open thread – November 1-2, 2019

by Alison Green on November 1, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Amber Rose*

    I need to pin down our new CEO for two important meetings, but since he’s our new CEO, he’s constantly in meetings already. I asked him and he said to email invites and he’d check his schedule, but then he doesn’t answer my emails.

    Should I ask my boss to try and intervene, or how do I do this?

    1. Bird Person*

      I’m guessing he doesn’t have an executive assistant and/or isn’t sharing his calendar? You may need to bring in your boss. Depending on who is in your meeting, it may also be helpful to go to the top ranking/VIP who most needs the meetings and ask them to intervene with him, and/or explain the importance of them. Good luck!

      1. Amber Rose*

        Definitely not! We don’t have online calendars to share, and we don’t employ assistants.

        Everything is on this big white board, and by everything I mean whatever people remember to put on it which is usually just vacation.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Is this 2003? What is this craziness?! Yikessssss.

          I would loop your boss in at this point. It’s not like the CEO is going to get into trouble but the boss can help advocate for you to get some frigging attention you deserve.

          1. Amber Rose*

            I know right? -_-
            There have been some recent attempts to bring us into the nearer past, at least, but it’s slow going.

            I’ll talk to my boss on Monday, she’s been in a pretty lousy mood this week.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I send you my sympathies. I’ve been in places that are technology resistant…I loved them but good God it was miserable doing everything long hand in that kind of way.

              1. Jadelyn*

                Ugh, yes. As I told my boss a few years ago while we were working on building our HRIS processes and supporting practices, “I will single-handedly drag this company kicking and screaming into the 21st century if I have to. We’re too big to operate this way.” We were still doing everything on paper and then entering it into multiple separate systems, sending paper forms to IT for people to get set up or removed from things, our recruiting was run through a shared email address for people to send resumes to instead of an actual ATS, etc. Which is fine if you’re a small company with a single location, but we’re closing in on 1k EEs and have 20+ locations in my state alone, plus a couple dozen scattered over a few other states.

                It’s been slow going but we’re finally getting momentum up. We got a new EVP over our function a year or so back and she’s been a fantastic champion for us at the executive level, very focused on scalable practices, it’s awesome. I have so much sympathy for those who haven’t been able to get that far though.

              2. Kat in VA*

                We’re technology advanced, but due to my unit being Federal (with .gov restrictions) and the main office being Commercial, we cannot see each others’ calendars (not even Busy/Free). Makes for a huge PITA when scheduling has to be done between Federal and Commercial execs, but at least my company employs EAs for them.

                Whether they’re responsive is a whole ‘nother rant…

        2. Lana Kane*

          Bring in your boss. You’ve tried all the avenues your company currently gives you, and it’s not working. At this point it’s ok to escalate.

          Also, might be a good time to advocate for a better calendar system.

    2. Now in the Job*

      Hrm. Have you tried sending him an email invitation, and then standing in his office and asking him to check it? It might take a few tries to find him in his office, but sometimes that physical presence helps.

      1. Amber Rose*

        He’s never in his office. Every time I see him he’s running somewhere else. I feel bad for him, I think he greatly underestimated how much he was taking on when he agreed to be CEO, and I hate that I need to be one more drain on his time, but these two things have to be handled by him.

    3. Lisa*

      What kind of email system are you using? Outlook, or Gmail or something else? I’ve never heard of an email system not having a directly associated calendar – he may be hoping that you’ll use that and not understand that your office doesn’t have that system in place.

      1. Amber Rose*

        We were using Thunderbird. We switched to Outlook around three or four months ago.

        And when I say new CEO, I mean recently promoted. He’s been with the company for like a decade, which means he’s one of the many upper levels who refuse to use technology for anything ever, and don’t really understand how it works.

        Changing that is a slow process.

        1. Angelinha*

          You mentioned you don’t have online calendars to share, but if you have Outlook, an online calendar is included in that! He might be using his Outlook calendar and asking you to email a calendar invite directly through the Outlook system.

          1. Larina*

            Agreed! If you have outlook, you can also view his outlook calendar from your own. You might not be able to see the details of what his meetings are, but you can absolutely see when he has meetings.

            I always end up adding my boss’s calendar to my own outlook, to make it easier to catch him in his rare moments of free time. The same is true for colleagues who are often busy as well.

          2. Amber Rose*

            Trust me, he is definitely not using Outlook calendar. I did send him an invite, but it was ignored as well.

        2. That Would be a Good Band Name*

          As someone who works in a company where most people are printing (from Excel!) and then typing data into another spreadsheet, I feel you. Sometimes I feel like I’m dragging people into the 90s, let alone 2019. Since you have Outlook, do you think you can just start using it to schedule meetings and maybe others will follow? Send the meeting request from Outlook and even though people aren’t used it perhaps in a few weeks or months they’ll realize it’s nice to have the reminders?

          As for the current situation, I think your boss is about your only option. Someone has to be able to pin him down and get a time and that’s probably your boss.

        3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          Every time I hear a story like that, I’m grateful for the “old fogeys” at my co. who are techno-whizzes.

    4. Miz Behaven*

      Is it possible the CEO doesn’t understand the meetings are as important as you have indicated here? He may just not get it.

      1. Kes*

        I think this is actually a good point – he may be ignoring the invitations because he doesn’t think they’re high enough priority. You may need to talk to him (or get someone he’ll listen to to talk to him) to get his buy in on why he needs to be in the meetings, so that when he sees an invite he’ll accept

    5. Is it Friday yet?*

      Who is arranging all of the meetings that he is constantly in now? I’d track them down and ask for their suggestions/how they’ve been able to get on his calendar. They might have some inside tips like, “Oh I just catch him first thing in the morning with two possible times and force him to choose.”

      1. Amber Rose*

        He arranges them for himself. With people I don’t know. Lots of busy people running around here lately.

        1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

          You’ll know best if this is feasible… I think what I might do is,
          1. Boil down the key questions to one or two lines.
          2. Decide which one to prioritise.
          3. Next time you see him in the corridor, instead of asking for a meeting, get straight into the topic – as if that _was_ the meeting.

          If he can’t give you an answer straight away, and can’t spare the time to talk further then, at least you’ve loaded into his brain the substantive bit of what you need from him.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Have you emailed a text-email? Or have you set up an MSOutlook meeting ASSUMING he’s going to use his calendar? Might get someone started using it if you do.

  2. Now in the Job*

    At what point should I go to my manager to ask about potentially taking unpaid leave several months from now?

    I got married at the start of September and started a new job in mid-October. (My new company gives 3 days of “wedding leave” to be used within 30 days of your wedding, which I missed out on the window for, womp womp.) However, we planned and booked our honeymoon before this new job was even on the horizon…for March of next year. It is a 12-day cruise which has been fully paid for, so we can’t really change it.

    Originally it had looked like I would have enough PTO for the time off, but on closer look this week, I realized that is not the case. If I use both personal days we are granted for the year and all the vacation time I will have acrued by then, I will be a little over 13 hours short if I come back to work the next day after arriving back home on a Thursday.

    If only I was able to use those 3 days of wedding leave…. xD

    Anyway, I need to discuss this with my boss–would now be too soon since the holidays and end of year are coming up first? Or is bringing it up sooner better?

    3. Not Me*

      Congratulations!

      I’d say sooner is better. It’s not uncommon for people to have vacation plans made when they take a new job. I’d even ask if the wedding leave days could be used for it. The worst they can say is no, but they might say yes.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I was just about to say this: ask to use the wedding leave. Your individual manager may be able to make that happen for you, especially if you work somewhere like my last company where our time off wasn’t tracked in an official system, but rather was kept on our manager’s calendar.

    4. Adlib*

      If it were me, I’d go ahead and ask about it now. Since you’re only a few hours short, they may be okay with it or even advance you some PTO, depending on how they handle similar situations. Just give your manager the explanation here about your PTO calculations. It’s probably not as big of a deal as you may be thinking. :) Good luck!

      1. hamburke*

        This – one of our clients advances up to a month’s accrued leave without owner approval – it goes on the report we send him. For 80 hrs/year, that’s 6.6 hours.

    5. Jane*

      I would first check with HR what their PTO policy is. For example, my company allows us to go “in the red” on PTO on occasion with the understanding that it is for special occasions only and that if we leave the company, that balance will be taken from our last check. Or another company I worked for allowed leave without pay (with management approval) for times like these. You’ll still need to talk with your boss, but if you are armed with some additional information it might make it a bit easier.

    6. Antilles*

      As soon as possible, like today if it’s feasible. The quicker you do it, the more likely it is that they go “oh yeah, we realize sometimes people have pre-made plans” and find a way to work it out.
      Also, I would not start by suggesting the idea of unpaid leave. I would first lay out the situation apologetically and ask them what can be done. Since it’s a unique situation, they might instead go to letting you drop negative in PTO balance temporarily rather than unpaid leave.

    7. LGC*

      Did you disclose that you were taking two weeks off in March at the time you were hired? It might be easier to bring it up if that’s the case. In that case, it’ll probably be more casual.

      If you didn’t – I’d still definitely go ahead and talk about it now! You know it’s coming up, it is a fairly large amount of time (two weeks), and it’s not too long after you started. I think a reasonable employer would be a bit irritated, but not significantly so (unless it’s during a peak time – like, let’s say you work at a tax filing company in the US – and even then, like…it’s more like you should have said it at the time they made the offer, not like it’s a dealbreaker.)

      And yeah, I’m in on asking about the wedding leave, although I’d make it clear that you’re okay with a no. I don’t think you have much to lose by asking.

    8. CAA*

      Congrats on your marriage! Yes, bring it up with your manager now. The best time to mention prepaid vacation plans would have been when they offered you the job, because some companies do limit the amount of PTO you can use during the first 6 months, but since that didn’t happen, the sooner the better.

      I don’t think you should ask about wedding leave though. Let them offer that if they want to. You’re not actually entitled to that benefit because you weren’t working there when you got married, and I suspect you would have gotten some side-eye if you’d started this job two weeks after the wedding and tried to use it then.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      Agree with other commenters – ask for the time off now! I recommend you put the request for the time off in writing, even if that is not required by your employer, so that when the time comes there is no question that you raised this in a timely manner, and got approval. Block the time off on your work calendar that is visible to others to ensure those planning meetings and events are aware you won’t be there. And rather than ask for the wedding leave, which might be subject to rules and restrictions, ask the more general question of how to cover the time that is outside of your earned leave. They may not have the flexibility to give you the wedding leave, but might be able to give you some other sort of administrative leave, or allow you to flex your time – come in on a couple of weekends or stay late to make up the hours.

    10. CupcakeCounter*

      Go now..as in as soon as you read this.
      Your manager is hopefully aware that you have this vacation planned (if not that is a bigger problem addressed below) so just say it straight out that you thought you had that vacation covered with the PTO accrual but now realize that you will be short the accrued hours. Then ask how best to proceed-unpaid, PTO advance, etc…. Make it clear that the cruise has been fully paid for and can’t be changed so that isn’t an option.

      If you haven’t talked to your boss at all about this and were just planning on putting in the request closer to the vacation…that is potentially a huge problem. A lot of companies are not prepared for their employees to take off that much time at once and it takes a lot of planning. This should have been brought up to your boss in the offer stage to protect your time off. What are you going to do if they refuse to grant the time off?

    11. Quill*

      Do it now, there’s only 2 months left of the year and people are going to be out for decent portions of each.

    12. Bagpuss*

      I agree, ask now, and ask whether it might be piossible to use the wedding leave (or 13 hours of it!0 notwithstanding the fact that it was not used in the right time frame.

      A lot of companies will honour arrangments for things like pre-booked holidyas, although ideally you’d raise it during the final stage of negotiating / accepting your offer.

    13. Kuododi*

      Congrats on the new marriage!!! I’d also recommend telling your boss ASAP. The quicker you tell, the more time you will have if the answer is no and you need to organize “Plan B.” Blessings to you and your beloved.

    14. LifesizeLawyer*

      You may even be able to purchase PTO. My company allows us to buy vacation days (IIRC, the purchase rate is the equivalent of 1 day of salary). Not an ideal solution, but a possible alternative if all else fails.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Isn’t that functionally the same as taking it unpaid? That doesn’t sound like a great benefit.

        1. Clisby*

          I would have considered being able to buy vacation days (yes, it’s the same as unpaid leave) to be a GREAT benefit.

          1. ThatGirl*

            I can only see it if you are not allowed to take unpaid days per se so you have to buy them. Otherwise … companies should either let you borrow ahead or take unpaid days instead of jumping through that hoop.

        2. That Would be a Good Band Name*

          If I could over the course of a year have a small amount deducted to have an extra vacation week the following year, I’d jump at it! Buying a day one week to take it the next doesn’t make any sense to me as that’s the same financial impact as taking a full day unpaid in one check. But if I could spread it out so I wasn’t taking all the financial hit at one time, I’d definitely do it. We get two weeks a year until we’ve been here 7 years and I’d love a third week. We’re not allowed to take unpaid time off here or I’d take some unpaid and just budget for it.

        3. Mr. Shark*

          My company allows us to buy PTO at the beginning of each year. They pro-rate the amount you would get paid and deduct it from your paycheck. So basically, you get a week of unpaid leave, but it doesn’t hit you all at once. In that way it is a benefit.

    15. Public Sector Manager*

      Ideally you would have brought up the honeymoon cruise when you were hired, but that ship has sailed … (Thank you! I’ll be here all week!)

      But definitely ask now. I’ve found that as an employee and now a manager, it’s easier to get time off well in advance as opposed to closer to the day you want to leave. Today you will probably get a “yes” because the honeymoon is so far out. The downside of waiting is that between now and then, a big project might come in and the office won’t be able to have you out at all.

      Also, even though your office has a 3-day honeymoon policy, you might want to ask if you can get that benefit anyway. Your company is discriminating against people because of their marital status. They should offer all their employees a one time-three days off benefit. Since you’re new, I think it doesn’t hurt to ask.

    17. A Poster Has No Name*

      Bring it up now, but if your company is anything like mine, you can borrow against accrued PTO (particularly early in the year), with manager approval.

      My company is generally happy with people taking vacations early in the year, as we already have problems with nobody in the office near the holidays, so I would hope it’s the same with yours!

    18. Now in the Job*

      Thanks for the input, folks. I did generally mention it on a call during the offer stage around when I was negotiating for extra PTO/money and we were talking about how she handles time off requests. The context was something along the lines of, we have a couple weddings to go to over the next year or so and our own honeymoon as well, and she rather hand waved any worries about time off requests. Which I can understand now–this department is pretty lax about most things so long as there’s EOM and EOQ coverage. Fortunately I’ll be back from my honeymoon before the EOQ rush, so I don’t think coverage will be at issue.

      Formally/according to the employee handbook, there’s no borrowing against future PTO, and I haven’t seen anything about “buying” time off. (I did work somewhere that allowed you to float holidays–if you worked on a day that was otherwise an office holiday, you could use that time off elsewhere. Great for people who don’t celebrate religious holidays that are observed, or people like me who are EXTRA productive when the office is empty and I can wear a onesie.)

      She doesn’t work Fridays, but I’ll talk to her first thing Monday. Good to know this isn’t too early! I *am* very tempted to ask for the wedding leave, but I’m not sure how I’d phrase it. I’ll think on it. P:

    19. LilySparrow*

      I’d bring it up now, with the natural opening that you just discovered the miscalculation.

      We’re far enough out from the holidays and the trip that it’s not a crunch. But since it’s your first year, it’s an unusual situation/special exception.

      Bringing it up early acknowledges that it’s not an ordinary expectation. It’s the type of request that good managers would want to keep an eye on and not see abused. But not unreasonable as a one-time thing.

    20. MoopySwarpet*

      We have had people take vacation when they did not have the amount accrued. In one case we let them borrow ahead because they were 2-3 days short. In the other, we had them take it unpaid because they were 8-10 days short.

      It definitely doesn’t hurt to ask and I would personally do it now rather than later so you have more time to figure out your alternatives if they actually say no.

      Typically, I think this would be something that is brought up with the offer, which was what happened in my first example. I think about 50% of the new hires we’ve ever had had something already planned they were going to need a certain number of days off for. That’s the way life happens sometimes.

    21. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Other people covered the “borrowing additional PTO” aspect above, but I just wanted to caution that as you have been there all of 3 weeks, presumably didn’t discuss it at the interview / negotiation / offer stage although it has been booked for a long time — I would suggest you tread carefully how you word this with bosses. You are already asking a favour here (and they are within their rights to refuse the time off altogether) so I would wait for them to offer using the days of ‘wedding leave’ and not suggest that as an additional “non-standard” thing you are asking for. I worry that you will be seen as someone who ‘pushes boundaries’ ahead of being known for your actual work product… because as a manager, your boss presumably has to balance that request against the rest of the team’s requests.

  3. Mop Head*

    Hi Everyone,

    The holidays are fast approaching and I’m looking for opinions. In July I made an appointment with a medical specialist for December. I was looking for an appointment where I would not have to lose any time from work, so it’s at the end of the day. Just found out that is the night of my employers’ holiday party. What would you do? To clarify, this is not a life or death situation, but to get another appointment at a time I would not have to lose any time from work would probably mean waiting another 4 months or so, meaning it would probably be March before I get an appointment. Thanks.

    1. Liz*

      I’d keep the appt, and if anyone questions you, you have an appt that you cannot reschedule. you have to take care of you; and the party is second. Just my two cents.

      1. Mama Bear*

        I would ask the doctor’s office to put you on a wait list for any other appointments at a similar time but otherwise keep the appointment if it’s something you’d need to wait 4 months for. I’d also probably go late to the party if I could manage it.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Can you go late to the party? Or just not go? Parties are fun and all (depending on where you work anyway) but your health is more important even if it’s not life or death.

    3. Yorick*

      I’d keep the appointment and go to the party late if possible or just skip it. You can explain that you have an appointment to anyone who would hold missing the party against you. Unless you really WANT to go to the party and it’s a minor enough issue that you don’t mind waiting, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the case.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        This. I had a medical appointment that was too tough to cancel during my last company’s holiday party. I wasn’t exactly champing at the bit to attend this party anyway, so I kept the appointment and didn’t attend the party. But maybe you don’t have to skip the whole thing like I did – I like the suggestion to come late if that’s allowable (my former company’s holiday party closed the doors after a certain time, so no latecomers would have been granted entry).

    4. ytk*

      Personally, I would just skip the party. I’m not fond of these types of events generally, plus with my colleagues, and work environment this would be totally non-issue because they understand with life, family, other commitments, etc that it’s really an optional event – but you have to know your workplace. The optics and politics may differ.

    5. RandomPoster*

      What’s the impact here – you would miss the party all together? Be late to the party?

      In general your health needs to take priority, especially if this specialist books up that far out or your schedule is so hard to work around.

    6. Shocked Pikachu*

      I also recommend calling your specialist office to ask if by any chance they have an opening that might work for you. They probably will not but you might get lucky – sometimes they have cancellations. I think it’s worth a phone call.

      1. rayray*

        I agree. It doesn’t hurt to at least try this. Maybe try calling once, and calling back a week or two later to check again.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Is it an appointment that you can go to an event afterwards and feel okay about it? I would inquire about arriving late. We have two parts to our parties usually, a meal and an activity. So arriving for the first or last one is fine with us if it means someone gets to enjoy at least part of the festivities! But of course it depends on how your company works.

      Otherwise I think that medical appointments like this take the front seat. So only if you really want to attend the party do you need to even be thinking of this as something that needs to be shuffled around. That’s the thing, people have lives and lots of people simply cannot make it to a holiday party. We have people who have family coming into town who can’t come to ours and we say “Darn we’ll miss you but we get it.” but we’re also not monsters like some weird employers can be.

      1. NW Mossy*

        Exactly! Most people who have even a passing familiarity with the complexities of medical care understand that appointments with specialists are especially inflexible. Even if they’ve been fortunate enough to never need one themselves, someone they care about likely has and they can relate.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yes. When my dad has follow ups for his cancer screening post-remission, they literally don’t give you an option except “this date or wait until the next opening and we don’t know when that’s going to be until it happens!”

          1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

            I once called for a specialist appointment and was told, “Take this cancellation next week, or we can get you in for early April.”

            It was November.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              This happens with dentists too! I suppose they are specialists of course but yeah, if you aren’t classified as an emergency, take a seat, take a seat for a long DMV style wait.

              I was able to be rushed into an eye doctor appointment earlier this year only because I had signs of a possible emergency [false alarm but even then it was two weeks of “is my retina attached or not…” stress.]

    8. TooTiredToThink*

      Which is more important to you? (I am assuming you’ve already decided for some reason you can’t do both – although if you can go to the party but just arrive late, I don’t see why you can’t do that).

      Also, who knows; the doctor’s office might have cancellations – could you call them and ask them to put you on the cancellation list for the last appt of the day and then you might be able to get in sooner?

    9. Delta Delta*

      Keep the appointment. So many specialists have months’-long waitlists that a) you’ll have to wait a long time to get in again, and b) people understand how hard it is to get in.

    10. Zephy*

      Would it be possible to make an appearance at the holiday party after your appointment?

      I would keep the specialist appointment and just make an extra effort to wish your coworkers happy holidays/be visible to management/whatever other benefit you would get from attending the party, but during the workday.

    11. Mop Head*

      Wow, the thought of showing up very late never crossed my mind. Doctor is near home, about an hour away on public transportation. Appointment is at 6:15. If it is half an hour, and I got lucky, I’d be showing up at the holiday party halfway through, the party is from 6 to 9. I don’t see the point. I’ve already called and I’m third on the wait list, so if 2 people cancel before then I might get in a week or 2 before the party. They know to call me if there is a cancellation. Thanks for all the opinions!

      1. LilySparrow*

        Keep the appointment. Don’t postpone healthcare for 3 months over a party.

        You had a pre-existing conflict before the date was announced. If you had planned a vacation or were hosting a big event yourself, you wouldn’t move it. This is even more important.

        Nobody at work is indispensible, triply so for parties that aren’t actual work time.

    12. Bagpuss*

      Do you want to go the the party or are you just worried about how it may look if you don’t?
      If you want to go, I’d go late if you can
      If you are simply worried about how it will look, I would go with explaining that unfortuantely you have a pre-exisiting appointment (and if you want, can add that you’ve ben waiting for several months so can’t cancel)

      1. Mop Head*

        I’m concerned about how it will look if I miss it. It’s an hour away, I don’t want to even entertain the thought of spending an hour on public transit to go after the doctor.

        1. CL*

          Then all you need to do is explain that you made this appointment long before the party date was announced and, because this specialist books so far out, you can’t reschedule it. If you’re required to give an RSVP, explain that you’re on the cancellation list and ask if you can change your answer if you manage to get in to see the Dr. earlier. Given those circumstances, no one at work should give you a hard time about it. Most adults understand how hard it can be to get in with specialists.

          1. Mama Bear*

            Agreed. Keep it simple, “I had to make this appointment in July, so unfortunately I can’t change it now. I hope it goes well.”

    13. anon1*

      Is there going to be any political damage if you don’t go? At my company the holiday party is definitely an Event – promotions announced, face time w/ the c suite, prizes and raffles – and skipping it would definitely get some negative attention from management. But if that were the case at your company, you probably would’ve mentioned it. I’d probably try to go late if possible just to show face, but if you can’t make it, you can’t make it.

    14. The Rat-Catcher*

      If it were a checkup that I could reschedule within a week or two, maybe. I would not reschedule a specialist with a wait list over a month.

    15. Database Developer Dude*

      All these mandatory holiday parties really confuse me. This is really a thing? No one cares at my firm if you do or don’t go to the holiday party.

    16. Alex*

      Well *I* would be delighted I had such an excellent excuse to miss the party….lol. But I can’t read what it is you want to do here so I’m not sure what YOU should do.

    17. The Other Dawn*

      Keep the appointment and go to the party late if you can. I wouldn’t cancel any kind of appointment for a work party unless it was known to be a fabulous party I was looking forward to attending. I don’t hate work parties, but I’m not rearranging my schedule for one, especially if the appointment was made months in advance and I’d have to wait months for another opening.

    18. Cartographical*

      I’d tell your manager and also be specific that it’s a specialist appointment. Almost everyone is familiar with the specialist struggle. Doctor’s appointment can sound more like it’s a choice if they assume it’s a general practitioner. Some of my specialists book 12 months out, it’s maddening. I’d also plan to skip the party after — I’ve had a couple appointments where I was surprised by new information and needed time to process. Good luck!

  4. michelle*

    I’m looking for input on what to anticipate when considering applying for government jobs when you’ve only ever worked in the private sector.

    My spouse is active duty Air Force, and we are preparing to move to his next assignment. The base where he will be stationed is big, but the surrounding town is considerably smaller than where we are currently. Luckily, a few options exist in my career field (accounting/finance) in both the government (on and off base) and private sectors. I’m currently in a well-paying, flexible job at a not-for-profit organization, but I have worked previously in both public accounting and for-profit organizations in various industries and capacities. My spouse has an acquaintance whose spouse has a GS job at this base that she likes, which is what prompted us to investigate this as an option.

    Looking at the government jobs, there are currently some openings on base (and according to the website, additional openings at almost every base where my spouse could be stationed), but the pay is well below what I’m currently making. I know there are going to be some tradeoffs, but I’m having a hard time putting a dollar value to them. A government job would have more time off than I currently have, a better commute for us as a couple, perhaps an easier time finding a job at our next duty station (?), etc. but I’m struggling to quantify these benefits against the loss of income.

    1. Yorick*

      Some benefits do have a tangible monetary value. For example, I’m a state employee and my health insurance premium is like $40 per month. You can learn those once you get into the offer stage (or maybe before – you may be able to find this information if the government contracts are posted online).

        1. mananana*

          Since her spouse is AD, she is fully covered by Tricare and wouldn’t need healthcare through a GS job.

          1. michelle*

            Yes, you’re correct. Sorry, should have clarified – I am on my spouse’s health insurance, so that’s not a factor in my decision.

      2. CL*

        Active duty military gets free healthcare already, including for all dependents. One of the benefits that I can think of is that, unless you really screw up somehow, you are guaranteed to stay in GS for however long you want. And if you move again, you will most likely be at the top of the list for the same type of job at the next posting.

        Oh, something you can put a price on is if you get a security clearance for the job – the government will pay for everything (with private companies, they used to pay but a lot are now requiring the employee to pay). You can check the pricing, but I believe it can run into several hundred dollars. And that clearance stays in place even if you leave your employer during the time it is active. That is a VERY marketable asset if you are searching for a job with a federal contractor of any sort, and can often mean a higher salary.

    2. Tiny Magnolia*

      Government jobs pay way, way less than private-sector positions. It’s just the way it is, but there are some benefits: typically your benefits are the benefits. Everyone I know (and I work in public, too) has amazing health care, public pensions and longevity benefits. Personally, I have a ton of flexibility at my job, but I also work late or weekends if needed but I’m completely OK with that if it means that I can leave at 2P some days “just because.” Plus, for the most part, you have great job security.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for the input. The rational part of me knows this – my spouse and I have had many discussions about the pros and cons of him staying in until retirement vs. taking a higher-paying job as a contractor, and the end result is always (barring any extreme change in future circumstances, of course) that it’s worth it for him to stay in. The other part of me just has a knee-jerk reaction to the perception of taking such a pay cut when I’ve worked so hard to get where I am. Obviously it’s not that simple, but that initial reaction is hard to shake.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Is it possible for you to continue in your current job as a teleworker? I presume you are changing states during the relocation, so your organization would have to look at new state’s taxes. You’d keep your current benefits and seniority.

      Keep in mind federal Government hiring can be slow, especially if you need a clearance. Also look at base contractors – salaries tend to be higher with good 401Ks, but the leave is not as generous as government.

      Your skills might also be useful in local or state government agencies. These offer benefits similar to federal, but the hiring process can be quicker. These positions aren’t widely advertised; look online in the state or county website.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for your input. The telework option could exist, but I’m not sure I want to pursue it (or at least, pursue it exclusively). I’ve found having to leave the house and repeated interactions with coworkers has helped me integrate to new areas more easily. State and local governments are definitely something I will look into.

    4. TooTiredToThink*

      Adding on to what others have said – I have a friend that went from Private to Government because as she was getting older, having that job security – even though she was paid much less – was much more important to her. Of course she’s at a level where she still lives comfortably (imho); but it also took her a few years to get there too.

      With your husband being active; I’m not sure if that’s as big of a deal for you; but here’s the other thing – a lot of government jobs are becoming much more telework friendly. If you found one that would work with you to telework the next time your husband gets a change of station; then you get to keep the job as you move.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for the input. I’m fortunate that the stability of his job allows me a lot of leeway in my next steps – it’s just trying to figure out what those next steps should be. Telework is something I’ve considered, but with a few moves already under my belt (with and without him), I’ve found that having a physical space to go to and face-to-face interactions with coworkers has really helped me integrate into new areas.

    5. Jane*

      Government jobs come with job security and excellent benefits (depending on your agency/manager, some combination of excellent low-cost health care, paid time to work out, pensions, paid holidays, etc.), some frustrations (a lot of red tape), and as with any job, the work culture can vary widely. In terms of putting a dollar value to it, a lot of the benefits you’ve mentioned (commute time, easier future job transitions, etc.) are personal – i.e. only you can assign a dollar value to them. I’d recommend sitting down with your spouse, running the numbers (i.e. can you afford the decrease in pay as a family), and talking through priorities. If budget doesn’t rule out the government job, why not apply there and a few other places you’re interested and see where it goes from there? If you got an interview, you’d be able to get a better feel of each and make a more informed decision.

      1. michelle*

        Yes, we absolutely plan on sitting down to hash it out. My husband is a AF “brat” turned service member, so he doesn’t really have any concept of working life outside of the military. I’m just trying to come to the conversation with as much information as I can.

        Thankfully, the money isn’t the end all, be all in the conversation for us, so I will probably do what you’ve suggested. I’ve just worked a lot longer than I’ve been married, so it’s hard to look at the potential pay cut and not have a bit of a knee jerk reaction to it.

        1. Jane*

          I certainly understand the knee-jerk reaction. I’ve worked in private industry, non-profit, and government, so I’ve had quite the spectrum of salaries. Since money wasn’t the “end all, be all” for me either, I was fortunate to be able to find the best fit for me. For me, the red tape + longer commute I had in my government job was not worth the benefits, so I found another job elsewhere, but I know a lot of people who would have made a different decision in the same situation. Best of luck to you!

    6. De Minimis*

      I used to work as a federal employee and worked with the budgets, so I saw the assigned monetary value to the benefits packages. If I remember correctly, they usually were valued at around 15k or so, possibly more if the employee had been there a long time.

      Health benefits are often less expensive than the private sector [but not always.] You can get some sort of pension after 5 years of service. Their 401k=type plan is excellent. The places where I’ve worked, it’s usually fairly easy to get time off. I’ve seen telework utilized more and more [sometimes too much…]

      Workplaces can really vary between agencies. I had a pretty good job at my first agency, then had a job later on elsewhere that was really terrible. I work in accounting as well, and it can be pretty frustrating at times because it often takes several people to work together to just pay a bill, record an asset, or post revenue. Like any workplace, it all depends on how people form relationships with other team members, and between departments.

      I’m not sure, but I believe military spouses are a special preference hire group with the federal government.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for the input. I’ve worked at some pretty toxic workplaces, so as long as the office environment is pretty stable, I think I can handle (most of) those frustrations. The potential for a pension and 401k plans are definitely the leading consideration in our situation. It’s been great to hear about the flexibility – that’s something I really value in my current job and would hate to lose out on.

    7. Sister Spider*

      I would also keep in mind that in my experience, hiring in the government takes forever, generally over the course of a few months – one job took 5 months from submitting the application to accepting the position, including a wait long enough to be contacted for an interview that I assumed that they just weren’t interested. I haven’t worked in your sector though.

      I can also tell you that as someone who went from government to private sector, you cannot beat the work-life balance or benefits of a government job. If you stay 15 or more minutes past your 8 hour tour, you get credit time for the future (up to 24 hours). You can carry over unlimited sick time and 240 hours of vacation time from year-to-year. If you have to travel, you get comp time if you have to travel on a day off.

      If you’re someone who’s motivated by accomplishments and rewards, it might not be the place for you. People who come in and do the bare minimum to get by will receive the same ratings as you, because the structure of performance reviews is quite frankly bizarre to me. It’s very difficult to fire toxic employees.

      Ultimately, I wish I could have made my government job work but the commute for me was soul-crushing and I was at a point in my career where I couldn’t move up any more without transitioning into management (which I didn’t want to do because of the reasons in the previous paragraph). Good luck!

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for the input. Since we get about 6 months’ worth of notice for the move, that’s why I’m starting to think about it. The long wind up could potentially work in our favor, but it’s definitely something we’re prepared to deal with.

        Vacation time is our only real sticking point with my job now – he has a ton of it and I accrue (and probably always will, since we’re moving every 3-4 years) at what feel’s like a snail’s pace. Accruing and carrying that much time would be a definite perk.

        1. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

          Hang on, you don’t accrue 240 hours a year! That’s just how much you can roll over. For your first 3 years of federal service you get 4 hours of AL per pay period (13 days/year). Then at 3 years you get 6 h/pp and 4 extra in the last pp (20 d/yr), and then you get 8 h/pp after 15 years of service (208 hours of 26 days/year)

            1. michelle*

              Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that I thought I’d accrue that much – just accruing at a rate more like my spouse’s (adjusted for time in the position, of course) would be a huge perk.

              1. Sister Spider*

                Also, don’t be afraid to negotiate – if they really want to hire you, they can move you up steps within a GS level, although this will affect your in-grade raises over time.

    8. Hooray College Football!*

      USAJobs has resources for Military Spouses – https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/working-in-government/unique-hiring-paths/military-spouses/

      The benefits now are less than when I started with the Gov’t in 2000 – in that you now contribute more to your pension than I have had to. I took a fairly large pay cut to move to Gov’t work, but do not regret it. The job stability (except the furlough, where we did lose about 2 weeks of pay in 2013), benefits, pension, TSP, health insurance, but mostly quality of life and work.

      When applying/interviewing, be certain to request that they adjust your leave granted per pay period to account for your years of service in private industry. Brand new hires generally only earn 4 hours of leave per pay period, but if you have 10 years of outside experience, they can start you at 6 hours per pay period (you get 8 hours per pay period at year 15). Add to that the federal holidays you’ll get off, and it isn’t terrible (4 is rough, 6 is doable).

      If you want into the student loan repayment program, you also need to request it as part of your hiring package. I don’t have experience with that, however.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for your input. The thing I like most about my job now is the flexibility, so it’s nice to know that exists elsewhere (as it definitely did not at some of my former jobs). I’ll be sure to ask about adjusting leave if/when the time comes.

    9. Madeleine Matilda*

      As a military spouse you may have hiring preference. See https://www.usajobs.gov/Help/working-in-government/unique-hiring-paths/military-spouses/
      A few things to keep in mind: 1) the hiring process can be months long, 2) You can negotiate your salary based on your current salary. They may not be able to exactly match it, but can ask for a higher starting step based on your experience, 3) you can also negotiate your leave depending on your years of experience, 4) government jobs have excellent benefits so it may be worth a lower salary. Research the TSP and the FERS pension, 5) here is another resource for military spouse employment https://myseco.militaryonesource.mil/portal/content/view/1440. Good luck.

    10. CupcakeCounter*

      I would say the biggest benefit for someone married to active duty would be the potential for future employment at the next duty station. There is a security there that should help in the long run as well as the possibility of have it look like a longer job on the resume (instead of 2-3 years in the private sector at various bases you would have a 9 year stint at 3 different locations of the same “company”).
      If your partner’s assignments are generally longer term that probably isn’t as big of an issue though – a lot of letters to AAM from people with partners on active duty write to ask how to explain multiple short stints on their resumes so that’s what I was going off of.
      Also think about what several months of lost income looks like if you have issues finding a job at this or the next assignment because you are looking for something equal to or greater than the last job. Cost of living is big too – is the new assignment location a lower cost of living area where the pay cut would equal out due to less expensive general costs? Or is the new area more expensive so everything would be double the cost. Factor that into your commute calculation too.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for the input. We’re fortunate that money isn’t the end all, be all in the decision. Continuity of employment (particularly employment with access to 401ks/retirement plans) is more important to our long-term financial goals than me making as much money as possible wherever we go, which is why I’m considering changing tracks.

    11. Kix*

      Another thing to factor is that I believe you have hiring preference as the spouse of active duty military at the base where the job is located.

    12. texpat*

      My partner is at the beginning of a career in federal govt jobs. Benefits to him: the cheap healthcare is great, he accrues a ton of sick time (and it’s accepted in his office that occasionally people use sick time because they need to go do things during business hours that aren’t medical-related or just don’t want to come in the day after coming back from travel, stuff like that, so he can actually use that for last-minute issues), he’ll continue to earn time towards his pension years even if we move and he switches jobs (within his current agency or if he switches to a new agency), he knows that he will continue to get raises periodically based on the GS levels, and his office is very flexible for telecommuting–everyone works from home 2 days per week. Basically, there are some short-term benefits like telecommuting and cheap healthcare, and some career benefits, like he has more flexibility to switch jobs, even fairly dramatically, while building tenure with the “company.”

      Downsides: Getting a promotion is very difficult/there’s a lot of red tape, and he doesn’t know yet in practice if it’s easier to get hired for another govt job after you’ve had this one.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for the input. Healthcare isn’t really a concern for me (as I’m on my husband’s plan), but all those other benefits are definitely making me lean towards attempting to make the change.

    13. Policy Wonk*

      The military has programs for spousal employment that can give you a leg up on getting a job on base. If the job requires a security clearance those programs often allow you to hold on to the clearance between posts, so you will have an advantage in hiring at his next post as well. If you remain in the United States working off-base is often doable, but if your spouse is posted overseas the track record of government employment and the bonus of having a clearance will be a definite advantage in getting a job at that post.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for your input. For better or worse, my spouse’s career field isn’t likely to take us out of the US, but it’s good to have that option just in case.

    14. Senor Montoya*

      My sister works for the federal court system. She has a lot of health problems and her partner is a freelance artist with health problems — her health insurance is stellar, her partner is covered, and they could NEVER afford premiums on insurance even half as good, they could not afford the out of pocket expenses…she figured the insurance alone is worth over $20K annually in premiums and out of pocket. Once she retires (in 8 years) she has an excellent pension and health insurance, and will then work part time at something she likes.
      Our family was deeply relieved when she got that job.
      You can put a $ value on the insurance and on the pension/retirement, commuting costs, housing costs. Possibly other costs such as housing, being able to use the commissary? ask your acquaintance about it.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for the input. I already have many of those benefits (insurance, housing, commissary permissions) from my spouse’s AD job, regardless of if I make the switch. The pension, however, is something I could quantify.

    15. Stornry*

      local gov’t HR here — a quick glance at our salaries and benefits budget for my department shows that the benefits are just about equal to the salary; so, there’s s quick and dirty monetary equivalent. for me, it’s not just the job security but the pension. thanks to the retirement plan and deferred comp, I’m looking at a comfortably-funded retirement much earlier than my parents could achieve under social security alone.

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for your input. The option for comfortable, early retirement is something that is important to us, which is why my spouse is aiming to stay in for the full 20. We’ve discussed and worked my retirement accounts to align with those goals, but that’s definitely something we’re heavily weighing.

    16. Kiwiii*

      As a previous state employee, my favoirte things were the amount of PTO (2.5 weeks + holidays + 3.5 “personal holiday” days + 2-3 weeks sick leave as a new employee) and the employer-matched 6.5% retirement fund. A good commute helps a lot in ways you don’t realize, too. And once you’ve done government work it’s much easier to get another government job, though not necessarily actually easy.

      As for the $$$, it won’t be great, but it might be worth considering like. Cost of living in the area and things.

      If your non-profit job is flexible, could you do it remotely?

      1. michelle*

        Thanks for your input. The telework option could exist, but I’m not sure I want to pursue it (or at least, pursue it exclusively). I think my sanity through relocating like this (every 3-5 years, at a maximum) will rely on being able to leave the house and having consistent social interaction with coworkers.

        The PTO is definitely something we value – vacation time is our only real sticking point with my job now, as he has a ton of it, and I accrue at what feels like a snail’s pace in comparison. My current industry doesn’t lend itself to having a separate holiday bank, so that alone would be a huge, positive change. Access to good retirement account options is also important, even moreso in our specific situation than maxing my income potential.

    17. Mama Bear*

      Another benefit to a fed job is that your time in office can accrue at different agencies. My spouse has worked for at least 4 agencies, but it all counts toward his time of service for retirement, benefits, leave, etc. That might be handy since your spouse is likely to be moved again. Many people I know take a pay cut to get into federal service for the stability and benefits. Obviously choose your agency carefully (the IRS is frequently used as a scapegoat and keeps getting budget cuts), but it may be a good option for your household in the long run. Like any other job, it is unlikely to hurt to put your hat in the ring and see what comes of it.

    18. TimeTravlR*

      For a military spouse, one of the best benefits might be the potential for moving from one position to another as your active duty spouse is transferred. Not always a give, but if you’re in accounting/finance, it’s probably a very high chance you could get something at the new location without a break in your service. If you decide to ultimately go back to the private sector, such as when he separates or retires, that’s always on the table too.

    19. Venus*

      A few thoughts:
      Government jobs in my part of the world tend to have reliable yearly raises (cost of living as well as performance-based) so the starting salary might be substantially lower than what you might expect to make a few years later. This may not be true for you, but the info should be easily available if you are in an interview.

      With lower salaries I find that it becomes much more tolerable if the people are good. My suggestion would be to apply to government and local, and see what you get for a response. If you only get one or the other with openings then it’s an easy answer.

      I have known military spouses who worked for the government because they were prioritized in hirings at each move. Hopefully that would be an option for you too, as that reliability was a big factor for them.

      Good luck!

      1. Venus*

        I was thinking that – if you are keen to think this way – you can put a monetary value on that reliability of employment. If you think it would take you 6 months, or more or less, before you found another job, then those months of unemployment would subtract at each move from your higher salary. Also, would you spend a lot more time looking for a job before each move? How much of your time would it take?

        I don’t know if I would bother thinking about it this way, but I mention it as an option. People who rent out their homes think this way, because if you price the place a bit lower then you get less money per month but you also don’t have it sit empty and losing money, so there is a balance with that calculation. It’s harder for you, but it is a concept to consider.

    20. Fikly*

      It takes some math, but a shorter commute can usually be quantified monetarily. First there’s the time = money thought. Second, what is the actual cost of the commute. If car, think of both gas and wear and tear on the car (there are website that calculate this). You can do this with mass transit too.

    21. quintk*

      One thing to think about is whether, and how much, pressure there is to work overtime. I do not work for government but I do work for the defense industry. For most of my colleagues, the salaries are lower than what we could get doing the same thing at a non-defense job. But, with few exceptions, I’ve experienced very little pressure to work overtime and am not expected to respond to emails or calls after hours, so the pay I get is for 40-45 hours a week, not for 60+ hours a week. I don’t think the government guys I have contact with work a lot of overtime either, but I could be wrong. It is just one more factor which may (or may not) balance lower salaries.

      Also, my humble opinion is commute time has a HUGE impact on quality of life.

  5. Hazy days*

    Job shares!

    I’m planning to propose turning my current full time role into a job share – has anyone previously gone through this process? Do you have advice to share on what works and what doesn’t? Thank you!

    1. Zephy*

      What is a “job share,” exactly? I’m not familiar with the term. Is it basically turning one FT role into 2 or more PT ones with schedules that don’t overlap? And if so, what makes “job sharing” different from just being changed to PT and hiring someone to cover the days/shifts that you don’t, are there benefits involved?

      1. College Career Counselor*

        It means two (or more) people split the hours of a job. This often saves the employer money because they don’t have to offer health benefits (or they offer pro-rated health benefits). The work schedules may or may not overlap. Can also be nice for people who are family caregivers, or who can’t or don’t want to work 40+ hours/week. The downside is that you have to know when your co-worker is around (what days they leave early) for scheduling purposes, and sometimes the people who work full time get asked to do more because “X isn’t here on Thursdays” or whatever. Of course, sometimes the job sharer gets expected to cram 40 hours worth of work into 28 hours (and only paid for 28).

      2. Hazy days*

        The connotation is often around senior roles where there needs to be full time coverage and oversight of the issues – so it’s one role, but the face doing that role is different on different days. The idea is that you keep people at senior levels by offering part-time opportunities that wouldn’t otherwise be available. Both people ought to be able to deal with all the job, but you might lead on different areas.
        It might be that one person does Mon-Weds, and one Weds-Fri, with handover on Weds.
        So there shouldn’t be a loss of effectiveness from the role – there are higher costs for in the UK, but you get two people’s experience and insight, vacation coverage, two people’s energy in the role, etc. It shouldn’t mean that other roles are asked to do more, because it’s still a full time role.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      I was actually hired for my current role for a situation like this. My coworker wanted to go part time and an entry level person was leaving. They combined the entry level role with a lot of the part time person’s duties to make a higher level role that I was hired in for. Its worked out well since the part timer is still here for backup and vacations. She will sometimes work an extra few hours here and there in order to build up some flex time since she now accrued PTO at a lower rate.

    3. OperaArt*

      According to a friend who did this (two people doing one mid-level admin role), the keys were teamwork and rigorous communication. It worked great for her.

    4. Doug Judy*

      Two of my coworkers did it. Both were full time and had the same role already and both wanted to go part time for different reasons. They both were also good employees so that helped their case. They job shared and then the boss hired someone FT sice they needed the equivalent of 80 hours a week in that position. Coworkers each did 20 a week and the new hire 40.

    5. quirkypants*

      As a manager, my willingness and ability to approve this would depend a lot on the role.

      Not every role can easily be handed off between two people. Customer service Jobs are quite easy to hand off but project based jobs or strategy roles in a fast paced office can be harder. I might begrudge time spent to constantly bring the other person up to speed so the other person can be ready to handle issues in your absence.

      Is this an easy to hire for role? Is this a role where I’m likely to find people willing to work part time? (I’ve always found it more challenging to recruit part time staff and also had higher turnover as some have taken the role when they really preferred to work full time so took the role on a temporary basis).

      Think about, and be prepared to discuss all the ways this might benefit the employer and strategies to deal with any issues your boss might have. Be forewarned, this will be an easier sell if you’re a very valued and high performing employee. BUT even if you are it could still give your employer pause if they don’t believe they can find an equally amazing person to share your role.

      Job sharing has worked really well for a couple friends of mine. I wish you luck!!

  6. AnonToday!*

    Just offered wild opportunity- do I take it?
    Short version – A woman I just met a week ago asked me if I wanted a job managing one of her small businesses. She knows that I’ve only been in this field for a couple of months, though I am planning to get more education so I can continue in it. The job would give me a real hands on education and she would give me access to all the training she’s gotten for her staff. I’d also have to move & she has a place I could stay temporarily. Do I take the job?

    Long version:
    I’m changing careers, after having been out of work for over 2.5 years due to mental health stuff. Once I started thinking about going back to work, I realized I couldn’t do what I had been & not get sick again. Even more, I couldn’t go back to working in the city & commuting every day.

    The career I came up with has two things that are necessary for me – it’s needed everywhere and the schedule can be more flexible. The closest equivalent I can think of, while remaining anonymous, is working as an assistant in a daycare & planning to become a licensed early education teacher.

    And what she’s offering me would be like me becoming the manager of her daycare. But in the actual field, generally people do start their own businesses, so learning how to manage her business would be a huge asset, beyond all the other training she gives her staff.

    She also mentioned possibly selling it to me in a few years. It’s not a field she really has an interest in running. She heard a lot of the customers in her main business asking for this service. But there weren’t any places she felt comfortable referring them to, so last summer she started her own.

    The location is only about 2 hours from where I live now. It’s a beautiful area with lots of outdoor activities, but not much else. It’s very rural & I’ve always lived near at least a small city. I think I’d like it, but I could also be romanticizing it.

    I don’t particularly like where I’m living now, especially as I had to move back in with my parents over the summer. Which was mostly fine while they were away for 95% of the summer/early fall. But they’re going to be back here full time soon. And beyond them being home most of the time, as my father’s retired & mother’s a homemaker, they take care of my twin 3 year old nieces 3 days a week. I’ll go back to being a guest in someone else’s home, with no autonomy over any of it. And I imagine it will be loud.

    If I take the job, there’s a sort of apartment attached to the facility which I could stay in for free. But would that mean I’d essentially be on call all the time? Unlike a kid daycare, it’s open 24/7. Though she said that I could stay there as long as I wanted, she also me ruined that she knows the owner of the apartment building next door to the facility & he usually has vacancies for a decent price. And buying a house in that area is a lot cheaper than where I am now.

    I tried to make this as coherent as possible & those are the big things that have come up when thinking about it (since she offered me the job Wednesday). I am luckily going to see my therapist today (Friday), before going up to meet her again – partly for something different but also to talk about this more.

    Oh, two more things that I need to consider: 1)health stuff – insurance, since I’d be moving to a new state, finding a new therapist & a doctor to prescribe meds. 2) moving will mean that I’ll be able to do the one thing that I know will help my mental health – get a dog. I’ll be able to where I am now, but it will take awhile & be overall more difficult.

    What do I do? Am I missing any things I should be considering? (I have a whole list of questions to ask her but I’m sure I’m forgetting something!)

      1. AnonToday!*

        Yeah, that’s what my therapist & I decided… I just keep thinking it’s too good to be true. Or that I’m being impulsive (I have ADHD so sometimes I jump without thinking about reality instead of just my expectations) and missing something major that I should think or ask about.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Impulsive isn’t a bad thing necessarily! That can do a lot of good for your career in the end at times. I would just make sure you have a fall-back plan in place in the even that you get there and it turns into a big ol’ do-not-want! I am assuming you could go back home and 2 hours away isn’t a huge moving expense. I would think about moving in ‘waves’ so that you don’t just take all your stuff with you in one jump. Give it a little time to settle in before bringing all your stuff over if you have storage options, I’m assuming that your parents are okay with it of course which may or may not be the case.

          1. Senor Montoya*

            Agreed. I’d think that you might have limited options for health care and other employment in a rural area? That depends on where it is, perhaps a larger town is within a reasonable commute.
            (BTW, The Man Becky Lynch, I always look for your comments! and love the name)

    2. Yorick*

      In a rural area, being able to find a new therapist and doctor might be a big deal. Do some research on that to help you decide.

      I’d also think about whether you’ll be able to/able to afford moving back if you end up hating the job. Would quitting put you in a worse spot than you’re in now?

      Besides those things, it sounds like a good opportunity that you might as well try out.

      1. Mid*

        Yup. That’s my only concern with this. Unless you’re willing to drive a fair distance, or have digital therapy (phone, video, etc), you might struggle more than anticipated. Or there might be only one or two options for a therapist, and they might not work well for your needs. (In my small rural hometown, there is one therapist, and she tries to be a jack of all trades kinda lady, and is very lovely, but really isn’t that great with youth, and is best at divorce/adult relationships/career things rather than chronic mental illnesses. I had to find a therapist elsewhere to get the help I needed.)

        OP could see if her current therapist would be willing and able to do digital sessions! Or a combination of digital and in-person (meeting once a month in person and having the rest of the weekly sessions digitally)

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Well if you’re going to be running the business, you will be “on call” in some fashion even if you’re not attached to the building. It may be nice to be so close so you don’t have to worry about scurrying to get there if something happens at an odd hour. I have a person in my life that lived above work for awhile, it worked out fine enough for him but yeah, you’re there a lot and that’s a thing you need to be comfortable with, especially as the manager.

      So I would take into consideration how much time it’s going to take you and how much you’ll invest in working. Is she putting you on salary? Make sure you check how much you’ll make if you’re working over 40 hours to feel better about your compensation package there. That’s crucial. Think about working at least 50 hour weeks to start and how that shakes out salary wise!

      Also do some research about the area and go visit it if possible. Rural areas are…great if you like being alone in the world. They’re also pretty prickly towards outsiders sometimes. So it takes longer to really sit down your roots if you want to stay there long term and don’t have it in you to travel to see your family and friends 2hrs away! This is just from my own personal experience with rural life and my preference for cities, so take that with a grain of salt.

      In general, this sounds like a fantastic opportunity and I’d jump at it but I’m a hermit and a workaholic. This is right up my ally of what I personally do, so I wouldn’t flinch.

      Have you researched this lady’s businesses? To see what their reviews look like? How much is she involved? I would ask to look at her financials and to get a sense of what your cash flow and operating expenses/overhead looks like to get a picture of the heavy lifting on that side of the business you’ll be dealing with along with knowing her financial security in the place. I would hate that this is a precarious small business on the verge of closure and you move to find this out and have to re-relocate back to your folks! If she wants you to run the business like this, she shouldn’t flinch at wanting to know these important details. If she flinches, then she doesn’t want you to really run it in a traditional sense.

      2. Mid*

        I would also worry about work-life balance with mental health.

        As someone with mental health issues, I like to throw myself into work, and then I’ll burn out and not recognize it until it’s too late. This is my personal experience though, and OP’s MMV.

        I’d ask about coverage, so OP can make sure they can take days off, and be truly off. And working hours. And realize that if the current owner says they do 60 hours a week, they likely do 70+, because there’s probably more time going into things than they realize. I thought I was doing 50 hours weeks for a while, and it was closer to 65, plus the brain space that was taken up by work even when off the clock.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          This is good to think about as well.

          It depends on each person’s mental health.

          Mine is the opposite. My mental health suffers drastically if I’m not working and I have no interest in real time off in most cases. It really matters that my authority is firmly in place, I’m not constantly navigating getting permissions or having to deal with people who tell me to make decisions…then getting mad at my decisions.

      3. annony*

        Also, if getting a dog is important to you, make sure that you would be allowed to have one in that apartment.

    4. Diahann Carroll*

      Is this a job that is recession proof? That would be my main concern at this point. It sounds like this business was started by someone with no real passion for it, so if the economy takes a nosedive sometime next year, will the owner keep this business open or will she close it to save money?

    5. Sleepy*

      To me, the biggest issue may be that you planned to go into one field for your mental health, and you are now looking at something totally different. To use the examples you gave, there is a huge difference between working as a daycare assistant and managing a daycare business. One comes with a lot more potential stresses and demands on your time, and I would assume it would come with more potential mental health triggers than the other.

      However, your mental health triggers are unique to you, so only you know whether you’ll face more of them in one role than another. It’s great that you’ll have a chance to explore this with your therapist.

      Good luck!

    6. Purt's Peas*

      This sounds like a cool opportunity! Two things that come to mind are making sure you have support, and making sure you’re not stuck in the rural area if this falls through.

      Support being: professional support from her since this is a big step up of a job, and personal support from a therapist, friend circle, etc. For the personal support, just making sure you’ll feel ok about the remote-ness and feel prepared to start anew.

      For making sure you’re not stuck…it’s notoriously hard to find jobs in rural areas. Would your parents be able to help you to move back if you need, are there other job options in the area, would this be enough of a resume boost that it’s worth it?

    7. CAA*

      From what I can discern, I think you should go for it. What’s the worst that could happen and what would you do if it did? Suppose you hate it there, decide you hate the work/business, or find out the owner is an insane micromanager? It sounds like you could quit and return to your parents house where you’d be in the same situation you’ll be in if you do nothing. So why not try?

      It’s a small business, so I assume you’ll be on ACA for health care. You can check in advance what kinds of plans are offered in that area and what providers are on them. There’s no penalty for moving back and forth between states, even multiple times per year. You just enroll in the new state’s plan when you get there.

      Don’t get a dog on day 1 though. Give yourself at least two months to settle in and get a feel for the place and the job before you add a pet into the mix.

    8. Joielle*

      This reminds me of a job my husband was offered a few years ago – running an assisted care facility for people with dementia. He ended up not taking it because the pay wasn’t high enough to justify being on call 24/7. It would have been a great career move and worth the temporary low pay (and never seeing each other) if he really wanted to get into the industry and own a facility someday, but since he wasn’t super invested in the work, he decided to take his career in a different direction.

      In your case, though, it sounds like it would make a lot more sense! It IS the industry you’re interested in, it could be a good change of pace, and living near the facility might actually be a bonus. I agree with Yorick that you should think about what you’d do if it turns out to be a bust – can you move back in with your parents if necessary?

    9. cmcinnyc*

      I’m going to be the nay-sayer on this thread, sorry. This woman is jumping in to giving you a job, a place to stay, and talking about selling you her business. You say you “just met a week ago” but it’s not clear that the context was a job interview. It sounds like someone you met socially. If it WAS a job interview, and one week later this woman is offering someone new to the field a job, a home, and potentially a business deal… why? Is she having a lot of trouble finding someone? Why? Is it the location? Is the business in trouble? Is it her?

      This could be a great opportunity but I would talk a big step back for a minute and take a cold, cold look at the situation.

      1. Forkeater*

        I’m with you, it sounds fishy to me. You just met her a week ago and she expects you to move and be on call 24 hours. First of all she should do way more screening of you, but secondly you really need to ask around about her. We hear so many horror stories of nightmare small businesses and their owners. I’m seeing a lot of red flags.

      2. MissGirl*

        Yeah, especially where you’d be moving and your housing is tied to the woman. Why you when you have no experience? Are you going to be set up to succeed? What does success look like? Running your own business is a huge responsibility with lots of hours. What about your last job negatively affected your mental health? Do you have interest in business and not just the type of business?

        For instance my friend loves books and publishing so she took out a loan and opened a bookstore. It lasted three months because, while she knew books, she knew nothing about running a business. There wasn’t time for her to learn on the job.

        Verify the woman and the business. Ask for financial statements, talk to the clientele. If you do move forward, get a contract with a lawyer.

        1. annony*

          Definitely have a conversation about training. Will there be any or are you just expected to figure it out. Also, make sure you are not being put in a position where you have all the responsibility but no power.

      3. Persephone Mulberry*

        This. The speed that all this is happening, and the tenuous connection to your potential new boss, gave me a BIG pause right up front. I would give serious consideration to cmcinnyc and The Man Becky Lynch’s comments.

      4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Sadly it’s on par for casual business owners, those who buy-in to businesses that they think are just going to be their little cash-cows. So I’m not too shocked by the behavior itself.

        Which is why I suggest really digging into the business itself and feeling it out. It sounds like a franchisee setup to me. Which is easy to get sucked into and having zero passion. They change hands all the GD time. People think they’re easy because they come pre-prepared for you…they forget about the fact you have to actually run them or find people to run them. Throwing people at them, hoping they stick is pretty standard procedure for those with limited business skills.

      5. TCO*

        Yeah, I’m also surprised that so many people are enthusiastic about this idea. It’s easy for what feels like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be so exciting that you overlook a lot of potential risks. I see a lot of them here.

        Alison has written extensively about the unique challenges of working for very small family businesses with essentially one boss above you and no one else. If things get hard, as they probably will in a challenging 24/7 business with what sounds like some kind of vulnerable client base, there’s no one else to help you, no one to appeal to if you boss mistreats you.

        The idea of being in charge of a 24/7 business, living on site, again with vulnerable clients (right? this isn’t like an emergency plumbing business or something) sounds like a nightmare for most people. It doesn’t sound likely to facilitate a good work/life balance and low stress. And that rural area won’t be peaceful at all if your staff/clients are knocking on your door literally any time of night or day.

        Also, buying the business down the road isn’t easy. You would need financing and you would need to demonstrate that the business is reliably profitable and well-run. And then 100% of the burden of operating that business and meeting all of the needs is on you. Your duties, even now as manager, are likely to be heavy on administration and light on the service you actually wanted to do in your new career.

        I think you’re taking a lot of financial risk here to move away from your free housing and your support system to take a challenging and risky job. Maybe it’s worth it, but I’d encourage you to really listen to what your therapist and loved ones have to say before making your decision.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Meanwhile, small businesses thrive and aren’t all a bunch of beehives of angry bees. So really it’s about doing your due diligence and having a safety plan to remove yourself from the situation if necessary.

          Some of us have built our entire careers in the small business world and have seen very few really abusive nonsensical setups come to light. It’s all about knowing your own skills and boundaries in the end.

          It’s crucial to go in with open eyes but to just swat it down isn’t ideal either. You don’t become a business owner without a huge amount of risk, no matter what the setup or buy out is. Every business is a risk, every job is a risk. It’s about analyzing the risks and knowing yourself, what you’re capable of and what your life goals are in the end.

      6. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Yes this sounds incredibly shady. All of your spidey senses should be tingling. This is weird.

        Also, why does she need to sweeten the pot this much to hire someone? Does she have a poor local reputation and no one wants to work for her, and she’s looking for a naive outsider to trap?

      7. WellRed*

        Yes, I’m surprised at all the “go for it” comments. This woman doesn’t know you from a hole in the wall, wants to give you this job AND an apartment? Sounds like she’ll own your life, even if she turns out to be otherwise OK to work for. Definitely don’t plan on a dog until you see what the hours are like.

      8. CM*

        +1 I’m suspicious of this helpful stranger. She’s making a lot of vague promises about how she can give you everything you dreamed of way more easily than you expected to get it while also manoeuvring you into a situation where you’re extremely dependant on her. Plus it sounds like you’re in a vulnerable place with your mental health and living situation, which is when these people strike.

        If she WERE legit… what would her motivation be to make such huge commitments to a stranger? Why would she be so invested in helping you?

      9. Cartographical*

        Yes, I completely agree with this concern. This isn’t just a job offer, it’s a whole relationship outside of work as well. It’s like a marriage, almost. You met a week ago and suddenly you’re entangled in this woman’s life plans? Are you going to be beholden to her desire to retire if you don’t like the work? This is not someone with great boundaries — or it’s someone without great communications skills. Neither is good.

        This sounds like care home work and it’s a very fraught industry. Working for someone who isn’t invested and devoted to the facility, being the person there 24/7, is going to make taking care of your mental health very difficult. You’ll be responsible and she can just… not show up? Ask you to take a cut in pay when money is tight (and you wouldn’t want the clients to suffer, right)?

        I would disentangle yourself from her for a couple weeks at least if possible. If she accepts the boundary, maybe you can have some further conversation. But this is all a red flag to me.

    10. The Ace Tomato Company*

      I was once in a similar situation and realized at some point that the woman that owned the business had some pretty serious issues, then I realized that my whole job and living situation were under her control. So just make sure that you have support (family, friends) or an exit strategy if needed. And yay on getting a dog! But I agree with someone else that said to wait a bit before you get one. Good Luck!!

    11. AnonToday!*

      Thanks all for so many great comments! I don’t have time right now to reply to each, but wanted to add a couple of things (and I think this is far enough down to not worry about anyone involved seeing this!). The business is a dog daycare & boarding facility, & the way I met this woman was because she has a dog that I’m considering adopting – so the dog thing is built in! I’m going to be studying to be a trainer and am working in a dog daycare now.

      I can just go back to my parents if it doesn’t work out, and I’ll probably be paying rent there soon if I stay, so this housing will be cheaper than staying. But I am a little worried about the living situation- I’ll have to get a full tour next time I go there.

      And thanks especially for the suggestion from the Man, Becky Lynch to get a clear picture of the finances of the business. I’ve never really worked for a small business before & didn’t even think of that.

      I’ve looked at some therapists & there are some options not too far away, plus I might be able to stay with my current one just not as regularly (though at the moment, it’s sometimes weeks between appointments because she gets booked fast & I can only schedule a few at a time).

      Will add more later!

      1. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

        I’d also recommend doing some research into the business’ safety measures for the pets and the employees (and what the industry standards are), check out the insurance coverage, and look into legal issues with boarding animals.

        Think worst case scenario – what happens if an animal is hurt, gets sick, or dies while in your care? (Because this happens no matter how awesome the facility.) What happens if an employee is injured? (Ditto.) Does the business have an existing relationship with a veterinarian or clinic in case of emergency?

        I’d also have a lawyer review your boarding contract, even if your contact tells you that has already been done.

        Most of this is advice more geared toward someone looking to buy the business – but I think it would be good to look into this regardless, if you will be managing it.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials makes excellent suggestions and I echo that as well.

        When you’re dealing with something that involves being in care of anything that’s alive, you want to really dig into the regulations and insurance coverage. Along with their processes.

        I work with safety regulations and was tossed in head first in a lot of ways, that sucks and thankfully it’s just adult human safety and adult humans typically talk at least a little. But when you’re dealing with animals or children, you have to be even more diligent about these things I say.

        This isn’t to scare you because honestly, it’s doable by many people out there. You just need to be aware that these things exist and to be knowledgeable about the specific business. Leave no stone unturned.

        It makes me feel better knowing how you met this person though it’s still a little weird that she’s jumping out of the gates with “oh and I have a great opportunity for you!” but meh, I know a lot of eccentric business owners [really, the majority of business leadership high enough up is very much cut from their own cloth]. So be ready to deal with a bit of a weirdo and have boundaries but again, eyes open, analyze the risks. Trust your gut.

    12. LilySparrow*

      It’s worth exploring, but you should not take it without doing a lot more due diligence on this person, the role, the business, and the general area you’d be living.

      I’m very concerned about a business owner who offers a management job to someone they met socially after knowing them such a short period of time. Especially someone with no prior experience in the job or the industry.

      This makes me suspect that the business is not well-planned or well run, and may have high turnover, financial problems, and/or other serious issues.

      Moving like this would be seriously putting all your eggs in one basket. And you don’t know how strong the basket is. And a stranger is holding the basket.

      She may be totally awesome, and this opportunity is an incredibly rare fluke of perfect timing.

      Or she may be shady, and runs her business by exploiting inexperienced people that she can overwork, underpay, generally screw over and toss aside.

      Or (statistically the most likely situation) she could be flaky and not entirely competent, who creates messes and chaos with the best of intentions. There are more of these folks in the world than the other two put together. They mean well. But you don’t want to be dependent on them for your livelihood, your housing, and your entire personal network in a new town.

      Ask a lot of questions – not from her, from other people. Don’t settle for vague answers. Get all agreements in writing. See everything with your own eyes (especially the housing) before you commit.

      If anything fails the smell test, or you can’t get straight answers, say “thanks but no thanks.”

    13. Not So Little My*

      Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I’m really paranoid any time anything starts out with “someone I just met offered me an opportunity”. Especially since you don’t have a lot of background in this field and would be dependent on her both for training to learn how to do your job and for housing as well. I’m afraid that she is trying to take advantage of your inexperience and of other vulnerabilities she might be perceiving in you. Please make sure that you are protecting yourself emotionally and financially and that you are not going to become trapped in a precarious situation.

    14. EJane*

      I had a similar situation! Sort of. I was laid off this time last year, which was the last straw after three progressively harder years of declining income, temping, and worsening mental health. I had a massive nervous breakdown; I ended up moving home for six weeks, and spent about four of them on the floor in front of my parents’ fireplace.

      I got connected with a job opening via an old friend’s boyfriend, and ended up leaving my big, glamorous city for a tiny college town. It wasn’t easy–I was barely functional; my mom visited me every other week for about six months to make sure I was eating/my apartment was clean/I was doing okay emotionally; I was having panic attacks at work regularly–but I’m now healthier than I was in a very, very long time.

      I was worried about the move–I’d defined myself as a “big city” person for a while–but it ended up being one of the best things I could have done, and my job has morphed into a technical writing position that exactly fits my interests–and areas where I need to grow, too.

      Couple pieces of advice:
      1. I strongly recommend looking into online therapy resources. I use betterhelp and communicate with my therapist over text multiple times a week. I used to be a big proponent of traditional therapy, but it really, really worked for me.
      2. Give yourself a good window of time to find a new doctor by asking your current doctor to write a new rx for 90 days of your meds, ideally with 1 or 2 refills, and forward it to an online pharmacy like honeybeehealth. That will get you through the open enrollment period for the public insurance exchange and give you a solid window of time to find a doctor you like.
      3. EYYYY DOGGO
      I’m biased because I have a service dog, but I’m super pumped for you to get a dog and reap the benefits. Furry friends are best friends.

      tl;dr GO FOR IT

    15. Emilitron*

      To be the downsider… There are a lot of real cases in which this could be great, and I’m not saying it isn’t in one of those realities. But there’s another type of scenario in which this isn’t as awesome as it looks. You’ve met this person once, and she offers you a major job with a lot of responsibility, basically on the spot, and I can’t quite tell if this came up socially, or through a professional network, or if there was kind of a job discussion in which you handed her a resume. I have known people who were amazingly charismatic, you’d definitely enjoy meeting them; and they’re very dynamic, always exciting projects on the horizon, you’d definitely want to be involved in things they were planning; and very capable, you can tell they’re not just making crap up and talking nonsense, this is their income and they seem serious; yet somehow they’ve got no staying power. They’ve got a huge list of spectacular projects in their past that were neither failures nor ringing successes, which just sort of lost momentum because they got distracted by something else shiny; and they’ve got a lot of former business partners, because they start a project and hand it off to somebody else when it gets boring; and somehow very few of those former business partners are on really good terms any more and have a lowish opinion of this person, who is a great dynamic project-started and a terrible business partner. Writing this out it sounds like I’m on a rant or personal vendetta, and I swear I’m not – it’s a social/business pattern that I’ve seen play out a couple of different times with a couple of different people who fit a vaguely similar mold, and I bring up this cautionary tale because your story about your new friend sounds (in a brief description) like that dynamic I’ve seen before.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Well said. I know exactly the type of person you’re talking about – I’ve met my share, too, but you expressed it better than I did.

  7. BECkey*

    One of my coworkers keeps trying to “helpfully” take over the projects I’ve been assigned, when they can’t even complete their own work. Like yeah, I’m getting shiny, interesting stuff to do; it’s because I finished the boring work quickly and to a high standard, while you’ve been working on it for weeks and are still producing mediocre content.

    I’m worried bringing it up seriously would come across as being overly possessive or controlling of my work, so I just quietly stew in annoyance. It feels petty to be so bothered by this, and I know I should take the high road and let my work speak for itself. Ugh.

      1. BECkey*

        We do have the same manager, who has reprimanded them for getting off-task before, but that seems to address the individual problem, not the pattern. (Which Alison talked very eloquently about earlier this week!) It feels like bringing this up to my manager would be akin to telling my manager how to do their job, somehow; if they don’t think it’s a larger performance issue, who am I to say it is? Maybe they’re handling it, and I’m just not privy to the process? (Rightfully so!)

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Bring it up to your manager. You’re not telling her how to do her job if you say that you realize that she spoke to your coworker about this before, but also realize that the coworker probably didn’t interpret that conversation to be apart of a broader theme of her not butting in on your work at all, and it would be very helpful if the three of you could have a quick team meeting where she (the manager) explains the exact breakdown of who gets what and how requests for help will come directly from her moving forward.

        2. OtterB*

          It seems to me you could bring up the pattern to your manager. It’s true they may be handling it without you seeing, but it’s also true that you may be seeing more of a pattern than they do. The next time it comes up I’d use a script like, “I’m concerned that Coworker has a pattern of getting overinvolved with projects that are assigned to me. I want to make sure the lines of responsibility are clear, and also I’m excited about working on Project X and don’t want to miss out on it.”

        3. SarahKay*

          Could you go back to your manager and say something like “I’m really grateful that you’ve dealt with individual instances of co-worker getting off-task before, but they’re still doing it and it’s starting to feel like a real pattern here. Would you be able to address it with them again?”
          That way you’re not directly telling your manager to address the pattern, but you are making it clear to them that there is a pattern there to be addressed.
          Also, good luck!

        4. Bagpuss*

          Have you specifically spoken to the coworker about the pattern? While I think you would be fine to go back to your manager and explain that unfortunately their first conversation with coworker doesn’t appear to have worked as the coworker is still behaving in the same way with different projects, and ask if they can speak to her again about the pattern of behaviour, I think it would alos be OK for you to speak to your coworker directly, give specifc examples and say that you need for her to not try to take on any work that has been assigned to you unless you explicitly ask for her help.

        5. cleo*

          What about asking your manager for advice or help? Ask them how they want you to deal with this ongoing pattern.

        6. gsa*

          Repeat after me..

          “No thank you, I don’t need your help.”

          “No thank you, I don’t need your help.”

          “No thank you, I don’t need your help.”

          When your manager asks,

          “No thank you, I don’t need any help now, I will let you know when I do.”

          “No thank you, I don’t need any help now, I will let you know when I do.”

          “No thank you, I don’t need any help now, I will let you know when I do.”

          Good luck,

          gaa

    2. FallingSlowly*

      Ugh, the office magpie!

      Have they been succeeding in taking over the projects they’ve gone after, or is it more like they keep trying and you have to fend them off?

      1. BECkey*

        Really just fending them off. As I mentioned above, it feels like our mutual manager is aware of the issue, and I don’t think I’m in danger of losing projects. It feels more like swatting a kids hand away from the candy jar. (Topical!)

    3. Senor Montoya*

      “overly possessive or controlling of my work” — why *shouldn’t* you be “possessive” of your work? It’s your work! presumably assigned to you by your manager. Does your manager think your co-worker “helping” is a good idea? What happens if you let co-irker “help” and it goes poorly? who’s going to be held responsible? what happens if the “help” is non-existent, you get it done well, and then co-irker claims to have assisted?

      BTDT. You can start by putting up boundaries with a nice tone of voice: Oh, Griselda, thanks for the offer, but I’ve got it under control! Hey, Griselda, I appreciate that you wanted to help, but I had already planned/done X, so it wasn’t necessary at all.

      Absolutely do NOT just “take the high road and let my work speak for itself” — you must address this or you (you, not Griselda) is going to get in hot water.

      BTDT. Address it and do it right away. If Griselda pushes back or continues to “help”, take it to your manager. In fact, I’d let my manager know even if Griselda says she’ll stop; loop manager in with a matter-of-fact summary of the problem and the conversation.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Have a conversation with your boss. It sounds to me like your co-worker finds the “boring work”, well, boring… and wants to usurp the interesting parts of your own job in its place. Your mutual manager needs to shut that down.

  8. indigo64*

    Does anyone have any experience working as salaried temp?

    My husband has worked with a reputable temp agency in the past and had a very good experience. He’s currently interviewing for a salaried position with the agency- set paycheck, full benefits, with 2-3 placements a year. Placements could be up to a year long, but most are 3-4 months. He’s excited about getting diverse experience in the field and beefing up his resume. I have a lot of reservations about him changing jobs so frequently and not being able to put down roots. He also hasn’t gotten any details on the salary or benefits yet (and I’m concerned those won’t be competitive).

    What are the pros and cons with this arrangement? Did you feel like it was a good career move?

    1. Brett*

      Which industry? Salaried temp work varies widely from industry to industry.
      In IT, the salary tends to be very good (some of the best in the industry) but the benefits non-existent. The work is normally pretty interesting and the job hopping is not much of an issue. It is common to end up getting offers from the client to hire on full-time; though many people don’t take it because the full time jobs are a pay cut over the temp jobs. The instability can be a problem though, and you functionally apply for a new job with interviews etc every time you move to a new client.
      But that is only the IT industry. Other industries can be very different.

    2. Natalie*

      I haven’t done it myself but I worked closely with a salaried temp we had for many months (accounting). She really liked it. The pay and benefits were comparable to other staff accountant type positions. As far as career benefits, she wasn’t really in a growth phase in her career and had chosen the salaried temp position for the variety.

    3. 867-5309*

      Keep in mind that he isn’t job hopping – he’s a consultant who is taking on different assignments. This is very common in many fields so in and of itself, it not cause for concern.

      My resume says “Marketing and Communications Consultant” and then I list successes/results, like I would if I were with just one company.

      1. Mama Bear*

        This. I would see it as win-win if he has a steady check/employer but just goes to a bunch of different offices as-needed. Many companies do this (short term details, working onsite with client, long term/full time school substitutes) so maybe think of it that way. If the company likes him, they may request him back.

      2. Indigo64*

        Right, my concern about changing jobs every few months is the stress of effectively starting a new job. Thanks for the resume suggestion!

    2. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      Yeah-when there’s no increase in salary accompanying the additional responsibility that comes with the promotion.

      3. pumpkin on da shelf*

        I was asked once to take a paycut, to go from a non-exempt/hourly position to an exempt/salaried promotion. I respectfully declined.

    3. Jamie*

      Only if they are limiting themselves by doing so. If they have internal candidates who are qualified and a good fit for the position it’s great to promote from within. But if they don’t have a great fit internally and they keep it inside at the expense of filling the role with someone better qualified then that’s a terrible idea.

    4. Cat Fan*

      if I’m understanding the question, I’d say when promoting someone into a management position based on their technical skill when they have no prior management experience and the company is not not giving them any management training. That can be a problem for the new manager and the reports.

      1. MOAS*

        Yeah, I do wish that all management positions came with management training; my boss was really good mentor but there should be a system in place.

    5. Michelle*

      Yes, when it really means “we pretend it’s open to all qualified internal candidates, even though we know who is going to get the job and if there were more qualified external candidates, too bad, we hire our friends!”

      Sorry- this has happened recently and it’s driving me bonkers. So many positions filled with people who can’t do their job.

    6. CastIrony*

      Sure, when they hire the grandboss’s sister, and people are talking about how they’re always reporting things to the grandboss, calling them a spy and a nepotist.

    7. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’ve found it to be a negative when the promotion is based on the assumption that being able to successfully do a job translates to successfully managing others to do that job.

    8. LadyByTheLake*

      Yes, it can be negative when it means that the company never hires external experienced people so all that anyone knows is how Acme Inc does it. I work with a company like that right now where the company as a whole is wildly out of step (and about ten years behind the times) with respect to regulatory requirements and industry norms and expectations. Unfortunately, everyone is firmly and irrationally convinced that they are doing it correctly because no one has any exposure to anything different. This is despite the fact that the regulators are specifically saying that they are doing it wrong — change is impossible to implement because everyone is so tied to what they have always done. It is like trying to explain the sun to someone who has always lived at the bottom of a cave and has never seen light.

      1. Natalie*

        Yep, I recently left a place like that. The only new hires they made were low- to mid-level positions, and frankly their super backwards systems meant a lot of those people declined to stick around. It’s just going to get harder and harder for them to compete for talent in our field.

