open thread – November 15-16, 2019

by Alison Green on November 15, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Pants on Fire*

    Is lying bad?
    I have an employee whose performance has been unsatisfactory for a while (Jim). Poor time management, errors in tasks, forgetting to do tasks, not understanding processes he has done for eight years. A lot of this is something a manager can help with, but this employee has been here longer than me and should be a subject matter expert in his work. Therefore, he has pushed back on any suggestion, example or clearly communicated statement that what he is doing is not working and he isn’t doing as well as he should be. 
    Once we started going through the our company’s performance management process, I think the employee has really made good strides. Except, one area of his performance continues to suffer. This employee is not honest with me. He continues to give me half truths, omit critical information that would indicate he has made a mistake, say one thing and when pressed, say something different with no acknowledgement that he is contradicting himself. When I follow-up, he has no answer for the inconsistency. He’s told me things that our IT team has looked into and been unable to substantiate. Jim and I have worked together for a while and this has been a pattern for the whole time we have worked together. I used to believe there were simple mistakes but given the length of time, the frequency with which they happen and that they are pointed out to him, and his improvement in other areas, I see this as being purposefully untruthful. 
    The management above me is pleased that Jim seems to be turning it around. And he is, except he still frequently does not give me the whole story. I don’t want to work closely with someone I can’t trust to communicate the truth to me. I am sensing that management feels like because he has made strides in all other areas, this isn’t a big deal. Am I being unreasonable?
    TL;DR I have an employee on a PIP and he has greatly improved his work but he still frequently lies to me. Is is reasonable to want him gone because of that?

    1. Just Elle*

      To me lying is a deal breaker. It doesn’t matter if you’re a star performer, if I can’t trust you, it negates any positive traits.

    2. Sleepy*

      Yes, lying is unacceptable. It’s totally reasonable to want him gone. Most people don’t lie about these things, so you should easily be able to replace him with someone who is as good a worker and also honest.

    3. somanyquestions*

      Trust is important. I wouldn’t want to work with someone like that. How can you ever know what’s going on or what they’re really doing?

    4. voyager1*

      Lying too me is a really big deal. You are just catching probably half the stuff he is lying about. I would have a frank conversation about how is lack of truthfulness means you can trust him and that means he really can’t move up in the company or be given more responsibility. Sadly once the trust is gone, one really can’t earn it back. I have a manager who lies, really makes me question everything she says.

      If you think your management will support you, try and push him out the door.

    5. MissGirl*

      I suspect you already know the answer that this is a big problem. The better question is what is holding you back from taking action. Are you worried the leadership won’t support you? Are uncomfortable firing someone when they’re improving in some areas? Are you nervous about firing someone? Have you not straight up called him out on his lying?

      Good luck. This isn’t an easy job.

      1. Kendra*

        This; if you haven’t been absolutely clear to him that you know he’s lying and he needs to stop, do that. It won’t be a comfortable conversation, but it’s going to be a very revealing one, and if it doesn’t inspire an immediate change in his behavior, it’s time to say goodbye.

        1. 2Teas*

          Would your recommendation to be upfront about his lying if you are just coworkers or you are in a lower position than the liar?

    6. Adlib*

      Yes, it is reasonable. As Alison addressed in another post this week, lies at work are a BIG deal. He should probably be gone yesterday.

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      I assume that this is a rhetorical question. Of course an employee who consistently and knowingly provides incorrect information is a problem and should be let go.

    8. Pants on Fire*

      It IS a big deal to me… but I’m feeling subtle push-back from management because they get excited when I mention he is doing other things a lot better. When I remind them that he is still frequently lying, they say “Oh, but he’s doing better in the other areas? That’s good to see!” which makes me feel like they don’t share my desire to not work with someone who isn’t truthful.

      We’ve had the frank conversations that these things come off as deceitful, dishonest, lying… all the harsh words to let him know this isn’t a simple mistake. But the industry I am in has some strong rules and steps to follow before firing. And employee is not at-will (I think I’m using that correctly). So it’s taking some time.

      1. Amy*

        The lying is a big deal. They just don’t have to deal with it. When they get excited about his unrelated progress, I’d start asking them “Do you want to work with an employee who lies to you constantly?” “Would you be alright if I constantly deceived you and misled you about my work?” “What does legal say about entrusting information to an employee with known ethical problems?” “If he cannot stop being a habitual liar about work, I cannot trust him to work for me. Can we explore transferring him to work under you since you’re okay with the lying and deception?”

      2. HollyWeird*

        I had a very similar issue in the past. Employee would frequently lie about things such as project status, that he was in the office when he was not, that he executed a project when it was done by someone else, etc. He was also on a PIP and the sentiment was also the same here that they did not want to fire him but wanted me to somehow manage him out of lying/stack PIP on top of PIP. In his case, there were some allowances for this behavior due to some personal tragedies that had occurred. Eventually he quit and it came to light that what we knew about was only the tip of the iceberg and a major ethical breach had been committed. Unfortunately I do not have a lot of advice for you on this front but I would point out the management that while he is improving, you have noted X amount of circumstances where he was untruthful and that it is almost certainly only the tip of the iceberg. Documentation of these incidences could be helpful.

      3. Elizabeth*

        I think you need to point management to the business problems his lying has caused or could cause.

        For example:

        Lying means we don’t have accurate info about x, which can cause y problems, leading to z negative impact to company/clients.

        Given the frequency of lies we actually KNOW about, the risk is quite high that this will actually cause harm to our business (ie this isn’t a one time lie – it’s ongoing, so the risk is ongoing); plus, it’s possible that what we know is only the tip of the iceberg, which means the problem could be even bigger than we realize now.

        In addition, since we know about the pattern of lies and aren’t addressing it, if posed a serious risk/liability for the company – if something goes very wrong, it’s our fault because we knew he was lying.

        Lying violates our company’s ethical policies; to continue to employ someone who is a known serial liar puts us in noncompliance with our own policies and send a terrible message not just to other employees, but also to clients (how can clients trust us if we are fine with employing known serial liars?)

        Etc

      4. Perbie*

        You should probably be careful to communicate your assessment with your management. It should be “he has not improved enough to keep him; he is still too inaccurate / untruthful” not “he’s doing a lot better except this one thing!” – basically make it clear he’s still not improved enough.

        1. BethDH*

          I get the sense that management is hearing “he’s improved on 9 things out of 10” and really the lying cuts through it all so it’s that he’s really only made fringe improvements (like when my students think fixing the grammatical mistakes means they’ve now written a good paper!).
          So OP can’t frame it as “he’s improved but …”
          It will help if the PIP or other performance review and discussions center clarity and integrity. I feel like those often get left out because they are hard to talk about and hard to measure or judge objectively.

      5. Lying is not...*

        I feel your pain.
        First of all, I hear your optimism about “improvement”
        Improvement would include “not lying” This employee has not improved. I was in a similar situation with regards to not having the authority to “let go” this employee. It can be done. Document. Investigate. Meet with the employee to set out clear documentable expectations.
        On this date you said this. Upon investigation, I discovered this was not true. Do you have anything to say now. Write down what the employee says. Restate the truth. Write that down.
        Rinse, repeat.
        My employee was let go after a year and half of this.
        It was painful and exhausting.
        Now I have a team I trust and who exceed expectations. It can be done.

    9. Quinalla*

      Have you had a frank conversation with him about it, calling it out as lies and a trust issue? If you haven’t done that yet, I would, make it an official part of his PIP and see if he improves. Sounds like he’s gotten in the habit of lying to minimize his mistakes, etc.

      If you have already done this and he’s not improving, then yes you should fire him, but make sure you are covered with support from your leadership and it is documented in his PIP. How can you trust someone that you know lies consistently?

    10. The Cosmic Avenger*

      If you feel you need to try with him, maybe you can call it a communication problem he needs to fix, and call him out on its impact? “Jim, when you told me the toner was out, I went to load more, and it was full. I need you to be clearer, as I had to clean up some toner, which you know is very messy and time consuming. If we keep running into communication issues like this, we’ll need to put you on a PIP.”

    11. Jedi Squirrel*

      Lying reflects a lack of integrity. And if he doesn’t have integrity about the truth, he probably doesn’t have integrity in other areas. This is a HUGE issue. You can’t fix things you don’t have the complete truth about.

    12. pally*

      Yes, lying is a deal-breaker.
      But, why does he feel the need to lie to you? Could the company rules be reasons for him to feel it necessary to lie?

      2. Lilysparrow*

        He feels the need to lie because he won’t admit when he made a mistake. That isn’t something the company did to him. If he has a psychological need to lie, that isn’t his employer’s problem, and it isn’t something they should tolerate.

        Particularly since OP demonstrated willingness to work with him to help improve his performance.

        1. irene adler*

          Okay -so he’s protecting his ego. That’s something he will have to come to terms with. Nothing anyone can do to change this. Let him suffer the full consequences of his lying ways.

    13. Mediamaven*

      Lying is a very very big deal because it leads to many other behaviors. It should be taken very seriously.

    14. Troutwaxer*

      I agree with most of the people above that lying is a deal-breaker, but I’d ask you a question before you think of firing him; how do you react to bad news?

        1. Zona the Great*

          I think Troutwaxer is wondering if you are approachable and reasonable yourself or if you somehow make Jim feel like he has to lie to avoid trouble or yelling or some other dramatic response. A good suggestion to keep in mind even if the end result is the same–you need him to be honest.

          I lied to my parents because they beat me when they found out I broke something, for example.

          1. Pants on Fire*

            Oh… Jim is generally a bit manipulative. He tells other half truths to his coworkers about work and non-work items in an attempt to garner sympathy. So I don’t believe it is me.

            I do think the stress of the PIP has him scared to mess up, but lying to cover up that you’ve made a mistake won’t get you anything I think.

            2. Minocho*

              I would state that clearly to him. I made a huge mistake at work once. It was going to cause other teams to do extra work to correct, if it was correctable at all. As soon as I realized what I had done, I went to my boss. First we focused on correcting the issue, then he had a meeting with me where we went over what happened, and how I could avoid making a similar mistake in the future.

              One thing he said to me in that second meeting was very important. “If you had delayed coming to me, or had tried to hide what you had done, you would have been fired. Everyone makes mistakes – the important thing is to the fix the problem when a mistake happens. But lying or blaming someone else can’t be tolerated on my team.”

              I was mortified by my error and was triply careful after that mistake. But I also knew that my honesty and integrity and professionalism were appreciated and noted – and I would come forward with any mistakes I made again. I also realized that if someone didn’t have that attitude, they were probably someone I wouldn’t want to work under anyway, going forward.

          2. Lilysparrow*

            Um…Jim isn’t a child. He’s a grownup with a job. OP isn’t his parent, and they aren’t beating him.

            OP is his manager – who needs to know when he’s made an error, and that he’s taking steps to correct it.

            He’s on a PIP because his performance is poor. If he continues making significant errors, his job is in jeopardy. OP can’t help him improve his performance if he covers his errors.

      2. Alice's Rabbit*

        You make a good point. What’s more, even if OP is fine in this regard, if Jim was previously in an abusive relationship of some sort (parent, sibling, long-time friend, romantic partner, etc.) he might have developed this habit as a matter of self-preservation.
        In that case, addressing the problem might need to involve some patience. Yes, tell Jim what’s happening and why it’s a problem. But then give him some time to break the habit. Call him out each time you catch it, and encourage him to call himself out. Don’t get mad about it, because that will only make him double down. Make sure to remind him that you are determined to help him, not to punish him.
        If he won’t admit there’s a problem, or if there has been no improvement – not perfection, but at least stopping and correcting himself – in a few months, then you can’t help at this point in time. But it is worth trying.

    15. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Unless your just tracking his truthfulness just to track it and it really isn’t impacting the work getting done, then having to double check everything he tells you and pulling in IT or others is something management needs to see as a problem — it isn’t just lying is bad manners/unethical or whatever. If management needs a metric to see how Jim’s poor performance is impacting the office, that’s one to use. How much time are you wasting having to track down the truth in order to keep the work moving?

    16. Madeleine Matilda*

      “He continues to give me half truths, omit critical information that would indicate he has made a mistake, say one thing and when pressed, say something different with no acknowledgement that he is contradicting himself.”

      If he is omitting information is it because he doesn’t understand how to determine what needs to be communicated to you? What kind of half truths is he telling? He may be doing this to cover the fact that he still needs to improve in certain areas. I think it would be worth pointing out his half truths, changing facts, etc., to him and to clearly let him know that these things are indications that he still needs to improve in the areas that he is falsely communicating about. You could also let your management know that while he is making some improvements, there are still areas that need work and use these communication problems to highlight those areas.

      1. Pants on Fire*

        Here’s an example…
        Jim: Hi, can you help me troubleshoot this process I set up? It is putting the teapot handle on the top of the teapot instead of on the side and I can’t figure out why.
        Me: Ok, I see that there are 3 documents that indicate where the handle should be placed. Can you send me the documents for each of those so I can see them?
        Jim: sends process 1
        Me: That is putting the teapot handle on the side, so I think it’s not that one. What about the others?
        Jim: sends process 2
        Me: That is putting the teapot handle on the side, so I think it’s not that one. What about the last one?
        Jim: *after a delay in which he changed the document of process 3 to indicate the handle goes on the side when it had said the handle goes on the top* sends me process 3 that says handle goes on the side. Jim doesn’t mention that he just made the update.

        So he is asking me for help with a legitimate issue, the handle is being put on the top!, but the issue is that he indicated the handle should be on the top, found his mistake, didn’t say anything, and continued to ask me for help… I had to log into a protected server to get the documents and I’m not in there usually, so that’s why I asked Jim originally. When I went in there myself and worked with IT to see the versions of the documents, I can see that he made the change to the process 3 document two minutes after I asked about it. Then sent that one to me instead of the one that had been in there.

        When I told him what I knew, he told me was confused.

        1. Joielle*

          So he’s lying AND gaslighting you about it? I don’t believe for a second that he was confused about the situation. That sounds like a serious red flag to me!

          1. Just Elle*

            Yep, seriously. I’d think evidence of this one occurrence, especially when already on a PIP, is grounds enough for a firing.

            1. Artemesia*

              This. Changing documents and lying about it while on a PIP — he should be fired. It isn’t the first time when you might give a warning. This is a huge potential liability.

        2. Perbie*

          Ok, that’s just weird. Why not just say “Oops, found the Problem with doc 3 now that I’m looking at it again; problem solved, thanks!”

          1. Pants on Fire*

            Very good question. Sometimes people don’t act reasonably. Some people aren’t reasonable. Based on all I know about Jim, I don’t find him to be a reasonable person.

            1. valentine*

              He also sent one doc at a time and you had to ask twice for 2 and 3. If your colleagues don’t care about what he did here (and if you haven’t, tell them, but don’t call it lying), present it as a drain on your time. How much time are you wasting chasing after and CSI-ing Jim’s nonsense? Continue the firing process. It’s worth it.

        3. Pants on Fire*

          I continue to bring up these as examples of not just unclear communication (that’s a nice way to view it) but as examples of deception. I say that word. I say that this comes across as a lie by omission. I say that it makes me feel like I cannot trust Jim.

          Jim’s response to that so far has just been to say he feels like there is nothing he can do to earn my trust or make me feel differently, but on the record still maintains he is not lying.

          1. Lying is not an accommodation*

            This is classic behavior that cannot be tolerated. My “Jim” claimed lack of communication on my part, unclear communication and direction, outright denial.
            Put everything in writing. Ask for confirmation in writing of all directives, due dates, and job tasks.
            Do not trust anything Jim says without confirmation from another source.
            “Jim’s response to that so far has just been to say he feels like there is nothing he can do to earn my trust or make me feel differently”
            Jim’s response is not valid. If he stopped lying, you would feel differently. This is an impossible situation for you. Document, investigate and respond. Keep HR and your supervisors informed.

        4. Lying is not...*

          oh, its almost as if there was a school for this. Good job. You are documenting. Investigating. and coaching. Well done. Keep doing this and escalate the PIP so that you follow HR’s process for step discipline. Time for the oral warning that is also put in writing.
          Clear expectations- no lying.
          Here are examples of lying. Including changing dates and content of emails and documentation.
          Do you understand what I am asking of you.
          (denial of lying)
          Then we are clear that your employment is in jeopardy if you continue lying.

    17. ArtK*

      Lying is a firing offense. Lying while on a PIP is double plus ungood firing offense. For me, that would be enough to end the PIP right there and walk him to the door.

    18. LadyTesla*

      I would ask *why* Jim is lying. 9/10 a reason a employee is that way is due to some fear or emotional need that isn’t being addressed. For example, do you feel Jim does this with everyone, or just management? Or maybe just you? Do you think Jim trusts you?

      What I suspect is also that Jim believes he cannot be vulnerable and admit a problem with you. It could be you may have reacted in a way that he found threatening, or he knows you don’t believe his performance is up to snuff. The trust may not be there. He may need to see you defend him or validate that it’s okay to make mistakes without devastating consequences

      1. Just Elle*

        I think this is seriously letting him wayyyyy too far off the hook. The guy is on a PIP, of course he’s worried about losing his job. But an ethical person wouldn’t just… lie… to prevent that. And the fact that he’s willing to shows he’s missing the point of the PIP.

      2. knead me seymour*

        I think it’s a pretty basic work expectation not to lie to your boss or cover up your tracks like this. It makes it impossible to judge the rest of his work because he’s not being open about where he’s struggling. I think we should give Pants on Fire the benefit of the doubt that they’re not a horribly abusive boss, because there’s nothing in their post to suggest that. There are many other reasons Jim could be lying–it’s his default response to avoid accountability for his actions, it’s gotten him results with past bosses, he’s afraid of being fired. But he’s been spoken to about this and it hasn’t changed, and it’s a basic requirement of his job.

      3. Perbie*

        It’s really not on the workplace to meet emotional needs of employees beyond being decent to each other. That’s for a therapist or other professional. If it’s only one employee with a truthfulness problem, it’s probably not the workplace provoking it.

      4. somanyquestions*

        I am truly amazed at people trying to blame the actions of a constantly lying employee on the employer. How can you possibly think that?

        Suggesting this is some big psychological relationship drama is just inappropriate in the workplace. His (manipulative, lying) emotional needs aren’t being met? The LW needs to validate and defend the liar to make him feel trust? I am horrified at the thought of a workplace where this is the decision making.

      5. D'Arcy*

        I would argue that it *doesn’t matter* why Jim is lying. This is grossly unacceptable conduct which should see him fired for cause as quickly as possible.

        1. Constantine Binvoglio*

          Yeah, I agree that the only person who should be concerned about identifying and solving the issue of why Jim is lying is Jim (perhaps in partnership with the EAP). It’s not relevant to the business issues at hand.

          I say this as someone who had a less serious habit of dishonesty and cover-up at work earlier in my career. (To be clear, I mean ‘less serious ‘ in the sense that I didn’t revise documents or timestamps in the way I’m in does; certainly it was a serious issue. I just couldn’t find the right word to use here and landed on ‘serious ‘). Identifying the root cause was helpful for me, but really only interesting or pertinent to my own internal processes. My employer doesn’t need to know or even need to care about the childhood traumas that led to my being terrified of getting in trouble. My employer needed me to stop what I was doing immediately and remediate any wrongdoing.

          In most instances, ‘reasons why ‘ are just excuses and noise. Helpful to the person engaging in the problematic behaviors and that’s it.

      6. Avasarala*

        How do you find out why someone is lying? How do you know they won’t lie in their answer? “I don’t lie to you. I definitely trust you.”

    19. Former Govt Contractor*

      Is being truthful part of the PIP? Because if so you can simply point out to management above you that he did not meet the truthfulness requirement of the PIP when you caught him in (well documented by you) ongoing lies. If it’s not in the PIP it needs to be added. Honesty is non-negotiable and I’m surprised anyone would consider keeping a known liar on their team.

      1. Silver Radicand*

        If I had someone on a PIP and then discovered they were lying as well I’d consider that a done deal. Honesty is such a fundamental requirement that it should be assumed in any kind of PIP.

    20. Jack Russell Terrier*

      About management underplaying this because he’s been doing better. Do you have instances where if you hadn’t caught him in a lie, then the outcome could have been grave / terrible? Think how his lies are going to impact the product / service / company and throw it into sharp relief that way.

    21. WantonSeedStitch*

      Of course it’s a big deal! Integrity is an absolute must in employees. What I want to know is, are you addressing this dishonesty with him as part of the PIP, directly? If the upper management thinks Jim is turning things around, it indicates to me that you have not made this a formal issue for him to improve. I think you absolutely need to do that as soon as possible, so you can document it as a problem and ensure he knows that in order to keep his job, he’s going to have to change. If you don’t document it all, it will be harder to fire him for it if it doesn’t improve. If you have talked to Jim about the dishonesty and documented those conversations, but management isn’t concerned about it, have you talked to upper management to impress on them the fact that while his skills are improving, he is not not meeting the conditions of his PIP because he’s still being dishonest?

      If you’ve talked to Jim directly about the dishonesty as part of the PIP and he’s still doing it, and you’ve talked to your management about that and they don’t care…you might want to consider whether you’re really happy to be working for people who place such little value on integrity.

    22. Not So NewReader*

      If you are thinking that you need to prove that he is routinely lying in order to fire him, you probably don’t need to do this. With the other problems you mention he has enough going on that he should have left 3 years ago.

      If he has improved so much in other areas then he should not need to be lying at all. I would go back and try to figure out how much actual improvement has occurred. For example, if he used to miss 8 out of 10 deadlines and now he only misses 4 out of ten deadlines you still have a substantial problem here. IF he is lying about why he has missed those 4 deadlines, not that much has changed here. It’s just shifted around a little bit.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        And when an employee has been in that kind of environment and moves on, even to a healthy workplace, the fear may persist and the associated behaviours ditto. It’s possible that Jim has previous experience of a punitive environment (at home, at school, at work) which has taught him to lie just in case.

        It’s not Pants’ job to undo that conditioning but it looks like she will need to set her own red line. Deception either by concealment or untruth is unacceptable within a workplace and I think Jim needs to hear that as a separate conversation rather than an additional factor in a wider coaching/disciplinary situation.

        1. Alice's Rabbit*

          Agreed. We all have seen stories on here of situations where employees simply can’t be honest – or else! – and it creates some awful habits. Jim may well be the product of such an environment, even if he’s no longer in that situation.

    24. Lying is not an accommodation*

      I had a very similar situation when arriving at a new position and supervising a “Jim.” First things first. Document. Whatever Jim says or emails confirm. Everything. My Jim lied about small things- yes those boxes were shipped today to big things- they spent last week on document retrieval and distribution. Nope they reassigned it to someone else. Investigate- confirm with payroll that the timesheets arrived on Monday before noon, not on Wednesday at 4:00. It is exhausting. You might find out, what I did. Jim’s competency is in question. This has been going on for long time before your arrival. Others have been covering for Jim because …
      HR told me that accepting half-truths, prevarications, misinformation, and omissions are not the sign of an employee who has met their obligations with regards to a PIP. Continue to inform management of this issue.

      1. Pants on Fire*

        Yes, there was a period of about a month where I was spending so much time fact checking all the things Jim told me, that I was having to work 2-4 extra hours a night to do my regular work. I was BURNT OUT. Things escalated quickly when I told my supervisor this just wasn’t sustainable for me. At that point, HR and my grandboss said that I shouldn’t be fact checking all these things. That Jim mess up enough that something will make itself known to me. That freed my time up and mentally released the burden of basically babysitting a grown man, but it hasn’t fixed my core issue that I don’t like nor want to work with someone I cannot trust. And it means the performance management process has been much more drawn out.

        1. Rick Tq*

          If you can document his pattern of lying based on that research I’d say it is time to terminate him.

          If Jim can’t be trusted he shouldn’t have a job there.

        2. Lying is not...*

          Yes, and it is time to meet with management and lay out your dept. goals for work.
          At each point of the PIP process I was urged to “give up” or don’t give “Jim” any work that would impact the department or its reputation.
          “Jim” had a personable affect when he wasn’t complaining about my abusive micro-managing managerial style.
          My division had NEVER fired anyone.
          And I am not kidding. It was a solid year and half of part time work writing up the documentation. (yes, 2 to 3 hours every night)
          Here is one thing that did help, another manager agreed to take “Jim” for a special project for a short period of time. She experienced exactly the same issues with “Jim” and was able to corroborate the seriousness of the what seemed compulsive behavior.

          The best thing someone told me during this difficult time was that
          A. lying is not an accommodation ( my Jim was manipulative and made claims that previous supervisors were so abusive that explained the “miscommunication”
          B. there was someone out there who deserved this position and would do it well, who I could trust.
          C. Jim was obviously not happy in this position and would be somewhere else.

          1. Pants on Fire*

            I really appreciate your comments in the thread.

            A year and a half, woof…. so glad you finally got your strong team!

            1. Lying is not...*

              I know. I still have a bankers box of printed out documentation. The year and a half was hell but things got immediately better afterwards. There was a lot of stress that took a toll on my physical and mental well-being. Your letter brought it back fresh but I am here to say you will make it to the other side.
              Ask for help. Follow the rules.

    25. Anon Here*

      Lying is a problem because it puts people at risk. Who else is he lying to? What is he lying about? What else might be going on there? What does he think he can get away with?

      You need people you can trust. This person can’t be relied on.

    26. WalkedInMyShoes*

      Jim must be the management’s favorite person who reminds me of my former manager. He happens to be friends with a board member. He was put in a high-level executive role, but he would spin the story to suit himself even if that means the truth has been twisted, and he is caught in a lie. I have caught him several times with lies, but he would spin the story of that’s not what he meant. Sadly, I lost my job, because I kept pointing out things that he promised to do and didn’t. I would highly recommend speaking with the employee and mentioned what you are expecting from him and discuss what the next steps are such as termination of his employment. Make sure that the management knows, because it might back-fire like what I experienced. Sometimes, there are people who lie to protect themselves. Just my two cents.

  2. Annabelle*

    What should I do about an old coworker/friend that wants to keep plan a trip and won’t take a hint?

    More details:
    I worked (indirectly, not in the same group) with Fergus for about 2 years. Our jobs didn’t have a lot of overlap, but we would hang out at happy hours and eventually went on a weekend trip with other coworkers. Then I got a job multiple states away and took it. I keep in touch with the close friend that I made there, and check in with my other previous coworkers to keep those connections. However, Fergus keeps texting and trying to plan another weekend trip to a different location (think Las Vegas or New Orleans) and says that no one else wants to go so it would just be the two of us. I’m uncomfortable with this for many reasons: I consider him more of a coworker than a friend, and he’s hinted at the past at wanting more but I’ve always shut it down.

    So far I’ve pushed off the trip, saying it’s not in my budget or I was too busy at work (both true!) but every week or so he calls to plan it. I don’t want to ruin my professional relationship with him, but I also feel like he’s pushing this trip that was briefly mentioned in the “oh, that would be a fun trip to do, maybe we could do that in the future” way (over 2 years ago!) too much and won’t drop it.

    Does anyone have advice for what to say to him? I tend to be pretty blunt and am working to soften my statements – I don’t want to say “hey, you read too much into a coworker situation and I need you to move on” but I do want this dropped once and for all.

    1. 1234*

      How about “I know you are super excited about this trip but I don’t see it happening for the foreseeable future on my part. It’s still not in my budget and I don’t have any time I can take off from my new job. I’m sure you will have just as much fun taking this trip with one of your other friends or a family member!”

      1. Annabelle*

        Not really as I like to do weekend trips a lot, I’ve just been busy in the past year or so and haven’t had time to take any trips (which I can now start doing again! But I already anticipate questions about why this trip over that one so I want to be prepared).

        1. WellRed*

          But if he’s not an actual friend, does he need to know about your other trips? At any rate, he doesn’t get to lay claim to your time.

    3. WellRed*

      Can you just say something like, “Oh, that was fun when we were all working together, but I’ve moved on.” Others have indicated they don’t want to go, so can you.

    4. Fiona*

      “Our jobs didn’t have a lot of overlap” “I got a job multiple states away and took it”
      …would it be such a bad thing if your relationship DID end? It doesn’t seem like it would affect your career. At this point I’d recommend reframing it in your mind as “Fergus is ruining his professional relationship with ME” with his behavior. I think you can be pretty direct in saying that you enjoyed your past collegial friendship but you’re not interested in taking a weekend trip just the two of you. If he has a problem with that, that’s on his end. Return awkward to sender, as they say!

        1. valentine*

          would it be such a bad thing if your relationship DID end?
          Rules-lawyering boundary trampling Fergus has been after you for two years (and I’m wondering if he even asked anyone else on the trip; this smells like John Green luring his future wife). Can you really trust him not to twist every interaction to get close to you? I don’t think there’s anything you can say that will have him dialing it back to networking. The script you find too blunt is perfect.

          If possible, interact with the others without him. Stop any group stuff that’s happening. Block him wherever possible.

      2. Marthooh*

        Yeas . It sounds like the relationship is already getting unprofessional, so “I’m just not interested, thanks anyway!” is all you need to say. Or, okay, you may have to say it more than once, but … there is no perfect sentence that will convey your disinterest in a romance along with your continuing goodwill towards Fergus as a business peer, and that also won’t hurt his feelings or make him resentful, so just be clear on the one point that you don’t actually want to go.

    5. Just Elle*

      I think you’d be doing him a kindness by just being honest “Fergus, to be honest, a trip like this just isn’t how I’d like to spend my time and money.” If he suggests alternatives you can say “Fergus, I’m sorry if I’m making the wrong assumptions about your intentions, but I just wanted to be clear that I don’t see us being more than colleagues.”
      If you deliver an honest but kind reply, and it ruins your relationship, that’s on him for having crappy boundaries and not being able to take a hint.. not on you.

    6. Academia Escapee*

      Flat out say, “No. Not interested in going on a trip. Thanks for asking, but it’s a hard pass for me.” If he presses for a reason, you can say, “No is a complete statement. How odd that you keep pushing this after I’ve given you a definitive answer. Please don’t bring it up again or I’m going to consider it a problem.” No need to be soft about it or make excuses – be direct. It’s never going to happen, so stop asking. He’s the one who won’t drop something from 2 years ago. If he doesn’t let it go after explicitly being told no, then he’s the one with the issue, not you. He’s the one who can deal with it. If he can’t let it go, block him and go on with your life.

      1. Mimi Me*

        This is where I fall too. It takes practice to not give reasons or soften a No, but if you push through those moments where there’s a pause after your no (the one where they’re waiting for a reason, but most are too polite to ask for it) it’s very freeing. Occasionally I get someone who asks me why I’m saying No. I always smile as I give them the same reason I give my kids “Because I’m a grown up and can say no if I want to.” :)

    7. mananana*

      I would be careful about offering any “reasons” for not wanting to go (budget, time off, etc) because he will always be able to counter that. It’s a far greater kindness to say “Fergus, I’m sorry for being unclear about this, but I don’t want to go to Vegas with you.” Now how about dem Bears, the Arctic freeze, the price of tea in China…… “

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yes, this. Giving him a reason just gives him something to argue against. I’d say something like “I just don’t see myself taking that kind of trip any more” and if he pushes, give him a very vague response. “It’s just not the kind of thing I do now,” or something like that.

    8. Emilitron*

      I see that undertone of does-he-think-its-a-date awkwardness, you gotta shut that down. I’d try “Vegas sounded interesting [or “wasn’t out of the question” if you want to be less positive] when (whoever) brought it up as a coworker group, but no, I don’t think I’d be interested in a duo trip. Next time I’m back in (old city) I’d love to get the old team together though!”

      2. hbc*

        I like that because it shuts down the date thing without giving him room to be all “oh, you misread, this is completely platonic.” Just, “Not really up for a one-on-one kinda trip, Fergus, but I might be able to free up some time if we manage to get the whole band back together.”

    9. beanie gee*

      If you don’t want to be super blunt, you could say “I really liked our trips with coworkers when I was with the company, but now that I’m at a new job and farther away, it’s just not how I want to spend my little time off. I hope we can keep in touch otherwise, but I’d prefer if you stop asking about it. Thanks for understanding.”

    10. Quill*

      You need to say it’s not in your budget/plans for a time much longer than it would take to plan this weekend: either permanently “I don’t think that location is feasible for me anymore” on a basis of what is planned “I’m not gambling anymore” (this is only because you mentioned vegas) or “I’m going to take this year to settle into my new role and location, I won’t be up for a trip that extensive.” (Only if you wouldn’t be adverse to meeting him for, say, dinner if he happened to be in the same town.)

      1. annony*

        Yeah. Make it clear that this isn’t a temporary impediment. “While that trip sounds fun, realistically it isn’t something that I will ever do. I have a limited amount of vacation time and money and going on a trip with you isn’t something that I can prioritize.”

    11. Not So NewReader*

      “I know in the past I indicated that a trip like that would be fun. But my circumstances have changed, so I am no longer able to do this trip together.”

      Notice how there is no tangible reason why, so he has nothing he can latch on to a refute or try to argue over.

      I am thinking you might not have to be worried about professional impact as others are declining to go with him also.

    12. Important Moi*

      I think “Honesty as a Kindness” is the best approach. The argument could just as easily be made that by not being direct this is being needlessly prolonged.

    13. Annabelle*

      Thanks all! I think I’ll do a combination of the responses and say something along the lines of “The trips were great when it was all of us, but it’s not something I want to spend time/money on moving forward. I’ll definitely reach out whenever I’m back to see everyone!”
      (I also tend to have acquaintances/friends that see me as more of a close friend than I do them, which I’m trying to figure out how to solve in general.)

      1. Rick Tq*

        Still too soft, Fergus is likely to read that ‘definitely reach out’ phrase as permission to stay in contact. If you have no interest in Fergus just tell him so. Bluntly. “Fergus, we worked together but I don’t consider you a someone I would travel with.”

        Have you blocked his number and email address(es) at your end?

        1. Annabelle*

          I tend to consider blocking someone as the last resort. As in, he started texting inappropriate comments or photos. I don’t think this would extend to that level, as I haven’t been clear enough in shutting the trip down so he may think he’s just following up (while also ignoring social cues, but that’s more up in the air.). Are you seeing something more in this situation that warrants blocking him (I’m genuinely curious)?

          1. Rick Tq*

            It depends on the frequency and tone of Fergus’ messages, but he is annoying enough for you to post at AAM.

            Blocking or ignoring his messages will eventually get the point across after a final “No” message.

          2. Rainy*

            I mean, it sounds like you don’t want to be in touch with him in a non-professional capacity, and he won’t take a hint about that, which is reason enough to block someone in my book.

          3. Avasarala*

            Personally I would just ignore. Blocking does the same thing without the level of finality and having to figure out settings to do/undo. I go based on someone’s vibe whether to leave their messages unread forever, read them and not reply, or block.

        2. knead me seymour*

          Eh, I think this script sounds good as the next phase of politely blowing Fergus off. If he keeps being a pest after this, that’s the time to shut him down more bluntly.

    14. Wishing You Well*

      Try this: text him “No, I can’t do a trip.” Then stop taking his messages. Block his number. Nothing short of a yes will satisfy him, so don’t even try to come up with the perfect “no”. YOU have the power to drop this once and for all. You can do this.

    15. BigLo*

      A lot of people hear only the reasoning for why you can’t do something and assume you would do it but for that reasoning. Fergus is requiring you to be direct; maybe you can use the others backing out a as a crutch and say “Sorry, I’m not interested anymore either, but I hope you find someone to join you soon!” He will probably ask why, and you can just reiterate you’re just not really interested in a trip.

    16. kt*

      Captain Awkward has some good advice on this sort of thing. I think you should be very straightforward and clear — *don’t* soften your statements at all — because being blunt and clear now will save you a load of trouble down the road as he keeps pushing and manipulating because oh oops he’s ‘not picking up social cues’ ‘you didn’t say it clearly enough’ blah blah blah.

      This is a fairly common pattern, and you should stop doing the steps if you don’t want to dance. Social pressure will be used *against you* to keep you from being direct and keep you roped into this contact. It’s not even about the trip — it’s an excuse to keep calling and texting and emailing you. Do you want to talk to this person every week?

      You don’t exactly specify the gender dynamic or if this person wants romance/etc, but I’ve experienced versions of this dynamic across gender combos and across levels of desired “more” (romantic/non-romantic). Your desire to maintain social niceties/community/professional relationships/whatever is the tool to prolong contact in any of these situations.

      1. Important Moi*

        I’ve noticed in the comments I’m not the only one who reads Captain Awkward.

        The voice is different there. I just don’t feel like that type of directness is welcome here.

        1. biobotb*

          Seems like that’s because Captain Awkward mostly advises people on personal relationships and issues while AAM mostly advises people on how to handle relationships with colleagues. I think people tend to recommend more diplomacy in work relationships.

        2. ampersand*

          I think it’s more the intended audience (who are on the receiving end of the bluntness).

          CA=often friend or family (sometimes acquaintance-type) situations.

          AAM=work/colleagues, who at the end of the day you still have to have a cordial and professional relationship with.

          CA will shut stuff DOWN. I do love that about her.

          1. Avasarala*

            I think CA also gets more questions about actual abuse, whereas a lot of stuff here is just annoying or mildly rude. One warrants a level 5 shutdown, one deserves going nuclear.

    17. Short & Sweet*

      “I’m going to need my vacation time for other things in 2020, so you should find someone else to go with you on that trip. Sorry it didn’t work out!”

    18. The Tin Man*

      Advice is pretty well-covered but just chiming in to say

      HE CALLS EVERY WEEK TO TRY TO PLAN THIS TRIP. WHAT.

      Depends on how much you care about him saving face (despite this uncomfortable behavior) but something like “Fergus, the fact that you are bringing this up so frequently makes me feel uncomfortable. I really would rather just be friendly former coworkers and don’t want to go on a trip alone with you”. Or leave out the “alone” bit.

      On a related note, I’m not too shocked that nobody else wants to go. Unless that’s a plot to get you two alone but I think the former is slightly more likely (though not by much).

    19. Horseshoe*

      You don’t seem to have a professional relationship to ruin? Fergus thinks you have a personal relationship and can’t take a hint. That’s incredibly weird to ask about this every other week many times.

      I like being blunt myself, and I think it might be kinder to tell him “I feel like a trip with just us two would imply more about our relationship than I want to. I am happy to go on a trip with a group [if that’s true!], but don’t feel comfortable with just two of us. I hope you can understand this.” If he gets it then, he’ll probably deny he ever meant more than friendship (which will be his way of trying to save a professional relationship, but will also make you feel a bit like the bad guy. Ignore this.)

      There’s a way to say it softer than “You need to move on” but I’d consider being more harsh if a clear but polite explanation doesn’t stop him asking.

    20. Don't get salty*

      Pardon me, but if I were you I would definitely want to torpedo any sort of relationship with this man, business or otherwise. What exactly does he have to offer that makes you willing to put up with this inappropriate behavior of his?

    21. LilySparrow*

      “Hey Fergus, I realized I’ve been too indirect about this, and the hint isn’t coming across.

      The trip isn’t going to happen. It’s time to drop it. I hope you can put something together with the others and have a great time, but I’m out.

      Take care.”

    22. Alice's Rabbit*

      “Fergus, I’m not going to be able to go on a trip with you. It was one thing when it was a group of coworkers, but I don’t work there anymore, and I need to concentrate on my new job. I hope we can get the whole gang together for dinner or something, next time I’m back in town. Thanks for understanding!”
      That last bit is crucial, because it puts him on the spot. He either needs to accept what you’ve said or give up any pretense of being polite. And it doesn’t give him any excuses to argue against. Circumstances have changed, that’s all.

  3. Just Elle*

    I’d love to hear your opinions on the value of an online (or part time) MBA for someone 5 years out of college and hoping to be a director one day. Right now I work as a project manager for an engineering technology company. I went to school for engineering.

    I’m also curious whether alternative graduate degrees like Technology Management, Leadership, Risk Management, or Project Management are considered equivalent by hiring managers. The curricula of most online MBA programs in my price range sound…. Not nearly as exciting as some of these alternatives.

    I’m fortunate to work for a company that offers education reimbursement. The downside is, this means it’s required of people who want to advance beyond mid-level managers. I’m not sure I want to stay here long enough for that to matter, but I have FOMO abound passing up this benefit only to have to pay out of pocket for it later. Is this kind of expectation the new normal?

    Many of my colleagues are going to the local state school, and their group project horror stories sound unbearable. But I can likely get into a higher ranked online program – if the extra effort of a higher ranked but not top school is worth it. Will I be pleasantly surprised to learn valuable things? Will future employers really care about an MBA, or any other business graduate degree, enough to make 2 years of sacrifice worth it? Or am I better off spending those extra hours throwing myself into my actual job and impressing people with my dedication?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      If an MBA is your goal then you want the following:
      1. An AACSB accredited school
      2. A decently ranked (although some of those rankings are popularity contests, so look at methodology) school
      3. A school you can afford that has good ROI, look at outcomes data and the recent Georgetown study

      Online or onsite doesn’t matter. That said, if a specialized master’s is what interests you then do that. Do some hiring managers things MBA is the one ring…sure. But that’s not everyone or even most.

      **I’m the assistant dean of an AACSB accredited business school

      2. voyager1*

        Real management experience > MBA

        However sometimes a MBA will get your foot in the door to management.

        I am in banking and when I see some folks with MBAs, to me I see underemployed with no management experience and no prospects of getting it. But they think that piece of paper will make the difference.

        Your industry may be different though.

      3. Just Elle*

        Thanks, it’s great to have your perspective, and I’ll look at the ROI studies for sure!

        I think one thing I’m really struggling with is the effort vs payoff of a higher level school, and how high I really want to go. At what point is getting into “the best / hardest” school just… Harder and more expensive. I don’t want to work for a big 4 consulting company, but I am scared of limiting myself also. At what point is there diminishing return on the quality of education? Half of me wants to do “the best I can be.” The other half wants to balance that with life and success in my day job. And a very small part wants the easiest possible path to the piece of paper.

        1. TotesMaGoats*

          Have you thought about a graduate certificate instead? It’s shorter and since it’s generally very focused, it can be more helpful in the job market. Just make sure you get one that is within a stackable degree at your target university. That way you know the credits won’t be wasted.

          1. Just Elle*

            Unfortunately, my company’s reimbursement program doesn’t cover certificates. Which, with the lower cost of certificates, may be less relevant… But my undergrad student debt is so outlandish
            that I’m pretty reluctant to add to it.
            Do you have any sense of whether employers would actually value it as a near-equivalent?

        2. lemon*

          Um, are you me? Because I’m struggling with the same dilemma right now. :)

          I’m leaning towards applying to more highly-ranked schools, mostly because a lot of the value of getting an MBA seems to be the networking/learning from your peers aspect of things. I’m currently getting my MS from a local university that has a good reputation, but isn’t highly ranked. I’m actually really disappointed by where my peers are at in terms of skills and knowledge. I don’t think I’m actually getting anything out all of these group projects because I have to spend most of my time teaching people how to write at the college-level. If anything, a higher-ranked program has stricter admission’s standards, which means it’s more likely that your peers will have basic things like writing skills and enthusiasm and motivation for what they’re studying.

          So, I think it’s helpful to think about what kinds of interactions you’d like to have with your peers. Are you hoping to network and learn from your classmates? Will you be ok working on projects with people who have different skill-levels?

          Also, in terms of higher-ranked schools being more difficult to get into… I read that evening and weekend MBA programs are much easier to get into. Like, schools with a 10-20% acceptance rate to the daytime, full-time MBA program can have a 60-70% acceptance rate to their part-time or online programs. So, you know, something to keep in mind.

          1. Just Elle*

            Haha certainly sounds like it! I actually have a very similar story to your current experience. For undergrad I went to a well regarded top-50 school and loved my peers. The work was insanely tough and I cried like, a lot, but my peers were all exactly as driven as me and many were so brilliant that I felt like I learned more from them than my teachers.
            Then, for money reasons, I had to transfer to a school ranked 300th regionally. Which meant I needed to do my capstone project with my peers. It. Was. Awful. None of the kids… cared. At all. And like you’re pointing out, writing and other skills were just not up to par. I felt like I spent the rest of my education with the led weight of uncaring teammates dragging me down, and my GPA at that school actually ended up being worse than at the first school (of course, I was also working full time…)

            So, I’m torn. One of the main benefits I see to an online program is the more limited group project dynamic and the access to a ‘higher level’ of peers. But then, one of the main things I want out of an MBA is experience with communication and persuasive meeting conversation – something I expect an online class to lack. There’s only one part time MBA program within easy commuting distance of me, and my colleagues tell me group project horror stories about it all the time.

        3. Jules the 3rd*

          A general MBA gives you tools to see the big picture, and gives you a basic intro to a lot of different functions. My 1st year classes were Strategy, Marketing, Accounting, Finance, Human Resources, Grad Economics + 2 specialty classes. Once you cover those basics, good programs will have specialties like Project Management or (from my school) Tech Commercialization or Supply Chain. Once you cover TMG’s most excellent basics, look into the specialties at your plausible schools and see what you like.

          I live within 30 miles of 2 major business schools (top 25 consistently) and a 3rd that was just starting at a well-respected public university that has a focus on more technical degrees. It was billed as ‘MBA for Geeks.’ Graduates from the 2 big ones tended to go into Finance / Consulting. I went for the MBA for Geeks, and am *very* happy with that choice. I do not expect / want to be a director, but the degree has opened doors, and has helped me in my role as ‘interpreter between silos’. I started being able to talk to programmers and engineers, but the degree helped me talk to Finance, Risk Managers, and Sales, which I do at least weekly.

      4. Mouse*

        Do you have a link to the Georgetown study you mentioned? I tried to find it but had no luck–I might be using the wrong search terms.

    2. OtterB*

      My experience is old so may or may not be relevant. (I earned my MBA part time … wow, 35 years ago … while working full time as a programmer/systems analyst/project leader.) I had a BS in computer science and found the MBA very helpful in terms of learning more about the big view of business. I have never used details of finance or accounting but they have been helpful in things like project budgets. I never intended to use the degree to move into Big Anything, and didn’t. As it turned out, the Organizational Behavior classes combined with my project leader experience actually changed my career direction. I found that projects succeeded or failed on people grounds much more than on technical grounds, and that led me to earn a PhD in Industrial/Organizational psychology. I work as a social scientist on higher-education STEM related projects, and like it a lot.

      There were no online programs in my day. Hearing from other students was both a plus (experience in lots of industries) and a minus (long-winded, self-important folks). Overall, I’d say there’s value in something that engages you with other students and not just with the material.

      Re MBA vs. other graduate degrees, unless you have your eye on a career track that you know requires something specific, I’d say pick with an eye to what you prefer in a program of study, tempered by reputation of the institution/program for delivering what it promises. IMO specific degree titles don’t matter as much as how you shape a story of your career development for future hiring managers. So you want to be able to say, I got interested in this, or I wanted to learn more about that, or I wanted to prepare myself to move into this other related area. Not just, well, the benefit was there so I thought I’d use it. (Not implying that’s what you said here. Just saying that as you choose among programs, think of what story you want it to contribute to.)

      1. PSB*

        This is really interesting to me. I have a technical background but a BA in Management. I found my Organizational Behavior class absolutely fascinating and had the same insight you did about people factors vs technical factors. I kicked around going straight into a graduate program in Organizational Psychology but couldn’t justify adding to my student load debt at the time. I started moving away from technical roles and am currently an IT project manager. I’ve gotten to the level that lack of a graduate degree is uncommon. I’m still thinking about pursuing Organizational Behavior at some point, especially since I have some of the finance and accounting background in my BA.

        Have you found your technical background helpful in your current role? I’m one of very few PMs in my organization who have technical experience and I think it’s useful to understand the context and approach of the technical folks on my project teams, but my non-technical colleagues do just fine without it too.

        1. Just Elle*

          Yes I think it’s so interesting too! One of my favorite classes from undergrad was a grad-level organizational psych class, and I’ve applied it a lot. I actually work in more of a business process management / organizational structure role now that has me wishing I knew more.

          As far as your second question… My mom is a really high level individual contributor at a software company. She once told me she’d take 1 project manager with some technical understanding over 10 with no technical understanding. She gets very, very frustrated by managers who just don’t understand why x takes so long or y bug is so critical… And therefore can’t effectively petition higher ups for more resources/time… Plus she wastes so much of her time explaining it to the.

        2. OtterB*

          My technical background is obsolete but still helpful because it instilled a certain way of thinking that continues to apply while the technology changes. I wouldn’t try to manage a technical project at this point, but my experience is helpful in communicating with technical people and in asking appropriate questions. I don’t think you have to know the technical details to manage a project, but you do need to understand the structure of the problem, likely trouble spots, etc.

    3. ACDC*

      My husband is doing his Master’s in Finance from CSU (Colorado State University). It’s VERY affordable to the point that we have been able to pay for all of it out of pocket. He has learned a lot from doing this program, and he is set to graduate in June 2020. His income has doubled since starting the program because of the valuable, real-world-applicable skills he has learned. So in my biased opinion, if you can find an affordable program that works for you, go for it!

    4. DidYouSeeThatPlay?*

      I’m director-level in a technical field. I hire a fair number of technical folks, and for me? A master’s degree (of any sort) is a significant differentiator. In my opinion, a master’s is *definitely* worth the time and effort (it certainly was for me). From my perspective a few things are worth considering:
      1. It has to be from a *real* school, not the University of Phoenix. Beyond that? The school doesn’t matter much. Part time is perfectly fine. Don’t sweat the ranking. Unless it’s Harvard (on the high end) or Phoenix (on the low end), few people are going to care.
      2. What you focus on *in* your degree is more important that the degree itself. As long as you can demonstrate that the master’s is *relevant* to the job you are going for, A MBA, a MS in Engineering Management, a MS in Organizational Leadership….the fact you are motivated to continue your education, and that education is somehow directly relevant to your job is critical. This is particularly true if you are looking to move into management.

      As an employer? I *definitely* will give more attention to a resume with a master’s on it than one with just a BS. It won’t get you a job, but it will pique my interest, and will definitely help your career.

      1. Just Elle*

        Thanks, this is great feedback!

        My general interpretation of a graduate degree is that it won’t automatically get me a higher level job, but could give me skills to become a better lower-level manager, and then when the time comes for the promotion it might give me a slight edge.

        1. DidYouSeeThatPlay?*

          One other option that might address the time concerns you have could be a MS in Organizational Leadership. These are typically treated similarly to a MBA by most businesses, but many (including the one that I did) are Saturday-only programs that can readily be completed in 5 years on a very part-time basis, or much faster at a higher class density. I have seen several programs that are designed similarly. The program that I was in had a set of core requirements (typical business requirements – business law, HP, accounting/finance, management, etc.) but were designed so that you could emphasize your areas of interest within that framework (I emphasized technology and risk management). It was a very good balance among balancing the intellectual curiosity that should drive most of us, structured education that helps fill in the business/organizational gaps of technical professionals, and adding a respected and valuable credential for the long run.

        2. WheezyWeasel*

          I’d agree with that interpretation. The experience you get from the graduate degree is going to bump your skill level up considerably, and the results you generate in your current role will affect your promotion more than the degree itself.

          If your graduate program experience is like mine:

          – You’ll be able to look at problems from different perspectives. Let’s say you don’t agree with a policy affecting your current role operationally. Coursework around corporate strategy or culture can help you understand that the the policy may be in place to better allow the company to be bought out in 2-3 years, or because the company is switching to a different market.

          – You’ll be able to speak and write more succinctly for higher level audiences. I have drastically improved my writing since my undergraduate days and early work career, and it’s been noticed.

          – You’ll understand how different skills are valued: I now understand that my manager doesn’t need to know how to do my job, she has a completely different skillset that the company needs. I’ve also been able to show support to my manager in different ways after a graduate degree : presenting the problem upfront and how it affects me or my metrics, along with possible solutions. It has made me a better employee.

          A final note: I was able to change jobs twice while in the graduate program and just having the school and program of study listed with an expected graduation date on the resume got a lot more interest.

          1. Just Elle*

            It’s good to hear this. The feedback from my colleagues who have gone to the state school is that it contributed 0% to their current knowledge base. Basically it was just an expensive piece of paper to them. But I was hoping that was atypical and more a symptom of the lower level school.

            1. DidYouSeeThatPlay?*

              One thing to keep in mind about that is that, in terms of what you learn and the skills you develop, it is that grad school is vastly different than undergrad. What you learn and develop is much more dependent upon what you WANT to learn and develop, and how much effort you put into it. Most grad school programs allow you to focus what you are learning and emphasize your areas of interest.

              If you want it to add greatly to your decision-making abilities and knowledge, it can. But it can just as easily be an exercise in doing only what is necessary to add a valuable set of postnominal letters to your name. It is largely up to you.

    5. Goldfinch*

      The people in my company who follow the career path you are talking about tend to get a Master’s in Engineering Management.

    6. Alternative Person*

      If you’re still in your twenties, it might be a little too early to get an MBA. The thing about MBAs is they often look good on a CV, but like most degrees, the skills and knowledge can end up out of date before you really get the benefit from it. And with MBAs in particular, they’re a potential career refresh that can make a lot of difference if you end up changing industry later on. Even if you stay the course at your current place, you might want the flexibility to chose an MBA most closely aligned with the skills you need (you can get MBAs with a focus on logistics for example). You might be better taking another option for now (five years is a decent time for a diploma or field related masters) and coming back to the MBA later

      1. Just Elle*

        This is something I’ve thought about a lot. I love the executive MBA track, and the emphasis it puts on communication skills that I wouldn’t get in an online program. The trouble is, most are over $200k! And require 10 years experience.
        Unfortunately I’m at a grade level in my current company where the next promotion job postings all specify “master’s degree preferred” and above that is “required” so while I agree that 10 years is a better time frame, if I want to wait that long I have to get a different master’s now, or go to a different company to continue my career progression.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          6 years is reasonable, and by the time you’re done you’ll be at 8. Go when you can afford it…

    7. ArtK*

      Look for “Executive MBA” programs. These are usually structured so that you don’t have a lot of class time. They try to work around people who are working! Beyond that, do look for an accredited program associated with a real university. Avoid the for-profit degree mills.

      As for other equivalent degrees, I can’t advise. My degree is an MS with a specialization in Engineering Management. It had a lot of overlap with the MBA program but was specifically for people in engineering — we’re an odd breed!

      1. Just Elle*

        I love the executive MBA track, and the emphasis it puts on communication skills that I wouldn’t get in an online program. The trouble is, most are over $200k! And require 10 years experience.

    8. Admin*

      I briefly did some admin at the MIT system design and management program, which is a joint master’s granted by the engineering and a management schools. It’s geared toward mid-career people looking to get a leg up into higher roles. The tuition is very expensive, but the payoff seemed to be good as far as the earnings increase people saw. The major thing I noticed was that there was a big focus on the job search for the students – the people running the program were in touch with a lot of recruiters, held job fairs and cross country trips to visit companies (with students getting input into who they visited) that resulted in networking opportunities, interviews, and later, job offers. Very different from my undergrad experience in a (different) STEM degree at a different school.

      Obviously some of this is the strength of the MIT brand, but I think it’s worth knowing that some schools do put specific effort into job placement opportunities for students (and alumni!), as well as development of practical job skills, which might make the degree worth more to you, and is definitely worth asking about if you research programs. My sense is that more schools are starting to offer engineering management degrees and certificates – look up MEMPC, which is a consortium of schools that offer those programs.

      1. Just Elle*

        Thanks, that program looks so interesting! (Although, 90+24 credits? Wow thats a lot!).
        Unfortunately there’s a payback clause in my tuition reimbursement program, so I wouldn’t be able to make use of career services for 2 years after graduation. Do you have any insight into whether they help students so far after graduation? Like, do past graduates attend career fairs?

        1. Admin*

          That’s a good question that I unfortunately don’t know enough to answer! I know that alumni were invited to some of the celebratory end of year/graduation time events, as well as some throughout the year I think, so there were definitely networking opportunities for program graduates from different years to get together, but I’m not sure about the more outwardly focused job placement stuff.

          I will say that it wasn’t at all unusual for students to be in the same situation you were in, so it’s one they’d be very familiar with. Definitely worth reaching out to the admissions officers at whatever programs you are interested in and asking what they offer in this regard, as well as former students if you have the opportunity to.

    9. Daisy-dog*

      I definitely understand not wanting to pass up that benefit! And really, I think education should be a personal choice and you should go with something that you think you’ll most enjoy. The “value” won’t really mean much if you don’t enjoy the process and can’t speak passionately about later.

      Though online degrees still hold a stigma. If you can go to a brick-and-mortar school online (I did), then it is probably better.

    10. Hush42*

      I just finished my MBA online in December. I started June 2017 and finished December 2018. The criteria that I was looking for when I chose a school were- it HAD to be AACSB accredited, it had to have decent review, it had to have a full time online program, and it had to be in my price range. I stayed away from any school that was an “online” school. I only looked at degree programs that were from established schools that had an online program for the degree rather than schools that were 100% online schools.

      I don’t regret my MBA and I got it for similar reasons as you are considering- I wanted to be able to move up within my company. However, I 100% believe that MBAs are only helpful if you already have experience to go with it- otherwise it just becomes a piece of paper that makes it harder to get a job because, for most positions you’re over qualified in the education department but under qualified in the experience department. I worked full time while getting my MBA and gained a promotion to a management position while still working on my degree. this means that I have some management experience (although not a ton yet) under my belt to go with my MBA.

  4. Going Going Gone*

    Does anyone have to follow more restrictive T&E policies than your official company policy says? Our official policy states that higher ups have different limits (understandably) but my director restricts certain things our official policy allows. Some things I understand but some I don’t (I’m not allowed to expense dinner for working late- doesn’t happen that often- but the official policy states I can).

    My coworker has already talked to my director with no luck and of course this legal- just wondering if it’s common. FWIW, I work at a large, global consulting firm- this isn’t a small company/non-profit.

    1. Anoymer*

      Ew. Sounds like your director is trying to get kudos for lower costs in his budget by not allowing your team the same perks as everyone else.

      1. Going Going Gone*

        You’re absolutely right that’s what is happening and I’m not sure whether this is normal or ok. I work in a support department so we don’t bill but other non-billing departments were surprised to hear these restrictions. I don’t think I could or would take it to HR but the team has had high turnover and there’s some other things going on that make me feel not appreciated so I wonder if this is part of why the team is a revolving door.

        1. Formerly in HR*

          If you are a unionised employee, then the collective agreement states whether you are reimbursed or not – and the union would not be pleased to hear of interpretations different than what was signed. Even if you are not unionised, if the company policy says you are allowed to reimburse meals for working late then that’s it. Do you have a help desk for HR or for Finance that you can contact more from the perspective of ‘ I worked late on day x and had to buy dinner, which policy says I can reimburse – can you please point towards the job aid for how do I submit this?’ If manager declines, then you can escalate it again to said help desk.

    2. Academia Escapee*

      I don’t have personal experience with a situation like that, but I wonder if it’s a case of the director trying to keep the department budget in check and not allowing anything s/he deems “unnecessary” so budget numbers make him/her look like a rock star.

    3. CL Cox*

      I work for a school and our principal can set up certain limits/guidelines that are more or less restrictive than the district says, but never anything that is in direct conflict with what the district says. For instance, she can say that purchases above a certain amount require pre-approval before I can order them or maybe that only one teacher per team will get time off pre-approved, but she can’t say, for instance, that I won’t get reimbursed for mileage if I have to drive to a different school to pick something up, since our district says that I can.

      Have you tried pushing back on this policy and asking your director why he won’t let you be reimbursed? If the company policy is that you get reimbursed, then the only thing I can think of is if you are not approved to stay late, but are doing it of your own volition (and not getting paid overtime), then the company policy might not apply.

    4. CAA*

      Would these expenses be billed to your consulting contracts or to overhead? In some cases you may have to follow the client’s policies (e.g. especially if the client is the U.S. government) rather than your own company’s policies for what can be expensed. However, if you’re on site at the client’s location (or en route to/from client), then it’s beyond cheap to deny you dinner.

      If you’re working at your own office location, and routinely needing to expense dinners, then that’s a different issue. Clients may object to paying for meals when you’re not traveling. Your boss may feel that people should have better work-life balance and dinner shouldn’t be part of the job; or someone else may have abused this perk in the past.

      I’ve never had a job where the company would pay for dinner just for a single person working late, but I’ve expensed many group dinners where I had a team staying late to deploy new software overnight or on a weekend and I think that’s pretty standard. If the company is actually telling you that you have to stay late vs you deciding to stay late because you have a lot to do, then it’s a little different.

    5. Beatrice*

      That’s normal, in my experience. The policy sets limits for appropriate spending, the budget owner can set additional limits within policy to manage to the budget.

      For example, my policy states that I must select from hotels in a particular budget category within our travel scheduling software, if there is a hotel in that category available, but I once had a manager who further specified that when traveling to X location, we must use Y hotel. There was a nicer one that was technically within the appropriate distance/budget category but was $40/night more expensive , but he wanted us to use the one he selected because it was cheapest. He also required more rental car sharing than was technically required under the policy, again to manage the budget. (We had roughly a dozen people traveling to the site for several weeks straight, and the project was already over budget, so the measures were understandable.)

      I was glad to have a generally flexible travel expense policy, and understood that individual projects might have less flexibility depending on the situation. Someone making a fuss out of it would have either appeared out of touch or would have triggered the drafting of a less generous travel policy overall.

    6. Yep*

      Do you work in my old department?! Went through the exact same scenario. When I had one foot out the door, I started expensing my late dinners. I got paid every time without a peep, because it was accounting that was approving it based upon the firm handbook. I did leave before the end of the fiscal year, so I don’t know how he reacted when/if he found out.

  5. The Photographer's Husband*

    Hi everyone. Let’s play a game called, “How Many Red Flags Can You Spot?”

    I follow a Facebook group for professionals in a certain industry – it’s fairly active and usually people posting job ads and openings at various businesses. This week, I saw just the best post ever. I’m not even in that industry anymore and thought about applying. See how many red flags you can spot in the post made below, only modified to hide the industry.

    “Hello I’m looking for a younger director for my tea kettle refurbishing project and small company. I was director but I was voted off by everyone including me and the people that quit due to me. I’m interviewing first 3 people that comment. Thank you.”

    Bonus Round – In the following comments, the OP also mentioned:
    There are 4 people on the current project
    Maybe 7-8 people in her company that she knows of ‘off the top of her head’
    The company is located ‘online in Discord’

    Super Bonus Round – When asked why specifically she was looking for a ‘younger’ director, she mentions that it’s to match a cultural fit since the company is comprised of all teenagers.

    3. LimeRoos*

      Oh this is fun!!!

      -Younger
      -Was director but voted off by everyone
      -People quit! because of her!!
      -Interview first 3 commentors
      -everything in the bonus round, it’s like a parade.
      -no words for super bonus… Like, you really want a cultural fit match with teenagers? I’m guessing this pays in Mountain Dew & Fritos or something.

      1. The Photographer's Husband*

        I was so curious about how pay worked too. I refrained from jumping into the comments on it, but there were a couple people who did express interest in applying, so maybe Mountain Dew & Fritos are compelling compensation for them?

    4. starsaphire*

      Sorry, can’t play… when I got to the word “younger,” my eyes rolled up in my head so far I couldn’t read the rest of the paragraph… ;)

      1. Quill*

        I’ve had some ridiculous drama in non-professional organizations, but I have NEVER had someone vote themselves off the board.

        1. Jedi Squirrel*

          I had a student tell me that had lost while playing tic-tac-toe against himself. I asked him if that didn’t mean that he also won, and his response was, no, he only lost.

          He was thirteen.

            1. Jedi Squirrel*

              I asked him that. He said “No, I only lost.”

              He was a great kid. I sometimes wonder what he’s done with himself.

    6. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’m going with 21 red flags. 7 but everything is tripled since this seems like a complete disaster.

    7. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Do they let girls in the treehouse or is it just boys only ’cause girls have cooties?

    10. Square Root Of Minus One*

      I can’t help hoping the first three comments to that were from the same person.
      And that they were one word each : “What”. “The”. “F***”.

    12. Lady Heather*

      I think that if you’re in the US, this is not only a hoist of red flags, but also age discrimination and illegal.

  6. MissBookworm*

    About 18 months ago the company decided to merge our department with another and my manager was put in charge of managing both teams. I was promoted to supervisor a few months later to help out, but over the last year we were thrown curveballs in the form of multiple new clients, projects, our company being acquired, etc. so it’s been difficult for my manager to find time to train me. I’ve been doing what I can to take some of the work off of her plate (mostly with answering questions and helping if coworkers are stuck), but it’s difficult when my I’m still doing 100% of the work for my old position which is a full time job in itself.

    We brought someone on temp to perm in more of an admin/support role for my manager and I this week—he actually wasn’t supposed to start until next week so we had to rush to get his workspace set up and to get the training material ready. He is picking things up really quickly which is great because now I have time to dedicate to my new duties and the training for them, but he’s not asking questions and that concerns me. He’s worked as an admin in accounting before, but not in the insurance industry and he’s not really asking questions about the type of insurance we work on or about our procedures. Maybe it’s just me (my personality or inquisitive nature), but I can’t imagine just sitting down and doing what I’m told step by step without understanding why it’s done that way or how it relates to the type of insurance. Or even what this type of insurance does and why people elect these coverages. Everyone else I’ve helped train has asked questions, even if it’s just to confirm that they understand what I’m saying.

    Is this normal? Do people not ask questions when they’re in training?

    1. Sleepy*

      I trained one person who didn’t ask any questions and it turned out badly.

      But maybe he sees himself as a temp and doesn’t want to invest too much mental energy as long as he can do the job well enough.

      1. Beehoppy*

        Some people also learn differently than others. My Boss wishes I would ask more questions also, but I prefer to listen and research first so I can ask more informed questions. Also-it’s Week One! At that point your brain is just trying to remember all the technical aspects of the job-background content would be overload.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think it could be a few things:

      1) This person is there to do a job (accounting) and he doesn’t need to know the extra details in order to successfully complete the tasks he’s in charge of. Some people don’t need or want to know the big picture in order to do their in-the-weeds kind of work.

      2) This person needs a bit of time to sit with these details before thinking about your big-picture types of questions. It may be that after looking at some numbers or lines of data for a few weeks, he’ll ask a question about a certain trend or whatnot, but those questions don’t immediately jump out to him.

      In any case, I would be concerned if he was not asking questions in training about how to do his job correctly, and very much less so concerned with him asking questions about things that may be well beyond what he needs to know in order to do his work.

      1. Kiwiii*

        I know that when I’m training, I’m usually more of the 2nd type you’re presenting. I’ll ask a couple pieces as I think about them in the conversation, but then when I’m repeating a task by myself the first or second time I’ll have stacks and stacks of questions, because that’s when I’m trying to access and implement the information properly and I realize that I even have any. Unless the trainee’s worrying you in other ways or Never asks any questions and is actually completing the work he’s supposed to be doing (some extra QA to make sure he’s catching all the pieces he should be considering, maybe, for the first month or so), chalk it up to a weird quirk.

        1. Joielle*

          Me too. I always feel like my first priority is just to learn how to do the work itself, and that’s pretty much all I have bandwidth for. Once I have sort of a grasp on that, THEN I start asking big-picture questions. Plus I know I won’t understand the nuances of the big picture until I have a solid idea of what my own job is.

          I wouldn’t be too concerned yet. But I WOULD be concerned if he’s still not asking questions after a few more weeks, or if he’s not taking any notes as you train him.

      2. MissBookworm*

        He does need to know these things. They impact how and where the funds are applied and why those funds are applied the way they are.

        I do explain as I’m training, but I would expect him to have questions clarifying what I’m saying or trying to find out why it’s done that way when it was different on another account.

        I know I need to give it more time and hopefully he’ll start asking.

        1. pleaset*

          If there are things he needs to know, he might be assuming you’d tell him those things. Which seems reasonable to me.

        2. Fikly*

          Is the training hands-on? Personally, when getting training through lessons/reading I don’t have a lot of questions, because they don’t occur to me until I’m actually trying to implement the training. Then I have lots of questions. It’s just how my brain works.

          1. MissBookworm*

            Very hands on. I usually explain how it’s done, show how it’s done on a few examples, and then have the trainee “drive” so to speak while I’m sitting with them.

            1. Alice's Rabbit*

              In which case, any questions he might have had are being answered before he gets a chance to ask them. You’re being incredibly thorough in your training, so he’s got a lot of information to process. Give him some time to digest it all and try the work on his own. Then see if he has any questions. And by “some time” I mean at least a couple days on his own after the training is over.

    3. WellRed*

      What are his duties? Is he filing and answering phones or is he processing claims (just guessing here at possible tasks). Some things really don’t require a lot of context and background and not everyone is curious about “how things work.”

      1. MissBookworm*

        Being able to do the job accurately relies on knowing this information. We do explain it while we’re training, but it feels like he should still have questions just to clarify if anything.

        1. Joielle*

          Is he taking notes? I always take a ton of notes when I’m learning something new but usually don’t ask many questions right away. Once I get back to my desk and organize my notes and thoughts, that’s when I have questions.

          1. MissBookworm*

            He has been, but I don’t know the quality of the notes. He also was given printouts of the applicable manuals—though these manuals are mostly complete there are a few things missing (our newest procedures).

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      I think it is too early to start asking those kinds of questions. He’s just trying to figure out how the copy machine works, whether his card key works etc etc etc. Asking detailed questions about the business is something I would expect he would get curious about in a few weeks or more.

    5. Laura*

      I’ve been an insurance accountant for 10 years and been a temp in other places.
      I’ve worked in a place as a temp where the direction was to complete a process and they would prefer I got the task done and not wasted time. When I was permanent at insurance accountant, the industry wasn’t explained to me until 2-3 years later when I started working on certifications. You may want to make it clear to him that you are open to questions.

    6. pally*

      Can you ask him some open-ended questions regarding the specific procedure he’s following? Your reason would be to assure yourself that you and he have the same understanding of what he’s supposed to be doing.

    7. Parenthetically*

      I’m like you in that I love to know why things are done a certain way, but a) not everyone cares; some people are very happy to just do as they’re told without needing to know the deeper reasoning, b) you hired this guy as a temp-to-perm, which means he’s coming in knowing it might not work out long-term, and c) he doesn’t even know how to work the coffee maker yet. Give him a break.

      I’d be sure to communicate to him that you’re very happy to answer questions about the nature of your work as you go through the training process, and encourage him to seek information he thinks he needs clarification on, but otherwise, train him in what he needs to know to do his job properly and let him settle in before you start worrying that he’s insufficiently curious.

    8. Fulana del Tal*

      He been there less than a week now is not time to figure out “why” . He still learning his job duties. This site has had many letters complaining about new employees that are too inquisitive or overly eager.
      And yes some people are there just to do their assigned tasks and that’s ok.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Tell him again that he needs to ask questions. He’s only been there a short bit so he may just be at the absorbing stage where he is just soaking up everything he can. As long as his work is good and he is catching on really well, I would not worry, yet.

      My boss told me something that was helpful. She said that in our arena (not insurance, btw) it’s an absolute necessity to ask questions. Not optional. You might go as far as saying his move to perm might be based in part on his ability to ask questions. My own boss set apart time each day for questions. Granted, it may have taken only five minutes on some days but the fluctuations made sense. Some days we had harder more complex things to handle and other days by sheer luck we had simpler things to handle. The time spent answering questions when up and down the with complexity of the day’s work.

      You might want to preface your talk here by saying something to the effect of, “The insurance industry is a biz where asking questions is expected and almost mandatory. There are so many details that cannot be covered in a single week or even in a single year.”

      If you don’t see an increase in questions, then start to worry. The next thing you look at is once the questions start coming you start considering the thinking that goes into asking the question.

      1. MissBookworm*

        That’s how I see it here; at least at my company you are expected to ask questions and my clients (which are also in the same industry) encourage asking questions as well.

        I’ll have to bring it up with him and see if maybe he’s just trying to process or if he just thinks he understands it more than he really does.

          1. MissBookworm*

            For the most part; I don’t expect him to do everything correctly his first week. There have just been some mistakes that could have been avoided had he just come over and asked me a question before entering the information or if he had asked for clarification when I was explaining things to him. And there were also mistakes that were unavoidable (as in we were given the wrong numbers) that even I would have done wrong.

            1. Silver Radicand*

              As you find errors, use it as a chance to explain the need for questions and what sorts of potential difficulties he could run across. Sometimes to even start asking good questions, a person needs some context on what type of thing would be “incorrect”.

            2. only acting normal*

              When you’re brand new it’s not always obvious *what* needs clarifying. You need more than a week to absorb all the nuances of a new industry! (More like 6 months, minimum.)
              Also, he may need time to digest things before he formulates clarifying questions (I describe it as “I can’t do receive and transmit at the same time”, but you can bet I’ll have some probing queries at some point).

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        ^^THIS^^
        Some places specifically DO NOT want questions. If your newcomer has had managers & co-workers who scold someone who “bothers” them, it’ll take several reminders that you DO want questions.
        I’d suggest making your one-on-one include specific time for questions: at least one.

    10. Doug Judy*

      My boss said something similar to me when I first started my new job. The thing is when you’re new to everything it’s hard to even know what to ask, because I needed a basic foundation to even form a question that was specific enough to get a helpful and useful answer. Be patient with them and if there is something you think they should be asking more about maybe probe a bit by asking “Do you have any questions about X?” That will at least get them thinking. A generic “ask questions” can be overwhelming when you’re one week in.

    11. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Two options that come to my mind:

      1) Could this person have been penalized for asking questions before? I am reminded here of a mentor I had in my entry-level job 20+ years ago, who was training me to do production support fixing database records in a client’s insurance DB. He’d give me the steps (type command X, then type command Y), but anytime I’d ask him what exactly that was doing, or why I was doing that, he’d respond with things like “just do it” or “just trust me”.
      2) Offshoot of my previous question, can he be picking up this information on his own by reviewing whatever documents he’s working with (something that I see many commenters have already suggested)?

    12. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      It might be possible that he got blasted for the questions he asked in past jobs, so not tries to figure things out without having to ask. If you ask questions, people hold what you don’t know against you. But if you don’t ask questions, it’s seen as a red flag.

  7. Sleepy*

    Can anyone recommend any books that would help an artist develop as an artist-entrepreneur?
    My brother works several remote part-time jobs so he can have enough time to pursue his music passion. He plays in a lot of bands, they perform, they occasionally tour. Not surprisingly he makes very little money at this and he’s expressed the desire to have a larger portion of his income come from music. I’d like to give him a resource to help him develop a more entrepreneurial mindset or skill set, but I haven’t found anything. Books on entrepreneurship I’ve looked at don’t seem like they would apply well to the music business.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      I don’t have any books to recommend, but the springboardforthearts (dot) org website may be of some help to him. While it’s based in the Twin Cities (MN) area, I think they may offer advice, resources, consultancy for artists beyond that region.

    2. OtterB*

      You might try The Three Jaguars by MCA Hogarth. It’s a lighthearted but still informative view in comic style at the way an artist career (she’s a writer/artist) splits into three roles: The artist, the marketer, and the business manager.

    3. Ruby314*

      “Art, Inc.” by Lisa Congdon, though I do think it’s aimed at visual artists.

      I also found one called “How To Make It in the New Music Business: Practical Tips on Building a Loyal Following and Making a Living as a Musician”.

    4. Janey-Jane*

      Also targeted towards more visual arts, but try “How to Start a Creative Business: The Jargon-Free Guide..”

    7. Lilysparrow*

      Check out Real Artists Don’t Starve by Jeff Goins. I haven’t read that one, but I’ve read others by him, and found him very levelheaded.

  8. If the shirt (doesn't) fit*

    In an email, I got told “to find out the employee uniform for the winter, check the shared drive.” I look in the share drive an under “uniforms” there is a note that says “For those who are bustier on top that don’t find into Sizes X and Y in the preferred shirt, it will be This Other Uniform Shirt. All llama groomers must match – either all wear Preferred Shirt or all wear This Other Uniform Shirt.”

    While I’m not offended, I do think that the person who wrote this could’ve easily and more tactfully written “If Preferred Shirt does not fit…” and conveyed the same message. What are your thoughts?

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      I think they should have just picked the shirt that had larger size options and made that the standard, instead of, what it sounds like, of putting the onus on the people with the, erm, chest size to enforce a uniform change for everyone.

      3. Joielle*

        Yeah, that’s weird. “Sorry everyone, as you can see, I have large boobs, so please wear a different shirt from now on.” What on earth??

    2. just a small town girl*

      woah, as someone who is vastly busier than “normal”, that would rise all my hackles. Mentioning boobs, even obliquely like that, is Not Okay. Definitely should have been something more along the lines of if this does not fit, option B.

      No mention of busts ever belongs in the workplace unless you’re the office admin from the interview yesterday.

      1. If the shirt (doesn't) fit*

        Or if you work at Victoria’s Secret or some other company that makes items related to busts. (I don’t)

    3. Amy Sly*

      Eh, as one who has problems with shirts because of bustiness and in a context where one is unlikely to be able to try the shirt on before ordering, I would prefer having the fitting problem more clearly laid out. “If Preferred Shirt does not fit, then Other Shirt” doesn’t explain why Other Shirt might be preferable. This way I know if I have trouble with bustiness, I know it’s worth trying Other Shirt. Likewise, my coworker who doesn’t have problems with Preferred Shirt bustiness but needs more hip room knows not to bother with Other Shirt because it won’t help her problem.

      1. Quinalla*

        Agreed, it is useful information, but maybe “large chested” would be a more neutral term to use? I’m just curios why the switch hasn’t been made entirely to the “other shirt” option, seems odd!

        1. If the shirt (doesn't) fit*

          Preferred Shirt is more of the “look” Company wants (think sexier/cuter) vs Other Shirt is plain/more covered up.

          1. no kind of atmosphere*

            Ah, yes, places where the primary importance of people who work there is looking sexy. That must be a great place to work.

            1. If the shirt (doesn't) fit*

              I work at this llama grooming company part time. They value knowledge on llama grooming and ability to sell/upsell llama products such as llama brushes, llama shampoo etc.

              Depending on client, sometimes we are told what specific grooming standards are required beyond the general ones such as “take a shower, show up with neat hair, etc.” I can tell you for sure that Company doesn’t only employ 6ft tall models. Some of my coworkers are short, some are tall, some are a size 0 and some are plus sized.

              1. no kind of atmosphere*

                If they actually didn’t care, their preferred look wouldn’t be the sexier option rather than the utilitarian one that covers more of the body. And getting told to groom nicely for some clients… um.

                1. valentine*

                  The real problem is the sexism. The daughter of that is: Is it the whole shift that includes an Other that has to match them or everyone at all times, do the Preferred have to change if an Other arrives to cover a shift, and what happens if everyone’s dressed Otherwise when they have to meet the special clients? If you have to be brunette or paint your nails, what happens to people who can’t? Do only Preferred people get sent on special jobs that bring them more money or better standing?

      2. If the shirt (doesn't) fit*

        It is perceived that Preferred Shirt is more fitted/tight/cut smaller whereas Other Shirt has more give.

      3. Environmental Compliance*

        ^Yeah, I’d appreciate a heads up on the actual fit characteristics of the shirts so I can properly choose (as a very narrow shouldered busty woman with also wide hips . But I think it could have been done in a better way than “those bustier up top” (can you be ‘bustier’ down below???). Like it could have been “straight cut” versus “curvy cut”.

        1. curly sue*

          Or just adding in the fitting charts. Those are incredibly helpful because they actually have numbers rather than relying on people having the same perception of what “busty” actually means.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            +1000

            Very, very much so. I’ve definitely gotten burned by a “curvy” shirt that really wasn’t. Shout out to those crappy button ups that the manufacturers have no comprehension of what burstier individuals do to them…. On the plus side, I’ve gotten very good at putting in invisible snaps & buttons.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              May I just say that your auto(IN)correct just gave a perfect description for what the shirts can do?
              Burstier indeed. I think it’s got catch phrase potential and I may throw it to the wolvesa few teenagers and see what happens.

              1. Environmental Compliance*

                Totally on purpose! I have a good friend who is also quite busty and that’s what she came up with. I can’t claim it, but it definitely fits and gives me a chuckle.

        2. Amy Sly*

          I agree that there could be better phrasing than “bustier up top,” but yeah, actually explaining the fit is important and there are only so many ways to dance around the topic. “Curvy cut” to mean “generous in the bust” wouldn’t help me much, because I’m used to seeing that term at Talbots where it means “Baby Got Back.”

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              This is where I was going… for curvy I’m going to assume bust for tops, bum for jeans/pants/skirts.

      4. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        Yeah, I’ve worn, chosen/ordered, and helped select staff uniforms before, and honestly I appreciate it if someone is frank with me as to what does and doesn’t fit and why. It helps me get uniforms that work for the most people, and it’s something I can learn from and keep in mind going forward when ordering uniforms, that certain uniforms don’t mesh well with certain body types.

    4. CatCat*

      I think “bustier” is pretty vague and I don’t think it sounds good to be talking about boobs here. Sizing just generally sucks at being vague all around, Why not just include the shirt measurements including chest measurements? Makes it so much easier to get a proper fit!

      Employees should wear Preferred Shirt if Preferred Shirt will fit. Here are Preferred Shirt sizes and measurements:
      * Size X (measurements)
      * Size Y (measurements)

      If Preferred Shirt does not fit, employees may wear This Other Uniform Shirt. Here are This Other Uniform Shirt sizes and measurements:
      * Size Z (measurements)
      * Size ZZ (measurements)

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      Couldn’t they have said, “this is the preferred shirt. Here is a size chart with bust, waist, and hip measurements for that shirt. If those measurements don’t work for you, please wear other shirt, and here’s the size chart for that one?”

      As a rather busty individual, I often find that I have issues with shirts fitting me properly. I rely heavily on size charts that give measurements for bust/waist/hip to see if a shirt is cut in a way that I can wear it, or if I have to wear a different size than I might in another shirt, or if it’s just not for me. People with generously-sized hips probably have the same problem. Size charts are helpful, not judgmental, and neutral in their discussion of people’s anatomy!

    6. Degen from Upcountry*

      Waiiiit wait wait wait wait. So A) I’m already offended by this because it’s plainly offensive and I’ve been “busty” since age 14. But B) … does this mean that if Busty McGee shows up to work on Saturday, all the other llama groomers have to wear the Big Old Lady Shirt?

        1. Degen from Upcountry*

          This is truly bananas. Why not just have everyone wear the second set of shirts? Do the smaller-chested women have to buy both shirts or is there a stock of shirts they can choose from? It gives the impression that having a “bustier” woman show up for her shift throws a wrench in the whole day from a brand perspective.

          1. If the shirt (doesn't) fit*

            Shirts are given to us to wear. Employees do not have to purchase any uniforms for llama grooming. They are also supposed to return it to our storage unit for the manager to wash/clean/reuse but honestly, we have a surplus of shirts where this doesn’t need to happen.

            There are at most (unless special circumstances dictate), 2 llama groomers per shift. You are supposed to “coordinate” outfits with each other prior to working the shift.

            1. WellRed*

              The idea of thinking, “Oh, I’m working with Betty Busty today, gotta wear shirt No. 2” is appalling to me.

              Of course, I could bust out in song “I’m too sexy for this shirt.” Or this job and its silly requirements.

            2. Avasarala*

              ??? This sounds like a problem easily solved by having everyone wear one set of shirts, which come in sizes that fit everyone. Why is this the method they chose to solve this problem?

    7. Alice's Rabbit*

      I’ve had several busty colleagues who insisted that shirts fit, when they really didn’t. So I can see how this happened, even if the wording could be better.

  9. Jabs*

    Sorry this is long, its been on my mind A LOT:

    So a week or two ago I asked for tips on working with a “junior” Teapot Painter with whom I’m having communication issues. She doesn’t report to me but I’m the sole “senior” Painter on the team.

    The problem (from my perspective) is that she focuses almost entirely on the details to the exclusion of the big picture, while I tend to do the opposite. I’ve worked with others in this role without as much difficulty, so I know its not 100% on me (I’ll happily take 50% of the blame).

    We are currently developing a new process of Teapot Painting, which means that the documentation is either non existent or not as detailed as she would like. Here is an example: I’ll write “Painted a star on the teapot,” instead of “Used the default (big) paintbrush to paint a star on the teapot. If your teapot is too small to use the big paintbrush, find a more appropriately sized paintbrush.”

    The purpose of the task (to paint a star on the teapot) is really all I’m trying to convey; it doesn’t matter which paintbrush I used, and it seems obvious to me that an experienced Teapot Painter would know they can use different brushes. We’re still experimenting and I dont know what size teapots we’re going to get anyway, so I can’t predict what size she’ll need.

    Still, I’ll show her on a big teapot, and she’ll use the big paintbrush on her small teapot and then come to me and say it didnt work. She has been here two years and has a degree in Teapot Painting, but seems resistant to exploring or deviating from what I say, even when its something I came up with on the fly and have emphasized is not to be taken as the only solution. She often says “I didnt know I was allowed to do that,” even though Im telling her (all the time) that I want her to come up with a solution herself.

    This week is busy and I was shorter with her than I should have been. (I apologized and explained that any frustration she was hearing was with myself for having not communicated well). Later, I was talking to a coworker in a different department about my struggle, and the coworker mentioned the difference between “N” (intuitive) and “S” (sensing) types, as described by the Meyers Briggs system.

    I don’t believe that people fit so neatly into categories (and hate the use of Meyers Briggs by schools and corporations) but the explanation of the difference between intuitive and sensing struck a very strong cord with me. I’m curious if others have encountered this particular idea and if its helped them? I admit I fit the “N” type to a fault; I do have a tendency to jump around, speak in metaphor, and to avoid the details in favor of the abstract…

    (Heres an article that came up on google, no guarantees of its quality but it conveys some of the idea: https://www.truity.com/blog/intuitives-guide-getting-along-sensors )

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I can’t speak to the personality types, because honestly I think a bunch of that stuff is bs. However, the real problem here is she’s not thinking critically. Yes, it’s harder to think through stuff, anticipate issues and figure out how to adapt (or know you need to ask how to adapt, depending). But it’s an important skill to have and to use. Some of it is having the experience to be able to effectively anticipate/problem solve, some of it is knowing and being comfortable that she hasn’t to do it, she can’t just copy what you do like a mindless drone.

      2. Jabs*

        Yes I agree this is the main problem, but I honestly am not sure how to “teach” critical thinking. I should be clear that its not that she doesnt try to fix it; she’ll tell me she spent an hour trying to figure out which paint would work with the brush she’s using, when the (much easier) solution would have been just to use a different brush altogether!

        In the incident this week I tried to get her to understand that she should be thinking about “why”, and she asked me if I could include that in the documentation as additional lines. I said I could try but that I can only go into so much detail for it to be a good use of my time, and I feel we sort of came to an impasse. I’m going to try and be a little more explicit and ordered in my instructions, but I dont want to be the only person on the team coming up with ideas!

        1. Quinalla*

          The point you are at in the process is not the time for detailed documentation and she needs to be more flexible. It may be that you need to be a tad more detailed too, so I wouldn’t dismiss her feedback, but I think she needs to stretch and at least meet halfway.

          Also, maybe another thing to suggest if she is struggling and can’t figure it out on a project like this, she should come to you (or maybe a peer first? that would be better if it is workable) sooner to clarify and you (or her peer) can get her unstuck faster and also hopefully start teaching her how to apply critical thinking.

          I’m also in a process right now where we are rolling out new tools for employees to use. First step is tools get tested at an alpha level, then the beta test we roll out to more people. I emphasized for the alpha it is fine to have little to no documentation, but for beta testing (which this sounds like) more direction is needed so people can get from A to B to C on complicated tools. Full blown documentation doesn’t come until testing is down and official roll-out, but there does need to be an intermediate step for tools that are complicated. Again, maybe your intermediate documentation just needs a little more to it. Maybe have her trying it out and giving feedback on the documentation be part of the process?

          Without more specific details (which I get you may not want to provide), it is hard to give more specific feedback, but hopefully that helps!

    2. Venus*

      Myers-briggs is bullshit. It bins people when they are more on a continuum (people aren’t ‘extrovert’ or ‘introvert’ only – they are on a scale, and it varies depending on their mood). Half of people will get a different result when they retest, so it isn’t reliably repeatable. It assesses people based on who they want to be, and not who they are (so it evaluates based on desire, not on actual behaviour). There are more problems, but my particular amusement is that it was developed by someone who didn’t like her daughter’s fiance, and wanted an excuse for them to break up.

      I think it is useful to realize that people have different ways of thinking about things, but applying those categories… well, I don’t think my opinion is subtle!

      1. Jabs*

        I agree entirely on the idea that these things are always a spectrum… I guess I’m looking for anything that will help me understand this coworker better, because its very hard for me wrap my head around the way she thinks. This particular dichotomy seemed to explain it in a way that hadn’t occurred to me before and so I found it useful, but I agree that putting anyone in one or the other category and leaving them there is silly (and probably does more harm than good)

        1. Minocho*

          I absolutely get that the intuitive versus sensory spectrum just put the problem into a framework that made sense to you. I would describe myself as being on “your side” of that spectrum as well – I have a friend who is very concrete and discrete, whereas I think about things within a framework I’ve invented in my head, rather than a bunch of discrete data points. There are areas where each end of the spectrum finds themself at either an advantage or disadvantage. It sounds like your colleague would do well once a procedure is established, but this portion of the process is not a very good fit for her natural mode of thinking.

