leaving a non-profit after 6 months people wanted a little more information. Were the 6 meetings/month in the job description when you took it? If not I’d definitely highlight that as something that’s an unexpected amount of work.

      I’m not saying you should tell your boss you’re looking but if she’s already burnt out and knows the situation and you have been honest with her, being able to say she’s willing to give you a reference would be a bonus while looking too (so it doesn’t look like you’re burning bridges). Also, consider joining a non-profit networking group in your new city or reach out to your contacts there if you have them- if you have someone at a place that’s willing to vouch for you then that can help combat what looks like job-hopping. Sometimes non-profits know which ones are having issues, too, so even if you don’t say anything they may know what’s up. Good luck!

      1. Leslie Knope*

        Thanks for your input! I did not find out about the 6 meetings per month until after I took the job. In hindsight I should have asked, but I foolishly assumed it wouldn’t be a problem. I think you’re right about explaining the workload is greater than I had anticipated (which is 100% the truth!).

        As much as I like my boss, I don’t feel comfortable telling her I am job searching. I have seen her take things very personally from the board and she gets pretty upset when she feels slighted. In 99% of cases this is warranted, but I really don’t know how she would react if she knew I was trying to get out. I’m also trying to leave the nonprofit world and jump into a different industry (tech or finance), which is also somewhat challenging!

        Thanks again for taking the time to comment!

        1. zora*

          I would say something more like “the workload is unbalanced between board support and program work (or whatever else you are supposed to be doing)” I am happy working with a board, but I am looking for a position where I can spend more of my time doing XYZ work, and not full-time board support.”

          6 meetings a month is legitimately insane. It makes no sense to have staff and board spending so much time just organizing meetings, meetings don’t bring in money or other resources, who is doing the actual work toward the mission?? This is a dysfunctional organization, and I think just saying ‘the workload is high’ is too vague.

          For additional thoughts, see the thread just above yours by Great Beyond. The comments about making sure you are being specific about what you mean by “work/life balance” I think apply to yours about workload as well.

        2. relatively recent hire*

          Well, if you’re looking to leave the nonprofit world that might actually make the explanation easier- you can just focus the conversation on the fact that you’ve appreciated learning xyz things from working in nonprofits but are looking for abc things in your future career which you think you’ll find more readily in tech/finance. If you focus on your excitement/interest in the new sector that will definitely help! And I agree with what zora said on how to describe the workload.

        3. Ama*

          6 board meetings a month is so far beyond the realm of normal in the nonprofit sector that I don’t think anyone would fault you for not thinking to ask. (Like if someone said they had an active board I would think at MOST monthly meetings — our board is pretty active and getting quarterly meetings out of them is difficult).

    2. April Ludgate*

      I was in this exact situation, left a job after 6 months due to bad fit. I was honest about it in interviews and made sure to ask questions to ensure the same situation wouldn’t happen again. A few of my interviewers shared with me that they had similar situations in their past. It happens!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      The job turned out to be some thing other than what was described to me on the interview.

  14. FaintlyMacabre*

    How do you know whether or not to tell your boss you’re applying for a job in another department? I’ve been at this job for about 8 months. I work in a different city than my department’s headquarters, but in the same city as the department i would be applying to, which removes the need to sneak around. I already know that my co-workers are pretty loose lipped- there is no one I feel comfortable going to for advice. On the other hand, people do switch jobs with some frequency, which makes me feel like it wouldn’t be a big deal? And on the other other hand, I tend towards privacy and feel like it’s nobodies beeswax but my own, but that may not be a great impulse to indulge…. Help?

    1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

      I once applied for a transfer after 8 months. My boss had to sign a form consenting to my request, so I had to tell her, but she was supportive. If your boss has been an advocate for you in the past, I would tell them. Don’t worry about nosy co-workers; they’re everywhere. ;)

    2. Bonita*

      Every company I’ve ever worked for has had a policy about internal job applications that says when in the process your current manager needs to be informed. I would start by finding out if your employer has a policy about this. Sometimes these policies also have a minimum amount of time that you have to be in your current position. If your employer doesn’t have a policy about this, I would tried to talk with a coworker who has changed jobs internally to find out about their experience. 

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup, same. Almost every company I’ve worked for required you speak to your manager about an internal transfer before you put in the request and submit your application materials.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Hit submit too soon. Most of these companies also said you had to be in your original position for at least a year and in good standing (so no PIPs or performance issues of any kind) before you could transfer unless your manager and the hiring manager for the new position mutually agreed that you should move into the new role.

          1. CupcakeCounter*

            All of my employers have the same requirements – 1 yr in position, no PIPs, managers must be informed at a certain point in the process. Managers at my previous company had the ability to block internal transfers IF they could make a business case why that person needs to stay in that position. It was rarely used because people would usually leave after being denied the opportunity to move – I did but my move was blocked by the VP not my actual boss.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              Yeah, all of the companies I worked for gave managers the right to block transfers too. When I worked at EvilLaw Firm, I was blocked by manager almost three times. I took her into a meeting with the main HR rep and told them I’d be quitting once I found something that paid better, and about a month or so later, I was transferred to another department and given a new title. Then I quit seven months later anyway, lol.

      2. Lyudie*

        Same here. In some companies, a manager can block a transfer to another organization (this happened to my husband once). A good manager though will encourage you to do the right thing for your career, even if it means moving out of the their department.

    3. Mindy St Claire*

      If you don’t tell yours boss, someone on the hiring committee will! And then it will look like you were hiding something. Also, have you checked your employee handbook? At my office, it is company policy that you have to disclose internal job applications to your boss.

    4. RabbitRabbit*

      I’ve had two experiences with it in the same organization. For one, I had a manager who was furious over her department’s high turnover rate and was pretty brutal to anyone who was leaving, so my new manager told my soon-to-be-old manager about it after I accepted the offer. For the second, my old manager noted the opening came up and knew it aligned with my strengths and interests, so she suggested that I might like applying.

  15. Deb Morgan*

    Volunteer coordinators: how often do you reach out to your volunteer base? I’m trying to find the right balance between “I never hear from you” and “Stop spamming me with emails”.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Highly dependent on the tasks or events the volunteers are needed for. For long-term, ongoing work performed by a pool of volunteers (example: coverage for a social services intake phone line), I’ve liked to check in weekly with a very, very brief e-mail. I would thank them for their work and give them one or two super quick updates about their work and/or the organization’s activities and upcoming events.

      For an event, once a week or more in the month leading up to the event, daily or twice daily the week of the event, and morning plus evening on the day(s) of the event. Then an over-the-top enthusiastic thank-you afterward (with a note saying that the e-mails will quit now unless they want to opt-in to some other regular e-mail list from the organization).

      I gotta say, when I’ve been a volunteer for events, I feel a little under-appreciated if I don’t get a thank-you afterward. For longer-term commitments, I like to feel checked in on; weekly may be too much for some people, but if you go more than monthly I think you risk a higher attrition rate.

    3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I think it really depends on how you’re utilizing your volunteers! When I did social media management at a nonprofit, the goal was to make 2-3 posts a week aside from emergency ones (like weather closures.) When we had volunteers that were doing an event, we’d do a few big solicitations and then keep reminding and updating people periodically before the event, making sure everyone had their schedule and had confirmed their volunteer hours.

      When I used volunteers as staff, they got emailed 4-5 times a week like the rest of my staff. Which I thought was a lot, and a lot of them also thought it was a lot, but I had no other way to contact them with updates, since I had a 40 hour a week position and we were open 110 hours a week.

    4. Mo*

      Like everyone else said, it probably depends. As part of my role, I recruit volunteers on behalf of other departments and their events/programming, so I send out a monthly newsletter with all of the upcoming opportunities. (We also include a fun giveaway in it.) It gets over 50% open rate, which is really good. I think a lot of volunteers just wait for the newsletter to see what they would be interested in volunteering for that month, so for us, it works really well.

    5. ArtK*

      When you get a few of both responses, you’re in the sweet spot. The amount of contact desired varies by individual and you’ll never please everyone. So don’t try.

      1. Earthwalker*

        The coordinators I volunteer with have been trying to send out seasonal request calendars with links, showing all the events going on in October through December with links to click to sign up for each one. Then they send reminders a day ahead of the event for those who forgot they signed on two months ago. It doesn’t work perfectly. Sometimes they need to cancel at the last minute because of weather and sometimes they need to call an emergency extra day. Occasionally they’ll add an extra plea for more people to work Saturday because signups ahead of time were thin. But it seems to work pretty well for those who never want to miss an opportunity to go and the once-a-year folks. In general our coordinators get the volunteers they need and no-shows are rather rare.

    6. nat*

      I am not a volunteer coordinator but I’m a regular volunteer for an organization. I like getting a monthly update specifically geared toward volunteers, perhaps in a “newsletter” like format…helps me feel like I am still involved even if I haven’t been on site very recently. I would also be fine with weekly, it’s just helpful for it to have specific, consistent “newsletter” like headline.

  16. moql*

    Is it reasonable to ask my employer to call my emergency contact if I’m more than an hour late?

    My husband travels a lot for work. I slipped in the shower recently and realized that it would have been 3 days until someone found me. I am always on time for work and if I’m sick or there is traffic (2-3x a year) I let my manager and our receptionist know so they can field my calls. There is no situation where I could end up more than an hour late with no contact and something hasn’t gone very wrong. I would really appreciate someone calling my husband if this is the case, but I realize that this is asking for a lot of personal involvement for my employer.

    1. CTT*

      I live alone so I think about this A LOT. I think formally asking your employer to do it is a bit much, but if you’re always on time and good about calling in when you’re out, then I think they would notice if you unexpectedly didn’t call in and act appropriately if they couldn’t get in touch with you.

      1. CheeryO*

        I agree with this. Also, if you have a particularly close buddy at work, you could ask them. I wouldn’t hesitate to do that for a friend.

        1. KR*

          This! I wouldn’t ask your HR/manager to do it as they might have a specific emergency contact procedure but whoever you are closest to at work would probably be willing to.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I wouldn’t put this on your employer. If you’re really, truly worried, consider getting one of those buttons you can push if you need help. Life Alert is the name I know, but I’m sure that’s not the only one.

        1. valentine*

          Who’s the traveling husband going to call and do they have a key? A single crying wolf of “Overslept because I got up before the alarm, shut it off to shut it up because I needed the phone on, and forgot to turn it on again” a mix-up about PTO, or a false-alarm call to paramedics, and the employer will be slow to make the call or end the agreement.

        2. I'm A Little Teapot*

          You do, after you regain consciousness. And if your injuries are so severe that you don’t regain consciousness, your chances even if someone does get help probably aren’t amazing.

        3. Clarissa*

          Some of those devices can sense if you fell down and they call 911. So that would take care of being unconscious.

    3. rayray*

      Do you have any neighbors/friends /family members you can ask to check in on you while your husband is away? I agree with CTT that your employer would probably notice if you weren’t there and try calling anyway. I would suggest setting up with a family member to call or send a text in the morning, and if you haven’t responded within an hour, then they call your husband.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      I don’t know that I expect HR to reach out to my emergency contact, but I know my team members worry if something abnormal occurs. Like I recently went through some nasty weather and a coworker messaged me obscenely early wondering if I made it through ok. Other times when I’ve taken a sick day, I’ve gotten similar messages. Obviously ymmv, but it sort of depends a bit on how your department/team works I guess.

      1. Sharrbe*

        Agree. you can ask Alexa. As far as I know, they can’t call 911 for you, but they can call someone in your contacts.

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          This was going to be my suggestion – we have 3 now including one in our bedroom just in case.
          Won’t work if I’m unconscious or anything but one of them is usually within yelling distance just in case.

    6. Tortally HareBrained*

      Is there someone that sits near you at work but maybe isn’t your manager you could have this conversation with? I think having a trusted co-worker go to a boss and say “moql is always on time and hasn’t checked in today, do you think we could call someone?”

    7. LurkerVA*

      I’ve told a close coworker that if I ever don’t show up for work without calling/emailing, something’s wrong and please check on me. She knows I will do the same for her.

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        Same; because everyone saying “Your company will notice.” Yeah… so one day one of our co-workers didn’t show up all day. No one tried to reach out or anything. Ultimately the co-worker had a major emergency and had been taken care of; but it freaked me out that the office hadn’t even tried to call them to find out why they were a no-show. I told a co-worker that if I didn’t show up or let them now, to please call the police to do a welfare check.

        (And yes, yes, yes, I know some very vocal people get all in a tizzy as soon as the words police/welfare check is said because sometimes it goes VERY wrong, but the truth is the majority of welfare checks are fine and not that its anyone’s business *why* but I have my reasons as to why I’d rather have the police called).

        1. Triumphant Fox*

          I think if it’s your choice it’s fine – you’ve asked for the welfare check. This is why it would make sense to tell them specifically, because depending on where you live and a host of other factors, it could indeed go very wrong. I wouldn’t have a problem calling in a welfare check if someone had specifically asked me for one if they don’t show up to work.

    8. Susan K*

      One of my coworkers announced, shortly after he started the job, that if he ever doesn’t show up to work (without calling), to call his wife because he’s probably been in an accident on the way to work. I thought it was a little weird at the time, but I remember he made that request. He’s actually divorced from her now, so I’m not sure if he’d still want us calling her.

      When anybody is late to work, though, people usually start asking if the person called in sick or if anyone has heard from the person. There have been a few times when people just overslept, and since no one had heard from them, someone called and woke them up. I assume someone would have called their emergency contact (or the police) if they couldn’t reach the person. So, I wouldn’t worry that nobody would check on you if you didn’t show up for work.

    9. NotAPirate*

      There’s a bunch of phone apps designed for check-ins. If you don’t hit the button saying you made it home it texts the person you set up saying you’re late or whatever message you program in. My coworker uses one with his wife, he hits a button when he starts walking home, 30 min walk, at the 45 min mark it notifies his wife if he doesn’t turn it off. There’s also some designed for seniors with like a daily check in.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        ooh, that’s good to know! I live by myself and have been dealing with a broken foot the last few months. I’ve been making sure the phone is in reach no matter where I am, but an app like that would take some of the concern of falling off my mind.

      2. moql*

        Oh, that seems perfect, thank you! I know my coworkers would notice and worry, but I also think they’d be too polite to reach out immediately. An app for my husband is a great idea!

    10. DJ*

      I live alone and I’ve thought about this too. I agree with CTT that asking the employer to do so formally is too much (plus, realistically they either will or won’t notice, and if they do notice and are worried, they’ll react accordingly). Instead, is there someone at work that you’re friendly with that you could ask this of informally? Like a coworker you’re somewhat close to? Otherwise, a friend outside of work who you could check in with while your husband is traveling might help put your mind at ease.

      Also, what helps put my mind at ease while living alone is that I try to make sure I keep my phone within reach when I’m at home (I even keep it next to the tub while I’m showering), just in case something happens. I’m only 31 so it’s not something I really thought of until I majorly sprained my ankle when I tripped off my back patio and literally couldn’t get up for a good 5 minutes.

    11. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You could chat with your supervisor about the policy for no call/no show. Find out when they would normally reach out to find an employee who hadn’t shown up, and what they do if they don’t reach the employee.
      Then, if the standard procedure is something not quite as reassuring as you hope, you could mention that you have this fear that you could be in a situation where no one would know you were in trouble, and that you would be much more comfortable if you and/or your spouse were called earlier than later, if you’re unaccountably absent. And if your supervisor doesn’t want to take that on, try a coworker who would normally see you first thing.

      At our office we have a process of calling for NC/NS employees pretty quickly, and to reach out to a regularly updated emergency contact list if the employee doesn’t respond. (We are very sensitive to this, as one of my co-workers passed away at home while his family was out of town.)

    12. Words & birds*

      I didn’t see that anyone’s mentioned this yet, but Apple Watches have a “hard fall” alert that calls 911 and I believe your emergency contact as well when it detects a wearer has fallen. I don’t have personal experience with this, but a friend who fell while wearing an Apple Watch reported that the feature works as described. There’s much more info available online; just google Apple Watch hard fall.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      My husband traveled also.

      I decided to be a little more careful about things when he was not at home. So for the shower example, I would use the built in rails getting in and out of the tub or I would take a bath instead of a shower. I made sure I had a mat to step out on that would not slide across the floor on me.

      I also changed a few things I did while cooking and I was more careful with letting the dog out. I went through most of my regular activities to see where I could exercise some caution.

      You may have a neighbor who would be happy to be your ICE person if you would do the same for her. Otherwise there’s family if you have any close by.

      I have usually chosen one trustworthy cohort and asked them to question it if I do not show up on time and there is no call from me.

      Odd things can work with neighbors such as turning on and off a specific light in the house. For me, I had a neighbor make sure that she saw my dog outside. If she went all day without seeing my dog she would call me.

    14. Rebecca*

      I lived alone for a long time and worried about this. I didn’t have a good enough relationship with my boss – it occurred to me that there would be times I didn’t want him looking for me! – but I had a deal with a close colleague who would be the first to notice if I didn’t get in. I left a key to my apartment in my classroom and told her I’d never show up without texting her unless something was wrong. It covered me if I was unconscious or if I had locked myself on my balcony on the 22nd floor (an ongoing fear for me).

      You should definitely have someone who knows to come looking for you, but I don’t know if it needs to be official.

    15. Sarah-tonin*

      there’s an….. it’s not an app. but you set up this thing where you text a number your trip duration (eg 45 minutes) and then when it reaches that time, it’ll ask you to check in, either by typing ok or with a password you set up. it’s called kitestring (kitestring.io) and you get a certain amount of trips for free, and then after that it’s like $3/month. I’ve only used the free version but I might try the paid one, cause $3/month is nothing if it’s a good app. I think with the paid version you can have it check in with you from time to time too!

      I don’t know that I’d put this on my employer. but I know my boss would text/call us if we didn’t show up (or let him know we’ll be late). I don’t know at what point he’d check in, but I’m thinking 15 minutes minimum? but I work at a small library and my lack of presence would be noticed. it’s different in giant offices, I’m sure.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        and then if you don’t check in, it’ll alert your emergency contacts! the free version gives you one, the paid is unlimited.

    16. AutumnalHaze*

      Yes I think this is not appropriate to request. To be honest, I’m not sure why it would be three days before you were found? It sounds like your partner is *accessible* to communications and so if you are concerned about safety, why don’t you set up a check in with them at pre determined intervals? It’s fine if you don’t communicate to your partner for three days at a time (I don’t!) but sounds like that’s a *choice* not something you can’t get around (as they are reachable in an emergency?) You don’t have to do anything other than send an “I’m alive” to them … I would be unhappy if my workplace called my emergency contact (my *mom*, and I’m 48) if I’m an hour late. She’d be terrified, I’d be stuck in traffic or getting an oil change or at an off site meeting.

      I get it, though partnered I live alone and I make some choices like climbing on chairs with wheels etc. I wouldn’t be found for three days either. when doing really dumb or
      dangerous things preplanned I tell someone. Same with having someone I don’t know at the house. Usually my partner, but my neighbor or friend works too. If they don’t get an “I’m alive!” by a certain time, they know to investigate.

    17. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My mother and her next door neighbor developed a habit so they could watch out for each other. Every night they’d pull down the shades on specific windows. Every morning they’d pull them up. If it was 10am and a shade was still down, the other would call and check. (Only incident I know of, the neighbor insisted on taking mom to her doctor after she’d been “too sick too long” .. it turned out mom had pneumonia. At her age, the neighbor probably saved her life.)

    18. kittymom*

      can you setup a checkin system between yourself and your husband?

      my boyfriend and i text pretty much all thru the day. if he didnt hear from me by noon then he would know something was not normal.

  17. Eric*

    I feel weird complaining about recruiters when so many people don’t have good jobs, but I’m getting really annoyed with some stuff I’m dealing with lately from them.

    I’m a data scientist in NYC, so I get tons of recruiter contacts. That’s fine. I’m genuinely very, very happy where I work now, so I usually respond with a “thanks but I have no intention of changing jobs any time in the foreseeable future,” or “I know this person who’s looking, can I connect you two?” and that’s that.

    But lately the “thanks, but I really have no interest in switching jobs” response is getting ignored. Yesterday I had an agency recruiter call me up over and over again after I emailed him back to tell him I’m not looking.

    And lately I’ve had a lot of internal recruiters for startups straight up ignore it when I send them back a “I have zero intention of changing jobs any time soon. Best of luck to you!” note. Usually they’ll respond to their original email with some “hey Eric, just bumping this to the top of your inbox. I know you’re very busy, but you absolutely do not want to miss out on Hooli, we’re looking at a multibillion dollar valuation within the next five years! Are you awesome enough to work for us?” but once I got that as a direct reply to my “thanks but I’m very happy here and not looking to change jobs for at least 3 years” email.

    I don’t get it. If I’ve made it completely clear that I am not willing to change jobs, why keep bothering me?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      It’s kind of like robocalls, if you answer your phone then they know you are alive. You need to completely ignore the initial contact. It seems polite to respond because you may want to work with the recruiter later, but they don’t care if you ignored them in the past.
      And they probably have quotas to meet…50 email contacts a day, 10 calls a day…that sort of thing. Sometimes they make contact just so they can show their boss that they are meeting their numbers.

      1. Eric*

        Lol yeah I completely stopped responding to them for a while, but that makes some of the more persistent agency recruiters call up “just to make sure you saw our email.” Seems there’s no winning move once your info’s out there.

      1. Eric*

        It’s been out there for a while. I have about a decade of professional experience and I’ve worked with plenty recruiters in the past. I’ve had my LinkedIn set to “not looking at all” or whatever the specific setting is called for a while and I reject connection requests from recruiters, but I still get plenty of calls from people at an agency I worked with back in 2014 or whenever.

        Also it’s sometimes just guessing my email address, I think. Because I have “elastname,” “e.lastname,” and “eric.lastname” all registered as Gmail addresses and sometimes I’ll get a message blasted to all of them.

      2. Goldfinch*

        I’d love to know this, too. I had a recruiter call my unlisted land line. My LinkedIn presence is locked down hard, with no contact info. I also regularly remove my info from the contact info scraper sites. Dude really had to excavate to find what he found.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I ignore them. Delete. Unless they call or email me at work, then I give them a polite-ish burn. I DO NOT want recruiters sending anything to my work email or phone numbers, and I make that very clear. The ones that insist on calling my cell phone I’ve tried telling them explicitly to remove my contact information from their database and never contact me again. If that hasn’t worked, I’ve blocked them. Over time, it’s limited itself to linkedin messages and some emails to my personal email address.

      Really, the good ones don’t need to work this way. You’ll know who they are when you meet them.

    5. CM*

      They do that because it sometimes works — if they’re persistent and giving the candidate new information, the candidate might say, “Hmm, I wasn’t thinking about the stock options, maybe it’s worth at least talking to Hooli.” But over and over again is not cool. You might just stop responding at all to these messages — I also tend to send back a “thanks but no thanks” email but if they’re continuing to contact you and take up your time, I think it’s warranted to just delete the email and move on.

    6. Pippa K*

      Even if you were looking, “Are you awesome enough to work for us?” seems like the kind of phrase that ought to put people and organizations right on the NEVER EVER list. Ick.

      Good luck with the unwanted contact – there’s no direct equivalent in my field, but I’ve come to detest marketers of academic software tools who simply will not stop contacting faculty directly. I’m not going to buy your shitty unnecessary thing, nor make my students buy or use it; please do go entirely away.

      1. Eric*

        100% agree with you on how annoying “are you awesome enough to work with us?” sounds. I am in my 30s and I avoid startup bro types (distinct from the concept of a startup as a new, small, unproven business — think WeWork as the type of thing I am saying I avoid) as much as I can.

    7. Natalie*

      Between spam calls and recruiters I find myself leaving my phone on “do not disturb” more often than not. Anyone that’s in my contacts gets let through and the rest can leave a voicemail if it’s important. If that’s an option for you it might alleviate the constant interruptions at least.

      1. Eric*

        I’m the emergency contact for two of my elderly relatives, so I pick up 99% of the time because god forbid, it could be (and has been) a hospital. My company is very understanding and supportive, more so than other employers have been in the past — one reason I am so loyal to them.

        Ever try to tell a recruiter from an agency that’s called you 3 times so far today “my phone is only on at work for emergencies, and I don’t work with recruiters who cold call, so please take me off any internal candidate lists you have, permanently.”? It’s not fun!

        1. Natalie*

          Ah, well that probably wouldn’t be a good idea then! If you know for certain you don’t care about ghosting them, I’d just block them after the initial contact. Set their emails to go straight to your archive or trash and then they’re easier to ignore.

          It is super annoying, especially when what they’re offering isn’t that great.

    8. noahwynn*

      Yes! I never thought I’d be irritated at being called about a potential job, but lately one particular recruiter has been driving me crazy about a job with a local hospital group. I understand my background is perfect for the role but I’m not interested. I just started by current job in January and am very happy here. I have no desire to leave. Calling and emailing me multiple times per week is getting annoying when I flat out said no. Their newest tactic is begging me to at least interview and consider it. Ugh!

    9. MonteCristo85*

      Both me and my old coworker (now direct report) have been approached multiple times for the job we already have (two of the same job, I was one, she is the other, we are replacing me). I mean, shouldn’t they check into that before hand? What if it was US they were planning to replace…what a way to find out.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I had that with a vendor who a co-worker was evaluating before she left. I repeatedly said the project was on hold, repeatedly got her off the phone only by agreeing she could call me in a month, and she didn’t get the hint until I sent a two-sentence email that we’re so shortstaffed the project isn’t even on my list. That finally got through.

  18. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    Has anyone here ever successfully gotten Google to take down an erroneous business listing? Our library needs help.

    A local workforce development agency used to have a satellite office in our library several years ago, but no longer do. Unfortunately, when people Google the name of the workforce development agency and misspell it in a common way, what comes up on Google is… a map pinpoint showing our library and our address. So people come to the library for job interviews and recruitment events, and have to be redirected two miles down the road to the workforce development agency.

    We’ve contacted Google through the “Send Feedback” link at the bottom of the page, and attached a screenshot of the wrong information and an explanation. We’ve done this four times, and gotten no response four times. The wrong info is still there.

    The “Remove Outdated Content” link on Google requires me to enter a URL. When I enter the URL of the erroneous search, it says “invalid URL.”

    I’ve tried the link to contact Google’s legal team. You have to answer many questions through drop-down menus to get to the actual question box, and for each permutation of answers I’ve tried, it says my concern is not one for the legal team and to try the other methods.

    I’ve called our contact at the workforce development agency as well as an IT person there to get *them* to intervene, and they say that someone has illegitimately “claimed” the (slightly misspelled) workforce development agency as having the library’s location with a personal Google account (!), and that there’s nothing more they can do on their end. They are content to let us deal with the customer service nightmares that come with redirecting stressed-out job seekers that often can’t afford to take an extra bus ride and usually don’t have the time to be redirected anyway.

    Our internal IT department at the library told me that any responses that I send through the feedback form in Google are going to the entity that claimed the business (in this case, likely a bogus person) and not actually to Google. If that’s true, then all this time, I’ve basically been screaming at a wall!

    I’d ideally like to *call* Google and speak in real time to an appropriate supervisor to straighten this out, and the fact that I can’t find a single way to reach Google by phone is making me feel like a complete failure as a librarian. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Elliott looks like a really helpful resource. For one thing, it’s the first time I’ve actually seen phone numbers for Google. Thank you!

        I suspect the CEO of Google has better things to be concerned with, but I can’t possibly get any less of a response than what I’ve gotten so far.

        1. Colette*

          Businesses often have executive customer service teams – so if you write to the CEO, he will send it to that team whose job it is to make the problem go away. (I used to be on that team for a software company that is not Google).

        2. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “I suspect the CEO of Google has better things to be concerned with”

          That’s not your concern.

          1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

            Oh, trust me, I don’t feel the *slightest* bit bad about sending the CEO of Google an email. :-)

    2. lcsa99*

      I have never tried this myself, but have you tried creating a second listing for the library as close to this erroneous one on the map as possible? Whenever I see two listings on google maps for the same address I will generally either call or do a street view to see if the one I want is still actually there.

      Good luck! I know how frustrating google listings can be. Our company sounds a lot like the type of retailer we would actually sell our product to – but we’re just an office. So for years we got people looking for a retailer. I managed to claim and change the listing so it says wholesaler in several places and it helped. It’s too bad that isn’t an option for you.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        To clarify, what I’m seeing isn’t a listing in the normal Google sense — it’s a red pinpoint on a map pointing directly to our library. If it *were* a listing, I’d be able to leave a one-star review and an explanation that the listing is bogus. Unfortunately, I’m not even able to do that. But thank you!

    3. Reba*

      I have gotten a correction to a business name to go through on Google maps, using the “Suggest an edit” feature on the phone app. It took months and there is absolutely no communication from them.

      You could try leaving a review stating it’s not the location — maybe at least a few people will see that?

      And have you asked the Workforce agency to tell people about the mixup in their appointment/interview instructions? It’s not that infrequent that I get an invitation with a note like “If you search in Google it will send you to the wrong place, please remember to search by our address.”

      What a mess!

      1. Reba*

        Oh, I see in your reply above that it’s not that… Ugh. I’m sorry for you and sorry for the job seekers!

        1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

          But asking the workforce development agency to alert their interview candidates to the Google mixup and to specifically go to *their* location is a good idea! They’re very bureaucratic and I get a lot of “talk to the hand” from them, but I’ll give it a shot. Thank you.

          1. Mama Bear*

            I would detail the number of times you have had to redirect people to their new location when asking them to update their materials. You might also put a sign on the door saying x company has relocated to….so that when people show up, they maybe see the sign first. Also, if they ask for Google to update, then it may help – two sides coming at the same issue.

    4. Southern Ladybug*

      I’ve heard google is extremely unresponsive – but sometimes people have more luck with these types of issues tweeting at them/using DM in twitter to the @GoogleMyBiz account.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Thank you. I’ve just begun (yes, in 2019) to use Twitter — exclusively for problem solving like this — so I’ll give this a shot, too.

        1. valentine*

          You could also ask IT to put it on the library’s Twitter blurb and homepage, and in the website FAQ. That way, you get people who look for more info before they go in.

          someone has illegitimately “claimed” the (slightly misspelled) workforce development agency as having the library’s location with a personal Google account (!)
          If a person is using the misspelling to direct people to you, that’s completely weird.

    5. Ama*

      This is a little different, but I once worked in a building that hosted public exhibitions and the address was put in google incorrectly due to a weird quirk of the addresses on our street. (Shortish explanation: our street was bordered by a park on the west side and a river on the far east side. For some reason the numbers on our block next to the park ran from 10-20 and then went in numerical order for five blocks, then 1-9 were on the easternmost block next to the river. We were number 15 and were for some reason showing up as on the easternmost block instead of the westernmost one.)

      It was extremely difficult to fix because it apparently was a bug in the code that google uses — we actually did get to one of the map engineering teams and multiple times they would fix it and the code would update and rewrite the error after about a week. In the meantime we had to deal with people coming to our exhibitions out of sorts because they looked on google maps and then had to walk an extra five blocks. (I also dealt with one memorable angry caller who did not believe me when I told him google was wrong and basically acted like I was lying to him and just didn’t want to tell him where we were.) We put up notes on the map section of our website about the issue but a lot of people went straight to google maps and never saw the message.

      But we did finally get it fixed, and actually once we got to the right team at google they were just as invested in trying to fix the problem as we were — if google maps aren’t accurate it reflects poorly on them.

      1. Ama*

        I should add that I don’t know exactly how we got to the right google contacts as our IT team was handling the issue. But it is possible!

      2. Becky*

        I have to tell people not to trust Google when they try to come to my apartment. The same address that USPS delivers to and says is a verified address gets mapped by google to completely the other side of town.

        I live in a town that has a standard grid layout so if I say “50 N 500 E” then most people familiar with the system can find it without a map.

    6. Tuckerman*

      Something similar happened when I worked in a University library. I believe our legal team had to reach out to Google.

    7. TooTiredToThink*

      As a customer I found that reporting the issue _as a customer _ is what seemed to resolve an issue similarly to this before. Especially if I do it as a report in Google Maps (having gone via directions there) and then using that link to say its wrong.

      Not google, but Apple – I once started reporting my home address is wrong at least once a week this way and it took about 6 months, but they finally fixed it. I assumed I had reported it often enough to get past the automated system.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Encouraging our misdirected patrons to contact Google themselves, in addition to all the attempts we’ve made, is an angle I never considered and I’m going to do that from now on.

    8. Rose Tyler*

      This sounds so frustrating! In the meantime, can you put a sign on the front door of the library that says “THIS IS NOT THE XYZ OFFICE. The XYZ Office is located at ______”?

      I had a somewhat similar situation happen with a Facebook group page and finally had to check boxes indicating that the other person was squatting or otherwise impersonating my company, not just that it was a duplicate listing. Somehow that got it channeled to the right department to switch ownership of the page over to us.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Thank you. The problem is that by the time they see the signs, they’re already at the library and the damage is already done.

        I’ve found recently that Facebook actually has better ways to report this stuff than Google does. Which is odd, because I’ve always seen Google as having a relatively good rep and Facebook as pure evil.

        1. Used to have relevant knowlege*

          I will preface this by saying that my experiences with a huge company website and google are 5 + years old but it may not be something google can fix. Google is just collecting the data. The culprit might be the old address and misspelling is living on a webpage somewhere or in the meta data for a page. This could be an old page that isn’t linked on the businesses website and they don’t even realize it is still an active page. Google is scanning the site and picking it up, or someone else has it somewhere. And issue like that, unfortunately, google can’t fix because they don’t own any of the content. They are just running it through their algorithm.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I had luck “moving” my company to its real location from an obvious error in a nearby residential area. I cited the website.
      But no luck helping a friend in a rural area get his house on the map. (A search for 123 Town Street in Town ALWAYS directs to 123 Town Street in NextTownOver.) So I may be trying some of what has been suggested here–thanks.

  19. HBIC*

    Curious to read the replies here…

    If you’re a manager, what do you call someone who reports to you but is also a team lead/supervisor to others?

    Officially their title is “supervisor” but saying “my supervisor” makes them sound as if I report to them and I use “my report” for everyone else who reports to me.

    When I was a supervisor my manager referred to me as his right hand man/partner in crime/etc.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m a team lead in that boat, and my manager refers to me and my co-leads as “the team leads” and the rest of the team as “the coders.”

    3. Erin (who works from home)*

      My manager calls me (and my peer with a different job title who manages the other team) his “lieutenants,” similar to your right hand man verbiage. (We are not at all military-affiliated, it’s just a joke.)

      I think officially he refers to us as his direct reports, and to the people we manage as Erin’s Team or OtherCoworker’s Team.

    6. Mama Bear*

      Subordinate manager is the term my Senior Manager spouse uses. Or Team Lead (for x project) if that’s applicable.

    7. I have a name. Just say it.*

      Is it required to note the hierarchy and attachment when you refer to the person? I’ve never been referred to as ‘my’ anything when associated with someone else. If someone were referring to me it would be ‘Ft Worth, our Program Coordinator’ and when I refer to staff or volunteers, I say “These our staff or our volunteers.” I don’t belong to anyone, singularly, I belong to a team/organization.

      Haha .. no. Stop the boss who uses Lieutenant. This might be the only time a Commander or superior noted that I was their ‘Lieutenant or Captain’ but that’s a totally different workplace and situation.

      “What do you call someone who reports to you but is also a team lead/supervisor to others?” By their first name.

      1. HBIC*

        That’s…it’s not that deep? Of course no one owns anyone…I just wanted to see how others say this. And sometimes it is helpful to note the heirarchy and attachment when referring to the person. With coworkers, it’s self explanatory if I say “Alexander” because everyone knows his role, but when I’m talking about work occasionally with outsiders, it comes up. NBD.

        1. Triumphant Fox*

          I think it sounds less odd if you add specificity to it. My director of operations, my writing team lead, my hr manager, my VP of products. It notes where they are in the hierarchy without implying that they are the next level above you, which my director, supervisor, lead does.

    9. Grandma Mazur*

      I’m a team lead and have both managers and senior managers as well as associates on my team. I refer to them by their titles (i.e., the senior managers in my team…).

  20. Free Meerkats*

    What do you listen to to get going on those mornings when you just can’t. I had one of those this morning, snoozed the alarm twice, then managed to drag into the office.

    Right now, I’m listening to the 1973 London cast version of Rocky Horror Picture Show. Time Warping in my chair.

    3. Cookie Monster*

      High energy musicals! All the dance numbers from Thoroughly Modern Millie do the trick, as well as the entirety of the very underrated Legally Blonde the Musical. I also just have a couple of playlists full of songs dedicated to this exact purpose – lots of bubblegum pop there.

    4. Mindy St Claire*

      Lizzo in the car this morning totally changed my mood from grumpy to *sunglasses emoji* Let’s Do This.

    6. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Flood, by They Might Be Giants. Straight through, from beginning to end, just like I did when I originally owned it on cassette. Good mornings I only need to listen once through. Bad mornings, I can have it on repeat all day.

    7. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Power metal. Right now my favorite ‘wake me up’/workout music band is Battle Beast.

    8. Diahann Carroll*

      Anything Queen, but especially “Don’t Stop Me Now,” which immediately puts me into a better mood no matter how many times I hear it. It’s just fun.

    10. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Disco or 80s music when I need to be energized, and to be very specific, Marvin Gaye’s What’s Goin’ On when it rains. For podcasts, Lore when I want something soothing, and True Crime Obsessed, well, anytime.

    11. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      My family has a joke where we tell our Alexa to turn on “My Humps” by the Black Eyed Peas. Works every time.

    12. Hepzibah Pflurge*

      RHCP, Jane’s Addiction, NIN, 80’s or 90’s playlists, or Journey (Feeling That Way/Anytime always make me smile regardless of my mood or situation). Sometimes the angrier the music, the more it makes me perk up and rawk my face off. But keeping it inside. :)

    13. Lalaith*

      Sometimes I listen to Bruce Hornsby when I’m in the shower to wake me up, especially the Spirit Trail album. Lots of upbeat fast piano.

    14. Aphrodite*

      It’s not mornings for me but afternoons, and when I am doing detailed work I find that opening my personal laptop (that I do bring to work with me) and listening to Mozart’s Symphony #40 (Jupiter) as performed by Herbert van Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic to be . . . enthusiastically uplifting.

    15. Syfygeek*

      I’ve been listening to various versions all day to get ready to go see a local group put it on tonight.

    18. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Fast paced folk/country or soft rock.
      I still stream WFUV morning shows now that I’m out of state, but I wake up so much earlier than my family that I can only do that in one room without waking them up. The shower is not one of those rooms alas.
      Lately I’ve had Neck&Neck playing in the car, the one Chet Atkins & Mark Knopfler did together. Yakkety Axe…have an esrworm.

  21. Alice*

    My mantra this past week has been: this too shall pass. I’ve pretty much given up on this workplace. Never mind a smoth transition, management has done their best to ensure I had no time to work on any kind of transition. I’ve been told not to “waste time” documenting processes and they don’t plan on filling my position. At least I believe they won’t… I’m so out of the loop, I can’t be sure what the plans are. I keep getting requests such as “explain X process in detail in the next 30 minutes” when the high-level overview takes well over 2 hours. Utter madness. I’m amazed I lasted as long as I did, and that I didn’t see much earlier how dysfunctional the place truly is.
    My last day is next Wednesday. I’m keeping my spirits up thinking of the glorious 4 days off I will enjoy before starting my new job on Monday. Also I saw on Linkedin that my future employer was a runner up at a prestigious industry award and aims to take home the win next year, so that’s exciting. No real question, just venting a bit… AAM has been my rock these past few weeks and I enjoy the Friday threads the best even if I don’t often comment.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Think about how you want to handle the inevitable questions once you’ve left because they have no clue how to do anything.

      1. Alice*

        First question: if it’s something I wrote down or if they’re looking for some specific file, I’ll tell them where to look; otherwise I’ll express regret that it’s too long to explain now and I was not able to document it due to time constraints.
        Second and further questions: not my circus not my monkey, I’ll block their number if I have to.

    2. Princess Scrivener*

      Congratulations on your [very short] countdown to freedom. Enjoy your days off, and put to rest the toxic memories. I went through this almost 5 years ago, and I still feel so grateful every morning as I’m driving to work. I’m happy for you!

    3. Lana Kane*

      Are you able to say, “Unfortunately, I won’t be able to explain in 30 minutes”? Because I bet that would feel really good.

      1. Alice*

        I told them and even showed them how complex it is. Unfortunately they’re in the grip of a very strong collective delusion that it’s really quite simple and they’ll pick it up in a jiffy once they put their minds to it. I’m sure that, after I leave and the system crashes and burns, I’ll be blamed for that too. But to be honest I don’t really care at this point, and /that/ feels good.

    4. Diahann Carroll*

      Congratulations on your last couple of days! Soon these people will no longer be your problem :) That’s the most freeing spot to be in.

  22. Chardonnay*

    I’m new to Learning&Development and looking for recommendations on books/courses/resources to learn more about training/e-learning/workshops. We’re mostly doing product training internally and to our business partners/customers and we use various platforms (e-learning, face2face, videos).
    What has helped you kickstart or further your career in this field?

    1. Sharkey*

      I came into L&D without a degree in the field about 20 years ago. Some of my favorite resources are Cathy Moore’s blog and website, Julie Dirksen’s book Design for How People Learn (she also has a Facebook group that has some good resources and discussion), and the Articulate community. Tom Kuhlmann (from Articulate) runs the Rapid E-Learning Blog, plus there are tons of downloads and inspiration from community members. These should be easy enough to Google—I’m leaving out the links to avoid comment moderation.

      These are obviously informal resources, but I know Cathy Moore offers a webinar course. You might also look into the Association for Talent Development (ATD) or Langevin Learning for more formal courses. And if you’ll be creating a lot of elearning, don’t forget about the graphic design element (check out the book called White Space is Not Your Enemy). So much to learn—but that’s what makes it fun!

    2. LQ*

      ATD is really good. I also really liked the Articulate forums. They are really surprisingly good. Or at least they were for me when I was starting out. Not just about the tools, but about learning, elearning, training, and all the rest around it.

    3. Lyudie*

      I’m in a graduate program right now, and a couple of textbooks I’ve had that were good are e-Learning and the Science of Instruction by Clark and Mayer and Designing Effective Instruction by Morrison et al (both are on Amazon). ATD has good workshops and online courses but they can be expensive (as is the membership to ATD).

    4. Jenny Bee*

      I would also say ATD – especially their TechKnowledge conference if you have the budget for it. I found it to be a big help when I was starting out. The presentations were good, but I learned so much from attendees that were also focused on training and supporting stakeholders rather than doing compliance training.

    5. Collette*

      If he learning is the thing that you’re focusing on, I highly recommend “The Accidental Instructional Designer” by Cammy Bean. It’s such a great introduction to the concept of e-learning and instructional design.

  23. Goldfinch*

    I know some people here have remote work experience…has anyone used The Mom Project to find remote work? If so, how would you review it?

    2. Meepmeep*

      Loved it loved it loved it. They found me a great contract job that was 3 hours a day, mostly remote, paid better than any other contract job I’ve had, fitted my resume to a “t”, and fitted perfectly with my childcare schedule. The recruiter I worked with was extremely responsive and supportive, and checked in with me regularly.

      I honestly can’t recommend them highly enough.

    3. LilySparrow*

      It took a while for my recommendations to come in line for the jobs I was looking for, but after a while it “learned” how to match me.

      But by the time that happened, I was in offer stage for another position, so I didn’t wind up using it much.

      It seemed very easy to use and like it had good quality jobs listed.

  24. Lalaith*

    I’d like to hear from other web developers here. I’ve been in not very coding-heavy positions for far too long, and my skills have really stagnated. The state of the profession has really flown past me. I don’t know Angular or React yet, I don’t do unit testing, I haven’t learned Node, and whenever I try to start learning one of them, I have to start installing things with npm and I get flummoxed. I mean, I can follow directions, but if anything goes wrong I’m hopeless. I just feel… lost. And stuck. And like I’m not sure I’m going to be able to catch up. Does anyone have any good resources for where to start with all of this? (I do know vanilla Javascript, jQuery, HTML, and CSS).

    1. Purt's Peas*

      I would come up with a project, and go through the React documentation / tutorial. Angular is an absolute nightmare to learn because the documentation is so poor, and everyone’s obsessed with looking like they know Angular instead of actually teaching it in a sensical way. The React docs are MUCH better.

      As for node, you know javascript, therefore you can learn node–it’s a javascript program that 1) allows you to run javascript easily not on a web browser, and 2) run a server very easily. If you want to learn node, I’d suggest looking at Express and (again :P ) running through their tutorial, and then coming up with a project of your own.

      Most of all, you may just have to strengthen your problem-solving muscles. I totally get being stymied by like, “I have to install WHAT??” but try and think of it like–React itself is easy, what you’re relearning is that troubleshooting & problem-solving skill.

      1. Lalaith*

        I’m also really bad at coming up with project ideas :-/ Which is unfortunate, because yeah, figuring out real problems with a real thing I’m trying to build is how I learn best.

        2. lemon*

          Free Code Camp? They have some modules that cover React and Node, and also have projects to work on.

        3. Purt’s Peas*

          Yeah, that is really hard! How about, first do a tutorial, and then spin up a website for a company that sells chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry teapots :)

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Have you ever used CodePen? It’s a web based platform for trying out various front-end technologies. Being web based, it means you don’t have to worry about installing anything on your own computer (or messing up that install). Several of my co-workers will use it when they want to prototype something quickly, since they can focus only on the coding part, and not the setup. Some of us have also been using it to play around with things like Angular and React. (We are currently using a framework that hasn’t been actively supported in a while, and we’re looking to jump, once we figure out which way.)

    3. Mill Miker*

      You might want to try looking at Glitch (https://glitch.com/). It lets you play with code directly in the browser, including Node and backend stuff.

      You can browse around, find a demo or little project you like, and then in just a click or two have your own copy you can modify without having to figure out all the setup. I think they have starter projects for things like React as well.

      I think they also have feature where you can “Raise you hand” and another user can see that and jump in to help you.

    4. Qwerty*

      Sites to check out: Edx, PluralSight, Udemy, Coursera

      Personally I found Angular to be easier to learn. There were major releases to Angular, Node, and npm last year that made it so you can now spin up a project rather easily. If you have access to PluralSight, look up the videos by John Papa. He is well known/respected in the industry for his training videos about Angular.

      React provides a good tutorial – they have both an “hands on” and a “written” option, depending on what your learning style is. It is part of the ReactJs website and the “hands on” version is usually the first option when you Google “React tutorial”. You make a tic-tac-toe game as part of the tutorial.

      For both Angular and React, I’ve found it easier to use the typescript versions over javascript because there are more tools that can be used to detect problems, but that might be because my background is from C# rather than Javascript.

      1. Qwerty*

        Since you mentioned struggling to come up with projects – start with something familiar. For instance, maybe some form of dataset that you have to display in a nice manner. Then include buttons and forms for adding, editing, deleting data. Maybe expand to charts or conditional coloring, etc. Look at adding one feature at a time.

        Another idea is to sort the functionality of a site or app that you use regularly, like a fake hotel booking or tracking and rating wine/beer/some food that you like.

  25. AndersonDarling*

    On interviewing with a customer…
    My husband is a service tech and goes on site at customer locations to work on equipment. He has an interview with one of his company’s customers that liked his work and wants him to come work there full time. I didn’t think much of it because it isn’t a non-compete situation because the businesses are different (he isn’t going from one service company to another service company). The job he is applying for is a manager role so even though he would be using his tech skills, it’s really a different job. But it still seems a bit awkward even though there is nothing in his handbook forbidding it. Has anyone gone to work for their company’s customer?

    1. Yup*

      I have and it was fine. I worked as a lab manager for a biotechnology company and I also setup their customer’s equipment on site.

      I developed a great rapport with several of the customer contacts. One contacted me about performing maintenance and troubleshooting on their four machines after the company wanted a $1,000,000 per year service contract. I had left the company and was working at a new job so we worked out a contract where I serviced the machines for $125 an hour.

      They bought me the required tools and all was good. I scheduled the service on weekends so there was no down time and received a 50% hourly premium for on call service. I worked for them for over two years.

    2. ArtK*

      The customer should check their contract. Even though there’s nothing in the employee handbook, the contract may have a “no poaching” clause that could cause trouble.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Good call. It’s a tiny company so I don’t think they are savvy enough to write anything into their contract, but it would be good to check.

      2. Hamburke*

        I know it’s in my company’s contracts and in our non-compete. And we’re tiny! Anyway, one former employee did go work for one of our clients as they outgrew our services but was very open about it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This should be fine. Eh, it should be fine if he went to work for a competitor as techs do this.

      My husband was a tech and he had a few job offers from customers. People change jobs, it happens. My husband did at one point go to work for a competitor. There’s only one thing harder than if the Old Employer is mean and that is if the Old Employer is nice. They were very nice. They politely asked him to come back and so on. It was hard in a way we never anticipated.
      He quit number 2 to go to work for number 3 and this time the Old Employer (#2) was mean. That was much easier to walk away from.

  26. Anonymom*

    I wanted to get the wise commentariat’s thoughts on something. We recently interviewed a candidate for an open position on our team. At the time she lived about seven hours away. We asked if she would be willing to relocate and she said yes. We offered her a position and she accepted. Her start date was set about a month out to give her time to relocate. She’s been in role for about a month now, and she kind of didn’t relocate. Her family is still living in her old state with no plans to move, ever. She’s living in a travel trailer and going home every weekend.
    Part of me feels like it’s none of my business where she lives or what her family arrangements are as long as she does her job. Another part of me thinks this is a crazy arrangement that is unsustainable and is bound to lead to burnout. And also that she kind of misled us when she said she’d relocate? Technically yes, she’s physically here, but her life isn’t. It really doesn’t make any difference how I feel about it since she’s here and we can address any performance issues that may result separately, but I was curious what others thought.

    1. ExcelJedi*

      This is none of your business.

      You’re right to focus on performance, and only bring it up if it’s an issue.

      On the other hand, if she’s a rock star and you wouldn’t mind helping her with a relocation bonus….maybe ask if there’s anything she needs to make her transition easier? Do it no more than once, and be casual about it, in a “how are you settling in?” conversation. But that’s the most I would do.

      1. Anonymom*

        I like the idea of asking how she’s settling in. We do offer really generous relocation packages, but I’ll have to look into the bonus idea.

    2. Jamie*

      She relocated. Maybe unconventional, but she did relocate in order to take the job and how that affects her personal life isn’t relevant to you as her employer.

      If it’s not sustainable for her you’ll know. If her whole family relocated it might not be sustainable for other reasons.

      I don’t think she did anything wrong and I wouldn’t never bring this up with someone.

      1. Anonymom*

        I definitely wasn’t planning to bring anything up to anyone. Just wanted to get others’ thoughts on it.

        1. Judy Rootytooty*

          She relocated. This could be her short term plans, living in a trailer. Perhaps husband will follow if/when he finds a job in the area. Perhaps if it becomes unsustainable, family will all move out. This is not a company concern.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      It could be complicated. I’ve known two people that worked across the country from their home. One worked over the weekends 5 states away, and one worked during the week 3 states away. Each would fly back and forth and stay locally during working times. In each case, they were married but each spouse had independent lives. It worked out well for everyone involved.

    4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      You can’t make her relocate, but I would have a back up plan if she ever ghosts, because this sounds ripe for her going home one weekend and not coming back or not being able to park her trailer. I’m just so curious too; where does she park her travel trailer each week? Are there camp grounds nearby that don’t care about someone basically taking up residency on the grounds, is she sort of squatting in a public or private parking lot somewhere, does she have a family/friend that allows her to park on their property? If she had a more permanent housing solution in your area (like an apartment), it wouldn’t be concerning at all.

      1. Anonymom*

        I’m not sure where she’s parking it. I agree though, I think that’s one of the things I’m finding odd and makes it seem like she’s a flight risk. But maybe she’s working on an apartment or something like that.

      2. moql*

        My of those campgrounds near cities actually encourage long stays, renting out a space by the week or month. I wouldn’t assume that is a problem.

    5. Goldfinch*

      I have a colleague doing this. He rents a room in a house, then goes home to another state on weekends. The family agreement is that they will keep doing this until the daughter graduates high school in two years, then they plan to re-evaluate the situation depending on her choice of college (in-state versus out-of-state tuition). He’s been working here for almost three years; it works for them.

    6. Free Meerkats*

      She’s doing her job well, right? Then where/how she lives is not your problem/business.

      One of the guys who works for me lived in his SUV for almost two years when he started here. It worked for him. Now that his kids have moved up here, he’s in more conventional housing. His wife and her kids moving here is complicated by her ex being a glasshole and the stupid Arizona laws.

    7. Bonita*

      I can understand why you feel misled. This is not a true relocation and it doesn’t sound sustainable in the longterm. But I don’t think there is anything you can do about it at this point until her situation cause performance issues and it probably will.

    8. WKRP*

      It can take some time to move a family. My brother moved to a temporary apartment 4 hours away, while the family stayed at their old place until the house sold and they secured housing for the whole family. It can take awhile and however your employee manages it is up to her.

    9. Princesa Zelda*

      My dad did this for 8 months when he relocated in September a few years back. My mom was already locked in for the school year, and the new job was leaps and bounds better than the old one. He still works there.

    10. Grits McGee*

      The head of my agency lives in the city our headquarters is located, while the rest of their family is 5+ hours away in NYC. The arrangement has lasted for 10 years so far. I think your instinct to just worry about performance is probably the best way forward.

    11. Arctic*

      I really don’t see the issue here. She absolutely did relocate. She’s living there most of the week. Picking up the whole family can be very disruptive.

      This is so normal. I’ve worked with guys (yes, the ones I have known have all been men) who have done this in three different workplaces. Currently our boss has his whole family in a Southern state while we are in New England. I don’t know that anyone ever even questioned it. Except in idle chit-chat. “Trecking all the way home this weekend?”

      And I hate to ask but would you feel differently if she were a man?

      1. CheeryO*

        This is a good point. The people I know who have done this are all men who had wives holding down the fort at home. I do think a woman living apart from her family during the week would get a different reaction, sadly.

    12. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I can definitely see why you’re concerned. Technically, it might be a ‘none of your business’ issue — where employees live or the details of their household infrastructure aren’t generally an employer’s business — but it doesn’t sound long-term sustainable. Are you in a climate where living in a travel trailer all winter is a feasible idea?

      On the other hand, these things really can take time. There was one point in my life where I wound up living with family friends for several weeks to attend school, as my parents needed time to pull together a major cross-state move and they didn’t have time to get it done before the school year started.

      Has she said directly to you that her family has no intention of moving? What did the rest of that conversation look like?

      1. Anonymom*

        Totally agree that her family arrangements are none of my business. I’m truly just concerned about the effect it might have on her performance and whether she’s likely to abandon ship because of it.

        We do have cold weather in the winter. Not terribly extreme but I don’t think a travel trailer will cut it.

        Also a good point—she hasn’t said directly to me that she doesn’t plan to relocate. That information came from one of my peers, so it’s definitely possible something was misinterpreted or lost in translation.

    13. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I agree with everyone else who posted that some people do well maintaining this long distance and that moving a family is rough. But consider that there may be something she’s not telling you, ex: she’s in the process of divorcing, her husband left her, she left an abusive relationship, she’s hiding from a stalker, she’s actually living in a halfway house/rehab center/shelter in your city, etc.

      I had an employee who did this, he said he lived in a town 50 miles away and was commuting to work, which we all thought was odd because his role was service-sector shiftwork and couldn’t he get that sort of job closer to home and save on gas? Because it was the recession, we just took him at his word. Years later, he admitted that for that first year, he was homeless and living in his car, and hid it by using a relative’s address.

      It may be something they are trying to hide on purpose, and prying could make them uncomfortable.

    14. SomebodyElse*

      I get where you are coming from… it can feel on the surface like the person has one foot out the door and they haven’t fully committed. I do think that situations like this are becoming more common and it’s likely that all of us will get more used to it in the future. It could be an indicator that the person isn’t planning to work at your location ‘long term’. I put that in quotes, because who knows what long term is anymore. (I’ve seen people relocate their entire family and then quit/relocate two years later) It’s not a definite sign, but more of a hint. It shouldn’t sway how you treat the employee or what opportunities they are given, but it is something keep in the back of your head.

      This is one of those times as a manager you have to set aside that feeling and evaluate the situation for what it is. If there aren’t any issues that come because of the living arrangement, then there’s nothing to be done about it.

      If there are performance issues, then as you say you deal with the issues not the why’s of the issue and as I mentioned, you shouldn’t change the way the way to treat this employee at all, be that performance, opportunity, or special leeway because of circumstances (if you don’t also extend that to others).

    15. CheeryO*

      I know several people who have or had these sorts of arrangements for years and years. One crosses an international border every weekend to go home to his family. Another had an apartment near work and worked four 10s and drove 16 hours round-trip every weekend. Another lived on a house boat and literally boated home across some weirdly long distance every weekend.

      If it works for them, it’s not your place to judge it.

    16. RabbitRabbit*

      My old department manager did this for over 5 years. It’s not really easy to say whether you are an accurate judge of someone else’s capacity to have a life in a different state from where they work.

    17. Mama Bear*

      If there was no moving money provided (or she only used what was appropriate for one person) then where she lives is irrelevant if comes to the office and does the job. My child’s principal left his family in another state at least initially. I didn’t care EXCEPT it made him scarce because he would drive home instead of staying for events or being available for meetings. IMO that’s part of an elementary school principal’s job. But if that’s not the case here and her job isn’t affected, then I would not focus on it. You don’t know if she’s dealing with a separation, if there’s a child who needs medical care or needs to stay in a particular school, etc. SHE did relocate so she didn’t mislead you. One of my relatives has a condo in town and a nice countryside house way out of town. They save the 2+ hr one way commute by staying in town M-F. It’s unusual but not unheard of. If the worry is that it’s a travel trailer, maybe she’s trying to cut expenses or taking time to find an apartment or simply likes it – could be like a tiny house. Again, not really something you should nitpick. Judge her by her behavior and her work, not her housing.

      1. Anonymom*

        Our company has a really, really generous relocation policy, so I don’t think money is an issue.

        Definitely not judging her family arrangements because it’s not my business. I’m just concerned about how it will affect performance going forward. We’ll just have to deal with that if it happens though!

    18. CupcakeCounter*

      Jobs and school (for the other family members) usually take more than a month to figure out. Maybe the rest of the family moves out this summer after the school year ends. Maybe her partner has a contract position or they need to fix up and sell their house. Maybe the cost to get out of their lease is cost prohibitive.
      The CEO of my parent company lives in Memphis and the company HQ is in Kansas City. He spends 50% of his time at HQ, 25% on the road at our various locations, and the other 25% WFH. Only one member of the C-suite lives within an hour of HQ.

    19. Semi Famous, Mostly Anonymous*

      She’s physically here, but her life isn’t. Huh. Is there a reason why she needs to have her family in town? (Is there a business need for her to live in the community the company serves?) Otherwise this sounds like a made for tv movie set up. “In order to get the job, Joan needed to have a happy family living in town X. She hires a husband and dog, but didn’t expect that her fake marriage would cause real feelings…” watch “Happily Employed” next Thursday at 7pm CST on the Hallmark channel.

      This is not a business concern. Plus she did relocate. She is in town M-F, and available locally during the workweek.

      1. Square*

        Well, this is not a normal way for a person to live long term, so I don’t think she did fully relocate. I think it’s reasonable to wonder how long it’s going to be before she gets sick of this arrangement and starts looking for another job where her family lives. 

        1. Not All*

          Not “normal” in the sense that “more than 50% of people don’t do this” but there is actually a very substantial percentage of people who have this type of arrangement for their entire careers. I’ve seen it especially when one spouse has a job in an incredibly high cost of living urban area and in dual-career federal employees. For that matter, it would be basically the status quo for the relationship I’m in since, for various reasons, we don’t ever want to actually live together.

          1. Anonymom*

            Part of what’s bothering me is it feels like she didn’t fully relocate but I am sure my own feelings about this are colored by what an arrangement like that would mean for my family if me or my husband did this. Which really isn’t relevant to her situation!

            For what it’s worth, the area where the business is has a lower cost of living than where she lives. And spouse job and not wanting to take a child out of school aren’t a factor.

        2. Kat in VA*

          For some it is – think of oil rig/field workers, truck drivers, even folks in the military. Is it “normal” for a regular 9-5 office job? No, not really – but “not normal” isn’t the same as “not sustainable”.

        3. Yipyip see mmnuma na*

          But where is the line drawn? If she was living in an apartment, would that be relocated enough? Would she have to promise not to leave the state to visit husband/children-is that relocated enough? Would husband/children have to move to new state in order to be relocated enough?
          Sure she might burn out in a few years, but was she hired with the understanding that she CAN NEVER leave? Is this an un breakable ten year contract?

      3. Anonymom*

        Haha! Definitely didn’t mean to sound so dramatic! I think I neglected to mention, though, because I think it was a subconscious thought that I’m working through as I read all these great perspectives, that the nature of the job means we’re unofficially always on call. Most weekend work can be done online but there are definitely situations that mean we have to be in the office outside of regular working hours. They’re few and far between though, so I’m probably borrowing trouble there.

    20. Emily*

      It could be she IS relocating. A month is barely enough time to sell a home and go through closing, let alone find a new one in a new state. I would leave this alone.

    21. Sabrina Spellman*

      Unless she’s required to be on call during the weekend, where she is at that time isn’t any of your business.

    22. jackers*

      I know of two families that made this work.

      The first was actually the pastor at my parents’ church. They did not want to sell their family farm in MN and for tax (?) purposes, someone had to reside there for a certain number of months a year. So he preached in Indiana, she taught school in Minnesota and they visited as often as they could – older couple with grown kids. Made it work for 6-7ish years before he retired.

      The second was a past manager of mine. Older couple, no kids. She was actually Canadian, rented an apartment in town and went home about 2 weekends a month. He would occasionally visit her in the US. They had that arrangement for probably 15 years before she retired.

      It can work, but I understand why you have concerns. I actually think my husband and I could make something like this work in our later years (currently still have a teenager at home).

    23. CoastEast*

      The military calls this GeoBaching– its the equivalent of living somewhere to make money and send money to your family. Maybe its cheaper for her to live in a travel trailer with her family separated from her than it is for them to all relocate. Or maybe she wants time away from them. Either way, it is not entirely unheard of.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        *LOL* Geo-baching.

        I can always count on the military to find the perfect pun-y catchphrase. (See also: fobbit, soup sandwich, officer candy, chest lettuce, blue falcon, etc etc etc)

      2. Anonymom*

        Definitely a valid point but it doesn’t apply in this case. The area where the business is located is lower cost of living than where her family lives. Spouse job isn’t an issue, and not wanting to move a child from a school isn’t either. Our company also offer really, really generous relocation policies as well. But she may just want a break from her family!

        1. Retail Therapist*

          Or maybe her spouse and kid plan on relocating at the end of the school year.
          or perhaps they plan on relocating when kid finishes middle school.
          or perhaps they plan on relocating after the grandparent/parent spouse is taking care of is moved to hospice.
          There could be many, many reasons. As long as employee can do the job, the rest is noyb.

    24. Donkey Hotey*

      With respect, you didn’t ask her family to relocate, you asked -her- to relocate and she did.

      So long as she’s performing within parameters and not sleeping in the office or bathing in the bathroom sink, it is exactly -none- of your business where she’s staying.

    25. fhqwhgads*

      I experienced this once where the hired person has expressed the desire to move to the area to be closer to family while interviewing. Then after accepting it turned out since it was the middle of the school year, his immediate family wasn’t moving with him for six months. No one thought anything of it. Their family. Their business. When end of school came round, the employee resigned and then moved back to original location for a position there. No idea if they never really intended to move or just got here and realized he didn’t actually want to live here, even to be closer to other family…or the kids didn’t want to move or what. I’m sure there are many scenarios which could play out so far like yours has and where the person is cool with it or the family really will move later or any number of other positive outcomes. But from what you’ve said so far, I’d be prepared for this employee to maybe not last very long in the role by their own choosing.

  27. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

    This was a pretty small incident, not very high stakes but wonder how I can do this differently next time it comes up: 

    I was training a new remote hire and doing a screenshare. There were a lot of loud voices and banging of metal objects/hammering noise in the background. I paused a few times during my training and said “sorry, ti’s just so loud!” She laughed and said sorry, her son was doing the dishes and being extra loud. There was a dog barking towards the end of the call. No acknowledgment. To me, it was unprofessional.

    See, in my mind…..if the roles were reversed, and I was the one in training, I would have made sure I was in a quiet space or ask them to minimize the noise…at the very least I would apologize for it.

    I was really thrown off by the noise. I am OK with background noise but constant repeated clanging, hammering, banging, I LOATHE IT. I don”t think I have sensory issues, but I really really hate repetitive noises. 

    Am I overthinking this? My coworker (peer) said I should’ve been direct but I have a hard time being direct, esp with new people. We’re very much a “make people feel at ease and engage them” type of culture and while I like that culture, sometimes I just feel like I have a face and voice that has the opposite effect (grating, alienating, not charming or soothing) and I would end up coming across snotty or mean.

    1. JimmyJab*

      Your coworker was right in my opinion – you should have been direct. If it happens again I’d say something like, “I’m sorry, but the background noise is really making this conversation difficult. Is it possible for you to move somewhere more quiet so we can continue? If not, perhaps we need to find another time when you can find a quieter spot.”

      1. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. If I had a meeting while remote, I did things like leave the room or send the kids outside. It’s not polite to the person on the other end to have lots of competing noises/distractions. The jackhammering may not have been under their control, but the rest of it could have been. Also, they could be encouraged to use headphones and/or be on mute when not speaking. I’d address this because a client might look on it way less favorably than her own company. FWIW, I WFH from the time my kid was a toddler and she learned that when I needed her to be quiet, I meant it and she learned how to ask for help without being loud. It may just be something you need to spell out.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yeah, I work from home in my apartment in the city, so noise is just inevitable on my end in calls. When I know my building’s maintenance staff will be drilling or working very loudly on fixing up our common areas or a neighboring apartment, I let people on my conference calls know in advance that some work outside of my apartment is being completed and apologize ahead of time for the inconvenience. I then make sure my speakerphone is muted when I’m not talking to block the sound.