      2. zora*

        This is exactly what I was going to mention. I worked in a nonprofit where I was the first mid-level outside hire in many years, all of the management had started with the org as entry level and while in some ways that is great that there was a path for people, it was every single member of management.
        So, there was a lot of dysfunction that was baked in because none of the management had ever worked for another company in their entire adult life. It was really hard to change or improve things because of the mindset that “This is just how you do things. Full stop.”

        I think promoting from within is good, but like in many things, I think your management should be diverse in their tenure with the organization. So that you have a mix of people who have a deep understanding of the company, and people who have seen how other organizations do things.

      3. strudel*

        Ugh, yes. I work in higher ed. The university promotes from within, and people stay here *forever*– lots of people have been here 10, 15, 20 years and beyond. We’re so behind in terms of technology, processes, systems, etc, and everyone is very set in their ways and does not want to change or learn new ways to do things.

    9. MOAS*

      Thanks guys, I know it’s kind of vague; it wasn’t spurred by any one incident or person, but just something I’m curious about. From what I’ve read on this blog over the years, it seems that if the goal is to move up, they may need to find other companies as there’s not a lot of room for growth at some companies.

      I was having a conversation with a coworker, and we were talking about turnover etc. Looking at it from the outside, you’d think there’s high turnover in the junior/admin role, but majority of them actually get promoted to accountants (after getting their license/degree/experience). My company is very much a “promote from within” but raises are included with the promotions. Admin get promoted to accountants, accountants get promoted to senior, then supervisor/manager if they show the skill. We have lots of senior workers who are not in mgmt. However, admin and accountant/sr accountant are open to external candidates, while I have yet to see someone from outside come in as a supervisor/manager.

      I have yet to see a “nepotism” promotion (but side note — I was paranoid in my own position that I was seen as a nepotism hire so to speak).

      I’ve always thought promoting from within was a good thing, and I still think it is, but these other points are really interesting to read. Thanks all!

      1. Qwerty*

        This sounds like a really great system! I think one of the most important points in what you describe is that your company seems to be *training* people for the higher positions. By investing in their employees, they are making sure that they always have a pool of qualified applicants for the senior/management positions. You mention that senior accountants are promoted to supervisor/manager “if they have the skill”, which is the big distinction to make from a place that just blindly promotes from within.

        It’s also worth considering if this plays into the hiring process for the junior/admin roles. When I worked at a place that had successful internal promotions, we looked for junior people who were eager to learn that we thought would be a good fit to eventually grow into a mid-level or senior role once they were fully trained/had more experience.

    10. CupcakeCounter*

      And in addition to all of the other things mentioned, it can lead to significant pay inequality since outside candidates are usually much more expensive. At my last company if an internal candidate is promoted, the salary increase is capped at 10% of their current salary even if the salary band for the position is considerably higher.
      When it happened to me, I got the full 10% pay bump even though the person I was replacing made about double my salary. They had a ton more experience than I did as well as an outside certification so while I didn’t think I should be where a 20 year person was as I was entering year 5, the job advertisement listed a salary about $10k higher than what I ended up with. When I left, the person who was hired got that higher wage even though they had less experience than I did. I looking now and appear to still be $10-$15k underpaid.

    11. Middle School Teacher*

      Yes. Especially when it’s obvious someone will get the job but the company advertises and interviews to “make it fair”. It’s always obvious.

    12. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      It is if they don’t consider the qualifications or interpersonal contexts. A few of the worst situations I saw involved someone who was not really qualified and also on the young side (very early career) get promoted. They promptly got overwhelmed with the job duties and navigating the social aspect of managing their former peers or peer age group. Two got canned for sexual harassment, two got canned for authoritarian behavior that led to accidents, ex: Do as I say or you’re fired!! when what they were asking the person to do was in violation of safety rules, OSHA, etc. One of the latter two ended up with a teenager in the ICU due to his negligence.

    13. WellRed*

      I’m sorry for you and her family. This is a reminder to take time off once in awhile, take that vacation, buy the shoes, eat the cake.

    14. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Another downside–companies that give a promotion but don’t fill the former role so people are doing two jobs. I’ve seen places where management includes in the promotion email that “Lucretia will continue to help during the transition” but doesn’t have anyone to transition tasks to. There aren’t enough hours in the day to do 2 jobs, and Lucretia gets a bad rep for not doing her old job… on top of poor results coming up to speed on her NEW job because she doesn’t get to do it all day.

  10. Goldfinch*

    One of my colleagues unexpectedly passed away this week. She was planning to retire on 12/31. She had less than 40 days of work left in her entire life before she was free.

    I’m so angry on her behalf. All the time spent in a cubicle, all the money sacrificed to a retirement account that will never be used, all the travel she won’t get to do.

    Just wanted to say it here on the anonymous Internet, because talking about it IRL would make me self-absorbed.

    1. New Job So Much Better*

      That stinks, so sorry for her and her family. I hear of that happening really too often.

    2. Libertine Agrarian*

      That’s really sad…

      I empathize so much. I really hope I get to retire one day, but it does worry me that I won’t because my health is not great.

      The irony is that if I only knew when I’ll die, I’d budget to retire before that you know?

    3. rayray*

      I’ve seen people in similar situations, and I agree- it’s awful. It’s really too bad that people don’t get to have a nice retirement when they’ve worked so hard.

    5. ytk*

      I’m so sorry, such devastating news.

      It doesn’t make you self-absorbed – to me it sounds like you’re a thoughtful colleague who is processing the impacts and thinking how unfair the situation seems .

    6. TooTiredToThink*

      I am so very sorry. I’m sure you miss her too. Vent away; we are the appropriate circle for that!

    7. Rebecca*

      This happened to my sister in law, she made it to retirement age, and passed away before she could retire. She was looking forward to spending time with her young grandchildren :( It’s so sad when this happens. Every day is a gift.

      1. Ama*

        I worry this will happen to my father, who is approaching retirement within the next 2-3 years. He’s already a cancer survivor and has had a bunch of health problems recently (he’s had 5 surgical procedures this year alone — all but one were minor, outpatient things but still). I’m glad that he and my mom have always been good about taking regular vacations (he is who I learned my strong work-life boundaries from) so that if the worst happens at least it won’t seem like he spent his entire life at the office.

      1. Miz Behaven*

        I don’t see how that would be self-absorbed either; I interpreted that as being very empathetic, and appreciating the sad randomness of life.

      2. Goldfinch*

        Well, she isn’t here to care that she got cheated out of retirement, so it would kinda make it about me and my personal fears, I guess?

        1. Office Gumby*

          That’s not self-absorbed; that’s reflective, and it’s normal in the face of something like this.

    10. Yorkshire Rose*

      This same thing happened to a colleague of mine. It was several years ago and still makes me sad.

    12. Gidget*

      Oof. I am sorry for the loss of your colleague. You are not self absorbed. This is the exact type of moment where you are allowed to be angry at the universe.

    13. Damien*

      Somehow it feels more devastating when it happens right before someone was due to leave a place, doesn’t it?

      I worked with a lovely young woman who passed away out of the blue earlier this year. She wasn’t even 25, and it turned out that she’d been jobhunting and doing interviews before her death, and the day after she died her partner got a call from one place to offer her the job. It feels so disgustingly unfair.

    14. WellRed*

      I’m sorry for you and her family. This is a reminder to take time off once in awhile, take that vacation, buy the shoes, eat the cake.

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m so very sorry. I’ve been through something similar with a co-worker and I don’t wish it on anyone.
      All the best to you & yours, and your co-worker’s family.

    16. Mama Bear*

      I have experienced coworkers dying unexpectedly. What I try to take from that is that life (and retirement) is never guaranteed. Take that vacation. Use that PTO. You never know if you won’t have another chance.

      Does your company have an EAP? If so, call them for counseling if you need it. It’s hard when someone dies without warning.

      1. Loubelou*

        Yes, this. If we save up all our living until retirement, we are missing out on living in the now. This kind of story makes me sad but also encourages me to appreciate and enjoy every single day.

    17. Fikly*

      My mom had a coworker, a doctor, who was terrified of retiring, because he’d seen doctor friends of his retire and then die within a year or two.

      What he never realized was that they all worked until they physically couldn’t, essentially worked themselves to death, and then died after they retired. And because he didn’t realize it, he did the same thing. Don’t be him!

    18. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. It can make one feel as if one’s lifelong efforts are futile.

      Depending on the kind of retirement account, it may go to her beneficiaries so it would be used for good.

    19. Millie*

      How sad. Today I attended a memorial service for my boss’s wife. Cancer ended her life at 42. They were married for 23yrs. This year their son and daughter-in-law had a baby boy, and their daughter graduated high school. They all have strong faith and will be ok, but this is so unfair.

  11. Brett*

    I was so waiting for this thread…
    I have talked before about the rather blatant discrimination in hiring and promotion that went on at previous job. Basically, the job was very cliquey, with the clique centered around what high school people went to. People who went to elite all-boys private catholic schools received better offers at hiring, regardless of qualifications. Since we had no merit raises, that cascaded into pay and promotion opportunities throughout people’s careers.

    Someone finally sued (over LGBTQ discrimination) and won!
    For a judgement of $19 MILLION!

    I know the plaintiff and I am happy he won, and the victory is triggering a massive cascade of changes throughout the agency. The entire governing board is being replaced, and there is going to be a huge shakeup in leadership.

    (For those curious, statute of limitations for lawsuits has already passed for me. I’m fine. I make more than double now that I made there, and I make more than the people in my unit who were the beneficiaries of that discrimination.)

    2. Justme, The OG*

      I read about that, assuming it’s what I’m thinking of. As someone writing a dissertation related to discrimination, I found it very interesting. And very happy for the decision.

      1. Brett*

        If the details line up (especially the part about the board getting replaced), it is probably the same case.

        If you have read some of the detail articles about the various people who testified, both of the women who testified about discrimination against them were in my unit and were some of the people who were obviously being discriminated against in pay.

      2. AndersonDarling*

        As someone in the area, I, and everyone I know, was happy with the decision. Hopefully, it will be stirring up a lot of changes.

    3. Shocked Pikachu*

      I am sorry the statue of limitations have passed for you but glad to hear you are fine and making good money :) YAY for the lawsuit and changes :)

    4. fposte*

      Oh, they have been asking for that for years–how wonderful that it finally happened. I was so happy when you finally got out of that horrible place.

    5. Sleepy*

      Fantastic to hear that there have been changes…and that you went on to make so much more money. Good for you! The best revenge… XD

    8. OperaArt*

      I read about that! The discrimination and the blatant retaliation. They didn’t even try to hide it. Glad the board is getting replaced.

  12. ITGirl*

    I just want some other opinions on this: People have a tendency to call me, because my job requires that I answer the phone for Support questions and they know I’ll answer, to ask if other people are in the office. I am not the secretary, we don’t have one, and I’m often busy doing my job when these calls come in. I usually answer this question with a simple “I don’t know, I haven’t seen them around today?” but I’m worried I seem un-helpful, or rude. I also happen to sit across from a manager’s office (not my manager, just A Manager) and people tend to pivot from his door to mine “Hey, is Joe around? Where is he? Can you give him a message when he gets back” again, I don’t want to be un-helpful but I do want to do my own damn job.

    1. yay november*

      Since you have to answer the phone for support calls, I’d use that to address the calls directly. “I need to keep this line free for support, so if you need to reach someone, please call them directly or e-mail them.”

      As for people doing it in person, I wonder if the fact that you sit near a manager makes people think you’re that manager’s secretary. Just say you aren’t taking messages (because you don’t know if you’ll be able to pass them along, because you might be on the phone with a support call, you might not see the person, etc) and that they should e-mail or call that person.

      Also, does your office have instant message? If so, redirect people to that. That will let others know more information than you have. (Don’t check it for them. Tell them to check it themselves.)

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        All of this is what I would do, especially notifying people who ask where the manager is that you’re not his secretary. You don’t even have to say it harshly. When someone asks where he is, you could laugh and say, “I’m not really sure since I’m IT support. You might want to check his calendar or send him an IM.”

    2. Jamie*

      Think of it this way, it’s unhelpful to contribute to an inefficient system of messaging, which is asking people to tell others things.

      In person just say pleasantly, “I don’t know where he is, the best way to get him a message is [postit, email, carrier pigioen, whatever is common for your office.]”

      For the phone, “I don’t know, if they aren’t at their desk why don’t you shoot them an email.”

      Said nicely with never, ever offering to intervene it should stop.

    3. CatCat*

      It’s fine to seem unhelpful on answering on people’s whereabouts and you can do so in a way that is not rude, which sounds like you have. If they call you on the support line and ask if Joe is around, you can say, “I don’t know. Do you have a Support question?”

      Also, I think you should say you don’t know even if you do know. Because you’re training them that calling you is never going to get them an answer they want on whether Joe is around.

      If they stop at your desk, act puzzled and a but like they’ve interrupted you in the middle of something. “Huh? I don’t know if Joe is around.” If they ask you to take a message, “No, I have to focus on Support work and I have no idea if I’ll even see him later. I suggest you shoot him an email or leave him a voicemail.” Then turn back to your computer or writing something down or whatever. Doesn’t even have to be real work, it just has to look like you’re busy. Do not take messages for Joe or people will never let up.

      I had one particular person who used to do this to me ALL THE TIME. I was super unhelpful in terms of answering that question, but I was not rude about it.

    4. Michelle*

      I feel this so hard. Our managers will not answer their phones or walkies, even when they are sitting at their desk. I will hear the phone buzzing and know that they will buzz me next because I apparently have a reputation for getting managers to answer their calls. I don’t know why. But it’s annoying to be interrupted. Why don’t they just walk to that person’s office/cube instead of bothering you?

    5. Lana Kane*

      On the message thing: it might help to frame the no as “I have other tasks and can’t reliably get him a message in time. Sorry! Here’s a notepad if you want to leave him a note.” And then after you give this answer a few times you can shorten it to, “I can’t, but the notepad is over there!” (If you want, you could wait a couple of seconds before prying your eyes away from your computer and then distractedly say that.)

      On the phone calls, don’t be afraid to just say you don’t know. Don’t even say you haven’t seen them around today. Just with a confused tone, “I don’t know?”

      It’s also ok to see if your manager can help curb this behavior. Presumably they don’t want your support line tied up for this stuff.

      1. ITGirl*

        Thanks for linking to this, I could have written that entire email! That is 100% what I’m dealing with. From the feed back I’m getting, and from that post is that I’m on the right track. It’s not rude or unhelpful to not jump at helping these. It just re-enforces people coming to me, and it’s frustrating!

    7. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

      There is an AAM post (with update) called “People think I’m my boss’ assistant but I’m not”, you may find it useful. I tried to post the link but I think it got quarantined.
      I just hope your coworkers are not as bad as the ones in that letter!

    8. Yorick*

      People will ask me about people nearby all the time. I find it super annoying. I don’t know where Jessica is, I can’t even see her desk so I didn’t even know she wasn’t sitting at it?

    9. NotAPirate*

      Oh man I have no solution but so much sympathy for you!! I sit in an open office with a glass wall + door then a little hallway directly to another glass door. I sit tragically closest to the door. People get stuck outside the outer door and will bang and wave at me without stopping until I get up and go talk to them. I’m not the door person, I’m not the admin, I’m never the one they are working with. So then I have to escort them until we find their person. It’s so dumb. I’ve started wearing headphones just to be able to pretend I don’t see them pounding and waving. The door has 3 contact numbers on it for if you can’t reach whoever is supposed to let you in to the secure lab. I can’t leave them unescorted because of safety stuff. I’ve tried bringing it up, and everyone else thinks it’s not a big deal since it only takes a couple minutes but they aren’t the ones getting up all the time to deal with it. Also it’s not so much the lack of time working, it’s the mental disruption. Curse whoever created open floor plans!

      1. yay november*

        “everyone else thinks it’s not a big deal since it only takes a couple minutes but they aren’t the ones getting up all the time to deal with it. ”
        Ask them if they want to switch desks?

    10. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Perhaps be a bit more all purpose in your answer. When you are too specific about “I haven’t seen them TODAY” they’re not getting that it’s just not something they should EVER ask you. You could say something like: “I don’t have access to their calendar,” or “I don’t have access to Fergus’ schedule,” “I’m not the person to ask for that information.” Your tone of voice is what will keep it helpful and not rude. You ARE helping them, by letting them know they contacted the wrong person, the same as politely telling someone, “I’m sorry, I think you’ve dialed the wrong number.”

    12. Donna*

      ‘Oh gee, I really don’t know’ with wide eyes and a smile – each and every time. Don’t divert, no matter what. BTDT. ;-)

    13. LilySparrow*

      I cheerfully say, “Oh, I’m the wrong person to ask, I wouldn’t begin to know.”

      If people want to leave messages, I say, “You’re better off leaving a voicemail or emailing her. She wouldn’t check with me.”

    14. Emilitron*

      My response to in-person questions/messages for my neighbor desk is to keep a pad of Post-Its and a pen ready to go. “Here, leave a note on their desk”. (see look how helpful I am in 10 seconds or less, now go away)

  14. A Simple Narwhal*

    I GOT PROMOTED!!!!!

    I’m so excited! The last 7+ months have been a lot of hard work but it all paid off! This is my first ever promotion (I’ve always had to leave companies for higher titles elsewhere) and I’m so jazzed! On top of it all, my department is famously hard to get promoted in – my new peers took five years to get it but I got it in just under two! It’s getting announced later so I haven’t been able to tell anyone except my husband but I wanted to share it with all you lovely people!

    Take that impostor syndrome!

    12. Minocho*

      Awesome! You worked hard for it, and you got it! That’s so amazing!

      That’s a great feeling to take into the weekend! Yay!

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Congrats!
      (Pretend I inserted a gif of narwals dancing for joy. less work for Alison that way. ;) )

  15. LGC*

    Bit of a new situation at work this week – I just got a legally blind employee. (So, they can see somewhat.) We’ve already got some things set up for them, like a 60-inch TV for them to use like a conventional monitor and some disability settings turned on in Windows. (Plus, I’ve slightly adjusted their workflow so that they don’t have too much time pressure, since they need to work slowly.)

    Is there anything else I should be doing, or that I can suggest? They’re great at advocating for themselves, and I know well enough to mostly let them take the lead. (I did try high contrast on my workstation, and it actually caused issues with our document management program. But I’m not sure if that’s my settings.)

    1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      There might be a need for greater or lesser lighting to view the screen. Best to ask for your employee’s preference on this. My Mom prefers less lighting so that she can see the contrast betw. the type and the background.

      How about the lettering on the keyboard keys? Is there good color contrast or is the letter large in font size? There are products that go over the keys to provide larger font size on the keys.

      What about the other office equipment? Like the company microwave? My Mom put some stick-on ‘bumps’ to raise the surface of the numbers she presses the most for microwaving her foods. Makes it easier to find them when it’s hard to read the keypad numbers.

      1. LGC*

        Thanks!

        One thing I didn’t note is – the employee is actually really good at advocating for themselves, which is a nice change of pace! (Usually, I’m trying to figure out how to help people, while being somewhat hamstrung.) It’s great because I’m less worried that they’re just going to suffer in silence.

        I didn’t even think about the keyboard, but that actually is something we have on hand. All of our keyboards are black with white lettering, but we do have a few large-type keyboards. (And a couple of left-handed ones.) They didn’t say anything to me over the first couple of days, so I’m probably going to let them take the lead.

        I put the employee’s workstation right by mine – so it’s fairly close to the windows, but not quite up on it. Unfortunately, we have fluorescent lighting, which is…not great! I’ll try to dim the blinds a bit, although it’ll be less of an issue this time of year (since I’m in the northern US).

        I can suggest some things as general accommodations as well. Generally, we have employees with mental health issues or mobility issues – people with sensory impairments are an area we struggle (and okay, I’ve struggled) with a little. So I’ll definitely consider getting bumps/stickers for the microwaves. But I’m “just” a supervisor.

        1. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

          Your first instinct- let them take the lead on what they need- is right on!

        2. Grace*

          You can get specific braille stickers, if your employee can read braille.

          Molly Burke over on YouTube is a blind advocate and motivational speaker, and she’s done a bunch of things about how people can help, questions you probably shouldn’t ask, etc – one thing she’s said multiple times is that if someone reads braille (or even if they don’t and it’s for the future) braille everything. The numbers for every meeting room. Every office plaque. Coffee machines and microwaves. It normalises it.

    2. Shocked Pikachu*

      The biggest thing I suggest is to let them have the lead. Sounds like you have it covered and they are good advocating for themselves. If anything, you can simply ask “everything working out all right “ I mentioned here before I have legally blind friend back in Europe and the biggest problem she is dealing with is people helping her without actually asking her if she needs/of what kind of help she needs. It can get downright scary, when people just approach her (she uses a cane for walking), and without saying a word grab her and starting to drag her across the street or whenever. She had that problem at work at first, coworkers trying to be helpful just grabbing her shoulder and hand and leading her around. Anyways, again, sounds like your employee is on top of it, so don’t worry about it. You can always do brief check in to ask if they are settled in all right ( which btw is nice and useful thing to do for new employees who don’t need accommodations )

    3. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

      Be guided by them. Spend plenty of time with them as they learn the job, and make sure they know they can suggest things.

      There will most likely be things that you can do that you won’t discover until they are doing the job.

      1. Shocked Pikachu*

        Being approachable is such a great asset in general. Often people (and their work productivity) can greatly benefit from tweaking their surroundings.

    4. Not really a waitress*

      My dad was legally blind the last few years of his life. (Again he also had some limited vision) We worked to accomodate without babying him. For example. When watching college football I taught my son to read the score ticker outloud without looking like he was reading it to my dad. Hey look at that! Kansas St is upseting Oklahoma.
      I would recommend just being aware of how much visual you depend on (ppts in meetings etc)

      1. Shocked Pikachu*

        I have always had great vision, better than 20/20. Unfortunately the past year I developed myopia. Not young anymore, I guess. Sigh. I have fairly mild prescription but still, it’s been kinda weird adjustment and I still resist wearing glasses. I wear them for driving every time, but otherwise I have hard time to. It’s silly and I don’t know why it bothers me so much. We were getting food at the mall, giving our orders and I looked and realized their menu was posted on the wall on the left (we were standing by the cash register all the way to the right). I couldn’t read it, it was all blurry. And they were all looking at me and I panicked thinking I have to tell them I can’t see it. But then one of the young people serving said “do you like it spicy or hot ? And chicken or beef. You can either have plate or bowl, side noodles or rice” It was so nice of her. Anyways, I hope it’s not too much OT but yes, I so understand about helping in a way that feels like not helping :)

    5. Llellayena*

      Run everything past her before implementing because suddenly changing the environment for someone who is legally blind can be even more confusing, but…
      1) Large visual cues for the various conference rooms, copy rooms, bathrooms, rooms-employee-would-use (colors, large numbers painted on doors…)
      2) Raised buttons and/or braille (find out if she reads it first) on standard office equipment like copiers/printers (Printer company probably has disability modifications available)
      3) Adjustable light levels in her office and all conference rooms
      4) Clear instructions to staff and cleaning service that walkways need to remain clear
      5) Allow the employee to record meetings or take notes with a laptop (raised keys)

      There’s a short-lived tv show about a blind police detective that hits a few of these blind-in-the-workplace issues. At one point he memorizes the layout of the room so he can get around without the cane but trips when someone leaves a drawer on a desk open (deliberately in that case, but could happen accidentally too).

    6. Bagpuss*

      I think the key is to listen when they tell you what they need – and then make sure that things *remain* implemented – for instance, if making sure that other employees leave walkways free from obstructions might need to be monitored and people reminded over time.

      It might also be worth asking your new employee – for instnace asking specifcally whther having larger / different labelling on doos / office equipment etc would be useful and if so, whet would work best (I would imagine that some people might prefer bigger font, others brigther colours and others gain, braille)

    7. LGC*

      Thanks for the advice!

      I left out a couple of things: the employee is actually doing data entry work, and we’re a social enterprise for people with disabilities. So…my office usually is free of obstructions. (I mentioned that we have people with mobility limitations, so it’s required.)

      I tell the rest of the team to keep pathways clear and they’re good about it. So I’m not to worried about it.

      Generally, we don’t really have meetings for the employees very often, and most of those are announcements. (They don’t have company email because Reasons.) I actually prefer to just hand out memos and stuff, but I’ll try to be more considerate of them.

    8. BlindChina*

      One thing you may want to do is let other workers know not to “help” with out asking. I can not begin to tell you how many people either assume incompetence, or do the grab and drag thing. Project a confident air with other workers “oh Suzie has got this” Assuming you are in the US, ask her if she wants the Commission for the blind to do a walk through of your office The commission can make little adjustments, like raised dots on the copy machine buttons Follow her lead though, my local commission stinks, I would never want them in my office. In most the country they are a good resource. Also be aware that using the term “legally blind” or emphasizing that she can see some can be insulting. It can make her feel like you think she is just pretending, or that blind is such a dirty word you must excuse it. Follow her cues on this! This is some thing many of us hate! By definition blind is blind. Give her the ability to come to you without looking incompetent. Say “you know what you need better than I will, I am willing to work with you to accommodate what works best for you anyway I can. Please tell me when/if you need things done differently, otherwise I will assume it is working.” Then follow though with that. Checking in lots, when there hasn’t been an issue with her work, makes it look to her and her coworker that you don’t think she can do the work. Once a year in one on ones is enough.

      1. LGC*

        Thanks for the heads up! I wasn’t even aware that was an issue. I’ll make sure to not use it going forward.

        (I did use the term because the job requires reading text on images – it’s clearly printed text, but it’s checking the OCR against the actual text.)

    9. AngelicGamer, the visually impaired peep*

      I’m not sure how your employee is legally blind but mine deals with having a small field of vision on the sides while my center is good with glasses. So, for me, it would be the smaller things. For example – leave all walkways clear of obstructions, make sure that you’re telling them that you’re there, say how you’re handing them things, don’t be a jerk with the handing them things and taking them back (I had a co-worker do this and I had to walk away so I didn’t blow up at them in front of customers), and ask if they want an elbow instead of just automatically grabbing them.

      Also, and this trips people up, I can pass for normal until my cane comes out. If (big if here) your employee can do the same away from their cubicle, keep an ear open for gossip about how they might be faking it and shut it down. Please. I had to deal with that BS in high school – I came to my visually disability late because I am insanely good as passing for able – and the worry about people thinking I’m faking pops up in my head all the time.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I was a year ahead of a legally blind student in my junior high. The bigt thing I remember was making sure she’d have someone to be an escort in case of fire drill or emergency evacuation, when everyone’s supposed to walk faster than is safe for her.
      The really cool thing they did, when she first started at the new school, she was given time to walk around the building after hours with other students with them chattering about what she didn’t see. Obviously she’d need to know her classrooms, restrooms, the nurse, etc… but the chatter let her know what else was there. Lots of people give directions by things that aren’t obvious: murals, three different display cases, the colors of the lockers in different wings, the teacher’s room, etc.
      Thanks for thinking ahead!

    11. WalkedInMyShoes*

      If you search on Job Accommodation Network, you will find all the accommodation recommendations. Hope this helps.

  16. GigglyPuff*

    I need some help on how to ask my reference/old manager about applying for their old job.

    I worked for them almost five years ago, and have been in my next position since, but have been looking for 3 years. It’s a very specific field (so not too weird, but getting there), but I know they’ve been contacted multiple times as my reference. I know that’s a regular part of job searching but I still feel bad that it’s been so long and they might’ve been contacted so many times.

    A few months ago during a conversation about a reference, they mentioned they were moving to a new job. Their old job just got posted and it’s actually not asking for that much experience and is willing to work with people who are new managers (which is one of the main things holding me back, I have no management experience), and is only asking for a few years experience with everything else.

    But my guilt/anxiety over whether the job would be good for me (moving back home)/shortcomings is making it difficult for me in figuring out how to ask about/letting her know I was interested in applying. Also I know a few other people left around the same time and I’m wondering if I should ask if something happened? (But I know all of them had been there 3+ years, so it might just be the timing.)

    So does anyone have any wording/tips/suggestions on how to frame the email? I really appreciate any help. And I know I’m totally overthinking this, but the anxiety isn’t really letting me sit down and hash it out coherently.

    1. CAA*

      Hi Old Mgr, I’ve been thinking about our conversation a few months ago when you told me you were leaving Company X, and have decided I’m really interested in applying for OldJob. I think it could be a great next step for me and I was wondering if I could use you as a reference. Also, if you have any insight or things I should know about the application or hiring process, or the current situation at X, I’d love to have your input. I really appreciate your advice. Thanks, GigglyPuff

  17. FallingSlowly*

    I need to vent somewhere that people will understand:

    There is a temporary worker in my office who thinks it’s funny to deliberately call me by a nickname I’ve asked him not to use, to stand right behind me so I can’t move, and put his hand on my shoulder (refusing to take it away even after I’ve jerked away from him and tried to shrug his hand off me), and to interrupt my work to demand help with his work as if it is my role to assist him, which is is decidedly not.

    I’m in an awkward situation in that I’ve only been here a few months myself and haven’t had opportunity to build up a lot of capital with the owners, and this guy is a friend of one of the owners who is doing him a favour (supposedly) by stepping in while we are short-staffed.

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, he is an older man, and I’m female, but I’m not junior to him in experience or qualifications, and I am probably only 10 years younger.

    I can’t get into specifics too much, but this office is much less formal than my last employer, and while that works out in some beneficial ways, there is also much less awareness or concern about the kind of professional boundaries I would consider appropriate. I have the sense that were I to call him out more directly, I would be seen as overreacting, “can’t take a joke” and so on.

    Because he is only here until the new hire is fully trained, I may be able to sidestep him until then, but it makes me so furious that this kind of behaviour can still be considered ok in the workplace!

    Thank you for the vent.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Blechchchhcchch there is so much shudder-inducing material there, but I can’t get over that he won’t remove his hand even after you’ve jerked away and tried to shake him off. I think there’s nothing wrong with firmly saying “Stop touching me” (You could even start with a “please remove your hand” or adding in a “thank you”, not that he deserves that.) and then escalate in terms of volume and exclamation.

      I think physical touching is a pretty safe thing to address, there’s no real room for thinking that it’s a joke or an overreaction if you start off clear and calm. Oh and my favorite stand-by when someone claims that you can’t take a joke is to ask them to explain it to you so you can understand the humor in it.

      Uggh I’m sorry about this, I hope he’s gone soon.

      1. Jamie*

        I was stuck on the same point. Start with “Please don’t touch me.” as you jerk away. If he doesn’t move his hand an alarmed, “why are you touching me when I’ve asked you not to?!” in a louder than normal voice is totally appropriate.

        Backing up fast even if you bump into something also totally fine.

        Don’t assist him – demands don’t get rewarded. Ask your boss, if you don’t know, who should be doing the tasks hes asking you to help with and point him there.

        1. Ama*

          Yeah, I have called people out (not coworkers) for touching me without my permission and there really is no way to weasel out of “I have asked you not to touch me, why are you still doing it?”

          2. Shocked Pikachu*

            I’ve read post on – I think it was Delta’s – FB wall. Complaint from someone because fellow passengers (elderly woman) attempted to get flight attendant‘s attention by putting her hand on FA’s shoulder. Flight attendant turned around and said “please don’t touch me” which in OP’s opinion was very rude. I was pleasantly surprised pretty much all of the commenters were on the flight attendant side :)

        2. AndersonDarling*

          There is a point where this behavior crosses a line and you are allowed to react in an equally bold fashion. If it happens again, tell them to remove their hand. If he puts it back again, you need to respond loud enough that it will be embarrassing for him. I would go with something ambiguous so that anyone hearing your statement can interpret it as something worse… how about, “I told you to stop touching me there! What do I need to do to make you stop touching me!?”
          Unfortunately, someone who is trying to dominate you won’t back down if you are uncomfortable. They want you to be uncomfortable. So you need to make them uncomfortable by calling them out and embarrassing them.

      2. Eeether Eyether*

        That’s awful!! We had a temp older male (I’m female) with us for several months who was about 15 yrs my senior. He called me honey, said love in an inappropriate context a lot “I just sent you a little love note” (email)–very mild compared to your experience. I told him to stop it–that it was in appropriate. He didn’t like it–he thought it was funny and harmless “oh, come on,” but he stopped. Be. Firm. He was in a profession that should have known better.

    2. yay november*

      Go to your bosses and tell them. If they won’t do anything about it, that’s very important information to have.

      I’ve dealt with people calling me by the an insulting nickname and grinned and beared it because I couldn’t get him to stop. But touching? Abstructing your path? Those are deliberate things that you can point to. Those are deliberate actions. Those aren’t “being friendly”. Those are giving me a full body shudder just reading about it.

      This guy is pushing boundaries. This guy is an harrasser. This guy needs to stop. That he’s friends with the boss means this is hard mode. So it’s on them. Will they have your back or not? If not… that is important information and I’d say you need to find an exit strategy if you can. Because this guy might go away. But what happens if there’s another guy?

      1. Mama Bear*

        I agree. Even if he’s the boss’s best friend evar, it doesn’t give him a free pass. I would start with saying loudly and clearly, “Do not touch me” and “You need to move.” I would also talk to my boss/HR because if he won’t stop (nevermind that he’s a friend of the owner), that’s inappropriate and you have the right to not be harassed at work. If he says you can’t take a joke, remind him that it’s not funny and he needs to stop. Don’t let him getting offended keep you from speaking up for yourself. The name thing can be annoying, but the rest of it is physical intimidation and/or harassment. He’s a temp. You are not. This is not OK.

    3. ElizabethJane*

      The continued touching falls pretty squarely into the realm of sexual harassment and I’d file a complaint immediately. The fact that you’ve only been there a few months is actually irrelevant.

      I realize that’s easy for me to say from the other side of my keyboard but also – no. This is not OK.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Yup. I’d notify my manager, tell him to stop (again), and if the touching and path blocking continued, I’d skip on up to HR and file a formal harassment complaint.

    4. BadWolf*

      Gross. He keeps a hand clamped on your shoulder? How do you feel about a loud and blunt, “Stop touching me.” If he’s a clueless (probably not) or medium jerk, this may embarrass him into stopping. He may play the “No fun” card, but honestly, no one will think you’re not fun because you don’t want him grabbing your shoulders.

      And he’s standing right behind you? Does he sneak up? Can you “accidentally” tread on his feet? Probably you should do something adult here, but it’d be awfully tempting to accidentally step on his feet and elbow him in the gut or fling a mug of coffee all over in surprise, “Oh gosh, what were you doing right behind me.”

      I think AAM has addressed the nickname thing in a couple letters. There’s also a lot of power “Nope, I’m not fun. Don’t call me Honey Bunny.” Unless the whole office is full of jerks, normal people are going to read him as jerk if he starts complaining the things you’ve described.

      1. BadWolf*

        And the “stop touching me” is a one time warning, if you want to give one more warning. There’s enough that you’ve laid out to start with HR.

    5. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Non-accidental unwanted touching = assault. Take this harassment up with management now. Or HR, if you have one (my impression is this is a small company because mention the owners.)

    6. Michelle*

      Anyway to “accidentally kick him in the shins? Like when he puts his hand on your shoulder, turn around in surprised way and your foot swings a bit too much? Oh and I would not answer if he called me by the nickname. If he makes a scene, just say that’s not your name.

      Touching someone and blocking their way is not OK, even if they are the boss’s friend.

    7. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you can manage this without overreacting.

      If he calls you by the nickname, refuse to acknowledge he is speaking to you. If he stands too close, say “excuse me I need to get past you” and give him a cold stare until he moves. If he touches you, say “don’t touch me”.

      The key to all of this is to do so in as neutral a way as possible. I’m related to guys like this and they think it’s hilarious to get you “all riled up”.

    8. Anon for This*

      Nope. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Not okay. The Readers of AAM give you permission to put a stop to this bullshit ASAP. He touches you? Jerk him off and say in a surprised tone “Please don’t touch me!” He says “you’re no fun,” you say “It’s not fun to be touched when I’ve asked you not to.” Same for the nickname. “Please don’t call me Marty, my name is Martha.” He calls you Marty again, you say “I’ve asked you not to call me that. What’s going on?” He asks for help for something that’s not your responsibility? Pleasantly say, “Sorry, I can’t help with that. Ask X if you need retraining.” Rinse, repeat. Don’t let his rudeness get in your way. All of the above responses are perfectly professional.

    9. Crackles*

      I think I’d act as if I didn’t know he was behind me and get up abruptly pushing my chair directly into his crotch.

    10. Quill*

      A rule my mom taught me at five that I wish more adults apply to people: if someone touches you and you don’t want them to, say no the first time, the second you are allowed to whack them EXACTLY hard enough to make them stop.

    11. Em*

      Honestly, I would give it a loud “Take your hands off me — that is inappropriate and unwelcome.” And make sure everyone can readily hear you.
      About the BS of trying to turn you into his assistant, try “you should probably ask one of the assistants for help with that — I’m afraid I’m busy with my own [insert higher level task].”

    12. EinJungerLudendorff*

      Yuck, what an absolute creep. That behaviour is outright harrassment and threatening. He’s trampling so many boundaries, and he knows darn well what he’s doing.

    13. Lora*

      NO TOUCHING ALLOWED.

      I have a Thing about people touching me. Handshakes and high fives only. The first offense gets “I don’t like people touching me,” second offense is “keep your gross hands to yourself,” third offense is an official complaint and a YELLED “I told you to keep your fking pervert hands to yourself!”

      You’re allowed to have zero sense of humor about this. Honestly, if someone was this aggressive with me there would be loud complaints all the way up the hierarchy and I would be asking my old job if I could come back because new job is full of handsy perverts.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I am a touchy person – with my people. Who are also touchy people. For my people who are not touchy people, I do not touch them. Example – one of my sales reps is very huggy. We hug when we see each other. No big deal. Another one of my reps is most decidedly NOT a huggy person. We do not hug when we see each other.

        This is super simple. He’s using the hand clamp on the shoulder, blocking your path, calling you by a name you don’t like as a means to dominate and control you (outside of making you “his” assistant). You do not have to tolerate these creepy, sexist, low level dominance tactics. There are several good options in the comments section about what to say so I won’t repeat them – pick one that you are comfortable with and proceed.

        You are not in the wrong, you are not “making a mountain out of a molehill”, you are not being hysterical / no fun / shrill / bitchy / any other term a man will use on you to make you submit. You are an autonomous human being and you should not have to put with this crap from anyone at all, from the CEO on down.

        Hard to believe it’s nearly 2020 and women are still putting up with this $hit.

    14. Blue Eagle*

      It may not work for you but a female co-worker in a former workplace got a man who kept touching her to back off by louding yelling “back off – – stop pinching me!”

    15. Bagpuss*

      EEWW!
      I agree with everyone else – it is totally reasonable for yout to make this official, regardles of how long you have worked there.
      Be clear and unambigious.
      e.g. “Harvey has repeatedly touched me, and refused to take his hand of me even when I move awayu or explicitly tell him not to touch me”
      “Harvery has continued to call me by a nickname which I don’t use [and find offensive / demeaning, if that is the case] after being repeatedly told that is not my name and I do not want to be called by it”
      “Harvey has repeatedly stood so as to trap me so I can’t pass him or move away from him, and has refused to move even when asked directyl to do so”
      And then be clear – “This is sexaul harassment. I would like you to address it and make sure that none of this, or anything simialr, happens moving forward, to me or anyone else here”

      If you don’t want to do that (or even if you do, I would alos go wuith being loud and clear whenever enaaything happens. When he puts his hand on you, don’t try to shrug it off, say, out lod “Stop touching me” or “take your hands off me”. If you wnat, the first time you can say it in a conversational tone, and even say please. After that, say it loud and angry.

      Same with the blocking you in – 1 polite request then “Step aside, I need to pass”

      With the nickname, ignore it.

      With the assisting, I would deal with that separately, as it is a work issuie rather than a harassment issue.

      I’d sugges that each time he tries, redirect him. e.g.if he is trying to get you to do things outside your remit, say “I don’t actually deal with [thing], you need to do that yourself / ask [appropriate person]”

      Where it is asking for help / explainations I would go with “It’s disruptive when you interrupt me to ask me for help with your tasks. If you have an issue, can you check your trianing materials / ask boss (as apporioate0 first. If you still can’t work it out, e-mail me and I will get back to you when I am available.” In other words, set appropriate boundaries about what you can help with, and for anything where it is reasonable for you to help, do it on your timescale, not his.

      Good luck.

    16. Jadelyn*

      Ugh, so much sympathy. Re the touching, folks have already offered plenty of advice. Re the nicknames, absolutely categorically do not respond when he tries to call you by that name. If he does it mid-conversation, conversation over, walk away. If he tries to say something about it, “I just assumed you were talking to someone else, since that’s not my name [so I figured our conversation was over].”

      Re the standing behind you, I’d just bump into him anyway. Elbow-first. Step on his feet or roll over them if you’re still in your chair. Act as though he’s not there, take up the space you need without feeling like you need to avoid him. He’s the one in your personal space, not the other way around, so have no qualms about bulldozing over norms around avoiding touching someone unnecessarily.

      Why are so many guys Like This? So frustrating.

    17. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      He’s counting on you to be a nice girl and not call him out directly. Make him very uncomfortable and get descriptive when you do call it out, “Stop pinning me against the wall” “Stop grabbing my shoulders.” “Ouch, why would you grab me?” say it all real loud. As a positive side effect, the nickname and demands for your attention will probably stop since you are no longer “his friend.”

      1. Kat in VA*

        Ah, yes – the old, “If she’s not making a scene about it, then she’s OK with it”.

        Not to be confused with, “Why are you making such a big deal about this?” when you do decide you’ve had enough and are most assuredly not OK with it.

        Can’t win, either way. The game is rigged like that.

    18. pumpkin on da shelf*

      This is so wrong, you deserve to be treated with respect. I would embarrass him as mentioned in many other replies and not respond to the other behavior. He’s counting on you not standing up for yourself, on his status of friend, on your being new perhaps as well… but this is harassment and abusive and you can and should stand up for yourself. POS… good luck!

    19. LilySparrow*

      Tell your bosses that there is a serious issue that this man repeatedly puts his hands on you after you have told him to stop. That it’s not a joke, and it’s not funny.

      Don’t make the whole laundry list (justified as it is), they may just nitpick it. He needs to stay out of your cube, and keep his hands to himself.

      Ask them what they intend to do about it, because you have told him repeatedly and directly to get his hands off you, and he’s doing it anyway.

      They have the ability to fix this immediately. If they refuse, you have to consider other options.

      This is not in any way an unreasonable or tricky or nuanced request. It is extremely clear, simple, and basic.

    20. CM*

      This is horrible. I know you know this already but it might help to hear other people say it too: this guy is doing this on purpose because he thinks he can get away with it, and standing in someone’s personal space and staring at them or blocking their way is considered threatening in pretty much every species of primate.

      As for what to do… I suggest deciding you’re okay with having a reputation as a killjoy, if it means this kind of thing stops. I’ve had good luck with loudly asking them what they’re doing. Usually they lie (I’m just standing) but you can pivot the lie into a loud request to change the behaviour (stand somewhere else; it’s creepy when you stand so close to me).

      But the key thing is to remember that he’s 100% threatening you on purpose. It’s not your responsibility to make him feel comfortable about it.

    21. M*

      There’s a lot of great advice in the replies here, but I want to focus in on something beyond the specific issue you raised. You say:

      “…this office is much less formal than my last employer, and while that works out in some beneficial ways, there is also much less awareness or concern about the kind of professional boundaries I would consider appropriate. I have the sense that were I to call him out more directly, I would be seen as overreacting, “can’t take a joke” and so on.”

      Here’s the thing. If it were just “this office is much less formal”, then no-one’s going to be angry at you for enforcing your own boundaries, even against the owner’s friend, even if you have to be loud or vulgar or angry to do it. Because this office is not a formal space with formal hierarchies and expectations that people go through the processes rather than calling out misconduct directly and however loudly is necessary to make it stop.

      But I’m going to guess, reading between the lines, that that’s not what you mean. What you actually mean is “this office is an office where people with power, formal or informal, can grab at and harass the staff and no-one does anything, but if the staff try to protect themselves from that, then *they’re* causing a scene, *they* can’t take a joke, *they’re* being unreasonable.

      You don’t have an “informal office” problem – plenty of informal offices are perfectly capable of ensuring that gropey bullies aren’t given free rein. You have an “office that is determined to ignore systematic harassment” problem, and it’s worth thinking about whether that’s somewhere you’re comfortable staying longterm, regardless of when this particular gropey bully leaves.

      If I’m wrong, then by all means, take advantage of the advantages of your informal office. Name his behaviour loudly and clearly. “Stop grabbing my arm.” “I’ve told you not to call me “sweetheart”, do we have a problem here?” “I need to get past you, move.” Ignore his attempts to turn you into his assistant. “I can’t help you with that project, I have my own projects to do today.” “If you think that task is going to take more time than you have, you need to talk to [manager].” “[New hire] is being trained to take on your role, why don’t you talk to [trainer] about her picking up that project?” If your office would see you doing those very basic things as you “overreacting”, then that’s a problem with them, not you.

  18. bassclefchick*

    Oh, man. My “Jane” is FINALLY leaving! She’s created such a toxic environment in our office and management won’t do a thing about her. In fact, our team has gotten hauled in front of HR twice because of her. The day I snapped and finally told her she gives off the attitude that the other 3 of us don’t do a thing while she’s out, disrespects us by duplicating our work, and is the cause of the discord on our team? I got hauled in front of our boss because I was “mean” to her. Sigh. NONE of the trades people want to deal with her. She’ll call them 15 times if they don’t answer her. She refuses to learn the new software and whines if you do the tasks she thinks are “hers”.

    She told us this week that she took a job in a different department. I know I should wish her luck, but I almost lost it when she said she was looking forward to learning new things. Yes, because whining about getting a new phone system and new software is helpful. After next week, she will not be my problem and I’m SO HAPPY.

    I know I shouldn’t be this petty, but she’s alienated everyone on our team, makes life difficult for the trades people, and refuses to ask for accommodations to help herself. I can’t wait until she’s gone. My other coworkers have assured me that if it doesn’t work out at the new position, she can’t automatically come back here.

    Has anyone else gone through this? I don’t want to be a bad person, but holy moly I can’t wait until she’s gone.

    1. Kathenus*

      I’m guessing many people have dealt with Janes, but not all get to see them move on. (one of) Mine was a bit different in that I was the supervisor, and he (Fergus, I guess) was great at his technical skills, but so negative that he exuded it around him like the cloud around Pigpen in The Peanuts. When he moved on I did a crazy happy dance as soon as I was out of view. He exemplified the Brilliant Jerk stereotype, but I totally get the feeling of relief to have them move on.

    2. Formerly Frustrated Optimist*

      I have a co-worker who is due to retire in a few months. She badmouths everyone in the department; is a terrible gossip; and we’re starting to see more and more mistakes in her work due to her reluctance to use electronic documents.

      I have a countdown app on my phone for her last day.

    3. pumpkin on da shelf*

      When the head of our HR department was recently fired, I sang ‘ding dong the witch is dead’… quite a few times….

      A despicable woman, people who left years ago were coming out of the woodwork on Facebook talking about karma, so inspired were they with the news which apparently traveled quickly!

      Not sure what you are asking but I hope that makes you feel better! Sometimes you gotta embrace the joy!

  19. StuckInScranton*

    I’m a lower-level supervisor for a major department store. Our newest employee, Rob, identifies as nonbinary. However, their legal name, Roberta, appears on the employee schedule.

    I’ve informed my manager and grandmanager of Rob’s preferred pronouns, as they are reporting directly to me. In all conversations, the managers continue to refer to Rob as “she” or “Roberta”, even after I casually correct them by referencing Rob as “they”.

    Personally, I find this hostile and dismissive of Rob’s identity. I understand that it can take time to relearn preferred pronouns, but there doesn’t seem to be any effort or acknowledgement that management has misspoken. The fact that they deadname Rob is what bothers me the most.

    Should I be more direct with my corrections? Should I bite my tongue? I don’t want to be confrontational, but I also want to respect Rob and help them feel supported.

    1. LizB*

      If you have a decent rapport with these managers, I’d point it out to them a little more directly. “By the way, Jill, I noticed you keep referring to Rob as Roberta, and as “she” — I just wanted to make sure you knew that they actually use “they” pronouns, and Roberta isn’t the right name to call them!”

      If I give them the benefit of the doubt, they may just not have noticed your subtle corrections, especially if they haven’t encountered many people who use they/them pronouns before. And if they did notice but have a negative response to a more direct correction… well, that’s data for you to consider in your interactions with them.

      Also, any chance you can change the name that appears on the schedule? Even by just crossing it out and writing in the correct one? That’s gotta be frustrating for Rob and confusing for other folks in the workplace.

    2. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

      I think you should speak to Rob first. It is possible that, being the newest person, they don’t want to immediately risk a confrontation with the Big Bosses.

      1. LunaLena*

        This is what I thought too. Maybe they don’t want to risk a confrontation, but it’s also possible that it isn’t that big of a deal to Rob. I hate my first name with a fiery passion and go by my middle name, and while I cringe every time someone uses it (like at the doctor’s office; it happens often even though I have my middle name logged as my preferred name), it’s just a tiny blip on my radar.

        I would talk to Rob first, and then assure them that you are ready to go to bat for them if the name issue is or gets uncomfortable for them.

        1. quirkypants*

          I just want to caution that for folks who are trans or non-binary it often moves beyond just a name they don’t like.

          By using the wrong name and wrong pronoun it can feel like you’re constantly being misgendered, constantly being told you’re not “really” a man, a woman, or non-binary person. It can go far beyond what cis/non-trans folks can understand.

          It is possible they will not want to make a big deal out of it but it could be for their physical safety, fear of discrimination or harrassment, etc. Things that you wouldn’t even need to worry about if you corrected people to use a different name.

          I know your comment was well-meaning but I thought it was worth the OP and others reading about WHY misgendering is way different than just using a name someone doesn’t prefer.

    3. Not Me*

      I would definitely be more direct. Depending on where you’re located there might be laws protecting Rob’s gender identity and your managers could be running afoul of them.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Presumably you know this about Rob because they told you. I’d be more direct with the folks up the food chain and see about getting the schedule name changed. If this is also something that needs to be changed with payroll, then I’d find out how to do that, too.

    4. fposte*

      Is there a reason why Rob’s name can’t be Rob on the schedule? It seems unusual to have a “legal names only” policy. And if your pseudonyms are analogous, it may feel more to the other managers like somebody who’s moving to “Liz” from “Elizabeth,” where it’s a nickname thing, not a deadname thing.

      I do think you could correct them in the moment now and then by saying matter-of-factly that Rob’s pronouns are they and them, remember, and we’ll all get better at that with practice. But I think also you’re right to consider how much confrontation makes sense here, since there’s a risk to Rob as well as you if managers’ first thought about them is associated with friction. So make sure there’s plenty of other communication to balance it out–and understand that it’s not likely you’ll get complete success on this.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        It might be software related, if the scheduling software is part of the payroll software.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            One would hope. I know several women whose IT departments “couldn’t” change their email after they divorced & went back to their birth names. And some whose IT departments set up the email as hyphenated last names even though they weren’t. Having a screen-display name that doesn’t match your naming-convention email address is the pits.

            1. Clever Name*

              Funny how that works. I bet that same system has no problem changing a birth name to a married name, though.

              I had such a tough time reverting to my original name in many cases. Some places just took my word for it, but other places wanted a certified copy of my divorce decree. They wouldn’t accept my current drivers license!

              1. Qwerty*

                If it makes you feel better, I know of plenty of women who had the same issue going from birth name to married name.

                Then there’s the friend who got married a month into her job and tried warning IT to just set up her account under the married name. They couldn’t because the system had to use the name on her hiring paperwork and she hadn’t changed it yet. For months after getting married, she struggled with IT to get them to change her name in the system but they couldn’t. By the time IT fixed it, she was filing for divorce and had to start the name change process all over again.

        2. RetailManager*

          fposte, to That Girl from QAuinn’s House’s point, if their scheduling software is tied to payroll they will definitely not be able to change the name. I recently asked our HR department on behalf of a trans employee who has not been able to get their legal name changed yet. Because our scheduling system is tied to the one for payroll, and the payroll system uses the name tied to our SSNs, we can’t change their name. We have settled for whiteout and writing in their proper name, with said employee’s consent.

    5. Dittany*

      I’d be direct. For a lot of people, the concept of gender variance is barely on their radars; they might not know that what they’re doing is inappropriate. Be polite but matter-of-fact, as if OF COURSE they would never be so disrespectful as to deliberately misgender an employee.

      You might even present it in the context of updating Rob’s employee file to show the correct name and gender, which would kill two birds with one stone.

    6. Joielle*

      I don’t think you need to make a scene (yet), but start by correcting them every time they use the wrong name or pronouns.

      “Roberta said to me -”
      “It’s Rob. Anyways, Rob said what to you?”

      “She’s going to -”
      “They. They’re going to do what?”

      Don’t worry about interrupting – just jump in, make a quick correction, and get the conversation back on track. That might be all it takes… your managers might decide that using the correct name and pronouns is easier than being corrected ten times a day. And if/when Rob overhears this, I think it’ll mean a lot to them that you’re trying.

      And yeah, there’s gotta be a way to get the schedule corrected. I’d push pretty hard on that to whoever makes the schedule. It’s a software issue and we don’t know how to change it? Great, what’s the tech support number so I can call and figure it out? Or, like LizB said, can you physically cross out, or white out, the deadname and rewrite the correct name?

      2. Qwerty*

        If it’s a software issue, there’s seems to be a correlation between the start of a new year and name changes. I think it may have something to do with open enrollment for healthcare gives them a window when it is safe to delete and recreate an employee profile if the software doesn’t allow for changing the name.

      3. quirkypants*

        Great suggestions.

        Another approach I’ve used is to play dumb… Harder to do with a superior but when they say the wrong the name, stop them and say, “Roberta? Who?” Or if they say “she”, say, “Wait, she? I thought we were talking about Rob?” “Oh, you meant Rob? I got confused when you used the wrong pronoun/name.”

    7. quirkypants*

      In terms of the employee schedule, I’d see if you can directly call the folks who manage the schedule software and ask them if there is a way to change the display name.

      I’ve worked places where this was done when legal names don’t match up to people’s chosen names, the most common example has been employees who use a different name after immigrating, i.e. adopting an “English” name in daily life.

  20. Eukomos*

    So I made a real rookie mistake yesterday in the job search. Applied for a job that is outside my current industry, and sent them my normal resume…which says I’m looking for work in my current industry. The cover letter has the right business/industry/job title on it, but the resume was clearly not tailored. Would emailing them and saying “I uploaded the wrong resume, please use this other one instead” help, or would it just draw attention to the mistake?

    1. Ditherr*

      I think a quick, matter-of-fact correction that explains the reason (“please refer to this updated resume; I inadvertently submitted an older version that doesn’t reflect my interest to switch industries. I regret the error.”) can’t hurt, if you think it really looks *wrong*, like in your statement/objective line or something.

      1. Eukomos*

        Yeah, it’s part of the profile section. Probably better than looking like I didn’t notice. Attention to detail was never going to be my strongest argument for my candidacy anyway, I guess.

  21. Anon for this*

    Can a person learn how to bill Medicaid from scratch – with no previous insurance billing experience?
    Our biller left without notice, and my boss thinks I can learn to do all the billing. I will try but am doubtful.

    1. Antilles*

      I seriously doubt it. I do other government invoicing (not Medicaid billing) and it’s just a pain to pick up. There’s just too many finicky details, specific formatting, back-and-forth discussions, etc that needs to be done. If your boss was cool with a steep learning curve and getting bills rejected regularly for a few months while you figured out all the paperwork, maybe, but I kinda doubt that.
      Especially not if (as I’m interpreting this), you will just be doing this as an additional duty. If you were directly shifted into billing, could have the company send you to training, then spend 40 hours a week trying to figure it out, then maybe…but not if you’re just trying to squeeze it in. Why do you think your company was previously employing a billing specialist in the first place?

      1. yay november*

        I agree with this. If the boss is fine with not getting the money, then by all means. But otherwise, this is something that is a skill that you’ll have to learn and that will take time, and it would be better if your job hired someone who already knew how to do it. And if you’re just going to do it along with everything else you’re doing, thus not giving you time to gain expertise? Uh.

        1. The Blue Marble*

          I do Medicaid billing and I agree that there is a steep learning curve and TONS of billing rules that you will need to learn. Compound that with the fact that you have to have knowledge of general insurance billing such as the billing forms, medical coding, revenue codes, provider information, individual patient insurance coverage detail, secondary insurance billing (which can be different for each individual payer), and learning a brand new software including how to work denials, send appeals, corrected claims. I would be very leery of this. In fact, my new Medicaid billing staff are often on extended probation for 6 months just due to all of the above.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I mean, not quickly, and probably not without a trainer. There’s reasons we’re specialists with certifications.

    3. Art3mis*

      There are classes you can taking on medical coding. Usually doctors offices want people with certifications and experience for those types of jobs though. Messing it up can cause problems and delays in claims being paid. As someone who processes claims for a health care insurance carrier, I would heavily advise against not having a trained coder/biller do this. We sometimes get claims that are clearly done by an independent Dr (usually a therapist it seems) trying to save money and they are often not done right and have to be denied or returned.

    4. Dittany*

      It’s doable? The main skills you need are:

      – Knowledge of the major code sets – ICD-10 and HCPCS – and basic billing concepts. A good memory for really, really similar-sounding acronyms also helps. You don’t need to know all of that by heart, but you need to know enough about them to know where to look for answers.
      – ATTENTION. TO. DETAIL.
      – Being willing to ask stupid questions, and not taking it personally when the Medicaid rep you’re talking to sounds like your idiocy has made them lose the will to live.

      That said, it’s going to be a VERY steep learning curve, especially if there’s no one else in the office with insurance billing experience. Your boss needs to suck it up and hire a new biller.

      If that’s not possible, get them to spring for a training course on billing and coding. (If they push back on that, politely remind them that there’s a reason why most billing jobs require a CPC certification or similar.) Check out your local community college or trade school; you can also take supplemental training courses via AAPC (American Association of Professional Coders) or one of the other trade organizations, like AHIMA. I’d also go into the forums and see if you can connect with someone who’s familiar with whatever state’s Medicaid you’re dealing with, since it can vary wildly from state to state.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks to all for confirming my suspicions. I would be doing it as overtime on Saturdays. I will see what plays out, do what I can, and start looking elsewhere the first of the year. It’s a well-meaning but dysfunctional place. We don’t even have an EMR system.

      2. Antilles*

        The most important skill check is the boss: His willingness to have claims go unpaid (i.e., no money coming in!) for weeks and months while Medicaid keeps rejecting your invoices since you didn’t do it correctly.

    5. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      My friend is an educational intervention therapist (PT/OT/SLP) and her district bills to Medicaid. She and all the other therapists have to learn how to do this on the job, though she’d only be billing the services she provided so that might be different than running billing for someone else.

    6. WellRed*

      If you mess up billing Medicaid, your company can be on the hook for thousands in the event of an audit.

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I’d also be afraid of accusations of fraud if they just even suspect you’re billing for services not rendered — which would be easy to do if you aren’t aware of codes and procedures.

        1. Old and Don’t Care*

          Yes. Proceed with caution, OP, for all the reasons above. Industries vary, and some might not be that complicated. If, however, you are in the long term care business I would not touch this with a 39 and 1/2 foot pole.

    8. HRAssist86*

      I learned from scratch. There are plenty of free online materials- even Medicare has a step by step guide on how to submit CMS-1500 claim forms.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        “How to submit forms” and “how to complete forms in a manner that is accurate, will stand up to audit and will get you paid” are totally different beasts. I’ve been doing this professionally for fifteen years and there’s still aspects of it I’m not 100% positive on.

  22. Ditherr*

    Dual-career academic couples: I want your tips! My spouse and I are considering making a big move out of a major city to somewhere closer to our families, that still has a lot of universities nearby. How do you time who applies to which position(s) first? What makes it “worth it”, in your opinion, to upend your life for a much-desired change of scenery?

    1. Hope*

      Honestly, you just both apply everywhere. Whoever gets something worth moving for first is what you go with. If you’re lucky, maybe the university has another position open they can refer the spouse to. Given how long academic hiring can take, there’s no way to easily time your searches together.

      Exceptions: –If one of you is a rockstar in your field, maybe let them be the first applying.
      –If one of you has tenure and can have that tenure confirmed in a new position, go with that.

      My spouse and I were very lucky that a practically perfect position for me opened at spouse’s university a year after we got married, and I was able to apply and get it (before that, I had an hour commute). We’re insanely lucky it happened that way, and it did help that we’re in different fields, because no way would two positions have opened up at the same location in either of the fields we’re in. If you’re going to a place with multiple universities, the odds are definitely more in your favor.

    2. deesse877*

      If one of you is or presents as a woman, that person should go first, regardless of other factors, because otherwise the institutional and social forces pushing her into “trailing spouse” status are nigh irresistible, ESPECIALLY at smaller and regional schools. If both of you are or present as women, whoever has the rougher job market should go first.

      The principles behind this advice are (a) general liberal feminism, obviously, and (b) a strong sense that the smaller and less metropolitan an institution gets, the more socially conservative it is. In my experience, (b) holds true even for high-prestige schools and ones with strong countercultural vibes.

      For what it’s worth, obviously; good luck in any case.

      1. deesse877*

        To be clear, I’m pretty sure my advice holds even where spouses are employed at different institutions. THe cultural programming is that strong.

  23. Anxious Anon*

    Interactions of work and personal: my friend got fired yesterday, and it’s really freaking me out.

    We work for the same company, but in totally different departments, locations, job duties, etc. We were friends before this job, and I encouraged her to apply to this company. She hasn’t actually told me what happened, but it might have something to do with an accusation of harassment? And I’m just super anxious about it, for some reason. I’ll see her tomorrow (we had a girls day planned anyway) and hear more then, but it’s really hard to get out of my head. It is VERY hard to fire someone in this company, so either the accusation was founded (which would be shocking to me given all my experiences of her), or she was well down the progressive discipline path already and didn’t tell me (which would be her right, obvi). I’m just spiraling a bit. It’s a weird day.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’m sorry you’re feeling awful and that your friend got fired. Since you already have a planned get together, I think the best thing you can do right now is to not allow yourself to speculate and beat yourself up with worry. You are going to get more information tomorrow, so in the meantime there’s no use in borrowing trouble.

      I know that’s not always easy and you can’t just logic yourself into feeling better, but here’s a silly technique I like to do when something I can’t do anything about is bothering me. I visualize putting the intrusive thought/feeling in a box, closing the lid, and putting that box away on a shelf. If I start to think about it, I tell myself “nope, that feeling is packed away. I will take the box down and address it later, but right now it is on the shelf so I’m not going to feel that/worry about it right now.”

      It’s super silly but I’ve found it helpful. I hope everything is ok with your friend and that you have a calm rest of your day!

    2. Wishing You Well*

      I’m sorry your friend was fired. Maybe texting her before your day out would help you.
      A ‘girls’ day’ sounds good but plan ahead of time to end it early if you have to. In the end, this is her problem to deal with. You can support her but not past the point it’s affecting your health or peace of mind.
      I hope things work out in the best possible way for you both.

    3. Kathenus*

      Not meaning to add to your stress on this, but be cautious about how you balance being a friend to her related to the firing (not the being her friend in general) and being an employee of the company. You can be a friend and be there for her, but it’s easy to fall into the trap that being ‘for’ her means being ‘against’ your company. Try to keep your work life and friendship as separate as possible right now so that you don’t inadvertently end up in a bad place with your management – to avoid a perception that you are taking sides in any way.

      1. hermit crab*

        This exactly – but it can be so, so hard. A couple years ago my long-time friend (who I had recruited to come work at the company years before; everyone knew we were BFFs) was laid off from the firm where we both worked. It wasn’t a firing, but the message from management was “Hermit Crab and Friend have very similar skill sets; we can only keep one of you and we’re choosing Hermit Crab.” Talk about survivor’s guilt, especially since I was already planning to leave.

        My advice is to be kind to yourself! Of course it’s best to support your friend while also remaining professional w/r/t work – but don’t beat yourself up if you find it hard to strike that delicate balance.

    4. Qwerty*

      Some people don’t realize that they are on the path to being fired. Be aware that you likely won’t be getting the full story from her, just as much of her perspective that she’s willing to share/vent about. It can be hard to find the middle ground of being supportive of your friend without turning against your company.

      It may also be a good idea to text her to see if she still wants to meet up for the girls day? Allow her the option to back out if she needs to be alone right now, or to hang out and talk about it or hang out and *not* talk about it.

  24. dealing with dragons*

    New project manager keeps scheduling meetings after 5pm for the next day’s morning. Last night he scheduled a 9:30am meeting at nearly 7pm. My first normal meeting is at 10am, so generally after 5 I assume no new morning meetings. None of them are urgent or make or break the project.

    I am addressing it but just want to validate that it’s not normal lol

    1. rayray*

      Poor planning and communication is definitely common, but should not be the norm, nor should people be expected to just smile and go along with it. I think it might be a good idea to say something, and be sure to point out that when it’s scheduled that late, people might not see it till they’re just getting in for work the day of that morning meeting and won’t be prepared.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I try to avoid it, but sometimes I (a PM) get contacted late in the day by some other project stakeholder who wants a meeting at a certain time, or it’s the only time that works the next day for the whole group of people that need to get together to discuss a new hot issue. 9:30 doesn’t sound terrible, unless you have a special schedule. If it was 7 am, I’d be annoyed, but I assume you get there at 8 or 8:30 and have time to see the notice prior to meeting time, and they aren’t asking you to prep something new for the meeting. My most recent project sponsor liked to start things at 7:00 or 7:30 am and would text you if you had not joined the call by 6:59.

      1. dealing with dragons*

        I usually show up at around 9 or 9:30, which most of his office (he is in Toronto) does as well due to the trains. It’s mostly that the email came after business hours for a first thing meeting for something non urgent.

    3. S-Mart*

      It depends on the working hours expectations of the company. Here it wouldn’t be all that unusual. We’re expected to be in the office as of 9:00 am. So long as the meeting didn’t require any prep work on my behalf, I wouldn’t even bat an eye at coming in to a meeting notice for 30 minutes after I start.

      1. yay november*

        Same. The only times it would bug me is if it were for my exact start time, because something my computer or Outlook has delays in starting up, so I might be 10 minutes late to a meeting I didn’t know about.

      2. dealing with dragons*

        working hours are 9ish-5 for this office, 9:30 to 4:30 for his office (toronto public transportation). It’s really less the time and more that it was sent with no warning or agenda at 7pm the night before, so even if I was in at 9 I would have no way to be prepared with the lack of context.

    4. yay november*

      This wouldn’t be abnormal here. If you’re already got a working relationship with him (you’re on a project together) and he can see your calendar that you’re free, and it’s during your working hours, putting something on someone else’s calendar isn’t a big deal here. But in my place, that meeting would be virtual or in the same building or campus, so it’s not like someone is putting on my calendar for me to go across town on no notice.

    5. ChachkisGalore*

      Really depends on the company/culture. One place I worked this would be completely normal, however that place was very clear that after hours connectivity was expected (and they compensated employees accordingly/provided appropriate benefits). Roughly – anything that came up via email in waking hours (6am-10pmish) would be expected to have been seen. It wasn’t expected that everything be addressed, but it was expected that emails were at least monitored for time sensitive items. The meeting content might not be time sensitive but the fact the meeting was scheduled for early the next morning, as long as it was within normal office hours, would be considered time sensitive (if that makes sense…)

      My current company – it would not be normal. If an early morning meeting was absolutely required, but not scheduled until after office hours I would expect a direct call/text message and even then, if I did not acknowledge or directly confirm that I would be at the early meeting I would probably not be “blamed” for missing the meeting.

      Sounds like your office is definitely in the not normal camp, but this PM might be coming from a place where it was normal. He needs to adjust, obviously, but this can be normal so I wouldn’t be too hard on them (at first – if they continue to do this, then they’re being obtuse or a jerk).

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      What I am caught on is the 10am start time . I wouldn’t give it a second thought scheduling someone for a 9:30am meeting even pretty late at night the day before because I would expect them to see the 9:30am meeting when they got in at 7:30 (or 8 or even 8:30am). If you have something very specific that means that your morning is blocked, that is unusual and I think you have to call their attention to that. Now, I do feel quite a bit differently when people schedule me for very early meetings (think 7am or even 7:30) late the night before.

      1. dealing with dragons*

        Its not that I *have* a 10 am start time, it’s that it’s my first meeting on Friday.

        And while I am a morning person, I use that time for exercise and dog-taking-care of, so I get in later than what is apparently the norm for you. I get in at a reasonable time for my office, and a lot of it had to do with it being Halloween.

        There was also no agenda for the meeting and as far as I could tell was just a whim he decided needed discussed outside of our already outstanding 1pm meeting every day.

    7. KR*

      Nope not norm in my experience. And it’s a pain in the butt especially with flex work hours. What if I’m not stressing about the clock this morning because as far as I’m aware I don’t have meetings, so I’m not in early enough to attend or be prepared? People like your coworker are the reason I put my work email/calendar on my cell phone and always bring my work laptop home just in case

  25. Sharkie*

    Just venting…… I finally took a personal day today. Yesterday my Boss came to me and told me I had to come in this morning because he forgot about a doctor’s appointment……. OYE

    1. rayray*

      That just doesn’t seem fair at all. What if your personal day involved important matters, just as important as a doctor’s appointment? I don’t suggest sassing your boss, but it would be nice to be able to use the line “Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part”.

    2. Mop Head*

      That is not just unfair but completely unprofessional on the part of your boss. Is your personal day being replaced?

        1. WellRed*

          Did you ask for a different day? I wonder what he would have said if you had told him, “I have a dr’s appointment, too?”

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Channel your inner Alison and tell him you’re going to retake take it –or the # hours you had to cover — in a tone that reflects absolute ‘OF COURSE’ this is happening, because it’s so obviously the right thing to do to get it comped quickly. And I’d say “…this coming week, does Tuesday or Thursday work better for you?” , using a choice-of-tw phrasing.

  26. Matilda Jefferies*

    Looking for tips and/or resources on meeting facilitation, especially when the meeting members are at the senior management level.

    I did a presentation yesterday for a handful of SVPs. It went fine, but there was a lot of chitchat that I would have liked to control a bit better, as we ran out of time for some of the points where I actually needed their input. Their conversations weren’t necessarily off-topic, just that each of them went on a minute or two longer than I had anticipated – which adds up, over the course of an hour-long presentation.

    So I’ve already figured out that I need to revise the content (less overview, get directly to the questions), and allow more time for each point. I can figure out the content, and I have no problem with nerves or public speaking – I just need some help with the facilitation part. (For context, I’m a program manager, and I’ve been with the organization about two months. One of the SVPs is my grandboss, who I have a good relationship with, and I’ve met the others a handful of times.)

    TL;DR – how do I control the conversation during a presentation to senior management, while still keeping the tone friendly and informal?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Throw the agenda and the clock under the bus.

      – “I’m afraid I’m gonna have to stop you there because we’re a bit pressed for time.”
      – “That’s a good point, and we’ll be discussing that in a few moments during another agenda item.”
      – “Shoot, clearly I should have allotted more time for this agenda item. Can we move the conversation offline now, though, and get back on track, thanks!”
      – “I want to be respectful of your time and wrap up the meeting in schedule. Let’s move on to the next item. If we have more to discuss, let’s bring it to e-mail going forward.”

      Toss a couple of “sorry”s in there if you want to for social nicety, maybe. I’m sure you can see the line between being gently self-deprecating versus opening a door to allowing the attendees to blame you for failing to keep the meeting on track.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I am a senior person. It is helpful for me to know at the outset what the goal is, otherwise I’m left guessing and trying to answer questions and provide input, or worse, because I don’t know what the target is, I can’t pick out what is important and what isn’t. So start the meeting with a quick — “We’re here because we need to get a decision on the teapot size requirements.” Also — let the decision makers ask questions. Almost invariably people provide me with information that they think is important to the decision, but it isn’t and they drown me in irrelevant detail. If what you want is a decision — let the decision makers tell you want information they need.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Oh, that’s helpful – thanks! I did start with the agenda, but I didn’t highlight those key parts. If I had started with “I need your input on the size requirements and the glazing strategies I’ve developed, but first we need to take ten minutes to go over the project plan,” would that have helped?

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          Yes, start by very specifically telling me what decision you want from me. I note that as a senior person I pay zero attention as the meeting organizer rattles off the agenda. Instead say, my name and what decision is needed to grab my attention. All that said my next question would have been “why we need to take ten minutes to go over the project plan”? Again, tell me why we have to do that. My time and focus are being pulled in a million different directions and I don’t have time for a lot of presentation.

  27. Lana Kane*

    I’m a supervisor, with a manager who reports directly to a VP. We used to have a couple of layers between Manager and VP, but when those two people moved on to other roles the positions were not filled. Manager now is fulfilling all of these roles, which means they have a very full plate.

    I am one of 3 supervisors, and in terms of tenure in the dept, the most senior. Because of Manager’s schedule, there are gaps in operational oversight because they used to handle those. I have no problem with how Manager has been trying to balance all of this, and I like working with them. The issue is, the gaps are still there. I can handle some of them, but I start to worry I’m overstepping when I do just handle them (for my teams only, not other supervisors’ teams).

    I’ve brought this up and asked, “How can I help?” and “Am I overstepping?”I get vague answers about how they trust me, but nothing concrete. I’m still left wondering when I’m overstepping and when I’m ok to act. Since I can’t get an answer, any ideas on how to balance this so that operational needs are met, but I’m not wildly out of my lane?

    1. Kathenus*

      I’d suggest a more strategic approach. For the gaps that you can/want to handle, suggest to your manager that they become your responsibility so that it’s clear that you will be handling them versus worrying about whether it’s OK or not. That’s if you want to do so and can fit it into your workload (or re-prioritize other tasks to do so). So instead of filling the gaps on a case by case basis, try to establish task assignments for the gaps so that everyone knows how they are being handled in the new staffing reality.

  28. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

    I have a question about scientific writing. I hope it’s OK to post it on a Friday: at least for me, it’s work!

    I have been told a few times to avoid using semicolons, but the advice usually comes from other non-native English speakers, so I need a confirmation that this is true. I do use it quite a bit, both because in my native language is common and because, in scientific writing, sentences tend to become very long and complex; a semicolon* helps breaking the complexity. Opinions? Is semicolon really to be avoided at all costs? I will appreciate the input of creative writers also, even though scientific writing is a different animal.

    *see what I did there? :3

    1. fposte*

      I’m a native English speaker and I love semicolons. However, I have to be thoughtful about their use, because they generally make sentences really long, and if they don’t, they create a structure that can irritate upon repetition. So I try not to do two semicolon-ed together sentences in a row and I check to keep the length of those sentences down.

      1. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

        This is what I have been doing, and I am also writing shorter and simpler sentences, since the subject itself is already complicated. But I was curious to hear the opinion of native speakers!

      2. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

        There are absolutely times when a semicolon is the perfect thing to use. As fposte noted, you have to be careful that you aren’t making your sentence too long and complicated, but I can think of no reason to implement an outright ban on them.

        I mean, I do mostly newswriting, a form of writing in which semicolons are fairly uncommon. But even in newswriting, they are still used.

    2. Sharkie*

      What format are you using?

      I found the semicolon helpful so it might just be a personal style preference.

    3. Sleepy*

      Avoid using semicolons? I’ve never heard that advice, and I’m a native English speaker.

      In some types of work writing, especially writing intended for the public, it’s good practice to avoid long, complex sentences in the first place, so there would be no need to use semicolons. I’m not sure this would apply scientific writing though.

      Overall, my advice would be to be sure that you are using them correctly; as long as you are, I see no problem.

    4. The Grammarian*

      It’s better to use shorter sentences that don’t require semicolons, unless this is scientific writing for a scholarly journal.

      1. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

        I am indeed writing a paper for an academic journal! Which is what makes it so confusing, because I know different rules apply here. Also, since authors are from all over the world, reading many paper is not always helpful, as it is not always obvious to me who is writing with proper grammar and who is not. I personally find papers written in very short sentences difficult to read, because it makes causal relationships more difficult to see. But that could well be because it’s a very different style to what I’m used to!

        2. Triumphant Fox*

          When the causal links get confusing, or you’re unsure what the object/subject of a sentence is anymore, it’s typically because the author has used too many pronouns in consecutive sentences. For English speakers, long sentences get frustrating because we tend to think of a sentence as a single thought. If that thought goes on for too long, it’s hard to hold onto it and you can lose the meaning.

    5. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      They’re not to be avoided at all costs, but they’re frequently overused imo. In a lot of cases you should just use a conjunction (which is what I would do in your example, personally) or bite the bullet and commit to a hard stop. It’s kind of a wishy-washy punctuation mark, I think, because you’re trying to tie two independent clauses together without going so far as to specify what their relationship actually is.

    6. yay november*

      Native English speaker: I love semi-colons! However, there might be an underlying issue where your sentence is already long and confusing, so adding a semi-colon might be a sign to just break the sentence into pieces for clarity.

    7. anonhere*

      Semicolons are perfectly good punctuation! When used correctly; that’s the tricky part. The previous sentence is an example of correct usage. I’m not sure I can explain very well; I don’t actually remember much of the technical terminology for grammar. However, using a comma instead of a semicolon in the previous sentence would *not* have been correct; that’s called a “comma splice” and it’s terrible grammar. Basically (if I recall correctly) a semicolon should be interchangeable with a period (full stop) but *not* a comma or colon.

      If it’s not presumptuous to offer another bit of grammar advice? “helps breaking the complexity” is perfectly understandable, but not correct for formal situations; “helps reduce the complexity” would be the way to put it in formal writing such as reports or dissertations, and “helps break up the complexity” is fine for less formal situations.

      By the way, this post has used a *lot* more semicolons in rapid succession than I would ever recommend to a creative writer, but I don’t know whether or not repetition is an issue in more technical writing.

      Good luck with whatever you’re doing! I didn’t appreciate how much of a pain English is until I started studying a *logical* language.