    3. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

      As others have stated, it’s best not to put too much stock in Myers-Briggs; however, in Please Understand Me, the author says that S vs N is the source of more misunderstandings than any other type difference, and I believe that to be true. But it’s in the same category, I think, as the askers vs the guessers. Some people will assume that which is not said, while others will doubt that which is not said.

      Having said all that, I’m a hardcore N and I still wouldn’t use a big brush to paint a star on a small teapot, and I didn’t even go to Teapot Painting school.

    4. QCI*

      Some people just don’t have critical thinking skills, and I don’t know if you can really teach it. For you, the answer is obvious and it’s difficult to understand why others don’t get it. For them, if the answer isn’t spelled out they draw a blank and come to a complete stop. I don’t know how to fix that, but maybe others have some advice.

    5. Mrs_helm*

      You reacted by saying the problem may be “with myself for having not communicated well”. But later in thread we’re talking about critical thinking. If critical thinking is a part of the job (sounds like it is), then she is failing at that part. If you are supposed to give her “trained monkey” instructions, then it could come back on you not being specific…but strict “trained monkey” instructions are rarely going to be the case in any job.

      So, if it is really pretty obvious that you can’t use the big brush with the small teapot…and she tried it anyway…I have to wonder if she’s being obstinate for some reason. (Assuming she’s not otherwise incompetent.)

      1. Jabs*

        I guess my struggle here is what is “obvious” to me may just be more experience or my own way of thinking; how does one know when something is obvious or not? How can I know what assumptions I’m making are reasonable, vs. what a person who trained with a different Teapot program may never have been exposed to?

        She certainly has strengths that I do not have: she takes very diligent notes and when she is responsible for documentation it is comprehensive; her soft skills are much better than mine; when asked to research something she does so above and beyond what I would become impatient with; she has a positive growth mindset that I really admire, and she also has come a very very long way in terms of technical skills since she began working here.

        I think part of my struggle is that I’ve been at this job a few years and am thinking about how I might transition to a more senior role eventually, which would probably include some supervising/management. This seems, in some ways, a perfect test of that; someone in the same role I began in but with a very different way of working.

        1. designbot*

          It sounds like you’re bending over backwards trying to understand and accommodate differences. But at the end of the day, you’re a senior painter, you’ve worked successfully with other junior painters, you know what it takes to succeed in this role and you’re not seeing it in her. The reason she might think differently may not even be relevant; she’s demonstrated that despite much coaching and re-explaining, she is incapable of making decisions at the level required of her.

          1. valentine*

            She’s not right for the job. Even if it were possible to write everything down, you don’t have the time and it would soon feel farcical: “If your pen runs out of ink, use a different writing implement (not a crayon) that doesn’t tear or bleed through the writing surface. Any color easily read on said surface will do. You may borrow one from any desk. Write large enough for easy understanding and small enough that all the letters will fit on their row.”

            Maybe she can transfer, but you’re both spinning your wheels.

    6. JustMyImagination*

      Could you give her a prompt “We need to paint a star on tiny teapot. Figure out which brush you think will work best and then let’s discuss.” It’ll force her to choose an option and then defend her reasoning. It’ll also give you a chance to discuss the “Why” part of the decision which she may not be as aware of as you think she should be.

      This takes more time, but it’s a way to assess her critical thinking skills and get her to flex those muscles.

      1. Jabs*

        This is a good idea… I suppose Im worried she’ll be discouraged if what she comes up with doesn’t work. I’ll think more on this and see if I can come up with a way to do this that doesnt come off too patronizing (I’m not her boss, just her coworker with more experience and a slight title bump), and still gets our work done in time.

      2. always a nurse*

        I used to train new nurses in hospital critical care units. Critical thinking was absolutely required, but many people don’t do it intuitively. I found the best technique was similar to JustMyImagination – I’d ask the new nurses to tell me one or two events that were specific to their patient, and at least somewhat likely to occur, and then we’d work out what the appropriate nursing response to the event would be. It wasn’t enough to say “he might die!” because everybody in critical care might die…. you had to think about likely causes of death based on the patient situation, and how to identify and intervene before it got that far. Maybe she needs to look into the specifics of teapot painting…. what are the goals, and what resources are available to meet the goal of a well painted teapot, so she can start thinking about the choices she can make to meet the goal, instead of expecting that all the options will be written down for her.

    7. Argh!*

      This is more of a J vs. a P type of problem. J people are excellent cogs in the wheel. P people are excellent at piloting the wheel. Both have to learn to meet each other in the middle. If the J person won’t or can’t, it’s up to the manager to go 90-100% of the way in order to ensure quality control. It’s why managers get paid more.

      1. Spoons please*

        And this is why Myers-Briggs is mostly nonsense. I always test as a “J” but am not a cog and do really well as a manager.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I’d toss the M-B stuff to one side. It’s not that helpful here. And it is causing you to have to work harder not easier.

      People need to know how much leeway they have in their jobs. Have you gone over the points where she is supposed to decide and how to know when an instruction is set in stone?

      I have been lucky in my jobs because I would ask the boss how much authority to do I have in cases such as X or Y. And the boss answered me. Some people do not ask how much authority or discretion they have. I dunno how they survive the job, honestly. I can’t go through my day guessing. I have to know what is under my purview and when to call the boss or other authority in.

      At the same time you could try to write instructions to show where the teapot painter may use their discretion.

      There are many jobs out there that if you do not do EXACTLY what is written on paper, then there is a high price to pay for that error. It could be that she comes from such a background. Keep in mind she IS doing what you say to do. It’s more worrisome when they go off on their own tangents and bring the boss painted furnace filters or some other useless thing.

      1. Joielle*

        Yeah, this is what I was thinking too. If she seems reasonably competent other than this issue, it could be that she comes from a previous job where she had to follow instructions exactly, or a boss who would jump down her throat if she made a mistake. Especially if the latter, it takes a while and some encouragement to recover from a toxic workplace like that. I agree with your suggestion to be very explicit about when and how much discretion is appropriate.

    9. Anon for This*

      Myers-Briggs has lots of haters, but I’ve used it to solve the exact type of problem you’re having. Of course I’m generalizing, we’re all on a continuum, etc. However, as an extreme Intuitive I was very frustrated with extreme Sensor-types, just as I’m sure they were frustrated with me. They want and need to be told explicitly, step-by-step, EXACTLY what you need them to do. If she’s like some I have known, she will not suddenly be able to figure things out on her own.

    10. Batgirl*

      This doesn’t seem like a competency issue; more like she doesn’t feel allowed to take initiative. She doesnt respond with “I can’t do that”, she responds with “Can I do that?” and a request for a CYA note. This could be due to a former ‘do exactly as I say’ toxic boss or an earlier paint-by-numbers approach in her training. I’d put it in writing that not only does she have your permission to use her own initiative, especially for something like finding the right size paintbrush, but that she is expected to. If you don’t have the seniority to set her goals, get someone else to, or this will seriously hamper her. She can’t sit around waiting for scripts.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        +1 I know the Myers-Briggs and the N/S distinction very well (and don’t think it is bs) but there’s something else at work here. Yes, maybe she likes to ask about details of everything and “what if it isn’t exactly like in the instructions?” etc (as an ENTP I have had this frustration with **SJ types so many times) but from what you’ve written here it seems like she has been burned in the past by “not following instructions”, or “using initiative” rather than asking a supervisor what she should do, or such like… it is very hard to break out of the mindset of “I have to seek approval for everything I do from this person who is ‘above’ me in the hierarchy” and can become a defence mechanism in itself.

        Have you made it explicit that “the goal we need to accomplish here is to have a star painted on the teapot that takes up approx 25% of its width. How you do that is up to you, as long as you achieve the stated result” ?

  10. Susan K*

    I’ve noticed that people seem to be getting spoiled by the convenience of modern technology, and I am curious if others have experienced the same thing.  I’m the administrator for a couple of databases in my department (not my main job, by the way — a peripheral duty on top of my main job), and I’ve become the unofficial IT person for the department.  This is a huge company with an official, 24/7 IT help desk, but people in my department frequently come to me for computer help, whether or not they’re related to my databases, because I’m pretty good at learning software tips and tricks and I can often tell people the easiest way to do things in various applications.  I’m also pretty good with Excel and I have set up numerous spreadsheets for individuals and groups in the department.
    Lately, I feel as though people have become increasingly demanding with what they expect software to do for them, and they’re unwilling to do the smallest manual actions because they want it all to be automatic.  When I started working here, we tracked our tasks on a hard copy printout.  Now, our database is set up to automatically generate a list of tasks that need to be done (which can be easily filtered and sorted) and automatically check items off of the list as they are completed.  It’s so much better and easier than the hard copies, and yet most people won’t even look at the list because it takes two whole clicks to open it.  They are missing things that are on the list because they try to complete the work from memory and forget things.

    I also set up several custom reports in the database.  For most of them, the only user action required is to select the report from a drop-down list and click Run, but again, this is too hard.  People have seriously complained that they have to “scroll through a list of like a dozen reports and figure out which one to choose and it’s so confusing!”  (The reports are very unambiguously named, e.g., “Monthly TPS Report Data.”)  People who have asked me to set up reports never run them because it’s too much work to open the program and go to the report screen.  “But can’t you just make it e-mail the report to me every day?”  Nope, I can’t.
    A manager in my department asked me to set up a fairly complex spreadsheet that uses data from one of my databases but is beyond the capabilities of the database’s reporting functions.  I poured hours of work into setting it up so that all he has to do is run a report in the database and export it to an Excel file in a specific location.  The spreadsheet does all the rest of the work (I even set up a macro to grab the most recent data upon opening), and if he wants to save the charts to a PDF, all he has to do is click a button.  I showed him how to do this and also typed instructions in the spreadsheet.  Guess what?  He hasn’t run the report once.  I don’t think he’s even opened the spreadsheet.  I’ve been running it periodically, mainly to make sure it’s working correctly, and I’m saving the charts to a PDF weekly and sending it by e-mail, because that’s the only way people are willing to use this information — if it is “automatically” delivered to their e-mail (they view it as “automatic” but it is really me manually doing the work and sending it to them).

    1. Silvercat*

      I’m not sure it’s tech making them lazy – they’re probably just lazy. I’ve gotten the same attitude in low-tech situations.

    2. Adlib*

      I feel you. I usually just sigh and say “users, man” to myself when stuff like this happens. If people can’t be bothered to do 2 steps to get what they want, then it’s on them. I know the frustration of going through all the work to set up automatic reports only to have people not even use them. Part of the issue is that most people don’t understand limitations of software/databases or how they work at all. They think that because some things are automated, that everything should be. I’ve been working in systems/software for a few years now, and that’s just the way it is. I hate telling people “no, it’s not possible”, too, but I think it’s just part of the territory.

      You are doing way more than I would be though. I would not be running a report and then emailing a PDF out to people when they’ve been shown how to get the information themselves. That usually teaches people learned helplessness. Do you know if they are even looking at the report when you send it? Plus, what happens if you get hit by a bus?

      I would suggest posting to your intranet or SharePoint helpful tips occasionally on how to do things, but that also relies on people reading them…

      1. Susan K*

        In this particular case, they are looking at the PDF because I send it right before the meeting in which it’s discussed and the manager who asked for it puts it up on the screen in the conference room. I’m pretty sure that if I got hit by a bus, he would say, “Well, Susan didn’t send me the PDF so I guess we’ll skip that today.” The problem is that some of these things affect my work, so I have a vested interest in the information being distributed and used even beyond the time I put into setting it up. For example, the task list includes work that I need another team to complete, so I need them to look at the list and do the work on the list.

        I’ve started to get very concerned about the “hit by a bus” scenario because I’m afraid there are too many things that people think are automatic but are really only happening because I am doing them. Each individual thing is not a big deal, but if I’m out of commission for a couple of weeks, a lot of things will not get done. Maybe if it came to that, they would realize they have to do these things themselves, but I don’t know.

        I almost always write instructions for how to do these things, but I doubt anybody reads them. If it is more than one step, it’s too complicated and confusing and nobody knows how to do it but Susan! I also usually give a live demo and/or training sessions, but people forget if they’re not doing it on a regular basis.

          1. TooTiredToThink*

            I was just legit going to suggest this too. Make a list of everything someone (you) has to do; make sure your manager and whoever would cover for you; and then take a week off.

    3. calonkat*

      If you’d added in some comments about being asked to learn new programming languages and write successful programs in them withing a couple of days, I’d be texting my daughter to ask why she didn’t tell me she finally started reading this blog.
      She’s also had people complain that it’s too hard to open the reports from their email and read them, so there’s that step you can look forward to as well.
      I manage one main program, with a relatively small number of users, and spend my time explaining the same things over and over and begging people to make sure their data is correct. They can run reports that use English words to explain what problems exist, yet that action is beyond some of them. So I run the reports, and send them emails explaining what is wrong with their data, then they don’t fix it or worry about it until it’s too late.
      So you’ll never make everyone happy.

      1. Susan K*

        Kind of embarrassed to admit this, but I have gotten to that stage where it’s too hard for people to open the reports (the ones I set up at their request) from their e-mail (which I send because it’s too hard for them to open the program and run the reports)… So on some reports, I have started to include a summary in the body of the e-mail in case they are too lazy to open the attachment.

        1. Adlib*

          Yeah, as QCI and TooTiredToThink said, definitely take a vacation. It’s probably worth a conversation with your boss to go through a “hit by a bus” scenario. Maybe document all the time that this takes for you to do when the end user could do it faster themselves? They would definitely be up the creek without you! It sounds like this stuff may even take up so much time you don’t have the bandwidth to take on more strategic or big picture projects.

        2. Ama*

          I would talk to your boss about the amount of hand-holding you are having to do and ask if there are places where it would be okay to shift the onus back to your coworkers — i.e. make it clear at a staff meeting that if people don’t read the attachments that’s their fault if they miss something important. They are going to keep pushing that boundary until the point at which you make it clear you won’t be doing their work for them any more.

          I work with a volunteer board that is really bad about missing info (they are all experts in the subject area we work in and receive a ton of email so I get it to a certain extent, but for some of them it feels like if we don’t come to their office and put the meeting on the calendar for them it’s somehow our fault for not telling them) and the only thing that has helped is I have my boss’s total agreement about where exactly the line is between my responsibility to keep them in the loop and their responsibility to figure out how to get the info they need like the experienced professionals they are. (I.e., you need us to cc your assistant on everything? fine. Your assistant is not very good at their job and doesn’t put stuff on your calendar without an email that says “Jane, please put this on Dr. Owen’s calendar”? We’re not taking on responsibility for managing someone who does not work here – you need to do that yourself.)

        3. Mockingjay*

          We use a task workflow system. I’ve used these systems for over a decade so I have become the “expert” by default on my team. This particular system is a very simplistic model. Click to open new task form, type title and description, pick name and due date from the preset lists, and save. Off it goes via email to the designated team member.

          Where it dies. They won’t read it; they won’t update it with progress or assign it to the next person. Our industry is IT and comms systems, so I know these people can figure out a damn server workflow.

          Nope. Instead, I average 2 calls and 5 – 10 emails per day, asking me the status of the task or the product associated with it. “I don’t know. It’s your task.” “How come the changes I put in the email didn’t get implemented?” “You didn’t put it in the workflow.” “Can you put it in?” “No, this isn’t my responsibility. I have my own work to do.”

          I’ve stopped answering the emails and I duck the calls. I don’t run the system; I just use it like we’re supposed to. It’s mandatory across the program; it’s only this team that refuses to use it. They’ve been trained on it; wikis and other info are readily available. We have a large IT staff who can help. They don’t care. They want me as a personal recording secretary, tracking all the team’s work. I have a completely different job.

          Fortunately my supervisor has my back (I am assigned to this project team, but report to her) in keeping to my paid role, but it is so tiring to keep having to deal with this kind of thing. I just want to focus on my job, which I enjoy when I am left alone to concentrate on it.

    4. Mouse*

      One of my coworkers refers to that as things happening “automagically.” I have a magic wand on my desk for the same reason – it’s pink and sparkly and lights up and plays a trill.

      I spend a lot of time broken-recording, pointing people back to where information is located and walking them through how to use the tools. Takes longer than just doing it myself sometimes, but eventually it gets the point across.

      Some of it at least seems not to be laziness but a difference in mindset or ways of thinking — it seems perfectly logical and obvious to me that if you want a report to do X, you need to be able to define specifically what rules/filters/etc. will constitute X, but saying that gets me a lot of deer-in-the-headlights looks. People generally will get the idea with some prompting and conversation. Another part is just unfamiliarity, as people here juggle a lot of different tasks, and by the time they come back to one in particular, they need a refresher on how that one works.

      2. Sharkey*

        My former (now retired) excellent boss used to have one of those magic wands. She said that when necessary, it could also double as a battering ram! :)

      4. Formerly in HR*

        I say that people want Siri- delivery. I.e. just talk out loud and someone reads their mind and pops something up on their screen/ desk etc. No efforts, no clicking, no wait. Everything has to be real time, without providing all the information / parameters, without waiting / filtering/ filling in anything.
        I get users asking me to send them reports, even though they have access to run those themselves. I recently discovered that I can make the reports to run as a backlog and get the results sent to an email address other than mine. So if they want the report I just open it, click on filters ( or not, if I didn’t get any details), enter their email address, click two more buttons and the report is sent to them. I don’t check and format the results for them anymore.

    5. Pennalynn Lott*

      My business partner was so frustrated that he had to click two things — literally, just two things! that are even in the same micro-geographic area of the screen! — to send emails to customers from within our accounting software that he paid a consultant $1500 to [basically] write a macro that will do it with one click.

      I don’t have a stop-watch with the precision to time how quickly the two clicks can be made, but it’s *max* one second. So he paid $1500 to save half a second 3-4 times per day, four days a week (he only does computer-related stuff four days a week). So that’s 8 seconds per week; 416 seconds per year; at $3.61 per second; which is $12,966/hour.

      This was five years ago and I’m *still* mad as a hornet about him wasting that money.

    6. Jedi Squirrel*

      Stop doing their work for them.

      Of course, they’re not going to run the report and save the PDF. You’re doing that for them. Stop right now.

      Address this as “Okay, I’ve made a few tweaks, so I want to run through this with you to make sure you know how to use it.” (It doesn’t matter whether or not you’ve tweaked the report—you’re tweaking how you’re handling things.) And then stand behind them as you instruct them which thing to click on, which menu to select, etc. Once they’ve run through it once or twice and you’re confident they understand it, walk away. If they have problems in future, don’t run it yourself. Just stand behind them and tell them where to click, etc. They will never learn if they don’t do it themselves.

      I taught computer skills to adult learners for years, and the number rule was “never take command of the mouse.” Just guide the student through all the necessary steps.

    7. Mrs_helm*

      Welcome to IT .
      (a) Make sure management knows you are spending time doing people’s clicks for them. If they are ok with that…ok? Get paid $xx for $x work?
      (b) Can the long list of reports be broken into a few shorter lists? Perhaps by department or topic? Does the software allow a special list by role, or a special page by person or something?
      (c) Can you get additional training or additional software that would allow the reports to be scheduled? And if not, can you use that to push back on people when they ask about that?

      1. Susan K*

        Oh man, if only I could get paid extra for doing other people’s work! Haha.

        Unfortunately, the software doesn’t have the capability of making multiple lists. It does show only the reports for our site and not the other company locations that use the software, but there is no custom filtering available beyond that.

        The new version of the software has some additional capabilities for automating processes, and I’ve been waiting for a year and a half for IT to install the new version. I actually went through a whole day of testing the new version last year, but before IT was ready to install it, a newer version was released, so I had to redo all of the testing for that version, which they still haven’t installed. Still, there is some stuff that simply cannot be completely automated, and that is why we all have jobs.

    8. lasslisa*

      In the physical world also, no process works without enforcement. If you want the assembly line workers to always move the kanban card along with the material, there has to be someone on the receiving end saying “hey, where’s my kanban card?”

      I’ve worked with a lot of automatically generated reports, and it seems like people think the report is going to look at itself for them. If it’s really important to catch things that you can’t just program in, you need a recurring meeting or a habit of checking in in person, where you go and you ask them what the latest numbers are or what they think of the latest report, just to force someone to actually look at it.

      In situations like manufacturing that call for continuous/advanced monitoring, you do usually want to have some control limits programmed in, but those won’t tell you about trends or sudden jumps unless you get real SPC software. And in that case someone still needs to look at it to determine whether it’s a false alarm. Depending on your application you might consider looking in to software solutions that can do more for you, though.

      1. Susan K*

        So true… There are some things that I technically could automate, but I won’t, because I know if I did, nobody would ever look at them. A lot of people here can’t seem to understand that the software doesn’t actually do the work. The software can generate a list of tasks that need to be done, but not do the tasks. The software can generate a report, but not take action based on what the report indicates. We do have limits and alerts programmed into the software, but again, those are only effective if people actually look at them and do something.

    9. NACSACJACK*

      Because thats the way the world is going, tilting. The technology is available to automatically run the reports and send it to people. I’ve seen it done. I’ve also been the one that was saying, “That can’t be done” and gets blown off the sidewalk by the whoosh of it getting done. As an developer of technology, I’ve seen users get less and less compute-literate. They get that way because as we make technology easier to use, people who are less computer-savvy are being hired to do the job. People used to need to look up codes to enter an item or condition into the screen. Now its all in the dropdown. No need to crack the manual. Another example is designing websites. A person used to need to know HTML , CSS and Javascript. Now they just point, click and whoosh, their website is published for them. Yet, in all of this making technology easier to use, someone has to program it to do that.

    10. Adlib*

      I realize you didn’t really ask for advice here, Susan, but we all empathize and hope you can make the situation better if you want! Now that it’s Friday, go have a drink (or not, as you wish)!

    11. LunaLena*

      Nah, I completely agree that technology is spoiling people. I say this because I used to work in promotional products, so a big part of my job was receiving art files from clients, fixing up the artwork and making a proof, and then sending it back to them for approval. I was much younger than the majority of our clients (many of who had been in the industry almost as long as I’d been alive), but I am old enough to remember the days before reliable Internet, when files had to be snail-mailed via CD or *gasp* diskettes. Instead of taking days or weeks to send out a proof from the time the order arrived on my desk, I usually had it ready within a couple of hours. But even that wasn’t fast enough for some clients: it wasn’t unusual for me to get an email demanding to know when they’d get their proof within half an hour of them emailing me the art file. Sometimes I’d get an email followed by a phone call within five minutes, and I would just want to say “remember the days before we could send files instantaneously? How did you manage back then?”

      1. presently demo*

        Do you find that the files come in with mistakes? I work in publishing and my boss likes to reminisce about the days when files came in perfectly on a disk; there wasn’t the option to send it back 5 times for revisions.

    12. Raia*

      I see this daily at work even with the ability to send automated emails. As long as my ducks are in a row and the project manager signs off that the automation is completed, I just move on to the next thing. It is not my job to babysit. I commiserate with you though.

  11. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

    I need to vent. There are 27 work days left in the year. My boss is on vacation for 17 of them. Usually I would be really excited about this, but he just spent an hour talking at me about things that aren’t due until February and demanded that I finish them all today (even though they’re relatively low-priority) because he seems to think that when he’s gone, we don’t do anything.

    1. Rayray*

      Bosses like that… Ugh!

      They’re the ones too that see someone sitting back to catch their breath or take a phone call, and assume they’re a no good slacker, even though they spend time on personal matters too.

    2. CMart*

      If… if you finish all of your work through February by today, isn’t that guaranteeing that you won’t do anything while he’s gone? As all the work will be done?

      1. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

        Not all of my work through February, just a couple things related to his pet projects. I’ll still have plenty to do, it just really effed with my project management timelines.

  12. Pam Beesly*

    I posted on here a month or so ago about a coworker coming to me in tears, saying that her husband is abusing her. She was worried for her safety, and told me the abuse had been going on for over a year. She had filed a restraining order and filed for divorce.

    Now, she has told me that she’s trying to “work things out with him”. He has been sending her flowers/gifts at the office on a weekly basi. Should I just stay out of it? I don’t know her super well on a personal level, but I was extremely worried about her when she first came to me. Just seems like he may be manipulating her.

    Again, I know I’m making some assumptions, but her emotions were raw when she told me about the abuse. He didn’t seem like the kind of person she shoudl be “working things out with.”

    1. Dagny*

      There’s a line between getting too involved and warning her.

      Abusers have a cycle of abuse, then when the person is just about to break, it’s all sweetness and flowers and apologies. This makes good, forgiving people feel like they are in the wrong if they don’t try to work things out.

      I would explain this to her, and tel her that she’s under no obligation to put up with this again – and that once he gets her back, the abuse will just start all over again. In a few months, she will be right back where she was a month ago.

    2. WellRed*

      Stay out of it. Of course he’s manipulating her; that’s what abusers do. Isn’t there some stat about how it take like, six tries on average to finally leave your abuser?

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Stay out of it. And google cycles of abuse. This is a well known thing unfortunately. She may swing back and forth for a while (years even) before actually getting out.

    4. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

      The next time she brings it up, tell her about resources for emotional support, such as the National Domestic Violence Hotline (or maybe one without Violence in its title – suggestions anyone?). Tell her you’re not suggesting it because you want them to talk her out of reconciliation, but that you want her to have all the support she can get, even if you’re not able to be the one to give it. I know you can’t make her use those resources…it will be up to her to call or not, but at least you can know you tried without overstepping.

      1. merp*

        I was thinking this too, make sure she’s got the phone number just in case she needs it, and honestly, I think you could call yourself if she came to you again in the future with questions – they might be able to help you help her.

    5. NB*

      I’ve been listening to a podcast Real Crime Profile in which stalking expert Laura Richards has made some observations that could be at play here. First, it takes most domestic abuse victims many attempts to leave the abuser. It’s very difficult to get away. Also, leaving is the most dangerous time for the victim. As Richards has said, individual victims know better than anyone what puts them at risk. I guess you can’t push her to leave, but make it clear that you’re there to help when she does. Maybe be ready with information regarding support services.

      It must be so hard to watch this drama unfold.

    6. Penny*

      This kind of thing is incredibly common in abusive relationships. I don’t remember the numbers, but have seen info out there about how many times an abused partner returns or decides to reconcile before finally leaving. It can be a lot. I know someone in a similar situation right now, and it really sucks to feel like the helpless friend. Unfortunately, you can’t force someone to do what you think they need to do for their own safety. I think the best you can do is make sure they have the resources they need, and make sure they know you are there for them if/when shit hits the fan again. Unless there is an imminent danger to their life — something tangible that law enforcement could do something about — I don’t think that pushing is usually productive with stuff like this. :-(

    7. AnonEMoose*

      Domestic abuse situations are so complex and hard to deal with. Unfortunately, the victim often does go back the abuser after leaving, often more than once.

      Good for you for wanting to support her, but know there may be a long and difficult road ahead. From a workplace perspective, you may want to consider workplace safety or what to do if he shows up looking for her there.

      It might help to call and talk to someone at a hotline or shelter for domestic abuse victims. They may have good tips on how to support her, and how to protect the workplace if things turn bad.

      1. Jenny*

        My sister in law has bounced from one abuser to another for years. Husband and I tried warning her against her first husband, repeatedly and it did not work at all.

        Stay alert, be supportive as you can (but prioritizing your own safety), but speaking up could very easily make her quit (or husband force her to quit).

    8. Reba*

      That’s so difficult. I’m sure people said this last time you posted, too, but look for a guest post Alison published from a commenter named Marie who has experienced this. She wrote all about what kind of workplace support would be helpful for a person in that situation.

      I don’t think the answer is “stay out of it,” but I do think you can’t argue with her about what’s going on. Just try to remain a friend and safe person to talk to (unless/until your own boundaries are crossed).

    9. londonedit*

      It’s a horrible situation to be in, and you’re right to be worried. Unfortunately, this sounds like the pattern many abusive relationships fall into – the abused party manages to get themselves out of the relationship, only for the abuser to persuade them to come back with grand promises, romantic gestures and all the appearances of having ‘mended their ways’. Sadly it’s often the beginning of another cycle of abuse, and sadly often people who have been in abusive relationships have their sense of perspective so skewed by their abuser (they’re often made to believe that the abuser’s bad behaviour is their fault, for example – they just need to ‘do better’ and the relationship will always be as wonderful as it is ‘during the good times’) and this is what makes it so hard for people to get out permanently.

      I think you can only really be there for her to support her if she needs it – make sure she knows this, but try not to pass any judgement on her decision to ‘try to work things out’. You might be able to see all the red flags a mile away, but again, abusers often tell their victims things like ‘everyone is against me’, ‘no one understands us’, ‘no one wants us to be happy’, so she might see any judgement of her situation as evidence that her abusive partner is right. You might want to leave some information about local/national domestic abuse charities in a neutral, accessible place.

      1. Natalie*

        sadly often people who have been in abusive relationships have their sense of perspective so skewed by their abuser

        It’s also worth noting that many abused people still genuinely love their partners. Typically they don’t *want* to leave, they just want the abuse to stop. (Whether that’s safe, realistic or even possible is a whole different topic entirely.) One of the really hard parts of doing DV work is accepting that and working with people where they’re at rather than where you think they’ll end up eventually.

        Pam Beesly and anyone else that finds themselves in this position, remember that you can call a hotline for support, too. We got calls like that all the time, it really is okay.

    10. mananana*

      This is not unusual — on average it takes victims of IPV 7 tries to actually leave. I suggest chatting with a consultant at the DV Hotline; they’ll provide resources and suggestions. Google “the hotline . org” or call them at 1-800-799-7233

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Absolutely call the hotline. You need to know what to do and what not to do. It’s too easy to have good intentions and end up making things worse. You’re in a tough spot. I hope you get help with this.

    11. QCI*

      I would simply say something like “You left him once for a reason, just because he’s being nice now doesn’t mean he wont go back to being the guy you were trying to run away from”
      After that it’s on her.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Eh, one time I told someone their person was an abuser. That alone was enough to get this person to stop telling me about the latest episode. I knew for a fact that she was working with more than one counselor. She had help, so she just had to process things.

        It’s been about 20 years, I don’t think she has left him yet. Sometimes we can’t help no matter how badly we want to help.

    12. Argh!*

      I would consult with the police or a security agency. If she has a restraining order against him, and then drops it, you may want to find a way to keep him away from the workplace despite them ‘working it out.’ If he’s a typical abuser, after the current love-bombing, he’ll revert to type after she takes him back.

    13. Mama Bear*

      It often takes people a very long time to leave an abuser. In some cases I just remind someone that there’s an EAP service available if they need help, and stay out of the day to day details. I have a friend in a similar boat but I can’t force them to leave. I just tell them we have a spare room if they ever decide they need it. Sometimes what is most helpful is just being a friend – abusers like to demean and isolate their victims.

    14. Mid*

      From personal experience: leaving is hard. Really hard. And even when you know you want to leave and shouldn’t go back, most people end up going back several times.

      Stay out of it, but also keep the relationship open between you and coworker. Don’t try to fix it for her, even when it’s painfully obvious that she should be doing XYZ. Don’t take it personally when she makes The Wrong Choice again. But also don’t give up on her.

    16. Perbie*

      IF they ask, i think it’s reasonable to say that they deserve better, and the husband had their chance and showed who they are. Suggest they go to a support group or therapist to explore further. If they have already made up their mind you can’t change it, but it’s nice if you can offer to be a friend if they need it. Do set up boundaries for yourself though not to get too invested in other people’s problems you can’t control.

    17. Salymander*

      If you tell her that he is just manipulating her (because he almost certainly is) she will likely just feel really uncomfortable and disloyal and stop talking to you about it at all. Then, when her husband starts abusing her again, she will not feel like she can go to you for help. Being isolated makes her much more vulnerable. I know this from bitter, painful experience.

      Maybe instead you could say that you just want her to be safe and happy, but that you trust her to make her own choices for her own life. Then mention that you are there for her, and she can feel ok coming to you if anything changes for the worse.

  13. Seifer*

    What work would you do if money was no object? I’d totally be a woodworker instead of an engineer. What’s your passion project?

    1. workzone*

      I’ve always wanted to do window displays for Anthropologie. Combines my love of art and craft and business.

      1. Laura*

        Oooh! This sounds awesome!

        If you’re on instagram, check out @anne_made. She works for Altar’d State, and their Christmas display is a bunch of bells made from upside down planters. She shows the design process and everything! Super cool!

      2. Seifer*

        I read an article about someone that did that! I think it might’ve even been on Anthropologie’s site. Whoever it was, she LOVED it. I think she had her block of stores and just would cycle through them, designing and then executing.

      1. Seifer*

        I can’t do that. I would BECOME the pet rescue, ha!
        (“Look at this babyyyyy oh he needs to come home with me, STAT.”)

          1. Seifer*

            Hey, it’s okay! Money is no object in this fantasy, so just, you know, make a bigger house that has aaaall the room for pets.

    4. Wearing Many Hats*

      Fiber artist–I’d open a little shop of my work and found objects in the front of my studio.

    5. Swiper*

      Honestly, dishwasher. It was the best job I ever had. No one really bothers you, there’s no dress code, and at the end of the day you’re done. If the job does suck, you can literally just walk out and get a job next door with no professional repercussions at all. I miss those days.

      1. Seifer*

        We had a guy that would come in after his regular job and be a dishwasher. He wouldn’t tell us what he did, just that it was hella stressful and he wore suits before getting changed for dishwashing. He told me once that it was nice to get off work, come to the steakhouse and just wash dishes for like eight hours. Low stress, mindless detox activity, and he could listen to audiobooks or whatever he wanted. I thought he was weird (I was like, seventeen, ha!) but as I get older I’m like. Dude… that’s what I want… he knew what was up.

      2. Parenthetically*

        My lower back probably wouldn’t handle it, but yeah there’s something deeply satisfying about a job like that.

    7. Jabs*

      I’m lucky enough to be working a passion-adjacent job, but I would love it if people would pay me to just create my own stuff instead of having to create it for others/in a subject matter I like fine but isnt what I would do if given the choice. I sometimes wonder if it would have been easier not to try and muddle my passion and my work together, since it leaves me less energy to work on personal projects.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yeah this is basically mine too — a tour guide/re-enactor at a living museum kind of place, where I wear modern clothes one day and lead school groups around, and the next day put on a mob-cap and stays and a Brunswick and stand next to the hearth demonstrating open-fire cooking, or whatever.

    10. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I’d go back to working morning stock at a store. Physically active, before the store opened so it was quiet and I got left alone to do my stuff, and it fulfilled the urge to make everything look very neat and tidy.

    11. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      Probably what I am doing now, but I’d be able to not care about being paid and expand my services within the community. I really like my job and just wish I could do more of it

    12. ThatGirl*

      Photographer. Bonus points for working in a darkroom developing and printing b&w photos on film. I studied it a lot on and off from age 10-22 and even though I’m sure I’ve forgotten most of what I knew about developing, I kinda miss it.

      1. Xandra*

        Combined? I like the idea of bunnies hopping down the aisles of a yarn store… bunnies nesting in baskets of yarn.

        1. Gidget*

          100% Combined. It would be totally impractical because well the bunnies would absolutely eat the yarn, but I feel if there can be bunny yoga there can certainly be bunny yarn stores. :p

    14. MissBookworm*

      An author. I’ve always loved writing (ever since I learned) and love to read, so it always seemed perfect.

      1. Belle of the Midwest*

        Oh, yes, me too. and help provide some of the kangaroo care if their parents are not able to.

    18. Foreign Octopus*

      I’d study languages and write novels. That’s all I want to do because it sounds so peaceful.

      1. Seifer*

        Ohhhh. We went to this great distillery in Nashville and the people that were the tour guides seemed to really love what they did. It sounds so fun!

      2. Belle of the Midwest*

        I’m originally from just south of the Bourbon Trail (not far from where Maker’s Mark is produced). The Bourbon Belt is God’s country.

    20. Environmental Compliance*

      Hobby farm with sheeps and alpacas that I shear for wool, cleaning & spinning & dyeing my own yarns for sale. With a greenhouse for all my houseplant propagation needs.

      1. Seifer*

        I TOTALLY want to do that too! Though I’d probably just have goats and chickens. And then have my big woodshop. But yes to the greenhouse! My plant babes need so much sun.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          It’s actually our legitimate retirement plan. 50ish acres, mostly wooded, prefer with a water feature (wetlands + river would be best), clear out a small chunk big enough for a sustainable garden for us, a nice sized greenhouse for my other plant shenanigans, and then sheep (those Valais sheep in particular!), alpaca, a llama for giggles, ducks, chickens, a donkey and/or mule, my gelding, and a peacock or two. Maybe a couple of goats, too.

          (Hubs does not approve of the peacock because they make horrible noises, but I really want one that we can have as the unofficial Farm Guardian because then I can call it our Attack C*ck because I am a very immature person and easily entertained with stupid things).

          1. Seifer*

            I’m like seriously heart eyes right now. I’d love to have farm birds like ducks and chickens (not interested in domesticated birds like parakeets but I 1000% will cuddle a chicken) and ohhhh I forgot about alpacas! I played this video game called Harvest Moon growing up (let’s be real, I still play it) and I have always, always wanted to have a real life hobby farm because of it.

            (RE: AttackCock. Yes, a thousand times yes! I am cackling on the inside right now.)

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              Harvest Moon is adorable!! I never was into games as a kid (I played Metroid, though, loved that game) and I played/play Animal Crossing, but not a lot others. I enjoy watching Stardew Valley!

              I worked at a horse rescue growing up. Ended up being more of a menagerie with all the other rescues though, lol.

              1. MsChaos*

                My two kids are 26 and 21 and they still play Harvest Moon. They’re into gaming and anime and stuff (even the older who’s in grad school), and I’ve always loved making things for their cosplays (ask me about my No-Face costume, LOL), so I’d probably do that. In fact, I plan on doing that when I retire. It’ll be boatloads of fun and I’ll make a little extra money, too, although I’ll probably spend it on traveling around to cons, which is the point!

      1. Seifer*

        YES. That’s my boyfriend’s passion project. He loves growing stuff via hydroponics but there’s not enough room for him to do it on the scale that he wants to. I love plants and building things and would totally build the greenhouse and help him build the set up.

    25. Potato Girl*

      I’d stay on top of all the life work that I never have the brainspace to manage. Keeping everything clean and organized so I wouldn’t feel so chaotic all the time and I’d actually be able to find things. Actually doing or making things myself instead of buying everything. Cooking healthy meals with more variety in my diet instead of rotating the same six or seven employment-friendly dinners. And once I’d finally caught up after a couple of months I’d start fostering cats/kittens.

    26. Amy Sly*

      Own a comfort shoe/orthotic store. When I worked comfort shoe sales, I loved quite a lot about the job — meeting people, helping them with their problems, seeing all the new shoes, even stocking the back to have lovely organized shelves — and much of what I didn’t like came from not having authority to fire bad employees or bad customers.

        1. Amy Sly*

          Lots!

          In general terms, you needs shoes that are the correct length, width, depth, and proportional such that the ball of the foot is in the widest part of the shoe. Get yourself measured — feet do change shape and size as gravity takes its toll — but remember that size is just a number. Get what fits. You’re not Cinderella and happiness isn’t conditioned on being a size 6. You’ll want shoes that have a firm shank (no, not that kind) to keep them from bending anywhere but at the ball of the foot. You’ll also do best with shoes that have a small heel-to-toe drop of half an inch or so, not completely flat. Get rid of any shoes where your foot pushes out over the sole or where the sole has worn down enough that the shoes lean to one side when you’re not in them.

          1. Amy Sly*

            For arch support, I’d have to see your feet/shoes to recommend the best specific model, but the short version is that you want to fill in any empty spaces where your foot isn’t touching the insole and increase the support near areas where you find that your foot digs through the insole. Arch supports should be like beds: soft enough to adjust to you, but firm enough to give you support; as such, I find cork based orthotics like Aetrex, Abeo, and Birkenstock better than plastic ones (Goodfeet) or gel (Dr Scholls).

            1. Amy Sly*

              As for specific brands, these all have good arch support built in: Abeo, Aetrex, Dansko, Finn Comfort, Think!, Mephisto, Kumfs, Birkenstock (though they tend to be very flat which may not be the most comfortable). For good fitting shoes that may need more support, I’m a big fan of Ecco, New Balance, and NB’s non-athletic lines Aravon for women and Dunham for men. (Hubby’s best fit is 13 6E; he doesn’t have a lot of options!)

    27. The Cosmic Avenger*

      If money was no object, I’d retire! :D

      No, really, I’d dabble in some things, but I would love to completely set my own schedule, and you can’t always do that even as a freelancer, once you take on a project or client. I might like to go back to school to study law, or bioethics, though. Maybe start a TV/movie blog, as in critiquing movies & TV shows.

    28. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      My husband and I would run our own cafe, and he would roast all the coffee. We already have a name picked out :)

    29. Admin of Sys*

      Barista. I used to think I wanted to run a coffee shop, but I really don’t, I just want to make espresso and latte art and give caffeine to people.

      1. Bee*

        I’d be a barista as well. I worked in a coffee shop all through college and it was the best job i’ve ever had. Waking up early, preparing all the coffees and tea, stocking the pastry case, the morning broken up into sets of rushes in between classes. It was the best!

    31. Amy*

      I’d run a vintage bookshop and do some photography on the side. Alas, I’m a lawyer until we’re out of debt and out of kids.

    36. ursula*

      Full-time climate activism, independent game design, or beekeeping. Or developing a holistic legal & social services co-op. Or developing a colocation plan for rural hubs that house multiple overlapping community services under one roof. My dreams are humble. (SN: I’m replaying ff8 right now, hi.)

    38. Goldfinch*

      I’d run a combination pet store/animal rescue in which the customer is NOT always right.

      No, you can’t adopt a husky because direwolves gave you a boner. No, you can’t start fishkeeping by mindlessly purchasing clownfish because your toddler is screaming for Nemo.

      But also, no, I won’t tolerate rescue workers who refuse to adopt out to anyone except wealthy DINKs with stay-at-home jobs. Regular humans in apartments can provide loving homes, too.

      I would not do a robust business, but I would attract responsible pet owners who care about their animals.

      1. Gidget*

        Here here! This is one thing I love about many of the rabbit specific rescues I have come across is that they have an education requirement (with a nominal fee that goes to the rescue) for all adopters which helps screen out less serious owners (which is especially important for rabbits).

    41. MeowYorker*

      I’d work for National or State Parks! Fresh air, physical activity, tranquility (maybe not when tourists swarm, but still), geeky nature research…

    43. OtterB*

      I’d like to do something with education for nontraditional students – GED classes for adults, mentoring first-gen college students, something along that line.

      Or something with books for middle grade readers. Read aloud to them, maybe.

      Also, I’d like to have more time for prayer and meditation. I think of the verse from “If I Were a Rich Man” in Fiddler on the Roof: “If I were rich, I’d have the time that I lack / To sit in the synagogue and pray … That would be the sweetest thing of all” Except, Catholic here, so it’s not the synagogue I’d be sitting in.

    45. Qwerty*

      Honestly I’d still be an engineer. I like solving people’s problems so programming for a client or end use is more enjoyable than trying to do it as a hobby. Maybe I was mega-rich I would do it for free and just show up at certain companies and insist on fixing thing like the Mary Poppins of software development.

      1. Daydreaming Admin Assistant*

        I’ve fantasized about learning web design just so that I could kick down the door of nonprofits with outdated websites and forcibly redo them for free.

    46. JeanB in NC*

      I would own a bookstore that sold mysteries & science fiction, and children’s books in another section. It would have a community meeting place.

    47. Quinalla*

      I’d probably scale my real job back to part time (I like a lot of it, but if I had the choice I wouldn’t do it FT as I want to pursue more of my other passions) and then volunteer (food bank, library tutoring, blood donation) with some of that time, do more for women in my field (engineering) with some of the time, write/read/meditate – ie quiet, private activities – with the rest of that time.

    48. Ama*

      I would work in a yarn shop or a bookstore but I’d want to be the person in the back doing the ordering/inventory maintenance, and maybe putting together events, not sales staff. I would LOVE to have it be my job to find interesting and new yarn/knitting products and/or books.

    49. Daydreaming Admin Assistant*

      I would go do an art degree or two, then become a full-time illustrator / graphic novelist / video game artist. I’d live in a cool city and I’d rent a studio not too far from my cozy apartment. The studio itself would be private, but it would be in a building with other studios and common spaces for socializing.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        As a full-time illustrator, I will say that yes it would be the best job ever if money were no object! (You’d get to turn down all trainwreck-looking jobs)

    50. Loves Libraries*

      School librarian. I was one until the school decided librarians were too expensive. We have masters degrees. I miss the children, the colleagues , and the children’s books.

      1. Live & Learn*

        I’d be a life long student. Cooking school, photography classes, human rights law degree, travel and take classes on local issues.

    51. S-Mart*

      I’d like to say professional gamemaster (for tabletop RPGs) – but doing that 40+ hours a week would *probably* burn me out. I generate new ideas for campaigns faster than I can ever run them. I have about 11 campaigns I want to run at the moment, beyond the two I’m actively running. If I was being paid I’d be a little less bitter that nobody’s running anything for *me* to play in.

      I know people who’ve been paid to run games here & there, but never heard of it being doable as a full time job.

    52. pony tailed wonder*

      Dog walker or pet sitter. I am happy when I am out walking and I might as well take someone else along.

    54. Never Been There, Never Done That*

      I would love, love, love to work at an animal sanctuary. Maybe something with horses. I’ll take horses over humans any day. At least they don’t try to pass their shit off as something else.

    57. Windchime*

      I would be a professional quilter. I’m on the verge of buying a giant long-arm machine to do just that, but it’s super expensive and I need to rearrange my house to make it fit. I would do the super artistic, fancy kind of quilting that people pay for and enter into quilt shows. And I would knit Icelandic sweaters for people out of fancy Icelandic wool.

    58. Existentialista*

      I saw on someone’s actual work bio the title “Public Intellectual”. I would pick that!

    59. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have friends with a small motel and a smaller next-generation than is really needed to run it. I’d love to buy into it. My part would be all the hands-on bits that grandma & grandpa had as their specialties–maintenance and the shirt-order breakfast&lunch. I’d love to see it back to its funky 1950s glory, and I’d try turning a bank of 1950s phone booths into a small display case to sell local art & craft’s & jewelry.
      It’s my favorite powerball fantasy.

    60. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’m very blessed that being a special collections librarian basically is my passion project, but I’d love to get to work with different materials- paper toys and fashion history would be what I’d spend my time on rather than what I actually do spend my time on.

    61. Short & Sweet*

      Pet rescue transport! Combines my love of animals, my passion for rescue, and adds in the non-flying travel that I always want to do more of. The major thing I’d worry about is that I’ll end up with a Partridge-family style bus filled with all the animals that I’m supposed to be delivering, and instead the animals and I just end up traveling around the country picking up more!

    62. Tenebrae*

      Author! Or, since I’m in my passion field, all the interesting parts of my job and none of the boring ones.

    63. ...*

      Shih tzus only dog daycare with only 4-5 dogs at a time so I could pay extreme attention to their every need.

  14. Ok Boomer (meme of the week)*

    How do people deal with job searching burnout?

    I’ve been going on almost 2 years and I can’t muster up energy or enthusiasm in my cover letters. Government positions that I’m aiming for also take so long so the delays are even worse. (I am a freelancer but want to transition back into non-profits/government jobs because of student loans and other reasons).

    2. calonkat*

      Treat the job search as a job itself. Assign specific hours that you’ll do it, then do OTHER things the rest of the time. Also it’s ok to do the “vacation” thing when needed, just like any job.

      I deleted my personal story of woe, but trust me, doing organized job searching is itself a job. Treat it like one and separate out family/personal time to recharge yourself.

    3. DrTheLiz*

      SAME. I’m a year in, and am unemployed. It’s SO hard, especially when you’ve really put yourself into a cover letter (or whatever) and then just radio silence from the other end. I’ve got no advice but oh boy can I empathise.

    4. Formerly Frustrated Optimist*

      I don’t know that I can in good conscience recommend taking a break from searching, because if jobs are hard to come by in your field – and, if you’ve been looking for almost two years, they most likely are – you probably can’t afford to miss a posting that sounds like it would be a good match.

      This was very much my story a couple years ago, and, in fact, my job search took three years of continual searching and applying.

      As far as the cover letters, you can try developing some really solid paragraphs that you can mix, match, and tailor as needed so that you don’t feel like you’re reinventing the wheel each time.

      The only other advice I have is to allow yourself to acknowledge how crappy this feels. You don’t need to sugarcoat it to yourself or to anyone else. It was truly the worst thing I’ve gone through in my adult life. But eventually – after 146 applications – I got out. I don’t want to tell you that eventually it will all work out, etc., because I used to HATE it when people would say that. But I’ve been where you are and came out on the other side, so maybe my story will give you a little hope.

      Keep us posted here. There are many of us who would be glad to support you.

      1. Mellow*

        I was unemployed for a year a few years ago and I loved it when people told me things would work out.

        Their confidence gave me hope and motivated me to continue applying, and helped me sleep at night.

        To each her own, I guess.

    5. QCI*

      Try some gig jobs if you can. Uber, lyft, Doordash, Postmates, etc. Or part time work, just anthing to get you out and doing something.

      Unless you currently have a job/income and just looking for something else, in which case idk? videogames or something.

    6. Witchy Human*

      A year for me of looking for a job without success. It’s crappy. And it’s hard to keep going when you’re really discouraged. And, in a weird way, keeping in mind that it’s hard has helped me fight the burnout a little.

      A friend of mine once told me her attitude to online dating: “I figure every date where I don’t get murdered is a success.”

      I try to do that with job hunting. Every time I overcome my lack of inertia and pessimism to write a decent cover letter and submit an application: success. Every interview where I don’t think I’ve actually burned a bridge with the company: success.

    7. thakkali*

      I had a very, very long job search and I found that it helped me to take breaks/vacations where I did no job searching.

      The other thing I developed for myself was a points system to keep me engaged in the job search. You do so much work, and often get NO feedback (“Are my applications just falling into a black hole? I’m not even getting rejections!” etc.) SO, my point system gave me points for applying to jobs, researching companies, doing phone interviews, doing informational interviews, etc. And I set myself a points goal for each day (or a weekly goal). It helped me to stay engaged with the job search and at least FEEL like I was making progress.

      I kept track of my points, and job search brainstorms, etc. in a notebook. I also wrote myself a few lines that I read every morning before I started. These included “You only need to connect with ONE job” (because I would look at the sheer number of jobs I had applied to, and lose heart.)

      1. halfwolf*

        oh this sounds like it would VERY helpful for me! i struggle with finding internal motivation – i do best when i’m assigned things, because it’s easier for me to let myself down than someone else – so if you have time to elaborate on how you “graded” yourself i would really appreciate it!

        1. thakkali*

          Sure! Like I said, I came up with a list of common/fairly common job search activities and assigned a point number for each. If I remember, the list included: conducting a search/reviewing search results from LinkedIn/Indeed, researching resulting open positions, reaching out to people in my network, applying to jobs, phone interviews, actual interviews, sending follow-ups/thank yous.

          I gave myself more points for those activities that would inherently take more time/take more out of me (ex. interview)

    8. 1234*

      One of my job searches, I told myself “hey, this could take years so be prepared for the long haul and be willing to accept that this is a long journey.”

      I hate to say it, but most non-profit interview processes are LONG. When I interviewed for them, there were phone interview, written assignments, more phone interviews, in-person interviews…

      Have you also thought of branching out beyond government and non-profit?

    9. AnonyNurse*

      I’m much earlier into unemployment. But I feel your pain and have nothing to offer. I am doing a terrible job staying motivated.

      I do enjoy watching the impeachment hearings and reading the transcripts and stuff. So I’m convincing myself that this is a good time to be unemployed.

  15. Washi*

    Group project woes: There’s 5 of us working on a group project for my online class, and one person “Amy” has not responded to a single email. We have been using Blackboard and email going back and forth, and we had a deliverable due this week, and Amy did absolutely nothing.

    1. Amy is in one of my in-person classes. I’ve considered asking her if she is in our group, just to confirm (maybe she accidentally signed up for two? idk) but then I don’t know what to say if she says yes! Do I ask her point blank why she isn’t contributing? Ask her to start contributing?
    2. Let’s say we get to the end of the project and Amy has still done nothing. Do we tell the professor? Or let her ride our coattails?

    1. Peaches*

      I don’t have much advice, but you have my sympathies. This is why I HATED group projects in school. I remember seeing a tweet once that said, “when I die, I want all the people who I’ve worked on group projects with to lower me down in my casket so they can let me down one last time.” So. Relatable.

    2. Jabs*

      Maybe I’m terrible but I would do both: talk to her, and then if she doesn’t shape up at least a little, mention something to the professor.

      I’ll be honest and say I’ve been on both sides of this; both as the person who took on too much and just could not pull my weight, and the person pulling the group. I would go into the discussion with her without any assumptions (maybe her Mom is sick and she has already spoken to the professor, maybe your emails are getting spammed, who knows). Then I would see if you can get some sort of concrete commitment from her (like she will work on x, y, and z for the next part) so that at the very least you’re setting up expectations.

    3. merp*

      Asking her is totally fair, and so is telling the prof if she doesn’t shape up and do something. Hundred percent. I know it’s awkward, but it’s the situation she has put herself into by doing nothing.

    5. Bagpuss*

      I think you can definitely ask her, in fact you could even frame it as “Aa you haven’t responded to any messages or participated in the group, I wondered whether it was an error, or if you had inadvertently signed up for two groups and forget to withdraw from ours?”

      If she says that she is part of you group the I think it is entirely reasonable to ask her if she can check in, identify what she proposes to do / contribute- presumably you and the other members need to know in order to work out your own contributions.

      And document it and let the professor know, if she doesn’t do anything.

    6. Purt's Peas*

      I would talk with her in person at your class. First confirm that she is in the group–it’s possible she dropped the class and Blackboard didn’t update, or some BS like that. Then I’d make sure she’s getting your emails & messages, and has been around (ie not on bereavement leave or whatever). Something like, “Oh, Amy, you’re in X class and in my group for Y project right?” (Yes) “Gotcha, I’m asking cause I want to make sure you’re getting Blackboard messages & emails.”

      If no, next step is “Is there a better way to reach you?” If yes, “Ok, then I want to check in with you–we had a deliverable last week and me, Josh, and Agatha did the work for it. Can I ask you to work more closely with the group? What can we do to split up the contributions more fairly?”

      AND, yes you absolutely tell the professor. I would do so if she doesn’t participate in your next deliverable after you’ve had this conversation with her (or before). Don’t wait until the end of the project–your professor is the voice of authority here, and can either pull Amy out of your group, talk with Amy, or tell you “this happens with online classes–I’ll keep that in mind for the grading.”

    7. Enough*

      First talk to Amy. Don’t ask if she’s in your group. Just assume and explain that the group has started working and there has been no input from her. Ask if the email you have for her is correct/is she getting the information. She should hopefully have an explanation for you.
      As for informing the professor – that will depend on what information you get from Amy. At the least when you submit your work it should have the names of the people who actually did the work.
      My daughter is in graduate school (I don’t know how the teacher used the information) and she had a professor who actually asked them at the end to indicate how much of the work each member did as a percentage of the total. I have to admit I would have liked to have seen what the 2 who did the least work said. My daughter and the other student agreed on the percentages and were even a little generous with the other 2 but still indicated that they had done more than 50% (30-30-20-20).

    8. Recent Grad*

      You really should ask her in person. If she says yes then ask why she hasn’t responded to group communications. If she doesn’t want to contribute then you can communicate that with your group so there is no more confusion.

    9. JustMyImagination*

      I had a professor include a peer-grade in each group project. You graded your partner’s contributions and had to provide details to support your claim and he factored that into individual grades. If the whole group gave you an F and said you didn’t participate you would not earn the group grade.

      If she says yes, perhaps something like “Because you haven’t been very involved to date. Is there a better way than the Blackboard to get in touch with you?”.

      1. Argye*

        This. I don’t give group work without some sort of peer evaluation that impacts the grade. There’s too much opportunity for abuse otherwise. Washi – does your prof not have something like that implemented?

    10. Parenthetically*

      Absolutely communicate with Amy and your prof. And in the future you can be way more proactive! You don’t have to wait until you’re turning in assignments without one group member’s participation!

      “Hi Amy, I’m assuming there’s some kind of miscommunication here. We had Deliverable X due this week and it had to be sent off without your participation because we have not heard from you since the start of the project. Please get back to us ASAP re: the next assignment. Thanks. I’ll follow up with you in class on Tuesday in case we have the wrong email address.”

      “Hi Professor Kratsch, as you can see from our Blackboard screenshot below, Amy Hua was assigned to our group. She has not responded to any of our group emails thus far, and we had to turn in our assignment last Thursday without her participation. I spoke to her today in class and she confirmed she was in the group and we have her correct email, but she still has not responded. Our plan is to proceed without her input. Is this email sufficient notice to you that she has not participated to date? Should we plan to continue to keep you apprised? Thank you. Washi, on behalf of Ann, Kamal, and Beto.

    12. Quinalla*

      Yes talk to her in person to make sure there isn’t some technical glitch or mix up or whatever on her part. If she continues to have zero participation, yes bring it up with your professor! It is one thing if you have someone slacking a bit in a group and others pulling extra weight, kind of happens in all group project, but someone doing nothing? Do not let that stand!

    13. Sabrina*

      As someone who assigns group work, I’d actually suggest telling the professor now rather than waiting until the end, if talking to her doesn’t get you anywhere. Sometimes there are things we can do to fix things like this, both for your group and maybe for the non participating member, but we can’t do much at the end. And we also might have context you don’t about the student who isn’t participating.

    14. Summertime*

      I definitely agree with everyone above to approach her without judgment and ask. If she’s got something going on where she can’t participate as actively as she normally could, you could assign her a more individual task. For example, draft the slides for the powerpoint presentation and then assign the more involved tasks such as deciding on a topic and what you want to cover to the rest of the group.

      Give her an opportunity to shape up! But at the same time be cautious that you might need to step in if Amy isn’t contributing or responding to communication. Unfortunately, you will have to manage Amy in a way. You are giving her candid feedback and asking her to do something to improve the situation and then monitoring to see if she pulls through.

      I would recommend that if Amy communicates that she knew about the project and didn’t care to contribute, you should communicate this to your professor immediately. Send an email and say “I have been communicating with Amy through Blackboard and email regarding this week’s deliverable since last week and she has not been responsive. She has so far had no contributions to the deliverable due this week. I spoke to her in class regarding this and she indicated that she had received the emails but [Insert Amy’s bogus reason here]. I stressed to Amy that we need her contributions in order to complete this project fairly between all the members. I am writing to communicate the situation, so you are aware of what is happening. Can we communicate to you at the end of the project whether we have all worked together successfully through an peer grading system?”

      An old professor of mine required that we review each team member at the end of project on their level of contribution. He also emphasized that if we experienced an issue, we should address it as soon as we saw it to give that person a chance to improve instead of blindsiding them at the end with the review.

      All in all, don’t feel guilty about reporting a poor performer because they should not be getting the same recognition or grade as those who are contributing.

    15. Cat Fan*

      I had the same thing happen when I was in an online class. I let the professor know that only two out of the three of us in my group were doing the work. It affected the non-contributing person’s grades. The professor told him my comments and he actually wrote to me asking why I said it. I said because this is what happened. An and gave him examples of all the times he made plans to do stuff and then never materialized. And that was the end of it.
      In your case, I’m not sure how it would hurt to ask this person if she’s in your group and then see where the conversation goes from there. if she says yes and then still doesn’t do anymore, I definitely would tell the professor. Some people need to learn the hard way that they can’t just let other people pick up their slack.

    16. Squidhead*

      The Blackboard system where I just finished a program would allow you to email classmates through the course interface. Super handy! Except they showed up in the recipient’s school inbox as being from “[student] @ school.edu” and only if you hovered over the name would you see that it redirected to “do-not-reply @ school.edu” After a semester or two (it wasn’t an entirely synchronous program) most people caught on. I’d give her the benefit of the doubt once and then loop the instructor in if things don’t immediately improve. On the one hand, technology can be annoying. On the other hand, it’s not like she shouldn’t generally be aware of the existence of this project. She could have emailed you guys, too.

  16. I really need advice here*

    Well hello, readers. I am back at it again with yet another bad situation. I just found out that my boss is changing our health insurance plan due to “financial circumstances” and it will end up costing me hundreds more each month. The real kicker is that the person that does payroll told us that my coworker, Jeff, who is the boss’ friend, just got a $30,000 a year raise. Yes, I know she shouldn’t have told us, but here we are now. No one else in the office will be getting raises this year and now we are going to have our health insurance, that neither my boss nor Jeff are on, to pay for it. As an aside, per our employee manual (which was last updated the week before I was born) states that our employer will cover 100% of our premium. Currently and in the new plan, our employer will only be covering 80% of our premium. I am planning on using this information to fight back against these ridiculous plan changes (my out of pocket is going from $500 to $4,500). Any advice?

    1. voyager1*

      Don’t bring up the 30K. Ask about the employee manual part though. Most manuals have the disclaimer that they can change at any time.

      1. I really need advice here*

        I know, I haven’t brought up the raise since it is inappropriate. But it was really difficult when my boss was telling me about all of our financial problems to not say anything. Our employee manual has no such disclaimer. It states “Group medical and hospitalization insurance is provided to all employees at no cost to the employee after 30 days of employment.”

      1. I really need advice here*

        Working on it, but I have only been in this job for 10.5 months. Going to start seriously looking after one year.

        1. The Cosmic Avenger*

          Start NOW. First off, it might easily take a month and a half to get an interview and get hired. Second, you need to get out ASAP, unless all your other jobs were less than a year it’s unlikely anyone will even care, even if they notice, your length of tenure with your current employer.

        2. Quill*

          Start now, if you’re in the US, many industries basically don’t make any progress on hiring throughout november and december. It could take a month from application before you even get an interview!

        3. crchtqn*

          You should start looking immediately. It takes a long time to find a new job depending on your market. Even when I’ve suddenly sprung up on a job, it took 1.5 months to go to the new one after interviews and 2 weeks notice.

          1. Natalie*

            That would be a helluva insurance plan. I think they’re talking about the deductible, not the premium.

            1. Doug Judy*

              Yes. That sounds like the out of pocket cost/deductible. It’s not monthly because some people that would literally be more than they make a year.

              And honestly, $4,500 out of pocket a year is pretty average these days.

        5. M*

          Start looking now. This shitty company has given you the silver lining of a very clear-cut reason to give for why you’re looking to move jobs so quickly after starting at this one. “They’re changing healthcare plans, and the new plan will increase my out-of-pocket by 900%” is a pretty simple answer to a concern you might be a job-hopper, you’ll be fine even if you *do* get interviews immediately after starting looking.

    3. I really need advice here*

      Well if anyone is still following this, I finally snapped. My boss came into my office to say that I shouldn’t be upset since it isn’t that bad of a policy (it will cost me about $260 more per month). To which I responded that “savings for our company should not be done on the back of your lowest paid employee.” So that happened.

        1. I really need advice here*

          He said sorry and walked out. Just sent an email that he’s here if I want to talk to him.

          1. WellRed*

            Oh dear. I mean, I totally get it and am angry on your behalf but you are not the only one getting hit with this change (You aren’t, are you?). You should talk to him, but deep breaths first and plan what you want to focus on. It’s huge increase all at once.

            1. valentine*

              What if you say the sudden change is extremely difficult to weather and ask him to honor the 100% coverage this year? You’ll have bought yourself a year.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Sounds to me like the payroll person is ‘in on it’ as well as your boss and Jeff. Is it possible that they are spreading outrageous (false) information to get people to be so incensed they will move elsewhere and quit?

  17. Orange Crushed*

    I’m new to the business/office world, so pardon my ignorance, but is it normal for managers to not greet you until you say good morning to them? I’m in a low level position and there are managers who will greet one another, but basically ignore me unless I greet them. I always say good morning, even if they don’t, but I can’t figure out if it’s a ranking thing or personality thing? (Or both?) Others will greet my coworkers or people they know, except me. I’m new, but it’s awkward because my department is very small.

    Any ideas or input is appreciated.

    1. The Meow*

      That’s obnoxious of them to not greet people because they are more junior to them. That’s super weird and I judge them for it.

    2. Okay*

      I think it depends on the office. People in my office almost never greet one another unless we happen to pass in the hall and make eye contact.

      1. Joielle*

        Same here. We’re all pretty independent and don’t really rely on each other to do our day to day work, so there’s no need to know if people are here or check in or anything. I just say hi to whoever I happen to see.

    3. JustMyImagination*

      I think that’s weird. When I had reports at my old job, I always made it a point to swing by their desks in the morning to say hello and make sure they were all set for the day. My current manager makes it a point to do a cubicle round at least once a day to say hi and check in with people.

      1. Clisby*

        I would think having a manager come by my office/desk every day to say hello was extremely weird. Fortunately, I never had one who did that.

        Typically, I’d expect managers to greet their reports if they pass them in the hall or something like that – unless they’re deep in conversation with someone else.

        1. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

          I had a manager that would do this. He would come by early in the morning and chat with you one-on-one for about 5 minutes. We would cover almost anything from the game last night to project updates. This is how he connected with people. I haven’t been able to do this and make it feel natural I am too introverted. A weekly one-on-one with my people feels like a visit to the dentist for me but I get that it is part of my role. Of course, if I pass someone in that hall regardless of their role/rank I say hello, how’s your day going. That is just common courtesy.

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      I think it’s a little rude but it’s not entirely out of the norm. I like giving out good mornings when I see colleagues because I’m generally a positive person and I like to kick off the day on a good note. If I don’t get one back it doesn’t affect me in any way as I just assume the person didn’t hear me/doesn’t feel like talking (which is perfectly fine btw, some folks just don’t like talking/had a bad start to their day/millions of other reasons.). The key is to keep it moving as you’re giving the greeting or if you sitting at your desk, say hello and then go back to whatever it is you were doing before. Don’t wait for a response back as that might make it weird, especially if the person you greeted didn’t hear you and you’re just standing/sitting there looking at them.

      I had a previous manager where it was a 20% they would greet you, 80% you needed to greet them. That being said it was pretty easy to tell when they were having a good morning or not since they had a door that directly went to their office. If they walked through the cube farm, chances are they were looking for a greeting/doling them out. Straight to the office meant give them 30 minutes unless you had an urgent issue.

    5. Madeleine Matilda*

      I come in very early in the morning and only one of my direct reports is in before. I always say hello to him as I walk by his desk. The others I’ll greet if I run into them in the hallway or need to go ask them something. But my direct reports are spread all over our building so I don’t even see all of them everyday. I’ve worked with people who don’t want to be bothered first thing in the morning and others who want to talk. It really just depends on the person.

    7. Earthwalker*

      I had an introverted boss who made a point of taking an odd path from the entrance to his office every morning just to avoid the need to greet anyone. Is it possible that your boss isn’t looking down on subordinates but is just not comfortable with playing the extrovert?

    8. Mama Bear*

      Depends on the job. I had a manager who disliked it when I did not say hello and good bye. Current manager doesn’t care – if I see them, I’ll say hi, but I don’t seek them out every morning.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      To me it’s a personality thing.
      Ignore it.

      These things can change with time. I worked with a boss from another department. I’d say, “Good morning!” and he would say, “What’s so good about it?”. We did this for a while. Knowing the personality, I laughed it off and switched up what I was doing. I started saying, “Morning!” and he’d say, “What’s so good about it?”. I would reply it was just a statement of fact with no editorial comment. And we had this conversation every day for a while.

      Finally one day IT happened. I walked in “morning!” and he simply said, “morning!”. Unfortunately this person passed away. Had he lived we would have worked on him saying morning first. Since it took 5 years to get to where we were at, I estimated it would be another 10 years before he initiated the good mornings.
      He was only a few years older than me when he passed. I am glad that I kept trying and didn’t let it bother me.
      I basically liked him and a bunch of us cried when he died.
      Try, try, try not to get too hooked on who says good morning and when. I know it’s hard but sometimes there is a larger story running in the background.

    10. LilySparrow*

      It’s a personality/culture thing. They just aren’t very nice.

      There are about the same proportion of jerks in management as everywhere else, but some industries and companies seem to collect them.

      1. LilySparrow*

        Caveat: I read the question as if these folks are walking right past you and greeting others but passing you over. That’s a jerk move.

        If they are not passing you but you hear or see them greeting others in a different part of the office, that’s pretty standard. Some managers make rounds to greet everyone, but it’s not common.

    11. WalkedInMyShoes*

      Keep saying, “hello!” Some professionals don’t have an emotional intelligence quotient (EIQ). I like to start my days on a positive not, but if the person does not . . . it’s ok. At least you are a positive presence.

  18. boringname123*

    If you were going to give notice today and wanted to do give the equivalent of two weeks notice (the offices are closed the 28th & 29th for Thanksgiving), what date would you suggest for your last day?

    2. Also a project manager*

      I’d go with December 6th. In my office, it’s safe to assume there will be no one around from the Wednesday before Thanksgiving til the Tuesday after (11/27 – 12/3), so pushing till Friday the 6th would give the full 2 weeks’ notice.

    3. wingmaster*

      I would probably have the last day to be 12/2. At my company, I get paid for the 29th, so I would want to make sure to get that extra $ for the paid holidays.

    4. Penny*

      I would probably try to give 10 working days, unless there was a compelling reason that that couldn’t work for me. I would hope that your new employer (assuming your are giving notice because of a new job) would understand that someone would want to give the equivalent of two full weeks notice.

    5. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Since Thanksgiving is at the end of the month, I’d go with 12/6. However, double-check that there are no benefits to starting at the beginning of December. I was in a similar position last year, except Thanksgiving was earlier. So it behooved (eligible for the following year-end bonus, got December’s optional holidays, etc.) me to make my last day the Wednesday before the holiday and start working before the 1st of December.

      1. Bubbles*

        This! Check with your new company. When I switched, I picked Dec 1 as a start date and kick myself for not picking Nov 30th. My health insurance and other benefits would have started in January rather than February.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          I forgot to mention that! My health insurance started the next calendar month so I had zero gaps in coverage. All in all, it was the best move *for me*. I didn’t want to leave my old company in the lurch. But, at the same time, they won’t look out for me as well as I will.

        2. Mama Bear*

          And also double check any vesting periods on anything at the old company – I missed being another step vested by leaving one of my early companies 2 weeks too early.

    6. Amy*

      Just ask! “Two weeks notice would result in my last day being November 29th. With the Thanksgiving holiday and various leave requests in this department, I know that is unlikely to be a convenient date. What makes more sense to you? Should I plan to wrap up my work prior to the holiday, or return to finish up for a day or two afterwards?”

    7. ElizabethJane*

      How much do you like your company and what’s the start date of your new job?

      I left a job I hated over Christmas 2 years ago and followed the letter of 2 weeks. I had PTO scheduled for the week between Christmas and New Years, and my boss was out of the country at the time, which means I gave them 2 working days notice. But that’s what happens when you treat your employees like crap.

      On the other hand if I loved my job I’d give as close to 10 working days as possible, including trying to push back my start date at my new company to make it work.

    9. Ms Cappuccino*

      It would depend if I needed to be out in 2 weeks or not. If I had something scheduled I would still give 29th Nov at my last day.
      Otherwise, I would give 2 more working days so Tuesday 3rd December, but only if they are a good and respectful employer.

    10. CAA*

      Just be aware that in a lot of companies your last day cannot be a holiday. Sometimes it’s just a company rule about having to work the day before and/or after in order to get holiday pay. Sometimes it’s a complication of state laws that say your final paycheck has to be delivered to you on your final day of work, and they’re not going to make other people work on a holiday just to produce your final check.

      Therefore if you give the 29th as your final day, they may come back and say it has to be the 27th, so you’ll be out two days of pay. If you’re not willing to lose those two days, then give Friday, December 6th as your final day.

      1. Daisy-dog*

        ^^Precisely! Though I actually know people that would flat out say, “Lol, nope!” if you tried to make the 29th your last day. Maybe your company is nicer than that.

  19. Loves Libraries*

    From the 9/27 open thread. We had anon for this post about a possible coverup with some compliance issues. OP thought their company and made a small mistake and boss was denying it. I don’t think there ever was an update. I’ve been thinking about the OP and wondering how everything is.

    2. Anon for this*

      Hey! I think you’re talking about me… I posted about discovering a regulatory violation that I believe we need to report, and our branch legal department agrees, but management doesn’t want to report and claims that the corporate legal department says we don’t have to.

      I don’t really have much of an update at this point because nothing has been decided yet. If we do end up reporting it, it goes into our annual compliance report to the regulatory agency, which will be in early 2020, so I still have some time. I will post a real update when I get a final decision, though!

  20. Moving*

    What’s the most effective way to network one’s way into a job in a different part of the country where you don’t know a soul?

    Compounding the issue, my field tends to be in areas I don’t want to live in, so I’m probably looking at a career change using “transferable skills.” I’m really not sure where to start here.

    1. pally*

      Find professional organizations in industries in the area you wish to work in – and that you wish to work in.
      Find if they have a local chapter in the area you will be working in. If so, ask about networking events, meetings, job search assistance, introductions, etc. If you are not a member, ask about reduced dues (for being a newbie in the industry or not having a job in the industry).

    2. consultinerd*

      An ideal way would be to switch to a remote role in your current field, move to the area you’d like to live in, and build your network there. Obviously this isn’t feasible in many fields, but after two years of job hunting remotely this is what finally worked for me.

      If you can’t do this, trips to your target area to attend professional events and meet people face to face might be the next best thing if you can swing it financially.

  21. Princess Nectarine*

    Today’s question is about: references!

    I’ve never given references to an employer before (I’m not from the US and it’s not in our hiring culture to do it) but I’m applying for jobs abroad and so I know I will have to real soon. How should I go about it? I have so many questions!

    – Do I need to prepare a list on Word with the name, phone numer, email and company name of every single person who’s willing to be a reference for me? Do I need to add any other information? And how should I format the list?

    – How far back should I go for references? I’ve had a total of three jobs in the past, and I started the first one about seven years ago.

    – How many references are too many (or too little)? Basically what’s the ideal number of references one should offer? I know I have at least three good references for each of my last two jobs, and I think I can get at least two from the first one. Is this an ok quantity?

    – Do I have to have this list ready after I pass the phone interview and schedule a second one? Or should I do it before then?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Typically I list them like this:

      Jane Smith, design manager, Teapot Industries (so, their current title)
      directly managed me at Teapot Industries (how they know me)
      e-mail address, phone number

      I usually have 3 or 4 unless the company specifies; I think 7 years is fine, I wouldn’t go back more than 5-10 unless the job is directly applicable and specialized somehow. Just make sure they’re people who will give you a good reference!

      1. ThatGirl*

        Oh, and you should have the list ready to go when you’re seriously job searching, but don’t send it until asked.

    2. merp*

      I made a template that had the same top part (with like my name and email and stuff) as my resume to use for both cover letters and lists of reference. And then depending on the job, I would choose the people to add, however many they asked for, which was usually 3. Those entries looked like:

      Felicia Porridge
      Title at Institution (which would match the institution name where I worked with them; if they had moved on somewhere else, I would specify where I worked with them)
      Phone number
      Email

    3. wingmaster*

      My format is like this:

      Name, Title, Company
      Relationship:
      Email:
      Phone:

      Most companies I have interviewed for will ask for 2-3 references. I think having 3-4 is solid. And I will only give my list when asked.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      You should have a list ready to go — you could have a master list with several possibilities if you want to give yourself flexibility (I usually have five people “on deck”), but the one you hand to the employer should have three people on it. The list should have each person’s name, their position and your working relationship (Sansa Stark, Queen of the North, Direct manager during my time at Winterfell). It should have the email and phone number for each reference.

      Ideally, when you start your job search, you should reach out to each person, tell them you are starting a job search, and ask if they are willing to be a reference. Heck, it’s a great opportunity to network! Then, when a potential employer asks for references, contact the three you’ve chosen and let them know — “I’ve gotten to the final stage with the Three-Eyed Raven, so they may be reaching out to you. Let me know if you have any questions. I’d greatly appreciate it if you let me know if they contact you.” Hand the employer the list.

    5. Penguin*

      U.S. convention is (generally) to provide the contact info for 3-5 people who can speak to your working skills, attitude, etc. Typically these would be past managers/supervisors as what a hiring manager would want to know about you is the sort of information that someone in a supervisory position would have. If it’s been an especially long time between job changes for you (i.e. if you stayed at one job for ten years) such that previous supervisors couldn’t comment on “recent you” then often professional recommendations from peers are acceptable, although the more senior they are the more acceptable they are often considered.

      Some companies demand references as part of the application process, but it’s more typical to ask applicants for references only after they’ve moved through the bulk of the process,when a hiring manager has a final short list of candidates (i.e. after you, as the applicant, have been interviewed).

      Assuming you have talked to your potential references and they have agreed to act as such (if you haven’t done that, do that first; don’t just assume that a past supervisor will be a reference for you if you haven’t requested it) it’s generally considered polite to reach out to them at the beginning of your job search to let them know that you’re searching and that they may be contacted be potential employers. If you haven’t talked with them in a while, this is also a good time to check in and make sure that they’re still willing to be a reference for you.

      Once your 3-5 references have confirmed recently that they’ll talk to prospective employers about you, then yes you should have their contact info in a Word doc (or better, a PDF because those are less editable and so less prone to formatting glitches) along with each reference’s name, title, and usually a one line description of their professional relationship with you (e.g. “supervised me at Teapots Inc.”, “oversaw my performance as Llama Groomer and Senior Llama Groomer at Lhasa’s Llamas”, etc.). Once an employer requests your references, you’d send them that list. (You should have that reference list ready to go before or immediately after you start your job search, so that you can send it out immediately if an employer moves quicker than you expect.)

      Others may offer different suggestions, but I’d say formatting doesn’t need to be particularly complex- bold the name, maybe italicize the title, and probably enter each piece of info on its own line, like this:
      John Smith
      Senior Teapot Designer
      Tom’s Teapots
      Email: tsmith@tomsteapots.com
      Phone: 555-666-7777
      >Supervised my performance for two and a half years

      Alison has a bunch more information on references in the ‘references’ tag; definitely check that out too.

    6. Quinalla*

      Typically at least 3 references, the more managers on that list the better, but at least one manager if you either don’t have access to more than one for whatever reason. I have it ready once I am interviewing, but I don’t send it/volunteer it until asked for it (have an electronic copy and paper copies both, less people use paper, but it is nice to have it on hand if requested at an in person interview). The reason to wait until it is asked for is so you can give your references a heads up that they may be contacted soon. Also, you should let them ask so they get it in the part of their process where they are checking references. If you give it too early, they will likely lose the info anyway or might decide to check your references early for no good reason. You don’t want to waste your references’ time!

  22. Alternative Person*

    One of my less nice co-workers decided to pick an argument today, the managers played placation. I talked with one of the managers later and felt like he wanted to smooth the issue over rather than resolve it and just urgh. I don’t like this guy, but I try to be polite, he doesn’t even pretend to respect me. The manager wanted to make it about personal difference when I think there’s a clear respect issue here.

    (not looking for advice just wanted to vent. My insomnia has been bad this week and this was the last thing I needed. Broke my usual rule of not playing games during the work week to try and burn off the worst. Have just made cocoa)

    (It was a stupid thing, the co-worker decided he wanted to use the room I was in (note decided, not ask), I said no, there are two others available, he said I need it as my stuff is in here. I said I’m already set up in here, just move your stuff (basically two light boxes and a file, he moved my stuff, I moved it back and told him no again, managers made us both move. I threw a parting comment about it being rude to touch other peoples stuff without permission and walked out).

    1. Never Been There, Never Done That*

      So you say you’re working with a total douche bag? My condolences. And don’t you just love it when the asshole that started the problem isn’t the one who is just supposed to suck it up and be nice? Urgh, indeed. I felt compelled to comment b/c it is the end of a HARD week and I am having insomnia problems too.

    2. Salymander*

      This guy sounds like an entitled jerkass.

      Manager sounds like one of those teachers who give the whole class detention when only one or two kids are misbehaving.

      This just sucks. Exactly the sort of thing that cocoa was made to remedy.

  23. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    Work clothing questions!
    1. Are the Betabrand (and similar) yoga-pants-dress-pants really all they’re cracked up to be? Like, are they really similar in comfort to yoga pants? Do they really look like dress pants in person, or close enough for government work? I’ve been working from home full time for more than five years, so my work wardrobe is limited at best, but I’ve been nominated for, and submitted my application to, an executive leadership training program through my organization which will involve some on-site situations, including meetings with our C-suite level folks. I haven’t seen these type pants in person and I’m hesitant to spend $80 on them without further information.

    2. My best friend has been getting ads on her social media hocking indestructible tights/hose from sheertex dot com. We have both been boggling at the idea of paying $60 for pantyhose – is anyone familiar with this brand, and are they really all they’re cracked up to be?

    2. no kind of atmosphere*

      I think that if you’re going to be doing executive leadership training and meeting with C-suite folks, best to get real dress pants, and avoid anything spandex or stretchy.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        That’s definitely a thing to consider, but I’m also going through some physical size fluctuations that I’m hoping to accommodate with minimal shopping, so I’m just pondering my options :)

        1. no kind of atmosphere*

          If it’s changes around your waist, I’d say get the larger size pants and then use belts. If you’re going down sizes, you can get things tailored smaller progressively as needed.

          But if you don’t expect to be fitting into clothing long, for sure go with the cheap options. Get the cheap terrible quality stuff that doesn’t last, because you don’t need it to.

        2. Awkward Interviewee*

          I think if you need to be formal enough for C-suite meetings, dresses are probably a better bet? You should be able to find some dresses that look nice but aren’t super fitted – I had some regular wrap dresses and shirt dresses that I was able to wear through most of my second trimester when I was pregnant last year. (I assume you are a person who wears dresses since you asked about pantyhose.)

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            I am, though I usually prefer long skirts so I don’t have to worry about pantyhose. Good thought!

          2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            (I was asking about the pantyhose for my friend, I’m constitutionally incapable of making it through a day without exploding a pair of hose into shreds and ladders so I wouldn’t pay $60 for a pair under any circumstances :) )

          3. Mama Bear*

            Wrap dresses and nice camisoles can fit at a variety of sizes. They are my go-to. Wish I could tell you about the pants or tights.

    3. Rayray*

      On number 1, I don’t know about those pants specifically but I have a couple pairs of Ponte pants from Costco that I like. I think full price was $14.99, and one pair on sale for $9.99. Definitely not the most flattering, not good if you work where people are in tailored suits and such but for the typical business casual workplace, they’re fantastic.

      1. Nesprin*

        Seconded- I’m wearing my costco ponte pants (hillary radley brand I think) and look great for my buis. casual office.

    4. just a small town girl*

      sheertex has been on my to-buy list for ages. I’ve been impressed with what I’ve seen of them in person(a coworker has a pair) but I haven’t bought them myself. I have a 15% off coupon but I’m still holding off on pulling the trigger because…yeah, $60 is a lot.

    5. WellRed*

      I bought a pair for a work trip last month and wore my pair over two very long days. They were comfy, fit and length as advertised and the fabric had a good “weight” to it. Yeah, they were about as comfy as my yoga pants. They arrived quickly (I did pay extra shipping) and The customer service seemed really excellent if you might not like them and need to return. I say give them a try!

    6. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

      I tried them and was disappointed. They felt good and were a decent material, but I had a giant camel toe. Tried different colors, sizes, styles and all of them looked wrong on me. I’m typically a size 8P and don’t have this problem with other pants OR yoga pants/leggings.

      I really wanted to love them but I was so self-conscious walking around my house that I knew I wouldn’t ever wear them and ended up returning them all.

    7. Schnoodle HR*

      Betabrand: For casual office, sure but they are obviously made of stretchy material, and are either unflattering or a little too sexy for true professional wear. Unless you wear a longer shirt to cover the butt and make sure to get the correct size.

      I think you’re better off going to NY&Co and picking up some dress pants there. They also have their own version of the stretch work pants to help you get an idea of what that would look like.

    8. mananana*

      I have some incredibly comfortable Dana Buchman knit pants (with pockets!) that are professional and very comfortable. Under $25 at Kohls.

      1. no kind of atmosphere*

        Kohls is great! I’ve also had good luck getting professional pants for cheap from Zappos (yes, the shoe website).

    9. Another JD*

      They don’t really look like dress pants.

      The thrift store was my best friend for changing sizes post-pregnancy. I could try tons of brands in one place, and the pants were $7.

    10. Amy*

      I love these pants! The non-pocket versions are “close enough for government work,” but the versions with real side and back pockets look exactly like dress pants, even up close. I’ve pulled them off with a jacket in court and been complimented on my new suit. They do not suck you in, so in that aspect, they’re not exactly like yoga pants. Otherwise, they are just as comfy, never wrinkle, breathe well, keep you fairly warm, and are thick enough not to show any weird bulges. They also resist pet hair and haven’t pilled at all despite very frequent wears and washing. If they were cheaper, I’d have a 100. They often have 20% off coupons and promotions, and they do new color releases for every season. You can also join and “vote” on new designs, then you get a discount on it if a design you voted on gets manufactured, so you can easily bring the price down into the $60 range.

      1. Pineapple Incident*

        Totally agree with all said in the above comment. I’m in a government role on the business-casual spectrum, and swear by these. I have 4 pairs of these that I basically wear all the time now – they’re very comfortable and do look like office pants. I wore mine to each of this job’s interviews, and feel professional in them. I can totally get that these might not work for all figures, but I’m not a tiny person (5’7″ and ~190lb, hourglass with some lumps) and I’m a big fan.

    11. I have these pants*

      The Betabrand dress pants yoga pants do feel comfy like yoga pants. The fabric is fairly thick (not like thin legging material), and if you get one with a work-pants-like pattern (eg I have a pinstripe pair), it looks sufficiently close to work pants in a typical business-casual office environment – but probably not enough to pass in a more formal environment (eg a place where people are in business suits or suit jackets).

      However, the fit is a bit more yoga pant than dress pant. I don’t have any issue with camel toe with my pair, but because it is more fitted in the hips and crotch than normal dress pants, it does clearly show the curve of my inner thighs where they kind of swoop out a bit right below the crotch, and the seat is a tad bit snug for an office environment in my opinion. If you have a more straight/less curvy body type they might look fine on you. For myself, I only wear them with longer blouses to de-emphasize the fitted-ness in the seat/crotch

      Overall, I think the fit in the seat/crotch is a bit too yoga-pants to tuck in a shirt and have them still look like dress pants. But if you are less curvy and wore a regular length untucked shirt, or if you are more curvy and wore a longer untucked shirt, you could make them work. I find the comfort is worth having to wear longer shirts, and they actually are my favorite work pants.

      In terms of sizing, definitely follow the sizing chart. I am 5’3 and an hourglass-y pear shape and would normally expect to wear an XS petite, but the S petite fit better. I did still need to hem them because I wanted to wear them with flats.

      1. Joielle*

        I 100% concur on the pants. I love them for my nice-end-of-business-casual workplace, but if it’s a suit and tie environment they probably wouldn’t be dressy enough. I was right between medium and large according to the size chart so I bought a large and that was the right call. I’m also pear shaped and they are pretty form-fitting, which doesn’t bother me, but I do usually try to wear a longer shirt.

    12. Qwerty*

      Betabrand tends to look more like yoga pants than dress pants, especially in the waist/upper thigh area.

      With stretchy fitted pants, I recommend going up a size so that it doesn’t look like you are wearing tights/leggings. Stretchy-style pants tend to look tighter than we intend.

      I’ve had good luck with Old Navy’s Pixie pants, though the color/pattern/fabric affects whether they look like dress pants or stretchy pants. Try them on in a store though – the stretchiness/stiffness varies by fabric so you need to try them on first. The stiffer fabrics I can sometimes buy in my size, but the stretchy one I definitely have to go up at least one size to be “professional”. They often go on sale for $20-30, so they could hold you over while you find something more long term.

    13. Delta Delta*

      I was walking down the street and overheard two women walking behind me. One told the other she had a pair and declared them “amazing.” Was prompted by them talking about random ads they saw on Facebook. The owner of the pants mentioned she saw the ad and gave them a try and loves them. She was not wearing them at the time so I couldn’t see how they looked but she sounded sincere. Made me think I might want to try them.

    14. Coco*

      I own maybe 6 pairs? I bought the short length. I’m 5’2” and def need heels. Even with the same style, with the different fabrics, the stretch can be different. I like the ones with the higher waist, 6 buttons, and real pockets. There’s the same amount of camel toe on these as with other yoga pants so I wear them with longer shirts/ sweaters. They are v comfortable but if you don’t have a thigh gap there can be some pilling in the inner thighs after a while for some of the more tweed like patterns (don’t have that problem with the solids). Despite all of this, they are v comfy and I get compliments on them so recommend. (When you use coupons/ sales)

    15. Effie, who gets to be herself*

      I adore Sheertex! I haven’t tried the pantyhose/tights so can’t speak to sizing there. I wear thigh-high stockings almost every day so I own several pairs of the classic stockings, two pairs of the swizzle socks, and two pairs of knee-highs. They can snag and it really is easy to massage the fibers back into place. My best friend has long fake nails and I gave her a test sock to try and poke through and she couldn’t. They do have sales once in a while, so maybe try a pair then? I’ve found that they’re super worth it; I haven’t had to stop and hunt for another stocking when my toenail poked through because my toenails don’t poke through Sheertex!