          In this case, the employee should have warned you ahead of time, OP, that you may have heard some background noise from her son and then she should have placed herself on mute when she didn’t need to talk or ask questions. I’d give her that feedback should it happen again.

          1. Amethystmoon*

            Push to talk is usually what I do on conference calls. Also that way, no one hears breathing/coffee sipping/etc.

      2. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        Oh I definitely should have been direct, but it’s one of my weak points I’m working on. My other coworkers who did the training agreed that it was unprofessional of the person to have had that.

        Contrasted with another remote I was meeting with–their dog barked and they msgd me right away to apologize for it–to me that was the right way to handle it. I don’t hate dogs, I love them actually, but the banging noises were driving me crazy.

    2. Jamie*

      You’re not overthinking it. I would have ended the training after it was clear it wasn’t just a brief interruption and told her we needed to reschedule when we wouldn’t be continually interrupted by background noise.

      The dog barking toward the end of the call, if it was brief and you were wrapping up a quick apology from her is fine. If it was excessive I’d have again cut the call short.

        1. valentine*

          It’s the lack of apology that I found unprofessional
          You didn’t tell her it bothered you. She may think you were just curious about what it was and that you’re on the same page, where that’s just life. I can see where an apology makes you feel better, but redirecting that to doing what you can to improve the situation for yourself is probably going to have good long-term results for you. You had the power here. You don’t have to suffer in silence.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            This. It sounds like you weren’t clear it was a problem. Now, people with good manners usually preemptively apologize for stuff like this ahead of time or as the issues crop up, but she’s clearly not that way, so if you end up in this situation again, you need to speak up and say that the noise is distracting and ask for her to fix it immediately or you’ll have to end the call.

          3. Roverandom*

            Oh goodness, you shouldn’t have to tell someone that background noise bothers you. OP pointed out that it was hard to hear, that is them bringing up that it bothers them.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Some companies who do remote workers have a policy. Have to have child care, no pet noises, quiet background. Basically to address this type of stuff.

      And are you really doing her any favors by not making it clear that her setup wasn’t working? Just because you feel uncomfortable, and it may be an uncomfortable conversation in the moment, doesn’t mean that shouldn’t do it.

      1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        I believe my company made this a requirement of all remote workers, to have a separate space for work as in this role they would be speaking to clients daily so a quiet background was required.

        1. Deanna Troi*

          I don’t know if you’re her manager or not, but I think you should talk to her about the fact that the company expects her to be in a relatively non-chaotic environment when talking to clients. If you are her manager, you should let her know that the noise on the call would have been unacceptable for a client call.

    4. Arctic*

      This is another way the stupid trend of open space living has ruined everything.

      It can be really hard to find a quiet space in your own home.

      (I agree with you, by the way. It just can be hard. Especially when nowadays the only rooms with doors are often bedrooms and bathrooms. And bathroom is obviously out of the question. And a bedroom can seem to intimate.)

      1. Jess*

        Yes, and it’s also nearly impossible to find a quiet place outside your home, too. I have pets, a spouse, no pristine blank walled rooms with good lighting in my house, etc. and I never know what to do when I have a Skype interview. People often suggest the library but more often than no private areas that can be reserved for one person and where you’re allowed to talk. It’s an issue.

        1. KMB13*

          I have this problem when it comes to interviews, as well, to the point where I usually take Skype interviews at my parents’ house – they have two small dogs, but the dogs rarely, if ever, bark, and their house is much larger than mine, so it’s easy to lock myself in a room while my mom (who is retired) keeps the dogs in another room at the other end of the house. They also live on a larger wooded lot – their house sits back far from the road and they aren’t too close to any neighbors. They don’t have any blank walls, but their decor is very simple.

          Contrast this with my house – I don’t have kids, but I have a loud dog who only gets louder if you lock her in a room or lock yourself in a room away from her. My house is small so her barking can be heard from nearly anywhere in the house. I live in a city on a small lot, so there’s a lot more street noise, and there’s seemingly always some sort of construction going on in my neighborhood. My decor tends toward the (visually) louder/more distracting style, as well.

          I’m lucky to have the option to head to my parents’ house, but I know most people aren’t nearly that lucky. It can be a real issue!

  28. wingmaster*

    Bad reviews on Glassdoor / Indeed

    Have you ever brought this up in an interview?
    How much do you consider this when thinking about a job offer?

    I’m at the final stages of an interview process, and I have a phone call with the CEO today. But after reading some reviews, and a few articles regarding the CEO, I’ve definitely reconsidered if I want to pursue this opportunity.

    I’d love to hear anyone’s thoughts.

    1. stitchinthyme*

      I would ask if it was possible to speak with any current non-management employees, preferably ones with positions similar to yours or working for the same manager, and ask them about their experiences.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I think it is fair to bring it up if there is a consistent theme in the reviews. Then you can see if the company at least acknowledges that they have a problem or is ignoring it completely.

    3. bad reviews*

      I think since it’s publically available info, they should expect you’d do due dilligence. Yes, I have brought it up, because my interest was contingent on the answer. It’s not so much the info itself for me as they way they respond to my inquiry… Are they defensive, off-put, surprised, open about the challenges, addressing the issue? In your case, it seems more specific to the CEO as a person, in which case, you might be able to get what you need just from how they conduct themself during the call.

    4. KnittyGritty*

      My experience: I absolutely brought up the somewhat negative Glassdoor reviews of during the interviews for my current job. (spoiler alert – I took the job!). The owners of the company were very open and honest about what happened that led to those reviews. They did not try to hide from the reviews or react negatively at all. Combined with everything else I learned about the company, I took the job. Been here 18 months and do not regret it in the slightest.

      I think Glassdoor/Indeed reviews can be a part of the overall decision making process, but should not be a sole factor in that process.

        1. KnittyGritty*

          I brought it up during the “what questions do you have for us” phase. Made sure to use a fairly neutral tone and asked “I’ve read the Glassdoor reviews and I wondered if we could talk a little about those? A few of the reviews were not very flattering to the company and I wanted to get your take on those.”

    5. Llama Wrangler*

      I brought it up after an offer was made, not in an interview, but that was in part because I had thought I was going to have a final interview to ask more questions about culture, and I got the offer sooner than expected. In my case, the organization was going through a period of change and it was my sense that the reviews predated some of that; this was confirmed and other questions that I asked reinforced that the culture was one where I wanted to work.

    6. Diahann Carroll*

      I’ve read the reviews on both sites before initial HR phone screenings with companies and if I don’t like what I read, I may ask the HR rep some questions to try to get a general idea about the company’s culture. But there have been a couple of times where the reviews were so bad, I just cancelled the phone screen because I knew there was no way in hell I’d accept a job with that company no matter what.

      I’ve now started reading reviews before I even apply to a place to save my time from filling out a job app for a place I’d most likely decline to work for in the end. Those sites are good vetting tools once you can spot patterns.

    7. LilySparrow*

      I brought up Glassdoor in my interview for my current job, because there was one that was so extremely negative, it was a complete outlier. I framed it that I always read reviews on products and everything, because it reveals when people’s expectations don’t line up with the reality of the situation. It was obvious that this person had some kind of skewed expectations, and could the hiring manager shed any light on it, because I want to have realistic expectations.

      It was very well received and we had a productive talk. (Turns out the person hadn’t actually worked there – they got rejected & were trolling.)

      But I generally think bad reviews give useful information about what type of person is going to be a good fit for a company or role. Unless they’re uniformly bad for similar reasons – that indicates a consistent problem.

  29. Amber Rose*

    Some random updates, the summary of which is: the company getting rid of our old C-level was probably the best thing to happen to all of us, even though I feel kinda bad saying that.

    I was asked to draft a harassment policy, successfully advocated to be sent to a class on workplace harassment, turned our one paragraph policy into a proper document, and got kudos from the CEO for “initiative” on knowing that the class existed and taking it. Guys, I did initiative right! By accident! :D

    I also advocated for and got approval to start an HR department, only we’re calling it a committee because “department” is too aggressive? That one’s weird, but the point is that when we’re done, there will be a group of three of us who have the power to address issues in the workplace. One of them is me, which I’m excited about because I wanted to find a way to get into HR work. Anyone who has any advice on how to start up our little group the right way, as none of us have any education or training, I would love to hear from you. (Things are better, not perfect.) My first goal is to convince them to implement an EAP, since we don’t have one. We’re gonna have a meeting about it.

    And, I FINALLY, after over a year, got approval to pay the darn bill to get rid of the DMS that has been haunting my life this whole time. Yes, it’s an exorbitant sum for such a tiny object, but also that tiny object could kill everyone in this building so. Thank you, new CEO.

    So yeah. Now that the barriers are gone, or lower, we’re gonna get some stuff DONE. And I am hoping for a nice shiny raise at the end.

    1. Evil HR Person*

      First things first: if you have insurance via your employer, you may already have an EAP! You’d have to see if it’s part of your dental/vision insurance. At my work, it is. If you have a broker, check with them. And if you don’t have one, the broker will help you.

      Second, get a membership to both SHRM-National and a local SHRM chapter (I’m assuming you’re in the U.S., although SHRM is international). This will help with more than just keeping up with current laws. They have webinars and seminars about HR. Get into a seminar for people with newly-assigned HR responsibilities. If you learn better by attending an in-person one, then attend. If not, I’m sure there are tons of webinars. There is so much to learn about the craft, but I think these are good starting points.

      1. Amber Rose*

        We don’t have an EAP. I already talked to our insurance company, it’s not part of our package. I’m trying to arrange a meeting between them and our current CEO to talk about our options, but everything’s so busy and ridiculous right now it might take a little time.

        I’m also not US, I’m Canadian. I’ll look into SHRM though.

        1. A tester, not a developer*

          I’m with an insurance company in Canada, and our own EAP is with Morneau Shepell. I really like the suite of services they offer, especially if you have a lot of diversity in ages/life stages of your employees.

    2. PersistentCat*

      …What’s a DMS that could kill everyone? Somehow I doubt document management systems kill people…killer headaches, maybe, but not deadly in & of themselves.

      1. Amber Rose*

        The killer DMS is the one that means dimethyl sulfate. It’s a relative of mustard gas. A tiny drop on your skin could kill you. If it didn’t, you’d probably wish it had. I still have nightmares from the documentation I was reading about it.

        Needless to say, I was not super happy they brought this stuff in because we definitely do not have the required safety measures for handling it. I had been on these Friday threads a couple of times looking for some help convincing my company what a horribly bad idea it was.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Nice turn around on this story. There was new levels of despair in the old story. You sound pretty happy/excited. I am glad things are turning around. It was bleak there for a while.

        2. Nesprin*

          Ooof. Your environmental health and safety guys aren’t doing their jobs if you brought something in without knowing how to get rid of it. Sounds like a standard operating procedure generating procedure breakdown.
          -signed, terrified by chlorine trifluorate

  30. tcro*

    Best way to follow-up..? There is a start-up company that is gaining lots of traction… I actually know the co-owner/co-founder, as they worked for me previously (probably 9 years ago). We had a friendly working relationship and have kept up on social media since then. On the website, they have feature where you can submit a resume/cover letter, even if not for a specific posted job. I did so, a little over a week ago… and haven’t heard anything. Not even the canned “thank you for your interest in X company…..” type of thing.

    I imagine that it’s a long shot that my interest could translate to an actual job…. but I’m wondering if I should reach out to my contact specifically (it would probably have to be an Instagram DM ) and just say, “hey, I’m so excited about X company and the great work you’re doing. I wanted to let you know that I submitted my resume on X website and just wanted to let you know. Keep me posted if anything seems like a good fit”? Or should I just not bother and follow the proper channels. For what it’s worth, in the cover letter that I submitted, I did mention my connection to the co-founder, in case it’s someone totally random who screens, in hopes that it might give me a nudge.

    1. MissGirl*

      Where you didn’t apply to an actual job, I wouldn’t expect any response unless they had a specific position they wanted to talk to you about. I would definitely reach out to your contact and tell him you’re excited by what they’re doing and would love to talk to him. Definitely do not reach out on Instagram.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        I agree reach out, but how you reach out has a lot to do with the relationship. If you are already following each other on Instagram, it’s fair to reach out through IG – wherever he’s active. I would also hunt for them on LinkdIn and make sure you’re connected there too, but only mssg through one social media link.

        And then let go.

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              Yes, that for sure – personal IG only, and only because you have an existing connection there.

    2. Not your dad's recruiter*

      If this is a startup, they probably do not quite have a procedure set up for resume processing.
      I would recommend contacting the person you know and ask for a conversation directly.

  31. Bunny*

    Are managers aware at how much people read into their emails announcing staff changes with regards to tone and language?

    We get ones anywhere between effusive best wishes to terse ones strongly suggesting the person was let go with cause. But a few weeks ago we got one announcing the departure of a staff member that was well liked and that I know for a fact left on very good terms yet the announcement was very matter of fact and generic, if I hadn’t known the circumstances regarding her departure I think I would have believed that she did not leave on good terms.

    Is this something I and many of my co-workers are reading way too much into?

    1. coruscate: shine bright like a diamond*

      It could have been timing on the writer’s part: hastily written, on a time crunch, not thinking it through and definitely not thinking about the tone. That’s why it’s better to keep the departure notices exactly the same and allow staff to do their own good-bye’s as they/if they know the circumstances.

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I wouldn’t read too much into the emails if they’re coming from different managers — everyone has a different style and it’s probably not a reflection on the departing person at all. If it’s the same manager though, and they give one person a glowing best wishes and another person a terse announcement of their last day, then it does make a bad impression. I wish orgs would have a required standard template for departures — it probably seems really impersonal to some but it would cut down on all the guessing on who was fired, quit in a huff, or would be welcome back if they decided to return.

      1. Lana Kane*

        Was going to say the same thing. if it’s different people sending the emails, it will come down to the person’s style and how much they understand or care about tone in email.

        If it’s the same person, could be time crunch, etc.

        This is why I aim for mine to be very similar across the board.

    3. Rose Tyler*

      I think it’s both (reading too much into it but also not being great practice to vary the tone of the message). I’ve had to write an email to the team about a departure with just a few minutes’ notice because news was about to get out for whatever reason and we wanted a note from management to go out first. I would not have had time to write anything effusive even if I’d wanted to. BUT, at the same time, managers should probably aim to have consistency in these types of messages and not be effusive anyway, because it does set up exactly the questions you have in your mind right now.

    4. sheep jump death match*

      One place I worked at used a form email from HR for departures. It was super neutral and professional and impossible to read anything into. I loved it.

    5. Gatomon*

      I’m not sure, but they should. Writing a departure email for another employee is sort of an art form, I think. I’ve seen some bosses who manage to write really great thoughtful and unique messages for each person, even when it was well known that there was no love between them in the workplace. I’ve also seen really terse 1 or 2 liners that reflected poorly on the person who wrote them because they failed to acknowledge the awesome person who was departing. And I’ve seen your typical canned, “we’ll miss Jane, best wishes, please take all concerns to Tom” generic message too.

      To be honest I’d be a generic response writer myself. The only emotions I can express well are anger and sarcasm, neither of which are appropriate!

    6. Diahann Carroll*

      Is this something I and many of my co-workers are reading way too much into?

      If you are, so am I, lol. We just received a company-wide email the other day letting us know that someone who had been in charge of sending out all of the important company internal messages was moving on, but the email basically only devoted a line about it with a cursory, “we wish her the best,” before they launched into a spiel about the department that was going to take over her duties and how we should be communicating with them going forward. If she did leave of her own volition, it didn’t seem like it, lol.

  32. katamari*

    How do you recover from burnout while staying in your same position?

    Last year at my job, I was promoted to a higher title/pay. Which was great! But, I was given a new and very intense project, involving a LOT of firefighting, while having none of my old work taken away. (It was promised that 2 of my other major assignments would be shifted to other people, but due to a lot of other assignments shifting around, there were major delays in doing it.) As a result, I basically ended up doing my normal job plus a very intense new job at the same time for 9 months straight. I was working early mornings, late nights, weekends and holidays just to avoid totally neglecting all of my projects/clients (and yes, I filed for overtime to reflect this, but that didn’t seem to catch anyone’s attention or concern). My mental state, my concentration and my quality of work suffered tremendously. I was doing “passing grade” work for all of my clients and just did not have the time or mental bandwidth to do truly A+ work. If I had a dollar for every time I had to start an email with “I am sorry I wasn’t able to respond sooner” or “I am sorry I missed your previous email…” I could take a nice vacation.

    At the 7-month mark I had a slight meltdown and essentially told my managers, I cannot do this anymore. They have been good about taking work off my plate and giving me room to breathe. While I think there were serious problems at the beginning of this process, I do think my managers have made a solid effort to relieve me of some of the excess work. But now I still find that the mental exhaustion has not gone away. I make so many stupid, avoidable mistakes because my brain still feels too dry and exhausted to focus. I am 10 minutes late every day because I struggle so much with motivation to go into work. I get asked questions, even simple questions, and I’m instantly angry and irritated that someone else wants something from me. When I’m asked to look into a problem with any complexity whatsoever, I feel a heavy weight of dread in my chest.

    I hate feeling this way. I know I am capable of better work if I could just get myself in gear. Despite this rough year, I actually do like my job and workplace and I want to excel at my work. Has anyone come back from burnout like this and how did you do it?

    1. Ama*

      I have to say, I am interested in the responses to this one, because I am kind of in the same boat. We had a very intense first six months of the year here (I also went to my boss and flagged for her that my department and I could not handle that level of work again without additional staff, which she agreed to) and I have still not fully recovered. I also hear you about the anger — even being heard by my management it really is hard to get over the resentment that it even happened in the first place.

      I will say if there’s any way you can plan a significant amount of time off in the near future, do it, but I’ll also warn you that if your burnout is as bad as mine it won’t necessarily fix everything — still having some space from work did help a bit with at least the “not resenting my coworkers for asking questions” part if I’m still struggling with the rest of it.

      One thing I do just to keep myself moving is sort of a work focused bullet journal. At the end of each day I write down 3-5 tasks to be my goal for the next day (I keep it simple; if I am working on a big project the tasks might be small portions of the overall work). That way if I am having trouble focusing I can always look at my list and do those things and at least that keeps my work moving forward.

    2. J.B.*

      I’ve seen burnout described as a specific type of anxiety, and the irritation you describe is certainly lizard-brain-like. I got burned out at a very toxic job and struggled for a little at my much better job because things were kind of slow actually.

      Mindfulness is great to try. Rewarding yourself for checking things off your list is also helpful. Some people do something called the pomodoro technique. Checklisting and writing down instructions can help. Maybe make yourself a weekly appointment of something and make sure you keep it (bring the schedule to your bosses if necessary and say you will be out at this time.)

    3. Gatomon*

      Be gentle on yourself, as my old therapist used to say! I think burnout is something that takes a while to get in and out of. I think of it as a debt – you borrowed against “tomorrow’s” work capacity to do more today, and now you have to pay it back with interest. So your performance will be below normal for a while. A vacation (a real, true, totally disconnected one) can help jumpstart your recovery, but you may need to make additional changes to accommodate things.

      I spent 4 years going back to school and working, both full time. When I started, I had a job where I really didn’t have any tasks but to show up, so mentally it was easy. By the time I graduated, I’d changed careers and companies and been promoted a few times to where I actually have a challenge every day at work, and trying to do both was excruciating by the end.

      For me, my focus/concentration and memory were decimated by the burnout. To help at work while I recover, I have gotten real serious about organizing, to the put that I have a reoccurring 1/2 hour block on my calendar dedicated to it. I don’t always need that much, and sometimes I need more, but it really helps me stay on top of things since my brain is failing me.

      I’ve been using a combination of paper for initial note taking, One Note for stuff that needs to be tracked/saved long term and various personal spreadsheets/checklists to keep track of and make sure I have what I need for the projects I’m assigned to. I’m not cured of burnout yet, but I can at least remember that I have an Acme Corp project when someone calls me about it now.

      I’ve also been trying timeblocking to both realistically estimate when I can get to something and ensure things get done according to deadlines. No one in my company is good about using Outlook calendars to see if someone is free so I can clutter mine up all I want. (I use the categories feature to color-code meetings so they pop out compared to everything else when I glance at my day. For example, customer meetings are dark blue and internal meetings are dark green.)

      The final thing I am trying is based on an article, “The Only 5 Email Folders Your Inbox Will Ever Need.” Basically instead of organizing emails by topic, organize them by deadline. I really like it, and it saved me from maintaining 100+ folders or succumbing to the Neverending Inbox of Doom that I’ve seen others suffer with.

  33. many bells down*

    This week I went to heat up my lunch at work and realized to my horror that I’d grabbed salmon pasta without thinking. I’m THAT PERSON who microwaves fish at work.

    1. Jamie*

      It’s a shame, but your only options are to quit without notice, change your name, move out of town, and send your co-workers boxes of money with apology notes.

      I’m sure you will be missed :)

      1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

        Or, see if you can convince everyone it was Someone Else who caused the place to smell like fish.

    2. Another JD*

      I grabbed leftovers from the fridge last week, then realized I was the coworker microwaving fish and cabbage. Oops.

    5. JB*

      One of my coworkers was entered in a body building competition so his diet was exclusively fish, three times a day during the work day, everyday for at least three months. So at least it wasn’t that!

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      Too late now, but if you make the same mistake, make sure you cover the dish. A paper plate is best, but even a paper towel will help prevent splatter.

    9. Donkey Hotey*

      If it ever happens again: keep it in the fridge, order delivery (or find take-out), and take the lunch home at night.
      Better to be out $10 for lunch than being THAT PERSON.

  34. stitchinthyme*

    This is work-related, but about someone else’s work, not mine. The short version: is it appropriate to send a message of appreciation to someone’s current workplace for something they did at their previous workplace?

    The background: I had severe hearing loss in one ear and mild loss in the other, so I had hearing aids and regularly saw an audiologist for hearing tests and adjustments. At the beginning of the year, my audiologist suggested that I might be a candidate for a cochlear implant in my bad ear, something I’d never thought of for myself before. I went for the evaluation, got approved, and had the surgery this past summer. I figure it would be an improvement, but not have a significant impact on my life since I still had one good ear in addition.

    Two weeks after the surgery, before my implant was even activated, I experienced a new hearing loss episode in what had been my “good” ear, dropping my speech recognition in that ear from 90% down to 40%; since I had a history of these sudden losses (this was my third), it was most likely unrelated to the surgery and just unfortunate (or fortunate, depending how you look at it) timing. But anyway, the upshot of all this is that now, 2 months post-activation, I’m basically relying on the cochlear implant for understanding people, and it’s had a huge positive effect on my quality of life — it’s not perfect, but I definitely understand way more with it than with my other ear.

    I really wanted to thank my audiologist for suggesting the CI, and I was going to do that during my next appointment, but it turns out she’s left the practice she was at. A quick Google search turned up the place she works now, but it’s impractical for me to follow her there as the location is inconvenient. They do have a contact form on their website, so I am debating whether it would be appropriate to send her a message of thanks at her new workplace, even though it’s a central contact form that would likely go to the receptionist or whoever monitors the incoming email for the practice rather than her personally. Needless to say, there is no direct contact info for staff members listed, and I’m reluctant to call, both because of the likelihood of having to go through the receptionist and because I’m not fond of the phone.

    I can just let it go and enjoy my ability to hear, of course. But I am sure that when people have a positive impact on your life, they appreciate hearing about it. So, do I send a message through the website, or just let it be?

    1. CM*

      I wouldn’t send a message through the website because it’s not intended for personal messages. Could you mail a postcard or a note to the business, addressed to her?

    2. fposte*

      I don’t see any way sending a message through the form would *hurt* anything–worst case scenario is that it doesn’t get to her. You could also frame it as praise for her work, even though it was work done in a prior location.

    4. Lontra Canadensis*

      I can’t think of any reason not to send it – you’re thanking her for her professional skill/opinion and the results, and it doesn’t reflect negatively on either practice.

    5. Nancy*

      I’d send the message. I think it’s a really nice gesture, and, from a clinical perspective, good feedback for the audiologist.

    6. CheeryO*

      I would just send a card with a little note to the new office. I don’t think it’s appropriate to use the message portal since it’s not an endorsement of her work under their practice.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Does it make any difference that her LinkedIn profile lists her as an Audiologist/Owner at her new practice?

        1. MoopySwarpet*

          Maybe you could reach out through LinkedIn? I don’t know if you actually have to “connect” to send a message. Although, I think you can send a message with your connect request.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            I did think of that, but you can’t send a message to someone you’re not connected to unless you pay for premium, which I haven’t done (and am not really interested in). I haven’t connected with her because I tend to use LinkedIn to connect only with people I’ve worked with, not medical practitioners.

    7. Emily*

      I think a handwritten card addressed to her at her office would be nice (and she would definitely get it), but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with reaching out via a contact form. You could write it like a normal letter, addressed to her, and explain that you weren’t sure how else to get in touch but didn’t want to miss the chance to thank her.

      Another suggestion – can you find her email online anywhere?

  35. Chronically Depressed*

    On the encouragement of my therapist, I asked my boss yesterday for ADA accommodations for my depression and if I could work from home one day a week. Her initial reaction was defensive and I think she misunderstood a bit until we talked more, and she seems supportive now but I worry I messed up and made a career mistake. Especially since I just kept saying “It’s hard to explain” when she wondered how exactly this would help, as my first response was “social interaction is draining” and she said this wasn’t a face to face type job. Some friends of mine assured me I did the right thing, but I wonder if I should have just kept going with how things are and spend the weekend recovering. It’s not like I try not to cry in my cube, I just struggle some days and tend to burn through my 6 sick days a year early… I’m currently saving my last 3 vacation days as emergency sick days. My home is a wreck because I never have the energy to take care of stuff once I get home from work, and spend the weekend sleeping and trying to get energy to deal with the new work week.

    1. CM*

      It sounds like your boss doesn’t really understand the impact depression has on you, and you struggle to explain it. But it sounds like it was worth bringing up. Did your boss agree? If not, maybe you can practice with a friend communicating how working from home one day a week would help mitigate the effects of depression while helping you get your working done.

      1. Chronically Depressed*

        Boss is going to HR person about it as she doesn’t have the power to approve it or anything, which is why I mentioned she seems supportive now. She has a meeting with HR person on Monday about it, and she asked me to get paperwork from my psychologist and psychiatrist just in case the company needs it. I think she initially thought I was asking for a 3 day weekend or I wouldn’t be actually working from home? I’m not sure. She then asked if I can handle a new project she was taking me on for, which I said I could but I worry she now thinks I can’t handle stuff. I already work through things really fast and spend a lot of time doing nothing in between projects. She knows this and tries to find stuff for me to do. I’m a fast and good worker, and she’s had nothing but praise for me about it and in my first yearly review where I got a rare (she said, as it sounds like it’s people above her that decide the %) and significant raise.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I can understand why the manager may have been flustered, especially if they didn’t have a chance to confer with HR to get some guidance on how to respond. I think they were wondering why working from home would help to guess if 1 day may turn into 2 days that would turn into 5 days a week.
      The initial conversation may not have gone well, but since you were open about your problem, you can keep your manager informed about your health and hopefully your progress. After your first work from home day, I’d check in and say how well it worked (I’m hoping it will). I’m sure your boss is afraid that you will go on FLMA or quit entirely, so if you can keep them informed of any kind of progress, they can stop worrying.

      1. Chronically Depressed*

        That makes sense, especially since she did mention she knew it wasn’t FLMA but it was her first thought, and at some point she mentioned it would be good to have paperwork from my psychiatrist and psychologist if I ever need FLMA. I don’t plan to take FLMA, I can’t afford to for one thing! I’m hoping to move abroad in a few years and need to save up as much as possible, besides that I need to pay rent/food/etc (one of many reasons I want to move to this country is relating to my mental health and possible autism causing me to burn out with a regular 40 hour workweek, and living there would allow me to work less hours while still being able to afford to live. It’s one reason I struggled to explain some things, because I only have an informal diagnoses of autism from my psychiatrist so I can’t bring that up as a reason.) I only mentioned it to my boss first instead of HR because my boss wished I went to her first when I went to HR to talk about being trans (I’m nonbinary) and how to bring it up to my boss/how to ask for my pronouns to be used and respected. I think I am causing a lot of firsts at this company…

  36. Master Bean Counter*

    For those of you who were wondering Jane’s office did not get bombed for her birthday.

    In other news the CEO is taking away the work from home benefit. Not that anybody in our department does it on the regular. To us it’s been a nice perk to be able to be home when things need to be done and work at the same time. We’ve also used it instead of sick days on those days where we are probably germ ridden, or just not in good enough shape to be around other people, but we are well enough to actually work.
    Why? because his buddy that he brought with him to this company has been abusing the policy. Rather than talk to him about the issue, now none of us are officially allowed to work from home. My boss says, do it, just keep it on the down low.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Jane’s office: Yay! I did wonder.

      WFH: Boo! Another bad manager punishing everyone for his inability to manage one bad actor. Boo…

    2. PersistentCat*

      Awww, I’m glad ya’ll were respectful of Jane. Maybe she’ll be more open to participating next year, especially as she enjoys creating bday surprises for others.
      Lousy news on the WFH option, though

    3. ArtK*

      At a previous job, most of the senior people had company credit cards for travel, etc. We lost them because one executive was abusing it. This was someone who should have been fired for lots of other reasons, but was kept on for a long time.

  37. olusatrum*

    I have worked for a small, family owned company for about 6 months now. It’s a horrible, dysfunctional culture, but for various reasons I am stuck here for a bit. I’ve been doing my best to look out for myself here, but this one has me stumped.

    The IT manager, Fergus, is planning on getting a pet gecko for the office. I think this is a terrible idea. From the way he talks about it, and from my knowledge of him as a person, I really think he has no clue how to take care of a gecko. I really have no confidence in his ability to keep a gecko alive in this office, let alone safe and thriving. We are also packed in here like sardines, and the idea of listening to crickets all day already has me breaking out in a cold sweat. On a personal level, I feel like I’ve let a lot go in order to stay sane in this office, but I just can’t deal with the idea that I could be complicit in the mistreatment of an animal, no matter how small.

    There are a small handful of people at my level who agree with me, but somehow even the curmudgeonly owner has already approved it. We dissenters are all newish, kind of junior, and the owners place a lot of trust in Fergus for keeping our IT and helpdesk afloat. I’ve brought my concerns up to just about everyone I can think of, but we don’t even have HR. I tried the kindly CFO and he seemed sympathetic, so I really hope that goes somewhere, but if it doesn’t what can I do???

    1. Jamie*

      I have no answers, but I love that you and others there care about the gecko and it’s well being.

      What was the owner thinking?

    2. Spooooon!!*

      If the owner really wants one, there is probably not much you can do. I believe you that he would not be an ideal pet owner and your space isn’t set up for it, but maybe I can allay your fears a bit. I have a 17 year old leopard gecko. They are insanely easy to take care of. You don’t have to feed them crickets, either- they can eat mealworms or dubias, which are quiet and don’t smell, unlike crickets. I’m not saying it is still a good idea, but they are very easy (and fun and adorable) creatures.

    3. Forkeater*

      I think it’s a horrible idea, but I will say that we have a crested gecko at home, and she’s as easy to take care of as a plant. She doesn’t need a heater or light, and doesn’t even eat live crickets, she has a food with insects in it she prefers.

    5. JHunz*

      Honestly, while I can’t say whether it’s a good idea for your office and the people involved, a leopard gecko for example is an extremely low-maintenance animal. You keep the heat lamp plugged in and feed them every one to two days. You also don’t necessarily have to deal with cricket chirping – when my family had one we bought smaller crickets and fed the big ones first and only got to the adult stage on a batch a few times.

      1. Amethystmoon*

        You can feed adult leos mealworms. I had one for quite a few years. I would not give mealies to a juvenile however, as they could choke.

    6. LKW*

      I don’t think the crickets will be an issue. That noise is an “Anyone up for sex?” call. Running for your life in a relatively small enclosed space will minimize interest in reproduction.

      Unless they get loose. Then it’s open mike night at the comedy show.

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        Seriously. When I was a teen, the pet store next door to my dance studio tipped over a carton of crickets or something. Pandemonium.

  38. NicoleK*

    Any interview tips for when you’re interviewing with people you already work with? So our team consists of sales reps and retention reps. I’m currently a retention rep and applied for a sales rep position on my team. This would be a promotion. The interview process will consist of: 1st interview with my manager and 2nd interview with the entire team. Does anyone have any suggestions or tips? When I’m nervous, I tend to become more formal in my conversation and communication style. Normally, that wouldn’t be strange, but it may be in this context.
    TIA

    1. Lana Kane*

      In my experienced, I erred on the side of maybe more formal than some would expect, as opposed to acting too familiar. I’ve been on both sides of the table and those that are too familiar end up looking like they think the interview is just a formality. I think if it helps you stay even-keeled, do act the same as if you were interviewing externally. Your interviewers will also probably give you some cues on what level of familiarity is ok!

  39. Sleepy*

    I’ve been reading Allison’s recommendations for the “neutral, matter of fact tone” when addressing all sorts of issues, and I’m happy to say it really worked for me this week.

    I had a staff member who was using some outdated language when talking about some transgender clients during a meeting (the clients were not present). I didn’t think she was being intentionally disrespectful, so I took her aside and told her in a friendly, neutral tone that there’s some updated terminology people use nowadays that I wanted her to be aware of. I tried to treat it like any other facts I might share with someoneand was careful not to accuse her of anything. She was completely open to it and started using the more current terminology immediately. I thought about AAM a lot when thinking about how to approach the issue and the kind of tone I wanted to use, and it was incredibly helpful.

    1. CM*

      That’s great — it really does help when you can sound like you’re just sharing information and not criticizing.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Good for you for not jumping to the worst possible assumptions about you coworkers’ intentions. There’s an infinite amount of information available now, but everyone only has so much attention span to keep up with stuff. And if it’s not info you use daily, you get behind.

  40. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

    Kind of work related, but mostly personal… I’ve been in a funk all week, coming to work feeling grumpy and not able to place why. I want to take a mid-week day off, but…haven’t been able to. 

    The tiles in my office kitchen were broken so maintenance finally came and fixed them. It was supposed to be done throughout the night but there was a delay so all day on Tuesday, the area was blocked off. Tuesday into Wednesday and Thursday, we couldn’t step in that rectangle. 

    That rectangle — RIGHT in front of the fridge. Fair enough that it was blocked off–but in order to access it, you either have to lean very far forward to grab something fro the fridge or get in VERY close to it.  
    I was standing there trying to figure it out in my mind how I would get to the fridge without stepping IN the grid…because….I have physical issues. And my coworker who looks like freaking Prince Eric but can be a total asshat sometimes, says “it’s not rocket science” like…I’m an idiot for just standing there trying to figure it out in my head. I mean, I was already in a terrible mood that day because my balance and flexibility all suck and I’m in phys therapy for it. If I were in a better mood, I would’ve jokingly said something back, but…I wasn’t. 

    On the whole, my company is moving towards a more healthy stance..different activities, more variety of snacks, etc. Which…is nice! I didn’t hate what we did before, which was pretty much open bar and food but in the last year or so, we’ve had bowling, billiards (which also had like jenga ping pong darts etc), and field day. (of course there’s always food and alcohol there as well). In the office, we have healthier snacks alongside fruit. 
    Initially I hated the idea of bowling, but I’m starting to like all these different activities (so long as the food and alcohol remains LOL). I am more or less OK with these changes, I have my physical limitations but I dont’ have any issue with the company doing something a little different. It does give me pause that, in a company of 100, 10 people are like super active/athletic, who happen to be HR and like 2 of their favorite managers (there are definitely elements of favoritsm in different aspects company wide).  

    On another note, the “light activity” field day was strenuous and really physically stressful for me. I’ve openly posted in the weekend threads about my struggles with my own physical limitations, so I’ll save it, but I’m a little worried about our health insurance here and it suddenly becoming too expensive to afford because I’m so unhealthy. 

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Re the health insurance – there’s a decent chance that your company is actually part of a pool with lots of other companies. Which means you alone won’t have a big impact on the overall costs.
      It’s Friday. do something nice for yourself this weekend. Even if it’s just a relaxing bath.

    2. Evil HR Person*

      About the health insurance – even if your company is in it by itself, and it probably is because your company is big enough (same size as mine), your insurance has what’s called a stop-loss carrier. Basically, after a certain amount, it goes to another insurance and your company doesn’t get dinged. I was feeling bad myself, as I just had surgery which cost in excess of a quarter million dollars, but we only saw $40,000 come through… everything else was paid by the stop-loss carrier. It didn’t increase our premiums more than the usual (and everyone’s premiums are going up next year, an average of 7%). So don’t worry about that!

  41. Llama groomer 4 life*

    With the holiday season approaching I want to get a part time job to make some spending money but am having a hard time. All of my work experience is in a very specific field (think llama grooming) and while I’ve sold llama grooming supplies and worked with customers I definitely don’t have any retail experience. Plus my full time job means I have very limited schedule availability. I’d prefer not to do anything like uber for safety reasons. What have other people done? Any suggestions?

    2. Bunny Girl*

      So… obviously this depends on your personality and your values and what area you’re in and such, but when I had a limited schedule and needed some extra cash, I worked at an “adult” store. It was open 24 hours a day so I could basically pick whatever schedule I wanted, which is why I picked it, but it actually ended up being one of my favorite jobs. It was very laid back while still being professional. The customer base is not what you’d think at all, my coworkers were a blast and a half, and honestly we had some good stories to share. It might not be everyone’s tastes, but it was great for a job with a flexible schedule if you have the personality for it. Plus if you don’t want it on your resume, its a seasonal job and you don’t have to put it there.

    3. littlelizard*

      If there’s anything seasonal popping up around you (think like, Spirit but for Christmas), they’re likely to have a less rigid standard of who to hire since it’s not for a very long time. And it’s late for this year, but if this is a situation you’re likely to be looking for in the future, Spirit has been really good for temporary retail work in my experience.

    4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I tried to do this years ago, and the way retail business schedule now (they want wide open availability, but won’t guarantee you specific shifts or number of hours) basically meant I couldn’t get a part-time job at most of the big retail chains near me. It wasn’t worth the risk to my main job.

    5. JB*

      I know you said not Uber – but something like Postmates might work. No one is getting in your car and you can technically do it with other people, if you want the company! My boyfriend and I do it after work together and on weekends sometimes when we’re just killing time and it’s a nice way to make some extra money while finding new restaurants we want to try and being able to talk.

    6. Patty Mayonnaise*

      This is somewhat specific to my city so not sure if it’s helpful, but here there are yearly Christmas markets that stay open pretty late in the evenings to catch the after-work shopping crowd. One of my friends worked there in the evenings after work and on weekends – it worked out well for her. If you can find something similar, it might be a good fit.

  42. Lara*

    I briefly looked through some of the more recent AAM and didn’t see anything so if this is addressed in an older post I apologize, but what is the protocol for inviting coworkers or bosses to a baby shower? I’ve just started compiling the guest list and there are a few coworkers I’d like to invite but others I’m less interested in extending invitations. I wouldn’t mind inviting my boss, although I don’t really know what the boundaries are for something like that since we aren’t peers.

    1. Jamie*

      I’m old school and still follow the custom where other people throw showers, not the recipient.

      I would see any invitation to a shower from someone with whom I wasn’t very close outside of work as a gift grab. I am cynical and hate parties, but since showers are inherently occasions where the point is the gifts I’d keep it out of work entirely and certainly not your boss.

      1. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

        Other people throw them but in my experience they usually ask the guest of honor whom to invite, because your bridge club friend who’s hosting doesn’t know which rugby teammates you’re close with.

        But I agree that you shouldn’t invite work people unless you’re quite close with them, so probably not your boss (I think my rule of thumb here is that you shouldn’t be shower-invitation-close with your boss, and if a peer isn’t too close to manage you, they’re not close enough to invite). Unless it’s a shower at work, in which it should be the whole department/team.

      2. Lara*

        Oh, I’m not the one throwing it! I was just asked for a list of people because the host is coming into town for it. But I think I agree about that, and I probably won’t send one to anyone outside of the two I actually really want there.

      3. Bunny Girl*

        I will have to agree with this. When I get shower invites from people I’m not particularly close to, I think of it as a gift grab too. I think if you don’t actively hang out with certain coworkers outside of work, you might not want to invite them. If you do have coworkers you see socially outside of work, I think it’s fine to invite them, but I wouldn’t discuss it in the office and would make sure to send the invite through non-work communications. And it depends on how many people you’re talking about. If it’s 1-2 people within your large team, go for it. If it’s 75% of your small team, I think it’s all or nothing time.

    2. zora*

      I personally wouldn’t invite bosses or coworkers to a shower outside of work unless they are a super close person I hang out with regularly outside of the office already.

      Instead, can you talk to someone in the office about a work shower? We automatically do them in our company, but if you don’t, you could still probably get an admin or a work friend to help organize? We do them as no gift showers, instead it’s a little get together for everyone to celebrate the parent, which it nicer for coworkers because no one feels obligated to spend their own money. Instead, the company buys one smallish gift ($50-60), and everyone signs a card, and we order in some lunch or treats and just spend a half hour chatting and being social.

      But that’s just how I would feel about it if it was me.

    3. CheeryO*

      I don’t think there is any accepted protocol, but my office typically does baby showers at work and invites all of the women (maybe like 30 people, max). It’s very low pressure, but surprisingly there are a lot of people out there who REALLY like spending money on baby stuff and eating potluck food, even if they’re not super close with the honoree.

      I think any time you invite a portion of your coworkers to an event outside of work, you’re asking for drama. I wouldn’t do it, personally, unless you can draw a bright line that makes sense and won’t offend anyone.

      1. zora*

        Only inviting the women is asking for trouble. It’s discriminating. If i worked there, I would suggest opening up showers to all coworkers and making sure everyone knows buying gifts is super super optional, but only inviting one gender is not good.

          1. zora*

            There’s a difference between men choosing not to attend and not inviting the men.

            Just because it’s the way a lot of offices have done it for a long time does not mean it’s okay. It is literally discrimination and it’s not good to let that be your way of operating in an office. If you don’t invite everyone, then don’t have that activity.

      2. Jamie*

        who REALLY like spending money on baby stuff

        I love buying baby stuff and will do for even tertiary connections because it’s fun and I don’t want to demand people close to me reproduce just so I can squee over baby things.

    4. WellRed*

      I would assume your workplace might throw you a shower but even if they don’t, I wouldn’t invite coworkers to family or friends shower and certainly not the boss

  43. Reba*

    Huge professional disappointment today. Half an hour ago I learned that the project I’m leading, which would go live next summer, is just not going to happen. Our partner (in another country) has just pulled out, not sure if it’s a good use of their money, despite the commitment they made and all the commitments we, and I personally, made on their behalf. I’m really angry and sad. It was a fantastic opportunity for several dozen people to travel and I’ll need to start telling them “nevermind!” on Monday.

    The question for y’all… I have interns and a professional fellow in the office. We are a non-profit cultural organization, and these are unpaid or very-minimally-paid young professionals, so we believe very much in making it a valuable learning experience for them.

    What do I do with them? I’m going to spend the weekend thinking about what could be, like, appealing consolation prize projects. I just feel like the rug has totally been pulled out from under me and I’m not sure how to talk with them about it.

    My own superviser, whom I trust and like, is out of the country, although we are in touch.

    Ugh. I’ve cried a lot already so it’s lucky I’m not in the office today.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I’m sorry; how disappointing. And it will no doubt disappoint your staff too, but you know how you said you want to make this a valuable learning experience? This is in itself a valuable learning experience. I don’t mean “don’t bother to find them anything else to do,” but make the fact that this project isn’t going forward into a teachable moment of its own–that sometimes this happens, it’s part of the landscape that not everything makes it to fruition, and you learn from what happened and fail forward. Absolutely be disappointed and let them be disappointed, but put that disappointment in a broader context about the field and learning.

        1. Drew*

          Also, this is a chance to reinforce that THEY were doing a good job and this doesn’t reflect on them in any way. When you’re working with other companies, sometimes things don’t work out even when you’re putting in your very best effort.

  44. Weegie*

    An appeal for advice/thoughts/commiserations if anyone can spare them!

    I’ve been in my Unicorn Dream Job for a couple of years, but it’s changed lately. The job involves 4 types of task – Tasks 1&2 are what I’ve been doing for large parts of my working life, I’m good at them, enjoy them, and they’re why I was put on this earth; Task 3 involves something I’ve learned over time, and I enjoy it too; Task 4 has been a minor part of my role, was a job I previously had to do for 5 years (because UDJs do not abound), is easy, and I loathe it but am prepared to tolerate it as a small part of an idyllically (is that a word?) perfect work package.

    The issue: lately Task 4 has taken over my job (someone else is likely to get Tasks 1-3!), and it will continue like that until we reach a major deadline in 6 months’ time. After that things will return to normal – although my contract is also due to end shortly afterwards. Worse than the work itself is that the task brings me into contact with Bad Janet, an admin who is condescending, overbearing and focused on all the wrong things. Overall, Task 4 makes me anxious, fed up, and robs me of motivation – I will do anything to delay starting it each day, and end up doing everything last-minute and feeling guilty about it. (It does get done, though, and people are pleased with my work.)

    So far my strategies are: to shift my work site from my sofa to my home office (I work from home mostly and the office feels more serious than my sofa); make Bad Janet communicate with Good Janet, who runs interference for me; and try bribing myself with the promise of 30 minutes of fun activities if only I will *sit down and my desk and get on with it*! The first has had some success; the last not at all; the second was pure genius and works like a charm.

    Any other suggestions? I know this will end next year, but I can’t stand the thought of being miserable until then. What do other people do to motivate themselves when they just don’t want to do their work? I’m frittering away time that could be spent on doing enjoyable things once the work is done.

      1. Weegie*

        Regrettably not – I’m the only one in post with the required knowledge. When someone is brought in to take the good work off my shoulders I’m hoping I might be able to train them on some aspects of Task 4 so that we can share the work a bit more equitably, but realistically as the higher-ups (wrongly) think I’m the only one who can get the job done, I’ll probably encounter some resistance.

        1. Colette*

          Does your management know that you don’t like task 4? Sometimes if they are aware, they’ll be open to other options.

          But assuming you are stuck with task 4, you can try:
          – reminding yourself that you don’t like it but that it is for a short(ish) period of time and then things will change (but if you do this, make sure your manager knows you want to do something different so that you don’t get stuck with it forever)
          – making it the first thing you do every day, and rewarding yourself when it’s done with a task you like, or a break or whatever makes sense for you (this is my job-hunting strategy since I hate applying for jobs)
          – reminding yourself that you don’t have to stay in the job if you don’t want to (and that you are making a deliberate decision to do it because you like working from home/don’t want to job hunt/get paid more on this job that you would on another job)

  45. Kimmy Schmidt*

    I am about to chair a search committee for the first time. I’m in higher ed.
    Any tips or suggestions for any part of this process? Organizational strategies to not lose my mind, the most challenging parts of this, things to looks for in the interviews, how to conduct myself, etc.

    Any tips would be much appreciated. I currently feel a little out of my depth.

    1. Gidget*

      I don’t know if my advice will be super helpful as I have never chaired a committee, but I have served on one. I think one thing that was helpful was having a pre-application review meeting where everyone got on the same page and we were assigned applications to look at. Depending on the number of applicants you expect/receive you may have to do your initial screening differently. When I was on a committee we only had about 20 applicants. So everyone on the committee read all applications and we met again to narrow down numbers. A friend of mine served on a committee that received 100+ applications. In their case they divided that up and did an initial culling, with each committee member bringing there 5 favorite (or something like that) and then had all members read over the applications.

      Spreadsheets will help for initial rankings. I did not take part in any one-on-one interviews, (I was just a grad student) but I and other committee members were encouraged to attend all lectures, chalk-talks, etc. The committee also took candidates out to dinner, conversations had at dinner were definitely discussed in committee meetings. Also, if you are soliciting feedback from graduate/undergraduate students make sure you actually consider their feedback.

      I am sure that some of your committee members will have done searches before, they might have an idea of what worked well. I hope some of this was helpful.

      Good luck!

      1. Long-time AMA Lurker*

        Yep, I would give everyone parameters to review with, and definitely assign them to pick 5 “I HAVE to talk to this person” selections – in all likelihood, certain folks will float to the top. I would also use a basic scoring rubric and have everyone send you their scores before your next huddle so you can show the team the averages. Could help eliminate a few people off the bat. Good luck!

    2. blackcat*

      I’ve been on two committees for instructors (FT, not TT). Ad Gidget said, it depends on the number of applicants. The searches I’ve been a part of have had a lot. We did an initial pass with a point system, using agreed upon qualifications: 5 was “Top” 4 was meeting all qualifications but somehow not top OR seems great but missing one qualification. 1-3 were various levels of “nope, not qualified.” For one committee that I liked, all applications were looked at by 2 people. We divided applications into 4 stacks, I got stacks 1 and 3, someone else got 1 and 2, a third person 2 and 4, and a the 4th person 3 and 4. We entered things into spreadsheets that were shared once we were all done. Any candidate that was 1-3 from both raters was put on the “no” list. Any candidate rated and 4 or 5 by both was put on the “definitely first round interview” list (with up to 12 first round interviews), and ones that straddled the gap were discussed until we rounded out the “definitely interview” list. We kept written records of all of this per HR rules.

      As for interviewing: make sure to accurately portray the job to candidates, and really read the materials of the people you interview closely. It shows with the committee hasn’t read the materials. On the other hand, on one of my campus interviews, a dean asked a question that showed he *really* read my materials, and that gave me a really good impression.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        This is great advice, thank you!
        I work for a smaller, more rural institution, so we likely won’t have a huge volume of applicants. But this is a great plan to have in place that could be adjusted for smaller or larger numbers as needed.

        1. blackcat*

          HR/Equal opportunity office rules say applications need to be screened by at least two people. I think it’s a good practice.

          I generally look at CV and then a *very* cursory look at the other files. Half or more applications are generally a 1 or 2, from grad students and post-docs with zero experience as an instructor of record, which is apparent from a CV and a disqualification on our metrics (but maybe not from yours). And it takes maybe 2 minutes per applicant to determine if they meet that minimal bar.

          And then half of the ones who we would do skype/zoom interviews break what I consider the basic rule of academic interviewing: don’t be an asshole. Having done the first-round interview multiple times on both sides, the big thing is to plan for fewer questions and allow follow ups. If you end up going under time, the candidate should have enough questions to fill that gap. If they don’t, I take that as a red flag.

          I am on the job market *yet again* and for my upcoming first round interview, I have 6 questions that I’d like to have answers to, but I know I’ll maybe get to ask 1. And definitely make sure that there’s time for your candidate to ask one! Even if it means going 2-3 minutes over.

    3. Academia Escapee*

      Having been an admin on many higher ed search committees, I will tell you that scheduling was our biggest obstacle. At your next meeting, be sure to nail down dates and times when EVERYONE will be available for interviews, and block out everyone’s calendars. That way the time is sitting there when you have candidates to interview. It’s incredibly frustrating to whittle down the applications to a manageable number of interviews only to find that nothing can be scheduled until 4 weeks out because of conflicting calendars.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        Ooooh yes, this is a great point. I will make sure to schedule as many meetings out as we can.

    4. higher ed hiring*

      The first meeting is to make sure we are all on the same page with the job description and priority, our committee members are required to read all of the CVs and cover letter. (we had over 100 applicants) As chair, I create a rubric on a spread sheet that includes required (degrees and experience) and preferred. Each committee member ranks the applicant one to five then submits their top five to the chair. The second meeting is coming up with the 5 to 6 for a preliminary Skype interview. Three will be invited to come to campus for an on site interview, job talk, meet the department marathon.
      Second, put all meetings and interviews on the calendar now.

    5. Reliquary*

      Finally, a question directly in my wheelhouse! :)
      1) Search calendar. Make one with dates for all the important parts of the process, and make sure you schedule up-front the meetings that will need all the committee members in attendance. Share this calendar (or even create the calendar) with your administrative assistant.
      2) Candidate evaluation rubric. Ideally, make it when you’re writing the ad. I love the format at this link, because it enables weighting, and (literally) values diversity.
      https://advance.uncc.edu/sites/advance.uncc.edu/files/media/198998.pdf

      Best practices:
      (a) conduct preliminary interviews via Skype/Zoom. Conference interviews are prohibitive for many (grad students, scholars from abroad, etc.).
      (b) prepare for questions from both applicants and recommenders, and deal with them all even-handedly. Create a cut-and-paste document with responses that you use over and over.
      (c) don’t reinvent the wheel. Google for examples of things you’ll need. I initially found that rubric online, and I have since modified it to fit a few searches.

  46. Lieutenant Jingles*

    Hey guys, am kinda curious… For those people who have resigned, what is your last week at work like?

    I have sorted through my files and archived everything important, but am now pretty much twiddling my thumbs waiting for my official last day… My boss had explicitly prohibited me from doing any work, requesting instead I limit myself only to handing over work to my colleagues, which I had finished.

    Am kinda wondering if I should be doing anything else other than archiving files, sending people instructions and drafting my goodbye notes?

    1. londonedit*

      I think a fair amount of thumb-twiddling is normal. As you say, you can’t start anything new, so once you’ve done all the handover stuff you really are just there counting down the days/hours/minutes and making sure you’ve organised everything you need to.

      Occasionally my last week or two has overlapped with the start date for whoever’s replacing me, and in that case there will be meetings with them, and you’ll be acting as a bit of a sounding board for any questions they might have before you leave, but otherwise if your boss doesn’t want you doing any work and your handover notes are all done, there really isn’t a lot you can do except tidying and packing up.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        +1

        Can you think of anything that you have been responsible for that hasn’t come in the handover period? Documentation for that will be even more important.

        Even if it’s “the holiday decorations are in the second cabinet on the fourth floor outside Fergus’s office, and the key is in the kitchen drawer labelled ARMADILLO”.

        1. Ama*

          When I left my last job, I literally made a list of the tracking spreadsheets I had made, not just where to find them but what I used them for, what the color coding meant, everything.

          Also if you’ve finished documenting and know who is covering for you, have those people read the documentation and let you know if they have any questions now, while you are still around to answer them.

    3. Coworker that brought muffins*

      Once you organized your documents and did your handoffs, twiddling your thumbs is pretty par for the course. I got bored and started doing more general office work like emptying the shredder, cleaning my desk with cleanser and paper towels (clean out that keyboard for the next person!), helping organize the supply closet (but if they’re worried about you stealing maybe don’t do that one).

    4. Lygeia*

      If there are any processes you could document for a future person in the role, that’s always helpful. Or going through what documentation already exists and updating/polishing it.

      1. Lieutenant Jingles*

        Thanks guys. I feel a bit more assured now… the most important thing now will be for me to make sure the documentation and handover is fine. I am having a bit of trouble NOT doing work, but ensuring the handover staff knows how to do things is more important.

    5. Mama Bear*

      It depends on the job. I try to document what needs documenting, train anyone who needs training, let someone else know where all the bodies are buried, etc. My last job I finished a deliverable and went to lunch with my team, but my manager (who was the reason I left) did not want to do any of the usual transfer of tasks so I kind of just packed up and left. Not doing more work is weird if it can be completed before you go, but if that’s all the boss wants, I’d be happy enough not to take on a new task.

  47. Not a Real Giraffe*

    We occasionally hold movie nights as an office social activity, where we rent out a small theater and bring in popcorn, pizza, candy, etc. My boss (our CEO) hosts this and thus, choosing the movie and the overall theme of the evening.

    My boss is an older white man who is not particularly woke and finds all the “PC Culture” stuff to be a huge annoyance. The movie he has chosen for the next movie night is Annie Hall. I have not seen it, but I read the plot summary online and have some concerns beyond the fact that it’s a Woody Allen film.

    Before I voice my concerns, can others who have seen the movie please weigh in and tell me if you find it to be a film appropriate to watch among coworkers?

    1. Jamie*

      I haven’t seen the movie, but IMO just being a Woody Allen film would make sitting it out perfectly understandable.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      The film is perfectly appropriate to watch among coworkers, who are all presumably adults. It was rated PG when released. Content-wise, you’re golden. Woody Allen-wise, there are plenty of people who would avoid the film solely because it is a Woody Allen work.

    3. Fiona*

      Plotwise, I think it’s mostly an appropriate movie to watch among coworkers – nothing too explicit and it’s funny and complex and (unfortunately) one of my favorite movies. But to be quasi-forced to watch a whole movie starring Woody Allen? That would legitimately cause a lot of people discomfort and I think it’s more than fair to object to it. Maybe some commenters have some good language on how to object in an effective way. (Perhaps a standard royal “we” as in – “we wouldn’t want people to be uncomfortable” given the controversy around him)

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Oh yes, I have no issue with raising with raising my Woody Allen-related concerns (and in fact he already knows this will be problematic but has decided he does not care). I just needed to know if I should flag any other plot-related concerns!

        1. Fiona*

          Oh gotcha! Plotwise, nothing stands out. Good luck with your boss – sounds like an uphill battle but I’m sure some colleagues will be grateful that you’re raising this issue.

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      Ick. Woody Allen. No thanks. I have always found all of his movies to have creepy interaction between himself and women (even before any allegations about him came to light.) It’s probably not inappropriate per se, but it’s certainly more controversial than I think an office movie outing should be.

    5. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

      It is actually a really good movie, and the themes and everything are fine, as far as I’m concerned.

      But yeah. Woody Allen. Ugh.

    6. Aphrodite*

      I love it! True, it’s a Woody Allen film with all the moral dilemmas that involves, but it is a wonderfully open look at complexities in a relationship. And I admit I have difficulties with Allen; for years after the affair came to light I refused to see his films but, damnit, he makes good ones.

    7. Patty Mayonnaise*

      Hmm. The movie is PG but I think today it could possibly be a PG-13. There are some pretty frank discussions about sex – would that fly with your boss? I think it really depends on how conservative the office is. If your office watches PG-13 movies than it’s fine, but if it was chosen just because it’s PG, it might be worth bringing up your concerns.

      1. Eeeek*

        Yeah it’s pretty sexual. Jokes about oral sex, shows people in bed together in underwear. Nothing absolutely scandalous but I wouldn’t want to watch it with co workers lol

  48. Vermonter*

    What’s a professional way to explain that you’re struggling with something – and it’s not going to get better, because you physically can’t do it? I don’t want to sound defensive, but my boss brought up that I’ve been doing a poor job of [thing]. I should’ve been proactive and mentioned that I can’t do [thing] before it became a problem, but I didn’t. So now what?

    I’m in diagnostic limbo, so I don’t have a doctor’s note yet. I was hoping I could keep my head above water but I won’t get in to see a specialist for a few months and it’s already a problem now.

    1. Auntie Social*

      “I have limited mobility which means I can’t do X/reach Y/lift Z/I tire easily. I’m sorry that I didn’t bring it up before now, but I wanted to have a doctor’s note.”

    2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Tell the boss just like what you said in the beginning of your letter. Calmly explain to him that the reason for your poor (using that in quotes) performance on Task A is because you Physically are not able to do it. Explain that you have a diagnosed medical condition that prevents you from performing the task. Tell him that you are seeing a doctor for the condition and if needed will soon be able to provide a doctor’s note.

    3. Undine*

      “I believe this is due to a medical condition, and I am trying to pin down what’s going on. I’ve spoken to my primary physician and she’s referred me to a specialist, but I won’t be able to get an appointment for a few months. Can we assign someone else this duty, at least for now?”

    4. Me*

      Not having a formal diagnosis doesn’t preclude a doctors note. Your employer doesn’t need to know what that is anyway, they merely need to know that you have an issue that needs accommodation.

      Your primary care or whoever you saw before the referral to the specialist should be able to write you a note indicating you are under a doctors care and have x restrictions until further notice.

  49. E. Shellstrop*

    Can I just say, I am astounded by the amount of time my co-workers spend noticing and complaining about their fellow employees. Who’s doing what, who left early and why, etc. Drives me bonkers. Anyone else see this a lot??

    1. Jamie*

      I just had to address this with someone this week. Eyes on your own paper…if you see someone violating a rule or (especially) a safety issue report it but stop trying to turn this place into Eastham prison circa 1930.

    2. Can't Sit Still*

      My co-workers are major over-sharers about their time off and when they are late or working from home. I get all the updates on their personal lives via email and I really wish they would not. At this point, I almost want to see pictures of those bathroom and kitchen renos, and test results for that 24-hour urine collection (why would you tell your co-workers that?!) and the sleep study, just because. I also don’t care that if they have to let their dogs out and yet…

      So, the opposite is pretty obnoxious, too, although less annoying. At least everyone knows where they are and what they’re doing. Whether we want to or not.

      1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

        Bingo! That’s it exactly.

        The folks here who are unhappy are constantly complaining -to me-about other employee’s actions.
        I’m not the manager. It is exhausting.

    4. complainers*

      Yeah i really do… it can be jarring to those of us not accustomed to that sort of thing. And, 9/10 the things I hear are just wrong. That doesn’t stop people from doing it though.

    5. Rebecca*

      Here too. I sit at my desk, take the allotted breaks and unpaid lunch break, do my stuff…but…the problem is management. We’re stretched very thin work wise, no wiggle room if someone is out sick or takes vacation time, and we have a small contingent of people who aren’t pulling their weight. It’s not my problem, it’s management’s issue to resolve, but they don’t. When some of your non-exempt direct reports are literally sleeping at their desks and not clocking out to do so, that’s an issue that probably should be addressed. And yes, the complaining – my reply is always, did you address this with our manager?

      Actually, I think 90% of the problems we see here on AAM can be traced back to poor management.

    6. Penny*

      Oh dear lord I have been there.

      Funny thing was that the office busybodies/complainers were the people who were chronically late (in a position where butts in seats at a specific time was important/affected other people) and wandering around not doing their own work. When they finally complained to the boss that they had an unfairly heavy workload, the boss looked at numbers and productivity and determined that the rest of us had about a 50% higher workload/output, and adjusted work accordingly. It was amazing.

  50. Potato Girl*

    I am so very tired of being female, and of people who claim to be “totally not misogynist” but their unconscious bias says otherwise. When my peer Eren is on the phone, I can tell the other person’s gender by the tone of Eren’s voice. We get along great, as long as I act ladylike (using a melodic voice and a higher pitch, smiling throughout our interactions, deferring to him, saying he’s better at something than I am, not talking about my accomplishments). The second I talk about something I’ve done that I’m excited about/proud of, he goes back to being competitive, chilly, and bossy. But there’s nothing outright sexist going on, just unconscious bias. It’s clear from other signs that his goal is to be promoted over me (we were hired about the same time). And he clearly tries to take control of every situation, and is much better at acting important than I am, and I just don’t know how to do those things without being a b-word. I hate, hate, hate being female.

      1. Potato Girl*

        Written down it seems obvious (and I keep these sort of stories in a note on my personal phone, partly in case I need evidence later and partly as self-defense against possible gaslighting)… but IRL it’s so subtle. Unfortunately I short myself in the foot a few months ago when he he-peated me in front of our manager (I made a statement, he fact-checked me and made the same statement as if it were his own original thought). So I said, “That’s what I just said!” and gave my manager a see-this-is-what-I-mean look. I’ve since learned that the appropriate response is, “Yes, thank you for agreeing with me.” I’d previously mentioned these things to our manager, who took my concerns seriously, so at least there’s that. Trying to be competitive/not seem weak just takes up so much brainspace that I need for my cognitively-demanding job.

        1. CheeryO*

          Reading between the lines, I think your manager may have thought it was rude or unprofessional when you said “That’s what I just said!” I’d argue that there is plenty of gray area between that and “Yes, thank you.” Maybe practice some different scripts that are assertive without being aggressive (which is a bad look, regardless of gender). Something like, “Right, as I said, [statement using your original wording].” Confident, breezy tone, then move on.

          Also, this is just me, but I try not to frame this kind of thing as competing. I would hope that if you’re competent and professional, your work will speak for itself. I think the play is to rise above it, as long as your manager takes you seriously and this guy doesn’t have any authority over you.

    2. Princesa Zelda*

      How much do you need him to like you? It sounds like he’s a peer and not a boss or superior? You’re almost certainly better off being your own badass self and letting him be a big baby about it. It isn’t your job to tend to his emotions like a garden, it’s his.

      1. Potato Girl*

        Hah, tending other people’s emotions like a garden is an awesome way of putting it. I don’t act ladylike toward him all the time, that was just a week-long social experiment I did to see what would happen. I was both disappointed and not surprised.

    3. Nicki Name*

      How about hating that you work with a misogynist? Is there any chance of raising this issue with your boss or HR?

      BTW, love the AoT references!

      1. Potato Girl*

        I’ve talked about it with my boss, who looped in HR and discussed it with Eren. But he can’t be around us all the time, and “Eren’s voice is different when he talks on the phone to men vs. to women” just sounds so petty and whiny.

        1. M*

          It’s not necessarily whiny. If he’s talking to clients/coworkers/vendors/I mean really *any*one the company cares about maintaining a relationship with, what you’re describing is something that’s an actual *issue*. If other parties are noticing (and they *will* notice, if they have regular interactions with him) that they’re being treated differently on the basis of their gender, that’s a terrible look. And if his voice changes, it’s pretty likely his behaviour does too – is he more resistant to negotiating terms/work arrangements with women? Is he dismissive of feedback from female clients/coworkers/etc?

          I wouldn’t raise it with your manager as a complaint, but I would raise it as a *concern*. i.e., something like “I’ve spoken to you before about how Eren treats people differently on the basis of their gender. I want to put aside how that affects me for the moment – you’ve been supportive, which I appreciate – but there’s a separate aspect I wouldn’t feel comfortable not raising with you. I’m worried that the very stark difference in how he behaves is also noticeable to [coworkers/clients/whatever’s relevant to his role]. For example, when Sansa from [department/other company] kept trying to talk to him about changing the deadline for [project], he completely dismissed her concerns until she looped in Jon. I feel like you should know about [other examples], because I’m worried its affecting how our company/team is viewed by our external partners/other departments/etc.”

    4. CheeryO*

      Ugh, gross. I’d probably just roll my eyes over the posturing, but pleeeease don’t change the way you speak or behave just to tiptoe around his fragile ego. If he thinks that anything other than complete deference is bitchiness, then maybe he deserves a little bitchiness in his life.

    5. A Girl Has No Name*

      I say stop going along to get along. His behavior is not something you can change, but by being “ladylike” I think it enforces his bad behavior.