      1. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

        Your second piece of advice (much appreciated, BTW) is the core of the issue: writing an academic paper is a very specific task which requires very specific language. I read a lot of book in English, and I read a lot of papers too, of course. But I feel like I haven’t learned anything from those papers: there’s too many different styles, too many different nationalities, journals have different language standards, and sometimes perfect clarity can come with not-so-perfect grammar. I have noticed that my originally British English has been changed by the interaction with so many non-native speakers, and I am not sure of the rules anymore.

        As an aside, I also agree with your last sentence: it’s surprising, how English is easy if you stick to the basics, and becomes incredibly complex if you go deeper. I also recently studied a new language, which on-paper has a more complex grammar, but I found it so much easier to learn!

      2. Qwerty*

        A semicolon is not interchangeable with a period. They are for that awkward space when you need something stronger than a comma but without the full-stop that a period has. The Grammarly blog has a good explanation with examples.

        If your scientific papers are intended for an international audience, it is worth considering that your current usage makes it difficult for non-native speakers to read. At that point it doesn’t really matter what the threshold is for “proper” English. If it is too many for your readers to understand than it is obscuring your content, which is the more important item.

    8. Yorick*

      I’m a native English speaker and I write (social) science reports and do use semicolons. But I also try to keep sentences short (2 lines or less if possible), so I’ll often split it into 2 sentences instead.

    9. Falling Diphthong*

      I have randomly opened a copy of Science News and a Scientific American Special Collection: no semicolons. As others have suggested, I think it reflects an attempt to make the piece easier to read by breaking up long sentences.

      Who is giving you the advice? Because I expect it’s not random passersby–if it’s people who are supposed to give feedback on your writing, then this is akin to being told the house style is free of semicolons.

      1. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

        It’s not the editors (yet), just some of my colleagues, including some senior ones, and I heard it around as well. But don’t worry: I have no intention of going off to war with senior scientists over the use of semicolon :)
        I have followed their advice and edited many of my semicolons, my question was more out of curiosity. I have encountered semicolons in other papers, but I am not sure if it can be an influence of the authors’ native language. Some American authors use them, though!

        1. The Grammarian*

          Perhaps you should check the APA style guidelines, or whatever style guide your workplace/school follows?

        2. Not a cat*

          I write technical (as in software) whitepapers, help files and other documentation. I use semicolons but not a great deal. Several years ago an editor on my team (who is also an adjunct english lit prof) declared war on the semicolon. Every peer-edit became an argument

    10. deesse877*

      This advice often circulates among second-language speakers, and as others have pointed out, it’s not really valid advice from an academic perspective. It can indeed be good advice in some business contexts, journalism, PR and so on, because it means the text will be clear even to inexpert or distracted readers. Your colleagues may simply be extending the advice from another context, or they may have internalized the idea that it’s somehow “foreign” (and indeed, you do note that it’s partially a carryover from your first language). But honestly, one main reason the advice survives is that it’s so simple to implement, and many writing problems are not that easy to fix. If you’re sure that your usage is within norms set by native speakers in your field, go for it.

      1. Queen of the File*

        I think the plain language advice is spreading because, even outside of fields that write specifically for the general public, we are becoming more inclusive of a variety of reader experiences. Avoiding long, complex sentences in informational writing is helpful if people are in a hurry, reading on a screen, etc.–even if the reader is an expert.

    11. OlympiasEpiriot*

      People who have had to rely on MSWord’s grammar suggestions for improving their writing seem to be mostly in technical fields. MSWord hates semicolons and the passive voice. I long ago turned off the grammar checker after it underlined about 80% of a report I wrote: It hated my compound sentences, my terminal commas, my use of the passive voice when describing what happened to soil samples (NO way to put that in the active, so sorry!), kept correcting British English in quotations, and didn’t like my industry-specific jargon. I needed to be able to distinguish the spellchecker notifications from everything else.

      Personally, I love semicolons; however, I also choose to read Henrys Fielding (18th C.) and James (19th C.) when I’m ill enough to be in bed but not ill enough to sleep for 24 hours.

    12. Liane*

      Native (USA) English speaker, Zoology BS. My lab TAs/professors didn’t say not to use semicolons when talking about scientific writing; nor did my English teachers/professors. ( But I don’t recall seeing them in the medical transcriptions I edited.) However, as others mentioned, it’s hard to know when to use them–even when you are a native speaker–because it’s not really taught beyond, “Semicolons are sort of used like periods but much less often.” That might be why your non-native colleagues suggest not using semicolons.

    13. texpat*

      Native English speaker with a bachelor’s in English and creative writing (but no scientific writing experience–except reading over my STEM major friends’ lab reports). Semicolons are fine. Some people have a bias against them, like the English teacher I had in high school who banned them from his classroom, but as long as you’re using them correctly, they are absolutely fine. You need to watch out for clumps of very long and dense sentences, of course, but you’d need to do that anyway, semicolons or not.

    14. Wishing You Well*

      Review Strunk and White’s “Elements of Style” on semicolons to make sure you’re using them correctly. Then observe any additional rules that your boss/prof/editor/industry is demanding. Other than that, write as you please! ;)

    15. Goldfinch*

      I would base my writing on 1.) the style guide the journal follows, and 2.) some sample pieces from previous volumes of the journal. Can you look up old copies on JSTOR or Sci-Hub?

      I’m currently working on a white paper for ASCE, and I went straight to their website for the style manual put out by their codes and standards committee.

    16. Amy Sly*

      Semicolons are useful for combining independent clauses when you either don’t want the complete separation of thoughts caused by simply ending the clause with the sentence or don’t want to use one of the coordinating conjunctions — and, so, but, yet, or, for, nor — to combine the two thoughts. They tend to work best to break up a series of lengthy sentences with the occasional short concept. Used too often, they lose their punch, and so the rule I was taught was no more than once every double-spaced page; that’s roughly 250 words.

    17. Close Bracket*

      I am a scientist and scientific editor! I understand completely. My advice is that for scientific writing, err on the side of shorter sentences. I do use semicolons in my own writing and in editing the writing of others, but I think they are actually best used when joining two short-to-medium sentences. In fact, the way you used one is perfect! The first clause is long is and complex; the second clause is short and to the point. And look what I did!

      1. StillAChemist*

        Native Engliah speaker + chem PhD + currently also writing a journal submission: I love semicolons and my old advisor pushed hard for me to go to simpler sentences. I now use the semicolon in submission writing only when critical or when it improves clarity. Although scientific writing has been very sense/hard to follow, historically, I think for the newer generations the trend is to make it easier to understand.

    18. Platypus Enthusiast*

      I don’t think you should stop using semicolons altogether, but I think it’s important to be aware of how often you’re using them. I was proofreading a classmate’s paper (which was sort of a rough draft for her thesis project), and I distinctly remember looking at one “paragraph” that was actually just 2 very long sentences with semicolons. I think if it’s possible to use break it down into two shorter sentences, you should. But sometimes, semicolons just work better. Best of luck writing and submitting!

    19. msgumby*

      Technical editor in scientific peer review here. Semicolons are very useful and oh so common in the reports I read. Don’t hesitate to use a semicolon, if appropriate.

    20. lost academic*

      I’m a native speaker and have written in industry, policy, government and academia.

      If you’re using a semicolon quite a bit, the chances are good that your sentences are longer than they should be. Once you’ve written a paragraph, page, or section, revisit the text and look at those long sentences, especially when you have a semicolon there. Consider how to break the sentence into more than one. The semicolon is fine when used correctly but it tends to get overused and reduces clarity.

    21. Clever Name*

      I do a lot of scientific technical writing and use semicolons often. I love semicolons; they are my favorite punctuation mark. ;)

    22. LilySparrow*

      I like them and use them frequently, to the point that I have to take a few out to avoid overusing the same sentence structures.

      The general trend in contemporary writing is toward shorter, simpler sentences. This is a stylistic fashion or convention. It’s not a grammar rule.

      Using semicolons will make your writing sound more formal or slightly old-fashioned. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. It all depends what you’re going for.

    23. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      I like semicolons, and use them regularly, or possibly overuse them, in my own writing. It isn’t always or inherently “wrong” to use them–or any established punctuation mark.

      That said, even if you agree to minimize semicolons, a “no semicolons at all” rule may get you in trouble, because one place semicolons are used is in lists, when some of the list items already have commas.

      For example, here is a list of cities: London, Paris, Rome, Amsterdam, and New Paltz. It uses no semicolons. If someone flagged “New Paltz” with “where’s that?” the rewrite would use semicolons: London; Paris; Rome; Amsterdam; and New Paltz, NY.

      In general, I would trust native speakers of a language on questions of this sort, especially if the non-native speakers are saying things like “my teacher said not to use semicolons” or “it’s just ungrammatical” rather than “please don’t use a lot of semicolons, they’re confusing.”

    24. Uhtceare*

      Native English speaker here… I do a lot of writing at an intersection of law and science. I like semicolons. I also like short sentences. Both have their uses.

      In your example, I wouldn’t use a semicolon. I’d break the sentence up instead. And though it’s been my experience that scientific sentences can become long and unwieldy, it’s also been my experience that there’s always a way to edit them down. However, sometimes shortening individual sentences requires adding more words overall, or requires that you completely restructure your thought. (Sometimes that’s a good thing; flipping the subject and object can do wonders!)

      My rule of thumb: consider shortening a sentence if that sentence covers more than 4 lines (of a letter page with normal margins). If the sentence is five lines or more, shorten it by any means necessary. Very, very few readers want to read something that they have to think through before thinking about.

    25. Hamburke*

      I use semicolons but they aren’t used in a lot of American writing – I get called out for the novelty of using them. They are barely taught in American schools, to be honest. I agree with whoever said that they are wishy-washy punctuation – if you want to be more clear (which is often the goal of science writing), use separate sentences, a conjunction or transition words.

  29. Mouse*

    What’s a good title for an executive assistant moving into a more strategic, project-management, “support and drive the priorities of the business as directed by the CEO” kind of role?

    1. Kevin*

      I was hired as a contract technical writer and then offered a full-time job basically doing whatever tasks the CEO and COO wanted me to do and they gave me the job of “special projects coordinator.” Which I’m not sure means anything but okay.

      1. OtterB*

        I like this. I work in higher education, not business, but I have coordinated some projects with people who have titles like “Special Assistant to the Dean” and it carries the implication that the person will be actively engaged in the details of projects the dean wants to see accomplished.

        1. Dorothy Zbornak*

          yes, I work as a special assistant to a VP at a university and this is pretty close to what I do.

    3. cmcinnyc*

      At my office, that describes a Chief of Staff or a Deputy Chief of Staff (depending on seniority/scope/authority).

    4. Jadelyn*

      We have a role like that that we call “Special Projects Manager”. In the past we used to call it “Special Assistant to the CEO” or just “Executive Staff”.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If the position reports to the CEO, it sounds like it could be a director level so:
      Director of Strategic Planning
      Director of Mission Integration
      Director of Special Projects

  30. Interim Supervisor*

    Next week, I know I’ll likely need to have a corrective conversation with a former peer who newly reports to me, and I’m nervous about it.

    Last week, “Susan” solicited negative feedback from clients who were working with one of our offsite employees, “Zena”, then shared the feedback with Zena via email. Zena is new to her job but working hard to get up to speed; from my perspective, we were lucky to get Zena in her role, as we had very few applicants for that job. Zena is now seriously demoralized. I knew that Susan had destroyed her own relationship with coworkers in the past, and now I’m seeing it happen before my eyes. We work in a small nonprofit, and I can’t afford to have Zena alienated or potentially quit.

    I know from working with her as a peer that Susan believes that behaviors such as this are a result of her “direct, East Coast working style” (we live on the West Coast), and something to be proud of.

    I’m in a new interim supervisory role (been in the role for less than a month), so I used to be peers with “Susan”. I’m struggling to step into my new role. It’s not my first time as a supervisor, but it’s my first time trying to supervise my former peers. Susan is a very high performer in terms of her core tasks, but I find her personality difficult. She seems unhappy that I’ve been promoted over her; I’ve tried to have conversations with her in my role as supervisor that were actually positive, praising her work, but whenever she seems to sense I’m acting as a supervisor she won’t look me in the eye.

    Any words of wisdom would be appreciated.

    1. Cat Fan*

      Tell Susan to bring concerns about her co-workers to you to deal with, and that she shouldn’t be addressing them herself.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, it sounds like Susan was trying to manage Zena, which isn’t her job even if she does it right. And she’s definitely not doing it right.

        1. Ama*

          Yeah, I had a coworker in the past who tried to manage me (she didn’t bother to solicit feedback from others, she’d just tell me I was doing something wrong — even though I wasn’t, it just wasn’t the way SHE would have done it) and she would not stop until I told our mutual manager what was happening and the manager put a stop to it. So if you can head this off now, I would, because it’s only going to get worse if Susan isn’t told to stop.

    2. Bloopmaster*

      Going out of your way to solicit negative feedback about someone who is not your direct report and then ambushing them with that feedback (rather than, say, taking potentially legitimate concerns that actually affect you to that person or up to that person’s manager) is not an “East Coast” thing. It’s a jerk thing.

      Please step in to tell Susan to stop this immediately. She doesn’t have to like you (or even make eye contact with you), she just has to respect your authority in this role. Then, make sure Zena knows that you consider what Susan did to be unacceptable.

      1. just a thought*

        Yeah, definitely talk to Zena and let her know this has happened before and isn’t personal. Also, that she should let you know if Susan does more stuff like this

      2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Yeah I was the person at work slammed for having a “direct, East-Coast working style” on the East Coast, and the sort of stuff I was slammed for was like, “Fergus, the class you’re teaching starts at 5, so you need to be here, dressed in your riding gear, and in the llama paddock with your equipment set up at 5, not walking in the door in your street clothes at 5:10” or “I’m sorry, we don’t allow riders to bring food from home to feed the llamas, since people food could make them sick,”

        Susan is just being a toxic drama llama bully.

      3. WellRed*

        All of this and she EMAILED the negative feedback. Even if it was her place to do any of this, that’s a face to face conversation. Not email, FFS!

    3. Me*

      I know you know this but as a east coast born and bred-er….that’s not direct, that’s being a jerk and has nothing to do with being from here.

      I think you just need to overall be clear and specific that x behavior is not okay and you need her to do y. If she is unsure how to do y, (since you know it’s just her style), you will work with her to coach her and perhaps even identify appropriate how not to be a jerk training.

      Short version – explicit instruction of what must stop and what must happen instead.

      Don’t get caught up in her personal difficulty reporting to you. It’s your job to manager her, not her feelings about you. If she looks at the floor this entire conversation, that’s fine. You’re only concern is that you are communicating what needs to change and she understands.

      Also, do not do the compliment sandwich or any other softening behavior. Which you also already probably know but in case it’s a helpful point to anyone else.

      1. Interim Supervisor*

        Thank you. I do *know* certain things, but I’m feeling overwhelmed in this new role, and it helps to get a reminder, honestly. Particularly that it’s my job to manager her work, not her feelings about me. And not to do the compliment sandwich!

      2. Parenthetically*

        Couldn’t agree more about managing Susan, not managing her feelings. Particularly when you’re dealing with someone who goes out of her way to be mean and then brags about her directness, it’s important to remember that she’s allowed to feel any kind of way she wants about you — she just has to behave in a professional way regardless of her feelings. And the behavior is what you’re trying to manage, not her emotions or motivations or anything else going on inside her head.

    4. Lana Kane*

      Susan is upset she was passed over for the promotion into our role.

      Susan is soliciting negative feeedback (!) and then delivering it to peers (!!)

      Susan may be thinking that this is how she should show that she should have taken your leadership role.

      If she is East Coast direct, she should not have a problem with you being direct with her. East Coast-direct presumably goes both ways, no? I’m not saying you should use her same tone, but rather that if she can give feedback, then she should be able to take it. As we all know, though, lots of people who pride themselves on being direct don’t always appreciate being on the receiving end. But this is good for you to have in your back pocket to help you be more confident in telling her to stop this behavior.

      What she did was extremely Not Cool, and she should be told to not do that again, and that any feedback needs to come to you. I also was promoted to manage my peers, and I had a Susan on my team. She liked to find people’s mistakes and give them feedback, in the guise of “wouldn’t you rather this come from me than from our boss?” Aside from how inappropriate that was, it was an attempt to make me seem unapproachable and punitive. It took a couple of conversations but she eventually stopped her behaviors.

      1. Interim Supervisor*

        Thank you for sharing. It’s encouraging to hear that you had a similar issue and you stopped it, even if it took several conversations.

        It’s upsetting and embarrassing to me that this happened on my watch.

        1. Lana Kane*

          Try not to see it that way! Pushy people will push because that’s how they find where the boundaries are. Set them for her!

    5. LQ*

      Susan, I understand that you want to be direct and want people to be direct with you. So I am telling you directly. This behavior is inappropriate. If you engage in it again we will begin down the discipline path. I understand that no one may have directly told you this, but you are damaging relationships with peers, part of your job is to have good relationships with your peers. Also your job is never to solicit negative feedback about a peer. If you do ever need to solicit feedback from clients I will clearly and directly work with you do do this. You should never engage in this behavior without clear direction from me. For now, and until you’ve clearly demonstrated that you understand this, if you have any feedback for your peers you should come to me and I will work with you to understand if that message needs to be conveyed to that peer. Do you understand this?

      (That may be a little strong, and my “I’m a direct East Cost” (aka jerk) person hated when I was direct with him so I’d guess yours may too, but this is what she’s asking of others.)

      1. Interim Supervisor*

        “Part of your job is to have good relationships with your peers” — an important point. And “if you have any feedback for your peers you should come to me and I will work with you to understand if that message needs to be conveyed to that peer.”

        Thank you.

      2. cmcinnyc*

        Yeah go “East Coast” on her, no softening. “You were out of line soliciting negative feedback from a client. You invited a client to find fault with our services. To me, that looks like you are trying to sabotage this business. Explain yourself.” And the second she says “Zena” you shut her down with “This is about you, Susan. YOU invited a client to dump on us.”

        Because what she did doesn’t fly here on the East Coast either.

      3. Thankful for AAM*

        LQ’s script is amazing!
        I said below that I am “east coast direct” and think this is both clear and deliciously direct.

        OP, use this script!!

    6. NW Mossy*

      Totally reasonable to be nervous – these are the “sweaty palms” conversations you get to have when you’re the manager! But the only way to get better at them is to have them and fight through the discomfort.

      When I had to have my first Very Serious conversation with a direct about a pattern of poor behavior, my then-boss (who’s a litigator by training) gave me a couple of great tips:

      * Talk a lot less than you think you need to. Get your point across in a few sentences and then shift to the point: what does Susan need to commit to doing differently in the future? Not soliciting feedback from clients about a peer is one; repairing her relationship with Zena is another.

      * You are under no obligation to convince Susan that you are right. This isn’t a debate in front of a judge who’s weighing both your arguments. Here, YOU are the judge. If what Susan is doing is ineffective and inappropriate in your organization, you’re her boss and that’s all the standing you need to tell her to knock it off. You don’t need to convince her that you have authority to do so – that’s a given.

        1. Auntie Social*

          And don’t forget “I manage Zena. You do not. Now, YOU have a relationship with a peer to repair, write me a memo of how you’re going to do it before you make any attempts.” She was trying to prove you’re a terrible manager so she gets your job, by picking on one of the weak ones in the herd.

      2. LKW*

        Agree with the talk a lot less than you think you need to. Outline the expectation once and then stop talking. Let Susan dig as deep as she wants with the explanations. At that point, you can ask questions, if you think it worthwhile use of your time, to challenge the assumptions she’s made:

        What outcomes were you hoping to achieve? Do you think you achieved those?
        What about this approach do you like?
        Do you think this approach makes a good impression with our clients?

        As someone who is fairly direct, I think she’s a shit-stirrer. Asking a client for feedback or talking to a client who has negative feedback to share – that’s expected. But you don’t seek it out. Being direct is fine. Bringing drama is not. Being cruel is not. You don’t have to be cruel to be direct.

    7. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Does Zena report to you also? In addition to dealing with Susan, I think you need to address this with her, give positive feedback about how she’s picking up the job, let her know that *you* will give her constructive feedback when she needs to change something, and that she basically shouldn’t listen to Susan.
      If she’s not your report, I think you probably need to let her manager know this happened and that you’re dealing with it.

      With Susan, that is a complicated situation since she’s already grumpy at you for getting the position and other people have said better things. But overall, this is a case of “Part of your job is playing nice with others.” If she does a good job but alienates all her coworkers, she’s not doing a good job.

    8. Jadelyn*

      You’ve gotten a lot of great advice already but I want to add one thing. If she tries to fall back on the “East Coast directness” thing, be prepared to counter it. I’d say something along the lines of:

      “I understand that you feel like that’s your working style, but that working style is causing problems for you and for your coworkers and harming your relationship with the team, and it needs to stop.” Keep the focus on the behavior, don’t let her brush it off with her intent (“I don’t mean it that way!”) because I’d bet money she’s going to try to. Repeat the same line if she argues. “Regardless, it’s causing problems and you need to learn how to tone it down/rein it in/dial it back/whatever.”

      1. Thankful for AAM*

        Madelyn, thats a really good point and script!
        I’m “east coast direct” and no one ever says to me, regardless of your intentions, your behavior is causing problems. They soften things so much that they never make their point and I’m left wondering what the issue is. In this case, her intention seems to be to stir up trouble but the script is great!

  31. Kevin*

    In a similar vein to the disturbing zombie doll that was mentioned in a AAM question earlier this week, at my employer this year some co-workers decorated an empty cubicle like a murder scene. Marked off with crime scene tape, tons of (fake) bloody white rags, a headless dead body (clothes stuffed with newspaper or something). It’s actually somewhat disturbing when you come across it and don’t know it’s there beforehand. It startled me and numerous other people.

    2. Shocked Pikachu*

      I am big horror junkie, crime investigation junkie as well. Books, tv shows (Vera, anyone ?)… And I would find that decoration disturbing. The big issue with Halloween nowadays is we have come very long way. Decorations, make up and masks became very realistic. Like in some cases increasingly realistic. It’s not that slightly funny, pretend goofiness anymore. It’s awesome for people who are into it, who, for one day really want to pretend the stuff is real. Makes for awesome haunted houses, themed parties, etc. But it’s bleeding over into “general” areas and it clashes. I’d say quite a few people would have problem with realistically looking murder seen at work (or airport, or grocery store) no matter how much you know it’s pretend. It would be nice if we could keep that divide, goofy spooky for general public, gory scary realistic spooky for private venues.

    3. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I don’t know when Halloween scary turned into Halloween gross. Medical waste is not a decoration.

  32. Lx in Canada*

    IT SNOWED ALL LAST NIGHT AND THIS MORNING. Coming into work was a nightmare (I walk; it’s about 10-12 minutes). Also, the weather change has me exhausted and I haven’t been super productive today. I just want to go home and nap with the cats.

    However – I am also at the end of my current to-do list! (I’m currently working on the last task. Except there’s one that had to be postponed because I’m waiting for someone else to do something, so I’m not counting that one.) The way I work is that I select about 5-6 cases at a time to prioritize and I work on them until they’re done. It’s been working surprisingly well for me. Otherwise I get too overwhelmed and anxious.

    1. Shocked Pikachu*

      I moved from Europe to US and have been living in Southwestern desert for over twenty years. We get little snow every few years and it’s always so happy and cool. I sometimes miss wintery winter so much. I guess brain has the tendency to block the bad and remember only the good part ;)

      And kudos, sounds like you came up with work system that works well for you :)

      1. Lx in Canada*

        Oh god, we get like constant -20 Celsius temperatures in January and February… I used to drive to work and have a few minute walk from the back parking lot, but now that I live nearby and walk, I’m going to have to get used to it real quick! Hah.

        Yes, and it helps that I allow myself to “cheat” a little at times – if I don’t like anything on my current list I briefly work on a file that came in later (we do everything by order it came in). When I’m spinning my wheels on everything I have, taking a break to work on something different actually ends up being really helpful!

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I knew someone who had once worked loading planes in Minnesota. On nasty winter days, she would wear her insulated protective gear as a coat over her office-appropriate outfit. Watching that come off in the lobby (we left the snow there) was like a reversed Superman change.

  33. Roja*

    Culture fit… how do you deal when you know you’re in an environment where you and the culture and a terrible fit? I can’t get out until June at the earliest–PLEASE don’t suggest that I leave before then as I’m on contract and breaking a school year contract is a really, really big deal in this field. Compounding the issue is the fact that I’ve recently been told by two people in the area who used to work there (both reliable) that they were fired without warning and without any given cause. I’m prepared for the same to happen to me, but it does make me much jumpier than normal.

    Anyways, the culture is super cutesy and cheerleadery (think preschool). Our timecards are decorated with pink figurines and multicolored playful fonts, for one example. I am… I’ll nicely put it as NOT a cutesy person. I’m trying to play along occasionally but I just can’t bring myself to do a lot of it. How do you deal??

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Alison has suggested pretending you’re an anthropologist observing a new culture before when it comes to difficult environments, I bet it might help in one that you don’t mesh with.

      It might also help if you mentally separate your work self from your home/true self. Like, I am putting on my pink work hat, work me can survive and thrive in this pastel world, and when I leave the office I shall remove my work hat and resume my real life and be my real self. I know that will probably be really hard to maintain until June, it might help to know that it is temporary.

      But also make sure you are really taking care of yourself in your off-hours. “Faking it” for 8+ hours a day can really take a toll on you, so make sure you’re doing plenty of self care.

    2. Sleepy*

      If you’re in a school environment, I totally agree that you should not leave in the middle of the year for anything less than harassment or a medical emergency. I’ve worked in those environments and you are absolutely correct, so I wanted to validate that.

      I’m not sure if this applies to your role, but if you are in a school, the best way to bear unbearable circumstances is to connect with students and focus on your interactions with them, not with the other adults.

    3. Dr. Glowcat Twinklepuff*

      I have no wisdom, just commiseration. The thought of your timecards made me meeeew and hisssss. Could you just say that you’re introvert and “this is your happy face”?

    4. Approval is optional*

      I had a similar problem early in my career, and I found some success in making my non-cutesyness a flaw that I regretted – if that makes sense. I didn’t feel great about doing it, but I was junior and really really needed to keep having my contract extended, being fond of eating each day and all. I practiced ‘oh how cute, I sooo wish I could think of creative things the way you do’ type scripts with my friends a bit to get it to sound right, and then pretended I was in a play at work. After a while I had to do it less – I got slotted in to a ‘poor Approval isn’t good at things like this’ place in the team.

    5. Falling Diphthong*

      Focus on the things in your life that are not work, so the irritation with work can recede to occupy less brain space. And–I read this here–frame staying in the job as a choice. “I choose to go to work today because the long-term cost of quitting is too high.” Getting out of the “I have no choice” mindset and affirming that the other options are worse, so you choose this for the rest of the academic year.

      Also second Narwhal’s suggestion of anthropology student.

    6. LQ*

      Maybe…Think Wednesday Adams. But delightedly. Your own kind of delight in being Wednesday. And if anyone gives you grief and shoves into you, just say you’re more a Wednesday kind of girl. If you try to match them where they are it’ll be so much harder. But try to match them where you are and it shouldn’t be quite so bad. Do you hard. Don’t try to do them at all. I think that playing along is the hardest part. But tell them with great delight that you’re glad they enjoy the things they enjoy.

      The other thing is to be boring as hell but lean into that.
      Come out with us!
      I have the most exciting plans to reorganize my bookshelf. (That’ll take 3 months because you’ll have to redo it twice, and do it once with a different strategy (aka you’re going to try to do it all in Dewey decimal)). No seriously, I love it, I’m having a great time surrounded by the smell of old books looking each one up and meticulously making sure I have the correct numbers delicately postited to the cover.
      Come out with us please! You’re so boring!
      But I’m so good at being boring and I love it so much.
      Boo!
      I know, but books!

      1. Queen of the File*

        > But I’m so good at being boring and I love it so much.

        I cannot wait until the next time I have an opportunity to use this.

      2. Jadelyn*

        I do something like this with spreadsheets. I’m a legit data nerd. It makes me happy to think of mass quantities of data I can get my hands on and work with. I know people find that weird, so I lean into it. After awhile, people come to see it as just an endearing quirk of yours and they don’t give you grief about it.

    7. LadyGrey*

      Is there anything adjacent to the cutesy that you do like? Cartoon dinosaurs, lego? If you can embellish your space with something that you’re comfortable with that doesn’t look too out of place it might reduce the pink glow, as it were. You’re totally taking part, look how cute this baby dragon is!

    8. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Don’t insult the environment or your coworkers or roll your eyes or anything that indicates you hate it, but just do your not-cutesy thing cheerfully. So if you love science, then be the happy science nerd. I’m not a cutesy person either, but I just hate the type that poo all over something that others enjoy whether it’s sports, unicorns or Game of Thrones. Don’t be a pigeon. If I show them respect for their Thing, they usually give me the same courtesy.

    9. LilySparrow*

      This is one of those answers where I wish tone of voice would come through, because I can’t think of wording that doesn’t sound snarky. But I’m not intending it as snark. It’s just really the thing that worked.

      I get through situations like that by remembering that I’m getting paid to be there.

      I don’t have to enjoy everything about it. I don’t have to feel like I found my true tribe of life companions. As long as everyone is pleasant and the work is valuable, etc, that’s enough.

      Maybe it comes from growing up as a weird kid – I don’t expect to automatically fit in with people I didn’t choose. I can get along with anyone who is a basically decent person. But finding people I really “click” with has always taken some intentional seeking, and some luck.

      When I think of problems that would cause someone to leave over “culture fit,” I think of values conflicts like not prioritizing diversity, or philosphical disagreements over whether the business practices are aligned with the mission, or hierarchical vs flat structure, etc. Cartoons on the timecard certainly doesn’t seem worth quitting over, unless you just don’t need the money.

      Random sudden firings are a bigger deal and suggest larger issues. But I also wouldn’t consider them culture issues so much as bad management practices.

      In the meantime, I’d just smile and nod a lot, and be “the quiet one.” There’s usually room for a quiet one or two, as long as your work is good.

      1. Roja*

        Oh believe me, there’s a lot more than cartoons. It’s a parade of red and yellow flags. I may be picky about my job but I’m not silly enough to quit over the design of a timecard. I’m just trying to be as nonspecific as possible so I don’t dox myself. :)

    10. CM*

      Any chance of liking something cute in a gothic or otherwise personality complimentary way? Cute bats etc?

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      So many good suggestions above. One thought to add: If the students are also treated to cutesy, you might give yourself another reason to persist by looking out for the not-cheerleader students who might also find it unbearable.
      I’m thinking of the junior high school librarian & tech teacher who let their shared back room be a haven for my band of misfit toys.

    12. Tater Tots*

      Any advice for someone looking to switch careers? I currently work in highered, I’m underpaid, I can’t get my work done in my regularly scheduled hours (I wouldn’t mind staying late sometimes or obviously our few weekend events but constantly having to stay late and be stressed sucks). I have a 1 year old that I want to spend more time with.

      Anyway, I was talking with family and when they found out how much I make they all commented that I don’t get paid enough for how stressed I am and how much work I do!

      I’m 30 and ready for a change. I’m willing to go back to school but have no idea what to do! Any advise on career to look into? I kinda of fell into higher ed and am doing a job I didn’t know was a thing until I started working here. Would prefer a flexible job as I’m interested in working part time while my kids are little.

      I guess I just don’t know where to start!

    13. Roja*

      Thanks everyone for the replies! Sorry it’s taken me so long to follow up; my husband and I were out of town this weekend. I’ll try the anthropologist thing and see how that goes, and also play up my strengths with humor. Here’s hoping I make it through successfully!

  34. Annette*

    Shoes for interview in the snow?

    The title says it all. My leather beauts = not going to make it. I need something that looks sleek and stylish. With a black pantsuit and ideally also nice with a dress. Must be able to survive 5-10 minutes walking in the snow. Brands or general style advice – all very welcome! Thanks all.

    3. ElizabethJane*

      I carry a large stylish (I think it’s stylish) tote bag that’s essentially empty but has a pair of dress shoes in it. Then I change shoes and shove my boots in the bag.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        I’ve done exactly this, but with not even a super stylish bag. It’s gross out, people understand that you aren’t going to walk in the snow in your nice shoes, so unless they’re completely unreasonable no one will blink twice at a bag with boots in it.

        1. ElizabethJane*

          I mean mine’s from Target – it’s probably not super stylish. More along the lines of “Is an actual purse and not a trash bag”

          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            Ah I see. I’m pretty sure I used a reusable shopping bag (wouldn’t be a problem to have snow and muck in it and would prevent most liquid from leaking out everywhere as snow melted off the boots).

            Either way boots in a bag gets my vote!

    4. yay november*

      I’d say bring a change of shoes, but if you can’t carry them with you, I like my Timberlands.

    5. Mimi*

      I have a pair of knee-high La Canadienne boots with a flat heel that I wear under pants and with skirts. They are stylish, waterproof, and good for the snow. They are an investment but I wear them at least 3 times a week during the winter so to me they are worth it.

    6. Mediamaven*

      I don’t know what your budget looks like but Aquatalia makes fab shoes and they are all waterproof. Very pricey but awesome if you can swing it. They have sales too.

    7. Effie, who gets to be herself*

      Rainproof shoes often work in the snow – Ugg has some nice rain shoes. I have a pair of Josef Seibel boots ($$$) that are great for street-to-work in bad weather.

    8. Cookie Monster*

      In general there are some really beautifully both high gloss and matte chelsea-style rainboots. They’d definitely work with a pantsuit, and maybe with a dress depending on the style. I personally think the high gloss looks a bit nicer, but the matte could also work depending on the boot. Nordstrom has some nice ones, especially the “Cougar” brand one that’s on sale right now.

    9. WalkedInMyShoes*

      I would bring the interview shoes in a nice bag. Then, walk through the snow with the snow boots. When you arrive, try to find the nears restroom to change. I did this when it was snowing and completely freezing in Chicago. I even put on my winter coat and changed into a non-wrinkle interview suit jacket. Ta-dah! Looked like a million dollars and you will, too! Good luck on your interview!

  35. Depressed and anon*

    For people who work remotely 100% (like data entry and similar), are there reputable sites/agencies for this sort of thing? I know there’s Flexjobs and they supposedly filter out scams and stuff, but maybe there are other things.

    Due to my anxiety and depression doing me in the last few months, I’m kind of toying with making some kind of a big change like that. I’m in grad school and changed careers a couple of years ago, but am kind of regretting it…not that I don’t like the work, but I feel like something more…I don’t know, straightforward maybe, would be good. But I don’t want to be in the situation of constantly having to track down new jobs/work either, freelancing is not for me.

  36. De Minimis*

    I had a gigantic Halloween surprise yesterday—I found out that my boss had been fired at the end of the day on Wednesday! She had been warned by HR numerous times after multiple complaints by her subordinates and others about insensitive comments she would continually make. The CFO was her main defender and was very upset, but I guess the organization went over her head and the decision was made to terminate.

    We’re a mid-size nonprofit with only about 4 accounting staff, and I’m the only person who is really capable of taking over most of the manager’s duties. I’ve been pretty underutilized in my job, which I’ve held for seven months. My boss was hoarding a lot of the duties, I think because she knew she was in trouble and was trying to make herself indispensable. I’ve already been told I’ll be the main person who has to take over a lot of her tasks. I’m excited but also worried that I may not be able to do it.

    Back in May I wrote because my boss had said she was giving me a “last warning” about work production and I wasn’t sure where it was coming from. She ended up just dropping it as if she hadn’t said anything and we were continuing on fairly well though I came to realize that she wasn’t a good manager. The things I was told by my coworkers about things she had said to them and to others really dumbfounded me. I had thought she would be kept on, because that’s what usually happens, but HR actually came through. What we think is that she already had an HR investigation due to complaints my peers had made, but then she said something really insensitive to a large group of other employees, and they all complained at once.

    Has anyone else ever had to take on a lot of their manager’s duties unexpectedly, on a permanent basis? How did it work out? I’m also trying to figure out how to bring it up if they want me to work as an acting manager without increasing pay or changing my title. I’m thinking my strategy will be if it all goes okay to bring it up when I get to my yearly review. On paper I’m well qualified for the job, and was actually somewhat overqualified for the job I have now.

    1. Ama*

      This has actually happened to me twice — one temporarily (kind of a similar situation to yours where the manager was fired unexpectedly) and once permanently (my manager had a major health crisis and then opted to take a job closer to home afterwards, I did such a good job covering that they gave me most of her duties permanently). It can definitely be overwhelming — my advice would be to not be afraid to ask questions, and to be open about your process for doing things. For example, when my manager was ill, I got a lot of support from the other management but she was doing a lot of things that no one else knew how to do, so I would try to look in the files and find how it was done previously, but if I couldn’t find it, I would just say to my then-interim manager “hey so for the X project I don’t see anything in the files about how it was done previously, is there anyone else who might know or do you want me to just take my best guess at it?”

      I also had one brand new project that was scheduled for implementation while my boss was still ill — luckily she had been working with an outside advisor who was able to give me a lot of guidance, but there was definitely a lot of looping back to my new manager and saying “so this is what the consultant advises, does that sound feasible to you?”

      I will say both of those workplaces gave me spot bonuses for the extra work I did while my coverage was still temporary (and both were nonprofits). At the place where the extra work became part of my permanent role they did give me one immediate promotion and raise as soon as it became clear that it was a permanent thing, but have also continued to give me promotions and raises as I’ve progressed and been able to take on more of the leadership/management part of the role.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I took on a former bosses duties but it was a different beast. Nobody was fired, due to his health decline and mental capacity being impacted, I had a load dumped in my lap.

      I took it and ran with it. I was given a pay increase somewhat immediately without having to ask for it.

      I would speak up and let them know what you’re willing and able to do. And even ask if there’s a possibility to take on the role yourself, since you are qualified. I would also bring up the compensation issue as well, since you shouldn’t be doing more work for the price of your old job, ever.

  37. excuses*

    What’s the worst excuse you’ve ever heard for someone calling in sick? My coworker’s been out three days this week because the over-the-counter medication she takes for her allergies makes her too drowsy…

      1. Bloopmaster*

        Yeah, this in itself isn’t a bad excuse. It’s possible to get a reaction from a drug that you didn’t expect, and even to dismiss the first or second instance of this reaction as a fluke rather than a serious issue. However, if the employee is not proactively taking any steps (and/or working with a doctor) to identify a medication to take that doesn’t produce this effect, that’s when it starts to be a problem.

      2. Applesauced*

        Agreed – I react badly to cold medicine (anything other than Sudafed makes me high for a day and half), and have accidentally “robo-tripped” myself on more than one occasions

    2. Mr. Catastrophe*

      Not a bad excuse, but I had an employee send me a photograph of his irritated eye. No thank you, just tell me you’re not feeling well. I don’t need visual aids.

      2. Liz*

        This reminds me of an attorney i worked for (I was an admin) We worked for a company that had on-sight health, as we had manufacturing. Which was nice because in addition to that, they had “sick hours” where if you simply were not feeling well, you could go and be seen. I was even able to do that as a temp!

        anyway, i knew from experience and knowing the policies, that IF you tried to get in and see them outside of the assigned hours, they’d want to know why. So the attorney asked me to call for him, and since i knew they’d ask, i asked him what his issues were. I was treated to a long discourse about his diarrhea, etc. Um gee thanks?

      3. Fikly*

        OOOh, yeah, I used to have a job being the first person people saw when they walked into the ER, and I had to write their complaint in the computer. One guy (who spoke English!) handed me a picture of his bloody vomit all over the bathroom floor. Save it for the nurses, please.

    3. You can't fire me; I don't work in this van*

      At a previous company, the other admins and I covered for the receptionist when she was out. And she was out a lot. She was in the hole on both sick and vacation time, so she called in on the first nice weather Friday in the spring and said her mom had been in a car accident. Her mom called while I was covering the reception desk.

      2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

        Oooh, please tell me you acted very concerned about her, with the accident and all…

    4. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Yeah, if I take Zyrtec I am a total zombie. Like unsafe to drive or operate a chef’s knife.

      Of course, after 2 experiences I switched to a different medicine. Which is too bad, because Zyrtec is otherwise completely superior in treating my symptoms.

    5. Me*

      Allergies can be pretty miserable and drowsiness is a legitimate side effect that makes it at minimum difficult to work at worst, the rest of us driving appreciate her not on the road.

      My excuse is always a plain I’m sick an won’t be in. It’s no one’s business whether I can’t get off the toilet or need a mental health day.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Seriously, I’m glad she’s staying off the road if she’s that drowsy.

        Besides which, if you’re doped up that bad, you’re not going to be productive anyway. My figure when I’m sick is, I can either be miserable and get nothing done at work, or I can be miserable and get nothing done at home. Nothing is getting done, either way, so my company would probably rather pay out the PTO than waste real wages while getting little to nothing in return.

    6. Jamie*

      That’s a thing. I don’t have allergies but the only thing I can take for congestion is Benedril which knocks me out (literally, I have fallen asleep at the dinner table and will sleep for 12 hours – no way I could remain conscious much less drive, or work.)

      1. Construction Safety*

        Mighta been gout. The first time it comes up, it’s quite a surprise on several levels.

        1. Llama Face!*

          Yep, as someone who has a similar condition to gout (not actually gout) I can say that this can be really crippling. I was off work for a week the first time I had a really bad toe flare-up; I could barely walk from the bed to the bathroom, never mind actually making it into work.

        2. Pommette!*

          Gout runs in my family (fun times ahead, I guess) and it is a weird one. It sounds so trivial (toe pain? really?), and most people who haven’t encountered it still think of it as a quirky historical disease that afflicted rich and decadent people who deserved what they got in pre-revolutionary Europe… but it is so shockingly awful and overwhelming.

          My grandmother was a stoic woman who once calmly tourniquetted her leg and dragged herself to a pay-phone after suffering multiple fractures, and who lived with a lot of chronic pain that she didn’t complain about. But when her gout flared up, she was in bed, in tears, and out of commission.

      2. Workerbee*

        I just tried to walk around without putting any pressure on or using one of my big toes, in shoes. That proved to be impossible within seconds. Adding in pain, heck no.

      3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        That one could be legit if it was something like Turf Toe or arthritis.

    8. Construction Safety*

      There was a radio DJ in western NYS during the 70s who called himself the Greaseman. He called in “Well” one night.

      1. Jaid*

        I remember a Greaseman in the 90’s in the Delaware Valley area. I wonder if it’s the same guy…

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Could be, he traveled around and was syndicated for a while. He’s got quite the Wikipedia page.

    9. Art3mis*

      I had a coworker call in due to snow once. Which seems legit except there was less than an inch on the ground (this was in the Chicago suburbs) and she lived less than a mile from the office. Everyone else, many of whom lived 20+ miles away (I lived 35 miles away), all made it in just fine.

      1. ElizabethJane*

        I’m in Chicago and we got about an inch and a half yesterday. I informed my boss on Wednesday that I wasn’t coming in due to crappy weather, but also we’re about as flexible as an office can get and I work from home on Thursdays anyway.

    10. Zephy*

      I’ve definitely been a level of ill due to allergies where I just feel generally blah – I won’t get anyone else sick, I don’t need to stay within spitting distance of a bathroom at all times, but the only job duty I’ll reliably complete today is keeping this chair warm. I can’t focus long enough to get anything of substance done, I sound terrible in person and worse over the phone, and while I’m not contagious, I’m sure the near-constant sneezing and nose-blowing is distracting at best for other people in earshot.

    11. Rey*

      A secretary called out “sick” at the last minute for a meeting she was supposed to take minutes for. She claimed to have multiple chronic illnesses, but I always felt like her stories were far-fetched. When she came in the next day, she openly talked about how she had spent five hours at the salon getting her hair colored.

      1. Me*

        In slight fairness, sitting in a chair doing nothing while getting your hair done doesn’t require the mental ability working does.

    13. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Allergies are a legit reason to miss work.

      I did raise an eyebrow at the co-worker who had a day off for a cold sore. At the end of the sick-leave calculation period, when she had exactly one day of sick leave to take or lose. Fortunately she was a rock star. But HONESTLY.

      1. Workerbee*

        Good for her for taking it since they don’t carry over. I’m not one to police people on what they take their earned/allocated time for.

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I have a bit of sympathy for her on that though. I don’t suffer from them, but my mom does and they can be painful. But really when you have a great big oozing sore on your face, sometimes it’s just humiliating to go out until it heals a bit; sort of like taking a mental health day.

        1. Dorothy Zbornak*

          yes, this is a great point. I admit that a couple of times in the past I worked from home when I had an absolutely massive cystic zit that was both unsightly and painful. like, there are zits and then there are ZITS. I’ve never had a cold sore but I would feel the same way about that.

        2. Middle School Teacher*

          They are seriously the worst. I always feel like my classes are just staring at the giant blister on my face and not listening to me.

    14. Workerbee*

      This happens to me with the non-drowsy meds. It never used to, so it bugs the crap out of me: I know taking two Dayquils is more effective than one, but if I take two, suddenly I’ll be drowsy.

      By contrast, I’ve found that nasal allergy spray (generally) doesn’t give me that same reaction and can help against a regular cold, too. Maybe it bypasses what would trigger the drowsiness??

        1. Nessun*

          Nyquil gives me vertigo (anything with a certain active ingredient for most cold meds does). So I can either suffer the cold, or lie on my back for days…really, it’s not much of a choice.

    15. Kathenus*

      Ideally no one should have to give a reason, or excuse, to use sick time. They simply need to say they are sick and won’t be in to work that day.

    16. KR*

      Supervising older teen and young adult videographers/AV techs. Memorial Day was a big deal as we had many needs to support at once for a big parade, closed roads, different technology, many different parts of the days festivities. All hands on deck. One of my employees called out a few days before the parade because apparently their parents had planned a family trip over the holiday weekend and they “had no idea” about this big trip and had to go. This was after the parade had planned around our tech/staffing limitations so there was AV support at each part of the celebration. So I had to go back to the parade committee (which if you know local government parade committees and festival planning are big ole deals) and tell them they had to rework one of their events after I had swore the current plan was fine, we could do it, ect. And of course it’s memorial day so tensions are high because ~support the troops~. Super frustrating

    18. No lie*

      Hiccups. She called in due to hiccups.

      And a different person offered WAY too much info when they called in due to a genital herpes outbreak. Just tell me your sick.

      1. Mr. Catastrophe*

        And suddenly “coming out both ends” and the visual aid of the eye don’t seem so bad.

    19. Snuffles*

      My coworker called in “feeling sniffly” this week. She literally called in with the sniffles.

      I laughed.

    20. ...*

      Allergies can be debilitating. The only OTC medicines that do jack sh*t make you extremely, extremely tired. I’ve learned to fight through having to take a double dose of benadryl and still work but its extremely difficult and im able to take an uber or lyft if i need to. If she has to drive its genuinely unsafe. Allergies seem made up or stupid to people who don’t have them. To people who suffer from them they are terrible. I’ve prayed for less alleriges, I’ve bargained with god saying i will be a better person if i could have one day waking up without severe allergies. I’ve mentally thought of amounts of money I would give up to have ONE DAY without constant sneezing and blowing my nose (5,000, 10,000, my whole bank account. There are days i’ve thought I’d GIVE IT ALL AWAY for ONE DAY without terrible allergies. One day to breathe.) And yes I’ve been to every type of doctor and taken every medicine. Your poor co worker!!!

      1. Fikly*

        I was in the ER once and they gave me a double dose of benadryl and it made me so cognitively impaired they evaluated me for a stroke!

    21. Qwerty*

      It might help to mentally frame this as your coworker is out sick due to bad allergies. Would you rather she was home due to hives, or swelling, or not being able to breathe due to allergy-related congestion/cough?

      I’ve given some legit reasons for calling out sick before that were questioned and it really makes a employee fell terrible and like the can’t use their sick leave to know their manager is judging them for their reason. Even if you don’t say anything directly, it tends to come out in other ways.

    22. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve been tempted this month. Our building has had leaks and this year it got suddenly worse to the point where people who are NOT allergic to mildew are complaining. I have fall allergies anyway, and this has given me near-constant tinitus.

    23. Kat in VA*

      Myself, Monday.

      Short story – I had a mosaic wart (basically a party of plantar warts) burned off my foot.

      Long story – I had a PTO day on Friday and originally had planned to have this monster taken care of over a long Thanksgiving break. They called with a cancellation on Friday and I was like YEAH SURE LET’S DO THIS.

      It wasn’t until *after* he painted the acid onto the beast on my foot that I was informed that walking would be next to impossible for, “Oh, four to five days, maybe a week” and that I’d be in a walking boot for “maybe another week”. 76% monochloracetic acid just…keeps burning and burning and burning. I’ve had many surgeries, real surgeries, the kind where they cut you open and saw on bones and stuff. This was not quite as painful as those but for me to say “Holy $hit, this REALLY hurts”, it…really really hurts.

      So I took a WFH day on Monday, showed up Tue-Wed-Thu and hobbled around in a walking boot. (I’m cussed-minded and wore running shoes Friday, something I’m regretting today on Saturday.)

      Feeling guilty, I offered to send BossMan pics and he wisely declined, but my Special Forces medic buddy demanded to see and then sent a text saying, “Good God, looks like a chemical burn you’d get in f*&*ing Iraq or Syria.”

      So yeah, my lame excuse is “I had a wart burned off my foot” but it was oh, so much more than that.

    24. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Feeling dizzy because of new glasses. (put the old ones back on then!)
      Anniversary of hamster dying.

  38. Narvo Flieboppen*

    Things were theoretically quiet at work last week because I was out of the office. This week has been mildly interesting.

    When I got back to work, I had no fewer than 13 voicemails from people looking for a call back “today”. The beginning of my voicemail message “I am out of the office with no access to email or voicemail”. (Listening is a skill, people, perhaps you should try to acquire it?)

    Of those 13 messages, 3 were from the same person with increasingly perturbed complaints about my lack of my response. She closed last week with an email sent high importance to my boss, CC’d to me, about my lack of communication and failure to provide support. I presume she then received my out of office message and figured out that one of the people in the email thread was behaving like an idiot. All of this week, she has not responded to my attempts to resolve her issue…

    I had previously posted about the new girl in Marketing, Annie, who displayed gumption. There will be no further updates about Annie because she was no longer an employee when I returned to work. A quick and unprofessional flash in the pan, it seems.

    One of those ‘your extended vehicle warranty’ scammers called. I played it straight, mostly to see how far they would go, by asking which vehicle. The scammer specified it was our 2010-2019 model year vehicle. So I again asked for clarification because we have 18 vehicles which match that description in our fleet. Her response was just ‘Ugh *sigh*’ followed by hanging up. I was disappointed by this lazy response. How can you scam if you won’t go for the big shiny bait?

    We received a complaint from a vendor about our payment being late. This is a new vendor, first time we’ve done business with them, so I pull all of our communications with them as were were speaking. The company emailed once to confirm the contract was executed, a second time to request our tax info for their records, and third time to confirm an invoice would be generated and sent. We never received the invoice, thus we didn’t pay it. I asked the AR rep if she could send an invoice. Her response: “Do you really need an invoice?” Hmmm, let’s see: contract is for services rendered over the next year. The services provided may vary in usage/cost per month. And the contract specifies we will be invoiced on net 30 terms each month. Yup, gonna need that invoice if you want payment. Another call that ended with a sigh and hang up. But she sent the invoice, so I guess that’ll do?

    To round out the week, our emergency generator was just taken out by a falling tree. Oddly fortunate because hitting the generator shifted the tree just far enough to the side that it missed going through the floor to ceiling window and taking out one of my colleagues at her desk. The adrenaline has worn off, so we would all like to go home and take naps now.

    1. Michelle*

      Wow, what a week. I have dealt with the car warranty scammers before. I do loathe the copier cartridge scammers. They are not as lazy and will call incessantly. I finally yelled at one that I knew they were a scammer and if they called again I was going to notify the police.

      Your colleague must have a guardian angel. Glad she was unhurt.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Reading this makes me think I really need to get back to work as I don’t have adrenaline surges to distract me.

      Lololololololololololololololo.

      I think you all deserve to get the rest of the day off. Enjoy your weekend.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      I am somewhat disappointed, as I had been looking forward to more Annie-gumption stories. But it’s AAM, though, which mean there’ll always be another “Annie” around the corner in next week’s Open Thread.

  39. B*

    Has anyone dealt with a very aggressive United Way campaign in their office? I prefer that any charitable donation I make be one that I want to make and to give to an organization that I fully support. I have had several people stop by or pull me into meetings trying to sell me on donating to United Way and it’s bordering on, if not already crossed over to, harassment. I’ve already used phrases like “I’ve already allocated my donations for the year” and “I’ve already made a donation directly to my charity of choice” and that hasn’t worked.

    My manager pulled me aside this morning and flat out told me that by me not participating, it reflected poorly on them as a manager and that I needed to contribute. So I said I would donate $10 in order to show participation but my manager told me that the donation was too small and that someone at my level in the company (mid-management) should be giving more to set an example and that at my salary I could afford it. I completely dug my heels in at this point and refused to participate, telling my manager that if they were going to refuse a donation of any size that I would not be making one. I’ve since gotten two emails this morning trying to sell me on the benefits of donating and a “recommended” amount.

    I’m just going to ignore it, but the hounding will likely continue. Has anyone had any luck dealing with this type of thing and how firm did you have to be?

    1. Rebecca*

      Yes, for many years, and the worst part was “you will be the one preventing us from contributing 100%”. I opted for one dollar. It’s not up to your boss to tell you how much you can afford to give to charity! Your finances are your business. I don’t like the strong arm tactics this charity uses, and I don’t like how employers lean on their employees like this, either. Thankfully my current employer doesn’t do this or participate.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        My mom regularly told her UW pushers that my dad donated at his workplace for both of them, and they kept giving her the 100% speech. Finally one year her supervisor said “I’m donating $5 in your name so we can reach our 100% goal.” It was probably supposed to guilt my mom into kicking in, but it did not work.

      3. Flyleaf*

        My former company used to beg everyone to contribute something, in order to get to 100%. When I didn’t give, they asked (forcefully), and I simply told them that I stopped giving to UW when their CEO (William Aramony) was convicted of fraud. If they can’t prevent their CEO from committing fraud, they aren’t worthy of my donation.

    2. Mr. Catastrophe*

      I *hate* the workplace giving campaign. I donate through it to the organizations that I would donate to anyway but I think my workplace spends entirely too much money and time on the campaign itself. The original point of these things was so that there would be one charitable giving ask in the workplace each year, and only one. (No more PTA fundraisers, Girl Scout cookies, walk-a-thons…) But that didn’t last.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “I should be setting an example? So you’re saying the amount of our contributions are made public?”

    5. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Yup. The HR person at that place was horrible. She prefilled the forms for all of the hourly staff to specify a $25 per month donation and then sent them to us with letter stating we were required to sign the attached form and return it to her.

      That was over 100 employees she tried to sign up. I kept ‘losing’ mine *cough shredder cough* to the point she finally walked one over and handed it to me to sign while she stood and watched. That one also went into the shredder while I looked her right in the eye and said ‘Oops, seems I lost it.’ There were no further attempts to cajole me into giving to the United Way.

      I also quit that place a couple months later for many reasons.

      1. Picard*

        That one also went into the shredder while I looked her right in the eye and said ‘Oops, seems I lost it.’

        I think I love you.

          1. Narvo Flieboppen*

            Yes, but only possible because I was out of to give. If I had actually cared about staying employed there it would have been a different interaction.

            I was already 40% under market pay for my work, slowly hemorrhaging cash out of savings to survive, and now this woman who was denying pay raises wanted to also give away my money for me? Hell no.

      3. Jadelyn*

        She PRE-FILLED them and then demanded people sign? Good lord, that’s some brass right there. Gumption cranked up to 11.

    6. Pink Glitter*

      My company is big on United Way and it drives me crazy. I asked last year in departmental meeting if they would match donations and they said no because the company already donates to a lot of charities. Which, to be fair, it does. But don’t pressure me to donate through you and make you look good if you’re not going to match it.

      So no advice, but plenty of commiseration.

    7. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Holy schnikes that’s so inappropriate. I’m a fundraiser and this is why people hate fundraisers! I don’t generally support the UW either, but at a previous job they had a volunteer committee that put together a silent auction with the proceeds going to the UW – so it was at least a fun event and you could bid on something you might enjoy. (That’s how I ended up with two Christmas wreaths, I bid like $6 on each of them thinking I probably wouldn’t win either and won both!)

      But for your boss to pressure you not just to give but also in what amount? That’s a hard no from me, dawg.

    8. Michelle*

      They automatically deduct for UW at my husband’s employer. They have asked him to up his donation and he said as soon as they up his salary.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          At many companies they do a deduction, with the amount set up by the employee. Athe some of those companies they try to get you to set it up as a % of your salary…I got a dirty look when I set it to a small specific figure instead. They accepted my explanation that I had an NFP I already supported, but we got the “give more” more than once in the time I was there. (Under 2 years…massive layoffs.)

    9. Art3mis*

      They aren’t super aggressive here, but I still find it annoying. Especially since a lot of folks in management seem to think that our department should maintain the streak of contributing the most. Um, we’re also the lowest paid department, so how about no? Right now there’s a competition between our department and customer service and you can “vote” on who is going to win, each vote costs $1. Customer Service starts at $2 more an hour than us, so again, no, not interested. Some people in our department are near enough to needing UW’s assistance themselves, so it’s super annoying.

      1. Ama*

        We don’t do United Way as we’re a nonprofit ourselves, but when we do our local area fundraiser our development team gets a little tone deaf about the in-office fundraising. I am glad that staff have an easy way to raise money and be recognized if they want to, but last year the director of development sent around an email saying we were “less than $100 per person” short of our office fundraising goal. That really pissed me off because we’re in a high COL city and that’s a ton of money to our entry level staff particularly.

        I’m a senior manager with a lot of tenure and goodwill in the office and this issue is a hill I’m willing to die on so I don’t contribute and try to make sure any entry level staff who don’t want to/are unable to contribute know I’m happy to be the one who takes the fall for it if someone tries to pressure for 100% participation (which hasn’t happened yet, but I have some concerns about some of the developing trends).

    11. Lora*

      Current employer used to do that, but people complained about the various United Way things they disagreed with (including how they don’t even comply with the corporate ethics policies) and the company said fine, people can suggest other charities and gave a handful to choose from, or you could suggest others. I suggested a dog rescue charity and they said, “never heard of them, sorry.” Uh…so the link I sent didn’t work, or…? They never replied. Other charity suggestions they didn’t approve were a local health clinic serving poor people in the nearest Big City, NPR, Planned Parenthood.

      They seem to like activity type of charities. Men go to the Golf Open fundraiser, women sit around packing baby donations into baskets, Beach Cleanup Days, etc. Charities that don’t have golf tournaments or whatever don’t make the cut.

    12. Rick Tq*

      Rockwell was really bad about this when I worked there, the same “you will keep us from 100%” BS. I finally signed up for the minimum contribution of one penny per week, then, the day after the campaign closed went to Payroll and cancelled the deduction. My issue was United Way taking their 19% overhead fee before they forwarded money to the real recipient, I was willing to donate directly to specific charities.

      My last year there I almost filed a formal harassment complaint with the Ombudsman it got so bad.

      1. Garland Not Andrews*

        Nice thing about the United Way organization in my area is that 100% of donated amounts go to the charity. They request and receive large grants from some of the big businesses (Intel, Blue Cross, etc.) in our area to cover all their administrative expenses.

    13. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      Yes, I worked somewhere where your employee giving contributions were tracked year over year on a spreadsheet by Grandboss. Who gave, and how much, and how much they gave respective to last year.

      I learned then that giving is not optional: it often factors into your “team spirit” and opportunities for advancement.

    14. Goldfinch*

      My company is hard-core into UW, and anyone at manager level or above is expected to contribute directly from their paychecks. My own boss begrudgingly gives a token amount from each paycheck, because they care more about bragging about percent of participation than about the actual number of dollars.

      Overall, the pressure on us individual underlings is not extreme, but the company as a whole is big into doing publicly visible campaigns and splashing photos all over LinkedIn.

    15. Jadelyn*

      Ugh, United Way is the worst. It’s the whole “100% participation” thing. But your manager gets bonus asshole points for trying to milk more out of you because your offered donation was too low!

    16. Going anon for this*

      We do this every year. Fortunately, as long as you respond with “I choose not to participate,” they don’t seem to care.

    17. Mr. Shark*

      Luckily we haven’t had a big push or aggressive push for United Way giving, but I always feel like it’s none of my companies business which charity I give to, or how much I give, so I always decline contributing at work.

      I’m all for setting up The Human Fund and “donating” to that.

    18. BeachMum*

      I worked at a company where the city-wide United Way chair was the head of my company. The person send a company-wide email stating that he wanted 100% participation. My department tended to be younger and more hip and most of us supported other charities. We had the lowest participation (way less than 50%0 and had to attend several meetings, get reasonably nasty emails, etc. because of it. That said, I didn’t care.

  40. DC*

    Whoot! It is a week here in my office.

    So, as I’ve mentioned, I’m quitting without anything lined up because my boss is THAT BAD.
    I found out the other day that another co-worker is quitting TODAY, for the same reasons, which means the office will be down two of five.

    And a third is job hunting.

    Maybe they’ll figure something out when we all quit for the same reasons. Regardless, Im glad that I won’t be around for a short-staffed office with this guy.

    2. DC*

      Update: My coworker quit- and my boss “refused to accept her letter.” Her response was pure AAM: “My last day will be the 15th.”

      2. The New Wanderer*

        “Well you are free to continue to pay me but I will stop showing up and accomplishing any work as of the 15th.”

        My husband just resigned (although he does have something lined up) partly because of bad management. Solidarity!

  41. MissBookworm*

    Recently, my department has been going through some major issues, some are unavoidable and others aren’t. Just so much is going on that I hate getting up in the morning and when I get home I’m so emotionally drained that I fall asleep for a couple hours.

    We’re a small department and all of us get along really well and are really good at our jobs, but we’ve had some upheaval with our company being acquired and our grand-boss taking a leave of absence due to illness.

    I’ve missed two major deadlines in the last month. One was for an internal project relating to the acquisition and I ended up sending them the bulk of it and then smaller pieces as I finished it. The other was for a client and that cost us some money. Thankfully, our higher-ups were understanding and so far (fingers crossed) there’s been no talk of any consequences for me (but they’ll likely take away my bonus or raise—if I was even eligible for one this year).

    I can also kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel. We just hired a new employee (his “official” start date is today, but he’s been temping with us since June) so we can start giving him some stuff that we couldn’t give a temp (thanks to some very ironclad contracts and procedures). There’s also an admin starting in two weeks which will help a lot with certain projects.

    Just in time for our yearly audit which also coincides with our busiest season. And we just gained two new clients with a third possible.

    Okay, so that light at the end of the tunnel is really just a tiny pinprick.

    1. Working with professionals*

      This is when you need to pamper yourself in small ways to ease the stress. Get the good chocolate, the good wine (for home of course), your favorite tea/coffee and indulge yourself during the day. Keep focused on that pinprick of light and you’ll see it getting bigger as the new hires get up to speed. Hang in there!

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My perennial suggestion for people with a new hire is to ask the new hire to take notes in a copy of the department instructions doc so any recent changes can be documented (if intentional) or corrected. I first got this idea as a temp, because their instructions were so fAR out of date–and they were profusely thankful. (They even told my agency, and my next assignment was more interesting & paid better. Win-win!)

      1. MissBookworm*

        My first job as a temp was to update the manuals with everything I was learning! The manual I use the most went from 16 pages to over 40–there was so much missing. Whenever I’m training someone I’ll print out the relevant section of the manual and have them make notes on it, then their first job is to update with any changes. I also like to give them a blank notebook and I have them write everything down, not matter how insignificant it may be. That method saved me several times when I was first hired and even years later I sometimes refer back to those initial notes.

  42. Susan*

    Interesting times this week for me. I had posted a few weeks ago that I was struggling about being unhappy with my job but felt I didn’t actually have the emotional energy to search as my Dad is dying. Well – any decision was taken out of my hands on Wednesday, as I was laid off. Reaction? Shock and tears immediately. Now? Immense, IMMENSE joy. A great weight is lifted. I got a generous severance so I don’t have to worry about finding anything else immediately. My Dad is not expected to live much longer; when the time comes I can grieve without the pressure to be back to work.

    I am going to take the rest of the year off and not even think about job searching until January at the earliest. In the meantime I am going to take the time to enjoy myself – do day trips around the area, get back into hobbies and exercise…

    In time I will address any job search, possibly working with a job coach to decide next steps. I also might just decide to retire early, as with my inheritance I honestly could.

  43. BeanCat*

    I’m just feeling so run down. I’m not happy in my current role but don’t know how to find out what I DO actually want to do. I’m feeling stuck because the interview for the internal promotion I was encouraged to apply for ended with me being told it will likely never be a good fit for me.

    I know I’m still young, but I feel like I have to figure everything out nownownownow before I pass a point of no return and become completely unemployable.

    I just want to be content in my work (it doesn’t even have to be a lifelong dream job) and bring in enough money that I’m not a financial burden on my fiancé. I’m trying to find joy in my hobbies rather than work but that’s a struggle lately too. I’m just sort of spinning my wheels.

    Thanks for letting me vent. I hope your weeks have gone well enough, everyone!

    1. BeanCat*

      (Adding that I know there’s no way to tell if a job is a “dream job” from the outside – I just mean I’ll be happy enough if all I am is quietly satisfied.)

    2. Susie Q*

      I don’t have any advice. I’m in a very similar situation plus I just returned from maternity leave and I would 10000% rather be home with my baby.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have to admit my first reaction was oh good I’m not the only person who was glad to have been caught in a layoff.
      I’m glad you’ll have the time to spend with your dad. My sympathies.

    5. 1qtkat*

      I am in the same boat. Sorry to hear about your dad.
      I have been doing a lot of introspection about what I want to do that would be a fulfilling job/career. Also searching job boards using terms likely to lead to positions that may be interesting.

      I hope you find what you’re looking for!

  44. Leslie Knope*

    I had a phone interview a couple days ago and just received an email from the person I spoke to (the CEO) asking if I could come in and interview/meet the team in person. We discussed salary over the phone, but in the email the CEO asked me to remind him of my salary expectations. I will only consider an offer that at least meets my current salary I am making (FWIW I am paid very well in my city and probably am at the very top of this company’s pay range). How do I tactfully and clearly explain his over email?

    1. CAA*

      It doesn’t really matter why you want to earn a certain amount, so there’s no reason to explain what your current salary is and that you don’t want to earn less. There’s also no need to be tactful around having placed a value on your labor. Just be straightforward and say something like “As I mentioned during our call, the salary I am looking for is $xxxxxx.” You could also say “minimum salary” if you want.

    2. Toodie*

      Why do you have to explain it? If you’re well paid, you deserve it. It should say, “Hey, my current employer values me this much,” and be a point of pride instead of something you have to explain away.

      FWIW I have never heard of a man who felt he had to justify his salary. Why should any of us?

    3. Goldfinch*

      “I can’t justify leaving Current Company for less than X amount” is my go-to when the job title/duties are comparable or a step up. (So, not viable if you’re completely changing fields.) It communicates what needs to be communicated (I have a job, I’m willing to stay at it if you don’t show me adequate value, and I know my worth) without being apologetic or aggressive.

  45. Petty Chief*

    I’m looking into making a career change in the next year or two. I currently working in corporate communications, making a good salary with great benefits, working for a stellar boss. However, I have realized that this is not something I want to do forever. I’d like to move into more of an organizational/professional development/leadership role (currently working on a master’s in this area).

    Part of this career change is changing the type of work I do, but I also want to work for an organization that I feel connected to and feel like I’m making a difference. My head goes toward non-profits, but I’m worried about the pay. I currently am the sole breadwinner for my family (and likely will be for awhile, my husband is an artist), and I’m just not sure I could make a career in non-profits work. Plus, I worry about some of the dysfunction I hear about that happen in non-profits.

    Anyone have experience working in non-profits? What has been your experience?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve always worked in non-profits and higher ed. Just like any business, there are some with great structures and amazing leadership, and some that are banana pants crazy. It’s true that the pay isn’t always competitive with the market, but that isn’t always the case. I’d recommend looking really carefully at the work itself, who you’d be working with, the working conditions/salary/benefits/commute etc – while it’s great to feel connected to the mission, there will be days – a LOT of days – when you don’t feel inspired or like your work is changing the world.

      Since you’re working on a master’s in your chosen field, I’d recommend talking with the faculty about their experiences in the field, what to look out for, what you can expect, etc. Good luck!

    2. Ali G*

      I’ve worked for non profits for 11 out of my 16+ years of my professional life. I actually prefer it to my experience in the for-profit world. Could I make more money somewhere else? Probably, but I have never been underpaid. I’ve always had stellar benefits. I am on the Executive Team now, make low six figures and work 35 hours a week. I work with awesome, smart people who believe in our mission and do awesome work.
      I’m one of the first people around here who will always stand up for non-profits. It’s like there’s some rule that they have to be miserly and awful places to work. It’s not true.

    3. Jadelyn*

      I’ve been in nonprofits about 6 years now, and I have no intention of returning to the for-profit world, even if I do move on from my current nonprofit employer.

      The salaries are lower, but the culture is fantastic. And for me personally, it makes an enormous difference knowing my day-to-day work is going toward making the world a better place (as I define it, anyway), versus going toward making rich people richer.

      I know nonprofits have a Reputation, and sometimes it’s justified – but it depends heavily on the individual org. Some are awful and expect you to dedicate your entire life to them for pennies because it’s “for the Mission!” – but some are perfectly sane and understand concepts like work-life balance. Larger nonprofits are often run very similarly to same-sized for-profits, in my experience. You just need to make sure you do your due diligence when interviewing, check Glassdoor and Indeed reviews, talk to not only your interviewers but see if they’ll hook you up with others at the company to talk to, all that kind of stuff.

      If you’re leery of the nonprofit world, you might also consider looking for a for-profit that’s big on corporate social responsibility. That might work as a compromise for you.

    4. Kuirky*

      Have you considered working for your state government? I’m a state employee working at the SNAP office in my town and I feel that I’m making a difference, even if it’s just making sure that people have money to eat. The benefits are good as well, plus working for the state means there are a lot of jobs I could move into in the future.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      As an aside, also consider businesses that do something you consider worthy. Off the top of my under-caffeinated head, for me it’s industries creating or servicing prosthetics, fire-fighting equipment, life-safety systems, wheelchair & accessibility gear, and, well, I’ll just stop there.

  46. Ophelia*

    Hi all – I’m struggling to figure out how to help a colleague of mine and hoping some of you may be able to provide insights. Colleague (we’ll call her Amber) and I were hired around the same time and with the exact same title, Teapot Coordinator. We interviewed for the same exact job posting and I assume were offered the same salary. I am one year older than Amber and have a couple years more direct experience in our field, but we essentially (in theory) have the same job. The only difference is that Amber’s role has turned into 99% admin work for the department head and our entire department. I think it’s important to note here that there was literally one line of the entire job description that read something admin-like: “Assist department head with preparing for meetings.”

    We have become pretty close and Amber has disclosed her displeasure regarding how her role has changed to me several times – and I do not blame her! Our role was supposed to be creative, but hers is absolutely the opposite. She now refers to herself as “Department Head’s Assistant” (which is a much more accurate job title), but I think it’s a huge waste as Amber is very creative and talented but only has one or two projects (that she is keeping from department head for fear that they would be taken away) that align with her hired job description.

    I have told her that she needs to have an honest conversation about her role and the future of her position with department head, but right now is too busy and not an appropriate time. Amber has also made comments like “this is just part of paying my dues I suppose” – something that I don’t feel is fair to her as she was basically mislead about her role. I feel guilty when I have to ask her to help me with admin things like connecting to our printer or how to use the conference scheduling tool. She is literally the only person on our team that has the access and insight to accomplish these tasks, but I hate going to her for such menial things. I am worried she will leave, and that all her admin duties will fall to me – something I do not have the bandwidth for or interest in taking on!

    Does anyone have similar experience or advice?

    1. Wishing You Well*

      This sounds like Amber’s problem to solve. She must advocate for herself and stop referring to herself as “Department Head’s Assistant” if she doesn’t like admin work.
      You can offer moral support and learn to do your own admin-type tasks, but since you’re not her boss, I don’t think you can do anything more.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If your manager had written in, I’d suggest getting you both cross-trained and responsibilities divided more evenly.

      Is it worth it to you to take on some to prevent all from falling to you if she leaves? If yes, you can take it to your manager. No need to mention Amber”s discontent–just that you have realize two people need to have access like you mentioned, and two people need to be able to back up the director, because people get sick & need vacations.
      Bonus — if you think there’s enough work for two creative people AND an admin, point that out.

  47. Mr. Catastrophe*

    Sending and receiving email when out sick. I have an employee who was out last week having a minor medical procedure. While he was out, I sent him an email saying, essentially, “when you get back, can I get an update on X? If you’re reading this while you’re out, I hope the procedure went well and that you’re having a good recovery.” While I theoretically could have scheduled the email not to send until he was back in the office, nothing in my email indicated any urgency or even an expectation that he was reading email while he was out. Just a realization that he might be reading it. My employee told me yesterday that it was very upsetting that I emailed him while he was out and that he was still upset about it, a week later.
    I have browsed Alison’s responses to related questions, but what I found were all along the lines of “my boss expects me to respond to emails at all hours” or “my boss emails me asking me to do time-sensitive things when he knows I’m out sick.” This was one email, and I did not expect a response right away.
    I want to be able to point him to some resource that says “It is a professional expectation in 2019 that your boss might send an occasional email when you are not at work.” Any ideas? Or am I really in the wrong?

    1. Colette*

      Did you email him at home? Assuming you emailed his work email, I don’t see an issue with this at all – you were clear that you wanted an update when he was back in the office, and there was no expectation that he do anything while he’s out.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You don’t need a resource to point him to on this! You can just tell him, “When you are out, people will continue to email your work address, because that’s part of the course of doing business. There’s no expectation that you’ll check your work email until you’re back at work. If you don’t want to see work emails while you’re out, the best thing to do is not to log into your work email.” That’s it. (I’m assuming this went to his work email, not his personal email. If it was the latter, you should just apologize and not do that again.)

      1. Mr. Catastrophe*

        Yes, it was to his work email. He does have a work-provided cell phone, which is what he read the email on, but he had turned the phone on because he was expecting a personal call on it. Which is…not great. (He has the work phone because his position has him away from his desk a lot, not because he needs to be accessible after hours.)

        1. Aurion*

          Then he’s being a little ridiculous. You didn’t call him on his work or home phone. Email, by nature, is a form of asynchronous communication – email to inbox, read and respond at appropriate times. He’s out on medical leave; obviously the turnaround expectations for reading and responding during a regular business day didn’t apply.

          Use Alison’s excellent script and continue doing what you’re doing.

    3. CallofDewey*

      I maybe wouldn’t have added the line about reading this while you’re out- a lot of times employees feel pressure to do things even if their boss says it isn’t required. But he’s also definitely overreacting.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah that’s the only line that I had a slight sense of disquiet. I don’t think this is a big deal at all, but I guess the line “if you are” made him feel like you were hoping he was or thought it seemed likely that he was. Just a phrasing issue though it sounds like a miscommunication.

        I struggle with this all the time with my boss; she never disconnects, but I refuse to check email at all while I’m out, and I get the sense she wishes I would when I come back and see lots of emails from her.

    4. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

      I just want to join the “He’s being ridiculous” chorus. As Alison and others have noted, if he didn’t want to read work emails while he was out, the solution is to – you guessed it! – not read work emails while he was out. His coworkers are under no obligation to save up every email for when he gets back.

      As it happens, I, too, recently took a few days off for a medical procedure, and I, too, have a company-issued cell phone that I needed to have on for various reasons while I was out. So what I did was: Use the phone for calls and texts but NOT check my company email. See? Easy.

    5. Emilitron*

      It’s funny, I couldn’t say why your phrasing sits a bit oddly, maybe it’s something about asking for an update – as if he’s going to be the one with status news even though you were the one in the office all week? But for my workplace (where the norm is that people check emails occasionally while on vacations but don’t really read them and only reply if there’s an emergency) I would have inverted it to “I hope your recovery is going smoothly, remind me when you get back that we should catch up about X”.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        I like your phrasing better, Emilitron, but don’t have any problem with the original e-mail.

        I’m not sure why Mr. Catastrophe has such a problem with the employee checking his work phone and receiving a personal phone call. Is that such a big deal, really? These days we overlap between work and personal, that an employee getting a personal phone call on his company phone every once in awhile shouldn’t be a big deal. So I wouldn’t worry about that.

        I don’t see why he’s upset at the e-mail, though. As others have said, he didn’t have to check it, and he certainly didn’t get an action to do anything that had to be done before he got back to work. It was perfectly reasonable.

        1. Mr. Catastrophe*

          Now that it’s Monday, I assume you aren’t going to see this, but my point regarding the personal call was more one of “if he doesn’t want to be using his work phone while he’s out, which is perfectly legitimate, why isn’t his doctor calling him on a personal line?” This could be a generational thing, though. He might not have a personal cell phone.

  48. Rusty Shackelford*

    To the coworker who comes to my neighbor’s office EVERY DAY and spends 30 minutes standing in the doorway chitchatting… I’m not opposed to chitchat, but can you please GO IN THE OFFICE?

    1. yay november*

      I’ve had good luck before with going up to them and asking if they can close the door. This will also do the good work of either shoving them into the office (behind the closed door) or breaking up the conversation.

  49. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    Is there anything I can or should do about this?

    I was meeting yesterday with one of my bosses and she wanted to assign a new project with a collaborator at another institution (I work in academia). Sounds great, so she offers to introduce me to this other group’s contact for the task, who is a PhD staff member. She types up the email with me sitting next to her and introduces the other person using their title, and introduces me as “the person who will be handling this project”. My title literally indicates that I am THE person to be handling this project, so she undermined both me and the competence of our group with this one. Not to mention, it’s not like I’m unqualified or anything, I have a graduate degree that relates to this work and I did my undergrad in the specific area of this project. I have had other rumblings from a coworker before that she doesn’t think too highly of my background, but she’s the one who hired me, so I can’t really fix that.