  24. LilacLily*

    I applied for a job at a company that’s part a very well known university in the UK, and about a week and a half later I got an email saying I was being invited for an interview. I was really happy at first, but when I read the email more carefully I realized they were inviting me for a face-to-face, one-and-a-half hours long interview, without doing a phone interview first. I emailed the person who’s handling the process and explained that I cannot attend the interview personally because I’m in a completely different country, and asked if the interview could be done via Skype instead; she answered that the panel didn’t know how to deliver the task I was supposed to do during the interview via skype (they mentioned I’d have to take a test of some sort) so they’re going to interview the candidates they have and if the position isn’t filled they’ll “consider requesting a skype interview” with me.

    am I right to think this was a huge red flag and that I may have dodged a bullet? Why invite me for a local interview without doing a phone interview first? I considered paying out of my own pocket to go to this interview, but it would make more sense to do that if this was the last interview in the process, but this is only the first.

    Another red flag is that I found one of the interviewers on LinkedIn, and I saw that when she began working for this company she was hired for the same position that I applied for, but it took her FIVE YEARS before getting a promotion. As someone who’s trying to move up in her career that scared me a little bit.

      1. JustMyImagination*

        It also depends where you are in your career. I work in the biotech area and in the beginning you seem to get a promotion every 2-3 years. But then there’s a mid-career period where promotions slow down to 5-10 years.

      2. M*

        Yeah, seconding this. Unless you’re *specifically* in an industry and at a level where very regular promotions are just part of the normal progression and you’d have to fail to meet standards not to get them, five years before a direct internal promotion is pretty unremarkable – not unusually long, not unusually short.

    2. londonedit*

      I don’t know about academia, but my impression is that phone interviews aren’t as common in the UK as in other countries. I’ve never had a phone interview – in my industry unless you apply via a recruitment agency, who will usually do a phone screen to check that you are actually a suitable candidate before they put your application forward to the company itself, usually the first stage is an in-person interview. So they might have been thrown by someone asking for a phone interview if it’s not a normal part of their hiring process. Having said that, it wasn’t great that they couldn’t find some way to be accommodating of the fact that you are clearly in another country (surely they’d have realised that from your application). Where I work we’ve had candidates apply from overseas, and we also have an editorial test for people to do, and the hiring managers have worked out ways of getting the test over to the candidates and having them mark it up in PDF form, for example. There’s no need to be inflexible.

      1. Imprudence*

        This.
        I (UK) had never heard of phone interviews before I started reading this blog.
        Skype however is a real thing in my university. Although I know it is super hard to do well in a Skype interview.

    3. MissGirl*

      Not necessarily. It sounds like they have a system that works for them and enough qualified candidates to fill the spots. If they had a hard-to-fill position, it would be short sighted.

    4. UKCoffeeLover*

      I’m in the UK and work in higher education. Phone interviews are not that common here. Usually we go straight to a face to face so it’s not a red flag at all.
      Skype interviews certainly are possible but I also understand that this is a problem with the test they have prepared.
      Regarding the ‘promtion’. In HE you have to apply for a vacancy, and it will be a competive process. So with the former post holder or maybe that no vacancy became open. This would not be a red flag to me either.
      You could ask them if they will pay for you too attend the interview. If its a senior position its possible. You also need to know if you were successful, will they sponsor you for a visa (assuming you do not have a right to work in the UK).

      1. LilacLily*

        Thank you so much for the info! This is all very useful to know. Unfortunately it’s not a very senior position, so paying for attending wouldn’t be an option (I do have the right to work in the UK tho), but I’m moving to the UK in January, so I’ll keep an eye open for future opportunities when I’m able to attend the interviews :)

    5. ten alpacas*

      A friend just applied for a position at a UK uni (non-faculty), and in person interview at his expense is exactly what it was (he also had to fly in from another country). So, it sounds very standard. He didn’t get the job.

  25. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

    I remember that Alison recently posted instructions on how to search for individual commenters – such as the OP/LW. Will someone please remind me how to do that?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      We’ve got an invisible asterisk now, so if you wanna see ones where the name is OP, search for OP*

      2. DrTheLiz*

        Oh, *that’s* why there’s now a white * at the end of everybody’s name! And why I never noticed it before! Thank you, commenteriat, for improving my day.

      1. Owler*

        Does your phone have an option for you to choose to load the desktop version of this page? Sometimes I have trouble with functions in the mobile page view that will work when I load the desktop page. I’m not saying this will work for you, but maybe give it a try?

  26. Collarbone High*

    Does anyone have tips on finding a career coach for a mid-life career change?

    I feel like I never actually decided on a career; I just fell into something, and it’s not what I want to do for another 30 years, but I don’t know exactly what I *do* want to do. My ideal is someone who could assess my strengths, weaknesses, what I like and dislike in a job, and guide me to something more fulfilling.

    My college doesn’t have much in the way of alumni resources, and everything I’ve found through googling seems to be either kind of holistic life coaching that doesn’t have the concrete help I’m looking for, or things like Job Corps geared to people with little or no work experience.

    1. Wearing Many Hats*

      No advice sadly, but I feel like I’m in the same boat (and I’ve tried some career changes!). You aren’t alone and best of luck!

    2. Type 2*

      Do you have a budget in mind? I spoke to someone this week who sounded great – cost is about $650 for the package.

      1. Collarbone High*

        That’s a good question to ask myself – this is really helpful as an idea of how much something like this would cost.

    3. Quinalla*

      No advice on a career coach, but I’ve gone through several books that were helpful for this for me in figuring it out on my own, there are a lot of books out there if you want to try that while you are looking for a coach.

    5. Tip*

      Reach out to your college or grad school’s career planning center for reccomendations. Mine had a whole list of recommended job coaches for alumni.

  27. Steggy Saurus*

    How would you handle this situation? I’ve got two professional staff members who work in an open area and handle a lot of general questions. I have a space I can open up to make a shared office where they trade off days in the office (say, each has two days a week in a closed office and three days at the open space).

    I proposed this situation, and one of the staff members (the junior one) asked to have the office to themselves. I met with this person and explained why I couldn’t make that work, based purely on the business functions of the job and the way the office runs. They contacted me again with more reasons why they needed a space to themselves. I need to deny this request for many reasons. But should I mention the “fairness” issue? That is, the other person involved is the second-in-charge and is the senior staff member. Do I continue to justify my decision purely on business functions, or do I explain that providing the junior staff member a private office while the senior staff member remains in an open area five days a week is unfair?

    1. WellRed*

      Cut this off now. A junior coworkers is arguing for this over the comfort of another coworker and a senior one at that. And I guess ditch the idea of creating the extra space.

    2. Annabelle*

      Could you offer the office to the senior member? Or do they need to be in the open space to answer questions as well?

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        Ideally, for the functioning of the office, both would be in an open space all the time. But I am sympathetic to the need for private time for work that requires extra concentration from both staff members, which is why I suggested a shared office. I could scrap the plan altogether, but that seems unnecessarily petty.

        1. Mrs_helm*

          I’m concerned that they aren’t getting the picture you are painting, and are pushing awfully hard about having it to themselves. I would worry that if you do implement it as a shared space, they are going to try to take over it completely. Like, change the posted schedule for the room, beg coworker to let her have an extra day/hours for (reasons), etc. She’s being weirdly demanding in response to your kindness!

          I wouldn’t worry about being petty. You have a right to change your mind without justifying it to anyone, especially if you haven’t yet taken action or spent money on this.

    4. LadyTesla*

      This may be a red flag. It seems more like this worker is avoiding something. Is it possible they are either a) secretly introverted, or don’t like their position and wants a role change, or b) dislike the other worker and are looking for a way to minimize interactions?

      I suspect they secretly want to change positions, or like the silence of a closed door and want to have that. I’d say, “It seems like you’re struggling with this proposed change. It is critical for this position that you’re available for questions and answers. If you feel you’re not able to support others, then that’s a different question of if you feel like this role is a good fit for your long term goals. “

    5. ArtK*

      I don’t know that you need to mention the fairness issue. You have determined that this is the schedule and the junior employee has to deal with that. I would be very clear and absolute when responding to this 2nd request. “This is what I have decided and the way things will be. You will not be getting a private office.” Don’t leave any room for negotiating. Don’t use wishy-washy terminology that an unreasonable person could latch onto as a negotiating point. For example, don’t use words like “for now”.

      The junior had the opportunity to make their case at the first request (which was a reasonable thing for them to do — sort of), but they don’t deserve another opportunity. That will just turn into a 3rd attempt and a 4th attempt.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      If I had presented the idea as an idea open for discussion AND it could be my fault the junior person was misunderstanding, I would either have to readdress the whole concept or just cancel the idea.

      Many times there are solutions such as Sally does X on Thursday so Sally has the room Thursday afternoon to finish X. Where X is a time consuming thing and requires concentration. Jane does Y on Monday which is similar to X in time and concentration so she gets the room Monday afternoon to finish up. May/may not be applicable to your setting, just food for thought.

    7. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Nah, at this point I’d just tell them they can’t have a private office. They may have thought originally (depending on how you phrased it) that the decision was open for debate. Make sure they know now that it’s not.

      Generic script:
      “Staffperson, this is a shared office so that both of you have time to do the activities that may require a bit more focus. You will be alternating with OtherStaff. I understand you would like a private office, but to be frank that is not going to happen in the position you are working. You need to be visible and available for our clients.”

      You could also try:
      “Staffperson, in your job position no one has a private office. It’s the nature of the position that you have to be out and available for people that have questions. That’s not going to change. This is a spot for you and your colleague in case you have items that require more focus, ok?”

      Then keep an eye on your junior staff in case they try to monopolize the office. You may need to figure out how to boot Junior Staff out of the office later (due to performance or office-hogging) and still let Senior Staff use it as needed.

    8. Pineapple Incident*

      I don’t really have a solution here, but depending on what resources/amenities are available nearby, your staffer may be trying to raise an issue of not moving personal items back and forth between desks. As an example, where I’m sitting now, I have a small 3 drawer under-desk cabinet that holds some office supplies I’ve purchased myself, feminine products, tea, snacks, hand sanitizer and napkins, and my purse when I’m here. It’s not on wheels, so I can’t move it back and forth between other work stations. There’s no bathroom on the floor where I work, though it isn’t far, these items aren’t provided by work (gov’t, so no amenities) and any other food sources aren’t close. If I were suddenly in a position where these things weren’t super accessible to me (e.g. I had to walk to my desk and get my coworker to wheel their chair out from the desk in order to get to it), I’d be really miffed to say the least. If this is an issue where you are, I’d make sure you include a small amount of movable storage for this sort of thing (like a version of what I have but on wheels), so your employees can swap them between the workstations you’re proposing.

      If having private uninterrupted time for certain tasks is what you’re aiming for, is it possible to institute a workplace flexibilities policy wherein the employees have more time to work from home or from another remote location? May be a suitable alternative to what you’re proposing, which is essentially a form of hot-desking, because it can be ineffective depending on your workplace.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        Thanks for these thoughts on movable storage. If I follow through with the shared space, I will make this available.

  28. Rayray*

    I love Friday open thread!

    I took an executive assistant job back in April. I was leaving a toxic workplace and hoped I could at least network here, maybe just keep the job for a year or so while I tried to figure out what I really wanted in a job. I don’t regret leaving the old job… But I hate this one. The woman I work for is… Horrible to work for. I’ll just say that. Anyone I have vented to has encouraged me to find something else. I’m working on my resume, but I’m curious to hear from other people who did admin type jobs how they got out of it. I’ve heard about the “Pink collar ghetto”. I have a bachelor’s degree in English and my previous job was a legal proofreader at a law firm. I’m kinda open to any type of job I’m qualified for, but would love something communication /editing/writing based. What worked for you to get employers to not just see you as an admin?

    2. CareerCat*

      I’m an executive assistant at a global management consulting firm and have taken every opportunity to diversify my skillset and resume while in this position – becoming the EA training coordinator for the Americas region, leading local employee resource groups, serving on and chairing local community involvement committees, offering to help with recruiting and marketing events, and anything else that has come along that sounded remotely interesting or outside the normal EA box.

      It’s a lot, but it has also set me up to move into a role, either in my current organization or a different one, in event planning, learning, inclusion & diversity…

      But also, it may be worth it to find a different EA job where you’re not working for a horrible person. It can be an enjoyable job if you find the right boss(es) and culture fit. Even if you continue to work on finding something besides an administrative position in the future, it could make your life much better until that happens. Good luck!

    3. Sparkles69*

      I feel like it depends on what field you’re currently working in, but I am someone who started as an admin assistant/office manager, and turned that job into writing for media and developing social media strategy for the same company. If the company is one that does other work you find interesting, or the team you assist is doing projects you could potentially work on, it’s not out of order to maybe sit in on a meeting here or there for informational purposes, to maybe view materials related to the project, or past projects, or even talk to someone on the team that does something you find vaguely interesting. The best way to move from admin to a role that is doing more “hands-on” project-related work, is to start small, ask a lot of questions, and talk to as many people as possible about what they’re doing, what the project entails, and try to relate that back to your own experience and educational background. You could potentially do some freelance work as a copy editor, there are a lot of work from home/part time jobs that involve proofreading or copy editing that would add experience you could potentially take into a different career field.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      You might be able to move into something more digital communications aligned by adding some additional technical skills to your toolbox.

      There is always a need for content: written and graphic. Learning more about SEO/SEM, online analytics, and social media (or adding some graphics skills if you’re creatively bent) could place you in entry-roles like: Communications Assistant, Marketing Admin/Associate, Content Creator/Manager, etc., as a first step towards transitioning over to either the Marketing side or PR/communication side of business. Fortunately, you can learn many of these tech skills on the side and they won’t require another degree.

      I have seen a few “admins” transition to roles managing social media, writing/deploying email marketing (demand gen), public relations, internal communications, event coordination, and writing online content such as blogs, articles, and website copy. Usually, they start by taking on some additional duties while they’re still an admin if their manager or company will allow it. I have “borrowed” admins to help with some marketing duties on occasion. It doesn’t hurt to cultivate the managers on the Marketing team if you’re able and willing to pitch-in on some entry-level tasks.

      Look up some job titles and requirements because this is a constantly changing field. AI bots are even beginning to take over creative human tasks like writing online content so aim to have longevity by seeking to learn to ‘manage the process’ versus one specific thing like writing content alone.

  29. Scared of losing my bonus*

    Things are changing. We have a busy season where we work 60 + hours a week but I was promoted to a new role where things are changing and I may not be required to work the extra hours. 

    That sounds nice and all but everyone who works during busy season gets a PTO bonus. I’m now worried that if I and my team don’t work during the busy season, we wont’ be eligible for any bonuses. 

    There have been talks about things changing but no announcements have been made and no one will say anything for sure. I’m a manager but management discussions are reserved for the big function, not the other managers. Our HR is…meh. I’ve tried to talk to my boss about it but things have been so busy. I feel liek I get shut down every time I try to ask what direction we’re going in.

    I’d say I had a great relationship with my boss but things have been so busy. 

    I’m not sure if I need advice, commisseration or just venting. But I needed to write my thoughts out. 

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I mean, it makes sense that only people who work extra would get the bonus. Can you volunteer for the extra work?

      1. Scared of losing my bonus*

        but now essentially I’ve taken a paycut to become a manager. the bonus PTO was part of everyones compensation because historically everyone at all levels works the extra hours during busy season.

      1. Scared of losing my bonus*

        At that time, it was understood that everyone who works here would work the extra hours. It’s what I’m used to, and I had no problem with it-nor did my team. But everyone has performed so well, that we don’t anticipate having such a backlog of work in that busy season as previously expected. The pay structure changing is relatively recent and one I did not see coming at all.

  30. Strawberry Jammy*

    Story time!

    back when I began my career I was hired as an IT help desk analyst at a multinational through an outsourcing company. I learned the job quickly, my coworkers and bosses all liked me, the quality of the work I delivered was superb, and when the multinational hired a few of their outsourced employees my boss told me that the only reason I wasn’t hired was because they had a limited amount of vacancies and other outsourced employees had been promised this opportunity for a lot longer (I had coworkers who’d been working for them as an outsourced employee for seven years!), but he promised me I’d be hired next time – alas, next time never came. I ended up staying there for three years, and throughout this time I didn’t get a single raise or growth opportunity; a couple of times there were hints of lateral moves to different departments, but nothing came to fruition. my company eventually cut ties with the multinational, and the outsourcing company who was taking its place offered to hire me for the same job I was doing if I took a 20% pay cut. no, thank you.

    fast forward to now, over four years after I left; one of my coworkers was promoted to team leader, and my old team leader is now manager of the help desk department. apparently they need to hire a new help desk analyst, and they thought about me! me, who now has a total of seven years of customer support experience! they want me to go back and do the same job I was doing back when I began my career, AND they wanted to offer me the same salary as back then, with the same 20% cut. uh, no thank you??? I felt like this was a slap to the face. I’ve been looking at team leader and supervisor roles and would not like to go back to do what I was doing when I started my career; you’d think that was a bit obvious given my resume and experience!

    I was flattered that they thought of me and had good memories of me and my work, but I was a bit offended that they wanted to hire me for such a low level job at this point in my career. am I right to think like this?

    1. College Career Counselor*

      Yes. You can do better–for whatever it’s worth, in their minds they’ve got you stuck in your old role at their (-20%) salary. You can decide whether you want to push back and negotiate and see how badly they want you. Or you can write them off as not worth the time.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Do they know all of this, though? Do they know you’re looking at higher level roles? Or did they just say “hey, we need a help desk analyst, it would be cool if Jammy was still interested?”

    4. Troutwaxer*

      You are right to think this. Since you are apparently well-thought-of in that particular organization and you’d like them to think kindly of you, I’d think a reply along the lines of “Hi Joe, it’s nice you thought of me, but you’re offering me 20 percent less than I was being paid four years ago, and I’ve done nothing but grow as an IT person since I left our mutual workplace. I know you’ve probably got all the usual budget woes to deal with, but wouldn’t be interested in returning unless I get a much better offer.”

      1. Ama*

        I think you could even add, “in my next career move I’m hoping to move into team lead or supervisory roles, so going back to my old job isn’t something I’m interested in.”

    5. Witchy Human*

      Their offer is ridiculous, but it may be a situation to (sort of) give them the benefit of the doubt, in that this could be stupidity rather than disrespect.

    6. CAA*

      It’s more likely that they’re oblivious than that they’re trying to offend you. You could just say something like “Thanks for thinking of me and I’d love to work with you again; but I’m actually looking for Team Leader and Supervisor roles at this point in my career. If you hear of any open positions of that type, please do keep me in mind.” That’ll probably wake them up and make them realize that their recollections of you had been frozen in time while you have moved on with life.

      1. Garland Not Andrews*

        This is good. It sounds a bit like older siblings who still see you as the kid you were when they left home. They didn’t see you grow up, so still think of you as a not grown up.

        I agree that it is likely more oblivious than actually insulting. Just let them know that you are not the “kid” anymore and would welcome overtures for a more appropriate job.

    7. Mama Bear*

      Insulting, yes. However, I would just thank them for thinking of you and say that you are currently only seeking supervisory roles, but you wish them the best of luck with their search.

      And, honestly, would you want to be back there? Sounds like you did well to move on.

    8. Qwerty*

      They remember you from when they worked with you. Odds are that you are frozen in their minds as the great analyst they used to work with and would love to have on their team again. Unless you are still close with them, they probably did not do the math and realize that you are interested in team lead positions. If you title hasn’t really changed since then, that also hides

      I recommend politely (or cheerfully if you can manage it) thanking them for thinking of you and letting them know that you are only interested in more senior positions. It doesn’t sound like they have one of those available, but that way they have you in mind if team lead position opens up or can recommend you to a friend who is looking for that type of role. They probably had no intention of offending you and just didn’t add up how much time has passed. Old contacts reach out to me all of the time and their response when they find out that I’m a manager now is usually “Darn! That makes sense. I wish I had a manager position open for you”

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Yes you’re right to think like this. You’ve moved on and increased your skills and are a higher level now.

      Sometimes I get people asking me if I’m interested in design jobs. Like, um no, because they’re half the salary I make now! Just say ‘thanks for thinking of me’ but not interested, and don’t feel bad!

  31. Anoymer*

    Are my expectations off base?

    I applied for an internal role, got a response within a day that the recruiter approved my app and to expect an interview within a 3-5 business days.

    At that point I let my boss know since it is internal and they have been playing the “but what if you leave?” Card to deny me oppurtunities.

    Meanwhile it was radio silence from the other role. There was some restructuring and a new manager was put in charge of the team. I had worked with the new manager a few times and I definitely went above and beyond for him in the past.

    I ran into him in person while I was helping his team on some reports and asked if he had an ETA. He blew me off and seemed pretty irritated I had asked, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt because restructures are stressful. I let him know my boss was hesitant to put me on projects with this application out there and to let me know once there was a timeline so I could relay that to my boss.

    Now it’s months later, I reached out for the second time over a week ago asking if there was a timeline for the role. (Ive noticed the role is no longer posted but I have not been rejected). He did not bother to respond.

    I’m pretty irritated tbh. My own boss is hesitant to give me opps and I would have never told him if I hadn’t got that email that an interview was imminent. I also think it’s really rude that they have left me hanging like this as an internal candidate.

    So is this rude or am I off base?
    I’m considering withdrawing, if my new boss has that little respect for me and is leaving me in limbo while knowing how my current boss is reacting I’m not sure I want to work for him.

      1. Anoymer*

        It’s not likely it was cancelled. I would have gotten an automatic rejection. It’s not likely it was put on hold. Think the Jr role is on hold why they focus on higher the Sr role.

    2. I'm that person*

      It’s time to look for opportunities outside of the company and really leave. If you had a good boss they would have supported you not shot you down. In the last month we have had a couple of moves like this in my department and it both cases the manager has been supportive.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Perhaps you can touch base with the recruiter or HR to find out what is up. But it’s as Alison says, you don’t have a job until you actually have the job. Keep going, look outside your company and see what is around.

  32. Pieska Boryska*

    I have a second-round phone interview in a couple hours and could use some advice on screening for dysfunction.

    A few things seemed off during the initial phone screen and the Glassdoor reviews are dismal. The recruiter told me that there is no salary range for this position because they’re publicly traded and couldn’t be competitive if they had a range. He also hinted that my salary requirement was too high, without coming right out and saying it, but considering that my minimum is very low for this kind of work- any lower would be below market rate even with awesome benefits- and many Glassdoor reviews mention favoritism and pay disparities, that worries me. The first few minutes of the phone screen was very salesy, talking about how lucky I was to be chosen out of hundreds of applications (this is not a competitive field) and the great perks like free food in the breakroom. A consistent theme in the reviews was micromanagement, 12 hour days, poor communication, and overselling to the clients with the analysts left holding the bag. But, this employer has multiple locations, so I don’t know if this applies to where I’d be working. And where I am now was extremely toxic 5 years ago but it’s totally fine now. So I don’t want to write this place off, but I’m definitely proceeding with caution.

    I know Alison had a post recently about vetting companies, but I feel like I’d need to go farther for this one. Is there any way I can ask things like how many hours it’s typical to work, whether he requires time sheets (for salaried employees), or how involved he is once a new employee is up to speed? Any advice would be appreciated. TIA!

    1. Lily Rowan*

      All of that sounds terrible! I sincerely doubt that no publicly traded companies post salary ranges. I think you can just ask all of those questions (although I’m not sure of the relevance of the time sheet one?)

      1. Pieska Boryska*

        One of the GD reviews mentioned being required to submit detailed time sheets even though they were exempt. I thought that might be a concrete indicator of micromanagement.

        1. ArtK*

          Depends on whether the exempt folks are working on billable contracts. Detailed accounting is very common when you have that. They need to know how much time is being spent on what contract so that it can be billed properly. I don’t know if it still happens this way, but some friends who worked for defense contractors had to record every 15 minutes.

          1. Mama Bear*

            This. I might bill to 5 different contracts a day as my tasks shift around. If there are contracts, they may be required to not only bill to those charge numbers, but bill in small (like 10th of an hour) increments, even. But if the position is all overhead, not so much.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “What does a typical work day/ work week look like for this position?”
      “Are there any seasons when the work picks up/drops off? How does the team deal with changes of workload?”
      “How are expectations set and managed?”

    3. WellRed*

      I ask this sincerely: Why are you ignoring the red flags waving wildly at you? Those reviews are pretty damning, they give you a BS reason about salary range, the salesy pitch and finally (this may be just me) places that offer perks like free food and yoga usually are low paying sweatshops, not something to entice a candidate.

      1. Pieska Boryska*

        I want to use this as a learning experience. Not just for interview practice, but low-stakes practice at asking these kinds of delicate screening questions in the future, when I think an employer is probably fine but I want to do due diligence. I don’t think there’s anything that could convince me to take this job if it’s offered, no worries. :)

    4. ArtK*

      What is this “publicly traded so can’t be competitive with a range” BS? Public/private has absolutely nothing to do with it, unless you’re interviewing for a C suite or corporate officer job. That would be a major NOPE for me. What they are telling you is that they aren’t competitive and they know it.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Exactly! They’re basically saying the job wouldn’t attract any candidates if they knew up front what it paid, which is clearly not going to be competitive, and then confirmed it by saying your low-market range is too high.

        Time sheets aren’t necessarily a red flag, but reports of favoritism, pay gaps, 12 hour days, and the best perks they could mention include free break room food (and not, say, top level health plans) definitely are.

        If you interview, please report back!

        1. Pieska Boryska*

          The phone interview was surprisingly normal. The manager turned out to be the grandboss, so I couldn’t get into managing style much, but he did mention quality control and peer review as part of a day in the life (the work is medical-adjacent), so it’s possible some close oversight is justified. The team works with different clients, so it could also be that the time sheets are for the reasons pp mentioned above. Still, I’m considering this a superfund site without extensive evidence otherwise. The work sounds awesome but not worth the risk.

    5. Pennalynn Lott*

      I work for a Fortune 1 company, i.e., a global publicly-traded company, and we definitely have salary ranges for each position!

  33. K.H. Wolf*

    How do you know when to go to your manager when you have a lot of small issues with a problem employee? How do you evaluate what is a small issue and what is a larger issue, when all the issues are interpersonal?

    I have been working at this small organization for 9 months, and this is my first post-college job as an accountant. My senior colleague, who reviews some of my work but does not otherwise supervise me, will be referred to as Anne. My manager will be referred to as Bob.

    First impressions of Anne were okay, though she had a mildly unpleasant form of ‘joking,’ where she would insult or complain about another coworker and then laugh. It all came to a head at the year-end inventory, which was all-hands regardless of normal responsibility. I was assigned to lead the inventory, and Anne was a normal counter. She spent the whole time (4 hours) complaining. Loudly, and personally, about how I was not doing any ‘real’ work. (She also did fewer items than anyone else, by half.)

    Then, a few months later, she yelled to Bob about me, loudly, where I could hear (for ten minutes). Later that same day, she yelled to an unknown coworker about me (for five minutes). I met with Bob the following day, and he said she would be disciplined. He also said that she was in the habit of having a yelling fit once a month, but that this was the first time it was directed at a person.

    Ever since, I have been documenting my interactions with her. The problem is, I hate Anne. A lot. So I’m not sure what things I should report to Bob and what things are BEC. Are the nasty not-jokes reportable? Only if they happen to me, or if should I report them if they are directed at others? She insulted me and my fellow accountant publicly during a team meeting. Bob was there, though? She’s weirdly intent on making things out to be my fault, even when we’ve discussed the issue at length. (3 discussion on one issue we had also discussed a few months before. She insisted that the issue was different despite the fact that the alternate possibility was the wrong amount and was a decrease instead of an increase.) She physically bumped into me at a different team meeting, twice but not hard. She told me there was an immaterial issue with a reconciliation and asked me to fix it anyway, fair enough; but she also said she knew what the issue was and didn’t tell me what it was. (My partner was shocked and asked if I had cc’d Bob.)

    What do you think?

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      Focus on patterns of behavior that affect the work. As far as BEC stuff is concerned, unless she’s breaking some law/rule/company policy (discrimination, etc), leave that out of it.

      1. K.H. Wolf*

        Thanks for the response, Jedi Squirrel.

        I guess my problem is understanding what counts as affecting the work. Anne yelling at me where I can hear doesn’t technically affect the work except as it affects my ability to concentrate, but Bob specifically told me that I was right to bring it to his attention. If that’s the standard, then all of this stuff counts, but I’m pretty sure some of it is stuff a manager wouldn’t want to hear about. I really don’t have the experience to differentiate, though. I thought the last part about the known issue she didn’t disclose was pretty tame and BEC, but when I told my partner about it at home to vent, he was genuinely shocked and thought that it merited a meeting with Bob all on its own.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          If you have a good relationship with Bob, I think you can say explicitly, “I’m not sure what level of issue warrants your attention, but here are these four things that have happened with Anne that make it difficult for me to work with her.” And then really listen to his response. As a manager, I would be glad to talk that through with a new employee, but there might be things that don’t call for intervention (or that I don’t think are worth intervening on).

          1. K.H. Wolf*

            Thanks, Lily. I think this is really helpful advice for framing the discussion. I do think Bob is a very good manager overall, so I’m pretty confident he’ll handle it respectfully. I just didn’t want to bother him if this was entirely BEC level, but this framing makes me feel a lot better about it.

            1. Lily Rowan*

              Part of it could be helping set your expectations, too — so it’s not about “getting Anne in trouble” or whatever, more about your own ongoing development. Then if Bob thinks any of it is worth pursuing, he has all the information!

              Good luck.

        2. Mouse*

          Why not ask Bob for guidance? If he’s reasonable, it shouldn’t be a big deal to let him know you’re not sure and get his take on what he does or doesn’t need to hear about.

        3. Jedi Squirrel*

          If she is creating an environment in which you find it difficult to concentrate and get work done, that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

    2. LadyTesla*

      First off, those are *not* small instances. Those are major.

      You have a senior, experienced team member who is unable to communicate with you and is not keeping you in the loop. you need to raise this issue. In addition, part of the job is learning how to play well with others, even if those others you don’t like. In addition, this is a reflection on Bob as a manager for not reacting to your needs. Some may argue that Bob might be privately discussing it. However, that is clearly not making a dent.

      Focus on how it effects work. I’d say, “Bob, I’m having trouble making sure I’m in the loop with Anne. We’re having trouble clicking, and it’s becoming a major issue with communication. In example x, y, and z, there were issues and it caused [impact on timeline or impact on project risk or client relationship]. I need a action plan to make sure I can do my job effectively. What can we change to make this happen?”

      Based on what you’ve said, Bob is going to make a lot of words, but do little. You still need this conversation because then you go to HR head, or another manager you trust, and say. “I’m having these major issues that is effecting work. Bob is unable to support me. I asked him for a plan, and only happened. I am unable to do my job in this environment. What can we change?”

      2. Quinalla*

        Agreed, all of this is a big deal. The bumping at the team meeting, depends how that went down and honestly, she could easily dismiss that one so it might not be worth bringing up, but I would definitely say something in the moment if it happens again like “Woah, careful, you ran into me!” but the rest I’d bring to your manager immediately. And then when possible (maybe you can’t at a client meeting for example) start calling out things in the moment or email your boss right away after.

        And yes, frame everything as how it relates to work so you come off looking utmost professional. Like when she withheld the mistake she found from you, bring that up as wasting company time when she could have just told you the problem so you could fix it immediately. Any yelling is just unprofessional in general, but if she is flinging personal insults!

        I do hope your manager will step up, but it doesn’t sound promising, but maybe he’s doing things behind the scenes you aren’t seeing?

    3. CAA*

      I agree that you should meet with Bob and discuss the issues with Anne, but I will also caution you not to bring or mention the documentation you’ve been keeping of your interactions. As you describe them, these are not illegal acts of discrimination or harrassment and collecting documentation on her is likely to make you come across as the difficult one. I know lots of people will tell you to “document everything she does”, but in real life that is almost never useful and it can easily backfire.

      Start out your conversation with Bob with the fact that you’re having difficulty working with Anne in a productive way and you’d like to discuss some strategies for handling some problems that you’ve run across.
      – She insulted you and another accountant during a team meeting and Bob did not shut her down. Ask Bob does that mean he agrees with her? If not, what should you do in the future if she repeats that behavior in front of him?
      – The issue that she brought up repeatedly while insisting that it was x when you had already explained y. (Sorry, I’m not really following the thing about wrong amounts and decreases vs increases.) Ask Bob how does he want you to handle this type of interaction in the future? Would he prefer that you come to him for assistance as soon as she brings it up for the second time?
      – She asked you to fix something where she knew what the problem was but she withheld the details so you had to go on a scavenger hunt to figure it out for yourself. This is unproductive and unprofessional behavior. You’re not assking Bob anything about this item, just explaining what happened, because as your partner noted, sabotage happening within his department is something he should know about. (I’m guessing she may explain this as training you to be more detail oriented, but as a manager, I’d certainly want to know if one of my employees thought this was an appropriate thing to do.)

      Leave out all the other items on your list. Stay calm, dispassionate and professional during this conversation.

      Also, do not expect that Bob will be able to fundamentally change Anne’s behavior or personality. You can make him aware of these issues, and things may improve, but she’s never going to be a pleasure to work with. You may need to think of this as a starter job where you stick it out for one to two years and then move on.

    4. Never Been There, Never Done That*

      I know this isn’t what you want to hear but please keep it in the back of your mind: Find another job.
      This chick is using you as a punching bag verbally and now physically because she can. I don’t know what her deal is (personality disorder much?!) but you are her current target and she has the entire office cowed. She (of course) knows you are new to the field and probably a very nice person. She is neither and she will keep using you as she sees fit. What Bob says he will or won’t do is bullshit. He’s not sticking up for you when you need it most and that’s his freaking job. End of story. I wouldn’t last one week and you have lasted nine months so hat’s off to you. Please, please, please know that normal offices don’t work this way and you should, under NO circumstances, be yelled, bullied, touched or tormented by this bitch on wheels. You DESERVE better.

      1. valentine*

        He’s not sticking up for you when you need it most and that’s his freaking job. End of story.
        This is the bottom line. Bob is the real problem. He let her yell at him and, even if you tried yelling to get your way, I suspect this is the kind of place where, suddenly, it would be possible to discipline and fire someone. (If only because Bob knows you won’t get physical.) He knows she’s harassing you and spends entirely too much time griping about you, yet he allows it. If you can leave, go. Don’t worry about staying a year or whatever. It’s okay to move house when the place is ablaze.

        The letter where OP bit her colleague and stomped on his foot might help you because Anne is doing a similar kind of infuriating juvenile routine.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Ya know the interesting thing about people like this is if you limit yourself to commenting on behaviors that break company rules, break laws or ethics and behaviors that impact your work that can be enough stuff right there to keep a person very busy. And the listening people will tend to fill in their own gaps, people know if a person is doing a, b and c then it’s reasonable to assume they also have behavior d and e.

      This becomes your baseline to work off of so you can corral all. the. things. wrong here. You also have basis with the previous conversation about her animosity toward you. So that is another entry point for you.

      I will suggest one thing and this is very hard so if you opt out, I don’t blame you. Try to dial back the hate. Your upset with her is totally fair and totally understandable. But if she senses or infers the anger coming off of you that is just going to be gas on her fire. This is hard stuff so if you skip this part, I DO understand why. Sometimes I skip it also. You do have an advantage that your boss seems to understand something is wrong here. The toughest times I have had is when the boss does not get that there is even a problem.

      I wanna talk about the bumping you thing. There’s a lot you can do with that. One thought that crosses my mind is to say very loudly, “Oh you bumped into me are you alright?”. For under the table kickers, I have been known to say, “Oh were my feet in your way, excuse me, I will move over a tad.” Usually open comments like this stop the behavior cold. Be sure to sound sincere.

  34. Flashy Coworker Screwed Me Over*

    So, I had a coworker that I struggled to work with because she was quite boastful about how great she was, and often seemingly-accidentally seemed to be putting me down by remarking how much faster she got things done, how she had really cleaned house since starting, etc. She didn’t actually end up staying at this job very long before she quit to do something else, but she did start a bunch of new processes in the time she was here – then left half way through, and they all got dumped into my lap. Now I’m finding that many things were structured entirely wrong. I often wondered how she managed to teach herself things so quickly – well, it turns out that she made a lot of stuff up on the fly, without understanding the consequences in the database. I have raised this but my boss doesn’t really “get it.” I look crappy now because things I’m trying to do don’t work right (because the data isn’t in the system correctly). I don’t want to get this person in trouble because I realize these errors were made in good faith, and our training was abysmal – we have a strong “figure it out” culture that drives me nuts – but I am grinding my teeth every day wishing I could pop her bubble about how amazing she is. I’m sure she uses her time here as an example of how she was super amazing and great in all her job interviews, and my boss will probably give her a great reference.

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      I don’t want to get this person in trouble because I realize these errors were made in good faith, and our training was abysmal – we have a strong “figure it out” culture that drives me nuts – but I am grinding my teeth every day wishing I could pop her bubble about how amazing she is.

      There’s no “getting her in trouble”. She doesn’t work there anymore. You should lay this all out with your boss, that your coworker messed up a lot of things she didn’t understand and now the mess has to be cleaned up.

      We had an employee like that and I found out after she left that I wasn’t the only one who was very very aware of how she was all talk and no substance. I spent four months cleaning up just one of her messes after she left.

      2. Flashy Coworker Screwed Me Over*

        For whatever reason, I am specifically fixated on emailing this coworker and being like, “just so you know, I am still cleaning up the giant mess you left in the database and nothing has worked correctly since you left.” I’m not saying that it’s healthy or that this is a good thing for me to focus on.

        1. no kind of atmosphere*

          Don’t do it. tl;dr my story is a little longer and keeps going after she left. At which point, she went out of her way to screw me over AGAIN, all while trying to be “helpful” and maintain networking contacts and all that. Instead it made all of us wish she’d just cut the cord entirely.

          Focus instead on the ways karma may bite her in the future when she’s in a place with more oversight and she tries to pull the same bulshit on them.

          1. Flashy Coworker Screwed Me Over**

            Yeah, that’s what I have to tell myself. I need to unfollow her on social media so that I’m not taunted by how much better than me she seems to be doing. I actually know it wasn’t entirely her fault, we have a clunky crappy system and not much training, it just sucks that all the benefit goes to her (she gets the experience on her resume and a great reference) while all the downside falls to me (I still have to fix this crap and my boss is pissed that everything is taking longer).

        2. Massive Dynamic*

          Don’t do that, but do give your boss a lot of specifics about what you’ve found in her work and the steps that you are taking to rectify it. Treat this as one large cleanup project that you are spearheading with multiple facets and give your boss regular updates on it. Don’t worry about protecting this former employee.

    2. KevinCantWait*

      When I’ve encountered situations like this in the past, I take the tack of saying “I wanted to let you know that there were errors in XY and Z on the Teapot project. I went ahead and fixed them, but because there were so many, I wanted to make sure you had a heads-up, so you can let me know if you spot any others.”

      Your boss will put two and two together and realize it was your ex-coworker who made mistakes on the project. It also might help to say “Hey, I know that Sheila was doing this project using the ABC method–but I’d been taught to do it this other way, and Bob from the ____ department confirmed that’s how it should be done. Do you want me to keep using Sheila’s method, or should I take the time to convert this data into a more traditional format?” That way, you can make what you DO have usable, without staying after work an extra hour every night or working through your breaks.

      1. Flashy Coworker Screwed Me Over*

        This is like, basic report no longer work, and I’m supposed to pull the report.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          Did Coworker Who Screwed You Over have a different method of pulling the report? Can you ask her how she got the data out? Maybe the report now comes out under a different title or something?

          1. Flashy Coworker Screwed Me Over**

            She had a different way of coding the data which, while it makes sense on the surface, means that actually the database doesn’t know how to classify those fields and they get punted out to a sort of purgatory when the form is saved. So the standard report that I used to pull all the time now returns a bunch of zeros. Maybe she had some gonzo system in mind to get the data back; the world will never know, and tech support says it’s unrecoverable

              1. Flashy Coworker Screwed Me Over**

                Perhaps manually, by downloading and printing about 10,000 pages, then typing the information into each field. While my boss impatiently asks why the report isn’t ready, why am I so slow. I have explained the issue, but it’s boring and technical and she doesn’t get it. I feel it reflects an organizational bias towards “knocking things out” and not being slow like me. I can’t fix my boss, and I am looking for a new job (have been for a while) but I at least dream that Smug Coworker realizes what she did. Alas, the dream will likely end in this comments section.

                1. no kind of atmosphere*

                  De-technical it for your boss: “Flash didn’t enter the data in the right way; she put it into a different place. That means when I pull the report, the data’s not there for the report to find. To get the data into the right place, we’ll have to re-enter it. Because of the way the database is structured, that data entry will have to be done manually and it will take X time.”

                3. Not So NewReader*

                  Agreeing with NKOA.

                  “Well, Boss, the data was put in a place that cannot be accessed and used by our system. So now what has to happen is 10k pages of data needs to be printed out and re-entered. I estimate I can do 50 pages* a day on average. It will take me 200 days to fix this problem.”

                  *Whatever figure you choose to use, make sure you put yourself where you have a good chance of succeeding. If you know for a fact that you can only do 20 pages a day then tell her that you can do 18 pages a day. If you have a bad day where the computer is down or you call in sick , etc, there is wiggle room in your estimate so you are not stressed more than you already are.

                  Don’t forget to toss out suggestions but again, chose wisely. You might offer to work some OT or you might offer to show someone so they can help you.

                  Overview- when people don’t seem to be understanding the magnitude/nature of a problem start putting numerical values on things and/or doing time estimates. Also offer suggestions to remedy if possible.

                4. Dancing Otter*

                  Talk to another database guru. Manually re-inputting 10K records is unreasonable, let alone 10K pages.
                  It should be possible to (a) download the bad records electronically, edit them and upload them again electronically; or (b) identify the field where the data was placed incorrectly and revalue the proper field with the contents of the incorrect field *within the database*. (I have personally done this in MS SQL Server. You have to be able to identify reliably which records need to be changed, or else put in a validation step to ensure you don’t overwrite records that actually have good data already.)
                  As an alternative, could the report criteria be revised to look at both the correct and the incorrect fields for the values you’re seeking? E.g., if OR(field X, field Y) = criterion, rather than simply if field X = criterion. Or use nested IFs, where if field X is null, then if field Y = criterion, else if field X = criterion.

    3. ArtK*

      This is general advice, not just for your situation: Drop the “I don’t want to get someone in trouble.” This also shows up as “I don’t want them to be fired” and a lot of other ways. If someone has messed up and you have reported how it affected you, they are the one who got themselves in trouble.

      This comes from the admonition we got as kids to not be a “tattletale.” Sadly, that admonition gets used to suppress a lot of valid things. The school that my sons went to had a great rubric to help with this. “Tattling is to get someone in trouble, reporting is to keep someone safe.” In the case you’re talking about you are reporting and not tattling because you are keeping yourself safe.

      1. Flashy Coworker Screwed Me Over**

        I think I framed that badly, but the point is probably that there’s really no benefit to me, or to the current situation, to focus on trying to trash this person personally or professionally. I suspect would actually look worse to my boss if I spent a long time trying to get her to understand that this is Flashy’s fault, versus just impassively fixing the issue.

        1. valentine*

          Plainly saying what she did isn’t trashing her. You’ve gone to the other extreme and are letting your boss think you’re the problem, widening the divide between Flashy and you. Due to her boasting, I don’t think it was a good-faith error, and that you’re giving her too much credit.

          how much better than me she seems to be doing.
          “Seems” is key. Definitely unfollow her, and consider that her posts hold as much weight as her self-assessment regarding the job.

          1. valentine*

            Currently, you’ve assigned yourself to cleanup duty. Your boss needs to know the problem so they can find a solution that makes the best use of your time.

    4. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I know you are trying to be impassive about it, but my worry for you is that this could effect your end of the year (or whenever) performance appraisal. If you don’t tell manager about the problems in a way he understands, all he’ll see is “Non-Flashy is very bad at this job. She needs to be more like Flashy, ” or even “Maybe I should set Flashy standards for Non-Flashy to make sure she gets things done on time”. You need to make sure your boss knows so that you aren’t under the bus at review time (or slated for a Performance Improvement Plan that you don’t need).

      1. Flashy Coworker Screwed Me Over**

        Yeah I think that piece of it is driving me nuts. They’re not going to fire me (I’m the only one who can use the system at all right now) but I have often observed that they value someone like Flashy more than someone slow and steady like me. This outcome is exactly why that is shortsighted but nobody is listening to me, so somehow Flashy is *still* winning, months after she left!

  35. cubiclezirconia*

    I’m currently in law school and applying for jobs, so this issue has been on my mind. My first name is a double name styled with a space and two capital letters, like Mary Sue. This is my legal name, with a few exceptions on official documents where the space had to be omitted for practical reasons (like MarySue or Marysue). People who don’t know me well often call me just Mary and/or assume that Sue is a middle name. I sometimes correct them and sometimes don’t – it’s generally easier to just let the barista to write Mary on my cup, for example. But in more professional settings, what’s the best way to politely correct people without making it awkward? I worked in a professional office before law school, but the team I was on already had a Mary when I was hired, so my coworkers called me Mary Sue right off the bat without much issue.

    My other question is for my email signature. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve sent out an email with my email signature looking like this:

    “Thanks,
    Mary Sue

    Mary Sue Smith
    marysuesmith@lawschool.com”

    And then get a response that starts with, “Hi, Mary,”.

    Would it be appropriate to add a line to my default email signature that says something like “Please note that my first name is Mary Sue.”? Or would that come off as overkill?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      That’s overkill. Just correct them the first time they get it wrong — “Actually, I go by Mary Sue.” That’s it.

    2. Troutwaxer*

      How does Mary-Sue feel to you? That might convey what you need to convey. Then later when everyone is calling you by the right name you can lose the “-“

      1. cubiclezirconia*

        I posted this elsewhere below, but changing my name, including removing the space, going by only part of my name, or adding a dash, are not options I am comfortable with, except when necessary to deal with technological limitations. I identify pretty strongly with my name as it is (there is a sentimental and familial background for my name) and any time I’ve used an alternate version of my name, it has very much felt like someone else’s name.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          The dash would be a temporary measure, dropped once enough people were using you name correctly, but if you don’t like the idea… it’s certainly not a big deal.

      2. SilverA*

        As someone with a hyphenated first name similar to “Mary-Sue” it definitely helps. I actually have the opposite problem, that is my legal full name and I feel like it would be weird for me to write Mary Jones as my email, signature, business cards, etc Say “Mary-Sue Jones.” But my personal presence is Mary. I have actually become sort of apathetic to this at this point, I respond to both and do not correct people.

    3. Nessun*

      Given how little attention people pay in general to email sigs, I’d leave it until the first time they respond, as LadyByTheLake suggested. My first name (just one name, not two like yours) is in my sig AND my email address and people spell it wrong CONSTANTLY, so I assume people just don’t read.

      (It’s a huge pet peeve of mine, but I’ve had to learn to leave it alone. Think Melania versus Melanie – it’s one letter, and people just assume they’ve read it right. But yeah – no point correcting people in advance, they probably won’t even see the line, and if they do, they’ll most likely not take it well.)

    4. Natalie*

      I get emails addressed to “Nicole” all the time. No matter what kind of reminder you put in your signature block, people will get it wrong – if reading something in the signature helped them, they would have just read the name you used. There’s really nothing to do but correct people as it happens.

      1. Rachael with an A*

        I know it’s rude, but sometimes I will intentionally misspell the other person’s name wrong in my response email if they have misspelled my name. It has not prompted anyone to catch their error, though it gives me some personal satisfaction.

        1. Pennalynn Lott*

          I do this too! Only the recipient has noticed and then apologized for misspelling my name. The most common misspelling of my name is to add two consonants. Think: my parents named me Melisa but people write Melissa. So I respond with, “Hi, Josseph!” or the like. They usually get it right away.

          Note: I only do this with people that I’m comfortable joking around with. One of our consultants, whom I’ve never met, emailed me this morning using the double-consonant spelling and I’m fine ignoring it.

    6. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

      I worked with a vendor who’s company’s email setup was LastnameFirstname@company. This caused all kinds of confusion when there were people who had “two first names.” My salesperson was Sally Nancy…or maybe Nancy Sally…to this day I still don’t really know which was her last name. She would never put an email signature on anything and it drove me crazy! If I had to call her for any reason I would just ask the receptionist for Miss Nancy hoping that would cover all the bases.

    7. Argh!*

      Would you feel comfortable going by just one name in your professional life? Since you’re at the beginning of your career, now would be the time to consider it.

      If not, then you should probably consider the audience. If it’s someone you will have a long working life with, then correct them. If its a one-time communication or one-short-project interaction, you can let it go.

      1. cubiclezirconia*

        I appreciate the suggestion and I have tried it in the past, but I’ve honestly never been comfortable with it. The first part of my name, on its own, has always felt very much like someone else’s name and not mine.

    8. Spreadsheets and Books*

      My last name is a semi-common first name (but my first name is not a common last name at all – think something like Annabelle Lily) and it’s astonishing how often I get emails addressed to my last name. When I was job searching like 6 months ago, this must have happened with a solid 80% of recruiters/hiring managers who contacted me.

      Doesn’t matter what your name is, it’s unavoidable for pretty much everyone.

    9. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Don’t take it personally, and be prepared that inadequately designed e-mail and information management systems may force you to use “MarySue Smith” in future.

      A close lawyer friend of mine is in your exact boat, and they’ve found it’s just something they have to roll with. “Rose Anne Jones” becomes “RoseAnne Jones” in the computer. Upon meeting her for the first time, people often call her “Rose” until they are gently corrected or get it by osmosis. Putting a pre-emptive correction in your e-mail signature really won’t come across well. Your colleagues and friends will learn your name and remember it respectfully.

      1. cubiclezirconia*

        I can assure you I’m already well aware that inadequately designed systems can’t handle my name – when I got my first drivers’ license, I had an employee at the motor vehicle department in my state tell me to get my birth certificate changed (I did not). And again, I had a career before attending law school; at the company where I primarily worked, correcting people on my name wasn’t much of a big deal because I worked closely with someone who had a similar name so people were quick to call me the correct name as not to confuse us.

    10. cubiclezirconia*

      I appreciate the suggestions from everyone. I was hoping to get more suggestions from people with similar double names about how they handle correcting people. Changing my name, including removing the space, going by only part of my name, or adding a dash, are not options I am comfortable with, except when necessary to deal with technological limitations. I identify pretty strongly with my name as it is (there is a sentimental and familial background for my name) and any time I’ve used an alternate version of my name, it has very much felt like someone else’s name.

      1. Avasarala*

        Someone in my company has a name like you and one of our new hires addressed her in an email as “Mary.” I said, “Hey btw, it’s Mary Sue, that’s her full first name.” “Oh,” she said, embarrassed. “OK!” Done.

        Having two first names is such a common thing that people should be able to wrap their heads around it and refer to you correctly. My last name has “invalid characters” in it that computers often reject and I send passive-aggressive emails to IT people all the time: “This is a really common phenomenon (ie having a name with a space, with many characters, an apostrophe/hyphen, etc.) that I would expect a company servicing a diverse workforce to be able to handle. Please look for a workaround so that you can display my name correctly.” And if they push back, drop “I’m disappointed”.

    11. Kesnit*

      Using middle initials (and sometimes middle names) is common in law (at least where I practice). All the attorneys sign e-mails Firstname MiddleInitial Lastname, including the attorney who has two middle names. (It looks like Firstname M. I. Lastname)

      So you may want to include your middle initial in your e-mail. Something along the lines of Mary Sue I. Zirconia. That makes it clear that “Sue” is more than just a middle name (which is how I would otherwise read your name).

        1. EggEgg*

          I kind of like this solution, actually.

          Also, I hear you about not feeling a connection to different names–I have a long first name and went by one (unintuitive) nickname until I was in my early twenties, when I switched to a more intuitive nickname that didn’t end in an -ee sound. I decided to change kind of on a whim, and it felt VERY odd when I started introducing myself that way.

    13. Warm Weighty Wrists*

      On behalf of my dear departed Aunt Mary Ellen and Uncle John Gano, I just want to say solidarity and keep fighting the good fight! I, too, recommend a casual, calm correction the first time, and then continued corrections becoming more firm until they get it. If someone keeps calling you by the incorrect name after multiple corrections, I think it’s fine for that person to feel a bit rebuked and uncomfortable. Naming other people correctly and appropriately is respectful and important!

    14. MK8*

      So I actually asked this question here a few years ago! I just tried the search function to get the link for you, but the actual post isn’t coming up. The name I used in my example was “Maria Theresa”, maybe you can find it yourself!

      To be honest with you, I have ended up adding a hyphen between my two first names. My mom isn’t happy about this, but I only have it on my professional documents and I’ve found that does help. However I’m an American working in a Francophone country and I know it’s much more understood in French to have a “composed name” with a hyphen, while in the US it’s more common to not have the hyphen.

      Another thing that has been helpful is going by my initials, because it both helps reinforce the idea that both parts are my name and also gives coworkers/clients a shorter name to call me by that I actually like, rather than just “Maria”. It depends of course on your name if this would work, in real like my first name shortens to “MK” which works quite well.

      I hope this helps, just know you aren’t alone in this struggle :)

    15. Hamburke*

      My daughter has the opposite problem – fn mn are a common paired name but I didn’t pair them and we use her first name only. Small group of the family insists on calling her fn-variation-mn, gives her embroidered items with that name, and signs her up for things with that name. It bothers her bc it shows that they don’t listen or respect her preference. It hasn’t affected her at work yet since she’s a teen but she was worried applying to her first job. I’ve told her to just put her middle initial if she has to put something.

      My name is common but spelled alternately (not uncommon or made up, just less common). People, including those that I regularly email with, rarely spell it correctly unless they have a name that gets spelled wrong too. I’ve given up correcting people unless it actually matters.

  36. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

    My boss is…intense. She’s so good at her job that she’s been promoted twice in the last year, the latest promotion to COO. She’s also still running my department in addition to overseeing another department’s director PLUS a new director and area. She’s doing about three jobs right now, b/c she is she-woman when it comes to work. She’s very risk-averse and a boss-pleaser. I hear a lot, “Big Boss would be pissed if she saw this and I want to avoid that.”

    I’ve been here and under her supervision for 10 years. I’ve been promoted over the years, currently with a position I’m mostly happy with. I’m 20 minutes from home, have lots of leave and a bit of cache built up over the last 10 years. But I’ve had some bumps in 10 years as well – I’ve screwed up a few times but I’m firmly on the road forward and have been for some time.

    My problem: my boss still scares the shit out of me. I think she’s harder on me than anyone else she supervises. Even the Big Boss isn’t as hard on her direct staff. I’m nervous a lot, I feel like I’m terrible person when I do make a mistake (it happens) and get scolded more than anyone else. I can’t tell if *I* am broken or if the culture is. I’m comfortable with my leave, commute, salary, etc. I’m still growing in my career. I just feel like shit so often I don’t know how to tell if it’s me or them.

    1. just a small town girl*

      Is there any chance she sees you as “myself when I was your age” and is taking the whole “people were tough on me and it got me where I am so I’m gonna be tough on you to get you where you need to be” stance? I don’t know your industry or relationship but I’ve seen this a few times in places where women don’t typically rise to power.

      Do you have any kind of non-work issues with anxiety? Because a bad toxic job warped me and messed me up so bad I had to get on anxiety medication even though I’d not had anxiety issue since I was a child. So if you have even some kind of lurking untreated anxiety it could be flaring up and might be worth looking into.

      1. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

        Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Firstly, lots of issues with anxiety and depression and am on medication for it. Probably need to add something else to the mix, and I still have a bit of PTSD from my last terrible work environment.
        I’m not sure if it’s that she sees herself, but it’s some flavor of that. I think she remembers my sins of the past more keenly than I would prefer.

    2. Faith*

      Are you me? I’m in a very similar position where I’m happy with everything about my current job and my general career path. But my boss is a constant source of anxiety for me for the very same reason. The way I’m dealing with it is by firmly keeping in my head that “it’s not me, it’s her” and by trying to leave work related stress at work and not allowing it to poison the rest of my time. Sufficient onto the day is the evil thereof.

      1. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

        Here with you in solidarity, sister. I need to apply that mantra, rinse, repeat. Thank you and hang in there!

    3. LadyTesla*

      There’s a good book, Culture by Design, that is really good that you may like. It’s all about how the business deals with the culture, and that it actually needs to be designed.

      I recognize some of the things you mentioned in me. Let me ask you a few things:
      – When someone says they have feedback for you do you say “no worries”, or “oh shit, here it goes”?
      – If you’re in a building, and a coworker you know from out of town does a quick fly by but skips your desk, do you feel like it’s no big deal, or does it feel a little personal that they didn’t wave at you?
      – Do you grade the value of your work based on how others feel about it, or the cold hard data?

      As someone with anxiety, a lot of these ideas come up heavily for me. I feel like the opinions of others = the quality of job that I do. Meaning I don’t know if I do a good job until others review it. It makes mistakes very personal, and feel very harsh.

      What you have to do is realize that the quality of your work is defined by the things you do, e.g. have control over. If you don’t have control over it, then you cannot use it to grade your work. Example: I did 90% correct on a spreadsheet, but 10% errors were commented on by my boss solely. I feel like I do a bad job because of that comment. However, I controlled that other 90%. In reality, you probably did a good job, but you focus on that 10%.

      This is a key anxiety concept, “my value = other’s opinions”. It takes ages to get out of (I’m still in it!!!!). But, once you see it, it helps.

      1. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

        I can answer yes or no to those questions depending on the day. I like the idea of relying on cold data. I do place a lot of stock in what people think, which is something to work on.

        I’m also having an issue currently b/c I think she’s making a bigger deal out of something (not the first time) by saying the Big Boss would be mad when the data say it’s 98.5% okay.

        Thanks for this! Really appreciate it!

      2. Watermelon M*

        Ooh this is good. But what if your job doesn’t have that great of numerical or solid outcomes that you can judge your work by? For instance, part of my job is keeping other people happy in a sense and facilitating meetings well. We have this feedback system based on people’s comments on your attitude and friendliness. In this job, it’s so hard to not take into account peoples opinions as value.

        1. LadyTesla*

          If your job doesn’t have a solid measurable outcome of success, then that brings up the question of “how does your boss know you’re doing a good job? What’s in the job description?”. It seems like the role isn’t setup for success.

          Now, if the job has only say one or two measurements, try to find some “symptoms” of it. Say it’s one big sale, maybe measure the number of quality conversations up to that sale with the key client, or similar.

          But you’re asking a bigger question. “How do I grade my work if my work is the opinions of others?”. Then it becomes “attempts at altering”. Say you’re a marketing person, and your job is to get people to engage on social media, it’s the number of methods, attempts, and strategies you applied to get that feedback.

      3. EggEgg*

        Maybe this is industry specific, but I kind of disagree with this. If I were to send something up to my boss or out to a partner that was only 90% correct, I would be extremely concerned about the quality of my work.

    4. lasslisa*

      Have you ever asked her how she feels about your work overall? If you’re usually a high performer, she may be thinking you already know it and that she just needs to tell you what would “make it perfect”. Or she may be trying to get you to change something, or thinking you should do things like she does them (even if your outcomes are fine as is). Pushing on this question may help you get away from thinking the latest critical comment is the summary of your entire worth.

      1. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

        she’s definitely pushing me to do things the way she does. Independently, I’ve had two other colleagues that she’s had more direct contact with lately come to me and ask, “how do you deal with this?” One of those colleagues also thinks I should talk to the Big Boss but I’m terrified to do that b/c I feel like MY boss will be pissed.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          To some degree we have to do things the way the boss does. I am not sure how much of a problem this is for you. If it’s illegal, unethical or against company policies, start pulling in other people to help you sort this. If you think you could end up arrested tomorrow, then quit today. No job is worth going to jail over.

          Your boss will be pissed. So you are in misery just to keep her from getting ticked? But she is already ticked/snippy/etc. She is stretched too thin, I will say that. I can’t promise you I would be a pleasant person in her shoes. I hope so, but I dunno. Since you are hesitant here, I’d suggest that you bring your other two colleagues with you to speak to the big boss. Start with couching it as, “I think my boss is stretched to thin and some things have been happening that others might want to be aware of.” Here instead of blaming the boss directly, you are placing the blame on being stretched too thin. This will help to make you look more like a thinking person and less like a complainer. You are also subtly offering a solution to the problem.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I feel like she sees you as the “mini-me” of herself and scoldings happen when you do something that’s outside of what she would do. She is overstretched and if only she had a clone of herself (but of course people aren’t clones of others, but sometimes we wish they were). Just a thought.

  37. just a small town girl*

    I’m really lucky. I’m able to go to school part time with a day class and my job is being flexible and letting me work my 40h around the class schedule. Only downside is that next year I’m going to be traveling for work about 20 days in the spring.

    My professors are working with me but I’m going to need a new laptop because my ancient 17in 200lb beast is not gonna work with how much I’ll be moving around. I mentioned it offhand to my boss when we were discussing Black Friday sales and she was like “woah wait, you should not be buying a new laptop for this! you wouldn’t need a new one if you weren’t traveling for WORK stuff….let me see if you can use my surface for school and work while we’re traveling and I’ll use my laptop.”

    She said she was going to talk to my grandboss and one of the other directors about it to make sure it was OK, and that was Tuesday when they were out of the office. I really, really don’t want to be a nag since this is above and beyond and very nice of her to offer, but I really need to know before Black Friday gets here so I can know if I should go ahead and get something then. How should I go about politely asking her if she’s checked if this is okay yet? And how long should I wait to follow up and ask about it? She’s very, very busy so I don’t know if she’s already forgotten about it.

    1. AnOtterMouse*

      I’d say check back on Monday of next week- this gives time for a) her to follow up with GrandBoss and Director and time for them to respond, or b) time for you to scout out the sales for Black Friday and make some plans if you need to

    2. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

      Agree with OtterMouse. Try again Monday and even tell her you don’t want to be a pest. And then try once more.

    3. Never Been There, Never Done That*

      I would mention it to her in a light oh-by-the-way tone, “Oh, by the way, I was looking at flyers for the Black Friday sales. Did you ever hear back from so-and-so? I’m kinda planning on how I’m going to spend my money and wanted to check in with you first.”
      Leave it at that.

  38. The Meow*

    During an interview, what is a professional way of calling out organizations with no POC on their executive level? I want to convey the message of: “Your entire executive team is made of white men (or maybe +1 white woman). That gives me concerns as a woman of colour about my professional growth opportunities. Do you recognize this lack of diversity as a problem and what are you doing about it?”

    1. Okay*

      It’s only a problem if it’s intentional and disproportionate to the local population. My company of 140 has only 2 black employees. Is this because we’re racist? No, it’s because we’re in the Midwest.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I disagree that it’s only a problem if it’s intentional. Demographics are one thing, but it’s unfortunately very easy for people to hire and promote in a discriminatory way without explicitly setting out to do so. There’s well documented evidence that managers tend to promote and encourage employees they perceive as being “like them.”

      2. ThatGirl*

        There are plenty of black people in the Midwest. Maybe not in your specific town, but let’s not perpetuate the idea that no POC live in the middle of the country.

        1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

          Seriously. Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City, Indianapolis, Detroit, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, South Bend, Cleveland, Dayton, Toledo, Omaha, etc are all in the Midwest

      3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        What now? I’m in the Midwest and we have more Black women on my team than white men. Let’s not perpetuate this “no Black people in the Midwest” nonsense.

      4. Parenthetically*

        It’s not enough to say “we’re not racist,” and putting a wildly disproportionately white workforce at your company down to being in the Midwest is lazy. In the US, if you’re not actively seeking out employees who are non-white — as in, intentionally finding and removing barriers to diverse hiring, specifically recruiting diverse candidates, going out of your way to ensure that POC are included in your hiring processes, your default setting is going to be white and male. Active anti-racism, not passive “well nobody at my company hates black people so we must not be racist” is what’s required to get to equality.

    2. ThatGirl*

      As much as I think that’s a good question, I think phrasing it that way might sound hostile. Can you maybe ask about diversity initiatives or corporate policies around diversity?

      1. AnonEMoose*

        This…because if nothing else, while sometimes people may appear to be white, they may not be. To be clear, I’m saying this because of a thing that happened in my presence that was pretty embarrassing for the person who assumed and who turned out to be wrong about their identification of at least one person as white.

        I’m being intentionally vague on this, so would not be comfortable going into more detail. But hopefully that’s enough information to understand the basics.

        Asking about diversity initiatives and what the company is doing to avoid/address unconscious bias, maybe?

        1. The Meow*

          If a person “appears to be white” they are likely to have been treated as white by their acquaintances, friends, teachers, principals, colleagues, bosses, professional networks, and strangers. So regardless of their actual racial identity they would not face the same level of discrimination and unconscious bias that a more ‘visible’ POC would face.

          1. AnonEMoose*

            True…but they also may not appreciate erasure of their identity as a POC. And their feelings on that aren’t wrong.

            1. The Meow*

              Acknowledging people get treated a certain way due to their skin colour is not “erasing” their personal identity. Not really sure where you’re going with this.

              1. Avasarala*

                Better not to get into “well you pass as white so you don’t count as diversity” with the executives of a company you’re applying to. Especially when you don’t have to play “guess how many POC” and you can just ask about their diversity initiatives.

    3. Susie Q*

      Is this an interview for a job that you want to get? Because if it is, I most certainly wouldn’t say it. Calling a company out during an interview isn’t going to get you hired.

      1. Witchy Human*

        It would also sound like you’re making the fact that you are a POC relevant to your candidacy, which is a bad idea.

        1. The Meow*

          I disagree with this. My skin colour is not something I can hide. If merely asking the question means HR would view my skin colour as relevant to my candidacy, HR is in the wrong.

        2. Arts Akimbo*

          It’s always relevant to her candidacy, whether she wants it to be or not. Unconscious bias of hiring managers is a very real thing, and not something any POC can just decide to be free of.

      2. Watermelon M*

        But also do you want to work for a company that bristles at you asking about diversity? As a POC, I wouldn’t. Sure, ask it in a way that might get the white folks on the panel to not feel mad, but it’s an important question. If you’re desperate for a job, it’s a slightly different story, but I’ve learned my lesson here.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      I would love to hear that question, but I know a lot of people would bristle. But I have asked someone interviewing me if she really wanted to add another white woman (me) to her team which already seemed to be all white women (in an international nonprofit), and I did get the job. And I did hire a more diverse team while I was there!

      1. The Meow*

        Being able to ask that question directly and not have that affect one’s job search outcome is white privilege.

    5. ElizabethJane*

      It’s a really good question and I wish you could just ask it point blank.

      I’m saying this as a white woman so I know I don’t have the same experiences, but I have asked a similar-ish question. I used to work in the automotive industry which is the poster child for “Good Ol’ Boys Network” and also “European White Men Calling The Shots”. In an interview I was able to ask “The automotive industry in particular is very male dominated. What initiatives does COMPANY have to make sure women are given the same opportunities as men?”

      The company in question was the leader in the industry, so if the industry did something it was almost definitely their fault, but blaming it on the industry as a whole seemed like a softer approach. It was like “*Society* has this problem but *you* are obviously better than the problem, right?”

      Could you phrase it that way? “Tea Pot painting as an industry has been lacking in diversity pretty much since its inception. What sort of initiatives does this company have to help with that?”

      Of course I’d love to say any company that bristles at your question as you wrote it is crappy and you should look for one that is OK with it, but that’s not how job hunting works so we have to play stupid games.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yep, love this phrasing. Approaching it with inclusive language that implies, “Well, of COURSE you want this good thing!” is really smart.

      2. Earthwalker*

        Yes, this, worded as “lack of diversity.” With that in mind you might also ask, “Do you have statistics comparing the diversity of the individual contributors in the company compared to the diversity of managers? A big difference between – satisfactorily broad diversity in individual contributors and much less among the managers – says there’s a glass ceiling. “No we don’t keep those statistics” is a red flag too if it’s a large company. They should know.

    6. Cimorene*

      I think its really variable. I currently work at a major nonprofit and have day after thanksgiving as standard but not xmas eve. Also previously worked in both city and federal govt and did not get either one off, only the recognized federal holidays.

    7. ...*

      It might be hard for the interviewer to speak to that if they are an HR associate, lead, or assistant manager.

  39. Friday Morning Interview*

    Had an in-person interview for a job I really want. Previously there was a phone interview and there is one more final step before hiring. They are interviewing people into next week. Best time to send a thank you email? Monday?

  40. WhatsNext*

    Any suggestions on what I should do next, or how to even start figuring it out?

    I’m currently in a job that usually has the title of Contract Specialist or Contract Administrator. I read contracts, make amendments or changes as needed, negotiate with counter parties, work with legal (although I am not a lawyer), and read RFPs/RFQs to see if it’s something we can agree to. I regularly work with different departments and executives.

    I’m also not that far from hitting a pay ceiling. They won’t keep paying me more every year after a certain point and I’m ready for a change of pace. Switching companies isn’t really helpful, the same position elsewhere pays the same and will have a similar ceiling. There’s no clear career progression after this unless maybe I become a manager of several different teams that deal with contracts and I’m not at all wild about the idea of becoming a manager (the weeks my boss works 50 hours she makes about what I do per hour and she has way more stress). There should be something I can transfer my skills to but I’m not sure what.

    Thoughts? Suggestions?

    1. Dagny*

      How much experience do you have? Do you have a background in accounting, finance, or management?

      Do you manage projects?

      1. WhatsNext*

        5+ years experience

        Accounting/finance/management – nope

        Project management – I don’t this so? I work on RFPs to pull everything together, that’s about as close as I come to that probably.

        1. Dagny*

          Try to find opportunities at your current job to get involved in strategic projects (not RFPs). Think anything from streamlining your current process, training other divisions in the contracts process and value, identifying where your department can be a value-add, etc.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      I am actually about to hire someone who is in essentially the same position! He’s been in Procurement since forever, and has recently expressed to his manager that he’s sick to death of writing RFPs. So we’re seconding him to my team, in a sort of Business Analyst/ Business Process Analyst role. We’re going to be launching a new llama grooming program in the next year or two, and we need him to help understand the business needs of our various program areas, help us figure out what software we need, and of course eventually draft the RFP.

      The reason it seems like such a good fit for us is that he will need to interact with everyone in the organization, and he’s really good with technology. Those are both secondary skills, that are highly transferrable. So depending on your organization, I would look towards Corporate Services type functions – HR, IT, Records Management, Facilities, etc. Lots of these will have roles that involve acting as a liaison between them and other parts of the organization. Look outside your own core skill set (eg procurement), and see if you can find a place where you can use your secondary skills (stakeholder engagement, relationship management, organizational awareness). Good luck!

  41. KevinCantWait*

    How reasonable is applying for a job that was posted over 2 weeks ago?

    I saw an IDEAL position for where I’m at in my career right now, but it was posted “about a month ago,” according to the job site. It’s still listed, and they’ve posted other positions since, so clearly the careers page is being updated on SOME level. But there’s a voice in my head that says…”Well, if they posted this job listing a month ago, they’ve definitely filled it by now!” Am I right?

    Also, this is NYC, and a somewhat-niche-but-still-over-saturated industry.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I don’t think it could hurt to apply – it’s certainly possible they’ve had plenty of applicants, but it’s also possible they’ve been slow to interview or haven’t had great options yet. Give it your best shot and then put it out of your head.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      Apply! I’ve applied a month in and been interviewed (different industry, but still) and even gotten the job. Now, maybe they’ve got all the applicants they need and this posting is just hanging out until its deadline. But you don’t know that, so go ahead an apply!

    4. Witchy Human*

      Personally, if I think the same company might post other positi0ns I’d be interested in at some point, I would hold off. If that seems unlikely, I would send in the application, but not agonize over it much.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Apply. We regularly have positions open for two MONTHS before they find someone qualified. Admittedly more people want to work in NYC than in my suburban area, but it’s not uncommon.

  42. Strawberry Fields*

    How do you stop an “Office Mom” from mothering you? I have one at work who thinks I’m weird because I’m not married with children. That’s all she wanted to do, blah blah blah….. She also gives me backhanded compliments like how I could be very pretty if I just wore more makeup, better clothes, exercised, etc.

    It’s funny because she’s very chummy with the men and would never tell them the same thing.

    She’s very curt when I ask her work questions, yet warm and friendly with others. She’ll ask me personal questions and it makes me uncomfortable. It’s a small office and we all sit close with one another, so I can’t avoid her or distance myself from her.

    I know we’ll never be best friends, but it is wearing on my patience. What is the best way to deal with these types? Is this a power play?

    1. Dagny*

      Yes, this is a power play.

      I’m interested to know if you’re under 35 and she’s over 40, because a lot of women do this when they get older. Their looks fade; they don’t get the attention they used to; they take it out on younger women and “put them in their place” to maintain the high status they had when they were younger and fresher.

      A very cold “How is this any of your business?” can do wonders. If you’re feeling really snarky, ask her how her marriage is going.

      1. Susie Q*

        “I’m interested to know if you’re under 35 and she’s over 40, because a lot of women do this when they get older. Their looks fade; they don’t get the attention they used to; they take it out on younger women and “put them in their place” to maintain the high status they had when they were younger and fresher.”

        What? This is a huge sweeping generalization. I’ve worked with plenty of women over 40 as a younger woman and have never had this issue. I have had it with women my own age. Age doesn’t make people bullies.

      2. Strawberry Fields*

        Yes to the age question. She often gives me the cold shoulder and stops talking if I’m near. She’ll talk with everyone else though. If I ask a question, she either ignores me or gives a short answer.

        1. Parenthetically*

          So she doesn’t want to speak to you about work but she wants to nitpick your life choices? Yikes. This isn’t a low-boundaries-but-kindly Office Mom, this is a rude, pushy busybody.

          “Oh, did you not hear me? Do you have the Jones, Inc. file? I need to look over the invoices.”

          If this is an ongoing pattern, I genuinely think it’s worth giving your boss a heads up about. “Hey Jane, there’s been a pattern going on for a few weeks/months that I find increasingly troubling and I just wanted to loop you in on it in case it becomes more serious. Several times a week, Karen will make comments about my body, clothes, diet, exercise, relationship status, fertility, etc., that are just on the border of rude, but probably close enough to ‘normal-sounding’ that they’d fly under people’s radar. In addition, several times a week, she will either respond curtly to my work-related questions or flat-out ignore me. Today I had to speak to two other people to get the paperwork I needed for the Jones Inc. billables because when I asked her for them she pointedly looked away and didn’t respond. I wanted to let you know about this odd dynamic now, because I’m planning on taking a more proactive approach with her, and asking her to stop each time she makes a personal comment about my body, fertility, etc. I’m also planning to more seriously pursue a response from her when I make requests and she doesn’t answer. At this point I don’t need anything from you, but I wanted to make you aware of what has been going on and my plan to address it. Thanks, Strawberry.”

            1. Parenthetically*

              Hmmmm. Can you document on your own, then? Just write stuff down and timestamp it? I’m assuming no grandboss or HR?

            2. Strawberry Fields*

              I want to ask her what her problem is with me since I’ve dealt with this in 2 previous jobs before, but I know I can’t… (Maybe it’s me?)

              1. Parenthetically*

                Nah, it’s not you, except inasmuch as “unconventional” life choices piss off people who think it’s somehow offensive to make such choices.

                And also — definitely don’t ask her what her problem is with you. You’re trying to get her to STOP making non-work-related comments about you, so don’t solicit non-work-related comments! Stick with telling her to stop specific behaviors as they arise. Please don’t comment on my body. Please don’t comment on my face. Please don’t comment on my fertility. Or — It’s weird that you keep commenting on my body, please stop. It’s weird that you keep commenting on my face, please stop. It’s weird that you keep trying to bring up my fertility, please stop.

                Really I highly recommend that Captain Awkward article. It doesn’t matter what she does or says to try to derail your request, you can just keep coming back to, “Okay, but I need you to stop making comments about my relationship and fertility choices, can you agree to that moving forward?”

              2. CheeryO*

                It’s not you. There are rude, close-minded people everywhere who pull this sort of thing, so you’ve probably just been a little unlucky. I’ve run into more office dads, but I go with something like, “It’ll happen on my own time. I know you’re trying to help, but I don’t need the advice.” If that’s more assertive than you’d prefer, it might be something that you need to practice in the mirror or with a friend.

                I would also give up on the idea of having a warm relationship with her, period. Aim for functional instead. It’s on her if she wants to make things weird.

                1. CheeryO*

                  (And obviously you don’t have to say that it’ll happen on your own time if that doesn’t ring true for you – that might just be pushing the issue down the road if you plan to work there for the foreseeable future.)

              3. Dagny*

                She is telling you what her problem with you is, FYI.

                Whatever she’s making comments about, she’s insecure about. It’s just that easy.

                1. Strawberry Fields*

                  Meaning the stuff she comments about? Me not having kids is part of her problem with me? (Genuinely asking.)

                2. Never Been There, Never Done That*

                  My best guess would be that, yes, you not having kids is part of her problem with you. You don’t fit the exact mold of how she thinks someone like you should be. All of this shit is on her and not about you. Meaning, anyone else in your shoes would be treated the same. My advice: ignore the backhanded compliments, focus on work topics when you have to interact with her and read Captain Awkward. If you haven’t read CA yet do it b/c it is a treasure trove of wisdom that will help you more than I can. Hang tough, I’ve been in your shoes.

      3. EggEgg*

        Oh my god, please do not ask her how her marriage is going. Just, what? That’s so invasive and aggressive in this context.

    2. Parenthetically*

      Karen, I need you to stop commenting on my appearance. It’s inappropriate for the office. Can you agree that moving forward, my looks and body and clothing aren’t topics for conversation any more?

      Karen, I need you to stop commenting on my life choices. They’re not up for discussion. Can you agree to stop?

      Captain Awkward has a GREAT article dated November 13 about dealing with bad-faith arguers by focusing on asking for a really specific behavior change. Highly recommend reading it for scripts.

    3. Another JD*

      Simply shut it down. “Please don’t comment on my clothing.” “Please don’t comment on my body.” “Please don’t discuss my fertility.”

    4. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

      Ugh. This is the worst. I had a coworker like that once (who was 8 years my senior), but her thing was safety. Every time I left the office she would say, “Be careful out there.” or “You need to drive safe.” It’s one thing to say, “Have a safe trip!” every once in a while, but she did this EVERY single time I left, even if I was in and out of the office multiple times a day. It got on my nerves to no end.

      I drive a lot to visit my family since I’m from a small town and it’s quicker to drive than fly – about a 6 hour road trip. Since I’ve been making this trip from my city for about 10 years back to my home town, I’ve had plenty of time to figure out the good stops along the way. I mentioned one time that the new Rest Stop on Interstate Blah Blah had recently finished construction and I liked to stop there. It was clean and well-maintained, plus I wasn’t tempted to buy anything like I would be at a gas station. She looked at me like I was crazy and said, “YOU should never stop at a place like that by yourself.” I asked her why not and she proceeded to tell me how a young (early 30s) woman like myself was very vulnerable in a place like that and you never know who else will be there. I took a deep breath and said, “Look, I’ve been driving long road trips by myself since I was 18 and in college. It’s the only way I would be able to get back to spend time with my family. I actually like places like this because a lot of families stop there, it’s not empty at times I’m driving by, and it’s CLEAN. I have to stop eventually, and it’s up to me to decide where I’m comfortable stopping on these trips. You don’t need to worry about it.”

      I think some people just like to be bossy (she was), and are know-it-alls (she was), and doll out unsolicited advice (that was her thing). Once I stood up for myself a bit she backed off (at least on the safety front).

      You might try something like, “I don’t understand why people are unhappy on my behalf. I’m happy with my life the way it is and the way I am, so please don’t say things like that.”

      2. Gumby*

        I’d just stop taking her seriously. “Drive safely” gets a “Well, phooey, there go my plans to play chicken with semis.” “You shouldn’t stop there by yourself” gets a weird look and a topic change/walk away.

    5. Hi there*

      My online running coach has a podcast (the Morning Mantra) that has had a few episodes on how to handle comments kind of like this from relatives around the holidays. I laughed out loud at the idea of responding to comments like “I don’t understand why you don’t… “ (wear makeup, visit more, etc.) with “That’s right, you don’t” and basically bouncing the conversational ball away.

  43. Peaches*

    How many of you have 11/28 & 11/29 for Thanksgiving? I feel like these are “standard” holidays in most industries, but I was just curious (note: I work in a pretty typical office).

    I think I’ve posted about this before, but I have a coworker who has worked at my company for 7 years (I’ve worked here 4 years). EVERY year when a holiday is approaching, she asks in a shocked voice, “wait, Peaches, do we have Christmas Eve off?!” Yes. Yes we do. Just like every other year (also this is posted on our company’s website). Then, she goes on to say how generous our company is with holidays, and how she doesn’t know of any other companies who get off on (insert holiday). Here are the holidays we have off every year:

    New Year’s Day
    Memorial Day
    Independence Day (sometimes we get two days here, if Independence Day falls at the beginning or end of a week)
    Labor Day
    Thanksgiving & the Friday after
    Christmas Eve & Christmas

    Does this seem pretty typical? I think it does!

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I’ve never gotten both days for Thanksgiving.

      My current job follows NYSE market holidays, so we get
      New Year’s Day
      MLK Jr Day
      Presidents Day
      Good Friday
      Memorial Day
      Independence Day
      Labor Day
      Thanksgiving
      Christmas Day

    2. no kind of atmosphere*

      I think it really depends. I don’t have the day after Thanksgiving off or Christmas Eve. But I have all the federal holidays like MLK Day, etc.

      3. masters student of none*

        Weird, I’m state gov employee and we get the day after Thanksgiving and Christmas plus they added thd 27th as a special leave day. Though we don’t get Columbus day but we do get Veterans day, MLK plus some random state holidays

        1. Tiny Magnolia*

          Government here, too. Here are our days:
          NYD
          MLK Day
          Memorial Day
          July 4
          Labor Day
          Veterans Day
          Thanksgiving
          Christmas

    3. KevinCantWait*

      In my office, we get off Columbus Day, Labor Day, Veteran’s Day, President’s Day…and we’re always backed up with calls/emails the day after. We do NOT get Christmas Eve or NYE, or the day after Thanksgiving off. And no one ever calls or emails on those days. Sigh!

    4. CTT*

      I’m in a law firm and we get Thursday-Friday off; that said, I usually end up working some that Friday because I’m in transactions and things always want to close at the end of the month.

    5. ThatGirl*

      Our holidays are:
      New Year’s Day
      President’s Day (first place I’ve worked that has that standard)
      Memorial Day
      Fourth of July
      Labor Day
      Thanksgiving & Black Friday
      Christmas Eve & Christmas Day
      plus they introduced a “bonus” Employee Appreciation Day that they tack on to something else (so this year it was the 5th of July to give us a long weekend)

      to me, the day after Thanksgiving isn’t that generous, it was standard at my last company too, and my husband also gets it off (he’s in academia).

    6. TotesMaGoats*

      I’m in higher ed and we get off even more than that but we always get Thanksgiving and the friday after. Thanks to how Xmas falls I get almost two weeks off this year. Huzzah!

      1. Sparkly Librarian*

        Yes, thanks to the calendar I found it much easier take two weeks off around Xmas/NY, and only used maybe 6 vacation days. It’s not going to happen that way for a while, but we have our first baby this year and will get to visit with all the family who want to see us (plus a retreat at midwinter music camp).

    7. Nicki Name*

      Seems typical to me, but not absolutely standard. About half my jobs have had Christmas Eve and Black Friday off. The one job I’ve had in a blue-collar industry was the only one where we would get a 4-day weekend for Independence Day if it was a Tuesday or Thursday. In other years, we’d usually get Presidents’ Day off.

      That job also gave us Good Friday off every year, and no one was sure why.

      In tech it’s really common to have a floating holiday which is technically for your birthday but can be used anytime.

    8. Penny*

      I get both Thursday and Friday off, and feel like it’s pretty standard to do both for office type jobs. (Obviously, different for service industry and retail jobs.)

      We used to have I think 12 paid holidays a year, the pretty standard ones. Soon we are switching to a system where we have fewer off, but some floating holidays thrown in to make up for it. I really like that system. A couple of the days off are days when schools around here are actually open, and as nice as it is to have a day off when my kid has school, it’s more practical to save those floating days for times when school is closed and I didn’t previously have off.

    9. Amazing A*

      It’s *fairly* typical, but not everywhere. I work in a seasonal industry, and my holidays are as follows:

      New Year’s Day
      Memorial Day
      Fourth of July
      Labor Day
      Thanksgiving & Black Friday
      Christmas Day

      Depending on when Christmas and New Year’s fall, the office will close on Christmas Eve and New Year’s Eve, but we’ll be forced to use vacation days.

    10. londonedit*

      I’m in the UK, so I’m totally not going to answer your actual question, but I’ve found there are people who just don’t keep that sort of information in their heads, and as someone who does, it baffles me. Somehow, over my 38 years, I’ve come to know that the first and last Mondays in May are always public holidays, the last Monday in August is always a public holiday, the clocks go forward on the last Sunday in March and back on the last Sunday in October, etc etc. Yet I have friends of all ages who, every year, are shocked by these events. ‘Wait! It’s a bank holiday on Monday??’ Well yes it is, it’s May 3rd. I’ve come to realise that it’s one of those fundamental differences between how different people’s brains deal with information.

      Christmas Eve is an interesting one, too, because it’s not a public holiday here (the 25th and 26th are) and company policies are wildly different. Sometimes you’ll get the whole day off, sometimes there’s this unwritten rule that the office will close at lunchtime and if you come in for the morning, you don’t have to take the afternoon as leave, but if you want to guarantee the whole day off then you do need to take a day’s leave for it, etc etc. So I can see someone being confused about that. But if they’ve been there 7 years and it’s company policy that you always get Christmas Eve off, then yeah, you get Christmas Eve off!

    11. AnOtterMouse*

      That’s a pretty normal schedule. I’m a Fed, so we get:

      New Year’s Day
      Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
      Washington’s Birthday/Presidents Day
      Memorial Day
      Independence Day
      Labor Day
      Indigenous Peoples Day (still officially Columbus Day, ugh :-/)
      Veterans Day
      Thanksgiving Day
      Christmas Day

    12. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Our official holidays are New Year’s Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving day, Christmas Day. No eves or days-after. However, I work remotely, so as long as I get it cleared by my manager, I can work on the official holiday and save the PTO for a different day. Which I actually do quite regularly, at least for half days, because I rarely do anything notable on holidays and have better uses for my PTO than spending it sitting around my house doing the same things I always do. :)

      My husband gets the day after Thanksgiving and I think half-days on Christmas Eve and New Year’s Eve?

    13. Enough*

      Sate worker husband had-
      New Years
      Martin Luther King Day
      Presidents’ Day
      Memorial Day
      Fourth of July
      Labor Day
      Columbus day
      Veterans Day
      Thanksgiving Day and day after
      Christmas Day
      and he had 4 personal days to take when ever (it may be only 2 now) He always used them for the days between Christmas and New Years

      At a prior job they ‘gave up’ veterans day for the day after Thanksgiving off

    14. Rusty Shackelford*

      Mr. S’s employer is so awful that you earn NO PTO AT ALL until you’ve worked there a full year, and they still get every day you’ve listed here except Christmas Eve.

    15. DCGirl*

      Government contractor in the federal space. We get Columbus Day and Veterans Day but not the day after Thanksgiving or Christmas Eve. I also used to work at company that followed the NYSE.

    16. Lyudie*

      My company does both days for Thanksgiving, but this is the first place I’ve been that does it so I don’t know how common it really is. The rest of your list jives with my experience, though I don’t recall having two days for Independence Day.

    17. CatCat*

      We got a lot of holidays:

      New Year’s Day
      Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Day
      Lincoln’s Birthday
      President’s Day
      Cesar Chavez Day
      Memorial Day
      Independence Day
      Labor Day
      Columbus Day
      Veteran’s Day
      Thanksgiving
      Day After Thanksgiving
      Christmas Day

    18. Jamie*

      I’ve always had both days for Thanksgiving and usually Christmas Eve as well, but that’s occasionally been a half day.

    19. Llama Wrangler*

      I have always gotten Thursday and Friday off, but I know enough people who do not that I don’t think of it as standard. (I am in the non-profit field, and I think it’s generally the big social service agencies that make you use a vacation day for it.)

      My current organization gives more, but my previous role gave what your company gives!

    20. ArtK*

      That looks like a typical list, at least for a large corporation. Here’s what mine gave this year. There are 11 plus you get one floater.

      New Years Day*
      MLK
      President’s Day
      Memorial Day*
      Independence Day*
      Labor Day*
      Thanksgiving Day*
      Day after Thanksgiving**
      Christmas Eve**
      Christmas Day*
      New Years Eve**

      * These are available for part-time workers as well
      ** These change depending on where the holidays land in a particular year

    21. Donkey Hotey*

      My current employer finally decided that New Year’s Day 2020 we get off as a holiday.
      Former employer’s holiday schedule matched yours.
      But prior to that, I had never seen Black Friday or Christmas Eve as standard holidays.

      Bonus Grumble: When I am made benevolent dictator, only Veterans will get Veteran’s Day off.

    22. KR*

      Very typical. We get all of those plus Good Friday off ( I think as a way to break up the long time between federal holidays in the spring)

    23. OtterB*

      We get:
      MLK
      Memorial Day
      4th of July
      Labor Day
      Thanksgiving and day after
      A somewhat varying window around Christmas and New Years depending on when they fall – 2 full weeks this year

      We specifically don’t take President’s Day, Columbus Day, or Veteran’s Day because of getting the extra time at Thanksgiving and Christmas.