      You say he’s better at acting important. You can be better at actually being important, i.e. doing the best possible work that you can. If the upper management is any good, they will see through his acting and see your substance.

      As a female person, I sympathize, but please don’t let his behavior influence your feelings of self worth.

    6. JessicaTate*

      My advice, from experience: 1) Stop worrying about being a (perceived) bitch. Being professional, having self-respect, and simply trying to get things done while treating your colleagues with respect (but not deference) is not actually being a bitch. As one of my employees, many years ago, said to me when I expressed concern that I’d been “kind of a bitch” in a meeting because I was trying to rein in some chaos with a few firm words: “We all love that you’re a bitch. Please don’t stop being a bitch. Didn’t you hear, bitches get things done.” [And watch the old SNL clip with Tina/Amy of that name. It’s a balm to my soul.]

      2) Related, I hear you saying that he is “much better at acting important,” and that if you behaved the way he does to self-promote, it would feel bitchy. You should not self-promote in the way that he does; because he’s being a jerk. But you should not be a wallflower. Your task is to keep professionally demonstrating your competence, accomplishments, ideas, and asserting yourself with your boss and colleagues in ways that are natural and contributing. It’s hard if you’ve been socialized that it’s not polite/whatever to have any pride in what you do at all. (Do you have trouble accepting a compliment, for example? I do! I’ve worked hard to learn to just say, “Thank you” to that.) When the little voice pops up in your head to try to pull you back from asserting yourself, sharing an accomplishment, whatever: recognize it and process it. You can’t stop it from coming, but you can remind your little voice that it’s spouting a bunch of BS that sounds a lot like Eren.

      3) Speaking of Eren: Stop worrying about what this self-involved child thinks. It’s hard. We’ve been trained our whole lives to worry about what people are feeling and thinking about you. But it’s important. Eren has his deep well of insecurity; let him swim in that well all he wants. Try not to let your frustration get the better of you outwardly. I like to remind myself that being cool-as-a-cucumber when I put an Eren in his place usually irritates him far more than if he was able to get a rise out of me.

      4) Keep reflecting on how, concretely, he’s speaking and behaving toward women that is different than men. I suspect it’s more than tone? Word choices? (Not) asking questions? This is a legit unconscious sexist thing that happens ALL the time. It can be hard to name, but if you can suss out specifics in how he’s treating men and women differently it’s helpful for communicating to others — and even to the guy if he’s someone who’s interested in being self-reflective and doing better. Not an Eren, but there are others (men and women) who want to do better when they can.

      I’m not saying it’s easy. I’m not saying there isn’t blowback sometimes, particularly if it’s a person in a power position who has the bias. But it’s worth practicing all of these things, because it’s a life skill. And the more of us who shake off the ingrained, sexist BS, the faster I think we’ll eventually get to change. Good luck. I have faith in you.

      1. Jessica Fletcher*

        +1000000 on all of this.
        I recommend a book I recently read called “How Women Rise” — it identifies some habits that often hold women back at work, and gives tips on how to break these habits (without becoming a b-word). Related to JessicaTate’s #2 above, the first habit is “Reluctance to Claim your Achievements” — claiming and honoring your own worth can be difficult, but once you start to flex that muscle even a little more, it is empowering.

      2. Potato Girl*

        Wow, thanks, that’s all really useful. You’re right on that conditioning is part of why this situation is so difficult. I was taught “don’t toot your own horn,” and that it’s polite to say “thank you” to a compliment but also don’t take it seriously/let it go to my head. And the importance of “don’t get too big for your britches.” It sounds like now that I’m in a mid-level position I’ll need to do some reconditioning. I really appreciate the practical advice for where to start.

    7. LilySparrow*

      Please don’t internalize his misogyny. I know we’re socialized to blame ourselves for other people’s bad behavior, but there is truly no point to hating being female because of people like Eren.

      If Eren is the kind of asshole who expects women to act “ladylike” and gets pissy when they aren’t, then I guarantee he treats people of other races badly when they get “uppity,” and people of his same gender/race badly based on anything he can find to make him feel one-up and them feel one-down.

      Should they all hate their race, etc? Of course not.

      Screw Eren and all his ilk. Love yourself and kick ass at work.

  51. merp*

    To all the librarians in the room, what are some good stock phrases for slowing down oversharing patrons? I’m in gov docs and the other day I got a whole bunch of detailed childhood abuse stories from someone who needs to look up their birth records, and it just kind of shocked me into silence. I got in a couple of “you don’t need to share all of that” but it went unheard.

    1. Casual Librarian*

      “Wow! You certainly have a lot going on. Let’s get you your information so you can get going.”
      “I have a meeting/phonecall/emergency that I need to get to, so let’s get you those birth records”
      “I’m sorry to hear all of that. I can point you to some community resources, but I really do need to get back to this project.” (This is very public library-y)

      There’s also the classic *don’t respond and type vigorously while letting them prattle on*

      And there’s a google extension that you can set up to call your phone and have a fake conversation with you; this allows a very easy exit and is helpful in more than library situations.

      Good luck!

    2. Librarian In the Academy*

      I get a lot of genealogists wanting to share their family histories with me. (I’m a genealogist too, so I understand the desire to share!) Anyway, when I don’t have time to listen, I will say, “Excuse me for a minute.” to stop them. Then do something having to do with my job, i.e., give a student an instruction, or some other small task. Then I go back to the patron, and say something like, “What is your reference question today?” or “What are you looking for today?” Basically, it stops them from going on, and then resets the interaction.

    3. Blueberry Girl*

      My trick is to listen for a few minutes, wait for a pause and then say, “That all sounds (WHATEVER). How can I help you today?”

      Or “If you can give me a moment, I’ll look up those records for you.”

      Sometimes though, and this is mostly a public library thing I think, people just need to talk. Not wanting to deal with that is one of the reasons I avoided public librarianship after working in one for a year. I learned I wasn’t good a dealing with the child abuse/horrible marriage/prison stories. I took way to much of that stuff home with me.

      1. merp*

        That’s a good point, and it doesn’t happen too often to me really – we’re a government library so much quieter than a lot of public libraries – I mostly just hope he didn’t feel like he needed to share all of that with me! And yes, it was also a bit disturbing, but more than that, I just am looking for ways to redirect to things I can help with so people don’t feel like they have to share private info with me to get their question answered. Appreciate your input, I’ll use them for sure!

        1. MoopySwarpet*

          Could you stop a person (or wait for a pause) and say “Oh, don’t worry, we don’t need to know all the background details. I just need XYZ to look it up for you.”

  52. Chronic Illness at Work - Help!*

    I have been having issues for about a year now. I am seeing a specialist and we are slowly working through various treatments. No diagnosis yet, but it’s down to RA or lupus. However, I’m having severe issues at work. This morning, I couldn’t figure out how to plug my laptop in (that was a fun call with IT!) and I have been getting feedback that my emails are unclear (and they are unclear to me, too, when I reread them) for months now.

    I’m in constant pain, so I don’t know if that is the pain problem with my cognitive difficulties. I’m flat out having trouble with the activities of daily living, too.

    I also never get any real time off – I have to be available to my boss 24/7. When she’s traveling (about 50% of the time), she calls, texts and emails me at all hours. Even on my vacation, I have to respond. I am non-exempt, so I get paid for my time, but I never get to rest. Stress makes my condition worse as does inadequate rest.

    I’m exhausted and in pain all the time and the worse I get, the more intense my boss gets. She doesn’t mean to, but her husband is terminally ill, her mother is also slowly dying from multiple strokes and I (her EA) have a chronic, debilitating illness, and our company is going through a major transition while she takes on more responsibilities and she will be traveling even more now.

    1. Jamie*

      I feel for your boss that she’s in a very stressful time in her personal life, but the answer to that isn’t to demand you sacrifice yourself for her.

      You need downtime, everyone does. You need reasonable hours and the ability to care for yourself physically. Not being on call 24/7 should have to be an accommodation, but could you get your doctor to specify that? That’s the most reasonable of accommodations and she can’t legally push back on that and win.

      1. Chronic Illness at Work - Help!*

        Being an EA means you’re on-call 24/7. It’s part of the job description, unfortunately, and definitely hard-wired into the culture in Silicon Valley and at our company.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I’m an EA. I work 50-60 hour weeks, weekends, holidays, while I’m PTO, whenever.

          It’s immensely appreciated and not required nor expected. The second it becomes so, I will stop.

          Do not set yourself on fire to keep the company warm. If you do not have your health, you have nothing.

          Slowly pull back. Downtime, downtime, downtime.

    2. Natalie*

      Is your company large enough that FMLA (or any state-level leave law) applies? If so you could get intermittent FMLA, which would allow you to take bits of time off throwout the year, up to 12 work weeks for every rolling 12-month period. It’s job protected and should generally be uninterrupted by your boss, although unpaid except to the extent that you have PTO to cover it.

      1. Chronic Illness at Work - Help!*

        Yes, we are definitely large enough for FMLA. I think I definitely need to get on that. I sent an incoherent, hysterical email to my doctor this morning, so I suppose that will be something to talk to him about as well.

    3. fposte*

      I think it’s time to consider ADA and FMLA possibilities. Have a look at AskJAN dot org for some specific suggestions of accommodations, but also, could you financially swing a short leave under FMLA? It sounds like a break from the stress could be really helpful, and it might help you think about what possibilities to explore going forward. Job-hunting? Taking time off? Talking to your boss about a limited schedule? Finding household help?

    4. Vermonter*

      Painfog is definitely A Thing. (In fact, I’m having it now – can’t remember who coined the term.) I find I can’t remember basic parts of my job, and forget whole conversations even happened when my pain is bad. Sometimes it’s because your brain is too busy worrying about the pain to focus on email, and sometimes it’s dissociation. (If you’re dissociating – losing time, feel disconnected from your body, like your life is a movie, etc – bring it up to your doctor ASAP. It’s a valuable survival skill but it can get dangerous fast.)

      … and your work situation would be a nightmare for anyone. Chronic illness or otherwise, you deserve to have actual time off.

      1. Spooooon!!*

        I am sorry to hear what you are going through. I have RA, so I get it. And brain fog is a real thing! It has definitely caused problems at work, even more so than my physical symptoms. I have been upfront about it to my colleagues and supervisors, so they knew what was going on. A previous supervisor was less than sympathetic.

    5. Chronic Illness at Work - Help!*

      My doctor called and he is upping the dose on one of my meds and putting me off work for at least a week to start. I told him I was on call 24/7, so he’s making my leave start tomorrow through next Sunday, instead of Monday through Friday.

      1. fposte*

        Yay! I know it might not feel like a yay, but it’s a specific plan that will be a lot easier for you to deal with mentally than the “What should I do?” angst, and it’ll give the raised medication level a chance to work.

      2. Natalie*

        This sounds like an excellent start. I’d block your company’s number and email (temporarily of course) so they can’t bug you. You need a real break for your head to clear a bit and the meds to do their thing.

        1. Chronic Illness at Work - Help!*

          We recently transitioned to company cell phones, so I’m going (looks around furtively, whispers) turn it off, all the way off. And I’m going to leave my laptop at work. That’s painful and feels like an amputation, so I should probably definitely do that. I took my laptop on vacation this summer to a remote cabin in the woods, even.

    6. JimmyJab*

      I’m sorry about your trouble and I agree with those who suggest looking into FMLA. I hope you get it figured out soon. For what it’s worth, I have lupus and before I was diagnosed I was miserable, in pain, exhausted all the time, etc. Once I was treated I felt like a new woman! Hopefully whatever it is, gets treated and you start to feel better soon!

  53. Pineapple Incident*

    Last week I posted a little late asking for any knowledge management professionals to recommend resources for benchmarking knowledge management culture and status of files, etc. on shared drives. I’m in clinical trials management, and this is one of my projects in a new role. Still looking for resources! I’m already using a framework from the American Productivity and Quality Center, and some background recommendations on records management. Our eventual goal is to guide the usage of the shared drives better, have a policy repository for our internal policies vs. governing policies from parent organizations and regulatory stuff, and potentially a SharePoint site for our investigators. Any recommendations welcome! I’m starting to work with a colleague on user experience stuff so that’ll be involved too.

    The other thing I’m having difficulty with is that this is a new role for me, with far less in the way of structure and meetings than before. Does anyone who does largely remote work or independent project-based work have strategies on how to get used to this? I’m sort of building my own structure but am having a hard time sticking to it – may need to try scheduling blocks of time for myself when I work on specific things to set up my day.

    1. AcademiaNut*

      Scheduling blocks of time is a very useful tactic. It’s also useful to *track* your time to start with – how much time are you spending on different project components, answering emails, writing reports, etc. Then when you block out your time, you can take that into consideration, and also schedule stuff for your own working efficiency (for example – do brain heavy stuff in the morning when you’re fresher and have fewer interruptions, saving more routine tasks for later in the day).

      It can also be helpful to keep a list for each project, or project component. You’ve got the larger scale goals/timeline blocked out, and then space to put in the shorter term tasks. You can take ten minutes at the end of each day to sketch out what you’re going to do the next day on an even smaller scale. That can make it easier to schedule your work, and to keep track of what needs to be done.

  54. Lygeia*

    Any advice on dealing with an employee you can’t stand? A bit of context: one of my direct reports has some attitude problems. I was working to address them when he gave two weeks notice. I was honestly relieved. Then it came out that he didn’t have another job lined up, so my boss (the head of the company) offerred to let him stay on part time while he job hunts. She did this without consulting me. I would have told her not to do this. Anyway, he agreed so I’m stuck with him for a bit longer. But I now find myself struggling with my dislike of him. The way he gave his notice and his earlier attitude rubbed me the wrong way, and the fact that my boss allowed him to stay on part time also makes me mad. Advice on keeping things professional? I intend to keep addressing any attitude problems as they occur and bringing them to my boss’s attention in case we need to terminate him. But even just everyday interactions annoy me now.

    1. JimmyJab*

      This is probably going to sound so annoying and sappy, but when I struggle with people in this manner, I try really hard to imagine being them. Most people with horrible attitudes are deeply unhappy in my experience, and imagining having to live their life instead of mine tends to help me deal with the frustration and, often, anger. Works for family, sometimes, anyway!

      1. What the What*

        It’s not annoying or sappy…it sounds very compassionate, empathetic and kind to me. It also seems like it helps you deal with difficult people in a healthy and non adversarial way. I feel like putting-yourself-in-others-shoes is a lost art in our modern me-focused culture. I have great respect for what you’re doing.

    2. OneWorkingMama*

      I just constantly remind myself that we don’t have to be best friends, I just have to be professional. It’s only going to damage my reputation and image as a leader if I let an annoying staff member provoke me over the edge. And I struggle with, and am therefore hyper-vigilant about, not treating that staff I don’t really like the same as the others, not getting overly critical or nitpicky over a behavior I would let slide for a staff member I like.

    3. Uncivil Engineer*

      I have an employee I can’t stand. Everything he does annoys me. I roll my eyes pretty hard after he does silly things… but in my office with the door shut so no one can see me. I put everything in writing since he is also not good at his job. I try to limit my in-person visits with him to once per day and do some calming breathing beforehand. After having a normal interaction with him, I reward myself with something (a walk outside, a chat with a friend, chocolate, etc). And, when it builds to a point where I can’t stand it anymore, I unload my annoyances on friends who do not live in the same city as me and will never have any contact with anyone who knows this guy.

  55. Coworker that brought muffins*

    Is not having any other women at work a deal-breaker?

    Let me start by saying I do have other reasons to leave my job but also many reasons to stay. The one that I’m struggling with is being the only woman at work. There are about 25 men and then me. I have talked about it with management and the company partners, (both jokingly and seriously). They have said that it’s something they need to improve, but I’ve been here long enough to know they’re just hoping it will fix itself (how?!?!).
    I get along with my male coworkers well, but I need there to be other women for reasons that don’t really count as a business need.
    I’m starting to feel complicit in this unconscious bias against women in this industry by staying. Just curious about what others would do. Would being the only woman be one of the reasons you leave a job?

    1. CheeryO*

      It’s possible that it could turn around if there are enough women entering the field. I work in a field that is currently dominated by 50-something white dudes, but the tide is slowly turning. Colleges are pumping out new grads at pretty much a 50/50 split, maybe even skewing female. I went from being the only woman on my team to being one of three within a couple years, so even though management is still white and male and old, there are some promising signs.

      That being said, you are not obligated to wait it out. You don’t need to be a beacon for women in your field – you need to do what’s best for your own career. And if female candidates are out there and they just aren’t being hired, that seems like a red flag for how you will be treated over the course of your career.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      No. I would love to hear more background about your situation, but realize it may be too identifying. From my own career and personal history, being the lone female on a team is something I’m comfortable with. I’ve worked for large companies, so there are always other women around the company, but not necessarily in my department, on my team, or in my role. It would bother me if I was not treated well, but I don’t think having another woman (or even a 80/20 split) there would help that.

      I am curious about the statement of feeling complicit in unconscious bias against women in the industry by staying. Why if you stay? I’d feel more like I was contributing to the problem if I let them drive me out.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      On its own, it wouldn’t necessarily make me start looking, but in a situation like yours, where people are just hoping this will fix itself without taking any action, I would. (I wouldn’t mention this in any job interviews, mind you, but there’s plenty of surveys people are taking on women in tech where I would absolutely admit this. After I had the new job.)

    4. SomebodyElse*

      “Is not having any other women at work a deal-breaker?”

      Not for me. I’ve been either the only woman or the (one of the) only woman at my level all of my career (Hard to explain, but until fairly recently I was working in all or mostly male environments). Even now that I’m in a more corporate setting it’s more unusual for me to be in a meeting that has other woman than to not have them if that makes sense.

      Every once in awhile I’ll notice it and kind of go ‘hmmm’ but it’s a non-issue for me.

    5. Katertot*

      I think whether it’s a deal breaker or not is really going to vary person to person. For me? Yes, it would be. I am overall more comfortable around other women, and wouldn’t feel comfortable being the only woman working with 25 men. Not due to concerns about safety, etc – but I just personally enjoy having other women around.

      I don’t think you are complicit since you have been talking about it with management – you can’t force them to change.

    6. Mama Bear*

      If it’s something they want to improve, is that something you can help with? For example, if there’s a women in that field conference, ask to go and then give the recruiters the names/cards of anyone who might be a good fit for an open position.

    7. Lurker*

      Oh hellz yes!! That would be very problematic for me. If they can’t even hire women equitably, how are you going to have any confidence that they’ll promote you and treat you equitably as an employee!

    8. Qwerty*

      I’m a women in tech, so I’m used to it enough that it wouldn’t be for me. But I know plenty of women for whom it would be a dealbreaker, so it really depends on your comfort level.

      You mention being complicit – is there something specific about their hiring practices that makes you think that women are being blocked from entering? Are they willing to work with you to improve their process?

      Typically I enter a company as the only female developer and by the time I leave not only are there multiple women, but also more racial diversity. There are often issues at every stage of the pipeline, starting before people even apply. Part of it was simply including me in the recruitment process – women suddenly felt more comfortable approaching the company and considering applying. Part of it is that I expanded where they were advertising positions so that more women and minorities were seeing the adds. Part of it was changing how candidates were evaluated so that there was less unconscious bias available or signals to female candidates to run away.

    9. Anon Librarian*

      Personal experience: Sometimes I’m motivated to do (or not do) something for a reason that doesn’t sound good enough to me. I want to leave because I’m the only woman at work, but why? Why is that a reason to leave? I mean, there are reasons it is a reason to leave, but something seems to be missing.

      Usually, I realize later that the small reason was related to a bigger or more important reason that I had been ignoring at the time, and that I had to go through with the choice in order to recognize it.

      That could be what’s going on here. For example, maybe you’ll realize later that the culture had an anti-diversity under-current that only became obvious when you have a new workplace to compare it to. Or you really want to be doing slightly different work or have more opportunities. It could be anything.

      You could try to get a better sense of what the issues are before making a decision. Write about it, take some time off to reflect, get a volunteer job and spend time in a different kind of work environment – whatever is possible and potentially helpful. But if it’s bothering you, there is something that needs to be addressed.

    10. Nesprin*

      Yes yes yes. If they can’t keep a team at at least 10% women sexism is in play. There is no field were there is not at least 10% women in the qualified pool.

      I’m considering changing jobs because talented women keep leaving management positions. If my company can’t do well by its female middle managers, why would it do well by me?

  56. BostonKate*

    I have an intern that is really having trouble with our process. It’s an admin role and she’s halfway through the internship (3 months out of 6), so the expectation now is that she’s done onboarding and should be performing at the same level as an entry level person. However, she’s still making some pretty serious mistakes. We’ve gone over feedback, talked through action items together, had her use a checklist, etc. She says she understands the process and what she needs to do, but she’s not following through with it.

    It was suggested that there might be something else going on (exec function issues, ADD, etc.) that makes it hard for her to concentrate and follow these “easy” admin tasks. I’m looking for suggestions of different organizational systems I can suggest to her that works for folks who have trouble concentrating. Since she’s an intern, I am doing more hand-holding than a normal FTE report, so I’m happy to try all sorts of ideas since what’s currently happening isn’t working. She really wants to succeed (and I want her to too!), but we’re definitely not succeeding at the moment.

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      Is it that stuff doesn’t get done or stuff gets done wrong? Either way, I think, given that you seem committed to putting some time in here, that it might be beneficial for you to shadow her workflow for a partial day. Where do things go off the rails? Is she not checking the document she needs to, is she distracted by noise or conversation, is her checking not working?

      I think without that it doesn’t make a lot of sense to keep throwing organizational systems at her in hope one sticks; it just gives her a chance to fail in new and different ways. I’d focus on identifying where the ball gets dropped.

      1. valentine*

        If she hasn’t already, she can try looking at a fresh checklist each time and physically crossing off the steps and making sure to do that only after she has done something, perhaps by noting things like the last word in the paragraph/total of the column computed and time she saved the file. She could also add any steps she’s missing so it’s a step-by-step list.

      2. BostonKate*

        It’s a little bit of both. I like the idea of shadowing her. I think I can frame it as a mid-point check-in to see how she is with the process and see if I can flag any areas where she might misunderstanding or forgetting. Thanks!

    2. NotAPirate*

      I found Kanban boards really helpful. Different columns for stages of things. There’s a built in set to the onedrive/outlook/microsoft suite called Planner. Or there’s a a website that lets you make them for free. I had a giant one set up on posterboard and then used post its for the blocks. It’s a visualize reminder like a list but the act of pushing blocks around really helps my brain.

      If its stages in a process that she keeps messing up and not forgetting tasks, sit down with her and have her make herself a flowchart of each step (you check the steps), then laminate it for her. Give her somewhiteboard markers and then she’s got a repeatable checklist for each time she does the task. She has to make the chart though, else it probably won’t work as well for her.

      1. Mama Bear*

        If you need something that the team can see, try Trello or similar (if your company allows it). We used that for task sharing/tracking at a former company.

      2. BostonKate*

        I like the idea of having her create a flowchart! We created a pretty detailed checklist for her and asked that she fill one out each time she goes through the process, but that didn’t seem to work for her style. I like the idea of having her create her own or set out the process in a flowchart style to see if there’s anything missing as she thinks through it. Thanks!

    3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      It sounds like she’s a misclassified employee, honestly. An internship is legally supposed to provide an educational learning experience that matches their area of study. To me, having someone do admin/clerical work doesn’t seem to meet that bar. Is that perhaps part of the problem? She thought she’d be gaining experience in her major and now you’re dumping admin work on her instead? (And this is crossing the line of assuming facts not in evidence, but is her workload in line with that of the male interns, or are they all working on subject area tasks?)

      Is she being paid at least minimum wage? Because if she is not being paid, that is a whole separate issue.

      1. Mama Bear*

        I might also look at her skillset and see if this just isn’t the right position for her. Is this in line with her field of study? If not, then is there some other task she could try? An internship is a time of learning, not just doing a job. Sometimes what you learn is you hate the field or that x position isn’t a good fit.

      2. Morning Glory*

        Yeah this is seems like a ‘you get what you pay for’ situation since interns are either low-paid/no benefits or unpaid altogether.

        If you need an admin, hire an admin: it will cost you less in the long run since you won’t have to be constantly retraining new interns. Plus, it’s more ethical in my opinion.

      3. BostonKate*

        This isn’t a traditional internship tied to college, it’s through a program to close the achievement gap so the interns spend a few months in this program’s classes (focused on professional job skills) and then are placed in a paid internship with the goal that it turns into a full-time job at the end of the 6 months. We had to fill out an extensive description of the role and she was matched to us through the program. There are no gender differences on the team (as it’s an all women team). I have another intern from the same program who is not struggling with the same work and has been able to apply the feedback I’ve applied to her. I just think something isn’t clicking and am trying to figure out how to help her.

    4. Penguin*

      This might not work for someone who’s still quite new to the working world, but have you tried asking her (in a reassuring, non-judgmental fashion) what steps she’s having trouble with? She may be aware of specific things that cause her trouble but just not know how to adjust and/or may be following the all-too-common advice to just “work harder” to solve a problem. Together you might be able to triangulate in on explicit things to help her workflow, rather than simply offering a bunch of systems that may or may not address what the problems are.

      Such a conversation would probably require being mindful of the power dynamic and emphasizing that you truly want to help her do her job better, not just rebuke her for having trouble, but might yield some actionable insights.

      1. Thankful for AAM*

        I came here to say that too; ask her if she knows where things are going wrong. Maybe ahe does not know how to professionally explain what she struggles with about the job or thinks it is not ok to speak up.

    5. LilySparrow*

      Two things that I have learned are important when making systems for my ADHD are reducing transfer time, and building in control of error.

      I don’t know the technical term for what I call transfer time, but what I mean is the gap between looking at my work and looking at my checklist. As an illustration: if I put a recipe book beside me, and am measuring ingredients, by the time I read the next item in the list, look for the ingredient, pick up the right measuring spoon, and start to pour – there’s a good chance the 1/2 tsp will have transposed itself in my head to 1/2 Tbs, without my realizing it. And trying to constantly glance back and forth between the book and the bowl makes things take for-eh-ver.

      It’s much better to hang a recipe card on a clip directly over the work surface, and start with a mise-en-place where all the ingredients and tools are laid out first.

      Control of error would be a system that either shows immediately which parts are done or not, or keeps automatic logs of whether something is complete or not. The problem is, my working memory is messy and unreliable. So if I have done the essential part of a task, my brain will check it off as “done”, even if it is not totally complete.

      An illustration of this would be mailing a birthday card (or back in the old days, a bill.) I will buy, write, address and stamp a card. Done.

      But it will ride around in the side pocket of my bag for weeks or months because I failed to put it in the mailbox, and I won’t know it until the next time I need to reach into that pocket. Which is why I love email and text – sending is instant and *you have a record* that it was actually sent.

      The book “Work Clean” has some ideas I found very helpful in creating effective personal processes.

  57. Gidget*

    Oh man I have to rant. I am pretty unhappy at my job, but have gotten to the point where I don’t care much as I am working on my plan to get out. As a result I haven’t done much to decorate my office. Or to ingratiate myself with staff I barely work with.

    A woman who works in my building, not in my department, no supervisory capacity, nothing, came by looking for a coworker. When said coworker wasn’t there, she came to my office where I was typing something up and said, “Aren’t you staying?” And internally rolling my eyes I wanted to yell, “NO I AM NOT.” Anyway, I had to take out my earbuds and she was like, “Aren’t you staying? I mean if your staying, why don’t you have a name tag outside your office?” To which I responded I didn’t think anyone had name tags. Her response, “Well you have one and it’s a big blank space so you need to get one. Didn’t you notice? Why didn’t you notice. (ftr I did notice, and did not care) This is the only way people will learn who you are.” And she just kept going on and on about it.

    This is doubly annoying because this is the same woman who once chastised me for not having decorated my office… (because I didn’t want to bring things in from home with my stupid long commute and my intention to get out as soon as reasonable) and because one time she came by and decided my office was too quiet. She was like you should be playing music. And I told her sometimes I listen to things with earbuds in because I don’t want to disturb my coworkers. And she then berated me for using earbuds because she doesn’t think they are comfortable (neither do I) but the only reason I switched to earbuds is because I was told that regular headphones were too anti-social. And the office norm is quite literally silence. Which in itself I find problematic, but whatever.

    I just wanted to tell this woman to mind her own business. And like what right does she have to dictate my sensory input, what if I had sensory issues that made it difficult for me to concentrate with music and distracting artwork. I don’t, but ugh. I am so ready to not be in such a weirdly judgey place

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      Are you able to push back at all, cordially?

      I like Allison’s usual script of saying “You’re awfully concerned with my office environment/my music/my use of earbuds/etc. her annoying pick-of-the-week. Can we change the subject?” or pivoting to a work question. I do think that regardless of how long you PLAN to stay, getting a door name tag is a good thing to match office convention. It may take longer than planned to get out of there, and that would tackle one of this lady’s “things”

      Sorry you’re at BEC stage with her – for the record, she sounds really annoying and I would be too at this point!

      1. Gidget*

        I went ahead and investigated the name tag thing and that is already in the works since I wrote my post. I wish I could pivot to a work topic, but our work is completely unrelated (that is when I actually have work, which I hardly ever do). I think she just likes lecturing people. We have a culture where a lot of people have worked here a long time and treats everyone’s children like their own and unfortunately that applies to more junior coworkers as well.

        1. LKW*

          Well the most-polite-rude response would be a casually distracted set of responses:

          “Well I must get back to work now”
          “Oh are you still focused on that?”
          “Mmm, what was that?”
          “Will you take care of that for me? Thanks!”
          Hold the single finger up in the “hold on” and just pick up the phone and make a call.

          In short… she can lecture but you don’t have to listen.

    2. LawBee*

      Can you tell her to go away? In a nice professional manner of course, but if she’s got no work-related reason to talk to you, why is she bothering you at all? “I’m busy with work right now, LawBee, I don’t have time to chat with you.” Then do the Pointed Back Turn and Ignore.

      1. Gidget*

        I wish. She was standing in my office doorway. I am loving the imagery though if I just was like I am done talking and spun around in my chair and looked at the wall. Would be great for an office comedy.

        1. valentine*

          She was standing in my office doorway.
          You go to her and close the door, saying, “Oh, my. I certainly don’t want to disturb anyone.”

    3. Mama Bear*

      I would tell her that the concern is noted, but it isn’t something you are planning to deal with. Did she have a work-related task? If not, you really need to get back to what you were doing.

      1. Gidget*

        Thanks for the advice! I wish I could be this blunt. I definitely went the route of dealing with her concern because I had nothing better to do and it would keep her off my back for a bit.

        1. WellRed*

          I think everytime she told me what she thinks I should be doing, I’d respond with “Duly noted, coworker.” Then go back to typing, pop back in earbuds, etc.

    4. Donna*

      I think it’s almost like an unwritten rule….in every office, there needs to be one loud, obnoxious who can’t mind their own business. Or at least that has been my experience!

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Give her barely a glance and say blandly, “Thank you for your concern” and go about your business. Stop engaging in a back and forth about why you do or don’t do anything and just keep repeating it. If you want to add variety, “It’s kind of you to be concerned,” “I appreciate the concern,” “I’m touched that you are thinking of me.” All said absolutely robotically as though you are Siri responding with pre-programed quips. She’ll huff off eventually.

      Her: “Why don’t you have a name tag?”
      You: “Thank you for your concern”
      Her: “Are you planning on leaving?”
      You: “I’m touched that you are thinking of me.”
      Her: “You need a name tag so people know who you are”
      You: “It’s kind of you to be concerned.”

  58. Rabbit*

    Greatest workplace unsolved mysteries?

    I basically wanted to tell the story of something that happened a few years ago that I never got a proper answer on…
    Years ago, fresh from my degree in Chocolate Teapot Engineering I started working as a Teapot Engineer at a large global company. One of my regular tasks was assessing teapots using a standardised spreadsheet – this needed some engineering judgement but because it was a regular task most of the calculations were fairly automatic. For complicated teapots a check was built in that an independent team in another office would perform the same calculation, and we would compare the final results to chase down any discrepancies.

    Then Wakeen started – a more senior engineer in his 40s. His desk was next to mine so he asked me for help with getting used to the IT setup/navigating the timesheets/finding documents on the shared drive. Fair enough – except he also needed help opening and closing excel and seemed to think my ability open a program from the start menu meant I was “very good at computers”….. Huh.

    At one point there were major differences between Wakeen’s results and the results from the other team so our manager Tim asked me to do a quick comparison and a review of Wakeen’s calculations . Although there were a couple of issues with the other team, Wakeen’s numbers were just odd:
    -In many places cells that should have been formulas were replaced by values – this was a big problem as only the initial inputs should have been changed and there was then no way to see where the numbers were coming from
    -The numbers just didn’t make sense – in a way that should have been obvious to even a non-engineer eg. they said that the spout weighed twice as much as the body, or the maximum temperature was lower than the minimum temperature

    I put together a very diplomatically worded summary, suggesting that the issues might have been because of a copy-paste error (not really feasible) and shortly after Wakeen …. disappeared. Tim wouldn’t talk about it and all I heard was someone else unofficially bringing it up in the pub that Wakeen had been some sort of fraud. I still wonder what exactly happened and what credentials he had/faked – searching his name on linked in doesn’t bring anything up.

    Ah, got that off my chest. Anyone else?

    1. CTT*

      Interesting!

      The closest I have was a 12-month period where there were four bomb threats called into our building. The first one was TERRIFYING but by the fourth one everyone was over it and rolling our eyes while evacuating (I was on the 17th floor and rolled them the whole way down!) I don’t know if they ever caught the guy, but the police did authorize releasing the calls to all the building tenants to see if anyone recognized the voice. Popular theories were 1) someone trying to mess with their ex, 2) targeting the itty bitty FBI office in the building, or 3) had our number confused for another, more important building.

      1. Rabbit*

        Well that sounds awful – oddly enough the old job was at an office that did actually have to shut briefly due to a nearby terrorist attack – it was a funny feeling to wake up very hungover on Sunday to texts from my manager using the emergency phone tree to check that I hadn’t been in the affected area the previous evening

    2. Fabulous*

      When I was a receptionist for a financial firm, there was a client who freaked out because of a lost check for his paperwork (or something like that – it’s been a few years, I can’t remember the exact situation.)

      I did my best to figure out what happened to his check, went back in all the sign-in logs, and found the date and time he would have supposedly dropped off his check. And of course, I was not at the front desk at that time as it was my lunch break. So that was a dead end.

      Anyway, during all this, the guy was incessantly harassing me–the receptionist who literally has no power to do anything–on a holiday no less, when only two other people were in the office. He was calling about 30 times an hour, making threatening comments, calling me retarded, telling me I should only ever work drive-thru at McDonalds, that I was on meth, etc. This dude was going C-R-A-Z-Y.

      One of the other people finally stepped up and took his call (I had started ignoring everything from his number by that time, sending him to voicemail) and told him to bring a new check that we’d get his paperwork filed today and be done with it. They guy came, my coworker met him outside (bc hell if he’s coming into our building with the threats he made) and the situation was supposedly put to rest.

      Because of all the hubbub this guy threw, there was an internal follow-up investigation on what happened to his check. As I mentioned, I had pinpointed the exact time he said he supposedly dropped it off, but there was no record anywhere of the check being received. Corporate went so far as to pull the security footage to see what happened.

      And that’s literally the end of the story. I wish I knew what was the outcome!!!

      1. Mop Head*

        OMG that’s horrible, and I really hate when anyone thinks the first person who answers the phone anywhere has all the answers and is in charge.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Weird thing happened to my husband this week. He is a self-employed electrician. He usually gets paid by check or online at the time of service, but he had not been paid for this one particular job where he was hired directly by a homeowner on a basement finish. He called them and they said they would put a check in the mail (his least favorite way to get paid). He said he was working in the same neighborhood and he would just drop by and get a check. No, they said. A little while later, the general contractor from the job calls him and asks if we have a red truck in our driveway. He said we did, and the contractor tells him that the clients drove to our personal house and put the check in our mailbox. His business address is our house, but it’s not a business where you have clients come to the house. (We live on a rural lot with a large shop.) I don’t know what’s up with people. Of course, he said they also wouldn’t let them walk through the house and made them climb in and out of the basement window. Why you so weird?

      1. valentine*

        they also wouldn’t let them walk through the house and made them climb in and out of the basement window.
        This sounds like a murder story. Even if desperate for the money, it’s best he never do this again (What if it’s not even their house?) and he can stop accenting checks.

      2. Gatomon*

        That is BIZARRE. Almost all bank accounts and some major credit cards have online bill-pay now too, where they will mail a check to whomever free of charge! That’s how I’ve been writing checks for home repairs lately since my name, address and even my bank’s name is wrong on all my checks now. Been over 7 years since I’ve had to order any and I think I still have 100 or so left. After my landlord forced us all into a portal and stopped taking checks I pretty much gave up on them as a payment medium.

        1. pancakes*

          It’s not bizarre. There are businesses that categorically do not have access to banking services. Even in states where cannabis is legal medicinally and recreationally, for example, the lack of progress at the federal level means that even businesses with state licenses often don’t have the ability to open business checking accounts or credit cards, use payroll companies or apply for small business loans, etc. There are any number of things that can lock people out of a Paypal or Venmo account too—an eBay or Etsy seller trying to resolve a dispute, for example, could be frozen out for months.

    4. Lora*

      True story: At my very first job out of college, working in an analytical chemistry lab, the guy who hired me was named Vinny. He offered the job, I got a letter from HR of a start date in a few weeks, and on my very first day, Vinny was MIA and I was introduced to the guy who would be my new boss, Paul. Weird, but OK. I was told Vinny got a new job at Prestigious Local Employer.

      Fast fwd a few years, and now I have been hired to work at Prestigious Local Employer. It was Friday evening, we were all at Happy Hour and I asked over beers, what ever happened to Vinny? Everyone gave each other Looks, and seemed to nominate the nicest lady in the group to explain to me:

      Vinny had worked in Usual Department for a couple of years, then applied for an opening in Prestigious Department that was just getting started. Prestigious Department worked on Department of Defense projects and thus required a lengthy background check. Turned out Vinny had falsified ALL his higher education and barely graduated high school, in addition to some of his work experiences. So they let him go….and it also had to be reported to various other regulatory agencies that he should be put on various debar lists due to this falsification. I just checked on LI, turns out he’s a real estate agent now…

    5. Ama*

      My part in this got solved but I guess I never did find out what happened to this particular caller:

      At the time I was working at a university with a number of buildings scattered throughout the city, and I answered the phone for ours. One day I answered the phone to a guy who said “uh, yeah we’re doing construction on the roof at [our street] and we’ve been locked out can you get someone to let us in?”

      I was a little surprised because I thought I’d been told the guys coming to work on our a/c had finished, but our building manager wasn’t great at communicating, so I ran up to the top floor where our roof access was. No one was there. It didn’t even look like anyone had been working up there at all. I stopped at my boss’s office on the way down and confirmed that the a/c guys had in fact finished the day before and weren’t expected back.

      I went back to work. About 30 minutes later, the guy called back, and he was very frustrated. I told him — “I don’t know where you are but I’m in the [university] building on [our street] and I just checked the roof and there’s no one up there, are you sure you’re calling the right number?” He wasn’t sure, so he decided to hang up and check some paperwork he had.

      I figured that was the end of it, but 15 minutes later he called again, and said that he had called the university operator, asked for the building on [our street] and they connected him to us. I told him our full address and asked “are you SURE that’s the correct one?”

      Turned out it wasn’t (not a surprise). They were working on a brand new outpost of the university medical center that happened to be on our same street, a few blocks over. It was so new that it wasn’t on any of the university directories yet, so the operator (who tbh were prone to just doing whatever got the caller off the phone the fastest) had just assumed they must have meant our building. I told him to tell the operator the full address and if they didn’t have that info to ask to be connected to the medical center, who would probably be able to find it.

      I assume they got off the roof eventually, but I always wondered how many more steps in the process it took.

    6. OyHiOh*

      Once upon a time, several decades ago, a finance company brought in a female new hire, who proceeded to wreck devestation and broken hearts through a vast swath of the company’s male employees. Eventually, she quit, saying she was going west “to torture people in That City,” per my friend telling the story. The years come and go, the internet becomes *a thing,* and my friend decides to do a bit of searching, see where X ended up. Low and behold, friend cannot find a trace of X anywhere. So my friend went to the HR department and said hey, can you do a favor? We didn’t do the kinds of in depth backgrounds we do now, when we hired X. Do you think you could do the kind of background on X that we do on new hires now?”

      Astute readers may be able to gather where this goes.

      Two days later, HR rep comes back to my friend, pale as a ghost and says “nobody in the company can know this. X lied about everything. Her name, vital stats, where she went to school . . . everything is fake.”

      And that’s where it ends. Who was X, really????

    7. Mop Head*

      I’m laughing at your description of “he seemed to think your ability to open a program from the start menu meant you are very good at computers.” OMG.

    8. Liane*

      College mystery for me. (I may have mentioned this before)
      When I was at the local community college, I was on the College Bowl team, an academic quiz competition. The Sociology professor (very small college) was one of the coaches. Nothing stuck out about Prof. T. A few years later, while visiting my Dad, I saw an article in the paper about him resigning. Florida had a new law requiring that all public colleges/universities in the state had to have proof of instructors’ credentials–and Prof. T. couldn’t provide proof of his degrees. Why not? Because, Prof. T claimed, he had gotten them under another name, while working for the CIA! Was he actually a Real Spy? A few months ago, I located some of those newspaper articles online. (The wonders of the internet!) The details of Prof. T’s life were pretty chaotic–disappearing from his family for decades, involvement in things that should have been above his paygrade (for the military/Federal jobs he officially held) & the like. So it’s possible.

  59. Birch*

    I’m probably overthinking this, but just wanted some opinions on ethics and guilt. Basically is it ethical to stay in a position that you know you’re not doing your best at and would leave at the blink of an eye if you got another offer, but are staying now because you need the money?

    Now that I write that it sounds ridiculous. Loads of people are in that position. I’m just feeling guilty about it because I’m an academic and my salary comes out of my supervisor’s grant, so she’s essentially done the work to get me paid for not doing well due to burnout and a bad situation (that she caused). I feel guilty for not contributing what I thought I could contribute and a bit guilty for agreeing to fresh objectives when I’m also trying to leave before my contract is up. Has anyone else been in a situation like this and did you feel guilty?

    1. In A Similar Boat*

      I don’t know if my situation is completely analogous, but I am in a similar situation of feeling incredibly guilty about job searching in my current position. My boss runs a small operation that is not doing well financially, and I know paying me an even livable wage causes her hardship in both her personal and business finances. She regularly goes to bat for me and makes business decisions based on the idea that I should be getting basic benefits and raises. That being said, in doing so, she has neglected other resources and personnel investments, causing me to have a huge workload. Even though I’ve brought it up to her and we’ve tried to work on this a couple of times, I’ve found myself completely burned out in just two years.
      I have been job searching since June and dealing with feelings of guilt and shame during the whole process, but I’ve come to see that I needed to reframe the situation, thanks to AAM and the lovely commenters here. Both my boss and I need to operate under the expectation that I am staying, because applying for jobs is such a long process and not a guaranteed one, and because in the meantime, I need money and she needs her business to run. But beyond that, it is her responsibility as a business owner and a manager to make sure that her business goals are being accomplished and will continue to be accomplished no matter what. She would have to do the same if you were in a different situation—if something happened and you could no longer work, if you had a medical condition that caused you to be less productive, if something changed in her funding and she needed to shuffle things around. As the business owner/project leader it also falls on her to keep her employees working functionally and make them feel appreciated, to create an environment where her goals can be accomplished. What responsibility I have in my situation is to keep doing the best that I can for the business under the current circumstances.
      I’m the kind of person who overly empathizes and takes other people’s problems and emotions on as my own very often (which may be similar for you, idk), so this has been a difficult thing to remind myself to keep doing, but it is really how I’m getting myself through this period. I hope this is helpful at all!

    2. Turtlewings*

      I think it’s natural to feel guilty, but as long as you’re doing the best you reasonably can while you’re there, you’re not doing anything unethical. After all, would it actually help your boss for you to quit before you’re ready? She’s probably not going to appreciate you leaving any more now than later, whereas it probably makes a BIG difference to you. As far as agreeing to fresh objectives, think of it as keeping the seat warm for the next person. It’s only right to keep doing your job up until the point it’s not your job anymore. Part of that means looking to future, even if it’s a future your successor will be there for, instead of you.

      1. Just Another Manic Millie*

        “Basically is it ethical to stay in a position that you know you’re not doing your best at and would leave at the blink of an eye if you got another offer, but are staying now because you need the money?”

        It certainly is. Even if you’re not doing your best, it appears that your work is satisfactory. And everyone needs money.

        As for being willing to leave at the blink of an eye if you got another offer, well, some companies would fire you in the blink of an eye for no good reason. At one job, I accidentally found out that I was going to be fired as soon as a replacement was hired. I was told that everyone who had that job got fired within one year so that they would never be given a raise and they would never be able to take time off for a vacation. But since I found out ahead of time, I was able to quit before they could fire me. And they hadn’t hired a replacement by then.

        Almost twelve years later, I was filling out an application to work for a federal agency, when I came across the question “Did you quit a job to avoid getting fired in the last ten years?” I freaked out very badly. I don’t know how I would have reacted if that question had been asked of me by the interviewer. The morally correct answer was “No,” since the incident had taken place almost twelve years ago, but I’m sure that I would have looked very nervous, and the interviewer might have concluded that I lied when saying “No.” And if that question had been asked of me while I was taking a polygraph, forget it! Luckily, I was able to pull myself together and check the “No” box.

        Another company fired me eight weeks after I started because a co-worker got jealous when a supervisor praised me (right in front of her), and she told the branch manager if that if he didn’t fire me, she would quit. So he fired me. Being fired before my three months of probation were up meant that I was ineligible for rehire by any of their branch offices. And it was the last day of the month, so, since I was fired at 5:00 PM, I was covered by health insurance only for the next seven hours. I was told that I hadn’t worked long enough at the company to be eligible for COBRA.

        So, since a company can throw you away whenever it feels like it, I believe that an employee can quit whenever he feels like it. Especially since the employee would most likely give two weeks notice. I certainly wasn’t given two weeks notice.

    4. Ktelzbeth*

      I would absolutely feel guilty, but I don’t think either of us should, though I haven’t been in your same academic position. Plenty of people have jobs that they aren’t the best at or that they want to leave, whether they started that way or things evolved to that point. If we had a universal basic income and no one had to work to survive, maybe one could argue it is unethical to stay and give less than your best, but as you say, you need money.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I try not to feel guilty about this kind of situation anymore and you know why? Most companies would not care one wink bit about letting you go!
      It’s just like they’ll tell you when you get laid off, it’s not personal, it’s just business.
      Take care of your own business first.

    6. LilySparrow*

      The thing about looking at situations from an ethical point of view is that there’s an opposite. And looking at the opposite can clarify the situation.

      So if staying at a job you’re mediocre at were unethical, that would mean you were morally obligated to do the opposite – quit. Which would extend to mean that nobody should ever do any job unless they are the most brilliant top performer.

      Well, now we have global 95% unemployment, the world economy grinds to a halt because nobodys doing enough of the work for any business to function, and everyone starves.

      There is no ethical obligation to starve the planet for not being good enough at their jobs. I think this feeling of misplaced guilt is an offshoot of the stress you’re experiencing.

      Try to see what you can do to improve your rest and your mental health, to get through this situation. It’s taking a toll. And best of luck on that job hunt.

    7. Roverandom*

      Until it is logistically and financially possible for everyone to opt out of working if they don’t want to–so a very robust universal basic income and strong safety net–it is never unethical to work because you need money.

      Now you can muddle this with working illegally, or working a job that harms others/the planet, but just plain working a job that you would leave if you could? That’s what everyone is doing right now.

  60. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

    If you’re a “government contractor” who’s an employee of a private company and the government employees you work under discriminate against you (eg in work assignments), do you have the same protections as you would if your actual employer discriminated against you?

    1. fposte*

      Generally, you have the same or similar protections (or more, in some cases), but the avenues for legal redress might be different. However, if you mean that they’re treating you less well because of your status as a contractor, I don’t believe that would be protected by law, whereas if you mean the federal employees are discriminating against you for a reason protected by law like race, religion, gender, etc., that would still be.

      1. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

        Oh yeah, that wasn’t clear! I meant if it’s on the basis of a protected class (I’m thinking about pregnancy specifically, in case that matters — like if the civil servants start taking projects away from you when they find out you’re pregnant).

        1. fposte*

          I’m tentative given that the federal/private interface is complicated, but it looks like it’s proscribed for federal contractors as well as federal employees, so I don’t see much of a loophole there.

        2. Mockingjay*

          No, they can’t.

          Most federal contracts are for “non-personal” services. That means your company supports an agency program, not people at an agency. The agency tasks your company to do X, Y, and Z. Your company manager is the one who assigns the work to you. You can report progress to the agency and provide deliverables to the agency, but you report to your company manager.

          The above is grossly oversimplified, but the point is that a government employee cannot reassign a contractor employee. The government has to request it through your company management and provide rationale. I am wondering if you are onsite with the government agency. That’s where this kind of thing tends to occur.

          Please contact your company management ASAP. It will be helpful to have a list of “before” and “after” duties, copies of emails, etc. I’ve had this happen to me before and had to push back.

  61. zora*

    JOB SEARCH ACCOUNTABILITY THREAD

    What did you do for your job search this week?? Post your updates here. Or if you need to vent, post here for some moral support.

    1. zora*

      Once again, I don’t have much to post this week. Had a badddd week at work, so I skipped a networking event I was signed up for to go home and calm my anxiety. Which was the right thing to do in the moment, but I am frustrated I haven’t made more progress.

      Have a really interesting panel event on my calendar for Tuesday, though, and am going to find time to work on my elevator speech and “career narrative” this weekend so I can talk about myself on Tuesday and make an effort to meet at least a couple of people and hand out a couple of my business cards.

      1. wingmaster*

        Giving yourself a break in the job search progress is necessary! Keep us posted how your panel event goes next week!

        1. zora*

          Yeah, I know, but every week is becoming a break week lately, and that’s not helping me get a new job!! ;o) But I’m feeling a little more motivated after talking to some nice people and i’m determined to make some progress soon!

          1. JobHunter*

            You’re not alone in that, zora. Grinding out applications becomes disheartening after a while.

    2. Operation Glowing Symphony*

      Somewhat new to the job search – 13 days today.

      – Always looking every day
      – Working on my CliftonStrengths (aka StrengthsFinder) to re-up my self-education
      – Applied to a job but haven’t heard they’ve received it so I’ll follow-up today
      – A previous co-worker, who left after me and is at a new job, asked for my resume as they’re considering a new position.
      – Haven’t taken any strides towards networking (ick) or formally getting out of the house but that’ll have to change soon.
      – I tried to find volunteering but haven’t heard back from the organization (annoying as I’m in non-profit and I know what it means to return volunteer inquiries as soon as possible).
      – Bowed out of a volunteering opp, with a Taproot project, as it became unwieldy. The organizer recruited so many people we were tripping on one another, from across the country, and it felt like a job.

      I’m challenged in that we want to leave this city, and that relies on my husband to find a new job. He’s looking but doesn’t have anything in the works. So I’ll be looking for a job knowing that we’ll be leaving possibly next year if things go well.

    3. wingmaster*

      This week was full of interviews! I had my final Skype conference on Monday, 3 phone interviews Tuesday, 1 phone interview yesterday, and 2 interviews today (a Skype call and phone).

      Yesterday’s phone interview has moved me forward to the final round, which is an on-site interview. I’m currently waiting to hear back on flight information!

      I was asked for references after Monday’s interview, and 2/4 of my references were contacted. This has now led to the final which is a phone call with the CEO today, which I actually have posted in a separate post on today’s thread. Basically, I found a lot of bad Glassdoor reviews and even many articles regarding the CEO, so I’d like to bring this up to the CEO…just thinking of how to script my question. I think there were other factors to consider as well (no company 401k match, HR really pushing me how equity is a great benefit, etc).

    4. AwkwardTurtle*

      I was supposed to have a video interview this week but due to interviewer availability, that’s been pushed to next week. I still haven’t heard anything back for confirming a time next week. I’ve been job searching for who knows how long and it’s been way too frustrating to get to the 1st or 2nd phone interview and not moving forward. I’ll probably take a break during the holidays so I don’t burn out.

    5. HollyWeird*

      Have another in person interview today for one company, I’ve already met the recruiter, done a phone interview with a project lead and done two in person interviews so I’m thinking this will be the final stage.

      I’m at a similar stage in interviewing at another org as well and was disappointed because while they initially had told me they needed to bring me on before the end of the year and after my last in person interview they told me their time frame was pushed into next year and they won’t be able to make an offer until January. I understand that it’s somewhat common in consulting to not hire in last quarter, just wish that I hadn’t gotten my hopes up initially. I also was hoping to be able to compare both offers side by side but the first firm would not want to wait until January so if I do get an offer following today’s interview I won’t have that option.

    6. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      I applied for three local jobs, including one I would looooove but worry I’m a bit overqualified for.

      I had a phone interview last week and they got in touch a few days ago to schedule a Skype interview! It’s my first interview since starting my job hunt.

      I’ve applied for eight jobs so far, was rejected from one without being interviewed, have this interview lined up for another, and am still waiting to hear about six other applications.

      All in all, I’m feeling really positive about everything!

    7. Mill Miker*

      I did not do anything for my job search this week, despite intending to check out the link Annonno Today provided.

      … I also have no idea what I did instead. Huh.

    8. JobHunter*

      I looked at listings, and updated some items on my resume.

      I just checked a listing I had applied for several months ago. Consideration is ‘in progress’, but since I haven’t heard anything back. I was pretty hopeful about that one. Guess I will have to fill out more applications!

  62. Amber Rose*

    Oh, I forgot to mention: My coworker whose brother ended his life was NOT talked to about the change in our chosen charity, and when I talked to him about it he was super uncomfortable and not OK with the whole idea.

    So instead we’re gonna put everyone’s charity suggestions in a hat and have one drawn randomly.

    That was the worst and most uncomfortable conversation I’ve ever had with a coworker in my life. -_-

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Oh no I remember seeing this one last week and really hoping someone at the company had the common sense to discuss it with the coworker. How terrible.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Apparently at least one of my coworkers wanted to actively hide it from the guy and surprise him with it. My face was just :O when I heard that.

          1. Amber Rose*

            I can kinda see it. People are awkward as heck around death, and they were thinking that a donation in the guy’s name would be like a touching memorial.

            But actually it was super inappropriate because of course it was if you give it more than a second of thought.

            1. pancakes*

              Even as a memorial, the idea that it would be a better memorial to the brother by way of being a surprise than it would be without the element of surprise makes no sense. It’s not as if there’s a game show audience for this philanthropy that needs an element of surprise to stay engaged.

    2. zora*

      Ugh, that sounds awful. But good for you for doing the hard thing and broaching the conversation since no one else did. It would have been so much worse for the poor guy if no one had done that at all. I’m so sorry you are dealing with this at all, suicide is so hard to deal with. Take care of yourself this weekend!

      1. Amber Rose*

        It was the worst (he looked like he was gonna cry), but I’d rather do the hard thing than have nobody do it. At least, with years of AAM articles in my head, I’m fairly confident in my ability to be tactful and appropriate.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Yikes! I’m so sorry that turned out to be the case. Well done for being the one to turn it around.

    4. Gumby*

      Why not go back to the charity that had been selected before kindof-emotionally-dense employee switched it to the suicide prevention one? Why start over again?

  63. Phone Pinging All Day*

    So, my seatmate in our open office leaves her phone on all day. I have asked her to put it to silent, but a) I can tell she doesn’t like to do this and isn’t used to having to do it and b) she constantly forgets. She tells me to just let her know when it’s bothering me. When I do, to be fair, she is always nice about it and silences it. But it’s 100% my job to let her know every day. I’m not comfortable being the bad guy. I have asked her easily 10 days in a row. Is there a way to push back on the “it’s my job to tell you to do this” framing? To make it worse, my seatmates claim it doesn’t bother them, so it seems like a weird hangup of mine rather than basic courtesy.

    1. Nancy*

      This sounds very much like a fix which isn’t actually fixing anything. I mean, by the time the phone has rung and you’ve asked her to switch it to silent, it’s already bothered you. How frustrating! Would it be possible to have a conversation with her in which you say more or less what you’ve put here: ‘I’m happy to remind you occasionally, but I really would appreciate it if you could switch your phone to silent as a matter of course, not after it’s rung. It really breaks my concentration, and although I really do appreciate that you’ve taken it in good part when I’ve asked you to switch the ringer off, it would mean a lot to me not to have my workflow interrupted like that.’

    2. Lindsay*

      Some phones let you schedule ‘do not disturb’ times. Mine automatically goes into do not disturb mode on weekdays 9-5. Maybe you could see if that’s an option?

    3. Grapey*

      When you come in (or when she comes in if you’re in already) – “Reminder – could you silence your phone while we’re both in the office? Asking after it already rings defeats the purpose. Thanks!”

      Since you’re the one with 100% of the problem, I think it’s fair you have 100% of the job to ask.

      I could see someone passive aggressively ‘forgetting’ to turn it off but you say she’s nice so I’ll believe you. She may also be upfront and say “I’ll put a post it on my desk to remember to keep the volume low, but I’d like to leave it on, sorry”, which is how I’d react to being asked to turn my personal phone off every day.

      That said, my office mates and I all leave our phones on regular volume, but we also don’t get daily calls/frequent texts. If she gets daily personal calls and actually takes them in the office, you could frame that as the annoyance more than the volume, same with text notifications that are persistent.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        No one mentioned having the co-worker turn off her phone – just the volume. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask people at work to turn their ringers off if they get texts and phone calls all day. It’s intensely distracting especially if they walk away and leave their phone to continually ring.

        1. Grapey*

          By ‘turn off’ I meant ‘turn off the ringer’ as evidenced by every other time I mentioned low volume in my comment. I wouldn’t expect anyone to actually turn off their phone.

        2. pancakes*

          It’s been the norm in every office I’ve worked in to switch your ringer off unless you’re waiting on critical news about something. It is distracting to hear people’s phones going off all day, and I don’t think it works well to leave it up to an informal popular vote.

      2. Roverandom*

        I think the default in most offices is to have your personal phone on silent. OP shouldn’t need to ask.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Can you print out a sign and leave it on her keyboard every morning? Ask her to hand it back to you when she’s put the phone on silent, and repeat as needed. I would get tired of asking out loud every single day.

  64. Aurora Leigh*

    My boss was out of line, right?

    One of my coworkers just went out on maternity leave (unpaid) and my boss is super stressed about coverage and wether or not CW will come back. (CW wanted to come back to a part time schedule and was told no.)

    I am female, late 20s, and engaged to a man. Boss told me, “Don’t you go getting ideas about babies, we can’t have anyone else pregnant here!”

    I just tried to laugh it off and said something about not until after the wedding. But it made me very uncomfortable! Because we do want to have kids, and I mean, a surprise baby isn’t entirely out of the question, even though we’re not actively “trying” yet.

    1. zora*

      Yes, your boss was out of line. That is a textbook example of the ‘subtle’ discrimination against women and mothers that makes it harder for women to advance in the workplace, even if it’s just because we internalize that being a mother is a “problem”. Your boss sucks and should know better than to take out his staffing stress on you because you are a woman.

    2. Jamie*

      Completely out of line. The contents or lack thereof of your womb are never your employers business until/unless you choose to discuss it.

    3. insufficient coffee*

      yes, boss was totally of line. You might also consider looking around for a more supportive job before you need mat leave.

    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Super out of line.
      Employees leave temporarily or permanently all the time. Injuries, major illness, family situations, emergencies – all of that could also put an employee out for weeks or months. Planning for this is part of the deal.

      Pointing to pregnancy specifically is sexist and gross.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah this isn’t a young women’s issue, they just lump it on us and act like it’s our problem. Men need paternity / caregiving / medical leave all the time too.

        1. SpaceySteph*

          Yes and this is why my husband will be taking the 6 week max for our next kid (we work for the same company so per FMLA we do have to share our baby bonding leave). The sooner we normalize parenting as a gender neutral task, the better for all women in the workplace.

    5. LGC*

      See, this is why people were so relieved about the pregnancy guesser from yesterday. It could have been SO MUCH WORSE, such as your situation.

      (Yes, your boss was WAY out of line. And that’s just really legally dicey, I think.)

    6. SpaceySteph*

      Yes boss was out of line and this is incredibly inappropriate. Probably wouldn’t report him on one comment alone, but I would document it, and also be on alert for other ways that he is subtly (or not so subtly) discriminating against women of childbearing age. Document it all. Date, time, any written correspondence.

      At my job we are always shortstaffed and yet my boss didn’t even blink when I came to him as the third woman in our group due within a 2 month span. Even when I was like “if you’re doing the math, that’s the same time as X and right after Y.” He was just like “Yup, congratulations!”

      I’m sure he’d pull some “heh heh overly serious woman can’t take a joke” but that’s because his joke isn’t funny. And though it can be difficult to have to work around long leaves, you are not the appropriate outlet for those frustrations.

  65. That Girl from Quinn's House*

    Did anyone see this article from the Washington Post regarding the HireVue software, which analyzes audio/video files for voice tone, face expression, etc., to sort job candidates into “good fit” and “bad fit” categories?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/22/ai-hiring-face-scanning-algorithm-increasingly-decides-whether-you-deserve-job/

    I think this is incredibly creepy and weird, a huge violation of privacy, and a really bad slippery slope to go down in deeming people “worthy” of employment or not.

    1. Nicki Name*

      As a programmer who has worked with this sort of “AI” before (in a completely different, actually useful domain), my professional opinion is that this is 100% snake oil.

      Unfortunately it’s probably going to hang around for as long as all those bogus personality tests we hear about here from time to time.

    2. Purt's Peas*

      Yes, this kind of thing, if not this exact company, has popped up in the news a few times recently and it’s nightmarishly bad. It’s bad enough that private companies & governments are keeping thorough biometrics for the purpose of customs and so forth; I really hate the idea of extending that into hiring, into smaller & smaller companies, & ever-less-secure private servers.

      Besides that, it is patently modern phrenology and uses techno-mysticism to obfuscate racist & discriminatory hiring practices.

      1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

        Agree.

        Wondering how one would undertake a lawsuit for discrimination of the HireVue system?
        I think they ought to make very plain their data collection and evaluation criteria -to the public.

        For all I know, they’ve ‘trained’ these things to look for signs of age in one’s face=reject.

    3. Lora*

      Why don’t they just hire based on astrological signs?

      The way image analysis AIs are trained is on some database of existing hires. “ID card photos of people who work at Three Initial Corporation” vs some random sampling of Facebook photos or whatever, and the algorithm is going to try to identify some vector-like measurements that the Three Initial Corporation employee photos have in common that is statistically different from the random sampling of Facebook photos.

      If the people already working at Three Initial Corporation are all 6′ tall white men with a full head of grey hair for whom English is a first language, you can see right away the problem. Everything is predicated on *previous hires*. If there were problematic issues in previous hiring, then those issues will be perpetuated by the AI. If your previous hires consisted of Matt Lauer, Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Louis CK, John Lasseter, Brett Ratner and Jeffrey Tambor, then the AI is VERY likely to predict that a “good hire” would be Mark Halperin or Charlie Rose, compared to hiring a regular dude who keeps his hands to himself. Because that is what you trained it to do – even if all those guys were fired with “do not rehire” notes in their files. You have to curate the heck out of the training data set, and that has to be done by people – so the argument that “people have biases” ends up being tautological.

      Anyone who thinks AI is going to be just peachy at something as subtle as hiring people needs to read the AI Weirdness blog by Janelle Shane. For video analysis in particular, GauGAN and runawayML SPADE are available to play with for free and you can see easily why this software is just…not gonna work out.

    5. Anon Librarian*

      Horrible and discrimminatory considering all the things that can affect tone of voice and facial expressions (culture of origin, all kinds of medical issues, and probably a lot more). I hope someone sues and wins.

    6. Ron McDon*

      I really enjoyed listening to a programme on BBC Sounds this week, which was all about how the world of work has changed (particularly for women) in the past couple of decades.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000462k

      There was an episode (there are three in total), all about recruitment and how employers are increasingly relying on AI to screen candidates.

      There’s a truly terrible boss on that particular episode, who gives extra credit to applicants who show gumption, I was cringing listening to him talking about how to make yourself ‘stand out’ and ‘show your interest’… yuck!

    7. Kat in VA*

      I have a speech impediment that can sound like I’m about to cry or are very nervous or have laryngitis or even sometimes stutter, it’s random.

      I don’t have faith that an AI would read my speech impediment as anything other than some kind of flaw.

  66. Bilateralrope*

    I’ve now done more than 2 months of 60+ hour weeks, with no end in sight for reasons beyond my employers control. So time to go job hunting.

    Two questions:
    How do I write up my work history for my CV when I’ve had 3 main sites, along with a lot of one off sites* ?
    Especially when the one off sites are ones where most of the interesting stuff happened.

    *sometimes covering sick leave. Sometimes a client had a unexpected need for a guard.

    Any suggestions of what kinds of jobs I could look into other than security work ?
    Anything with food handling is out due to a skin condition I have.

    1. zora*

      I am by no means an expert, but have you looked into property/building management companies? We have security people who run the front desk of our office building, but they all have very regular 40hr/week schedules.

      Also for your job history, these are different sites but all with the same company, right?
      So, it’s like:

      Security Personnel, XYZ Security Company
      2018-2019
      – Security personnel for various building sites
      – [Then some bullets about what you did and try to sort of describe how well you did it.]

      1. Bilateralrope*

        The sites are different clients of my employer. The way the law is around who can run a security company here, most organizations who want security guards get them through a security company. One security company can have a range of contracts from sitting in a car all night at school worried about vandalism to guarding embassies of foreign countries. Some clients are happy with the background check required to get your security license, others want more specific checks.

        My employer prefers to give regular hours where possible. All those one offs are because something came up that prevented that, they asked if I wanted to work an extra shift and I said yes. Which led to being asked more often for any site I was able to work. My current situation is different, but I’m not going to elaborate.

        The main sites I worked were very different to each other, with different responsibilities. The one off sites had greater variety.

      2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Yes, I second Zora’s suggestion. If they vary, just enumerate out, like: Security personnel for jewelry store, bank, cemetery, and hospital sites.