    I feel like it’s probably not worth spending capital on, but geez, it’s annoying to have a boss who does not value me.

    1. OtterB*

      Can you appeal to your boss’s interest in upholding the competence of your group, if not you personally, by saying that saying it that way doesn’t convey that you have the knowledge and skills to be a good fit for the project?

    2. Qwerty*

      Maybe its because I’m not in academia, but I’m confused as to what is upsetting here. It’s very normal for my boss to refer to me as “This is Qwerty, she’ll be handling this project” rather than “This is Qwerty, she’s a Technical Manager”. The external person I’m being connected to is usually given a more detailed description because to explain why we are pulling in someone from outside the team/department/company. She spelled out that were in charge of this particular project, so its not like the other person is being misled about your position.

      Or is the issue that they introduced the collaborator as “Dr Jane Smith” and you were “Ariana Grande, the person who will be handling this project” instead of “Professor Ariana Grande”? “Doctor” seems to be only professional title that gets used in common place language so I’m struggling to come up with an equivallent that I would expect to be used in an introduction. Even the Dean at our college was introduce “John Snow” rather than “Dean John Snow”

    3. consultinerd*

      Coming from outside academia, I’m a little confused as to why you feel undermined here. In my experience its not uncommon for a manager to tell a collaborator/client “so and so will help you out with X” without referencing their title. Is there something unique about your title in relation to the project that makes excluding it weird? You write that neglecting to mention it made it sound like you were unqualified, but the fact that she delegated this work to you implicitly shows that she trusts you to be able to do it, correct?

      It’s always nice to for your boss to talk you up to people outside your immediate colleagues, whether by explicitly praising your abilities/accomplishments, referencing a fancy title, etc., but not doing so in a given interaction isn’t a slight (unless they’re constantly doing that in reference to another co-worker but not you).

  50. Grayber*

    I got laid off this week after only being at the job for 9 months. How bad will this look on my resume? The reasons behind the layoff are pretty understandable once I explain it (newer industry hit hard by unexpected events way out of the company’s control) but I’m very worried I’ll never get to the stage where I can explain it to interviewers.

    1. yay november*

      I think it’s fine, personally. You weren’t fired. Your position got eliminated. Especially since it’s an industry-wide thing, it’d be known.

    2. londonedit*

      It’s fine. I was made redundant after six months earlier on in my career, and people have always completely accepted that as a reason for leaving that job. Redundancies/layoffs aren’t the employee’s fault, they’re an employer’s solution to not having enough money to keep going with their previous staffing levels.

    3. Jamie*

      If you’re in manufacturing you won’t have to explain it. We all know our recession already started.

    4. ElizabethJane*

      If the rest of your work history is even sort of solid and steady you won’t have an issue. I’ve been laid off after less than a year, and I’ve quit after less than a year, but my work history at other companies is all over 2 years and it’s never even been an issue. I have been asked “Why did you leave ABC company” but it was always with the tone of “What were you looking for that this job didn’t have?” and not “ZOMG HOW DARE YOU LEAVE SO QUICKLY”

      1. Grayber*

        It mostly is? Unfortunately a lot of the relevant experience I’m listing was one-off projects/internships/volunteering that only lasted a few months. The jobs I’ve had that lasted 2 and 3 years are all pretty irrelevant to the industry I’m trying to work in.

      1. Grayber*

        Nope! Though my sympathies really go out to those people. Ex-job was hit by a public health crisis.

      2. WeWork employee*

        The rumored 4K layoffs haven’t truly hit yet – I’m sure you’ll see that break this month when it happens.

        Interviewers don’t really ask why we’re leaving WeWork while searching, though (:

    6. Qwerty*

      It’s easier to explain than you think! It’s very common for newer people to be the ones affected by layoffs. If you industry in general is struggling, that makes it even easier to explain:

      “Like many teapot companies, Tiny Teapots was hit hard by recent struggles in the tea industry. I was laid off when they downsized to adjust to changes in the market”

      If you can manage to not sound bitter, it is unlikely they will hold it against you.

    7. Mr. McGillicuddy*

      I got laid off after 5 weeks on the job (along with 80% of the company) and it didn’t hurt me or my career.

      Good luck!

  51. Third or Nothing!*

    TLDR: I get to write again!!!

    Longer version:
    My company outsources their website maintenance and blog posts to a company that specializes in SEO and stuff like that. They send us blog posts for approval, and everything we get requires quite a bit of work to make it presentable. One of the higher ups (let’s call him Bob) used to spend way too much of his valuable time editing this nonsense.

    A few months ago I told my boss that I was interested in taking on more responsibilities, learning more about our industry, and doing more cross training. So Bob comes to me one day and tells me he thinks I’d be perfect to take over the editing due to my marketing background. HECK YES I WILL!

    One week the SEO company sent us something completely unsalvagable. It was so far off brand for us that there was no way we could edit it into something we could post on our website. Think writing a piece on how to cook a steak for PETA. So I offered to write a post on that topic from scratch. And Bob loved it so much it got posted with no edits! And later today we are meeting to discuss a rough draft of my second post! If I keep producing quality work like this, I’m going to suggest they bring blog posts in house and have me write them all. And maybe I can even get some training on SEO and take that over too!

    I’m so happy to get to use my marketing degree again! I missed writing copy and I miss playing with stats.

    1. Red Fraggle*

      1) OMG I am so very happy for you! Write all things! Validation!

      2) Your username makes me wriggle with joy.

    2. Third or Nothing!*

      Update: there were some edits to the second post, but I was not surprised by them. I knew I had a weak section that was out of my area of expertise and needed a bit of help with it. After a few tweaks it’s scheduled to post soon!

  52. Paralegal Part Deux*

    I have a question about resumes. I’m a paralegal, and I know I should list hard accomplishments on a resume like “accomplished X“ or “maintained Y projects”. However, I don’t really work on projects that have hard accomplishments that can go on a typical resume. All I really do is draft documents all day for the attorneys, maintain files, calendar dates, etc. I’m not sure how to put all of this on a resume to make it look good to a hiring manager. It all sounds like soft skills to me.

    Any advice?

    1. rayray*

      One thing I put on mine from my job as a legal proofreader was something along the lines of “Proofread legal documents to correct errors and inconsistencies in spelling, grammar, and format to ensure clear communication and accuracy to maintain the professional integrity of the law firm”

      So it’s not *exactly* one of those amazing “I accomplished x and got y results, resulting in z awesomeness for the company” but this might be a way to make rather mundane tasks sound a little better, rather than just simply saying “I worked on legal documents”.

      Maybe that’s bad – maybe a resume expert in the comments can help us out, but could you try coming up with sentences like that one?

      1. rayray*

        One more piece of advice. When I was last putting my resume together, I did some google searches, things like “How to write descriptions for paralegal in my resume” . I found websites that has lists of examples and worked off of those. Try searching things like that for the job you have, and the job you want and you could come up with something. Also, I see Alison has linked some super helpful articles below with great tips. It’s tough, but I knowyou can come up with great stuff for your resume.

        1. Paralegal Part Deux*

          It’s so hard to figure out a way to say “obtained tax payer identification numbers from the IRS” in a way that would grab anyone’s attention, you know? I only say this because I found a corporate paralegal job I want to apply for (though I think it’s a long shot since it would have to be a remote position but what the heck), and one of their requirements is having obtained EINs from the IRS.

  53. Canary*

    Is my dept director trying to warn me about being laid off or is it some weird rambling?

    Been in a new role for almost three months now at a small company (~60 employees). Our client base is centered around clothing and textile companies but we hear about how our biggest clients being in financial trouble or even filing for bankrupcy.

    Now, my director always seems to lament about how young people are moving away from buying clothes and how our company isn’t doing so well right now. Everytime I get a moment to speak to the director about something private, he’s very friendly but ends with the same doom-and-gloom talk. He hasn’t hinted that my role would be cut (I’m in the smallest department that would be most directly affected by bad business) but it makes me uncomfortable that he keeps bringing it up. Am I looking too much into this? Or should I start looking for another job?

    1. Michelle*

      How are young people moving away from buying clothes? Unless you live in a nudist colony, people need clothes.

      1. fposte*

        If people only bought clothes based on the need to cover themselves, the industry would tank immediately. People buy clothes for fashion, for gratification, etc. There’s some concern that fast fashion isn’t going as well as it was, and Canary may be referring to Forever 21, which just went bankrupt.

        1. Canary*

          Yup you pretty much hit the nail as to what I was getting at. Our company is trying to branch out but we’re not doing so hot and huge retailers like Forever 21 going down doesn’t help. Now I’m wondering whether I should jump ship when I’ve finally managed to find a position after job hunting for over 4 months :/

      2. Alianora*

        Mid-20s here and while I wouldn’t say I’m “moving away from buying clothes” I think it’s becoming more common for people in my age group to not buy as many new clothes from fast fashion companies. Thrifting is bigger than ever (personally, a good 75% of my clothes are thrifted) and there are other movements like slow fashion, minimalism/capsule wardrobes, zero waste, and anticonsumption that all kind of collide with buying fewer new clothes.

    2. Mazzy*

      You are absolutely not reading too much into this. I follow the markets and was just reading about how we’re in a manufacturing recession and were in an earnings recession as of last quarter (reports for publicly traded companies for the third quarter aren’t done yet so it might not continue). I’ve seen some steep declines in earnings at some companies but also some large increases, so it’s a mixed bag and doesn’t point to an imminent downturn, but if your boss is talking about it, the rest of the economy is not pertinent. I’d definitely start working on that emergency fund, which we all should be doing anyway.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I don’t think he is directly (or subtly) trying to ‘warn you’ as such but the ramblings have some truth behind them if your biggest clients are in financial trouble and so on (I’m assuming this is a fact in your industry, I don’t know anything about the clothing industry)

      As such if I were in your position I’d start looking around for a similar role in a company in a different, more buoyant industry. I may be wrong but I feel like you are the type (as am I) to hear things, read into them (rightly or wrongly as it may be), second-guess our own position…

      It depends on how essential is what your company does for those clients really e.g. if they are in financial trouble, would your company’s services be one of the first they would cut?

  54. Tired*

    Just a little venting. It’s almost time I’ll be turning in my resignation to my ughboss and her boss. i hate being so anxious about it and overthink everything. My boss has been my friend for more than a decade, but I just realised what a bad boss/manager she is after actually working under her for almost a year. After a lot of dawdling I’m finally closing in on the resignation date, which is this late November.

    My future plan is to try getting a PR invitation from Canada, I really hope that I will get it and find a proper job there. Actually, I’m not picky, I just want to move out from my country bc of horrible memories. After I turn in my resignation in late November, I’ll have my last day on late December. I i really want to take a month off to heal, because this job has done quite a number on my mental health. Whilst on the break, I will also look into Canada PR and maybe apply to overseas company… maybe I should also try a therapist first and take care of my issues. I have really bad anxieties and probably depression as well, maybe also PTSD. I prolly should check with a professional to really determine what’s up with me (but it’s gonna require quite a bit of money…)

    Oh well. I’m mostly excited to resign and get the heck out of this place haha. Hope you’re all having a great day!

    1. Wendy*

      Good luck! Not to bust your bubble, but you might want to start looking into the PR stuff now depending on the type you’re applying for. It took me 13 months to get an invitation from the time I applied and I was already living and working in Canada.

      1. Tired*

        Thank you! That’s what I’m worried about, but after opening dozens of Chrome tabs about Canada PR, I got anxious and distracted myself with other tasks instead for weeks now. I really should get back to it! I’ve tried the points calculation simulation and I’m short on the cutoff point from the last batch, but I’ll check again. Also I need to look up other ways to just fly there and start working haha oh goodness.

  55. Hiding pregnancy at work*

    In light of the post last week about the boss who figure out their employee was pregnant, what tips do you guys have for hiding a pregnancy before you’re ready to tell people?

    1. Third or Nothing!*

      I had great success hiding my baby bump with high waist skirts. My usual wardrobe is a nice blouse tucked in to a high waist fit and flare skirt. I was able to dress like this my entire pregnancy and got away with lots of things pregnant people aren’t “supposed” to do because no one could tell if I was pregnant or just ate too many tacos.

      I scheduled midwife appointments around the lunch hour so I wasn’t out much longer than a usual lunch time would be. I drink most of my coffee before I get to work, so it’s not like anyone could notice if I cut back, but if I wanted to still look like I was drinking coffee I’d put herbal tea in my cup.

    2. Also pregnant at work*

      Personally, I wore as many shirts as I could that would cover the fact my stomach was getting larger. I’m pretty petite, so I started showing by about week 10 depending on the shirts I would wear. I tried for more loose tunic-style shirts and any “illnesses” due to said pregnancy was set as sick time and passed off as a weird 24-hr bug. I told my only boss early on so he would be aware and he was great at helping cover for me until I was ready.

    3. Hiding pregnancy at work*

      I meant more socially – covering the frequent doctors appointment and declining a beer at the weekly happy hour (that you used to organize)

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        Declining beer: “oh I’m just cutting back for a bit!” People reduce alcohol consumption for any number of reasons. You could be trying to lose weight, cutting back because you feel you’ve been drinking too much, training for a marathon, trying to save money, etc. Alternatively you could order my go-to pregnancy drink: seltzer with lime and agave. Looks like a fancy margarita, tastes like a limeade.

        Can you schedule stuff around your lunch break? It’s less noticeable to be out of the office then, even if the appointment takes a while.

      2. Natalie*

        At least for me, I didn’t have enough doctor’s appointments in the first trimester to really require an explanation (and that was with a round of IUI), but I also work at a place that is pretty casual about working hours and appointments so YMMV.

        If the happy hour is at a bar, there are a lot more options for non alcoholic beers and mocktails these days. Most people won’t quiz you. If it’s an in-office happy hour, have a conflict for the next couple of months that prevent you from organizing it.

      3. ElizabethJane*

        Say you’re trying the keto diet. It’s hugely popular right now and you can’t drink anything on it other than hard liquor because carbs. And even hard liquor should be done sparingly. If you’re in a position where you should ask for a cocktail get a virgin anything-mixed-with-soda and you’ll be incognito.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Eh, that could turn into “well why are you eating tortilla chips?!” or someone wanting to get into the details of their diet; I wouldn’t take this route.

      4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Alcohol is a big migraine trigger for me. Also allergy medicine is iffy with alcohol (Zyrtec, Claritin, Allegra, Benadryl, doxepin which is actually an antidepressant used off label). Hops are flowers, and if you have pollen allergies you can say you’re eliminating all potential cross-allergens until hayfever season is over, etc.

      5. M*

        It’s the start of a month. Declare that you’re doing Dryvember, and when you get to the end of the month say you’ve decided to carry it through to the end of the year. (“I never realised just how much I was spending on after-work drinks! I figure this is a great way to save for Christmas presents.”)

    4. Bloopmaster*

      A) Winter is easier than summer because sweaters, jackets, scarves, etc. are very useful for concealing.
      B) Getting a whole new wardrobe (especially when the seasons aren’t changing) can be a dead give-away. Wear your normal clothes as long as possible. OR update your look to more pregnancy-friendly styles (loose waists, etc.) well in advance of getting pregnant, if possible.
      C) Going up a bra size or two (which you probably will need anyway…) helps you look more proportional for longer, and can minimize the effect of the growing tummy budge.
      D) This dress (and similar styles) did an amazing job of minimizing tum. It became my interview dress, and did a very good job of concealing everything even when I was 4-5 months pregnant: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SJSMK12/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
      E) Medication to deal with morning sickness, because the last thing you want is to be running to the bathroom every 10 minutes. People tend to pick up on that.
      F) Keep snacks you can tolerate on hand at all times.

    5. Also also pregnant at work*

      I mentioned casually that I cut back on drinking as part of a health kick, and tried to schedule appointments either first thing in the morning or later in the afternoon to avoid coming in and out.

      But despite all of my best efforts (I’m lucky to have a pretty flexible schedule with respect to appointments), I still ended up with coworkers (and senior management!) speculating about my pregnancy before I was ready to tell them. Unfortunately, people tend to notice changes in behavior and–even more unfortunately–what your body looks like when you spend all work week in the same place. The majority of people are too polite to say anything directly to you, but it does make for some awkward “announcements” when the response is “yep, we figured.”

    6. cmcinnyc*

      I remember the coworker who wore SeaBands at her desk–dead giveaway. As someone who dealt with a lot of morning sickness (and afternoon sickness, and night sickness) for my full term, my heart went out to her. But yeah, she was so busted. No one said anything, but everyone knew. So hide your saltines, your ginger lollipop, your prenatal vitamins, etc.

    7. Marzipan*

      So far I am getting away with it (I think) by wearing things with what could best be described as an ambiguous waistline – my current go-to outfits are an asymmetrical sack-like dress, jumpers that hang in a swaggy way, and a very erratically-patterned crossover top that sort of blouses out in a way where it’s completely impossible to see where any part of my abdomen really is. (I’m like the human equivalent of one of those cats that you assume is all cat, and then when you stroke it you realise it’s actually almost entirely very solid cat.) Most of these were outfits I already had and wore to work anyway, and the newer stuff fits in with the kinds of things I normally wear. (It helps that I was quite fat to begin with and always had epic boobs anyway.)

      Socially, I already didn’t drink alcohol, tea or coffee, so I haven’t had to do too much to cover things up on that front. I’ve been getting out of lifting heavy things (not that that’s a real concern, but just to be on the safe side) by blaming a feeling that I might be going to have a back spasm.

      For appointments, my work are somewhat used to me disappearing off to medical appointments from time to time, because it’s taken five years of fertility treatment to get to this point. Not that they knew the nature of those appointments, but I think by now they just have me mentally filed as having some sort of ongoing background health issue and don’t really think about it.

    8. Clementine*

      Sometimes you can just tell (of course, I would never ask about it or gossip, but sometimes I just knew), and that’s just the way it is.
      I know I was not able to hide when I had to run to the bathroom to throw up.
      Do your best, but it’s largely out of your control.

  56. JobHunting*

    I have an interview next week and has a fashion question. I work in Finance and my go to is a light gray pant suit with black shell and black heeled booties. Unfortunately the pants were involved in a laundry mishap courtesy of my husband and now are unavailable for use. Would it look less professional to wear black pants, black shell, black booties, and the gray jacket? I tried it on together and thought it looked pretty sharp but since my field is very conservative I have concerns. The interview is for a mid-level individual contributor role with a large manufacturer in the area and not a financial institution or CPA firm if that matters.

    The suit is several years old so I am not confident I will be able to find the same color pants although I am heading out to the store where I originally bought them this weekend to try. If I am unsuccessful, do I need to buy a black suit jacket to go with my current pants? Would probably cost me in the neighborhood of $150-$200.

    1. Me*

      I think it’s absolutely fine. Gray on black isn’t going to raise eyebrows. Maybe if you were pulling out a hot pink with fur trim blazer, but what you have sounds perfectly appropriate.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      The gray jacket sounds perfectly appropriate. It would be harder to find a black jacket to perfectly match your pants, and it can look not as professional if your black pant and black jacket don’t exactly match.

      1. JobHunting*

        The black pants are quite new and I know the company still has the matching suit jacket in stock – it is just very expensive for something that gets worn very rarely. I got the gray suit on an amazing sale but the black is still full price.

    3. Holly*

      Any chance you are in a financial situation where you can order a new jacket, or get a new pantsuit entirely? For a conservative interview I don’t know if I’d wear a mismatched jacket and pants

      1. JobHunting*

        Financially yes, time wise probably not. The gray jacket was tailored (have to order several sizes larger for my shoulders and arms so the waist was reshaped a bit so I didn’t look like a kid wearing her dad’s jacket) and even if I am able to get the matching jacket tomorrow there is no time to get it altered.
        And while I can afford it, I don’t want to spend $200 on a jacket I will wear a handful of times and then sit in the closet for the 5-10 years I tend to stay at jobs. Shoes absolutely. I love shoes.

  57. Human Form of the 100 Emoji*

    My coworkers and I are going to take Allison’s perennial advice and get together to go to our boss collectively with our grievances about his management style (lack of communication, micromanagement, flip-flopping instructions, forgetfullness, etc etc). However, from all the information I’ve gathered about my boss over the past few months here, I think there’s a possibility he’ll retaliate against us for our critiques. Any advice about how to avoid this? Recording the meeting? Including his boss? We’re all younger and haven’t really had experience with doing this kind of thing.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I wouldn’t have a lot of faith your boss will change much in response to those specific complaints. He just sounds like a bad manager, and bad managers don’t know what to do differently without pretty dedicated coaching, generally from above them. You’re probably better off giving the feedback to someone above him, although whether or not to do that depends on the factors I talk about here:
      https://www.askamanager.org/2012/04/when-should-you-go-over-your-bosss-head.html

    2. fposte*

      I’d think carefully before doing it at all, tbh, and the framing of “critiques” is one that could lead you into trouble. Alison does advise going together as a group when necessary, but usually it’s a request for an action; management style is going to be one of the toughest things to approach that way because you’re basically saying “Don’t be how you are” rather than “Can we reconsider this policy?” And you’ve got a bit of a laundry list to boot, which is a hard thing to process. (And it’s not like he’s going to become less forgetful because somebody doesn’t like it.) Right now this sounds like you guys have been talking about ways in which he could be a better boss and you want to tell him that. And I think that’s got a low chance of success and a high chance of blowback.

      So I’d instead consider two or at most three *actionable* requests for things to do rather than ways he shouldn’t be. Do you want more regular meetings? Do you want feedback to come a different way? Do you want access to his calendar? If you can’t come up with specific actionable requests, I don’t think I’d go to him.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I’d also try to be as specific as possible. Changing directions and flipflopping might be the best one to approach this way. “Boss, Sarah and I would like to debrief on the X project. It started out this way, but then Y happened and as a consequence Z. How can we make sure the next project goes better?” Not – you are a flip flopper, stop flip flopping.

        1. fposte*

          Yes, excellent example, and it also helps that your meeting is officially “Debriefing on the X project” rather than “Important meeting about how boss bosses.” And consider whether you need everybody to come for that one or not.

          1. Human Embodiment of the 100 Emoji*

            I should have been more specific, we are going to come up with specific action items, although I am now realizing that some will be easy (aka please specifically put whether you’re on leave or teleworking on your calendar) and some will be very difficult to address this way. We’re a team of five people, so everyone is involved on most projects and we all feel affected by his management issues, so that’s why everyone is going to go together to talk to him.

            I do feel deep down that Allison is right and he’s not going to change, but its been very upsetting to realize that. I moved across the entire country for this job because it seemed like such a great opportunity for my career, and I don’t want to leave an otherwise good job because of my boss’s horrible management.

            1. Mockingjay*

              What’s been helpful for me is asking Alison’s question: what outcome do I want to get from this?

              Realizing that you’ll likely not get all that you want, pick your top 2 or 3 issues. If you have ideas for solutions, pitch those with them.

              To avoid putting Boss on the defensive, try framing him as part of the solution: “Boss, as you know, we’ve experiencing schedule delays on our projects due to changing requirements. Going forward, let’s have a kickoff meeting in which we nail down the scope. We’ll record the requirements in the minutes. We’d like you to approve them so they become the authoritative source for the project going forward. What do you think?” When he agrees (most bosses will, especially since all he had do is “bless” the minutes – not much effort on his part), thereafter you can refer to the approved scope.

              You’ll never retrain him fully, so figure out his worst 2 or 3 habits to address and let the rest go.

            2. fposte*

              That’s understandable! Just hear what several of us are saying: that doesn’t mean this is a good way to address that or a good plan in general. I would certainly take things that “will be very difficult to address this way” off the agenda, plain and simple.

              I really also like Mockingjay’s framing as making this about process and not people, and I would, as I said elsewhere, extend that to the subject of the meeting. This is not “Could we talk to you about some things that have concerned us?” meeting; this is “We’re seeing some ways the workflow could be improved and wanted to propose them to you.”

              I would also encourage you to think a little about what leaving would look like and how it could be okay; don’t make it the untouchable thought. It’s quite likely that you will leave because of him at some point, even if it’s not right now, and that doesn’t have to be a tragedy, just a bummer that he’s squandering such organizational potential.

            3. Tabby Baltimore*

              One thing you all, as a group, might want to consider for each change item is, how much change will satisfy you? Put another way, using the calendar example above, his agreeing to add his calendar status for BOTH teleworking AND leave status would be getting his 100% cooperation; his agreeing to only add his teleworking OR his leave status to the calendar would be 50% cooperation. So, could you all walk away from a meeting with him with only a 50% solution, and still be satisfied with the outcome? As long as you all can remember that he (probably) has an array of solution options for each issue, and to be emotionally prepared to accept some level less-than-100% as an outcome, it might help you all frame your meeting as “mostly successful” rather than as a “glass half-empty.” Please let us know how it went, and good luck.

    3. CAA*

      “Recording the meeting?”
      Be very careful with recordings. In some states it’s a crime to record audio (whether on the phone or in person) without informing everyone in the conversation. Even if it’s not a crime where you are, it’s still a shady thing to do, so you really have to inform him that he’s being recorded. And once you inform him, the whole meeting becomes a lot more confrontational.

      Also, I see Alison already answered you above, but I think you may have misinterpreted the times when she advises that collective action is appropriate. I’ve never seen her recommend having a “we want to air our grievances against you as an individual manager” type of meeting. Collective pushback works better when there’s a specific policy or action that’s having a negative effect on multiple employees, and even then you still have to use it very judiciously. Read the story of the interns who got fired for petitioning to change the dress code before you attempt it.

    4. quirkypants*

      I’m assuming this is something you’ve tried to address individually already?

      If so, going over your boss’s head head makes sense. If not, I’d do that first.

      If I were your grandboss my first question would be, have you brought up any of these concerns to your boss already.

  58. Mona Lisa*

    People who have a 9-5 and a professional arts career: do you use the same name for both?

    I’m interviewing for voice acting work, and while this would be my first gig, it’s a field I’ve always had an interest in. My current employment and experience is in IT/database management. Currently the first thing one finds by searching my name is my LinkedIn. If I were to get more into this (I know, cart before the horse), I worry that future employers might see the artistic work and think I’m not serious about my day job. I used to do theater and was less concerned in the early days of my career whether people found those associations with me, but many years later, they’ve mostly fallen off my search radar and I’ve removed them from my professional profiles.

    So would you/do you use the same name for multiple facets of your professional life if they’re very divergent interests? Or do you use a pseudonym for your more artistic pursuits?

    1. blink14*

      I have a close friend who has a professional arts career, and he does not use a stage or pen name. He lists his arts profession as basically a personal business on his LinkedIn, and then the rest of his employment history. He has marginally involved former co-workers in his arts career (as in attending performances on occasion), but otherwise I think he’s put it out there that he has an arts career on the side. He mainly works in finance as his “day job”.

      The same goes for another friend, though his full time job is in an artistic industry anyway.

    2. cmcinnyc*

      I use the same name. My LinkedIn is just my arts stuff. People who look me up because of my 9-5 sometimes come to me and say “Did you know there’s an [artist] named [your name]!?” Yes, Bob. Yes I do.

    3. Stacy Sloan Smith*

      This is so hard, without revealing too much I had to make this decision last year and still wrestle with it. On the one hand, I’m glad that use my real name so I can leverage my network (old friends, family, coworkers, etc) to get them involved with the platform that supports my art – they can find me easily on instagram/FB, whatever, without having to be like, “oh right Stacy Smith goes by Mercedes Angelica for this, I guess I have to look that up” – and if they run into my stuff, they’re going to go, “omigod Stacy! I work with her!” and be excited and sign up / RT / whatever. On the other hand, it creeps me out to muddy the waters at work, I don’t like that this is what comes up if anyone were to google me, and for personal security it’s the pits bc I’d be easier to stalk based on public records.

    4. Goldfinch*

      First, does someone already use your name in an arts-related field? Do they have memberships that would preclude your using the same name (such as SAG)? If so, the decision has already been made for you. You will need to at least slightly alter it (i.e., Michael B. Jordan).

      Second, is sexism an issue? It is in my creative field (sci-fi), so I use initials. I presume voice acting is somewhat different in that your gender may play a part in what they’re looking for, but I don’t know for sure.

  59. Robot Fencer*

    Can I get an “amen” from everyone who hates corporate charity donation drives?

    My employer bought a competitor for $5.6 billion a couple of years ago. If they really cared about giving to charity, they could have donated that instead of expanding.

    Personally, I’m underpaid. I’m not gonna help them look good by giving away some of my money to the charity that they want. (For the record, I do donate to charities that *I* choose when I can afford to.

    1. Sunflower Sea Star*

      Same. My company solicits employee donations to it’s own crisis fun, and then sends out glowing emails about how the *company* helps people with it. As if the company put corporate money into the fund. You want accolades, don’t make employees foot the bill.

    3. Stacy Sloan Smith*

      Ugh, my company just announced their big employee contribution drive. We are a charity. We are paid charity wages. It’s crappy to try to squeeze extra money out of us. Past places I’ve worked have done this, but they’ve always been careful to specify that any amount even a dollar is great. This workplace has a suggested donation of $50!

    4. Lady Kelvin*

      Yeah, my office just started advertising the CFC (combined federal campaign) and we live in a very very high cost of living place. People who started here 20 years ago could buy a house on our PhD entry level salary, now my childless colleagues qualify for subsidized housing. Its very tone deaf.

    5. Nervous Nellie*

      Robot Fencer, you can get an ‘amen’ AND a whoop-whoop! It’s charity time at my office too, and there is considerable pressure to participate. My standard line when asked is, “Thanks, but I’ve already donated my year’s charity funds. Good luck to you!”. That the charity is Nervous Nellie LLC, and that it promises “ongoing financial support for a future little old lady’s medical bills” is none of their business.

  60. Brandi*

    I got my current job about 3 months ago and I really enjoy it. It’s at a place I had worked previously, but in a different department a little over a year after I left the first time. I have a FT position, but a week before my position opened for applicants, there was a similar position but in a seasonal capacity. The seasonal position was displayed at $15.76/he while the FT position pay was based on experience. Once I was offered my position, as I’m 3 credits short of my degree still, I was offered at $14.76. I needed the job, so I agreed, but now I’m wondering if I’m being underpaid when a similar position without the same educational/experience requirements was displayed and apparently offered at a higher rate than I’m currently earning. How would I bring this up with HR to make a case if I have one?

    1. CAA*

      I think you can just ask about it. “I noticed this seasonal position pays $1/hr more than I’m currently making. It seems to be the exact same work I do, so can I ask why there’s a pay discrepancy?”

      It may be that seasonal work doesn’t include benefits that you get in your FT position; or maybe they pay more because it’s a temp role during the busy season and they need to attract more experienced people who can hit the ground running and work at high speed for 3 months while your job has more ups and downs throughout the year. These are valid reasons for the pay differential and you don’t really have a case for getting the higher wage in your FT position if they have a reason like this. It shouldn’t hurt to ask about it though.

  61. waiting*

    I’m waiting to hear back today on a job… it’s the first job where I’ve ever attempted to negotiate salary. I think I gave them a figure they may go for. I really hope I get this job because it’s a very nice one and it would be a shame if I had to turn them down over salary. My current job pays a bit better, but the company is going down the tubes. Fingers crossed.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Good luck! And depending on what you mean by the company going “down the tubes”… it may be wise to take the job (if offered) even if the salary is a little lower than what you hoped, to have a ‘guaranteed’ job in a presumably more stable company.

  62. Bobs Your Uncle*

    I’ve been working with my Boss for several years now in a mentor/mentee dynamic, to gain credentials and experience in order to move up the chain in my company to a more advanced position. The problem is, my Boss seems to always be moving the “target” in terms of what I need to accomplish in order to qualify for the desired promotion. Every time we discuss my professional goals and what it will take to reach them, it seems like she tells me a different diploma, credential, or route in order to advance, and the new parameters are always more difficult to obtain and require years more education or experience in my current role. I get the feeling she isn’t being honest with me and that she has no intention of ever promoting me. For clarity, I work in a field where you do need some credentials in order to move up the chain, but these aren’t super specific. My boss originally said if I got xyz education I could get xyz job. Once I got that required education, it was no longer what was “needed” for the role I am trying to qualify for. However, a different employee got the same education a few years ago and that was all he needed to get the desired promotion, not further hoops to jump through.

    So, what should I do? I am already looking for a new job, but I’ve invested so much time and money into my current role and advancing that it feels really devastating to walk away from it now. How do I communicate to my boss that they’ve broken promises, moved the target, and seem to not actually want me to move up, despite how much they encourage my efforts? One last detail * my boss is extremely good at “lawyering” in their conversations; twisting words without you realizing, changing the point of the conversation, deflecting, and generally not easily pinned to a topic and is good at giving non-answers. I am, admittedly, not great at having these tough conversations either. Any suggestions?

    1. Wishing You Well*

      Put your energy into looking for a new job. I think you have a clear understanding that you will not be promoted in your current job. You have that xyz education; it’s time to parlay that into a more promising job.
      Best of luck.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Agreed. Think of it not as “I’ve invested so much in this place, I really need to see this promotion through” and more “I’ve invested in my career, time to see what it buys me somewhere else.”

        I wouldn’t bother trying to convince them that they’re not keeping up their end of the bargain. It’s something they can easily defend, after all most of what you’re doing IS probably valuable and promotion-worthy and when you do land something bigger and better, they will be happy to take credit for pushing you toward greatness. In the meantime, your mentor doesn’t sound all that worth having as a mentor. Mentors don’t keep raising the bar in lieu of helping you progress. Sounds like someone who is more interested in arguing semantics and keeping you jumping through hoops than looking out for your best interests.

    2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Your boss sounds manipulative, and whether or not it’s intentional doesn’t matter—same effect on you either way. Maybe she finds you too valuable in your current role to promote you. Or maybe she doesn’t think you’re a good fit for the prospective roles but doesn’t have the spine to give you real feedback. And she hopes that all her word-lawyering will distract you from picking up on the shifting expectations. Or something else entirely. A real mentor (and a good manager) would be straight with you. Ugh. I’m sorry.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Sorry to tell you but your boss is just stringing you along.

      Look up “sunk cost fallacy” (if you don’t already know it — if so, this is what this is) in relation to where you say: ‘ I’ve invested so much time and money into my current role and advancing that it feels really devastating to walk away from it now’

      I’m sure your boss is very good at “lawyering”. They are a master manipulator!

  63. alana smithee*

    I am currently looking for a new position, in part because my department leadership decided that instead of using a system that the company has several FTEs dedicated to, we would have a system of our own and do everything “ourselves”. I have been in implementation hell these past few months, with a boss who has limited tech understanding, doesn’t attend meetings regarding the system, and who doesn’t provide answers to preference questions for implementation. So I am basically the only one in the company who knows how to use this thing. My new role as a systems administrator is in addition to all of the other, not even close to resembling IT tasks that I handle.

    My question is, how do I handle departure? If I give two weeks notice I know that there is no way that this project can be transferred easily. Hell, even two months would not be enough. I’ve been with this company for over six years (first “real” job after education) and this is my first time giving notice and departing and I would love some advice on “how to leave a job.”

    1. CAA*

      You are not obligated to stay until the project can be handed over. There will never be a perfect time to leave, so when you’re ready to go, you just give two weeks notice. Have an in person talk with your boss where you say “I’ve been offered a new position and have decided I’d like to take it, so I’ll be leaving this job in two weeks. My last day will be x.” Then you stop talking and wait for your boss to react. Resist the temptation to explain and justify your decision. If your company needs something in writing, just put that same quote in an email and send it to her, but have the in-person talk first.

      Your boss may have questions immediately, or she may need time to think about what to do next. She may feel panicky or hurt or angry, and she may express some of that. Her emotions are not your responsibility, so just stay calm and let her emote a little (you don’t have to sit through a tirade, get up and leave if it gets to be too much). If she raises concerns about the project, you can use a response like “I know this is a difficult time, but I’m prepared to do everything I can to make the transition as smooth as possible. Please let me know who to work with when you’ve had a chance to think about it.” It’s true that you can’t transition everything in two weeks, but you’ll do as much as you can and they’ll have to figure it out from there, even if some of it is reinventing the wheel.

      You might also think in advance about whether you would want to do after-hours and weekend consulting for them to continue the implementation and training. They might ask you, and it’s perfectly o.k. to say “Thank you for the offer, but I’m going to be too busy in my new role to take that on.”

      1. Amy Sly*

        And for my own piece of mind, I’d make sure that I had documented as much as I could about the project. You can’t let them guilt you into staying until it’s done, but I know I would feel guilty if I didn’t leave the poor person who had to take over from me in the best position possible. Of course, that’s just generally a good habit. As the programmers I know like to say, “Always comment your code. The poor bastard who has to figure out what you were doing six months ago might just be you.”

  64. Decima Dewey*

    Last week we had a cluster meeting with a 45 minute presentation on Wage Theft and when it’s illegal for employers to deny use of sick leave. Actionable information amounted to “if a patron comes to you with a Wage Theft or Sick Leave question, here’s how to contact the Office of Labor.” Oh, and since we’re all under a collective bargaining agreement, none of what the presenter talked about for 45 minutes applies to us.

    Our rodent problem continues. I dutifully ask the company that has the extermination contract to come out, and usually by the day after the technician leaves, we’ve had another mouse sighting. Our mouse-phobic head of Circulation is now working at another branch until the mouse issue can be resolved.

    Starting Monday, our Digital Resource Specialist is going to be on a month long leave of absence. She’s to be removed from our schedules, and when the leave of absence is over, she’ll be going elsewhere. Digital Resource Specialist is supposed to help patrons and staff with technology. When I covered the desk, she’d left her Outlook account up. I didn’t touch anyone, but I could see that she had nearly 4400 deleted emails in her deleted emails folder. I kidded her, asking if she ever emptied the folder. Turns out, she thought she could only permanently delete emails one at a time.

    There was a meeting this week with Mr. Lastname, Grandboss, the guard, the Area Guard Supervisor, the guard’s union rep, and Mr. Lastname’s union rep. I was not party to the meeting. Doubtless I will hear more from Mr. Lastname sometime soon.

  65. Blarg*

    Tips on job applications through USA Jobs?

    I’ll be applying for GS12+. I’m technically well qualified but newly in DC so lots of competition and jobs that will go internal/other preferences.

    I understand it wants explicit explanations of how I meet minimum qualifications in the cover letter. Do people just take out anything else for sake of brevity? And some posts say they want hours worked per week on the resume — should I assume that’s good for all jobs.

    For continuously open positions, how does that work? Do they just have so many recurrent vacancies they keep a pool of possible applicants to reach into? Has anyone been hired off of one of these? It feels like being one of those lottery balls hoping to pop into the person’s hand on the televised draw.

    Vent about WHY I’m job hunting in another post.

    2. yay november*

      “Do people just take out anything else for sake of brevity?”
      Tip for USAJOBS: forget about brevity. Your resume should be as long as it needs to for it to contain everything it needs to have. Forget about resumes being 2 pages. If a USAJOBS resume is 6 pages, then it’s 6 pages.

      Also, unless it specifically asks for a cover letter, you don’t need one. Your minimal qualifications needs to be in the resume and backed up by information. Make sure you hammer everything you need to for the words to match. If you need to put in an accomplishment in 3 different ways to get the words? Then do that.

      Yes, hours worked (40 hours, don’t say “full time”).

      1. Not All*

        GS12? More like 10 plus pages.

        USAJobs “resumes” are not resumes as the term is used in private. They are your complete application packet. Every single thing they need to know about you to make a hiring decision needs to be in there. Treat it as if they are hiring based solely off your application & reference checks and there will be no interviews. (There will be interviews obviously but that’s the degree of information you need to provide and most people from private are terrible at it so never make it past HR.)

        1. Blarg*

          Ok, so “oh dear god no one cares about that” is wildly incorrect. I’ve got some work to do. Groan.

          Are there any different tips for direct hire solicitations?

          (I have a health care license but am not only applying to jobs that specifically require it, as my specialty area bridges a couple fields. The positions that do require the license tend to be direct hire).

    3. OtterB*

      Be really, really explicit about how your experience matches the required qualifications. Use their buzzwords and no others, even if someone in the field would know that they are equivalent. In this case, unlike most, it’s more important for your cover letter to be precise than to have personality.

      My husband has a GS12 job that he got a few years ago. He had applied for the same job at least once before and been rejected as not qualified. None of his experience in the interim made him a better candidate for the position; it was purely having his resume and cover letter be more explicit. (He’s an engineer; his experience directly related to the job was before the first application, and his experience since is tangentially but not directly related.)

    4. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      Are you uploading something or using the resume builder? I would use the resume builder, since it’s really clear what information they want (hours worked, GS if applicable, etc) and some agencies don’t accept uploaded resumes anyway. You do have to be super explicit, like in the notes section on my education I specifically pointed out that my math degree included at least 12 credit hours of math.

    5. Blarg*

      Another question:

      If a job post is open for like 3 days and is *highly* specific, they know who they want, right? I’ve seen some that open on a Saturday and close on Monday and it almost seems like one of the qualifications is “named Karen and already works here.”

      1. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

        Not necessarily. My first federal job was posted for 3 days and they hire 65 people. It might be different as you go up in grade though. My first job was a GS-7.

      2. Not All*

        99% of the time, yes. However there are also positions that get such insanely high numbers applicants that we do that just to limit the pool. (One of my previous positions they had over 400 applicants when I left because they made the mistake of using a pretty general announcement and leaving it open for 2 weeks.) I wouldn’t spend a ton of time customizing an application for an advertisement like that but it doesn’t hurt to apply…you never know. My current office just posted a very, very specific announcement that was designed for the person who had been a term in that role for 4 years…the day after it went live on USAJobs that person accepted another permanent position in a different state. So we’ll see what we get for applicants…may extend the announcement, may just hire off who submits in the short period.

      3. yay november*

        “If a job post is open for like 3 days and is *highly* specific, they know who they want, right? ”
        Not always. A lot of the time, it’s “this is a high grade, very sought-after position, and we have to review every single dang resume, so it’s only gonna be open for 3 days, or capped at 50 applicants, for the sake of our turn-around timeline.”

        It’s the eligibility to look at. If it’s only eligible to like 30 people who already work there? Then yeah, it’s for one person.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Use the exact words in the announcement. If it says you must be “experienced in llama grooming”, say I am “experienced in llama grooming” …through my six years of experience (or whatever is applicable). Sometimes the first sort is done by a computer, not a person, so if you don’t use the right search term you won’t make the cut. Address all qualifications, and fully explain everything.

      For continuously open positions, that means there are a lot of these jobs, and just as you fill one vanother person retires or takes a new job, so there are vacancies all the time.

    7. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      My recommendation is to make sure you have a good Federal Resume. Standard resume format is not going to you in. I would recommend looking into any seminars on federal resume writing in your area, or using the resume builder on USAjobs if you aren’t comfortable with fed resume writing. Brevity is not your friend when it comes to getting a federal job. I incorporate key words from the job listings into my descriptions of previous positions so that it shows that I have experience with the things that are most important to the particular job. Also, be patient. Federal hiring can take a long time.
      Good Luck.

    8. Kathenus*

      Lots of great responses already. Just to tag onto them all about being specific, using the terminology that’s in the posting in your resume/cover letter/etc. – don’t be afraid to repeat yourself. For example, if you said something in your cover letter, still repeat it in your resume. If you’re answering subject matter questions and you say something in question 1 and that same experience is also valid for question 2, repeat the experience you have again in question 2, do this ad nauseum. I’ve seen people classified as not meeting minimum qualifications when we absolutely knew that had a particular experience or ability, but since they didn’t specify it in their materials we had to act like they did not have it. Up until generating a cert list of ranked candidates, the application materials are the only thing that is considered.

      And the govt. hiring is just nutty sometimes. I was a GS12 for over six years. Left to the private sector. About four years later I applied for the exact same role at the exact same organization in a related department and was told that I didn’t meet the minimum qualifications – for a job that I held for over six years (and it wasn’t due to performance or non-rehire, it was simply because I had a non-traditional degree that one person looked at my degree and experience together to evaluate me the first time, and years later the second person arbitrarily looked at the degree and discounted me immediately.

      yay november is 100% correct – for USA jobs you want the opposite of brevity. List every single experience and qualification you have, in their language, and repeat it every possible place you can throughout the application and questions. Good luck.

    9. Tabby Baltimore*

      I know it’s the end of the weekend, and you may not see this, but for anyone else out there who sees this posting after-the-fact, there is a book that The Resume Place website blog owner has written called the Federal Resume Guidebook. Most public libraries have a copy (BTW the 7th edition will be released on Nov 15th.), and whatever edition you local library has will probably be fine to use as a guide for your purposes. Use it to double-check what information you need to include in each of your job entries (the feds used to require you relay for each job the number of hours worked AND your previous salary, for example). As for a cover letter, I wouldn’t assume, I’d call the Point of Contact in the announcement to ask about that, especially if you want to know if that agency’s HR will read it and use it to determine whether to forward you in the process, but won’t include it in your package the Hiring Manager gets. Good luck! Please let us know how things go for you.

  66. Black-and-white*

    Fellow Readers,

    1 month ago I came back from vacation to my boss acting mad at me (stormed out of a meeting which was very abnormal) and then giving a verbal warning for something they misunderstood me saying before I left on my vacation. Before this vacation we got along extremely well for 8 months (the entire time they’ve been here)

    After I clarified with them, they sent an email to HR, their supervisor, and me stating that we were on the same page. However since then they’ve treated me coldly. I’ve asked if there was anything I needed to be doing differently, and was told no I’m doing great. Clarified if I was doing as they expected with my role, and they didn’t say to change anything but asked if I could come up with something further to do within the team. When I asked for clarification or suggestions received non-answers.

    Since then they’ve continued to treat me coldly and yet be warm to the rest of the team and I suspect they are mad I embarrassed them for being wrong and having to correct what they stormed around for a week telling HR and their supervisor. Is there protection that they can’t retaliate against me like this?
    It wasn’t my fault they misunderstood and spent a week stewing. It’s akin to a teacher or parent playing favorites.

    Yes I understand a boss being this emotional is not good but it’s the first time it’s affected work.

    1. Reply*

      You said that this affecting your work, but is it? It sounds like your boss fixed the miscommunication with HR and higher ups so that everyone knows you were not at fault, and when you asked if your performance needed to be better they said no; you are doing great. It sounds like the only thing being affected is the temperature of the relationship with your boss. In that case, I would continue focusing on being a model employee and meeting any and all expectations set by your boss. It sounds like your boss is embarrassed and is responding by being cold to you instead of getting over their bruised ego. Give it some time and I bet they return to the previous dynamic. If nothing changes after a week or two, perhaps meet with your boss and say something along the lines of “I have gotten the impression lately that you aren’t pleased with me. Is there something I need to fix with my work or have I read things wrong?”. This may encourage them to explain their behavior a bit.

      1. valentine*

        She stewed for a month or your return was a great excuse to scorch the earth? The best-case scenario is the coldness is her attempt at professionalism.

    2. Lurker*

      I’ve had a boss like this and it’s so stressful – most of the time she was fine – but from time to time she would get really angry about things that were either misunderstandings or not things… Over time the stress of waiting for the other shoe to drop really got to me. Frankly, in my experience, they’ll get mad at someone else soon enough and you’ll be back in their good graces.

  67. WKRP*

    Been a great week. Sometimes our job is unpredictable and we need people on-site. But, I had to tell my 30-year-old associate that “working from home” is not something you use whenever its convenient for you. (She worked from home two weeks ago, and also called in late and sick twice before in the past month, I’m going to have to gear up for a conversation). She’s been sulking for 2 days. I am choosing to ignore it and pretend that she can be an emotionally mature adult capable of doing her job and behave in a professional manner.

    1. Anona*

      It sounds like you just need to clarify the work from home policy. Because in some offices, it would be fine to work from home when it’s convenient. To me, what it sounds like she’s done (work from home one day, take 2 sick days, and come in late 1 day) seems fine. You can’t control when you’re sick, so those are kind of moot. The others– one work from home day, 1 late day seem pretty normal, but it depends on whatever policy you have.

      1. Sleepy*

        Yeah, in my office, as long as “work from home” really means doing work, it would be totally fine. She probably just needs to understand what you want from her.

      2. WKRP*

        We don’t have a formal policy. We’re generally a flexible department, but again some of our work does require people to be in the office, so it’s not something that someone should rely on as an alternative. (She’s also not great at working from home and can be MIA for a couple of hours) I did clarify, that’s why she’s sulking.

        I’m also pretty easy going when folks are late or sick. But, being late or sick every Monday for a month is concerning to me. Coupled with asking to work from home on a Friday, well… I’m sensing a pattern that I’m not a fan of.

        2. Antilles*

          Reading your posts, I’m not remotely sure what you mean by flexibility. The idea that you’re ‘generally flexible’ would imply that working from home on a Friday doesn’t matter; it would also imply that lateness every now and then isn’t relevant as long as stuff’s getting done correctly. But your irritation about the lateness and even asking for WFH makes it seem like there actually isn’t flexibility.
          We’re generally a flexible department, but again some of our work does require people to be in the office, so it’s not something that someone should rely on as an alternative.
          This could mean literally anything. One end of the spectrum is “sometime you’ll need to be here for meetings or other in-person stuff, but otherwise, WFH as much as you’d like”. Other places say they’re flexible, but really only mean it in the sense of major emergencies like the furnace died in February and you really need to work from home while waiting on the HVAC guy; otherwise you better be here every single day.
          It’s possible that this particular employee can’t be trusted to WFH effectively, so she doesn’t get that privilege, but in general, it seems like your policy isn’t clear either enough.

          1. WKRP*

            She’s worked here for 3 years, so she’s aware of how the department works and how often people work from home and what it’s used for. Lately, it feels she’s been pushing the boundaries and I’m seeing a pattern of absence or lateness on Mondays and Fridays, which is not cool because she can’t be relied upon to be in the office if something comes up.

            Thanks!

    2. londonedit*

      Yeah, her sulking isn’t great, but where I work that would be a completely acceptable use of working from home. We have to be in the office on certain days for meetings, but apart from that, as long as our team knows where we are, we can work from home whenever it’s convenient for us and our workloads. People often work from home if they’re feeling a bit ill but not ill enough to take a sick day – it’s better than doing a London commute while feeling rubbish and coming into the office to potentially infect other people. So if your working from home policy/expectations are different from that, you definitely need to spell that out to her and clarify how you do expect her to manage working from home.

    3. Parenthetically*

      “working from home” is not something you use whenever its convenient for you.

      Serious question: then what IS it for? And have you communicated that in detail to your associate?

      It sounds like you have two issues: an unclear WFH protocol (that people are getting dinged for despite not being clear on the parameters, which doesn’t seem particularly fair), and an employee whose work output and time management aren’t what you’d expect. Might be helpful to deal with those separately.

      1. Joielle*

        I thought the same thing. To me, working from home IS something you do when it’s convenient… like that’s literally the definition of when to use it. When it would be more convenient to work from home, like you have a mid-day appointment far from the office or have to let the plumber in or something that would make coming in to work inconvenient.

        WKRP, in your office, is WFH just for when you’re too sick to come in but not too sick to work from the couch? I almost wonder if there’s something going on with her at home… recent breakup, chronic illness flareup, depression, elderly parent’s health declining, something like that. The sudden change seems unusual if you haven’t had problems with her before. All this is to say, maybe try to give her the benefit of the doubt for now.

        1. WKRP*

          Yep, in our office WFH is used for illness or similar unscheduled event. It’s not a regular occurrence. It’s not frowned upon, but it’s also not common. She’s worked with us for a few years now and knows this. I’m not sure if it’s sudden, it feels like it’s been gradually building over the past 6 months.

          2. Alianora*

            I’d go easy on her. You describe your office as flexible and say it’s not frowned upon to work from home. So if that’s what’s been conveyed to her, I don’t see why you would assume she should know that you actually don’t want her to do it. If you sounded as irritated when you reprimanded her as you do in this post, I’m not surprised she might be withdrawn for a couple of days (although outright sulking obviously is unprofessional.)

            Also, I don’t think what you described is necessarily indicative of a pattern. Unless you think she’s lying, people can’t control when they’re sick, she thought WFH was okay, and being late one time isn’t egregious.

      2. Clisby*

        Yes, what does the WFH policy say? Working from home because it’s convenient seems to me to be the main purpose of WFH – if it weren’t convenient, why would anyone do it?

    4. Kathenus*

      Sounds like a more clear WFH policy would be beneficial. I work in an industry where safety is a big concern, and we frequently say “it’s OK until it’s not”. In our case it usually means that we may have done something many times but once we identify a safety risk to it (whether through an incident we have, one someone in our field has, or just seeing it through new eyes) we need to take it seriously and review/revise how we do things.

      Sounds like your WFH policy is at that point. It’s been OK to be less formal, but now either she truly doesn’t understand it the way you do or may be pushing boundaries. Regardless, the resolution is to make the policy clear for her as well as other current/future employees. Take out the grey area and you’ll find out if you have a performance issue or miscommunication.

      1. WKRP*

        To be honest, if a clearer, formal policy is needed they will do away with WFH. So people will either need to use it cautiously or lose it entirely.

  68. PersonBehindTheCurtain*

    Wondering on opinions. I work for an organization that has a call center. I work tangentially with the call center, but do not take calls (and have never done so). Due to a slow down in my standard work load; but also due to a unique set of skills; the management team tasked me with doing the QA on the call center calls. Here’s the rub: Nobody but the management team knows I am doing this; and in fact the management team will actively talk about how they perform the QAs. The fact that management claims the work does not bother me in the least and I believe that for the most part we are doing it this way so that people aren’t complaining about how an untrained person (I am not, they just don’t know it) has the credentials to judge them on their work.

    I’ve been in toxic jobs before and reading this site has helped me re-orient my thoughts and patterns; and I guess I just want to see what people think – is this a bad thing that the staff don’t know I’m the one doing the QAing or is this more standard than I know it is.

    1. Colette*

      In my (limited) experience with call centers, the person reviewing the call also met with the person they were evaluating to provide feedback, so I find it a little odd, but I don’t see it as a huge problem. (In my case, other people also reviewed calls and provided feedback on an ad hoc basis.)

  69. How do I say 'good job' to my boss?*

    Our organization recently dealt with a serious crisis, with the burden for a significant component of addressing it falling to my team, which is just me and my boss.

    We rose to the occasion and excelled to a degree that I couldn’t have imagined. We did exactly what we needed to and executed extremely well, to the point where much larger peer organizations are now reaching out to ask for advice. This all feels particularly meaningful because we received a ton of (IMO, unfair) very public criticism about our work in a similar, but smaller crisis not long ago.

    I am so proud of us and my boss has been profuse with praise and gratitude for my work. I want to do the same but I don’t know how. It feels weird and patronizing to say “Good job” to my boss.

    We have had a strained relationship at times (formerly friends before I worked for him, things went badly awry, I made a harassment complaint, he tried to fire me, etc.), and although things seem OK now it just adds an additional weird component to any conversation that involves feelings or our relationship.

    Would love some advice on how to convey the message of ‘thank you, you were amazing, I am deeply grateful that I was working with you in this situation’ without it coming off as weird, patronizing, or just generally out of line.

    1. Jabs*

      I think “I am deeply grateful that I was working with you in this situation” isnt bad (I would probably not say “you were amazing”). I’m not sure Im qualified to give advice but my general rule when giving positive feedback to my manager is to give specific examples. Like “I really appreciate that you spoke to the Big Boss about my proposal, thank you” or “Thank you for getting back to me with that feedback so quickly even though it was such short turnaround, it really helped me keep on track for this project”. I think if you can say what it is that you appreciate, and frame it in terms of how it helped you do your own job well, you’re keeping it in the context of work in a way that might help sidestep some of the weirdness with your history. That way you’re also not saying anything about him as a person so much as how these specific actions impacted you.

    2. NGA*

      It does feel kind of weird but it is appreciated! Something like, “I wanted to let you know that I was really impressed with how you handled X. I really admire that you did a, b, c in this situation.” is totally appreciated. Adding in something that you learned would be even better for me.

    4. The Other Dawn*

      I don’t have the exact words to give you, but I think as long as you are sincere and not gushing, it should be fine. I think he will appreciate hearing it; bosses are typically thanked and appreciated by their own bosses, but not usually their direct reports.

      I once did something similar with the CEO of a bank I worked for from the very beginning, until it was eventually shut down (one-branch bank, very tiny so everyone was close). It had a been a really rough year and it was clear that things were not going to improve. He’d been out on the road for months trying to drum up capital, as well as doing many other things throughout the year in an effort to save the company, and it was clearly taking its toll on him. I wrote him an email that thanked him for all he was doing to try and save the company, that it was appreciated, and it hadn’t gone unnoticed. One would have thought I’d hung the moon. He came over the next day and thanked me personally and said it was so nice to hear that someone, anyone, noticed that he was doing as much as he could to salvage and nearly salvageable situation. I imagine being a CEO is a pretty thankless job a lot of the time, especially if the company isn’t making money and the Board is unhappy.

      That’s a long-winded way to say: just tell him, and be sincere.

  70. merp*

    Ughhhh we’re starting to plan our holiday party and our lead supervisor has suggested maybe we can just keep the reading room open for it this year. Which would mean that me and the other desk staff would need to duck in and out of the party every 20 minutes to cover the desk/help patrons, while the rest of our coworkers who don’t work the desk could hang out the whole time. And of course the lead supervisor won’t be helping us cover….

    2. Antilles*

      Can you push back on this? This seems low-stakes enough that I think you might be able to politely point out that in past years, it’s been closed and it would be logistically awkward to have to keep running out every few minutes. Might not get you anywhere, but it’s probably worth a shot, unless your lead is known to be unreasonable or difficult.
      If not, could you at least find a way to reduce the workload? I don’t know your industry, but in other circumstances where there’s a job that requires coverage during the party, it’s done with a skeleton crew. So like normally we have a receptionist, an administrative assistant, plus a mail room/copy room guy…but for the two hours of the holiday party, one person covers all three roles (partly by ignoring all low-priority tasks) then they swap off so each of them gets 40 minutes of work and 1:20 of party.

      1. merp*

        I’m going to try! I’ve only been here a few months so I’ll be doing so pretty gently, but here’s hoping.

        1. Blueberry Girl*

          Yes, I would tread lightly, as you probably don’t have much capital, but if this is how it has been done in the past, you may have a stronger case.

    3. CallofDewey*

      I’m assuming this is a library- I’m in the same boat! My library assistants have to miss out so that the librarians and management, like myself, can enjoy the whole party. It honestly makes me feel super guilty and I’m pushing to get our director to close the library or at least have everyone take shifts.

      1. merp*

        Good on you! Yeah, even if it makes the party shorter a bit shorter in my case, I’m going to try to advocate to close.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Okay, just want to make sure I understand what you’re saying. No one else will be working during that time, so they can enjoy the party, but our staff will still be working. Is that correct?”

      I mean, you’d probably want to be more subtle than that.

  71. CrookedLily*

    Would anyone else be uncomfortable with their employer’s EAP being provided by a Christian faith-based counseling center? My employer is not religion-based at all, but the culture here is such that it is perfectly acceptable that people post Bible verses around their desks, and say prayers before potluck meals and other “team fun” activities, and just generally assume everyone is Christian and what else would they be? I am probably best described as agnostic, and am deeply uncomfortable with having religion of any kind pushed on me, or being told that I would be happier, healthier, or all of my problems would be solved if I just had faith.

    I am having the worst time with my depression and anxiety right now, and just general bad mood, and for the first time in decades, am seriously considering whether I might need to talk to someone. Obviously the EAP is the most affordable option, because, well, it’s free, unlike going through my insurance which would have a copay per visit. But I don’t want this attempt to do something to salvage my currently shaky mental health to turn into some kind of preach-fest, which is honestly only going to damage my mental health even more. Plus, one of the major factors fueling my current decline is my recovery from a toxic and abusive Dom/sub relationship that ended earlier this year, and I need to make sure I’m going to be talking to someone who is going to be supportive and not judgmental. To be very clear, it was the person, not the lifestyle choice, that did the damage.

    There is one other thing I’m worried about. The other major factor in my current mental state is my job itself. Ive been feeling so incredibly under-appreciated and disrespected lately, both by actions directed at my team as a whole, and by some directed at me individually, that when combined with how bad I’m already feeling, just drives my internal hostility pressure cooker to critical levels. They say counseling through the EAP is confidential, but can I trust that? Has anyone ever had what they said to an EAP counselor get back to their employer?

    So… EAP or no EAP? And is it worth pushing back to HR about using a faith-based center for the EAP?

    1. Colette*

      Is the Christian faith-based counselling the plan administrator, or the provider of the counselling. If it’s the administrator, can you ask to meet with someone at another organization?

      An official EAP is confidential, so I wouldn’t worry about that – but if you only have the choice of the one organization, I’d say you should go outside of the EAP for two reasons. First of all, it sounds like this isn’t likely to be a good match for you, and it may do more harm than good. But also, if you don’t like the job, you may want to build a therapeutic relationship with someone you can continue seeing in a new job.

      And yes, I’d be uncomfortable with faith-based counselling through an EAP.

    2. Bertha*

      A counselor, assuming they are licensed, shouldn’t be revealing anything to your employer. I can understand being hesitant that it’s all through a faith-based organization.

      I have actually been considering using the EAP for my organization, and I mostly decided against it, for the following reasons…

      1. While our EAP is 6 sessions, which is pretty generous (my last company offered 3), it’s still limiting and I’d still have to pay beyond those sessions, or potentially find another counselor.

      2. The EAP greatly limits who you can see, because there are many more counselors on my insurance vs. available with the EAP. I actually had a lot of trouble finding someone when I used an EAP at my last company because I used referrals, only to find that most of the people on the EAP weren’t actually accepting new patients.

      In your case, the fact that it’s limited to a single center, regardless of the fact that it’s faith-based, would make me hesitant. What kind of availability are they going to have? Could you run in to your coworkers in the waiting room? I just think you’ll have a lot easier time finding a therapist that you click with if you go outside the EAP, assuming you have a reasonable copay.

    3. Mazzy*

      I don’t want to comment on the main question since it will be controversial, but the Bible verses in the office seem off to me, as a Catholic. My issue is, we preach and try to practice acceptance and tolerance of all people. Not to say others don’t, that’s not my point, my point is the content of some quotes – you can begin having too much patience and tolerance for things you shouldn’t have – someone coming in late all of the time, someone not trying to do the job properly, someone abusing the system.

      Some Bible quotes will have you thinking that struggle is just part of life and you need to accept everyone exactly as they are. Which means, not pointing out errors, not coaching people to improve, not taking a hard stand against someone in the wrong, and that is not going to help any employees in their career.

      1. CrookedLily*

        I haven’t seen these types of quotes, mostly. But one I have seen which I found very offensive was one which attacked women who don’t limit themselves to one partner. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) I don’t remember the wording.

    4. yay november*

      “Would anyone else be uncomfortable with their employer’s EAP being provided by a Christian faith-based counseling center? ”

      Very, very uncomfortable.

    5. bunniferous*

      A lot is going to depend on the actual counselor at the EAP. Many who work at these are remarkably nonjudgemental. If they are licensed counselors they absolutely have to abide by nondisclosure also, is my understanding.

      What if you tried them and then if it did not work out/you felt uncomfortable, then you could opt out (and at that point if you felt the counseling violated your lack of belief that would be a good time to complain?)

    6. TooTiredToThink*

      Its gonna depend. I am a Christian and it would depend on the org even for me – do they think mental illness means you aren’t right with God or do they realize that there are multiple reasons for why someone might have mental illness, including depression? Even I would be asking that question before I would make an appointment.

      If they are LPC or higher (psychiatrists, psychologists) then they will have graduated with a degree. You should be able to suss out where they graduated – and then take a look at that school to know how they were trained. I started to work on my LPC at one point and my Christian university was adamant, for one blatant example, about the ethical treatment of potential LGBTQ clients – while all of the students were Christians -and would therefore have varying religious based beliefs – the LPC training was very similar to a non-religious institution, in that regard. Also, that does mean that if they are licensed that if they go bad ethically, then you would have resources for reporting them.

      If the counseling center is nouthetic training based, it would not serve you at all.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yes, also Christian and I’d basically agree with this.

        My city has a couple Christian-based practices that include everyone from faith-mentor-type people to psychiatrists. They’re all very inclusive and licensed and don’t require anyone who gets counseling/therapy/treatment/meds from them to agree with their religious beliefs — afaik it’s just a way to lower the bar for religious people to get help for their mental health needs since so many religious communities stigmatize mental health treatment.

      2. Anon Vet*

        I’d concur with this. My pastor has a doctorate in psychology from a prestigious university. He’s not a “pray the pain away” guy. He offers very solid counseling in a very practical way. He did recognize that there’s a mind, body, spirit (how ever you want to identify that) balance in treating my depression. I had begun with a secular psychologist who didn’t recognize that depression can have physical manifestations.

        So, like all things, it depends upon the counselor.

    7. Joielle*

      I DEFINITELY think it’s problematic to use a faith-based center for the EAP, but even if the EAP was through a secular organization, I might still consider seeking out someone who’s familiar with dom/sub dynamics. No matter how good a therapist is, if that’s not already part of their wheelhouse, I worry that you’re going to deal with some crappy assumptions and judgments.

      For myself (a queer married person sometimes dabbling in ethical nonmonogamy), I specifically sought out a therapist who was well-versed and enthusiastic about LGBT+ clients and nontraditional family structures. It was SUCH a relief to not have to explain or justify that aspect, or worry about being judged… when, like you said, the actual problem is something completely different.

    8. Kathenus*

      This would make me very uncomfortable and I’m guessing it would do the same for a great many people, especially those who are active in a different faith.

    9. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      That’s a big pile of yuck for me. I would not even try the EAP and once I built up capital, I would explain why to HR.

    10. Earthwalker*

      I accidentally ended up with a faith-based counselor from a non-faith based EAP. He asked if I was Christian. (I am.) So he preached to me from the perspective of his own church which focuses heavily on the idea that women should be subservient to men. (My church does not.) He did all the talking, about his life, his successes, his family, and his faith. I could hardly get a word in edgewise. It was condescending, demoralizing, and oddly creepy. That was my experience of faith based EAP between two Christians. Surely there are truly skilled and compassionate Christian counselors in the world, and EAPs that match people to more appropriate counselors, but after meeting that guy, I would be tempted to say no-EAP.

    11. The Other Dawn*

      I don’t have advice other than to say I’d be uncomfortable using a Christian-based EAP. I also identify as agnostic and I’d worry they’re going to try and push religion on me, or that the advice would skew towards, “You need to have more faith! Believe in Him and things will improve!” I know not all Christians are like that, of course, but it would definitely be on my mind.

  72. Kali*

    The other day, I read an online post which mentioned a workplace policy where people could “gift” leave to their coworkers. Is that really a thing? How does it work, do you literally just give someone a day’s pay with nothing back, or is there some kind of exchange? It sounded like it would be a difficult system to work with if you wanted to be fair – what’s the intention behind it?

    For context, I’m British and the post was American so there are probably some cultural differences.

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      It’s definitely a thing! I’ve only ever seen it with sick leave banks, but I assume it might work for other types of leave.

      Where I work, it’s sort of like a co-op. You have to “buy in” by donating a certain number of sick days, and then only people who have opted in can use the sick leave bank. There is a cap on the number of sick days you can take from the bank. We have pretty good sick leave policies, but it does take a little while to accrue it.

    2. Ella*

      It happens at my US university. If people need extra leave for something (often because they’re very ill or are caring for an ill family member or dealing with a bereavement or something), they’ll submit a request that’s then published to the staff. If anyone has any leftover leave, they’re allowed to contribute it (completely optional). Sometimes the requests name the person, sometimes they’re anonymous. At our university we’re only allowed to roll over a certain amount of unused leave each year, so for some people they may have leave they’re really not planning on using.
      I believe there are some other stipulations, like the person must have already used all their available leave.

    3. merp*

      Where I am, our director has given us 2 extra days to use around the holidays (anytime between November and January, I think) as a nice thing after a good year. So yes, it is a thing!

      1. merp*

        Oh lol I misread, but yes, we can also donate leave to coworkers (usually sick leave) if they are going through something and will be out for a while.

    4. fposte*

      My employer has that. The way it’s done here is that you can donate to a sick leave pool, which employees in need can then draw on; your donating enables you to draw on the pool yourself in future. It’s not 1-for-1 on the days, it’s just that donating a day is what gives you access to the leave pool. We cannot earmark our donations for a specific employee.

      I don’t know exactly how the back end works, but sick days have quantifiable economic value in our system, so donating means the encumbrance for that day is transferred. Maybe think of sick days as IOUs from an employer; I can say “I’m not going to need that IOU so I can tell my employer to cash out the money to somebody who needs it.”

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Every place I’ve worked where it was a thing, donations of sick time had to meet certain criteria –
      a. they had to be made to a specific person, not just generally donated;
      b. the person receiving the donation had to be out of their own sick time and
      c. also on approved FMLA;
      d. the donor had to still have a certain number of hours left in their own time bank after the donation.

      Basically, if I have 10 days of sick time that I don’t anticipate using because I work from home and have called in sick once in five years, and Jane is on FMLA for whatever reason but has burned through her PTO, I can give her five days of my sick time if I choose to. So yes, if Jane is mean and cranky to people, folks are less likely to give her their extra sick time than they would be to Belinda Bunnyfeathers who is the epitome of sweetness and light, which is perhaps not *equitable*, but I can’t personally find *unfair*. (Personally, I’m not giving away my forty hours of pay to either of them no matter how nice they are, because I’m not working to pay for my coworkers’ time off, but that’s just me.)

    6. OtterB*

      It happens at my husband’s government job, and I know of teachers within school systems who have had this.

      I think of it as being a thing in organizations that are large and bureaucratic. Bureaucratic is not meant as a put-down, it’s meant to describe an organization that is process-driven in order to be fair to the taxpayers who are funding it (unlike a private organization that could make its own determinations) and also to the employees so that it’s not a case where some favorites get more leeway.

      My husband has donated sick leave to coworkers in his division who needed additional time for cancer treatment, etc., even if he didn’t know them personally.

    7. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      I’m a fed and we have several options!
      1) There’s a leave bank, which you can donate one pay period’s worth of leave to and then be eligible to receive leave from, but only for sick-leave-qualifying events (including caring for a family member — the requirements are basically the same as FMLA) and only if you’ve exhausted your sick and annual leave (but you’re not required to advance any leave first).
      2) There’s a voluntary leave transfer program, where you can basically just beg other people to give leave to you personally (I presume you mostly get it from senior people don’t use all their leave and have hit the rollover cap), which has the same requirements.
      3) There is sometimes an emergency leave transfer program, which works mostly the same as the VLTP and is specially set up for particular events, like Hurricane Harvey — for this you can use donated leave for things like fixing your house.

    8. yay november*

      We have it here (US). They send around emails that someone needs sick leave, but you have to donate your vacation (not your sick). They do send out the names of the people who need it, which I find uncomfortable. I’d rather it be private.

    9. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I think part of the US/UK issue will be that in the UK you can’t not take a minimum leave as an employee (equivalent to 5.6 weeks including public holidays), also that statutory sick leave is a thing and most companies have reasonably generous sick pay policies in excess of that*. Which is to say that it’s far less common for a person to need donations in the first place, and that there would be far less legal flexibility in donating. I think it likely only be legal to donate your PTO in excess of those 5.6 weeks – say if you have 6 weeks’ entitlement, you would only have two days to play with.

      I’ve known companies permit employees to buy and sell leave – my spouse always sold his five extra days because he was already overworked and the money was more useful than the time. But I’ve never known “donations”.

      * A co-worker had something like eighteen months on 75% pay during cancer. Statutory minimum is up to 28 weeks on about $125 a week.

        1. Natalie*

          For paid, three weeks or less seems to be a typical starting amount (which encompasses sick and vacation). Aside from some cities that have passed mandatory sick time, there is no statutory requirement for paid leave of any kind.

          Assuming your employer is large enough and you have been there for a year, you can take 12 weeks of job protected leave (FMLA) for certain health situations, but it’s not paid.

          1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            Yes, the crucial part is that there is in the whole no mandatory minimum – so somebody could legally take no leave at all. That would have a UK HR department screaming.

    10. Admin of Sys*

      Absolutely a thing, though every place I’ve been it’s only for sick leave, not for vacation time. And in those places, the sick time doesn’t have a carry-over limit, so if you’ve worked at the company for a while, you may have a few months of extra sick time stored up.
      At the current job, someone requests a leave donation from HR and they set up the form, and then other folks can donate to that person (and HR does the transfer). It’s usually for situations where someone is out for a long time on medical leave and doesn’t want to / can’t go without pay. FMLA protects your job, but you don’t get paid while on it, it just lets you take the time.

    11. Pam*

      I’m using it now- a US university. I used up my medical and vacation leave, and applied for disability. The donations make up the difference between the disability pay and my standard pay rate.

    12. Parenthetically*

      My mother’s school district did this. The way it worked there was that if a person was running out of leave, they could send out a district-wide request for donations. Your unused leave rolled over from year to year, but, crucially, you didn’t get a payout on it when you retired. There were LOADS of teachers who’d been with the district for 20+ years and had HUNDREDS of days banked. So Mrs. Biersma goes into labor early and has a preemie in the hospital for 12 weeks; her mat leave runs out at 8 weeks but she can’t go back to work until at least 16 weeks, so she needs another 8 weeks of leave donated. Mr. Hiigel has 134 days banked and donates 20 to her, Ms. Lindahl donates 10 of hers, Mrs. De Jong donates 5, and Mrs. Johansson donates 5. Mrs. Biersma’s leave is now covered.

    13. LQ*

      I work in government and we have fairly generous leave already but we also have this.

      We have a donation of vacation leave for someone else to use as sick leave. You’re only eligible for this after you’ve exhausted all your sick time. You don’t have to have previously donated. You don’t get anything reciprocal, there’s no notice or who did it, no need to buy into the system, so it’s really anonymous to people outside the people who process it. You can donate up to 40 hours of vacation per year. All to the same person or different folks. There is a notification that goes out when someone in our agency is eligible, but I can donate to people in other agencies as well.

      (I have donated 40 hours every year except my first. I really rarely talk about it, so maybe no one else does either, but I only know one other person who donates full amount every year. Most folks use their leave, but the other person and I don’t usually use all our leave so it’s this or lose it.)

    15. sequined histories*

      I work as a teacher in a unionized public school district is the United States. We get a good bit of leave and it accumulates endlessly, but it’s difficult, for a variety of reasons, to use the amount you get unless you’re taking FMLA.
      Ultimately, they can lower your evaluation numbers for poor attendance. If you have the flu and are out for 5 days, your boss has to give you this creepy letter saying that more than 10 days of “occasional absences” are “unacceptable” according to the state legislature, so straighten up slacker! It doesn’t matter at all how legitimately sick you are; if you’re not out on FMLA, you’ll get the letter. (As a teacher, you are exposed to a lot of respiratory infections; it just comes with the job.) In truth, most teachers are intrinsically motivated to avoid taking days off—even when they’re sick—because of the effect on student learning. Furthermore, standardized test scores affect evaluations for some of the teachers, working conditions for everyone in the building, and even whether or not the school itself survives.
      The result of all this is that those of us working here long term tend to accumulate a lot of leave. Whether or not we can donate and the exact rules for doing so depends on the union’s contract with the district. Currently we have a Sick Bank and can donate up to 20 days a year to a colleague who is seriously ill and has run out of leave. People generally donate to people they know and have worked with or who are at least at the same job site. In my building, the union rep brings the need to our attention. There is no pressure to donate, but veterans are usually willing to do so. A committee or official of some kind has to approve the donation, but it’s usually approved.
      For such a rich country, we have a poor social safety net, so it’s nice to feel I have a ready means of at least helping out my immediate colleagues when something really bad is happening to them. I wish my country as a whole were more generous in its support of people who are sick.

  73. Yorkshire Rose*

    I am getting the distinct feeling that my company won’t consider me for other step-up positions because I’m too good in my current job.

    I get paid well but… I want to do more. I keep making suggestions and getting projects that will “help me build my leadership skills,” but still get passed up for promotions.

    I am always meeting or exceeding expectations in my reviews. I’ve been in the same company for 10 years.

    Any and all advice welcome.

    2. yay november*

      Sounds like if you want to do those things and gain those skills, yeah, you’re gonna have to leave. Do you have the kind of relationship with your boss where you can lay it out like that? If not, yeah, I’d look elsewhere, because you’re not gonna get it there.

      1. Long-time AMA Lurker*

        Seconding the above – after 10 years, I would really start looking. In the meantime, OP, do you have a sponsor within the organization? Someone well-respected who can vouch for you and push for new roles? Doesn’t need to be your boss. This is ultimately how I got internally promoted.

        1. Yorkshire Rose*

          I do, but while they are a manager, there are even more managers above that know me, know I do good work, tell me I do good work and that I’m well respected, but the buck stops there.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Your situation is common. Companies hire people for work to be done, not for careers.

      The bottom line is that a business needs a body to perform certain tasks. If you get promoted, they’ll still need a body to perform those tasks. Also, there isn’t always room at the top; so even if they wanted to promote you, there may not be a slot until Bob retires in 5 years.

      I’ve been in your shoes; I was excelling in my role, which meant that I was also extremely cost effective in that role. There was no way I was going to get moved laterally or promoted, because that would provide less value to the company. I left eventually.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Set up (and succeed at, which won’t be too difficult by the sounds of it) external interviews for the step-up positions. Present them to your boss. Leave for the better opportunity or take your company’s counter-offer, as the case may be (depending on a lot of factors).

  74. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I had an internal meeting this week that left me so demoralized I wanted to call out for the rest of the afternoon. Luckily I work remotely so I was free to pace around and generally be angry, but I am so done. The lack of support, the pushback against collaboration, the condescending tones and the freaking sexism in my office… I’ve had enough. I’ve been casually job-searching and I hired a career coach, but until I can find something else, I feel so stuck. One of the things I’m working on with my coach is getting a real handle on my next move. I don’t want to jump to the next thing that comes along just because it’s different.