      We’re a not-for-profit whose members are university departments, so they’re mostly not in at the end of the year anyway and we don’t need coverage. I run a survey that closes in mid-January, so I’ll keep an eye on my email while we’re off in case somebody’s in their office working on it and has a question, but it won’t be burdensome on me.

    24. slavetothefaxmachine*

      State employee, and we get:

      New Year’s Day
      MLK day
      Good Friday
      Memorial Day
      July 4th
      Labor Day
      Thanksgiving and Black Friday
      Christmas Day

      On the day before Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve and New Years’s Eve we close early

    25. Bubbles*

      At previous places I’ve worked, I did NOT get Christmas Eve and the day after Thanksgiving off.

      When I moved into education – specifically University – we had to use a vacation or personal day for the day after Thanksgiving. Christmas Eve has never been any sort of expected holiday.

    26. Legally Brunette*

      I get:
      New Years Day
      Presidents Day
      Good Friday
      Memorial Day
      Independence Day
      Labor Day
      Columbus Day (bizarre we have this)
      Thanksgiving + Friday
      Christmas Eve + Christmas Day

      They fudge things a bit depending what day Christmas and 4th of July fall on. I used to work for county level government and got all of these minus Christmas Eve (which everyone took off anyway) and also MLK day, Veterans Day, primary and regular election day. I miss those.

    27. Arjay*

      I do get Thursday and Friday, but this is the first company I’ve worked for that includes that Friday as a holiday.
      Christmas Eve is not a holiday here, but hey’ll usually do an early release of about two hours.

    28. Lucette Kensack*

      We get: New Year’s Day (or the next work day if it’s a weekend), MLK Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day (or the next work day if it’s a weekend), Labor Day, Thanksgiving (but not the following Friday), Christmas Eve (if it’s a weekday, but not if it’s a weekend), and Christmas Day (or the following day if it’s a weekend).

    29. AvonLady Barksdale*

      We (a small company) get that exact schedule off, plus President’s Day. We also get the week off between Christmas and January 1st, and that break starts on Christmas Eve. When I worked for a huge national company, we got these says plus MLK Day plus President’s Day, but we worked Christmas Eve and New Year’s Eve. I’ve never worked anywhere that didn’t give you the day after Thanksgiving off, but I know a lot of people who don’t get that day.

      My partner is a Fed and I find it so weird that he doesn’t have the day off after Thanksgiving. But he gets Columbus Day and Veteran’s Day.

    30. Aphrodite*

      I work as staff at a community college (two year) in California but I know our school’s holidays are much better than others in the same system. We have:

      Christmas Eve through New Year’s Day
      Presidents’ Day (Friday and Monday)
      Memorial Day
      July 4
      Labor Day
      Veteran’s Day
      Thanksgiving Day and Friday

    31. Daisy-dog*

      I do think giving Christmas Eve is very generous. I’m in my first ever company that provides it and it was added only last year.

      New Year’s Day
      Good Friday (because there’s no other spring holidays)
      Memorial Day
      Independence Day
      Labor Day
      Thanksgiving & Day After (the Friday has been given in less than half of my companies)
      Christmas Eve & Christmas

    33. Warm Weighty Wrists*

      We get the following 8 days off:
      NYD
      MLK
      Memorial Day
      July 4
      Labor Day
      Thanksgiving Day + Day After
      Christmas Day

      We also get two floating holidays per year, which a lot of people use for the day before Thanksgiving (i.e., pie baking day), Christmas Eve, high holidays, or taking off a day their spouse has off but they don’t (like President’s Day). Or they just use the floating holidays like PTO.

    34. Not So NewReader*

      “Well, Shocked Coworker, part of my holiday festivities is us having this conversation every year. There, good! You asked and I now feel like my holiday season has begun.”

    35. LilySparrow*

      I’d say that was typical when I was working in more corporate environments like banking and law.

      I could see it being different in other sectors, or in very small companies. It really depends what her background is.

    36. Alex*

      A lot of places don’t have Christmas Eve off. We don’t. But we do get the day after Thanksgiving. We also don’t get two days for July 4th no matter what day of the week it is.

      But we do get MLK, President’s, Columbus/Indigenous People’s day, and Veteran’s day.

      So I’d say your holidays are pretty average. But maybe your colleague used to work at a stingier place, of which there are plenty.

    37. HBJ*

      I think her comments are a bit obnoxious, but, no, I would not say this is common. I’ve never had Christmas Eve or the day after Thanksgiving off and neither had my husband. Fwiw, that includes a government job (me) and a job with one of the largest employers in the state (my husband).

    38. Gatomon*

      It seems atypical to me, actually. I’ve never worked anywhere that got the day after Thanksgiving or Christmas off. Our list is:

      New Year’s Day
      President’s Day
      Memorial Day
      Independence Day
      Labor Day
      Thanksgiving Day
      Christmas Day

      Most other places in town get MLK Day and Veteran’s Day off too, but we do not. At my old state job, we got MLK Day, Veteran’s Day, Columbus Day/Indigenous People’s Day and even Election Day off if there was a federal election that year. November was always a mess at that job.

      One nice thing my current company does though is a sort of early release. Usually the day before a big holiday we get set free in the early afternoon. It only applies if it’s directly before a holiday though, and it’s always announced sometime that morning. You either have to risk wasting a chunk of PTO if you want to guarantee the day off, or you take your chances. There was massive disappointment a few years ago when Christmas Day was on a Monday and we all had to work until 5 on the Friday before.

    39. fingers crossed*

      I just started a new job last week and get both Thanksgiving and the day after. In total I get 10 holidays I think -but I was quite happy to see *in writing* that we also get out 2 hours early the day before many holidays: Presidents Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year’s. No more of that waiting around and wondering!

  44. cubiclezirconia*

    I’m currently in law school and applying for jobs, so this issue has been on my mind. My first name is a double name styled with a space and two capital letters, like Mary Sue. This is my legal name, with a few exceptions on official documents where the space had to be omitted for practical reasons (like MarySue or Marysue). People who don’t know me well often call me just Mary and/or assume that Sue is a middle name. I sometimes correct them and sometimes don’t – it’s generally easier to just let the barista to write Mary on my cup, for example. But in more professional settings, what’s the best way to politely correct people without making it awkward? I worked in a professional office before law school, but the team I was on already had a Mary when I was hired, so my coworkers called me Mary Sue right off the bat without much issue.

    My other question is for my email signature. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve sent out an email with my email signature looking like this:

    “Thanks,
    Mary Sue

    Mary Sue Smith
    marysuesmith @ lawschool. com”

    And then get a response that starts with, “Hi, Mary,”.

    Would it be appropriate to add a line to my default email signature that says something like “Please note that my first name is Mary Sue.”? Or would that come off as overkill?

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      That would be overkill, alas. I’ve seen many people whose nicknames aren’t their e-mail names put their preferred name in quotes, like John “Peter” Smith. But you’ve got the opposite problem. I say keep Mary Sue in your signature and correct people in the moment in person or on calls when they don’t have your full name.

    2. Amber Rose*

      My full name is in my signature and my email address, and people still reply to my emails with “Hi Amanda.”

      There’s just no way around it with email. You’re better off just correcting to people who are talking to you, and leave the written stuff alone. I know it’s grating, but it’s also a pick your battles kinda thing.

      1. cubiclezirconia*

        Thank you for your insight. I was inspired by it becoming (somewhat) more commonplace to include preferred pronouns in email signatures and thought I could potentially do something similar by noting my preferred name, which is my actual name. You’re right about this often being a “pick your battles” situation.

    3. CTT*

      I think it’s overkill, especially since people have a tendency to mess up names in email anyway because they don’t read carefully. I have a name that has multiple spellings, and even though my name is right there in the email in my signoff and signature, I get the variations all the time (not to mention the time someone was CONVINCED, despite multiple email correspondences, that my last name was my first name).

      1. no kind of atmosphere*

        (not to mention the time someone was CONVINCED, despite multiple email correspondences, that my last name was my first name).

        Solidarity!

        1. CTT*

          tbf though I also have done that before. Her name was something like Judy James, and we already had one Judy on the project and for some reason I decided there couldn’t be TWO Judys so I defaulted to James, and then as soon as I sent it I realized what I had done and apologized.

    4. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

      The fact that it is styled as two words for legal purposes doesn’t mean that you can’t sign an email “Marysue.” There may be any number of reasons you don’t want to do that, but it greatly improves your odds of being called Marysue.

      I only mention it because my mother’s name is, ummmm let’s say it’s Bobbie Sue, but she’s been called Bobbiesue since birth, that’s what everyone calls her, that’s how they (including her mother) address mail to her. She’s so well known as “Bobbiesue” that if someone were to address her as “Bobbie,” everyone else would look around in confusion.

      But when she signs a legal doc, it’s Bobbie Sue.

      3. cubiclezirconia*

        I should clarify that my name is not “stylized as two words for legal purposes”. My name as-is is literally my name, what I’ve always gone as (with rare exception), and is how I identify myself.

    5. MultiNames*

      I wouldn’t add that to my signature, but I might add a PS to a reply that someone started with “Dear Mary,” that said something like, “Just to minimize any confusion, my first name is “Mary Sue.” Thanks!”

    6. Alice*

      Just tell people when they make a mistake. Friendly tone of voice, even if it’s not the first time. The most you can do preemptively without coming across oddly is to say, when you’re introducing yourself in real time on the phone or in person, “I’m Mary Sue Smith; please call me Mary Sue.”

    7. T. Boone Pickens*

      Adding that line is going to be overkill. As someone who has 2 first names, when I send out an email it’s usually a 60/40 split that when I get a response back I’ll be addressed as my last name. I try to address it by responding back to email, Thanks, *first name* and that usually does the trick. I agree with the other posters that a quick correction in person with a friendly tone should nip it in the bud 95% of the time.

    8. Deanna Troi*

      I used to work in an office where they did everything by your three initials, including all internal documents (except for payroll/taxes/etc. There was a woman with two parts to her first name, such as Mary Ann. Her middle name was Kathleen and let’s say her last name was Smith. Her initials were MKS, because Kathleen was her middle name. I can’t tell you how many people wrote MAS. It didn’t matter how many times she or I explained that the A was part of her first name, not a separate initial. They could not grasp this. If I were her, I would have found it to be maddening.

  45. MOAS*

    Our HR organized a leadership training seminar yesterday which was 30 of us in a stuffy room for 3 hours. The presenter was good, but I think it was just badly organized–I wish they could have split the sessions in to 2. But alas, that wasn’t cost effective *roll eyes*

    The presentation covered a lot about the Meyers Briggs stuff and the personality types.

    One thing that I found amusing was… there was a section where we discussed traits of good managers and bad managers. She was calling on people to give answers..I thought it was really amusing because….who’s going to talk about the bad boss traits IN FRONT OF THEIR OWN BOSS. Heck, even the good examples I wouldn’t really want to bring up because they felt too personal.

    2. ArtK*

      Aside from the MBPT pseudo-science, the rest of the session sounds horrible. This is like the boss who insisted that everyone share their most personal things in a group setting. Someone really didn’t think about how this would go.

    3. OhGee*

      Almost this exact scenario happened at my job yesterday. Different personality test. It was not awesome.

  46. Mrs. C*

    I was looking through the archives, and saw several posts about what happens when you’ve got one job offer on the table from Company A, but you are waiting to hear from your first choice (Company B). One thing those posts don’t address is what to do if Company A gives you a week to decide, and the week elapses before Company B is ready to give you an offer. If you’ve decided that you’d rather wait for Company B’s decision, what would you tell Company A?

    I’m not in this situation yet, but I could see myself being there in a month or so. In this hypothetical, let’s say that you understand that Company A has to move on with other candidates. There’s also nothing wrong with Company A or its job – it’s just less exciting than the job at Company B. How do you say “I don’t have another offer, and there’s nothing wrong with your job, but you can move on to other candidates” to Company A in a tactful way?

    1. CAA*

      If you’re willing to wait for Company B and take the chance of losing out on both jobs, you just tell Company A “Thank you for the offer, but I’ve decided not to accept the position at this time.” If they ask why, you can say “I’ve decided to go in a different direction with my job search.”

  47. Holiday Parties as a manager*

    Two of my team members hold annual holiday parties for their friends and families. They also invite my whole team from work, including me, their manager, and some people go while others skip. I enjoy both of these team members as people, but I feel awkward attending so have skipped in the past. My thinking has been that even if the person inviting me feels comfortable with me there, that doesn’t mean that all of the other team members want to hang out with their boss on their personal time, and I’d rather the team bond than me. What do other managers do?

    1. Inopportune Moose*

      I don’t manage people, but something that I’ve seen others do in similar situations is show up for an hour or so and then duck out, or show support without going– e.g. replying all that you can’t be there but think it’s a great idea, or sending a bottle of wine, etc. Would either of those work?

    2. Policy Wonk*

      If it’s an open house or reception type of event, I do a short drop-by, apologizing for not being able to stay, but I have another commitment. Have a drink, make a circuit of the other employees there to say hi, perhaps greet and have a short conversation with host’s family members, admire the decor, and then leave. If I don’t have another holiday party to attend, I make dinner reservations somewhere so that I am truthful about the other commitment.

      If it’s a more formal thing, such as a dinner, I politely decline.

    3. ElizabethJane*

      I’ve had managers either decline or stop by for the beginning and then leave early (read: leave before the alcohol really gets flowing). That way they are showing support but not actually forcing people to hang out with the boss.

    4. Lady Heather*

      Not a manager – but I think the golden rule is that the boss leaves before their employees get tipsy.

  48. Jellyman Kelly*

    A couple of weeks ago I had to have a conversation with one of my staff about lateness and absences. She didn’t like what I had to say, but seemed to accept it. A few days ago she sent me a note that she would be late because of a doctor’s appointment and said that she had rescheduled it several times to the detriment of her health. I never asked her to reschedule the appointment. In fact the first I heard about it was this week during our regular meeting and I said ok (completely neutral response) and noted it down in my calendar.

    I really feel I was relatively gentle in my initial discussion: I know life happens and it’s totally fine when it does, but also let’s try not to have last minute absences whenever possible. (For the record, she did not disclose any health or personal issues). I’m a bit bewildered by the formality and (almost) aggressive response she’s had to it. She’s generally a good employee, but she doesn’t take criticism well. And this reaction feels like an attempt to demonstrate that I’m being unnecessarily critical, which a) I don’t think I am and b) feels like a an overreaction, which if it continues — do I then have to have another conversation about being able to accept and discuss feedback?

      1. Jellyman Kelly*

        For a planned absence I’d like more than 24 hours notice, so I can make sure there aren’t any issues with that person being out and also the opportunity to say it’s not possible if it impacts the department.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      I have seen people cut off their noses to spite their faces when called out on stuff like this.

      One, you don’t know that she actually rescheduled the appointment.

      Two, maybe she did, but did it as much so she could blame you for making her harm herself through rescheduling as she did in a misguided attempt to avoid being late/absent.

      Three, maybe she rescheduled for reasons completely unrelated to the job but figures she might as well throw it in your face, anyway, while she has the idea in hand.

      1. Jellyman Kelly*

        All potentially true. I don’t think she’s quite so spiteful to reschedule it so she could blame me, but #3 isn’t out of the realm of possibility.

        1. valentine*

          It doesn’t make sense, even if you have impromptu meetings or emergencies daily. Let’s say there’s a literal fire to put out every day and no one knows when or where until the alarm goes. On Tuesday at 10:00, it’s in your department. She was going to leave at 10:05. All she would have to do is say, “I have an appointment. Can I send (almost anyone else in the building) here on my way out?” Assuming things are not so dire, this sounds like something a simple calendar might fix. You would see she’s blocked off 10:05-11:30 and either assume she won’t be at the meeting you need to have then, or find a time when she’s available.

          You can tell her the procedure for accommodating emergency or just random medical appointments, but I’d start by asking her why she needs to be late or absent so often and go from there.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “Jane, you seem upset here, what am I missing here? I would like for us to talk it through if it is something pertaining to work.”

      Keep it real simple. Don’t let any assumptions show, even you have ideas on what is going on.
      People are amazing. I found I could ask questions like this, brace myself, and then find out it has nothing to do with me/work/policies at all.

      She may just be mad at the doc.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Oh dear……..I have been on both sides of this in the past!!

      She’s trying to make you feel guilty, imo, as a response to the conversation about “lateness and absence” (I’m assuming there were no specific circumstances like a car breakdown or documented illness, she was just late and/or not going to be in due to ‘whatever’ a few times) and as such you should treat it like you treat any other passive aggressive behaviour. e.g. boss called me out on being absent and I need to see the doc but I’ve postponed it 3 times already as it wouldn’t be convenient but then it became an emergent appointment to the detriment of my health!

      Personally my response to most p-a statement is to agree no matter how preposterous it is and take it at face value (‘ok I’ll put it in the calendar’ as per your original response! & ‘next time please let me know with more notice) although maybe as a manager there are better responses.

      Yes, you need to have a conversation with her about accepting and responding to feedback, for sure.

  49. Beatrix*

    Any equity adjustment horror stories or advice? I recently found out that all of my coworkers received equity increases last month… except me. So whereas I felt that things were pretty equitable before, now my salary is out of sync with my department – and after doing some digging, it’s wildly out of sync with the institution. Like, lowest paid person with my job title, despite having more experience than about half of my colleagues. I’ll be speaking with my boss next week (though I’m reasonably sure this decision came from well above him), but I’d love to hear anyone else’s experiences or advice. (FYI, I’m in academic administration)

    1. Reba*

      Oh no! Something kinda similar recently happened to spouse. In his case the tricky part was that they don’t have public salaries, and there are not many people in his same role so it was hard to say what he knew without showing how he knew it.

      I would say to follow the key advice for negotiating, which is not to talk to much! State your findings, say, “can you help me understand what happened here” and then stop. Let your boss fill in the awkward silence, if any. I’d also ask for a timeline for this to be rectified.

      Good luck!

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Seconded. Ask about the inconsistency – It may be that there’s just a mistake somewhere, like you’re partially grant funded so your name didn’t come up or the numbers on the back end look different. Let them have the chance to either fix the inconsistency or explain it.

      2. Beatrix*

        Thanks! That’s excellent advice – my first instinct was to present a whole damn essay about it, but I realized that brevity is definitely the way to go here (as in so many instances).

        1. Reba*

          Yeah, the Alison-style tone of “of course the company would want to fix this egregious thing!” could be a good way to start.

  50. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    Tips for a telepresence interview? I’m interviewing for a new position with a manager in another location, so I’ll be doing the interview at the office. We have a dedicated telepresence room set up with fancy cameras, tablet control, and giant screens. I know to look at the camera, not the display, and I don’t have to worry about what’s in the background since the room is reserved for the interview, but I’m not sure what else I should be aware of.

    1. LadyTesla*

      Solid colors/color blocked outfit. While crazy patterns make the visual harder to look at, versus your face and your content.

    2. No Name Yet*

      Yes to the solid colors, as patterns also make the video connection work “harder”, so the overall quality of the connection can be decreased. Also, know that most video connections will (either constant or intermittently) have a lag, though it can be pretty short. This means that you may need to pause more between statements or after letting them speak, will help you speak over them less.

      Lastly, the ‘look at the camera not the display’ depends entirely on the specific set-up – so if you’ve been told that (or experienced that) about this set-up, absolutely. But some of them can be set up so that you can “look” at the person on the display and have them feel that you’re making eye contact. But I’d say definitely better to err looking too high, as I think most people react better to feeling that you’re looking over their heads instead of at the ground.

  51. Can I get a Wahoo?*

    My boss made a not so subtle reference to the fact that she needs to justify my position. We’ve already had a few positions eliminated over the last year, so it’s not an idle warning.

    My question is: do I focus on getting my numbers up or trying to find a new job? Budgets are going to be made in the next few months, so the time to start looking is now. On top of all of this, my anxiety is out of control so I really only feel like I can focus on one or the other at the moment.

    1. pally*

      Can you ask boss how she plans to justify your position? Will she do this via your numbers? If so, does she have a feel for how good your numbers have to be? If not, then concentrate on scramming.

      1. ArtK*

        Yup. Find out what the boss believes the target numbers/productivity/behavior is and then decide whether you think it’s worth the effort (or even possible) to meet that in order to keep this job. At the same time, polish that resume and start looking around. Remember, you don’t have to take a new job at this point.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Find out how serious the problem is first.
      You might just be able to brain storm with your boss to find talking points that could solve the problem. I have done this a few times, where I helped the boss find reasons for various things including continued employment. It’s one of the ways we can support our bosses.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      As a fellow anxiety sufferer — I’d focus on getting out. (and I did, in a related but not really “similar” situation to yours).

      If you get your numbers up and ‘survive’ this time, it will still be on your mind — what about next time? what’s that meeting? can everything change? If you have a reasonable amount of time in this position already (you said “over the last year” so I assume you have been there at least a year) it won’t be job hopping to seek to move on now.

  52. Ruth (UK)*

    I’ve just finished my 1st week in my new job. I’m feeling ok / overall positive about it but I am also finding it really difficult to adjust. Right now, I feel like I have almost no clue what I’m doing and am just bluffing my way through each moment. I have moved departments in a university (it’s large enough that there will be absolutely no crossover with my previous department. It’s like working at a totally new job but on the same campus) from one admin role to another. I’m finding it a little overwhelming at the moment… I’m now dealing with drama students who apparently are both accident prone and emotional (I’ve been advised to carry tissues and plasters with me and have already had one crying student and one minor first aid incident).

    One random thing that has helped me is that while working in the previous department over several years, I became friendly with cleaning / catering / estates / ground maintenance / etc staff. ie. job roles where people tend to move around campus and see people from all departments. I like to run/walk around campus during my lunch break and I’m quite a chatty person. I’ve actually had some of the people from these types of job roles come find me in my new location to check in and say hi which has really helped me feel more settled and ‘at home’ in a new place.

    I’m struggling to remember how long it took me to get comfortable with my last job… Even though I was only there 2 years. Hopefully things here will become clear soon.

    2. ArtK*

      It will get better. Assuming that you meant theater students and not just a collection of drama-prone kids, yes, you’re going to have to deal with a lot of emotional stuff. I’ve worked adjacent to theater people (musician and a touch of tech theater) and have found actors in particular tend to bring their emotions into play on just about everything. It can be entertaining, but also exhausting.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have always thought the first day is the worst it will ever be. Where is my area, where do I put my coat, where’s the fridge, ugh! I had asking this stuff. The second day is a tiny bit better. Likewise with weeks, the first week is the worst, the second is a tiny bit better and so on.

  53. Matilda Jefferies*

    I started this thought last week, but didn’t get a chance to follow up.

    What’s good about flexible seating, from the employee’s perspective? I know why employers like it, and I can understand the benefits of flexibility for collaboration and WFH and so on. But for people like me, who value stability over flexibility, what other benefits are there? I don’t care about not having a cubicle, but I do feel strongly about having a place that is “mine” at work. There are a number of things at my desk that make my life easier – my coffee cup, kleenex box, pens, notebook, reading glasses, fidget toys – not everything at my desk is fully “personal,” or easily packed into a locker at the end of the day. I feel like we’re all going to lose a lot of time if we’re all packing and unpacking our desks twice a day, plus the distraction and the noise factor of all this movement and lack of soft surfaces.

    So far my assumption has been that the new workspace will be somewhere between “mildly inconvenient” and “incredibly loud and annoying.” But on the other hand, the change is coming whether I like it or not – and I’m also expected to be a bit of a change leader, whether I like it or not.

    So, AAM readers, what’s the benefit *to employees* to this kind of seating arrangement? For the people who like it, what do they like about it? For the people who could learn to like it, what helps them adapt? (No stories about flexible seating being terrible, please! I can imagine lots of those on my own, and I’m specifically trying to adopt a positive mindset. Just tell me the good things!)

    2. Admin of Sys*

      It depends on whether ‘flexible seating’ means ‘everyone in a giant open bullpen with no walls and long tables’ or if it means ‘no one has an assigned desk so grab the open space that works best for you’.
      If there’s a variety of locations available, it can be nice to alternate between ‘desk right next to the coffee maker because I’m feeling chatty’, ‘desk near the window because I want sun’ , and ‘desk in the back corner where no one will bother me’. It can be also be nice to decide that you want to hang out over by Pat today, because you know they’ll be quiet, vs sit next to Chris because Chris shares their chocolate.
      In the ‘things to make it work better’ category – I tend to treat open seating offices kind of like working from coffee shops. Bring a backpack or briefcase with everything you might need (within reason) and ‘claim’ your space for the day when you arrive. Most stuff can stay in the bag until you need it, so figure out what you always immediately need (laptop, coffee), and also something relatively unique and obvious to claim the space. I like using a journal with a leather cover – it’s professional and unique looking, but also unlikely to wander.

    3. Ann Perkins*

      Late to answering, but I’ve done flexible seating and didn’t mind it. My then employer allowed employees to work 1-2 days remotely a week. Any given day 20-30% of the workforce would be remote There was approximately 400 of us in this particular office. The company was able to save costs and it was passed on to the employees as remote benefit. Each teapot team was given a designated area for their 30-40 employees.

      Other benefits, everyone was issued the same equipment. I could dock my computer at any desk. I would log onto my phone each morning. The company invested a lot into technology, screen sharing, conference rooms. It was easy to collaborate with your remote coworkers. We all had hand free headsets too. The office was completely paperless. We were each issued a rolling cabinet.

      As far as personalizing, I put a family photo on my desktop and called it good. If the employer has made strides in technology, paperless environment, and remote working…it can be a win.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      We just moved to this hotdesking setup. I can tell you there aren’t any benefits to the employee!

      I now have to lug several heavy bags from my locker to the desks.
      You cannot configure your monitor.
      It takes me 15-20 minutes to set up, power up and make adjustments every morning.
      No personal niceties or personality to your workspace.

      Worse: Even though our department has no assigned seating, I’m constantly getting pressured to sit in a certain area I do NOT want to sit in because it’s very loud and busy with people and visitors walking by. I prefer the quiet corner, because… it’s quiet and less distracting! It ticks me off, because if you want us to sit in a particular spot, then assign us permanent ‘effin desks. Argh!

  54. DC*

    I’m in my last week or so at this shitty job, and there’s a chance my grandboss will be in the office next week (My team of 5 is “remote” so GB never sees any of the things that are why 2 of 5 of us are leaving and a 3rd is hunting.).

    I am trying to work out what exactly, to say to her. Obviously a professional version of “Boss sucks and is a bad manager and micromanager” but there is also an element that is her responsibility because he has no oversight and she lets him run rampant.

    How do I not burn this bridge but still make sure she understands how damaging Boss is to the organizational, internally and externally?

    1. Never Been There, Never Done That*

      Try to stick to facts and do not get emotional or too personal. Maybe try and think of how the information would best benefit GB and trying giving it in that fashion? Good luck.

    2. LadyTesla*

      That’s a big challenge, telling your grandboss your boss stinks, when the grandboss directly asks, nonetheless proactively doing it instead. I would seriously question if your grandboss needs that information, or doesn’t already have it through the message of many people leaving.

      *If* you feel compelled to the point to GB this fact, you have to do it through measureable means they wouldn’t be aware of, or as a confirmation. For the first, it has to be framed in a factual way that cannot be questioned (or can be confirmed), or can be determined, and something they don’t already know. If they know it, their inaction is your answer. Example: “I wanted to ask you about the policy the boss told us of requiring a daily email listing our tasks. It’s really hurting our work, and dropping morale”. This is something you can point to an email to, and you clearly show the impact of the work of why it’s bad. Aka, why grand boss should care. The confirmation needs to be only if you feel you have a good relationship, or if they care about it, with GB. Example, “I wanted to confirm with you if you were aware of the cause of Joe leaving.”

      ALL of these *must* be done in a one on one, private setting. You cannot do this publicly. But I’d still question if it’s worth the effort. The GB probably knows the reasoning.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Uh, basically you want to tell the GB that your boss is not doing the job and neither is she doing her job.

      Probably a good time for “skip-its”. As in, skip the whole conversation.

      You can tell yourself that you are no longer with this company and that alone stands as you having the final word.
      You can also tell yourself that is not up to you to train GB in how to do her job. They are not paying you enough to train that high up the ladder.

      People don’t leave companies where everything is just perfect.

      1. DC*

        Thank you. I appreciate this advice, and think I needed to hear it plainly laid out.

        I am working on letting go of my anxiety around leaving two coworkers in this situation.

  55. Lost in the Library*

    I have a job interview in about 4 hours and I am nervous as hell. I’m slowly starting to develop a self-defeating attitude towards this interview, which… obviously isn’t great!

    I guess I’m starting to psych myself out because a) this opportunity would be soooo good and b) I interviewed for the same position two months ago (and wasn’t chosen) and took my chances and re-applied when it was re-posted. It’s for a 1-year mat leave position, so I think whoever beat me out wasn’t able to make it or there was some issue with starting… because the job was posted on the start date. Because of this I feel like, ugh, maybe they know I suck and are just interviewing me to kill time? I don’t feel confident because if I was good, wouldn’t they have hired me initially? I can’t stop thinking about this.

    I just don’t know how to calm myself.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Breathe in slowly while counting 1, 2, 3.
      Breathe out slowly while counting 1, 2, 3.

      Keep doing that. You’ll be fine as long as you remember to breathe. :D

    2. Ruth (UK)*

      Remember, they wouldn’t bother to interview you unless they thought they might reasonably want to hire you. Of course that doesn’t mean they WILL hire you, but if they already knew they didn’t want to, they would not waste their time with an interview. They’re not just doing it to kill time.

      1. Ruth (UK)*

        sorry to double comment but I posted too early. As for “because if I was good, wouldn’t they have hired me initially?” – that’s not necessarily so. You have no idea who the other candidate(s) are/were and there are SO many possibilities. Sometimes people will interview someone and decide they know they don’t want to hire them, sometimes they would want to hire them if there was not a stronger candidate. Maybe they would have been really excited to hire them but they had a REALLY strong candidate. Maybe the 2 (or 3, or more…) top candidates were all super impressive and it was a really difficult choice – they might both/all have been a great fit but they had to choose one. And so on…

    3. Alice*

      It’s super unusual IME for a hiring committee to spend time on someone when there’s no chance of that person being hired. Especially the second time! Deep breaths, maybe stretch a little, and good luck!

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Your qualified, because they are offering you the interview. Now, go do those breathing exercises Amber Rose suggested.

  56. Amber Rose*

    Friday Funny Story:

    Yesterday we were talking about our charity fundraising efforts and my boss got all excited all of a sudden.
    “Follow me! Come on!” she stage-whispered, waving at us and running off like a little kid showing off their secret hide out.

    She went into the lobby and unlocked a secret friggin’ room and pulled out, I’m not kidding, a giant cardboard box full of booze. A bunch of 40’s of rum, vodka and whiskey.

    “I know where all the alcohol is!” She said happily, and then started handing the bottles to us.
    My boss is the booze fairy.

    We’re gonna raffle them off. :D

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Oh, I HATE to be a possible spoilsport, but if you’re in the US, check the legality of that. I know an ATF agent… a bottle or three in a church”s gift basket raffle can be overlooked. But you don’t want to do anything that smacks of sales. This country’s enforced liquor laws all the way back to George Washington & the Whiskey Tax Rebellion.

  57. Environmental Compliance*

    Update on our Violation Central area: since Problem Operator left…. we have had *no* violations. We have also not had any weird probe malfunctions, no significant pump malfunctions, no random operational malfunctions…. It has been *smooth*, ya’ll. And this is with staff replacing PO that have had minimal training (we are currently running with some additional outside support staff from a consultant until they’re fully trained, but they still had a week and a half until those staff members started – and they did fantastic!!!). Hell, everyone has been in a better mood that has to go in that area.

    However, Parent Company Director has had some discussions with me in terms of how the whole thing was handled and how information has been passed to Parent Company. They have been very clear with me that I am doing well and they 100% support my work & process, but they had a lot of questions on how I pass information to Boss/Boss’s Boss, what type of reports, what happened in that whole shenanigan series from my perspective, etc. I have been directed now to cc PCD in on any type of violation/near miss/similar interaction from now on. So that’s interesting.

    We also lost our engineer this week with about 2 day notice, which was a bit strange. I believe they were here on contract, but I thought it ended at the end of the month, so it really seems like they cut loose early. I’m also hearing rumors that we are about to lose the equivalent of an entire shift of operators and about 20% of my management level (and one above me). Also interesting.

    I also have a phone interview this afternoon at a consulting firm that I’m decently excited about, so I’m hoping that goes well.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Phone interview went FANTASTIC! I’m pretty drawn to the company, and it sounds like they have a variety of things I could be involved in, and they were quite verbal about how very interested they are in my skillset.

      Interview next Thursday, ya’ll!!

      3. Environmental Compliance*

        Thanks all!

        Excuse me while I panic about having nothing to wear because I wear jeans and a t shirt to current Job and why are all my interview shirts too chilly for winter??? Is it still appropriate to wear a nice sweater over a collared shirt?

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          Yes, that can work for business casual. Good luck on the interview! You can also get a thrift store blazer and throw it over almost ANYTHING and make it look businesslike.

  58. llama life*

    Where I work, I don’t do the primary function of the workplace (kind of like a llama grooming facility where 100 employees are llama groomers, there’s a handful of llama vets, but I make llama food, and while there are llama vets and groomers at other sites, ours is the only one with my role).

    Because of this, my supervisor is busy with llamas and related things pretty much all day. I don’t get feedback from my supervisor, and rarely see them. I don’t know what the expectations are, but I’ve been told that there have not been any complaints about me. Where should I go to get guidance about what to do in my role? I was trained by the last person in this role, and in the beginning when I asked questions I was referred to them, so I stopped asking questions. The head boss is trying to find someone in the llama food community for me to have as a peer group for feedback, but until then, I still feel like I’m not sure how to tell how I’m doing or what is expected of me.

    Any advice?

    1. pieces_of_flair*

      Your supervisor needs some way to evaluate your performance! Do you have a job description? If so, start there. It should clearly outline the duties and expectations of the job. If you don’t have one or if it’s vague or incomplete, it would be a good exercise for you to create one yourself based on your understanding of the job and what you’ve been doing. Then bring it to your supervisor and ask them to review it and take whatever steps are necessary to make it “official.”

    2. Pip*

      Can you survey the llama groomers and llama vets to see if there is anything you could do to make their jobs easier or to make the llamas healthier and fluffier? Basically try to find out how to develop your role to better serve the business.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Check to see if the llamas are eating the food?
      Not really trying to be funny here. Some jobs it is possible to follow our work along to see how it is used or how well it is received once it gets to its destination.
      Using your llama example, you could ask the vets if they notice certain nutrients missing from the llama’s diet and impacting their health.
      You could probably ask the experienced groomers if they notice dietary issues or if they notice nutritional needs change with the seasons. (My hair stylist knows way too much about my health and life habits. She can’t help that, it’s part of what she observes.)
      Or perhaps you could check the with the ones who feed the llamas to make sure they have enough food each day/each week.
      Can you reduce costs in any way?
      Can you streamline anything to make it more efficient or more accurate?

  59. Batgirl*

    Is it a good idea to leave a job if your boss is monitoring you over cameras?
    I work in a school and teach students in small groups who need extra help. When I started two years ago I knew the head was not the greatest, but figured I was way out of her sphere. I used to have a small private office, and had loads of success improving pupils ability to access lessons.This led them to extend the intervention programme, giving us a new, larger (exciting) space.
    Unfortunately the room is the former exclusion room and is kitted out with cameras. Ever since I asked the head for some funding for supplies, she’s taken a super keen interest in the room and appears to be watching a LOT. From things she’s said to me, I know she must be watching most lessons of the day. My boss has also told me she’s been less than complimentary, asking why I’m only testing one student at a time (it’s the way the test we use is administered). She’s also complained she ‘can’t see us doing anything’ when students are on laptops. They’re actually getting hundreds of questions correct after practicing the skills on a game format, while I monitor and help. It’s a program we spent lots of money on. I don’t know what she expects to see.
    She’s also started talking about getting ‘Just one person’ to do my subject and the other intervention subject (So both maths and English). I’m only qualified in my subject so she started talking about getting a primary school teacher to do both jobs!…..My job is permanent so I can’t be fired easily. Should I go anyway?

      1. valentine*

        Is it a good idea to leave a job if your boss is monitoring you over cameras?
        Yes, but it’s worth a last-ditch “We need the students to feel safe and trusted, so how should I go about covering those cameras?” Maybe your boss would support you just having the maintenance or security people do it? If the testing or anything requires privacy, you can make it about ensuring no one’s able to use the cameras to violate same. If the room makes a good hiding place, you’ll want to remove the cameras for security purposes. (This would make more sense in the US, but, still.)

        Also: Do they really not need consent? Is there audio or recording capability?
        Aren’t the cameras better used elsewhere?
        Did they buy new cameras for the current exclusion room?

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      That is super, super creepy & a giant overstep. Holy moly.

      Is there anyone you can talk to above her? HR? This is…. not okay. Can you actually have those types of video feeds when it’s students?? IANAL, but that doesn’t sit well with me at all.

    3. Troutwaxer*

      On one hand, hate bosses like that. I just hate them. On the other hand, what are your metrics? How does that work? (“Boss watching through camera” isn’t a metric, it’s a horror show.) In other words, how do you convince someone that you’re doing a good job? (And why do you even have a boss who doesn’t understand that the test is properly done one-on-one?)

      1. Batgirl*

        My metrics are to get improved test results – which I consistently do! She knows I improve reading ages by an average of three years in a year. Before my arrival they were dropping. Ofsted came in to observe me and were raving about the intervention program. The rest of the school not so much.
        Unfortunately she’s not very interested in the tests or courses we use. But she’s very interested in how many students we can cram in. Or how we can do with less staff.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          OK, so you’ve got a metric and the boss is aware of those metrics and presumably tracking them… In an ideal world, you’d say “Hey stupid, stop complaining about me doing the job the right way and get us some grant money, right now!” Obviously you can’t do that. But maybe you can say push back a little, something like, “I don’t understand why you’re so negative. My metrics are awesome and you’ve got to be aware of that. Is there something going on I need to know about?”

          My wife, BTW, was an English teacher in a very poor area and one of the ways she brought up the student’s grade level was to have a classroom library. She’d use a tactic she called “Bait and switch.” What this meant was that she’d have lots of media tie-ins with popular shows. So she’d have, for example (this was in the 1990s) Buffy the Vampire Slayer comic books, which the kids would then read as they were the easiest thing available in the classroom library. Once they were done with all the Buffy comic books and asking for more, she’d move them to the Buffy graphic novels. (“I’m really sorry, but I don’t have any more comic books. But here’s a Buffy graphic novel.”) Then she’d move them on to the Buffy chapterbooks, with the same apologetic tone in her voice. By the time the kid was done with the Buffy chapterbook my wife would have Sarah Michelle Gellar’s biography on her desk, ready and waiting…

    4. voyager1*

      Wow, I am guessing this is in UK (judging by some spellings). I don’t think cameras by themselves are bad, but how your boss is using them seems a over reach. Also if she has issues with your teaching she needs to go to you.

      But the cameras themselves wouldn’t bother me. As a parent I am kind of glad there. As an American sadly schools are dangerous targets for violence so I can see why they are there. The UK seems safer though.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Totally agree on how the cameras are being used is your tell-tale. Just recently I went and worked for another boss as a one day thing. When I got there, he had another monitor on his desk. That additional monitor was to MY computer! I thought, “oh nooooo, what is this!”

        It was fine. As we worked along he was very fast and very accurate with following what I was doing. If he wanted something specific he was polite and clear. It went surprisingly well. What I thought would be awful turned out okay because of HOW he used what he saw on his monitor. He did not ask stupid questions like you show here. He asked for my thoughts on things and listened. Yeah, this guy watches my every key stroke as we work along and I am okay with that. I never thought I would say that about someone, but it goes to show it can be done. (The work can be complex and go at a fast clip considering how complex it can be. He was doing his own work as well as watching my work. Yeah, intense work but okay boss.)

        1. Batgirl*

          I agree with you that I wouldn’t mind if she knew what she was looking at. In fact she was impressed after seeing a student in danger of exclusion being given a certificate. She asked why and I said he’d broken our all time record (1000 correct tasks without a mistake), but generally she has no idea what we are doing.

  60. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

    I’m not asking for advice… just venting…

    One of my coworkers, who is past retirement age and probably doesn’t still need to be working, financially speaking, celebrated his 50-year anniversary with the company (in all of its various incarnations).

    We gave him a card, and his boss got him a plaque, and our grandboss got us a big cake, and the company gave him… a laser-printed “certificate of recognition”. Not even a gold seal on it or anything. It’s not worth its weight in crap.

    Previously, the company used to give recognition gifts in the form of points that could be spent in a special catalog. But I guess they’ve done away with that frippery. Or maybe the gifts just don’t go as high as 50 years because they don’t like old people (seriously they don’t and it’s obvious, but not in a way that’s legally significant).

    What’s the most enraging non-recognition you’ve ever witnessed for an esteemed colleague (or yourself)? Cuz I think that crappy laser-printed 20# certificate is a shitty way to say “thanks for your patience, loyalty, and expertise.”

    1. JJ*

      I had a client once who gave one of their salespeople who’d hit his 50th anniversary a sad plaque. Think an 8×10″ wooden plaque with…a 3″ stainless steel circle (maybe supposed to be a plate) with his name on it. The rest of the plaque was empty. It was accompanied by a $100 Amazon gift card. This man is in his 80s, and I’m certain he doesn’t shop on Amazon. What makes it worse? This company sells mattresses that cost more than a brand new car ($25k+, easily). Over 50 years, he’s generated millions of dollars in profit, and they couldn’t spend more than $175 on a crappy plaque and a gift card he’ll never use.

      1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

        Wow, that sounds like it was made by a kid in shop class. It is damned sad when the company won’t pony up for a loyal, longtime employee. If they’re gonna be cheap, at least give him a better looking plaque. (He can easily give the gift card to the relative to order something for him, though. Like a nicer plaque, LOL)

        (I would love to sleep on a mattress that costs more than a car, but unless it does cool tricks, I doubt it’s worth that much.)

        1. JJ*

          I saw how the mattresses were made (by hand), laid on them, and saw the customer complaints about them–they’re nothing special. Also, they weigh upwards of a hundred pounds, and you’re supposed to flip them every three months… (Although I’d imagine if you can pay that much for a mattress, you can probably afford to have someone flip the mattress for you!)

      2. willow19*

        If he is in his 80s and still in the workforce, why do you assume he does not shop on Amazon? Lots of oldsters are tech-savvy!

        1. JJ*

          Haha, it’s not solely because of his age, it’s because I knew him personally. He only believes in shopping the old fashioned way. (The company he works for doesn’t do e-commerce.)

    2. DCGirl*

      I worked for a company that gave you a catalog where you could pick a gift based on your years of services. The way it was supposed to work was that HR dropped a kit to the manager that included the catalog, instructions telling the manager to make a short speech and hand the catalog to the employee during a team meeting, a blank card that the manager was supposed to sign with instructions on how to writer a personalized message…. HR stuck a Post-it with the anniversary employee’s name on it to the kit before dropping it off to the manager.

      I came back from lunch today to find the the packet on my chair with HR’s Post-it still on it, with my name spelled wrong by HR, and the full kit including all the instructions my manager ignored and a blank, unsigned card still inside.

      I felt so appreciated that day — NOT.

      1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

        We had a similar deal at one of my ex-employers. My boss thoughtfully removed the manager’s instructions before dumping the catalog on my chair. He also withheld the gift for several weeks because he didn’t feel like making the speech. But eventually I got a watch, plus everyone spelled my name right.

        I don’t know if there was ever a card. If so, I didn’t get it. But then, this was a guy who once told me to my face that he didn’t like me. Taking the extra steps to make me feel that the company didn’t like me either – that was really special.

        Wow. So many ways to dis your employees on their anniversary…

    3. Throwaway123*

      Five dollar gift card to Starbucks. I would have been happier with a nice note or a nice write up.

      1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

        If it’s got to be a $5 starbucks card, I’d rather they just handed me a coffee! Then I don’t have to go anywhere to spend my teeny little card!

    4. Zona the Great*

      A similarly-seasoned woman in the bank I worked in when I was a teen was forced to retire before she was willing or financially able. She was really good at her work but she was cooky and eccentric; she wasn’t like the stuffy people she worked with. She was devastated when she was told by the boss’s *Admin Assist*, not the boss himself, that she would be done by the end of the month. When he got word that she was not doing well with the news, he walked up to her and told her she could throw herself a retirement party if she wanted.

      1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

        It says something about the depth of my disappointment in my own employers that I think this doesn’t sound so horrible, because he okayed a party. When our admin was forced into early retirement, we all had to pitch in for the cost of her party; the company wouldn’t pay for it.

    5. Notthemomma*

      In front of a large group, senior manager gave me a gift -branded sweatshirt, far too small, was effusive in his praise on my secretarial skills and finished with a call for a round of applause for Amy.

      I was an associate director
      My name is not Amy
      Sweatshirt was embroidered with Amy’s name

    6. CheeryO*

      Laughing over this, because all we get are sad certificates. If you make it to 40 years, you get a sad certificate and a 30 minute party with some baked goods. Granted, we’re state government, so it’s apples and oranges.

      1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

        Oooh, apples and oranges! Better than nothing.

        Well, I’m at least satisfied that what my coworker got wasn’t unusually bad. I think it’s unfortunate that employers don’t understand (or don’t care) why it’s important to recognize people who have stuck around when, in many cases, they could have gone elsewhere.

        To me, the subtext is always “you’re lucky we don’t fire you.” Yowza, my morale just skyrocketed.

    7. Ebrofin*

      I was pushed into retirement when my job (and 500+ others) were off-shored to India. My retirement gift was a statuette of the Taj Mahal.

      1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

        I wasn’t planning on handing out prizes, but if I were, I would give one to you. Unfortunately it would just be a paper-cutout model of the Taj Mahal. (Printed in COLOR!)

    8. Jaid*

      I got my 20 year plaque mailed to me, because they didn’t know what unit I was in.

      I’ve been in the same unit since 2005. *rolls eyes*

    9. Not So NewReader*

      My story is no where near as bad as other people’s. But it just left me asking, why-why-why.
      They gave me a cross pen that did not work. The ink skipped. It had my name on it. I think someone used a label maker to get my name on the pen.

      Years later they gave me another Cross pen. (I was not supposed to receive a second one.) It, too, skipped. At that point I figured out the pen was not comfy in my hand either. I think they still had that same label maker.

      The pens were very coveted but I am not sure why as the ink skipped. I tossed both of mine out.
      Yes, I could have looked into cartridges, but I did not bother because I never had a pen from that brand that I liked.
      They should have just handed me the cash.

      1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

        I’ve never had a bad Cross pen that I bought new, but the refills can come from anywhere and be crap. Plus, if they’re using a label maker to put your name on it, they can probably remove names too… meaning you may even have had a used pen that they put a crap refill into.

        (And even my better new Cross pens were never my favorite. But don’t get me started talking about pens.)

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ll reverse thst: where a friend works, management is insisting on a surprise party for someone who specifically requested no public recognition of her retirement.
      She had decided to retire but not said when… and then her husband had an expensive medical emergency. And found out the Co had already assigned her (!) an end date, and they won’t change it.
      So she’s feeling fired and doesn’t want a party–but they’re not letting it go her way.

      1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

        There’s nothing like forced merriment to convince a determined jerk that everything is fine.

  61. msluxe*

    Hi, everyone!
    I’ve been looking for a full time job now for about a month and I’ve been to several interviews. I seem to be attracting weird managers who automatically tell me to my face that I can’t do the job. I ask them to expand why they believe I can’t do the job (sales, receptionist, and office work. I have 6 years of retail experience). They tell me that they just “know” I can’t do the job because I have no experience and that I’m a loser. I come into the interview super confident, happy, and bubbly as well as professional. Why do people automatically assume I can’t do the job? These people have never seen my work ethic, so why are they judging me so harshly? I’m sick of people telling me that I can’t do something or become someone I want to become. It feels like elementary school all over again because I was bullied and ostracized by my classmates.

    1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

      These people sound like assholes that no one should work for. I hope when they finally do offer someone the job, it’s refused and the applicant says “I’m saying no because of YOU.”

      But enough of my fantasy world. I don’t see how you can be attracting this warthogs. I’m wondering, is it possible that you’re setting your sights too low and that’s why you’re meeting with the bottom of the barrel?

      Seriously, this can’t be because of you. These people don’t even know you. I was bullied and ostracized in grade school too, but one thing I learned really well was that their opinions were more a reflection of their own hangups than about me, and therefore, were totally irrelevant to who I was or what I might become.

      I mean, think, what kind of LOSER would invite someone to interview for the job only to say that you’re not qualified? This is so not about you. Shake it off as best you can.

    2. pally*

      At least they’ve shown their true colors before you got the chance to work with them. So less waste of your time.

      How are they arriving at the assertion that you can’t do the job? Clearly they read your application or resume and asked you to come for an interview-right? Folks usually bring candidates in for an interview because they think you DO have the skills and abilities to do the job. Or, they are absolute psychos who like to abuse people.

      If they are naming skills you don’t have, can you think of how you do meet the job requirement? For example: if they tell you you have no sales experience, can you explain how retail is all about sales ?

      1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

        Good point – you’re looking for an office job. Retail isn’t office work, but there is some crossover, like if you have to do inventory or any kind of supervision. Retail also often requires you to think on your feet (literally), which is a highly desirable trait in an admin as well.

        But I’m not sure you should waste your breath arguing with someone who disses you right out of the gate, if that’s what’s happening. But if they are saying things like “Have you ever done X” and you just say “no” when you could maybe say “I’ve done W, which is similar in that I had to yada yada yada” you might be missing an opportunity.

        1. paperpusher*

          The retail to office work transition can be hard, agreed.

          If you walk in the front door and they greet you with “Hey, you’re a loser!” then you are meeting a strange number of terrible people, period, and you’re better off not working for them.

          If you’re struggling in interviews, could it be possible that you’re having a hard time explaining how your work relates? Do you really understand what the jobs entail, and what you’d have to learn to do them well? Are you unintentionally misrepresenting your experience? (I used to give project lead experience as management experience, luckily employers could sense my naivety through the screen and never called me in for an interview.)

    3. Parenthetically*

      “I have no experience and that I’m a loser.”

      You have interviewerS, plural, calling you a loser to your FACE? I’m sorry you’ve been unlucky, but these people are extreme outliers. Keep at it.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, I also wonder, if this is happening regularly, if there’s something msluxe could do to tweak her searches and filter this kind of employer out better. Maybe look at larger employers over smaller or more culturally conventional fields rather than fields where people feel freer to let it all hang out? Of course, if this is just how things work in that area, it might not be possible to avoid.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          Or maybe it’s a matter of some kind of status signalling that’s expected of the job? The way the OP dresses or something?

          1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

            Well, I’d say calling an applicant a loser to her face is also a kind of status signalling, and it’s not a good signal.

            1. Troutwaxer*

              If it had just happened once, I wouldn’t be asking the question. But unless I misread the OP’s question, it has happened multiple times. So while the behavior of the interviewers is definitely obnoxious, the fact that it’s happened multiple times motivates me to ask if there’s a common thread.

              1. WellRed*

                I agree. Once is an outlier, everyone saying it points to … something else. Also, are they really calling you a loser or are you reading too much into it? What does your resume look like? Are you getting interviews? How are you coming across in interviews?

    4. MMB*

      Does the word “loser” actually come out of their mouth or do you just get the impression that that is what they are saying?

      1. LilySparrow*

        Yes, that’s my question as well. I have never heard of this kind of outlandish behavior on such a scale.

        Even the awful bosses Ive seen who wind up verbally abusing employees don’t lead with it in the interview!

        This is just bizarre, and if this is literally what they say, I wonder where this place is, or what sort of offices you’re applying to?

  62. Anonymoose Today*

    I had an interview for a non-teaching faculty job (library), that I think went fairly well, to the point where I have a question on something I hadn’t thought of before.

    How do contracts work for those positions? I know they are yearly, but does that mean I can’t leave until my contract is up if I want? That if I wanted to leave for another year it would have to be timed perfectly?

    1. Academic Librarian at a State U*

      Do not worry about “the contract”
      There is an expectation in a teaching institution that people do not “bail” in the middle of the semester as that is a huge burden for your colleagues. But you are not bound by hiring date.
      At our institution the contract could mean that there is a funding source that is finite or it could only mean that this is a position dependent on yearly renewal.
      You can email the hiring committee and ask how “this institution” defines contract.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      You are not bound by the contract. You can leave whenever you like. However, it is generally expected in academic libraries that you work out the semester if you are teaching (if you’re not, there’s some flexibility on this) and that you give way more notice than in normal jobs. Usually 30 days is the minimum, but some people give as much as 3 months. So, just be aware of that. However, you should/can ask to review the faculty handbook and that should cover the contract situation for you.

  63. Anna Versary*

    I have been promoted! New manager for a small team, and worrying a little bit about one of my new direct reports, Aaron. Aaron has a reputation for being overconfident and ambitious, very sure of himself. He has made no secret of wanting to leave his current position for something better but no openings have suited his sense of self. He is not as good at his job as he thinks he is—has not met all his deliverables in the past, etc. I have exceeded my targets and have good people skills, which is why I got promoted.

    A manager in a different dept pulled me aside last week and let me know quietly that apparently Alex has had trouble in the past taking feedback from female supervisors. To be fair (?) to Alex, I’ve also personally seen him have issues with a male supervisor. I am a woman. I have not worked directly with him in the past, just observed behavior. We have not had personal conflict nor are we friends.

    How would you approach supervising him? If it matters, I am a few years older than him and neither of us are white.

    1. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

      I am not a manager, but fwiw, I once got a new manager who apparently had been told (by whom, I know not) that I was a problem employee, and that’s how she saw me, and talked about me behind my back, and boy did we get off on the wrong foot. Don’t let that happen.

      But if you’ve already seen him (Alex? Aaron?) in action, and it wasn’t even gender-driven, I dunno… approach him the same way you’d approach anyone, so he doesn’t feel like he’s being singled out before he’s done anything wrong. Maybe your aura of quiet yet strong authority will convince him to behave. You never know.

      And congrats on the promotion :-)

      1. Anna Versary*

        haha, midway thru I forgot which fake name I was using!

        Thanks for the perspective and the congrats. I definitely don’t want to single him out if I don’t have to.

    2. NW Mossy*

      The best advice I got for coming in as the new leader is to observe your team for yourself before firming up any conclusions about them. Other inputs you have (other leaders’ opinions, your own history with the person as a colleague/level peer) are useful, but you’ve got a new vantage point and new dynamic that change things a lot. Everything you’ve seen and been told can be true, but you’re looking at it through a new lens.

      We got into this a bit earlier this week on the “what do you do when you inherit a bad employee?” letter, but what most managers find over the course of their work is that past performance does not perfectly predict future results. Middling employees can blossom under better leadership, while superstars can struggle when their new leader has substantially different expectations than their old one did. I’m in a situation right now where I have former direct reports reaching out for help in adjusting to their new boss’s style (which, admittedly, is very different from mine).

      Your instincts to watch and react to what he shows you are spot-on. Use those observations to fuel your feedback, both positive and negative. See how he responds – does he take the feedback on board and adjust his behavior to do more of what works and less of what doesn’t? If so, you’re likely on a good heading for a productive relationship with him. If he fights you on it, that’s a sign that he’s going to need more intensive management.

      1. Anna Versary*

        Thank you so much for your detailed thoughts. I missed that letter from earlier this week so I will look for it as well.

  64. Public Facing Librarian*

    Last Saturday an attendee at a professional development workshop confronted me for 15 minutes during the registration checkin to re-hash what they considered my failings regarding a public event from from last Spring that they felt were not adequately addressed at that time.
    To recap- my director as well as our Friends of the Library board affirmed that my response was the appropriate one for the circumstances and have been supportive of my work in both the public arena and in my yearly performance review.
    I responded in the moment with “I understand your point of view” “I honor your work in this area” (It has been my experience that no response will satisfy this individual and they are an important member of my small community) They continued to berate me and criticize my work as a colleague took over the line for check in.
    In retrospect, I am at a loss. What would be the appropriate response in this kind of moment? Mostly I kept quiet as the words that would have come from my mouth would have been snarky and rude and I know that I would never regret anything that I did not say.
    I am assuming there will be a “next time”

    1. Purt's Peas*

      If your director is on your side, I think you should talk with them about passing this person off onto them. For example, being able to say, “Thank you for the feedback. Let me bring you to talk to Director about this,” and then the director would optimally take over the conversation and set you free. This is one of the most important things they could do for you as a boss.

      1. Public Facing Librarian*

        Previously I have recommended that they speak to the director about their concerns but they have taken the opportunity. The Director has only been at one event where this sort of thing has happened and seemed surprised that I took the criticism as seriously as I do. When I reported this last incident, my director noted that this just seemed to be what this person did and was not going to let go. I have been trying. I keep thinking what I wished I had had Matilda Jefferies’ language and will use it in the future.

        ‘“I understand your point of view,” your next sentence is “but unfortunately I don’t have time to discuss it now.” Then you deliberately turn away and address the next person in line. If the original complainer keeps talking, you can say “you’re welcome to make an appointment during my office hours” or whatever variation makes the most sense. Repeat as many times as necessary. Or refer them to your boss, if you know she’ll have your back – “I understand this is a serious problem for you; perhaps you should give Jane a call to discuss.”

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Ouch, I’m sorry that happened to you. For next time, I think you can just refuse to engage. Remember you’re not there to be a good listener – you’re there to check people through the line. So after “I understand your point of view,” your next sentence is “but unfortunately I don’t have time to discuss it now.” Then you deliberately turn away and address the next person in line. If the original complainer keeps talking, you can say “you’re welcome to make an appointment during my office hours” or whatever variation makes the most sense. Repeat as many times as necessary. Or refer them to your boss, if you know she’ll have your back – “I understand this is a serious problem for you; perhaps you should give Jane a call to discuss.”

      The people in the line will help you as well, assuming there’s a reason they want to be there and get checked in. They’ll take their cues from you. As you’ve seen, they won’t likely interrupt if you appear to be talking to Crankypants, but you’re clearly trying to move the line along, they’ll be more comfortable interrupting her or going around her to get checked in. Good luck!

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        This is all excellent advice. I think I would also try adding to your responses something like, “If you have complaints, than you are more than welcome to fill out X form and/or contact my Director. Let me give you her card. I always appreciate your feedback ” And then go back to checking people in, doing whatever you were doing.

      1. Public Facing Librarian*

        My director doesn’t think there is anything to defend. A public statement was crafted by the director and PR after the program and distributed on the library website. At this point, everyone has the freedom of expression. They are free to express. I need to get a thicker skin.

        1. valentine*

          I need to get a thicker skin.
          Or a ban and restraining order. Seriously, this is the kind of thing that’s in the lead-up to, well, a larger crime.

          They are free to express.
          This person is harassing you and has done do at your workplace and online. (I don’t recall if they were addressing or tagging you.) You need someone in power to take this seriously and to at least coordinate a blockade to keep this person from you. It doesn’t make any sense that just because you’re public-facing, someone “important” gets to go after you whenever they want. They have a right elsewhere (I’m assuming you’d ban a patron for this behavior and go to court over it, if necessary) to vent their spleen, but you shouldn’t be obliged to be their captive audience. Six months is a very long time to dedicate yourself to berating someone, and there’s no end in sight.

          1. Hi there*

            The response below is perfect, reminding the person that the Board et al. discussed this thoroughly at the time, but I agree with this comment that the person is basically harassing you now. They don’t get license to do so just because they are important, and your bosses should be protecting you even more because of that person’s status. I’d tell your Director that this keeps happening and that next time you are going to bump it up by saying say “Director (or Board Chair) would like to discuss this with you.” and shut down the conversation.

    4. tangerineRose*

      How about saying “my director as well as our Friends of the Library board affirmed that my response was the appropriate one for the circumstances” and then walking away?

  65. Sylvan*

    How do you all avoid getting sick when your coworkers come to work sick?

    I’m getting knocked on my ass by something or other every 4-6 weeks. Right now, I’m sick and having a chronic illness issue at the same time.

    I wash my hands regularly, use hand sanitizer before I eat at my desk, and clean my cube weekly. I’m careful outside of work. However, it doesn’t seem to be enough. I think my manager is frustrated by the amount of time off I take, I’m frustrated by getting sick frequently, and I kind of hate having a temporary cold/flu on top of chronic illness.

    1. GigglyPuff*

      Don’t touch anything outside your area. Seriously I don’t touch anything with my fingers anymore and I haven’t gotten sick in over two years when I used to get two colds a year. Use sleeves or side/backs of hands, even bathroom stuff even if you’re going to wash your hands. I also wipe my office door handle with Clorox wipe during flu season. I don’t even wash my hands more or anything because that means I’m touching more contamination surfaces.

    2. pally*

      What about commonly shared items- paperwork, office equipment, door handles, kitchen door handles (refrigerator, cabinet, microwave)?
      I know you are washing your hands. Maybe try sanitizing your hands after handling all shared items things? Can the ‘sickies’ be asked to wear a mask?

      1. Sylvan*

        Oof, I go to the kitchen/break room at least once a day. To use the fridge, cabinets, microwave, and coffee maker. Good idea to clean my hands after that.

        I don’t think I can get sick people to change anything they’re doing, unfortunately.

    3. Earthwalker*

      My husband is immune deficient so I really really need to avoid getting sick. I’m pretty attentive to whatever I just touched that others may have touched before me. Doorknob? Credit card pin pad? Gas pump handle? Control panel on the department printer? Grocery cart handle? I have a 2 oz bottle of alcohol with me at all times and make good use of it. Your phones – cell and office line – keyboard and mouse need frequent sanitizing too, since it’s easy to transfer germs onto them without realizing. A company nurse advised (after a hepatitis scare) that in the restroom we take a towel to dry our hands after washing then use the same towel to turn off the faucet and open the door, and tossing it into the basket on the way out, touching nothing with bare hands. Sometimes you can open doors with the tail of a jacket or pull a sweater sleeve down over your fingers and not touch the handles. (Grandma used to say “Never touch a door handle except with your hankie,” but then, she lived when people had hankies and didn’t have antibiotics.)

    4. Delphine*

      Have you talked to your doctor about this? It’s unusual to be sick with the cold that frequently.

      The other option is going the other direction. Stop over-sanitizing. Cutting out hand sanitizer and antibacterial cleansers and using simple soap might help.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        +1

        You might actually be weakening your immune system’s ability to deal with infections. Also, washing your hands with soap and warm water is more effective than hand sanitizer.

    5. Quandong*

      Apart from paying more attention to what surfaces you touch, please do whatever you can to avoid shared phones at work. Definitely don’t use any communal cutlery or glasses or mugs.

      What worked for me in addition to minimizing contact with surfaces at work was training myself to stop touching my face at all. It took time but I highly recommend it!

      Also, as a last resort, would you be able to wear a surgical mask when your coworkers have the type of sickness where they sneeze and cough in the air near where you sit?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        After reading here about someone’s co-irker rinsing his coffee cup and calling it clean without soap or hot water… make sure you have your own cup so you can be sure it’s clean. Consider one with a lid against sneezes.
        When my mom worked the hospital info desk (classic little old lady in pink uniform!), they all used rubbing alcohol on the phone & keyboard at the start of a shift. (Use a cloth & bottle if you dislike individually wrapped disposables.)
        I second the commenter who said soap&water work better than hand sanitizer.
        I’ll add the dos&don’ts from my great-aunts (retired nurses) when pink-eye & strep swept through my school. Avoid touching your eyes, nose & mouth unless you’ve just washed your hands. Don’t share makeup or lip balm or take a drag off someone else’s cigarette. (I dont smoke! I protested.) Don’t share toothpaste tubes. If you get sick, discard or wipe down your eyeliner & lipstick with alcohol. For strep replace your toothbrush after 2 days of antibiotics.
        Oh and about the surgical mask idea? Look at kpop masks on amazon, they’ve got fabric ones that look cute & cartoon & comfortable.

  66. UK English vs US English Dilemma*

    I have a question about applying for a job at an organization that uses UK English versus US English and was wondering if anyone has advice! Let’s say the organization is officially named “The Centre for Programmes”. I would use the proper name in my cover letter (“I’m interested in working for The Centre for Programmes…”). However, if I’m just using those terms later on in a general sense, is it odd to then have them in US English? Such as writing “program director” or “centers” as opposed to “programme director” and “centres”…

    I would definitely use UK English if I was hired into a position and the organization wanted me to be consistent with their spelling, but I’m not sure about best practices for the cover letter! It would be clear that I’m applying from the US so I don’t know if they’d think it’s weird if I do go with the UK English spelling of all words (“organisations” is another example as I’m drafting my letter). Any suggestions/anecdotal feedback you may have would be greatly appreciated.

    1. UK English vs US English Dilemma*

      Sorry, wanted to clarify–this organization (or organisation :) ) is based out of the UK but has remote openings

    2. fposte*

      I’ll be interested to hear from UK people–from the American side, I would have no problem with a UK person applying using UK English, and it wouldn’t be odd to me that they used US English terms/spelling when referring to US institutions. We have people working here who still do that.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Agreed. I think as long as you stay consistent with general terms/spelling (as opposed to titles & institution names), you should be fine either way.

        1. UK English vs US English Dilemma*

          Thank you both so much for your input! This is very helpful and reassuring because I initially thought US English wouldn’t be a big issue but then started to second-guess myself.

    3. UKCoffeeLover*

      Personally, if the company uses UK English, your application should be in UK English, especially if the recruiting manager is British.

      That’s just a personal opinion though.

    4. MonteCristo85*

      Probably too late in the day for someone to read this, but i would lean towards writing the way you normally would. You wouldn’t want to come across as someone you aren’t, as I think that would be jarring if you did end up getting to the in-person interview step. Also, if it isn’t your normal mode of writing, I’d think there would be more room for error or just weirdness in general coming, which I don’t think would be good either.

  67. DaniCalifornia*

    Welp I did it. I put in my notice at my toxic job and it went really well. I do not have another job lined up but I’m going to keep interviewing and there was just no way I could do another tax season. I did not outline any grievances but told them I needed to focus more time on school and finish my degree. Which is true because with a non toxic job I can finish school. So far there is shock but decent reactions to my news from coworkers. My boss took it well. I had been having feelings of unfairness about not being able to share why I was really leaving and that it was also due to nepotism/bad management, and that I felt so depleted from a job that I had to quit and our household would now be 1 income. But after doing it I realize that would have not changed anything, and even if done professionally, would have not been received well. (Also it seemed like several of the AAM articles recently have dealt with quitting/airing grievances and it made sense focus on the positive aspect of why I was leaving and thank them for the opportunities. I feel free and light and will soon be enjoying a beach vacation and the holidays before going back to the strict budget. (Thank goodness for budgets and savings!)

    Even better news is my awesome recruiter called with an open position and I have a first interview Monday!

    1. Auntie Social*

      Congrats!!! And don’t forget, it will soon be Festivus and the Airing of Grievances so you have that to look forward to. You can’t tell your boss but you can always tell us!!

  68. A Worker Bee*

    I could really use some advice right now because I’m at my wits end…. To make a long story short, I was out of work for a while after graduating college. It was an absolutely devastating job search and I pretty much lost confidence in myself and my abilities. Fast forward almost two years later, and a company finally answers me and I get a temp job. I crush the job, despite knowing nothing about the field, and my employers want to buy out my contract. The problem is that I hate the job sooo much. It’s thankless work and my coworkers aren’t exactly helping. I’ve been trying to find a new job but keep hitting dead ends. I feel so stuck and hopeless right now. What can I do fir motivation/ to kick start my search again?

    1. JohannaCabal*

      I would stick with the current role but keep looking. The saying that “it’s easier to find a job when you have a job” is true and it may take a while to find a new one. Plus, I’ve found it’s easier to look while employed because I’m less stressed about money and can be choosy about the next role.

    2. ten alpacas*

      Honestly, I flat out bribe myself to motivate myself. So, if the goal is 3 job applications per week, then give yourself a literal star for that. 4 stars and you get a reward. For motivating yourself *at* work … that so depends what you do, and why you hate it.

  69. tgif*

    My cubemate loves to chat and I finally used Allison’s advice yesterday and tried to be cheerful and polite, but assertive. I came in early because I needed to get some work done on a project and cubemate wanted to rant to me about certain coworkers. Fifteen minutes in with no end in sight, I just said, “Hey sorry cubemate! I actually really need to work on this project since the deadline is approaching. Maybe we can continue this another time!”

    This did not sit well with cubemate. Has been ignoring my usual good mornings and good nights since. I’m fine with this though.

    2. ArtK*

      You did exactly the right thing and cubemate’s response is entirely on them. If they get huffy after a very reasonable request like that, it’s their issue, not yours.

      Be aware, though, that if cubemate is prone to drama, they could possibly whine to the boss saying “tgif is being mean to meeeeeeeeeeeeee”.

      1. tangerineRose*

        Good for you! And if the co-worker whines to the boss, you can be prepared by saying something like “I asked cubemate if we could talk later so that I could get work done before the deadline.” Most bosses are going to be OK with wanting to get work done.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          “…I’ve never stopped saying good morning or asking about their weekend. And I let it drop if they’re not answering.”

  70. pieces_of_flair*

    I started a new job 2 weeks ago in a different department of an organization I’ve worked at for many years. I’m part of a newly created team. Our junior team member who started this week came from a different organization. One of the people our new team supports has a reputation for abusing staff. After a recent investigation, this person was moved to a new department and barred from supervising anyone. I am wondering if I should warn our junior team member about this person’s reputation or if that would just scare her unnecessarily. FWIW I have not witnessed any abuse firsthand and this person has been perfectly polite to me so far, but everyone I know who has worked with them has something negative to say.

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      Since those allegations were serious enough that the person was demoted and moved to a different position, then they sound serious enough that I think you should warn them, yeah. I’d also include information on how to report it if the abusers abuses the new person.

      I’d also consider if this person was targeting people within a certain group and if the reason you never saw it is because you’re not in that group.

  71. Possible Temp?*

    Hey all,

    I’m contemplating leaving my full-time job (that pays $18/hour, not a livable wage where I am) for a temp job that’s a one-year contract that pays $37/hour. It’s full-time and I would have to purchase my own healthcare benefits, I’m pretty sure. Not sure about how PTO works yet. Can anyone who has experience with contracting with a temp agency weigh in on this? I’m happy to answer any additional questions – just not sure what info would be useful.

    I’m in the US, AZ if it matters.

    1. LuckyClover*

      My friend who contracts makes great money, but has NO PTO or overtime in her contract. It was her first job after graduating, and it took so long to come to fruition she didn’t negotiate. Her boss still lets her take an unpaid sick day here and there, but even then there is an expectation of working from home (this may be specific to her company culture).
      Her contract just expired, and they are working on making her a new one. She is resolved to try to negotiate PTO, but no saying if that will happen.

      I think your best course of action is to ask upfront, and be prepared to tell them a # of days you are hoping to see.

      Good luck.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Price out health insurance on your own to see how much that’ll cut into your paycheck.
      Also, does the agency handle payroll taxes? Most do, but you want to make sure.

      I worked through an agency for years at the same company, and it was fine – the only big differences between me and a regular employee is that I was hourly, and told not to go over 40 hours unless OT was authorized, and I had go to through the agency to get raises.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      No experience with temp agencies, but healthcare can be incredibly expensive to have to pay yourself fully. When Hubs had to get COBRA coverage, it was a couple thousand a month rather than a couple hundred.

      1. ThatGirl*

        To be fair, COBRA is usually insanely expensive, whereas an individual marketplace plan (granted, with a higher deductible) can be much more affordable. I paid a couple hundred for a marketplace plan while I was unemployed; my COBRA would’ve been over a grand.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Yes – you just have to be proactive and price everything out. For us it worked out fine, and the higher deductible plan was what we wanted to begin with, but I’ve heard some horror stories from friends who needed the lower deductible plans or didn’t even think about insurance until it was really, really time sensitive, or didn’t necessarily realize they could shop around.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I know the typical rule of thumb is to double the pay rate to cover insurance and taxes. If you look at what you stand to make that’s….not much more that $18/hr following that rule of thumb. So I’d really dig into the cost of the benefits you’re losing. What are you going to have to pay for health insurance? Do you get sick time? PTO? Are you on your own for retirement savings? You may find that this pay check isn’t actually any higher than the one that’s a problem right now, and the lack of benefits may be a big problem.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Are you still an employee through the agency and not a 1099? I assume so because it’s rare that a temp agency is going to put you on a 1099, rare is in I haven’t heard of that happening even but it’s been awhile since I’ve done temp work, so things can change!

      You need to research healthcare options to see the price. In my case, I got no government credit so that may help you gauge it. Early 30s, for a 3000 deducible it was under $300.

      But if you’re older and have health issues you really need to keep under control and a high deductible will just screw you more, you’re looking at a lot more. My mom’s before her credit was upwards of 700/800 a month. It drastically depends on your personal needs and age when it comes to healthcare!

      If you’re paying $800 a month that’s 185 a week roughly. That’s 4.65 an hour. So you’ll be essentially making closer to $32 an hour if you break it down that way. But again, you need that healthcare coverage number to do the real math!

      Then of course take into consideration if there’s not paid time off and how often you tend to miss work. Yes there are risks involved if you’re normally healthy and something goes sideways. That’s always out there. But I never suggest going by doomsday scenarios when making a choice that’s just a year long!

    6. Lyudie*

      I haven’t contracted in years, but I never got paid time off when I did (for about 12 years in late ’90s/early to mid ’00s). My managers were generally good about me taking off when I needed to (which wasn’t often because I was in my 20s and didn’t get sick much) but it was always unpaid. Some will do PTO and other benefits but you will get less hourly. One agency I worked through actually had options you could choose from: decent benefits and lower pay, some benefits and medium pay, and no benefits and higher pay.

    7. Natalie*

      Assuming a marketplace plan that covers what you need won’t eat up all of that difference, I’d take it. But, I’d be super cautious about lifestyle creep, just in case your next job doesn’t pay as much or comes after a bit of a gap. That is, save as much of that extra money as you can. If your contract gets renewed, it will still spend the same next year. :)

    8. Possible Temp?*

      Wow, thank you everyone for the comments! Some more info: in between me posting that comment and now, I was just told that I’m going to be laid off at the end of December. Yay for cost-cutting. So…this has suddenly become a more pressing matter than I would like it to be.

      It sounds like PTO is not really a thing for temp jobs, which, depending on the culture of the business, may be a problem; I need to take time off for doctors’ appointments (usually just an hour or two at a time) on a bimonthly basis. Any advice on how to ask whether that would be acceptable without going into too much detail re: my health?

      Health insurance looks like it would be $500-600 – I do have some health issues I need to keep in check. That’s pricier than I was hoping for.

      I would be an employee through the agency and not a 1099.

      Another twist in my tale: there is a job at my old company that I could *possibly* get. Only problem is that it won’t open up until February, and it’s government so the hiring process takes forever. I’m not sure I can go that long on just my partner’s salary.

      Any additional thoughts?

      1. Kiwiii*

        Usually (in my experience) temp-positions will be chill about you missing an hour or two as needed, it’s just that they won’t pay for that time. I wouldn’t worry too much about the appointments, but do factor in that if you need to take a sick day or take off a couple days around the holidays or something, it will probably be unpaid.

        Regarding timelines and things, I’d personally go for the temp position but also apply for the February position. Temp companies are usually pretty understanding about short stints, because they understand that like benefits and stability and things are a huge factor in people’s lives.

      2. Natalie*

        Well, as far as the appointments, I think the way you phrased it is just fine: “I need to take time off for doctors’ appointments (usually just an hour or two at a time) on a bimonthly basis, do you anticipate that being a problem?”

        You could always accept the contract job and still throw your hat in the ring for the job at your old company. It’s not ideal to leave a contract job halfway through but it happens. Just weigh the decision carefully if/when it actually becomes real, you don’t want to burn a bridge cavalierly.

        Health insurance: Do you qualify for the premium tax credit for a marketplace plan? Does your partner have workplace insurance and if so, do they offer/do you qualify for domestic partner benefits? It’s not tax free like spousal coverage is but still might be cheaper than a marketplace plan.

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        You can always terminate the contract if you start it and something else comes up. They will all have out clauses, this is the nature of temp work! Just be respectful and give the proper notice when the time comes for that. So I wouldn’t pass it up and feel truly locked into a year.

        When you deal with temp contracts, you deal with the fact people will be still looking for steady employment options! This is the beauty of the US and working honestly. We have a lot of problems that suck and need to be fixed but the fact you are not tied anywhere contractually in the actual “contract” sense is great. It’s not like breaking a lease or a loan contract, where you’re penalized greatly for breaking the terms!

      4. CAA*

        How big is the temp agency? If they have 50 or more full-time employees, then they have to offer health insurance or pay a tax penalty. The employee’s share of the premiums has to be “affordable”, but that means something like 9.8% of your household income. If the premiums would exceed that, then you could opt to purchase a marketplace plan.

        You should also look into COBRA from the job that’s laying you off. You’ll have to pay the full premium that your employer currently pays plus a 2% admin fee, so it may indeed be more expensive than an ACA plan or the plan from your new agency, but you need to do the math to find out. Usually for younger people the ACA is cheaper, but for those over 50, then COBRA is cheaper. It varies a lot depending on what state you live in and how great (i.e. expensive) your old employer’s plan is, so that’s just a really generic rule of thumb.

        Temp agency employees usually bill by the hour, so they often don’t get PTO. This varies from agency to agency though. When I’ve hired temps, if somebody had an appointment, they would just not put that time on their timecard and the temp agency would only bill us for the actual hours worked. If the employee wanted to make up the time by working late or on the weekend, that was totally fine with me. We limited them to 40 hrs/week because of our budget constraints, but I mostly didn’t care which 40 hours of the week they were working.

        Apply for regular permanent jobs while you take the temp job. People leave temp jobs all the time when they find other positions. It’s one of the risks of employing temp workers, and as long as you leave in a professional way, the employer will deal with it.

  72. LuckyClover*

    Do I need to give an explanation when I give notice.

    For context: I’ve had this job for 6 months. We recently had a new director change, and hes made significant additions to my responsibilities while simultaneously removing my support staff. I am in charge of communications, where I produce 2 weekly and one monthly newsletters, run social media, update websites, and plan logistics for company events. But now he wants me to also fundraise / generate up to a 1/4 of a million dollars with no budget through the addition of two other major events ON MY OWN. Truth be told, I find his expectations unreasonable, combined with some other concerning things that have happened here I think the best thing would be for me to exit. I don’t think it matters what I do, I will get blamed for not meeting these new expectations. I’ve already asked for help and clearly stated what I need in order to be successful. My new director does not seem to think I should have any issues and is of a “sink or swim” mentality.

    I’ve been quietly getting my bearings together to get my permit to substitute teach. When my permit goes through, I think I will quit. I hate that I didn’t stay here for very long, but I don’t think it matters because this experience is not going to get me a good recommendation where I stand. I simply cannot deliver his tall order, and he is too caught up in his own vision to recognize it.

    I want to try and exit in an appropriate manner. And he wouldn’t take too kindly to me saying it is because of his changes.

    I went to a career adviser at my school (I am in a nighttime masters program). She told me I should say that my upcoming wrist surgery has made it impossible for me to keep the position because of the pain. Which seems… strange.

    I’m also considering saying I chose to go back to being a full time student (which I would if I was subbing). But I am scared he wouldn’t respond to that well either.

    Regardless I think its going to be ugly, but what is a way I can say things that keeps as much ugly off of me as possible. I know technically I don’t have to explain, but I worry I will be pressed really hard.

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      Unless it’s true that you can’t do your job anymore because of wrist surgery, I would not say that…

      But really, to speak to the question, you don’t need to give an explanation. Just tell them you’re leaving and when your last day will be. If they ask for an exit interview, you can make a decision about how honest you wanna be about your reasons to leave, but since you say your boss doesn’t want feedback, I don’t know the utility of honesty.

    2. Kiwiii*

      Honestly, if pressed for a reason, just say that an opportunity came up to substitute teach and you’ve realized that that’s more in line with your career goals/offers you more flexibility. Don’t make it about him or cite a wrist surgery. (but, think carefully about when you quit, because it may be much cheaper at current employer with current employer’s health insurance to have the surgery than elsewhere).

      1. Kiwiii*

        And honestly, if he’s weird about it, he was always going to be weird about it. There’s sometimes not a magic thing you can say to make unreasonable people respond reasonably.

      2. LuckyClover*

        yeah so… I am definitely staying on board through the surgery. Sub permits take time so I wont likely be through the process until end of January. Surgery has already been scheduled for a long time for December. Might not look the greatest for me, but I can’t help it.

    3. MissBliss*

      “I’m grateful for the opportunity to have worked here, but now that I have been here six months, I have come to the realization that it is not for me.”

    4. ArtK*

      The career advisor’s advice was terrible.

      Understand, though, that if your boss gets upset, that’s his problem, not yours. He sounds very unreasonable so it’s likely that no reason will prevent a bad reaction.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Right. No matter how much he cusses, no matter how many insults he throws you are still leaving. You win and he proves you to be correct in leaving. You can only control how you respond to that. You can’t “make him” be an adult.
        “The job description has changed and is very different from the job I signed on for and the pay rate I agreed to.”

  73. Data Analyst*

    I started casually looking for jobs (casually as in – I just sort of did a smattering, and only to places where I didn’t need to do a cover letter). I’m looking because I’ve been here 4 years, the work is somewhat tedious and repetitive and I feel like some of my skills are atrophying, and I know I could make a lot more money. But it’s not a BAD job, and my manager has been good and flexible, if a little too hands off sometimes. The money thing and wanting something interesting is the main reason to start looking. So, I now find myself in a place where I think I’m about to get offers from two places, and this should be good, but instead I’m like “aahhhhh this is moving WAY too fast, I wasn’t even looking that hard, maybe I am too dumb to do anything else, also can I handle the emotional upheaval of starting something new, what if I have a nervous breakdown instead and get fired and then have NO job” [yes I have anxiety problems – yes I get help for them but I can still get myself into a spiral] And I am definitely considering culture etc. and would not jump for just anything, the places that might offer seem genuinely like interesting nice places where I would enjoy working, and they would push me to develop some skills I haven’t had a chance to in this job, etc. etc….so, how to get over that hump of emotional resistance? It feels terrible! And then I wonder if it’s a Sign that I shouldn’t change jobs even though I don’t really believe in “signs” and also my brain lies to me because anxiety.

    1. I edit everything*

      I think you’re on the right track in recognizing that you’re on the edge (or actually in?) an anxiety spiral. Naming it for what it is, acknowledging that your anxiety plays tricks on you, can be a big help in getting out of it.

      It’s also very common to be hesitant about making a big change. I think we all experience that at transition points like this. The devil you know… That said, the speed with which this is moving says a ton about your abilities, smarts, and adaptability. Even if the new place doesn’t work out, I don’t think finding something else will be a problem.

      Will you regret not trying? If you’re offered a new position, and you decide to stay where you are, will you get that heavy feeling in your chest, the one that comes when you’ve missed out on something that could have been great? Will your current place suddenly become more tedious? Or will you be grateful for the routine, your coworkers, your flexible manager?

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think literally the only jobs where (the general) you don’t feel this are the jobs that are so toxic that they are impacting your health. And even then the what ifs can start creeping in. It’s always easier to go with the known vs the unknown. But remember, you were casually looking and you ended up with 2 (potential) offers very quickly. That means you have something marketable. Even if you take a new job and it doesn’t pan out like you hoped, in all likelihood other people will still be interested.

      Keep in mind, a job doesn’t have to be BAD before you can leave. You can be choosing between a decent job and a slightly more decent job, and that is totally fine! Maybe there are no bad choices here. You get to make decisions on only money! or on how fulfilled you feel! Those are perfectly valid reasons to make a change. You started looking for a reason, and if you stay where you are, those reasons are still going be in effect tomorrow, 6 months, a year from now. So if you don’t change jobs now, are you planning on staying in this slightly unsatisfying role forever? How long before you’re “allowed” to leave?

      1. Data Analyst*

        Thank you! “So if you don’t change jobs now, are you planning on staying in this slightly unsatisfying role forever? How long before you’re “allowed” to leave?” That is giving me some much needed clarity.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          I’m glad! You’re allowed to try new things and have them work out. You’re also allowed to try new things and have them not work out like you hoped. It’s okay if that happens. When I’m spiraling, sometimes it’s helpful to me to plan for the catastrophe; I take all that frenetic energy and channel it into researching the Plan B for the worst case scenario. I put the contingency plan in place so I can tell myself – look, if the worst happens we’re already prepared. It ALWAYS helps me short circuit the spiral, because I just point my jerk brain at the plan and remind myself it’s already covered. I’ve NEVER actually had to use the plan I made. So it’s 1-4 hours of prep and planning vs. the uncountable anxious hours I worry myself into a lather about a problem that likely won’t happen. It’s a much better trade off.

    3. Kiwiii*

      When I was at my last job, I’d gotten it specifically to get my foot in the door at a specific company. It was a step up in pay and benefits, but nowhere near where my skills were capable of getting me. My manage was fine, not great, the work was fine, not great, and I figured I’d give it a year or two and then start leveraging myself up into a higher role.

      About 6 months in, a higher role became open on my team (a coworker retired), and there was a weird miscommunication when my manager had both encouraged me to apply and made it impossible to apply (they’d set up the application as a transfer only, and I was too many rungs away to apply). Because I’d polished my resume up for that and ended up not being able to use it, I applied to a slightly more accessible role on the team that shared our office suite and a random non-profit role that didn’t /really/ seem like a great fit, but shared a couple of the more interesting duties I did, and figured nothing would come of it and I’d go back to waiting out the clock in the boring job.

      The non-profit called me the next week, and within 2 more weeks had made me a job offer. I was excited but also felt incredibly incredibly guilty and anxious and uncomfortable about it, but I’ve felt those things every time I’ve changed jobs, because I’m anxious and uncomfortable all the time (like it sounds like you might be :) ). Four years is plenty to stay somewhere, you should go somewhere where you’re making more money and happier. If you feel like you’re going to have a nervous breakdown, take a sick day and remind yourself of all the positive things that could come out of the change.

      1. Data Analyst*

        Thank you – and yes! Anxious and uncomfortable all the time!
        I’m glad that situation worked out well for you.

    4. MissGirl*

      Oh my goodness. I am totally you two months ago, and I’m a data analyst with anxiety.

      I was casually looking, had a good job, and got an offer. I was absolutely freaking out the night before I got the actual offer (knew one was coming) and certain I wouldn’t accept it.

      Reader, I took the job offer and have zero regrets. It’s awesome. Knowing you, you’ll analyze everything and give this decision a lot of thought. Trust yourself to make the right choice for you.

      What helped me make the decision was accepting that, yes, it’s a risk to leave. But it’s also a risk to stay. I’m also squirreling away the extra money into a larger emergency fund to assay my getting laid off fears.

      You got this!!!

      1. Data Analyst*

        Oh my gosh thank you. This is really good to hear. I’m glad for the reminder that there’s also risk in staying. That is very real! I am in a little niche area and long term it could limit me. Anyway, thank you and I’m glad it all worked out well for you!

    5. Data Scientist*

      If you are not learning a lot and are being underpaid, leave now. Do your homework and find a job where the money is better and more importantly, you will have an opportunity to learn. A year ago I was terrified to accept my first job as a data scientist–so much I didn’t know! It was fine and what I learned over the past 12 months made me very popular with recruiters. If something goes wrong with this job, I won’t have any trouble finding a new one. You don’t have to rush; just because you receive several offers, it doesn’t mean you need to take one. You are in a privileged position to be picky, but don’t let self-doubt keep you from growing your skills. Nobody knows everything their job will require on day one, so find a way to control your anxiety and you will do great :-). Good luck!

      1. Data Analyst*

        Thank you!! One of the jobs that I think will offer would have the title of Data Scientist, which is something I really want (I basically AM a Data Scientist now, but boss has declined to change the title even though he admits Data Analyst is not the correct title for what I do, either…I guess I can add that to the “cost of staying” column). Anyway, this is very helpful to hear since making that transition is one possible outcome, so I’m glad it worked out well for you. :)

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Two things that may/may not help:

      1) Insist on dealing in facts, not but-what-ifs; not something Negative Nancy told you in private thoughts; not random things said by asshats in your life. Just look at facts. In order to look at facts you will have to collect up some facts to look at.

      2) Live in the present. Don’t lose today. Do your best every day. Understand that some days will be better than others and that is just life. Yes, this matters. Little fall-downs today become regrets that we carry for quite a while. Do your best and forgive yourself when you miss the target.

      3) Commit to you. Promise yourself that you can find a better job and if things go awry for whatever reason, you will work at whatever comes up. Yes, this matters also. Tell Data Analyst that you will do everything possible not to let Data Analyst down. Sometimes our willingness to bail our own butts is what makes a huge difference in a situation.

  74. Paralegal Part Deux*

    Well, I went for the interview at Big Firm on Tuesday, and I think it went very well. I hope I go to the next round of interviews with the three attorneys. It’d be a $10K raise and much better benefits. I’d also have to be trained to work with an attorney that does bonds, and I have no idea how that works. However, they said they’d be willing to train me from the ground up on that. I also have a phone interview next week with another Big Company for a remote title agent job that’s 100% remote. It’d only be a $5k raise but still better benefits.