        1. Bilateralrope*

          Those I can all catch with a search for security (making sure to exclude IT security results) and, like I said above, are likely to be with the same security companies. The law here discourages companies from directly employing their own security guards. The only places here that I know of that directly employ them are military bases, but those jobs will still come up if I search for security.

          I’m mainly asking to see if there are any career changes worth considering. Things that won’t come up if I search for security.

  67. Bee*

    My friend, who I love dearly, has been job searching for the better part of a year with a few interviews but no luck. She has no interest in any constructive criticism about her cover letter or resume (both could be improved and I’ve offered to help with them but she’s turned me down), nor does she show interest in job postings I’ve sent to her. She complains about her job search constantly and it’s getting to the point where I have no idea what to say to her except canned platitudes about “the right thing coming around eventually”. This isn’t a friendship ending thing at all, I just really don’t know what to say at this point when she complains about the search, because she immediately shuts down any practical suggestions. Anyone have any advice on how to continue being supportive in a real way without being able to give actual advice?

    1. Arctic*

      I think some people just want to vent and receive sympathy without getting advice back.

      I’m the same as you. I try to offer solutions. But not everyone is looking for that. It’s a personality thing.

      If it becomes overwhelming without her accepting any feedback then it’s OK to say you can’t discuss it anymore if she won’t listen to feedback. But if it’s just sometimes I’d let her vent and be sympathetic.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Sometimes people go into an “I Give Up” mode with job searching. They don’t want help, but they want to vent. It’s almost like there’s highs and lows…you find 10 great jobs and apply to all of them, then you juggle a bunch of interviews, and then none of them pan out. So you kind of go into a depression where you just want to fester.
      I’d give your friend some time and be ready to help when she is ready to roll again.

      1. littlelizard*

        Yes, this! There’s a lot of ups and downs, and often the times you feel the worst are the times where you feel completely burnt out and hopeless in your search. Just sympathy and reassuring that something will work out is all you really need.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      In these scenarios, I tend to lean on things like “I’m sorry you’re having a tough time.” These platitudes don’t force optimism down anyone’s throat, they acknowledge that you hear the friend’s frustration, and they’re usually pretty good conversation-enders ;)

    4. fposte*

      Are you by any chance a fixer :-)? It sounds like your response has been fixing, but most people aren’t looking for repair. It’s okay if your supportive comments aren’t original–they’re mostly just about getting out the subtext that you wish her better luck and you care for her.

    6. Turtlewings*

      My sister is like this; she’d rather complain than actually do anything about her problems. When I reach the end of my patience, I tell her outright that she already knows what I think she ought to do, and I’m tired of hearing her whine instead of act. Do something about it or stop complaining to me. (Why no, we do not have the best relationship ever… Not the worse either, though.) You probably can/should be gentler about it than I am, but I think you’re well within your rights to tell her you’re tired of hearing the same complaints and it would probably be good for both of you to talk about other things.

    7. Doug Judy*

      I’ve been your friend. I was on an extended job search and while friends would offer help, often I just needed to vent. And unless you’re in a similar field, sending job links isn’t as helpful as it seems. People would send me links to jobs that I wasn’t remotely qualified for. They meant well,but they worked in totally different industries and really didn’t understand my work history and experience well enough to determine if it was a good fit or not.

      I know you want to help your friend but let her vent and then talk about something else.

    8. AcademiaNut*

      Figure out how much listening support you’re able to give, and change the subject afterwards.

      Your friend doesn’t want your help – she just wants to vent to sympathetic noises and reassurances. On the other hand, you’re not obliged to be an endless venting sponge – listening to someone complain over and over again about the same thing and not being allowed to offer advice is really draining. So saying “That sounds tough, I hope you find something soon.” and switching to other topics is a reasonable compromised.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Yup, sometimes people just want to be heard.

        If you’re tapped out on listening, it’s okay to say so. But if you just always go back and forth between fixing & being frustrated, it can actually be very freeing to *not* feel like it’s your job to jump in with solutions.

        I’m a fixer by temperament, and it was so helpful when I learned to ask, “do you want advice on this, or just listening?”

  68. ItalianBunny*

    Ok, i’m an avid fan of AAM and especially love the comments session (because it’s too easy to love Alison’s on point replies.) and here i am, asking for advice:
    I’m 36, started working at 18 but admittedly have a very spotty work history. Not long gaps but lots of different experiences, pretty much all lasted max 1yr/1yr and a half, partly due to me getting the wrong jobs, my chronic illnesses and the consolidated habit in my country to use temp contracts.
    I’ve got multiple chronic illnesses and am formally disabled on a 75% scale out of 100%.
    After the last health breakdown one year ago, i decided along with my now ex live-in boyfriend to stay home a while and look into a part time position.
    Fast forward to August, i accepted a PT position as a Receptionist (I mainly have worked as a Back Office and Receptionist admin throughout my career) which i didn’t liked much, just to get out of the house and do something productive. It went pretty well for the first month until my ex dumped me and i had to relocate 1hr from the city i was in, back to my parents.
    I still am in the probation period, i had to tell my employer i relocated and my closest co-worker know the situation i’m in atm.
    I know quitting now would be another very bad bad bad mark on my resume but i ran the math and it makes no sense for me to undergo the commute for the part-time check i’m earning, which wouldn’t sustain me renting a house of my home, fix some financial issue left by the breakup and whatnot. I’m already job searching on my own, avoiding the listings from the placement agency that got me my current job but still i don’t know how to approach it both with the placement agency and with my current employer. Tips? Suggestions?

    1. CM*

      I would just tell them you can’t do it — you apologize, but your personal situation has changed very unexpectedly, and you know that you’re putting them in a bad situation but unfortunately there is no way that financially and medically you can make this work.

      I think it would help to give them as long a notice period as they want, if you can swing it for a while — like, if you could say you’re willing to stay on for up to 2 months, that would show that you’re trying your best, and would give them some transition time.

      1. ItalianBunny*

        I’d have to think about how long of a notice i could eventually give.
        The regulation here says that during probation both of the parties may rescind with no notice but as long as i don’t have another job lined up i could ideally carry on, even tho it would be a stretch of my already messed up finances. (but emotionally better than staying at my parent’s all day long doing nothing but jobsearch. that’s a given.)

        1. valentine*

          If you’re paying to work, you’re digging a hole you may not escape. If you’d be home alone and that’s not good for you, where can you go during the day that costs little or nothing? A library or park? Maybe your ex would help you? (And, for your next relationship, establish an exit fund for whoever has to move.) Can you find roommates or a shared home?

          1. ItalianBunny*

            Not to the point where i’m paying to work, but really isn’t sustainable.
            If i’d be home i could go to a library, make walks, there are possibilities, while i job search, besides lingering at home.
            As far as my ex goes…i don’t want to ask him anything. I don’t want him to know and, since he didn’t wanted to talk, i doubt he’d be up for anything. (Definetely have learned to etablish an out way for my next relationship, that’s sure.)
            I’m looking for even shared homes and roommates, but the rates are the same of a single home, tbh and, until i can’t find a FT position, i wouldn’t be able to afford it, as i live in the mot expensive area of the country.

  69. Jack Be Nimble*

    I’m trans and had a coworker ask me a series of seriously inappropriate questions yesterday. I’m in HR, so I met with my director this morning, and I’ll be meeting with her boss on Monday to discuss the matter and figure out what our next steps are. The rude coworker is aggressive and known to hold a grudge, so this is far from the first incident of bad behavior from her. She’s apparently going to be spoken to regarding some other comments she made in meetings this week, so I’m hoping to get an apology and see some improved behavior from her!

    Also, if you were wondering if it’s okay to ask a trans person if they’re getting “the surgery,” it isn’t. Just avoid asking your coworkers about their medical treatment, especially if the medical treatment involves their genitals!

    1. CM*

      Sorry that happened to you — but it’s great that you weren’t thrown for a loop, and you know exactly how to handle it. So weird that people feel entitled to ask you intrusive personal questions at work.

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        My coworkers have been mostly wonderful, welcoming and supportive! With this one exception, I couldn’t ask for a better bunch. The rude coworker is just….a special case. She’s a real missing stair, but there have been some encouraging institutional changes, so I’m optimistic about things moving forward!

    2. Amber Rose*

      I’m so sorry. I have no idea what goes through the mind of someone who thinks asking that kind of thing is at all OK.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Frankly, no one should ever ask anyone about their genitals. I don’t know why people think it is ok to ask invasive questions because someone is transitioning, or in a wheelchair, or otherwise outside the strict definition of ordinary. Manners, people.

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        Right? If you wouldn’t ask a cis, able-bodied coworker if they were getting a hysterectomy or vasectomy, you shouldn’t ask your trans or disabled coworkers about the function and status of their genitals!

        Personally, I prefer to think that everyone at work (myself included) is just completely smooth under their clothes, like Barbie.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          I do that too! I think that everyone is like Alan Rickman in Dogma unless I’m forced to think otherwise.

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Yes please.

          I think I’ve said at least once that as far as work is concerned, I would like my coworkers to please regard me as a very useful brain in a jar equipped with typing fingers.

        3. Jamie*

          When I had to take time off for a hysterectomy I was asked by my (male) boss if it was going to start my menopause early and if I was keeping my ovaries.

          I’m with you – when it comes to work everyone is Ken and Barbie for all I care.

        4. LilySparrow*

          I don’t think “if you wouldn’t ask x,…” is a useful standard. Because a lot of them would. And do.

      2. LKW*

        This! I want to know nothing of anyone’s parts. Maybe their appendix if they are running a fever and have pain their side.

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        I’ll give people in the adult film industry a pass, but everyone else should keep it above board :P

    5. ..Kat..*

      She needs to be explicitly told that she cannot retaliate against you for reporting this. And if she does retaliate, management needs to put an immediate stop to it.

      Sorry that you are having to deal with this.

      Good luck.

  70. Allypopx*

    This issue was brought to me and I have NO idea how to address it so I’m hoping someone has advice I can pass along.

    My friend and her husband recently (within the last year) moved to Nevada from Alabama so she can go to grad school. Her husband is having a hard time finding a job, and it’s clearly because of his accent. He’ll get interviews, but once he’s brought in he’ll be rejected on the spot. One place outright told him they need someone who can ‘speak properly’. He was hired at a major clothing retailer, and found out later he was a ‘diversity hire’ because the hiring manager thought he was ‘slow’. When he heard other team members making fun of his accent behind his back he quit on the spot and complained to corporate. I guess the whole management team at that store was fired, which is great, but he wasn’t offered his job back.

    My suggestion was that he do some speech training and try to neutralize his accent as much as possible (with heavy emphasis that he shouldn’t HAVE to, but, he needs a job). Apparently he did that, but even small slips still screw him over. He applied for a job at a major car dealership for a backend paperwork processing position – zero customer interaction, accent will not impact him at all. Things seemed to be going really well until he said “oil” in a casual sentence, pronouncing it “ohl” instead of “oi-el”. To me that sounds super minor, but apparently the hiring manager made fun of him for it and the interview ended almost immediately after that.

    He’s so disheartened, and angry, and feels stupid and useless, and all the normal severe depression symptoms you’d expect from a series of such personal rejections. I don’t know what advice to offer. Has anyone dealt with this? Any advice at all? He just wants a job, he doesn’t care much what it is at this point, but all avenues seem to end the same way.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      The President of my company is from the deep south and he kind of leans into it – makes little jokes about talking slow but thinking fast, how being the “good ‘ol boy” has led to a few great deals for the company because people underestimate him. I’d tell him to own it and make a little joke of being the 3rd greatest attraction in Nevada – the strip, Hoover Dam, and the Southern Boy with the funny drawl.
      Also look into the service industry – a Southern Gentlemen would appeal to many companies looking for the extra bit of class as there is still a thing about gentlemanly manners being a much bigger thing in the south.

      1. Allypopx*

        I do like that approach, but I think it probably works better when you’re higher up and established than when you’re trying to get a foot in the door and people think you’re stupid.

        1. valentine*

          he quit on the spot
          Here’s his problem. He should hold his horses when the abuse starts and give things like a complaint or a request to can it a chance, as well as giving it a chance to die down. It’s weird for this many people to go so wild over an accent that this guy can’t work at any of these places. Is hubs making too big a deal out of it? Did the dealership manager not want him or was it hubs’ response to being made fun of that killed the interview?

          1. WellRed*

            +1. This is on him. When ‘everybody’ is the problem, it generally means ‘you’ are the problem. Plenty of people with southern accents move places and get jobs just fine.

          2. Parenthetically*

            I would say that was his problem except that he was hired as a “diversity hire” because the manager thought he was developmentally disabled due to his accent. Once you find out that management thinks you’re “slow” because of your accent, I can absolutely see mockery based on that accent being the final straw.

    2. Parenthetically*

      This sucks so much. I’ve definitely got my fingers crossed for him. What a bummer.

      I actually think CupcakeCounter’s suggestions are good even for trying to get his foot in the door, because it’s so disarming, while putting up a big flashing neon sign that reminds people not to be discriminatory assholes. Have you heard of the literary trope Lampshading? It was my first thought. Your friend needs to lampshade the accent because he’s asking interviewers to suspend their (gross, discriminatory) disbelief about people with southern accents being stupid.

      Even little things like, “I’m new around here… obviously!” and “Just let me know if you need me to repeat anything — I can’t talk much slower but I’m learning a Nevada accent as best I can!” said with a chuckle come across as canny and equalizing.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I had a college professor who had a similar experience when he moved from the South to New York for graduate school. An Acting teacher told him his basic problem was that he really didn’t move his mouth when he spoke, and gave him some diction lessons and exercises. (He showed us some of the exercises – exaggerated pronunciation, stretching his jaw muscles, etc. and had us try them. Some actually caused soreness – who knew you use so many muscles to speak?) As he became a college professor he obviously wasn’t doomed, but he told this story to illustrate how the way one speaks can hurt their chances for jobs and other things. Don’t know if this will help friend’s husband, but at least he’ll know he isn’t the only one to have to go through this.

    4. Ophelia*

      My mother had a similar issue when she first moved from a suburb of Boston to southern California. Apparently some people can’t understand a heavy New England accent. :) It took her YEARS of hard, active work at speaking with no accent before it became natural to do it with minimal effort, and even then she reverts to a much heavier accent when she relaxes. It was easier for her to adopt an uppity Boston accent that seemed to impress people rather than make them think she’d have her dirty cop brother take care of business.

      I think that as disingenuous as it is, your friend needs to embrace and lean in on the stereotype and adopt the “good ol’ boy” attitude of being everyone’s friend and pal. Once he starts working and bringing in money, he will feel better about himself and can start practicing on YouTube videos for reducing an accent.

    5. Going Anon Here*

      Yes! Funny story, actually. My family is from New York going back many generations. But, because of my father’s work, we lived in a southern city when I was growing up.

      I thought my whole family had a speech impediment and that I had inherited it. I thought they/we used different expressions and had certain cultural quirks because we were just weird. I started kindergarten unable to pronounce “r” or “th” in the common American way. I was made fun of, told to “go back to where you come from,” and told that I was “slow.”

      So, over time, I learned how to talk more like a Californian. But that caused people to think I was pretentious because, I guess, it was obvious that I was making an effort to talk in a proper-sounding way instead of just relaxing. But when I did relax, people would judge me in even worse ways.

      I finally moved to NYC. I don’t consistently talk in a local accent because I have lived all over. But I no longer make an effort to talk in a certain way. And when my accent does come out, people seem to find it charming. “You have a Brooklyn accent!” “Yes, I do!”

      I didn’t even realize what a huge source of stress this had been until it was gone. I can talk without being judged negatively and considered offensive. I can relax. I no longer have to think about how I’m pronouncing things while I’m talking. I can talk loudly. I can say things loudly in my original accent and I blend right in. And I feel so much happier because of this.

      So, I can relate to what your friend is going through. I’ve had some similar experiences. I think that openly taking pride in where you come from, or at least talking about it right away, is a good option. Right away, point out that you’re from a different place and you have an accent, share some interesting info about that place, and say that you’re happy to be in Alabama. Or where ever you are.

      It was weird (pronounced with a soft r) for me, having an accent that I got from my family and not from the city where we lived and where I went to school. I couldn’t say I was from somewhere else. I didn’t know why we were different. If I had known, I would have just embraced it and talked about it really openly. Same with jobs later on. I didn’t fully realize how strong my accent was until I actually lived in the place it comes from and was recognized as a local instead of being told, “You’re not from around here.” Oh, and I got, “You’re a Ramone,” a few times. Unfortunately not meant in a kind way, but I take it as a compliment. Pretty funny.

      1. Allypopx*

        Seeing this late but I LOVE this story. I bounced around between new england and Virginia in my formative language days so I’ll have some words slip out semi-canadian, or Bostonian, or southern as the case may be and people can never tell where I’m from and make a lot of assumptions. I enjoy it too, even when it’s unkind.

    6. LGC*

      Okay, so – this is super late, but I’ve been thinking about this since you posted. But…how quickly does your friend’s husband speak? That might be the reason for the misperceptions.

      Part of what I picked up on was that they’re from the Deep South (Alabama), but living in a state that people from all over the country move to (Nevada). So if his speaking speed is relatively slow, people (especially from a “faster” area of the country, like the Northeast) might assume that he’s slow. (Which is extremely problematic for so many reasons.) And modifying his accent might actually exacerbate that, if he has to think about pronunciation.

      If he’s not easily understandable (which…I don’t think he is, and I don’t think you or your friend would be the best judge of anyway since you know him well), then disregard this.

      (Source: From New Jersey, just outside NYC. I probably speak about average speed for an American…which is kinda slow for people around here! I used to get really impatient with one of my friends who just draaaaaws ouuut eeeeveery woooooord. I still get impatient with him sometimes, but mostly because he also has a habit of monopolizing conversations as well!)

      1. Allypopx*

        I’m from Boston and I speak a million miles a minute and I’ve never found him difficult to speak to, but I don’t have a huge amount of context for how he might speak in a job interview or something like that where he’s trying to be careful. But it *seems* like he’s able to speak at a ‘normal’ speed when he puts an effort into it and it’s a bit of a regional bias (things being okay until he said oil, for instance, in that one example). It’s perfectly possible that before that one big incident at Big Retailer he wasn’t being as conscious of it though, I’ll mention to his wife to pay attention to that while they’re practicing. Thank you!

  71. Another Manic Monday*

    I quit my federal government job yesterday because I was denied a promotion that I should have been given. I was basically being discriminated against by HR for having a disability. I did turn in a formal EEO complaint against HR this morning. I think that I got a strong case for unlawful discrimination.

    Anyhow, I’m starting a new federal government job on Monday with a different agency. I’m getting a 38% pay raise, so I will be good no matter what. I saw the writing on the wall four months ago and decided to get an “insurance policy” and it paid off.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Congratulations! I’m sorry about the garbage at your last job, and I hope the EEO complaint goes well.

      Good luck with your new job!

  72. Jay*

    Any success stories about negotiating more PTO/vacation time/sick time when getting a new job?

    I’m fine with my salary but am desperate for more time off, but don’t want to come across lazy.

    1. CM*

      I always ask for an extra week! Just like that — “Would it be possible to have X weeks of vacation instead of X-1?” after getting the offer. It is kind of a big ask, and usually not the type of thing they can agree to in a quick phone conversation because they have to check internal policies. In my last job, I got the extra week! In the one before, they said no because vacation was standard, but offered me a small salary bump instead and also assured me I could work from home whenever I needed to. This job was the least successful vacation negotiation — they said they have absolutely no flexibility on vacation because it’s 100% standard across the company and based on seniority, with no exceptions. I asked again later in the process, when they were confirming the offer details after I had negotiated salary, “And I just wanted to confirm, no flexibility on getting additional vacation, right?” and they said no. I think it’s always worth asking. In some cases employers can’t be flexible on salary and are happy to give you more vacation instead.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yeah, I think it is fine to ask. As long as you aren’t right out of school with no experience, I think it is fair to ask for more vacation.

  73. Quill*

    Folks, I have job search questions, that I’m trying to distill.

    1) I like my job fine, but it’s contract and therefore unreliable: I’ve been trying to get a direct hire job for a while in my area, no dice.

    2) By late november I will have to move. If I stay in town, I can keep my contract job, if I move cross country to be with family I will obviously have to look for a job again.

    3) the nature of my contract is that they can dump me at any time in reality, but they said it was for 1 year, which is due in May: if they let me go then I’m not eligible for unemployment, if they do it before, I am. Renting being what it is, I’m probably going to be stuck in a year’s lease if I stay where I am.

    So, advice on 1) finding a direct hire job here or there in the 6 months, 2) searching for an apartment would be greatly welcome.

    1. Bertha*

      To me this doesn’t seem to be as much about job searching as it is about life choices, but maybe that’s what makes it so challenging. Do you have other reasons to be near family, or would it be to save money? Are you more likely to get a direct hire job near your family? What’s the market like? Do you WANT to live there, or do you want to stay where you are?

      If you want to stay where you are, I’d just stay where you are. Find a small/cheap place, and know that you might have the possibility to sublet it (I have no idea where you are, so this might not be a possibility). Or heck, you could sublet someone else’s place if you didn’t want a full year commitment.

      Without knowing where you are, it’s hard to give advice on job searching or apartment hunting! I had a contract position once that kept getting extended and it ended up being for 1.5 years. My husband has currently been contracting for three years. That could be extended, or if you are going through an agency (like both of us did), they could give you another assignment. It all depends.

    1. Anon Librarian*

      I tried it for a month and it was not worth it for me. Obviously, it depends on your field and what you’re looking for.

  75. Networking on behalf of family*

    I’m looking for advice about setting up an informational interview on behalf of my husband, who’s about a year away from finishing his PhD in a field that’s sorta related to mine. (Let’s say I’m a tea flavor engineer and he’s studying teapot spout design). My company and others in our industry have occasional openings for spout engineers, and both he and I think he’s fairly qualified for those role. (This is my professional opinion, and I’d say the same for someone I’m not in a relationship with.) But he is an academic, not an engineer, and he wants to start some side personal projects to get him more qualified for the spout engineer roles.

    I don’t directly work with the spout engineers, his desired group, but I could get him their email. The goal would be to set up a meeting between Husband and one of the spout engineers so they could go over his research, talk about his qualifications, and figure out what he can improve on (example, his research is on spout shapes but a good spout engineer can do shapes and materials, so he needs to study up on materials). He’s not going to start looking for jobs for another year, so this really would be an informational interview, and Husband said he’ll be upfront about this.

    My questions are, since this is basically me asking other people to do a favor on my husband’s behalf:

    (1) Should I say it’s my husband? We have different last names, so I could plausibly say “I have a friend who wants to get into X field, can you talk to them” but in previous posts Allison has recommended full disclosure.
    (2) Should I write the introductory email, or should I just pass the email along to Husband and have him go from there?
    (3) I’m feeling reluctant to reach out to the group at my company, probably because I don’t know them personally so I don’t know how they’d react to Husband. If he’s not prepared for the interview, it might look badly on me as well as him? And I feel less bad about bugging people from other companies. If it’s a contact at another company, the favor-for-a-friend-of-a-friend seems less weird to me. Plus, I don’t think Husband and I should work at the same company. Is this weird?
    (4) Do people have advice about writing this kind of email in general? I feel like I could have this conversation in person pretty easily, but it’s hard to convey the right “I realize this is a favor, no pressure if you’re too busy” tone in writing.

    Thanks!!

    1. Kathenus*

      My thoughts below:

      (1) Should I say it’s my husband? We have different last names, so I could plausibly say “I have a friend who wants to get into X field, can you talk to them” but in previous posts Allison has recommended full disclosure.

      I think you should say it’s your husband, because if you don’t and they realize later it could seem like you were actively avoiding it and being dishonest, which could be awkward.

      (2) Should I write the introductory email, or should I just pass the email along to Husband and have him go from there?

      If it was me I’d pick one person, or depending on the culture of your organization and its email etiquette possibly the group, and send one email saying a very brief summary of what you mention here re your husband wanting an informational interview, and for them to let you know if anyone is available and willing. Then if someone emails back you could email a thank you and cc your husband, mentioning that they can now speak directly. I do not think you should give out anyone’s email contact to your husband without their permission.

      (3) I’m feeling reluctant to reach out to the group at my company, probably because I don’t know them personally so I don’t know how they’d react to Husband. If he’s not prepared for the interview, it might look badly on me as well as him? And I feel less bad about bugging people from other companies. If it’s a contact at another company, the favor-for-a-friend-of-a-friend seems less weird to me. Plus, I don’t think Husband and I should work at the same company. Is this weird?

      The fact that he’s not looking now and won’t be for a while helps in that it’s more obvious that this is truly an informational interview request not someone trying to get an in for a job. Your concerns about reaching out are why I strongly recommend you send only one email and make sure someone is willing to do this, or that you drop it if no one responds, that way you’re not pressuring anyone or bugging them multiple times for this. If you think it’s even somewhat likely that your husband won’t be prepared then don’t do it, because you’re right that it could reflect badly on you.

      (4) Do people have advice about writing this kind of email in general? I feel like I could have this conversation in person pretty easily, but it’s hard to convey the right “I realize this is a favor, no pressure if you’re too busy” tone in writing.

      I think acknowledging this is a favor, and that no pressure if it doesn’t work for any reason is a great concept to include in the email. Do you have any work friends who might know someone in this department better who could serve as a conduit to a more direct contact person versus you cold-emailing them out of the blue? But generally one email, with lots of ways to opt out and the ‘no pressure’ being explicitly noted, shouldn’t be a problem unless you have concerns about how your husband would represent himself in the meeting. Good luck.

    2. Clisby*

      I might be a total outlier here, but the idea of trying to set up an informational interview for my husband would be a giant NOPE for me. No. Not ever.

      I wouldn’t mind giving him some names/email addresses, but it would be up to him to seek informational interviews.

  76. Afiendishthingy*

    Remember the manager earlier this week who wanted to hire a temp for $10 an hour even though the person they’d be covering for made $25/hr? I feel like I applied to that job this week. I applied before I realized the posted pay was $90-$125/day for this maternity leave coverage position. The position requires a specialized certification which I would say requires about the same amount of blood, sweat and tears as an RN, and our pay is comparable to RNs. They emailed asking if I wanted to interview so I asked if the posted pay was correct, as it worked out to $11-$16 an hour. Manager replied “there’s some flexibility but I can’t give an exact number or range. Want to interview?” I said “I don’t need exact figures but the market pay for an experienced Certified Llama Trainer in this area would be more like $300-400 a day. If that’s very far from what you have in the budget, I’d rather not move forward.” She responded that their ceiling was $200-250 a day so I said thanks but no thanks.

    1, Why would you post a range that’s HALF of what’s actually budgeted, for any other reason than you’re hoping to take advantage of INCREDIBLY clueless people?

    2,ugh, so insulting, and it’s a city job in a VERY wealthy town.

    1. Introvert girl*

      Had this two weeks ago, got contacted (for the second time, but this time through an Agency) concerning a job for a very well known british company. They were offering 4o% of what I’m making currently and I’m at the lower level of the market price for my position. I don’t get these companies either.

  77. Sighhhh*

    Could I get some advice on how to deal with a close coworker/friend after changing roles? We have been working for the same company together for two years now, and started with different roles on different teams that didn’t require too much collaboration, and became close friends over that time. She moved up to our HO in a different position, and I did as well 6 months later, and we were both thrilled with the realization that our jobs are now a lot more cross-functionally collaborative. However, I’ve started to realize that she actually has a very frustrating attitude towards work, which is straining both our work tasks and our friendship.

    Not to give away too much of what we do, but we’re on different teams that depend on each other to function (I’m a manager of sourcing teapots and she works on the technological side of executing teapot design/website function). Part of both of our jobs requires me following up on tasks and deadlines of projects that she completes for our dept., as well as very small projects or (very rarely) favors that are squarely and absolutely within both of our job descriptions. Any time I propose a deadline, mention a looming task, ask about how something is coming along, or mention something that needs fixing or extra time, she complains, stalls, and drags her feet. She insists she doesn’t have time to do anything, that she needs another team member, that it’s all too much for her, and gets a certain “tone” (“well alllllllright, I guess if you neeeed it, i guess i havvvvve to do it, got no choice i guess”), and will be brusque with me for the rest of the day. I’m not her manager, I’m just a collaborator–she hates her manager, so she gets doubly frustrated if I ‘cc him or loop him in on deadlines. Yes, she has a full workload, but her constant complains have made me start to side eye all the vacations she takes and times she leaves early, which never used to bother me. I’m starting to lose my patience…I have lots of asks of me as well! Can anyone offer some perspective? I don’t want to ruin the friendship by just literally trying to do my job.

    1. pancakes*

      A tricky situation, but considering you are close, I think 1) that hopefully gives you good chance of talking about this candidly with her and 2) at the same time, necessitates taking a broader look at it in an effort to avoid bias. Do other people in her department or yours have trouble meeting deadlines? Asking her whether things have changed while she’s been in the position might be a good opening to talk about it. You could say something along the lines of, “I wasn’t anticipating it being this challenging to meet deadlines. Are we short-staffed, you think? Or is there a process that needs to be more realistic?” It would probably be good to frame this as something you want to get sorted out for your own sake and for the company’s sake rather than for the sake of getting along with her, such that the work flow or staffing might be an obstacle rather than her being an obstacle. It’s entirely possible she is the obstacle, but maybe not. If she is, hopefully the process of talking about this and ruling out staffing problems, etc., will lead to a light bulb going off for her about her own mindset.

    2. Clisby*

      “Yes, she has a full workload, but her constant complains have made me start to side eye all the vacations she takes …”

      What do her vacations have to do with anything? If she’s accrued the vacation time, she’s entitled to take it.

    1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

      I just had my third call with a career coach the other day. I find them helpful when I need an objective opinion about a work problem. Since I’ve continued working with the same coach, she knows my history and provides useful advice. I found her through The Muse.

    2. Lyudie*

      I found one through the pro finder thing on LinkedIn (don’t know if they still have that). She was okay, not sure she was super helpful but she did help me sort of clarify in my mind that I definitely did need a change and what that should be. She had been in HR for years so had good tips for resumes and interviews…I didn’t do mock interviews with her but that was something that a lot do. I would say give it a shot.

  79. NotAPirate*

    Hey, I have some concerns/reservations about unpaid program that’s supposed to turn into a job offer after 2-3 months. Has anyone done the insight fellow program for health data scientist? It’s free to attend but you don’t get paid during it.

    Program takes applications, interviews, etc, runs 8 weeks where you mostly learn from peers in the program it sounds like and meet lots of people (network with some really big name companies). You generate a project and then that project is what you present to the companies involved at the end of the 7 weeks. There’s a thing you sign saying you won’t seek outside job offers, only in the program. As well as wording that you won’t work elsewhere during the program. They have some pretty big names linked to them company wise, and claim really high placement rates. But it would mean needing to move to Boston, then trying to support myself for those 8 weeks somehow with no absolute timeline for when new job would start. They have some scholarship for housing/relocation costs but you can only apply for it after being accepted into the program, and there’s nothing about how few/many people get it.

    I got through the first round of application, but the more I dig into this the weirder it seems to me? Is this normal for jumping from academia to industry?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I don’t know about that specific program, but Data Scientists are in such demand (See Eric’s post above) that recruiters will be beating down your door if you have a little bit of experience and some schooling. I’m “just” a healthcare data analyst and I’ve had recruiters trying to get me into a data science roll when I don’t have those skills. So I don’t know why you would need to take the risk using the program, healthcare systems are begging for data scientists and will pay to train you in the areas you need extra help with.

      1. NotAPirate*

        Hey thanks! (Sidenote I love the * function now). That’s really reassuring to read and hear.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      I think this was the one my former colleague did (or at least the one for physical scientists), in the Silicon Valley area, aimed at preparing PhD scientists for data science work?

      If so, it was a good move. She got a job with a major, established tech company doing a analytics right out of it (you’d recognize the name immediately) at ~100K salary, and is doing well. It does seem to be fairly competitive to get in – another former colleague applied but didn’t.

    3. pancakes*

      I should hope it’s free to attend—it sounds to me like an efficient way to harvest free labor! Are there any protections against the companies that participate taking ownership of any (or all) intellectual property generated by the project? Lack of information about how many people do in fact get scholarships for housing seems like a red flag to me. I can’t think of a good reason to not be straightforward about that.

  80. Cranky Person*

    I’m kind of cranky.
    So my employer is going through some upheaval right now. I know my job is secure at least for a couple of years (I do several essential functions that other people are not properly cross trained on…working on that though) as the time it would take to shutter this operation or consolidate into a parent company would take years due to a union contract.
    Management claims they are being as transparent as they can be, and I do believe they are, but the problem is…nobody knows the answers to some very basic questions. Things like who can sign checks or approve expenses over $100k. These are things required to run a business (my subsidiary on its own is around $1b in revenue/year so not small) and things are just going around and around in circles and not getting taken care of because the executives who need to make these decisions are in a closed door retreat meeting (that is costing the company around $50k+ for travel, meals, and lodging since it is offsite).
    People are rightly annoyed and concerned about their jobs. The last few people to leave haven’t been back filled, no raises or COL happened this year, and we don’t have laptops or WFH ability even though our counterparts at the other companies do.
    Obviously I am looking for a job but I got caught rolling my eyes in a meeting today because of an “employee engagement fair” announcement consisting of the local big warehouse store bringing in some samples and signing us up for memberships at a “highly discounted rate”, the gym a couple miles away wrangling for new members (also at a HUGE discount per the flyer, and the local pharmacy is going to be administering flu shots on site. Only the flu shots have any benefit as far as I am concerned but with our insurance we can walk in to the pharmacy, a whole mile from the office, and get them for free at any time. They are only bringing enough for the first 75 people…in a 400 person office.
    I am not feeling engaged or appreciated.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      That is definitely cranky-making.

      I suspect there’s an extremely good chance that you will continue not to feel engaged or appreciated, so this may be a really good time to take advantage of your job security to do some serious job hunting for The Perfect Fit (or at least The Much Better Fit).

      Sorry it’s so stinky.

  81. Aunt Vixen*

    tl;dr: YAY! Sometimes self-advocacy really does pay off.

    Long version: I work on a small team of contractors embedded in a federal office. Our smallish company is a subsidiary of what turns out to be a pretty big company, which is headquartered in another state. A couple of months ago, I asked our offsite contract supervisor if I could recommend an addition to our suite of health care options for the next open enrollment period (or the one after that). The option I wanted is an HMO that has no presence in the state where the company is headquartered or in about a thousand-mile radius, but it’s available here where I live and also in a number of areas where they have other employees (in this and other subsidiary companies); I explained why it could be valuable to a number of people for a variety of reasons and sent along the link to where the people who make those sorts of decisions could get in touch with the salesfolk at the HMO and work out a group plan that might suit us, and along with this year’s open enrollment announcement my boss let us know that the plan will be offered in 2021. That is, I was too late for this year’s open enrollment – but they heard the question, considered it, and took action.

    I am thrilled. Nothing in my lived experience had led me to expect that corporate higher-up types would have any interest in what employees half a continent away wanted, much less change company-wide anything to suit (depending on how grouchy I was feeling) (a) some but not all employees or (b) anyone other than themselves. But I mean obviously we weren’t going to get this other medical plan offered if nobody asked about it; and it turns out what’s likely is that the other-state folks *didn’t* say “shpff, what expensive nonsense do those kids on the coasts want now” but rather “huh, I’ve never heard of that, let’s look into it” and now here we are.

    Being able to sign my family up with this medical plan will improve my loyalty to this job immeasurably. I am so happy. Hooray for identifying what you want, making a case for it, and actually getting it. Who knew?!

  82. Chili*

    I posted last week about having trouble asking for help as a new associate software engineer. I want to thank people for their advice! I posted while I was really in my feelings about the matter, so the situation is realistically not as dire as I made it out to be. I talked to my direct manager about it and she gave some really great advice and offered to help me get tuition reimbursement sorted so I can start taking engineering courses at a local university. She told me having university engineering background isn’t a requirement of the job, but as another woman in tech she totally understands my desire to have formal training and credentials to feel competent. She also reassured me that my team lead is just a bit of an awkward dude and there’s probably no real tension, but I did take the initiative to set up a biweekly 1:1 with him to make sure I’m on track and performing to his expectations.

    1. Engineer Girl*

      So happy to hear this! It sounds like, in spite of the job title, that your job is a programming job and not an engineering job. Shame on your employer for using misleading titles!
      You had a multi-prong problem that requires a multi-prong solution. It looks like they addressed the issues correctly.
      I don’t know if you want to use the tuition reimbursement for an engineering discipline or for a boot camp (programming discipline). Have fun figuring it out. The tuition reimbursement is great!

  83. Mindy St Claire*

    There were some strongly-worded reply all emails yesterday between a newer employee and someone with a more senior role (who is not her supervisor in any way). I am very much on team newer person, who was both more polite/professional and also right! I think the tone of the more senior person was over the line (she went so far in her reply all as to say the new person needed ‘remedial training’ in how to do her job). I am technically senior to both of them and have some pull with the manager we all share. Is it a good idea for me to say something to our manager in support of newer person? Or to the newer person? I don’t want my manager to think I am questioning whether she can judge the situation, but I do think there is value in showing that the new person has support amongst her coworkers.

    What are your thought? Should I just stay out of it?

    1. Jamie*

      If you can share your thoughts with your manager I would definitely do that.

      I wouldn’t go to the newer person to tell them I thought they were right if I had no intention of brooking it with management when I had standing to do so.

    2. Princess Scrivener*

      Since you’re senior to both, could you at least tell the more senior person it’s inappropriate to reply all to call out a new and junior employee? Don’t even mention who you think was right or wrong–just the communication tactic. Maybe in a “btw, let’s support our new peeps in a less confrontational way” kind of way?

      1. AndreaC*

        I agree with this. Taking it to the manager is maybe escalating it more than necessary. First a conversation with the senior person in the exchange would be good.

      2. AndersonDarling*

        That was my first though. It was unprofessional and immature to ridicule someone in a reply-all. I don’t even care what the circumstances are, that needed to be taken off-line or put to an end. The manager went down the road of spiteful public humiliation instead of responsible management.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          As for an action: I’d bring it to the attention of the shared manager, give your opinion, and let them take care of it.

    3. fposte*

      Without knowing the issue, it’s hard to say, but I’d stay out of it unless I had a clear idea of what my input would contribute.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would stay out of it unless your manager asks for your input or says something in setting that seemingly opens that conversation up.

      Right now this is a colleague squabble and the manager is the only one who needs to weigh in.

      If you start taking sides unsolicited, it gets really dicey and can create what appears to be bias or ganging up mentality. It’s not your circus yet, let the monkeys duke it out a bit and see what the ring master has to say about it.

    5. LawBee*

      I’d stay out of it for now unless it’s clear that new employee is having a hard time with this specifically. You don’t want to look like you’re choosing sides in what may well end up as a minor squabble.

    6. Engineer Girl*

      Telling someone they need remedial training via a “reply all” is both cruel and unprofessional.
      I’d give a heads up to your boss.

  84. JustaTech*

    How enthusiastic should I be about an opportunity for international travel for work?
    It would be a trip to Italy (yay!) the week before Christmas (less yay).
    It’s also a very needful trip, not just an excuse to travel on the company dime.

    I do want to go, but I don’t feel like I should be bouncing around enthusiastic. But at the same time I don’t want the bosses to think I don’t want to go. I also don’t want to get my hopes up too much because it might not end up happening, depending on if the PTB decide that it’s too expensive.

    1. NotAPirate*

      I’d be excited! Italy would be fun to see! One upside of the timing maybe you could get little italian gifts for people! If it doesn’t happen don’t be too disappointed, the bosses clearly think you’d be good for this type of task and you might get travel later on.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I think having a positive but not over the top enthusiastic outlook is probably best. Picture how you felt when you got a good grade on an exam that you had studied quite a bit for. I’m sure you felt pleased that you got a good grade and your hard work paid off. I’m guessing your bosses didn’t just randomly choose you for this trip, I’m sure you certainly earned it.

  85. Jan Levinson*

    I sometimes tweet funny things about coworkers on my very private (my actual name isn’t even attached) Twitter page. It’s all in good fun – I don’t tweet anything mean spirited. For instance, I tweeted yesterday, “my coworker just emailed me a customer’s email address. In a separate email, he sent me a word doc attachment. Then, he called me and asked me to email the word doc attachment to the customer.” Then I attached a “huh?”-type meme. This is something I wouldn’t be embarrassed by if this particular coworker saw (not that he ever would). He would most likely laugh at it and say, “hah, that was silly of me to do!”

    Anyway, after I tweeted it, I thought, “huh, I wonder if any of my coworkers are on Twitter and poke fun at coworkers.” (most of them are older, so I didn’t expect to find much.) However, I DID find one of my coworker’s Twitter who is around my age (mid 20’s). His second tweet done from a couple of days ago read:

    “We made it to fall, but someday turned the heat up to 80 at work today. (wincing smiley face).” This tweet is about me, ya’ll! 1. He’s exaggerating, I turned it to 76, and 2. Where I sit in the office is a particularly cold spot (it’s just the way the vents are set up in our office (he knows this, too…people commonly walk by my office and comment on how cold my area is!) At first, I didn’t know whether to laugh, or be offended, but I think I’m going to go with laugh. He’s actually a very nice guy, and we get along well. Additionally, he had a couple funny tweets about my manager bringing in her kids’ baby teeth to show everyone when they lost their first teeth, and another one about how she loves playing the lottery and is sure that “with enough prayer, she’ll win someday”. By the way, these were his only three tweets about work over the past few years, so he’s not constantly complaining or bashing coworkers.

    I didn’t actually find any of these tweets offensive. Just shows we all have quirks that might bug others, but (at least in my office!) we’re all decent humans who work well together. What do others think? Would you be offended if your coworker tweeted this about you?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think we all sub-tweet at some point about either work colleagues or IRL people that aren’t on our social media feeds. The reality is that yeah, some day those people may find it.

      True story, I had an online journal that’s ages old. Ancient. One of my friends one day decided to dig way back. Way before they had a journal of their own. I’m talking years in a blog that has thousands of entries because I was deep into online journaling as a young 20 something. Of course they found the entries that alluded to themselves and it spiraled into crazyville. Because me at 21 was not fully developed let alone the sharpest tool in the internet tool shed *face desk*

      I have had facebook memories pop up that I have deleted even because a few years later, I see them as over the top and easily misconstrued by someone 5 years removed.

      I wouldn’t be offended, I’ve had plenty of things said about me by anon groups over the years. As long as it’s not “She thinks we’re friends but I wanna punch her in the face.” kind of mean girl stuff. But silly stories about me or poking fun at me being bundled in 25 layers on a warm to them day, meh such is life. Those are things I’d say outloud to people so I don’t mind if they share.

      This reminds me of how my mother will end up screaming “Do not tweet about that!” and guess who just got tweeted about. =X

      1. fposte*

        Not only might people find it, they’ll start subtweeting about the subtweeting. Which I guess is this comment thread too, so just assume it’s happening to anything you write somewhere.

    2. pancakes*

      I’m having a hard time seeing what could be offensive about that. 76 is very close to 80 so it’s not much of an exaggeration, and there’s nothing unfair or illegitimate about people having different temperature preferences. It’s not as if wanting to be warmer is a shameful secret in some way.

  86. Not so indeed*

    Hi! Long-time lurker, first time posting, wondering if anyone has had a similar experience…

    I applied for a remote consulting gig on Indeed a couple weeks ago, and on Tuesday was contacted by the business owner saying that she was impressed by my experience and asking for some times for a phone interview. I wrote back providing time slots within 2 hours, and then never heard back from her. Her email appeared from the name of her business, but the actual email address was a generic one generated by Indeed, like “indeed7txjklj@indeedemail” dot com. I know it’s not a scam because this person has a LinkedIn account linked to her business and her website — I think she’s just using the email platform Indeed provides to hiring managers.

    After a couple days not hearing back and starting to think it was weird, I Googled whether other people have not heard back from potential employers after simply hitting “reply” to an Indeed email. According to the forum I stumbled upon, it seems widespread, even with hiring managers posting saying things like “I always wondered by I never heard back from any candidates!”

    I decided to make a risky move and contact her through her “Contact” form on her website. I explained essentially the same situation I’ve described here as professionally as possible, and gave my direct contact info. I knew I would potentially come across as desperate, but I also thought that maybe it was a legit technical mishap.

    Nearly 24 hours have passed and I still haven’t heard from her, so I’m officially considering it a lost cause, but I’m just wondering what the heck happened.

    Anyone else have a similar experience? I’m impressed by the wisdom and experience I’ve found here. Thanks in advance!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There has been some issues with “Indeed Mail” over the last couple of years. It’s a legit system, that email will forward from Indeed Mail [you get it in your message center on the portal if you check that way] but it SHOULD also end up in your email box that’s attached to your profile. Which you can reply from.

      There’s a gap between replying from your email client through the Indeed Mail system. It used to cut off my ef’ing messages for awhile. I reported it and they’re all “LOL Nah, we are perfect and you’re just craycray gurl.”

      I. Hate. Indeed.

      Spam filters may be high on her incoming box as well and filtering or evaporating the email coming from Indeed.

      You did right by using her contact-me form. I have had to pull emails off resumes when they exist and reach out directly when Indeed Mail is being a raging hose beast.

      It sounds like this woman may be a flake though really. It could be that she’s swamped and not answering very quickly, despite the “Urgency! to! hire!” that may have been conveyed. So I would just keep checking your mail as usual but assume she’s not interested anymore to detach a bit.

      1. Not so indeed*

        Thanks so much for the answer and for affirming that I’m not crazy. Unfortunately I applied as a “guest” on Indeed before having an actual account there, so I can’t reply to her message through the Indeed inbox. The only way to reply was through my Gmail account to her Indeed Mail. Totally frustrating if those emails don’t reliably arrive.

        However, I think you’re right — if I still haven’t heard from her even after contacting her through her business website, then it’s probably not a good fit.

        Now I’m just wondering how to find more remote consulting-type gigs without using Indeed… :/

    2. pancakes*

      It could be that the 7txjklj emails are going straight to her spam folder and the inbox for the contact form on her website isn’t checked frequently. Hard to say.

  87. Michelle*

    More of a vent than a question but would still welcome suggestions. Background: A coworker who lives in my neighborhood was recently terminated. We are friends outside of work. They had been here 7 years. Every single member of the staff including the C-suite complimented their work and said they were an asset to the company. They always came in to cover if someone called off and worked overtime if needed. They were called into a meeting at the end of the day and terminated. They were told they violated a policy, but HR/manager would not clarify what policy they violated or how they violated it. They gave DOL separation notice and it said violation company policy. Everyone thinks it was a bunch of BS. We live in an at-will state so they could have just let them go and not given a reason. Coincidentally, a friend of one the manager’s favorites was hired for the position. New employee is an ok person as far as I can tell, but I don’t go out of my way to interact with them.

    So it’s been a few months now and all of the people that were in the meeting kept asking me how ex-employee is doing. At first I would just look at them for moment and then say, very flatly, “fine”. They accepted that and moved along. Recently they have been asking me again and they don’t accept the flat “fine”. They ask if they are working, where they are working, how is their health (they have a chronic health issue that required an accomodation), etc. They decided they did not want them here so why the hell do you want to know how they are doing? You lost the right to know anything about them when you terminated them and I am so TIRED of them trying to pump me for information. Whey they ask about their work or health, I say “You really need to talk to them about that”, but of course they are not going to call and ask and if they did, they would probably get hung up on. They say things like “I know you know, why can’t you say?” . I reply “It’s not really my information to share”. I wish they would just stop asking because I am not going to tell them anything.

    BTW, ex-employee/friend is doing great. They are so much happier and they have actually lost 24 pounds! Their doctor commented on how much better they seem mentally and is thrilled with the weight loss. They got a job less than a month after being terminated and they actually have 4 offers to choose from!

    1. Delta Delta*

      If it were me, and because I can be a jerk, I’d brighten up and exclaim, “amazing!” when they ask how friend is doing.

      I mean, if friend says this is ok, of course. Friend is getting awesome revenge by living well.

      1. CatCat*

        Yeah, if you and Friend would be okay with this, kind of rubbing in Friend’s success would be kind of gleeful.

        “Friend is so much better since she left this place,” said in a wistful, slightly jealous tone. No need to give specifics about friend, just things like “amazing,” “fantastic,” and “terrific” always coupled with something along the lines of comparing, “than when Friend worked here.”

        1. Adelyade83*

          The people that fired but keep asking about the former employee seem like they are either kind of mean. Or maybe they regret letting your friend go and hope to hear friend is still looking for a job and might want to come back? Either way I like the idea of letting them know how great your friend is doing!

          1. Michelle*

            Friend would never come back. They said even if offered more money or a better position they wouldn’t even consider it. They said to me the other day “You don’t really know how bad a bad job is until you get out and get a better job.”.

      2. Michelle*

        I want to say that but I know they will want details and I just don’t want to share. I also kind of like the fact that they want to know this info so bad but aren’t getting it. I don’t understand why the care!

        I figured it would eventually dribble down to them. Many coworkers say they have seen ex-employee/friend and that it is amazing how much happier they look. EE/friend admitted they really didn’t like being here anymore due to the toxic and clique-ish culture of their department and the fact that they clique got all the promotions and opportunities, but the money was good. They were looking but the way they were terminated is what is so strange. I think the manager got tipped off they were looking and they decided to terminate before they resigned.

        1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

          I think what you’ve done so far is absolutely fine, and you can keep repeating “It’s not really my information to share” as many times as it takes for them to stop asking.

        2. Blue Eagle*

          I would respond “you fired that person, I am curious why you care how they are?” just to see what they say.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      After reading all of the replies and your responses I agree with many that you need to rub their noses in it.
      “She’s doing great! Got a new job with a great culture, tons of flexibility, and much better pay & benefits. Her illness hasn’t had a single flare up since the week she left.”

      1. WellRed*

        I’d leave off the bit about illnesses but the rest of this is perfect and not sure why one wouldn’t say it.

  88. Erin (who works from home)*

    Not really a question, but something I need to vent about.

    I have a peer at work, Charlie, who manages our in-office team — I manage the remote workers, so we have similar roles but manage different people/tasks. Charlie took over an administrative task I used to do because it makes more sense for his role. He had some trouble doing the task to the expected standard at first, and since I was the one who trained him, I have been coaching him on expectations and trying to guide him to doing it correctly since I initially trained him in April.

    At the end of September, I noticed that the task wasn’t being done properly, still — the basic cycle is that once weekly, we need someone to run a script that sends a form to customers for them to complete, and then once those forms are received they need to be processed and uploaded into our database. The big things are that the script needs to be run mid-week so they have time to turn the forms in and we have time to process before the weekend hits, and it needs to be done once a week. I discovered that Charlie hadn’t run the script in well over *a month*, and that the last time he did it, he ran it at 4:00 on a Friday — so, about a half hour before he was set to leave the office.

    When I asked Charlie about it, he lied to me and said he’d been doing it all along, at the same time every week, adn that I was off-base. There is a changelog in the database that shows when things are done, so I had positive proof he was lying and took it to our mutual manager, Dee. Charlie was reprimanded, an email went out from Dee saying that this process would be done by end-of-business every day and the script would be run on Tuesdays, and it was done. Or so I thought.

    Since then, Charlie has pretty much not communicated with me unless forced to — all emails and phone calls are initiated by me, and communication is completely breaking down. I have to go around him to talk to the people he manages about things that I need done, because emailing Charlie and trusting that he will actually pass along the message has been proven to not work the last few weeks. It’s the most passive-aggressive thing I’ve ever had to deal with at work, and it’s slowly driving me crazy — plus, with all this going-around-Charlie stuff, I feel like *I’m* being passive-aggressive!

    I’ve talked to Dee and our grandboss about it, and since I’ve received the reply of, “Just trust that we’re working on this and that it won’t be like this for long,” I have a feeling things are just being worked out behind the scenes and Charlie might be leaving the company or changing positions. But in the meantime it’s very frustrating, and I hate feeling like I have to double-check his work (because if it’s inaccurate, it will affect my people, too), and I really dislike feeling like I’m being punished for tattling.

    Anyone ever dealt with a Charlie before?

    1. Adelyade83*

      I haven’t dealt with something like that before but I’ve been managed by someone like Charlie early in my career. It was so frustrating! Having someone like you who is willing to call Charlie out on his bull and do their best to work with his team, even if it means going around him, would have been great. Even if it’s more work for you while Charlie is dealt with it sounds like you are handling things well and the people you work with are lucky to have you there.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      Yup… Charlene was a peach and did my head in. To this day I don’t know why it took so long for the company to act. I know it wasn’t my boss, as she knew exactly what the problems were. I suspect that our HR was dragging their feet for whatever reason.

      Just a warning that it’s likely to get worse before it gets better. Your managers have told (in not so many words) that Charlie is on a PIP. I would not go around Charlie but continue to go through him as you normally would. Start copying the boss if you have to, or otherwise keeping them informed of things that aren’t getting out to his team like they should. Adopt a zen neutral state of mind when it comes to Charlie.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I’ve dealt with a very similar situation. It worked out because the “just trust that we’re working on this” meant that the person was moved to a different role where their incompetence no longer affected anything important. It was fine, and everyone knew it wasn’t my fault.

    4. Another JD*

      Just email Charlie and cc the person he’s supposed to talk to so you know the info is getting passed on.

      1. Erin (who works from home)*

        Just to clarify — this is what I’m doing, but what’s happening is that Charlie isn’t managing his team. I’ll email someone on his team, with Charlie CC’d, and say, “Hey, we need X done by Friday, please let me know where we stand on this,” and there’s absolutely no follow-through unless I call or email that person directly with more urgency. Some of this is due to individual members of Charlie’s team being bogged down in their workload and missing emails/being slow to respond to things, but the expectation is that Charlie should be enforcing deadlines/managing his team because of that workload, and I suspect he’s just not doing *anything*, so things are falling through the cracks. The only way things are being enforced or treated with gravity is if I go past Charlie and talk to them directly about what I need.

  89. Extra Anon For This*

    I’ve been waiting all week to post this, because I had an interaction with someone that made me think of AAM advice the whole time! A student at a local university’s law school reached out to me wanting to do some networking. I was glad to meet with her and offered suggestions I thought could help with her overall larger networking and career goals. She mentioned two things:

    1. That her work history is focused in one area, and she was concerned she may not be marketable in a broader way. She went to the career support office, and they advised her to volunteer at a firm that does different kinds of work than she’s done in her internships. I told her I could never support doing unpaid work (and this wouldn’t be a credit-based internship, either), and that it seemed like there were other ways of networking that could actually help her more. I can’t believe a career support office at a university is telling overworked law students to give free labor to for-profit businesses in the name of career support. This seems like the double whammy of “never give free labor” and “bad university career placement advice.”

    2. She also mentioned she had heard of a particular law firm that was hiring. I don’t think she knows I worked at that firm many years ago. She said she had reservations about applying there because she had heard through the grapevine that the firm is a sad and toxic place to work. I haven’t worked there in 8 years, but I know the people and I know they are, indeed, sad and toxic. Rather than confirm that it’s basically a building full of evil bees, I diplomatically told her that workplace culture is a big deal, and that she should go with what she thinks is going to be a good fit.

    1. pancakes*

      During the 2008 crash and the long recovery from it the career support office at my law school hired recent grads for envelope-stuffing jobs so the school’s “currently unemployed” stats wouldn’t look quite so bad. I took a job working at my legal writing adjunct professor’s firm the summer between my 1st and 2nd year and the entire small group of us was misled about payment until well into our first day, at which point in the summer our chances of finding better work elsewhere were very slim. For these and other reasons I’m not at all surprised that’s she’s worried about finding decent paying work.

      I don’t understand you reason(s) for not telling her that what she gleaned about your former firm is probably correct. “It’s been 8 years since I worked there but that was my sense too” would make it perfectly clear that there’s a chance things might have changed a bit in the meantime, and that she’d benefit from getting in touch with someone who’s had more recent contact. If people with direct experience at the firm can’t or won’t provide information about it to students and recent grads, who should? More broadly speaking, why should a building full of evil bees be treated as a secret? It’s not entitled to that. Not without paying people *extraordinarily* well to sign dodgy and everlasting non-disclosure agreements, at least.

  90. Don't Send Your Kids to Hudson University*

    Yesterday, I had a really good review with my new boss (there’s a long story by my boss and grand boss have effectively swapped roles it what was a long, drawn out, political and confusing transition through no fault of either — and they maintain a great professional relationship). She gave me great and positive feedback about the way I handled the transition and the uncertainty (I was basically on my own for 7 months). When the conversation turned to my career goals I was a little stumped and we had an honest and helpful conversation but it has me thinking about *how* I should figure out the answer for myself. I’m an in-house lawyer for a public university and the question was really whether my long term career goals are to be in a general counsel position, to become more focused in a particular practice area, or something else. I’m 30 and have been practicing for about 6 years. Having some clarity about the direction I want to go will help me to advocate for ownership of additional projects and tailored professional development. So how have you figured out these sorts of “where do you see your career going?” type questions?

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I have no advice, but have to tip my hat to your user name. That’s where I got my law degree.

  91. How to thaw things out?*

    My office is very small, fewer than 15 people, though we work with many outside contacts, and often have visitors. Things are sometimes very quiet and chilly here, and they used to be much friendlier. I’ve seen this chilliness contribute to some misunderstandings, and a reduction in a team mentality. A coworker of mine brought up a related issue formally in a meeting recently, indicating that she felt left out, and unsupported professionally.

    We used to have one particular employee who was outstandingly warm and friendly. She left over a year ago, and things haven’t been the same since. It’s like since she’s not chatting and joking, other people don’t stop to chat as much. It wasn’t disruptive or distracting, and I miss it. (People were always able to close their office doors if they needed to, or say they needed to get back to work)

    We have several newer employees now who choose to telework a lot, and I think this contributes to the quiet atmosphere.

    I think I’ve contributed to this change- I’m on the shyer side, and I sometimes close my office door or put in headphones so I can focus.

    We’ve also had several staff members go on diets, and a lot of our socializing used to revolve around food. Some of the folks on diets are handling it in a professional way, but some judge other people’s food, comment on others’ bodies, and call eating “being bad”. I want respect everyone’s personal food choices, and I want to avoid situations where I’m judged for how I eat. (So I’m not going to be bringing in baked goods)

    What can I do to help things thaw out and become more friendly? I’ve thought of offering to pick up food for a group lunch, from the kind of restaurant that has options for everyone. I discussed this issue with my boss (she brought it up) and she thought the lunch idea could be good.

    I don’t know if it would be weird to ask folks if they’d like to grab an afternoon coffee, different people on different days? Does anyone have any other ideas? I know this isn’t my sole responsibility to solve, but I want to do what I can.

    1. Colette*

      Both coffee and lunch sound like good ideas (although lunch might be trickier due to the money aspect if the company isn’t paying). You could also set up a regular coffee time – i.e. “I’m going to go for coffee around 1:45 every Wednesday, if anyone wants to join”. So start one-on-one, and then open it up to everyone so that they don’t feel left out.

      Depending on how much effort you want to put in, you could post a Monday Morning Trivia question or a conversational question of the day (i.e. which would you prefer, a walk through the woods in the fall or a summer day at the beach) on Slack or a white board.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      Lunch is good… as is fancy coffee if you are looking for a food alternative.

      I also like ‘opt in’ activities that aren’t painful to participate or execute. Things like basketball brackets, small decorations for different holidays and things (we have a table top tree that gets dressed up for different things- doesn’t have to be limited to holidays ex. toss some donuts on there for National donut day), football pool, DWTS pool, the masked singer guessing pool, are just a couple of ideas.

      One thing I’ve described here before is someone brought in a small puzzle, no idea where it came from but it was in the breakroom one day. Pretty soon it became a spot to wander by and chat for a few min while looking for the piece to finish the section that someone had started… Just the fact that there was a puzzle spurred chatting… “Hey who brought the puzzle… why is there a puzzle here…” It was kind of nice. Doesn’t have to be a puzzle, but they’re cheap and low commitment.

      The last thing I’d say is, is go chat with people. Even if it feels awkward because of the quiet. Find an excuse and wander over to their desk and start with some small talk.

    3. Chocolate Helps*

      How about a pot-luck lunch? Offer to coordinate, so everyone doesn’t bring the same thing, but that way the dieters can bring something they can eat. As you noted, socializing often revolves around food and as long as allergies are respected, and no one food shames (or fat shames) it could be fun.

    4. LDP*

      My team recently organized a margarita making contest for our office and it was a blast! We mainly picked margaritas because one of our coworkers has been bragging for years about how he makes the best one, so we had to put that to the test! If you could pick something that someone in your office is known for, or maybe a local treat and have everyone contribute? We didn’t make anyone participate if they didn’t want to, and most people who weren’t making margaritas brought in other snacks like queso and salsa and guacamole, so everyone got to feel included in a way. Maybe you could do a chili cook off, since it seems like most diet plans would have some variation of chili that people could make?

  92. Dee Dee*

    I’m just so exhausted with internal politics and drama. That’s about all. There’s another team whose work seems to overlap with ours in some ways. I can totally see the distinction between our accountabilities, but increasingly they’re bumping into our territory. Inevitably, this leads to issues because they’re unwilling to compromise when they do–we’ll occasionally be invited to give feedback, but it’s just an empty gesture. But now there are meetings to talk about overlapping work and possible redundancies. I’m just tired of it. I just want to do my job, and let my team do its job, without having to worry about someone getting territorial about it. We all work for the same company. Why can’t we work together?

    I’ve been lucky enough to be promoted, and I’ve heard rumblings that there’s another promotion possible in the next few months—but the higher I go up, the more I have to deal with this, and it’s just so mentally fatiguing.

  93. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

    Tips on interviewing for a manager role with the head of the company? And also tips on not freaking out due to nerves in anticipation of this event?

    1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      For nerves: you need to do something physical. A bit strenuous too. But nothing that’s gonna make you injure yourself or wipe you out. A good long hike, couple of intense tennis games, dancing, things like that.

      The head of a company wants to know “what can you do for him?”. How will you solve his problem for him? Can you ask early on in the interview, what he’s hoping to accomplish by this hire? Or what he’s looking for in a candidate? Then address your responses such that they show you comprehend his situation.

      1. Llama technician*

        I always view it as “I’m getting time on a really important person’s calendar!” and think of good questions to ask them. Even if it doesn’t work out, it’s a good opportunity to learn from people at that level. Good luck!

  94. Bigglesworth*

    How to quit question:

    I’ve mentioned on here before that I am currently in my final year of law school. This April, I landed a full-time paying law clerk Position at a small estate planning firm and although my employment offer letter stated that I was an at-will employee, there’s been an understanding that I would stay for one year. All fine and dandy, right?

    Two thing have happened recently that make it so I want to give my two-week notice next Friday. First, my dad is currently facing deteriorating mobility and most likely has a neurological issue. Among the other potential diagnoses he’s facing, Lou Gehrig’s has been mentioned as a strong possibility and, if that’s what he’s diagnosed with, we may only have 2-4ish years left with him. I….am not handling it well and want to spend as much time as possible with my family while my dad is still alive. Second, I have realized after starting here that my boss gaslights his employees, provides inadequate instructions, and has a reputation in our shared office space for generally being unreasonable. He’s also said very racist and sexist things to me (ex. Wading through 80-90 resumes with black and Muslim sounding names before finding someone he thinks is qualified). He is not a good man and, I believe, is an unethical attorney based on how he treats some of our elderly clients.

    I made up my mind to quit after visiting my parents this past weekend and seeing a noticeable difference in my dad since August. However, I believe quitting right now will burn the bridge here and that my boss won’t provide a good reference in the future.

    1. How do I let future employers know to expect a potentially poor reference from my boss?
    2. How do I quit as best as I can when the expectation was to stay for a year?

    My spouse said that this job has taken a physical and emotional toll on me that’s been evident for months. When I told my school friends, they’ve all done a happy dance that I’m leaving. The school administration is supportive and they only know about the situation with my dad. In short, everyone thinks this is a great idea to leave, but I’m still worried. Help?

    1. Delta Delta*

      I think (and I am a lawyer) you’ve got a great out since you just saw your dad. I think you can say, quite honestly, that you understand you agreed to stay for a year, but after just seeing your dad this last week you realize you need to leave so you can spend more time with him. I wouldn’t wait too long, since you just saw him and your boss probably knows that.

      I’d leave out “I’m leaving because you’re a gaslighting racist.” He isn’t going to change, and your saying that isn ‘t going to make things better.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        I saw Dad this past weekend and my sister is in town this weekend. We’re going to see what next steps forward we’re taking as the kids and then I’m submitting my notice next Friday. I hope that’s not too long of a wait, but my last day dovetails nicely with my dad’s next appointment which is the Monday after my (hopeful) last day.

        And I agree. I wasn’t planning on telling him that he should stop being racist, because I don’t think he’s going to change.

        Thank you so much for your advice! Especially that sooner is better than later.

        1. Delta Delta*

          I think that depends on your workload and on what needs to be wrapped up. I’ve always given a longer notice period, but I’ve also always been a pretty high-volume litigator, so it takes a while to wrap up and transfer cases. I think you can work that out with your employer – it might be that 2 weeks is enough time to finish whatever you can and get appropriate memos into files, etc.

          1. Bigglesworth*

            We’re generally speaking a pretty low-volume office. Especially with the holidays coming up, we have very little on the schedule. My work is mostly admin and we don’t have that many signings coming up.

            As an aside, I think my boss is already planning on me leaving soon. He uploading a new clerk training document on our shared portal and asked me to update my job description with what I actually do. I doubt he’s going to fire me since he’s said multiple times that I’m the best clerk he’s ever had, but I definitely think he knows that I’m not staying.

      3. pancakes*

        He could have to change if the bar association starts getting well-sourced, actionable complaints that he’s discriminatory in hiring and the state elder care agency starts getting well-sourced, actionable complaints that he’s taken advantage of clients.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      “There been a serious family situation arise which is going to require a significant amount of my time and attention going forward. This is unfortunately not going to be a short term situation, and I’m not going to be able to devote adequate time and attention to doing this job as well as I would prefer, so I think it’s better if I resign. I appreciate the opportunities I’ve been given while working here. My last day will be x. I will be more than happy to assist in making this a smooth transition.”

      Accompanied with a written letter of resignation, including wording like “due to family commitments, I am submitting my resignation effective x date. I appreciate the opportunities I’ve experienced while working here.”