    So in the meantime… how do I manage? I’ve dealt with being bored, I’ve dealt with annoying co-workers, I’ve dealt with lack of promotions, but at this point I have such bad feelings I know I need to get a handle on this so it doesn’t bleed into my work interactions.

    Please share your coping tips with me!

  75. Jabs*

    Im having trouble streamlining communication with a junior coworker (not a report) who is very “literal” – she seems to have trouble with instructions that are delivered with any ambiguity. I’m more of a figure-it-out-as-you-go-along sort of person, and tend to ask for clarity along the way. Often I will give her what I think are direct and concise directions on a process, only to get a result that is technically “correct” but very obviously not to the purpose of the task. This has led to frustration on both sides, since sometimes she’ll ask if she should do X, and I’ll say go ahead, without realizing our understanding of X is very different. She seems to work best from very detailed, written instructions, and while I dont mind writing up documentation, the level of detail she seems to want is something I simply dont have time for (think screenshots of software menus). Our job requires a lot of on-the-fly problem solving, and I want to make sure she learns to think about WHY something is being done rather than just following instruction verbatim.

    For the record she is the second person I have worked with in her role, and I did not have this problem with the first person, so I dont think its more of a mismatch in learning and communication style than my own ability to communicate in general (although I am by no means a perfect communicator.) But any thoughts from someone who has been on either side of this sort of communication gap would be super appreciated. I don’t want her to be discouraged!

    1. Mazzy*

      I’ve been training someone like this. I find it helpful to ask and document example questions so it isn’t a routine task that can be automated. And I’m explicit about the fact that if we just wanted a routine done, we’d be looking at automating it and not having someone work on it for hours every month. So I always add in blurbs if text in emails or trainings that include:

      Things that have gone wrong with this task in the past
      Things that could go wrong
      Examples of overlap with other tasks where they might discover other errors or opportunities while doing this task

      And when they overlook something obvious I ask:

      Why do you think person asked for xyz?
      Your data shows that someone did abc. Why are you assuming that can’t be questioned. What data does that person not see and what experience do they have that might prevent them from seeing what we could see?
      Why do you think someone send you a seemingly random bit of info? If they sent it to you, do you really think it is random?

    2. Wishing You Well*

      While I hope she eventually fits in, she might not be right for her job. Some people need a high degree of regimentation at work. Since your jobs require “a lot of on-the-fly problem solving”, she might need to be moved to a more compatible job. If your junior coworker is new to the company or job, I’d give it a little more time, though.
      A coworker told me she wanted to do exactly the same thing every day. Her job was routine, so it was a good fit for her but there were many jobs she would’ve failed at in our company.
      I hope things improve for you and your coworker.

    3. Lady Heather*

      Are you also being very clear on the desired results? And perhaps the purpose of the task?

      For example:
      Instructions are: turn on the radio by pressing the red button.
      Intensed result is: the radio is turned on.
      The purpose of the radio is: so that we have something to listen to.

      I find this type of information helpful because it tells me what to do if the button doesn’t work (find another way to turn on the radio, check the power cord). If no sound comes out, I’ll know to turn up the volume (because the purpose of the radio is to give us something to listen to).
      But if someone were to tell me “press the button on the radio” I might not do more than that.

      I’m autistic, by the way. Like a lot of autistic people I tend to follow instructions somewhat literally – especially if I’m stressed/nervous or tired.
      I also sometines have difficulty auditory processing, especially when nervous or tired. That means written things can be helpful.

      If she is anything like me, decreasing anxiety can help – I have trouble deviating from instructions because I’m afraid of doing something “wrong” or “not allowed” and of “angry people”. (That’s a result of ptsd, fyi) It may help to sit down with her for a few hours and showing her all the kinds of things she CAN do and IS ALLOWED to do.
      Or just encouraging her to try. If I have permission to ‘try to solve x’ I’m not so afraid of doing the wrong thing and that makes me a lot more independent and initiative-taking.

      Being clear on the intended result and purpose behind tasks, and encouraging her to try and reach the result and fulfil the purpose, probably won’t take much time on your part.

      1. Lady Heather*

        I realize that my post might sound too critical because it starts with a ‘Are you doing x’. I intended for it to sound like an inquiry and then the rest of the post to sound constructive. Sorry about that.

    4. Product Person*

      Often I will give her what I think are direct and concise directions on a process, only to get a result that is technically “correct” but very obviously not to the purpose of the task. This has led to frustration on both sides, since sometimes she’ll ask if she should do X, and I’ll say go ahead, without realizing our understanding of X is very different. </i?

      Something to consider trying for a while to see if it helps train her on thinking of the bigger picture on her own, (I only see this working in the short term, not as a permanent solution, as it's definitely going to require more effort on your side–if you don't see progress, then what Wishing You Well said may be the right conclusion (she might not be right for her job):

      You: Send direct and concise directions on how to upload a list of donors to your CRM application.

      She: Writes back asking if she should upload a CSV file with donors information to the CRM.

      You: Instead of saying yes, try to guess what could be wrong, and then say something like, "Yes, but the idea is to have the name / address / phone number of those donors properly populated in their separate fields, so when you're uploading the CSV file, make sure that's what is happening. If during the upload preview you see name, address, and phone all bundled together in the same column, stop, and make sure you're selecting the right separator (comma, space, etc.) for the import to work correctly.'

  76. Lee*

    Right before I passed my 1-year mark at my current job, someone in a different department who I collaborate with frequently let me know that a spot in his dept. was opening up & that I should apply. My current boss actually encouraged me to apply, because he said it’s good to have “on the record” that I’m interested in advancement (this would be a manager position; I’m currently an analyst). At the time I told him (truthfully) that all things being equal I would probably want to stay in my current position, but now as I’m going thru the interview process I’m finding that I might actually be inclined to switch departments. Any tips for how to start that conversation with my current boss? He’s been a fantastic mentor & I’d really like to keep everything positive if I do end up leaving.

    1. Not Me*

      Say what you posted here! “I know I originally didn’t think this new role would be my first choice, but the more I learn about it the more interested I am in it. You’ve been a great mentor, I’d value your thoughts on it.” would be a good way to start the conversation.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      “You know how I said all things being equal I’d want to stay here? As I’m going through this process, I’m not sure all things are equal. Can we have a chat about it?”

  77. Heavy Duty Foil*

    The day after a holiday and no one wants to come to work. I get it. Neither do I. We work in an industry where we have to have so many people on duty. (Think nursing)

    I’m reflecting on my favorite call ins. This morning was a good one, employee said they had scratched their foot last night and now they believe it’s infected. Of course they cannot come in.

    All time favorite-girl could not come in because her washing machine was broke. We had washing sets on site and extra shirts. She still didn’t come in.

    Most interesting call ins?

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      We had an intern call in drunk once at old job. He had come in several Friday’s obviously hungover and still smelling like a brewery and he had been talked to by the coordinator. The following Friday was fine but the next Friday he called in still drunk from Thursday night. Apparently his frat house had parties every Thursday night since none of the guys had Friday morning classes. He opted to spend the prior Thursday night with his GF but decided he could handle the party that week without getting into trouble. He told one of the other interns the following week that he was doing ok until they started the beer-lympics and he and his teammate won everything so went to the finals. He was fired that Friday for coming in drunk (he Uber’d).

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I seriously almost “called in*” because my neighbors down the hall had a freaking rager that didn’t let up until past 6am. Yes, I’m serious. The dog woke us up at 5am, horribly agitated and I had to take him out at 5:30. I have a mild sleep disorder and even though I only got up an hour before I usually do and I managed to sleep for about 45 minutes after our walk, I feel like a zombie.

      *I work from home and have a light enough day that I can nap. Honestly, if I were still in an office, I would have emailed to say I would be late. So I almost called in because of someone ELSE’s partying.

    4. a*

      One time I had to call in because I was sprayed by a skunk while walking my dog that morning. I was perfectly fine, but I smelled terrible and I worked as a cashier at a grocery store.

    5. Some Windex for my Glass Ceiling please*

      We had someone who would arrive late almost every morning. Not late by a few minutes, but by a couple of hours.
      And every time it was a new excuse.
      Had to remove the fish from the fish tank because the power was out and pump no longer worked.
      Car trouble-you name the part and it had ‘gone bad’. Yet, she drove one of the most trouble-free makes on the road.
      Roommate broke her neck and needed assistance to the doctor. Followed by, roommate needed me to rub her neck to make the pain go away.
      Roommate needed to be consoled for being sued by her healthcare provider for having sued the party who caused the accident where she broke her neck. Said the healthcare provider wanted the funds as they’d covered the medical expenses.
      A mountain lion cub was in the living room. Had to wait for animal control to remove it.
      No hot water.
      Roommate told her to take shorter showers, but she just couldn’t do it.
      Roommate needed moral support to deal with the kitchen contractor who, after she’d paid the entire $30 for the remodel, could not get the contractor to complete the job.
      Dog ran off.
      Dog got lost.
      Dog won’t come out of the car (we’re talkin’ a 10lb dog here).
      Dog might have eaten something she shouldn’t have.
      Changed the clock the wrong way (forward) when daylight saving time ended (so wouldn’t that just make one really early?).
      Didn’t know Daylight Saving had started.

      1. Kathenus*

        I know it’s bad but I kinda love this. What creativity. They need to be writing sitcoms, I think.

    6. E*

      My cousin was supervising an intern who didn’t show up one day. They called the intern several hours after they were supposed to show up and the intern indicated they couldn’t come in (or even call in) because their roommate had broken a glass in the kitchen and they needed to clean it up…

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Didn’t get home until 3am due to an unexpected delayed flight (actual situation: missed the flight due to her own faul) so too tired to come in. That was actually an honest call-in, but still rude.

      In her position I would have gone into work anyway and muddled through — especially as she didn’t have to drive.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        Well when I say honest call-in… it was sort of honest. She was too tired (honest) but missed the flight rather that it being delayed (dishonest).

  78. Nicki Name*

    Last week, someone made an amazing sand painting on one of the tables in our common area for Diwali. Now we can never use that table again because no one wants to destroy a beautiful work of art.

    2. Knott Mai Naym*

      Take a picture using a good quality camera and print it as a large poster to hang somewhere nice in the office!

  79. Mina*

    Good morning all! I’m debating how to handle a health insurance related concern, and could use some outside input.

    I work for a small company, the only employees of which are myself and my boss. He and I have a good relationship, and is someone I had a casual friendship with prior to starting the position a few years back. At the time I started the position, he hadn’t provided health insurance to his previous employee, but added a policy on for the company as part of my overall compensation package, which he coordinated through a friend of his who’s an insurance broker. It’s a decent plan, but nothing extraordinary; he has his own private family health insurance, so I’m the only person on the plan at the moment.

    Fast forward to now; since taking on the position, I’ve come out privately as transgender. I haven’t started to transition, so publicly I’m still presenting as my birth gender, and have only shared this with a small group of friends/family. I’m taking things slowly at the moment, so I haven’t decided what my long-term plans for transitioning are. However, I’ve started to see a therapist and have an appointment scheduled for next year with a doctor that specializes in trans health care. At the moment, though, mental health services aren’t covered by my insurance, nor is any transgender specific services. I’ve been paying for my therapist appointments out of pocket.

    With open enrollment coming up, I’d like to look at updating my health coverage to include both mental health services and trans healthcare. However, I’m not sure the best way to navigate this, as I’d like to keep my gender status private for the moment. I have our broker’s contact information and have communicated directly with her in the past, so on one hand I’m tempted to reach out to ask her about the features I’m interested in, and ask her to keep it confidential from my boss; I’d then approach him, tell him I’d spoken to the broker about some (unspecified) changes I was interested in with regards to our health insurance, and offer to pay any cost increases that the change would incur. However, as I mentioned, the two are friends so while I hope that she would keep my request private, I’m not 100% sure she would. I (mostly) don’t have any doubt that my boss would by supportive in the abstract, but I’m in an extremely customer facing role and (rightly or wrongly) my gender transition would have an impact on how customers perceive myself and our company; I think most of our client base would be supportive, but we live in a fairly conservative state (although a liberal area of it), so there quite feasibly could be some who would react negatively. To be clear, if I do decide to move forward with transitioning, I’d be upfront with my boss about it and discuss how to manage this within our company. I’d just prefer to have that conversation on my timetable, once I have a clearer sense of what my long-term goals are.

    The final wrinkle on this is that we’re tentatively looking at adding on another employee in the next six months, so if I do request a change to our health plan, while it would only impact me at the moment, it could potentially cause some wrinkles down the road; after all, how does my boss navigate the new employee’s health insurance costs if we’ve incurred an increase in our plan’s base costs at my request, which I’m offsetting on my side?

    I know there’s not a clear answer here, but I feel that an outside perspective might help me to navigate this.

    1. Natalie*

      As far as the base cost, if you are in a state that has small business insurance pools/coops you might ask the broker to check that out. When you have dozens of companies in the risk pool, one employee’s expenses don’t have the same impact on rates.

  80. German Girl*

    A question to those of you who work in a very male dominated field but don’t identify as male.
    What do you wish you’d known when you started out?

    I’m a woman working in software engineering, which is a very male dominated field around here. The alumni network wants to give female students opportunities to get to know successful women in their field and ask questions, so I’ve been invited to a Q&A teatime.

    Of course I’ll have my own experiences to draw on, but I thought it would be a good idea to prepare by hearing what others wish they’d known when they entered the work world of their male dominated field.

    Any words of advice?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I feel like you already know a lot once you’ve completed an educational program in a male-dominated field, but the thing one may not be prepared for in 2019 is the still-present glass ceiling, and perhaps now some of the “me too” blowback. I see the glass ceiling. I haven’t personally seen “me too” impacts.

      Another issue is that reality is you have to carefully straddle the personality line. Female introversion is often perceived as a lack of confidence, which [some] men perceive as a lack of competence. Female extraversion is perceived as being a bully or other b-words.

      I think all new grads should understand the types of roles that advance ones career and the ones that don’t, but women should be especially careful not to take on supporting roles. . .and to not be on the party planning committee. I think it’s easy for women to bump into perhaps the plastic ceiling early in their careers in an operations role and see a female HR director and jump off the operations track. It’s a personal choice, but I encourage young female engineers to stay where the dirty work is.

    2. Engineer Girl*

      • People will use higher and stricter standards for you because you are female. They will also move the goalposts if you meet the qualifications.
      • People will dismiss my work just because I’m female. I need to quantize my achievements for people to see what I’ve done. Even then they will argue that “Bill” did more. Ask for clarification to force them to acknowledge your work.
      • On shared projects, they will give the man all the credit. Make sure you are the spokesperson so you can show that you are doing the work.
      • They will always try to give you the housekeeping tasks (take notes, record data). Try to create a rota so the work is shared.
      • Take on extra technical tasks (not administrative) to show your talents.
      • Take on solo assignments to show your skills (otherwise they will give credit to a man for your work)
      • Take on jobs that give visibility outside your grip. That way you have others advocating for you. This is important if you have a sexist boss and need others to override their vote.
      • You WILL be harassed. It’s a matter of when. Keep a journal of incidents. Make sure you quantize it. Dates, times, witnesses, conversations. Only give copies to HR, never the original. (HR will try to destroy the evidence).
      • While men are promoted on potential, women usually have to prove it again. When denied the promotion your peers got, ask for clear achievements you need to get that promotion. Ask what the other person had that you didn’t have. And leave if they keep denying you a promotion because you are “too important” to the project.
      • You’ll need to socialize your work much more to get it accepted. This will take extra time. Account for it in your schedule.
      • Female friendly places have a disproportionate number of women working there. Any place that has over 20% female technical types is a great place to work. (Women will flock to any place that gives them equal opportunity).
      • HR discriminates against women in hiring. Use your personal networks to get around them and find jobs.
      • Get credit for you work by sending weekly activity reports to your boss. Also let people know what you are working on. That keeps people from taking credit for your work. (These reports are great at the end of the year when you have to write up your achievements)
      • You have to advocate for yourself because no on else will.

      2. Policy Wonk*

        Thumbs up to all this. I also tell them that sometimes it feels like you are living in a fishbowl – eyes are on you that would not be on a man at the same place in his career. At times you may get opportunities that are not available to male peers – they want to trot you out to show their diverse work place – but at others you don’t get invited because they didn’t think you’d want to golf or go to a basketball game.

        That said, I also like to tell stories about how things have improved since I’ve been in the workplace, so they don’t get discouraged.

      3. Wishing You Well*

        Yes to Engineer Girl’s list.
        In some companies and countries, things have not improved with time. Keep your resume up to date and be prepared to job search if you find a job untenable. You cannot change an entire organization and your own career must come first. Be extroverted. Men will hesitate to abuse you if they know you’ll make a stink about it.
        Good speed.

    3. NotAPirate*

      I dream of the day when I can be just another engineer and not a female engineer. I know it’s a positive association, I know it’s good for the next gen. But I dislike being singled out that way. I dislike feeling like my gender matters at all at work.

      How to navigate crude humor and swearing was something younger NotAPirate would have liked to know, trying to be one of the guys but still be able to draw the line at things that aren’t funny. Dealing with sexist humor was another big deal, the amount of women drivers jokes.

      That you will need to self advocate. Speaking up for bathrooms, etc. Some of the field engineers use the bathroom in the woods, that’s less appealing to me, let’s find a mcdonalds on the way to the next site.

      This is both genders, but navigating people wanting to talk about why aren’t you dating, why aren’t you married, oh your married why don’t you have kids, without creating tension at work.

      My experience with those types of events is people usually ask about how did you end up in your field/job/role, what do you like, what do you wish you did differently, what advice would you give you 21 year old self, etc. I’ve also seen speakers speak candidly about norms for jewellery, makeup clothes in their field. Especially if you are the only female in the office it can be hard sometimes to translate type of clothing from your male counterparts. One of the most useful notes I got from a college event like that was to bring extra shoes to interviews. Heels to interview, closed toe flat shoes/boots for plant tour. Men’s shoes can get away with interview and tour, women’s cannot due to safety regulations. Missing out on the tour portion can be detrimental.

    4. Engineer Girl*

      Beware the gaslighting!
      Another thing – many men will make comments that you’re not as good as them. If you don’t have a lot of self confidence you start to believe them. It took a long time for me to look at the qualifier and quantity of their work and go “hey! Wait a minute!”
      In short, men will try to gaslight you into believing your work is worse than theirs. That’s why you need to quantize your work for comparison. (X loc, Y modules, Z error rate). I found that they usually had to replace me with 3-6 men when I left. Yet they still insisted that my work was less (their scope was larger, don’t you know)
      I also saw that when I really rocked an assignment it was because the assignment was “easy” and when I struggled it was because I was “stupid”. Conversely, when men rocked the assignment it was because they were brilliant and when they struggled it was because the assignment was hard.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My advice is to go in with open eyes and be willing to fight for yourself, even if it means people think you’re a “bitch” or “overbearing”. Be ready to push back when someone says something sexist to you and command respect. When someone says that kind of stuff, they’re scared and the response is usually “Why are you scared, if John told you this, you’d just do it.” and to put their sexism and nonsense in front of their noses if necessary.

      I learned to deal with “good ol’ boys” and dickheads young in life, before the working world. So I was somewhat conditioned prior to going into the big kids pool.

      A network and Q&A is awesome and can really help, I like that setup.

    6. Engineer Girl*

      Also be aware of opportunity withholding.
      There’s only X security clearances so we can’t clear you (but they can clear bosses not related to the project)
      There’s only Y training slots “next time you’ll get yours.”. Except there is never a next time.

      You need to confront these and ask for the selection criteria. Then insist that you need it for your job. Escalate as needed.

    7. Close Bracket*

      You will have to coax people into complying with perfectly reasonable requests that it is your place to make and their place to comply with.

      Men will not understand that the reason you struggle with certain things (see above, and many of the things on Engineer Girl’s list) is gender-based, not that you are doing anything wrong.

      1. Engineer Girl*

        And men get really upset with you when you tell them “no”. Even when you are the technical expert and have to sign off on their work. They will argue. They will ridicule. They will mansplain.
        So try to make the no sound like a yes. It’s not right, but it’s quicker.

        In short, they view you as incompetent even when they are inferior in knowledge and skill set.

        1. LabTechNoMore*

          Thank you for this and the above list. As a Man of Color in STEM, I was nodding along, both having experienced these, and having seen women in the lab/office go through this: The gas lighting, aggressive insistence of incompetence, and HR being a major contributing factor. Reading that list made me feel a little less like I’m just bad at navigating my career, so thanks for that. (Now I just need my resume to look less job hopper-y. Let’s hope the new job helps!)

          1. Close Bracket*

            Reading that list made me feel a little less like I’m just bad at navigating my career, so thanks for that.

            There is a double helping of Dunning Kruger for women and people of color (triple helping for women of color) at play in fields dominated by white men. It’s the gas lighting — the having to coax someone into doing their job, the having to make it seem like you are telling someone what a great job they did when you are actually telling them that they need to do things better, the perception of incompetence when you are not outgoing and charismatic. It’s a load of bs, and it makes it really hard to improve when you can’t tell where you have a weakness and where you are being told you have a weakness. Solidarity, bro.

          2. Engineer Girl*

            The beauty of the internet is finding out that your experience is not unique.

            Before the internet there was isolation. That made it easier to gaslight competent people into thinking they are incompetent. You also have a way to check your skill set independent of others.

            I’m a big advocate of quantizing achievements to show accomplishments. It provides clearer criteria for evaluations.

    8. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Much as you may want to make the world better for other women in your position, no one person can do everything. It’s totally OK to pick what you want to focus on, and it’s totally OK to decide you’re going to keep your head down at work while you make things better somewhere else.

  81. Blarg*

    Vent about a very stupid job. I don’t even need anyone to reply. I’m just so frustrated.

    I applied to a couple jobs at well respected non profit in my field. An old mentor was once highly placed on their member side and he put in a word. I first got called in about a job they weren’t going to fill but chalked it up to meet and greet. Then they had me come in for a position I was really excited about. Asked for a second meeting where HR said they were going to hire internal as per policy (so why did they interview external??) but maybe could bring me on for the same project as a temp. And they’d figure out the math and get back to me.

    Then it was rapid fire, can you start next week?, with HR saying temp/no benefits but you are an employee not contractor and hiring manager saying we really want you and are going to write a job description that will be appropriate and then you can apply for it by the end of the year. Cool.

    Turns out there are “rules” about what temps can do/have access to that makes doing my job hard so manager keeps pushing for exceptions. I mention the permanent job to HR as part of a different convo, and they seemed surprised.

    I find out about a holiday office closure that will leave me unpaid (closed for a whole week so it doesn’t matter I’m salary) and am frustrated no one told me about this. I mention to supervisor I may need to get a second job to cover salary loss — or maybe we can get the permanent job thing going.

    Monday I get called in to a meeting with HR and hiring manager. They decided to let me go, immediately, because they weren’t going to create a perm position. HR said “I thought I was clear,” and I said “hiring manager said X.” And HR was like, “well, they were wrong.” Hiring manager is just sitting there, stone faced. They acted like I’d misinterpreted things and been pushy when I had in email what manager had said. They were not on the same page but decided to blame me. I’m fine with a realization that there wasn’t funding or something, and I’d rather know sooner than later. But this felt like a pissing match that I got caught in the middle of. And the job lasted less than a month.

    So … I need another job. Again. And I’m frustrated and disappointed and annoyed and just … urghhhhh. (The positive: my mentor is irate on my behalf. So at least I maintained that valued relationship).

    1. Mazzy*

      I feel for you and you can have the feeling that you did nothing wrong. And it’s wrong what they did especially as we roll towards recession, and if things turned down, they could have basically taken your chance to find another job.

      1. Blarg*

        Thanks. It’s also an org that I really respected and now I wonder what other kinds of shenanigans are going on…

  82. Ciela*

    I started reading AAM a few years ago. I was looking for any resources to help adults with high functioning autism to handle customer interaction better.
    If I ever met Alison, I would give her a big hug (after making sure it was okay for me to be in her personal space like that).
    The sample wording in most of her answers has been unbelievably helpful. I went from having filled out my “annual” review that was so bad the bosses wouldn’t even talk to me about, to 2 years later filling out the only annual review they liked. Content was almost exactly the same, just used softer language in some portions. My work isn’t repetitive, it’s consistent!

    I have noticed that there are some very broad answers to many questions.

    1) Everybody poops. Get in, do your business, don’t leave a mess, get out. Allow everyone else to do the same without comment. Unless of course they have started a fire and it smells like a poop barbecue. https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/my-coworker-is-setting-toilet-paper-on-fire-in-the-bathroom.html
    2) Talk to them. Issue with a coworker? Talk to them directly and plainly. Sometimes it makes sense to loop in a manager, much less often does it call for HR.
    3) Yes, it probably is legal. Just because you don’t like it, or it seems rude or insensitive, doesn’t make it a crime.
    4) Try and leave personal problems at home. Do not pry into other’s personal problems. You can be friendly without being intrusive.
    5) Let it go. Someone on your tier, or higher says “No thanks, I’m good!” leave it be. More junior people may need to be corrected if it is an Important Work Thing.
    6) Other people are silly. Sometimes the path of least resistance is making it about you, not them. “Oh yeah I have this weird thing where I don’t like other people playing with my hair!” Honestly, who goes up to a stranger and starts fondling their hair? Normally I’d slap a person, but I did not think I should slap a customer.
    7) Other people are very silly. Sometimes you want to call out the behavior loudly and in the moment. “Hey! Don’t fondle my hair!”
    8) Give them the answers that you want back. Of course you’re not expecting me to pay for this out of pocket. “Will the company purchase this, or should I buy it on my own, and submit the receipt for reimbursement?”

    1. fposte*

      This is a great overview that could also be an excellent guidance list for people entering the workforce or trying to figure out office norms.

  83. Fed Up*

    Any suggestions for how to deal with a lazy coworker? I do client-based work and the project manager who is responsible for admin part of each account (tracking delivered work, running status calls, etc.) routinely sends emails to me and others asking basic questions about if things have been delivered, and they are always copied on the delivery emails.

    This person just sent a high priority email at 11:36AM asking if 4 items had been delivered over the past 3 days, because they have a status meeting with the client at noon (!) This information could easily be looked up in about 2 minutes.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Instead of sending them the information, can you send them information about where to find it? To give them the hint that they can figure it out themselves in that 2 minutes? In that “Oh that information is in the share-drive under the project name. Hope that helps!” Instead of sending the documents directly to them and essentially doing their job for them…

    2. Blarg*

      With something that late, I’d reply later — after their meeting. “Oh sorry, I was away from my desk/at a meeting/engrossed in cleaning this month’s data/cleaning my toenails and just saw your message. Hope your meeting went well. In the future, you can find the updated expenditures for X here and the projections for Y over here.”

      Then you are establishing both that you won’t be available at the last minute and that they can get it themselves. If they complain to the boss, your reply shows you were actually super helpful as soon as you were able (conveniently after they needed you). And you’ve created natural consequences.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        In addition to replying too late, i’d be tempted to write, “As you know, the info is located here (insert shared server location)” just to drive it home that this person’s role is supposed to know that.

  84. Cap. Marvel*

    Weird question and would like some feedback on this.
    My boyfriend, Rhodey, applied to a job on Indeed and was sent an email asking him to re-send his cover letter, they never asked for a resume, to a different email; an email that looks to be a personal rather than a company email. We couldn’t find any record of this company in our area, so I told him to email the personal one and ask for clarification on the location of this job so he can ensure he was in commuting distance before he went any further.
    Now he’s received a response and this guy has told Rhodey that it is not just a administrative assistant position, but a administrative personal assistant position (whatever that means…). It’s also not full-time but part-time. He has` been given a new list of responsibilities and duties and some information on the benefits that the company will provide. This guy also clarified that the reason Rhodey couldn’t find a record of the company is because they’re opening a new branch and that is why the duties have changed from the listing on Indeed. He is looking for someone in the area to be the point of contact while he is traveling back and forth, and needs someone who is okay working from home while they get the office ready. The pay is not great, but he would have the benefits of a full time employee with a possibility to move into a full-time position. Then he said to provide a mailing address and a phone number and that he was interested in interviewing him if he was still interested in the position.
    I thought this made sense, and advised Rhodey to send him his information (which wasn’t on his cover letter) and go to the interview. If he didn’t like what he heard, then he could always turn down the job.
    Rhodey thought this sounded like a scam and instead emailed someone (I don’t know who) in the company to verify that his guy worked for them and this was a position that was actually open. I thought that was a little weird to do and that might hurt his chances if this guy is legit.
    What do others think?

    1. fposte*

      I’m with Rhodey; It sounds pretty scammy to me too. I think there’s a high chance that this is a package mule kind of thing.

        1. fposte*

          I’ll post a link, but basically the “personal assistance” would be reshipping goods for the “employer,” who isn’t in the U.S. Your employer will send you a cashier’s check to cover the costs, but for some reason the cashier’s check will be for more than the shipping cost–so hey, can you just send the overage back to your employer, probably via Western Union (or gift cards)? And then the cashier’s check turns out to be bogus, so you’re on the hook for the whole thing, and you’ve also given the crook your personal information including SSN.

          2. fposte*

            Oh, and there’s a thread on the Indeed forums about such scams coming in the form of ads for assistants; see if any of this resembles the communication Rhodey was getting. (If it does, I wouldn’t even bother mailing anybody else at the company, because they’re all scammers.)

            Link in followup.

      2. Cap. Marvel*

        Thanks for the links! It doesn’t look at all like the correspondence he’s had with this guy. In fact, there’s nothing about receiving or sending packages but I could see how that would be a possibility.
        The more I think about it, the better I feel about him not listening to me.

        1. valentine*

          At best, it’s a bait and switch. Does Rhodey really want to be a personal assistant, probably working in their home (hence the personal email), with other duties like handling their dry cleaning or school runs?

    2. HR Stoolie*

      Definitely sounds like a scam. I see a fair amount since I’m responsible for company recruiting. Big flags come up when the position is poorly defined and vaguely worded.

      1. fposte*

        Right. Email without seeing the applicant’s resume, office that Google’s never heard of, working at home, part-time job but with benefits, boss is “traveling”–put them all together and they spell “scam.”

    3. LilySparrow*

      Rhodey is right.

      Big red flag is the personal email. Anybody being sent to open a new branch would have work email – your email address isn’t dependent on the building you’re in.

      On the off chance it’s real, it’s a very reasonable thing to check up on.

  85. RobotWithHumanHair*

    I just had a ten minute conversation with my colleague as to what RPG alignment Gordon Ramsey would be.

    I’m firmly coming down on the side of Chaotic Neutral.

    So that’s how my day is going!

    2. samecoin*

      Lawful Neutral: He has spent his life dedicated to training in the art of cooking ( Lawful) has an F ton of rules for his Kitchen ( And any Kitchen) ( Lawful), will destroy adults and protect children ( Neutral)

  86. blankspace13*

    A couple weeks ago I got rejected from a job I really wanted and was told I was a finalist. I wanted to ask for feedback, but I was too bitter so didn’t Now, I was just contacted by someone from another department to interview for a different opening, and told the hiring manager from the last role passed me along and recommended me. However, he required me to apply from scratch with a new resume and cover letter. We have a phone interview next week. I can’t really figure out if this means I’m being considered above other applicants or back in the general pool with the 100+ people who also applied (according to LinkedIn). I also can’t shake this feeling of being not good enough from the first rejection and worrying about if I’ll be rejected a second time. Does anybody have any do’s or don’t s for navigating this type of situation?

    1. Colette*

      I think you’re reading too much into the rejection. They presumably found someone who they hired – which doesn’t mean you couldn’t have done the job well, but one of the first things you learn when you hire people is that you can’t hire everyone. You can’t even hire all of the people who’d do the job well.

      Remind yourself that the hiring manager wouldn’t have recommended you if he didn’t think you were a good fit for the job. And then move on and apply for jobs elsewhere.

    2. OtterB*

      I agree with Colette that the hiring manager from the first job would not have passed your name along if they didn’t think you were a reasonable fit. It doesn’t mean you’re a shoo-in, but it means your qualifications and interview the first time around were good. Do try to shake the “not good enough” feeling from the first time, because it can depend so much on the competition, on a balancing act of skills within the work group, etc. Good luck with it.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Go with it! There are so many reasons why you didn’t get the job, and it could be down to someone internal wanted it. They liked you, they just couldn’t offer you this job. The recommendation from the first hiring manager is worth a lot– you may not be considered a shoo-in, but you also won’t be in the “complete unknown” bucket.

    4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      It is really hard-to-impossible to transfer a job application from one job posting/hiring manager to another. It could be a functionality their software doesn’t have, or isn’t enabled, or they have a company policy against for demographic and EEO compliance purposes.

      Don’t take the separate application personally at all, it’s probably a bureaucratic thing.

      1. Krabby*

        Yeah, this is how my company does it. Also, the fact you were passed along tells me that your initial rejection was likely of the “we would hire all of them, but we had to pick just one” variety. Meaning that job was yours if the rest of the candidate pool hadn’t been stronger/a better fit in some way that isn’t really about your abilities.

    5. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      I feel you. When there is more than one good candidate for a job, someone has to get rejected, even if they are good enough. It’s not that you weren’t good enough, but something totally random worked against you (like the other person has working proficiency in Chinese, and they have some Chinese clients so that’s useful.)

      That being said, I wouldn’t assume that you have the upper hand for the second job. You will still be competing against other candidates. But statistically, the more jobs you apply for, the more chances you have of getting one, so I would still go for it. Try asking your former interviewer for feedback from your last interview.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Do you “really want” this job as well, is it a better alternative to whatever your job is now? The hiring manager for Job 1 passed along your details to Job 2 where you may be a better fit in their company, but is it a better fit for you?

      I would ‘play it cool’ unless you really do want this new job. Apply, follow their process, don’t think any more of it…

      Once you have got a phone interview (which you have) you’re past the first stage of the “general pool” but I think at that point you are being considered alongside others who have reached the same point and don’t have any special privilege here.

      Approach it independently from the original job you applied for at this point. (rather than seeing it as “rejected for a second time” or similar).

  87. Marian the Librarian*

    I’m wondering if anyone has been in a similar position…
    I recently started a new job right before getting married, and my husband was thrilled for me for the opportunity (it’s basically a dream job with great benefits, etc.). However, we had to move 3 hours away from our old town for it (which we don’t mind!), but Hubby is struggling with his job search here…As in, he won’t really look, when I show him postings it’s always “I’ll take a look at it later,” and he’ll ask me to help with his resume “later today,” but when I bring it up he finds some excuse not too.

    I think a lot of it is that he’s lost some self-confidence (his old job/coworkers were absolutely terrible), he’s not perfectly qualified for the postings (which he won’t accept is fine), and there’s not a ton of postings in this tow in the exact field he just came from.

    Anyways, does anyone have any advice for how to help him more in his job search? I’m kinda lost at where to go.

    1. Knott Mai Naym*

      Has he tried therapy? Sometimes major life changes come with a dip in mental health. It’s hard to work on being employed when nothing feels quite right. I’d say, if he hasn’t already, the first step would be to try therapy.

      Second, I’d recommend having some at home ‘work time’ – is there any project you’d like to work on at home? Ask him if he can help keep you accountable to it by sitting with you and working next to you (you don’t have to say specifically on resumes or job apps! Maybe suggest that and anything else he wants to work on – a writing project, an around the house project, etc). That lets him know that he’s not working just for himself, and also makes it clear that you don’t consider *him* your project. You just want him to feel good about what he’s doing, and would like to be there with him through it. And being there for each other is reciprocal!

      1. Marian the Librarian*

        Thank you so much– these are some really good ideas! We try to be pretty open about mental health, so therapy could definitely be a good option. Also, the ideas of having my own things to ask him to sit with me for is a great idea, and would give me some motivation to work on some hobbies I haven’t done in a while!

    2. Cap. Marvel*

      Not really the same situation, but my boyfriend has been struggling to find a job in his field since we graduated. He’s finding that he doesn’t have enough work experience that most positions ask for so he was really demoralized for some time.
      He HATES talking about his feelings so it was a struggle, but I finally got him to open up. I learned that there was more on his mind than him not fitting the qualifications and we had to talk a lot of stuff out.
      After talking it out, we created a system so he can keep me updated on his job search and unload any of his worries.
      I think you may have to focus on how he’s feeling before you tackle the job search, as weird as it may sound.

    3. Blueberry Girl*

      Have you spoken to him bluntly about how much stress his inaction is causing you? When I moved with my boyfriend for my new job, he was reluctant to job hunt until we had moved. I had to really explain my fears of him not finding anything and my concerns about our finances, before he understood why it was important to me that he try even if he didn’t find anything. So, if you haven’t openly and fully communicated how much this is troubling you, than I think that might be the first step. Additionally, I would add that you can’t want this for him more than he wants it for himself and at some point, no amount of help replaces him deciding he wants this as much as you do.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      If I can be blunt… look inside yourself / your relationship as to whether he seems to be expecting you to be the “breadwinner” and he can have an easy life. I’ve been there — you can throw this out as irrelevant if you don’t think it fits.

      1. valentine*

        whether he seems to be expecting you to be the “breadwinner” and he can have an easy life.
        This is what I’d be worried about. Also: Does he regret the move or said yes because denying you your dream job reads really poorly on paper and is (perhaps subconsciously) punishing you? He doesn’t sound on board anymore. I would expect someone in his position to be making your home life easy so you can focus on your new job, being excited to hear all about it, and providing nice touches like flowers, if you like them, or your morning or evening coffee or what have you.

        You don’t have to help him with the search, but sit him down and go over your values and goals, which include him working and earning at least $x so you can have the life you planned.

  88. AnxiousBunny*

    Been browsing job postings and what do I come across but a posting from my company…for something that sounds suspiciously like my job.

    Not sure what to do. I had quite positive feedback at my most recent employee review, so maybe they’re really just adding someone on. Then again I just got a new manager a month ago, maybe he wants to shake things up, as it were.

    This would be less worrying if my current job hunt were going better…sigh

    1. Nicole*

      I think since it is from your company, you are free to bring it up. I think that many employees browse their companies job openings out of curiosity and stay on top of what is happening. You can just bring it up casually with your manager – sort of a, “hey, I saw our company posted this job – do you know which team that is for?”

      1. Krabby*

        Bring it up like it’s not about you. Go to your manager and ask about how the new person is going to fit into the team. Ie, “I saw we posted a job for another Analyst. Are we finally getting someone to take on the backlog in the chocolates database?” You’ll learn a lot based on the response.

        That said, it’s very possible that your boss is expanding your team and just hasn’t announced it yet. Or, it could be that the job board you’re looking at scrapes their posts and it has an outdated posting. It happens all the time.

  89. Trying Not to Job Hop*

    Should I list my current job on my resume if I’m going to quit soon but have a work history gap? To show that I am hireable…?

    I’ve only been in my new role for 2 months but I don’t think I can keep going when I’m deeply unhappy with the work place culture and have been yelled at and snarled by my boss multiple times.

    The issue is that I graduated from college in 2017 and have had a pathetic work history that will not make me look favorable. I quit my last full-time job in February of this year, had a break for a month, and then couldn’t find anything except for a temp summer position.

    Since my summer position ended in August, I’m worried that hiring managers will think it’s a red flag if I’ve been “looking” for another job. So would it be a horrible idea to list my current gig in my resume and explain why I left in 2 months into the job?

    1. fposte*

      I think a two-month job that you left looks worse than a job search that lasted two months longer, especially when you quit a job earlier that same year. I wouldn’t put it on unless you lasted at least six months, and preferably you’d find a job before you left it even in that case.

  90. hungry doobie*

    I was recently promoted to head up my department due to my boss’s upcoming departure and have approval to replace the headcount. This is an individual contributor role in a large department, someone with around 5 years is appropriate for the position. A few people with titles like EVP and VP have applied saying they are interested in a less senior role but I am extremely uncomfortable with this. The HR person told me that titles don’t mean anything and my new boss (an SVP in another practice area) seems to think it was normal that someone with 25 years experience who has been a VP since 1998 would be interested.

    I really feel like this is out of whack and have no desire to deal with someone who is potentially going to be wondering how soon they can get my job. How to handle this without looking difficult or like I’m threatened by these people (which tbh, I’m a little nervous that senior management is going to wish they brought one of these people in instead of promoting me…)

    (if relevant, I’ve moved from manager to VP. It’s a big step up for me and I’m going to be navigating some new territory. I’m in my 40s so I’m not a young rockstar who will be dealing with people thinking I’m very junior and don’t deserve the role but this is still new to me and I hate that it’s starting out with this stress)

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I work with a LOT of job seekers who are well into their careers who would LOVE to step down from a senior role, to focus in on the piece of their occupation that they actually enjoyed, rather than the managerial pieces that they were happier to do when they were younger and had different needs.

      Ask good questions about how they would see the job and how well they work with others. Watch out for red flags of know-it-all-ness, and consider the incredible value of having experienced people to work with as you learn your new role in management.

    2. Kathenus*

      I’ve interviewed candidates that were seemingly overqualified before, and one key for me is something you reference – why are they looking at a job that seems a step down on paper and did they proactively address it in their application materials. Please try to look at their credentials and evaluate them with an open mind. Aspiring Chicken Lady has some great ideas on what to look for in interviews as well. These candidates shouldn’t necessarily be considered at the exclusion of others with a more traditional background, but I’ve found having candidates with different backgrounds very useful during the interview stage to help evaluate the individual traits and experiences each can add to the team at that time. And it’s worth keeping in mind that if both HR and your new boss see these as potentially valid candidates, excluding them all from consideration if some may merit an interview may not have good optics. Best of luck.

  91. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I have CHOICES to make about where I want my office since we’re moving facilities [ef you landlords, nevaaaaaaaaa gonna deal with property management again, yeaaaaaaaaaasssss I’m so excited]. This is stressful though, both choices are good choices…why can’t one of them be “You can be in the dungeon or you can be over here with the living…” that would make things so much easier. [Spoiler, I actually want to be among the living in this case, lol.]

    But no, I can’t wait until we start construction on this place and then things get done so I can put up a count-down tracker to when the last time I have to deal with stank-ass property managers who do nothing. Including being all “oh that’s interesting that the bark-o-mulch caught fire, thanks for putting that out tho.” Gurl…how about realizing that you made a piss-poor decision using a flammable material for outside where the transients toss their burning cigs. I hate renting commercial real estate.

    This also means I’ll be put in charge of the “facility management” aspect which I already do anyways, without that stupid landlord hoop so I laughed when my boss was half joking about how “You’re the property manager now.” “And this is supposedly a new setup?”

    1. Jamie*

      Yay! Are both the same in size and amenities, just a difference in location?

      Please let me live vicariously through you.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is bigger. And fancier *_* The place we’re at now is fine, it’s too big for us anyways but our owners want MOAR SPACE because “what if we grow…” [We are constantly growing but our capacity is not even close to being capped out.]

        Better location in terms of I’m not going to be next to a homeless encampment but we’ll still have some issues to deal with given our proximity to another similar situation but we’ll have fencesssss, fence me in, bro!

        I’m trying to talk the boss into letting me rent a party-bus to take our crew over to check the new digs out. He is already on board but was in the idea of “we can get a bunch of ubers…” and I’m like “Or we can rent a van…no no no I trust nobody to drive a passenger van, let’s rent a party bus.” He’s gonna crack, I’m gonna make him crack.

        1. Jamie*

          Ha – good luck with cracking the boss.

          What are the differences between your two office options? Any chance of a private bathroom which will make me more jealous than I’ve ever been?

          (I know they are unicorns, but I have so few dreams.)

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            LOL, I essentially have a private bathroom regardless being the only woman.

            The choices are “being close to the action” and right up front or being set back a bit more. One has more windows/light, which I’m a fan of after being housed in a cave of a warehouse for over a decade previously. I’m finding the closer-to the action location edging out the slightly more secluded because of my position. If I was just accounting, leave me in the darkness but I do HR too and deal with the facility stuff, so I get “visitors” plenty, so they don’t have to come “find me” that way as well.

            My life is hard. Boo-hoo I have two big offices to choose from, both are diamonds and I cannot see which one is shiny enough. Please bring me some grapes and fan me while I make this difficult life decision.

            1. Jamie*

              HA! It is hard to chose between options of awesome.

              I am awaiting my boss to move from his cramped, ugly office into the recently vacated big boss office…so I can have his old cramped, ugly office which is a shade of orange so hideous it cannot be described in mere words.

              I could weep when I think of my offices past. The walk in closet, the wrap around desk, the expansive space.

              I am a cautionary tale, so not let burn out happen …the slide down the ladder is painful af.

              1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                This has been my best setup so far.

                My first office, was a tent. A tent. In a warehouse that was used for cold storage. Shared with 4 other people. Then countless warehouses with at least something that resembled an office but was also doubled as storage. I helped my mechanic friend for awhile and he had a “pop up” kind of office setup. Motor oil and fumes…so the receptionist having a space heater gave me so many pangs of “we’re all gonna die, this is how we die!” In reality, it was was all spread out enough that it wasn’t close enough to combust but still, the fear was there.

                Now I am in office heaven. I could be like Goldilocks and just try each one out I suppose. A desk in each one. “This office is too big!” “this office is too small!” “this office is just riiiiiiigh.”

                2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

                  Speaking of Harry Potter, I once had an office that was in a converted storage closet, under a staircase.

                  It was a FANTASTIC office because everyone except my department thought it was “yucky,” and thus they left me alone 95% of the time.

                3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                  I had a house with a closet under the stairs…and called it my Harry Potter closet. I had to be talked out of making it my actual bedroom. “Your bed will not fit in here, stop being dumb” was said a couple of times, LOL

    2. Coverage Associate*

      FWIW, one thing I respect about my mom is the 2 times she’s set up office space for the business she owns, she put her office as the boss in the middle. I respect that in hiring managers when I interview too.

      So I vote for the office closer to the action.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This tips the scale really. It was in my mind.

        This is also why I’m setting my office up as more of an inviting space because I want people to be able to sit in there and do their new hire paperwork if they want to or to be able to do interviews in here instead of doing them in the big old conference room that’s just…so big for three people to do an interview in.

        It’s a bit weird because of how it’s two departments but I think that I have to tip towards HR side. Also we’re still small and I have a door to close anyways.

        Also everyone will see my decorations, if I’m hidden WHAT IS EVEN THE POINT.

  92. Phil*

    Can anyone offer some insight as to the difference between an American “resume” (which I’m familiar with) and a British “CV”? Are they exactly the same, or are there cultural norms to be aware of?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      So it’s not the CV is a british thing and resumes are american. Resumes and CV’s are/can be the different animals but it generally comes down to purpose. CV literally means life’s work (or course of life) so it’s much longer and generally only used in academia, medicine and maybe law. I’ve seen 30+ page CV’s when it’s every article they’ve ever written.

      The rest of us just use a resume. Which is more work experience driven and shorter. Now, resumes in UK may be different from the US but we have both here.

      1. Grace*

        I mean, it kind of is that CVs are British and resumes are American. We don’t have anything called a resume in the UK. It literally does not exist. What you call a resume, we call a CV. A CV submitted for an academic role is an academic CV.

    2. Grace*

      Put it this way – I followed most of Alison’s American-centric “resume” advice for my British CV, ditto her interview advice, and I got an offer at the first place I interviewed after graduation this summer. (Life is good.)

      My office continued hiring for the same job title after I joined, so I’ve looked over my coworkers’ shoulders and seen it from both sides. The main differences I’ve seen between the advice on here and what is the norm in the UK are: thank-you notes aren’t a thing here, except possibly in very specific fields, and people will just think you’re being pushy; you may have seen people talk about CVs in ‘Europe’ having photos etc but that’s not the case in the UK; some sort of hobbies section is acceptable here so long as it’s reasonable.

      ‘Reasonable’ hobbies include things like hikes, particularly if they involve mountains (I mentioned a walking holiday in Norway and we chatted about that for a while) playing instruments so long as you can say you’re in some sort of orchestra or band, etc. A coworker hired shortly before me put on her CV that she’s a beekeeper, and even the CEO asked her about it when he had her CV in front of him. Separate section tucked away at the bottom, of course.

    3. Hazy days*

      A CV in Britain is similar (I imagine) to your resumes, but somewhat more detailed, and normally 2 sides. We don’t usually have phone interviews before having an in-person interview, so you have more information up front on both sides, from what I can tell.
      So your CV is what they’re using to select the people for face-to-face interviews. It’s not unusual for it to have some brief info about out of work commitments, interests etc.

  93. anonymous to scream*

    A colleague was fired about two weeks ago for unspecified drug use during a work trip (keeping it vague, but suffice to say it was fairly serious, not marijuana). Someone protested the firing on the grounds that in the past, a different colleague had overdosed on heroin and faced no consequences, so how was anyone to know that drug use was against the rule?

    And there’s a point to be made there, but not the one that they thought.

      1. anonymous to scream*

        The earlier overdose incident was during a work trip, as well, I should have specified!

        2. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

          Person 1 does have a good point though. Why wasn’t heroin user fired?

          1. valentine*

            Why wasn’t heroin user fired?
            Because that would be unnecessarily cruel?

            (I misread the offense as “uninspired” drug use.)

  94. Stef*

    Hi, everyone.
    I want to ask a question to everyone here. Do you need to know someone in order to get hired? My dad is very old-school (born in ’55), and he thinks because he didn’t need to anyone to help him land a job, the same should apply to myself. I’m currently transitioning from retail to clerical, and I’m having a hard time. I’ve been to dozens of interviews, dealt with horrible interviewers, and I haven’t been offered a job. I’ve been searching for 5 months now, and my rejections have been: you don’t have $10,000 cash handling experience to be a bank teller, you don’t have receptionist experience, you never worked in an office before, you don’t own a smartphone so you can’t be a salesperson (even though I have 4 years sales experience), the company changed its management position requirements to 2-3 years experience (even though all Supervisor I positions in multiple states DO not state 2-3 years management experience), and you don’t have front desk hotel experience so you don’t know how to charge credit cards to customers (which doesn’t make sense because don’t you just swipe the card?).
    My mom as well as her late sister both networked and needed people to plug them in to jobs and they’d land them.
    My dad doesn’t want to help me and says I should do it on my own, even though I ask him to help me land a clerical job at the local hospital where his family works (except his family expects to have their feet kissed or they won’t do anything). Is my dad right or wrong?

    1. Asuwayda*

      I mean, to some extent it depends on what kind of jobs you’re applying for. I do not believe that you typically need a connection to obtain an entry level position like the ones you described.
      I would recommend working with a temp agency. There’s less of a risk for the company with a temp hire because they can easily replace the temp if things don’t work out. On your end, you build experience for your resume.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        Yup. We’ve hired a handful of people now for admin-ish type positions from them originally being placed as a temp here.

    2. Lemon Ginger Tea*

      I’m an ‘elder millenial’ (mid thirties) and thus, I’ve done a fair amount of job hopping. Of all my jobs, I only landed *one* of them without networking/knowing someone.
      Your dad seems to have networking conflated with nepotism… it’s really not the same. These days with online job applications, most openings get hundreds of applicants and it’s difficult for employers to thoroughly review everything. When I’m interested in a company I always check out my linked in network to see if I know someone, or if someone I know, knows someone. It’s literally just to ask them to put my resume in front of the hiring team. Not to go to bat for me, but just to make sure someone actually puts eyes on it. In my opinion, it makes all the difference. My current office, only one person was a random applicant. Every other person was known personally to someone already working here.

      1. JamieS*

        I don’t think the dad is the one conflating networking with nepotism since Stef is complaining about his side of the family not using their influence to get her a job. Since she didn’t mention any qualifications other than being related to them it sounds like she was trying to get them to engage in nepotism and the dad pushed back.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your dad is wrong for the most part. You have to know someone to get your foot in the door into clerical positions often times. I’ve seen your struggle through my friends who have a retail background, trying to get out of it. It’s a difficult jump to make from retail into clerical.

      It’s not necessarily knowing someone! It’s that you don’t have experience, which to get experience tends to mean someone needs to know you or be in a real pickle and willing to give a newbie a try. It’s hard and unfair and I hate it.

      I had to get patched in originally via a friend who had a sister who needed an accounting assistant.

      Can you get experience in clerical by trying to get in with a temp agency? They’re often so thirsty for temps, they will accept the fact that you have no clerical experience as long as you can pass their general computer programs testing.

    4. Qwerty*

      It sounds like you are saying that you want to be given the hospital job *because* you are family, which is nepotism and not a good hiring practice. Networking is not the same as nepotism.

      For most companies I’ve worked at, knowing someone at the company just meant that they would take a second look at your resume. Some places it will get you a phone interview, but at any ethical place it is still on you to impress the hiring manager and either meet their requirements or give them a reason to feel comfortable making an exception for you. For example, explaining that Skill A that you have is super close to Skill B which they require and the interview may not have realized they were equivalent.

      The few professional places I know where having an “in” resulted in getting hired meant there was something unethical going on, such as people telling their friends the interview questions/answers. This resulted in terrible teams and politics, because everything was based on who you know not actual skills.

      Rejection is hard. If you are struggling with accepting a rejection reason, try looking at it from the hiring manager’s perspective to see if it would give you a kinder light or something to learn for your next interview. For the place that required a smartphone, would you have been willing to upgrade your phone? For the place that wanted more experience than advertised, Alison mentions that not all requirements are in the listing, or requirements can change during the process, or they may have had a lot of candidates with more experience so they decided to just select from that group.

      When switching to a different field, sometimes a lateral move is really hard. Most people I know had to take a job that they felt was a step down from what they were looking for, because there are skills learned in those jobs that are needed for the ones they were aiming for. There can be nuances that a manager would expect you to know if you’d worked your way up from entry level that aren’t obvious if you step directly into the supervisor role.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Re-reading your post, I do want to reel you in a bit because I just saw your ” you don’t have front desk hotel experience so you don’t know how to charge credit cards to customers (which doesn’t make sense because don’t you just swipe the card?).”

      That’s really out of touch with what a job entails. You should know that a job is more than what you see on the outside as a client. There’s also dealing with the system, the booking/rebooking and backside work! Along with who knows what else, since I’m not in hospitality myself. So please don’t assume that a receptionist position for example is just sitting there, looking cute, answering a phone with a cheery voice!

      1. Colette*

        Yes, I think a lot of those reasons are likely based on legitimate concerns. If the front desk position is a night job (for example), there might not be the opportunity for a lot of training – so if an applicant says (basically) “how hard can it be?”, I’d be really concerned about their ability to learn in the time available.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          There’s also rules and regulations.

          You have to understand how not just charging a card works but how long it takes to issue a refund, if you can do a partial refund or if you have to refund the entire purchase and then recharge. etc. So many details involved and when you’re brand shiny new…you don’t always understand that kind of detail. And it’s hard to teach people and know they grasp the procedure itself.

          1. Colette*

            And what happens if it goes wrong (e.g. you don’t get an expected response, or the customer gets charged twice, or a million other things that I don’t know about because I don’t work in that world)? What are the different errors that can happen? What ways can the machine act flakily and how can you fix them? How do you pre-authorize a card without charging it?

      2. MatKnifeNinja*

        It could be how you interview also.

        My friend hired in for a front desk position, at an extremely bougie hotel in my area, with minimal background in anything hotel.

        But..he is extremely bright, friendly and is willing to hustle to learn. Sold himself hard during the interview, and was lucky to receive an offer.

        His personality smooths ruffled feathers. He can quickly deescalate a cranky, unhappy customer. Soft skills are harder to teach.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Absolutely, there are those human chameleons who can switch on their charisma when all else fails.

          I fell for someone like this once and it was tragic, they sold themselves hard on the hard working and willing to learn scale. I was like “Well you’re good with people and that’s part of the gig.” Goodness a front desk position would have been such a lower risk in that way so I would do it again in an instant for that setup but never again for a slightly higher one that I had been dealing with.

          It’s all about that hard sell and confidence issue to. The calm and collected vibe in a front desk position is often what you’re truly looking for in the end, so if you can sell it, they will buy it.

    6. Art3mis*

      Every job I’ve ever got was either 1. A mass hiring 2. Through a staffing firm or 3. Because I knew someone.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        All mine (I’ve been extremely lucky) have been someone let me use them as a reference, or I interview fairly well.

        This present job is because I knew something about the interviewer’s hobby, and they wanted to shoot the breeze for 10 mins about different types of origami paper.

        Life is a whole heap of random.

    7. Colette*

      That’s quite the variety of jobs! I’m also surprised that you’re hearing specific reasons about why you were rejected – that’s unusual, and yet you’ve listed a lot of reasons here. Are those actual quotes from the company, or are you guessing about why you were rejected?

      You also seem to think they aren’t legitimate but .. they seem reasonable to me. It’s a good idea for a manger to have some experience; if the sales organization has an app that you record sales in you do need a smartphone (although ideally they’d supply one); you’ve never worked in an office and you are likely up against people who have.

      How are you preparing for the interviews? Have you done some self-reflection about what you are good at and what you would like in a job?

      As Qwerty says, knowing someone might get your application looked at when it would otherwise be overlooked, but it’s not likely to guarantee you a job. And I’m a little concerned about your statement “except his family expects to have their feet kissed or they won’t do anything” – if you don’t have a good relationship with them (as it appears here), they’re not likely to want to help you out. And if you don’t think they aren’t good workers, having them recommend you will not help you.

    8. MatKnifeNinja*

      The jobs you are getting no call backs are pretty entry level. None of the skills needed don’t seem to be a huge time sink to train.

      How brutal is the job market and how are you interviewing? If there are people with MAs scrounging for bank teller positions, and front desk help jobs, the employer can be picky. Maybe the employers know the job market is crap, and they can hold out for the unicorn that needs no training.

      My state has help center for people who are unemployed. It might be worth your while to check what is offered for you. I know they have people who do mock interviews, and that is very useful information.

      Are these interviewers looking for unicorns, and you never had a chance?

      Are you doing something that is tanking the interview?

      It takes no mad skills learning to take credit cards and run them. I was taught over a two day period with no prior knowledge. It’s more than just swiping sometimes, but not horrible to learn. The smart phone requirement may be true for cold call sales position. I have a relative that manages a sale team, and “are you comfortable with a smart phone and know how to use it cold” is a requirement. People been cold calling forever, so you don’t truly need one. For the product his company sells, the smart phone makes everyone’s life easier. He has bent that requirement for an older sales person, because the guy is a total rockstar. My relative baby stepped him into learning the phone.

      Having some vouch for you on a job lead is extremely helpful. You become a know quantity in a sea of unknowns. But you can still tank an interview.

      I don’t know why your dad is being a bullhead. I’d fill out the hospital application, and put the relative down as a reference. But that’s me, and I don’t know what fall out you have to live with.

      You don’t need to know someone to get hired, but then your interviewing skills need to be on point.

      Where I live, small businesses have ads for clerical help needed on Craigslist. If you have minimal skills, this is a good way to worm your way into an office setting. My sister started working for a junk yard, where the office was a trailer. It qualified as “an office job”, then the temp place would hire her.

      Good luck! It’s awful when parents are can’t at least fake “hang in there”.

      ETA: I’m 55, and my father in the 1980s told me if you can get in for a job use it. Not all Boomer subscribe to the bootstrap theory of life. Had he had, his family would have never survived the Depression.

    9. NotAnotherManager!*

      I think it’s very location-, industry-, and company-dependent on whether or not you need an in. I hire about an average of dozen entry-level people a year (with this year being insane and a lot more from a big staff-up in a team whose business more than doubled), and, while we do accept referrals, that only gets you a courtesy phone screen. Thinking back over my hires this year, maybe 10% were referrals and only one was a must-hire-absent-serious-issues. The vast majority of them came through the normal application process – resume, HR screen, hiring manager interview.

      It sounds like you applications span a lot of different fields – have you considered temping to see where you might like to land, ultimately? That could help you make connections and get you office experience, assuming temping is a thing in your area. Some places also convert their temps to perm – we had an amazing temp that we converted to permanent about two weeks in because we didn’t want to lose her (and what was supposed to be a 2-month temp project is still going strong 36 months in… she leads it now).

    10. Kiwiii*

      Knowing people helps, but it’s not Always necessary. Can you look at doing temp or contract clerical work to get experience that way?

      1. Kiwiii*

        fwiw, my second job with a temp company I got placed somewhere that paid ~okay (with no benefits) but was really helpful in developing me into a useful office person, my experience with that job Definitely got me my last job (admin work, paid a bit better, really good benefits), which Definitely got me my current job (analyst dealing with the same populations as the admin work, paid a Lot better, almost as good benefits)

    11. ...*

      He’s not correct in that its the only way to get one. He may be correct in that it could help you get more or better jobs or get you something when you’re unemployed. I have found most of my work (15 years working) off of online job boards or postings. My first job at fast food my sister also worked there and I did work as my dad’s receptionist for a while. Both professional jobs I’ve had since moving to a larger city after college as well as a freelance job and a couple other interviews/offers came from job boards. I think it is very possible and you are just having bad luck.

  95. Mazzy*

    I’ve been wanting to ask – it’s comes up a few times here. I’ve seen people say you can make $100k as a technical writer by year five on here and Reddit. My question is, is this just a small minority humble bragging, or is this actually common in that field? I’m always skeptical when I see these comments because that would mean $10k a year raises for five years in a row for an entry level worker and that just seems highly, highly unlikely. Or am I just out of date and out of the loop, and this is actually a trend?

    1. Qwerty*

      I doubt any of the tech writers I’ve worked with are making that much. I think a lot of it is going to be based on how big the company is and what is the COL for that area. There’s also the question of what they did before switching to technical writing. Switching to tech writing after already establishing yourself as a writing an honing your craft would get you a higher starting salary than a college grad.

      I could see the free lancers we work with making that much because of all the normal reasons contractors get paid a premium (self-employment taxes, handling their own benefits, etc).

      I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but that it’s probably the more successful people posting. I did some searching because I was curious and the higher paid job postings for technical writers are for hybrid roles where they are also project managers. Even then they are below 100k. According to Glassdoor, the US national average for a technical writer with 5yrs experience is 60k. For 15+ years experience it is 77k.

    2. Mockingjay*

      I’ve been a tech writer for decades and no, you won’t make $100,000 by year five.

      I am paid very, very well for my area (cost of living) and industry (federal contracting, usually Cost Plus Fixed Fee which tends to constrain raises), but it’s still short of six figures. I am guessing that people who claim those salaries are not true tech writers, but engineers or techs with strong writing skills who have been designated as such to capture technical data. Also, they probably would have to have at least 10 years of experience. Unless in you are in a very expensive market like NYC or Silicon Valley, I don’t see a tech writer making six figures in half a decade.

      1. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

        Tech writers at my company can make ~$100k, but they are typically MS or PhD-level engineers or scientists who have career-changed into tech writing. I do think it’s very unusual, and not the way most companies hire or train technical writers.

  96. Anon for this*

    Yesterday boss introduced me to a job applicant touring the office as a “legal assistant slash paralegal”… news to me! I’ve been pushing for a promotion but getting the runaround wherein I’m told we don’t need another paralegal but I’m consistently doing the work of a paralegal.
    Can anyone give me a script on how to follow this up and try to pin him down with an official title change and all that entails? He’s a slippery one and rarely in the office…

    1. fposte*

      Can you ask him for a face to face meeting? “I know we’ve talked about this before, but at this point you’re even introducing me as a paralegal, so it seems like the office sees me as operating in that capacity. I’d like that to be officially reflected–how do we make it happen?”

    2. Nicole*

      Oh, that sucks.

      Set up a meeting (or ask for one if you don’t feel you’re in a position where you can schedule one). And then just be really direct in the meeting – since he obviously sees you as a paralegal, what is required to get the title change? Is there something specific he still needs to see you do in order to get that title?

  97. Gidget*

    I think this qualifies as work related (if not feel free to delete). The Hidden Brain Podcast did a show this week about BS Jobs and the toll it takes on people. I will link it in the reply.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I listened to that and thought it was an interesting idea, but I also felt like the author was taking glee in calling other people’s jobs BS when he probably didn’t know what they did. Maybe it’s because I’m a non-faculty staff member at a university (which seems to be his biggest target), but I actually found it pretty offensive that he would just write off whole categories of jobs because he personally didn’t understand their function or thought the company budget should be used differently.

      1. Gidget*

        I think this is a very reasonable critique of the thesis and the author’s attitudes. I read it a little differently about it being more on a societal scale, rather than specific job categories, as a critique of why we feel compelled to work even if we don’t value or see worth in our jobs. I think in some senses I appreciated it because the longer I work (am alive) the more skeptical I come about not only how the workforce is set up but also how higher education (or any education) is really in a way just priming us for more of this treadmill.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          That’s a good point, and perhaps the book itself goes into the culture of work we have in the US – as he pointed out in the podcast, we are as “productive” in 15 hours today as we were in 40 hours a few decades ago, so it does stand to reason that a lot of jobs have been created just to maintain the status quo of a 40 hour work week.

    3. Art3mis*

      I can’t listen to it at work, but just reading the blurb… I get it. I think what I do is meaningful at some level, but I also think that if I didn’t show up it wouldn’t be that big of a deal. I’m easily replaceable either by someone else with some training and a moderate ability to use a PC or if management was ever smart enough to hire a decent programmer, but a few lines of code. The thing that really irks me though is that I know I’m really not qualified to do anything else. Leaving would mean starting over at the bottom again both level and pay wise. I’ve tried applying to more challenging jobs and usually can’t even get an interview. Internally I’m told I’m smart and capable and could do anything, but the reality is that often jobs wants experience in something specific that I don’t have and can’t get in my current role. So I’m pretty well stuck and there’s not much I can do about it. I need a job to contribute to the bills.

    4. Mazzy*

      Oh I want to listen to this later. I read a blurb on this book elsewhere and I went from finding it valid to getting pissed off. His thesis has some validity but it’s a sliding scale. You could make his argument about most white collar jobs. Why not just get rid of everyone? Sure, your utility bill might have an error and there won’t be tellers at the bank and your delivery company won’t have customer service, and many websites will only have basic pages and content, but who cares, prices will be lower without those pesky people in the way.

      1. Lore*

        From what I remember about the book, it’s the opposite of jobs like bank tellers and customer service that he’s talking about–it’s much more the proliferation of layers of administrative management that serve as their own justification, and also the kind of positions that exist to make someone else feel more powerful (like a CEO who hires a phalanx of junior vice presidents so he has an entourage who agrees with him). He’s an anthropologist, not an economist, also, so he’s really looking at it as a cultural phenomenon, not an economic one (which is an approach with a lot of flaws, not least that most of the book is people self-reporting on their own jobs, it’s not in any way a scientific study). Still, where it’s really interesting is in unpicking the Puritan work ethic and the assumption that work is morally virtuous for its own sake, independent of the transactional value.

  98. K*

    My coworker came into work with the flu and was at my desk for about 15 minutes to talk about work stuff. I have a big trip next week and honestly would not like to get the flu. I just got my shot on Wednesday so its probably not effective yet. I wiped down the desk and chair with lysol and have sanitized my hands, and bought a bottle of orange juice. Am I doomed?

    1. Jamie*

      Not necessarily, but they should be.

      Keep your germs at home, people! And can we please make masks a cultural norm here in the US? I miss that SO much about the Japanese owned company I worked for briefly.

      Fingers crossed for you.

    3. bunniferous*

      Go to the health food store or a really well stocked grocery and buy some elderberry gummies (or whatever form they come in for purchase.) Those things WORK.

      Take about double the dose on the bottle they recommend for daily. (I have also bought the tonic directly from a supplier and that is what you do if you know you are exposed to illness.)

    4. flu-sharers*

      Possibly. Do vitamins help? That’s the only other thing I can think of.
      I feel for you- I’ve had coworkers say things like “Only my family has it, I don’t”, and “Did you get your flu shot?… with no follow up… I’ve lived through winters here where the whole office was sick, and no lysol or oj could fight that. Mind you, none of us are essential personnel. So, I wish you well!~

    5. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Gargle with a good mouthwash (in the UK it’s Listerine which claims to kill 99%+ of bacteria) at least morning and night. If any germs have got in, don’t let them take hold! Alternatively there are unpleasant OTC nasal sprays that do a similar job (in the UK would be First Defence).

      NB: the gargle is a very frothy procedure. I put a flannel over my open mouth to catch the bubbles.

    6. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

      You’re not doomed: even without the vaccine, not everyone that your coworker (or anyone else with the flu) spends time around will catch the flu from him. The CDC’s prevention advice (other than what you’ve already done, sanitizing your hands and getting the vaccine) is to take good care of yourself: get plenty of sleep, eat nutritious food, drink plenty of fluids, stay physically active, and manage stress. Some of these may be difficult, if you’re already nervous and possibly overworked, but nutritious food and staying hydrated should be doable.

      Orange juice is a fine idea, even though it won’t prevent the flu–staying hydrated is good, and that’s easier if you can drink things you like. Linus Pauling recommended vitamin C for several different things, including cold prevention, but not flu. (He appears to have been mistaken about those as well, but that could take us very far afield.) Orange juice is a good source of potassium, but that’s not relevant here either.

      If you do get sick, antiviral drugs aren’t magic, but they do help, especially if you take them as soon as you get sick. (In case you didn’t know, the CDC website with most of this information, and more, is flu.gov.)

  99. Asuwayda*

    Anyone here work in federal hiring?
    When the job posting says “cover letter optional,” and you send one in anyway, is it kind of a “it’s the thought that counts” type thing? Or would you assume someone actually reads it?
    I ask because I sent in the wrong letter *face palm

    1. yay november*

      I have been told Officially that unless every single applicant sends in a cover letter, they look at none of them. Now, the “they” there was HR, so maybe the hiring manager sees it? IDK. Kinda doubt it.

    3. BusinessBusinessBusinessNumbers*

      HR doesn’t use them to pre-screen but they’re passed along to the selecting official/hiring board. They’re in theory used as part of the resume review/screening for interview. In practice, my office only finds them relevant if a candidate left something off their resume but included it in the cover letter or if we’re on the fence on whether to interview and the candidate comes across as a very good fit. Generally speaking, my office views them as something that might help but can’t hurt. Even if the cover letter has typos or other errors, it hasn’t been a negative. The only time a cover letter counted against someone was where the candidate’s cover letter involved them advocating physical violence against broad categories of people. But other than that, the worst that happens with the cover letter is that it isn’t factored in decision making.

      As far as sending the wrong cover letter goes, I did that and was hired anyway so it can happen. In my case, I was hired for a development program when I sent in the cover letter that was supposed to go with my unrelated grad school application. My then boss said it made me memorable among the other applications and that since they didn’t do interviews for this position at the time, I was the only one who seemed like a real person. The rest of the board thought it was a little crazy but my resume had the necessary qualifications so they rolled with it.

      We’ve interviewed candidates who submitted the wrong cover letter and candidates brought it up during the “why interested in this job” portion of the interview. We didn’t select any of them, but that was because there were more qualified candidates both times. The wrong cover letter didn’t come up in any part of the discussion after the initial screening for interview. And again, at least at my office, the wrong cover letter wouldn’t keep you from an interview.

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        “HR doesn’t use them to pre-screen but they’re passed along to the selecting official/hiring board.”

        This does not happen at my large federal agency, unfortunately. I learned this directly from an HR rep when–before I applied for an internal opening–I asked whether it would be worth it to include a cover letter. I was told “You can include one, but the Hiring Manager will not see it.” She made no mention of whether HR would use it as a screening aid or not. If you’ve sent the wrong cover letter, it’s possible the Hiring Manager will never see it. So in future you might want to call ahead to the POC in the vacancy announcement to find out whether or not a cover letter will convey all the way through the process.

  100. Anonypissed*

    There’s a company that holds private recruiting events for tech companies which refers to the interview portion of the event as “speed-dating”. Let’s call them Llama Recruiters. Through my employer, we may be responsible for getting them to stop calling it that in their advertisements , but I’ve recently seen their internal template for the event agenda and the description for one of the talks is “explain speed-dating process”, so clearly they still think of it this way internally.

    Usually the client companies have no idea about any of this and is not allowed to be part of the advertising process. (Llama Recruiters appeal is that these are private, carefully curated events that only their members can go to. The “members” are mostly people whose emails were taken off LinkedIn and are wondering how they ended up on this list) The representatives for the client companies are usually getting their little interview stations set up when the candidates are given the speed-dating speech, so most of the time it goes unnoticed. The only reason I saw this template was because we were checking that they had stopped this practice.

    So, a lot of tech companies are getting a bad name because a problematic invitation is being sent out in their name. I almost boycotted the event at Teapot Tech because I saw the invite and added them to list of companies to avoid. When Llama Recruiters ignored all my emails trying to get them to address the speed-dating reference, I decided to show up at the event for Teapot Tech to address the issue in person. I failed at finding a Llama representative, but ended up in a good interview with a C-level executive who listened to me, was shocked at how that happened, and promised to follow up with Llama Recruiters. Their invites dropped the phrase shortly after, so I figured he was an ally and accepted the job at Teapot Tech.

    It’s been a year, and now Teapot Tech is doing another event with Llama Recruiters, but is insisting on being very hands on this time. Llama Recruiters is not happy about it, but that is how I found out Llama Recruiters still internally refer to interviews as speed dates. We seem to have stopped them from making any reference to dating at our next event, but I’m concerned that they are still pushing this theory and are one of the biggest tech recruiters in some areas of the US. I doubt our corrections to this event will have a long-term impact since it didn’t do much last time.

    My main concern is helping the women who are hearing this message – I made a lot of posts a year ago about how awful the tech field was and how I felt like I was doomed to always work in a sexist office. Constantly receiving invites for “speed dating” was part of why I felt like it would be impossible to find a decent job. How do I make a bigger impact on stopping ads like this? I doubt losing one client would make an impact, as they have expanded pretty far. I’m not big on publicly shaming a company (and don’t even really have a social media presence), but I don’t know how to get the word out about this bad practice. I’m starting to see it spread – now tech Meetup groups are calling their networking events “speed-dating”.

    1. Lady Catherine de Bourgh*

      I feel like I’m missing something. Is there something inherently sexist about the term “speed dating”?

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Also slightly confuzzed. Admittedly, I’ve never speed-date’d, but my understanding was that it was both men and women, one set sitting at tables, other set having 5 minutes and getting up and moving on every so often…?

        It’s not appropriate as a term for work stuff (they could easily just call it Quick Interviews or something), but I’m not getting the sexist aspect either.

    2. Colette*

      I think there’s a limit to how much influence you have over a company you don’t work for. I’d focus on asking Teapot Tech to reconsider using them – that’s really all you have influence over.

    3. Jamie*

      I’m unclear on your companies relationship with them. If you’re their client can’t you just not use their services if you feel it’s hurting your brand?

      And I’m missing what’s offensive about speed dating as an analogy?

    4. Holly*

      I try to stay attuned to problematic and sexist language, and I’m not sure I see what is offensive with the speed dating reference. I feel like it’s commonly used to explain a really quick informal interview with different people, like speed dating would be.

    5. Confused*

      I think even Alison sometimes refers to interviews in terms of “dating”. Not seeing the big deal here.

    6. Anonypissed*

      I’m surprised to hear so many people would be ok being invited to go on a date when they apply for an interview.

      For context, all of the interviewers were men at the event I attended. (I was hired as the only female manager for developers). So the power dynamics of a man with possible control of my career seeing our conversation as date translates to me as he will be judging based on his romantic preferences rather than my professional skills. There’s a huge trend in the area of men inviting women to interviews or mentoring sessions as a way to trick them into a date.

      Tech is notorious for sexual harassment and many companies I’ve worked at has seen women as sexual objects first and coworkers second. The only men I’ve heard refer to interviews as dates in official communication were the managers who were trying to sleep with me and marked my performance reviews based on if I dressed sexy enough. As one of my friends said when she speed dating on the official agenda “That sounds like they are just advertising that they plan to harass you”. (I was one of two women to show up. The other left the moment they announced it was time to start speed dating)

      1. Lady Catherine de Bourgh*

        Wait, what? There is actual romantic dating involved here? I understood it as “speed dating” in that a candidate spend 5-10 minutes with each company for a mini interview, then moves on to the next (so a speed dating model). But are you saying there is some sort of romantic component here?? I am super confused now.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        It sounds like Llama Recruiters are using “speed dating” as a cutesy term for quick 5-10 minute interviews with a variety of interviewers, and that the problem is the “date” framing is being used for an industry rife with sexism issues. The result is that the interviewers are conducting interviews with (female) applicants with these sexual overtones. (Are they the Tinder of recruiting?)

        It is probably not a universal interpretation but also not a good look, for sure. There are other descriptors that convey “short get to know you sessions” without tying it to dating. However, it’s unlikely to change unless more companies withdraw or request that the framing be changed to something less sexually charged.

      3. fhqwhgads*

        I think it’s that most people understand that it’s NOT a “date”. The term “speed dating” refers to a particular type of a set up – that yes did start as a method used by dating services – but can just as easily apply to interviews. No one thinks they’re literally being asked to go on a date. It’s a shorthand for the format of the interview – that it will mimic the model done with actual speed-dating.
        I hear what you’re saying about gender imbalance in the industry and sexism in general, but I just don’t see a correlation between use of the analogy “speed dating” for a series of rapid-fire interviews with built-in time limits and all the harassment and sexist issues. The term just strikes me as a shorthand for explaining this particular format, and it communicates the format in a lot fewer words. I’m not saying no one should ever push back on problematic idioms, but this is not a hill I’d die on and it’s also not one I find especially offensive. I’m a female software engineer btw, if that matters.

  101. Environmental Compliance*

    It’s been 1 week since Problem Operator was let go.

    We have had the first week in 7ish weeks that we have not had a violation. Our probes have behaved for a full week – before it was an at least once daily occurrence that they’d somehow go weird. We have not been flooded with random maintenance requests. I have not had to call the County at all this whole week. In fact, everyone seems in a better mood overall.

    We have operators that we are training (one was already in training for night shift, one is stepping in for day shift), and they are doing so, so great.