    So, wish me luck that these pan out, and I can leave Toxic Job.

  75. Stef*

    I have a question for everyone.
    I’m only four tests away from obtaining my real estate license (I have to take two online exams because I’m taking the 75-hour course online, find a sponsoring broker, take an exam, and then take another exam for the state). My question is would becoming a real estate agent help me obtain an office/clerical/receptionist position? Real estate agents do handle paper and computer work. Do you think it would help me or would becoming a real estate agent just mean I’m a sales person (even though we do more than just handle sales and customer service)?
    Thank you!

    1. LuckyClover*

      Its all about how to summarize your skills and accomplishments in your resume/cover letter. There is room for you to talk about how working as a real estate agent has given you administrative skills X,X,X. However, I think there are limitations to being able to say that when you only have your licence, and not practical experience in the field. It definitely applies, but just not to as big of a degree.

      For example, I have a minor in education but that doesn’t directly apply to my success as a teacher.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I don’t think *becoming* a real estate agent would help you. I’m assuming you mean you pass all your exams and then you start applying for jobs and listing real estate agent on your resume. I think it would be one of those situations where as the hiring manager, I would assume you’re only looking for a temporary job until you build your real estate clientele.

      It might help get a non-agent job in something related to real estate (like maybe at a title company), or it might help if your resume is otherwise something completely non-office related. The problem is you haven’t done the realtor job yet, either, so you don’t have that experience. You just have the license. If you want an admin job, why not take some courses or pursue certifications focusing on that first?

      I would add that if you are the type of person who will be successful as a realtor, you should have a broad network and be able to network your way into an admin position.

    3. Purple Energy*

      Is there a reason why you’re going through all the time and effort to get a real estate license, but don’t plan to use it? I’m not that familiar with real estate, but don’t real estate agents typically make more money than receptionists?

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      I would guess no? I think going through the course and writing the exams would help you … be a realtor.

      1. Stef*

        I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear with my post. Agents make money on commission, not per hour and many brokerages don’t offer health insurance (it can depend). RE is something I would do on the side if I land a full time job as part time. If I don’t land a full time job soon, I would do RE full time. RE is something you can do on your own time and you don’t need to clock in or out. You only get paid when you make a sale (either as a listing agent, buyers agent, ect), which is why I would like to do it part time around a full time job.
        RE agents handle contracts, negotiations, disclosure forms, agency agreements, copy, filing, printing, and writing on forms. I’m asking if, in the future, would being a RE agent who sits at a desk in an office (obviously, an agent doesn’t sit at a desk all day), handles all sorts of forms and agreements, contacts clients and customers (there is a difference in RE), does open houses, locks up the house (being responsible), travels to show homes, handles phone calls with clients and customers, and computer work, would any of those duties that I listed be something a hiring manager would see as clerical duties? Obviously, clerical work is more than just paper pushing, greeting people, talking pleasantly on the phone, staring at a computer, ect . . . Is there anything I mentioned above that would say I performed clerical duties as a RE agent? Is there anything from above that I could put in my resume to use to my advantage when I apply to clerical jobs? Or is clerical work more tedious, hard, difficult, and incredibly different than what a RE agent (when they’re in their office) does?
        Thank you! I hope I cleared up the confusion.

        1. CAA*

          For now just put “Licensed Real Estate Agent” on your resume. Be prepared to answer questions about how you’re going to prevent your RE business that you’re doing on the side from interfering with your day job. E.g. if you need to take off a couple of afternoons a month to go to a closing, that impacts your availability.

          Once you have actual experience, then you can list your current job as “Real Estate Agent” and put those items as bullet points (phrased as accomplishments, not tasks) underneath it.

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            I think your point about taking off to go to closings is a very important one. While RE agents can mostly set their own hours, they are beholden to the needs of their clients, lawyers, maintenance people, “the other side”, etc. I mean, that’s only as far as I know and I have never worked in real estate. I know some people who do it part time but they have other part time, flexible jobs. So just echoing that Stef should carefully consider how to balance a full-time job with being an agent.

        2. Middle School Teacher*

          Again, I would say no. It seems like an expensive and roundabout route to become an office/clerical person.

          1. Stef*

            @ Middle School Teacher, I’m not doing this to just become an office/clerical person. I don’t understand where you get that idea. Let me start at the very beginning.
            I used to work two jobs, one at a handbag store and another at a decorating/Home Goods type of store. I received news in May that my handbag store was going to close, and I decided to take the 75-hour pre-licensing course online (started the course at the end of May)to become a real estate agent. I wanted to do this because A. I wanted to keep myself busy while I search for a full time job and B. if I don’t land a job, I can become a real estate agent as a back up plan in case I don’t land a job (I still have my other retail job, but the company just hired a new CEO who has a bad record for quickly closing out Chapter 11 bankruptcy deals for the other companies he did take over).
            After three months of rejections, I decided I really wanted to leave retail because of the state it’s in and go towards office/clerical/receptionist.
            I plan to leave my current retail job for RE. I’m just asking will the skills and duties I learn as a real estate agent help me obtain an office job? RE agents do handle stuff in the office. The thought just occurred to me yesterday that since RE agents work in and out of an office (brokerage), maybe hiring managers will see that as office experience verse staying in retail. So, is it yes or no? Why or why not?
            I plan to quit RE when I obtain an office job, so if the employer is hesitant to take me on because I’ll be missing days for closings, I can say I’ll be leaving that job for this job.

            1. AnotherAlison*

              I don’t think you quite understand how backwards this sounds to many of us who know something about office jobs and what it takes to be a realtor:

              “I plan to quit RE when I obtain an office job. . .”

              Earning a living as a realtor is damn near impossible starting out. It take a lot of work to build a business. My spouse contracts with realtors to do work required to close on sales all the time (he’s an electrician), and he knows a ton of realtors, several who are personal friends, so this is where I get my information. Breaking into real estate is something you do on the side while you have a full-time office job. You don’t do it to pay the bills while you look for a F/T job. I mean, I don’t think there is any harm in your licensing and training in real estate, but if your goal is an office job, the time would be spent a little more efficiently preparing directly for the career you want. It’s like saying you want to be a medical office administrator, but you’re going to study for the MCATs as a back up plan.

            2. Middle School Teacher*

              Because in your original post you said, “would becoming a RE agent help me obtain an office/clerical/receptionist position?” And my answer is, why would you go to all that time and expense for that? Everyone I know who needs office/clerical staff doesn’t look at RE agents and think, wow, they work in an office, they must be really good at office stuff. So no, I don’t think it will. And it seems like an expensive way to become an admin staff person. Sorry, just my experience.

              1. The Other Dawn*

                “Because in your original post you said, “would becoming a RE agent help me obtain an office/clerical/receptionist position?” ”

                Yes, and that’s why I got exactly the same impression. It wasn’t clear to me at all that Stef meant she would do RE on the side.

            3. cold nonnie*

              I’m just asking will the skills and duties I learn as a real estate agent help me obtain an office job? RE agents do handle stuff in the office.

              No. I wouldn’t hire someone who had a RE license but no office or clerical skills. Being a receptionist, office manager, or office admin are very different from what you’d be doing as a RE agent. You’re trying to shove one job into another just because they’re both set in offices.

              To be honest, it would raise some huge red flags to me if someone got their RE license and then applied for an office position.

        3. EventPlannerGal*

          So just to clarify: you want to know whether, if you got a real estate agent job that included administrative work, you could later put that on your CV to support applications for admin/clerical/reception-type jobs? If I’m misunderstanding, please let me know!

          If that’s what you’re asking, I would say… probably yes, you could do that? It depends on what type of admin roles you were applying for, but I think the paperwork, filing, managing many tasks at once, legal stuff and general organisational skills would all be good qualities in an admin. All of those things plus the people-skills aspects would also be good qualities in a receptionist. So if you did get your license, get a real estate job and proved to be good at those things, you could list them.

          However, if your long-term preferred goal is general administrative or reception work, I’m not sure if this is the most straightforward way to go about it. I would definitely continue with the exams and license now that you’ve started, but why not look specifically for support or admin roles with a real estate company or something related? A real estate license sounds like a pretty specific qualification that might it be very transferrable, but could be really valuable within the industry.

            1. EventPlannerGal*

              Okay, great! I would just add that I do agree with the others above saying that this seems kind of a backwards way to go about it. Having been a receptionist myself, it would be considered definitely below an estate agent on the career ladder so it seems like you’re going for the harder-to-get job first and planning to use that as support for the lower-level job. There’s nothing stopping you from trying that, but I do think you’ll probably get a lot of questions about it and it does of course rely on you getting and proving your skills at a real-estate job first.

    5. LilySparrow*

      Clerical work is far less complicated and demanding than being a profitable realtor, and people who are interviewing for admin positions are going to find it pretty unusual for you to list job duties like “writing on forms” as a realtor.

      Saying that you are just doing RE part time and looking for something with steady hours and health insurance will make sense, but otherwise they may wonder why you are applying when (at least on paper) you are overqualified.

      The other thing I think you are misunderstanding is the nature of real estate work itself. You are not going to be handling contracts or anything else until you have clients. There is no “office work” to do until you convince someone to let you list their property, or possibly if you get connected with a senior agent who wants to have you cover some showings.

      You will have to spend a significant amount of time and energy marketing yourself and meeting people. You’ll also need a lot of market knowledge and soft skills like negotiation, assessing clients’ stated needs versus their unspoken priorities, and being able to spot deception or bad faith in order to protect yourself and your clients.

      On the other hand, having your licensure might be a direct advantage if you apply to admin positions in a realty office, for a property developer, or in property management. Smaller offices of that type sometimes like to hire a “jack of all trades” for the front office. The long-term result is that person is often seriously underpaid for their skills. But it could be worth it in the short to medium term, to make the jump out of retail.

      1. Stef*

        I know I won’t be dealing with office work until I have clients. I’m not stupid. I already took the 75-hour course and they explain everything. I’m just asking if a RE agent’s work can be used to transition to clerical that’s all. It’s either yes or no. I’m trying to problem solve my solution because no one is hiring me. I plan to volunteer at my local hospital and travel 25 miles (the closest place) to a temp agency for a clerical job. However, I don’t know if temp agency’s hire people with no experience. I have to worry about that. Also, when I interview for temp clerical jobs, I’ll still have people to compete against who probably have 5 or 10+ years experience verse me with 0. Who do you think the managers will take? The people with the most experience. I’m stressing over everything and thinking about the future. I like to have everything planned out in advance and think about different plans to get to where I have to go. For all I know, it may take me 2 years to land a temp job! Managers can be picky, and they’ll reject me because of my lack of experience. I highly doubt temp jobs hire people right away. That’s why I’m asking this question. No, I’m not a real estate agent yet, but when I become one and when I gain experience through sales and contracts, then I’ll put it on my resume.
        If all plans fail and the only plan left is to go through the hard way, well I’ll have to go through the hard way.

        1. Purple Energy*

          “No, I’m not a real estate agent yet, but when I become one and when I gain experience through sales and contracts, then I’ll put it on my resume.”

          It’s going to take quite a bit of time to gain enough real estate experience to to justify putting it on your resume, especially if you’re doing it part-time. So I’m just don’t think that’s a great plan. I think you’re better off just looking for entry level office positions.

          1. Stef*

            I understand what everyone is saying. However, all my rejections have been (either e-mail and/or in person) are because I don’t have experience in clerical or receptionist work. All my life since I was 15/16 (when I had a work permit and applied to retail companies who were able to hire people under 18), everyone drummed it into my head that they can’t hire me because I have no experience.
            When I was 15, I applied at Bed, Bath, and Beyond and the SM looked at me up and down like a piece of meat in a grocery store. She sneered at me and said she doesn’t hire high schoolers because they don’t know how to fold towels and operate a register. She said to me that she doesn’t hire people who have 0 experience.
            I thought to myself that it’s not hard to fold towels, and it’s not hard to account for every cent and dollar that comes in and out of the register. It’s not brain surgery!
            Every other interview after that, managers would reject me because I don’t have retail experience to be a sales associate. I tried applying at grocery stores, but they wouldn’t even take me for the very same reason.
            Then I had this memorable interview when I was 17. I applied online for a sales associate position at Easy Spirit, which was a small store at an outlet shopping center in my hometown. I got a call to come in for an interview. I go to the interview and meet with the SM. We take a seat outside the store on a bench because, according to her, they received a huge shipment of boxes. Then the SM from Nine West joined us too because she was looking for sales associates as well, and both stores decided to band together for interviews.
            They asked me why I applied, and I stated I was looking for a summer job to gain retail experience. I added I applied at ES because I love shoes and would enjoy helping customers find the perfect pair of shoes for them. Well, I guess they suddenly realized that I didn’t have experience because the SM from ES said, “Oh, you don’t have any retail experience?” I say yes. The SM from Nine West glares at me and says, “well, just to let you know, we don’t hire people with no retail experience. In fact, you should just give up looking for a job because you don’t have experience, and no one will ever hire you because you don’t have experience.” I really wanted to yell and scream at those managers for dragging me to this interview just to tell me that, but I stayed incredibly calm and I didn’t want to make a scene in public. I said goodbye, stood up, and walked as quickly as I could. I will never forget that experience.
            Finally, when I was 19, I got my first job as a stock associate and someone finally took a chance on me. Then a year later, I joined the handbag store and worked there for 4 years with great managers. Now, the same thing is happening to me that happened to me when I was 15/16. That’s why I’m asking this question. I’ve always had to go through the school of hard knocks, so it’s not easy for me to go through the easy way. I can never take the A road. I always have to go through the rain forest.
            Like I said above, I plan to go to a temp agency, but I don’t know how they work. Again, I’ll be up against people who have oodles of experience over me, especially if companies laid those people off. With hundreds of applicants out there, managers can be picky, and if I was a manager, I wouldn’t even pick me. I would pick someone with experience because that means it makes their job easier and they don’t have break a bunch of fresh French manicured fingernails in the process to train me.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Retail is brutal. And it has skewed your view of workplaces. I know. This happened to me too.
              ‘
              If you want to do office work then apply for part time office jobs so you can start to build up your resume. Beef up on MS Office and Outlook. Everyone can always learn more, so I would start there.

              Your path that you have laid out here is to get a RE license, get a clerical job and then hope to get a FT clerical job. This is sort of like saying, “I live in NY and I would like to go to VT, 100 miles away. Oh, I know what I will do, I will take a plane to Italy, then find a flight to England and then maybe catch a plane to VT.”

              Instead apply for a PT clerical position where you think you can probably succeed. This might be a small business, but you can move on after you have been there for a little bit.

              Selling RE is way, way more complex than a bad nightmare. My friend retired recently and she said the paper work is six times what it used to be. Your work as a realtor will tie up most of your time and brain space, there probably won’t be much left to apply for something that offers a steady paycheck. I don’t think many people have leveraged a real estate license into a perm/FT clerical position.

              I don’t believe that getting a RE license will help you get a clerical job.

              1. Stef*

                PT clerical jobs don’t want me. They all ask for 3-5 years experience, and when I show up for interviews, they reject me because there are other people out there with more experience. No one wants to take a chance on someone who has 0 experience, but one needs a chance to gain experience. No one comes out of the womb and into the world already equipped with skills and experience. If no one took a chance on anyone, there would be no leaders and everyone would stay stagnant. Society would be a lot different. The only problem is that no one thinks like that. Instead, they see 0 experience as a weakness and target it and use it against you while they slam the door in your face.

                1. valentine*

                  Temp agencies take people with no experience. As a temp, I started out doing random things like stuffing envelopes and there was a pay tier like $x for that, up to $x+2 just for sticking with the agency, $x+3 for jobs requiring Word, and $x+4 for jobs requiring a non-English language.

                  For your real estate question, the answer is no. People hiring for entry-level admin/data entry will think something’s gone wrong if you want to quit being a real estate agent (more money/flexibility, self-driven), especially a Realtor, for desk/butt-in-seat work. Look at the skills jobs call for and gain as many as you can. If it’s just experience you’re missing, see if any ask for the equivalent (maybe years of education or work using PowerPoint or bookkeeping). In fact, going from bookkeeper to admin would be smoother than using real estate as a backup. Real estate also seems extremely time-consuming. You might try medical office front desk jobs (they may want medical coding) or plain data entry work. If you haven’t already, look for data entry or virtual admin gigs to build up experience.

                  The retail people who rejected you were weird, or possibly letting you down easy. Retail has long been a standard first job for teenagers.

                  Do you have any contacts from past jobs who might help you?

            2. cold nonnie*

              I would pick someone with experience because that means it makes their job easier and they don’t have break a bunch of fresh French manicured fingernails in the process to train me.

              An attitude like this is not going to help. I know you’re frustrated but make sure it doesn’t seep through in job interviews because it’s not going to get you anywhere.

        2. LilySparrow*

          I apologize. I did not at all mean to imply that you’re stupid.

          In a text medium like this, it is difficult to tell when you are being completely literal, and when you are thinking out loud. So I was responding to some of your comments that seemed off-kilter, because I was taking them literally.

          I think temp agencies are a great way to get office experience. They are used to working with folks who are coming from different backgrounds, they usually provide training on computer skills, and they value reliability and work ethic above everything else.

          Send in your resume with a cover letter mentioning that you are looking to transition out of retail into admin work. Your resume and cover letter should highlight examples of reliability, learning on the job, eagerness to learn new skills, and performing well under pressure or challenges.

          Tell them you are available for short or long term placements, and that you can be flexible/available on short notice (if that’s true). Also that you have your own transportation and give them a radius of how far you’re willing to commute.

          You probably won’t visit their office after the initial interview unless you’re doing additional training.

          If you are familiar with multi-line phone systems from the store, that’s good to put in the resume too – either under the particular job, or in the skills section.

          Helping with inventory days and learning different systems for managing stock can be relevant too, because it transfers to things like learning different filing systems.

          The tricky bit if you are a planner is that sometimes temp assignments really do come in at the last minute, because somebody called in sick. But once you have a relationship with the agency, if you’ve “saved their bacon” a couple of times by filling in short-notice, they will prioritize you for better assignments next time. They operate very much on social credit (or karma points) that way.

          I know the market is a bit different now than when I started out, but I’ve never waited longer than a week to get my first temp assignment with an agency. And that was in several different areas, off and on up through 2011. And there were often a *lot* of people who never worked admin before.

          My first temp job was fresh out of school. My total job experience consisted of babysitting and my work-study job in the costume department at college. I had taken typing and computer classes in middle school, so that was a bit of an advantage.

          When they call you for an interview, they usually give you assessments for typing speed and your level of skill on Microsoft Word. They can place you no matter what your score, but the higher skill levels tend to get higher paying assignments with more word processing, while lower skill levels tend to get stuff like filing or copying and collating documents.

          For short-term assignments of a few days, the client manager won’t normally interview you. You are just filling in for Betty who has the flu. If you do a good job, you’ll keep that assignment the whole time. If it’s not a good fit, they will send someone else the next day and you’ll go back in the “pool.” But the standards of doing a good job in that scenario are basically being on time, presentable, polite, helpful, tidy, and writing down all instructions so you can follow them without asking the same thing a million times. You are more likely to be bored than swamped.

          Most people are nice to temps and glad to have the extra help. If they do cancel your assignment for a bad fit, you can usually get feedback from the agency about anything you need to do differently. Most of the time, the agency already knows which managers are unreasonable or impossible to please, and they’ll tell you not to feel bad – they don’t hold situations like that against you.

          Once you start moving into longer-term or temp to perm assignments, you’re more likely to be interviewed by the onsite manager (but not always!) By then you’ll have that precious experience to draw on.

          I get that you’ve been through a tough time, and I hope it starts turning around for you soon.

          1. Stef*

            Thanks for your comment, and I’m sorry for coming across harsh. I’m very frustrated and there’s a ton of personal stuff going on in my life. Your post really helped bring me perspective with the situation. You explained everything clearly and nicely and you explained everything that I was asking. I just have one last question. Do temp agencies place you where you live locally? The closest temp agency is 38.4 miles from my house (round trip 76.8, and that’s too far for me to drive every day just for a temp position. Thank you again, and I’m sorry for being harsh and angry. My emotions are all over the place.
            As for the RE, I think it’s best to put a question mark on it right now because I don’t know about the future with the temping, volunteering at my local hospital, and my current part time job. I’ll see how the next month or two turn out and make my decision whether to pursue my license. I do agree with everyone about scheduling conflicting with closings, and I’m type the person who wouldn’t want anything to interfere with my full time job, so maybe I shouldn’t do RE. However, I did enjoy learning about real estate, mortgages, liens, and what real estate agents are allowed/not allowed to do in my state.
            Thank you everyone!

            1. EllaX*

              If you enjoy the real estate aspect, is it possible to start looking for admin jobs at mortgage companies? I don’t know much about the business other than meeting people when we bought our house, but there are plenty of people doing admin and clerical working putting together packets and working with the realtor and the person who “sells” the mortgage.

            2. LilySparrow*

              In terms of radius/commute, they will generally try to place people first in jobs that are a short commute, because it makes them more likely to show up on time.

              But if there is only one or very few agencies in a large region, that means they’re going to be drawing their clientele from all around, so sometimes those first few placements might be “you take what you can get.”

              Look around at the businesses in your area. Large corporations, bank or insurance headquarters, factories, law firms – those are going to be the main types of clients. Small businesses are more likely to just hire directly and avoid the agency fees.

              If there’s only one or two large companies around, that’s probably where most of the gigs are.

    6. Clever Name*

      No. If I were screening applications for an admin position and a candidate listed a brand new and evidently unused credential, I would have questions. Like would they leave soon for a job that uses their new credential? Could they not hack it as a realtor (or whatever) and this job was a fallback and they would therefore be unhappy?

      You can still take the tests, but you do t have to list it in your resume.

    7. rear mech*

      From what I have seen, just getting the real estate license would NOT help with any sort of general job search. There are plenty of jobs in the industry that are not pure self-employment. Many people with the certification and without a strong network start out as admin assistants to an established realtor and are paid hourly (not sure about insurance). They do stuff like marketing, handling the client database, and eventually helping with sales and showing houses. Sales people for home builders or leasing agents in fancy buildings can be more like commission sales where you have regular base pay and insurance but can make extra based on your sales. At a big brokerage they may employ transaction coordinators or contract coordinators who aren’t showing houses but do all the back office work of making sure contracts are perfect and following up with all the parties involved. The folks I know who do this are paid per contract, but they handle contracts for many different realtors in the same brokerage, so it’s not a desperate hustle type of job and they don’t have to sell themselves to the world at large to gain clients. Caveat, my city has a strong, consistent real estate market.

    8. UK Civil Servant*

      I realise you’ve sunk time and money into the RE training, but something like the ECDL (European Computer Driving Licence) or your country’s equivalent would be a more obvious qualification to help break in to entry level clerical work.
      ECDL covers basic skills in Word, Excel, PowerPoint, databases – enough to show you can handle the essentials on day one.
      (Anecdote – Years ago my department made *everyone* take it when they upgraded their IT system – if you didn’t pass no logon for you! It’s not a requirement to be hired though.)

      1. LilySparrow*

        I have never heard of a certification like that in the US. Some community colleges have Associate degrees in business administration or things like that, but they aren’t standardized nationally.

        The standardized certifications in computing that I’m aware of over here are more for high-level specialities.

  76. Juli G.*

    Just a reminder-

    If you have changed jobs and/or primary residence, make sure anyone that employed you in 2019 has a current mailing address by early January. Neither you or your former employers want to chase down or reissue W2s.

  77. Timely Pay Laws in NYC?*

    My nephew, a college student, agreed to work as a mentor at his small, NYC public high school for $15 per hour. He worked mid- through late-July, roughly 6 hours a day (he kept track of hours worked). There was no official contract/appointment letter for this.
    It’s now mid-November, and he STILL has not received any payment from the school!
    He’s followed up with the teacher/administrator who set this up via email multiple times, asking when he would be paid. In August she said there were delays or some processing issue, and so it was taking a bit longer. She didn’t respond to his further inquiries. 
    He escalated this to the principal via email this week. The principal said there was a holdup with the payment at a “level higher than the school”.
    I’m sure there are laws in New York City/State about timely payment to employees, but he’s not an employee of the school/DOE. But are there any other laws we could “gently remind” the school of to give them some sense of urgency? Or does he need to bring this to the attention of the DOE? (Would the DOE even do anything about this?! Does anyone know if this sort of delay in payment is on par for them??)
    I fear they’ll keep marking this as a low-priority issue until he stops following up and they won’t pay him at all!

    2. Nita*

      It’s not totally out there. My husband has done a short-term gig for NYC (not DOE though, I think it was DCAS) a few times, and the first time, it took three months for him to get paid. They were much faster when he did it recently, but yes, they can move pretty slowly.

      1. Timely Pay Laws in NYC?*

        That’s insane! I can’t imagine why it takes them so long. But hopefully that means he’ll get paid soon – he’s nearly at four months!

      2. Observer*

        If he’s a contractor, their processes stink. If he’s an employee, though, something is off. This is NOT normal.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      He wasn’t an employee, so he’s a contractor, right?

      Yeah, sadly contract workers run into this all the dang time with delinquent payments. There aren’t the same laws to protect them, since it’s essentially just an invoice. And in the end, you can try to sue someone to pay an invoice but that’s rarely worth it.

      They screwed him over. This happens in a lot of schools. I now have a list of random schools that I hate because their AP schedule sucks and getting paid is like pulling teeth out of an awake donkey.

      1. Timely Pay Laws in NYC?*

        I think that’s what most infuriating: that it’s a high school of all places that’s taking advantage of people – and screwing over a young, recent graduate no less! Have they no shame!?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          School districts along with colleges are awful at paying their bills, from their suppliers to their contractors. I’m really sorry that this is happening to him, it’s simply awful and unacceptable. They believe they are so important and you should really just give them everything for free, including your work and products. Seriously.

          I hope the link you were given helps him get paid.

          It’s over $600 I see. He’s going to be paying taxes on that. Don’t let him forget to save for that bill.

        2. Observer*

          The DOE has been notorious for DECADES for terrible bill payment. It’s gotten a teensy weensy better, but in the past it was so bad that no low cost vendor would enter into a contract with them – their standard schedule of repayment STARTED at 90 days, which meant that 120 and higher was common.

      1. Timely Pay Laws in NYC?*

        This is exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about – thank you!

        He’s definitely getting more than $800 (I think he’s owed roughly over $1,000), but there’s no written contract. Certainly nothing that explicitly states that he’s an independent contractor. Does that matter? Because according to that link, it seems he could theoretically sue and receive double the amount owed (not that he would ever…)

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          Your best bet would be to have your nephew call that number, or call the city bar association’s lawyer referral line. This really isn’t a situation that you should receive much direction on from strangers on the internet. Good luck!

    5. Bubbles*

      At my K-12 school, these types of positions are paid as stipends and stipends are only dispersed twice a year (November and May) unless the school does a special requisition. I’m in California though… I still think it would be worthwhile for him to pursue this, but his prodding of the principal may have accomplished that. The principal would have had to talk to the admin who set it up to get an update, and when the principal starts asking questions, you get your stuff done. I wouldn’t be surprised if admin has finally worked out the issues and a check will be issued at the next pay cycle (first of the month for me).

      If your nephew doesn’t hear back by mid-week next week with an update, he should follow up with admin and principal. And research in the meantime – who is the level higher than the school? Are they part of a school district that handles these kinds of payments? Start working on who the appropriate person would be to contact next.

  78. The Ginger Ginger*

    Does anyone else’s office play music…everywhere? I mean not in the offices or conference rooms, but most of the workers are out in the open office area. And there’s a play list. Every. Day. Folks can submit their own play list and all, but it’s so distracting. And it is way louder than I would expect background music to be. Part rant and part….this is weird right?

    1. wingmaster*

      My company has music played on the entire first floor, where there are conference rooms with no ceiling and open offices. I think this is because we also have a retail store on the floor.

      I’m glad I’m on the second floor where I have my own room…and my own music.

    2. LuckyClover*

      At my old job a supervisor put a record player in the hallway outside our offices. It drove me bananas. My favorite part was he would turn it on, go to his office that had a closed door, and then play his own spotify.

      Its not normal.

    3. JJ*

      Someone in my office just discovered the speaker system, and they intermittently play music throughout the day. It’s definitely weird to have background music here at the corporate HQ for a regional restaurant chain. It’s not as if we have customers in the office who’d appreciate the ambience.

      The playlist is…not great, and nobody would ‘fess up when I tried to find out who it was. Because I couldn’t figure out who was running the music or where the controls were, I just mentioned it in a “can you believe how loud this is?” way to everyone who came by my office for a week or two. Eventually, I must’ve found the culprit, because it did get turned down.

      If you have migraines, you might be able to get them to lower the volume as a medical accommodation, though!

    4. Mill Miker*

      Not the whole office, but the team on the other end of the (fairly small) floor plays music all day. The office is open concept with just the walled-off staircase between us and them. The volume varies from “do I hear music?” to “I think I know that song, if I could just make out the words I’d know…” to “WOW”.

      It’s pretty distracting to us, but they all like it, and they apparently matter more for most company decisions.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Not me but I have a friend that used to work in the corporate offices of a national restaurant/bar chain. The same playlist that played in the restaurants (via satellite or something…there was no local control of the music) played in the corporate offices too…all day everyday. And the list was rather limited…music that fit the vibe/brand of the chain. At least your office lets you submit your own play lists.

  79. I edit everything*

    I have an editing test to do sometime over the next few days as part of the hiring process for what could be an excellent, ongoing freelance gig (extremely reputable, prestigious publisher). It’s on PAPER. They want me to do it on hardcopy. With proofreader’s marks.

    It’s been….a very long time since I’ve done an edit on hardcopy. I can’t remember half the proofreader’s marks I’ll likely need. The actual work will be electronic (Track Changes, etc.)–but the hardcopy test prevents people from using spell check and whatnot.

    I’m an untidy editor on paper. Do you think it would be OK to print out two copies of the test, run through one, not worrying about tidiness or correct marks, and then redo it on the clean copy, marking things neatly and correctly?
    They want to know how long it takes me to do the test, and if I include the time it will take me to look up the correct marks for thin spaces and footnotes, it won’t be an accurate representation of my speed.

    Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      I only edit on paper for my own correction these days, so I get this. I think two copies is fine, but I think for reporting the time I’d give the real time and add “including x minutes to check on proofing marks–the actual error catching and indication on its own just took xx minutes.” That way you’re avoiding any possibility of misleading.

      1. I edit everything*

        Yeah, that’s probably a good idea. It’s also a major area switch for me. I’ve been editing fiction almost exclusively for the last three years, and this will be academic, so I’m going to have to look up reference and footnote styles, bibliography formats, and the like (I assume–have not looked at the test yet). They know it’s a switch for me, though, so I think a note about getting my academic legs back would be appropriate.

    2. Susan K*

      I think the point of the test is to determine how long it will take you to do proofread a document if you get the job. Assuming you will not be redoing it on a clean copy if you actually get the job (which I think is reasonable if all of the editing will be done electronically), I think it’s reasonable for you to state the time it takes you to do it the first time around and exclude the time it takes you to redo it on a clean copy. Of course, if they ask you, be honest that you did a first draft and then copied your work on a clean copy (which is a totally normal thing to do when submitting work for a job application).

    3. My Highnessness, fka juliebulie*

      Your idea sounds fine to me. I think it also makes clear that you’ll be a lot faster once you get up to full speed on the proofreading marks. (I guess some employers would be jerks about that, but presumably they’d rather have a good editor than a lousy one who knows all the marks but has no idea where to put then.)

      I can sympathize about the proofreaders’ marks. Nobody I work with even knows what those are, so I haven’t used them in years. (Plus, I edit only my own stuff on paper. For everyone else, I use the comments/markup in Acrobat.)

      Pretty much the only ones I still do properly are the cross-out with the loop on the end (I’m sure it has a sexier name than that), and “stet.” The rest of my marks could be described as Mysterious Marks that one one could ever decipher, such as the mad scribble and large X, an angry-looking NO, “wut?,” etc. No doubt there are proper marks for this, but I don’t remember any of them.

    4. Delphine*

      I work at a publisher and we hire freelance copyeditors. I would be okay with an editor doing this. I also wouldn’t mind receiving a messy paper edit–we edit paper proofs and it’s almost always messy.

    5. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      This doesn’t help with footnote style, but for proofers’ marks I recall Chicago or maybe just Webster’s including a reference page with a key to all the marks. You could study it in advance.

      1. valentine*

        You could study it in advance.
        Yes. Find one online and use it a few times on random texts. I think you’re being too strict about the rules. A refresher isn’t cheating.

        I did a test by mail once and they circled the time it took me. I was surprised to realize they thought it was too fast, but I have no idea what they thought was a decent time.

  80. calling all safety people!*

    TL;DR Can you legally put a lock on a door from a garage bay to the rest of a building if the garage bay is not always a primary access to the building and if there is no other entrance into the bay than the electronic garage door?

    Apologies for length! (and I hope this is not too confusing! I am trying not to give too many details because anonymous)

    I know when most people ask, “Is this legal?” the answer is usually yes, but I think this one might not be. The company that I work has several locations, and one of them is a small building rented from a large corporation and located on one of their campuses. Our building has two entrances, a regular door that leads into the main part of the building and an electronic garage door that can be opened from the outside with a remote or from the inside with the button on the wall. There are no windows in the garage bay or other doors to the outside other than the garage door. There’s a door inside the garage bay leading to the rest of the building. Because of a setup with their nearby equipment, it gets triple digits hot in the garage in the spring and summer so if someone is on site all day we tend to leave the garage door open, but if we are going in and out all day it stays closed, and it stays closed all day in the fall and winter. Because of this, the door leading from the garage bay into the rest of the building is sometimes an interior door and sometimes an exterior door.

    The corporation we rent from decided that because of this the door needs a lock to prevent random people wondering into our building and put a mechanical keypad on the door. It needs no power to run but requires you to know the 3 digit code to open the door. If you didn’t know the code and the power was out, you would be trapped in the garage if you entered the garage bay from the rest of the building because you can’t manually open the garage door and you can’t get back through that door without a code. The code also somehow has a timeout feature where if you put the code in wrong it will make you wait several seconds before you can put it in again. It has already happened where co-workers have ended up having to open the garage door to get out because they put the code in wrong a couple times and then couldn’t get back through the door. Rather than wait they just opened the garage door and came back in through the main door.

    I feel like this is possibly illegal and definitely a huge safety hazard. If someone is in that bay with the door down and a fire should start, the smoke makes it likely that they will be unable to find the button to open the garage door and panic makes it unlikely that they will get the keypad code correct, if they can even find it. If it’s an electrical fire the power will go out and the garage door won’t be able to be opened, leaving the interior door the only way out, and again, if the bay is filling with smoke and someone is panicking, they aren’t going to get out.

    I brought this up to my supervisor and mentioned that I don’t think this is legal and he said he would look into it but thinks that since this is a huge corporation, he feels they would know if it was illegal. He says that since it is an exterior door half of the year he thinks it is legal to have a lock on it. If I need to I will look into my local/state laws but I was wondering if anyone on here who does safety or OSHA compliance knows if there is a federal law that I can come back with and point to and say hey, this law says this is not ok.

    1. E*

      I don’t have safety knowledge, but I agree it sounds sketchy. Don’t many garage doors have a feature where they can be operated manually in case of power issues? It might be helpful to find out whether your door has this feature and make sure everyone is trained on how to open it in the event of an outage regardless of the legality of the situation.

      1. calling all safety people!*

        It does technically have an override but I believe it requires disconnecting something from the motor/belts. Its definitely not a quick egress, which is more my concern. I think I’m getting scoffed at a little because it would take the perfect lineup of disasters for someone to get trapped and die but that’s sort of the point of safety laws. I’m not the only one concerned either, at least 2 other co-workers share my concerns. I’m just the one who spoke up.

      1. calling all safety people!*

        Thank you so much! This definitely makes it look like it is not legal and it’s something I can bring to work. I’m going to save this and do more research on the documents it references at the bottom.

    3. Natalie*

      This is likely covered by your state/local building codes as well as OSHA, and there’s a really good chance you can get a quicker response from the building inspector. OSHA is not known for being fast.

      1. CheeryO*

        +1. We were able to get some sketchy stuff at our office corrected within hours because someone called the city inspector and they came out that same day. This is definitely something to look into on a local level first.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Around here a fire marshal will come and inspect your building. You might have something similar in your area.
        Frankly your description terrifies me. Generally it’s fine to have something locked from the outside, but people inside MUST be able to exit quickly from the inside.
        A good locksmith can help with this type of question also.
        Annnd if you think you need more people looking at this in order to persuade TPTB, then your company’s insurance company would be wildly interested in this set up.

        You can google Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire or other similar fires to build your case here.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Many states have their own rules along with the federal OSHA guidelines.

      Call them and file a report. They will probably be slow to react because they focus mostly on the safety issues in highly regulated areas and those tend to get higher priority over say an office complex but they will look into it.

      Most of the coded doors are only to get INSIDE and then a sensor will open the door otherwise when you’re simply leaving. The idea is to keep unauthorized people OUT not everyone IN.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        I’ve been in buildings where they track / badge egress too, but they had crash bar overrides for emergencies.

    6. Antilles*

      Just to state my understanding (correct as needed), the only exits are as follows: (1) the electronically powered garage door and (2) the locked keypad door to the rest of the office. There is *not* an emergency exit door leading directly from the garage to the outside.
      This almost certainly is a violation of local building codes, specifically the portion mandating safe emergency exits. Building codes typically have a clear requirement that you can’t be further than ___ feet from an emergency exit that can be opened even without power, so you honestly might have been in violation even before they installed the lock.
      Also, just as a general statement: LOL at the idea that “it’s a huge corporation, they would know if it is illegal”. Yeah, I’m sure your commercial real estate MegaCorp headquartered six states over is 100% knowledgeable and completely informed about the nitty-gritty details of every municipal, county, and state building code in every single jurisdiction they operate in. Sure.

      1. calling all safety people!*

        You are correct. Those are the only exits out. There is no emergency exit door out. I used to work in a lock down facility awhile back and we had to be badged in and out of the work area by a supervisor, but we could still get out in an emergency by using the push bars on the door. It would set off all kinds of alarms, but we could get out if needed.

        And yes, I too laughed at the “they would know if it was illegal.” Because no big corporation in the history of corporations has ever knowingly or unknowingly done anything illegal :)

    7. Susan K*

      I hope you will check with OSHA or a building inspector to get an official ruling, but I doubt it’s illegal to put a lock on a door.

      I second E’s recommendation that you make sure everyone is trained on how to use the manual override on the garage door, and even better, post instructions in an obvious place (either on the garage door or on the door to the building). If it’s anything like most home garage doors, it is very easy. I’ve had to use it to get my car out of the garage during a power outage, and all you have to do is pull the handle to disconnect the garage door from the opener. You could also keep a flashlight or battery-powered lantern near the door for light in case the power goes out when someone’s in the garage.

      What I’m wondering is how someone would get into the closed garage without knowing the keypad code? If the garage door is closed, you would have to be inside the building to get into the garage, right? And if you’re inside the building, you’re presumably authorized to be there, so you should have the keypad code, right? How about posting the keypad code on the door to the garage, so you see it when you go from the building to the garage, but someone who comes in through the open garage door can’t see it?

      1. Natalie*

        The issue isn’t the lock, it’s (likely) the absence of some kind of crash bar or other override that always allows people to exit, regardless of whether there’s power, they know the code, or they know how to disconnect the system. These have been standard requirements of building codes for decades – the WP category “theater fires” gives a pretty good sense of why.

        The kind of override you’ll find in a garage door made for a single family home is not necessarily comparable, since building codes are typically much more strict for commercial buildings and multifamily residential.

        1. calling all safety people!*

          Correct. My concern is that I’m in the garage, an electrical fire breaks out, the power goes out, the place is filling with smoke, and in my panic I punch in the wrong code a couple times, now I’m sitting there waiting for the dumb thing to time out so I can try again and hope I don’t die of smoke inhalation in the meantime.

          However, the garage door is on a timer so occasionally we do run into the issue where a vendor shows up, the door is open, they walk into the garage, the door closes, and then one of us walks in the garage to find them awkwardly standing in there because they don’t know the code and are too embarrassed to reopen the garage door with the button right away. Not a huge issue because they do have a way out, just showing how someone could get in there without having access.

          1. CAA*

            I think a worse situation would be that there’s a fire in the main building just inside the locked door and the electricity goes out and you cannot raise the garage doors. Even if you know the code, you definitely don’t want to use it in those circumstances.

            1. Susan K*

              Right, I think the ability to get out through the garage door is the bigger issue. The OP said there is a manual override on the garage door, but I don’t know if that’s sufficient to meet the fire code requirements. I wouldn’t think that there would be a requirement to allow access back into the building in the event of a fire, only to get out of the building, which would be through the garage door. But this isn’t my area of expertise so I could certainly be wrong.

    9. emmelemm*

      Yeah, I don’t know about the specific situation, but as a member of my condo board, we were looking at putting locks/keypads on interior doors from the underground garage into our building because a) there were a lot of doors in to various stairways and such and b) we were having a lot of garage thefts that we didn’t want to become building thefts.

      In looking into it, there were definitely prescriptions on what we could do to be compliant with fire code. It sounds like your building is definitely not meeting those codes.

    10. MMB*

      As someone else mentioned this is probably a fire code violation. Your local fire department would probably be more than happy to send an inspector over if you call.

    11. Observer*

      Are you sure that the garage door would lock if the power failed? Because I’m pretty sure that any egress door needs to fail “safe” – ie when the power goes out the lock disengages. If it doesn’t it’s almost certainly a safety issue, unless they can claim that ANYONE who goes into that bay HAS THE CODE to go out the other way.

  81. GrammarGrammar*

    For people who conduct work in a language that is not their primary one, or people who have a lot of coworkers who do, what advice can you offer about editing written works when you are a native speaker of the work language?

    I work in academia in a very international group (which is super cool!) and as one of the few people on our team for whom English is a native language, I get asked to help with editing a lot of materials that will be submitted for publication or are part of job application packages. I’m happy to do this and was wondering if anyone had advice for the most compassionate and helpful way to edit these types of documents. I’m mostly looking for advice on helping people with English grammar and clarity without removing their unique written voice. For example, sometimes the documents are missing a lot of articles (a, an, the). A lot of the time, it is not just one or two small errors but maybe 40% of sentences need a correction. Should I just throw on ‘track changes’ and fix them all, or do something like fix a few and make a comment about how they can fix the rest?

    I don’t want to come off as patronizing or offensive, or not do enough to help and have their submission be rejected for several grammar errors. I’m not a stickler for grammar and would never correct anyone’s unless they specifically are asking for help (which is occurring here). I do know that in my field a lot of errors in a document would reflect poorly on the applicant so I think it is important to address them since I want my coworkers to succeed.

    I also want to say how impressed I am at anyone who uses a language that is not their primary one at WORK(!!!). I mostly only use my second language to consume entertainment and give occasional directions, but I would be completely lost at my workplace if I had to use my second language.

    1. Nita*

      Personally, I’m a fan of covering the text in track-changes and having the person I’m editing for accept them, if they make sense. How else will they see what needs to be written differently next time? But I also make a point of talking to them right after I send the editing text and emphasizing that all those awful-looking edits are just minor grammar fixes, and that all the important stuff looked great (or that there were only xyz key points they need to revise as far as actual content goes).

      1. LuckyClover*

        They are coming to you because they know they can trust you to help them. You are right on the nose with how hard it is to work primarily in a second language, and I don’t think most reasonable people would be offended.

        Do track changes, and offer explanations. I agree with Nita on the disclaimer as well as a complement. If you are coming across constructively and supportively, I don’t think you need to worry about hurting anyone’s feelings

    2. Reba*

      I have done this before. I think that there are different ways of looking at it/the level of work involved since you are doing it as a favor vs. if you were doing it for a fee. To be clear, I charged, but it was not for direct/close coworkers but for grad students/postdocs in other programs.

      I think the way you are thinking of the consistent errors (missing articles, subj+verb agreement, stuff like that) is right on. That is, correct a few examples and instruct them to fix it everywhere it occurs. Save your time! This labor is important to your group function and your colleagues careers but to be crass it ain’t going in your tenure file. Hopefully it will help them learn through practice, too ;)

      Word choice and rewriting, of course, you have to work on wherever it comes in the text. I mix it up between suggesting a rewrite and just noting “unclear.”

      FINALLY I don’t think it would be amiss to recommend to your colleagues that they hire an editor (grad student, anyone?) if a piece really needs a lot of work. Just as they would a translator if needed.

    3. Anon Here*

      I’ve been practicing my language skills lately. I’m struck by how mentally tiring it is to read in a language that’s not your primary one. It’s deepening my respect for people who do this on a regular basis.

    4. Pip*

      Both you and the writer should agree on the scope of your editing work (grammar/typos vs. higher level stuff such as cohesion, paragraph structures, clarity of argument) and the purpose of your editing work (to make sure the final version is polished and effective vs. to help develop the writer’s skills). Then let that inform the editing and feedback process. Sometimes, basic tracked changes is useful feedback, while sometimes you’d need some additional explanation of what the editor did and why. It depends both on the writer and the type of edits. Higher-level edits to improve cohesion or clarity would likely need more explanation than a missing “an”.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I would say tell them what you are doing and why before you do it. Since you find a lot of smaller type errors this might be a good way to handle it.

    6. Avasarala*

      I did this for a job (and now it’s an unofficial part of my job) and I work in my second (technically third) language. I appreciate your post!

      There are 3 things I consider in a “native check” request:
      1. Grammar errors like articles, prepositions, incorrectly conjugated verbs, etc.
      Some grammar errors like articles and prepositions are super tricky for non-native speakers, and the “why” boils down to “because I’m a native speaker and I think it sounds better that way.” This stuff is super helpful for them to have fixed, it’s not possible for them to catch it themselves, and you can’t explain each error to them. Throw on Track Changes and fix it all until it is grammatically correct. You don’t need to discuss it with them, you can’t explain how they can do it themselves–this is what they’re asking you for.

      2. Sentence order, word order, and things that affect style/meaning
      This is where I group everything that makes the writing technically possible to parse, but not easy to read or understand. “We are glad if you can check this” when they mean “We would appreciate if you could check this” type of thing. If this is a quick memo/informal email, I don’t always bother. But for formal writing like job applications and published writing, you should correct this. It’s nice to add comments to explain mistakes you see them repeating, inform them of style conventions, and generally help explain your thoughts as to why it feels weird. This is also helpful for non-native speakers because you want to help them sound as intelligent in English as they do in their native language.

      3. True “voice” questions
      If it’s something you can understand but you wouldn’t personally write it that way, or leaving their way of speaking helps add flavor as an affect, I like to leave it in. Especially when someone is expressing their personal opinion, like sharing their history or motivation for doing something or passion about something, this makes it feel more real and honest sometimes. Some learners want to preserve their voice and some want to erase any embarrassment of being non-native, so this is something you can discuss with them.

  82. PolarVortex*

    This is my life today:

    In a work chat where people like to post pictures of their pets – all fine with that – one person on my team posted a picture of their dog on their bed.

    The picture also included their massager of a personal nature.

    I just. I have never literally imitated that nathan fillon gif until today.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Oh. Oh no. Heh.

      I’m a little apologetic by how much I’m giggling at this.

      So, follow up on this then, is there the capability to recall or delete messages after you post? As in, if someone were to let them know that they uh, left some personal material in the picture, could they remove it? Or are they then stuck and now they know that everyone knows and saw it, and maybe better to all just politely pretend it doesn’t exist?

      1. PolarVortex*

        I mean there is, but you know, it’s already been seen by everyone. And then someone would have to point out to her she did that – not that I actually think she’d be bothered by it.

        It’s funny when it’s not causing my brain to just stop and go !!!!!!!

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          I can’t decide if, god forbid I did something similar, if I would want to delete it and pretend it never existed or have everyone politely pretend it didn’t happen. Part of me would want to make it just go away.

    4. Earthwalker*

      The person probably focused on the dog and never noticed what else was in the photo until a split second after hitting “send.”

  83. Nita*

    How do I recommend this guy? A friend asked me to pass along her son’s resume to another department in my company. He’s straight out of college, has the right degree and some work experience but not in the same field. He’s interested in an internship, which seems reasonable. Here’s the problem – the job is VERY writing-heavy, and his resume is riddled with glaring errors in punctuation and capitalization. I reviewed it and sent him some feedback. He fixed most of what I caught, but when he sent me back the resume, more weird punctuation had cropped up in the new text. The errors are so odd (stuff like using an @ instead of an &) that I think they’re coming from carelessness, not issues with grammar. All told, he seems smart, and I think he’d do great at an internship if he’d just pay more attention to his writing. At the same time, I worry how it’ll reflect on me that I’m recommending someone who has trouble with a very basic part of our work. So what do I say when I send along his resume? Add a disclaimer that I don’t know him that well, and let the hiring manager do their due diligence?

    And yes, I’ve already told the would-be intern that he needs to be more attentive if he wants to work in this field!

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      Do you have the kind of relationship with your friend where you can tell her that you can’t recommend her son for this internship since it’s writing-focused and what you’ve seen of his writing means you don’t recommend it? Also, are there any other internships in your org that aren’t writing focused?

    2. AnotherAlison*

      Ugh. I don’t know what I would do in your shoes. I had to do a very similar thing, without the concerns about the prospective intern’s ability to do the job. My guy didn’t have any errors, but it just was not How I Would Do It. I left his resume and cover letter alone and did what I could to get it in the right hands.

      (I can also sympathize with the writing part, though. . .my own college senior son just asked me to proof a research paper. Yikes.)

      1. valentine*

        you can tell her that you can’t recommend her son for this internship since it’s writing-focused and what you’ve seen of his writing means you don’t recommend it
        This is the way to go. I’d also mention he needs to get serious about his application materials.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Pass the resume along with the disclaimer that you don’t know this kid, so are not recommending him, just passing it along as a favor to a friend.

    4. Bex*

      I would probably kick the resume back to the friend and tell her that you’d be happy to pass it along once he fixed the errors and typos.

      1. Blue Eagle*

        I would NOT do this. If the resume is fixed and you pass it along, it appears that the applicant is able and willing to take the time to write correctly. Better to follow Policy Wonk’s advice and disclaim any “recommendation” of the applicant, just that you are passing along the resume for a friend.

    5. LilySparrow*

      I have used a couple of different tactics for something like this. Which one is right for you depends in your relationship with your friend.

      1) Tell the friend you’ve reviewed his resume twice and there is nothing appropriate for him at the company. Tell her that if she wants to help him in his career, she could work with him on preparing his resume correctly, and on following direct instructions.

      2) Tell the friend that you have no input on intern hiring, but you’ll send the resume to the right place. You don’t tell her that the right place is your trash folder. If she or he follows up with you, repeat that you have no input into the hiring and they should follow whatever process is listed on the website.

      3) Hand-deliver a paper copy of the resume to the hiring manager, and tell them “I owe a favor to someone who asked me to pass on their son’s resume. I don’t know their son’s work and can’t give a recommendation, but here is a copy of his resume. I’m sure you can see for yourself why I can’t recommend him.”

      The reason you hand-deliver is to avoid putting that in an email. If the friend or the son follow up, you can say you passed it along and it’s out of your hands.

    6. Nita*

      Thank you, everyone! I think I’ll send the resume along with the disclaimer that I don’t know him, and avoid any language that implies I recommend him. For what it’s worth, I’ve had coworkers who are much worse writers, but great professionals in other ways, and we have several layers of edits on most things that go out to clients. I think his writing would be a bit of a problem, but not a total deal-breaker if he does get an internship.

      1. Clisby*

        If writing is really important in this job, wouldn’t the employer give some sort of extemporaneous writing test? I mean, I’d never rely on the quality of a resume or cover letter to figure out whether someone could write; they could easily have been written by someone else.

    7. Observer*

      Do NOT recommend him. Pass along the resume, but make it clear that this is ALL you are doing without any recommendation. Like “My friend Samantha asked me to pass along her son’s resume. I’m doing it as a favor to a friend.”

  84. anonymous cherry*

    What was the most cringey/embarrassing moment?

    I’ll start because I’m just that embarrassed. 

    I was having my weekly check in with my team. I typically struggle with small talk in the beginning but eventually get better once I get to know them. Our team is scattered around, so one is in the south while most of us are in the NE. We talked about weather and the person from the south mentioned how the city shuts down when it snows. I said the only time my city shut down was during Hurricane Sandy hook and that was so crazy, and I chuckled.  

    …….
    hurricane sandy hook…

    I meant Hurricane Sandy
    it took a few seconds for all of us to realize and OH MY GOD I WAS MORTIFIED. I immediately apologized but everyone was alughing and said they understood what I meant. but omg that was embarrassing. (obv, SH was not a laughing matter, and I found it horrific.. but to confuse it with the hurricane. Ugh.

    1. Quill*

      And here I thought getting sprayed repeatedly in the face by a pressurized cannister of bacterial solution was embarrassing…

    2. CheeryO*

      As someone with a tenuous brain-mouth connection, I totally sympathize! Don’t be too embarrassed, though – at least you realized it and apologized in the moment!

      1. CheeryO*

        And to contribute to your thread, I have walked straight into a variety of stationary objects when walking around project sites. I’m always hyper-focused on listening to the person I’m with and taking notes, and there is only so much brain to go around. I’ve had people ask if I’ve been drinking (jokingly, I think…).

    3. Third or Nothing!*

      No worries, this sort of thing happens to me all the time. I once referred to a Molotov cocktail as a mazel tov cocktail. I don’t remember the context of the conversation but I made my friend laugh pretty hard.

      1. They Don’t Make Sunday*

        You all are the light of the world. One of my favorite family friends is a fast, animated talker whose speech is full of malapropisms that come at you so fast it’s hard to catch your breath. One of my favorite speeches from her involved “Tiananmen Circle.” I wish I could have memorized the whole thing. It maybe also involved a malapropism of the word “malapropism.”

  85. BackForMoreAdvice*

    Woo Hoo!
    Had an interview late Wednesday afternoon that was a bit of a left turn from what I was expecting – very generic job description and when the hiring manager gave me the real one I was actually a little shocked they actually invited me for the interview in the first place. They seemed really concerned that my background was so concentrated in one particular area since the position would only have about 1% of that. Needless to say I wasn’t all that confident in how I did but the job is very much the direction I want/need to go in order to advance. So when they called at 9:30 the next morning I wasn’t expecting good news.
    They wanted my references and invited me to a second, less formal interview where I would tour the facility I would work at and meet the rest of the team. So now I have to figure out what to wear. Both the people I talked to stressed the casual dress code (finance role in a manufacturing org renown for their design) and were wearing jeans and nice shirts in the interview and the facility I will be at is knows as “the yard”. I’m thinking I will skip the traditional suit but absolutely not wear jeans. My thoughts are black pencil pants with flat dress boots, a nice flowy tank, and knit patterned blazer (like a black and white stripe) OR charcoal grey knit bootcut pants, a fitted shell in black or white, and a wine colored blazer without buttons.

    Thoughts?????

    1. Joielle*

      I think both outfits sound great! The first one, with the black pencil pants and knit blazer, is probably what I would go with, but the other one sounds like it would also be just fine for the occasion. I think the shoes are key, in case you do some walking (I’m picturing like a warehouse or something, but that may not be accurate). Flat dress boots sound like a good idea, or maybe low wedges if they have decent traction.

  86. Kendra*

    Alison’s post from earlier this week inspired me to ask fellow managers:

    What’s a time you had an employee who was under-performing, and how did you handle it?

  87. Crossroads*

    Thoughts on sticking it out through an unchallenging job to complete a masters degree? I’ve been in my role about 16 months and it’s… fine. Environment is nice, coworkers and boss pretty good, but it was a fairly lateral move (title-wise) from my last job except my previous boss depended on me a lot and I had a lot of responsibilities and there is less of that here. I feel like I’m stagnating. Some projects I’d been promised have been postponed or tabled and I don’t feel like I’m doing anything shiny or exciting to add to my resume. On the other hand, I get free tuition and I’m starting an MBA program next semester, which will take 18-24 months depending on how ambitious I am.

    Is it worth riding out the two years to get the MBA? Maybe I’ll be thankful for less demands on my time as I add grad school to the mix? Or will I have a shiny degree but lackluster resume and find job-searching difficult?

    1. MissBliss*

      In my personal experience, I had a job that paid pretty well and was super flexible, but boring as hell. My original plan was to work at the job through grad school (about 2 years), but I didn’t start grad school at the same time, and by the time I was there a year and a half I was absolutely drained. I feel like I backslid a lot. So I got a new job where I feel better about work, things are definitely more intense juggling things, but I also feel like I can better apply what I am learning in school to my work. One difference is that my old job paid decently, but didn’t provide tuition reimbursement; this job pays very decently, and provides tuition reimbursement. That is making a big difference for me.

      1. Crossroads*

        I’m also concerned about backsliding/becoming complacent but the free tuition is a big perk. For the time being I’ve landed on looking at job postings across the company and reminding myself that not much will be posted until the new year anyway.

    2. Quest*

      I got my master’s almost for free while working at a job I didn’t enjoy and that wasn’t what I wanted to do long-term (in fact, I changed both jobs and fields later and now I am in the field I did my master’s in). The biggest benefit of the situation was of course the free tuition — MBAs and other master’s degrees cost upwards of $60k, as you know. That’s incredible value you’re getting. My job not being mentally-stimulating actually turned out to be a benefit in hindsight (although I hated it then). My brain was craving challenges — so I took all that energy and poured it into my school-work and school-related extracurricular activities, and earned that degree plus valuable experiences.

      Since you are concerned about your resume stagnating while working at this job, this is what I would recommend. Think critically and plan ahead for whatever kind of job you want to get after your degree. Actively work towards it at the same time while working on your degree. For example, that can mean changing jobs within your company to something more relevant to your future goals. If you don’t yet know what kind of job you want later, that’s okay — but it begs the question of why you think you need an MBA. So you want to think about that as well.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Look at it this way – how boring/draining will it be to pay off that tuition yourself, and how long will it take?

      And how long will it take to pay off if something goes wrong and you don’t finish?

      2 years of a “meh” job sounds like a small price to pay for free grad school.

  88. carrie heffernan*

    feel like crap today. my boss pointed out a mistake we (I) made, when it was partially us but also partially a team we have to hand hold all the damn time. I swear it’s like we do everything in our power to make their jobs easier and they still mess up and we still get blamed. he’s talking about damage control and now I just want to crawl back into bed.

  89. Allison*

    Back in June, I came back from vacation to learn that my boss had been fired. It was a shock to me, because I had no idea anything was wrong before I left, and also super bummed, because we’d had a really solid relationship and I felt valued when we were working together. He’d repeatedly told me “please don’t leave, if you leave I’m gone.” I didn’t contact him after he’d been fired, in hindsight this probably a bad idea. Then, more recently, I got laid off from the company and found out my former manager is in a new job. I connected with him on LinkedIn (either we weren’t connected while we were working together, or he disconnected from me for some reason), and sent him a message, both have gone unanswered. I’m really frustrated, I really thought he liked me and would be a good, lifelong professional connection and now he seems to want nothing to do with me and I don’t know why.

    1. Saraphina*

      He’s probably quite hurt you never reached out…i’d give it some time, but this bridge might be burned unfortunately.

    2. Rachel*

      Agreed – he probably thought of you the same way and was deeply hurt by the unexpected radio silence. I wouldn’t count on restoring this relationship.

    3. beanie gee*

      I wouldn’t overthink someone not responding on LinkedIn. I know lots of people who have their millions of notifications turned off or just don’t check it very often.

      2. KayDeeAye (Kathleen_A)*

        Yeah, I check my LinkedIn messages maybe…eh, once/month. For some reason, I’ve checked a couple of times this week, but that’s so, so, sooooo unusual for me.

        With both LinkedIn and Facebook, you just never can tell if the person you’re communicating with uses the messaging system or not.

    4. Goldfinch*

      He’d repeatedly told me “please don’t leave, if you leave I’m gone.”

      Did he mean “If you quit, I will also quit” or “Don’t take extended time out of the office, because you’re my shield and they’ll can me if you’re gone”? If it’s the second, he’s probably pissed at you because his prediction came true due to your vacation.

    5. T. Boone Pickens*

      He’s probably viewing things through the lens of you didn’t feel the need to reach out when he was at a low point but now that you’re the one on the job hunt you suddenly have the urge to reach back out and re-connect. He’s probably wondering if you actually want to re-connect or if you’re just looking to use him to help you get back on your feet and then disappear again. Unfortunately, I think this relationship is dust.

      1. KayDeeAye (Kathleen_A)*

        That’s possible, but I’d hate for somebody to assume that about me if I hadn’t answered a LinkedIn message. I just don’t check my LinkedIn very often (maybe once/month), and I don’t think I’m that unusual. I’d recommend that Allison try one more time to connect, but that she try something besides LinkedIn.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Hurt she didn’t reach out? This reads like manager saw OP instrumental in their firing.

  90. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    I’m contemplating a future career change and wondering if anyone has any stories to share, or advice to give.

    I currently work in frontline fundraising and have for four years. Right out of college I worked as an admin assistant at a nonprofit for two years, but otherwise I’ve been in higher ed major gift fundraising my whole career. I have been pretty successful and have the “people skills” needed to thrive in this role (it’s similar to high end client service or relational sales – I develop and nurture long term engagement relationships between the donor and the institution which ideally result in 5-6 figure gifts).

    I’ve realized, though, that I don’t feel my greatest strengths are being utilized and I don’t feel fulfilled in this role. I see myself as much more of an organizational and team leader, and this is an extremely isolated role. I want to contribute to the strategy and direction of the organization, but this is very much a “shut up and spout the company line” type of role. I don’t feel challenged or inspired in this work.

    If I could do any job in the world, I’d want to be part of the ownership or management team at a small/moderate sized business in my community. (My actual dream is to open a cafe with my husband, but until we become independently wealthy that will just remain a pipe dream.) I’d also be delighted to be an executive director (or on the path to becoming one) at a nonprofit.

    Does this seem like a possible career change? I’ll definitely be in this role for about another year or so due to personal matters, but I’d like to start setting up for a change as soon as possible. Unfortunately grad school is off the table at the moment due to the cost, and my other major concern is that I am extremely well compensated and unable to take a pay cut because I’m the primary earner.

    1. MissBliss*

      I work in fundraising right now and I don’t see why you would have any trouble making that pivot. My first thought is that it would be incremental– moving from individual contributor fundraising to team management, either at your current organization or a similar one– and then taking the managerial experience to a business, but to be honest, you can probably just jump straight into business. If you’re a gift officer, you’re good at selling ideas to people. I’m sure you could sell the idea of yourself as a business manager.

      Best of luck!

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Thank you! I would honestly love to be a business manager, but I guess I’d be afraid I would be passed over for not having a finance/admin background. I guess that’s where my cover letter and interviewing skills come into play!

    2. relatively recent hire*

      I don’t know if this is too incremental a change for you but I work in fundraising (formerly higher ed, now at a much smaller shop) and I think there’s a lot of leadership-type roles you could go for with a major gifts background. You could look for a Director of Development position at a smaller non-profit where they’ll look for someone who needs to be able to raise gifts and understand strategy/direction, or even a management position at a medium-sized non-profit would probably have a good amount of say in direction, depending on the place. I think the larger the size of the org, though, and especially in higher ed, the harder it is to be heard unless you’re at the very top. You could even try being director of an annual fund, which kind of has it’s own mini-world (at least in my experience in higher ed). I think once you get experience leading a team/driving strategy you could definitely transition to for-profit or a smaller business quite easily. I hope this helps!

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        This is very helpful, thank you! I think you’re right, my next step will need to be out of the rigid hierarchy that is higher ed and into a smaller shop where I can wear more hats, as I develop the strategic/operational skills to move into management. Thanks!

  91. Too new age-y?*

    BLUF: Do you think my cube decorations make me seem like a new age weirdo?

    I started a new job a few months ago and have slowly been bringing in personal stuff to decorate my cube. I have a few photo magnets on a filing cabinet, a few postcards pinned to a bulletin board, and a couple of plants – that’s pretty normal. Here are the things I’m not sure about: two small crystals, a glass evil eye decoration, and a small humidifier.

    The crystals are both on the base of one of my computer monitors, both 2-3 inches long. The evil eye is maybe 3 inches across, hanging on a hook from my cube wall. The humidifier isn’t necessarily weird, per se (it’s a dry northern climate) but it’s a little one that people would usually put essential oils in (although I ONLY use water) so I wonder if it adds to the overall new age-y effect.

    Aesthetically, I think it all looks nice and I like it. (If it seems like a lot of stuff – it’s a REALLY big cube.) But if I was your coworker, would you think it was weird/too much?

    1. Purt's Peas*

      Nah, I think you’re fine. They’re decorations. If your decorations were, like, a sign saying “I prefer energy to vaccinations” or something, that might be a little OTT. But you’re good.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No, this is just fine. Lots of people will not notice, it’s a couple crystals and a glass eye. It’s pretty lowkey.

      My dad and uncles collect rocks, so I honestly don’t even think of them as “crystals” when I see them. I’m like “Oh that looks like something dad would think looks cool.”

      I have funko pop wrestlers on my desk. You are fine ;)

      Lots of people have humidifiers if anything with that, it may give someone the idea that “OMG I need one, that’s brilliant.” Mine specifically says do not put oils in it and my response was “Wait what, I wasn’t going to…”

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      I would not even blink at a small humidifier. I’m not sure I’d necessarily notice the crystals, or really care…. but I’ve also had mini fish fossils at my desk before (which went over well, fwiw, people thought they were cool and usually took a bit to even notice them).

      The only one I’m not entirely sure about is the evil eye decoration, but that’s still pretty darn small, and if it’s pretty artistic in nature, I’m not sure I’d personally even think of it as anything but pretty/neat/artsy.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          They live at home now, with the petrified wood fossils. Now I have a welded little horse dude (made from nuts and bolts) and a little 3D printed dragon that Hubs made for me. And all the plants. A little air plant dude in a ghost (so it looks like the ghost has crazy hair) and a giant pothos, and then all the plants in the lobby have been deemed Mine to Take Care of, so because I can’t stop myself I propagated almost all of them and now we have many philodendrons and corn plants and pothoses and ficus trees.

          Current plan is to get a mini fake aquarium for the control room staff, as they’ve been very sad about not having anything alive in their office and have been told No Real Fish.

      2. Too new age-y?*

        Yeah, the evil eye is the one that made me go “wait, are people gonna think this is weird?” It’s just a glass evil eye, about the size of my palm, with a little macrame design on the cord it hangs from. I bought it when I was studying abroad in the middle east because I saw them hanging everywhere and I think they’re neat. I don’t literally believe that anyone is giving me an evil eye curse that I need to ward off, but it’s sort of comforting to have around.

    4. Jamie*

      Not weird at all – I think it sounds cool.

      I had a small crystal penguin (named Gareth) on my monitor stand for a while, but brought him back home because the crystal penguins in my bedroom missed him! :)

      Seriously, I think it sounds neat.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I have a small crotcheted penguin on my desk and a penguin paperweight! :D They’re my favorite animal.

        1. Jamie*

          I love penguins and we’re coming into penguin season. Which of my 150+ Christmas penguins will live in my office for the holidays? :)

    5. CheeryO*

      I think that sounds cool! I would only be concerned if it was an ultra-stuffy environment or if you doubled down on the whole theme with like… witchy hair and flowy dresses on the daily.

      1. Too new age-y?*

        I do wear mostly black and am pretty witchy in my own life, but like… modern city witch. Black skinny pants and long cardigans, mostly. I keep the shirts with occult symbols at home! Haha.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      I only pay attention to decorations if there are too many of them. As long as your cube isn’t overwhelmed by stuff, this sounds fine.

    7. Too new age-y?*

      Thanks for your thoughts, everyone! Glad to hear I’m probably ok on this. I’m a big overthinker.

    8. JustaTech*

      My coworker has a humidifier for her severe dry eyes and the only time she’s gotten any fuss about it was when our office was renovated and suddenly she needed a doctor’s note because it “used too much electricity”. Uh, yeah no, she got the note and whoever was being fussy gave up.

      (Which is good, severe dry eye is no joke and it’s really hard to work if you can’t open your eyes.)

  92. Data-Driven*

    My department is trying to improve their Net Promoter scores and CSAT (customer satisfaction) scores for their customers. What’s a realistic amount for these numbers to change over time?

    I feel like our CEO’s expectations aren’t reasonable and I’m afraid if I don’t speak up now, we’re going to be reprimanded for not achieving something that’s not really possible… but I’m fairly new to my team, and haven’t been able to find any good sources to back up my concerns.

    1. TurboVicki*

      hello! late to this, but i hope you see this. it takes a while to boost your csat, which i feel like you know already. good blogs for this are the zendesk blog and the helpscout blog. both are CRMs, but their blogs on customer support are pretty thorough! you can also check out support driven for more info. hope this helps!

  93. JustaTech*

    Fellow Commentors, I need some perspective.
    I have a coworker I work very closely with, who is great at her job and super smart, and is starting to drive me crazy. And I’m pretty sure it’s a me thing and not a her thing.
    Coworker has a really spontaneous style, a “hey, I’ve had this idea and I’ve started working on it!”, where I’m much more “I’m going to think about this, and do some research and not reach out to anyone outside my group until I have a really good handle on this idea.”
    For the most part I really like that coworker is spontaneous and has lots of ideas; we need new ideas. And I get that she likes to reach out to other people. In sociology you’d call her a bridger or a connector. I’m much more shy, so I’m not good at reaching out to people in other departments.

    But here’s the issue: sometimes I get really upset at coworker for just jumping into things. Partly this is that our whole department has gotten sternly talked to about *not* reaching out of our department without talking to the big boss first (ugh). And partly it’s a 100% me thing about not being comfortable just talking to folks in other departments if I’m not sure it’s right or “my place”. But also partly it’s that often coworker doesn’t have the whole picture, and will go off in directions I *know* are dead ends, and if she had asked me I could have told her “oh yeah, I worked on that 4 years ago, here’s the folder, it didn’t work but maybe you can find something useful I missed.”
    So then I feel like my work was wasted and a little bit like she’s taking over “my” stuff.

    Clearly this is a me thing, and it’s not productive or conducive to a good working relationship at all. Can you help me find a new perspective?

    1. Susan K*

      My department has a lot of turnover in management, and it seems like every new manager has certain ideas that they want to implement — the same ideas, over and over again. These ideas have repeatedly been tried and abandoned because they didn’t work, and yet every new manager wants to try them again, convinced that this time, they’ll do it right, and it will work. I used to try to discourage them by reminding them of the last time (or the last 5 times) the idea was tried and failed, but to no avail. They couldn’t be convinced unless they tried it themselves.

      Eventually, I just came to the realization that every new manager will try to implement the same ideas, only to see them fail. Oh well. The rest of us would temporarily live with the stupidity of these ideas, knowing that we would just have to wait it out for a few weeks before the new manager gave up. The moral of the story is that, while it’s nice for you to want to save your coworker from wasting time on bad ideas, she’s the kind of person who just needs to see for herself. I don’t get the sense that your coworker is upset that you didn’t warn her that you tried it 4 years ago, so it’s not your problem if she didn’t ask. It seems like the premature reaching out to other departments is potentially a problem, but probably one for her manager to address.

    2. Auntie Social*

      It’s not a “you” thing, and it would make me crazy. And probably a whole legal department crazy. Does she have a supervisor who you could clue in about “she’s enthusiastic but she skips a few steps”? Maybe the supervisor wants to talk to her, maybe this just hasn’t been explained to her in depth. You see the same thing with new hires vs. employees with a lot of institutional memory—they can tell you that X has been tried before, or that steps 1, 2 and 3 need to be taken first—licensing or secretary of state or whatever. You don’t just go set up shop without announcing it to other departments beforehand. And new hires only see a tiny bit of the elephant.

      1. JustaTech*

        See, the thing is we’re in science ad she’s really good about working within safety and regulatory and legal policy. Which is why I think it’s a “me” thing because I know she isn’t doing anything *wrong*, she’s just doing it differently. (Well, she’s messed up a few experiments by getting too far ahead of herself and missing critical steps, but everyone does that at some point and she’s never repeated a mistake.)

        Maybe it’s just that I want all that work I did to be used/appreciated by *someone*, even if it’s just a peer. And I’m sure that having a bunch of my projects get shoved under the rug for either money reasons or no reason at all isn’t helping my possessiveness about projects.

        It’s just like, this morning she told me she’d reached out to a vendor to request samples, without any indication that she knew that we had worked with that vendor on that project a couple of years ago and there might be 1) existing samples on site and 2) you know, existing relationships that need to be managed.

        1. Auntie Social*

          But that’s respect for other people. Other departments, etc. I dont know why you cant tell her that. I mean gently, but, yeah.

          1. JustaTech*

            But I don’t actually know if it’s wrong! I personally wouldn’t do it, but I’m shy and bad at remembering people’s names, so I’m just not inclines to talk to people in other groups.

            Based on her current track record people are generally fine or happy about being contacted. So it mostly seem to work.

            1. valentine*

              It doesn’t sound like it’s anything to do with you. If someone is punishing the group, that’s not on her. The one piece you might visit is telling her where she can check on old projects. I find people have short memories, though, so the vendor might not remember and/or might like her enthusiasm. She may want a fresh start, and that’s not necessarily wrong, is it? Which circles back to a you thing.

              What if you let her carry on and put the energy on something you thought you didn’t have time for?

          2. Natalie*

            Because JustaTech isn’t her boss? If other departments or other coworkers are having *actual* problems with the coworker’s approach, they’ll bring it up to the coworker or her manager directly. Having a peer “gently” suggest you change something because of vague and largely theoretical concerns about essentially politeness is not going to go over well with pretty much anyone.

            JustaTech, I’m not sure there’s much you can do besides remind yourself that this isn’t your issue. You might have to actively remind yourself of this a lot at first. That’s okay, it will sink in eventually!

  94. Brownie*

    Anyone have scripts/phrases for clients that are professional in tone, but indicate in no uncertain terms that I will not be jumping their work to the top of my queue?

    The other departments here are in the process of converting to Agile/Scrum and I could scream. I’m operations/SME and therefore immune to the whole thing, or so I thought until this last week. Now I have at least 3 teams of people who’re getting their scrum masters (and grandbosses) to harass me if I take longer than 2 hours to do what they need done and I can’t seem to get it into their heads that I’m not dedicated to their own team, I support 20+ teams. If they need something done instantly it’d better be a production problem because otherwise? They’re waiting until I have time to get to them. Everyone goes into the queue, their 2 week sprint deadline for development means nothing to me if I have production issues to work on. My go-to at the moment is “Your work is currently in my queue, I expect to have it done by ,” but I’d like at least one stronger version for when they start trying to claim that their project is more important than everyone else and attempt to circumvent my boss’s priority list for me.

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      I’d repeat your go-to but on the repeat, cc your boss for awareness. Their regularly-scheduled emergency is their problem. They should stop making it yours.

      1. Brownie*

        Ooooo I’m going to use “your ‘regularly-scheduled emergency'” with some of the clients I’m close with, that’s an excellent phrase to get them to start thinking past their current sprint deadline. My boss is getting cc’ed regularly, but can’t do much besides back me up at which point they go over his head until they find someone to come talk to me about why I haven’t done what was asked yet. Thankfully I can push back against grandboss (and higher) with “I’m doing the work according to the priority my boss has told me to” which usually makes them stop bothering me. I just really want them to accept that the answer I’m giving them now is the same they’ll get if they go up the chain because that’s where the directive came from in the first place.

        1. tangerineRose*

          ” they go over his head until they find someone to come talk to me about why I haven’t done what was asked yet.” These co-workers sound like pains, and at some point grandboss and higher is probably going to get really sick of hearing from them.

    2. Nicki Name*

      Is there a way to make your queue more visible, at least to their bosses? I.e. somewhere they can go and see that their llama grooming request is #5 in line and you’re currently dealing with one of the barns being on fire?

      Is there a way to push back and ask the teams to change their processes so they can get their requests in further ahead of when they need them?

      Is there some way to automate any of these requests, or make it possible for the teams to take care of this themselves? Access to a tool, or a new tool, or something that needs to get built?

      Is it possible to work with those teams and quantify how your department isn’t meeting their needs, and make the case for more people?

      1. Brownie*

        We don’t have any kind of formal queue to show to their bosses or them right now (software to do that is coming in 2021). They’re brand new at Agile (only a month in!) so I’m pushing back at the individual level and asking for lead time to help get them to think ahead past this sprint’s deadline, but they’ll report back now that the resource (me) wasn’t available and that gets the scrim master and grandbosses agitated. There’s no way to automate most of these tasks, they have to be done by an ops person since they’re customized to each software product/application and it’s a case of handling everything across the entire organization.

        As for more people… I have such a rant on that dealing with the current hiring process and the fact we’ve had open job postings for a year and a half at this point and no new hires to show for it. At this point all my team can do is tell our boss that we’re overwhelmed, show him the evidence, and then he shrugs his shoulders and says that there is no other option than to do the work until we get some new hires and people will just have to wait until we can get to them.

        1. consultinerd*

          Sounds like this is a major issue. You mentioned below that other teams are struggling to realize that you have lots of other requests to resolve–in addition to reminding them that you have production issues that get resolved first and a queue of other requests in front of you, can you throw the staffing issue under the bus when teams wonder why their request will have to wait a week or two? Leveraging their perception of crisis to put external pressure on your boss to actually get hiring done might help overcome inertia there.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If your queue is just first come first serve, that probably will need to change. If you have criteria for how projects are queue’d and what really constitutes a problem that jumps to the head of the queue, then you should publish it someplace accessible and refer to it when they push. I know our IT dept does that — there are something like 4 tiers and when we put in a request it’s assigned a tier by how important/urgent it is (1 person’s email is down = tier 1 they’ll get to it when they get to it; a whole building lost server access = tier 4 drop everything to figure it out right now). If your system is just that your boss sets the priority, keep referring them to the boss. “Fergus sets the queue priority so if you feel that you need this earlier than Wednesday, you’ll need to contact him.”

      1. Brownie*

        My boss is the one setting my priorities right now and he’s said that if it’s not production it is first come first served because there’s no other way to fairly distribute among all of the teams I support. I’m trying to refer them all to my boss if they complain, but they don’t seem to be taking “No” from my boss since I’ve now had grandboss stop by to ask me why I wasn’t working on things after they jumped over my boss’s head.

        We don’t have any structured job queues that are accessible to the clients right now. There’s ticketing software in the works, but that won’t be implemented until 2021 most likely, so everything right now is via emailed requests with each member of ops having their own form of a queue (up to and including post-it notes, Outlook flags, and random scribbled notes). It would have been so nice to have a job queue the clients could see up prior to this switch to Agile, but that didn’t happen.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      Also a SME in a similar situation. My suggestion is to ask them to give you the work they KNOW they need from you a sprint (or two!) ahead so that you have time to adequately address all the teams you’re supporting in the manner they’re accustomed to. Trying to do that much work for that many teams same-sprint will drive you all crazy. If it has absolutely killed production, that is an entirely different matter. But they should have groomed the backlog enough to know what’s coming.

      1. Brownie*

        Oh, I’d love to do that, but the teams have told me that they’re not thinking about sprints beyond this one (this is brand new in that these teams have never done sprints before a month ago). They leave that up to the project manager role person who isn’t technical and has no idea what’s going to be needed of operations in the future. I’m pushing back individually on folks asking to give me lead time so I can make sure I can get it done by the time they need it, but then I’ll find out that their team didn’t actually do things like architecture review and has no idea when they’ll need ops work done until they encounter it, leading to the “I need it now why aren’t you doing it NOW” complaints.

    5. ArtK*

      One of the big failings of Agile/Scrum is that if the whole place isn’t on board, it can fall down. That’s what you’re experiencing right now. I don’t have any good phrasing but this is something for your management to handle. They should be setting the expectations for the Scrum teams that they aren’t going to get stuff instantly.

      In Scrum, it’s the Scrum Master’s job to remove external roadblocks. They need some retraining on the right way to do that.

      1. Brownie*

        Most of the new scrum masters are former project managers. It’s, shall we say, interesting to see how it’s falling out as their normal tactics of escalating to bosses/grandbosses are ticking people off when it’s not project timelines, but every 2 weeks instead. The great-grandbosses are aware of the problems and have brought in consultants and provided week-long training on Agile to all employees (including ops), but haven’t yet figured out how to deal with this issue yet. I’m stuck trying at this point to get folks to think and plan beyond their next sprint deadline as well as recognize that ops is for everyone, not just for them. I might be invited to their scrums, but I’m very much not assigned to them alone, and that’s the bit they can’t seem to grasp.

        1. ArtK*

          One of the issues in adopting Scrum is what happens to project managers. They’re so used to command-and-control that switching to “the team decides” is hard. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were really doing Scrumbut… having some Scrum rituals and artefacts but still telling the development teams what to do and when. I’m very frustrated at my job right now. There’s Agile-this and Agile-that and we have Scrum teams but the whole project planning group is still pre-planning release content (a big no-no in Scrum) rather than just prioritizing and letting the teams self-schedule.

          Good luck!

        2. no kind of atmosphere*

          I’ve only ever been Agile-adjacent, but it sometimes reminds me of what someone mentioned about Lean: having a bullet-point makes-money elevator-strategy that sounds all nice and good, all it really does it shift responsibility for what they’ve decided is waste or not a good thing to have, because that need hasn’t vanished just because you decided you don’t like it.

          If Agile needs “all hands on deck” and “two weeks to do a thing”, it needs to staff for it. Otherwise it creates bottlenecks. But the deadlines aren’t really real; they’re just artificial scrums and everyone knows it. They won’t staff specifically for it so that each scrum as its own person for everything. They just want the buzzword. They won’t pay for it in staffing. (They’ll pay consultants. They’ll buy seminars and books. They won’t staff.)

          And meanwhile, if you need to be inventory 0 on the last day of the month, but have all your inventory ready to go on day 1 of the next month, you are making your suppliers into your warehouse.

          They want style, but the substance behind it is very lacking.

          1. Brownie*

            Yeah, that seems to be what’s happening here. The clients spend week one of the sprint looking and investigating things, then suddenly “Oh crud, these are all due in a week” hits and then I get hit with the 2 hours is too long to wait demands. The Agile/Scrum is giving them goals to work towards, but how it’s being implemented seems to make them feel like it’s a badge of shame not to be able to get the tasks assigned to them done by the end of the sprint and they’re using their scrum masters as cattle prods in an effort not to look bad. Before Agile it could take 2-3 business days to get something done by ops, depending on workload, and that hasn’t changed, only the Agile team’s sense of urgency has changed.

        3. CAA*

          Are these teams doing backlog grooming and estimating? They should be identifying all the resources that are needed for completion of each story before it ever gets into a sprint. You should be providing estimates for the work you’ll need to do on each story that requires your involvement and you should be allocating capacity to each sprint team you support. Nobody should be putting work in a queue and hoping you’ll have time to get to it before the end of their sprint, that’s a great recipe for failure. If the estimating and allocation is not happening, then the Product Owners / Project Mgrs / Scrum Masters are not doing their jobs. Can you have a sit-down with them and arrange to get more involved in the up-front estimating and planning?

          Each team should know during sprint planning that you expect to be available to them for 2 hours out of the 2 week sprint and that your 2 hrs will most likely occur during the first half of the second week, or whatever is the case once you’ve laid out your schedule as best you can. Then if they want to take stories that require 6 hours of Ops work knowing that you’re only available for 2 hours, they’re going to have a failed sprint and that’s their problem. They can come up with solutions in their own retrospectives. They might be able to offload some of your work onto an authorized person on their own team; they might be able to band together with other teams and sacrifice one headcount to your department; they might get buy-in and pressure from execs to hire someone in Ops who does nothing but support Scrum; etc.

          1. Brownie*

            Sigh. I wish the Agile teams knew when/how long they’d need Ops for each sprint. Heck, none of them so far have even looked at which bits they’ll need Ops for! That’s not something that they’ve been thinking about, at least none of the ones I’ve helped and then asked for more warning/lead time from. It’s not helping that there’s a major disconnect between the Product Owners and Ops in that none of the Product Owners have worked on the technical side and don’t realize that Ops has a stated policy of “If it’s not a production emergency it may take up to 3 business days to get to your problem.” (This is what happens when 5 people are responsible for Ops for ~150 active developers, Ops can’t do things instantly.) If I can help get the Agile teams to start thinking ahead and planning then this becomes a non-issue, if they don’t then at some point I’m going to wind up in my grandboss’ office telling him in a very loud voice that if the Agile teams want fast service then they need to hire a dedicated Ops person specifically for them and not rely on someone who supports 20+ teams of mixed Agile and non-Agile to support their regularly-scheduled emergencies.

            1. Nicki Name*

              “Ops has a stated policy of “If it’s not a production emergency it may take up to 3 business days to get to your problem.””

              Okay, there’s a specific thing to add to your message, if you haven’t already! If they are politely reminded every time that your policy is to have it done in 3 days, and Ops does keep delivering within 3 days, they will start learning to have their emergencies at least 4 days before the end of the sprint.

    6. LilySparrow*

      Can you sicc them on one of the other scrum masters or grandbosses?

      “I will be happy to move you up in priority if OtherTeam is willing to take lower priority. Otherwise I must process these requests in the current order. After OtherTeam leader contacts me directly to confirm their agreement, I can give you a revised timeline.”

      If they want to play cagematch with each other, let them duke it out.

    7. GreyNerdShark*

      Hey well late but maybe you will check.
      If you have a production issue then you tell them flat “production comes first.”
      Then you say “Next in the queue is Fred and Jennifer. THen you. If you need it before I have done their stuff then you talk to them . If Fred or Jen say I do your stuff before theirs, no problem.”

      In other words, make the project managers fight! Ain’t your job to prioritise one over the other, it is their job to work with each other. If they instead go to a boss you tell the others that you told Fergus he should work with them to organise a sensible queue but he didn’t. Pretty quick the aggro amongst them will get sorted by someone who isn’t you.

  95. Erin F*

    I have a question for all the individual contributors out there. My company offers a lot of training and support to managers but not much for employees who aren’t people managers.

    We are going to start developing more programs for individual contributors and I’m wondering what you all would find helpful. A lot of the ideas I’ve seen seem to be more useful for people at the start of their career (which is fine and helpful!) but I’m also interested in what would be useful for people who are more senior in their career but just aren’t or don’t want to be managers.

    1. Jamie*

      Excel – if they don’t have it advanced Excel skills come in handy in almost every position.

      Why not ask them to suggest training they’d find helpful?

    2. GreyNerdShark*

      Training for non-managers comes in two flavours: technical and soft skills.

      Most of ’em will probably want technical skills and as Jamie says Excel is good! But skills on things like how to write up information for different audiences, how to run meetings, how to write up plans for jobs to be done with clear goals and how you know they are done, they can be useful too.

  96. Anonymous Attorney*

    I’m an attorney a doing labor and employment law at a federal agency. One of my colleagues has a coffee mug that has a picture of Stalin on it and says “Dark Humor is Like Food. Not Everybody Gets It.” I am, shall we say, not amused. I get the joke (such as it is), but I think it’s not appropriate for the office, especially given the kind of work we do. Is it bad enough to be worth saying something or is this more in the “make a mental note of it and this colleague’s judgement” category?

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      I’d go with your second option. It’s in seriously bad taste and you never know who in your office might have a personal family connection to that subject matter. But I don’t think it’s worth confronting that person about unless you have a good relationship with them already.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh yes. I discovered this when I shoved my foot in my mouth, commenting that the law school at Berkeley looks like a Soviet prison (it’s really ugly Brutalist architecture) and my classmate said “I don’t know, I’d have to ask my dad.”
        Oh would that the earth would have swallowed me up right then.

    2. CheeryO*

      I agree that it’s in poor taste, but I probably wouldn’t die on that hill (assuming you aren’t public-facing).

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Tacky is rarely a good look. Yuck.

      I would just make the mental note this person has lack of judgement. Which is a reminder to everyone out there, we’re not always going to tell you to your face or run it up a leadership flagpole, there are more consequences that aren’t apparent right out of the gate.

      If you’re ever in a place to make a decision on things, this kind of thing would give you pause to put them on a big project that could get them really good exposure and such. But yeah, they thinking be dark in public is just quirky and hilarious. Yeah…no.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      This is a libertarian meme that’s been around for a while. You now have more information about your colleague.

    5. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      Ah, people will get offended at everything. My HR person has Jesus stuff. Am I offended? Yes. Have I said so? No. I am just waiting to get my Satanic Temple Baphomet statue.

      1. Observer*

        I’d say this is worse in some ways. You don’t have to be a “special snowflake” to find that piece of humor to be very, very offensive. And while offensive humor may have it’s place, the office generally is NOT it.

    6. Observer*

      Leave it. Gross and totally tone deaf. But not something that you should go to HR about.

      If you do public facing work (eg helping people who are being mistreated by their bosses), you might want to pay attention to how they treat the clients and the problems they bring along.

  97. MsChanandlerBong*

    Is it possible to teach someone to take initiative/be proactive, or is it something you’re born with (or without)? We have a new person at work, and it just seems like he cannot take initiative or be proactive about anything. If you tell him exactly what to do every minute of the day, he’s fine. The problem is that we can’t all work 24/7 so that someone is always available to provide guidance. We have had several talks with him. He always nods and says “okay,” and he does what we asked for a while, but then he stops. If you ask him why he didn’t do XYZ, he says he forgot. If this is something you can teach, what is the best way to do so?