      If he’s going to be a horrible human being, that’s on him. In future, you explain your early resignation as there was a family situation that came up that required more of your time than was doable if you kept the job, so you resigned. If he says anything different, you just respond with confusion that you don’t know where he got that, you were very clear with him that you were leaving due to family issues/commitments.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thank you so much for this wording! My boss knows exactly what’s going on (it’s a small office – me, him, and the associate) and the simple question of “How was your weekend?” the day after I got the news did not go over well. It’s the only time in my career that I bust into tears in front of my boss as I’m normally good about compartmentalizing work from my personal life. Having said that, I don’t want to put, “My dad may be dying and he’s more important than you.” in my resignation letter.

    3. CatCat*

      I’m so sorry for what’s happening with your dad. I’m also sorry you’re working for an unethical attorney.

      1. Don’t list this boss as a reference if you think it will be bad.
      2. Just do it. Put in your two weeks notice. “Boss, I am giving you my two weeks’ notice. I have a close relative in poor health and need to leave to help my family at this time and for the foreseeable future. Thank you for the opportunity here. I’d like to talk about wrapping up work things X, Y, and Z to ensure a smooth transition.”

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thank you so much. It’s been really sucky and everyone, both here and in real life, has been so supportive. I’m lucky that my family is super close, but it does make this incredibly difficult. My spouse and I decided after hearing the news to move states to be closer to my folks once we graduate, so I’m not going to be taking the bar exam here anyway.

        1. I wasn’t planning on it, since I know the associate will give me a glowing review. We share an office and he’s seen the struggle first hand (and also hates our boss).

        2. That sounds good. I have a few projects I’m working on, but nothing urgent or time sensitive, so that’s a bonus.

    4. Auntie Social*

      Tell Boss how much you’ve learned from him, how much you appreciate everything, you wouldn’t be cutting this short if it weren’t for your dad’s illness, etc. First of all, you’ve learned how not to treat people, and he IS a role model for what not to do, and second, this guy actually believes he is a role model. So double-speak as much as possible so you leave a good taste in his mouth and thank him for the opportunity.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        You’ve just hit the nail on the head for how I’ve survived thus far. I hate stroking a person’s ego when they don’t deserve it, but it’s the only way I’ve been able to stay sane here. I’ll definitely pull this wording when I talk to him next Friday.

    5. Another JD*

      Is your understanding of the one-year term enough under your state’s laws to change your employment from at-will to contract? If not, give your notice and be free. 2 weeks should be plenty to transition estate planning work.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        I don’t think that it changes it from at will to contract, but I haven’t look at my state’s laws. This was a purely an oral agreement. When he was hiring, he said he wanted someone to stay for at least one year.

    6. Don’t get salty*

      If I understand correctly, you are in your final year of law school while working as a law clerk at this estate planning firm. If that’s the case, why not give your two weeks notice, resign, and then leave this firm off of your resume. Once you graduate law school, you can start afresh with a new job that you can reference.

      Attending college while working and having an ailing family member is HARD and debilitating in itself. I’ve done it and there were definitely times where I was noticeably exhausted and in poor health myself. I would do exactly what you’re doing if I had that opportunity again.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        I hesitate to leave this off my resume because I’ve been here since April and generally like this type of work (I’d love to get into an estate planning firm with a focus on tax and estate administration/litigation…which is not what my firm does). Because this was also technically my 2L summer job, it’s not a great look to have nothing on there. Usually, law students get their post-grad job offers from their 2L summer position, which is what my boss has already offered to me too.

        That said, I agree that it can be debilitating to take care of an ailing family member and be in school. I also have some autoimmune issues and my spouse has mental illnesses which have landed them in the hospital while I’ve been in law school. Additionally, two of my grandparents have died in law school. So overall I’m not sure if I’m just used to people being sick/dying/wanting to die over the past three years, but I’m absolutely and utterly exhausted at this point.

  95. Jamie*

    My boss came in for an interesting chat today. We are part of a smaller group of international subsidiaries of a parent company and they want someone to lead a project dealing with international compliance regulatory stuff for the multi-org group. He said he thought of me right away and wanted to know if he could throw my hat in the ring.

    He thought I’d be good at it, it would give me visibility within the larger org, and be good for our company to take the lead, etc.

    I said I was interested, explained how little experience I have (it’s something I’m just learning since I got here, my previous employers didn’t have this type of regulatory oversight) and that sure toss my name in.

    Honestly, I’m sure someone else will have more experience as the bar is very low, but I’m okay with not getting it. I’m also okay if I get it – this que sera sera attitude is still so new. I guess I’m still getting to know post-burnout me and apparently she’s not as ambitious as pre-burnout me was.

  96. Toast*

    I interviewed for a temp job at $20/hour. It was a director level position that the temp agency tried to frame as an admin role. When I asked the hiring manager during the interview what the difference was between the temp job and the director-level job (the previous person had been in the role for 12 years), he said there was no difference. It would’ve been overseeing an entire department, approving financial documents, and doing public speaking engagements with the community. He said that someone else had been in the temp job and quit after a week because he was too overwhelmed. (The hiring manager had this tone like “That is soooo silly and this job is soooo easy.”)

    It was offered to the other candidate that interviewed (not me) because she would be a better “long term fit.” Three days later, I get a call that she quit. I was asked if I would do it.

    It was already the end of the day, and I felt pressured to say yes because it started tomorrow.

    The next morning, I got a call from another temp agency, offering me another role. It was similar pay and it started the next day. I decided it was a better opportunity because of the other job’s not-so-good history and because I felt like I would be taken advantage of.

    I tell the original temp agency I’m rejecting the offer.

    Then, at the end of the day, I call the second temp agency because I haven’t received the i-9 paperwork yet for the job that starts the next day, and the recruiter tells me she forgot to call me but the temp job isn’t available anymore, because the person I’d be replacing decided she *might* stay.

    I apologize to the first temp agency, and they said they’re never going to work with me again on anything.

    I totally get their perspective — I’m just some flake! I feel like this is all karma. I just… I think about what I could’ve done differently, and I think the ideal thing for me would’ve been to tell the first temp agency, “I need a day to think about it,” but I didn’t have a day. After I interviewed and the recruiter asked for feedback, she was not receptive to my concerns. I told her it was weird that this was a temp job for $20/hr for a director role. (She kept trying to tell me it was different because the last person had a license — that had nothing to do with the job!)

    If I had kept my original promise to the temp agency, at least I’d have a job and kept my reputation, but if I had quit like the other temps, maybe it would’ve ended up all the same!

    I feel really guilty, especially since now I have zero jobs. =(

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It may be a blessing that the first temp agency refuses to work with you now. They’re cutting their nose to spite their face. This happens all the time in temp work, things change quickly. Most are well aware you’re working with multiple agencies and things can get difficult.

      They put you on the spot and wanted you to work with like 12 hours notice. That’s on them. This is all on them. I know it stings because you’re being given the whole “It’s your fault. You’re bad. You’re naughty. You goofed.”

      No. You were put in an unsustainable position and was being strong armed. They were mad that they thought they “won” the thumb war but you topped them at the end.

      Work with the second agency. Stay on top of them to get a placement. This won’t be the only option!

      1. Toast*

        Thanks… just writing it out makes me feel like “Oh ok, maybe I shouldn’t get so mad at myself.” Thanks.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          GOOD. This realization makes me happy. I hate how we beat ourselves up when really, it isn’t our fault. It’s better than automatically assuming everyone else is in the wrong at least but not by much. Good luck on your journey, I’m sorry you hit this rocky patch!

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      The first place sounded awful, and I’m really sorry the second place fell through. The only thing I would have done differently is that I wouldn’t have apologized to the first company. What did you have to apologize for? They made you a sketchy offer, you said no thanks.

      1. Toast*

        Because I said yes at first because I wasn’t allowed any time to think about it and then turned it down like 10 hours later.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Hmm ok I didn’t realize you had agreed to that job. It’s not fantastic to back out of a job but you did it relatively soon afterwards and it’s a business transaction and it most certainly doesn’t require groveling. Honestly with their “sales” tactics and subsequent treatment you dodged a major bullet.

    3. Don’t get salty*

      You really should not be so hard on yourself. You have a choice of where to work just like the temp agency has a choice of who to offer potential openings. The fact that you turned the first agency down after a better offer came along is exactly how the process should work.

      You said that you have “zero jobs” so I don’t know if you mean that you currently have no prospects or that you are new to the working world. If you’re new, you should know that you don’t ruin your reputation by turning down a job offer that doesn’t work for you. You have more options than you think and any company that tries to pressure you to take on a job is a predatory company that you should stay far away from.

  97. CindyC*

    Is it normal to not hear anything back from a compagny once you’ve tried to apply for a job? The ad said to either call this number or send your application in a mail. So I tried calling and after a few rings it went to to voicemail. I tried calling again a couple of hours later and this time it immediately went to voicemail. So I sent a mail with my application/resume, CV and said that it was me trying to call earlier. It’s been two weeks now and I’ve heard exactly nothing. Did I do something wrong? Should I have left a voice mail? I just felt so weird saying ‘hi, I want to apply for the job uhm uhm’ and thinking I don’t know what more to say!

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      If you are in the US, it is perfectly normal to not hear anything, especially after only 2 weeks. You may not hear anything ever.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Sadly, yeah, it’s really normal. A part of job hunting is flinging your resume & cover letter into the void over and over and knowing that probably 90% of the time you will never know what happened with it.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      It is super normal. When applying for jobs I tend to imagine I’m throwing my resume/application into a black hole and then get pleasantly surprised if anything happens.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Always leave a voicemail. Just because they say “call” doesn’t mean it’s a number where they’re going to pick up. That would be a difficult thing to keep up with. They were probably checking messages at the end of the day and getting back in touch.

      Also if there’s a listing, it’s most likely going to up their phone intake. So it will indeed most likely always go to VM. Leave a message! Don’t just call back!

      You say “I saw your listing in The Daily Newspaper and was interested in speaking with you about the position. I have a background in Whatever. My phone number is…”

    5. merp*

      Going to second Becky Lynch here. Leave a voicemail! People do this allllll the time at my work (not for job apps, but questions). They’ll spend all day calling and not leaving messages, frustrating themselves probably more than if they had just left a message so we could get back to them. We’re frequently not able to answer the phone immediately but we check voicemails throughout the day and usually return them same day or next day. Idk about this place, of course, but better to leave one in similar future situations just in case.

  98. LizzE*

    Ugh, landing a new job can’t happen fast enough. I just can’t find myself to care about my job anymore. Some background: earlier this year, my organization went through a redesign where staff either had their positions adjusted or were let go altogether. My supervisor, a director, was let go. For 5 months or so, myself and another colleague were holding fort until they rebuilt our team. So of course, I stepped up to the plate with doing work my former supervisor use to do, which included leading events and donor centric communications. We hired a new department head in the summer and while there were some changes to my workload, she continued to give me a lot of work at that level. However, the long-term plan was always to fill that director position, which would continue to be my supervisor. But, in a surprise twist, the department head decided to split the portfolio into two and hire for two director-level roles, which I contend was so unnecessary. And unfortunately, that second director role cut into a lot of work I assumed still going to have in my portfolio.

    Fast forward to now and we have two new directors in the department, the colleague who held fort with me (also a director) and our department head — and guess who gets the short end of the stick in terms of workload and had all her high-level projects taken away to be given to the new directors. The intention is to have a specialist (my title) report to every director, but we are not going to hire any other specialists for awhile. So now I am being delegated less work, which isn’t bad considering I was doing work for 3 roles — other colleagues were reassigned to different departments during the redesign, so I was carrying a lot. But, I am not being challenged and it is demoralizing to have been trusted and praised for doing higher level work, only to have that taken away from you.

    Also, I am still reporting to the department head who has made it clear that while I will be reporting to one of the directors in the future, she is giving them breathing room to learn the ropes and get to know the role before making any moves. So essentially, she is giving them time to acclimate while sidelining me with busy work. And because we aren’t hiring for the other specialist roles soon, I don’t how long this is going to last for.

    Also to clarify: I always knew we were going to hire a director who would take back the work I was doing in the interim, but when the second director was hired for, I felt really blindsided, especially because I felt I could do that specific portfolio. (Side note: the first director hired was also blindsided by this move because she thought she was leading the entire portfolio and building a team of a specialists to manage different workstreams.)

    Anyone been through something like this before? How do you cope until you find something better?

  99. AndreaC*

    Hi all,

    Wondering what opinions or experiences are about wanting to work in another city. I am employed and applying to work in a city where I want to move, but I’m not getting anywhere. (I’ve used a local address in applications, given an idea of when I’m moving, and expressed I don’t need relocation costs to combat the location issue). I’m considering quitting my job and moving to the city where I want to live, thereby being unemployed (or employed by a temp agency) while I look for something.

    Which is more of a deterrent: living in another city or being unemployed?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      This is a problem I am expecting to face in the next few months, so will be following this thread. My hope is to convince my boss to let me work full-time remote, but the chances of him agreeing to this are microscopic.

      I think if you’re really antsy to get to the new city and you can live off a temp gig salary, that might be a good option to consider.

    2. Toast*

      It’s easier to get a job in a city where you already live, especially because it means you can get temp jobs that start *tomorrow* or other jobs (like restaurant jobs) where you show up to get it. I have gotten calls for jobs in other cities, but it’s definitely a mark against you, even if you say you’re moving on your own.

    3. wingmaster*

      I’m looking to relocate as well, and I have had good luck on getting interviews. Though, I only mention in my resume and cover letter that I’m open to relocate, and I’ve never use local addresses or not having the need of relocation package. I think for me, it’s making sure I really meet the job requirements and write a compelling CV.

      1. Toast*

        I’ve gotten a lot of calls for jobs in other cities, but it hasn’t progressed past that. Have they flown you out for interviews?

        1. wingmaster*

          I have flown out twice so far, and recently, I also have done a Skype conference, which was my final round. Now just waiting to hear back hopefully next week.

          I have another company who has invited me for an on-site interview, and I’m waiting to hear back from the travel agent after I sent my available dates. Hopefully I can get a confirmation today.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t use a local address. Never lie about your location. You just make it clear you’re relocating and you are available for interviews with X amount of notice to arrange travel.

      I was able to stack interviews into one or two days to keep up with this structure when I relocated.

      I also considered quitting and doing temp work. It’s a thing but you want to make sure you’re aware of all the temp agencies to start the paperwork in advance to relocating.

      The problem with this is that if you don’t have somewhere to stay and you are expecting to rent a place, most property management wants proof of income or your bank statements to prove you can afford their rent. I had to get a job offer in writing so that they’d rent an apartment to me. They also aren’t into renting sight unseen like they used to be [grumble], I finally found a place that was fine with me overnighting them my hold deposit.

      1. AndreaC*

        My worry with not using a local address in the application process is that the system will screen me out of some places for not being local. I always state the situation in my cover letter, so I’m being transparent, but I’m just trying to get around being weeded out by a computer.

        I have a friend who would let me stay in her spare bedroom until I am able to get my own place, so that’s really what’s making the idea of moving without a job feel like a possibility.

        1. 1234*

          If that’s the case, I would put the friend’s address but be prepared to interview fairly soon. They may say something like “Can you come in tomorrow for an interview?”

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah okay, if you’re staying with a friend for awhile that makes more sense.

          But your resume is going to give you away. Since they’ll see where you work now, which is Not That City, so they’ll probably think you’re unemployed and be like “Huh” when they see your current job is “Nov 2017-Present” or whatever have you. Which may be what’s throwing off their system as well.

          I would avoid places that make you apply through a generated system that will automatically refuse you anyways but that’s my personal hatred for that kind of system and the size of business that includes that kind of electronic application system.

          Since you may quit without something lined up, do you have any PTO banked right now that you could use up? For a trip…to visit your friend for a week or two…and job hunt on the ground level =X

    5. ResuMAYDAY*

      Most employers will only consider non-local candidates when the local talent pool has dried up. If you can use a friend’s address without mentioning the relocation, that’s a good start.
      Your career level is what will guide your options, more than anything. If you are an admin or support-level, employers will be more hesitant than if you’re higher up on the food chain. That’s why taking a temp job first will legitimize your residency. That one can be short term, because that’s easily explained in an interview.

    7. Jack Be Nimble*

      I moved from Midwest City to East Coast City last year. I didn’t have a job lined up, but I was in contact with a temp agency, and had a few two- and three-day jobs within a few days of arriving. I temped for three months before I landed my current role. I had about 2 months living expenses in savings, and I moved in with my now-fiancee, which help cut costs. I’m still rebuilding my savings, but I landed on my feet!

    8. LDP*

      When I was preparing to move to Dallas it was almost impossible to get a job before I was actually here. Even once I was here I still had a hard time with getting interviews since all my previous jobs and the college I went to were all in California. Honestly, your best bet is to get there as soon as you can, especially if it’s in a booming area. Good luck!

  100. Imaginary Number*

    I share a phone with my coworkers and it’s driving me nuts.

    Cell phones don’t work in the part of the building I spend most of my workday. Everyone who works in there also has a desk in another part of the building where cell phones do work.

    I share a desk phone with several of my coworkers. It’s really the only way we can be reached in there, so it’s not something you can just ignore when it rings. That would be fine, if it were just used for work-related things or family emergencies. The problem is that a lot of spouses use that number as well for non-urgent things. I’m one of the closest desks to the phone so unless there’s someone else around I usually end up having to drop what I’m doing to go answer it and 4/5 times it’s a non work call. Usually about things like what time kids have certain activities, whether or not they have homework, or what a certain coworker wants for dinner.

    I’ve already started to decline to take non-work related messages. I’ll pass along “Hey, your wife called” if I happen to see the person soon after but when someone asks me to take a message or relay that they called, I usually use the line: “I’m sorry. I don’t know his schedule and I’m not sure if I’ll see him anytime soon.” There are just too many people using that phone and too many non-urgent calls. I know it’s only taking half a minute to write something on a sticky, but it gets really obnoxious if it’s five times a day.

    Anyone else deal with this? Is there an etiquette for taking or not-taking family members’ messages (and not in an admin position?)

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Why are you sharing a phone? It seems like it shouldn’t be hard for everyone to have their own phone line.

      I agree with your current approach, unless it’s an emergency I don’t think you need to do anything more.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        It’s complicated. Short answer is that it’s really hard to put in phone where we’re at.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          That is annoying. Is it possible to bring up a phone-answering rotation with your manager/coworkers? It sucks that since you’re closest to the phone you end up having to answer it more often. Maybe if everyone had blocks of time in which they’re responsible for the answering the phone it would be less annoying to get the personal calls if you only had to answer at certain times.

          I would also ask for a clarification on personal calls, it seems like you’re getting waay too many of them. Or maybe since most of these could be resolved by a text you could have access to either personal email or gchat that non-employees could use to contact their spouses instead of calling.

          Third option – my desk phone has an option that allows me to receive calls through my computer (for working remotely). Could you all have extensions set up to ring your computer? Granted I don’t know how it works 100%, but it could be a good option if it’s truly impossible to get additional phone lines to your location.

          1. valentine*

            I imagine you don’t want coworkers camping out near you having these conversations, even if you were spared answering the phone. Establish with your coworkers that personal calls must be concussion/hemorrhage-level. Then, tell the callers. Does it have caller ID? If they are desperate to communicate what time badminton starts, how many grapes to peel, or that they want to eat an actual horse today, they can take their cellphones elsewhere at the top of each hour or whatever.

            It’s hard to put in phone lines, but would it be worth it in the long run?

    2. ResuMAYDAY*

      I wouldn’t take messages, either. If the caller wants you to write something down, try, “I’m on the other line with a customer but I’ll mention you called.” Also, start asking these callers if their call is an emergency. It might be uncomfortable to do, but these people will start realizing how many times they call for non-essential reasons.

    3. Lana Kane*

      I think the only resort you have is to talk to your coworkers and devise a plan that everyone can live with. It’s not fair for you to be their de facto receptionist.

      If they can’t come up with one, your manager may want to know that your coworkers are using that phone line for personal calls.

  101. A Simple Narwhal*

    Would it be weird to reach out to the recruiter who placed me in my current job (~2 years ago) and ask what the initial salary range was?

    Backstory: My company tends towards teeny tiny raises (paired with good bonuses) and this year I want to ask for something bigger. I see conflicting information on what my job’s salary is industry-wide (generic-ish title that could mean different roles of various skills and importance), but I’m also told that everyone who leaves this company usually gets a massive bump in pay, so I don’t know what would be reasonable to ask for. I figured that the recruiter probably was given a range when I was placed, so I’m curious if it’s weird to reach out and ask what it was to get a feel for what the range could/should be for my role.

    For what it’s worth, I named a number and was given it with zero pushback when I was hired, so I can’t tell if I was in range or was below and they jumped at my low request.

    1. AndreaC*

      I feel like if the recruiter would have given you that information had you asked when you were interviewing, then they would probably give it to you now. If they wouldn’t have disclosed it then, they probably don’t tell people that information. However, they may be willing to discuss the salary range for the industry as a whole, especially if it will mean you need to find a new job.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        That’s a good point. I was unemployed at the time and transferring into a new industry with a different focus from my previous roles so I wasn’t quite sure what the going rate really was (that’s on me though for not knowing or asking more questions). The offer was also significantly higher than my previous position so it felt weird to try and ask for more with no solid objections, especially when my unemployment was running out.

        I can totally understand why it was the right decision at the time (though a little less desperation would probably have allowed me to ask more questions), but with the benefit of hindsight it has me wondering if I may have left money on the table.

        Honestly now that I’m truly succeeding in the role I’m mostly just trying to figure out what a reasonable raise would be to ask for. Talking to that or another recruiter for general industry information couldn’t hurt, either to give me something to ask for or to know if outside options are available.

        Thanks!

    2. ResuMAYDAY*

      You can ask, but the recruiter (most likely) got paid based on the salary you accepted, so there’s no reason the recruiter would have stood in the way of you getting a better offer.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        True! That is helpful to keep in mind.
        Looking back I just got the feeling that they were in a super rush to get me placed somewhere as soon as possible – I know all recruiters want to place you somewhere quick to get paid, but this one gave me the feeling that they really didn’t want to stretch things out any longer and kinda breezed through the salary part of the process.

        It was also a temp to perm situation so I’m not sure if that affected things – there were two different salaries (an hourly rate paid from the contracting firm when I was a temping and the salaried rate from the company if they kept me) so I’m not sure if they made their money off of the temp placement and only got a bonus (if anything) if I stayed on.

        I could totally be wrong but it was just a feeling I got. This is the first time working with a recruiter resulted in a job so it was a whole new experience for me.

  102. Adelyade83*

    Not so much a question but I just need to get my feelings out. I just had to turn down business and that always feels icky. My husband and I own a business in a rural community doing tire/mechanic work. One rule that we have is we don’t install parts or tires that customers bring in. There are so many reason for that. The main one is that if something goes wrong with the part or tire customers feel we are responsible. However, we don’t have any recourse with the dealer it was purchased from since it’s not our dealer. So we don’t know if it’s defective from the dealer or if the customer mishandled something or if it was our error. There are too many ways for that scenario to go wrong. This doesn’t happen often but today I had tell someone we couldn’t install something. Turning down business is always hard even when I know it’s the right thing to do in the long run.

    1. AndreaC*

      I’m sure you’ve discussed this with a lawyer or your insurance company in order to protect yourselves, but is there a release you can have people sign if they bring in their own parts or tires?

      1. Filosofickle*

        This doesn’t fully solve the “customers feel we are responsible” part. A release can make it so they can’t hold you responsible, legally or financially, but you still may have an unhappy customer and a headache on your hands. My auto shop is the same — you can’t bring in your own parts — and it makes total sense to me.

        Turning down work can be uncomfortable, but I do it if I suspect it may not be a mutual win. I think you’re being smart.

    2. ResuMAYDAY*

      Could you come up with a plain-speak disclaimer that the customer signs, that clears you of liability?

  103. Cold Hands, Cold Heart*

    My job (a handful of coworkers, our boss, and an admin) is in a high-security office, so one coworker and the admin have monitors and buzzers at their desks to let in the janitor, the UPS guy (who comes every day to pick up packages and is BFFs with the admin), and approved visitors. The coworker with the buzzer and the admin were out at the same time this week, so I ran into the coworker’s office to let in the UPS guy when he buzzed. I’m fairly new here, so I know who the UPS guy is but haven’t interacted with him, so I introduced myself and shook his hand.

    “Whoa, warm hands. Do you give massages?” he asks.
    I internally facepalm and say no. But now he wants to have a conversation about how he gets massages every week and his (female–he pointedly mentions that) masseuse’s hands are so warm and I should give massages.
    “My hands are normally freezing,” I try, hoping to shut that down.
    “Maybe they’re warm because of me, then,” he says.
    “Oookay, well, nice to meet you,” I say, and cringe my way back to my office.

    Now soliciting snappy replies for any point in that exchange, mostly catharsis but also for future reference. I also feel weird about shaking hands now, so that’s awesome.

      1. valentine*

        “Inappropriate.”

        But don’t let him in again, report him to your supervisor, and ask to have him removed from your route. Maybe the admin, being a sitting duck, is just being friendly and thinks she can’t say anything about this wild behavior.

    2. ResuMAYDAY*

      How about, “I think UPS should provide that for you in your benefits package. I’ll call your manager and let her know that we talked about this. What’s her name?”

    4. Profane Pencils*

      Theoretical snappy comebacks that I strongly advise against using in real life:
      (In response to the initial warm hands comment)
      “Thanks, I just got back from hell.”
      “Does slapping people for making weird comments count as a massage?”
      “Are you used to people with cold hands? Do you… do you work with vampires? No wonder your idea of flirting is so antiquated.”
      “Whoa, clammy hands. You should not make creepy comments”.

      (In response to him talking about his masseuse)
      “Oh wow, what’s her name? I’ll have to get her info so I can warn her not to take your business ever again.”
      “I’m not very coordinated. Whenever I try to give a guy a massage, I end up punching him in the kidneys. On accident, of course.”

      (in response to “maybe they’re warm because of me”)
      “Oh, definitely. I do tend to get really warm when I’m incredibly grossed out by a conversation.”
      “I’m absolutely certain that’s not it.”

      For actually usable responses: staring blankly when someone says something really stupid is incredibly effective. So is “I don’t get it”, in this case in response to his “maybe they’re warm because of me” comment. Forces him to either back down, or explain that he was trying to flirt, at which point you can continue to stare vacantly, or say something along the lines of “ah. I need to get back to work” to shut him down.
      To be honest, you could also respond to his “Maybe they’re warm because of me” (and probably several other opportunities in that weird masseuse conversation) with a cheerful, very clear “No.”

      2. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

        I don’t think you should get into this with him, but I have been told that when a woman is aroused, her hands get colder because her body re-routes blood to, uh, other areas. So his attempt to be flirty is backfiring spectacularly.

  104. AnonEmbarresed*

    Warning: Bodily function stuff ahead.

    Good morning. Looking for advice please. I have been have some issues with bowel incontinence lately. At work :( HR is now involved so I am on five days of ‘courtesy’ FMLA. Need to get the paperwork for short term done asap. I have an appointment with my family doc this afternoon. Apparently I can’t go back to work until this is resolved. I know this will not be a quick fix but does anyone have any suggestions? I would love to work from home but not possible at current company. I will say they have handled this very professionally. Not ideal time to meet the new director of HR though.

    1. BadWolf*

      Oh boy! Having had some digestive issues that resulted in some close calls and wishing for wipes in the bathroom about a year ago, I’m so sorry!

      If you haven’t been keeping a food diary, I would try to write down what you can remember now to take with this afternoon (may not be food related or aggrivated, but they might ask and it’d be nice to have — I can never think up that many details on the spot).

      If you return to work and it’s not resolved or you’re unsure, I’d try out adult incontinence products (I know they’re geared to urinary incontinence, but there’s usually a product for everything). If you can afford it, buy a few different types of pads/underwear. Do they have any storage area in your restrooms that you could discreetly place a box with some items in (wipes, pads, extra trousers?) If you are a person that carries a purse, could you start taking your purse with you (with supplies in it?) without people asking too many awkward questions.

      I think this is one of those things that if you are obviously embarrassed and making changes and not getting defensive, normal people will be also embarrassed (for you) and want to make it work. It sounds like you probably work with people who are good and not jerks.

    2. WellRed*

      I’m not actually clear on what advice you are seeking but wanted to express sympathy for this. It sounds rough.

    3. AndreaC*

      We had someone with a similar issue at my office. She asked for ADA accommodation, which allowed her to work from home since it was operationally feasible. You might ask for a desk closer to the bathroom or flexible start time if you have a flare up or whatever would help in your situation.

  105. What's with Today, today?*

    I was made a manager in the small family media business I work for back in January. I’m the only non-family manager and just got my third direct report this morning! And I got to help hire him. A small thing, but I’m pretty excited.

  106. CompSci Ain't for Me*

    Some background: I have four years’ work experience in IT as a tier 2 help desk person, plus an AAS in Computer Information Systems, and I’m currently working full-time while pursuing an online computer science degree.

    The thing is…I hate it! I cannot do the higher level math and I’m learning that while I like technology and enjoy my job well enough, I don’t like computational theory or programming. (And I’m bad at them to boot.) So I am looking to switch to a degree that can make use of my IT experience while also playing to my strengths, which are writing and communication.

    Right now, I’m looking at Arizona State University’s Technical Communications program. (Link in following comment.) Ideally, I’d like to be a technical writer, but I am open to ideas. Does anyone have any input on whether or not this is a good route to go or what other options I have, either school- or career-wise?

    Thank you!

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I can’t comment on programs, but career wise, have you consider QA roles? I’m assuming from your work experience that you have some skills at problem solving and are comfortable around computers, and you also mentioned you have skills in writing and communication. Those are all very valuable in a QA role, since you need to be able to both identify problems, and explain to the developer what the problem is and how to reproduce it. (If you’re really good at noticing the oddball ways something could go wrong, that’s even better – it gives you a jump start on being able to come up with test cases.)

      1. CompSci Ain't for Me*

        Interesting, I hadn’t considered those! For some reason I thought you had to have programming skills (mine are very basic), but doing more research, it doesn’t seem like most QA analysts need to know much programming. I am definitely good at troubleshooting/problem solving. I’d be curious for anyone in that field to chime in!

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          The amount of programming skills you need will depend on how much the role wants you to automate your tests. This can vary even within a single company.

          For example, my husband is in QA. In theory, he’s supposed to be writing a lot of automated tests. In practice, because he’s very good at coming up with test cases and writing SQL scripts for manual tests (which may or may not fall under the programming skills you’re not interested in), it’s not uncommon for his test cases to get automated by his coworkers (he’ll hand off the SQL script and expected behaviors, they’ll put it into something that can run automatically).

    3. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I will be leaving a link below. The University of Wisconsin Eau Clair offers an online Technical Writing Certification program.

    4. lemon*

      Are you creative? If so, maybe UX design/research or something in digital marketing communications or content strategy. Writing and communication skills plus comfort with technology are helpful for those roles.

    5. Super Duper Anon*

      This is exactly how I started as a technical writer. I did comp sci in university and realized that while I enjoyed learning about technology, there was zero way I wanted to program for a living. So as I was finishing up the degree, I looked through a ton of job ads to see what other tech roles there were out there and came across technical writing. I found it really interesting but realized that I would need some more schooling to make it work. I took a year off after university to go on an exchange program and work a temp job, then did a year long post-grad certificate in tech writing. It was an intense year, but I loved it and learned a lot. I got my first tech writing job a couple months after I graduated and I have been a tech writer ever since.

      1. CompSci Ain't for Me*

        It’s good to hear a positive experience! What certificate program did you use for the tech writing cert?

        1. Super Duper Anon*

          I am in Canada so I did it through a community college in my province. I think you are in the US so I won’t be so helpful :)

    6. tab*

      What about a engineering technology degree? It has less math than an engineering degree, and you can definitely get good paying jobs. I’m not that optimistic about technical writing…

      1. CompSci Ain't for Me*

        I don’t know – when I say I struggle with the math, I mean that I have a hard time with everything above college algebra. I’m not sure I could manage an engineering technology degree either.

        1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          I just looked up the curriculum for the Information Technology degree that I have. (This is basically an engineering technology type of degree.) It requires one semester of pre-calculus, and one semester of discrete math (Boolean logic and set theory mainly). The cyber security track also requires a semester of statistics. (That surprised me – everyone had a stats requirement when I went.) They also show a required grade of C- for the class to apply for the degree.

          I don’t have any idea how this compares to your math skills, but it’s one reference point for what’s out there.

  107. Profane Pencils*

    I could use some perspective and advice on conduct in the workplace.

    We had an incident on Monday where one of our technicians raised a concern with our dispatcher over slack, she explained the (very logical and deliberately thought out) reasoning behind the issue, and his response was “that’s ass-backwards”. (Note: this is how things have been done for the last six months, and this is the first I’d heard of it not working for him. Also worth noting that the confusion could have been completely remedied if the technician had read the ticket notes. This is an ongoing issue for him.)

    I stepped into the thread to support our dispatcher, as she very recently took over this role from me, someone looped in our two big bosses (this is a tiny company, that’s not as dramatic as it sounds), and 75 comments later, the thread ended with the technician stonewalling, refusing to offer suggestions despite being asked what he thought would work better multiple times, accusing our dispatcher of not doing her job at all, and (This is my favorite) ending his part in the conversation with “I’m in no position to be telling people what to do. [insert rehash of issue and attacking the dispatcher’s processes here]”.
    I went and bought our dispatcher a peppermint mocha for a much-needed morale boost after this all settled down 2+ hours later.

    This technician has a history of being brusque when not outright rude, and apparently ENTIRELY unaware of how his actions affect others. I’ve called him out (used to be his team lead) in the past on being rude or unkind, and he’s flat-out denied it.
    He’s also one of our most talented technicians, and we are in a small town; talent is very hard to come by. If something like this happens again, he’s gone, but in the meantime, we’d like to find a way to keep him around.

    As our technical writer, I’m in a position where I can create and submit policies for review. After this incident, I mentioned to our CEO that a code of conduct might be worth considering, and his response was “That would have been very, very useful. Go for it”. We’re going to have two versions–two or three sentences to go in the company handbook, and a longer description to be referenced during disciplinary procedures–but we very much need something that is written down and not up for interpretation. I would really love to write “Don’t be an asshole”, but that’s not specific enough. We, due to a lack of maturity and/or experience in our staff, need to make sure all of the rules subject to disciplinary action are very, very clearly laid out.

    So my question is this.
    How would you describe appropriate workplace behavior?
    More importantly, how would you define “respect”, especially among colleagues?

    You can be as granular or general as you like; I’m essentially trying to approximate a brainstorming session.
    Thank you for your help!

    1. Auntie Social*

      Well, no ad hominem attacks, to start. (If they sound like a member of Congress, that’s a pretty good indication they need to rethink what they want to say. . . .)

    2. WellRed*

      I know this isn’t what you are asking, but is it typical at your company to have a two hour (!) session on Slack instead of sitting down in person for a discussion?

      1. EJane*

        It is when three of the people in the conversation are working from home. :/ It absolutely should have been handled differently, I and the bosses are in agreement on that, but Fred has been known to yell, and is a hell of a snapper. Slack is easier, with him, especially with Betty being the target of his vitriol.

          1. valentine*

            It’s worth it to fire Fred now, to spare Betty and not waste two hours and coddle him (asking him for suggestions) because he refuses to improve his reading comprehension. Because he has no reason to change, there’s going to be a next time, so all the waiting is doing is deciding that delaying dealing with him properly is worth the impact on his next target.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I’ve recently been involved in proposing and ratifying a code of conduct for a volunteer organisation. Some thoughts, as they occur to me:

      * People can be unpredictably awful and it would be impossible to write an exhaustive list of behaviours to cover every aspect of that. The devil is in the detail and interpretation is so subjective you end up arguing about tone of voice or whether offence was intended or merely taken.

      * What is your intention? Is it to warn or coach people in advance, or to fall back on during disciplinary procedures? The tone and wording could be different, e.g. “We use positive and encouraging language” v “Personal attacks will not be tolerated” or whatever. Would you prefer a list of “do”s or “don’t”s?

      * Certain behaviour standards should go without saying, but it can be worthwhile naming relevant local or national statute along the lines of “We expect all employees to conduct themselves in accordance with (equality statute) and (disability legislation) and therefore no discrimination on the grounds of (list) will be tolerated under any circumstances.”

      * You can invoke your core mission if appropriate, to show that all actions/responses/comments should be constructive/collaborative/in the desired direction of travel, or whatever.

      I’ll remember something else, no doubt.

      1. EJane*

        Oh, this is helpful!
        We’d want a list to fall back on during disciplinary procedures. The positive bit, which will go in the employee handbook, is pretty straightforward (X encourages collaboration and honesty; management has an open-door policy for all concerns; etc.)
        I’m not sure about the dos v donts thing; probably don’ts, at this point.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          You can define behaviour by dos or don’ts depending on who you’re talking to and I agree that that could be different in headlines v small print – though, I think That Guy would read “we encourage honesty” as supporting unpleasant frankness, so it might need a redraft!

          I think it sounds as though you’re looking for a pretty exhaustive list of actions which would trigger disciplinary proceedings. That’s a different kind of undertaking from the one I was involved with so I’m afraid I can’t suggest any resources, but I’ll have a think whether any of ours would have useful phrasing.

    4. AndreaC*

      Here’s what ours says, though it sounds like you need something stronger:
      [Organization] is committed to a work environment free of harassment and disruptive behavior, and to an equal opportunity work environment where every member of the [Organization] community is treated with fairness, dignity, and respect.

    5. Jen Mahrtini*

      It’s great that you’re thinking about this and writing a policy, but ultimately it’s not going to help if you don’t have everyone on board that this guy is gone if he does it again. In fact, it could get worse if he feels emboldened to ignore a written policy. Make sure your CEO, etc., are all in agreement.

  108. whistle*

    I recently found out my new coworker is into geology and is a rock hound just like me, so now we get to talk about our rock collections and stuff. Yay!

    What are some of your unusual/esoteric hobbies that you’ve been able to bond with coworkers over?

    1. Amber Rose*

      My love of old/strange fantasy movies. I’m always so excited when I encounter other people who have seen and also love Labyrinth, Legend, Dark Crystal, Willow, Mirror Mask, etc. My coworker was wearing a Labyrinth shirt yesterday. I love it.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Georgette Heyer novels. I was borrowing them one at a time from the library; she owned the full set and lent me a stack at a time.

      (I binge read the entire set in under two weeks)

      #HappySigh

    3. Archie Goodwin*

      I’m convinced that choral singing helped get me my current job. I spent a term on my choir’s governing board, which is in my resume. And in my interview I mentioned that we were doing a C. V. Stanford piece (much less common in the US, I think), among other things (can’t remember which one offhand), which is a piece my interviewer knew. And he mentioned having sung Stanford before, and I said something about other encounters I’d had in college. No direct evidence, but I’m sure it was a help. :-)

    4. Nessun*

      One of the partners I worked for in my massive accounting firm was a huge gamer. We’d have long conversations at lunch about MMOs, and no one else knew what we were talking about. The best compliment he ever paid me involved calling me a Paladin at my job, and no one at work understood why I was so amused and pleased. …but my guild online did!

  109. Young Buck*

    I am a fairly young manager(late twenties/almost thirties). I have quickly been promoted throughout my career but have been in my current role for 5 years. I also have an extremely youthful face as in I look the exact same in my high school freshman pictures. I have an issue with a few staff and their attitude towards me. I understand I don’t need them to like me and be friends, however I do expect respect. One of the staff is older than me and tends to give an attitude that I do not know what I’m doing or that they do not have to listen to me. For context, I’ve worked in this field nearly 5 times as long as this staff. Other staff issues stem from them being younger than I and they expect to be able to talk to me on a friend level. (With ughs, sighs, and eyerolls.) Most of these issues are with newer staff with the exception of one. How do I explain to the staff that this type of attitude and demeanor is not acceptable in our professional working environment?

    1. Toast*

      My non-answer answer is that that’s part of managing. If your employees don’t respect you, you can’t manage them. I’ve seen lots of responses to that sort of thing from Alison on this site and there are books on it. I’m sure someone else will have a better answer than me, but the problem isn’t your age; it’s how they’re treating you.

    2. fposte*

      Just to be clear–this is staff that you directly manage? Then you bring up the specific behavior in the moment (and you need a specific behavior, not just general “respect” issues), note why it’s a problem, and make clear that it has to stop. I’m not sure what they’re sighing and eyerolling about, but those aren’t automatically forbidden things in an office; I have no problem with my staff telling me about life problems with sighs and eyerolls, for instance. If they’re eyerolling to you about management or co-workers, you can say calmly “Nonetheless, in the workplace we talk about them with respect,” which should make the point pretty clear that you’re not the person to bitch to.

      This is stuff that people deal with all the time no matter how young they look, too, so I think you might be overfocusing on something that you’ve struggled with whether it’s relevant to the situation or not. And the higher up people go, the less they tend to worry about whether a moment with a staffer was less respectful than it should have been and the more they just need to get shit done. If the staff you’re talking about are not getting shit done, that’s the core problem that needs to be addressed.

    3. Profane Pencils*

      I agree with Toast that I would trawl Alison’s blog for answers to similar questions.
      But, at the end of the day, you could look like a narwhal and they would still need to respect you as their manager. You’re making allowances for their behavior when you explain it as a cause of your appearance/age.
      Make a small mental shift: You needing respect is not a matter of bargaining. It doesn’t matter how much longer you’ve been in the field, or what you look like, or how old you are. You don’t need to prove to them that you are deserving of respect. You simply expect it.

      (I recommend this only for the mental shift it’ll encourage. Poor actions will result in a loss of respect, but that’s not the issue you’re facing right now.)

      I wouldn’t make some big grand gesture, or think up and make a speech; with youthful/disrespectful staff, those tend to backfire. I would put your foot down, starting this morning. When they roll their eyes or make noises, ask them if something is wrong. Or (this is my go-to) just look at them expectantly. They’ll either realize what they did or ask you “what?” at which point you can say “Oh, I thought you had a concern based on your response/expression.”

      1. Profane Pencils*

        I wish I could delete my response, mostly because fposte said it better and raised more relevant points.

              1. fposte*

                AAM also for years had a poster named Monodon monoceros. Maybe the saying should be “On the internet, nobody knows you’re a narwhal.”

    4. Just Elle*

      Hello fellow young baby face manager. Jocko (author of Extreme Ownership: How Navy SEALs Lead to Win, but he also has a podcast) addresses this in an unusual way, and once I got over my own ego and sense of ‘unfairness’ about it enough to try it, it has worked out great for me.

      When people don’t respect you or your decisions, the knee-jerk reaction is to demand they “respect your authority” or double down on your decisions to prove you’re right. But really, all that does is make you look defensive and young and egotistical dictator, confirming their beliefs.

      Instead, try using your confidence in your abilities as a secret weapon. Your ‘age’ is determined by your attitude and actions more than your face. Let them question you. Be open to their ideas. Ask them for help. Show that you aren’t above admitting when you don’t know something. Give people ownership – if they question you on something, say, “it sounds like this is a passion of yours and you have some great ideas, would you mind leading up the team for me?” etc.

      I’m not saying they don’t suck. They’re being jerky jerks. But if you can let go of the ‘unfairness’ and the ‘disrespect’ you will “win” long term. And as far as eye rolling at you etc, just be the bigger person and stick to professional norms. Eventually, as you earn their trust, they’ll start to respect you and come around. I mean, you might have one straggler, but that straggler will now be weird-Jane-who-is-catty-to-the-boss-we-all-like and you’ll have other people willing to defend you. But no one in the history of ever has respected someone because they were ordered to.

  110. kc*

    I’ve been job hunting for a few months – last week I was told (verbally) that a place I interviewed at wanted to make an offer. I waited all week for the approval and just found out yesterday that they aren’t actually approving new roles until next year! I was really trying not to get my hopes up too much without an actual offer but… I’m really disappointed!

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Oh that sucks – would it have been less frustrating to hear nothing at all?

      Hope your luck improves soon.

      1. kc*

        I would have preferred to just know from the beginning that there was a freeze, or to hear nothing at all until the offer was approved or not – I know you don’t have an offer until you have an offer but it was hard not to feel like the job was mine for the past week.
        I’ve spoken a bit with my friend who works there (who told me to apply) who said that the hiring freeze was a total shock to everyone I’d been in contact with – it makes me feel a bit better, but also now kind of wary of this company I really wanted to work for! It sucks.

        1. LawBee*

          Ugh, that sucks. I had that happen a few years ago and it was so disheartening. Hopefully they’ll lift the freeze sooner than anticipated, or you find something else in the meantime.

        2. Colette*

          This is really common (and usually has little impact on current employees). It sucks that you don’t have the job you wanted, but I wouldn’t hold it against the company.

  111. Anxious Annie*

    I’ve been at my job for a few months now and it is a small department. They all share calendars with one another and have each other’s cell numbers…. I have my boss’s info, but that’s it. I don’t *need* to know everyone else’s info, but it feels weird and like I’m left out. There is another employee who started days before me and he seems to be fitting in better. I have social anxiety and never feel like I fit in anywhere. Am I stressing over nothing?

    1. EJane*

      I think you answered your own question a bit, in that you know you have social anxiety. One think I’ve found to be effective is looking for concrete evidence, instead of the ghosts in the corners of your eye that anxiety tells you are important. How did they get each others’ cell numbers? Were they offered? is there a group list? Do people ask? Why do they share calendars? Does their reason apply to you, too? Are they going to lunch together? It’s always okay to ask one of your coworkers “hey, can I join you guys next time you go to lunch?” It’s an incredibly difficult thing to imagine saying, but it’s simple and effective, and easier than you’d think.

      I also guarantee that no one else is as aware of the weirdness you’re noticing. That’s not to say it isn’t valid–whatever you’re experiencing is valid–but it does mean that you don’t need to worry about others judging you on top of dealing with the weirdness itself.

      1. Just Elle*

        All of this!

        As a fellow social anxiety person, I’ve found that often the problem is I overthink and therefor isolate myself. Your other coworkers probably instigated a lot of communication that you’d never dream of. Maybe Jim was like “hey, team, send me your calendars!” or “whats your cell number?” in his second week. Maybe he asked to tag along at lunch. Etc. Most people are pretty set in their routines and forget to modify them when someone new comes along. Its not that they don’t like you – it doesn’t even occur to them to invite you. But they would probably welcome you with open arms (and even feel a bit silly they left you out) if you ask to be included.

  112. Librarian Job Openings*

    Hey folks, In the course of my own job hunt I noticed that Syracuse University (in central new york) is advertising a handful of librarian jobs. If you’re interested, check them out. Just remember that they’re in a snow belt.

  113. Toast*

    How can I get over my fear of being “found out”? It’s like every time I get a call from a recruiter, I’m afraid they’re going to be like, “I have some bad news… we discovered your secret!”

    It’s not that I have anything bad on my record, but I feel like I’m hiding something from them, even when I tell them upfront.

    I think it’s based on experiences I’ve had with recruiters in the past where… for example, a recruiter said to me, “I’m really concerned… I googled the company you were with… is it true that the CEO you were supporting is also the inventor of the product?” I told her yes… the company is built around it and that’s what the engineers etc work on. She decided that that was too sketchy for their clients (paraphrasing) and they can’t work with me anymore.

    So now I’m just like paranoid all the time.

    1. fposte*

      This is pretty much impostor syndrome in a nutshell–are you familiar with that? It’s pretty common. I know Alison’s done posts on it but there’s a lot of other writing on it as well.

      1. Toast*

        It’s not imposter syndrome!!!! I feel 1000000% confident at doing the job. It’s only the interview process. People get freaked out because the companies I worked for are small.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, “People being freaked out” is different than “I’m afraid of being found out.” The first sounds more objectively correct, but it sounds like maybe you’ve internalized some of the responses to your resume. So I agree with the advice to shrug it off as being about them and not about you.

    2. EJane*

      …. what an odd comment for a recruiter to make. That sounds like a textbook startup.
      It also absolutely explains your fear; to find out that something on your resume is cause for concern in a way you never anticipated would put you on high alert for there being something else that makes you unattractive to employers.
      One option is to remind yourself that that recruiter was an outlier.
      Another is to go through your resume, reexamine everything on it, play devil’s advocate, and come up with responses. Feeling more prepared will help. Don’t do this, though, if it’ll just up your anxiety. I feel better when I pull things apart to remove variables, but sometimes ignoring nonsense is better.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There are a lot of sub par, awful recruiters who shouldn’t be trusted. It’s them. Not you.

      LMFAO @ “The CEO invented the product!? That’s so sketch.”

      That’s absolutely typical of how businesses are built and operate. I’ve worked for owner/operators the majority of my jobs and nobody flinches about it. Yeah, they’re artists…that sell their work and have created a factory to make it in mass production, bro. I’d laugh in the face of any recruiter who was spooked by it.

      These people don’t get to have that much control over you! They’re not important in the scheme of things. Just remember that.

  114. Flyonthewall*

    At my new workplace we don’t have the access to install software or try and repair anything, only the IT employee has these access. Problem is, Everytime we need him to repair or install anything, it takes 1 to 2 months before he does anything. If we try to talk to him, he will get angry and tell us to send a request, and when we send a request he says he “didn’t see it”. A lot of times this prevents us from doing our work effectively. Everyone there has preatty much given up and accepted that he’s a mediocre employee. Have you ever been in this type of situation? Do you have any tips? His boss is in another city so we don’t know who it is and can’t talk to them, so it could be part of the reason why he’s been slacking off for the last 10 years.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Yes, but ultimately he was fired and we got somebody new. There was a mismatch between what we needed and what we could afford (sigh) so now we have more individual access so the new IT Guy only has to deal with the more complex issues.

    2. Alianora*

      WTF. He’s not a mediocre employee if he’s straight-up not doing his job, he’s a bad one. And just because the boss is in another city doesn’t mean you shouldn’t know who his boss is.

      You’re new, so you could ask HR or your boss for an org chart and if he’s not on it, say, “Hey, I noticed IT isn’t on the org chart. What’s up with that?” If he’s being paid by the company, this information has to be somewhere.

    3. Colette*

      1. Send in a request.
      2. Ask him for help (immediately) – when he tells you to send in a request, give him the ticket number.
      3. If you don’t get help with a day or two, escalate to your manager. It is your manager’s job to figure out who to talk to in his reporting chain.

  115. Moana*

    Internal Job Transfer Q

    What would you put on your voicemail if you were transferring jobs internally? The roles are very similar, think Coconut Tree analyst (macro) instead of Coconut Analyst (micro). Same desk, same email, same coconuts but on the global level. Not sure I’ll be calling many people…

    So far I have come up with 3:

    “Hello, you have reached Moana. I am no longer a Coconut Analyst. Please email XYZ for assistance.”

    “Hello, you have reached Moana. I have changed departments and I am no longer a Coconut Analyst. Please email XYZ for assistance.”

    “Hello, this mailbox is no longer monitored. If you are a Coconut, please email XYZ.”

    1. Toast*

      Don’t know protocol but I would give options, “Hi, you’ve reached a number that is no longer part of the xyz dept. If your inquiry is involving xyz dept, please call _____. If you are trying to reach Moana in new dept, call ____.”

    2. Fabulous*

      I like the third one best – short and sweet, and easiest to understand the instructions.

      Maybe add in “this mailbox is no longer monitored for coconut analysis” for a minor clarification in case your global team calls you.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’d start with “Hello, you have reached Moana with the Coconut Tree Analysis team. Please leave a message.” If you start getting phone calls for Coconut Analysis, see if your phone setup is such that you can forward the voicemails to the right place. If that doesn’t work, send the kakamora in.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          (I have a trio of plushy kakamora on my desk and I threaten to sic them on folks somewhat regularly :) )

          1. Moana*

            I love this!! I have a little Domo and Pusheen that sit on my monitor at work. Must add kakamoras!

    4. Moana*

      I like all these! Thanks for the helpful replies. Looking forward to my new roll as Coconut (Palm) Tree master.

  116. Fabulous*

    I got an interview for that job I applied for last week. It seems like a great position and it’s totally aligned to what I like doing, what I’m good at doing, and in my preferred field. I’m still wavering on whether it would be worth it to change jobs right now in my career. How can I tell if I’m really ready to move on or if I’m just getting antsy?

    I’ve been at my current employer for about 3.5 years, which is the longest I’ve stayed anywhere in my 15-year work history (due to a few series of temp jobs, moving states and going back to grad school). It’s not that I’m unhappy in my current job – I actually love it – it’s just not in my preferred field that I went to school for and I sometimes feel like my 6 years of higher education is being wasted where I’m at.

    It’d essentially be a lateral salary move–possibly up to $5k higher than my current salary–but with more varied tasks and supervisory responsibility which I’ve never had. Other than that though, I’d likely be losing great PTO benefits, a generous maternity leave (I plan on having 1-2 more children in the coming years), and the most amazing work-from-home flexibility. Another con is that there doesn’t seem to be as much growth potential in this new role, though I do plan to ask about that.

    Anyway, I keep wavering on whether this change would be right at this time in my life. Help!

    1. 1234*

      I’m risk-adverse so I would stay where I’m at. I don’t think an additional $5K would be enough for me to move to an “unknown” place that’s a lateral move but with more responsibilities. Couple that with all the negatives you mentioned, I would stay put.

    2. Alianora*

      Go to the interview, see how you feel about the job after that. Ask lots of questions!

      If it does end up being what you predicted, I would try negotiating for better benefits or salary and aiming high.

      You say you love your current job. Is the “not preferred field” thing really nagging at you? If it is, I’d say it’s worth taking the leap. If you’re pretty much content, though, I would only change jobs for a really amazing offer. You have growth potential at your current job and you love it. $5k isn’t worth leaving that (especially with the lost benefits.)

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      You’re getting ahead of yourself. Those are questions to be pondering as you learn about the job.

      You aren’t at the point of making a decision, though, not unless you have a job offer in front of you. Go to the interview with the mindset, “I’m going to explore this potential maybe opportunity” rather than “Oh, going will mean I’m committed to this unknown job and disrupt my life.”

      1. Fabulous*

        This comment is not helpful. I am not under the impression that I am committed to take the job by going to an interview. That is an odd assumption to make. I am simply planning for a scenario in which I am offered the job. Forgive me for liking to be prepared for every potential outcome, especially one that might uproot my life??

        Obviously, I will be exploring the opportunity, but this is my first time I’m in a situation where I actually like my current job and hadn’t been planning to leave (as opposed to a “my-temp-contract-is-ending-I-need-to-find-new-employment-now” situation), and I just happened to come across something that checked all my requirement boxes for even considering a change.

  117. Not the office jerk after all*

    I wrote in an open thread a few months ago how I felt excluded by my colleagues, because they were not inviting me for strolls on campus or very rarely came with me to grab a coffee [from the break room, this is hit and run, not staying to chat, whatever] but then went a few minutes later, or invited me for the same coffee run or went to each other’s offices for long times but always shuffled me out as quickly as possible. To be clear, I don’t WANT to socialize for hours, but the occasional information from the grapevine would make me look less like a fool every so often.

    Anyway, I assumed I was being the office jerk by being Too Much, due to work being my main real life non-virtual social contact that weren’t my ageing parents I was taking care of. I got some great advice from the commenters and I simply wanted to say something about that again. I want to re-iterate that this was not a work issue and these things only appeared with the members of my department that are in the same age cohort as me, not with the senior managers or my manager or anyone from the leadership team.

    I really dedicated myself to keeping my head down, my mouth shut and just letting it all go as best as I could and not react to anything. I tried to find some solution that would allow me to shorten my commute (still ongoing) and distribute the load in caring for my parents better (also still ongoing). And after a while I saw improvements at work, and while I was still somewhat out, people would approach me and talk to me and I was being included more. 

    However, during this period one of my colleagues was on extended sick leave (planned) due to surgery with a lengthy recovery period. Then she returned and … it was all back to square one for me. Now I’m on my own again for lunch most days and there’s the same feeling of being pushed away. My behavior has not changed, I still keep my head down and my mouth shut, except for, you know hi good morning, can I ask your help with this when you have time, and of course things like I hope you’re doing better to the colleague who was out sick for so long.

    There had been some planning for a department event that my office mate is involved in and I gave her my opinion when she asked, and the recovered colleague was also there and shot against whatever I said. I smiled, shrugged, turned around and decided I was done with that crap. I can’t change jobs because this one allows me the flexibility I need to manage with my parents, and I actually do like the work, but if she’s so adamant about pushing me out of that “social” circle of junior managers then so be it. I think it’s partially related to the fact that I do use the flexibility that jobs allows me (mostly working/finishing the day from home when necessary; my manager is okay with this and my reviews are glowing!) while she never does any of this herself, but overall I have no clue why this would hit me rather than anyone else. 

    I still want to thank you all for your advice and your support, it has been very helpful and I got some insights about myself and what I need to change in the long term. 

    1. valentine*

      It sounds like the surgery colleague has it in for you and is the ringleader who insists they shun you. You can’t please her, so you may as well please yourself. You can still ask people to do stuff, just so they can’t say you never do.

  118. City Planner*

    I need some outside perspective on whether it’s time to move on from my current position.

    For context, I work in local government. I report to a chief administrative officer, who himself reports to an elected body. One of my projects, after five years of pretty straightforward and non-controversial work, has recently become a higher profile political issue. The governing body has been considering undoing the entire project, even after five years of effort and approvals. Recently, the project was given a reprieve through the next budget year, but the conflict over this project has spilled over into others I’m working on. I had already begun to consider whether I was flirting with burnout before all of this. I have loved my job and my boss and my coworkers, but in the past month it has been hard to muster up my enthusiasm for going to the office.

    I have started looking around and talking to people in my network about other opportunities — and other opportunities appear to be out there for me. However, they are mostly in consulting and start-ups, not the public sector, so would involve a pretty big change. And, ultimately, I can’t seem to decide whether I should leave my job — which I have loved so much! — or put my head down and gut it out. I’m not sure how to judge the future political climate in my organization (which could get better or worse, who knows? Local elections are uncertain things) against changing sectors. And, to make this more uncertain, I’m a high performer and already know my performance review will be “Exceeds Expectations” for a fourth year in a row, giving me a platform to make requests (I’ve already negotiated more vacation and more salary in previous years), if only I could figure out something to request.

    TL;DR – When burn-out and conflict and uncertainty collide with a great boss and institutional roots and previous job satisfaction, how does one know when it’s time to move on? Does anyone have any words of wisdom?

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      Back when I was deciding if I should leave my very nice job that had taken a turn for the worse politically or stay, I mostly asked myself- If nothing changes in 6 months, would you still be happy?

  119. 1234*

    Somewhat related to the “employees who ghost/don’t show up” posts we had lately.

    Is it legal for a company to fine someone for no call no show (without proof of legitimate reasons)? Does it change depending on whether the person is 1099 or W2? A person who owns their own company says they put this into their contracts with staff and the fine is high. In the thousands.

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      It might be legal, but I don’t know how you would enforce it. I have had requirements to payback moving expenses or other funds if I didn’t actually move/show up, but never just a fine. My limited understanding (and it is limited, I am not a lawyer) is that to enforce that sort of contract in the US, you would have to prove a business harm had occurred and I don’t know how you would prove that.

    2. Arctic*

      Alison answered a question like this once. Link in the follow-up. The answer was it is mostly technically legal federally in the US (unless it takes the wages below minimum wage) although some states may bar it. But it is a terrible practice.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What? Fine someone for a no call no show?

      You mean that they charge you a fee for not showing up? Like “Okay that’s $25 we’re taking out of your next check!”

      No. You cannot lawfully deduct from wages owed unless it’s an agreement beforehand. This includes docking pay for clocking in “errors” or “failure to clock in” kind of thing.

      If it’s a 1099, then it may be theft of services. I am not sure if the labor board would be involved or if it’s a contract dispute in the end, it could be in a contract I presume because there’s different things involved when contractors are involved

      But absolutely you cannot dock pay for weird random things as a W-2 employee. Unless you have an agreement in place such as for uniform fees [that depends on state though, some can’t charge for uniforms] or if you have IRA contributions or a company subsidy of some kind. Sometimes they’ll have deals with gym memberships or whatever, that is group plan and they pay for for example. Then they can deduct dues. But it all has to be prearranged and cannot be a “punishment” kind of fine thing. You must pay wages in full as a general rule of thumb.

      If they advance you monies, like for moving expenses or a sign on bonus with a stipulation of you must be there a year or something. They can then deduct that but again, it’s a contract that they have in place and are vary transparent about. But that’s not a punishment setup, that’s an agreement that they have in place.

      1. 1234*

        I have no idea how she does it, if it comes out of the current paycheck (I have seen that too, with other companies) or if she invoices them for $5K for failure to provide agreed upon services?

        She just said “In my contracts, I say the fine for no call no show is $Xthousand. I have never had a problem with staff not showing up.” She did mention that the $Xthousand is for staff who had signed a contract for a long-term project (~1 year)? I’m asking because the fine is higher than any I’ve seen. I have a feeling she hires people 1099 and not W2.

      2. fposte*

        “But absolutely you cannot dock pay for weird random things as a W-2 employee.”

        In your state, true. In other states, not so true. From SHRM: “Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) does not prohibit employers from reducing a nonexempt worker’s hourly wage rate as a disciplinary action as long as the reduction does not drop the employee’s pay below minimum wage.” Even in states that require agreement for something like deduction of breakage costs, agreement is often a sine qua non of the hire.

    4. fposte*

      A 1099 worker isn’t an employee; they’re a contractor. You can write all kinds of penalties on both sides for a 1099 contract (think lateness fees for payment on the other side) and the DOL won’t care (as long as they’re not misclassified employees).

      For a W2 employee, it’s a lot trickier. Disciplinary docking, which is what this would be, isn’t federally illegal but it’s filled with landmines. The state may matter and the classification of the employee may matter: for a nonexempt employee, for instance, they’re asking for trouble if the docking would take an employee below minimum wage for the pay period; for an exempt employee, they risk making the employee non-exempt. (Also allow for the possibility that this person is BSing either to their employees or in claiming this policy.)

  120. Conflicted dude*

    I have a weird predicament. I’m leaving a job where I have been treated very well but ultimately got very bored and decided to get out before my work suffered. I honestly thought this was a great workplace. However, after the announcement went out that I was leaving, a few people at the company, all women, approached me and let me know about some serious issues with gender pay gaps, arguably gendered differential treatment in performance reviews, a senior executive who has been sued for harassment multiple times and kept on, the extreme cynicism of a recent diversity initiative, etc. They would like me to at least mention some of these issues in my exit interview. I would actually like to do so because I find it all deeply upsetting, but since I have no firsthand knowledge, I’m wondering if there’s any point. Anyone have any thoughts? Thx.

      1. Grand Mouse*

        The employees are part of the company though, and they havea legal obligation to prevent gender disparities and harassment in the workplace. I’m not sure how effective exit interviews are, but the multiple women coming up to them suggests they are trustworthy and seen as someone with some power to do something.

        1. valentine*

          I would leave them to it. They can go to HR at any time. I don’t see how you bringing it up at the literal last minute will have a positive effect for them (and it’s probably worse if it does!) and you probably don’t want that to be your employer’s last memory of you .

      2. WellRed*

        A good HR department understands that protecting the company includes paying attention to fair and equal treatment of employees. Maybe I’ve been lucky to only ever work where HR knows what it’s doing.

    3. Colette*

      I don’t think I’d mention those issues – not because they aren’t important, but because you have no direct knowledge of them (and I’m not sure how they know about them). And for the senior executive, it sounds like HR already knows.

    4. CM*

      I would bring it up by saying something like, “I’ve always thought of this as a great workplace, but since giving notice I’ve heard from several women that they have had problems here. I’m concerned about these issues and I know you would be too, so I wanted to bring them up. I won’t name the people who talked to me about this, but I’ve described the issues here and I hope you will look into them.” And then I would hand them a document detailing the issues you’ve heard about. I would also send a copy to the women you talked to — give them a hard copy, don’t use your company email or theirs. If there is a paper trail, they will be less able to ignore it. And if you frame it as, “I know you care about these issues and I’m sure you have no idea they exist and will want to address them immediately because this is such a wonderful workplace,” it’s less like you’re dropping a bomb… even though you are.

  121. Blueberry Girl*

    Fellow Academic Librarians, how much does “faculty status” matter to you? Or fellow academic workers, I suppose. I have taken a job where I am paid considerably more than I would make if I were faculty at the same institution and have better benefits. My duties haven’t changed, but I’ve found some strange push back from folks claiming I made a huge mistake. So, I’m curious- How does being faculty or not being faculty impact your jobs in libraries/archives/museums?

    1. merp*

      When I was job hunting for academic library jobs, I was paying attention to 2 main things: if librarians are faculty, are they subject to strict publishing requirements, and what would the pay difference be? I mostly seemed to find the opposite from you, that faculty libs were better paid that staff libs, so I was looking for those since I had a few publications I could show off and thought I could do more if needed. But as far as just a title/status thing? Nah, I didn’t care about that.

      1. LibrariAnne*

        Echoing this as well, the promotion scheme and how faculty status ties into that is way more important to me than the “prestige” – however, I’m in the tech services side of things which can be really different from the reference/instruction/research side of things I know. I also know it often carries more weight in the archive & museum side of things than in the typical library. For what it’s worth, all of my positions have fallen under the umbrella of various types of “non-teaching faculty” but that’s coincidence, I have not sought them out.

      2. Blueberry Girl*

        Yes, you are right. Generally I have found that non-tenure faculty at libraries who also have faculty librarians are lower paid, which I find deeply troubling. However, at this particular institution, I would have had to have come in as an Assistant Professor status which would have been a considerable pay cut from what they are offering me as staff. So, for me it really is just a title issue and that’s what I was curious about. If it just a title issue, how to people approach it?

    2. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      I don’t want to dive into the “publish or perish” world, so I’ve avoided faculty jobs. I’m pretty low-paid right now, and how I’m viewed by faculty varies a lot (some are very collaborative and respectful, others very entitled); but I imagine that’s also just…human.

    3. Paige*

      I really don’t care about it (caveat: I’m staff, but do the work of a librarian). I have zero interest in faculty status because I don’t want the hassle of publishing, etc., but the way faculty vs. staff are perceived by their peers can vary drastically between institutions. I’ve worked in academic libraries where the only way you knew the difference was by looking at individual employee pages listing their job title, and in academic libraries where faculty are treated as holier-than-thou, too-good-to-do-lowly-staff-work-but-still-want-to-make-all-the-decisions. It just varies wildly.