    Apparently my boss attempted to block the firing, so that’s…. not cool. However, HR vetoed their veto, and then Head Corporate found out and reamed Boss a new one.

  102. Matilda Jefferies*

    I have some questions about open plan/ flexible seating workplaces. My office is moving to one in the next couple of years – exact specs are all TBD, but what is confirmed is that there won’t necessarily be a desk for everyone, and most people won’t have a space they can call “their” desk.

    I’m trusting that the logistics will be sorted out, and there will be places for coats and wet umbrellas and files and so on. But how do people create a sense of “place” in an environment like this? Most of us spend more awake time at work than at home, and the pictures of our kids and other personal touches are important. Also, the things that go up on your office walls – things like calendars, quick reference documents, etc. Do they just all live on your computer? Are you expected to haul everything to your locker every night and set it all back up again every morning? Lots of people also have things like snacks, toothbrushes and menstrual products, extra shoes, etc. I can certainly see the argument for having *less* personal space, but none at all? I just can’t picture how it will work.

    I would imagine there’s a risk of people ignoring the rules and just camping out in their preferred space; and also a risk of those higher in the org chart always getting the best spaces regardless of whatever talk about flexibility and equality and so on. There are all kind of ways of circumventing the rules!

    But how does it work, when it actually works? Assuming people are generally following the rules, and the spaces really are flexible and without assigned seating – how do people feel about that? Do people like it, or can they learn to like it as they get used to it?

    1. Jamie*

      What is the benefit of not having individual desks? I know this is often used for people who aren’t in the office much (sales, field reps, etc) who just camp on an available computer but this sounds like you have people who will be in the office everyday (judging by what they’d want to store in a workspace.)

      My sympathies, this sounds like a total nightmare to me. I left a good job for this one and open space was a major reason, although not the only one. And that was open space with my own desk.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        The benefits are a workspace that is Agile! Flexible! Modern!

        Um, so…I don’t actually know. Management has been very proficient with their use of buzzwords and the benefits to the organization, but hasn’t said a thing about the benefits to the individual, or what the environment will actually be like when there are 500+ people in this flexible space. It’s early days yet, and there is a dedicated change management team involved in the move, so there may be some proper communications to come. But all we have at the moment are rumours, and they’re not exactly reassuring.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            Yep, all the other descriptions are masking this very specific and usually only applicable one.

            I just found out one of my company’s buildings went to hot decking. All hotelling desks with lockers for the people assigned to the building (but not, apparently, a desk). I was aghast.

    2. Colette*

      I assume the snacks, hygiene products, shoes, etc. will live in the locker – but I have similar concerns. I like having my environment be mine.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        When I worked at place that had lockers + given workstations (a 24hr building, so you’d share the desk with the opposite shift), all the snacks, etc went in lockers. So no decorations though :(

        1. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

          Several of the floors in my building (not my floor, thank goodness) are open concept, and there are indeed lockers at each work station. However, they look really inadequate to me. They’d be OK when the weather is warm, but to get my special extra-poofy coat for sub-zero days stuffed into one of those things, I’d have to use some sort of large-size tamper or something.

          And yeah, no personal stuff is allowed on desks at all.

  103. AnonymousRN*

    I’m a looking for suggestions/info/empathy/ideas/advice about working in the midst of union contract negotiations. I’ve not had to deal with this in prior jobs, and I’m finding it disheartening how unhelpful & derogatory management is acting towards their employees right now. I have my bachelor’s, I work with critically ill patients and it takes a lot of high level soft skills & technical skills to be a good nurse with this population. I am frequently working amidst staffing shortages, medication shortages, equipment shortages (I hate playing round robin with IV poles or vitals carts) and still keeping a smile on my face, a pleasant & calm demeanor for my patients and remembering all I need to do & getting it done in a timely manner. Management is doing its best (it seems) to cast us as greedy slackers, all their proposals want to cut our compensation by significant amounts and increase our patient ratios & contributions to our benefits. We live in a high COL area, the education & certifications of our nurses is a huge boon for the region. Hiring new nurses is expensive & increases risk levels, just because there is so much to learn, so obviously KEEPING people long term would be a better financial strategy (they offer hiring bonuses but don’t want to increase pay-wut) The C-suite is taking million dollars bonuses, but wants us to contribute to charity campaigns to buy our own medical equipment. My direct manager is great, my boss-boss is awful. I don’t want to leave, although I recognize that might be my only option. And I don’t want to strike, but will if they give us a $#%+ contract- I’m happy with my salary, but the PTO isn’t enough to stay home when I’m sick AND maintain a work-life balance, and if there is still a planet when I retire, I would like the opportunity to have a decent amount set aside.

    It’s so discouraging to keep working, feeling that my employers undervalue me so much.

    1. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      Solidarity! That sounds awful. I haven’t been in my union long enough to have any bargaining experience so I don’t have any advice, but I will cross my fingers that you get a good contract without having to strike!

      1. sequined histories*

        Focus on the fact that you work for the patients and not the bosses and continue to do the best you can for them under the circumstances for as long as you are still at work. If you go out on strike, remind yourself that without nurses having a voice and decent working conditions in our hospitals, our health care system will definitely deteriorate, so even in striking you’re standing up for your future and current patients as well as yourselves.
        It’s funny how rich people wanting more money laudable, but working people wanting better pay is evidence of greed and sloth.

  104. shoe covers?*

    Does anyone else work in a place that requires shoe covers? What is your take on the systems that help you put on the shoe covers on for you (automatic bootie machine)? Are these useful or do they just take up space/break down easily? We have regular staff who have dedicated shoes for the facility, but about 2-3 people a week who need to put on shoe covers daily and about 20 people who come through on a yearly basis. Thoughts?

    1. Jaid*

      I think it’s an awesome idea. Amazon has a couple machines under a 100.00 so you can try it out and then decide if you need a more expensive brand.

    2. Emilitron*

      I didn’t know those things existed and now I really want one! The number of times I am trying to go through our lab door holding an object and am trying to do the little shoe cover dance one-handed…

    3. shoe covers?*

      I didn’t know cheaper ones existed! I might look into those first. My initial thought was it was kind of unnecessary but we have regular visitors now whereas before we didn’t.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      That would have been so helpful and probably promoted more adherence to the rule at my children’s daycare – the baby room had a bootie rule and of course every parent has a diaper bag and usually a car seat, so hands free bootie application would have been a dream!

      Also great for realtors showing houses with a no shoes rule.

  105. Lady Catherine de Bourgh*

    How many times would you let a candidate reschedule an interview before cutting them? First she rescheduled a couple days ahead of time before the interview because her husband had to leave and couldn’t stay with her kids. So we set a new time. Then she asked to reschedule that one too because of a family emergency and she has to go out of town.

    So, is this a bad sign that she’s already having childcare issues? Or should I give her another chance?

    1. fposte*

      Those both seem pretty plausible, and only one is childcare. If she gave appropriate notice and I still was able to fit her into my interviewing window, I’d still interview her. I’d ask references specific questions about reliability if that was important to the job you’re hiring for.

      And generally, the lower-paid the field, the less likely somebody is to be able to deal with childcare issues at short notice, so I’d keep that in mind as well.

    2. Rey*

      I think you would weigh what your organization needs at this point. Was she a top candidate and you don’t want to move forward until you can interview her and get more information? If she’s middle of the pack and you don’t want to wait for her to be back in town, then I think it’s pretty reasonable to move forward with other candidates. (And in some ways, I feel like she shared too much information by talking about childcare and family emergency before she had even interviewed with you, but I think you’ll want solid documentation if you don’t move her forward, in case she claims bad hiring practices.)

      1. WellRed*

        I agree with all of this. Maybe it’s just my experience with people that ALWAYS seem to have SOMETHING come up. Unfair, I know. I’d probably give her another shot and really assess her qualities during the interview. Qualifications

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Ad hoc childcare is a different beast than regular scheduled childcare.

      AND it sounds like she’s on top of the ad hoc — she called days in advance to reschedule due to childcare. And family emergencies can happen to anyone.

      Give her the interview for goodness sakes!

    4. Combinatorialist*

      I agree it depends on how strong of a candidate she is. But I wouldn’t worry too much about childcare issues. If she currently is the primary caregiver for her children, then arranging short term, one-off childcare is a lot different than arranging regular, childcare.

    5. Lady Catherine de Bourgh*

      She’s a so-so candidate. Not in my first tier of selections but still good enough that I thought it would be worth talking to her.

      It’s a middle-range position – not six figures but not minimum wage either. The first time I thought it was no big deal, and I’m sympathetic to childcare issues. But for two things to come up in the same week, I’m kind of like hmmm is this a red flag?

      I’ll probably go ahead and talk to her. Thanks for the feedback!

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Honestly, if she has to reschedule a job interview twice for personal issues, it sounds like (a) she has an abnormally high number of personal issues, and/or (b) she has an insufficient support system. I wouldn’t use it as the only reason not to interview her, but if last-minute call-outs are going to be problematic in the actual job, it would be hard for me to ignore this. Because if she *does* need to be there on a more regular basis, and she can’t do that, you’re not doing her any favors if you hire her.

        1. Silver Radicand*

          I agree that this should be factored into the hiring decision if the position if this sort of ad-hoc rescheduling would be problematic in the actual job. That being said, I think it’d probably still be worth interviewing.

          The times I’ve done rescheduled interviews, there was a pretty sharp divide with either the person ghosting the rescheduled interview or them ending up being just fine and satisfactory to the job, and their conscientiousness came through during the interview, but I hire blue collar workers, so YMMV.

  106. Blue Eagle*

    STINKY BATHROOM
    In case this is a problem for you (or your workplace) you might want to check out a product called Plop Star that was featured on last week’s Shark Tank show.
    The way it works is you plop a tablet in the bowl before you do your business and it reacts with the water to form a “scent screen” across the top so any smell that is in the bowl does not escape through the top.
    After reading all of the AAM comments about this type of smell problem at the workplace, this might be a potential solution. Disclaimer: I haven’t checked it out but the folks on Shark Tank seemed to think it was a really good idea.

    1. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      This is basically poo-pourri in a different format, right? Is there an advantage to the tablets?

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        If you’re not going to leave a supply in the bathroom, I assume a tablet would be easier to carry with you.

        1. Jamie*

          That’s a huge improvement. You can’t leave the bottles of spray in there unless the company is paying because they’re expensive.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        It doesn’t lodge in the toilet, it’s a tablet that you drop in each time rather than a spray.

          1. Joielle*

            That would be awesome if there were one that would stay in the toilet, though! Like those big tablet things that you clip to the side of the bowl and they slowly disintegrate with each flush. Would be so much easier than remembering to bring something with you each time.

  107. Raia*

    6 months into my job, learning SQL and data reporting/visualization tools with no corporate training, and I feel like I should have figured out my job by now. This is my first data role, is it normal to (still) feel like this at the 6 month mark or should I be questioning if the role is a good fit?

    1. Forkeater*

      I use a lot of the same skills/tools and think six months is not much time to teach yourself that! Are there fund available for training? Anyone else there who can mentor you?

    2. merp*

      When I started a data viz job similarly with no training, I was in the same boat. Take heart! It’s a lot to learn!

    3. Raia*

      Ah okay its just my impostor syndrome then. 0 funds for training and losing a lot of personnel around here, so idk where I’d get a mentor. It is a lot to learn and have no frame of reference to know if I’m learning at a good pace or not.

    4. [Cloaking Device Engaged]*

      My last two jobs, I felt like an utter noob for the first 12 months.
      Hang in there.

    5. flemily*

      100% normal to feel still unsure on aspects of a job, especially a data centered job with the number of different data tools available and you’re teaching yourself.

  108. Cat Fan*

    Tell Susan to bring concerns about her co-workers to you to deal with, and that she shouldn’t be addressing them herself.

  109. Agent Smith*

    I had a phone interview and the interviewer called way earlier than the scheduled time. So when I answered I was not expecting her at all — I thought it was maybe the recruiter who set it up. She asked if I would prefer she call back at the scheduled time and I asked if she would. (I was set up but just wanted to get my headphones!)

    At the end of the interview, she said she would definitely put me for an in person interview.

    The recruiter called me today and said they cut me from the candidate pool because I seemed confused when she called!!! I was confused!!!!! I’ve had — I don’t know — 100 phone interviews in my life and not once has someone called me early (and then rejected me for not knowing who it was!!!!)!

    Djajsheikshsjakdjejwksjd

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      Think of it this way- Would you want to work for a place that treats you like that? I wouldn’t. You dodged a bullet.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      That’s completely ridiculous! Once I had an interviewer call an hour early (time zone confusion) and it was literally as I was getting out of the shower – so I got to talk to the recruiter buck naked, dripping wet, in a dark bathroom (the light was connected to the fan so I had to turn it off to hear the phone call). I must have done ok because we went through the interview just fine, and he sent me an email about 15 minutes later, incredibly apologetic about getting the time wrong.

      I agree with the other commenter, this is a blessing in disguise – these are not people you want to work with.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      I had an interview like that earlier this year. All the phone interviews went well and then it came time to set up the in person. The company used a 3rd party agency and they gave me a list of times the company had provided. One time was absolutely perfect for me so I selected that time and the recruiter verbally confirmed.
      I never got the email confirmation so I reached back out a couple of days later just in case. She told me that she sent the confirmation to them and as soon as they accept it will generate my confirmation. Well they declined. She called back with a few more times, I select, and then the same thing happens. 4 times this happens and I finally end up getting an interview time slot almost a full week after the original time that was really inconvenient for me.
      I go to the interview and everything seems good until the hiring manager, the one who kept changing the schedule, asks if I would be able to come back later in the week if they wanted to talk again. Unfortunately that wasn’t possible so I said that I could make a phone or video call work but due to the distance and my workload that week I wouldn’t be able to take more time off during the work day. After hours would be possible though. He said it was unlikely a follow up would be needed but sometimes the (remote) VP liked to talk to candidates before hiring was official.
      Next day I get a call from the recruiter that they were moving forward with other candidates “due to my limited availability”.
      Livid is an understatement considering the hoops they made me jump through.

    5. consultinerd*

      As everyone else said–bullet dodged. I had probably a couple dozen phone screens/interviews the last time I was job hunting and a lot of them were in the middle of a workday where I’d leave ‘for lunch’, ‘to run to the bank’, ‘for a dentist appointment’ etc. and take the call from my car. If the interviewer called me an hour early while I was at my open plan office desk, in a meeting, or whatever else, I’d be pretty pissed.

  110. OtterB*

    Moving to open plan office in the next 6 months.

    We’re renovating our office space and going from private offices to – they don’t call them cubicles – I think it’s work stations. Pods? Anyway…

    Everyone will have their own assigned desk. They’re getting sit-stand desks for everyone. We will have several small conference room/ group work areas in addition to our big conference room, which we don’t have now, so that will be nice. Our work culture is such that it’s common to wfh, so not everyone will be in the office every day anyway.

    And I hate it. Can’t tell you how much I hate it. But it’s going to happen, and I need to not whine. I will get used to it, or I will significantly step up my wfh. I am about 4 years from retirement and have zero desire to find a new job (and honestly, there are many, many great things about this one).

    I don’t think it’s been determined yet how work stations will be assigned. IMO some are more desirable than others. If I knew I would be in one of the spaces with less traffic, I would feel better.

    No advice needed, really. Just venting.

    1. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

      Ugh. I feel for you. They’ve gone to open plan offices in several of the floors of the building that I work it, and I live in fear that my floor will be next.

  111. Blueberry Girl*

    I’m two months into a new job. There’s a lot of excitement that I’m here and everyone has been very supportive. However, I’m struggling to develop concrete measurable goals and that’s causing me a lot of defuse anxiety. I’m in a higher level position than I’ve ever been in before and I am the most qualified person in my position, so I think I lack people I can really ask for guidance. Is there language I can use to talk to my boss about this? She’s set some very broad goals and I need smaller more precise ones. I know some of this maybe my responsibility, but when I set goals, she says, “Oh, that’s great.” And then that’s it and I don’t know- what if it isn’t great?

    1. Nicole*

      What about just asking her if she has some time to talk about the milestones working up to your larger goals, to make sure they meet her expectations and make sense to her?

      You’ll have to come up with some ideas prior to the meeting, but you won’t have to have it all fleshed out. Then you can talk to her and figure out the rest together. You also might find some areas where she has specific things in mind already and just needed you to prompt her to tell you about them.

  112. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    Nothing huge – like AT ALL. But I am thrilled. I got my boss and grandboss to change one of the stupidest processes we have. It’s going to save us a boatload of time. I’ve been pushing for it for a while, so I’m just stupid excited that it’s changing!

    1. Marie*

      Right on! Good for you. Now you can use all that “extra” time to come up with other positive ideas for your company lol

    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      This is the sort of thing that makes me happiest at work – like someone else finally realized how dumb and inefficient something was and did something about it. Inefficiency bugs the crap out of me, and I struggle to deal with processes that include it in a productive manner.

  113. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

    So … we have a new Big Boss. Great guy. Cares about making things better, which sometimes moves peoples cheese a bit so there’s some grumbling, but ultimately someone who should maintain dignity and authority.

    Problem is … a certain percentage of his pants fit such that a substantial percentage of his “package” is quite … evident.

    It is embarrassing and a bit mortifying, and we can’t figure out how to bring it up. Not having this particular type of package, I just don’t even know what to say. And it seems that the pants are not leaving the normal rotation, so the longer this goes, the worse it gets.

    I know the solution is probably to just drop the simplest of words at the end of a day with a request to never speak of it again. But alas, no one will volunteer to enter the fray.

    1. Kendra*

      What? If I’m understanding you right you’re asking, what do I do about my bosses pants being tight? Uhhhh… nothing?

    2. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      I feel like the best plan is actually just to learn to ignore it. I don’t think there’s a good way to bring this up, and professional norms mean not paying attention to coworkers’ bodies.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t think I’d plan to mention it at all; I’d just find other things to look at. If people can’t acknowledge his authority because of his pants, the problem isn’t with the pants.

    4. Blueberry Girl*

      Does he have an admin who is trusted? Or someone else he works with very closely who could quietly mention it and then promise to never speak of it again?

    6. annony*

      This is a lot like the letter where the guy was distracted by his coworkers low cut shirts. Unless you are his boss and it’s really egregious, say nothing and try not to look.

    7. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I once submitted an anonymous note (I used the customer comment form) about this, but that was because the man in question was a) public facing and b) the customers were Definitely Starting to Notice and nudge-gesturepoint-giggle about it.

      Either the comment was not passed to him, or he chose to ignore it, which is fine with me. I just thought if I was accidentally showing too much I’d want a heads up (no pun intended.)

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        The giggle thing is really the problem.

        I don’t think he’s public facing enough to try the customer comment strategy, but I’m definitely leaning toward the quick mention/run away and never mention it approach.

        Unfortunately, I often am the person in any setting who takes it on to address the elephant in the room, and I just don’t want to talk about this specific elephant…

    8. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

      I agree with other commenters. You just have to learn not to look – which is actually good advice for most of your coworkers, really. It (not looking, that is) really becomes second nature once you get accustomed to it.

    9. Recreational Moderation*

      Wasn’t there a similar situation on a Friends episode? Phoebe’s date kept wearing shorts that exposed his parts? Problem was resolved when Gunther, in passing, said something about it (I seem to recall the words “keep the mouse in its house”).

      This isn’t exactly the same, of course, but maybe someone close to Big Boss’s level could casually ask, “Say, Boss, were you aware that [something that doesn’t involve mouses or houses, but I’m not sure what]”? Or, I don’t know, maybe Gunther makes office visits.

      1. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

        Welllllll….but there’s a difference between literally exposing private parts and simply wearing pants that are a bit too tight or a blouse that someone look down if they happen to be in the right position. If someone’s penis or breast somehow escapes one’s clothing, yeah, that needs to be addressed. But if it’s just that certain clothing accentuates a particular physical feature at certain times, the solution is to just not look. It’s not difficult to look a coworker in the face rather than at his/her crotch or breasts.

    10. JamieS*

      Instead of words I suggest that you slowly and lasciviously look your boss over making sure to noticeably pause when you get to his “package” and lick your lips. That’s sure to get the conversation started.

      Alternatively you could just ignore it and not try to discuss your boss’s genitals.

  114. Kendra*

    I changed my name recently, legally. The social security office knows, the state knows, etc.

    I get rejected from a background check because my ssn doesn’t match my name. What?????????? I mean I have a bank account under my name, I’m renting under my name, my drivers license is my name.

    I mean this happens so often, esp for recently-married women, you would think this wouldn’t be an issue. I don’t understand why these private background companies would have access to my personal data anyway.

    1. Okay*

      If the social security office knows, then your SSN should match your name. Did you get a new social security card with your new name and same number? If not, maybe something went awry at the SS office.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      If the change is recent, it’s possible that it’s a public records issue. During the first few months after the change, I had a bear of a time with things like opening new accounts, because the public records check was a standard security measure a lot of places used, and it takes a bit for public records to get up to date.

    4. CAA*

      Pull your credit reports and make sure all your loans and credit cards that are reporting against your SSN are using your new name.

      Also, there should be a way to challenge the failed background check. If you had a job offer pulled because of this, ask the employer what is their process for correcting things when their background checking company provides them with invalid information.

    5. Ali G*

      Ugh same thing happened to me. They couldn’t verify my diploma because the names didn’t match. Yeah well sometime between my 23rd and 40th birthdays I got married! Why would you try to verify my married name??
      It’s annoying but I am sure you can get it sorted out.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There’s a gap between the SSA getting your information and processing your information.

      ALSO! Make sure to check all their GD information now that you’ve changed your name. My mother’s birthdate was screwed up in the transition when she had her name changed. She only recently realized it when paying closer attention to some documents she got. Thankfully it was easy to change but it will screw up your life when you draw SS or if heaven forbid you need to file for disability.

      So I bet that it’s that stupid sweet spot that’s doing it.

      They’re searching databases that are open for the public searching though, so it’s not like they’re really digging into your personal data. They’re looking up criminal records is the key.

      We always ask for former names anyways for this reason. So they dropped the ball if they only got your current name.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          YUCK, what a bunch of armatures. I’m sorry! But I should have guessed that much, since it’s more likely that the document missed that information than you forgetting to fill it in.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Seconding on check all their info — the last time I got mine changed, I was supposed to be going from Firstname (Middlename Maidenname) O’Lastname, with two middle names, to Firstname Middlename Maidenname-Marriedname, with one middle name and moving my maiden name back to the posterior position. Despite explaining this four times and presenting the appropriate documentation, she changed it to Firstname (Middlename Maidenname) Marriedname and I had to make an entire second trip back to get it sorted out.

    7. NotAnotherManager!*

      I changed my name legally a number of years ago, and I provided a copy of my updated SSA card and the name-change court order for about the first year while all the system synched up. It’s been a while since I filled out a background check authorization, but most of the ones I’ve seen ask about prior names, so I always fill that out or proactively tell the person checking about my previous name. It’s been two decades and still crops up at weird and unexpected times.

      When I got married, I told my husband I was keeping my name because I’d worked so hard to get it to what I wanted it to be AND I wasn’t going through all that bullshit, hoop-jumping again. I am lazy.

    8. Margaret*

      How recently was the change? Different context, but I work in taxes, and we frequently have issues matching changes made within the past few months – we have to match IRS records for an e-filed return to go through, and though they sync with the SSA records it seems like it takes a few months. I’m unclear how/why this is, like it appears that they only sync up at certain points during the year or something. So even if the “primary” sources like SSA and state DMV know, it might take longer for the change to filter through to other agencies.

  115. Faith*

    I wanted to give my shoutout to Allison for helping me improve my resume game. I rewrote my resume in accordance with her recommendations several years ago (which got me my current job), and I’ve been updating it the same way ever since. I recently had an interview with the company that reached out to me via LinkedIn. I ended up interviewing and eventually turning down the role, but the Hiring Manager’s boss who also interviewed me commented on how well my resume highlighted one particular set of skills, and that’s what made me such a strong candidate. They even reached out to me after I withdrew my candidacy to tell me about another role that was going to open up soon in a related field that might be of interest to me because they really wanted to get me on board. Really happy to know that my resume seems to be doing its job well.

  116. Nicole*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m looking for advice on recovering from a really stressful period/partial burnout. I had a project that just completed, and it was an incredibly stressful time. I was working tons of hours and just incredibly stressed the whole time. Now that it’s over, my hours are more normal, but I’m having trouble being as productive as usual. I still feel that overwhelmed and stressed out when I look at my to-do list, even though it is back to being more reasonable. Things that should take me one day take me two, and I find myself avoiding certain more stressful tasks. It’s especially bad when it comes to phone calls or in-person communication where I know there is the potential for the conversation to be difficult. I find myself thinking about all the ways it could go wrong and avoiding it for several days.

    I think my brain is just stuck still feeling “overwhelmed”, but I don’t know how to un-stick it. Any advice?

    1. Jamie*

      You need to take some time off and really decompress. Even if it’s a couple of long weekends.

      I have been in your shoes many times and ignored it so long I hit major burn out and it’s been a year and a half and I’m just now beginning to bounce back. I so regret not taking time for self-care before I hit the wall.

      In the meantime, knocking off some smaller, easier projects if you have any can help you feel productive while giving your brain a little break.

      If thinking about work outside of work in an issue for you force yourself to stop. I would give myself 10 minutes after I got home for work talk, but by the time I was in something comfy with some iced tea working on dinner I’d redirect if my thoughts went to work. (Due to my position I still had my phone on me at all times so if there was an emergency I’d deal with – I’m talking about breaking the causal thought patterns.)

      Your comment resonates with me as the avoidance of certain tasks was new to me and I now know it’s one of my main tells when things are bad for me.

      Take the time and pamper yourself. Don’t deal with any more stress in your personal life than you need to, don’t see aggravating people, indulge yourself in little treats and rest and it can really help you reboot your brain.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Me too! Now that I don’t have the crushing weight of a stressful project pushing me along I can’t seem to just settle down and do the day-to-day work. I will be monitoring this thread for ideas.

  117. FuzzFrogs*

    We are transitioning to Volgistics for tracking the hours of our volunteers (public library) and I feel like crying my eyes out. I, personally, over see something like 15% of our several hundred volunteers, and I have been doing my absolute level best to get them in the system and get us running properly, but a THIRD of them had issues in one way or another. There is only one person who has admin-level access that we’re allowed to go to with issues–she’s a temp filling in for the overall volunteer coordinator because that position is vacant. (This is our second temp; to be fair, the first temp was apparently supposed to completely handle all of this, so second temp got a fun surprise in her first week when she asked us how using Volgistics/Victouch was going and we all said “we…wouldn’t know? we’re not using it?”)

    Just to illustrate: I have two volunteers who are brothers: let’s call the older Biggolo and the younger Piccolo. They have very similar, East Asian names, only different by two letters. Biggolo has been volunteering for over a year, Piccolo for a year plus. I could have sworn on my grave that both Biggolo and Piccolo showed on the listing I can see in the software for my volunteers. We finally get the system in this week, we’re told to go live Saturday–I check and, among many, many other issues, Biggolo has disappeared. This is a simplified version of our conversation.

    TEMP: Here are the code numbers for your volunteers! Let me know if you’re having any issues.
    ME: [Replies with all of my problems, mostly focusing on one issue, but also:] Biggolo is on this. He’s disappeared from my online list. Piccolo is on my online list but you didn’t give me a number for him.
    TEMP: Have found Biggolo. He is now active and on your list.
    ME: Cool. How about a number for Piccolo?
    TEMP: [gives me the same number as Biggolo, which I missed because I’ve already spent three hours on the many other issues we’re having]
    ME, next day: Hey, so I still don’t have Biggolo on my list. Also these two other kids.
    TEMP: Biggolo and the other kids never filled out the proper application. Please have him fill it out. He can’t volunteer until he fills it out.
    ME: What? You told me you’d made him active yesterday. Also, you gave me numbers for all these kids like they had. ALSO, weeks ago when we discussed who hadn’t filled out an app, you mentioned two names and neither were Biggolo. Or the other kids. Here are all the numbers.
    TEMP: Wait, I’m confused.
    ME: [politely proves that she’s given me all the evidence that they’re in the system, but that they’re just not on my listing. This is my fifth time explaining this]
    TEMP: Can you see [other kids with Biggolo’s issue]?
    ME: Yes! Amazing! Now where’s Biggolo? Here’s the number again.
    TEMP: That’s Piccolo’s number.
    ME: Ah, so I see! I didn’t catch that. But, uh, you gave it to me as Biggolo’s number first, several days ago; and then yesterday you said it was Piccolo’s number. Here’s a screenshot of when you did that. Also, please, again, see previous e-mail where you told me BIGGOLO HAD AN APPLICATION IN AND YOU’D FIXED IT AND IT’S NOT FIXED.
    TEMP: Oh, that was always Piccolo’s number, I must have made a typo. Biggolo never applied. Make him apply. He cannot volunteer if he hasn’t applied.

    Can you tell why I’m going crazy? I really, really want to formally complain about this, but there’s also some issues we’ve been having that come down to my shitty memory–I’m worried that if I pull all this out she’s going to defend herself by saying I’ve been blaming her for my mistakes. (I have circumstantial evidence that I made the proper checks to get 14 new kids in the system; she insists they’re not and if they were, it would’ve been an issue between me and first temp, so I guess I messed up. Despite double-checking three or four times since then. I just don’t know what’s real anymore.)

    1. FuzzFrogs*

      Uh, so…I guess the good thing about ranting about it here was that I realized that, as bad as it is, I’m definitely letting it freak me out way more than I need to. I’m just….frustrated. I have a learning disability, and I’ve lived a lot of my life desperately attempting to not be confused. It stresses me the heck out when stuff gets really weird and confusing in a workplace setting, and when I can’t really tell either way what the real solution is and whether my own issues contributed.

      1. Deloris Van Cartier*

        No real advice but I used volgistics at my previous job and had to transition my org to a new database while I’ve been here so I feel your pain! Any new system takes a lot of time to get use to so I’m sure it will come together at some point but it does take more time than it seems like it should.

  118. zora*

    JOB SEARCH ACCOUNTABILITY THREAD

    Sorry I’m late getting this up! Post below any actions you took to get that NEW JOB this week!
    Also feel free to vent if you need moral support.

    2. wingmaster*

      I got a job offer earlier this week! I have to give my response by today.
      I still have other final rounds of interviews to wrap up, but they are not scheduled for the next couple of weeks. So I’m in an interesting situation, since the other companies are not able to speed up the process. I will still continue to interview…because I do like the potential of the other companies, but since I only have offer in my hand…I’ll probably accept and understand that bridges may be burned…

    3. littlelizard*

      I got an interview to something pretty good I applied to, but 1) I didn’t read it closely enough and it’s part-time, and 2) it’s not in what I studied for, more along the lines of what I’m working in now. The second part bothers me because the plan was always to keep looking for [college field] work while building up a decent job history in [current field] in case I stayed in it and this ended up being career-relevant. I feel like if I am offered this job I will feel very torn and will have Feelings about it regardless of what I choose. It’s sad.

    4. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      Ugh I’m getting job search burnout. I’ve been searching for a year to no avail. I decided to take a little bit of a break from applications and focus on professional development, which makes me feel more fulfilled. I signed up for a month long weekly class. I also started working on a paper for a conference. I’ve also been going to more networking events. It fulfills my need to socialize while giving me a break from applying.

  119. Traveler*

    I was recently diagnosed with moderate sleep apnea and got a C-PAP machine. It’s not so bad. It’s quiet, and the machine is fairly small.

    But I fly for work several times a year (sometimes alone, sometimes with coworkers). I have TSA Pre-Check. Does anyone have tips for traveling with a C-PAP machine, especially dealing with the TSA? I’m also a private person and don’t want to deal with questions from colleagues. I know C-PAP usage is common, but I want to be discreet and just go about my business without people wanting to know what’s up with that medical device case.

    2. Art3mis*

      Domestically a CPAP machine isn’t considered a carry on and you don’t have to check it. They can’t make you gate check it either. I have no idea how international flights work on this topic though. I haven’t had a problem the few times I’ve flown with TSA knowing what it is. I’ve had to take it out of the bag, but I’ve been told by other folks that TSA shouldn’t require this since it’s a CPAP machine, so I’m not sure what’s right there. I’m not sure if the pre-check thing allows you to not take it out of the bag or not. As for being discreet, if you wanted to you could get a travel CPAP which is smaller. The only issue with those is that your insurance is likely not to pay for it if they are paying for your primary insurance. If I traveled more I’d probably invest in one just for size and convenience. If someone asks you could just say “It’s a CPAP” and leave it at that.

      1. Traveler*

        My machine is pretty small and has a detachable humidifier, so I don’t think I’ll need a separate machine. If the machine my doctor ordered had been larger/cumbersome, then I would have explored getting a travel machine.

        I have read up on traveling with a C-PAP, and a lot of people have recommended placing the tubing and mask in clear plastic bags. I’m not a germaphobe, but I don’t exactly look forward to TSA staff handling my C-PAP stuff.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I put my mask in a plastic box (google “really useful box”) to protect it in my suitcase. I don’t worry about the tubing – I doubt anyone’s going to stick their fingers inside the tube.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        I’ve had to actually take it out of the bag, plug it in, and turn it on. But that was a few years ago.

    3. Rick Tq*

      I have a CPAP and travel without any problems. I have 4 TSA-approve size bottles in a clear zipper pouch to carry distilled water for the humidifier and that goes on the belt separately. CPAPs are a dime a dozen now they just go thru the X-ray like everything else, and I rarely even get asked what it is any more.

      Your CPAP is a carry-on in addition to the normal two items so don’t stress that side of it, I put mine in the overhead bin when boarding.

      1. Traveler*

        To my pleasant surprise, the machine my doctor ordered has a detachable humidifier. I haven’t even been using the humidifier, and so far the machine hasn’t dried me out. That had been a concern of mine–either traveling with distilled water or trying to find distilled water on a business trip.

        1. Ineffecient Cat Herder*

          You can use tap water for travel, it is better not to use it for regular use though because of build-up.

    4. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I don’t but I used to fly frequently with my boss who did. He carried it on along with his normal carry-ons (suitcase + “personal item”) and if TSA ever told him he had too many bags he just said it was a medical device.

      I completely understand wanting privacy, but a quick “medical device” or “it’s a CPAP” should solve the problem. Try not to act squirrelly or like you’re hiding something, that could get you singled out for special security!

      1. Traveler*

        Thanks. I don’t care if the TSA knows what it is, but I’d rather my coworkers and/or manager didn’t know my business. And I’m always chill at security so I can go through without any issues.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          If it helps, I only overheard him because he’s very loud and it was a TINY airport. Depending on where you fly out of, you should have the option to go into a different TSA line than your coworkers – maybe try to be the last one of your group to have your boarding pass checked and then don’t follow them to the same TSA line? Of course, you might have to have the same conversation with the gate agent as you’re boarding but perhaps you could try not to immediately follow your coworkers. Whenever I’ve flown with coworkers we all had different boarding groups based on airline priority and seating arrangement.

          Honestly though, unless your colleagues are children or ogres they’ll pretend not to hear anything about a medical device.

      2. Fikly*

        TSA being TSA, I have had them give me crap about my CPAP being an extra bag, even though honestly, it’s the airline’s call. I have literally had to shove it in another carry on to make it be two bags total.

        But it’s the TSA, what power did I have if I wanted to make my flight?

    5. Construction Safety*

      Well, mine fits in my 24″ Tumi roller. It also came with a “TSA Letter” that I’ve never actually had to use.

    6. Ineffecient Cat Herder*

      I have a tiny travel cpap. The work travel is tough. You can hand the TSA person a little card that says you want a private screening, but that seems to draw even more attention to myself. I have always had to take the machine itself (not mask and tubing etc) out for screening, I keep it in a ziplock to keep it clean.

      I have mostly just tried to separate myself from my colleagues going through TSA :(

    7. noahwynn*

      I don’t have a CPAP, but work for an airline.

      For TSA, the CPAP can stay in its case or if it is small enough even in your carry-on bag if you have PreCheck. Without PreCheck it is treaded like a laptop, remove from your suitcase and send it through on it’s own.

      At the gate, during boarding, the agent may ask what it is, especially if it is shaped similar to an oxygen concentrator, which some CPAP devices are. The reason for this is two-fold. First, the agents are tasked with limiting the amount of bags onboard to one personal item and one carryon bag. This is a regulation, and if caught not enforcing it the airline can be fined and the agent disciplined. Second, portable oxygen concentrators have special rules for bringing them onboard, and if it looks at all similar to one many agents will ask.

      1. peanut*

        Yes, this has been my experience flying with a CPAP. My CPAP came with its own carrying case, so I put it in that. I don’t have TSA preflight, so I leave the cpap in its bag and send it through the xray like that. Have never been asked to take it out of its own bag, have only once been asked what it is and I just said it was a medical device.

        I tried once to put the cpap in its own bag, and then put that bag in my carry-on suitcase to go through the xray as it was easier to hold, but I got stopped and had to take the cpap bag out to go through by itself. I just stick it back in my suitcase once I’m through security.

    8. Notthemomma*

      I travel with mine frequently. I put mine in a 2 gallon ziplock bag within the travel bag and another bag for the humidifier. This for those rare times I had to take it out- I don’t want it to touch the conveyer someone’s shoes were on!!! I normally pass on housekeeping, but if it’s a longer stay I will put the setup in the plastic bag to ensure it isn’t touched. I know of someone who puts it in the fridge when not in use to avoid possibility of contamination, but that may be a bit excessive.

      The travel bag fits inside the roller bag I use for a laptop bag. The cpap is a medical device and does not count as a carryon. I do suggest packing an extension cord as sometimes the hotel outlets are too far from the bed. I also buy a couple bottles of water for the humidifier.

  120. Sriracha Anony Mouse*

    Anon for reasons….
    I’m a Buttons government contractor working on the 2nd floor. Project involves collaboration with Lancelot from 5th floor contractors of Tailor company. Yesterday, Lancelot lured me upstairs for a private chat and encouraged me to apply for one of the many Tailor company openings for Detective Analyst. (Read: his small 50-person company is trying to poach me from a 1000-person company).

    If that weren’t awkward enough, my supervisor (Buttons company) wants me to collaborate on another project with Lancelot once a week. Lancelot’s trying to poach me.

    Do I….
    A. Tell Supervisor that Lancelot’s company is trying to poach me?
    B. Not say anything
    C. Tell Supervisor, but only after performance reviews and bonuses come out mid-November?

    FWIW, I love my benefits package currently (100% 401k matching up to 7%), though the pace is lots slower than I’d like; depending on a proposal I *might* get a super cool project end of this month plus a business trip but no guarantee. The Tailor Company doesn’t have a matching 401k program at all, and no parental leave, worse job title, but cooler projects. Spouse and I would be trying for kids late next year.

    Tl;dr: Lancelot trying to lure me in with cooler tasks but my job has better benefits/quality of life even though the cool job aspects might be a month away….

      1. Nicole*

        Sorry. I realize this was too short! You don’t want it to sound like you’re using someone to try to poach you to impact your compensation at your company, or to sound like a threat that you might leave.

        It sounds like it is worth talking to your boss though. Lancelot wanted to poach you for a reason- talk through with your boss the ways you’ve been performing well, and then talk about where you’d like the position to go. If you want fast paced work, as for it! There’s no guarantee you’ll get it, but no harm in asking. Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too!

    2. CAA*

      This happens all the time, it’s just business. And actually, it would be a big problem (i.e. illegal) if his company and your company had a “no poaching” policy. No need to say anything to your supervisor and no need for it to be awkward working with Lancelot in the future. Just be flattered that Lancelot thinks you do a good job and would be an asset to his company. Tell him you’ve thought about it and thanks for thinking of you, but you’re happy staying where you are for now. No further explanation is needed.

      If he’s a normal person, that’ll be the end of it. If he’s not normal and he persists in bugging you about it, you’ll need to get more assertive and tell him to please stop asking because he’s making things awkward for you. If that still doesn’t stop it, then you can talk to your supervisor. But unless you really need your supervisor to intervene on your behalf, this is something you should handle on your own.

  121. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from Not the Hellmouth! It has been quite a week. On Wednesday I finally got my start date for the state position (yay!) so I have given my notice (yay!) and after today I have only 8 working days left here. It was the first time in recent memory that I have actually felt bad about giving notice—it’s an inconvenient time for the office (the assistant manager is out indefinitely due to some heartbreaking family matters, so it has been just me and the manager running things—a second leasing consultant was supposed to start this week but that may not work out, as she has given some possibly bogus excuses for not coming in on her start date and appears to maybe be ghosting), and while I have definitely come to hate property management I definitely do NOT hate my boss or my coworkers. I feel bad about possibly leaving them jammed up. My boss was extremely nice when I gave notice, though (also a first for me, previous bosses have been truly terrible when notice time came), and no one has been angry or ugly. I was extremely stressed out about doing it, so the actual notice giving being extremely anti-climactic was great. No yelling, no frostiness, no piling on of work or demeaning “audits” of my work/time sheets immediately afterwards. Just warm congratulations and general professionalism, Huzzah!  

    It has not all been sunshine and lollipops, though. The week has been rife with what I have come to think of as “rich people antics”, and the day that I gave notice a maintenance worker was bitten by a juvenile copperhead (a scaryass pit viper). In the middle of a concrete breezeway for one of the apartment buildings. Next to a toddler at play. Fortunately (over 22 anti-venom treatments later) she is okay, although we are all very worried that there may be more of them around. And if you were wondering what a juvenile copperhead looks like, I am here to tell you, it looks like EVIL. They’re probably here to avenge poor Dan the Harmless Water Snake. Needless to say, I am wearing boots and treading very carefully when I am outside.  But as long as I get through the next 8.5 workdays unbitten, I am HOME FREE. Yay!

    1. Emily*

      Congratulations!!!

      I’m so pleased that you have your start date, gave notice, and your coworkers were great about it! Hooray!

      *picture a MASSIVE bunch of party popper emojis, flower bouquets, and sparkly star emojis here!*

    2. Emily*

      BTW, I hope you’re successful at avoiding the evil snakes!
      Eek, that’s like a scary Halloween surprise. Glad your colleague is all right.

    3. Happy Lurker*

      I really enjoy hearing your updates. Congratulations on a perfectly nice normal notice meeting with your boss as well as your start date. Yikes on the snakes!

    4. MicrobioChic*

      Congrats!

      Yay for non-toxic work places!

      Also getting bitten by a juvenile copperhead is extra scary because they can’t control the amount of venom they put into a bite, so bits from juveniles are more dangerous. May your large boots protect you!

    8. Construction Safety*

      Congrats!

      Odd time of year for juvie snakes, prolly escaped from one of the units. LOL

    9. WoodswomanWrites*

      Fabulous news that you are not only on your way to your new job but are exiting so smoothly!

      Sorry to hear about the snake and your co-worker. I once had to grab the hand of someone just inches from picking up a baby rattler. He was going to move it so it wouldn’t get stepped on because he thought it was its harmless look-alike, a gopher snake. The juveniles often don’t have visible rattles yet. Phew.

    10. Drew*

      I am doing the Kermit flail and the Snoopy dance for you! (Yes, simultaneously!)

      Hoping your almost-former coworker makes a full recovery. Venomous snakes are scary (where I live, all four major North American varieties can be found, and my Nextdoor has pretty frequent pictures of “look what just slithered up in my yard”) but the majority of them will leave you alone if you don’t crowd them or try to handle them. Very glad it didn’t bite the toddler.

    13. Mimmy*

      Wonderful news about the new job and that your notice went smoothly. Also glad that your coworker is okay. You deserve this after everything you went through in your previous job!!

  122. Do I really want to do this?*

    Has anyone had success setting up a technical competence team? Like many companies we struggle with documentation and communication, and a lot of knowledge isn’t fully documented or shared properly. My manager wants me to set up technical competence team to help share knowledge. In theory I think it it a good idea, but my I don’t have clear objectives and no one is assigned to it as a resource so I am making very little progress. If you have done something like this, what worked or didn’t work for you?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I think you need to consider four issues. First, what, particularly do you need to communicate about: processes, how to use specialized software programs, rules or rules-of-thumb, something else? Make a list of these needs.

      Second, what tools do you have for communicating, such as wikis, blogs, web-pages, ordinary texts, pictures, diagrams, learning management systems like Moodle, etc. Do your research – there’s a lot of good stuff out there.

      Third, who needs to issue communication about particular technologies and who needs to receive that communication? Liz beta-tests new versions of the specialized in-house software. Maybe she can write a manual? Greg is a pretty good artist, maybe he can help with ‘rule of thumb’ pictures.

      Fourth, what tools for communicating match with what communication need? You end up with things like “The rule of thumb about our specialized in-house software needs a picture. The instructions for our specialized in-house software should be in a wiki. The source-code for the specialized internal software needs a Git repository.”

      I think you should go back to your boss for clearer guidance. You should also consult with your colleagues about what they need to know/have known. A really good idea would be to hook up with a new hire and see what they’re having trouble with.

    2. Gumby*

      One thing we have done is set up a weekly meeting for technical staff where each week one person gives a short timed presentation on a technical topic (10 mins). Then there is a 2 minute Q&A period. We stick to the time limits pretty rigorously – the timer goes off and people will start applauding even if the presenter is in the middle of a sentence – but politely, it’s expected. Inevitably, there are people who hang around after the meeting to chat more if the topic was of interest to them. It’s not one team in charge of gathering all of the info; it is everyone sharing info across projects. There might be a way to customize that for your purposes.

  123. Sincerely Thanks*

    Is it strange to always end emails with “thank you” and “sincerely”? I’m from an immigrant family and learned a lot of my US workplace customs and etiquette from either watching it on media or following my supervisors/coworkers actions. I always try ro err on the side of politeness than being too casual since I’m always the youngest and newest in the office.

    Now I’m working in a conservative field (finance) and sometimes have to email clients and other employees in different departments. I thought it would be OK to write “thank you” and ending emails with “sincerely” but now I’m worried of being seen as “weird” after reading a few posts on this site…

    1. fposte*

      Email culture is highly variable. My workplace is huge on “Thanks!”, but even here “Sincerely” would be a bit formal. However, you presumably receive emails as well as get them–what signoffs do people use? Just track with what seems to be usual practice there and you should be fine.

      1. Sincerely Thanks*

        It’s been a mixed bag from what I see. Clients send us typo-filled emails and sometimes don’t even write anything (since we care mostly about the pdfs). While people from my company range from my level of politeness to “k thnx” which is why I was confused…

        If I wanted to tone down the politeness, would it be better to keep the “thank you” and change the sign off? Such as:

        Hi She-Ra,

        I don’t see the stamp on the documents you sent me. Please revise them and resend them. Thank you.

        [Insert name here]
        Llama Officier

        1. fposte*

          That would be fine in my workplace. I think that in general in American email you want to avoid email being an exact replica of a letter, so “Hi” is better than “Dear” and a “Thank you” in the last sentence is better than a “Sincerely” signoff.

        2. Parenthetically*

          “If I wanted to tone down the politeness”

          I wouldn’t say you’re toning down the politeness, just adjusting the formality! For an external email to a client, I’d say:

          Hi She-Ra,

          I don’t see the stamp on the documents you sent me. Can you please revise and resend? Thank you!

          Lucy Parenthetically-Brackets
          Llama Accounts Receivable

          For an internal email I might adjust it to:

          Looks like the stamp is missing on these, can you resend with the stamps included? Thanks!

          Lucy

          1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

            Yes, this kind of email is less like a replacement for a business letter and more like a replacement for a post-it stuck on a document you’re returning for revision. Just like it would have been odd to type up a formal letter for this kind of request in 1980, and it would be odd to sign a post-it “Sincerely,” the digital version can also be more casual. It’s still polite, though; it just sounds more like the way you’d say it aloud if you were asking in person.

    2. Janet, Sower of Chaos*

      I think “sincerely” is too formal for most emails but there’s no problem with “thank you.” But I mostly think you should copy what your colleagues do, since it varies by office, and maybe ask someone explicitly since it sounds like you’re new to the field. If there’s a different custom eg for emailing clients vs internally, you might not be able to pick up on it from emails you receive.

    3. Nicole*

      I use “Thank you” or “Regards” depending on how formal I want to be- and based on what I have seen other people do.

      Thank you should be pretty safe.

    4. Beancounter Eric*

      A couple of things:

      1. Know your audience.

      2. Be YOU.

      If you want to conclude with “Sincerely”, go ahead. Yes, it’s more formal……so what?

      One of our senior people ends with “Kind Regards”…..I’m all over the place with email conclusions – “thank you”, “best regards”, “Cheers!!”……And what’s wrong with being a bit “weird”???

      And that’s from a middle-aged, very conservative Accountant.

    5. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      Try to match their message, when possible (if it’s a reply), but otherwise, do what feels normal to you! I’ve never gotten an overly formal OR very casual email and thought “this person is weird” (unless they’re emailing me something weird). I’ve just thought that they have a specific email personality.

      Email culture is weird, no matter what field you work in.

      My boss use to write “Best,” which I liked – it bordered formal and casual, without saying thanks twice in the same email.

      1. Windchime*

        My newish colleague uses “Best” and I like it. I usually do something like this:

        Hi Kelly,
        Here is the latest draft of the report. Please take a look at your convenience and let me know if you have questions or concerns. Thanks!

        Windchime

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      “Sincerely” is something you’re taught in formal writing class as a kid [at least once upon a time when I was a child.] So I always think of it as formal. I use it when I’m angry with someone to be curt but professional but that’s a weird “Becky is petty” thing.

      Usually we go with “Regards” Or “Best Regards” if you like the person these days.

      But really, thank you and sincerely are both standard stuff and may read a little stiff but not over the top.

      I go with with the tone of whomever I’m responding to in that way. But if I’m starting out, I try to go with a slight casual tone because that way it’s less brisk to the recipient. Even in conservative fields, I know only very few that are very much the “Dear Ms. Y, I will need you to send the documents to my attention. Yours Sincerely, Ms. X” It’s best to say “Hello Sally, I will need you to send the documents to my attention. Thank you, Becky.”

    7. Kiwiii*

      I end every email with “thanks” or “thank you”. It’s more of a habit than an actual thanks, and my job is mostly help-desk related so my persona is meant to seem polite. I think you’re fine with a thanks or thank you, i wouldn’t do sincerely except for maybe during a job search?

      A lot of figuring out stuff like this can be mirroring yourself after the coworkers who seem to be successful or have good reputations.

  124. Forkeater*

    Anyone ever left a good job after a short time?

    I do have a stint that appears on my resume where I was at a job less than a year – this was ten years ago, though. I knew from the elevator ride up on day one that that job was not a good fit, and hated everyday I was there.

    But this is different. My job is very good in, frankly, every way. I love the work and my boss, I have a great commute, I’m paid well and the benefits are excellent. But I recently applied for a few positions, and had an excellent phone screen with one last week. Same work, similar commute and benefits, much better pay. It’s an overall environmental difference I’m looking for. The companies are in the same industry but the culture is very, very different. Current company is “cutting edge” and very small and new, potential new company is traditional and established and older. I’ve had a kind of rough year personally, and the security of the more established company is very appealing to me. And the money would help cover some new financial obligations that have popped up this year. But I’m not sure that’s a good reason to leave so soon.

    Anyone with a similar story?

    *This is not really the reason – but I posted a few weeks ago about problems with my employee, and while I do feel supported and that things are gradually improving, I have reason to believe new company would offer a better team environment that I have here.

    1. Marie*

      I wouldn’t find one short employment to be odd, especially with an otherwise strong employment history and if during interview it was explained that the company wasn’t a good fit and it took that long to find new employment. Good luck in your decision, sounds like it will be great either way.

    2. Forkeater*

      Just to clarify – I’ve been in my current, good job less than a year. And I did have a separate incident ten years ago where I stayed in a job less than a year.

      1. Kiwiii*

        I don’t think it’ll look strange at all. Especially if all your other stints since have been good, 2+ years stretches and/or big position changes. Sometimes opportunities come along that you just can’t pass up and almost everyone will be understanding of that.

        I have a friend with about three 1-2 year stints in a row (first place was entry level and she nearly doubled her salary going to place 2, place 3 wanted to double her salary again and promote her, place 3 ended up being crazy town so she left for a small pay drop — and it was only really during the last job hunt where they started making “can’t sit still” comments)

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is in the back of my head these days only because we’re in a transition phase and I’m thinking about the possibility of a new boss coming in. In reality, it’s not going to be very smart or normal to come in and make waves, since we’re only changing leadership because my boss is working long-long-long ways from home and never was going to stay forever. He did all the wave making and getting things in tiptop shape, so it should be an easy handover and anyone smart will see a “not broke, don’t fix it.”

      Really changing jobs doesn’t have to be about the fact the job sucks or you capped out on what you can do there! It can be a personal reason. You want a new culture. The security thing is huge [however I have to tell you that I’ve seen very well established businesses crumble, despite their facade of being strong and thriving, unless you’re in finance, you never ever know about their real stability, not to scare you but something to remind yourself so you’re not lulled into false security.]

      The thing to think about is that you get a one off, short term job only every so often. Once every 10 years is pretty solid track record that won’t cause many people to pause. But this next move, you will need to commit to!

  125. Careless Whispering*

    My boss sometimes whispers curses or has long drawn out sighs… and it’s kind of causing me anxiety? My boss sits right behind my small cubicle and our office is so quiet that I can hear him making frustrated noises almost every day for multiple hours. Any tips on how to handle this?

    1. Nicole*

      I would recommend headphones. It sounds like your boss is trying not to be disruptive by whispering, so I think that trying to find a way to make it not bother you is a better approach than making is his problem.

      That being said…if he is constantly doing this for hours…it might be worth addressing. Is this a swear periodically within a several hour period, or is it non-stop?

      1. Careless Whispering*

        Thankfully its not non-stop but I hear his whispering throughout the day. It gives me anxiety since I end up worrying that my actions might be causing him yo react in frustration (my boss directly oversees my work but also has his own stuff to do).

        I’ll try bringing up whether I can use headphones but I’m worried that I’ll stand out since no one else in the office wears them.

        1. Nicole*

          Unless he is a terrible boss, the swearing isn’t about you, or he would have let you know there were problems with your performance. Think about all the things that frustrate you in a day – computer issues, your own typos, urgent requests from upper management etc.

          Is there anything specific that makes you think his swearing is related to you?

        2. Emily*

          I’m not sure if this would work for you, but:

          I use my computer speakers to play very quiet white noise, on days when I don’t want to get distracted by my coworkers talking. It helps me concentrate and focus on my work.

          I use this YouTube video (link below) — it’s 10 hours long, so it can last through the workday. Just keep your browser window minimized. Personally, I’ve found that I can set the speaker volume really low, and it still helps drown out noises. (I turn off the speakers when I leave for my lunch break, by the way.)

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRyp5SvXjpI

      2. Jadelyn*

        Headphones. My former manager is a mutterer – while she’s working on things, she’s always muttering under her breath – reading something off a list out loud, things like that. She was in the shared office with me and two other people the other day working on something with one of my coworkers, and doing her muttering while I was trying to focus on a report. I lasted all of 90 seconds before grabbing my headphones from my drawer and putting them on.

        Oddly, it helped me focus and I got way more done, so I left them on even after she went back to her own office. 10/10, do recommend.

  126. Danger Will Robinson?*

    I wanted to thank everyone who commented on my post last week (yea or nay) and I wanted to let you know I ended up turning the offer down. Surprisingly, it was one of the hardest times for me to say no. But everything in my gut was pointing to it not being the right fit for me and this time. I could see my health going down the drain and my health is not great already. I think it was the right choice, but damn. The fame of the person and losing that famous star struck ness was hard. At least I can say I got an offer from them. I think I’ve been afraid turning it down would ruin my career, but after reading yalls comments, I think I’ll be just fine. Thank you.

    1. Emily*

      I didn’t see your post last week, but judging from what you wrote here, it sounds like you made the right decision!

      Good luck.

    2. Sherm*

      As someone who has worked for *two* “famous” people, I can tell you — not worth it! Your gut is something to be listened to, especially when it is quite insistent.

  127. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    We were just sent a company-wide email (fortune 200 company) that all “health breaks” will cease and employees need to get re-authorization for any medically necessary accommodations, including medical documentation. It’s being done to address coverage issues (and won’t impact me at all, as I’m not in that type of role) but yikes. It feels rather draconian. Is this is a thing that other companies are doing?

    See below for text from HR:
    What is a “health break”
    These are short breaks in addition to the two paid 15-minute rest periods and one unpaid 30-minute
    meal period employees are afforded each day (breaks may vary depending on state-specific laws), for
    employees with an approved medical need. Health breaks were originally crafted and managed at the
    local/site level (with varying practices and parameters). We have heard from our leaders that the
    current usage of health breaks has reached a critical mass and is now creating impacts to our service
    delivery capacity….

    All current health breaks will cease November 4, 2019. If affected employees still have a legitimate
    medical need and anticipate needing approximately 30 minutes or more of medically-necessary breaks
    per day, they will be afforded 30 calendar days from the effective date listed above to request a
    reasonable accommodation and obtain any necessary medical certification. … This is, however, not a guarantee that a reasonable accommodation will be
    approved.

    1. fposte*

      I’ve never heard of “health breaks” and don’t know how they’d work, but it seems to me their new policy is pretty standard–if you need more than the usual breaks, that needs to be as a request for reasonable accommodation. I don’t see that the language necessarily requires recertification for somebody who’s already formally requested an accommodation, but obviously if I were somebody affected I’d check that to be sure.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I didn’t post the entire email. All current approvals go through a local-level process. Those approvals have all been rescinded as of Monday and new requests need to be made through a new corporate process that is centralized. Previously you could just request accommodation from your boss (e.g. I need to use the bathroom more frequently than most people.) Now you have to get a doctor’s not stating you have a medical need, etc. I guess it’s more of the change that feels draconian to me, especially because I think the majority of what they are trying to curtail is bathroom use.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, I should have guessed that “health” was a euphemism. I’m not clear what that means if you need *under* 30 minutes extra for bathroom breaks, or how often it has to happen before you’re running into the policy, but yes, that does seem an unnecessarily bureaucratic approach. I’m almost always going to be in favor of lower-impact, greater-agency-for-managers arrangements rather than formally putting your swollen prostate on the company record, and since this is probably about people playing on their phones in the bathroom that’s all the more reason to deal with it through a local manager.

        2. CrookedLily*

          They should probably make sure they’re complying with OSHA rules. I’ve researched bathroom rights before, and from what I remember, placing time limits on bathroom use was prohibited because of varying medical needs. And this being separate from the ADA, no special accommodation requests are needed for OSHA protections to apply.

          1. fposte*

            OSHA simply says that “unreasonable restrictions” can’t be employed. This doesn’t sound like that unreasonable a restriction, assuming the odd bout of last night’s vindaloo wouldn’t lead to a disciplinary measure.

        1. WellRed*

          I wonder about pumping breaks, as well as needing to take a break to treat low blood sugar. I do think it sounds draconian.

    3. Blarg*

      I enjoy “not a guarantee that a reasonable accommodation will be approved.”

      Pretty sure the term “reasonable accommodation” is used when the accommodation is … reasonable.

      This email reads as “please, sue us.”

    4. The New Wanderer*

      “Not a guarantee that a reasonable accommodations will be approved” – IANAL but doesn’t a company have to approve a reasonable accommodation?

      Also I first read this as people were abusing “health breaks” like taking a mental break from working to surf the web or have an extended coffee break, not using the bathroom more the three allotted break times per day. Policing bathroom use and requiring medical exemptions for particular needs are draconian policies.

  128. Candid Candidate*

    My husband and I recently started trying to get pregnant for the first time. It’s still very early in the process and we’re excited about the future, but the stress of trying and then waiting and then finding out I’m still not pregnant has been hard to deal with. I was in wall-to-wall meetings the other day when I realized I was, once again, not pregnant this month so I was already in a bad mood when a client representative sent an email to my team asking a question I’ve already answered for her several times. I may have blown up a bit when we discussed it. Nothing serious, but the sarcastic rant wasn’t very professional and I could tell that my coworkers thought I was being a bit dramatic, although they were kind and supportive of my point (this client rep is consistently annoying). I wish I could tell them why I was so on edge that day, but we just don’t have that kind of relationship, and even so, letting your coworkers know you’re trying to get pregnant isn’t a great idea. I’m ten years into my career so it’s not like I haven’t known how hard it is to be a woman in the workplace, but this is a new level of hard for me personally, and I wish I could handle it better. Shoutout to all the women out there in the same boat.

    2. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      I’ve been there. I found it super surreal that this huge, huge thing was going on in my personal life that virtually no one knew about. (The feeling continued once I did get pregnant, too, until we were ready to actually tell people.) If it would make you feel better, you could tell your coworkers something like, “I’m sorry I went a bit overboard talking about Client X the other day. I’d been dealing with some stressful personal stuff and was on edge already when I got her email.”

      You’ll get through this. Hang in there.

    3. blink14*

      I can come at this from a traumatic life event perspective – there was a suicide in my family, and both the suicide and my relationship with that person were very complicated, and thus producing a lot of rage on my end.

      I did a couple of things when I came back to work (it actually happened during a planned long weekend, and I was able to extend my time off by a few days). I told my boss what happened, and I told one other person that I’m close to at work what happened. I did this more because I knew I was not myself and wouldn’t be for a long time.

      About a week later, a co-worker who was already wearing me thin prior to this event asked a big favor and I snapped on them. I bad afterwards, apologized, and let them know I was going through through this post traumatic event stress. I then made a distinction for myself, and kept myself on that hard line – I would not allow my anger and grief come in to play at work to that level again. I struggled for months just getting to work and living my daily life, but I actually found that work became a really good distraction for me, and I let myself feel all the pain when I left for the day, but those 8 hours at work I shut down that part of my mind as best I could and let work take over.

        1. blink14*

          Thank you. It’s not something I want to ever experience again, but it did give me a lot of insight into the aftermath of that type of event, and how to deal with it on a personal level.

      2. Candid Candidate*

        I’m so sorry for your loss, blink14. The thing I didn’t mention in my original comment is that my mother died of cancer when I was 24 and just starting my career. She was very sick in the months leading up to her death, and having to Act Normal And Functional at work was extremely hard – before and after her death. So I can relate. I guess the thing that’s different about this whole trying-to-get-pregnant situation is that I’m afraid to say anything to anyone. My workplace *says* they’re progressive and supportive of new parents, my boss *seems* like a reasonable and ethical person, my coworkers *seem* helpful and understanding, but I just don’t know how much of that facade of support I can trust if I do something unconventional, like mention my family plans before I’m actually pregnant. At least when my mom was dying I didn’t have to pretend like my world wasn’t falling apart.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      I know this will be really hard to do but it worked for us:

      Just stop “trying”

      My husband and I hit the sweet spot of age, income, flexibility and decided we were ready and went full tilt into GET PREGNANT mode. After a couple of months we were burned out from trying. We decided to take a break from trying and just lived our lives again (which for me meant wine with dinner and coffee) but not using any protection. After a couple of weeks we felt better and started talking about our next steps. We decided to wait until after my next period and use one of those apps so get a general idea of when the right time was and be a little more active during those times but not go back to our previous level of trying.
      Except my period never came.
      Once the stress and frustration was off things just happened naturally.
      I know several people who tried for years with no luck and adopted a child and a few of them got pregnant naturally within a year after the adoption. My friend also got pregnant when they finally gave up on having a family.
      I think the stress we place on ourselves and the wealth of knowledge of fertility issues can have seriously negative consequences on our bodies.

      Obviously this won’t work for everyone but, barring any medical issues, I think it can help mentally and physically.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Are you really saying “just relax?”

        Please don’t. It is literally once of the WORST things you can say to someone trying to get pregnant.

      2. VelociraptorAttack*

        Please, please, please do not say this to someone who is trying to get pregnant and stressed about it not happening. It’s not helpful, it minimizes their feelings about it, it’s all around problematic.

      3. Marzipan*

        Can I gently suggest that ‘just relax’ and ‘it will happen when you stop worrying about it’ type sentiments have the potential to be quite upsetting to people?

        OP is early in their journey of trying to conceive, so questions of infertility aren’t really in play for them at this point – and I hope they won’t need to be. But even still, there’s ample evidence that a great many people in the world become pregnant in spite of being in incredibly stressful situations. These kinds of sentiments suggest the idea that OP is somehow impeding pregnancy by thinking about it too much, which I don’t think is helpful or accurate.

        And for some people, there *are* medical issues in play that mean no amount of relaxing is going to result in pregnancy – only significant intervention will have any chance of achieving that. In those circumstances, it’s actually quite draining to hear inspiring stories about people’s friends/neighbours/relations who suddenly conceived when they’d given up all hope… and know that can’t possibly happen for you; that it’s physically impossible. Again, I hope that never becomes relevant for OP, but I mention it because I’m very sure that you’re posting from a place of kindness and compassion and just think it might be useful to have this perspective on why those kinds of stories are often quite distressing for people.

      4. Candid Candidate*

        I understand what you’re saying here, but like the other commenters replied, this isn’t helpful. And moreover, it’s not why I commented. I came for the camaraderie of being a woman in the workplace who has to stay silent about a big thing happening in my life, which is literally the thing that every human person has in common – procreation! It’s how we all got here! But I have to be quiet about it because sexism in the workplace could cost me my livelihood at the most crucial point in my adult life! I came here to talk about how hard it is to be quiet about this, I did NOT come to the Ask A Manager open thread to discuss my possible fertility issues, of all things. Good grief.

  129. My Parents Favorite*

    My mom has been unemployed for a while; my dad took a new job and will eventually work swing shift. They’ve mostly decided that mom shouldn’t get a new traditional job because hours would make it hard to see each other… whatever, not my business. However, my mom is not one to sit at home unemployed and she’s been doing so long enough she’s getting a bit stir crazy. I mentioned the idea of work from home to her, and she’s finally intrigued, but has no idea where to start. Are there resources I can encourage her to start looking at this type of set up? For tips on how to transition or even good, reputable job boards? She formerly did book keeping/office managing. I don’t want to hold her hand, but I do want to be able to push her in the right direction.

    1. Marie*

      I’ve heard flexjobs.com is a great place to look. They have a membership, so it is only for serious interest. But maybe that will be what she needs? Good luck!

    2. Tea not coffee*

      Rat Race Rebellion is a very reputable site; they screen the companies. They also have a facebook group.

    3. Jamie*

      If she is interested in freelance writing Upwork kept me pretty busy when I was unemployed. (they have other office jobs there, also)

    4. Emily*

      If it’s possible financially, she might enjoy volunteering part-time with a local nonprofit org./charity. If there’s a particular cause that she cares about, she may find a related organization that needs help with the type of accounting/admin work she’s done in the past.

      There’s a website called VolunteerMatch.org that helps people find opportunities to volunteer in a range of US cities.

      Just a thought. Each of my parents does volunteer work one day a week, and they both really enjoy it. (Mom still works a full-time job in addition, Dad is semi-retired.)

  130. fortheloveofspreadsheets*

    I have a person on my team that has trouble staying awake in meetings. They have indicated in the past that it may be semi-health related. Regardless they needs to be awake and appear engaged in all meetings. They have balked at the suggestion that we could accommodate by not having them attend meetings, including saying they felt threatened by the suggestion. How do I address this with them?

    1. Rick Tq*

      Show them links to places like WebMD that document the health hazards of narcolepsy and sleep apnea.

      I went in for a sleep study years ago and the CPAP machine I got as a result made it much easier to sleep at night and stay awake during the day.

      Investing one night for the study could save their life!

      1. M*

        Nooooope. Not this. Do not do this.

        Trying to give your employee – whose medical history you do not know – unsolicited medical advice of a “try this thing that is possibly related to your health issues that I don’t actually know anything significant about” is really, really not on. You do that and you’re at best being oblivious to proper workplace boundaries, and at worst – particularly given this person has already responded to a suggestion about accommodations by saying they felt threatened – setting yourself up for a lawsuit.

        There’s plenty of good advice in the other comments here about how to deal with this, most of which involves having a clear and honest conversation with the employee where you set out what things are actual requirements (e.g. “We don’t actually need you in meetings X, Y and Z, but for A, B and C reasons, if you do attend, it’s a requirement that you’re fully alert for the entire meeting. What can we do to make that possible?”), but the one thing you *absolutely* shouldn’t do is start trying to backseat drive their medical care.

    2. Anon Here*

      Are there other ways to accomodate them? For example, what about video conferencing? They could watch the meeting and only turn on their camera (so other people can see them) when they say something.

      I would bring it up again, but ask them for suggestions before suggesting anything yourself.

    3. Art3mis*

      I would say that they need to determine if it is a health issue, seek treatment, and if needed request an ADA accommodation before the issue starts affecting their job performance. (Even though it probably already is) I often have this problem but I know it’s a health related.

      1. Close Bracket*

        That’s not how ADA accommodation works. You have to be able to perform the core parts of the job. If being awake and appearing engaged in meetings is a job requirement, then OP is not required to let their worker sleep through meetings.

        1. Natalie*

          Being a job requirement isn’t the same thing as being a core job requirement, and there are TONS of jobs where attending meetings would fall into the former but not the latter.

          1. M*

            I mean, it sounds pretty clearly from fortheloveofspreadsheets’s post like attending meetings is indeed not a core requirement – but that appropriately representing the company (i.e. being alert) *is* if they choose to attend those optional meetings. That’s a pretty reasonable core requirement, *particularly* if there’s a reasonable accommodation that dodges the issue entirely (this employee does not actually need to attend those meetings) on offer.

    4. Close Bracket*

      You say, “I need you to appear awake and engaged in meetings. How do you think you can achieve that?” If they indicate again that it’s health related, you say something like, “I’m hearing that it’s health-related [or whatever active listening phrasing you like best]. I do need you to appear awake and engaged during meetings, and I’m going to let you manage the solution.” Whatever you do, don’t start suggesting health interventions.

      Did they use the word “threatened?” What’s up with that?

      1. NGA*

        Yes to this. Do not attempt to troubleshoot their health problems with them unless asked. “What do you need to be able to do this consistently?” and if they want to brainstorm with you, cool, but otherwise, they need to propose a solution or accept your solution, which is them not attending the meetings.

    5. fposte*

      In addition to what people are saying, check askjan dot org to see if there are any good suggestions for this problem. Do you notice any particular pattern, like are they okay in the morning but drowsier in the afternoon, or are they good in small meetings but lost in large ones? That might give you some lines to draw.

      1. Amy Sly*

        It might not be a bad idea to examine the meeting invite and duration policies too. I have occasionally had issues with falling asleep at meetings, and it’s generally because they’ve gone on for at least an hour where I had no opportunity for interaction, often in a darkened room because someone with no public speaking skills is trying to read a Powerpoint. I wouldn’t want to be left out of the meeting, because at least some of the information was going to be necessary to do my job, but had the information been handed out in a memo, I could have read that info and been back to the work that keeps me awake.

        Make sure that the meetings are as short and small as necessary. If there’s no need or desire for employee input, just put it in memo. If there is a genuine need for employees to interrupt their day and give input, keep the meeting focused on the task and keep the scope down to just one or maybe two tasks, if they involve everyone.

        There’s also the option of “stand up meetings”: no seats, so no falling asleep nor extraneous rambling or off-topic chit-chat.

        1. fposte*

          If the meetings are working for everybody else, though, it doesn’t necessarily make sense to change the protocol just because of the one person.

          1. Amy Sly*

            True, but it may also be true that they’re boring and inefficient for everyone and he’s just the one who falls asleep while other people are playing on their phones or doodling Pokemon in the margins of their notes. That’s why I suggest checking into the situation. Maybe it’s just a problem with him; maybe it’s not. fortheloveofspreadsheets won’t find out if the assumption is that it’s just Fergus’s problem.

  131. Tea not coffee*

    Do T-format letters get through an ATS? I’m applying for several jobs at a large institution that uses Page Up.

    Sometimes I use a T-format cover letter to emphasize that I meet preferred or certain minimum qualifications listed in the ad, since my most recent jobs have been temporary or not administrative support. I do have a Selected Accomplishments section in addition to the Qualifications section on my resume.

    Thank you.

    1. NGA*

      In the one I use, everything gets parsed, and the more complex the formatting, the weirder the output. We don’t hold candidates responsible for how our ATS behaves, but in general, I would prefer plainer formatting that requires fewer clicks from me to more complex formatting that requires me to click into the original document to follow.

  132. Marie*

    How do people get their comments in here so quickly??? I’ve been waiting all week to post a question to today’s Open thread, and watching it all morning. An hour and a half ago, the Open thread was posted, and there are already almost 700 comments, many of them within minutes of the original post being posted. What am I missing?

      1. Tea not coffee*

        Did you remember to hit Submit? I just scrolled to the end of comments and wrote a comment several minutes ago and it is the one right above yours.

    2. fposte*

      The Open Thread actually went up almost 3 hours ago–it goes up at 11 Eastern time. So 3 hours + huge volume of readership = 700 comments, and a lot of commenters know when the thread goes up and are ready for it. But a lot of people do read later, so I’d say post away!

      1. LGC*

        Honestly, I’ll speak for myself but I’m MORE likely to read and answer “late” posts. (I’m on Eastern time.) I’m a bit guilty of gold rushing- I did this week, because I’m off today – but I really like the late posts!

        Unfortunately, it does seem like a lot of people engage most with the top posts. I’d like it better if the most recent threads showed at the top, but that’s just my opinion.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      It’s partially getting used to the time — I’m so trained on “11am, AAM post goes up” that I’ve developed a “go check the site” reaction to seeing an 11:xx timestamp. It’s extra weird when it’s something like an in-game clock.

      Also, I think some people tend to have things already in mind, and be either mentally or actually writing up a post before the open thread goes live.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I often scan from the bottom up, esp. later in the day, so I actually see the later comments more than the earlier ones.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Same. My standard practice once the post’s been up for an hour or more is to hit ‘collapse all’ and then head directly to the bottom of the page to see what’s new.

        1. Elizabeth the Ginger*

          That’s why I’m down here right now! And now I’m suspecting that the middle may get the short shrift of attention – people who posted around comment 200-300, too late for the read-from-the-top commenters but too early for the read-from-the-bottom folks.

          1. LGC*

            Yeah, that’s kind of the fallow lands, I’ve noticed. It’s funny – you have a tsunami of posts between 11 and 12 Eastern, then a few more posts drip in, and then about 50% of the posts after 2 Eastern contain some variation of, “I know I’m late and no one is going to read this.”

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You have to get it posted within about 15-30 minutes of it going up, since it goes so fast.

      It’s possible people will type up their comments/questions and then copy/paste as soon as it goes live. That’s how it’s worked on other forums I’ve been on over the years.

  133. Anon Here*

    I’m a self-employed creative and I do some freelance gigs. Just wrapped up one of the longer projects that I’ve done in a while as part of someone else’s show. It was fun. I got experience in a new area. The show had a broad appeal and was rewarding to be a part of.

    It was mostly good until the last two days, when I worked with a different team. Two of the people there, independently of each other, decided to be complete jerks to me, playing “boss” and giving me orders even though we all had the same job title, similar backgrounds, and were doing a good job. They singled me out; they got along with everyone else.

    I can’t say what was at play, but it brought back a lot of memories of being treated similarly because I have some physical differences. It stirred up a lot of anger. It also inspired me to take a different approach next time I work with a team of people, to talk openly about why I look a bit “weird” in order to build understanding and head off some of the negative stuff. I know the risks. But, knowing my situation, I think I’m dealing with an equal amount of yucky reactions by not talking about it. And by talking about it, I get to educate people and be part of something positive. When I do talk about it openly, I find that a lot of people relate in various ways and it doesn’t have to be a big deal.

    Now I’m back to working on my own projects and selling my work solo. I also invested some of my earnings from the last gig in the stock market. I was given stock as a benefit at my last nine to five job. I did a lot better with it than the co-workers who talked openly about how their shares were doing and what they did with them. I really enjoy that area of the financial world. I enjoy reading about it and trying to time my buying/selling/trading just right. I don’t expect this to be a major source of income. I just threw an expendable amount of money into it to have some fun and see how I do. It’s looking good so far.

    Also trying to form a better working relationship with my furry canine co-worker, who serves as my agent, helping to make a good impression with business contacts. As I’ve mentioned before, he can be a habitual whiner when we’re at home. So I gave him some extra ball games and training to exercise his mind, then told him that he needs to be quiet while I work. He understands, “quiet.” He’s being good now. Off to get some good work done!

    PS – Also experimenting with being off of social media. It’s considered very important in my field, but I find it to be a really negative influence overall. I’ve felt a lot better and more productive the longer I’ve gone without looking at it. So, once I wrap up what I’m working on now, I’m going to get out there and see if I can get away with just in-person stuff and having a presence elsewhere online.

  134. HappySnoopy*

    Got call for job interview next week. I am both nervous and much more excited than thought I would be. Be lateral to promotion role salary wise…but reverting to a variation of my prior career before current role.

    We’ll see…

  135. Concrete Jungle*

    I have a fairly low stakes question that has probably been addressed on AAM before, but I can’t find it. I’m the only woman on my team and my grandboss, a much older man, has taken to calling me by the diminutive of my name. Let’s say I go by Kate and he’s started calling me Katie. I have always gone exclusively by Kate and really don’t like being called Katie, but there’s always I lot of people around when he does it so I don’t want to correct him in the moment. However, he’s the president of our company and I would also feel awkward bringing it up on private (we really interact one on one). It bothers me especially because he doesn’t do it to my male coworkers who are close to me in age. Let’s say I have a coworker named Tim, and I have NEVER heard grandboss call him Timmy. Is there a low-key way to bring this up or do I just accept that this is not the hill I want to die on and live with going by Katie?

    2. Close Bracket*

      Correct him in the moment. Don’t make a big thing, just, “Oh, it’s Kate, not Katie.”

    3. Aurion*

      I think you can correct the president in the moment, even in front of others, if you keep the delivery light and pleasant. Don’t growl out “don’t call me Katie. Only my mother/favourite great-aunt/bestie of 40 years gets to call me that”, but a lighthearted “call me Kate, please–I don’t particularly like Katie” should be fine. A reasonable person would not take offense to that, and a reasonable person wouldn’t argue the point, he’d just switch over.