    1. Susan K*

      I think there are some people who really can’t succeed if they are not told exactly what to do, and that’s not a problem at some jobs, but if this guy is one of them, he might be mismatched with this job.

      I wouldn’t automatically give up on him, though, because some people can be trained to be more proactive. I’m imagining a situation where he has some regular tasks to do, and then if nobody’s around to tell him what to do when he finishes those tasks, he doesn’t do anything else, but you would like him to take initiative to find other things to do. Have you told him that you want him to spend the rest of his time (after he’s finished his regular tasks) doing other work? Have you told him the types of things, or given examples of what you want him to do? Can you create a checklist for him to use when nobody’s around to provide guidance?

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        The main issue is that he is supposed to provide coverage overnight. If we don’t have someone working at night, we come in at 8 a.m. to find out that there are missed order deadlines and other problems. If someone is there at night, they can handle these problems as they arise. One of the main things we want him to do is check for overdue orders. He always checks when he first arrives, which is fine, but then he never checks again. We can’t get him to understand that even if nothing is overdue when he first arrives, a freelancer might miss a deadline an hour later or two hours later, so he needs to check periodically to see if any deadlines were missed between the time he came in and the time the next person arrives in the morning. Ex: If he comes in at midnight his time, there might not be anything overdue, but a freelancer might miss a deadline at 1 a.m. his time. If he only checks at midnight, he won’t notice the missed deadline an hour later, and then he can’t follow up quickly.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Have you specifically told him this? Not hinted at it, but very specifically instructed him that he needs to check for overdue items periodically through the night, not just once.

          1. MsChanandlerBong*

            Yes, many times. He does it for a few days, and then he doesn’t do it anymore. When asked why there are overdue orders that he didn’t do anything with, he says he forgot to check.

            1. valentine*

              he says he forgot
              And you lob this right back to him: How will you remember next time?

              Not that you should have to create endless systems for him, but if there’s anything he does multiple times, he can check then: Coffee/bathroom/whatever. Or set a calendar alert every 30 minutes. He can also print a checklist and laminate it so he can cross it off every day and won’t forget to print new ones when he runs out. (He’ll forget it exists, but it’ll buy you time.)

              Why not replace him?

          2. only acting normal*

            Not “periodically” – if he needs specific instructions make it concrete: at 0000, 0200, 0400, 0600. (Or whatever schedule makes sense.)
            If he still can’t manage it… he’s not suited to an unsupervised overnight cover job.

            1. Susan K*

              Yeah, Google Calendar can send reminders to his phone.

              I don’t think this is a matter of him not taking initiative, but of not doing what he’s told to do. He was told to check for overdue orders every hour (or however often you want him to check) and he’s simply not doing it. A responsible adult should be capable of checking something on a specific frequency without being babysat. I do think a checklist or logsheet could be very effective for this type of thing, though. It could be just a simple sheet with 8 lines (one for each hour) where he enters the time and how many overdue orders there are.

    2. De Minimis*

      I tend to start out jobs like this until I have a grasp on what needs to be done, though once I’ve been tasked with something I know that it’s expected that I continue doing that without having to be told again. Maybe work with him to have a schedule of what needs to be done and when, and expect him to stick to that.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Over the years I have worked with a number of people who have trouble with multi-step directions. They may remember the first two or three, but not much after that. If it is at all possible, give him a checklist. Some people just need the memory jogger,others may need tophysically check off each item as it is completed, then move on to the next. Good luck.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I think it depends on a lot of factors, and when you’re dealing with someone very new, you’re seeing them at significantly less than their best when it comes to initiative.

      Generally speaking, initiative requires confidence, and someone who is new to a job is not likely to be wholly confident in what they’re doing. If he’s still learning the ropes, and beyond that, if he’s still learning what he can/should/can’t/shouldn’t do, he may be more reluctant than normal to take initiative.

      I’m someone who retreats into being more reactive when I’m on uncertain ground — I’m in an industry with a whole lot of regulation and red tape, and trying to do something that you aren’t certain you should be doing in my line of work can be anything from good to disastrous. When I was new in the job, I barely dared breathe without someone telling me it was okay. Now that I’m more seasoned, I have a good grasp of what the limits are, and where flexibility does and doesn’t exist. I absolutely should not under any circumstances do Thing1, I generally shouldn’t do Thing2 but if the circumstances are pressing it might be okay, Thing3 is best practice but not wholly necessary if the chips are down, and Thing4 is a regulatory requirement that will land us all in deep crapola if we don’t do it.

      I’d be more concerned about him saying that he ‘forgot.’ That sounds less like a proactivity issue, and more like he has a bad sense of what his tasks are.

    5. LilySparrow*

      Can he use checklists and priority lists?

      There is a skill to looking at a goal or desired outcome (no outstanding orders left for morning shift) and breaking it down into discrete actions.

      There’s a skill to looking at a deadline, identifying all the stages that need to happen in order to meet it, estimating how long each one will take, and planning the order of work.

      These skills can be learned, if he wants to learn them.

      In the interim, he may need someone to make these lists for him, including how often to check on things and what to do as “downtime” work in between incoming tasks.

      Everyone who works effectively has these lists, but some people keep them inside their heads and don’t realize theyre doing it. Others need the lists outside their heads and have to be very deliberate about using them.

      The reminders and written logs mentioned by others sound like good tools.

      If he has these tools and just refuses to use them, that’s not being reactive – that’s flat out not doing your work, and you’d need to replace him.

  98. Assistant to the Norbear Ambassador*

    Do people actually read job postings, or just apply to anything that comes to their attention? This is my first involvement in a temp hire position, and I’ve seen some lovely resumes… which have nothing to do with the very specific list of tasks in the job description. And they’re for a very short term, therefore unfortunately I cannot train on the job. Think: position is matching the nail color of llamas and figuring out its chemical composition, so I get a very nice looking resume of someone who once picked up a riding crop at a stable. Out of 10 applicants, 2 might have some little knowledge of what I’m talking about.

    Is this normal?

    1. MsChanandlerBong*

      I think it’s fairly common. Some people don’t read the requirements closely, but there are also people so desperate for work that they will apply to anything and hope they can pick things up quickly. Plus, some people are required to submit X number of applications per week (e.g. people receiving unemployment benefits), so if they can’t find anything that is a really good match for their experience, they might have to submit for something way outside their comfort zone.

    2. Jamie*

      When I was looking on occasion I’d accidently hit the “one click apply” from zip recruiter emails and end up replying to things I wouldn’t have other wise.

    3. ACDC*

      For temp positions, I think this is pretty normal. In my opinion, there is a common misconception that temp positions are entry level and can be figured out by darn near anyone.

    4. pally*

      Does the job ad indicate that employer will not train? Is something like “must hit the ground running” part of the job description?

  99. Project manager*

    I commented a few weeks ago about feeling like I didn’t fit in at all at work socially. This seems to have escalated into me being left out of all of these meetings that my coworker is involved in that I am not.

    I’ve asked multiple times if I can have input on specific things, and my boss just stammers and says sure and then never follows through. Is this worth having a larger conversation with her? Or should I just leave? I feel like it’s personal.

    1. fposte*

      I’d certainly start looking–you’ve asked for more involvement and it’s not happening, so I wouldn’t expect that to change with another conversation. It could be worth having a conversation with her about your growth at the company, but more from an information-gathering place for you rather than an attempt to change her. The question would be basically “I’ve asked about participation in X, Y, and Z, but you’ve seemed reluctant to make that happen. Are there areas of growth that you think it would make more sense for me to explore?”

  100. Depressed and anon*

    I’ve heard people talk about not using Indeed and other job boards…is it that industry-specific job boards are better or that all job boards are not particularly effective, or something else? What do people do to find jobs online if not job boards…going to individual company web sites is an option of course but is time consuming.

    2. tape deck*

      I think there’s just a lot of chaff on those boards…lots of MLM “opportunities” and similarly vague and suspicious posts. I kept a few alerts for certain keywords from Indeed when I was job hunting, and it brought me a couple good leads, but mostly not. That said, I am in a field where there are a few big industry-specific boards and a robust collection of listservs, social media communities, etc. where jobs are also shared.

    3. CheeryO*

      If there are any professional organizations in your industry, those can be a good source of job leads. I’ve been able to get on a bunch of email lists without actually being a dues-paying member in any of the organizations (shame).

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      In my experience, boards and listservs that work well in one geographic area may not work as well in another geographic area. Or your particular industry doesn’t use them, but other industries do. That is to say, I wouldn’t reject all boards everywhere.

  101. LGC*

    I just want to thank LW1 from Wednesday (with the new manager that she thought wanted to quit because of imposter syndrome), because…it actually made me think about one of my own employees!

    My situation is a bit less high stakes, though. Every time I would come by his desk, he would start apologizing for taking so long with his work, for being a few minutes late, so on and so forth. For the longest, I’ll admit that I just stopped him and told him not to worry and that I’d let him know if he had any issues, and that right now he was doing well. (Which he is. He works a little slower than I’d prefer, but it doesn’t cause problems right now.) It came to a head Wednesday when he started apologizing for taking so much time on his work…when I was just about to ask him what he was bringing to the potluck.

    Yesterday, I took my own advice and asked him what was up…and it turned out that a previous supervisor he had used to always push him to work faster every time she stopped by his desk. So I think he’s just assuming that I’m going to do the same thing. The only thing is – his supervisor is a peer of mine (she manages a different department), and she DOES have a reputation for being a bit of a micromanager and pushing people to work faster. (To be fair, her department is more special needs oriented than mine, so she does need to prod her employees more! And she has a tough job. I covered for her for a month and I actually broke down crying by the end.)

    Should I address this with her? We have a good relationship (she was actually my supervisor a decade ago now), but I don’t want to be overly critical of her.

    1. Jamie*

      I don’t have any concrete advice, but I think it’s great you want to help stop a pattern by which she is breaking people, however inadvertently.

      I still sometimes feel myself fighting against knee jerk responses formed at a former toxic job and have to remind myself those crazy rules don’t apply here.

    2. Parenthetically*

      Oh gosh, as both a person who struggles with anxiety and someone who for years inherited students from the super strict micromanager who taught the grade below me — thank you for talking with your employee about it!

      But, yeah, I don’t know if you can say to someone, “Hey, you mildly traumatized a former team member, you should maybe change your check-in process with your reports.” I get the urge to offer feedback, but I don’t know if it’s going to be helpful — and I don’t think there’s a way to do it without outing your employee, either, which adds an extra layer to the complexity.

      1. LGC*

        Yeah, that’s kinda how I felt about it! It was actually kind of hard for me even to keep from saying what I was really thinking to him – because I really DO respect her, but also he is 100% right that she rides herd.

        Employee also has generalized anxiety, so that’s another layer. The way I explained it to him was that we have different management styles, and I understand that it’s difficult to adjust. (On the other hand, he’s been my report for a couple of years now!)

        I actually filled in the counseling staff about him because this has been A Thing for years. (Social enterprise specializing in vocational rehab, so most employees have counselors.) I think they’ve just accepted that he’s just Like That, but I’m hoping he’s actually turned a corner.

    3. KayDeeAye (Kathleen_A)*

      I totally get why you’d want to say something to her, but…I don’t think you can. I mean, if her current employees started complaining to you, you could consider talking to her or to her supervisor. But as it is? No. You don’t really have very much data, and you definitely don’t have the standing. I’d recommend learning from her mistakes and moving on.

  102. Swiftie*

    This is probably a silly question, but how should I go about requesting vacation time? I’m at my first job out of college at a big nonprofit and want to take a long weekend around a federal holiday to visit a friend in another city, which would require two days off. Should I just wait to ask my boss until our next 1:1 about taking the time off, or can I punch in this vacation request in our timesheet system without speaking to her first?

    Furthermore, is it too soon to ask for time off? I’ve only been here since June and have already taken two days off for a wedding, so I don’t want to look like I’m not committed to this job.

    1. Jamie*

      Do you have time on the books? If so it’s not too soon …if your PTO hasn’t accrued yet I wouldn’t ask until it was urgent.

      You can just shoot her an email with the dates and tell her you’d like to take those days off and if it’s okay with her you’ll do whatever formal request process you have.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Honestly, ask your manager how she’d like you to handle it. I’ve always done that at new jobs, like “hey, do you want me to run dates by you first? how would you like me to request?” At some jobs I’ve just put it straight into the HR system for approval; here I run it by my manager and then put it on our shared calendar. It really depends on your manager’s style and your company’s systems.

    3. ACDC*

      I would send your boss and email to give her a heads up, and then put it in the timesheet system. When would this long holiday be? Assuming it’s at least a couple months out, I don’t think that will be perceived badly at all. But like most things on this site, it boils down to your office’s culture.

      1. Swiftie*

        This is a good point – I’m not planning on doing this until January or February (basically I’m trying to tack on an extra day on each end of either MLK Day or Presidents Day weekend)

    4. no kind of atmosphere*

      Talk to your boss! Different places have different processes for taking time off. Hell, even the same place can go through different processes, mine’s gone through like 4 already. Ask how it should be requested, how far in advance, if you need to deal with coverage, etc. My place has run the gamut between “you don’t have to ever ask, just put it into the system, we trust you to manage your own time” to “you need 4 people to approve every single request”.

    5. Antilles*

      Jamie and ThatGirl are pretty much dead-on for how to do this, but just to clarify one item:
      I’ve only been here since June and have already taken two days off for a wedding, so I don’t want to look like I’m not committed to this job.
      No reasonable person would look at “she’s already taken two days off in six months” and wonder about your commitment if you request a couple extra days PTO, especially around an existing holiday – 10 days PTO is a fairly common standard in the US for new employees and it seems like you’ll be pretty well below that even after your extra few days.
      Honestly, even plenty of otherwise unreasonable companies wouldn’t think twice about this.

    6. Third or Nothing!*

      I got hired on to my first professional job in September and didn’t take a single day off until December, when my boss asked me what dates I was planning to use my prorated vacation time on. I just assumed I was supposed to wait until I had been there longer! Like others have said, most places aren’t hellmouths aren’t going to frown on you using your PTO.

      Quick question: is your vacation policy use it or lose it or can you roll it over to next year? If you don’t know, now is the time to consult the employee handbook! It would be a shame to miss out on 4 days of PTO.

    7. LGC*

      One thing that wasn’t mentioned is…is there a period where you can’t use PTO? I think standard is 90 or 120 days, although some terrible places might block you from using PTO for 180 days/6 months. You said “federal” holiday, so that could be Thanksgiving, Christmas, or New Year’s Day in the near future. (Or going out, MLK and President’s Day.)

      Just to be clear, you are fine with taking time off, and if they have a problem that’s abnormal. It really depends on the culture, but I’ve usually just dropped in my boss’s office to let her know. But that’s my job. I try to give a couple of week’s notice, unless it’s something major like me taking off the first week of the month. (I do accounts receivable, and I’m the main AR person for my department.)

  103. The Bermudian*

    Is there any chance that Alison might offer another round of resumé reviews again? Thinking about moving to Australia soon (eep!) and want to get my CV in shipshape…

    2. Sara(h)*

      Alison has posted so much helpful, constructive info on this site about resumé -writing that you can benefit from her skills without needing her personalized assistance. Yes, it will take a little more elbow grease, but all the info is right here on AAM, and then you just need someone with strong writing skills to help edit/proofread. Not to say that getting Alison’s personalized assistance isn’t of value, but you don’t need it — you’ve got her expert input already!

      1. downunderer*

        Depending on where you’re moving from – if it’s the US/North America be aware that CVs in Australia are quite different. You’d be well off checking some country-specific sites…

        1. Sara(h)*

          Valid point and great advice! The norms for formatting and presentation would probably vary. But the instructions for how to present your experience, skills, and accomplishments in a strong and compelling manner are going to be consistent across a large variety of different cultures.

  104. justkiya*

    What’s the protocol around applying for multiple jobs at one company, when you are already in the running for one?

    Details: I’m switching careers, and so despite having 20 years of work experience, I’m an entry-level hire. I’m moving into a medical adjacent field, and am very interested in working for one of the local hospitals. I’ve applied and interviewed for one position that I REALLY want there (TWO WEEKS AGO!), and it went well, but I haven’t heard anything back from them re: second round/out of the running. They said that they would be doing more interviews, but didn’t give me a solid timeline.

    My current job ends 12/31 (I’m not in the budget for next year) and I kinda want to expand my job search net. Would it look bad to apply to other jobs at the same hospital? Should I reach out to the hiring manager and nudge them for a timeline? Should I wait til I hear that I’m not being considered for the job?

    Thanks!

    1. Sara(h)*

      Hi – You can find a lot Alison’s advice about this situation by searching for key words on this blog, but to sum it up, here is how I’d answer your questions:
      1. No, it would not look bad to apply to other jobs at the same hospital, as long as you are qualified for them! Do not just apply willy-nilly for every job that is posted, but if you see job openings that are a good fit for your skill set and qualifications, you should absolutely go for them without hesitation!
      2. Re: reaching out to the hiring manager — Did you ask for timeline when you interviewed? Two weeks is nothing in this type of situation; it’s very normal for several weeks (or more) to pass after an interview before you hear about next steps. That said, it’s fine to send *one* email to the hiring manager (or whomever your contact there is) to briefly check in. Do not mention other details of your job search, just make it very to the point — that you interviewed on such-and-such date and want to check in to see if there’s any update on the timeline or where they are in the hiring process. And then if you don’t hear back, leave it be, do not contact them more than once.
      3. Keep applying for jobs until you have an offer in hand! Once you interview, you need to move on and put it out of your head. Assume you don’t have a job until you actually have one. Do not narrow your options by waiting for news of one job before you apply for another.

      1. Mike C.*

        It was amazing. I’ve never seen anything of that scale before. There were 14,000 of us, and we had a massive amount of the site to ourselves.

    2. Raia*

      So wish I could have gone to Tableau Conference – have fun! And now Code Girls by Liza Mundy is part of my reading list.

  106. limbonic*

    So I’ve got a verbal job offer and my prospective boss and I are both waiting for HR to get around to completing their process and extending the letter so I can give my notice at my current job. Such a weird limbo I’m in. My current company has no clue I’m leaving… at some point… soon…or whenever… or never… and I have to act like everything is normal… and of course do my job at 100% while I wait… knowing that it isn’t real until I get the letter… anyone else ever go through a couple weeks of this?

    1. Jamie*

      Yep – and it was so frustrating to have to wait, and because I tend to be guilt ridden I felt bad when I’d be in meetings discussing projects months out that I wouldn’t be there for. But I shouldn’t have felt bad, it’s just this part of doing business.

    2. Hi there*

      This happened to me the other way. My staff member had the verbal offer but needed references to make it official. It took two weeks for the person to actually turn in their notice. It was very frustrating.

    3. Clever username goes here*

      A couple of months! The process moved slowly because new job had to get the board to approve my salary. I felt so guilty talking about projects and clients I would be soon (in my mind) be abandoning, but work isn’t personal. Plus, as many people have said, NOTHING is final until you have a signed offer letter. Keep on keepin’ on until your letter arrives and says exactly what it’s supposed to.

  107. Quill*

    Open thread news: I just scheduled a second (phone) interview for a position in another state tonight. I have ZERO idea how to research cost of living there, or the time it would take to move, should this position be actually offered. I’m also wondering if they’d be going to this much trouble if I wasn’t a strong candidate – my area is deeply saturated with STEM grads, mostly doing contract work, and there aren’t as many in the destination city.

    Someone help me sound like an adult, ugh.

    1. Kendra*

      Research it as if you were moving there. Look for apartments, gyms, doggy daycare, the things you would use.

    2. no kind of atmosphere*

      I don’t know about the rest of it, but a quick way to check cost of living would be check craigslist ads for the city to get a ballpark on rent costs, then google to find a real estate agency in that city and search for the sort of place you’d be looking for (studio, 1 bed, house, etc) and see what the cost spread is.

      Depending on various geographies: go to instacart, if you have it, or some other grocery site, put in the address of the job, pick a generic grocery store nearby, and look up your staples. Things like eggs/milk can be a loss leader, but how much does fruit cost? How much would you be paying for your usual grocery list? This can give you an idea of normal costs.

      If you drive, there’s various sites that will tell you how much gasoline costs there right now, you can compare to your locality and see if gas will be more/less expensive. If there’s transit, you can also get a glance at how much transit costs.

    3. fposte*

      Nerdwallet dot com has a comparative cost of living calculator–just plug in your location and the new location and it gives you a comparison including a breakdown of rent, transportation, etc.

    4. Gidget*

      There are cost of living calculators online that let you compare between areas. Just do a google search. They are kind of fun to use. Also, wholeheartedly agree w/ Kendra. Look up prices for services you already use in the area.

      Also, if you are in the US using the federal pay schedule might be helpful for giving you an idea of what wages look like in the area which may point to approximate cost of living. https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2019/general-schedule/

    5. Not All*

      If you’d be buying a house, pick one off zillow (or whichever real estate site) and pull the past utility records and property tax history for it. Do this for a few different parts of town…I’ve lived in a couple cities where there was a dividing line between which utility company served you & the prices were WILDLY different. Also check into insurance rates…I was floored when I discovered that homeowners insurance on my $200k house in the midwest was going to be almost $4k/year when I’d been used to paying under $1k for comparable coverage on my $200k house in the west. Turns out hail is expensive!

      Try pulling grocery flyers for that zip code. It’s amazing how much variance there is between areas even in the big chains. I paid about 20% more for the exact same items at Costco when I moved. Check restaurant menus for the type of places you like to eat at.

    6. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I agree with the other comments about cost of living calculators, but be aware that there can be significant price variations within even a small geographic area. I moved across the country to take a job in a rural college town, assuming it would be a significantly lower cost of living than the city I was moving from. What I failed to realize was that there was an economic bubble surrounding the college so the cost of apartment rentals, etc, was exactly the same as a major city. Definitely take the time to look at ads for apartments and any other amenities you currently or might utilize.

  108. Judddddddy*

    Interviewers… thoughts on candidates pausing before answering a question?

    I’ve been interviewing for jobs and asked questions that are not common. I will say, “That’s a good question. Let me think about the best answer.” However, when I do this, I get weird follow-up questions that make me feel like the interviewer is questioning the validity of what I said.

    For example, I was asked to speak about a time when I had to get information from multiple sources, and those sources were conflicting, and no one seemed to have a solution. I took awhile to think about it, and then I spoke about a retreat that I planned a few years ago.

    Then the interviewer asked me questions like, “What was the hotel called?” “Where was the location?” “How far away was it?” In other words “Are you sure this REALLY happened?”

    I’m asking about this because it’s happened several times now, and I feel like it’s any time I don’t have a canned answer to a question.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Make it a less formal stall—“Hmmm”, or “It’s coming to me” (with a smile). “Let me think about the best answer” sounds a bit contrived to my ears. Your ears may vary.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      It may be dependent on just how long you are taking to think about it? If it’s a matter of you sitting silently for, like, a minute, it may seem like you were adjusting details to make an example fit. If the interviewer is asking for a specific enough scenario that you don’t have a clear example, it’s okay to say that you can’t think of a specific example of that occurring and offer something close or treat it as a hypothetical. “I’ve had multiple situations where I’ve had to do data gathering from many sources, and had to find a compromise, but I can’t immediately think of an example where the information conflicted. In a scenario like that, I’d ” And if, part way through, you remember the retreat planning, you can pause and say ‘In retrospect, a similar scenario did happen a few years ago’ and then continue with the real example.

      1. Judddddddy*

        Oh that’s a good idea. Make it hypothetical until you can come up with something that fits better! Thank you for the advice!

    3. ArtK*

      I think you’re making a post hoc fallacy here. You’re assuming that the pause is triggering the doubt. Frankly the one who asked “Are you sure this REALLY happened” was a major red flag. I think you’ve gotten some odd people. A rational person would allow you the moment to organize your response in your head.

  109. Eponymous*

    Disclaimer: This came out significantly longer than I had intended…

    I work for the animal husbandry department of a ranch management consulting company. For years now my department has not been fully and/or properly training its entry-level ranch hands, due to a combination of being understaffed and the company discouraging too much non-client-billable labor (despite the fact that husbandry is a profitable department; we can’t charge clients for two ranch hands when they only needed one so the new person uses non-client-billable training time on their timesheet). We have our new ranch hands shadow more experienced ranch hands for several weeks and then they’re mostly independent, but they can’t possibly be exposed to the full spectrum of husbandry experiences in that short of time which leads to problems when they’re sent on their own and aren’t yet used to handling everything themselves.

    Generally the mistakes and errors that the ranch hands are making are small and mid-level animal wranglers like me can compensate for them when it comes time to write the client reports, but it’s very much a straw-that-broke-the-camelid’s-back situation. I feel like every single ranch I’ve written a report for recently has had some error in the husbandry documentation. Sometimes the documentation is seriously deficient (to non-existent) and I spend a significant amount of time either asking the ranch hand a dozen questions, or, worse, taking the few pieces of information I do have and working out the details myself. If I have to spend another afternoon looking at photo timestamps and shadows and solar charts to try to figure out if the barn in this week’s photo is the same as the barn in last year’s photo but Farmer MacDonald finally got around to making repairs or if it’s a new barn entirely and Farmer MacDonald neglected to mention that to us, I’m going to crack.

    I always let the ranch managers (in my department) know when serious things happen, and they’re supposed to meet the ranch hands to discuss how they could do better in the future, but I feel like it never happens. My department also has a standards and practices team and I’ve been letting a trusted senior manager on the team know what’s going on, and they make sure it’s addressed at the team meetings but again, I feel like nothing ever comes of it.

    And now the animal husbandry department is undergoing yet another reorganization! The senior manager on the standards team has told me that the team’s hands are basically tied until next year when the reorg takes effect, and that all of the staff will be under a new even-more-senior manager who is aware that there are some issues but who presently doesn’t to much hands-on ranch-hand management and probably doesn’t know the full scope of the lack-of-training and lack-of-accountability issues.

    I know I need to start getting some organized documentation together about this to take to the new even-more-senior manager but, (a) I know he’s a nice person but I don’t know him well enough to be able to judge how much I can say (since I am just a wrangler), (b) he’s going to be managing a much larger group of staff than he has in the past and will likely be somewhat overwhelmed by that already, and (c) I don’t want to flounce into his office and say, “Congratulations on the promotion, here is a heaping pile of llama poo that needs to be dealt with immediately or animal wranglers are going to start quitting even more often.” I’ve been volunteering to develop and lead training sessions (something I did in a previous job) for over a year but the department hasn’t taken me up on it (in part because it would be non-client-billable time for both me and the trainees). The local university’s professional education department even has a semester-long online course on developing online training for adults which I’m willing to take, but it’s expensive and time-consuming and I won’t do it without the department’s go-ahead.

    I’ve been tempted to make the mental switch into if-y0u-don’t-care-then-I-don’t-care mode, but that won’t stop the ranch hands from continuing to produce poor documentation for the ranch reports, and I won’t compromise the quality of my reports. And for now I have to stay with this company; the department has allowed me to switch to part-time but maintain benefits so that I can return to university part-time. I’m unlikely to find another job that would let me do that.

    So, do I keep up my current documentation and discussions with ranch managers knowing nothing is coming of it? Drop it for now and keep doing my best? Amp up my documentation of the deficiencies and plop it on the new manager’s desk come new year? Quit and ride a camel majestically off into the sunset? (There aren’t camels here so that last one may be difficult.)

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      Yeah, I’d say document, document, document. Can you also slow down your work, or point to the increased time it takes to do everything as a reason why you can’t get as much done? It’s hard to be productive when you have to shake people for details.

      1. Eponymous*

        My direct supervisor knows about all of this, but so far I haven’t gone over the clients’ budgets so it hasn’t become a financial problem. Either the ranch hand spends an hour at the ranch writing better documentation or I spend an hour in the office puzzling out the missing information, it all works out in the end. And unfortunately my skills at puzzling-things-out are well known and I’m intentionally sought out for certain projects where the ranch managers know the documentation is lacking, so I’m probably seeing more of the problem than the average wrangler.

        I have a stash of PDFs of problem documentation, I guess I should start writing up a sort of note sheet to go with them.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ah the life that is untrained/limited trained line workers. I see it frequently in my line of work as well.

      With new leadership coming in, I encourage you to start off with the open dialog. As a new leader, he knows he’s going to get that landslide [if he doesn’t…he needs to reevaluate his career choices!]. Don’t look at it as dumping llama poo oh his head. Think about it as being kind, courteous and bring a new exec into the the full view of what he’s dealing with. Shine that light bright and long.

      Try to condense everything as much as possible, don’t dump the bucket. Just pull out turds and place them in front of him to observe as you talk about each issue. And have the back up documentation to share with him.

      Good leadership wants this and will appreciate knowing what they’re walking into. They already have their boots on, they know they’re wading into a muddy poopy stable of problems, that’s part of the game.

      New leadership is the best to mold and shape to your needs! Give them a chance. Don’t turtle and decide to just say “Not my problem!” when you do deep down care. You care for a reason. You care because you’re a hard working ethical person who cares about the entire company and departments as a whole, your insight is valuable. If they say it’s not, then they suck and you deserve better. But give them the chance to tell you that they don’t want the information, most reasonable good managers want to fix broken things.

      1. Eponymous*

        Thank you so much for continuing with the poo metaphor :) I’ve just been handed an unusual llama of a project and needed the chuckle. It turns out that I was the ranch hand for one day on this project, so at least it will be easy to track myself down for questioning.

        I think the senior manager on the standards and practices team is going to be given the new even-more-senior manager a heads-up about what he’s going to be facing when it comes to training, so at least he’ll be aware of the impending llama poo before I display particular specimens to him for discussion.

  110. Mid*

    I’m in my first full-time, permanent position. Annual reviews are in April (I work for a law firm, all staff are reviewed in April, regardless of when they were hired.)

    -I’ll have been in my position for 8 months then
    -I’ve taken on the work of two people, the person I replaced and a coworker who is on medical leave. She’ll likely be back at some point, but I’ve been told that part of her duties will be permanently transferred to me.
    -I’ve gotten great, positive feedback from clients and firm attorneys alike.
    -I have some concrete deliverables that I’ve worked on as well as more abstract projects
    -I know the pay range for my position, and while I was hired towards the top it the pay range, I’m not at the very top, and I think I could ask for a raise that would bring me closer to the top of the range.

    I know it’s early, but given the rapid expansion of my duties, and the annual review structure, I think I have a pretty strong case. I will not be upset if I don’t get a raise, as I feel I’m very fairly compensated for my work so far. But it never hurts to ask, right?

    So my question is actually two.
    1. Am I wildly out of line to even think about a raise prior to the one-year mark?
    2. What should I do to prepare to ask for a raise? I’ve never been in a position where raises were a possibility. How much of a raise can you ask for? I know it’s usually 3-5% right? But I think the firm does 3% COL already.

    1. Jedi Squirrel*

      Go ahead and ask. The worst they’ll say is no. There’s also the possibility that you’ll get it, but it won’t go through until you’ve actually been there a full year.

    2. Gumby*

      1. Nope, I got my first raise at this job 3 months after I started. Same reason: it’s when the annual review process happened. It wasn’t a humongous raise – something like 3% – but it was a raise. Basically a COL increase.
      2. No idea since I have never requested a raise of any sort – they just happened. I am not great at advocating for myself. Thankfully, I have worked places where good managers have advocated for me. In general I’d say 3 – 5% if you are doing an great job but staying in the same position, more if it is a promotion of any sort – even if you are keeping almost all of the same tasks moving from Llama Groomer II to Llama Groomer III counts.

  111. Lovecraft Beauty*

    Is it a terrible idea to send feedback about my company’s 401k vesting policy?

    After 6 months of service, the company starts to contribute 5% to the 401k (you’re always able to contribute via deductions), but this isn’t vested at all until 3 years of service.

    I think this cliff is a terrible idea that has a disproportionate impact on more junior employees, and I’d like to advocate a little for change. My previous employer, which is very comparable to this one — they’re direct competitors, in fact — had a retirement plan with 100% vesting from day one, and so does at least two other comparable companies.

    Terrible idea which will brand me a troublemaker with HR forever, neutral but almost certainly useless idea, good idea with real possibility for change — what say you, AAM commenters?

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      I think it depends on your status with the organization, and your sense of whether there’s a willingness to change.. How long have you been there? How well-respected are you? How responsive is your HR team? What are their decision-making processes (for something with a potentially significant financial implication)?

    2. fposte*

      I’m between b and c. Cliff vesting isn’t hugely uncommon, and 3 years is better than some places, but there’s no reason you can’t advocate for a different policy. Given that there’s a direct competitor with a better plan, that sounds like a good hook–“I’m concerned that prospective talent is choosing Them over Us when we could level the playing field.” But it’ll cost them more and they may be wedded to the current policy, so I wouldn’t turn it into a fight or hold high hopes for change.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Is the competitor’s plan better? Lovecraft Beauty knows, but we don’t — for example, perhaps the competitor’s plan vests immediately but only offers a match (not an independent contribution), or a lesser contribution.

        (I’m just over here salivating at the amount of contributions they’re offering! My org matches 25% of my contribution, up to a total of 3% of my salary…. so if I contribute 12%, they’ll contribute 3%. Yay?)

        1. fposte*

          That’s a fair question–I was taking from Lovecraft Beauty’s terminology that the other plans are overall better, but it might be that they vest immediately but the match isn’t good.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You should always voice your feedback about benefits when you get a chance.

      Do it respectfully and state your case. Just realize that it’s probably not going to change, they do this because they’re cheap and are using it to try to be a retention tool. They probably feel generous, they used to have a 5 year vesting schedule at places I’ve dealt with.

      It’s good to have this kind of thing on the record, the more people to speak up the more probability they will rethink the decision. Just don’t go to war with them or something, constantly bringing it up and beating it into their heads will make you less likely to be taken seriously but there’s nothing wrong with bringing it up.

    4. LQ*

      In addition to the points others have brought up I’d say how big is the company and how flexible have you seen them be?

      Cliffs like this are really common in my experience. They are there for exactly the reason they seem to be, they want people to stay for a few years because it always takes people time to get up to speed and to start being really productive. I think most people overvalue their initial organizational contributions and WAY undervalue their longer-term ones. (You likely aren’t bringing in as much as you think you are in years 1 & 2, but you are likely bringing in much more than you think you are in years 7&8.) So yeah, they are trying to get you to stay long enough that the company feels like their investment is worth it.

      I do think you can pitch it, especially if the company is smaller, has a lot of flexibility, has avenues for this feedback, or is talking about getting and retaining good staff (if they’ve said “net promoter score” BLEH, then definitely bring it up). And even if it is really big and slow-moving if you just bring it up. The only want to end up a “troublemaker” with this I think would be if you sent in 50 suggested changes to HR in a month or something. Ok even 10 changes suggested in a month would be a lot, but 1? Is fine! No reasonable place would say this is trouble making to bring up once.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      You can respectfully bring it up, sure.
      Meanwhile, I will respectfully point out that my previous employer had a five year vest and my current employer offers no matching at all. So, you know, enjoy what you can.

      1. Natalie*

        I worked at a place that offer 0.25% matching. I mean, why even bother, except that you want to be able to say you offer a match?

    6. Mediamaven*

      This is not a terrible policy and I wouldn’t push back on it. 401k match is a fantastic benefit offered by companies and not something people should expect. Cliff vesting is intended to retain people. Companies aren’t obligated to give free money and a lot of companies don’t match. I wouldn’t speak up.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Free money? Hell no, this is a part of your benefits package. You are earning it by working there. I wouldn’t even consider working someplace that doesn’t offer a decent match. Retirement is expensive, and treating something so basic as a great favor or “free money” is absurd.

        1. Mediamaven*

          It’s part of your benefits package but it’s certainly extra money that the company isn’t entitled to give you. They’ve decided to provide it as an incentive for you to stay longer. There will always be companies that have better benefits but that doesn’t mean the policy you get is a poor one. It’s great that you wouldn’t work somewhere that doesn’t have a great match but that isn’t always commonplace for many industries.

    7. Admin of Sys*

      That’s pretty common from what I know? The 2 companies I’ve been with that did matching or independent contributions had a 3yr vesting timeline. Similarly, the company I was at that did retirement pension had a 3yr delay before it was vested (which was far more annoying, since that came out of my paycheck – they’d give me back my money if I left before the 3 years, but I wouldn’t get any of the investment or interest the company had accrued) .

  112. Lucette Kensack*

    I’m having one of those days where my agenda was totally derailed by needing to write a long, detailed email. Something blew up, and I need to cool it down and reset our trajectory. You wouldn’t think an email would take all day, but here we are.

    (Of course, it’s not the email itself — it’s figuring out what needs to happen and what needs to be communicated in the aftermath of the blow-up.)

  113. Free Meerkats*

    I’m off today to go to the Auto Show, but just got a text from one of the guys who works for me. We’re doing a project where we’re doing lots of manhole sampling. They heard someone calling for help and found a woman with a broken foot. She was in a canoe, nowhere near any water.
    I can’t wait to get the entire story tomorrow when I go in to sample (for this project, we’re working 7 days a week.)

    2. no kind of atmosphere*

      I’m gonna assume the canoe came off something being hauled by a car/truck, but I love the idea that it came from the sky.

      1. Joielle*

        That’s what I thought too, but then I realized, why would she be IN the canoe?? Mysteries for the ages.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      In my head, this is a ninja turtles scenario and it is April O’Neil in the sewers, yet sitting in a canoe on the side of the channel.

    5. KayDeeAye (Kathleen_A)*

      *I* think the canoe only looks like a canoe and that in reality, it has hundreds of little pink feet – like the Luggage in the Discworld novels.l

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Be prepared to take notes and meet people. Really, just be prepared to listen a lot and remember you will never learn everything in one day or even the first week. One bite of the elephant at a time!

      Congrats!

  115. NeonDreams*

    My boss took me aside today and said she wanted to see one of my metrics improve. She said nicely but directly. She didn’t give me any number to meet, just that she wants to see it improve. Which I can do.

    I’ve felt myself shut down the past few weeks because I’m just so tired of this work. I know I’m not supposed to slack even thought I’m miserable. But my brain capacity keeps shrinking along with my investment. I’ve been withdrawing somewhat to try protecting myself from disappointment that things haven’t changed. But now I’m adversely affecting my performance, which is the last thing I want.

  116. Leslie Shellstrop*

    Currently thrilled to be pregnant with my first child. Any tips on how to stay motivated during your first trimester at work? I’m only 5 weeks right now, so the symptoms haven’t started in full force yet, but I already find myself being super easily distracted and not as sharp as usual. I have also spoken to a few women who have taken maternity leave while at our company, and they all told me how awful the entire process was (we get no paid leave from the company, just short-term disability and FMLA, and you’re required to use all vacation and sick time for the leave). So I think that is coloring my view and making me a little less engaged than I usually am.

    And, related, we’re going to be rolling out a new intranet platform early in the next fiscal year (which happens to start about when I’d go on maternity leave). I’m the only one in this role and barely have a backup. Do I owe it to my boss to disclose earlier than 12 weeks? Or do I hope we don’t get an implementation timeline figured out before then, and we can adjust our plans when I let her know around 12 weeks? Thanks :)

    1. Jamie*

      You don’t owe your work disclosure one day before you are personally ready to disclose. If time lines need to be shifted down the road they can shift…as they would if you had to take leave at that time for any other reason.

      Congrats!!

    2. LGC*

      Congrats!

      On the last question – you shouldn’t need to disclose unless it’ll take you six months at the absolute minimum to train a backup. One of my employees just disclosed she was pregnant, and I privately thought she was super early. (She’s at about the same point as you.)

      If you’re at 5 weeks, 12 weeks is…early January. That’s quite a long lead time. You’ll be fine, I think. If your company gives you a problem, that’s a red flag.

    3. Bear Shark*

      Naps. First trimester with the first kid I had days I had to take a nap some days when I got home. That or I had to go to bed super early just to have the energy.

      Don’t disclose earlier than you want to. 6 months is plenty of time. In my experience, a few weeks extra advanced disclosure doesn’t make a difference. Either 6 months is plenty of time for your boss to plan, or else no amount of notice would be enough and they’ll waste the time anyway. Looking at you, manager during my last pregnancy who had 6 months and still didn’t get a plan in place until the day before I had the baby, so I had 1 afternoon to train my maternity coverage. Dunno what they would have done if I’d gone into labor that morning instead of that night after work. My first baby was under a different manager at the same company and they had a plan in place ahead of time.

    4. Rey*

      Congrats on the pregnancy!

      I can’t tell from your post if you are excited about your job and the implementation stuff. Do you think the lack of motivation is a general disinterest and lack of satisfaction in your current role? Combined with your company’s terrible maternity leave policy, I wonder if you’d be interested in switching jobs. There has been some research that suggests new mothers are more likely to return to work when they are excited about their job, and while conventional wisdom used to say that early pregnancy was not the time to switch roles, more and more women are having successful job searchers, even while visibly pregnancy. I’ll post a link in a separate reply.

    5. Ranon*

      Totally normal to not be as sharp as usual. Your body is growing a new person (and, right now, an extra organ), and the nausea, if you’ve got it, is incredibly mentally draining. I made lots of lists and got all the sleep I could which helped some, but first trimester is a slog for sure.

      As for advanced notice, I’m not convinced anyone really believes you’re going to leave to have a baby until you actually do, no matter how far in advance you tell people- second trimester is plenty of time for them to start procrastinating on dealing with the news.

  117. cathammock*

    Has anyone had a positive experience with taking a job the second time applying for it, after the position was originally closed without a hire and then later reopened? What did you find the reasons were for delaying the hiring process?

    I’m job searching and was interviewing for what seemed like a promising position. Then I suddenly received an email notifying me they’d decided not to hire now but would restart the hiring process again in the foreseeable future. I wasn’t far enough along in the process to have a strong sense for whether cancelling the hiring process indicates some serious internal problem, but I may also be biased against orgs that do this because of my past experiences.

    Namely, I’ve seen this happen at both my current and previous workplaces. For the position I’m currently in, I applied, heard nothing in response, then saw the job reposted again a couple months later and I asked if I could still be considered. After I was hired, it turned out the stopped the process the first time for a variety of reasons that amounted to understaffing, administrative chaos, and lack of clarity about what they actually needed from the position. At my previous workplace, I also saw this happen multiple times, always due to some serious problem such as a major budget shortfall or senior staff resigning without notice.

    I understand that there can in theory be good reasons for stopping a hiring process in progress without it signalling deeper issues, but has anyone actually encountered this?

    1. Bear Shark*

      I did not have a positive experience in this situation. I got the job the second time applying for it about 6 months after the first time but I don’t think they had closed it without a hire the first time, I think the hire from the first round quit or was let go. I didn’t stay long either as I quit within 6 months too.
      In my industry just deciding not to hire now makes me assume that they lost a contract that the position was intended to be staffing for.

  118. Glacier*

    What language can I use when coaching an employee on email clarity?

    Background: They’ve been with my firm for a few years in an administrative role, and have recently moved into a technical role that’s new to them. Their emails are usually one paragraph, and the sentences sometimes run on. (English is their native language.)

    I don’t know if it’s because I place a high value on easy-to-read emails, but it’s really bothering me. How important is this, and how should I approach it if I do say something?

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      Who are these emails going to? Is it just to you, or do they go elsewhere? Have people had issues with them? I’d lean toward not doing anything if they’re clear enough and people haven’t had any problems (a one-paragraph email wouldn’t make people stir a hair at my workplace).

      However, if you think it is a problem that needs fixing, I’d say use concrete specifics. Do you want a one-line tl;dr up front? Ask for that. Do you want a maximum line limit and sentence-length limit? Ask for those. Show them on a sample old email of theirs what it would look like to write the same message under the new guidelines.

      1. Glacier*

        Thanks, fposte!

        They’re going to executive staff at my office, so folks who get *a lot* of email. I’m not concerned about the use of paragraphs, but sometimes the emails are so short that they could be bullet points, and it can be difficult to read a block of text that has a request-for-action buried in it. I think what’s actually getting to me are the run-on sentences.

        A tl;dr at the top would be great! Thanks for the suggestions.

      2. Donkey Hotey*

        Seconding the formal TL;DR (ahem, “Summary”) at the top.

        I’ve sent many emails with that at the beginning, then very well flagged “Background” “Impact” “Solution” paragraphs so that people can realize that all the verbiage has a point.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I would focus less on the language you use and more on being very precise on what you want to see out of them, and how important it is to you.

      Do you want to encourage something like a BLUF (bottom line up front) format? Are you looking for subject lines to contain specific information? When it comes to coaching someone on something as abstract as email writing style, the more concrete you can be, the better. Unless their messages are going to external clients or VIPs in your company, I would be much less concerned about simple grammar issues like run-on sentences that don’t obscure meaning.

    3. Eeether Eyether*

      Since they are new to the position, you could also set up a 30, 60-etc. day review of how things are going in New Job and bring it up then. I don’t think it matters if the emails are internal or not. Sloppy emails reflect poorly on the sender, no matter the recipient. Suggest their spell and grammar check are permanently set to “on.” I have the same problem at my office, and sometimes English is not their first language, sometimes it is–doesn’t seem to matter. I use bullet points helps me from sending overly long emails, especially if I am trying to explain something and/or need a response. If you are the recipient of some of their emails, you could use one of them as an example of how the email could be clearer, make sure they know their audience (some folks love detail, some don’t), frame it as a learning experience–new position, new expectations. Good luck!

  119. JustaTech*

    If you ever want to piss off every manager in your entire company, have I got a new method for you!

    Insist that every manager record every one-on-one meeting they’ve had with *each* of their direct reports for the last *year* in a public spreadsheet (complete with notes on what was discussed), and then give them two days to do it. For added drama, make sure to be super unclear in your directions but be very firm that this is how their management goal will be evaluated in their performance review.

    1. Lyudie*

      …wow. As an employee, I’d be livid if everything we talked about in my 1:1s was public. Not that expect my manager to keep everything I say confidential, but I would expect some amount of discretion and to be able to talk about private/sensitive things if needed.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yup. And that’s part of why the managers are mad too. (And the huge amount of work of just typing all this stuff up.)
        Like, I don’t care if anyone else knows that my boss and I talked about my projects. I would care if he were obligated to share how upset I was for getting my head bit off my leadership over nothing.

        And for the people who have to have one-on-ones about poor performance? Yeah, that’s not the other managers business (until it impacts them) and not something that needs to be in a spreadsheet half the company can read.

        I think the managers are planning on saying things like “talked about projects” “talked about training” and other basically meaningless phrases.

        Like, I get that HR wants some nice numbers they can point to for evaluating managers, but this is a terrible way of implementing it (and doesn’t really get you meaningful information).

        1. Lyudie*

          I’d love to see my manager doing this: talked about dog, talked about cat, dropped the F bomb three times. lol

    2. Bilateralrope*

      So they want to open themselves up to complaints of retaliation because someone saw than someone else complained about them ?

    3. Kat in VA*

      I’m my manager’s EA. Part of my job is hearing about his direct reports. No freakin way would he put that information in there.

      Also, our language can be quite colorful behind closed doors. A verbatim accounting might be rather shocking to more staid members of the company.

  120. Scully*

    I work at a fairly young, veteran owned company with approximately 50 employees. Last week was Veteran’s Day (in the US) and only those who served were “allowed” to take this day off. Non-Veterans were told to report to work as usual.

    This seems…wrong? To give only certain employees off on a national holiday? I understand no company is required to give any holidays off, but to target only a specific group seems off. Some veterans at this company chose to work because they did not agree with only a handful of people being allowed to take the day.

    Thoughts?

        1. JustaTech*

          So some people were getting paid more (one day more, but still more) than others based only on their service record? That sounds … not great.
          (For the record I think that more companies should celebrate veterans day as a day off.)

    2. CheeryO*

      I don’t think it’s that weird, especially for a small, veteran-owned company. At least in my area, it’s very uncommon to get Veteran’s Day off, so it’s really more of a bonus for the few people who can take advantage of it.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It is kind of weird because you’d think they’d just shut the place down and observe the day like the banks/government operations.

      Is it a place that needs coverage at all times, so shutting down isn’t acceptable? That would be my only idea here of why they’d decide to only let Veterans take the day off. But yeah it’s not necessarily fair but it happens here and there, it’s nice that some people opted to work in solidarity.

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      Just because it’s a “national holiday” doesn’t guarantee that it’s a day off. Of all the places I’ve worked, the only place where Veteran’s Day was a regular paid day off was working for a financial institution.

      Beyond that, as a vet myself, I’ve often grumbled about how it’s an empty holiday and wish that only Veterans get Veteran’s Day off. I’m glad to see someone’s making it a reality.

    5. Parenthetically*

      I mean, yeah, this seems odd and problematic to me too. Military status is in fact protected under US employment law — surely that knife cuts both ways? At the very least it’s not cool.

    6. WellRed*

      I think they should have just closed, so as not to treat employees unequally, but I can see both sides. Veterans get lots of extras that us civilians don’t and I think they deserve every one of them.

    7. Bertha*

      Hmm – my inclination was to say it felt wrong, but apparently there are four states (Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Oregon) that actually require businesses to give Veterans Day off to veterans. However, they can choose if it’s paid or unpaid. I guess even seeing there are some state laws that would allow this makes it feel more “normal” to me, but .. it’s also interesting that some veterans worked because they felt it was an unfair policy. I don’t know!

      2. Penny*

        I live in one of the states you listed, and my employer also gives Veteran’s Day off as a paid holiday to veterans. It never struck me as weird. We don’t have a large number of veterans. Just a handful. We also get a decent number of paid holidays, and so it doesn’t feel like the company being stingy about that. It comes off as a bonus day for a few people to whom the holiday has a personal meaning. Anyone else is free to use PTO or just take the day off unpaid if they need or want to.

  121. rosegrows*

    Are the rules any different when applying for a government job? Should the resume still be 2 pages? There is a section for “skills,” where I can list anything I want. Should I put as many of the skills from the job posting as I can? They’re pretty generic, and are the type of things that most people with my experience are likely to have encountered (like using the most commonly-used software in the field). However, some people won’t have that experience, so should I make sure to list it in the skills section? Or should it just go on my resume within a sentence? (“Using Software, executed whatever.”)

    1. rosegrows*

      I guess I should specify that it is an application, with the option to also attach a resume.
      It is a state job.

    3. Not All*

      Federal job? No. Unless you are applying for like a GS-4 and are still in college you should be much, much longer than 2 pages. Most experienced professionals will use every character limit in the USAJobs fields.

      They are NOT resumes per se…they are applications. You need to include every detail they would need to know to select you over other applicants. You need to use the exact same terms the announcement uses…the initial screen for qualification will be done by an HR person who knows nothing about the specific specialty you are applying for and is quite likely reviewing literally hundreds of applications in a day…they do not have time to figure out if “teapot painter” is the same thing as “teapot artist”.

      Every applicant who makes it past the initial screen and to the interview stage will be asked the exact same list of questions in the exact same order. Most federal agencies/positions are prohibited from probing more or asking follow-up questions to help ensure a level playing field. If you think they may have concerns about something with your candidacy, it is on you to figure out a way to work that in to your responses to the pre-set questions because they are prohibited from asking you directly unless they ask every candidate the same thing. (They can ask your references some extra questions, but not everyone does to err on the safe side.)

    4. CheeryO*

      I would attach your normal resume, whether that be one or two pages, and use the application fields to list your skills. Definitely list the basic stuff, even if you think it’s silly. Definitely use the same phrasing that the job posting uses, whenever possible. Err on the side of more information, not less. Pretend a robot is reviewing your application, and the robot is really terrible at making any sort of logical leap. That’s sort of what the state hiring process is like, since everything needs to be as objective and equal as possible.

      1. rosegrows*

        Wow, I’m very glad I asked! Thank you to everyone.

        One follow-up. They don’t specify a number of references. I don’t have many; what is good number to aim for? Or should I just use the most relevant- which would only be one or two?

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      I’ve noticed that what (US) government employees call a resume, most everyone else calls a CV. VERY long and detailed, multiple pages, etc.

  122. Vendelle*

    My employer called me the other day about a rather difficult issue: the place she rents where I work has said the lease won’t be renewed, so she’s looking for another place. She has found a promising place, but she can’t rent it on Tuesday, which is the day I work there. She’s basically asking me if I can figure something out, but I’m having a hard time with that. Basically, the only way to do it would be to go and work for her on Mondays, but that’s the day I rent an office of my own and I am starting my own company and building my client base. Also, while there are no clients yet, I use this day to do fun atuff with my husband, who works Tuesdays through Saturdays). One other option might be to try and switch days at my other job, but that’s a potential nightmare I don’t want to take on right now.

    Financially speaking I really can’t afford to drop the one day, because we’re barely getting by each month as it is.

    What would you do in this situation? What would you say if your employer gave you this news and asked you to think it over?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you have to go into the office? Would it be possible to work remotely instead?

      This blows my mind, I’ve never rented space by the day, is this like a special thing? Are these super common? Someone needs to tell this little hillbilly what’s up with this setup! Is this a big city micro small business thing?

      1. Vendelle*

        I work by appointments, so yes, I do have to go in. The company I work for is very small, just the owner and 2 employees, one of which is me.

        The space is a room inside a larger building and I’ve been here for years, but now the owner of the building wants to expand and I have to go, which is why they’ve said the won’t renew the rental contract. :(

    2. WellRed*

      Can she rent the space you rent on Mondays for Tuesday (I think I’m reading this correctly, all this rental of space is not something I’ve heard of).

      1. Vendelle*

        I’m afraid not. I rent a space in city A, and she rents a space in city B, which is more than 30 mins away and the nature of my work means that is not a viable distance for the clients I work with.

    3. LilySparrow*

      Since you have no clients yet, can you rent your own space on Tuesdays?

      I know you like doing fun stuff with your husband on Mon, but if you actually start getting clients, you won’t have time for that anyway. So you might as well earn the money.

  123. Lirael*

    So yesterday, my grandboss (boss’s boss) got laid off very suddenly. We’re all pretty shocked, and it didn’t help that he was pretty much immediately escorted out of the building – he had to ask to go back to his desk to grab his wallet, etc. HR and his boss told us that it was a strategic restructure for cost cutting, and that because of data privacy concerns, we can’t allow people to work out the typical two weeks. I’m really unhappy about the way it went down – we can’t even let people say goodbye anymore? – and rumors are pointing to his boss decided she wanted him gone but didn’t have a reason to fire him. I don’t know that I have a question really, I’m just feeling unsettled and sad and wanted to vent a little.

    1. Scully*

      This is fairly common in some industries where sensitive information could be taken to a competitor, however since you and your colleagues were shocked it appears that may not be the case in your field. I wouldn’t pay much attention to the rumor mill, but feeling upset is normal. Have you considered reaching out to your grandboss directly?

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      This is pretty normal with layoffs, but yes, it can be shocking. When my sister was laid off, she got an hour to clean out her desk and then she was escorted out.

  124. Blueberry Girl*

    I’m facing a problem and my new job and I have no idea how to address it. So here goes- My direct report, Linda, spends about 20% of her time dealing with customers of the Teapot Office. We fill out order paperwork, find the items wanted, and then send them over to the Teapot Creation Office for processing. The Teapot Creation Office charges for this service and never waives their fees. Any money received does not come back to my budget, but goes directly to them. We are often asked to waive the fees, which we don’t have any authority to do. Personally, I want us to no longer be part of this process. It’s not as though we’re gaining any benefit and it’s eating up a lot of Linda’s time. However, this is how things have “always been done” and I know I’ll get a bunch of push back. The Teapot Office does not report to anyone in my department, they are sort of a “law unto themselves”. How would you suggest I approach this?

    1. JustaTech*

      Wait, part of your own organization is charging *you* for work for customers, but you don’t get any of the money from the customers? That seems like something is getting misunderstood at some point. I don’t think that’s how budgets are supposed to work.

      As for waiving fees, since it’s clearly not their policy to ever waive a fee, then you can reasonably respond with “it is not company policy to waive fees”, especially since you couldn’t do it if you wanted to.

      Would the higher-ups be more responsive to you asking to push back on this if you could show how much it is costing your department (in fees and Linda’s time) and that you’re not getting any value back from that?

      1. valentine*

        The customers are asking Linda to waive the fee, which she can’t, and the fee and other sale proceeds go to the Teapot Creation Office instead of to Blueberry Girl’s department.

        I would ask my supervisor why we are spending 20% of Linda’s pay plus whatever’s lost on stuff she could be working on or the pay of other people who are doing that stuff and, if they really want to keep this going, suggest the fee go to your budget.

  125. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    I’ve been saving this all week to share with the AAM commentariat.

    In the Christmas white elephant exchange, I obtained the WORST “Life Hacks” calendar EVER. (Seriously, the advice is terrible.) This was Monday’s:

    “Post fake job ads on Craigslist for positions you are interested in. Review all the resumes that get submitted and make yours stand out!”

    WHAT.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t ever do this. It costs money to post job ads on craigslist. Is this calendar from 2005?!

      But also it’s awful but really it sounds like “These ideas are why places like craigslist started to charge people to post in certain forums.” Next up, “Eat a TidePod, put it on Youtube, get famous and get a million job offers!”

      1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

        It’s incredible. My favorite piece of non-advice (sadly did not survive a desk move) was something like “If you’ve run out of whipped cream, just get some heavy whipping cream and shake it really hard! Voila, instant whipped cream!” THAT IS NOT A LIFE HACK, THAT IS COOKING FROM SCRATCH

        1. fposte*

          That is wonderfully bizarre on so many fronts. The “If you’ve run out of whipped cream, whip some cream” advice; the notion that you’re solving this problem by going to the supermarket, but apparently not buying the product there you actually want; the notion that whipped cream is a staple that you’d expect to have a running supply of in the first place.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            the notion that whipped cream is a staple that you’d expect to have a running supply of in the first place

            In my house, this time of year, it actually is, because the gents I live with would happily live off pumpkin pie between Halloween and New Year’s and they slather it with whipped cream like nobody’s business. :) (It’s remarkably entertaining. I have to make them each their own separate pies when I bake, else someone pouts that he’s not getting enough pie. Luckily I enjoy baking pies and laughing at them about it.)

          2. Seven If You Count Bad John*

            I do actually know people who might have multiple types of milk/cream in their fridge and might actually run out of whipping cream and need to whip some from scratch, but those people are foodie cook types who also have multiple kinds of vinegar and a special faucet just for filling large pots.

            (OK TBF I also have multiple types of vinegar. White for cleaning/degreasing, cider for cooking, balsamic for salads and stuff)

            1. fposte*

              But that’s me, and I wouldn’t have the pre-whipped cream in the first place. So the advice then would basically mean “If you run out of a thing, buy more!”

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          … and also, if you have to “go get some heavy whipping cream,” why wouldn’t you just buy the pre-whipped cream while you were out, if that was a thing that you wanted, since a tub of cool whip is like, half the price of a quart of whipping cream?

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Just shake the box of cream?

          First of all, it’s often not sweetened. So good luck with that tasting like what you want it to!

          Second, you have to whip it for much longer than you want to shake the box to add air. I’m dying.

          This person must have worked at Starbucks and has a canister to create whipped cream in, since they have the gas cartridges in them to charge it.

          If you just shook cream, can you imagine being that jerk at a grocery store going through the creams and shaking them?

          1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

            I personally like the flavor of homemade whipped cream (unsweetened) but yeah, you’d need to use a blender or mixer, otherwise it will take ages.

            It’s possible that the original advice was more like a recipe (like “put 1/2 cup of heavy cream into a margarita shaker”) but since I’ve lost that paper I can’t swear to it. (That would actually make it worse, because it also assumes you have a shaker but not a blender or whisk)

            1. fposte*

              This sounds like one of those annoying shortcut suggestions that a) the writer has never actually tried and b) is longer than the regular way. “If you run out of oatmeal, just scatter some oats on a sink sponge, wait, then harvest and press the grain!”

              1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

                “Run out of precooked hard-boiled eggs? Here’s a tip: Get a raw egg and boil it for 10 minutes! Presto, boiled egg!”

            2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Fair enough!

              My dad has a wicked sweet tooth and so his whipped cream tastes like a sugar factory exploded, lol. So I’m damaged goods in that department.

              He would take this extra sweet whipped cream and toss it with a can of Del Monte fruit cocktail. So again…he’s a bad man and by the grace of God, not the diabetic in our family.

        4. CAA*

          The truly sad thing about this is that if you google “shaken whipped cream” you will get over 2.9M results, many of which are “recipes” for this wonder. I have a feeling some people would be truly boggled to find out the recipe for butter.

    2. littlelizard*

      Ethics aside (ugh)….that’s so much effort. Like, even at my most desperate (which is a common state for me), I am not willing to deal with that.

      1. fposte*

        That was my thought–this is taking the stressful and time-consuming task of job-searching and adding a humongous chore to it.

      2. Antilles*

        It also seems completely and totally ineffective.
        Because at the end of the day, the person reading all those resumes is…you. So all those resumes you’re looking at are going to get mentally filtered through your unconscious perceptions, mental assumptions of what a resume ‘should’ look like, etc. You’re not getting an independent view from a hiring manager, you’re just reinforcing whatever your natural inclinations were in the first place!

      1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

        No! this is a completely sincere Life Hacks calendar with just awful awful advice!
        Here’s another work-related one: “If you want to sound sick, make the call lying on your back while hanging your head over the side of the bed. You will sound congested!” (A young coworker told me he tested this and it actually works.)

        1. Antilles*

          The real Lifehack here is to work for a company where they don’t judge whether you’re “sick enough” based on your voice.

          1. Kat in VA*

            *pshht*

            I remember trying to muster up the “sickest” voice I could at my last job (which was back in the 90s before I started up again last year).

            I most definitely worked for one of those places that judged you if you didn’t sound “sick enough” to be staying home.

            After a while, I got smart and switched from “Uugugug I habe a horrbible heab colb” to “I am in severe gastrointestinal distress” which received far less judgment and attitude.

            The fact I had to do this at all is still mildly infuriating.

            1. Kat in VA*

              Forgot to add – the last two times I stayed home sick from work, I texted BossMan and emailed everyone else. I never even spoke to anyone on the phone. Yay for workplaces that treat you like a freakin’ adult.

    4. JustaTech*

      At this point I think that all those “hacks” are deliberately terrible. Like, I don’t know if it’s an advanced form of trolling or bizarre performance art, but they’re just so bad.

      Heck, YouTube has almost as many videos de-bunking various life-hacks and similar stuff as it does videos claiming to show the “hacks”. (Some of them are frankly dangerous. I heard of a case in China where two girls were terribly burned when they incorrectly followed a popcorn popping video and their cooker exploded.)

    5. Gumby*

      Heh, isn’t a little early for them to have made a calendar from the xkcd dude’s newest book? (How To: absurd scientific advice for common real-world problems). Except this sounds not at all scientific. Also not nearly as hilarious as Randall.

  126. AnotherLibrarian*

    Tips and tricks to dealing with colleagues who are… difficult. I have a colleague who is really aggressive about protecting a project that is both poor quality and costing us a lot of money our library doesn’t have. Anytime anyone suggests scrapping it, she responds with a level of frustration and anger that is palpable. She never yells, but it gets darn close. I know this isn’t my circus or my monkeys, but I am struggling intensely to let it go. I’m literally biting my tongue every time she goes off on a rant about how we need to hire someone to just “fix her project.” I’m new. It’s not my problem. I know it’s not my problem. How can I learn to just stay in my lane and not let this bother me so much?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      So, it sounds like you need some sort of coping mechanism? Is there any way to quietly step away from the conversation as the rant starts up? If it’s a casual group setting, step away and go work on something.

      If it’s a meeting and you can’t escape, can you pretend like the rant sounds like the teacher in Peanuts? I’m only partly joking…

  127. Running With Scissors*

    Hi All,

    I don’t post here often, but I thought I could use your thoughts on something at work.

    I’ve been at my job for 6 months now. I left my previous job because it was too easy for me and I wanted something more challenging. In addition to that, for the past 2-1/2 months, I have been seeing a psychotherapist to deal with some personal issues.

    For the first 5 months, whenever I would have my monthly 1:1 with my boss, I received a lot of positive feedback. Today, out of the blue, was very different. I’m not sure if she is having a bad day, or if it’s something else. I was told there’s tension between me and other team members. This came as a shock because I make an effort to take to everyone and be friendly with them throughout the day. There are times when I am busy and focused on my work, but that’s true for all of the team members. When I approached the other team members they had no idea where my boss’ comment came from.

    Thinking about it, I realized I should have asked for more specifics. And my boss is in an office that is away from where we all sit, so she doesn’t see everything.

    Do any of you have any thoughts/ideas to share?

    2. The Meow*

      If your boss’s feedback is accurate, asking your peers about it might not be useful since they may not feel comfortable directly telling you, “Yes you are difficult to work with.” And in my experience…a lot of people who do cause friction within the team actually have no idea what problems they are causing.

      Or your boss could be mistaken, and maybe your team members really don’t have any issues with you. Even if that’s the case it’s worth finding out more about why your boss thinks so, so you can clarify any misunderstandings.

      I would arrange a second meeting with your boss and specifically mention it is to follow up on her previous feedback about the tension between you and other team members. I would phrase it as: “It’s important for me to have a good relationship with the team, so if there’s something I’m missing out on I would appreciate your feedback and suggestions on where I can improve.”

      It sounds like she, like a lot of other managers unfortunately, doesn’t do so well with giving negative feedback. So this gives her time to think about how to talk to you.

      I encourage you to spend the time listening and taking notes rather than reacting. When someone else raises concerns about a specific incident it’s easy (and normal!) to get defensive rather than considering if there is a bigger, consistent pattern of a problematic behaviour.

    3. Arts Akimbo*

      Sometimes, if a boss is not great, they give this kind of vague feedback when a single teammate has come to them with an issue and boss then generalizes it in order to preserve the anonymity of the teammate with the issue. It’s a terrible way to manage, and only effective in making the employee receiving the feedback paranoid. Definitely go back to your boss and ask for specifics.

  128. Agile Phalanges*

    I mostly do hiring for manufacturing positions, and we take walk-ins off the street and have them fill out a paper application. But my colleague here in the office just turned in her notice, so now we’re hiring for her position, and the resumes I’m getting are…interesting. Some of my “favorites”:

    Entire resume consists of “executive summary” of three words ending with an ellipsis, one job from 4+ years ago, and a high school diploma

    Used dollar signs as bullet points on the resume. But only on half of it, the rest were regular dots.

    Only experience is manual labor, no office work, let alone the specific skills we’re looking for. Would this person be offended if I reached out to them for our opening on the manufacturing floor?

    Has a table of “skills” toward the end of the resume. Candidate self-rates as “Expert” at the first five, but the final one, “Self-directed independent problem solving” gets a “Competent.” Hm.

    One person printed out their resume and “cover letter” (just a note saying to look at their resume), then took a photo of the printed materials, and submitted the photos as three separate .jpgs.

    One resume spends the entire first page in a narrative about all their skills and management experience, then a bullet list of qualifications takes up most of the second page and includes things like being a good leader, having expertise in sales, and being an innovative professional, but their job experience is all bartending and welding. Bartending is not sales, people (this is a common theme, it seems).

    Entire experience is bartending and serving (see? theme!) and selling an MLM product.

    But my absolute favorite-est “resume” I got from ZipRecruiter, is the person who uploaded their entire W-2 instead of a resume. SSN, income, and all. All four copies (four per page), and the “second” page of the PDF is the back side with the instructions for filing. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! (Yes, I notified the person. No idea whether they’ll see the message and fix the issue.)

    Wow. Never knew it was this entertaining (and depressing) to be hiring.

    1. Pretty Fly for a WiFi*

      You should see the ones I get. Today I got this beauty, copied and pasted here: “Loved my manager unfortunately working for a place with a phsychotic waitress manager and a boss who’s a complete idiot and is easily corrupted or blinded and lazy well.. it was a nightmare really. Had it’s perks of course still. This is true I really can’t make any of this up.”

      I’ve gotten other doozies, but so far this one takes the cake. I work in a similar industry as yours (lots of labor, less office staff). Just look for the diamonds. Also, yes, contact that person who seems to be a good candidate for your manufacturing position. Just explain that they don’t have the qualifications needed for your office position, but their experience would make them an excellent candidate for the other position, and would they like to be considered. Good luck and have fun!

      1. Agile Phalanges*

        Oh wow. That is impressive. So far none that stunning. Though the W-2 is pretty awesome, I think. Thanks for the advice. I hope we get a diamond. I have a whole stack of “No”s, a few “probably not”s, and only two “maybe”s. Zero “definitely interview”s yet.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I could almost forgive the dollar sign person IF it was a PDF. I have seen some weird save-to-PDF things happen on my professional paid software. Who knows what the free versions people have at home do.

      Otherwise, that’s all pure gold. The sad part is these folks are at home complaining to their families that they keep applying [for jobs they are not qualified for] and no one will hire them [because they are not qualified]. It’s Cousin Eddie holding out for a management position.

    3. Catsaber*

      The .jpg one is killing me. Maybe they thought if you had a copy of the original digital document you would somehow…commit fraud? share their info? People can do some weird things when they share information about themselves.

      1. Agile Phalanges*

        We actually do hire felons (a parole/probation officer sends us ones she thinks will work out), but still yikes to put on a resume.

        Latest was someone who dropped off the materials in person (even though all postings clearly say to e-mail them), and they use commas, where you, might, pause if you were, William, Shatner. Ugh.

  129. Sophie Hatter*

    How much PTO is normal? I am seasonal, get 8 days total for working 10 months out of the year. No diffrentiation between sick time and PTO. Recently the company closed offices/let us all go home when there was a building issue (bathrooms out of order) but said they wouldn’t always do this in the future, and for snow days we could decide not to come in if we felt unsafe, but we’d have to take PTO. I feel like they should be giving us more PTO if they want us to do that, but I really don’t know what is a standard amount. Does it just depend on your employer?

    1. Lily Rowan*

      That is pretty low. Standard low is 10 days vacation for the year (FTE) PLUS some amount of sick time, in my experience.

      And you can’t stay and work if there is no bathroom — that is outrageous.

    2. Pretty Fly for a WiFi*

      Unfortunately, it really does depend on the employer. I had an employer that gave us 14 days PTO total every year. Period. Where I’m working now we get 10 days of vacation and 5 days sick time until our fifth year, when vacation increases. It’s a benefit that employers give to attract talent, not because they have to. Using PTO for a snow day is typical when the workforce is hourly (exempt employees have different rules). I’m sorry that your employer is so stingy with PTO…

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since you’re seasonal and only working 10 months, 8 days is pretty standard for a first year…but is this like something that never increases?!

      My industry only because it’s all I know naturally. For FTE, it starts around 1 to 2 weeks PTO and 1 week sick leave for a first year. Then it usually moves up to 3-4 weeks of PTO as you stay with the company.

      The next question is roll over? Can you roll it over to the next year or is it use it or lose it?

      It will always depend on your employer in the US because there’s no laws requiring you to have PTO. Some of us have mandatory sick leave laws though. We have to accumulate 1 hour for every 40 hours worked for sick leave for non-exempt employees. The cap and roll over depends on the size of the business. But unless it’s something that’s law, there are no actual rules for company’s to go by for time off in most areas.

      1. Sophie Hatter*

        I… don’t actually know! This is their 1st year having this position be salaried and not hourly (aka offering PTO) so I don’t think there is precedent, but I’m sure it’s in our contract somewhere

    4. CheeryO*

      That’s low, especially without a separate sick bucket, but not absurd. It’s definitely standard to have to use PTO if you decide not to come in when the weather is bad but the office is open, unfortunately. The bathroom issue is different since it’s an OSHA violation to not have working bathrooms available.

    5. Antilles*

      It definitely depends on the employer, but your allotment is roughly equivalent to 10 days of PTO for a full time, year-round employee. This is definitely on the stingy side – especially with the PTO functioning as both vacation and sick leave, you’re very much on the lower end of the provided-PTO spectrum.
      Also, just for the record: Workplaces are legally required under OSHA to have functioning restrooms; they aren’t “letting you” go home, they pretty much had no choice but to close the office.

      1. Sophie Hatter*

        Yeah. They didn’t tell us to go home until about 2.5 hours into the workday. We were pretty mad. This is an employer who is usually reasonable.

  130. littlelizard*

    Some especially hard-hitting rejections this week (things that sounded really good and really compatible with where I want to be going). Trying to use it to gain more searching energy but it’s hard :/

  131. Phryne*

    Two roles opened up in the same department at another company: manager and senior specialist.

    Currently, I’m in a senior role and am the team lead (responsible for managing the team in day-to-day operations, but no one reports to me.)

    From the job postings, I may be overqualified for the senior specialist role and underqualified for the manager role. Should I apply for the senior role? Manager role? Both?!

    Trying to keep this question brief, so let me know if more info is needed.

      1. Phryne*

        This is a good question. I would like to move to a management role, but my ideal scenario would be to become manager of a team that I already have a rapport with. To be a first-time manager of a team that I don’t know AND at a company I don’t know is intimidating to me.

    2. JustMyImagination*

      If you want the manager role can you stress things like managing workload for X people, training and development you provide and things along that nature on your resume.

  132. Eggs- Like From Her Ovaries*

    Brief update on the coworker-egg donor situation. The recipient of the donated eggs is pregnant with twins, but no word yet on the the status of the donor. This news brought new waves of office talk- including the recipient asking the donor to be the godmother- and I haven’t seen the donor in the office since the news of the recipient was shared.

    1. Marzipan*

      I missed out on this the first time around so just went back through the archives – wow. That… would not be an arrangement I would recommend without lots of counselling. But that’s lovely news for your coworker, and I hope all is well for both parties.

  133. Jamie*

    You know who hates workplace bullies besides their victims?

    The managers who have to make them knock this crap off.

    Upside – at least it was reported and confirmed so people are starting to trust me. Downside – teaching a grownup that work isn’t the place to meet their power tripping needs.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      But can you fire them if they don’t shape up? My favorite thing is firing work place bullies =X Yeah, I’m awful, I think we all know that by now! [I also enjoyed deep down in my evil heart firing the sexist guy too, I’m not worried about anyone’s financial stability when they’re acting like little hateful monsters to others.]

      1. Jamie*

        I cannot. This isn’t even my circus…they don’t report to me. But as I was the one informed about it I was given the super special privilege of dealing with it.

        I am going to put some things in place to make sure the behavior stops and restructure some things so they’re no longer in charge of the process they were using as a cudgel. I’m a stop gap and can restructure things to protect the targets of their control issues but the overarching problem will have to be handled by someone above my paygrade.

        I’ll manage systems and processes all day but people are just a nightmare.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Gross. Why would they saddle you with it if you can’t actually do anything except the coaching of “Don’t be a dick, Tommy. Yeah, I said it. Don’t be a dick.”

          People can complain to anyone and it goes up the chain to HR, who works with the department management to deal with it. This is backwards and I hate that this randomly falls at your feet because “well they trusted you, you deal with it.” WUT, never.

          This guy will never change when he’s not held to real consequences and they just let whoever gets the complaint juggle the crew around to separate the bully from the victim or what have you. Bullies will find ANOTHER victim wherever they land!

          1. Arts Akimbo*

            “Don’t be a dick, Tommy. Yeah, I said it. Don’t be a dick.”

            More people should receive this feedback.

          2. Kat in VA*

            Sort of like being a ref in a hockey game who can holler all damn day but can’t put you in the penalty box or throw you out of the game.

            I SAID YOU CAN’T HIT HIM IN THE FACE WITH YOUR STICK, OVECHKIN, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS??? NOW GET BACK WITH YOUR LINE AND STOP HITTING THE GOALIE!

      2. Wishing You Well*

        I like your style, The Man, Becky Lynch. You remind me of an old sitcom statement: “I have to get to work early. They’re firing someone today and if I’m not there on time, someone else gets to do it!”
        Rock on!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I only like firing awful people though. Which I think most people who are familiar with me should know but just putting that out there ;)

          I have a high tolerance for shenanigans but when you’re a dick, I see it as a challenge of how quickly you can be squashed like a bug.

    2. Myrin*

      Some managers hate workplace bullies so much that they ignore the issue even with at least two people a week complaining about it to them. FUN!!

      (I have a feeling that I could be able to tip the scales because of my position but I need some time working on my approach first. It’s a huge, very unnecessary pain.)

  134. Dreamer*

    So I’m an employee with DACA status, meaning I have a work permit that expires every 2 years. I’ve been renewing it religiously every 2 years.

    My current work permit expires in a year and our lone HR person has asked me before multiple times if I’m “confident” that I can renew my work permit, since other employees in our small office also rely on work permits (but they are of different legal staus than me). Everytime I got asked, I tried to steer the conversation somewhere else because I feel very uncomfortable with the topic.

    But now I worry about the future and am hoping to save up as much money, if DACA is struck down and I can’t renew my worker permit. But can I ask the HR person to stop bugging me about the work permit? I’ll quit my job two weeks before my permit expires and if I can’t renew it. But for now, I want to keep working and try to live a normal life. Any tips on a script for HR person if they ask me again?

    1. Pretty Fly for a WiFi*

      That is so messed up. I work with a lot of people who have only their permits. I contact them about 2 months before they expire. Most of the time, they don’t even get the permit in time and have to give me a paper that explains the hold-up – usually the receipt for their application and the notice from USCIS saying that employees from such and such country have gotten an automatic extension on their permits. The HR lady should read the rules governing the I-9. You should read them too. If your permit expires tomorrow, I can still hire you today and wait until you submit your new permit. Them’s the rules… no employer is allowed to make employment decisions based on the expiration date of the ID you used for I-9 purposes. Ditto if you’re already hired and working for the employer. So asking about it is completely out of line. I would simply remind her of this rule in a nice, assertive way – but you should read the instructions attached to the I-9 yourself, so you can quote them back to her. Good luck and I hope the DACA thing is resolved and we get to keep all of you safe and sound in this country!!

      1. Dreamer*

        Thank you! I did have a feeling that the constant asking was bordering on being inappropriate, glad to know that I was right and CAN gently pushback!

    2. fposte*

      Oh, yuck, I’m so sorry you’re in that situation. I’m guessing that the HR person doesn’t know about your DACA status (because if she does, 1) super obnoxious and 2) you can tell her to ask the government and not you)? If so, I think it’s going to be hard to fend her off without getting into things you don’t want to. You can *ask*–you can say “Could you hold off on asking this question for a bit? I absolutely will tell you when I know”–but if it’s on her schedule to check with the permittees once a month or whatever, that’s probably going to keep happening.

      Fingers crossed for your renewal and a resilient DACA.

    3. Parenthetically*

      Your HR person is an idiot and is well on his way to violating the law. Your DACA status doesn’t change the fact that you have an I-9 and thus are protected from employment discrimination.

      As to how you say professionally, “Yeah, so, Pat, federal freaking law clearly states that you can’t subject I-9 holders to a higher level of scrutiny than other workers, require additional documentation, or put them through additional inquiries. An unexpired I-9 permits me to work, and continuing to hound me about it can constitute discrimination of the exact type prohibited by federal law.”…? Ugh. Maybe, “Hey, Pat, I want to make sure that everything is clear regarding my EAP. As long as I have an unexpired I-9 on file I’m authorized to work — so everything is good from your end. It’s all that’s needed to ensure the company is compliant with immigration laws, regardless of any other status — and in fact, we aren’t allowed to require additional documentation or inquiries from employees! From my end, I’ll of course keep up with my renewals and get all the paperwork to HR as soon as I receive it from USCIS. Knowing that you’re in compliance as long as my I-9 is valid and while it’s being processed, just like every other 1-9, can we agree to leave it there?” I’d be tempted to throw something in there about HR consulting with an immigration lawyer to make sure they’re not violating any anti-discrimination laws, but I wouldn’t want it to sound like a threat! But I frankly do not trust your HR person to thread that needle well.

      I’m wishing you all the best too, Dreamer.

      1. fposte*

        The I-9 is just the employment verification that we all have; the permit would be the Employee Authorization Document. But what I don’t know is if there’s a reason HR would know that permit is under DACA or not; you can get EADs different ways, so it may be that HR doesn’t know the OP’s under DACA.

        1. Dreamer*

          I haven’t told anyone of my DACA status but I’m not sure if my work permit being a specific class and my SSN being different (it has a blurb about work authorization that isn’t found with citizen’s SSN cards) might have tipped them off? This HR person was formally a freaking HR director at a huge institution so I have no idea why she is asking me…

          But thanks to everyone for the responses! I’m so glad talking about DACA hasn’t caused any hateful comments.

        2. Parenthetically*

          Right, sorry not to be clear (I’m in a haze of fury about this whole topic), what I’m saying is that her DACA status doesn’t change the validity of her employment authorization, so even if HR does know about her DACA status, they aren’t legally allowed to subject her (or any other EAD holder) to additional scrutiny/documentation/pestering regardless of any other component of her status. She’s legally allowed to work because she has a valid EAD and in-date I-9 on file, thus she’s protected by federal law against employment discrimination based on her immigration status.

          Oh actually, on re-read, I wonder if you and I are reading the OP differently — I read it as HR does know about Dreamer’s DACA status and is specifically hassling HER about it, but now I wonder if HR is hassling all the immigrant EAD holders? Is that how you took it? Because… I am not a llama, but specifically hassling immigrant workers and extracting reassurances from them about their paperwork beyond what’s legally required seems pretty definitely discriminatory.

          1. fposte*

            I wasn’t clear if HR knew or not (sounds like the OP isn’t sure either). That’s a good point, though, that if HR is hassling everybody on a permit that’s a problem in its own right.

      2. Amy Sly*

        I agree the HR lady needs pushback, but consider that she may be working from benevolent motives.

        At my industrial job, we have a lot of our management on work permits. This past quarter, two of them didn’t get their renewals processed in time and had to take unplanned multi-week “vacations” which really threw off our schedules. (Fun fact: if you’re deported for lack of work visa, your company can get in trouble if you continue to work remotely. The one bloody time I could guarantee that these guys had nothing better to do than answer my emails, they weren’t allowed to! Gah!!) If your HR person has had to scramble for a similar situation, she may be overcorrecting with the reminders. And maybe she’s just worried about you in the current political climate. That may feel patronizing, but it’s not malicious.

        I’d add a line to your pushback script about “I am aware of the deadlines and potential for delays. I’ll let you know if anything comes up.”

  135. Marianne Dashwood*

    Can anyone connect me with genetic counselors who didn’t get their MSGC immediately after college? I graduated almost 10 years ago and am debating if I want to do years of prereqs in order to apply to a program. Thank you!

    1. Fikly*

      Not directly, but I might reach out to Sarah Lawrence – I know that their student body is split roughly 50/50 between students right out of college and students significantly out of college, and they are usually great about connecting prospective students to current or graduated students.

      I’m in a similar position to you (also debating whether my brain can get through the prereqs) and I’ve been to several of Sarah Lawrence’s Open Houses and such because I live locally and they’re super friendly.

  136. Tea Fish*

    I’m looking to transition out of an admin role and learn to program– and hopefully find a job in that line of work. Over the last year or so, I’ve saved up enough of a cushion to take some time off of work (~about a year) and my plan for 2020 is to quit my job, really focus on leaning to code, probably sign up for a coding boot camp, and hopefully find another job. I know a lot of people are self taught programmers and find a lot of success… and I suspect a lot of people have uhh, unrealistic ideas along the lines of ‘oh, i’ll just learn coding and then make 100k a year!!’ so I’d really love some input from people who work in the industry and entered through both through ‘traditional’ and ‘nontraditional’ paths.

    Specific Questions:
    – Am I being overly optimistic in my time line?
    – Any advice, tips, tricks, resources you’d recommend for self-taught coding
    – Any advice, warnings, encouragement, information about coding boot camps
    – REALITY CHECKS, pointing out risks I might not be aware of

    NOTE: I’m still in the very early beginning stages of learning to code, so… I know I’m taking a real risk here on an industry/job that I’m not going to be suited for. I have enough cash reserves to float me more than a year, and I’m also planning on growing my (already established) small business next year, so I don’t have ALL my eggs in one basket. While continuing to work full time as I learn is….. probably the safest and most prudent way to go about doing this, I’m specifically choosing not to because I’m stressed and stretched too thin between my job and my side business. It’s also psychological– I have a very cautious, slow-to-warm-to-change personality, and I want to give myself the psychological kick in the butt and leap into the deep end instead of thinking about this for years and never taking action.

    1. Someone*

      Hey there, I did admin work and quit to be a full time freelance writer.

      Before I went full-time freelance, I had savings to pay all my expenses for several months and also I had a regular client that paid about half my living expenses. It took me about 6 months to get enough clients to make a comfortable income and not have to dig into my savings.

      My advice would be to ruthlessly cut your expenses right now – cancel Netflix and all streaming services, learn to cook rice and beans, etc. Have contingency plans so you don’t end up homeless.

      Others will probably have advice for you on the dev side of things – what they look for when hiring junior devs.

      But yeah, go for it! If you work hard, you can do it.

      1. Tea Fish*

        Thank you!! It’s good to hear from someone who also took that leap off the full time wagon and landed on both feet. :) I’ve been working hard to reduce my living expenses and stick to a strict budget the last few years, so I feel (KNOCK ON WOOD) confident in my ability to stick it out and find another admin related job if this doesn’t pan out. I am hoping that I won’t have to dip too heavily into my savings though… ugh. I worked so hard to build them up!

      1. Tea Fish*

        I’m starting with Python, then Javascript. Some feedback I got from friends who are programmers was that it’s not so much what language you learn first but more than you learn A Language, and then expand your knowledge base from there. Hoping to learn C++, Ruby, maybe Swift?? down the line, but I think that may be getting ahead of myself at this stage.

        1. Catsaber*

          What type of work are you wanting to get into? Python can be useful for a lot of things, so it’s a good one to start with, but then what you learn next will vary quite a bit depending on the field you are interested in.

          1. Tea Fish*

            Is it a cop-out to say that I don’t know/am not really picky at this stage? I think that I will have more firm opinions when I’m further along in my learning, but right now I’m open to doing and learning anything– my ultimate goal is to land a moderately well paying tech job at a stable and non-dysfunctional (and hopefully large!) company, and I don’t have aspirations to work my way into super high powered roles at Big Brand Names. If there’s a language that’s favored by say, ye olde standarde financial companies/banks or healthcare institutions, I’d love to know!

            For my own personal interests, I am interested in app dev (specifically for iOS) and in making videogames, so any recommendations on that front would be great too.

            1. Catsaber*

              I think it would be wise to start thinking about the role you want now. A year can fly by. While I don’t think learning any language is a waste of time, it would just be a better use of your time and energy to focus on a few of the languages/skills that are specific to a particular type of programming/development. For example – in data warehousing (my field), you absolutely need SQL, python is becoming more and more useful, and then just a working knowledge of other languages is helpful for various tasks (like automating processes with a shell script). But employers also want to know I am familiar with ETL software (like Informatica/ODI), Power BI, Tableau, etc. It’s not just enough to learn the programming language in many fields – you need experience or an understanding of the tools used as well, because so many companies are using cloud-based tools or things with delivered code, so it’s not just straight up programming.

              However! If you’re looking at something like actual software development, then that’s more actual programming. But you would still likely need to be familiar with various tools. Also get really familiar with the software development lifecycle – how to test, debug, etc.

              I don’t think there’s really any one language that’s favored by a particular industry, like healthcare or financial, but it’s more like, there’s a language that’s favored by your role. Both healthcare and financial deal with data, so you need SQL. Both have websites, so you’d need HTML/CSS/Javascript/whatever is used for webz these days.

              1. Tea Fish*

                Oh okay, that’s very helpful thank you! When it comes to jobs and career paths in tech, I have a strong sense of… ‘I don’t know what I don’t know.’ It’s hard to narrow down what’s out there through google alone– do you happen to know any resources where I can do more research and digging into what kind of roles are out there? If you don’t mind me asking what made you decide to go into your field, and what do you like/dislike about data warehousing?

                1. Catsaber*

                  I would start by looking at the job boards for companies you’d like to work for, and seeing what positions are available. Look at the tasks that are described, and see if any of those tasks interest you. Google those specific positions to get a sense of the overall skill set needed, and the role they serve in an organization.

                  I’d also check out any free conferences or job fairs in your area. AWS and Microsoft do some free events. Talk to people in IT and ask about what their typical day looks like. Try to focus more on the tasks and not so much the language or the skills. The language and the tools are going to change constantly….so it’s good to get a sense of the actual tasks that you’d like to go, or the role that you want to fulfill. Talk to people in different industries if you can – IT in higher education is way different than IT at a big private company,and also IT at a software developer.

                  Re: how I got into my field. I have an English degree and I started out in graphic design. I got a job at a college doing support for online education programs. I realized I liked the more IT-focused tasks more than graphic design and creating online content, so I moved to another university in an application support role for online programs. It was then necessary to do some querying of a database we had to get stats on online students, and I picked that up, and loved it. My next job was as a business intelligence analyst, where I was writing a lot of SQL and doing reporting. Our database at the time was a mismanaged piece of shit, so I started taking on database admin tasks, and I loved that! So I moved into a more back-end database mgmt team, and I’m currently supporting a data warehouse implementation.

                  So I picked up all my coding skills on the job, but I think my soft skills and experience made me stand out as a candidate because I communicate well with various people, I can lead projects, etc. So I moved into my roles by leveraging my soft skills and adaptability, which is a good strategy when changing career directions.