      Where I am now, non-faculty make about half what the faculty do, and while that kinda sucks, I’d rather just focus on my day-to-day work and again, not worry about presenting or publishing. It’s worth it to me to be able to leave my work at work rather than traveling to conferences, etc., and where I am currently, my knowledge is valued even though I’m staff, so it’s a fair trade. It sounds a little insane to me that you found a job where you make more but *aren’t* faculty, unless you’re in upper administration. I say more power to you; the most important thing is being happy with the work you’re doing, and if it is giving you what you need in terms of professional development. As long as you’ve got the library degree and are working in the field, you’re not hurting yourself; everyone in the profession knows that faculty status isn’t always easy to come by.

      If you do want to move into a faculty position eventually, the one thing I’d say is to be sure you are still publishing/presenting some–don’t let that fall by the wayside, because it is important for faculty.

    4. tape deck*

      I’ve been faculty at two public universities now and imo the main benefit is having a formal role in university governance. Both for its own sake, and also because the increased face time with other academic depts makes us more visible on campus. So the benefit is more big-picture, long-term, and the actual value is going to be heavily dependent on the institution and how they do things. Would I give it up for more money and better benefits? Probably. Although I think it’s unusual for staff librarians to be better paid than teaching faculty. I didn’t love being tenure track, but now I’m non-tenure-track and it’s the best of both worlds. I know a lot of librarians who feel strongly about it, though.

    5. Spoons please*

      Faculty status- yes. Tenure track- no. I want faculty status because I’m in public services and in order to serve on committees, and to be seen less as support staff by teaching faculty, faculty status helps a lot.

  122. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I’m really over the few people out there that work for entities with very specific strange procedures that they force upon their supplier network, that get bent out of shape and straight up rude when you ask them for assistance. Don’t put in an order from an outside source and then get mad when I don’t know your weird portal system that you just put into place.

    I literally got an email that was addressed to “Whoever,” and went on to say that they couldn’t help me in getting additional information required for their purchase so that their AP squad can pay us…and when I responded with “Okay, while this is under investigation, the account is going to be disabled until further notice.” SUDDENLY! Wow within a minute, that person and their counterpart they immediately forwarded my response to responded with that documentation that I was requesting. LMAO Checkmate.

    I hate having to be a hardass, I always approach softly but don’t think I don’t have it in me to just yank the plug on your account and remove credit terms if you want to play rough.

    I’m still really only angry about the flippant email being addressed to “whoever”, that’s the crudest way of addressing an email I’ve seen in my decades of experience with a lot of very casual correspondence.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Thank you for this validation.

        My full response about disabling the account included a comment about the attitude issue as well because don’t spit in my face and tell me that I just need to take it on the chin. I’ll cut you.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Right? And I was laughing the other day because someone who was clearly ESL and therefore, I give a large allowance for awkwardness in translation to for greeting me as “Hi lady!” and then “Here’s your order, lady!”

        I know that they were probably thinking it’s like “ma’am” or something so I just smiled. But “whoever” is like not excusable on whatever level anywhere.

    3. 1234*

      It literally says “whoever?” That is incredibly rude. Not even “Hello, AP department/Finance Team?”

      Clearly it wasn’t an emergency to them that your company got paid for goods/services rendered, until they can no longer have these goods/services. Imagine that, they’re oh-so-helpful now. *eye roll*

    4. Gumby*

      Maybe not strange procedures, but we do have one customer in Germany that asked us for a quote, ignored all of our terms and conditions, and sent back a purchase order with several things that directly contradict things in our quote. Also if Google translate is not leading me astray they seem to think a 3% discount for prompt payment is a totally okay thing to insert into the proceedings. Um, no. Paying when you get the invoice is expected. That could be a business culture thing, maybe it’s standard for them, but it is wildly out of line for us.

      Also, no one at my company speaks German and TPTB there insist on it. (If you are a US tourist and walk into a store in another country and insist that the locals do business in English you are rightfully mocked as a clueless American. So when you come to a US-based company and want to buy a US-made product I don’t think I am out of line for being peeved at your “we only do business in German.”) Look, I could handle Chinese, Hindi, Spanish, Danish, Russian, and several other languages in house but we are not hiring someone who is fluent in German legalese just to sell you something that *you* want. Also, we have worked with at least 2 other similar institutions from Germany both of which were much easier to work with. So much easier.

  123. Sovereign HR*

    Saw this online earlier this week:

    Known anyone to take ONE DAY of FMLA?

    Halloween is blocked and I suffer from PTSD on Halloween. Some years are fine, some aren’t. It hit me late this year. HR refuses to give me me any less than IFMLA for one year. The medical “papers” will say I need the one day off. Tried requesting PTO and as a courtesy told them I may need to take FMLA. Was told I shouldn’t have said that. Responded that I wasn’t going to be the “well I’ll just take FMLA since you denied it.”

    IFMLA is a stigma at my work. People praise their perfect attendance while calling in 30 seconds before their shift on IFMLA, thus messing up the numbers.

    I don’t want favors, either . It ruins my argument to have perfect attendance numbers removed.

    ADA does not apply at my job.

    Help!

    1. EJane*

      Is your employer too small for the ADA? What state are you in? I also have PTSD and a boatload of resources; I can do some digging.

    2. fposte*

      Question about couple of things. “HR refuses to give me any less than IFMLA for one year” sounds like they just automatically authorize intermittent FMLA for a year rather than futzing in smaller increments. If so, why not just take the authorization and only use the one day? Second, “ADA does not apply at my job.” I can’t figure out how an employer big enough to be covered by FMLA isn’t covered by the ADA–can you explain?

      1. fposte*

        Actually, it looks like you may not be the original poster but just a reposter. My guess is that the person is 1) wrong about the ADA and 2) uncomfortable with the year authorization because it’s important to them to only ask for the one day. As I said, I’d just accept the authorization and take the one day.

    3. Me*

      I think something is getting lost in translation between either HR and the FMLA rules or HR and you.

      Basically, if your employer and you both meet the FMLA qulifications, you are entitled up to 12 weeks in a 12 month period for a an FMLA qualifying situation. There’s a couple ways the 12 month period are calculate, but it sounds like your employer counts it from the first day you take leave. So regardless if you need 1 hour or 1 day or 15 days, you are covered for 12 months. Essentially it’s in effect for 12 months. If you have a different issue that comes up within that 12 month period, you don’t get another 12 weeks, you’d get 11 weeks and 6 days (in your circumstances). I hope that gave some clarification.

      Now, my question is, why can’t you just take regular sick leave. Are you not able to call out sick at your employer?

    4. !*

      My husband has FMLA accommodations that allow him to pass on working more than one shift (he’s a nurse), and take off when his back pain gets to be too much. It’s normal FMLA that he uses when he needs to, and it’s usually less than 5 times a year. You should absolutely just take FMLA when you think they will push back on your using PTO time. Perfect attendance is for suckers anyway. ;)

    5. Sovereign HR*

      Hi all.

      The ADA does not apply on tribal land.

      Halloween is a blacked out “holiday” for us.

      The difference between a day one person who didn’t call in and a day two person who called in once is THIRTY SPOTS on the forced ranking. It’s crazy.

      Your IFMLA argument makes sense. I thank you for that. It’s just that IFMLA is such a crutch for many at work. Why they are on it is not my business. What ticks me off is when we start at 8am and one or two people call in at 7:59 am on IFMLA when it’s common knowledge they were going to be late and couldn’t risk the forced ranking sick by showing up thirty seconds late.

      But then they will tout how they have perfect attendance all year.

      This is why I don’t want to ask anyone for the day off. There are bigger issues here in relation to attendance, and every time someone calls in with IFMLA but gets 1000 dollars for perfect attendance I go bonkers.

  124. ActuallyICan*

    I’m looking for advice about places to learn about… work-appropriate make-up. I’ve not been a regular make-up wearer since I gave up on the stuff in my early twenties, and I recently turned 40. I have been using good stuff to wash and moisturize my face, so my skin is in good shape. The only times I’ve really worn anything have been for game show appearances in the last five years, and the pros took care of me then! Anyhow…. if it makes a difference in your recommendations, I’m a very pale white lady who lives in SoCal with sensitive skin (false eyelashes are Right Out), and I can afford to spend decent money on something that looks good. I don’t want to spend more than 10-15 minutes per day on the “regimen”, but I know people who are super into it who spend an hour fixing their face each morning, and their advice has not been helpful.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Mac counter. And false lashes aren’t out, there are some very realistic short ones that save me a lot of time.

    2. littlelizard*

      Specific products will vary based on your skin, but lightly-applied (with a sponge) foundation or tinted moisturizer, plus a light brown eyeshadow and some neutral lipstick is my ‘I am trying to be super subdued for this interview/professional event’ look. A light brow gel, too. I’m a little less cautious about the very-natural-very-light thing at any job I actually have, since I do have skin problems I’m covering up and also no one really cares here. But for interviews, carefully applied base makeup + eyebrow makeup + a swipe of light brown eyeshadow + neutral lipstick is my go-to.

      1. EJane*

        That list is excellent as a starting point. To be a little more specific: If you have good skin, looking for a tinted sunscreen/bb or cc cream will be a good idea. BB= Blemish Balm, CC=color correcting; they’re trendy versions of tinted moisturizer with varying amounts of pigment. Also, a moisturizing option over a conventional foundation will minimize the need for carefully prepping your skin.
        Korean foundation brands tend to be really lovely, but their shade range is limited. Missha, A’Pieu and Laneige are good places to start. If you’re very pale, you’ll want to go for a 13 or 17; 21 miiiight work, but it’ll probably be too yellow. (Korean foundation uses a universal numbering system.) They also all have a boatload of sunscreen in them.
        On the American side, Clinique has excellent foundations for sensitive skin. Using a wet sponge also helps lighten coverage. (fyi sponge=colored makeup sponge that you pre-wet, not one of the white wedges.) You can apply tinted moisturizer or bb/cc cream with your hands fingers in a pinch, as it’s thin enough that you won’t leave prints or streaks (as long as you’re thorough).

        For brows, I recommend tinted brow gel over pencil, for ease of use; Anastasia is a general go-to, but I also like Kaja and Benefit. Nyx has a good, inexpensive pencil, as does ColourPop.
        Eyes: Eyelash curler, two shades of eyeshadow (a light, neutral brown and a very light creamy/pink color) and good mascara will work in every situation. Smashbox makes very good liners for smudging into the lash line, which is a good way to keep things understated instead of creating a harsh line. Working the brown into your crease and touching the middle and inside of your eyelid with the light color is a good option if you’re not feeling a swipe of brown like littlelizard suggested.
        I personally ADORE tarte shadows, and they sell little mini-palettes; the color payoff is good, and they smell amazing. Tarte’s also a very conscientious brand.
        Morphe also makes excellent mini-palettes.

        Auntie Social is right, in that there are good, understated false lashes; the eyelure demi/wispy lashes (you can get them at target) are a good example.
        Mascara, you don’t need to spend a lot of money. I really like It’s So Big by Elizabeth Moss mascara; it’s a tubing formula, so it’s water resistant and won’t flake.

        A swipe of blush will keep your face bright–I HIGHLY recommend the hourglass blush; it’s ludicrously expensive, but the best, most natural and flattering blush I’ve ever used–and you don’t need to worry about contour or bronzing or any of that nonsense. If you feel you look pale or desaturated, Hourglass’s ambient lighting powders are…. honestly, they’re unreal. I use Dim Light, and it keeps me looking not-dead and is the only powder I’ve ever seen that actually does that “blurring and perfecting” hooey so many brands claim.

        Lips, you can do a colored balm (like burts bees), a moisturizing lipstick (tarte’s rainforest of the sea lipsticks are very good) or a lip tint. I LOVE the macqueen new york air cushion tints (also Korean) but they do tend to come in brighter, trendier colors. You’ll want to look for something marketed with brownish tones, or something labeled as MLBB, which stands for my lips but better.

        My makeup routine takes about ten minutes: moisturizer, color corrector (I have infuriating acne), foundation (I use a cushion compact; takes very little time to apply), brows, lids, lashes, blot (my foundation is very moisturizing and tends to get a little too dewy), blush and lips. I use a small, compact brush for my shadow, a big fluffy one for my blush, and a sponge for my makeup. Other than that, you don’t need 80 brushes. MAC makes the industry standard for brushes, and Morphe makes very, very good, inexpensive brushes.

        To be honest, hitting up a Sephora and looking for someone wearing minimal makeup, and asking them for assistance, is a good idea. It’ll be hard this time of year, because they’re expected to wear halloween makeup. Alternately, you can ask to talk to a Sephora color consultant (they’re the staff that specialize in skin), and bring reference photos for what you want to look like. I personally dislike the MAC counter because the customer service isn’t great, and Ulta’s makeup artists’ average skill set tends to be lower.
        (Everything I’ve listed can be bought at Sephora or Ulta, or on amazon.)

        Good luck!

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Go to the makeup counter at a Department store. Pick a brand you like (you seem like you might be a Bobbie Brown candidate), explain what you are looking for and have them put together something for you. Also, I LIKE make up and wear it, but it never takes me longer than 10 minutes.

    4. Grace*

      I’m early twenties and have been a makeup lover for a few years, but I’ve got my workday routine to 10-15 minutes (let’s not talk about how long I’ll spend when I have the time) and multiple recommendations I’ve made to friends and acquaintances who are closer to you than me in age have been received well, so maybe this will come in useful.

      My go-to after moisturising is:
      – Primer and eyeshadow primer (because I have oily skin – may not be a concern for others)
      – Concealer (under-eyes, any major spots, the redness on my nose, the melasma on my upper lip – not caked on, just enough to mute the colour)
      – Eyeshadow (if I’m rushing, literally just one colour swiped across the lid, even though I will happily spend an hour on my eyes at the weekend – cream shadows like Colourpop are really good for this)
      – Mascara
      – Loose powder (again, oily skin – this is a necessity for me. Even my ‘no makeup days’ when I don’t leave the house, I still powder my face after washing so I don’t become a greaseball)
      – Blush (I’m super pale, so I go for a peachy blush)
      – Highlight (this is a necessity for me but it certainly isn’t for everyone, so maybe experiment with a super cheap one before going for the high-end stuff)
      – Lipstick (also 100% a necessity all the time for me; I use liquid lipsticks or lip stains because I usually don’t have to touch them up after lunch)

      Things I do sometimes but not all the time:
      – Foundation – for me, only if I’m having a bad skin day. Light coverage, sponged on.
      – Brows – yes, I know they’re supposed to be a necessity, but I only bother if I’m wearing contacts. My glasses hide them otherwise. I usually just touch up the sparse areas with a medium-brown powder shadow.

      That’s a ten-fifteen minute routine once you have it down pat and know exactly what you’re doing even when half-asleep, I promise. Even five if I really speed through it.

    5. OtterB*

      I went years without wearing any makeup. I started singing with a chorus a few years ago. We are supposed to wear “heavy street makeup” for our performances. I was at a total loss, and threw myself on the mercy of our makeup chair. She recommended light foundation or tinted moisturizer, mascara, and lipstick as the basics, with eyeliner, neutral eye shadow, and brow pencil as optional add-ons. She also did a demonstration one week where she made up one side of her face and not the other and stood across the room from us. The made-up side was visible and the other looked pretty washed out. So I still don’t normally wear makeup to work, but if I’m giving a presentation I do, and am comfortable with it.

    6. AndreaC*

      YouTube can be helpful, too. Certainly there are a ton of “beauty gurus” who have some complicated makeup, but there are some who teach you how to apply a light look and what products are good.

      Also, I second the Mac counter. I usually just put on some mascara and eyeliner and call it a day. Eyeshadow if I’m feeling fancy.

    7. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I went to Sephora, told them that I was looking for an easy, natural makeup for a business casual workplace. I told them what I wanted – and what I didn’t want – and they did a great job. I use foundation, under eye concealer, mascara, eyebrow pencil and gel, blush, and setting powder. Takes me 5-7 minutes max. Honestly my skincare routine takes longer than my make up. It doesn’t have to be complicated or time consuming to get a good result. Oh, and don’t be put off by any of the Sephora folks with really elaborate makeup – they’re happy to do something simpler for you.

    8. Just Elle*

      I love this, I’m on the same journey too! I’m TERRIBLE at applying makeup, and every time I see a woman at work wearing really thick/obvious makeup it makes me really distracted. But I also want to look polished and professional instead of tired.

      I just had a poll on social media and found that for the most ‘natural’ makeup look:
      In: mascara, neutral eyeshadow, under eye circle concealer, lip gloss or neutral lipstick, light blush, BB cream style foundation
      Out: weird colors, eyeliner if you can’t do it well (read: no thick black eyeliner), thick/obvious foundation, contouring unless you’re really good at it.

      I’m super happy with the Glossier ‘lidstar’ eyeshadow. Its a liquid and the applicator looks like a lip gloss applicator. You just dab it on your eyelid and then smear it around with your finger. Super easy.

      I pair that with clear mascara (can’t stand smudgy black stuff near my eyes), under eye concealer, and a tinted lip balm.
      If I’m feeling extra fancy, I’ll use a dark eyeshadow and a flat small eyeliner brush to apply powder eyeshadow as if its eyeliner. I find its much more subtle and natural that way – applying a straight line of eyeliner is hopeless for me.
      I really avoid foundation if I can, it just always looks so fake to me (I have very light skin). But I did find a tinted ‘setting’ powder that I use as an all over foundation / SPF on days I want more coverage.

    9. Ama*

      This is my normal work day makeup (takes 5 minutes):
      Moisturizer
      blush
      eyeshadow primer (so it doesn’t all work into my crease by the end of the day) and neutral eyeshadow (most of my shades are in very light pink or gold tones)
      translucent powder that helps prevent oiliness

      For interviews/important meetings/events, I will add dark brown eyeliner and lip gloss in a fairly neutral pink.

      I also have super sensitive skin/eye allergies and I swear by Tarte products because they don’t cause me any problems.

      The blog isn’t active any longer but one of the places I learned a lot about things like eyeshadow primer (which makes a huge difference for me) was a woman who wrote reviews of beauty subscription boxes, I discovered a ton of interesting products through her reviews of the individual products and she would also mention random beauty tips I didn’t know, since my mom basically doesn’t wear makeup at all.

      If you can find a good Sephora staff person they can sometimes give you really good recommendations and show you how to apply things.

    10. Reliquary*

      I’m in higher ed, where you’re supposed to look like you don’t wear makeup at all. I’m in my 50s. My skin tone is pretty much “porcelain” with pink (not yellow) undertones, which means I do better with “cool” rather than “warm” colors. It takes me 10 minutes or less to do this on work mornings.
      1) Moisturizing day cream. I like the Missha Time Revolution Immortal Youth Cream.
      2) Eyebrow pencil and gel. I like BoyBrow by Glossier, but their brown is too brown for me, so I use the clear. Before I brush it on, I give my brows a little more shape using an Urban Decay 24/7 Glide-On eye pencil in a gray tone (Desperation). It’s perfect for me.
      3) Powder foundation, dusted on with a kabuki brush (I recommend Ecotools retractable kabuki brush) . I like the lightest shade of Lancome Dual Finish, because it has a pink/cool undertone. Most brands have warm/yellow undertones, and they look horrible on me. Pur 4 in 1 Pressed Mineral powder is also a good one.
      4) Lipstick. I like long-lasting matte liquids. Just find what you like.

  125. LQ*

    I’ve been waiting (only for like a month, but it feels like forever) for a position to get posted that I will absolutely be applying for and it will be part of a reorg that should move someone who is currently a bit of a tyrant into a much lower impact role. But the stupid role is held up with HR so the whole reorg is being held up too. Meanwhile, she’s busy tyranting it up. (It’s mostly her, but it’s a lot of people reacting to her too which makes it worse.) And our boss keeps trying to tell her to knock it off, but he is super nonconfrontational. This reorg IS his confrontation with her, but she knows something is coming so she’s flailing around. I just want it done so she stops making everything 100 times harder than it needs to be. At this point my boss’s boss’s boss is involved to try to get HR to move faster and they are still creating roadblocks.

    On the upside, I’m really kind of crushing my job right now. Which is great.

    How do other folks hold out and tell other folks to hold out when everything is taking longer than it should? Everything here moves slow and this is quick relatively, but the flailer is making everything so much harder that people are getting really upset fast which isn’t great either. Just, have patience…

  126. Eponymous*

    Update from a few weeks ago: I switched to using removable panniers for school, a laptop bag and shoulder bag for work, and another bag for weekends away from home. No more worries about unmentionables stuck in my schoolwork or forgetting my bike lock/planner/wallet in the wrong bag. Now I need to get a bunch of cold-weather gear for cycling.

    Balancing work and school is still a challenge. One project manager gave me an assignment a few weeks ago with no solid deadline and is now annoyed that I’ve barely had the chance to work on it since I’ve been dealing with some incredibly short turn-around times and some rather needy clients. Now I have to get his project done at the exclusion of some of my other work. Not a great situation.

  127. WellRed*

    Low stakes FYI of the day, but there are frequent requests here for work pant recommendations. I’m happy to report my new Betabrand Yoga work pants were comfy over two very long days, and fit and length were as advertised.

  128. Heidi Klum*

    I’m interviewing for temp jobs / mall jobs / ANYTHING right now. I’m super broke. I was a high-level position at my last job, and long story short… despite my high ranking, I have very little money because got out of an abusive situation, moved to a new city, and now need to find something fast. I’m having a really tough time at interviews though.

    I toned down my resume to focus on admin work because I figured I could get something like that a lot faster. When I went into interviews at first, I feel like… I don’t know… like the interviews could sense I wasn’t “just an admin”? Like, one of them even said it. Even though my resume said only admin work, she was like, “You’re not an administrative assistant.” Like, I’m too confident? (No offense to admins sorry!!!!). I got this reaction a couple more times, like, people being confused why someone *like me* would want that job.

    So then I tried toning it down… being more demure… but now I feel like I’m coming across shy or unenthusiastic. One recruiter even called me out and commented on my “nervousness” a few times.

    I’m still interviewing for the higher-level jobs but they’re SO SLOWWWW and I need something now!!!! Aghhhh.

    Any advice on how to interview for a job like this?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      No advice on the specific question, but it seems like the local news reports daily on places hiring holiday help. Have you looked at any of those jobs? Maybe a temporary, bulk hiring process would not put the time into sussing out whether you’re a fit for a role.

        1. Heidi Klum*

          Yeah I did apply for an amazon job but they get picked up super super fast, like within minutes. i haven’t considered ups though!

    2. Chili*

      For mall jobs, I’ve found stopping by some place you actually shop/ would like to shop in person and giving them a resume (and letting them know you applied online) actually works– especially around the holidays when places are desperate for extra staff. Since you used to be a pretty high-up professional, maybe you should look into stores that sell professional clothes and stores that have a higher price point. Maybe some places in the vein of MM La Fleur, Ann Taylor, or Brooks Brothers? I feel like the put-together, professional vibes you organically create would be more appreciated at places like that than places that cater to a more casual crowd.

      2. Just Elle*

        Ooh White House Black Market might be a good one for this! They really want stylists who are more like personal shoppers.
        I think you need to stop hiding who you are and just own it. “I was an exec, but honestly, I’m really excited for a different path. I have always had a passion for clothing and I’m excited to take some time to get involved in it.” Find some positive aspect of a lower level job and just convey excitement for that.
        No one likes feeling lied to and its just too hard to cover up past work history like that.

  129. Grand Mouse*

    Help with anxiety in he workplace?

    I’ll say upfront that I am on medication and have been in therapy for years (not this year because of insurance troubles but I’m getting back into it)

    Both of my recent jobs have had managers who are offsite. I don’t work with anyone else from my company, since I’m the contracted cleaning service.

    I only met my former supervisor once, and all our communications were through notes. She was always critical of what I was doing, but I could never get feedback on how to do things better. Never praise. My confidence was shot the whole time, even though the people in the building were friendly and liked my work

    Now I have another offsite manager, though I do see him once in a while when he drops off supplies. We primarily communicate by texting. I constantly feel like I am annoying him, since his answers are very to the point. And I feel stupid for telling him about an issue that gets resolved later. Like we were told there was a suspicious package found in front of the building, so I should stay inside and not go near the front. I sent him a message, and a half hour later found out it was a false alarm. I feel like I shouldn’t have bothered him

    I also had an unpleasant experience with him wrt to my anxiety. I’m not proud of it, but I called him when I was having a panic attack right before I was supposed to start. I told him I wasn’t sure if I could come in. He said maybe this isn’t the right job for me.

    I did pull it together and go in after a late start, but that’s always been stuck in my head. I know I can’t expect my boss to handhold me and reassure me. That’s a lot to ask even for people in my personal life. Is there a way to have a professional conversation to put some of these fears to rest?

    Oh yeah and I’m also the person who was looking for treatment for ADHD. I did get meds but they will take a while to be effective if they work. A reason I bring this up is a lot of fear I’m not performing well due to ADHD. Thanks!

    1. EJane*

      Reading this, you reminded me really strongly of me. I’ve been in your shoes; I had a MASSIVE panic attack in front of my boss about three weeks after I started at my current job, and she said something similar. It stuck with me for a long time.

      Regarding a professional conversation, there is something I’ve done that’s helped on more than one occasion. Ask your manager if you can have a bit of time to communicate with him via voice/face to face, as that will help convey your sincerity. Acknowledge past issues and touch briefly on your struggles (“I have been struggling somewhat with my health over these last few months, and I know it’s negatively affected me at work. I’m particularly concerned about the impression I left on the day I started. I wanted to acknowledge that it was unprofessional, and thank you for your patience with me that day”), and clarify how you’ll be moving forward (“I’m making a concerted effort to improve on x y z and am aware I likely have room to grow in x area. I would welcome any feedback you have, of any sort, going forward.”) Keep open-ended questions to a minimum for this conversation, because you want the overall impact to be one of “I am taking responsibility for myself and not asking you to solve my problems” (which is not the impression I’m getting from you at all, by the way). I would recommend saying something along the lines of “What kind of updates would you like from me on a regular basis? For instance, with the false alarm package the other week; would you have preferred I only message you if it was going to make me late, or have handled it differently in any other way?”

      One of the best ways to manage my anxiety, I found, was to pin down a specific question and ask that specific question only. I tend to ramble, when I don’t focus, and overgeneralize, and then it all goes to shit.

      1. Grand Mouse*

        Oh for clarification it wasn’t on my first day I had the panic attack! It’s been a year and it’s still rattled me. Specific questions are good though, thank you.

        I did grow up in a very strict, unforgiving family so this is a lifetime issue.

        1. EJane*

          OH GOD I grew up in a similar situation. Mistakes were the end of the world, and I was never quite sure what was or wasn’t going to count as a mistake.

          I was terrified of my female boss for almost 9 months, because she reminded me of my stepmom. Talking to her made my heart catch in my throat. I so get it.

          1. Grand Mouse*

            YES at not being sure what would count as a mistake. That definitely does a number on you. You can never trust your own perceptions and are constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop.

            So sorry about the manager that reminded you of your stepmom. Was she as bad or just an unfortunate similarity?

            1. EJane*

              Really unfortunate similarity. We ended up having a long conversation a few months ago that helped a lot, and I came out of that scenario understanding that I really need to treat her like a coworker in terms of the amount of emotional maturity and impartiality I can expect from her.
              Changing that expectation made for a night and day difference; I no longer feel my heart rate spike when I talk to her.

    2. Lyudie*

      I wish I had some for you. Mine has been bad for a while now (I am trying to get the insurance to approve the brand name vs the generic drug I’ve been taking because I suspect it’ll work better with less side effects–I have learned generics are not always the same as the brand name!). Plus my motivation and focus are in the toilet. I’ve lately been wondering if I have ADD/ADHD but I’m not sure…might just be med side effects or burnout or something else. In any case, the only help I have to give is that you’re not alone!

      1. Grand Mouse*

        My insurance only gives me the generics. I didn’t know there was a difference wrt brand name or not! I could bring it up to my doctors, especially since the strategy so far has been switching to another med when the current one isn’t working like I hoped.

        Side note: I take lamictal (generic form) for seizures and bipolar. Obviously it is very important to take it. But I keep forgetting to take it in the morning! My doctor gave me a version that would work all day but my new insurance doesn’t cover it. Urgh. That could also be a factor for why I’m struggling

        1. Lyudie*

          Sometimes the generics are totally fine! I have been taking generic Wellbutrin for years and it works as well as the brand name did. But the generic Lexapro I’ve been taking is definitely different, when I first switched my dr. had to cut my dose back dramatically and taper me back up because the side effects were so bad. I want to try going back on brand name now because the side effects are back, but my insurance is now refusing to cover it without a prior authorization, and I’m now waiting to see if they’ll approve it now that I have that.

        2. 1LFTW*

          Ohhh, skipping lamictal will definitely eff you up. I was warned that skipping a dose could potentially cause a seizure even in people who weren’t taking it for seizure disorders. I was at 300 mg for years, and could always tell within an hour if I’d forgotten to take it.

          My doc also told me that some generic versions of that med only have 70% bioavailability of the active ingredient. It meant I couldn’t use the Costco pharmacy to fill that prescription – I learned that the hard way. So yeah, not only can there be a huge difference between name brand vs generic, but not all generics are created equal.

  130. Heath Bar*

    What’s a response to those that say “I’m doing the best I can.” when given feedback? These employees have demonstrated in the past that their performance can and has exceeded what they are exhibiting.

    1. fposte*

      That doesn’t mean they can perform to that level right now, though–they may have a changed workload, or health problems, or personal stuff. Have you asked if there are ways you could help, and have you explored with them why the performance might have changed? Is performance benchmarkable, and do they have to get back up to higher levels if they’re to keep their job?

    2. Colette*

      People’s best can change over time, especially if they are dealing with health or family issues. Is their best right now good enough? Or do you need them to do better?

    3. Young Buck*

      I have two that will response that way. I have sat down and discussed this with them and nothing in their lives nor our work environment has changed. One has a tendency to be lazy and this tends to be their response. The other has poor time management, which we have worked with in developing a daily plan (their work is mundane and never changes).

    4. LQ*

      What is getting in your way from performing …x?

      I’d also consider what the circumstances were that have changed. Was there an unsung team member who made everyone else’s jobs easier but no one called it out and you missed it? Was there external pressure that made people bring more than they normally have for a short period?

    5. Drew*

      The previous replies all have good points, but I suggest focusing on the job rather than the person. “Barney, you need to produce 20 teapots a week. The past four weeks, you’re averaging only 16. I need you to bring that back up to 20 moving forward. If that’s a problem, let’s talk it out and see if we can figure out a way to make it work.”

  131. Always questions, seldom answers*

    Brief update.
    Had an interview on Wednesday. They asked for references at the end of the interview. Sent them yesterday morning.
    Fingers crossed. Not sure how well I did – must have done ok to ask for references, but I struggled answering a little when they asked why I want to leave, and they acknowledged my last two jobs (this one and previous one) have both been less than a year each.
    And husband had an interview last week. Waiting to hear what next steps are. There are two top candidates – one who lives away, one (husband) who lives local but works for a company that contracts this company. Hoping things pan out…
    Have a great weekend, all!

  132. AvonLady Barksdale*

    This week was the first I have ever felt truly valuable in my job. I sometimes feel valued, because I do the work and I’m good at most of it, but I always feel like my boss doesn’t realize or care that I came in with over 10 years of experience and good relationships. I have been at my job for three years, so this is looooong overdue.

    Basically, a former colleague of mine reached out to talk about a potential project, and if we get the business it will put our work in front of some very important people. Maybe I should try to get a commission.

    Then, I was assigned to do some work that I used to do a ton of but haven’t had the opportunity to do in my current role. I am very good at this type of work– it’s one of the few things I feel confident about– and I know I did a great job on this project. I just wish my boss didn’t seem so surprised.

    My next job? I will have to find a way to screen for this and make sure I’m being hired because my experience is valued, not just to do the work.

  133. Bye bye job (anon for this)*

    My company is cutting my department, which means that I’m being laid off, or at least that I’m most likely being laid off. There’s some complicated things going on behind the scenes, and the union is involved, and because of that I don’t have a timeline for when the lay offs are actually happening. In the mean time I’m job searching (I have an interview lined up next week and keeping my fingers crossed), but I’m having a really hard time dealing with all the uncertainty of the situation. I have to show up at work, but I’m not getting anything done, and whatever I could to is completely pointless since the department is closing down. Any advice from anyone who has been in the same situation?

    1. CM*

      This is a tough situation! Only advice I have is to look ahead to your next job. Rather than focusing on the uncertainty at your company and the work you’re supposed to do there, think of it as your current job subsidizing your search for your next one. Until you are laid off, they are paying you to job search.

      1. Bye bye job (anon for this)*

        So far, I’ve definitely used some time every day searching for a new job, and also trying to figure out what I really want to do. It’s just hard trying to keep my energy up for eight hours a day.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I think it would be a good idea for you and your colleagues in your department to approach your manager and say, “given that this department is going to be going away, what are the expectations for our work while we’re here? Tasks X and Y, which usually take up a lot of our time, are going to be irrelevant as that part of the whole process will be going away with the department.”

      I think that maintaining a good relationship with your current employer is important in case they DON’T lay you off, or offer you a position in another department that might be good–also, so you’re more likely to get a good reference from them if you reach the point of checking references in an interview, so trying NOT to check out entirely seems like it would be a good idea. But not knowing what actually matters for you to do right now is, in fact, a problem, and your manager should be able to help out with that.

      1. Bye bye job (anon for this)*

        I have a sort-of-plan of what I’m supposed to be doing, but I have the impression that my manager finds it just as meaningless as I do. It’s such an odd feeling, going from being super busy to… nothing at all. As far as references go, I’m pretty sure the business will fold completely within the next year, and I have plenty of old managers willing to provide references, so I’m not that worried about that part.

  134. Pickled Preggo*

    OK, so bit of a dilemma here. I have been working in my current position at this job for just over two years. My workplace is one of those who don’t believe in raises (I know, I know) so my salary has been stagnant despite increasing work responsibilities and obtaining my masters in a related field. And I am underpaid for my position by about $15k. I finally approached my boss and asked for a raise and she said she will think about it and run it up the ladder to our CFO, but it might not go through until July. I am currently 14 weeks pregnant, which no one at work knows yet, I was waiting until I heard back about my raise request to announce it. The thing is, I was hoping to get a raise that would go through for the next 6 months of work, as well as my paid maternity leave, and then I was honestly hoping to jump ship and not come back after maternity. My timing isn’t fantastic, I was hoping to not get pregnant until after a raise processed, but too late now. If the raise doesn’t go through until July, is it even worth pursuing or should I drop it? Or should I try to pressure my boss to process the raise before July? Or should I start madly applying for jobs at 14 weeks pregnant and take the shortest unpaid maternity leave possible?

    1. CM*

      If it were me, I would remind the boss again every few weeks and ask for a status update and whether she has talked to the CFO yet. This would show the boss that you’re not just going to forget about it. Also, July is ridiculous — that’s nearly a year from now. So if your boss repeats that it may not happen until July, I would say “I’ve been underpaid for my position already for __ months/years. Waiting another 9 months to be paid at market rates is a long time. Is there any way this can be accelerated?” (Also, congratulations! And if you don’t get the raise, you’re only planning to stick around for another year or less, and hopefully can get a better salary at your next job.)

  135. Briar S*

    I start a new job next week! I’ve been working for the same employer for so long that I feel out of practice at starting a new job. Any advice on how to help the transition go smoothly?

    1. AndreaC*

      I spend most of my first week just listening so I can get a lay of the land and an idea of the office culture. It also help me that, as I was leaving for work one day, I asked someone on my team if she wanted to join me for lunch.

      As far as actual work goes, take lots of notes, ask questions when you’re confused, and be flexible. Know it’s going to be overwhelming at first, but you are qualified for the job and before too long you’ll be proficient.

  136. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I know a lot of us are bombed with the “recruiters” all over LinkedIn via messaging and such.

    Have you ever had someone actually go so far as to call your place of current employment to try to talk to you!? Recently someone from a known staffing agency actually tried this nonsense with us. They called our regular line and asked for me by name. The CSR did their whole “screen the call, who dis tho?” spiel and the dude was shady AF but finally coughed up that it was an agency. I take cold calls plenty because I’m bored and at least then the CSRs dont have to be that militant. I actually assumed they were going to ask about “our staffing needs” and was ready to say no, we’re all filled up but thanks for checking in…

    No. Dude. They started trying to tell me about positions they had open they thought of me for.

    That nerve of steel though. I laughed. My response to anything that’s over the top.

    Gumption on the prowl.

    1. Sleepless*

      That happened to me awhile back! I had just spruced up my LinkedIn profile so I guess they thought I was looking. It caused some mild raised eyebrows at my office, too. I had to assure them I wasn’t job hunting.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m so glad to hear this is a “thing” even if it’s a casual weird thing.

        I proceeded to tell everyone about it.

        They thought I was looking for a new job last year when they got an employment verification but it was only for my new lease. That was before they knew I’m so transparent that you can call me Casper.

    2. Lyudie*

      YES and no one seemed to understand why I felt it was so creepy. I asked how he got the number because I do not publicize it at all, and he said he saw my LinkedIn profile, called the general switchboard number for my company, and asked me and they transferred him. I was not looking and did not have the “open to recruiters” flag on my LinkedIn. I was rattled but told him clearly I already had a permanent position and was not interested in leaving (he asked me “Why??” like WTF dude I am happy where I am and it’s none of your business?)”.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I told everyone. And everyone was just as “WTF”, so I’m kind of interested in the fact that you work with people who aren’t at least semi sketched out.

        My boss did tell me I should have at least asked the pay scales they were going to be offering, LOL.

        1. Lyudie*

          I was really surprised no one thought it was super weird! Even my boss just rolled her eyes and said “eh don’t worry about it”. Maybe it’s my anxiety talking but having someone basically stalk me to try to get me into a job just creeps me out.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I’m sorry that you weren’t given the respect to your feelings you deserve!

            I honestly am not that upset by it but it’s because I’m used to telemarketing kind of nonsense, it all feels the same to me. But I can absolutely see why you got stalker vibes and those are valid fears to have.

            The folks you work with probably aren’t good with managing emotions or are pretty black and white kind of thinking. So they aren’t seeing it as a problem or the fact that it’s freaky to you. So they’re doing a brush off instead of actually agreeing that you personally have every right to not be okay with it.

          2. Environmental Compliance*

            This has happened to my husband a few times now – and some of his coworkers as well. I think it’s more common in some industries than others. I was weirded out, but he said it was pretty common for them. (Design engineering, fwiw)

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I think that’s what threw me for the loop.

              I know this happens in tech all the time. My friend just reached out to me about my area because they had a recruiter trying to get them to move here, LOL.

              We did have our marketing manager poached and that makes sense, those tend to come and go because fresh minds are great minds in a lot of senses in that kind of role. Accounting/Business management as a whole, not so much! It took me a year to fully grasp my roles in most situations. That’s a long training period, then to have someone leave within 2 years, yikes no thanks that’s frustrating on so many levels to everyone in the organization and a huge flag for most places filling those similar roles!

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      I’ve had a recruiter contact me by phone before–they got my direct line, which isn’t too hard if you look up my name on the website of the place where I work. Nothing shady–they said they had been engaged by [organization] to find candidates for an open position, and asked if I knew anyone who would be interested. I politely told them I wasn’t planning on leaving my employer any time soon, and no one I knew came to mind immediately. No problems there.

    4. Hydrangea*

      I’ve had this happen to me a few times. One thing sure to make them brief calls – unwillingness to share the salary of those roles.
      Sir you called me, if you can’t share that information why would I be interested?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        My background is such that if someone is trying to keep me on the phone, I’ll just hangup. So I don’t need to get them off the line by any means. But seriously, I don’t talk to anyone who won’t give a salary range, I’m not even remotely interested in anything you’re talking about without a price tag attached. I’m not cheap, bro.

    5. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      YES! Exact same thing happened to me a few weeks ago. I was astonished… and then mentioned it to my friend who is a recruiter. Turns out this is a thing recruiting agencies require their people do now. Crazy.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I assume this is because with Linkedin it’s easier than ever to find people to try this on. It doesn’t cost anything either, so they’re not even buying data lists. Just doing searches for leads.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          I remember this being part of my training when I first started off as an agency recruiter and I think it *can* work but you need to have another reason you called the person and you also need to be incredibly smooth on the phone. I had limited success with it if I was talking to a senior executive and I pitched a candidate and depending how that call I went I would give them a heads up on other things I was working on and I think maybe once or twice the candidate indicated they’d be interested in talking more about that specific role. So that’s two out of the thousands of business development calls I’ve made over the years lol. Between LinkedIn and all the other ways people can get your information I don’t see how the super cold recruiting call can be really effective unless you have some kind of unicorn job that would be highly enviable within that candidate’s vertical.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            And I can see it working in certain industries at for higher levels for sure.

            I know tech is notorious for recruiting already working folks, they move around all the time and job hopping is just life. The experience of being in different areas for even short stints can build up a great resume to show your chops!

            I think this is where it comes down to a seasoned recruiter who knows what they’re looking for. And then the ones who just try the spamming route. That feeling comes from working with them on a “I’m looking to hire someone, send me good candidates.” level. I always end up with people who maybe fit what we’re looking for…if you squint and if you’re in another universe where square pegs fit in circle holes.

    6. Gidget*

      “Gumption on the prowl” is winner of my favorite phrase coined in this week’s open thread. Sounds like an indie band. Or an overly pretentious entree.

    7. Coverage Associate*

      Yes, but it was my direct line and I work in an industry where it would be unusual for someone in my position not to have a private office.

  137. The Babiest Babyface*

    So, last week I posted about feeling super burnt out, but I have good news! I am no longer the president of the club I was worried about!!! It turns out half the officers were only part of it because they were being good friends to me, so we decided to just go inactive for now. Hooray for me, not having to feel bad about people cleaning up my mess!!!

    I talked to most of my professors about how much I’ve been dealing with, and everyone’s been really understanding about it. Even the dean knows what’s going on and has been talking to me about it. The perks of tiny liberal arts schools! Every day I feel more and more grateful that I came here as opposed to some giant school that I certainly would have dropped out of by now.

  138. Sleepless*

    My former workplace posted a staff contest on social media that’s supposed to be fun and interactive for the staff and for clients. The staff is arguing among themselves, on the social media account where clients can see it, about whether each other’s entries followed the rules or not in a “ha ha, kidding but not kidding” way. And here I was, wondering if I was imagining that company’s culture of pissy one-upmanship.

  139. Third or Nothing!*

    My husband and I are talking about having a second kid. I originally wanted to stay home full time once we had more than one kid, but I just don’t think I’m cut out for that life. I do want more time with my child(ren), though, so I’m toying with the idea of going part time and putting her (them, eventually) in a part-time program.

    AAM readers who have gone from full to part time for work/life balance reasons, how was your experience? What do you wish you had done differently or known before making the switch? Would you do it again?

    For informational purposes, I would lose some pretty good benefits but it is very cheap to go onto my husband’s insurance so healthcare is not a big factor.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is such a personal thing. I’ve had a lot of friends who tried the stay at home mom gig and it triggered their postpartum depression =( But I think the idea of doing part-time instead of “no-job” is a good transition so you can kind of test the waters on your own, instead of going all or nothing.

      My best friend did part time work for a long time when her kids were smaller, she loved it. It was a huge stress reliever that she was able to be around for doctors appointments and sick kids, instead of having to play the “who has the ability to stay home today?” dance with a spouse who may or may not have a great PTO/sick policy setup.

      The fact you have an insurance option to fall back on is critical! It will save you so much money on child care as well. So that way you aren’t just working to pay to have child care providers, which happens to a lot of folks.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        Our daughter is already on my husband’s insurance so we would just be adding me! Daycare around here is decently cheap but if I put another kid in daycare the total monthly cost would equal one of my paychecks.

        Doctor appointments and the like are a non-issue. Thankfully my company is super chill about flex time. And since my husband works the night shift I will always be the one to stay home with sick children. Right now that’s not a problem since I have 3 weeks of vacation and 1 week of PTO and I never get sick. Part-timers do not get PTO. That may be the deciding factor.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yuck, I’m not a fan of part timers getting no PTO. We give PTO no matter what, it’s just pro-rated for PT [if we were to have one, we do not because it’s not necessary in most cases!].

          What’s your option as far as going back to FT if you opt for PT for awhile? Do they let you kind of go between each one depending on the circumstances, I assume? Is it possible to do PT for awhile and then slide back into FT if you decide later that you’d rather be working?

          1. Third or Nothing!*

            It’s a small-ish company and they absolutely love me so they’d probably support the switch back, but I’m not sure if I’d come back to all my old benefits exactly as they are now or if they’d revert back to the basics. Which would be a lame thing to do, but sometimes companies do really lame things in the name of cost savings.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              The good news is that they love you and that goes a long way in this kind of setup.

              My mom is in that kind of boat. They bent over backwards to keep her when she exhausted her FMLA. So that’s huge but of course things can always change, so it’s good to keep in mind that it’s not a given by any means!

              But if you do stay on part time and they can’t bring you back full time, you have no real resume gap and can say “I went part time for awhile and now i’m ready to rejoin at full force!”, it really is rarely a mark against you in any decent hiring manager’s mind that you opted for PT for awhile, instead of you know, leaving the workforce all together. You’re not rusty by any means.

    2. Me*

      My suggestion is, since you are on the fence, after you have the child continue to work full-time and see how you feel. It’s likely easier to go down to a PT gig if you decide it’s what you really want vs going PT and realizing it’s doesn’t work for you.

      I will say daycare eating your paycheck is a red herring. A lot of people cite that as why they gave up their career. Problem is daycare costs are temporary and decrease as children age BUT the toll leaving the workforce takes on peoples careers is sometimes unrecoverable. Not really your situation as you still will be working, but I throw it out there just as a point for anyone else contemplating.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I definitely will work full time for at least a little while after having Hypothetical Second Child. Gotta get that maternity leave.

        Honestly I am not too worried about my career. I would not be sad in the slightest if I had to change careers. I’m bored as all get out but I stay because of the benefits.

        And who knows if I will ever even have to make that decision. Secondary infertility is a very real possibility for me. I mean, Baby #1 is totally a miracle baby.

        1. Me*

          I think….you don’t need any advice :) You sound like you have a firm grasp on what you want and are open to options. I think that’s always the most important thing really, when people are flexible.

          I hear you on the career boredom. I ended up where I am because of security and benefits, but it’s not my dream by any stretch. But there’s a pension and so I will stay until retirement and then go do what I want.

          Best of luck to you!

          1. Third or Nothing!*

            Thank you. Really I appreciate advice and hearing others’ experiences because I’m still new to being a mom and this was my first job out of college, so I don’t have a lot of experience in other work environments.

            I think my main concern is not taking everything into account when making the decision or having an idealized view of spending more time with my child(ren). Although! I have the whole week of Thanksgiving off and put in a request for vacation from daycare too (they won’t charge me that week! Heck yeah!), so I will have a small taste of SAHM life. Maybe it can be a mini test!

    3. Ranon*

      When thinking about part time, keep in mind that it doesn’t have to be, say, half time- I work an 80% week and love it. I’m able to keep up with projects with people who are working a 100% week but that extra day at home really makes a difference in work life balance, and it was great for my kiddo who was a terrible napper at daycare and really needed the extra day at home to get rested. The biggest trick is keeping to 80% instead of working, say, four 10s (although that works well for lots of people too). In terms of professional advancement I think my 80% is close enough to 100% that most of the time my boss still thinks of me as full time even though I’ve been working this schedule for 2.5 years now…

  140. Sliz*

    Fellow nonprofit marketing-communications/nonprofit people! I just started my first nonprofit marketing-communication job out of college and I’m dying to know what industry publications are worth reading. All the blogs and guides seem to be full of gimmicks, buzzwords, and self-promotion, and I don’t know what to trust. It’s like looking for job-searching advice before discovering Ask a Manager. Where’s the Ask a Manager of marketing-communications resources, basically?
    For context, I’m working mostly on social media, SEO/analytics, press, and general website stuff, with a bit of email and ads thrown in.

    1. Violalin*

      I don’t know about non-profit marketing & comms specific sites, but I adore NonProfitAF.com – very funny, very self-aware about non-profit gimmicks and buzzwords. More of a source for when you need a laugh or sanity check, not necessarily resources.

      I also really recommend NonProfitReady.org – great resources and self-directed training. I work in volunteer management, so have mostly searched for those but I imagine there’s good marketing and comms stuff too.

      Also TechSoup.org. My non-profit workplace has an account with TechSoup so we get a bunch of different technology resources, but I’ve found their newsletter, webinars and blog to be useful in the past.

      For general marketing comms and not non-profit specific…. I have no idea. Sorry! We have a subscription to Strategy Online, a marketing mag out of Canada and I enjoy reading that (but VERY buzzword heavy).

    2. zora*

      I’ve found some good resources but they tend to be specific by sector. There is some great stuff out there for arts marketing that I found just by googling. Same for advocacy communications. So, I’d drill down a little more in your sector/type of communications you do. Also look locally, there are some great local nonprofit listservs and networking groups, and those could connect you to other individuals in your area doing similar work. Like YNPN – Young Nonprofit Professionals Network has chapters all over.

    3. Green Post It Notes*

      I like PRSA for professional communications. A membership is definitely worth it for the industry content and the online forums where you can ask others.

      I dont know if you’re in the foundation world, but there is a communications group just for foundation communications folks called Comma.

    4. NeverNicky*

      I’m in the UK and my go to site is Charity Comms.

      Comms 2.0 is also good but more generalist.

      Hel Reynolds and Madeleine Sugden are great to follow on Twitter and both have email newsletters

  141. pope suburban*

    I work with someone who is very divide-and-conquer in her approach. I have heard her throw people under the bus a handful of times in the past couple of years, and nearly every instance was a situation in which fingers did not need to be pointed, and in which pointing said fingers was unprofessional and did not paint a flattering (or, I would argue, accurate) portrait of us as a unit/agency. Don’t know why she’s like this, don’t think it’s my concern, and I mostly keep out of it and maintain a cordial, superficially pleasant relationship with her.

    She’s also frequently absent to the point that it seriously impacts operations. I have, under the instruction of our supervisor, been handling some of her duties when she’s out. I always clear big decisions with him, and when she is in the office, I defer to her as the person whose job description specifies those tasks. I think I have done a decent job not stepping on her toes; I can’t just never touch her tasks, but I only do it at our boss’s request and I try to be clear with people that I am an interim/assistant. I’m sure that the absences aren’t fun for her and she may feel threatened/undermined (Our boss’s management style is not what I’d call tactful a lot of the time), but I recognize these are things I have limited or no control over, and shouldn’t speculate about a whole lot.

    The thing is, she just threw me under the bus over a class that a longtime, successful instructor set up with me during her absence, that was during an open time and cleared by our boss. She canceled this class- that would have had robust enrollment; this instructor is very popular and has a devoted student base- with no warning or discussion, in favor of a class that may or may not succeed (Related: classes of the latter type have historically not gotten enrollment here, and we are in a budgetary way that demands more classes available and more classes happening). I am not surprised by this, as my coworker has a history of sabotaging classes and programming driven by other people, but I’m upset that she damaged a relationship with an instructor that I have put a lot of effort into cultivating. I know my coworker’s style, and I can fairly imagine how she framed the issue (I didn’t ask my boss for specifics, but he heard her do it, so I 100% know it happened).

    I feel like I should reach out to this instructor, but I’m not sure that’s a good idea, or necessary. I think she was treated exceptionally poorly, and I hope that she doesn’t think I misled her or that I was in any way involved with the decision to cancel her class. But is this just one of those things I have to sit with? Unless/until it comes up organically in conversation with her, which it is not likely to do. I suspect it may be, but I wanted to at least ask so I can feel confident in my decision.

    1. fposte*

      I had a whole response worked out and then I realized you weren’t co-teaching the course. Oops.

      So what usually gets said to instructors if their courses are canceled? Would it be within that protocol to say “Thanks for preparing [Course], Jane, even though the curriculum went another way this semester; I hope we can work with you again in future”? I think there’s merit in the notion of closing a loop rather than just putting a bureaucratic “canceled” on the syllabus and letting that end the conversation, and that’s what I’d focus on rather than apologizing or defending or explaining.

      1. pope suburban*

        Usually it’s instructors who decide if courses are canceled. We’re not a school, we’re a facility that offers activity-based programming, so we’re not as formal as a college or school in that regard. Most of our instructors have a minimum number of students for the class to continue, and if that is not met within a week or two of the scheduled start date, we cancel the course. The awkward part here is that this instructor is still teaching other, long-running courses with us, and she was summarily informed of it in a dismissive e-mail, which is not really in line with how we treat our contractors here. It was in the follow-up meeting that came out of that e-mail that my coworker tried to blame it on me.

        The good news is that our boss, and *his* boss, both know the correct order of events, and insisted that we find the instructor a spot to teach that class at another facility. At this point, it’s been made right by the people with the authority, and I think that’s as much resolution as we can give. I appreciate the response; I suspected this was just going to be something that I had to let lie, even though it feels icky. According to another coworker who has been here much longer, this instructor has actually had similar problems with my rude coworker, so I’m feeling fairly confident that she’ll know that I didn’t sabotage her class or mislead her about anything. It’s not all rainbows and kittens, but it’s not the end of the world, either.

  142. LGT*

    Anyone else look at glassdoor type websites that list salaries for your job/experience/area and find that the numbers are wayyyyyy lower than you personally know to be true? I have a conspiracy theory about it…

    1. tape deck*

      I think most likely it’s just not very good/complete data which skews the results. I guess you could manipulate it deliberately but it seems like a very roundabout way of suppressing salaries.

    2. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      I do wonder how they come up with their ranges.
      I wonder about the age of the inputted data from those who have accounts with Glassdoor. Do they adjust figures given 5-10 years ago to make them relevant? Or do they leave them alone, thus making the salary ranges seem low?

      1. LGT*

        That’s a thought, that the old data is skewing the current market rates…

        I don’t know, but every time I look at these websites I’m horrified and torn between shouting from the rooftops what I make and burrowing into a hole and never leaving my current job (crappy but apparently well above-market-rate).

      2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        I think they’re skewed by similar titles that have vastly different meanings in different fields, ex: Program Manager of a nonprofit and Programming Manager in software engineering.

    3. Mazzy*

      I think many of them are outdated. And I entered one for my current job when I made $20K less and it seems awkward now to go back and edit it, mostly because that salary is still OK and I like the fact that the review is old, it makes it easier to hire, since most of the other reviews were put up recently.

  143. Me*

    Just need to vent so I don’t scream at work. Exboss is a know it all jerk who quite literally knows very little. He’s awful but especially so to me. I got pulled out from under him because I was miserable and looking for other jobs. Firing him would have been the correct answer, but you know.

    Anyhoozle, I do still need to deal with him periodically. Today, he sends an email to me and 2 others asking what some charges were in the printing account. I respond and say it’s the monthly copier rental plus the charge for the copies made that month.

    He ignores me. Of course. John, who works for him, responds listing out specific print jobs that he did. Exboss asks him if he used his pcard. John responds, no you just push the button on the copier to charge it to our budget.

    Exboss comes back from lunch stops in my door and says “It’s just the regular copier charges.”

    I looked at him and deadpan state “I know. That’s literally what I told you”.

    UUUUGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

      1. Alianora*

        Purchasing card, I’ve seen it used at many different universities. Quick google search turns up caltech, UCLA, davis, Arizona, and Stanford just on the first page.

      2. Me*

        Procurement card. It’s essentially a business credit card. It’s pretty common term – I work in government, but I’ve seen it used in corporate and education too.

      3. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Thanks for the info. I guess many Universities and other government operations run the same way!

  144. Rocket Sturgeon*

    Can anyone provide some advice on how to convert a transcript of a conversation into a more smoothly flowing narrative? Thanks in advance!

    2. LilySparrow*

      Is the final product to retain the appearance of a transcript with 2 speakers, just cleaned up? If so, just do a gramnar and copy edit like Alianora suggested.

      If you want to turn it into a single narrative, like an article or book chapter, then how aggressive are you willing to be in the editing/rewriting process?

      People in conversation ramble around and explore ideas as they speak, so the strongest expression of their idea tends to come at the end of a statement. With a written narrative, that would be considered “burying the lede,” which makes a piece boring and hard to follow.

      A narrative is stronger when it has a clear thesis up front, then develops and supports it, then draws a conclusion. So turning a transcript into a really polished piece requires a lot of restructuring.

      If that’s more than you are going for, then focus on ways to blend the two speakers together so it’s one voice addressing the reader – take out phrases where they agree or disagree directly with each other, and recast them as things like “furthermore” or “on the other hand.”

  145. Tedious Cat*

    Everyone in my department has had a lousy week because we had to switch to a new software that, frankly, sucks. My grandboss even very professionally admitted that it was simply the least-bad option.

    This morning grandboss brought us all gifts: pens with the name of the lousy software next to a big red heart.

    We just looked at each other and started howling. I was laughing too hard to even make a bribe joke.

    In a case of perfect symmetry, the pen sucks too.

  146. anon1*

    My work bff & I are both up for a promotion, and it’s starting to get uncomfortable. Based on conversations with my supervisor, I’m fairly confident it’s going my way. My supervisor has a huge hand in the decision making, seniority within the company, and is ready to go to bat for me. Like I truly think they would raise hell if I didn’t get promoted. However, nothing is guaranteed, and I’m not putting all my eggs in one basket.

    With my work bff, there’s always been a slight underlying tension of “there can only be one” in our relationship, but it’s reaching a boiling point. At least twice a week she asks if I’ve heard anything, I’ll tell her if I hear something right, how am I being so calm, etc. We don’t have a timeline for when the decision will be made (annoying but not management’s fault – external industry circumstances), but I imagine it’ll be in the next two months. I’ve been with the company for 3 years and would love to keep growing here, but I’m prepared to move on if needed. At the end of the day, I’ll be okay. I do not think work bff will be okay. She has way more riding on this mentally & emotionally than I do.

    I’ve encouraged her to advocate for herself – talk to her boss, talk to the dept heads, and just keep on doing awesome work. I think she’s a great employee, and they really should find a way to keep us both. She recently asked me if I would link arms with her – whoever gets the job will only take it if they sweeten the pot for the other. I…do not want to do this. For a variety of reasons, the biggest one being that I don’t think it will be effective. I feel selfish for not wanting to do this, but I really don’t. When she brought it up, I deflected, but I know it’s not the last I’m going to hear about it. Is there a kind way to say “Let’s put a pause on all of the promotion talk. It’s taking up too much headspace. We don’t know when decisions will be made, and we shouldn’t drive ourselves bananas in the meantime?”

    1. fposte*

      I think the script you have right there is great. I don’t know that any script will do what you want, which is to solve her anxiety about this and make her okay with the outcome. If she pushes on the “whoever gets up brings the other too” thing I think it’s okay to answer that one a little more deeply: “You know, if I don’t get the job I want to be treated appropriately to the position I have; I really don’t want extra favoritism or pushing, because I think that ends up being bad for everybody. I’d want you to respect my accomplishments and achievements and advocate the way you would for anybody with these skills in this position, and that’s what I promise to do for you.”

      1. valentine*

        You have the perfect script, though it does mean not discussing it with other coworkers, so they don’t tell her what you said and there are no accusations that you’re being secretive. If she brings up the (juvenile) linking again, tell her whoever gets the role (you may want to mention it could be a third party, even if you think there’s no way) will have to do what’s best for the business and not play favorites.

        I think you’re taking on her worry and are too concerned about how she’ll fare. This is a good time to dial back the friendship, in part because it seems lopsided in her favor, but mostly because you don’t really have a friendship if she thinks there’s not enough room in this town for the both of you.

    2. CatCat*

      I think what you’ve come up with is great.

      Also, don’t feel selfish for not wanting to go along with her weird idea. The ask from her is unreasonable.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      I might tell her, “I wouldn’t feel comfortable if you were offered the position but felt like you couldn’t take it if the company refused to do anything for me, and I think you’d probably feel bad if I were put in that position too–let’s not make that kind of promise! ” And I think adding your bit about putting a pause on the promotion talk would be just right.

      FWIW, I sympathize–this is a situation I was recently afraid might happen, where I thought a colleague I really like and I might be going for the same position and the person who got it would end up managing the person who didn’t. That person ended up not being interested in it, though, and I was relieved. They’re an awesome colleague, and frankly, I would be happy enough having them as my boss–or as my report–and I like to think they feel the same about me, but it still would have been super awkward.

  147. Mango Sherbet*

    Any tips on how to deal with anxiety when things go wrong and you’re being watched by your boss?

    It’s been 6 weeks since I started my new role in a new field and I’m surrounded by older employees who have worked for the company for at least 5+ years. We use different systems to process documents and I’m still learning but try to ask the right questions and take notes. The systems allow us to keep track of who is currently working on or has already processed a document.

    The issue is that when something out of the norm happens (files are missing, client forgot vital info, etc), I try my best and struggle to fix it without bothering my direct supervisor (our team only has 3 people and one of them is the director). But this process takes a good chunk of time to fix (around 15-20 minutes) since I’m inexperienced and trying to use my notes. And then I get a ton of anxiety because my boss will loudly ask me why I haven’t processed the other documents yet and seems angry when I tell her that I’m working on fixing ABC right now and that it’ll only take a few more minutes. We have low-rise cubicles and she sits right behind me but we’re surrounded by other people in different departments. So now I’m internally screaming and trying to fix things ASAP… which has been not the greatest on my mental health.

    I’ve tried in the past to ask for help if I was truly lost but my boss is swamped with other work as well and me asking more questions seem to be very annoying to her.

    So… any tips? Other than sucking it up haha. I’m hoping that this will be less of an issue once I’m in this role for a longer time.

    1. Jamie*

      Your boss sucks, I’m sorry. This has to be so stressful for you. All I can advise is to breathe through it and remind yourself you’re still learning and doing the best you can. Be kind to yourself.

    2. Me*

      You need to have a conversation with your boss outside of these moments. You should sit down with your boss and explain (remind and she really should know) that you are still learning and sometimes it takes you longer than you would like to resolve things as you have to reference your notes so your learn versus interrupting someone else’s work to ask for help. Ask her if she’d prefer you interrupt her. If yes, then do it. If no, then tell her when she pushes you in those moments it actually makes it take longer for you to resolve. Perhaps ask here if she has concerns about your performance so far that you can address.

      But yeah, you don’t need coping mechanisms, you need a conversation.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your anxiety may be part of the reason why she sounds so annoyed. It can amplify even a slight “edge” to someone’s voice when really, that’s just them speaking normally. They’re not truly annoyed with you asking questions, it just feels like a ton of bricks on your chest when you speak to them and their eyes may just flick one direction to check on that fly they saw out of the corner and you think that they’re rolling their eyes and sighing at you.

      I say this because I am the same way. I get really anxious and think people are mad or annoyed, when really, they’re not. The way I’ve worked around it is to first talk to them and square away if they are indeed flustered when you’re asking questions.

      In a moment aside from this, ask to discuss your performance so far to make sure that you’re both on the same page and to have a 1:1 kind of set up. Tell her that you’ve been trying and seem to feel like you’re failing in some aspects due to the things you’re saying here. Say you’re a little tentative about asking questions because you don’t want to bother her and frustrate her. And see where she goes.

      A reasonable person understands that 6 weeks in a role is very short. You shouldn’t know the system completely within 6 weeks! It’s absurd to expect you to not have questions about things that pop up that aren’t routine, like if something is missing etc.

      Tell her that your first step is to always try to figure it out yourself but sometimes it leads you to fumbling for much longer and therefore, not getting everything done in the timely fashion you know is necessary for the team. Maybe she’d rather field questions as they come up instead of you struggling. In these special cases, things that you don’t have complete notes about, i’d rather you just ask and not fumble and try like that!

      I have RBF and can have a tone to my voice that I’m careful with but when I’m rushed or pulled out of deep thought suddenly, etc. I can come across as annoyed, I only recently was told this [by a total jackhole but whatever, at least he said something and therefore I could finally adjust when necessary]. So she could be the same.

      Really, I think that some of it may be misunderstanding. Since I hope it is, otherwise your boss is a jerk and I hate her and wish I could lecture her about how much she sucks for you. You know, without saying who told me she sucks ;)

  148. Mary Anne Spier*

    I have three coworkers who have a little group text between them. The three of them text each other and laugh in front of everyone else. They like to reference it frequently. “Did you see the thing that… yeah, did you know what she meant? She meant the time that… Yup, that’s what it was!” It’s very middle school and exclusionary, not to mention distracting.

    Just had to get that out.

    1. Anonymouse for this*

      Yuck – sounds like the toxic trio I had to share an office with when I started a new job. They would spend the day IM’ing each other – and then look over at each other and start laughing about whatever gems they’d just sent. Made me feel more than a little paranoid that they were talking about me. Luckily was able to use headphones to drown them out.

  149. Environmental Compliance*

    Well, things with Problem Operator came to a head. Following several refusals to follow basic SOPs and combative/aggressive behavior, I finally went to HR and asked for guidance, forwarding all emails where PO was aggressive, noting that PO had attempted to physically intimidate (cornering me at my desk & raising voice to the point where another staff member came to remove PO), and also forwarding my repeated requests for assistance from my management.

    HR was Not Pleased, and told me they were investigating. I heard nothing back until PO’s direct manager (same level as me, had been blocked from doing anything prior by our management) called me to ask for details so that the termination letter could be written. HR had decreed that PO was terminated effective immediately.

    I’m not sure how I feel about this, because a good part of me feels that Management failed both PO & I, because there were *no* enforced consequences whatsoever. Upper Management blocked any action. Writing PO up for repeated no calls no shows & over hour lateness (for a job that needs coverage) was barely allowed. The problems should have been addressed several years ago and should never have been allowed to escalate.

    I’m also pretty anxious now about Upper Management come Monday (when UM returns back to work) and what sort of blowback may or may not happen.

    1. Jamie*

      They failed you, and they are shitty management for sure. And if the offenses were more minor I’d agree they failed him, but no one should have to tell an adult that cornering another person and raising their voice to an alarming degree isn’t okay. That his behavior rose to a threatening level I think the only way management failed was in not firing him when this first became an issue.