      Now, if your president is unreasonable that’s a whole different kettle of fish, but start with a light correction in the moment and see how it goes.

      There is a very valid, teeth-grinding context that he only calls the woman by a diminutive and not the men, but you might not have the capital to burn to point out that context to him. I’d focus on the behaviour itself.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Correct him in the moment and say “It’s Kate actually” because seriously, this isn’t a huge thing and most people will appreciate the correction. Most aren’t doing it to disrespect you, they just assume that you probably go by that.

      Yeah it’s weird how male names are “childish” and then “adult” whereas women tend to just keep their nicknames.

      I did this as a kid, I went by Rebecca because I hated how juvenile Becky sounds. So I get it. But honestly, even in the transition phase, most people were great when correcting was involved. I introduced myself as Rebecca and then if someone called me Becky, I’d visibly whence and say “That’s a family name actually, please call me Rebecca.”

    5. blink14*

      I think this is dependent on what your actual name is vs. what you go by on a daily basis. Kate and Katie are very close, vs. say, Katherine vs. Katie. So if you go by Kate, already a diminutive, and he calls you Katie, that’s much closer than going by Katherine and being called Katie. He may genuinely not realize he’s doing it, or thinks they are interchangeable because they are both already shortened versions of a longer name.

      My name can be shortened to the first syllable, and while I go by my full name, I don’t mind at all if someone shortens it. However, I dislike being called another version of my name, which would be similar to calling someone Maria, Marie.

      I wouldn’t die on this hill, personally. If you can call attention to your own name – say you need to call him and introduce yourself as Kate on the phone, and keep signing your emails that way.

      I’ve also noticed in my own workplace interactions that male co-workers are more likely to call me by my nickname than female co-workers. This also goes for family and friends – male relatives and friends use my nickname far more than my female relatives do, for the most part. Not sure why, but it’s a definite pattern!

      1. valentine*

        He may genuinely not realize he’s doing it, or thinks they are interchangeable because they are both already shortened versions of a longer name.
        This would still be sexist, and wouldn’t fly even if he created Timmys and Jakeys and Chrissies, oh, my!

        Correct him each time and be ready with a “Nevertheless”/instant replay if he says he has a [relative/acquaintance] named Katie whom he just adores and is so [adjectives].

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      Just a guess here but he probably knows 5+ people with the formal name of Katherine who go by Katie and just assumed you did too as opposed to an attempt to undermine you. Especially if your email signature says Kate – reading comprehension is not great and he probably looked and saw K-a-t and read it as Katie because that is the more common nickname of Katherine.
      Just say it matter of factly the next time it happens. Oh I actually go by Kate, not Katie.
      He probably doesn’t do it to your male colleagues because most boys transition out of the “y” or “ie” nicknames younger than females do – many continue to use those nicknames their whole lives. Billy being one of the few exceptions and I have actually heard several men be called Billy when they have never gone by that name (usually Will or Liam).
      This might be one of the few times that sexism and ageism isn’t at play.

  136. Anonadog*

    Looking for ideas for a corporate holiday gift for employees, around $50-65 a piece.

    Our offices are spread out geographically, so typical holiday gifts like a jacket or sweatshirt don’t go over well in our warmer-weather offices.

    We’ve done water bottles to death.

    We have lots of vegans and non-drinkers at our company, so food or a nice bottle of wine is out.

    Gift cards/cash are a no-go as per senior management.

    Would love ideas or to hear about holiday gifts from your employer that you’ve loved (or hated!) Things like laptop bags? Useful tech accessories?

    1. weird magnet*

      Not a holiday gift, but the best conference gifts I’ve gotten are “things to charge tech” – a power brick or a solar phone charger. Both were really popular with all the attendees.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        ^I’ve gotten a couple portable power brick doohickeys, and they have been by far the best conference gifts I’ve ever gotten. I also really liked the nice set of ear buds & the Bluetooth headset.

      2. LQ*

        Strong agree on the power brick. They go over well and I always have extras around because someone else always needs one so they are easy and useful enough to regift should someone not need one.

    2. Beancounter Eric*

      Laptop bag isn’t bad.

      I’d prefer a nice pen. Cross, Parker, Lamy…..buying in bulk, you should be able to get nice, but not extravagant pens in your target price range.

    3. Elizabeth the Ginger*

      No more mugs!

      Maybe a sturdy canvas bag – like the LL Bean kind that zips closed, not like a cheap shopping bag – if you’re looking for something brandable. Or I’ve seen some places give out nice picnic blankets that have a semi-waterproof side and a soft fleece side.

      Cash would definitely be the most useful to everyone, though. Whatever you pick, there will be some people that will look at it and think, “Hmm, that’s nice, but I can’t use this item.” Cash would let people actually get something they need/want. Pity that senior management has nixed it.

      1. Anonadog*

        The good news is that folks already get a good financial bonus this time of the year. Studies show that even though people want cash, they tend to appreciate and value gifts more – as long as the gift is a good one!

      2. Jerusha*

        Land’s End does a lot of really nice bags in addition to clothing, and they have a division for corporate purchases. My company’s year-end gift to all employees isn’t always from Land’s End, but it frequently is, and in addition to items of clothing, over the year’s they’ve given us several quite nice bags – a canvas tote, a laptop bag, and I don’t remember what all else off-hand. They also, in terms of clothing, have both straight- and curvy-cut shirts, and carry an extended range of sizes – I know the “women’s” styles go up to at least 3x (and it’s a reasonably sized 3x).

        (Recalling the gender discussions earlier this week: One thing my company does right is that there’s a place on our intranet where you register your size preferences, so when they do the annual gift you get something in the size you designated. When you register your preferences, you are not limited by gender. So if a woman wants a “men’s” 2x polo instead of a “women’s” 3x? Just tick that box. They’re also good about asking sizing separately for different garments, so if you want your shirts fitted and your jackets roomy, you can do that too – you don’t have to pick something in the middle and hope.)

      3. consultinerd*

        A former company did subtly branded (embossed leather patch) weekender bags years ago. They went over great and I still use it frequently. I feel like minimal, subtle branding is a key if you’re giving away any kind of nice swag, since many (most?) people don’t want to feel like walking neon advertisements for their company.

    4. Colette*

      I got a nice, fuzzy lap blanket one year – I call it my cubicle blanket and wrap myself in it on days when the office is cold (and I work at a different company now).

      Another year, my employer chose 3 options (a corporate-branded hoodie, a wireless keyboard and … something else) and everyone got to choose one. I took the keyboard and still use it.

      1. [Cloaking Device Engaged]*

        I really like this: an actual choice. That way there could be options of wine or jackets or some such.

    5. Marcy*

      What about those gift catalogs? A certain amount to spend but everyone can choose what they want. (DH got one of those for a work anniversary thing. And we picked some nice knives. )

    6. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I used to order the company’s manager holiday gift – we had a huge company so we got bulk discounts, but the most popular gifts were power banks and bluetooth speakers. I also once had a team order wireless headphones, which were super popular, as people could use them at their desk.

      Ultimately, our CEO refused when every year we told him that what people really want are Amazon gift cards, but when we got a new CEO (ours retired), we immediately told him that Amazon gift cards would be a popular “I’m in charge now, things are changing” message, and would be super easy. He agreed, and we got them and everyone LOVED them.

      1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

        Oh! And my rule of thumb as the gift manager was this – know that no matter how hard you try, you can’t please everyone. There’s going to be someone who’s annoyed by your power bank because “I don’t have a cell phone,” etc. etc. Just try to please the vast majority of people and recognize that there’s almost always going to be a Scrooge.

    7. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I agree with weird magnet about the charger. A portable battery would be great. The best gift I ever got from an employer was a really good umbrella– it was sent to my office after I got caught in a rainstorm with a colleague and I had an absolute POS street umbrella. I’ve had it for almost seven years.

    8. Not All*

      We just got really nice Leatherman pocket knives with the agency logo on the handle. Everyone from the people who never leave their cubicles to the field people love them.

    9. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Awesome company gifts I have gotten:

      – Padfolio: the ones they gave us were half-sized, which meant medium-size purses could carry them, convenient for a lot of women in the office.
      – Power brick
      – Canvas messenger bag
      – Insulated mug with a wide base: I still use mine even after I left that job, because it’s very stable and doesn’t tip if you bump it.

      Bad company gifts I have gotten:
      – Stylus/pen that didn’t work well
      – Gift certificate to the office cafeteria
      – Ugly t-shirt

    10. Rey*

      Can you offer 3-4 gift basket options, and they choose the one they want? I’m thinking fruit, olive oil, popcorn, cheese, chocolate, those kinds of things were there are at least two options for vegans and non-drinkers, so they don’t get stuck with one by default. Or think about local regional specialties, like a well-known tortilla and salsa maker or the best local bread and jam.

    12. Jaid*

      Tiny little LED flashlights that can be worn on a lanyard (mine is about the size of a quarter), power bricks, eating utensil sets (knife, fork, spoon, chopsticks, two metal straws and a straw cleaner. I have a duo-chrome set that came in a handy pouch)…

  137. Lady Director*

    Brits, ideally ones working in the third sector.
    I’ve been offered the chance to think about what would help me develop in leadership (got to this level very fast, am still less than 10 years out of university), and spending a bit of cash is an option.

    Has anyone any experience of part time Masters or MBA programmes? How about other, less formal, options?
    Basically, I’ve been running a million miles an hour for 5 years, help me find something that will help me develop, and give me some breathing space!

  138. Good Will*

    Question about legal issues and dress code:

    My (large, nationwide company) is currently in the process of revising the dress code. The current dress code is very vague – we are generally allowed to wear a very casual version of “business casual” – but some recent reports of gray-area violations have come in. For example, an employee wore a controversial political t-shirt to work one day. The next day, a different employee wore an opposing controversial political t-shirt. Someone has been wearing an American flag bandanna for several months (this person has no illness or religious affiliation to which a head covering is appropriate or makes sense), many people are wearing sneakers to the office, short skirts, etc.

    HR and legal are currently discussing if they can put a “no political-wear” into the employee handbook, but are worried about infringing on free speech. Similarly, they are worried about banning head coverings at work because they need to accommodate for religious reasons. It’s my view that they are within their right to ban political clothing and head coverings, as long as there are exceptions for people who wear them for religious reasons or illnesses. Am I off-base in this?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      The first amendment free-speech provision only prevents the government from stifling speech, not private employers (with some exceptions like discussions of working conditions). I think it’s actually a great idea to ban political displays at work, so long as it applies across the board. I’m not a lawyer but it’s my understanding that a dress code can absolutely prohibit head coverings as long as there is a religious exemption.

      1. Fikly*

        This. People are very confused about free speech in the US.

        It’s only about what the government can prevent you from saying/expressing.

        That and people think they should be free from the consequences of their speech as well.

    2. fposte*

      Probably, but I think legal is going to be the final word in a company like that. “Political” is a surprisingly grey term, for instance–that’s why some places just ban t-shirts with writing on them.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Banning non-religious/medical head coverings and certain text on t-shirts has been the norm in every office I’ve ever worked at.

      For the t-shirts, it’s generally phrased along the line of “any logos or text on t-shirts or sweatshirts should be innocuous, and management reserves the right to ask you to change or cover a shirt we judge disruptive.” I think it’s a good angle to focus on the disruptiveness angle — it doesn’t matter what you do or don’t agree with, starting political wars over t-shirts in the office reflects poorly on everyone.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The safest way is to not be so specific. It should be “No shirts with text or graphics”, this encompasses more than just “no political shirts.” and also no “cat butts” t-shirts either which would be pretty inappropriate in most settings. Don’t target specific POV specifically, that handcuffs you as well.

      And again, free-speech is only when it comes down from the government. You restrict it all the time as a business and it’s not illegal.

      You can ban headcoverings unless they are for medical or religious purposes.

      Just like you can ban sneakers except for medical purposes as the interns learned the hard way.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        I agree with this – I’m struggling to see how any shirt with text or graphics fits into “business casual” in the first place, outside company logo polos/sweaters or small clothing brand logos.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I think that it’s more the “t-shirt” thing that gets me.

          I have printed blouses that are absolutely business casual but it’s a pattern in reality and not “Graphic” style in that case. So I just responded to myself, like a champ.

    5. LilySparrow*

      No slogans or symbols on clothing is a pretty standard rule. And in keeping with business-casual.

  139. Fictional Daydreams*

    I’m in a job that has a non-continuous stream of work. The usual schedule is to work for a burst of 20 minutes and then downtime (15-25 minutes) until the next batch of paperwork comes in. I’m really into… writing fanfics… so I spend some of the downtime thinking about plot points or characters and write down ideas in my notebook. But would it look bad if people saw me at my desk writing down things in my small journal vs. using my phone or surfing the web like most people do?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I do the exact same thing, so honestly I doubt it. The only question would come if you’re the only person who has that kind of intermittent workload.

      When my workload was intermittent, I wrote down notes (also for fanfiction, lol!) or read books.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Nah, you could be doing your to-do list. I would just assume that was what was going on. Most people aren’t paying that much attention unless they’re true busybodies.

      Fun story related to this kind of thing. I have a job that’s very much spread out in duties. When I came in, I found old notebooks/journals from the person before me. I thought they may be notes for the job or just out of curiosity I flipped through to see if I should keep or chuck them out or what. They were her inspirational journals with scrawling about “You are worth it, you are good enough.” sort of self chats.

      So just remember not to store them there if possible =X

    4. [Cloaking Device Engaged]*

      If 100% of your actual work is on the computer, writing in a journal will look out of place.
      Option 1: depending on how locked down your computer is, consider a cloud-based notebook.
      Option 2: specifically start adding non-computer time to your regular work. (e.g. For my job, I compose on a computer but I edit better with paper and pen, so people have become accustomed to seeing me working with a clipboard and pen. Sometimes, it’s editing work. Sometimes, it’s not.)

      1. Fictional Daydreams*

        You make a good point about using computers! But I always worry about the IT guys looking at my internet history and computer stuff since we’re a small company… I dont think they’d want to read my stuff haha

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Oh, no, don’t do it on your work computer.

          I’m not sure why you think writing would look worse than surfing on your phone. Is your journal very obviously personal? Is it Lisa Frank? ;-) Would a more professional looking journal help you feel less conspicuous? I have a little ARC notebook from Staples that I use for work note-taking, but I think it would be great for your purposes too.

    5. Nervous Nellie*

      I do this sometimes, but do it on a yellow legal pad, which just looks like I am doing regular work. I don’t use company legal pads, but buy my own. If anyone has noticed, no one has said a word. :)

    6. LQ*

      I spend work time at my desk writing in a notebook/small journal that I use to take work notes and think things through so I’m going to go with a strong you’re fine. As long as it looks professional you’ll be good.

  140. HigherEd Person*

    *Asking for a friend (no, really!)*

    I have a friend who is in a bad professional situation. They work in Student Conduct at a university, and are basically the Title IX expert. A lot of experience in conduct, mediation, assault cases, etc. They’re also geographically bound, so I’m trying to help them think outside of higher ed to other potential careers.

    Can anyone think of any other setting or profession where these skills would be transferable?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Are they trying to get out of that sort of work all together or do they just not want to work in higher education anymore? Larger police departments and non-profits hire victim advocates and I think that would be a good path for your friend.

    2. Rey*

      Title IX experience might also fall under “compliance expertise”, so other areas at the university such as research and some levels of accounting that require compliance.

    3. CM*

      Hospitals come to mind — or anywhere there is an ombudsman’s office.
      Government job — work at EEOC or state equivalent; could also work at agencies focused on education, or generally providing services in areas where there can be discrimination issues or personal conflict like housing and human services.

    4. Qwerty*

      What about HR? A lot of those skills sound transferable and I know a lot of people who would be more comfortable talking to HR rep with that kind of background. If I had a person like this in my HR department, I probably would have actually asked for help when I was being harassed instead of keeping it to myself. My theory on why so many places have bad HR departments is that the people simply don’t have the right training.

      Your friend sounds like the most popular person on our HR team, who we refer to as the People Advocate (our HR department is called the People Team). By popular, I mean that employees are comfortable talking to her *before* issues escalate to the point about HR worthy, because she’d rather prevent a problem from getting that bad. Kind of like having an AAM in house. Managers will go to her to for mediation tips (“I have a difficult employee, what are some ways for getting through to her without making her defensive”) to PC/sensitivity issues (“Hey, Bob has made some off-color comments/jokes. Nothing egregious, but could you touch base with him before it escalates?”). Having HR be approachable rather than scary has really made a big impact on the workplace environment.

      A bigger company would probably have a larger department that would allow her to focus on stuff in her skill set and could have a need for her to give trainings about workplace conduct, how to manage/mediate, etc. A lot of tech companies are basically College 2.0 and could really use someone like your friend.

  141. The Rat-Catcher*

    I have a meeting coming up to discuss the terms of my role (not just my role, but those of my whole team and our counterpart teams). These changes have been in the works for months and with the exception of some disturbing rumors, we’ve all been completely left out of discussions. My title, my supervisor, the actual work that I do, and possibly even my pay are up for grabs.
    I am an anxious person anyway and being left hanging since June has been excruciating. I know I’m likely to go into this meeting with emotions high. How do I stay calm and basically state that I’m not agreeing to anything until I’ve had time to consider it? I’ve thought about what I would do in response to various suggestions…but not what I would say. (It is a phone meeting, so I at least don’t have the body language land mine.) There are some possible conditions that I’d try to find new work over, and others that I’d want to try to negotiate but that aren’t deal breakers.

    1. WellRed*

      As much as possible, write out what you consider dealbreakers, necessities so on. Since it’s over the phone, can you also post a sign you can look at with a phrase or image you find calming, inspiring or empowerin? And treat this kind of like an interview in that you don’t have to agree on anything immediately.

  142. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Chaos continues to reign. The latest, a rant from the training department:
    -TERRIBLE WEBSITE … I know, I’ve been reporting it and auditing it for years
    -TERRIBLE MANUALS … I know, we were supposed to rework those manuals as soon as we replaced the writer who worked on those and didn’t follow our standard practices and it’s been TWO YEARS that corporate hasn’t replaced the headcount and now we’ve lost more.
    -AND NOBODY CARES… um what you’re talking to someone who’s been bashing her head against the corporate wall trying to get the same things taken care of for years. And this is the first time you’ve thought to bring one to me, and you might not have if I hadn’t mentioned to you that I’m annoyed that I haven’t had time to finish my teamroom-vs-website audit. And while you rant, I’m already drafting an email to the webmasters with the updated in-house teamroom link they should have posted to the external customer website 18 months ago.
    I channeled a lot of calm from this site but I’m sure I could have said things better.
    What would YOU say?

    1. Amememememe*

      “I’m glad you’re so passionate about fixing these issues too! Unfortunately xyz issues need ABC to be done from ROLE and we haven’t had anyone in that role/with that knowledge since 20xx. I’m doing F and G at the moment to resolve some issues, but if you also raise H and I to person in charge we might be able to get support around those issues as well”

    2. CM*

      “I understand your frustration, and I assure you that I care! In fact, I’m glad to hear your concerns and agree with many of them. You are absolutely right that the website has X, Y, and Z issues and the manuals sorely need to be updated to reflect current practices. If you would be willing to escalate these issues to __, I would appreciate it as as that may help my department get the resources to finally fix the issues.”

  143. Anon for this*

    So my company is going through a merger and it’s annual enrollment time. This year we’re down to one insurer and three plans, and all of the rates went up (PPO literally doubled and the HD plans suck). You would think doubling the size of the company would get us a better deal than this….?

    The cynic in me thinks this is a ploy to get more people to quit so they don’t have to pay out severance.

    1. Mr. McGillicuddy*

      I used to work for J&J and you would think such a big company would have good benefits and pay, but the opposite was true.

      As I recall the insurance was expensive and was run-of-the-mill as far as coverage and ease-of-use.

      My pay was almost not enough to live on due to the job being in an expensive cost of living area.

    2. WellRed*

      We were acquired by a larger company this year ( my actual company is 10 people). Their health benefits were better but proportionately so and they took away two paid holidays.

  144. Anon bc work*

    Something just happened this morning that makes me upset on my coworker’s behalf. She basically works as a teapot coordinator (entry level) on our team, but definitely had the talents and potential to be a teapot consultant. She has worked in her current role for more than a year and a half and proved to be very competent, going above and beyond. Well, I know that earlier this week, with the encouragement of our manager, she applied for a teapot consultant opening on our team. However this morning, the IT director stopped by to set up a computer at a nearby empty cubicle. We overheard my coworker asking, “who is the new computer for?”, and the IT dir answers it was for a new teapot consultant named Fergus. I could tell by the fallen expression on my coworker’s face that she did not know about this.

    Perhaps I don’t know all the details. Maybe we are actually hiring 2 teapot consultants and she still has a shot. But my suspicion is that they decided to not promote her because she was too good as a coordinator. A similar thing happened to me when I applied for a lateral transfer to a different team last year (I current work as a teapot consultant and wanted to be a coffee consultant.) Honestly, I’m so over this stupid company and leadership and can’t wait until I get a job offer.

    Meanwhile, I’m not sure if I should say anything to my coworker? I can’t while we are in office, since we sit by the execs, but I want to tell her I’m disappointed they didn’t hire her as a consultant.

    1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I think you should say something! When I worked in a toxic company, it really helped to know I wasn’t the only one struggling with all of the drama, and that I wasn’t alone in my experiences and frustrations.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      It would also be good information to let her know your story of a lateral transfer. If her company isn’t going to let her move up, it would be a kindness to give her the information to make that conclusion early so that she can start looking elsewhere.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would circle the wagons with her and let her know she’s not alone! And then you can hatch an escape plan together! [Okay maybe not that level but it’ll be nice for her to hear “Seriously, it’s not you, it’s them, it’s always been then.”] because lots of people will take this very personally and start assuming they’re not good enough. She is good enough, they’re just jerkbags.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      This is a conflict-avoidant way of addressing the situation, hoping (rightly I assume) that she will “passively” pick up that she wasn’t successful in the application. I am 99%+ sure that you aren’t hiring *two* teapot consultants. IT director would have assumed either she knew already, or didn’t know she was interested in the role.

      If you say anything to her — and I think you can if you do it discreetly — I would encourage her to look elsewhere outside the company.

      Sounds like there is a political battle going on over the heads of people you actually report to.

      1. Anon bc work*

        To be clear, the IT director has nothing to do with managing or hiring on our team. It was coincidental that my coworker heard from him that he was setting up for another incoming teapot consultant. I’m upset that my managers didn’t hire her into the role when she is not only qualified, but already trained on part of the job. My suspicion is that it was purely self-serving on their part. They need her as a teapot coordinator and nothing more.

        For the record, I did try to start a conversation about it with her, but she didn’t seem to want to talk about it, so I never got around to telling her more. We will see what happens.

  145. Just Like Bart*

    Long time lurker, first time commentator here. Just felt compelled to announce some good news everywhere.
    I recently interviewed for a job and got an offer. I’m so excited! This blog has been a tremendous help with job hunting and I’m so grateful. Thanks, AAM!

  146. Amememememe*

    So like a fool I agreed to extend my contract ~3 weeks to wrap up a couple of projects but for the next 2 weeks I’ll be doing Tuesday-saturday Full time at my retail job (both have same hourly rate). It’s going to be 2 weeks of 52 hours+. Does any one have any tips for keeping my sanity? My house mates have already offered to put my laundry on when I need it

    1. merp*

      Maybe make a large, easy casserole of some kind before it all starts, baked pasta or something? I always appreciate being able to just come home and microwave something during a busy week.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes to food planning, even if some of it is just frozen meals or healthy salads or meals you pick up ready made at the deli or grocer

    2. LQ*

      Be clear about the end date with yourself, 2 weeks isn’t that bad, you can countdown through 2 weeks. Let things slip. If you have bills or weird things that crop up that have to be done that can be dealt with before or after that’s ok. Lay out your clothes ahead of time, especially if you have to change between them.

      Don’t sit down first thing when you get home. Just doing 2 things when you get home right away THEN sitting down makes a weird difference. (Even after a brutal 12 hour shift, maybe it’s just taking out the trash or moving laundry from washer to dryer. Doesn’t have to be big, but that something is big.)

  147. Bigglesworth*

    I asked last week how I could resign from a pretty toxic workplace. Welp, I did that on Wednesday and my last day will be 11/15. At the time I asked for advice, we were pretty sure my Dad had ALS and that diagnosis was confirmed on Tuesday. Made resigning on Wednesday a whole lot easier. Now I just need to work through my notice period and hopefully keep my work quality high enough to leave with a good reference. My boss told someone in our office that I’m the best law clerk he’s ever had, but that he understands why I’m leaving. Good to know I didn’t burn a bridge (even if he is a gaslighting racist). :/

    1. Jamie*

      Good luck for both you and your dad…glad you were able to leave with a good reference and out of a toxic place.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thanks. It’s been incredibly stressful working here while wrapping up law school. Adding my dad’s diagnosis on top of all of that (and how fast the ALS is progressing) has just been too much to handle.

  148. DizzyFizzy*

    Intern frustrations. Our office has a paid student intern who is supposed to be supporting staff doing various administrative tasks. I’ve been having the intern do tasks for me, but they make mistakes all the time. I mean, every little thing I request comes back with an error. Not just grammatical errors, but not paying attention to details, or not problem-solving errors. Example. Me: Please look at everyone’s schedules and set up a meeting with ABC people on Y topic and DEF people on Z topic. Intern: invites ABD to the meeting and sends the agenda for topic Z. Or. Invites only D and E because they couldn’t find F’s email address (which is in our directory). Me: Please create a form (using software they know how to use) for staff to input information on Topic Q. Intern: emails me their answers on topic Q. I’ve tried written instructions, daily emails, oral… there are always errors. I don’t have the bandwidth to do the tasks I’m assigning to this person and actually need support on more activities, but the amount of time I’m investing in getting this person to do the basics, much less the higher level of work I need, is almost not worth it. Not to mention the frustration. Suggestions? Thoughts? Help!

    1. fposte*

      Have you had a serious sit-down conversation with the intern and asked them why they think these errors are happening? If not, I’d go with that next; you could get some useful information there. But if it’s an inherent flaw you probably don’t have the time and energy to get them sorted out before they’re gone, so I’d anticipate finding them something super-harmless to do or asking for them to be reassigned.

      1. DizzyFizzy*

        do they have formal training in things such as mediation, facilitation, conflict resolution? Do they want to continue doing such things? Government agencies can contract out for such services; I don’t know what kind of firms are the ones actually doing this work, but that’s one option.

      2. DizzyFizzy*

        Oops trying to respond to someone else’s thread not my own. I have not had a sit-down. The person is relatively new so at first I chalked it up to getting to know our systems, etc. but it’s become obvious that there’s more to it than that. I feel awkward in part b/c I’m not the person’s mentor or supervisor or anything. I do mention each issue so the person can fix that particular issue the next time around, but not a big picture talk.

        1. fposte*

          For a lot of intern situations, there really isn’t a formal in-office mentor or supervisor; if there is, feel free to loop that person in, but I highly recommend the serious sitdown for somebody who’s getting corrections and instructions and they’re not making a dent.

    2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      Did you hire my former intern? We had someone a few years back with these same issues.

      One thing that did help for awhile (we eventually fired this person) was making the seriousness of their issues known. Sometimes interns don’t realize that not achieving good results at work has more dire consequences than getting a sub-par grade. We put our employee on a performance plan – formally explaining each issue we were having and setting a timeline for her to improve those goals, and explaining that if she didn’t meet them, we’d be terminating her role.

      She ended up sharing that the reason she was struggling was some serious mental health issues, which she ultimately couldn’t overcome to get her work done (or show up to work consistently, etc.) – it helped to know she wasn’t just slacking off, and gave us the opportunity to understand how to better help her, but ultimately, treat an intern like an FTE – they need to understand that if they don’t do their work, they’re going to lose their job – that’s reality. An internship is a course in professional work life.

      Good luck!

      1. DizzyFizzy*

        Thanks! This person wasn’t new to the working world (maybe because they did come from your org!) but I think your point is good. The person did say to me that they would like to take on more tasks, but that is a long way in the future.

        1. WellRed*

          When someone wants to take on more tasks it’s a good opening to say they need to get their current tasks done right before earning more responsibility

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          If they say something like “I want more tasks” my response would be “That may be possible but you have to master your current tasks first.” which may shake them into realizing that this is going to hold them back.

          What may be happening is the mundane stuff that they are being given isn’t stimulating enough to make them do a good enough job. It doesn’t matter in the working world, as mentioned, the stakes are higher. So that has to be really focused on here.

          They need to be treated like a struggling employee and spoken to, given a PIP and treated with respect and dignity in the end. This will help everyone in the end, even if the end result is removing them from the internship position because they can’t handle it.

          But loop in everyone necessary and see if they’re having the same issues as well! It could be that everyone is struggling right now to figure it out but is having the same internal conflicts you are. I would probably bet they are.

  149. Agent Smith*

    I *walked out* of an interview this week.

    The interviewer texted me twice to confirm I was still going to come. When I got there, some person I’ve never heard of greeted me and brought me into a room without windows. My first thought was I’m going to be murdered. It was a nice building downtown, but there was no name of the company on the door, and no identifying markers on the floor I was on .

    He started interrogating me. I had to stop him and ask who he was.

    The name of the company applied to wasn’t the name of the company on the badge and it wasn’t the name of the company that he referred to. I had to stop him again and ask him what was going on and he said that one of the companies was the landlord and one of them was a parent company and there are multiple companies that operate under it. I still have no idea which company I would be working for or literally what they did. ( I looked up the company when I applied and it looked like a consulting firm.)

    His colleague walked in and now there were two people questioning me. They kept asking me questions like, how do you deal with somebody screaming at you? Give me an example of a time somebody was screaming at you and how you handled that? Are you OK working in the middle of the night when somebody is angry at you? Do you like QuickBooks? How do you like QuickBooks? Do you want to be a bookkeeper? Tell me which car rental company you’ve used. How many cars do you book every week? How many people do you book cars for every week and how many cars do they get each?How many cars do you book every year? Do you like booking cars?

    I stopped them and I was like, wait a second I thought this was an office manager position. The description said it was greeting guests, organizing supplies, sorting mail, ordering snacks? The woman said, yes that and renewing our contracts.

    Then they jumped into questioning me again and we’re only stopped to talk to each other as if I wasn’t in the room. The questions were unrelated to anything that I thought I would be doing in the role. Eventually I had this voice in my head they told me to leave.

    They told me it was OK if I didn’t want to be a bookkeeper and I didn’t need to do any bookkeeping in the job. I almost wish that I had recorded the conversation because it was so strange. It was unlike any interview I’ve ever had.

    I stood up to leave and told them that I was getting a lot of mixed signals and I don’t feel comfortable with this. I thanked them for their time and I left. They looked a lot more ashamed than shocked. They said nothing to me as I left.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      What kind of Twilight Zone shit is this? You didn’t dodge a bullet, you dodged a freaking land mine!

    2. KayDeeAye (formerly Kathleen_A)*

      Wow. Good for you. I probably would have stayed (unless that murder vibe really kicked in :-) ) just out of curiosity. But congrats on advocating for yourself!

    3. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      This is BIZARRE. Hope they learned some sort of lesson, but based on the questions they asked you, their interview skills are probably least of their concerns (who asks candidates about being screamed at?!)

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First of all, what they were asking [minus the weird stuff about screaming and working in the middle of the night] is pretty basic for a lot of office management positions. So I’m a little knee-jerky about how their job description reads receptionist but is under that title, I know it’s a thing but it’s a bad thing, yet another issue with job titles being so crazy different across different companies.

      I’m glad you left though, you did the right thing. What a horrible setup and horrible people and I can feel the bad vibes from here!

      1. Agent Smith*

        You’re right. When I told my friend about it I realized that when I repeated them that, the questions weren’t actually that weird. But like… Well first of all, it was the way they were being asked. It wasn’t like a friendly, so what rental companies have you used to book cars? It was an interrogation, like 10 questions in a row that were essentially the same question, like to get me to trip up or something, and not friendly at all.

        Also the fact that they told me I wouldn’t be doing any of the things that they asked me about was really weird. It wasn’t like oh you might be helping out with this or that.

        A lot of it was the tone in the vibe and I think that’s why I wish I had recorded it because I think just telling somebody that they asked me these questions isn’t weird on its own.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I totally did get that weird rapid fire interrogation vibe from your story, so I completely agree that despite the questions being pretty standard they are awful and your gut was right to run!

          Also it stinks of them not listing the job right in the first place, which screams in my ears. I have this sinking feeling that their salary range is also awful, just like they are. If you list it like you said they did, it’s a somewhat above minimum wage receptionist gig. You throw in scheduling a large amount of cars and dealing with bookkeeping even on just a billing/receiving level, you are adding dollars an hour on top of that original listing. But they are still going to want to pay you that receptionist price tag in the end.

        2. Jamie*

          I can feel the tone from the way you wrote it – I totally get it. It sounds so needlessly combative.

        3. LabTechNoMore*

          I’ve definitely had those interrogation-style interviews like this before. Awful, especially considering all the prep work and time that goes into the candidate’s side. The only silver lining is that it gives you a clear idea of the office culture for that role.

    6. yay november*

      Oh my goodness. I’d wonder about some weird confusion, since none of the names match, did they get the wrong person?

  150. Jaid*

    After spending the better part of my day on the phone with IT to get the ethernet connection restored to my workstation (no go, opened a ticket), going to two other PC’s to not succeed in logging in, then two more phone calls for password support… I called it a day and left.

    To only find my train delayed by 26 minutes.

    On the other hand, I did get my grocery shopping done early and changed the kitty litter. Sigh.

  151. Environmental Compliance*

    I just got our drone mapping layers back and it’s so COOL I AM SO EXCITED!!!

    Any recommendations on GIS softwares? Preferably low cost, so I can justify getting a license through our finance dept? Looks like ArcGIS Pro is $700/year, ArcGIS Online Creator is $500/year. All I’ll be doing is putting in very basic layers (i.e., stormwater drain mapping, electrical line mapping), so I don’t need something that does all the (very cool) high-level analyses. I’ll need to be able to upload raw layer data, of course.

    Any thoughts??

    (Legit, haven’t played with GIS since my undergrad, and I really enjoyed it then, so I’m probably too excited to have this tool here. I can think of so many piddly projects we can clean up with this!)

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I was looking at that one! It looks really nice, and I like that it’s desktop. The manuals make it seem pretty darn workable.

        1. Lady Kelvin*

          It might be your best bet to start with, then if you find it can’t do what you want, you will be in a better position to know what you want and pay for it. I don’t get to do a lot of GIS work, but it is fun when I do :)

      2. consultinerd*

        I work with ArcGIS near-daily. Have played with QGIS once or twice in the past. The knock on it from my local expert is that it’s quite good for data input/management, but terrible for producing nice cartography or anything online. That said, the cost to try it is $0 so it’s probably worth trying it and seeing if it meets your needs before you start shelling out big bucks to ESRI.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          It might work well then. I’m not doing anything super fancy as far as mapping goes – no topographies or anything like that – more of line mapping.

          I’ll try it out this week and see how it goes!

  152. #1 The Larch*

    Just need to vent. I seem to have a problem getting along with a co-worker. We got off on the wrong foot to start and I can’t seem to get back on their good side. No matter how I do things “their” way, it’s never right. I’m the “director of first impressions” and have tried to develop a good notification system as they are the assistant to Grand Boss. However, there have been a couple of miss-steps lately, due to not being able to get a hold of said co-worker. Then I somehow over-step. Now I’m afraid they’re going to sabotage my efforts to stay in this newish job and complain to the my other co-workers/direct report. Is this a case of me not understanding how to do my job or just not being able to live up to someone else’s standards? I don’t know. Maybe I’m the BEC? Ugh.

    1. fposte*

      How do they get along with others? Is there somebody at your level you could confidentially buttonhole and say “Hey, I can’t seem to get on the right foot with Taylor–do you have any suggestions?”

      BTW, most of us work somewhere where somebody doesn’t like us, but it’s okay. I can’t swear that Taylor won’t impair your job, but it’s not that likely if you’re otherwise competent and get along with others, including the Grand Boss.

      1. #1 The Larch*

        It’s a smallish company and I’m the newest person. They get along with everyone else pretty well because they have been here for a while. Maybe it’s a combination of me still finding my way and them still trying to get used to me. Hopefully I’ll figure this out. I cannot afford to quit so soon, and nor do I want to. This is the best step my career has taken, even if it is “entry level.” I’ve been in retail/customer service jobs so long, i’ve forgotten what office life is like. I’m keeping my chin up, but I’ll be damned if they turn into an office bully.

  153. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    I’m in a bit of a weird life situation, and I’m hoping someone can tell me if my explanation sounds funny:

    I was laid off from my job in a medium-sized, Midwestern city in August. I decided to take a leap of faith and sell my house (mostly because the housing market is booming in my town, and I wanted to profit before it burst) and move to a large East Coast area for three months to job hunt.

    Now, I’m interviewing for an amazing job back home – ironic, I wish this position had been open before I moved!

    I’ve been describing my time away as a personal sabbatical – an opportunity to explore and get away while job hunting, both in my new city and back home.

    My concern is that this will make me sound crazy, or like I don’t actually want to move back home – which, after a month and a half out here, I want to do! I love this area but I miss my friends and family.

    Any advice on how to explain this in an interview, or does the way I’ve explained it here not make me sound like a weirdo?

    1. Morning Reader*

      Sounds fine to me, but for the “back home” interview, you could emphasize that your time away made you realize that you’d prefer to be back home. (Even if, in another interview in new city, you might say how your experience made you realize how much you thrive in city life.) You want to say something true that makes it apparent you’d be a good fit for the job and unlikely to leave suddenly. Good luck!

    2. [Cloaking Device Engaged]*

      Personal opinion: “personal sabbatical” adds to the flake factor. Personally, I’d take the tack of “I took a chance and experimented with moving. It didn’t work. I’m coming home.” When I moved from (other midwestern city) to (large coastal city), people back home including my family were placing bets on how long before I moved home. It’s just part of the deal.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        But “it didn’t work” suggests coming back to your hometown wasn’t your first choice. If you truly have decided you’d rather be there, I’d express more enthusiasm. Otherwise, as an interviewer, I’d assume you’re going to keep looking for greener grass elsewhere.

        1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

          Yeah, I’m going to stay away from the “it didn’t work” and lean towards “I found myself missing being back home” – since that’s the truth. I’ve only been house here for a month or so, and if I kept going, I’d find something here – this just came up first!

    3. fposte*

      I’m with Cloaking–I don’t understand the usefulness of “personal sabbatical” in this context, and it doesn’t seem to match what happened anyway. The prosaic truth–that you were laid off and left the area for new work but are thrilled to find an amazing job back in original city–is perfectly compelling and a lot easier to parse.

      1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

        Thanks, guys – this is helpful! I was worried that “sabbatical” makes it sound like I’d had a mental health breakdown or something.

        Two months of unemployment has made me so paranoid about how I describe what I’m doing, especially since everyone I’ve interviewed with out here has acted like I’m bizarre when I tell them I decided to just come find a job in a new area. It’s made me overly cautious about finding a way to explain it away, when I need to remember that simple is better!

        1. Colette*

          Just a note – a month and a half isn’t long enough to know if you will like living in the new location. I find most people need at least 6 months to start feeling comfortable and building a social circle.

          Of course, there’s nothing wrong with moving back, but being away will get easier if you stay.

          1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

            Oh no, I totally get that. I’ve lived away from my hometown several times before. But I also need a job, and this job came up first. If a job came up here in my new city, I’d take it. Just need a paycheck!

    4. bdg*

      I don’t agree with saying the move didn’t work out — to me, that would imply that you’re sad it didn’t and would hope it will eventually work out. I don’t think that’ll be like, a huge, glaring red flag to the back home people, but that’s the impression I’d get.

      Can you just leave it as, “I took some time off after I was laid-off, but I’m so excited about this opportunity and the chance to move back home.” Your reasons for it or what you hoped would happen don’t really matter here. Good luck!

      2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

        Thanks! This is what I was going for with the word sabbatical, but that’s probably because I have several colleagues who’ve used that term in the same sense, so it’s familiar to me in that relation. Putting it more simply – “taking time off” – reduces the risk of sounding like I was in rehab or something.

    5. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I should also mention – the time away from home probably won’t even come up, I didn’t reference it on my resume and my legal address is currently my parents’, which is local, but a friend referred me to the job and is on the interview panel, so if she mentions it, I don’t want them to be thrown!

  154. sleeves*

    I’m looking for a bit of extra income, as I had to take on a bit of debt this summer (I was part of 2 weddings, 6 weeks apart. It was fun but, ow my wallet) on top of starting a new job, and I would like to pay it off quicker than I can with my current income. I’ve been looking for flexible, remote situations but I’m having trouble finding any that aren’t part-time/require availability during working hours. Does anyone have suggestions of where to look? I’ve tried flexjobs already, but was spooked by needing to pay for the service.

    1. Gaia*

      Flexjobs is my go-to and it was completely worth the charge. They vet companies so you don’t get the scams.

      If you want something really flexible, a friend of mine captions videos via Rev. She does it as a side hustle. No set hours and she works as much or little as she wants and seems to like it. She’s using it to pay off debt.

  155. A ball of anxiety*

    Anyone have luck getting accommodations for less (or more remote) meeting attendance?

    I suffer from anxiety, and one of my triggers is being in a room full of people where we have to sit quietly. So, staff meetings, trainings, presentations and the like are a nightmare for me. My fight or flight kicks in and gets my stomach upset and it’s just a vicious circle making me unable to focus on what’s being presented or discussed. My current workplace has A LOT of meetings like this. I’m constantly trying to find ways out of them, all while trying to avoid the big awkward conversation with my boss or HR. I am a documented top performer in all other ways. My old jobs never required this much meeting time. Where do I begin to ask for help, and is this even a valid ask?

    1. Shelly*

      You’ll have to talk to HR to get the accommodations ball rolling, and if they’re good at their job, they’ll let you know exactly what information has to be disclosed to your boss (the accommodation you need) without disclosing your private medical information.

      Are you currently working with a therapist for your anxiety? I think that you’ll need medical documentation from them to request accommodations through HR. And if you haven’t already talked to your therapist about some potential strategies for meetings, you’ll probably want to check that out.

      In terms of the actual form of accommodation, think about what your role is in each meeting, and how that can be achieved in other ways (maybe grouping like meetings together): meetings where I have to take in information but not talk, meetings where I have to participate in back-and-forth discussion, meetings where I have to present to the group. Can you read meeting minutes afterwards? Which ones can you participate in via Skype? Can you provide your portion beforehand or come to your portion of the meeting and duck out when its done?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You have to bring it up. I haven’t heard of this kind of accommodation before but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible by any means.

      Sadly it does mean you have to speak up and I know from experience that’s the hardest part. But it will be better once you rip the bandaid off.

      Talk to your boss first, always the first step is to go up the chain of command. If they’re not receptive, go to HR to bring up ADA issues.

    3. Asperger Hare*

      While this isn’t what you asked for, may I suggest using a fidget toy or similar? I use that during meetings where I cannot leave and it’s stressing me out, and that enables me to attend. (Just a thought for if you’re not able to access any accommodations.)

      1. A ball of anxiety*

        This is all so helpful. (Side note of quite likely undiagnosed Asperger’s here. Hello!) I know I need to rip the bandage off, so to speak. Fidgets don’t do much for me. Being able to sit apart from the group where I feel I can breathe helps, but there is no such space in our small office. Most meetings, like 95%, I’m just taking in info. Sometimes there’s group discussion, but not often. I’m fine when presenting (I’m a professional musician). It’s the being trapped, surrounded, and passive that just sets me off. Going to work up a script to talk to my boss. Thank you!

  156. Kendra*

    I’m thinking about going back to school. I’m just having a really hard time connecting with the jobs that I’m qualified for. All of my friends from high school pretty much have PhDs or are medical doctors, and I feel like I vibe with those people a lot better.

    MBA will probably give me the most opportunities, but I can’t afford $80k and I’m not going to be approved for any kind of loan, not that I would want that anyway.

    I was considering a PhD in economics because that something is really interesting to me, and it theoretically would be free. I asked my friend how she afforded to live when she got her PhD, and she basically said that she has a partner that supports her and that’s what you need and most people drop out because they can’t afford to live.

    I feel like it’s really important for my mental health to be and that kind of environment. But I’ve also heard having a PhD can sometimes even hurt your chances of getting a job because people think you’re overqualified. Honestly it would probably be two years before I could even enroll because I have to take the GRE, but I’m just trying to weigh the options.

    My main goal is to improve my quality of life. I am super super broke and going back to school won’t solve that right away but at least I think I won’t be bored and broke. Right now I have trouble really doing much with my free time and even though I’m working several jobs I’m not very stimulated at work. I know the answer might be to get a different job but, I’m working on it.

    2. fposte*

      Econ isn’t one of those where a master’s provides a useful entry point, unfortunately, otherwise I’d suggest that first. So do you have career track models of people with such PhDs? Do you know what track you’d do with yours? You sound like you’re drawn to the academic environment for getting a PhD but you’re thinking it might even hurt you for the jobs you’re looking at, which I’d recommend you think through–the academic environment will end and leave you with the job world. So what jobs *would* a PhD open a door to that you’d want to do?

      Additionally, doing a PhD is sort of like entering a strict religious order but without the serenity; there’s poverty, weird rituals, rigor, and general lack of agency. That doesn’t mean it’s horrible for everybody or that it’s not better than what you’re doing currently, but most people find it pretty draining; I’d want to prepare as much a possible for that (read doc student blogs/subreddits, talk to ones in the programs you’re considering) so I wouldn’t feel like I was out of the frying pan and into a very thoughtful fire.

    4. AnonyMs.*

      If you want to get a PhD, it should be because you want to use the PhD. That can mean a lot of things, but if you just want the degree because you vibe better with people who have more formal education, then that’s a tough road unless you’re in a position where you never have to work. (Personally, a PhD is my plan for my retirement because I know that a doctorate in my chosen field would never pay the bills.)

      My partner has a PhD in economics. It was really hard work. He managed to finish in five years but many of his cohort did not. He went to school in a city with a low-enough COL that many of his cohort could live solely on the stipend, but it’s a very student-y lifestyle with no opportunity for savings. I paid the majority of our rent and bills, and my partner worked his butt off getting fellowships and other opportunities so he could get some extra money through the year. It’s also not entirely “free”; the university paid my partner’s tuition, but he had to pay fees and he had to work a certain number of hours every semester. Sometimes the jobs available to fulfill that requirement were not ones he wanted. And for about three semesters, he had exactly the job he wanted… but when he went on the job market he should have taken more teaching-focused jobs so he could have that experience on his resume.

      Having a PhD cannot hurt your chances of finding work… if you’re looking for work that requires a PhD. If you want to teach university or do research full-time or work as an economist, you will need either a PhD or a master’s. But if you want to be, say, an accountant, a PhD might work against you.

      Look, if all you want is the education and to be in a classroom, look into the community college in your area. Classes are generally inexpensive (at least compared to four-year schools), you don’t need to be on a degree track (sometimes you can take them ad hoc) and you might be able to apply them in the workplace.

      1. Kendra*

        I also want to get a job after I graduate. Which is why I was thinking about getting an MBA. But masters degrees you have to pay for.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Well, yeah, that’s kind of the thing– but an MBA, more than almost any master’s– is an investment. If you go to a good school, the benefits allow you to pay back your loans.

    5. Rick Tq*

      Ask them about their student loans and how long it will take to pay them off. Do you want a house? Do you want to fund a retirement account? Neither one may be possible even with your PhD.

      Unless you can come out the other end with zero debt you are setting up years and for some a lifetime of servitude until they are paid off.

    6. Platypus Enthusiast*

      So I finished a master’s recently, and my plan is to work for a few years and increase my skill set for my field, and possibly pursue a PhD in 3 years. A PhD is not a decision to take lightly. It requires a lot of intense, hard work. Universities differ in their tuition stipends, but the students in my department who were given stipends are all full time students who have to commit to a certain amount of hours in the department working on various research activities/teaching. It’s a long term commitment (though the exact length would depend on your program), and even if economics is interesting to you, you may have to take classes you don’t like. Also- PhD programs can be really detrimental for mental health-it’s a lot of stress and academia can be a really weird environment.
      Regarding job searches, a PhD won’t hurt you depending on what job you’re searching for. If you want to go to academia, research, etc., a PhD will most definitely help. You mentioned that you vibe well with people who have pursued pretty high levels of education and that you feel bored, so it’s possible that you’re craving intellectual stimulation and that you’re not challenged in your current situation, but you also mentioned being broke. I don’t want to recommend just taking classes willy-nilly, because education is expensive, but is there a possibility you can do one class at a time and see if you can somehow reduce the cost (I’d recommend things like tuition reimbursement from a job), and take a class that would really make you look valuable on applications? One skill I’m trying to amp up is learning different statistical analysis programs, like SAS or R. This could make you more attractive for PhD programs, and increase your chances of getting in with stipends.
      I realize this sounds very discouraging, and that’s not what I want to do at all! Just be very, very, thoughtful about this. Research universities with programs that you’re interested in and look at their FAQs, their admitted applicant profiles, faculty in the departments, etc. And if you’re planning on taking the GRE, go to your local library- most have GRE practice books available!

    7. E*

      Days late to the party but you may also want to consider looking for a new position where they help subsidize your graduate degree. My dad worked full time and got his PhD in Econ. Granted that was a long time ago, but I know that there were people in my grad program who had their tuition subsidized by their jobs.

  157. Persephone Mulberry*

    Just a Friday happy: I am coming up on 7 months at my “new” job and I’m still loving it. I 100% have no regrets about jumping ship from the temp-finally-turned-perm job that I didn’t really like and had accepted with extreme reluctance.

  158. Me--Blargh!*

    Signed the closing papers today — Monday is moving day. After a day to settle in, I will see what temping opportunities are near the parental unit’s house while I look for something decent in the city proper. I hope she took care of the wireless internet and it’s not the slow tier where it takes an hour to upload one resume and you can’t stream (I told her I’d help out on costs; she can always downgrade it later when I move on).

    THIS BETTER BE WORTH IT >:(

  159. Gaia*

    I work full time remote and I love it. The job is great, the flexibility is great, all good. But y’all, I’m lonely. I am an extroverted introvert. I don’t need to do a lot of socializing to meet my needs but I’m finding that I do need to be just around humans more I guess? Working from public locations is fine every now and then but my work suffers without a second screen. I’ve considered co-working sspaces but the cheapest around here is $400 a month for a hot desk.

    I’m legit considering getting a second job just to be around people more but I value my free time too much.

    How do my fellow remote workers approach this?

    1. NGA*

      Have you already asked if your company will cover the co-working space? I work for a pretty small company that doesn’t have a lot of other bells and whistles but when I asked for this it was no problem. I really like my co-working space!

      1. NGA*

        Oh, and if they won’t, it might be worth getting connected with freelancers, consultants and other remote workers in your area to possibly start a weekly/monthly co-working date. A friend of mine has a monthly co-working day for other consultants in her field. They meet at each other’s houses, but the same thing could probably be accomplished meeting in coffee shops or libraries. It takes a little networking to uncover these sorts of people, but it sounds like that might be a strength of yours!

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I’m really, really lucky because I live in an apartment building with a ton of lounge space and free Wifi, so I work a lot downstairs and there are people walking by all the time. The second screen thing is an issue for me too, though, so I hear you.

      I make sure to get out a lot. I have a dog, so he has to be walked for at least 20 minutes every afternoon. I sometimes take him to a nearby dog park so I can talk to people, but even barring that, he’s very cute and friendly so I get a lot of casual interaction just on those walks. Even without a dog, can you take a walk around the block during the day?

      I try to go out for coffee or lunch occasionally. Not with anyone and not with my laptop. Just over to a fast casual spot or something.

      I have a hobby that is very people-oriented and I made it a point to get out and do it. It’s also really organized, so it’s a set two nights every week where I get out of the house and do something. That’s probably my biggest recommendation. If I didn’t have that hobby, though, I might consider working a few hours a week in the evenings at a local bookstore or movie theater or something, so don’t discount that. If all you want is to be around more people, you don’t need to commit to too many hours.

    3. OtterB*

      Maybe volunteering, rather than a second job? I had a couple of years when I was working remote and I used to volunteer at lunch at my kid’s school once a week. Got me out of the house, let me get more of the vibe of the school, helped cover for parents who didn’t have the flexibility I did. Or maybe volunteering to visit elderly neighbors?

    4. blink14*

      Can you get out once or twice a day for a breakfast run, lunch, etc? When I work from home, I get cabin fever really quickly, and I find that even running an errand helps that, and provides some human interaction. I would also plan at least one activity at night (or whatever your off time is) out of the house. That’ll give you something to look forward to.

    5. The Grammarian*

      I’m just lonely, ha. I live in a new state and don’t have friends here yet. Sometimes I work from coffee shops for an hour or two to hear people talk and to get out of the house. I’m looking forward to hearing others’ suggestions.

    6. Filosofickle*

      I have a super high tolerance for being alone, but certainly hit a limit after many years of working and living alone. I didn’t even really notice the slide until I was in bad shape, so it’s good you’re seeing it!

      Unfortunately I can’t work effectively in coffee shops or shared spaces — home is the only place I’m truly productive — so my only real option has been increasing social time. More phone calls, more dinners, more effort. (As an introvert with a big fear of running out of time/energy, it’s hard for me to make plans in advance which means I’m often more lonely than I need to be. I am working on it!) More activities out of the house help too, even solo, since they take me to public spaces and interactions with strangers.

      1. Filosofickle*

        I saw your comment that you’re new to the area. Many of my friends live in other places, too, and that can really suck. Worse, few seem to want to “talk” anymore. I don’t love the phone, either, but it’s all I have sometimes! They’ll text so I’m getting better at that. I’m trying to get them to video, like Skype, since that’s more like a get-together than a call. When I was short on local people, I joined a few Meetups. I chose those few carefully, and I found some good events based on mutual interests.

        Do you know anyone else who works remotely? I’ve had friends set up coworking sessions by video. Not talking the whole time, just working side by side. Or keeping group Slack channels open.

    7. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I have a hobbyist group that meets one evening per week. The hobby is nowhere near related to my work, so I can disconnect myself from shop talk and socialize with people from a number of other backgrounds.

      Then Mr. Glomarization and I have a standing Friday date at our local pub. The bartenders know us by now, and we meet people from all over the country and even internationally because the pub is on a lot of “must-see” lists for tourists to our city.

    8. NeverNicky*

      Full time remote here and into my fifth year of it.

      I second the suggestions for finding social hobbies – I go to a craft group, two book related groups and also to local meet ups for my professional organisation.

      However, the thing that has had the biggest impact on my productivity and happiness is a site called Focusmate – it has the benefits of co-working but it’s via videolink. The human interaction at the start and end of each session may not be much, but it’s enough and has been a game changer for me after a tough year last year.

    9. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      It doesn’t help with the larger parts of your problem, but they make portable monitors! I saw someone use one at a convention once as a second laptop screen and have been debating getting one ever since. (Work doesn’t have a budget line for one-off tech requests like that, so it’d be something I’d have to buy out of pocket and haven’t quite talked myself into it.)

      I work best in an environment with other quiet people around, working, and not interrupting me rather than at home alone, but I haven’t figured out a good place to go for that either. In college I spent a lot of time in the library and computer labs because of that work style, but the public library is not really the same sort of vibe.

    10. M*

      Pick a small local cafe – small is key, independently-operated is a bonus – and become a regular. Tip well if you’re in the US, be friendly and chatty with the staff.

      Quality of interaction matters more than just being physically around people. So establish yourself somewhere with a routine, where you can actually get to know some people, and you’ll get more out of the blocks of time when you can work without a second screen for a bit.

  160. TV*

    The holiday season is coming up and I am considering being point man on our office white elephant gift exchange. We’ve had lackluster event for the last few years, especially last year, and I would like to improve the experience.

    Because it is work, we have some rules like items must be work appropriate INCLUDING no alcohol. The no alcohol rule went into effect last year and people lost their damn minds. People didn’t know what to bring so we ended up with a lot of “oh I found this in the closet” gifts and it just put a damper on things, especially for those that brought nice gifts.

    What sort of rules or guidelines have worked well for your office gift exchanges? I’m thinking of possibly doing a suggested dollar amount that the gift should be worth and maybe deciding on a theme (food items, board games, idk)?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We would riot, RIOT with a no-alcohol rule, so I’m not shocked that there was issues. I’m more shocked that they participated when that rule into effect. When they had a whiff of a “drink limit” a holiday party being talked about, people pulled out left and right. [Funny story, due to this low participation rate, the boss threw out the drink tickets and told us to go for it. The next year, someone said “So there’s a drink limit?” “No but I ask you to be responsible…” and everyone cheered.]

      They’re lazy though. This is simply the easiest thing in the world if you’re anywhere near a discount store of some sort. You go and get their pre-packed gift sets of hot sauce or hot chocolate or candles or whatever. It’s too easy these days to be that thoughtless and “oh I’ll just give you these socks I had in my closet I guess then.”

      An estimated amount would be perfect to. That gives people something to expect to spend as well, lots of people struggle with that. I would be leery of a food theme unless you’re aware of food issues among your crew. Ours has no allergies or restrictions minus our one vegetarian so no Hickory Farms for the vegetarian, thanks. But board games or something along those lines would be cool. I’m bad at this kind of theme thing so I don’t have any ideas to pitch in there though, I’m sorry.

      Our rules are “Nothing that will get a lawsuit filed”. SOME JACKWAGON once gave an adult novelty item at one party…and they banned the whole thing moving forward until we got new leadership with heads on their shoulders who could just say “We will fire you for that kind of BS, don’t be stupid like that person [who is no longer here because again, total jackwagon].”

      1. TV*

        Thank you! It’s public sector that is public facing so the director thought it looked bad to exchange alcohol. But it was a popular item so that led to a lot of lazy gifts and I think it would help the people who want to do it to have some guidelines.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah okay public sector really does make it less crazypants to me. We’re just a bunch of unwashed manufacturing folk over here ;)

          If you don’t go with a theme, you could do a “suggestions” kind of list. And point these wayward people in the direction of the frigging “gift” aisle that pops up in most places this time of year. I swear they are even prepackaged kind of stuff at the hardware stores, lol. Some people aren’t used to that kind of thing so they need their bells rang.

          We used to do a gift exchange with our recreational league and it was a bunch of older ladies. The amount of houseplants that were brought was awful for those of us who weren’t plant people but it’s better than the trash that’s in the closet.

    2. CAA*

      I would not try to go for a theme. You can specify something like “gifts should be new items in the $20 to $25 range, work appropriate, no alcohol”. Remember it’s optional and don’t bug people who aren’t opting in. You will probably end up with a smaller event for a couple of years, and that’s fine.

    3. #1 The Larch*

      I’d say to make it fair and fun have a dollar limit (say $15) and have a general theme like “office necessities” or “organization” or something that fits with the company culture. Last year I worked in a law office and was going to buy an appropriately themed Funko Pop, but was completely sold out. I ended up going with a detective story compilation book (which didn’t go over well). I’m not with that company any more, but i did end up purchasing the aforementioned Pop and now it’s on my current desk! :)

    4. littlelizard*

      Suggested dollar amount is good (and I think pretty standard for this kind of thing?). A theme for gifts seems excessive to me. I would feel annoyed being required to buy a food item to exchange for a different food item more than gifts in random categories. I feel like people will figure it out.

    5. Colette*

      A dollar amount is good – you could go $15-$20, or you could go much smaller (e.g. $2 – my family has started a thing where everyone buys something for $2 or less for everyone else, and it’s more fun that “real” gifts). A low limit (if you go that way) also takes alcohol off the table, and it means that people are less likely to be upset with what they got.

      Or you could provide everyone with identical gift bags and specify the item must fit in there – but if you do that, include the price limit as well so that no one buys an ipod like Michael Scott.

      For the items, I’d just remind them that it should be work-appropriate.

      1. Colette*

        Oh, and if you go for a super low limit, you could include themes like “magnetic” or “ornament” or “edible” – because the low limit reduces the stakes.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        $2 taking alcohol off the list you say? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, silly billy they have airplane bottles and 2 buck chuck [This is not actually 2 dollars anymore but there is some swill out there, ask me how I know. Don’t do it, it’s because I clearly rode the rails in another life.] ;)

        But I do like the lower limit as well. I’m thinking around $5. You can get some cute things. That’s usually a good thing for Secret Santa more than White Elephant setup though!

    6. Gimicky*

      If you do a theme, I would do something very general, like “Games” or “art” or “kitchenwares” (I include the last one only because at one of our white elephants, someone brought one of those rolling garlic mincer things–a little round case with blades inside and wheels, so you push it along the counter like a tiny car and it shreds the garlic. It was The Item that year.)
      Or, color, like “blue” or “white”.

      You may have some success with offering online shopping ideas in the organizational emails as well, as it will clear up the issue with finding time to run to a store. Amazon curates gift lists, which would be an interesting direction to point people in, as they have some very odd or novelty items for <$15.

    7. Wishing You Well*

      Here’s a different thought: If you’ve had lackluster events for the last few years, maybe your coworkers would rather just not. Please consider skipping it this year and see if anyone notices. Given how demanding end-of-year holidays are on people’s time and money, you might be doing everyone in the office a favor. Just a thought.

      2. TV*

        I should say, the event was still very well attended but a sizable number of people were upset with the gift they got. So it seems people are interested in it but don’t want garbage.

        1. yay november*

          “Not wanting garbage” is why I stopped participating in mine. There was never anything I particularly wanted, the whole thing seemed a little pointless. So I stopped participating and just watched. None of the presents I’ve seen since then have made me change my mind. When you have a low value, one of two things happen: the people who are very into it will put effort into finding cool stuff. The ones who aren’t into it will find some random trash or go to a dollar store and get some plastic shiny things and put a bow on it.

        2. Not All*

          I’d strongly recommend you be VERY CLEAR about what type of white elephant you are doing. It seems like it’s about 50/50 whether people consider “white elephant” to mean “gift exchange where you don’t know what you’re unwrapping but gifts are all supposed to be good” or to mean “gift exchange where gag gifts and junk are as likely or more than good stuff”. It shifts a little one way or another regionally, but it helps to be clear! It’s possible some of the worst gifts last year were from people who thought they were supposed to be “bad”.

          1. Filosofickle*

            Yes, this is good advice! I’ve often been out of sync on these. I’ve also given things I thought were the jokey bad kind and had people actually love them as good gifts, and vice versa.

            Personally, I hate gift swaps & secret santas of pretty much all stripes.

      3. WellRed*

        Dump the gifts. Certainly limit the dollar amount. Food is tricky, board games can be pricey (sorry to pick on your suggestions). Some other comments have interesting suggestions.

    8. Mr. McGillicuddy*

      What worked great at the startup I worked at (about 50 people) was the company bought white elephant gifts and there was a range of gifts from really crappy, to funny and to fairly nice.

      It was a blast because no one spent any time or money getting a present.

      We had a 3 Swap limit on stealing presents and I ended up with the highly-coveted lava lamp, which I proudly displayed in my Cube.

  161. Fragile*

    I am struggling a lot emotionally here.

    I started a new position about a month ago (same workplace, much higher level position) and I’m struggling. I’ve been working a lot of extra hours, including two weekends, so I decided to take one day off (today).

    I spent the whole morning trying to detox from work, and then as I was prepping the house for family coming into town, I got a text message on my personal cell phone from a direct report who wanted me to comfort her about how she did in a meeting yesterday. I just cannot emotionally care for some of these folks any more and I’ve obviously let her feel too comfortable reaching out to me. Getting the text message sent me into an emotional tailspin and I started hyperventilating and crying. I wasn’t panicked about this topic specifically as I deal with similar stuff from this employee all the time, but about the fact that I needed to totally separate from work today and getting pinged at all brought back all the shit I’ve been trying to slough off today.

    I know I need to set better boundaries with this person, and that’s on me. But I feel like I shouldn’t be panicking this much about one work text in the first place.

    Does anyone have any advice?

    1. Profane Pencils*

      To be honest, it sounds like you absolutely need to take some time, and I really, really, really strongly recommend seeing someone. That response to the text message sounds like a panic attack, which is about as red of a flag as you can get that you’re burnt out and need to take time.

      If you’ve been at the company for a while, even if you’re in the new position, I would think you have enough equity to take some time without the negative repercussions you’d have at a new workplace. Everything else comes second to finding that equilibrium; you can’t make well-thought-out decisions about direct reports, work responsibilities, or even your own health if you are completely wrung out.

      I’d recommend finding an online therapy resource, as you’ll be able to get in to see someone and find some emotional support faster than a traditional once-a-week option.

      Best of luck. That is a rough, rough space to be in.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I want to remind you that you’re new to this position and it’s overwhelming because it’s new. You haven’t gotten your groove yet and it takes awhile in a higher position to feel really comfortable, so your reaction and need to detach is normal. I’m glad you took the day off and I’m pretty livid that this employee has no boundaries, most people know that contacting someone on their personal line on their day off is not acceptable unless there’s an emergency. Her feelings aren’t a frigging emergency. So this person is so ridiculous but you know that.

      When you’re already stressed out, even one more straw on top of the boulders on top of your shoulders is going to be too much. So try to look at it that way and don’t beat yourself up over “just a text”.

      Also just delete her stupid text. That’s what I do when it’s something I can’t be fussed with. She can bring it up the next day and without a response, that speaks volumes to these kind of needy people. So just delete it and put the phone down if it happens again. You aren’t her emotional support animal, you’re her boss.

    3. Rick Tq*

      If you need to disconnect from work, disconnect. Tell your reports you aren’t available until you return then turn the work phone off, leave it on your dresser, or turn off all notifications.

    4. Fragile*

      Thank you for your responses. Normally my husband would talk me down from something like this but he’s in no-phone meetings at work today. Posting here was actually the first place I could think of where people might have some helpful thoughts. Reading your responses was validating. It’s hard to hear that I might need to seek some professional help but it really struck a chord so I think it was something I needed to hear. I will look into one of the online therapy options.

      1. Drew*

        There’s nothing wrong with seeking out help if you need it. Mental health is as important as physical health and there shouldn’t be any stigma about treatment for either one. (There shouldn’t be, but there often is. Please don’t let yourself avoid getting help when you need it because of it, though.)

        Internet hugs if you would like them and I hope things improve for you soon.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Everyone. Everywhere has emotions and needs help sometimes in some way. A professional is no different than leaning on a friend or family member in the end, they’re just experts in medical science and can have a lot of good tools in their trunk to help you get through your struggles. Loved ones are amazing and comforting but doctors have programs they can teach you and exercises that can be a great help that are crafted to your specific situation!

        You wouldn’t think twice about going into a doctor if you broke your arm or needed stitches. Just because you cannot sese the physical wound doesn’t mean it doesn’t need the same kind of care and attention. And not all medicine are surgery or pills!

      3. WellRed*

        In addition to therapy, take a lesson from your husbands no phone meetings day and disconnect. When you feel better, time to handle the employee boundaries, they sound exhausting.

      4. Profane Pencils*

        The thing about professional help is that we often think it makes us weak, or marks us as failures somehow, especially when it’s regarding mental health.

        It’s much more similar to physical health than people think. We’re all born with genetic predilections, and things happen to us in our lives that impact us in seen and unseen ways. We’ll think something is fine–working long hours; eating the pasta that’s been in the fridge for three days; not washing your hands /every/ time you cough–and next thing you know you’re burnt out, stuck on the toilet, with a head cold.

        We have control over our mental health the same way we have control over our physical health: all we can do is set ourselves up for success. But if someone else hasn’t washed their hands, or manages to say just the wrong thing at the wrong time, it affects us no matter how careful or strong we are.

        Best of luck with finding the right support. It’s an intimidating thing, but it can make a world of difference.

  162. Anon4This*

    Does anyone have experience with using personality testing as a hiring metric? My usually amazing, helpful, non-toxic boss wants to do this for one of our more challenging project teams to improve hiring results for them, and I’m having trouble getting on board.

    This particular team that is tough in terms of learning curve, hours required, and short deadlines – all of which is disclosed in detail in advance AND calculated in compensation and perks. That is obviously a challenging environment in which to work, even though the team is nice, inclusive, and good at expressing appreciation. We are having retention problems – so he wants to use a personality assessment to baseline the best employees on the team (smart, collaborative, work both smart and hard, good results) and use that assessment to find like-minded people who will be able to tolerate the craziness for at least a year, hopefully two.

    This is not a first solution – we have a detailed job description posted, doubled the staff on the team to mitigate hours, do hiring manager and peer interviewing, give the good/bad/ugly with an emphasis on the ugly, do skills-based/scenario-question hiring, pay hazard-rate + bonuses, provide perks, and offer more substantive work/advancement based on objective/documented criteria.

    I am 100% in the doing-the-same-thing-and-expecting-different-results-is-crazy camp, but, personality testing is not on my list of things to to try. Tell me this has some merit and is not the bad look/as ineffective as I think it is.

    1. Sleepy*

      I mean, there may be something to it in that tolerating a stressful situation well is a different trait than intelligence or skill or what we usually look for in hiring.

      I just don’t know that a personality test will give you that.

      Maybe looking for previous stress tolerance in hiring, both in targeted questioning and in conversations with references, would be better.

    2. yay november*

      Please don’t do personality testing for this. There’s nothing you can find out from there that would be helpful.

      I’m wondering how many failed hires you’ve had for this. Was it just one or two people who didn’t work out? Sometimes that happens. Maybe see if your candidates have worked successfully in places like this before?

      1. yay november*

        Oh and about doing the same thing and expecting different results: it’s not the same thing every time, though. Your pool of candidates will be different. It sounds like you’re doing improvements to your work environment, so also the environment they’re coming into is different. You don’t cross the same river twice and you don’t do the same hiring situation twice.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Personality tests are more useful to understand the team you work with to work better as a team, not for hiring purposes.

      I think maybe more in depth interviewing would probably help your situation better, and being as transparent as possible about the challenges of this role.

  163. Bunny Girl*

    I’m so petty. I’ve posted on here before that I really, really do not like spending time with my coworkers. Well our holiday party is coming up fairly soon. It’s over the lunch hour and you’re expected to be there even though you aren’t paid for it (our boss never considers the people who are hourly and thinks that because this is “social” of course we’ll be happy to go and not think of it as work!). I missed it last year because I had the plague. I was seriously considering having someone cough in my mouth the week before the party, but some plans changed at home and now we have a two month old puppy. And gosh darn it he needs to be let out over the lunch hour and I just can only pop in for a quick minute. Too bad. So sad. I’ve never seen a cuter excuse.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        You would think, but my boss doesn’t see it as “work.” He thinks it’s a “fun social event.”

        1. Stornry*

          “aw, darn, I’d love to be there but if I don’t let Dumpling outside….” [shrug and grimace] and show him a picture of your new little darling being his adorable self. If he can resist puppy-cuteness or doesn’t understand the need to avoid “accidents”, he’s not worth worrying about.

  164. gdsmk*

    Looking for some advice on giving feedback – as a person who hates confrontation want to check that my impulse for how to handle this is correct and not being driven by this hatred!

    I’ve had a few interactions lately with a very sweet but young / inexperienced member of our financial team that have caused me some concern that she’s not equipped to handle the responsibility she’s got – I’ve now had three separate instances where had I not been paying very close attention and checking her work, I would have missed out on fairly large expense reimbursements (most recently $1000!), and another time when she missed a step in a process of paying external consultants related to taxes – an error I caught, but very well could have not been paying attention. Each of these times she’s apologized and set things right, and I’ve made vague comments like “I wonder how we can get a process in place with some checks built in, for future situations when I may not catch this!” but haven’t really perceived that she’s taken these errors as a more systemic issue that needs addressing, or really that big of a deal. My worry is that it suggests she isn’t equipped / properly trained for the job and/or we don’t have enough redundancies built in to catch those kind of mistakes – so who knows how often they’re happening with others who may be paying less attention.

    I’m senior to her in title / tenure but really have no authority over here, totally separate teams, bosses, etc. Who do I go to with this? I feel bad going to her boss (who I do have a working relationship with) or my boss as I feel like I may be unnecessarily elevating something / getting her in trouble / going around her which I don’t mean to do – but also don’t totally know if it’s my role to give her direct feedback like “how are we addressing this to make sure it doesn’t keep happening.” Would welcome any thoughts! Thanks in advance.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      These are huge issues that her boss needs to be told about next time. You took it to her and they still happen. It’s time to escalate. Expense reimbursement and paying consultants properly is not just a big deal, it’s a huge deal.

      Something to keep in mind is that it’s a department that has a very low error rate that’s acceptable for a very specific reason [you’re ef’ing with people’s money and when you do that, it causes people to get angry very quickly, you can lose a consultant this way.]

      I think you may be approaching it too lightly because you’re being vague. But in reality, you’re not her boss so being soft isn’t necessarily bad, since it’s not your job to crack down on her.

      This isn’t about getting anyone in trouble. It’s about asking for assistance to remedy a very big issue that’s happening. So look at it that way when you bring it to her bosses attention.

      I would include the fact you’ve talked to her prior and that it hasn’t helped, that she seems to not be seeing the gravity of her errors and therefore continuing to be sloppy. She may not be cut out for this, which isn’t your fault and it’s not even her fault. But she needs this “come to Jesus” moment.

      I goofed once and got a “This is real money we’re dealing with, not monopoly money” lecture. Which made me cry, not going to lie about that. But I was also 19 and a little ball of stress, looking back on it, it helped a lot to put my job into perspective. It’s not just a bunch of numbers on a spreadsheet and a bunch of random receipts. THATS REAL LIVE MONEY and it needs to be treated like you’re in someone’s bank vault handing out gold coins, not like you’re just on the computer kind of thing.

  165. Sad and Scared*

    Any advice on a manager who takes it out on a sibling (yes, we get along but don’t work together) over a fight they had with you?

  166. Princesa Zelda*

    I suspect the answer is “nothing, just call out sick” but here it goes:

    I’m going to school full-time for a semester, and I was able to cut my work to part-time to accommodate it. Generally, I go to class M/W/F and have work T/Th/S/S. (I know it’s not sustainable long-term; it’s only until Christmas.) However, I have a mandatory work event on a Friday in December. I also have a presentation worth 10% of my grade on the same day. The work event is professional development stuff, and I really want to go because it will help me grow in my job and my career in a way that a 20-minute group presentation about Greece very much won’t. As soon as I knew the date (Sunday), I immediately e-mailed my professor and then I went to his office hours on Monday to explain the situation and ask to present on Wednesday the 4th or any other day that works for him. He said he’d have to think about it because it wouldn’t be fair for me to be able to move my presentation when other students can’t. He’s really big on equality; in the syllabus, he says that he does not accept any reasons for late work because he’s not in a position to fairly judge the relative magnitude of unfortunate events, so he accepts none in the name of equality. He also assigned groups and days randomly without any ability to switch in the name of equality. If it’d been up to me, I would have been the first to present and gotten it over with in September.

    My boss and grandboss are willing to work with me to accommodate a half-day at the event or even let me call out sick if I have to. I go to school on the opposite side of Cityville from where the training is held. I’m just so angry that I’d have to miss out on valuable networking and career development for my actual career to get a good grade in an elective class.

    Has anybody else been in a similar situation? What else can I do to try to negotiate with my professor? Is there any obvious solution that I’m missing?

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      I’d point out to the prof that
      “Genuine equality means not treating everyone the same, but attending equally to everyone’s different needs.”
      Really I would go to the profs dept chair and ask for advice – you think you are following professional norms, are willing to present early, etc but prof does not have a way to address this.

      Sorry the prof is being such a pickle.

    2. WellRed*

      This makes me mad. School can be so difficult when you also have a regular job. I think your prof is treating you unequally, in favor of, I assume, traditional students when it’s such a simple fix. What exactly does he see as the problem in letting you change dates?

  167. littlelizard*

    No advice beyond taking your workplace up on half-day or full-day absence, but I do want to say that professors like that are a PITA. Having a blanket lack of flexibility is “equal” I guess, but in reality, the person with no drastic issues and the person with the dead grandma or whatever are *not* going to have equal experiences in the class, but it would be nice to try to lessen the burden on more-burdened students. It strikes me as just laziness and trying to minimize the teaching part of their job as much as possible.

    2. Princesa Zelda*

      He specifically mentions the dead grandma in his syllabus! I actually had my grandparents and my uncle die during finals week in a semester where I was working instead of in school and it makes me so angry that if I’d been in classes I would have had to pretend to be hunky-dory during that incredibly painful time. At least with my job I was able to take 3 days of bereavement and cover it with sick time.

  168. MonteCristo85*

    Can your company charge you for both your and the employers portion of the withholdings taxes on a bonus?

    1. CoffeeLover*

      I don’t see why not. In reality, they’re always doing this but they communicate the post-employer tax amount to you (Like when they quote a salary, it’s not what the employer is paying for you, it’s what you get). So they can say, “you’re getting 10k bonus” and that usually means 10k + employer tax (on their end), but in your case it means 10k – employer tax. It’s a bit demoralizing to do it that way, so I’m not sure what their motivation would be. But unless you have a contract saying you should get X bonus, I don’t see how you could fight it legally. I think you could go to your manager and say, “when you communicated 10k, I was expecting the 10k to be after employer tax. I was surprised to only receive 7k once the employer tax was deducted.”

      1. Ina Lummick*

        Really salaries the US are stated as what you get net? Where I am (UK) they are all pre tax, and also it sounds like you get more money readily there too…although that might just be the exchange rate partly.. but I don’t think I’ll ever earn over £30k

        1. CoffeeLover*

          Salaries are also communicated as pretax in the US. But when we say pretax thats pre income tax (aka the tax you pay as an employee). From the employers perspective, they have to pay the gross salary (net + income tax) they give to you plus employee tax (this tax goes towards government funded social welfare programs like unemployment). It’s weird to communicate a number to an employee that includes this tax that employers pay as it’s not norm.

          I’m pretty sure it’s the same in the UK (I’m actually living in Europe). And yes, US salaries are way higher than European salaries that’s for sure.