                2. Catsaber*

                  Re: what I like/dislike about my field. I like automation, I like improving workflows and processes, I like doing IT infrastructure work and maintaining an optimal environment, I like coming up with solutions to complex problems. I like that I work on a lot of different things and have freedom to experiment with new techniques, programs, languages, etc. instead of just being given a set of instructions to follow that have been developed by another person, day after day (which is what some analysts do).

                  I dislike having to code around bad data (hate hate HATE), which is usually the result of unclear business processes and poorly defined requirements. I wanted to get more into the back-end of what I do because I don’t really care what people are doing with their data (as long as it’s secure!), but it was driving me crazy to deliver a report and then the customer goes, “That data doesn’t seem right…..” which is usually just their “feeling” that it should be different because they want it to be, not because of any real problem.

                3. Tea Fish*

                  I’m late coming back to this, but THANK YOU SO MUCH Catsaber for taking the time to write all this out– you’ve given me so much to think about a lot of insight into… options, resources, how and where I can seek out more information, and a peek into your own situation. I really, really appreciate it!!

    3. Kiwiii*

      I was an admin at a social services agency and 3 months ago i moved to an analyst/ops role at a social-services adjacent nonprofit. they’ve been really chill about teaching me xml and a coworker in my role recently moved over to the programming team, I know they’ve trained people even in my role in SQL and heavier coding things (that I’m … very not ready for yet), and they’ve been vocal about liking and appreciating my knowledge-base I brought from working at the social services agency. Your plan sounds equal parts exciting and terrifying, and I wish you tons and tons of luck, but first I’m going to suggest looking around and seeing if there are any employers around that might lend you a boat, so it’s not so sink or swim.

      1. Catsaber*

        Colleges can also be a good place to check out for jobs that are willing to hire people with good soft skills that are still in training for some hard skills. I would leverage the soft skills you already have to get some kind of junior to mid programming role and then you can get more experience there.

      2. Tea Fish*

        Ooh, I really hadn’t thought of that at all, so thank you for the suggestion. Can I ask more about your role, how it relates to your prior admin experience, and what you do in the day-to-day? To be quite honest, I hear the word ‘analyst’ thrown around about jobs all day and night, but I have…. not a clue what that really means– it’s not a role in the industry that I work in.

        1. Kiwiii*

          Sure! The main things that carried over was the jargon I learned and my customer service skills — so, transferable things from my previous admin role: I took (and sometimes mediated) social services complaints, pulled reports, data, and took meeting notes for our coordinators (and in the process learned terms and expected values and things) and handled some statistics things for our bureau that I’d give to the director to communicate at larger operations meetings.

          My current company creates something very similar to the reports and data that I would pull previously, so I was already familiar with what they should look like when they’re correct and I was already familiar with the different ways clients were required to document contacts or complete logs of services rendered, so there was hardly any learning curve there. Day-to-day, I do some helpdesk work — assisting people who get locked out of the their account to the program that holds the reports, but I also act as a liaison to the high level clients (usually direct level or higher social services people) to discuss why compliance looks the way it does, if the reports are catching the correct populations, and/or how feasible any new reports they might want are. When we decide on a new report, I communicate with our programming team who then get data from their people and convert it into tables, which they then (something code-y that I don’t understand) and then it comes to me, and I write an xml front end page to display the information on our website. I sometimes query SQL to figure out why a report is missing information or looks strange, and I’ll eventually start learning more about the backend of things as needed, but i’ve already picked up some of the jargon there as well, just from troubleshooting meetings and discussions. I imagine it’ll be a really good way to slowly get familiar with programming things, as evidenced by one of my coworkers moving to the programming team after about 2 years in this role.

          1. Tea Fish*

            :0! Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this up… your role and the path you took toward it sounds a lot like what I’d love to do in an ideal world… and I hadn’t even realized that there were options that would bridge that admin-tech-y role. This gives me a lot of think about (and other options to explore if what I’m doing right now doesn’t work out).

    4. Anon wannabe*

      Just one data point. I had talked to a rep from a local university’s “boot camp” program, which I believe was ~36 weeks. This is a state flagship school and <1 hr outside the major metro area I'm in, so I had a comfort level that they 1.) had a program that would graduate people who were technically competent completion, and 2.) knew the job market and were tailored to it. The person told me the starting salary would be around $60k for me, and that I would be on the higher end of the range because of the rest of my background and experience. This metro area is in the 2-3MM people range, and is not really an up-and-coming tech city.

  137. moql*

    My grandboss (G) is circumventing my boss (B) in a way that makes me really uncomfortable. B is a supervisor, but was never officially given a management title. Our old director let B operate pretty autonomously, and B grew the department from just him to 5 other people, plus 5 summer interns. New director G is much more hands on. He’s been meeting with all of us individually which is great. He’s been able to get us funding and traction on projects that have been in the proposal stage for years.

    Unfortunately, he’s also been circumventing B to work with me on these things. If the reporting structure were officially changed this would be fine, but as it is G’s just been leaving B off emails, and not inviting him to meetings. B used to do my performance evals, now G is doing them. We recently hired someone new in our department, and where previously B would have made the final decision here he was barely consulted! I really like both B and G, and would like them to get together and work well together. Instead G is freezing B out is a way that feels like a demotion. I hate this!

    I don’t think there is really anything I can do; I mostly wanted to vent. I’ve been debriefing B after meetings so he knows what I’m working on, and cc’ing him on emails when I send reports to other departments. It just puts me in such an awkward situation!

    1. Kiwiii*

      Maybe you can have a conversation with B about it about how you’re perceiving it? Maybe B and G are more on the same page than you’re seeing.

  138. Candid Candidate*

    I got laid off yesterday in a company-wide layoff. I’m pretty devastated and so is my team. This was not expected at all.

    My company is going to give me two full months’ pay plus a severance package. The question I have is about some language in my separation packet about filing for unemployment. It says that I can apply for unemployment as soon as I’m ready and they can’t determine if I’m eligible, which I understand legally. The weird part is the note directly below it: “Note, if your unemployment claim is approved, your benefits may be reduced by the amount of wage replacement included in your separation package.”

    I’m assuming this refers to the severance sum that they’re giving me, that they can reduce it by the amount of unemployment wages I receive if I file. Is that legal?

    1. Jamie*

      In my state unemployment doesn’t kick in until the time of your severance is passed.

      I.e. if I got 6 weeks severance then UI can approve me before that’s up but they don’t start paying until week 7.

    2. LuckySophia*

      I’m not an expert in this at all, but I read it the opposite way…I think it means, the Unemployment Office may look at the $ you’re getting from the company (your 2 months pay plus your severance $) as “income” — thus the Unemployment Benefit would be lower than if you had “zero income”. Maybe others can comment on whether this is a timing issue….? e.g., Should Candid Candidate wait to file for unemployment until two months (as in “two months wages”) have passed, or some other time period????

    3. Natalie*

      I believe you have it backwards – they are alerting you that your unemployment award may be reduced because you’ve received severance (that’s the “separation package”).

      Exactly how this works varies by state. In my state it just kicks your UI start date forward, but it doesn’t reduce the total UI award you’re eligible for. Your state UI office should have an FAQ or similar that can tell you how this will affect you.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your benefits are your UI benefits, not your severance benefits is how I read it as well!

      I would assume it’s because they’ve seen people approved before their severance ends and therefore the benefits are reduced. You have to report every week about your income and so when it ends and your income drops, your benefits will be adjusted for that. So it’s just a precaution so you know what may happen depending on when the employment department rubber stamps the claim to start paying benefits.

      It’s most likely generic and therefore some people will have smaller packages, then that will usually mean they are eligible for UI benefits sooner than higher paid individuals. It’s all about how much it brings you down below the amount you were bringing in weekly in the end!

      1. Candid Candidate*

        Ah okay, that makes so much more sense. Thanks for everyone who helped me decipher this. The brain fog of being laid off unexpectedly is real.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Be kind to yourself. It’s a hard thing to deal with and the good thing is that you asked about it instead of simply stewing or getting angry with someone. We all totally understand you’re in a place of distress and it’s easy to get tripped up on this kind of material!

    5. All Hail Queen Sally*

      My state starts unemployment benefits right away. Severance is considered a gift and not factored in calculating benefits.

  139. Unemployed in Greenland*

    Does anybody here do contract work, or a second job, in the evenings / night? Ideally remote, but I’m interested in hearing other experiences too.

    I ask because I want to pay off a terrifyingly large amount of debt (consumer + student loan – though luckily the consumer debt is almost all balance transfers with rates of 0-4.99%), and my salary at my (wonderful!) new full-time job isn’t going to stretch to include more than the minimums – again, of this large a debt amount.

    I used to have a whole slew of evening gigs, but I relocated for my job and thus do not have a network yet.

    I’d very much appreciate any advice from anyone who works a remote job in the evenings, whether part time or full time. How did you go about obtaining it? I’d appreciate your experiences in other types of jobs in addition to a FT job / anecdata about paying down large debt, too.

    1. Unemployed in Greenland*

      edited to add: although for the purpose of the open thread, I would appreciate most the advice on second / remote job obtaining/working.

  140. Butterfly Counter*

    This may be an issue similar to when one is given managerial responsibilities, but then also given no power to enforce any changes. I’m eager to know how to proceed.

    I teach at a university. There are a number of student groups here, many attached to departments. Last summer, the chair of my department voluntold me to be the advisor to the student group attached to our department. They had already formed and I was there to be the go-between for these students and the other professors in the department. Sounded okay, and it was for a semester.

    Unfortunately in the spring semester, the student president, exercising her power and telling the club it was her way or the highway, caused the group to implode. Most of this was done outside of my “watch” as in it was over texts between the students and I was never clued in via email until it was already over. At the time, I went to the department of student organizations (who oversee student groups) to ask what I could do. I was told since it’s a student group, I’m there merely to give advice and nothing else. I have no power to do anything other than strongly suggest ways of moving forward. Great.

    This current semester, a new student group has formed. Unfortunately, the new president is following in the old president’s footsteps and we’ve already lost two executive members of the club (co-president and vice president). Apparently, she is volatile when questioned to the point of over-the-top verbal abuse. I can see this student group imploding once again on my watch.

    When I confronted this student about this in the past, she played dumb, pretending she had no idea what had happened to make her co-president quit. Knowing she is so volatile, I’m feeling hesitant to push her more, but also don’t want to subject other students to her volatility and verbal abuse. And again, I have no power to actually make any changes to the club or move it in any direction. I am desperate for advice from anyone who has been in any similar situation.

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      I don’t see why this is an issue you have to solve. You’re their advisor in case they need your help. You’re not in charge of the group and it’s not your problem is the group disbands. Student groups come and go, that’s just the nature of them. I’d say try to become less invested in the success of the group. Students who don’t like the group can leave it, students who do like the group can join it, and if it fails, then it fails. You’re not the manager of this student group. You’re there to help them if they need to liaise with someone official.

      1. Butterfly Counter*

        I think my issue is that this “advising” counts as service to my department. Or at least it has in the past when students in the group willingly gave the advisors more of a role in the direction of the group. Basically, because I’m doing this, I get “let out” of some of the other committee work I’d be expected to do. And now that one club has imploded and the other is on its way, it doesn’t reflect well on me, despite me having no power to change it.

        The club has done awesome things in the past and I’m disappointed I can’t help it do interesting things in the future. I am also worried for the students who may cross this new president and I’d like to stop her abusive behavior if possible.

        In any case, I have already let my department know they will need to find a new club advisor next year.

    2. Blueberry Girl*

      While I agree with ‘no kind of atmosphere’, I have been in similar situations. What I did is reach out to the students and basically say that you’re there if they need/want you to show up to a few group meetings. Not to all of them, of course, but one or two. Maybe at the beginning of the semester to get a sense of how things are shaping up. This is entirely optional. You are not required to get involved, but if you wanted to, this might be one option. I found that if I showed up to the first meeting of the semester, students were more comfortable coming to me later when things got rocky.

      1. Butterfly Counter*

        Thank you. They’re fine talking to me, but I only hear about things after they happen and not before irreparable damage has been done.

        But I think I’ll just limit my time and energy with the club and stick to being the go-between for the club and the faculty if the club manages to survive.

        Thank you all for the advice.

    3. fposte*

      I’m with no kind of atmosphere (and thanks for putting that earworm in my head); this isn’t your problem to solve, and I don’t think I’d even have confronted the student about this. It’s not your job to make sure the student group doesn’t implode or to ensure that it succeeds. This isn’t like having managerial responsibilities; this is more like you’re the letter carrier that delivers to their house. You’re there to convey stuff, not to run anything.

  141. Flmegs*

    Do you have professional boundaries regarding eating lunch with coworkers? I’m a manager in the local county government and our culture is very casual. I was promoted to a manager position about two years ago. When I first started the job I would eat lunch with one of my staff and a group of coworkers from my former group. But then I realized it wasn’t a great idea. If I had a friendship with my staff it would make it harder to provide feedback which I have had to do. I notice there are some other managers that do eat lunch with their staff – off-site. What does everyone think or what is your own rule for navigating lunches out?

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      I will eat lunch with my staff if it is an organized lunch out ie: We are going to lunch, all of us, everyone is paying their own way, and we all go. I won’t do it one on one with people who I supervise, unless it’s a rare exception ie: there’s a work event we both have to go to, so we grab food somewhere before hand.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Don’t eat with your employees every day. The optics are bad and, as you are sensing, problems can arise. Once a week might be okay. Try eating with your peers or your boss once in awhile, if possible.
      Bon Appetit!

  142. ainnnymouse*

    Should I just get rid of my summary on my resume? I find it’s confusing the people who interview me. Right now it says I have no criminal record, I’m a native English speaker, that I don’t have any citizenship problems, that I can work weekends and holidays and that I don’t currently go to school. I took a class where they told us how to write a resume. They told me to put these things in when I didn’t have much job experience.
    “Creative, coming up with new and creative ideas.
    Flexible, available almost anytime.
    Sells and ships miscellaneous items on the internet. “

    1. Olive Hornby*

      Yes, I would remove this. Summaries are considered dated in general, and this kind of information especially should not be included on a resume. In the US, I believe companies can’t discriminate against you based on your citizenship status or whether you are a native English speaker. Many companies have also stopped asking about criminal records. Companies can require that you have authorization to work in the US or that you speak English with a native level of fluency, but this could equally apply to someone who holds a green card and speaks English as a second or third language. It sounds like this class was giving bad advice. Sadly, many of these classes give bad advice, according to what Alison has said.

      The information about your flexibility is useful, especially if you are applying for jobs in customer service or retail, but it doesn’t really belong on your resume. Could you include it in a cover letter or even cover email, if you are applying? (Something like “I was excited to learn about the opportunity at Teapots Inc. and have attached my resume. I have three years of specialty retail experience and am available to work nights and weekends as needed.”)

    2. Catsaber*

      If you are looking for jobs in the US, then remove it! It’s not necessary at all. You can just launch straight into your work history. You also don’t really need to mention any of those things anywhere – be it on the resume, in a cover letter, or even during an interview. Unless it’s specifically for a job that requires weekend/holiday work, then it’s just assumed you will not need to work those times.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agree with removing it, especially if you’re writing about your citizenship status.

      Your availability could be part of your cover letter, if it’s relevant to the position you’re applying to. Please also see AAM’S great advice in cover letters and resumes.

  143. Em from CT*

    How do you figure out what exactly your subordinate does all day so you can hold him accountable?

    I’m a new manager, and I’m struggling with one of my four direct reports. He’s a manager in his own right, and so is allowed a fair amount of autonomy by virtue of his position. But as his manager, as I understand it, I’m ultimately responsible for his work and his results. And that means I need to know what he’s doing, so that I can hold him accountable and be held accountable myself.

    The challenge is, from what I understand of his job duties, I honestly don’t think they’re enough to fill a full work day. I’ve made efforts to get a clear picture of his job duties (set up weekly one-on-ones, requested his official job description, asked him to describe to me in writing how his current job may be different the official version) but it all feels very vague and loosey-goosey. How can I better figure out what he does so that I know a) if he’s doing it and b) if he’s doing it well?

    (My concern with this particular employee is that he doesn’t have a great reputation. Four other managers—including my own manager, two of the people who managed this employee in the past, and a deputy director—have told me he’s a “problem” and I’ve got to watch him carefully because he’ll slack off. Add to that the fact that he works a shifted schedule—7am to 3pm—and very often when I swing by his desk to check on him, he’s not there. Not just “he’s in the bathroom” but “he’s not in.” He’s dealing with some family issues, and so I’ve been giving him the benefit of the doubt—as a manager, he’s exempt, and so in theory he’s allowed that flexibility as long as the work gets done. But it’s been frequent enough that I’m feeling doubtful, and since I don’t know enough about his responsibilities, I can’t easily check up him.)

    Thoughts? My suspicion is that I need to 1) make it clear he needs to be at his desk every work day and 2) communicate any absence to me in advance, but I’d love other advice or suggestions.

    1. Someone*

      So I also have a direct report who is a manager, I don’t really know exactly what her work day entails, and I don’t even think she puts in full-time hours, but I don’t really care because I know she gets good results.

      I wouldn’t worry about face-time and absences, that doesn’t really matter.

      What matters is results.

      What are his KPIs? How does he report his results? It sounds like you need to come up with some kind of reporting system.

      My report has a team of 4, I can see their output directly and when I talk to them they say they love their manager. She has all kinds of reports and spreadsheets to track results that I can look at, but there’s also a basic weekly spreadsheet where her KPIs and her team’s KPIs are reported that I can look at weekly.

    2. Blueberry Girl*

      Yes, does he have goals? Are those goals measurable? Are they being met? Those would be the things I would look at. If he doesn’t have goals and they are not measurable, than you need to sit down with him and make some.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Have a conversation – turn it into a PIP if necessary. When an employee’s wife was being treated for cancer his attendance was really spotty. But I knew what was up – he kept his deputy and me informed. If he was simply not in with no notice I’d consider him AWOL, which, to be fair, happened a couple of times. I called, and when he was reached at home it was usually because there had been a medical or kid crisis. While I was sympathetic to the situation, it was important to both of us – and to his team – to keep him accountable.

      If your employee needs to be at his desk everyday, tell him that and keep track. Ding him when he’s not there. And I recommend you make it a point to show up at 7:00 every once in a while. When I switched to an early schedule I was unfortunately not surprised to discover that people who were supposed to be there at 7:00 often didn’t come in until 7:45 – a safe enough margin to look like they’d arrived on time when others arrived between 8:00 and 8:15.

    4. Alex*

      It sounds like….maybe your company doesn’t actually need his position? What does he add? What is he accomplishing? If you can’t tell whether or not he’s doing any work…isn’t that your answer there?

  144. future parent*

    A question for non-gestational parents: If your company offers parental leave, when did you tell your boss about your partner’s pregnancy? And did you end up breaking it up (to spend some time at home right after the baby was born, and then going back on leave after your partner returned to work)? If so, how did you break it up?

    My wife is currently pregnant with our first child and is beginning to show, so she told her boss this week and is starting to plan her leave with HR. My company offers leave with 30 days notice, but I have several long-term projects that I will need to make arrangements for in advance, and of course, I don’t want word to get around the office before I let my boss know about the pregnancy. Curious to hear what others did in our situation!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      IDK about the notice part, but my manager is on leave right now. He took the birth week off and then came back to work for one week, then had two weeks off. I like this approach from a work perspective because all the things you thought were lined out that really weren’t can be addressed in that one week back at the office. For him, it worked out at home, too, because he had his MIL staying with them in that week he was back at work. It spreads out the coverage at home to different people.

    2. Anonymeuse*

      Speaking as a gestational soon-to-be-parent, my partner told his employer at the same time I told mine, and yes he’s planning to break up his leave — he’s taking a bit of time with me when baby arrives, then the rest of his leave when I go back to work.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I banked the maximum amount of PTO, intending to take about 3/4 of it all at once after the birth (and use the rest for pediatrician appointments and sick child care), but since my “gestational partner” was also home, I wound up going back to work 2 days a week after about 3 weeks, then 3 days a week at 5 weeks, so that I could relieve my partner of infant care more often than if I was full time, and that also stretched my leave out a little more. (At 3 months we started day care.)

      1. The Cosmic Avenger*

        Oh, sorry, and we told my manager and coworkers a few weeks after we told family, I think it was about 4-5 months, but I am pretty close with a lot of the people I work with.

    4. Bear Shark*

      My spouse gave notice of the need for leave about the time I notified my employer – informally with management about 6 months ahead of the due dates and formally 2-3 months out with HR for FMLA and STD leave. Spouse took his parental leave mostly as 1 chunk after baby was born and then a few days here and there after I went back to work to help ease the transition.

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      My husband and I work for the same employer, so we told our bosses the same day (pretty early on in the pregnancy). We’re in a state that will enact paid family leave in 2020 so we’re waiting to discuss leave options with HR until they figure out how the program works, so in January or February (I’m due in June). I’ll be taking my 12 weeks immediately upon birth, and right now the plan is for him to take 4-8 weeks immediately, then return to work for a couple of months due to a particularly busy time at work, then back on leave to finish out his 12 weeks. It’s great because it gives us extra time to keep the kiddo at home before subjecting them to daycare germs, plus each of us gets solo bonding and care time with the little one.

    6. New Momma*

      I just returned from my maternity leave. My husband told his employer around the same time I did, as he was going to be taking me to some of the earlier appointments, and if anything had happened to me during the pregnancy, he would have to leave work at a moments notice.
      He took off 2 weeks to stay home with me and our little one after the birth. We ended up spending almost 1 week in the hospital. I would see what your wife’s PTO is going to look like if she decides to go back to work. Once you see how many hours/days she will have left, make your choice then. In my case I used all my PTO so my husband will have to take our child to any doctors appointments and also stay home if our child is ill and can’t go to daycare.

      1. Olive Hornby*

        Ooh, this is a really going point–thank you. I have some ability to flex my hours but should save some PTO for appointments.

  145. Wombats!!!*

    Is it ever ok to push back on the goals your boss wants from you; espeically when they really don’t understand/value what I do? Can I say something like “Considering the lack of resources and support my depatment gets (it’s a department of one FYI) and the impact our growth has had and continues to have on day to day duties, I can’t help but feel the goals being put forth for the year are not only unrealistic but make me question if I’m being set up for failure.”?

    The real question is probably, is it worth the trouble saying it will cause?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you are being overworked and the expectations are skewed, you should voice your feelings to them. I would tell them that you’re not equip to meet those goals. I wouldn’t go towards the “I feel like I’m being set up to fail” because that starts off the pathway of “I want to do my best and have realistic expectations that can be met.” and into some kind of “conspiracy theory, are you out to get me or what?” territory.

      Goals must be flexible and reasonably obtainable, they don’t need to take into consideration doomsday scenarios or anything. But they do need to be built to withstand some unexpected issues that mean you cannot build a budget around your idea that you’re going to increase sales by 37% this year. So your boss should be kind of pulled back when screaming over the hills with their poorly placed goals.

      But approach it in a feedback kind of way. Bosses need feedback and your input in these things, they can dream and they can pitch big but you’re not magic, you don’t granted wishes [or do you, is that you, Genie?!]. So yes, this is a discussion to be had!

    2. Lyudie*

      If your company is like mine, you’re going to be held to those goals come performance assessment time so they need to be realistic! I would push back on it for sure. I would be upset if I got a bad rating because someone who didn’t understand my role foisted unrealistic goals on me.

    3. Tea Fish*

      It is absolutely okay to push back on unrealistic/nonsensical goals, but I think the way you’ve phrased things here does position things in an adversarial way. From someone who spends all day softening difficult messages between my bosses and our clients, here’s how I would adjust your script.

      “Can we discuss the goals set for the new year? Our growth has had a really heavy impact on my day to day duties– right now, I have my hands pretty full prioritizing A, B, and C. To meet the additional goals, I’m going to need X, Y, and Z, and additional resources and support for my department.”

      [Insert whatever they say, probably something like We Can’t Provide The Things You Are Asking for… or maybe even We Can Do X, but Not Y or Z.]

      “I understand– resources are limited! But to be able to accomplish these goals, I’m definitely going to need Y, or to reprioritize A and B. Can we discuss what my workload will look like in the upcoming months?”

      Coming at things from a collaborative viewpoint (even if you’re feeling like they’re doing the professional equivalent of kicking you into a sinkhole) and with a tone that conveys “Look, I REALLY WANT TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN, but I need you to give me the tools to do so” will hopefully get you better results!

    4. annony*

      I would flip the script you have around to make it sound a little more positive. “In order to achieve these goals, I would need X, Y and Z. Without those resources I can only achieve (modified goals). Is there any way we can get those additional resources or should we modify the goals?”

  146. Ho-ho-holiday party dilemma*

    My team just sent an email around with our holiday party plans after having us all (~15) vote on a few options. As luck would have it, the popular vote went to the one option I (the lady who’ll be ~8.5 months pregnant by then) was really hoping wouldn’t win: we’re going off-site to a colleague’s house, which happens to be out in the woods almost an hour away. I get why everyone was swayed — he has a hot tub! And pets! Outdoor winter activities! At a pretty cabin in the woods! But also: hot tub with coworkers is weird (and no hot tubs for the pregnant lady), and I have enough trouble walking indoors right now that I’m not down for winter activities. Oh, and it’s an hour’s drive away from the closest hospital, and even farther to a hospital where my midwife has privileges.

    I’m not going, but am I better off being sick that day or talking to my boss beforehand? It’s my bad that I didn’t think to say something earlier about reasons why I *can’t* go (as opposed to why I just don’t want to), and I don’t want to make it A Thing and make everyone change their plans now. On the other hand, if I know I’m not going, it seems a bit jerky to let everyone plan carpools and meals and our gift exchange as if I’ll participate (and I’m perfectly willing to contribute the $20 or so they’d be collecting to cover that stuff!). With the size of our team, everyone usually goes to our holiday parties, especially since they’re during work hours and off-site, but people can miss the party without it being A Thing. So do I quietly tell my boss why I’m not going, or should I just be sick that day?

    1. CheeryO*

      Assuming your boss is a reasonable person, I would just let them know in advance that you won’t be able to go. It’s super understandable that you’d be less than 100% comfortable with that setup. I think it’s fine that you didn’t proactively bring it up, as long as you’re okay with missing it.

    2. Do I need a hard hat for this?*

      I think the best thing will be honesty, since it may prompt them next year to have more consideration next year (or they’ll still be oblivious…who knows). Just say you’re sad to miss it, but it’s too far from the hospital at that point in your pregnancy, since that’s the piece of the puzzle that’s non-negotiable. Don’t even mention the other logistics. Then spread the word a bit that you’re sad to miss it, hope everyone has fun, they should send you selfies in the hot tub, you’ll be glad to kick up your poor swollen feet, etc. Make light of it!

      I would think they would give you the day off since no one else will be in the office. I wouldn’t even offer to take a sick day, unless you’ve got so many accrued that it won’t matter this late in the year.

      Congrats!

    3. WellRed*

      The fact that they didn’t even consider an 8.5 months pregnant person’s ability to navigate all this says to me you should say something so if they are at all reasonable they will be more considerate of ALL employees next time around.

    4. Alex*

      “I’m sorry, that’s farther than I’m comfortable traveling at this stage in my pregnancy, so I’ll need to skip it this year” is a perfectly polite, valid, and common reason for skipping something. I’d say that.

    5. Bear Shark*

      Tell your boss beforehand that you’re sorry you’ll miss it (even if you’re not) but that your midwife doesn’t want you that far away from the hospital you’re delivering at when you’re that far along. Best if you can pull off a “sounds fun, don’t change anything for me though” tone. With only 15 of you it would have been better that they took you into consideration but I think a lot of people don’t think about restrictions people may have. I had to point out to my team that we should not do a teambuilding event at a trampoline park since our pregnant employee couldn’t participate.

    6. Susan K*

      I vote to talk to your boss ahead of time. I would just say something like, “I’m just not going to be up for that kind of event.” I assume your boss knows you’re pregnant and pretty far along, and as long as she’s not completely oblivious, that’s probably all you’ll need to say. If she asks for further explanation, I’d say, “Ordinarily I’d love to go, but I’ll have to bow out of this one since I’ll be 8.5 months pregnant.” If even that isn’t enough, you can explain that you’re under doctor’s orders not to travel that far.

      Also, if you say you’re sick, your coworkers will probably be worried about you and the baby.

    7. LilySparrow*

      I’d just mention it directly to whoever asks you about carpools or collecting gift money.

      “Oh, I can’t go, but here’s my $20, yall have a great time!”

      If they ask why, then you can say the part about being too far from the hospital. But if your goal is to not make it AThing, then don’t go make it A Thing with your boss.

      It’s not a secret, it’s nothing to hide or be fake- sick about. You just can’t participate this time.

      And frankly, I would assume the majority of people would be able to grok pretty quickly why you can’t participate. Unless there is a serious culture bubble on your team, most adults at least know someone who has been pregnant.

  147. Mediamaven*

    A friend of mine has received near perfect reviews in her role at a company for more than 10 years. She is highly respected and admired. She is underpaid and asked for a raise and pled her case. She was denied, and it her next step of reviews her manager gave her far worse ratings (her last review was only six months ago where the same manager gave her perfect ratings). This will impact any chance of a raise. Is this retaliation? What can she do?

    1. CatCat*

      She can look for a job at a company that won’t underpay her and penalize her because she sought pay consistent with her skills and experience.

    2. fposte*

      It sounds like you think it would be illegal if it were retaliation, but retaliation in general isn’t illegal; it’s retaliation for a legally protected action that’s a legal breach. What she can do is consider that a place that hasn’t give her a raise and responds punitively to the request is a place to consider moving on from.

  148. Emby*

    What are the ethics of looking for a new job while on maternity leave? Does it matter if it’s not officially maternity leave, but rather just cobbling together accrued sick and vacation time, along with some unpaid time off? My office is imploding, and I think it’s time for me to look for a new job, but I’m also about to start 12 weeks of leave. There is a chance things will be better by the time I come back, but there is also a good chance things will be way worse, as all my competent colleagues are talking about leaving.

    1. Anonymeuse*

      Has your current employer given you something on an understanding that you’ll be back? Mine gives some maternity benefits (i.e., generous paid time off) that are dependent on me coming back to work for them for another 6 months at the end of my leave and I’d have to pay them back if I don’t hold up my end.

      But if you’re not getting something like that, I don’t see an ethical issue with job hunting while you’re on leave, any more than with sending out resumes or interviewing on a day you’re out sick. I’d maybe hold off for a few weeks, mostly because no one wants to be doing phone screens with a 2-week-old at home, but I’d be surprised if the jobs you’re applying for are moving so quickly that you get an offer before your leave is done, so why not get the head start?

    2. Natalie*

      I don’t see any ethical issue, you can look for a new job whenever you want. If they wanted to prevent that somehow, they’d give you a contract and some consideration both ways.

      One thing to be aware of *if you are on FMLA leave* specifically, and you have employer provided health insurance, is that they are continuing to pay their share of the premium (as required by FMLA). If you do not return from leave they can ask you to pay that money back.

      1. Hi there*

        That is so interesting to know. I have an employee out on FMLA who is taking a new job in January. I have been wondering if she’d come back before then, and your comment makes me think she has to.

        1. Natalie*

          Well, it’s not required that the company claw back their health insurance premiums, it’s just allowed. Plenty of places don’t for logistical and/or optics reasons.

  149. Sneezy*

    I recently (less than 6 months) moved to a different region of the US.

    On Monday I stayed home sick with a cold.

    When I came back on Tuesday, a coworker Carrie asked when I was, I said I had a cold, she said, “no, you have allergies, when I moved here I got terrible allergies.” I said, nope, just a cold, but it’s getting better, and she keep INSISTING it was allergies. Eventually she left (I think my phone rang)

    Later than day, she came by my desk with region specific allergy meds. This time I said thanks for the offer, but I know how it feels when I get a cold, and this has been the usual process (sore throat, then stuffy, then drippy, now on to the cough) so it is a cold.

    Today I was making tea in the kitchen (BECAUSE I HAVE A COLD), where I bumped into Carrie who said “I still think you have allergies”

    Me – Nope, I know how I get colds, this is a cold, it’s not allergies
    C – are you SURE? I has terrible allergies when I first moved here
    Me – Nope, this is a cold. My husband has the same cold, and it would be so rare for us both to have allergies hit us at the same time
    C – He must have allergies too!
    Me – Carrie, stop trying to make allergies happen! It’s not going to happen! (I WISH I said this, in reality, I just rolled my eyes and walked away)

    Could I have been clearer? Why does she care so much?!

    1. Anonymeuse*

      To be fair, I *have* heard of people who move to a new region and didn’t realize they had allergies until like 3 years later when they clue in that the bad “colds” they’ve been getting every April are actually allergies to a particular kind of native pollen… But also, it’s weird for someone to be so overly invested in your sniffles.

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        It’s funny because this is the reverse argument I had with my freshman roommate.

        Her: I have a cold again, I’ve been constantly sick.
        Me: I think you have allergies, you’ve been vaguely sniffly for six months now and not gotten better or worse.

        Instead she said it was my fault and the other people in our dorm for not going to bed at 10 pm because our existing was keeping her up and causing her to get sick *rolls eyes*

        1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

          She actually did have allergies, though, Student Health told her several times and she wouldn’t listen.

        2. Anonymeuse*

          Ha! Yeah, I mean, at that point I’d say something too. Then again, I don’t think it’s Carrie’s diagnosis that’s weird so much as her insistence that it MUST be allergies and CANNOT be a cold.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Sneeze on her? If it’s allergies, it’s not contagious, so…

      Sorry, that’s terrible advice. Hope you feel better soon, and that she starts leaving you alone even sooner!

    3. Punk Ass Book Jockey*

      I have no advice, only sympathy–my mom does the same thing. When I had the (diagnosed) flu last year, she texted me every day to ask if my allergies were any better. It’s so frustrating and kind of demeaning. Like, she somehow knows my body better than me?

      Anyway, my advice is to ask where she got her medical degree from and/or tell her there’s only one way to find out if you’re contagious and sneeze all over her.

    4. A. Ham*

      Speaking as someone who DID get new allergies after moving to a new geographical area- while there may be some symptom similarity, I still can differentiate a cold and allergies. crazy, I know.
      *side note- I had a cold quite recently, and, like you, I get the cough at the end, which I still have just a little bit. Anyway, I had a coworker I rarely see try to convince me I have asthma because she heard me cough ONCE while she was talking to me. Some people just like to be know it alls about that kind of thing. *shrug*

  150. Ouchie*

    Anyone have recommendations for well-paying jobs (>$6ok) in NYC that someone with a higher ed. administrator desk job could do, that is still mostly indoors but NOT sitting at a desk and staring at a computer screen all day? My eyes are killing me and I hate sitting all day, even with a standing desk option and frequent mini-breaks.

  151. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

    Anyone have any suggestions for how to have a “If this doesn’t change, it will drive me to start looking for another job” conversation without it sounding like a threat to quit? Here’s the sitch:
    My department is split into two teams, both led by Director-level managers. They work closely together in decision making, because our work is very related. The other team has some difficult personalities that until the last few months were just missing stairs that everyone kind of put up with, but they have gotten out of control in the negativity and whining and gossiping lately. One of these people is a temp, whose assignment should be ending soon but there is always the possibility that she will be converted to full time. If that happens I will 100% begin to job hunt because she makes the working environment unbearable. I am often told not to send emails to her because of the tantrum she will throw, and this leads to things falling through the cracks.
    Unfortunately, her boss is extremely conflict-avoidant, which has led this negativity to just become bolder and bolder over the last few months.
    I would like to have a conversation with my boss about how this is affecting my work, but also to get the point across that I am prepared to leave over it if it continues into next year. My boss is extremely supportive of me, respects me, and definitely wants to keep me around since he has plans to promote me in the next year. I think he would be receptive to this, but I absolutely don’t want to sound like I’m just furthering the gossip or negativity and throwing a tantrum myself.
    Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      I think this sounds reasonable, especially considering the established relationship. “I’ve found the morale situation on Team B to be a big hit to my work satisfaction, and it’s affecting my view of my future here. I don’t know if this makes a difference to what management can do about the situation, but I wanted to let you know just in case.”

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      How to approach this depends on your relationship with your boss.

      I had a similar conversation with my boss a year ago, as we were going through a reorganization. I had spent months negotiating to have a profoundly incompetent colleague moved off of the program that I manage (I directed her work on my program, but did not manage her), and when I heard that she was going to remain on my budget for the following year I told my boss that I could not run the program with her on it. My boss knew how to read between my lines, and happily the incompetent colleague was reassigned (and later quit).

  152. AlmondMilkLatte*

    How do any of you work from home with pets? My wife’s furry coworkers cry, fight, and scratch at doors to get into wherever she is while she’s WFH. They also enjoy knocking important things to the floor and trying to get in her lap or be a parrot/a hat on her whenever she sits in a chair or bed.

    (Two adults, a teenager, four cats, and five fish in 1000 sf- yes, we are looking at a house, but in the meantime?)

    What’s the craziest thing your animal coworkers do?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My older dog (12) is super laid back and just wants to be outside, weather permitting, so I just have to let her in and out a few times. My younger dog (5) came home from the humane society when she was 8 weeks old and I’ve been WFH her whole life, so she’s used to it and she actually gets mad at me on mornings when I get up and don’t go into the office. Like, she’ll go get in my chair and wait for me and huff and puff if I go into the living room instead. Otherwise, most of the time she either gets in the chair behind me or curls up on the pillow behind the chair and sleeps all day.

      I don’t have to worry about my husband’s cats much – they’re not allowed in my office – but sometimes the stoner gets het-up on catnip and wanders around the house with a catnip mouse stuffed in her mouth yelling around it.

    2. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      I am working remote temporarily, and my roommate’s cat just stares at me. She’s also completely silent. She’s also take up residence in my bed.
      You never realize how creepy silent cats are until you turn around and just see a cat sitting on the floor staring up at you. Or you wake up in the morning and she’s sitting next to your face just staring at you.
      I guess it’s good for my work that she doesn’t make a lot of noise, but I would almost prefer at least some chirps or something.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My bud sometimes whines and wants me to sit with him on the living room sofa. He has a giant bed in my office but the windows don’t go all the way to the floor, so he prefers to be in the living room where he can watch the world go by. I’m trying to break him of that habit. But he’s mostly pretty chill, though sometimes he does bug me when he wants food or a walk. He also likes to work in public places, so sometimes he’ll bug me and I’ll take him to a lounge space in the building.

    4. Lyudie*

      Everyone I work with knows that if I am working at home and we are doing a video call (pretty rare actually) my cat *will* make an appearance at least once. I work in a room with no door and he requires my attention (or least lap and body heat) at all times when I am home. I have actually talked about setting up a separate office in the spare room so that I can lock him out when he’s being extra annoying but I’m too cheap/lazy to do that at the moment.

      Now and then he will step on my keyboard and IM random letters to someone. So far it has been fine (once to a coworker and once to my old manager, both figured out immediately what was going on and laughed about it). Sometimes he walks around yelling at me but sometimes he just sits on my closed laptop and sucks up its heat.

    5. cat socks*

      I work from home a couple of days a week and I have five cats. One of our bedrooms is the “office” with both mine and my husband’s computer desks. If I need to be on a conference call, I will close the door. A couple of the cats like to be near me so they will usually hang out in the hallway while I’m working. If I keep the door open they will jump on the desk and walk across my laptop and sit on the laptop. I need to try the trick of keeping a box nearby to see if they will jump in that instead.

      Luckily they have never randomly sent an IM or email, but they seem to change random settings that sometimes require me to restart my laptop.

    6. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I have two dogs (aged 6 months and 1 year) and they usually sleep through the morning but then feel the need to chase each other around the house (including around my table) around 1pm. It’s pretty annoying. They also freak out whenever someone comes to the door so I better hope I’m not on the phone when the Amazon driver shows up.

    7. emmelemm*

      I don’t work from home, I bring my dog to the office. She’s chill and sleeps under my desk most of the day. It’s lovely.

      Occasionally she’ll get a bug up her butt and start tapping me on the arm (standing up and putting her paw on my arm where it’s on the arm of my chair) and I’ll take her for a quick out but as soon as we’re back in, she starts doing it again. Even if I give her a Pupperoni, she’ll still do it. Eventually it dies down, but it’s hard to work with a little tap-tap-tap and eyes boring intensely into the back of your head.

  153. Marzipan*

    One more week to go before my 20 week scan, after which I’m planning to actually tell people about being pregnant (all being well). I am so not getting away with it anymore; I am down to three work outfits that are sufficiently ambiguous to not be totally obvious, and this week colleagues have started giving sideways glances to my abdomen and my boss keeps asking if there’s anything I want to talk about. (‘No, nothing!’ I cheerfully say.) Hey ho!

    1. Anonymeuse*

      I’m in awe! I told people at 15 weeks because I felt like it was getting obvious. Then again, I had people tell me like a month and a half that I was starting to show (?), and at about 32 weeks, I just had someone ask if I’m pregnant (and I have a small frame… it’s extremely obvious that I’m pregnant).

      So I guess it’s one of those things where it looks so much more glaring to you than it does to others. Congratulations!

  154. Narvo Flieboppen*

    Welcome once again to Narvo’s game of is there something wrong with these people or am I insane?

    Round 1: No fruit for you!

    We have an all you can eat lunch buffet, pay once and you can just gorge yourself. In between meals, we also have beverages and several large bowls of fruit which are available for snacking, as needed. The beverages and fruit are provided free of charge. And the food is quite good, so this is an all around good deal.

    Those of us not located in the main building, where the cafeteria is, have to go containers available so we can fill them up and take them back to our own buildings to eat, if we prefer. There was an issue some months back, when this was first instituted, where some of the people in the smaller buildings on campus were hitting up the buffet, then filling up a to go container, and leaving with a second full meal of food while only paying for one. This is obviously not the way ‘all you can eat’ works and HR addressed the issue.

    I had my lunch, ate in the cafeteria, and snagged a pear out of the fruit bowl to take back to my office with me. On my way out of the cafeteria, I was stopped by worker manning the door. He told me I had to put the pear back because ‘to go’ food isn’t allowed. I, quite reasonably, said the fruit is always available for free.

    But, no, Door Dude assured me this was wrong. The fruit was only free for the taking outside of meal times. During meals you had to eat it there or leave it.

    I pointed out that meal time ended in 30 minutes. Posed the question that if I came back in 31 minutes would I be allowed to take the pear back to my own building with me? Yes, of course, because that’s outside of meal time. This is where my frontal lobe twitched a bit. I mean, just ow.

    Fortunately, the Executive Chef walked by at that point. He said hi and we fist bumped, as one does. At this point, I asked him for clarification on whether fruit was free to take away during meals. Chef’s response is yes, why wouldn’t it be? Door Dude then proceeds to correct the chef. To be clear on the hierarchy, Chef is this guy’s great grandboss. Door Dude then demands that I hand him the fruit because I’m not allowed to take it. Chef’s jaw just about hit the floor. Chef calls over Door Dude’s boss and tells me to just go and not worry about it. I leave, over Door Dude’s protests, and quietly wonder if he is any way related to Annie, the former gumption girl of Marketing.

    Round 2: Narvo is scary.

    I don’t work in a customer facing role, though I do frequently interact with them to phone tree errors and when I’m out and about on campus. We had a special event this week, which was focused on women, so the normal gender ratio among customers was heavily skewed towards women. One of those customers lodged a complaint about me. She had been in line behind me when I was making a purchase in our gift shop. Her complaint boils down to Narvo’s height, deep voice, and facial hair made her very uncomfortable. In fact, men should not be allowed on the premises while the woman-centric event was running. This complaint was mentioned to me as a ‘hey this happened, but don’t worry, we’re ignoring it’ thing.

    Round 3: Narvo is scary. Again.

    On this occasion, another customer caused a ruckus by telling Security there was an armed man in the building. They pulled up the camera feeds to have her point him out. You can guess who it was, I know you can. The ‘obvious’ weapon which was ‘hidden’ in my jacket? The paperback book I was reading while eating my lunch. Fortunately, I was saved a great hassle by the head of Security recognizing me and coming to see me himself rather than calling the police to report a possible shooter on the premises.

    I am very much looking forward to going home today…

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You pear snatching monster!

      I would have just laughed and watched him try to wrestle the pear out of my dead hands. What was he going to do? Tackle you for the pear? “STOP! DROP! THAT! PEAR!”

      I’m glad that this happened in front of senior leadership who can actually get that guy trained to do his job properly. He’s clearly back and white, no grey area. And in that kind of role, you usually don’t get to exercise a lot of decision making.

  155. Ma-Nuh Ma-Nuh*

    One guy in my office is annoying as all crap. Among other things, he likes to “clarify” his statements by saying “In other words” followed by an exact repeat of everything he already said. (“Do it this way. In other words, you should do it this way. In other words, this is how you should do it.”)

    Dude, when you say “In other words,” please use OTHER words.

    1. CAA*

      I sympathize. I have someone who for a while was starting nearly every conversation with “what was I going to say?” and it was driving me crazy. I finally started answering with “I have no idea, but come find me if you remember” and that stopped it pretty quickly.

      Unfortunately I don’t think there’s a good response for your dude that would make sense in the moment.

    2. Bagpuss*

      The only thing I can think of is to say something like “it’s OK, I got it the first time “ as soon as he starts to say “in other words..”

  156. Nynaeve*

    Advice on diversity initiatives!

    I have recently taken over as chair of a recently formed Diversity & Inclusion Task Force for our academic library. (The previous chair left for an opportunity to spend a year in London, and good for her.) How can I 1) best use the task force’s time in meetings, 2) foster meaningful conversation and dialogue, and 3) lead toward actionable items that will move our library forward in a meaningful way?

    Background: the rest of the university has started to (finally) begin thinking about diversity in a more systematic way. I would describe the university’s general attitude toward diversity as benignly neglectful/checkbox/positive in a shallow way, with pockets of problematic behavior/resistance/blind spots. Like, diversity is HR’s job and we just have to treat people equally/respectfully. But there’s little real understanding or discussion of systematic racism, sexism, classism, homophobia, etc. (although there’s starting to be more).

    The previous chair’s focus was going to be on creating a diversity statement for the library (because at the time, the university was focusing on working on a diversity statement). The university’s focus now is on an environmental scan–getting data on what current attitudes and issues are. I think that’s probably a good direction for to focus on as well, but I’m at a loss on the best way to gather that data in a way that would get honest responses while not making people automatically defensive. And I’m sure there are other things we could address, too, so I’m open to hearing thoughts from the commentariat.

    Demographic background: I’m a white, cisgender, middle class woman in her late 30s. The committee includes representatives from every department with a mix of races, ages, and sexualities, but we’re all women (hello, libraries!). I initially struggled with whether I should let someone with less privilege take the lead, but 1) this is everyone’s work and 2) no one else was stepping up. So here we are!

    I’m doing as much background research (webinars, books, blogs, etc.) as I can because I know I have just…ALL the blind spots. So resource recommendations are welcome as well.

    1. Anonymeuse*

      I don’t have a ton of recommendations, but having worked with a colleague who had limited use of his hands related to a disability, one general suggestion I’d make is to circulate your agenda in advance and/or allow input by email, rather than just table-dropping.

      Beyond that, and speaking as another white cis woman in her 30s, I’d say that diversity statements are nice, but also kind of window dressing. Your time and efforts are better spent facilitating discussion of current issues or brainstorming things that would help rather than crafting the perfect diversity statement. That said, useful meetings have a strong leader, and if you’re the chair then that should be you. As for making the meetings inclusive, be conscious of your language (“you guys”, slang that has racial origins) and be open to hearing what needs fixing, including about yourself, and just do your best… But part of being a good leader is being frank about what you don’t know, so I’d start by having the group brainstorm how best to start that environmental scan.

      1. Nynaeve*

        Thank you! I have been sending out the agenda ahead of time, and we also have all our minutes and research on a folder in the shared drive. I agree that the diversity statement is not the thing that would have the most impact, so I’m bumping it way down on the priority list, and I also reached out to the person who does a lot of our assessment and reporting to brainstorm useful approaches (surveys, focus groups, etc.).

    2. Sequoit*

      Hi! My academic library is in the throes of starting a more focused approach to diversity. I’m not on our “official” Diversity / Inclusion Task Force, but I’m on an adjacent taskforce looking at diversity / inclusion in a specific area. We’re lucky that our university is working hard in this area, so there’s a lot of existing support for these efforts on campus.

      I think to answer your questions:
      (1) Agendas! Also don’t just make everything a general discussion–set goals for what you want to accomplish / discuss. e.g. “Decide major topics for employee survey about attitudes toward diversity in their jobs”
      (2) Be open to making mistakes. Listen to the things that are hard to hear.
      (3) Set up a strong foundation:
      – Diversity statement is a good start
      – Get management to commit / demonstrate meaningful support: get diversity / inclusion incorporated into your strategic plan, committed funding, etc.
      – Make concrete project plans (sometimes managers just wave their hand and say “do the diversity thing”) and link them to library goals / mission
      – Reach out to campus partners to help provide baseline training to employees so you all have a shared vocabulary

      Once you have the foundation, it’s easier to try to figure out what you can do to change things little by little. It’s really hard! You’ll probably meet resistance, because it’s one of those things that people like to SAY they’re doing, but once they see how it will upset the status quo, things get TOUGH.

      Fight the good fight!

      We’ve been very inspired by MIT Library’s work in this area and I’d highly recommend looking up their work and reaching out to them.

      1. Nynaeve*

        Thank you so much for the specific and detailed response! Tying diversity to the library goals and mission and getting it into the strategic plan is a great idea. I’ll take a look at the MIT Library also–thanks for the tip.

        Yeah, I definitely expect resistance. (Some from inside my brain! I’m not perfect!) I can pinpoint exactly who will resist certain things, but some people will probably surprise me (in good and bad ways). But I think it’s worth working through the resistance for.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, I maybe cynical after getting seriously burned out on a University Diversity Committee, but here’s what I would say- Make sure you admin is actually on-board and be brutally realistic about what you can/can not accomplish. We watched 2 or 3 year long projects get gutted by the University Administration. It was both one of the most worthwhile and one of the most horrifying things I’ve ever done professionally. So, at the danger of being the “debbie downer” just be aware that things might not move the ways you hoped.

      1. Nynaeve*

        Thanks for the wisdom of experience! I do suspect it’s mostly lip service/good intentions that will burn out as soon as things get hard, so I am trying to temper my expectations from “fix all the things!” to “better than the nothing we were doing before.” I don’t definitely don’t think we’ll change everyone’s mind, but I feel like we can at least start some conversations, fix or bring attention to a couple of major issues, and get some basic all-staff diversity training.

    4. Ranon*

      As a resource, AAIHS’s Black Perspectives blog has been doing a series on “Researching, Teaching, and Embodying the Black Diaspora” – not directly related to the projects you’re working on but covered a lot of ground and is academic/ university focused.

  157. Weird week*

    I had a business trip this week. It was a PITA trip, 2 full days travel for a 1.5 hr meeting. Going home, I had moved flights around and was stuck in a middle seat. A guy sits next to me and asks if I am [me] and then reminds me that he is Mike Smith, who interviewed me last year. I turned down the offer then. The offer took a long time. There were two roles. The offer was for the lesser role. I had some things up in the air on my current job.

    That was all a year ago. Since then, I managed a particular project from start to finish, when I was originally slated to manage phase 1 and then move to a new management role. The role was to be newly formed, but instead was done away with in a reorg at a higher level. We had another org change before that, and it was discussed to give me X director role that Steve left open when he moved to Y, but instead they rolled X into John’s existing director role. Predating both of these things was that we would bring in a new P&L and I would direct that in its infancy and it could grow and spin out, but another division won that battle and we didn’t get it.

    So. I am still plugging away at my job, literally being told that I am the best at what I do in my dept., with no changes on the horizon. This job is a perfectly acceptable terminal position, but I am not ready to top out, and frustrated by near miss promotions. The no-promo thing has happened before. I do feel there is some gender bias, with solid evidence I won’t get into. There is also some shareholder favoritism, which makes sense, but I am not one and therefore the limited opportunities above me probably won’t go to me (as is becoming obvious).

    All that to say the guy on the plane said they are still looking for people. I didn’t really say much because I was traveling for work and his other coworker was in the 3rd seat, and the whole thing was awkward. It would be a lateral move, but maybe a slight improvement in culture. The commute is double, and the pay structure is different. And I don’t think this boss would name call direct reports and mine does.

    I would not reach out to him unless I was sure I would move this time, but I am wondering if it is time now. My current place always has me on the hook, and I am worried I could leave before the breakthrough promotion would finally happen.

    What do you all think? Move or stay?

    1. JustMyImagination*

      I vote to move. They’ve let you down at least three times on a promotion. I wouldn’t count on the fourth time being the charm. But it doesn’t have to be for Mike’s company if there are other options in your area and doubling the commute is too much.

      1. Weird week*

        Thanks for the vote!
        My experience is fairly specific. There is one other local major firm (all national/intl firms really), which is where I started my career. I wouldn’t really consider them at this point, because of their current market position. There are other small companies or places I have the skill set for but not direct experience. I have poked around some and had a couple screens/interviews last year, but they weren’t matches. This would be the most certain opp.

        The commute is 20 min now to about 35 to 45 there. I’m at the outer edge now, so there isn’t much variability, but there is 10 miles of 4-5 lane hwy between here and there.

    2. Nancy*

      Aside from the very logical pros and cons you are weighing, I am a little attracted to the serendipity of this reconnection. The fact that he remembered your name and recognized you is a good sign to me as well. I would reach out to him and learn more, knowing that you have more to offer his company and sound like you could use a change.

    3. WellRed*

      I was going to say go for it until I saw your commute would double. Depending on what that means…I agree with JMI though that it’s time to start looking. Why would your company promote you at this point when they are so happy keeping you where you are.

      1. Weird week*

        I would not say the commute is a dealbreaker right now. That is another thing that changed. My last kid got his driver’s license. I liked being closer to pick him up from school sports, but now I don’t have to.

        The only two major cons are the pay structure is more bonus heavy. There is a potential upside there, too. The other is that I have been here forever, so I have 6 weeks PTO and am fully vested. They offered me 3 weeks before, but I didn’t negotiate because I wouldn’t have accepted.

  158. Nacho*

    There’s a desk at my office (open office call center, so we all sit in desks right next to each-other) that I really want. They made some improvements to accommodate an employee that no longer works here, so it’s currently empty. I asked my boss about moving to it a few weeks ago (it’s about 5 feet away from the one I’m currently at), and he said he’d think about it, but it was never brought up again. We did a seat shuffle a few days ago and I used the opportunity to ask him again, and his response was still that he was thinking about it. I get the feeling he’s not going to proactively give me the spot, or even remember that I want it, but I also don’t want to constantly ask him for this relatively minor thing. How long should I wait before bringing it up again?

    Side question: Am I the only one who thinks shuffling our seats around like that every few months for no reason is silly? I moved all of 3 desks over.

    1. WellRed*

      I think both seat shuffling on the regular, and the need for deep thinking over your request on your boss’s part is also silly. Why does he care?

    2. Auntie Social*

      What if you say “you haven’t given me any reasons why I shouldn’t sit there” the next time you see him.

  159. Anna G.*

    Opinion Poll: On casual Friday’s, is wearing an oversized sweater or sweatshirt considered “slummy” or “slobby”?

    More in-depth post:

    I’m a fan of oversized shirts in general, usually flannels or sweaters for business wear with khakis or black dress pants. And on casual days, I get to whip out my soft, plush sweatshirts! Now, when I say oversized, it’s nothing outrageously big, but an XL or XXL when I could probably fit into a M or L. (Women’s shirt sizes are so weird and variable!)

    Now, no one’s said anything about my attire the entire 1.5 years I’ve worked here and everything I wear falls in our dress code. But I’m interested in hearing what others think about co-workers who wear looser clothes in terms of professionalism, etc.

    1. WellRed*

      I personally think oversized sweatshirts for work are slobby, but that could just be me. I especially think this if they are hooded and extra especially if they have a sports team or something emblazoned on them. Interested to hear what others think.

      1. WellRed*

        I see you are asking about coworkers: I have never had a coworker who wears sweatshirts, but have occasionally thought their logo t-shirt with shorts was a bit “glad you could leave your gardening and come to work today.” I say this with a smile, while wearing jeans, sneakers and a cashmere sweater ; ). We are not public facing at all and our casual dress code has gradually gotten more casual.

      2. Anna G.*

        I do sometimes wear the hooded sweatshirts, but only on Friday when sweatshirts are permitted. No logo or embellishments on them, though.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      Are these sweatshirts clean and in good condition? Is everything else you’re wearing fitting more or less appropriately? Then it should be fine. But this is still company culture specific.

      1. Anna G.*

        Yep. I think maybe one or two have those really annoying fuzzies a lot of shirts get, but otherwise clean and in good shape. And my pants are appropriately fitted.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      Whether your outfits are appropriate (or “professional”) depends on the context of your workplace.

      In my workplace — which is a white-collar office, but quite casual — an oversized sweatshirt would be very out of place, even on Fridays. Frankly, a well-fitted sweatshirt would still read as much more casual than most other folks. Most shirts that are “too big” aren’t going to read as professional; intentionally oversized shirts (where the construction of the shirt is sized correctly, but the shape billows out from the body) could potentially look professional, depending on the details of the shirt itself (fabric, style, etc.).

        1. Anna G.*

          The sweater is pretty cute but would need to be longer, but the smock shirt would fall under very much not something I’d be comfortable wearing.

          A huge issue I run into with shirts, and why I go oversized, is they are either (1) not long enough, because I prefer my bottom to be covered, (2) too tight in the chest and/or shoulders, or (3) both. Most button up shirts for women are too tight in the chest, and if I button up as high as I prefer the fabric between the buttons gaps. And I don’t like to show my undershirt because most camisole shirts or tanks are too low cut.

    4. New Job So Much Better*

      Some of the women here dress that way at times, they really aren’t supposed to but no one says anything to them. Just make sure your butt is covered by more than leggings :)

    5. CheeryO*

      Depends on how casual your casual Fridays are, I think. If people are getting away with super casual stuff like leggings, hoodies, graphic tees, etc., then I think an oversized sweater or sweatshirt is fine. If it’s more along the lines of nice-ish tops and jeans, I would err on the side of fashionably oversized (e.g., comfy but still shaped like clothes and not like a sack).

      1. Anna G.*

        No leggings allowed, just jeans for casual days. Hoodies seem to be okay, as I’ve worn them before and never been scolded. But none of our clothes are allowed to have graphics on them, period.

    6. PolarVortex*

      If you do the oversized shirt right, it falls in line with the trend of big tops, skinny jean type bottoms. I think it’s all about how you’re wearing it. Are the shoes super casual? Black skinny jeans and non-tennis shoes can be a game changer there. Or if the sweatshirts are plain – no writing on them – and you have a necklace that spiffies it up a bit, that’d work too.

      That being said, usually if you’re questioning it, it’s probably not working.

      On the plus side, it’s so easy to find oversized (and meant to be oversized) cardigans, sweaters, dressy sweatshirts, etc right now. Go find one or two of those and wear it all the time, not just on casual fridays. (Unless you’re super formal all other days, in which case, I’m so sorry.)

      1. Anna G.*

        It’s not that it isn’t working; it works for me and it seems to be okay as I’ve been dressing like this almost two years now, and am unlikely to change that unless my job depends on it**. I mainly was just wondering because I wore a new sweatshirt today that ended up baggier than I expected (it falls past my fingertips, for example), so I was curious about outside perspectives.

        ** Mainly because I’m *super* picky about clothes. I hate most non-tennis shoe shoes – boots are okay – I don’t wear black jeans, and I don’t accessorize at all, just going by your suggestions.

    7. Lyudie*

      Sweaters are probably fine, I wouldn’t do sweatshirts personally but I see hoodies at my office all week so *shrug*. I think if it was something sportier like a performance fleece jacket it would look a little better than hoodie, maybe.

    8. Catsaber*

      Welcome to higher education IT, where as long as it’s reasonably clean and has minimal holes, it’s acceptable! Although if it has the university logo on it, ANYTHING is acceptable, and I do mean anything.

      I am a big fan of the oversized top and frequently pair my sweatshirt or sweater with skinny jeans or thick leggings (yes, I wear leggings to work, and I love it). I (hopefully) elevate the look by wearing really kick-ass shoes and other cool accessories, and a muted/neutral color palette. Today’s lewk is a light gray oversized cardigan, a lilac tunic, blue skinny jeans and sparkly black glitter Doc Martens.

      For me, it goes “slobby” if it’s obviously dirty, like lots of stains everywhere, and it smells.

      But clearly this is going to depend on your industry and company. One reason I enjoy working here is because I can dress so casually, because I absolutely hate having a separate “work” wardrobe.

  160. Great Beyond*

    I have a coworker who seemed okay at first, but he’ll make weird comments like, “If I have to stay, you have to stay.” And things like that. We work together so it’s been interesting…
    Any advice on dealing with these types? It’s like walking on eggshells with people like this.

    1. fposte*

      I think I’d have to know more about the context of the comment and the tone of voice. As stated, I think a distracted “Okay!” and getting back to your own stuff is fine. You don’t have to convince them they’re wrong; you just have to convince yourself not to worry about them.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Does he have any authority over you at all?

      If he says that weird stuff, laugh at him and then do whatever you want…seriously. That’s my response of “Ha you must be joking.”

      If he get mad, then it’s time to tell someone about this kind of behavior because then it’s a concern. But most of the time this is a joke.

      I have made “I live here now.” jokes and we’ve all made “why don’t we get some cots in here so we don’t ever have to leave, we essentially live here anyways.” but nobody actually beds down for the night.

  161. CrookedLily*

    We have a team member Fergus who likes to police other employee’s time away from their desks or in a non-available status for phone calls. Fergus believes that butt should remain in chair outside of lunch and our two 15-minute breaks, and anytime someone is unavailable for any reason, he is taking screenshots of their status and sending them to the team lead Georgina and our manager Jane. Yes, this is a coverage-based job, but realistically, people have their own personal needs that are going to need tending to outside of those three designated time periods. Bathroom breaks, making sure we get enough to drink (since we are talking on the phone all day), taking medications, dealing with kids’ situations, etc. We are all adults and can make responsible decisions in prioritizing between work and our personal needs.

    Georgina has not discouraged Fergus’ “observe and report” behavior, because she is an overbearing micromanager herself and also believes no one should ever leave their desk. She also continues to ignore the fact that some team members need extra time to document their calls and have ADA accommodations allowing them to do so, something which Fergus may not be aware of and which is actually none of his business. Thankfully, Georgina is retiring very soon.

    They are not going to replace Georgina with a new team lead, but instead will be dividing up her duties between several of us more senior team members. So there won’t be any particular one of us “in charge” anymore, other than Jane, our actual manager. She hasn’t said anything about Fergus’ screenshots either, but I honestly don’t know if it’s because she approves of what he’s doing, or because she isn’t seeing them or just ignores them. She is managing more departments than any one person should, and is inundated with emails and has been generally hands off with the day-to-day stuff with our team.

    None of the rest of the team members agree with the whole “treat everyone like children” philosophy. There is a lot of resentment growing among the team over Fergus’ little habit. I would love some advice on how we might be able to tactfully convey to Fergus that he needs to worry about himself, his coworkers are adults, and that policing their time is not his job or his business.

    1. ArtK*

      I would respond each time he tattles. “Fergus, I need you to focus on your job, not what other people are doing.” Don’t accept any “buts” from him. This is the way it is and he needs to keep his nose to his own grindstone.

      1. fposte*

        I think that’s fine if you’re Fergus’s manager, but it’s not clear that CrookedLily will have the status to do that. She’s not even going to be a full team lead (and I’m not clear if Fergus is among the people who will have part of Georgina’s duties and therefore continue to be an equal to CrookedLily). But that does raise the question of just who Fergus will be sending these screenshots to in the future? If it’s a team member, I think a softened version of your script is an excellent response; if it’s Jane, and Jane doesn’t do anything because she doesn’t care, I’d probably let it go. If a screenshot goes to a boss who doesn’t have any interest in looking at it, does it still make a noise? I’d say no.

  162. 653-CXK*

    News and views:

    – I’m off today and next week for my first company-paid vacation in over 18 months. Last year, I was interviewing for a position right near my house (it fell through) but each year, I make it a point to get lunch someplace where I’ve never been, but I’ve heard rave reviews about. I have a doctor’s appointment next week, but the rest of the time I will be free. I’m looking to do some day trips, but it will be nice to take a vacation and get away for awhile.

    – My CFO made the announcement that my former boss is returning to the company and will be my boss again. From what I heard, the job she worked at wasn’t what she expected, and the commute was horrible – but at least she’s coming back on good terms, and the CFO highly values her skills and talents.

  163. Stephanie*

    I am currently serving a Project Manager for an Implementation Project. The issue I am having is that I am doing the work expected (and laid out for me in the implementation documentation). But other people on the Implementation team keep overly praising/thanking me for what I do. It is to the point it is, at times, uncomfortable. I want to just tell them “I am doing my job!” I don’t know if it is because I have never been in this type of management role and have always been the “worker bee,” or what it is. But, I find it really weird to be thanked/praised for just doing what has to be done.

    I know this is not a horrible problem to have. But I just don’t know how to reply and/or make people realize it is not needed. Thoughts?

    1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      I had a job like that! People kept thanking me for the most basic things and I started feeling patronized. Like, “Thank you for coming in today!” on a normal workday, or “Thank you so much for your help!” when someone asked me to grab their stuff off the copier when I went to the front office to get my stuff off the printer.

      Once I was there for awhile, it turned out that it was a horribly low-performing team and that just doing those ordinary things that you’re supposed to do when you have a job, I was massively outperforming my coworkers. Is it possible that everyone else they’ve worked with in your role was difficult to work with and didn’t do the basics of their job?

      1. Kat in VA*

        Are you me? I keep getting thanked – effusively – for things that are the most basic, mundane part of my job. “Thank you so much for scheduling that meeting for me, I really appreciate it!”

        I mean, I don’t know if the person before me really sucked at their job or we have a huge gratitude culture, but it kinda cheapens the thanks to get the same level of appreciation for scheduling a meeting as I do for setting up a huge two day onsite training event that included a plated offsite dinner for over 120 people.

        Then again, the thanks were even more effusive for the latter (as in “mentioned twice in the dinner speech and then hey, Kat, stand up so everyone can give you a standing ovation”), so maybe it’s just a really appreciative company and I should shut up already. :-/

    2. Rey*

      Your reply should be “You’re welcome” and an appropriate conversation shift. Trying to make people realize it is not needed will not work. As relevant, recognize others who worked on that task. You can be uncomfortable on the inside without that changing the social norm of saying Thank You and You’re Welcome. (And it sounds like you’re doing a great job, so Thank Yous are deserved. Thank You is not limited to only unexpected work.)

  164. He who shall not be named (Voldemort)*

    What would boost team morale and engagement most is to NOT be constantly shat on by management.

    How could this be said tactfully? Haha.

    For example: One of our metrics is to keep pending orders below 10 at any time. After a lot of hard work, we brought the metric down to 7.. Yay! Or so we thought. Department-wide email from our manager ccing director said, “How can WE get this metric down to 6?” Cue eyeroll from everyone.

    This metric ebbs and flows.. it went back up to 8, which is still better than our target. Manager says to team, “What are YOU doing to bring our numbers back down?” More grumbles from team about how manager should spend time working on our actual metrics rather than chastising the team.

    1. Gatomon*

      Ah yes, “the beatings will continue until morale improves” style of management. Yick. From my experience, they don’t want any kind of response or change action taken, these types of messages come from the thinking that the problem is solely that the employees aren’t working hard enough. It also comes from the type of manager who doesn’t actually want to manage, so they spend a lot of time and energy doing performative things like sending pointless emails. They think sending a blast to the whole team will build morale because they referred to you collectively, assuming they even care about morale. I honestly wouldn’t waste my energy trying to point out their mistakes if this is typical for your company.

  165. Jaid*

    Between Veterans Day and having a cold, I only worked four hours this week (this morning). Thank goodness for sick leave. And Mucinex.

    Frankly, I would have stayed home, except I couldn’t sleep and I would have had to go to Urgent Care to get a doctor’s note to say that I had a cold.

    I did wear a cute face mask, though. It was pink with monkeys on it, that I ordered off of Amazon. :-)

  166. Shadowbelle*

    What ho, AAM Commentariat:

    If you worked for a company that did the following, what would your thoughts be on that company’s commitment to diversity? Would any of this give you the impression that the company was promoting and favoring religion?

    1. Holds a mandatory department-wide all-day meeting in a church (including speeches by C-suite execs and upper management) even though the company has two on-site auditoriums of its own;
    2. Holds (free) raffles for tickets to various events such as sporting events and concerts, including evangelical concerts and events (but not events for any other religion), and do not provide a way for employees to opt out of receiving the raffle notices;
    3. Puts up monthly posters in central hallway locations showing employees’ birthdays and includes “Jesus” on the December poster;
    4. Announces the deaths of family members of employees in emails that include the phrase “our prayers go out to …” and/or “keep so-and-so in your prayers”, and do not provide a way for employees to opt out of receiving the emails;
    5. Has mandatory “Diversity and Inclusion” training for all employees.

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      The thing is, though, this is all Background Noise to a certain subset that they might honestly not at all be trying to promote or favor religion. They might think they’re being completely fair: for #1, a religious leader didn’t give a speech or have a group prayer or a song praising Jesus (all of which I’ve had sprung on me without warning, outside churches), 2: they had other prizes other than evangelical stuff, 3 “it’s just a joke!”, 4: “but everyone prays! we don’t mean specific ones!”, 5: “we prize diversity”!

      Frankly, this is what diversity training would hopefully address, but I wouldn’t be shocked at all if it didn’t. I’d say their commitment to diversity might be on other axes other than religion. If they DID actually care about other diversity matters, then I’d say there’s absolutely room to push back and say “hey, you guys are being very Christian here, but not everyone is, can we tone down the Christian imperialism religious messaging”. Your place might be two weeks away from hanging Chanuka balls on your Christmas tree in the name of diversity.

      But I can’t judge their “commitment to diversity”. I can say they’re sucking at it. But they might be open to improving and learning.

      Or maybe not. Hard to tell from afar.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        “The thing is, though, this is all Background Noise to a certain subset that they might honestly not at all be trying to promote or favor religion. They might think they’re being completely fair”

        I know, right? I also live in and grew up in the South (USA) and there has historically been a large helping of “We have both kinds of music, Country *and* Western!” in diversity and inclusion. I worked for this one company that genuinely thought they were being inclusive by praying to Jesus in general, rather than using a denominational prayer. (I did not last long at that company.)

        I wonder what would happen if someone put non-Christian holidays onto the calendar.

    2. PolarVortex*

      4 is such an ingrained culture thing that while it would irk me personally, I’d not flag it much in my mind.

      2, well, if they were stuff that was given to them and raffles are optional to put your name in for, probably not world ending for me. Not that different than my work offering up trips to ranches to support specific causes.

      1, maybe if those auditoriums couldn’t fit everyone. And I’d also see if that church often rents out their space for $$. If they often utilize it as an event space, I’d feel differently.

      But hoo boy, 3 would get my dander up. Pretty sure I had an eye twice on 3.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Mandatory diversity and inclusion training is just something companies do to cross it off their list of “we tried tho”, even when the agenda is certainly slanted against said diversity and inclusion.

      It’s up there with “Mandatory Sundays off to attend services!” and yet…not all religions observe Sunday as the end of the week. Bless their hearts.

      1. Shadowbelle*

        Bless their hearts, indeed. I didn’t need to say that this in the American South, did I? I might have added that this is the corporate headquarters of a Fortune 500 company with operations in some 30 countries around the world and about 30 US states.

        The mandatory diversity training (again, an all-day thing) was comprised of information about micro-triggers and some version of the big 5 personality trait labels.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yeah, I figured it was probably in the Bible Belt to say the least.

          And I say this as a white Christian cis woman who collects Bibles and prayer candles. Get out of here with that nonsense. But I also cheered when the Satanists cleared out the cult protesting Pride, so I’m a horse of a different color.

    4. CheeryO*

      I really don’t like the meeting in a church or the religious-themed raffle items (and it’s not just the raffle notice; the tickets shouldn’t be in there in the first place). The Jesus birthday on the calendar bothers me slightly less, given the historical overlap between the religious and secular aspects of Christmas, but it’s not ideal and would absolutely not be allowed in my (government) office.

      Offering generic “prayers” for employees and their families is okay, I think, and it’s something that does get thrown around in my office occasionally. It reads as more of a buzzword for me than anything else. I’d leave it at “thoughts” if it were up to me, though.

      Clearly this is not a company that’s committed to diversity beyond paying it lip service.

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      1. This would be weird, and I would question it. I’m not sure if I’d look at it as favoring or promoting religion, but it would definitely make me question the link between the business and the church.
      2. Yeah, that’s weird.
      3. This is just silly. I would not think of it as a major concern. It’s not the most professional thing in the world, but it’s just cutesy.
      4. This is a pretty generic sentiment. I would also not consider this to be promoting or favoring religion.
      5. This is generally a good thing, unless the D&I training is particularly bad.

      Overall, I think my read on the company would be heavily based on industry & geographic factors. Assuming you’re not in an area that it is heavily evangelical or an industry that’s religion-adjacent, I would consider it a sign that the company leadership isn’t maintaining great boundaries between their personal beliefs and their company operations, and as a queer person I would not be planning on a long career there. I don’t think it comes across as “promoting and favoring religion,” though, so much as it does an assumption that religion must be interesting to a broad swathe of the workforce.

      In 2 and 4, you mentioned a desire to opt out of emails that have anything to do with religion (raffles and “prayers” for employee family losses) even though the focus of the message is not religious. I think it would be weird to ask to be opted out of messages for company raffles or general HR announcements. I do think announcements about deaths in the family are weird and invasive, but if they’re the company culture, they’re the company culture; OldJob did births, marriages, and deaths as companywide announcements. In particular, asking to be opted out of emails simply for mentioning “prayers” I think is a bit precious; no one’s praying at you or asking you to engage in prayer. It’s not-great wording, but fundamentally it’s an expression of sympathy and togetherness, not religiosity.

    6. LuckySophia*

      It could be what you suspect…but I don’t think a company-wide intent on “promoting religion/ignoring diversity” is necessarily at the root of all this. I can think of other possible (and random) reasons:
      1. Offsite is a better way to keep the all-day meeting truly mandatory– a way to avoid people showing up late, leaving early, ducking out multiple times throughout the day to “put out fires at their own desks.” A church is … not the ideal venue, but maybe it was chosen because it’s nearby, or its available at no charge, or some other purely practical reason (Like, it has ADA-accessible restrooms, whereas the Volunteer Fireman’s Social Hall, which was also large enough to host the meeting, does not.)
      2. You’d have to know the source of the free tickets: Does the company have season tickets to sports events and/or a concert hall, and kindly makes those offerings available to employees? If so, it’s not a case of cherry-picking individual events that promote “religiosity”).
      3. Yeah, that’s tone-deaf but– it could be just one individual, who’s tasked with generating the monthly lists, throwing that in based on their individual beliefs —or sense of humor— and it’s not at all representing “the company’s principles and commitments.”
      4. As others have pointed out, this is such a culturally-ingrained stock phrase…I don’t think you can count that as anything but “what many people say when they don’t know what else to say”.
      5. Well, that’s a good thing, generally speaking. It may not be as effective as you’d wish, but that’s a different issue.
      And finally….eh, in most companies, when they send company-wide emails, it’s because they intend for everyone to see them,. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect them to offer you an opt-out on those.

    7. Daisy-dog*

      Only going to comment on #1 – you already said you were in the south. Which has a lot of big churches. The company likely had a reason for making the meeting off-site and picked something that would accommodate the group.

      I know so. many. groups & organizations that meet or do presentations in churches – they view it as community outreach, not as a way to convert individuals. And the groups just get a big, comfortable place to meet. Even my old high school’s graduation has been in a church (public school – very, very large).

    8. emmelemm*

      While I’m sure all of that is annoying (I’m basically an atheist and would find it ever so slightly annoying), it’s so much milder than so many things that have been written in about over the years to AAM that, well, it’s barely worth any “capital” to push back on it.

    9. LilySparrow*

      I’m really curious about the raffle. Since these are presumably tickets to commercial venues that include sports or other concerts, do you get many large commercial concerts of non-christian religious music coming to town?

      I don’t like CCM particularly, but it is an actual Thing in the music industry and therefore there are big concert tours.

      I mean, if there are tickets to a Wiccan rock band available from the same source and they exclude them, that’s being shady. But if they are just offering tickets to whatever is playing …well, that’s what’s playing.

      You also don’t need a way to opt out of companywide emails that you find annoying. You can set up an inbox rule that sorts everything with the word “raffle” or “prayer” in it to go directly to trash. Never have to see it.

      Of course a committment to diversity would preclude playing religious music in the office, or holding group prayers. I am not sure that it would require your employer to maintain multiple versions of the all-staff email list in order to shield you from hearing prayer or religious music mentioned.

  167. Conflicted in Canada*

    Anyone ever quit a job, seeking greener pastures, and later returned to that job? Was it bad when you returned? Were you sorry? I’ve read the advice about how it rarely works out when an employee gives notice and the company offers more money or whatever and how that’s unlikely to work out long term. Wondering if anyone’s gone back to a job later (a few years later).

    Thanks!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yes. I quit my job of over 10 years and came crawling back once. Then the second time I cut the cord and they were like “Nooooooooooooooo, baby come baaaaaaaaaaack.” and reeled me back in on a part time gig setup after I talked it out with them. I basically cleaned out my office and then appeared back a week later in the first scenario.

      So not long term like you’re asking. It was all fine for me in those cases.

      I have had people leave our place of employment for other options and come back years later. It’s worked out well for them as well! It depends on how you leave and your company culture. We’re pretty open with people coming back as long as they were good workers/people. If people aren’t going “Phew good riddance” in the back of their heads or whatever, or there wasn’t some kind of underlying personality issue involved, I wouldn’t sweat it.

    2. Anonymeuse*

      My spouse (who works for the Canadian government) has done this with what was supposed to be a longer term assignment, and he’s had some of his direct reports do it on the team he manages. I think it just comes down to why you left in the first place. With his direct reports, I think they were generally trying to move up the ladder, then once they left they realized that their new manager was crappy or the work was crappy or, in one case, the guy ran into the same issues at his new department (the issue was that he was not a great employee and wasn’t ready to advance, which he’d been told but didn’t believe, but then it turns out a new manager had similar views about his work).

      For my spouse, he left for an acting promotion but had been happy at his other team, then the new team was kind of underwhelming. When he got the opportunity to go back early, everyone was happy about it.

    3. JustaTech*

      Personally, no, but there was a guy at my current job who was good at his work, quit, when somewhere else, came back, quit again, went to work somewhere else, came back *again*, then quit again.

      I saw him in the office last week. He swears he isn’t coming back.

      (It’s a high-stress position with skills that are easily transferred and in high demand, but he has so much institutional knowledge!)

      Each time has been multi-year stays. No idea about pay, but I think he was manager-level each time.

    4. CAA*

      I’ve been on the other side of this quite a few times. If someone I was sorry to lose wants to come back, I always want to rehire them. Of course it depends on whether we have an opening or not, but if we do, I welcome them with open arms! These people are great for rentention because everyone else wants to know why they’re back and gets to hear about how bad things were in the other job, and what a mistake it was to leave, and how they didn’t realize how good they had it here. Also, they don’t need training, which is a big plus in a job that can take over 6 months for someone to reach maximum productivity.

      I’ve also been approached by a couple of people I wasn’t that sorry to lose, and by one person who really flamed out and burned bridges when he left. They did not get welcomed back and were just told “sorry, but we don’t have any openings that would be a good fit for you.”

    5. Ron McDon*

      I’ve done this with two jobs – job 1 I left to go and work somewhere I got school holidays off, job 2 I left when I had my second child.

      Both jobs asked me to go back a couple of years after I left, to cover long term staff absence.

      Going back to job 1 was awful and I left before the date we’d agreed at the start – there was a new manager there, who was an extreme micro manager and just didn’t seem to like me.

      Job 2 was much better and I enjoyed going back, but wouldn’t have wanted to take a permanent position there again – it felt too much like going backwards and history repeating itself,

      As others have said, it depends on the reason you left in the first place. I expected things to be the same as when I was there the first time around, but of course things had changed and that was a bit weird.

      I probably wouldn’t go back to a previous job now, it seems like a backwards step.

    6. Susan K*

      I haven’t done it myself, but I’ve had a few coworkers who did. I thought it would be weird and awkward for them, but really, after a little while, it was kind of like they never left.

  168. Jem*

    I have reason to believe I was turned down for a promotion because of my perceived age (I look much younger than I am). I’m about to leave this company for a new job. Is there anything I can say in my exit interview that will shed light on this possible managerial issue?

    1. ArtK*

      Exit interviews are rarely useful in my experience. What would you want to accomplish by highlighting a suspicion? I would just mention “lack of promotion opportunities” and leave it at that.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      Honestly, if that is the case, then there’s probably nothing that will change it. If they will not consider the contribution that you have made to the company and your experience/education, then you might as well forget this company exists.

    3. WellRed*

      I seriously doubt it’s your actual age, more likely a perception that you don’t have the skills or experience, so this is definitely not something to bring up.

    4. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I doubt if it’s because of your perceived age, because TPTB at your company know your age. If you are in the USA, didn’t you have to prove that you’re authorized to work in the USA by showing them your passport or birth certificate or green card when you started working there? If you are not in the USA, did you have to fill out forms to get health insurance that would show your date of birth?

  169. Cg1254t*

    I was wondering if anyone could give me advice on how to be less direct. I’m currently a business major student and work as a dishwasher. I’ve been told by my manager’s boss that I’m ‘direct’ and ‘abrasive’ and an example they gave to my manager was when they came to talk about break lengths I asked, “Why do you ask? Here’s when I typically take my breaks at ____”. Frankly, I disagree with many of the decisions my manager’s boss makes and feel they are inefficient and borderline rude at times.
    Outside of work, I’ve been told my directness is refreshing. My family is from a non-American culture (Scandinavian) so I think that is part of why. My work quality is excellent (I’ve been told so) and I do my best to help out with anything needed, even if it isn’t directly my job. My coworkers like me and have asked for my help/know I will help them out.

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      Yeah, saying “why do you ask?” in response to a pretty normal question is gonna come off as really really abrasive. They ask because they’re your manager and they need to know the info, it’s not an absurd question for them to ask.

      To be less abrasive, if someone asks you a routine question about your work and schedule, just answer it, don’t call into question their motives. You can be polite to people without respecting them or thinking they’re any good at their jobs.

    2. CheeryO*

      Are you a woman, by any chance? I sort of cringe when I hear that someone is being called abrasive, because I immediately assume that it’s a woman who is being assertive, not abrasive.

      Anyway, I think this is really hard to give advice on without hearing you in person. There’s a chance that it could be your tone. The same direct statement can come off very differently depending on whether your tone is warm or cold/defensive. For your example, starting with “Why do you ask?” and not with the answer to the question could easily read as abrasive, especially if the “Why do you ask” is less genuine curiosity and more defensiveness.

      Also, I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you might have to leave the business major at the door when you go to work. I’m not sure if you’re actually vocal about your disagreements with your boss’s boss, but as a dishwasher, you don’t really have the standing to be pointing out inefficiencies or pushing back on decisions. They just want you to do your job without making a fuss.

      1. Cg1254t*

        I mentioned my major because I figure diplomacy is a skill i’ll especially need in the future. And I did tell them what my break times were, I just wanted to know if it was an issue with me or if it was an issue others had to do. And yes, I am a woman

    3. Wishing You Well*

      It is useful to say “why do you ask” when given a single frame-of-reference question, but your tone and facial expression count toward your perceived attitude. If you feel your grand-boss’ decisions are dumb, you might be showing that attitude. You’ll have to decide for yourself if you need to change and what changes to make, if any.
      Best of Luck.

    4. Antilles*

      Few comments:
      1.) When someone asks a perfectly normal work-related question, “why do you ask” is a pretty strong response. Your boss doesn’t need a reason to ask when you take your breaks. Unless your facial expression and tone are 10000% politeness and genuine inquiry, many people will be caught off guard.
      2.) There’s a really fine line between “direct” and “rude”. Your friends might find your bluntness refreshing, but your boss clearly does not, so you probably need to tone it down a little at work. One way to work on this might be to mentally ask yourself “is this directness going to be helpful to anyone?” and “is the person going to actually listen?” – no sense in being blunt and direct with them if they’re not going to listen to you anyways.
      3.) Disagreeing with your manager’s boss on efficiency isn’t really your role as a dishwasher. In the privacy of your own head and on your couch at home, you can think whatever you want…but when it comes to dealing with him, all he probably wants to hear from a student employee is “Yes sir, these dishes will be washed on time, sir”.

      1. Cg1254t*

        Thank you for the help, as well as everybody else who replied. Your comments helped me think how to move going forward.

    5. LilySparrow*

      If you want to ask whether the boss has issues with your break time, a more diplomatic way to frame it would be to first give the info, and then ask “is there anything I should change about that?” or “Is there anything I should be aware of?”

      To put “why do you ask” up front sounds like you are saying “that’s none of your business.” That is how the question is typically used – to deflect and push back on the person asking.

      If you want a model of a powerful woman being extremely forthright without being rude at all (even under provocation), go listen to Ambassador Yovanovich’s testimony in Congress today.

  170. Violet Newstead*

    My company recently underwent a major re-organization, letting go ~40% of the company. I’d like to reach out to colleagues who lost their jobs to exchange personal contact info and to let them know that they can count on me for references, etc.

    Any suggestions on how to phrase this so it’s not condescending or rubbing it in that I have a job and they don’t?

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      As someone who was in the position of being laid off a few years back, I would not take it as condescending or rubbing it in at all. Just start of with saying, “Sorry, that was a bum rap you got” (or something like that) and then say something like, “Seriously, I would be more than happy if you need a reference.”

      Don’t worry too much about offending anyone. You would have to really be snobbish to offend someone.

  171. The Babiest Babyface*

    Do employers care about honors societies? I got inducted into a national one today, and the ceremony was really nice and they had baked brie so it was at least worth the time that took, but is this something to slap on the bottom of my resume? For that matter, does anyone actually care about my extracurriculars? I heard everyone talking about putting on that they were in student government or in the sga, but I don’t know how much people actually care.

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      Is it academic honors? If you’re still in school or fresh out of it, that can be helpful, but after that, or if it’s not academic honors, I don’t care.

      Then again, I think putting that you’re an Eagle Scout on your resume as an adult is completely out of place, but other people love it, so *shrug* YMMV.

    2. CheeryO*

      Sure, those can all give you a leg up when you’re in high school and applying for food service jobs and the like. I talked about babysitting in my interview for my first job. Pretty much anything that shows that you’re responsible and a go-getter is fair game.

    3. BadWolf*

      Is it High School? Then it’s good for college and scholarships. If it’s college, it could be helpful for your first job and internships (and maybe scholarships while in college).

    4. Anongradstudent*

      I’d say it depends. Phi Beta Kappa is a well-recognized honor society and people put some stock into that. If you’re applying to research-focused positions, having experience from a relevant honor society might be an interesting plus, but definitely not anything that would make or break your application.

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      If you’re fairly recently out of college and it doesn’t take away from work achievements, sure, leave it on there. I once had a boss who was just tickled pink about me winning a departmental award from my college major, because she had also studied that major – like, to the point that she had included it in the intro email she sent to the rest of the team when I started working. She was an outlier (and not a good boss in a lot of ways), but it pretty much will be neutral at worst or slightly positive at best.

  172. Dolores Abernathy*

    How often do y’all go on vacations?
    I’m in my first professional job–I worked for about nine months as an intern, and then got hired full time after I graduated a few months over a year ago–and we get roughly 3.5 weeks of PTO a year, plus extra earned when working overtime in the summer (our busy season). I took a week off in early October–not for any particular occasion, just a trip with a friend to a place I’d always wanted to go.
    I’m considering taking a Friday and Monday off in January for my birthday. I need at least two days to travel (the city I’m thinking of going to is a full day’s drive from where I am now), so I thought that would be the least impact. But is it too soon to be taking off again? (Late fall/winter is the best time for any extended time off, as during the summer we pretty much have to work 6 days a week.)

    1. Buttons*

      It isn’t too soon at all. You are now a full time employee and can use your PTO as you want and when you want, unless it is a company that specifically says at X time of year (or months) no one can take off.
      My husband isn’t allowed to take any vacation around certain holidays because it is a high volume time for his company.
      Don’t feel bad! If it is going to cause a problem, your manager will let you know.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      I don’t really consider long weekends as taking time off really. But even if you were taking the entire week, that is fine! Do you have a good rapport with your manager? You can talk to her about how others take time off and if she has any expectations around timing.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      You’re fine. Take your trip. The only concern I’d have for you is if your PTO includes both sick and vacation time to be sure to save some PTO to have available for sick days that crop up (both because you want to be able to take them, and because you *might* be out of step with your org’s vacation practices if you’re using all of your PTO on vacation rather than sick).

      To answer your question, I tend to take two significant chunks of time off in a year. One week (or perhaps a week and a couple of extra days) in the summer or fall, and a week at Christmas. I have combined sick and vacation PTO, so I try to keep 3+ weeks of PTO banked (to be used for a future potential extended sick leave) and use the rest on sick days and random days off (I take my birthday off; I take the day after an annual party that my husband and I host off, etc.)