    2. Kathenus*

      Agree with everything Jamie said. I’ve followed your posts on this, and this person dug their own hole and is just lucky that they got away with it as long as they did. Repeated non-compliance, not following SOP’s, intimidation – they deserve to be fired. To be sure upper management handled this terribly, but I’d have no guilt whatsoever about PO getting terminated, they got an undeserved reprieve for too long already.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, PO definitely dug their own hole. I can’t decide if I’m more frustrated about the whole thing or relieved that at least that part has been addressed.

        Obviously UM still needs work. It’ll be interesting to see what happens in the meeting that I see has been scheduled for Monday in regards to this. I’m curious to see if HR crawled up UM’s bum as far as I’m thinking they did. HR rep was very not pleased and acted incredibly quickly and decisively – which has been a nice change, honestly. But HR shouldn’t have been the ones to drop the axe, it really should have come from UM, and HR was not impressed with the timeline of this. They first thought it was a recent thing, like a week or so old, not several months. And that they barely had any conversations with me is interesting too (we spoke over the phone for 5 minutes, if that) – it almost feels like there were other things that had been flagged previously for them to have moved so fast. Prior firings I’ve had to submit documentation for took at least a day – we had an operator falsify data with camera evidence that showed multiple events once investigated, and that person was gone in about 48 hours. This time it seemed like it took 3.

        1. LilySparrow*

          Sometimes that kind of timeline difference isn’t about perceived urgency, but about the availability of the authorizing person to be told and sign off on stuff.

          You coukd have everyone in the chain agree that it needs to happen immediately, but if it takes a couple hours or overnight for all the messages to get read, it’s not unusual for “immediately” to take 2 days.

          Whereas if everyone is in the office and out of meetings, it flows unhindered.

  150. AdminX2*

    There was a note recently about not dismissing going to school if you’ll be out by 40 which I agree. But what about just starting knowing you’ll end up in your 50s? Starting from scratch, no degree, and wanting to go all the way through masters.

    2. fposte*

      It depends. Can you do it without taking on debt? Is there a professional master’s you’re aiming at that’s driving this whole show, or is it really about getting the bachelor’s and you’re considering a master’s as well?

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Regardless of the ages involved, the time is gonna pass with or without school. I’m still on team “If it makes you happy and you can work out the logistics, go for it, age is just a number.”

      1. Natalie*

        Yep, you’re (hopefully) going to end up mid-50s at some point no matter what you do. So why not do this?

    5. Filosofickle*

      My SO is in school now, he’ll finish at 50. Worth it for him! This is the calling he had always ignored. With at least twenty plus years of work left but no career to speak of (just random jobs), that’s a long time to stay miserable. But he’s able to do it for basically free, so it’s a no brainer IMO. Still, he seriously questioned if he was too old. I’m beyond glad he didn’t listen to that voice. My grandmother got her PhD in her 50s, and worked for another 20 years. A woman in my MBA program started at age 60.

      There are, of course, some major considerations.

      The first is what everyone else is noting, the financial situation. Cost of the education, how you’ll pay, and what you’ll earn later to make up for the lost time, savings, and/or debt.

      Second, what have you done or what can you do to be sure of this path? Informational interviews, shadowing, etc can help you really, truly understand what it looks like in action. Make sure this is right for you. And also that a degree is truly necessary to make the transition to what you want to do.

      Lastly, I’d be sure there is a career path at the end of the rainbow. That doesn’t mean the program has to be vocational/professional in nature, just that there should be a clear idea of how the course of study can be applied and that jobs for those skills exist. (That said, it’s fine to get an education for the sake of it if you can afford it or have low financial needs. I know a dental office manager who got a history master’s just for fun.)

  151. Hush42*

    I have an employee on my team of 5 who I did an annual review with today. This employee is good at her job and got a positive review. Then she asked for a $5 per hour raise (a 23% increase). She says that she feels that its what she’s worth and that she based it on data she found online for our area. The problem is that she has a very generic job title that is used in multiple, very different, industries. We are part of an industry group that track industry averages for positions in the company. She is already above the industry average and giving her a $5/hr raise would be far outside the average. To make it worse- she already makes $5 per hour more than the lowest paid person on my team (this is for a couple of reasons but will be rectified soon- the lowest paid person is getting a raise to be more in line with the other 4 but still will be a couple of dollars below the employee who asked for a raise). Giving her the raise she’s asking for would actually mean that she makes the same amount as I do. I don’t want her to leave but she’s asking for far more than the position is worth. When I told her that she is already at the top of her pay band she stated that she would be fine with a title change if that is what is required… which is not really the issue. We’re not that kind of company- her current role doesn’t allow for the pay rate she’s asking for. She wants us to create a new position for her as a manager. But that role doesn’t currently exist and while it MIGHT exist sometime in the next few years I would guess that it’s going to take at least another year more likely two or three before we’re at the point where we can justify that position and I didn’t get the impression that she’s willing to wait that long.

    I am very out of my depth here- I’ve only been in a management role for a few years. I don’t know how to handle this. My instincts are telling me that I’m mostly likely going to have to tell her that I can’t meet her raise request and that, while I hope she chooses to stay, I’ll understand if she moves on and will give her a positive reference. I really don’t know what else I can do?

    1. Me*

      Can you offer her any raise like a cost of living?

      But yeah, if she’s maxed out, then she’s maxed out.

      1. Hush42*

        I could offer her a small raise, like 3-5% but not anywhere close to the 23% she’s requesting. She recently broke up with her BF and is moving into her own apartment so my boss and I talked about giving her a ~$1,000 bonus to help her with moving costs because we can’t give her much of a raise but then she requested the 23% raise and I was a little thrown off because I wasn’t expecting her to ask for that much so I forgot to even offer it to her.

        1. Me*

          Offer her what you can. If it’s a bonus, then it should be as a reflection of her work vs because of a personal circumstance.

          Decide what you can offer, meet with her about it and finish with the rest of the script you gave.

        2. Kiwiii*

          I think cluing her into the reasons and options she has is probably the kindest way you can communicate the situation to her. If you can increase her a little (or even a bit more than a little if she’s just near the top of her band and not actually bumping the top), try and do that if you want to do that to retain her. If there’s a way for you to create or move her into a position that would pay closer to what she’s looking for, be candid about how long that would take and what things she’ll need to achieve in that time for a move like that to happen.

          1. Hush42*

            We don’t have official pay bands, but if we did she’d be over the top. She’s at the point where my boss has pointed out that, even with the extra costs of hiring a new person, we’re nearing the point where it would actually save the company money to replace her. Which feels icky to say- I WANT to keep all my employees because they’re all awesome but I also can’t justify paying her so much more than the industry average.
            You are right that I just need to have a frank conversation with her. Unfortunately, our industry simply isn’t an extremely high paying one. We base our pay ranges on industry averages so our pay is comparable to other companies in the same industry. She would likely be able to make more in a different industry.

            1. Kiwiii*

              I don’t know how long she’s worked for your company/in her role, but if she’s been there at Least 2 years (which I would assume since she’s making so much more than her peers), pushing for advancement and/or moving to another company to leverage her skills might be the thing to do. Just make sure you frame it as wanting to help her (and then do follow through in helping her do that, by allowing trainings, resources, and experiences that might help in her job search, and/or providing flexibility).

        3. WellRed*

          Please don’t offer bonuses based on what’s going on in her personal life. That’s a slippery slope.

          1. Hush42*

            My comment was REALLY unclear sorry!- I have ~$1000 in my budget for the year I could give her- which works out to about a 3% raise for the year. Since she has a lot of expenses from moving my boss suggested giving her the $1000 in the form of a bonus now rather than in the form of a small raise which would net her the same amount of money at the end of the year but spread out over 12 months. The amount of money wouldn’t be based on her personal life- but the form and timing of when she gets said money would be.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is pretty normal. People ask for some astronomical pay increases and in general, having been in salary negotiations with new-hires, it happens there as well. One guy applied to a job for 60k a year and then when we called and asked about his salary expectations/requirements he was like “Oh I’m looking for 120k, I dont’ have any room to negotiate that.” So we pulled the plug and ejected immediately.

      We’ve had employees ask for what your employee is doing. What you do is explain it’s not possible. Offer her the highest amount you can. Say it’s 5% that you mention. It’s really a “This is what we can offer.” and that’s it. It’s then on her shoulders to leave or not.

      She’s a good employee and you understand that, that’s the important part. But in reality, she cannot be allowed to extort or hold you over a barrel with the fear she’ll leave.

      She thinks she’s worth that? Let her go try her hand at getting a job at that level. It’s possible, it’s great if she can find it but it’s not something that you as a manager, with a budget and a payscale can really stress so much out about. Just do the best you can. If it’s not good enough, we don’t always see eye to eye with our employees.

      We also are sometimes the “bad guy”, this is why management tends to be growled about. “My manager doens’t know how much I’m worth, rawr!” It’s not personal. It’s business. It’s not personal. It’s business. Remind yourself of that. Do your best, do all you can but you can’t build a spaceship and fly to the moon just because she asked you to either.

      1. Kiwiii*

        There’s always a couple like that, it seems. When they were hiring for my job, NewJob got a couple applicants asking for like $85k when the posted range was $40-45k.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yep, I swear it’s just a characteristic in some folks.

          They don’t understand how pricing works. They don’t realize that a job is only worth how much the person who has the job to offer is willing and able to pay you for it.

          My dad is bad at this and the concept of supply and demand. He constantly complains that I’m not making enough [I’m making above market value in most instances]. I was stoked at my annual bonus the other year and his response was “that’s great and all but you should have gotten 10k instead!!!” kind of thing.

      2. Hush42*

        This is what I needed to hear I think. I’ve been lucky over the past few years with having great employees so I’ve yet to really have to be the “bad guy” there have been a few small incidents that were easily handled but for the most part it’s been fine. I’m definitely struggling with having to be the bad guy even though I knew it was going to happen when I took the position.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Here’s what I’m seeing:
      -you have an employee that’s good, but not great.
      -this employee has an overblown expectation of her worth.
      -when told the raise was bonkers she just implied that changing her title, but not her job, would be okay.
      -when given further information she just assumes that a management position can be created out of thin air.
      What I think you need to do:
      -offer her a fair raise, and offer it up as a take it or leave it
      -Tell her that the only advancement opportunity at this point in time will take 2-3 to fully develop.
      -If she wants stick around and make herself the ideal candidate for that position, that starts with being more tuned into her specific industry.
      -Show her that’s she’s actually being highly compensated for her position and industry. Share the reports, she’s getting bad information from some where.
      -Also tell her that if she’s not happy with the compensation/company you support her trying to grow her career outside of the company.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        “-If she wants stick around and make herself the ideal candidate for that position, that starts with being more tuned into her specific industry.”

        ^This. She may be a great employee, but that doesn’t mean the business she’s in can pay some other industry’s rates for that generic position. She seems to be trying to compare apples and mangoes in her pitch for a raise, which is not a good look for said pitch.

        And then…

        “-when given further information she just assumes that a management position can be created out of thin air.”

        Even more this! Listen, she may be great… but a business can’t really create positions out of nothing. You can do as much as you reasonably can to keep her, but if her expectations are sky high compared to what you can reasonable offer her, there’s not a lot you can do. If her pay is reasonable – high for her position in this industry – well, reasonably, you can’t just magic a position in for her, and you can’t reasonably bump her up that much in pay. That is a reasonable business stance. I would love for my boss to randomly decide to bump up my pay by 20%, but I know that’s not reasonable for the industry or company. If that is something I seriously expected, I would have to take my skills elsewhere. If she is very set on making that pay level, it’s reasonable on both sides for your company to decline (for the reasons given) and for her to start looking elsewhere. Maybe she’ll find that Awesome Job. Maybe she won’t. But IMO all you can do is be frank with her & if you can fit in a smaller raise, go for it if her performance merits.

  152. ainnnymouse*

    How can I make potential employers I can’t work nights? I check off the boxes on the applications I can’t. Then they read it and keep asking me to come into interviews. When I come in they tell me it’s for night shifts. Then get mad when I tell them I can’t work those hours. Is there any way I can convey this more clearly to these potential employers?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      These people are clearly not reading the applications or just living on a different planet. Sadly you can’t reason with the unreasonable. So you are doing everything right, screw anyone who gets mad at you. THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT, they just suck.

  153. Marmaduke*

    My husband’s new (<6 months) workplace talks a lot about work-life balance being one of their core values. He got a lot of sideways glances at work last month when I was hospitalized for pancreatitis and he didn’t take any time off. He hadn’t accumulated enough PTO and we needed his pay to cover the medical bills we knew would be tolling in, but from the outside I think it looked like he was a workaholic neglecting his family to focus on work.

    In a couple of weeks, I’m getting my gallbladder out. I’m nervous, but I know it’s a fairly routine procedure. My husband had to come in an hour late the day we went to the surgical consult, and he let his team know where he would be. Now they keep asking him how much time he’ll need off for the surgery and recovery.

    He only has three weeks of PTO/sick time, and we need to save at least a few of those for weather emergencies and for Christmas (he’s essential staff, so any holiday he takes off costs PTO). My parents are flying out to help with transportation and childcare during the surgery, so that my husband won’t need to take time off. We’re saving his PTO for later, when I’m feeling better and we can actually enjoy one another’s company. But he and I are both worried about how this will affect his perception at work. Does he need to take off the day of surgery, for optics? Is it better to explain our decision or just reassure them that everything is under control?

    1. DC*

      He can just say “Her parents will be in town to help out! I’m lucky to have supportive in-laws.”

    2. OtterB*

      I don’t think he needs to do anything just for optics. Think about what you really want in the way of support. Setting aside the office issues, do you want him at the hospital the day of surgery to wait with you until they call you back and be with you after you wake up in recovery? Or would you honestly rather he go to work and have the time for later? He doesn’t need to go into detail, but I think he could tell his office that your parents are coming into town around the surgery and that since you have help on hand, he’s saving his PTO for holiday family time (nice keyword) and future health needs.

      Wishing you well with your surgery. I had my gallbladder out years ago and hope yours goes as smoothly as mine did.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I only let my breath out once I saw your parents are coming out to help out. I couldn’t move for three days after my gallbladder removal. The idea of someone being left alone for 8+ hours a day in that state was getting me anxious.

      It’s pretty ballsy that they think that their “core values” are work/life but they don’t offer enough PTO/Sick leave to allow for it. That’s them falling short right on their faces. Most people cannot simply afford to just take unpaid time off and structure their leave for their own personal benefit overall.

      I agree, he should just mention that he doesn’t need to take time off because your parents are coming out to assist with everything so it’s all handled.

      Honestly, this stinks but they’re going to think what they’re going to think.

      He could try “It’s all taken care of, we’ve spoken as a couple and figured it all out.” Like this is really none of their GD business. I wish he was more lowkey about why he needed to be in an hour late or with your medical conditions in general, they don’t need to know a thing about what’s going on personally. If he needs time off for “an appointment” or “Family thing” then that’s what it is. They’re meddlesome…

      1. SomebodyElse*

        3 weeks is pretty standard for PTO, isn’t it? Especially for an employee in their first year with a company.

        To the original question, I think it’s fine if he answers something like… “oh yeah, there’s a lot going on, but we have some plans around the holidays that I’m saving my PTO for. If I needed to, I’d take the time off, but it’s covered”

        His boss may ask about it but I wouldn’t worry about it.

        One thing that’s worth mentioning for the future… it’s worth checking if the company will allow a person to ‘go in the hole’ if they haven’t accrued enough PTO to cover something like an illness or a hospitalization. It’s pretty common for employers to allow a certain number of days/hours to be used that haven’t been accrued yet.

      2. Marmaduke*

        With a one-year-old in the house, I knew I’d have to have somebody stay with me for a while. I couldn’t bear the thought of something happening to her if I were to pass out while we were alone together.

        While I wish my husband had been a lot more discreet, I understand it—honesty was a big part of his rehab program years ago, and being as honest as possible is, for him, a part of staying in remission. We’re working on it.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          That’s fair and his recovery is much more important. So in this instance I really double down on the fact that in the end, it’s none of their business how he manages his PTO and family obligations! They need to butt-out.

          You won’t be able to pick up your kiddo afterwards either and you won’t be alert, I promise you. They just use a robot to go in and snip the little bugger out of there but those minor cuts they make and the stress on your abdomen is real stress on your core muscles. I couldn’t sit up without extreme difficulty for those first few days, let alone ever care for even an adult, let alone a baby! I woke up screaming when my pain meds wore off and my mom had to sprint across the house in the middle of the night, I was pretty much stuck in my position until she got me meds and the pain subsided enough.

          It’s really not a bad recovery at all but it’s one of those things you cannot have any responsibilities involved while healing those few days!

      1. Goldfinch*

        Yup, he needs to generally take a step back with the level of personal info his colleagues know, because this is clearly A Thing.

        1. Lilith*

          Is it lap surgery? If so, you should be “fine” with your parents. It’s a pretty easy surgery & recovery especially since you have them there lifting . Surgery in the morning, home a few hours later.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      He should tell them your parents are there to man the fort, and that he would go crazy at home waiting – he’d rather keep busy to keep from obsessing over it, and that he appreciates how kind his colleagues are to be concerned. (One of my employees used that with me, so I know it works!)

  154. DC*

    I’m really really late, but maybe other late-comers will be this.

    I’ve posted the last two weeks about my micromanaging boss, and the hell that my current job is. As well as asking about how folks handled leaving a job off their resume.

    I’ve had one interview, and put out a lot of job applications, and am hoping to get something fast. In the meantime, I’m going to leave without anything else lined up, for the sake of my sanity.

    My question is, how have y’all handled these conversations with folks who you know well? Who know why you left the last job, and how excited you were for the new one?

    1. NeonDreams*

      Do you mean people you know well at work or in general? I’m in a similar situation. I’ve told a few people I like at Current Company I’m looking elsewhere. But I’ve only done so if I’m confident they won’t go blabbing about my plans. My boss and higher ups know I’m aiming to leave long term. (They aren’t the reason I want to leave; its the department I’m constantly thrown into with little to no warning. With inconsistent help and a whole lot of bureaucracy.)

  155. Gumby*

    People here had good things to say about FlexJobs earlier this week. Is it a decent resource for people who do not have a college degree? I know someone who is very smart and accomplished – has run her own business, excellent planner, very organized, etc. but didn’t do the college thing. She’s having trouble finding a job (well, one that will pay more than In-n-Out). I’m completely willing to sponsor her a membership for FlexJobs but don’t want to steer her that way if it is a sea of degree-required jobs.

  156. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

    On the sidelines watching a developing situation possibly unfold over office space. People are gonna start having to share…. I need popcorn….

  157. Lost in the Woods*

    Brief rant:
    Who in the hell thought it would be a good idea to make drop down menus for exam findings in electronic medical records? There are literally hundreds of items on these menus, so they are functionally unusable, and they don’t have any of the common abbreviations used in the specialty I work in, so they’re even more useless. I just have to sit there and hit escape twice every time I click on a bar to note an exam finding, and I can’t reliably copy and paste between bars since when you click the stupid menu pops up and you can’t see what you’re pasting! It’s minor thing but intensely aggravating when it impacts by ability to do my job efficiently, which is every single patient. And I know that it would be pretty easy to build in a way to turn it off, but either no one at my practice has figured it out in the 8+ years they’ve been using this record system, or there actually isn’t a way to do it. It’s ridiculous.

    1. Just Elle*

      UGH YES. We have the same thing for cause codes for part nonconformances. Its the worst because like, 1/100th of the list actually applies to your department. But they don’t even have some kind of filter tree option, you just have to scroll. So now everyone just selects ‘other’ and the data is useless. (PS there is NO WAY its other because there are literally 300+ items on the list).

      Have you tried just calling the record system and talking to their customer service? At least getting them to add in the abbreviations you want?

      1. Lost in the Woods*

        It’s amazing how giving people too many options means that everyone freezes and ignores the options. (We all just freetype the findings after hitting escape between 2-8 times). The hard thing is that all of our doctors prefer slightly different verbiage. It would be great if, as a practice, each person could build a drop down menu for the doctors they work with. Like if I logged an and selected Dr. A then a specific list would pop up, and a different one under Dr. B. Then the menu would actually be useful.

        Alas, I am only a tech and I’m only planning on being around for another year and a half (fingers crossed for successful applications to medical school). I wonder though if all the techs could run it up the flagpole to the practice manager, since it is super annoying and it does impact efficiency.

        1. Just Elle*

          Honeslty sometimes these things are remarkably simple if only someone would DO SOMETHING about it. For all you know it could be literally a 10 minutes call to the company and they’d tell you some magical button to press. I’ve actually gotten a few promotions by just handling things and then saying “hey, I talked to x, we have a solution y, do you mind if I give them the go ahead?” And everyone is like zomg we have this huge issue it didn’t even occur to us could be solved and then just-the-intern solved it. Just saying. Lol. But also totally understand if it’s not worth the effort given the shorter time frame.

    2. nat*

      In our system we can create our own templates for certain types of notes…which means you would be able to remove the dropdowns entirely. But our organization also isn’t using this data for any actual purpose, so it’s not as big of a deal as it might be if someone were trying to analyze the (garbage) data. EMR can really be awful for stress/efficiency, so I feel you.

    3. ArtK*

      This is a problem in a lot of web systems. Sadly, this may not be something that can be easily turned off. I happen to work in EHR and a better design is to allow you to start typing and it will narrow down the choices as you go.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      And this is why I get electronic orders for lab testing with a diagnosis of R69: “illness, unspecified.”

      (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

  158. Rexish*

    We have a new manager in my team.. When she came I immediately noticed that she is a (over)sharer and quite loud. Now that she has setteld in I have zero trust her. She hasn’t really broken any confidentiality but shares things we don’t need to know. I know way too much about our future employee. She also talks about people so that you recognizes them. She said how she is testing one collague who has interim position but this has not been shared with the employee. I wouldn’t be suprised if she shared confidential information.

    She gives these snippets of inormation but doesn’t actually tell. As an example, one of the other teams has a bit of an issue. She comes back and tells “wow. that was intense. I don’t want to go into it but the cat is out of the bag”. Then in out meeting “there is something I have requested to do for you guys. But I don’t know if it will go though. I’ll get back to it in january”. She prides herself as being very honest and not creating drama or confusion.

    My main issue is that she is innapropriate. I’ve heared her tell the same taking a shit in public story twice. She shares if she had diarrhea in the evening. She made a joke about a terrorist attack (when it was the anniverssary of something happening in our city). She has more than once said how one of my colleagues remind her of her son. She gave a colleague the basic advice “imagine the audience naked” but then continued “well, they are mostly women so if you are into men then it might not work. but you can imagine them being men but be careful about not being turned on. haha”. In the same meeting she shared about our internal business that most certainly did not benefit the look we want to potray.

    I once pointed out how an employee was being innapropriate and unprofessional (her manger said smething about chnagin office lay out. She swore several time loudly, got out of the room and yelled how her entire weekend is ruined). . My manager thinks that I’m very sensitive to what is considered inapropriate. So basically she thinks she is appropriate. She also wants to have a what’s app group where we can post funny memes. She already warned that he shouldn’t be easily offended for the memes she will send.

    She thinks her personality is fantstic and that she is exactly what our department needs. She wants to shake thinks up and think any pushback is because we are too set in our ways. The bad thing is that the most senior (and loudest) employees think she is fantastic and vocally praise her. She has worked for the company before and some of our collegues in ther department called and asked if she was back then said “well…this will be interesting”.

    I’m not easily offended and I can shake all of this off. I have a sense of humour. But this is just too much for me at work. I don’t mind having a casual atmosphere and joking around. But I just feel like we are on a different page and I cannot trust her. It’s frustrating.

  159. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from Not the Hellmouth! I was going to tell some fun stories about mean rich people, nasty notes from residents left on my car,, and other property management fun–but instead I offer forth a tale of an escalation in The Amazon War.

    So, (with the exception of one dude who is pretty cool) the Amazon package delivery people hate us. They hate our property. They hate delivering packages to the doors. They will often come into the office and try to force us to take the (usually 25+) packages that they are supposed to deliver, and have had actual, literal, complete meltdown temper tantrums when we explain that we can not take them. They try to demand that we let them use our fancy golf cart. They crumple up the maps we give them and toss them before storming out. It has been a Thing.

    So today we had a resident come in three times looking for a package that said it was delivered to “the mail room” according to Amazon tracking. The third time my manager was finally available to help, and asked her what the time stamp on her delivery notification was so he could check the cameras for the mail room and the surrounding areas by the office. He goes to pull them up only to discover footage of a chick with a few armfuls of Amazon packages step into the mail room and spread them out on the mail table. Then she looked right, looked left, and started scanning them in and then HIDING THEM IN AND AROUND THE MAIL ROOM LIKE SOME SORT OF DEMENTED AMAZON EASTER BUNNY. Not in places any person would ever think to check, either. We are talking seriously hidden.

    We went and retrieved all of the packages, and now I’m sitting here trying to draft a note to send to all of the residents whose packages were left for dead that will somehow communicate what happened, that it wasn’t our fault, and that they should probably complain to Amazon (because WTF!). Also, laughing hysterically. That video footage, guys… she was exaggeratedly sneaking around in a way that can only be likened to the Hamburglar! Robble robble!

    Does anyone else have an Amazon blood feud going at work? Is it just me? I’m not sure which would be worse.

    2. blackcat*

      Can you share the video footage with your impacted residents, with some text like “Our property manager and staff has informed delivery people that they may not leave packages in the mail room. This delivery person did not place packages in locations where they would be delivered.” ? Then they can send that along to Amazon.

      Amazon treats its delivery people like crap, but that’s not an excuse for hiding people’s packages in locations where they won’t be found.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        We don’t have a way to attach the video in the system that we use to contact residents, but I’m pretty sure my boss is sending it to someone at the local distribution center, along with pictures of all of the labels of the hidden packages.

        Yeah, I get that the company sucks and the job probably sucks, but… dropping them off at the door is part of the job, you know? It isn’t a surprise duty.

    3. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      Not at work, but I’m pretty sure the Amazon delivery people hate me as an apartment dweller. I live down a flight of stairs, and I work at home, and last week I heard a huge thump outside my front door. I opened the door, and I am fairly certain that the delivery person came halfway down the stairs and just chucked my package at my stoop. There is no way that they could have gotten back up the stairs as fast as they did otherwise.

      1. Just Elle*

        I was at the ups store the other day to pick up a package that was at the bottom of a mega pile of other packages. So the UPS guy just started… Tossing. Straight up underhand throwing, the dozen or so packages about 3 feet away, in front of a long line of stunned patrons just watching him throw their stuff around.

      2. Michelle*

        I’m convinced Amazon/Fed-Ex/UPS/USPS people just throw packages from their trucks or use like t-shirt cannon-type device to shoot them at our carport. I can be standing next to the door, hear a noise, lookout and see the delivery person squealing tires on their way down the street. No way they are getting back to their trucks that fast.

        1. WellRed*

          I think this is probably something that is a local problem. Ours are always walked up onto the front porch.

          1. Bostonian*

            Yeah, as funny (and also not-funny) as some of these stories are, I recently had a notable positive experience with a package delivery: It was a light package in one of those bubble wrap-lined large envelopes. It was delivered on a particularly windy day, and the delivery person tucked it under a heavy object already on our porch so that it wouldn’t blow away. :-D

        2. Gumby*

          Quote from a customer: I’m still trying to figure out if FedEx actually stopped the plane before throwing [the last product you shipped here] out.

          1. KoiFeeder*

            I mean, I’ve seen my local FedEx driver throw packages out of a moving truck at the door. I would not be surprised.

      3. Old Admin*

        I agree. I’ve had Amazon delivery throw a package with a cast iron pan in it so hard it left a dent in the walkway at my door, and the CAST IRON pan was damaged!

    4. Just Elle*

      hahhhhhh I love this. I’d give you all the internet points if you posted this.
      The new amazon-owned delivery service is the literal worst.

    5. SomebodyElse*

      Oh that is just beautiful… the imagery of the hamburgler. Thank you for sharing this today!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        I have been unable to stop randomly exclaiming “Robble robble!” in the middle of the office since it happened.

    6. Michelle*

      Not a Amazon feud, but it does have to do with the mail. We 2 company cars that can be checked out by anyone on company business. We usually have a couple off-site meetings a week and use them for bank and mail runs and the occasional picking up a speaker/VIP from the airport.

      So we have one lady that wants me or the security staff to do mail runs, even if we are extremely busy. She used to stand in my cube and ask about the mail, if I am going to the mail, do I think I will get to it, etc., over and over. I have told her repeatedly that she can check out one of the company cars and go herself if it’s that important. So then she would go bother security. Recently, she was doing her usual standing in my cube and hounding routine. She said she had a personal package coming and she needed it today. I was having a busy day and that just broke me. I turned around and said in the deadliest, iciest voice ever that I was not the damned mail woman and if she has a personal package coming she needs to check out a f’ing company car and go get it herself and leave me alone to do my job. Not my proudest moment. I guess she got the message because she left my cube and has not been back asking about mail.

      You can check out a company car, cruise to the post office (getting out of the office!!) and even have lunch while you are in town. Sometimes I am just too busy with work to do the post office stuff and if we are having a busy day, Security can’t go either. We would LOVE to be able to go but sometimes it’s not possible.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Lort in hebbin. Is she afraid of driving or without a license or something??? Otherwise, that is bizarre…

      2. WellRed*

        Michelle, you rock! She had some nerve demanding you pick up anything let alone her PERSONAL PACKAGE!

    7. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I live in an apartment complex that has a package room with a digital notification system and my management company has been at WAR with the Amazon delivery people dumping packages on the floor instead of scanning them into the system and putting them on the correct shelves. There’s now a giant sign: “Delivery Drivers you are under video surveillance! If you do not deliver packages correctly you will be reported to your employer and banned from the building!!”

      At my last work, we had a huge problem with the Amazon delivery people not coming in to the office to deliver packages. They’d leave them on the fire alarm box next to the ladies’ room, so any time one of the women in the office went to the restroom they’d find a pile of Amazon packages and end up carrying them to the mailroom before they got stolen.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Oh man, I can’t imagine the irritation of finding package piles outside of the bathroom. That’s so weird! I get why our folks keep trying to deliver to the office (allergic to stairs) but why on earth would you rather dump stuff by a bathroom instead of inside of the office???

    8. MicrobioChic*

      No war, but when I lived in an apartment complex Amazon, Fed-Ex, UPS, etc would only deliver packages to the apartment office.

      I did not live in a rich person fancy pants complex though, so I think it was a security thing.

      Hellmouth, have you been able to give notice yet?

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Not yet! My criminal background should have come back in by today, but once it does everything gets turned back over to the very, very, very slow person who is handling the HR liaising stuff (until I get there and can start doing it, huzzah!). So it could be up to another 10-14 days until I can give notice (as, according to my contacts, this person thinks that worst case scenario deadlines = the actual due date). BUT! One of my contacts (who is a manager in the section where I will be working) emailed me this morning asking me if I had a start date yet (because he really, really, really wants me to start soon) and he is now aware that this person dragging feet will be the only thing stopping me from giving notice so… maybe someone will lean on her so she gets the paperwork done a little more quickly? I would REALLY like to start before late November/early December rolls around.

    9. Fikly*

      My apartment building has a secure mailroom, with key fob access. All the local package places can get key fobs for it.

      Many of them choose to leave packages sitting in the lobby outside the mailroom, unsecured, for any non-residents wandering through the lobby to take.

      One of the packages left there was my brand new laptop, in a box that clearly designated it as a very expensive electronic thing. I got lucky, was at home the day it was delivered, and found it an hour later. When I called FedEx to complain, the agent told me that there was no way it hadn’t been left in the mailroom, and that a resident must have taken all 21 boxes from the mailroom and stacked them in the lobby. When I asked him why someone would do this, he said that their drivers would never break policy.

      Of course, there’s also all the times Amazon claims packages that are physically too large to fit (by a large margin) have been left in my actual mailbox.

    10. Veryanon*

      No blood feud, but my dogs hate the Amazon/UPS/Fedex/USPS delivery people and bark like crazy when they deliver stuff (FWIW the dogs are always inside and cannot actually harm anyone; they just sound fierce). I often find packages that appear to have been shot out of a cannon from a moving vehicle vaguely on my property. On the other hand, the UPS guy has started leaving dog biscuits on top of my packages. LOL.

  160. Graphic Design/Marketing Interview Advice*

    Upcoming interview will also consist of an assignment to be completed on site in about an hour. Any tips or advice how to prepare or what to expect?

    2. Betty Wight*

      In my field interviews are an hour of typical question and answer followed by 5-6 hours of hands on project time. As long as you’re confident with your skill set you’ll do fine! They’re not expecting perfection. Just do your best so they can get a small idea of the work you can do.

    3. Lizabeth*

      Make sure to clarify that it is a test only and not something they will use later without paying you.

  161. Andream*

    So asking for opinions on a situation at my mom’s work. For context, she is 58 and works tech support at a small company. She has been there 3 years and recently had a lateral move ( didn’t get promoted to the shift manager position she applied for but moved into a different, very specific product line. (Think electronic kettle support from china tea pot support)
    There is this gal, Lily, who had been in electronic kettles but got the supervisor position.
    Lily is in her early to mid twenties (this is relevant) and has been there less than a year. She was hired because she has more manager experience than my mom (apparently).

    I think Lily had an inflated ego: here are situations:

    1) After only a few days with the new product mom was put into the call line by herself. (which is fine she has several years of phone experience) However she goes to ask questions to Lily about product and she says “You know” All she wants it clarity. Sometimes there are specific, odd ball issues that can come up with these electronic kettles. She doesn’t want to cause more issues with said kettles, which can happen if correct steps aren’t taken.
    2) Lily has another job the mall, which is located all the way across our small city. Shift is done at 5 but she gets frustrated if people are still working at 5, i.e. still on a call, wrapping up notes, completing case info, etc. She even shut the lights off one night and the other supervisor (who was working late) yelled at her across the room.
    3) Lily seems to have an issue with my mom’s age. Including my mom there are about 3 ladies all roughly the same age (55-60). When talking about technical stuff with the product she said: “You older ladies don’t grasp and understand the technology as easy as us younger people. “
    4) the biggest time for tea kettles and teapots is coming up. Call volume triples (although it wont affect my mom’s new area very much). There’s typically no time off at this time of year. However, exceptions are made for certain circumstances (wedding, funerals, health stuff, etc). mom has to be with her sister who is having surgery. Mom is medical and legal guarding. She had already spoken to big manager (shift supervisor does not do any HR, hiring/firing, or time off requests.) He gave her day off. Mom was giving Lily heads up and she said “uhuh! [Big manager name] aint going to be happy with that! (Mom said her tone was like a teenager going to run and tell dad about something sibling did)

    I think there are a bunch of red flags going on with Lily. It is my opinion that my mom should at least mention whats going on with the other shift manager (the one who got the lights turned out on her). My Mom doesn’t really want to rock the boat. # 2 is so age discrimination. Mom did say if she makes another comment about her age she will mention it. I also think that the #4 is edging on FMLA ISSUES (since aunt is mentally handicapped mom is her guardian, she just lives in a care facility). What does everyone else think?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      I think your mom should sit back and watch the show… it sounds like Lily won’t be there long. She should continue to talk to the big manager for stuff like the time off and that. But otherwise hand her some popcorn to watch Lily crash and burn.

      Unless your mother has intermittent FMLA on file with her company then #4 isn’t something that would apply… Lily’s comment doesn’t matter since the big manager already ok’d the time off.

      #2 could be something that she takes to big manager if she wants, but I’d do it in a ‘just thought you should know in case it happens again’ sort of way.

      The biggest thing is that people like Lily usually ends up shooting themselves in the foot… if the company and department is otherwise and ok place to be, I’d just wait for the inevitable to happen.

    2. fposte*

      What’s your mom looking to have happen?

      Right now this is a laundry list about Ways in Which Lily Sucks. Those are hard to make actionable. This isn’t likely to rise to the firing level of suckage, and only one, #3, is likely to have legal implications (4 isn’t FMLA unless Mom has actually taken FMLA for it, and it also doesn’t sound if it was FMLA that Big Manager told Lily that). On 2, management might actually support Lily if the staff is non-exempt and the employer doesn’t pay OT–people need to get out when their shifts end.

      What I’d lean toward doing is going to Big Manager and saying “I have a couple of concerns about Lily. She’s freely made discriminatory ageist remarks and has headed toward possible trouble in what could have been a legally protected FMLA absence. I’m uncomfortable pushing back directly with her, but I’d like to feel that our supervisors were on board when it comes to obeying federal law. Is that something she could get some guidance on?”

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      There’s definitely something odd going on with Lily. I think if your mom can do a casual mention to the other supervisor and just test the waters, I’d go for it. Until that point, I’d just start a log of instances with date/time/occurrences/witnesses.

    4. Earthwalker*

      Is it possible that your mom’s company, or perhaps just Lily, wants to fire her because of her age? One way to go about that, since it’s illegal to fire someone for being over 40, is to set the older person up to fail and then fire them for incompetence. What Lily is doing and saying suggests that might be the intention.

  162. Duff*

    We have a Keurig. There is at least one person who leaves their used K-cup in the machine almost daily. There are signs on and around the machine, and a small garbage can. But no change! Any other suggestions? Would it be weird to bring this up at a staff meeting?

      1. valentine*

        It’s better to leave it to dry. Now, you have a K-cup. Tomorrow, you could have drippings all the way to the trash if this person starts throwing it away.

        If you know who it is, you can ask them. If you don’t and they hear it at the meeting, they’re going to wonder who the perp is.

    2. nat*

      Yeah, I think it’s overkill. I don’t think this is the same as “clean up your dishes”…this person probably just genuinely spaces out and forgets because the K cup isn’t visible and they’re thinking about other things. Honestly, I would just throw it out and move on…and you get karma points for putting up with an office annoyance/pet peeve! I’ve probably been this person in some way, so my response is biased!

    3. SomebodyElse*

      lol… there are 2 types of offices in this world… one where you throw away your own kcup and one where you throw away the person’s before you.

      Either that or I work in a weird office. Nobody throws away their own kcup (unless someone is right behind you waiting). You walk up to the Keurig, open the hatch, toss the old one, add yours, make coffee and wander away. It’s weirdly the norm here, and everyone does it.

      Another office I work out of, you throw away your own… I’m sure I’ve forgotten to a few times!

    4. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      No one in my office removes their used k-cups after making coffee. EVER. I’m with you, people should take care of their own used kitchen things, but it’s just done differently here.

      I look at it like cleaning out the lint screen in the dryer: it can be emptied immediately after the dryer cycle or before starting a new one, as long as it gets done.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Only my current job has ever had the “throw away your kcup” uh…rule? We have a sign as well and 99% of the time people remember. I’ve been guilty of forgetting myself.

      Really it’s just a nitpicky thing in the end and you will not retrain anyone who isn’t willing to see the error of their ways. So just leave it alone. What are you going to do? Fire them for it? There’s no consequences, so there is no way to force a subject like that!

    7. Pampaloon*

      I’m a limited experience Keurig user and in my last office I tossed out a pod somebody had left in the machine thinking mildly that I had never seen a purple one before. The next day I heard a co-worker turning the place upside down looking for her refillable pod thing that she thought she accidentally left in the machine. Others joined in and there were several “It’s not like somebody would throw it away, would they? Who would do that?”. I was new and totally mortified. Clearly I should have copped to it and bought her a new one but I was sort of frozen with embarrassment and never admitted it was me.

      1. Duff*

        Thank you, everyone, for your comments. I agree – this is not something I want to raise a big issue over. I will quietly throw it away (while still grumbling inside :)

        This is such a wonderful forum!

  163. Seeking Second Childhood*

    I am caught in the grinding gears between purchasing and marketing, and I can’t talk it out here because it’s too darned identifiable. Please send sympathy, soft puppies, and shots of vodka.

  164. Nicole*

    I’m reaching out to folks who work in offices that aren’t medical facilities. What do you do? I’ve been working in healthcare offices for 12 years and I’m looking to move into a non client-facing career, but the only office openings I seem to find are in other medical practices. It seems that office jobs are very common but I’m clueless to what they are. TIA!

    1. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      I work in a law firm that has [almost] no client interface. I would not recommend moving into the legal world for office work. :-/

      1. Nicole*

        Oh yeah, I think law would do nothing to alleviate the stress that’s pushing me to leave my current field!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Our “office jobs” are customer service roles [account management, input orders, questions about products, tracking orders, taking payments.], we’re dealing with only customers over the phone 99% of the time, only if they’re picking up which is rare do we see faces around here. Accounting, either bookkeeper/accountant on staff and sometimes you’ll have an administrative assistant/accounting clerk in an accounting department or more if it’s a larger company. Sales/Marketing teams, those also tend to have assistants. So you’re dealing with processing that side of the business. HR, tends to have generalists and assistants, which do have to deal with “internal” clients, aka the employees.

      And there’s executive assistants who will be the people herding the cats that wear [hypothetical] suits. Handling their scheduling, doing their billions of paperwork.

      It’s all about the departments in general about what you do in an office environment and the industry.

      Every business has paperwork to push in some fashion. Either accounting, marketing, procurement and of course the biggest one is usually going to be customer support, with a bunch of “assistants” mixed in.

      I’ve never worked where I had to see clients face to face, except for a couple places that did some direct sales on the side. But I’m talking about 20 sales a year with walk ins, we didn’t have actual store fronts or services rendered on site, minus will-call pick ups that happen infrequently.

    3. Rexish*

      There are plenty of office jobs in healthcare that are not client facing. I work in procurement and my clients are the hospital staff but face to face contact is infrequent. Same goes for the Research, financand logistics departments that are in our building.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I’m in medical admin for going on fifteen years now and I have literally never encountered a patient in the course of my work, other than, like, passing them in the hallway on occasion.

    4. Andream*

      do you have a college or university near you? There always seems to be some type of office job opening at my university. Depending on the department will depend on what you would do.You may have a “client: interface where you have to direct student (like a receptionist or admin for a department) or you may not. I think it really just depends on what you want to do.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This reminds me of looking into government jobs as well. They have a lot of administrative positions as well. Records retention comes to mind.

  165. jeweled tortoise*

    Calling all copywriters! I’m new to the corporate copywriting field, and have just received a verbal job offer! As I begin negotiations, might any of you be willing to direct me to resources for salaries and market rates? I’m coming from a VERY different area, and I’m having trouble nailing things down. Even the AAM salary spreadsheet lists vast differences, and I’m unsure how reliable Glassdoor is for salary ranges.

    1. new kid*

      Not sure about resources to point you to, but some of us might be able to speak to the specific offer if you’re willing to share it? (+ some type of geographic context, eg. hcol city?)

  166. Applesauced*

    My company offers reduced parking to employees after X years, and free after Y. I’m coming up on X years, but I don’t drive to work so don’t need the reduced rate. Would it be reasonable to ask for something else (ideally the cash equivalent of the benefit) in it’s place?

    2. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      If you take transit I would ask specifically for a transit subsidy, which may have tax benefits as well.

    3. WellRed*

      I actually don’t think it’s reasonable to ask. I don’t have kids, but don’t expect a cash equivalent to some parental perk. That’s not the best analogy but it’s after 4 here and it’s Friday.

      (I also think it’s a weird thing to offer as an anniversary perk instead of just outright).

    4. CatCat*

      I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask for cash. If you take public transit, it would be reasonable to ask about a transit subsidy similar to the parking subsidy. If you bike, maybe even a bike subsidy (some employers were I live offer a small, like $20, subsidy if you bike in 3 days per week on average) to offset bike repair costs (flats are inevitable!)

      Otherwise, I don’t think there’s something to ask for here.

    5. Applesauced*

      To clarify – pretax commuter benefits are available to everyone (to be used for a bus pass, parking, etc). I do a pre-tax bus pass in the winter, and walk to work when the weather is nice. The cost of parking in our building is around $200/month.

      1. CatCat*

        Try to think of it this way: It’s not that the people that are parking are getting $200/month more than you when they get the full benefit. They’re basically at -$200/month right now and trying to get to $0/month.

    7. Auntie Social*

      No. If some employees walk from other nearby parking lots, sublet your space to someone who is a bit disabled. Not having to walk a few blocks and get to work tired will make you a hero. Figure out an appropriate rate and duration.

        1. Kat in VA*

          No, it’s not.

          Also makes me wonder – at the husband’s work, parking is $110 per space per month.

          However, since he is disabled, he pays $125 per month. Is that even legal?

          Obviously it’s not a hill to die on as we just pay it and shut up, but I wonder at the legality of forcing disabled people to pay nearly 25% more a month for their spot…

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No, this is not acceptable.

      This is like people who want cash because they don’t utilize other benefits available. It doesn’t work that way.

      Also to go a little deeper, they’re offer a pre-tax benefit here for subsidizing transportation fees. You’d be paying taxes on the “equivalent” and in turn so would your employer. It’s also saying that there’s no way they cannot make you never drive a car to work moving forward. So they’re really leaving a gap open there, which most places want to avoid.

      It will also create a precedent that they’ll have to offer to others who want it. Making things even messier all around. And again, that loophole that’s out there in case someone gets their cash incentive instead and then goes “You know what, my wife bought me this brand new Vespa for my birthday! I’m gonna need that free parking spot now…” and the hellstorm of being all “Okay so that means we’ll deduct that $200 a month from your wages you previously had going on there.” Yikes, so messy. Nope.

  167. nat*

    Hi all…I am struggling with the realization that my organizational skills aren’t up to par with what my job demands. For background, I’ve always been a relatively high achiever but am just a go-with-the-flow kind of person. I have a good attention span but work in an environment that is completely chaotic. I’m a pediatric speech therapist and see kids back-to-back for 45 min each, then move onto the next thing. We have a ton of technology issues here too, so every time I’ve tried to keep digital to do lists etc, they are randomly inaccessible. I don’t have my own room in the clinic, and for a long time I also didn’t have my own desk, plus I can’t take documents with kids’ names on them home…it was a perfect storm of just being absolutely unable to get organized. The therapy that I do suffers as a result because I am not always well-prepared for sessions, or I have paperwork issues. Things are a little different now. I have my own (messy) desk, and I am also trying to do a project at work to improve patient care and I am also applying to PhD programs. I just don’t have the skills to organize everything I need to do. I have tried planners (including the panda planner), checklists in outlook, written to-do lists, sticky notes, but I’m just moving around so much and have a barely-functioning laptop…it’s just not working. I’m at the point where this is greatly exacerbating my anxiety and I need to seek out some help. I’m trying to get in touch with my EAP to see if that’s an option, but I think they deal more with emotional issues than professional issues. I guess a coach would be an option, but I would rather try free and low-cost options first. I honestly think just talking through this with a peer who is outside the organization would be enough, but not sure where to find someone like that. Anyone have suggestions?

    1. GreyNerdShark*

      you may never see this but….

      get an ipad or other tablet. And if at all possible get the kind that can use a data sim so it isn’t reliant on wifi. (or you can tether to your phone) An ipad mini or the android equivalent in size with a bluetooth keyboard case is handbag sized (for larger handbags!) and is always with you while being way easier to manage than the same stuff on a phone.

      Then check if your patient confidentiality allows things to be stored online. A checklist or note on dropbox all the way up to reminders or similar on any one of a number of cloud applications. You can use just first name and last initial in the end ifyou have to. The main thing is to have a functioning thing you can take with you and use because the laptop is no good.

      If your employer is using outlook 365 instead of outlook you can put outlook on the tablet and use that. You might be able to do that anyway and connect it to whatever server serves your mail normally.

      2nd hand tablets turn up all the time on ebay. You don’t need a lot of memory for this as you aren’t storing huge amounts of data. Not sure about where you live, but pre-paid data sims for tablets are available fairly cheaply where I live.

  168. anon today*

    Does anyone have recommendations or resources on how to sell people on weird ideas?

    I keep running into an obstacle where most people I woek with agree that my idea was good once they actually see it in action, but their initial reaction when they hear it is “That’s stupid.” Mostly because it deviates from anything they’ve done before.

    The problem is that, in some situations, it isn’t pissible for me to operationalize the idea without getting people to agree first, and I suck at that.

    I know the part about explaining how the idea is going to help other people meet their goals. The objections I run into are more like, “Yes, we agree that it would help us if this idea worked, but it won’t work because it’s weird. No one’s ever done it. It’s not what people do.” Sometimes followed by insinuations that the only reason I suggested something weird is because I’m dumb.

    I’ve generally thought these ideas through pretty well, but it’s true that they’re unconventional. So how do I convince people to try it?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Some people are more visual than others. I’ve found that my boss is that way. So while I can be using words that I know she understands, I also know that she isn’t putting together the picture I want her to in my head. If it’s something you can sketch out or somehow compile on a small scale, try going that route.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      Is there a way to ‘pilot’ your new process or system? I find that people are way more open to allowing new things to be tried when you frame it as ‘pilot’.

      The key to this is that you proceed like you are going to make the change permanent, but when you propose it, you make sure that you say something like “Once the changes are made, we’ll proceed for 2 weeks/1 month and then get together to reevaluate how we think it’s working.”

      Then at the agreed upon time you get the stakeholders together and ask for feedback, this is the tricky part. You need to ask for feedback but don’t really float the option of going back to the old way.

      I’ve never had a process reversed by doing this. I just make sure in that two weeks or whatever to get people on board with the new way, listen very closely to their suggestions and implement as many of them as I’m able to.
      People are weird, they will come up with all sorts of reasons why something can’t be done, but as soon as you ask them to try it with no commitment you can usually bring them around.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First of all, lots of people hate change and the idea of change or doing things “weirdly” because it’s not their “norm”.

      A lot of this is them, not you.

      People create things all the time, they change things all the time. In reality, we’re all evolving at some speed. Some are just over there at a snail’s pace, happy with “how it’s always been done” or whatever and then there’s the creative thinkers like yourself. It’s okay to be unconventional and push that envelope.

      You don’t need people to accept you if they don’t want to. Find the people who will work with you on these “weird” ideas. Build yourself up from there. Poo-poo the haters. That’s the entrepreneurial spirit at work.

    4. WS*

      Yeah, people often hate change simply because it’s change. I’ve had better luck discussing over a period of time how the new thing might work and what advantages it has over the old way, and providing all this in written format so that people have time to absorb it rather than just going with the kneejerk NOOOOoO!

  169. ACDC*

    Should I tell my coworkers I am an alcoholic? I work in a company with a lot of young people (most in my department are under 35) and the company sponsors a lot of happy hours as an employee perk. I never go to happy hours because I’m just not in a place where I can be around alcohol, and my coworkers always ask why I’m not going. I usually get by with an easy “oh I don’t drink and I have other plans,” but that is often followed up with “why don’t you drink?” My team is organizing a happy hour at a Dave & Busters style place specifically for me so that I can play games with everyone rather than just a bar setting. I feel grateful for the gesture, but I really don’t feel comfortable being around a lot of people who are drinking. What can I do in this scenario?

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      You are absolutely not obliged to share that private information. Personally, I wouldn’t–a lot of people can make assumptions about people with addiction that are unfair and could be harmful to those people. You could always say “I really appreciate the idea of taking the happy hour somewhere we can do something BESIDES drink, but to be honest, I don’t feel comfortable in situations where drinking is going on, which I think is true of a lot of non-drinkers. Could we maybe consider something else?” And maybe have an alternative ready. Bowling? Ice skating? A picnic? A potluck in the office (where, presumably, alcohol would not be appropriate)?

    2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I don’t drink because it’s a migraine trigger, you can borrow my excuse if you’d like.

    3. WellRed*

      Why oh why do people persist in follow up questions in these scenarios. “I don’t drink” should be a full stop answer.

    4. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

      You should tell people exactly as much or as little about your alcoholism as you want to. If it’s any comfort, people who don’t drink for other reasons aside from alcoholism (or who don’t eat a specific but common thing, or who don’t gamble, or who don’t want dessert, etc., etc., etc.) are also often asked “Why not?” so this isn’t just you who gets this sort of question. The way to discourage extended inquiries is to make your replies as boring and bland as possible, e.g., “I just don’t like to” or “It disagrees with me.” Repeat as needed.

      But the Dave & Buster thing is tricky. I mean, they’re being so nice! It’s a shame that, in your case, it’s just nice in the exact wrong sort of way. If you’re comfortable telling them you’re an alcoholic and that you don’t feel comfortable around people who are drinking, that would certainly be the most direct solution. But I wouldn’t blame you if you didn’t want to do that – it’s private, and you’re under no obligation. I wonder if it would work if you just said something like, “It is so kind of you to try to accommodate me, but honestly, even the smell of alcohol disagrees with me. Can we try _____ instead?”

      As for what to fill that ______ with, I’m not sure. The Dave & Busters here offers alcohol-free options – I wonder if other places do as well?

    5. Enginear*

      The best response I’ve heard from someone who doesn’t drink is “For personal reasons.”. I got the point after that.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Many people I know who drank in their 20s and 30s quit drinking in their 40s and 50s. They didn’t recover as quickly, the buzz wasn’t worth it, they stopped drinking because they had kids. There are all kinds of reasons not to drink. Personally I would not disclose that I’m an alcoholic—people are so quick to judge. Instead of getting attagirls for not drinking, they’re waiting for you to drink again. If you’re tired, or have a headache, or snap at an employee who’s on your last nerve, they assume you’re drinking again, or just about to. Nope nope nope not me nope.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Would a sponsor be willing to meet you at Dave and Busters (Oh, look, my old friend Fergus just happens to be here at the same time!) help you manage being there for as brief a period as you can tolerate, and then help you leave gracefully? That way you can show appreciation for their trying to include you, but still keep your sobriety.
      And if they suggest doing it again, tell them you have sensory issues and D&B is just too loud for you, but they should go without you, because they all seemed to enjoy it.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I can’t stand the “why not” response, it’s like a small frigging child who gets told “no”. The reason is because I said I don’t drink.

      It’s up to you. If you’re in a place you want to talk about it and make it public knowledge. Go for it! It’ll slam it right into their face and how awful their line of questioning is.

      Or you can simply say “That’s a really personal kind of question to ask someone. You know that people have a verity of very personal reasons why they don’t drink, right?”

      Medical reasons. Religions reasons. Family histories of alcoholism. And of course personal battles with alcoholism as well.

      I would say “I’m not comfortable being around drinking.” People have histories with violence related to alcohol as well. I just cannot fathom the lack of understanding that so many people have in this regard. I hate that we’re such a drinking-culture in so many ways.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      Take a page from Bartleby the Scrivener and just say “I prefer not to.” And nothing else. Or you could respond with “Why do you ask?” and maybe your more reasonable coworkers will realize that there’s no reason to ask because there’s really no answer that is necessary in this case.

      I can see why you might not want to answer that you have other plans every time because it starts sounding deliberate (without the context that you really don’t want to be where drinking is happening). If the concept is team bonding and you want to be included, there are other activities that don’t necessarily involve drinking like escape rooms or local tours (like a ghost tour or architecture tour, depending on where you live).

  170. Youth*

    Small business owners, can you help me out?

    I’m currently doing guides to the best local chocolate shops (not the real industry, obviously) in cities across the US. For example, the Best Chocolate Shops in New York. Sure, people could just buy from Godiva, but my chocolate-adjacent website finds that a lot of our visitors want to buy from local brands instead. So in addition to our sponsored Godiva reviews, we’re doing non-sponsored local reviews for our best guides to help people find what they’re looking for and drive traffic to our site and possibly our other, monetized posts.

    The problem is these chocolate shops have terrible website. Most of them don’t even state how much their chocolate costs. To get that info to make my best lists, I have to contact the companies directly to get more info.

    Here’s what I’ve found. If I don’t tell tell the chocolate shops that I represent a reviews website, they ask me for a lot of personal information about what I’m looking for, and I feel bad wasting their time when I’m not going to buy anything. Sure, they’ll later get a ton of traffic from us, but it seems…disingenuous in the moment. And if they later discover I am from a reviews website, they accuse me of try to scam them or steal their information on their competitors’ behalf.

    On the other hand, if I tell them I’m representing a reviews website, either they’re overly nice (meaning I probably won’t get the genuine experience), or they’re unwilling to talk to me because they think it’s a waste of time, or they again think it’s some kind of scam.

    I just had two phone calls that made me feel crummy inside, one because the lady accused me of trying to scam her because I called as if I were a customer when I’m actually from a reviews website, and one because the lady told me she would not talk to me when I was up front that I’m from a reviews website and not a customer. Neither approach seems to work for people.

    Overall, I don’t understand why these chocolate shops are so paranoid of people finding out their prices? I get that they don’t want their competitors to know what they’re charging, but because their prices aren’t on their websites, potential buyers are passing them over in favor of the more transparent, national brands. So small business owners: what is the thought process behind this paranoid mentality?!

    1. WellRed*

      If you were a restaurant reviewer you’d be anonymous, and then follow up with a phone call to clarify things so I think it’s OK to not be upfront on that. I’d be tempted to include the quality of the website as part of the review. I think though, that “reviewing” a shop and it’s products when you are not actually able to …sample them is inherently problematic, however, and you are finding out why. And now I want chocolate.

      1. Youth*

        They’re all sourcing their products from generic brands, all of which I know a lot about or have personally tried, and most of them are selling the exact same things. It’s more what their prices are, what their customer service hours are, what kind of special deals they offer, etc. that’s going to set them apart.

        But yeah, I keep telling myself that restaurant reviewers do it so it should be fine. I’ve just gotten such extreme reactions from these businesses and it’s really confusing me. And now I also want chocolate. I wish I really were reviewing chocolate shops.

    2. ArtK*

      Continue going and not telling them. That’s the most ethical approach for a reviewer. If some people get bent out of shape about it, you can add that to the review later. They’re jerks and fools.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ah these personalities. I know them well, not one of them but bless their sweet hearts, I know them so well. They’ve been clients of mine over the years.

      Don’t try to understand them. There’s nothing to understand.

      1. Prices aren’t listed because they don’t want their competitors to know their pricing and to “beat” them out.
      2. Prices aren’t listed because they don’t want customers to price-shop.
      3. Some of these places won’t even give prices over the phone for the above reasons.
      4. They are used to stiff competition and they’re overly secretive by nature.
      5. We all hate when we get these calls, no matter how nice you are and how good your intentions are. No matter how much you think you’re helping steer clients to our doors. There’s a million scammers out there that will get this kind of information and then try to send you fake invoices for your “membership” kind of thing.

      So really, it’s par for course. You’re essentially in the same shoes as anyone who is cold calling. The reactions are going to be all over the place. I’m sorry you’re in this boat because it’d kill me inside as well, I couldn’t do it for any amount of money shoved at me.

      They’re not banking on much advertising wise. They’re staying local. They’re famous in the “neighborhood” and such. You’ll notice a lot of very small stores aren’t interested in large scale attention. Some even hate it. They don’t want tourists, they’re kind of awful to them even.

      So many different personalities and “reasons” that could be happening here. But yeah, just let these grouchy lions sleep and if they wake up and roar at you, back away and get out of there. Don’t try to understand their weirdness.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Also general PSA about the “grouchy small business owners” out there.

        Lots of people will go into business for themselves because they hm. Don’t play nice with others well. So they want all the control, they are the “boss” and it’s “my way or the highway.”

        So when you run across them in the wild and are like “wow, aren’t you in the customer service game?” they are like “I didn’t want to sell to you anyways. Get out.”

        These are the people you hear horror stories about when they hire a part time cashier or whatever. They’re not actually “Good” at business, they’re just in a convenient location and people decided to put up with their nonsense for whatever reason.

        I’ve had shopkeepers over the years that are awful. Like think along the lines of “no soup for you!” and if you order wrong, they laugh and tell you to GTFO.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I used to sell a product that shipped directly from our location to their end consumer “drop shipment” is the term used.

          We’d have retailers pretending to be customers to other retailers, to see how much they were charging on shipping!

          Also I’d have sometimes 15 requests for the same shipping quote come in. That’s how huge shopping around is! [This was clearly before free or flat-rate shipping was the only option if you wanted to stay in business].

    4. Briar S*

      I used to work for a small business owner who refused to put prices on the (badly designed) website. The idea was that interested people would contact us and then we could have a conversation that would convince the prospective client that what we offer is worth buying, before they get the sticker shock. And yes, the person who did marketing did everything she could to try to change the owner’s mind but he refused to listen.

  171. A Tired Queer*

    Management is devolving into an infighting garbage fire and I worry for the future of my department.

    My team and my boss work our tails off, but we’re located off-site and we handle all the regulatory paperwork, whereas our sister team handles the guts of implementation. Those things both contribute to this feeling of “us vs them”, and like no one knows what anyone from the other team is going through. The reality is that both teams are understaffed and edging on burnout, but we keep chugging along…

    My boss’s counterpart manages our sister team and plays like he’s everyone’s best friend, but he doesn’t have his people’s backs. My boss will sit down with us when we’ve screwed up and work with us to fix it, but her counterpart will throw people under the bus left and right. He shows up late, leaves early, responds to only maybe 25% of the things that we need from him… And now, he’s taken to attacking my boss’s judgement and competence indirectly, by telling everyone that things that go wrong are my team’s fault… when usually, it’s stuff that HE dropped the ball on.

    Normally I wouldn’t be worried about it, but the number of nasty emails and calls that my team got this week while our boss was out rose dramatically. I’m worried that her counterpart is going to try to stage a coup and shove her out.

    I think the best thing to be done is to keep going strong and being a model employee, but yikes. Talk about a toxic environment.

    1. LQ*

      That sounds like total shit. Definitely a heads down kind of situation, but oooof! Good luck getting into it. Any chance of making some relationships directly with the other team?

      1. A Tired Queer*

        It’s tough to do from offsite, but others have had luck just by doing silly things like sending each other goofy memes in between the requests for “please get me this thing, I know you’re busy but it’s really urgent “! Heck, even just acknowledging that we know the other team is swamped goes a long way. Thanks for the reminder! :)

  172. KoiFeeder*

    From the “is wet hair unprofessional, I got in trouble for photographing the royal family, and more” thread, there was discussion of the infamous tree question (and more importantly, someone opining that maple was a risky choice and cherry was flirting). Further research has revealed that:
    *Maple is a flirty/risky choice because while it’s a productive tree, it produces sugar and not something of substance (baffling, especially since any tree with flowers produces sugar)
    *Any fruit tree is flirting because fruit is a product of substance, it’s usually sweet (the sugar thing again? really, there’s more than a few types of evergreen that are specifically male or female and are obligatory cross-pollinators, but that’s not flirting, the presence of sugar is?)
    *Everyone picks oak because it’s strong and dependable (gonna be honest, it’s not like most people get a crash course in the virtues and vices of every known tree, and oak kind of is the top pick in most media…)
    *Willow trees, especially weeping willows are the worst tree ever (I’m sorry, but I am a weeping willow- tenacious, flexible, often found with amphibians, good but not the best at many varied things, but also desirous of personal space, a touch dramatic about minor issues but not about major ones, and a danger to infrastructure when left unsupervised)
    *I ended up reading three separate essays on this question that were incredibly opinionated that the palm tree is the only proper answer to this question and now I never want to talk to someone who picks palm tree for this stupid question (speaking of plants which can’t self-pollinate…)
    Anyways, I mostly just typed this out so I don’t feel like I wasted three days on something stupid. But I’m still exceptionally confused. People are weird.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Where does the ginko tree fall into this? It’s a fairly ancient tree, the leaves are uniquely and attractively shaped, but very heavy when you have to rake them, and the male and female plants are different. I seem to recall the males are particularly odiferous.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        I have no idea! I was looking up what people thought of the questions because a) I’m not sure why they’d ask and b) I’m not sure why they’d ask and look for specific trees and not just a basic explanation. Ginkgo was never mentioned in all of this, which makes me sad because it’s one of my favorites.

        Also, the males do smell! They smell like cat pee… And I, who have toxoplasmosis, cannot smell them at all. That’s pretty fun.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Yes, it is 100% junk science! I’m sorry, I didn’t make that clear- this has only basis in the opinions of people asking and answering the question.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        It’s definitely junk science. Maple trees produce nothing of substance? Have they never heard of maple syrup?

        1. KoiFeeder*

          No, they pretty clearly meant maple syrup when they said that. It’s sugar, so ~obviously~ it’s not of substance.

          I don’t understand people, and things like this make me understand them less.

        2. NewReadingGlasses*

          Plus figured maple wood is prized for making musical instruments!

          Also, what a about nut trees? Are those flirty as well?

          1. KoiFeeder*

            There was no mention of those, which combined with the fruit tree thing does make me wonder if these perceptions are rooted in, well, considering feminine things inherently sexual/romantic.

    3. ArtK*

      I’ve never been asked that question, so I don’t know if I could even keep a straight face before walking out. If I was feeling playful rather than annoyed, I’d pick some rarer species like koa, purpleheart or sapele.

    5. CM*

      No one’s asked me this, but my answer is “dead, haunted swamp tree with a witch living inside of it” so where’s my promotion?

  173. UPS Drama*

    My office has unlimited free seltzer for its employees, so every two months or so we have a massive delivery from Costco. It’s flipping heavy. I know because until recently I went to brick and mortar stores and schlepped all the seltzer into the office kitchen myself.

    The usual UPS guy always comes into the office huffing and puffing but making a joke about it, not griping. Yesterday was a new UPS person (we know because she was shadowing/training with someone else a couple weeks ago) and she banged into the office demanding we hold the door for her (which is fine but should be a ‘would you mind holding the door?’ not, ‘somebody needs to hold the door’)… I show her the storage room where it should be left, and she responds “well I can’t bring the hand truck in there”, I reply, “of course, no problem”. As I’m walking down the hall back to my desk she’s dropping them on the floor from several feet so I tell her “please go easy on those, they’re boxes seltzer” and she replies “I’m doing my best” obviously peeved at me. I reply “I appreciate it!” and leave it at that.

    About twenty minutes later I go back to start unloading the boxes– she has left them strewn in the hallway, upside down and sideways, blocking the door to the storage room, boxes bent and broken.

    It’s not the end of the world, obviously, but would you call UPS about this? I don’t want to tank this new employee, and I mostly blame UPS for the obvious time pressure that makes their workers so harried. But this is awful service. WWYD?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yes. Call about it.

      She’s not going to last long in logistics let alone UPS with that awful attitude. They don’t do banging on doors and demands, this isn’t long haul trucking. Her job includes doing it all herself, welcome to the world of delivery. It’s not easy but there are standards in how you act. UPS has high standards for their employees when it comes to attitude as well. They are unionized but they don’t stand for being rude to customers.