    2. Enough*

      I would say no. This is compensation just like your paycheck. They would be responsible for the employer part. But are you sure this what they did? Depending on how the bonuses is accounted for in the system you could have more federal taxes taken out than normal. Also they could be taking out deductions for some of the items that come out if your regular check.

      1. Rick Tq*

        My experience is bonus checks will have taxes taken out assuming you get that check every pay period, so they can be at rates you don’t expect. I work at a small enough company I’m able to specify the federal and state tax rate to be used for deductions for my bonus or commission checks. SSA, Medicare, and state SDI are all a fixed percentage so no issues there.

        SSA should be 6.2% and Medicare 1.45% (or so). If your check is different you may get a refund at tax time. you are only responsible for your piece of SSA and Medicare, your employer is responsible for their half regardless…

        I’m not a tax accountant but that’s been my experience doing my own taxes for years.

      2. MonteCristo85*

        They actually sent out an email ahead of the bonus (it’s a one-time, one-off special bonus) letting us know to expect a higher tax rate on the bonus because of this. It sounds very fishy to the entire finance staff, and the CFO is looking into it. I just wondered what other experiences with this were. We have a long standing tradition of HR/Payroll trying to do odd (or illegal) things with the pay, and we have to sort it out afterward, so I may just be extra suspicious.

        Our regular annual bonus is not taxed like this, only this special one that has different funding.

  169. Anna G.*

    Had a weird moment at work the other day. I was late in leaving and ran into another coworker also leaving. And another. And another. Before I know it, 5 out of 7 of my coworkers have formed a gaggle. Turns out, the majority of my team gathers at the end of the day and walks out together.

    I waited a bit, but ended up walking ahead on my own because they started up conversations with each other. It just felt bizarre, like I was in an alien reality. I’ve worked at this place for 1.5 years, and I realized in that moment that I have no idea who my coworkers are.

    To be fair, it’s not really a new realization. And I know some things, but only ever after the fact.

    For example, a coworker missed some work to go to her daughter’s wedding – and that’s how I found out she’s married and has a daughter. Coworker missed work a few months back? Only recently found out it was for a death in the family. That sort of thing.

    I don’t know why I’m posting. I’m not really in need of advice because I don’t see things changing anytime soon. And, to be honest, I’m pretty okay with how things are.

    1. CoffeeLover*

      I struggled with this at my previous job and wanted to share my experience with you. I never really connected with my coworkers and I played a narrative in my head like “well this is my job, not my life, and I want to have professionally distant relationships with my coworkers. I don’t need to be their friend. It doesn’t bother me.” But honestly it bothered me. And if I’m really honest, it made me less happy about my job and life in general (since we spend so much time at work). It was hard for me to admit because I identify as an independent introvert, but I think all of us want to feel like we belong. I changed jobs and am now in a place where I’ve built friendly relationships and truly enjoy talking to my coworkers. It has made a huge difference in my everyday and in how much I enjoy my job as a whole (I also think I’m performing better). I think getting to know my coworkers on a personal level has been hugely valuable to my own well-being. It’s such a subtle thing, but I think it can have a big impact.

      I think it’s worth taking the extra time (spending those minutes before you leave the office) to get to know your coworkers. I see it as an investment that has a big payoff in the end (which is personal happiness). In my case, I realized I wasn’t really fitting into the office culture (something that can be really hard to identify). My problem solved itself when I found a job where I actually felt like I fit in naturally.

      That was a bit long and rambley, but I wanted to share since you sound a lot like me in my old job. I wonder if it bothers you more than you let on since you’re writing here. And I want to say that it’s normal to feel that way, but also that you can change it for the better (by either spending the time to get to know your current coworkers, or trying a new place where you fit in more naturally). Hope this isn’t just me projecting!

    2. Anon Work Friendless*

      I’m currently about to leave a position where I have not made any new work friends. This is a huge change from everywhere else I have worked, but my current company does have a reputation for soulless corporatism. Anyway, I think it’s totally normal to feel disconnected in this sort of environment.

  170. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    The company managing the office diner decorated the place in a Mexican Día de los Muertos style, but with black “Happy Halloween” signs. Even weirder, the client facing employees had their face painted a Mexican calavera. Now, this is not Mexico and festivities like Halloween are at least considered “foreign” and at worst “colonizing”, so my workmates and I were a bit confused because it felt like they were trying too hard to be… cool? Some people even wondered whether this was a case of cultural appropriation, but most of us didn’t understand the point of it.

    1. Anon Vet*

      I get a bit twitchy when I see Día de los Muertos makeup and decor for Halloween. It’s not just Halloween! Yes, it’s a multi-day holiday that begins on All Hallows Eve, but it continues to All Souls Day. While the things associated with Día de los Muertos can be very beautiful they’re often used with no concept of what is being celebrated or their meaning. I would agree that there’s some clueless cultural appropriation going on.

  171. My Job is not what I thought - treating me like an Admin!!*

    So I realized I was hired on for a role I thought was inside sales – however we are an office of 7 and I realized I am also the go to Office MAnager – I did not know I was signing up for this, but apparently they used to have an office manager but she left we hired an office Director and then they hired me, the Inside Sales Rep – but now I am also obtaining all of the admin responsibilities. My boss (the director) encourages it. Should I be upset? Should I say something?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You should speak up. You’re not an admin and they need to stop encouraging you to take on those responsibilities

      IDK how an “Office Director” is anything other than a cooler less diluted name for Office Manager. The Office Director may need an Office Assistant role to be added on but in now way should that be tacked onto inside sales.

  172. New Celiac*

    I just received a diagnosis of Celiac’s Disease this afternoon from my doctor. I’m reeling a little bit, but wanted to know how to handle it about the office. We’re a really open group with food, and coworkers often buy pastries or bring in other food (myself included) for one another when they have a success. We’re a very multicultural group so trying different cuisines has been fun too. How should I let them know I can’t really participate any more after 4 years of eating everything people share? Its a small office but we have Slack (which is how a coworker let us know they had become vegan when we were planning a food thing), or would anyone suggest just telling people as it comes up when I don’t eat what is being offered? I really don’t want to change how we do things or make anyone feel like they have to spend more ( feel like the GF stuff can get quite pricy, but I’ve been GF for about 3 hours now so what do I know).

    1. CoffeeLover*

      “Hey everyone – I just found out I have a gluten allergy, which means no more pastries for me!”

      I think it’s fine to send something like that through slack. I don’t think you should feel like you’re inconveniencing people. I’m sure they’d like to know so they can include you as much as possible. It’s really not an imposition. There are plenty of gluten free treats out there and food intolerances/allergies are so common these days. No one will think anything of this.

    2. Jules the First*

      Welcome to the celiac club!
      There are plenty of food things you can share with your coworkers that are gluten free – my team at work started bringing veggies and dip (or fruit and dip) to team meetings and birthdays to accommodate me when they also brought pastries, and it turns out there are lots of people on the team who’d rather eat something other than cake.

      Stock your desk with a few shelf-stable snacks (mine has single-serving tuna cans, rice cakes, single-serving peanut butter, Lara bars, and jerky) for when you get caught in meetings or have to work late. Next, do some research and find a couple of nearby lunch spots where you can get something gf off the menu (sushi, mexican, indian, greek, or italian are all good starting points) for when people want to go out.

      You’ve got this!

    3. LilySparrow*

      Tell people next time there’s a plan around food. I think there’s a lot more awareness around celiac than there used to be, and that it can take a long time to get properly diagnosed.

      Special GF substitute foods can be pricey, yes. They are also the least satisfying and most likely to be disgusting. But unless you are so sensitive that you must avoid even incidental cross-contamination, it’s not that hard to eat normal food without gluten.

      The classic examples would be a steak with baked potato and salad. Or beans & rice. As long as you check there’s no gluten in seasonings or salad dressing, you’re fine.

      With the popularity of Whole30, Paleo, and Keto, it shouldn’t be that hard to get something like a salad with chicken for lunch.

      At first, all you can think of are the things you can’t eat – bread, pasta, pizza, cake. They are certainly tasty and convenient, but there’s a whole world of good food outside those categories. Hidden additives are the trickiest to avoid, but you will soon find your safe options.

      I’m glad you know the problem now, and will start feeling better very soon!

      1. Fikly*

        She’s Celiac, so she is so sensitive that she must avoid incidental cross-contamination. So all the advice here, while well meaning, is actually really dangerous.

        Whether or not she gets symptoms from it (some do, some don’t) it’s destroying her intestines and increasing her cancer risk.

        Signed, a Celiac who was inches from death and spent 5 days in the ICU from incidental cross-contamination.

        2. Lilysparrow*

          I’m so sorry that happened to you!
          Sensitivity can vary – I know some celiacs who don’t have to be so careful. Others do. Which is why I mentioned it.

          Obviously I wouldn’t expect a sane adult to take medical advice from strangers on the internet over their own doctor. Just general reassurance that there is food in the world they can eat without going bankrupt.

          1. Fikly*

            The issue is not actually that sensitivity varies – that’s a common misconception. Symptoms that are noticeable vary. The damage being done internally is always happening. Some people just don’t realize it’s happening. It’s called silent Celiac.

  173. Tangled Ball Of Yarn*

    An interview question on the inevitable, “Why do you want to work here/leave your position?”

    I’m the director of a public agency that receives funding from my city and county (think Keep Teapot Settings Beautiful). We don’t receive dedicated funding such as taxes. Each year is a production begging not to have our funding cut and explaining we cannot increase services with decreased funds. Our community and demand on services keeps growing but lack of monetary support and outright hostility from politicians has worn me out.

    I’ve applied for another job (Keep Teapots Beautiful) that would pay more, have more financial support, and be less stressful. I’m not naive. I know there would be stress, but not the same level. It’s on the other side of the US, in a place I’ve never lived, but would like to live. Their previous director left for a bigger agency in another state.

    So, how would you say, “I’d love to work here” without saying because it would be less stress? Or, while most people want to move to bigger agencies, I don’t. I want smaller. I can honestly say I accomplished some major projects with our agency. I’ve been a leader in our state Teapot Association. I’m proud of it but it’s not what I love most about the work.

    Am I overthinking this? Did I just answer my own question?

    1. yay november*

      I think you might be fine with just saying “I want to go to a place that has a more stable financial footing”. It’s like going from a grant-funded or temp-position to one where you don’t have to scramble for money every year, I think people will understand.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would play up the fact you really like the smaller verses bigger agency. Don’t make it about stress but the fact that you’re looking for a new opportunity and you’re excited about that area and being able to work with a small team, after having been submerged in a larger one these years.

      I would work around and try to avoid mention of the financial issues, yes it’s true but they don’t need that level of truth. You can keep that to yourself and make it about their organization, not the previously one you left.

      Lots of people do downsize, it’s really not true that everyone wants to keep getting into bigger and bigger places. I sure don’t!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Tangent: You could say you are not a fan of bigger places because you prefer A, B and C. Where A, B and C are something this new place offers or naturally occurs in smaller places. Note, this answers the question of why aren’t you applying at bigger places. It does not really handle the question of why you are leaving current employer.
        Basically they want to know why you aren’t going to fly the coop in a short time.

        I know of people who just do not want to keep working for larger and larger places. Their new employer is very grateful for that and the bosses call themselves “lucky”. Do have some answers in the back of your mind to the question, “How do we keep you here once we hire you?”

      2. Tangled Ball Of Yarn*

        Thank you. This is always the hardest question for me. Being able to work in a smaller community would definitely be an advantage.

  174. Rectilinear Propagation*

    This person discovered that there are cameras in the bathrooms at work!
    https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/147215/discovered-that-my-new-job-has-cameras-in-the-restrooms

    Most people think the OP should go to the cops straight away while one person says to go to management first.
    I honestly think I would have just told the entire office immediately once I found a camera in a vent above the toilets because I wouldn’t want anyone going in there once I saw it. I would have been too freaked out to worry about who should know first.

    1. Ron McDon*

      Wow,that’s horrible! I agree, I would have told everyone, immediately.

      I wonder if the fact that they’re new is what’s giving them pause?

      I’d love to find out what happened!

      1. valentine*

        I would tell the police first, so no one immediately goes and contaminates or destroys the evidence.

  175. Tan France*

    If you are going to school in another country and have a student visa that doesn’t allow you to work in that country, is it still legal to work remotely for a company in your country of origin? Is it legal to work remotely on a business that’s registered in your country of origin (if you’re staying in that other country for several years)?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would inquire with the government of the country you’re in, this probably really varies depending on who issued you student visa.

      In the US remote workers are subject to their local laws. So I’d assume that given the much stricter layout in other countries, it may not be acceptable if you’re residing in a country to work for your home country without the proper authorizations. And it’s better to be safe than sorry here, since you don’t want to get into trouble and get your student visa revoked! Perhaps you can start with talking to your university or wherever you’re using your student visa, they may help you navigate the system best.

    2. Pam*

      I would also talk to your school- in the US, it would be the department that holds your SEVIS record.

    3. M*

      In general, no.

      Think about it this way. Your student visa entitles you to be a resident in Country B (where you are studying). If it *allowed* you to work in Country B, would you still pay taxes in Country A (your home country)? No. Because you’re not resident in Country A, you’re resident in Country B, and taxes attach to your country of residence. (The key exception to this is the US, which considers all of its citizens to have some tax liability regardless of where they live, and it’s a complicated mess that you should talk to an actual accountant about if it applies to you.)

      In the same way: you’re going to be resident in Country B. The local labour laws, tax laws, employment regulations – they all apply to you. The ones from Country A won’t bind you or any employer while you live in Country B. If a company in Country A wanted to hire you directly while you were in Country B, they’d need to go through *all* of the same legal compliance steps as a company based in Country B – they can’t just hire you as if you were resident in Country A.

      Now, if you *weren’t* resident in Country B – for example, you were on a trip there, just travelling around, you’d generally be in a different situation. You could keep working for your employer back in Country A – though you’d have to be very, very careful to navigate the specific visa conditions for non-resident visitors to Country B. This is how “digital nomads” keep working – they’re not staying anywhere long enough to be legally resident. This is not you, your student visa is a residency visa – no matter how you’d prefer to see it, Country B will see you as legally resident there. If you did try to keep working remotely as if you were resident in Country A, and were caught, it’s extremely likely that Country B would cancel your visa and deport you.

  176. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Yes! Yes! Yes!!!! One of my crew asked me about the Paid Family Medical Leave Act that we’ve been paying into this year and is supposed to go live for benefits in 2020.

    1. I feel useful, this is shameful but sometimes I need it.

    2. Should be 1 if I weren’t a horrible self centered monster…but at my core, well.

    Not but my real reason for being excited is that this is becoming knowledge among workers in this state, especially on the level that we’re at [production, lots of people in manufacturing fail to know their rights and programs out there to utilize.], this pleases me greatly. I want this to be a program that people see is a good thing to utilize as necessary. In this case it’s for parental leave [yay paid parental leave!] and I made sure to make sure to let him know it’s for if a person gets sick or injured and they blow out their sick leave. He’s super excited and so am I.

    Dear Everyone In Washington State, it’s COMING, we’ve been paying for 10 months, just 2 more months until this monkey is off our back, worrying about how you pay your bills if you break your leg and can’t work for a month when you’re the bread-winner and don’t have access to short term disability insurance. I know it’s sure a load off my mind and I’m one of the last people who need to worry but I have literal nightmares of being rendered penniless and ending up in a homeless encampment.

    PS It covers all businesses, even ones the feds don’t touch that are under 50 employees. But yeah, sadly it doens’t protect jobs at that lower level but in reality, most small businesses take so long to be able to replace people that your job security is still somewhat there if you don’t work for utter ogres who suck.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Well this is interesting.

      Does it only kick in if ST disability does not pay? How long does it cover? And is it 100% of pay or a partial percent?

      What does “jobs athe the lower level” mean?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’s 12 weeks. It’s the same as federal law. It is a portion of your wages, up to $1000 a week. They haven’t released all the nitty gritty details at this point unfortunately. They’re releasing a benefits calculator at some point per their website [paidleave dot wa dot gov]

        And it’s through the Employment Security Department, same folks who do unemployment, it’s the same kind of system. You apply through them and they process the request, they also are the ones who release the payments since we’re all paying taxes on it as we speak, it’s a joint fund.

        It’s after you’ve exhausted your PTO, I don’t know what their rules are about if you have disability insurance. I assume it’s the “last” place you get to tap into given the structure that they’ve released.

        I mean it doesn’t have built in protections for your job if your company has less than 50 employees. But they do have incentives for smaller businesses in place to try to get people to just hire a temp if necessary or adjust their current workers to accommodate the leave [helps to take care of OT costs and overhead that’s associated with being down that person’s labor].

        So that was a bad way of wording it, it sounds like I’m talking about low-level jobs, like entry level kind of jobs. No, I meant business size. We have “tiers” of business size for things around here, including minimum wage for Seattle. Bad verbiage on my part.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Am grinning, not bad verbiage, rather more like “talking excitedly”.
          I get it now, thanks. This is cool. Twelve weeks is really good, that could help a lot of people. I can think of times in my life where if I had 12 paid weeks off it would have made a huge difference in things.

  177. Lost in the Library*

    So, I’ve been struggling to find a librarian position after getting my MLIS this past April. It’s been rough. My province is a disaster at the moment and everything is getting cut, so I’m reaaaally trying to come to terms with the fact that I’ll never get a librarian job. Join the club, eh?

    Anyway, the hours at the school I work at have been CUT in half. I found out about this two weeks ago, and I still feel like I’ve been kicked in the gut. I know that it’s not “personal” and it’s because of the government’s budget… but I can’t help but feel like it was personal? I don’t know how to explain. Ever since finding out about this, I think I’ve been acting like a petulant brat at work. I just hate EVERYONE. I am so mad at EVERYONE else for still having a full time job. Like, with this on top of my dismal job search. I want to cry. I hate myself so much for all the poor choices I’ve made up to this point. Why the fuuuuck did I think becoming a librarian was a good idea? I clearly ignored all the “DANGER” “DON’T DO THIS” warning signs. I cannot think of another profession to join that would be easier to find employment in. Should I have studied business? Should I become an accountant? I’m 31 and I feel like any chance I’ve ever had to get a decent job is o-v-e-r and now I have to work at this shitty school, that I hate, at part time for the rest of my goddamn life! I guess my question IS… how can I keep a “good attitude” at work and not get fired lol? I feel like I’m simmering with anger all day. I am sooo envious of everybody else. It’s so embarrassing knowing that I’ll never get a good job and all these people are relatively secure, while I’m just hanging by a thread career-wise.

    I can move around the province to get a library job, but I can’t move across the country. I’m the caregiver for my elderly mother (Which… is another question entirely) and I just want to scream.

    1. Jules the First*

      You need a break. Like, yesterday. You have waaaaaaaay too much on your plate and you need to take some time for you. Can you get respite care for your mom (even for a few hours) and take some vacation so you can go do something that feeds your deeper self?

      Longer term, life is not over because you are 31 and have a shitty job. (I promise). You just need to get yourself to a place where you’re not so drained and harried that you can’t see the view for the horse shit. Therapy might help, but it might also just be one more thing to fit into your calendar right now, so my vote is for self care first.

      1. Lost in the Library*

        I have to say, that on the other side of how shitty hours being cut are… I am honestly fantasizing about how to use all of my newly found “free time.” I’ve negotiated my new hours so I don’t work Fridays, which I couldn’t resist. I still have my health benefits, so it’s time to get a massage during the day if I want! I can finally join the gym! I’m in therapy and I feel like it’s beneficial only to a certain point because I feel like I have soooooo many “issues” right now.

        Yeah, my mom is just a really difficult person. She doesn’t need in-home care so much as like… she should just be in an assisted living facility and she doesn’t want to do that. She can take care of her needs, more or less. I’m just the one that has to take care of the house, buy her groceries, etc. Which I think I can do from a small distance (maybe 4-hrs away), so I can visit during every other weekend). I just get overwhelmed thinking about how she’s sooo stubborn and wants to stay in a house she can’t take care of.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Parents can really be a huge drain as they wind down through their final years. The first rule is not to allow yourself to become injured. And injury can mean financially, physically, or emotionally. Do what you have to do to keep yourself above water. Think of it this way, if you are laying in a hospital bed, how much are you going to be able to do for your mom? Not too much, right? Likewise if you are totally broke, you can’t do much for your mom if you can’t buy gas to drive to her house.
          Only you know how much you can do, no one else can set that boundary for you. (Although, I would have been very happy to let others draw stark black lines for me when I went through this.)
          One thing to consider is figuring out how to drag other people into this mix. It could be a neighbor who keeps an eye. It could be a doc who you call and chat with. The problems are at their worst when it is just the parent and the adult child trying to keep everything afloat. The more people you pull into the mix and the sooner you pull them in, the better off it is for the both of you.

          There is something about intense elder care that can make a person irritable at work. You have the added layer of having your hours cut. It’s pretty understandable that you are upset. Please consider taking short (almost) daily walks to help disperse some of that energy that comes with the (justifiable) upset. This could be 15 minutes at lunch or ten minutes after dinner, whatever you come up with as a good idea. It’s amazing how over time this can really help with the sorting process that you are going through, even if you only do it every other day or something like that.

      2. Morning Reader*

        I second the idea of taking a break. Do you get vacation time? A week off might help you reset your perspective.

        Going part time might be an opportunity too. Can you look for other part time jobs, either in information adjacent fields or something totally different? Even waitressing or retail might give you a break from the library world and bring in some bucks in the meantime. I’ll also suggest freelancing or contract work. (I did some indexing years ago, project based; I’m sure that field has changed tremendously but it still exists.) i knew children’s librarians who had their own storytelling business, they did children’s parties and events. Caregiving (regularly or occasionally) can also fill gaps…. would doing respite for other adult caregivers, or after school kid-minding fit your schedule?

        As for the mom situation… she doesn’t want to move and she doesn’t want to go into assisted living. Could you look for jobs outside the province, and when you find one tell her, here’s your choices. Move into assisted living here, move with me and move into assisted living there, find someone else to do the tasks I’ve been doing and stay here, or move with me (into nearby or shared housing) and continue living independently. Just spitballing here but your geographical constraint might be overcome.
        Good luck! Please don’t feel that your library degree is wasted. Like a law degree, the skills and knowledge can be applied in a variety of settings even if you are not a practicing lawyer or librarian.

        I feel like this thread should be warning to anyone considering library school. It’s not a bad field but often (maybe even usually) you have to move to get a decent job or a job at all. This should be more widely understood, as it in in academic circles. If you want a professorship, most likely you will have to move. In medicine, most often your residency will take you somewhere else. In publishing you might have to move to NYC, for film related professions, you might have to move to LA. “Librarian” should be added to this list of usually-have-to-relocate-for professions. You can’t get a job in your home town until the librarian there retires or dies… even then the local powers that be might eliminate or downsize the library, so no guarantees. If you live near a library school, there are many other local graduates you have to compete with for the few jobs, so it’s convenient when you are in school but impossible once you are out.

  178. The Ginger Ginger*

    Late to the party but – can anyone recommend a place to get small legal documents translated into French? Like Terms of Use and Privacy Policies. Looking for quality over low cost, so not looking for places like Fiverr.

    1. Reliquary*

      I know someone who does translation work like this, and is very skilled, but I don’t know how to connect you with her. She’s a freelancer.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      In the U.S., call your state and/or local bar association legal referral service (use that phrase as your search term).

    3. Teapot Translator*

      It depends if you want French (Canada) or French (France). There are slight differences, but it’s more about your target audience is.
      I do translation into French (Canada) and I have experience with Terms of Use and Privacy Policies.

  179. help me quit a professional group*

    I have been a member of a professional organization for over 25 years volunteering at a national level. It is expensive. Time consuming. And necessary to achieve promotion at my work. It looks like I will hit the highest band at work this coming spring and therefore don’t need to do it for that. There are other professional groups that are more aligned with future work that I would rather spend my time and cash. I will miss my professional colleagues but realize that perhaps now I am on a different path.
    My committee work is finished and I don’t have another appointment so now would be a good time to walk away.
    My only regret at this point is the young professionals that I have been mentoring. Do I owe them an explanation?
    Do I need to say anything to people who may ask if I am going to the conference? I can still go to the conferences for professional development, I just won’t be a member.

    1. Sara(h)*

      About the young professionals you’ve been mentoring, the right thing to do is to explain to them very succinctly that due to other commitments, you no longer have the bandwidth to remain a member of the organization, and that you’ve enjoyed mentoring them, etc. It would be a kindness to offer to stay in touch by email if you are able and willing to do that, and to meet for an occasional coffee or something if you have that kind of relationship with these mentees.
      For the conference, when someone asks you whether you’re going, whether or not you should mention the change in your membership status depends on whether this be an important piece of information to the person asking. Would they want to know that you aren’t a member any more, and/or would they be disappointed to learn of this later or from someone else? If yes, then mention this change when you answer about the conference. If the person wouldn’t care whether you’re a member or not, then it’s fine to leave it out.

  180. Michelle*

    I have seven years of experience in my profession and I have a great resume. I am a top performer in my job, and I just received a decent performance raise. However, considering my experience, degree, and a comparison to other similarly situated professionals in my field in my area, I am underpaid. There is no reason why I should not be able to make (at least) ten to twenty thousand more than I am currently making. I have recently been applying to jobs that list salary ranges I am interested in, and I have no difficulty landing interviews. I’ve even had a couple job offers/tentative offers. In both cases, potential employers told me they can’t go higher than “x” amount of salary, which is on the low end of the salary range they listed in their job announcement, and very close to what I am already making. For example, if the salary range is listed as $59,000-$89000, they offer $64,000, and say they can’t go any higher than that on the salary. I always ask for the salary I want anyway, and explain that my request is based upon the salary range they included in their job announcement. One employer offered to come up a few thousand more dollars in response, but came nowhere close to the middle of the posted salary range, and stated that that was as far as the budget would allow. I am irked that I have twice been misled by stated salary ranges into thinking I was applying for a job where I could make enough money to justify leaving my current employer. It is a waste of my time as a mid-level professional for an employer to bait me into an interview with a large salary range, and then claim that they do not have enough money in their budget to offer me a decent salary. Am I expecting too much or what?

    1. Ron McDon*

      Of, that’s frustrating.

      To be frank, it seems that what the companies are saying is that they’ve budgeted 59,000 – 89,000 for the job, but feel that you’re *worth* 64,000.

      Have they known your current salary at the time of making an offer? That can sometimes make them stick at a lower level, which is completely unfair.

      I wonder if perhaps this *is* the common salary for your job and experience? Were you truly comparing like with like when you researched what other people are being paid?

      1. Michelle*

        Yep, they knew my current salary. I am at the level where I have the experience necessary to go into management (I frequently perform management tasks without the title or pay). I think perhaps the problem is that I have been applying for jobs that would be lateral moves for me instead of aiming for management positions. They must be assuming I would be happy enough with a small bump that they could get away with giving me a crap offer. At any rate, I’ve decided to stick to applying for jobs where I am happy with the bottom end of the salary range listed if one is listed.

  181. Himalayan Pink Sea Salt*

    Need advice from project managers (or adjacent).

    I’ve been at my company for five years now. I started as an admin, moved up to a project coordinator, and then project manager.

    I’ve been applying to new companies as a project manager, but I am nervous that the skills I’ve gained at my current company won’t transfer. In other words, I have a lack of perspective about what project managers do at other companies. I also have a fear that at a new job, they’re just gonna throw me in and be like, “Well you already know what you’re doing have fun bye.” I know that this is silly on some level because even managers and people at a higher level get some sort of training.

    I understand this is probably imposter syndrome, but I’m just hoping that maybe somebody here can share what it was like joining a new company as a project manager so I can be more realistic.

    Thank you!

    1. CM*

      I think there are three possible scenarios to consider.

      One is the scenario where the company you’re going to has a really strict, standardized process in place, like Agile or something. Normally they mention that in the job ad and ask for someone certified in whatever process they’re using, so it shouldn’t be a surprise, but you might want to double-check what their current system is in an interview (and avoid getting hired into situations where you’re expected to be super knowledgeable about a specific process you haven’t used — this would be your nightmare “you already know what you’re doing so bye” scenario).

      Two is a scenario where the company doesn’t follow a specific standardized process, and they just kind of have their own way of doing things. This is probably a good scenario for you, because it’s totally reasonable to take some time to get to know how the existing process typically works, what people like and don’t like about it, etc. I wouldn’t expect training, and you’d want to go into it confident that you know the basic steps that need to happen to plan and execute a project* but there would generally be a grace period where you can hang around and ask people questions about what they do currently, like, “Do you normally have a formal kickoff meeting?” or “Who is normally responsible for X?” Every organization that’s not following a standardized process does their own project management a little differently, so it won’t make you look weird to not know.

      Three is the scenario where they’re not following a standardized process and they kind of don’t have a process and you’re expected to create one. This could be either good or bad depending how confident you feel. It’s still totally reasonable for this to involve a discovery period where you’re just kind of hanging out asking people what they typically do and how projects typically go, but there’s more of an expectation that you feel confident in identifying what needs to be different in order to build a stronger process.

      * If you need to feel more confident that you know all the steps, reading a few project management books helped me a lot. They all pretty much outline the same process, just with a different spin.

  182. Heffalump*

    I’d like to write about an experience I had years ago. I was admittedly young and naïve, and I made a mistake, but I don’t think I deserved the abuse I got for it. I see my situation as analogous to that of the interns who were fired for circulating a dress-code petition.

    I spent the first several years of my adult career as a typesetter for different shops. I left most of my jobs with positive feelings towards my supervisors. In some cases I would occasionally call up my past supervisors and chat for a few minutes. I always got a good reception, and no one ever said my calls were unwelcome. I concluded that calling past coworkers at their work was OK, within reason. I didn’t call up every past supervisor I’d ever had, but I did call some of them.

    At one point I got a typesetting job at a local university. I was hired by “Vaughn,” the shop foreman. I worked swing shift, so the beginning of my shift overlapped with the end of Vaughn’s. I reported to “Lisa,” and “Rachel” was one of my peers. I got along with everyone and was told that my work was excellent, but after a few months I was laid off because of budget cuts. I had had a good rapport with Rachel because we shared dark senses of humor.

    Every 6 to 8 weeks I would call and touch base with Lisa—not inordinately often in my view. I called a total of 5 times. On two of the first four calls, Lisa picked up. On the other two, Rachel picked up, I asked her to put Lisa on, and she did. At no time did either of them breathe a word to the effect that my calls were unwelcome. On the fourth call, I told Lisa that I was having an article published in a local publication. She said, “I’m proud of you, and send me a copy of the article.”

    I called 6 or 8 weeks later. Rachel picked up and said, “You’ve got your damn nerve to call. Lisa doesn’t want to talk to you. What don’t you go take a flying leap,” and hung up. No one had ever hung up on me in my life.

    Based on Rachel’s first and third statements, I would have just said, “Well, I’m not calling there again.” The problem was the second statement, “Lisa doesn’t want to talk to you.” I wouldn’t have believed this in any case, but based on Lisa’s “I’m proud of you,” I really didn’t believe it. I really thought Rachel had gone off the deep end. If Rachel had said politely, “Lisa doesn’t know how to tell you this, but it would be better if you didn’t call,” I would have believed her. If Lisa had picked up and said, “I don’t want to talk to you,” that would have been from the horse’s mouth, and I would have believed her.

    Another very big factor here: Lisa was the shift supervisor. I had assumed that if she didn’t mind my calling, then certainly no one else would. If I had called for Rachel and Lisa had said, “Rachel doesn’t want to talk to you,” that would have been an entirely different ball game. I would have thought that Rachel really didn’t want to talk to me and had asked Lisa to deal with it in her capacity as shift supervisor. Rachel didn’t really have the standing to tell me to stop calling, but it would have been OK if she’d done it in a civil, decent manner.

    The university was walking distance from my place, so I went over. I consciously said, “I’ll believe that Lisa doesn’t want to talk to me when I hear it from Lisa.”

    I got to the type shop, and as luck would have it, I crossed Rachel’s path, not Lisa’s. Rachel exploded and screamed, “Will you get the hell out of here? Your calls are harassing us!” Then she began to shriek, “Get out!” over and over. When Rachel used the word “us,” she obviously meant to include herself. If she had said this over the phone and not claimed to speak for Lisa, I would have resented the nastiness, but I would have believed her. I had thought I was being friendly and keeping in touch, and I don’t think a few-minute call to one member of the workgroup every several weeks constitutes “harassment.” Of course I totally get where Rachel was coming from at that moment. But the long and the short of it was that she had reamed me out and then gone into a rage because I didn’t turn the other cheek and slink away. She wanted to commit verbal hit-and-run. The last person to talk to me this way was my mother when I was in middle school.

    I called Vaughn next day, and he was very decent about it. He said, “Aren’t personal calls against the rules?” My response was as follows:

    “Not everything that’s against the rules is a major crime. Even if my calls were against the rules, Lisa and Rachel didn’t seem to mind, until Rachel did. I defy you to find anyone who’s never broken a rule in his life. If you want to have this ultra-strict policy on personal calls, so be it, but I’ve never seen anything like it.”

    I said that Lisa could have just asked me to stop calling, and Vaughn said, “Lisa doesn’t like to hurt people’s feelings, and she doesn’t always say what she means.”

    I said, “I’m sure Lisa meant well, but I’m not a mind reader.” Vaughn said there had been a round of layoffs after mine, and people were edgy. I got his point, but again, I’m not a mind reader.

    To make sure we were on the same page, I said, “So it’s no personal calls whatever?” and Vaughn confirmed this. I said, “I apologize if I inconvenienced anyone.” I was willing to say this to Vaughn. I would have said it to Rachel when there was a cold day in hell.

    I ran this past a friend who worked on a daily newspaper out of state, and she said, “For Pete’s sake! Personal calls are against the rules at my job, and people make and take them all the time.”

    A few other observations:

    If Rachel felt so strongly about my calls, why had she put Lisa on even once, let alone twice, previously?

    My ex-coworkers would have had the right to be angry if I had called up and abused them, called twice a week for weeks on end, or kept calling after I was asked not to. But I did none of those things.

    Rachel would probably say, “Everyone knows that you don’t call people at their work.” Well, I’m not everyone, my DNA and life experience were different from Rachel’s, and I didn’t get the memo.

    As I said, I made a mistake, but it was just that—an honest mistake. I think “inexcusable” is too mild a word for Rachel’s behavior.

    1. Ron McDon*

      All I can think is that something happened between the time your article was published and the time you rang afterwards.

      The article couldn’t have upset them in some way?

      From what Vaughn said it sounds like Lisa really didn’t want to speak to you, but lacked the courage to say so to you directly, which is hurtful.

      FWIW, I would disagree that phoning every 6-8 weeks is not excessive. That seems a lot.

      It’s upsetting when you feel you’re on good terms with someone and something like this happens.

    2. An Anon*

      I think this is the reality of the idea that nearly all work “friendships” are transitory and many are just fake. Once you leave they have nothing to talk to you about. Unfortunately, they probably expected you to realize that once you left and never call them. Even if someone says “lets stay in touch” it’s most likely bullshit.

    4. WellRed*

      Whatever else happened, Rachel was over the top ridiculous in her behavior. I agree though that you were calling way too often, especially after such a short stint there

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Rachel was a ridiculous and crazy bitch.
      Lisa was being chicken shit for not speaking up if she didn’t want you to call anymore.

      Could they have been jealous about your article?

      At least Vaughn showed some empathy and common sense.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        I thought it might have something to do with the article too. Former typesetter here–I kept trying to break into editorial where I worked and never made it, so I moved on to another company as a writer/editor. Or maybe something else happened at that workplace that had something to do with it. (“My pal Fergus’s job is hanging by a thread and management doesn’t like him, and here’s Sansa the ex-employee staying on our radar, what if they ditch Fergus and hire Sansa back?”)

        In any case, there can be good reasons to keep in touch with former coworkers and network from time to time, but unless you’re also friends out of the office, you were calling quite a lot.

      2. fall is here*

        I think it’s more like they were wary of a coworker who was let go and then persistently trying to contact them and not picking up on social cues to leave them alone. OP pushed way over normal boundaries here and it’s not okay. I would be seriously creeped out by the behavior they described.

        It sounds like OP doesn’t pick up on social cues. I’m betting that there were a lot of signs before the coworkers got fed up pointing to the fact that they thought OP was out of line. The fact that Lisa didn’t want to pick up two of the times is evidence enough. Vaughn was clearly trying to calm OP down so there was no retaliation. I mean, someone who goes to their former workplace to confront someone after being told no contact over the phone? That’s concerning behavior. I’d act like a crazy and ridiculous bitch to someone who came at me like that too.

        OP comes off really defensive, especially since this happened years ago. Her behavior is inexcusable, not her coworkers.

        1. valentine*

          I mean, someone who goes to their former workplace to confront someone after being told no contact over the phone?
          This is the bottom line. Rachel felt like she couldn’t directly tell you to stop calling, until she did, and you showing up was an exponential escalation. I didn’t know until the end that the calls were post-job. I thought you were calling Lisa with updates on your work because you were in a different building. If they never called you and you didn’t have personal contact for them, I imagine they felt hunted. You are rules-lawyering. People can set boundaries they don’t spell out for you and they don’t have to follow your rules. I find that people who say, “I wish they had just spoken to me” don’t respond well when someone does.

          (Have you posted before about this job or are more typesetters here than I could’ve guessed?)

          1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

            Hello valentine,

            Rachel felt like she couldn’t directly tell you to stop calling, until she did, and you showing up was an exponential escalation.

            Absolutely right. The last thing I would do would be to personally confront someone who had just yelled at me, told me to stop calling and hung up on me.

            Heffalump is darned lucky his/her confrontation didn’t end up with a bad reference, fisticuffs, police involvement, etc.

            People can set boundaries they don’t spell out for you…

            Correct. Thing is, people also need to understand that not everyone gets subtle hints. At that point, generally it’s only fair to spell it out civilly and clearly. Blowing up because someone didn’t catch what you thought were sufficient clues is generally unfair and even imprudent — some people react violently to that sort of thing.

            Unless there are other details Heffalump didn’t mention*, I don’t think there were any definite hints Lisa didn’t want to talk with Heffalump. She did pick up the first two times Heffalump called, and the other two times she came to the phone when asked…when she could instead have just had Rachel tell Heffalump that Lisa was busy.

            [*] Perhaps s/he didn’t notice them — which I suspect is more likely than average in this case. Or perhaps s/he just “conveniently” forgot them, or even purposely left them out to look better here.

            …and they don’t have to follow your rules.

            Quite right.

            I find that people who say, “I wish they had just spoken to me” don’t respond well when someone does.

            That may be true for many people. I know I’m not quite as good at mind-reading as many people, but once someone spells it out for me I get it.

            In any case, at that point you may have little to lose by spelling it out, because the alternative is a problem that festers or even escalates.

            To slightly paraphrase personal security expert Gavin de Becker’s suggestion, Lisa might say to Heffalump something like: “No matter what you may have assumed, and no matter why you might have assumed it, I don’t feel able to continue these conversations and that’s not going to change. Please direct your attention elsewhere, because that’s what I intend to do. I wish you well.”

    6. The Other Dawn*

      You’re getting way too wrapped up in this. Sure, they didn’t handle it well, but you were calling much too often for reasons I don’t know and you don’t mention. (What was the purpose of calling every six to eight weeks? I’m confused. Just because you were on good terms with a former coworker doesn’t mean it’s a reason to keep calling them at the old workplace, unless it was somehow industry- or work-related (?).) Just let it go and don’t do something like this again.

    7. fall is here*

      Yeah, you’re definitely the wrong party in this. I think it goes beyond a mistake and does seem like you were harassing them. The fact that you’re still hung up on this says a lot and I wonder if you know you were in the wrong.

      1. Peasblossom*

        I have to agree. I also think the above commenters dismissing Rachel (as a crazy bitch?? whoah) are missing the really concerning signs in the post. Heffalump, I’d do some serious interrogating of why this issue has bothered you so strongly. And I’d reiterate that–even if kindly meant–the phone call practice you describe is very much unusual, potentially concerning (it seems like your past coworkers read it that way).

    8. sequined histories*

      Honestly, what sticks out to me is your decision to physically go to the workplace after Rachel told you off on the phone. That sort of persistence in the face of unambiguous rejection is unusual and actually frightening to people. At that point you’re beyond a little bit out of sync and into “no means no” territory. I assume you’re a person of goodwill who doesn’t want to scare people. Nobody enjoys being rejected, but being able to hear and graciously accept rejection is a super important social and emotional skill, and that’s emotional labor you have to learn to do. You were (and still are) putting the burden on former coworkers to explicitly communicate something that is usually conveyed tacitly, and that’s why they got so upset.

    9. Middle School Teacher*

      Sorry OP but you remind me of the writer from a few years ago who was upset her coworker didn’t say goodbye, so opened her paystub, got her address, and went to her house. I’d probably yell at you to leave me alone, too :(

    10. AX*

      I want to draw attention to one particular passage: “The long and the short of it was that she had reamed me out and then gone into a rage because I didn’t turn the other cheek and slink away. She wanted to commit verbal hit-and-run. The last person to talk to me this way was my mother when I was in middle school.”

      You didn’t go to the shop that day because you wanted Lisa to tell you in person that she didn’t want to be your friend. I mean, that’s a horrible position to put someone in anyway, but it’s not why you were there. You went to confront Rachel because you felt humiliated after talking to her on the phone, and you still feel humiliated, and you’re trying to build a case for why Rachel and Lisa — who you maybe had a crush on — had no reason to reject you. It’s not mysterious that she felt threatened by you showing up at her workplace right after she hung up the phone with you — you did it to intimidate her. It was a really bad thing to do.

      It sounds like Rachel was super rude about rejecting you, and that’s painful, and it sucks. I’m also sympathetic to feeling humiliated and rejected because my life is a parade of embarrassing incidents and crushing on people who aren’t into me. But don’t make this your origin story. Don’t spend your life obsessing about how much you hate a woman who was rude to you on the phone.

      Also, maybe get some therapy about your mom. That’s not a diss. A lot of us need therapy about our moms.

    11. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      Hello Heffalump,

      The feeling I get, especially from the first two paragraphs, is that these things happened many years ago if not last century, possibly even pre-Internet, when not only was the phone the main way to reach people but also “landline” was a redundancy. The great thing about email is you’re not demanding immediate attention, and the other person can just ignore your notes until you get the message. (Or can just write back “I’m sorry, I’ve just got a lot on my plate and don’t have time to converse. Good luck with your career!”)

      So moving forward, if you want to catch up with someone at a former workplace, email is best. Try once or twice and if you don’t get a substantive response (“Hi, thanks for reaching out and I wish you well” is not a substantive response), let it go.

      By the way, if you really want to dig up the past, you might want to ask yourself if — in Lisa’s, Rachel’s or anyone else’s perception — you were involved in any problems. Layoffs because your employer went belly-up, closed a division or lost a contract you were working on are one thing. (And even then, unless the employer itself closed down or the only location within commuting distance was shut down, why didn’t they find a new spot for you?)

      Also, layoffs conducted under strict seniority rules are understandable. You were there just a few months. Last hired, first fired.

      “Layoffs” due to budget cuts, when the layoffs aren’t conducted under strict seniority rules, are a horse of a different color. If the university or the type shop “had to” lose, say, 5% or 10% of its workforce…I assure you they didn’t pick names out of a hat. Management decided — possibly with your Lisa’s? concurrence — that you, Heffalump, had to go. They just didn’t want to humiliate you (and jeopardize your unemployment benefits) by firing you “for cause”.

      Bottom line: You may not have broken any (or any major) rules, and your work product may have been acceptable, but maybe due to personality conflicts or other perceptions some people didn’t want you around.

      So if something like this happens again (a layoff due to budget cuts, where who went was a matter of management’s choice), not to mention an actual firing, figure it’s more likely than average that folks there just want you to go away. (Not to mention what An Anon said below.)

      In any case, I wish you the best of luck dealing with this. You might even want to take AX’s advice about therapy.

  183. Hiding My ID*

    I was out of the office today and my boss called me to tell me one of our team was no longer with us (no details of circumstances). There’s been such turnover since I joined that team a few years ago. This latest just gets to me. The departed one and I were on friendly terms but weren’t especial friends. I just dread the extra work that everyone will have to do to cover (again), the time and effort to find someone new (again) and getting them onboard, up and running (again) and worrying if they’ll turn out OK or if they’ll be a jerk who was making nice during the interviews. I’ve been job-hunting a bit myself because my job hit a dead end, but I wasn’t pushing it. Now I’d almost work at Starbucks than stay at this place. (No bad reflection on Starbucks; it’s just that that job calls for every skill I’m not good at, like meeting the public. I’m a back-office type.)

    I am just so depressed out this.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It sounds like your work may have underlying issues if the turnover is high. Really, it’s probably out of your hands to fix it. You can accept it will be that way, or move on yourself.

      I’ve been in the workforce a long time and I can say that life is too short to stay in a job that makes you miserable. (Granted a job is WORK and of course we’d all probably rather be doing something else, but your job ought to be at least tolerable—we spend an awful lot of our lives at it.) It’s also true that a formerly enjoyable can change to an intolerable job in a heartbeat.

  184. Chilly Saturday*

    Any suggestions for how to do emotional intelligence training well?

    We recently had a train-the-trainer type session for all managers, which we now will take back to our teams. It was a four-hour session that we need to repackage into an hour. While we do have training guides, I’d really like to tie this into recent situations.

    The “recent situation” is that a long-timer quit without notice, because she couldn’t accept the change in leadership (me). She was very well-known throughout the company as being a pot-stirrer, very emotional, often had outbursts, could be vindictive about things, gossipy, that sort of thing. She survived because of being very close with the previous manager.

    So, I want to tie the training into this, but not make it all about this person. Mainly because I don’t want to beat a dead horse–it’s done and I want us all to move past this. In addition, I want to head off any potential issues in the future. I’m pushing for the company to provide to all employees the self-evaluation material managers received, but that might not happen, so I’ll have to make do with what I have right now. How do I make a big impact in such a short amount of time, especially when this is such an important topic in general?

    1. CM*

      Emotional intelligence is super important. I wouldn’t make the training about a conflict between you and a former employee — especially if the message of that is, “The former employee had low EQ and you guys need to make sure you don’t act like her.” If the message is more like, “If I had had the EQ skills I have now, then I would have handled that situation more sensitively” then that’s different, but that’s not the impression I get from what you’ve described.

      I think the main thing to ask yourself is what change you’re hoping to see once people learn about emotional intelligence, and gear the training toward that. What are the potential issues you’re hoping to avoid in the future and how will having better EQ help you avoid them?

      I kind of get a vibe like you’re hoping they’ll all do a self analysis and learn that they need to stop being monsters which… would not be an unusual approach for someone to take to EQ training, but is maybe not the most emotionally intelligent one. I think it would be more helpful to share how the training has affected your own behaviour and your own approach to relationships in the office, and then maybe outline a vision for what you would like to see, like, “I think it would be amazing if we could apply this to our conflicts with the other teams,” or whatever.

      1. Chilly Saturday*

        Thank you! No, they’re definitely not monsters–they’re generally good, hard-working people. But I can see at least a couple of them kind of veering in the direction of cliquishness towards someone we hired on recently now that the former employee is no longer there.

        The change I’m looking for would be that our department is no longer known as the center of drama. The former employee leaving has gone a long way to restore peace within the department–no one needs to walk on eggshells anymore or try to work around her, which is what was happening. Things get done and it’s pretty much smooth sailing.

    2. Morning Reader*

      Perhaps I am being a negative Nelly but I doubt any “training” consolidated from 4 hours to one on such a topic will do anything at all, no matter how well presented. Train the trainer approach works for hard skills, e.g. using new software. No one is going to learn anything useful much less apply it in the way you want with a one hour meeting with their manager. Sounds to me like a non solution to a non problem since the difficult person has left. Unless I am misunderstanding the topic? “Emotional intelligence” is something adults already have to some degree and unless you are raising your employees up from childhood, I doubt there is much an employer can do to increase it in any one individual. Is this some wacky new employer trend like the whole “personalities” thing?

  185. An Anon*

    I’m debating how aggressively I want to search for a new job while at my current one… I would like to find a new job but the current one isn’t actually bad, just not really a good fit considering some specific issues. Also it’s boring and probably doesn’t need to be a full time job but I need a full time job for obvious reasons so I’m trying not to make waves.

    So for now I’ve just been taking a look at the job boards and seeing what’s out there that might be interesting. The other issue is that I’d rather not be in the same field – at least not the same way. But I’m not exactly sure what jobs I’d qualify for because I’m 10 years into working in one type of role…. and I’m good at it even if it’s boring. I’m not sure what other types of jobs I’d be good at.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      In a way this is the best situation to be in. You can take your time, do your research on what’s needed for the role you do want, or even learn some new skills before you jump. This is what I call strategic job jumping.
      I think you DO have to become proactive. Don’t just sit in this job waiting around. So, make a timeline of how long you’re willing to stay: 6 months, a year? Remember, it can take up to six months to find another good job, so prepare before you’re ready to go.

    2. A Reader*

      Maybe make a list of skills that you’ve acquired in your job, including certifications and soft skills. If you have attention to detail in your role, that’s a skill that can carry over to just about any industry. That kind of thing.

      I would also say to just apply to jobs that interest you, and mention that you want to start a career in a new industry in your cover letter. Explain that while you have 10 years’ experience in X industry, you want to get into Y industry because of reasons A, B and C. I work in an industry that not too many study to be part of it – it’s more of an industry that you sort of find your way into it. So I work with people who have all kinds of interesting backgrounds, and there’s never a certain type of person who works in this industry.

  186. Stef*

    Thanks everyone for you replies above. I’m the one who asked if you need to know someone in order to get a job. I try to sell myself as best as I can in interviews and ask plenty of questions. I have no problem getting interviews. I don’t know if I’m doing anything wrong in the interviews or I
    Yes, all those rejections are true and what came up in the e-mail. The hotel front desk position rejection stated I got rejected because I have no hotel front desk experience and the credit card transaction (according to the interviewer was a difficult cumbersome transaction that was manual or something along those lines). Here are the job requirements:
    •Fluency in English (written and verbal) is required. I have this.
    •Must have High school diploma or equivalent. I have this.
    •A minimum of one years’ experience in a customer/guest service and/or public contact related job. I have 4 years.
    •Must be computer literate, ideally with a knowledge of Microsoft Word. I have 10 years.
    •Excellent interpersonal skills and the ability to work well with co-workers and the public. I have 4 years.
    •Possess a courteous, friendly and professional manner. Yes.
    •Ability to solve practical problems and deal with a variety of situations. Yes.
    •Ability to effectively deal with internal and external customers, some of whom will require high levels of patience, tact, and diplomacy to defuse anger. I’ve done all of this.
    •Ability to work well under pressure and handle multiple tasks at once. I’ve done this too.

    To answer everyone’s questions regarding the phone sales position, I don’t have a smartphone because I can’t afford one when I only make $100 a week (I have no friends to call). Also, my parents hate cell phones and how much they cost. They prefer a landline, but if I was accepted into that company, I would buy a smartphone. However, at my previous job I did use an iPad register with KWI software for 4 years. Both my managers (ones from previous and ones from current) both said I pick up the register and other areas fairly quickly within two days, so if I bought a smartphone, I would be able to pick it up in less than a week (even my mom says I pick up things quicker than she does). Plus, I’m overly critical of myself and aim to be perfect and on top of everything all the time, and I take job responsibilities seriously.

    I aced the phone interview for the teller position at the bank, and when I went to the interview, I asked the question what kind of skills or qualifications would make me a better fit for the teller role. The assistant manager asked me how much money my previous job kept in their drawer. I replied $500. She said to me they keep $10,000 in their drawer and handling that kind of money is very important (but you’re a bank. You’re going to keep that kind of money in your drawer). Here are the requirements:
    Qualifications
    • High school diploma or GED. I have this.
    • 1 year related experience preferred. I have 4 years.
    • Superior Customer service skills. I have this. Customers complemented me on my friendly, bubbly personalty.
    • General Math skills. I have this.
    • Detail orientated and able to function in a fast-paced and changing environment. I have this.
    • Excellent communication skills with ability to be concise, clear, and consistent. I have this.

    None of the qualifications listed here say you need $10,000 experience to work at a bank. Yes, it’s a lot of money, but the recruiter said mistakes often happen when you get comfortable, not when you’re new. The recruiter said it’s not necessary to have banking experience, but the assistant manager said something else to what the recruiter said and the qualifications. The head teller, who I also interviewed with, came from a retail background too. I don’t think one would have $10,000 experience unless 1. they’ve worked in a bank and 2. perhaps worked at a flagship store in the city (which I’m not travelling to the city for a job. I live in a small town of 30,000 people).

    I plan to volunteer at the hospital, and I have an appointment next Wednesday, so I hope that will help me land a clerical job there. My dad’s family only helps people who they want to help. My aunt helped out a woman who was a cashier at a grocery store, and she had no prior clerical experience, but she was part of the FD (my aunt’s husband is a firefighter). That woman married out of high school and became a stay-at-home mom. I have more computer and typing skills than her.

    I would be interested in temping, but it’s far away from my hometown. My mom prefers I stay close to home because she had to travel for a job and says insurance, car, gas, milage, ect . . . isn’t worth it unless you’re getting paid good money. My mom says it’s not worth travelling round trip 40 miles for a job that’s paying you $14 an hour.

    I would like to land a full time job quickly because I really want to start at blog that will focus on reviewing handbags (I worked at a mid-range handbag company for 4 years) and books. Also, I will be talking about the current fashion trends and styling outfits (from new styles to years’ old clothes). Also, I plan to start taking some accounting courses at a local community college when I land a job (I’ll have money to pay for the courses).

    1. EventPlannerGal*

      It’s very likely that you’re missing out on these jobs not because you don’t have the right experience, but because other candidates just have more experience than you do. Even if the job ad says they want 1-2 years experience and you have 4, there might be another applicant with 5 or 10. You can’t do anything about that, unfortunately, and it happens to a lot of people at every point in their careers. All you can do is try to focus on presenting the experience that you do have as well as possible, and try not to let it get you down.

      (Also, regarding the hotel job: I know that you say you have experience handling difficult customers, but hotel guest problems are often a whole different type of crazy than you get even in retail so they may prefer someone coming from a hotel/hospitality environment. Again, not your fault!)

      1. Stef*

        Thanks for replying. I have 4 years of crazy retail stories from an Ebay buyer, to a man who threw this credit card at me, to a woman who said to her mom that she puts her prostitute money in her breasts, to people asking for three free gift with purchase because they spent over $450 (coupon was a free gift over $150), customers over the phone asking you for one hour straight whether or not they’ll like the bag or not, to more. I could go on and on. *All of this is condensed and doesn’t contain all information about what happened in these situations. It may not sound crazy based on how little I’m telling you, but my stories are crazy.
        Obviously, working in a hotel would be different with different customers with different problems. That particular hotel is in a tourist area, so peak season is late spring to Labor Day. Although the position is year round, the only cars in the parking lot were the managers and cleaning staff. The entire hotel was empty. My mom advised me that particular hotel is a dead-end job, but I told her they may take me (which they didn’t).
        My mom used to work out in that particular town in a hospital and told me there’s zero industry out there.

  187. Thankful for AAM*

    Super late to the thread but has anyone seen this article/work advice column and what do you think?
    Link in the comments.
    It breaks all job problems down to 4 things:
    My boss annoys me.

    My co-workers (usually millennials) annoy me.

    I am dissatisfied with the type of work I do and/or don’t know what to do next.

    I don’t actually have serious work problems but am anxious about that.

  188. Frederick (but I go by Ricky)*

    I’m a teacher looking to change schools closer to where I live. I teach Latin in an area that takes pride in its Latin progrms, so although it’s niche, it’s got a presence
    However, the school that appeals to me the most has a health science bent and has limited language options and no Latin program. I’m wondering what the best way to “cold call” a school about starting a program would be, making it clear I am serious about working there, but not making it sound like I’m trying to meddle or give them a hard sell.

  189. A Reader*

    This is late, but I thought I’d give it a try:

    A few months ago, an internal recruiter for a certain company reached out to me via LinkedIn and asked if I was interested in applying to a certain position within her company. I was not thinking about moving on to a new position at that time, so I thanked her for reaching out and told her I’d keep the company in mind for future opportunities. She thanked me and told me to reach out if anything changes.

    Well, things are changing, and I’ve noticed this company has a few open positions that match my skills. Do I reach out to the internal recruiter after I’ve applied and let her know I sent in my application? Or do I just keep my fingers crossed that she’ll somehow remember me (or has flagged me in the system)? Thank you!

    2. WalkedInMyShoes*

      I would recommend responding to the recruiters original LinkedIn message and let the person know which role you are interested. This should streamline the interview process for you and the company.

      1. A Reader*

        Thank you both so much! I had a feeling the ball would be in my court, so to speak, as she initiated contact. It’s so tricky, though, because I don’t want to come across as presumptuous. I’ll fill out an application, then reach out to her. I’m glad I thought to ask if we could connect via LinkedIn when we first spoke a few months ago!

  190. Stef*

    Hi, I’m back again. I’m the same person who asked about if you need to know someone to land a job. Some people commentated about my ability to deal with rejection or I lost out to someone better than me. How do you know whether or not you’re the one with the problem in the interview? How do you know if you’re bad at interviews? I always arrive early, come into the interview early (5 minutes), dress professionally (business suit and hair nice and neat), greet the interviewer, shake hands, smile, and sell my skills for the job. I tell them I’m great at problem solving, I learn quickly, my managers never have any problems with me (nor do I give them any problems), I take business relationships seriously, I follow all rules and regulations, and I’m disciplined. How do you know whether you’re charming or not? I’m beginning to think I’m the problem.

    Writing novels is one of my hobbies, and I aim to become published one day, so I’m aware of rejection and criticism (my query letters had tons of red marks on them).

    1. A Reader*

      Do you have a family member or friend whose judgment you trust? If so, I’d do a mock interview with them. Have them ask you questions like “What’s your biggest weakness?” and so on, and ask for feedback. Do you start playing with your hair when you speak, do you use “um” a lot? They can let you know if you’re doing that.

      And sometimes, you can do absolutely everything by the book, but another candidate could have edged you out because they have one skill that you don’t have, or they had something on their resume that’s super impressive, or they just instantly clicked with the interviewer. So getting a rejection doesn’t always mean the interviewer disliked you or thought you couldn’t do the job – it’s just that they chose someone who had that one thing that you didn’t.

      1. Stef*

        No, I don’t play with my hair or say “um” a lot. I did a mock interview with my mom (I don’t have any friends or siblings. I’m an only child), and all she said was I say very a lot (which I don’t say anymore) and I come across charming (which is exactly what I want to come across).
        I want to come across as professional, serious, and charming. When I arrange an interview through e-mail with either the recruiter or interviewer, I see an e-mail exchange as a business transaction and make sure it’s professional. I go over my spelling and grammar and make sure my sentences are clear, concise, and readable. I put in dates and times I’m available and not available for phone or in person interviews.
        Thank you for replying.

        1. LilySparrow*

          With the several years of work history you mention, I’m assuming you’re an adult. While it’s common for folks to live with their parents in adulthood, it’s rather unusual to have no friends you could talk to about something as ordinary as a job hunt.

          I think if you can make time to cultivate a wider social circle, you’ll see a lot of benefit – and one of the places that will show up is in job referrals / networking, and navigating situations like job interviews with more confidence and grace.

          I was very close with my mom, and she was a wonderful lady, but she was not at all capable of giving me realistic feedback on how I presented professionally. I think moms in general are never going to be objective about their kids!

          Best of luck, I hope something turns up for you soon.

    2. CM*

      I’ve gone on a lot of job interviews for jobs I didn’t get (as well as some I did, thank god), and at this point I can pick up a vibe in the room that tells me whether it’s going well or not, but the thing I’ve tried to accept is that it might not be possible to know WHY there’s a bad vibe when there is. It’s frustrating and it sucks.

      If you’re worried that you’re doing something that’s leading to rejection, the best thing to do is try to get feedback about it — either from a friend, or from the people you interviewed with, or from a job coach you’ve hired. You don’t have to accept that feedback as being absolutely true, but it can be helpful to get a sense for how other people see things, especially if you can ask several people.

      I also get a sense from your question that maybe you’re building a case for why you deserve to have a job, and you’re getting annoyed that you’ve been denied one when, as far as you can tell, you’ve done everything you’re supposed to do. That’s a normal way to feel. Our economy is structured so that people need jobs to live, but we’re all treated as if it’s optional and voluntary and as though no one has a responsibility to provide us with the jobs we need to live, after deciding that’s the only way we get to survive. People who have trouble finding employment are essentially told that that’s because they don’t deserve to live, and it’s really messed up. I feel for you, and I think we need a universal basic income for exactly these reasons.

    3. Lady Heather*

      What I’ve learned from AAM is that you shouldn’t tell them you learn quickly (or anything else) – you should ‘show’ them through offering examples.

      1. Stef*

        Thanks for your replies. I know I shouldn’t go to my mom for critique (I don’t even give my manuscript to my mom for her to critique. However, my mom is very nitpicky), but I’m in my mid-twenties and most people my age just go out and get drunk. I don’t drink because I had a family member who was an alcoholic, and I don’t want to become one, and I don’t believe co-workers can be best friends. However, I could ask my managers at my current store to interview me and tell me what I can improve on. Holiday season is upon us, so it has been very busy in the store with customers, unpacking shipment, and setting up displays, so I have to choose which time would be appropriate to conduct a “mock” interview.
        My other retail store, a handbag company, closed its doors back in mid-June because the new rent was too much money for them to pay. I’m applying to any entry-level positions in a wide-range span from teller to full time key holder to receptionist. My benefits expire in December, so I want to grab something, anything just to have benefits. However, that doesn’t mean I would complete these jobs halfway. I put my “all” into anything, and I would never apply for jobs that I wouldn’t be able to put my all into it.
        My real goal is to transition into clerical, but I would take anything just to have benefits and then focus on transitioning to clerical. I have an appointment with my local hospital to volunteer there, and I’ll be able to connect with people there and maybe I can use them as a reference to gain a clerical position in the hospital.
        Also, some time this week, I’ll be travelling to a temp agency and see if they can put me in for clerical in my hometown or one town over.
        Will temp agencies mind if you don’t have clerical experience, or will they prefer to hire someone with more experience?

        1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

          I’m in my mid-twenties and most people my age just go out and get drunk.

          Mmmm…speaking as a long-time teetotaller myself, I can assure that most people — yes, including young people — do many things besides going out and getting drunk. In fact, many people (including young folks, especially after leaving college) don’t get drunk that often.

          I get the impression you approach life with a rather narrow and stereotyped perspective. In fact, people might get the impression you think you’re better than they are. That can be both a result and a cause of your having no friends. I went that route many years ago.

          That said, you’re quite right about co-workers not necessarily being best friends. It can happen, but generally it doesn’t.

          You can — and likely should — socialize a bit more (starting on social media if that helps you ease into it). You don’t need to make lifelong, heart-to-heart friends, but you should at least have some acquaintances who can teach you some things…things that aren’t covered in textbooks, like how to get along with people different from you.

          Last but not least, I get the impression you believe decisions can or should be made wholly objectively…that as long as you meet the qualifications, you should get the jobs. For better or worse, life doesn’t work like that…among other things, many people meet the qualifications, and the question is who they feel best fits in. We all need to appeal to people’s emotions (especially their subjective concerns about how reliable, hardworking, agreeable, etc., we are) at least as much as to the rules.

          Good luck Stef — and my best wishes to your family member!

          1. Stef*

            Thanks for your reply. I would like to have friends (my family just has horrible past friendships where we had to always go over to our friends, but they would never come to us) and I don’t think I’m better than people. I’m sorry if I came across that way to you or anyone else here. I’m just frustrated with my job search and other personal matters that are happening in my life (too personal and off topic here). All I want to be is happy, especially with the holidays and my birthday coming up. I want to land a full time job, still look for a full time job, have benefits, save money, have income to pay for my blog’s hosting website, buy a smartphone so I can be on Instagram for my blog, and buy a gym membership so I can work out during the winter. I want to problem solve my problem, find the solution, fix it, and maybe I’ll get an offer. I’m sorry if I come across as impatient. I can’t sit and wait for things to happen. I have to make things happen.

            Because I’m interested in transferring from retail to clerical, I’m hung up on the qualifications, and I know someone above me stated that I’m competing against other people who are more qualified than me and I don’t have office experience. I absolutely understand that 100%. If I was a hiring manager looking for a clerical worker, I would look at people with clerical experience. If I had known how difficult it would have been for me to switch careers, I would’ve applied at office jobs back when I was 15/16 (I’m not sure if all offices take high school-aged people so don’t quote me on that one) and perhaps I would be an office manager now. I would’ve saved myself all this stress.

            I revised my resume and gave examples that say I’m a quick learner, can multi-task, and I’m detailed without saying it. I’m glad I write novels because I understand the “show, don’t tell” rule. Obviously, when one writes a resume the “show, don’t tell” rule is very different from writing a novel, but the concept is still the same.

  191. Anonymous Poster*

    I have to speak a foreign language everyday at work. Where I live, that language isn’t super common. My work provides me training in it via a remote teacher, but I can’t be immersed in it. My wife and I are also expecting our first child soon, so I’ll have to stop the training in December. My question is, hope can I continue to learn and improve a hard language in this situation?

    Thanks for the tips!

    1. Princesa Zelda*

      Depending on the language, you may be able to find free online classes. Spanish will be easier to find than, like, Nahuatl, but even with relatively obscure languages there’s almost certainly something on YouTube in that language, whether actual lessons, dubbed movies, or music with captions. Duolingo is great for vocabulary practice, and a lot of libraries have language-learning resources available at no additional charge, so check out your local library as well.

    2. googs*

      Consume media in that language – books and TV/films – and look for online sources for more grammar/vocabulary work. If you work well out of books, I am sure there are workbooks (quality will vary by language – lots of competition like Spanish will have lots of diff styles of workbooks vs something like Amharic, which will have a limited set of material avaliable). Are there any local tutors at all or even someone willing to be a conversation partner?

  192. WalkedInMyShoes*

    In early Septemeber, I had a great on-site interview with a great startup and really liked the hiring manager. I thought that I would get an offer right away, because my friend who referred me into the company mentioned that my name was brought up in a company conference where they were told I was going to be hired. Well, it’s been two months, and I am still waiting and interviewing.
    Then, last week the hiring manager called up and asked what numbers I would consider accepting an offer for the role. I responded that I had been waiting for two months to hear back. So, I continued to interview with other companies and have 2nd round of onsite interviews and have several other conversations scheduled. In my mind, I am not ready to say “Yes” and stop interviewing until there’s an offer. The hiring manager said to think about the numbers and I should touch base with him earlier this past week after my travels. I emailed and called the hiring manager on Monday and did not hear back until Friday, yesterday. Here’s the gist of the message: 1) apologized for not getting back to me 2) not trying to blow me off, because it’s been busy week 3) mentioned that it’s hard to get connected via email and phone – doesn’t check vm often enough 4) still getting “final approvals” for making a formal offer to me.
    What I learned from AMA, the interviews and how one is engaged during the process is a sure sign of how the company is and how you will be treated. Well, here’s what I need your point of view: 1) do you see red flags? or am I being too sensitive, because I need a job 2) should I send an email to the hiring manager with my idea of my compensation expectations? or just wait for the formal offer? Thanks!

    1. CM*

      I get why it’s frustrating to wait two months without hearing anything. It sounds like it takes kind of a long time to do things at this company (though, I’ve had hiring processes that went more than two months). If you were/are still interested in working there regardless, I think ideally you would have told them the compensation range you wanted in advance of getting a formal offer — that way, when they draw the offer up, you know the salary is going to be in the right place. This way, it’s more of a mystery.

      I don’t see it as being a red flag — in fact, if you like this place, I think this is a really good thing. It doesn’t mean you have to stop interviewing anywhere else or can’t accept a job somewhere else — it just means someone seems to want to hire you.

      I think that, if you want to, you could still send an email that mentions that salary range you’re looking for. The impression I’m getting is that that’s what they want, but since you’ve already refused a couple of times, it might help to frame it like, “I was hesitant to name an exact salary range without seeing the other details of the offer, but my ballpark is X, if that helps things along.”

      1. WalkedInMyShoes*

        Thanks for the advice! I will send the hiring manager an email on Monday, and will let everyone know how it goes.

    2. LilySparrow*

      Yes, they’ve asked you twice to basically name your price. If you want them to say a number first, say so. “Can you give me an idea of what you have budgeted for this position?”

      If you aren’t responding to direct questions, you can’t expect them to read your mind.

      Their process is kind of slow, but not uncommonly so, and the manager acknowledged and apologized for the delay.

      I think you are raising more red flags by deliberately stonewalling, than they are by being slow. They are not treating you badly. You are taking things personally that aren’t personal at all.

      1. WalkedInMyShoes*

        Thank you for the advice. I haven’t sent the hiring manager an email yet, but will add the question as well.

  193. Meg*

    How do I deal with being an ambivert and coworkers giving me a hard time for not being social enough?

    I am very shy, despite what my coworkers believe, and I do not like to talk to or involve myself with people unless I’m super good friends with them. I usually get anxious and think they hate me. I wasn’t even quite aware of my social anxiety until my boss pointed it out to me. She is pretty understanding about it and said she noticed that I have to take breaks from social situations. I realized how right she was and had never noticed it on my own!

    Anyway, I get a lot of shit, for lack of better words, because my coworkers think I need to be more social. This isn’t how they put it because they don’t believe me and laugh when I say I’m shy. Most of my “extrovertedness” really comes from the fact that I am bipolar 2 and tend to have a loud personality due to it. But I really prefer to be alone and not talk to people unless we’ve formed a bond. My coworkers complain about several things. Like, I don’t say hi to anyone first, and I don’t say good morning first or this or that. The thing is, I do make an effort, they just don’t realize because I guess that is on the normal level of socializing? I don’t know, but the amount of socialization I do at work is exhausting and I do not like to go further than I’m comfortable with.

    I’m not cold, I talk to people, I have conversations and make jokes. Why do I have to be pushed into more socialization than I am comfortable with? It actually kind of makes me feel very emotional to think about because it stresses me out. I want to talk to my boss about it since she gets it, but I don’t want to look unreasonable. I know there is a certain amount of social activity that is expected of anyone in any situation–but I don’t get people making me feel bad for not going above and beyond what I am comfortable with.

    Why is this such a big deal to some people??

    1. Meg*

      I’ll also note that I have a huge amount of negative self-talk going on in my head daily on a constant basis, which leads me not to talk to others because I feel like they all secretly hate me. Sad but true.

    2. CM*

      I don’t know why it’s a big deal, but I know that there’s sometimes a kind of bullying that masquerades as encouraging introverted people to be more outgoing (for the record, there’s nothing wrong with being introverted, or needing a break from socializing, or not feeling confident to make the first move in a social situation).

      Most of us want to be accepted as we are, and constantly pressuring someone to be different is a form of rejection. YMMV on whether it’s dumb to reject people for not saying “Hi” often enough, but, if you’re the person being pressured, sometimes it helps to point out that that’s what’s happening, and remove the facade that it’s actually something else. So, when you tell them you’re shy and they act like they don’t believe you, you could say, “I feel really rejected right now.” People who have friendly intentions will take that as a sign that they need to take the conversation more seriously — people who don’t have friendly intentions will just carry on, but then you’ll know what their intentions are.

      This all hinges on you being okay with the possibility that these assholes sincerely don’t like you, and I know that’s an easier thing to say than to feel. So, if you’d rather not know for sure, that’s okay, too. You could try to work on building your self-confidence first, so that their opinions matter less to you.

      Good luck.

      1. Meg*

        Thanks. I actually spoke to a friend about this and they pointed out one of the people complaining about this is not the nicest person in the world to begin with. It’s a little ironic now that I see it through that perspective that someone who is unfriendly to me and complains about others is telling me I’m unfriendly to others.

        While I agree that I need to build my self confidence, I think that it would probably be best just to ignore any sort of feedback from this person because it is not in good faith.

    3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      I work with a bunch of sales types who can, in my view, be just inconsiderate, boisterous motormouths when they socialize in the office (open plan, yech) that disrupts my very different kind of work. Sometimes I’ve been on the phone with clients and haven’t been able to hear what they or I am saying because it’s “party time” in the office. When I first came on board, my manager made it clear she didn’t want me spending time chitchatting; later, she criticized me for not being social enough.

      Now that CM pointed it out, I agree that it’s a kind of bullying and power play. It really seems to bug and disconcert people when someone is on the quiet side.

  194. glache*

    I’ve had interviews where they ask you at the beginning, rather than the end, if you have any questions. Should you ask your questions then, or ask to leave it to the end? Thanks.

    1. Meg*

      It doesn’t make sense to ask at the beginning unless you have any questions not covered in the pre-interview process. Otherwise, you ask at the end because that’s after they have interviewed and you would most likely need more info about the job and have the need to interview them.

    2. A Reader*

      If they ask you upfront at the beginning, then I’d ask a few general-type questions – what’s a typical day like in this role, how would you describe the company culture, etc. I would at least ask *something*, as I think it would look weird if you don’t have any questions at all.

    3. irene adler*

      This is actually good for you, the candidate.
      Ask what they are looking for in a candidate. Or ask them for the 5 key things that are most important to the job (not the same thing as listing the bullet points contained in the job description).

      Now, for all the questions they subsequently ask you, try to weave some of the info gleaned from their answering the questions above. It’s a nice way to frame your responses to match what they are looking for.

    4. LilySparrow*

      I use this as an opportunity to discuss the things I’ve gleaned in my research, and check my understanding or get clarification. It’s rare that a job description really conveys everything you need to know about the job. So it’s less fact based or yes/no questions and more “I noticed this, can you tell me more about that?”

      This is a very good way to start an interview, I think. It’s more conversational, and gives the interviewer insight into the way you think, far more than them interrogating you about your resume.

  195. Salary info*

    I am wondering if there is a resource out there that gives accurate salary information based on your geographical area and amount of experience. I work in the biotech industry and believe I am underpaid relative to my experience. I would like to collect some data to back this up and ask for a raise, but I don’t know how to find it. The main problem is that in biotech, there is no standardization of titles across companies. So when Glassdoor lists a salary estimate for a “Research Scientist I,” that could be someone fresh out of grad school or someone with a PhD, post-doc fellowship, and 10 years of work experience. It’s hard to know what’s comparable to my position. And most job listings I’ve found don’t list a salary range. I know this is pretty industry-specific, but are there any resources out there anyone could recommend?

    1. irene adler*

      It’s hard to find one definitive source for this information. Do your best to match the job descriptions with what your job tasks are. I know, not easy.

      Bureau of Labor Statistics (this will take some digging to find what you need)

      Salary.com (you’ll need to read the job title descriptions to match the job you are trying to find a salary for)

      Indeed.com (may not be the best source; but it’s better than nothing)

      ASQ.org- for some jobs in biotech (QA, QC, regulatory)

      You might try to find a professional organization that covers the aspect of the biotech industry you are working in (pharma, medical device, etc.). They should have annual salary reviews-including geographical locations. You’ll need to read the job descriptions to match the job you are trying to find the salary for. Maybe seek out a local chapter and ask if they can assist you?

      Biospace.com (Look up similar jobs -hope they have salary ranges listed)

      LinkedIn (some data here)

      If you are in San Diego, there is an organization called San Diego Employer’s Organization. They do a salary survey of the local businesses. This includes biotech. Then they publish the results. You either need to be a member to receive this publication, or you might be able to purchase this from them. Won’t be cheap though. If you know someone in an HR dept, they might be able to get this for you. Maybe there is an equivalent organization where you live?

      Long shot: find an independent recruiter. Not someone who is employed by a specific biotech company. These are people a biotech company will reach out to for finding a special skill set. They know the going rates for jobs in the area they specialize in.

      Contact a temp agency that specializes in biotech (Aerotek or Kelly Scientific, for example). Ask them if they can give you information. Just make sure you understand the info they give you: their rate they charge their clients vs. the actual dollar per hour amount the temp is paid. And, whether the job figures are for contract or direct hire positions.

      Seek out job seeker groups – like on Meetup.com. They may know about other resources or connect you with an independent recruiter that will know these figures.

    2. Gatomon*

      Assuming you’re US-based, then yes! My state publishes this info yearly for all occupation categories. Your state most likely does as well. If you can’t find anything on their website, it’s worth just calling an office to ask if/where it’s published. Ours is buried under something like “wage and occupation info” or “labor market statistics” because it also includes information on the expected growth for that position within the state.

      If you find it, you’ll need to know what job category you fit closest with – there’s a big A-Z list with descriptions in the Occupational Outlook Handbook (OOH) that the BLS publishes for the whole US. If you live in a larger state or big city, you might find the information you’re looking for in the OOH itself. I live in a small state so the OOH doesn’t have any relevant data for me because our wages are much lower, so I just go straight to my state resources.

  196. Paralegal Part Deux*

    Wish me luck. I’m applying for two jobs that one is definitely remote work in FL in real estate and the other has potential for remote work in Los Angeles for the right candidate. I never would have had the guts to apply for either of these jobs without the tips from this site.

  197. Amethyst*

    How do I list two jobs within the same company when I returned after a layoff? It was a reduction in force in November last year and I returned this past July. They are two different positions (A/R and currently a role similar to data entry + a few extra things). My A/R role was pretty extensive re: my duties. Data entry job isn’t. Should I list them as two separate entries on my resume or combine them with my current position above my last one?

    1. Close Bracket*

      Company Name
      Position 2 Start date – present
      [duties, accomplishments, …]

      Position 1 Start date – end date
      [duties, accomplishments, …]

  198. Donna*

    Looking for a little emergency help for a friend. They’re a lawyer in Canada, have run a private practice for several years, and are now looking for a public service job. I feel like a lot of cover letter advice here doesn’t account for the forced formality of certain fields. But they’ve also basically only gotten jobs through connections (law is very much a networking field) so they’re not really up to date on the latest fields. How should they look to structure their cover letter, and what sort of tone should they take?

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