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      this calendar year, I have done… five days (two in one week and three in the following) in early February, five days (M-F) in mid-April, three days (Th-F-M) in mid-May, four days (W-Th-F-M) in early July, five days (M-F) in early September, three days (W-F) in early October, and two days (M-T) in late October. I also have a long weekend coming up over Thanksgiving (Th-F-M). For the beginning of the year, I’m looking at three days in late January and a week in late March. So, I mean, I think you’re fine. Heh.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you have PTO available, it’s never too early to use it. We front load ours, after someone passes probationary period, it’s there for the taking. I’ve had people use it within 3-6 months of starting. A long weekend is the easiest thing to accommodate ever. We have people take an entire week off at a time most of the time. Two weeks at a time isn’t unusual.

      You don’t need a reason to go on vacation. You don’t need to justify it. A healthy workplace wants you to use that time and are happy to have you use it, just make sure you give the appropriate amount of time notice. We ask for 2 weeks heads up for approval, some places want a month if scheduling shifting is needed.

      You’re doing well right now just noticing the busy season and that it’s a good time to take off. That’s crucial. Think about it this way, you may get sick and need to take a long weekend to recover. Nobody is gonna die without you there unless you’re the only one who can do life saving surgeries or you produce some kind of magical pills that cure things, you know what I mean?

      I personally take all long weekends in the end but I’m a workaholic. Do what your heart wants in that respect.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Nah, you’re fine. Go ahead and book. One time, very early in my career, I took off a week in February for an international trip and then was asked to travel somewhere else as a (paid!) chaperone in late March for four days. I had the same concerns you did, and my trips were much closer together, but I took ’em and it was just fine.

      As a general rule, I go on one week-long vacation every year (usually in the summer) and a few days here and there for family visits, long weekends, holidays, etc. Our company closes for the week between Christmas and New Year, so we try to go away for that– this year I will be working for one day while we’re gone. This year I took a few days off to go away and then a few days off to move, so very little actual “vacation”, and it has certainly taken its toll. So take the time if you have it!

    7. Susan K*

      You’re totally fine! At most jobs, you can distribute your PTO as you wish, other than possibly some restrictions on busy periods and the number of people who can be off at the same time.

      I like to save my vacation days until later in the year just in case something comes up. Every year, I wait too long to start using my vacation days and end up struggling to use them all before the end of the year. I don’t really “go on vacation.” I usually travel to visit family for a week around Christmastime, and other than that, I staycation. I get four weeks of vacation, and this year, I am taking a full week off in November and a full week off in December, and the rest of my vacation days one at a time to make long weekends.

  173. That's The Tweet*

    Is there any situation in which it is better to tell your boss you’re applying elsewhere within the organization?

    I didn’t tell my boss I was applying around and he flipped out on me when he found out I was applying elsewhere internally(someone snitched on me.) But my coworker told me she did the opposite: She let the boss know when she applied and the boss had a lukewarm response about it. Now she runs the risk of things getting awkward if she doesn’t get the job. Like, the boss will always know she wanted to leave and probably will keep looking for other opportunities. It feels like a double-edged sword and I’m not sure if there is any way to win out in this situation.

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      It is best to tell them. It is better for them to hear it from you as opposed to someone else.

    2. Buttons*

      It is really about the culture within the company and your relationship with your manager. Within my company, it is celebrated and encouraged for people to work in multiple business units/departments/locations, even if it is a lateral move. The more exposure an employee has to multiple areas of the business the more beneficial they are to the company.
      I always recommend telling a manager you would like to move and why, unless they will pull the short-sighted position of “we can’t lose you!” and become a roadblock for your advancement or change. They could be an advocate for you, and they could give you insight into that department/role that you may not have.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      Definitely tell your manager about internal applications before you apply.

      Internal applications are *very* different than external applications. It’s an indicator that you like the company and want to grow within. Not getting the job is still disappointing, but applying did not outright mean: “I hate doing *this* job with every fiber of my being and I can’t stand you as a manager.” It means that you just wanted to try something new and learn as well as you believe you can be as asset to the company elsewhere.

      Ideally, management should have conversations with their team about their career goals and supporting them.

    4. Susan K*

      It depends on how things are done at your company, but I’m guessing it’s unlikely that it’s a secret when you apply for an internal job. At my old job, company policy was that anyone less than a year into his or her current job had to get permission from his or her manager to apply for an internal posting. Even if there’s no such policy (or it doesn’t apply to you), there’s a very good chance the hiring manager will ask your current manager about you, and it’s better to tell him yourself than have him find out from someone else.

  174. I don't like pranks*

    So, this just happened:

    I share an office space with two other people, and our office is in the same hallway as a bunch of other office all with roommates. We all work on the same team and perform different functions for the same group of in-house clients.

    Sherrie, from another office, stopped by and said, “Hey I’m going over to building X, does anyone want to come or need anything?” This is a semi-regular offer among all team members. Not daily, but 3-4x a week usually. One of my roommates Bob said, “sure I’ll come,” and the other roommate Nate said, “Hey can you pick me up a muffin?” and gave Sherrie a $20. I said, “no thanks I’m good” and went back to my work. Right after that Nate left to the copy room or bathroom or something, and Sherrie snuck back in with a muffin she happened to have in her office. She put the muffin on Nate’s desk and reached around me to put his $20 under my keyboard (yes while I was mid-work). She said, “Hang on to this and don’t tell Nate.” and before I even stopped to think about what she was doing, I said, “Nope I’m not gonna play whatever this is,” and slipped it out from my keyboard and handed it back to her. She said “fine, I’ll just hide it over here,” and put it under a coffee mug on Bob’s desk. Said, “look it’s over here.” and I just said, “Nope, I’m not in it.” Then she and Bob left. They’re still gone, Nate came back and found the left muffin. The $20 is still under the mug. Sherrie and Bob haven’t even been gone long enough to make it to building X.

    Sherrie has a tendency to play little pranks that she thinks are funny. Yesterday she was carrying around a large plastic cockroach asking everyone “does this belong to you?” trying to get a rise out of folks. I just made a gross face and went back to my work. A while back, she was gifted some bitter chocolate and didn’t like it, and went around offering some to everyone pretending it was just regular chocolate. I did actually like it but she thought it was HILARIOUS.

    Anyway, I guess I don’t really have a question, just thought I would share this silly story.

    1. MissBliss*

      I don’t… Understand what this prank is. At first I thought Sherrie was stealing his $20 and giving him an old muffin, but I’m not sure. Did she bring him an actual muffin? What happened to the $20? What is Sherrie up to?!

      1. I don't like pranks*

        Yeah I don’t really know either. I think she was pretending to steal the $20 by hiding it? And I didn’t want any part of that either! Bob and Nate and I live in close quarters and we really need to respect each other’s space, privacy, and belongings.

      2. Admin of Sys*

        Maybe the theory is that Nate will wonder how Sherrie made the muffin transport itself to his desk before they got back? And then ask Sherrie how she did it and for his change, and Sherrie will, idk, claim the money teleported as well? The ‘hiding the money’ makes me think ‘magic trick’, I think. (because I assume Nate will want change, so she’d end up giving him the entire $20 back) I do hope the muffin is relatively fresh though, because even if I thought the above idea was amusing, I’d be pissed if I asked someone to grab me a muffin and they gave me one that’d been sitting around for a day or two.

  175. Holiday*

    If a holiday falls during a two week notice, how does your company handle that? The scenario is that I would give my notice on the 25th and my last day would be December 6th. My handbook says that PTO cannot be used during a two week notice but it says nothing about holidays. The office is closed for thanksgiving, which would fall during my two weeks.

    1. CheeryO*

      There’s a question on this upthread with a bunch of responses! Personally, I’d give 10 business days’ notice (so your last day would be pushed out to the 9th or 10th depending on if you get one or two days off at Thanksgiving), but I don’t think it’s horrible to only give the two weeks’ notice, assuming you don’t have massive amounts of documentation or file cleanup to do.

    2. Daisy-dog*

      It would nice if you could extend your notice period by an additional 2 days to give a full 10 working days of notice, but it depends on your role and how much wrap-up you will need to do before your departure. Overall, it may not matter, but some companies may not be happy with it. Additionally, if a lot of your team (like those that will be taking over your duties) are out that week, that may also be considered a problem. Can’t say without knowing your role, how much is needed to be done, and what the other standards are!

    3. CAA*

      We pay holiday pay if there’s a regularly scheduled holiday during the notice period. If the holiday falls on the last day of the notice period, then you would not get paid for it and your official termination date becomes the last workday prior to the holiday.

  176. Where O Where is Hellmouth?*

    Just shouting out and hoping that Formerly Worked on a Hellmouth is busy with the new job and that all is well! Have a great weekend.

  177. AnotherAlison*

    The second way is how it is normally done. If you are proactive about telling your current boss, then you can manage the conversation, too, and it’s possible your coworker did a poor job with that, which is why the boss was lukewarm. It’s always good to say things like you enjoy your current job, but this new job is something you’ve always wanted to do, etc. I’ve done it both ways, and when I didn’t tell my current boss, the hiring manager for the new role did.

  178. Daydreaming Admin Assistant*

    I’m thinking of applying to a bunch of office temp agencies to find work during a stint abroad (less than a year). I’ve never worked as a temp before. How can I maximize my chances of getting my first placement quickly? What are some tips for successful temping? Thanks in advance!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The key with temping and dealing with agencies is that you cannot just send them your resume and wait until they “Get in touch” with you. They will not get in touch with you most likely. You need to really reach out and personally speak to people and get the ball rolling like that.

      You say abroad though, which makes me curious as to where you’re going and if you’re going to legally be allowed to work? Temp agencies who are good ones that you want to work with won’t fudge rules about work authorizations. Not the same way as individuals employers who may be okay with doing shady stuff.

      1. Daydreaming Admin Assistant*

        OK, thanks for the tip! I was thinking of sending each agency an email with an “elevator pitch” of sorts. Would that work?

        I have a valid work visa for the country I’m thinking of moving to, so I’m good there. (Long story short, I got a 2-year UK working holiday visa last year, but a combination of insecurity, golden handcuffs and Brexit kept me from actually moving there at the start of the visa period, which will expire in September of next year. I regret not going at the start of the visa period or at least sooner than now, but there’s no way to renew/defer it now, so I’m thinking of just saying “f**k it” and trying to live there for a short time — better than nothing. I don’t care what I do there but I’m worried about being able to find work when I can’t work there for very long, hence why I’m looking at temping primarily.)

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh good! Yeah I just wanted to mention the visa because work visas are my worst enemy right now…and it’s not even for me. Raaaawrrrrr. /rant.

          If the temp agencies work the same way over there, then in reality you should send them your details and information. Give it a couple of days or so to see if there’s any news. SOMETIMES they’ll reach out and in other countries they certainly might! But then if you don’t hear anything, you should call and check in.

          I like to remind people that these agencies are a hybrid verses simply an “employer”. They are dealing you as a commodity, so you’re also trying to get them to buy into you as a worthwhile candidate to send to their clients. So the sort of “don’t email too much, don’t call them ever, don’t push yourself on them, no gumption” kind of rule we play by with direct employers are pretty much pushed to the side.

          They get a lot of resumes in that “Yawn, have to send out resumes today, might as well send it out to all these agencies.” So they can be hard to crack into in that sense.

          Even my emails were unanswered when I was dipping a toe into that pond to see if it was a way to get to the new city I was moving to a few years ago.

          So start out with the email and give it a little bit but don’t be afraid to get in there and really do a hard sale.

          1. Daydreaming Admin Assistant*

            Thank you so much for this advice! I definitely would have played it too timidly without all this context. :)

  179. Hedgehug*

    I work with volunteers, and one of them needs to use their personal cell phone because the office they use doesn’t have a working phone. I want him to be given a reimbursement cheque for the year. What is a fair amount? How to calculate this?

    1. Zona the Great*

      Hmmm maybe ask him to provide an average percentage of time he uses his phone for your agency vs. his own life. I would guess it’s about 5-10% depending on his role there. Then you should find an average market rate for cell service in your area and cut a check of 5-10%. If $50/month, give him 10% of $600, for example.

      1. Hedgehug*

        Thanks! That probably works out to about 1 month of his cell phone bill paid back to him, which is probably fair. He’s not here all day everyday, so 1 month covered seems good but I’ll double check to make sure he’s compensated fairly. Thanks again!

    2. MMB*

      If you wanted to do a complete reimbursement they could probably pull up an itemized copy of their phone usage online. You’d have the exact number of minutes and amount charged.

      1. Natalie*

        Most contract cell plans are unlimited talk/text these days, so they’re not going to list a dollar figure next to each call.

        1. MMB*

          I have an unlimited plan that still breaks down every call. Take the total dollars for the unlimited portion of the plan divide by the number of minutes used each month for the average per minute cost each month, average all 12 months and the amount would be a pretty fair approximation.

          1. Hedgehug*

            Thank MMB and Natalie! I will probably go with Zona’s suggestion. I don’t know if my volunteer would be able to pick out the phone numbers on the bill, so it is probably easier to just guess at how many calls he makes when he’s here.

  180. Vertigo*

    How do I express that I don’t want a co-worker who’s been here less than I have to get exposed to higher level tasks before/at the same time as me? For context, I’ve been working at my current job for three years, and have had a mix of admin and project work, and in the last two years have made it clear that I want to transition to be more involved in projects (with mixed results). A year ago we hired another admin person who was supposed to give me a bit of leeway, but at some point in the last few months she basically took over duties on a project that I was already assisting with (the original person heading the project left and the new person basically came in with no context because we like to pretend there’s no heirarchy). I’ve still been able to contribute to some parts of it, but now that it’s entering its final stage, the producer is talking about ‘i want to bring so-and-so in because i think it’d be good for her to see post-producing and the post-production process’, and it’s like, hey! That’s the kind of mentorship and opportunity that I’ve constantly had to fight my way to get after three years! Get in line!

    How do I express that I really want my learning to be a priority too in a way that 1) doesn’t sound like I’m hoarding tasks like a dragon, 2) doesn’t sound like i’m dumping on my coworker, and 3) doesn’t betray the general bitterness I have about my boss, how this company is run, and how I feel taken for granted?

    1. fposte*

      Ouch; that’s gotta smart. Unfortunately, the person here to deal with isn’t the co-worker but the boss that you don’t like. I don’t know if there’s room there, but maybe you could try talking to them with an “I’m seeing that there’s more of the kind of opportunities available that I’ve been asking for. To be honest, I noticed them when Jane was being offered them even though I’m the one who asked for them–is there a way to make sure I’m looped in in these when they come up in future? Or is there a job-based reason why you’re thinking it makes more sense for Jane, and if so, can we talk about what my future and growth here would look like?” Unfortunately it might be significant that they’re thinking of her and not you, so you’d want to keep alert to the possibility that this is a sign about your growth there and not something a conversation will fix, but it still might get you a little more access.

      1. Vertigo*

        Yeahhh I have had many talks with my boss about many issues like this – he’s the type of person who thinks wanting to be a good boss and handle things well is the same thing as actually doing it, so I’d be beating a dead horse that was never really alive in the first place.

        I do want to talk to the producer though since my boss doesn’t really have concrete oversight on who helps with whose projects, I have a decent relationship with the producer, and know that unlike my boss, she actually does listen. I just don’t know how to phrase it without sounding selfish, because there’s no reason for her to have really known any of this since she’s only been here for like, 4 months.

        1. valentine*

          If your boss is the one who said you could do other stuff when they hired a new admin, it’s worth saying that’s not how it’s panned out and ask him to back you on telling the producer you’re first in line. Does the other admin have more contact with her? If you’ve only been relying on your boss to pass it on, can you ask the producer or others for the opportunities you want?

          If the admin duties are so vital, why are both of you suddenly able to do projects when you, alone, weren’t? It seems like they don’t want to help you advance, so transferring or leaving might be your best bet. Meanwhile, don’t let them make you a rung on the other admin’s ladder.

          It seems they don’t want to

    2. LilySparrow*

      Leave your coworker out of it, and don’t contribute to a narrative that you are in competition with her.

      Go to the producer and say pretty close to the same things you wrote but with a positive perspective:

      “Hey, I was really excited to see you creating opportunities for us admins to participate in different aspects of the process. You wouldn’t be privy to this, but I’ve been actively seeking this kind of opportunity and mentorship for a few years now. I really priotitize my learning in the field, and am trying to transition into more project work.

      What tasks do you think I could help with in the next phase of the project?”

  181. Smartcookie*

    My CEO recently stepped down (in good standing). He’s going to take time off to spend with family while he looks for a new project/role.

    Would it be bad form if I reached out to him personally to express my interest in working for him (assuming any positions are available) when he gets to where he’s going?

    If so, what would be the best way to express that to him? And would I be potentially making a career limiting move at my current company?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If he’s in good standing, that means that he’s still in with your leadership now. Do you fear them finding out that you’d be willing to leave? That’s a real risk by giving him this information.

      1. Smartcookie*

        Yes that’s my concern. He said he’d “take care of me” when he was leaving… not entirely sure what that meant – but he will remain an advisor to the board for the forseeable future.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Taking care of you sounds like he’d be willing to give you references at very least even though he’s not acting CEO anymore, so that’s a good sign!

          I would go with the plans below. Keep looped in with him and let him find himself somewhere first. Since you want him to land on his feet first anyways. He’s not in a position to do much and the information may get lost in his memory because of all the balls in the air right now.

    2. CAA*

      Assuming you’ve already said good bye and good wishes, then wait until he gets to where he’s going before you contact him about a position. When you do, just say something like “I saw that you landed at xxx. Congrats on the new role! I’d love to work with you again someday, and I hope you’ll keep me in mind if you have any relevant openings in the future.”

    3. RandomPoster*

      Do you have a close relationship with him? Or more of a separated one where you worked several layers below him in the hierarchy?

      If it was a close one I’d just reach out expressing interest in staying in touch, and telling him to let you know where you end up. And maybe something generic like “I hope our paths cross again someday, I really enjoyed working with you”. I wouldn’t outright express interest in him getting you a new job when he doesn’t have one lined up.

      1. Smartcookie*

        Actually now that you say that it seems very self interested to ask him to hire me when he doesn’t even know where he’ll be himself yet, so I like this approach. Thank you!

  182. Stuck In A Crazy Job*

    I know this is too late for an answer, but should I go back to school for HR or is it all hoping you can network yourself into a job?
    Background: I work in social services now and am looking for a way out

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would look at HR openings to see what they are all seemingly requiring.

      I just saw someone without HR background or HR schooling get a job doing HR work. So it may not be necessary. Look around and get those feelers wet before you invest in schooling. It depends also how far up the ladder you want to get, if you dream of being say an HR manger one day or something big scale, then schooling is a different kettle of fish.

      Get in there and try it out at the bottle though before investing. You are going to have to start there anyways most likely.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          What are you looking for when you’re looking for roles? What titles are you using?

          Can you look for an assistant position within HR?

          The experience is going to be a hurdle even with a degree! Experience is just about always preferred and often listed as required but meh, I’d still try it out if you’re willing to possibly throw your hats into rings where they’re just brushed away. You never know…

          Depends on your area. Around here it’s so hard to find people lots of people are going to sniff around more so with those without experience because their pools are so dry. I will always vote “it’s worth a shot” because it’s your time, you can spend it the way you want. Worse thing that happens people auto-reject you. You won’t end up on a blacklist or anything, you won’t be memorable in a bad way unless you’re going to try one of those GUMPTION! tactics like sending your resume directly to the CEO with a homemade cake from a recipe that you got from their mother.

    2. Kiwiii*

      Maybe start applying to social services-related HR positions and see if anyone will bite? Having the background might be enough of a conduit. (and then if you wanna run far away from social services in a year or two, you’ll have that HR experience)

    3. Daisy-dog*

      Try Office Manager positions. It’s likely less money, but many of those positions involve 75% HR tasks.

      However, it is also beneficial to get some formal schooling in HR. Depending on the size of the company and who you work with, you may get very little on the job training and just have to learn as you go.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I wouldn’t worry about it being less money.

        The spectrum for Office Manager’s salaries is so wildly off because of people using that title for receptionist sort of roles.

        Be very particular about these postings and read the descriptions with a fine tooth comb. You’ll often need to have accounting experience as well if you’re going to get a OM job that includes HR duties. You get paid more for the more you do, if they don’t want to pay you more, they are bad-news and should be avoided always.

      2. stuckinacrazyjob*

        The stress level may be worth the paycut and it probably isn’t much of a paycut. (I make less than 40k a year)

        1. Daisy-dog*

          Sadly, to find a job that will treat their Office Manager or HR Assistant right might take a little while. Can you start temping in the meantime to get out of the crazy?

          As Becky said, you’ll want to thoroughly read the job descriptions to ensure that it is a job that you want to do. And then you’ll want to ask a lot of questions in the interview to ensure you’re not running into a different kind of crazy.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You should look into general office roles and assistant positions within different departments to get out of that.

          Also if you do find yourself enjoying and excelling in office management, if you were to go that jill-of-all trades kind of way, you should be looking at a pay increase in the end. It’ll take a bit but you really won’t be taking that much of a pay cut if you’re under 40k currently.

          There’s a lot more room to grow depending on the organizations you cater to.

    4. Just a thought*

      To Stuck in a Crazy Job – I’ve worked in Social Services for 15 years, and although I have no idea what your current job is, I’m wondering if there are other types of Social Service job paths that could be a better fit than your current one? After over a decade working for nonprofits, I started working for county gov’t and found way more opportunities for promotion and variety of jobs. And better pay, too!

      1. stuckinacrazyjob*

        Right now, I’m counseling children/making their dentist appointments/transporting them/writing treatment plans/writing session notes/ going to court with them. I really get the feeling that this is three people’s job, and I’m getting overwhelmed because even on days I work 12 hours I haven’t gotten everything done or forgotten something. I’ve worked here for about 6 months. I used to be on a team of five, but now I’m on a team of two, and my grandboss (who I liked) has also left.

        1. Just a thought*

          I’ve worked in lot of different social service positions (case management, housing, etc.) that had much better work/life balance than that! I can’t tell whether you’re looking for a way out of social services or a way out of *this* job, but if the latter, then consider a different employer in the same field. I recommend looking up jobs in local gov’t (county, state, or city).

  183. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I got another “Shame on them” news blast about people caught scamming workers comp.

    A man who harvested and sold oysters while claiming he was too disabled to work has been sentenced to repay the state more than $32,000 and serve two months in custody. [Also 2 years probation]

    They found him due to an “tip” from some anon saying that he was working for his wife’s shellfish company.

    Yikes. Y’all don’t fake work place injuries, they will get you =( There are eyes EVERYWHERE.

  184. Friday Funday*

    I have the opportunity to sit in on interviews for candidates that, if hired, will become my boss. What are some great questions to ask to determine whether they’d make a good boss?

  185. Lavender Beds*

    How can you politely and professionally articulate that you left your last job due to racism? But in the case that you are part of a race getting the benefits?

    Started a new small (roughly 60 people) company three months ago that is owned by a Japanese-American CEO, employees mostly Japanese/Japanese-American and does most of its business with other Japanese-American clients. I’m also Japanese-American but am very Americanized due to my upbringing, so I never really socialized with other Japanese-Americans who were recent immigrants or had deeper roots back in Japan. But I am nice and friendly, so I’m getting along well enough with my new all Japanese-American team. But, due to being more Americanized, I find myself socializing more often with the handful of non-Japanese employees in my office because literally all the Japanese-Americans like to socialize with themselves and speak Japanese to each other 80% of the time in the office.

    So I’ve been noticing small episodes of discrimination from the Japanese employees and board towards the people of color. And now I’ve heard from two other women of color that they do face racism from the Japanese employees, such as being strictly monitored for breaks (while no one cares about my breaks nor my team’s) or being passed on for promotions.

    As a liberal from a true-blue state, I hate this so much. But I need this job to pay my bills since I’m a recent college grad with a bad job history (job hopping due to mental health issues that are now being treated). But if I wanted to move on in say 6 months, how can I explain to my interviewer that I had to leave early because I can’t support a company that has such blatant racism and discrimination?

    1. Daydreaming Admin Assistant*

      Do you really have to give that specific/honest of a reason? Why not just say you couldn’t pass up X opportunity at the new company because it seems like the next logical step in your career, or whatever people usually say to avoid badmouthing past employers?

    2. Rey*

      I think you could say that the work culture wasn’t a great fit for you. I wouldn’t get into racism and discrimination in a work interview, because they are looking for a bland response and they may worry about whether you’re side of the story is right, etc. I’ll add two links of examples Allison’s given in the past.

        1. Lavender Beds*

          I’m worried about what to say if the interviewer asks for me to explain further about what made the work culture not a great fit for me… I’ve been asked before to elaborate but I don’t want to go on a rant.

          1. OtterB*

            Maybe say the Japanese and the full-American employees didn’t work as well together as you would have liked and you prefer a more collaborative environment?

          2. Close Bracket*

            I would stick with what Daydreaming Admin Assistant said. As satisfying as it is to stick up for a value, like a discrimination free workplace, I think citing more typical reasons, with examples to back them up, is better. Workplace culture fits are so fuzzy, and you are right that potential employers could think you are the problem. I assume that you are only going to apply for jobs that you want, so stick to job specific stories like, “I saw that this job has aspect X as a large part of it, and I would like to make aspect X a larger part of my role. My current job involves only about 10% time spent on aspect X.” Or say you are intrigued by the mission or the product or something. “I love llama grooming and want to keep being a llama groomer. I’m passionate about underground bunkers, and when I saw that an underground bunker company needed a llama groomer, I had to apply.”

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t bring up the actual discrimination issue.

      Think of it this way. Everyone who isn’t you know…awful. Is well aware that illegal activity like discrimination is awful and isn’t tolerated by others. But by bringing it up, you get people to question you specifically and your motives in talking about it. Since they are not presumably crimes that they’ve been deemed guilty of in a court of law, so to speak.

      If they dig for more information, you could mention the language issue creating communication issues among the staff. Since it cuts off people who don’t speak the language you all share.

      Talk about the micromanagement of breaks even. Just leave out the race issue that’s involved. The things they’re doing can be issues without saying “They’re doing this due to their bigotry”. Unfair and unjust treatment, no standard set for all to follow kind of thing.

      I left somewhere that disregarded safety and did illegal stuff as well [firing injured workers]. I still couldn’t really bring that up without the whole “Don’t talk trash about your former employer” thing because they don’t know that you’re seriously in the loop and you know what’s really going on, they just know you’re talking about their inside stuff to an outsider. It’s dumb and I hate it but it’s the life that is limited trust and knowledge of the actual situations at hand.

    4. Anon Here*

      You don’t have to say anything negative about them during the interview. Interviews are usually not a good place for that. Save it for a writing project. To be published after you’ve found a new job. In the interview(s), focus on the future and keep things positive. You’re leaving to pursue exciting new challenges. Then speak with knowledge and enthusiasm about the place where you’re interviewing.

  186. WTDWTD*

    I have an interview next week one of the big reasons I’m leaving is an undercurrent of hostility toward collaboration/cooperation – they asked me to design forms but refuse to agree on ANYTHING, think down to the level of font choice, header vs subheader formatting, header name conventions… everybody just uses their own out of date forms then anxiety all over me when stuff isn’t going out fast enough but also when I say okay well you’ve acknowledged I do a LOT more than the other assistants so what should I cut back on? They say nothing, we like that you do that, so I say okay, can we please discuss using the same forms then so I can revies them much faster, they say no, we want our way, that’s just how it is. I’m frazzled & frustrated since in the interview they said they were chaotic due to growth spurt but looking to fix that, but are also weirdly hostile about getting help/advice/instructions from head office. Applies to other stuff too – racist/sexist/classist/etc talk, ALL made fun of an anti-bullying thing they had to sign….

    But how do I put this into interview speak so i dont sound like *I* might be the hard to work with one???

    1. Daisy-dog*

      When I answer the “why are you leaving your current job” question, I just make it about the new role. I want to work in this industry. I want more growth opportunities in a bigger company. I want to do what the job entails.

      1. WTDWTD*

        Hm I’ve only been in the job for just under a year so I suspect they’ll ask about this one. Knew it was a risk adding it but have 2 ppl (at least) who I know will be excellent references… just gotta get far enough Into the process to make those calls!

  187. imposter spindome*

    I’m an office manager, and I just started at a new office a few months ago, where I have a lot more responsibility and decision-making authority. I’m realizing I don’t have a go-to person or forum for office-manager stuff. Do other admins out there have any resources for questions like…. Is it normal that this janitorial services is billing me for supplies without asking me? How often should our HVAC get serviced? What’s a reasonable price for a handyman? Are these IT vendors just trying to get a sale or do I really need 8 wireless access points?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Where’s your contract for your janitorial services? Read that, it should include billing for supplies. We personally stock ours and they do not charge us with their markups.

      Your HVAC system gets serviced depending on it’s maintenance schedule. Call your HVAC people and ask them about the schedule. It’s usually annually.

      Get quotes from multiple handymen.

      Don’t buy anything that you’re not sure of, they will try to pitch you the moon. You have to really be there longer than a few months to know if you need that 8 wireless access points. You need an IT administrator you trust. Ours only tries to sell us stuff if we bring it up. Don’t shop IT around, get the best team. That’s where you don’t skimp on the price.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t ever be afraid to ask your vendors to explain themselves. Be kind and courteous of their time but they’re there to service your office/facility. So if you have questions about things like regular maintenance ask.

      Also once you’re established and less scared, start writing these things down. It gives you a point of reference to go back to. It also helps if you get abducted by aliens and someone needs to do your job for you while waiting for your safe return. Office manuals are for you as much as they are for the company itself.

      I put notes on things like the copier that says “Should be serviced every June” or whatever. Along with keeping it in my manuals for maintenance and repairs notes/hacks.

      When in doubt, don’t buy things you aren’t sure about. For the first bit, I never buy a damn thing because these vendors can take advantage of a new person. So tell them you’ll be in touch if you find you need that but right now, you think everything is working just fine.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I didn’t actually answer your actual question of “is there a resource for this” and honestly, there really isn’t much of one. You can crowdsource if you use these FFAF kind of setups. Or there may be forums out there but I’m not aware of any…

      Lots of it is you flying on the seat of your pants and making magic. Don’t be afraid of that, it’s less scary once you’re in the air, I promise but getting comfortable and to trust yourself takes time.

      You should also make sure you look at your old documents. Check when the last time things received maintenance, I’m assuming you have access to your old invoices that you can search and get a good idea of who to call for what. I find things by looking through charts of accounts to find where things were done. I get a lot of “This was last done in 2012…now we need to do it again…no I don’t remember the name of the company.”

      You don’t have a go to person because my dear friend, you are now the go-to person.

    4. MMB*

      Very much what TMBL said. You’re it now and if your predecessor didn’t leave any notes now is an awesome time to start a notebook. Servicing for HVAC units can vary widely depending on whether or not they have filters and the type of filter. If you can find a tag on yours and look it up online there should be a manual somewhere that will outline regular required maintenance. Same with your copier and most other mechanical items. Again, if things were being done properly before, old invoices are a godsend. They also have a way of telling you who NOT to use. For example, if you notice that you used a particular vendor for a number of years and then suddenly stopped there’s usually a reason. It might be OK to go back to them but you may want to ask some questions about why you changed. 8 WAP’s is …. kind of a lot depending on your building’s size and structure. We run 4 in a 20,000 sq ft bldg with cinderblock and metal construction. And you really only need new access points if you’re having wireless connectivity issues or yours are just super super old and constantly need a reboot. So says my “guy” who I trust implicitly.

  188. Sheep*

    Hi all!
    I was promoted last year in December, and with that I became the manager of one of my peers (let’s call him Bob), who had joined the organisation 1 month prior. Bob is currently at Manager level, and has 1 direct report (an assistant). His work is generally above average, he is able to manage his own portfolio without much input from me, and he works hard. For about 9 months Bob held a portfolio that should belong to 2 managers. I did my best to take stuff of his plate, but nonetheless it was a lot of work. (I had to endure the same for about 1.5 yrs (I also didn’t have a me between Manager and grandboss) and burned out as a result, and needed 6 weeks off to recover.

    I’m currently working to get Bob a bonus, something my organisation does not really do. I’ve told him this. Now, it has been three months of tiny tiny movement with HR and leadership, and finally it looks like we are in agreement. Bob says he is losing motivation and keeps reminding me of the bonus in every check-in we have. He also keeps pushing me for a promotion to senior manager. I have told him that a) I don’t think he is ready for that, and b) we don’t have that position in our structure (I went from manager to deputy director, which is above senior manager). I’ve also told him that my plan is for him to take over my position when I leave in approximately 1 year.

    Yet, he keeps coming back to me on these two points every week. I don’t know how to handle the situation anymore. Nothing I say seem to improve the situation, and Bob is adamant that he deserves a promotion. Any good ideas from the commentariat?

    Thanks a lot in advance!

  189. Abe*

    I’m a data analyst and I have set up a schema for analyzing CSR comments. The schema is subjective and personal to my opinions. I’m supposed to train about 5 people to help me analyze these concepts. The 5 people are very different from me and I don’t know how I can communicate all my concepts so they will do it right. How can I go about training people on something complicated and high level that doesn’t have clearly defined parameters?

    1. deadmonton reader*

      Had to do this for interviews and themes will appear in large datasets. Try and aim for the big/generalized themes.

      Document on your thought process and why you made these decisions. You could look at words that are repeated, emoticons, tone (count exclaimation points?)

      If you have time, do this as phase one and refine in subsequent phases under your big themes

  190. CathB*

    Long time reader, first time poster here.
    I’m struggling. This year was a tough one. I moved into a new role, manager of lama grooming tools, at my company about a year and a half ago and received no on boarding and little to no coaching or feedback. My boss has praised my work on every possible occasion (but honestly, I don’t think I’m that great).
    Earlier this year we acquired a business offering a very specialised lama grooming tool and it’s been a struggle ever since. My role regarding the new business was never clarified and for the last 6 months I’m fighting other people so I get to do my job. On top of that, we are re-organising, so my role will be split into lama tool design and lama tool promotion.
    Needless to say, I was busy taking care of the existing lama grooming tools, adding another has easily doubled my workload.
    Before moving into this role I started a distance learning degree (let’s say a master in lama administration) that will help me advance my career.
    Right now I’m at a crossroads, my job is taking over my life, my relationship is going down the drain and right now it feels like I need to choose between pursuing the degree and getting really good at the design part of my role.

    Sorry, I just needed to vent.

  191. Lives in a Shoe*

    I got an interview to a job I thought was a real reach. It’s in a department I like very much – or at least I like the director very much and some of the colleagues, and the work product coming out of there is absolutely top-notch. I’m worried both that I will get and not get it – if that makes sense. I’m afraid I won’t be successful if I do get it. I’m going to spend some hard time preparing for the interview, though. Whew.

    It would be a HUGE salary increase – like almost life-changing.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s easier said than done [such is life] but try not to focus on that “sticker price” with the life changing salary. Sometimes it spooks people and they think that it means you’re supposed to be perfect or some kind of “earn that, it’s so much money” kind of mentality.

      You will be successful. You will do well. You will learn everything you need to once you’re submerged within the department with the other team members. Fake it until you make it, friend.

  192. LizB*

    Aaah, it’s late, but maybe I can get an answer from the Excel wizards of the commentariat? I hear many things about the amazing stuff that can be done with Excel — can someone tell me if the following is possible to automate?

    I have a task several times a week in which I need to download a shared spreadsheet from Sharepoint; a new spreadsheet is created each day with the previous day’s numbers. Once I have the sheet open, I need to do the following:
    1. Expand all columns so all text can be seen
    2. Filter the sheet on column A to see only my department
    3. Auto-sum column E
    4. Put column E in $ format
    5. Print all visible rows of columns A through H with the following settings: landscape orientation, fitting all columns on one page, showing gridlines

    Which, if any, of those steps can I automate? In my ideal world I would be able to write some macro or program that I run on each spreadsheet and it would do all the steps automatically, so the printer would just spit out my properly formatted report, but that seems unlikely.

    1. no kind of atmosphere*

      All this can be done with a macro. What I’d do is create a macro workbook with this week’s spreadsheet in one of the tabs, then set the macro to record. Do all the steps you want. Stop the macro recording.

      You may need to tweak the macro to work on the active sheet, or you could just blank all the data in the data worksheet and paste in each week’s on top. Make sure all the columns are always the same, though; if columns shift, you’ll have to poke the macro to adjust.

    2. Rick Tq*

      Subtotal has lots of options that only use the displayed data when you have filtered down to your department.

  193. Lost in Translation*

    I recently attempted to apply for a job with a large company that uses an ADP-based automated application system. Apparently, I had applied for this same job the last time the position was open – 3 years ago – and the system won’t let me reapply now or submit an updated resume/cover letter. Is this common? A lot can happen in 3 years and it seems unreasonable that a person wouldn’t be able to provide new information.
    I wrote to the generic HR email given in the job posting (jobs@bigcompany.org) asking for guidance on how to provide fresh application materials, but it’s been two weeks and I haven’t received a response. I have the contact information for the reporting manager for the position, although I don’t know them personally – is it out of line to email them to explain the situation and ask for a direct HR contact?

  194. What was I doing SQUIRREL!*

    Not sure whether this falls under Friday (since it’s about work/jobs) or Saturday (since it’s about a fictional character), so let me know if I should move this to the Saturday thread.

    I need to come up with a small tech/engineering business for my story character to co-own, something large enough to have employees beyond the two owners but not a huge company. For story reasons, the character needs to travel to a city in another state at least monthly, so I need a plausible reason why he rather than a subordinate is doing the travel and why the travel has to be done at all. Home-base city and travel-to city both have strong tech industries: HB more military and aerospace; TT more information and tech manufacturing. Late in the story, the character may be looking into opening a branch of the business in TT (though there’d have to be a good reason to deal with the extra hassle of doing business in a new state) or perhaps moving the business there, but he’d have been travelling to TT before the question of opening there comes up.

    Any suggestions for what kinds of businesses I should look at — consulting? design work? left-handed veeblefetzer manufacturing? I don’t need to know the gritty day-to-day details of the business for this particular story, just enough to clear a minimal plausibility bar.

    2. Llellayena*

      Alternate energy engineering. Like wind power or wave power. It’s aerospace adjacent (fluid dynamics) so would make sense to have started in home base city, and the manufacturing and testing can happen in travel-to city. Pick the specific type of energy based on what TT city has (mountains = wind, coast = water, etc). Testing reviews and marketing tours of the manufacturing facilities would easily be the co-owner’s job, not a subordinate.

    3. Leopard*

      IT security auditing/consulting might require travel – especially if they’re doing offensive (physical pen-testing) work. Also, there are lots of small businesses that do business management software specific to a particular industry (managing floral inventory, managing book publishing, etc.) where they provide software to other small businesses and the CEO will go out to the small businesses to do the implementation work (and stick around after go-live to solve issues that come up). Also, ethnography-based design work could require travel to sit with the actual users.

    6. Close Bracket*

      so I need a plausible reason why he rather than a subordinate is doing the travel and why the travel has to be done at all.

      lol, I work for a defense contractor, and you have to be Worthy to travel. Predominately, it is the higher ups who travel, and they seem to do it bc they just like to be in the same room with each other now and then. Every place I have worked that requires travel, it has been this way.

  195. TexasRose*

    I have a friend who teaches accelerated math in high school (US), specifically Algebra II Honors and AP Calculus AB and BC. Her new principal is pushing the teachers to “spice up their presentations with stuff from You Tube” – but S is finding that her kids already know how to look things up on the internet. What they do NOT seem to know how to do is look up information in the index of a hardcopy book, or how to look up the “answer in the back of the math book” to check that their homework answer is correct. (Or maybe they’re simply not willing to do so, and claim ignorance as an easier excuse.)
    My question is to the general readership is: How many of your offices or jobs still use hardcopy books, proposals, etc. – something that does not have links, pop ups, or CTRL-F to find information? I’m preferably looking for anecdata that could be thrown out as justification for learning this skill.

    1. OtterB*

      This has been on my mind with the upcoming shift in my office from private offices to work pods. I’m losing most of my shelf space. There are some books I want to keep at the office and some I will take home, but the stats and research methods books I’ve realized I no longer use. If I need to know a formula or the limitations of a method or some such, I’m more likely to google it than take down a text and look it up.

      That said, I think people should know how to use an index and look things up in hardcopy. But I’m a dinosaur.

      1. valentine*

        Not all skills need to be used in the workplace. They’ll need to do research and write papers where it behooves them to know how to look up endnotes/bibliographies. In ebooks, you click back and forth, but you need to know what they are.

        They should also learn how to address an envelope.

        (An index should be standard for autobiographies.)

    2. whistle*

      I’m in Government contracting and use hard copy books, proposals etc (in addition to electronic ones). We have to submit hard copy proposals in binders with indexes, so the Government graders also have to be able to use hard copy indexes.

      I find it much easier to process complex contract language when I can read it on a page and interact with it (notes, highlighting, etc.) For me, this interaction cannot be replicated on a computer screen. I also remember information much better this way b/c my memory is assisted with spacial information that I just cannot get from a pdf. For example, I may remember that a particular section of a contract was about a third of the way through a stack of papers, and this will help me remember the content of that section.

      I was a substitute teacher in the local school district about 7 years ago, and I was astounded that the students could not (or would not) use an index in a text book. In one class, the teacher left a worksheet for the students to do, and they could use the available text or the internet on their own devices to do the worksheet. There were only one or two students a class willing to use the textbook, and that was actually faster than trying to google all the info.

      Technology is great but it does not replace everything all the time.

      1. LQ*

        Strong agree about processing complex contract language on paper. And I’m someone who has moved entirely to digital books for every other part of my life. When I have to read contracts/proposals/etc I want a paper copy and a couple pens and the internet for googling.

        There is also serious power in meetings to being able to be handed a physical document and get to where you need to be. That being able to do it on the fly in meetings is likely where I use indexes and scanning most. Essentially when people don’t want you to find that flaw, you need to be able to find it, you need skills at working with paper or documents that don’t lend themselves to ctrl+f. (The digital version of this I’d say is terms and conditions. They rarely have indexes, but you should be able to learn how to scan/look up/find information in them without knowing exactly what you’re looking for (making ctrl+f powerless to help you).)

        1. Gatomon*

          Yes, anything complex or lengthy I really prefer to have a printed copy of! I’ve also moved back to taking more and more notes on physical paper because it helps me remember what I’m doing or what I just learned.

    3. MMB*

      I work in a job where I frequently have to compare multiple hard copy bids/quotes, look up old information that is only archived on paper (transferring to digital isn’t an option) and create and review documents that are hard copy only like inspection reports. In my previous job (A/R different field) knowing how to look up information and audit a deal without using a computer was an essential day-to-day task.

      Also, when I was in school the very first place you looked was the back of the math book to see if the answers were there!

    4. MinotJ*

      I’m in healthcare. Almost all of our reference documentation is in a blissfully searchable electronic format – except for faxes. Faxes have disappeared everywhere else but still live in this world. The skills needed aren’t so much using an index or a table of contents, but actually forcing your eyes to read enough of a document to find the relevant information. My brain says “Ctrl-F!” but that’s not an option.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Hah, yes! I was just going to say, I’m a medical coder and haven’t looked anything up in an actual book since I took my cert exam in 2007. (Though our fax system is computer based, so my incoming faxes are actually PDFs emailed to me by our fax system server.)

    5. LilySparrow*

      There is a vast amount of useful information in the world that nobody has digitized, because they can’t monetize it and nobody is donating money to support it.

      Go to your local library and ask how many of their nonfiction and reference titles are available as ebooks or on websites.

    6. Gatomon*

      We have some really meaty technical books we keep around, the type that you could probably kill a football player with if you chucked it at their head. You need to be able to digest those books to be successful and pass the required certifications, and being able to use the index would be killer in a time crunch. Otherwise, everything is computerized.

      You can even buy those technical books in ebook form, but to me, the ease and speed of using an index in a physical book is one thing that ebooks fail at.

  196. Jemima Bond*

    Bit of a draining week and topped off with a tiring stressful Friday. What made me realise I was tired? Well. Context: my boyfriend with whom I live but do not work, loves tea and also offers to make cups for me, pretty much every day. Bless his kind heart.
    This afternoon a colleague said to me “do you want a cup of tea?” while I was wrestling with a recalcitrant computer system. My tired brain registered only “male person…offering tea” and made a subconscious leap of logic.
    And that is how today I came to call one of my directs reports “sweetheart”.

    It was ok we all laughed but I was clearly not quite with it!

  197. Insert Witty Name Here*

    I missed 2 calls from a company for an interview. They called twice in 2 hours… Is this odd? (I had a conference and couldn’t get to my phone.)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Twice in two hours? Doesn’t sound odd at all. Twice in 15 or 20 minutes would be weird to me. But that sounds like they gave you some time to get back to them but weren’t anticipating that you were going to be out for so long. So many people don’t check their voicemails that I call after around 4 hours personally but 2 hours, meh not that strange.

    2. Susan K*

      Nah, they were probably just trying to get the interview schedule set before they leave for the weekend. It’s not odd to try again a couple of hours later if they couldn’t reach you the first time.

  198. I'd Just Like to Use My Brain, Please*

    I got a job in County government a few years after graduating college in a department related to my education. It does really important work but is only really busy and engaging at specific times during the year; the rest of the year the work was very dull and I spent most of my days yearning for something more complex and fast-paced. The pay was horrible too. After 3.5 years there I bit the bullet and applied for a State government position in a department that would oversee licensing for an exciting new industry.

    I was told during my interview that the position would be involved with license application reviews with a little license fee processing on the side. I got hired and was thrilled to learn that I would be starting at the high end of the pay scale, which would enable my husband and I to finally climb out of debt after years of minimum/low-wage jobs in our very rural area. Minimum/low wage jobs make up about 90% of the economy here, unless you’re in a specialized field like healthcare or law enforcement. However, after starting, my duty statement was changed so that there would be absolutely no application review and instead 100% fee processing. I now find myself back in a position where the work is slow, dull, and unfulfilling and I can’t even go to bed at night thinking I’ve made a positive impact on the world like at my County job. I know the County would take me back in a heartbeat but I make ridiculously good money for essentially doing the work of a Wal Mart cashier. It’s not something I can easily walk away from. My boss has been a good advocate for trying to get us more interesting work but bureaucratic political games are keeping all the power with people who don’t want to divvy up tasks or relinquish control.

    I guess my question is – what the hell? I feel like I got bait and switched here. How do I keep winding up in jobs that turn out to be tedious and boring? How do I avoid this in the future? Are all office jobs this soul sucking? Is there more I can do to convince the powers that be at HQ that me and my colleagues are an untapped resource ready to spring at the opportunity for advanced tasks? I know I could probably find something more fulfilling that pays as well, or even better, if we moved to a less rural place but my husband is on an upward trajectory at his job (with the potential to make twice what I do now) and I don’t want him to lose out on his opportunity just because I’m bored, so simply moving is not an (reasonable) option.

    1. Susan K*

      No, not all office jobs are soul-sucking and boring, but there are almost always tradeoffs, and only you can decide how to weigh different factors in your life. You traded more fulfilling work and low pay for higher pay and less fulfilling work, but you’re not willing to trade your location and your husband’s career opportunities to improve both. There are so many other factors that affect what the best overall job is for you — commute, work-life balance, opportunities for advancement, corporate culture, manager and coworkers, dress code, schedule, benefits and perks, etc. In my experience, it’s very hard to find a new job that’s better in all respects, but the pros should outweigh the cons if you’re going to change jobs.

      It’s frustrating to know that you’re not happy with your current situation but you can’t get out of it without giving something else up, but you can try to focus on the advantages and remember that you are accepting the bad parts of the job so you can benefit from the good parts.

    2. LQ*

      You often have to go through a bit of soul sucking hell to get to something less tedious and boring. And not everyone gets to crawl out of the boring, because the honest truth is a LOT of jobs are boring and the work that needs to be done is that work. Sorry, but who do you suggest process fees if not you and your colleagues? It is work that has to be done. My thing has always been to sort of …find a way to work myself out of a job by making that job automated/easier/doable by fewer people. The good news for me is that this has gotten me promoted over time into WAY more interesting work. The bad news is that there’s rarely a job behind me, or where there maybe should have been 5 jobs, now there are 2.

      Because that work of processing fees is now done in a mostly automated way with someone reviewing the transactions, or reports, but not someone doing it by “hand.”

      So one way out is to make the job of you and your coworkers go away. But wishing that HQ will give you more advanced tasks…like I get it, but also there are often just fewer complex jobs so there won’t likely be space for everyone at the next tier up of complexity because there (should be) just straight up less of that work. Processing complex fees, only 10% of the cases should be complex, so you don’t need as many people, even if it takes longer to process them.

      The best thing to do is always look around and see what around you could be done better/faster/etc. Don’t wait for HQ to give you more interesting work, find it, do it, take it. Don’t suggest like “Oh! Let’s build a giant system to do all automated processing for the entire state!” Suggest something like, if we have folks process the same kind of fees they’ll be able to get through them quicker and then we should spend 2 hours a week learning excel and then we can use excel to get through everything in 4 days instead of 5. Or let’s use the triage method of getting through processing fees. If you hit one that’s complex you set it aside. Once you burn the stack once you loop back through and burn again. You burn through all the easy ones right away. But you save the complex ones and at the end of the day everyone get’s together and meets for an hour (because you’ll absolutely save time triaging) and gets to talk about the complex ones and work them together. This gives people a chance to do something a little different and more interesting, it lets people build skills. And then after you’ve done this for a couple months you can come up with some recommended changes, either to process for the easy ones, or for something for the hard ones. And then once you’ve gotten that down and your district processes faster than every other district you take your show on the road and train all the other districts. Now you’ve reduced the processing time for license fees for the entire state to 1 day on average, 5 days for outliers. Now you get to start doing interesting work because you have more time and you can find cooler work to do (like build training, or develop a computer program, or build processes, or improve customer service, or whatever). But the boring work has to get done. So get it done better.

      Sorry that got super long…

      1. CM*

        I agree that there’s always lots of tedious work that needs to happen, but job crafting (the process by which you figure out the roles in an organization) is a thing, and, when people design structures where some roles ONLY involve tedious tasks, they’ve done poor job crafting. There are a bunch of studies about WHY people are bad at job crafting — because a lot of them are, and it’s not at all UNCOMMON to see organizations where the undesirable tasks all get pushed onto a few people who don’t get to do much else — but there’s absolutely no reason why it has to be this way. It’s a choice that someone’s making, and not a very considerate one.

        My advice to the OP is to think about what their longterm plan is for the future. If the idea is that the OP will stop working if their partner gets promoted to a job that pays more money, it might be worth hanging in there to see what happens. But if the plan is to keep working then, yeah, they might want to consider as a family whether the partner can secure a similar position in a bigger city or at least a place where the OP has better job prospects overall.

    3. Sleepy*

      Can you look for systems improvements that will make your work go faster or more efficiently, and free you up to take on some more additional tasks? Even just looking for systems improvements can make work a bit more interesting.

  199. Triple Threat Diversity Hire*

    I wrote in last week about a manager position coming open in my group, and how I was depressed about it because it would be exactly what I want to advance in my career right now, but I know coming into it that I’m not the best qualified (or most preferred) candidate. Someone asked me to update this week – I did apply, and I have an interview coming up next week. I’m not surprised, since it’s not that I’m unqualified – it’s that
    since these opportunities are so rare, I’m a regular/good level of qualified and my co-worker who is applying is a ridiculous level of qualified.

    Any tips on how to keep my spirits up and sell myself well in the interview? I don’t know of any weaknesses/gaps that my co-worker has that I excel in, so I don’t really have anything to give me an edge and I’m feeling a bit lost.

    1. Budgie*

      I probably can’t give you the advice you’re looking for here, but I do know that when I’ve applied for jobs that were out of my league it gave me insight to what I needed to improve in my own skill set. In one case my interviewer was happy to meet me, thought I had a great personality, and was off to a good start in my career, but I wasn’t at the level I needed to be to take over that particular position. During the interview she did tell me all the things I should work on to help make me a better candidate going forward. With that advice I ended up finding a two week workshop in the areas where I needed a boost and got a great job just a few months after!

      It’s impossible to know where opportunities will come up. Just do your best, and even if you don’t get this job it could lead to something unexpected.

      1. Triple Threat Diversity Hire*

        Thank you, I appreciated hearing your story! It’s important for me to remember that I’m gaining something useful out of this experience still!

    2. CM*

      When I was interviewing for internal promotions, the key thing for me was to get in a mindset where I was like, “I’m okay with coworker X getting this position if they will truly do a better job than I would, or even if they’d do an equally good job,” and then just focus on explaining why I thought I would do a good job, personally, rather than why I would be better than someone else.

      I also think it’s key to phrase things in a way that helps you feel dignified even in the event that your coworker gets the promotion and you need to work with them later — so, acknowledge that there’s more than one strong candidate and that you probably have different things to offer, and then highlight whatever things YOU have.

      Another thing that’s worked for me is to look at it as an opportunity to sell yourself in general — so, even if you don’t get this exact job, maybe you’ll make a really good impression on the decision-makers, in ways that could help you later on.

      So, I think my advice is that you obviously believe you would do a good job in this role, so trust that that’s true and explain your reasoning to the hiring committee with confidence, knowing that, even if they don’t choose you in the end, what you’re saying about the reasons you’d be a strong option can still be completely correct. It’s not a scenario where you’re saying, “I think I’d be good at this,” and they’re saying either “You’re right” or “You’re wrong.” It’s a scenario where you’re saying, “I think I’d be good at this,” and you’re right, and then they may or may not choose to offer you the job.

    3. LGC*

      You’re – by your own username – a triple threat diversity hire. You might have very different insights and perspectives on things than your “ridiculously qualified” coworker. And that definitely is something! It’s not about being qualified on paper, it’s about who the best fit is for the job. And unless you work in an office building full of evil bees, I’m pretty sure that they think you’re at least qualified enough to take a look at – even with your ridiculously qualified coworker.

      I’d emphasize your soft skills and your insights, really. Managing is – in large part – being paid to play well with others. (I mean, that’s every job, but management especially.) I wouldn’t talk too much about being a minority explicitly, just because that would probably be a bit off-putting, but…I feel like that might be a leg up you have on your coworker.

      1. Triple Threat Diversity Hire*

        You’re right, I do definitely have a different perspective and background than my co-worker, and depending on what they’re looking for that could be a real asset. It seems like a bit of a dance to figure out, because my company has very good policies but also a tendency to think that “colorblindness” (and the analogous mindset for other types of diversity) is the answer, which doesn’t lead to real diversity. I’m trying to come in confident but not get my hopes up too high, considering that I don’t have as much leadership experience to talk about in my presentation (co-worker has gotten the team lead roles on our recent projects due to seniority).

  200. ALAJ*

    Here’s an interview question:
    I think I’ve read somewhere that a good question to ask at an interview is:
    Do you have any worries about my experience or answers I’ve given thus far in the interview?
    I’ve done this in a couple interviews and it’s worked for me – I find it a nice wrap up question because it can a) prompt more conversation to validate your candidacy or b) end the interview on a nice note when the interviewer says ‘no’.

    Of course, the interviewer might not feel comfortable throwing their concerns in your face and you might get a ‘no’ when the real answer is a ‘yes’. But I don’t think that this is a bad question to ask.

    Do you guys/gals this this is too pushy/aggressive of a question to throw at an interviewer?

    Thanks!

    1. soya*

      I like this question. The only thing is I’m one of those people who have to process things for a bit. I probably wouldn’t be able to give you decent feedback immediately.

    2. wingmaster*

      I always like to ask this question for similar reasons you listed. I also usually like to ask this at the final rounds of interview, because by then the company should have a good understanding of my candidacy and it gives me an idea if I should spend more time pursuing the opportunity.

    3. Anon Here*

      I would phrase it as, “Are there any concerns that I can address?” Long version: “Based on our conversation and my application so far, are there any concerns that I can address?” That opens it up to all kinds of concerns and questions but narrows it to ones they feel comfortable talking about.

    4. LilySparrow*

      When you say, “it’s worked for me,” do you mean that it resulted in a job offer?

      What is too pushy varies hugely by industry and local culture. But if you are landing the jobs you want, then you’re doing it right.

      If not, then maybe it is too pushy for your field.

      Personally, I’m a big believer in priming as part of rapport and persuasion, and I tend to interview with rather subjective, creative types. So I would be leery of suggesting the words “worry” or “concern” about myself to an interviewer. People generally find what they go looking for, so I don’t want them looking for something to be concerned about!

  201. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Best way to wrap up an otherwise spectacular Friday?

    Getting a “return to sender” notice from a customer who owes you money but apparently went out of business in the darkness of night. I knew it was going to happen, with their phone being disconnected the last time I tried but gut punch of “RTS: REASON VACANT”.

    I clutched the paper in my hands and screamed “STARTUPSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS” into the wind while in the middle of the complex. Let’s see if we get a check in the next 7 years after it’s been tossed around in bankruptcy.

    Dear all owners, don’t just give credit to people DONT JUST GIVE OUT CREDIT. We can afford it in the end but I don’t like it, it doesn’t mean I have to like it *sobs gently*

  202. Insomnia Anon*

    I am very slowly recovering from a bunch of mental and physical health problems that impacted me in a bunch of ways, including messing up my sleep cycle. I am working on gradually getting up earlier, but for now, my wake-up time is often such that I either get online to work from home starting around 9 or 9:30, or come into work between 10 and 11. I am extremely fortunate to work somewhere that this is ok, or at least not directly commented on. My boss has been really understanding about my health issues and doesn’t really care about face time so long as I’m in office occasionally and on time for meetings. I want to come in to the office more though–I miss out on important conversations when I don’t and it’s better for my mental health to be in contact with people most days. I have been remote a little over half the time but would like to come in to work most days in the future.

    I’ve also had a lot of medical appointments directly after work so I often end up coming in at 10:30 and leaving at 4 or 4:30. I just finished up my current round of physical therapy so this should be slightly less of an issue in the future.

    I know that it’s not great to be working less than 8 hours most days (my work is one that values not working more than 40 hours except under unusual circumstances, but I worry I’m going too far in the other direction). I try to stay until 6 or 6:30 on days that I can. But I’m wondering if I should talk to my boss about this, since it’s not always gonna be possible and I worry about it looking like I’m slacking off or something.

    Can people pretend for the sake of giving advice that the start times I’ve described are not changeable? I am working on it but given all my other struggles this year I think it is going to be a slow process. Should I talk to my boss? Is there a good way to structure my workweek so that I am actually working 40 hour weeks–how have other people handled this, do you have a preferred schedule for making up missed hours so you’re actually making productive use of the time and not just staring at your computer for an extra hour for the sake of it?

    1. Susan K*

      Yes, I think you should definitely talk to your boss. It’s good that she doesn’t seem to care too much about “face time,” but is she aware that you are regularly putting in significantly less than 40 hours per week? A lot of this depends on how your company and your boss look at time off — for example, are you expected to use sick leave when you work a short day due to medical reasons (and do you have enough sick leave to cover that time)? It looks like you may be eligible for intermittent FMLA leave, but that’s not necessarily paid. It’s possible that your boss will be fine with letting you temporarily work fewer hours without using sick leave or FMLA leave, but you should have that discussion upfront. You don’t want her to find out after the fact that you’ve only been working 30 hours per week and think that you were trying to sneak it by her.

      As far as structuring your workweek, could you maybe work a half-day on the weekend? It looks like you have work-from-home privileges, so how about putting in your 6 hours at the office and then another hour or two from home after your appointments? Are there specific things that are easier to do at the office vs. other things that are just as easy to do from home? If so, it may help to set aside specific work to do from home at the end of the day.

    2. Quandong*

      I definitely think it’s worth talking with HR or your boss to formally request accommodations for your physical and mental health needs. It’s great that your boss is very understanding about your health issues, and I’m glad you haven’t been getting pressured to be in the office at 9 am every day.

      If you have formal accommodations, you’re protected in the event of a change at work such as your boss taking leave, or new corporate instructions about flexibility to work from home or to work non-standard office hours.
      I hope it would also allow you to feel less concerned if sometimes your health doesn’t allow you to work every day or if your sleep cycle gets disrupted periodically.

  203. Bruiser Woods*

    Any recommendations for a good app or software to manage ongoing compliance reporting and licence expiries for a few clients and multiple jobs. Preferably free or cheap. I set up something quickly on Tick Tick which is okay but reminders don’t work great. Microsoft Access seems like it needs VBA code to work for our needs which I don’t want to learn and seems a bit dated. Also tried Monday, Trello and Asana but a bit pricey and didn’t really need all the features as really only reminders for deadlines and due dates. Tick Tick is okay because it has a calendar and task list which allows to see looming deadlines if reminders don’t work.

  204. Amethyst*

    These have probably been asked somewhere here multiple times, so I’m sorry for the repeat.

    1. Favorite job boards? I frequent Indeed, Rat Race Rebellion, [my zipcode] jobs via Google search, Glassdoor, Zip Recruiter… What are some other ones you guys like?

    2. Where do I learn how to speak business speak? Lol. I’m not talking about jargon; I’m talking more like “Managed shipments to document processing center” -> “Responsible for facilitation of document cloud storage process”. What buzzwords should I be using in my resume? Is there a list somewhere I can use to get more hits? My company is the most business-like job I’ve ever had, but we aren’t very heavy on the business speak. We’re a very casual office. All of my other jobs have been retail until this one.

    3. I’m looking for entryish level bookkeeping type jobs. Most emphasize Quickbooks knowledge. I have about 10-15 years of bookkeeping/data entry/accounts receivable/reconciling books experience, but none have had me use the program. All of them relied on proprietary company programs to input all the data once we were done tallying up everything. Some of this experience is more than 10 years old. If I tailor it to the job, there’s going to be major gaps in which I did work, but can’t fit it all onto the 2 page maximum without it looking shady. I held each position for a minimum of 2 years, if that helps, but stayed within each company for 3-4 years each. So how do I tailor my resume to what I want when my resume is extremely lopsided on retail? My current company is the first one I’ve had completely out of retail (medical billing).

    1. ArtK*

      Please avoid the buzzwords. “Managed shipments to document processing center” is just fine. It’s clear. Frankly, my eyes would start rolling at “Responsible for facilitating…”. There was a letter where Alison addressed this fairly recently.

      2. Amethyst*

        Darn. I guess I should convert my resume back to me-speak, not business speak. A coworker asked her sister (HR head in a large company) to look at my resume & see what she could do to help me out & she sent me my current one back in business speak.

    2. LilySparrow*

      I haven’t used this myself yet, but I recently saw something on reddit about a free software called Rezi. It’s supposed to help optimize your resume to match with a job description. Might be worth checking out for the buiness-speak aspect.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t use buzzwords.

      People are paranoid about QB knowledge but if you’ve used multiple ERP systems and demonstrate you are adaptable to software, you can probably get through the door still.

      Can you take a Quickbooks course at your local community college? That would do you a world of good getting over that step.

      I have hired long term bookkeepers before who had no QB experience and it’s been an utter nightmare. It’s accounting dumbed down to utter silliness. So that’s part of the issue. So this is why that experience is critical to so many.

      Have you looked into working for a bookkeeping firm? That may be a good entry way into it! Then you’re using multiple software at that point at times. You can also get temp jobs covering for people and that would give you that critical Quickbooks experience.

  205. LGC*

    2) search “resume” here. Seriously! That’s what I’m doing myself.

    But what I think you’re looking for is how to emphasize accomplishments. For example, with the document management – were you ahead of schedule? Were you the primary manager? If you did the individual work, were you a good performer?

    I’m not going to lie, I explained filling file requests as fulfilling X number of customer document requests within 24 hours. Which is 1) true and 2) significantly inflating the importance of this task.

    3) emphasize that you’ve used bookkeeping software before. Quickbooks is standard. Quickbooks is NOT rocket science. This is an extremely male answer from me, but this is a case where you might be able to learn on the job – especially since you have a background already.

    Basically, I think they say “Quickbooks” because it’s a standard.

    Also, I’m in a similar position – I’ve only worked for one company, but three positions (okay, three and a half). I would group by company, especially for the older positions.

    2. Amethyst*

      Thanks. I can’t really put achievements because the position I’m referencing re: cloud storage had very little oversight. My manager is very hands off, & that position…well, basically no one cared how I did my job as long as everything I needed to do daily got done before I left. Sometimes I’d have to pull nearly 12 hour shifts (not often–maybe once a month or so) in order for everything to get done. Other than that, I had very little feedback as it was autonomous. I know I was damn good at that job because I can count on one hand & still have fingers left over with any serious mistakes I made (posting a payment to the wrong account that wasn’t discovered until months later, & the account # referenced in the person’s payment was the account I posted it to). That kind of thing. I just have offhanded comments from coworkers & my boss that I was doing a great job, to keep it up, you’re exactly what this job needs… that kind of thing, but nothing specific I can point to.

      Just to give you an idea: Bookkeeping (grocery store) for 2 of my 4 years there until 2007. Teller at a local bank for 1.5 years, then laid off right when the recession started. I had no work until 4.5 years later as another gofer at a retail store. Then it’s my last job for 3.5 years, & my current position which is very much like data entry, but with more to it. I find this job pretty boring. If I hadn’t been laid off from my last job, I’d still be doing it cuz I loved it.

  206. Editions of You*

    I had an interview yesterday, and I *think* it went well. However, now I can’t stop fantasizing about getting that damn job, which needs to STOP. If I don’t get it I don’t want to be more disappointed than I should be. Any advice on how to stop thinking about it until I hear back?

    One thing I’m going to do is apply for another position later today, but I’m not sure how to stop fantasizing about it.

    1. Future RN Gigi*

      Just focus planning something you enjoy as a reward for a great day of job applications. For me it was reading or watching a movie on Netflix.

    2. Avasarala*

      Imagine it’s really great in the ways you’re excited about…but your coworker neighbor is super chatty/never speaks, or you all have to hotdesk, or your salaries are a little low, or whatever would make you seriously reconsider the job. For me that’s helpful to reframe it–it’s not just me waiting to be judged by them. There’s things about the job that could disappoint me as well!

  207. JustAnotherRecruiter*

    Dirty lurker but rarely post, but I just have to share this with someone!

    I accepted a new job this week that doubles my current base salary (plus bonus/commissions)!!!

    I’ll be working remote and everyone I’ve interviewed with has been amazing. They’ve invited me to join the team for their quarterly meetup the weekend before I officially start so which I thought was very kind of them.

    I’m excited to leave my current toxic work culture for this new company. It’s within the same industry, and I have a knowledge base that no one there has so they were very excited to bring me on board (which after the summer from hell, is a huge confidence boost).

    Thanks for letting me share!

  208. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Some funny things that happened this week.
    1) Recruiters season has started. My inbox is full with promises of dream jobs that are too good to be true, both from reputable and gimmicky agencies/people. It’s funny to get mails from companies that rejected me not so long ago, now changed their mind and beg me to consider what they can offer. Sorry, you had your chance and I moved on.

    2) There was a political spat between the teams in my department. I was working from home when it happen, but my coworkers told me all the details when I came back. As a result we stopped having lunch together (each team sits as apart from the other as possible), the cross team people moved to a separate area, there’s almost no small talk and lots of “don’t talk to X, she is a [extremist movement] supporter”, “I can’t believe Y said [controversial opinion]”, and our “ladies only” group is officially dead. Yet another reason to keep politics away from the workplace.

  209. Chaordic One*

    So, at work it is open season to change your health insurance plans and some other benefit programs and they sent out a mass email announcing it. Within minutes someone sends an email complaining that the links that led to the various informational and enrollment sites didn’t work and they hit “Send All” in response so everyone in the organization all across the country gets to see it.

    This was followed by several more emails from different people complaining that their links didn’t work and several that told us that their links did work. There were a couple of helpful emails that provided information about work-arounds and other ways to get to the information you need to research and enroll in the various plans.

    But there were at least a hundred emails that advised “Please don’t hit SEND ALL.” The “Please don’t hit SEND ALL” emails were the worst.

    ARGH!

  210. IrishEm*

    Guys, I’m all retrospective right now, as I’ve passed the anniversary of being let go from my last job and coming up on the anniversary of my current job, and can I just be happy for a minute?

    I was shot out of a job the actual work of which I loved, but the people with whom I worked could go take a long walk off a short pier, and fell accidentally into such a warm, supportive and collaborative atmosphere, and I am amazed by how well I feel like I’m doing now. The last place tooted their exceptional training program, most of which I didn’t get to experience. Their one (1) trainer was on 3 weeks’ holidays when I started so I was 3 weeks behind where I should have been at the end of my probation. But, like, that wasn’t taken into account at all. I just wasn’t learning quickly enough for them, I was taking too much time trying to give customers a reason to return, which based on the type of products sold wasn’t the best use of my time, but, like, I wasn’t given a toolkit or appropriate guidance on how to change my approach, I was just told I was wrong, to fix it, with no real direction on how.

    Now, in my current role, I am given as much coaching and support as I need, I have managers who are everyone’s best cheerleader, who are willing to fight for you if they see promise, and who are realistic about offering direction. I was utterly shocked to be made Team Captain in September, and this week I was doing some supervisory work for the first time and was genuinely surprised by the number of managers and upper level management that took me aside and told me what a good job I was doing. My confidence has grown so much in my current job, and I just can’t get over the difference good supportive management makes.

    Also, and possibly a bit less relevant, but in the last year or so I figured out my sexuality and I feel like in no other of my previous workplaces could I have been safely out as I am in my current job. I fially feel like I can be as much my authentic self at my job as is appropriate. My mental health is so much stronger going into the end of 2019 than it was going into the beginning of it.

  211. Confused*

    Anyone ever have a “meet and greet” interview? It’s my third interview with this company and just wondering what to expect.

  212. Stef*

    I understand what everyone is saying. However, all my rejections have been (either e-mail and/or in person) are because I don’t have experience in clerical or receptionist work. All my life since I was 15/16 (when I had a work permit and applied to retail companies who were able to hire people under 18), everyone drummed it into my head that they can’t hire me because I have no experience.
    When I was 15, I applied at Bed, Bath, and Beyond and the SM looked at me up and down like a piece of meat in a grocery store. She sneered at me and said she doesn’t hire high schoolers because they don’t know how to fold towels and operate a register. She said to me that she doesn’t hire people who have 0 experience.
    I thought to myself that it’s not hard to fold towels, and it’s not hard to account for every cent and dollar that comes in and out of the register. It’s not brain surgery!
    Every other interview after that, managers would reject me because I don’t have retail experience to be a sales associate. I tried applying at grocery stores, but they wouldn’t even take me for the very same reason.
    Then I had this memorable interview when I was 17. I applied online for a sales associate position at Easy Spirit, which was a small store at an outlet shopping center in my hometown. I got a call to come in for an interview. I go to the interview and meet with the SM. We take a seat outside the store on a bench because, according to her, they received a huge shipment of boxes. Then the SM from Nine West joined us too because she was looking for sales associates as well, and both stores decided to band together for interviews.
    They asked me why I applied, and I stated I was looking for a summer job to gain retail experience. I added I applied at ES because I love shoes and would enjoy helping customers find the perfect pair of shoes for them. Well, I guess they suddenly realized that I didn’t have experience because the SM from ES said, “Oh, you don’t have any retail experience?” I say yes. The SM from Nine West glares at me and says, “well, just to let you know, we don’t hire people with no retail experience. In fact, you should just give up looking for a job because you don’t have experience, and no one will ever hire you because you don’t have experience.” I really wanted to yell and scream at those managers for dragging me to this interview just to tell me that, but I stayed incredibly calm and I didn’t want to make a scene in public. I said goodbye, stood up, and walked as quickly as I could. I will never forget that experience.
    Finally, when I was 19, I got my first job as a stock associate and someone finally took a chance on me. Then a year later, I joined the handbag store and worked there for 4 years with great managers. Now, the same thing is happening to me that happened to me when I was 15/16. That’s why I’m asking this question. I’ve always had to go through the school of hard knocks, so it’s not easy for me to go through the easy way. I can never take the A road. I always have to go through the rain forest.
    Like I said above, I plan to go to a temp agency, but I don’t know how they work. Again, I’ll be up against people who have oodles of experience over me, especially if companies laid those people off. With hundreds of applicants out there, managers can be picky, and if I was a manager, I wouldn’t even pick me. I would pick someone with experience because that means it makes their job easier and they don’t have break a bunch of fresh French manicured fingernails in the process to train me.

  213. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

    Ah, people will get offended at everything. My HR person has Jesus stuff. Am I offended? Yes. Have I said so? No. I am just waiting to get my Satanic Temple Baphomet statue.

  214. Urban Librarian*

    After much thought, I am looking for help from the collective brain.
    I have a new staff member, “Sally,” who I hired because she has the skills for the job and her front-facing (with the public) skills are good. However, in her first week, she rubbed almost everyone else on the team the wrong way. My assistant manager and I had picked up on these vibes, and “Sally” then came to the assistance manager crying that “everyone” (except us) was being mean to her. So, we privately asked a few of them, then had a team meeting to go over general “be courteous, be helpful, etc to your colleagues” things and then the two of us met with “Sally” to talk about things. I explained that it seemed what was happening was a mismatch of communication styles: she is a self-described “tell it like it is, very blunt” person and perhaps didn’t realize she is coming across as defensive to her co-workers. I felt the talk had gone well.
    However, I’m still picking up on weird vibes between her and other staff, so I asked one of the staff yesterday how things were going. This is a staff member who has a clearheaded, fair way of approaching things, so while I knew it would be awkward, I knew she would be honest. And, things are not better at all. When “Sally” is given direction or correction (which is completely understandable, since she is new) she becomes very defensive and then gives other staff the cold shoulder for days.
    So, I have tried the “different communication styles” talk with “Sally” to get her to think about how she approaches her co-workers, but it apparently isn’t working. So, any thoughts on a different tactic? She is up for her 60-day review soon and while she’s not doing anything so wrong that I can justify saying that “This isn’t working,” . . . well, this isn’t working. This team functioned really well before she came on board and now, things are completely off-kilter. Any ideas/thoughts/advice are appreciated. Thanks!

    1. valentine*

      Coach her on accepting and incorporating feedback and that coldness and the silent treatment aren’t options. And no more telling employees to play nice. Even if Sally weren’t someone who enjoys being blunt but demands coddling, further investigation was warranted before chastising others and it doesn’t bode well that no one spoke up about Sally before she literally went crying to you.

    2. Happy Lurker*

      Sally says she’s blunt. Maybe she needs to hear it bluntly. I would bluntly tell her that she is the new one and she needs to listen to everyone else about procedures. That it is a professional environment and not to take corrections personally.
      Clearly, Sally IS an issue and I would consider extending her probation period. Give her one more redirection, but she is probably not going to get better. I would let her go before she causes more unnecessary drama.

  215. Dealing with a Competitive Coworker*

    My coworker comes off as really nice until you hear them gossiping about you. The woman has a tendency to say that you’ve said things that you haven’t. To make matters worse we’re also both trying to get into nursing school. Lately, she’s taken to making up lies to try and hurt my professional/personal reputation. She also keeps trying to help me by telling me how to do things the wrong way. Oh, and she keeps asking about my salary and then bragging her own financial/living situation. I don’t share my salary and have been trying to stay away from her.

    Unfortunately, my desk is right next to hers. I don’t know what to do anymore other than remain uninvolved and focus on school/work. I don’t want to complain to HR or a supervisor because they don’t care. Supervisors pass off duties to the subject matter experts and their trainees. Sadly this woman is training to become a subject matter expert.

    I wish I could say that the culture where I work is perfect. Many people I work with are amazing at their jobs. To make any headway at the organization, you have to be a favorite and a friend of subject matter experts. That isn’t possible for me anymore. I am not the only person that had been targeted by the gossip. I’ve resigned myself to waiting out the next few months until I have enough money/PTO saved so I can take time off for job interviews. Then hopefully, I can quit and work somewhere that I actually like.

    Please tell me this gets better. I’ve tried to be mature about this, but there is no one at my organization that I can go to for help. I’ve made a few friends but I don’t want to bring this up. They all get along with the gossip. She’s one of those people that everyone likes.

    1. Dealing with a Competitive Coworker*

      I forgot to add. At my company, the HR department is only current workplace with hiring, firing, and quick resolutions. They’re notoriously unreliable. At my old job the HR department was amazing. It seems like the more I think about work, the more I want to quit.

  216. FluffingIt*

    Hello,

    Frequent lurker, first time poster. I’m in a conundrum and looking for some advice, for it may be a longer post.

    I’ve taken on a new leadership role and inherited a young team who had been pretty much manager less for 6 months. They had no direction or purpose their output is basic ad-hoc admin, internal events planning and support across an department in the company. All of this is executed as and when they feel its appropriate/convenient for them, with no real urgency, quality or prioritisation. When the work is carried out, the team are often highly and disproportionately praised, as the tasks are usually what no one outside of the team wants to do themselves anyway. In all honesty the work is not great or however. The team want to develop and have hated being perceived as low end administrators but due to the overly supportive environment they have unrealistic perceptions of their own skills, abilities and career paths. The is a strong sense of entitlement around being developed, being able do any course or training they feel they would like, whether relevant to their job or not. There is a general lack of professional or awareness of their own behaviour.

    When I joined it was clear that things had to change and the team was given a new direction and purpose, which is my mangers vision for the department as a whole. I’ve been trying to get the team in the right space to take on different responsibilities by holding workshops, coaching, communicating, aligning work to skills and generally very accessible. I’ve also trialled a few different ways of working such as giving the team space to be autonomous. I’ve given feedback and positive reinforcement as change is scary for some people. I’ve also addressed changes regarding flexibility, line management within the team and quality of output. Things are not improving. Work is being challenged and rejected, left incomplete without any updates as to why, feedback or directive are being routinely challenged, I’m not informed of my own staffs movements and effectively not being treated with any professional courtesy either. I’ve had to take on a lot of the newer work myself as the team is unable to/for not want to take it on. I work over 15 hours most days and at least 5 – 10 hours over the weekends. My social life is null and I’m always tired.

    However HR are now involved as the team have collectively complained about unfair treatment and micromanaging. Even with feedback and 1:1s just before the complaints they’ve informed HR that they don’t feel comfortable in sharing their concerns with me. However based on what was relayed to me via HR, I know exactly who said what because of the feedback sessions, check ins and 1:1s held where they had shared thoughts about the work etc. So they are lying to HR effectively. My manager has been very supportive and is keen to work through this with me as he was aware of some of the issues in the team, work he asked for hasn’t landed or fine so sloppily. If honest, I’m cross about this, which isn’t a good reaction I know. I’ve also reflected, I’ve reviewed all documentation emails etc. Nothing I’ve read aligns with what was reported at all, I’ve continuously offered support and steer when asked. I did recognise that I should have done a few things very differently, in most cases I was overly cautious and too friendly to balance my direct style of delivery. One area of contention is staff movements. I focused on keeping the team happy too much however.

    I also now appreciate that this team cannot meet the goals and objectives set and are regularly failing to meet my expectations. They are not the right team for the work that is now expected by the leadership team. However don’t think I can PIP them out the door, the culture isn’t great with performance management and making difficult decisions. I also cannot keep investing time to coach, especially as they aren’t being committed and engaged participants. This all so stressful and I’m not used to people working like this.

    I appreciate that I’m smarting, so seeking AMA collective intelligence on this. Am I being harsh? What would you do/have you done in this situation? I’m up for suggestions reframing or a general ‘Wise up lecture. ‘

    Just for some context the company is very progressive Tech company, very people and culture focused. Management does a lot to make its staff happy with awards, rewards, a fair bonus policy, flexible working, unmoderated working from home and lots of social and learning development activities etc. Employees are very much encouraged to do what feels right, this means people choose the things they want to do, at the expense of what they should be doing. They’ll attend a learning session rather finish a report that’s due. I’ve come from very different working environment and professionally very outcomes driven. I find the culture refreshing but will admit that it’s also very, very challenging when trying to get things done.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Oh boy! I’m honestly not sure you can fix this situation, at least not without a LOT of backup from executive management.
      It would be one thing if they were at least meeting their larger objectives, albeit, if in a disorganized chaotic manner. They’d just need to tighten the processes.
      But they’re not. And they don’t appear to care. So essentially you’ve got an inmates running the asylum type situation.

      Sorry I don’t have better advice, but I think you need to have a serious discussion w/the executive team about this situation. If this team is actively rejecting the directives and business needs of the company, most likely that team needs to be eliminated and re-built from scratch.

      And as much as “employees are encouraged to do what feels right” sounds awesome, it’s a terrible management philosophy! I’m shocked any company operates like this. Who’s setting operational and financial goals?

      1. FluffingIt*

        Thanks so much for the reply MissDisplaced. It’s really been rattling around my brain this weekend, I the thought that I’m being misrepresented and unfortunately I am a bit of a stewer.

        I also agree with you, I’d definitely like to have a blank slate and rebuild the team myself but I know that getting rid of the current team would not go down well with some of my direct / indirect peers.

        The company, as a whole, is actually very successful and has a proactive leadership team setting objectives etc but I do think the employee management aspect is a real challenge that needs attention. Particularly within the department I’m based in. People are rewarded/celebrated for essentially meeting expectations. I think the real issue is that autonomous flexibility should only be an option when a certain amount of competency is evidenced. To me that is being consistent, providing timely, quality output to the best of abilities, showing initiative, being coachable and having a basic level of professionalism.

        I’ll be having some discreet conversations this coming week, to help me formulate a plan to move forward.

        What would be your approach/plan if you knew that you couldn’t replace the team?

        Thanks again.

  217. FluffingIt*

    + Want to apologise for the epic comment length and typos/missing words, hoping it generally makes sense. Tiredness is my excuse.

  218. Jodie*

    I need to give feedback to an employee whose contract we are not renewing.
    She has been with us for 9 months and in that time, everyone who works directly with her has found her difficult – she rubs everyone the wrong way. She constantly talks about herself and dominates lunch time conversations. Professionally, she will talk about the great gains she is making with her clients and how Wonderful things are working out for her (she is new to this field of work so this comes across to others as arrogant). Personally, she will constantly talk about her horses and how she has a ‘hobby job’ and her husband doesn’t actually want her to work. Although, since she has found out we are not renewing her contract, this has flipped 180° and now she is lamenting that she and her husband are in financial trouble.
    As an employee, I have had to meet with her and a client and in that meeting she put her hand up to the client’s face. She has also spread rumours about her team members (who are long term employees and consistently proven themselves as honest, loyal and trustworthy). She has upset her entire team who struggle to work with her.
    In regards to her day to day duties, she is organised, takes ownership and initiative and her clients enjoy working with her.
    I am new to my position of delivering feedback and managing staff, so any tips to help me tactfully and professionally deliver the messages would be appreciated!:
    1. people struggle to work beside you as you talk down to them despite your limited experience.
    2. You spoke about concerns you had regarding your team members to other team members instead of bringing them to me (your supervisor) to be dealt with. (This is despite my receiving multiple lengthy emails a week from her regarding trivial questions that she would like in depth step by step assistance with). This caused a massive rift across the entire team.
    3. You were unprofessional in a meeting with a client.

    1. valentine*

      Your scripts are spot-on. (I hope they’re going to list her as not eligible for rehire.)

      She put her hand up in a “Stop (in the name of love/Hammer time/collaborate and listen)”/”Talk to the hand” motion?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Stay focused on the behaviors more than the personality. It sounds like she may be proficient at the work itself, but the soft skills are lacking.

      This is where you say thank goodness they’re contract! No obligation to keep them on.

      1. Jodie*

        Perfect – thank you! Yes, it is her soft skills that require development. We are very grateful she is only on contract. Thanks for tour time, much appreciated.

    3. cmcinnyc*

      My only advice would be to reverse the order. Lead w/#3. Being unprofessional w/a client is a big deal even if you’re otherwise a dream to work with, so that’s your big lead. #2 is also major–someone with a great skill set who nevertheless causes chaos and resentment by ignoring protocol, procedure, or hierarchy is not a keeper. And end with oh by the way you are an ass (phrased much more professionally). It’s the most subjective of the three. You don’t want to get derailed by push-back there and then have her feeling that you’re only bringing up #2 and #3 to buttress your “you are an ass” argument.

      1. Jodie*

        Perfect – thank you! Yes, it is her soft skills that require development. We are very grateful she is only on contract. Thanks for tour time, much appreciated.

  219. Mimmy*

    Quick resume question – hopefully someone will see this…

    I’m in the final month or so at an awesome internship in a postsecondary disability services office. The quandary I have is how to describe it on my resume. It wasn’t part of an official degree program and it isn’t paid (quick backstory: it fell into my lap after I’d reached out for networking on a professional listserv).

    Most of my time has been spent observing student intakes (by phone) and presentation of student accommodation requests at weekly case conferences, but I have begun to get more involved in the intakes (I had to drop the case conferences due to my regular job :( ) and am hoping to do more in December. Additionally, I am working on a major project that, if I finish on time, will be of great benefit to the faculty and staff of our part of the university.

    I’m submitting my resume as part of an application to a Masters degree related to this field and would like to have it all submitted ideally this week but definitely by Thanksgiving). Any suggestions on verbiage would be helpful! Thanks!

    1. Avasarala*

      Not clear what you accomplished or what you’re struggling with here specifically?

      Other Experience:
      Internship at XOXO postsecondary disability services office (date -date)
      -observed # daily/weekly student intakes over the phone (and something about how well you did that)
      -presented student accommodation requests at weekly case conferences (to X result)
      -accomplished XYZ major project that was of great benefit to the faculty and staff of our part of the university in ABC way

  220. Heffalump*

    Does anyone have stories of a coworker who isn’t or wasn’t all there? This is mine.

    In my younger days I was working the soda fountain in a restaurant on Fisherman’s Wharf, a touristy area of San Francisco. As you can imagine, things could get hectic. I wasn’t really temperamentally suited to that aspect of the job, but for a number of reasons, there I was.

    There was a waitress there named Holly, who was hands down the ditziest person I’ve ever met. She was the only person to whom I was strongly tempted (more than 1x) to say, “Can’t you do anything right?”

    Every other waitress I worked with during my time there got the knack pretty quickly of taking down the customer’s order and writing a ticket so I correctly understood what the customer wanted. With Holly, 8 times out of 10, critical information would go MIA between her ears and her order pad. I was constantly having to call her back to the window and say, “What does this mean?” and often, her answer would be as cryptic as the original ticket. It went beyond carelessness or inattention. She didn’t seem to have a clue what information was needed on a ticket. Some specific incidents I remember:

    One of her tickets called for a “junior chocolate.” I had to call her back and ask if it was a junior chocolate sundae, a junior chocolate dish of ice cream, or a junior chocolate milkshake. This sort of thing happened all the time.

    Sundaes were always made with vanilla ice cream, and the flavor on the menu (and the ticket) referred to the topping. Ice cream + strawberry topping = strawberry sundae, ice cream + caramel = caramel sundae, ice cream + hot fudge = hot fudge sundae, etc. One night I got a ticket from Holly that just said, “sundae.” It had already not been a great night, and at this point I’d built up a pretty good head of irritation with her. I called her back to the window and, through gritted teeth said, “Holly–WHAT KIND of sundae?”

    “He wants vanilla ice cream on it.”

    We had this arrangement where there was a display of waitresses’ station numbers, and when an order was ready, I’d push a button to light up the appropriate number to alert the waitress. One night Holly kept forgetting to put her station number at the top of her ticket, and I was riding her pretty hard for it. And then a ticket came in like so:

    7 Root beer float

    Naturally, this could only mean that her table had ordered 7 root beer floats, so I made them and put them up. I got a sinking feeling when Holly said, “Why are you making 7 of them?” I showed her the ticket, and it turned out that she had wanted one root beer float–7 was her station number! #%@&*!!! Somehow I managed to avoid throwing them at her head, but it wasn’t easy! I assume that her tickets for the kitchen were no better.

    The restaurant had a 30-day probationary period for new hires, and guess which waitress didn’t make it to 30 days! I recently ran this past a psychology Ph.D., and his take was that she had a learning disability, either drug-induced or inborn. Wherever she is, she’d be in her mid- to late 60s now. For her sake I hope she married a prosperous guy who didn’t mind having an airhead of a wife! And yes, she was blonde!

    1. The Other Dawn*

      Drug-induced or inborn learning disability? The more likely explanation is that waiting tables wasn’t for her.

    2. Lina*

      Sorry? Are you asking people to share stories about people with learning difficulties? wanting anecdotal evidence to support the blonde stereotype, or wanted to talk about women who need men to take care of them?
      Please try to summon a little compassion.

  221. whatchamacallit*

    my previous boss emailed my current boss at some point after I accepted the offer for my current job telling them they should have told them they were hiring me. They were acquaintances so it’s not like they contacted them as a stranger and I admittedly don’t have many details, but is this weird? I found it to be bizarre request.

  222. An Entirely Different Data Analyst With Anxiety*

    Bit late, I know- anyone have advice on cover letters for internal applications? (Or if anyone can direct me to a previous post- tried the search function but there were enough results I wouldn’t be surprised if I’d missed it.)

    Applying for a job in a different department at my Large State University, very similar on paper to my current one but with somewhat more responsibility (and hopefully pay). I’ve worked with two people in that department before (transitioning a function from my office to theirs, not as long-term coworkers) but one I believe has since retired, and I have no idea if the other is involved in the hiring process at all. I’m struggling with whether/how much to refer to that, as well as how to talk about my enthusiasm for the ‘company’ (I do actually believe in the importance of public higher ed, but saying that straight out feels unbearably corny, and I don’t have any particular passion for one department over the other).

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