      Don’t protect people who are awful at customer service. Do it in a kind and courteous way and do her that much of a favor.

      She’s lucky that you had to deal with her and it wasn’t someone with my temper. I’ve refused shipments for less than this kind of bullsh*t. If you have an issue with your job, take it up with your employer or find another job. I’m paying for a service, I’m not paying to deal with your nonsense.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Also request to speak with your local hub. Don’t bother talking to the 1-800 number. You need to get to the local hub.

        Do you ship anything yourself as a business? Do you have a UPS account? Use that to lean on this because otherwise it’s going to be pissing into the wind. You have to get to the regional person.

    2. CatCat*

      Yes, I would absolutely contact UPS about this and complain. Unloading boxes is part of the job. Sounds like she just dumped them in the hall.

    3. Enginear*

      Ehh. Personally I feel like UPS has no obligation to put your packages in a certain area in your building. They’re delivered to the intended address; their job is done. I guess a call to the local UPS might provide some clarity?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        For business delivery, they’re expected to bring it to the designated location. It’s standard for UPS and FedEx. Other delivery companies will require you to pay more for inside delivery options but not the small-parcel folks

        1. KoiFeeder*

          I suspect they’re also not supposed to fling packages out of a moving vehicle in the vague direction of the house, but my local fedex driver sure doesn’t feel obligated to do that. :p

  174. LDP*

    I’m feeling very deflated. I had a phone interview scheduled for thirty minutes ago, and no call, no email. And part of my duties are to man the front desk, so I can’t step away to call the hiring manager, so I’m kind of stuck. I know I should take this as a red flag, but I was so excited about this company. :(

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t take it personally, it may be a scheduling error. I say this as someone who’s made that exact mistake before [and yes, I was horrified]. I had written the slot into the 10:30 slot instead of the 10 slot like I said to the person, sigh. Thankfully in that situation, they called at 10:15 all “Gurl, wut?” and I realized what happened and had to apologize for the error.

      Can you email them from your phone?

      I get the feeling that this could be a legit error and they maybe marked you down on the wrong day. Maybe they have you down for next Friday by error.

      Human error sucks but it’s really not the hugest flag of all. How they recoup from the error is key.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      I’m sorry… that’s disappointing, but I wouldn’t give up on it. Call when you get off work and ask if there was mix up as you thought the phone interview was today. Things like this happen that don’t necessarily mean red flags.

    3. LQ*

      Don’t give up on it. It doesn’t have to be a red flag. The super boring thing of phones are weird and I just this afternoon got 30 text messages that were sent yesterday (and actually sent, the person showed it to me that they went out). Sometimes happens with phone calls too. (At least to me.)

      If you can reach out and reschedule do. If they are weird about it then that can be a flag, but try! Good luck.

  175. SparklingStars*

    Have any of you ever felt you’ve stopped growing in your job/career? How have you dealt with this?

    For context, I’m 38 years old and I’m a librarian in a public library. I’ve worked as a librarian for nearly 12 years now, always in the same role (cataloging). More public-facing roles such as youth services and programming don’t appeal to me at all ; I think I would enjoy reference services at a larger library or academic library, but those jobs are very hard to come by. I really do still enjoy cataloging ; I’m just tired of doing it for 8 hours a day.

    The areas of librarianship (other than cataloging) that I’m actually in and feel like I would be good at (genealogy and records management) would require a lot of further expensive training that I can’t afford. I know that my library will sometimes pay partial tuition for classes, but only for classes that are directly relevant to your current job, so I doubt I would qualify.

    1. nonbinarian*

      Can you start going to archivist conventions and going to panels? Do other professional development? Start making cases for these things at your current job or maybe talk to people in local history, etc. and see if you can get a toe in.

      1. tape deck*

        Yes, I would look at metadata-type stuff at academic libraries. Especially smaller ones where you might be able to wear several different hats.

    3. Kiwiii*

      Keeping an eye out where you can for those reference services roles at larger and/or academic roles might be worth it if you’re frustrated with where you’re at, especially since you still enjoy it. You have plenty of time to figure it out. Also, if you can do things like network and go to conferences, it might be worth it to develop yourself professionally in those ways — even if just for a change of pace.

    4. Lena Clare*

      I’ve done some personal courses online and in the evening, and volunteered for events.
      Now I’m doing a part-time Masters while I work. My employees also gave me a sneak bursary towards the cost of the tuition fees.
      I do intend to move on when I’m finished though. For me it just wasn’t possible to find a job without other qualifications. My resume is not competitive enough.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would keep in mind that the first part of the ladder and growth in careers tend to be pretty fast, depending on a person of course. So it can feel like you then suddenly hit a wall at a point like this, when you reach the part where it’s capped out for your current accessibility without doing something like more training and schooling, or waiting for that elusive opening to come up.

      Sometimes it helps to steer yourself towards your personal goals and what rewards you in that aspect of life. Sometimes your career goes from #1 because it’s going so fast and is so much to learn and grow with, to becoming #2 so your personal goals can get some time in the #1 slot.

      I haven’t peaked but I’m in that “you gotta grind it out for awhile longer and get that experience, despite it being the same lather-rinse-repeat stuff” before I can slide into the next position on the ladder.

      So you’re out of that grow-grow-grow-grow stage and you’re in that grow…chill…chill…chill…grow zone.

      The way you deal with it is shifting focus in the end. I’m a workaholic by nature and even I have had to come to terms with that! Save up for that new training you’ll need to go further and meanwhile, find volunteer efforts or a hobby group to dive into to fill that void.

    6. Thankful for AAM*

      Library vndors also hire librarians, I don’t have great ideas about how to get connected to those job listings tho.

      And maybe another library system that needs to get their cataloging up to speed would be a challenge you would enjoy?

    7. Thalia*

      This is going to vary by library, obviously, but I’m in charge of a genealogy collection at a library, and we don’t require any formal training in genealogy librarianship for our new hires. We’re more interested in your customer service skills, attention to detail, and work ethic. We can teach you the genealogy after you’re hired. Of course, having worked on your own family research is a plus and demonstrates that you’re actually interested in the subject, but that’s the extent of “formal experience” that we’re typically looking for. This is at a large-ish public research library. We’re not one of the big famous genealogy libraries, but we’re not some tiny collection either. So you may want to try applying for some jobs that look interesting and see what happens.

      Also, if you’re looking to pick up some informal genealogy education, I recommend Legacy Family Tree Webinars. They are free for a week after they first “air” and are fairly cheap after that. They get tons of nationally-know speakers.

      Good luck! Genealogy librarianship is a great subfield to work in! (Not that I’m biased or anything…)

  176. nonbinarian*

    My boss just made a huge change to the way we operate that almost everyone thinks is a huge step backwards (think we used to have Free-Range Llamas and now we’re putting them in individual cages). She has blamed my department while trying to seem like she’s not (The spotted llamas are the ones causing most of the problems and need to respect our business! But they’re not the reason!). I was not consulted for this huge policy change but she is making it seem like I was a part of the decision to other department heads. She has also placed huge restrictions on my department that fundamentally change my job. This seems to have come out of nowhere as I’ve been told by her and others that I’m doing a great job. I’ve been interviewed by NPR and local newspapers for doing a good job. I’ve spoken at SanDiego ComicCon about parts of my job. I’m good at my job.

    My question is, other than telling her how this effects me and going to the union, do I have any other recourse here?

    1. ArtK*

      I would absolutely start with telling her how these changes affect you. Put it in terms of your productivity, not your annoyance. “The change to process X means that combing a llama takes 1/2 hour longer, which means that we can handle fewer llamas in a day.” Then follow with “How can we change things so that we get our efficiency back?” Act as if fixing this is absolutely normal. If you get push-back, the union may be the next step.

      1. nonbinarian*

        I am mostly putting it in terms of how it changes my productivity but I am also couching it in “I am very seriously considering no longer being a llama groomer over this” because another llama boss told me I should let her know that.

  177. Me--Blargh!*

    Welp, no response from any jobs yet, but that won’t matter soon. The house is sold, and I’m moving to BiggerCity a week from Sunday. My sibling came by today to assess the load that needs to be moved/stored, and he said no worries; it’s not too much and we’ll get it worked out. I needed to hear that.

    I was hoping I’d find something before I move so I could go into a new place rather than having to move twice, but that can’t be helped. Fingers crossed that staying with mum will be very short tenure!

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Oh cool, thanks; I was not aware of it. I have nothing to enter currently, but I’ll bookmark that!

  178. Elwing*

    I’m not sure if this should go under the free for all weekend post or this one.

    Have any of you watched the Netflix series “Styling Hollywood”? I’m not afraid to admit I have!

    How did you feel about the management practices? (I know you see only a tiny little bit of what’s going on in the series, but I still find it interesting to speculate!) I felt like it was kind of exemplary of the problems you oftentimes find in smaller companies, everybody being friends and all that. I felt like Adair and Jason often weren’t very clear about their expectations and that didn’t produce good results. The firing of Kasia was absolutely terrible! It did need to happen but Adair was so unclear and afterwards nobody understood if she still was working there or not! On the other hand her demands for equity were pretty outrageous (especially since one of her reasons was “I need to support other people). And not many bosses would be ok with her running an events business on the side…

    What are your thoughts? I’d love to hear!

    1. Moana*

      Yes to all of this!

      I am not a manager or supervisor, but I thought the same thing. Cringe at running a ‘small business’ this way, yet it seems to be going well still? Ugh, is it worth it to hire friends? Poor, unprofessional firing/hiring/firing/hiring Kasia. Kasia, I feel you on this because I have family that does the same, but you sending money back home is a personal problem. Love the fit model/interior design lady. Jonathan (?) the assistant guy…are y’all mentoring him appropriately?

      1. Elwing*

        Yeah they had some critical notes on Jonathan (or was it John?) but you never saw it getting back to him in the form of feedback. Just annoyance. I loved Melinda too, she was so efficient and hard working! Incredible!

  179. Sleepy*

    Does anyone have any resources to better understand budgets? I’ve just moved into a position where I’m dealing with formally written budgets from an accounting firm, whereas I’ve previously just tracked small project budgets with my own spreadsheets. I feel like I could use an introduction to the principles so I can more quickly scan and grasp what’s going on when the budgets get passed around in meetings.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Can you ask for a seminar or course on budgeting for training purposes from your company? That would be my go-to source for it for starters. To get a wide overview and then you can drill down and look into areas that may help you in the long run.

      Most people seriously just wing it. No joke.

      I’d be asking for reports from accounting on a regular basis to compare with your spreadsheets, since you are basically just going to have to track, track, track in the end.

      1. LQ*

        Most people wing is it absurd and true in a terrifying way. Even giant budgets and ones that look really formal are shockingly just winging it.

        Someone unknowingly used a budget I’d absolutely just wung for a big project because I couldn’t get anyone else to do it, as an exemplar of a great budget. I wanted to crawl under the desk because there’s no way that’s a great budget, it’s me doing the best I can with my crabby pants pulled up really high. (They didn’t know it was mine, they didn’t know it was wung, they called it all kinds of great and formal things…it wasn’t.)

        If you can dig up older versions of the one you know you’re going to have to look at and break it down, ideally get the origional so you can see the calculations. You can sort of backward engineer what they are trying to get at with it. I have used a master highlighted version tucked at the back of my notebook as a kind of key for documents like that.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’m so used to working in situations where people just sort of…duct tape their skills together in creative ways. I agree it’s horrifying the level of “fake it until you make it” that goes on out there in business management setups!

          I come from a background that budgets aren’t a thing. We have one right now, technically but it’s basically just a ball park estimate of what to expect based on previous years and very rusty projections, lol. In the end we’re much easier though because we’re not dealing with development or research portions, which is what really sucks up your reserves in a lot of places.

  180. Sheep Horse*

    Is there a way to politely decline being moved from your current department to a new one in a small company?

    My company seems to always move around the newer (and younger) hires from one department to another. I’m the newest person and the person who was in my position before me was moved to one department for a month and then another. The same story for the girl who was here before both of us. It’s a small company full of older employees (my group of younger, newer hires are in their mid 20s while most of the long-term employees are hitting their mid 40s to late 50s), so I’m guessing the president wants the younger hires to cycle through different departments to become “well rounded”? Since all of us younger hires don’t have experience in this field (finance) and only a handful of us actually got a related degree.

    The issue is that I want to stay in my current department even if its kind of dead end because it’s the only non-client facing role and I have terrible anxiety. Also, I’m using this job to pay for my online schooling (way different field) and I don’t see myself staying in the company long-term so I don’t really care about advancing my career in this field. So if I were to be told that I’d be moving to a different department, is there a script I can use to politely decline?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would start out by saying “I actually really enjoy my placement right now! I’d love to just stay put in that role, I wouldn’t like to transfer to other department. They’re nice people and I enjoy working with them but I’m really excited for My Current Role and would like to keep it.”

      And go from there. They may just go “Oh okay!” and move on. If it is something that they actually do require for cross training and being well rounded, then you may not have a choice but by all means, just tell them you’re happy where you are and think you’re making good strides there, etc. “I like it and I’m doing well” are the key factors.

  182. RH Cdn*

    So, I feel like I am posting to this thread late…I recently returned to work after taking a stress leave. I took a leave because I was burnt out from work and it was affecting my mental health and negatively impacting other areas of my life. While on leave, I contemplated quitting my position,however, due to a number of aspects going on in my personal life, it did not seem possible to leave my job while still on leave. My family and I decided that it would make the most sense for me to return to work on (part of that was due to the fact that my partner had recently started a new position and was still in the probationary period), at the very least, a short term basis. Now that I have returned to work, I am feeling guilty and regretful about returning to work because I also know that I will be leaving in the near future. Part of my guilt is that I work with clients, so my colleagues may have to pick up these clients and other responsibilities that are being redirected to me. My team and co-workers are wonderful and supportive. However, it is the management that I have many issues is and creates a toxic work environment. How do I deal with the guilt and ultimate sadness once I submit my resignation? I feel awful that my return has lifted some of the stresses that my team was dealing with, while trying to cover my absence and knowing that when I leave, I will be increasing (at least temporarily) my teams workloads and stresses, even though I know that leaving the position is the best decision for me.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You have this set up so you cannot win. IF you leave you are hurting others and if you stay you are hurting yourself.

      Decide to let YOU up for air. Decide first and foremost you have to do what is right for you. Suppose you stay and suppose you end up in CCU for three months because you are so stressed out and sick again. It’s the same thing, you have still left these people BUT at great personal expense.

      Take what is left of you and your health and boogie on out of there. Life is not without guilt and sadness, so some feelings are pretty normal. It’s just feelings, it’s not actions.
      Cry. We have tears for a reason. Crying causes a chemical reaction in the brain that helps the brain to remain healthy.
      Realize that you are not the first person who has left and you will not be the last person.
      Understand that management is not crying over your exit.
      Also understand something, this job has given you the wrong impression about how jobs work. It is not right that you should stress yourself to the point of illness over a job. That is not what a job should be. Nor is it healthy or normal for jobs to load you up with guilt so that you stay on. Guilt is not a legit reason for keeping a job. Understand that when you move to your next place you are going to do a reset for your expectations of workplaces.

      I left people behind who depended on me. But you know what? There was someone before me, who they used to depend on. And there will be someone after me who they can depend on. That is how these stories go. Do what you know is best and do it while you still remember there is something else out there.

    2. WS*

      It’s completely normal for people to move on from jobs. A new person will be hired, and if not, that’s on management, not on you. Give a reasonably long notice (4 weeks or more) if you can to give management a chance to hire a new person before you leave. It’s not uncommon for management to take advantage of people’s natural camaraderie to get them to accept all kinds of terrible conditions on the grounds that they don’t want to let the team down. But you’re not letting the team down: management is, by giving you impossible working conditions.

  183. Amber Rose*

    End of Friday update: our office Friday planking challenge has grown to seven people, and has become a pretty fun bonding thing that even my boss joined in on. Even those who don’t wanna join in usually come to cheer us on.

    Which goes to show, team building can take place in exactly three minutes or less. :)

  184. tamarack and fireweed*

    Just a short toot of my own horn – I just signed my offer letter for a full-time postdoctoral researcher position, which was a really complicated hiring process that stretched on since last spring(!). I let some other opportunities slide by until this one was a “yes” or “no” because I wanted to keep the other PIs positive about me for potential future collaboration (and not think I’d be jumping ship in a minute), so I’m super relieved it worked out.

  185. The dude*

    Fun disagreement I’m having:

    I left my former job four weeks ago. I was a one man team for 2 years, and in my third year they hired 5 more people to be on my team, including my boss. The boss has been there for 1.5 years, everyone else under 1 year. The work we did was mitigating a particular kind of legal risk in an area where lawsuits have been increasing exponentially. Company has 10k employees.

    The week after my last day, it was announced that that team had won the CEO’s award for outstanding employee work. A lot of former colleagues texted me with the news and regretting that I wasn’t included in the award, since I’m not an employee.

    There’s a reception for the winners and the CEO, and each winner gets to bring a plus one, generally spouses or partners. The junior member of the team whom I mentored asked if I would be her plus one, since I had done so much work the team was getting honored for and taught her everything she knows about the position.

    Friends and I are disagreeing about whether I can accept the invitation. I think it’s obvious that I can’t accept it, since it would be much too awkward for me to be there. Friends all say it’s fine and I should go since I did a lot of the work.

    I can’t go to this right?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      How did you leave though? You don’t mention why you left and if the terms were good.

      If it’s good terms. I’m not seeing an issue. If it was iffy terms, then it’s obviously a bad choice.

      How would you act if you ran into your boss out at a bar one night? Would you catch up? or would you want to avoid him? If you’d avoid him or just be super uncomfortable, then nope nope nope.

      1. The dude*

        The terms were mostly good… I was told I would be welcome back at any times, and I gave some candid but respectful feedback on some problematic company wide policy during my exit interview.

        If this were from my boss I’d be more inclined to accept the invitation, but it’s from the junior member who’s been there for 9 months.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh then I think that you’re totally able to go without any issues. I find that you’d be welcome back at any time the most telling.

          I come from a long line of jobs that have had employees come back on occasion to visit. If we had more “events” they’d probably also attend those as well!

          When I first started here, despite the person I replaced, who as of Day 1, they were no-longer here, came back for the holiday party that year. Since it was within a few weeks of the party and had already RSVP’ed. So they didn’t see a problem with her attending the event still, despite being no longer working here.

          If it made you feel better, you could also reach out to your boss about the invite. You can say “I was invited to be someone’s +1 to the event. I would like to attend, I’m proud of our team and what was accomplished. Would it be okay with you if I did so or would you prefer it only be for current employees?” I think that would cover all your bases.

          Sure most people are going to feel obligated to say yes but honestly, being a supervisor, the power is in his hands anyways.

          I wonder if after your feedback, despite them still being happy to work with you in the future, they may be shy about extending an invite so soon after you’ve left. So the junior employee just got all excited-puppy instead of waiting and just pounced to invite you instead of waiting for the boss to do the right thing!

  186. TechWorker*

    I gave my report some negative feedback this week (#1, they made a mistake and massively overapologised, and #2 they got so frustrated at something they snapped at a colleague).

    #1 I brought up straightforwardly, but #2 I first of all asked them how they’d found the task, whether they were particularly frustrated or not, etc. Unfortunately they literally did not remember getting so frustrated they were quite rude to the person trying to help them… (I overheard and totally agreed with the colleague that they’d been unreasonable). I ended up telling them their colleague had said they felt the frustration was aimed at them – and my report was clearly very upset/felt awful. They then went to apologise & I think its okay now – or at least, they seemed down for the rest of the day but okay since.

    Basically idk if I made it worse by delivering two bits of negative feedback in the same catch up meeting – or if by hinting to try to give him the chance save face before I brought it up I made things more awkward (eg ‘how did you find x, were you very frustrated?’ when actually I’m listening to the answer but already have a point I need to make about not taking out frustration on others…)

    (Finally thanks to those who gave advice about how to talk to my other report about getting through tasks even if you don’t have control over the whole timeline. The point that ‘if you only control 5% of it you have to be completely on top of that 5%’ was a useful one to make and when I made it they totall y agreed & thought they could do better next time, which was a good outcome!)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      It looks like you can’t give a lead in like this to this particular employee at any rate.
      You will have to be direct from the get-go. “I understand you had some frustrations going on yesterday. I’d like us to see how you could minimize these frustrations and have other options to consider before frustration sets in.”

      I have had some people who would jump right on that opening, “Yes NSNR, you are right, I had trouble with x and immediately after that I had trouble with y.” The conversation went very well.

      But other people are not so candid. It gets murky when they say they don’t remember. So the reply to that is for them to be more aware of what they are saying and how they are saying it. And you can say, “Typically, when people encounter a rough situation, they don’t tell me that they don’t remember it. They usually remember it all too well. Now let’s talk about this.”
      This sends the message that you don’t deal with “I don’t remember” crap.

      Once in a while everyone forgets something. But very seldom do they forget a whole string of crappy things that happened on a particular day. They remember. So while this employee may not remember one particular moment and still remain credible, I don’t believe he forgot the whole incident. And I would talk to him with him as if he did remember and I knew he did not want to say.

      1. valentine*

        This sends the message that you don’t deal with “I don’t remember” crap.
        He may really not remember, though. Because it flies in his family or it was a minor blow-up to him or who knows? Confronting him about his memory and accusing him of lying is a waste of time that could blow back on you.

        Separating feedback would be coddling him. If he can’t handle these two pieces in one sitting, he’s better off elsewhere. You seem to be happy with mere apologies, though. I would be looking for his plan to avoid errors and mistreating colleagues.

  187. fingers crossed*

    It finally happened! After over a year of searching, I finally landed a new job! Got the offer, accepted, and gave notice all this week. And now I’m in the countdown til I leave my current job. Yahoo!

    I feel so lucky: the new job has higher pay, shorter hours, better benefits, and the work itself will be more aligned with my skills and interests. And people seem to really really like it there, many staying for decades. Quite the opposite of my current job, which has had a 50% turnover since I started 2 years ago.

    It has been a loooong year of looking and I have turned down a few things that weren’t right (as well as been rejected from many more.) I’ve had to take breaks from looking because I was so demoralized at times, and do somewhat suspect that being over 50 might have had some effect on the search. Anyway, wanted to share my story because a) I am so happy! and b) to maybe give a little hope to anyone else in the midst of a long search.

  188. Sexist boss*

    I work in nonprofit management and am #2 on the staff of a small-ish office. My workplace has some pretty sexist overtones and my boss is a big part of the problem. He tells “jokes” that can be really hurtful. Last month he did this thing where he would shout my name from all of their office, when I appeared would yell “take a note!”, laugh, and say then tell me to get back to work. He did this five times in 2 hours, in front of others.

    I emailed him to tell him whyI found it sexist and demeaning and he immediately apologized and self-reported (by forwarding it to the board chair). Since then, he’s talked a lot about how he “uses humor to defuse stressful situations.” The board chair never followed up with me and never mentioned the incident.

    He’s also still “using humor to defuse stressful situations” and told our oldest staff member that at last week’s staff meeting that she was “too old and there’s no place for her anymore” (while laughing). She got up and excused herself from the meeting.

    I know he feels badly when he upsets people. And I know he thinks it’s humor gone wrong/misinterpreted. But he’s been doing this to me for several years and now I see it happening to others who have even less authority within our system.

    I work for a nonprofit, so we don’t have the same HR and grievance structures as most businesses, and there’s basically nothing between ignoring it and starting a major complaint. I don’t really want to do that, but I do want to end the sexism and unpleasant workplace situation. Is this worth complaining about?

    For this and a few other reasons, I’m ready for a move. I have a meeting scheduled with my boss’s boss in two weeks, and I trust the senior boss. He (senior) knows my work and knows I’m competent and trustworthy. Should I tell senior boss? I’m thinking about framing this as a coaching opportunity for my boss, in the hope that it gets dealt with without me having to confront my boss. Or do I need to confront him? I’ve raised issues about specific incidents, but I’m wondering if I need to call him out on the creation of an unpleasant workplace environment.

    1. LNLN*

      When you talk with senior boss, try asking him how he thinks you could deal with your boss’ demeaning behavior. Explain what the behaviors are and how they impact you and the other staff, and ask how does he think you can effectively address them in the moment. Good luck!

    2. pancakes*

      I think it’s very much worth raising. This guy is claiming that he’s defusing stressful situations, but he’s creating needless stress for others by being sexist and cruel. It’s not ok. Maybe you could frame it that way with the senior boss—something along the lines of, “he seems to feel this makes work less stressful for him, but it creates stress for those of us who are the subjects of his jokes. How should we respond when this happens to minimize it?” Hopefully the senior boss will realize that it’s not fair or practical to put that on employees and will step up themself.

    3. London Calling*

      *and told our oldest staff member that at last week’s staff meeting that she was “too old and there’s no place for her anymore” (while laughing). She got up and excused herself from the meeting.*

      In the UK this jerk would be in front of an employment tribunal for age discrimination. Good on your colleague for walking out.

    4. Ron McDon*

      I think before bringing it to your senior boss it would be worth having a ‘big picture’ conversation with your boss.

      You can say that you’ve been bringing each instance up as it happens, but that he is continuing to do it, and you wonder why he isn’t stopping himself. Tell him that if something he is about to say could be considered unkind he needs to stop himself saying it, full stop.

      If you don’t feel comfortable having this conversation with your boss you could instead say to your senior boss that you’ve been calling out each instance, it isn’t making a difference, and you think someone with more seniority should have a big picture conversation about the pattern.

      I have a sarcastic sense of humour, and can make very cutting comments but in a way that make people laugh. However, I don’t do this at work anymore, as I had one or two instances where they didn’t come across in the joking way I meant them and instead sounded too pointed. No-one had to tell me to stop though, I realised myself and have changed my behaviour. It’s telling that your boss is still carrying on, even when people are highlighting the behaviour as problematic.

  189. Overeducated*

    There’s a lateral job opening in my field, that i would get hiring preference for, in the city where my husband works 50 miles away. The cost of living is lower there but we haven’t moved because my job here is more stable – our lives would be easier and we could buy a nice home for the price of a dump with a long commute here (though schools are an issue). I’m tempted to apply! But there are two catches: one, it was posted late Thursday and closes Sunday, which screams “inside candidate” to me, and two, I have some issues with the employer’s policies for work in my field (and it’s not just me), which makes me wonder if it’s a terrible idea to go work with them. Worth putting a couple hours of my Sunday into, or no?

    1. WellRed*

      I would do it if only to make it easier if another job posting in hubs city comes along. Going through the motions as a warm up if you will

    2. LQ*

      I lean toward both “inside candidate” and worth 2 hours on a Sunday. Not a lot more, but I think it’s one of those things where it’s worth it to throw your hat in. If you get an interview that doesn’t mean you have to accept. This is just a toss of your hat, not a promise to work there.

  190. Asocially Yours*

    Just a brief update:

    I posted a few weeks back about struggling to co-exist with a chatty coworker in a shared office. Well, a lot of drama happened, and I am happy to say she rage quit this week. Left all of her stuff and everything. So, no more awkward attempts at conversation, no more random huffs and trying to offload her work stress on me… It’s honestly been great.

  192. Amethyst*

    So, this is an awkward question so please take it as intended, without assigning ulterior motives or accusing me of “theft” or the like.

    I’m trying to figure out how to add income without affecting anything else.

    I live in a subsidized housing complex. Due to the policies set by the landlord, any changes in rent income = corresponding change in rent. I’m tired of being broke, but I don’t want to be required to tell my landlord of a change in income (& be required to provide proof so they can raise my rent accordingly), but I’d also like to be able to have a little more fun…AND save money. Is there something I can do in this kind of situation? I was thinking something like working 4 hours/week at _?_ shouldn’t be enough to trigger this, right? Anyone have ideas? I’d like to be able to KEEP my money, not give it to my landlord & still be just as broke with two jobs as I was with one.

    I can’t ask for a raise as I just started at my job 4 months ago.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m not sure how subsidized housing works, and what limits are set on income (why does the landlord monitor this and not welfare?). But in this situation an under the table cash job is probably the way to go.
      So, that leaves short side hustles like baby sitting, dog walking, lawn mowing, cleaning and the like. Sometimes you might get waitress or delivery gigs too, especially if you’re only looking for a few hours per week.

      1. WellRed*

        I would assume it’s the gvt that sets the rules not the landlord so would stick with something under the table, per your suggestions, nothing with forms and taxes

        1. valentine*

          It doesn’t make sense for him to want to lower your subsidy. I would look at the law to see whether you’d be helping him break it.

    2. Dancing Otter*

      I don’t know where you are, so YMMV.
      Subsidized housing generally underwrites your rent so that it does not exceed a fixed percentage of your income. If you earn more money, part of that extra would have to go to rent, to keep that fixed percentage, but NOT all of the extra earnings. So earning more legitimately would increase what you pay for rent, yes, but it would also increase what you get to keep.
      Failure to report your increased earnings would constitute fraud against the government agency that provides the subsidy. Under US law, you can be prosecuted. You can also be required to repay not just the difference, but ALL the subsidy you received (via your landlord), because fraud renders you entirely ineligible.
      There might be a de minimus amount that the agency would ignore, but don’t risk your entire subsidy: talk to your case manager.

      1. pancakes*

        I’d think any assessment of income would have to take place annually, though, or less rather than more frequently than that—it wouldn’t make sense for people’s rents to fluctuate with, say, seasonal or infrequent overtime pay. In my city, buildings that get federal tax credits for subsidized rent require tenants to certify their income, and buildings with state or city credits apparently do not. This can get very complicated, especially in buildings that might have both, so I’d check with a local tenants rights organization.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      If your plan is to take on four hours a week in order to help make ends meet, that is probably not a lot of money.

      Rather than risk getting in trouble with the law for four hours of weekly pay, I would recommend checking out things like food pantries and thrift stores for clothing. If you need help with something perhaps you can trade with neighbors or friends. where they help you for x period of time and then you go help them for the same x period of time.
      Personally, I do a lot of garage saling. It’s pretty normal for me to find pricey items for a couple bucks. This started working well for me once I committed to stopping at sales more often. People get rid of really useful stuff such as light bulbs, home dry cleaning kits,nice pens, motor oil, etc. Eh, I even found reams of paper for my printer dirt cheap.

      Until you can find a way to get your rate of pay up, you might want to consider your second job IS figuring out how to reduce expenses and add to your life. I have been in this mode for a while now and I am stunned by how new ideas occur to me after all this time. I say this because for the little amount of pay you are considering it’s really, really not worth jeopardizing getting in trouble with the law.
      I am amazed by how long a person can bump along in this manner and how much can still be done.

      As far as fun is concerned, look for free fun. Usually library events are free for all. Sometimes schools have interesting stuff going on. If you have a neighborhood forum be sure to sign in and read the forum. In my area we have a freebie newspaper that comes once a week. It’s loaded with ads because they have to make money but there are also listings of events and some are free events. Fun does not have to cost money.

      Stretching a dollar is just a good life habit anyway. Once you get your income up, you will know how to make your earnings really work for you.

  193. Cygda*

    I know I’m a little late to the party, but hopefully I’ll get a little feedback. I was hired at a new job a few months ago and quite frankly I’m enjoying it far more than my old job. When I was hired, the job description was as “Teapot Specialist II” but I have noticed on my payroll information that I’m classified as “Teapot Specialist III”. My question is,
    a) What should I consider to be my job title, and
    b) There is a pay difference. If indeed there was a mistake in my rate of pay, what are possible outcomes of that?

    Thanks in advance for any advice you have for me.

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      I think Alison would say ask! I noticed the job title is a 3, is that correct?

      Better to sort it out right away. There have been others who had to pay back salary bc they were mistakenly overpaid.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Check with your boss and find out what is up. Be sure to mention that you are really enjoying the job.

  194. Elenna*

    My start date got pushed back a week :(
    It’s probably at least partly my fault, since it took me a few days longer than I would have liked to get the payroll form back to HR, but still. At least I don’t need the money right now.

  195. Thankful for AAM*

    I think Alison would say ask! I noticed the job title is a 3, is that correct?

    Better to sort it out right away. There have been others who had to pay back salary bc they were mistakenly overpaid.

  196. Ellie*

    So I’m almost done with graduate school and currently temping at a company in a department other than what my advanced degree is in. (I’m finishing school part time and taking this position allowed me the flexibility of doing my 1 remaining class and still getting full-time hours. It’s been great, honestly.) Recently, I was informed of an opening at the company where I’m temping for a position that would be applicable to my new degree once I graduate and am licensed. Knowing it was a longshot, I applied anyway and asked my supervisor if she would feel comfortable putting in a good word for me and she seemed to enthusiastically agree. She gave me the impression that she loved that I had enjoyed my work enough with her department to want to continue to work for the company after I have my new degree. A few days after applying through their online portal, I got an emailed rejection letter. I knew from the beginning that this was a longshot (they wanted someone already licensed and probably more experienced) but I thought I had a decent chance through work experience during school plus the recommendation.

    Should I say something to my supervisor? I really appreciate her willingness to put in a good word for me, but I am disappointed. I told myself it was a longshot, but it still hurts that I wasn’t even brought in for an interview. I think I’m more hurt than I would otherwise be because I have really enjoyed working for this company and my coworkers. I was excited at the prospect of doing it officially in a new position once graduated and licensed. Do you think there’s anything I can do at this point? Thanks.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Yes, mention it to her in the context of, “I really like this company. Is there something I can do differently to help make my next application stand out better?” Notice how you have just told her you are interested in applying again in the near future.

      Then wait for what she has to say. She may pick up on the current application and help you. Or she may give you pointers for your next application. This can go different ways, so be open to what ever she comes up with to say.

    2. Sam Foster*

      At least share with her as a letting her know what happened thing and, if she seems amenable, ask for advice as to what to do next time.

  197. My boss and co-worker are too close, it's weirding me out*

    This situation had made me uncomfortable for at least a year.

    I have joined the company and a team of 10. My boss (let’s call her Mary) and my co-worker (let’s call him Tim) have been working together as a team of 2 for many years before expanding this team. So obviously they have established some kind of closeness. I also report to Mary. Tim and myself are of same rank. It doesn’t help that Tim is generally a very difficult person, everyone in the team has had issues with him. Mary thinks he is the God’s gift to the universe and basically doesn’t see our problems. Tim acts like he is our boss and she finds it funny and says it’s just “Tim being Tim”… When few of us particularly had issues with his behaviour, she criticized him a bit but only 10 minutes later she was at his desk, making sure he is OK and soon they were laughing together like nothing happened. We were given the advice to “work to adjust to his personality”.

    At first their closeness didn’t bother me too much because I was new, but after 2 years and many others that have joined the team, it’s still as bad as ever. I will give you some examples:

    – My desk is in close proximity to Mary and Tim. Mary constantly comes over to talk to Tim. Sometimes work related, sometimes not. She seems to run every e-mail she sends by Tim. If Tim is not at his desk, she will walk by 5 times in an hour (obviously looking for him) but turn as quickly around when she sees he is not there. She never asks for input or stops to chat to anyone other in our team. It is highly annoying to me. I feel flash of annoyance every time it happens.

    – When Mary takes a day off, she would call Tim constantly. I sit close by so I can hear that it’s her voice and Tim goes outside to chat.

    – Whenever there is some high impact work delegated, it always goes to Tim. I have asked why and Mary told me that Tim is more senior and been with the company for longer. (He is not more senior than me).

    -Most concerning is that when I have 1-1 meetings with Mary, she would sometimes talk about Tim in a negative way, even criticizing his performance to me. She also likes to use examples of how she has actually given me some perk over giving it to Tim (I guess to make it seem that she is not playing favorites). I then often find out in casual conversation with Tim that has actually gotten the same or even better perk. So she lies to me.

    – Mary also once told me that she feels much closer to me and Tim is actually just a guy she tolerates because he is good at what he does (uhhh -what?). Tim and her are joined at the hip. I see no need for those lies.

    – More recently, Mary has had a health scare and spent a week in the hospital. I was sitting next to Tim at a conference and saw a very long text thread pop up on Tim’s phone when he was showing me something else. It seems like Mary and him have exchanged large numbers of daily messages with play by play details of her medical issues and Mary sending him hospital selfies. Nobody else has heard a thing about her condition.
    This is the first time I considered the fact that they are possibly having an affair (they are both married with children).

    I just don’t know what to do about this situation. It’s draining me and I have lost all respect for Mary when I found out she regularly lies to me. Tim can get away with murder. Mary is in charge of our promotions, pay rises etc. I have even considered leaving and finding a healthier team dynamic but I have a good salary and a permanent job in a field where that’s hard to get.

    How to best deal with this? I have asked to change desks because that would cut out a lot of daily annoyances but was told it would be at least few months before that’s possible. So I am stuck sitting in the middle of whatever is going on between Tim and Mary. I am also being much less productive because I am constantly annoyed by lies and favoritism.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      This is a recipe for disaster!
      I don’t know what you can or should do about it, other than to keep ignoring them as taking the ‘not your circus or monkeys’ tack. Because as disgusting as this is, I don’t think it’s really your place to out them.

      You could also start a job search as you’re not in a particular rush.

      But if you’ve noticed this, I’m sure you’re not alone. Eventually, this gonna blow up big time.

    2. Marzipan*

      I can’t tell you what you should do about it, but it seems pretty clear from what you’ve described that this situation is not going to change. Tim essentially *is* senior to you, whether that’s the case on paper or not, because Mary treats him as such and is clearly going to continue to treat him as such. Mary is not interested in addressing any of Tim’s ‘personality quirks’. This situation – and whether it’s an affair or not is kind of irrelevant, really – is going to go on, unchanging.

      Personally, with that in mind, I would probably start to look elsewhere, but from a position of not needing to make any leaps immediately, if the right job isn’t out there right now.

      1. My boss and co-worker are too close, it's weirding me out*

        Thanks for your input. Just a question – am I overly sensitive when I get irritated when Mary asks Tim questions 5 times per hour and just walks by my desk like I am not there? Tim *has* been with the company a lot longer. Still, there is a toxic feeling to this dynamic (regardless of the affair or not).

        1. valentine*

          I agree with Marzipan.

          The situation is all kinds of weird. Mary is thoroughly untrustworthy and obsessed with Tim. Maybe she’s harassing him. Maybe he is in a gilded cage. I hope you get the desk move, especially if it’s a transfer, but you also have a company problem, because no one’s cracked down on the horrid dynamic.

          1. My boss and co-worker are too close, it's weirding me out*

            Tim seems to enjoy the situation and only speaks positively of Mary. In the message thread from hospital, he actually texted first and also sent her few pictures himself. It goes both ways. However, through everyday observation, she initiates 90% of the contact. He almost never goes to her desk.
            Funny thing actually happened recently. Tim must have told her that I accidentally saw their message thread. So Mary did some damage control with sending me a super long text telling me how she was bored and decided to spam Tim with many messages every day. How she was only replying to what he texted first and was trying to “spare” me and the others. I just ignored all that and responded with “Glad to her you are on the mend”.

            Through my working life, I have never encountered such weirdness and lack of professionalism.

        2. LQ*

          You sound like you’ve hit BEC mode with Mary/Tim. I totally agree about it feeling toxic. Can you look elsewhere? Within the company? Another team? Something else around you? I’m not generally one to say flee at the first thing, but the chance that they will change is so unlikely that something has to change for you.

          It’s really powerful that you recognize your productivity is slipping from all the distraction too, and getting out of the situation before that becomes your new normal would be beneficial for you.

          I definately would stop caring about affair or not. You kind of have to find a way to stop caring about Mary’s relationship with Tim at all and recognize that your position is jr to Tim’s because of the way Mary’s behaving. That’s a whole lot of change that will likely feel really frustrating. So finding something else will be beneficial for you.

          Good luck.

  199. Jill*

    So I’m someone who has had a very spotty job history due to disability. I’ve been with two different employment agencies (Government ones) and only got one job through one of them (which I was basically forced to resign as they demoted me for no good reason at all and had a horrible meeting with the manager where it was implied I was intellectually disabled – I’m not). Since then I tried doing dog walking and have done a lot of volunteer work during that time. I don’t really know what to do. I apply for jobs but I never get any interviews. I’ve had quite a few different people look at my resume and cover letter and took on board their suggestions/changes/etc. I’m guessing the longer I’ve been without a job, the harder it is to find one. Everyone says to just keep trying, but it’s so demoralising especially when people tell me I’m a bright young woman who could do so much in life. I enjoy the volunteer work I do (I do running social media for radio shows, and other organisations and I help run a book club in a nursing home), but I find it hard to feel happy about things when I see my friends with great jobs and lives. Has anyone else experienced this?

  200. Hmmmmm*

    How do you come across well in interviews without coming off “too good”? I’ve had people comment like, “Oh, well, just want to make sure you’re not thinking about taking over the company, heh heh.”

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Be humble.
      Show that you collaborate and work well with others. Give credit to your team or direct reports. If you manage, talk about how you found and developed the right talent so that the whole team was able to achieve and win.

    2. Product Person*

      I don’t know if I’d interpret that comment as meaning the interviewer thinks you are so good that if you wanted you could “take over” and become the CEO or something. I’d worry if you are not coming across as a know-it- all that would be a pain to work with. Something to keep in mind, perhaps you could enlist a trusted friend to do a mock interview with you and see what they say?

  201. 653-CXK*

    Some news and views:

    1) I’ve just finished my seventh month at NewJob and got my first raise in over eighteen months. It’s a prorated raise, but if I extend it over the year, it’s mainly a COLA raise plus a little extra. I’m fine with that; I will also get an increase (if warranted) the same time every year.

    2) The CEO of my company attended a conference and was talking to one of the vendors I work with (almost to the point where I’m almost one of their employees) and their project manager couldn’t say enough about me. I was mentioned in the CEO’s weekly letter, and I felt a pride I would never have felt in the 21 years working at ExJob.

    3) Karma has arrived at ExJob and is serving them a frigid dish of revenge. My former company is merging with another, and in a discussion with a former colleague, it seems that there are going to be considerable layoffs where I used to work when they merge next year. In one respect, I feel bad for the people (and my former colleagues) who really did a good job there, but it’s the nature of the business. In another respect, I am very much glad I’m out of there; I would have been let go too, and even if I stayed to the end, I would still be looking for another job. It makes me appreciate my NewJob all the more, even for its fits and starts.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      There are two kinds if issues with companies. First is with the people: that bad boss, difficult worker or harmful cliques that may form in parts of a company. Then there are companies where the decay forms at the inside—slowly eating away and spreading the rot. The decay could be poor overall management, or could be just it’s a declining industry.

      A company with a strong underlying core can fix the culture problems if they really want to, but if the core is broken it will continue to rot and shrivel.

  202. What the What*

    I’m happy for you that you’re receiving encouragement and acknowledgment for a job well done in New Job.

  203. Mother of Cats*

    Does anyone have experience helping a direct report learn to write? I work in a field where strong writing skills are necessary, and recently started supervising someone whose writing is atrocious. He writes exactly as he speaks with run-on sentences, haphazard punctuation, poor spelling, randomly capitalized words, zero organization, and other problems. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has an unidentified learning disability and never mastered foundational writing concepts in school. He’s been able to get by because our organization has terrible management – they basically hire you and leave you to your own devices. But I suspect his inability to write is part of why he gets passed over for promotions (something he’s bitter about), and I’d like to help him improve so he can finally start advancing (he’s been with us for decades). I also want him to meet the same standards I have for other staff, which include producing communications and reports that are generally clear and error-free. I just don’t know where to start, both in terms of establishing standards for someone who hasn’t been subjected to them and helping an adult learn writing fundamentals.

    1. Penguin*

      I can’t speak to directed training, but if simply familiarizing himself with grammatical rules (memorization, really) and then consistently applying them would help, you might try getting him a copy of “The Elements of Style” by William Strunk Jr. and E. B. White. It’s a short book (my 4th edition copy is a small paperback with less than 100 pages) but it’s full of ‘here’s a rule, here’s why we use it, here are some examples of using this appropriately, here are some examples of using it incorrectly’. I think of it like a English class in book form. If he needs something more like coaching then this book might only be a beginning part of the solution, but it is at least a start.

      For whatever it’s worth, I own a copy because a former boss suggested it after objecting to my prolific use of commas. I’ve definitely found it very helpful over the years!

      1. LilySparrow*

        I was going to recommend Strunk & White also. The emphasis on clarity and simplicity above all, is really useful.

        Learning to write well depends on learning 2 things: how to think clearly about the point you’re making, and how to get outside your own head to see if it’s coming across the way you intended.

        People often get bogged down in sentence structure and punctuation too soon. That stuff is important, but you have to start by identifying the main idea, knowing how to support it with reasoning and evidence, and being straightforward and specific.

        Maybe it would help to have him submit an outline first, so you can go over it with him? That was always the place we started in school when learning to write essays and papers.

        The five-sentence paragraph. The five paragraph essay. And so forth. Intro/thesis. Three related ideas to develop it. Conclusion.

        1. valentine*

          Can you pay for him to take a college grammar course? He may need something lower than college level, and years of classes, though, especially when he’ll have to do a lot of practice on his own time.

          First, sit down with him, tell him what’s up, and show him examples of good writing. But is this the right role for him?

          Add a writing sample to the hiring process. (Did someone else write his cover letter?)

    2. LQ*

      I think using something like Grammarly or ProWritingAid can be really useful. This can at least clean up some of the stuff, but the thing it really does is slow you down. Usually having folks read something out loud can help, even if they talk like that, the rhythm of reading it is often ugly and you have to stop and fix stuff.

      Talking with him about how important it is will be really critical to helping him change too. I’d bet he doesn’t think it should, or does, matter how he writes because he doesn’t think of the writing as a key part of his job. (You didn’t hire me for my spelling!)

    3. Jenny*

      I had this happen but maybe not to your extreme. I recommended they read the WSJ daily, and buy the economist, and pay attention to the business writing style. We’d also spend time reviewing their original sentences and my revised and talk about why they were different. The combo of both really worked.

  204. Juddddddfu*

    I’ve realized a hard truth of my personality. A metaphor to describe it: I’m the kind of person who would apply for a second undergrad degree without revealing I have one, and then feel like I’m sooo weird and psycho to think that the gen ed classes are boring and I’m older than everyone.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Decide to quit putting yourself in these situations?

      The problem in the example you have starts with secrets. When ever there is a secret anything we can predict there might be issues later.
      So if someone is determined to keep something a secret then the next step is to realize secrets have their price. And sometimes the price is higher than we ever anticipated.

      In life, secrets drive people away from us. I had a bunch of secrets growing up. When I got into my twenties I realize that people did not actually know me. This is the price of secrets. Indeed some of the unhappiest family members are the ones who have hundreds and hundreds of secrets.

      The deal on secrets is that there is nothing new under the sun. Most secrets are pretty bland to other people. So why bother keeping secrets.

      I think though you may be talking about a bigger issue where you are concerned that you have self-defeating methods. This might be worth some time with a therapist to talk through. Or you could decide that why you are self-defeating does not matter so much as how to stop being self-defeating. I am sure you can find, even get recs here, good books on this topic.

  205. Yazeep*

    Hi,

    This happened to me at a former job. I don’t work there anymore. But I always wondered what I should have done to handle the situation. Or what I should do if it happens again.
    I was working as an admin assistant in a legal office in Australia. I am Muslim. I don’t wear the veil or any religious trinkets, but everyone knew that I am Muslim.
    One time, after Muslims were in the news for something not very nice, one of the lawyers came to my office and started ranting about how Islam is a horrible religion, gives no rights to women etc. I was so shocked, I froze and stared at him until he left. I think I forgot how to talk!
    Another time, the same lawyer came into my office and asked if I knew that the colleague I was just chatting to is Jewish. I said, yes, I knew, she mentioned it when we were talking about our backgrounds. He proceeded into an anti-Jewish rant this time. He talked about how they control everything and how in the old days, they used to have the keys to churches and control how Christians worshipped. Once again, I froze and stared at him. After both incidents, I kicked myself for not saying anything! But what is the best way to handle a situation like that in the workplace? I honestly feel that if this had happened outside of work, I would have found my tongue. But the shock and stress of facing this at work got to me. You are supposed to act professionally, you can’t lose your temper, you can’t raise your voice. What should I have done? And what should I do if it happens again!

    1. LQ*

      A good “Wow” with a surprised look is about as far as I feel comfortable pushing things that people say. Though when someone pauses and is like “I know it sounds like I’m ___racist/sexist/etc__…” I have jumped in before they can “…but” and say, “Yeah, you really do.”

      Even getting to these reactions have taken me a while, but I try hard to keep seriously raised eyebrows and “wow” in my pocket. But yeah, I have definitely frozen in cases like this too.

  206. Stef*

    Hi,
    I’m going through a career transition and want to move out of retail to office or teller jobs. I went to an interview at a bank for Teller 1 position and asked the question what additional skills or experience do you I wish I had that would make me a better for this job. The interviewer replied that I’ll be dealing with $10,000 dollars in my drawer and asked me how much my retail position kept in the drawer. I replied $500 per drawer, but I do have 4 years of cash handling experience. The interviewer and the second interviewer both said that knowing how to work a $10,000 drawer is mandatory of the position. However, the job requirements state the basic necessities for this position: 1 year customer service, some cash-handling, and 1 year retail. When I applied for the job, I got a call from the recruiter and proposed the same question. The recruiter responded that they do train at the bank, train at a center for 4 days, and then you do more training back at the bank. I saw the ad for the position come up on Indeed and wanted to ask everyone here if you need $10,000 drawer experience to become a teller. Also, the interviewers I interviewed with at the bank was the assistant manager and head teller not the store manager.

    1. Enough*

      I don’t think anyone would be hired if they had that type of $$$ experience. The closest I would get is a retail job in the 80s were I did the daily deposits. I recorded all sales types per register and had to sort, count all money and checks and make the deposit. At Christmas that deposit could be well over $ 10,000.

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        If it’s a mid level secretary job in a fairly casual company I think you can wear the less boring suit.

      2. Stef*

        I’m actually kind of glad I didn’t get the job because I recently looked up the head teller’s name on Google from his business card. I found out he impersonated a police officer and had a 9mm gun and magazines in his truck. I just find it odd that a bank would hire someone with a felony (1st degree of impersonation and second degree of a weapon charge), and I’m sure that would come up on the background check. I kept looking around on Google to see any other people by that name in the state I live in, but I couldn’t find anything. Also, I’m actually glad that I didn’t get the job because the assistant manager described the cultural as “we’re like family.”

  207. clothespanic*

    I’m having major clothes paralysis on the eve of a job interview (Monday morning). Like most mortals, I have to go with the choices I have on the rack, not some idealized Wall Street power outfit that is utterly unavailable in the town that I live in. Do I choose the great-fitting, crisp, professional-looking outfit with the cheerful yet still professional/serious jacket color that would be appropriate for any important business function but is NOT an “interview suit”? Or do I go for the funereal and probably more “seasonable” black suit that looks Very Very Serious and does not show my personality at all? (Trust me, I don’t have a wacky personality. I’m trying to choose between boring white, boring off-white, or tasteful lilac for the blouse under the black suit)

    I’m sorry but I have successfully interviewed and landed jobs in pantsuits (never wearing a skirt) in my town and all this advice about “YOU MUST WEAR NAVY OR BLACK AND A SKIRT AND HIGH HEELS!” weirds me out. I’m just interviewing for a mid level secretary job, to be honest, I’m not in the running for junior partner.

    But what do you think? The company I’m interviewing at seems fairly down to earth but their clientele (who come into the office frequently) are probably always wearing business suits.

    1. it happens*

      Wear the one you feel better in. If you feel self-conscious in the funeral suit you might not appear as confident as you feel about your experience, which is what they want to talk to you about. Good luck

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Wear the one that distracts you the least. You want to get to the interview and not have a second thought about what you are wearing. Which clothes are going to help you accomplish this?

  208. googs*

    TL;DR: How have people un-traumatized themselves from an OldJob?

    I spent a year and a half at a job where I am now realizing I had a bad manager who thought they were a good manager (lots of gaslighting, i.e. “I said to tell me when X happens” when the month before he’d said I should handle it alone), people who were generally under-stimulated and passive-aggressive and probably (definitely) unhappy with a culture of negativity and poor communication. A coworker who thought everyone was a dummy but them and overshared her personal life. Every interaction felt stunted and awkward and I spent SO much time trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. Because everyone was nice enough, y’know? I also felt I was being treated oddly as the non-white employees treated me like how I thought was normal (i.e. listened to me without filtering my words through the scenario they had in their heads, didn’t talk over me, respected when me when I said no, trusted me to do my work) but most of my white coworkers and bosses (not all of them!) talked to me like I was an infant and micromanaged despite saying my work was impeccable. This just seemed like double-talk to me as actions speak much louder than a good performance review. I was going crazy and went from someone who was very cheerful to being quite sullen. It was a few people in other departments who kept me afloat and commiserated that “yeah, this place is like that.” (I really miss them and it makes me sad as they have even worse departmental stories than me…)

    Now I am in a workplace that is…functional. They feel like a team. They have a structure and parameters. They like each other and are friendly and communicate openly. The atmosphere in the office is light (as opposed to the tenseness of OldJob). They celebrate birthdays and greet each other when appropriate. The manager actually manages. They speak to me like they trust me to do my job (and they don’t micromanage!) But against my own better judgement, I am waiting for the facade to break and cannot let my guard down. I cannot get over being tense and nervous. When I left OldJob, I resolved to just go into NextJob keeping my head down and doing good work but that’s not the type of person I am. I am cheerful. I like celebrating birthdays and being friendly and collaborating and getting to know my coworkers, at least on a “I am gonna be seeing you for 40hrs a week, let’s at least be friendly”-level. But I am so scared of the same thing happening here as OldJob when I know it won’t.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well, I mean you sort of have to take it at face value. Act as though they ARE being honest, friendly and supportive and do the same in kind by always be courteous and professional. If that is what you hear and observe right now, it is likely true.

      But I also have to say that I believe it is now that case in today’s workplace that things can change on a dime. All it takes on one change in management, one bad hire, or an economic downturn to make a great workplace a dysfunctional toxic place. It’s happened to me a few times where things start off great, are great for 2-3 years, and then wham! quickly disintegrate. I hate it, but I’ve learned to read the warning signs now and bounce early if I can. Thus far, I have not been proven wrong either. Some people say I am too quick to give up and leave, insinuating that I don’t deal well with change, but I feel life is too short to stay in an unhappy job situation. And how can they say I don’t deal well with change when I’ve changed jobs and learned new things? Bah!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        They are attributing your bounce to the wrong reason. It’s not that you won’t deal with change, it’s that you won’t deal with incoming toxins.
        My wise friend used to say that we only have to see a behavior three times to have an established pattern. It’s enviable that you are able to recognize and react so quickly. While this may be apparent to many people, it was not apparent to me. I thought I had to go through 3o or 100 things before deciding. And this is just plain not true. AT ALL.

        1. J*

          >”we only have to see a behavior three times to have an established pattern”

          Yep. Once is a mishap, twice is a coincidence, three times is enemy action.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      There’s lots of stuff you can do.
      Keep reading AAM, as often as possible. Reading here will help you recalibrate what is normal and what is unhealthy.
      Just like you want a chance to prove yourself, you can tell yourself that you will do the same for others. You will give them a chance. You may need to re-affirm this goal everyday. Toxic places can really do a number on us and it takes time to do a mental reset from “survive to thrive”.

      Which brings me to my next thing- realize you are moving from barely surviving one day to the next to THRIVING each day. It’s a change in approaches/mind sets AND work methods. It’s not just one change here.
      Think of people lost on a boat adrift at sea VS a millionaire sitting in their mansion. This is a good example of survive vs thrive. The lost people are worried about food and the millionaire is worried about investing with ethics. Two different approaches to life where each approach is dictated by the individual’s circumstances.

      Because you have already found things that you like about this job there’s lotsa hope here. Be patient with you while you learn to trust again. It’s super easy to have negative memories jump into our thinking. Try to dig out some positive memories of other jobs where things went well, too.

  209. ..Kat..*

    Hi all,
    I am a bedside nurse in an inpatient hospital (I provide direct patient care) in the USA. My hospital allows workers to put a sticker with our pronouns (for example, she/her, they/them, etc) on our ID badges. Will doing this communicate an open, accepting environment to those who are gender different? Or does it just come across as pretentious, entitled, or something bad like that? I am especially interested in hearing from people who are gender different . Thank you for your input.

    1. googs*

      I think will be a good addition for the non-binary, trans, and gender non-conforming colleagues and might make patients who are also the latter feel safer, knowing the staff are open about these things.

    2. Cartographical*

      It’s a catch-22 (which I’ll explain first) but I generally really like it. It is supposed to take the burden off gender-nonconforming people by making it standard to share pronouns, so they don’t have to correct people. However, it can lead to discomfort for people who are closeted (mostly people on staff, I mean) for any reason — and some people remain closeted their whole lives (outside of tiny circles of friends if they’re fortunate) even if most circumstances align to make it possible.

      It also needs to be backed up by systemic support on other levels. The name tag thing can be used as a hollow gesture or a bandaid by some groups, and it can even be dangerous if protections aren’t secured in other ways. You’re inviting certain people to out themselves so you have to have their backs as an org.

      That said, yes, it can be extremely helpful and, personally, I’m in favour of it. Seeking medical attention as a trans or gender-nonconforming person can be terrifying and even life-threatening — some trans/nb people I know will not voluntarily seek any kind of care no matter how ill they are. The (literal) horror stories are abundant. People die. People are abused and mocked when they are at their most vulnerable. Having an environment that offers acceptance, even when signaled by such a small gesture, can be life-changing and even life-saving.

      Sure, some people will call it virtue signaling, but kindness is a virtue to be embraced. Some people will be cynical, some people may be offended by the reminder that trans/gnc/nb people exist and are even welcome. Overall, most of the community to which I have access feel it’s worth doing. Any convention or event you’d go to would have a range of elaborate and decorative and clever options — just look on Etsy for “pronoun badges” to get a sense of the range.

      The little pronoun sticker is a cultural touchstone that most younger trans/gnc/nb people will recognize. It may feel a bit odd at first (I’m in my 50s) but after a while it gets odd when you have to guess because someone hadn’t made it obvious. Suddenly, it’s normal to think “maybe the surface assumption I could make isn’t this person’s identity” and that might be one of the best effects. It just makes being outside the binary normal and okay.

  210. UneasyTraveler*

    Hi everyone. I think I made a mistake in my new job and now I’m panicking. Before I started, I met with a benefits person who let me know about different perks an employee of my place can receive, movie discount etc. He also mentioned a traveling agency I could use for travel – it was my understanding that this could be used for both personal or business, and I was so excited about all these perks that I used it for a weekend trip I had. After I mentioned using it to one my supervisors, she stared at me and asked if it was for personal use as well, and one of my colleagues jumped in and said yes. Based off info online, either the colleague is right or wrong – I’ve seen conflicting messaging but one outright said it should be used for “institution use”. I’m a really anxious person and will be devastated if I’ve jeopardized this new job that I love. I know I jumped the gun in using the perk so early, but I truly thought it was something I was allowed to use. How should I proceed?

    1. roxy*

      Call the benefits person and ask for clarification. If you have broken any rules, tell your boss and explain the situation. You’re new. (How long have you been working there? Did you receive any printed materials about benefits?)

      What’s odd about this to me is that you learned this from the benefits person, not your boss or your company’s business office. A benefits office should not be telling you about what you need to be using for your business-related trips. That’s the job of your business office or whoever is doing your orientation about business travel. It’s possible there is actually confusion within your company about this.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Don’t worry too much. You did what you thought was OK based on what you were told when you were hired.

      Call or check with the benefits manager and explain that you used this benefit, as it was your understanding you could, but you wanted to clarify if that really was the case because now you’ve received conflicting information. Given that you’re new, it’s most likely if it wasn’t the case and you weren’t supposed to use it, you’ll still be granted a one-time pass and told not to do so again.

      And in my personal experience, companies that tout “benefits” like that that aren’t really benefits because you can’t actually use them are liars during recruiting. Just stop it already! Don’t tell candidates about all the WFH, flexibility, and other perks if you aren’t going to actually honor it.

  211. Lost in the Library*

    I cannot decide what to do, all the advice I’ve been getting seems to be contradictory. I applied for a position 2 months ago, didn’t get it. The position was re-posted just before the start date. I have a feeling the new hire didn’t work out. I’m not sure if I was a “star” candidate, but the interview was okay (I always think every job interview I have is AWFUL).

    I want to re-apply, but I feel soooooo awkward and weird. I haven’t gained more experience in this area (I moved on with my life and, obviously assumed the new hire would get that job and it wouldn’t be posted again). I’ve been told to just reach out to the hiring manager and ask if it’s worth reapplying, but that seems weird… but apparently my idea of sending an email re-expressing interest with my updated cover letter/resume attached is ALSO weird? Oh man, not sure if I should let this job go or not. I can’t remember the last time I’ve had massive anxiety about applying for a job. I feel like what ever I do is weird!!!!!

    I’m more embarrassed to ask if it’s okay to re-apply because then, ugh, I’ll be anxious over their reply (“would it be a NO???”). I feel like if I just send an email, express interest again, and include the cover letter/resume I can just MOVE ON. Does that make sense?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      You said you had an interview, right?
      Can you reach back out to the interviewer and mention that you’ve seen the job reposted and that you are still interested? I would go that route instead of reapplying if possible, because they may remember you. If not, then apply the normal way.

      As for why it was re-listed, you never know. If it’s only been 2 months, the hire may have backed-out and never even started, or, maybe they put the hire on hold and no one was ever hired. But if you see this same job being posted a lot, I’d be wary.

      Some places post over and over and NEVER hire, and the posts are just fakes. I’m at a loss as to why some companies do this, but all I can figure is that it must be for appearances sake to the shareholders so that the company looks like it’s healthy and growing, when the reality is they’re downsizing (or to hide downsizing). I have also personally seen a company layoff nearly all of one department and re-post the jobs, while refusing to hire back anyone who had been there in a re-titled but similar role. Why? They wanted “new blood.” Sick.

    3. Buu*

      Reaching out isn’t weird honestly, it shows awareness they may not want to re-interview you. I wouldn’t necessarily resub your CV. Just drop a mail stating you saw they’d reposted, remind them when you interviewed and ask if you can reapply stating you’re still interested. Then leave it at that until/if they respond.

    4. Bostonian*

      I’d say leave it alone. If they hired someone who didn’t work out AND you were a second choice, they would have reached out to you.

      Also, the fact that the position was reposted doesn’t necessarily mean they hired someone who didn’t work out. However, that doesn’t change the fact that they would reach out to you if you were still in the running beforehand.

  212. Lesmo*

    Hi folks. I’ve read Alison’s “juggling” posts about managing 2 or more potential jobs. I have a similar situation, and I’d love an impartial view on it.

    I have 2 interviews in play right now. Company A have a process that takes 2 weeks in a interview-task-2nd interview format. Company B have a simple single interview process.

    I’m not sure which company I prefer and I’d like to explore both of the interview processes. However, I’m aware from friends that Company B is looking to move quickly in their decision. M Because they’re looking for a quick hire, it’s possible that Company B could offer me a job before I get to finish the interview process with Company A.

    What’s the best way to manage this in a respectful way? My gut says to be honest and say “just so you know I’ve just committed to an interview later this week and I’d like the opportunity to go to it as part of my job search (the 2nd interview at Company B).” Or (if Company A makes an offer) is it simply better to buy time using Alison’s method by calling Comany B and saying I have an offer and can they move me forward in their schedule?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It’s a good problem to have, but unfortunately I don’t have a good answer. It seems either way is somewhat risky, but I’d follow Alison’s advice. As good people, I know we often want to be transparent and honest, but in the corporate world, it’s not the best to be so.

      If you’re honest and say you have two interviews, it may take you out of the running at Company B. However, you don’t know that Company B will actually move that fast either (and frankly if they move super fast, I would see it as a bit of a red flag).

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I wanted to add that some places WILL ask you if you’re currently interviewing, or at which stage of the job search you are at. When I get this I usually try to be fairly vague, telling them that I’m applying and interviewing at a few select companies of interest and that I’m in the early part of my job search/recently started looking.

        I think it’s a trick question!
        I always say “early part,”, because even if it has been longer, I want to keep that to myself!

        1. Lesmo*

          Thanks for the input. That makes a huge amount of sense (especially the part about taking myself out of the running by mentioning other interviews.) It’s a nice problem, but it’s also been an eye opening experience. It’s been years since I was actively job hunting, and initially I found very few jobs that were a direct match for my skills. I applied for several jobs to see whether a lateral move would be possible or not. Now, I’m finding roles are starting to come up that I am qualified for. So I may be left with the classic question of juggling a lateral move that I’d (on balance) prefer not to make vs holding out for a job in my field (but with no guarantee of an offer.)

  213. Paralegal Part Deux*

    I just had the most bizarre interaction. I belong to paralegal groups on FB, and someone mentioned buying boss gifts and planned to spend $300(!) on the gift this year. In passing, I said that gifts flow down not up and linked to Alison’s post on the subject. I also said it wasn’t cool to force others into participating in buying gifts if they’d rather not. You’d have thought I’d suggested dousing the firms in gas and setting them on fire – told I was cheap (um, no) to one woman who would have put her finger in my face if she’d had the opportunity and ranting about being out of line (um, no). It was absolutely surreal. You wouldn’t think people would get that worked up over the subject.

    1. pancakes*

      Yikes! That’s a wildly over-the-top gift. People who are bad at decision-making are often just as bad, if not worse, at handling any suggestion that they might not be making a good decision, and I don’t know what can be done in those situations. So many people double down on being defensive regardless how silly, indefensible, or ill-conceived their choice is. There’s a particular world leader who seems to be a very bad influence in this regard.

      1. Paralegal Part Deux*

        I really, really *really* wanted to point pint out this logic of “my boss gives me a job so I need to give him X” is akin to “my date took me to X, so I need to put out.” It doesn’t work that way, and it doesn’t buy you job security, either. IDK. It was truly weird, and you’re spot on with the world leader. ;)

  214. steve*

    Creation Spirituality lineage for over 50 years. His 36 books (translated into 74 languages), as well as his lectures, retreats, and innovative education models, have ignited an international movement to awaken people to be mystics and prophets, contemplative activists.

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